my boss is pressuring me to work more hours … I just came back from stress leave

by Alison Green on August 12, 2024

A reader writes:

I recently took a couple of weeks off work because of a work-stress-related mental breakdown, and came back today. Our project is a nightmare — toxic culture, inexperienced leadership, over-budget, understaffed.

Brian, our project manager and my grandboss, is responsible for a lot of the problems. He also can’t manage the members of our team who underperform (he has no clue what everyone below him does all day) or the ones who fly off the handle (yelling, slamming doors, walking out of meetings). I’m not the only one who’s one bad day away from resigning on the spot. It’s the perfect storm, and I was on a slow spiral for months until I snapped.

Brian pulled me aside today to “make sure you’re doing okay.” I answered that I was on the mend, and am keeping an eye on my mental health and implementing some strategies I’m working out with my psychologist. For example, taking regular breaks, and working 7am-5pm only (standard hours in my industry). I’d already had a meeting with my line manager, Sarah, to sort out workload priorities to make sure the critical work got done. Sarah is really happy with my performance, and she supports my recovery and boundaries.

Brian was shocked and insisted that I work overtime (unpaid — I’m exempt). He believes he’s been generous by “letting” the team to leave by 5:15pm and hadn’t mandated Saturdays (an old school industry norm, but definitely not the norm now), so I should “put in the hours” now. He insisted that I wasn’t performing and if I don’t work through to the evening, I risk pushing his project deeper into distress. He’s expecting everyone to “step up because the company and client will expect it” and “nobody is bigger than the project.” This is wildly out of step with our company culture/values.

I flatly told Brian that I’m not planning on slacking off, but I’m planning on managing my health. Working more hours won’t solve the project’s problems, and I’d just had a breakdown because of overwork and chaotic management. If he wants me to sacrifice my health, I’ll quit. I asked him to speak to Sarah if there are any issues with this. He did this afternoon, and Sarah was supportive of everything we’d agreed to and told him he was being ridiculous and to butt out.

I don’t know where to go from here. I’m expecting Brian to retaliate somehow. Sarah, my actual boss, is happy with my performance and doesn’t want me sticking around late for the sake of it — she wants me healthy so I can do my job. I have a mentor within the company, but he’s national head of our department (my great-great grandboss), and he’s already on Brian’s case about his performance and the project culture, so I feel like that’s breaking chain of command to ask him for advice. I’m hesitant to get HR involved.

The job market is hot for this industry and I could find another job tomorrow, but I really want to stick it out because I’ve worked hard on this project and want to see it out. I just think Brian’s being completely unreasonable, and while I’m happy to quit I want to try something else first.

If you’re confident that you could find another job tomorrow, you have a lot of power here. Knowing you could easily get another job means you don’t need to feel pressure to compromise on your health or the hours you’re willing to work.

I don’t know that there’s anything you need to do right now. It sounds like Sarah has your back and made it clear to Brian that she’s happy with your work and he needs to leave you alone.

Of course, Brian is Sarah’s boss, so I don’t know if he’ll actually accept that or not. But you probably have a good idea of how much capital and influence Sarah has, what her dynamic is with Brian, and how willing or unwilling he is to overrule her — and those things are likely to play a role in what, if anything, happens next.

At this point, it likely makes sense to just wait and see. If Brian backs off, great. If he doesn’t, you’re willing to walk. Also great.

A few things I might disagree with from your letter: First, it’s not necessarily a bad idea to have a discreet conversation with your mentor. You said you’re worried about breaking chain of command, but (a) this is your mentor, so that’s less of a concern than it would be if you never talked to each other, and (b) since he already has significant concerns about Brian, he’d probably be pretty interested in hearing that Brian is actively in the process of messing up something additional. Second, it might also be wise to loop HR in — not in the “I’m here to complain about Brian” sense, but as a way to ensure the steps you’re taking to manage your health are documented (and possibly officially sanctioned, which could make it harder for Brian to give you a hard time about it).

Last, this part: “I really want to stick it out because I’ve worked hard on this project and want to see it out.” That’s understandable, and it’s a normal thing to feel if you’re conscientious and invested in your work. But you also just had a breakdown related to work stress, and you describe the culture you’re returning to as a toxic mess, and one where you’re worried about retaliation for protecting yourself. Your mental health is more important than seeing out a project.  Don’t get so focused on “must stay” that you miss signs that you’d be better off leaving.

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    1. Artemesia*

      This. In a year, you won’t care a whit about this very important project, but you will care about your mental health. Start looking now for a better job.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        I left a job a few years ago, after working on a pretty cool project for several years, because the work environment became awful. I was kinda worried that I’d have FOMO or regrets about leaving the project, but I didn’t.

        1. Pine Tree*

          This is helpful. I’m expecting an offer any minute now for a new job that is on paper very boring compared to my current position. But my current position is so exhausting and frustrating. It might look interesting on paper, but it’s stressing me out and it’s not enjoyable at all. I’m worried about FOMO if I take the “boring” job, but right now boring sounds pretty good.

          1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

            Well, in my case, I shifted to something I found much more interesting. The project I had been on was cool, but my role in it wasn’t something I particularly enjoyed, even though I did get satisfaction from moving things along.

            Do you think *you* will find the work boring? Because it’s totally possible to be fascinated by work that most people would find boring. If you think you probably would find the work boring, are you the type of person who can be OK with that, or would it kill your soul? Is this a sensible stepping stone away from toxic job and then forward to something better?

            1. Pine Tree*

              I find parts of it interesting, and the parts of it that other people find super boring I find weirdly interesting. But my whole career I’ve had a job that other people say “that’s so cool!” and even though I know it’s ridiculous, I’m struggling with the thought of having a job that other people will think “yuck, that’s boring, what’s wrong with Pine Tree’s career that they ended up doing that?”

              But the “boring” job is very complex but straightforward, no real drama, and I know I’m super good at that type of work. And I just need to feel like I’m not banging my head against a wall repeatedly every day to get my job done.

              I need to schedule a session with my therapist….

              1. Good Lord Ratty*

                Don’t take a job (or not take a job!) based on what other people might think! Except in exceedingly rare cases, it’s not worth making professional decisions based on other people’s subjective judgments. The important factors are: will you enjoy it (or at least like it *enough*, most of the time), will it pay you adequately and fairly, does it have the work-life balance you require, and do you get the sense that the workplace is functional. What others might think – especially whether they might think it’s boring! – should not come into it much if at all.

            2. Good Lord Ratty*

              Can confirm. I have a job that would bore most people to tears, and on paper it does sound extremely dry (even to me!), but I actually find it quite interesting.

      2. Sparkles McFadden*

        Yup. I think you’re very invested in the project, LW, because everything else about your job is terrible.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I agree. “If I can just get this project launched it won’t all have been for nothing” or similar thoughts can keep you, LW, on a treadmill of Trying To Make It Worthwhile.

          But…it sounds, from your letter, that everything about this place is actively sabotaging anything worthwhile about this company, this job, or this project. Even if you manage to get the thing out, who knows what this management will do to it? Will you even want the end product on your resume?

          They don’t see this project as yours. They see it as theirs to fold, spindle and mutilate. Don’t let them do that to you or your well being.

        2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Wow, I hadn’t thought about it this way, but that makes sense. (I’m not the LW).

    2. PhD survivor*

      Yes please consider leaving. I was once in a toxic job with a terrible boss and thought I was handling it fine. But when I moved to a new company, everything was so much better and I began thriving. Why stay in this terrible job if you can easily get a better one? You don’t owe them anything, do what is best for your health and your career.

