husband doesn’t like my dedication to my job, which employee is lying, and more

by Alison Green on August 8, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Husband has issues with my dedication to my job and 1-2 work trips a year

I am the manager at a small association, and I have the opportunity to fill the vacant CEO position soon. This promotion would significantly improve our financial situation, allowing us to afford more for our eight-year-old daughter and possibly retire by 55. We have been struggling financially a bit, which is a strain on our relationship.

My job requires travel, including one annual trade show abroad and now a potential second trip for an important convention. The first trip is 11 days long, and the second would be 4 days. However, my husband has mixed feelings about my work and travel. While he says he is proud of me, he also feels I spend too much time working. I do check my emails after hours and participate in board discussions on WhatsApp, but before that, I would just be doom scrolling or watching YouTube.

He is uncomfortable with me being away for what he calls “two weeks” and thinks it is bad for the family. He also worries about my safety in a foreign city. Recently, while he was watching videos with headphones on, I was designing a digital membership card on Canva. He later brought it up as an example of me not wanting to spend time with him, which I found confusing.

I take our daughter to school and pick her up every day. I make dinner 3-4 times a week and handle my share of household chores. We also have a cleaning lady who comes once a week. Despite these efforts, he often invites friends over on weekends when we could spend time together.

He is a great man—loving, hard-working, and a devoted dad who makes our daughter’s school breakfast and lunch every day. However, he recently lost his father and cut ties with the rest of his family, which has made him more clingy. He does not talk about it unless he is drunk, but the issue with my traveling started before this.

I am struggling to understand why my work and travel cause such tension between us. I love him, and I know he loves me, but I feel trapped and exhausted. I am starting to wonder if I would be better off divorced, even though the thought brings me to tears.

Marriage counseling, right away. You’re both coming at this from different perspectives and with different concerns but not understanding the other, and you’re at the point where you’re questioning the marriage. Marriage counseling was made for this. I wish it were a work problem because that would be easier to solve, but it’s a communication and relationship problem, and a pro will be able to help you navigate it.

Also, if the drunkenness is more than a rare occurrence, there’s an additional problem to tackle too — but marriage counseling could be a place where you look at that as well.

2. A C-suite exec recklessly exposed us to Covid

Yesterday, a C-suite leader in a people-facing role came to an in-person, hour-long meeting with me and a few others while visibly sick and coughing, claiming it was “just a summer cold.” She also mentioned that her Covid tests were negative but also that the tests she used were quite old and unreliable. This morning, of course, she tested positive for Covid.

I’ve been trying to be careful lately because I do not want to get Covid again and we are facing a summer surge. Also, when I have been infected in the past, Covid messes up my menstrual cycle for a while. This is particularly concerning because my partner and I are trying to conceive, which no one at my work knows, of course. I mask in crowded public places but I haven’t been masking in our office.

I realize now that I probably should have left the room right away, but I felt enormous pressure to stay, due to the nature of my professional relationship with this leader, her lack of suggesting those uncomfortable leave, and the fact that no one else did. I feel so stupid and cowardly now. I discussed my frustration with a more senior member of my team, but I’m still very upset.

What should I do now? How can I handle similar situations in the future without feeling pressured to stay in a potentially unsafe environment? Do we live in a world where I just need to get over this or I might jeopardize my professional relationships and career?

One thing that became clear early on in the pandemic was that you couldn’t rely on other people to take measures to protect you — you’d have to do it yourself. That remains true. If it’s important to to you to avoid Covid, the only real way to do it is to be willing to assert yourself, even when it feels a little awkward and even where there’s built-in pressure to defer (like meetings with C-suite leaders). What that means in practice: carry masks, put them on in situations like this one, and be willing to say things like:

  •  “I can’t risk getting sick right now so I’m going duck out to my office and call in from there.”
  • “I’m going to run out and grab a mask because I need to be extra safe right now.”
  •  “Would you mind wearing a mask since it’s such a small space?”

Say these things cheerfully and matter-of-factly, and then do what you need to do. If you’re working with reasonable people and you put effort into maintaining warm relationships generally, it shouldn’t be a big deal.

Also: I wrote this column at a different point in Covid, but the principles still apply about asserting yourself in ways that feel a little uncomfortable in service of a larger good.

3. Which employee is lying?

I manage a customer-facing team that answers questions and provides supplies to clients. Two team members (Taylor and Blake) are not excited about their jobs and are not invested in ensuring clients receive the best service possible. They have both participated in training and discussions about expectations. Taylor has a written warning that the next poor customer service interaction will result in termination. Blake would most likely receive a written warning.

Last week a customer complained about the service they received. The customer refused to identify the staff member since they did not want to get them into trouble. Taylor and Blake were the only two working at the desk during the incident. They both said the other one was who interacted with the customer. I don’t think either will admit to the interaction, so how do I address the poor service the client received? And is there a way to escalate discipline for Taylor or Blake?

If you don’t know who was responsible and have no way of finding out, you can’t hold one of them accountable for it — although you can certainly address it generally with both of them by revisiting how you want similar situations handled and asking them to confirm their understanding of that.

But also, given that one of them is lying about what happened, take it as impetus to supervise both of them more closely: find opportunities to observe more often, spot-check work, check in with clients about whether they’re getting what they need and to take their temperature generally, and ask their colleagues for feedback.

After all the retraining and expectation-setting you’ve already done, if you’re not seeing a significant and sustained change you should move things toward a resolution with both as swiftly as you can. And it sounds like the sort of situation where the closer you look, the more problems you’re likely to find, so significantly increasing how much attention you’re paying should speed it all along.

Also, if you can avoid scheduling them together, do that too.

4. “Strong personality”

Years ago, when I was in lower management, a coworker who was entry-level and I clashed. It was a mutual clash of styles and personalities. She complained to our boss, and during a meeting with the three of us, she defended herself by saying, “I have a strong personality.” I didn’t respond to this, but it felt like a cheap excuse to behave like an ass. Is this something people can say to avoid accountability? Or is this a non-excuse?

In contexts like this, it’s often something people say to try to avoid looking more deeply at how they might be contributing to the problem. Without more details about exactly what the issues were with your colleague, I can’t say for sure — but often it’s part of the “that’s just who I am!” school of excusing one’s own behavior.

I’ve always liked this article by Marshall Goldmith called “An Excessive Need to Be Me,” where he points out that a rigid allegiance to “being yourself” can sometimes be pointless vanity, and at odds with actually improving your dynamics with other people.

Related:
my employee identifies proudly as a grump

5. Who can know about discipline meetings?

When an employee is undergoing discipline or a performance improvement plan, what can an employer tell other employees? If the employer has a “need-to-know-only” policy, does the EA scheduling the meetings “need to know” that those meetings are related to discipline?

It’s really up to the employer’s own internal policies. No law prevents them from sharing info with other employees. If their policy restricts the info on a “need to know” basis, it’s still possible the EA scheduling the meetings would fall in that category; depending on how that particular EA manages people’s calendars, they might have access to agendas, or know basic topic in order to prioritize the meeting relative to others, etc.

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  1. Caramel & Cheddar*

    I think the latest numbers are that about 1 in 57 Americans have COVID right now. If you’re both out in the world but hoping to avoid it, to the easiest thing to do is assume you *will* be exposed and that you’re probably coming into contact with multiple people per day who are infected. Plan your precautions accordingly rather than waiting for someone to confirm they have it. (COVID isn’t great for pregnancy either, fwiw.)

    1. Sparqness*

      I am down with COVID right now (almost two years to the day from the first time I caught it), and this new variant is no fun at all. I mask in public, but like the OP not at the office or at my spinning guild, and though the timing isn’t quite right, I was exposed at guild. Tomorrow is two weeks since I started seeing symptoms. It looks like I didn’t infect anyone, thank goodness. But yes, from now on, I’m going to be extremely careful in all the places I haven’t been as careful for the last year or so, because you don’t know who is infectious, and I DO NOT want to go through this a third time. I would be so angry at the sick person who just waved it off like it was nothing. For some people it is, but for people like me, it really, really isn’t.

      1. COVID blows*

        I got COVID in February, 2020. Before anyone knew what it was, or anything like that.

        Due to a variety of factors, I have an extreme case of long COVID. It’s destroyed me, and is getting progressively worse. It’s been 4 1/2 years of slowly dying. I have an excellent team trying to save my life, but I may well still lose this battle.

        And yes, I’m a tiny outlier. But that doesn’t mean I don’t matter, and it doesn’t mean I don’t count. And every time I see people dismiss COVID as nothing, it hurts. And it also doesn’t mean that there isn’t a bad middle between this temporarily sucks and me, and it’s incredibly difficult to know what group you’ll be in which each individual time you get infected.

        1. RC*

          I’m so sorry. We’ve failed so many people over the last 4.5 years. Hoping they figure out some good treatments, but the threat of LC is the main reason I still mask everywhere indoors (even work). I wish I wasn’t usually the only one, and one of the… 7?8? people I know who have/had it this past month got it through an N95 (in prolonged enclosed quarters with an obviously ill coworker who refused to mask or acknowledge he was sick). Ugh.

        2. solidarity*

          solidarity. I have LC too and agree. so many don’t get it. I’ve been to the ER multiple times and had to explain to the Dr what LC is and that I’m not infectious. only positive change is that recently medical professionals have stopped rolling their eyes when I ask them to mask

        3. Panhandlerann*

          My niece got COVID at nine months pregnant, in February 2021, and has been experiencing long COVID since then. I know how much she’s suffered and am sorry you’re going through that, too.

        4. Arrietty*

          I’m so sorry, that is awful. I got a very common, usually minor virus almost 15 years ago and it ruined my health and derailed my life for more than eight years. People often dismiss viruses as less serious than other infections but they can be awful.

          I hope some of the new research into long covid and other post-viral illnesses will be useful to you, soon.

        5. Emikyu*

          I’m so sorry. I’ve had long COVID for almost 2.5 years at this point – not life threatening in my case, but absolutely debilitating. It’s substantially reduced my ability to work and derailed a lot of my future plans (including having kids, which at this point seems unlikely to ever happen at all).

          People like you and me absolutely do matter, and it makes my blood boil when people act like we don’t just because we’re a small percentage of the overall population. I’ve been told to my face that research for long COVID shouldn’t be prioritized because it’s a rare condition anyway. So what? How many people does it take before the collateral damage is no longer acceptable?

          I hope things get better for you somehow – I don’t know what it will take, but whatever it is I hope it happens. Best of luck to you.

          1. Meat Oatmeal*

            You do matter! Everything you’re saying here is right. I’m sorry this is happening to you.

        6. COHikerGirl*

          Long hauler from March 2020 here. There are millions of us. You are absolutely not an outlier. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with that bad of LC.

          If we as a country did disability better, I 100% would have filed for partial disability. Brain fog, fatigue, and more have seriously impacted my personal and professional lives. And I’m on the mild side of LC. I had a mild case of COVID (never hospitalized, never really ran a fever, had SOB and a cough and felt meh for 27 days) and was healthy prior…hiker, runner, mid-30s. And there are a lot of people (especially women) like me out there. It doesn’t need to be severe and you don’t need to have preexisting conditions.

      2. JSPA*

        While I’m not sure the writing is on the wall–a lot of people can become depressed (colloquially or clinically), anxious (ditto) perseverative, catastrophizing, clingy, prickly, self- centered and/or self loathing in the immediate aftermath of a death or an estrangement (let alone both). And coping with alcohol only revs up the process.

        Regardless, the LW almost certainly should stick to her own advancement plan. There’s likely no world where “lots more money and a couple more trips” doesn’t work out better than the alternative.

        The husband clearly does need more support, but the LW can’t be “his only person.” Nor the person he takes his bad feelings out on, or projects his anxieties onto, or blames for his sense of waning connectivity, while hanging with the boys for his relaxation and fun. He’s going to have to work on his issues, then (or concurrently) they can work on their issues. But “don’t worry, we can afford for help every-other-day and take-out while I’m gone” really covers any “holding up one’s end at home” issues.

        And if he’s worried he’ll…drink himself into a coma, cheat with a friend, self-injure in some way, fail to go to work himself, fail to feed and clothe their kid and get her to school, scream at his boss (or some other really bad result) because she’s not there to cushion him from his bad impulses? Then he’s desperately in need of outside help. And he could eventually do whatever that bad thing is, even if she does nothing but stay home and hold his hand.

      3. Introvert girl*

        The new variant is really bad. I had Covid in June but tested negative. Here in Europe the doctors no longer recommend testing as there are too many false negatives. I lost 1/4 of my hair and am still losing. I’m also exhausted, two months later. And everything hurts. I’m still managing to work normally but need a lot of micro breaks. Covid really isn’t just a bad cold. OP take care of yourself.

      4. Analyst*

        Immunocompromised and I hear you. But don’t forget a huge proportion of covid cases are asymptomatic and symptomatic people start spreading before they show symptoms. It all stinks

        1. Aggretsuko*

          Yeah, the one time I got it, I was basically tired for 3/4 of the day (I note I’d been doing exhausting activities all weekend so this didn’t seem out of the ordinary) and after I felt better THAT DAY, I checked out of paranoia. Too late, I probably infected everyone I came into contact with that day and I infected elderly friends, having no idea. SIGH.

          I was totally fine after that, except continuing to test positive for a full ten days. I masked around everyone and took heavy precautions to not eat around people and barely take a sip of water–my job literally won’t let me out of the office for any reason right now–and nobody else caught it from me.

      5. Dek*

        I feel like hobby groups are going to be the rough spots. My Dad just got back from a guitar…convention/gathering thing. He didn’t get covid (afaik), but several people there did. They traced ground zero to a specific jam session room that folks had been in for several hours. Small room, close groups from all over the country, and singing is probably a pretty good recipe for a spread.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          For some reason this really bums me out. Just a bunch of chill dudes trying to jam > Covid. Just a bunch of chill people trying to craft > Covid. Ugh I’m so tired

          1. Dek*

            I’m grateful my Dad didn’t catch it, but it really does just sting. The group has lost a few key members over the past few years (not to Covid, just…things. Horrifically, one passed away *at* the con a few years back from a heart attack). My Dad showed me a beautiful video of everyone gathered outside by a memorial for one singing “Here Comes The Sun” and I almost started crying.

            It’s such a wonderful, nerdy thing and my Dad looks forward to it every year (and even helped put it on for a while), and it just feels like every year there’s something else chipping away at that.

        2. Arts Akimbo*

          Speaking of hobby groups, DragonCon is right around the corner… :( Potential superspreader event every year.

      6. Jeanine*

        I am so sick and tired of people acting like covid is over, because it’s not. It is in a huge surge, we got it for the 2nd time in the beginning of July. Mask up and take care of yourself, no matter WHAT anyone around you says. If people at work don’t like it, too bad. I wish they would stop with the ridiculous mask bans in some states and make people wear them everywhere again. It’s the only way this is ever going to get under control.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          I have some good news for you! There is a new vaccine in trials that may be able to substantially stop the spread of covid. It is a nasal vaccine, so it goes specifically where infections start and spread from (throat and nose tissue), and in animal trials so far it’s very good at preventing infection and it’s ALSO very good at preventing spread, unlike our current vaccines.

          Now, given the miasma of nonsense around vaccines, will there be good uptake? I don’t know. But this will be a really good way to protect yourself, and a really good way to protect those around you, if it passes human trials with the same efficacy.

          Link in reply.

        2. STAT!*

          Wow, mask bans. Unbelievable. Can’t wait for our reactionary culture warriors in Australia to start advocating for the same thing.

    2. Nesta*

      COVID cases are high right now and on the rise.

      I am so heartened to see folks who have been masking in crowded spaces, even if they gave up masking elsewhere. I am one of a perhaps small group who still masks everywhere. If I’m in the office, I wear a mask and I don’t eat around my colleagues. If I’m in the store, I wear a mask. Public transportation, I wear a mask. I wear a mask if I’m out doing something for fun. I rarely visit people inside without a mask.

      I realize that my level of precautions isn’t for everyone, and that’s okay, but I definitely encourage people to wear a mask in public spaces at least, including our offices, gyms, and stores. I have experienced coworkers coming in, knowing they have COVID, without a mask. I’ve witnessed coworkers sick with a “mystery illness” taking off masks in their office with the door open. I’ve known people who knew they had COVID, but still went to parties, on trips, out to run errands, and just out to leisure activities, also without a mask.

      I know wearing a mask is not really fun. I wear an n95 mask for like 9 hours a day, most days of the week. But I just want to take advantage of Caramel & Cheddar’s excellent comment to emphasize that for people out there who want to avoid COVID, masking is going to help you. An attempt at a zero COVID life might not be what you want to try, but it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. Reducing your risk by wearing a mask to the office, the gym, the store, or non-food based leisure activities is going to help! And it’s going to make life a little more accessible for those who cannot afford to get sick, for health or other reasons.

      1. Michelle Smith*

        Adding onto this to say that COVID isn’t the only illness I don’t want to pick up from other people. If you are sick at all, regardless of whether you’re testing positive for COVID, PLEASE MASK OR STAY HOME. None of us with compromised immune systems or even relatively healthy ones want your cold/flu/norovirus either.

        1. I Have RBF*

          This.

          Not only is Covid surging, but there is also RSV and even the common cold and flu, which can be very bad for immune compromised folks. If people are really dumb enough to go to work sick (or don’t have sick time), then the least they can do is wear a damned mask! Even if it’s “just allergies”, a mask helps keep pollen out of your nose.

          1. Long Hauler (Not the Trucker Kind)*

            Ah yes, the tripledemic of COVID, RSV, and flu. It’s getting to be that time of year. I can’t wait to get my flu shot and as soon as there’s a new COVID booster, I’m getting one!

          2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

            My concrete suggestions for LW:

            * see if the office can institute a “if you’re coughing or sneezing for any reason, wear a mask” policy
            * see if the office can stock all meeting rooms with a box of masks, so it’s easy to wear them when face-to-face
            * carry a mask in the workplace yourself, even if you’re not wearing it all the time
            * like you mentioned, step out of a meeting if someone’s coughing/sneezing and you don’t have your mask with you
            * carry an unused mask or two, and present it to the person coughing or sneezing and say “Here’s your mask” (this is the phrasing I use when people are coming into our house without being masked already)

            (I am a cancer patient and therefore very Covid-cautious; my partner caught Covid for the first time this past June despite masking nearly everywhere, and it’s taken them an entire month to get back to near-baseline health. We’re not sure what else is going to unexpectedly pop up for them. I think I managed to either avoid it or get an asymptomatic case because we got them isolated in the house fairly quickly, and we had the space to isolate.)

        2. SpaceySteph*

          This is the part that is wild to me about the letter. Like yeah the manager in question tested negative for Covid but they were still sick with…. something contagious. If it hadn’t been covid, is it ok they spread cold/flu/RSV to the whole office? No!!

          1. Kyrielle*

            Heck, I have horrible allergies and when it could just be the allergies…I mask. Because who knows if it’s something else, or even if it’s _classic_ allergies, what if I am coming down with something and don’t know that yet? Coughing/sneezing means anything I might have that can be transmitted via aerosols or droplets is more likely to be transmitted, and no one needs any of that!

        3. Alex*

          This although wherever possible stay at home and don’t think you are safe to go out and about simply because you have a piece of fabric over your nose and mouth. In many ways it may be beneficial to outlaw Covid tests in the vast majority of circumstances given the amount of people who seem to think it’s completely acceptable to spread any virus as long as it isn’t Covid.

        4. Lady Danbury*

          This! I recently had a respiratory illness (not covid, lol) and it was no fun. I would not want to transmit that to anyone else at work or at home (and fortunately didn’t). And that’s without factoring in that illnesses can have a wide range in severity, even with people who don’t have a compromised immune system.

        5. Argiope Aurantia*

          Prior to COVID and the normalization of everyday people wearing N95 masks, I was sick All. The. Time. Colds, the flu, sinus infections, ear infections, upper respiratory gunk, you name it. I lost my voice every spring and early winter from coughing so much. I got pleurisy more than once. If I could string together a week of “good” days, it was a miracle.

          But now…

          The last time I have ever had anything other than a bad case of seasonal allergies was February 2020. And *that* was because a co-worker came into the office every single day they were very, very sick and sat on the other side of the fabric wall separating our cubes coughing and coughing and coughing and coughing (he was directly across from me, so we were facing each other all day).

          I know the timing is all “Eek, was it COVID?” but my symptoms were the exact same as any flu I have ever had, and we weren’t in a COVID hot spot yet [that would come a couple of months later].

          But masking and extreme distancing have given me a new lease on life. I had no idea what it felt like to *not* be sick. I used to think that was normal.

          1. Zee*

            I used to be sick all the time too. Constant sore throats, mainly. Now I only get sick when I start to get lax about masking.

      2. Lorraine*

        Solidarity here. I’m the only one still masking at work and it sucks! Recently it meant being the only one masking at a work retreat, and bringing a travel kettle and backpacker meals to eat in my room during breaks when meals weren’t outside (some were). I also bring a travel air filter for my hotel rooms and try to find hotels with windows that open. But sometimes it also means masking for the better part of 20 hours of in person meetings and then travel delays.
        (Hot tip: Denver and San Francisco airports both have outdoor lounges if you need a quick mask break (yes you can still get it outside, but sometimes you need a brief relief from the earache!))

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I probably had it 2 weeks ago. Tests were negative, but I was in contact with multiple people who tested positive and symptoms were a match. Once I knew I was sick, I isolated or wore a mask. But there were several days prior to that point where I was probably contagious, and I did go to work, etc.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        FYI, when I had covid in November, I was negative on an antigen test and only caught it with a home pcr test. I know two people who had the same experience in the last few months (one just last week). They are not cheap, but if you can afford to keep one on hand, they can be useful.

        This isn’t directed just at little teapot, but if you are testing with an antigen test, don’t rely on only one test. Test again two days later. If you have been exposed and have developed covid but don’t have symptoms (which is a good percentage of cases these days), the antigen tests arent as good at catching it. I saw a cnn article that said that taking only one test caught it only about 9% of the time if you are positive but asymptomatic, a second test two days later caught it about 60% of the time, and third test two days after that caught it only about 75% of the time. So if you care about whether you have covid, know that you might not have symptoms, and if you know you’ve been exposed, start testing on days 3-5 and test multiple times spaced days apart.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          I did 2 tests, several days apart. Both negative. After that, I just stayed home until I felt better.

        2. Dek*

          The really sucky thing is that the tests are $10 each and the government doesn’t do the free ones anymore. So it’s like…I have tests, but I don’t want to use them unless I think it’s definitely covid (I spent a bit of cash constantly testing for something that wound up being strep)

          I caught covid for the first time a few months back, and oddly enough the symptom that made me test for it was chills. I took the…whatsitcalled that’s supposed to help keep it mild, and wound up with a nasty rebound a few days later.

          1. LilBlaster*

            Fully agree, they need to set expectations and be more intentional about how/when they are spending time together. My spouse and I take turns asking each other out on dates and have a shared calendar for family stuff. We did that after a lot of arguments similar to the OP’s, and we also did counseling to stop talking past eachother.
            Something our counselor would probably say is that they’re with coming from a loving place. She wants to provide for the family, he wants to spend quality time. That’s not a bad place to be coming from.

          3. Reluctant Mezzo*

            Paxlovid is known for the ‘double tap’, which sucks but that med still helps.

        3. Cardboard Marmalade*

          I wasn’t aware that there was a home pcr test. Any recs on a brand name or where to find them? Last time I had COVID (late summer 2022) I felt terrible but had gotten a bunch of false positives from home tests, even though I was using at least 2 or 3 different brands. When I finally dragged myself to a testing location for a pcr, that was when it was finally confirmed. So frustrating.

