my boss says I need to socialize more with my team

by Alison Green on August 20, 2024

A reader writes:

I’ve been in my job for about two years, and I’m just going to say it: I don’t have a great manager. The biggest sticking point has been his over-emphasis on the team hanging out and “getting to know each other.” He never bothers to schedule work time for us to do that, but when we have mandatory work events outside of normal hours, he wants the team to continue hanging out after the event ends, often late into the night.

We recently came back from a huge work event that had long days, mandatory team dinners, and other required events. Some of these events went on until late at night (10 or 11 pm). When they were done, I’d say my goodbyes to everyone and then go back to my room to recharge and sleep, or go meet a local friend for a dessert or cocktail before going back to the hotel to sleep.

When we got back to the office, my manager asked for a meeting to debrief the event, but the first question he asked was how much time I was able to spend with the team while were there. I was confused since this was a week-long event and I was with the team the entire time, so I reiterated that I was at all work events and receptions with everyone else. He replied that it seems like the team doesn’t really know me very well and I should spend more time getting to know them. All I could figure out was that he was upset that I hadn’t continued to hang out with my colleagues after the work agenda ended each night.

This is not the first time that he has brought this up to me, and it has always seemed like he is the only one who cares. My other colleagues and our senior leadership have never raised this, and in fact I have great relationships with many of them – to the point where, when they’re in my town, we’ll go out to dinner with our families or grab breakfast in the morning before they head to the airport.

And yet for two years now, I’ve received pretty constant feedback from my manager (and only my manager) that “the perception is that people don’t know you.” When I ask him to explain exactly what that means and how I can get to know them better, he never has any answers. In this latest conversation, when I asked what he thought I should do to get to know my colleagues better, all he said was, “I don’t know.”

I’ve always held firm that although I’m happy to attend a happy hour or networking event, once my work hours are done and I’m not required to be somewhere, I can do what I please (especially if it’s late at night!).

I’m frustrated that he keeps bringing this up and it doesn’t impact my actual work. Am I right to be upset about his not-so-subtle suggestions that we all need to keep hanging out even after our work days are done? I feel strongly that I should not have to constantly hang out with my colleagues, but I don’t know where to go from here.

You can read my answer to this letter at New York Magazine today. Head over there to read it.

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{ 213 comments }

{ 213 comments… read them below }

  1. Ansteve*

    This is so obnoxious. Like I am friendly with my coworkers and can even be on buddy buddy with people I work with. But that formed organically through shared interests and I don’t go out with them. I did that in the past but it became very apparent that some people are capable of being really awful when outside of professional relationships. Also it makes things really awkward if either person is fired or let go and the other one isn’t. I’m just not a fan of it.

    1. Sloanicota*

      Yeah, it seems weird to me that the boss is so fixated on this. I think if OP could find a way to transfer, they might want to look at it. It seems to me like the boss just isn’t getting OP and doesn’t like the way they go about interacting in general. I have a hard time picturing this boss advocating for them.

      1. Dawn*

        I think the bosses that are fixated on this don’t actually have social lives of their own, and are trying to get their team to stand in for actual social relationships.

        1. 1LFTW*

          My current boss is like this. Fortunately, we’re union, so he can’t make invent a job requirement that we socialize with him — I mean, attend workplace social functions to build team togetherness.

      2. OP_SocialBoss*

        Hi, I’m OP. Unfortunately I’m in a fairly niche industry that appears to be scaling back (my last TWO positions were dissolved during tech layoffs) so I’m in the space right now where I’m upskilling but also thankful to have the position that I have. That being said, there’s no way I could transfer at the moment or even within the foreseeable future.

        My boss and I do have a good relationship but he genuinely struggles with communication and feedback, and views physical proximity as actual connection and closeness. It was extremely frustrating for me to ask what I could do to improve and he said “I don’t know.”

        1. Momma Bear*

          You said, “This is not the first time that he has brought this up to me, and it has always seemed like he is the only one who cares. My other colleagues and our senior leadership have never raised this, and in fact I have great relationships with many of them – to the point where, when they’re in my town, we’ll go out to dinner with our families or grab breakfast in the morning before they head to the airport.”

          I would reiterate to him that that is not the feedback you have from your colleagues and in fact your families socialize when they’re in town unrelated to these social job functions. Just because he doesn’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. He may be projecting that he doesn’t know you better, but you shouldn’t be best friends with your boss – that’s unprofessional. I would then return the conversation to your work product, which has nothing to do with staying out late with coworkers (staying past 11 PM is a ridiculous expectation on a work night).

        2. Bird names*

          OP, it sounds like your boss has the butts-in-seats mentality pertaining to your off-hour socializing. Momma Bear honestly breaks it down perfectly. I’m sorry and hope you can find a workable solution without having to give up more of your free time.

        3. Mockingjay*

          It’s not the team. He wants you to hang with him.

          But he can’t say that straight out. So it’s couched in vague “performance” language. Other than his peer managers, you’re likely closest to him in the hierarchy, which provides a level of comfort and makes you the preferred “buddy” for these types of events. Not saying that’s right – you’re there to perform a job, not be his Emotional Support Person.

          If you receive fair evaluations otherwise and these events are infrequent, maybe just shrug off his feedback and do as you normally do at these events? (I don’t suggest hanging out late with him once or twice to placate; I think he’s “give a mouse a cookie” and he’d expect your attention at every event going forward.)

          1. OP_SocialBoss*

            This is right on the money. Despite me being the youngest I am the highest up in hierarchy. We knew each other (from the same industry, just in different companies and departments) before he hired me and we also have a lot in common. I’ve never necessarily felt uncomfortable hanging out with him alone, but I do feel uncomfortable at his constant insistence that I be places with him and that I stay out super late. I don’t drink heavily (many of these tech guys will do shot after shot until 3 AM) and value my sleep and alone time.

            My concern that others have brought up down the thread—and one that is now in my head—is that I’m a younger woman (30’s) and he’s an older man (50’s) that just completed a pretty contentious divorce. My feedback has always been positive EXCEPT for this very vague “your team doesn’t know you”…despite the fact that my team has never expressed this to me. It’s all very strange.

            1. Cassandra*

              These details change everything, or at least make it all crystal clear! OP, he has a serious crush on you.

              1. goddessoftransitory*

                Yep, that clarifies it (horribly.) Even if he doesn’t have a crush, he’s using you to boost his ego–being seen with a younger, pretty, smart woman is probably how he’s soothing his feelings about his divorce.

                1. Ellie*

                  I feel that this is more likely than him having a crush. He has lost the woman in his life that used to handle his emotional labour. You’re the next closest thing.

                  I wish I had some advice for you. Since his feelings aren’t rational, and you’re not doing anything wrong, you’re options are pretty limited. You could try taking him literally and just list off all the way you support your people, but it probably won’t change anything. You could put out an anonymous survey and hope that the results show him that you’re well connected and respected. It might shut him up but it won’t change him. He likely can’t admit to himself what the problem is.

                  Either way, I’d recommend getting more distance between you, not less.

            2. sparkle emoji*

              Oof I’m sorry OP. This definitely sounds like he’s putting his personal feelings in the performance eval. Good luck finding something new soon.

            3. Wonder Woman's Tiara*

              Oooof. OP, yeah, this isn’t good.

              I *am* extremely friendly with my boss, and we *do* socialise a lot (at least once a month, albeit in groups). But there have never been any vibes like this (he’s a gay man and I’m a gay woman), which is WHY I’m happy to hang out. This situation does not give those vibes. Steer clear and document anything that gives you ‘off’ vibes in case you need it later. Trust your instincts.

              I’m so sorry, OP; this is crap.

            4. Starbuck*

              “I’m a younger woman (30’s) and he’s an older man (50’s) that just completed a pretty contentious divorce.”

              Haha ok yeah there it is. HE now is lonely and has no social life, and is projecting super hard to get you & work to fill this new void in his life. Bummer of a position to be in, best of luck holding firm on your boundaries.

              1. goddessoftransitory*

                But clearly also knows it is wildly, wildly inappropriate, so he’s doing the “your team needs more of your time” displacement thing.