    3. megaboo*

      100%. If you’ve already had to take a mental health break, it sounds like Brian isn’t going to change his outlook. If Sarah wants to take on Brian, and you think you’ll get support from her, then I would consider staying.

      1. Hannah Lee*

        Even if Sarah is willing to push back on him, and frankly, even if there are already things in motion to push him out LW should *still* thinking about leaving. Base on what LW has written, this is not a company I’d want to stick around in, especially if my project manager has unrealistic and unhealthy expectations about the project output, timeline and my work schedule.

        For whatever reason, this is a company, a management team, that allowed a big project to become a pressure cooker, and as you say “a nightmare — toxic culture, inexperienced leadership, over-budget, understaffed”

        If this is such an important project why, exactly, did management, including people higher up than Brian and Sarah, staff it with inexperienced leadership? why did they launch it without enough staffing? And why are they letting Brian remain as the project manager when they *already* have concerns about him.

        The fact that they did and then let it motor on with a toxic culture and unrealistic expectations, for so long that key team members are cracking under the stress and needing mental health breaks … does not say anything good about the upper management team. Even if this project by some miracle is able to meet its end point and deliver … something, that poor management is still going to be there. This isn’t a Brian problem, it’s something bigger.

        Your health and your quality of life are much more important than *anything* going on there. While your personal feelings about it – pride, dedication, wanting to finish it – aren’t necessarily bad, they causing you to ‘throw good money after bad’ Imagine if instead you looked at your future *without* this stress, without Brian pressuring you, without feeling responsible for delivering on a project where the people in charge set it up without enough resources, support or oversight to insure it would be successful. How would if feel to have that just *not* be your problem anymore, to not have to fight to have a healthy balance with work? What could you do that would give you as much or more satisfaction?

        And not to be all dramatic, I’ve known people who developed serious health issues as a result of sustained job stress, unhealthy work demands … and one who died suddenly as a result. You do NOT need to sacrifice your well-being at the altar of bad project management and poor corporate decision making. And based on your job market, there’s no need to stick it out, not even for one more day.

        2. MM*

          LW, please read this. Excessive stress can and will screw with your body to the point that you don’t fully recover from the next breakdown. Nothing they’re paying you and no project you care about is worth that big a slice of your future.

        3. Bird names*

          All of this. I was in a very similar situation and ended up rehashing lots of my workplace issues privately. At some point someone asked me: “If you could leave right this moment, how would you feel?”.
          The answer was such a pronounced feeling of relief that I saw the way forward (and out) for the first time in months.

        4. Good Lord Ratty*

          This. Brian’s behaviour and attitude is a symptom of a much larger systemic issue within the organization.

    4. Big Booty Latina*

      Big agree. Life is too short to ruin your health by subjecting yourself to this kind of stress.

    6. JSPA*

      Unless you can decide to not care about Brian (and if he’s close enough to being fired that the general misery will improve dramatically, with his departure, in short order).

    7. Sunk cost fallacy*

      This.

      In economics, this is known, rather cruelly, as the sunk cost fallacy, aka throwing good money after bad.

      Go now.

    9. allathian*

      Agree. This is very hard for conscientious people like the LW, but I think it’s time to cut your losses. You shouldn’t care more about the project than the C-suite does. Brian wouldn’t be allowed to Brian if they really cared.

    10. Flying Fish*

      Absolutely this. Dump this job! When you’re in a toxic situation, everything feels amplified, including the importance of the work where you are. They will manage without you, and you will flourish without them.

  2. 2 Cents*

    OP, this project may never be complete — it’ll get done at the expense of your mental health. It’s not worth it for a line item on your resume! If I was in your position, I’d stick to my agreed-upon hours, but be job searching — at least making recruiters or others aware that I’m in the market. Don’t make Brian’s failure to effectively lead this project your problem.

    1. Sloanicota*

      I agree that based on what you’re saying, OP, it’s just as likely the project will fall through as that you’ll eventually be on the other side of it glad you stuck it out. It’s hard to think you should stick it out when your own words are “toxic culture, inexperienced leadership, over-budget, understaffed.”

    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Came here to say this. OP, if this project is mismanaged so badly and Brian is so out of touch there is a good chance that the project never finishes.

      You cannot wear yourself out again only to be back at the same point — a chaotic project with no end in sight.

      At the very least, start your job search just in case it takes a little more than day to get a new job. You can always decide not to take a new job IF the project is actually moving forward.

      1. le sigh*

        I was once in a somewhat similar position and I accepted a job at another company. My then-boss first tried to counteroffer. When that failed, they asked me to stay an extra three weeks (then two weeks, then one) to finish the project I was on. Except that project had been extended twice in an industry notorious for this sort of thing, and the company I worked for was terrible. I did my duty, tied up lose ends, and never looked back.

    3. Daisy-dog*

      Yep. I just had a project fall through weeks before it was supposed to launch. I wasn’t dependent on it to stay in my job though. But it was still disappointing and I feel sad about it, even though it’s normal for a project to fall through.

    4. Antilles*

      It’s not worth it for a line item on your resume!
      I agree, but you’re not even losing the line item! You can still put the cool project on your resume, mine it for examples of “tell me about a time…” and talk about your part of the project. If anything, it’s probably more common for people to *not* see projects through for their entire cradle-to-grave duration than to stick it through all the way to the end.

      1. Username?*

        Omg I needed to hear this. Reading this was a combination light bulb/ facepalm so thank you.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        Seconding this. If you did a lot of work on the project, it can still belong on your resume even if you left before launch (or before failure-to-launch, as may be the case with this one). See if you can keep in touch with at least one valuable colleague; they can tell you the metrics on its success and you can recommend them to your new company.

        LW, when I was working at ToxicOldCompany I got really focused on my projects because everything else was awful and it was the only way to get through the day. (There was also a lot of “everyone’s depending on you, you have to step up and do this, no one else can!”) Then they fired me, and all those projects/teams went on without me. Don’t get stuck in that kind of thinking.

        Also, even if you apply to a job tomorrow and end up getting it, the whole interview process might take months. So start now, before you’re so burnt to a cinder you can’t put together a great resume or blow away an interviewer.

    5. EngineeringFun*

      Sunk cost fallacy. As an engineer I fell into this trap too. It’s better to be technically sound in multiple projects.

    6. WellRed*

      Project sounds like a hot mess and in not impressed with her grand boss who knows Brian is also a hot mess and chooses to not do anything about it.

    7. OP*

      The comments here and Alison’s advice is already so illuminating – I’ve already secured another job, and I’m looking to leave as soon as I secure a place back in my home city from this regional job. I’m so looking forward to a break after this.

  3. Observer*

    As usual, Alison’s advice is on the money.

    I want to highlight this piece:

    First, it’s not necessarily a bad idea to have a discreet conversation with your mentor. You said you’re worried about breaking chain of command, but (a) this is your mentor, so that’s less of a concern than it would be if you never talked to each other, and (b) since he already has significant concerns about Brian, he’d probably be pretty interested in hearing that Brian is actively in the process of messing up something additional

    There is nothing sacred about the chain of command. Yes, it’s there for a reason. But there is a reason why every well run company has ways to bypass it. And in this case you *should* bypass it. Brian is already known to be a problem. What you would be reporting would be *very* relevant information for his superiors to be aware of.

    So, I really agree that a discreet word with your mentor should be part of your game plan.

