my coworkers are engaged but one of them is cheating … with my boss

by Alison Green on August 7, 2024

A reader writes:

My question is regarding a rather sticky situation I am unwillingly involved in. In short, I think I am reliving an episode of The Office. I have two colleagues who are about to get married to each other, let us call them Joe and Kate. Unfortunately, I know for a fact that Kate is having sex with Peter, who is my direct manager.

It’s an open secret in the office that Peter and Kate often go on “work trips” together, and everyone knows it except Joe. This isn’t speculation … because about a month ago, Peter and Kate were “gone” but there was a deadline to meet. So Peter joined one of our meetings via video, and we SAW KATE try to sneak behind, undressed. Fortunately, Joe wasn’t in the meeting (different team).

I am wondering what exactly I should do here? Morally I am against cheating, but also, and I can’t stress this enough, I just don’t want to deal with the mess of it all. However, the wedding is approaching and I have received an invite. I can’t in good conscience go to this wedding when I know what I know. I feel a moral compulsion to tell Joe, but is it even my business? Should I even get involved?

Other than this mess, I generally like my office and my coworkers. I am paid well for my role, and other than his less than stellar attitude towards sexual fidelity, Peter is a good manager who has my back. My industry is quite niche, and my skill set is specialised, so finding another job won’t be an issue. But, I am comfortable here and really don’t want to switch.

But every time I see poor Joe around the office, the guilt consumes me. I am so anxious about this, that my appetite has reduced and my husband and I have seriously started looking for a therapist for me to help me deal.

Oh no.

Whenever a question involves whether to tell someone their partner is cheating, you’ll find arguments on both sides, with some people strongly on the side of “the partner deserves to know / their health could be at risk / it will make it worse if they realize people knew and didn’t tell them” and others who argue that it’s not your business, you risk the person shooting the messenger, if they stay with the person your relationship with them won’t recover, some people would prefer not to know, etc. As a general rule — to the extent there can be one, which is not a lot — I’d say to let your sense of what the person would want you to do to be your guide, although it’s not always clear, and it’s sticky in the best of circumstances.

But this case is additionally complicated by the fact that these are your coworkers and the affair partner is your boss.

For the record, Kate and Peter are particularly horrible people for not only treating Joe’s heart with such casual disregard, but also for treating his professional life that way — for humiliating him in front of his colleagues (as that’s so often how this will feel), for putting the rest of you in this position, and for apparently not caring what this will mean for Joe’s ability to comfortably remain in his job if he finds out. All of that would be true even if they were being as discreet as possible, but their complete brazenness adds even more insult.

Importantly: are Peter and Kate in each other’s chain of command? If so, that’s a whole additional layer of Not Okay, and it’s a legal liability for your company.

As for what to do … ugh.

Because these are coworkers and presumably not close friends, it would be defensible to leave it alone. This sucks for Joe, but you’re not the one to blame for what’s happening, and you’re not ethically obligated to risk blowing up your work life. In theory, if Peter weren’t your boss, I’d more comfortable advising you to discreetly talk with Joe … but Peter is your boss, and even if you ask Joe not to cite you as his source, people say things when they’re angry and upset and betrayed and there’s no guarantee you wouldn’t be named. You’d like to think that if that happened, Peter — who you describe as “a good manager who has my back” — wouldn’t hold it against you, but there’s so much potential for this to explode on you professionally that I can’t in good conscience recommend it.

Do you have HR? If Peter and Kate aren’t in each other’s chain of command, HR may not care (although it sounds like it’s causing enough drama and distraction in your workplace that they should), but if there’s any reporting relationship there, it’s very much their business and that might be the easiest route to know you’ve done something about it.

Read an update to this letter. 

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{ 437 comments }

{ 437 comments… read them below }

  1. Maleficent*

    This is truly a damned if you do, tormented by guilt if you don’t situation. Ugh. There’s no wrong option here, OP. Just different (difficult) consequences either way.

    1. Artemesia*

      This is a rare situation in which an anonymous letter might be the choice. BUT only if you can absolutely be anonymous.

      1. Periwinkle*

        I agree with an anonymous heads up to Joe. This is an awful situation your coworkers have put you in! Everyone knows but Joe… If you can’t be totally anonymous, go to HR. This is causing problems in the workplace. I hope your stress gets better!

      2. jasmine*

        I don’t think anyone would trust an anonymous letter saying that their fiance is cheating on them

        1. Brittney*

          Really? Because I know someone whose first engagement ended because of almost exactly this: an anonymous letter from co-workers of the affair partners (in this case it was sent to the fiancé’s workplace; all 3 didn’t work together).

          He probably already has a feeling, and if so, this letter will fill in some blanks for him.

      3. Estrella the Starfish*

        Or set up a new email account for this purpose, then you don’t have to worry about how the letter gets there, or being opened and ditched by Katie. I presume OP has at least his work email address and can time it for the end of his work day.

        1. Reluctant Mezzo*

          Or totally old school, print it out with Times New Roman, and slip it onto his desk when you are utterly certain you will not be seen. (or you have a file you have to leave on his desk anyway).

          1. Rhymetime*

            Yes, no digital trail is important and paper can’t be traced. I actually did this once at a job many years ago.

            In my case, the letter was to a senior VP whom two women at my workplace told me was sexually harassing them including a promotion being tied to it. It was a large workplace and neither woman knew about the other. On my last day working there, I put an anonymous paper letter in his mailbox saying that I had seen what he was doing to women in the workplace–generic of course to protect the women who had told me–and that he needed to cut it out and I was watching him. I don’t regret it.

            1. Katara's side braids*

              Paper can’t be traced, but print jobs can (from an office computer/printer). Definitely tread carefully with any “anonymous” option – don’t underestimate how creative people can get when they feel threatened. I especially worry about how Peter would react, since he’s in a position of power and would essentially be “outed” for his professional misconduct.

        2. Lauren*

          I vote anonymous telling Joe. I don’t know that I trust HR to keep you anonymous with Peter being a manager. Use a printer not in the office. Go to a library if you don’t have one at home. Put it on his desk somewhere not so obvious everyone will see, but that he’ll notice. this is of course assuming the office doesn’t have security cameras in it. I would also advocate for being clear in the letter in stating the behavior that makes it clear they’re having an affair.

    2. Kaiko*

      I had someone tell me that my boyfriend was cheating on me, and I was like, “We can get through it!” so I married him and we went to therapy and we had a kid together.

      Ten years later, I am divorcing him because he can’t (or won’t) stop cheating.

      Telling Joe may not lead to him calling off the wedding. It may be something he suspects but doesn’t know for sure, and that plausible deniability might be keeping him going. He may break it off and quit his job and move across the country. But having been through this, I am generally in favour of telling the cheated-on partner and giving them the information about their partner before they make the big decision. There’s still time for Joe and Kate to call off the wedding, to postpone it, to break up. Or there’s time for them to work it out and stay together. But either way, telling is probably the right move.

      1. Despachito*

        But in this case this could have some serious repercussions for the OP that should be considered as well.

    3. Van Wilder*

      I normally err on the side of staying out of it, but I don’t think I could leave this one alone.

      1. Youngten*

        Same. Especially with cheating. Joe is essentially sleeping with Peter because that’s how this works. You end up sleeping with all the people your partner is sleeping with. But without the vital knowledge or consent

        1. Meh*

          a thousand percent certain Six Degrees is being facetious and responding to the ridiculous puritanical Christian “don’t have sex you’re just sleeping with everyone else that person has been with and now you’re a dirty petal-less rose” with their own ridiculous scenario

        2. LingNerd*

          This is a take I don’t love, because it’s often used to shame people (especially young women) about engaging in perfectly healthy consentual relationships.

          But yes, it does put Joe at risk of getting an STI because he presumably is operating under the assumption that he is in a closed relationship. And who knows if Peter might be sleeping with other people besides Kate, or if Kate might be cheating with people other than just Peter

      2. Ellie*

        I normally err on the side of speaking up, but since Peter is OP’s boss, this could easily blow up OP’s career, and that’s really not fair.

        If it was me, I would make up some excuse why I couldn’t attend the wedding, and discretely let HR know. But only if I could do it anonymously, or I trusted them to keep it confidential. I really think someone who could be so brazen about an affair with one of their employees, will absolutely try and take revenge when they’re outed for it.

        Another option might be to just make it really, really obvious to Joe what is going on. I’m thinking screen captures, etc. that are discretely left with his paperwork… is anything like that possible? If you can tell him, without actually telling him, that would be easiest.

    4. jasmine*

      Yeah I’m on the side of “morally you have to tell him” but I wouldn’t judge too hard if OP didn’t honestly

      OP, do you have any friends at work…? I’m wondering if this might be easier if maybe three of you approach Joe so you don’t have to take all the heat?

      I also think a therapist is a great idea, because while you say you really don’t want to leave, this sounds like one of those situations where you’re looking at what the office looked like in the past. You want things to go back to the comfortable way they used to be, but it sounds like that ship has already sailed. Is it worth fighting for a job that’s making you so unhappy?

    6. Geekish1*

      People are forgetting that OP is not the only one in the office that knows about this. The whole team saw the video call. Why is it only one person’s responsibility? I’m not saying the whole team should march up to Joe and tell him, but I think that if OP opts not to say anything (which I think is the safest course of action), she can feel free to spread the weight of the guilt around.

    7. Jellybeans*

      I actually know someone who went the letter route, and it turned out the people involved were all poly, and got very upset at being wrongly accused, and it turned into a huge mess.

      1. Princess Sparklepony*

        I was wondering if that could be an explanation. You never know what people are into. But it shouldn’t be a big thing then.

  2. Benihana scene stealer*

    It’s a tough situation but I wouldn’t say anything if it were me.. Ultimately it’s really not your business

    1. Sloanicota*

      I would not engage because Joe was not a close friend of mine – not close enough to have near-perfect insight on his POV. I would tell if he were someone like a sibling or a close enough friend that I was sure I knew his position. With someone you don’t know super well, try to assume they’re in some kind of open relationship and it’s none of your business and they don’t owe you an explanation about it. That may help assuage your guilt.

      1. Lea*

        I must admit this is awful for Joe and op but amazing as office gossip goes. On camera????

        If it were my work, I might try to make sure the gossip reaches someone outside of the managing structure that could be affected like op, but also is semi close to Joe and let them tell him? Feels most tactful, depending on how many people were on this call that saw them.

        2. Estrella the Starfish*

          I find this all a bit sus, because most people manage not to have their partner appear on camera on a work call in a state of undress, even when they aren’t sleeping with an engaged colleague. Are they just flaunting it now?

    2. Kevin Sours*

      The trouble is that Pete and Kate are doing their damnedest to make it OPs business. It’s hard to ignore the crazy when you are swimming in it.

      1. TigressInTech*

        This! And OP is so stressed out that they’re having trouble eating because of Peter and Kate’s indiscretions. It’s not just “Peter’s attitude to sexual fidelity” that’s an issue. If it was completely out of the workplace and discreet it wouldn’t be an issue, but this is firmly *in* the workplace. It’s no longer “none of your business” when Kate is undressed in the background of Peter’s work video call (!) and they’re being obvious enough in the workplace that seemingly everyone except Joe knows that they’re are having an affair.

    3. Nodramalama*

      Yeah I would rather quit and move to another country that get myself involved in this mess

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, I honestly don’t understand why the LW wants to stay at the current job, and especially as Peter’s employee. I have nothing but contempt for cheaters and I don’t respect them on a personal level. It’s really hard to work for a boss you don’t respect. Sure, polyamory exists but it’s not as common as cheating.

  3. NameRequired*

    This is not your burden of guilt to carry, you are not the one who created this situation, nor the one who made it so obvious, nor the only one who knows what is going on. This is very much not something that should be on your shoulders.

    I know you can’t just turn off your guilt like a light switch, but I want you to know that this is not your circus and these are not your monkeys. You can report the monkeys to HR if it makes you feel better about the circus in your backyard, but they are not your responsibility.

    1. Lorelai Lee*

      i would not say anything about this situation and i would one thousand percent go to that wedding in case something extremely juicy happened

        1. Clisby*

          I understand the impulse – for YEARS my younger sister and I attended every wedding we were invited to, in the hopes that we’d witness a Jane Eyre – like scene where the priest asks if anyone has any reason to object to the wedding and the brother shows up and says, “They can’t get married! He’s married to my crazy sister who’s locked in the attic!” Sadly, readers, we were disappointed over and over.

          Now, I would not say anything but I would not go to the wedding because I’d feel too sad.

            1. Old Woman in Purple*

              I’m unsure what to make of this comment. Are you the OP or one of the ‘cast of characters’? [confused]

              1. Productivity Pigeon*

                Clisby references Jane Eyre and its famous “madwoman in the attic”, and Pam Adams builds on that with a riff off the last line of Jane Eyre: “Reader, I married him.”

                1. linger*

                  I dimly recall reading a short story (I wish I could remember the title and author) with a survivors-turn-to-cannibalism plot, and the final line: “Reader, I marinated him.”

        3. Karl Havoc*

          This is a pretty crappy thing to say about the prospect of seeing a real person end up humiliated and heartbroken at his wedding.

          1. Estrella the Starfish*

            Yeah, this isn’t Grey’s Anatomy, it’s real people, one of whom could see his whole world collapse around him. Can’t say I’d be relishing that, but it’s clear neither would OP, given all their secondhand guilt.

        4. Anonymouse*

          How terribly unkind. OP is clearly a compassionate individual who is doing their best to treat their coworker with dignity. I’m sure if you were in Joe’s position you’d prefer to have that than someone gawking at your life falling apart with relish.

    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      This. This is not your burden. It is Kate and Pete’s burden.

      You are looking at therapy. I strongly suggest you follow through on that to figure out why the guilt for something you have no part in and want no part of is dragging you down so.

      BTW, feel free to have a “conflict” with the wedding date. If anyone asks why you declined the invitiation you can just say unmoveable conflict. Which is the absolute truth. You are way to conflicted to attend the wedding.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I actually agree that this is an unusual degree of emotional investment in your coworkers. I mean, don’t go to the wedding – I wouldn’t either – but probably every person you encounter on a daily basis is going through various soul crushing, gut wrenching things that you could in theory have some impact on if you really focused on it, and yet somehow we persevere.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          But we don’t usually know as much as seeing Kate undressed in the background, which is pretty hard to ignore. Also, all three of these people are coworkers, not just one person who is in a mess with two other people you don’t know or whom you at least don’t have to work with every day. I’m not at all surprised the LW is this involved given that s/he is surrounded by it.

          2. K in Boston*

            Agree with Dust Bunny — I think therapy is helpful regardless, because ideally OP shouldn’t feel a burden that isn’t theirs to carry…but I don’t necessarily find it surprising that OP feels a certain degree of emotional investment. They’ve seen the cheating firsthand (along with other people on their team), are close enough to Joe and Kate to be invited to their wedding, and seem to be required to interact with these people on a pretty regular basis. Joe, Kate, and Peter have involved OP against their will, whether they meant to or not, and I think it’s understandable that OP would have feelings about that.

          3. Sarah*

            IMO, that would have been the best time to speak up to HR.

            Address the fact that during a work video call, Kate was undressed in Peter’s hotel room and could be seen on camera. You wouldn’t have even had to get into the weeds of the Joe/Kate/Peter love triangle.

            Especially since they were on a “business trip,” which from the sounds of OP’s letter may or may not have been a legitimate business trip in the first place and could have been an abuse of company funds.

            1. Kay*

              I agree with this, and if OP does decide to do something, this is probably the easiest way (assuming HR is good and it won’t get out who said something).

            2. Sarah*

              That’s what eventually got rid in the worst boss I’ve ever had. (The misuse of company funds for “business travel” that was really for personal vacations, not the affair part.)

              Complaints had been made against that boss for years and years, but HR either couldn’t (or wouldn’t) get rid of her. We assumed she must have had some good dirt on someone higher up.

              Until observant staff members were able to document a pattern of “business” travel to places where there wasn’t really a business need. (For example, 6 “business trips” a year to Utah, where my boss loved to hike, even though less than 1% of our business was in Utah. She’d even come back and show us photos of all the hiking she did while on the “business trip.” It was bizarre.)

              Meanwhile, all the staff was being asked to cut expenses on trivial things like not keeping extra pens at our desks. Really? A few boxes of ballpoint pens wasn’t sinking our department budget, but the boss using the department budget as a slush fund to finance her personal travel sure was.

            4. TigressInTech*

              I’m glad someone else brought up the potential abuse of company funds! Also, unlikely but something to consider, *if* this is happening *and* OP is in a position that they “should have” been aware of the abuse of company funds, this may splash back on OP in unpleasant ways, within or outside of the company (even if it is unfair). This should definitely go to HR.

              Another thing HR may be concerned about: If Peter gives Kate a recommendation for a position (even if she is outside of his chain of command), they may give that recommendation more weight than if they were aware Peter and Kate had a relationship of some sort. There’s a reason recommendations from family or friends are accepted with an asterisk, if at all. Or if Peter has any sway to stop Joe’s progression through the company, that would be concerning to the company as well. Really, there are so many reasons HR should be concerned about this situation.

