my coworker won’t use women’s names

by Alison Green on August 27, 2024

A reader writes:

This is a weird low-stakes thing. I work in a small government office and we have a guy working here who’s been here for over 40 years and is within a year or two of retiring.

I like him well enough, but I’ve noticed he almost never calls women by their names. Any woman he speaks to, he addresses as just “you,” and if he’s talking about a woman who’s not in the room, he just says “her.” There are more women working here than men, and he always uses the men’s names or at least their surnames.

It makes it very confusing when I have no idea which “her” he means. I’m “her,” my closest colleague is “her,” our big boss is “her.”

I have no idea if he’s doing it deliberately/maliciously or if he just genuinely can’t remember any of our names, and thus no idea if I should be outraged or trying to do anything about it. If I prompt him, he usually will clarify who he’s talking about, after a bit of hesitation, and he’s not particularly sexist or anything beyond this. Is this just a weird quirk I should continue to be mildly amused and perplexed by, or should I be taking a more active stance in getting him to use women’s names?

Why not just ask him about it? “I’ve noticed you never refer to women by their names although you use men’s names. How come?”

And then maybe: “It’s really hard to know who you’re talking about when you don’t use names. Can you please use our names just like you do with men?”

Who knows why he’s doing this. Maybe he’s uncomfortable with women, maybe he sees us all as a generic block with no individuality, maybe he’s taking a stand against women being at work. I don’t know, but it’s weird and troubling and it doesn’t belong at work. You should feel free to call him out on it every time, which will make him look even weirder if he insists on continuing.

You might also point it out to your boss. I’m guessing she’s noticed, but saying it out loud might nudge her to address it herself.

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  1. goofball*

    “If I prompt him, he usually will clarify who he’s talking about, after a bit of hesitation”

    Okay, so he does know names. Unless he clarifies some other way (job title, clothing?) but I doubt it.

    This is big weirdo behavior.

    1. It’s A Butternut Squash*

      The hesitation made me wonder if he might know their names but not be confident that he’s correct. We all have those people who we always get their names right but are always worried we’re getting them wrong. It makes me think maybe he got a woman’s name wrong at one point and was called out.

      1. Stop Excusing This Garbage*

        So under this interpretation, he knows who men are without hesitation but has to think about who women are?

        That’s not actually better.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Yeah, at first I was wondering, well how many more women than men? Like if it’s 20 women and 3 men, the hesitation might mean he remembers 3 names and no more. Or like, if the men whose names he remembers have likewise been there decades and the women are more recent, but that still doesn’t account for that big a skew.
          Conscious thing or subconscious thing, it ain’t great.

          1. Banana Pyjamas*

            I agree that This actually depends on how many men vs how many women in the office and how siloed departments and even individuals are. I’ve worked in a 30 person office where at one point we only had three male employees and departments were siloed, on top of that I was working independently on a project. I knew the men’s names because there were only three, and a few people in the department immediately adjacent to me, plus two other managers. When my coworkers would mention anyone else I’d have to ask who they meant. I did eventually learn most people’s names, but I would have to think about it sometimes if it wasn’t someone in my immediate vicinity, especially during periods of turnover.

      2. tinyhipsterboy*

        That could be – I know I’m terrible with names. The fact it’s exclusively women, though… if we Occam’s Razor it, the most likely thing would be plain ol’ sexism. I feel like men would be more likely to call out an incorrect name. To be charitable, it’s entirely possible he doesn’t quite realize why it’s happening. Like, it could definitely be ingrained sexism rather than purposefully disregarding women’s names. Doesn’t make it much better, but at least it wouldn’t be malicious, I guess?

        2. Ellie*

          Are there any women he works closely with? If he remembers the name of at least one woman he works closely with, I’d assume it was a memory thing. If he can’t even do that, then it’s probably sexism. Either way though, its weird, and it’s going to come across as sexist so he should be aware of that.

      3. What_the_What*

        Ok, let’s say you’re correct. It still sounds like he’s okay with maybe calling “Bob” “Bruce” but isn’t okay with maybe calling “Cathy” “Christie” because he’s stereotyped that if he does so, a woman will wig out on him but a man won’t. It’s still not excusable because the reason behind is rooted in gender stereotyping women as unreasonable shrews about this sort of thing.

        1. Ally McBeal*

          I also am not so sure that women wig out on him more often than men do. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve swallowed my irritation when someone spells my name incorrectly (it’s 4 letters and it’s in my email signature). Women are socialized to be accommodating of mistakes.

        2. Hannah Lee*

          While it may be interesting to try to figure out the “why”, as you say, it’s still not excusable.

          And having his internal dialogue be “the womens get all hy-sterical at me if I call them by the wrong name” because of his own imagined reasons, like, all in his head, that … doesn’t make it any more understandable or acceptable.

        3. Csethiro Ceredin*

          Or maybe he has more hesitancy about using a woman’s first name than a man’s, and using just the surname isn’t as common with women, so he kind of ends up where nothing feels right to him.

          This is still not a good thing, of course, just trying to wrap my head around it.

      4. Star Trek Nutcase*

        I (F) can usually easily remember men’s faces and names, whereas women are harder for me. Wherever I’ve worked, men are usually 2/3 at least if not more. IME men’s appearances seldom change much except over 10 yrs or so, whereas women frequently change makeup, hairstyles and even clothing. And part of it is I’m checking out men more whereas women I’m not, so that early focus tends to set their names in my head.

        Regardless, I’d want someone to point this out to me if I only ever said “her”. Some of us can be oblivious and appreciate being clued in to behavior others find offensive (and regardless whether we decide to change that behavior).

        1. I guess my entire company was the real work wife the whole time.*

          “checking out men more whereas women I’m not”

          excuse me? perhaps, ah…work at a men’s library? :D

        2. Observer*

          That’s a bit of a different thing. It’s not just that he does not address women by name. He doesn’t use their names at all. When he’s talking about a woman who isn’t even in the room, he’ll refer to “her” like there is only one “her” in the place. It’s only once someone asks specifically who he is talking about that he manages to remember the name. That’s beyond odd. And it cannot be explained by any sort of face blindness or difficulty in matching names to slightly shifting faces.

          1. Neurodivergent in Germany*

            In my experience, many men tend to wear a uniform of sorts: clean clothes every day of course, but the same type and style of pants and tops.
            It reduces mental load a lot, not having to think about what to put on because everything matches.
            Women’s fashion is a lot more variable, the same staples don’t tend to be available every season

          2. Non non non all the way home*

            Wait, are you saying it’s okay to change my clothes and wear something different to work than I’ve been wearing every day for the past 40 years?

          3. RC*

            That made me lol a bit too, “and even clothing.” From day to day?? Of course, apparently I am one of those weird women who has multiple of the same shirts in different colors that I bought years ago because I hate thinking about things, heh. And especially since covid, my hairstyle has been ponytail, or slightly longer ponytail (good mask anchor).

            FWIW I’m probably worse with men’s names, although if you guess “Steve” around here there are good odds it’s not wrong. This definitely sounds like a pattern LW should name though.

        5. Ellie*

          Funny, I’m the opposite. I remember women’s names easier than men’s because they usually have a unique sense of style/haircut, etc. that I can associate with the person. There are also just way fewer of them in engineering, so the few that are here stand out. With men, I remember men I have worked with and those with a unique style, but a heck of a lot of men where I work have the same clipped haircut and wear the same blue shirt/dark pants combination every single day, and that does make it hard sometimes.

          But this is different, he knows all the men, and none of the women. Unless he exclusively works with me, that’s weird.

          1. KateM*

            The part that is not so much different in the sense that you write there are “way fewer women”, and OP writes “there are more women working here than men”.

            But in general, I also find women easier to remember – men so often have similar suits, similar haircuts, etc. I remember when I (F, WFH) went to meet my coworkers first time which was in a public setting – I thought that those two people (F and M) talking there could be my coworkers, and decided to sneak to around them to have a look at the woman’s face because I just wasn’t sure about the man. Only he saw me sneaking and recognized me.

          2. Emmy Noether*

            I’m like you! There are a lot more men in my field, and they’re all dressed and styled the same. I do know the names of my male colleagues that I work with, but it’s much easier to remember the women, even ones I only know tangentially.

            Which does make me think it’s the flipside of the “no unmarked woman” article – most of the men are unmarked, and therefore unmemorable.

            And I think we’re not alone. I’ve noticed people at conferences and whatnot remembering my name more easily than men’s.

        6. STW*

          I have the opposite problem — I have face blindness, so the way I distinguish people is more about the furniture — glasses, earrings, a favorite pendant, hair color, clothing style, etc. And women are far more distinctive. Men, particularly middle aged white guys with generic haircuts, are basically the same to me. (I can really only tell Matt Damon and Ben Affleck apart if they’re standing side by side, because one is taller.) So until I’ve been at a place for long enough to learn how they walk and where they sit…I’m in hell.

        7. Jess*

          Dude, totally. I’ve gotten a bit face blind in groups as I age, so if I see the someone rarely in person and they’ve changed their hair/makeup/look drastically, or even if they resemble another employee, I have often have to sit with it or wait till someone say oh that’s so and so. its weird and I worry that i seem checked out :/

      5. OMG! Bees!*

        There have been posts/letters where men wouldn’t be alone with women coworkers, so I would put him in similar weirdly sexist way. To be honest, I am not sure how to handle this aside from similarly not using his name, but I don’t think that would work.

      6. Seeking Second Childhood*

        “Our big boss” – If he doesn’t know the boss’s name that’s pretty pathetic.

        1. Skytext*

          Exactly! I don’t care if there are 30 women in the office and he can’t remember 29 of their names, he damn well should know the boss’s name! If he can’t do that, he has no business in the working world—he needs to retire and stay home.

      7. Jan*

        Unless there’s literally just a couple men who work there so it’s easy to remember them if being bad with names is an issue OP would see it when he’s talking about men as well as women. Selective “bad memory” isn’t actually bad memory.

      8. person*

        No, he’s just a misogynist. Stop blaming women for causing this by calling him out, because it sounds like you’re one too.

    2. Cassandra*

      Yeah, I’m interested to know exactly how he clarifies it. And absolutely agree on big weirdo behavior.

    3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      Or he has unflattering nicknames for some of the women and is afraid he will slip. That would also explain the pause, so he doesn’t blurt, PMS Pam. Or Looney Laugh Lisa.
      Yes, I’m speculating. But it is impossible.
      And she or her every. single. time. Why?

      1. RetailIsDetail*

        Yep, that makes sense. My thought was that he got called out for calling a coworker “sweetie” or “honey” or “sugar” and in retaliation he decided to never call a woman by her name going forward….

        1. Susannah*

          Well… if he was calling women “sweetie” or “honey,” he wasn’t calling them by their names then, either. I mean, is he just determined not to let women have names of their own?

      2. Boof*

        Or he’s not sure if he’s supposed to use “ms” or something – IDK, really just asking would be the most straightforward way of 1) possibly finding out what’s going on or else 2) putting on notice if it’s some kind of sexist thing (unconscious or conscious)

    4. restingbutchface*

      I would not be able to let this go. The spirit of my mother would possess me and I would hear her voice coming out of my mouth, “who’s she? The cat’s mother?”.

      No idea why the cats are brought into it, but I would not be able to stop myself.

      1. Agnes Grey*

        Hah, I was going to post something similar except it was my aunt I’d have been channelling!

      2. stratospherica*

        Haha, my mum says the exact same thing! Considering our family cat absolutely was counted as a third child, I was known to say “well, yeah”

    5. Bruce*

      I have the opposite problem, I switch names. I once walked into a cube shared by a petite Taiwanese lady and a tall blonde Dutch lady and addressed one by the other’s name. They looked at each other, rolled their eyes and both exclaimed “BRUCE!!!” It was mortification city! I also forget names sometimes in the most mortifying way possible, but neither failing is gender specific, I just have a weak name circuit. Now that we are all travelling again I’ve learned that when I’m going to meet someone I have not seen since 2019 I should review the meeting invite list and visualize the faces with the names.

    6. tina turner*

      Yes. But addressing it in the moment is effective. You both know what he just said. So say, “Who are you talking about? Why don’t you use her NAME?” Ask then. If he won’t answer you then bring it up every time. Till he figures it out. Addressing it “later” just makes it a bigger deal — bother him in the moment & he’ll get the point.

  2. Teacher, Here*

    A shot in the dark — I’m guessing he thinks he will mix up different women and be accused of being sexist (or has done this in the past.) I had a colleague who wouldn’t refer to the two Black women by their names because he had previously mixed them up several times, and someone pointed out that this can be a microaggression. Obviously, this was not the right response.

    1. Orv*

      I would never do this, but I do feel it. I once mixed up two Hispanic coworkers’ names, and spent the rest of the day worrying they thought I was racist and couldn’t tell them apart. I’m just bad at names in general!

      1. ThatGirl*

        Thankfully for me it was two white ladies, but my brain definitely mixed up two women with long dark hair who worked on the same team and I finally had to say to myself, ok, V has straight hair and D has curly hair….

        1. TechWorker*

          (Names changed but gist correct) we had so many Johns that I had to refer to one in my head as ‘John Dair with the hair’ (at the time the John in question had curly hair that stood out from his head). He’s since cut it short but somewhere in my brain the rhyme is still there..

        2. sheworkshardforthemoney*

          I work at a university and every fall we get a new influx of students. The young women tend to dress in the same style, with similar hairstyles and age range. When a group of them introduce themselves, there’s almost nothing to differentiate them from each other.

        3. Cook and bottlewasher*

          I once recruited the wrong tall brunette (of two) onto a committee because I got confused about which was which.
          She then stayed on it for the next five years.

