my team has been stealing from the company

by Alison Green on August 12, 2024

A reader writes:

A few days ago, I discovered that at least seven people on my team have been stealing cash across different sites for months. It was deliberate and carefully coordinated and occurred almost daily. They took an average of $30-40 a day so I can’t see how the risk worked out financially after splitting between all of them.

Lost money aside, I am extremely upset. I see these people every day and work closely with them. I have given them emotional support over personal problems and protected jobs during potential layoffs. We regularly socialized outside of work. One of the ringleaders has a son with the same medical condition as my child’s. I went out of my way to get the family in touch with support organizations and get them free legal advice through personal contacts. I’ve advocated for (and received) better remuneration for many of them, even during tough times last year.

There are others who assisted with covering up even if they didn’t financially benefit from the theft, and others who knew but didn’t say anything because they didn’t want to get involved or get their coworkers in trouble.

I’m frantically trying to recruit new staff so we can dismiss the seven (or potentially more) who were involved.

I’ve lost sleep over the sense of betrayal. I feel stupid and gullible. It feels personal.

Given this involves so many people, how do I go about firing them? Do I need to do this all on the same day?

I’m certain there are others directly involved, but we just haven’t got the evidence. I’m not sure what to do about this.

I now feel extremely cynical about trusting or helping people at work. Do I just … not trust or help people now?

Oh no. I’m sorry. That has to feel like a gut punch.

A few things, in no particular order:

* While this feels like a personal betrayal, there’s a decent chance that they didn’t look at it that way. People who steal from employers generally see it as a relatively impersonal crime; they figure they’re stealing from a faceless corporation and it feels entirely different to them than, I don’t know, swiping your wallet or scamming a relative. Obviously this is wrong-headed thinking — they are betraying the trust of a person they work with every day and who has invested in them and worked to ensure they’re treated well. But they might not have looked at it as involving you much at all.

* When someone betrays your trust like this, it’s natural to wonder what you missed and whether you were, as you put it, “stupid and gullible.” But assuming they weren’t leaving obvious clues all over the place, you’re not stupid and gullible to have trusted people who it sounds like you were relatively close to. They’re the ones who broke the social contract, not you.

People who steal money set out to engage in deception; their whole point is make sure you don’t see what they’re doing. Should you have seen something wrong in their characters earlier? Possibly. But prisons are full of people whose friends and family members thought they seemed like lovely people. People are really good at compartmentalizing their behavior.

That said, do you need more checks and balances in place to catch theft? Very possibly! It’s something you should look at rigorously now.

* The logistics of the firings depend on details I don’t have. Ideally you should fire all the people involved ASAP and all at once, as soon as you’re able to, even if it means the rest of the team stretching for a bit to cover the gaps. Even if it’s not large enough to do that, you should look at emergency measures you could take that would allow you to fire them ASAP anyway: can you bring in temps, cut back on non-essential projects, borrow people from other teams in the interim, etc.?

* Related to that, assuming you have HR and/or legal counsel, you should seek and follow their guidance — but you can also make your preferences known. Sometimes HR and lawyers will advise the most conservative course of action but will give you different, better tailored advice if you say, “Actually the outcome I’d prefer is X — is there a way to do that instead, legally and ethically?”

* You didn’t mention pressing charges, but that’s something you should be thinking about as well.

* It’s natural to feel cynical about trusting people now. People intentionally deceived you, and this was a betrayal. It’s okay if you keep yourself at more of a remove as you process this. But the goal should be, in time, to get yourself to a point where you don’t look at everyone you work with as a potential criminal. Your response to this should be about you, not them: be a manager who supports and advocates for employees because that’s who you want to be. But it’s also natural and okay if it takes some processing time to get there.

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  1. JM in DC*

    I just want to stand and applaud this manager. In college I worked at an on-campus job with a similar situation. I complained to the boss, and she said this is how it has always been! I quit that day, going to her boss, and she also did nothing. I couldn’t believe it. Thank you for doing what is right. There will be other colleagues watching you and seeing you doing the right thing.

    1. Funny you should mention*

      To their credit, this manager made some very obvious mistakes (Not having any procedures in place for discovering theft and socializing with your employees are problematic enough on their own; doing them together is almost asking them to exploit you) but appears to have made them from a good place. Hopefully, when they get past seeing this as personal, they can learn how to reduce the chances of this happening in the future.

      1. Green great dragon*

        This seems harsh? Sure, they need to look again at the anti-theft measures, but 6 or 7 trusted employees acting in concert in a cash-rich business could foil measure that would work fine in 99% of companies. And I don’t agree that socialising with employees is always problematic; in many cases it’s encouraged, even paid for by companies and helps build team spirit.

        1. Funny you should mention*

          In any of those cases where it is encouraged, are the managers hanging out with some employees and not others?

            1. Funny you should mention*

              Managers hanging out with some coworkers and not others is problematic for many reasons.

              2. Medusa*

                How? I don’t go to work social events. It doesn’t affect me at all that my colleagues and our managers do.

                1. WheresMyPen*

                  It gives certain coworkers more time with the manager and possibly more advantages or favorable treatment compared to other employees, and could make the manager less objective where those coworkers are concerned. E.g. if Tim and John always go to the pub together after work but Luke doesn’t, John might be more likely to offer Tim advice, opportunities or even promotions compared to Luke, even if he doesn’t realise he’s doing it.

      2. wordswords*

        This is pretty mean-spirited under the circumstances. Where are you getting the idea that there were no procedures in place for discovering theft? It’s entirely possible that there were absolutely procedures, but that they turned out to have some gaps that the employees discovered and exploited (and possibly were only able to exploit because there were several of them working together to do so). It’s also entirely possible that LW isn’t the one who established those procedures in the first place, given the mention of advocating for her employees within a wider organization with multiple sites. We simply don’t know what procedures did or didn’t exist, only that the employees got away with their theft for a good while.

        And socializing with your employees may or may not be a mistake depending on company and industry culture, what kind of socializing and how close, etc, but friendliness — even friendliness that maybe should have had some more boundaries, which we don’t have enough information to know — is not “almost asking for them to exploit you.” What kind of victim-blaming nonsense is that? I agree that more precautions should be put in place for the future, but telling someone who’s already feeling betrayed and beating themself up for having been deceived by people they trusted and wrestling with cynical mistrust for everyone at work that actually, they were pretty much asking for it by socializing with and trusting anyone at work, doesn’t seem especially helpful.

        1. HB*

          Also going to point out that the theft was discovered so they clearly do have some procedures that are working…

          And to piggy back off of wordswords’ point: they were working *together*. Most internal controls rely on the presumption that you *don’t* have a concerted effort by a group of people.

          My guess is this group had enough people in positions to circumvent the controls around cash to complete the theft, but didn’t have anyone high enough in the chain hide it through accounting fraud. In that case the discrepancies would have become fairly obvious the next time anyone tried to reconcile the financials. Further, you can spot a discrepancy a lot faster than you can unwind how it happened and who was involved. Just because the manager only just found out doesn’t mean that the company didn’t start its investigation a lot sooner.

          1. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

            My friend worked at a store and a common scam was giving discounts to friends at the cash register and not “noticing” them slipping things into their purses or bags. Two people in cahoots can rob you blind before you realize it.

            1. WheresMyPen*

              I’ve heard of situations such as a shop having a loyalty card where you collect 10 stamps and get a free item, and a staff member was fraudulently stamping loads of cards full to give to friends to get free stuff. In a big-ish shop that could be hard to spot, and I’m betting there are lots of similar ways to exploit a business.

          2. Jules the 3rd*

            My last employer set procedures so that fraud or embezzlement would take at least three people working together. Their reasoning was that with that many people, it would leak and be discovered. Six is a *lot* of people working together.

      3. Venus*

        Oh good grief, that’s so mean! Being kind to your employees shouldn’t invite them to exploit you. In what culture does kindness get rewarded with exploitation? (so that I know to avoid it)

        1. Worldwalker*

          We definitely have a political faction in the US that considers kindness to be weakness. They also consider rudeness to be “authenticity,” which they value.

        2. Funny you should mention*

          I never said or implied that people shouldn’t be kind. I said that managers shouldn’t socialize with their employees outside of work.

          1. Never Knew I was a Dancer*

            Connecting “manager socializing with their reports” (which on its own is a very normal thing and can be done in healthy and constructive ways) with “Manager put their company at risk for theft by a group of determined and organized employees” is…a stretch.

      4. MigraineMonth*

        That’s a really weird reading of the situation. We don’t know what procedures they had in place, but there are actually very few procedures that are robust against *seven* employees engaging in stealing and *additional* employees helping them. You can have as many auditors as you want, it won’t help if they’ve decided to let people steal. We also don’t have any indication that it was LW’s job to set up those systems.

        Your opinion that managers shouldn’t socialize with their reports seems to be a misunderstanding of the advice not to be *friends* with one’s reports. As long as LW wasn’t being intrusive and was still able to be impartial enough to make tough decisions (such as deciding to fire those that engaged in cheating), socializing isn’t forbidden and many would find it odd to not engage in any small talk with one’s manager.

        Without details, we really don’t know what LW could do to reduce the chances of this happening in the future, but I’m just going to point out that it’s pretty bizarre that it happened even once! I’ve heard of one or two people stealing, but this sounds like an entire confederacy of thieves with supporters! At some point LW needs to find out why some people who knew about the thefts stayed silent. Had they been threatened? Is there a lot of anger towards company HQ?

        1. Funny you should mention*

          “As long as LW wasn’t being intrusive and was still able to be impartial enough to make tough decisions (such as deciding to fire those that engaged in cheating), socializing isn’t forbidden and many would find it odd to not engage in any small talk with one’s manager.”

          We’re not talking “small talk” here. She literally said they socialize outside of work.

          This is exactly why it is a problem when managers do this. Who judges whether the manager is being impartial? Managers will naturally give more leeway to their friends; it’s just human nature. The other employees won’t speak up, because they already see the manager is playing favorites.

          The managers who say, “I’m impartial. That doesn’t apply to me.” are the ones who are most likely to play favorites. And even if they’re not, the perception is there, which is just as bad.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            I thought LW meant small-talk at work get-togethers, but maybe that wasn’t the right interpretation.

          2. Little Lady, Big Stick*

            You seem to be weirdly invested in victim-blaming a manager who’s doing the right thing, based on your fanfiction interpretation of the circumstances detailed here. Why is that?

            1. Funny you should mention*

              Can you point to where I engaged in “fanfiction”?

              And please, unless LW owns the company, they are not a victim here. The employees didn’t steal LW’s money, and, as others have pointed out, they didn’t steal “at” LW.

              1. wordswords*

                She trusted and went to bat for people who were, meanwhile, robbing her company under her nose. Sure, it’s very likely that the employees rationalized to themselves that they weren’t hurting anyone including their manager, or didn’t think twice about how she would feel. But they also engaged in a long-running, collective campaign of deceit about something that she was obligated to stop, and did it to her face while she was working to get that same company to pay them more, bonding with them about shared children’s medical issues, working to protect their jobs (those same jobs she’s now going to have to fire them from with a lot more bridges burned), etc. That’s a heck of a betrayal of trust! She may not have been the underlying reason for the stealing (indeed, I assume she wasn’t), but that doesn’t mean that not doing it “at” her hurts any less, when instead they were using and disregarding her.

                You seem weirdly committed to this narrative of the manager having no right to feel at all upset in a situation where her trust was blatantly betrayed.

                1. Funny you should mention*

                  “Being upset” and “being a victim” are two different things. LW has every right to be upset. It doesn’t make them a victim. If LW had therapy for this, I believe the therapist’s focus would be “Why are you taking this so personally?” rather than, “How can you get past this horrible thing that happened to you?”

                  It’s a lot like the recent LW who was upset that their brother was getting divorced. Upset is rational. Feeling like a victim in the situation is not.

                  I have never said they have “no right to feel at all upset.” I’m saying that I believe it would be beneficial for LW to stop looking at this as a personal attack.

          3. amoeba*

            Well, maybe socialising outside of works was something like after work drinks with the whole team once every three months or whatever. Which is clearly not inappropriate – being close friends or hanging out all the time, sure. But never spending any time at all outside of work is… not necessary to be a good manager! (We actually often do stuff like that – invite your direct reports for lunch or dinner or do stuff like an escape room together, even if it’s not an official company event. It’s nice!)

        2. Humble Schoolmarm*

          I can’t help wondering if there are procedures just because $30-40 (so between $4.25-5.70 each) is so low. Maybe the perpetrators know that anything over, say $50 missing will trigger an investigation where as a lower sum is considered an oops! If I’m right, figuring out a way to close that loophole will help OP.

      5. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Gross. No one has ever asked to be exploited. People who exploit others are the problem. Victims are not the problem. The manager is not the problem here.

        1. La Triviata*

          There’s an old saying that you can’t cheat an honest man – which pops up in reference to con men/con jobs, the theory being that they need someone less than honest to fall into their con.

          Years ago, the non-profit I worked for had a finance director who would pull cash out of the petty cash box and send one of his cronies on staff out to pick up a six-pack of beer for him.

          1. Cthulhu's Librarian*

            Sure, that’s a thing people say, but it’s been pretty thoroughly debunked in this age of phishing and scams.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              If anything, most of those types of scams depend on finding an honest person who thinks they’re helping with a crisis (like the “your grandchild is in jail, send X amount of cash right away” one.)

          2. AcademiaNut*

            Honest but naive people can be really easy to cheat or steal from – they assume everyone is as honest as they are.

            There are certain types of scams, however, that depend on convincing the target that they’re getting something that’s not quite legit, and play on greed. Those tend not to work as well on someone scrupulously honest.

          3. Crooked Bird*

            I honestly never understood what the hell that saying meant. It’s perfectly obvious that you can cheat an honest man. I assumed it was some kind of gross projection, like thinking betrayed spouses “had to know” what their cheaters were doing, or even that victims of certain crimes “wanted it.”

            I guess “you can’t cheat an honest man with a con of the ‘hey, help me steal this money’ type” does have some actual logic, but the original saying’s much too broad in that case.

      6. Lenora Rose*

        Except for one comment about socializing after work, everything she mentions doing with these close employees is either work related (avoating, protecting jobs, getting raises) or within the norm for contacts (giving useful medical and legal contacts regarding a shared experience). And even the socializing very much depends on whether we mean an intense personal group only some employees participate in (ie, why not to do an RPG with coworkers) or a few low key short term activities (coffee shop stop, bar visit) that everyone is invited to and where everyone gets equal access to management.

        1. Lenora Rose*

          Opps, was meant to say RPG with ones employees, not coworkers. I’ve done neither, but one is way more of a no-no than the other.

      7. Artemesia*

        I have two close friends whose businesses were seriously undermined by close friends who worked for them and stole thousands. A professional association I am a member of had a trust long term employee who stole tens of thousands over the years — officers were elected and so counted on her to keep things running. It worked fine for her to steal until we elected a treasurer who actually was an accountant in another life and did a deep dive to ‘understand’ the finances of this struggling organization and discovered she had been robbing it blind. We are supporters of a cultural organization that had a similar embezzlement.

        The theme always is inadequate financial controls. Always assume theft is possible and have practices in place to oversee financial management.

        This must be gut wrenching to discover. I hope you can fire all of them ASAP and scramble to keep things going and absolutely refer them for prosecution and sue them for restitution.

    2. JSPA*

      but when I think of Horzon IT / Post office scandal in the UK, and the countless lives ruined (or even lost) due to prosecutions based on “incontrovertible proof” that turned out to be anything but…or being misinformed by coworkers as a newbie that I was SUPPOSED to take mileage from petty cash for totals of under 6 miles, and ditto parking quarters, as otherwise the administratory time involved would cost more than the payments themselves (and believed it)… there’s something to be said for ALWAYS giving people a chance to explain themselves, and to really, really listen. No matter what the tapes say or show.

