open thread – August 16, 2024

by Alison Green on August 16, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Eire bound*

    Hi all. I’m American married to an Irishman and we’ll be moving to Ireland in about a year and we’re flexible with the exact city. I’d love to continue working in the corporate responsibility/social impact or early talent space but I have no network in Ireland and my partner has not lived there in almost 20 years. Is there an AAM equivalent in Ireland? Are there other sites outside of the regular job boards that can help with networking. I’d love to start networking now so that I’m not starting from scratch once we move. TIA!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know if there’s an AAM equivalent in Ireland. I will say that even though I think the vast majority of participants here are U.S.-based, AAM is an international blog and has readers/commenters from all over, probably including Ireland.

    2. Anon Irish wife*

      I’m also married to an Irishman and made a similar move nearly 20 years ago.

      I had a hard time getting my first job in Ireland and had to work a few contract jobs. The job market is tighter now than it was then, so it’s great you’re thinking ahead.

      I’d start with MeetUp and search for groups in Ireland that might be helpful for networking. I’d also post on the Ireland subreddit to further crowd source ideas.

      Good luck! moving back was one of the best things we ever did.

    3. Lemon.Pepper*

      There isn’t an exact equivalent but Boards.ie is the most popular discussion site for all topics and they have a Work & Jobs subform that’s pretty active. I work in an adjacent field and it’s a big ‘go’ area right now so you should have no problem finding the right role when the time comes. Be aware though (if hubby hasn’t already shared!) that we *love* qualifications and certifications, moreso than the UK for example, so you may struggle if you’re light on those.

      1. Eire bound*

        Oh tell me more! My partner has a bachelor’s degree and I have a bachelor’s and master’s but do you mean other types of qualifications? I’m very open to taking a course when we move so if there are certain courses/certifications that would help me in the corporate responsibility/social impact/ early talent space let me know.

        I think my partner is just as clueless as me about working in Ireland because outside of part-time jobs he had as a student, he’s never worked there.

        1. Lemon.Pepper*

          Those are the qualifications I mean! Much like the US I think we’re very focussed on diplomas, degrees, professional certifications etc. and place less of a value on other types of learning or years of experience. I moved to the UK early in my career and it’s quite different there in that there’s more recognition for ‘time served’ so not having a degree etc. isn’t as much of a barrier as it would be here. I’m not sure if we’re allowed to post specific employers’ names but there’s one very large CSR entity that’s always recruiting, if you didn’t want to go in-house with a company. Keep an eye on the jobs boards :)

    4. Leaver*

      I’d lurk and maybe participate on some of the Irish subreddits to get a more general view. R/Ireland and r/movingtoireland are pretty decent (I say as a lurker).

      And I have to mention, I’m very sorry, but I’m assuming you and your husband have contacts here presently and are aware of the very dire housing situation across the entire country at the moment? I’m hoping you either have wealth, extremely high-paying job(s), or family to stay with. I’m in the middle of leaving the country due to not being able to find a place to live. I really don’t mean to be a downer but I’d be remiss in not stressing that it is BAD here and has been for some years.

      1. Eire bound*

        Yes, we’re aware. It sounds super tough. It did give me some pause initially but we’ll be able to stay with family until we can find our final location, even if it takes a year or so. I lurk on the Reddit forums and a couple Facebook groups a bit but they are very negative-skewing so I’m taking a little break. I’m excited to check out some of the sites listed though!

        I’m sorry that you have to leave over housing, that really sucks :(

    5. Expat Life*

      Check out Internations as well, which is a site geared towards expats. They have some free resources and also a paid membership that gives you more access to meetup events and networking options – might be worthwhile for a year or so until you’re settled. Ireland is amazing (though expensive, as mentioned above). You’ll love it!

    6. Ismis*

      Hey – small thing, but don’t use “Eire”. For one thing, you are missing a fada, and at the very least, it would mark you as being out of touch with a fair few people.

      Best of luck with the move!

      1. I am Irish, but don't you dare kiss me*

        Yeah, I don’t understand it myself but some people have a bee in their bonnet about non-irish people using the word “Eire”. Those ppl are in the minority, very much, but they pop up.

    7. N*

      I need some advice.
      I am a temporal receptionist whose contract ends at the end of the month. My boss wants to keep me but the staff is full (someone needs to quit or be fired in order to hire me), so he recommended me to try luck at certain hotel whose boss is his friend, though he warned me it was just an interview, he promised nothing.
      I don’t know if there was a misunderstanding or what, but apparently the hotel I interviewed with wants me to join them as soon as my current contract ends, I’m the only candidate they have and even already changed the workers’ work hours to accomodate my arrival at the beginning of September!?
      I am getting cold feet (the commutee is really bad, I would work nights, I actually had planned to take some vacation after this temporal job, and I know a coworker is planning his leave), but I am feeling a bit scared about the possibility that my current boss “promised” that I was going to work at the second hotel (I guess assuming I was desperate for another job) and I may burn a bridge with him and/or the second hotel if I refuse the second job now…

  2. Radish Husband*

    Thanks to everyone who responded with excellent info on my last open thread question!

    I left my last job voluntarily for lots of reasons. I am in my fifth month of job hunting and need some advice on what to do differently in my search. I have right at 340 applications in to various roles. I have had 3 interviews, but none got past the second interview. One job had 6(!) interviews before an offer was made, but at least they were up front about it.

    I am a program manager in tech, senior if not director level. I can also do product and project management. I have done each of those roles and have two certifications related to that. I do not have a college degree, but have 20+ years as a software developer and architect in addition to a bit over 6 titled in the roles above.

    Most applications have a “college degree or equivalent experience” requirement. While I have that experience and then some, it doesn’t seem to pan out that way. I suspect there’s also some subtle ageism at play. I have been applying to jobs across industries where I would be able to use my skills and am being as broad and flexible as possible.

    I have an updated resume, a document with a list of jobs with responsibilities along with major accomplishments for the long-form applications, and cover letter templates I customize for each application. I am compiling a list of job requirements and skills that the jobs are listing and then also writing up how I meet those.

    I had a friend reach out this week and advised on that last item above so that I could compile a custom email to send directly to the job posters introducing myself and directly addressing the job requirements. I am using LinkedIn, Zip Recruiter, Indeed, Blind, and a few other job boards.

    I have also reached out to several recruiters, some of which I have established relationships with, and that has borne not fruit so far. Silence, in fact, which is odd. I know it’s a brutally tough market in tech, especially for the roles I’m applying to. And the 100 applications to 1 interview is roughly what others have been telling me. Even though that’s a lot, it makes sense given how many people are applying to one role. I’m not taking the lack of an offer or all the rejections personally, but I also need to improve something or do something differently.

    Is there anything else I should do? Maybe a career coach? A life coach? Some other person to help me shore up the process? I get plenty of ads for people and services, but don’t know how to choose. I would appreciate any advice that will help me stick out from the crowd, minimize any weak points in my “brand” when applying, and get me a job already! Thank you.

    1. CR Heads*

      You may have already done this, but if you suspect ageism you might want to remove some of the older jobs from your resume or LinkedIn if possible.

      1. Radish Husband*

        I only go back about 15 years on my resume, but you’re right, my LinkedIn listes stuff back … nearly 30 years. EEEK!

        Thank you!

    2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      You’re looking for that one weird trick, but I don’t think there is one. It’s a tough market and I think it’s just going to take a while. FWIW, 5 months isn’t that long. (I get that it feels that way, but it’s not.)

      The only thing I might do differently is be less broad and more targeted. Were the 3 interviews related in some way? Were they the same title or field? Maybe only target where you have the most experience and send *fewer* apps in rather than more.

      1. Radish Husband*

        Thank you! Interesting take on it and 2 interviews were in tech, but unrepeated companies or fields. The third was in academia. So really a mixture. I figured a broader approach might be better. But I can see the point about targeting being better.

        I might need to tailor a handful of resumes for the various roles, and target 2 or 3 only.

        This getting a job thing is a lot of work. :)

      2. Lacy LaPlante*

        Agreed, my husband is in tech and it’s a hard time. Companies find it easier to cut open postings than lay off staff (understandably so), so it’s likely that some of the openings you’ve applied to have vanished, rather than you not making the cut.

    3. Friday Hopeful*

      Start networking. Use it as an opportunity to get to know people and ask them if there is anything you can do for them. Note that good networking is not about pushing yourself onto other people but about making relationships with no specific goal except to get to know others. Once you have gotten to know a group of like-minded networkers, then you can reach out and let them know you are open to job referrals (or whatever you might need at the time). I’ve been networking for years and I get referrals for side work and good full time jobs all the time. Actually every job I have ever had except one was the result of “someone thinking of me” when they knew someone who needed my skills. This is an important tool in your box of things to do.

      1. pally*

        Yes to networking! Are there any professional organizations that pertain to the industry(ies) for the jobs you are applying for? If so, you might find out if they have networking events-local to you. Or mid-career mentoring/advice resources.

      2. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

        Yes, depending on where you live, there can be independent networking groups out there (where I live, they have groups for IT Professionals, tech forums, tech alliances, they have educational and social events I attend for networking).

        I’m also narrowing down industries I want to target, lessening the broadness of my application net (I’m going on month 3 since my RIF). Example, I came from fintech, and my skills, like yours are transferrable (project, portfolio, program mgmt). But I am thinking I’m going to avoid things for myself like: federal govt work (clearance needed), education companies, biotech/pharma, utilities and startups. I am looking for adjacent industries (banking, mortgage, credit, etc) as well as companies that may have software and tools that I’ve used at the past (ServiceNow, Atlassian, GitHub, etc). I am inherently more confident pursuing roles in those types of industries/companies than the others that I listed.

        Likely not the most useful advice out there, but I feel your struggle and I’m trying this tactic to help myself focus more deeply vs a broad swath of applications. I wish you all the best, your skills are definitely needed out there!

    4. pally*

      When you say you are using various job boards, I assume you always apply directly to the company website- and not through LinkedIn and the like.
      Don’t trust the “middle man” in getting the resume to the company.

    5. MsSolo (UK)*

      I wouldn’t use a life coach for employment coaching (there’s a whole life coach grift in the employment sector right now that the third season of The Dream goes into) but it might be worth seeing if there’s a coach to help with resilience, because it’s really challenging in tech right now, and it never hurts to get some help facing that. The other thing I’d consider is the beezlebub principle – if you knew you were still going to be sending out 100 applications per interview in three months time, six months, a year etc at what point would you be looking for something else? Obviously, with job hunting there’s a financial limit, but it’s worth knowing what your internal capacity for it is as well, and what related sectors you would and wouldn’t be willing to pivot to.

      (the only other advice I have is look for government jobs – they don’t pay nearly as well but the benefits are better, job security is strong, and they’re usually desperate for tech people because of the aforementioned lack of pay)

    6. Flurry*

      Take ALL dates off your resume prior to the more recent jobs that count. School, university, in my case all jobs pre-career break for children. I ‘gained’ about 10 years that way, because I had kids in my thirties rather than twenties. Actually maybe 20 years, as my career break was 10 years! It genuinely worked for me (although obviously it is upsetting that this discrimination happens).

    7. M2*

      Yes I would send out various resumes and go back max 12-15 years. See if any stick. Apply for some with 10-12 years experience on your resume and write another resume with 15 years back on it.

      I think it’s good you are applying broadly. Tech is tough right now and so many people were laid off. A friend of mine was laid off last summer and still hasn’t been rehired anywhere. I connected him with someone in academia actually he’s unhappy with the salary. Honestly it’s easier to get a job if you have a job and it’s a good title so if he doesn’t take it that is on him.