        4. Rusty Shackelford*

          And that’s why some people started calling me by my coworker’s name when I straightened my hair.

      2. Justme, The OG*

        I once accidentally dead named one of my coworkers. To her boss, who corrected me. Only I wasn’t talking about her, I was talking about another coworker with a similar name.

          1. A Library Person*

            I think the idea is that Justme was referring to their coworker John, but their boss assumed they meant Jane, whose deadname/birth name happens to be John. In this case, the boss may have outed and definitely did use a deadname/birth name for Jane.

            1. Eigenvogel*

              That’s what I assumed. My real first name is the same as my wife’s deadname which occasionally leads to awkwardness.

                1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                  Fergus’s parents named him Jackie.

                  Justme said Jake and boss thought it was Fergus’s old name.

                  I think the only way around that is to repeat it identifying Jake by last name & title or department.

                2. Jaydee*

                  I think Justme has two coworkers: Jane, who used to be called John, and Jake. Justme was talking about Jake and meant to say Jake but instead called him John. Boss thought Justme was referring to Jane by her deadname (John). Boss said something like “don’t you mean Jane?” to indicate Jane’s correct name, and Justme said “no, I actually mean Jake.”

          2. Cobol*

            Samantha and Shamus work at the same company. Samantha now identifies as a woman, and used to identify as a man named Shawn.

            Justme was talking about something to do with Shamus, but accidentally referred to him as Shawn.

      3. LoraC*

        As long as you aren’t rude or dismissive if someone corrects you, it’s fine.

        I was one of 3 Asian women at a small company, and one asshole regularly confused us and was dismissive when we called it out. Like straight up saying “you all look the same.” One had long hair and glasses, one was tall with a short bob cut, and one always wore her hair in a ponytail.

        Couldn’t touch him because he was a nepo hire and his mother was a director.

          1. LoraC*

            He was actually already on probation when he was hired. He had a criminal history involving drug use and domestic violence. It was part of his probation deal that he needed to show gainful employment, so his mom pulled strings and got him hired.

            Then he got in a DUI, was jailed for 6 months, had his license suspended for 2 years, and had to wear an ankle tracker. That bumped him up to a felon, but he still kept his job.

            That was how much influence his mom had. There was no fixing that place so everyone who could just left.

      4. jasmine*

        in this case, the best thing to do is just apologize! “I’m sorry I got your name(s) mixed up, that was my bad”

        1. Orv*

          You’re probably right. I didn’t get there because I panicked and didn’t want to draw further attention to it.

      5. Tenebrae*

        Ha ha, I feel that. I once mixed up two women who were both Middle Eastern (they were both new, superficially similar and I had only met them briefly beforehand) and felt guilty for months. I was subsequently rather pleased when I also mixed up two white ladies and confirmed that I am just kind of dumb.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          LMAO why is this so relatable! Not a microaggression, just a brain malfunction.. we are still okay!

      6. tinyhipsterboy*

        ughhhhhhhh I feel you. I’m bad with names and faces, especially if it’s someone I’m not already familiar with (IRL or in media). Sometimes I blurt out the wrong name even if I know for sure what someone’s name is, too. oof.

        I get people mixed up all the time, but my partner always warns me to be careful because if I happen to do it in earshot of the wrong person, it could cause a huge problem. Doesn’t matter if it’s just me being bad with names if it comes across as a microaggression :x

        1. Orv*

          Yeah, that’s what I fear. There’s only so much I can do about being bad with names and faces, but people are always going to interpret it as disrespect.

        2. Worldwalker*

          I like conventions with nametags. I think if I were the Ruler of All Space and Time, I’d mandate that everyone must wear nametags, so I can keep my Imperial Feet out of my Imperial Mouth.

          2. Seeking Second Childhood*

            If I become Ruler of Space and Time before you, I will have created the office of Herald so everybody approaching my person shall be announced by name. :)

      7. Elizabeth West*

        I did this with two Indian colleagues. I had only heard each of their names once in passing, and both names sounded kinda similar when pronounced correctly. Think Barb and Marge.

        I was very embarrassed, but Barb (not her real name) laughed and said she didn’t remember everyone’s name either. There were also two white men about the same age, height, and build as each other whom it took me ages to get straight. Part of the issue was that we all had colleagues who were mostly remote, didn’t have a picture on Teams (or it was an old pic), and when they showed up in the office, no one knew who they were!

    2. PieAdmin*

      I have done this at work with various categories of people who are similar in age and job title: 2 Indian guys, 2 older white guys, and 2 younger white guys. Only the 2 older gentlemen look even remotely alike so I’m not sure why I keep doing this. It doesn’t seem to be specifically racial either; we have lots of younger Indian guys and other white guys who I don’t mix up. I notice I haven’t done it with women though, even though we have 3 different people here named Tiffany.

      1. PhyllisB*

        One of my daughters had two close friends named Brittany, one white, one black. We never knew which one was being referenced in conversation. (Not a problem when they were together.) One of the girls told us to refer to her as Black Brittany. I never felt comfortable doing that, even though she wasn’t there to hear it.

        1. pope suburban*

          First initial of last name, maybe? Though that doesn’t always work. One of my close friend in high school had the same name, the same last initial, the same hair/eye color, and also wore glasses. Very difficult to tell us apart, because for some reason it occurred to none of us to specify the ending of our name, which was spelled differently despite being phonetically identical.

          1. NotAnotherManager!*

            I went to HS with two girls with the same name except one’s middle name was Lee and the other was Leigh. They ended up Sarah-Lee-double-E and Sarah-Leigh-with-a-G because high schoolers do love a good rhyming nickname.

        3. PieAdmin*

          Yeah, that would have made me uncomfortable too. I probably would have made it worse by saying it to the tune of “Black Betty” by Ram Jam.

        4. Rusty Shackelford*

          My kid called a few of her friends by their last name for that reason. There was also the issue of marching band, which had enough members with the same unisex name that you couldn’t have Logan S and Logan G, or even Boy Logan and Girl Logan, you had to have Boy Clarinet Logan and Girl Clarinet Logan.

          (And then there was the nightmare of Ann Marie Jones and Anne With an E Marie Jones… ay yi yi…)

          1. Sarah in Boston*

            That just brought back marching band memories my freshman year in high school: Sarah Piccolo*, Sarah Sax, Sarah Horn, Sarah Twirler 1, and Sarah Twirler 2.

            *this was me

    3. i drink too much coffee*

      I used to work in a small government agency (maybe 100-150 people total in the agency) and our agency head COULD NOT tell my coworker and I apart. We both worked there for close to five years, and we did have the same job, on the same team, and were really close friends and were together a lot, and we did both happen to be white women, but the similarities ended there. We found it funny and just responded to each other’s names based on the context whenever she referred to one of us, but honestly, after 5 years, it was really strange.

      In that same workplace, a manager just for some reason couldn’t call my manager by her correct name. She got it wrong every. single. time. In emails, in person. Multiple people corrected her and she did not care. So weird.

    4. Butterfly Counter*

      Or maybe he’s uncomfortable with familiarity? Like he feels that calling them by their first names is too personal unless he works closely with them (OP says he sometimes calls male coworkers by their last names), but also isn’t sure about which honorific to use with last names (Mrs., Ms., or Miss). He might have been lectured about this in the past and isn’t sure how to move forward.

      Obviously, he should just figure it out, but as a person who is oh so bad with names, I get the immediate executive dysfunction when trying to remember a name, but forgetting what that person prefers to be called.

      1. Observer*

        Like he feels that calling them by their first names is too personal unless he works closely with them (OP says he sometimes calls male coworkers by their last names)

        And that’s a key piece of this. He could just as easily use last names. As for the honorific, he’s not a newbie from the 50’s whose time traveled to today. He should know that he can use Ms. if her refers to guy as Mr. And if uses just last name, he can do that for women too.

        1. dot*

          Idk this feels a bit unfair, I think there’s a lot of people who don’t necessarily know the current default honorific. I feel like I’m recalling a pretty recent AAM post addressing exactly that. I was just referred to as Mrs. Lastname in an email within the past week or so from someone I’ve never talked to who would have no idea of my marital status. I can definitely see this possibly being an explanation for this weird behavior.

          1. Another Kristin*

            If he’s worried about Miss vs Mrs, he should just say Ms – the whole point of Ms is that it applies to any woman regardless of marital status. You can certainly say “I prefer Mrs/Miss” or what have you to someone who addresses you as Ms Dot, but at this point it’s just a generic honorific for a woman.

            Now not wanting to use honorifics because you don’t want to assume someone’s gender and call them Ms instead or Mx or Mr or whatever they prefer? That’s a whole other thing, but it doesn’t sound like this guy’s problem is that he’s overly sensitive to gender issues.

          2. Orv*

            “Ms” has been the default in the US for a solid few decades now. I gather it’s less well accepted in the UK, which is more conservative about forms of address, but it doesn’t sound like the person we’re talking about is a recent immigrant.

            1. LarryforPM*

              Not really, I use Ms and it’s accepted perfectly normally. The whole ‘only divorced women use Ms’ has been left behind.

            2. londonedit*

              Definitely not true, ‘Ms’ is perfectly well accepted in the UK and has been for decades now. Every form will have at the very least ‘Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss’ as options.

            3. Media Monkey*

              Ms is totally fine in the UK. i’m married and use my maiden name for work. feels odd to be “Miss” but i’m not Mrs Maidenname. So i’ve been Ms for nearly 20 years and no one has ever queried it.

          3. Observer*

            I think there’s a lot of people who don’t necessarily know the current default honorific.

            Ms. is hardly a recent development. It’s been in *common* use for decades. And in the workplace, at least since the 1980’s it’s been used in situations where you don’t know / care about a woman’s marital status or as the default.

            1. Lydia*

              I had a teacher 40 years ago who went by Ms. It’s time for people to retire the “recent changes” excuse.

      2. PH*

        I would bet money it’s that he feels instinctually uncomfortable using a woman’s first name as opposed to calling her Miss X or Mrs Y or Ms Z, but he also realizes that it’s outdated and/or inappropriate to use this type of honorific for women, but he hasn’t overcome the discomfort so this is his workaround. Kinda like how when you don’t know what to call your friends parents you just don’t call them anything. Obviously that doesn’t make it right, he’s gotta overcome it, but I bet it’s the reason.

        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          That was my first thought ( before I made my “unkind nickname comment”) He doesn’t feel comfortable with first names (hence the last name for men. But doesn’t feel like he could use just a last name for a woman.
          For the record. I wouldn’t care. Id just be impressed if you can pronounce my last name properly.

          1. Paint N Drip*

            Well this could mean ‘Hey you, yes you there! Fetch me my xeroxes!’ or it could just be ‘can you bring me the X report?’

        1. Lydia*

          It feels like a version of people only referring to trans folk by their names so they can avoid acknowledging their pronouns. It’s not the same as misgendering with the wrong pronouns, but it <i.is another stop on the continuum of not acknowledging them.

    5. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

      Could be. I have a boss who mixes up lots of names, male, female, nonbinary, and inanimate (like software or company names), or sometimes can’t come up with a name at all, but a woman on another team who didn’t know him that well once complained to me that he clearly thought of her as interchangeable with the other female engineer on her team. She felt better when I told her he does that all over the place.

      I can see how someone could get the wrong takeaway from a message like that (although my boss didn’t; his response when I told him was that he would look for opportunities to interact with her more, both so that he would have a slightly better chance of remembering her name, and so that she would know him as something other than “the guy who can’t be bothered to remember my name”).

      1. Observer*

        I have a boss who mixes up lots of names, male, female, nonbinary, and inanimate (like software or company names), or sometimes can’t come up with a name at all,

        That’s the key thing. Your boss is bad at names. *All* names. This guy has a problem only with women’s names. That’s far odder.

        1. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

          Sorry, I was unclear. What I mean is that this guy might, like my boss, be equally bad at all names. He’s just never been called on it being sexist, except when confusing women’s names.

          When my boss mixes up Bob and Joe, Joe never comes to me and says, “He treats me like I’m interchangeable with this other man, and that feels sexist.”

          But when he kept mixing up Sarah and Megan, Megan came to me and said, “He treats me like I’m interchangeable with this other woman, and that feels sexist.”

          If something similar happened to the guy in this letter, he might have gotten the takeaway that it’s okay to mix up men’s names, but not women’s. So to avoid ever having that experience of mixing up a woman’s name again, he just kills a fly with a cannonball by never ever saying a woman’s name unless he’s made to. And then he hesitates to make *absolutely* sure he gets it right. Whereas with men he’s just chill about the possibility of making a mistake, because no one’s ever treated it like a big deal when he does. And so he just goes around blithely saying whatever man’s name comes to mind and gets it right most of the time. What he doesn’t realize is that his solution–treating women differently in a really obvious way–is worse than the problem.

          I’m not saying this is what’s happening! I’m saying it’s one possible scenario. Maybe he thinks saying a woman’s name is an act of intimacy that should be reserved to the man she belongs to, like the guy who refused to talk to a woman if a man was with her. Maybe it’s a protest against women in the workplace. Who knows!

            1. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

              Yes, that’s what I’m saying. In the hypothetical scenario I’m describing, he uses men’s names because he’s not afraid of making a mistake. He avoids women’s names because he’s afraid of making a mistake. The chances of him making a mistake are the same, but the consequences of making a mistake with women’s names are higher.

              1. Observer*

                but the consequences of making a mistake with women’s names are higher.

                So it’s just a different form of sexism. Because this is simply not true. Also, what the LW describes is not someone who is bad with names. Somehow he manages to use men’s names without mixing them up.

                1. Worldwalker*

                  I think the point is that the guy in question thinks men don’t care what you call them as long as it’s not late for dinner, but women want to be treated as distinct individuals.