          1. Almost Academic*

            We use Lucira tests for this – can buy off of amazon, I believe. Pricier (about $25 per test) but way more accurate for detection, so we use when we really need to know (e.g. before visiting immunocompromised relatives). They also have a combined Covid and Flu version that is great for winter.

          2. JB (not in Houston)*

            None of them are cheap, so I hate to say I recommend them, but there are 3 brands I know of. Lucira is a one-use test, so it’s good for testing multiple people at the same time, and it’s easy to use. But since Pfizer bought it, the specificity (the accuracy of a negative result) is something like 88%. Otoh the sensitivity (accuracy of positive) is, I think, 100%. Each test is around $40.

            Metrix tests requires you to buy a reader that’s $50. Each test is around $25, so once you’ve bought the reader, it is cheaper to use than Lucira. But it’s a little finicky to use and has some parts to assemble that could be hard for someone with arthritis.

            3eo is the newest test I’ve seen. It also requires a reader. It’s reader is a lot more expensive than the metrix (you get a starter kit with tests and reader for $195), but individual tests are a little cheaper (2 for $40ish). It’s instructions are a little unintuitive, and the test swab is an uncomfortable hard plastic. They say that their specificity is in the mid 90s, so more accurate than Lucira, but I haven’t used either one with a known infection, so I don’t have any personal experience.

            Side note, for antigen tests, Walgreens now sells a combo flu/covid antigen test (brand name Osom). I know nothing about it or how accurate it is, but I plan on picking some up for the winter flu season.

            1. SpaceySteph*

              With regard to the accuracy for negative/positive… This seems to be a common source of confusion in that people either think a test is universally fallible or universally infallible. The tests work by detecting presence of X at a certain concentration.

              If it detects X (positive), then X was present. You can generally trust a positive. (Some exceptions occur if there are cross sensitivities, such as the home ovulation test will be positive for ovulation if you are already pregnant, due to cross-sensitivity with the hormones. I am not aware of any covid tests having this problem however).

              If it doesn’t detect X (negative), it may because there’s no X, but also may be because there’s a little bit of X but not enough to show positive. You can’t always trust a negative. If you get a negative home covid test, you may very well still have covid.

              Honestly I think home covid tests are not a good thing because they are so often not used correctly (both in terms of you gotta get a realllll deep swab there and also people don’t interpret the test results properly). If you’re sick, even if covid test is negative, its still better to take precautions.

              1. JB (not in Houston)*

                I’m not sure if you’re talking to me about that because I clearly don’t think they are universally fallible or infallible?

                I don’t agree that covid tests are not a good thing–as with any other tool, they aren’t useful if not used correctly, but they are useful if they are used correctly. If you mean home pcr tests specifically, there’s no room for interpretation. The machine tells you yes or no. And it also tells you how far up to stick the swab. Yes, some people still won’t use it correctly, and yes, you should still take precautions because no test is 100% on negative results, but it’s still better than nothing. That’s especially true for asymptomatic cases because a positive test would be the only way that a person would know they have it and that they need to take it easy for a few days.

                1. Little Lady, Big Stick*

                  I think they’re GREAT because a friend took a test before we had lunch to prove her symptoms were allergies, and she had Covid. Would’ve ruined two weeks of my life!

              2. Saving PDFs Not Lives*

                Thank you for saying this! There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding out there about how the tests work.

                I think a pregnancy test is a good analogy, because a negative might mean you’re not pregnant, OR might mean that your level of the tested hormone isn’t high enough to register on the test *yet*. Basically if you see a positive, you’re positive. If you see a negative, wait and test again.

          3. Mask up, fight back*

            I have metrix—tests are $25 and the reader is $50ish at the moment. Delivery is pretty quick in the US. Takes 30 minutes to run each test and it has to be plugged in while running. Another option is the plus life dock. I don’t know as much about that—I know the dock is more expensive upfront but the tests are cheaper (and I think there are some discounts available on the dock). You can also get tests for other illnesses from plus life. However, it ships from outside the US and I’ve heard it takes longer to arrive, especially if there are delays with customs.

    4. 12345*

      I had a mild case a few weeks ago; symptoms appeared when I was coincidentally starting a new medication, so the only reason I went to urgent care was because I thought my low-grade fever (99F) was an adverse reaction. Urgent care doc didn’t even want to test me until we both noticed red, non-rashy blotches on my arms. I am KICKING MYSELF because I don’t know how many people I exposed during the time I thought I wasn’t sick. I HATE saying it, but there’s NO WAY to tell who’s sick and irresponsible, who’s asymptomatic, who has “improved symptoms” but is still contagious, and who’s swearing up and down their symptoms are allergies and they don’t “need” a test. Assuming you will be exposed and planning precautions accordingly is unfortunately the best way to go forward. Again, HATE saying it, but we screwed up early enough in the pandemic that there aren’t any other good options.

      1. Sorrischian*

        I’ve mocked the ‘it’s just allergies’ crowd myself, and then, to my shame, I got complacent and ended up as one of them. We had a big pollen spike, so of course I had a runny nose, intermittent cough, and a bit of headache for a few days. Same symptoms I get for a few weeks every summer. Definitely just allergies, right? Except several of my coworkers had covid around the same time, I tested just to be cautious … and came up positive.

        So now I don’t know if I was asymptomatic at the same time as my allergies flared up, if I mistook covid for allergies, or what. I do know I feel horrible about exposing my coworkers but it’s too late to fix it.

        1. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

          I mask almost everywhere, and that’s partly because I really don’t want to risk getting covid again, and partly because I have a chronic cough left over from when I did have covid. The cough itself isn’t infectious, but it would make me more likely than average to spread covid or any other respiratory infection, if I got one.

          A useful idea I saw on social media: it’s never too late to start masking again. We don’t have time machines, so we can’t usefully decide to mask last month, but not having masked yesterday or last week doesn’t mean you can’t mask now.

          1. Little Lady, Big Stick*

            Your chronic cough might be a neurological, habitual “tic” that’s treatable through a brief course of medication. My brother had this a couple years back. Cleared up quickly, but couldn’t tell you what he took. I just know it’s a common thing.

      2. Aggretsuko*

        That’s what my therapist said to me about my exposing other people. I literally didn’t have any reason to think I had it, or even that I had any kind of cold. She said it’s impossible to avoid now.

    5. Squidward*

      I just recovered from a bout of COVID and was absolutely useless (read: lethargic and foggy) for a full week. Went back to work with a mask as recommended for another few days and was promptly told by my manager that he would have been at work maskless, building up the team’s immunity. This is a guy I generally respect and have a fairly easy relationship with, but holy crap I had no response to give other than “just trying to do my best!” Flabbergasted.

      1. Bast*

        I’ve heard this new strain is particularly bad and spreading so quickly in part because the symptoms look so innocent (if you have symptoms, that is). My boss just recovered not too long ago and his only real symptom was lethargy. The first day wasn’t too bad, and he figured he just didn’t sleep well the night before, but it got increasingly worse over the next couple of days and he figured he better look into it. He ran through the whole gamut (flu, Lyme Disease test, etc) before taking a Covid test and figuring out it was Covid.

        1. Squidward*

          I had a headache Sunday night and woke up lethargic on Monday. Had a mild fever through like Wednesday. That was it – truly it was the lethargy that made me get tested after a couple of days. Awful.

        2. Kyrielle*

          I slept 16-18 hours the first two days I had anything I was sure were covid symptoms. I had to be woken up to take my paxlovid. But it got better after the first couple of days on that, so.

      2. Nesta*

        My god, I would never be able to look at that person the same way again. Not only is he bragging about how he would try to infect others, but he is, in my opinion, hinting that sick days aren’t a thing he believes in. Maybe hoping that you will remember this next time you are feeling ill and drag yourself in.

        I wish that it was possible to live an entirely separate existence from these guys.

        1. Squidward*

          Yeah it was insult to injury after I had covered for him a few days prior on the literal first day I was able to stay awake for more than a couple of hours at a time. It was supposed to be a quiet day, and instead I had to pick up some critical work requiring actual brainpower because it was the freaking Crowdstrike apocalypse and he couldn’t get online from where he was as a result.

          1. Nesta*

            When I tell you that my jaw dropped reading this comment, it is not an exaggeration. What an awful time for you to have to cover for him!

    6. Lorax*

      Re: “Strong Personality,” there’s a quote I’ve always liked from Downton Abby’s Dowager Countess Lady Grantham:

      Lady Rosamund Painswick: “You know, mama, that I must always say what I think.”
      Lady Grantham: “Why? No one else does.”

      Having a “strong personality” is 110% not an excuse to behave badly or refuse to change work practices.

    7. MCMonkeybean*

      I’m gonna use obnoxious caps lock because I think this is important and I’ve not seen anyone online discussing it:

      **YOU CAN GET A BOOSTER AFTER ONLY 4 MONTHS NOW INSTEAD OF 6!!**

      I never saw this publicized, only noticed that when signing up for my vaccine in March the one qualifying question was “have you had a covid vaccine in the last 4 months.” I then confirmed with the person administering the shot.

      This was very exciting for me personally because I had an international trip planned in April and a big convention coming up at the end of August and I thought I would have to choose which one to be freshly vaccinated for, but thankfully I get to be boosted just before both.

      If it’s been more than 4 months, then right now is a great time to get boosted! Protect yourself from the current surge and then you can boost again just in time to visit family for Christmas.

      1. MCMonkeybean*

        The CDC is only actively promoting 4 months for people 65+ but so few people are bothering with boosters at all now that there does not seem to be risk of shortage, so it’s not *required* that you be older than 65. So if you are worried and want to make sure you’re protected in this surge I really recommend getting boosted ASAP.

      2. Katara's side braids*

        Asking here because I can’t find a clear answer online: for those of you in the US who have gotten boosted 6 or fewer months from your last dose, did your insurance cover it or do they only cover 1 booster a year? I know it probably varies by plan, but just trying to get a general feel for how accessible this is. I really need to call my own insurance to clarify, but I’ve been putting it off for reasons that will be obvious to anyone who has ever had to do the same.

        1. Nesta*

          I got boosted this last time at just around 6 months, possibly a couple of weeks under. I had two huge, important things coming up in my life and cases were higher, so I made an appointment. At first, the person told me I wasn’t eligible and then the pharmacist stepped in and told me I was, and they took care of it.

          My partner who was living elsewhere was rejected at the pharmacy without explanation and didn’t feel he could advocate for himself based on their response. His insurance told him it would be covered.

          So, if at first you don’t succeed, you might just try a different place, but my insurance covered it. It was more about agreeable staff.

        2. RC*

          I first got the newest vax in November, and then boosted in April (mid-30s, none of the usual “pre-existing conditions”). I was super worried my insurance wouldn’t cover it but it ended up being totally fine. But yes YMMV depending on the plan probably, because our healthcare system sucks butt. Good luck!

    8. Salsa Your Face*

      Three weeks ago I went to a social event with a group of friends. Within a few days of the event, we realized that half the group, literally split by who was sitting where, had developed covid. I was in the group who escaped it, and I thought I was in the clear. Nope. I have covid right now, picked up somewhere else. It’s *everywhere* right now.

    9. Anon for this moment*

      Sending a big hug across the airwaves to those who are sick now or dealing with long covid.

      I mask everywhere where I am with other people, both indoors and out, but I am LIVID that the Nassau County legislature has just passed an asinine mask ban. These &@#$%@#$@s are busy using fear of crime and fear of political protests (and perhaps just enjoyment of cruelty) to frighten people who care about their health, others’ health, and public health generally out of wearing masks.

      I will continue to mask and hope that their milquetoast “medical condition” exception will be interpreted to cover me, but it makes me unnecessarily anxious to be told I’m breaking the law by wearing a mask in public. Just shoot me.

    10. DinoGirl*

      True. Also the number of positive Covid tests that started with “it’s just allergies” or “my test was negative..” I so wish people would take responsibility to mask if they insist on being in public, but as Alison said, we cannot. I was recently pregnant and carried a pack of masks with me. I did occasionally pull one out in meetings where it was evident someone was ill, but in my workplace it’s not uncommon enough to be terribly remarkable to do so

  2. EchoGirl*

    #1 — For what it’s worth, that seems like a pretty average amount of travel. I guess I can see how one 11-day trip might feel like a lot when it’s all at once, but 15 days total out of the year is lower than a lot of jobs that involve travel.

    To be clear, that’s not to say OP should raise it that way with the husband. But I did want to mention it in case, for instance, this is making OP wonder if their travel is excessive.

    1. RCB*

      Exactly, this is not a lot of travel for any job, let alone a high level job like OP#1 has, so hubby is being particularly weird (manipulative/whiny/unreasonable) here.

      So many women are manipulated by their spouses into giving up great jobs because it’s a control thing, and then the spouse leaves and the woman has no money, work history, or anything else to fall back on, please do not allow yourself to be one of them. Alison is absolutely right, marriage counseling is the only option here, but I hate to say it, the writing is on the wall, you need to start making some plans. DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR JOB!

      1. Extremely anonymous*

        My husband was pushing me to retire early. I agreed on a date. Five months before I was going to submit paperwork, he killed himself. It was awful to be grieving my husband whole thinking I am so glad I didn’t do what he wanted me to do.

          1. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

            OP1 LW1 #1 You might find Al-Anon, which is for the loved ones of alcoholics, helpful. They’re free, there are often multiple meetings on different days of the week throughout a city, and even if your husband isn’t an alcoholic, you’ll spend the time reaffirming that his actions are not your fault or your responsibility.
            this job sounds fantastic. go for it.

        5. Sleve*

          I’m so sorry anon, that kind of internal conflict during such a loss is terribly distressing. I wish you all the best in your healing process.

      2. Fraggled*

        While this does happen, we can’t know if hubby is being weird here and I think that might be a little harsh to assume.

        What I’m hearing is that even when she’s home she’s not really there because outside of work she spends her time doom scrolling, watching YouTube, and answering emails/WhatsApp messages.

        It sounds like hubby misses her and has possibly become concerned she is disinterested in the marriage, having an affair, doesn’t love him anymore or whatever and has that anxiety comes out as “please don’t leave me for 11 days” and now apparently he’s drinking more more to cope which is another can of worms.

        In defense, OP picks on the smallest infractions such as he was wearing headphones at a particular moment he made a comment to justify her confusion.

        There are many things I think both OP and hubby have been avoiding in their marriage and I sincerely hope they go for marriage counseling and lay it all out on the table.

        Especially since they have a child who will witness more than they know, they should work hard to show the kid that even if it doesn’t work out for them they can still resolve their conflict amicably.

        1. Snow Globe*

          I don’t agree with this. We only have what was in the letter to go on, and the husband might have a different perspective, but I think the point was that (1) husband complains when she is doing work but not when she’s mindlessly scrolling through her phone, so the complaint is less about time spent “together” and more about not liking her doing work and (2) he complains about that even when he is occupied doing other things.

          1. umami*

            I tend to wonder whether it’s a chicken/egg thing. She is preoccupied at home, whether with scrolling or working, so he occupies himself with something else, which she sees as him being preoccupied, so she continues doing other things and says it’s because he’s the one who is preoccupied. I say that because my husband does something similiar – he’ll get a work text and respond to it, but then get distracted by something else on his phone and start scrolling, time passes, then I get on my phone while I wait for him to finish, then if I say ‘are you done, let’s do something together’, he’ll say, ‘oh, I was just on my phone because you were’. *sigh*

            But it does seem that the focus on travel is a bit weird, maybe he’s nervous about being left that long as a sole parent to their child? IDK. The travel and the time apart when they are both home feel like two different issues.

            1. Clisby*

              Maybe I’m misreading the letter, but it sounded to me like the LW already takes the 11-day trip and only the 4-day trip would be something new.

              “My job requires travel, including one annual trade show abroad and now a potential second trip for an important convention. The first trip is 11 days long, and the second would be 4 days. “

          2. Antilles*

            Not the husband from the letter, but I might be able to explain the phone thing based on our own experience.
            When my wife is scrolling on her phone, even though she isn’t actually looking at me, she’s still mentally there in terms of being willing to chit-chat, making jokes, talking about stuff she’s scrolling through, etc. And we can interact even if I’m also listening to a podcast or watching TV or scrolling my own phone – I might appear to be “occupied” doing other things but I’m really not.
            When one of us is working, we tend to get really focused and not want interruptions. So even though we’re physically located in the same house (or even the same room), the person who’s working is mentally 20 miles away.

            1. owen*

              oh that’s a really helpful viewpoint and makes a bunch of sense to me, thank you for posting it!

            2. Boof*

              Yea obviously the husband somehow noticed they were working and noticed enough that they remembered it and brought it up later – either it’s because LW acts differently when working at home (maybe LW does have to work on being more available at times / dedicated “home/no work” times), or their husband assumes they are inaccessible and wanted to interact but didn’t (then LW just needs to clarify that it’s totally ok to interrupt them and husband has to believe it/get out of that habit, but again, that means LW has to be just as responsive while working at home after hours as when scrolling around on youtube), or their husband is weirdly controlling of LW and it’s a power trip. Somehow I’m really not getting the third option vibes from the letter but I know it’s a general possibility/thing that happens sometimes, just wouldn’t jump straight to that conclusion here. My sense is LW’s husband isn’t feeling a connection they want and don’t know how to fix it / isn’t articulating it well, and I agree marriage counseling is one way of working it out (though personally, I get exhausted and frustrated just attempting to find/arrange/pay for / judge any counseling so I’ve only ever managed to do it when things were really bad / sometimes I’m not sure it’s worth it if just a few conversations will fix the problems and both people are actually wanting to have said conversations)

            3. Not A Girl Boss*

              I agree with this take.
              I have a job where I have to be available for calls/texts on off hours and weekends, and it really upsets my husband. Not for himself, but on my behalf. He say she can see me getting more and more wound up as I work on those work tasks, and then I get in bed feeling anxious and lay awake reading. On nights I don’t get bothered as much by work, the ‘doomscrolling’ time results in me getting more and more relaxed and mentally available to connect with him, and my bedtime is less anxiety filled.

          3. jasmine*

            We only have LW’s perspective. It’s a leap to suppose we understand the dynamics of the marriage from the letter alone.

            1. Nicole Maria*

              Right, and Alison is so clear that she’s not a huge fan of people speculating on anything outside of what the letter writer said – that’s not what these comments are meant for.

          4. Also-ADHD*

            Yeah, that’s how I read it, though I might color it with my own past situations. My husband was like this at one point (just the work reactions, not the other stuff) and money was also tight, he hated his job, etc. so work was a bigger trigger for him than other stuff.

        2. Great Frogs of Literature*

          What I primarily see in this letter (aside from the travel stuff, which in my circles would not be an unreasonable amount of travel to ask your spouse to deal with, while acknowledging that it’s inconvenient for your shared responsibilities, but I’ll acknowledge that norms vary widely) is that they have a disconnect about what “together as a family” means.

          To OP, if Husband is looking at a screen and has headphones in, they may be passively hanging out, but they aren’t engaging with each other, and it doesn’t matter if she’s reading on her phone or watching her own video, or doing a small work task. That’s a reasonable assumption, and I don’t think she’s picking on a “small infraction” so much as pointing out that he already wasn’t paying attention to her. To Husband… I don’t know. I suspect that her working while she’s home feels different than her watching videos while she’s home… or possibly he was already unhappy with the dynamic where everyone is on their own device and not interacting, and the work stuff has just somehow become the face of that.

          Regardless, I agree that this is a marriage counseling situation.

          1. PurpleShark*

            I am seeing another issue altogether. I think this isn’t a situation where he is angry/irritated that she is not present. I think he is jealous of her position at the company and her success. She has the means to provide a better life with her promotion to a pretty sweet position and in contrast, he is likely sad and depressed with his father’s passing and inability to provide this opportunity for his family. The drinking is a symptom of depression so is his negativity regarding her job. That is my take.

            1. PurpleShark*

              I think marriage counseling possibly yes, but more importantly, the isolation and grief (he pushed his family away and is clinging to her) indicates a need for individual counseling.

            2. KitKat*

              This is possible. It’s also possible it’s not this.

              We really have no way of knowing, and these comments illustrate that the surface circumstances can apply to a whole range of possible underlying dynamics.

              It really would be best for LW and her husband to work through this with a professional who can help them figure out what the deeper issues are and some strategies to work on them.

              1. jasmine*

                +1

                Lots of fanfic happening in the comments. This is why you should never share details on your relationships irl LOL (except with people you trust)

            3. MigraineMonth*

              It sounds like hubby is currently grieving his own father and possibly the rest of his family (since he’s cut contact). It also sounds like he has trouble opening up and expressing emotions when not drunk, and that he’s been irritable and “clingy”.

              I don’t know if there’s strong evidence that he’s jealous of OP’s job/success, but it definitely sounds like he’s going through a tough time, quite possibly depression and/or substance abuse. He could almost certainly use some extra support that doesn’t rely on OP dropping everything else: a therapist, grief support group, men’s group (one of the non-shitty ones), religious counselor, etc.

              1. EJC*

                Being “drunk” more than once in a blue moon when you have a young child is really not okay, and definitely indicative of a substance use issue.

        3. Not on board*

          I think you have to go by what the OP is telling you. You may or may not be right, but there’s no point in creating a different narrative.
          – the husband was critizing her for working while he’s got headphones on
          – he complains at the lack of one-on-one time but instead of using the weekend to get that, he invites people over
          – he comes across as extremely controlling – he’s using guilt to manipulate the OP into working less, and not taking a job that would improve their finances significantly
          – it is possible that the OP’s husband has issues with her success – a lot of men do, unfortunately
          Marriage counselling for sure, but also, the OP can start by making plans to do things one-on-one. It sounds like husband has headphones on, she starts working, he sees she’s working, so he keeps the headphones on – or vice versa. It’s an endless loop. Making a commitment to just being together for some evenings without other distractions would be a good start. Depending on the husband’s motivations, counselling might help, or divorce might be the right option for OP. It’s frustrating but they have to communicate.

          1. Annony*

            I think you are also reading into the letter and making assumptions. I don’t get a controlling vibe from the description. It’s possible but it is equally possible that he is simply expressing his unhappiness. They need to talk and figure out what they each want and how to meet each other’s needs or if that isn’t possible.

        4. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Hubby isn’t really present either if he is on his headphones. He invites friends over on weekends when they could be together. He’s not making an effort to engage her. She shouldn’t have to make all the effort to be available, it takes two.

          Plus the whole recent death of a parent plus cutting off his family. Something is up. The complaints about the job are most likely just the symptom not the actual issue with husband.

          Definitely marriage counseling to hopefully find out what is really going on. Because the letter talks about things they do for their daughter and how they care for the house, but not a lot about them and what they have in common other than a house and a kid.

        5. Rob Moss Mob Boss*

          “What I’m hearing is that even when she’s home she’s not really there because outside of work she spends her time doom scrolling, watching YouTube, and answering emails/WhatsApp messages.” but he spends weekends with his friends instead of her – so i do not see your point.

      3. I can read anything except the room*

        “Marriage counseling is the only option here, but I hate to say it, the writing is on the wall, you need to start making some plans.”

        Marriage counseling is unlikely to succeed if LW enters it with a forgone conclusion that the marriage is already over.

        1. Orv*

          Everyone I’ve known who has gone to marriage counseling has ended up getting divorced. I think the success rate is pretty low.

          1. Argiope Aurantia*

            I went to marriage counseling knowing ahead of time that I wanted out of the relationship. I needed my now-ex to be the one to decide to end things because, otherwise, he would have gone full scorched-earth on me.

            As it was, he got our business and our retirement savings. I got to keep my own house (that I had purchased long before I even met him).

            He, too, hated when I traveled for work or did anything with co-workers during non-work hours. Happy hour to celebrate someone’s promotion / retirement? He would wait about 45 minutes after the start time and then call me. And call me. And call me. Each time was something stupid: “I can’t find my reciprocating saw. Where did you put it?” (Wha-? I had never used the saw in my life). My co-workers started to worry that I was being physically abused by him. [LOL, no. Just mental and emotional abuse.]