      Especially given a tax code that allows C-suite to expense box seats and strippers, I have a hard time getting quite this upset at what sounds not too far from (e.g.) a cleaning team covering parking costs so as to get in & out faster.

      1. blah*

        What does anything you just said have to do with this letter? LW is upset by both the theft AND the breach of trust. LW didn’t mention where the funds their staff stole came from. Their staff probably justified stealing by saying something like, “oh the executives steal from us all the time,” but that still doesn’t make it okay.

        1. Pounce de Lion*

          I took it to mean that JSPA is saying the OP should hear what the 7 suspected thieves have to say. That sometimes people are unfairly accused of financial shenanigans when there is another explanation. The OP did say it seemed like an odd risk to take for so little money.

          Certainly they can and will present their side of the story at the firing.

        2. JSPA*

          1. We don’t know what the proof is (nor should we speculate).

          2. We don’t know who’s intentionally stealing (if anyone) or who’s been misinformed about “how we do things.”

          The LW may be very clear on these subjects (and unable to share the details). But the entire UK postal service chain of command thought, for a decade or more, that there were many score criminal postmasters and postmistresses–and prosecuted them as if they were individually criminal, or part of a conspiracy– Only for it to turn out that the software was incredibly bug-riddled, and was creating nonexistant shortfalls. Some were prosecuted for going into the tills outside of authorized transactions– Only for it to turn out that they had been putting their own money in (sometimes hundreds of dollars!) in a panic at losing their job and being jailed over the shortfalls.

          So yeah, even when you have “obvious” evidence, you still have to confirm… and confirm if it’s intentional criminality or a case of metastatic incomprehension.

          1. commensally*

            Yeah, and if a junior person sees a more senior/more experienced person doing it routinely and openly and is told it’s okay, they will likely come to believe it even if they were uncomfortable to start.

            This is probably verging on fanfiction, but it really sounds from LW’s letter like this wasn’t people operating with complicated secrecy to avoid getting caught, it sounds like something that basically everyone on the team except her knew about, in which case maybe the question isn’t so much “How could they betray me like this?” as “what went wrong with how our management operates that everybody but me knew about something like this?” (It sounds like maybe the team is operating on site with customers and LW isn’t, which would make it even easier for something like this to get normalized without anybody even thinking about LW.)

      2. commensally*

        Yeah, given the amounts of money being listed and also the number of people who didn’t take part but also didn’t report it, this sounds like it might be something more along the lines of “a group of people convinced themselves it was within the rules to take cash out of the till for gas/parking/offsite lunch/etc” than “an organized embezzling ring”.

        LW doesn’t give any details so it’s hard to say, but if it was something like taking cash for work-related expenses that a different employer might have covered routinely, it’s very, very easy for people to convince themselves and others that it’s just how things are done here and everybody knows about it, even if stopping and thinking would make it clear it’s not. LW might still have to fire people, but it’s worth looking past the accountants’ reports of sums not adding up, to what the people involved were telling each other they were doing.

        “I decided independently that it was OK to buy the whole crew lunch with work’s cash” is still poor enough judgement that they need fired, but in terms of what LW needs to do especially with the peripheral people (and how they need to process their feelings about it) it’s very different than “we were systematically embezzling small amounts as part of a sinister criminal ring.”

        1. JSPA*

          Yes! Especially if Old Joe, who has deadpan delivery, told them “why don’t you just do X” as a not- actually- obvious joke. Sometimes work communication is like the children’s game of “telephone.” Except instead of words getting scrambled, it’s about sarcasm / not sarcasm; special situation vs habitual; some one person being seen as trustworthy and in the know…

          “we all believed Austette because she used to be HR, sings in the choir and does tax prep as her side gig”– except Austette is BS personified (or worse).

    3. Female canine*

      Super nice and supportive bosses are seen as patsys by many people. Having dealt with a similar gang of thieves and trying to manage myself, don’t. Go to the poluce, fire.everyone at once, trust absolutely no one. My little group of snakes broke into my house, filed false professional complaints, and tried to destroy my life. Thieves are dangerous. Get them out of your life and business.

      1. JSPA*

        This (sadly) is also very possible. It’s unsafe to assume the best of people, yet unfair to assume the worst. The only way through is to be equally willing to lower the boom, or to offer selective clemency, and know ahead of time what sorts of answers and facts and data will lead to which outcome.

        It can also be very very helpful to have an outside third party collect the facts and responses, so they will be less tailored to one’s own known weak spots, and less influenced by knowing the people and the details of their lives.

  2. Reebee*

    Also, OP, try not to get caught up in the misguided “Are you sure you’re paying them enough? Maybe you’re not, and that’s why they’re stealing” grandstanding that often accompanies discussion on situations like yours. A starving kid or adult stealing a loaf of bread? Completely different; this isn’t that.

    I’m really sorry you’re going through this. It’s hard to not take things personally. But have hope for your future, replacement employees. A ring of theft isn’t common. That said, I hope you do press charges if possible. Let them experience the real consequences of biting the hand that feeds them.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’m unclear why this line of thought is “misguided” — they’re not literally stealing loaves of bread, but the amounts are small enough ($5 per person per day, on average) to *buy* things like food staples. Multiple workers across multiple locations where they handle cash sounds like something like food service, retail, etc. i.e. sectors known for low wages.

      It could be something else entirely, of course! But I don’t think there’s enough in this letter to call concern about wages “grandstanding.”

      1. MsM*

        I’m guessing OP doesn’t actually set the wages, though. If they’re unhappy, they’d be better off unionizing or taking it to higher levels of corporate. Or simply letting OP know they’re unhappy; again, they might not have been able to do anything about raises, but it sounds like they’re willing to work with their team to provide other support where they can.

      2. BuildMeUp*

        1. Reading into the amounts of money per day isn’t really helpful, because stealing small amounts over time is how people get away with stuff like this. It’s just as likely that they purposefully didn’t take larger amounts because they knew it would be easier to hide.

        2. If they’re not being paid enough, there are many, many other options on the list above “put together an organized theft ring to steal money from the company.” Organize to ask for more money/better benefits, get a different job, etc. And none of those other things are illegal!

        1. Meep*

          To your points, a lot of times it is feeling undervalued AND underpaid that leads to petty theft. It is why pens are the #1 stolen office supply. It is “taking back” some of the power you feel like you lack. The amount does not matter.

          1. Reebee*

            I don’t realize I’ve “stolen” a pen from work until I’m at home, looking for something in my purse, and it’s “Oh, I took my work pen home by mistake.” Then I take it back to work.

            Not sure pen-theft is a power grab. Seems a bit dramatic.

            1. Lea*

              Yeah I know enough people who also bring in pens or use free ones from conferences that I feel like unless you’re reselling it that has to be negligible

            2. MigraineMonth*

              It was pretty hilarious when my company’s billionaire CEO went on a rant at our all-staff meeting about how people kept taking and losing the company branded pens, didn’t we know they cost one dollar each and when she went to a restaurant last night they handed her a company-branded pen to sign with. We should all do what she did: only take broken/leaking pens for home use.

              Billionaires: they’re just like my depression-era grandparent!

              2. Worldwalker*

                And I pay good money for imprinted pens with my ITL on them and actively give them away. Am I doing it wrong?

                Seriously, what’s the point of paying to put your advertising on pens if you don’t let anyone else have them???

                2. MigraineMonth*

                  That’s an excellent point that I can’t answer.

                  Then again, this is the same anti-waste crusader who decided to build several multi-story office buildings out of bricks, but decided when they arrived that the bricks were a shade too orange. Even though she couldn’t return them, she still brought different bricks, which is why all the local town’s municipal buildings, including a school and the town hall, are now built with donated orangish brick.

            3. Tau*

              The problem has mostly gone away because I don’t write by hand as much these days, but back when I did I pretty much resigned myself to being a pen redistribution machine, with pens in my vicinity being randomly taken along and dropped off elsewhere. I figured it evened out over time, with roughly equal office pens wandering home with me and home pens finding their way to the office.

              1. Chas*

                Funnily enough I’m also the one who distributes pens and paper towels at my work, but in my case it seems to be because no one else remembers where the new ones are kept, so they wander around the lab looking for one, see mine, and then take it back to their bench instead of getting a new one out. (Leaving me to roll my eyes and head three steps over to the pile of new ones that are free to take.)

            4. Meep*

              Let’s just say I have met some very strange people in my life that they do see it as a power grab (and some that see it as a sin to accidentally take pens home).

            5. Frosty*

              People “steal” pens from work by using stationary closets for their own use. Instead of buying their own, the take home pencils, pens, rulers, staplers etc. It doesn’t add up to a lot of cash for the company but it feels good to the person that is deeply unhappy and feels they are “owed” as much. Dismissing it as dramatic is you not really trying to understand it.

          2. Worldwalker*

            People “steal” pens because they put them in their pockets and forget about them.

            I remember moving 100+ pens from my former boss’s desk drawer back downstairs to the work area. He didn’t have some vested interest in moving all the pens upstairs; he just put them in his shirt pocket when he was downstairs, and noticed them when he was at his desk. After a while of the pens migrating upstairs at a rate of 2-3 per day, the penless people downstairs got annoyed.

            1. LunaLena*

              Yeah, quite often people don’t mean to, it just happens. I used to work at a receptionist desk as a college student, and people would often come up and ask to borrow a pen. After many pen losses, I would ask people to please make sure to return it, as we all-too-frequently ran out of pens and really needed them (this was back in the day when we had to record phone messages by hand in a little log book, so we really did need pens). People would sympathize and ardently promise to return them. Nine out of ten times, and knowing that this was what was likely to happen, I would then watch them walk a little distance away, write down the info they needed, then get stopped by a passing acquaintance for a quick chat, during which they would unconsciously start slipping the pen into a bag or pocket. At that point, I’d loudly say “Excuse me, could I get that pen back please?” and they would bring it back with an apology. They truly didn’t even realize they were doing it.

              You gotta watch pens carefully, lest they escape through a wormhole in space to their native planet, where they can live the pen equivalent of a good life.

          3. J E*

            That’s funny to read in hybrid work times!

            I’ve worked a hybrid role for years (10 years before covid) and certainly no one pays for my home office, printer, electricity, paper, pens, mouse, chair, headset . . . I don’t care (I’m well paid) but don’t even think about calling it theft to take home an office Bic valued at $.0005.

          4. Bl*

            I don’t disagree with your premise but in my experience people steal pens because they forget about them. I stole a lot of generic bics from work entirely on accident, because I needed one in my pocket at all times (writing down notes, signing things) and was running around doing things and forgot to take it out. One of them almost made it into the washing machine once (bullet dodged there).

            These days as a med student my pens get accidentally stolen by my residents, because their pens have been stolen by the attending who wasn’t prepared to need to write anything down during rounds (even though they inevitably have to). Once an attending walked off with my pen and I only got a pen back because of the world’s kindest medical receptionist.

        2. PurpleShark*

          I had my credit card information stolen and over a 3 month period they took small amounts. They purchased music so it was dollars for songs. the final total when it was discovered was over $300. It was only found because we charged at the same time. Little amounts per day can over time add up to large amounts. So I would wholeheartedly agree with your first point.

          1. Heffalump*

            It’s standard procedure for scammers to make small charges to see if you’re paying attention, and if you aren’t, then make bigger ones.

            1. Artemesia*

              I get an alert when our card is used; that’s how I discovered a theft (not of the card itself but of the number which apparently was used to clone a card). It was for like 25 at a Walmart a store I don’t use in a city I have never visited and so I was able to call the company and get it voided and the card replaced. Each of our clone incidents and there ahve been 3 was for a tiny amount — door dash in another state, or small purchase at Walmart — presumably test purchases to make sure the card could be used.

              1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

                I don’t know for sure that my credit card number was stolen (it might have been a mistyped number) but someone tried to buy $2400 worth of…something…at a welding store. (I even called the welding store! No one knew what was going on.) But it was a weird enough transaction that my bank immediately shut down the transaction AND cancelled the card. Fortunately, I had JUST finished grocery shopping. I’m always kind of glad that they do that, but also frustrated at the headache it causes me every time it happens.

                1. FishOutofWater*

                  I appreciate your optimism that it might have been a mistyped number, but with a mistyped number the expiration date, verification code, and billing zip won’t match so the transaction will get refused and bounced back to the purchaser to reenter (I say as someone who has occasionally mistyped).

            2. GythaOgden*

              Yeah, fraud is one of those offences that escalates over time the more someone can get away with it. And it’s not always the people who are at the bottom of the heap who do it; that lady in Illinois (?) who fed her horse-show business from the local government wasn’t exactly poor to start off with, she just overextended herself until she relied too much on siphoning off money from the locality she worked for in her spare time.

          2. Reb*

            I bought my sister takeaway once and forgot to remove my card details. I didn’t find out until months later when I got a text saying my bank was in overdraft. She’d spent over £1000 on takeaways in just three months.

            We figured out that when her default card expired, it decided my card was now the default as the other card in the system. Took her several months to pay me back.

        3. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Of course they have other options? I don’t think anyone here, myself included, is saying “It’s okay to steal from the company if your pay is too low.” What I *am* saying is that I can understand why that might be one of many explanations for what is happening. If you’re short on cash until next pay day, you might be inclined to take $5 here or there to help get you over the line.

          2. Star Trek Nutcase*

            I respectfully disagree with “might be inclined”. Thieft is a hard line to cross. I had years where I seriously scrounged, went hungry, and counted literal pennies until payday. At the time, I worked in an office where every day I received literally hundreds of not thousands in small bills, and where theft would have been possible – certain amounts cited by LW. Not once did
            it occur to be that stealing $5 one day was a choice. I’m not special, theft is simply not a choice (similar to cheating in school, or lying under oath). That any thieving excuse is thought somewhat understandable (mother & diapers; raging inflation) is a sad – our true natures & morals are exposed in such times.

            Hopefully, LW does fire en masse and no effort is made to hide or diminish the guilty parties’ thievery.

            1. Reebee*

              I’d have them taken away in handcuffs. Saw that a time or two in my retail work life and it really had a very powerful effect. It showed how seriously theft was regarded, and I had a lot of respect for that; still do.

            3. Lenora Rose*

              I will give any parent with a hungry child or infant a full pardon for stealing food or diapers or formula; but I WILL condemn a system that makes it an option they have to consider, especially if the store’s own management is stealing from the parents by falsely escalating prices.

            4. MassMatt*

              I think it’s a hard line to cross at first, esp. if you have ethics, but it gets easier over time both because you figure you won’t get caught but also because it becomes less of a transgression and more of an entitlement, as you start to believe your own rationalizations.

              I’ve worked in a few cash businesses and it can be a real challenge to stay on top of theft, both internally and externally.

              1. STAT!*

                “Less of a transgression and more of an entitlement”: describes the thieving mindset perfectly.

          3. Ellis Bell*

            That’s a common justification when people first begin stealing, or when they’ve stolen before but this is a new system to steal from. Regardless of whether they pay it back or not, it’s absolutely still stealing and it’s way more common to see if they get called upon for their justification, and if not, to just not bother paying it back if they think they’re getting away with it. No one starts off fiddling money with multiple zeros, it always starts small.

        4. Falling Diphthong*

          It’s a common enough design for a scam that it was my first thought on noticing repeated deductions for $4.99 from our bank account to a grocer in the next town. Turns out it was my husband buying milk for his tea on his way into work.

          It’s genuinely weird to me to conclude that if seven plus employees are stealing small amounts and covering for each other, the explanation must be “to buy bread” rather than “because that’s the amount other people have established we can get away with taking and not raise any investigation.”

          I will posit that some subset of the employees would have been honest if they believed that everyone around them was honest, and joined in because it felt unfair that other people got away with it.