              3. Irish Teacher.*

                As well as being a form of sexism, that would also imply that he is more concerned that somebody might tell him off than he is about upsetting somebody. The consequences of making a mistake with names are pretty low in all cases. Worst case is somebody reacting like you are stupid and doing a “really?! My name is x” and even that is pretty unlikely.

      2. Gumby*

        I mean, my own parents not infrequently call me by a name other than the one they gave me. Mostly one of my sisters’ names. When I was a kid once they ran through all of their kids’ names, maybe a few of their own siblings, and a pet or two the default names we used were Fred/Gertrude. (Note: no one in our family was actually named Fred or Gertrude. That was the whole point.)

        Between that and being terrible with names myself, plus freezing up and second-guessing myself when faced with needing to introduce people such that I will blank even on the name of someone I’ve known for multiple years, I get where this guy might be coming from. Though when I avoid using names I avoid them across the board. I am assuming the co-worker is more familiar with the men and not as scared of brain farts when referring to them maybe? Still not good but not necessarily malicious.

        1. Spicy Tuna*

          HAHA, I am the only girl in our family (until recently when my cousin and his wife had a girl baby). My mother runs through all of our male relative’s names until she comes up with mine!

        2. Quill*

          You know you have a big family when your grandparents scold you by running through the names of all their daughters, and all their grandaughters, in descending order before they make it to you to scold you!

          (I’m number 8 on that list.)

          1. NotAnotherManager!*

            My granddad used to do the same thing! Not necessarily scolding, but I got called MaryLindaJoeAmyDaveyJenniferMyName* all. the. time. He did always land on the right name, though!

            *No one’s real name, obviously.

          2. Oompy Loompy*

            I’m of Vietnamese heritage and back when my grandparents had literally up to a dozen kids, my parents and their siblings would be referred to their order of birth.
            There was just so many kids back then that my own grandparents couldn’t remember everyones names.
            So if my grandma shouted out for No.6 I knew she was asking for my Dad.

          3. owen*

            you don’t need a big family for this, my parents do it with three names total (not including their own)!

        3. Cathie from Canada*

          I told my husband — when we’re out somewhere and somebody starts talking to me and I don’t immediately introduce you, PLEASE understand that it means I have forgotten either their name or yours, so PLEASE just seize on a minor pause in the conversation and say jovially “Oh by the way, I’m Cathie’s husband Bill!” and I will be eternally grateful.

        4. All things considered, I'd rather be a dragon*

          As a teenager, I was introducing my best friend to my cousin, when both knew exactly who the other person was, but were physically meeting for the first time. I was going for extra formal, and blanked out on my cousin’s last name. My male cousin. On my dad’s side of the family. My best friend nearly fell over laughing.

      3. Polyhymnia O’Keefe*

        his response when I told him was that he would look for opportunities to interact with her more, both so that he would have a slightly better chance of remembering her name, and so that she would know him as something other than “the guy who can’t be bothered to remember my name”

        Also, that’s a great response from your boss.

        2. Gillian*

          My granmother had cousins who were named Primo and Secondo, first and second in italian. I’m terrible with names and we had a new hire in my department who’s name was similar to the person he was replacing. I called him by his predecessors name several times-although luckily not to his face.

          1. Worldwalker*

            There’s a long tradition of that in Italy. Look at ancient Rome. Praenomens were not uncommonly birth order. The poet Horace, for example, was actually named Quintus Horatius Flaccus I’m not sure if his parents numbered their earlier sons, too, or just ran out of good names after the first four.

            (all his sisters would have been called Horatia at that point in history)

    6. Alicent*

      I once forgot a coworker’s name for two weeks MONTHS after she started. I ended up going on an undercover op to figure it out without her knowing. Thankfully it was successful. I’m just really terrible with names.

      1. Orv*

        I often resort to the “could you email me that so I have it for reference?” dodge when someone requests something of me and I can’t remember their name.

        1. BigTenProfessor*

          I once forgot a guy’s name while on a date and had to ask the waitress to ID him when he ordered a drink and then discretely let me know near the ladies’ room.

      2. Huttj*

        I couldn’t remember a friend’s name, who I had encountered off and on for years. Then we were on a team for a social deduction game. I went to facebook during the “hang out before game actually gets going’ phase and read her name over and over until it’s been seared into my brain and actually sticks.

    7. Yeah...*

      He could have considered all of these answers and concluded he may not receive any grace for making an error.

      There are comments here, and elsewhere, say that any given day that you should never made a mistake in the first place and if you do an apology isn’t good enough because you should have known a macroaggression, proper honorific, misgendering, deadnaming, etc.

      Since you don’t know who is going to offer grace, some people just err (awkwardly) on the side of extreme caution and say nothing.

      I say this as a Black woman who has been mixed up for another Black and mixed up other people.

      1. Yeah...*

        Arrggh!!! I would love to be able to edit my comment. Typos!

        “I say this as a Black woman who has been mixed up for another Black woman and mixed up other people who registered as similar but not identical in my mind. “

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        Honestly, I think that if somebody is working on the premise that “if I make a mistake, somebody might tell me off, so I’m going to deliberately treat women and men differently,” they are more concerned with the “being told off” part than the “committing a microaggression” part.

        In my opinion, that idea, that “women might be cross with me if I say the wrong thing, so I’d better just treat them all as a monolith and differently from how I treat men” is a form of sexism in and of itself. It’s both assuming negative intent from women – I don’t know which of them will judge me and be unreasonable about it – and also acting like being told you committed a microaggression and being criticised for it is worse than being the victim of the microaggression. It would be making sexism about him.

        Yeah, there are people who overreact, but…it’s not really all that common and I do think it would be a bit ridiculous to refuse to address any woman by her name because “I might get it wrong and then she might think me *gasp* sexist and might judge me forever!!” It’s possible, but not very likely.

        I think it is different in conversations in places like here, since people tend to be talking hypothetically and I suspect a lot of those who say “an apology is not good enough” are not thinking of things like calling somebody by the wrong name or even using a term like “honey” or “pet.” They are thinking of people doing really egregious things and then acting like “well, I told her I was sorry, in a tone that strongly implied I was placating her. It’s her problem now if she doesn’t pretend it never happened and feel completely safe around me.”

        In my experience, the people who do “I was just afraid to talk to her in case I was inadvertantly sexist and was never forgiven for it” are usually not really afraid at all; they are making a protest. If they are not allowed to be overtly sexist, they’ll ignore women.

        I get being worried about potentially hurting somebody but it should be about being afraid of hurting them, not about being afraid somebody will think less of you because you did.

        1. Susannah*

          Exactly. It’s like the men who complain that they can’t say anything to a woman at the office out of fear of being accused of sexual harassment (like – you don’t know the distinction between “nice dress” and “nice tits?”). Or the ones who claim to have been punched by a woman after they opened a door for her.
          It’s just a way of saying, oh, women are so quick to get offended over stuff that isn’t offensive, so I’m the victim because I’m flummoxed over how to deal with it.

      3. Orv*

        I understand being in that bind, but if that’s it he’s chosen the worst possible way to respond to it.

      4. a trans person*

        I feel way more threatened by comments like yours than I do by any coworker who has ever accidentally deadnamed or misgendered me.

    8. Spicy Tuna*

      OMG, I can relate to this. I am a property manager at a huge complex that encompasses several buildings. In the space of 10 weeks, four women moved into the same building, into the same apartment line (ie: apartment 8G, 5G, 10G and 3G). All four women are Black and single, and while they don’t look particularly similar, they all have virtually identical first AND last names. I am relatively certain that they don’t know each other (except for maybe running into one another in the mailroom or elevator, etc). I’ve just been addressing them as “ma’am” because while *I* know if I were to mix them up it’s because of their similar names and apartment numbers, but since *they* don’t know each other, if I mix up their names, I’m going to come off as racist.

      1. Hroethvitnir*

        Oh god. The fact I seldom use names in conversation is a blessing and a curse in that I could probably be friendly for years without it coming up, but also: zero practice.

  3. Sunshine Gal*

    I am petty and would pointedly refuse to engage with him until he used my, or my female colleagues names.

    he is gross and this is blatantly exist, regardless of his intent.

  4. Kimmy Schmidt*

    Something about this letter makes my skin crawl in a way I can’t quite put my finger on.

    1. SpaceySteph*

      Its got kind of the same vibe as those covenant Christian types who won’t be alone in a room with a woman ever.

      1. newfiscalyear*

        That was my first reaction -that there is a religious element to his refusal to use their names.

        1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

          I had a Muslim coworker in the past who got very weird about women’s names (he also would not share an elevator with a woman unless there was another man there, or shake a woman’s hand). It became very obvious, and awkward, very quickly.

      2. Bookworm*

        I hangout somewhere online where the membership is overwhelmingly male. The following is what I have seen many guys say repeatedy: There are so many guys who are not religious who will not engage with women at work because they don’t want to be accused of sexual harassment. It’s all ages. They will only communicate via email so there is a record. They will not talk with a woman unless someone else is present and if anything personal comes up, they leave.

        1. VaguelySpecific*

          Yeah that isn’t a new thing. When my dad supervised people he would only do performance reviews with his secretary in the office with him to have a witness if anyone accused him of something….and this was 25 years ago…

        4. Orv*

          This is gross, and feels like deliberate overreaction as a form of protest, almost a form of weaponized incompetence. It reminds me of the guys who react to being told about consent by writing up a contract they want any sexual partner to sign.

      3. Dust Bunny*

        Yeah, kinda this. Or he thinks of women as a vast faceless pool instead of a bunch of individuals and either can’t be bothered or is uncomfortable paying even that much attention.

      4. ampersand*

        This was my first thought. Like he can’t acknowledge women because it’s too personal or something. That’s obviously not okay, especially at work.

        My second thought was maybe it’s some kind of early memory loss—but I have a parent with dementia, and to me this doesn’t read like memory loss. Yeah, he takes a moment to think of their names when prompted, but he can recall them *and* he doesn’t do it with men’s names.

      5. Willow Sunstar*

        Yeah, I was wondering if this is a thing some churches are doing now? I’ve been out of the loop for a while, so I wouldn’t know.

    2. Observer*

      It’s making my skin crawl too.

      I think that it’s because this is probably the tip of an iceberg of sexism that the LW may not be seeing. It’s one thing to not want to use women’s first name. But *no* name? That’s weird. The hesitation makes it even worse, because all of the reasons I can think of are just really disrespectful of women.

      The only exception I can think of is the beginnings of a mental decline. Which is horrifying in a different (and much sadder) way.

    3. duinath*

      Yeah, my only response to this is “ew”. I don’t know what his reasons are, I don’t care. Using men’s names and not women’s names is just…. ew.

    4. Looper*

      It could be the fact that this guy has been allowed to camp out in Fort I Don’t Say Women’s Names since 1985 without issue. That definitely grosses me out!

    5. adlk*

      For me, I could imagine it being a pattern that I go a long time without noticing, but once it does click, I would find it both maddening and creepy :/

    6. juliebulie*

      To me it sounds like he doesn’t think of women as people. Because it is a pretty normal thing to call people by their names. Men are people and women are women.

    7. Numbat*

      For me it made my skin crawl because this letter appeared the same day I read that the sound of women’s voices is being outlawed in public in Afghanistan. Sort of has the same vibe. This is obviously my emotionally coloured response, not an indication the guy is in the Taliban… but it’s hard to not be perpetually dismayed by *gestures wildly at everything*

    8. Hroethvitnir*

      Yeah. I do think there is a wide swathe of possibilities here from benign (probably with at least a little unconscious misogyny) to being secretly awful, but it did make me super uncomfortable to imagine dealing with.

    1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

      Maybe there was an overabundance of Christies or something at one time and he noped out trying to figure it out. Which would be fascinating because usually that’s an issue with men’s names, not the other way around.

      1. VaguelySpecific*

        It’s been my experience that men tend to default to calling each other by last name if there are multiple “John’s” that work together. I’ve rarely seen that practice done with women tho.

        1. Orv*

          I’ve noticed that about the culture in general. It’s “Trump”, not “Donald”, and “Biden”, not “Joseph”; but it’s “Kamala”, not “Harris” and “Hillary” not “Clinton.” I think it’s a subtle form of disrespect that’s so ingrained we don’t question it.

          1. Space Needlepoint*

            I had a sociology professor take the entire class to task for doing this in a paper.

            1. GenX Enters the Chat*

              When I taught Art History I did the same thing. O’Keeffe was “Georgia”, Kahlo was “Frida.” But Pablo was “Picasso,” and Edgar was “Degas.” Probably 75% of my students did this. I had to call out classes every single semester.

              I also had a whole come-to-jesus talk about why they had to call me “Dr.” and not by my first name (they called the dudes Professor and the women by our first names, like clockwork).

              2. Aglet*

                So weird! All my college professors introduced themselves to the class by their first names, so that was what I called them (even though that felt weird after all those years of K-12, where we never used teachers’ first names). Now my kids are in college and some professors prefer being called by their first name, some prefer last name, some are fine with either, but all digital communication includes first and last name – not just whichever the professor prefers – so it’s a lot more to keep track of than when I was in school.

              3. hmm*

                As classified staff, I enjoy not calling instructors by their titles, because we are coworkers, not feudal subjects. Folks in academia like to pretend there is no socioeconomic prejudice or organizational injustice, but many ‘professors’ reinforce it as part of their hierarchical due. I guess students are easier to lord over.

                1. Dr. Rebecca*

                  …um, or we earned a doctorate and dislike female titles, so we’d prefer to be called by the proper title if someone’s going to use it at all. My students can call me Rebecca, but if they’re going to use a title, it’s Dr. or Prof., I’m not Mrs., Miss, or Ms.