            He would also decide that those evenings when I had work plans — literally once or a twice a year — were the perfect time for him to make an elaborate dinner… and then get angry because I wasn’t home at 6:00 PM to eat it with him. Like, my dude, you could have made this meal yesterday or tomorrow, instead of doing it today and trying to sabotage my temporarily enjoying the company of other people.

          2. Evelyn Karnate*

            Since counseling is a big investment of $$$ and emotional energy a lot of people treat it as a last resort… kinda like going to the dentist only after your tooth falls out and then questioning the effectiveness of dentistry.

            Counseling didn’t save my first marriage, but it sure helped me understand it better and gave me tools for future relationships.

            1. Bird names*

              That’s a very good point re. last resort. I’m glad what you’ve learned proved useful later on.

          3. Azure Jane Lunatic*

            My partner went to relationship counseling with their ex (despite the advice that you never go to counseling with an abuser) just to make sure that they had done everything in their power to salvage the relationship without remaining as her metaphorical punching bag. It helped them understand that their needs and her needs could not be reconciled, and helped them realize that after years of abuse they had already checked out.

          4. Tip Tap Type*

            Huh, that’s interesting to hear! Thinking about my own experiences, I know several couples who have gone and are still together years later. My husband and I did marriage counseling in 2021 and found it very helpful. We weren’t going in for huge marriage-ending issues; more slow-simmering problems that kept cropping up.

            I wonder if the fact that therapy of all kinds is so normal in my peer group that we’re more likely to go in proactively. Whatever the case, I’m glad we did; it was really hard to find childcare and it stung financially, but it helped us stop some issues in their tracks.

          5. Spero*

            Marriage counseling saved our marriage for just long enough to have kids before he started back with the same behaviors that sent us to counseling in the first place.
            The reason success rate is low isn’t because of the counseling, it’s usually because of whatever behavior made the counseling necessary in the first place. Counseling made clear what had to change and helped us implement those changes. But it doesn’t always manage to change the participant’s commitment to keeping up with those changes long term.

        2. a trans person*

          Marriage counseling “success” doesn’t necessarily mean “the marriage continues” and the idea that it should mean that is another tool of patriarchal oppression.

          1. Orv*

            I guess I see your point, but if you go to marriage counseling because you’re afraid you’re going to have to get divorced, and then you get divorced anyway, that seems like you could have skipped a step.

            1. EJC*

              Relationship counseling can be very critical to the process of separating. It can help the separation process be much less turbulent for everyone, especially children.

          2. jasmine*

            Right, marriage counseling is successful when the parties involved can make the best decision for them, which is less likely to happen if they go into it assuming there will be a divorce.

            Also patriarchal oppression is neither here nor there, because marriage itself is not a tool of patriarchal oppression

        3. Rob Moss Mob Boss*

          He needs counseling so he can deal with HIS feelings. it’s not her job to fix his insecurity at a huge cost to HER.

      4. H.Regalis*

        Agreed. I have a friend right now who’s in her 50s and getting divorced. She’s in a support group for woman in similar situations and has met so, so many who gave up everything for their spouse and family, and now are left with nothing.

      5. jasmine*

        > hubby is being particularly weird (manipulative/whiny/unreasonable) here

        I was worried someone was going to have this take, and I’m glad Alison didn’t.

        You have no idea if that’s what’s going on based on this letter.

    2. EchoGirl*

      And of course I didn’t revise the full comment and ended up somewhat contradicting myself. I think the point I was trying to make is still clear though — it’s average to below-average.

      1. Jessica*

        It may be low-average relative to jobs that involve travel, but I think those are a minority of jobs. (I’d love to see actual data about this!) Maybe OP’s husband needs to start by getting real about what her career is.

    3. Ellie*

      I think OP will end up resenting her husband if she doesn’t take this promotion because of him. But Alison is right, you need to have an honest discussion with your husband and try to get into some marriage counselling. Grief counselling for your husband might also be a good idea.

      1. WS*

        I wanted to note this, too: the one time my parents had major conflict over work was after a bad year where he lost his mother and the eldest child (me) was also seriously ill most of the year. My mum was offered a promotion which would involve notably longer hours, my dad was upset about it especially as he’d shortened his hours to help look after me. They eventually agreed to try it for a year after which he was doing better and I’d had surgery and was also much better. Other people are noting the husband being controlling, but I think that he could just be resisting change in a not very helpful way. Either way, counselling is a great idea.

        1. Boof*

          Yea OP literally describes him as “clingy” not “controlling” I think we should take her at her word if there’s no compelling evidence otherwise; my sense is her husband is feeling “lonely” in some way he can’t articulate and is unfairly focusing on her work as the problem for whatever reason (maybe it seems easier to ask her to work less than to try to really strengthen the quality of the time they spend together, which may really be the problem; or maybe he’s grieving and stressed about things and becoming irritable, who knows). Marriage counseling may be best, or OP could at least try to have a “Real” conversation about what’s bothering him, listen seriously and try to get him to articulate – “time together” needs to be dug into with “what do you want to do with the time together? Can we do that on the weekend?” etc. (yes, marriage counselor territory but you can do this on your own some too)

          1. Also-ADHD*

            LW says she feels trapped at one point, which is where I think she feels controlled by his needs and the situation (which may be intent wise different from controlling on his part but has a similar outcome to her).

            1. Boof*

              Well, feelings are valid, but you can’t control someone’s feelings and it doesn’t mean the situation is abusive just because it generates bad feelings; there are many other kinds of expectation-behavior mismatches than abuse. I just want to be very careful about jumping on the abuse train because that’s managed really differently /has really different anticipated outcomes than someone who’s just depressed and going through a rough time and isn’t coping well. Marriage counseling would not be appropriate for an obviously abusive situation. It would be appropriate for working through conflicting goals/expectations for the marriage relationship.

        2. Sloanicota*

          If it’s about that longer trip, the husband may need support to come up with a plan for the 11 days, which I agree is a long time although no reason not to take a promotion. Note, OP should *not* do this for him – he needs to think through it. He needs to decide if he’d be happier to have a family member on her side come help, hire more assistance for that week, ask the kids’ friends if they might take them one night, or just agree to try it and see if it’s actually better than he feared, or whatever. And the solution can’t be “wife checks in every night multiple times a day and does a lot of emotional support and labor about this.” She will be working on an important trip for her.

          2. Worldwalker*

            He should think about what he would consider appropriate support /assistance for his wife if he were the one going on an 11-day trip, and then do that.

        3. Smithy*

          Completely agree with this and also how important counseling will be as opposed to just looking at this from a work question.

          I say this because being resistant to or worried about change are all really normal positions – but when they end up being voiced in a way that doesn’t sound supportive to your partner, that can really kick off a much larger negative spiral. Like many young adults, in my early 20’s I had a period of a really long job hunt and then at some point “the big” job interview came up. By this point I did already have a job that was affording me a stable life and I had a serious boyfriend in my city. When I was talking to him about the big job interview, I will never forget his refusal to talk about it and his comment “you’ve had lots of interviews for jobs you didn’t get.”

          And while his statement wasn’t true, what it also clearly indicated was a difference in the professional dreams and ambitions I had – whether or not I got this specific job. And his unwillingness to talk about it made me feel small.

          There are versions that will sound like mine, and there are versions that will be the opposite. But ultimately, this is why it’s a relationship/counseling issue.

          2. Paint N Drip*

            Totally agree!! The only issues in my marriage are when outside things cause reactions that spiral. This is NOT a job question, but will be perfect for discussing in therapy/counseling

    4. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      What worries me is that the husband claims to be worried about OP being in a foreign city alone. Does he think she’s made of bone china or what? OP didn’t mention it was anywhere dangerous, nor did she mention any religious bans on women travelling alone, and she would presumably be travelling to meet people so she would be completely alone, so that’s a pretty preposterous thing to say.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Grief isn’t terribly logical. I think OP could approach the concerns without necessarily accepting the one and only (drastic) solution he proposes. She could go over how her measures for her own safety are likely to be the same as at home. She can talk about when to spend time together and how to deliberately carve out that time instead of waiting for headphones to come off. I agree he’s been ridiculous and unfair and trying to control everything; I would add that if OP were to focus only on that and dismiss concerns it would simply raise the conflict level, but this is what a marriage counsellor would prevent.

      2. Rebecca*

        After I lost my father my anxiety shot through the roof. It’s like my brain is preparing itself to have to go through the trauma and loss all over again, and even 7 years on, on bad days when it flares up, I have to actively work not to let my anxiety prevent my family doing good things – I had sudden, vivid visions of my husband and son being swept out to sea while we were on holiday and had to work to keep my feet on the beach and not go ‘rescue’ them from their fun for about 5 minutes while it passed.

        If his loss is still very fresh, this new clinginess and fear that OP has mentioned could be a trauma response that they haven’t recognized or dealt with yet. I am not suggesting that it is ok if it continues – knowing why something is happening is not a reason to allow it to keep happening – but it would be a thing that marriage or grief counseling could help them solve and might not be that he’s an irredeemable controlling jerk.

      3. Bad Apple*

        To be fair, many women claim to feel unsafe when leaving their own homes (walking to and from their cars, when using public transport, etc.); it would therefore be surprising if an empathetic man hadn’t picked up on this messaging and thought about how dangerous it must be for a woman to travel to another country for days or weeks at a time.

        1. Transatlantic*

          It’s one thing to be empathetic and supportive. It’s another thing entirely to be controlling and using fear to keep women from living their lives. I’ve had to combat the second all my life. the LW didn’t sound concerned about her international travel, and her husband is using it as an excuse to make her stay home with him.

        2. ThatOtherClare*

          An empathetic man would ask her if she felt uncomfortable and believe her answer, not treat her like a walking statistic without the ability to hold her own opinions.

          1. ThatOtherClare*

            Bad Apple, I apologise. You hit a sore spot and my reply was much ruder than I intended. I should have re-read my comment before hitting submit.

            1. Bad Apple*

              Please don’t worry. I only hope that my response, which I sent before seeing this, doesn’t come across as too defensive. I’m sorry to hear about your experience.

              1. ThatOtherClare*

                This is why I like AAM so much, the many intelligent commenters who are capable of perceiving and discussing shades of grey.

                Thank you, Bad Apple.

          2. Bad Apple*

            Perhaps, but the background noise regarding women’s safety—as amply demonstrated on a near daily basis in the comment section (see, e.g., yesterday’s letter about workplace harrassment)—is such that it would be difficult for anyone to ignore. The wife may tell her concerned husband that it will be fine, but would she really be expected to say anything else? (“Well the homicide rate where I’m staying is very high, and it’s illegal to carry pepper spray, so I’ll just have to be extra careful!”)

            1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

              That risk is, as you say, background noise. It’s the risk she faces even in her home city. LW didn’t say the city she visits is particularly dangerous. In context it feels like her husband is throwing any excuse at the wall to see if any is persuasive.

            2. WellRed*

              There is absolutely nothing to indicate she’s traveling to a dangerous place. I think he’s just grasping at excuses.

          3. Daryush*

            This is really harsh, maybe give him the benefit of the doubt? We’re all a work in progress. Is there any person out there who always says exactly the right thing, every time?

        3. bamcheeks*

          I understand *why* men think like this, but a man who wants to be seen as empathetic needs to understand that this is exactly how non-violent men benefit from and weaponise make violence. This is not supportive, it is using the threat of male violence to restrict a woman’s violence, opportunities and ability to support herself.

          1. Jack Russell Terrier*

            I land on feeling this way. It’s fine to ask a woman how she feels about something – but inserting an ‘I don’t think it’s safe’ view’ can really lead to a look that says ‘I don’t trust my wife/etc to trust her gut’. That’s the opposite of what you should be doing and also, it’s paternalistic.

            The best thing a man can do, outside of following his wife’s lead on things like this, is to act on ways that show women they are not a threat – like crossing the road on a dark empty street, like understanding that women don’t always say ‘I don’t want to talk to you’ because they’re frightened how you might react and learning how to read these cues. I actually have watched some excellent reels by men explaining these things to educate other men.

            1. Yikes Department*

              “The best thing a man can do, outside of following his wife’s lead on things like this, is to act on ways that show women they are not a threat – like crossing the road on a dark empty street.”

              This is a deeply problematic suggestion. Without getting too specific and risking my comment being deleted, I can think of no logical reason why it should be acceptable to expect the members of one high-risk group (men) to assuage the fears of those around them without it being acceptable to expect the members of other high-risk groups (…) to assuage the fears of those around them.

              1. MigraineMonth*

                I’m not sure what you mean by “high-risk groups”.

                I think it’s generally respectful to not crowd/physically intimidate someone, particularly in situations where they already have a reason to be anxious (e.g. walking alone at night) or you have significant privilege over them (i.e. police are much more likely to believe you).

                I’m a tall woman. I scuff my feet when I approach other women from behind so as not to startle them. I don’t usually cross the street, but I’ll step off the sidewalk rather than crowd someone who is smaller/has a physical disability/has a child, regardless of gender.

              2. ThatOtherClare*

                I don’t understand, because I was under the impression that society had decided that this exact thing (assuaging people’s reasonable fears) is actually ok? For example, I volunteer with children. We volunteers have to get a yearly police check and we’re not allowed to be alone with a child. I very enthusiastically do these things – even though I’m about as much of a threat as a daisy – because it means the people who are a threat have no excuse not to, and parents and children can feel safer around me. I also voluntarily change aspects of my behaviour, like crouching before I speak to a child so that we’re at eye level and I don’t loom over them. Again, I like to do this. It makes me happy to be a ‘safe adult’, even though the children don’t consciously notice and certainly they’ll never thank me.

                A man doesn’t have to use the other side of the dark street. That would be overreach. But if a man wants to ask “How can I be more considerate of the people around me?” – well, crossing the street to avoid a woman on a dark night is a common answer.

      4. Your Former Password Resetter*

        It could easily be emotional messiness and grief causing him to be way more concerned about fairly minor dangers. It wouldn’t be a weird reaction to losing a loved one IMO.

        Either way this sounds like a whole whirlpool of emotions with a bunch of different issues getting tangled up into it, and everyone being stressed and nobody finding a working solution that makes everyone happy.

        This is something that is best unpacked with a proffessional, not an internet comment section.

        1. Alpaca Bag*

          This makes sense – after my daughter died, I worried about all my remaining people.

      5. SarahKay*

        People get odd about foreign travel sometimes, too. My parents, in their sixties, walked from the UK to Italy, all on proper footpaths or small roads. One friend asked them if they planned to carry a knife each to defend themselves with!

        My parents pointed out they would be walking through England, France, Germany, Switzerland and Italy; in none of those countries would one consider carrying a knife when going for a walk (which was essentially what they planned on doing, albeit many many walks).

        1. I can read anything except the room*

          What a lovely idea for a vacation! I’m dying to know more – What time of year did they undertake it? How many days of walking did they do, and was it all consecutive days or did they make pit stops along the way in some places where they’d stay more than just one night?

          1. word nerd*

            I’m not the OP, but on my bucket list is the Via Francigena, an ancient walking trail from Canterbury to Rome!

          2. SarahKay*

            It took them about five months after taking slightly early retirement. They set off about two days after he finished, in early April, and made it to Italy in early September, if I recall correctly.
            They stayed at bed and breakfasts or hostels generally, no camping, and yes, they would take some extra days in places they liked.
            There is a blog, at strollingtoitaly.net if you do want to know more.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          People have weird risk-calculation glitches.

          I was planning to take a train to a job interview in another city, but there was a mudslide across the tracks. Luckily, the train company chartered a bus to the city for those of us who had train tickets.

          The middle-aged woman seated next to me had an actual sobbing meltdown about being forced to ride on a bus with “these people” and how terrified she was.

          Every single person on that bus would also have been on the train with her.

      6. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        His objections to her travel are a real mishmash. Bad for the family, unsafe….I am not sure even he knows what the root issue is. I think this is why people assume it’s that he’s jealous of/threatened by her success.

      7. jasmine*

        This isn’t really that odd? Women’s safety while traveling is a common concern. We don’t know what the foreign city is.

      8. Also-ADHD*

        My husband has anxiety about me traveling or even driving a longer distance, and it’s just that…anxiety. He’s lost people in car and air crashes so I get it. That’s not a reason for LW to not take the job! But it’s not a sign he’s necessarily gaslighting or anything.

    5. BigLawEx*

      I once worked at a trade org and this travel isn’t too bad. Our annual trade meeting was once a year in the state capital, but a second meeting in DC with the other related orgs was a separate week. Then there was the travel to the big cities in the state to keep those members happy. This was the CEO and two VPs. Directors and others went to various meetings in state as it came up – with some opting to do more travel then others.

      #1 take the job and get the counseling. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I don’t know how it is for marriage counseling, but finding an individual therapist can take a few tries. OP1, if the first counselor isn’t working for you, keep trying until you find one who is.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      She does say she is the primary school transport right? It’s not trivial to work that into your schedule. It’s definitely the kind of thing to address in marriage counseling.

      Does the new job pay enough more to cover a nanny whenever OP is on the road?

      1. sparkle emoji*

        Given that it’s 15 days max, I’m not sure if a nanny would be interested for that little time. If the concern is the transportation, is there a trusted neighbor or parent of one of kiddo’s friends who could help out? LW could give some gas money or do a carpool during the large portion of the year they wouldn’t be traveling.

      2. NotAnotherManager!*

        It’s 15 days/year with substantial advance notice. She’s not asking him to permanently take over drop-off/pick-up. If the husband does not have the ability to flex his schedule temporarily (or take PTO to cover), they have plenty of time to line up a carpool, babysitter, neighborhood friend, etc. to help. This is one of the easiest child logistics problems to solve – it’s one kid, plenty of lead time, and set school hours.

      3. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        I kind of balked at this comment because I can’t imagine someone suggesting hiring a nanny if the dad was on the road. She’s been doing the annual 11 day trip already and they’ve apparently made it work. She’s really only talking about 4 additional days from the new job.

        I think they need counseling asap. The husband has a lot of complaints and no apparent solutions. What does he suggest they do for income if she gives up her job to avoid pretty minimal travel?

    7. BethDH*

      My spouse had more difficulty with me traveling when it was relatively rare than when it was part of our ordinary pattern. It upset the kids more because they didn’t have a routine for that situation, and we just didn’t have workarounds built up for all the daily stuff that usually relied on two adults in parallel.
      OP’s husband seems too upset given the situation, but I could easily see grief making it hard for him to have any of this sort of extra mental load and just digging his heels.
      OP should still take the promotion given what’s been described here, but I’d go into marriage counseling with a lot of grace about alleviating his anxiety re travel.

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        As a side note, my mom would travel… once or twice a year? two or three times a year? when I was a kid, and I don’t remember finding this disruptive (although it could well have been more so than I recall). It certainly helped that my dad was our primary caregiver, but one of the other things that helped is that we had special routines/treats that we only did when mom was out of town, so while I missed her when she was gone, it was also the cue for special Daddy Time that I looked forward to and recall very fondly.

        1. Some Words*

          I had a similar thought. Perhaps they could use the apart time for dad to take his child (children) on their own, special vacation. That way he’s not sitting at home, counting down the days until she comes back.

        2. sparkle emoji*

          Yeah, my mom was primary for a lot of things, but my dad created special routines for us when she was traveling. She might travel up to 2-3 months in a year at different times when I was growing up. We had special foods and restaurants we got to eat then because she didn’t like them, so there were things to look forward to.

        3. louvella*

          When my mom traveled for work my dad would get us Cocoa Puffs. My mom was very into health food. (I should say that my mom knew about the Cocoa Puffs, it’s not like she actually forbid them or something, it was just a silly thing that made is fun for mom to be gone.)

        4. Jack Russell Terrier*

          YES – both my parents traveled for substantial weeks at a time, a couple of times or so a year during my childhood and it was good to have alone time with both of them as well as the together time. It’s a wonderful way of bonding differently.

        5. LL*

          I think that him being the primary parent really helps though. My mom was the primary parent and neither parent traveled much, but occasionally did, and while I found both disruptive, it was more so when Mom was gone than when Dad was gone.

    8. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I think the travel is just a red herring. The real issue is that they don’t have the connection they once had (maybe? have they always just been passively hanging out while husband watches videos with headphones on and OP doom-scrolls?) AND the husband’s grief, family situation, and alcohol consumption. I can personally speak to the first one, because I was in a relationship with someone for a few years that was exciting and fun the first two and over the course of the third year devolved into something like what the OP describes with her husband. Because we were only dating and not even living together, it was really easy for me to just end the relationship. Not so easy for OP, though, especially because I don’t think ending the marriage is necessarily the right move here. Isn’t there some advice about how you shouldn’t make any major life decisions for at least a year after losing a close family member?

      OP, you need to have a serious, sober discussion with your husband about what you need from him and what he is able to give to you. Marriage counseling seems like it would be the best environment for such a discussion, but the hardest thing might actually be to convince him to go to counseling. Can you at least suggest to him that you need a neutral third party to help you talk things through? In any case, I am often one to suggest “OMG break up with him ASAP” (so easy to suggest, not so easy to do!) but it sounds like he’s a good person and you all just need a reset button and maybe even try to have a regularly scheduled screen-free day or evening where you do something together, either alone or with your kid.

      Best of luck, OP, I am sure you both can work through this.

      1. Llama mama*

        I agree with your assessment, I think the travel thing is a red-herring. OP, you say your husband feels you spend to much time working, and you yourself admit that you are doing work at home at night. Wanting to feel more connected to your partner, and feeling unappreciated are not inherently sexist or manipulative feelings to express. I am in a relationship where I am the primary financial support and my husband is the primary caretaker, and was raised in a family with a similar dynamic 9but with more travel on my mother’s part). My experience is that it is not just women who can feel taken-for-granted at home. Greif over family loss (both from death and estrangement) hit my husband as well recently, and it can make it harder to deal with other issues (including pre-existing ones). However, this isn’t a problem that gets fixed by debating exactly what number of travel days the internet says is reasonable and fact checking every instance of who was wearing headphones when. It sounds like you both still want to have a stronger connection and admire things about each other, and I would hope counseling can help you negotiate and reconnect through a tough period.

        2. Meep*

          It sounds like LW is both the primary financial support AND caretaker, though. Her husband is being ridiculous.

    9. waffles*

      agree! The travel is not unreasonable, and I would also say that the husband’s response is not appropriate. I am a woman with children and a male partner, and while we have had kids I have had jobs that required 25% or more travel, including for 2 actual weeks (14 or 16) days at a time. Some of these jobs required me to go to locations with some safety risks (linked to the nature of my job). My partner works a job without regular business hours (works nights, weekends) and at no time in my career has my partner suggested I don’t do a job that I want to do because of how difficult it would be to manage his own work with the kids’ schedules. And, it has been difficult! But this is a solveable problem if you are at the CEO level. (And I’ve never been that senior).

      1. Molehills*

        The perceptions of risk with international travel are so interesting to me. In my previous career, I travelled on average 3 months of the year – 50% UK and 50% international, usually on my own. I felt the most unsafe in Minneapolis (my boss had a knack for finding the sketchiest taxies in any city I visited with him), and perfectly safe to walk around on my own in the area of Nairobi I was staying in.

        Most of the time if you’re travelling for work – especially for a trade show – you’re going to be in the CBD, not the local crime hotspot. Be sensible and attentive to your surroundings, but from the way some people talk about it, you’d think they were being frog-marched to Gotham to attend the International Clown Congress & Experimental Chemistry Expo.

    10. Helewise*

      It seems like a really minimal amount of travel to me, honestly. I’ve admittedly been the support spouse for a really, really travel-intensive position in the past, but this just doesn’t seem like a lot to me.

