is it bad to request the top of the salary range?

by Alison Green on August 13, 2024

A reader writes:

I am interviewing for a job at a different company. It would be a lateral move, but worth it to me given that the new company is more stable and has greater opportunity for advancement. This is a salaried professional position. I think I am well qualified for it, perhaps a little overqualified, and though the interview process isn’t done, it seems to be going well.

I was discussing this interview with my rather old-school corporate father (boomer generation). I mentioned that since I currently made $100,000, and the job listing for the new position quoted a range with a max of $110,000, I planned to ask for $110,000. I justified this in my mind because the new job would require substantial travel, and my current position is underpaid relative to market. I had not yet decided what was the lowest I’d go, but I wanted to open with $110,000.

He pushed back. He said it was a bad idea to try to be at the top of the salary range because 1) you would not get as large future increases and 2) your head would be first on the chopping block if layoffs came. I said, I assumed at some point someone would ask me to state a number to open negotiations. He said I should politely refuse to give a number and instead emphasize that I wanted a “meaningful increase over my current compensation” when salary, bonus, benefits, etc., are all considered.

It makes sense to me to consider all forms of compensation together instead of fixating on a single aspect (salary). However, the rest of his argument doesn’t make much sense to me. If people who start more towards the middle of the range get larger raises to bring them up to the top of the range over time, they’re still worse off at the end than someone who was at the top of the range to begin with, right? Also, I feel it would be really annoying to try to negotiate with someone who says they want a “meaningful increase” but won’t tell you what they consider “meaningful.” As for being higher on the range opening you to layoffs, well, I’m not sure what to do about that, given that in general most people’s goals are to try to make more money rather than less, and I guess I’ll just have to prove I’m worth the cost.

What do you think? Does he have a point?

He does not. You should ignore his advice on this.

You’re of course right on the math: even if you get lower raises in future years because you started at the high end of the range, you’re still better off than someone who started at a lower number and then got raises to bring them into the high end of the range over time.

Plus, it’s not even necessarily the case that the salary range advertised is the full range for the job; in many cases it’s the range for the starting salary, not the full band for the position itself.

As for the advice to refuse to name a number and instead just say you’re looking for a “meaning increase,” I can tell you that as an interviewer, it’s incredibly annoying when people won’t talk in real numbers. It comes across as game-playing and it doesn’t make you look like you’re in a position of strength.

Moreover — and very significantly — your dad’s advice to reference “a meaningful increase over my current compensation” anchors the new job’s salary to whatever you’re making currently, which is none of the new employer’s business, and is especially to your disadvantage when you’re already underpaid. You don’t need to name your current salary at all.

As for the worry that negotiating for a higher salary means you’ll be the most attractive employee to lay off if they need to make cuts … it’s possible, but it’s not a reason not to try to negotiate for the best salary you can get yourself! They’re not going to agree to pay you more than they think the job is worth, and you shouldn’t artificially depress your own wages out of a fear that some day your employer might change their mind and decide you’re too expensive. By that logic, we should all ask for less than we think the work is worth, which makes no sense.

There are times when you shouldn’t ask for the top of the salary range, like when you’re clearly under-qualified and the role would be a stretch and so asking for the top of the range would make you look out-of-touch and like you don’t understand how salaries work — but that’s not your situation.

You may ignore your dad with impunity.

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{ 138 comments }

{ 138 comments… read them below }

  1. wonderball*

    I left $10K on the table for not asking for the top on the posted salary range, and I still kick myself for it.

    Ask! If there’s pushback, fine. But you owe it to yourself to ask.

    1. Artemesia*

      And you lose that 10K every dang year you work there AND as a basis for percentage increases.

  2. IAmUnanimousInThat*

    I think this may depend rather heavily upon the industry, seniority and the specific job. If the role is a very in-demand role (think AI-related or cybersecurity), the “top of the range” isn’t even really the top of the range.

    If the role is a “commodity job”, then asking for the top of the range is probably unwise, as there will be multiple other candidates similarly qualified coming in lower. In many of these rolrs, the company doesn’t need “the best”. They need “good enough”. And “good enough” is almost always available at lower than top-of-range.

    If they *do* need “the best” or the role is very senior where the decisions you will make will have the potential to cost or benefit the company disproportionately? Then if you really are ta “best” candidate? You absolutely should start at the top of the range.

    1. Sloanicota*

      But to be fair, OP is already earning $100K and shouldn’t take their job if s/he’s better off where s/he is. They can decide to hire a midrange person and pay less, and OP can decide to keep looking for a better offer.

    2. Claire*

      But typically you negotiate the salary after they’ve made you an offer. An employer is not going to make multiple offers and then go with whoever declines to negotiate.

      1. ecnaseener*

        And even if they do — LW’s goal isn’t to get this job at all costs. If the company isn’t going to pay what LW wants, then LW doesn’t want the job.

    3. bamcheeks*

      In many of these rolrs, the company doesn’t need “the best”. They need “good enough”.

      I mean— you may not need the absolute best HR advisor in the world. But most people would prefer to hire the best person in their interview pool.

      1. allathian*

        Not necessarily. Some would prefer to hire the best person they can get for a slightly lower salary rather than the absolute rockstar who knows their value. Some employers know that because they can’t/won’t offer competitive salaries, they’re very unlikely to get the best of the best. And that’s fine, average employees need jobs too, not just rockstars.

        This isn’t a reason for not negotiating salary when you’re in a position to do so, though!

  3. Person from the Resume*

    So true. I was talking to an acquaintance this weekend who described how she asked for a raise by talking about the cost of her rent and the new car note and increased car insurance, and I just cringed.

    It did not go well for her. And she may be losing out and underpaid because she is a woman near retirement, but that’s not how you justify a raise. You pay should be tied to work you do, market value of the work you do, and not how much your lifestyle costs or what you earned in your last job.