                2. Your Former Password Resetter*

                  Way to miss the entire situation and the point they were trying to make.

                3. bleh*

                  Or we earned a terminal degree for and reason and we don’t wish to continue fighting with 18 year old boys about Mrs. Miss and Ms.

                4. Orv*

                  That hasn’t been my experience, really. I’m university staff and I’m on a first-name basis with all the professors in my department. Calling them “Professor so-and-so” or “Doctor so-and-so” would come off as excessively formal, since I’m not one of their students.

                  I’m on the west coast, though, maybe this is one of those regional divides?

                5. amoeba*

                  Yeah, for us it was generally first names or last names, but without title. For both men and women alike, luckily! “Professor X” was only done in, like, a first e-mail to somebody I’d never previously spoken to. But at least in my field and country, it’s still pretty normal to be Mr/Ms X, even though you are, technically, a doctor or professor.

                  But if people did that in a gendered way, I’d be annoyed, too! (I do remember one instance though where my students did that to my colleague and myself, pretty certain it was by accident though – they called us by our first names because we were on very friendly terms and worked together daily, so it was normal. They wrote “Dr. X” for the creepy male guy nobody liked. Pretty sure it was not because they respected him *more*, but rather the opposite..)

                6. KatieP*

                  Higher Ed staff, as well. It’s a mixed bag here. Some departments require that anyone with a PhD be addressed as, “Dr.” regardless of the degreeholder’s personal preference. That’s often the result of an older mindset in either the Dept Chair/Head, or Chief of Staff.

                  In our office, the rule is, “Call people what they want to be called.” I’ve got faculty who prefer to be addressed by title, and faculty that prefer to be addressed by first name. I’ve got one faculty member with multiple PhDs who firmly corrects anyone who doesn’t address her by her first name.

                7. LL*

                  Arguing that students shouldn’t refer to their professors as “professor” or “doctor” is a wild take. Coworkers obviously shouldn’t, but the student/teacher relationship is different.

              4. Hroethvitnir*

                This is always such an interesting one for me, because I really enjoy that we use first names for *everyone* in academia here in Aotearoa (there might be exceptions, but seriously, ime it would be super weird to call anyone “dr” and we extra don’t use “professor”) – nor do most people use titles for any MDs they are seeing.

                But if people are calling men by their titles, *damn right* they should be extra sure women get their title! It’s embarrassing what a blind spot it is for so many.

          2. Happy Camper*

            Woah… this just clicked for me. Obviously misogyny flavoured but could it come from an era where men did sports and called each other by their last name? Fascinating.

            1. Bella Ridley*

              Where do you live that people (not just men) no longer play sports? I find it’s still hugely common…and regardless of whether people call each other Jonesy and Smitty on the ice/field/court, they still name them appropriately when the situation calls for it.

              2. Happy Camper*

                Haha no I mean from a time that it was assumed sports were for men and not women. Not that people are no longer doings sports.

            2. owen*

              i once worked in a team where i was the only afab and everyone called everyone, including me, by their surname. i never really noticed. this was definitely driven by them being a relatively sportier bunch, it wasn’t common across the company.

              i then moved to a (different company) team where i was the only afab and they called each other by surname and me… by my first name. i ABSOLUTELY noticed this.

          3. SnowyRose*

            Eh, I don’t know that that’s accurate. It’s Hillary to distinguish her from Bill, and the use of Kamala instead of Harris has always seemed to need to be a deliberate choice. From a public brand view, it really helps to distinguish her from a sea of Harris’ (not a unique last name) and that she isn’t another white male candidate. Nancy Pelosi, Gretchen Whitmer, Kathy Hochul, Maura Healey, Abigail Spanberger–the list goes on–are all usually referred to by their last name.

            1. ThatGirl*

              It’s still a media choice to refer to her as Kamala and not Harris in a headline where it’s clearly about her, specifically.

            2. The Kulprit*

              Patients refer to the male doctors I work with as Dr. last name (unless they’re actually friends) and the female doctors (DOs and MDs) by only their first names. The rules they’re operating by — intentionally or maliciously or not — are clear.

                1. Nesprin*

                  I work in an academic research institution (USA) and run into this all the time. Its Dr. MaleCoworker and Hey Lady for me and my female coworkers.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                I will say, though, that I don’t think we do it with Elizabeth Warren, but she may be the exception that proves the rule.

                Actually we don’t do it with Nancy Pelosi either so I don’t know. But it’s weird.

                1. tinyhipsterboy*

                  Now that you say it, it *is* kind of odd that we almost exclusively seem to use Pelosi’s and Warren’s full names to refer to them. I wonder why that is.

                2. LL*

                  I think with politicians we’re more likely to call the women by their last names than in other settings. I hear it a lot. People called Hillary “Clinton” sometimes, but that was confusing because of Bill and after she ran in 2016, I hear a lot more people refer to Bill by his first name than did in the past. And I think Harris often uses Kamala because it makes her stand out more (Harris is very common last name in the US and Kamala is not a common first name).

              3. UKDancer*

                I’m trying to think of what we do in the UK. I think we’d probably use last names for everyone in politics unless there’s any confusion. So it’s Starmer, Reeves, Raynor, Sunak, Braverman, Badenoch. I mean thinking back it was Blair and Major and Thatcher. We tend to do that in all cases that I can remember.

                I guess we’d use the full name to avoid confusion if there were multiple people with the same last name (so at one point we had 2 sisters Angela Eagle and Maria Eagle both MPs, another time we had Nicholas Winterton and Ann Winterton both MPs who were married). So you’d give the full name to be clear which one you mean.

                I guess again it’s different for monarchs because we tend to call them by first name so it’s Charles, Camilla, William, Anne. They have titles but a lot of people don’t remember them when talking about them.

                1. Arrietty*

                  Boris definitely gets a first name a lot, especially in pro-Boris newspapers. Rachel Reeves has been Reeves mainly, Keith Starmer seems to alternate. Rishi was almost never Sunak. Hm.

                2. Jill Swinburne*

                  Oddly, in Britain it was often “Mrs Thatcher”. Yet no “Mrs Truss/Mrs May”.

                  In New Zealand Jacinda Ardern was definitely often referred to as “Jacinda”, though not in the media, and by her detractors as “Cindy”. Helen Clark was often “Aunty Helen” but that’s generally more respectful in this country than it would be in other countries (it’s more like placing her as a matriarch).

                3. allathian*

                  Mrs. Thatcher was called that because she was the first woman PM and there were few women MPs at the time. Now it’s become much more common to be a woman in politics. And perhaps the UK is less sexist than the US in the sense that gender is emphasized less.

              4. Excel Gardener*

                I don’t really think this is actually that gendered, we’ve just had two high profile women who went by their first name for branding reasons.

                For example, we say Mayor/Secretary Pete not Buttigieg, and Bernie more often than Sanders.

                2. Worldwalker*

                  Because no one can pronounce “Buttigieg,” or are at least afraid they can’t, and most of the likely mispronunciations are, um, not good. I just refer to him by title for that reason.

                  Bernie projects a down-home, folksy persona, and all of his campaign materials said “Bernie” … so of course he’s Bernie.

                3. Orv*

                  “Buttigieg” is pronounced “Boot-edge-edge.” It’s not obvious from how it’s spelled, but it’s actually not hard once you know.

                  There’s no excuse for newscasters because part of their job is knowing how to pronounce names.

              5. Irish Teacher.*

                In Ireland, it’s mixed. Like President Patrick Hillary was always Hillary or President Hillary, to the point I had to google his first name just now. Presidents Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese are almost always described by their full names. I’ve never heard anybody refer to Mary Robinson as either “Mary” or “Robinson;” it’s always the full thing. Mary McAleese might just get “Mary,” but I suspect that is her preference. Our current president, Michael D. Higgins is always “Michael D.”

                I think it’s more era than gender here. It used to be more surnames but recent leaders tend to be first names. Our current taoiseach (prime minister) Simon Harris, tends to get his full name, but our last taoiseach was often just Leo. I think how common the first name is comes into it too. Until the 90s, it tended to be surnames, but now it is more first names.

                I do think there is some degree of genderness to it. After all, Mary Robinson was the first president to have her full name used, but it does seem to be more mixed.

                1. Irish Teacher.*

                  Actually, I’m probably wrong about Mary Robinson being the first to have her full name used. She was the first in my lifetime, but I strongly suspect Seán T. O’Kelly got his full name and Douglas Hyde too and I’m not sure about Erskine Childers or Cearball Ó Dálaigh, whose name I have probably completely misspellt.

                  I think often it depends on how common the name is too. Like Enda tended to be called Enda rather than Kenny, as Enda is a less common first name than Kenny is a surname and Michéal Martin (no, I didn’t mispell his first name; it’s the Irish version and is pronounced Me-hall, not Michael) gets his full name because Michéal is a pretty common name and Martin alone leaves it unclear as to whether it’s somebody with the first name or surname.

                3. Irish Teacher.*

                  Mary is a pretty common name among older women, but also I think Mary Robinson was just so popular and successful (even the guy she beat admitted the right person won and said he could never have been as good a president as she was) that all the parties went scrambling for a candidate as similar to her as possible for the next election. Four of the five candidates were women and the person who won, Mary McAleese, not only shared her first name but also her previous profession – both were lawyers – and both were almost the same age when elected, around 45.

              6. amoeba*

                Eh, both, I think. There was certainly a bit of “Angie” going on (in a joking way), but probably worse is that her nickname was also “Mutti” (old-fashioned for Mum) – so definitely still some sexism at play in Germany as well. And I’ve heard the same discussion about our media here!

                One thing that I do think comes into play is that people tend to use the first name more when it’s less common? So, I’d definitely call our current chancellor Olaf, but the minister for finances never Christian – because there’s, like, five Christians in the government but only one Olaf.

                Trying to think how it is in Switzerland, but I think it’s really mostly full name (first and last) for everybody…

            4. tinyhipsterboy*

              I mean, we do have context. If you’re talking specifically about the political landscape post-2001 and not referring to the impeachment and Bill Clinton’s behavior, it’s pretty clear that “Clinton” would refer to Hillary – Bill made himself much less public afterward, whereas Hillary’s profile just got bigger and bigger.

              Same with Harris. We’ve almost always used last names in election season, yeah? There isn’t another candidate named Harris, and the only Harris I can find that’s notable in politics is a conservative congressman that would likely not get mixed up with Kamala Harris. I know I’m trying to be more intentional about it (I catch myself referring to her as Kamala relatively often still), but it being so widespread is definitely… let’s go with “odd.”

            6. Orv*

              I’m not sure if the “to distinguish him from Bill” thing holds up. We had two presidents named Bush in pretty quick succession, and while the second of them was informally called “Dubya,” you never saw him referred to as that in news headlines.

            7. JB (not in Houston)*

              But we don’t call Bill Clinton “Bill,” so it doesn’t quite hold up. There was always an extreme level of gross sexism leveled at Hillary, above and beyond any critique of her beliefs/policies, and I do think calling her Hillary is a subtle form of disrespect leveled at her specifically.

          4. GingerNinja*

            I have an opposite situation: My male boss calls my other female teammates by their first names and me (also female) by my last name. The guys on the team are usually called by their first names or, jokingly, as “Mr. LastName.”

            I’m always bemused by it and never quite sure how to interpret it.

          5. bleh*

            We also call male infants “little men” giving them authority and adulthood in the crib, while sometimes calling forty-yr-old women “girls” removing said adulthood and authority. This stuff runs deep.

            1. Rocket Raccoon*

              I dunno, my mom got on me about calling “the girls” in for lunch until I pointed out that I also called in “the boys” which included my 81 year old grandpa. I just use boys/girls instead of men/women. If I’m derogatory, at least it’s not sexist!

          6. Phil*

            Thank you for pointing that out; I hadn’t really picked up in that in the reporting I’ve seen, but it’s obvious in retrospect.

            I had a boss once who did something similar. We got a new employee at work, and when she was introducing everyone, she said “This is FirstName1, FirstName2, and Mr. LastName”. I was Mr. LastName, and I will say that it felt strange.

            Also, I think one thing that might be going on with the presidents/candidates is that “Trump” and “Biden” are more unusual / unique, and thus a better identifier than “Donald” or “Joseph”, whereas “Kamala” is a more unusual name than “Harris” (at least in the US).

          7. Boof*

            I think we have to be a bit careful overgeneralizing on some of this – Hillary Clinton also has the same last name as her husband and former president Bill Clinton, just calling her Clinton is a little more confusing. And sadly we just haven’t had that many women in a position where they were seriously in the running for president so just not many data points.
            But I also tend to default to Harris so IDK folks mileage may vary and it depends a lot on who is saying what and how. Just some things I don’t necessarily think are better “the standard patriarchal way” and doing it a bit different isn’t worse.

              2. amoeba*

                Pretty sure outside of America, the only one I remember was always “George W Bush”, never only Bush…

          8. Worldwalker*

            When I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, I remember newspapers referring to something that a man named Smith did as “Mr. Smith did so-and-so” on first reference and “Smith” thereafter, but if it was a woman, “Judy Smith did so-and-so” on first reference and “Judy” thereafter.

            Though my incoming emails are from the Harris or Harris-Walz campaign, and to be fair, Hilary might have wanted to make a distinction from Bill.

          1. VaguelySpecific*

            It’s also possible that me not seeing it is just because I never worked any place with multiple women with the same name ;) (male dominated industry)

            1. Bast*

              I worked in an office where there were multiple name twins — we had 2 Sherris, 2 Tammys, 2 Marys, 2 Mikes. We usually ended up referring to them by department — Payroll Sherri or Real Estate Sherri? Divorce Mike or Criminal Mike?