    11. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I agree. I used to travel a great deal. I suspect that the husband’s recent estrangement from his family may be making him clingier. My husband used to have a dying duck fit every time I had to do the continuing education I need to do to maintain my license to practice law.

    12. Boof*

      I travel sometimes to work, but I almost never travel alone :P Almost always my fam is interested in coming with and we go as a group; I will totally admit it’s a lot of extra work and expense (since we are often talking 5-6 people instead of 1; tho if visiting near other grandparents sometimes I only take 1-2 of the children instead of the whole horde), and sometimes I kind of wish I could just not bother, but it’s kind of either a grass-is-greener “remember the halcyon days of yore when I could just do things because oh right it was before I went ahead and fulfilled my lifegoal of having 3 kids and now things are different because my life is at a different (desired) phase now” and/or that means I’m taking on too much and need to ask other people to step up if they want it to happen.
      It means my kids have been to rome, to dublin. I had a buddy in Japan to roam the streets and try a bunch of different sushi places with (did not take kids! They still complain about not going to japan! I found myself thinking several times “ooh this would be fun with the kids!” at some parts of that trip!). And i don’t think folks HAVE to travel or anything, it’s hard, the ethics are all over the map (environmental impact, voyeurism, etc) honestly I wouldn’t do it much except I have to do it and hey, why not bring the crew. I actually really enjoy it overall and see things through many people’s eyes I love, not just my own.
      OK anyway I have no idea if that sort of thing would be the LW’s or their husband’s cup of tea but just saying my family’s a bit on the clingy side about travel but it’s mostly enjoyable and something we just roll with. (also, I grew up wandering cities alone, not at all worried about the dangers of travel that’s a separate anxiety maybe LW should address with their husband)

  3. Free Meerkats*

    Since neither Taylor nor Blake will fess up, time to install a camera over the counter and record all their interactions with customers.

    You can straight up tell them that you know it was one of them, but that person is lying so now they get monitoring.

    1. Ellie*

      Can you not find that information on the system somehow? Call centres generally have ways of monitoring how many calls people are taking, surely you can just take a look at the call logs?

      Otherwise, don’t schedule them together and watch them like hawks. And consider if you just want to be done with both of them right now, since it sounds like they’ve had more than a fair amount of chances.

    2. Raida*

      I would avoid anything like “Well since I can’t trust *one of you* the *nobody* get privacy!”
      Because that is a tool for getting innocent people to turn on the people causing issues – both of them are saying it was the other already, so the innocent one is already doing the right thing.

      Better to put in the cameras if useful, and if there’s another complaint then they’ll be a useful management tool. Not a “See this monitoring? That’s. What. You. GET.” stick.

      1. umami*

        I think the unfortunate thing here is, both of them have performance issues such that the manager actually can’t believe either of them, which in itself is a problem. Innocent one might be innocent in this particular case but clearly also has performance issues. I think it would be best to not schedule them together, and pair them up with a peer who can model good customer service.

        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Ding, ding, ding. They are both a problem. Neither one really cares to do the job correctly. The latest incident is just one piece of the overall problem. OP instead of focusing on this one thing and trying to find out who is lying, use it as a basis for a big picture conversation with both of them (in 1:1 with each one) about expectations and moving forward. Either they get with the program or they can be moved out.

        2. Annony*

          Yep. I think they need to reevaluate their process for firing people over performance. OP already knows both give terrible customer service. They have had training and seem uninterested in improving. Why does it even matter which of them did this particular instance? The process needs to be shorter.

        3. MassMatt*

          Right, I was wondering why two people with such performance issues were working together and unsupervised. These two absolutely cannot be the only ones working a shift moving forward, and OP should start looking to replace them ASAP.

          Getting coverage with a small group and varying schedules can be tough but think of how the business’s reputation is suffering due to this.

          OP should be glad that someone complained, because stats show for every person that does, at least ten don’t bother saying anything and take their business elsewhere.

        4. Festively Dressed Earl*

          I agree with the idea of scheduling Taylor and Blair with good role models, with the caveat to make sure that good employees don’t get stuck doing the work of two people, at least not for an extended period of time. Is there a team lead that can be looped in to the situation and help mentor them, so that OP can avoid demoralizing the good employees while sorting out the problem?

    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’d install a camera but I wouldn’t tell them in such a punitive manner, more like “this is to help resolve any future customer service issues and to be fair to you both”

    4. Your Former Password Resetter*

      A camera seems like overkill for that, and not really the right tool for the situation.
      This can be done with better management or data tracking, without making life harder for everyone involved.

      1. OP, LW#3*

        Additional cameras are not an option. We also have a stance that we do not surveil staff with cameras. That does not foster trust with staff. And yes, this is an in-person service desk. The logins are shared, so we cannot track of review logs of when the incident occurred.

        1. Person from the Resume*

          Ask the client again or give up the search for the answer. There’s no way to know. And also do not schedule them together in the future.

          Or just fire both people now. Your underlying problem is you have two very poor performers that are this close to being fired. You haven’t mentioned that either is working to improve.

          1. Slow Gin Lizz*

            I agree. I think there’s no way you’ll ever know which one of them is telling the truth so you need to let this one incident go. But also I don’t know why you want to keep either of these employees anyway. I know you gave Taylor a “one more strike and you’re out” warning and I wouldn’t consider this her last strike since you can’t confirm it’s her, but if their attitudes are still bad and their work not very good (not invested in ensuring the customers receive the best service possible? why are either of these people in customer service jobs in the first place?) I would have a very specific talk with each of them WRT their future at your company. Make this your final such talk with them (sounds like you’ve had these talks before AND given them specialized training and they still haven’t improved) and say that the next time you have to talk to them about their attitudes and work quality, that will mean you are letting them go.

            Sorry, it sounds like you’ve invested a lot in them and tried to help them improve, but you can’t help someone who doesn’t want to help themselves. It sucks to fire people, yes, but you also can’t keep having customers complain about them if you want your business to succeed.

        2. Observer*

          Yeah, the reason for cameras is not to surveil staff, but to protect them. In case like this it would have given you some good information, but even aside from the trust issue, which I agree with, it’s just not a cost effective tool for staff surveillance. It’s just that *occasionally* it winds up being helpful for a staff issue.

          Now, logins should NOT be shared. That’s an audit nightmare waiting to happen. Any time staff are touching client, transaction, PII and / or money related data, you absolutely need an audit trail.

          1. I Have RBF*

            Yeah, the shared logins are not good. Yes, it’s a PITA to have to log yourself in vs just using the logged in computer, but if you want good metrics on who does what, give everyone (not just those two) their own login.

        4. Orv*

          As an IT person, I would strongly recommend separate logins per employee if at all possible. It helps with both security and accountability.

        5. Kevin Sours*

          This seems like something to look into. Shared logins are bad news in general. They are a security issue. They mess up forensics. Not just in this case which is relatively low stakes. If you have a security breech knowing which account was compromised is essential to figuring out how it happened (and to distinguish an outside exploit from internal abuse).

        6. MassMatt*

          “We also have a stance that we do not surveil staff with cameras. That does not foster trust with staff.”

          To be honest, these two have not earned trust; quite the opposite.

          Cameras need not be seen as punitive nor intrusive, they are there for everyone’s protection. I worked retail for years and having cameras were literally a lifesaver, and cut down on theft and abuse of staff.

          1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

            They don’t need to earn not being surveilled. For once, an employer has a reasonable, non-intrusive policy about not micromanaging service staff and the comments jump completely the other way.

            Cameras are not the solution, because data recording of the event isn’t the problem.

          2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

            If an internal camera can be aimed where it gets the place where clients approach the desk, and enough of the desk to see who is there, but not much behind the desk, that might thread the needle between the need for staff privacy and the need to know what is happening.

            If there is any potential for an angry client to become physically abusive of staff, a camera that could catch any physical interaction, or a client going behind the desk if that’s physically possible, would provide evidence in the event of a client making really bad decisions.

        7. fhqwhgads*

          You have a few options here:
          1) the customer “didn’t want them to get in trouble” so you let this one go, despite their mutual performance issues. At this rate they’ll do it again soon enough anyway.
          2) they were both basically at last strike anyway, let them both go now.

          Completely unrelated to that or this situation in general: shared logins are SO a bad idea. Does this role ever handle payments? Credit card info? If so, you’re not PCI compliant and the company faces giant fines over that. So whether you trust employees or not, whether they’re great at the job or terrible, one human = one login should be the norm.

    5. Person from the Resume*

      This seems extreme … both employees are poor performers and close to being fired.

      The LW probably shouldn’t pressure the client, but their complaint without stating who is not actionable. (“Get in trouble” is so childish. If you’re going to complain be willing to give all the information.).

      The LW could tell the client, “I’m trying to address your complaint but I need to know which employee needs to improve / additional training / etc.” in order to get the name.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I think it depends on what the customer is looking for. If they just want a refund for poor service or something, I don’t think that there is any need for the customer to give the employee’s name. Sure, it might help the LW, but that isn’t the customer’s concern. If they are concerned about the employee continuing to give poor service to others, then yeah, they should give the name, but a lot of issues are unlikely to arise again anyway and most likely, they just want the issue to be fixed.

        Like when I had an issue where my phone was taking the money for data, then telling me I had no data and I contacted my provider and the person I spoke to failed to fix it and I had to complain again, what I wanted was for it to start giving me the data I paid for. They didn’t know who failed to fix the issue the first time to do that for me.

        On the other hand, when I got a very pushy phone call, pretty much telling me I had better buy a new phone, I certainly wanted them to know who had called me because in that case, my concern was that people might be pressurised into buying something they neither wanted nor needed.

    6. Sloanicota*

      I hate to be a hardass, but I’m not sure either of these employees are worth keeping. The options that Blake is the one who made the error and would now on final warning status instead of written up, but he’s lying about it (so you should fire him for the lying)- or that Taylor made the error and should be fired, *and* he’s lying about it, or it’s possible Blake is half a degree less bad as he didn’t make the error and isn’t lying – if so, I’d expect to see him really trying to make his case here, which there’s no mention of … it honestly seems like you might be well worth getting rid of them both, and you don’t want to enable “he said-she said” to get an employee out of trouble.

    7. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Honestly, given the history with both of them, just let both go now. Neither one is performing at an acceptable level.

  4. Pumukli*

    I don’t even understand the C-suite exec’s reasoning. So now it’s OK to infect your colleagues if it’s “just a summer cold”?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      A lot of people don’t seem to grasp that many people don’t really want a summer cold either (or a seasonally appropriate one, for that matter!), tbh.

      1. pandop*

        Even in the pre-Covid times, it is amazing how much my sick time went down, once a certain team leader had left for another job.

      2. DJ Abbott*

        That’s why I still mask on transit in and stores. I am not particularly vulnerable to Covid, but I can do without colds and flu too!
        I’ve posted before about our new manager who came to work with a cold even though she could have worked from home, and I caught it from her last January. I ended up with a secondary infection and had to use vacation days because they don’t frontload sick time.
        She did that again a few months later, and I wore a mask to go into her office. I don’t care who it is, if I know someone is sick I am wearing a mask! If they don’t like that, I’ll find another job where my health is respected. Hmmmph!

      3. WeirdChemist*

        Right!? “Oh, Covid is basically just a cold/flu at this point, who cares!” Um I don’t want to deal with even minor cold/flu symptoms if I don’t have to… it still sucks to deal with! How about people try not to spread infectious disease at all…

        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          Or, “my Covid test is negative so I’m coming into the office.” No! Keep your sick as a dog contagious ass at home! There are a million things folks can transmit at work, particularly if you’re packed into tight cubicles or attending a lot of in-person meetings. (I know I’ve ranted about this before, but it was a common refrain in my office for much of 2022-23 and became a major peeve.)

          1. I Have RBF*

            Open plan offices are the worst for passing infectious diseases around. One open plan benching setup gave me pneumonia in the first two months I worked there. This was pre-Covid. I would regularly measure the noise at 67 dB. The more compressed a company makes the workspace, the more disease transmission occurs.

            I now work 100% remote, and my personal sick time has dropped like a rock. Even my migraines are less frequent. I mask when I go out because there are immune compromised people in my house, and we’re all over 60.

    2. Feeling Feline*

      It’s absolutely not okay: sadly until 2020, it’s socially expected to “soldier on” to show your toughness. I once pressured coworker home in 2018, and in order to change the mindset I jokingly offered if he really wanted to feel tough by being at work sick, once he’s not infectious I can break his finger for him then force him to work, but I do not want his infection. That got through to him.

      One of the better local practices is if you handle food and have any gastro-like symptoms, you are legally required for a clearence to return to work. Food industry is notorious regarding to looking down on people who call in sick, despite that food industry is one where they can do worst harm to public health.

      It shouldn’t be acceptable. Culturally it’s the only acceptable behaviour in some people’s mind.

      1. Nodramalama*

        So true. The jingle for an Australian cold and flu company used to literally be “soldier on with codral cold and flu”

        And I remember because I sing it to myself all the time. So the jingle worked. The sentiment not as great

        1. Feeling Feline*

          I remember that ad, and the point that I vouched to never ever ever buy that brand again. If it’s the “separating men from boys” ad, extra dose of toxic masculinity too.

        2. Jill Swinburne*

          “Don’t let colds or flu steal your day away from you, with Codral you can soooldier oooon!”

          IIRC the guy in the ad was coughing his guts out on a bus. Not sorry they don’t show that one any more, even in the olden days I thought it was gross.

        3. Inkhorn*

          This winter I’ve been seeing print ads for Codral… on public transport. Squicks me out every time; if you’re infectious I do NOT want you popping a pill and soldiering onto my train! Stay home!

          1. Nodramalama*

            I don’t think companies advertise on public transport because they’re trying to get you to use their product ON public transport.

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              I sure hope not, given how many viagra ads I saw while I was commuting in New York City.

              Unfortunately the descriptions of this specific ad campaign say they do feature cold sufferers on public transit.

            2. Best not in show*

              Then why so do the ads literally show people popping the pills and jumping onto a bus or train to work?

              1. Nodramalama*

                That wasnt what the commenter was talking about. Companies advertise on public transport because they get a lot of traffic and people don’t have anything to do but look at the ads. It’s not because the products are designed to be used on public transport.

      2. Orv*

        This kind of thing starts early. When I was in college, I took a final exam while sick with the flu because I knew I wouldn’t get to make it up if I missed it. Practically everyone I knew had the same experience at one point or another.

      3. Ansteve*

        Since i started working for a boss that was like “if you want to work sick work from home.”, my recovery time has improved and I overall get sick less. It used to be nearly a month for me to get over a cold. Now the bad colds usually clear up after about a week.

    3. Freya*

      One of the things that I love about my workplace is that the boss will absolutely make you go home if you’re sick and it might be infectious, and will WFH herself rather than risk any of us getting sick and needing to have the workload redistributed. I’m currently the most vulnerable person in the office, but all of us would rather not be sick!

      1. RC*

        Y’all remember that episode of Parks and Rec where Leslie comes into work obviously sick and tries to pretend she isn’t? I still love that show but post-2020 me is completely horrified by all of it (misting with hand sanitizer?? Chris’s mask strap usage?? Licking things??)

    5. Irish Teacher.*

      I once attended a conference where the presenter was coughing and said “oh, don’t worry, it’s not covid. It’s just the flu.” Um…so “just” an illness that also kills numerous people each year… Yeah, I don’t want that either.

      1. Katara's side braids*

        Right. It’s frustrating when people compare Covid to the flu to imply that we’re overreacting to Covid, when maybe we were actually underreacting to the flu before. And no, I’m not saying that we should have been implementing March 2020-level precautions every single flu season, but that maybe we should have normalized masking when sick/around sick people and prioritized ventilation in meeting venues/event spaces a bit more. Not to mention staying home as much as possible during the coughing/sneezing stage of illness.

        1. Rex Libris*

          I think it’s because most of the time when people think they have the flu, it’s just a particularly bad cold. I had actual diagnosed flu a couple of years ago and was in bed for most of three days with a fever so high I was hallucinating. It isn’t exactly fun.

          1. I can read anything except the room*

            Yep, there’s also the colloquialism of referring to a 24-hour stomach bug as “stomach flu” that contributes to watering down the perception of flu severity.

        2. Worldwalker*

          It’s distressing that reasonable precautions against transmission were politicized.

          Even more distressing that the rationale was “protecting others’ lives is less important than my own inconvenience.”

          1. Rex Libris*

            I think many of them honestly didn’t think it was real. So many people nowadays live with total conviction that anything they don’t like simply isn’t true, so therefore some sort of fraud is being perpetrated against them.

            Sadly, they can easily find any number of politicians, social media outlets, and other dubious sources to reinforce their delusions.

        3. Paint N Drip*

          AGREED. People young and old die from the flu every year! You don’t have to be fragile or elderly or chronically ill, it can absolutely kill you.

      2. WeirdChemist*

        Even if it’s not a risk to my long term health, I don’t want a cold! I’m not immunocompromised, I don’t have any secondary conditions that would likely make a cold/flu particularly dangerous for me, but why would I want to be tired/achey/sore-throat/congested/cough if I don’t have to?? Even a mild cold still sucks to have to deal with!!

    6. Busy Middle Manager*

      is “summer cold” even a term or a thing?

      Reminds me one time when my coworker came in soaked and said “I didn’t bring an umbrella because it was just supposed to be summer showers”

      She was a bit chatty so I didn’t ask why adding “summer” to the word “rain” made it less of a real storm and less wet

      1. Missa Brevis*

        Maybe this is a regional thing? To me, ‘summer showers’ indicates very brief bursts of light rain, often occurring on days that are only partly cloudy. It’s a totally separate phenomenon from a proper rainstorm, even if that rain is on a summer day.

      2. Kelsi*

        I generally hear people use “summer cold” to indicate it’s a more isolated case where only that one person seems to have it, vs the seasonal “everyone and their sister has this cold” sweep in the winter.

        Not that it matters when you are sitting right there being contagious at me!! I don’t care who else has it, I’m being exposed to you!

    7. NaoNao*

      I think it’s not even about other people, it’s that when one has a cold, it’s expected one will power through and go to work with meds, tissues, etc. CoVid is typically much more severe in symptoms but the visible/obvious symptoms are similar so it kind of makes sense that the boss would try to reassure people “I know I’m coughing and sneezing and appear run down but it’s a cold, not the scariest disease around!”

      CoVid is a very different animal, and one that many people have been (not unfairly) painting as absolutely terrifying for immunocompromised in the way that a mere cold is not. So that logic does track: a cold doesn’t kill anyone (generally). CoVid *does*, so a cold is something to worry about getting much less.

      Not that it makes it okay, but it’s certainly much more understandable to me, personally. It’s icky and irritating, but it’s not confusing, personally.

      1. Alex*

        For many of us Covid is presents with fewer and milder symptoms than many other unidentifiable colds. Honestly at this point I’d much rather be around Covid than plenty of other virus’ with similar symptoms because for my particular body it appears that Covid is extremely mild whilst some other virus’ can last longer and have more severe symptoms.

      2. I Have RBF*

        The problem is that the initial symptoms of Covid present like a cold or allergies. When I got Covid I thought it was allergies for the first 5 days, but when I started with the fever and chills plus deep cough I tested. By that time everyone else around me was infected. I luckily managed to *not* infect the immune compromised person, but they avoid any person with respiratory symptoms. Fortunately, I was working remotely, and had “unlimited” sick time, so my boss let me work partial days after taking three days to lie in bed, miserable.

    8. Crencestre*

      Not excusing the C-suiter who risked giving everyone around her COVID, but one of the trickiest aspects of COVID is that so many of its symptoms mimic those of far milder illnesses – some of which aren’t even contagious at all! People with allergies can cough, sneeze, have runny noses, etc. BUT you can’t give someone else your allergy by coughing or sneezing around them (or by doing anything else, for that matter.) People with GERD may have a cough so severe that it sounds as if they’re deathly ill – but THEY can’t give bystanders GERD either!

      So it’s entirely possible that someone with allergies, GERD or both could get COVID and not think that they need to be tested because “Oh, it’s just my allergies/GERD acting up again.” And to add to the challenge, allergies and GERD can both develop at any age – just because you haven’t had them before doesn’t mean you can’t suddenly get them now!

      Best solution? Get vaccinated for COVID if it’s at all medically feasible! And remember that we’re not only getting vaccinated to protect our loved ones and ourselves – we’re protecting all those people who’d LOVE to be vaccinated themselves but whose medical conditions make that impossible. We’re all in this together, folks – let’s act like it!

      1. Katara's side braids*

        All of this is true, but that’s all the more reason to normalize masking. I know it isn’t going to happen because masks are inconvenient and people have only gotten more individualistic, but personally I have a really hard time distinguishing my allergy coughs/sneezes from COVID coughs/sneezes. I already mask in all indoor spaces, but if I didn’t, I would definitely mask on days when my allergy symptoms were particularly bad because there’s a chance it’s not just allergies!

        I’m very pro-vaccination, but the variants have evolved to the point where the vaccines are not that effective against transmission and mostly help with disease severity. Even then, many healthy, vaxxed people will end up with Long Covid after multiple infections, to say nothing of the immunocompromised. It’s a necessary but insufficient measure for community-level protection.

        1. RC*

          I compare masks to pants (or shoes). Yeah I guess you can have really uncomfortable ones, and what fits best on my body might not fit on yours, but there are different options to try; they aren’t all equally uncomfortable! (e.g., I greatly prefer the molded style N95s and cannot stand the center-fold design ones. I wanted to like boat-shaped ones but they didn’t fit my nose well. A lot of people love the Auras but it’s a bit too big for my smaller face, etc etc). Normalize masking like we normalize pants!

        2. I Have RBF*

          The nice thing about masks is that they help with allergies too. I will often mask when driving so I don’t end up with a series of sneezes that make it hard to see and steer.

          1. Katara's side braids*

            This is also true! Sometimes I wear mine outside on days when the pollen is particularly bad. I get some weird looks but it’s worth it to be able to breathe.

  5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

    OP1 (husband doesn’t like OPs dedication to work and their work travel) – I’ve seen variations of this situation play out a few times and agree with the recommendation for marriage counselling (but I expect he will resist going).

    How this situation often comes about is: financial struggles, the lower earner (husband in this case – OP didn’t state that he’s the lower earner but I am pretty sure) feels “guilty”, maybe unconsciously, that they aren’t contributing more or are partly the cause of the situation, displaces the guilt onto the main breadwinner and blames them for “always being at work” etc. Maybe an element of being afraid that when OP takes this CEO role, or even already, that OP will start to think they can “do better” than the husband. (I don’t think this is objectively the case or that OP would want to ‘do better than’ but it is a fear people have.)

    Does “2 weeks away will be bad for the family” really mean he’s afraid how he will cope as a very temporary “single dad”…?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Your last paragraph is how I, perhaps unfairly, read that letter because I’ve seen a version of this letter way too many times over the years. I hope I’m wrong!

    2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      OP says he does take care of the child. TBF, it is harder for the less involved parent to step up to 100% for a while. He may have the same 50s attitude that my father had , that a woman’s place is in the home.
      It does seem like OP is the one doing all the work though, a high earner and the more involved parent.

      1. Arrietty*

        Well, it says he makes breakfast and lunch. That’s a fairly minimal amount of looking after. My 3 year old can just about do that for himself.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            PBJ and simple sandwiches are manageable before kindergarten if you keep ingredients at child level. Just don’t expect anything to be closed, washed, or put back into the fridge afterwards…. Do expect spills, disappeared lunch meat/cheese, and a smug family pet.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              LOL for the smug family pet.

              My 3-year-old nibling figured out which fridge drawer the Lunchables were kept in and ate just the cheese out of four of them before anyone noticed. She seems to eat 50% of her bodyweight in yogurt, so she could definitely fend for herself for a couple of meals if someone was willing to clean up afterwards.