      Network. Did you network when you had a job? If people reached out to you did you respond? I think networking is an important tool throughout your career because honestly so many roles I know applicants get are through networking. It might get you in front of the hiring manager when HR or AI wouldn’t put you through.

      You said you diversified your applications but did you also do that through role? Apply to senior roles but also maybe mid level or IC ones.

      Apply early. Sometimes people get resumes within the first week a post is up and start interviewing. I applied for a role on day 20 a job was posted and the hiring manager replied saying they would have loved to interview me but the next day they had the 2 finalists (!) for in-person interviews so unless both fell through that was it. Something to think about!

    8. H.C.*

      100 apps to 1 interview sounds like a really high ratio to me (tho that might be the norm for tech industry?) – my rule of thumb is 10 applications to 1 interview, 10 interviews to 1 offer… which has been par for course for me so far (though I work in PR/marketing across multiple industries).

      But yeah, my first impression is quality over quantity for selecting relevant openings and honing in your applications to them. Good luck!

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Agree to the ratio thing (I say 12 apps to 1 interview, 7 interviews to 1 offer, but that’s beside the point). And SUPER agree to spending more time on customizing to reflect the things they asked for in the job posting.

    9. Banana Pyjamas*

      If you’re not using LinkedIn to search, I would. I noticed I get more pertinent jobs on LinkedIn, but more importantly they have a feature that will tell you what skills you’re missing. More often than not I have the skills, but used different wording. Ultimately, it’s a short cut to decide what to “customize.”

      The Property Management Institute has a job board, and it’s pretty common for professional education organizations to have job boards specific to their specialty.

    10. c*

      Would getting that college degree help…? It’s possible that’s a place where your resume is getting tossed too. Definitely a lot of work, but there are online degrees that you can power through at your own pace. (I’m currently in WGU’s cybersecurity master’s program, which is like that. Some people with a lot of experience in the field claim to have gotten through it in a couple months.)

    11. AlsoADHD*

      If you think the degree is part of the barrier, have you thought about something like WGU for a competency based degree potentially cheaper? I don’t know much about their Bachelors, but I have two Masters from there, both helpful to me (one paid by my current employer and WGU was a big recommendation from them–they’re well-liked in my field, in both technical and healthcare sectors). I know sometimes people with experience can get through degrees very quickly. The BA/BSs are “longer” because of the requirements for foundational courses (English, math, etc.) but some of those you can test out of through places like Sophia even cheaper. I know one IT Manager who got a BS there in less than 6 months (paid for only 1 term) and I have finished Masters in 6 months and 12 months (1 and 2 terms, and the 2 terms was licensing requirements) in areas I had some expertise in.

      I don’t have any big job advice, but that might not even be that much more than a job coach and might be longer lasting. I think a lot is the market–hopefully, as they cut interest rates, tech comes back some–but if you find a checkbox becomes an issue, getting that degree for the checkbox might help. And it might not be that expensive. WGU (and there are other schools like it) is regionally accredited, so the highest level of accreditation for Bachelors needs, and their Bachelors programs cost ~ $3,500-$4,500 per 6 month term (and you can do as many courses as you can get through in that time; my friend who’s an IT Manager did the whole Cybersecurity degree and the certifications, but he was already an expert in the field and had already pre-prepped for the certs). With your background, you might look at IT degrees as a stretch or something like the Business degree track if the IT degrees are not in your areas of expertise. Your PM certs may reduce classes in some cases (I know the PMP did in the MBA and does in some Bachelors programs, as does the CAPM even).

      1. Grad*

        Seconding WGU. After ~20 years of hiding my half-degree, I earned my BS in 6 months and followed up with my M.Ed. in 7 more months. My employer paid for both. Best decision
        I ever made.

    12. Det. Amy Santiago*

      I work in Government Contracting and there are always so many openings for project and program managers. Have you looked at Gov Con? Also, let your network know you’re looking. A solid recommendation or referral goes a long way.

      1. Festively Dressed Earl*

        This. If you’re willing to go through the security-clearance rigamarole, there’s a lot of government contract jobs. Put feelers out to tech staffing agencies that specialize in government contracting, and be ready to do a lot of paperwork.

      2. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        The Government Contracting route will be difficult without the degree, too. Uncle Sam wants 99% of people working on the project to have a degree (or two or three).

    13. Dandylions*

      mid-senior to senior jobs in data analysis and tech is just absolutely brutal right now. I’ve read several reputable sources that say it’s the cohort experiencing the most trouble finding jobs in the US right now

      1. Dandylions*

        Also I forgot to mention that 340 apps in 5 months is a lot. That’s like 2 or 3 per day. 2-3 per week tailored resumes to roles that aren’t reposts, in a targeted industry/region/company should net better results.

        If you are willing to work in person that helps. The remote job apps are swamped. My company got over 200 qualified applicants past on to the hiring manager in 1 day of posting.

    14. Ajay*

      The computer program may be rejecting you. Enter a nonsense degree in the program. Explain it in the cover letter. Some for profit universities give a degree for less than $100 in one day. You can try. Computers are not intelligent, as you know more than me.

  3. bee*

    I got promoted about 6 months ago. While I’m happy about the promotion overall (it’s a good next step in my career and gives me exposure to projects that are more senior and technical), I’m really not satisfied with my salary increase which was a little over 6%. Part of my dissatisfaction is that I have a coworker on my team who is at the same level and makes about $12k more than me. When I questioned this, I was told he has a higher salary because he was hired into that level from another company and that he was at a more senior position coming in. They wouldn’t budge on my offer, so I accepted it even though I wasn’t happy with the amount.

    I thought I would come to terms with the discrepancy, but the more time that goes by the more irritated I’m becoming, especially since my coworker and I do essentially the same work.
    I’m now at the point where I’m considering leaving over it, but I can’t decide if I’m being too impulsive. Aside from this issue, I like my job a lot – my manager is wonderful, I like my team, and my company has a lot of nice perks. I’ve had some less than ideal work experiences in the past, so I know that these things aren’t a given. I’m nervous about blowing up an overall pleasant work environment over $12k, but at the same time I’m still really annoyed whenever I think about it too much. Based on our previous discussions around the time of the promotion, I know my company isn’t willing to increase my salary, so I don’t believe bringing it up again would go anywhere. I’m worried that if I do leave and end up somewhere with a bad manager or a dysfunctional team I’ll regret it. Does anyone have any advice on this? Is this sort of pay disparity enough reason to leave a job I’m otherwise happy with?

    1. EMP*

      12k is a lot although whether it’s a reasonable spread within the same salary band kind of depends IMO on the percentage of salary. Like is that 25% of your salary or 5%? 5 seems reasonable, 25 doesn’t. Do you think you could stick it out until the next review cycle and ask about it then?

    2. Radish Husband*

      I have been in this situation before, where I knew a colleague was making more than me for the same job. And we did the same job and our performance was pretty much the same. I asked about it and was rebuffed as well for many of the same weak reasons.

      They way I got around it was to look at my actual salary without worrying about anyone else. In my case, it was enough money to live a decent life, pay th ebills, have a little fun, etc. Sure the extra $12k a year would be nice, but the lack of it wasn’t making me miss car payments, the mortgage, etc. So I decided to stick with it and do the job I was hired to do as well as I could. But I also brought it up to my manager any time there was a review coming up, etc. in order to bolster my case for an increase.

      If you happen to be female and your higher-paid coworker is male, there _might_ be a small chance you can play the discrimination card, but I’d check with an attorney before going down that road. My situation was both being male, but this is worth pointing out.

      1. Nicosloanicota*

        In a similar situation I was able to advocate for an across-the-board assessment of payscale and structure. If it was only two employees they wouldn’t have done anything but tell the lesser-paid employee “too bad, so sad” – but they found all female emails were making less so they did do an adjustment for everyone. It was around the time those new exempt rules came out though, I don’t know if there’s an opportunity otherwise.

      2. Time for Tea*

        “Play the discrimination card” is really offensive. I thought that language had died out with the generation above me. Actual discrimination based on genetic factors outside of individuals capacity to change is real and still ongoing. Diminishing it and minimising it does nothing to help level people up.

    3. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Are you a woman? Because this sounds like a classic gender based pay gap. You could take it to HR with that angle and might get more traction. Alison just published an article about this in June. (I’ll link below)

      Even if not, you should talk with your manager about it if it’s something you would leave over.

      Stop labeling yourself negatively for this. It’s important to you. That’s not wrong, you’re not being impulsive, or greedy, or selfish, or whatever else. It’s valid to leave over this. What if you leave and it’s better and the manager is the best and the team is awesome? What if leads to inaction. Don’t start playing that game.

      1. Cruciatus*

        Sorry to butt into this conversation, but is your name at all a reference to a Moxy Früvous song? If not, King of Spain by them is a fun song and you’ll understand why I’m asking!

      2. Cellbell*

        I love this final paragraph and it makes me want to hire you to follow me around for pep talks as needed! Thank you for this framing.

      1. Sailor Susie*

        How heavily do people weight bonuses as a part of compensation? Obviously earning “$X plus bonus up to 25%” isn’t as good as $1.25X, but how much worse is it?

        Current job pays near market rate but doesn’t do bonuses, which most other jobs in the field do, and there’s no room in budget for raise (I asked.) Trying to decide if I’m missing out on a lot or a little.

    6. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      I left under similar circumstances, boosting my salary far over even what my ask was at the job I left. I did a lot of due diligence and was very picky. That proved quite ideal for the job search. What have you got to lose by looking?

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I agree with this. Don’t quit; start looking. You know how much your current company values you–12K less than your coworker, and they’ve told you that isn’t going to change. There are other jobs out there that would value you more.

        It absolutely cannot hurt to start sending out feelers, before you start believing that you’re worth less everywhere.

    7. Parenthesis Guy*

      I think it depends on what you’re earning. If you’re making $60k and your coworker is making $72k, then I think that’s a bigger problem if you’re making $160k and your coworker is making $172k.

      Aside from that, I also think it depends on your personal situation. How much does that $12k actually mean to you? If it would just go into savings, then I think that would have an impact on what advice I would give as opposed to if you need the money for something important.

      I would be concerned about what this means in the future. If you get another promotion, will they give you a real raise or just increase your pay by 6% again? If you’re not going to get real raises even with a promotion, maybe it’s time to leave regardless of the pay discrepancy?

      Lots of things to consider, and they’re subjective. I’d think about how much the $12k actually means to you and whether it’s more important for you to have a good working environment rather than being paid the most you can get.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Thinking more about this, I suspect I would also try to push more work on the higher-paid, apparently-more-senior colleague until we got pay equity. I see how this could come around to bite you and could hurt your chances of getting the raise/promotion you might otherwise have gotten, but I’ve gotten extremely cynical about putting in significant effort up front in the hopes that my job will make good on it later.

        1. bee*

          This is an interesting point, and one I’ve thought about quite a bit. I did have some success with this shortly after I got promoted – there are a couple of projects I used to work on alone that I really didn’t enjoy. I mentioned this to my manager, and she agreed to shift one to my higher paid coworker and to make the other a team project.

          I’m not too concerned about those shifts negatively affecting me because I work on our team’s highest profile area that gets a lot of attention from people outside my department.

      2. bee*

        Thanks for this, I think you more succinctly nailed down my issue with all of this which is that I’m trying to figure out how much I value getting a salary increase at a new job vs. staying in my current good working environment where I’m comfortable and generally happy. I definitely need to give this more thought.