    1. Anonym*

      This. Excellent comment. This is precisely the type of situation that a good mentor can help you navigate. If there were concerns about chain of command, this person wouldn’t be mentoring you in the first place. It’s worth noting that many well run organizations have built in channels for execs to hear from people much lower in the organization (things like skip level meetings, reverse mentoring, etc.) so that they can get a clearer view of what’s going on without solely relying on middle managers, who may have their own agendas or biases. Your mentor can help you and will also appreciate knowing what’s going on.

      Brian sucks. Leverage your other work relationships to be a healthy person and a healthy contributor to the organization.

      1. Kyrielle*

        Yes. And your mentor is a great resource to ask about whether you and Sarah should be looking to get your accommodations/agreed-upon schedule on file with HR, for example, and what else might be a good way to navigate the situation with others in the organization at large.

    2. el l*

      Yes, and here’s how I’d approach the conversation: “You and I have spoken in the past about culture deficiencies – and I’d like to highlight one I saw for myself…”

      Don’t make the conversation about you, make it about a problem for them.

      End with, “What should the cultural expectation be like on work? And what would you recommend I – in my position – do if Brian leans on me?”

    3. OP*

      I actually did end up having a quiet chat with my mentor, and I’m glad I did. Brian’s been spoken to by our leadership team (including my mentor) but it’s just gotten worse with him onsite after he was spoken to. I get the sense they want him to close out this job and then he’s done, but I’m not waiting until then.

  4. MsM*

    I agree with Alison – it’s okay to let other people know Brian is being a problem, your mentor included. You’re not criticizing Sarah for not taking more direct action; if anything, this is an opportunity to give her credit for being supportive despite her hands being tied, too. But not only is Brian disregarding your well-being, he’s overstepping in ways that hurt the company, including making you feel like quitting might be the only solution. People who are in a position to do something about that should know.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      Hopefully the update is “harrassing an employee who just came back from a medical leave was the last straw and Brian is OUT.”

      1. ecnaseener*

        “Which I found out through the grapevine because I’m at a new job where no one yells or slams doors!” Brian is only one of the problem people at this job.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          “It’s amazing here, like night-and-day difference. The work is challenging, but just knowing that my manager is reasonable and treats me and my team like adults means I can leave work at work. The culture doesn’t put up with raised voices, much less yelling and slamming doors, and my manager went over the process she’d use if I were underperforming. It’s such a relief! I’m sleeping better, eating better, making plans with friends that I lost contact with. I’m so glad I didn’t try to stick it out until the end of that doomed project!”

      2. sparkle emoji*

        I wouldn’t be disappointed if that happens AND LW gets a new job as a bonus. Both are good.

  6. e271828*

    OP, the job will never love you back. The business as a whole doesn’t have feelings for you. Your employer (Brian) has made it very clear that your health and well-being are unimportant.

    Look for a new place and leave with two weeks’ notice. And no overtime meanwhile, please!

    1. HonorBox*

      The only place I disagree with you is that Brian seems to be the outlier. If Brian’s grandboss and OP’s direct boss are supportive, Brian is the problem. It seems like Sarah has OP’s back. Giving the mentor a heads up might protect both OP and Sarah from Brian doing something stupid.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Yes, there may be a way of salvaging this situation if someone with authority steps in and makes the needed changes. Though I imagine it’ll take some time. Brian may be the nexus of the problems, but there are other people around screaming and leaving meetings in a huff.

        It certainly can be worth a try. Though, LW, ask yourself the Sheelzebub Question (from a comment from Captain Awkward): “I suggest you think to yourself: Can I live with this for another month? Another year? Another five years? Ten years? The rest of my life?” What is the time by which you would need to see serious improvement before it’s time to conclude it’s a lost cause trying to make change?

        2. Venus*

          But that question doesn’t really apply to work – the timeline is pretty clearnly until the end of the project.

          1. MM*

            Yeah, but the point is the project can’t necessarily be expected to finish on schedule. In these conditions it seems very likely it’ll get pushed back, restarted, this, that, and the next, such that “till the project is finished” is not actually a defined span of time at all.

            Their point to OP is, where is *your* limit, not the project’s? Because the project’s timeline may end up being far beyond what OP has in mind as reasonable to stick around for, and as long as OP has that pegged to the project instead of her own plans, she’s likely to continue the sunk cost fallacy she’s in indefinitely.

            1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

              Yes, it’s about the LW’s limit for this nonsense, regardless of the project timelines. And specifically about whether it makes sense to try to push for change. Since there are some people around who seem very reasonable, it may make sense to at least try to take concerns to executives and give them the opportunity to take action. I’m suggesting that if the LW takes that route, she should also give some thought about how quickly she would need to see real change in order for it to make sense to stay. Basically, the LW decides (but doesn’t need to tell anyone!) that things need to dramatically improve in the next 2 months or she’s out.

          2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

            I’m imagining that the LW may have to deal with Brian beyond this particular project. Like, when this one is finally done, the LW is going to get assigned to another project.

            And ad MM said, the timeline for the project is probably at risk, given what the LW says about the dysfunction and toxicity of the team.

      2. jasmine*

        Between the team members yelling and slamming doors, and how long this has been allowed to go on (months, according to the OP), Brian is definitely not the only issue

      3. MigraineMonth*

        Unfortunately, the fact that Brian has been allowed to Brian this long while creating a toxic slush of mismanagement where employees are yelling and slamming doors makes me think this is only the tip of the iceberg.

        Hopefully I’m wrong and Brian is swiftly ousted! But after one breakdown, I wouldn’t wait around and chance a second.

        1. Hannah Lee*

          Yup!

          The way the OP described it, this project was set up to be a disaster from the get go:
          understaffed and with inexperienced leadership. AND they’ve let it barrel along out of control and over budget with a toxic environment. It’s like they planned for the competent, dedicated members of the team to give their all and make up for those bad decisions … and they didn’t change course even after things started to come apart.

          Brian and the toxic pressure on this project are a *symptom* of bigger issues.

    2. BellaStella*

      OP read this, I agree here. Start looking for a better job. Talk to your mentor as noted above. Protect your health and well being. Do not let the bad management make you ill.

    3. goddessoftransitory*

      The evidence is right there in Brian’s mixed messages: “You HAVE to stay 24-7 for this project or it’s doomed and if you don’t you’re fired!” Well, either you’re needed 24-7 or, apparently, not at all, since if you’re gone you won’t be working on said project, right? Which is it, Brian?

      It may be true, as other commenters pointed out, that this place/project may be salvageable, but that’s up to your great-grandboss and the rest of the management team. You burning out, again, and causing more damage to your mind, heart and health? Will not do anything towards that goal.

  7. HonorBox*

    First and foremost, OP, stick to your hours. Your direct boss is OK with it, and you say that there’s nothing that the additional hours will do to help the project along. Hold strong on that. If there’s some sort of blowback, a) let it come through Sarah and b) you can have your eye on a job elsewhere.

    Second, go to your mentor. This isn’t breaking the chain of command. Also, he might have some advice/insight for how to navigate this. Plus, if he’s seeing issues with Brian, he will want to know this. You’re not going to someone’s boss’s boss with an unsolicited complaint. You have an established relationship. And if you’re really concerned about the optics, you can frame this as “I just got back from a much-needed mental health break and need your thoughts on how to approach what I walked into.” Not a complaint. You’re seeking advice. And he’s probably going to want to know that someone who is well thought of is ready to walk out for any reason, but especially if the reason is that there’s someone forcing overtime for no reason that ultimately benefits the project.