        2. Dhaskoi*

          Came to here to say the same thing. Part of me says it’s always foolish to speculate with limited information. Another part of me says that OP listing this basic action as a notable accomplishment that tells us something about the husband.

            1. Funny you should mention*

              You should read the comments from the OP further down this thread, because you’re projecting pretty hard.

              1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

                That’s not projection. That’s the reality for a large percent of the population. Ever heard a dad described as “babysitting” his own children?

                Reasonable assumptions based on known facts are not “projecting”, they’re acknowledging the most likely scenario.

    3. Miette*

      This is a very good and well thought out way of saying what I immediately thought: someone is feeling jealous or threatened by OP’s job. I’ve seen way too many relationships end over this perception by one partner that the other’s job is “taking them away from me,” often without much more commitment than OP is describing. Get thee (even if he won’t go) to a marriage counselor!

    4. Funny you should mention*

      I hope commenters see both this and OPs response below. The OP stated that in fact, she is angry about her husband making more money than she does, and he is also open to marriage counseling.

      It’s a good reminder that we have very little to go on in these letters, and what we read is one person’s side and often heavily slanted.

    5. Kevin Sours*

      I’ll repeat something I’ve heard over and over as advice: “If he won’t go she should go by herself”.

    6. Meep*

      +1 a million times over.

      This is a him issue feeling emasculated and he needs separate therapy to work on these issues, but will most likely continue to deflect. Fortunately, my dad was not like this at all (my mom was the breadwinner and he was the SAHP after losing his job), but it is a pretty common occurrence.

      My own husband disliked me initially paying for things when we started dating despite me having a job and him being in college. I used to have to hand him my card so he felt like he was paying. Now, he loves being treated. Hopefully, LW’s husband is willing to get over his internalized misogyny too.

  6. learnedthehardway*

    OP#1 – this feels like some kind of controlling behaviour, to me. I mean, it’s not enough that you’re in the same room with your husband while he is doing something completely unrelated to you, but you also need to be giving him your full attention?

    I can tell you, I would be seriously annoyed to have my career potential disrupted by someone because they want attention all the time, and especially when they aren’t making me a priority when they expect that attention. It would not go over well with me, let’s put it that way.

    I think your work/life balance sounds pretty good, and the CEO role doesn’t sound like it is excessive in its travel demands, either. Then again, I’m self-employed, and I have worked round the clock for months on end at times. And when I was an employee, I worked very long hours and had a decided lack of work/life balance.

    In short, I think your husband’s expectations are unreasonable. I’d second Allison’s suggestion of marriage counseling.

    1. Bird names*

      Yeah, the bit with the video sounded like he needs her as cheerful and available background character in his life. She however also needs to be main character in her own life and that only works if he also can compromise (see weekend plans).
      I wish LW all the best in resolving this!

    2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      Yes. My ex complained about me working at the weekend, while he was still fast asleep or out playing tennis with friends. Totally controlling. He also panicked when I was 20 minutes late getting home from yoga, but expected me to be fine with him staying out till past nine while he was drinking with his colleagues and not bothering to let me know when he’d be home.

  7. Raida*

    For #1 – absolutely marriage counselling, because we can’t tell the amount of time you’re spending outside of work hours on work. Or if you are distracted at home, by work. Or if you choose work events over family ones.
    and so on and so forth.
    Or if all of these things have happened…. once each. Over five years. But they stuck in his head, creating a significantly skewed perception against which he holds your work behaviours.

    You did say that if you weren’t working you’d be doom scrolling – so regardless of work you two aren’t actively hanging out together in that time anyway.
    Overall, I think in counselling you’ll find he feels that you aren’t interested in him, don’t make an effort to plan stuff, while he’s arranging social stuff. “Oh but if he hadn’t planned that then we *could* have spent time together” is a deflection, if you already have time together at home after work and don’t utilise it to socialise with one another that’s telling. Why would you put in the effort on the weekend from his point of view? But then we also don’t know if you *have* planned weekend stuff together – or if you have! Or have but it’s actually more infrequent than you feel like it is…
    This is why counselling is so valuable – parsing out feelings and perceptions and facts and then the reasons for feelings and perceptions – huge stuff to work on together.

    The underlying feelings and sources of his concerns could be totally different to how they are being expressed, too! Could be he feels bad about how much he earns, or his family were pouring poison in his ear about his marriage, or he sees his mates’ marriages functioning differently, or this is just one thing in a long list where he felt unheard – which might be *a thing* for him from a childhood with a shitty parent…

    Worst case scenarios are he either refuses to go, or he goes and it turns out he’s long hidden strong core beliefs his wife shouldn’t work (or something) and it’s insurmountable – either way you’ll know and can decide what you need to do from there.

    But it’s certainly not a work *travel* issue.

    1. Worldwalker*

      I wonder how it would look gender-swapped? If a woman was complaining that her high-earning husband was spending too little time with her and too much time at work?

      That’s not only socially acceptable, that’s socially expected.

      1. LateRiser*

        But would the comment section immediately leap to “controlling!!”, I wonder?

        Like, the man’s father died and he’s clearly not coping well (isolating himself, drinking, probably feeling emotionally abandoned by the LW even if that’s not a fair assessment), but sure let’s just assume that he’s abusive.

        1. amoeba*

          Yeah, for me actually that’s the point here – I’d very much be “OK, but probably you actually work too much/value your work more than your family, listen to your wife!”. And honestly, that’s where I fall here as well, but impossible to really understand without more details!

        2. ecnaseener*

          I haven’t read every comment yet, but I haven’t seen anyone saying he’s abusive. What i do see a lot of is people saying this is controlling behavior – which is very much not something that only Abusers™️ are capable of.

          He has sympathetic reasons for not being at his best right now and for searching for something he can control, *and* he’s trying to control LW in ways that are unfair to her and she should not give in. Both things can be true at once.

        3. Sloanicota*

          Yeah I hope OP skips the comment section on this one and just listens to the measured advice given. We’re always going to skip to “abusive controlling you need to get out!!” in relationship stuff a little too fast, and since OP loves their partner and wants to stay married it’s unlikely to be helpful and might be quite hurtful to hear. Counseling is the advice given and the right one.

          1. CEOsoon*

            Nope reading every one of them… and you know what they do not ring true at all for me. He is not controlling at all, always supported my hobbies that are so undeniably masculine (to the point of people asking if it bothers him), that is why I am/was so confused. BUT for all
            those that feel like the shoe fits: take a good look at your relationship. My hubby never had a problem with couples counselling (see update below), the partners that say “you can go on your own” (like the ex of the friend whom is being taken to the cleaners soon), this relationship is over. Same guy bought her a toy in response of her complaining about lack of intimacy….. the “F… yourself” could as well have been written on the box.

        4. Insert Clever Name Here*

          It might not be abusive behavior in this particular situation (and indeed appears not to be based on OP/CEO Soon’s comments below), but it absolutely can be a symptom of abusive behavior in another situation — I don’t think it’s unreasonable for that to be pointed out by the comment section.

        5. Adds*

          I agree. I didn’t read any of that as controlling behavior. I read it as a married couple who were having a hard time meaningfully connecting with each other after one of them had a traumatic life event (the passing of their father). Which completely tracks, and, I think, is pretty normal and not abusive.

          Honestly, the whole thing from “you didn’t pay attention to me even though I was wearing headphones and was also unavailable,” to “I think 2 weeks of travel is a lot” reads someone who is looking for connection but isn’t seeing the part they play in the situation yet and only sees the other party’s actions as the sticking point as to why they’re disconnected. Especially if the shift in job duties happened around the same time as the passing of Husband’s father. I can see how in his mind, it’s not the loss of dad that’s causing the emotional upset, but LW’s new position at work. “I’m lonely and I miss my spouse. There are these new demands on their time and as they transition into the new position the demands will only become more and I will always miss my spouse and be lonely, and we’ll always be disconnected. I am scared.” This, of course, isn’t necessarily the truth of the situation and it certainly doesn’t excuse poor behavior or him being ugly to LW (which wasn’t stated as being a thing but thought I’d toss that out there anyway).

          This is something that marriage counseling could 100% help with (provided everyone actually participates in good faith). Or even individual counseling, if either party finds they may benefit from that.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah, I think if he refuses marriage counselling that would be significant and OP should hold firm on that. I also agree that there should be some focus on deliberately planning social time together; whenever couples plan nothing because being at home simultaneously is considered being together, there is always amazement that everyone ends up on devices instead of interacting, but it’s inevitable if you think about it.

    3. Justin D*

      Yeah I agree, taking a much more demanding job is something that spouses oftentimes need to weigh in on, especially when it’s as demanding as acting CEO. That can turn into a 24/7 job. He’s probably also somewhat controlling or needy on top it though.

  8. Feeling Feline*

    Regarding to “strong personality”. We had a “strong woman” once. She once expressed her strength by routinely being abusive toward people of colour. Once her excuse of being abusive toward men of colour because she “doesn’t like boys “. She particularly targeted queer women of colour despite of that claim.

    Anecdotal, but I suspect this isn’t rare.

    1. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      Also anecdotal, but there’s a report over at NY Mag on the woman who threw a burrito bowl at an employee and was then sentenced to work at a fast food place; she spends the article avoiding responsibility, claiming it’s her “Gemini Italian” self, talking about her own self-image as a working mother. It’s very revealing of how people drape themselves in an armour of their perceived self-hood to avoid inner conflict.

      1. Orv*

        I felt bad for the people at the restaurant she was sentenced to work at. Imagine being told your job is so awful that people are forced to do it as a punishment. Imagine working with someone who doesn’t want to be there, to the extent that she’s only there because a judge ordered her to.

        1. JustaTech*

          At the soup kitchen where I used to volunteer we used to occasionally get “volunteers” who were there to complete court-ordered community service.
          Some of them were enthusiastic workers who really wanted to do a good job and were very open about why they were there (usually DUI).
          And then there were the people who clearly thought the whole thing was beneath them, did a very half-baked job and were just completely checked out (not a super safe thing in a kitchen full of novices with knives). Some of them might have been ruder, but I got the impression that if you were a complete jerk or slacker on your community service it would get reported back to the judge.

          Overall it was described as a “very good” option for community service (indoors, with snacks and a bathroom, unlike picking up trash on the side of the road).
          So the job doesn’t have to be completely terrible for a judge to use it as a “learning experience” – but in that case it clearly was intended as a punishment.

    2. CEO Soon*

      Yeah, also had a “strong personality” manager…. she would cry at least once every two weeks, clash with the bosses, and never admit any fault if something went wrong. She was also super upset that we got the same % of raise once. She would have gotten more in monetary value because of the higher salary. Also got upset that my name was mentioned one too many times at the year end function.

      Most often than not the “strong personalities” suffer the biggest inferiority complex, super insecure and need to put others down to make themselves look better.

      1. Adams*

        I had the question here. A little more context. She came from a supervisory role (not management, think key holder), into an entry level role. The company at the time was known for its growth and opportunities, so I imagine that’s why she accepted an entry level role. I had significantly more, and better experience(GM, training, and some recognition). Think fine dining versus a fast casual restaurant. She felt that I didn’t deserve to be in a higher position, which she did vocalize. She was VERY different around our higher ups than she was with me and the entry level coworkers. She didn’t like to listen to me in particular and wanted to do things her way, and I was also very blunt, and wasn’t open to doing anything she wanted. So we clashed. I also found the change in behavior around higher ups frustrating, admittedly, because they would comment on it, but it wasn’t my experience. And I was immature and would react like a dummy, instead of letting it roll off my back and not worrying about it. Her behavior did extend to other people, but because we worked closely together, most of the negative behavior was aimed at me. I did work on fixing the relationship, and when I eventually left, we were on very good terms. I’ve worked on my shortcomings a lot in the years since and can confirm that my delivery and willingness to listen to others has greatly improved. I can always be better, but it’s something I’m aware of now. I’m also much more conscious of my facial expressions, thankfully!

    3. Never the Twain*

      I (in the UK) had a colleague who took no account of coworkers’ feelings with the often-expressed reason “I’m a Yorkshireman, so I can’t help being blunt” (for non-UKers, the archetypal Yorkshire citizen “says what he likes and likes what he bloody well says”, which self-identifies as fierce independence). This didn’t go down too well, and finally dwindled away shortly before his departure following the comments of two colleagues:
      “Well, you obviously can’t help being something that rhymes with blunt, at least”
      “Ah, you see, I come from Lancashire [a rival county just over the hills from Yorkshire] so I don’t feel so helplessly constricted in my behaviour.”
      Sadly, I was neither of those colleagues.

      1. pandop*

        As a Yorkshire Lass, I love those comments. There’s nowt so irritating as a ‘professional Yorkshireman’.

      2. Feeling Feline*

        Oh boy. You reminded me of a person I know who used “I’m just Irish” as excuse of being constantly rude, abusive and unprofessional. When three other Irish immigrant colleagues gave her this massive smack down about it, it was spectacular.

        1. Culture shock*

          Was she actually Irish or just Irish American? In my experience as an immigrant to Ireland, that is exactly the opposite of how Irish people tend to act. They’ll speak their mind only upon pain of death if they think it might possibly put someone out. And while there are individuals who may act differently, it’s certainly not a trait I’d apply as broad stereotype to the Irish!

          1. Ellis Bell*

            It’s not an Irish thing in particular; like the Yorkshire example up above, some people like to make their unpleasant personality the fault of where they come from. I had a conversation with a parent last week of school who refused to take any personal responsibility, or encourage any in her child because of the city we live in: “That’s what (regional identity) people are like!” and when I said I was from this city, and that’s not even slightly accurate: “Oh you’re a teacher, you’re not a real (regional identity)”. Okay then, reality has been defended I guess?

            1. Culture shock*

              Oh, I know it’s not an Irish thing in particular. I meant that it’s an odd thing for an Irish person to say given there isn’t even a stereotype about Irish people speaking plainly or anything like that.

              1. Ellis Bell*

                Oh yeah it’s definitely odd, an assertion that’s not even relying on a stereotype. When I’ve come across it, people are actually talking about the tiny circles within the wider culture i.e. “My whole family are rude, and they’re Irish and therefore I consider it a part of where I’m from”. Meanwhile all the neighbours, who are too polite to say anything, are praying for the entire family to move away.

          2. Irish Teacher.*

            Have you seen the Aldi ad that plays on that? The one with the guy who has smoke blowing in his face and keeps insisting, “oh no, it’s fine. I like the smoke. I don’t want to move at all.”

            But yeah, that’s not to say Irish people can’t be rude and obnoxious, just that to say we can’t help it is ridiculous.

            To get back to the original point, I think that people who describe themselves as having “strong personalities” are more likely to be a problem than those who are described that way by others. People who boast about how “I have a strong personality” have a high chance of meaning “I’m a bully,” whereas people who are described that way by others…well, I’d say it depends on how many people say stuff like that. If one person says it, as seems to be the case with the LW, it’s likely to be that person complaining because they didn’t get their way. If numerous people are saying it…it probably says something about the person’s behaviour.

            1. Feeling Feline*

              What you described definitely is closer to my experience with actual Irish, so polite that I’m constantly worried I might have secretly offended them and they are too polite to express it. I felt it was A Lot when the other Irish nationals finally had enough with her.

          3. Feeling Feline*

            Irish Irish. I agree with you, most Irish I know are ridiculously polite. We are definitely not in US though, so I can’t comment on the Irish American stereotype.

        2. anonymous anteater*

          I have a colleague who insists ‘Us Greek people are just very direct’ to excuse her habit of rude, unconstructive criticism. She would even imply that we just had to deal with it in the name of inclusion and diversity.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      On the other end of the strength spectrum, we had a colleague who would overreact, make demands, and then throw up her hands, always concluding that “I am just SO sensitive”. This was always said with an undercurrent of pride, and I was always left wordless, and came away from these conversations feeling like I’d just been characterised as some sort of unfeeling bastard. This was odd for me and my colleagues because a big part of our jobs is helping people and listening yet it was unusual for anyone to imply they were more sensitive than anyone else, while they were steadfastly refusing to listen to others. She decided to leave eventually and I was almost as glad for her as I was for the rest of us.

      2. Worldwalker*

        There seems to be some people who have a weird pride in their flaws. They’re sensitive, they’re short-tempered, they’re afraid of dogs, whatever: all things that one would seem to want to correct, not revel in.

        1. Orv*

          I’ve been around people who seemed weirdly proud of their *allergies*, as if an allergic reaction were somehow fashionable to have.

    5. MomTo3*

      My 4 year old can make toast, cereal waffles, quesadillas, nachos, pb/other spreadable sandwiches, cold cut sandwiches or roll ups, things like that with minimal help (I don’t let her take things from the hot toaster yet, but once out she does her own butter, syrup, etc). She can get yogurt or fruit for herself. She could make a fairly balanced meal on her own, if she had to.

    6. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah. 99% of the time “strong personality” is a euphemism for “I’m a jerk who runs roughshod over other people, never apologizes for it, and acts offended when other people call me out on it.”

      1. Antilles*

        That’s totally true and I personally blame management for letting it go on. The correct management answer to someone justifying their jerk behavior with strong personality is the work-version of “…and that matters how?”.
        It doesn’t matter if someone is naturally aggressive or short-tempered or what have you – when you’re at work, it’s on you to figure a way to control that and be a calm professional businessperson who gets along with other team members.

        1. JustaTech*

          I remember ages ago Anthony Bourdain talking about he knew he was being a jerk on his TV show when the crew started to refer to him as “The Talent” – because in show business there is a lot more leeway given to “The Talent” as far as behavior, because the show literally can’t go on without them.

          However, he considered it a *bad* thing to be called “The Talent”, and an indication that he needed to adjust his behavior, not something to be celebrated.

      2. Butterfly Counter*

        In the classes I teach, I can come across a variety of personalities. Some of which I would 100% say are “strong personalities.” Basically, these are people who aren’t shy and very willing to share their opinion on various topics. As a teacher in a discussion, I love these students because they get the ball rolling in class and allow for some of the more shy students to either agree or disagree with.

        Most of the time, these students with strong personalities are respectful, kind, and thoughtful as well. They’re just outgoing and willing to engage with others and not afraid of their own opinions.

        I suspect, however, that those people who self-identify as “strong personalities” are using that as their excuse to be rude and thoughtless of others.

    7. foofoo*

      My mother is one of those people who claims she has a strong personality and it upsets and bothers men because she stands up for herself.

      Given how we’ve seen her get ostracized and driven out of so many environments (volunteer groups, jobs, etc) and how my sister and I grew up with her, we concluded that she’s not a strong personality or strong woman, she’s just bossy and pushy and used to getting her way. Sure, she can stand up for herself at times, but most of the time she’s just running roughshod over anyone that gets in her way and chalking it up to them being the problem, not her.

      (I’m well aware of how “bossy” is used to discredit strong women, trust me, that’s not the issue here, she’s actually bossy and demanding, I’ve worked with her on things and she orders and barks at people like they’re indentured servants and she’s about to lay the smackdown on you if you don’t do what she says immediately, and it can be anything from doing chores around the house to telling you to stand up straight and suck your tummy in.)

  9. Kella*

    OP1, I agree with Alison’s suggestion of marriage counseling. A big thing to talk about: It sounds like the two of you have somewhat conflicting goals or expectations. Negotiating about how to get both of the goals met in ways that work for both of you will be key. Some things I noticed:

    –You say you’re struggling financially and you want to take this job to help solve that problem. It’s unclear if money is also a priority for your husband but he doesn’t want to lose even more time with you. Your priority is financial stability, his is time with you.

    –You seem to have conflicting views on how to make time for each other. He does his own thing but then expresses that he wishes you could’ve spent more time connecting with him. You seem to assume that if he’s doing his own thing, you shouldn’t interrupt that. Where does he want connection time to go? How does it get set up or initiated?

    –His requests for time and connection seem consistent but I noticed that in your list of contributions to the household, you didn’t mention time you dedicate to actively connecting with him. What counts as “spending time” with him in his mind? Are there ways you can ensure that this time happens, even when you are less available due to work?

    To me, it sounds like it’s absolutely possible to work out these problems without you having to pass up this job. But making sure both of your needs are met will be necessary to make that happen.

    1. Insert Clever Name Here*

      These are great suggestions. Best of luck OP — I’m rooting for you and your family!

  10. Get counseling*

    #1- tons to unpack here but echoing the call for counseling – marital and/or individual. I’ve worked closely with several C Suite moms and the support they get from their husbands is more than making breakfast and lunch. The travel is minimal (does he ever travel for work?) and the safety of a foreign city highly depends on where you are going but is likely not an issue. What is the real issue?

      2. Gamer Girl*

        Bingo. Taking the statement at face value, it also smacks of complete ignorance of the wider world. She’s going to a trade conference, ffs, not Antarctica.

        Over time, though, I strongly suspect that he’s going to trot out a “poor me, she’s leaving me all alone, probably to cheat on me because she ‘never’ wants to spend time with me!” narrative….

    2. sparkle emoji*

      Yes. I’m a child of a mom with work travel demands much greater than LW. There were some months growing up where she was away more than she was home. She was probably still technically primary caregiver when she was home, but my parents split duties pretty evenly. My dad was involved at my school in the years where my mom’s career was too demanding, and was the main school drop-off pick up person. He built special routines with us so we could enjoy her travel time even though we missed her. My dad is someone who is comfortable having a wife who is independent and a higher earner than him. Someone, whether its the other parent, or a grandparent or whatever, needs to be willing to take on that type of role for a mom to do a role with heavy travel.

    3. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      Taylor would say, “Blake would say that I did it. But he/she would be lying.” And if Blake were asked, “What would Taylor say?” Blake would say, “Taylor would say that I did it. But he/she would be lying.”

      I don’t see how this would be any help at all.

      1. Sudsy Malone*

        The post is a joke in reference to a classic riddle where you’re facing two guards, one who always lies and one who always tells the truth, and need to get a piece of information from them. The answer is to ask one of them what the the other would say, and then do the opposite.

  12. KateM*

    “The first trip is 11 days long”
    “me being away for what he calls “two weeks” ”

    If those 11 days are from Monday of one week to Thursday of next week (or similarly from Tuesday to Friday), then you ARE away for almost two full work weeks, during which he has to work and take care of all household. So he is not wrong here IMO.

    1. Shrimp Emplaced*

      Yeah, saying “what he calls ‘two weeks'” as if that’s incorrect was an odd detail or phrasing that seems to be emblematic of their underlying, foundational level of miscommunication. I hope OP and husband agree to go to counseling — it may really help them talk about what they want their work-life balance to look like as a family and how that can help inform how they go about building a more financially secure future.

    2. Justme, The OG*

      Ok, and? That’s what partnership and parenting is. I think that nobody would bat an eye at a man away for two weeks while the wife/mom was taking care of everything for that time.

      1. amoeba*

        I absolutely would – if the man hadn’t discussed that with the mother first and she had agreed to take on that additional (hard!) responsibility. And he’d done everything possible in advance to make it as easy as possible for her. “Oh sorry, can’t help it, work, bye” would definitely not be acceptable.

      2. Dek*

        I think it’s just that the phrasing implies that he’s overreacting by saying she’s gone for two weeks.

        1. Fluffy Orange Menace*

          Right. She’s thinking “but 2 weeks is 2×7 = 14 days, and I’m not gone THAT long!”

    3. Dancing Otter*

      Two weeks is 14 days, which is over 25% more than 11 days. That’s not a trivial exaggeration.
      By itself, this would be nit-pick-y, but it seems part of a pattern for his exaggerating all his complaints.
      The worst argument I ever had (it got physical) was over a demand to pay attention when there was nothing for me to pay attention TO. Attention needs to be mutual. If mere physical presence counts for him, it should count equally for her; how is watching a video with headphones *not* ignoring her?

