my employee is rude to colleagues — but some of them are rude to her too

by Alison Green on August 14, 2024

A reader writes:

I started at a new company a few months ago and, in getting acquainted with other staff, several people mentioned that they find one of my reports, Linda, a little abrasive. Basically, there was a lot of coded talk that she can be difficult/rude. Since we have started working together, I do find that sometimes she phrases things in a way that I never would to a supervisor, but overall I think we work together very well and some other staff members have actually mentioned to me that Linda seems happier at work.

In the past two weeks, I received two complaints about Linda’s tone, and I also received an email her from her that felt overly aggressive considering the circumstances. I would like to discuss the issue with her in our next 1:1, but in preparation for that discussion I checked in with her two former supervisors, who are now the highest level staff at our company, and even though both of them have spoken to me quite a bit about “how Linda can be,” I learned she has never received feedback during her 15+ years here about this seemingly well-acknowledged issue among other staff.

The problem that I am having in considering how to phrase it is that both complaints about her tone have come from people who were ALSO rude to her and apparently that has not been discussed with them, either. One of those people is our HR director. Both complaints were sent to me via email, with the chains in question forwarded to me, and I feel that the other people were rude to Linda first, and she basically responded in-kind. Is that what I would have done? No, but if I had received similar emails outside of a work setting, I probably would have taken a similar tone to Linda’s. I did let the other supervisor know that I thought her report was also rude in the interaction, but I have no idea what came of that.

Everyone involved with this issue has been here at least as long as Linda. I want to do better than her previous supervisors, but this feels like a difficult message to present. I have already spoken with the CEO about other issues regarding the HR director, and to be honest he seems afraid of her, so I can’t exactly promise she will start being more cordial. I am wondering if I should ignore the other complaints for now and just focus on the email she sent me, but that doesn’t seem totally right either since I was clearly asked to speak to her about it by both the HR director and other supervisor.

The framing you want is: “You can’t talk to colleagues this way regardless of the provocation.”

But it’s essential to pair that with, “It’s not acceptable for anyone to talk to you this way, either. If that’s happening, please loop me in so I can address it. But the solution can’t be that you snap back at them.”

It sounds like you should also talk with Linda about the reputation she’s developed for being difficult and rude. No one has done her any favors in hiding from her! But here, too, it’s essential to pair it with an acknowledgement that, from what you’ve seen, others are part of the problem. And again, the message should be, “I don’t want our team speaking to people this way even if we’re provoked.”

First, though, make sure that Linda isn’t being held to different standards than others. “Abrasive” in particular is often leveled against women when men saying the exact same things don’t get characterized that way, and Black people can get characterized as “angry” when others saying the same things don’t. It sounds like you’ve seen plenty of evidence that Linda genuinely is off-base in a lot of her communications, and I’m going to assume for the rest of my answer that that’s the case — but keep an eye out for a more problematic dynamic and address it head-on if you do see it.

Assuming that the issues are legitimate ones, though, the fact that you’re coming in as a new player might make you better-positioned to address them. If you’d managed her for years and ignored the way she spoke to people that whole time, it would be harder to address it now. (You’d still need to! But it would be harder and she’d have the right to be irritated that you waited years to speak up.) As a new person without the history her previous managers apparently have with her, you might find it easier to say, “Hey, we can’t talk to people like this” — and also “I don’t want them talking to you this way either.” Plus, the fact that Linda seems to mesh better with you than with previous managers is likely to help; you sound like you might have built up some credibility and good will with her.

I’m glad you point out to that other manager that her employee had been rude in her dealings with Linda. Keep doing that. It’s possible that people have fallen into bad habits with Linda over the years — if she has a history of being difficult, they might start off interactions with her already on the defensive — but just as it’s not okay for Linda to respond to provocation rudely, it’s not okay for people to do it to her either. And for you to maintain credibility with Linda, she needs to see that you’re not holding her to a different standard than other people are held to, and that you’ll go to bat for her when she has a legitimate beef with how someone speaks to her.

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I’m going to ask that we take the LW at her word that there are genuine problems with the way Linda talks to colleagues. The possibility that there aren’t has been flagged as something for her to look at, and I don’t want the comment section filling up with assertions that there are probably no issues to address with Linda when the LW is better positioned than the rest of us to know. Thank you.

  2. bamcheeks*

    I had a slightly similar thing in a recent job, where there had grown up a culture of people sending emails that positioned everything as VERY URGENT and SOUNDING FRUSTRATED about WHY THING HADN’T ALREADY BEEN DONE. (Note: we groom llamas, we are not an emergency service.) I had one team member who was experiencing stress, and he talked about these emails as a specific trigger. When I saw the emails he was receiving, I was like, yeah, not OK.

    It was definitely a cultural thing rather than an individual thing, and I raised it that way. As it was 2021, I suggested it seemed to be something that had arisen during the pandemic when people weren’t seeing each other in person and everyone got a bit isolated and volatile, and it wasn’t anyone’s FAULT, just something we had to address.

    I got buy-in from other managers, and we all spoke to our teams about it generally and said it was something we were trying to change, and to pass emails on to us if they felt they were over the line. This also meant that when one of *our* team did it, we could address it as, “Look, we have talked about this, I realise it’s a habit that’s hard to break, but can I ask you to look at this again and see how it comes across?” I had at least one, “What? No it’s not– oh yeah, fair point.”

    It definitely helped that I could find examples from a few different people, and talked about it as a cultural thing that we needed everyone to work on. As far as I know, nobody felt singled out, but we could still address specific examples in the context of “play your part”.

    Anyway! This might not apply to your situation, but I thought it might be useful.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Sounds like you handled this really well! I’m glad your fellow managers all bought in and you were collectively able to be clear and consistent on this.

      And you can position it as a way of making the work environment less stressful for everyone.

    2. Sloanicota*

      I was thinking about the culture thing in the context of why people are being rude to Linda, too. If they’ve had bad past experiences with her, they may come “loaded for bear” when they need to talk to her,* or they may have limited/no grace at the first conversational bump and that’s why their emails to her are terse, which is causing her rude emails in response, etc etc. This is one of the few times I might say a whole-office communications training might be a good “reset” – especially if paired with a new accountability around professional communication where everybody (not just Linda) has to follow these “new” rules of being courteous in email.

      * One data point I would like: are these same people rude in other emails, or only to Linda?

      2. Paint N Drip*

        Totally agree the context needs to be considered. If we have a long-standing issue that hasn’t been addressed, I would guess at the very least some other employees are bringing bad feelings from previous interactions into their current interactions with Linda which is increasing the rudeness/frustration/miscommunication – if the culture has been to not address these issues, I will also posit that there are OTHER interpersonal things that are festering. I hope OP follows their gut and takes a look from the outside and gathers the full picture before pinning Linda as The Problem

      3. MissBaudelaire*

        Loooove your data point AND the fact that people may already be set for a fight when they communicate with her

    4. Hroethvitnir*

      I really appreciate this as a positive story. It can be so hard to reverse negative cultural changes, and managers that care and act to do so are deeply appreciated.

      1. bamcheeks*

        I think it really helped that we were moving back into a new office space hybrid after covid (everyone had been full-time in a different building before covid, and full-time at home for 18 months), plus we had several new managers in place, so there was definitely a sense that we were starting something new and there was an opportunity to re-set relationships and how people communicated.

        And there was unfortunately a LOT of other culture problems that me and my main allies didn’t manage to change, which is why I eventually left. But on this one I think we got it right!

  3. Lady Danbury*

    This dynamic definitely raises red flags and Alison’s advice is spot on. Yes, Linda shouldn’t be responding to rudeness in kind, but it’s hugely problematic that people are allowed to speak to her however they choose and then framing her as the rude one when she responds in the same manner. It’s also hugely problematic that Linda allegedly has a reputation around the company but that nobody has raised it with her in 15+ years. Linda may be a problem, but she’s not THE problem. From her perspective, she may not even realize that the way she’s communicating isn’t ok if there’s a culture/history of people (especially senior ppl) communicating in inappropriate ways with seemingly no penalty. I’m also curious to know if Linda is “different” in any way from those who are being rude to her/observing the dynamic, whether it’s race, socioeconomic background, neurodivergence, etc.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      If anything, Linda may think that her behaviour is appropriate in this particular work environment. And why shouldn’t she, if a bunch of other people are doing the same thing? So I totally agree with you and Alison – there is a need to address Linda’s behaviour and also the broader dynamics of people being rude.

      1. Also-ADHD*

        I’m autistic (and ADHD) and tend to mirror other’s speech to a point (or writing) and it’s really hard for me to not be rude when faced with rudeness etc. In an email especially, I can make a different choice, if it’s obvious rudeness, but it’s just natural to me to act however the person acts. Because of hierarchy or because I’m a woman, that’s been problematic in some settings where it made me sound too directive, blunt, etc.

        1. Tiny Soprano*

          Oh my god the tone mirroring yes. I always get a colleague to read my emails for tone if I’m worried I’ve done this.

    3. Sloanicota*

      It’s awful if true that Linda’s rudeness is an “open secret” but nobody has ever discussed it with her :( That’s like my nightmare scenario. Captain Awkward had an interesting concept of a “grudge clock” that’s set at 15 years for other people but in this case, Linda is hearing about for the first time – the clock just started for her.

      1. MissBaudelaire*

        I was just thinking that. If no one has ever addressed this with Linda, she can’t change it.