              1. Expelliarmus*

                See, my understanding was that while everyone is being told that these are work trips, they’re not silly enough to actually try to expense these trips. They are just “work” trips in name only.

                1. Somehow I Manage*

                  We don’t know that for sure, either way. And whether there are company funds being used or not, company resources are. Because if Peter and Kate are out on a “work trip” that has nothing to do with work, I’d bet the cost of the wedding that they’re not on PTO when they go. So there’s some form of theft going on.

        2. Olive*

          I don’t think it’s an odd amount of investment given that these are people the OP has to spend 40 hours/week with and the affair is constantly playing out right in front of the office.

        3. sparkle emoji*

          Peter and Kate’s behavior is both super objectionable and brazen. I think the brazenness is important. By doing this so openly, they are forcing others in the workplace to keep this secret or face potential job consequences. I agree LW doesn’t need to feel this amount of guilt over their actions and therapy is a good way to deal with it, but I can still understand this amount of emotional investment when LW has become involved against their will.

          1. Hyaline*

            This exactly. The argument of “it’s no one else’s business” doesn’t hold water here because these jerks have MADE it everyone’s business–using “work trips” to cover for the affair was bad enough, but actually having a nude cameo, yike.

      2. Caro*

        The thing is, it is actually somewhat the OP’s burden because by knowing something like this, something massive, where her boss is being made a fool and is about to enter a legally binding life commitment that they are invited to witness and thus be part of, they are aware of the devastation that almost certainly will eventuate.

        Lots of people think that they don’t want to involve themselves in drama and I am 100% sympathetic to that, but that is where the guilt comes from, from being all studiedly neutral in a situation where something horrible is happening.

        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Can we not with the legally binding life committment. It is a legal status yes, but one that can be undone.

          This really is not the OP’s burden. She is not one of the 3 people involved in it. Yes they are all coworkers but that’s just it. They work together. They aren’t family. They aren’t close friends. She needs to talk to someone about why she is so invested that she is not eating properly and losing weight.

          1. Anon in Canada*

            It can be undone, but can you imagine if the couple were to get married, and then quickly divorce due to the cheating, but then one of them gets ordered to pay alimony to the other? The one being forced to pay would be really upset (and rightfully so) that people who knew about it didn’t tell him or her before the wedding took place.

            We don’t know which state LW and her coworkers live in; while many states have reformed alimony and reduced/eliminated the possibility of this happening, there are still states where alimony could be ordered here.

            I know the story isn’t likely to be in Canada, but in the Canadian province that I live in, if someone owns a house under their name only and then gets married, they are giving half of it to their new spouse (even though the house was owned by one before the wedding), with no exception for short marriages or fault-based divorces. Can you imagine finding out within months that your new spouse was cheating all along, and then be required to pay half a million dollars to them (half the house) in order to divorce? And find out that people knew and didn’t tell you? Marriage isn’t just a ceremony.

            1. K in Boston*

              Yes, I didn’t read Caro’s “legally binding life commitment” comment to be about marriage being undoable, but to underscore the logistical, financial, and emotional difficulties that come with undoing it.

              I don’t believe that it SHOULD be OP’s burden because a wedding is involved, but I certainly understand that the wedding makes the stakes feel higher — especially if it’s someone you care about. Even if they’re not close friends with Joe & Kate, I think it’s reasonable to assume they at least previously had some warm feelings toward them, if they were invited to the wedding. (I know some people invite EVERYBODY, but at least where I am, weddings are expensive enough that you don’t just invite random coworkers unless you actually care about them.)

        3. Harvey 6'3.5"*

          It appears to be. While so unlikely as to verge on impossible, there is the chance that Joe and Kate have an open relationship or they are really a thruple with Peter or this is some other sort of complex relationship. Events will occur (or unlike, won’t). I wouldn’t get involved.

          1. Kyrielle*

            I’d report to HR because whether they have an open relationship or not, I do not want to see my coworker naked on video. Doubly so if it’s in the background of my *boss’s* video, but honestly, not at all.

            And if it were a camera malfunction like one of the mortification week posts (just the coworker in their own phone having an unfortunate moment), no, I wouldn’t report it, because that’s different. But sneaking through the background of the boss’s video? No. Just no.

            If Kate reports to Peter, doubly so, because I would worry Kate would be getting preferential treatment.

            But Joe is…sorry, Joe, Joe is a footnote in how I’d handle this. Getting involved *for Joe’s sake* would be an overstep unless he was a good friend, and it might be a job-risking overstep in this case.

            1. TigressInTech*

              I think this is the correct tactic. There are so many examples of bad judgement on the parts of Kate and Peter that it makes me question if they actually are good workers, or if Peter is actually a good boss. Why did Peter even turn on his video knowing Kate was unclothed in the same room? Yikes. If HR investigates it like they should, the truth will likely come out to Joe eventually.

      3. Humble Schoolmarm*

        I’m really sympathetic to OPs strong feelings. It’s one of those terrible ethical conundrums with no clear solution and not only are you trying to weigh the ethics of telling vs not, you also have very real life consequences of revealing what the boss has been doing. I mean, I’m guessing someone who’s brazen enough for this isn’t going to be opposed to retaliation. I definitely think therapy isn’t a bad idea to help the OP work through their feelings about this rotten situation, but I don’t think they’re off-base for having big feelings about this.

      4. sheesh mageesh*

        Exactly this. It’s one thing for the knowledge of this affair to be distracting in ways, but guilt? Anxiety to the point of having issues sleeping and eating? Over something that does not personally involve you in any way?

        For everyone who is suggesting this person write an anonymous letter/report this, have you considered how much more guilty and anxious they will be if they spill the beans and this completely blows up their workplace with drama? Because it will, and that will ratchet up their stress at least tenfold. This is an everything to lose and nothing to win scenario in terms of telling someone. Tell your therapist, but otherwise stay out of it.

        1. Never Knew I was a Dancer*

          Over something that does not personally involve you in any way?

          You’re not the only person to have made this kind of comment, but apart from the fact that people can form meaningful bonds with their coworkers and thus care when things aren’t going well for someone they personally know—

          Why would it be surprising for a human being to be distressed when they know that someone in their life is in a terrible situation and that harm is being caused to them (even if the subject isn’t aware of it yet)? When they are being forced to choose between wanting to help in some way vs. keeping a terrible secret to protect their livelihood?

          For the OP this is hardly a distant matter that they are completely uninvolved in. Like it or not, they’ve been brought into it by their boss and the fiancée. You or I might not face sleeplessness or loss of appetite due to that kind of stress, but it is completely understandable that the stress the OP is feeling is affecting them like this.

      5. jasmine*

        > I strongly suggest you follow through on that to figure out why the guilt for something you have no part in and want no part of is dragging you down so.

        There’s nothing strange with OP feeling guilt about this, nor do I think it indicates OP has something to unpack. This is a pretty normal way to feel and “I have to tell them they’re being cheated on” is a pretty normal moral stance.

        1. Elbe*

          Agreed. I get where the “this isn’t your problem, so just don’t worry about it!” take is coming from, but it also seems a little unrealistic. Of course people care when they see people they know and like being treated horribly.

          The LW is close enough to them that they have received a wedding invite. There’s no mention that it is an “everyone in the office got one” type of situation. It sounds like they are friends, even if they’re not BFF.

          Being the Joe in this situation would be a traumatic thing for a lot of people. I don’t think it’s weird to care about others, especially when the stakes are really high for the other person. It’s not easy to have information that could cause someone to change their entire life plan.

          Ultimately, I think the LW is justified in going whichever route they want to go. “I didn’t want to be involved” is a reasonable conclusion. “I think Joe has a right to this information before he makes significant life choices” is also reasonable.

    3. Hyaline*

      I usually wouldn’t advocate for an anonymous note but this is an exception—because so many people saw what happened, a note can simply say “I feel you needed to know but was too uncomfortable to bring it up personally: on June 3rd our team met with Peter and saw Kate in the background of the video in a state of undress.” Just facts, no speculation about those other “business trips”, and the ball is in Joe’s court to decide whether he wants to follow through on the tip. If on the odd chance they have an open relationship and he knows, no awkward conversation. If he doesn’t want to believe it, he can make that choice. In all likelihood he has suspicions already and this gives him the push to explore further. But I personally would have a hard time withholding information that could affect someone’s major life decisions.

      1. Ex-prof*

        This is where I got to in my cogitations as well. I don’t like anonymous notes. But in this case someone needs to tell Joe and no one should have to take the fall for the situation Kate and Peter have placed everyone in.

      3. Boof*

        Yes… no judgement to whatever OP decides but for me, half the reason to tell Joe is he’s about to make a huge legal commitment and as a fellow human being I’d want to try to know he had a heads up (yea maybe he’s in on it too who knows but that’s just it, at least then you’ll know Joe had a chance to be informed about something many people would consider dealbreaking)
        The other half is because I’m mad that LW’s boss and Kate put LW in this situation and I’d feel zero obligation to sweep their dirty laundry under the rug. I like to think I’d even call it out in the moment if I wasn’t too shocked “WOW IS THAT KATE BEHIND YOU WHAT’S GOING ON?” lol – but yea I’d probably be too shocked. Now I am prepared what to do if I ever see it on zoom tho!

  4. goof*

    Uhhhh anonymously send them the URL to this letter?

    Bad advice aside, I am really sorry for your involvement here, OP. When I was cheated on in a serious relationship, having work really helped ground my focus. Joe wouldn’t have that option.

    There is also the off-chance that this is ethically non-monogamy, but given its at WORK, I sort of doubt it.

    1. Seashell*

      I was thinking anonymous letter to Joe at his house or to HR if they have rules against this.

      1. Peter the Bubblehead*

        I wondered if maybe an anonymous note left on Joe’s desk after working hours? Something left in a place that only Joe would find it with a general, “I really think you aught to know what is going on before you take your vows” without giving away who is spilling the beans.

        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Why would anyone believe an anonymous note? Could be left by someone jealous, or just a nutcase.

          If you are going to tell, tell it. Don’t try to be anonymous.

            1. Lizzay*

              Oh, come now, I’m sure somewhere someone has actually stopped soaking their dishes in the office sink or started wiping down the microwave after use! /s

          2. Irish Teacher.*

            Yeah, if I were Joe, I would be really freaked out by an anonymous note here. It would just make me suspicious of everybody. Is my fiancée cheating? Has she got an enemy who is trying to split us up? Have I? Is it somebody targetting Peter and we are just collatoral damage? Is it from somebody who fancies me and want to split us up? Somebody who fancies Kate?

            I don’t think I’d believe it, because I’d presumably trust my fiancée more than an anonymous note but it would make me very uncomfortable and wary of my coworkers.

            1. sagentime*

              Everyone should be wary of an anonymous note. With that said, because in this situation the anonymous note is right on the money, there is a higher likelihood that Joe may already have suspicions. It gives him the opportunity to investigate or not. Its an imperfect solution but the best way to balance actually doing something with limiting risk for personal blowback

          3. Seashell*

            I would think if Joe goes to Kate with “our co-workers saw you naked in Peter’s room?”, the truth would come out unless she’s got Meryl Streep-level acting skills.

          4. Awkwardness*

            And Joe would likely be paranoid afterwards about who the writer was. That would be a bad situation.

            1. Venus*

              Kind of, except that if the note mentions seeing Kate in the video meeting then it’s clear that it could be one of many people, and LW said that everyone who works there knows.

          5. jasmine*

            This was my immediate reaction, but tbh anonymously sending someone the link to this AAM letter sounds a lot more convincing, even if it was suggested in jest….

        2. Panhandlerann*

          I, too, am thinking that this is a rare instance where an anonymous note is called for.

      2. WeAreUnanimousInThat*

        Anonymous email. Easier than a letter. Burner account at gmail, then include all of the details you have, including the Zoom call date and time, and note that multiple people witnessed it. Also cc HR.

        1. Caro*

          Agree. Even get someone totally unconnected with work to actually do the sending. Stress that you personally, along with others witnessed the thing, that it is not hearsay.

          If they weren’t about to get married, I would not, but this could save him from an even more humiliating terrible mistake that has expense and drama and all that unfairly heaped on him. Kate and Peter suck. Sorry, but they do.

          1. Ex-prof*

            Right. Marriage is hard to get out of. A week after his wedding, a friend of mine discovered what “everyone” (Except me. And him.) knew. His comment on the whole debacle was “It cost me $30 to get married and $1300 to get divorced.”

        3. INFJ*

          Anonymous email. Easier than a letter. Burner account at gmail, then include all of the details you have, including the Zoom call date and time, and note that multiple people witnessed it. Also cc HR.

          I would do this. And a tip for OP: don’t forget to mention yourself as a witness, if you want to stay anonymous as the “e-mail sender”
          (It would be very weird to include every witness but not yourself ;-) )

      3. Lea*

        I was thinking drop the gossip with someone who CAN tell Joe, I’m afraid anonymous might still blow back on op

    2. Scoody Boo*

      I was thinking something similar, actually. Could you make an anonymous burner email and send a note to Joe’s work account? There’s a chance it gets caught by the spam email.

      With the situation at work causing you so much stress that you need a therapist just to handle this one aspect, I don’t think the option to leave it alone and ignore is a particularly good one – this should be treated like all work situations where an aspect of the position is causing massive impacts on your personal life.

      I’d second Alison’s advice to take it to HR, but if you don’t trust them to act appropriately or they don’t end up doing so, a burner email might be your next best bet.

    3. Sara*

      I’d even say if this isn’t a remote company, type up a letter with details and leave it on Joe’s desk when no one else is around. Anonymous but clearly someone from work, and you’d know he’d definitely see it.

      Granted that might cause a scene if he’s a person to react immediately.

    4. Ultimate Facepalm*

      I really think anonymus letter is the way to go. Whatever Joe does or doesn’t do with that info is on him and you did your part.

    5. Beth*

      Agreed that it’s probably not a case where Joe knows and is on board, given the work relationships involved.

      Anonymous letters often don’t work well because it’s so easy to dismiss them–since the recipient doesn’t know who they’re from, they also don’t know whether they trust the author. In most situations, it’s better to just talk to the person. But in this case–where OP is feeling a lot of guilt about staying silent, but there are good reasons they can’t tell Joe to his face, and also the affair is pretty brazen and Joe is probably going to find evidence easily if he looks–it might be an option.

      HR is better, though, if there’s any chance they’ll handle it. That keeps OP further from the mess and drama.

      1. Venus*

        The meeting with undressed Kate had a big enough audience that it could be mentioned as evidence without giving away who wrote the anonymous email / letter.

        I would go to HR first if the company is big enough to have one. If not then the anonymous note to Joe. Whatever awkwardness exists now will be much, much worse if the marriage happens and Joe finds out later. It isn’t LW’s responsibility at all, and they can morally stay away from this if they prefer, yet it also has the potential to create a lot of workplace conflict so I can understand why LW is even contemplating saying something in the hope that it will be less painful for everyone if Joe knows before the wedding.

        1. Orv*

          HR feels risky. I think there’s a good chance they tell Peter who told them, either directly or indirectly, and then LW’s job is at risk. My experience is that HR is usually pretty buddy-buddy with management.

            2. LingNerd*

              Wasn’t the lunch thief actually sleeping with the person in HR in that situation? And then they both got fired when they were found out?

              1. Ex-prof*

                They were definitely up to something. I don’t remember if they were fired, or quit, but to begin with the LW was fired. Then unfired, IIRC.

              2. Hlao-roo*

                Yeah, the HR person fired the LW but the company owner caught wind of the plot and fired the HR person and lunch thief and then hired back the LW (with a generous raise).

                The original letter is “a coworker stole my spicy food, got sick, and is blaming me” from July 25, 2016 and the update was posted October 14, 2016.

          2. Somehow I Manage*

            Maybe. I think LW needs to indicate concern about potential for retaliation from Peter/Kate when they make that report. Something tells me there’s also something deeper to this than just an affair, though. Like some financial fudgery. Are these legitimate business trips? Does Kate need to be there? Is she getting a room on the company dime and not actually using it? While HR may be buddy-buddy with management, this seems like a pretty significant violation or violations and there are multiple witnesses. So perhaps the best approach would be a letter to HR from everyone who was on that meeting. Clearly LW is uncomfortable. I can’t imagine others wouldn’t share their discomfort.

        2. Humble Schoolmarm*

          My first thought was HR, but then I realized that isn’t really going to solve the Joe dilemma. It isn’t clear whether Peter is Kate’s boss, but either way the issue HR is going to tackle is some combination of favouritism and naked Kate on a work meeting. They aren’t going to care about Joe getting married under (presumably) false pretenses. I guess it is more likely to get out in the open if there is an HR investigation/consequences, but that’s not guaranteed.

        3. fhqwhgads*

          The meeting with undressed Kate had a big enough audience that it’s almost definitely too late to keep the cat in the bag, and it won’t matter if OP chooses to say something or not. Even if this has been an “everyone but Joe knows” sitch for a while, it’s gonna blow up one way or another, soon.

      2. Bruce*

        I understand the impetus to write an anonymous note, but remember that people commit murder over situations like this. Spelling out that the couple were seen in a particular Zoom call invites Joe to confront people who were on that call and ask them if they knew. This is worse than any of the notorious affairs I witnessed back in the wilder days of the 80s, at least none of them involved three coworkers and video evidence! I think talking to a therapist and keeping your head down is still the best advice.