        For reference, the salary disparity is $93k vs. $105k. I’m financially comfortable but live in a HCOL area so salary is definitely a consideration. We also get annual bonuses that are targeted as a % of our base, so I think that’s another reason I felt somewhat annoyed by the lower promotion increase.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          That information about bonuses is very important. Of course they want to keep you at a lower salary–then the bonus is lower as well!

          I believe you like this company and your coworkers, but it sounds, frankly, like they’re taking advantage of that. If they think you won’t leave, they aren’t going to bother worrying about the salary discrepancy.

    8. BikeWalkBarb*

      I’m breaking it apart into two sections in my mind: How much the position is worth and what each of you knows and does.

      Pay: What salary range would they offer if you left and they had to refill the position? This other new hire made more in part because he came from outside and they negotiated with him. They’d have to do that if you left so what is the job actually worth to them?

      You say he was at a more senior position coming in. Does this mean they had to pay him more because he was accepting a title cut and making up for it with cash? The logic I see at work there is that his step down balanced with the money, whereas you got a step up in both title and money from where you were. That doesn’t mean you have pay equity, it’s just how they may be calculating the two situations and deciding they’re not comparable.

      He’s at the same level you are now so what’s the pay range for that level? If he’s paid beyond the range then they just adjusted the range whether they realize it or not and a new hire into the position would benefit from that if they did their homework. If you have the salary conversation again and you have a market comparison that could be helpful in negotiating.

      Knowledge and function

      You say you’re essentially at the same level. If he came in with more experience he does bring more to the work (both good and bad) so it isn’t necessarily the disparity you think it is. Do you actually have the same job title and position description? You may be equating things as doing the same work where they see differences that don’t show to you. If that’s the case would this seem like less of an issue? Bearing in mind that you may never know the specifics about someone else’s knowledge performance as viewed by their supervisor.

      You might explore with your manager what it will take for you to advance to an even higher level over what time frame, then decide whether that’s the particular rat race you want to run in.

    9. NotRealAnonForThis*

      I had a situation like this – where I was earning X, while a new hire (who I TRAINED) was earning 2X.

      It was quickly adjusted to where I was making 1.75X (methinks a lawyer got involved and said “you better fix this because X is being paid to a woman while 2X is being paid to a man…”) because they realized I’d never gotten salary increases with job duties changing over the years.

      I eventually left that job for $2.5X salary, and am now earning quite a bit more than that (I think I’m at 3.5X)

      If I’d stayed put, I might’ve gotten to 2X at this point in my career.

      Put out some feelers, and see if the market is correct for making a jump.

    11. M2*

      This happens all the time. My company and former company were honest that to get the biggest jumps on pay with promotions you had to be an external hire. It’s really frustrating but many organizations work that way. In my case I went to directing/ managing one department and now I head up multiple. And yes I’m trying to leave over it even though I like what I do. My manager is trying but HR is sticking to their policies!

    12. RedinSC*

      I was at a university, and there were 7 people in my same job role/title.

      I was the least experienced, so it made sense that I earned less, but then I found out HOW much less.

      I was earning $30,000 – 50,000 less per year than the men in my same role. AND all the other women in those roles were earning probably $20K or so less than the men.

      I seriously thought about a lawsuit, this was clearly gender discrimination. But I also live and work in a small community, and didn’t know if I’d be able to get another job after suing the largest employer in the area. So I left and get another job that paid more and have move on up the ladder.

      THe bad manager and dysfunctional team is an issue, but I think you should probably start looking, just to see if you would get more if offered a new job. And this might be one of those times that letter your boss know that you will leave for more money or they could match it to have you stay could work.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        I hope you at least reported them to the state? Might not go anywhere, but putting them on the radar is never a bad thing.

    13. AlsoADHD*

      I don’t have any advice. The gender imbalance stood out to me (though I don’t know if you have equivalent education, experience, etc. just because you do the same work–if he has more YOE at a higher level, that probably overcomes any gender law issues). My biggest question is… did you believe the explanation or have any reason to question it?

    14. Qwerty*

      Would you have been happy with the salary if you didn’t know what your coworker makes?

      Positions have pay bands. In general, someone who is just starting out at a higher position is going to be paid less than someone who has a proven track record at that level. The reason for the difference is pretty clear – he has more experience than you, not just at your new level, but apparently at a higher one.

      Getting promoted often takes someone from being a high performing Level X to a low performing Level X+1. New jobs have learning curves! Your manager’s expectations are probably in line with that and there’s a decent chance of getting a raise after 12-18months.

      But if you are this upset over it, move on. I see this all the time in tech – someone gets promoted, wants the middle of the payband, and immediately starts shopping around. It hasn’t really worked out for any of them long term – usually they end up in over their head because NewBoss expects them to perform at a higher level that matches the salary.

    15. Synaptically Unique*

      I’ve also been in this position. The next lowest-paid person (promoted into the position at the same time) with an equivalent role and the same title made 40% more than me. I managed to get some solid raises through the years and my salary has more than doubled. My index person retired early – still making 40% more than me. I stayed for lots of reasons, but it was always an irritant. Maybe I’ll reach that same salary by the time I can retire.

    16. Dog momma*

      Good heavens, I thought 5% salary increases went out in the 90s! Plus across the board raise turned into merit raises.
      Certifications in your specialty was encouraged and rewarded. Nursing was attracting more men but females still made up the bulk of employees, though that has changed as time went on. our hospital never gave more than 2-3% increase for years & sometimes not anything.
      The last 10 yrs I was employed.. not in the hospital arena ( I did utilization review) I never got a raise..I had a 30 HR position + health benefits & 3 per diems to boost my SS and get at least 40 hrs per week. I was exempt for much of it & ended up working basically 50-60 hrs a week for 2 yrs before I retired & relocated out of state. I would have appreciated 5% increases during that time.
      Figure out if a great boss/ co workers plus nice perks & decent salary are worth start all over again. If you aren’t struggling to put food on the table & pay your bills, & can treat yourself once in a while to dinner out or whatever you enjoy/ a nice vacation; there’s your answer. And maybe on your annual review you will get some sort of increase. The job market is tough right now. Many can’t find a job in their field as a previous poster said. Many applications per interview. and these are experienced people.
      good luck!

    17. Ajay*

      Jealousy is natural but generally harmful to self. To manage it, get free help on internet, or pay some psychologist.

    18. Ancient Llama*

      I take it you both have about the same years experience and do the same job, but “he was hired into that level from another company” i.e. they are valuing broader experience at $12k. So if you go to another company, you’d be able to do the same there. It happens a lot (and is not done well by companies a lot), but you aren’t being impulsive. It’s just a time for you to decide if you want to see about a job somewhere else. I get the fear factor in somewhere new, but follow Alison’s advice on the two-way interview process and you minimize that risk a lot. Also nothing wrong if you stay, depth has its own value for you and the company.

  4. Career Crossroad*

    I don’t know what next step to take in my career, and I need advice! I’ll try to keep this short.

    I just graduated with an MBA from large state university. I have also worked full-time at this university for 7 years. I really love my current role, which I have been in for 2.5 years, and I feel like I could stay here for another couple years, but long term there is no room for growth on this team. However, I often feel unchallenged in this position, and I feel like I should move on since I just got this degree and I want to grow my career. I cannot decide whether I want to stay at the university long-term or not.

    I applied for and had an interview for another role at the university, which would be a small step up in seniority and salary. I do feel it would be more challenging and could set me up for the next step in my career, but I feel like if I took another position at the university, I would be pigeonholed into working here long-term.

    I have been applying outside of the university but have had no bites yet. There’s lots of interesting positions out there that I feel could really grow my career more and make more money that I can at the university. Also, since I like my current role, I feel like I’m in a position to wait for the right fit.

    What would you do? Or what advice would you give your younger self in a similar position?

    1. ThatGirl*

      It sounds like you are already doing it? Keep your eyes open for interesting positions that might be a good fit, and in the meantime keep doing what you’re doing? Looking and even interviewing are not a promise to leave; you’re just keeping your options open.

    2. Friday Hopeful*

      Apply for the other job, no one expects you to stay forever but if it is a step up and/or a step in the direction you want to go, then go for it.

    3. Rex Libris*

      My experience has been that over the long term, public institutions are far more stable places to be employed, and come with better overall benefits than most private sector jobs.

      There will come a time (sooner than it feels like now) when you’re more worried about what your retirement account looks like than how challenged you feel. If I had 7 years in a state retirement system or TIAA-CREF or whatever, I’d not walk away from it.

      1. chocolate muffins*

        I think for universities, this largely depends on what state they’re in, assuming this is for the US. I would hate to be at a public university in Florida and multiple other red states currently, and those jobs don’t feel particularly stable to me, though this is coming from a faculty perspective and not an admin one. I also wasn’t sure if the OP was at a public or private university – from this comment it sounds like they’re at a public one so maybe I just missed that in their post?

        1. Rex Libris*

          I could be wrong. They said “large state university” so I assumed a public institution. And true, these are unique times in the public sector for a number of states. Those things usually change as the political winds shift, though.

    5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Why do you feel like you would be pigeonholed to stay at the university? Are you thinking that people from the outside would not hire you? Because I know people in my university who have been here for years and successfully left to corporate or non profit jobs. I have also seen people go to other universities. Depending on what you do, many people want people from universities.

      I could see the worry about being Pigeonholed in the university in a particular role but not in the university as a whole.

    6. Meh*

      Take the step up. It will broaden your network, can’t hurt financially, give you new skills/ accomplishments which can open up other roles for you inside and outside the university.

    7. RedinSC*

      A couple of things to think about.

      1. does your state university offer a pension that you have to vest into, and does that happen after 5 years?

      If there’s a pension like that, I might stick it out for those 5 years (you only have 2.5 more to go!) to vest into the pension system as it is. Now, in CA once you vest, you can separate, BUT if you ever join that university (or any other employer within the same pension system) you start up again where you left off. Meaning, you’ve got your 5 years, and then maybe grow that to 8 or 10 or whatever.

      That will offer you some more retirement when the time comes.

      I’m assuming you’re on the younger side (like maybe under 30) so you might not have really started investing for retirement yet, but having that little foothold into a pension could really help set you up well.

      Then, after your 5 years at the uni, you can move on to the business world or where ever and grow your career even more. You won’t be tire into the university if you take that other job that will challenge you a bit more. There are (hopefully) always going to be additional opportunities out there to look into.

      But look into the pension and see what that might offer you once you’ve vested into it.

    8. Hyaline*

      You’re at a stage where maybe it makes sense to seek some mentorship from someone doing a role you see yourself in someday? Or even just someone who has a good birdseye view on what opportunity at your university and elsewhere looks like?

      Also–I know you’re probably eager to get the benefit of that MBA as quickly as possible, but it’s not “wasted” if the opportunity doesn’t arise to leverage it ASAP. But since you’re at a degree-granting institution, it’s worth asking/noting at your next regular review about a potential raise for having it (many degree-granting institutions pay more when you have advanced degrees because…not to do so would suggest they don’t value degrees and well. You see where this is going).

  5. Little Beans*

    My boss is proposing a promotion for me that involves taking on greater responsibility for another area (currently vacant), and delegating some of my current work to my direct reports. We talked about it for a long time to make sure it was something I wanted to do and I eventually agreed. HR is now saying that we have to hold an open recruitment, which means I have to apply and that there is some small chance I could not get it. Is this something that we could have grounds to negotiate with HR about? I understand hiring the best candidate, but my boss literally wrote this job description with me, for me, and we revised 2 other peoples’ roles to make it work. It just seems like a bad outcome either way: either everyone wastes time interviewing candidates who have no chance, or they do have a chance and I risk being out of a job entirely.