    She also just resignedly said she’d stick it out for 5-6 more years because it’s so hard for a woman her age to find a new job. I did feel for her, but thanks to AAM, I knew her arguments were not the ones to make when requesting a raise.

    1. minty*

      Oof. I know there are some people who advocate for cost-of-living raises, as opposed to merit raises, but I believe that’s usually advocated for as a team. Maybe your colleague had read that cost of living raises were a Thing and decided to go for it. Not excusing it though.

    2. Sloanicota*

      To be fair, over the past several years I keep hearing “prices are going up because of the increased cost of labor/gas/supply chain etc etc.” No pretense of better quality or whatever. It does feel hard not to be able to use that same logic when it’s your turn! But COLA adjustments aren’t generally made on an individual basis (nor have I found them to be negotiable).

      1. Pizza Rat*

        I’ve never seen them negotiable. From what I’ve seen, they are often close to the increase in the Consumer Price Index, but not always.

      2. le sigh*

        Even if you did argue it on an individual basis, I think the argument would be more along the lines of “inflation has been X percent, and I’m aiming for COLA increase that keeps my salary in line with that.” In that case you’re citing data rather than listing out your own individual costs.

    3. duinath*

      Let us all take a moment to remember the boss who wanted to go over the LW’s personal budget to figure out how they were wasting their money, because their paycheck was more than enough, in the boss’ eyes.

      Also, no offense to anyone’s dad, I love my dad dearly, but sometimes it is okay to just nod thoughtfully and then carry on like it never happened.

    4. Not a bad guy*

      I must be completely out of touch because it just seems obvious to me that salaries should increase in line with inflatation. The pretense that employees are paid in line with their work is just that: a pretense. When gas prices rise, it’s due to inflationary pressure—not because the gas is somehow of a higher quality today than it was yesterday. The same goes for everything else in life. An employee whose salary doesn’t increase in line with inflatation is an employee whose salary is in effect being reduced without his or her agreement or consent, and it’s totally outrageous that employers seem able to look away and pretend that this isn’t their problem.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        That’s a Cost of Living Adjustment (COLA). That’s an increase in pay, but it is usually applied for all employees and not just one person.

        The problem is that this person got a new car for reasons and now they had a car note they didn’t have before and and their car insurance went up. I had to buy a new car is not a reason to ask for a raise or at least it’s not the reason you give to your boss; you yalk about your accomplishments and value.

        1. Not a bad guy*

          Of course. I didn’t mean it should aplly to just one individual; it should apply to all individuals automatically without any need for a negotiation. It should go without saying that no employee in any organization should suffer a reduction in salary because of forces beyond their control (e.g., inflation). I agree that individual problems such as car payments are a different matter, though systematic problems like the rising cost of housing sound be taken into account when deciding what to pay people.

    5. Artemesia*

      Always make a business case when asking for anything. I got a new office created for me after our departments moved and I got shoehorned into a terrible space but laying out why I needed a particular sort of space for the job they wanted me to do. My colleague was stuck in her closet and couldn’t understand why her request for better space didn’t work. She talked about how she had a better office in the other department and she felt it didn’t match her level in the organization.

  4. pally*

    I had a recruiter get angry at me for asking very near the top of the range. Gave me a stern lecture on how nobody is that good to deserve the top of the range.

    Lesson learned for me.

    Course, this was the same recruiter who sang songs from the 1970’s and 1980’s and asked me to identify them. His way of determining my age. I guess if you are gonna be nuts it’s best to go whole hog.

    1. Sloanicota*

      Some people (erm beyond crazy people) just have this mindset, and it’s not my favorite. A “5” book review is not achievable for any actual book – nothing short of a miracle is worthy of an A-plus grade – nobody deserves the top of the salary range.

        1. Ginger Cat Lady*

          He likely gets paid when he brings a candidate that gets hired. You want the top of the range when he knows the range is a lie and they won’t pay that for a new hire? You’re not getting the job and he’s not getting paid and some people respond to disappointment with anger.

          1. Hannah Lee*

            He’s aiming his anger in the wrong direction.
            He should be angry at the hiring company that instructed him to give candidates false salary information.

            (but he never would, because they are who pays him)

    2. Meh*

      Wait what ??? Cause obviously no one grew up in a family where the adults controlled the radio and forced their kids to learn the “oldies” ? My (preteen) kids must be pushing ~40 then !!

    3. AnonForThis*

      I’m 4k above the initial top of the range. No one yelled at me.

      My guess is he knew the employer he was working with wasn’t going to meet that ask and was annoyed at that.

    4. le sigh*

      I had one company, through a recruiter, tell me that they liked me, but they had a candidate with more experience who was willing to take 10K below the stated range. Would I be willing to lower my asking price? The only response I could come up with was to point out a) that would constitute a pay cut for me, which I was not willing to do, and b) if they have a cheaper, more experienced candidate, why are they asking me this? I never got a clear answer on that one. Oh well.

        1. le sigh*

          that’s honestly the only thing I’ve ever been able to come up with. truly a mystery to me what they wanted.

          1. Archi-detect*

            I think on a simpler level because they want the commision they are just willing to pressure you to take the job in a way that will make some people cave

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I’m guessing (hoping?) the lesson you learned was that this recruiter wasn’t worth working with?

      Especially with that last paragraph.

    6. Also-ADHD*

      I can’t imagine what the lesson learned was, unless it was “some interviews will be bad”.

      1. pally*

        My lesson: don’t piss off the recruiter. Ask for close to the low end of the salary range to assure this is the case.

        1. basically functional*

          That’s…not the right lesson. If a bad recruiter/company tries to lowball you on pay and gets angry when you ask for what you’re worth, the lesson is that they are unreasonable and you shouldn’t work with them. You have to advocate for yourself because no one else is going to do it for you, and meekly letting people take advantage of you will not get you very far.