    4. Neurospicy*

      Neurodivergence occurred to me too, but of course we don’t have enough information to say for sure. I’m glad Allison encouraged the LW to investigate the circumstances and whether bias could be involved.

    5. Project Maniac-ger*

      Totally agree. Nobody saying anything to Linda + being rude to her/back at her + HR Director that the CEO is scared of (!!) signals to me that Linda is a symptom, not the disease.

  4. Fluffy Fish*

    We have a Linda. People avoid dealing with her.

    She treats others like they’re alternately a burden or stupid because they aren’t doing things the way she thinks they should. She’s overly invested in what others are doing instead of minding her own work. But mostly – shes rude to flat-out mean.

    She proudly crows about being blunt and calling things like she sees it.

    It’s horribly horribly toxic and not dealt with I think largely because management doesn’t know how to deal with what they perceive to be a personality trait.

    But here’s the deal. Your personality can be as rude as you want it to be – but you cannot be rude to your colleagues even if that is your personality default. Sometimes people need to not bring their whole self to work.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      My mother is a Linda. She has about 1.5 friends and selective relationships with her children.

    2. Not A Girl Boss*

      Thank you for this wording. A Lou in a different department is rude-to-outright-bullying of one of my employees (and, to most humans in general, including me… but he’s flat out said to me he can’t stand my employee because she’s ‘stupid’). I’ve brought it up many times with his managers and also people in perceived positions of power/influence, and they all say “well, thats just how Lou is.”

      I found myself on the receiving end of that collective shrug yet again this morning, trying to figure out how to explain that people can’t “just be” bullies to my employee.

      1. Boof*

        I feel like an answer to “that’s just how she/he is” could be “ok, so why are they still here if they can’t behave professionally?”

    3. Ellis Bell*

      I’m not sure this is the same thing as the letter. Your example person is invested in being rude just to be mean, or at the very least it happens regardless of what others do. The example in the letter is responding in kind to other people who are rude first, which is unacceptable but different.

      1. Fluffy Fish*

        There is a perception of responding to people in-kind, and what OP is focusing on as they were direct complaints, but there’s more than that as indicated by previous managers feedback as well as that several people have already indicated the issues to OP aside from the two complaints he referenced. OP himself states that she has phrased things in a manner that he would not to a supervisor. This is super common that people do not directly complain 1) because there’s a perception that if an employee is behaving a certain way that the manager must be okay with it, 2) people feel weird about complain about other departments employees 3) what I mentioned about being perceived as a personality issue rather than a work issue.

        Linda’s behavior is a problem outside those two instances. Even the Linda at my work isn’t an ahole all the time. But she’s still an ahole.

    4. Dinwar*

      “She proudly crows about being blunt and calling things like she sees it.”

      I’ve noticed that people who brag about being brutally honest typically are more interested in the “brutally” part than the “honest” part.

      1. Bunch Harmon*

        Absolutely. I had a friend who claimed she “called a spade a spade” when in reality she called a spade a dirty rotten shovel.

      2. Hydrates all the flasks*

        Yeah in my experience, people who brag the loudest about being brutally honest and “I call it like it is, I hate drama, just tell it to my face,” etc…are often the ones who very much CANNOT take what they dish out :-/

        Funny how that works

      3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        i have never believed that honesty and brutality are mutually inclusive, or that bring brutal to someone is nothing to brag about, even if the speaker is also being honest.

    5. ThatOtherClare*

      I worked with a Linda type who was exactly as you describe – I’ll call him Liam. Liam had some legitimate issues in that he was underpaid, not respected, and worked for a micromanager. I get the impression he was pretty depressed. But, he used to take it out on everyone from the interns to random parcel delivery people. He had a reputation.

      I found out years later that Drew, a different colleague from the same organisation, had been dealing with a SAD diagnosis around the same time. Drew was also underpaid and had actually been laid off and re-hired at one point. Drew, like Liam, had a reputation. You could physically see people’s faces light up when they saw him. We’d all greet him in this happy way: “DreWW!”. He was always cheerful, friendly, helpful, and thoughtful. You’d always leave a conversation with Drew feeling better than you entered it. I only ever heard his name brought up in a positive context.

      Even in toxic circumstances, how a person responds to that toxicity is their choice.

    6. MissBaudelaire*

      I work with someone similar to Linda; especially with minding her own beeswax. And a big thing was–everyone just kind of dealt with it and said that was just how she was. Okay, cool, I’m not okay being treated that way. I went to management and pointed out the issues, and suddenly! they addressed it with her and things changed.

      You’re so right that people have personalities and that’s A-okay. It’s not okay to put your colleagues in a bad position with your personality.

      I’m so tired of hearing “That’s how they are.”

      Did anyone ever consider maybe they wouldn’t be like that if there were consequences for that action?

    7. Figaro*

      That sounds very frustrating – although I don’t think we have evidence in the letter that Linda is doing this.

  5. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    It’d be ideal if the CEO chose to also try to tackle the overall culture issue of people being rude to each other, since it seems to be a widespread issue. Like “we’ve collectively gotten off track on treating each other with kindness and respect and we need to make a point of changing our behaviour.”

    Though, sadly, it sounds like this might not accomplish anything, given that the CEO is scared of the HR Director and is unlikely to be firm about consequences.

    1. Observer*

      Though, sadly, it sounds like this might not accomplish anything, given that the CEO is scared of the HR Director and is unlikely to be firm about consequences.

      That’s a biggie, isn’t it. What else is off kilter in a company where the HR director is rude to people and the CEO is afraid to manage the HR director?

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Yep. To me, this is a big red flag for the company overall.
        OP, I would love to hear an update, including whether this is just one symptom of a larger cultural problem.

      2. Ellie*

        Yep – however rude Linda is being, it’s clearly not the worst issue this company has. Frankly, I’d treat it as a coaching/professional advice situation instead of a performance situation, for this reason alone.

  6. mango chiffon*

    Am curious if all of these incidents are entirely email related and if they’re saying her email tone is aggressive, or if this includes both email and spoken conversation. And are her emails just formal? or actually rude? Sometimes formality comes across as rude when everyone else is typing more casually. Doesn’t necessarily mean the person is actually being rude.

      1. Seashell*

        Getting tone from email can be an issue, but there’s a tonal difference between “Get me the TPS report NOW!” and “Could you please get me the TPS report ASAP? Thanks!”

        1. Sloanicota*

          Or “I have asked you before to send me the TPS report by noon and I once again don’t have it. Can you get it to me today.”

        2. LoraC*

          Or my former manager’s tendency to end sentences with ellipses. There’s a tonal difference between “Congrats on completing your first assignment…” vs “Congrats on completing your first assignment!”

      2. History Nerd*

        That’s not entirely true. There are ways to phrase emails that come across as more confrontational or aggressive, particularly if you exchange emails with someone regularly so a typical phrasing is well-known.

        But it is true that what seems aggressive to one person could often be seen as assertive or even neutral by another, depending on both the person and their frame of mind in the moment.

        1. I strive to Excel*

          Agreed – there are definitely ways to tone emails that make them outright aggressive or passive aggressive, but it’s also a well known fact that it’s a lot harder to get tone across in written media than it is in person. It’s one reason for the ubiquitousness of “businessese” – bland formal is boring but also less likely to come across wrong.

          1. Figaro*

            I personally find it easier to get the right tone with written communications. I can re-read it and adjust if it reads a certain way.

            When I’m speaking, it’s harder to know exactly how I’m “coming across.” I’ve learned over time that people interpret me as being too… something… when I speak because I’m passionate maybe? I’ve worked on trying to manage this but I hear back that someone interpreted me as arguing or irritated or rude or aggressive when I’m just… 100% not.

            I’m used to being misinterpreted from facial expressions or tone or god knows what, but as I don’t quite understand what people seeing, it is much harder. When it’s written, I can see it for myself.

        2. Guacamole Bob*

          Also based on their history with someone. I can easily see how I’d interpret the same brusque language from some of my colleagues as just their normal communication style in some cases, a sign that someone is rushed in other cases, and rude in still others, based on the verbal tone that conversations with those colleagues usually take.

        3. Kyrielle*

          Yeah, there’s not a lot that can be done to make “Are you done with that piece of s*** yet?”* not come off as aggressive, whereas “Do you have an estimate on when the blah file will be done?” will be more likely affected by the way the recipient views / interacts with the sender (and/or the world).

          * actual business communication I received from a boss, many years ago now.

        1. Quill*

          Yeah, I suspect it’s less that “tone” is hard to infer from written communication (which would surely have had some impact on, for example, novelists getting their message across) than that things like precise phrasing and punctuation use in semi-formal messages such as IM’s, email, and texts to colleagues can have hyper-specific local, generational, and company-wide rules, leading to conflict between different groups interpreting tone.

          (And also unfamiliarity with actually crafting / lack of sending context for written communications. And the fact that “meet me in my office at 3 pm” from your boss can NEVER be a neutral statement on its own because of the power differential / context that if something is new and without explanatory detail at work, most of us will assume it’s bad.)

        2. ThatOtherClare*

          Thank you, Pair of Does! Post-WWII grammar education has utterly failed to teach us the intended use of punctuation. Commas, dashes, semi-colons, ellipses – we have so much ability to convey pauses of different lengths, yet nobody bothers (presumably because they don’t know how). That’s before even getting into different ways of marking emphasis. Sadly, it often feels as though the entirety of tone communication in English has been reduced to the exclamation and question marks. I’m really not surprised that emojis have been invented – unfortunately they lack the nuance of in-sentence punctuation. Bring back the semi-colon!

          Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

      4. Ellis Bell*

        I think that some emails absolutely do have a discernable tone, but when you’re talking about writing there’s usually another and more specifically accurate word you could use to describe the issue instead. Whereas in speech, sometimes the words and syntax are perfectly polite but the only thing off is the tone.

      5. Jessica*

        I was today years old when I learned that tone can’t be conveyed in writing.

        I guess I’ll just go delete the entire “voice and tone” section of our style guide.

    2. Lacey*

      Yes. I’m trying to get to the point and leave out any excess so people don’t miss what I need (a frequent problem). But then they think it’s rude.

      Especially if I’m mentioning that they forgot something or did it the wrong way.

      And on the flip side, I hate it when people do the condescending, hand-holdy stuff they’re wanting from me. I don’t need to hear that you loved it but want to change everything. Just tell me the changes.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        I’ve run into this as well. I’ve defaulted to my first email to a new person being warmer, but once someone shows me they can’t read I stick to please, thank you, and good morning/afternoon. Unfortunately, sticking to please, thank you and good morning is seen as downright brusque when you’re young and female, at least that was my experience in municipal government.

        I do find that with individuals I need to have a lot of written contact with it can be worth once sentence to well-wish or ask how they are.

      2. ThatOtherClare*

        I also hate the hand-holdy “I loved it” stuff, but I do find it very valuable when people tell me what they want me to keep as well as what they want me to change.

        For example, if you tell me to add some extra information into a document, but don’t tell me you liked the fact that it was exactly one page long, I’m going to return with a 1.5 page document and waste both of our time with further revisions.

        I’m not a needy person fishing for vacuous praise. I can survive just fine without your flattery, thanks. But if you like something you need to tell me, or there’s every chance it will get lost in a subsequent edit and you’ll have to waste your own time waiting for me to add it back in.

    3. mreasy*

      I did in fact have a boss once tell me that my colleagues found me “intimidating” because I used proper capitalization & punctuation in emails, when the company norm was not to do so. True story!

      1. Jamie Starr*

        I had a supervisor complain that I used quotation marks when (wait for it) quoting something from a previous email in the chain. I have an academic background that required a lot of formal writing (think Chicago Manual of Style) and, so, even though my job didn’t necessary need it, that’s my default way of writing. (And even talking!)

    4. Sloanicota*

      I agree I’d be interested in knowing more about how Linda interacts outside of email, because the problem is more coachable if it’s “just” an email/tone problem, versus a whole attitude and way of being.

    5. Sparkles McFadden*

      Yeah…no. I agree that email does not convey tone well. This means you have to be much more thoughtful when writing them because the email recipient doesn’t have additional cues to understand that something was meant as a joke. Plus, it’s asynchronous so the writer won’t be getting real time feedback to say “That’s not what I meant” or to steer the conversation in a different way.

    6. Ama*

      Yes, I was curious about this, too. I had a colleague once who was one of the kindest colleagues I’ve ever had and his emails were brusque to the point that coworkers would ask me sometimes if he was upset with them. He wasn’t, he was just very busy and responding to emails with the shortest message possible. If most of Linda’s “rude” accusations come from email interactions it may be more about a writing style issue than her actual intent when writing the email.

      If the complaints are coming from in person interactions also, or she has shown the ability to send emails that don’t prompt complaints and it gets worse when she’s frustrated or unhappy with a coworker, then maybe it’s more of a discussion about not showing your frustration or annoyance with coworkers even when they are being frustrating or annoying.

    7. MigraineMonth*

      As someone who has really struggled with tone in emails (much more than other forms of communication), I would advise changing the medium as soon as possible if the responses seem annoyed or defensive. Making a phone call or stopping by their desk to get a temperature check early in the back-and-forth can prevent a lot of misinterpretation.

  7. Bookworm*

    I am a very direct and plain spoken person. I don’t beat around the bush. That can come across as rude to some people. I’ve worked at a company before, though, where other employees were very rude and abusive to me, constant bullying. When I attempted to stand up for myself, I was written up – multiple times. Management refused to do anything about the bullying. I finally left.

    2. mreasy*

      I know that we are taking OP at their word and I appreciate that. My concern is that OP says “I might have responded that way in a non-work context” given how rude the initial outreach messaging from others wasy.

      I would rather OP start with “hey, I want you to know have received some feedback that your tone is overly brusque from colleagues. I want to say that it in the examples they shared, you are meeting like with like – they were just as rude to you first. I wanted to tell you both that it’s crucial to mitigate your responses even when provoked, but even more importantly, that I want you to feel free to tell me when you are being treated this way by colleagues.” OP needs to be extremely careful to let the report know that they are supported, understood, and that it’s not a one-sided thing.

      I had a job that I was tremendously good at by every measurable metric and by many soft metrics – i.e. not only was my company doing better than it ever had in my territory, but all my coworkers in my territory gave me and my bosses active feedback that they liked working with me. However, because I was hired as a change agent specifically to improve my territory’s success (the largest global market for our product), I had to push back on some of the home office plans that had historically held us back, and the people who made the plans. I was doing so as respectfully as possible, but was often yelled at, sworn at, and generally treated very rudely and aggressively by the folks in the home office I had to disagree with. Whenever I stood up for myself, even if just by saying “I don’t want to talk about this if you are going to yell” and hanging up, they complained.. My bosses refused to give me a raise the entire time I worked there because of my “attitude” and the “complaints,” but also refused to share any details about the complaints, what I had said, who had complained, or even the context for them, so I couldn’t confront anyone directly (which I promised not to do).

      Do I think this would have happened were I not a younger women and all the people who complained about me older men? I sure don’t. When I quit, my bosses did shocked pikachu face. I guess they just figured I would take it, forever.

      Do not be like these people. Make sure your report knows you are on their side, first.

    3. Miracle*

      I think its important that if you know this about yourself, you pay attention to how you might be perceived in different context. Being plain spoken and not beating around the bush can be pretty intense for a new person, someone you have power over or in complex interactions.

    4. ThatOtherClare*

      An example of the kind of thing I think Bookworm is talking about, for those unclear on the distinction between plain spoken and rude:

      If you’re a senior carpenter and a junior carpenter brings you their wonky first chair there’s two approaches. You might say “Look, we can’t sell it but it’s about what I’d expect from someone at your level. The back’s not straight and one of the legs is backwards. Fix those two things and bring it back to me.” That’s simply conveying necessary information with zero regard for the junior carpenter’s feelings. You’re being plain spoken.

      Alternatively you might say: “That’s the worst chair I’ve seen all week. It’s making me stressed just looking at it. Take it away and fix it.” Those things are all true, but unnecessary to say. Just because they’re true doesn’t mean they help the junior fix the problem, or do better, or gain more context. The only thing you’re achieving by speaking these unhelpful truths out loud is deliberately making the junior feel bad. You’re being rude. That’s bullying.

      The distinction between being plain-spoken and rude is simply whether the content is helpful for the recipient or not. And for the record “It made me feel better after I said it” doesn’t count as helpful.

    5. Dood*

      As a neurodivergent woman, I can relate to this, and it’s such an awful experience.

      To be honest, my first thought reading this letter was that everyone needs compulsory training, including in communication styles, neurodivergent communication, neurodivergence in general, diversity, accessibility, and respectful communication.

      I’d also send the managers to management training.

    6. Figaro*

      Direct is good!

      The rudest people I encounter are passive aggressive, unclear, and lacking in respect for other people’s perspectives.

      Sometimes they are described as “direct” as a euphemism for “rude” “bully” “cruel” etc. Which is deeply unhelpful, not least because it frames directness as negative.

      Direct, clear, honest, but also paired with listening to the other person and genuine curiosity about their perspective is good.

      It does become rude if you’re *only* interested is saying what you want to say in a “direct” way, but not listening or empathising with others.

      It’s also, obviously, a massive problem when people pride themselves on being “direct” and honest – but cannot handle receiving directness and honesty from others.

    1. Kippu*

      It’s really not that simple given that different people are held to different standards based on their age/skin color/gender etc.

      1. Zelda*

        In a service occupation, I get criticised for being “b!tchy” when male colleagues who speak the exact same way are praised for “showing leadership.” Feh.

    3. bamcheeks*

      I’ve never had this at work but I have had it online SO MUCH:

      Men on the internet: Women just can’t handle the rough and tumble of debate! I don’t see why we should pander to their delicate feelings just because they can’t take it!
      Me, female username: *mild irony at the expense of a male poster*
      MOTI: Excuse ME? Wow. WOW. Well if you can’t even be POLITE, if you can’t even be CIVIL, I don’t know why I BOTHER.

      It’s the good old, “some people say if you don’t respect me, I won’t respect you, but they mean if you don’t treat them like an authority I won’t treat you like a person”.

    4. AnonInCanada*

      If it were only that easy to define. What may seem normal and unobtrusive to you may be conjured up as rude and condescending to someone else. Ask anyone who’s ever worked in a customer-facing role (think retail) who’s had a Karen/Kevin demand they’re fired for any sleight (read: they didn’t get their way) in the way they presented themselves.

      You always need to take the high road, regardless on how you’re treated, no matter how difficult this may be. Stooping to their level makes it a victory in their minds, and all it does is makes you miserable.