        1. The Unionizer Bunny*

          OP, was Peter on everyone’s screens when Kate snuck behind him in the background? If not, it’s reasonable that not everyone would’ve seen her, and you can combine the anonymous HR report with, if you are ever questioned about it, dishonestly claiming that you didn’t see anything. That way, if Joe is upset with anyone for not saying anything to him, he won’t be upset with you. Also, the anonymous HR report shouldn’t say that you were upset – it should state that, as HR surely knows, there are conservative-minded workers who would be upset if they ever saw it. This removes it from “feelings that may be unique to you” (admittedly, the thought that you might work alongside people who don’t share your feelings may be even more upsetting to you than the thought that two of your coworkers don’t share your inhibitions), and places it in the perspective of “someone who is aware that you exist” or “aware that anyone exists” if you are not alone in these feelings.

          1. Azure Jane Lunatic*

            Unless it was recorded, OP could plausibly claim to have been blowing her nose or removing a cat from the desk or something at the crucial moment.

      3. Orv*

        If you go the anonymous route do not print it at work. It’s relatively easy to figure out who printed a particular document.

        1. Katara's side braids*

          This!!! I’m so concerned about all the suggestions to print things out. Print jobs on office computers can be tracked. Even if the note is printed at home, if the building has security cameras it’s easy enough to figure out who left the note.

    7. Tio*

      The thing about anonymous letters/emails/texts/skywriting is that they’re so, so easy to discredit. Someone’s jealous, or out to get you, or wants a chance with Joe, whatever. I don’t think it’s going to work.

      Maybe, MAYBE if you spell out the meeting incident Joe would have enough to go onto ask around… but even then, you’re probably not going to have a great outcome.

    8. Jessica*

      Anonymous letter is never the way, y’all, never. I understand why so many people are suggesting it but what that tells me is that you haven’t experienced it. An anonymous communication shifts the recipient’s focus from the substance of the communication to the question of who sent it and why. And it poisons their whole life. Don’t do this.

      1. Hyaline*

        I would argue that if someone receives a note from a colleague referencing a specific incident that many people saw, and their reaction is solely “Who sent me this” then that’s deflection. An understandable deflection, but better than them poisoning their life with an unfaithful, lying, and callous spouse IMO.

      2. Forrest Rhodes*

        Strong agreement with all you said, Jessica. Anonymous letters never accomplish anything good.

  5. MsSolo (UK)*

    Does Joe not know about the ‘work trips’ at all (as in, he doesn’t know Kate is travelling for work with Peter) or does he just not know they aren’t truly for work? Because if it’s the former, I think there’s space to raise that you saw Kate on Peter’s camera without laying out specific accusations, and let him find out what is going on for himself while retaining his privacy and dignity (and it hopefully not coming back to bite you from Peter). If it’s the latter, I don’t think there’s a way of raising it without specifically announcing that she’s cheating (and everyone who was on that call knows it too), which massively increases the odds of it all blowing up.

    1. BureauCat*

      I think this is a good point/suggestion (re: OP simply mentioning to Joe that they observed Kate on Peter’s camera, undressed). It’s first-hand, objective information rather than a rumor or an accusation.

      However, it of course ultimately could blow up on OP in all of the same ways that Alison mentions.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If he was on a work call during a “work trip”, with an undressed coworker in the room who was not clever enough to stay off camera, I think HR deserves to be looped in for so many reasons.

        1. MsM*

          Ditto. If they’re being that careless, who knows what other issues in terms of professionalism or focus this is going to cause before it’s over?

      2. Harper the Other One*

        This. The affair is crummy but might not rise to that level. The fact that they exposed everyone to sexual behaviour is absolutely HR worthy.

        2. StressedButOkay*

          Yes! None of you should have been exposed to an undressed coworker or the fact that there was clearly sexual behavior. That is something I’d reach out to HR for and, if you have a way to do it anonymously, all the better.

        3. Tio*

          I agree that should be taken to HR, but also, HR is not necessarily going to inform Joe about any of it. They might call Kate and Peter in for a talking to, especially if they’re in chain of command then they definitely SHOULD, but I can’t imagine HR telling Joe that they saw his fiancee undressed in another employee’s hotel room. So there may be some repercussion for Kate and Peter, but it sounds like what OP wants is for Joe to know, and that’s not likely going to lead to that outcome.

          Should still report it though. If it’s been a while, you can say you were conflicted but it’s been bothering you and you decided to say something.

          1. Somehow I Manage*

            Depending on what transpires with HR, though, it may come to Joe’s attention anyway. Maybe not as swiftly as telling him. But it minimizes drama which is probably the best for OP in the grand scheme of things.

        4. Ess Ess*

          Exactly this. This moves it into official ‘Hostile Work Environment’ definition. Seeing coworkers in state of undress, obviously have relations with the boss, on a work call.

      3. Not that other person you didn't like*

        Yeah, you can treat this entirely as an inappropriate behavior at work situation rather than a cheating in your social circle situation.

      4. Michaela T*

        Same – these people are not working hard enough to keep their private mess separate from their professional lives.

      5. Dust Bunny*

        yeah, that’s just super bizarre, anyway. Even if she . . . fell into the hotel fountain and lost her room keys, or some other rom-com-level ridiculousness, you would expect them to be professional enough to not be naked in the same room and stay off camera.

        1. Lea*

          4 years of zoom/teams/webex calls has taught me that this is sadly not the case

          We have multiple accidental work examples

      6. Butterfly Counter*

        Exactly. I’d be most upset that I felt like I was put in this position by being in a normal business meeting I was required to be at. It was probably an accident on their part, but it feels very similar to your boss having a captive audience, then exposing himself.

        Not okay.

      8. Somehow I Manage*

        Yep. While accidents happen (see Mortification Week posts) on camera, when your boss logs in to a meeting and his reports see a colleague naked in the background, HR needs to know. It would actually be really beneficial if everyone on that meeting agreed to go to HR together.

      9. Lea*

        There is another high risk option – somebody tell Kate and pete they were seen together and everybody know and it will get back to Joe so they should be honest with him and hope that works?

        1. Festively Dressed Earl*

          That’s why Ned Stark didn’t make it through the first season. No way should LW or any of their coworkers risk retaliation from Kate or Pete.

      10. learnedthehardway*

        This is a very legitimate POV – once there is a coworker undressed on camera, it becomes a matter of professional judgment and discretion, and thus an HR issue. Who the heck tries to sneak around undressed in the middle of a video conference? That’s just idiotic.

      11. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, that does seem like an HR issue. Particularly if he’s in her chain of command or the work trip… wasn’t actually for work.

      12. Project Maniac-ger*

        Agree. Nobody should be seeing their coworkers naked, especially in the hotel room of everyone’s boss, except in very very specific occupations of which OP and their coworkers do not seem to have.

    3. Anne Elliot*

      Another person endorsing this: the undressed coworker ducking out of a work Zoom call is where it’s firmly in HR territory IMO. They are exposing not just you but multiple colleagues as well to an untenable and highly uncomfortable situation; they are generating piping hot goss that you literally cannot ignore when it is _right there in your work meeting_; they are making your ignorant colleague a subject of talk and potentially amusement over a situation he knows nothing about; and they are placing you in the untenable position of either seeming to condone adultery if you don’t say anything or unkind and meddling if you do.

      To me, the most helpful perspective is that it doesn’t matter what the conduct is, it matters that they are making you and your coworkers uncomfortable and less productive in your work space. That is not okay. I honestly don’t care if a person’s personal habits involve six other people, a whole gym of toys, and a vat of margarine. I just don’t want to see it or hear about it in my workplace without my permission. When the affair partner is crawling out of frame in her scanties — that’s when I’d go to HR. I probably would vote for ignoring anything less, but that — nah. Not okay.

    4. Awkwardness*

      I think this is the option I would prefer. Raise it in a very casual way, no talk about sex/affairs, and the rest is for him to figure out.
      This gives enough plausible deniability no matter if he knew/didn’t know/doesn’t care. Also, you cannot be accused of stirring the pot because it was for all to see (and they brought this upon themselves in their carelessness).

      But, to be honest, this is only because I would feel equally bad as LW. All rational arguments are in favour of leaving it alone. Joe could know it/be ok with it. Joe would very likely have a bad time at work if he finds out and realises he has been humiliated the whole time, but he might have an equally bad time if he finds out and realises nobody of his close colleagues ever said something to him even though they knew (or maybe they have and we don’t know).

  6. anononon*

    Is this the kind of thing where an anon note/email might be ok? I agree that HR is probably most sensible but an anon note with specifics spelled out rather than just generic “I think you are being cheated on” might work here?

  7. Jane S*

    It’s nobody’s business but Joe Pete and Kate. Unless there is a suspicion that Kate is receiving preferential treatment, raises or promotions due to her affair with Pete, it’s best to just not go to the wedding. If Kate is getting preferential treatment or perks at work, then go to HR and discuss your concerns about that — especially if you feel you were unfairly excluded from an opportunity that she received and you felt you were more qualified to receive. Workplace relationships in my opinion are bad all around. Make it a point to never get involved with a coworker.

    1. dulcinea47*

      I think it becomes LW business when the affair is literally shown to the entire team on zoom. That’s incredibly inappropriate regardless of the relationships between the coworkers.

      1. Benihana scene stealer*

        It is inappropriate, but doesn’t necessarily require any action on LW’s part. Personally I’d stay out of it as LW seems to want to

      2. Lea*

        100% agree.

        These affair people forced it on everyone by being shady AT WORK

        I really think the report it to hr people are on point

    2. Liz*

      Except that it is already impacting other coworkers. They feel uncomfortable, are expected to lie by omission and not reveal Kate’s whereabouts, and the potential fallout when the inevitable happens will affect everyone.

      1. TigressInTech*

        The tacit expectation to lie is definitely not good here. Even if Peter *is* a good manager in some ways, he is *not* a good manager overall because a good manager should not put their team in a position where they feel pressured to lie (to their coworker, to HR, to other higher-ups at the company, etc). He’s also involved them in his personal business by being very obvious about his personal affairs at work, which is another strike against him imo.

    3. constant_craving*

      Eh, when you’re appearing naked on a call with your coworkers, it does start to become their business.

  8. Myrin*

    Oh goodness, there are a lot of letters where I think “Hooo boy am I glad to not be in the OP’s situation!” but this one is really, truly one where I’m so incredibly glad I’m not in the OP’s situation! Alison’s back-and-forth in this whole answer is literally exactly how I feel.

    1. Lea*

      Pre zoom I had a coworker cheating with a boss which was bad enough (and when it blew up marriage the ap left the job)

      But god all three in the office would have been a nightmare

    2. TechWorker*

      Even more glad not to be in Joes position – poor Joe! I know OP said ‘fortunately Joe was not in the meeting’ but honestly at least he would have found out & not had loads of people speculating :(

  9. CB212*

    I would at least go to HR with “our team saw this on a video call” because even if they aren’t in a chain of command, that is nothing you all should have had to witness. That may not end it (maybe they’ll just be more discreet) but that’s an easy action to take and it sounds like multiple coworkers saw it.

    1. Silver Robin*

      I agree; this is unprofessional to begin with, regardless of the other context and gives HR an in to start investigating. If your fiancee is getting investigated by HR, you might have questions about why.

    2. Mehitabel*

      I am in agreement here. Go to HR; report what you saw on the video call; and then leave it with them.

    3. Ready for the weekend*

      I was going to say this too; is there a recording of the call? I would also go sooner than later because as the call becomes more dated, memories slip and it’s your word against theirs.

      1. Mark*

        I agree with this. Seeing a work colleague in a state of undress in the presence of your manager is NOT acceptable for the rest of the team at the meeting. I would definitely go to HR or the bosses boss and say – it was not acceptable for me to see this (up to you to name names) and I want to ensure it does not happen again, but I also want to be protected from backlash from my manager as I worry this will happen.

        I see you want Joe to go into the marriage with full knowledge of Kate’s behaviour but really not your place to say.

        Really sorry you are stuck and suffering in this environment.

    4. Emmie*

      I came here to say this. You should not be subject to seeing a coworker in a state of undress on a professional work call. If OP has the emotional capacity to do so, I recommend reaching out to HR or the company’s ethics hotline with a description of what happened, and the time/date of the call. You are not policing the employees’ affair but sharing pertinent information.
      If OP needs to hear this: you are not required to go to the wedding. It is perfectly acceptable to have an unexpected invitation.
      And what a shame that Peter and Kate could negatively impact everyone’s relationship with Joe.

    5. Dark Macadamia*

      Yeah, the personal aspect is hard to address but seeing an undressed coworker in your boss’s background on a work call is pretty objectively inappropriate and could be raised to HR as a concern about being exposed to a sexualized work environment, regardless of all other factors.

    6. EJ*

      Especially if you can do as Alison often says and do it as a group… if you can get everyone who was on the call to report it to HR together then it adds protection from any blowback

  10. Tim*

    It’s possible that Joe is aware, but doesn’t want to acknowledge it on front of his coworkers. It’s even possible that he is fine with it. Not everybody has exclusive relationships. Maybe the three of them (Joe, Kate, Peter) are in it together. Even then, it feels wrong that they are careless about it since that put you and other coworkers in a weird situation.

    1. Lab Boss*

      I thought of that too but yeah, it’s still not OK. At best they’re careless enough to make it weird, and at worst they’re titillating themselves by creating sex drama at work.

    2. Silver Robin*

      Yeah, maybe do not have your other relationship be the boss of your coworkers and maybe do not keep it so poorly hidden? If you are sneaking around like you are cheating on your fiance, people are going to assume that this is exactly what you are doing. All the risks of dating at work, across seniority lines, and now adding ENM or polyamory to it? risky risky business

      1. sparkle emoji*

        Yeah, I think it’s bad judgement to have an open relationship involving several people in one workplace. Even if everyone involved is on the same page, this letter is how it looks to people on the outside if they find out. At a minimum, assuming this is ENM or poly, the indiscretion and nudity in the workplace is concerning. The undress over zoom HR material either way.

    3. Beth*

      Plenty of people have non-monogamous relationships–myself included–but this doesn’t feel like that to me. It’s one thing to be fine with your partner seeing other people. It’s a different thing to be fine with your partner seeing your manager, and a VERY different thing to be fine with them being so blatant about sneaking around together that your entire work team knows and thinks that your partner is cheating on you. I’m sure there are a few people out there who would do that, humanity is vast, but it’s really not a normal ENM situation. Cheating is way more likely.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      However, speculating on that is definitely beyond the purview of the LW, and it doesn’t change the fact that seeing unclothed coworkers on camera is not OK.

    5. Humble Schoolmarm*

      But if they are in a non-monogamous situation, isn’t telling Joe the right thing? I mean, the argument against telling is that it will blow up Joe’s life and he may take that out on OP, so if OP tells him and he already knows he can just keep on keeping on. OP has a weight lifted and Joe doesn’t even need to out himself (well, themselves), just say that he and Kate worked it out, the wedding’s still on, thanks for your concern.

    6. Elbe*

      Honestly, I think the “it could be ENM” take is wishful thinking. It’s not impossible, but it’s also not very likely.

      If everything were on the up-and-up, Kate and Peter wouldn’t have to use “work trips” to go away together. I think that the reason that this is spilling over so much into the workplace is specifically because they are using their work relationship as a cover to keep Joe in the dark.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        It doesn’t even have to be an ENM situation for Joe to potentially know. It could be a sitch where they’re sneaking around and think he doesn’t know, but he does, but as long as she’s not called off the wedding, he’s ok with it. Not because he’s necessarily ok with the cheating, but some people can talk themselves into all sorts of things, and as long as they haven’t been explicitly dumped, they consider it a win.
        I mention this possibility mainly to try to help ease OP’s mind. It’s certainly not the most likely scenario, but there soooooooo many variables and it’s not OP’s job to try to predict or assess or do annnnnnnything about this hot mess.

  11. Fluffy Fish*

    So if you are comfortable, I do think you have standing to raise with HR re: colleague sneaking around naked in background of bosses zoom. That put you and others in a position of being privy to colleagues/bosses sex life which aside from the cheating is a no go at work and any decent HR will absolutely say something. They also may be concerned with using company assets to carry on an affair.

    1. umami*

      One thing I can’t quite tell from the letter is whether Peter is Kate’s boss. He is OP’s boss, but I’m not sure if Kate is in his chain of command.

      1. umami*

        But I would add that regardless of reporting chain, it’s a bad look and shows poor judgment on both their parts, so yes, involving HR with what was seen feels appropriate in this context.

        1. Fluffy Fish*

          absolutely. a similar situation was happening to a friend and HR didn’t care about what two consenting adults were doing but they 100000% cared that company email/im was being used. they also cared that one was a high level manager and exhibited this judgement. one was fired the other was written up.

          2. AnotherLibrarian*

            Yes. This is what happened when two colleagues of mine were having an affair that made everyone uncomfortable. Eventually, a person from another department walked in on them… passionately embracing in a staff area (as far as I know, all clothing was on) and that caused both of them to be reassigned to different departments. HR cared nothing about them cheating on their spouses, but cared a lot about the inappropriate workplace behavior. Last I heard they are happily married to each other… so, I guess it all worked out.