      1. Antilles*

        If I was out of town from Monday to the following Thursday, I’d absolutely casually describe it as “I’m gone for about two weeks”. It wouldn’t even occur to my wife to rules-lawyer Technically Correct the fact that it’s only 11 days. If anything, I suspect she would also call it two weeks to describe it because for practical purposes, that’s close enough.

      2. KateM*

        He needs to do duties of both parents for two work weeks. Generally, there are much more things that need to be taken care of during a work day – for example, as someone mentioned above, if OP is the parent who always drives their kid, now husband has to do that; and it is possible that the reason OP always drives is that husband’s job doesn’t let to do that easily.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      ….So? It’s two weeks, not two months. And it’s planned well in advance. Plenty of time to arrange play dates for the kid, babysitting, carpooling, all of that good stuff, if he needs help or a break.

    5. KitKat*

      And during which… he might miss you? A continuous 11 day trip (as opposed to a few shorter trips adding up to 11 days) would be a big deal in my family.

      1. Clisby*

        But (unless I’m misreading the letter) she *already* takes the 11-day trip as part of work. The additional 4-day trip is the change.

  13. CEO Soon*

    Hi everyone, OP to story 1 here:

    Here are some extra details: He has a higher income than me but not by much (this lowkey pisses me off, because no matter what I do, I never seem to turn the tables, always just 1k away from it). He had to show me how to change diapers (he grew up with 3 younger siblings). We do actually talk a lot, at least 1 times per week over wine/beer, our WhatsApp chat is constantly active with memes and other small communication . We have been married for 10 years, together for 12 and friends for 15. We both come from broken homes, BUT in his there would be screaming and flying objects, in mine there was just cold silence.

    We actually had a discussion yesterday and came to the same conclusion that we need therapy. We did go to couples counselling at the beginning of the year to learn about communicating better, but our medical aid is depleted, and we currently cannot afford it. (but Bonus time is around the corner September for me so there will be a good chunk going into this)

    We decided that we will first go to individual counselling, as we both have problems that need to be addressed first, like alcoholism (which we both struggle with, highly functioning but non-the-less) and sorting out our personal issues. We realised that we struggle to communicate because we do not really know what our own problems are. For example, my husband is in deep denial about his feelings regarding his family, and I desperately need to learn stress management. Once we figure out that part, we believe that things should work themselves out with just a couple of refined communication lessons.

    We further decided that we will make Saturday mornings family time, starting with gardening this week.

    He did explain to me that he is deeply afraid that I will leave him and always has been, loosing his father and family has kicked that into overdrive and has made him more clingy.

    The reason why the thought of divorce upsets me so much is because I sometimes feel that we would be better off just staying friends (like before) with each having their individual freedom, but in the end it is just another way of running from my problems.

    1. Feeling Feline*

      I hope all goes well. Sounds like both of you are highly insightful people who are taking steps in addressing the underlying issues here. I have to say though, I’m a little amazed that someone of your combined income would find couples counselling prohibittedly expensive: makes me wonder who can afford it.

      1. CEO Soon*

        The ever prevailing health care issue, especially mental health care …. And the vicious cycle of alcoholism. “Can’t stop drinking because I can’t get help, can’t get help because I spend too much on booze”. AA where I live is a joke too.

        1. Shiny Penny*

          Just wanted to mention: I have a dear friend for whom AA has been a lifesaver, and they say a ton of meetings are now Zoom meetings since Covid. Like, my friend regularly “attends” a weekly meeting in New York City, and we do not live anywhere near New York City. So if local meetings aren’t helpful there are now a lot of alternatives.

          Also, best wishes. May this be the brief rough patch you both look back on with love and pride.

          1. Shrimp Emplaced*

            Seconding this! I pretty much only go to Zoom meetings, and I don’t just stick to my area. Regardless, NYC has so many terrific meetings (nyintergroup.org) so you can try a bunch and see what works for you.

          2. Lightbourne Elite*

            Yes! Google AA Online Intergroup for a huge list of fully online meetings. There’s also a spreadsheet floating around of atheist and agnostic online AA.

        2. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

          There are alcohol/substance use groups that are not AA as well. I think SMRT recovery is fairly widespread, as well as other groups such as Right Turn. Many locales (particularly big cities) have more independent groups, and the transition to virtual can open up a lot more options.

          1. Florence Reece*

            Just to add to options: I have gained a lot of benefit from an app called Reframe. It uses a roadmap that gives daily non-judgmental insights about alcohol reliance and how your body and thought process are impacted by drinking (and healed by drinking less/quitting). There are a number of features (reflections, tracking drinks, calculating how much money you’ve saved) that you can engage with or totally ignore. There’s anonymous community support boards, and virtual meetings every day where you can share your thoughts or just join to listen without needing to share at all.

            It is a paid app, but IMO it’s not wildly expensive (I think it’s like $115 for a year?) and there’s a 7-day free trial. It might be a good first step before joining community groups, especially if turmoil at home means you’re less emotionally prepared to face strangers and bare your heart to them right now.

            Good luck, OP. <3

        3. I Have RBF*

          I have known several alcoholics, including one who died of it. AA is not the only game in town for recovery from alcohol. For many people, it’s too religious. Also, instead of taking control back from booze, you just give it to a “higher power”, which does nothing to solve the problem of not being in control of your own life.

        4. allx*

          CEO Soon, I am not an AA fan either (and, among other criticisms, it can be problematic for people who are well-known in their professions/communities), but I also knew for many, many years that I over-consumed booze. A few years ago I found my way to the “100 Day Sober Challenge” (Tired of Thinking About Drinking) which is free, on-line, anonymous, meeting-free, accountable, sober support with an international following. Maybe it could be something to do while waiting for your health care to sort out.

    2. Bird names*

      Thanks for chiming in, CEO soon. Your plans sound solid imo, especially starting with individual therapy and then moving on to joint.
      I want to point out the disconnect regarding the recent family situation.
      It is completely understandable if he had to cut abusive family off. I’m certainly not going to judge him for that.
      But he made the active decision to do that, as far as I can see. To make you want to stay however he cannot constantly pressure you about it: “Are you going to leave me? How about now? What about now?” That is the surest way to make you want to run for the hills, ironically assuaging his fear of you leaving by creating the worst case scenario himself. He may feel helpless in that regard, but he will have to learn to sit with and heal these feelings instead of grasping to control the impossible (whether another person wants to stay around or not). That is likely super difficult for him, especially in case your own upbringing means that you learned to solve a lot of stuff by yourself (also understandable, he may feel shut out however). It is a tangled issue for sure. I wish the both of you good luck, maximum grace on both sides and honest but kind conversations!

    3. CEO Soon*

      Quite honestly, I have the sneaking suspicion that he is subconsciously using weaponized incompetence to keep me from going. I have witnessed his capabilities of being a parent, he also took care of his siblings for the longest time.

      I told him yesterday that I cannot help him with his abandonment issue, it’s been 12 years and the longest we have been apart is 11 days.

      1. Bird names*

        Yes, he will need to find other ways to cope with his anxiety. You cannot make the fear go away for him, staying around 24/7 would just mean putting a band-aid on it. And I suspect that also overshadows your time spent together, because while it (hopefully often) is for the pleasure of your company, at other times you may simply act as a security blanket for him. The latter likely feels dismissive, even if he will feel like he is desperately grasping for your attention then.
        If he is open to address that in therapy it will be very challenging at first for him, but you both will be grateful for the freedom you can gain this way!

      2. Cmdrshprd*

        One thing to try and keep in mind is that your husband can be wrong on lots (most?) things but still be right or at least not wrong on some things.

        I’m specifically talking about your comment:

        “it’s been 12 years and the longest we have been apart is 11 days.”

        11 days is not an insignificant amount of time to be away from your spouse. It’s not super long, but it’s not super short either.

        This is speaking as someone who has done long-distance with a partner (now spouse).

        Since 2015 we have not been apart longer than 6 days (+/- a day) not because we are clingy but because my longer trips especially 2+ weeks would be expensive and we would want to do them together.

        We do spend time apart, more than 11 days a year but in smaller batches, of 2-5 days. Long weekends with friends visiting family alone, work trips etc… This year was probably the most time apart we each spent about 2 weeks at our parents house due to various medical issues, but each of us came home for 2/3 days in between because we needed/wanted to be with each other for support.

        My parents (married 25+ years) since doing about 1 to 2 years of long distance at the beginning of their relationship I don’t think have spent more than 2 weeks apart, most times it was due to a parent a passing in a foreign country.

        All that not to say you are wrong and your husband is right.

        But that not being thrilled about being apart for 11 days is not unheard of. It does not mean you shouldn’t go.

    4. Sharpie*

      That sounds like you’re a good couple overall who can figure it out, with a bit of help. Being aware enough to say you need outside help is the biggest step, and making time together, especially without a counsellor suggesting it, shows that you’re both willing to work at making this relationship work and keep working.

      A good marriage is one that each person in it works at building. You got this!!

    5. Ellis Bell*

      This sounds amazingly productive and timely, a lot of couples don’t arrive at marriage counselling until it’s too late whereas you both sound invested. Fwiw I know my old marriage counsellor would have prescribed more than just the one in person interaction a week, even though that sounds like a valuable touchstone (as do the memes). I mention it here in case it’s food for thought; he said the vast majority of issues he sees could be prevented by people having more fun/ deliberate one on one time because it makes people feel important to one another and it prevents little problems growing into big ones if you are talking frequently. Planning time together can even be done from afar when on business trips for when you get home. All positive thoughts your way.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        In addition, it’s important to have both family time with the kiddo and individual one-on-one time separately. If you have a support network (friends or family who would be willing to babysit, or actual babysitters), now is probably a good time to reach out to them so you have an opportunity for that one-on-one time.

    6. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      You really need this promotion, because money is a roadblock in you both getting enough counselling, especially when you both suffer from alcoholism.

      1. Deborah Vance, Vance Refrigeration*

        I agree! OP and husband seem to be on the right path about working things out, but the extra money will definitely help. Also, just seconding what was already said: the four extra days of travel really aren’t a lot and OP shouldn’t turn down the promotion because of it.

    8. pandop*

      I am not sure how old your daughter is, but when I was in my early teens (ish) my Mum took a job that meant her working away Monday-Friday for several months (not a lot of choice in the matter, we needed the money), so it was just me and Dad at home.

      Now, being a chef, there were limits to the weaponised incompetence my Dad would have been able to pull, but he wasn’t that type anyway.

      But, as I was only 19 when we lost him, I do look back on that time of just me and Dad, and treasure it. We didn’t do anything in particular differently to normal home life, but Dad being there for things like helping me plait my hair for school etc, is nice to remember.

      Perhaps you can sell it as bonding time?

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        I said this earlier, but I also have very fond memories of bonding time with my dad when my mom was traveling for work. We’d do things like walk to the bakery, get pastries, eat them in a park, and then walk home, and while it can’t have been more than a handful of times a year, I LOVED it, and would honestly kind of look forward to mom’s business trips.

    9. MsSolo (UK)*

      One thought on the alcohol and spending time together – if you find you’re falling into the trap of ‘having a drink together’ feeling like the baseline for spending time together, can i suggest getting into really fancy hot chocolate? I appreciate in your circumstances it’s not a straight swap, but if you can sub it in for the last drink of the night / what you have during a shared activity the indulgence level can help manage some of the psychological ‘treat’ urges, and gives you a little shared ritual time together.

    10. Harper the Other One*

      CEO Soon, thank you for this update. Some of the dynamics in your post and your follow-up rang true to my own marriage. We have done marriage counseling and both do individual and it has helped, although it’s slow, so I’m very glad to hear you are going ahead. Your Saturday plans for family time are also a great idea!

      I just wanted to add one thing about the dynamic of him clinging to you as a primary social contact – this was also the case for us and was very wearing on me. I think in addition to time together, it’s worth establishing that each of you should have a time where you do a hobby/recreational activity solo, and that his should be one that involves some social contact. It’s not sustainable to be the one and only support for your partner IMO, and making a few more social contacts will help him more than he thinks – it certainly did for my partner!

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Seconding the hobby/recreational/personal social time.

        I had to break up with a guy who competed with my hobbies. I have a bunch of hobbies and he had one or two very casual ones. He wanted to spend a lot of time doing nothing together. I wanted to spend some time doing nothing together but then some other time doing . . . something together. But when we tried to do things together he’d feel hurt that I wasn’t more focused on him, because he wasn’t actually interested in anything. I got tired of providing all the enthusiasm and told him it wasn’t going to work out.

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          I third the hobbies suggestion! In addition to providing social contact, I have found that breaking bad habits can be a lot easier if you substitute something for the bad habit. So, as OP mentioned above that they both have alcohol issues and spend too much $$ on alcohol, instead of just saying, “I should stop with the alcohol,” say something more like, “Whenever I get the urge to buy/drink alcohol, instead I will go running/cycling/play with my kid,” or whatever. (Is this an AA idea? I think maybe?) If your husband’s primary social activity is drinking with his friends, see if he can convince the friends to do something that doesn’t involve drinking. (Yes, I realize that might not be possible but it’s still worth a try.) OP said AA is a joke near them, which is too bad, but I think one of the benefits of AA is that you can make social connections with others that do not involve alcohol whatsoever and also that you learn *how* to make connections that do not involve alcohol.

          And give yourselves some grace. You will not solve your problems overnight, and you might find yourself making some improvements but also sliding back into old habits – 2 steps forward, 1 step back. Keep reminding yourself that those backwards steps are not failings on your parts but are part of being human. Keep making tiny steps forwards and you will still have some improvements in your life even if you make some backwards leaps at times.

    11. The other sage*

      Thank you for this update. The situation you are in sounds hard, but you and your husband sound strong enough to be able to heal your emotional wounds and get the relationship you deserve. Good luck on that!

    12. loggerhead*

      Thanks, OP.

      I want to note something re: divorce. It’s not running from your problems. It changes the problems you have. Sometimes divorce is actually the best way to preserve your co-parenting relationship (source: I’ve been there). You don’t have to have that option on the table yet, but remember that a solution that helps you two retain the ability to make decisions together about your kids is a good one. I am glad you will go to counseling individually. It’s important not to prematurely cut off any ideas right now. Preserve your sense of your own freedom so you can really be honest during this process.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        I was just trying to figure out how to articulate this: Divorce is not always running from problems. Sometimes–and I don’t see this here, at least not based on what the LW has said so far–the problem is that y’all are fundamentally not a good fit and divorcing would remove that, remove some other problems, and create some new problems, but since we’re all going to have some problems in our lives the trick is to find out which ones and how much of them we can live with.

        But this update sounds like a very solid plan.

      2. Observer*

        It’s not running from your problems.

        While that is often true, it’s not always the case.

        And I do think that *at this point*, based on what the LW says, it would be “running away” from her problems while creating a new set of problems.

        Could that change? Could it turn out that in the long run walking (or “running”) away from her problems is a good idea? Yes, to both. But at this point what the LW makes it pretty clear that there are a lot of better ways to deal.

        Individual counseling is an *excellent* idea, because a lot of what is going in here has nothing to do with their relationship anyway.

    13. Insert Clever Name Here*

      Best of luck, OP — it sounds like you both have good heads on your shoulders and both want to figure this out. I’m rooting for you!

      1. el l*

        Yes, sounds like they’re at least on the right path.

        FWIW, two pieces of work advice: Yes, OP, sounds like you have as healthy an attitude about work time as can be expected for a soon-to-be CEO. They’re just his perception.

        But no on one thing – retire by 55? Not many people can get that done at a comfortable level these days. We’re a long ways away from the golden days of the stock market. Perhaps set a more realistic goal.

        1. Gumby*

          Eh, some people can and since soon-to-be-CEO is in upper management she probably has a decent salary. The family is probably saving aggressively for retirement if that is, in fact, a possibility.

          I’d suggest saving a little less for retirement if it frees up finances for therapy / current needs. And I am saying that as someone who has absolutely maxed out my retirement savings opportunities (401k, 403b, Roth IRA, SIMPLE IRA, whatever is available to me at the time) since I was fresh out of college and living in a shared house with 5 other people. So I’m a huge fan of retirement savings. But also, if spending some on therapy now pushes retirement to 60 but you’ll be a much happier and maybe healthier person – it might still be worth it.

        2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

          We are? The stock market is at all time highs. But that’s not usually what people mean when they say they’re retiring early. Doesn’t matter where the stock market it, matters how much I need to live and how much I have stashed.

          No idea why you think that’s an unrealistic goal. Like, becoming a CEO is an unrealistic goal for a lot of people, yet OP is there. She’s going to be a CEO at a nonprofit, maybe they have a banging pension. Also, there is no downside to setting that goal. “Oh, can’t actually retire at 55, but have saved so much I can retire at 58” is not failure.

          OP sounds ambitious and capable and I think she can do both. And tackle this marriage communication problem. And learn how to cope with her alcoholism.

    14. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Sending internet hugs if you want them, OP. When I read your post I was debating whether to comment. I could have written much of your post when my kid was that age and the underlying issue was addiction. I knew that and I couldn’t deal with it. I was always the higher earner, I traveled more than you do, and my husband never directly told me he didn’t like it. It was always hell when I got home, though, in some way.

      Your update about abandonment issues also rings very loud bells in my head. I spent 30 years trying to convince him I wasn’t going to leave, which meant I had to put up with whatever behavior he dished out to prove I wasn’t going to leave. It was not a healthy dynamic. We made huge strides through marriage counseling over the years and it didn’t *really* get better until he hit bottom and we both started 12-step work. I had lots of reasons for years why I couldn’t *possibly* do that. So many perfectly rational reasonable reasons. I’m very very good at avoidance.

      Thinking of you and hoping you find the help and support that’s out there.

    15. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh, so I was pondering one thing, and then you talked about your families of origin.

      He may be looking for quiet companionship – eg, watch the same show together, side-by-side, only talking briefly. It tends to be a more common thing in men (especially platonic male-male friendships), but it also is a thing in romantic relationships. And now I suspect it’s especially the case given his experience as a child with the yelling and screaming.

      Whereas you see the quietness as a threat, given your upbringing.

      So I think this is one thing to bring out explicitly in therapy and with each other – what can we do together that makes each other happy, and what expectations do each of you have about expressing that for yourself and recognizing it in the other.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        I would second discussing this in therapy!!! What does your best day together look like? What does your ideal family home look, sound, feel like? Based on your similar childhood experiences but very different families of origin, you may come up against some very different ideas about this (which is fine! Stuff like this is so much simpler to work out once it is SPOKEN).

    16. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I also wonder if he’s cautious that his “stepping up” in your absence is going to lead to those temporary responsibilities becoming his permanently. I’ve seen that happen with a week’s absence.

      I dealt with a lot of this when my previous job required week-plus travel. The infidelity paranoia did lessen with each trip, though it never fully went away.

    18. I should really pick a name*

      We do actually talk a lot, at least 1 times per week over wine/beer

      This is a good example of where counseling could be useful. He might not agree that this is “a lot”.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Also the wine and beer if both have issues with alcohol.

        Try having the chats without alcohol for a bit.

        But it does sound like you are both able to talk and figure out a way forward together. that’s huge. Good luck.

        Check back in at update time. We would love to hear how its going.

        1. Observer*

          Also the wine and beer if both have issues with alcohol.

          Very important!

          LW, I think your choice to garden together is an excellent idea.

        1. Insert Clever Name Here*

          FWIW I interpreted that as “at least 1 (of the many times we talk is) over wine/beer.” But if that’s not what OP meant then yeah, that is definitely not a lot!

    19. umami*

      So glad to hear you have a path forward! One thing I would suggest spending a little time unpacking with your therapist is your attitude toward compensation. If he has always made a little more, it is a positive that his income continues to outpace yours because it means neither of you are stagnant at your jobs. I sense a bit of resentment that you are not able to get to an amount higher than his, but I hope you can learn to not see compensation with your spouse as a competition to win, if that makes sense. IOW, be frustrated at your workplace if it is causing you to be under-compensated, not at your spouse.

    20. Somehow I Manage*

      Thanks for the update. I’m sending you both best wishes. You’re taking good steps forward, and knowing yourself and figuring out your own expectations is a solid way to go into some counseling together.

      Setting aside some time each week is awesome. In my own experience with my spouse, we’ve found ourselves being busy with work, home stuff, kids, etc. and our “together time” is sitting next to one another watching a movie. That’s great a lot of the time, but there are times we’ve needed to do something else together, just to reset and shake things up. A walk, a shared hobby, a DQ run. Your communication is going to be different and your bond will be different because you’re not just repeating the same pattern, even if that pattern is OK most of the time.

      Wishing you both great success! And do take the job!

    21. learnedthehardway*

      Sounds like you have a good plan to deal with the issues!! All the best in resolving them and moving forward, happier together!

    22. Householder*

      Being friends, being married, having individual freedom. None of these are mutually exclusive, unless one chooses to make them so.

    23. Huh*

      One thing I’ve found to be true about myself is that often the issues in my relationship are related to an internal (and usually irrational) fear that I have. Figuring out what those fears are and consciously working to change them has been invaluable for my relationship. His fears about losing you can come out in odd and surprising ways – him addressing his fears in therapy is a fantastic approach. The same will be true for you as well, but probably in different ways. Good work talking together and figuring out a plan!

    24. FavoRITA*

      I just want to thank you for replying to this post because the amount of jumping to conclusions and reaching I saw before coming to your response was astonishing. I had to go back and read the original letter make sure I hadn’t missed an entire section from the way people were commenting so definitively about your relationship. Good luck!

  14. NotASoloSport*

    Ugh. Covid, the gift that keeps on giving.

    As someone very high risk who is medically unable to mask and who has other medical issues that cause me to have symptoms all the time, I fear I will never be able to stop isolating and have no idea what to do about it because pretty much everyone else has given up (if they ever cared in the first place).

    It’s all well and good to say you have to take care of yourself, but that assumes you can.

    1. Observer*

      This sounds hugely frustrating. The problem is that even if people *do* care, it’s just not enough. It’s not just covid. And *so* many things are contagious before they are symptomatic, that there is simply no way you can depend on people *always* isolating when they are contagious. It’s literally not possible.

      I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t know if there *is* a good answer. But, I do sympathize. I hope that you can at least find some way to have some level of interaction with people beyond text.

  15. Nobby Nobbs*

    OP 2, you need to set yourself a personal safety policy, ie decide how you’re going to react to the next unsafe situation before it happens. Humans are notoriously crap at in-the-moment judgement calls, which is why we need rules, and you can make those rules for yourself!

  16. This One Here*

    My husband’s cousins Taylor and Blake are brothers, both attorneys (their other brother is a physician). It was amusing to imagine them as petty CSRs.

    1. [insert witty username here]*

      please tell me you often imagine them as power couple BFFs Taylor Swift and Blake Lively. ask them how it feels to share the names of two current pop culture icons.

  17. Irish Teacher.*

    LW2, while I’m really sorry you were put in this position, I think the truth is that the C-suite executive took more care than many people are currently taking. It sounds like they took multiple tests. Even the people I know who are being relatively cautious are mostly testing once and I suspect most people aren’t testing at all.

    And then there is the fact that people are often at their most contagious before they show any symptoms at all. And I don’t know what the rules are like where you are, but here, it’s now that you are supposed to stay home for five days after a positive test or until 48 hours after your symptoms go if you didn’t test and in my job, at least, covid now only lasts those five days and one needs a doctor’s cert to say you are still sick after that. The advice is to mask for another five days after that, but…I have seen exactly one person in my workplace wear a mask after returning from being out sick. So yeah, best to take precautions at all times and assume anybody around you could be contagious.

    This isn’t to say that the executive shouldnt have worn a mask at least, just that there are many people taking even less care than they did and even those who are being cautious may still miss things because they are asymptomatic or the test gives an inaccurate result.