        1. AnonInCanada*

          There’s no better way to deal with these types than killing them with kindness. Also, don’t forget ending your conversation with the classic line: “I hope the rest of your day is as pleasant as you.” Because they can’t say anything about that one! :-P

        2. Ally McBeal*

          I emailed a reporter a piece of news earlier this week (“Jane Doe just joined the board of XYZ nonprofit”) and received the reply “who cares!!!!!” and a diatribe about how they have been discriminated against in their industry by a member of their own ethnic group. Concluded with “I control more [ethnic group] outlets than anyone else in the country. If you need something to be public, it’s not free. By the way, you can buy my book on Amazon.” (??????)

          I replied with “Hi – I’m not sure how to interpret this reply. Would you like me to remove you from my mailing list?” Got a short “yes” and replied with “Will do, hope you have a great rest of your week!” Was really hoping for a final “wow, sorry, I’m having a bad day, didn’t mean to take it out on you”… but some people are just miserable. Still got a lot of satisfaction out of killing this very weird stranger with kindness.

          1. WellRed*

            Frankly, as a reporter, I would have reported this to the editor. Way off base and highly unprofessional.

      2. Guacamole Bob*

        Agreed. One person’s short and direct is another person’s brusque, and communication to colleagues can vary with the relationship, type of communication, medium (chat vs email), etc. The same line of “Where’s the link to the TPS report?” sent by chat to a close colleague with whom I have an established warm relationship might read as totally normal, but sent by email with no greeting or thank you to soften it to a colleague in a different department I don’t know well could easily be read as impatient and rude.

        1. Anon 4 this*

          I just moved to an area with a HUGE population from the Indian subcontinent. Thankfully, I had been in the comments section on an AAM archive post that mentioned the culture clash of South Asians ***in general!!!*** being more brusque / less filtered than US culture. I could VERY EASILY have seen how different interactions I’ve had in the last week would be considered downright rude to most of the folks I know. Instead, that but if a cultural heads up has allowed me to extend grace, and teach my kids as well, while seeing the warmth in the interaction.

          And I thought *I* was blunt!

          1. Part time lab tech*

            My husband once told me that please, thankyou and sorry we’re demeaning. It’s a kindness to explain that in Anglo culture never using them, or only expecting the one down person to use them makes them come across as -ist jerks. Also, that we use them as a substitute for polite tenses that English doesn’t use.

    5. Dinwar*

      Define “rude”.

      To give an example: Swearing among construction workers is considered a normal part of conversation. There’s a difference between swearing at you and swearing to you; the latter is fine, just conversation, whereas the former is rude. In contrast, many people find swearing at all rude. It’s the use of the words that matter, not how they’re used. A conversation between these two about being rude is going to be very confusing and frustrating, as they have very, very different standards.

      I’ve run into this in other contexts as well. For example, as a scientist the polite thing to do when presented with an idea is to take it apart and analyze it and see how it works. You’re giving your time and mental energy to the idea, after all. Many who are not used to that sort of communication style view such analysis as an attack against them personally. Telling a scientist “Just don’t be rude” is going to lead to them being very frustrated, because they weren’t being rude, they were in fact being polite.

      Then you have counter-signaling, where being rude is in fact a way to be polite. Dangerous, because it can easily backfire, but powerful when it works. Think good-natured pranks in the office, or those friends where you’re not sure if they’re going to kill each other or are best friends.

      This is one reason why a manager needs to set standards of conduct and communication. Given the huge variety of communication styles, it’s unreasonable to expect them all to share the same style coming in. Having some minimal standards, and gently reminding people of them when they screw up, is typically necessary.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        100% agree. This is very much based on culture and context.

        It’s not helpful to offer simple solutions to complex situations. (That paragraph about science types is spot on!)

          1. Dinwar*

            Who gets to determine that, though? In an organization of any significant size cultural osmosis isn’t effective (if it were, we wouldn’t need SOPs and employee handbooks). It should take about two seconds to realize why Majority Rules isn’t an effective option. And remember, that culture can change, often extremely rapidly. I’ve had to meet with heads of government agencies, then turn around and deal with construction crews in the same hour.

            And how do you learn what the rules of that culture and context are? Mostly you learn the rules by violating them until you figure out where the boundaries are–but remember, these are not fixed, and can often change quite rapidly within a group. It’s normal for groups to cycle through the “Norming”, “Storming”, and “Performing” phases multiple times over their life cycles, especially if membership changes.

            Ultimately, the determiner of the culture and context is the manager in charge of whatever you’re doing. A good manager is obviously going to take into account how people in the group act, but the manager also needs to enforce boundaries.

            1. Apex Mountain*

              “I’ve had to meet with heads of government agencies, then turn around and deal with construction crews in the same hour.”

              Yes and I’d wager you were able to handle both of those meetings without being rude or nasty.

              1. Peanut Hamper*

                Yes, but both contexts are completely different, which is exactly what Dinwar was talking about. You seem determined not to recognize this and reduce complex human interactions to a bumper sticker. If that works for you great, but realize that not everybody else has the same experience.

                1. Apex Mountain*

                  I agree completely that what’s rude in one situation might not be rude in another. All I’m saying is that we usually can deal with that by using our experience to understand the context and act accordingly.

              2. Dinwar*

                The irony here is that your comment is rude and nasty–or at least, could EASILY be seen as such. Which sort of proves my point.

                1. Apex Mountain*

                  Well my point wasn’t that there’s a universal standard for rudeness. It’s that whatever the particular standard is in whatever context we’re talking about, folks should try to be kind. For the vast majority if we’re doing something inappropriate and we’re told, we’ll stop doing that.

          2. Broadway Duchess*

            To highlight just how not simple this task can be, I find this comment rude. You possibly didn’t intend for it to come off that way, but in my circles, starting a sentence with that type of “Ok…” indicates a dismissive attitude. People read things differently, so that needs to be taken into consideration.

      2. Zelda*

        For example, as a scientist the polite thing to do when presented with an idea is to take it apart and analyze it and see how it works.

        Heh. I’m an analytical chemist (among other things). Being picky is my stock in trade. I (and my analytical chemist colleagues, when we’re on a team with other sorts of professionals) get dinged all the time for “being negative,” when I’m just identifying the obstacles to implementing someone’s idea. Identifying the obstacles doesn’t mean “I think your idea stinks;” it means “Hmm, let’s see what would really be involved here and start sketching out a map of how we could make it happen; let’s Do This Thing!”

        1. MigraineMonth*

          I’ve noticed this exactly! The person who pitched the idea thinks everyone hates it, because the engineers keep pointing out problems. Meanwhile, the engineers have decided it’s a go, have worked out many of the implementation details and are trying to anticipate any issues scaling it up to a million users.

        2. Arrietty*

          Identifying the obstacles can easily mean “this is a great idea, let’s make sure it can hold up to rigorous scrutiny!”

        3. Silver Robin*

          not in STEM at all (not even in academia/research) but very very implementation/analysis oriented. Deconstructing a thing, finding obstacles, etc comes very naturally to me and means I am *engaged* not that I hate the thing or the person. “Okay so what do we do when…” means I am probably already on board. And if the idea turns out not to work, well, we move onto the next one; bummer but no big deal.

      3. ThatOtherClare*

        Simple.

        Blunt is: “You’ve divided by zero.”
        Rude is: “You’ve divided by zero, you idiot.”

        Far too many people, scientists included, think that the part before the comma justifies the part after the comma. Blunt is necessary, adding the rudeness is not.

        (Also, only saying the first part but in a sarcastic tone instead of a neutral tone is just the passive-aggressive style of being rude. We can hear what you’re implying, you’re not being clever, everyone knows you’re being an ass.)

    6. Orv*

      I know people, some of them friends, where there’s really no alternative to be blunt to the point of rudeness. They’re neurodivergent in a way that means they’re unable to pick up on hints or nuance. One example: I told someone they could spend the night. They spent the next *three* nights before I finally told them directly they had to leave. (It got to three because the second night they brought their own booze into the house and got too drunk to drive.) It’s rude to say, “you have to leave now, you can’t just live on our couch because you hate your apartment” to someone but that was what it took.

      1. Silver Robin*

        We had friends stay over because drunk and late, and while we were more than happy to offer the guest room (we have one to use it) these two did not leave until 1pm the next day and it was a work day for us (Monday)! We did not think we had to spell out “please get your transit home sorted and leave” because 1) we only said they could spend the *night*, and 2) we had already checked in about how they were getting home and whether they needed a ride, so we knew they were not waiting on us. My partner eventually asked again and when told “Uber”, he put the phone in the guy’s hand and said “great, please order it now”.

        1. Orv*

          Yeah, I hate it when people make me be rude like that. I come from a culture where you normally just say something like, “welp, guess it’s gettin’ late” and the guest takes the hint and leaves.

    7. NaoNao*

      It is but like many things, it’s simple but not easy. I’m autistic and very direct. I’ve been accused of being negative and responded “I don’t think stating business facts is “throwing someone under the bus” when my boss confronted me/reprimanded me.

      I’d said I was waiting on a deliverable during a presentation to a vendor when someone in that presentation slapped her computer shut, turned on her heel and flounced out of the room to “tattle” on me that I’d “thrown [so and so] under the bus” (which I think counts as rude) with breathless outrage.

      I had ZERO intention of being rude and I still am baffled by that reaction. I get intent isn’t magic, but many people perceive especially women saying bald facts without any qualifiers, apologies, or softening as “rude” so it’s not all that simple IMHO.