            5. Andie Begins*

              Oooooh OP I don’t like that for you. I hope you’re in a position to resist his attempts to get closer to you socially, maybe hide behind professionalism if you have to – I don’t like the way he is comfortable pulling the levers of his power over you in the workplace to demand a closer relationship than you’re offering.

            6. Also-ADHD*

              I wonder if this information changes the advice at all? It seems like important context, because especially if he’s not holding male reports to this standard, it could become a liability issue if he pushes it.

            7. sometimeswhy*

              I had this boss. It was in an environment where everyone above him was ALSO a creeper and HR once suggested that I “be more assertive” when an outside consultant put his hands on me so I didn’t have anywhere to turn.

              It was nearly ten years of, “I can’t. I have a commitment but I bet COLLEAGUE would appreciate the overtime,” and “[shared hobby] is something i prefer to do solo. Is COMPANY starting up a group? That sounds so fun for you!” and “Interesting! Which project is this associated with? + [pointed silence]”

              I was (1) relentlessly cheerful and (2) absolutely thick when it came to reading between the lines. I responded as if everything was OBVIOUSLY work related and if he wanted to make it clear that it wasn’t, he was going to have to spell it out.

              It was exhausting but he retired and I took his job. Months later he texted me something that would’ve gotten him fired if he still worked there and I blocked his number without responding.

          2. Lisa*

            I thought about this as well. But I also wonder if he’s hoping for OP to do HIS socializing for him? As in not just hanging out with the team, but also with the higher-ups and other team leaders and such so that he doesn’t have to. If he started hearing from his “equals” and even his bosses about how friendly and easy to engage they found OP, there’s a good chance he would stop bringing this up. Don’t know how possible that is to do, but maybe it would be helpful for OP to consider if they’re a little more closed off to managers and other leaders than they are to colleagues and subordinates and see if there’s some room to adjust those interactions, since it really does seem like they have good relationships with their team. (Hermit me views you as some sort of god-like social being for all that you do!)

        4. goddessoftransitory*

          So basically, he’s my cat, who cannot let us be out of his sight–while he sleeps and generally ignores us.

      3. goddessoftransitory*

        It has a really weird “forced play date” feel to it. Like the boss is one of those teachers or moms that is super super fixated on the neighborhood kids all getting along! forever!

    2. Gemstone*

      I also think you can work fine with coworkers while having just a cordial working relationship with them! You don’t need to be super close!

  2. ferrina*

    OP might be able to head this off by preemptively mentioning socializing in their conversations with their manager (and work-socializing counts as socializing).

    “I was talking to Melody about the project- Melody was in town and we grabbed breakfast at this lovely cafe- and her thoughts are…”
    “The work event was great! It was wonderful to see everyone, and of course the events were very useful. Mordecai and I were talking about that during dinner…”
    “Mo said something really interesting the other day. He recently got back from vacation- you know, he went to the Maldives- and he was saying….”

    Just little asides to show that you have relationships with all these people and are seeing them as more than robots. Of course, you shouldn’t need to do any of this and your boss should either trust you to cultivate good working relationships or he should say something directly, but this might help him realize that you are doing what you need to do.

    2. OP_SocialBoss*

      Hi, I’m OP. This is good advice and I’m going to start incorporating it into my work. Thank you!

      1. Shiny Penny*

        This seems like excellent advice UNLESS the above thread is actually more the heart of the problem (him wanting you to be better friends WITH HIM). In that case, emphasizing that you are friendly in all these specific ways with all these other people could just make him jealous— and weirder. Jealousy can be dangerous.
        So this actually reads like a red flag situation to me (older recently-divorced male superior insisting on more closeness/ younger female subordinate). As such, it could be one of those delightful “heads you lose, tails I win” situations.
        Not doing anything different might be safest? Currently, he has vague complaints but isn’t actively harming you (that you know of).
        What if you just expressed verbal agreement with him during these meetings? SAY you’ve heard his feedback on that. Make statements that endorse/echo his statements about the importance of coworker closeness. Like, steal his lines and act like you’re on the same side of the debate now. But don’t cite examples just like he is not citing examples? Then move on to the next agenda item?
        Hopefully I’m wrong. But this sounds so uncomfortable! Sorry you are having to deal with this.

        1. smirkette*

          I’d be worried that he’d start demanding OP have breakfast or dinner with him since she’s doing it with folks from out of town. (Which is of a course different situation, but if the boss really is crushing or looking for a deeper relationship, I would be prepared for him to try rules lawyering—you’re having meals with them, why not ME?!)

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            This does seem like the kind of “clever” workaround he might be trying to instigate. OP, stay wary!

        2. Ellie*

          I agree, he’s likely to get jealous, and dangerous, if you go in this direction. He might also start inviting you out to breakfast… which you really don’t want!

      2. Shirley Keeldar*

        Would it help at all to lean into the idea of different sleep schedules? “Oh, I’d love to join everybody at the bar, but I’m such an early bird! My eyes are starting to close all by themselves. See you at breakfast!” “Oh, you know me, I turn into a pumpkin at 9:30.”

        It won’t solve the whole thing (because the whole thing is that your boss is a dope) but maybe it’ll make it all a bit less…personal…for him?

    2. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

      Last job very briefly floated the idea of after work get togethers. We were a pretty diverse in age/family set up/etc group so there wasn’t a lot of after hours socializing. One person suggested that we do axe throwing and my response was, “You want us to work together for eight hours and then go out afterwards to throw axes and NOT at each other?”

      The idea was quickly dropped and as far as I know, no one ever organized an official outing anywhere. Mandatory fun isn’t fun.

      2. Kyrielle*

        Axe throwing. AXE THROWING.

        I mean, I know it exists and it honestly sounds kinda fun to me, but NOT as a work activity.

        3. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

          Apparently alcohol is BYO. I….hmmm…hesitate to get around anyone who’s had a few and then is handed an axe. In general, axe throwing SOUNDS like it could be a good time or a spectacularly BAD time, depending on the situation.

        5. SimonTheGreyWarden*

          Yeah, I loved it when an organization I volunteer with arranged this for the board…but I would never have gone for work.

      3. Katie*

        Except most people enjoy these things and these outings. My work had not done any fun outings in a long time but gave funds for teams to go out and do stuff. When asked what their favorite event of the year was, it was overwhelmingly the team outings.

        1. Dawn*

          I think you’re drastically overshooting there with “most”.

          Maybe it’s true of that particular team, but I think that “most” people really don’t care for mandatory work socialization, and I’d question whether most people even really like the non-mandatory kind.

          1. Excel Gardener*

            I think there’s a big distinction between whether these are during or after work hours. Most people I know enjoy these sorts of things if they’re during work hours, as they feel like a perk and break from work. Meanwhile most resent them if they’re mandatory after work events.

            1. sparkle emoji*

              Yep. My current company does a lot of the official work socializing during work hours, and most people are good with it. Sometimes it even means we get to go home early. If we were asked to go way after hours like OP, things would be different

        3. RabbitRabbit*

          Some people do. My hearing is shit in crowded situations so I spend half the time straining to understand conversations.

          Pre-COVID, we had regular outings a few times a year during work hours and the upper management would get mad if we left before the 4 hour Mandatory Fun period was over (sitting in a crowded bar with a buffet), so before the last one, they stated that if you left early, you had to return to the office. So a few colleagues of mine and I did.

        4. MigraineMonth*

          I agree. Team stuff can be fun as long as it’s a) during work hours, b) inclusive of known team needs, c) people can easily opt-out, d) your coworkers aren’t awful, and e) the workload isn’t so high people are stressed about taking a break.

          Your mileage may vary, but “getting paid for hanging out and doing no work” ranks pretty high on my list of favorite work activities.

      4. AnonInCanada*

        The only mandatory fun I ever want to participate in is listening to the last album “Weird Al” Yankovic made. :-P

      5. Grace Poole*

        At my workplace we have a public slack channel for out of the office socializing that is completely voluntary. Some people use it to organize happy hours, some use it to organize hikes, some people share information about a craft show that they’re participating in. Some people go to a lot of events, some don’t go to any. I’m not usually the life of the party, but it seems like a decent workaround.