      3. Hlao-roo*

        The letter-writer said I’ve advocated for (and received) better remuneration for many of them, even during tough times last year. It sounds like this letter-writer did what was in their power to raise wages, so I don’t see how asking “but are you sure you’re paying them enough?” adds to the discussion of this letter.

        There are more responses to the commenter reader below that cover the different motivations for stealing (often not “to buy a loaf of bread to avoid starvation”) and the limits on a manager’s ability to raise wages.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Right, but “I advocated and received better remuneration” doesn’t mean “they are now getting fair, livable wages” is all I’m saying. The LW has done exactly what they should do, and that makes them a better boss than most. When I see someone ask “Are you sure you’re paying them enough?”, I interpret that as “is the company adequately valuing this role?” not “are you, manager, doing enough here” given the limitations managers have in setting wages, as you note.

          1. Hlao-roo*

            Ah, that makes sense. I interpret “Are you sure you’re paying them enough?” as “are you, manager, doing enough here,” and that’s why it feels misguided to me.

            I think there is space for some “is the company adequately valuing this role?” reflection but only after the thieves are fired. As bamcheeks says below, even if the wages are poverty level the company can’t continue to employ people who deliberately stole.

            1. Caramel & Cheddar*

              Oh yeah definitely. These people absolutely need to go, but part of the task going forward will be to figure out a slate of things that will help prevent this from happening again, of which higher wages might be one component.

              1. Reebee*

                But as someone else pointed out, even some rich people are monetary thieves. Wages just don’t seem to be at issue here.

              2. Hydrates all the flasks*

                There are a shocking number of embezzlement (and regular theft) cases where the perpetrator was not in dire straits at any point (BERNIE MADOFF EXHIBIT A).

                A lot of people jump to the fallacy of “why did so-and-so steal/embezzle/shoplift, they’re already rich????” without ever realizing that for the majority of theft/embezzlement cases, it has nothing to do with poverty, low wages, or trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents.

                So I’d argue that we should definitely squash any “are you sure you’re paying them enough OP???? Really sure???????” Accusations especially given the context in the letter about the OP already providing financial assistance for some of the thieves.

                1. Little Lady, Big Stick*

                  I second this. I have both personally and second-hand experienced stories of embezzlement from companies and community funds (treasurers of local homeowners’ associations and Scout operations in particular) by people who were not scraping by. The 20-something who stole tens of thousands of dollars from our small company — and it got by our accountants! — was partially funding his meth habit, but was also just an ***hole and he was never arrested or even made to pay back what he’d embezzled.

                  Too many people believe the sob story of the perpetrator, instead of immediately pressing charges, and it allows that person to go on victimizing other people.

                  Stealing is wrong, y’all.

              3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

                Most people who steal do so because they are thieves and they will steal whatever their pay/wealth if they think they can get away with it

          2. Cmdrshprd*

            But part of the problem is that “I interpret that as “is the company adequately valuing this role?”” the answer can be yes the company can be paying market rate and “adequately valuing the role” but it still may not be a fair/livable wage, because the role in general/society may not be valued at a fair/livable wage.

            If the standard/market rate is $8 hr a company can pay 10/12 an hour, but a fair/livable wage might be $15 an hour. But the company likely may not be able to pay that ($15) because they might go out of business if they tried to charge rates to pay everyone at $15 an hour.

            1. Caramel & Cheddar*

              If you can’t offer a living wage, I’m not sure you deserve to be in business, frankly! But that’s a separate discussion than the one at hand.

              1. WhizWit*

                Agreed at a macro level, but that can only be solved through public policy. At a micro level, individual firms can’t unilaterally decide to pay wages that are far above market-rate without going out of business (unless they have uniquely high margins like big tech). The goal should be to bring “market-rate” up to “livable” across all sectors of the economy.

      4. bamcheeks*

        I don’t think it’s actionable though. Even if these are people being paid a poverty wage which urgently needs to be increased, LW can’t continue to employ people who have stolen from the company on an ongoing, deliberate, organised fashion.

        If this was a case of one person having a moment of weakness, like the AAM guy who ran up a huge bill on his company credit card a few years ago, it might be possible to re-establish trust, put new processes in place and move on. But this is multiple people, on a long-term basis– the trust is completely broken and I can’t imagine that even the most community-focussed, restorative-justice process could fix that.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          Wise to focus on the trust aspect–it’s often not just that the person broke a rule with their actions that affected you, but that you believed them all the times they lied about doing that. Either directly or through omission.

          There’s also a frequent pattern of “I most certainly did NOT…. Oh, you have solid evidence of it? Okay, I did but it was just that ONCE… Oh, you have solid evidence of three times? Okay, but that was ALL… Oh, that was a test and you also know about the Kenny thing? Okay, I lied, but only about those three, and the Kenny thing, and now I am being completely honest and forthright and true and not lying…”

        3. Irish Teacher.*

          Yes, that is my thought too. Somebody who was really desperate because they were underpaid and they realised they couldn’t pay their rent/hadn’t enough to eat and stole in a moment of panic or weakness…yeah, in that case, I could see the fact they were underpaid being relevant and a reason for clemency. But a case where a group of people literally conspired to steal on a regular basis? Even if they are underpaid (and we have no reason to assume that), I don’t think basically honest people react to being underpaid by getting together colleagues and planning ongoing theft.

    3. Also*

      This comment may mean well, but it is misguided at best. The vast majority of people will not risk their job by stealing from their employer unless they see no other way to survive.

      In reality, there are two elephants in the room: one is wages being too low to survive on, and the other is wage theft. The number of workers who steal from employers (and the amount they take) is so small that it is statistically insignificant in comparison to the absolutely enormous number of employers who steal from workers, which conservatively equates to trillions of dollars a year.

      OP, what these employees did isn’t personal. Please don’t take it that way.

  3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    First and foremost, OP, you need to not make this about you. Whatever you did for them in the past. however you treated them, this is business. Which is perhaps a lesson you need to learn. Not, never trust anyone, but don’t confuse business and personal.

    Also despite what Alison says, you need to look over what you have been doing as a manager for these months this was going on. Were you not paying attention because you saw these people as friends rather than people you supervise? It is possible you missed nothing, but you have to double check anyway. Because you are the boss, you cannot consider your reports your friends. Friendly, yes, friends no.

    But yeah fire them all. Discuss with HR the logistics of this. You do not need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not a court of law. You also, if you have not already, need to loop your boss in, including what steps you intend to take as oversight to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

    1. LynnP*

      I was on a PTA board when it was discovered that the treasurer was stealing small amounts of money over a long period of time. It started out $10 or $20 occasionally and then escalated because most of the events were cash. It felt like a personal betrayal because we all lived in the same community but it wasn’t, she originally took some money instead of going to the ATM for cash and intended to put it back and then just didn’t and after the first time it was easier to do it again until it added up to quite a bit.

        1. Anon for this*

          Experimentally I don’t agree. There was a forgotten 20€ note for over half a year in our locker/break room. Someone had lost it and nobody missed it, so it just got pinned in full sight on the board in the hope that the original owner would remember it and take it back.
          Full sight, staff of 25 people plus a big rotating cleaning staff and the random electrician going in and out.
          It was there for over 6 months, and as nobody would take it my – by this time very annoyed – collague shoved it into the next baby shower collection for another coworker.
          So, no. People can be quite honest.

      2. Bruce*

        Small non-profits have enough fraud that anyone on a club board should pay close attention to the treasurer reports. Our swim club was embezzled from by the treasurer to cover her mortgage payments for over a year, she barely avoided jail by tapping all of her relatives to pay it back. The board realized that she was the only one looking at the bank statements, they just took her word for it until checks started to bounce. A club I was president of had a very good and wary treasurer, but we were targeted by scammers several times (using spear-fishing emails that impersonated me, mainly), she always checked with me before issuing a check.

    2. Gatomon*

      Yes, they’re not stealing OP’s money, they’re stealing the companies’ money. It stings because OP trusted them, but the company is the one with the material loss here.

    3. Heffalump*

      IANAL, but I understand that it’s proof beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal law, preponderance of evidence in civil law. You certainly have preponderance of evidence. In any event, as per Pastor Petty Labelle, this isn’t a court of law.

    4. Boof*

      Yea it sounds like LW was doing all the right things and the fact that some of their charges did the wrong thing doesn’t make what LW did wrong; LW as a physician I know there’s some folks who may not do what they say they will, and I still think I’m better off trying to do what I can as much as I reasonably can, I just make sure I’m giving the same level of care to everyone overall and that the problem is not “trust” it’s “safety” and I try to judge any special requests as a “what is safer – to do this or not do it or do it differently”. Similarly reflect on what you did, were there any flags you should have looked at sooner but you allowed yourself to be swayed by personal appeals, if so make sure to have those checks in place now, if not then you did everything right and you caught it when it became clear and now please fire everyone who was clearly involved; and I hate to say it because it can land unevenly but maybe everyone who looked the other way but wasn’t involved enough to fire will see what the consequences are (on their own workload) for doing that…

    5. Beth*

      Agreed. OP, this really isn’t personal. People choose to steal for all kinds of reasons–necessity, greed, the thrill of it–but those reasons aren’t usually about their manager. They’re about the person who’s stealing. Especially when they’re stealing from a company rather than an individual, it’s absolutely impersonal.

      You should take the steps Alison suggests. But those are business actions. For yourself, it might be helpful to spend some time thinking about why this hit you so hard. They stole from the company, not you. Why does it feel so personal? You mention a lot of ways you supported them, but those are either things good managers do (advocating for COL adjustments and merit raises, advocating for your team during layoffs) or separate from your business relationship (connecting over your kids’ medical condition). Yes, it sucks to be a good manager and have your teammates not reciprocate by being good employees. But taking that as a personal betrayal feels like an overreaction to me–one that’s making this much more painful for you than it has to be.

  4. Stuart Foote*

    I’m not sure if the LW owns parts of the company or is a lower level supervisor, but especially if they are the latter it seems pretty important to report this crime to the authorities and get rid of the people involved right away! I’m not sure if this is a situation that rewards feeling bad and taking one’s time getting rid of the perpetrators.

    1. Kes*

      If it’s the latter I would also say they should immediately bring this up to their bosses if they haven’t already. They as well as their HR and legal teams may have thoughts or even processes in place for how to handle this kind of situation, and can help support OP in handling it. But agreed on needing to take action and fire those people asap

  5. S*

    This isn’t a perfect analogy, but as a teacher, I find that cheating on tests goes way down when I put common-sense measures in place to catch the most obvious cheating. Absent those measures, students rationalize: “this guy doesn’t even care if I cheat.” That goes double if there is a perception that cheating is widespread and no one’s getting caught. Who wants to be the only honest sucker?

    In your situation, I foresee things getting better when people see the offenders getting fired, even if you don’t catch everyone. They can’t pretend anymore that you don’t care. And putting some new, visible measures in place to detect theft (again, they don’t have to catch everything) establishes/emphasizes the social norm that theft isn’t acceptable. This can do a lot more work than you might think.

    1. Meep*

      This is a fair one. I actually got so fed-up with my honors English teacher in 10th grade because a kid got caught cheating off his twin sister and the teacher just told him to try cheat off me next time since I am smarter. It got me in gear to the point all my electives were completed by the time I entered college, but it still annoyed the crap out of me.

      1. Cmdrshprd*

        “the teacher just told him to try cheat off me next time since I am smarter.”

        That might have been what the teacher said publicly but that does not mean the teacher didn’t take further action. Similar to employment and probably due to educational privacy records (FERPA?) the teacher probably couldn’t say anything publicly about what actions/consequences the student was facing.

        I had teachers say almost the say thing when they caught someone, if you are going to cheat at least be smart about it and cheat of someone who knows what they are doing. It was 100% said in jest/sarcasm.

        1. Meep*

          I am sure he did, but saying it in front of the whole class is really not appropriate anyway you look at it.

        2. ScruffyInternHerder*

          Its such a frustrating thing, and I understand why tweens and teens (who might not even KNOW about FERPA) see “nothing is happening” and “nobody is saying what happened”. I’ve corrected a few things in my house because “well we don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes, but it is against federal regulations and law to actually TELL you what is going on with another student in many cases, especially when dealing with discipline”. I don’t blame my kid for being frustrated that after being put through the wringer and an investigation over cheating which proved they did not know about it or participate willingly….it sure looks like not a thing happened to the offending party.

          Understand why. Understand the need for privacy. Understand the frustration.

          1. CowWhisperer*

            If your kid is old enough to be investigated for cheating, the kid is plenty old enough to understand that public humiliation isn’t an acceptable punishment.

            Students break rules – including yours. If they can’t deal without knowing the nitty-gritty details of the outcome of a cheating investigation, be sure they can deal with everyone knowing about when they mouthed off to a teacher or was rude to a kid or did less on a group project than they should have. Those are rules, too.

            Most students decide they can deal when they realize that having their bad decisions blasted to other students is miserable.

            1. ScruffyInternHerder*

              The rub with cheating…is that it was someone else and their decisions putting my student into a place where they were somewhat humiliated by having to be involved in an investigation about cheating. Involving another without their willingness is slightly worse than mouthing off to the teacher.

              Again, I understand the frustration on the part of the affected child, and do try to teach what you’re saying, with kindness.

    2. May*

      I quit my last job in large part because of this effect. There was an ingrained attitude at all levels that “everybody cuts corners and breaks policies sometimes, that’s normal” and despite my best efforts I was not able to shift that mindset. Rules are only as real as the effort people put into enforcing them.

      1. Boof*

        Did you work at a certain airline company? D: Seriously glad you moved on from that sort of environment.

    3. Angstrom*

      I’ve seen that referrred to as “Helping honest people stay honest.” Minimize temptation.

      In a perfect world, one could accept expense sheets without receipts and give out petty cash on request, but people who would never think of themselves as criminal are awfully good at rationalizing a bit extra here and there.

      1. I strive to Excel*

        There’s an ongoing and frequent argument as to the benefit of the external audit when it comes to stopping financial fraud, since the vast majority of frauds are caught by either internal audit or internal anonymous tipline. I’ve always wondered if anyone has made the point that companies wouldn’t find it necessary to spend the money to have either the internal auditing department or the internal tipline or any of the automated controls if they didn’t have the presence of the external auditors and the SEC regs hanging over their heads.

        “Lead us not into temptation” sums it up pretty well.

        1. Bruce*

          When the checks started to bounce our swim club board realized that only the treasurer had been looking at the bank statements, so no one knew she’d been paying her mortgage with money she was stealing…

          1. Little Lady, Big Stick*

            This. When you stop having internal oversights. So many people think money is “too complicated to understand” but it’s not, really. It will be really obvious after the fact.

        2. GythaOgden*

          External audits catch other stuff too like the company being hinky with its own books.

          We have a lot of processes at our workplace that are scrutinised by outsiders — not just active stakeholders but firms who audit our procedures, relationships with contractors and working conditions. I’ve heard it called ‘marking our own homework’: we want to avoid being the sole people looking at our accounts or processes not just to catch issues of employee fraud or other malfeasance but to ensure we look good in the eyes of others and can point to people outside the org who know we’re trustworthy. That’s why audits are legally mandated.

          The Enron scandal broke when I was in my first year of a financial accounting (i.e. audit) traineeship. It was a brutal object lesson on the need for respectable external auditing when our Arthur Anderson colleagues never came back to the central Dublin study hall. We made all the snarky comments about shredding when on that kind of duty as first years, but we were all like ‘there but for the grace of God go I’, because none of those trainees we knew went anywhere near the Enron books and weren’t even on the same continent, but they still got hit by the fallout.

    4. Lucy P*

      Back in middle school, one of the teachers kept the their tests papers in a desk drawer, the same drawer that she kept the box of Kleenex in. One student figured it out and would always need a Kleenex on test day. They’d ask for a tissue and take a blank copy of the test at the same time. Then they would be able to share the questions during lunch.