    1. disconnect*

      Sorry, if they can’t take the simple steps of wearing a mask and allowing sufficient room for physical distancing, they still suck.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        The minute the C suite walked into the office, the Covid was in the air. Masking later for everyone else was too late. Too bad the Csuite person didn’t think nobody wants a cold either.

        1. Azure Jane Lunatic*

          I am going to respectfully disagree with you. Dose does matter with Covid exposure. Ideally zero exposure is best, but it’s still worth masking as soon as you realize someone else has a respiratory situation going on.

      2. J*

        Bingo. I’m so tired of people acting like their personal freedom is more important than not getting other people sick, or worse. I hate knowing that most people are selfish.

        1. I Have RBF*

          Seriously. I already hated working with people who came in sick due to one job that I had where everyone was always sick and no one had sick leave. Covid just cranked that up to 11. If a person is feeling lousy, at least they can wear a damned mask in public. It’s just a simple courtesy.

    2. JB (not in Houston)*

      I don’t know if it’s true that people are at their most contagious before they show any symptoms, but I do know that antigen tests aren’t 100% accurate even when you have symptoms. So if the exec knew she was sick with something she thought was contagious, only took an antigen test, and then couldn’t even bother to wear a mask, I don’t know how the fact that she bothered to take a test is supposed to make the OP feel better.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I don’t think the fact that she took a test should make the OP feel better, just that we cannot depend on other people masking when they have symptoms. Yes, they should but most people don’t so we have to assume that there will be people at work with covid.

        Like you say, antigen tests aren’t 100% accurate and people are contagious before they show symptoms and a lot of people don’t test at all, so…yeah, you just kind of have to assume in any group of people, some of them may have it.

        I mean, yeah, I’d love if everybody masked when they have symptoms but very few people do. Perhaps they all suck, but that isn’t really actionable for the LW or anybody else. We have to work with the situation we have.

        1. JB (not in Houston)*

          I guess I’m still not sure what is the point of saying “hey others are doing even less”? I don’t see how that helps the OP. She already knows that she can’t depend on other people masking. I think we might be saying the same thing (people should wear a mask, don’t count on others to protect you), but it seems like you had a point by saying the exec isn’t as bad because she tested but didn’t mask, and I am not picking up on it.

      2. Katara's side braids*

        Unfortunately most of the reliable sources I’ve looked at confirm that people are most contagious in the 1-2 days before they’re symptomatic, although that can obviously vary by person – for example, I’ve been infected 3 times, and each time developed symptoms within 36 hours of the most likely exposure event. Someone with a longer presymptomatic period has a higher risk of infecting people before they realize they’re sick.

    3. Toots La'Rue*

      This has been a major problem I’ve been seeing in my work/world, people only testing once and then being like “welp, definitely not covid!” and then going about life with symptoms of what they think is just a little cold. My husband and I just got over covid, and each of us took our first test when we were first symptomatic and not feeling well, both negative. Both took tests later (48 hours vs a week when I thought maybe I could confirm I was Totally Better) that were positive. Recommendation is still to test more than once!

    4. Long Hauler (Not the Trucker Kind)*

      If I’m sick and take a test for strep throat that comes up negative, I’m still sick even if it’s not strep. I shouldn’t bring my germs around others if at all possible. Testing doesn’t mean you can’t spread germs, so even if a COVID test is negative, if you’re sick you should stay home. If you can’t stay home from a lack of sick time, then physically distance yourself, wear a mask, and use hand sanitizer and wash your hands extra.

      That exec didn’t do the bare minimum to protect others from getting sick — that would be at least masking. They should’ve stayed home and rescheduled or turned it hybrid.

  18. Whyblue*

    #2 makes me wonder hownto handle this as a leader? For example, if a manager wants to have an important workshop on-site. because hybrid workshops have not been as effective in the past. Nowadays, in my company, it requires quite a bit of pressure and “no, this is not hybrid” to get everyone to come in, as people have moved further away and hate the commute.

    So what if a manager has applied that pressure and then gets sich with COVID symptoms on the day of the workshop. Not participating is not always possible, if their job is to ensure tangible results. Not coming in feels like a case of preach water and drink wine.

    Obviously, the manager should mask and keep a distance, but even that has limits – giving long presentations in a large room through a FFP2 mask doesn’t work too well. Should they hand out masks to all participants in case someone wants to mask? Give people the option to leave, even if that would derail the workshop? Do their presentation remote from the office next door?

    1. Jay (no, the other one)*

      It’s preach water and then drink it when it’s been contaminated. Not a good enough reason to expose people to a potentially fatal illness.

    2. Lily of the mountain*

      The standard shoud be that anyone who is sick should not attend in person, and that includes managers. No one should be required to be trapped in a confined space with a disease vector. Workshops can be rescheduled, run remotely, or cancelled depending on circumstances. But you should not be prioritising on-site participation in a workshop over people’s health and safety.

    3. ecnaseener*

      I mean, your “this is mandatory in-person” policy should absolutely include “unless you have a medical reason for needing to attend remotely.” Such as having a contagious illness or being unable to risk contagion from others. If you wouldn’t let a sick attendee call in, then yeah of course it’s going to feel hypocritical for a sick presenter to call in, because you should be letting sick attendees call in.

      I get that your preference is to take a hard line to get as many people in person as possible, but that doesn’t actually trump people’s health. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    4. Katara's side braids*

      I swear I don’t mean this flippantly; I know tone can be difficult to convey in internet comments. But the risk of someone developing long-term, debilitating complications from an illness that we still don’t completely understand and has very few available treatments is probably reason enough to reschedule the workshop, however logistically nightmarish it may be.

    5. WellRed*

      Postpone the workshop. Nothing you are doing is so important you have to power through and everyone.

      1. RC*

        Exactly. And/or, although this is crazy, knowing you have an important conference coming up, maybe be sure you are masking indoors everywhere for the week or two beforehand and don’t go anywhere super crowded, so you don’t get sick? Same way you wouldn’t go ATVing if you didn’t want to risk a broken leg for an important event? (And if you did it anyway and couldn’t attend, then it has to be rescheduled, just like you would if you had diarrhea or whatever. Humans are squishy and that’s just something that happens sometimes.)

    6. Nightengale*

      I have given long presentations in an N95 mask.

      (Not when I myself was sick. If I were sick than – postpone or present remotely if I were well enough. would be the options I would endorse). But I would also not be someone to pressure moving away from offering a hybrid option.

      I know there can be some issues with accessibility if the speaker is masked and these should be addressed as any other conflicting access need (which does not mean telling people not to wear masks.)

    7. Peanut Hamper*

      hybrid workshops have not been as effective in the past

      Then you need to get better at presenting hybrid workshops.

      I’m WFH and we have adapted to that situation. All the training I’ve gotten has been remote, all the training and mentoring I’ve given to new (and newerish) coworkers has been remote, and all the consulting I’ve done with them has been remote. And it has been just as effective, if not more (because we also have a record of what’s been going on) than in-person workshops.

      This is no excuse to expose somebody to a potentially fatal or life-changing disease.

    8. MsSolo (UK)*

      What would your contingency plan be if the manager had norovirus and couldn’t stop vomiting? Making events hinge on a single person is an issue regardless of the illness. There should always be options to postpone, or handover to someone else to run the event.

      1. Orv*

        This. There are a lot of things besides COVID that could force someone to stay home. What if he gets in a car accident?

        You need to improve the bus factor* of this situation.

        * Bus factor — the minimum number of people who would have to be hit by a bus before a business can no longer function.

        1. I Have RBF*

          Exactly. People act like being out for two weeks with Covid will destroy the company or something. If that’s true, then they are understaffed or overcommitted. If everyone’s bus number for their position is one, your company is fragile.

    9. Lady Danbury*

      “Don’t come in if you’re sick” should apply to absolutely everyone and people whose jobs lend themselves to working remotely and who feel well enough to work should be allowed to do so. I’ve actually sent people home in the past who came in obviously sick under a misguided impression that we had a work environment where taking sick time was frowned upon. In those instances, the individuals were happy to comply because they didn’t want to be at work sick but felt that they had to do to past toxic work environments. As a manager, I have a responsibility to create an environment that minimizes employees aren’t infecting each other with contagious diseases (to the extent reasonably possible), which also means modeling behaviour such as working from home or just staying home when I’m sick and encouraging employees to use sick leave not just with words but also with actions/policies/work expectations.

    10. Alice*

      Good job, the “tangible result” the manager has created in that case is me never trusting their judgment or character again.

  19. Irish Teacher.*

    LW3, do you need to find out which of them was at fault here? It sounds like the customer doesn’t want you to know and really, it sounds like there are enough problems with both of them that this doesn’t add much to your knowledge of them.

    I think how you address the poor service depends on what it was and what the customer wants and generally, I don’t think you need to know who gave poor service in order to address it. I assume you already apologised to the customer. Beyond that, is it possible to give them some kind of discount/free item/gift card? If the poor service was related to your processes, ensure those are up-to-date, but if it is just something like one of them was rude or unhelpful and you have apologised, maybe given them something like a giftcard and spoken to both Taylor and Blake about the need to be more helpful/more polite/whatever the issue was, then I think you have addressed the problem.

    It sounds like the customer doesn’t want anybody to face consequences, so addressing their complaint doesn’t require that.

    1. person*

      I think that given Taylor was one strike away from dismissal prior to this, it would be beneficial to know if it was them.

      1. OP, LW#3*

        Yes, it’s about holding staff accountable to the level of expectations we have for them. The customer was kind in their feedback and recognized it was not the typical level of service we provide.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          Assuming your workplace doesn’t have outrageous expectations, I think your bigger issue is the ‘group’ of the two slackers – they’re covering for one another. Typically this indicates to me that there is a level of unreasonable that they are holding together to fight against, I’m assuming this isn’t the case.. so why are they doing that? Blake can’t care THAT much about Taylor’s job unless they are work BFFs or dating or something. Can you schedule them separately so they’re surrounded by other employees who aren’t interested in covering for a low-performing coworker?

          1. MigraineMonth*

            It sounded like they were turning on each other, rather than covering for each other. Both have accused the other of being the one who screwed up with the customer.

      2. RedinSC*

        But also, given that Taylor was one strike away from dismissal and Blake one strike away from formal warning, and given that neither one is a reliable narrator, I might use this as the final strike for them both.

        Dismiss Taylor, and formally write up Blake. Maybe not the most fair, but minimally could this be the wake up call Blake needs to shape up? Seeing that consequences are real?

        1. Gumby*

          Agreed.

          Taylor either gave the poor customer service or lied about it. Either of which would be the final strike.

          Blake either gave poor customer service or lied about it – so second strike regardless.

    2. Worldwalker*

      I may be cynical, but it sounds to me that what the customer wants isn’t better service; it’s a discount. Maybe I read NAR too much.

  20. WhichSister*

    #5. I reside in the South now but grew up all over. I worked for a small “family” company and they hired someone from the NE. IT was my job to Oversee her training in the role.
    Every time there was a problem, her response was “that’s not how we do things in Jersey” or “that’s how we do it in jersey” . argue with a customer ? safe not balanced? can’t get along with other managers? it’s a Jersey thing.

    the sad thing is the owners, who were all born in, raised but. arely left the Sputh, all accepted it.as if New Jersey was a foreign country…

    1. Joana*

      Not that I’m saying any of them were like this, but considering stories I’ve seen and my own experiences, some people in other parts of the country really do think states they’ve never been to are foreign countries. Or at least in them. I’m from Maine and went to Viriginia on a school trip. Was in an elevator with some friends and got to talking to someone. They asked where we were from. We tell them we’re from Maine. The main points we got from those other tourists is they thought Maine was part of Canada and that we all lived in igloos. Which is really funny now, twenty years later, with us having summers reaching around 100F many days.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I grew up in New England and went to the Midwest for college. People were amazed when I said I would drive across 2 or 3 states to go to a weekend event.

  21. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    1. Agreeing on the counselling thing but also there’s maybe something that helped when me and my husband were at loggerheads about my job (I was travelling ridiculous hours, leaving home at 4am and not coming back till 7pm). We’re both very methodical people so I suggested we list down our grievances AND what we wanted the other person to do about it. The suggestions had to be achievable.

    Sounds unemotional but it worked for us. He wanted me to ultimately look for another job but in the short term to book a few days off and turn off the Blackberry at night/weekends. I wanted some time at home that was something we did together. We ended up playing multiplayer strategy games.

    Also he finally managed to get me to go to the doctor about the depression that was raging out of control in my head.

  22. Alicent*

    My boss gave the entire office COVID a couple years ago (except the two of us who were vaccinated because back then they were a bit more effective before the mutations; I work with a bunch of anti-vaxxers). He came to work coughing all over the place and blamed it on lung irritation from a project he was working on. The last interaction we had was him in my face showing me a video from some truck driver about why masks are dangerous. He was dead two weeks later and almost killed one of the other anti-vaxxers in our office. I take this stuff super seriously now and it took a literal death to make the rest of my office think it was a problem.

    Be safe out there.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      How are your coworker doing with precautions these days? I’m curious if the death had a lasting effect on their willingness to wear masks / get vaccinated / install proper ventilation, etc. or if it was temporary and they’re back to their old ways.

      1. Alicent*

        I think some of them got vaccinated after, but no one will talk about the elephant in the room so I’m not surprised. There’s a lot less push-back when clients ask us to wear masks and anyone with suspected COVID is told to stay home.

  23. Lola*

    LW3, are you normally doling out punishment based on customer comments without a way to verify what actually happened? That doesn’t sound like good management for a customer facing team. Depending on what kind of service this team offers and if you take on the general public, customer complaints can wildly misrepresent the interaction. If it’s a call center, for example, you could listen to recorded calls, and on ticket-based IT systems you could look up the history of the customer’s interactions.
    Please take a look into what you can do to verify what happened when a customer complains – you could have an employee who’s lying to protect themselves on an unfair system.

      1. OP, LW#3*

        No, we don’t “dole out punishment” based on customer complaints. We did start by asking Taylor and Blake (separately) if they remembered the customer that came in and asked for a specific supply. It was a neutral conversation. We always ask staff what happened, so we can provide additional training or consider procedure/policy updates.

        And this is an in-person service desk with shared logins to the software, so there’s no tracking by individuals.

        1. Dr. Rebecca*

          Okay, since we have you here, I want to press on something you said.

          You said they’re “not excited about their jobs and are not invested in ensuring clients receive the best service possible.” This isn’t a reasonable job expectation. Having them *give* clients the best service possible is, but the investment and excitement aren’t. I’d recommend concentrating on outcome–the client walks away satisfied–rather than intent. If you’re going to discipline them, it shouldn’t be for what’s in their minds while they’re working, it should be for their actions.

          As a professor, I don’t like every single student (sorry, I just don’t. They’re people, and some people I don’t like.) But I support and treat all of them equally, I give all of them equal opportunity, and I don’t withhold things or play UNfavorites with students I don’t like, and I’m pleasant and upbeat with all of them regardless of my personal feelings. Because that’s my job. If Taylor and Blake aren’t doing their jobs, focus on that.

          1. Benihana scene stealer*

            I think they are focusing on them not doing their jobs – that’s what this whole letter is about. Plus one is on a PIP and the other’s about to be so it doesn’t seem like this is about attitude You may be making too much of that one line in the op.

          2. JB (not in Houston)*

            I think might be focusing too much on the literal words she used and are missing the meaning. I doubt the OP cares what they have in their hearts. I think she cares about how they manifest those feelings. If an outside observer can tell that they are apathetic about their jobs and that they don’t care about providing a good experience to the client, then that’s a problem for a customer service role. How they treat customers and how they come across *is* part of their job.

            1. Peanut Hamper*

              Agreed. This is definitely a time when if Taylor or Blake want to move out of this position, they need to fake til they make it. But they don’t realize this (or it’s never been explained to them) or they just don’t care. It really doesn’t sound like they will be with this org much longer.

              What concerns me here the most about this situation is that there is no individual accountability built into the system. I hope OP looks at some ways to build that into the system, because that’s how you would avoid getting into this situation in the first place. Even just a paper form they have to fill out with their name, the client’s name, the date and time, and the nature of the client’s need could help. They’re providing supplies, so this might as well be documented somewhere.

              1. Observer*

                What concerns me here the most about this situation is that there is no individual accountability built into the system.

                I agree. Surveilling staff is one thing. But not having any way to know what each staff person is doing – and having to depend on other staff to inform you of these things – is not a good way to foster a healthy and mutually trustful work culture either.

          3. Not Cut Out for Customers*

            I was looking for this and surprised I had to scroll so far to find it. I know there are details we aren’t privy to, but whoo boy did “not excited about their jobs and are not invested in ensuring clients receive the best service possible” set off my ick alarms.

            Again, details, but my own perspective based on what OP did describe of the work is that they (might be) excited about the paycheck, but anyone who says they’re excited by a customer facing service job is either lying or a stark raving extrovert.

            “Best service possible” in particular is the kind of corporate double talk that gets to me. I bet your customers would love if they got to walk out with a smile and a pile of free merchandise every day, but maybe that’s not the business model you should be aiming for.

            So yeah. Not saying Tyler and Blake are blameless, but I have questions about the expectations.

            1. Benihana scene stealer*

              I don’t know, it sounds like you’re reading alot into one line. This letter is about a customer who complained about the customer service, not their hidden attitudes.

              The fact that the LW used corporate speak doesn’t really seem relevant – they’re clearly not doing the job well if one is about to be fired and the other’s about. to get a written warning

            2. MigraineMonth*

              It’s a customer service job. To do a good job, you have to at least pretend to care about serving the customer. LW3 doesn’t expect them to do backflips of joy whenever they have a chance to help someone, but they do need to actually help customers.

              You’re right that “best service possible” is corporate puffery, but what it actually means is “do a decent job helping the customer within the confines of the role”, not “promise the customer your firstborn”.

        2. Observer*

          And this is an in-person service desk with shared logins to the software, so there’s no tracking by individuals.

          This situation aside, this is something you should change. Audit trails are hugely useful, even with the best of staff and shared log ins make that impossible. This is especially true if people are touching sensitive data.

        3. Funny you should mention*

          There is no such thing as a “neutral conversation” about a customer interaction with an employee who knows they will be fired if they have another poor customer interaction. It might be worst thinking about it from Taylor’s perspective.

  24. Overnight Oats*

    #1
    A possibility: He sees her working on the computer and thinks, “well, might as well watch this video until she’s done; I will keep the headphones on so I don’t distract her.” She looks over at him and thinks, “well, he’s busy with that video so I will just finish this thing that I am working on.” And both know that both have been on edge and so say nothing to try to avoid irritating the other person. I have been in this situation with my spouse. it has happened in times of stress, such as big events at work or death of a parent. We have slowly learned to make a statement and ask a question! “Sorry to interrupt. I just wanted you to know that I am working on this now because I saw that you were doing something, but I am not working against a deadline on this and I can put it aside if you want to do something together in a few minutes.” You may need to talk about this kind of strategy in advance, when you are not actually in the situation. It may help to do it in the context of counseling. But, I know that in our case, too many times each of us was both trying to give the other space and stewing about being ignored.

    1. Sled dog mama*

      Yes!! This!!
      My husband and I ran into this when I started trying to fit more exercise in. I like to exercise right before bed (yes I know I’m weird) then shower and get in bed. He would encourage me to exercise but complain that we didn’t get enough time together. He would fall asleep every night while I was exercising. I finally had to tell him that if he was going to go to sleep while I was exercising every night that he was making me pick between exercise and spending time with him (and for the love of all that is holy if he knew that I was in the basement exercising he needed to leave lights on). The biggest thing I’ve learned is that my spouse is dense and doesn’t think about how his actions might affect me so I HAVE to tell him probably more than he’d like.
      This also led to the one piece of marriage advice I gave my brothers “it may seem like she can read your mind but she’d appreciate you telling her what you are thinking anyway and you will both be happier if you listen when she tells you what she’s thinking”

      1. mis*

        seems like you could have chosen a slightly less preferred time to exercise instead of expecting your husband to delay sleep (!) if he wants to spend time with you.

    2. I Have RBF*

      This. It happens with my spouse and I, too. What they do is ask me if I am available to talk. I can then answer yes or no. If I have my head stuck in to something I will say no, otherwise I’ll set it aside and spend the time with them. If I see them busy with something, I’ll ask if they are busy or not.

  25. Sled dog mama*

    OP #2 I have recently (2 weeks ago) decided to return to masking indoors and in crowded outdoor spaces.
    In the last 3 months I’ve had a cold/viral illness that caused a massive chronic asthma attack and had pneumonia in July. I didn’t have a formal asthma diagnosis before this, just a strong suspicion based on a strong family history.
    I decided that I can’t risk getting any more respiratory issues for a while (3 solid months of coughing is incredibly demoralizing). I also clearly can’t trust a large portion of my community to help protect me by staying home (large non-vaccinated population and approximately 50% refused to wear masks at the height of the pandemic).
    You do what you need to protect your own health, unfortunately we can’t really count on the community to protect each other.

  26. RubyRooster*

    To letter writer number one:
    First off you sound like a badass and congratulations on this CEO position.
    If he was the ceo, how would it look? Would you be completely supportive and understand that his work has some demands outside of normal business hours?
    I’m focused on the word clingy right now. You say he is proud of you but he doesn’t seem supportive. Your husband sounds insecure and possibly threatened by your success. Does he try to control you in other ways? Does he complain about time you spend with friends and family or has he cut you off from them by complaining you spend too much time with them?
    He is understandably upset about losing his father. However it is too much pressure on you to be his total support system.
    There may be ways that you need to improve your work-life balance, but it may be that no boundary you set in place, no negotiations will be enough.
    I definitely agree with the marriage counseling suggestion. But this is not a you problem. Please don’t come from a place that you are the only one that needs to change. Therapy should help you understand if this is fixable or not.

  27. High Score!*

    OP1 Take the promotion! And get marriage counseling. If your marriage falls apart then you’ll be glad to not have to worry about money. If you stay married then you can give your daughter more opportunities.

    1. Ready for the weekend*

      Part of me feels like that it’s a control issue with him. The job takes her away for longer than he wishes her to be. He would have to step up in taking care of their house and daughter.

  28. ecnaseener*

    LW3, one other thing that strikes me as odd is your framing of the situation as “Taylor and Blake are not excited about their jobs.” Forgive me if I’m reading too much into that word choice, but it’s not really realistic to expect them to be excited. The fact that they “are not invested in ensuring clients receive the best service possible” is a legit issue, but that’s about their actions, not their emotions. They can privately think their job is boring, pointless, etc, you just need them to meet the standards you’ve laid out for the actual work. I only raise this because if you’ve been focusing on convincing them to like the job (and maybe you haven’t!) then I think that’s the wrong approach.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I think this just means they are openly and probably vocally unenthusiastic; i.e. complainers.

      1. OP, LW#3*

        They would do better in behind-the-scenes work. They don’t seem to enjoy working with customers. There’s no vocal complaining, but it shows in small comments and a low level of engagement. We do not have positions to just transfer them to. Taylor has applied for behind-the-scenes work, but was never the best candidate.

        1. mis*

          ecnaseener is right. you don’t need to transfer them to fix it, just stop expecting “excitement” about a shitty job.

  30. Parreb*

    LW1 – unfortunately many men, despite on the surface saying the right words, feel threatened when their female partner enjoys more success than they do. Counseling is the right path, but it sounds like your husband is dealing with other issues as well (family estrangement, grief, etc.) that may require some individual work. Remember that it’s not your job to build his ego. Nobody will be your life advocate except YOU – your job is to be the best you that’s possible. Don’t let his negativity, demands, irrationality and jealousy limit your potential.

  31. desk platypus*

    LW4: I sympathize entirely. I have a coworker who has been abrasive and rude for her entire employment because that’s just who she is, apparently. Even when she finally started to face accountability she’s still incredibly stubborn. Recently a coworker had a very calm talk with her about her dismissive tone and rude coworker was basically like, “Well I don’t know how to fix it.”