        2. Reluctant Mezzo*

          If a recruiter sends you to a job where you will get a pay cut, I will be miffed off and so will the recruiter by the time I get done.

    7. Lissajous*

      On the flip side the recruiter who found me my current position asked my current salary, what I expected to go up to (at least +8%), and actually put down more (+15%) when sending my résumé through.
      And the company said “yep!” without even blinking.

      So there are good recruiters out there! This one knew what that company was looking for, knew I was likely it, and everyone came away happy. I had the contract for signing within two working days of the interview (would have been 1, but their HR had a day off. They sent me the draft to check over on that day instead.)

      (It helps that I’m in an industry and role where you can be put in categories fairly easily, so going through recruiters tends to work well.)

      1. Lissajous*

        Also, for raises, that company has given me one every year, and decent ones too. So there doesn’t seem to have been an impact there.

  5. Sloanicota*

    OP my fingers are crossed for you that this is truly the hiring range and they are truly open to paying at the top of it (and I do think you should ask) – lately I keep hearing that companies post the range but are likely to offer the very bottom of it or *maybe* the middle, but I think that’s weird game-playing. Plus, you know you’re likely to walk away for less than $100K since you already make that much now, so you really are only interested in $100+ anyway. I would never advise taking a demanding new job for a paycut.

    1. Anon for this*

      I recently asked for a merit raise, and my boss was told by the C-level that everyone gets paid the bottom or middle of the posted salary ranges for our positions, and that if someone was ready for the top of the salary range, then instead we should focus on leveling up our skills so we can be promoted to the next higher range instead.

      I pointed out to my boss that this meant the top half of the posted salary range was a lie and didn’t exist, but he didn’t seem to understand the words coming out of my mouth (or was reluctant to accept that the Cs weren’t arguing in good faith).

    2. Green Goose*

      Ugh I’ve definitely seen this too. At my previous and current company they post a range of, say, $100k-$140k but the “real” salary range is $105k-$125k and that’s all that is budgeted and a HM would need special permission to offer more than the “real” range.

  6. Paige Danger*

    LW, you said it yourself that you are well qualified, perhaps overqualified, for the position. You’re exactly who the top of the range is meant for!

    1. Sloanicota*

      Well put. If the company balks about it, it won’t be because you did anything wrong or were foolish to ask. You had reason to take them at their word that this is what they would offer an extremely qualified highly desirable applicant, and you have good reason to believe you are one.

      1. Cmdrshprd*

        “You had reason to take them at their word that this is what they would offer an extremely qualified highly desirable applicant, and you have good reason to believe you are one.”

        But also it it could be that while OP is a extremely qualified highly desirable applicant, that the company is willing to pay at the top of the range for a candidate similar to OP but that has a focus/experience in XYZ, while OPs focus is in ABC.

        So to say that even if the company balks at OP’s request it isn’t because they were dishonest. OP should 100% ask, nothing to lose really. Unless new company has waaay better benefits, if you are making $100k, $10k may not be worth moving to unknown pastures. Better the devil you know.

        I know OP mentioned more stability and room for advancement, that is certainly worth something, but only OP can decide if that is worth $10k or less raise.

        Nothing says OP can’t keep looking and a better position with more pay and better company won’t come along.

        1. Sloanicota*

          Yes, exactly, the company may have a justification with why they disagree. But they shouldn’t be “mad” at OP for asking for the top of the range, and in my opinion OP should ask for it and let the discussion ensue. Maybe they’ll get what they want, maybe they won’t but there’s not much justification for asking for a lower number than you really think you deserve.

    2. MidWest Library Director*

      I was overqualified for a position that I interviewed for back in May. They asked for my salary requirements, I told them that if they were willing to go to the top of their salary range, I could make that work. I was very blunt, but I expressed my enthusiasm for the town, their library, and the challenges of the position.

      I was waiting on tenterhooks for their response, and it was two days *after* they promised to get back to me – they had gone back to their budget and reworked it to they could offer me 5% *more* than the top of their range. I accepted, and now I’m in their corner office. Ask. If you don’t get it, then it wasn’t the ideal situation you thought it was.

  7. HonorBox*

    OP, I’d ask. Worst case, they offer you something less than the top of the range. But they’ve posted it, and you’re justified in asking, both because you have the qualifications and because why would you make a lateral move without some progress in pay. If you need to make a case if they push back, you can definitely do that. They posted the range, and I hope it is the range they’re willing to honor.

  8. Fikly*

    These days, raises, regardless of the reason, are almost always percentage based, so it is to your extreme benefit to come in at the highest starting salary you can. It’s basic math.

    This is yet another reason women and minorities make so much less over their lifetimes.

    1. pally*

      Oh yes!
      It is also a good strategy with a start-up as salary increases can be few and far between.

    2. Sara without an H*

      +1. I (mis)spent my career in higher education, where raises were not guaranteed every year. (A lot depended on the mood of the legislature and the price of winter wheat.) Get the money up front, because you don’t know what future raises will look like.

  9. JPalmer*

    Allison’s advice was great today LW! Definitely listen to it over your dad!

    One little other bit, if you ask for the top of the salary range and they don’t like it, they can push back. It isn’t like they will guaranteed throw your candidacy out. They’d be more likely to question you on it. If they do, you can make case that you are exceptionally qualified citing prior work experiences A, B and C.

    Totally agree with Allison on the ‘weak game playing’. Having confidence to speak towards reasonable asks can increase the opinion of a candidate. It is a statement of “I can have tough conversation about requirements to ensure needs are met, do you want to employ me to do this for your company”.