      2. Myrin*

        I assumed Kate isn’t in his chain of command since that would be a pretty important detail for OP to leave out. Also, the fact that she specifically called Peter “my direct manager” instead of something like “Peter, who manages both me and Kate” or whatever. But who knows, OP is clearly distressed and all manner of things can slip our mind in such a situation!

    2. Ann*

      Completely agree about the naked Zoom and company assets definitely needing to be reported, yikes

  12. korangeen*

    I agree that this isn’t really your business, other than it being a pretty distracting and uncomfortable situation to have at work, especially with it involving your direct manager (and revealing that he makes very questionable decisions.) I like the telling-HR route, and then just staying out of it as much as you can. And go or don’t go to the wedding, whichever feels more comfortable for you.

  13. Silver Robin*

    Genuine question: why not talk to Kate? It may be an open secret but if nobody has actually expressly pointed out to her that everybody knows, then she might very well still be lying to herself that it is a secret. If confronted with the fact that, actually, the whole office/team knows and what she is doing is horrible, what happens? Because it is her responsibility, more than Peter’s, to not do this (assuming no chain of command issues). Peter is awful, but he is not the one promising fidelity, Kate is. Talking to Kate also allows for that sliver of possibility that this is something she and Joe have already discussed (it always comes up in the comments section); but it also means she needs to different ways to deal with that because she is treating it as a sordid secret and folks are therefore interpreting it as one. You also have the option of saying some version of “you need to stop, tell Joe, or someone else probably will; I mean you invited us all to the wedding!”. If she claims it is consensual all around, “great! so if I ask Joe, he will say the same?”

    Lastly, wondering about talking to other coworkers who know what you know and coming up with a plan together? Even if it is just to say “I cannot abide Joe not knowing, so I am going [insert plan here], please have my back” or “we should address this with Kate, how do we go about it”. It does not have to be a solo mission, does it?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      If you talk to Kate and she says “oh, Joe’s okay with it” do NOT take that as fact. Please confirm with Joe as well.

      1. duinath*

        I would go ahead and say, don’t talk to Kate about this under any circumstances. Joe is a maybe, with extreme caution, Peter and Kate are showing signs of Poor Morals (not definite proof, but signs) and that can extend beyond just cheating.

        Talking to them might lead to being thrown under the bus. Any bus. Random busses. Do not engage.

        1. Ready for the weekend*

          I wouldn’t either. You don’t know how Kate would react and it ultimately will be your word against hers. She could also tell Joe her side of the story and Joe might believe her over you. I would maybe pass on going to the wedding; if you feel up to it, just give Joe a card or something small.

      2. umami*

        The only thing I think would be potentially reasonable to bring to Kate’s attention is what was actually seen on the video call. Nothing else, just a ‘hey, I don’t know if you realise that on X video call we had with Peter on X date, those of us on the call saw you in the background.’ You don’t have to say anything about sex or an affair to let them know what was seen by multiple people. (I’m not sure I would do this, but if OP is thinking of saying something to either of them, this could be an option).

        1. TigressInTech*

          I’d only do this if I was sure that Kate wouldn’t blow up my career or say anything to Peter (because Peter might then impact my career), and it seems Kate’s judgement is poor enough that I wouldn’t be sure of any of that. And honestly, that incident was incredibly poor judgement on both Kate and Peter’s parts. My fiance works from home and I don’t walk behind him *at all* if he has his video on (because it’s distracting and, especially in the summer, I’m dressed for housework, not work), and if I must pass by his desk, he turns off the video for a moment. It would have been so easy for them to briefly turn the video off so that Kate could get out of the way of the camera.

      3. TeapotNinja*

        There’s no way in hell I would get in the middle of anything even close to that at work. Maybe, and that’s a BIG maybe, if both Kate and Joe were close friends of mine, but for colleagues I’m not friends with??? Absolutely not.

      4. BigLawEx*

        This is 100% the plan if LW were *IN* the relationship. But honestly, this is a cover-your-eyes and pretend ignorance situation if there ever was one. Plus, maybe someone else will say something. That’s quite a large conspiracy of silence, otherwise.

    2. Seashell*

      Then Kate could turn it into “LW is all up in my business; she’s the worst!” with the rest of the office. Maybe not everyone will believe her, but it has the possible result of Kate, Peter, and some others in the office hating LW or creating drama for her/him.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Ok, talking to other coworkers about it kind of moves it into skeezy gossip. And yes, I’m sure there is already skeezy gossip happening, but deliberately seeking out your coworkers to dish the dirt on how you saw Kate naked on Pete’s camera the other day, and what should we do about it?? is turning that up to 11, IMO.

      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Um, what? There is no dirt to dish. They all saw it. It’s not gossip. It’s fact.

        Talking to coworkers to discuss how they all want to handle the secret they’ve been forced into keeping against their will is *not* skeezy gossip.

        I don’t know if I would take that tack, but it’s not morally wrong to bring the thing we all know into the light. Enabling dirtbags is the skeezy thing.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Ok, your mileage may vary. But if I saw it, and then someone else came to me and was all “Did you see Kate, half-naked, on Dave’s camera during the teapot meeting last week? What should we do about that?” I would not participate in that discussion with them and my opinion of them would absolutely be harmed as a result.

          1. jasmine*

            My opinion of them would rise, honestly. “what should we do about it?” takes it from gossip to “we’re all in an uncomfortable situation and want to do the right thing”, and I’d respect them for being brave enough to open that conversation

        2. Benihana scene stealer*

          It’s not wrong, but also the OP has no obligation to do anything at all if they don’t wish to.

    4. Laid Back*

      Agree to talk to Kate. She should know that everyone knows, it’s her relationships, it’s her responsibility. She and Peter had a responsibility to be more discreet and not allow their coworkers to encounter their personal business, they can discuss that between themselves.

      1. sparkle emoji*

        Eh, to me this just feels like it’d be helping Kate cheat better. It seems like it’s getting overly involved and it doesn’t help Joe at all, which is who LW’s concerned about from my reading.

    5. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      I do not think OP should get this Involved. This would be a direct dive into the middle of drama. No way.

    6. Beth*

      I don’t get the sense OP actually wants to be involved in the mess. If they’re willing to get involved, talking to Joe directly makes more sense than trying to discuss it with Kate–Joe’s the one OP is worried about. But I think OP is actually looking for a way to resolve their guilt and discomfort with this situation that doesn’t involve getting in the middle of it.

    7. anon for this*

      F*** Kate (oh wait, Peter’s already doing that)…

      Seriously, though, there’s a non-zero chance that talking with Kate is only going to blow up on the OP.

      I would encourage OP to find a way to let Joe know, and/or go to HR re the video call.

      Because I gotta tell you, when I found out that everyone at my husband’s office knew what was going on with him and a co-worker, but no one let me know, I was not happy with those co-workers and I am not friends with any of them any more.

      1. Caro*

        Agree. I would find a way, a burner email account with the precise and specific details of the Zoom call that a lot of people were on, to anonymously and in neutral terms let Joe know what was happening, and stress that the *only* reason for this is that he is getting married so soon, and it is information that may influence his thinking going forward.

        This definitely works if there were quite a few people who saw it. If it were me, because I am a coward, I’d rope in someone completely and totally unconnected to you in any obvious way to set up the burner account / send the details. At that point, it’s Joe’s to deal with.

      2. Meow*

        I had that thought too, if I were in Joe’s shoes, and literally everyone knew but me… that might be almost as hurtful as the cheating.

    8. Great Frogs of Literature*

      Personally, I’d worry that talking to Kate would have all the potential downsides of talking to Peter. (She MIGHT not tell him. But if she does, and it’s reasonable to assume that she might, that potentially puts OP in a VERY sticky situation.)

    9. Ellis Bell*

      This is actually more dangerous than talking to Joe. Joe could go either way on protecting OP and keeping them out of it, but Kate almost certainly will not; a lot of cheaters go all out to destroy the credibility of people who seem troubled about being in the know.

    10. Snow Globe*

      I wouldn’t talk to other coworkers about it, but if the OP is on good terms with Kate, yes, tell her what was seen on the call by everyone in the office, and gently point out that at this point it is highly likely that it will get back to Joe since numerous people are aware. Then Kate can decide if she wants to tell Joe or call off the wedding or just keep sneaking around.

    11. Somehow I Manage*

      I think this has so many more negative outcomes than positive ones. If OP is going to talk to anyone about this, it really needs to be HR. And it doesn’t have to be about an affair. It is simply that Kate was naked in the background when Peter logged on to a call. That’s enough to make most people somewhat uncomfortable.

    12. Awkwardness*

      She is about to get married to a co-worker and having an affair. With a co-worker, maybe even her manager.
      Unless Joe is ok with this, I would not count on her morals suddenly getting back on track just because the team knows.

    13. Madeleine Matilda*

      I would talk to Kate but only to say to her matter of factly, “I thought you should know that when you were on your work trip to X, people saw you walk behind Peter undressed when he was on our meeting about Y.” We don’t know if she and Joe are monogamous or not, but she may want to know that people did see her. You could do it anonymously as well. Or if she has a good work friend maybe they would be willing to let her know.

    14. bamcheeks*

      That would be my take too. If it was “just” a workplace affair I probably wouldn’t, but *invited to the wedding* and *visible in camera* takes it into “frankly you are insulting my intelligence and my integrity by putting me in this position and you can f*k off.”

      I am genuinely very angry with people who put me in the position of knowing that they are having an affair, and making me complicit in deceiving their partner. It’s not ok! For me it’s not about “should I or shouldn’t I tell the deceived person”, it’s making it clear to the person who expects me to cooperate with their deception that I didn’t consent to that and they need to stop making me part of it.

      But I think I would also be looking for another job.

    15. Hyaline*

      The furthest I would go in talking to Kate would be to CC her on the anonymous note I give to Joe…

    16. jasmine*

      I doubt Kate will mend her ways because OP mentions she knows. Best case, she’ll be more sneaky about it.

      1. allathian*

        Kate can cheat if she wants, but involving her coworkers in her relationhips like this is not ok.

  14. Data Nerd*

    Is there room in the conversation with HR for “this affects me in the following ways”? If you’re having to cover for them when they’re on their work trips, if you’re at the point of looking for a therapist, then it’s not true that it’s none of your business. Your own mental health is very much your business, and if nothing else, I would imagine the workload increase during their time away as well as the gossiping about the relationship are greatly affecting your productivity.
    Another thing I would personally be looking at if I were investigating on HR’s behalf: does Peter’s role involve money at all? Is there a code of ethics that binds the management at his level? I don’t see how the company trusts him after this comes out.

  15. umami*

    IDK, outside of not wanting to touch this situation at all, I think I would suggest OP saying something to Kate re. seeing her in the background of a video call with Peter when they were out of town.

  16. Lab Boss*

    I’ll suggest another possible twist- could Joe know? It seems hard to believe the whole office knows other than him, especially considering the regular “business trips” and Kate being indiscreet enough to appear undressed on camera. This could be some kind of weird game the three of them are playing, with the rest of you as unwilling witnesses.

    That said, I couldn’t live with myself without telling Joe (although I know that’s not a universal truth). Normally I don’t like anonymous notes but that’s what I’d probably do here- it gives Joe the space to process and decide how he wants to proceed, it keeps my name out of the fallout, and I never have to know what Joe does or what he already knew. I’d just be sure to include specific examples and evidence so he knew it wasn’t just someone trying to start drama.

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      It’s also possible Joe is determined not to know. I mean, it’s possible he sees some of the clues like others do, but thinks “Kate would never do that to me,” “it’s ridiculous the way people assume a man and a woman can’t be close colleagues and friends,” “any gossip is just because everybody is jealous of Kate because she is so awesome at her job and Peter always wants her to accompany him because he can’t manage without her, which is perfectly understandable; clearly she is awesome,” “yeah, this would be suspicious out of context but I know Kate and Peter and the relationship they have and clearly, in this case, it’s zebras, not horses.”

      It’s easy not to see stuff if you really don’t want to or if you don’t want to be “that” person who always thinks the worst of your SO/doesn’t want them ever spending time with the opposite gender or trusts your SO so you don’t judge them by the same standards you would other people.

      I’m not saying you couldn’t be right, mind you, just that I also think it’s possible he genuinely doesn’t know.

    2. Great Frogs of Literature*

      If everyone else works more closely with Peter and Kate than he does, I could imagine that it’s obvious to them in a way that it isn’t to him. And certainly, I would’ve been very annoyed if people close to me had jumped from “Frogs goes on week-plus business trips with this coworker” to “Frogs is sleeping with coworker” on little or no evidence. (To be clear, I’m not suggesting that OP is, but possibly that’s the level of evidence that Joe has.)

    3. Elbe*

      Even if the situation is gossiped about in the office, I think it’s entirely likely no one is gossiping to Joe about it. It’s 100% possible that he is in the dark. Or, that he knows something isn’t quite right but can’t pinpoint what it is.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      Cheaters often concentrate so much on only hiding it from one person that it’s visible from all other perspectives. It’s really not unusual to be this blatant at work; as OP says no one wants to rock the boat where they get a paycheck.

  17. European*

    Maybe Joe knows and doesn’t mind ? Monogamy is really not the only way.

    If you truly feel that you need to let Joe know, though, isn’t it the moment for an anonymous note ? It absolutely sucks, but you can mention in it that you know it’s a terrible to learn that you are cheated on but that you are worried about repercussions.

    1. Jam on Toast*

      We’re strongly discouraged from speculating about events not described in the letter. Joe and Kate and Peter can all be sleeping with Bob and Ted and Alice if they so desire….outside of work!! It’s like the old AAM letter with the person who wanted to wear a collar and have people refer to her Dom as Master. It’s not the sexual choices that make the behaviour offputting, it’s the imposition of that explicit sexual behaviour on other non-consenting onlookers in the workplace that makes it unacceptable.

      Whether Joe is an unwitting victim or a willing participant to Peter and Kate’s sexual interests IS IRRELEVANT!!! No one else should be forced to participate in, or witness, their co-workers’ sexual interactions while they are working and that includes the LW. It creates a hostile work environment and isn’t acceptable. Full stop.

      1. European*

        But that’s really not the premice of this letter. The LW isn’t writing about being forced to witness the sexual life of their boss, but whether they should ethically let someone know that they are being cheated on.
        And one of the answers is : you don’t whether this person is actually being cheated on.

        Also, that’s not what a hostile environment is.

        1. Great Frogs of Literature*

          In the US, being exposed to sexual content at work (depending on precise context) can be Hostile Work Environment. If I were seeing coworkers naked, in sexually suggestive situations, for no good reason, you can bet that I’d be complaining to HR about hostile work environment.

          1. European*

            Really ? Just seeing people naked ? Accidentally and once, in this specific case ? That’s wild to me. I’ve seen two coworkers naked, once in a spa, the other one is a changing room at the gym. We talked about a newsletter that needed to get sent the same afternoon. Nobody cared.

            Hostile work environmnent should really be about protecting people from discrimination, not about pretending that we don’t have bodies and sexual lives.

              1. European*

                Oh, thanks for reminding me of that. I cannot believe that I used my personal cultural frame of reference, instead of using a US-centric view, which is obviously the only one worth anything.

                1. Caro*

                  You are being deliberately disingenous. It is 100000% not the same accidentally getting out of the shower and your partner’s colleagues all getting an eyeful, and then politely pretending it did not happen or joking about it, according to relationship, and witnessing the fiancee of the boss, naked, in a hotel room, while on a call with their boss.

                  That’s gross and completely out of bounds. I am neither American, nor European. It’s horrible, and humiliating FOR JOE most likely, who is, let us not forget, about to make a life time commitment to someone who’s schtupping one of their mutual colleagues, probably in front of the people who saw Kate’s private parts on camera. That’s icky. Don’t care how many naked people we see at gym in the changing rooms.

                2. Insert Clever Name Here*

                  I was giving a similar reminder with regard to seeing naked coworkers (outside of work in situations where it was not only reasonable to be seeing other people naked but where you both opted into that) as you gave with regard to monogamous relationships.

            2. I should really pick a name*

              naked, in sexually suggestive situations

              You may have missed the bit after the comma

            3. Czhorat*

              Hostile work environment, so far as I know, has to be pervasive to the point a reasonable person would not find acceptable.

              Seeing someone once by accident on a Zoom call would not meet the standard. If a coworker routinely exposed you to nudity and the company did nothing to stop it then it WOULD likely be hostile workplace harassment.

              If nobody reports it to management it would be hard to make a case against the company.

              1. Ess Ess*

                It can be a single time, if considered egregious. A coworker seen on camera undressed with the boss would fall into that.

            4. Jam on Toast*

              Nudity isn’t intrinsically hostile, as you point out, but context matters. And in this case, LW witnessed a semi-naked coworker sneaking from their manager’s hotel room during an online work meeting. It’s not a spa or a changeroom where a certain degree of polite fiction can be maintained, and the nudity is expected and both participants are equally undressed.

            5. bamcheeks*

              Going into a sauna or a spa and seeing people naked is consensual nakedness. Seeing people naked in the course of an office job is non-consensual.