              1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

                If I were one of the Mikes, I might want to rethink that strategy, even though I’m sure that they are lawyers and calling them by their specialties doesn’t seem so weird internally as it does externally. ;)

              2. Potatohead*

                I remember way back when I was in college, the club I was in had something like four or five Sam’s at one point, and for a year or so we were referring to them in order of sam-seniority – One, Two, Three, Four, or Five. Very weird in retrospect.

                1. Sweet 'N Low*

                  A group I’m involved in has multiple people named Josh. Someone started referring to them by their first + last name smushed together, and it’s stuck ever since. Think Josh Rodriguez = Joshriguez, Josh Edwards = Joshwards, Josh Collins = Joshllins, and so on.

              3. GenX Enters the Chat*

                A group of friends I knew in New Orleans had Big Dave, Little Dave, Medium Dave, Dave Dawg, and Amaretto Dave. There may have been several others I’ve forgotten.

                1. Pterodactyls are under-cited in the psychological literature*

                  Big Dave, Wee Dave, Bigger-Than-Wee-Dave-But-Not-As-Big-As-Big-Dave Dave…

                2. RM*

                  We had Baby Sam and Old Man Sam for the longest time. A third Sam was added and was jokingly named Fetus Sam, but was generally called Sam because Baby and Old Man were so ingrained

            2. Hlao-roo*

              I also work in a male-dominated industry, but there have been a few instances of women with the same first name working at the same company. In those cases, I’ve heard “Jane Smith” and “Jane Carson” used to differentiate, instead of “Smith” and “Carson.”

              But again, male-dominated, so the most I’ve ever known of is two women with the same first name at a time. I think it would be different if there were 6 or more (like there often are with Mikes and Nicks at the places I’ve worked).

            3. Nina*

              I used to work in a place that had multiple Joes; we numbered them in order of hiring date.
              Joe 1 had been there forever, Joe 2 didn’t stay long, Joe 3 remained Joe 3 after Joe 2 left, and Joe 4 was hired shortly before I left so I don’t know what happened with him.

          2. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

            Are they all actually Heathers? If so, how do you refrain from all the Heathers’ movie jokes?

            1. Orv*

              My experience is women named Heather hate that movie and you do not want to bring it up with them.

              2. Sweet 'N Low*

                The first time I saw the musical at a community theater, Veronica was played by a woman named Heather. Not only that, but two of the three Heathers shared a first name – Emily, I think. Trying to figure out who anyone was talking to during rehearsals must have been a nightmare!

        3. stacers*

          I’m glad to work in an industry where it’s common to refer to anyone of any gender by just their last name, but it’s journalism and since bylines are a big thing, it’s a natural extension of the work so I don’t think that’s easily replicable other places.

        4. Lyn*

          We did this in my old job years ago. We had two Cindy’s. We called the more senior employee Cindy, and the more junior one by her last name (ie., Weber)

        5. Tenebrae*

          I have also noticed that. I worked somewhere once where it was stark. We had Dr. Brink, Dr. Cabot, Dr. Stiles, etc. and Betsey. Betsey also had a PhD and was equal to or higher in status to all the men.

          1. Elitist Semicolon*

            I taught in a university program with a mix of Ph.D.s and non-Ph.D.s. Inevitably, students addressed me as “Mrs. Semicolon” and my non-Ph.D.-having male colleagues as “Dr. Whoever.”

        6. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

          When I was in 7th grade, my math teacher called ALL students by just our last names. This was in around 1974. I don’t recall how he explained it, probably something about equality, and I know that I liked the absolute equality of it. (This was on a campus of about 1300. I was in the smart-kids program, and that cohort of kids were together for all the core classes, plus music, and we just continued the practice in all classes and all thru jr high.)

        7. LL*

          It’s funny because when I was in high school, I was one of three girls in my friend group with the same first name AND there were plenty of other girls with my name or very similar names that I had classes with and my friends and some of my teachers started calling us by our last names to clarify.

      2. Butterfly Counter*

        One year in college, my women’s soccer team did a lot of pre-class activities with the men’s team. Out of the 20 or so men on the team, I want to say that 15 all had names that started with J. Unless they had a nickname, I could never remember who was Jared and who was Jay and who was Jason and who was Jeremy (and so on).

        2. not a Chris*

          I played on a women’s soccer team with a Kristin, Kris, Kristy, Krista, Christine, Christina, Chrissy, Christy, and Chris. There was also a Lynne and Lindsay, and a Jenn and Jenna. New players were allowed to call everyone Chris for their first season

          1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

            In my all girls’ Catholic high school, I once had a semester class that had 24 students and 6 of them were variations of Kristy or Krissy. I genuinely don’t know how we coped.

          2. Sir Nose d'Voidoffunk*

            My son played on a Little League team that had two Grahams, a Garrett, and a Grady. That’s a lot on a 12-person roster!

            But my single favorite coaching name situation is on the basketball team I coach. I used to have a set of twins whose last name started with A and a set of triplets whose last name started with B. That’s in addition to a few other As and Bs on the team. I had a kid whose last name started with D who was ninth on a 12-man roster listed alphabetically.

      4. Quinalla*

        So, I’ve been in meetings with two Todd’s, three John’s and three Chris’ (not kidding, male dominated field), but if there are two Katie’s, people cannot get a grip. It is unreal to me. And these are folks who rolled with it no problem indicating which John/Chris/Todd they were talking to, sometimes by using last names, sometimes Todd R. etc. or Todd w/X Company, but could not figure out how to reference two women with the same first name. Also, have had owners with two women with the same first name who CANNOT tell who is who. The women do not look alike and have very different jobs, but they are both women (AMIRIGHT) and you just can’t tell the women apart fellas!

        Anyway, this dude reminds me of all these dudes I’ve run into like this. It isn’t everyone, but it is far, far too many dudes I have had the displeasure of having to work with.

  6. Yup*

    It’s not low-stakes at all. This is the kind of sexism that’s been left to happen in the office and creates difficulty for women across all levels–from confusion in communication to frustration trying to work with this person, having to put in extra effort than men, and even risking advancement, raises, bigger projects etc. due to the extra burden of dealing with this sexism. It may not look like much, but it speaks volumes that it’s allowed to happen and it contributes to discrimination in the workplace.

    3. Jiminy Cricket*

      Exactly this. I don’t trust someone who won’t even say my name to:

      Be fair when it comes to reviews
      Give me credit for my own good work
      Invite me to the right meetings
      Etc.
      Etc.

      If you can tell John from Joaquin, you can tell Lupita from Ayesha.

    5. sometimeswhy*

      Yep. I inherited a report who would refer to women, including his colleagues, me (his boss), my boss, and one of the executives as “her” or a handwave in their/our general direction, never our names. It was rude and dismissive and upsetting. You could safely bet yer bottom dollar that he tried to rules lawyer his way around it even though it was pretty clear by his inflection that “her” was always a substitute for a slur. I was limited to what I could do without institutional support but I never gave up and he did eventually leave.

  7. ThatGirl*

    I would sort of petulantly ask “who?” every time until he used a name. But maybe that’s me.

    2. Looper*

      I wouldn’t even be petulant because from the letter it seems like no one knows who he’s talking about. How has no one been like “Bob, wtf is wrong with you? Who the heck are you talking about?!?” when he pulls this crap?

  8. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

    Anyone else feel like the internet is extra bananapants today?

    Anyway, calling him out on it sounds like the way to go- how has he gotten away with this for so long, especially if the office is majority women? At my last job, I had a coworker who had been there for 40+ years and he didn’t have this issue. Even though the demographics of the office had probably changed from predominantly male to predominantly female (in the departments he worked with, at least- the other departments were still predominantly male), he knew our names and referenced us as such…as if we were equal coworkers who deserved the same respect. Because we did.

    1. Orv*

      This may be one of those cases where everyone knows the guy is a lout but they’re all just waiting for him to retire so they don’t have to deal with it. There are at least two guys like that where I work.

      1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

        I’ve read articles about sloth fever and competitive/deadly kite flying and now this. I’m afraid to open any more tabs.

    4. Kay*

      I suck at names in general, you might be surprised at how often you can get away with pronouns. Especially when talking directly to a person. Obviously I don’t do this in a gender-segregated way, but I can see how it might take a while to see a pattern. Plus you then need to convince others to see the pattern without sounding crazy yourself. “My coworker doesn’t use names often, he’s obviously sexist” is a bit of a leap without a lot of examples behind it.

      1. username required*

        Me too – when I start a new job I have to do an office plan and write people’s names down, even then that only works when they’re sitting where they’re supposed to when I need to talk to them. I’m not sure if it’s maybe mild face blindness but I need to see people many times to associate their name with their face. When one guy complained that I didn’t remember his name I said right now you only have to learn 1 new name – I have to learn 75.

  9. VaguelySpecific*

    I could see this being either entirely innocent or not.

    At my last job, there were 2 women in engineering: me and my boss. Literally the only feature we have in common is dark hair and still multiple men would accidentally call me by her name. Never figured out why and they were always genuinely apologetic when called out for it and I never sensed anything malicious about it.

    I have a current coworker who will mispronounce women’s names even after being corrected multiple times (including both our interns) and if he can’t remember a woman’s name he refers to them as “that lady”. There is no doubt in my mind his behavior is rooted in misogyny (although the sexist jokes he occasionally tells also influence that opinion…)

    1. mlem*

      Is egregiously mispronouncing his name (particularly when speaking directly to him) an option? I know that sometimes gets through to people who insist on nicknaming (or deadnaming) others when nothing else does.

      And now I’m fondly remembering John in “update: my employee keeps getting deadnamed by a coworker”.

      1. Chirpy*

        I’ve had calling a guy by the wrong name to get him to stop mispronouncing my name work once.

        In middle school.

        But it was really satisfying.

    2. CommanderBanana*

      I worked on a campus where I got called by the head librarian’s name more than once. We both had black hair with straight bangs.

      I had a short bob and was nearly a foot taller than her. She had long hair and wore glasses. Other than having bangs and the same color hair, we didn’t look that similar, but for some reason people saw us as That Person With The Bangs.

    3. Salty Caramel*

      It doesn’t matter if the reasons are innocent or not. The behavior has a negative impact on people that needs to be addressed.

      As several others have pointed out, if he was bad with names, this would apply to his male colleagues too.

    4. Tiny Soprano*

      My friend has this where she gets confused with the only other fat woman at work. They don’t look alike at all. They dress very differently. But still people call them by each other’s names.

    5. londonedit*

      I have a running buddy who looks absolutely nothing like me except that we have a similar hair colour (just the colour though, our actual hairstyles are completely different). People are constantly mixing the two of us up, to the point where someone will say to me ‘Oh, I saw you running in the park the other day!’ and I’m like nope, that was probably Sally. They also mix up our names even if they’re speaking directly to us. I think because we run together a lot, we’ve just somehow become interchangeable in people’s minds!

    6. LL*

      A few years ago, I took a class where there were multiple women with straight, dark brown hair. It was 2021-2022 and where I lived masks were still required indoors, so I could only see half their faces. The class met once a week, but it took me MONTHS to be able to differentiate between all of them and most of them didn’t really look a like (different body shapes, different heights, different clothing styles, etc.). I realized then that I depend too much on hair to tell people apart.

    7. But maybe not*

      There is a woman who works in my building who does a different but complementary function to my role. We both have 80’s popular M names and the same common last name. People confuse us so much that I respond to both of our names and we’ve stopped correcting them. If it’s email, we just forward it to the other. We look nothing alike and have opposite personalities, but you know, we’re girls, so…

  10. Stuart Foote*

    I would just let this guy have his quirk. He might just be bad with names, or the LW could be noticing a pattern that isn’t there, or any number of things. According to the letter he isn’t hurting anyone or displaying signs of prejudice against women.

    1. Justme, The OG*

      Refusing to use the name of any woman he works with IS a sign of prejudice, whether he means it to be or not.

    2. Paris Geller*

      I would agree with this if he wasn’t using anyone’s name at all, but the if he’s using men’s names and not women’s, it’s definitely sexist (whether it’s intentional or not).

    3. Maleficent*

      he’s causing a lot of confusion and it’s directly connected to gender. I don’t understand how this is problem-free and prejudice-free.

    4. zuzu*

      It’s not a “quirk” when it’s only women’s names he won’t use or won’t remember.

      Note I said “won’t,” not “can’t.”

      I’ve had to learn the names of up to 50 students in my classes within a couple of weeks, and it’s not made easier when there are multiple blondes with shoulder-length hair who sit together or multiple guys with dark hair and beards and glasses in the class. There are things that do make it easier, like assigned seating and referring to seating charts, asking for patience, etc. Every year, I would mix up a couple of students’ names or forget a couple, especially those who weren’t big in-class participants. But you know what I never did? Fail to use the names of an entire gender.

    5. Cheap Ass Hellmouth*

      He can produce the women’s names when pressed and he uses names for the men, so the issue is not that he’s bad with names. He’s choosing not to dignify the women in his office with identity unless he’s forced to. If he’s willing to treat women that differently in this way, I have to imagine he may treat the women in his office differently in other ways too.

    6. Anonymouse*

      It may be a quirk, but it’s one that rooted in sexism (even if it’s unconscious) and privilege. By continuing, it reads as a lack of respect by that coworker. The coworker needs to be told to stop.

    7. Observer*

      He might just be bad with names, or the LW could be noticing a pattern that isn’t there,

      Neither of these is likely.

      If he is bad with names, it would be for *both* men and women, not *just* women. As for the LW seeing something that’s not happening? That’s against the rules of the site. But also offensive and willfully ignoring what the LW says. When someone *consistently* does a certain thing and someone describes the specific thing, it’s very strange to claim that they are seeing a pattern that doesn’t exist. I mean why do you think that the LW is being inaccurate in their description?

      he isn’t hurting anyone or displaying signs of prejudice against women.