      We also had 2 classes for every grade level. For instance, one group would have history class in the morning and the other in the afternoon. Both groups would get the same test questions. One day, the teacher decided the let everyone in the morning class grade their own tests, right after taking them. The second page of the test was all true/false questions. The correct answer to every question was TRUE. The morning class went to lunch and gave the afternoon class all of the answers.

      So yes, common sense measures would go a long way if they were instituted.

      1. dontbeadork*

        This sort of diffusion of information is why I always made 6 versions of each exam. Question stems would be identical but the responses would be scrambled or very slightly reworded to make a different answer correct. I’d also reorder the questions. Kids were supposed to tell me what test version they had, but if they forgot (and I couldn’t figure it out with the info I had at hand) I would roll a die and that’s the key I graded with.

        1. Gumby*

          Yep, my mom was a math teacher and had 2 versions per class of each test. So if she had 2 Algebra II classes she made 4 test versions. (Helped by the fact that she could draw from previous years so wasn’t starting from absolute scratch on all of those.) And she wouldn’t always distribute them the same way so you couldn’t always count on the person in front of you, or to the right, or catty corner to have the same test as you. It seemed way overboard to me, but it did work. Also she had an administration that took cheating seriously so it never felt like wasted effort.

  6. Sloanicota*

    I agree with the suggestion to fire all of them at the same time, as soon as possible because this is a coordinated thing so they are apparently talking; I’d worry the last person might do a “desperate grab” or escalate once they realize the jig is up. People get weird at that point sometimes. The reason I say “right away” is because I can’t imagine keeping someone around after knowing they operate this way – how could you trust them with anything?

    1. bamcheeks*

      fire all of them at the same time, as soon as possible

      Oh my goodness, this. LW, this is a “walk them out of the building the second you become aware” situation, even if you continue to pay them for 2-3 weeks whilst you gather the evidence to make it final. Suspect operations if you have to! You don’t continue to employ people who are stealing from you.

    2. PotsPansTeapots*

      My first thought was to double-check the access employees have and make sure it’s removed (passwords changed, locks rekeyed, etc.). This isn’t any garden-variety firing; these employees have already shown that they’ll abuse their roles.

    3. Pair of Does*

      Yeah even if you have to shut down for a couple days afterwards (assuming that won’t kill your business too much), do that and hire temps rather than eating to fire them all.

      And yes, you should seriously consider reporting this as well.

    4. el l*

      Agree. The conversations that has to be had with your management and legal is, “I need to fire them yesterday, I can’t take the chance they’ll do it again/worse. How?”

      And if it’s at all possible, for the same reason I’d even fire them together in one meeting. Yes, normally, I’d fire individually for dignity, but don’t give them a chance to talk and steal more. If you have to send the rest of the office home for the day, do that. If you have to hire temps, do that. And so on – just focus on what you have to do.

      Also – the other line you say to management/legal is, “Is there a pathway to telling the other employees it was because of stealing?” I’d try to do this if at all possible. Not just for the message it sends – it’s not a victimless crime or something you’ll get away with – but for what it’s done to you.

      There are few bigger betrayals in office life than what they did. My sympathy.

    5. I Count the Llamas*

      This!! And absolutely do not bring on new people until the old ones are gone!

      I once worked at a place that ended up having an extensive, fairly complex embezzlement scheme run by several employees. They used new people and their lack of knowledge to just dig in deeper and also help cover their tracks. At least two new people were actively recruited, and one of them finally blew the whistle on the whole thing.

      The new employees that had unwittingly been involved were devastated. They seriously questioned their own abilities and at least one felt like they could never recover professionally with that company and quit.

    6. Awkwardness*

      That was the very first thing that came to my mind. Not only trusting them with company tasks, but also putting additional strain on OP in having people around they obviously cannot trust.

  7. Elsewhere*

    Some years ago, a co-worker I respected was fired for taking kickbacks from service providers. Although I wasn’t close to this person, I felt such a gut-kick when this happened! Just so shocked. So, I definitely feel for the letter-writer.

    1. Reebee*

      I had a similar experience years ago when waiting tables. A very popular and very pleasant and kind server – she’d have her own personal wait list at times! – who also bartended got caught making drinks and pocketing the money. It was such a shock to the rest of us. It may as well have been Betty White getting caught robbing a bank!

    2. Dust Bunny*

      We had to fire someone years ago for stealing the cash from library fines. We hardly even collect that many fines–we’re an academic library and most people checked out stuff for the semester and returned it all at once; we had very few late books. It couldn’t have been enough to buy lunch never mind make a real difference in their quality of living. No idea. I guess it was just that there was money and they could get to it?

    3. CowWhisperer*

      My first teaching job ended when it became clear the principal was sending in massively falsified pupil counts to the state for funding; like claiming we had 600 traditional aged students when we had around 100. (We did have a large group of adult students – but they received 1/10 the funding a K-12 student did – so he changed birthdates at first and got increasingly creative over time…)

      I didn’t like or dislike my principal per se – but knowing he was running a several million dollar fraud was disturbing.

      1. Plate of Wings*

        Whoa! Do you know if there were extra consequences because it’s government money? I know nothing about education (or government money) but this sounds like a huge deal.

        1. CowWhisperer*

          Not because it was government money – but the numbers added up into massive fraud fast.

          Schools got around $6,000 per K-12 general education student per year in the early aughts. The 500 extra students were often worth $0 because 1) they graduated, 2) they weren’t attending frequently enough to be counted as an adult participant (called PARS) or 3) they didn’t exist. For every full time PARS, the school got $600 a year – but in reality that $600 came from 10 adults working 1 night a week on their GED. There was also separate funding stream for Adult ELL learners that was mostly grant based. Oh, and the students who came from Job Corp to get a diploma or GED. 500 kids at 6,000 a head gives you 3,000,000 per year. The fact some of them were adults takes it down to 2,940,000 in fraud.

          So… we had a school that had five buildings in different locations with five different student accounting options and the five groups moved about in most of the building. Add in that most of the staff was recent graduates in an ice cold teaching market and you understand why most faculty didn’t think to ask many questions. The few experienced teachers did – and asked them – but those teachers were told that the other programs produced enough income to cover shortfalls in their program. That didn’t make much sense to them because they knew how little the adult programs were reimbursed – but he’d also say we got grants or… yeah.

          He stood trial and took a plea when his lawyer convinced him his “It’s for the kids!” rationale tanked when the staff hired right out of the program started testifying about how he said “We’re all like a family here!” while involving them in a fraud scheme. These were teenage moms from abusive or absentee families who finally had an adult who supported them, cared about their kids and got them a respectable white collar job. They literally loved him – and he was using them to defraud the state.

          The fraud made me mad – but knowing how he picked the most vulnerable people to use as part of the fraud made me sick.

          Also – unlike teachers – he could negotiate his salary. The graph of his salary and the size of the fraud made it damn clear he wasn’t doing it for the kids.

          He spent time in prison. I doubt it bothered him much – but he wrecked his family and an entire school.

  8. I'm A Little Teapot*

    OP, I’m going to get a bit technical here. There’s a lot of research into fraud and how/why it happens. The Association of Certified Fraud Examiners puts out a report regularly, it’s available on their website.

    In order to commit fraud (and this is a form of fraud), you need 3 things: opportunity, pressure, and rationalization. It’s call the fraud triangle, and I learned it in college.

    Being a trusted employee tends to lead to opportunity.
    Having a sick kid tends to lead to pressure.
    Rationalization is individual, but often people who are committing fraud tell themselves they’ll pay it back. They just need to borrow the money for a week, or a month. Whatever the rationalization, frauds often start small and over time grow into much bigger numbers.

    Yes, you need to fire all these people, but you also need to take a look at how this happened and see what can be done to prevent it in future. You can’t prevent all fraud, and the biggest reason is that any controls or double checks can be defeated through collusion. The fact that you have so many involved may mean that your processes are already decent and this only happened due to collusion. Or you may have control gaps big enough for a semi-truck to drive though.

    1. Annie*

      I had been thinking along these lines – check your processes! But I’m A Little Teapot is far more of a domain expert. It does occur to me, though, that the letter indicates that all of these folks are on the same team, working for the same manager, so there could be an opportunity to look at some processes/checks that involve some folks (or some systems) that are external to this team.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Anything is possible. Travelling and going to different sites is automatically going to mean higher risk of fraud. Cash collections or accessibility means higher risk.

        But in order to really evaluate, I’d have to talk to the team and examine documentation to understand the process and therefore the holes in the process. And while this is part of my job, I steer clear of known fraud. There are others who are far more equipped for that.

    2. old curmudgeon*

      I’m A Little Teapot said “Or you may have control gaps big enough for a semi-truck to drive though,” and that was the first thing that jumped off the page at me, too.

      If your org does not have any kind of internal audit functions, this is a screaming wake-up call to get some in place a.s.a.p. You can’t ever block all the possible ways that people can steal from your org, but you can sure as heck plug the big gaping holes in your processes that invite bad actors to take advantage of you.

      A lot of people assume that internal controls just mean that you’re the nasty suspicious type. In fact, strong internal controls are there to PROTECT staff, because if assets go missing when you’ve got strong internal controls, then all the folks who had nothing to do with it can prove that their hands are clean. I resigned from an employer when the owner refused to put internal controls into place “because they’re all like faaaaaamily, they’d never steal” because I knew it was too high-risk a place to work.

      As for the emotional component, I worked on multiple internal fraud audits at an employer back in the 1980s and 1990s, and every single one of them felt like a gut-punch to me. The perpetrators were people I had considered friends, people that I had gone out of my way to help, and the money they took was not only coming out of the company’s pocket, it was coming out of the pockets of all of us other employees whose pay raises were smaller than they should have been because the company lost money to the thieves. I was nursing my second child during one fraud audit, and my milk production plummeted so badly from the stress that I had to switch him to formula. So I completely relate to the sense of betrayal that you are experiencing.

      But the faster you can terminate them all, the better for you, for the company, and for the other employees. Because I can guarantee you that employees who aren’t involved themselves still know what’s happening, and their own actions and reactions will be based on your response to this.

      Good luck, and I hope you’ll let us know how this goes for you.

      1. Plate of Wings*

        Oh no that sounds so stressful! Is it common for people to be auditing those they work with? In my regulated field we can only have external auditors. I don’t really work on the regulations/regulated side of the business, but I know we don’t have anyone employed full time that audits other departments.

        1. a clockwork lemon*

          Most if not all regulated companies are also required to have some sort of internal audit or compliance testing function in addition to external audit. External audits are great for finding issues…after they’ve already happened. The internal control function is supposed to find issues so that by the time your external auditor comes in, you can get brownie points by saying you already know about it and have fixed it/are working on it/have hired a consultant to come fix it for you.

          1. old curmudgeon*

            Or, best of all, a really GREAT internal control means you prevent issues from ever happening in the first place, so there’s no need to say you’re fixing it – it just never happened in the first place.

            It’s tough to create a meaningful set of internal controls that effectively protect both the company and the employees without hampering people in their work. It’s an iterative process, one that has to change over time as new systems are implemented, and as new threats emerge and are identified. It takes time and talent (both of which cost $$$) to come up with that sort of thing, and often companies take the shortsighted view that they’d sooner save a few bucks in the immediate term by foregoing the entire thing. But it’ll come back to bite them.

    3. Ready for the weekend*

      Same. See where maybe there are leaks in your system and how to strengthen it. Also, from a legal standpoint, learn what complications your company can face. And what your local/state or country’s laws are pertaining to this kind of theft.

  9. Marz*

    So I was reading a book and noticed how easily and quickly our brains get into patterns (for one, I kept trying to tap the physical book to love into the next page x.x) especially of a suspicious mindset. i was reading a book about being on a reality show (the bachelor basically so not even like The Mole or The Traitors or something where deceit was engrained) and rewatching the Mentalist, it really set me up to be like, do not trust anyone! I don’t like any of the characters because I’m like, oh they are all sneaky, manipulative snakes.

    but i usually read like lighter romcoms or romances and there I’m like “Jesus Christ just say something, what’s the worst that could happen, open your heart, be vulnerable, you already love them, it’s too late, sure you might get hurt but probably not because they obviously love you but still, you’ll recover. don’t throw away something great because of trauma or fear.”

    and that’s not even in my real life, so just to say, I totally get how this might have a big impact on how you think and it could easily make you mistrustful of everyone, but it really matters and is worth getting to therapy, doing cbt or dbt perhaps, so you don’t get stuck in a place that’s not good for you or your management of new, blameless people.

    1. bamcheeks*

      for one, I kept trying to tap the physical book to love into the next page x.x

      I always find myself confused why my physical book doesn’t have a button that will tell me the time.

      3. MigraineMonth*

        I have to stop myself from reaching for a highlighter before I remember it’s a library book.

      4. Gumby*

        Back in the day I regularly had the impulse to pause real life like I could my TiVo. Like, I missed what happened on the left side of the screen there, let’s rewind a few seconds. Alas, I still have not discovered a way to do this.

      5. I strive to Excel*

        I was drafting an art project on a digital program. On that program you can tap with two fingers to undo and three fingers to redo. Naturally I double-tapped my actual pen and paper project several times. People saw.

  10. Sparkles McFadden*

    LW I am so sorry you are dealing with this. Your top priority is to coordinate with HR and fire all of these people as soon as possible. You may also want to work with whomever necessary to come up with audit processes to see if there are any procedural changes you could make to catch these things more quickly in the future.

    It will be hard for you to trust people moving forward, but please understand that humans project our values onto those around us until we learn otherwise. The people who steal think everyone would be stealing money if they could figure out how. I don’t think any of them think they’re doing anything wrong. They’ve probably roped more people in by saying “The company factors small losses like this into the business” or “They should be paying us more so this is OK.” (I’m sure there will be comments here saying this sort of stuff. Ignore such unhelpful comments.) I guarantee you that the employees who aren’t stealing will be happy to see the firings happen, even if they don’t come to you and say that.

    1. Been There 2*

      I used to write articles for an accounting firm’s client newsletter, one of which was regarding the prevention of employee theft. I don’t have access to it at the moment, but there were 2 critical points: 1) let new employees know that they will be audited randomly on a regular basis [and then make sure to do it]; and 2) make it a company-wide policy that employees must take vacations [since those who do not make auditing more difficult].

      1. Little Lady, Big Stick*

        This is precisely how our company embezzler was caught — he went on vacation, and someone else was looking over the credit card statements.

        1. I Pay Taxes, Too*

          I’ve heard that (in the past?) financial institutions would often have policies that employees had to take one two-week vacation per year. It would give time to discover any patterns associated with specific individuals.

  11. 40 Years In the Hole*

    Sounds like more opportunity than need, given the token amounts: “nobody will miss it” mindset. But it’s not just a random/opportunistic theft by one or two who needed a few bucks for gas or whatever; it’s the ongoing collusion (ie premeditation) between at least 7 employees, which takes it into conspiring to commit a crime territory. Doesn’t matter if it’s $30, $300 or $3M – they planned, coordinated and acted in it.
    Expensive lesson (for all), and I hope your company succeeds in moving forward – and reviewing or installing security checks and balances. Good luck – this is tough.

    1. Czhorat*

      Exactly. If it was $30 once out of petty cash that’s bad, but easier to handwave away as a one time indiscretion. This was both ongoing and premeditated. I rarely say this, but they need to be immediately fired.

  12. Smurfette*

    Sorry OP! I can understand you feeling gutted about this. And you’re in no way at fault for not picking this up.

    I would fire them as soon as you possibly can, and press charges as well (unless there’s a compelling reason not to). Letting them stick around and then leave quietly with no consequences is bad for the morale of your honest employees and sends the wrong message to anyone contemplating fraud or theft against the company.