              Also European. B

            6. sparkle emoji*

              Well, this wasn’t in a spa or gym, it was in a work meeting. Those examples aren’t exactly relevant here.

            7. Productivity Pigeon*

              I’m as European as they come and I would NOT want to see a coworker naked, especially in the sexual context of this letter.

              I MIGHT be okay with seeing a female coworker naked in a changing room or a sauna but that’s it, really.

            8. Kay*

              But being naked at the spa and gym are expected. Co-workers on a Zoom call should not be naked. You can’t compare these situations in the least bit.

            9. Boof*

              — in a spa is a totally different thing, presumably it’s something everyone signed up for and is expecting
              — same thing if you’re all changing together
              — getting sent “oops” or deliberate nudes, or puts them up in the work environment ( unless maybe you work in a museum and this is the statue of david or something similar ) or is being flirty or obvious sexual behavior at work, all inappropriate. And if you tell me that this is totally normal in X european country I’d really question how well sexism and sexual harassment is really handled there.

    2. spiriferida*

      There’s also a problem with a supervisor having a relationship with a report, though, which is the situation with Peter and Kate. Especially if it’s a relationship that they’re trying to keep secret, that opens the door for all kinds of mistreatment and/or favoritism.

    3. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      No, monogamy isn’t the only way, but even if your company doesn’t have a rule against an affair with the fiancee of someone you supervise, it’s a bad idea: Hi, the three of us are one happy together, and of course my girlfriend’s husband deserved that promotion. Or, do you ask your spouse not to break up with her boss because it might affect your bonus?

  18. doreen*

    I was in a similar but not quite the same situation. Fortunately for me, the only one I saw regularly was the cheater , who I laid into for putting me into that situation and he never did again. I don’t know what I would have done if I had seen all three all the time.

  19. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

    I’m on team “assume it isn’t monogamy and look the other way.” Even if it is cheating, it’s not your circus.

  20. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

    Regarding the wedding – it is a shame you have another commitment and won’t be able to attend.

    “I have another commitment” is always the reason you can’t attend a wedding. And you never provide details about what the other commitment is. Even (especially) when the commitment in question is staying home and avoiding the drama.

    (This is the same advice I gave my brother when he got an invitation to his ex-girlfriend’s wedding. He sent a card and otherwise stayed far away.)

  21. Jam on Toast*

    I think this is a situation where HR has to be looped in. Peter is a manager. This is role that requires (we hope!) moral judgement and ethical behaviour. While I find the idea of such a flagrant affair like this morally repugnant, I think the framing for the LW needs to be laser-focused on the team and not any pants-feels-induced nausea they feel personally.

    So think about what impact Peter’s actions have on the team’s morale, on his availability, on the distribution of work tasks, productivity etc. Can the LW identify patterns that they use to support their case? For instance, when Peter and Kate are off ‘business tripping’, is he not responding promptly to email messages or sign offs? Maybe it takes 24 hours longer….or he only responds after 6 increasingly urgent Slack messages etc. That’s a work impact. Is Kate being assigned all the high profile client tasks, when they used to be assigned by seniority or availability? That’s a work impact. Is Joe being removed from normal communication channels or meetings because Kate and Peter want to minimize their exposure or other team members are too embarrassed to meet with him? That’s a work impact. The affair is, of *course,* the cause of those distractions but in this case, you need to get allies onboard in a way that protects you from retaliation and keeps you above the fray when the sh*t hits the fan, which clearly is going to happen with these two sex-addled nincompoops involved.

    1. Great Frogs of Literature*

      I will say that I think that “I’m feeling squeamish about the amount of knowledge I have about my boss’s sexual interactions with my coworkers” is an impact on work/the team.

      2. Somehow I Manage*

        Agree 100%.

        That statement gets the ball rolling. As @Jam on Toast points out, there may be impact on / from Peter’s actions related to the rest of the team and his work. In addition to all the points above, is there some sort of financial fudging happening. Is it necessary for Kate to be on these trips? Is Kate expensing a separate room only to leave it empty? Obviously that’s not OP’s place to speculate about that, but by making the statement you’ve suggested, HR can start a full investigation.

      4. sparkle emoji*

        I think LW could also mention concern over Peter’s judgement because he’s choosing conduct his affairs(pun intended) in such an unprofessional way.

  22. Irish Teacher.*

    Honestly, I’d be very concerned about backlash against the LW if you does anything. Peter is her boss and well…I think the risk that he might have some resentment against the person who “told on him” is relatively high. Even if he consciously makes an effort not to blame the LW or even if he just feels guilty around her, it’s likely to create a tension in their relationship that might lead to Peter being less willing to tell her work related stuff, etc.

    This shouldn’t be the case, but in reality, people often do feel awkward or even angry at the person who “caught them out” so I think that is an issue to consider here.

    And I think this whole situation is a reminder of why affairs are bad and how much harm they can do. The LW isn’t even the person being cheated on or even a family member and yet she is being harmed by this

      1. Productivity Pigeon*

        I DO NOT agree with their behavior and I don’t think there are any happy outcomes here.

        But I’m not sure having an affair with a colleague who is engaged to another colleague should be a fireable offense.

        As far as I can understand, Joe isn’t Kate’s boss.

        1. Czhorat*

          It has been said that one shouldn’t poop where one eats (they don’t usually use the word poop).

          If he gets fired then he gets fired and it’s his own fault. If you’re determined to cheat on your spouse you should do it someplace where you aren’t going to jeopardize your and your affair partner’s jobs.

          1. jasmine*

            > If you’re determined to cheat on your spouse you should do it someplace where you aren’t going to jeopardize your and your affair partner’s jobs.

            This. Maybe cheating in general shouldn’t be a fireable offense (people outside the situation might not know what’s really going on), but cheating with a colleague at work? Nope. That is work’s business

        2. Kay*

          Having a college in a state of undress in the background of their work meetings SHOULD be a fireable offense.

      2. Aggretsuko*

        OP has better odds of being fired by Peter than a leader/manager getting canned. I wouldn’t count on it.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      There’s no way in hell I’d tell in this situation unless I was willing to lose my job over it. If your boss is having the affair? OH HECK YEAH I’d bet retaliation happens.

  23. SayHey*

    I say… stay out of it. Is this worth losing your job over or dealing with any related drama? Go to the therapist for venting and then stay mum and look for new. This place is dysfunctional at best and you really DON’T have a great manager–look how loose he is with discretion. Also, DO NOT go to this wedding.

    1. Ess Ess*

      If OP goes to HR, they cannot lose their job over this. That would be retaliation and is very very illegal.

      1. I should really pick a name*

        They absolutely can lose their job. It just means they have grounds to sue.

  24. Ashley Armbruster*

    Peter and Kate are scumbags, and not only are they being disrespectful to Joe, this is so rude and disrespectful to the entire office! I can’t imagine how much this affects morale for everyone who just wants to do their job. Shame on upper management for turning their heads.

    It will blow up one way or another.

  25. Not on board*

    This is a terrible situation. Even if Joe is aware and there is an open relationship, the lack of discretion on the part of Peter and Kate is awful. Also, that they are coworkers (possibly Peter is her boss) so this is very poor decision making.
    Either say nothing, or an anonymous email to either Joe or HR.
    I had a friend go through something similar – she was in HR, her longterm boyfriend was hired in a different location as an employee. He had sex with another woman AT WORK while they were still together. He got fired but she was excluded from knowing any details about why they fired him. So all she knew was that he was fired. They did break up, but she found out later that this happend and that all her friends and coworkers knew about it. She probably spent a couple of years feeling utterly humiliated.

  26. Wren_Song*

    I’m not in investigations, but I work on our HR team. We would definitely want to know. There are so many potential work issues here that we would definitely want it on our radar. HR can be the ones to look at the policy issues, the potential workflow issues, the fallout if things go wrong issues, the conflicts of interest, and if it turns out to be nothing, then that’s great. But we would still want to check it out to make sure of that.

  27. Lacey*

    Oh what a crummy spot to be in!

    I think the thing you have to remember is that this is not your responsibility.

    And while I would feel very differently about that if this were your family or friends. It’s not. It’s your coworkers and boss and the responsibility you have to them is different.

  28. Frankie Bergstein*

    Stiffen your spine and tell Joe. What would you want if you were in his shoes? Everyone around you to know that you were marrying into an s-show but nobody told you? The fallout for you from that would be worse.

    1. Bast*

      I would argue this greatly depends on how close LW is to Joe and Joe’s personality. If LW is a “say hi to Joe at the printer” type of close, it could turn really bad, really quickly, and bring more drama into the workplace centered whether fairly or unfairly on LW. LW may unfairly garner the reputation of a gossip/someone who stirs the pot. The risk of this is higher if they don’t really know Joe.

      If LW were really close with Joe outside of work — as in, they are friends and regularly hangout — then the burden to say something shifts a little higher, and I may advocate for saying something OUTSIDE of work. Either way, if LW is going to say something to Joe, I wouldn’t advocate for it to be at work. Even if Joe does not have a temper, receiving this type of news could result in a loud, dramatic outburst as he may understandably be upset.

      If I were in the same situation, I’m not really sure I’d want to hear about it from, or believe it from, Random Coworker I Hardly Know, but I may believe it from Bob Who I Get Drinks With Every Friday and Comes to My BBQs.

    2. Productivity Pigeon*

      I don’t think I agree. Peter is LW’s boss and telling Joe might jeopardize LW’s job. LW is allowed to put her own well-being first.

  29. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

    Woof – I inhaled sharply when I saw this title. This sucks for you, OP. I feel like this would change my opinion of my manager from “good manager” to “thought he was a good manager, but apparently he has spectacularly bad judgment”.

    Rather than what to do now, let’s think about long term for you, OP. You’re filled with guilt and anxiety, you’re seeking therapy, and yet you say you don’t want to leave this job. I don’t know if that’s sustainable. You’re a small enough team that you got a wedding invite. You not attending will be weird. Then you will still all be working together after the wedding with the giant unspoken secret everyone knows but Joe. How will people not treat Joe differently? Are they already treating him with kid gloves? Or maybe being distant to avoid saying something by mistake?

    Peter and Kate are already careless. You have all been unwillingly forced into maintaining a lie for them. I think this will come out eventually and then you’ll have a front row seat to a spectacular disaster. If you think it’s bad in the office now, just wait. I can’t see it ending well.

    I’m not saying quit now, but think through what it means for you to stay.

  30. Saturday*

    LW, since finding another job wouldn’t be an issue, I encourage you to at least look around at what else might be out there. I know you were comfortable there before all the drama started, but since this is affecting your physical and emotional health, it sounds like it would be worth it to see if there’s a place you’d be happier.

    1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Agreed. I’m wondering if there’s a little mental “but everything was so good before this” going on. Not quite accepting that it’s never going to be the job it was before.

    2. Bast*

      Drama can start at any office at any time, and LW can easily walk into another situation where there is some sort of drama going on without realizing it. It doesn’t have to be an affair — maybe LW fills a spot that Jane hoped to get, and now Jane is miffed that an outsider got her position. Maybe John and Bob have differing ideas on how to manage and lowkey pit employees against each other or just make things weird. This isn’t really that uncommon.

      LW is not even really directly in the line of fire here; I don’t think it seems worth quitting over someone else’s drama if they otherwise like the job.

      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        “Drama can start at any office at any time” – true, and it has started here. This is a very poor argument: it sucks here, but it *might* suck somewhere else, so you should just stay. It is highly unlikely it will be worse in another office.

        LW is directly affected. She is seeking therapy to manage this. It is always worth quitting when your mental health is on the line. But also! She indicated it would not be difficult to find another job. I see no downside in at least looking and the minimizing you’re doing is pretty weird.

        1. sparkle emoji*

          Yep. We’re balancing hypothetical future drama over known current drama. Anything is hypothetically possible but we don’t need to stay in miserable situations just because an alternative might be worse. It also might be better. Find out if it’s better.

        2. TigressInTech*

          I’d also suggest LW should consider whether Peter really is “a good manager”. It sounds like LW is viewing the affair as the only problem in an otherwise good workplace, which *may* be true, but seems unlikely. Peter’s judgement has lapsed multiple times, enough for the entire office (except Joe) to know Peter and Kate are having an affair.

          And also, the entire office knows they’re having an affair, the work trips are known to be cover for the affair, Kate was seen unclothed on the background of Peter’s work call, and nobody has gone to HR or slipped Joe an anonymous note? Either everyone in the office has a serious case of bystander syndrome/”not my problem”, or HR is doing nothing about it. Not necessarily the workplace I’d love to be in either way, from what I’m hearing.

    3. RVA Cat*

      True, but most office drama does not involve seeing your co-workers naked. The only way that Zoom could be more awkward is if Peter’s…..peter was onscreen.

  31. WeAreUnanimousInThat*

    As somebody who has been in Joe’s position? Take my word for it: tell him. Email him anonymously if you think that might be easiest, laying out all of the information you have, including the Zoom meeting dates. Also, anonymously email HR and let them know that the fact they are doing this may constitute sexual harassment (I honestly don’t know if it does).

    But tell him. Before the wedding. Like today.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Same, same.

      Geez, two letters in two days that are giving the PTSD shivers. It’s like universe is extracting a penalty for how much I enjoyed mortification week.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      This isn’t bad, they’ve been so indiscreet that it couldn’t really be tracked back to OP.

    3. Elbe*

      I understand if the LW doesn’t want to do this, but I would be so grateful if I were in Joe’s position and someone gave me this info. He can delete the email if he wants to, but at least it’s his call. If he doesn’t know, he can’t make decisions that are right for him. I don’t think that anyone should be forced to make major life decisions without all of the information that is relevant.

      Even if the LW decides not to tell Joe, I think that they should definitely take this to HR. Peter and Kate are made this a work issue a long time ago. What they are doing is completely inappropriate for an office setting.

    4. learnedthehardway*

      I think this is the way I would go – I’d write the letter, mention that the entire team saw this, and let the chips fall where they may. The one very good thing this situation has – above most anonymous letters – is that there were multiple witnesses at the same time. If Joe wants to confirm, he can ask any of his colleagues. If he asks the OP if she wrote the letter, she can plausibly deny, but still confirm she saw the situation on the video.

      1. Elbe*

        Yes, I think it’s a huge advantage that neither Joe nor Peter will be able to determine the source based on the information provided.

    5. Catherine UK*

      Agreed. If I was about to marry someone and people knew I was being cheated on, I would rather hear it from a coworker than end up finding out after the wedding!

  32. ReallyBadPerson*

    I think this absolutely is the LW’s business, if only for the reason that it is making them uncomfortable at work. I would raise the issue with HR, mentioning the unclad Kate on the work call. Then, let what happens happen. Either way, Joe is going to be humiliated, because affairs don’t stay hidden unless the partners are discreet, which these are not. That can’t be helped.

  33. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    OP, you cannot win here. All you can do here is whatever you need to do to protect yourself from the shrapnel if/when this drama bomb explodes.

    You do not need to attend the wedding. You can have a conflict.

    You are a thoughtful person, but you did not cause this and have been placed in the no-win situation by those who actually are responsible.

    It sucks for you. It sucks for Joe. But you do not need to save Joe here and there’s so many ways it could go wrong if you try. I’m sorry.

  34. Glad I'm Not In the Rat-Race Any More*

    Agreeing with those that say loop in HR, not any of the involved parties, because you all had to see naked-Kate while Zooming with Peter. Whether Kate was engaged to someone else or not at the time doesn’t enter into it (work-wise; ethically is another matter.) Just make VERY sure HR isn’t going to name-drop you when they confront the couple. Peter being your boss with the possibility of retaliation (and the impending legal problems you can bring them if he does) should keep them discreet, especially if you remind them of it, but it may not.

  35. viewpoints differ*

    From a very different direction…
    Weddings are EXPENSIVE. I would be pissed if everyone knew a potential reason why the marriage might fail immediately and didn’t say anything in advance. There is still time to recoup literal costs here that could assuage any bad outcomes (like needing to move out) when facts come to light. Not saying anything is like adding insult to injury from that perspective. I’m not a fan of anonymity, but for this… an anonymous tip to Joe to investigate this would let him know, or if he already knew and was OK with it, then relieve your feelings of obligation.

    1. Jane Anonsten*

      I was a bridesmaid in a wedding, and one of my children was in the wedding. Bridesmaid dress; child’s outfit; hair & makeup; PLANE TICKETS for child, me, and husband; rental car; hotel room.

      They got divorced about a year later, and a few years after that I found out that the bride had been actively cheating. And by actively cheating, I mean she had a profile on Ashley Madison and was serially hooking up with people after getting engaged and also immediately prior to and after the wedding (like the same week).

      I was SO PISSED.

    2. Antlers All the Way Down*

      Agreed. Also, divorces are far, far more expensive than breaking of an engagement. As someone who narrowly dodged a terrible marriage—while breaking up sucked in the moment, having to deal with courts, paperwork, legal fees, and disentangling finances would have been an order of magnitude worse.

    3. Humble Schoolmarm*

      The upcoming wedding is affecting how I feel about this too. There’s a built in deadline where, if it turns out that this is a relationship ending revelation (it might not be, I know) there are going to be a bunch of legal and lawyers fees looming if Joe doesn’t get this info in time. Not saying that OP needs to say something, but I understand why it’s even more complicated because of it.