  10. WantonSeedStitch*

    I think the advice to ask for a “meaningful increase” is silly. I mean, you know your current salary and have decided $110K IS what you consider a “meaningful increase.” Your prospective employer doesn’t know what you consider a “meaningful increase,” even if you tell them your current salary (which you shouldn’t).

    1. sparkle emoji*

      Good point. “Meaningful increase” could be a lot bigger than 10K and by saying that you could make them think you’re outside the range. They also don’t know what LW is currently making, unless you’ve already told them? They don’t have the necessary info to know what increase is meaningful to you and will likely much prefer to know up front than playing coy guessing games.

  11. Spicy Tuna*

    Something else to consider that may or may not be applicable in this situation. The last time I interviewed for a position, it was a “senior manager”. I was offered the job at the manager level because my previous managerial experience was a little thin. They kept the salary the same but made the title lower. The following year (may have been 18 months), I was promoted to senior manager and got a big boost from changing title – the band was different. So instead of coming in at the lowest end of senior manager and just getting a standard COLA raise, I went in at the highest range of manager and then got COLA + promotion.

  12. Peanut Hamper*

    Any company that bases layoffs strictly on the highest salaries is probably in deep financial trouble and you’re probably at risk of losing a job regardless of what your salary is, it seems to me.

    1. fhqwhgads*

      Maybe, maybe not. Certainly not a good sign, but I did once work somewhere that had gotten a bit top-heavy and the CEO decided he’d rather let one C-Suite go instead of 3 lower paid people. It made more financial and logistical sense.
      But then again, was more complex than “paid more = gone” and there was actual reasoning behind the choice.

    2. ItDefinitelyHappens*

      I’ve gotten laid off twice because I was the highest paid person in my role. The rationale was supposedly by laying off higher paid people they minimized the number of folks they needed to lay off.

      That said, I’d rather get paid what I’m worth and take my chances.

  13. anon today*

    I’m a recruiter and a big part of my job is to get a candidate’s number/range up front, because if the candidate and the company are misaligned without knowing, it wastes everyone’s time. The “meaningful increase” response your dad is recommending would drive me up the wall, especially if you kept repeating it when asked for clarity(because they will ask). Follow your instincts and be honest. You have good reasons to want 110k and it sounds like you have the skills to make that pay worth it for a company.

    1. I still use Notepad*

      Why not give the company’s range up front?

      Most people I know trash recruiter emails that don’t provide this information.

        1. Space Needlepoint*

          Exactly. Why should I give the company an opportunity to lowball me if they actually pay well above market rate?

          Personally, I don’t apply for jobs that don’t have a salary listed. It’s usually a waste of time.

      2. anon today*

        I typically do, but for a role in the range LW mentions, there can be more flexibility than some of the hourly roles I also hire for. And some people tell me what I want to hear when I give the range if it’s close enough to what they want, thinking they can go to an interview and wow the hiring team enough that they’ll just offer more without it being asked for. When that doesn’t happen, then someone who told me x was good now wants x+5. I can sometimes get that but I need to know to ask for it.
        Plus, I’m often hiring for a number of similar roles, so if one range is too low, there may be another that’s higher if a candidate is flexible about commute times or some other variable.

      3. Blue Pen*

        Yes, same. If I come across a job listing without a salary range posted, I’m immediately uninterested as it signals to me that this company is going to play games and try to lowball me. No, pass.

    2. Tell me a number*

      Too true. Just give me a number, and I’ll see if I can make it work.

      Don’t make me guess what you want, because it leads to repeated rounds of discussion.

      ‘I want a meaningful increase’

      ‘OK so we’ll offer you $xx’

      ‘I was looking for a meaningful increase.’

      ‘OK how about $x+5?’

      JUST TELL ME WHAT YOU WANT.

      1. BitterGravity*

        One problem there is it depends on the benefits package as well. Yeah every company says they have a great one, but I’ve had 10% straight 401k contributions and 6 weeks off a year, and 6% with 3 weeks. It took a very significant increase to get me to change there that would’ve been lower if benefits were better.

        Otherwise it’s like

        X-1.1% per 401k percent match (since tax advantaged) + $5k per day in person expected + 4% if 3 weeks leave starting etc

        1. Pita Chips*

          I have found employers can get very cagey about sharing their benefits information. I usually can’t get the full details of exactly how much would be deducted from my check until the 3rd or 4th interview. I have a history of cancer. It is utterly crucial that my doctors are in network.

  14. Just Thinkin' Here*

    OP, the advice you got from parent is probably dated or based on a particular industry or government. There are times where coming in at the top of the range isn’t great. Mainly because it can mean no ability to get a raise if there is a salary cap and you’re already at it. I’d be a little concerned walking into a job at the top of the pay band unless there is a clear path for promotion or you are what I call “parking yourself in a safe job” while you focus on other things like retirement, family, health, etc.

    As for the raise bit, this isn’t really a concern if you are at the top of the range (see above) but can be an issue if you are debating between two jobs offering the same salary with different pay bands. A few large companies and governments will assign raises based on “pushing” people from the bottom half to the middle at a faster pace than pushing those in the top half to the max of the pay band. In this case, it’s better to take the higher pay band job at the lower end of the range. You’ll get the benefit of getting pushed to the middle faster, but more importantly, you’ll get the benefit of the higher salary max. Always go with the job that has the higher salary ceiling (IMHO).

    1. mreasy*

      This whole idea that it’s better to get less money now so that you can get raises in the future doesn’t make any sense to me. If there is a salary cap for your pay band and you ask for an receive the top of that cap, you net out more money than if you ask for $Cap – $20K and are raised up to $Cap in 2 years. Getting a raise is great, but already having had that salary for a year is even better.

      (That said if your desired salary is the middle of the pay band for Job A and the top of the pay band for Job B, maybe it does make sense to take Job A, all other things being equal, including potential for promotion to a higher band. But when are all other things ever equal?)