    I also think that there should be consequences for those employees who knew but kept it to themselves. Maybe something like a written warning. And if this isn’t against company policy, your policies need to be updated.

    1. Been There 2*

      Agree… a coworker of mine had embezzled nearly $70,000 by presenting fake invoices for medical procedures. He was fired but suffered no consequences since he and the grandboss were the same religion, so he pleaded for forgiveness. This married grandboss was also engaged in an affair with a much younger employee, so there may have been some blackmail involved.

  13. CTA*

    I’m curious about the folks who knew but didn’t say anything. What happens to them? Is it recommended they also be fired (it’s unclear from the AAM answer)? Or do they receive a talk/warning/discipline? I ask because LW says those folks didn’t say anything because they didn’t want to get involved/get co-workers in trouble. It’s a rationale that I understand because I grew up in an environment/a time where “snitches get stitches.”

    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      They need to be fired too. You don’t rat out your coworkers if they are five minutes late back from lunch.

      But this is something that has a direct impact on the company and everyone employed by the company. It is 100% something you need to inform your manager about. It is not tattling or snitching. It is being a professional in the workplace.

        1. Statler von Waldorf*

          Morally, perhaps. Legally, no. To legally qualify as an accomplice to a crime, someone must have aided, counseled, commanded, or encouraged the other person in the commission of the crime. Silence doesn’t qualify.

          If the LW is American, this doesn’t really matter, as at-will employment doesn’t care. In Canada it would, you wouldn’t be legally able to fire them without paying severance.

      2. Cmdrshprd*

        One potential wrinkle is how widespread it would make it and how many people you end up having to fire.

        My understanding is:
        1) 7 people actively stole
        2) X people actively covered it up by changing records etc…
        3) X people passively covered it by knowing and not saying anything about it, even if they didn’t actively falsify records

        If the 3rd round makes it so widespread it might not by logistically possible to fire all categories at once without severely hindering the company.

        I would suggest a two round/step process: fire categories 1 & 2 at once, hire their replacements, and then once they have been in the roles for a bit, fire the category 3 employees at once and hire replacements.

        1. Statler von Waldorf*

          Then the question becomes how do you prove what people knew? Or do you just assume that everyone who possible could have known something did?

          I agree that group one needs to go ASAP, and group 2 needs to go as well. I just don’t think that there’s any way that trying to separate group 3 from group 4, the group that legitimately didn’t know anything, doesn’t turn into a witch hunt.

          1. Cmdrshprd*

            “I just don’t think that there’s any way that trying to separate group 3 from group 4, the group that legitimately didn’t know anything, doesn’t turn into a witch hunt.”

            I do think OP/company should tread carefully on trying identify group 3 from 4, but I do think there are ways that the company can identify people who knew but didn’t say anything from those who didn’t know. Document records, security footage etc…

            If it is not clear someone actually knew they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

            1. Statler von Waldorf*

              I fully agree that the benefit of the doubt should be used here. I just think that all of group 3 should receive it. I don’t think it will ever be clear enough to assume that people knew.

              1. Cmdrshprd*

                “I don’t think it will ever be clear enough to assume that people knew.”

                That is a pretty big assumption, there could be video showing Person A observing person B taking money out of the till/cash box, or text messages showing Person A was told/invited to participate in the scheme and they declined, but didn’t report anything.

                It seems that you are saying there is no way to know who knew what, that might end up being the case, but it might not. You are making a judgement without knowing the details.

                IMO if evidence points that Person A likely knew but it is not concrete, I agree give them the benefit of the doubt, but if evidence points that Person A knew or should have known unless they were willfully ignorant then I think they could/should be fired.

                The mob boss does not need to be directly told “remember Joe Smith who was giving us problems well we killed him.” but a “remember Joe Smith who was giving us problems well lets say he is sleeping with the fishes.”

                If mob boss claims they thought it was because his people booked Joe Smith in an underwater hotel, the defies reasonable explanation.

                1. Statler von Waldorf*

                  Yes, I am making an assumption, as we all do when we try to figure out a situation with limited information, but I don’t think my assumption is unreasonable. I am assuming the evidence will be weak with people who didn’t commit any actions, as not doing anything doesn’t leave much in the way of records.

                  Your assumptions that there will be video evidence or incriminating text messages seem far less likely than my assumptions. Even if they existed, how exactly do you plan on getting those possibly incriminating text messages again? Trying to do that seems like a legal nightmare to me, as it’s a violation of several privacy laws in my jurisdiction.

                  For the sake of argument, let’s assume that every employee gave their employer their phone willingly and ignore the legal quagmire. What’s the return on investment of the astronomical amount of time it would take to go though the texting records of every employee? I don’t delete texts, so I have thousands of them going back decades. It would take me hours to read them all. How much would you need to to pay for someone to go through all those texts? How much value is the company getting from this expenditure? Is it more than the cost of what was stolen?

                  I agree that groups 1 and 2 should be fired, but I stand by the opinion that going after group 3 will become a witch hunt and is a poor use of company resources. This is not a moral opinion, this is a practical one.

        2. Sloanicota*

          There’s grey in 3rd round people to me. They may have assumed it was tolerated by the company (kind of an “open secret”) or only saw a small part of the real thing or just figured someone above their paygrade was on it already. I’d believe the 3rd Round people could continue to work there after some sort of culture reset. Humans are very vulnerable to herd thinking; most people saying they would do better are wrong.

      3. Antilles*

        My only hesitation would be whether OP actually knows that these people know or is just assuming they knew. Given the (understandable) level of anger and betrayal in the letter, I could absolutely see this being a case where OP is thinking “they must have known” but actually no they didn’t. Or perhaps they had seen it happen once but it was explained away.
        If as a one-off, I catch a co-worker opening the petty cash drawer and taking $40 and she tells me it’s for “supplies for the office”, I’m not likely to flag that for management or raise a fuss about it. Why? Because that’s a totally reasonable thing that could be within our role. Whether or not the money actually goes to supplies or her pocket is something that management should be checking and verifying receipts for.

        1. Reebee*

          OP says some employees objectively knew. That’s good enough; no need to speculate otherwise.

    2. Kes*

      Yeah I mean if everyone else is involved/aware and seems fine with it, then it may be hard to be the one to speak up. But then you’re just becoming part of the problem. If you know your coworkers are (systematically, even,) stealing from work, you have an obligation to speak up

      1. Statler von Waldorf*

        I firmly reject this obligation you have given me. Here’s why.

        A friend of mine worked for a guy doing his books. His brother also worked for him. She found some financial irregularities that suggested that the owner’s brother was stealing from him. So she brought it to his attention.

        She was fired. She was blamed for the thefts. She was publicly defamed. She didn’t work for YEARS after that went down. Her reputation was only mildly repaired after the two brothers were both charged with fraud. From what I heard they were both in on it, and she was hired to be their patsy and take the fall.

        This is why I so firmly reject your idea that people have an obligation to speak up. Speaking up can have consequences, a fact that many here are ignoring.

        1. HB*

          To piggy back:

          It’s usually really really difficult to detect fraud. If an audit finds it, it’s either because the person committing fraud was really bad at it, or the auditor found it through sheer dumb luck. The *best* way to detect fraud is through an anonymous hotline. I think a lot of people *do* feel an obligation to report things, but if they feel they can’t do it safely, then their instinct for self-preservation is going to override.

          1. HonorBox*

            This reminded me of a story a forensic accountant once told me. He was called in because there was suspected fraud. Side note: He said that if he was being called in, it was because there WAS fraud or embezzlement happening, but no one could come up with the proof. He found nothing in his initial search that provided any sort of proof. It was by sheer happenstance that he talked to a part-time bookkeeper and found out that the head of the business had a company card in their name, with the statement sent to their home. All the bookkeeper saw was the remittance slip, not the detailed statement. Upon requesting those, the embezzlement was right in his face. Simple dumb luck that the bookkeeper popped by the office.

            1. Starbuck*

              Shouldn’t it have been a matter of course to talk to all bookkeeping staff, not just luck?? Like if you’re doing an investigation, that would have to be part of the process – a list of all staff who have financial access.

          2. Bear in the Sky*

            So then, did LW’s workplace have an anonymous hotline?

            If not, they can’t blame the people who didn’t report for not reporting. If there was no way they could report it anonymously, they could reasonably have been afraid to. They might even have reasonably believed that upper management/HR was in on it/condoned it and that they themselves would be retaliated against if they reported anything.

            If they did have one, how anonymous was it really? Was there a workplace culture where people could really count on confidentiality?

            If they do have an anonymous reporting system in place, one thing to look at is how well it is, or isn’t, trusted. If they don’t, that’s an improvement they could make.

        2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

          I’m sorry for your friend, but that’s a real outlier situation. She was hired to be the patsy.

          Alternate version. Your friend knew, but didn’t say anything. When the owner found out the theft and that your friend knew, he fired her and ruined her rep for being an accomplice to theft.

          Just because your friend suffered for doing the right thing doesn’t mean it wasn’t the right thing. Staying silent can also have consequences – hence the talk in the comments about firing those who said nothing. You are ignoring that.

          Real question: have you ever asked your friend if she regrets what she did? Because if it were me, I wouldn’t regret it, despite the shitty outcome.

          1. Orv*

            So what you’re saying is, if you know about theft going on, you should find another job, because whether you report or not you’re probably screwed? ;)

            1. Statler von Waldorf*

              There’s a reason the expression is “don’t shoot the messenger,” not “don’t give the messenger a high-five and a raise.”

          2. Statler von Waldorf*

            Your “alternate version” sounds exactly like the lies he told about her. I’m not interested in playing games where you turn her, an actual victim, into a hypothetical bad guy just for the sake of making a point on the internet.

            I don’t need to ask if she regrets her actions. I know for a fact that she is bitter about it to this very day. I understand why. She tried to do the right thing, and in return, her professional reputation was destroyed by a pair of thieves.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              I think the question isn’t whether she is bitter about what happened to her; of course she deserves to be! She was *hired to be the fall person* and had her reputation ruined. She was victimized, and in my mind that action was worse (and much more personal) than the theft itself.

              Would staying quiet about the embezzlement have protected her, though, given that she was being framed from the beginning? It seems like she was in a real “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation.

          3. I strive to Excel*

            The AICPA, the organization that regulates accountants in the US, does not have an ethical code requiring CPAs to blow the whistle whenever they find fraud. They are encouraged to do so. There are pathways available. But they are not *required* to whistleblow or to quit, because the AICPA recognizes that a lot of people cannot afford the cost of whistleblowing – and that’s a literal cost, the cost of firing/being blacklisted/job hunting etc.

          1. Statler von Waldorf*

            She did land on her feet eventually, and she’s been working again in her field for a while now. She decided to start over by starting her own business using her married name to distance herself from things. She’s currently looking at hiring a part-timer to help her out because she’s so busy, so I’m happy it’s working out for her.

        4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          In this case, firing those who didn’t report makes it clear that the consequences for doing at this employer are worse than the possible consequences for being a “snitch”. It would have been better to make this clear in the handbook, but that can be written in now:
          “employees who steal will face criminal charges. Those who know of theft and don’t report it will be fired for cause”

          1. Orv*

            Next month on “Ask a Manager”: My employer fired me for failing to report a theft I didn’t know about!

      2. Sparkles McFadden*

        I get where you’re coming from…but no. People are not their coworkers keepers. It’s easy to say that everyone should be upstanding and report malfeasance, but doing so often has serious repercussions for the reporter. It’s naive to pretend otherwise.

        I was in a department where 20% of the staff were committing time card fraud. The rest of us only knew this because the others were so brazen about it that they made a schedule for who would put no show overtime on their cards each week so it wouldn’t look suspicious to payroll. I spoke directly to several guys in the fraud group and let them know they were breaking the law by falsifying their time cards. They could be fired and the company could press charges. One guy said “It’s not fraud because the boss told us we could do this.” (What????) Rather than report this directly (because who knows who else thought this was OK), I filed a union grievance stating available overtime wasn’t being posted. During the hearing (where an HR rep was present) my boss argued that the overtime in question wasn’t a violation of the union contract because…the overtime wasn’t real. It was just a way to make sure some people got extra money. The HR rep said “I’m sorry. Are you admitting on record that your staff members are falsifying time card data and you are signing off on that fraudulent information?” When my boss said “Yes” the union rep laughed so hard he almost fell out of his chair.

        There were some consequences (the money was clawed back, schedules got changed) but no one got fired. Not even the boss. The boss made my life hell after that until I finally gave up and moved to another department. Anyone who witnessed what happened to me would probably never report anyone for anything. I also have to admit that I chose the grievance path because it was an indirect way of reporting this, and I had a union rep sitting right next to me in a formal hearing. I have no idea what would have happened had I just gone directly up the food chain, so I probably would not have done so.

        1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          not reporting also has consequences, worse ones. Like maybe being fired, or even being prosecuted if it’s thought you were part of it.

        2. GythaOgden*

          You know that ‘not my brother’s keeper’ is what Cain said when God asked him where Abel was? That is, it’s not the phrase you really want to use when you’re trying to make a point about honest, ethical behaviour.

      3. Humble Schoolmarm*

        I think this is complicated by the possibility that the group 3 employees were hoodwinked by friendly co-workers in much the same way as the OP. When I was in high school, for example, there was a very popular and well-loved teacher (40) who was spending enough time locked in his classroom alone with a minor student (16) that talk spread like wildfire. It was wildly inappropriate and totally illegal where I live but I didn’t report it, nor, to my knowledge, did any of my fellow students (I suspect it came to light two years later after he divorced his partner and started openly dating the student — he left unexpectedly and the school system where I am is a big fan of quit before we fire you). I’m still a bit distressed by all the time I spent saying “Come on, they can’t be doing that! Mr X would never!” when I could see the locked door as well as anyone else, but I liked this teacher, he was nice and 100% appropriate with me and therefore I couldn’t believe he was a creep.
        Now, obviously I didn’t have any duty to report and all I ever saw was the locked door, so it’s different, but it does seem that these people were very good at presenting themselves in a trustworthy way. That can throw people’s perceptions as much as it did for the OP.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      I think this depends to some extent on the specifics. Was pressure put on them to stay quiet? Were they lower in the hierarchy than those involved in the stealing? (I can see, for example, an office cleaner feeling reluctant to report a rainmaker or somebody being afraid to report their direct manager.) Or was it just a “sure, fair play to them for getting away with it. Not my business” sort of thing? Did they have actual evidence/knowledge or did they just suspect? Did they actually help to cover it up or deliberately avoid answering questions or did they just not go to the manager with information? Did they actually know exactly who was involved? Given how widespread this seemed, is it possible they didn’t report it to the LW because they weren’t sure whether the LW was involved themself or not? If they didn’t know how high up this went, I could see them not knowing who to go to.

      I think there’s a wide range of possibilities as to their level of culpability, from them actively avoiding giving any information that could lead to discovery to their being pressurised not to tell by those involved hinting that many of those in management roles were involved too and therefore their having no idea who they could go to. The truth probably lies somewhere between those two extremes and I think a lot depends on where exactly it does fall whether they should be fired as well or given a warning or whether they should be held responsible at all.

    4. Orv*

      So if they had spoken up, would management reward them in any way, or would they just earn the ire of their coworkers? I’m finding I feel like I wouldn’t do anything in a situation like this either, because there’s no upside for me. Growing up, even adults in my life were constantly punishing me for “tattling.”

    5. Elinor*

      Could it be that they were afraid to report because of the high level of collusion? It might have felt “safer” to report if there were just one person stealing.
      If I’d come across fraud so widespread in a team, I’d have wondered whether there was a more senior person tolerating it / deliberately ignoring it, so I mightn’t feel safe reporting it.
      Plus, there might have been kind of tacit intimidation by the fraudsters going on, too.