    4. Lizard the Second*

      This is my overriding thought too. Not just weddings are expensive, but getting married entangles you and your spouse in a legal way, that can also be expensive and complicated to undo. It’s a hugely major life change.

  36. Bad Wolf*

    Personally, I’d say something to Kate. I’d tell her it’s none of my business and I’m staying out of it. But she and Peter are not being as subtle about their affair as they think they are. And Joe will find out about it one way or another. And if she denies it, I’d mention the zoom. Specifically say I am not the only one who saw her sneaking out of Peter’s hotel room naked. It’s her call how to proceed with that information.

    1. Despachito*

      I would not do that.

      She may not tell Joe but tell Peter, and he can make your life hell without achieving the goal you wanted (make Joe aware).

    2. DramaQ*

      I feel that a manager who is knocking boots with an employee during a “business: meeting who proceeds to turn on Zoom probably knew she was still there half naked. Even if it was an “accident” in that particular instance everyone knows their secret, the flaunt it openly it’s just now everyone saw her undressed.

      I would say nothing to either of them. They seem pretty confident they are untouchable. Peter can make the LWs life a living hell and even though companies say they have zero tolerance for retaliation we all have seen letters on here that demonstrate companies don’t practice what they preach.

      There is a massive power imbalance here not only with it being LW vs Pete the manager but Kate is VERY obviously favored by Pete. Kate and Pete hold all the cards.

      We can’t even say with confidence that Joe wouldn’t end up shooting the messenger because he can’t touch Pete but he can sure displace his anger on LW.

      LW has every right to protect her own interests here. Kate knows what she is doing is wrong and doesn’t care. It’s not the LWs job to play morality police.

      I WOULD contact HR about it because this is a conflict of interest even if Pete is not Kate’s direct manager. They may want to look into all these “Business” trips Kate has been taking with him too. Then there is the fact it’s gotten to where people have seen Kate undressed during a work meeting which is unacceptable. This wasn’t an “oops my camera was on when I was going to the bathroom” moment. They were having sex during a “business” trip. Everyone knows Kate is there because Pete is banging her. Everyone was already uncomfortable to begin with and now they’ve or at least Pete has escalated to not even caring if his employees get to witness actual physical proof of the affair. That is not okay.

  37. Silvercat*

    LW doesn’t have to be the one to loop Joe in. There has to be someone on the team or that otherwise knows who would love to tell Joe (or maybe already did). Talk to your co-workers about it.

  38. She of Many Hats*

    I would go to HR using the video meeting as context. “HR, this was seen on the X Team video meeting by many of those attending. Kate is engaged to employee Joe and works under/closely with Peter. I’m concerned how this behavior impacts the company and how it will impact X Team and Joe’s Team if it were to become widely known.”

    Hopefully HR will handle it appropriately and hold BOTH parties responsible, not just Kate as the female who was seen undressed. While Kate is undeniably rotten, unfortunately, it is often only the woman who is visibly punished in these types of situations.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Yes, this! They are making an attempt to keep their affair secret, but not doing a good job of it. The video is your ticket to handling this dilemma.

      1. AB*

        Anonymous typed letter on Joe’s desk. It’s not the best case scenario for anyone, but right now you’re so stressed you can’t eat. Say something or keep this feeling in your stomach for the rest of your life.

  39. WellRed*

    Lot of focus on telling Joe. How about telling Kate everyone saw her? Puts the burden on her.

    1. Bad Wolf*

      That’s my suggestion as well.
      The only factual thing here is Kate sneaking out naked out of Peter’s hotel room. Who’s to say Joe doesn’t already know about it? Maybe Joe, Kate, and Peter are in some kind of consensual throuple.

      1. Somehow I Manage*

        I’d say there’s more potential for this to backfire on OP if they approach Kate. Sure, maybe there’s some sort of everyone’s in the know consensual thing. But let’s say OP talks to Kate. That’s going to get to Peter. And there’s zero control over how Peter reacts to it.

        Talk to HR instead. Let them figure it out.

    3. Elsajeni*

      Well, the emphasis on telling Joe is based in the theory that he doesn’t know Kate is having an affair. Kate already knows she’s having an affair (unless we are really in soap-opera territory and it’s her evil twin with amnesia), so if you’re telling her anything, it’s “we all know you’re having an affair,” and I’m not sure what the goal of that is — do you want her to start hiding it better? Is knowing that other people know likely to change her behavior, or prompt her to come clean with Joe (again, assuming he doesn’t already know)?

  40. hodie-hi*

    If you think saying something about this will alleviate your discomfort, go right ahead. I like the approach Jam on Toast describes, as it seems the most professional and least personally confrontational.

    Decades ago, something very similar happened in a workplace of mine. Several (maybe ten?) colleagues were aware this was happening. We each took the opportunity of a sufficiently anonymized survey to report our individual observations and concerns, restricting them to the affect on the business and morale. Soon, a high-level manager from corporate visited to investigate. It was handled well and based on the business findings, Kate was fired, Peter was seriously demoted, and Joe divorced Kate. I think Joe may have taken solace in the fact that everyone respected and liked him as a colleague since he stuck around a while.

    If the method described by Jam on Toast is not possible in your organization and you want to bring this to a head for your own health and peace of mind, I like the approach Silver Robin describes. Even better if you can get at least a few colleagues on board to participate in the meeting where Kate is confronted with the knowledge that her colleagues are aware of her behavior and won’t tolerate being forced to observe it. It doesn’t need to be a dogpile, but there will be comfort in numbers on your side and maybe someone else will volunteer to be the main spokesperson.

    If Joe reveals he’s known about this affair and he’s fine with it, Kate and Peter still should be told to make sure the office never knows about their sex life again.

    This situation is awful, but I think Joe has nothing to be humiliated about. It’s Kate and Peter who have been rolling in shit together, and they’re the ones who deserve to feel remorse and humiliation.

  41. Anonymous for this*

    I think there are actually two separate issues here: your attendance at the wedding and whether or not this is a work issue.

    If you have a personal moral objection to the union, then don’t attend the wedding. You’re a coworker, not a close friend or family member, and if you don’t have to attend if you don’t want to, which would be true even if there wasn’t all this other stuff complicating this wedding. Come up with a reason why you can’t go: have to help a family member with something that weekend / clean your andirons / take your cockatoo on its annual trip to the rainforest, etc.

    But your personal feelings about cheating don’t really impact whether or not something untoward is happening at work. Certainly, that zoom call sounds deeply unprofessional! But it doesn’t sound like Peter is sleeping with a subordinate, so unless Kate is also on your team and getting preferential treatment, I’m not sure there’s much standing to do anything here work-wise.

    Sorry you’re trapped in the middle of this!

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      Agree with the wedding aspect. But something very unprofessional is happening at work. Peter’s team members got a view into his personal relationship and it happens to be with a colleague…subordinate or no. The OP is having a very negative reaction to this, and it is impacting her ability to work and her health. That’s a big deal. If HR doesn’t want to take it on, then that can be that. But given the reaction OP is having, I’d say it is worth a report.

  42. Gilgongo*

    If it were me, I’d leave an anonymous note. That would alleviate my guilt of not saying anything but also not my job at risk by getting involved in any other way.

  43. Another Kristin*

    Ahhh this sucks so much. I would probably make an excuse and decline the wedding invite but say nothing about the cheating. Though honestly, if they’re that bad at hiding it, Joe is going to find out sooner or later. Or maybe he knows already and is OK with it/has decided to ignore it/is in denial.

    This may be cowardly of me, but I personally would only tell someone their partner was cheating if I were their extremely close friend or family member. It is just so easy for this kind of thing to blow up in your face, I would only risk it for someone who was very important to me. I also don’t think I’d appreciate hearing about a partner’s infidelity from a random coworker, though on the other hand, it does really hurt to be cheated on then find out that it was common knowledge among your peers. IDK. Go with your gut, OP.

  44. LuckySophia*

    From a very practical standpoint, the primary question is not “Whether to tell” or “Whom to tell.” The primary question is: How much does the Letter Writer value her job?

    Setting in motion any “telling”… is likely to cascade into a mess that will have a bad, long-term impact on the job that LW currently wants to stay in.
    — If Peter gets fired, will his replacement be a good boss or a terrible one?
    — If Peter is disciplined but not fired, he will likely feel all his reports and all his colleagues can no longer be trusted…because clearly, one of them “ratted him out”.
    — If Peter finds out LW was involved….how could they ever maintain a positive working relationship?
    — If Kate learns of LWs involvement, she will undoubtedly feel (in a misguided way) that LW is “responsible” for any consequences Kate suffered as a result.
    — If Joe learns of LW’s involvement, he may be grateful, or he may be in “shoot the messenger” mode ever after.
    — Other co-workers’ opinions about LW “telling” will likely be divided, with some approving and others very disapproving.

    If LW’s most important goal is to keep her current job, without triggering additional career and interpersonal drama, I think she needs to say nothing.

    1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      However, you haven’t made a list of all the negative possible outcomes for staying silent. There’s a lot of bad scenarios there, too. If she is going to make a pro/con list, it’s got to be thorough.

    2. Hyaline*

      The problem, though, is that many of these consequences could churn up whether LW tells, stays silent, or hires a singing telegram to inform Joe–this situation will likely go utterly nuclear at some point, and some or all of the parties involved will probably be fired or reassigned or will quit. So there’s no use factoring anything about that into a decision to tell or not–if LW values and wants to keep her current job, she should keep doing that job well but accept that a lot of things in life are just outside our control (like your cheating boss getting fired and replaced by a far worse boss or your colleagues turning on each other over the soap opera unfolding in their midst).

      Honestly, I’d say separate work from ethics here and if you truly feel the ethical thing to do is to tell Joe, do it and accept the fallout. If you feel the ethical thing to do is stay out of it, same thing. That’s the price of following your ethics in an imperfect world. Most of the fallout is eventually going to happen anyway because these two doofuses seem to be completely incapable of discretion.

  45. Angie S.*

    I cannot help but bringing up how RBC (one of the biggest bank in Canada) fired its CFO a few months ago after finding out that she was having an affair with one of her direct reports. The rumour said that the ex-CFO was supposedly happy married.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’m not sure of the relevance here — bosses shouldn’t sleep with their direct reports, so this seems like a pretty straightforward result here. In this letter, Peter doesn’t seem to be Kate’s boss, unless the LW left out a really important piece of info in their letter.

      1. Awkwardness*

        It is not completely clear to me.

        If Joe is on a different team, I still have some hopes that colleagues closer to him, who might have been on the call too, did give him a hint or two.

          1. Awkwardness*

            Haha, and I was referring to your second sentence if one was a boss of the other (or which team Kate belongs to).

  46. I should really pick a name*

    Fortunately, Joe wasn’t in the meeting (different team)

    I’d say unfortunately. If Joe saw it, this would have gotten sorted out.

  47. bertha*

    Let it be as far as telling Joe. But tell HR that in a professional meeting, you had to see a naked coworker creeping in the back of the screen of another coworker and make them address that.

  48. 8doggies*

    In that moment if I saw Kate naked in the background, I can guarantee that my shock would have been vocal.

    “Oh my god, why is Kate naked in your room?” And damn the consequences, because if the cheaters don’t care enough to hide their affair, why should I (and the others on that call) pretend to have not seen?

    Pretending that no one should believe their lying eyes does no one any good.

  49. Kai*

    No, Pete is not a good guy nor a good manager.
    In fact, he sucks.
    LW, please understand that your boss will only have your back if it benefits him.
    Look how he’s treating Joe. He will do that to anyone who has anything he wants.
    Oh, Kate is guilty too, make no mistake.
    Write them both off.

    As for Joe. I’d write an anonymous note, which is just about the only time I’d advise this.

  50. Just a girl*

    I would say, if you feel you need to tell him, create a fake email and send something anonymously through a different device on a different network. Don’t get your professional hands dirty, but if this is something you truly can’t ignore tell the fiance in a way that he won’t know it was you. Obviously the fiance might not believe an anonymous email but it might at the very least raise his red flags if it’s one of those things where he might feel it in the back of his mind but not want to admit it to himself.

  51. Tired Assistant*

    The assumption seems to be that Kate didn’t know she was seen – is that what happened OP? Is Kate oblivious to the fact everyone on that meeting saw her? It just seems so unlikely that Peter didn’t say – hey, I’m going to start this work Zoom now – maybe you should get dressed.

    Any chance she did it on purpose? Maybe she’s just a chicken and is too afraid to back out of her wedding and is hoping someone else can do her dirty work of telling Joe?

  52. Snooks*

    If and only if Kate reports to Peter, snail mail an anonymous letter to HR, otherwise stay out of it. If you know that Joe will not have lots of family and friends at the wedding, consider going so he will have someone in his corner if/when things blow up.

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      The reporting structure doesn’t matter. Peter opened up a video chat with a colleague naked in the background. His team members were exposed (sorry…couldn’t think of a different word) to personal, private goings on. If this wasn’t a colleague of anyone’s, I’d probably laugh it off. But this is a complaint made for HR.

  53. BBB*

    why would you just pass up the opportunity to call them Angela, Andy and Dwight in your letter? lmao
    but for real, I have no advice. this situation sucks and you shouldn’t be stuck in the middle of it

  54. Ellis Bell*

    OP I know it’s tempting to believe there are no other problems at your job, other than this one thing and therefore it’s ignorable.. I really don’t buy that this is the only problem with your manager’s judgement. I think this may just be the one flag, but it’s a particularly red one about his duty to others, and consideration for people in the workplace. Unless you feel you can resolve the issue of being exposed to sex in the workplace with HR (I don’t know why, but I’m getting small business/no HR vibes here) then your mental health is going to continue to be affected. As for telling Joe, I don’t think that’s reasonable when your livelihood would be the cost (and I’m a former betrayed spouse who reveals affairs whenever I can safely). I also know from experience that anonymous tip offs don’t work. I would either let HR deal with it, keeping you out of it, and protecting you or I would leave a job where you can be exposed to this stuff at work without recourse. If you do leave, tell Joe when you’re clear of the workplace.

  55. Parenthesis Guy*

    “But every time I see poor Joe around the office, the guilt consumes me. I am so anxious about this, that my appetite has reduced and my husband and I have seriously started looking for a therapist for me to help me deal.”

    Your conscience won’t stop bothering you until and unless you tell Joe. And if it’s bad now, how do you think you’ll feel when you see him after Joe and Kate get married? Your anxiety is going to be ten times worse. Your real options are to say something to Joe or leave your job.

    You can always get a new job, but you’ll never forgive yourself if you don’t say something here.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think there are options between “tell Joe” and “quit your job,” and those options are probably going to revolve around learning how to process other people’s actions in a healthy way when you don’t agree with the choices they’re making or the people who are impacted by it directly. The therapist can definitely help with that.

  56. Better Now than After the Ceremony*

    This is what anonymous emails are for. If I were OP, I would set up a new email account and write an anonymous message to Joe. I would say I am a work colleague of his and Kate’s, and site enough evidence to prove that to be the case, and then I would baldly say “And I’m so very sorry to do this, but I think you need to know that Kate and Peter are having an affair.” And I would leave it at that. That’s just my take.

    1. And*

      That’s assuming he reads it. If I see an email from someone I don’t know, I delete without reading in case it’s a phishing attempt, or has malware attached.

  57. Person from the Resume*

    Here’s a problem that you can bring up to HR – your boss joined a meetings via video, and you all saw a naked woman sneak behind him. And that naked woman was a coworker of yours!!!

    This is a legit HR issue, both his impropriety of turning on video with a naked woman in the background but mostly the fact that now you know your boss is sleeping with a coworker.

    The fact that there’s probable cheating and the person being cheated on is another coworker is a personal issue and not a work one.

    But it does suck that reporting to HR probably means your boss finds out it was you who reported him; although, if there were multiple people in the meeting HR does not need to mention your name.

    * if the naked woman wasn’t your coworker you could probably let the issue drop as a zoom accident, but SHE IS so this is an HR issue.

  58. staying anon*

    Really torn on this one. Normally I would say it’s not your business. But I also think about my own husband, who was in a similar situation prior to meeting me. The woman he was going to marry was cheating and the entire friend group knew. No one told him. They got married, a big expensive wedding. Six months later, he found out, they separated, they got divorced. Another expensive thing. If he had known before the wedding, it would have saved him a lot of money and trouble.

      1. Bruce*

        I feel sorry for him not only to have been betrayed by his wife but also to have learned that his friends would let him drive a car off a cliff. It sounds like he has a better life now!

  59. RVA Cat*

    It says everything that I kept hearing Panic! At the Disco in my head this entire letter:
    “Well, I’ll look at it this way
    I mean, technically, our marriage is saved…”

  60. Space Cadet*

    I’m not so sure that Joe doesn’t suspect something is up. People often have an intuition about these things, but ignore it until the cognitive dissonance becomes too much to bear.
    Sadly, I know this from personal experience.