    1. Sara without an H*

      Well said. And OP, unless you know that HR is actively incompetent, you need to talk to them about the possibility that you’re going to be harassed for taking medical leave. As HonorBox said, phrase it as a request for advice.

      1. A Gentle Reader*

        While I think the OP talking to her mentor and HR is worth doing, I’d still plan to leave asap. Relying on other colleagues to run interference with Brian is a strategy that’s going to fail very quickly. Here’s why I think so: He’s so bad at so many things, senior staff undoubtedly know what a mess he is and the messes he creates. But they are thinking staff will handle it somehow. It’s easier for higher ups to think it’ll magically be okay than do the work of getting rid of him, cleaning up his messes, and hiring a decent PM. They may be kind and sympathetic people who don’t want to the OP to leave, but they are keeping Brian at the expense of everyone who has to work with him. He should have been shown the door long ago, and they could have done it. They should be horrified that he’s STILL wreaking havoc on their watch.

        1. Sara without an H*

          Oh, I don’t disagree at all! OP should definitely be looking for another job. But job searches always take longer than you’d like, and it won’t hurt to line up as much local support as they can get, just to make life more tolerable until something better turns up.

          That said, I’m troubled by the OP’s commitment to finishing the project, no matter how bad things get. This kind of excessive conscientiousness is rarely in the employee’s best interests.

          And you’re absolutely right that the apparent unwillingness to show Brian the door indicates that all is not well with management in this organization.

  8. Ulla*

    I quit a toxic workplace similar to this one, OP, in May 2018. My boss actually said to me, but “Project X is implementing in July. You’ve been working on this for 3 years. Don’t you want to see it launch?”

    Guess what? 2 years after I quit, it still wasn’t launched. Don’t wait — start looking now and leave. There is a better place for you somewhere else and not in the same org with Brian.

    1. pally*

      Exactly!

      OP, decide on a timeline for yourself. Give the project a reasonable time limit after which, you will embark on a job hunt. Maybe include some interim ‘check-in’ dates where you assess whether project completion is going to be a reality. If not, cut to the chase and job hunt.

      Some projects simply never end.

    2. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      +1 million. A former company of mine had a large project involving migrating all their branches onto the same ERP platform. The final holdout branch was slated for the last phase of the project, which had a timeline of 6 weeks. That phase launched 2.5 years ago, and guess who is still using their old ERP platform? (I still keep in touch with my old manager from that company, and she keeps me updated on the drama.)

      No work project is worth your peace and sanity. Look out for yourself first.

    3. Sara without an H*

      This. Given the level of mismanagement you describe, OP, the project may still crash and burn, and nothing you can do will save it. You sound like an expert at bailing, but you need to consider whether it’s time to just get into the nearest life boat.

    4. Antilles*

      Even if it had launched on time in July, would your life have been substantially improved by waiting those extra 3 months till it launched? Would the temporary feeling of “high fives all around, implementation day is today!!!” have been in any way worth it?

      Also worth noting: Most projects don’t have a clear and defined end date. Yes we successfully clicked the button to implement the new accounting system and that’s a cool milestone, but approximately five minutes later you enter the equally stressful portion of answering approximately 9,000 questions from confused users on the new system.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        In my experience, the launch of a project is practically its beginning, not its end. I was assigned to a project on a crazy-short timeline with 3 months for design and 3 months for development. The entire following year involved major fixes. Now they’ve decided the design process went wrong and they want to start over again.

        Get out now!

    5. goddessoftransitory*

      “I’d LIKE to, yeah. But I have the feeling I’ll be seeing Santa Claus before I see this happen.”

    6. OP*

      I’m in construction, and we’re on track to finish late but this side of cup weekend (early November) so far. I’m job seeking anyway, and I’m out as soon as I can move back home to the city from this regional hellhole I’ve been living in for the last couple of years!

  9. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    If one person not working a bunch of OT is enough to push the project “into further distress,” there are bigger problems with how the project is being staffed and run. Either Brian is bad at his job, he’s getting unreasonable demands from above, or both. (He’s definitely bad at his job). Heck, all of your terrible, counterproductive meetings are probably causing way more problems than the LW working 7-5 (which is already a long day in my book).

    The three things to balance in any project are resourcing (money, people, etc.), timelines, and scope (which includes expectations about quality). If you’re not resourcing properly, timelines and/or scope become an issue. This is Project Management 101.

    1. Antilles*

      Seriously, I burst out laughing when I read that. If your project is in distress because one person is choosing to work normal hours, then you’re not doing your job as PM.
      In this case, the answer is almost certainly linked to “he has no idea what people do all day” and his apparent refusal to discipline anybody.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        100%. You need to create a lot more structure and accountability *and* communicate up about the risks and issues. Can the deadline be extended? Can some parts of the project / features of the deliverable be dropped or postponed? Can the organization assign more people to take on parts of the project that are suffering? Though I’m assuming that the company will want to sort out the obvious problems and see where things are at before making major adjustments. Still, you’ve got to tell decision-makers about this stuff. Better now than at the 11th hour, when it’s too late to do anything about it.

        1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          In that last sentence, you = the PM. It’s part of the job to have those difficult conversations with executives where you warn them about problems that are happening or which may happen (provided you aren’t going to get your head bitten off for doing it). This isn’t referring to the LW, necessarily.

        2. OP*

          I totally agree with you – it’s honestly so obvious and basic that everyone else in the team can see what’s happening, but our PM has his head in the sand. The deadline is hard (it’s a construction job we have to hand over on time or eat $200k+ per day in liquidated damages), but it’s also come to light Brian has been fudging reports for months on this job to make it look better than it is. So, senior management aren’t aware of the scale or scope of exactly how bad the job is or the culture is. Fun!!

    2. Awkwardness*

      If one person not working a bunch of OT is enough to push the project “into further distress,” there are bigger problems with how the project is being staffed and run.

      I literally gasped when I came across the amount of guilt tripping. The audacity!

      Try to loop in HR and/or your mentor according to AAM advice, as Brian obviously has no good sense of boundaries and it is not clear how long Sarah might be able to protect you and your boundaries. It gives me pause that he immediately went to talk to her after you said so.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        I know, right! Like, this really shows everyone how Brian operates.

        And good point about Sarah. It sounds like she’s doing her best, but it’s not a good long-term solution. If I was the mentor, I’d want to know. I’d want to know if my mentee was being treated badly. I’d also want to know that the project is going off the rails.

  10. bamcheeks*

    Two weeks off is a really, REALLY short time when you’re burnt out. Two weeks is “just starting to think clearly and believe that it might be possible to get back to normal”. If you get any thing other than significant and heavily-supported change at this point, things will get considerably worse very rapidly.

    It’s great that Sarah is supporting you, and that Brian’s style of management is out of step with the broader company norms, but if you get *any* more interference from Brian, you should assume that Sarah and the the organisation are *unable* to protect you from Brian’s bad vibes, and act accordingly. Maybe they can, but if he comes near you again I would take that as a sign that even though Sarah is good and the broader company is good, Brian’s area of it is too eff’d up to be a safe working environment.

      1. Ally McBeal*

        Fellow elder millennial here – I took January through October off one year, after burning out really hard at a golden-handcuffs job with toxic management, and I still sometimes think I didn’t fully recover from said burnout. Am I functioning well at my current job, sure, but that old job (which wasn’t even my highest-stress job – the one I had before that one literally caused shingles to activate in my body!) seems to have robbed me of the satisfaction and motivation I used to get from working.