      6. UKDancer*

        We had that at an awayday at a company I worked at several jobs ago. It was an activity day with a lot of activities to choose from and the axe throwing was very popular. I can say it was a lot of fun and when we were asked to rate the activities it was the one everyone liked best (along with the safe cracking puzzle).

        So I would actually say it was rather good, but it works best alongside other activities because not everyone wants to do it. So we had a day with a range of activities (I think there were about 5-6 options and everyone chose the 3 activities they liked best).

    3. CherryBlossom*

      As a cranky, neurodivergent introvert, it takes everything in me to say “I’m not here to make friends”. I truly don’t care if people feel like they don’t know me, I’m just here to do my job and go home to the people I actually like and want to know.

    6. Bunny Girl*

      Right? Like I’ve gotten a glimpse of hell. I can have warm, collaborative relationships with my coworkers without hanging out with them like they’re my BFF.

      1. Evan88*

        I think if my coworker described our relationship as warm and collaborative but viewed an after hours team building thing with me as a “glimpse of hell” I’d feel a lot less warm and collaborative.

  4. FricketyFrack*

    I’m not opposed to socializing with my coworkers, but the idea that we should all be besties is such a weird take. I just got back from a conference where it was apparently kind of a weird choice to go back to my room at the end of the day instead of drinking at the hotel bar with other attendees. Like, guys, half the reason I’m so exhausted is because the rest of you won’t stop drunkenly/loudly talking in the courtyard for half the night, so maybe we should *all* rein it in, not just me? Thankfully, my boss wouldn’t care even if she knew, but I’m kind of dreading next year.

    1. Michelle Smith*

      Is it required to stay at the conference hotel? Having a room at place nearby instead of the same venue with the conference sessions might allow you to actually get some sleep.

      1. FricketyFrack*

        It was my first year going (and my first time in a job where I’d actually attend something like that), so I wasn’t sure if there was an option not to stay there. Honestly, the hotel in general kind of sucked, and I know I wasn’t the only one planning to give negative feedback when the organizers sent a survey. If they still have it there next year, I’ll likely find a hotel at a comparable cost and pitch that to my boss.

        1. Jaydee*

          It’s really tough to know the vibe of a conference in advance. Sometimes you can tell based on how many socials/networking events are on the schedule. But sometimes that really doesn’t tell you much because there are things sponsored by vendors or unofficial after-parties. You also don’t know your own team’s vibe. Some people view conferences as an opportunity to party and let loose, while others want to attend sessions, spend an hour at the reception eating a few hors d’ouvres and networking a little, and then head back to the hotel early. But once you know, it’s easier to prepare for future years.

    2. Chirpy*

      I don’t even hang out that much with my actual friends at conventions! We go off and do things by ourselves for a bit at least once a day.

      I’ve had to do constant socialization with a coworker once because we were also sharing a hotel room, and boy am I glad the conference was only overnight. Our manager just dropped us at the hotel and disappeared for the rest of the night, thankfully.

    3. Sloanicota*

      I guess the only reason I even had a slight eyebrow raise at OP’s description there was that it seemed they left work socializing to go have drinks with another friend. That should be totally fine, but I suppose if I already knew my boss had a weak spot for this stuff, I’d either keep it on the DL or try to avoid that. If OP is tired from a long day of socializing it should be totally fine for them to go to bed at 11 and not stay out with the team carousing (been there, on both sides of that equation actually) but I might think twice about staying out and social – just with someone else.

      1. Everything Bagel*

        I don’t see this the same way. We’re all entitled to some downtime, even if we’re traveling for work. It’s not like OP left a work function early to go see a friend. Hanging out for a while at the end of a night with an old friend is way different than continuing to hang on into the night with people you just spent the entire day (every day!) with. Since no one else is complaining, it seems to me that it’s only the boss who wants to hang out more with OP since no one else seems to have a problem with him doing his own thing occasionally. Maybe the boss doesn’t like that OP goes and has down time of whatever kind instead of staying around drinking with him.

      1. FricketyFrack*

        I won’t stay in that hotel again if at all possible, period. It was bad in a lot of ways, the sound was just the worst part.

  5. I strive to Excel*

    My consistent biggest gripe about business travel at my prior firm is that it felt like when I wasn’t working I was constantly, *constantly* in close proximity with my coworkers. Dinners. Cocktail hours. Events. Even during car rides I was expecting to be working or socializing. Some of these coworkers were actually my managers. Some were my manager’s manager’s manager. Everything else about travelling was fine, but sweet lord, sometimes a gal just wants to have a quiet drink in the fancy hotel bar by herself.

    1. Sally Forth*

      So true. On out of town trips I lived for when my manager would yawn and head up to bed early.

    2. Cranky Old Bat*

      I had a job where I moved out of state and changed to working remote. At first, I came back to the home office once a quarter for a few days, grabbed an empty office and just worked like a normal person. Then the boss changed.

      The new boss decided that every remote employee had to be come in at the same time, for a full week, and the boss planned 12-16 hours of activities for the entire team every day for that week. Yet we were still expected to get work done.

      Hell, I tell you.

    3. smirkette*

      Same. I’m also an autistic introvert who needs at LEAST 8 hours of quality sleep to function. I didn’t last in that job very long because the social people had all the influence. This place had a wide range age range of employees, but there would be 40–70 year olds closing down the bar and then scheduling a 6am breakfast meeting the next day. I wish I had that stamina!

  6. Aggretsuko*

    I think this is a case where sane people would be all “do what you like,” but this guy is … not sane on this topic, and he’s in charge of you.

    Are repercussions happening? Is he writing you up for this or dinging you on your evaluation?

    Alison may have a point in that you specifically have to hang out WITH HIM if he’s continuing to complain and he’s the only one doing so.

    1. OP_SocialBoss*

      Hi, I’m OP.

      No repercussions are happening, no write ups, etc and the boss and I routinely hang out together whenever we are in each other’s towns. It’s not dinging me on evaluations because I’m not judged/evaluated on team interactions since we all kind of operate in our own silos (I have 6 very specific metrics I am evaluated on).

      1. BringerofBrownies*

        OP you don’t have to divulge any more details, but the only explanation I could really come up with for this hang-up on hanging out together – especially when it’s clear that you do spend quite a bit of off-time as a team together – is that the boss wants to spend more time with you, in particular. The vague “people say they don’t know you” and being unable to give you specific examples when you push raised a flag for me.

        Again, you don’t have to answer, but if you’re a woman this conundrum might take a new light.

        1. OP_SocialBoss*

          I am a woman and I’ve never thought about this before—you’re also not the only one in the thread who has brought this up. It definitely puts things into a new perspective, especially since he just went through a nasty divorce.

            1. Paint N Drip*

              I actually think this is more likely than romance. He’s probably literally lonely and needing emotional support. Women = therapist so obv OP needs to be around me more (and the other commenters who note that discussing ways OP is close to coworkers might actually INCREASE his insistence because now he’s doubly lonely)

          2. holdonloosely*

            Ooof, this does make me wonder if “People say they don’t know you” is code for “I wish you’d stay out later and probably drink more so I could take a shot at you.”

            1. OP_SocialBoss*

              This was something that didn’t pop into my head until you (and many others down the thread) brought it up but the more I think about it, the more you may be right.

              The vague feedback, the comments about wanting me to stay out later…I’m definitely going to be keeping my guard up. Other folks on the team do not seem to have this issue, but they are also much older than me.

          3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

            Oh god, red flags, sirens blaring everywhere, danger Will Robinson, Danger. Yeah he wants you to stay and be the last one there so he can get to know you better.

            Stick to your guns on this. You don’t need to be his midlife crisis.

              1. goddessoftransitory*

                Winner winner chicken dinner! This, or “you are A Woman I Know and therefore owe me emotional support” are the most likely contenders. Add “stay out late and drink with me” only heightens both possibilities.

                OP, I may be paranoid but… don’t ever leave a drink unattended around him.

                1. MigraineMonth*

                  The Venn Diagram of “women who owe me sex” (A) and “women who owe me emotional support” (B) is not a circle, but I think circle A is inside circle B.

                  If you are a target of his pantsfeelings, you must also deal with his feelingsbombs (thank you to Captain Awkward for the vocabulary).