    1. Tio*

      This is not an uncommon policy, although not always the best one. My job has it too. But your boss would probably know better how flexible or inflexible it is. I would ask your boss about what would happen if you didn’t get the role. Would you actually be out of a job, or would you stay in a different version of the job you already have? That would probably inform you more on how much of a risk this is, and whether it might be worth it to you to pump the brakes on it.

    2. Nicosloanicota*

      Talk to your boss about how to ensure if you weren’t selected for this role, you would at least have your own role to go back to. If they can’t ensure that, I don’t know if I’d even want to go forward to be honest (but I’m more risk averse than some).

    3. WellRed*

      I call BS. Has your HR department shown incompetence in the past? It sounds like they are rigidly confusing a promotion with the idea of hiring for the new position. Why is your boss not stepping up here?

    4. Antilles*

      It just seems like a bad outcome either way: either everyone wastes time interviewing candidates who have no chance, or they do have a chance and I risk being out of a job entirely.
      Wait, why would you be out of a job entirely? When it comes to internal promotions like this, you don’t quit your current role before applying, you just apply. If you get it, then you move there and they backfill your current role (whether that means hiring someone new or redistributing your current work load). If you don’t get it, then things simply stay as they are.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah something’s off here — if the promotion is not to an entirely different position (with Little Beans’ role current position then being filled), but just a promotion within the same position it should fall outside any policies about having to externally advertise a role. If the job is to a new role, than if Little Beans isn’t the one who gets hired they would just stay in their current role. I was in this exact position once — boss and I had drafted a new position for me to move into but because my then-current position would then be filled, HR considered the promotion position a newly created one and required external advertising of it – but if they had found an external candidate I wouldn’t have lost my job, just stayed in the old one. (They ended up having to make an external hire because the process took so long that I had time to realize I didn’t actually want to stay at that employer and went and got a new job elsewhere.)

        Little Beans, you might want to chat with your boss again about what happens if an external hire is made — if there’s no room for you to stay in your old role if that happens then HR is applying this policy weirdly and you definitely should try to negotiate it.

      2. Little Beans*

        We are creating a new role that consists of most of the work I’ve been doing in my current role, plus elements of a currently vacant role. In order to make room for the new responsibilities, I would delegate some of my current tasks to someone else, which is already in the works. So this new role is replacing my current role.

        1. Nocturna*

          I would definitely work with your boss (and maybe loop in your grandboss if possible?) to push back on the idea of needing to do an external search for the new role. Having to apply for what is essentially a change of duties, with a possible outcome that you might/would be fired if they don’t choose you as the final candidate, is definitely far outside of business norms, at least in the US.

          If HR continues to insist on an external search, at that point I think it would come down to what your risk tolerance is and how likely you think it is that your boss (or whoever has hiring authority) would pick you for the “new” position no matter what. And for the flip side, it’s not ideal to waste people’s time by having them apply for a position they can’t get, but sometimes foolish policies have less-than-ideal outcomes, and that would be neither your fault nor within your power to change in this instance.

          1. Laggy Lu*

            To add to this, if HR insists on this job search, the job description needs to be written in the most narrow way possible, so that only Little Beans is qualified. Also, the position can just be posted for like 5 days or something so it gets little exposure. I did something similar when I wanted to hire a specific person for a role, but we wanted to outwardly follow our hiring processes.
            It’s stupid, but it worked.

          2. BikeWalkBarb*

            The flip side of this was just in this week’s short answers for the person on the outside interviewing and feeling as if their time had been wasted when HR made the hiring team go through the process when they already had an internal candidate. There was a suggestion that the posting could include actual wording along the lines of “an internal candidate has already been identified”, which to me would scare away all but the most determined applicants. It would check the box for recruitment.

            But none of that seems right! You’re being promoted and this is a reorg of your unit. Get your boss to back HR down.

        2. eek*

          So, since I’m a little dense here, you would definitely lose your job if someone else was picked for the “new” position? If that’s so, I would tell the boss no and stick to the job you have. Way too risky. It doesn’t matter if they designed it for you. Too many things could go wrong. Please do let us know how it turns out, and good luck!

    5. Parenthesis Guy*

      HR clearly doesn’t see this as a promotion but rather you applying for a different job. The fact that it’s written with you for you puts you in the drivers seat. Sounds like you wouldn’t need someone to negotiate with HR as much as go over their heads.

    6. Synaptically Unique*

      We just went through two variations on this, though I have been successful in the past with simply promoting internal people. It helps that I have a small team in a niche field. It’s not like jobs that have 50 appropriately-skilled people who all would potentially toss their hat in the ring.
      Both of the recent positions were literally written with someone specific in mind. They were posted for the minimum time, not advertised, and we didn’t get any other qualified candidates applying. So we skipped the interviews and just went straight to negotiations.
      With one of them, we talked about what it would look like if somehow another skilled candidate applied and got the position. Basically we would have had to completely change her job description, but it all worked out.

    7. GythaOgden*

      The only reason you would be out of a job entirely is if you were interviewing for your /own/ job like I was ten years ago when I went temp to perm in the UK public sector, which is pretty much forced to advertise every position even if there’s a shoo-in candidate.

      I’ve been here and normally things will be (unofficially) weighted towards you, but I’m in the public sector so we have very strict rules about recruitment and promotion.

      Additionally, I think in the interviews for my current job, my boss actually wanted to see me present a case for it. It’s a job that involves being really on the ball at times and telling people way above your paygrade to cross all their ts and dot all their is, and so she wanted the hiring process to bring out my competitive side. She said afterwards when offering me the job that she knew I could do the job, but she wanted to see me come out of my shell a bit because she’d only known me as a receptionist, by its nature a reactive role, and she needed me to be a bit more proactive. It’s really worked — I’ve just been appointed a regional lead on one project that I’d been administrating all year, and that was because I rose to the challenge set in that verbal offer and learned to poke and prod managers to get their [stuff] done already.

      So an interview can prove you are ready if you haven’t had the benefit of doing the work already. (If you are, that’s something to say in the interview, like my temp to perm conversion conversation. That will definitely give you a big edge over external competition.)

      If you have to prove yourself in an open process, even one that might well be subtly rigged in your favour, I think it sends a message that you’re ready to take on higher grade work in general. From another perspective, also, it’s fairer to open it up to outside folks as well; in the UK public sector we have a community responsibility not just to hire/promote from inside but to share the love a bit with the immediate community. As the government, we need to show we’re considering everyone who approaches us rather than just handing out favours internally. (It doesn’t help with either retention or upward mobility within the worker corps, which sorely needs rebalancing — I started work in 2014 with a lot of people who were still in the same roles when I left in 2023, and it was getting to the point where I’d rather quit and go temping again because with a highly stratified working environment I couldn’t get extra work within my role to actually show what I could do for anyone else — but it’s useful in other ways to cast a wider net into the communities we serve.)

  6. Nicosloanicota*

    What are we all doing with work sites that require tw0-factor logins? I am trying to convince my boss we should use a google voice number for these (we actually use gsuite for work anyway), mostly because we have a lot of turnover and it’s not fun realizing we need a long-gone employee to forward us a text to get into an account. Some of these are accounts we only use annually but more and more of them are making two factor phone # required.

    1. Ashley*

      We took to assigning it to a higher ups cell phone number. Not the most convenient for regular things but ok on the occasional ones.
      Also if an email is an option instead of a phone number I try to default to that.
      But if there are any company cell phone numbers I would advocate for a ‘desk’ cell phone for this. It has the dual advantage of a working line of the phone lines ever go down.

      1. Nicosloanicota*

        Using the higher ups’ number is what I’ve been doing, but my boss is sick of it and it’s been an issue a few times when I needed to log into something and she’s unavailable. It feels stupid for both of us to have to coordinate to get a tiny task done. My boss has asked me to switch them to me, which I do *not* want to do, particularly since (unbeknownst to her) I’m job searching myself. A desk cell is an interesting idea.

        1. Her name was Lola*

          You could just do as they request. When you leave, it will no longer be your problem. You don’t have to help once you’ve left.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      That’s what I’d like to know because we are “supposed to” not use our cell phones in our cube areas at all, but 2FA means you literally have to log in with your phone in the vicinity of your computer.

      (I note that my area doesn’t seem to enforce this policy at all, but other areas probably do.)

      1. Observer*

        Why don’t they give you hardware tokens? Sure, the cost a couple of dollars, but if you don’t want people using their phones, this works quite well.

    3. Paint N Drip*

      A google voice number is SO clearly a correct option if you don’t want to add more technology items to the office. If security is an issue, perhaps your office phone provider could get you an additional line with an online portal? We use a TON of 2-factor auth and it’s a huge pain but with a super small office it’s just easiest to use the boss cell# – I will never use my own for your reasons :)

    4. CR Heads*

      What’s the downside of just using your own phone? It seems much easier than having one employee have to forward a text to everyone else

      1. constant_craving*

        It sounds like a single account set up for the company, so it has to go to a single number even though multiple people may need to access it.

    5. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      We use a Google voice number and it works well. Wish we’d started doing it years ago!

    6. strawberry lemonade*

      If you use a password vault, many of them include two-factor authentication. Not every website allows for this but many of them do. Basically you have a password in the password vault, and it also has a 6-digit number that refreshes every 30 seconds. A password vault is also probably good practice if you have a lot of turnover but need to use shared accounts.

      1. Observer*

        Very much so.

        I’m just going to say to avoid LastPass. It’s a really nice product, but they messed up the most fundamental aspect – their security. They got breached in the stupidest way, the situation was made worse because they had failed to take some nerdy, but actually simple precautions, and then they handled the actual breach *very* badly.

        But there are a lot of other good products.

    7. WorkPhones*

      Many MFA offer a download codes option (and all of the rest should). Require that a set be downloaded and saved somewhere that gets backed up/stored in OneDrive or a similar repository.

      Provide work phones for users who needs to use phones for work. Don’t allow work stuff on personal devices.

  7. whose time is set-up time?*

    When does work start? When you arrive at your desk? Or after you’ve set up your computer, etc?

    Just curious: my company recently switched from assigned desks to hot desks, so the “ready to work” motions have gone from sitting down to about 5-10 minutes of plugging in, getting out files etc. I’m curious whose time that is.

    1. Nicosloanicota*

      I would absolutely count it as the time I got to the workspace if it was taking me 10 minutes to set up the computer etc. That time is theirs to eat since they presumably benefit from the hot desking arrangement.

    2. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

      Do you have admin time you can bill? If not, I would rotate the client you bill this to, depending on how strict your time sheets are. I would definitely count it though.

    4. Tio*

      When you sit down at your desk, as long as you’re not bringing your breakfast along and eating for 30 minutes before you start working. But the regular “set up computer, arrange files, etc” is generally work. You might have to give up a minute or two if you have to do a punch in on said computer, but that would be the first thing I’d do once computer is up.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      Are you talking about legally or in principle?

      I think there have been some dodgy legal rulings that allow employers to count certain time you’re preparing to do work as your time (e.g., going through a security check to enter the building, waiting in line to punch your time card, doing flight attendant duties before the plane takes off).

      But, yeah, in principle if you’re moving desks and prepping all that stuff, I consider that work time.

    6. Rex Libris*

      IANAL, but my understanding is that work starts from the first significant action taken. I’d count plugging in and getting out the files as that, but not something like arriving at the building or opening the office door. I don’t know what would meet the actual legal definition, if there is one, though.