        1. 2 Cents*

          I’m sorry you had that experience. I was laid off last year from a job that I thought I’d keep for another 5-10 years :/ Once I was given the boot, I realized that my back pain that had plagued me for years finally went away. My teeth grinding issue did too. Even though I was unemployed, I felt “lighter” than ever. I am working contract jobs, but yeah, the spark and sense of accomplishment is gone. I can’t tell if I’m jaded, not in the right line of work, my priorities have truly shifted that drastically, or if I need to afford more time to just decompress.

        2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Yeah, I should say it took 3 months to start really feeling better. This was after I finished my PhD. My last year was BRUTAL, for a bunch of reasons I won’t get into. Finished in mid-September and it was well into December before I started to get bored with doing very little.

          1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

            Like you, I think the experience has done real damage to my motivation, especially when it comes to being proactive about stuff. I’m good at my job, I get things done, my bosses are happy with me, but I’m not performing like I could be.

      1. Sara without an H*

        And any project that requires human sacrifices should send people running for the exits.

      2. ThatOtherClare*

        Yep. Nobody can single-handedly save something bigger than themselves, nor should they be guilt-tripped into attempting to do so.

    2. goddessoftransitory*

      This, honestly? sounds like something you hear in a cult.

      Brian may truly believe it, but, OP, you do not have to drink this poison.

    1. Grumpus*

      Exactly. You really have to strike while the iron is hot and the jobs are plentiful, and secure the best combination of pay and conditions you can. Otherwise, you might find that you’re stuck in a bad job with little other choice. I also worry that 7am – 5pm is a recipe for another burn out. If the job market is hopping, could OP find one with shorter hours?

      1. OP*

        Sadly I’m in construction so those are actually decent hours for my type of job – the next place I’m looking at jumping to is about 7.30-5ish, which is definitely better. The pay is good, but not good enough to deal with Brian and stick around until ungodly hours of the night.

    1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      About? Being a generically and toxic terrible boss is not against any employment laws.

      1. Junior Dev (now mid level)*

        Pressuring hourly workers to work off the clock can be, though! If they actually succeed at it, it’s wage theft.

      2. A Pocket Lawyer*

        Not an employment lawyer, but it would be wise for OP to talk to one about the best way to get on record with HR about the need to stay within specified working hours due to a documented medical condition in the event that Brian decides to fire him for “not working enough”. (I’m fairly certain that working “only” ten hours a day is a reasonable accommodation.) If everything is properly documented and Brian retaliates or fires him, he’d potentially have a claim against the company (at least in the US).

  14. I have opinions...*

    It sounds like her boss, and her grand-grand-boss are good people. I’d stick to my boundaries unless grand-boss makes it too unbearable. Sounds like he may be managed out of the project rather than anyone else.

  15. Anonymous cat*

    LW, you said your working overtime won’t really solve the problems with the project.
    I wonder if he’s the kind of person who deals with anxiety by trying to transfer it to other people.

    Big problem -> make you run in circles -> he feels better.

    You calmly working on something-> his anxiety increases because you’re not running in circles-> tries to make you do more so he feels like the team is “doing something “

    I’m glad your direct boss has your back and hope he doesn’t retaliate.

  16. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    Do it all – talk to the mentor, talk to HR and start looking. But look eyes open. I am concerned that with hours of 7-5 being the “norm” for your industry that simply jumping ship might not solve the root problem – that the industry is toxic. -From someone who went from bad job to heavily toxic job in a toxic industry and ended up quitting the entire industry.

    1. Not the class clown*

      This! 7am-5pm as an accepted norm (or more like accepted minimum, it sounds like), and requiring Saturdays on top of that is at least potentially on the table? Yikes! Very curious what industry this is.

      1. I Have RBF*

        I had a job at a software startup that required 10 hour days, including Saturdays. I was contract hourly, so it worked – I cleared $100k that year. They wanted me to come on salary at $70k, with worse benefits than the contract agency, FFS, and then were shocked when I said no. They then replaced me with two younger men, for more money, neither of which lasted more than six months.

        So startup software development has that kind of long slog death marches for years at a time. It sucks.

      2. OP*

        Construction! The pay is very good, my take home is $110k + bonus, and I can do the hours – just not when I don’t need to, and not with this PM. And I’ve moved regional for this job, which sucks so much worse than I thought. I grew up in this general regional area and it’s still terrible.

  17. Delta Delta*

    Bye, Brian!

    That’s what you say when you land that new job tomorrow, because Brian and his hive of Brian-Bees isn’t going to change and he doesn’t seem to care that this is destroying your health.

  18. Hermione Danger*

    Earlier this year, I left a job where “work flat out all the time and maybe work a little harder for a few more hours to prove you’re valuable despite all those award-winning projects and happy clients” was the message from upper leadership.

    There was some upheaval in the chain of command because leadership didn’t like the way my boss was handling things–aka supporting balance and fighting for the things my team needed to be successful–so they removed him and replaced him with two other people. Those people had my back, and honestly, were even better than the previous boss at recognizing what the team needed, but upper leadership clearly didn’t like the messaging that my team was made up of humans, not machines who could output at 110% all of the time with no need for rest or development time.

    So I left.

    Because a place where leadership wants to work you to death is not a healthy place to stay, and things are never going to change there. Even if you love your colleagues and your projects.

  19. Cat Tree*

    You’ve already said that Brian has no idea what anyone is doing. So if you just work your normal hours, would he even know? There’s something liberating when problematic employees don’t get any active management, because the same applies to you. If you enforce your boundaries, what are they gonna do about it? You have the power here. Heck, do even less and spend your extra time searching for a better job. I usually feel like the term “quiet quitting” gets overused, but it’s relevant here. Cut your work way back and just collect a paycheck until you move onto something better.

    Of course there are some risks. Previous high performers are often held to a higher standard. But you know you could easily get another job, so it’s probably worth it.

  20. Lady Blerd*

    OP, don’t let the sunk cost fallacy hold you back. Get out of there ASAP because I suspect that Brian holds a lot of sway. There will be other projects for you to leave your mark on. Do what’s best for you. Good luck!

  21. TheBunny*

    OP you say you can easily find a new job…I’d do exactly that.

    I get being invested in your work, that’s a good thing…but your mental health matters more.

    I recently left a job I’d only been at for about a year because of a truly toxic manager. One that absolutely was impacting my mental health. Now that I’m out, and it’s been a while, I’m not sure why I stayed as long as I did.

    I did have some sadness about leaving the company when I learned that the toxic micromanager had resigned… but not enough to make me want to go back and leave the new job I found, even being new (yesterday was my 90 even though that whole 90 day thing doesn’t mean much aside from now I accrue PTO) so I would at leave consider that for your mental health leaving might be the best option.

  22. Parenthesis Guy*

    What worries me about this letter are these two things aside from the obvious problem.

    The first is that the industry standards are to work 7-5. If it’s standard to work 50 hour weeks, then I’m wondering whether the OP will be able to find any job in the industry that isn’t stressful. If so, maybe it makes sense to stay at a place where your boss and great-great grandboss have your back.

    The second is that not only is Brian a mess, but there are a whole bunch of other team members that are underperforming (he has no clue what everyone below him does all day) or the ones who fly off the handle (yelling, slamming doors, walking out of meetings). Is this something that gets fixed if Brian starts doing his job? You seem to think so, but does he have the power to kick people off a contract or fire them? Do people typically fly off the handle in this industry? If so, I’d worry about staying in. Maybe you can get another job, but why will it be better then this one?

