is chest hair unprofessional, wife doesn’t want me to hire a woman, and more

by Alison Green on August 21, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Is it unprofessional to show chest hair at work?

I’m an admin at a large university in the midwest. I wear collared shirts every day, and given the recent heatwave, I unbuttoned an extra button to try to be a bit more comfortable in our stuffy office.

My boss (who is an oddball on several fronts) told me that it was inappropriate for me to do so because it exposed a little bit of chest hair. She said it would be fine if I shaved my chest or wore an undershirt, but “body hair should never be visible in the workplace.” There’s nothing about body hair or chest hair in our dress code, just a note that people’s appearances should be “neat and well-kempt.”

So far, I’ve just sucked it up and kept my shirts buttoned all the way, but is the “no chest hair” rule a norm?

I should note that my dress shirts are not see-through at all and that I dress on the more formal side of business casual while most of my coworkers are in jeans.

“Body hair should never be visible in the workplace” is not a rule. Your boss made that up. If that were true, men with hairy arms could never roll up their sleeves. (Or for that matter, anyone with an average amount of arm hair.) I suspect what your boss means is “chest hair feels out of place at work in a way that arm hair doesn’t” which … okay, I can see that. It’s one reason a lot of men wear undershirts. But it’s not a rule and she’s being overly rigid.

That said, when you say you unbuttoned an extra button, how many unbuttoned buttons is that? (Try to say that out loud five times fast; you cannot!) One unbuttoned button should be fine. Two without an undershirt might be pushing it for your particular office and your particular chest.

(For the record, all these conventions are BS! But they exist nonetheless.)

Related:
Hairy legs at work

2. My struggling new hire takes long lunches and leaves early

I am a first time manager with one direct report, Jared. Jared has been with the company for two months but I’m noticing that he will often take a really long lunch and leave early. I feel I should say something to him but I’m not sure if this will seem a bit rigid.

The problem is that, as a junior, he is still very much in training and I feel it’s better that we have as much face-to-face contact as possible. He is (self-admittedly) a visual learner.

In addition, he typically starts earlier than I do (7am) and I don’t arrive until 8am. But the last two weeks, I’ve noticed that he is never online at 7am and seems to only log on closer to 8am. But he still leaves early like he would if he had arrived on time. I suspect he thinks I don’t notice because I arrive after he does. How can I address these issues?

For context, his performance is not good and I have already discussed this with him. My boss has been kept in the loop but he is not a very active manager and isn’t really interested in resolving anything. Unfortunately I don’t have the power to fire him.

Just name what you want him to do differently and be direct and matter-of-fact about it: “Our expectation is that you’ll work a full eight-hour day, so if you’re arriving at 7, that means you’d stay until 4 if you’re taking an hour lunch. Lunch is a maximum of an hour unless you make special arrangements. It’s fine to start at 7 if you’d like to, but I do need to see you logged in then.” Also, given that he’s struggling and may need more time with you to learn (or just need more supervision, frankly), would you rather he start at 8? If so, it’s fine to tell him you want that (or at least to ask if it’s possible), or even to say, “I noticed you’ve been logging in closer to 8 and while we’re working to get your performance up to speed, let’s formalize your schedule as 8-5 so you and I overlap more.”

This isn’t excessively rigid; it’s a normal expectation that people will work a full work day — in any situation, but especially when they’re new and struggling. Address it now, because the longer you let it go on, the more he’ll think it’s okay.

3. My wife doesn’t want me to hire a woman

I run a small business and am about to make a significant hire. This new employee will work very closely with me, although will be located in another state. My wife is adamantly against this being a woman. I have three applicants left, and the two who are most qualified are female. What should I do?

Hire the most qualified applicant and seek marriage counseling with your wife because there’s a lack of trust in your relationship that’s going to cause problems in other ways too (and likely already has).

You can also point out to your wife that it’s illegal to make hiring decisions based on gender.

4. Facebook comments from job-seekers

We recently posted a job ad on our Facebook for a part-time position. We got one comment that was a plain and simple, “What are the hours?” A message asked the same question so that they know before they “bother” applying.

This is a desk shift with a rotating schedule, based on the weekend rotation and others’ availability, so we don’t have set hours for it right now. The job posting itself says that it includes day, evening, and the occasional Saturday.

My coworkers and I have been discussing both the wording of these questions and the fact that they’re on our Facebook page. It feels a bit like they’re forgetting that Facebook questions are still reviewed and answered by an actual person who might have hiring power over this position.

Personally, I feel that even if they are asking over Facebook, they should ask the question with a similar level of courtesy as they would if they emailed the hiring manager directly. Some people feel that they shouldn’t ask the question at all, and should save it for the interview, since many of these types of part-time jobs operate in the same way. Others don’t feel there’s any harm in asking at all, even over Facebook. Most agree that a message is more appropriate than a comment, though. What’s your take?

I suppose you could argue that a message is more appropriate than a Facebook comment — but if you’re posting the job on Facebook, it’s not inappropriate for people to respond there. It might be ineffective (a lot of companies aren’t that active in their comments) but it’s not inherently inappropriate. Either way, though, Facebook is an inherently casual medium, so it’s not surprising that the interactions have a more casual feel to them.

But I don’t agree with your coworkers who think candidates should save the question about hours for the interview. They may end up needing to save it for the interview because a lot of employers don’t answer that kind of query beforehand, but it’s reasonable for people to want to know about the hours before investing time in applying. The fact that they’re asking is a sign that your company should be including that info in the ad up-front so that people who aren’t interested in that type of scheduling can opt out. (Why waste your time or theirs in an interview if that’s going to be a deal-breaker?)

5. Should I tell an old boss why I was falling asleep at work?

In my first job out of grad school, I fell asleep at my desk twice. Both times were accidental. Once a coworker saw me, and the other time a client noticed and reported it to my supervisor. My supervisor handled it really well. He called me into his office and said what amounted to, “You are an adult, falling asleep at work is not acceptable, figure out how to get enough rest so you are awake during work hours.” His boss, however, sought me out to give me a real dressing-down, telling me that what I did was “inexcusable” and I was a disgrace to the company. This was humiliating, as you can imagine, and left me with a strong dislike for this manager.

A few months later, I transferred to a different division. I was still struggling with staying awake but did manage to stay awake most of the time. It was so bad that I built extra time into my daily commute to get to work safely, just in case I needed to stop and stretch to stay awake or stop for a 20-minute nap. I was legitimately trying to stay awake and just couldn’t. I finally spoke to my doctor about this and received a diagnosis and treatment (more than a year after my supervisor had spoken to me).

I’ve always wondered if I should have gone back to my supervisor (we stayed on friendly terms when I transferred) and explained that I had received a medical diagnosis and the excessive tiredness had been a symptom. I really had been trying to stay awake but it really was something I couldn’t have helped at the time.

You didn’t need to, but there could be benefit to it. Something like “I wanted to let you know that I figured out the cause of the sleep issues I struggled with while we worked together; turns out it was a medical issue that I’ve treated and it’s now fully under control” might put it in context for your old boss and made it a non-issue in his head. Knowing it was a medical issue that’s been resolved could make him much less likely to include it his thinking if he’s ever asked to comment on your work for him. That said, if he was only aware of it happening once, it might be a non-issue anyway — although I wonder whether he might have noticed you struggling to stay engaged other times too.

Again, there’s no need to say anything, but in your shoes I’d probably like the peace of mind of closing the loop on what had been happening.

Relatedly, there’s a longer discussion coming later today on the benefits of just saying a thing that will give you peace of mind!

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{ 394 comments }

{ 394 comments… read them below }

  1. Merus*

    ten bucks says that Jared is “starting work” at 7am specifically because no-one’s around to make him do real work, and then he gets to leave at 4pm. I am very familiar with the mindset of trying to optimise doing as little work as possible (instead of optimising your work, so you can demonstrate your fitness to do more interesting work).

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Yeah I’d bet a lot more than $10 on that. It always seems to be the people struggling, or those who hate the job for whatever reason, who are doing stuff like this and taking long lunches etc. I suppose it tracks since people who are more motivated will find it easier to just do the job than mess about with this sort of stuff.

      OP is in a difficult spot here. If they don’t have the power to fire him, maybe that means they didn’t hire him either (someone else did) and he’s been foisted on OP. I would go back to the person who does have firing authority and escalate it.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Yes, I once had a desperately needed new junior employee who I needed to train, but after a couple of weeks, asked if it would be alright to start work at 7.30 so she could leave earlier. My boss said no.

        Her work wasn’t great and so there was a lot of supervising and checking to begin with. Fair enough I thought, but then I don’t think she ever managed to work a full week in the time she was with the company, either due to pre-booked holidays or sickness.

      2. HonorBox*

        Your first paragraph is spot on. I worked with someone who regularly was gone “at lunch” for more than our allotted time, had “meetings” and “appointments” at weird times and at least once a week had to leave early for one of those and never came back to the office. I use the quotation marks because some of them were seemingly real but unnecessary and others were things that weren’t particularly necessary, by the way.

        When I was talking about it at home, my wife pointed to the fact that the former coworker likely had no idea how to do their job effectively, so they were just trying to look busy to obscure the fact that they weren’t able to do their job.

        I’d bet that $10 and more that Jared doesn’t particularly like his job, doesn’t understand it, and is finding ways to appear busy without actually doing what he needs to do.

      3. MassMatt*

        I was saying to myself “just fire them already!” until I got to the part where OP says they couldn’t. Huge side-eye to the dysfunctional dynamic of the OP being the supervisor/manager and yet having no power to fire. They are being set up for failure. And THEIR boss is disinterested? Ugh.

      4. Deborah Vance, Vance Refrigeration*

        I only had two jobs that I actually hated, but at one of them I did exactly that: while trying to find a new job, I took long lunches, unnecessary meetings, and everything else I could think about to escape that environment. Not saying this is the case with Jared, of course, but for me, it was a very deliberate choice.

    2. Also-ADHD*

      One thing that confused me in that letter was the “logged in” vs “face time”, so I’m not sure if it’s a physical office? It could be Jared is in a different time zone than LW too, and the boss is relaying their 7am (Jared’s 8am). They didn’t say so, the logged in just made me wonder. I am curious if Jared is coming in early, and if so, if the goal is for him to (like is there any benefit to having him there at 7) or if time zones are just shifting his hours from the boss. Either way, I don’t think that changes the direct approach Alison recommended and I agree with just being very clear on the issues.

      1. Emmy Noether*

        I interpreted it as being in office, but LW checking from home on Teams (or whatever equivalent) if employee is online before going to work themself.

        1. Also-ADHD*

          I wasn’t implying LW didn’t know, but that we don’t know (the letters are only so long) and the advice changes based on the situation. I was giving a possibility for why LW hasn’t asked Jared to work the same hours as them possibly, that’s all, in response to comments. Obviously LW knows either way.

      1. Michigander*

        Sure, some people do. But if he also appears to only be logging on right before the LW, takes extra long lunches, and isn’t that good at his job, it’s pretty likely that he doesn’t just want to start at 7 am because he’s an early bird.

        1. MassMatt*

          Maybe, though LW says they “arrive” at 8am, and also mentions that the problem employee learns best visually, maybe that means via screen share etc but I was assuming this was an in-person office job.

      3. Bast*

        I am one of those people who is an early bird, and I do my best work early in the day. I’d rather log in early and leave earlier than work a typical 9 to 5 or 9 to 6, however, if you were to look at my screen during my start time, I’d be logged in and doing SOMETHING, not waiting until almost an hour after my start time to log in.

        1. Peanut Hamper*

          Yes, this. I am in the same boat, and you can see from the timestamps on my Teams messages and emails I send that I am not just logged in, I’m actually working.

          I suspect Jared is gaming the system.

        2. WeirdChemist*

          Yep, I’m the same. I am both just generally more productive in the mornings, but especially when I don’t have to be distracted by Man With the Gnarliest Coughs and Woman Who Won’t Stop Talking About Her Last Cruise and of course being pulled out of work by 10000 meetings in the middle of the day.

          Honestly in my office we have the inverse problem, where there’s people who shift their schedules to be later than their manager so that they can goof off after the managers leave for the day

          1. Bast*

            Old Job was an open office, and just about everyone there was a later riser. It was rare to see anyone else come in before 8:30. I’d use the hour and a half by myself to focus on projects that were impossible with the constant noise.

            1. bamcheeks*

              Crikey, I would never consider arriving at work at 8.30 to be a later riser. I still resent getting up before 8.30, never mind getting to work by then.

              1. londonedit*

                Same! When I go to the office I do 8:30-4:30, because it makes the commute easier and I like feeling like I still have a full evening to myself when I get home. But I’m always one of the first in and the vast majority of people do 9-5. Anything before 8:30 would be seen as a very early start!

                I’ve definitely worked with people who took the mickey with regard to working hours etc – and claiming an earlier start time but actually coming in/not starting until later is a classic way of doing it. They figure that if the boss isn’t around to see them doing it, they can get away with it.

              2. I Have RBF*

                Seriously. When I had to be in an open office, in an area with bad traffic, I would regularly work 10 am to 7 pm. Those last two hours were heavenly quiet.

                Now I’m remote, my hours are 9 am to 6 pm, and I don’t have to get up until 8:30. I wasted so much of my life on commuting just to sit and work on a computer that I could do at home.

              3. MyToastLeftMe*

                I agree! However, I’m one of the last people in at my current office at 8:30, and many people arrive at 6:30. I used to supervise one of those early risers, and suspected he was not actually working.

      4. HonorBox*

        If Jared liked being early, there would be evidence that he’s actually working early. Also, that he’s not great at his job and takes long lunches makes it seem like there is something more going on than he just likes to start at 7 versus 8.

        1. MassMatt*

          Yeah since OP has no power here they need to get their disinterested manager to get interested and take some responsibility.

      5. kiki*

        For sure and I’ve become an early bird worker as I’ve moved forward in my career. There are tons of great reasons to want an earlier schedule.

        But I also know (and honestly have been!) the type of employee who makes requests to work different hours under the guise of improved productivity, but actually wants an hour each day where I’m paid to faff about without anyone watching. This employee is so new and not doing well— I think it’s fair to say that the accommodation should no longer be accommodated because it isn’t working well.

      6. Dust Bunny*

        My hours are shifted early to allow me an easier commute, but when I “start work” at 7:15 I am actually logged in and doing things.

    4. Alicent*

      I agree. At one previous, mind-numbing job with terrible management some employees were clocking in really early and then having breakfast together for an hour. Management eventually caught on and NONE of us were allowed to start before a manager was there in the morning despite horrible Boston traffic. I got there as early as possible because the bus schedule was just a suggestion during rush hour and it could save me 45 minutes on my commute. But I actually got to work.

    5. Artemesia*

      Flexible schedules are for people who have proved their competence; Jared needs to be in when you can observe his work. Who is managing this guy if he is taking long lunches and is not signed on for the first hour he is ‘at work.’? It is usually easier to get rid of someone early in their tenure than after they have been there for months or years. I’d be escalating this to my boss as a problem and have this guy on a PIP or at least very closely supervised on hour and more importantly on productivity and quality.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Flexible schedules are for people who have proved their competence

        Very much this. Jared has not earned this yet.

      2. Lily Rowan*

        But you’ve got to start with a clear conversation with him first! I’ve had new young employees doing things that I thought were obviously unprofessional or showed bad judgement or whatever, when in fact they just showed lack of experience, and when I clearly and explicitly said, “Don’t do that thing, and here’s why I’m concerned about it” they totally turned it around.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Especially if it’s possible they’re working at their computer, just not logged into Teams/Slack/etc until 8am when others start. It sounds unlikely that he’s using that hour for focused work given his other behaviors, but it’s best to make your expectations explicit so there’s no room for excuses.

    6. Ialwaysforgetmyname*

      Sadly, yes. I’d put money on that also because unfortunately that’s been my experience over the years. In one job when I occasionally showed up much earlier than usual the person who claimed to start one hour before everyone else wasn’t even there (but of course that was always the “exception” according to her).

    7. My Useless Two Cents*

      While I think it is the more likely scenario, if he knows he’s struggling, he could also be going over notes or organizing things in an effort to learn better. Just because you are not “logged in” doesn’t always mean you aren’t “working”, it depends on a lot of factors.