      2. Dinwar*

        And if you DO add qualifiers, apologies, or softening, you’re seen as being imprecise or hedging or evading or otherwise not being clear with your communication. You have to balance the two, and the ideal balance point is different for everyone.

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          Not only that, I find people tend to miss the message entirely when you soften the language.

    8. TheBunny*

      It’s really not though. Rude to me and rude to someone else might be very different just based on culture, family, where you were raised, etc.

  9. GwenSoul*

    Ugh I have/am the Linda here. It took a lot of work to break the tone and make a better persona that is natural and my first go to. I was also there 15+ years and didn’t even realize the impression i was giving because I always got positive feedback because I was a high performer, it came down to the higher you go the more these soft skills matter. my boss did admit that some of this was coming because I was a woman in a male field, and it was up to me about how much I wanted to fight back against that. I decided that I shouldn’t be talking to people that way, even if I was getting more flack for it because of my sex. I was also angry at first, so don’t be surprised if she also comes back with that but once I had a chance to think about it, it was a worthwhile discussion

    In the early days I would set aside time in each of my 1×1 with my leader to discuss any concerns she got and any times I was unsure of and go through roleplays on how to better handle them. I took it on myself to change and did not expect anyone else to. It took over a year to have my reputation change but it has been worth the effort.

    1. Leenie*

      I’m impressed by your post and how you put the effort into growth. And now that you’re not just a high performer, but a high performer with good relationships, I imagine that you’ve made yourself an incredibly valuable employee.

      I’m curious – was your manager newer, like the LW, or a longer time manager who had a delayed conversation?

    2. Could be Linda*

      I too could be Linda. And while I do work on my tone it is demoralizing when co-workers still get to be aggressive and rude / mean to me. In my case it is structured so I tell the worst offenders boss and they address it.
      The fact that HR is a main culprit will likely not sit well as you coach Linda to curb her behavior. So don’t be surprised if at some point Linda decides this isn’t an environment where she wants to stay where she is being held to a different standard then someone as critical as the HR manager.

    3. Sloanicota*

      This is a good point that Linda’s reaction to the initial discussion might not be indicative of her approach to the situation overall. Also, it is really hard to change after 15 years with the same players. Really, really hard. So Linda may need more support and grace than you’d hope even if she is genuinely willing to change.

    4. Cat Tree*

      Your experience demonstrates that soft skills are still *skills*, which means most people can improve to some extent with practice. And just like any skill, some people are naturally more talented, and some people can only reach a certain level of proficiency even with practice.

      But it’s easy to forget that these things can be worked on and aren’t just an immutable force of the universe.

    5. Sparkles McFadden*

      I think that 98% of the people at work want to do a good job, but many of those people need someone to define what “doing a good job” entails. Too many managers shy away from uncomfortable conversations, without understanding they are doing their direct reports a disservice. Any time I coached someone on soft skills, the response was almost always “Why didn’t anyone tell me this before?” This was not in a defensive way as in “no one else has a problem with this” but as in “I would have worked on this if I had known it was important.”

  10. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    It’s not fair no one ever talked to her about it but now you are expected to. I mean honestly has been there longer than you and everyone seems to have tolerated, if not participated in the same behavior. But now the new person has to fix it.

    I also have concerns about tone policing. And your HR if the CEO seems scared of her and HR wants you to talk to your report about her behavior but doesn’t seem to address the same issue in her own ranks. Now they might have handled it and you wouldn’t be privy to the details. But a simple, I will speak to my person, thanks for letting me know, would suffice to let you know you were at least heard.

    1. Artemesia*

      As a new person though, she can be ‘shocked’ at the way people are speaking to each other and try to intervene.

      1. Tio*

        Agree. Make it clear that none of these tones is ok, including hers and yours, and make sure that if she feels she is getting a rude email she can bring it to you.

        And then play the game back. Tell those supervisors that pardon me, but your report is being very rude, just like they did about Linda, but without Linda responding back in kind. If it continues, Step into the email directly and advise that this tone is not acceptable and you’d like to ensure that all coworkers are being spoken to with respect on all ends. Escalate it to the same HR director and if needed play the double standard card – you’ve advised this isn’t acceptable so I’m bringing similar communication to your attention for action. Follow up with them if it continues as well. The most important thing is to show Linda that you’re taking action not just against her but for her as well, because that shows you really so want the playing field even.

    2. Skitters*

      These kinds of situations always arise when former supervisors have played “kick the can” with their responsibilities.

      It makes situations like these so much more difficult to handle.

    3. Adam*

      It’s not fair, but it’s also the job. Just because the previous manager let something fester doesn’t mean you should, you’ve still got to address it if you want to do the job properly.

  11. desk platypus*

    I’ve got a Linda in my department, with around the same amount of years. I’m not the manager but I was in a pseudo supervisory position without real power while we were without an official manager for a few months. I tried the “you can’t speak to people that way” path and it blew up spectacularly in my face. She flipped and snapped then the problems happening were now my responsibility if I wanted to get so involved. She just went on and on in an angry ramble. I’ve dealt with members of the public who could have physically harmed me and I was more shaken by my Linda than by them. She had a WILD look in her eyes.

    It escalated to the top boss and it was basically decided everyone would stick to their own lanes as much as possible. When we did get a manager she’s taken the “don’t be rude to your colleagues and I’m not allowing them to be rude to you” route that’s actually made our Linda a little easier to work with. It’s not perfect though. She scared me when I confronted her but just recently when another coworker asked her to not be so rude when she asked her for clarifications our Linda was basically like, “Well that’s just how I speak but I’ll try,” but she did it calmly. Progress? Kind of, even if it’s super disappointing. So you’re going to have to prepare for the possibility that someone who’s gotten away with it for over a decade is going to change very, very slowly.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Sounds like your Linda reacted the way a wild animal sometimes will when they’re cornered. I wonder what kind of toxicity she’s had to deal with either in your office or in her life to cause her to react like that.

      It sounds like progress is being made, so that’s a good thing!

      1. desk platypus*

        Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that although our Linda had the biggest confrontational reactions the others were no picnic either. I was put in not-quite charge after being there for only 2 months as opposed to everyone else’s 5-15 years over me, and their previous manager had given up for many years due to older age and health. It felt like battle royale for months. But luckily my new manager sought to correct everyone individually and as a unit. At first people would say “I’m being targeted” until they realized everyone was being held to more professional standards.

      2. Reebee*

        “I wonder what kind of toxicity she’s had to deal with either in your office or in her life to cause her to react like that.”
        —

        Many people deal with toxicity and aren’t jerks to others. Speculating on cause isn’t really useful.

  12. Heather*

    It sounds to me like the whole company is long overdue for a PD?CEon office language and communication. Once everyone takes the PD/CE, it will be easier to address the issues because there has been instruction. Starting to intervene in person on a 15+ year issue doesn’t make sense unless there is an educational component prior to the personal discussions and interventions.

      2. Heather*

        Yes, professional development or continuing education. Usually a short 1-2 hour webinar or training on specific topics for employees. Sometimes specific to roll like new updates on a software being used and other times used for things like company policy, safety, etc.

  13. Lisa*

    Thanks for pointing out the issue with gender and race around “rudeness” in the workplace. My sister got complaints that she was “bossy” when she was a newer manager, and while she did make some changes to her style some, she was mostly just annoyed, since if she was a man, she would have just been praised for being assertive and showing leadership potential.

    1. Don't shoot the messenger*

      “In she was a man, she would have just been praised for being assertive and showing leadership potential.”

      In my experience, what gets women called “bossy” gets men called “dicks,” “pricks,” and worse. The idea that there’s some double standard at play here is a modern myth.

      1. Leenie*

        I strongly disagree with you that no double standards exist. It’s confounding and upsetting to have the personal experience of so many of us referred to as a “myth”.

      2. AMH*

        That doesn’t match with my actual experience of the double standard. I’m not sure that you can categorically say it’s a modern myth just because it isn’t your experience (just as I can’t say it’s universal based on mine).

        1. Don't shoot the messenger*

          That’s perfectly true. Although I have never in all my life seen this supposed double standard at play, I acknowledge that experiences in this regard may differ from that of other commenters. I respect that. But I expect others to respect my lived experiences too.

          1. AMH*

            Sure, I can fully respect that you’ve never experienced this (and that’s a happy fact, honestly!). In turn, I hope you can respect that saying something is a modern myth because you haven’t experienced it will be seen as dismissive to people who have.

            Surely it’s more fair to say it happens, but not to everyone nor universally, given how many people have reported experiences of double standards?

            1. Don't shoot the messenger*

              You’re right, though I would gently add that I suspect many people would acknowledge that they do in fact think of their male bosses as “dicks” and “assholes” but that they simply don’t put these thoughts in the same mental category as calling their female bosses “bossy”—that is, they don’t regard them as sexist observations and therefore don’t think of them as problematic or worthy of further thought or comment.

          2. Insert Clever Name Here*

            You will find people are more willing to accept your lived experience if you do not call theirs a “modern myth.”

          3. Calanthea*

            I have also seen this in play, so hopefully you are now convinced that this isn’t a “myth” just because you haven’t seen it!

            It’s great that you’ve always worked in places where this doesn’t happen, but if you want to keep an eye out for it, you may find that sometimes it’s not as obvious as Cynthia saying “I need the TPS reports by noon” and everyone saying she’s bossy, and then Cyril saying “I need the TPS reports by noon” and everyone saying he’s assertive.