        2. Consonance*

          I, too, was wondering about the gender dynamics here. But my thought is that if OP is a woman, this may be another side of “why don’t you smile more?” or “you don’t seem warm enough.”

          1. Chocolate Croissant*

            If OP had been a newish employee, I was wondering if there was going to be a, “We’re letting you go because you’re not a good fit,” conversation, but your comment and he ones above make much more sense.

      2. Hazel*

        That’s great that this isn’t really a performance issue at all!
        In which case, how about the next time he says something, you say, I have heard that feedback from you and only you before and you had no actionable items on it, so unless there is something new I will put a pin in it.

        1. El*

          I was trying to figure out how to make this suggestion, and you nailed it.

          (Also, my cat’s name is Hazel! :))

  7. mcm*

    I would say I’m someone who *likes* to socialize with coworkers, but I also like to go home!! when work is over!! That’s the part of this that really gets me — if you’re saying I need to be more social or sign up for committees or whatnot, sure, but I’m not giving up more time off the clock to do so. If socializing is so important to this manager, why not institute a regular lunch *during work hours that the company pays for* rather than expecting the socializing time to come out of the off hours!

  8. H3llifIknow*

    I think rather than, “what he thought I should do to get to know my colleagues better,” I’d ask him “What is you think my colleagues would like/need to know that they’re not seeing in our current level of interaction?” Perhaps he would be able to respond more concretely with, “well, like what’s your favorite color? Do you have any pets?” because I suspect that Alison is correct and it’s more that HE feels HE doesn’t know you very well so… he’s asking “for a friend” in a manner of speaking. Just a thought :)

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I definitely got the “asking for a friend” vibe as well, but also it feels like a problem with a very obvious solution: the boss could just find ways to get to know LW instead of making it a whole thing! Boss, make an effort to sit next to / across from LW at dinner. Ask LW questions of the get-to-know-you variety. Unless LW is especially rigid about sharing aspects of their lives with others — and it doesn’t sound like they are — this seems like he’s creating an issue where there doesn’t have to be one.

    2. Sloanicota*

      I did wonder if OP could follow up. “Are you saying this because I left the conference happy hour at ten when other people stayed out? I find I do better socializing one on one, which is why I went to dinner with X and their spouse or joined Y for coffee the next morning – but I really am very engaged socially with my coworkers!” and see what boss says. Just out of curiosity. I can’t tell if Boss has some other motivation or maybe someone has mentioned finding OP intimidating or unfriendly.

    3. mlem*

      I admit I was thinking the OP should reply, “Hm, that’s not what they tell me. We all know each other pretty well. So I think you can put your mind to rest about that.” Just to remove the fig leaf of “the colleagues” having concerns.

      1. Everything Bagel*

        This I like, but instead of “you can put your mind to rest about that,” maybe ask, “what have you heard different?” I think saying you can put your mind to rest is too dismissive of someone who is your manager, but I like the first part telling him you have a good relationships with your co-workers/employees. Rewording it slightly puts it back on him to explain what he’s heard, which is probably nothing, so he naturally won’t have much of a follow-up.

  9. DrSalty*

    It’s pretty damning he can’t come up with examples or tell you how to do it better. Sounds like he’s picked a narrative and won’t budge from it.

    1. pally*

      I kinda wonder if boss is setting up to use this against the OP in their annual review by claiming a “failure to take direction” kind of thing. But maybe I’m stretching things a bit.

      1. OP_SocialBoss*

        Hi, I’m OP. Thankfully this is not anything that I’m even remotely judged on, and I’m at the point now where I’m taking down documentation of when I’ve asked for direct feedback regarding this and every single time he says “I don’t know.” It does make me a bit nervous, though, and it’s very annoying that he can’t come up with anything when I ask for advice.

        1. Everything Bagel*

          Rather than asking what he thinks you should do, have you explicitly asked him what he’s heard from others? I really like mlem’s suggestion just above, but with a slight variation of it.

        2. pally*

          Glad to read that this isn’t a ploy to mess with your job performance reviews. Still, it is annoying to keep getting this from the boss.

        3. Jenesis*

          If your boss keeps replying with “I don’t know”, I would breezily turn it back on him. “Whenever you have any suggestions, let me know and I’ll do my best to implement them!” and then carry on as you are with the full expectation that he will never make any suggestions.

          I agree with the commentariat that this is a boss-is-lonely problem, not a you problem and not a your team problem. And he’s not making suggestions because it would shine a spotlight on how his “feedback” wouldn’t (and can’t) address the real issue.

          1. Reluctant Mezzo*

            Sadly, it may get him to suggest a bar at midnight with just him. But at least it’d be out in the open.

  10. Strawberry Snarkcake*

    Sweet Pete, this is obnoxious. OP is clearly not some kind of hermit that people don’t know, I would probably say, “Sir/Ma’am, I attend all work related social functions and interact with my coworkers during that time, so I’m really not sure how else you would like me to “get closer” to them. I really need some examples of how to meet your expectations.”

    1. goddessoftransitory*

      This! If OP worked out of a dank cavern and hissed whenever she was approached, this “critique” might have merit. As it is, she’s stuck playing “read my mind” over and over again with a guy who might very probably have agendas that are less than professional.

  11. Cat Lady*

    While OP totally should be free to recharge and do what they want in evenings (and this boss is way out of line!), assuming they want to stay in this role and are stuck with this boss, this stuck out to me:

    When they were done, I’d say my goodbyes to everyone and then go back to my room to recharge and sleep, or go meet a local friend for a dessert or cocktail before going back to the hotel to sleep.

    To the extent your boss hears that you were meeting with local friends, they are likely going to hear it (unfairly!) as having the bandwidth for social time on a work trip and still choosing not to be with the team. Again — not how it should be! But, may be worth using that bandwidth when on a work trip with that boss to be sure to be with the team (or sleep!) but not personal social events

    1. Spreadsheet Queen*

      I disagree. Work travel can already be A LOT. And it sounds like the work travel already comes with “after hours” work colleague activities.

      I have friends all over the country, and many of these friendships are not “go schedule vacation time just to see them” type of friendships, but I LOVE when I get to see these friends if I happen to travel to their area. Sure, sometimes I’m able to tack on a couple of PTO days at the travel destination to see friends and do tourist things, but you can’t always do that.

      If I’ve been to meetings with colleagues, and breakfast, and lunch, and dinner, and whatever, and I want to have a local friend meet me for a drink at the hotel bar at 10 pm, that should be fine! It sounds like LW is already having 10 or 12 or more hours per day with her colleagues on these trips, some of that being meal and social time. It’s totally reasonable to end that time and do something else until bedtime.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        If you can’t cover something with your colleagues during a 10 to 12 hour togetherness fest, IT CAN WAIT. Having a drink with a friend after spending at least two more hours than a standard workday with your coworkers is beyond normal!

    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Meeting with a friend is when you relax. Work socializing is exhausting because you are still working.

      Boss is looney tunes. He can’t come up with concrete examples but wants OP to give up her time that she uses to recharge to spend it working.

    3. sb51*

      +1 Don’t mention the other friends, at all. Not saying not to hang with them, just keep it quiet. That way, “I need to sleep/recharge” doesn’t ever get interpreted as “I want to socialize but I don’t want to hang out with YOU LOSERS” by any coworkers/bosses.

      (I’m not saying OP is saying or thinking that! Or that there’s anything wrong with them recharging by hanging out with friends. But that this misinterpretation seems likely to me and that by avoiding it, they could improve their life without actually changing how they’re handling trips otherwise.)

  12. ragazza*

    I had a couple of remote bosses at Old Job who wanted me to travel periodically to their location so I could “hang out with the rest of the team.” And then when I got there, no one even wanted to go out for lunch with me, not even the boss. It was pointless, but that office was in a state that is a popular vacation destination, so I was happy to go and enjoy some warm weather and the hotel pool in the depths of winter on the company’s dime.

    1. Industry Behemoth*

      After post-pandemic lockdown, many firms in my industry tooted the importance of “collaboration” in expecting people to return to office.

      At least one firm ordered its junior professionals to come into the office. However, they failed to require the same of the mid-level and senior professionals these juniors were expected to collaborate with.