      I would rather OP observe and see if A) worker is actually making an effort and trying, B) worker is struggling and seems to be giving up out of frustration, or C) worker is just slacking off because they think they can get away with it. If A or B, try to beef up training. If C, talk to manager sooner rather than later to let him go as he isn’t working out.

    8. CubeFarmer*

      This is 100 percent what is happening.

      We had a colleague who always claimed that she needed to “deposit checks” at the bank, would leave to do that at 3:30 or 4pm, and never return. We figured that she was depositing the checks (which was unnecessary because we could do that remotely,) and then immediately going to the station so that she could get the last off-peak train for her long, and admittedly expensive, commute home. She never got called out on this (she was not in my program,) and eventually left on good terms. This was HORRIBLE for that program’s morale.

    9. umami*

      Yes, and regardless, this is a strange setup. I would not have a junior, new employee coming in during hours where their supervisor is not there until they are fully trained on the job and on the workplace norms. It’s not clear why Jared is working different hours, but that is the first thing I would fix.

  2. AcademiaNut*

    For the LW4 –

    “includes day, evening, and the occasional Saturday” can mean anything from a fixed schedule of Monday, Wednesday, Thursday evening and the first Saturday of the month, to a schedule based on the employee’s availability, to the expectation that they will be available for shifts any time between 7am and 9pm, six days a week.

    If it’s closer to the latter, spell it out in the job ad. People may have child care responsibilities, a second part time job, or other schedule constraints that determine whether the job is possible for them to do or not. If it’s not, being able to know and not apply is more efficient for everyone.

    1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Me thinks the job posting is the latter where they basically want someone available whenever at any time without even paying for FT employment for someone to make a living… like you should be at the beck and call of your part time job for free.

      1. OP4*

        No, it’s almost the opposite. They’re being vague about the hours because they want people to tell them what they have available and then they want to see if it can fit with the other people who do this job. Most of the other people in the job have a little flexibility, so fitting everyone into firm, rigid hours is not ideal

        1. Mutually supportive*

          Could it also give an indication of number of hours per week, on average? That would help to get a feeling for requirements.

          Something like “Working patterns to be agreed to suit committemenrs of the candidate and existing team members, anticipated to be approx 40 hours per week which could include xxxxx times / days”

          If it’s the case then start with “this role requires 24/7 coverage. Working patterns…. etc…”

          1. Learn ALL the things*

            I’d get as specific as it is possible to get. I know OP doesn’t know for certain yet, but if they could say something like “we anticipate that this position will work one evening a week and one Saturday a month, which will be scheduled well in advance,” that might go a long way toward putting candidates’ minds at ease.

            I’ve worked at places that were open evenings and weekends, and there are degrees of evening and weekend schedules. I’d be willing to apply for something with a schedule like I’ve described above where I know in advance that I close every Tuesday and work the 3rd Saturday of the month, or something like that. But the other kind of evening and weekend schedule, the kind that changes every week and makes it so you can’t plan anything in your personal life until the next schedule is posted, I’ll never do that again.

            At minimum, OP’s job posting should probably spell out which end of the spectrum they’re closest to so people can decide whether or not it makes sense to take time out of their day to apply.

          2. Green great dragon*

            I like this wording in para 2, except I’d be explicit what the company’s hours are. If evening/weekend work is expected, say that, and if it’s available but not required, say that.

          3. Festively Dressed Earl*

            +1 to this. For example, “Shifts may begin as early as 7 AM or end as late as 7 PM. 3-4 5 hour shifts per week, plus 2 weekend shifts per month.”

        2. HonorBox*

          I think this poses a significant challenge then. It is likely that it’ll end up in a very circular conversation. You want someone to spell out when they’re available, but they have no idea what that means. Also, while people can plan the rest of their lives around work, even when the schedule is not set in stone, it is hard to know how to do that without getting some information about what the expectations of the workplace are.

          I think you’re better off telling people when you set schedules, what you anticipate needing, and can be flexible with everyone on the team in setting schedules. But you need to give someone a reasonable expectation of what that looks like before you ask what their hours are.

        3. Trout 'Waver*

          You do realize these are all red flags, right?

          Vague about hours
          Expect candidates to read the manager’s mind
          No set hours
          Negotiate with coworkers to get hours
          Argumentative over facebook posts

        4. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That’s… not great. Either asked before or during the interview. People with flexibility still need to know how many hours and what types of shifts are available. A college student who can plan her schedule around classes? Amazing. A mom of young kids who can do morning shifts? Fantastic. Someone who just works when other people aren’t working? No.

          I realize you may not have control over this, but that is a very silly way to schedule and also a very silly way to explain hours to people. So… I can only work when it’s convenient for other people? That’s not helpful.

          If the job is inherently flexible, then say that: “10-20 hours/week expected, schedule flexible.” But this doesn’t sound like that.

          1. sparkle emoji*

            Yeah, this sounds like something where you should find people who would have consistent PT availability(like the college student or the mom from AvonLady’s example) and patch their availabilities together. It’s extremely unlikely they could just work random, constantly changing times. Find your mornings person, your evenings person, so on, and once you find the morning person, leave them on just mornings.

          2. Pair of Does*

            Yeah I think they’re hesitant to spell it out in the ad/FB post because it sounds bad to say it in so many words… because it is a bad way to do it! The FB commenters are quite rightly trying to suss out whether it’s a reasonable scheduling expectation before they know whether they’re interested.

        5. mlem*

          If you’re trying to be flexible for applicants, you need to be very clear about that in the ad, because otherwise people will expect fast-food-style chaos scheduling, and many will opt out based on that expectation. At a minimum, adding something like “regular schedule to be negotiated” would be better than nothing.

          1. ferrina*

            Agree. If I saw an ad that didn’t give clear hours, I would assume that the company expected me to always be available for them and I wouldn’t even bother to apply. These candidates are actually doing you a favor by asking- you need to be clear what you are looking for (“20hrs/wk during company business hours; exact schedule can be negotiated based on candidate’s availability”)

        6. Space Needlepoint*

          I find that a bit strange. As the employer, you are the ones who have a need to fill, you should be specific as to what you need and when you need it. It’s not reasonable to put the burden on the candidate to guess when you might want them to work.

          By not providing necessary information, I can guarantee you a lot of good people are skipping your ad and your company because they wonder what else you’re hiding.

          1. Turquoisecow*

            I agree. At least give me a vague idea – do you need 40 hours a week? 20? Something in between? Are you likely to want nights, mornings, weekends? Would I work 12 hour shifts or 4 hour shifts? If I tell you I want mornings on weekdays will that be enough or do you occasionally want an afternoon or a Saturday? I’m not going to apply if I don’t have at least something of an answer to those questions because if I can only work mornings or four hour shifts and you want longer shifts and afternoons, I’ve just wasted my time filling out an application and potentially clearing my schedule for an interview.

        7. biobotb*

          But if you already have people doing the job, whose hours would dictate the new hire’s hours, how can you not have an idea of what the new hire’s hours should be?

        8. iglwif*

          I feel like the existing language is probably not conveying that very well? I would definitely not understand “this job can have pretty flexible hours, we’re looking to cover about X hours per week, please tell us your availability in your application” from “includes day, evening, and the occasional Saturday.”

          (I think I would also ask the question about hours differently — more like “how many hours per week are expected”. But it seems very reasonable to want to know more before applying.)

        9. OlympiasEpiriot*

          You still have to make it as specific as possible. Most aren’t going to apply with that level of vagueness.

        10. Moira's Rose's Garden*

          Then how about something like
          “Full time position (XX hrs), flexible scheduling and weekend shifts are available.”?
          If you are open to part-time or split shifts, you can tack that in too.

      2. samwise*

        No need to rev up to 100 mph on this…plenty of places include this kind of statement when they know they will need some work outside of regular hours, but they don’t have exact days or number of hours.

        In my office, for instance, certain work-time events can run over and people need to be ready to stay late on those days. But we don’t know when they will run over, so we can’t possibly say. We usually have a single Saturday event, date changes every year, everyone has to do a two-hour shift–again, no point in putting all of that into a job ad, “occasional Saturday” covers it well.

      3. et cetera*

        i have applied to a job like this before and they said when i went in for an interview that they could not promise a set amount of hours but that they really needed someone who could go to sales/wedding shows, fill balloons, run the shop if someone had an appointment, come in at the drop of a hat, and so forth. what that shop really needed was a family member who wanted to inherit the business. it was a stationery store and they did a lot of wedding invitations, and shortly after i declined that offer covid hit, so i don’t even know if they’re still around! but i would personally be wary of an ad that could not promise set hours or a schedule and that’s probably why people want clarification.

    2. Hroethvitnir*

      Yes! It’s so frustrating that the norm is not to be clear in job ads. It’s a waste of my time and yours, employer.

      So many with two paragraphs of effectively empty advertising, one with job requirements, zero mention of pay band or accurate description of hours anywhere. *shakes head*

      I do think asking on Facebook is bizarre, to address the actual question though.

      1. Dahlia*

        Depends on culture, tbh.

        Where I live a lot of businesses are only really contactable by Facebook or by phoning them, and no one likes to phone people. A lot of them don’t have actual websites and the odds of them answering an email is slim to none.

        1. Hroethvitnir*

          Wow, that’s wild. Tbf probably pretty true here too of at least tiny businesses, but I’d never ask a job related question in a comment and am dubious about Messenger.

          Our electricity provider did use Facebook for customer service for a while, which was an odd choice and presumably dropped due to lack of privacy? Was one of the fastest, most helpful responses I’ve got online though, haha. I was entertained when they heart-reacted to my message thanking them – possibly a bit too chill even for them, but I’ll take it.

          1. Emily*

            I wonder how people got help from customer service if they didn’t have Facebook?
            But I digress…
            I do think if you are going to post a job opening on Facebook, you should expect to get comments/messages about said job posting. It also sounds like the hours are vague enough that I can understand why clarification would be needed. As other commenters have pointed out, especially because this is a part time job, and so applicants may already have another part time job, or may look for a second part time job in addition to this one.

            1. Worldwalker*

              How do people get help without Facebook? They don’t. I’m not a Facebook product (if you’re not paying for a product, you ARE the product, or at least your eyeballs and personal data are) and I occasionally find a business that can only be contacted through Facebook, which generally loses them my business. They don’t care, of course. But if there’s ever anything (a major security incident, for instance) that makes people abandon Facebook in droves, they’re going to be up the creek.

              2. Leaver*

                I think people are widely abandoning Facebook already. Or in the case of younger adults in their teens and early 20s, not getting on Facebook in the first place. I still technically have an account but haven’t logged on in over a year and haven’t significantly used it in 2-3 years.

                1. MassMatt*

                  I abandoned FB years ago, the signal to noise ratio was terrible. I would really reconsider doing business with anyone whose sole contact option was FB or another such social media site.

                  My only social media presence is LinkedIn, which is pretty big in my field, though it too is becoming more FB like to its detriment.

                  IMO if the LW wants more professionalism they have a better chance of getting it on LinkedIn than FB, but mileage will vary based on location and type of business.

                2. TK*

                  There are a lot of people who still use Messenger even if they don’t do anything else on Facebook though. It’s almost its own thing at this point.

                3. Hroethvitnir*

                  As its functionality for actual socialising has gone to hell most people have certainly left, some time ago, but I don’t think that’s reflected in business use. I feel like its *main* use these days are community pages and small businesses, and while I don’t love the latter, it is great for organising groups of people.

              3. Pair of Does*

                People under (I want to say) 45 have already abandoned facebook in droves, for all intents and purposes. They may just have a stagnant account they don’t check because lots of their pictures are there. But it’s entirely the purview of older people and AI slop now.

            2. Nephron*

              I live in the United States. My medical device had customer service requests for replacements go through Facebook messenger for awhile.

            3. TK*

              In most of the world outside of the US & Canada, people use third-party messenging apps almost exclusively rather than regular SMS texting. Which one varies by country/region. In much of Europe, this is WhatsApp (which is owned by Facebook), but it some places it’s Facebook Messenger. It’s just expected that everyone has it.

            4. Hroethvitnir*

              A bit belated but yes, I keep forgetting the listing is on Facebook and generalising. That really does change things, and given I saw below OP is mostly bothered there were no niceties, ehh on the applicant end yeah I lean extra polite, but I don’t think you can really make a judgement on the person based on a straight forward question about missing information on the ad itself.

              And yeah, presumably the other reason they left Facebook was lack of accessibility! No idea how long that was a thing for.

        2. OP4*

          None of this is the case for us. We have well-staffed phone lines, a website, and the Facebook post links to an ad with a little more info.

          1. MsM*

            Okay, but if you’re posting on Facebook, I think that still communicates to people that’s an acceptable channel through which to reach you. Unless you have some kind of big disclaimer in your profile or the postings that you aren’t monitoring comments or messages, but people are still probably going to ignore/overlook that.

          2. Learn ALL the things*

            Did your Facebook post about the job include the email address and phone number where potential applicant can reach out with their questions? If so, just reply to their comment or message directing them to that information. If not, make sure to include it next time.

            However. Facebook is a medium that is based on two way communication. For the most part, people will assume that if you post something on Facebook, it’s okay for them to talk to you about it there. That’s simply how posting on Facebook works. Don’t judge someone’s level of professionalism because they’re engaging in the established norms for the website where you’ve posted your job ad.

            1. sparkle emoji*

              Yep. OP, by posting the job add on Facebook, you’ve indicated that Facebook interaction norms apply. These will be less formal than typical job seeking norms on dedicated job seeking sites. If you don’t like these types of responses, part of what that indicates to me is that posting jobs on Facebook isn’t the right choice for what you want.

      2. nnn*

        I agree that asking on Facebook seems odd when taken in a vacuum, but also they posted the job posting on Facebook and there’s a reply button right there. I feel like if you’re going to post something somewhere where there’s a reply button, a natural consequence is that people will click on the reply button.

        1. Cinn*

          Also I feel like the comment of “what are the hours” might have been done so that everyone else looking at the ad could see both question and reply and save everyone else having to ask as well.

          1. Bilateralrope*

            Especially if the comment came from someone who knows that this business doesn’t reply to private communications asking about the hours.

            1. Arrietty*

              Similarly, I will ask details like “what’s the pay rate?” or “what are the hours?”, not because I want to know (I hope never to apply for another job) but because other people will (and also sometimes because I suspect the listing is a scam).

          3. ThatOtherClare*

            That was my thinking as well. I can definitely see ‘information sharing’ being a motivation for someone to make their enquiry a public comment.

            I might personally have phrased the query a little differently, but we’re all individuals and variety is the spice of life!

          4. Pokemon Go To The Polls*

            I do this sometime when jobs with incomplete info (usually missing pay) are posted on my local FB pages. People need to know, so why not ask?

          6. Zeus*

            My thought exactly, I’ve done something similar on vague audition notices on FB before, and would probably do the same for a job advert if I came across one.

      3. Ana Gram*

        I was in local government hiring for a decade and it was very normal for us to get multiple questions on Facebook job announcements. Usually, just factual, easy to answer questions that would clearly make a difference in the asker’s decision to apply. What are the shifts? What retirement system do you use? Does my out of state certification work in your state? I didn’t mind at all.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Yeah, it seems like if you decide that Facebook is a reasonable/professional place to post a job announcement, you should expect communication about that job to also come through Facebook.

          “What are the hours?” seems like a reasonable job-related communication about a job posted on Facebook, either through commenting or messaging.

          “What are the hours so I know if I should bother to apply” is pretty unprofessional, but I think it would still be unprofessional if it were mailed to the hiring manager on wedding-invite cardstock in an embossed envelope.

      4. amoeba*

        Eh, I mean, in my field, *posting* a job on FB would be the bizarre thing to do. As this doesn’t seem to be the case for LW, I’d say engaging via the same medium is a reasonable thing to do. (And also, I’d probably do comment rather than private message because, as mentioned above, I’d think it might be helpful for others as well!)

        I do feel the wording of the message (“bother applying”) is pretty unprofessional though, not because it’s not formal enough, but because it seems… quite hostile?