      It might be a good idea to ensure that a mechanism like an anonymous hotline is available for people to report things like this. You mightn’t get everyone speaking up, but at least make it easier for them to do it. Just make sure that it’s genuinely anonymous.

      1. Observer*

        If I’d come across fraud so widespread in a team, I’d have wondered whether there was a more senior person tolerating it / deliberately ignoring it, so I mightn’t feel safe reporting it.

        LW this is a really crucial point. You need to look at that, as well as what the normal process for reporting is in your company and what happens to people who report.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        This is possibly a system failure where people would have liked a safe way to report thefts. It’s hard to tell, but sometimes when theft is really widespread you get the impression that you’d be the one hounded out for objecting.

      3. Shandra*

        Agree with Observer.

        At a PastEmployer, employee Jack was committing serious ongoing misconduct. Peer colleague Janet, and their dept manager Chris, were both helping cover it up.

        I never knew how they were finally caught. But if someone had found out for sure that Janet was covering for Jack, reporting it to Chris wouldn’t have helped.

        Neither would have skipping a level to Chris’s boss, Stanley. After all three were fired, I heard that Janet and Chris may have had dirt on Stanley. On a separate note, Janet and Chris’s had been getting away with stuff for years.

      4. I Have RBF*

        This.

        I’m a pretty straight arrow. If I discovered that a large portion of my teammates were colluding on theft, I’d wonder how high it went, and would worry about physical retaliation if I said anything and was identified. Anonymous tip line? Yeah. Marching in to my boss to report it, not knowing if they were in on it? Nope.

    6. Boof*

      I say they get to deal with the triple workload for a short while when those actively involved are fired and they have to cover while new people were hired :P
      But I’m sort of assuming it’s a situation where they knew something was wrong but it didn’t seem too major and/or was so widespread that they thought someone must have already reported it; not say, a situation where they literally saw someone bragging about stealing money and gave a high five in return or something.

    7. Broadway Duchess*

      I just don’t see how you can prove the coworkers knew anything. Additionally, while they may have had a moral obligation to speak up, they had no benefit from and were not directly involved in the theft. This is a tough case to make and is only going to highlight the fact that, to whatever degree, management did not have enough of a process in place to discover the thefts and 7 people were able to get away with it for an extended period of time. And no, the process can’t be, “Well, we hope Wakeen will tell us if he thinks someone is stealing!”

    8. Worldwalker*

      An honest person concealing a crime is not an honest person.

      And “snitches get stitches” is a rationalization for choosing the criminals over the victims.

      1. Bear in the Sky*

        *Actively* concealing a crime is dishonest. Simply saying nothing, while not doing anything to actively conceal a crime either, is different.

        Honest people may have honest reasons to say nothing. Like fear of retaliation, belief that they won’t be taken seriously, and everything that’s been mentioned up thread.

      2. I Have RBF*

        It must be nice to live in a world where such moral absolutes hold sway. Most of us live in reality.

        If reporting a crime openly, to someone who may be in on it, might get me harmed, or other retaliation, I’m not going to be that brave. I would start looking for a different job, and then try to figure out how to safely report it. Because “snitches get stitches” (or worse) is reality with a lot of criminals, and I’m the breadwinner for my household.

        My company has an “EthicsPoint” external service, separate from the main web pages, for anonymous and confidential reporting of issues. If I had a concern that I wasn’t sure that my boss could/would handle, that is where I would report it. This service is through Navex. I work in a regulated industry.

        Most of the large organizations where I’ve worked have a similar setup.

        1. Orv*

          I never got “snitches get stitches” growing up, but I did get “don’t tattle,” usually from adults. As a result I never really feel like it’s my job to report petty theft and things like that. The powers-that-be don’t care about it and will punish me for caring; if they want to detect that stuff, that’s their job, not mine.

          1. Humble Schoolmarm*

            It’s really too bad that the the tattling talk comes up when kids have very fixed (and slightly skewed) versions of right and wrong. We talk about tattling for really minor things (to an adults view) like “X is looking at me!!!” and “Y won’t give me a turn.” but it’s the “don’t report misbehaviour” message that seems to end up sticking vs the “is this behaviour actually causing a problem?”.

            That being said, I’m about as law abiding as they come, but it still annoyed me to no end that I got more training at my big box store cashier job on the perks of calling the tip line than I did on actually running the register. I was there as a summer job and barely knew my colleague’s names. I wasn’t about to spend time surveilling them.

      3. MigraineMonth*

        Alison has talked in the past about companies needing to earn trust before employees will go out on a limb to do things that are risky for them but good for the company such as give honest feedback about their managers or give long notice periods.

        This seems to be one of those situations. Ordinarily, I’d say that reporting a peer for theft would be expected conduct, but the involvement of so many people and the potential collusion/blind eye beyond the team points to something rotten in the culture. Unless there’s an anonymous tip line that wasn’t used, people probably assumed that if so many people knew and did nothing that it would be risky to be the person to raise a stink.

  14. Just Here For The Llama Grooming*

    Alison as always is excellent.

    I think it’s important to say that stealing is a THEM problem, not a YOU problem. People are thinking of themselves when they steal: “I need/deserve this” “I don’t make enough money” “I’m only doing this once to get out of this hole” — on and on. There is almost certainly nothing you personally could have done differently that would have prevented this. (there might be an improvement in some procedure to be had. but that’s different)

  15. Governmint Condition*

    If the LW hasn’t informed their superiors about the stealing, they need to do so ASAP, along with the mass firing. Also be ready to answer any possible questions as to how it could have happened even with proper supervision, and how they’ll prevent it from happening again. (In a government job, this would be a really bad position for the supervisor to be in.)

    1. Observer*

      Absolutely.

      Let the upper echelons know and plan to fire them *immediately*. Coordinate with IT and facilities to walk the *all* out the door at once, while cutting off *all* access to any system and site.

  16. reader*

    maybe also look into how much (read: how little) you’re paying employees that they felt the need to steal such small amounts

    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Highly doubt that was the motivator. Some people steal because they can and they think its just a corporation so no big deal.

    2. Stuart Foote*

      Yes, I’m sure these workers stole $5/each a day so they could buy bread for their starving families and this is all the LW’s fault, as opposed to people seeing a chance to steal beer money by betraying their employer’s trust.

      1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

        I know it’s not germane to what the manager should do in this situation, but I am fascinated by the logistics of it- it sounds like the manager knows they’re splitting the money up, but depending on how many sites and the 7 employees, they could easily make a decent amount per person per week (enough for say, a splurge dinner or gas money or fun money). If I came into an extra $30 a week, well, that’d be gas money to and from work or a few extra groceries or maybe a movie.

        Not that that makes it right or okay in any way- I’m definitely not advocating for stealing from an employer.

    3. Venus*

      Stealing from people isn’t related to how much money they make. A lot of rich people are known for taking money from others. You’re shaming the victim.

      1. UKDancer*

        Yeah I used to work at a stately home that ran corporate events and weddings. It was always the people from the most upmarket weddings and most expensive corporate events that took anything that wasn’t nailed down, including loo roll. I mean we used to provide large dishes on each table of Foxes glacier mints and I could see senior executives pouring them into their pockets.

        Honesty isn’t linked to how much money you have.

    5. Reebee*

      Why? Plenty of people aren’t paid enough AND they don’t steal.

      Also, from the letter: “I have given them emotional support over personal problems and protected jobs during potential layoffs…One of the ringleaders has a son with the same medical condition as my child’s. I went out of my way to get the family in touch with support organizations and get them free legal advice through personal contacts. I’ve advocated for (and recevied) better remuneration for many of them, even during tough times last year.”

      And: “There are others who assisted with covering up even if they didn’t financially benefit from the theft…”

      I’d really love to hear the justification for stealing.

      1. Ally McBeal*

        Seriously. I was living tiny-paycheck-to-tiny-paycheck (supplemented by grocery gift cards my mom sent me) for a few years and the only thing I ever stole was the occasional roll of toilet paper. I had access to company money, sometimes being responsible for register reconciliation and putting money in the safe at EOD, and never once did it even occur to me to start embezzling.

      2. Really?*

        “Assisted with covering up” doesn’t get those employees a free ride…they are part of the conspiracy and need to go as well. Sorry you are dealing with this. As commenters above have mentioned, you (or your bosses) need to reexamine your organization’s internal controls.

    6. no problemo*

      Yeah, this is particularly unhelpful and victim-blamey. There’s nothing to suggest here that the employees aren’t paid well – and even if they aren’t, there are plenty of things that employees can do to rectify that (including looking for other jobs) that don’t include stealing.

      Ethical people don’t steal from their organizations, even when they’re paid poorly.

    7. Be Gneiss*

      Can you elaborate on why it would not only be okay for the employees to steal, but it would also be at least partly LW’s fault?

    8. Irish Teacher.*

      There are situations in which I would think that could be a contributary factor, but this doesn’t really seem like one of them. For one thing, it’s too orchastrated. I can see a basically honest person in a desperate situation stealing a large or medium sized amont as a one-off or on irregular occasions – “I just need to cover my rent” – but getting together with a group to steal enough that it gives everybody only about $5 a day? That doesn’t seem like somebody underpaid panicking because they realise they haven’t enough to live on. That sounds more like people doing it because they can.

      1. Goody*

        I mean, 5 bucks a day is $150 a month. That’s the cable bill, or a good chunk of groceries, or 2-3 tanks of gas.

        1. Reebee*

          I’d like to think most people would say to themselves, “If I have to steal from work to pay my cable bill, then I’ll give up cable.”

        2. Ellis Bell*

          That’s kind of the point. It’s organised stealing, the kind that would cover ordinary expenses, not random or desperate stealing to cover something unexpected.

      2. Boof*

        yea there’s the supermarket employee sneaking out a box of diapers stealing, which is still stealing but potentially a move of desperation (or sometimes, they’re a rich klepto; or sometimes they’re a con artist going to resell it and buy narcotics, who knows; people do all kinds of things for all kind of reasons) – but routinely stealing small amounts of money for a long time as a group is not a one time bad decision

      1. Observer*

        Yeah. It’s not for nothing that the most “legendary” thefts / frauds were committed by people with more money than they knew what to do with (even after buying off a whole slew of people in most cases.)

        Then you also get the “middling” fraudsters, and again, by and large they have plenty of money. Although sometimes they are under pressure because of stuff like gambling or drugs. But again, it’s not a matter of them being underpaid.

        Which is all to say that it’s a really high level of ignoring going on here.

      2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        And repeatedly stealing relatively small amounts is how many, many known fraudsters get away with it, and has been for a very long time, because it works: you’re a lot more likely to notice someone wandering off with hundreds or thousands at a time.

        It’s the premise behind the scheme in Office Space, for goodness sake, it’s hardly a new idea.

      3. Ready for the weekend*

        Agreed. In the town next to me, a town employee who made six figures was arrested and charged with stealing another six figures of town budget money. She handled the processing of property tax payments and residents had to come in and show proof of their tax payments amid this investigation.

      1. Meep*

        ^My mom had to deal with a VP who was printing out fake baby formula coupons (he had twins) and then returning the formula for full price. Got Around $60,000 before he was caught. He was paid very well.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        That doesn’t surprise me in the least, given that those with that kind of money are more likely to get away with it. Poor people know they are more likely to end up in prison if they do it.

        1. I Have RBF*

          Poor people know they are more likely to end up in prison if they do it.

          This.

          Rich people can get lawyers to get them off on a technicality, plus they are seldom suspected, so they get away with it frequently.

      3. jasmine*

        To be fair, I don’t think anyone said that poor people are more likely to steal. Just that we should be more understanding if that’s the situation.

        I don’t think that applies to the letter, but I do feel like a few of the comments today go too far in the other direction.

        1. GythaOgden*

          It’s still patronising and infantilising of actual poor people, though. Almost like the flip side of the argument when people fulminate about ‘broken homes’ leading to crime and violence in poor areas.

          There are ways and means to uplift the less well off and improve social welfare without excusing criminal behaviour or demonising people for getting divorced.

      4. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        I think this is important to note. While well-meaning, going to lengths to argue that perhaps all seven of them are so underpaid that they *had* to collude for months to steal small amounts that build up over time—it has the wraparound effect of implying something pretty ugly: that poor people are likely to be thieves, and that thieves are likely to be poor people, because they can’t help it. Soft bigotry of low expectations.

        Which is just not borne out by facts. Much of petty theft is done by the wealthy or at least comfortable, and this kind of theft—collusion with others to gradually steal small amounts over time—is definitely not likely to be done by someone in dire straits. The smallness of each amount does not equal “they just needed some money asap” when it’s compounded over time.

        1. Boof*

          Thank you.. I think that’s what bugs me about the “but maybe they HAD to” line of thinking; besides having shades of victim blaming, I think it gives people on hard times too little credit.

        2. Awkwardness*

          Thank you. I was a bit irritated that this argument came up again and again, but couldn’t put my finger on what was bugging me.

        3. Ellis Bell*

          Yep, it’s like saying that only those dirty poor people could possibly stoop to stealing.

    13. Observer*

      maybe also look into how much (read: how little) you’re paying employees that they felt the need to steal such small amounts

      Absolutely not. For one thing, it is NOT “small amounts”. This stuff adds up very, very quickly.

      For another, it doesn’t matter- this was not a one time “I’m desperate and I don’t get some money something terrible will happen.” The was a well planned, coordinated effort.

      And lastly, there are a lot of other things that they could have done. There are a lot of things that should signal to an employer (assuming the LW even has the ability to set the wages here) that they need to look at wages. Calculated theft is not one of them.

    14. Meep*

      It more comes down to undervalued than underpaid. Stealing office pens is a very common occurrence for that reason.

      I laughed a little at Alison’s example about people not willing to steal from relatives, because I have both an aunt and a brother-in-law who are very happy to steal from family. In the case of my aunt, she has 3 successful brothers and is upset she is not as successful (but cannot hold down a job for more than 4 months without quitting). In my BIL’s case, he has youngest child syndrome and it eats him up inside that his brother (my husband) married into a wealthy family, so he thinks he is entitled to that wealth by literally stealing from his own brother.

      Tl;dr – Money is usually not the main motivator – feeling like you are rightfully owed something is.

    15. jasmine*

      From the letter, it sounds like LW either isn’t in a position to give the employees livable wages, or they are and do give the employees livable wages. They don’t seem like the kind of person who wouldn’t care about their employees being impoverished.

    17. Sparkles McFadden*

      Yes, because, as we all know, rich people NEVER steal. All stealing (sorry “reappropriating”) is purely need-based and so theft should not be considered a crime.

      Non-sarcastically though, this is the kind of thought process people use to justify stealing: “I’m taking coffee money.” “The company can afford this.” “It’s not that much.” “They owe me.” That doesn’t magically make it OK.

    18. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      It’s right in the letter that OP has gone to bat to get them raises. So no maybe about it. This isn’t Les Mis.

      You could maybe also look into learning about the psychology of theft.

    19. Mad Money*

      Agreed. Sounds to me like people aren’t paid enough.

      It’s wild that people are responding like that can’t possibly be true.

  17. Reid*

    If you are not the owner of the company report this ASAP to whomever is above you- your supervisor,HR, anyone and do so via email where it is documented. The longer you sit in this information the more likely you are to be considered part of the problem.

  18. Sharvey007*

    And if you can’t fire immediately or remove them at the same time, please ensure they are not able to continue this theft while you plan.

  19. Ms. Eleanous*

    Unclear how high up in management LW is.
    I would think hiring outside auditors immediately, and possibly a forensic accountant.
    Both will help show you what holes need plugging.
    I would also announce the impending audit.

    1. Observer*

      I would NOT announce the audit – you don’t want them to try to clean up any existing evidence.

    2. Goody*

      I’m not so sure about announcing the audit in advance. I think this depends on how solid the evidence is against the thieves. Giving them a chance to cover their tracks could be bad.