    7. chickia*

      If it’s getting yourself settled, getting your coffee, morning chat with people, etc, I’d say arrive early enough to do that stuff before starting “work”. But if it’s related to *because* you are hotdesking and there’s additional time to get settled in that you wouldn’t otherwise need? That’s on company time IMO.

    8. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      To me, work starts when you get to work–mainly because, at least at my job, I could end up doing work-related stuff as soon as I get out of my car (pulled into a conversation with a coworker from another department, helping a patron, etc.). And I’d say that if your work has changed things so that you have to do more to “get ready to work”, that’s on them.

      The other thing you could consider is, if you had to clock in physically, you’d probably do it as you walked into the building or onto your floor or what have you. So even if you’re not actively “working”, you’re there for work and that counts.

      1. Tippy*

        Same. Granted I’m exempt now but even when I wasn’t it started when I walked in the door as I could, and was, started being asked questions/consulted as soon as my boss or coworkers saw me.

    9. Dinwar*

      I say it starts when I show up. There have been enough times when I walk in and immediately start talking to someone about work, before I even take my jacket off, that I think it’s justified. Plus it’s usually a small enough amount of time between “show up” and “actually start working on my computer” that it’d take more time to manage the time than it would to just start when I got there.

      1. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

        THIS! if i spend more than a few minutes on my commute looking at slack/outlook, or catch myself actively working out a problem for a project, i bill it. doesnt matter if i’m commuting or at my desk.

    12. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      When I worked in a call center we had to hot desk. We were specifically told in training to not touch the computers until your scheduled time, unless you were doing OT. We had roughly 3 minutes to get logged into the computer and then clock in. Sometimes your supervisor would have to go in and change your clockin time to when you actually showed up because the computer would do an update or something.

      It’s a little flexible where I am now but for me as soon as I am in the office I am on.

    13. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      Current job: after I have set up my computer and booted it enough to punch in.
      Prior job 1: we manually adjusted our time cards to account for that setup time.
      Prior job 2: when the business opened. We did not get paid for the time it took to prepare to open or for any of the minutes past closing time, even if customers hadn’t checked out yet. That was still perfectly normal for that position as of 2022 and probably still is.

    14. Random Bystander*

      Getting ready to work that is more than sitting in one’s place–that’s work (so arriving at the desk).

      I’m WFH and am hourly, and have to clock in on a webpage that is located on the intranet. It takes a couple minutes for the computer to boot up (I do a restart at the close of the day) after I wake it and log into the computer, then I have to hit the shortcut to get to the intranet page and it is a punch “start shift” or “end shift” that is stamped with whatever the clock time on the computer is. If I have issues (it takes longer than normal for the computer to spin up the webpage), I can manually enter a missed clock (but too many of those get flagged).

      If I had to plug everything in and get it all situated, I’d completely consider that to be work. I’m not doing that for my benefit (my desk at home is all set so that all I have to do is three-key to start it up, enter my user id/pw and wait for it to finish starting up, hit that shortcut, and hit “start shift”. I will not so much as open email before I have hit “start shift” (and then there’s the programs I have to log into, and some documents that I need to open so it’ll take a good 10 minutes to get everything ready to actually go).

  8. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

    hi there! I work at a small (11 person) creative firm. I have been here 5.5 years and in my current role 1.5 as a midlevel employee. long story short, I’ve had some communication and interpersonal issues at work for about the last year or so, which i understand now to be due to previously unacknowledged neurodivergency (gifted and talented classes all through school! chronic overachiever! i fkn LOVE trains! the signs were all there!). My boss, bless her heart, is conflict avoidant and also Midwestern. In working through my struggles, we have acknowledged that she could have been a lot more direct in giving me constructive criticism over the years, such as telling me i’m an abnormally high performer repeatedly while i clearly was not reading between the lines to slow down, etc.

    Things are on the mend, but I would like advice in how to approach speaking to her about my needs from people with more office/white collar experience. Basically, i feel like she let me run headfirst into a brick wall of burnout. I was previously in food & bev, changed careers, and began here as an intern with a five person team. I do like the team, most of the culture, and the projects i am on, but i acknowledge that in hindsight it probably would have been better for my career growth to work at a larger, more structured firm for a while. It’s too late for that – what does my manager owe me in terms of support as a neurodivergent employee, and what are some of the kinds of things others have found helpful?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Not to be unkind, but I think the responsibility to avoid burnout fall on the individual rather than the manager. As a manager if an employee says “I’m feeling overwhelmed” or if a manager noticed an employee is having to work a lot of overtime to meet their goals, then they have space to step in and say “how can we adjust your workflow” or “I noticed you haven’t used any of your PTO this year, can we setup coverage so you feel more comfortable using it”. But in terms of noticing burnout, that’s on the employee. Your manager doesn’t know unless you tell them.

      As the individual, have check ins with yourself. Are you using your vacation time? Are you getting all your work goals achieved without feeling overwhelmed? Are you having ups and downs of busy periods at work or is it all busy all the time? Are you assigning urgency correctly to your tasks? Take the answers to those questions as things you can address with your manager. Ask for support if you need it! Ask for help prioritizing if you need it! Push back on tasks if needed (I’m doing A B and C this week, I can take on task D as well but then I’ll need to drop one of those what do you think is most inportant?). Address things with your personal life too, are you able to leave work at work, to tune out work thoughts for thoughts of hobbies at night instead. Are you getting a healthy lifestyle. If you’re working 60hr weeks so nothing else can happen, take that to your manager, ” Im doing my best to be productive at work but Im consistently hitting 60hrs in office, can you help me figure out a strategy to lower that?”

      Also keep updating your resume, sometimes the best way to reset boundaries with a job that’s caused burnout is to just start over with good boundaries in a new job.

      1. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

        not unkind at all – thank you! i genuinely just do not know how much to expect from my employer. there were times in the past where I said I was feeling overwhelmed and did not feel heard, so that is something we are working on as well. appreciate your response!

        1. DisneyChannelThis*

          You’re welcome! For an example of what to expect/how to ask for more help, try updating your to do lists with your boss. In my current role, I have multiple bosses and it’s a mess. But one of my bosses always takes 5min at the end of our 1:1s to run through my to do list with me, I started that by just doing a “can I read back my action items I’m going out of this meeting with, I want to make sure I’m not missing something” and usually we end up dropping a couple as future tasks as they’re not urgent. (Also valuable as a couple times I misunderstood the request and would have wasted time on the wrong things!). Another boss we just have a google doc shared and I add to it and cross off when stuff is done, an easy way for him to see it and say oh I changed my mind items #12-14 just don’t bother I care about #15 way more, do that next. That works better because I don’t meet 1:1 with him, but he can load the document to get an update without needing to schedule a meeting.

          Another way to get heard with overwhelmed is to include time estimates. Someone asks for a thing, still say yes but tell them when you’re likely to have it done. (I can get that to you tomorrow I just need to finish some tasks for Project A first today, does that work ok with your deadlines?). Coworkers especially don’t know what you are doing and probably don’t mean to overload you. You may find the answer to does that work for your timeline is oh i didn’t mean to rush it, just get it to me anytime next week.

          Look into Eisenhower Matrix as a means of prioritizing as well. That and Kanban charts really changed my work style.

          1. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

            will do! this is super helpful again, thank you, really appreciate it!

          2. Banana Pyjamas*

            I LOVE an Eisenhower Matrix. I have a tendency to put undesirable tasks in the unimportant/not urgent square. At work that’s usually filing the paper. I have have fond replacing that square completely to be helpful. Instead of just telling myself “I’ll do that for an hour each Friday,” I label it the Friday square. At home I replaced it with the shopping list. Also, if you’re not in a position to delegate tasks, then that square isn’t exactly helpful anyway.

            I liked having a whiteboard with my to-do list. My bosses really never looked at our Outlook group, but they came to see me in person a lot. They appreciated being able to see what I had slated and what I was currently working on. Two thirds of my board was the to-do matrix, and one third was currently doing/done. I liked to cross things off rather than erase because it gave me satisfaction and my boss could SEE what I had done.

            1. Fluff*

              I wish there was a AuDHD matrix. This is sort of mine. I like your assigning a day to each square. I think that might just be genious.

              The table of Fluff

              Now Not Now

              Interesting Agonizingly Boring I have no pulse

              Easy Pease Climbing Everest without oxygen in a bikini

              1. Fluff*

                So much for spaces. 2 columns, 3 rows:

                Now – not now / Ever
                Interesting – agony of boring & coma
                Easy peasy – climbing Everest without oxygen in a bikini

                1. Banana Pyjamas*

                  Yep! Filing and dishes were usually not now/ever. Problematic at best. I ended up making a habit tracker for dishes to get myself out of that mindset. So yes, there need to be work-arounds/alternatives. FWIW I have high-masking ADHD.

                  I struggle with object permanence, so planners, notebooks, and apps just don’t work as well. Accordingly, I actually bought whiteboards for home. Planners that are pretty enough to get my attention are helpful, especially if they have features I like. Kit Life Undated went pretty well, though I didn’t stick with it. They have unfortunately made significant changes, and I wouldn’t use them now. I really want to try Laurel Denise’s Undated Weekly Vertical planner. The new version has a proper habit tracker.

        2. Justin*

          I would say as someone who was dx’d with ND at 35, after having professional issues with a NOT understanding boss, I honestly had to change jobs. Things are basically perfect now.

          But if you don’t want to do that. I’d say more, “Boss, if I tell you x, that means i am really hitting a limit and in need of y” instead of asking her to intuit the Y.

          1. EMP*

            re: telling your boss more directly about your limits, it seems VERY possible to me that given your boss’s midwest style and your ND dx, she may have genuinely thought she was telling you to slow down but it just didn’t come through in a way you could understand. I’m not saying that’s something for you to fix unilaterally, but it may help the relationship if you can understand those “x really means Y” from her side.

            1. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

              yeah this is something i’m placing a lot of focus on at the moment. I try not to complain in general, so it seems like my “hi i have hit a wall” comments were brushed off as not being as serious as they were. my colleagues are all the kind of people who say things like “i’m fighting for my life over here” when encountering a mild inconvenience, so i think it also has a bit to do with our company culture.

              1. Ceanothus*

                Sometimes I give a problem a ranking out of five or out of ten as context — usually if I do it several times then my boss learns that a 4 or an 8 is a pretty significant issue? (And that a 2 is something I can handle but will require additional work etc.)

                I also say that I’m “surfing a big wave” when I’m still on top of things but it’s tricky — I say “I’m surfing a big wave right now, I’m going to ride it as far as I can, when I fall I’ll let you know how far inland I made it. I’m just hoping not to get thrown off balance.”

          2. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

            glad you were able to find a better fit! I’m still waffling on whether i’d like to make a move, as im at a place most people would kill for and i do truly enjoy it most of the time. She and i both need to work on our communication styles and I have begun to speak more directly like this – it has definitely helped. best of luck to you

        3. Tio*

          Something that may help measure is if your role has any kind of KPIs. Are your coworkers averaging 3 tickets per hour and you’re doing ten? How long does your boss expect a task to take vs how long does it take you? Some people are very good at specific tasks and can breeze through them, but sometimes you’re just doing way too much. Or even you’re doing it but o fast you may be making mistakes.

          I would sit and think about your average day and average week. What tasks do you do and how long do they take you? can you list them out? Can you get in touch with your manager and see if those are realistic times for those tasks?

          I’ve managed an employee who will overextend herself and not tell me when she’s doing too much, and the only hint she used to give was “Oh I’m busy this week.” People get busy, so I didn’t recognize it as her pushing herself too hard. Now that I know her better, I can recognize it better, but I also can’t watch over her all the time and she’s not good at speaking up for herself on that front. Very much a “any downtime means your being lazy” kind of mindset when in fact there is meant to be a bit of downtime in most jobs to cover emergencies and such. We’ve been working on it, but there’s a limit to what I can do even if I know, and same for your manager.