        1. Observer*

          I do feel the wording of the message (“bother applying”) is pretty unprofessional though, not because it’s not formal enough, but because it seems… quite hostile?

          That one was in a DM, at least. And depending on the type of job, I can understand it. From what the LW says, this is not a job that people are likely to find highly desirable, and the listing is intentionally vague about an extremely important piece of information.

          If someone has already spent tons of hours applying to jobs that they would have avoided if they had the relevant information, I can see them pushing back and making it clear that they don’t want to make that kind of time investment without this key piece of information.

        2. BikeWalkBarb*

          Or it’s the deep fatigue and frustration we’ve read expressed here many times from someone who’s submitted a lot of applications, didn’t get contacts or second interviews, and only got all the way to the offer stage on jobs that didn’t have hours they could actually work because of other things and because the schedule was vague and to be negotiated with others not in the hiring process.

          1. amoeba*

            Well, sure. But then I’d probably just not bother with the job at all – not go to the effort of writing a message phrased in a way that would probably rule me out as a candidate, anyway. But yeah, people aren’t always thinking logically, sure.

      5. I strive to Excel*

        A few years ago there was a forest fire maybe 45 minutes away from my house, near a small town and with the potential to possibly travel down the highway corridor to my much larger nearby town. Naturally all of us in both towns were desperate for any official updates. The fire department decided to make all communications through their official Facebook page, which were then only added to the “county fire” website 1-2 days later. This was somehow an improvement on the neighboring county whose border the fire crossed, who as far as I can tell made no public communications anywhere.

        People are weird about professional communications.

        1. BikeWalkBarb*

          I’d guess updates to FB were faster and easier for real-time communications than a webpage, depending on the process of submitting page changes. (I’d hope it would be fast/easy for emergency services but the web is the web and many small agencies have pretty dated legacy systems.)

          I’m in a public agency that wins awards for their outstanding use of Twitter (it is always and only Twitter to me) for real-time posts about things people need to know, including whether a fire has closed a road. We have geographically oriented accounts so people can follow what’s useful for them. This would never work as direct webpage updates in our system. The destruction of Twitter has dealt a real blow to the value of that channel, though we keep using it because the primary account has over 380K followers. The FB page isn’t for that kind of real-time announcement because that would be a flood, although they might do one for a major-major event and point people to where they’ll find more info or tell them how often to expect an update on that platform.

          Jobs are posted at governmentjobs.com, not on social unless an individual shares the link. This includes LinkedIn, where those of us who are hiring tag the agency page so the opening shows up there. The social team isn’t responsible for knowing when there’s an opening across thousands of positions.

          It’s a big agency and we have a clear social media policy. Even small organizations should have one so you know why you’re on a specific platform, who’s handling replies, what you do/don’t post there, role of social in an emergency situation. “We don’t do social” is also a perfectly acceptable policy depending on industry and what this means for your bottom line or mission. Real-time fire info? Social’s your friend.

      6. Texan In Exile*

        I have asked how much a job pays on Facebook posts, not because I care (I wasn’t looking) but for the people who do want to know and who don’t want to be penalized for asking.

    3. Grey Duck 74*

      Yes!!!
      Or spell it out that the schedule is somewhat flexible, but generally XX hrs a week, including days, evenings and 1 Sat a month. Rotating with 3 others in department.

      Vague doesn’t work in a job ad when you’ve got non-standard hours. People will not submit a resume, rather than waiting until an interview. Save everyone’s time – yours, theirs, and the hiring team- and be clear in the job posting. Include the salary range too!

      1. OP4*

        I believe the salary is posted, but basically, it’s only 19 hours, which is noted, and everyone they’ll share coverage with has some flexibility, so it’s pretty difficult to make a specific posting. We kind of need to hear their hours to know if it’ll puzzle in

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          Can you do some of that puzzle-solving ahead of time? E.g. “This role will require working at least two of the following shifts every week, plus an additional 6-hour shift with flexible timing, to be determined in collaboration with others on the team:
          [Shift option 1 day/time]
          [Shift option 2 day/time]
          [Shift option 3 day/time]
          [Shift option 4 day/time]”

        2. Learn ALL the things*

          What about something like “X evenings a week and Y weekend days per month, to be negotiated based on the applicant’s availability”? Give them some level of what they can expect along with the knowledge that their availability will be taken into account in the process.

        3. Wendy*

          It will be hard to find someone who only wants to work 19 hours a week and has open availability

          In order to make ends meet, they will need to find another part time job offering 20 hours a week

          Requiring open availability does not make that possible

          1. New Jack Karyn*

            It doesn’t require open availability, though. It sounds like they have some flexibility for applicants’ schedules but infinitely so. Like, “Marcia can work Tuesday or Wednesday but not both,” where Marcia is a current employee.

            So, the employer needs to say, “19 hours a week, three short weekly shifts plus one Saturday a month.” And maybe something like, “Great for students and other folks with fixed, part-time schedules!”

      2. londonedit*

        I think this is unusual enough to need clarifying in the advert. I’ve never heard of a job where it’s basically ‘tell us what hours you can work and we’ll tell you if it works for us’. I know on my local Facebook page the admins don’t accept job adverts unless they list the company name, salary and hours – simply because so many MLM-type companies do the ‘Be your own boss! We are looking for new representatives for our exciting company’ thing but don’t list the details because they know MLMs aren’t allowed to advertise on the page. Anyone who knows anything about MLMs would be suspicious of a job advert where basic details aren’t included – and I think it’s vaguely red flaggy anyway. If I’m applying for a job I want to know it’s legit, and that means I want details of the company, the hours, preferably the salary before I’m going to apply.

    4. JSPA*

      Yes, the description posted (as described) is unclear enough that I’d post the question simply to be helpful, even with zero interest in the job.

      This could be two 8 hour shifts a week of de facto emergency backup. Or four 8 hour shifts in a set, predictable rotation, determined 2 weeks in advance. Or short stints of 2 hours at any of many shift changes where they are ending up needing more coverage at just the wrong time.

      “My partner can put our kids to bed and commit to staying home once a week, with two weeks’ notice, and my mom can pick them up from daycare and give them dinner once a week, ditto” is very different from “whelp, could be any time, with a few hours notice.”

      If you want to hire someone who plans well, write a description that will appeal to people who are used to planning, expect to plan, and plan well. If you want a warm body with broad availability, because you think that’ll be easier? Eh, it’s your right to make that decision…but make it explicit in the ad.

    5. Roster queen*

      Right? How hard is it to say “you’ll work a rotating roster 8am to 8pm, seven days a week” or whatever? Presumably you know your hours of business?

    6. learnedthehardway*

      Agreeing that spelling out the schedule in the job ad will be helpful to both candidates, and to you – someone who then messages you to ask about the job schedule will flag themselves as someone who doesn’t pay attention or read the materials they are given.

    7. Also-ADHD*

      I’ve seen people on social media (more LinkedIn than FB) ask clarifying comments in the comments as a way to highlight needed info in the ads, such as “You don’t post a location in the feed. Is this a remote or location specific job?” Or “I notice you’re hiring remotely, many states require salary into, what is your salary range for [insert state]?” I feel like hours is another thing that should just be clear in the ad (even if the clarification is it’s a rotating shift and will have wide enough variance you can’t tell particular info—though that’s going to turn off many applicants, I admit and not be great for most people who need PT work, which usually fits in around other stuff).,

    8. Bast*

      Yeah, I don’t think it’s unrealistic for potential applicants to want clarification as to what the hours are. It’s a completely reasonable question, and the wording in the ad is vague. A mismatch in availability is a waste of time for both the candidate and the employer.

    9. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      A very short “what are the hours?” question might also be about the *amount* – ie is this a full-time, ~40 hrs/week job or not?

    10. Loose Socks*

      At one point I was seeking a part time position. My biggest issue with finding a position is that most people that are hiring for a part time position don’t understand the reality of what they are asking for. They know they need someone, and they only need them part time, but don’t understand that someone working part time is choosing that FOR A REASON, and the main reason is because they are not available for full time. So all these companies that hire part time need to be aware that it is really inefficient to ask for full time availability for a part time position, which is essentially what the letter writer is asking for.

  3. Annie*

    So what WOULD be the “professional” or “correct” way to ask about hours or scheduling for a job posting on social media if commenting on the post, “What are the hours for this position?” isn’t?

    Is the correct way, “My availability is X on Y days. Is this adequate availability for the job?” or is it something else?

    1. Brain the Brian*

      I think the “professional” way to deal with it would be to send a DM — but if you’re commenting on the post, just ask what the expected hours are. No need to broadcast your personal schedule to everyone reading a public comments section.

      1. Pair of Does*

        But because they didn’t include necessary info in the description, if one person asks the hours question publicly, everyone else gets to see that answer as well, rather than everyone wasting everyone’s time with the same private message back and forth.

        1. Annie*

          Yeah, and it turns out in this specific case, the NUMBER of hours expected was already in the ad, but not schedule, so my proposed alternative of asking if a given sort of availability would work for the job was an even better way to get the sort of answer the other commenters were looking for.

    2. bamcheeks*

      I think they just want something more softened, written out like you’d write a full email:

      Hi

      I’m interested in this job, but I’ve got other responsibilities so I would need to know what the hours are. Could you share that please? Many thanks!

      (I would probably ANSWER the enquiry like this, but I think being put off by receiving a plain “what are the hours?” is over the top. It’s Facebook, it’s a casual medium. Someone commenting for more information is still showing interest and improving your reach!

      1. Wings*

        Something like this. Just adding “please” and “thanks” would probably go a long way. “Can you please explain the hours a little more thoroughly? What are the weekly total hours? Are you looking for a fixed, random, rotating or some other schedule? Thanks!”

      2. londonedit*

        Agreed on all counts. I do think the OP should have given details of the hours (or at least the shift pattern) – I can’t imagine applying for a job without knowing what the working hours were. So I can’t fault people for asking – it’s the first thing I’d do. I also can’t really fault people for responding to a Facebook post in the manner in which people generally respond to Facebook posts. Yes, in an ideal world they’d be a bit more formal about it because they’re trying to make a good impression, but people are used to asking very brief ‘what’s the price?’ ‘can you deliver?’ ‘what are the measurements?’ questions on Facebook Marketplace etc, so I can see why they’d treat a job advert in the same way.

        1. ferrina*

          Agree with this-
          Yes, it would be ideal if a candidate softened their language a bit.
          That said, it’s not a red flag that they didn’t, based on the medium (Facebook).

      3. amoeba*

        Yup, or even just “Could you share some more information on the hours? Thanks!”.

        But then we have no idea of the applicant pool/required education/required writing skills for this job – I mean, for an Executive Assistant or, idk, law job, I’d definitely want something more polished than for blue collar, food service, entry level positions, in general…

    3. OP4*

      My thought was including a greeting, and a please or a thank you. “Hi there. Do you mind including the hours? Thanks!”

      I’m also going to note that I don’t have any responsibility over the posting or the job itself; and the FB post was an ad directing them to the HR site where the actual post was (which has a bit more info).

      1. Seashell*

        I don’t think it’s the norm to put a greeting in Facebook comments to anonymous people.

        If they didn’t mind including the hours, the company would have done so in the initial post, so it wouldn’t occur to me to ask that way. “Could you please include the hours?” is about as polite as I would expect to see.

        2. Also-ADHD*

          That sounds passive aggressive to me weirdly, for a social media post. I get why it’s polite but the actual ask seems much more on tone with the medium to my brain.

        1. OP4*

          I just thought this was an interesting question for AAM and I thought the answer Alison has could be helpful for people

      3. I should really pick a name*

        I see no point in getting hung up on how they ask the question.

        It benefits neither the company nor the potential applicant.

        1. Anonym*

          Yeah, there are two pieces here: the very important fact that you need to include the hours (or at least the options) in the job posting, and the less important piece of taking the potential applicant’s comment style into account if they do apply.

          For the latter, I think the frequent AAM advice applies: if they’re a strong candidate, interview them, and just take the comment as one piece of the larger picture. So if they otherwise seem great, there’s nothing to worry about, but if there’s a pattern of seeming brusque or entitled, the pattern should be taken into account.

      4. Mockingjay*

        I think that’s an unrealistic expectation for a social media posting, especially Facebook. LinkedIn – as bad as it’s gotten – still has elements of formality because its target users are white collar business persons and managers. Facebook’s audience is everyone, regardless of situation and it has never been known for formality. (Remember it started as a college messaging service: “Yo! Party at 10 pm tonight in the dorm!”)

        But I think you’re missing the point – the ad is missing basic info that potential applicants really need to know. Post the hours or schedule info, or answer the question. I’ve asked similar, brief questions to local businesses when their post or ad didn’t have info I wanted to know. It’s about expediency, not courtesy: need to know the schedule so I can decide whether to apply.

        1. sparkle emoji*

          Yes, this exactly. Your expectations are not in line with Facebook’s norms and if this really is an issue for you, you should talk with HR about whether it makes sense to use Facebook as a job board going forward. But the larger faux pas is the fact that candidates had to ask for basic info to be added to the Facebook posting, not the manner in which they asked.

      5. Learn ALL the things*

        That’s not how people usually talk to each other on Facebook, though. You have to be mindful of the norms of the medium you’re posting to and not be put out when people follow those norms.

        1. Boof*

          Meh. I do think anyone looking at a job probably should consider how they interact with the potential employers on all fronts, but I agree a lot of people are just going to be in facebook mode not professional mode so unless the job is social media or something it’s probably not worth scrutinizing an overall reasonable/polite question too hard.

          1. Dahlia*

            But on facebook the person looking at the post might not even be applying to the job!! They could be thinking about sending the link to someone else but not wanting to send them a ton of spam, or they could be trying to figure out if this is a scam and they need to report it!

      7. Pair of Does*

        While it’s true they should probably have the instinct to soften the message since it’s part of job seeking, that’s not the norm for how to word a FB comment, since reacting to someone’s post comes with the linguistic convention that you’re already in a conversation. Think about it – if you post a picture of the sunset on vacation, most people are going to say something like “Wow, so pretty!” – it would come across as elderly or tech-illiterate if someone commented, “Hi, I just saw this photo, I think it’s very pretty. Thank you!”

        1. Pair of Does*

          (Mandatory disclaimer that this doesn’t mean that elderly people *are* tech-illiterate, just that the second wording there would only ever be seen from your 95 year old great aunt. Most everyone younger than that knows the conventions of social media comments.)

          (Basically: use a casual forum, get casual responses.)

          1. Hroethvitnir*

            Hahaha, my friend’s mother (far from 90s) comments on Facebook photos exactly like writing an email, complete with sign off and full name. It’s incredible.

  4. anon for this*

    #2 I went through a similar situation, also as a new manager recently! One of my employees asked to move their schedule up 90 min earlier, I said we could try it out and see how it went before making it permanent. I come in on the later side and stay later than most. My own boss happens to be an early bird, and noticed my employee was coming in almost an hour later than agreed upon most days, so still beating me to the office, but still taking long-ish lunches and leaving early. After much discussion about it with my boss, this situation ended up with me revoking my employee’s earlier schedule and requiring them to go back to working standard hours. Employee actually cried during that meeting and we were both frustrated and uncomfortable for a bit, but they did start working a standard schedule again with full hours. Our team is inundated with work and most people are over capacity, so we had a follow-up discussion about if they’re leaving early because they’re not busy, they needed to talk to me so we could redistribute some work. This was a new position, plus my employee was new to the office world and I was new to managing, so that set of factors made it challenging to find the right workload for my employee in the first year. It was one of the tougher situations I’ve had to address as a manager, but I got through it!

  5. Pink Sprite*

    OP 4: I’m a group admin for a public city/community Facebook group. We receive job postings every week.
    One of our group rules is that all businesses/nonprofits/events posts must contain a specific list of information. If an employer submitted a post without being as specific as possible (meaning v v specific), I decline it and explain what must be included.
    I know what’s needed because of how many posts I’ve approved and the ones that are well done versus the ones that are a mess.
    And if people are commenting with questions and the business isn’t replying, I either tag them or message them.
    No foolishness in my group.

    1. Hroethvitnir*

      Nice work! Well moderated spaces are so good, and I admit I am unwilling to do the moderation, so a lot of gratitude here.