  62. Dawn*

    Just a question here – are you absolutely certain that it was Kate that you saw on that call? This was somebody who was:
    1. in the background
    2. of a webcam call (which are notoriously low-quality at times,)
    3. trying to stay out of sight, and
    4. naked

    And all I’m saying is that if there’s any room for doubt there – I’m sure that many of my coworkers would look much different nude, for example, than I’m used to seeing them – I think you can morally conclude that you shouldn’t blow this whole thing up over anything less than certainty.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      We’re supposed to take OPs at their word here. The OP works with this woman all the time; let’s trust that.

      1. Dawn*

        This isn’t “not taking the OP at their word,” this is “offering advice relevant to their situation.”

        We’re supposed to take writers at their word, but not to such ridiculous extremes where they stop receiving the advice that they asked for.

        That rule is more, “believe writers when they say their manager threw something,” not “never question whether or not a writer’s perspective on events is 100% complete and accurate”.

  63. H3llifIknow*

    I feel so bad for Joe. There is no way he isn’t going to end up hurting. If the OP goes to HR and they start an investigation and it comes out, he’s going to know that a BUNCH of his colleagues saw his naked fiancee on a Zoom with her boss and he’ll feel humiliated and likely angry that nobody told him directly. If someone does tell him, anonymously or otherwise, same thing. “Everybody knew and was talking about it behind my back for weeks and NOBODY told ME?” Ugh what a mess. Kate’s …. a horrible person. Peter too, but the reality is that it is Kate who owes Joe fidelity, not Peter. Sigh.

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      Indeed. I hope that if HR does what they’re supposed to do correctly and Joe is informed, people can rally around him. And I hope that he can come to understand why people were having such a difficult time with notifying him or not. Everyone loses in this situation.

  64. Hyaline*

    “Fortunately, Joe wasn’t in the meeting (different team).“

    More like “unfortunately” because that would have solved the “tell or not” dilemma! These two are so careless that Joe is bound to discover this on his own eventually, yikes.

    1. Chriama*

      I get that people don’t like anonymous messages, but all I can think about is that if OP has gotten a screenshot of Kate in the background she could have sent an anonymous email with proof – though I guess depending on who else was in the meeting it wouldn’t have been anonymous enough.

  65. Spreadsheet Queen*

    One additional thing is that you may want to check your security policies. In my industry, this would absolutely be something that should be reported to the Facility Security Officer. This is the kind of thing that puts the two having an affair at risk of blackmail. It’s the kind of thing that could precede a workplace violence incident (not saying Joe would be violent, but some people in that situation COULD be upon finding out about an affair). It’s definitely a security issue with all these people in the workplace.

  66. WalzingAllNight*

    Could this be taken to HR for the naked person on camera regardless of the affair context? That seems disturbing enough – my company has an ethics hotline where we can remain anonymous & things are investigated (though I know not all companies do).

    It seems bizarre that they would be behaving this way and oblivious to the possibility that coworkers might find out / not know… but that might snap them into reality and relieve the OP from guilt.

  67. ENFP in Texas*

    If Kate is in Pete’s chain of command, report it to HR and let them sort it out. That’s likely a violation of internal ethics policies.

    Outside of that, unless you are good friends with Joe, it is not your duck pond and they are not your ducks.

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      If she’s in his chain of command, obviously that’s even worse. But I don’t think it mattes really. Logging on to a work meeting and seeing a coworker naked in the background on your boss’s computer is enough to make a report to HR.

      1. Hyaline*

        Agreed. Even if cheating wasn’t involved. This seems like a time, too, when HR could value the report for “pattern of behavior” stuff–I realize this isn’t likely the case here, but when it comes to sexual harassment, a single incident could be an ooops, but multiple incidents is a pattern. If someone accidentally shows up naked in a conference call, well, it’s an awkward, embarrassing situation…but if the same person does it again a month later, and also “accidentally” sends a nude photo…and maybe also makes sexual comments…that’s different. And the only way to identify a pattern is to identify the isolated incidents that turn out not to be isolated. Again, I get that this isn’t really the issue here, but it does explain another reason for in-good-faith reporting to HR.

        1. Somehow I Manage*

          And add to this, are there financial aspects of this that the company needs to think about. Does Kate have to be on these trips, or is she being invited just for the extracurricular activity? Is she supposed to be on the trip and expensing her room, but not actually using it?

  68. Somehow I Manage*

    I had a colleague tell me once about some non-sexual incidents they’d witnessed from another colleague. Their approach was that they weren’t going to directly report the misbehavior, but if asked, they also wouldn’t lie. I say this to say, I wouldn’t advocate for telling Joe directly. You don’t know everything, just what you saw. If he asks you if you saw Kate naked in the background in the meeting with Peter, you can say yes.

    I’d definitely advocate for a report to HR, though. You do know what you saw. You and others saw it. It is impacting your work and your health, OP. As was said upthread (and I paraphrase), “I’m very uncomfortable with what I saw and what I now have intimate knowledge of related to my own manager’s relationship with a colleague.” Let them do their work. I’d also strongly suggest the phrase, “I’m concerned about any type of retaliation from Peter if he finds out I’ve brought this to your attention.” Given that others were on the video call with you, it won’t be perfectly obvious. But they need to ensure that he’s not retaliating in any way against you or anyone else who saw what they saw.

    OP, I hate that you’re feeling guilty about this. I’m glad you’re going to talk to someone about this, and I hope they can help you feel better about this situation. You’re an unwilling witness to something that is happening, and you have no control over the actions of those who are actually in the wrong here. Please remember that. And given that you’re already feeling as bad as you are, I’d find any sort of other thing to do on the wedding date. Do something for you. Hopefully HR can do their work and there isn’t a wedding, but you don’t owe anyone your presence at their wedding. And that’s doubly true in a situation like this.

  69. Lauren*

    I’d be looking for a new job. The manager is not a good manager and has terrible judgment in having a relationship like this with someone he works with, let alone it being an affair with the other partner also working there. This is beyond dysfunctional.

    If OP is looking into therapy over this and being this affected, why on earth do they think things are fine to stay working there?

  70. PotsPansTeapots*

    Report what you’ve seen that affects your and your teams’ work to HR, find an unmoveable conflict with the wedding, start putting feelers out for a new job, and otherwise STAY OUT OF IT. There will be no clean solution to this situation and the more you involve yourself, the more muck you’ll be hit with.

    1. PotsPansTeapots*

      I’ll add that therapy is a good choice, as is planning a vent session with a trusted non-work friend. You do need a way to process your feelings that doesn’t involve getting more involved.

  71. Raine*

    This is one of the rare times I regret reading the comments section.

    Ultimately, you don’t know if this is cheating if you haven’t talked to Kate and Joe. I’d say the only actionable thing is the naked sneaking, and that should get reported to HR. *Why the sneaking happened is not your business*, only that it happened.

    If my coworkers had taken it upon themselves to tell my spouse I was cheating every time I kissed one of my other partners when they dropped me off at work, I would be livid. Could Kate be cheating? Of course! But you don’t know that. And the amount of heavy-handed judgment in this comments section is disappointing to this poly person.

    1. Mid*

      Interestingly, I have a different opinion as someone who is also polyam! I think someone should tell Joe. I think it should be one time, it should be discreet, and it shouldn’t be the topic of gossip and rumors, but I think it’s right to tell Joe. If they are non-monogamous, cool, no harm no foul. But if they aren’t, a group of people who *know all involved parties* are helping hide essential information from one party. I think it would be different if Joe wasn’t also their coworker, and therefore he was a total stranger to everyone.

      But, I’m also pretty open about being polyam and I don’t fear the social repercussions of being polyam, so that could also be coloring my perspective on this.

    2. Berin*

      If Kate isn’t cheating, telling Joe isn’t a big deal – all he has to do is say ‘thank you for letting me know’ and leave it at that. If Kate is cheating, Joe can then decide what he wants to do with that information.

      The judgement in this comment section seems to be based on the assumption that Kate and Joe are not poly, and because Kate and Peter are being remarkably indiscreet. If Joe wasn’t in the picture, Kate and Peter’s actions would still be inappropriate for the workplace, as they are (demonstrably!) using work trips to liaise. It’s not the same as you kissing a partner goodbye – that’s happening out of work time, and doesn’t have any effect on your job or workplace dynamic. This differs dramatically from that.

      OP, if you’re still reading all these comments, tell HR about the naked video call. I would also tell Joe, mainly because I don’t think I could sleep at night if I didn’t, but I understand that that’s a deeply personal decision. I’m sorry you’re in this situation.

    3. Daria grace*

      Even if this is a fully consensual poly set up, having an intimate relationship with someone in your work chain of command is still wildly problematic

  72. CubeFarmer*

    Nope, nope, nope. I’d want to be far, far, far away from this.

    We had a colleague who was pretty clearly cheating on his wife with another colleague (who may or may not have been in a relationship.) None of us knew the wife, so not a similar situation, but I did not feel compelled in any way to seek out his wife and let her know.

  73. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    I’m going to get hate for this but – back in the very distant past I had an affair with my then boss who was married with kids (I was single at the time) and boy did we think we were clever at keeping it under the radar.

    But the more you get away with, the more overt your shenanigans become. They absolutely will get to the point where it becomes far too obvious to hide from her fiancé and the best advice I can give is claim you’ve got something else (family emergency or whatever) the day of the wedding and otherwise keep your head low.

    Anonymous notes won’t work, and people engaged in affairs can be very manipulative so accusations will probably be waved off with a totally plausible excuse.

    She’s heading for the ground at warp speed. Best to be in a different parsec when it all goes boom.

  74. Manchmal*

    There are enough plausible scenarios in which Joe knows about that I wouldn’t touch this thing with a ten-foot pole. OP, this is so not your responsibility or business. Why would you risk blowing up your career, your job, your good relationship with your manger — over things that are straight up not your business? I understand that you were particularly confronted by it on the zoom call. But still. There is no benefit for you here, and only a lot of downside. Could this information benefit Joe? Maybe yes, maybe no. (Maybe he goes nuts and does something terrible! It’s happened.) But you have no way of knowing the outcome, and you are 100% not obligated to put yourself at risk when the benefit accrues possibly only to someone else. Decline the wedding invitation and be done with it.

    1. Elbe*

      Yeah, this is painfully bad. Cheating is bad enough, but this seems particularly cruel. Engaging in this type of behavior while convincing him to make a major life commitment AND while involving his career and coworkers is just brutal.

  76. Colorado*

    So no one said anything to Kate or Peter after the Zoom call? Not even a gasp on the call? Everyone is pretending it didn’t happen? That seems odd Peter wasn’t called out then or immediately after with a “hey – you should know we saw this…” or the same message to Kate.

    2. Forrest Rhodes*

      If only everyone at the meeting had called out, in unison, “Hi, Kate, lookin’ good!”

    3. DramaQ*

      I’d be in shock and looking for something anything to stab my eyeballs out with.

      This is is so out of the realm of normal that I can understand why people are at a loss or choose to do nothing about it.

      Honestly even with your average ethical violations people struggle due to power imbalance to report it.

      Who wants to be the person to tell the manager that hey we saw your lover named when you’re supposed to be on a business trip?

      nah this is a situation for an anonymous ethics holiness or go straight to HR. That way you have protection against retaliation from any of the parties involved.

      Or nope out of it. At the end of they day besides being able to claim the moral high ground there isn’t a lot to gain. There is a hell of a lot to lose though because you’re assuming these people will be properly ashamed and won’t retaliate by making you go away instead.

      Pete and Kate are playing stupid games. Even if it’s an open relationship eventually the “business trips” are going to get questioned or one of them will flash the wrong person in a Zoom meeting who has power to fire them both on the spot.

  77. YKINMK*

    I would address it with Peter.
    As he seems to be the highest in command, he has the most responsibility for landing this plane without crashing and burning.
    “You and Kate are not as sly as you think you are. Too many of us know and it’s affecting work.”

    He can end it with Kate, and nothing ever happens.
    And also… gonna throw this out there…. maybe Joe knows and they have an arrangement that the office isn’t privy to. You can’t assume he does or does not consent to Peter/Kate. But you *can* confidently say that it’s become a distraction at work.

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      If I had to pick one of the three parties to talk to, I think it would be Peter. It sounds like there’s a good working relationship there, and giving him a heads up without judgement, which is very important in order to manage his reaction, would be easiest and best. I don’t think I’d advise that because I lean toward going to HR. But if OP felt like addressing it, something like “Hey, we saw Kate naked in the background when you jumped onto that meeting on (date). Whatever you do behind closed doors is your businesses. But we all saw it, and I wanted to let you know because it is impacting those who saw it.”

      Then he can land the plane however he sees best.

    2. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Ooooohhhh nonononono! This is like the mystery where everything was going fine until the heroine tells the villain that she knows they’re the murder and our plucky heroine nearly gets herself killed. (Seriously, plucky heroines, once you figure out that Peter poisoned aunt Jane with arsenic in her tea and framed Hercule, call the cops, don’t tell Peter).

      Peter is the only one of the three who has power over OP. Certainly, Kate and Joe can give the OP the cold shoulder, or any of the other 100s of little digs between peers that we’ve seen on this site, but they don’t control OP’s salary or work life like Peter does. The stakes are high for Peter too, remember. He could be fired or demoted (and he should be, to be honest) because of the naked zoom and possible misuse of time or funds with the “work trips”. Even if there’s some agreement between Peter, Kate and Joe, he could get in big trouble for the last two. There is no way I would 100% trust a boss to take this in a “dump Kate and never speak of it again” way and not a “got to get rid of OP before she tells someone” way.

      1. Awkwardness*

        I agree. This would be LW telling her boss that they know something on him.
        It would not matter others saw it too – LW would be the only one daring to confront Peter, thus making then the biggest threat.
        A peer might pull this off, but not an employee.

  79. Grumpy New Englander*

    Echoing to mention it to HR and stay out of it as others have. If you do want to do something, and that’s a BIG ask, I would go to Peter and make it very, very clear that you did not consent to be party to any of this (yes he made you an your coworkers a part of this by doing it) and you don’t want to see or hear any more of it. If he really is a good boss, framing it as you don’t want drama and distractions at work should be enough. Or if you really want to drive the point across you could say “huh, didn’t think you were a s**t where you eat guy because you’re cool, but it aint so cool to bring us into to exhibitionist cheating f****h.” That would probably fix it, but depending on Peter’s sense of pride you not having a job anymore.

    For all that is good though, stay out of Kate and Joe’s thing, I hear the other commenters, I do. But it’s not your business, but Peter involving you in it is your business. That’s where you have ground to say something.

  80. Productivity Pigeon*

    Oh, there are no good outcomes here. How difficult. I’m sorry you’ve been dragged into this, LW.

    (A related story. I can’t recommend anyone to do the same but my parents actually met when my mom was hired as my Dad’s, the CEO’s, secretary. And… His then wife also worked in that office. And had actually been his secretary as well.

    I genuinely don’t know if my parents… ehm, consummated their affair before the divorce. I know Dad was planning to divorce his wife regardless but I don’t know the specifics and I frankly don’t want to know.
    It was apparently quite a scandal at the time.

    For what it’s worth, my parents have been happily married for over 40 years despite the very morally complex beginning.)

    1. Bruce*

      I’m glad your parents have worked out so well together. One of my former CEOs married his former secretary, though I believe he was divorced before they became involved. From what I remember of them they really were soul mates (in a work-aholic, bossy kind of way :-) )

  81. Pyjamas*

    Crazy idea:

    Talk to Peter and tell him that in your opinion —here you shrug—what he and Kate does is their business but everyone’s talking about seeing Kate on the Zoom call. And you’re concerned about the effect on company morale

    Meanwhile polish your cv. Your boss is an asshole. You think he won’t screw you over?

    2. Kay*

      I question whether “Your boss is an asshole and will screw you over, antagonize him” is good advice for the OP.

  82. Youngten*

    I’m so sorry you’re in this terrible situation. I won’t advise you on whether you should tell him or not, that’s something you need to weigh for yourself. However, is Peter and his character really the type of manager you want to work for? He’s so careless that people outside the company probably know. I know you love your job, but do you really want to be linked with someone whom you know for a fact acts this way? We like to compartmentalize people but people are who they are wherever they are! You’ve only seen him cheat in one area of his life, but cheaters seldom only cheat in only one area. Just my two cents. I wish you the best and would love an update

  83. JPalmer*

    OP: I am sorry you are in such a miserable situation.

    1. By keeping the secret, you feel guilty because you are being complicit. You are allowing this to exist by not distancing yourself or taking even minor steps to resolve the situation. Cheating is a form of emotional abuse, where the receiving party doesn’t recognize they are being emotionally abused, lied to, told one thing and then another acted upon. You feel bad because you know this abuse is present and the pressure of the situation is forcing you to keep the secret and further the pain and eventual humiliation. I don’t agree with Allison on the ‘it is okay to do nothing”, that is being complicit with shitty behavior, and morally I couldn’t stomach that in the long run. It’d eat and gnaw at me constantly.

    2. This is EXACTLY what HR is for. Hoping you work at a bigger company where they can come down hard and fix this situation.