          1. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

            love hearing this perspective, as it sounds like i share that mentality with your employee. advocating for myself is definitely a growth opportunity for me. I work in a very creative industry at a very relaxed firm, where every project’s metrics and output are different according to fee structure, etc. This is a great point though, and something i think I can adapt to try to look at from a high level. appreciate it – thank you!

          2. MaryLoo*

            Personally I find that a manager who expects you to “read between the lines” when they are telling you (or they THINK they are telling you) something you need to improve on is a poor manager. It is ridiculously unfair to then ding you on your review etc because you were not able to read their mind and figure out what they meant.

            I understand intellectually the difference between ask vs guess culture but in situations like work where the manager is giving feedback and expecting the worker to act on that feedback, expecting you to read between the lines is grossly unfair.

    2. GythaOgden*

      To get official accommodation you would need to disclose that you need them (here it goes through occupational health and there’s a dialogue so there is a medical part of the process), but yeah, as a ND person myself, it’s up to me to advocate for myself. My boss knows I can’t drive and thanks to an accident exacerbated by my autistic neurophysiology (which makes joint disorders more pronounced; not quite to Ehlers Danlos proportions in my case but definitely I had problems that weren’t caught in childhood when anything could be done to use the bones’ natural setting properties to help and thus led to serious problems in my 40s), less mobile than others, so I get extra allowance for travel to various sites through the already generous corporate programme.

      I /don’t/ get the opportunity not to do my job or be a pain in the ass to others. That’s a given, and I’m sure you’re not intending to go that way, but it has to be spelled out for those looking in and searching for advice later on.

      So it needs to be a dialogue. You know your mental and neurological health and needs best, and we’re actually explicitly told in DEI training /not/ to assume we know what a neurodivergent person actually needs. So you need to bring to your boss what you’re struggling with and what might help alleviate the issues (within the boundaries of ‘reasonable’, that is, you can’t abrogate parts of your job and you can’t have an impact on other colleagues’ situations; adjustments are tools to support you rather than licences to not do part of the job; I’m sure you know that already but the debate goes sideways very quickly here IME of disability talk into ‘it’s ok for her to be a grumpy jerk to patients if she’s suffering from a pain disorder…’ type of adjustment/accommodation which is nonsense).

      AskJan has a wide range of recommendations for reasonable accommodations. The important thing is to start a dialogue and not to actually expect bosses to mind-read. I know it can be daunting, and I’ve fallen on my feet because I work for a great employer that actually practices what it preaches, but don’t expect your boss to just come to you out of the blue. Most people have internal struggles that you don’t necessarily see and for us ND folks, advocacy begins with ourselves — knowing our conditions, ameliorating them as much as possible through our own resources and then talking to bosses about our needs at work once we’ve come to some understanding and focus of what would help support us in our role. For me, the only thing I needed was the travel allowances that helped me navigate a more stressful situation the night before an on-site day, and reminding people that any corporate social responsibility stuff needs to be disability friendly (in a division of the NHS that provides a lot of physical labour and is thus generally skewed towards people who are fairly active and fit just by dint of their jobs).

      But if you don’t take proactive moves here, no-one else is going to notice. Managers have everyone else to cater to and their workload on top of that, and it’s really important that we disabled folks cut through the noise to be able to come to arrangements that will support us and our specific needs.

  9. Yes And*

    Low stakes question, I just want to know if I’m right to be annoyed.

    In working to solve a problem with several colleagues over an email thread, it was suggested that we all meet. The head of the other department involved (my co-equal on the org chart) responded, “Sure, here’s a link to my Calendly, pick a time.”

    I have no problem taking on the task of scheduling this entirely internal meeting. But our organization has a company-wide calendaring software, and… it is not Calendly. I have no objection to Calendly, I think it’s perfectly fine, it’s just not what we use. And I don’t think I (or anyone else) should have to negotiate between the software of choice for every individual in the company when there’s a company-wide solution in place.

    Am I right to be annoyed?

    1. Tio*

      That’s a little annoying. But I’d probably look at the calendly, pick a time that seems open, then schedule it with the company software. I wouldn’t pick that hill to die on.

    2. Lacy LaPlante*

      If this colleague has a lot of external meetings they may just share the Calendly out of habit. I assume Calendly syncs with your org’s calendar software, and you can use the org calendar to schedule it.

      1. CTT*

        Yes, my assumption is that he doesn’t expect you to schedule with that software if it’s not what you use, but that’s where the fullest view of his availability is.

    3. Rex Libris*

      It seems like a fairly minor ask, it’s not like there’s a big learning curve on calendar software.

      For what it’s worth, I’ve found that if I think in terms of whether it’s useful to be annoyed, rather than whether I’m right to be annoyed, my day goes much smoother.

      1. Anon Teacher*

        I’m going to try asking myself that question next week and see if it helps with my annoyance at work. Sounds like great advice!

    4. Charlotte Lucas*

      Depends on your org. Most of my work-life has been with government or government contractors. That could be a potential compliance/security issue (that might need to be reported).

      Otherwise, I would be annoyed only if it caused me more work.

    5. OldHat*

      I’m not a fan of all these apps or features that basically do the same thing. Especially when they require an account. I try to pick my battles, and this us not one I’d pick. I’d look at the tines and book it with your company’s preferences.

    6. mreasy*

      You are right to be annoyed. Is this person expecting you to schedule with them via Calendly and the other meeting attendees separately? I would just use the normal system.

    7. CR Heads*

      Wouldn’t Calendly be linking to the same calendar anyway? I don’t think there’s any real difference between the two methods.

    8. JelloStapler*

      Before we had an appointment scheduling CRM/system for our students at my University, we used Calendly, and it syncs. So I agree with the comment to look at it then use the company system to schedule.

    9. Hyaline*

      It’s annoying. But it’s “eyeroll and move on” annoying, not “actionable” annoying.

    10. GythaOgden*

      You have my sympathies. I think it obviously helps to be flexible and able to at least put up with different systems, but you really don’t have to /like/ it.

      I /totally/ spend the first hour or so of a new program messing about before establishing an MO with it, just like when I open my PS5 and start playing video games in the evening. Just like it takes me an hour in Assassin’s Creed to realise I totally should have nabbed that collectable a long time ago and now the area is inaccessible, so it takes me an hour with our accounting database to learn that I really shouldn’t have pushed that big red button saying ‘Push Me’ — and now I have to resubmit that purchase order for a bunch of lighting parts listed individually from an invoice that made my head hurt. (Tell a lie — you can actually go back there and pick up the shredder in Assassin’s Creed: Enron. Not so in our system — sorry to joke but I did my first year in chartered accounting at the exact time that particular brown stuff hit the fan and it was not fun seeing the fallout hit my Arthur Anderson colleagues even on this side of the Atlantic. It wasn’t THEJR fault but they still lost their jobs.) That and the fact that my office faces west mean I’ve run up a large bill for migraine medication.

      New software, or software that doesn’t mesh with other programs used, is annoying. Even established software like Outlook has its less useful parts — its To-Do list needs to be much more prominent onscreen and make more of a meal of reminders, and when I got back from a week off, I had to use ToDoist to sort what needed done into a priority list on my personal mobile (keeping it discretely worded, of course). My work is based on keeping a whole lot of different systems updated regularly at the same time so if you delete something off one, you have to submit a request to another program, and then check a third to make sure it’s gone through. That’s bad enough when all of them are working. If one isn’t…aaargh.

      One of the managers I work with as an admin was disappointed to hear that she couldn’t add a reference from one program into another — I got one of those round-robin fingerwagging emails from the central team dealing with the app telling us (me and few others) not to meddle with certain fields. Fine, no problem, we’d already established that that suggestion hadn’t worked, along with the inability to filter data directly by customer in Power BI and having to use a proxy statistic for that report which didn’t always filter out other customers’ noise.

      I liken it to cricket scoring, which has four separate counting systems that each have to be filled in every time someone throws the ball, and that /doesn’t/ include the scoreboard visible to players…! So when one app throws a wobbly and refuses to let me do anything, or IT change the location of a field, or whatever…yeah, it sucks big time.

      Thankfully I did learn how to score cricket, however. It’s a really useful tool for a career in compliance.

      In summary, though, I can’t give you justice but I can give you a giant cyberhug and hope things get better.

  10. ANON FOR THIS*

    Is it appropriate to do an ‘AMA readers, share your stories!’ for therapeutic purposes?

    I was one of 2 finalists for a life-changing job I really wanted, and after a grueling interview process, I found out that they went with the other candidate but that it was an ‘extraordinarily close call’ and they ‘felt like they would win either way.’ While the fact that the decision was so difficult should make me feel better, as the unsuccessful candidate, it doesn’t. It feels totally arbitrary and frustrating to think that if the wind had blown a different way that day, I’d have the job. To add insult to injury, the week I was waiting for the outcome was the week I was on vacation, and it pretty much ruined the trip. Especially when I got the rejection the day before I was to leave for home.

    My question–can readers share any stories where they had to choose between two great, almost equal candidates as a hiring manager? What made you choose one over the other?

    My other (evil) question–do any of you have stories where you picked one candidate, and then realized you should have gone the other way?

    1. Bast*

      This is… not great, but at Old Job, if we were stuck between two great candidates, HR Manager would pick the one who would accept a lower offer. Like the dollar more an hour really made that much of a difference to the company. She’d phrase it as, “well, they have more room to grow this way!” Yes, they grew right out of the company usually within a year once they saw what was up and found a job that paid a better wage. Knowing that this is how some companies work has jaded me in some ways when I discuss salary or benefits in interviews now.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        Ugh. I know intellectually that these decisions are sometimes as simple as ‘I think that’s a better college to graduate from’ or ‘I’d prefer to pay them $1 less per hour’ but that just sucks. That’s so demoralizing to know even if the outcome is the same. Glad you got outta there!

    2. chocolate muffins*

      This is not a direct reply to either of your questions so feel free to skip:

      There is research showing that close calls feel much worse than being far away from your goal. For instance, people get much more frustrated if run up to their airport gate just as the door is closing and aren’t allowed to board, vs. missing the flight by several hours. There’s also a study from a while ago suggesting that silver medal winners in the Olympics are the least happy medal winners. Gold winners are obviously happy, bronze winners are happy to be getting a medal at all, but silver medal winners are unhappy because they were so close to getting the gold (especially in the Olympics where the difference between silver and gold is often miniscule).

      The explanation for this effect is that it’s easier to imagine how one thing could have gone differently to get to the outcome you wanted if it’s close, and that’s more frustrating than many things having to be different. For instance in the plane example, the desired outcome seems more achievable if you think “if only I hadn’t hit that one red light, I could have made it” then if you think “if only I hadn’t hit that red light … and that other red light … and stopped to get coffee … and gotten stuck in traffic where that accident happened…”

      So when I was close to something that I wanted but ultimately didn’t get, sometimes it helps to ignore the part where I was close, or to still think about all the things that came together to make me not get it. Like if I were applying for a job where 9 people had to vote for the finalist, I could 4 votes and the other person got 5 votes, I could think about the MANY things that would need to change for that fifth person to vote for me instead. Maybe so many that it wouldn’t even be possible! Or if I had 10 years of experience and the other person had 10.5 and that’s what tipped them over the edge, I might think about what I was doing with my life in that extra half year, which can make it feel less like “I was so close” and more like “I couldn’t possibly have spent that extra half a year getting that experience, so this job that picked someone with 10.5 years of experience was not for me.”