    2. Orv*

      Government would make sense. In my job there actually is a firmly defined salary range they can’t deviate from, and they’re required to advertise that range.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, the same for me. I’ve worked for the government for most of my career and there’s really no room for salary or benefits negotiations, at least not on the base salary that’s based on the competence class.

        Many agencies have a performance-based salary bonus that can be up to 50% on top of the base salary, but I’ve never heard of anyone having more than 20% unless they’re somehow stuck in the wrong salary band and that’s a way to compensate for it. People are generally hired at the bottom of the performance-based salary, but they can get a raise as soon as they pass probation.

        COL raises affect the base salary, personal raises only affect the performance percentage. And the raises are tiny, during the pandemic my whole department earned a 2% hike because we went above and beyond, and all employees got at least 1% more. So when I hear of people getting 25% raises in their current job, I go like “yeah, right.”

        Oh well, to compensate for a rather mediocre salary and very limited opportunities for raises, at least I have very good PTO (I basically work 10 months out of the year not counting any sick leave) and a short workweek (FT is 36 hours 15 minutes or 7 hours 15 minutes per day) with lots of flexibility and no expectations of being reachable when I’m not working.

        1. Orv*

          That’s pretty much my experience. I did have a department work hard to reclassify my job in a higher pay band, once, but that was a case where the job had legitimately changed to encompass a lot more work and responsibility than the original description.

      2. Just Thinkin' Here*

        I’ll clarify – absolutely always go for the higher salary! I’m more concerned that the OP is limiting their future potential by taking a job where she knows she’s already capped herself out of future raises. I’d keep looking in the job market for something with more future potential.

    3. Glen*

      yeah, no. Getting paid 90k at the start and “only” getting a 5k raise after your annual review still leaves you 5k ahead of getting hired at 85 and getting a 10k raise, and that’s not counting any returns on the extra 5k (which you may use to get ahead on a mortgage, put in an offset account, etc).

  15. Katie*

    Ask for the high end! My company raises some times give better raises to people who make on the lower end of the pay scale. One year, they did give extra large raises to those on the low end and very small to the high end. However every other year they still got average raises.

    1. DameB*

      Right? I remember in my 20s realizing that my parents didn’t understand the job market and just disregarding their advice.

    2. CR*

      Yes! So many problems people write in about would be solved if they stopped giving details about their professional lives to their outdated boomer parents. Boundaries!

      1. Evan Þ*

        Aren’t you a generation off? Boomers would usually be grandparents these days.

        My grandparents were great people, but definitely out of touch with modern career norms. Except for “max out your retirement account”; Grandpa’s advice was definitely good there.

          1. AK_Blue*

            I am Gen X, parents are boomers, they still love to give me job advice! So thus the boundary is we just don’t talk about work. :)

    4. illuminate*

      The year is 2019. My father, whose roof I live under as a college dropout, makes me dress up in my nicest, most dysphoria-inducing clothes and drives me around to drop off paper copies of my nearly empty resume and then follow up with phone calls every day, because That’s How You Get A Job.

      I’m sorry I didn’t burn that skirt when I moved out, but I’m so glad I moved out. (I got the job I have by applying online like a normal person.)

  17. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

    OP, negotiate your heart out. As others note, “top of the range” is often not the actual top of the range. I cannot tell you how upset I was to not negotiate my first post-grad-school job and then receive a 26% salary increase in the second year (based on my industry/sector, this indicated to me that I had been paid well below starting for similarly situated folks and that this was a salary correction).

    I now negotiate everything possible every time possible. Want me to move across the country? We’re going to have to talk relocation. Want me to travel more? We’ll talk about travel policies and reimbursement. Want me to relocate to a higher COL area? I am going to want to earn enough to come out at least neutral (ideally better than neutral, otherwise why move if the jobs are functionally the same?) afterward.

    There are lots of valid reasons to ask for the top of the range. And once we throw gender identity in the mix (which may/may not apply), the disparities between who negotiates and how much they ask for tend to grow. Hell, you could even ask for above the top of the range if you felt it was justifiable and appropriate. Your dad is looking at this from an outdated view of the relationship between employers and employees. His view may be valid for him based on his experiences, but it’s just not where a lot of the market is, today. Go forth and get your bag!

  18. Rusty Canovcoke*

    10K over current salary is the MINIMUM I’d take to make a move. Moving companies is a hassle. Starting over with benefits and 401K is a hassle. And if you come with relevant, current, market experience? Heck GO FOR IT. Honestly, I’d even ask if they had any wiggle room to raise it if you’ll be doing substantially more than you are currently.

    Good Luck going forward in the process and KNOW YOUR WORTH! :)

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Yes, unless you are desperate to leave your job and are overpaid, aim for at least a 10% raise to make the hassle worthwhile. Aim for much more if this is required to bring you up to market level.

  19. HailRobonia*

    Dear employers:

    If you don’t want people asking for $110,000 as a starting salary, make the range smaller.

    1. Space Lasers*

      Yes!! I hate when the range isn’t actually the range. It feels like a trick question. I’ve seen posted ranges and then been told that the actual budget for the position was substantially lower than the upper end of the range. It just wastes everyone’s time

    2. Another Hiring Manager*

      It’s so frustrating. They post a range that high in case a unicorn applies. I’ve had multiple HR people tell me the company never wants to pay above the midpoint of the range.

      1. HailRobonia*

        My organization publishes its salary ranges and the only people I know at the top of their band are admins in dead-end jobs who’ve been there for decades.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      If you want 37 pieces of flair, then make the minimum 37 pieces of flair.

      If you offer $X as the maximum, then don’t be surprised when a highly qualified candidate asks for $X.

      This should work both ways.