    3. Peter is not a good person. Good people don’t cheat. He is taking advantage of someone else’s trust (as well as his workplace’s resources) and using those for his own personal advantage at the cost of others.
    He also is having a hidden relationship with a direct report (which creates a lot of conflicts of interest and we don’t know the context for that relationship.)
    He treats you well and ‘has your back’, but that can change just as quickly. Peter is probably a sleazeball that you haven’t seen the sleaze side of yet. I’d advocate thinking about what your options are WHEN this all implodes, because I doubt it’ll go away. Kate’s infidelity and Peter’s various immoral behaviors won’t stop overnight. Maybe throwing some resumes out is a good idea, or looking at transfers within the company.

    4. When you talk to HR, you want to align yourself as ‘part of the company’. HR is the immune system that wants to stamp out unhealthy things like this. You don’t want them to view you as part of the problem. The concern here is Peter’s use of business resources (like did work pay for Kate to be on one of those trips when she wasn’t needed so they could have affair time). Peter’s control over a direct report (maybe creating quid pro quo or pressure for Kate to initiate a relationship), Peter & Kate’s actions that negative affect the rest of the team (You, Joe when he finds out, your coworkers to help create the secret). Mentioning how the uncertainty and guilt creates a stressful and difficult work environment that is distracting from work getting done. Asking about transfers to different teams of HR with the “I love this company but I can’t handle this team” will send a bit of a message that you aren’t a problem, that Peter and Kate are the problem.

  84. Mid*

    I probably have a unique perspective on this one. I’m polyamorous, meaning I have multiple romantic partners, and so do my partners.

    One of my partners (we’ll call them John) is also dating their former coworker (we’ll call them Alex.) One of my partner’s coworkers, who I’m friendly with and run into socially sometimes, saw my partner and Alex together in a way that was clearly not platonic. The coworker reached out to me, saying they didn’t want to assume anything, but wanted to let me know they saw John and Alex together in a way that seemed not-professional or platonic, and they knew I was still with John, and wanted me to be informed. I explained I was fully aware of John and Alex’s relationship, but I also deeply appreciated their concern, and frankly bravery in telling me. Even though it was an incorrect understanding of the situation, it was still a kindness to tell me.

    I think it is *absolutely* the right thing to tell your coworker. You don’t have to make assumptions, and you should absolutely not participate in office gossip about this, but I actually think you have an ethical duty to inform your coworker what you know. And I think you should do it in person, and ideally outside of work hours, so they don’t have to deal with the emotions during work.

    1. Mid*

      Further: I think if you hear any rumor about someone that you think they don’t know, it’s a kindness to tell them. If everyone was talking about how they thought I was an alcoholic, or using ChatGPT for my work, I would hope someone would inform me so I could decide how to handle it. Take out the cheating part and consider if you would want to know if everyone thought something about you, regardless of the truth of the rumor.

    2. Somehow I Manage*

      This is a good and helpful response. And maybe it has changed my mind a bit. I was fully on board with only talking to HR, but I guess if this place is small enough and close enough that OP is invited to Joe and Kate’s wedding, talking to Joe wouldn’t be like talking to a stranger. And just the facts would be the best way, much like it was in your situation. “Hey I’m not going to assume anything and frankly whatever the outcome is is really none of my concern, but several of us saw Kate naked in the background when Peter joined a Zoom meeting on {date}, and I thought you should know.”

      By doing so, you have ethically addressed it. Joe doesn’t owe you an explanation, and frankly you may not even want to see his reaction. But you’re giving someone information that you have that they may not.

  85. warm smile in your voice*

    “I am so anxious about this, that my appetite has reduced and my husband and I have seriously started looking for a therapist for me to help me deal.”

    You’re not super close friends with anyone involved (as far as I can tell) but it’s tearing you up enough to affect you like this? Are you Pete or Kate? Because damn, WTF.

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      It has a lot of potential to blow up in everybody’s faces, including the LW’s. If she does tell, Peter could well retaliate against her or Kate and Peter could combine to make it look to Joe like she is lying (that would be a risk, given how many people know, but it’s not impossible). Peter could be fired and that would lead to a change of boss. Joe might refuse to believe her and “shoot the messenger.”

      On the other hand, if she doesn’t tell, she’s having to interact with Joe, feeling like she is lying to him and has to decide if she can attend the wedding and “celebrate his happiness,” knowing it is likely all based on a lie (yes, ENM is a possibility, but it’s probably unlikely from the entire scenario) and if he does find out from somebody else, he might well get angry with everybody and there could be a very unpleasant scene. And I suspect the LW would feel pretty guilty if the whole thing blew up in a way she could have prevented.

      Yes, this shouldn’t really involve the LW, but it does put her in a pretty awkward position and I can see why she would be stressed out about it.

  86. Despachito*

    OP, you say your whole team saw it – do you know how they feel about it? They may have the same dilemma as you.

  87. Lizzay*

    I am leaning towards team say nothing. I understand the impulse to tell Joe & the guilt from not, but, (you don’t mention being especially close to Joe, so assuming that) there is a good reason that Alison always drives home that your work colleagues are just that – work colleagues! It’s not a family, it’s not a friend group. Maybe reframing your thinking towards that will help alleviate your guilt. As others have pointed out ‘not your monkeys, not your circus’. Now, if you *were* friendly with Joe, and I mean, to the point of hanging out with him outside of work one on one level, I would consider telling him, but it doesn’t sound like that from what you’ve said (aside from the wedding invite, but that sounds like it was more of an ‘invite the whole class’ kind of invitation). Personally, I would go to the wedding just to see if anything dramatic happened, but it sounds like that might give you an ulcer! And if you’re seeing a therapist about it – distance, distance, distance. Be the ostrich.

    Will this eventually blow up on one or all of them? Most likely. Best case scenario, Joe finds out, dumps Amy & leaves the company. I can’t see him sticking around in any case, whether or not Amy and Peter are gone. Worst case scenario, well, you’ll have a hell of an update for us.

    1. Bruce*

      The worst case scenario could be very very bad indeed. Does Joe own any guns? I’m serious. If we are talking about the USA that is a real possibility, guns have been involved in more than one romantic break-up that I’ve been adjacent to (none of mine!!!)

      1. Raida*

        Honestly I don’t think that’s a good reason not to tell:

        I told and he got angry and hurt her!
        vs
        I didn’t tell and he found out later and hurt her! Gosh, I feel *so much better* distancing my guilt from her injuries! That… fixes everything? Is he *less angry* if it isn’t me that tells? If they are already married does that lower the chances of violence?

        Hell, if I was worried about that I’d tell *her* that the cat’s out of the bag, time to break up or come clean before he finds out and stews on it.

        1. Bruce*

          That is a fair point, though there are still good reasons for LW to be anonymous even if they are alerting the wandering woman. I really don’t know if her life will be in danger, but two direct contacts of mine have died during a romantic break up so I take the possibility seriously.

      2. jasmine*

        I’ve seen this same comment made a few times now, and its so extreme. Should people never find out about their partners’ affairs in case someone is violent? Are people just not allowed to break up anymore because dangerous people exist?

        Like going worst-case scenario isn’t a good reason to not do things

  88. Forrest Rhodes*

    Don’t know if this has been suggested, but:
    Does Kate have a friend—other than Peter—in the office?
    Would that person be the one to take Kate aside and tell her, quietly, that she was seen on the Zoom call? (resisting the urge to add “and the cat’s out of the bag”)
    Kate will become aware that a lot of people in the office now know what’s going on, and perhaps she’ll take some action?

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      I feel like Kate may be the worst of the three to approach with this. There is of course the opportunity for her to take the correct corrective action. But she may also tell Peter who could make life miserable for everyone who was on that meeting. Or she may be in a position to make life miserable for everyone herself, because gossip. I feel like the chance of explosion is higher with Kate than with Joe or even Peter, mostly because we don’t know where she fits in the hierarchy of the company and what power she has over others.

  89. Lassie Parker*

    As everyone has said, there is no happy solution here. What if you talked to Kate? Does she realize that people saw her naked sneak? Her behavior made you and others uncomfortable, angry, etc., and now everyone is involved in her private business. You will not tell Joe, but I think you could ask her to do so. At the least she needs to be more discreet. She made this mess, she needs to clean it up. Take care of yourself!

  90. AB*

    Anonymous typed letter on Joe’s desk. It’s not the best case scenario for anyone, but right now you’re so stressed you can’t eat. Say something or keep this feeling in your stomach for the rest of your life.

  91. Gustavo*

    You could always send an anonymous note? He may not take it seriously but the ball would be in his court, you’d have met your moral obligations (which to be clear is only what you feel is needed, there is argument that you have no obligation here too), without any ties to you.

  92. It’s Jen*

    Are there enough people in your office that if you send an anonymous letter it won’t be obvious who it’s from? That’s the only way I would do something in this situation. Go to a library out of town, use gloves (I’m paranoid) type a short, factual letter and print it, then mail from the post office. And then move on and skip the wedding.

  94. Come on, man*

    HR, Anonymous letter, burner email, gift basket. Ignore the people saying “none of your business”. The *right* thing is to tell him – I can imagine you and most of these people would *also* want that in Joe’s position.

    I totally get being afraid of it blowing up in your face if you directly tell, but there’s options that are anonymous that still get it across. Poor dude needs to know.

  95. QuinleyThorne*

    OP, a couple questions: Outside of the current goings-on, how do you feel about your employer overall? You mention finding another job wouldn’t be an issue, but that you are well compensated and comfortable there. Aside from the compensation, what specific comforts is your current employer providing that you feel you can’t get elsewhere?

    The reason I ask is this: regardless of whether you feel like you should tell HR or Joe about this affair, at the very least, you really need to step back consider what this situation says about your workplace. You mention that this is an “open secret”–does this mean that Kate’s manager knows? Or for that matter, that Joe’s manager knows? Other higher-ups, potentially? Do you want to be in a workplace where it’s an “open secret” that a manager is having an affair with a coworker who is engaged to another coworker? And no one has said anything?. Not even to HR as a work matter?

    1. jasmine*

      Yes, this is what I was thinking. OP is saying their workplace is great except for this, but this is so crazy that it makes me question the overall judgement of Peter, if nothing else.

  96. Maria*

    I worked with someone who was almost certainly cheating on me with another coworker.

    After things became more obvious/public, a different coworker came to me to apologize for not saying anything when she had her suspicions. I told her that she shouldn’t worry for even a minute. It wasn’t her responsibility and I didn’t hold anything against her.

    I felt strongly that the only person who “betrayed” me was my partner. Their actions were their own to make, and they were the one who was supposed to be “loyal” to me. The other people involved owed me nothing, so to speak.

    Maybe not everyone would have reacted that way, but I could certainly understand in that moment how difficult a position my bystander coworker was in. I felt bad for her, for being put in that spot by the selfish actions of others. I hope that is true for the LW.

  97. Raida*

    Option 1:
    “Joe. I need to tell you something, it’s making me incredibly anxious, and if there’s any way you can hide it came from me I’d appreciate that, because I’m really worried how this could blow back on me. But you need to know.
    Fiancee and Boss are having an affair. They’ve been caught before, on camera, they do it on work trips, obviously everyone is hoping you *just find out* and nobody needs to *be the one to tell you*.”
    You do not allow this dude to get legally and financially tied to the person actively betraying him. You let him recoup whatever money he can from the wedding event and move on. And you either find a new job or you don’t, before there’s potential blowback or due to actual blowback. Maybe it’s fine, maybe it’s not, you accept this and plan for it.

    Option 2:
    You say you can get a job somewhere else, but it’s comfortable here. Well then be honest with yourself and say “I value my day to day ease of work life far more than I value my morals when it comes to cheating. I like my boss as a boss more than I care about cheating. I value this job environment more than I value my morals in lying to a coworker who’s wedding I’m invited to.
    I will not endanger my current work environment and relationship with my boss for the sake of a coworker.”
    You accept this and move on.

    1. Anonymous For Now*

      Wow!

      You sound like you would have been one of the people who decided that boss and I were having an affair and spread gossip about it and how awful it was what with both of us being married and he an his wife having a baby and …

      No doubt you would have contacted his wife because of course that would have been the right thing to do in your mind.

      His wife probably would have been amused because we weren’t having an affair, my husband and I had been to dinner at their home, and none of this was any of my co-workers’ business.

      1. jasmine*

        There’s no indication that Raida jumps to conclusions. Their comment is based on the fact that we KNOW that Kate’s having an affair.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      I’d suggest reading up on situations where someone angered their boss/whistleblew and ended up losing not only their jobs, but their entire careers/ability to get another job. I met a whistleblower and she said, “I ruined my life by whistleblowing,” and calling this guy out on an affair is in that territory.

      If OP’s willing to get another job, THEN she can tell Joe safely, assuming she doesn’t plan on getting a reference from peter.

  98. Disappointing Aussie Office Gumby*

    Joe is the last person you should talk to.

    A therapist is the first person you should talk to. They’ll help you deal with the stress you’re experiencing from uncovering an unpleasant situation at work.

    If this were me, I’d be approaching HR with this: “During a team Zoom call with Peter on [date], I saw Kate in the background in a state of undress. I thought this highly inappropriate. We all saw it.” I wouldn’t mention if it’s the state of undress I found inappropriate or that Kate was in Peter’s room. Let a competent HR do their own investigation and draw their own conclusions.

    I’d advise against saying anything to any of the involved parties, but if you must, against good advice, it’d be Kate I’d approach. I’d come straight out that you saw her undressed in the background of Peter’s video and you consider that inappropriate. She’s the one who’s ruining several lives.

  99. Elizabeth West*

    I’m for just reporting it to HR. Joe’s probably not going to give much credence to an anonymous note.

    Kate was inappropriately naked in the background of a meeting with your boss. Those are the facts as far as you know them. Report that, which is about work. Then you can let it go. Whatever happens after that, happens. Joe is probably going to find out from this, if he doesn’t suspect already, but that’s not your fault. It’s the fault of the cheaters, who are being inappropriate at work.

  100. NurseThis*

    I had a close friend marry a guy who was known to a different friend from a different life of mine. The other friend had grown up with this guy and regaled me with stories about him being a bully, a pig and abusive to women. I tried to tell my friend but she married him anyway and had 2 babies in 2 years. Then the domestic violence began. She wasn’t allowed to talk on the phone. She got beat up routinely and divorced him. She spent 18 years being dragged to court over child support.

    Our friendship survived because I tried. She valued that in the end.

  101. Anonymous For Now*

    How would it be possible for everyone but Joe to know about these work trips? Where would he think his fiancee had gone? I mean, if Kate wasn’t in the office for a day or two some people might notice, but how could Joe not be aware of it?

    That’s why I’m wondering if Joe and Kate have an open relationship or maybe they have an agreement that they can sleep with other people until they are married?

    1. HonorBox*

      That might be the case. Sure. Or it could be that Joe’s been told that these are legitimate business trips. Hard to know without doing a ton of digging.

      That said, I think that because a number of people witnessed a coworker naked with their (the team’s, not Kate’s necessarily) boss, this is something that needs to be raised with HR.

  102. AnonForThis*

    Well, isn’t this so terribly topical for me right now. Recently had a coworker let me know that they had relations with another coworker on a business trip. I know both their spouses (neither at our company). Queue moral quandaries out the wazoo….

    I feel for you OP. There’s no good answer on how to proceed.

    1. nodandsmile*

      It’s been a month since the video call. A month ago would have been the time to bring it up if you thought Joe should know.

      Seems like you feel bad because you think you SHOULD tell Joe, but you actually don’t want to get involved.

      It is not your responsibility. Get therapy to help with the feelings, and don’t go to the wedding. Say nothing.

      With love and respect, it does sound like you want to do something so you don’t feel guilty anymore. That’s something therapy can help with. If you had no particular feelings about it, other than “Poor Joe, I must stop him making the biggest mistake of his life” my advice would be different. But you’re talking about how to deal with your feelings, so just therapy.

      I’m quite stunned that no-one, in the entire time this has been going on but particularly after naked Kate on Pete’s video call, has said anything to any of Kate, Pete, Joe or HR. In that context, it probably doesn’t help anyone for you to bring it up now.

      If (seems unlikely) Joe ever confronts you about it “I do not get involved in other people’s relationships. I’m so sorry that happened to you.”

    2. I should really pick a name*

      It’s kind of fascinating how people engaging in bad behaviour often tell others about it.

  103. LondonLady*

    Speaking as a survivor of my ex-spouse’s infidelity, I’d say please DON’T tell Joe. You can’t unring that bell. You don’t know the ins and outs of their relationship, and it might be that the one thing even more hurtful than the fact of being betrayed is that other people know about it. Work was my safe space when life outside was a hot mess precisely because folk didn’t know or didn’t appear to know: and even though they’d have been on my side, I didn’t want to be seen through that lens.

    What you could do is tell Kate that you saw her on the video call and she might want to avoid that in future. Whatever she’s up to is her business but doing it on camera makes it other people’s.

    Apart from that, relate to them as colleagues: be pleasant and professional, don’t burn bridges. And ready to support whoever might need a shoulder to cry on in future.

  104. TeratoMarty*

    Of all the posts on which I hope to see updates, this absolute telenovela is the star.

  105. Joe of All Trades*

    Someone has to tell Joe. Knowledge is power. It’s one thing if you, OP, found out randomly, but this is at work, this is in front of everybody, and everyone BUT Joe knows. Tell him. Carefully, maybe even anonymously. But tell him so he can make an informed decision.

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