      Sorry if none of this is helpful – again, I know it isn’t exactly what you asked – but wanted to put it here in case it was useful for you or anyone else reading.

      1. ANON FOR THIS*

        Thank you so much–this actually is really helpful. It articulates why it felt so crushing. I don’t know who the successful candidate is yet (the news is very new and they haven’t announced it), but I might be able to make some sense of it once I do.

      3. BikeWalkBarb*

        I’m putting this in my mental filing cabinet. Truly helpful and really interesting research.

    3. pally*

      To respond to your “evil” question: yep, twice!

      First was the super friendly gal with the superwoman resume. Excellent interview. She charmed all of management. One was wise to this and urged we hire the second choice. But management refused.

      We ended up firing her. Insubordination. Unreliable. Bullying. Anger issues.

      Second, a woman who had the perfect skills. She was very quiet in the interview. When we offered her the job, she was…not pleased. But she took the job, nonetheless. Looking back, I wish I’d withdrawn the offer given the way she responded. Management felt that the second choice resided too far across town to make it on time through traffic. *eyeroll**

      She had no manners. Couldn’t utter a “Please” or “Thank you” to anyone. A simple “good morning!” was met with a glare. She seldom spoke more than single word responses to anyone she deemed beneath her (i.e. everyone below VP). Fell asleep in the lab (snored) on a few occasions. Did the work but acted very dismissive of her boss (me). After a few months of this, she quit as she’d found another job-in a different industry.

    4. thelettermegan*

      I absolutely know of an instance where a terrible candidate was picked over a great one. I won’t get into the whole ‘hiring while working in the Game Of Cubicles’ story, but the person hired was such a disaster that it destroyed the reputation of the person who insisted on picking them.

      So while they might have said ‘It was such a difficult choice,’ it could very well be that the other person was the best person for schemes of the director of Littlefinger schemes, and how could you ever know? Who’d be able to explain that?

    5. Ginger Baker*

      I was once the person who just missed out – which I know because the line manager took me out for coffee afterwards and told me that I was HER top pick, especially because of some specific related experience that I had, but that the team I would have been supporting went with the other person for personality-fit reasons. She basically strongly hinted that she was pretty sure the team would end up regretting that decision (and when I saw the role open again a year later, turned out she was right…) and the gist of the discussion was that I was a great candidate and keep doing what I was doing. It was honestly a very encouraging moment in my life and I remember her very fondly – and I shortly thereafter went on to be hired for more money at a place and with a boss that has turned into pretty much my dream job, so it worked out very well for me indeed!

    6. Aggretsuko*

      We were interviewing temps. I loved one of them, the other was just okay. The one I loved had a 2 weeks long planned vacation scheduled a few weeks into starting the 6 month job. My supervisor said both women were the same to her and the vacation was the deciding factor to pick the other one.

      The other one…was a lot of drama.

      1. Bast*

        This has happened at Old Job as well. One candidate mentioned that they were taking a 3 week long cruise shortly after the date we were looking for the person to start, and HR didn’t want to deal with essentially a 5 week gap (2 weeks of notice to their old job and then another 3 weeks of vacation) so they were out, which was a shame, because she was a strong candidate.

      2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        Not a temp role, but something similar once happened to a relative of mine – it was summer, they had a planned vacation and the job (legitimately) needed to start right away, so it was at least part of the deciding factor. A few months later, something similar opened up at the same organization, and my relative was invited in – they ended up getting that job!

    7. Here just for the post*

      Also not exactly answering your question, but at my job we had two great candidates for a job back in 2020 and went with Heather over Leslie. Then in 2022 Heather had to leave the position for personal reasons, so we reached out to Leslie and she took the job in 2022. Heather was great for her time here, and Leslie has been great ever since she joined. So always possible that this great job will come back around if their first choice does not work out, for whatever reason. We didn’t forget Leslie and I’m sure they won’t forget you if it was that close and they need to re-hire in the near-ish future!

    8. Stuart Foote*

      This doesn’t answer your question, but I recently was in a similar position where after a number of interviews (and many rescheduled interviews), reference checks, and a lengthy consideration process, I didn’t get the job. It was legitimately a huge blow. Then I applied to another job with very similar salary, benefits, etc and got that one after a single relatively brief interview. I hope that you experience something similar!

    9. Name name neame*

      I was once on an interview panel and one applicant seemed overly formal and deferential, and I was worried some of the portfolio examples he had were being fluffed up. The other candidate seemed experienced and interested in learning. We chose that one, but ultimately ended up hiring both. The one I had reservations about turned out to be excellent and I still feel bad that I misjudged him for cultural reasons I should have known to examine more. The first one hired never lived up to expectations and was eventually let go.

    10. Mad Harry Crewe*

      We had three applicants to two open Team Lead positions. They were all internal applicants, so we knew them well and all of the could have done a really good job. Candidate A was a shoo-in, everyone was in agreement. The hiring team was split evenly on Candidates B and C. We hired the one who had been at the company longer (coincidentally, more charismatic, male, and friends with Candidate A), and I still think we made the wrong choice.

    11. NepFTW*

      We had to hire a person we only interviewed because of nepotism. We were not impressed and hired someone else. We then ended up in a situation where someone left, and it was between hiring someone from the same interview pool (which had dwindled to basically this person since others had already accepted other jobs) or starting a new search. Our VP told us we had to hire that person instead. We were not pleased.

      This person is still here but…. probably the weakest on the team.

      1. NepFTW*

        *Had to interview the person and then ultimately told to hire them when we needed another position filled.

    12. Nocturna*

      We were hiring for a low-level, mostly rote work role and had two great candidates, both with relevant experience (though in different aspects) but with very different personalities. One seemed likely to be a superstar employee but they were pretty clearly more interested in the job sector than the specific job and we had concerns they might get quickly bored with the rote nature of the job. The other seemed more likely to be a good employee and they were clearly interested in the job itself. We went with the latter and I, at least, have had no regrets over it.

      I’ve also been “first runner-up” multiple times. One of those times, I ended up running into someone who had been on the hiring committee and they told me that I had dodged a bullet in not getting hired; according to them, that workplace was extremely toxic. I wasn’t able to appreciate it at the time, as I was still job-searching and of the mindset that any job would be better than no job, but I’ve been in the job I found instead for eight years now, so ultimately it worked out for me.

    13. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      In my experience it’s a lot like the other comments here: sometimes it’s the hiring manager’s preference, sometimes it’s their boss or the organization who is putting their finger on the scale. Both may have more than 90% competency in my top 5 skills but one of them has extra in the skill that my team lacks the most while the other is better at something I already have someone doing. “How do this person’s skills work for the broader team” is genuinely important. When it’s between two people who could both do the job, I might favor a candidate who is more introverted because my whole team is full of think-out-loud-types and we need it for the mix, or someone who’s got a specific skill we need more of, even if it’s not one of the top 5 things needed to succeed in the role. That’s the stuff where, to some extent, it comes down to luck and timing.

      I can think of one example where it was between two people and in retrospect I would have chosen the other person. Candidate A, whom I hired, was favored by my boss and grandboss and had some previous experience at the company, which is what put them over the edge. And they were great! They did the job, the company experience helped, it was all good. Candidate B had been on contract and ended up going elsewhere when they had a good option open up. And they did great things at their new place. Honestly, I’m not mad at how it shook out since both A and B found good tings, and I had what I needed from A. They weren’t the best fit for me personally as their boss, but we were professional and everything was fine.

      It super sucks that you lost out on this, and I’m sorry you’re going through it. Fingers crossed something great is around the corner.

    14. Girasol*

      I suggested hiring the second best candidate because the best one was too high powered for the job and would have been bored with it. I recommended that the boss find a place for the best candidate thought. Shortly after placing the second-best candidate in the advertised role, the boss did indeed make a slot for the best one and hire him too.

    15. chockobox*

      I had to choose between finalists who each were very qualified and differently qualified. It came down to the reference checks and finding out that all except one of them had a history of being difficult to work with in some way.

  11. Being Dragged Out of Closer*

    I want some advice on how to handle being pressured into displaying/disclosing my pronouns at workplace. I think it’s superb that people want to do this for themselves without coersion, I also think it’s pretty telling of my workplace that the only people who’d do it are very quick to declare they are cis. Based on the way people’s “just a joke”s, I know it’s not a safe place to be out. In fact the way people behaved made my feel like I’m being baited out of my closet. I don’t know any non-cis people at work (no one feels safe to be out), and among a few of us queer folks we all are concerned about we don’t feel safe at all despite of all the rainbows, even if just based on being pressured into declaring our pronouns. It also doesn’t help that I’m a visibly other non-white immigrant. This is metro Australia. How do I navigate this?

    1. Tio*

      Are they directing the pressure at you, specifically, or is it a general company wide email blast/reminder type of pressure?

      1. Being Dragged Out of Closet*

        Organisation wide: in order to attend any workshops, we cannot sign up unless we declare our pronouns. Which will be publicly displayed next to our names for everyone to see. While there is a “prefer not to say” option, we all know what that means.

        Individually I get approached with being singled out for not having a pronoun badge, how I really should get one for $7.99, how us cis girls need to do this. Yes, thanks for being progressive, now I get to choose between lying or receive hate crimes.

        I’m also concerned that, for non-queer people who are being constantly harassed about something personal like this, how many of them think this is what us non-cis people want in terms of pigeonholing and labelling others’ gender identity, when we just want to get on with our lives.

        1. Maggie*

          What actions/statements are making you feel that hate crimes would be committed against you? That is more concerning to me than trying to force pronouns.

          1. Being Dragged out of Closet*

            I can’t go too far into specifics without making myself identifiable. Essential forced to wear a pronoun badge will out me as not cis. We face a very specific kind of public where the level of violence would be deemed as unacceptable by any other trade standards. I do not want to paint a target on myself, when I already have been assaulted for being not white enough.

        2. The Unionizer Bunny*

          Is this a condition of existing/working in the job or is it just for optional workshops? Sorry, misplaced impulse – Australia isn’t the right place for me to be assuming the answers are helpful.

          Is there a union at your workplace? This would be the time to ask them about showing solidarity by ALL selecting “prefer not to say” rather than their cis-gender.

        3. Mad Harry Crewe*

          That sucks. As a queer person, I hate Mandatory Pronoun Sharing, For Inclusion, Don’t You Feel Included Now. There is a big difference between allowing someone to make a wrong assumption and speaking a lie about yourself.

          This might help? Before I was out at work, if pronoun sharing was happening, I said “I use female pronouns at work.” Very few people ever picked up on the specificity, they just heard “female pronouns” and went on with their days. But adding “at work” made it true – I *did* use female pronouns at work. The only other places I used them were the doctor’s office and my grandmother’s house, but it was still a truth rather than a lie.

          For the workshop signup, can you mentally adjust the question from “what is your FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH” to “what should other participants in this specific workshop use for you on specifically this day”?

          But again, I’m sorry – this sucks and I hate it for you.

            1. wavefunction*

              I do a similar thing—I say “she/her is fine” or “she/her works” for situations where those pronouns are the best option so I don’t have to lie. Just dropping the “I use” or “my pronouns are” part of it works for me.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I hate this for you. Yikes. Honestly, it’s kind of hard to do anything great in this situation. If you don’t disclose your pronouns, that makes you even more visible. If you disclose the wrong pronoun, you’re not really being true to yourself. Is there a pronoun you can throw out that wouldn’t be your actual pronoun but feels slightly truer than the one you’re feeling pressured to use? For example, if your pronouns are she/her and you feel pressure to use he/him, would they/them feel less off, even though it’s still off?