      Except for refusing to use women’s names. That could easily be sign of prejudice. And it DOES create a problem as people need to figure out who he is talking about or waste time on getting an answer from him.

      Sure, it occasionally does happen. But generally there are other clues in a letter that indicate that the LW may not have their facts right. Here? What would be your indicator?

      1. Paint N Drip*

        If ‘the girls’ in the office don’t get names, hard to imagine ‘the girls’ under his leadership are getting recognition, new projects, raises, promotions…

    8. Bast*

      If he did this to everyone, I’d equate it to being bad with names. But only with the women? No, there’s something else there, I’m just not sure what. It also gets confusing to hear “she” and “her” without context — WHICH she said that? WHICH her did what?

    9. The Kulprit*

      No. 1. it is not a quirk, it is remarkably specific along gendered lines. He also can find their names when he needs to, so it isn’t that he just doesn’t know them

      2. the “why” is irrelevant. Women are people who have names and he must address them as such. End Of.

    10. HonorBox*

      A quirk is someone refusing to fill their coffee cup more than 2/3 full or eating their lunch at exactly 12:09 every day or always wearing mismatched socks.

      This isn’t a quirk. At best it is terribly confusing for those he’s working with. At medium, he’s letting his religion override workplace norms. At worst he’s a sexist dude who can’t get out of the Mad Men era.

    12. Nonsense*

      I was wondering when our resident man apologist would show up. Didn’t take very long at all.

        1. Writer Claire*

          Sadly, no.

          I find it….irritating (yes, let’s use that word) that in 2024, women still get their lived experiences diminished or outright dismissed. “Oh, it wasn’t sexism*. You misunderstood. He’s just socially awkward. He’s from a different culture or era. He’s just an old man can’t remember things. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill.”

          Site rules state we should take the OP at their word, and my lived experience says this is sadly still a common problem. What troubles me is that our resident apologist isn’t a unicorn, and that there are managers out there–far younger than 50s or 60s–who would dismiss OP’s observations and tell her she ought to “let him have his quirk.”

          * Replace sexism with harassment or even assault and you get the same result

    13. Salty Caramel*

      This guy’s behavior is showing prejudice against women.

      Saying the LW could be noticing a pattern that isn’t there sounds a lot like gaslighting. I hope that’s not how you meant it.

    16. Irish Teacher.*

      As others have said, I don’t really buy “just bad with women’s names.” I have a coworker who calls us all “Sir” or “Miss” even in the staffroom. Those are the common terms students use for teachers and I have no idea whether this guy is just in the habit of using them from talking to students or whether he is really bad with names, but he does it to everybody and that is clearly just a quirk. No big deal.

      Only doing it to women…yeah, I don’t buy that it’s a quirk and unrelated to their gender.

      1. Non non non all the way home*

        Yikes, “Sir” is a respectful term for men while “Miss” is a term generally used for girls or unmarried women. Unless you have an unusual workplace, it not an appropriate term not professional women.

        1. Non non non all the way home*

          Oh I saw you are an Irish Teacher. In your culture is “Miss” comparable in respect to “Sir”?

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            The media tells me “Miss” is a common form of address for female teachers in the U.K. and perhaps Ireland, and seems to be respectful.

    17. Worldwalker*

      If he was just bad with names, he would be bad with men’s names, too.

      It’s one of the expectations here that we assume the LWs aren’t lying.

      He’s specifically not using women’s names, and only women’s names. How is this not a pattern?

    18. Coffeebreak*

      Not being able to use any woman’s name while addressing them is prejudice.

      “Let him have his quirk,” a very chilling statement when it’s so dehumanizing to be called “her” or “she” or “that lady” and not your actual name.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’m imagining every email sounding like “Hey You, can you send the TPS report to Her? And then can you send the XYZ report to Other Her? Thanks!”

      1. Dawn*

        I’m witnessing a conversation between DrSalty and Caramel & Cheddar and I’m feeling like I need a salad for dinner now.

    2. Pay no attention...*

      It’s probably more like, “Good morning, please include your update and send this TPS report to Accounts Payable.” More professional and more difficult to call out the behavior, but still not giving women a name.

  12. Dust Bunny*

    Does he do it with men, too?

    My mother can have total ongoing conversations/monologues without using names. The entire thing is “she”, “him”, and “it”, and she gets really peeved if you ask her to clarify–somehow it’s reasonable for her to expect you to keep track of even different “hers” in a story but it’s unreasonable to ask her to put in a little more effort and use names. She’s always been this way (it’s not age-related) and as far as I can tell the root of it is basic garden-variety self-centeredness.

    1. Looper*

      In the letter it states that he calls the men by either first or last name, so no, he doesn’t do this to the men too.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      My spouse does this. I’ve been known to fetch my referee’s whistle, stop the conversation, and assess penalties for “abuse of pronouns.”

      LW, your peer sounds like a loon. I’d probably consult his supervisor to find out if there’s any halfway reasonable explanation or any accommodations in play (not that I think there are, but I hate to be surprised by), and ask the supervisor to handle it. From there, if that fails, it’s all up to how much capital you’re willing to burn and drama you’re willing to endure (HR, Union/Ombudsman, etc).

      Or maybe just gess names as wrong as possible every single time he uses a pronoun and let it eat at what’s left of his sanity instead of yours.

      1. Silver Robin*

        I have to do this for my partner too, his brain does not always supply the relevant words so there is a lot of starting in the middle, pronouns, and placeholder words (thing, place, etc). He might not put up with me if I actually do the referee whistle but it might be funny enough to do it anyway…

  13. nnn*

    I’m so curious what his actual reasoning is! I’ve been in specific situations where I didn’t use an individual’s name for a particular reason that’s primarily rooted in my own hang-ups*, but I haven’t been in a situation where it applies to a whole demographic.

    I don’t know OP’s gender, but asking him outright would probably get better results if a male co-worker does the asking.

    *Example: my new co-worker once taught me in university and I felt super weird addressing him by first name so I kind of avoided addressing him by name at all for a period of time

    1. Gumby*

      Are you me? In college I had a professor say “Just call me John” and I was all “sure, yep, will do” and then never once used a name when speaking to him. If he was not in the room and I was speaking about him I used Professor Lastname. I could maybe call him John to his face now. Maybe. If I forced myself. (I graduated from college more than 20 years ago.)

    2. Maleficent*

      Nope, I’ve been there, too. I was once in a Bible study group with my high school band teacher. After calling him Mr. Smith for 4+ years, it took me MONTHS to get used to calling him by his first name.

    1. Nicki Name*

      Came to the comments to say exactly this! Please send in an update, LW, I’ve got to know!

  15. Alan*

    I might be way off base, but coming from a very conservative religious background, I wonder if he finds naming women too intimate. There’s just some really weird and screwed up ways of thinking in some conservative religious circles, e.g., “I can’t be alone in a room with a woman who isn’t my wife”. Not justifying it, just wondering whether that’s an issue. He may be doing it because he thinks he’s being respectful. If you told him that it was perceived as *disrespect* I think you might have a genuine chance of changing his behavior.

    2. Observer*

      but coming from a very conservative religious background, I wonder if he finds naming women too intimate.

      I’m having a very hard time with that idea. I’m very familiar with that kind of conservatism, and all of the people I know who subscribed would definitely use women’s names. They just did not use their *given* name by itself. So they would never say “Rosemary” but they would say “rosemary Smith”, Ms / Miss / Mrs Smith or Ms./Miss / Mrs. Rosemary.

    3. Bast*

      This came to mind among other things. If you’re from an age/place/religion where you may refer to Mike and Jim and Bob more familiarly, but women would be Ms. Smith, Ms. Jones, etc., he may perhaps he realize that’s awkward and weird and tries to get around that by not using a name at all — which is just as noticeable as if he were extra formal.

      1. anon for this*

        This was the exact reason why I watched a coworker struggle to use women’s first names. He knew that referring to “Ms. Jacobs” and “Mrs. Wheatly” would sound weird, but he didn’t think he’d earned the level of familiarity to say “Anne” or “Susan” either.

        1. Saturday*

          I was wondering if this is it as well. Ms. X will come across as weird in most workplaces, but he is feeling uncomfortable referring to her by her first name. I mean… he has to get over it, and apparently does when someone asks him to clarify, but I am wondering if that’s the reason.

          1. Boof*

            And that’s why we should switch to military style at work of everyone is just lastname (no honorific or nuthin unless it’s a work rank)

      2. Space Needlepoint*

        That’s what I thought the letter was going to be about when I read the headline. Then I got all twitchy when reading that he would just use pronouns.

        How has he managed to do this for so long? LW can’t be the first person to have noticed.

      3. Foxy Hedgehog*

        I honestly think that of all of the speculation here, this comes closest to the real answer as to why this is happening. If you’re a man of a certain religious sort, you would feel comfortable calling your male neighbor “Homer” but you would not really feel comfortable referring to his wife as anything other than “Mrs. Simpson.”

        1. Alan*

          Yeah. My experience suggests that if you gently tell such a person how it comes across they will be horrified and change. I think he might genuinely be trying to do the “right” thing and be unsure of what that is. It’s a different vibe from the “I won’t be alone with a woman” crowd.

          1. Coffeebreak*

            Pretty sure his posited “deep religion” is also probably also rooted in deep sexism and not naming women is not “more respectful.” I love that you think he’d be horrified to know he’s being seen as disrestful. He’s not using their last names, he’s using a pronoun. Come on.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Pretty much what I was thinking. While I have never met anybody like that, it was the first suggestion that really felt possible to me. I mean, I could be way off; it could be any of them or something we haven’t even thought of, but this is the first one that made me go, “oh yeah, could be.”

        3. Worldwalker*

          But he doesn’t call her “Mrs. Simpson” or “Marge” or any other name — just “her.”

          1. allathian*

            He knows that using last names without honorifics or first names for men and gendered titles + last names for women would sound weird, but doesn’t seem to get that using only pronouns sounds even worse.

            But I suspecgt he’s the kind of man who can’t imagine being friends with a woman because friendship with a person of the gender they’re attracted to isn’t on their radar at all. They also generally think in very cisnormative and heteronormative terms and have old-fashioned ideas about gender roles.

  16. Moose*

    Ha! I did something similar to this for a bit (though not at work) because I am hella face-blind and struggle to tell the difference between white women with shoulder length brown hair or blonde hair. I have a much easier time with redheads tbh. And I use all my mental energy I have dedicated to remembering faces on people at work and people of color because I very much do not want to be making folks uncomfortable.

    However while I can empathize with the behavior, it’s not acceptable at work. He needs to be using named. I would address it directly with him. He might think he’s making it so no one realizes he can’t tell people apart and he’s not.

      1. metadata minion*

        If anything, I would think women would tend to be easier to identify because it’s more socially acceptable for women to have distinctive jewelry/hairstyles/etc, whereas the men are often identical white dudes with short hair and ties.

        1. Moose*

          For me at least, women are significantly harder to identify.

          Again I am not excusing the behavior just saying how I experience face-blindness.

        2. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

          It cuts both ways for me: the horde of middle-aged white dudes all look identical so I can’t tell them apart, but women change their appearance more frequently (different jewelry or hairstyles, mostly), so I can’t tell if the person I’m talking to is the person I think it is or if I’ve ever spoken to them before. It’s embarrassing and exhausting and I wish everyone would wear nametags.

          1. Worldwalker*

            Oh, do I ever agree on the nametags! That’s why I like conventions: I can find out who I’m talking to before I jam both feet into my mouth.

        3. Worldwalker*

          I key on things like clothes, hair, jewelry, etc. It’s actually easier to tell the identical white dudes apart — I find something more permanent about them, and remember that. If a person I’ve been remembering because she has long hair gets a haircut, I’m in trouble.

        4. Nightengale*

          my face blindness definitely presents this way. Less in real life and more watching media. I stopped watching some shows as a teen (long before faceblindness was a thing I or anyone else really knew about) because I couldn’t tell the white men in suits apart. And there were always so many more of them as guest stars compared to women. Occasionally someone would have glasses or a beard! This is when and partly why I started watching Star Trek (next generation) – because they only had 3 white men, two always wore red, of which one was bald with a Shakespearean accent and one always wore yellow.

      2. Worldwalker*

        I’m far from borderline. And this. I can’t tell people apart aside from close family, and some people with a really distinctive look in their proper context apart. For example, there’s a cashier at a nearby store I always recognize. But if she was sitting next to me at a baseball game? Not a chance.

        But it’s the same for everyone. As Jiminy Cricket said, my face-blindness doesn’t discriminate by gender.

        And yes, movies are awful — I have to have someone tell me if that’s the same guy we saw in an earlier scene, because I can’t recognize him if he’s changed his clothes. (yes, George Clooney could knock on my front door and I wouldn’t know who he was)

    2. Kiv*

      Also mildly faceblind and will confuse people of broadly similar appearance unless I know them well, or fail to recognize them out of context.

      I’m actually very concerned it’ll make me look racist some day, since I genuinely can’t tell people apart well if they have at all similar build, skin tone, and hair. Applies equally to white people (white men in movies are my absolute bane), but that might sound like an excuse…

    3. Shazam*

      All of these posts have got me so interested in face blindness as I never knew this was a thing. I have the opposite problem of never forgetting a face and then feeling frustrated when the face has forgotten mine. So is this an example of face blindness?

      1. Worldwalker*

        The technical name is “prosopagnosia.” It might help looking up the details.

        It comes in various degrees of severity. I’m pretty bad. My MIL can tell which of my identical twin BILs is which in decades-old pictures, even if they’re dressed alike. I was looking at one of my elementary-school class pictures some years ago, and if my mother hadn’t written the names on the back when it was taken, I couldn’t have told you which of those 6th-grade kids was me to save my life. There are people who have it so bad they can’t recognize their own spouses until they speak.