  20. M2*

    It is always fine to ask. I have only ever paid the very top of the range 2x and both times I had to go to bat with HR and both people were coming from higher level titles/ positions, but wanted to be at our organization. I really wanted them and had an idea they weren’t job hoppers and knew they had the potential for growth. BUT both times I went to HR and it took forever/ I used my OWN capital/ parts of my own budget were cut to pay for them. I thought it was worth it.

    I am ALWAYS up front about salary. HR gives a range which bothers me, so whenever I get to the interview stage I tell the applicant the max salary HR will pay. I say, “the salary due to parity and equity and HR rules for this role is maximum $100K. HR will not go above that salary and if HR has not sent you the benefits package please reach out to them to have a look to take that into consideration.” If I get the idea the person thinks they can go above what the max HR will pay I say the max salary again at the end of the interview and ask if they are still interesting in continuing know that is the max salary, even if the range only might be $85-$110K.

    It is VERY frustrating when I am VERY clear and people get their offer and come back and ask for 10-30% more when I am VERY clear about salary. Our organization pays above market rate (done the data we are 10-15% higher than our top competitors & most are all in HCOL areas- those in our area pay 20-30% less for same roles). I am fine with people asking me and happy to clarify, but I am very clear with people so both sides understand.

    Always ask, as fields are different.

    1. Never Knew I was a Dancer*

      I get why you’d be frustrated when candidates do that, but I can’t really blame them for trying. *You* know you’re being honest and forthright, but candidates have experienced plenty of situations where what they’re told ahead of a negotiation (a salary range, say) is not the entire truth. And as we’re seeing in this thread, candidates are told that $X is the limit, and when they name a number higher than X, the team comes back and is able to budge a bit.

      Hopefully more organizations like yours become the norm when it comes to truthfulness in salary negotiations, but until that happens, I think you’ll be encountering people who are playing by a slightly safer set of rules.

  21. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    It’s astonishing that some people think/claim it’s bad to receive the top of the range because they won’t have room for raises. Don’t they do simple arithmatic to compare a lower salary over say 3 years with – worst case – being frozen at the higher salary? Starting higher always wins out.
    I’d always assumed it was just the HM trying to con the candidates into accepting a lower salary and hence coming under their hiring budget.

    In practice, you can get promoted or just get your next raise at a new job elsewhere.

  22. EngGirl*

    When I was interviewing for my current job I was making 80k in a lower cost of living area. The job was a lateral move but it was in a field I wanted to work in and brought me physically closer to family, and got me out of a really terribly toxic work environment. When I asked about the range for the position, they said 75-105k starting salary. I said that I would be looking to be near the top of that range. I’d done the math and knew I would need to make about 95k with comparable benefits to move to the higher cost of living area and be able to live my life in the same way.

    The offer came in at 100k plus relocation (which I didn’t even ask for initially) and far superior benefits. The only thing I didn’t like was the vacation time, but it was workable. If I hadn’t said I needed to be at the upper end of their range they probably would have offered me 90k and I probably would have just taken it and taken the lifestyle hit.

    1. Not a bad guy*

      “I’d done the math and knew I would need to make about 95k with comparable benefits to move to the higher cost of living area and be able to live my life in the same way.”

      This is very interesting in light of what others have said. Many people seem to believe that such considerations should have no effect whatsoever when it comes to negotiating and increasing salaries and that what an employee is paid should be based on nothing more than what that employee can contribute. And yet time and again I see people—typically those on high incomes—say exactly what you’ve said and get results. Is this a case of employers effectively categorizing employees based on how much leverage they have, with the concerns of highly qualified candidates being taken into consideration and those of less well-qualified employees being dismissed on the basis that such employees are easily replaceable (“We don’t care about your cost of living. If you want a raise, work harder or find another job”)?

      1. New Jack Karyn*

        The difference is, EngGirl’s math stays on her side. She doesn’t give it to the employer as a reason for her to make that amount. You figure out what your minimum is, and tell them to make you an offer. Be honest about what you need to change jobs–especially if you have to relocate. At the offer stage, you’ve already gone over your experience, skills, etc. They know what you’re bringing to the table.

        When asking for a raise, make the business case. Scout out what other local companies offer for similar roles, highlight your accomplishments, all of that. It’s also legit to ask for a COLA, due to inflation, but not to remark on personal costs. COLA is about everyone needing more income, not just you.

        1. EngGirl*

          I actually did bring up the higher COL, but I didn’t name my exact number because I didn’t want to cut myself off at the knees and if 105 was on the table I’d take the money. We’d also discussed why I was interested in the move, so we’d talked about how it was actually my hometown and I wanted to move back. The area has experienced a truly insane COL increase in the last 5-10 years to the point it’s been featured on national news a few times when talking about inflation. I put it in a very matter of fact way “I would be looking to be on the upper end of that range, due to my experience as well as the high COL in the area.” It ended up leading to a side conversation about how nuts real estate was in the area lol.

          Based on the job description and requirements I knew I was a good fit and I had more experience/education than they were looking for so I felt comfortable asking for the high end of the range even without the high COL, and I felt like I would be the kind of candidate they would want to have enough to factor that in. I also think since I was wanting to relocate it would show that I was familiar with the area and knew what I was getting into.

  23. Space Lasers*

    I interviewed for a job once that would have been a substantial salary cut from my previous but that I felt would be a good move professionally, so I was willing to take a cut, but wanted to limit it as much as possible. When asked what my expected salary was, I said that I was flexible but aiming towards the upper end of the range. When pressed, I finally gave an actual number close to but not at the top of the posted range. The recruiter immediately expressed surprise and said that most of the other people she’d interviewed had given a number more towards the middle of the range. She then said that the posted range was the set range for that level position at the company and that it was not possible for someone at the company at that level to make more than the top of the range without a promotion. So therefore starting at the top of the range would mean little or no raises until promotion. I was frustrated, because it felt to me then that the posted range and the question was almost a trick question, if giving a number at the upper end of the range would be a “wrong” answer. Surprisingly, I made it pretty far in the interview process and then the company pulled a lot of weird BS at the end and I didn’t get the job. I actually wound up somewhere much better and with a substantially higher salary, so I definitely dodged a bullet. So basically, in my experience, giving a number at the top of the range can be a bad answer, but I guess if that does happen, it can be a good way to learn that that move might not be the best for you anyway.