      Talk about do as I say, not as I do.

      1. Dawn*

        I am truly hoping that you meant “touted”.

        The alternative produces a fascinating, but disturbing, mental image.

  13. Caramel & Cheddar*

    I very much wish there was a way to politely and firmly say “If you can’t give me any examples of both what it means that my coworkers don’t know me and how I can get to know them better, can you stop bringing it up?” It’s so annoying to have to hear the same unactionable generic feedback all the time, especially if the feedback doesn’t really seem to be based in reality.

  14. nnn*

    Alison’s statement of “But I strongly suspect that when your boss says it seems like the team doesn’t know you well enough, what he means is that he doesn’t know you well enough and he doesn’t think you socialize enough” somehow pinged in my brain the idea that there might be some demographic difference between OP and the rest of the team (age? gender? race?)

    I can’t articulate why I’m perceiving this though, and don’t know if it would change the advice.

    1. OP_SocialBoss*

      Hi, I’m OP.

      Yes—I’m the youngest person on my team by about 2 decades (I’m mid-30’s, everyone else is mid-50’s or late 50’s). I’m not the only woman or person of color on my team but I’m the only woman or person of color on my team who is under the age of 36.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Oh those silly millenials* they just don’t have work ethic. They need to spend all their time working, it is their whole center of being.

        Look even Gen X knows that bs. We started the whole work life balance thing because we saw what working all the time did to our parents.

        *yes I know millenials are now in the late 30s and early 40s, but people with this mindsent have not caught up. Yes I know now every older person thinks this way. Can I say again Boss is looney tunes?

        1. OP_SocialBoss*

          Lol!! Thank you for the laugh. And I do agree—I’m trying to maintain a good work-life balance. This job is at 75% travel and sometimes I am not home for weeks at a time, which is an adjustment for me (I was at a larger corporation beforehand but due to the pandemic they were very travel averse). It’s the best money I’ve ever made but I’m trying to learn how to recharge after literally spending all day around my coworkers. I’ve never had to do this before.

          1. Bird names*

            75% travel? Yeah, those breaks and friend meet-ups are likely load-bearing considering your work context. I’m sorry I can’t give more concrete advice on advocating for work-life balance. Tried that with my last workaholic boss with very limited success.
            Well, I did stick to my hours as closely as possible however and am still grateful that I managed to avoid another burnout that way.

          2. Angstrom*

            When I had a heavy work travel schedule I learned to politely carve out “me” time after a full day with colleagues. If you’ve already done a dinner or two with the team it’s fine to say “No thanks — the local museum has an exhibit I want to see and this is the only evening it’s open this week.” When you’re on the road you might as well see something other than a hotel bar every night.

          3. Hroethvitnir*

            Oof, 75% is so much. At least it sounds like your team is good!

            Good luck for the future regardless of how handling your manager goes.

      2. nnn*

        Now that I think about it, when I (white woman, if that’s relevant) was younger, I often had older people judging/scolding/criticizing me for not being more social, or not being social in the way they thought I should, or enjoying a quiet day at home at a given moment when they thought I should be doing something else.

        Most often, these people weren’t trying to invite me to any sort of social activity or didn’t have anything specific in mind they thought I should be doing, they just generally felt that it was Bad and Wrong that I might not be socializing at a given moment in time.

        This has tapered off as I’ve gotten older, although I still occasionally get it from random internet strangers (who I suspect are perceiving me as younger than I am.)

        So I don’t know if this is a general way older people talk to younger people or just a case of two out of two random internet strangers experiencing the same thing.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah, I had a nagging feeling about that too. OP’s comment helps. I wonder if the *way* the boss socializes (or thinks he remembered socializing 20+ years ago) isn’t the way that a lot of people socialize today. Is it even possible for that to happen, given OP’s dispersed/remote workforce? Is he somehow expecting there to be a company bowling league?

    3. DJ Abbott*

      I also noticed that but to me, it seems more like the boss is projecting specifically on OP instead of it being a demographics thing.
      That’s why I suggested below OP’s grandboss, or other managers, should know this is going on. In case boss gets more insistent, and tries to use his authority to make it happen.

    4. LifeIsGood*

      I agree with this. I get the feeling that the OP is not buddy buddy with the boss, and the boss resents OP for this.

      OP, I would start asking him more personal questions. Just google “questions to ask someone to build a closer relationship.” (BTW, I got the same feedback from my boss, and now I make it a point to ask all sorts of personal questions, and honestly, I don’t reveal much about myself…hehehe).

  15. DJ Abbott*

    “Often these managers center their own social lives around their colleagues and expect others to do the same.“
    Our current manager’s priority is her social needs. She spends hours every day socializing with her favorite employees. There are other managers around to see this. I expect at some point she’ll be spoken to, if she hasn’t already.
    Meanwhile, if LW takes the steps and finds her boss’s opinion is not shared, I wonder if it might be good for LW to mention this to her grandboss. Depending on the relationship, structure, and office dynamics, it might be good for someone above LW’s boss to know he’s doing this. Or if not grandboss, other managers on the same level as LW’s boss. Basically, make it so someone else with authority is aware that this is happening.

    1. dulcinea47*

      I’ve found that there’s a slim difference between Managing By Walking Around, and just walking around socializing for hours. So slim.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        She does all this in her office, with the door open, in an office of 20 people where the doors are not soundproof. Even closing the doors wouldn’t help, it would still be obvious.

  16. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

    This isn’t about socializing with the colleagues, it’s about getting face time logged with the boss. Here’s where I’d make a point to stand right next to the boss during pre-dinner cocktails, or sit at the same table for dinner, then slip out once my social obligations were fulfilled and noted.

    I need at least a couple of hours of recharge after a huge day of people-ing, especially work-people-ing, and and the thought that I couldn’t go to my room at 10 pm when there’s another day of it all scheduled for the morning would require mid-morning naps and unlimited coffee.

    1. UKDancer*

      Yes, I’ve learnt that the key thing to do if I want to go early is to spend at least 5 minutes talking to the boss over cocktails, make sure I communicate something to him that he will remember, then thank anyone senior for the event, and then leave when I’ve spoken to everyone I need to. That way if I leave earlier on my presence has been noted and I get the credit but without having to spend all night.

  17. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

    I genuinely enjoy socializing with coworkers. I also always stay at the hotel where a meeting is held, because it gives me the opportunity to run into a coworker more casually and get to know them a little better. But why do you have to be one of the people who closes the bar every night? Good grief. Your manager is a tool.

  18. ThursdaysGeek*

    When Alison said, “… what he means is that he doesn’t know you well enough and he doesn’t think you socialize enough”, I extended it to he doesn’t think you socialize enough with HIM.

    1. Friday Hopeful*

      I got this feeling too. And I wonder if its a little creepy on his part since now we know that OP is females and 20 years younger than everyone else.

        1. Godiva Plaistow*

          EXACTLY! This is what worries me about OP trying to be more social with her boss at events. If he does have a crush on her as others have suggested, or he’s looking for some free & easy therapy (also already mentioned) then hanging out with him one on one could be disastrous.

  19. Alex*

    I rarely even hang out with my ACTUAL friends past 11pm, let alone my coworkers! Geez. Some of us need our sleep.

    1. goddessoftransitory*

      Right? After ten or eleven it’s “I love and cherish you, dear friend; and now, leave.”

  20. Dawn*

    This might not be the best solution for the LW, but I think if it were me, I’d be tempted to just name what I was seeing next time, rather than ask him to explain something he’s obviously uncomfortable saying out loud.

    Like next time I got that sort of feedback, I’d just straight up say, “I receive this feedback from you after every event; I don’t see what you’re seeing, as I am close with many members of the team, but I get the impression that you would like for me to hang out with you and the the other team members outside of work hours. Is that the case?” And he’s probably going to say no and refuse to define it again and I’d probably then ask him – politely and professionally and how that looks is going to depend on you and your relationship – to please stop bringing it up until he can point to some evidence and has concrete guidance on what he’d like you to do differently.

    But I recognize that this is adversarial and it’s probably easier and more constructive to just let it go. I just really find that this whole “I refuse to say what I mean because I know it’s unprofessional” thing gets right up my nose and I’d want to nip it in the bud before becoming any more resentful.