        And that’s an interesting aspect of it: when I hear someone, I can recognize them. When those BILs call on the phone, I have a better than even chance of knowing which one just said “hello.” (it’s easy now, in person — they’ve spent decades working on not looking alike; for instance, one works out, the other doesn’t, and it’s obvious)

        Some people just find faces difficult to recognize, but they’re okay with co-workers; it’s just that guy they only see twice a year who’s a problem. Some are good with the people they see every day, but anyone from another department leaves them at a loss. It really varies.

        And I can tell you in advance, if we ever have an AAM meetup, I will forget your face. Probably within the first 5 minutes. Fortunately, though, we’ll probably have nametags.

        1. Nightengale*

          my favorite voice recognition stories:

          1) my father was watching reruns of a show I wasn’t familiar with but seemed to involve a talking car. “That car is William Daniels!” (who I knew from Boy Meets World and Greys Anatomy)

          2) my grandmother was half watching some movie from the 1940s. I came in during some scene in a hotel room. The housekeeper came in, said maybe 2 lines, walked out. I said, “that’s Ethel!” (Vivian Vance, who about a decade later played Ethel in “I Love Lucy”)

          no I have no idea what either of them look like

  17. Harper the Other One*

    OP, I second Alison’s advice – name this pattern and ask him explicitly why he’s doing it. If the answer is an innocent one, this thread points to why it’s a good idea to fix it, and you can tell him a lot of people will be put off by this, or assume ill intentions. If the answer is evasive or inappropriate, please take appropriate action immediately. This description alone made me feel uncomfortable and even if he’s only a few years from retiring, that’s still multiple years his female colleagues have to live with this behaviour.

  18. Goldenrod*

    I agree with Stuart Foote that this could just be someone who is bad with names and faces. As someone who is bad with both, I can relate! Sometimes I don’t use names because I’m afraid of getting it wrong, since, again, I’m a bit face blind and have trouble remembering both names and faces. And maybe the men are easier to remember simply because there are fewer of them.

    I’m uncomfortable with assuming bad intent, but whatever the reason, Alison’s advice is spot on! Just ask him about it! (And send an update when you do!)

    1. glib_result*

      But, he DOES know their names, because if anyone asks for clarification, he will use their name. If he’s choosing to use their name after being questioned, then he’s choosing to not use their name at first. This isn’t about ability, but intentional behavior.

  19. Indigo64*

    My first thought with his age was a memory thing- I know some folks in their 50s or 60s who struggle to learn and remember new names. It doesn’t explain the gender divide, unless the women are new and he’s worked with the men for years?

  20. HonorBox*

    That he doesn’t do it with men means it isn’t just a “I don’t want to be confused” thing. Maybe his actions specifically relate to confusing names as others have pointed out. Maybe it is sexism. Maybe something else completely. But his motivation and reasoning really shouldn’t matter. He is making things far more confusing for everyone because which “she” or “her” is he speaking of? I’d suggest doing what I do with my teenagers who tend to be less than specific at times and just ask something like “Who is HER, John?” Or “What SHE are you referring to?” Call him out. Maybe he’ll change. Maybe he won’t. But damn it’ll feel good.

    1. Pizza Rat*

      Bingo. The people I know who are face-blind have the same issue with all genders.

      This needs to be addressed. It should have been addressed 40 years ago.

      1. Moose*

        I am not someone you know but I am incredibly faceblind. I have issues with both men and women but women are a lot harder for me. His behavior needs to be called out and he cannot get away with not using names at work anymore. But not everyone’s face blindness is equally bad with all genders.

        Something to remember idk.

  21. tabloidtained*

    Ask him directly. It doesn’t need to be a “call out,” just a question.

    Speculation is pointless and unhelpful, imo. We have almost zero information to go on.

  22. 47ratsinatrenchroat*

    If he’s a little older, I wonder if he used to work in a space where women were ‘interchangeable,’ such as a typist pool or a secretary pool.

    2. Lizzo*

      Even if that’s the case…
      1) It’s 2024.
      2) It was demeaning then, and it’s demeaning now.

    3. Non non non all the way home*

      So if he was 21 in 1965 that would mean he is 80 now. I guess that’s possible.

  23. KKR*

    I know this could be nefarious but to me this just reads as someone who is socially awkward in some way, for some reason, and doesn’t realize it’s as obvious as it is. Or someone who is really bad with names or worried about getting the names wrong.

      1. KKR*

        Not necessarily , sometimes social anxiety or awkwardness, or face blind tendencies, is partial to different types of people. I know I have different people I feel more comfortable with where me being an awkward mess doesn’t happen as much. But neither of us know for sure – you’ll notice I said “I know this could be nefarious” as well :)

        1. Dawn*

          I disagree with the premise that it might not be nefarious, though; regardless of the reason, you can’t do sexist things and have it not be nefarious, the same way you couldn’t try to handwave away someone who called all the Black people in the office “Hey, you!”

        2. Elle*

          When the different people you feel comfortable with are all one type of person, that’s a bias (dealbreaker), ladies.

    2. allathian*

      Frankly, at this point getting the names wrong would be a smaller issue than not using names at all.

      There’s simply no acceptable reason for his behavior.

  24. Dadjokesareforeveryone*

    Honestly I’m not sure why he refuses to use women’s names, and I don’t care. He does use names when prompted, so he obviously knows who’s who.

    Not sure why this sexist BS has been allowed to slide this long, but in your shoes I’d ask him straight up what his deal is, and ask him for name clarification every single time he tries this. If he gets upset, oh well, and if management starts in on you rocking the boat you may have a case for discrimination based on sex.

  25. womp*

    I also have a coworker (“Neil”) who does this, although he is about 40. He is definitely sexist in several ways and I think this is a manifestation of it. I think in Neil’s mind, any woman at work is an “exception” in some way, and he hasn’t updated that feeling with the reality that he works directly with 6-7 women on a daily basis and indirectly with many more.

    I work in a male-dominated industry, but my office is pretty evenly split by gender. My boss (Jack) is male but is great to work for as a woman. Jack doesn’t always “get” the subtle dynamics at play but his heart is in the right place. And when I’ve pointed out sexism to him, he listens and doesn’t get defensive. I think this is why the number of women in our office has increased in the last few years, and Neil hasn’t adjusted. It’s annoying, but for me there are more important problems to address. I do pointedly ask Neil to specify a name each time though. I don’t think he has picked up on the pattern.

  27. Jiminy Cricket*

    A lot of people here trying to come up with reasons why this guy won’t use women’s names. But he uses men’s names, so clearly he can do it and is choosing not to. That’s not okay. Whatever is stopping him is his to get over.

      1. Jiminy Cricket*

        I’m feeling extra feisty as a woman in the working world today. I’M RIGHT HERE. We’ve been here for decades, for generations! It’s totally normal!

    2. allathian*

      Yeah, this. The number of posts where people are bending over backwards to think of excuses other than pure misogyny for this behavior astonish me. Call him out, every time. He deserves to be shamed for his gross behavior.

  28. not always right*

    I cannot say whether he is sexist or not. Maybe his, maybe not. In past jobs that I have had, my whole team was called out once because there were two women hired into our team. They both started on the same day. Both names began with the same two letters, let’s say Claudia and Clementine, and their last names were. Both were white, about the same age and size. One was brunette and one was a redhead. Every single one of our team, including myself would almost always call them by the wrong name, just like my grandmother used to do when she would go through all her grandkids’ names until she hit on the correct name. ANYWAY, during one of our monthly team meetings, they spoke up and gave us a whole lot of (well deserved) grief about it. I am so glad that they spoke up, because, in my case at least, I had pretty much given up on making the effort, so I called them by their last names instead. They did not appreciate my solution, although they did give me grace on it. Later on in life, I was hired on along with another woman. She was a woman of color, and I am white. We both worked in accounting and we both started on the same day. Believe it or not, ALL our coworkers, not just those on our team would call us by each other’s name. She and I had similar personalities, so I can see where that came from. We would just laugh it off and say something about how we look so much alike that it was hard to tell us apart. Thankfully, that only lasted a few weeks.

    1. Chat GPT Prompt*

      Tell me you’re a man without telling me you’re a man but in a story involving a workplace with only two women and a grandmother.

      1. Chat GPT (with a few more prompts)*

        In the shop, there were two women among the sea of men: Claudia and Clementine. One was a brunette, the other a redhead, but for the life of them, none of the guys could ever keep straight who was who.

        “Hey, Claudia—uh, no, Clementine—can you pass me that wrench?” one of the guys would say, and the woman, either Claudia or Clementine, would just roll her eyes and hand it over. This happened every day. One of them would laugh it off, and the other would give a pointed look that said, Really? Again?

        I mentioned it to my grandmother one Sunday while we were having coffee on her porch. She was an old woman, sharp as a tack despite her years, and didn’t miss a beat.

        “They can’t tell them apart?” she asked, raising an eyebrow.

        “Nope,” I said, shaking my head. “Claudia’s the brunette, Clementine’s the redhead, but half the time I think even I mix them up.”

        She laughed, a short, knowing chuckle. “Men have been doing that for centuries, confusing the women in their lives. But mark my words, those two know exactly who they are.”

        The next day at work, I watched Claudia (or was it Clementine?) expertly fix a stubborn piece of machinery while the other one joked with the guys. It struck me then: it wasn’t their hair that set them apart, but the way they carried themselves, the quiet confidence they exuded in a place where they stood out.

        And while the guys might keep getting their names wrong, Claudia and Clementine never seemed to mind much. They knew who they were—and eventually, I figured, the rest of us would catch on too.

    2. Coffeebreak*

      You just told on yourself. Tell me you’re sexist and can’t respect women without telling me.

  29. Sparkles McFadden*

    TL;DR – Ask him why he’s not using some people’s names and then be willfully obtuse and say “Who are you talking about?” repeatedly until he uses someone’s name.

    Let’s be generous here and think “Maybe the guy has face-blindness or something” and discuss this with your boss and see what the boss thinks. Then ask the guy what’s going on. Say “I’ve noticed you don’t use some people’s names. It’s very confusing. Can you use everyone’s name?” (I would not bring up gender just to see if he brings it up himself…which he might.) If he says something ridiculous (as in “I can’t remember every woman’s name”) just make every interaction where he won’t use a name go on for a very long time. Say “Who are you talking about?” every single time and be willfully obtuse until he pulls up the person’s name. I would also encourage everyone else to do the same. The guy can have his quirk but everyone else can make his quirk more difficult to maintain. People like this cut out their weird behavior when everyone stops letting them slide on it.

    It’s highly likely that what this guy is doing is something I call “unpersoning” and that isn’t an insignificant thing. I have had it happen to me in situations where I was the only woman in a department of twenty (or more) people, and I’d be referred to as “the girl” or just be ignored. We were all in the same job, yet people from other departments would come in, look straight at me and say “So no one is in yet? When is someone going to be in?” If none of us were facing the door, the male employees would be called by their names to get someone’s attention, but I’d have someone walk up behind me and cough, or bang on the door frame, or scream “hello!” as if they were staring into an empty room. One guy actually grabbed the back of my chair and shook it rather than address me by my name. I pointed this out to some of my coworkers and they were really great about it. Someone would say “I think the girl was working on that” and my coworkers would say “Who? What girl? I don’t know who you’re talking about.” They’d also point out that the person wasn’t using my name and say “Why aren’t you using her name?” So, at the very least, you should name what you’re seeing to other people who currently have the luxury of not noticing this behavior.

  30. What_the_What*

    Call it out. EVERY.TIME:
    “I was talking to her”
    “Who? There are 6 “hers” within 10 feet of us.”
    “Her, with the black hair.”
    “Ok, that narrows it down to 4. What is her name?”
    “You know… her, with the black hair and glasses.”
    “No, I don’t. I can’t continue this conversation until I know who we’re referring to. What is her NAME?”

    Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Eventually he’s going to catch on that even if others ignore it, YOU won’t.

    1. IAmUnanimousInThat*

      Yep. And if there is a medical reason for this, like Anomic Aphasia, you’ll be bullying a person for their disability. Very classy!

      Plenty of people experience mild cognitive and speech disorders as they get older, and as more older people stay in the workforce longer, we’ll see more of it. Bullying them because we never bothered to find out WHY they might do certain things? Not the way to strive for a better, more inclusive workplace.

      The OP said the guy exhibits no other sexit behaviors, and is an older mane- the EXACT demographic that suffers from this disorder the most.

      A kinder person would talk directly the coworker, in a non-judgmental way and find out what is going on. If he *is* being a sexist? There is plenty of time later to call him out on it.

        1. Beebis*

          Names that he can recall when asked for clarification. But yeah speech disorder is the logical leap here.

      2. Orv*

        I mean, my guess is if at any point he’d said “sorry, I have trouble with names” this would never have become a letter. There seems to be something else going on other than him just having a blanket issue with names, especially since he seems to remember men’s names just fine.

      3. HollyTree*

        there is no disability that affects one’s ability to remember women’s names but not men’s

        the fact that you are pulling this shit is offensive to actual disabled people, our disabilities aren’t gender based

      4. Worldwalker*

        So you have someone who’s being rude and sexist — not to mention impeding conversations by requiring the person he’s talking with to play “20 questions” to find out who he’s talking about — and you want people to be “kind” and “non-judgmental”? Really?

        Asking someone to clarify what they mean — who the person they’re only identifying by a pronoun with no antecedent is — is absolutely not bullying. It’s trying to find out what — or rather, who — he’s talking about. If he is unable to speak the name of a woman (though not, apparently, a man) he should not be working in a position where it’s a necessary part of communication.