            Work doesn’t take place in a vaccum, we’re already part of a very gendered, racist society. So Perhaps Cyril is working on a high profile project, that’s known to have a lot of urgent deadlines, and so OF COURSE he needs the financial figures for a presentation this afternoon immediately! But then after the presentation, he has some time to come round and say thanks whilst his assistant types up the minutes, and he might take everyone for a round of drinks later because he doesn’t need to rush home later.

            However, Cynthia is trying to compile everyone’s timesheets, AGAIN, and once she’s done that she then has to double check that they’ve been completed correctly before reconciling them with project budgets, oh and can she get some figure to Charles because he needs them for Cyril’s presentation, and by the way does she know where last year’s report on the llama groomers certification process went, and so she just doesn’t have time to soften her ask, before going home to pick up her kids.

            Do you see how there might be some genuine difference in how these two communicate, even if the request is basically the same, and how easy it would be to write one off as “blunt” or “rude”?

      3. Cat Tree*

        Sure, men *can* get labeled as bossy if they’re bad enough. But the threshold to get a label is MUCH lower for women. That is the double standard.

        Surely you don’t think that if any man is ever criticized once for something, it can’t be a double standard when it happens much more often to women. That is some bizarre pretzel logic.

        1. Don't shoot the messenger*

          But I’m making a different claim than the one you’re responding to. I’m not saying, “Men get called bossy too,” to which you might reasonably respond, “But the threshold is lower for women.” I’m saying that men are called “dicks” and “assholes” *instead* of bossy, and that, in my experience, the threshold is more or less identical.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            There’s actually research on this showing the opposite. It’s not helpful to go back and forth arguing about whether a well-documented brand of sexism actually exists — and it’s pretty exhausting — so I’m going to close this subthread.

      4. NorthBayTeky*

        When you’re left out of the club, you know it.
        When you’re in the club, you don’t see what the problem is.

      1. Axel*

        this bit is not as cute as you think it is. saying “don’t shoot the messenger”, saying that a well-documented facet of workplace misogyny is a ‘myth’ because you personally haven’t experienced it, and then receiving pushback and claiming to be ‘shot’ is a really unfair and terrible position to put people in. you are not the messenger. this is not a universal truth or someone else’s message. this is your opinion. own it and the consequences of it or be quiet.

      2. Axel*

        like, you simply don’t get to say ‘this is my (inflammatory) opinion, no one is allowed to respond negatively or with disagreement or they’ve Shot The Messenger.’ nope! not how this works and not fair to anyone.

    3. Jamie Starr*

      I’ll also add authority to this list. There is a book called “The Authority Gap: Why Women are Still Taken Less Seriously Than Men, and What We Can Do About It.” Until I read that book I didn’t know there was a name for the term, but suddenly so many things about not being taken seriously at my (then) job made sense.

      I re-read the OP’s letter and it’s unclear what level of authority Linda has, and/or if all the complaints are coming from men or people who don’t have the same level of experience/expertise in Linda’s area. It only says they’ve been at the company the same amount of time. But that could be another thing to look at. Is Linda feeling frustrated because no one is taking her authority seriously? Even if she’s frustrated, admittedly she shouldn’t be rude, but if no one ever listens to you when they are supposed, and are rude about not listening then, yeah, I might tempted to get a little rude, too.

    4. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      To “Don’t shoot the messenger* – being called a prick/dick/ass doesn’t have the same negative connotation as the names women are called. Those are still power terms. For more on this, look up the exercises that compare slang terms for genitals for men and women. The men’s slang is not stigmatized and even the worst descriptions convey a grudging respect or acknowledgment of for power; the women’s slang implies weakness and contemptibility (if that’s even a word).

      Also, being called bossy is a way of undermining the woman’s actions and says she needs to step back into a non-assertive role. It isn’t the same behavior as would result in a man being called a prick. In other words, the same behavior gets a woman called bossy but gets a man praised.

  14. Educator*

    I think that, in addition to considering the potential race/gender aspects at play here, we should also consider the potential cultural ones. People who grew up in more direct cultural contexts (including within the same countries or cities) often come across as rude to those who come from indirect ones.

    My organization, which hires from all over the U.S., has tried to address this in our onboarding by giving all new hires training from our marketing department on the “company voice.” It has worked pretty well for written things–most of us stay on brand for all of our internal and external communications, and we have a shared vocabulary for talking about it if something comes off in a weird way. The training is about five years old, and it has made a big difference in that time.

    But, of course, there are also some people who are just rude, or who come off that way without meaning to, and that is an important thing for managers to address.

    1. I strive to Excel*

      There’s some fascinating reading out there about Ask cultures vs Guess cultures. If anyone here has done the Minnesotan Last Cookie social dance, they’ve participated in a Guess culture activity.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        I’m an East Coaster who moved to Wisconsin, not Minnesota, but I used to watch this dance with fascination:

        A tray of cookies shows up in the break room in the morning, and within minutes they’re gone, except the Last Cookie. No one will touch the Last Cookie. That would be rude. What if someone else wants the Last Cookie more? What if there is a sugar-related emergency later in the door that could only be alleviated by this Last Cookie?

        Then, just after lunch, it happens: the Last Cookie becomes the Last Half Cookie. No one ever saw what happened; it was always done in utmost secret. Now what? Is the Last Half Cookie desecrated and therefore available for eating, or is it doubly sanctified? No one is sure. Better not eat it, just in case. It might be rude.

        Around 3pm, it happens again: the Last Half Cookie becomes the Last Quarter Cookie. Again, no one saw the perpetrator.

        At this point I worry someone is going to split the atom in their quest to get a crumb of cookie without taking all 0f the crumb, so I go ahead and eat the (slightly stale) Last Quarter Cookie and throw out the paper plate.

        *shrugs* I’m from the East Coast.

        1. Orv*

          I started buying donut holes instead of donuts. People would cut the donuts in half, so I figured I’d save them the trouble. So far I haven’t found any half-holes.

      3. allathian*

        Or its cousin, “you have to refuse seconds at least twice before you can accept, even if you’re starving.”

        I’m in Finland, and while our conversational culture is often characterized as very direct compared to many others, Guess culture is strong in parts of rural Eastern Finland where my mom grew up. I don’t really remember my maternal grandfather (I was 5 when he died and he’d been sick for a long time before that), but my grandmother was very much a Guess culture person. My dad’s family was definitely from an Ask culture, so early in their relationship the conversations with in-laws must’ve been interesting to say the least. My mom learned to code switch, with her siblings she’s fully Guess, but with us she hasn’t been. When we were kids, my sister and I got a reputation for being greedy when we stayed with grandma because we never fully internalized the “refuse twice before you accept seconds” rule. As much as I love my mom’s side of the family, I find the Guess culture social dance exhausting and won’t fully adapt to it when I spend time with them. But it’s good to be aware of the differences.

        The state with the largest percentage of Finnish Americans is Minnesota (less than 2 percent of the population, although the percentage has been larger in the past before more recent immigration from elsewhere), followed by Michigan and Washington.

  15. Heffalump*

    I worked with a Linda some years ago, and my wimpy manager said, “You can’t discipline a person for being tactless.” It was tactlessness all right, but it was also unjust criticism. And I would have been just offended if the rude person had been a man.

    1. Grey Coder*

      Exactly. If you don’t deal with it, it can escalate beyond tactless.

      At ExJob, there were a couple of men who considered themselves “straight talking, no BS” people. Because they were on the same team (one managed the other), they fed off each other and a lot of people avoided them. One day, their “straight talking” spilled out as a truly offensive and ableist comment about a co-worker.

      I wish I could say they were fired, but I think they got let off with a write-up.

    2. I strive to Excel*

      Key indicator of a bad manager – conflating managerial intervention as “discipline”. Yeah, being tactless shouldn’t immediately put you on a PIP, but the manager has the ability and responsibility to sit down with their employee and require a baseline standard of being polite to coworkers. And potentially offering coaching. “I understand that you don’t mean to sound rude over the email, but it comes across as very brusque; here’s some things you can try that can help” is also well within a manager’s or mentor’s bailiwick.

  16. PotsPansTeapots*

    This letter is a good illustration of how some parts of a toxic work culture can get that way. An abrasive employee isn’t really dealt with, people have opinions on that and interact with her abrasively off the bat, and years later it’s extremely hard to untangle the threads. Hopefully, OP can start to tackle this.

  17. Hedgehug*

    I would just sit them down and start over. This has been a pattern you all have fallen into, I get it. But starting from now, it stops. Be professional.
    I think they will all be happier having someone step in. Sometimes you need an outsider to step in to stop a pattern.

  18. Observer*

    To add to what Alison said, it may also be that some people are starting off defensive because of her reputation, rather than having actually had a bad interaction with her.

    These things tend to be a spiral, and it’s really important to break that kind of vicious cycle.

    Also, I’m going to add to what Alison said about the potential for double standards. In addition to the possibility that she’s being tagged as “difficult” or “abrasive” due to double standards, it’s also possible that she *is* being genuinely rude, but that she is the only one being called out for it while others get a pass.

    For instance, if she calls someone stupid, that’s genuinely rude. And it should be unacceptable from anyone. But if it turns out that other people also call people stupid and they get a pass, that becomes a bigger problem. I would be surprised if that’s the case, from what you say. But it happens just often enough that I’d look at the possibility.