    1. But maybe not*

      This is what I expect out of my employer. I work at a public university and our salary bands are public. I caution everyone I know who might apply that the top of the salary range is the max out number, and that the university has a rule to hire within the first third unless there are extenuating circumstances. (Most people don’t believe me and come back with a shocked pikachu that they weren’t able to negotiate higher.) I think this is true for most government/public jobs in my state, so when I see a salary band for a public job, I assume the top end is the max and not the hiring range.

  24. DeskApple*

    wow OP’s situation is almost identical to mine and I have an interview tomorrow so this is very helpful!

  25. PurlsOfWisdom*

    “You may ignore your dad with impunity” has officially made it into my top 10 Alison phrases ever.

    1. St. Mary’s Institute of Historical Research*

      Raise your hand if “ignore your dad with impunity” is advice that’s going to get you through the next 12 weeks or so.

  26. learnedthehardway*

    Why would you change jobs (if you’re happy and performing well and progressing where you are), if there wasn’t an increase in salary?

    I would not only ask for the top of the range – I’d ask for about $10K more. See what they do with that. At least you will have something to negotiate down from.

    As a recruiter, it never made any sense to me that companies would try to claim that it was better to take a lower salary now so that you can get raises later. How does anyone think that is a logical argument? Bird in hand, people!!! Not to mention that net present value is based on HAVING the money in hand.

  27. Uh Oh HR*

    Just don’t indicate that you’re comfortable with top of range in interviews, then try to negotiate a bonkers amount higher during the offer phase. It’s a fun new habit that’s quickly becoming my villain origin story.

    1. AnonForThis*

      I dealt with a candidate who did this.

      Confirmed range in initial interview. He was good with it. Go through interviews and get to the offer.

      Offer was about 10k off the top of the 200k range.

      Candidate countered with some options he would be walking away from. Fine.

      We update the offer. He then remembered more options he would be getting. Then remembered a raise he would be getting.

      By the time he was done his ask (and keep in mind he was good with the range) he wanted 150k ABOVE the range we had discussed.

      I jokingly said I wanted to keep going to see how high he could get it.

  28. RJ*

    Would love to see a reader compilation of some of the most outdated job advice still dispensed by parents and other figures. I love hearing it. One of my good college friends was completely hobbled for half of his professional career because of his dad’s well-meaning but terrible job advice.

      1. RJ*

        Oh yes. My friend worked himself to the bone at 3 different jobs chasing a promotion his dad assured him would definitely come if he showed them how hard he was capable of working. Spoiler alert: he was promoted at none of them, and one place fired him!

        1. Space Needlepoint*

          My father worked for one company (in various jobs) his entire career. It’s a totally different mindset for today. Companies expect the same loyalty, but do precious little to keep it. Hard work is more often rewarded with more work rather than promotion and salary increases.

  29. Stuart Foote*

    This job advice is outdated (or maybe it was always bad advice), but it sounds like the dad in this scenario is telling the LW not to ask for the top of the salary range of $110k, but rather for a “meaningful increase” which would total…$110k (honestly probably more but let’s assume that is the max number for this role). Am I missing something or does this math not add up?

  30. MaxPower*

    Basic math says that the higher wage starting, even if it is frozen for 3 years is worth more than a lower wage with 3 years of raises to get to the that cap.

    110k+110k+110k=330k
    100k+105k+110k=315k

  31. A Simple Narwhal*

    Ah dads. They mean well.

    I love both of my parents but I absolutely learned to not take career advice from them. (After too many years of taking career advice from them.)

  32. Umiel12*

    I asked for, and got, the maximum posted for my last position. It didn’t stop my continuing to get raises and other opportunities. If you ask for something, you might get it or you might not. If you don’t ask, then you probably won’t get it. I have gotten away with all kinds of things over the years simply by asking.

  33. Somewhere in Texas*

    Depending on industry, your raises may be done as a percentage of your current salary. If you start low, you will never catch up-especially when raise increases are capped at a specific a certain percent.

  34. lost academic*

    Not your question, but if you’re underpaid for your role and this is a lateral, chances are very good that 110k is less than you need to be asking for. Just because it’s listed as the top of the range in some ad doesn’t mean that’s the top of their range. You should indeed compare overall compensation, but it also matters that there’s a lot more travel and that’s going to be associated with direct and indirect costs for you. Look at what you really should be compensated with and go for that.

  35. AnonForThis*

    I applied for a position I was all qualified for that had an 88k-102k range.

    I was offered 101k. I told them, truthfully that I was in final stages of a position that was going to offer 102k with one hybrid day. I countered 105k (which was the wear and tear and extra cost for my vehicle that 5th day) and they accepted that in about 20 minutes.

    I’m happy with the number but the speed of the reply did make me wish I’d asked for even more $$$

    So if the highest paid are laid off first…uh oh. But as the review and raise cycle is in October and I won’t be eligible I’m glad I countered as it sort of counts as my increase this year.

    1. Not a bad guy*

      “I countered 105k (which was the wear and tear and extra cost for my vehicle that 5th day) and they accepted that in about 20 minutes.”

      Pretty interesting in light of the discussion above. It just goes to show that the notion that salaries have nothing to do with an employee’s personal circumstances is a pretense used by unscrupulous employers to underpay their staff.

      1. AnonForThis*

        I didn’t specifically say it was wear and tear…but did make it clear it was what I would need to give up the 1 day per week of WFH… so who knows how far they thought it through.