      5. What_the_What*

        Well, I’m not a doctor, and I can ONLY go by the information given to us in the letter. BASED on that, I’m not diagnosing a disability that you seem to have decided he has. I’m giving the LW the benefit of the doubt that SHE knows what she’s talking about and has observed. Asking someone who they’re talking about is NOT bullying: it is called “clarification”.

    2. Orv*

      It sounds from the letter like he in fact does come up with the name if pressed to. So it seems unlikely it would go down quite this way.

  31. The Leanansidhe*

    Does this coworker seem to mostly/only spend time with other men? Lunch breaks, informal chats, that kind of thing. Given that there are fewer men in the office, could it be that he’s made friends with them or is much more familiar and so only remembers their names?
    I still find it pretty weird when adults only hang out with coworkers of their own gender, but it’s definitely a pattern I’ve seen at a couple of my own workplaces.

  32. It Ain't Me Babe*

    I worked with a very nice man who was from a different culture, not born in US. He never referred to any of the women in the office by name. When he was speaking about one of us he would say “that lady” and if he wanted to speak to you he would look in your direction and say “Um”. We just figured it was a cultural thing.

    2. allathian*

      Cultural differences aren’t the free pass some people think they are. If a man from a culture where women are generally subservient and don’t have any authority over male children past the age of 6 wants to work in a Western culture, they’ll have to learn to take orders from a manager regardless of gender. Similarly, if the culture expects you to refer to everyone by their name, then you better do so. As a newcomer in a strange culture, it’s up to you to adapt. We don’t have to accept being treated like shit just because the person is from a different culture.

    3. Coffeebreak*

      A lot of cultures are sexist! I hope you showed him that we respect both genders in the US (at least we say our culture does.)

  33. Ask her or ask Joe*

    I would love to know how long LW has been working around this guy, because I wonder if he’s always done this, or is it only in the last few years, as those would suggest different possible causes.

    He’s always done this –> sexism either overt or unconscious; it’s fairly recent –> LW said the office is mostly women, and he has lost the ability to keep track of them all with age-related memory problems, but there are just a few men so he can remember them, ie it’s cognitive decline not sexism.

  34. IAmUnanimousInThat*

    I know this isn’t the place for medical diagnosis,but there are multiple medical issues that can cause people to have difficulty in remembering or using names. I had a friend who had mild anomic aphasia. He had a very difficult time remembering names, and often used “him”, “her”, and “they” in that same way.

    I’m not saying this is the case, but my friend could remember some names and not others, so please make sure that it isn’t just based on sex. My friend could recall names that were “older” (think Henrietta) and longer (Alexander) or that were names of family members (when when applied to non-family members) . He could also better remember names of the people he hung out with, which were often men. Be sure you’re not seeing a sexist cause where one may not exist.

    He was very embarrassed by this. Evidently, it is more common in men, and in older men particularly (as in your coworker), so please don’t discount this, and until you know more, be kind. Allison’s suggestion to “call him out every time” may in fact be disability shaming, which is HIGHLY inappropriate (and I know not your intent).

    My friend very easily could have been “this guy”. And “calling him out every time” would have been both highly painful to him, and entirely inappropriate. Talk to him one-on-one before you do anything else.

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      It sounds though like your friend had equal difficulty with both genders. I think a disability that caused somebody to only forget the names of one gender and allowed him to remember them again when prompted would be pretty rare.

      Your friend’s situation doesn’t really sound at all similar. It sounds both like your friend’s difficulties were with everybody and as if he was still unable to remember them when asked.

      I get the impression that when the LW’s coworker is asked who he means, he can use the name.

    2. Orv*

      I’m not so sure. LW says he only does it with women, and will use their names if prompted. I understand the zebra you’re talking about here, but horses seem like the more likely source of these hoofbeats.

      1. IAmUnanimousInThat*

        The OP also said that the person in question shows no other signs of overt sexism, and is older and male (both of which puts one at higher risk for this kind of aphasia). Not sure EITHER putative cause is a “zebra” here.

        Plenty of folks have cognitive or speech disorders. As older people remain in the workforce longer, this will be more common.

        So with nothing else to go on, no history of sexist behavior, and characteristics of a well-documented type of medical disorder, I really don’t see the logic in assuming a nefarious motive and bullying the person over it.

        Like I said, the answer here is to assume bona fides, talk directly one-on-one to the man, name what you are seeing, and then decide what to do after that.

        2. Orv*

          It must be a very special cognitive disorder if it applies only to women, and disappears when he’s asked to clarify.

          1. IAmUnanimousInThat*

            Yes, cognitive and speech disorders can be quite complex. And names (and other speech elements) can be easier to recall for all sorts of different reasons. And we don’t know that it DOES only apply to women, but only that the OP has *noticed* that it does. As noted above, my friend with this disorder could better remember the names of people he hung out with frequently. Since he hung out with more men than women, it could easily appear the exact same as above.

            So why are you willing to assume bona fides on the part of the OP, but not the person in question?

    4. Petty_Boop*

      If this man had difficulty with *all* names, that’s one thing. It apparently is ONLY the women though. So, apples/oranges.

  35. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

    This is absolutely deliberate.

    Someone who really was having trouble remembering women’s names wouldn’t call everyone “she” and “her”–he would say things like “my boss” and “the woman who is handling the Smith account.”

    Even if I’m wrong, and it’s not intended as a slight, why isn’t he identifying people as “the IT tech” or “your assistant” instead of slowing everyone down by making them guess who he’s talking about?

      1. Keep it Simple*

        I’m equal-opportunity Unable to Recognize You! After about a month of seeing you daily, I might remember that you are Orv because you wear glasses and have brown hair. But, if you fake me out and wear contacts on Tuesday, I won’t know you from Erv in Purchasing.

      2. Keep it Simple*

        No, I am equal-opportunity I Do Not Recognize You. It kinda sucks and is very embarrassing.

        1. Worldwalker*

          And really sucks for watching movies.

          That’s why I prefer drive-ins or DVDs/streaming: I can ask my spouse “Hey, have we seen that dude before?”

      3. Hyaline*

        Just posted below but–LW says that their office demographics skew toward more women. They don’t say by how much, but if it’s significantly more women and for whatever reason the men have characteristics that do stick out for this guy (like if it’s “the bald one and the one with hair” vs “five average height dark haired women”), yeah, the issue could be more pronounced with one gender.

  37. H.Regalis*

    I work in a male-dominated field with plenty of old white guys who are within five years of retirement, and they can all remember my name and address me by it.

    This isn’t because he’s old, it’s not a generational thing, and the fact that he only does this with women points to this not being some kind of medical issue. He is making a choice to act like this. He’s being misogynistic and sexist, and I hope you can shut it down.

    Also side-eye to all the commenters whipping out Occam’s big paisley tie up in here.

    1. Jiminy Cricket*

      All this, yes!

      Also, he may not even be old. He’s been there 40 years and is within a couple years of retirement from the government. The man is likely in his 60s.

      Also, reminder to everyone that older people (me included) still live in the same decade as all the rest of you. It’s just that we’ve had even more years to come up to speed. So, just as much can be expected of us.

      1. H.Regalis*

        That’s a good point. Someone being significantly older than you doesn’t mean they have been segregated from the rest of society for decades and just popped out of a time capsule yesterday. We all live in the same times.

  38. Jen*

    I don’t think he’s necessarily being mysogynist. He could have been brought up in a very old-fashioned home where it was considered better to be more formal to women. While that is somewhat sexist, it’s only in a sense of being more formal around women, which probably many men do in other ways to a certain extent.

    1. Nesprin*

      Growing up in an old fashioned (mysogynist) household does not absolve one of treating women as equal colleagues.

      1. Jen*

        There are cultures where it is considered too familiar to call women by their first names. While it is treating women differently, it doesn’t mean those same cultures believe women are not as smart or not as capable. If this guy was then told he must call women by their first names, he might have weirdly compromised by saying she. Which is super-weird, but I think it stops at super-weird, not necessarily misogyny. It might indicate that you’d be on the lookout for evidence of misogyny more for this person than for others, which is fair.

        2. HollyTree*

          I LIVE in a culture where it’s too familiar to call women by their first names. They call them by their last names instead, not ‘she’!

          Not for nothing, my coworkers know that I dislike being called by my last name and now all only call me by my first or first + honorific. They, the dominant culture, changed the way they referred to me because they actually respected me and as someone who has a right to be referred to by their preferred name. This one dude can change the way he refers to women anytime he likes. ‘Culture’ is not a pass for continued disrespect.

    3. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      An old-fashioned guy might insist on addressing women as “Ms. Smith” even if everyone else was using their first names, and they encouraged him to “Please, call me Sue.” That wouldn’t be great either, but it’s irrelevant: There is nothing remotely formal or old-fashioned in referring to all women as “she” rather than as either “Ms. Lucas” or “Charlotte.”

      Maybe there is a non-weird, non-sexist reason for this behavior. If/when LW or her boss takes Alison’s advice to ask “I’ve noticed you’re doing this thing. Why?” he can explain himself. More likely, he’ll sputter something about “not meaning anything by it,” which can lead easily to Alison’s suggested “It’s really hard to know who you’re talking about when you don’t use names. Can you please use our names just like you do with men?”

      1. Jen*

        Just guessing.. this guy may have started as saying Ms. in the old-fashioned way, and someone told him he should use first names and now he feels strange using Ms. or first names.

        1. Rainy*

          I’m really curious as to why you’re out here doing backflips like Simone Biles to defend a dude when the simplest explanation for a dude calling his male coworkers by name but all women “her” is…not any of this.

    4. Ginger Cat Lady*

      By “old fashioned” you mean “misogynist” – he’s NOT being more formal, though. It’s not like he’s calling the men by first names and the women by “Miss Smith” or anything. (Though that would also be problematic in this day and age.) He basically grunts and points and says “her” instead of actually using women’s names.

  39. Hyaline*

    Another nuance here is that LW says there are more women than men–depending on that ratio, and other ways the group breaks out with age/physical attributes/etc, it might be that someone bad with names or even dealing with mild face blindness or even memory impairment can manage to, say, fairly easily match face to name for the ten male but not the twenty female coworkers. He could struggle more with the women and only be willing to venture a (typically correct) guess when pressed. It seems he knows who they all are–he’s not mixing up that Jenny works in accounting and Betsy works in HR from the way the letter describes it, he just doesn’t use names–so honestly, I would tread carefully and consider that he could have a legit cognitive or processing issue at play here instead of jumping straight to accusing the guy of sexism.

  41. HailRobonia*

    They call me hell
    They call me Stacey
    They call me Her
    They call me Jane

    That’s not my name
    That’s not my name
    That’s not my name
    That’s not my name

    1. Blanked on my AAM posting name*

      They call me quiet, but I’m a riot…

      I’m going to have that running through my head for the rest of the day now – thanks!

  42. BW*

    Is there any chance he’s face blind?

    The men might wear the same thing every day and never change their haircuts. Bob always wears a blue polo shirt and khaki pants and has a beer belly. Ron always wears an oxford cloth shirt and black pants and is very tall and skinny. George is bald. He recognizes them because they never change.

    But the women change their hair, their makeup, different clothing every day. They may even copy each other slightly because someone got a great haircut. That might make it harder for him to tell the women apart.

      1. dude, who moved my cheese?*

        Yes, and they don’t change their job function every day. Linda, Accounts Payable Manager with a new haircut is still Linda, Accounts Payable Manager who you will contact about accounts payable. It’s WAY different to say, “Hi! How was your weekend?” because you blank on Linda’s name than to say “Forward this invoice to her” “Who is her?”

      2. dude, who moved my cheese?*

        Yes, and they’re not changing their job functions every day. Linda, Accounts Payable Manager with a new haircut is still Linda, Accounts Payable Manager. It’s one thing to say “Hi, how was your weekend?” because you’re blanking on her name. He’s saying “send the invoice to her.” “Who is her?” He knows who Linda is and will say so when prompted.

    2. Coffeebreak*

      Women do not change their style and entire look everyday.

      The sexism is showing too much today.

  43. Sparrow*

    This is pure speculation, but: I’ve worked with men before who used titles specifically for women, but not men. Is there any chance this guy used to do something like that, got told to cut it out, and went far in the other direction by refusing to use women’s names at all?

  44. Blanked on my AAM posting name*

    Not really relevant here, but this reminded me of a former (female) manager who was notoriously bad with names and somehow ended up with a team of direct reports that included, say, Lisa, Louisa, Lou, and Laura, while her daughter was Luna and her dog was Lula. Many shenanigans were had trying to work out which of us she actually meant in any given situation!

  45. Anon for This*

    This is a common tactic among men to diminish women in the workplace. Google “Tootsie: My name is Dorothy, not Tootsie” to see an epic rant on the subject.

  46. mbs001*

    LW2 – Your daughter should not be taking care of young children while her employer is paying her to work. Period. Perhaps they’re insisting she return to the office because she’s not doing her job but rather attending to her children while supposedly working from home? Sounds like she needs to find some part-time work elsewhere where she can then have time for her kids. But trying to get paid for full-time work while having two young children at home is trying to scam the system.

  47. Employed Minion*

    I now work somewhere where this happens. I am the woman in this scenario. it’s gross and seems rooted in sexism which others have covered.

    I’ve been here for 6 months and its still happening, to me and about me -people talk like they’re in private offices (and no one can hear) but they are 10ft away at most.

    In my case, it really does seem generational -and there is other sexism happening- its Mostly older men, and one woman. The woman finally started using my name but the men…

  48. Tiger Snake*

    Wait; an action that the public would regard as blatant sexism, occuring in a government office (and so help to a much higher level of public scrutiny) is low-stakes?

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