      After the audit is over and the thieves are gone? Absolutely. Someone else made a comment about how transparency in policies against cheating helps to prevent cheating, and I think that’s definitely relevant here.

    3. Calyx*

      Announcing an impending audit in these circumstances sounds like an extremely bad idea. Yes, it could cause a panic, but more likely it would give people chances to hide their tracks and prepare their stories. People can collide on alibis too.

      1. 1LFTW*

        Absolutely, and that’s why I agree with all the commenters who’ve recommended firing all seven of the thieves at once.

    4. Dancing Otter*

      Yes!
      Having spent years in accounting/auditing before shifting to financial information systems, I am astonished nothing was ever noticed in an internal control assessment. Does your company not have audits? Or was that how the fraud was discovered?

      The amounts are not material to the financial statements, one would hope, but every audit I’ve either worked or observed has started with an assessment of internal controls to determine the level of reliance that can be placed on company accounting, and the amount of testing required. Further, is your company not subject to Sarbanes Oxley testing? Your company’s internal controls are in urgent need of review. (Note that I say your company, not you personally.)

      Watching the reactions when you announce an impending audit should be interesting. Popcorn, anyone?

  20. BellaStella*

    LW, I am so sorry you feel badly. Can you fire all of the employees and get a forensic accountant in place to determine damages and criminality, incl next steps? And then hire new people?

  21. Cordelia Vorkosigan*

    This. OP needs to have a meeting with her supervisor, HR, and Legal ASAP to report this. This is the kind of situation where immediate action needs to be taken. You don’t want this to blow back on you.

  22. Observer*

    LW, I want to say that you need to act *today*.

    Inform whoever is higher than you in the hierarchy, as well as HR. And get rid of them *immediately*. Do *not* wait until you can hire replacements.

    Anyone who was actually involved needs to be walked out the door. Anyone who knew and didn’t report? It depends on their role. But if they were in any sort of supervisory role, or had any access to or responsibility for money, I think that they need to go as well. The rest are on notice and on a last chance basis.

  23. Goody*

    Google tells me that the highest felony thresholds in the US are in TX and WI at $2500 (less than 3 full months at $30/day) and as low as $300 in VA, NJ, FL, and MA (ten days!). I’m not wording my search well enough to identify if this is per person or for the entire ring – I keep coming up with info about crackdowns on organized RETAIL theft, aka “smash and grabs” and “push-outs” at grocery stores, Target, etc. – or if each affected site is counted separately. Even if this is still considered a misdemeanor, though, it needs to be addressed quickly.

    I absolutely agree that OP needs to get rid of ALL of the involved parties at the same time. Not knowing the work environment or the overall size of the team, it might possibly be easiest to have a full-team meeting of some sort to get the innocent employees away from desks while desk clean-outs are happening and police are arriving, “break out” into groups where your offenders are together in one group, and have them escorted off. Then discuss as much of the situation as appropriate with the rest of the team, especially how work loads will be adjusted, and bring in temps ASAP to help soften the blow of dropping more than half a dozen people all at one time.

    Good luck, OP!!!

    1. Kesnit*

      Virginia’s felony threshold is $1000. It was $200 when I started in 2017, but has been gradually increased.

  24. Former Retail Lifer*

    I sympathize. I was a manager at a retail store where my co-worker and fellow trusted manager was fired for stealing TONS of stuff over the course of her couple of years there, and two sales associates were fired for helping her do it. She and I were close at work and hung out a few times. She was a star employee and up for a promotion. The two sales associates were among our best employees. The theft was suspected and investigated by our corporate loss prevention department, and the rest of us were clueless until police officers came in and arrested her. I really questioned my judgment for a long time afterward and didn’t feel like I could trust ANYONE at work.

    OP, don’t take it personally. They would have done this whether it was you or someone else in your position.

  25. Observer*

    On a separate note, I think you absolutely need to look at your processes and controls. And that includes training. It boggles my minds that multiple people knew but “didn’t want to get involved”.

    But also, look at your company’s practices around reporting. You may not be in a position to make changes – it’s hard to see how high up you are here. But I have to wonder if people who report find themselves dealing with fallout (eg HR tells the person reported on about the report, and that person retaliates), or see that nothing really happens to the perpetrators.

    Which is another reason you need to act REALLY fast – not even waiting to ind replacements. People need to see just how *seriously* this is being taken.

    1. JustaTech*

      I can sort of understand why people knew but didn’t want to get involved – it can be a company culture thing but it can also be a thing from the culture where the employees grew up.
      Someone upthread mentioned “snitches get stitches”, but there’s also “stick it to the man” and “that’s just how business works” (more common in cases of bribes/kickbacks, which are the way business works in some parts of the world).
      It could be a company culture of shooting the messenger, or of not doing anything when something is reported. Or a very strict hierarchy, where a lower-level person reporting on a higher-level person would simply not be believed (or be reprimanded in some way for reporting a higher-level person).

      So after the initial dust settles from the firing of the actively involved, hopefully the LW can take a serious look at company culture and see how they might sift the “don’t say anything”. Confidential tip line? Very open audits? (I don’t know, I don’t work in a industry that works with cash so I don’t know what the best practices are.)

    2. JustaTech*

      Yes about the people who knew but didn’t want to get involved.
      Even if everyone is from a “snitches get stitches” culture the LW and their company can at least try to build systems for safe reporting (ie, no retaliation) but also a culture of asking questions without just getting shot down (“so, what do we do about really really petty cash?” as an example from above).
      Also, look at how rigid the hierarchy is: if the company culture is to never, ever question the actions of someone 2 levels up from you, well, then that’s part of the problem and you really can’t blame people for not wanting to speak up.

  27. HonorBox*

    OP I’m really sorry. This sucks, and I hope you can give yourself some grace. This isn’t a personal attack as much as people just being jerks.

    As noted above, even if this puts you and others on the team in a tough spot for a short period of time, the offenders need to go ASAP. There will be a gap in coverage, but there are many solutions in the short term. You know those better than I do, so I won’t speculate about what those could be. And walk them all at the same time. Don’t do it in waves. Don’t give opportunity for more to walk out if you wait or give any of the offenders additional time.

    You found out what has been happening, so clearly there’s evidence of what happened and how. Take a look at that. Process that. And if there are opportunities that exist for this type of theft, determine ways that you can plug those holes. It may take some additional oversight from you or other upper level managers. It might be adding some additional security measures.

    And report this to law enforcement. Depending on how long this has been occurring, the amount could be enough for a felony theft charge. That varies by state, but can start as low as $1,000.

  28. IAmUnanimousInThat*

    You really have no choice but to fire them all, immediately, regardless of the impact to the organization. Clearly this has to be (as others have noted) coordinated with legal and HR, but if you *don’t* fire them immediately and they get wind of it, the damage they could do is great – they have already proven they cannot be trusted.

    Normally I would not advocate this, but given these circumstances, if you can, fire them as humiliatingly as possible. Security guards, police there to take a statement (if you are thinking of pressing charges, which would be advisable, but sometimes not possible for internal reasons), perp walk past their colleagues around lunch time, allow them to take one small box of belongings as the security guards parade them through the office. There are likely others who knew about (or suspected) this that you don’t know about and you want to send a message.

    If HR will allow you, fire them with no weeks of additional pay, obviously “ineligible for rehire” for all future references, benefits cut off immediately and (later) a company-wide announcement about “thieves” and and an updated reference to the corporate code of conduct.

    After that, a forensic audit and updates to to the processes that allowed this to happen.

    1. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      No, do not parade them around the office. This will already be distressing enough to the honest employees. Seeing these people intentionally humiliated is not going to help. It may be appropriate for security and/or the police to be there, but do not make a bigger show of it than it has to be.

      1. Orv*

        Agreed. There’s also a balance to be struck here. You want the consequences to seem serious enough that no one else will be tempted. But if you make the consequences seem too severe or disproportionate, people will be less likely to report on other people stealing later.

    2. 653-CXK*

      100% agree. The message should be, “You steal, and these will be the actions we take and the consquences you will pay.” A little humiliation will go a long way, and even your most honest of employees will appreciate the message.

      (Nice “Are You Being Served?” reference from Mrs. Slocomb!)

      1. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

        Absurd. The honest employees are going to be shocked and stunned by this revelation, and perhaps alarmed by the presence of security and/or the police. They’re not going to be sitting there “appreciating the message” while this goes down.

        1. 653-CXK*

          Fair enough.

          We had something similar happen at least 25 years ago…an employee was stealing money from the company, but the police arrested them at home rather than coming into our offices and hauling them out in handcuffs. Then there was the incident where 25+ people or more were fired for doing pot and other drugs…they gathered us around and told us what happened sort of obliquely (they were gathered in a conference room, ‘fessed up, and were led out of the building).

          The lose job/benefits/blacklisted part will be implicit. At least give the people who did this one shred of dignity before they go.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Yeah, I think I’d honestly be considering job searching if a boss did that and I would never even consider stealing, but…it just seems punative and I’d be uncomfortable working in a firm that not only had ongoing stealing but also a boss that seemed to enjoy humiliating people.

    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I wouldn’t deliberately humiliate them, but do call in the police and inform your other employees that you have done so – it’s far more of a deterrent to know they will be arrested and have a criminal record if found stealing rather than merely being fired and moving more easily to a new job.

  29. learnedthehardway*

    Are you in some kind of a retail business (or something similar)? Do you have a “loss prevention” function? If yes, you really need to bring them into this. Same with HR, if your company has an HR function. You should certainly talk with your manager about the situation, before doing anything further – assuming this is a situation where you’re not the business owner. If you are the company owner, I would speak with your lawyer to make sure all your ducks are in a row.

    Obviously, removing these people from the company is a priority, but so is the process by which you do so, in order to protect the company, avoid bad PR (should they collectively decide to smear the company), etc. etc.

    There really should be an HR / loss prevention investigation to ensure you are getting the right people and doing everything the correct way.

  30. Almost Empty Nester*

    In addition to firing these employees right away, the two follow-on actions that needs to happen are reviewing your processes to close whatever audit loop/process failure that enabled the theft, and reviewing your processes to ensure there is a path for the employees who knew but failed to report to be obligated to report. My company has a business conduct code that “obligates” us to report this kind of thing, and while I’m sure there are still those who don’t report it surely makes you feel a heavy responsibility to do so.

    So sorry, OP…just remember they didn’t steal “at” you.

  31. Former Lab Rat*

    Just wanted to point out $30 a day may not seem like much but in one week – say 5 days – that’s $150. Over three months the sum becomes $1800. [If you are a 7 days a week operation the sum jumps to over $2500.] This kind of loss (slow bleed) can add up for any small business and affect the bottom line.

    Maybe they did it to buy coffee, for the thrill, because they needed small sums. Whatever the reason they probably have justified it in their minds. They don’t think of it as stealing from you personally, but as from a faceless business. It’s still theft and sadly you are going to have to fire all of them.

    Next thing is to review your accounting procedures and tighten up how cash totals are reported at the end of each shift/day. Yes, that will be a pain but it should lessen the chance of someone stealing.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      It’s definitely a small amount for the corporation spread out over multiple locations, but it’s a *lot* to be out at the end of every day when you’re balancing your till. LW, does your company not have any kind of procedures about what happens when money is missing over a certain threshold? Or was this amount below that threshold?

      I’m thinking back to when I worked retail years and years ago and if our float was under OR over by like $5, we had to call the assistant manager. It didn’t happen very often, but I assume that if it was happening regularly, an investigation would have been started.

  32. 123*

    I’d also caution to make sure you’ve got proof for every single person you fire and the extent of their involvement to cover your company’s back.

  33. Jellyfish Catcher*

    Embezzlement is pretty common, according to the accountant who tightened a couple financial checkpoints in my small business.
    I called my accountant one day and told him that I was pretty sure I was being embezzled, just enough here and there.
    He asked why I thought that and I told him “I can feel it.”
    His answer: “That is where it so often starts.”
    Don’t downplay your intuition.

    1. Former Lab Rat*

      LOL. Spouse was a CPA, did mostly auditing. My guess is just about every accountant has a story of going into a small business where the owner said: “This is our Bookkeeper Debbie, she’s been here for years and I don’t know what we would do without her”. Yep, a check of the books would show Debbie had been skimming cash for years.

      1. Dr. Doofenshmirtz*

        If I had a nickel for every time I got a bookkeping job where I replaced the old bookkeeper that was stealing from their employer, I’d have three nickels – which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it happened three times.

      2. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

        One of the best comments I’ve read here was a recommendation for watching the documentary All the Queen’s Horses about a woman who embezzled money from the small town that she worked for. It’s a bonkers ride- but you see how it happened and how it kept happening, especially in a small town where people were very trusting and thought they knew each other well.

        I don’t work for a town, but a small business and I could see a business like ours falling prey to someone like that if the right person came along and no one was checking.

        1. Orv*

          Any time a company or government entity only has one financial employee, that’s a bit of a red flag, because you know they’re checking and approving their own work.

          Barings Bank was taken down by a single trader who had been given the authority to both make trades and reconcile his own trades.

          It’s not always practical for a small business to have more than one bookkeeping employee, but the best ones I worked for had regular outside audits.

          1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

            Yeah, we have checks and balances in place so that no one person could get away with TOO much (I’m sure there are ways to work the system- I just am not creative enough to figure them out myself!).

          2. DJ Abbott*

            I remember Barings Bank, I was just getting started in business then. The person who was supposed to be supervising this trader was his wife and IIRC, there was no one else in that branch.

  34. BigLawEx*

    OP please don’t feel bad. You may have made some errors, but you’re not at fault. There’s a podcast I used to listen to where the host would ask people about their first jobs and 95% of the stories were how everyone was engaged in petty theft, some illegal schemes, or a ring. It was eye-opening for me, but more common than we talk about as a ‘polite/civilized’ society.

  35. Walk on the Left Side*

    I want to emphasize what several folks said above about ensuring this is reported to law enforcement. If these people are ever applying in the future for a job where they will have access to money, accounting etc this MUST come up in their background search.

    They can choose to leave this company off their resume, and no one will ever know to call and ask for the reference, to hear that they are ineligible for rehire, and your HR/legal team will almost certainly not allow giving any details on why. The best way to ensure their behavior is known is through law enforcement.

    I tend to think long and hard before I recommend reporting something to the police, but this is definitely a case where future employers of these people deserve to have this discoverable on their record in order to make a fully informed decision.

    Good luck, OP. I hope we hear an update on this one.

  36. Cthulhu's Librarian*

    The math shows pretty quickly how this makes sense – 40 dollars a day is approximately 15 grand a year. Divided 7 ways, that’s still a bit more than two grand each.

    As to justifying the risk, they likely don’t think there is one. If they got called out on the missing cash on any given day, it’s just a small issue, probably solved by paying it back and apologizing; it’s only in aggregate that it seems significant to most people.

    1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I thought this as well. They probably think “petty cash” doesn’t count and they aren’t adding it up over time. The OP doesn’t know how they are dividing up anything or what they’re doing with it. It might be that each night they all go out for a drink after work or order a pizza together — on the house (s/). Maybe to them it’s like stealing food from a communal fridge… it doesn’t count…except that it does.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      Yep. As well as it being less noticeable to take a large sum in small bites over time it also makes an apology/payback possible. Before stealing, people take a minute to think about whether they’re likely to get caught and if there are any checks in place which will spot missing cash. So, they conclude that if they get caught first time they’ll just apologize for it being a one off/petty cash issue and pay the money back. It’s another reason to communicate that money is carefully checked and missing amounts won’t be forgiven.

    3. CowWhisperer*

      Plus, people normalize risk quite rapidly. The first time a person steals $40 they worry. But each time they do it without being caught they start to expect not to get caught.

      That’s the only way (besides grandiose narcissism) that I can figure out how my first principal went from accurate student accounting to over-reporting students by 6x in six years.