    One last note. I’d be unhappy if I was your mentor and you quit before talking to me due to someone that you knew I had concerns about. Maybe I wouldn’t be able to fix the issue, but I’d want to be given a shot to do so.

    1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I completely agree with your last paragraph. If I were OP’s mentor, I would want very much to hear this and to be given the opportunity to try to change the situation. Even if I couldn’t, this information about Brian is something I would certainly want to know. And as to your other points? I think Brian not knowing what people are doing is a Brian problem. People slamming doors and so forth? Maybe they’re reacting to Brian’s treatment of them. We don’t know.

    2. OP*

      I did speak to my mentor and they were… not happy with Brian and deeply concerned that I’d leave.

      People flying off the handle and yelling is pretty normal – I’m in construction with a builder so the work culture is pretty different to a standard office job. That particular person is well out of line vs the accepted norm in this company office though! I can deal with a lot of directness and intensity, but not when it crosses the line to personal attacks or abuse.

  23. Reebee*

    “Your mental health is more important than seeing out a project,” says Alison.

    ^^^^^^That is the ball to keep your eye on, OP. That right there.^^^^^^^

  24. kanada*

    OP, you’re worried about retaliation, but what is the worse case scenario here if you just ignore him? He fires you? You already said you’re “happy to quit” anyway. Work whatever hours you need to to maintain your health and if Brian decides he has enough of a problem with that to get you fired, so be it.

    1. Alan*

      The worst case scenario I think is that he regularly yells at and abuses the OP. That’s likely to do the most damage to their mental health I would guess.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        In that case, the LW could quit. I think kanada’s comment is that Brian’s ability to really harm the LW is limited because she can walk away at any time. Including using Alison’s scripts from past answers about how the LW is happy to work out the notice period, but is prepared to make today her last day if Brian is unable to treat her with basic respect.

      2. OP*

        That’s happening now actually! It’s miserable. We can all see it’s wrong and I have the backing of the team, but I only spoke to HR yesterday. But, no real changes to Brian’s behaviour despite senior leadership “having conversations with him”, so I sent HR my notes from all of the incidents and we’ll see where that goes.

  25. Pizza Rat*

    I’m so glad Sarah has your back. Still, if you’re worried Brian is going to retaliate, I think you’re better off out of there. Since he’s Sarah’s boss, he may decide to override her.

    I agree with others who have suggested talking to your mentor. Ideally, he’s going to understand that you are going to be able to do a better job if you take care of your health and can have a word with Brian.

    Brian is a problem. He’s not managing the project work and it sounds like while he has the authority, he lacks influence on the team (which is the opposite of the PM on most projects!). He needs to get his act together and I doubt he can do it before you can find a new position.

  26. Sparkles McFadden*

    I say this here often: It doesn’t hurt to look around and see what other jobs might be available. Maybe you’ll find something great, or maybe you’ll think “Eh, I’m pretty good where I am right now.”

    My vote is to talk with your mentor, loop in HR about the steps that need to be taken to protect your health…and then start looking. Life without Brian is a good goal to have.

  27. Festively Dressed Earl*

    OP, how long have you been at this job, and how long has Brian been your grandboss? Were the times you weren’t working under Brian (if any) less stressful? If Brian is the root of the toxic culture and he’s on the radar to get axed, your problem might be solved before the annual pumpkin spice outbreak. If he’s just a symptom or if your mental health takes another hit, leave immediately.

      1. Anonymous cat*

        Earl is joking that the problem might be solved by October when the American stores start selling foods flavored with pumpkin spice.

        However the stores seem to have moved the date to August.

        1. Festively Dressed Earl*

          Yep. I’m optimistically hoping that if LW wrote this a month ago, the trash will have taken himself out before another month goes by. I left out the part about LW knowing whether to stay or go by the time the kids are trick-or-treating.

      2. Jerusha*

        I think it’s an implied (short) timeline. But if so, you’re too late – I’ve already started seeing pumpkin spice stuff in the grocery store.

        1. Cinn*

          I lost Whamaggedon this year already, in May.

          And I’m really hoping that my theory that the taxi driver in question had just downloaded a best of 80s compilation and hadn’t bothered to remove the Christmas songs is true. XD

        2. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          This ad seriously follows me around the internet. Their algorithm is definitely not working well — I’m Jewish, have no interest in Christmas, actively hate Christmas music, and don’t watch much TV. Oh, and I’m 99% ace/aro so the “hard-bitten businesswoman who somehow is only 27 with perfect abs goes back to her rural hometown after a breakup and falls for salt of the earth guy who also has perfect abs” storyline doesn’t do much for me.

          1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

            Nesting fail-ish. The Hallmark Christmas Movies ad follows me around the internet.

    3. OP*

      Oh, the problem will be solved by cup weekend (we don’t have much pumpkin spice in Aus :( ) because we hand the building over to the client by then! I called my great grandboss – my ops manager – yesterday after Brian had another go at me. He’s onsite today and has scheduled a meeting for him and I about “OP’s next career steps” because they’re so desperate to keep me. I don’t think I can stay with the company, but he wants to see if they can pay my moving expenses, get me started on the next project, when’s the soonest they can pull me from this project, all of that. So that’s nice to know.

      1. Festively Dressed Earl*

        (((literally did a fist pump at my desk)))
        I’m toasting you with a cup of non-pumpkin-spice coffee from the U.S. right now. It’s heartening to know something’s being done, even if it is too little too late to keep you there, and whatever you do next is going to be epic. Update us please?

  28. AnonymousOctopus*

    Get out get out get out. My soon-to-be-ex workplace is similar to yours, including a sane and good direct manager but crap/abusive grandbosses allowed to run amuck. I had been sticking it out for years for a variety of reasons despite being in demand elsewhere, but once I’d had enough I found a better job and was hired in a week and a half. Ten days!!

    If you’re in a system that made you sick, you aren’t going to be able to heal while inside the same system. You might be able to avoid getting worse, but you sure as heck won’t recover. Take care of yourself. If Brian is still running the project, it’s not going to magically right itself and see completion in a reasonable time frame. Take care of yourself first!

  29. I take tea*

    You are “only” working 7-5? You do ten hours a day and this guy think it’s not enough? No wonder you are burnt out! Honestly, just don’t do any more, I’d even say do less, as he apparently doesn’t have a clue anyway what anyone does.

  30. Hydrates all the flasks*

    “and he’s already on Brian’s case about his performance and the project culture, so I feel like that’s breaking chain of command to ask him for advice. I’m hesitant to get HR involved.”

    Okay, I feel like I was missing something here. OP’s mentor sounds like a good’un and is already keeping an eye on Brian, their own underling for the same behavior that everyone else dislikes in Brian??? But OP doesn’t want to go to the mentor about this??? Or give a heads up to HR????

    Also, I didn’t see anything in the letter about this being a military situation so like, “chain of command” isn’t really something that is suddenly sacrosanct here. Especially given the specific circumstances.

    IDK, just like, stop protecting Brian and go rat his hide out to the mentor and HR already (and I’m being facetious when I say to rat him out–it’s not even tattling, it’s just informing the people who need to know).

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Yes, why are you protecting Brian when he doesn’t give a shite about damaging your health?
      Tell your mentor! It’s great to have the big guns on your side and he may be able to rein in Brian, transfer or sack him, which would solve your problem.
      Stick to your guns, rat hm out and prioritise your health, especially if the worst case is losing a job you say you could easily replace.