    3. Knope Knope Knope*

      Good work! OP needs to remember that Facebook is a public space. People commenting asking about something as basic as hours instead of showing excitement about the role probably is what’s throwing him off but it’s a sign the job ad is porky written. Leaving those comments unanswered gives the appearance of being unresponsive (and won’t help in the algorithm). A simple, polite reply will make the company look like it cares about prospective employees whereas now the whole thing looks negative.

      1. OP4*

        I mean, what I was looking for was, I thought, pretty basic courtesy. Like a greeting or a please or thank you. “Hi there. Do you mind sharing the hours? Thanks!”

        Besides that, the ad was a link to the official post on the HR page.

        1. winterflake*

          Those “courtesies” are not typical of FB comments, and should not be expected there. It would be very weird to write like that in such a space!

          You are applying the wrong norms.

          1. OP4*

            I shut down my FB in 2009, so it makes sense I’m out of touch on it! Part of the reason I wrote in to ask

            1. Polly*

              Even though there is a link to the official job posting in the FB post, why wouldn’t you include everything from the official post in the FB post? If you’re advertising a job on FB, include all of the details.

              Also, regarding the hours: I understand that it’s easier for YOU to ask applicants for their availability and see if it’s fits the job’s existing schedule, but it’s definitely NOT a small thing to ask applicants to send you their entire availability. Could you take the existing schedule and base the required hours on that, while also adding a note that the schedule is somewhat flexible?

              1. TK*

                My question would be why would you include everything from the official post in the FB post, when there’s a link? That’s the point of the link. FB algorithms are also less likely to push out a longer post as much as a shorter one.

                1. Texan In Exile*

                  Because asking people to click out is asking them to work. You want to make it as easy as possible for people to do what you want them to do, which, in this case, is have enough information to know whether they want to apply for the job.

                2. Pink Sprite*

                  The little AI gremlins who are now basically running Facebook, don’t like any posts that take people away FROM Facebook.
                  That’s secondary to why I require posts to follow the format I set out, but it does matter.

            3. Worldwalker*

              I don’t use Facebook myself. But I’m sufficiently familiar with it and its norms to know that demanding that someone write a question in such a deferential way is the equivalent of demanding that they format emails like we learned to write business letters in the 70s, with all the mailing address in the proper places and woe to the student who got them switched and faced the teacher’s wrath.

              We don’t end our emails with “Sincerely yours” like we used to with postal mail, let alone the 18th-century phrase “Your most humble and obedient servant” that it’s short for. A lot of people don’t even include their names. It’s a different medium and a different expected standard.

              So demanding that people use a format that is out of the ordinary in a medium, and even more so, requiring them to use very deferential phrasing, is not only making you look extremely out of touch, but for me, at least, it would be a red flag. They want me to ask an essential question about the job HOW? And say upfront that you only need to tell me that vital information if they don’t mind? If it’s too much of a bother to them, I should just apply for a job I might not even be able to do, and find out in the interview? A company that wants me to do all the work because they “mind” putting information about the schedule in their ad is one I’d be somewhat reluctant to work for. What other burdens would be unusually asymmetrical?

              1. amoeba*

                Huh. I mean, granted, I’m not on FB a lot, but like… people are still friendly there, no? I mean, “What are the hours” wouldn’t make me particularly angry or anything, but I’d definitely find it quite brusque. And I definitely wouldn’t say adding a “Thanks!” is old-fashioned or unsuitable for social media or whatever and find the comparison with outdated norms quite strange.

                1. mlem*

                  Could this be regional? I find “What are the hours?” to be nicely to-the-point and not impolite as a comment on a job listing, but I’m in a Northeast quasi-urban area.

                2. sparkle emoji*

                  Agree with mlem. I think punctuation can make a difference with tone over text, but “What are the hours?” is a pretty basic bland question, doesn’t feel rude to me. “Hours????” would be a different story, but that doesn’t seem to be happening.

                3. I Have RBF*

                  I don’t consider it brusque. It’s short, sweet, and to the point. Very typical of FB replies.

                4. Pair of Does*

                  Friendly vs unfriendly is the wrong spectrum to think about with this. As I wrote above, it’s more that social media comments responding to a post you’ve already made come with the convention of speaking as though you’re already in a conversation – OP started it by posting the job ad.

                  Adding “Hi” at the beginning as though you’re physically walking up to someone at a desk would come across as un-tech-savvy, not as polite. “What are the hours?” is a perfectly fine way to ask that question.

                5. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                  “Thanks” at the end would be fine. Starting with a greeting would be really weird, or would have before I gave up Facebook; the norms may have evolved. “What are the hours? Thanks!” would be polite and normal. “Good morning, can you please let me know the hours? Thank you, Amoeba” would be weird.

                6. amoeba*

                  @mlem very possibly, yes! I do live in a country that’s known for its politeness, and even though I’m originally German (known for our rudeness in general, haha), I’ve gotten very used to the “adding social niceties to everything” kind of communicating…

            4. Snarkaeologist*

              By social media norms, when this post appeared in people’s feeds it was you/your company going up to them and announcing you have a job opportunity. You’re already talking to them – why would they back up and introduce themselves like the conversation wasn’t ongoing?

        2. Observer*

          I mean, what I was looking for was, I thought, pretty basic courtesy. Like a greeting or a please or thank you. “Hi there. Do you mind sharing the hours? Thanks!”

          Except that that’s not typical of responses to Facebook posts. *Especially not* comments on a post. If you (general company you) are going to use a particular medium for job outreach, it behooves you to understand the norms of that medium.

        3. LL*

          If you’re talking about what people are saying in the comments under the post, that would be a really, really weird way to word something on facebook. It’s completely normal to just say “what are the hours?”
          Even with Messenger people aren’t usually that formal, but it depends.

    4. KKR*

      Amazing!! I wish you were in charge of the rules for all community Facebook groups!! I hate when people post super vague “I’m looking for someone for this job” posts and won’t even state what type of experience they are looking for or what job they are hiring for – it’s almost always just for social media engagement or an MLM :(

    5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      That sounds like a good for your situation. The OP did comment above that it was a facebook ad that tells people to go to the company HR website which has more details. Being that it is an ad and not a normal post I think that changes things. There’s only so much you can put in an ad and if it directs people to the site that has those details then they should be going to the website and not expecting information from the ad comments.

      1. Polly*

        If that’s the case, then my comment above about putting everything in the FB posting might be unworkable. I didn’t realize there was a character limit in FB for those sorts of posts.

      2. SometimesCharlotte*

        “Hiring PT phone customer service for small office in City. Rotating day/evening/weekend schedule 8am-7pm. $17/hr start. No WFH. See our website for more details”

        Short. Answers the pertinent questions. No need to get bogged down in the details, just give people the basics they need to know whether to bother to apply!

  6. UnderTheRadar*

    It doesn’t get much more casual than advertising for part time workers on Facebook, so complaining about the lack of deference and formality you get in replies there is disingenuous. Consider also that the person asking the questions that your posting isn’t answering may well not be interested in applying. Sometimes folks who are not looking for work will ask this questions to save the people who are looking from having to possibly make a poor impression with the ask. Being vague about basic things like hours and salary is a big turnoff for a lot of people. Literally no one wants to wait until an interview to see if a job is going to worth their time or yours. Worry less about getting what you consider to be an appropriate amount of deference, and more about providing enough information for applicants to help you with the initial screening process by self selecting out if they aren’t a match.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah on Facebook you’re equally likely to get someone who’s asking for a friend as an actual applicant. It’s also possible for people to be on Facebook with a different name than the one they’ll officially apply with. OP is treating Facebook like it’s a formal medium.

    2. dot*

      Good point. I’ve been very tempted in the past to consistently ask for pay information on posts that don’t advertise it, just so anyone who would actually be applying wouldn’t need to ask.

    3. Art of the Spiel*

      I’ve been that person patiently explaining to the OP that social media posts and replies aren’t just a private conversation, they are often for the benefit of OTHER readers.

    4. Alan*

      Yeah, expecting any sort of formality on Facebook makes me think someone said “All the young people use Facebook. We should advertise there.” It’s like when you teach your grandparent to text and they then send you a text starting “Dear Alan” and end with “Love Grandma”. Know your medium!

    6. Coffee break*

      This is the correct answer. It’s a simple question, I don’t get the part where this simple question is somehow wrong?

  7. Free Meerkats*

    Please tell me why “What are the hours?” is in any way inappropriate wording. It’s simple and direct.

    2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      I suspect that “I’m really excited to see that Llama Grooming Ltd is hiring! Would it be possible to tell me more about the hours you would be expecting me to work so that I can let my other job know whether I can stay on there or not?” would go down much better.

      1. KateM*

        For employer for sure, but it would be a lot of fluff for people who are seeking actual information (other readers).

        1. KateM*

          By which I guess I mean – if you are a jobseeker, then the fawning version is better; if you are someone who wants to help jobseekers, then the blunt version is better.

          1. Coffee break*

            It’s super weird people think they need or even like the fawning.

            I’m all for less fawning.

            1. KateM*

              Yeah, me too, but there seems to be a demand for that. I always feel tortured when I need to fluff up my texts. :(

      2. OP4*

        No, that’d be weird.

        I was just thinking a little basic courtesy: a greeting and maybe a please or thank you. “Hi there. Do you mind sharing the hours? Thanks!”

        1. Worldwalker*

          Why should you only give them essential information if you don’t mind? If it’s too much of a bother for you to list the hours, it’s going to be too much of a bother for a lot of people (including most of the non-desperate ones) to apply for the job.

          Also, nobody talks like that on Facebook.

        2. Everything Bagel*

          It seems you are irked because you think the person who posted the question was abrupt and perhaps ill mannered. However, they were concise and immediately brought to your attention that your ad for the job is not clear about the hours. I think what you’re getting from most of the comments here is that it is Facebook, yes the person who posted was casual, and yes you need to update your ad. Maybe let your feelings about it go now.

          1. Everything Bagel*

            And thanks to another commenter I just realized that the person who posted the question to Facebook also wrote, “before I bother to apply. ” I can see that coming off as abrupt and a little rude, but again, maybe at this point you should let your feelings go and concentrate on improving the ad. The person who posted the question may have seen a million ads that day that had frustrating wording and requirements, and is just tired of all the hoops one has to go through when job hunting.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              There were two responses. The public comment was just “What are the hours?” and most of the commentariat is talking about that one.

              There was also a DM that asked “What are the hours before I bother to reply,” which is ruder and would make me unlikely to respond/hire them.

      3. amoeba*

        Eh, “Could you please share the hours? Thanks!” would probably be enough for most people, no need to get deferential (and I doubt that’s what the LW’s expecting…)

      4. I Have RBF*

        LOL! I never see such obsequious verbiage on FB. “What are the hours?” is a perfectly reasonable way to ask.

      1. Myrin*

        I’m really not sure why you felt the need to post several pretty aggressive comments on this ultimately quite harmless situation. OP wasn’t sure about the norms regarding this issue, so she wrote in to Alison. Alison answered, and now OP knows and can act accordingly.

    4. Worldwalker*

      It isn’t.

      And it shouldn’t need to be asked, because it’s one of the basic things that should have been in the as.

    5. Fiona-a-a*

      I’m in some Facebook groups that often get job postings, and some of those job postings can be exploitative. I’m not saying LW’s job posting is exploitative; however, exploitative job postings exist. Sometimes, I’ll respond to one that could go either way and has vague wording with a question like “What are the hours?” or “What is the pay rate?” because if the hours are “All of them, actually” or the pay rate is “Fifty cents an hour under the table,” sometimes the poster will say that in the comments, and others will know to steer clear.

      LW’s company also has an opportunity here to differentiate from exploitative companies here by being more clear about the hours.

    6. Dancing Otter*

      I don’t think it was the question itself.

      It was the reference to “‘bother’ to apply” that rankled. That sounds unnecessarily negative to me, but of course we aren’t seeing the whole comment.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        That was in a DM from a separate user. The public comment was just “What are the hours?”

  8. Cassandra*

    #4: The purpose of asking bluntly about the hours in a comment, as opposed to a message, is so anyone else looking at the job posting can also see that information easily. It’s to help out other job seekers too. And I don’t see any reason why asking about something as basic as a job’s hours would be an unacceptable question. More details would serve you well, OP- “days, evenings, and the occasional Saturday” make it sound like a grueling job with no work-life balance. It’s reasonable to ensure that’s not the case before deciding to apply.

    1. Bilateralrope*

      The employer should prefer having to answer the question once for everyone, instead of dealing with many identical questions.

      Unless they want to conceal their refusal to answer the question. Then a public, unanswered, question becomes really useful for all potential applicants.

      1. KateM*

        Yes, EXACTLY this. I am in a community with a different kind of ads, but the most-valued employers, when getting a question like that, answer “It is X. I have also modified my posting to reflect it.”.

      2. Also-ADHD*

        This is what I suspected and why I sometimes post queries on jobs I have no interest in applying to which seem to have missing info, as others have noted they do.

      3. OP4*

        Fwiw, I don’t really have responsibility over the FB. I went on to look at something related to my job, and noticed unread notifications

  9. TheBunny*

    Ugh on the job ad.

    OP…it’s not the wording of the questions from potential applicants that’s the issue…it’s that they have questions at all about something as basic as when they will be working.

    If details like hours aren’t spelled out, asking is reasonable, especially if the ad is like yours and gives reason to think the hours might be variable. And if that’s the case, getting an idea as to what those are really could mean the difference in an applicant being interested or passing on the role.

    And while we’re at it…please don’t be like one of my former employers who literally approached applicants with the mindset that WE were doing them the favor by interviewing them. It goes both ways.

    1. OP4*

      I don’t understand the hostility here, tbh.

      For one, I don’t even have any authority over the job ad, posting, or the job itself. I just happened to see it and noticed that it hadn’t been responded to, and then I asked around to see if it was okay to respond and what the answer was.

      For another, I don’t think that I made any implication of us doing them a favor. I just said I thought the standard courtesy you’d show in an email would be better. To me, including a greeting and a please or thank you.

      Finally, this was just a conversation around the office for like 10 minutes. It was interesting and I thought it might be helpful for people to know how FB comments are reacted to, and I was interested in Alison’s take.

      1. Cookie Monster*

        I honestly don’t get the hostility here either, OP4. And yes, communication on FB is more casual, but I’m with you that if it’s a message about a professional situation…well, then, slightly more professional communication is not unreasonable.

      2. Boof*

        This is the problem with the internet; people feel like they are talking to a void/aren’t seeing all the inflection and nuance they would if they were directly talking to someone’s face, but it feels like it is being said directly to you and easy to fix on all the negative parts.
        I do think people are being a bit harsh on you, myself, but this is also pretty typical flippant internet hot takes on the situation

      3. Cranky Old Bat*

        I think the hostility in the comments in general (I don’t find TheBunny’s comment particularly hostile, but that’s me) might be coming from you not understanding that the question is reasonable because whoever wrote the ad didn’t include the hours. Also that you haven’t acknowledged that FB is essentially an informal medium and you are being a bit harsh on the people who asked the question. There also may be cultural considerations you don’t know about–the bluntness may be that person’s business communication norm. Plus, you haven’t seemed to consider that maybe your company has some responsibility here.

        Vague job ads are a symptom of a very sick job market. While you might not have the authority over the ad, perhaps you have some influence over how they’re written in the future.

      4. MigraineMonth*

        Hey OP4, if you’re still reading (and I wouldn’t blame you if you stopped!) there’s a couple of dynamics that happen in comment sections, even in ones as well-moderated as Alison’s.

        The first is that pile-ons are pretty much inevitable. This site is really popular, so a dozen people may be writing basically the same comment at the same time and they won’t see the others until after they post. Also, there are so many comments that no one reads the entire comment section before posting, so you get duplicates that way too. (In fact, quite a few don’t even finish reading the question/answer before responding.) It might seem like a discussion where everyone belabors the same point over and over again when you read through it, but actually it’s several dozen people saying the first thing that comes to their mind without hearing each other.