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      Very much this. It’s still not ok, but it’s certainly an element to consider that if people have repeatedly experienced difficulty working with Linda, they’re not likely to go into dealing with her by being rainbows and kittens.

  19. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

    If people are getting snippy with me, I ask if we can have a quick call or set up a meeting to discuss and just try to get through what is causing the frustration. I know that’s not always an option, but being visually face-to-face often diffuses snippiness. There was one person in my past who was naturally so grouchy that it didn’t help. But most reasonable people want to preserve relationships and not be frustrated just as much as you do.

    1. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      What I meant to say was, my advice to Linda would be to take a deep breath and try to talk to the person visually if she sensed snippiness and felt herself wanting to shoot off a rude email in turn.

    2. Anonym*

      Yeah, it doesn’t work with everyone, but I’ve encountered some seemingly pain in the neck folks who were much more relaxed and open to resolution over the phone or in person than by written communication. Two in particular came from a team culture that was VERY defensive via email. Talking to them was like night and day. Not sure what was up with their managers, but something was definitely going on there.

      1. Silver Robin*

        I find that people get much antsier around the written word. 1) tone is harder to read and 2) it is an official paper trail. So folks want to cover their butts and get a lot more defensive in writing while in person, they are much more flexible/warm/open because miscommunication can be resolved more quickly and there is no record where they can be called to the mat for being “wrong”.

  20. Lucy*

    This one’s kind of tough for me. I’ve never been accused of being rude at work, but have been accused of “being argumentative” or “firing back”, when I write clear, direct emails explaining why we can’t fund or complete a specific request. Having looked at colleagues’ communications, I can see that the culture here is to be extremely apologetic and overly friendly – a sort of customer service tone (my job isn’t customer service) – particularly, and perhaps uniquely if you are female.
    To be fair, we mostly are women, but the men do seem to escape this expectation.

    The other issue, often, is not only hierarchical dynamics but different team dynamics. For example, in the work I do, social workers are always the lead professionals, though they have no hierarchical advantage or management responsibility for any other professionals. Sometimes (rude) professionals will be rude to social workers because they feel a social worker is getting “above themself” by just doing their job. Other times, social workers will get annoyed and be rude because they don’t understand the parameters of the roles of other professionals, and think they should be able to dictate these, because they are “the lead”. So, politics are also a factor.

    However, you’ve identified that the tone is off. Personally, I’d advise going further and looking at why it feels that way. Sometimes people write emails in irritation and know that they’re making it sound that way. Other people have no idea how their mood can be read through their text. The latter group may need to have examples pointed out to them specifically, especially if these are subtle. I also find this a good test of, “is it definitely rude, and not just me expecting a more fawning tone from this person, for some reason?”. I believe you, 100% that you are reading a tone here, but that’s just something I’ve found useful in general, when applying this technique, as none of us are exempt from bias.

    Since you know the tone is rude, it won’t be too difficult to pick out a few examples of poor or snappy wording, exclamation marks, perhaps, or something that comes across as sarcastic, so your report really hears your message.

    The fact that people say she seems happier at work now, also makes me wonder whether she has some built up frustration from poor management or excessive criticism in the past, which is leading her to be snappier than she otherwise might – but all of that is something you can discuss with her in the meeting.

  21. el l*

    What’s her normal tone? Obviously you’ve seen a couple more extreme examples, but does she – in the normal course of business with a variety of colleagues, vendors, etc – use unnecessarily abrasive or adversarial language that starts people down this path? Or is it just a few higher-stress situations? (To answer this, would recommend taking 30-60 minutes and look at ~20 interactions across variety of situations)

    Because if her standard-operating tone is rough, fix that first. That may keep her out of some bad situations.

    As for the higher-stress situations, you’ll notice that when people complain about tone, it’s usually more powerful people complaining about people at their level or below. And, as you’ve seen, often coming from people guilty of the same. thing. Which doesn’t make it illegitimate! How you say something IME can be 50-95% of the result, it’s her job to manage that, and it’s your job to give her advice on how to improve it. But you have to take that “bad tone” message with a small grain of salt. In any event, perhaps stress management is the answer, or perhaps “bring in boss” is the answer – either way, doesn’t have to be adversarial, you’re just helping her nip problems in the bud.

    1. Banana Pyjamas*

      I really like this advice. I think it could be important for lw to compare conversations that Linda starts to conversations others start as well.

    2. Miracle*

      I am a manager of managers and play an HR role. I get a lot of complaints about supervisors and tone. And I hear…I am a straight shooter. Kindness and carefulness goes a long way when people are emailing all day.

      1. el l*

        Agree. To get tone right in emails is superseded in difficulty only by getting tone right in text messages.

        Especially with the sheer volume of emails most people have to do, it just takes a lot more care to only cause tiffs when you have to.

        It’s an essential professional skill in many jobs. Mine is one.

  22. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    I manage a team that deals with a lot of “who started it” rudeness/tone issues. I think one crucial piece is to find out from Linda what’s going on. So like, share a couple examples through the lens of “your tone seemed rude/abrasive to me here,” but then ask her what’s up and hear her out.

    In my experience, this dynamic can emerge a bunch of different ways, for example:
    – Maybe the rudeness started with Linda awhile ago and has led to this toxic mutual-rudeness dynamic
    – Maybe Linda reverts to this because the rudeness actually started with the other person, and Linda has figured out this is the only way to get things done with that person
    – Maybe there’s such a pervasive culture of rudeness that Linda assumes it’s normal and isn’t even aware of how she’s coming across

    The ultimate standard to hold Linda to is still “you can’t treat colleagues like that, and it’s not ok for them to treat you like that either.” But the more you can find out from Linda about what she thinks is driving the rudeness, the more specific/actionable your feedback for her can be – and the more it can point you toward things in your sphere of control to address it. (For example, if this is a deeply entrenched dynamic, you may need to do more than flag for the other coworker’s manager that they were rude too – it may require more of an ongoing management partnership to make sure both parties are working on improving the relationship.)

    Plus Linda will likely respond to the feedback better if she feels heard. It SUCKS when you have a culture that looks the other way at rudeness and you feel like you have to fight fire with fire just to survive in that culture, so you want to create some space for her to raise concerns like that (without enabling her). This is especially worth doing because the HR director sounds like part of the problem – assuming that’s someone with a high level of influence/power, and you aren’t in a position to change their behavior, Linda may need more support and guidance in navigating that relationship more productively.

  23. MassMatt*

    “her two former supervisors, who are now the highest level staff at our company, and even though both of them have spoken to me quite a bit about “how Linda can be,” I learned she has never received feedback during her 15+ years here about this seemingly well-acknowledged issue among other staff.”

    This was infuriating to read. I inherited someone on my team who had longstanding problems, and looking back at their reviews (company required 2x/year, both signed off by the person reviewed and their manager) there were NONE for a couple of years and the remainder were obviously dashed off in under a minute, with no mention of the problems.

    There was a similar “we’ll acknowledge this person’s issues solely with raised eyebrows and knowing looks” lack of management that had gone on for years.

    My manager at the time acknowledged that this breakdown occurred long before my arrival and so helped take on the work on the PIP but OMG I was so pissed at these former managers, who were mostly my colleagues.

    1. desk platypus*

      A paper trail is SO important, even if just to consult with what has possibly worked and what is something a person just refuses to address. I detailed in my own post my toxic department with one particularly more abrasive than others coworker. The thing is our department didn’t mandate employee reviews, or throughout the system as a whole. It was impossible to see how everyone’s issues just kept bouncing and feeding into each other. We do them now and part of that is evaluating the exact ways we interact with our team.

  24. Someone Else's Boss*

    I just want to say that it’s great that the LW really took a look at what was happening, whether its been addressed, etc. before simply “yelling” at Linda. I have a direct report who does great work, but holds to boundaries I have asked her to set (not working weekends, for example). Because some others have chosen to break those boundaries in the past, some people she works with insist she’s “difficult.” When pressed for a reason, it’s almost always, “I forgot to do X and needed her to lend me a hand on Sunday.” She’s not supposed to do that! And if I took them at their word that she is difficult, it would be so unfair to her.

  25. Coin_Operated*

    I’ve become an expert at throwing shade at co-workers. I’m an office manager for a non profit, and the last time I got an angry tirade from one of my colleagues on a reply all complaining to all our supervisors and a few board members because he was unable to make a simple copy on our new copier because he thought there were codes on it (there weren’t).

    I replied all back with a video showing how to do the basic copying which was just putting your document in the feeder, then pressing a single button, and signed off “That’s all.”

  26. Bird Lady*

    I was becoming Linda at my last job. After four years of supporting every single team without support from others – and some actually sabotaging my efforts – I was burnt out, running on a short fuse, working ever-extending hours, with more work being put on my plate. Other departments received support, even new staff! The department I ran was considered small but mighty and in no need of additional staff – even though 60% of the organization’s efforts ran through my department.

    One day, as I was about to leave for lunch with my best friend, a colleague ran after us to berate me for requiring her department to proof an invitation before the end of the week. It was Wednesday, and this seemed a reasonable request as it had already gone through a few revisions and this was just one final review. A “just in case” measure. Normally this department wouldn’t even have a say in the invitations, but they had asked for more input under the guise of helping.

    I flat out said that Friday was our drop-dead date to get this to the printers and if she didn’t want to proof the invitation it could either go to the printers as is or it didn’t need to get mailed out at all.

    My friend was shocked! She had never seen me be so short or firm in anything I’ve ever said. It really freaked her out. And you know what, it was just evidence it was time to leave.