  21. anotherfan*

    Since I can’t read Alison’s reply without signing up for the source, I don’t know whether she brought this up, but if she did, i can add on — I once had a boss who used to really rail at people for leaving exactly on time when he was hanging around the office long after his day was over. In my case, I had to meet my kid at the bus stop or they’d have been returned to school. In his case … he had no life. Once he got married, suddenly it wasn’t a big thing if people left on time. This insistence on mixing with the team sounds like your boss has no social life except with work people and just doesn’t get someone who isn’t on his wavelength — and that includes a social boss vs a more introverted person.

  22. doreen*

    “when they’re in my town, we’ll go out to dinner with our families or grab breakfast in the morning before they head to the airport.” This kind of sounds to me like you don’t work in the same city or see each other often – if that’s the case, it may have something to do with the manager’s attitude, especially if he doesn’t know abut the breakfasts and dinners.

  23. Bird Law*

    I guess it’s time to invite him to lunch? Alison’s answer that he’s projecting his own feelings as those from the team at large made sooo much sense to me immediately. He will never stop giving this feedback until he feels like it is true for *him.*

    And he doesn’t feel special or connected to OP because she’s clocked him as a bad manager and correctly kept an appropriate arms-length relationship with him.

    So I guess the best response is to make regular overtures of lunch, bringing him a coffee, and asking about his weekend on a regular cycle? I suggest calendaring it.

      1. Bird Law*

        I think someone would need to weigh that truth against what will help them in the situation they are in, however unfair it is.

        OP’s boss has set an impossible and unfair standard. There are some times when making a stand or trying to run an objection up the chain make sense because those actions would work to achieve some sort of change without any risk to job security.

        My read on this situation is that a little emotional labor would get him to back off. But there’s also a risk that the boss might try something really outrageous with even a little bit of rope.

        1. Bird Law*

          And this is not genuine closeness, it is perfunctory. But it would be helpful to push back when this criticism is leveled.

          “You don’t socialize with the team enough.”

          “I make a point to regularly invite you to lunch. And [all of OP’s genuine connections.]”

    2. Hroethvitnir*

      I don’t know if the various recommendations to make more effort to be social with him are good or not, but personally if someone was being as obnoxious to me as described I don’t think I could tolerate it. (Continue to be pleasant? Sure. Actively give him extra attention and force myself to have extended conversations? Please no.)

      People who try to force closeness typically invoke intense wariness instead, and being the boss is worse. Eugh.

  24. Spicy Tuna*

    I have a strong aversion to socializing with co-workers outside of work. I am not even that comfortable getting lunch during the work day with co-workers.

    I have no idea where this mindset comes from, but I feel like socializing with co-workers is massively taboo. Once, two women I work with took a cruise together and I thought to myself, “Is that even allowed?”. Mind you, they were co-workers, not supervisor / direct report and they went as friends, not anything romantic.

    Something just feels “off” to me about mixing business and friendship. Like, you can’t have both, so something is going to break and break horribly and why eff up your livelihood and ability to pay your bills? Find friends somewhere else!

    1. Dawn*

      I wouldn’t say that it’s massively taboo. Some people spend 60-80 hours a week at work; where else are they going to meet people?

      But genuine friendships should be confined to people at the same level, or at the very least, outside of each others’ reporting structure. What is significantly more taboo in this situation is that the boss seems to want to be friends with his reports.

      Friendship between coworkers is fine though, and even common. Of course it’s allowed for your coworkers to take a cruise together, good heavens.

      1. UKDancer*

        Yes, at least one of my closest friends is someone I met through work. We hit it off and stayed in touch even when we both moved jobs. We meet up for afternoon tea once per month, sometimes we go for manicures and fizz and we do stuff.

        I mean I don’t make close friends with a lot of my colleagues but I have a few.

        I have a much wider circle of work acquaintances who are people I’ve got to know through work and stay on social terms with because it suits us. So they’re people I have coffee with / discuss work with and network around. They’re not close friends but they’re people I cultivate.

        It seems a lot of people on this site seem to either have very close friends or not want to speak and don’t seem to have so many tea point friends (so the people you socialise with over a cuppa or chew a work issue with over coffee but don’t spend time with outside work).

      2. Spicy Tuna*

        I know the way I think about it is wrong, but in 30 years of working, I’ve never been able to shake the feeling that being friends with co-workers is a no-no. My attitude makes zero sense, but I cannot shake that feeling, regardless!

    2. Ed 'Massive Aggression' Teach*

      Good GRIEF. There is no reason whatsoever why you can’t be friends with your coworkers, nor any reason why you can’t have both business and friendship.

      I have colleague-friends who I take 4am phonecalls from when they’re drunk and scared getting home (okay, that only happened once, but if it happens again – so be it), or whom I go clothes-shopping with after work, or for drinks and the cinema, and vent to about families and love lives etc. It’s absolutely fine – in fact, it’s lovely.

      What OP describes is obviously NOT fine, but in general it’s perfectly okay to have friends in work. Please chill out.

      1. Ed 'Massive Aggression' Teach*

        (You obviously don’t HAVE to have work friends if you don’t want to, of course. But please don’t act like your colleagues are doing something wrong when they absolutely are not.)

    3. Hroethvitnir*

      OK, you do get this is a you thing though, right? It’s totally neutral for you not to make actual friends with colleagues! It I’d also neutral for other people to become friends.

      I find the idea of having no personal interest in any of the people I spend a majority of my waking hours with very depressing, but I don’t think everyone has to be exactly like me.

      This is slightly ironic since the person training me at my new job just encouraged me to join the social club and my instinctive reaction is “run away”, but we’re all on a continuum!

  25. CubeFarmer*

    One thing that I’m not clear on in this letter: the manager is male, but what gender is LW? The reason I ask is that I wonder if the manager is being creepy, and this is a veeerry sly attempt to get to socialize with LW off the clock. I’m not clear if the manager is part of these off-hour gatherings or not.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I would genuinely be concerned about repeated comments that are sort of saying “people just don’t feel close to you / aren’t able to get to know you / find you guarded” if there was a big cultural gap like this. I’m sorry that’s happening.

      2. Dawn*

        I keep circling back to the fact that after learning this, I can’t help but feel deeply concerned about the fact that you’re the one being singled out for this. It feels a little too close to some of the other social biases Black folks face.

        1. OP_SocialBoss*

          Hi, I’m OP. Honestly, this is how I feel too at times. It has been frustrating navigating all of this, especially since it has only come from my manager. Everyone else has been a joy to work with, and I really do enjoy the work that I do.

          1. Dawn*

            I’m very sorry you’re dealing with this frustration; something like this can so easily ruin a job you otherwise love! Hopefully, you’ll come away from the comments with a lot of good ideas on how to proceed.

          2. BikeWalkBarb*

            Agreed that this additional information makes it so, so much worse in my mind. I’m so glad you sincerely have great relationships with others and enjoy the work itself when you’re having to negotiate this with all its layers of privilege and power.

            From your letter I’m assuming you’re the supervisor for this team. I’m wondering about a “supervisor to supervisor” approach. Something like, “I’m fortunate to feel pretty connected with the team individually and as a group. Besides our usual work interactions, that’s also thanks to the time together we have at work events or on business trips, and I have a meal with someone as the opportunity comes up when we’re in the same town. But of course you know as a supervisor that it’s essential to maintain a certain amount of objectivity and professional distance so I can evaluate people fairly. It wouldn’t be appropriate to be too buddy-buddy with one or another and raise questions of favoritism–just as you need to maintain a certain amount of distance from me as your direct report so you can evaluate my work fairly.”

            This feels like it possibly squishes the ick factor of him possibly hitting on you or trying to open the door to that possibility. It would seem hard for him to rebut a concern for your own professional standing and the people reporting to you receiving a fair evaluation. You’d have this to refer back to if he tries for any more personal attention.

            If they don’t report to you and he’s just pulling you in individually to talk again about his free-floating thoughts on the subject, plenty of others have given good advice about saying that without specifics you don’t have something you can address so it seems like something to put lower on the agenda for your 1/1s than other more concrete and immediate topics. (I can’t read Alison’s advice behind the paywall.)