        The second is that group-think sets in pretty quickly. Details of the original question get obscured by points that get brought up by commenters, and what started as a question about the level of formality that should be used when job-seeking on Facebook turns into an indictment of the way employers treat job seekers. You’ll notice that many of the comments have lost track of or mixed up details from your question, and comments later in that thread will repeat that confusion. It’s like a self-contained little rumor mill. Meanwhile your clarifications about not being the one responsible for the posting may not spread the same way the inaccuracies do, or get ignored.

        It’s a madhouse here, so try to just skim the main points: 1) Facebook is pretty casual, so your company would probably be best off answering the comment about hours; and 2) it’s pretty unclear from the way the shifts are stated whether the hours are completely flexible or if the company expects the job seeker to be completely flexible, so a lot of candidates may be self-selecting out.

    2. Pizza Rat*

      I spent half of last year out of work and that attitude is way too common. I ran into people from companies who seemed to want me to treat their position as my dream job and they were the only company I would ever want to work for. These were typically the ones that would request a sample project and then ghost me.

      I landed in a good place where my skills and talents are respected and valued. Only two interviews, too.

  10. learnedthehardway*

    OP#3 – hire the most qualified candidate.

    Your wife is making some ugly assumptions about other women and about you – either that you would cheat or that you would sexually harass a subordinate. Ask her how she would feel if she was discriminated against in hiring, simply because of her gender.

    1. WS*

      Yeah, I last saw this kind of thing back in the 1980s, when my dad’s (almost entirely male) workplace hired a female apprentice and nobody wanted to have her work with them in a job involving car travel and overnights because “what will the wife say?” My dad took her on as his apprentice, she was great, and now there’s a lot more women doing that job, though it’s still about 70% male.

      1. ThatOtherClare*

        Please deliver my day’s allocation of non-redeemamble brownie points to your Dad for being a good human being in the face of peer pressure!

      3. 1-800-BrownCow*

        As a woman working in a male dominant field that still runs into the “what will the wife say?” in 2024, thank your awesome father for me. I’ve missed out on many business trips that I suspect are because someone didn’t want to travel alone with another woman, although they won’t admit it to me because “lawsuit”. But I’ve had a few hints made so I know it was the reasoning behind it.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      Some people don’t understand how attraction and intimacy is created, and it’s these things the wife is probably wishing to avoid, rather than actual sex or overt attempts to get sex. She probably assumes the closeness of the position will create inappropriate intimacy. OP can use a counsellor to broach these topics of what kinds of behaviours are appropriate with others, especially subordinates. OP would need them with an employee of any gender.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Oh, I would also caution the OP against faith based counselling because they tend to prescribe avoidance of certain genders, rather than personal responsibility and appropriate boundaries; choose a counsellor with a proven track record. If you go with an infidelity specialist, that person would be able to speak knowledgeably about what actually causes affairs, which would take the wife’s concerns seriously while giving her a better knowledge base and framework to address them.

    3. RBG*

      Yes, this is the exact scenario shown in “On the Basis of Sex” where male law partners refused to hire Ruth Bader Ginsburg as an associate because their wife would disapprove.

    4. Ms. Whatsit*

      That last point is what came to mind for me; maybe a way of breaking through would be to ask her whether she’d like to be treated like she’s asking for the candidate to be treated. That doesn’t resolve the insecurity or trust issue, but a sense of fairness could help counterbalance it while that’s being addressed.

      1. Maleficent*

        You’re asking the wife to put someone elses’ needs (their need for a job) above her own needs (the need to feel secure). It won’t work. She’s already aware of the imbalance and is prioritizing herself.

        1. ferrina*

          Yeah, someone that would make this request is already in an overly defensive headspace. Defensive headspaces usually aren’t receptive headspaces.

      2. mlem*

        I regretfully suspect that the sort of person who would object to her husband hiring a woman would either proclaim that she wouldn’t be working out of the home or would of COURSE never apply for a job working closely with a man.

        2. Bossy*

          So, the kind of person I thought we left well behind on yesteryear, but nope.
          Actually what am I saying, plenty of women are incredibly threatened by other women. Ask me how I know. Meanwhile, I’m always like ew, you think I want THAT GUY? Clearly you like him, but, um noo…. Spoiler alert, these woman are also offended when you’re like No I don’t think your husband is attractive and no I am not interested in him LMAO

    6. So very anonymous*

      Or his wife may not be assuming at all, and has good reason to suspect he would try to cheat and/or harass a subordinate. Which is still not a good reason to discriminate based on gender.

    7. Tiger Snake*

      I like to assume most people aren’t paranoid and crazy, and do not marry people who are paranoid and crazy.

      Unfortunately that assumption makes me wonder if OP#3 is deliberately not telling us the reason WHY their wife has cause to not want them to hire a woman, which makes me look paranoid and crazy.

      In either direction, it means that there is a marriage problem, not a work problem. Much as I understand why OP#3’s business is important to them, perhaps writing to AAM as opposed to a relationship counsellor is being obtuse.

  11. allathian*

    LW3, you don’t have a work problem, you have a wife problem.

    Hire the best candidate regardless of gender, and I seriously suggest talking to a couples counselor. Your wife clearly has some trust issues, impossible to tell as an outsider if they’re justified or not.

    1. Zweisatz*

      I could not tell from the letter, but just for completeness sake: If your wife is controlling in other aspects of your relationship and you DON’T feel you can stand up for yourself without receiving punishment later, I would warmly recommend individual therapy for yourself, OP. Couple’s counselors can be more damaging than helpful in such a situation.

      Please note though that I’m not saying this is the situation you are in, only you know that. If you are otherwise equals in this relationship couples counseling sounds like a good step.

    3. Part time lab tech*

      Unless you’ve cheated on her before (or someone else). In which case you’ve still not got a work problem, you’ve got a you and monogamy problem.

    4. Typity*

      And if the LW can’t get things sorted out in his relationship right away, he needs to be very certain his wife won’t harass the new employee.

      In family-owned businesses, the boss’s spouse can have a lot of power to create problems. If LW’s wife is already on edge about this, she could make things very difficult for the new hire. That possibility has to be named and headed off before the hire is made. Nobody deserves to walk into someone else’s relationship minefield.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Which still doesn’t mean you can pass over the women, LW. It means you have to hire the most qualified candidate *and then* protect them from harassment. Anything else would be illegal (and immoral).

  12. Daria grace*

    #4, While the way they phrased the question is maybe a touch on the casual side, it’s very reasonable info to request before applying. Writing a good cover letter takes time so it’s understandable people want to confirm things that would be complete deal breakers if they can easily do so first

    1. OP4*

      Yeah, that’s my thought. I thought it was just a little casual and could use a little better wording. I wrote into AAM because it was an interesting topic of conversation and I thought the answer could be helpful to people

      1. Jazmine*

        FB comments are inherently going to be casual. If your workplace chooses to promote their job ads there, they should expect comments appropriate to that context.

        I’d honestly be more concerned by someone posting a comment such as those you have suggested elsewhere in comments (““Hi there. Do you mind sharing the hours? Thanks!”) as that would seem to suggest a candidate who is out of touch with social media use and doesn’t know how to adapt their writing to fit the context. Which might not be an issue for the role, but would give me slight pause.

        1. Learn ALL the things*

          That’s actually a really good point. You want an applicant who can tailor their communication style to suit the medium they’re using. Someone making a casual Facebook post who submits a cover letter with the appropriate level of formality is showing you that they can read the room and adjust their communication style accordingly, which is a really good skill for an employee to have!

        2. Boof*

          Meh, I disagree, they could also be showing that they are social media savy enough to know their potential employer/interviewer might be reading their comments.

        3. LL*

          I don’t think it matters either way. I’m on Facebook a lot and people write in all sorts of different styles. I wouldn’t judge them for this wording either. I would judge them if I had to read their comment more than once because it wasn’t clear the first time, though.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        I think it does make an interesting discussion. A lot of the internet sort of blurs the line between formality and informality and the question of how to react to a job advertisement on a relatively informal medium like facebook isn’t something I considered before.

        I do think we should all give a little slack for people being either too formal or too informal in situations like this though because it is a relatively new way of holding such conversations and norms probably haven’t been fully established.

        1. Another Hiring Manager*

          Personally, I wouldn’t put a job ad on Facebook because of the casual nature of social media. I agree a little slack for informality is a good thing in this case.

          Of course to avoid even having this discussion, all relevant information should be put in the job ad.

      3. Paint N Drip*

        I find it interesting that you keep mentioning that it is an interesting topic of conversation and then also seem to be defensive when the topic is discussed. It IS an interesting topic of discussion and I hope you don’t take it all too personally. Thank you for writing in, and I hope you guys find a great hire.

    2. Clisby*

      Agree. The way it’s worded, it could mean some people will work days, some people will work nights, everybody works one Saturday a month. Or it could be: every two weeks we make up an advance schedule and just kind of throw the dice as to who’ll be working when. For me, the first would be fine and the second would be no way.

  13. Ellen Ripley*

    For LW5, I had the same problem through grad school! Though unfortunately for me it happened more than twice. And it is embarrassing, and makes you worry about your reputation, even though it is out of your control.

    I thought about talking to my old advisor about it but couldn’t come up with a way to discuss it without it sounding like an excuse.

    (I am super curious what your diagnosis was since I have the same issue, but it’s understandable if you don’t want to share it!)

    2. Brain the Brian*

      Sigh. I feel LW5 (in fact, I’m writing this at nearly 5am, having been totally unable to sleep all night, as is too often the norm for me, and I know I’m going to be exhausted all day at work), but I very much understand why a boss would be livid at an employee sleeping on the job, whatever the reason. It’s inexcusable if understandable. I don’t think I’d contact an old boss proactively in LW5’s shoes, but I might mention it if I saw them at a conference or something.

      1. Art of the Spiel*

        Sleep apnea can feel like not being able to sleep all night. What’s actually happening is you fall asleep for a few seconds to a minute, with no awareness you’ve fallen asleep (or woken up) so it just feels like an interminable period of being awake. Not everyone awakes with the startled gasp that is the ‘hallmark’ of sleep apnea!

        And PSA to anyone else: not everyone struggles with CPAP. Yes there’s a break-in period where you have to learn to breathe in sync, but it changed my life overnight. I couldn’t believe how I felt the first day!!! And now, I find it very comforting, like white noise is for some people.

        1. Brain the Brian*

          Mine is not sleep apnea. It’s wide-awake-staring-at-the-ceiling-for-hours-despite-trying-to-sleep anxiety. Fun, fun times.

      2. Been There 2*

        I think if I were LW5, I would proactively contact the old boss only in hopes that it might help them to be more open-minded about similar situations with employees.

    3. Lokifan*

      not OP but 4 possible suggestions: sleep apnea, thyroid problems, iron or vitamin D deficiency, narcolepsy.

      1. LW5*

        It was actually a combination of sleep apnea and a side effect of a medication that I was on at the time. Switched to a different medication and got the sleep apnea treated. I still have days where I’m really tired but not so tired that I fall asleep at my desk

        1. Polly*

          I’m glad you got it figured out! Trying to stay awake so you can do you job and not lose it is rough.

          When I was prescribed Prozac, and I was already taking Zyrtec, no one mentioned that that specific combination could make me feel exhausted all the time. I didn’t figure out out for almost a year. Thank goodness my previous job had pumping rooms that were unused for a good chunk of the afternoon so I could nap and still do my job!

        2. Anon Again... Naturally*

          I feel for you so much. I have sleep apnea and chronic insomnia, and before I got diagnosed there were days when I just couldn’t stay awake. Now that I have treatments for both, those days are much fewer, but I still have them sometimes. Fortunately I now work from home and can take a nap during my lunch hour if I need to (and I chose the hour lunch option specifically so I could).

      2. Isarine*

        I appreciate Vitamin D deficiency being on this list! I have a severe deficiency that supplements can only help but not fix, so while I can now safely drive (most days), I still get “sleep attacks” and need more nighttime sleep or more naps than the average person. Most people just don’t want to understand it’s a real problem.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          I am this person too! 9 hours of sleep MINIMUM for good mood – and my desire for snacking/sugar is 100x higher after not getting enough sleep. But my D levels are normal on blood tests. I hope anyone reading this and finding any ‘aha’ moments takes this away – normal ranges are for keeping us alive, some of us have higher or lower normals and some of us have a different range for keeping us alive versus keeping us actually living a good life.

    4. anon for this*

      Same. Grad school, didn’t know sleep quality was a disaster (sleep fragmentation). Surprise diagnosis was a game-changer. I told my supervisor, who was good about it, and the one person who’d taken me aside to complain that I’d fallen asleep (she responded but I couldn’t make sense of her email because it was all over the place and I’m still not sure what that was about).

    5. Alan*

      I call BS on the grandboss’s response. Quite a few times I’ve been in meetings and seen people nodding off, and it’s always the older folks, the grandboss cohort. (And I’m not picking on old people; I’m a boomer myself.) Your boss handled it appropriately, although even there I hope they were kind. I worked as a student which sometimes involved driving 100 miles a day. It was brutal. I don’t ever remember falling asleep but I do remember completely missing a red light and being so tired that I didn’t even recognize that a cop was trying to pull me over. When I finally clued in and pulled over I told him I was working and going to school and no, I hadn’t been drinking, and I just wanted the ticket so I could go home and sleep. I was apparently too pathetic for him to ticket. He just scolded me and cut me loose.

      1. LW5*

        Yes, boss was extremely kind in handling this. He was really great to work for and I wish he hadn’t retired because I would love to work for him again.

    6. Minimal Pear*

      I know that when I experienced this in school it was a combination of intrusive sleep from ADHD and general exhaustion from insomnia/chronic illnesses.

  14. Ellis Bell*

    I think OP1s boss is being ridiculous, but it definitely reminded me of the Jerry Seinfeld rule about the second button…

    1. KateM*

      I don’t know if I have seen too many men’s undershirt with too low neck lines or what, but Alison’s reply made me wonder how many buttons on that shirt had to be undone for an undershirt to make a difference.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        I think it really depends on the style of the shirt. Classic (oxford? or are those just shoes?) button-downs that you’d wear with a tie and under a jacket have many small buttons and rather stiff fabric – 2 undone would be barely collarbone visible. But button-downs that lean more casual/comfortable tend towards the Tommy Bahama-vibe larger buttons (NONE on the collar) and perhaps only 5-7 of them, so 2 undone could be approaching nip-level – if this shirt is soft/drapey that could be A LOT of chest.

  15. AG*

    Regarding OP #1, if body hair wasn’t allowed, not rolling up my sleeves would not be enough. My hands are covered in hair, almost the same density as on my lower arms. How would I even cover that up?

    2. Knope Knope Knope*

      lol I agree. That said you don’t want to walk around looking like Disco Stu. I found it interesting that OP didn’t say how many buttons were unbuttoned. I’d say one or two max (I’d have to see the shirt to know, I suppose). Some people can button all the buttons or wear an undershirt and still show chest hair. I’m a woman, and though I do shave my legs, I have light hair and a fairly lazy approach. It’s not an issue when I wear skirts. It’s about the overall professionalism of the look. If OP is wearing more formal clothes, but wearing them in a way that reads as less professional, he might be better off wearing a t shirt on hot days. The comment about shaving his chest is just weird.

      2. ferrina*

        Yeah, context matters here.

        It’s like cleavage- with some bodies it’s pretty unavoidable (unless you are always wearing turtlenecks), and we all just accept that it’s part of bodies. But when someone deliberately showcases it, it’s icky, because it’s bringing sex into a place where it doesn’t belong (and yes, I’ve met men who think that chest hair is a sign of their Manliness, and they’ll unbutton too low and I swear they teased their chest hair up so it showed.)

        But regardless the context, the boss’s comment about how OP should treat his body hair was weird and inappropriate.

        1. sagc*

          Wait, is the implication that people with more cleavage or chest hair are automatically “deliberately showcasing” it, when they’re actually just wearing what everyone else is?

          1. ferrina*

            No! I didn’t mean to imply that at all! Sorry!
            I don’t mean the people that have cleavage/chest hair just by wearing clothes.
            I meant the people that are choosing clothes to show off their cleavage/chest hair because the goal is to show as much cleavage/chest hair as possible.

            I should also add that I meant purely in a work/office context. If you are at the beach/not work, totally different!!

    3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      technically — the hair on your head is body hair. It’s hair on the top of your body. Beards are body hair. It’s hair on the face part of your body.