      It was literally insane – but it worked until he asked a teenage secretary to forge signatures – and her dad took her to the police.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Good point. Risky gets to be routine quickly. Embezzlement also doesn’t usually start with $40/day… it starts with $2 and works its way up.

        For your principal — they probably had to keep it up otherwise a sudden drop in enrollment would flag attention. Were they pocketing any money or was it all going to fund the school? They could rationalize that if they aren’t putting it in their bank account, it’s fine… it’s going to students where it’s supposed to.

  37. Bitte Meddler*

    I’m an internal auditor and there is a concept called “The Perception of Detection”.

    You can’t plug every single tiny avenue through which someone can commit fraud, but you can put several good controls in place — like reconciling cash transactions on a daily basis — and then institute whistleblower policies through an anonymous toll-free phone number, put up posters highlighting the company’s anti-fraud / anti-theft initiative, install cameras in key areas (whether the feed is actively monitored or not), have yearly training sessions about keeping each other accountable, etc.

    And then, yes, fire anyone who is caught stealing. Press charges, too. People who start small at one company without any real consequences (and I’d argue that being fired isn’t a huge consequence because it’s not terribly difficult to get another job), have a tendency to ramp up their theft over time.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Yes, do press charges and tell the other employees you have done so. This is far more of a deterrent for the future than merely firing for theft, especially if this is a field where employers often can’t/don’t check references for every job.

  38. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    FWIW, I spent four years working in workplace crime insurance, processing claims from employers who carried insurance for this exact situation. While it’s definitely worth investigating whether your detection systems could be stronger, LW, you are certainly not alone in dealing with something like this. I’ve seen a lot of well-run companies (especially mid-sized companies and companies that have grown rapidly) run into this. People who want to steal money from their employers can often get around pretty solid business practices – at least the most solid practices that are realistic and sustainable for a small/mid-sized company to maintain. And, air-tight practices require multiple checks on common business transactions – so it’s not just about the LW failing to catch it, it’s about a team failing to catch it.

    With so much of the team involved, it’s easy to see how common best practices for preventing workplace crime would not have worked in this situation. Like, enforcing a “minimum one week-long vacation a year for anyone working with money” doesn’t work if everyone who might cover for them is also in on the scheme. “Multiple approval layers for expenses” doesn’t work if the multiple approvers are also in on the scheme.

    It’s totally valid to feel betrayed and cynical, but LW – give yourself some grace here. You could have done everything right within what’s realistic for your role and still missed this one.

    1. Observer*

      It’s totally valid to feel betrayed and cynical, but LW – give yourself some grace here. You could have done everything right within what’s realistic for your role and still missed this one.

      I agree. While I do think it’s worth looking at processes and procedures, that does not mean that the LW messed.

    2. I strive to Excel*

      Collusion is one of the hardest problems to deal with in fraud because so many of our controls require a separation of duties. If the people involved in the separation are all in on it, it really makes it hard to be secure.

  39. CityMouse*

    Echoing a lot of comments.

    1) you absolutely cannot wait to hire their replacements. They all need to go ASAP.

    2) you MUST clearly report this up the ladder to every relevant person ASAP if you haven’t or you will almost certainly get fired too.

  40. Bookworm*

    Something for this LW to consider when the company is looking at procedures. A friend of mine used to work for an all cash business. It was a very small takeout restaurant. There was employee theft of cash, security issues with having a lot of cash on the premises, getting it safely to the bank, etc., that the owners decided to begin taking card payments and contactless payments. Eating the card issuer transaction costs was worth doing away with some of the headaches from being cash only. They found most customers were paying with cards rather than cash. The employee theft problem went away and so did the security concerns.

    1. Observer*

      This is a very good point.

      This specific suggestion might not work, but the idea of making changes that indirectly make it harder to steal is a very sound one.

  41. Reebee*

    OP says some employees objectively knew. That’s good enough; no need to speculate otherwise.

  43. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

    Years ago I worked with a married couple who worked together to steal from the company. When it came to light they were both fired same day. They had a young family and now had no jobs and this stain on their professional reputations. Nicest people you could ever hope to meet (or so it seemed.) People have to think very highly of themselves to think they can cook the books and get away with it.

  44. SusieQQ*

    I’m so sorry, OP. :(

    Going off of Allison’s last post, I had a boss one time that basically treated everyone like a criminal. I think in some ways she had good reason to. People had stolen from her before, tried to get away with doing as little work as they possibly could, and were generally unreliable. There were some of us though who legit tried to do a good job and never would have stolen from her, so for us to work like that kind of boss was really demoralizing. I sympathize with your situation so much, just want to caution that sometimes people raise themselves to the bar that you set for them, you know? Bosses who treat everyone like they’re untrustworthy could end up fostering untrustworthy behavior in people who might otherwise conduct themselves better.

  45. Frosty*

    I’m curious to hear follow up on this as well.

    The more I think about it, the more strange the situation seems. OP you state you have proof, and of course I take that at face value, but for 7 people on one team to steal small amounts day after day across multiple locations seems odd.

    For most people, the decision to steal cash from a business is one that is not crossed all that easily. Maybe one person decides to do it regularly because of a personal situation (addiction, family illness etc.). If you had proof that 7 people did it one time over years it sounds more likely (although still shocking).

    For 7 people to transgress that taboo over and over again (all on one team) seems very alarming! Do you think maybe that some of them were receiving the money but weren’t fully understanding where it came from? I’m not sure what that scenario would be, but maybe it was like a “tip payout” situation where one or two people were masterminding it, taking a bigger cut and then disbursing it to the group? They needed the actions/cooperation of multiple people but not all people fully understood what they were doing?

    Ringleader: “Hey guys, we’re going to do payouts differently so at the end of each day I need you to transfer $40 to this account and at the end of the month we’ll pay everyone out”
    Employee 2: “okay sounds good”

    Just pondering…. the situation sounds so outrageous I wonder if there isn’t further sleuthing that needs to happen – both to ensure it doesn’t happen again and to actually determine culpability.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      It’s really not at all uncommon, and just as you have decided that people rarely steal, there are other people who faithfully believe that everyone steals sometimes and that no one is going to pass up on the chance to take money from a business if they could get away with it. The fact that several people in one place were willing to do it is not as surprising as the fact that they felt bold enough to communicate with each other. It sounds like the business operates on trust, and to the wrong person they take the wrong message from that. They don’t receive the message of “I would never steal and therefore neither would someone as nice as you”, the message they receive is “I also know stealing happens, but I’m not invested in checking on it; have at it”. If the business was very trusting, several people received this message. It could also be the case that one or two people recommended several other people from their circle, but that wouldn’t explain the other coworkers’ reluctance to report. On some level they got the memo that the best idea was to condone stealing.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        re “reluctance to report”: many commenters here keep posting not to report infractions if you are not a manager and it doesn’t affect your job. For some people this could extend to not reporting what they see as petty theft if they haven’t totted up the total sums over time.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      I wonder if there could be something like some of the thieves recommending some of the others. Or one of the thieves being in a position of authority which might either allow them to hire other people to help them or might make it easier to be dishonest.

      But even if there wasn’t, culture is a thing and while in a company where nobody is stealing, most people are not going to do so, but if numerous other people are…well, most people still won’t but there will be a reasonable minority who will say, “hey, everybody else is getting away with it. Must be easy” or “well, everybody does it so why should I be the only honest one?” (People who steal or do anything else wrong tend to overestimate how many people do it – how often do we see comments about “everybody does x; it’s just that nobody will admit to it” or “anybody who says they don’t do y is lying?” – so I can easily imagine somebody convincing themselves that 7 people stealing means clearly everybody is.

      And the LW says a lot of people knew so it’s also possible that some of those who were uncomfortable with the situation started job searching or looked for transfers to other teams to avoid a situation where they either had to be complicit or whistleblow.

      Ireland had a very corrupt taoiseach (prime minister) at one point (I was actually amused when somebody mentioning buying islands because that was just what he did) and yeah, some of his cabinet outdid him. Corruption was so ingrained that there is a story about a police officer going into a pub that was open after closing time and being asked by a politician drinking there, “will you have a pint or a transfer?” Partly, it was that he probably deliberately promoted those he knew would be OK with his corruption (he famously declared his successor, “the most cunning, the most devious, the best of them all!”), partly it was that a lot of those who were honest quit either when he was allowed back into the party after being thrown out on being arrested (yes, and not just for corruption!) or when he became leader and partly it was because people figured, “well, if the taoiseach can openly spend three times his annual salary and have people joking about what a ‘chancer’ he is but still continuing to vote for him, why shouldn’t I get a piece of the pie too?”

      Somebody talked above about the triangle of dishonesty and while I can’t remember the exact terms, they were basically motivation, opportunity and rationalisation. A large number of people doing it grants both opportunity – there’s a scam to get in on and clearly the opportunity is there if others are doing it – and rationalisation – “everybody’s doing it, so why shouldn’t I?” So I reckon that is likely to increase the chances of more people getting involved.

  46. Czech Mate*

    Story to make you feel a little better, OP.

    My dad used to be a franchisee for a company that sold electric typewriters (this was like 1980). Dad found out that one of his employees was stealing merchandise and offering to sell it to existing and potential clients at a steep discount. Despite how obviously wrong that is, my dad lost sleep about how he was going to confront this employee and tell him he was fired.

    The fateful day arrives. Dad sits employee down and lays out all of the evidence he has compiled proving that the employee has been stealing from the company.

    Employee leans back in his seat, looks at my dad, and says, “I’m just trying to make a living, Bob.”

    Supposedly, Dad’s business partner had to hold him back to keep him from clobbering the employee.

    Moral of the story: your employees know that what they’re doing is wrong and they chose to do it, anyway. That’s not your fault. It’s frustrating when you’ve given so much of yourself to helping your employees, and it certainly should be a sign that you should take a second look at your hiring practices and your internal checks to prevent theft, but it’s ultimately the fault of your employees, who are being very short-sighted and thinking about “money” rather than “betrayal of personal trust.” And, honestly, when you do eventually confront them about what happened, you (like my dad) may find that you actually don’t feel that bad, after all. I’m sorry this is happening, but good luck!

    1. Cathy*

      This reminds me of something that happened to my Dad! He was General Manager of an organisation that had numerous locations, at least thirty, and each had about a dozen employees. He found out that all of the staff at one location had been stealing cash, small amounts but over time it really added up. Like your Dad (and the OP) he was disappointed, felt betrayed etc. When he went to the location with the HR rep and the Union Rep to interview the employees he started by presenting them with the (incontrovertible) evidence. When he had finished one of them said “Well we were all in on it. You can’t fire all of us!”
      This was the wrong thing to say to my Dad – he fired all of them immediately.

      * This was a long time ago (1960s) and I don’t know how he knew that they were all guilty, but my Dad was a fair man and I took his word for it.

  47. Ellis Bell*

    I’m guessing that your dad, an honest man, assumed the theft was for some desperate reason, or borne of poverty and that’s why he felt bad about firing the guy?

    2. Czech Mate*

      Yes, I think so. I think it’s also easy to question yourself (“Is this a misunderstanding?” “Was I unclear at some point to make this employee think this was okay?” “Is this somehow MY fault?”) in situations like that. His plan had been to lay out all of the evidence and then to give the employee a chance to defend himself. Then they guy just…didn’t deny it and even dug in a little bit.

  48. TuxedoCat*

    Something I’ve not seen addressed yet: before firing everyone, please make sure that you are certain the seven people were actually involved. Please do not fire somebody for fraud on a simple suspicion or on hearsay.
    I was accused of participating in a cheating ring in middle school which I was not part of (and wasn’t aware of), and was suspended three days. What happened was that some student had stolen a test subject and shared it with part of the class. Everyone who had got (near) perfect marks on the test was interrogated, myself included, as I was a very good student prone to getting high grades. I denied cheating and knowing anything about the ring, but the teachers did not believe me, as another girl they had talked to beforehand (and who hated me for stupid middle-school girl reasons) had told her I was involved to get back at me for whatever slight. Fortunately, the incident did not impact my school career but I’m still mad about it and still feel the burning injustice today. (My parents were not the type to contest school matters – the teacher was always right – so I didn’t get much support on that end.)
    All this to say: a stupid incident in middle school is one thing, fraud in an adult job is another, and can torpedo somebody’s career forever. PLEASE be sure of your information before firing the lot.

  49. RedinSC*

    LW, I’d fire everyone involved in the theft ASAP. I do not want to bring in new team members to this team as it is. The folks doing the theft could easily recruit those new members into participating, OR at least normalizing the theft. You need them out before any new person starts here. AND by doing that, you’ll make it clear to the remaining team members that there are standards and consequences, which is a lesson they really, really need.

    Good luck. Sorry you’re dealing with this.

  50. Crencestre*

    Some people are devoid of conscience; they “befriend” their targeted victims, gain their sympathy by finding or pretending to find some point in common (children with the same medical issue) and put on an Oscar-worthy BFF act, all the while planning to use the trust they’ve gained to commit a crime against their victim(s). They feel nothing while plotting and executing this plan – no guilt for their betrayal, no sense that the crime itself would be wrong in ANY context and no remorse for what they’ve done.

    LW, you have been victimized by people like that; I’m so, so sorry, but they were never your friends and they remain a danger to your company. Fire them ASAP; they deserve nothing better. They’ve shown you who they really are; believe them and get rid of them!

  52. Cat Rescuer*

    OP this is not your fault in any way and I’m so sorry this happened. I cannot imagine how it feels to have seven people you trusted doing this under your nose. I was also in a position where I discovered someone I was close to embezzling. It was a huge betrayal, especially after I helped her personally and advocated for her professionally. I never trusted people as much after that and am extra vigilant about theft, but still treat everyone with kindness and respect and assume the best until shown otherwise.

    If you can, fire them all today. Keeping them longer just harms the business financially and harms the morale of employees not involved in the theft. Good luck to you OP. You will bounce back from this.

  53. NurseThis*

    I had a childhood friend who embezzled a half million dollars from the university where she was getting her PhD. It started small but got out of control and then she was in too deep.

    Most theft begins small until the person feels it was a “success”. It needs to be stamped out in a very clear way that sends a message.

    I’m always amazed at this stuff since the company I worked for scrutinized everything to the penny. They’d map your mileage and you’d get a note if you were even a mile out of step with their calculations!

  54. TG*

    I applaud you for being honest – and I wouldn’t take this all in yourself.’please make sure HR and higher ups are involved and everything is documented and / or caught on film. If you fire them all at once you need multiple people in the room and security to score them out. Let HR handle the talking so they don’t personalize it into to you at all. Minimize your involvement and HR should be there to manage their terminations. I’d sit there and not say a word.

  55. ectotherm*

    I deal with money in a field unrelated to money. My boss got burned by someone he trusted and it took more than a decade for him to fully trust me with his anything, understandably so. It’s a huge breach of trust. I’m so sorry you and your boss are dealing with this. It will take time and trust to watch others handle money again but you will get past this and you will be better aimed to know what to look for next time.

    Nerd: I tried to find out all the ways I could reasonably steal from the company without being caught and then put in traps/checks/balances to make it impossible to steal that way. Not sure if that would help in your specific situation, but it really did work for us.

  56. J E*

    OP, I’m so sorry this happened. Betrayal is a personal, painful thing.

    We often try to brush away painful work experiences as “just work,” but you may want to schedule a few sessions with a counselor, therapist, or whatever professional you feel comfortable with to help process this. You asked how to get past this. When faced with a different kind of work betrayal, I worked with a therapist a trusted friend recommended. Having a space to say, “this was so wrong and I’m hurt” was helpful. I think without that acknowledgment I would have been bitter and it would have eventually hurt my work.

    I hope you are able to get legal and logistical advice from HR or legal resources for your company. Be mindful of the safety of you and others in the workplace too.

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