  31. Applebaum*

    This really sticks out to me: “Working more hours won’t solve the project’s problems.” So many managers and companies think it will. It almost never does.

    1. allathian*

      Working more hours doesn’t necessarily mean getting any more productivity out of a person, at least not if you care at all about quality.

      People generally vastly overestimate how much brainwork they actually do per day. If you nominally work for 8 hours, actual productivity is somewhere between 5 and 6.5 hours.

      1. Sleve*

        It’s not even a ‘soft’ limitation you can push through, it’s a hard limitation. A human brain can only form thoughts using the chemicals it’s stored up during the sleep process. Once you’ve used your daily allocation of productivity you’re stuck on autopilot systems intended for not much more than keeping you alive. Once you’ve had a sleep to refresh the tank you’re good to go and you can do some more productive cognitive work. Otherwise you can stand there with the tap open as long as you like, aint nothing going to come out though.

        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          While still practicing law, I tried to explain to one of the more reasonable partners that I was not going to produce high-quality legal writing after 10+ hours. His response: “You’ll get your second wind around hour 12!” To this day, 15 years later I don’t know if he was messing with me or not. Maybe his energy levels had really rebounded like this when he was an associate?

  32. Pete*

    The LW writer is in a position (support of boss and grand-grand boss and good hiring market) to actually tell Brian to do his job and quit harassing them. (ok this has always been a dream of mine and not actual advice)

  33. Czech Mate*

    I was just talking to someone who recently retired. She said, “My biggest professional regret is that I always stayed with the wrong companies for far too long.”

  34. K in Boston*

    Boy, this hits close to home, for multiple reasons: pretty miserable on a project, felt pretty confident about being able to find another job, grandboss was notoriously difficult, almost took two weeks off for mental health (but left before that came to fruition). But a big one is: I really wanted to see through the project I was on. In my industry there are standard implementation projects that are considered A Big Deal, and the dates for them don’t move that much because we’re talking nine-figure projects where launching one day later than planned is a difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars. It’s not all that uncommon in our industry to get asked in a job interview how many of these projects you’ve seen from beginning to end. So while it’s not necessarily a reason to sacrifice yourself, I do think in this case, a “project” may be a more significant career impact than what some people think of when they hear that word.

    I thought a lot about whether I should at least stick it out for the project or not. What it came down to for me was: What do I expect to be different after the project is over?

    I realized that my equivalent of Brian was the source of my stress, not just in interacting with him directly but with the regular chaotic fallout of the decisions he handed down. I would still need to deal with Brian after the project, because he’d still be my grandboss. And also: I didn’t like working on implementation projects! I’d worked on several at the start of my career and found that I was much happier working on post-implementation projects. Which is to say that while finishing an implementation project would look good on my resume, the only thing it really would’ve mattered for is if I wanted to go on to do more implementation projects…which I didn’t. So why was I sticking around working for this guy who was a constant source of stress, on a project I didn’t want to do, that might lead to opportunities I didn’t want to take, if I had other options?

    So I left. I’m now making more money than before and doing more interesting work while being waaaaaaaaaay less stressed. I’d gotten so used to carrying a base amount of stress that it wasn’t until I left that I could physically feel the burden that had been removed. Multiple people told me that I seemed like I had more energy and was a lot happier. Even my husband said I’d become much nicer to him (which is admittedly a little sad, as well as a wake-up call to how much I’d allowed the stress of my previous job to radiate to others in my life).

    I don’t know all the variables in your situation, and of course can’t tell the future. For all we know, Brian could win the lottery tomorrow, quit, and the Messiah of project managers/grandbosses swoops in and makes everything better. But I’d encourage you to look at all the information you have and consider what’s likely waiting for you after you cross the finish line — and if whatever that is, is even something you want.

    2. OP*

      This is so eye opening, thank you. I was talking to the project director of my next job ($2B+ package of work with a complex services component I get to help deliver) and he wanted to make sure I’d finish my current job *first* and was happy to know I’d stick out out to the end. Leaving mid-project is bad for your career in construction, but personally I think I’ll be okay based on how hot the market is and the current circumstances.

  35. Dido*

    Brian needs to get a life, only a really sad and pathetic person would slave like that for a company that doesn’t care about him

    2. goddessoftransitory*

      He really does come across as a character in a terrible teen comedy who is convinced that unless he gets into Harvard/attends the prom with Pretty Girl/gets a car his entire life will implode, and drags everyone around him into his whirlwind.

  36. Stuart Foote*

    I am curious if Brian what the company structure is–very often, project managers are part of a matrix structure where they get employees assigned to them, but don’t actually oversee that employee aside from how they relate to the project. (I wonder if the LW called Brian her “grand-boss” for simplification purposes). If Brian isn’t technically in the LW’s chain of command, that makes me think even more that it is worth reaching out to the mentor to see if he can rein in Brian or get LW assigned to another project.

    Still, if this project is typical of the company’s projects as a whole, all the commenters saying get out are probably right.

    1. OP*

      PM is a big title in my industry, they have say in hires/fires, but they manage the construction jobs themselves, so he’s in my chain of command. They’re long (2-5 year) projects, too, and being a PM leads to a kind of god complex to be honest! It leads to these weird micro bubbles within a builder where every project team is siloed from each other (as they’re on different job sites) and it can be a huge culture clash when project teams get mixed together for the next job.

  37. Pyanfar*

    I did want to point out that she said the project is a toxic mess, not the company AND that Brian’s behavior is clearly outside of the company’s current culture and norms. So leaving right away might throw her into a company full of bees, not just one project. It always takes more time than it should, but, companies do remove Brians from projects and let the better culture and norms flow back in.

  38. River*

    If I was you and this was taking a toll on my health, I personally wouldn’t care about breaking the chain of command and going to your grand-grand boss. Plus, if Brian would retaliate, you mentioned you could get a new job tomorrow anyway. If you think your grand-grand boss would be open to this conversation, I say go for it. Nothing in this world is worth jeopardizing your health.

  39. NurseThis*

    When I was dickering over retirement, I realized I was very attached to the work I had produced. The company rigidity (no Flex Time ever, 60 hour weeks) was harder and harder to tolerate. After I did retire I was amazed at how little I even thought or cared about the prior big projects.

    Take care of you.

  40. Anon for this*

    The day I realized I could say to a supervisor , “Please don’t make me retire” was a very very empowering day.

    1. Alan*

      Yeah. I finally had had enough at work, my wife encouraged me to retire, and it was profoundly empowering to just tell everyone I was leaving.

  41. Union Rep*

    If the industry standard is 10-hour days starting at 7 am, you don’t just need a new job, you need a new industry.

  42. Alan*

    I’ve been in a couple toxic environments, one of which I left abruptly and the other of which I stayed in to see my project to completion. I just want to say that it’s not always clear at the time how much damage you’re doing to your mental and physical health by staying. In the first case, where I actually left, I didn’t realize until afterward how much stress I had really been under due to yelling and threats from my supervisor. Once I left it actually hit me and it took some therapy to recover from, more than I would have expected. The second time, when I did stay, I announced my departure for the date when my project was supposed to be over, and when the project got delayed, I left anyway. This time too found that it took months for me to recover from severe burnout. “Two weeks” is nothing. I would really encourage the OP to strongly consider simply leaving, and if possible, taking more time off before starting a new job. It’s simply not possible in my experience to understand the full damage that you’re doing to your mind and body while you’re in the middle of things.