    (This being government, however, I’ve long given up the dream of her getting fired.)

    1. pally*

      “Would you care to learn?”
      Being civil to the coworkers is a reasonable expectation of any employee.

  32. TWB*

    Even before Covid, I never understood the “It’s just a summer cold” train of thought. The fact is, you’re still sick, and if you have a cold (whatever the season) someone/something spread it to you, so now you also have the ability to spread it to others! Who wants ANY contagious illness at ANY time of the year???? People baffle me with this type of “logic.”

    1. Orv*

      In some jobs it’s a cultural thing, you’re expected to tough it out instead of inconveniencing everyone by making them pick up your end of things.

  33. Somehow I Manage*

    LW2 – I don’t want to come across harshly, because I also don’t want to be exposed to COVID, or really anything else. I hate feeling sick and have a couple of things medically that are complicated when I get any sort of illness. But I don’t think the exec was reckless or intending to get anyone else sick. You said they tested and the tests were negative. Reckless would be testing positive and coming in anyway. We all have opportunity to protect ourselves, and I think that’s the only real course of action we can take.
    Would it have been best for the exec to stay home feeling like they were feeling, and exhibiting the symptoms they were? Sure. But given the information they had at the time, they made the decision they did.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I’m trying to understand this. Sure, they made the decision they did, but it was an incredibly bad decision. If you are coughing, you know you are spreading germs. You are intentionally risking getting other people sick. You are literally spewing germs into the air.

      If you are coughing and visibly sick, you should stay home and not infect your coworkers, regardless of whether it’s covid or a summer cold. This ridiculous notion that you should just “tough it out” and go to work or school anyway is utterly ridiculous and needs to end. Sick people need to stay home so that their coworkers don’t also get sick.

      1. Wendy*

        What about employees who do not get sick days?

        I do not get sick days.

        If I stay home until I am no longer sick, I do not get paid for that

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          This person being discussed is in the C-Suite. If their company doesn’t have sick days, they’re in a position to do something about that.

          I have a lot of empathy for people who don’t get paid sick days and am continually disappointed we didn’t use COVID as an opportunity to legislate workplaces requiring them, but the person in the letter is unlikely to be someone affected by not having sick days.

          1. Caramel & Cheddar*

            On second read, if you were responding mostly to the second paragraph, my apologies!

        2. Peanut Hamper*

          Yes, my comment was aimed at two groups: people who have sick days, and people in charge of companies that don’t offer sick days to their employees, but could provide them if they wanted to. (Of course, the latter group is too busy bitching that “nobody wants to work any more” instead of figuring out the solution to the problem.)

          I’m sorry that you don’t get sick days, and I hope things improve for you. (Also, you probably need a union.)

      2. Somehow I Manage*

        I’m only saying that I found some of the language in and surrounding the post a little inflammatory. The way it was phrased, it was almost like the exec knew he had COVID and still came in. He had symptoms that I’d have worried about. But we don’t know why he felt compelled to come in. It could be arrogance. It could be that there was an important deadline. It could be somewhere in between.

        The language of the letter rubbed me wrong. That’s really it.

      3. NotVisiblySickJustCoughing*

        How do you define visibly sick? Because there are people who cough and sneeze constantly because of allergies or asthma or other non-contagious things so that’s not automatically a sign of illness for them. In theory, they’d know when they feel sick, but that’s not externally visible.

        So what do you require? Do they test every day? Doctors say no, they shouldn’t do that (and it would be a huge financial burden on them that many couldn’t afford regardless).

    2. Katara's side braids*

      The exec also had the option to wear a mask. I’m lucky enough to work in a medical office, where the norm is to wear a mask if symptomatic even after a negative test. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be upset at the exec for choosing the highest-risk option.

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Even pre-pandemic, someone with the boss’ symptoms should have stayed home. I appreciate that a lot of workplaces did and many still have a bad culture around illness that pressures people to come into the office while sick, but that doesn’t make it okay even if it’s not COVID. Non-COVID illnesses can still cause lots of problems, e.g. there’s an increasing correlation between MS patients and their contracting of viral infections years or even decades earlier, or your own situation where you say that getting sick complicates your existing ailments.

      The boss made a bad choice with the small amount of information she had (that she was “visibly sick and coughing”), even if she didn’t yet have the full picture of the severity.

    4. CommanderBanana*

      I’m not sure how this: I don’t think the exec was reckless or intending to get anyone else sick squares with someone sitting in a meeting hacking in everyone’s face while saying they have a summer cold.

    5. Jiminy Cricket*

      We need to change any culture where it is okay or even expected to come into a group setting while ill and spreading germs. Nobody wants any of your germs, regardless of your Covid tests. And this exec is someone who is in a position to start changing that culture, at least at her company.

  34. LingNerd*

    I don’t understand the people who say “it’s just a cold!” and never did, even before covid. Like, good for you that it’s a mild illness and you’re capable of working, but I don’t want your germs. I’m not at high risk so it would be mild for me too, but I still prefer not to get sick! If you are full of snot, please stay home!

    1. Boof*

      Yea like at this point I don’t really care if it’s covid or any of the other (usually but not always) mild URIs that circulate – RSV was awful when my infant caught it around age 1 (we didn’t end up in the ED, but it was a near thing, and halloween was tanked – which seems like a small thing but when it’s your favorite holiday and you miss it with the older kids because your youngest is really sick it’s just a whole level of insult on top of injury on top of everything else you’re struggling at because babies take up so much time and energy). ANY illness really throws our family schedule off; one kid has to stay home, so an adult has to be with them, so often everyone misses whatever activities were lined up for that day… etc.
      No thank you I don’t want your covid, your just a cold, your flu, any of your contagious diseases thanks please wash hands and wear a mask fastidiously or work from home for a few days.

    2. CommanderBanana*

      Right?? I also don’t want to get your disgusting cold. I’ve had COVID once that I know of, and it was milder and of shorter duration than any cold I’ve had. I don’t want to spend a week or longer snotty, stuffy, headachy, and with a cracked peeling nose because of your “just a cold.”

    3. I Have RBF*

      Seriously.

      When I worked in an office I would get really sick about twice a year with some sort of cold or flu that some “tough it out” parent brought in that they got from their kid having gotten it at school. Even a simple surgical mask would have reduced the spread so damn much, just by containing their coughing, sneezing, etc. Staying home would be even better, because then they could rest.

  35. staceyface*

    #3 have you tried threatening to cut the customer in half to see who would step in to stop you?

  36. Observer*

    #2 – Exposed to covid

    Don’t say “I can’t afford to get covid” but “I can’t afford to get sick”. Because While covid has these specific effects on you, you really don’t want to get *anything* she might be carrying not even “just a summer cold.” And also, it’s less likely to cause a discussion because even if someone *does* say something like “Covid is not a big deal” or “I tested”, you have a perfect way to shut it down without getting into an argument or into how well the tests do or don’t work.

  37. Czech Mate*

    LW 3 – I think you COULD lay out to both Taylor and Blake the fact that they have said the other had the negative customer service interaction and say you want to give them one more chance to explain what happened. You can ask them to explain, “What was going on then? What were you doing? Did you overhear the interaction?”

    If they both dig in, you can let them know that you’re aware one of them is likely being dishonest and there will be increased monitoring of the floor/call center/whatever going forward. That at least will put them on notice, if nothing else.

    1. learnedthehardway*

      I don’t think there is much point in pitting the two employees against each other – that’s likely only going to make things worse. In fact, it is entirely possible that the two employees are well aware that both “win” if neither admits fault. Confronting them and telling them they have one last chance to come clean? What’s the manager going to do when both reiterate that they weren’t dealing with the customer in question – the manager shouldn’t threaten something they can’t deliver upon.

      I’d stick to more oversight / monitoring – just put it in terms that it’s clearly needed to verify customer complaints (because let’s face it, not all customers are reliable narrators) and to provide training opportunities based on real customer interactions.

  38. Fluffy Orange Menace*

    LW1: Your husband doesn’t have a problem with your “dedication to [your] job;” he just flat out doesn’t trust you. Maybe he has a reason, we don’t know. Maybe it’s because he’s projecting his own behavior on you. Or maybe he’s just a jackhole, but I think you need to call it what it is, and call him out, “I’ve never heard of someone kidnapped in Vegas while at a conference. So, clearly your issue is a lack of trust in me. Why is that?” Alternatively, and I don’t particularly love the idea, can you swing the price of bringing him along, even for part of the trip? He’s imagining you living it up at the slots and blackjack tables, throwing back free drinks. Maybe he’ll loosen up once he realizes that you’re actually IN a CONFERENCE and don’t have the time or energy to get up to shenanigans? Just a thought. But, also second Alison’s marital counseling advice.

  39. Observer*

    #3 – Customer service issue.

    If either of them lied, it’s a firing offense. Lying about your work is a problem in any case. But in this context, where this is explicitly throwing someone else under the bus and combined with a serious customer service issue, that’s just too much of a red line. Sure, Blake is not officially on a PIP or anything like that. But this is not a stellar employee who had a blip in performance. Rather, it’s part of a broader pattern of poor performance.

    I hate complaints of this sort. If the service was bad enough that something has to be done, you need the complete information. If the service was not bad enough to warrant “getting someone in trouble”, then don’t stir the pot. Nevertheless, you do have a problem on your hands. This is just my commiseration for being put in a difficult situation.

    Do you have any cameras in this area? We would probably have had a camera in that area – not to monitor staff, but for safety. Nevertheless, the footage could be useful to you.

  40. yikes*

    for csuite covid typhoid mary boss. i had a similar experience a couple of months ago. my boss came in with a “cold” and hacked and coughed all over the place, infecting me with covid, as well as my live in sister. so neither of us were able to provide care for my mother with cancer after surgery, creating a serious problem for my family. this is the same manager that discourages wfh, naturally, because ‘hey i’m old school’

  41. Ms VanSquigglebottoms*

    LW2: I’m sorry you experienced this. The problem with the “every person for themselves” approach to covid is that not all of us are on a level playing field: some people have disabilities that make them more vulnerable, others are on medications that do, and others like you experience covid in ways that conflict with deeply held goals. Putting the onus on the vulnerable person is not fair.

    1. Observer*

      It’s not about putting the onus on people. It’s about the fact that even reasonable people will make mistakes, and even careful people simply don’t always know that they are contagious.

      Of course people should do their best not to make people around them sick and “Only a summer cold” is idiotic, but ultimately you are the only one you can control.

  42. It's Marie - Not Maria*

    LW#4 – I have been told I am an “Alpha Female” by other females. I have had a male manager tell me “You scare me.” Many times, strong females are viewed negatively when they act like, well, strong females. But there is a difference between being a strong female and using it as an excuse to be rude. The crucial part is knowing the difference.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I’ve always thought that there is a scale with “Assertive” on one end and “Rude” on the other end. And you’re right, it’s important to know where you are on that scale.

      The problem is that two different people can exhibit the same behavior and some people will view the male or the white person as being on the “Assertive” end of the scale, while they will view a woman or a POC as being on the “Rude” end of the scale. (Ask me how I know.) I have not figured out how to deal with this yet.

    2. Panda (she/her)*

      One of the big challenges I have had throughout my career is separating the gender-biased feedback from the genuine feedback. I am pretty outspoken and not afraid to stand up for what I believe in, and have been told I need to tone it down and be more agreeable…I have also been told that “men don’t like it when women speak that way”. I don’t want to be someone who dismisses all feedback (because there ARE women who take “strong personality” too far, and I don’t want to be one of them)…but I also know I have been held to a higher standard than men in similar positions before.

      Ugh. One of the OTHER ways sexism is exhausting.

  43. Stuart Foote*

    I am really skeptical that masking is going to do much given that LW is in an enclosed space with someone quite sick from covid. I have known too many people to get covid through a mask to have much confidence in them, especially given that they have to be worn perfectly to even theoretically work. It might reduce the chances slightly, but probably isn’t going to move the needle much.

    I recently recovered from covid (caught it on a plane), and this latest strain is rough. It knocked me and a number of my friends out (all separate cases, not a huge super spreader event)…in some cases, it’s not even clear how they got it. Previous cases weren’t bad but this one was something else.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      The good thing is that masks work whether or not you personally have confidence in them. There are loads and loads of studies that demonstrate this. They’re not perfect, of course! And a lot of that comes down to nothing being perfect, but also their fit, the frequency with which you wear them, the style of the mask (N95 vs KN95 vs surgical), the air circulation in the room, etc.

      I know a lot of people who say they “mask all the time” and then when you press them for details, the reality is much like the letter here: masking in crowded places but not the office, or masking on transit but not at the gym, or any number of scenarios. People are imperfect and will mask imperfectly. That’s just reality. But that has more to do with human behaviour than it does the effectiveness of a mask.

      Maybe LW would have gotten COVID even in a mask. But the chances of doing so is greatly reduced while wearing a mask vs inhaling the boss’ germs directly.

      1. Stuart Foote*

        People just assume that there are “loads and loads of studies” to support beliefs, even when there are not. The NYT article below (written director of the Pandemic Center at Brown University School of Public Health) shows that while observational studies show that wearing masks reduces exposure to the virus, there isn’t much good evidence for population level effectiveness.

        Maybe if the LW had followed Alison’s advice and walked out and got a mask and wore it throughout the hour-long meeting it could have prevented the case, but given the length of exposure and the enclosed space asking a mask to prevent infection is a stretch. People on the right underestimate how much masks work, but people on the left drastically overestimate their effectiveness.

        https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/30/opinion/masks-pandemic.html

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          I mean, the NYT has gone out of its way to minimize the pandemic for the last four years, so I’m not sure that I’d trust any of their reporting on the subject, nor the studies they choose to elevate. I don’t think you and I are really going to find much common ground here, though, so I’ll leave it there.

        3. Katara's side braids*

          I’m paywalled from the article so sorry if this is answered there, but how were these observational studies conducted? I don’t think we ever had a critical mass of people using N95-quality masks consistently, so I don’t understand how they could conclude that “masks” aren’t effective at a population level. I could see them drawing that conclusion for “masking as currently practiced in the US,” which is mostly one way. The sample of people who mask also has a heavy overrepresentation of people with compromised immune systems – the “dose” it takes for them to get sick is likely smaller than it would be for the average person.

          1. Stuart Foote*

            This article summarizes what the author sees as the state of the research, but it really doesn’t link to the specific studies involved. Clearly the population level results aren’t based on people wearing N95 type masks given that a very small percentage of the population ever wore those. Generally the mask guidance from public health authorities has been pretty poor and hasn’t emphasized wearing a mask that actually does something vs a mask that does not.

            I will say that during the pandemic the vast, vast majority of people in the US masked and not all the studies and reviews done were based on the US population.

            1. Katara's side braids*

              Thanks for clarifying! Yes, it’s been frustrating to see so little emphasis on the quality of the masks we use. There was the big push to save N95’s for health care workers at the very beginning, and then the messaging just never got updated in a clear way.

              There was a period where most people were masking, but at least where I am the masks were mostly cloth and surgical. It’s still useful to know how those fared when employed at a population level (not great but better than nothing), but it’s frustrating to see people take away that masks in general must not work because cloth/surgical masks didn’t.

          2. Nancy*

            The NY Times article cites the Cohrane Review “Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses,” which is a meta analysis of available studies at the time. You can find the article online, which lists the studies used and how they were conducted.

        4. I Have RBF*

          I do not consider the NYT a credible source for medical information, at all. They have minimized the pandemic and pandered to the “return to normal” business crowd too much over the last four years to cause me to believe them. If they said a thing was “safe”, I would check with actual medical experts without a political agenda. I apply the same level of scrutiny to the CDC, since they have been minimizing Covid since 2021 as well.

          I read actual studies. Unfortunately, my JSTOR access went away when I got laid off from my university job because of Covid cost cutting.

      2. Lady Danbury*

        This. In addition to the data, my personal experience one way masking supports that it works. The one time I caught covid was on vacation with family members. They assumed that they would catch covid because I had it so they didn’t mask, while I was determined to protect them if possible, so I wore an N-95 when we were in shared spaces (a significant amount of time) and none of them caught it.

        I’ve also traveled extensively since 2021 while wearing an N-95 and have never caught covid from travel, even when it felt like I was the only one still masking. Although I was traveling when I caught covid, as previously mentioned, I was infected while attending a wedding (the entire table ended up getting infected) and not by travel itself. Obvs anecdata isn’t statistical evidence, but in my experience masking definitely moves the needle, whether I’m the person who is infected or I’m trying to prevent infection.

    2. Fluffy Orange Menace*

      Studies have shown that they work most effectively when worn by those infected to keep from spreading it, rather than those hoping not to catch it from the infected.

      1. Sean*

        Thank you for pointing that out – I had not seen the update. I hope those steps bring positive change for them both.

  45. Another Academic Librarian too*

    Letter writer number one.
    Yes, counseling. And Al-anon.
    I was in a similar situation and we did work it out.
    One- I was very engaged in my job AND we did like/need the money. He did feel that I was “working all the time.”
    Two- What you are feeling is real and so, so familiar- he is not engaging with you but resentful when you are not engaging with him.
    Three- there is a communication breakdown- it is good that he has friends, it is not good that you two are not communicating about time to spend together.
    Work travel- Can family vacations be tagged onto the long trip?

  46. Former auditor*

    #5 When I was a union steward, I received invitations to disciplinary or investigation meetings for employees I was helping. One thing that happened all too often was the HR person or supervisor failed to set the meeting as private. While I believed these were unintentional, never once did anyone apologize when I pointed it out and requested the change to private.

  48. CommanderBanana*

    Even if it was “just a summer cold,” why would you be in a small closed-door meeting with anyone if you had a summer cold? Having a cold is miserable too!

    2. dulcinea47*

      Seriously! I don’t want your cold either! People learned nothing from covid in the past 4 years.

  49. Nilsson Schmillson*

    LW1…I WAS married to this guy. He never changed. And neither did I. In the end, he didn’t want to handle the homefront in my absence, and I realized how unhappy I was with the constant struggle. And btw he was, and still is, an infrequently employed dreamer.

  50. Lorax*

    Re: “Strong Personality,” there’s a quote I’ve always liked from Downton Abby’s Dowager Countess Lady Grantham:

    Lady Rosamund Painswick: “You know, mama, that I must always say what I think.”
    Lady Grantham: “Why? No one else does.”

    Having a “strong personality” is 110% not an excuse to behave badly or refuse to change work practices.

  51. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    The weird side effect of Covid is that people seem to think that if it is not Covid it is fine to cough and sneeze all over people. I don’t care if it is “just a cold” I don’t want that either. STAY HOME

  52. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

    OP5 LW5 #5 Some of our company’s executive assistants are like this- writing agendas, briefing the exec on details, and basically functioning as an extension of the executive.
    That being said, why do you ask? Because the EA is expected to be professional and discreet. is it possible you’re really asking, “What can I do now that an EA who knows I got written up is being a jerk about it?”

  53. Helewise*

    LW4, I’d agree that it’s a cheap excuse, although the sweet spot for a woman with a strong personality is really hard to find. I have a strong personality and have learned over time that if I feel like I’m expressing myself at a 4 it may very well be received as an 8. It’s frustrating, but pretending it isn’t an issue is counter-productive – I end up alienating people unnecessarily and lose respect and standing. There are instances in which it can be a super-power, but those moments need to be carefully chosen. I think it’s unwise – and a little lazy – to pretend that we can can’t change.

  54. NotARealManager*

    LW1,

    It’s not that much travel. He’s feeling disconnected and anxious for other reasons and has found this concrete reason to blame it on (whether consciously or not). I agree on the counseling suggestion if for no other reason to talk through the job opportunity with a third party in the room to guide the conversation (and you should still take the job).

  55. RagingADHD*

    #1, grief is a bitch, and supporting someone through grief is that bitch’s sister. Stuff that you ordinarily struggle with (like communicating with a spouse or being emotionally available for your kids) becomes overwhelming or even terrifying.

    He needs a support group or individual counseling in addition to couple’s counselling, because you can’t be his sole emotional outlet. No one person can be that for someone else.

    I know it’s incredibly frustrating, but you know, he isn’t just being clingy. He has legitimate emotional needs, but apparently few options / skills to get them met. Counseling can help him find better ways.

    I hope it works out the best possible way for all of you.

  56. K in Boston*

    The reality is that if not getting Covid (or similar types of diseases) is of particular importance to you, then you probably need to behave as you would if everyone around you is sick and just doesn’t know it. Adjust your risk tolerance from there as far as weighing the importance of things like needing to go into the office, attending family gatherings, having dinner with friends, etc. Hopefully you don’t work somewhere so anti-mask that you’d somehow be penalized for it, even if informally.

    The exec was reckless, but at the same time, the fact that they told you they had symptoms and that they eventually tested positive is a lot more than you can expect from lots of people, and that’s only taking into account people who actually A) have symptoms AND B) test positive.

    2. Long Hauler (Not the Trucker Kind)*

      The exec is 1000% at fault here for coming in sick, not masking, and it seems like their subordinates don’t feel comfortable speaking up or walking out if they need to. Sadly, protecting yourself against COVID has become an individual act instead of something we do collectively as a society, which is why we have so many surges and mutations of COVID.

  57. sacados*

    LW5 – Maybe it’s just me, but I’m feeling really invested in trying to figure out whether this letter is a) from the perspective of an EA who is frustrated at having to set meetings without context because they don’t “need to know”; or b) that of the person called into a disciplinary meeting who’s upset and feels the EA doesn’t “need to know” such private details just to set the meeting.

  58. Long Hauler (Not the Trucker Kind)*

    That was seriously inconsiderate for someone in a position of power to bring their germs around people below them in rank who might not have as much sick leave or as fancy of health insurance.

    There’s definitely social pressure to not mask and to treat COVID like a simple head cold, but as someone who had “mild” COVID twice and has been coping with Long COVID for a few years now, please mask! If workplaces don’t protect their employees, it’s unfortunately on employees to protect themselves. If anyone else is worried about getting sick, band together so you have more power. Ask for the office to stock PPE like KN95s or KF94s or other masks that can help prevent transmission. Ask about moving some meeting back to virtual or offer a hybrid option so people don’t feel the need to come in sick.

    You just don’t know if the next COVID infection you get can lead to Long COVID and it sucks. I am exhausted all the time, have lung issues, brainfog, worsening ADHD, and get sick when it’s hot and humid because of dysautonomia and I don’t have it as bad as some. Please protect yourself and others and encourage folks around you to do the same.

  59. Long Hauler (Not the Trucker Kind)*

    I have to say I’m disappointed at how many people are making excuses for the exec with a cold that turned out to be COVID. Execs don’t need protection from consequences. They get lots of pay and bonuses and benefits. We should be sticking up for the folks who are worried about their health and the unchecked spread of germs from someone in a position of power. Let’s do better and stop making excuses for a boss who made a really bad call.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      +1000% !

      This person is actually in a position of power to make things better. And yet they chose selfishly/poorly. We should do better than this, as individuals, as AAM commenters, and as a species.

  60. PlainJane*

    LW2, I don’t think you really need to specify that it’s Covid you’re worried about, so you don’t need to invoke the whole drama. One thing it taught is is how fast everything spreads. If your boss was visibly ill–whether with Covid, a different coronavirus, the flu, anything–then there’s nothing wrong with just saying, “I don’t want to risk getting sick.”

    Also, whether it’s Covid or not, if you’re sneezing and wheezing, you shouldn’t be at work. If it’s just allergies, then so be it, take it as a regular sick day because you’re not feeling well. But if you’re not sure, then stay home. If there’s a meeting, run it by Zoom. Covid tests test for Covid, unsurprisingly, and there are a lot of contagious illnesses other than that. The flu is not harmless.

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