            You may have already responded on this, but do you have decent HR? What would they do if you said something like this? “He’s singling me out for vague comments about this concern with no specifics. It happens repeatedly and I’ve asked for some form of feedback I could act on but he doesn’t provide that. No one on my team has ever indicated this is valid. I’m concerned about the effects on my evaluation and chances for advancement, and that it seems I’m being treated differently than other team members.” (I don’t think I’m hitting all the right notes with this wording–taking a shot at it.)

            Good luck and come back in future with an update, please!

            1. BikeWalkBarb*

              The older post that’s linked below Alison’s response here captures more of what I was getting at about objectivity and maintaining some social distance. I really, really like my team including my direct reports. That’s exactly why I wouldn’t want to socialize so much with them that we’re all buddies and I can’t be counted on to carry out my responsibilities as a manager. They deserve my professional best.

              https://www.askamanager.org/2018/09/my-team-doesnt-ask-managers-to-hang-out-with-them.html

        2. DJ Abbott*

          If you don’t mind my asking, what social biases are those? Is she expected to be more friendly or have fewer boundaries because she’s Black?

          1. Dawn*

            I was thinking more along the lines of microaggressions such as (but not limited to) Black people being seen as more aggressive, less approachable, more “furtive” – there’s a lot of studies and writings on the unconscious biases that white people in general and Americans in particular have about Black people, if you’d like to do more reading yourself.

      4. CubeFarmer*

        Yeah, I think that changes the context here. I’m not sure what the answer is, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that you’re being singled out AND there’s a gender/culture gap.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          I don’t think it’s a coincidence. He’s recently divorced and lonely. Looking around for female comfort and companionship, and OP is the nicest/most available/most convenient woman he knows.
          Keep your guard up, OP, and don’t let him get too close. If there’s an opportunity, steer him to a non-work activity where he can meet women.

      5. Hroethvitnir*

        Bah, my sympathies. I think it’s basically impossible for even the most well meaning people to be 0% influenced by race politics (referring to internalised biases we all have to look out for of that’s unclear to anyone), but it’s also likely a predominantly white workplace will be blind to it unless it’s super egregious. :(

  26. dulcinea47*

    Nah. I had a boss who tried to tell me this. First of all, there was a situation going on where one person was shunning me, so if she was present, I wasn’t welcome among my other coworkers. Second of all, I flat out told her, No, that’s not my job. It’s my job to be friendly and cordial and to work well with others as best I can. It’s not my job to be *friends* with them, and it doesn’t make my work less valuable that we don’t go on breaks together.

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      Good for you. I also had a boss like this. He told me that before I discuss anything work related, I must engage in socializing so that I can ask for what I need from them and they’d be more willing to provide it. This was a first introduction to the team–I was brand new so it wasn’t that I was known for brusqueness. This boss just required social lubrication and I told him I just expected them to do their jobs simply because it is their job, not because I asked about their cat before asking for the TPS report. Ridiculous.

        1. MassMatt*

          Yes but I recall when I worked in a call center in the northeaster US, we did get feedback from clients whose employees were in the southern US that we were too brusque, we came across as rushing their employees. And this is a regional difference, along with the job pressure to get through the calls and avoid people waiting in queue.

          When the management is going nuts because there are 40 calls in the queue and demanding everyone stop anything else they’re doing to answer them, yes, asking someone how they’re doing and actually having a conversation about it isn’t going to happen.

          This could be a regional or cultural difference, but the fact that the manager can’t articulate anything for the OP to do differently makes it very irritating.

          1. dulcinea47*

            Yes! to the part about articulating it. That was something I had to get at with the same boss. What do you want me to do and what improvement, exactly, do you want to see?

            Interesting about the call center, I worked in a couple, one where speed was important and one less so. I’m in the midwest so our normal pace is slower than NE, faster than the south.

          2. Orv*

            That’s interesting. I’m from the Midwest and I always found it awkward when call center employees would ask me things like “how are you doing?” or try to chat about the weather where I was. I always assumed this was an attempt by foreign call center workers to try to seem like locals. I imagined them having a screen up showing the weather in whatever part of the US they were pretending to be from.

            1. Ed 'Massive Aggression' Teach*

              Depends on the call centre. In mine we were encouraged to chat to callers, stay on the line etc. because it made them feel valued or like us more (so long as it wasn’t forced) – in fact, call length was one of our KPIs! And we were in the same country as our callers.

  27. a trans person*

    Honestly, especially after Alison’s insight that *he* wants to know the OP better, I’m finding this creepier and creepier. I would go to HR to help navigate it at this point.

  28. Spare Me*

    This has “32 pieces of flair” written all over it.
    Already attending all available and required loooong “social” events? Check.
    But it wasn’t moooore than what was “required”!

  29. MassMatt*

    I think this boss has created his own annoying narrative and agree with others that it’s telling that he has no actual suggestions for what to do.

    I do wonder whether it’s possible the boss heard “I don’t really know her” from someone on OP’s team, maybe long ago when OP took on the job? Maybe ask the boss “You keep saying my team doesn’t know me. I find I have good relations with my team members. Have you recently heard otherwise? Given the amount of time I spend with them (including 14 hours per day for a week at the recent conference) I don’t see what more I could be doing”.

    1. DJ Abbott*

      Maybe change it to “what more could I be doing?” So it doesn’t come off as a refusal.

  30. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    We’re currently doing our annual Gallup engagement survey and can I even tell you how much I hate the “I have a best friend at work” question, because it’s so terribly worded to get to their actual point. Every year we have to remind people, this question is not asking you if you work with your best friend.

    2. Nightengale*

      we had that question too but I didn’t realize it came from Gallop. I thought it was from some hospital specific survey. Or maybe they got it from Gallop.

      I have had close friends at work. But that is beside the point. The goal shouldn’t be “I have a best friend at work” but “the people I work with are friendly towards each other.”

      I also spend a lot of time working with neurodivergent kids who have social communication challenges on the difference between being “a friend” and being “friendly.” When school calls all the kids in the class “friends” that can lead to a lot of problems and confusion. Doesn’t work for first graders, doesn’t work in the workplace either.

      1. Dawn*

        For what it’s worth, a lot of neurotypical adults seem to have trouble with the difference between those two as well.

        OP’s boss, for example.

        1. Nightengale*

          yeah. I am actually more concerned with the downstream effects of the neurotypical adults telling the kids their classmates are all “friends” than the way the kids struggle with the concepts.

          1. Lisa Simpson*

            The worst example of this I’ve heard, was I was in the locker room after swimming and a mom and preschooler came through after swim lessons. Kid says “Mommy why are some people taking showers?” and the mom replies, “Well some friends shower after they swim and some friends go home and shower like we do.”

            Literally, mom referred to an entire women’s locker room full of random girls and women ages 3-75 as “friends.” This is nuts.

            1. BikeWalkBarb*

              And not very good teaching of boundaries for your child’s interaction with strangers, either. They’re not friends for your child until you know them and become friends.

        2. Polly Hedron*

          neurotypical adults…OP’s boss, for example

          How do we know that boss is neurotypical?

  31. Coverage Associate*

    The fact that the manager couldn’t provide examples to me suggests that OP is right that it’s about the late nights, but the manager knows that it would be crazy to say out loud that the problem is OP doesn’t hang out with the team past 10pm.
    There’s a range of how much sleep people need, what times of day they feel energized, and how draining being with coworkers is. Sounds like OP is a mismatch with at least her manager. With reasonable managers, that’s not a big deal, but this isn’t a reasonable manager.
    I might experiment with trying to match the team’s chronotype while traveling with them. Can OP skip morning meetings to make late nights? Maybe adjust her sleep schedule in advance of these trips? Totally unreasonable to have to, but sometimes you have to take unreasonable steps to make up for others being unreasonable.

  32. Keener*

    Ooof, that is rough OP. When I first started reading your letter I thought you were going to say you completely skipped everything but you are putting in a solid amount of time.