  36. uncle bob*

    I’ve been at a lot of companies and the idea that layoffs are done by salary to save $10k is ludicrous. There is absolutely no reason to not try to maximize your salary at every opportunity.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, I’ve seen (unfortunately) multiple rounds of layoffs at my workplace, and there’s nothing to indicate it’s based on laying off first the people who had slightly higher starting salaries.

  37. Sparkle llama*

    One other piece on his specific wording – in some places you would be baiting the employer into breaking the law. In my US state it is illegal to ask for prior salary or wages. It is pretty new but I could see that adding to the frustration for the recruiters.

    1. fhqwhgads*

      I’m pretty sure once you, the candidate, bring up your current salary, them asking in response to that doesn’t run afoul of those laws.

      1. TheBunny*

        Correct. I’m also in one of those states. We can’t ask…but when the candidate volunteers the info we can use it.

        I just always to make sure to put in my interview notes “candidate volunteered unasked” with the salary info.

        1. Sparkle llama*

          Yeah I am sure there are ways to navigate this legally as the recruiter, but could see it really throwing a recruiter or hiring manager who knows of the law but isn’t thoroughly versed or used to it.

          Also I am imagining the interviewee saying they want a meaningful increase over current but leaving it at that which leaves the obvious question of what is your current compensation which feels more gray than if the interviewer says a meaningful increase over my current compensation of XX.

          Terrible advice regardless!

  38. A Librarian*

    A new state law in Minnesota requires that we post the actual starting range. If it’s not on the table it’s not in the job posting. If the candidate ticks all the boxes I would be happy to have them start at the top of the hiring range.

  39. el l*

    Stick to your guns. And don’t worry about a higher salary putting you in line for layoffs. Because that’s only likely to play when you’re earning like 100% more than a comparable colleague, not 10% more. Your bigger risk factor for layoffs is your job function (the closer you are to revenue generation and core functions, the safer you are) and current health of industry.

    It’s true there are job hunting scenarios where it can be good to let the other person give the first number – say if there’s an incredibly wide salary range or there’s a very vague job description (suggesting uncertainty on what the job will do).

    But in that circumstance, you don’t frame it as based on what your salary is now. The current job comparison is irrelevant at best (not the same job) and against your interests at worst. The better way to be vague – which I’ve done – is “I expect to be paid at the fair market rate.” You can poke holes in that statement, but at least it sets a tough-but-fair tone.

    But here, you know precisely what it’ll take to get you to leave. So ask for it.

  40. Skippy*

    My grandmother (who was a very astute investor but whose management knowledge came from my steel-plant executive grandfather) told me that she didn’t think people should ask for raises or *have* to ask for raises, because the company should just give them. She didn’t understand that seeing the company as the benevolent papa who would give you health care and a pension and a turkey at Christmas was not how things go anymore.

    1. Boof*

      I think for companies that are actually committed to equity, the only negotiations would be more about moving around various variables than having to push for the total compensation package to be increased (because the employer would proactively evaluate the regional benchmarks, the productivity, and pay everyone commensurately for the amount of work they were doing; not underpaying people who they can get away with it and overpaying people who charm the right people). And if it’s increased, it would increase for everyone doing similar work.
      Of course in reality many companies are not that well organized or farsighted. I’m pretty happy mine seems to have rolled out a compensation plan now that seems much more along that route, though. If I want more $$ it’s pretty clear I can do more work, and/or apply to move to a more senior level that has a pretty clear path/process /timeline to get to.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Your grandmother is half right. They shouldn’t have to ask for raises. Does that mean they shouldn’t ask for raises? Maybe not. I’ve actually been at a number of places where I’ve gotten unsolicited raises, but I don’t think that’s the norm, based on what others have said here.

      If you’re an employee, should you wait for a raise if you’ve never gotten one? No.

      If you’re an employer, though, you should absolutely proactively reward your best performers, regardless of whether they ask for a raise or not. Asking shouldn’t be what gets you the raise—doing good work should be.

  41. Silverose*

    If I’m looking at lateral moves in my field, I’m totally asking for top of the range – I have 10 years experience in the field beyond the minimum required college degree. If I’m looking at reach jobs that are a step up (which is my primary focus right now), then I’ll consider asking for mid-range.

  42. Anonymous Educator*

    This is just anecdata, of course, but when I started my position, they gave me a starting salary, I asked for more, and they held firm on the offer. I took it. In the subsequent years, they gave me unsolicited raises in response to my performance, and when I hit the top of the salary range for my level, they said they “had to” then raise me to the next level in order to give me a raise, so they did. If you work at a place worth working, they won’t think “Oh, but we gave you the top of the range when you started, so you never / rarely get a raise.”

  43. maw*

    If one is being realistic about what one brings to the table as far as skills and what is realistic salaries for the market, if they withdraw an offer because you respectfully tried to negotiate, then it’s a place you probably don’t want to work for anyways…..Early red flags like that are a gift from the universe

  44. Blue Pen*

    I don’t know if this negates or adds to Alison’s response, but in higher education at least, these salary ranges are pretty firm. My employer posts a range demarcating the minimum the job would pay, the median, and then the maximum. Although I’ve never heard someone say you shouldn’t go for the maximum, in my impression, the median (give or take $5-10K in either direction) is usually where you’ll land. And that’s not to say that the maximum is never given, but they try to discourage you from getting too close to that number, because with annual merit increases, you’ll cycle out of that salary band and you’ll either be stuck or they’ll have to promote you into a higher-paying classification range.

  45. Jennifer Juniper*

    Would that also apply if the commenter is a woman or of color? Or are the rules about negotiating only being for white men still in effect? I’m asking this as a question, not an attempt to be racist or start a dumpster fire.

Comments are closed.