      Now do I want to see a half unbuttoned shirt on a guy at work – no. No more than I want to see a half unbuttoned shirt on a woman at work. But a couple of buttons that expose some chest hair. Puhlease.

      1. Kiella*

        I suspect the issue is really that the OP unbuttoned “an extra button”, i.e. in addition to those he always wears unbuttoned, and this took it more to the “half-unbuttoned” side. If he usually wears the top two buttons unfastened, and this was a third button being undone, that could have just been a step too far. I’m thinking about the debate over Emmanuel Macron’s unbuttoned shirt a couple of years ago – the photos from that were definitely not workplace appropriate for anywhere I have worked!

        1. LW1*

          Gotta admit, it’s kinda funny seeing people coming to the conclusion that I must have my shirt “halfway unbuttoned.” By “an extra button” I meant 2 buttons instead of 1. I am just a particularly hairy guy, so my chest hair is more readily visible than most people’s.

          1. Hroethvitnir*

            If it helps, I assumed 2 vs 1 was the overwhelmingly likely case. My friend has chest hair that shows with typically high cut men’s tees so the normal amount to loosen a shirt exposing! hair! tracks.

            I’m sorry your boss is being weird, I think it sucks a lot.

    4. Justme, The OG*

      My face is covered in hair (not just the hair on top of my head). I suppose I need to cover that too?

      1. Phony Genius*

        There are still employers who ban facial hair, including some offices. They do have to allow for religious and medical needs. (I think California banned such bans, but I don’t know of any other states.)

        1. I strive to Excel*

          A lot of food service places require that all hair, be it on the head or the face, be covered, shaved, or otherwise tied back with a hair net/beard net/hat/etc. But that’s food safety, not aesthetics or professionalism.

        2. Sharkie*

          Yep. I had a friend that worked for the Yankees a few years back and men are not allowed to have any facial or hair that touches their ears. No exceptions. I knew it was a rule for the players (which that is eh) , but to have it extend to the front office is wild to me.

    5. Fiona-a-a*

      Yes! I came here to say many people have body hair on their hands!

      And that aside – most people have hair on their heads!

    6. amoeba*

      Also, I mean, in most offices short/half length sleeves are fine, at the very least for women – and yeah, there’s hair on our arms, too!

    7. 1-800-BrownCow*

      My husband is part grizzly bear. He’d be in a world of trouble if body hair wasn’t allowed in the workplace.

      The only thing I personally can think of that would necessitate covering the body hair is that I work in medical device manufacturing and body hair has to be covered in certain manufacturing areas. But we have standard PPE that everyone wears (Tyvek suits, hair nets, gloves, etc) in those areas, so it wouldn’t matter for OP #1. But I think having a single button unbuttoned is appropriate. Now if your shirt was unbuttoned down to your navel, that would be a different story and I’d feel the same way whether hairy-chested or not.

    8. Dust Bunny*

      It really depends on how many buttons “an extra button” is. If it’s one, the boss is being absurd. Two, maybe still OK? Three is going to be too informal for most office settings, chest hair or not.

      (I’m laughing in my head picturing an old friend of ours from church. Old-school blue-collar Philly Italian guy. Always dressed very neatly and then one day he showed up at a mutual friend’s wedding in gold chains and down three buttons. With chest hair. It was fine in context but definitely a side of him we didn’t see on Sundays.)

    9. Reluctant Mezzo*

      I would like to point out that chest hair seems to be ok for the President of France (why, yes, I did snag a picture of him like that for occasional admiration).

  16. TheOtherKaye*

    LW3 You have a wife problem, and broader trust issues within your marriage (at least, on your wife’s part).
    Talking with your wife, could you get her to visualise herself in a candidate’s position? How would she feel were she the absolutely best qualified candidate, and her potential boss hired a mediocre male candidate “because his spouse refused to entertain him hiring a female”? Would she be “ok, that’s understandable” or would she be complaining about sexism, favouritism and “jobs for the boys”? How does she react to you interacting with other, non-related, females?
    Hire the best candidate, and look into marriage counselling.

    1. Ganymede II*

      There’s a small but real minority of women who think women should just not work. And the venn diagram between those women and those who think any female employee might be out to seduce their husband is not quite a circle… but definitely a strong overlap.

      All this to say “what if this happened to you” might not appeal to the LW’s wife much.
      His legal obligations not to discriminate on gender should be all that matters here.

      1. Mutually supportive*

        And also, hiring a the best person for the role is likely to be most successful, so the company is more successful, so it makes more profit and better work life balance etc.

        Why wouldn’t you want the best!?

    2. ecnaseener*

      My guess is she would say “I wouldn’t want a job where I was the only employee, working for a man!” People don’t usually forget to consider other people’s perspectives altogether IME, they consider it and conclude that any reasonable person would feel as they feel.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      It’s quite possible, as others have said, that she would be “OK, that’s understandable.” There are people who genuinely feel it’s “inappropriate” for a married person to ever be alone with a member of the opposite sex and would think it perfectly fair to be turned down for such a job. She might even feel it would be inappropriate for her to take such a job.

      And the people who believe stuff like that often don’t believe sexism is a problem.

      On the other hand, she might be somebody who feels the rules only apply one way.

  17. English Rose*

    #3 – if you turn this around and make it a hypothetical husband telling his wife not to hire males, perhaps you can see how overbearing, troubling and controlling this is.

  18. Someone*

    Regarding LW1, I’m getting more sceptical about the words ‘professional’ and ‘unprofessional’. I know that Alison chose to use the word, not LW1 or LW1’s manager, but I now think that ‘professional’ and ‘unprofessional’ just means ‘thing someone else likes or does not like’.

    There are so many different meanings, interpretations, and standards that the words do not seem to have any meaning anymore. As LW1 said, the boss is an oddball.

  19. bamcheeks*

    LW3, hire the best candidate, look into counselling AND think seriously about how you are going to make sure that your wife’s feelings don’t impact your finalist’s experience at work.

    If your wife has any involvement in the business, attends any meetings, or will come into the workplace when your employee is there, make sure your new employee will be completely insulated from any weirdness or bad feeling she might bring. If there’s one thing worse than not being hired because someone’s wife doesn’t think her husband can work with women, it would be getting a job and then having your opportunities and ability to DO that job frustrated by your boss’s wife’s jealousy.

    If you can’t guarantee that, you are not in a position to run a business, and you should tailor your ambitions accordingly. .

    1. SchwaDeVivre*

      This is a point I hope Alison will add to her response. In a small business there is often this kind of overlap between personal and professional. So given the wife’s initial comments, taking steps to insulate the employee (and all your employees) is a really good idea.

  20. Coyote River*

    LW3: My wife, rest her soul, had this same concern the first time I hired a woman to work at my company. I asked how she would feel if she, or our daughter, were denied a job because of her gender. It took some time, but eventually she came to understand.

  21. PropJoe*

    #1 – for what it’s worth, there are commercially-available moisture wicking undershirts on the market. i’d previously been wearing regular cotton undershirts, but these are much more pleasant & comfortable (in my climate renowned for warmth & humidity). i got mine at a local big box warehouse club store, there may be other solutions available in your area or through online retailers.

    1. cindylouwho*

      Yes, my husband wears a lot of golf shirts from places like Underarmour and Dick’s sporting goods in the summer. They’re collared and professional, but also light and moisture wicking.

  22. Benjamin Button*

    In 2006 I was an intern at a startup. The founder / CEO would unbutton his shirt one extra button. Not enough to be a pirate or the cover of a romance novel, but enough so that I wondered about his sense of appropriateness (what might be called propriety, or decorum). When I see that look now, I still call it “doing the FounderName” in my head. He did not have much chest hair, but that didn’t make it look right, either. But not enough for me to criticize or for him to change

  23. L-squared*

    #1. This is interesting. I’m a guy, but I don’t have a hairy chest at all, so I’ve never dealt with this. And while the wording of “visible body hair is inappropriate” is a bit ridiculous, I kind of get it. I remember a job I worked once where a female coworker of mine would often wear sleeveless shirts (something guys weren’t allowed to). She was someone who didn’t shave her armpits. And while that is completely her choice, I will say seeing that DID seem unprofessional to me. I would’ve felt the same if this was a guy, which in honesty is why I think guys wearing tank tops often comes off different than a woman wearing a sleeveless shirt, because most guys have hairy armpits. So I do get that certain body hair does come off differently than arm hair. At the same time, I don’t know that if you are already hot and having to wear a collared shirt, concessions shouldn’t be made for that.

    #4. I really don’t know why this bothers you. This kind of seems like you just want to maintain a certain level of power imbalance. When its like “how dare you ask a question about a job without the right amount of deference”. You don’t like them saying “bother” to apply, but it makes sense. If they know they can’t do the hours, why would they bother? If you are posting on Facebook, why do comments bother you? People comment on LinkedIN posts all the time expressing interest. Now, they may follow up with a message too, but I see it all the time. Considering you are hiring for a part time desk job, and advertising it on facebook, you seem to be overly concerned with formality that you aren’t really showing.

    1. Not A Manager*

      I think intuitions about what’s appropriate or not are very interesting, especially when there’s a gender-based difference (which there often is, at least for unexamined intuitions).

      I’m curious – would you *really* find it less inappropriate for a man to wear a sleeveless shirt if he shaved his armpits? How would you react, viscerally, if a man were wearing a sleeveless shirt and it was obvious that he’d intentionally removed all of his armpit hair? Would it matter if he had/had not removed all of the other hair on his arms?

      1. L-squared*

        Would I react differently? I don’t know. I do think shaved armpits vs. non shaved just come across a bit differently in general, especially in a work contexts.

        I think what is different, in general, is there aren’t really many “work appropriate” sleeveless shirts for men. So the guy would be likely wearing a tank top or sleeveless t-shirt, whereas a woman may have a nicer sleeveless outfit. So I don’t think it is exactly a 1 to 1 comparison.

  24. Peanut Hamper*

    #2: If Jared is relatively new to the workforce, you’re not being rigid. You’re actually doing him a favor by helping him understand workplace norms. It seems to me that he is taking advantage of your kindness.

    My old boss would have already cut him loose. Late logins, long lunches, leaving early, all only two months in, and he’s struggling? Yeah, we would have cut our losses by then. (And yes, there is a reason he’s “old” boss. It was toxic.)

    As a manager, you should have expectations. But you also have to communicate those.

    1. HonorBox*

      I agree that setting specific expectations is not rigid. Jared is still in his probationary period (I assume) just 2 months in. If Jared is not doing his job well, plus he’s logging in late and leaving early, plus taking extended lunches, you owe him a very specific conversation with clear expectations. And if he’s not succeeding shortly – and by succeeding, I mean following those clear hours and at least improving somewhat – you need to move on.

  25. Irish Teacher.*

    LW4, do you really want applicants to save questions like that for the interview if they are deal-breakers? It strikes me that it would be a bit of a waste of your time, interviewing somebody only to find out that the job was not something they were willing to accept. And it would be a massive waste of their time and something that might cost them money. It really doesn’t make sense to me to suggest that your company should wait until the interview to tell people whether or not it makes sense for them to consider the job.

    LW3, this is going beyond what you are asking for advice for, but I honestly feel your wife’s request is something of a red flag. Obviously, I don’t know the details about your marriage and it may be that this is just a weird hang-up she has, but that kind of jealousy and lack of trust (she doesn’t even want you working with another woman!) can be a warning sign for abuse and/or control issues.

    Obviously, I can’t say if there is a real risk of these in your relationship, but just wanted to flag it in case this is symptomatic of a broader pattern.

    1. Learn ALL the things*

      Not to mention, some really good candidates probably won’t apply if they’re expected to hold their questions until the interview. I work full time and most businesses hold interviews during business hours, even if they’re open on evenings and weekends. So saving my questions for the interview means I’m going to meet to take at least a half day off from my current job before I even find out if this job opening could even work for me, and at that point I’d rather just not waste my time applying.

  26. Peanut Hamper*

    I guess if you don’t want comments about job listings on Facebook, then don’t post job listings on Facebook? But still, if the job posting has actual language like this in it:

    This is a desk shift with a rotating schedule, based on the weekend rotation and others’ availability

    I would definitely be asking questions if I were the least little bit interested, because that “depending on others’ availability” sounds like the potential to be a nightmare. This is a part-time job, so it’s obviously not going to pay all the bills, which means I would need another part-time job to make ends meet. People need some predictability about hours in order to make two part-time jobs work, and honestly, this description sounds extremely problematic.

  27. Gustavo*

    #3-Yikes!!! Yes it would be wildly illegal (not to mention unethical) to not hire a woman because they are a woman. Your wife clearly doesn’t trust you so as Allison noted, seek marriage counseling asap and hire the qualified candidate. If your wife was going to dictate the gender of your employees you probably shouldn’t open a business that requires hiring because that’s a HUGE issue.

    I’m hiring for my dept and I’m female, currently looking to hire a male candidate that is ideal does this position and I would be HORRIFIED if my husband were to have any opinions on that because I’m hiring a man. I hope you guys can work through that because she is absolutely wildly wrong to have this issue (unless you have a history of cheating with female employees, in which case the problem lies with you and you need to find a way to stop doing that and earn her trust back, still recommend counseling).

  28. Bill and Heather's Excellent Adventure*

    As someone equally blessed and cursed with a larger bosom, I feel for LW1 being judged for ‘exposing’ what is a perfectly normal body part. You could wear a vest/undershirt made of breathable material or trim just the top edge of your chest hair to see if it’s really the hair that bothers your boss.

    1. Lily Rowan*

      Yeah, I’m interested (don’t want to say “glad,” because we should all get over all of this!) to learn that there are things where different men are expected to dress differently because of qualities of their bodies. I am assuming that LW1 is not unbuttoning to the point that anyone would notice if he didn’t have a hairy chest.

      1. Roland*

        Dress code stuf that at least unofficially applies only to men is pretty common at work, I feel like. Shorts and toes are two things that come to mind as being way less socially acceptable on the whole for men in an office, vs a woman wearing something knee-length and/or sandals.

      2. LW1*

        Your assumption is correct! Mt default is just the collar button unbuttoned, but I (apparently scandalously) have unbutoned the second a few times.

    2. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      I suspect the boss has a strong association between chest hair (specifically) and sex. Maybe she finds chest hair really attractive! And then she saw LW’s chest hair and had a, let’s say, unprofessional reaction to it. And that all took her by surprise and she reacted without thinking it thru first.

  29. blah*

    For LW4, I’m gonna guess what really bothered LW’s coworkers is the second comment about needing to know the hours before “bothering to apply.” Depending on the full context of the comment, it could come across as kind of rude! However, I agree with other commenters that if you publish future job postings on Facebook to clarify what the expectations are for hours.

    1. L-squared*

      Why is that rude?

      the application takes a non zero amount of time. If they know that they won’t be able to do it based on the hours, why should they spend the time doing it?

      1. tabloidtained*

        They could simply say, “Before I apply,”…it’s the “bother” that comes across as rude. It’s not useful or relevant to the employer that people resent the amount of time it take to apply for jobs. What’s useful to the employer is the knowledge that they’ve missed including key information in their job posting.

    2. Learn ALL the things*

      I don’t know. I’ve gotten a lot more blunt about this in recent years.

      Applying for jobs is a lot of work. You have to tailor your resume to highlight the specific skills and achievements that are relevant for each job. Each job needs its own specific cover letter. If you get invited to an interview, you probably have to take time off from your existing job. And then there are the recruitment processes that require applicants to take a test or complete some kind of sample project. It’s a lot of work, and frankly, a lot of bother, and I find myself feeling pretty resentful of companies who don’t put enough information in their job postings for me to know whether or not this job is going to be worth all the effort they’re going to expect from me before I’m even going to be interviewed, and sometimes I want the company to know that they’re just wasting everyone’s time with their vague job posts.

      Is it a great way to get hired at that company? Probably not. But increasingly, I just don’t want to work for a company that does this, so I’m cool with making a blunt statement like this to let them know their job post is missing information and moving on with my day, because I’m not going to invest that much work for a company that’s not going to do the same.