    I’ve had a lot of success framing things around different people need different things to thrive and that for me personally, I’ve learned that certain environments can be a bit overwhelming and I need a bit of downtime to bring my best-self. Therefore, to enable me to fully engage in the program the next day, I am not going to socialize until all hours of the night. Also, if there is a 20minute coffee break during the day sometimes I’ll stay and network but sometimes I will go for a solo walk/go to my hotel room to have a break.

    I’ve used the same framing to build support for sometimes working from home. My open plan office can be busy and overwhelming for me at times. I’ve noticed that when over stimulated I struggle to approach interactions with my colleagues with an appropriate level of patience and understanding. I now plan to work from home when I feel like I am constantly battling almost snapping at co-workers and it has made a huge difference.

    Good luck!

  33. Jam Today*

    I had a manager like this many years ago who was fixated to the point of obsession with my not hanging out with my coworkers outside of work, and not just any coworkers but specific ones. I had good friends unconnected with my job, I had an active social life, I traveled, I had a good time so its not like there was some outward sign that I was a recluse or something that might impact work performance. What I realized much later was that he wanted *access* to me. He wanted me to hang out with my immediate team because (my theory) they were gossips (one of the reasons I didn’t hang out with them!) and he wanted access to gossip about me, specifically.

  34. H.C.*

    No advice, just sympathy; I used to work in a role that’s heavier on conference/convention attendance and I’m absolutely drained after a full day’s work plus being voluntold to show up at the official networking mixer at end of each day. I would have no battery left to go out for dinner, (more) drinks, or other social activities with my colleagues afterward. I still give my 100% and do a great job representing my employer during the event & the reception – but I’m off the clock, I’m PEACING OUT!

  35. Pair of Does*

    Respectfully, I’m never reading The Cut again after that animal abuse article last week. They paid and shielded a cat abuser; I’m disgusted with them as a publication.

  36. NurseThis*

    My spouse had a manager who would host weekend barbecues that were mandatory. Work was discussed at these events. My spouse put in for overtime (his job was hourly). The manager freaked out but had nothing to say when my spouse said “you told me it was mandatory”.

    No more weekend barbecues after that.

  37. TheBunny*

    It seems it’s just me…but I have sort of a different take on this.

    OP mentions hanging out “at work events” and then leaving, sometimes meeting up with a local friend.

    There’s nothing inherently wrong with this and OP isn’t wrong to do it…BUT it kind of comes across that if the work event ends at 9pm, OP launches out the door as the clock strikes 9. This does (potentially) come across as only being willing to hang out with them if it’s during work hours.

    While I personally think he’s in the wrong, as was already said in the response, I’d make an effort to stay until 9:30 one night… and make sure he sees you there.

    I wonder if he’s reacting less to you not socializing and more that you are out, stage left, the minute being there is no longer “required”.

  38. DJ*

    Staff have all sorts of reasons for not attending after hours work social activities. This can range from health, difficult and lengthy commutes, getting back to a train station in time for the last bus, other commitments, introversion and as one poster advises difficult to hear in crowded environments!

  39. RedinSC*

    I know a lot of folks are interpreting the boss as wanting something more from OP, either emotional support or romantic, it’s unclear.

    However, I think the boss might really just be bad at communications and one person goes to him and says something along the lines of, “I just don’t know what OP wants of me”

    I had a boss who was a terrible communicator. Totally conflict averse. He kept saying he wanted something different from this report. But when I asked for specifics, like different how? He would just kind of wave his hands and says well, different.

    I didn’t change things up for a few years because come on, dude, if you can’t even articulate what you want, or at least don’t want, I’m just going to ignore you (since it didn’t count against me). But really, it was just because he was a terrible communicator. I decided one year to mix things up, I added images, more graphs, etc to the report, and he was just so happy that I did something different.

    So, OP, maybe what you could try is take him at his word that *someone* on the team doesn’t know you, and see what all you might be able to change up that could address this. Then tell him your ideas. LIke:
    1. Having an open office hour once or twice a month to invite anyone in to talk about anything that’s on their mind.
    2. organize a morning coffee talk
    3. brown bag lunch gathering where you talk about quarterly strategy or something the team might find interesting.
    4. I’m sure there are other ideas that don’t involve a crap ton of booze at 2am on a business trip…

    Organize some of these, keep at it for a quarter or two, tell him about it, invite him to the coffee talk or open office, etc, and then ask for additional feedback. I’ve made these changes, do you feel that this is making inroads into people knowing me better? If not, let’s brainstorm other ideas.

  40. Baker's Man*

    OP, given the discussion about the age, gender, race, and relationship dynamics in the comments above, here’s an idea for how you could respond if he brings this up again.

    Note that you haven’t heard any concerns from anyone else and he hasn’t been able to give you any specifics about how this is affecting your work. Then tell him something like, “If I didn’t know better I would think you were trying to date me. But obviously that’s ridiculous since we could never have that type of relationship.” Then reiterate that if he ever has some concrete examples of how you are creating problems in the work environment that you will be glad to listen and shift the conversation to another work topic.

    This would pretty clearly shut down any romantic interest without actually accusing him of anything untoward. And even if he doesn’t have interest in you, framing it this way might make him back off. And if he actually tried to argue that you could date him you would have clear grounds to go to HR.

  41. BellaStela*

    OP all I can say is I am sorry. Work boundaries and needing to recharge after a week of day and night with the team are key to staying sane and healthy. The advice here is really good from everyone and I hope this gets worked out.

  42. Raida*

    “the perception is that people don’t know you.”
    Well then he can be more specific.

    “Who, exactly, is this feedback coming from? I have good relationships with many people across many teams, so this is an outlier. If you do not provide me with the information I need then I cannot act on it.
    And to be clear, I will *not* act on vague feedback of “generally just xx more”. So we can agree and understand this is unfortunate and we *will not* see any changes from me, or you can give me specific, actionable, information from which I can work.
    Right? Right. I realise I haven’t been clear enough in the past so I hope you understand I now know I should have been this blunt in the first place, this is not me getting jack of the same message over two years.”

    If he doesn’t give me what I need – because it’s actually just him and his perceptions – then he can hear me say to his face that I will not do anything about this and his job as my manager is to do better when it comes to feedback, and he can be sad about it and I don’t care. If there IS ACTUALLY an issue then he can put on his big boy pants and actually tell me where it’s coming from – if it’s a misconception from someone I don’t work with or someone just being a snide gossip then it’s HIS JOB to loop back to them they are wrong and he doesn’t want to hear this spreading again.

  43. Anony8383*

    This is an office cultural thing and it is up to you whether you will just have to bear and grind it or move on elsewhere. I once had a boss who emphasized team social activities. whenever we had happy hour and you weren’t there, then she will call you out on it the next day. If there was a team lunch, you better make sure you were there or she will have her eyes on you for days. if you continued to not participate, then she would make your work life unbearable and find ways to get rid of you. Agree with Alison that those types of managers tend to make their coworkers their social life.
    However, as much as you dislike these social gatherings, I would advise that you go and stay long enough to show face and then leave early if you wish. What I personally found over the years was that the offices and teams that had more social gatherings and emphasized team bonds were some of the best coworkers I had and the more well run teams to work in. And that is coming from me as a true introvert. So you might think that these social gatherings are annoying and if you leave, you might think it would be better but I advise to think twice on leaving just to avoid the social events. You might find yourself trading one thing for a less appealing office culture elsewhere.

  44. Bananapants Modiste*

    Good God.
    I just realized what my former supervisor was getting at when she told me in an evaluation I was being difficult and unsocial, but couldn’t give me any examples of what I was doing wrong or how to improve.
    Said supervisor had no life outside of of work – she spent her meetings talking about how she couldn’t find anybody suitable on [dating app], her health, her travels… her EA and various colleagues were constantly joining her socializing and sports activities and were on her good side.

    I tried, but after hurting myself I refrained and my evalution stayed stuck on “unsocial”.

  45. Betty Betty very petty*

    The petty part of me wants to say, “Oh! I was under the impression these events were optional. Since they’re not, I’m going to have to get a check for all the time I spent there!”
    I don’t like all the emphasis on socializing, especially since you seem to do enough.
    Perhaps the next time your boss asks you about these events, have one thing you talked about, like “I talked with Jane, and found out she loves to ski! We had a really great conversation!”

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