    2. Saturday*

      Yeah, when a job starts changing you in a way that makes you unrecognizable to friends, probably time to look at whether it’s time to get out. Glad you were able to move on.

  27. Butterfly Counter*

    In school I made a friend who, on the surface, seemed very aggressive and argumentative. People around her responded negatively to her posture and her volume. The content of her words, however, were perfectly fine. She definitely had her opinions, but she was as reasonable and polite as anyone

    As I got to know her, I discovered she was from a huge family where volume and animation got you acknowledged. She was just using her learned strategy from her upbringing in her education.

    The real issue, I thought, was that she was a woman. Her having vociferous opinions she wasn’t afraid to defend put a lot of people off, both men and women. On top of that, she was incredibly smart, which was also intimidating to others. I have no doubt that people reflected back what they assumed to be aggressive posturing that actually wasn’t there in her words. It’s because of this, I really dislike tone policing. What the “appropriate” tone is varies on one’s sex, race, class, sexual orientation, etc.

    1. RudenessIsRelative*

      Hi, I’m your friend’s twin. I have a naturally loud voice, I talk fast, and I was taught to question everything that seemed slightly off and that it was always okay to ask anything in the service of learning/acquiring knowledge that you may not even need now but may need later (my whole family were educators). I am a native New Yorker and grew up in an environment where it was considered polite to be blunt and fast so as to get out of the way of other busy people and I’d never heard of the concept of personal space until I was in college. I grew up expecting other people to engage, discuss, argue if they disagreed with me and we’d iron out some type of compromise agreement or, depending on the situation, retreat to opposite corners believing each other to be incapable of grasping obvious truth.

      I discovered some people find that intimidating. Some find it rude. I seek out professional environments where such discussions are a feature not a bug. I have learned how to function among people I think use overly flowery language and take forever to get to the point. When I’m tired/sick/stressed/overworked I sometimes revert to what I consider perfectly acceptable behavior some people don’t like. It is still – at age 52 as of tomorrow – my ingrained norm and preferred mode.

      1. Silver Robin*

        hello, I am the triplet: also NYer, very highly educated in places that emphasized tearing things apart with the floweriest language, and a Model UN staffer so I can speechify at the drop of a hat. I am very intimidating to people and had to really work on reframing how I approach a conversation so folks do not think I am out for their blood.

  28. Delta Delta*

    I’m picking up on the fact that Linda hasn’t gotten any feedback in the 15 years she’s worked there. That’s a huge flag about the company. And it’ll be a big hurdle with Linda, since she’s likely to take it differently than it’s intended; she’ll see sudden feedback as a personal affront. She’ll have a point that nobody’s said anything in 15 years so why start now, or something to that effect. I think OP can certainly go into any feedback by saying that the company dropped the ball by not giving helpful feedback sooner, but here we are and here it is. So, also ask Linda how she would best receive feedback and praise, and ask her for her perspective on things.

  29. Justin D*

    I really like the way Allison answered because I think too often the instinct that managers have is to take sides against the more “odd” person, when actually no one should be acting out.

  30. the quiet quitter strikes again*

    This sounds like a bigger issue than Linda. If no one one spoke to Linda about this in over 15 years it wouldn’t be unreasonable to suspect that the same goes for the HR director(!) and others. I’m concerned that Linda would feel singled out and will push back on that point – and not without cause. There are definitely some red flags here of a generally toxic work culture (a CEO “afraid” of an HR director, who is herself openly rude to employees??? Yikes all around).

    Letter Writer, while you do need to address her part in this, you also say you “can’t exactly promise she [the HR director] will be more cordial.” Linda probably knows it too. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she feels embittered by the suggestion that she is now expected to hold herself to a higher standard than people at the director level in the org. I certainly would.

    In truth I don’t think you can expect *anyone* to be more cordial without a significant culture shift, and your comment on the CEO doesn’t fill me with hope on that front. But I’d reiterate Alison’s excellent advice to hold others to the same standard. To me, that means not only looping in the supervisors of people who act rudely, but also directly intervening to shut down such behavior yourself, right as it happens, and insisting on holding meetings with supervisors and even the CEO to address the behavior if (let’s be honest, when) it continues.

    1. I Have RBF*

      I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she feels embittered by the suggestion that she is now expected to hold herself to a higher standard than people at the director level in the org. I certainly would.

      This.

      I’m kinda on team Linda here, because I see it as a mostly male workplace has been stomping all over her with rudeness and is now pushing back when she gives what she gets. If I were her, it would be “I will stop being direct and blunt when people stop being rude to me. I will try to refrain from being overtly rude, unless they are to me, first.” Seriously, I would be “Why should I be super nice when I work with jerks who feel free to be assholes to me?”

      I’ve been in environments where (mostly male) coworkers got all butthurt that I wasn’t all girly soft-spoken and playing doormat. Sorry, I’m not a living stereotype. You want nicer? Be nicer.

  31. Nasturtium*

    Good luck to you. Our Linda never managed to adjust her behavior for very long, even after it was after it was addressed with her several times over the period of a couple of years. She was not just snarly and rude to her coworkers, she was also snarly and rude to our customers, and we got a lot of complaints. It does need to be addressed, even at this late date, and being new is a good way to start fresh and set expectations. It may be that she is responding in kind to others’ rudeness. It may be that others are responding in kind to her rudeness. It may be that there are multiple people being rude independently of each other, but all you can address is the behavior, not the reasons.

  32. Dandylions*

    I will be honest, this sounds like a cultural problem that you will not be able to fix. If you want to mentor Linda, by all means make an overature, but if you have people much higher up then you and with the same seniority as Linda being just as rude as she is …then it sounds pretty entrenched.

    Plus if people are so lacking in self-awareness and/or anti-Linda that they feel comfortable forwarding you an email to complain about behavior that they themselves started …. I doubt Linda suddenly being professional is going to make a difference.

    This whole saga reminds me of an open thread about two “rude” coworkers. I’ll see if I can’t link it.

  33. Safely Retired*

    It seems quite likely to me that the rudeness of the others is the cumulative result of Linda’s attitude toward others over those 15 years. If someone has always and repeatedly been rude to me, I am less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt. After a while that just becomes the norm.

    1. Dandylions*

      I kind of thought the opposite myself. In my experience, when everyone is rude to someone and then complains when they are treated the same way by the person they are being rude to then bullying is at play.

  34. Free Meerkats*

    Is Linda rude or is Linda direct? Many people see direct as rude, especially from women, and we won’t even talk about regional differences…

    One can be direct without being rude.
    One can be rude without being direct.
    One can be neither.
    One can be both.
    Only one is an effective way to communicate.

    1. ThatOtherClare*

      There’s no way to win with some people. If their definition of rude is “Do I feel hurt?” rather than “Was that an unnecessary thing to say?” then they’ll see anything that causes them discomfort as rude. Add that to the fact that some people feel acute distress every time anyone points out their mistakes, especially if it’s a woman doing so, and you end up with a certain percentage of the population feeling like they’re constantly under attack. The best you can do is not take it personally; by which I mean their way of ‘fighting back’ will be very personal, but they’ll do it to anyone who is direct to them, so it’s not actually personal at all – you’re just the latest human they’ve torn strips off.

  35. Tiger Snake*

    Being the Linda can be so frustrating, because you have no idea what people think you’re doing that’s so terrible. Especially if you’re just matching tone and energy. They never have specific examples. There’s never a “you said X”, there’s only just “people feel” with absolutely no guidance about WHY or what you’re actually expected to do differently.

    1. Reebee*

      I dunno…the last Linda I worked with knew she was a jerk. She just didn’t care. Neither did my boss; “my” Linda knew that, too, and manipulated the hell out of the situation. To whit, whenever I stood up to Linda, she’d whine to anyone who would listen about how “Reebee is being mean again!” She’d even levy a charge of “hostile workplace.” Just bonkers.

      The day I found out my role would eventually manage hers, I searched for a new job and got (my current) one within six months. Linda was poisonous and my manager was intimidated. Yet there my manager stood, holding my letter of resignation, blinking and bewildered about why I was leaving.

      All this is to say that you work with enough Lindas and you come to see they’re usually their own worst enemies, no matter what else exists in the context.

  36. FLuff*

    For folks who need help with email wording. It might make it easier for those who have difficulty with tone in the written form. ::raises hand::

    My boss once called me into his office years ago and told me that only Angry Cat may respond to any email requests with “No.” Are you interested in being part of this project? No.

    He reminded me that I, Fluff, am not Angry Cat. He became a mentor.

  38. Jo*

    Completely agree that there is a double standard for women vs men as to what is acceptable. Women get told not to be so serious, can’t make assertive statements as much

  39. Hydrates all the flasks*

    “The CEO seems afraid of the HR director…”

    Buddy (or Buddette), you are the CEO! You are actually the one person that could put their foot down and immediately stop all of this nonsense. Why do you have an HR *director* that you’re AFRAID of on staff ?????? Again, CEO! Top name on the company masthead! Start cleaning house already, my god. If you want to be CEO, you need to make some uncomfortable decisions sometimes and this is one of those times, it’s not all private jets and creative tax accounting.

    “Scared of the HR director,” biggest crock of nonsense I’ve ever heard in my life, some people have no work ethic or grit these days I swear to god

    2. Ajay*

      The real power structure is often not shown in the organization chart on paper. This is taught in MBA

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