  30. Dawn*

    #3: You say, “we don’t have set hours for it right now,” but you might have to at least give people some idea if you want to make a hire. I’m not going to waste my time applying if it might turn out the hours you’re expecting are 5-10 per week; I need to earn a living.

    If you don’t have any idea what hours the position will require, it’s time to get one.

  31. Evan88*

    OP1, the rule of buttoning is cruel and unflinching. N= the number of buttons on a shirt. For polos, N-2. Oxfords/dress shirts with no tie N-1. And always, always an undershirt. No one is looking for a Hasselhoff understudy.

    1. Kitry*

      This seems like a gendered double standard to me. Even fully unbuttoned, a polo shirt doesn’t show much more than a hands breadth below the collarbone. I often see women wearing shirts lower cut than that in the workplace and it’s fine.

  32. HonorBox*

    OP1 – I wonder if there’s a different style of shirt that might help you, heat-wise. There are some really nice button down shirts that offer better breathability now and they’re not too expensive. Could you get away with a polo shirt or a short-sleeved button down? It might be worth a conversation with your boss/HR to figure out what alternatives would be OK so you’re not forced to choose between too hot and showing off your chest hair.

    For the record, I’m not opposed to 2 buttons undone (I did it last week in fact), but it also depends on the shirt. Some shirts have more buttons so unbuttoning 2 isn’t as obvious, where some I’ve seen you’d be showing off your xyphoid process with 2 buttons undone.

  33. Having a Scrummy Week*

    LW 2

    Maybe Jared is bored. Does he have enough engaging work to do, or is he sitting around trying to find tasks to fill the day? Can you schedule your meetings with him towards the beginning/middle of the day to ensure that he has enough work to complete for the remainder of the day? If you check in the next day and he has completed all his work satisfactorily, I’d wager the tasks are too easy for him and he might be dying for a different challenge.

    I don’t disagree with the suggestion to formalize his schedule. That is a great start. But the leaving early and taking long lunches smells like boredom/disengagement to me. I’ve been that person!

    1. mango chiffon*

      It does sound like the Jared is not doing the tasks he is supposed to do properly, so I don’t know if “bored” is quite accurate. If his performance is not good as OP mentions, I don’t know if boredom quite makes sense. If his work was good and he was doing this, I think OP would have less to complain about

      1. Having a Scrummy Week*

        That is fair. Maybe he is just not in the right role for his skills and interests.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      I very much doubt that Jared is bored. If he were, he would log on at 7:00 and get right to work on whatever is going on.

      This is very much an example of “when the cat is away, the mice dance on the table.”

  34. STG*

    OP1: It’s a silly convention. Like others, the only thing I’d be concerned about is how far you unbuttoned. I’m a very hairy guy and don’t wear undershirts so my chest hair is a little visible along the top. It’s never been an issue for me personally and I’d push back if someone brought it up. We’ve gotta stop policing human bodies.

  35. Calamity Janine*

    i am perpetually thankful Alison does the answering and not me because i am pretty sure my ending advice to LW1 is “on the plus side, if you want to still unbutton an extra button, now is a fantastic time to get a bunch of t-shirts printed like Superman’s costume to use as undershirts. either chest hair is preferable, or you’ll be one motion of dramatically whipping off your eyeglasses and starting to rip off your shirt away from a Halloween costume”

  36. I'm A Little Teapot*

    LW 4 – businesses posting incomplete job posts on Facebook is a real pet peeve of me. When I see them, I will post asking the questions they failed to answer. Your post should include all of the following elements, no exceptions:

    1. job title
    2. very brief description of the job responsibilities (one sentence is fine)
    3. company name
    4. location
    5. pay rate/salary
    6. hours
    7. any other info that it is reasonable for someone to need to know when deciding if they want to apply. Paid training, travel, etc.

    Since you say its a rotating schedule, then you need to specifically say that on the post.

  37. Dandylions*

    #4 TBH your posting sounds like you are trying to hide a nasty schedule. Can you truly not provide a schedule? What will you tell a new hire on day one? That should be what you put into a job add.

    By not including this you will be eliminating parents, students, and many other qualified workers from considering you.

    Even when I was childless and relatively responsibility free in my 20’s I would have passed on this add with no set schedule.

  38. Parenthesis Guy*

    LW #2: You mention that he’s struggling, but you don’t mention whether he has enough work to keep him busy. Just because he’s struggling doesn’t mean he has enough to do. He may have a minimal amount of work and also be doing a poor job with the work he does have. You want to make sure that he has plenty of work that he can do, so he knows what he should be working on. If he still leaves early, then it’s on him.

    Aside from that, I think the key fact in this situation is that you don’t have the power to fire him and that your boss isn’t active. If Jared’s doing poor work and not trying very hard, then there’s a limit to how much time you want to spend helping him. At some point you may decide that it’s easier to just let him “work” twenty hours a week instead of making him work forty hours a week and forcing you to devote time to working with him.

    If it gets to that point, you want to be on the record saying that he needs to make sure that he’s working forty hours a week. However, you also don’t want him to actually work forty hours a week. If you can go to your boss and tell them that your worker is not meeting requirements and is only working twenty hours a week, then that makes it easier to make a case to fire this guy. And if you still can’t fire him despite bad performance then there’s not much you can do incentivize this guy to improve. Which means your best bet is to spend as little of your time working with him as possible.

  39. Nonanon*

    LW 4: Do you have a contact email or something similar on your Facebook post? There are a few small businesses in my general area who will post job openings on social media channels, and they clarify that questions should go to a specific email vs. on the post itself. They do still get comments on the post (it’s a large media platform with a large audience, reading comprehension varies), but the only responses are “contact email for more information” (no idea if it’s a human or they rigged it to autoreply).

    IMO, “hours are flexible and we can accommodate your schedule” is a reasonable thing to include in the job listing (eg a college student could expect an hour or so to attend their only class of the day as long as you could accomidate it) and I think your coworkers are being unnecessarily nitpicky (social media is an intrinsically casual platform).

    1. KateM*

      I can imagine how offputting it would be to see a job ad where people as for sensible things like hours or salary and only public answers are “contact email for more information”! Obviously, they are keeping this information secret for a reason. Right?

      1. Armchair Analyst*

        I have seen “job ads” that are, in essence, “if you want to make great money from home, contact me!”
        I think I did that 3 or 4 times before realizing they were all MLMs or gig or entry-level or … if they’re not being upfront in public, they’re not going to be any more forthcoming or polite about it in private.

  40. Dandylions*

    #1 Chest hair is one of those things that some people have strong feelings about. It sucks, and it definitely impacts some nationalities more then others. My husband is Italian and Ashkenazi and the men in his family are super hairy. The nuns at his Catholic college use to punish him even if he was wearing a T shirt because some hair would still show – SMH.

    Your boss has signaled he is weird about chest hair sadly. For heat, I recommend finding a muslin or other breathable fabric for an undershirt that way you can get some air flow.

    1. Cinnamon Stick*

      If in the US, I would recommend Uniqlo’s Airism line of underthings. If you can catch them on sale, they’re reasonably priced and they are moisture wicking.

      Top one or two buttons on an oxford-style dress shirt doesn’t seem unreasonable to me, but I’m not LW’s boss. A polo that’s not buttoned at all shows more and that’s usually how I see the techies at work wear them.

    2. anon4ny*

      The boss was a woman for OP#1.

      I feel like, especially for Gen X and later women, chest hair is sexual to them because of Burt Reynolds/Harrison Ford and this weird 80’s *sexy guy* aesthetic that still lingers in the minds, equating showing chest hair with cleavage. Her being okay with male smooth chests shows she views that in a sterile way for men.

      I don’t know if there’s a real solution, breathable fabric won’t hide hair and an additional undershirt does not always hide hair. I would personally roll up my sleeves, grow a long beard, long mane, anything to push this because it’s an inherently unfair rule (you cannot help how much hair you are born with, period!).

      1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

        I don’t see a mention of anything about his boss other than that she’s a woman and an “oddball.” I guess I could’ve missed something about her age, but if not — why make this generational? This is a massive generalization and introduces factors that may or may not be in play, based on the original letter.

        1. Anon4ny*

          She literally told him he could shave his chest and that would be fine.

          I guess it’s possible she’s a young woman new to the working world whose finds chest hair showing on men “inappropriate” at work but I would assumed she’s been conditioned this way by older people…I don’t find young millennial/gen x managers policing their subordinates body hair by making up wild claims about appropriate work place attire – this kind of overemphasis on optics is a order generational thing (hence the formation and rise of business casual, etc.)

      2. prob not relevant*

        This is not relevant, but Gen X? Burt Reynolds?

        Separately, my baby boomer husband used to tell a story of the times he went out with his friends who had hairier chests. They would unbutton an extra button on their shirts and fluff up their chest hair. The intent was to attract women; not sure if it worked. My husband, who was not very hairy, thought it was funny.

      3. nnn*

        this weird 80’s *sexy guy* aesthetic that still lingers in the minds

        An interesting thing about being an xennial is I was exposed to the 80s “sexy guy” aesthetic back when I was young enough that all things sexual were repulsive to me (and, like most people, the number of times I was exposed to grown men behaving towards me in ways that had sexual connotations was not zero.) By the time sexuality was something I was interested in, chest hair wasn’t something people did to perform sexuality.

        So the result is it has this highly specific “gross old man trying to be sexy” vibe that I don’t think it had for other generations.

        (This isn’t meant to be commentary on what the dress code should be, just the vibe)

  41. Insert Pun Here*

    I occasionally post links to my org’s open jobs on social media (though not Facebook, and in an “FYI” sort of way rather than as an official representative of the org), and I would be put off by such a brusque response. When folks have questions they do tend to be a bit more polite. BUT these are typically professional roles (some entry level, some not) that are VERY heavy on communications skills, so it makes sense that potential applicants would want to showcase their abilities in that area. For a part time role you might be expecting too much.

  42. I Can't Even*

    I think the comment on the FB add is a reflection of how tired people are by the job market and employers not being transparent about hours and pay and less about wanting to apply for your particular part time job.

    1. Pizza Rat*

      The lack of information in the ad is yet another example of just how dehumanizing the job hunting process has become over the last few years. It’s never been fun, but many employers hoard information, and frequently use bait & switch tactics. I see a huge potential for bait & switch tactics here.

      There is nothing wrong with someone asking for more information when it’s missing from the job ad. It’s the employer’s burden to determine the schedule, that shouldn’t be on the candidate.

  43. JSN*

    LW3, please take Alison’s advice and seek marriage counseling to find out why your wife feels that way. Too many people avoid counseling because they think it means their marriage is in trouble. But it’s actually to prevent the problems from escalating and causing irreversible damage to the marriage. But also, do some self reflection and think about if you ever did anything to make her feel this way (cheating?). If so, you have to work on yourself and get her trust back by also attending your own personal counseling without her.

    I’ve been passed on jobs simply because I’m a woman, and it’s messed up. I was perfectly able to do the job, but it was a physical job (building evacuation slides for airplanes) and the men didn’t think I would be able to do it. Of course this is different from your situation, but I want to show that your decision not to hire this woman only because of her gender is really messed up. And illegal. Do the right thing and hire the best candidate for your business, regardless of gender.

    And also make sure this employee will not be on the receiving end of any rudeness or poor treatment from your wife.

  44. i drink too much coffee*

    Hi, I run multiple social media accounts for my job :) if you post about something, you can’t be mad to get questions about it. SHOULD people be more professional, especially given that it’s so public… sure. But as Alison said, social media is a whole other world. I wouldn’t think twice if I posted job openings and someone asked questions about it before applying — I’d just find out the answer and reply to the comment so others can also see it. I actually prefer comment conversations to messages a lot of the time because I can answer things that many other people would want to know where everyone can see it!

    The person who asked before they “bothered” to apply wasn’t very smart, because they should know this is the first impression they’re giving to this application should they apply. But that’s on them, not you. Answer any valid questions, ignore trolls, move on :)

    P.S. At least in my case, if I do get rude people in comments who I have reason to believe did apply to the job I may have posted about… yup, I’m screenshotting it and sending it to whoever asked me to post the job. That’s valuable information about a potential candidate. Just throwing that out there as well!

    1. I strive to Excel*

      That’s true! It’s the online equivalent to “were they polite to the receptionist”.

  45. DivergentStitches*

    IMO it could be beneficial to go back to the old supe and explain that it was a medical issue, mainly because it reinforces that how he handled it was good, so if he has an employee with a similar issue in the future, he would be more likely to handle it kindly and give the employee grace. Sort of a “rewarding good behavior” in support of possible future employees.

    I did poorly in a job before I was diagnosed as autistic, and I did email my old supe and his boss to thank them for the opportunity and tell them about my diagnosis, not to “explain” my behavior but to show them that I took their concerns seriously and sought medical attention, didn’t just blow them off.

  46. DivergentStitches*

    Many people, of all professional levels, have struggled trying to find work in this economy. It can be extremely frustrating to find a job posting and go through all of the rigamarole to apply, only to find that the salary, hours, or hybrid/remote requirements don’t work. Everything should be in the ad so that, yes, people can decide whether to bother applying! I can 100% see why someone would phrase it that way.

    Hiring is a two-way street, and people interview the company as much as the other way around. Be up front in your advertising.

    1. Bookworm*

      I know companies which are very upfront in their advertising and are getting people who only want remote work for jobs that are clearly posted as in office only. A friend runs a small insurance office and needs someone to be in the office because they still have a lot of customers coming in person. The posting says this. Friend is constantly getting people who only want to work remote. Another friend is trying to hire a front desk/receptionist person for a medical office. Same thing, applicants wanting remote only for a job that requires in-person contact with the public.

      1. Annie*

        I wonder how much of this stems from mistaken ideas of what “netorking” is, i.e. applicants who think they can magic themselves into an “undocumented” opening by asking for something that sounds related to the actual opening, and how much of this is another way of asking, “What other openings do you have?

        Context:

        Mistaken (plus or minus a nugget of truth) understanding of how networking gets you a job: Small set of openings made public because the company has to. Larger set of openings reserved for people in the inner circle of the owner/recruiter/other entity you can network your way into if only you knew how.

        How networking actually gets you a job: Being a known quantity via some kind of shared history with someone associated with the company or industry can get you first dibs at an opening before it is made public or even an edge during the selection process. The opening is still likely to be made public to ensure their isn’t an even better candidate available at a given point in time. Less common are scenarios along the lines of, “I guess we could use a llama groomer around here. You’re hired!”

      2. DivergentStitches*

        Well, sure, can’t hurt to ask. She can always just say “no, it’s in office only.”

        She could always put something in the ad like, “This is an in office position and remote inquiries will not be responded to.”

        1. Bookworm*

          Asking about remote work on a job posting where it doesn’t specify is fine, but on a job where posting mentions you have to be face to face with the public? It makes no sense to me.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      OK, but the OP replied in another comment that the Facebook post directs people to the HR website that has more details. I don’t think it’s wrong of people to comment on the post but they could at least follow the directions to see. The ad is not going to be as detailed as the HR posting. If the posting doesn’t have that information then I can see peoples annoyance.

  47. Very Anon for This*

    OK, so I am one of those people who thinks neither chest nor arm hair is not appropriate in an office. So I always wear long sleeves, and my tie forces me to close my neck button. However, I do not require this of my employees since my employer does not have a dress code rule covering this, and I will not make up my own and impose it on others.

    LW1 may have a valid formal complaint if their boss has implemented a policy different from other university employees. But the policy that states “neat and well-kempt” is subjective and should be better-written.

  48. Ginger Cat Lady*

    OP4- as someone hiring, you need to understand a few things:
    1. “Part time” can mean anything from a few hours a week (I have a part time job teaching a class one night a week, so about 3-4 hours/week) to 30 hours a week. Applicants will need to know what “part time” means for this job. And if it’s going to be wildly variable, good luck finding someone. People need a steady income, not 4 hours one week and 30 the next.
    2. People who work part time are often doing it because they have something else they’re working around. School, another job (because companies try to save by not hiring full time and people have to work multiple jobs to survive), a partner’s schedule, etc. Again, knowing the hours is important to a job applicant.
    3. Rotating and ever changing schedules make it hard or impossible to arrange for childcare or work around those other commitments. Expecting what amounts to full-time availability for part time work isn’t all that reasonable. Consider a steady schedule if you want good applicants.
    “What are the hours” is a perfectly reasonable question, and isn’t rude AT ALL. You should have included that info in the post. Please tell me you answered that question visibly on Facebook, and didn’t pull the “I’ll DM you” answer I see so often on FB or LI job posts. Just be honest and up front about pay, hours, etc in job listings. People are sick of companies playing games and acting like people are wrong for wanting more information before applying. (Especially given the ridiculous hiring processes, like video interviews and sample projects, that companies expect these days.)