  43. Boof*

    Sounds like you have everyone’s* permission to ignore Brian – I’d say tell him to fly a kite, but that’d probably be more bite than necessary. “I prefer not to” full Bartleby.
    *your line-manager boss Sarah; probably your mentor who apparently thinks Brian is sus already and probably likes you; Allison and of course, the internet.
    Feel free to look around as well while you’re waiting to see if Brian eventually gets managed out or is only the tip of the iceberg / manages to melt the place down.

  44. Anon for this*

    Wow. This whole topic has me taking notes. I’m in the middle of a similar situation and this is helping me see things more clearly, even though my friends and family have been saying the same things for awhile.

  45. Peanut Hamper*

    I gave two weeks notice at my last job. Then the boss asked for three weeks, so I upped it to three weeks. We scrambled to interview and hire someone, and I decided to stick around long enough to set this person up for success. Boss and sub-boss screwed around with this person, assigning them duties that were not originally part of the job. Exit person 1.

    Hired person 2. They started out well, then boss and sub-boss fucked around with this person and they left.

    Hired person 3. The same thing happend.

    I finally realized that boss and sub-boss were never going to get their acts together and find a suitable replacement me for me. I put myself out there, got another job with a start date three weeks out, put in my two weeks notice and left.

    They kept fucking around; I figured it was time for them to find out.

    LW, your situation sounds very similar to mine. If you can easily find a job elsewhere, please do so.

  47. A Gentle Reader*

    Please just leave. I’ve been in your situation: I was struggling but also very committed to our mission and many of my colleagues, and I was proud of work that I did. It was hard to let go, but once I had, I realized I should have left much sooner. The fact that you can survive the job doesn’t mean that you should keep the job. Profound job toxicity does permanent damage. It’s cumulative and you may not discover it for awhile. You don’t owe them your brain cells, your energy, and your spirit.

  48. JPalmer*

    Finishing this project sounds like a reasonable risk of Burnout or unhealthy work environment. Sarah sounds solid, but she might get overruled by someone who has bad priorities. That brings burnout/unhealthy environment back into play. Is finishing this project worth any of the following:

    – Future job is 10-50% harder for 3 to 18 months?
    – Receiving toxic treatment at work for the remaining duration?
    – Needing to take multiple months off to heal after leaving this job?

    Unless there is a big financial incentive (and even then), it feels not a worthy risk.

    I’d say don’t compromise and keep working healthy at your own rate. If it gets unhealthy or toxic, you walk. It doesn’t seem like Brian is someone who will respect the soft power that you can walk. I’d job hunt now while working at a comfortable pace.

  49. Lizcase*

    I’ve been there. Stress leave turned into months off and several chronic illnesses.
    I had to push back a LOT on extra hours and work, and when called on it, my response was “Do you want me to work or be on disability? cause overworking again will result in me being permanently disabled. ” it’s like you get this much of me or you get nothing.

    I’m happy to say that I’m now in a job that really respects work/life balance, and even when it was all hands on deck to deal with a major issue, my manager still reminded us to keep track of extra hours to get paid OT.

  50. judyjudyjudy*

    Don’t put yourself in a mental trap that means you *have* to stay at this job, by wanting to see this project through, despite the many, many, many issues at work. All the power of being able to find another position tomorrow is eliminated if you tell yourself you can’t leave until the project is done. This is textbook sunk cost fallacy.

    You might get some satisfaction in seeing the project through (if it ever ends!) but I bet you’ll get a lot of satisfaction from the peace that comes with a more functional and respectful work environment.

    Very best of luck.

  51. Bruce*

    Wow, this flashes me back to the job I had in the 90s where Saturday “face-time” was mandatory and the micromanaging co-owner + executive VP was always stirring stuff up. My boss tried to keep him out of our business and had some success because the VP did not have the experience in our product line that we’d been hired to start up, but the team that was under his close control were always miserable. The difference here is that he did know what he was doing in his own field, he was just a pushy toxic manager about it.

  52. The other sage*

    > Don’t get so focused on “must stay” that you miss signs that you’d be better off leaving.

    This so much! I wish I couldd embroider this sentence and then send it to past-self!

    As someone else has already said, staying in a company that makes you sick can leave you with permanent health problems.

  53. alas rainy again*

    #3 Wonderful advice by Alison as always! As a long-time lurker and very occasionl poster, I dare add another point of view, regarding this aspect of the issue: “Recently I had a question for this mentee. He had accepted a job at an agency I cross paths with very infrequently, and I thought he could provide me very general information on a topic. Instead, he immediately discussed billing my agency for work over 30 minutes, and even mentioned an unwarranted inspection of my facility. ”

    This makes me wonder whether your mentee could have been hired by a public agency supervising your industry. Those have *very* strict rules regarding corruption, and those rules would have be sternly stated to your mentee a part of his onboarding. Tipping former professional relations is frowned upon. Your description of your request could enter that grey zone between friendly conversation and sharing insider information. Your mentee might have delicately -albeit too delicately- reframed what your request was appearing to be, with the billing remark. The inspection remark might even be a discreet attempt to tip you, as opposed to bratty ungratefulness. In case your mentee indeed is now a public servant, I don’t have enough information on the context and tone of the conversation -from both sides- to distinguish between request for pulic vs insde information on your side, and ungratefulness vs prudent self-protection against the appearance of corruption on his side. Those requests are especially difficult to handle from newbies public servants. I wish you both a serene conversation along those lines of thoughts.

  54. Ganymede II*

    LW, you seem to have FOMO for the project you’re currently working on, and I completely get that. We sometimes invest so much of ourselves into our work, it becomes more than just work. But have you considered the other awesome projects you *could* be working on if we worked somewhere else, that would not include a stress factor like your grandboss? How amazing could these be?

    If you are very employable, time to make that happen. Write your CV, send out some feelers, and go do great work that gives you energy somewhere else.

  55. DisneyChannelThis*

    I kept telling my therapist that my work environment wasn’t that bad, and I just needed to fix *me* not the job. She finally had a moment where she told me about another one of her clients who is around my age and in similar role who had a heart attack at her desk. Other client lived, but immediately went back to work like nothing changed after being discharged from the hospital a few days later. That was a wakeup call for me, we’re several decades young for heart attack demographic. The job being intense isn’t a reason to risk dying. Stress is a huge impact on your body. Plus all the little things that keep you healthy that you don’t have time for with long hours (cooking healthy meals, regular after dinner walk, time for gym classes/workouts, hobbies that relax you). You only get one life. Live it well.

  56. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    But have you considered the other awesome projects you *could* be working on if we worked somewhere else, that would not include a stress factor like your grandboss? How amazing could these be?

    Dang, those are excellent questions. Investing our time and energy into one thing necessarily means we can’t invest it in other things. And there are lots of cool things to invest time and energy into.

  57. Fez Knots*

    Quit this job now.

    My first job postgrad was extremely toxic and my commute was a killer. I agonized for months about whether to quit, even when my mental health was suffering. Again, when I made a career change I debated for a really long time. I’d put so much blood, sweat, and tears into my work and career up to that point. How could I leave it behind without proper consideration?

    When you’re in it, it feels important to see it through. When you’re suffering it feels necessary to prove that you can do it, that you’re improving, that you’re healing and capable.

    In both instances, as soon as I quit my life got better. My career wasn’t harmed. I had nothing to prove to myself and the folks I worked with weren’t interested in my experiences anyway.

    Choose yourself. Don’t resist what’s in your gut, which is a life and career that doesn’t come at a precious cost.

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