  49. Bookworm*

    Letter #2 –

    I think the kindest thing I can say is perhaps the employee is so new to the workforce (perhaps after college), that he isn’t aware of workplace norms.

    Of course, he could just be slacking off and determines this is the best way to do things.

  50. Hyaline*

    I may be in the minority, but hear me out–I think visible chest hair has some parallels to visible cleavage in that 1) the exact same outfit can “reveal” something on one person and nothing on another and it’s absolutely no one’s fault, 2) reasonably professional clothing can still fall in a gap where it can show chest hair or cleavage depending on the person and 3) like or not, both have connotations with sexual attractiveness and allure (see: many older action movies and romance book covers) even though 4) it may not be intended by the wearer that way AT ALL. In some circumstances, it is advisable to be extra-cautious about stuff that maybe shouldn’t matter but sometimes does when it comes to “revealing” clothing, and education at any level including university is one of those places. Long story short, I’d button up or wear an undershirt, LW1. The last thing you want is any suggestion to students that you’re dressing “sexy” given the power imbalances present in a classroom, and I do think chest hair pushes that line.

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I agree with your statement, and I wish we knew how much hair and how far he is unbuttoning his shirt. If it’s just he first button or two then that would be ok, even if a little hair is showing. It’s one of those things like sometimes women have to wear a camisole under their shirts because it may be too revealing. It kind of suck but it is what it is.

      I would like to point out that the OP is not in the classroom. He stated he is an admin. Usually this means admin assistant or other administrative professional (academic admin assistants for the entire department, executive assistant to the president, etc.). He would not be in the classroom so there would not be a power dynamic and would not have to worry about “dressing sexy.” Many admins have little to no contact with students. At my first role the only time I would see a student was when they were looking for a classroom or a certain professors room.

      1. Hyaline*

        This is true about the role–but many people with “admin” roles do have a lot of contact with students. Sorry for the unclear colloquialism of “in the classroom,” but I’d maintain the same line for an advising professional, accessibility specialist, etc.

        As someone who has always had to wear camisoles or show way more than I want to–you’re totally right on that!

    2. Hroethvitnir*

      I agree they’re remarkably analogous, but that primarily informs being very unimpressed by having your boss comment on your body in a potentially sexualised way due to something natural about your body.

      The LW has confirmed it’s a whole two buttons on a dress shirt, and while he may choose to change something to avoid harassment, I don’t think he should have to.

    3. LW1*

      I am really uncomfortable with the suggestion that my fully clothed body existing in its natural state contributes to a sexualized enviornment.

  51. CubeFarmer*

    LW#2: I have learned a lot from an older friend who is very near retirement and has run her own business for decades. She’s direct about what her expectations are and when something needs to change. She isn’t nasty about it, but she also doesn’t sugar coat it. She doesn’t care about your excuses (which, honestly, sometimes I would appreciate an acknowledgement of initiative or effort, “I understand why you thought that/tried that/didn’t know that, but this thing needs to by XYZ,” but nobody’s perfect.) I learned a lot about professional communication from her.

  52. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

    OP4: It sounds like the people asking about the job on Facebook are matching the style of your ad, though. You’re not wasting limited wordcount on “Hello, $location job-seekers” or “we would like to hire people for part-time roles” instead of “we are hiring X” or “help wanted, part-time XYZ.”

    Also, the more information you can provide up front, the better. “19 hours/week, consistent hours” is better than a vague “hours will be based on other people’s schedules” and doesn’t take a lot of room in the ad.

  53. Just Thinkin' Here*

    OP #4 – If you don’t want public posted comments, don’t post your job opening on Facebook. The point of Facebook *is* to make comments and interact with the posts.

  54. H.C.*

    #1 – the malicious compliance in me would be tempted to wear gloves all the time (the tackier the better) to go with the letter of that ridiculous decree.

  55. Tesuji*

    LW#3:

    Sorry for being pedantic, but if you’re going to give legal advice, it feels important to note what the law actually is, even if you find it repugnant.

    We know that in Iowa, for example, it is completely legal to fire a female employee if your pastor tells you that she might be a threat to your marriage. (Nelson v. Knight, No. 11–1857, Iowa Supreme Court, 2013).

    Given the state of jurisprudence in red states, I would at best call the law in places like Texas and Florida “unsettled” as to whether they’d rule the same way. I mean, if I were representing someone in a southern state, and had a client with a fact pattern like this, I think it would probably be malpractice *not* to warn them up-front that the court could rule that the boss did nothing wrong.

    I’d agree that this is *wrong* and that this couple needs marriage counseling, but relying on “point out to your wife that it’s illegal” feels like potentially setting this guy up to fail, if they’re the kind of couple for whom ‘marriage counseling’ means ‘talk to their pastor’ and he discovers that not hiring someone to appease his wife is completely a-okay in their state.

    1. nnn*

      Sorry for being pedantic in return, but in the case you cited, the court noted that the issue wasn’t one of hiring women, but of continuing to employ this one specific woman. I’m not defending the ruling but it does not say it’s OK to decide not to hire women across the board. In fact, the court wrote “What if Dr. Knight had fired several female employees because he was concerned about being attracted to them? Or what if Ms. Knight demanded out of jealousy that her spouse terminate the employment of several women? The short answer is that those would be different cases. If an employer repeatedly took adverse employment actions against persons of a particular gender because of alleged personal relationship issues, it might well be possible to infer that gender and not the relationship was a motivating factor.”

    2. Forrest Rhodes*

      Wow—I’m astonished that the Nelson v. Knight decision came down in 2013. That’s the 21st century, for gosh sakes.

      I am nowhere near Iowa, have long since taken Texas and Florida off my “places I’d like to go” list, and am unlikely to ever be in a position to hire anyone, but thanks, Tesuji. I appreciate the information.

    3. Forrest Rhodes*

      Okay, just read nnn’s’ response, and now I do recall the case. But I’m still in “wow” territory.

    4. Observer*

      We know that in Iowa, for example, it is completely legal to fire a female employee if your pastor tells you that she might be a threat to your marriage.

      Except that this is interstate, which means that Federal law applies here. So, the precedents you cite are not relevant.

  56. Delta Delta*

    #4 – Here’s my reaction. The comment asking what the hours are is entirely reasonable. If a person can’t do the hours listed, they won’t apply. Easy peasy. The message that basically said they needed to know the hours before they’d “bother” to apply is a little grating. The use of the word “bother” seems off-putting in this context. It makes it seem as if the potential applicant is somehow bowing down to the company to grace the company with their presence by “bothering” to respond. It just doesn’t come across well. The substance of the inquiry, though, feels very fair.

  57. NotARealManager*

    #1 – I think chest hair feels intimate in a way that arm hair (or leg hair) doesn’t. While “no body hair can be visible” is a silly way to phrase what she meant, because mammals have hair pretty much everywhere, saying “chest hair is not appropriate for this work environment” is reasonable.

    FWIW, I am a large-chested lady and always have to ensure my neckline isn’t showing more than I mean to.

    1. Salty Caramel*

      I disagree that it’s reasonable. Just like nobody should be staring at someone’s cleavage, nobody should be staring at someone’s chest hair. The intimacy is in the mind of the beholder. If someone is having sensual thoughts when they see chest hair, then they should work on that. Nobody grows their chest hair AT their coworkers to tempt them into sin.

  58. Lily Potter*

    My guess is that Jared is relatively new to the work world, and is still in the mindset of college – “As soon as I’ve checked off the minimum requirements of the tasks assigned to me, I’ve done my job!” You can’t apply that same thinking to the workplace. Jared is loafing off because he can get away with it. There are plenty of things he could be doing in that first hour of the day. If he doesn’t have enough productive work at hand, he could be spending that first hour of the morning reviewing/proofing his work from the day prior (since it sounds like he’s making some errors) OR spending time around the coffeepot chatting with his new co-workers (relationship building at work is a good thing) OR reading trade journals OR doing on-line training OR any number of other things that people do when they’re not under a supervisor’s active eye and furiously cranking out work.

    Jared can’t be trusted to work independently at this point. He needs to work the same hours as LW2, pronto. The only way I can think of for Jared to keep the earlier schedule is for LW2 to check in with him before he leaves each night, and give him a new assignment to do the next morning……and then LW2 needs to follow up and see what he’s actually done. That’s a lot of Mickey Mousing around for everyone involved, but it would reveal exactly how Jared is spending his mornings.

  59. Ess Ess*

    I agree that a couple chest hairs sticking out of the top is not inappropriate, but a display of chest hairs is very inappropriate in a professional office. I worked at an office that had a 20-something employee that constantly wore a shirt that was unbuttoned to his naval (not exaggerating, it was literally only buttoned with one button at the waistline) and pulled open so that his entire chest hair was on display. I kept my mouth shut since I didn’t work directly with him but I wanted to yell at him that this is a professional office, not a male model photo shoot.

      1. Ess Ess*

        No, displaying a bare chest all the way down to the naval is inappropriate no matter how hairy, but the hair made it even more obvious rather than a quick glance looking like a flesh-colored undershirt.

  60. Lily Potter*

    LW4 -if you want decent candidates for your part-time job, you really have to give more details than you have here. Saying “you could be scheduled to work just about any time during the week and sometimes on Saturday” is not going to be appealing to the “best and the brightest” out there. Those candidates are going to gravitate to jobs where the scheduling expectations are made more clear. Also, it’s super important to indicate your definition of “part-time” – ten hours a week? Twenty? Thirty? – and whether the hours per week are consistent throughout the year.

    I have a professional, part-time job that took a long time to land, in part because I wasn’t willing to work at a place without a consistent schedule (roughly the same number of hours a week) or at a place where I had to work nights or weekends (full-timers in my field often do have after hours work). The only online postings I considered were those that addressed at least some of these concerns, and gave me a way to ask about the others. I would never, ever have responded to a vague posting without having my questions answered first.

    1. Annie*

      In this specific case, the NUMBER of hours expected was well-addressed in the ad, but the apparent availability requirements gave a few would-be applicants pause.

      Also, there was a separate gripe about people not treating the social media comments section like a business email by buttressing questions with “hello”, “please” and/or “thank you”.

  61. Moose*

    Oh I am bristling at “body hair is unprofessional.” That would be an inappropriate thing to say to a woman with leg or armpit hair and it’s inappropriate to say to a man. If you have an appropriate number of buttons unbuttoned without body hair then you have an appropriate number of button unbuttoned with body hair.

    We have got to stop body-policing as a society. It’s fine to have standards around behavior (for example, the number of buttons allowed to be unbuttoned) but body policing is gross and never appropriate.

  62. ijustworkhere*

    You need to know what hours you need someone and advertise those. It’s not OK to expect someone to have full time availability for part time work. A lot of people are putting together multiple part time jobs to be able to pay their bills. They need to know what you expect.

  63. Skytext*

    RE: L1 – Am I the only person who had a flashback to Beverly Hills Cop? Where Bronson Pinchot as Serge berated an underling for showing some chest hair, calling it “animal” and “not sexy” (but in that accent) lol?

  64. Head Sheep Counter*

    I am so uncomfortable with any justification of asking someone to not have the body they have. eg cover, hide, modify etc.

    Clearly we (in general) need to clothe ourselves appropriate to our environment (and professional norms) but… can we not justify, sexualize or request modifications to someone else based on our own discomfort? People have bodies and their genetics determine the configuration of said bodies.

  65. Aglet*

    OP3, I did a search, and federally it is not illegal to discriminate based on sex (just to pay unequally based on gender) unless you have 15+ employees. The number may be lower under your state or local laws. I can understand why. If I’m hiring someone to provide personal care, I don’t want to hire a man. I had a bra fitting at a mall store the other day. I noticed that all the employees were women and thought about how I would not have done the bra fitting if the employee ready to fit me were male. I know not all women feel this way. I just think that you should be aware that it’s most likely not illegal to choose your one employee based on gender.

  66. hello*

    lol, the boss from #1 would hate me…I’ve got chest hair growing up all the way to my neck, so even with everything buttoned it sometimes still shows through.

  67. Mgguy*

    Re: LW1-

    I’m a pretty hairy guy on the whoel, and also have worked in academia all of my working life(although never in administration). I’m currently faculty in the midwest.

    My work dress has always been more on the formal side-usually at least a coat and tie if not suit the first week, and regular every day tends to be long sleeve button downs and dress pants. I will go to short sleeve button downs in hot weather. “Dressing down” on a non-teaching day might be a short sleeve button down and jeans, or maybe a polo.

    At least my dad taught me(growing up in the south, where things to tend to be a bit more formal…everywhere) that you don’t button the top button of a collared shirt unless you’re wearing a tie(and then top button is mandatory). I’ve also never worn a tie with polo shirts. As a little side note on that, I was in a small group meeting yesterday with our college president, and it was bugging me immensely that he was wearing a suit and tie with his top button unbuttoned, but of course I’d never say anything about it.

    To add to that, I wear V-neck undershirts, partially because they don’t show with a top button undone, and partially I’ve worn them so long that standard necks just feel weird to me and almost choking/suffocating in a weird way. I do omit the undershirt with a polo shirt when it’s hot, but can’t bring myself to wear a button-up without one.

    I say all that to say that for all but maybe a half dozen days a year, no matter the time of year, I have at least some chest hair showing. My hair comes up basically to the base of my neck, and if I’m wearing a looser collar(which is one of the small things that can make a tie more tolerable in hot weather) you’ll probably even see it if you’re looking for it.

    I’ve literally NEVER had anyone say anything to me about it, other than my wife not liking me taking the dog out or going out to get the mail with nothing on over my V-neck undershirt. Needless to say, that’s never a way I’d dress at work. She gave up on that battle a long time ago, especially in the summer :) .

  68. Sparrow*

    LW #3, is this behavior typical of your wife? Has she gotten upset with you in the past when you’ve worked with female colleagues/coworkers? Does she try to stop you from hanging out with female friends, and try to make you feel like you’re doing something wrong by trying to? Is she controlling in other aspects of your life?

    If so, I want to make sure you know that none of that behavior is okay. I’m not going to say that your wife is abusive, because there’s just not enough information here for me to make that call. But—as someone who’s had a lot of male friends who didn’t realize their female partners were abusing them because they had internalized this idea that wives can’t abuse their husbands—I just wanted to make sure you know that if any of that sounds familiar to you, that’s not okay and you don’t deserve a partner who treats you like that. While marriage counselling may be a good idea, it may also be good for you to get individual therapy so that you have a chance to talk about issues you’re having with your wife without her sitting next to you.

  69. tiny potato*

    I’ve never understood why the default approach to someone falling asleep at work — or anywhere else one shouldn’t fall asleep — is not to address it as a possible disability, with all the forbearance and, frankly, awareness of corporate liability and human rights laws that that entails. I used to suffer from excess daytime sleepiness that was never definitively diagnosed, although antidepressants have helped, and it was humiliating how I was treated over something that was not under my control: as if I was intentionally making myself fall asleep (how?!) in order to show contempt for others (why?! why would I want to put myself through this?!) If it were a matter of “making sure I got enough sleep to avoid this,” and if that were simple to do, the issue would never have arisen in the first place. And if someone had demanded a diagnosis to avoid punishment, I would simply not have had that to give them–not every symptom is capable of giving rise to a diagnosis, despite being real! I internalized a lot of this shame and only got over that when I literally fell asleep standing up _while riding an escalator_.

    I really hope people faced with an employee falling asleep at work (or similar) will consider the likelihood that this is a matter of any one of the numerous conditions that can cause excess daytime sleepiness, and treat it by default as they would treat an employee who was manifesting signs of any other illness while at work, rather than starting from the unkind and dangerous assumption that it must be based in insouciance and contempt.

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