      1. Being Dragged Out of Closet*

        Being a They/Them, the likelihood to become target for harassment is very high here.

        1. linger*

          A few years ago I wrote this as a half-serious suggestion, because what you describe is a nightmare scenario, and there ought to be an escape strategy, and “you” technically counts as a pronoun, even if it’s probably not a response your org would accept.

          If pronouns are forced, then in lieu
          Of outing yourself, what to do?
          You may, if you’re able,
          Just say on your label
          You’re paid to respond to “(hey, you)”.

      2. a trans person*

        In situations like this, saying literally ANYTHING besides your assigned pronouns entails coming out as non-cis. This is exactly why pronouns must never be required. Letting people assume sucks less than misgendering yourself, at least for many of us.

    3. Snico*

      I feel ya. This was required at my work “to be inclusive” and we all had to change our email signature to show pronouns. I’m not out about my mixed-up feelings re: gender and language but I know being forced to put a pronoun makes me feel gross and I wish I didn’t have to. It’s like someone literally came down and said: SNICO YOU MUST CHOOSE A SIDE RIGHT NOW PUBLICLY FOR ALL TO SEE. Right now. Today. DO IT.

    4. MapleHill*

      See if you can find out where this directive is coming from and talk to the person leading it explaining these things. I got charged with starting up DEI efforts at my company and started collaborating with an industry group to share ideas and experiences. One of the companies started doing this, and I shared comments I’d read here on AAM which helped me see this perspective from people that may not feel safe or ready to share those pronouns or haven’t decided them. I think it comes from people with good intentions, but who may not realize some attempts at inclusion can back others into a corner. Hopefully these people are trying to continually learn, see other POV’s and bring in other voices, but help us, educate us, tell us if we make a misstep, we don’t want to make things worse for anyone!

      1. a trans person*

        This is not secret. It is not difficult to understand. Information about doing this right is literally everywhere online. Needing to come out at work is totally unreasonable to ask of the LW, and they can’t fix this without coming out. I guarantee it.

    5. Msd*

      I’m with you. I absolutely do not understand how a business thinks requiring people to out themselves is being inclusive. It must be a bunch of cis people who came up with this stupid idea.

    6. I'm A Little Teapot*

      The world isn’t fair, nor is it perfect. Should it be safe for you to be out? Yes. But if its not, it’s ok to be safe. It’s not wrong for you to list a pronoun which will keep you safe, even though it’s not the right one for you. It doesn’t change who you are, it doesn’t change your gender, it doesn’t invalidate the pronoun you use outside of work. It doesn’t make what’s happening there right. You don’t have to be happy about the situation. You can look for other jobs, you can try to change the culture where you are, you can keep your head down. Your life, your choice.

      I hope that things improve so that it is safe for you to be out. In the meantime, I’m not going to judge you if you choose to be safe.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        I agree. If it’s not safe to be out, lie. Do whatever keeps you safe, and you don’t owe your job your identity.

        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          Came here to say this. Just lie. You’re not out anyway, right?
          What an awful predicament.

    7. Nesprin*

      Is it a drop down menu or a fill in the blank? If fill in the blank put _____ and see if it takes it. If dropdown, do you know who built the system? Can you ask them to put an empty field?

    8. RagingADHD*

      When management makes it clear that they require everyone to engage in meaningless box-checking, then you meaninglessly check the box.

      They demand people post their status on a feelings chart? You say you’re “Awesome!”

      They want to see passion and enthusiasm for your work? You use more exclamation points and 2010’s girl boss blogspeak.

      They demand pronouns, put whatever pronouns will make people shut up and leave you alone.

      A paycheck is compensation for your work, and that is all. Your truth belongs to you, and only you get to decide when and how to share it.

      1. Being Dragged out of Closet*

        Thank you for this. I like the other posters’ comments on permission to lie given the context, I do feel that you have pointed out another facet, that this goes being me being a coward, and goes into the territory of given the unreasonable request, see it as malicious compliance.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          It is 100% an unreasonable request!

          Semi-related story that might give you a chuckle – I was still on the fence about coming out at work, and my team did a “if you could pick any name, would you keep your current one or pick a new one” icebreaker at a coworker’s baby shower. I said “I don’t actually feel like lying *or* coming out today, so I’ll just say that I like [walletname] just fine. It’s not my only name, but it is one of my names and I am satisfied with it.” There was a moment of ‘oh heck this was supposed to be light-hearted’ silence and then the next person went. My grandboss and great-grandboss both reached out right after the meeting to apologize, assure me that they’d be more thoughtful about this kind of icebreaker in the future, and let me know that I had their full support if I ever changed my mind.

          I knew this was a place where I was safe to say that, which so often isn’t the case. It was so satisfying to return awkward to sender rather than taking it on myself, felt like a lungfull of fresh air.

          1. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

            Yeah, what Mad Harry Crewe describes is also what I do, as a person whose accurate pronouns are basically none. I don’t want to have a whole identity conversation with business acquaintances. Even when it’s not actually dangerous, it’s not practical or socially appropriate.

            I’ll say “[whatever most people are assuming anyway] is fine” or “Let’s go with [situationally appropriate low friction name/ title/ pronouns] for this” or “anything except ‘it’ ” or something like that.

            When the situation is generally safe but I still don’t want to get into personal disclosure, I’ve occasionally offered to “let them” use a different set of pronouns than the ones they assume for me, or no pronouns just my name, “for practice so it feels comfortable and natural when it’s important to get it right” implying not for me, for someone else — signalling my acceptance without outing myself.

            Similarly, I’ll educate them about the problems for “some people” in being pressured or required to disclose more personal information than is safe or comfortable, or expecting one line on a nametag or email signature carry the weight of a whole relationship-specific personal conversation.

        2. RagingADHD*

          You are not a coward. There’s a huge difference between cowardice and pragmatism. Putting a target on your back in this situation would not help anyone.

          Save the self-sacrifice for when there’s something to gain or someone to save.

          1. I'm A Little Teapot*

            This! If anything, the people being so intolerant are the cowards, because they’re not brave enough to be ok with people who are different.

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          There’s nothing, NOTHING, cowardly about privacy or safety. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise does not have your best interests at heart.

        4. a trans person*

          It is never wrong to stay closeted. Lying about your own pronouns or gender is literally never unethical if you’re trans. Survive.

    9. Esmae*

      Do you have any cis coworkers you’d trust to help you push back? It’s (obviously) much easier to push back against pressure like this for someone who’s not personally worried about being outed.

    10. the cat's pajamas*

      This sucks. I’m not in Australia but I’ve heard another option where people use their name as a pronoun, maybe that would be a good halfway compromise?

    11. the quiet quitter strikes again*

      I’m not out as trans at work (though there are Signs and I’m sure a few people have picked up on them). In a previous, much more conservative office, I was in a similar situation as you. There was growing pressure to put pronouns in signatures, and there was no way I could bring myself to either constantly trigger my anxiety and dysphoria by doing what felt like lying so frequently throughout the day, or outing myself to my openly transphobic supervisor (who was the director of HR to boot). There really wasn’t a win there, I just did my best to avoid the conversation as much as possible. When a coworker asked me about it repeatedly, I did finally say that it didn’t do any favors to trans people to make pronouns another box to check, and they stopped asking. I think just cheerfully thanking people when they “remind” you and then not doing it may be the best bet. My current workplace is much more accepting (though I’m having a hard time trusting workplaces generally to be normal on this front after all I’ve seen), so now I list my pronouns as “any”, which I think most people read as me being apathetic. And for now that will have to do; I’m simply not ready to take on all the bs of being openly nonbinary at work just yet, even in a “progressive” workplace. So you have my sympathies and I hope we both find ourselves on kinder shores someday soon.

      1. Being Dragged out of Closet*

        Thank you. This is exactly it, you articulated it so much better than what I could. I think this is all I can do at this point. It also doesn’t help that I’m an immigrant and culturally not a westerner. I dread the eventual cis westerners want to school me about the existence of… well, me.

        1. the quiet quitter strikes again*

          Ugh, god, that’s a whole ‘nother layer of nonsense I can’t really speak to helpfully as I’m white. Because yeah, I was afraid people would read my reticence as a negative attitude towards inclusion, and I’m cringing at the thought of a “helpful” white coworker trying to “educate” you on your own identity in the name of enlightened western progressivism. Blech. I’m sorry. What worked for me was signaling acceptance in other ways (being friendly with out coworkers, talking about gay friends and family members positively, “my friend and his boyfriend went hiking with me this weekend,” that kind of thing). But in practice I just don’t know how much that tactic really helps one navigating “polite” racism/colonialist thinking at work.

        2. Gathering Moss*

          As another Aussie, I’m so sorry, it sucks. And you’re right, it’s unlikely to be a good idea to be honest here. In situations like this, I tend to just decide that my worksona is straight, or neurotypical, or cis, or whatever the safest option is in the situation, and leave it at that. Work isn’t owed my true self, and it usually doesn’t actually want it either, so that’s that.
          My worksona also likes using the company buzzwords, enjoys the back-and-forth of marketing wishes vs compliance requirements and can cheerfully cope with changing priorities that result in lots of unnecessary work. Is any of that true for non-work Moss? Not really, but that’s not relevant for work-Moss.

    12. call me wheels*

      I don’t have advice for most of it but for myself when I’m in situations I don’t want to use my preferred pronouns but I’m being asked directly, I use a phrasing of like ‘she/her is fine thanks’ or similar. Not technically saying those ARE my pronouns but saying that is what I’m wanting that person to use in this situation. Mentally it makes it a bit easier to deal with. May not work for everything but yeah. Sorry your workplace sounds tough

    13. Festively Dressed Earl*

      One more vote for not risking your safety just so that your workplace can have another background dancer in their performative diversity. And also one more vote for letting the source of the pressure know why it’s unsafe. If your employer truly cares about their queer employees, they can focus on your safety first; pronouns come second.

    14. pademelon*

      I’m so sorry about this pressure from your workplace. I’m also in metro Australia but my conservative workplaces are about 20 years behind everyone else so I’ll be long gone by the time they broach pronouns there. I’m white so can’t speak to the racism aspect and how it intersects with transphobia for you.

      I can legally be discriminated against and sacked by my employers if I’m out. And I really need to earn a living, so I won’t come out at work. I treat it as part of my work persona that I’m cis/het, and think of it as what I need to do to take care of myself rather than a personal failing or letting down other people in a similar situation.

      There’s no way I’d join a LGBTQA+ group at work (if such a thing even existed there) or approach a union rep about this because it would again put me at risk of losing my job.

      Despite the trendy ads with they/thems (all super funky! such cool, attractive, young, hip people!) I think most workplaces here are going to be transphobic and incredibly difficult to navigate for quite some time, until the most conservative people leave or retire.

      If you don’t out yourself with your real pronouns in this situation, but stay safe by fibbing and using cis pronouns, I think everyone who supports and loves you would understand why.

      1. pademelon*

        I wanted to add that I’m so sorry you’ve been assaulted for not being white enough. I know that’s not the focus of your post but it fucking sucks that racists feel secure enough to do such a thing.

    15. kalli*

      Your city is going to be relevant here and it can even vary within a larger metro area or between industries. If it’s conservative in any way it can absolutely be harder as an immigrant too – I swear some of the posh conservatives treat any kind of ‘other’ as exponential.

      I was the first in my conservative but left-leaning legal environment to have not-cis pronouns. I have only disclosed my pronouns and not my gender, and when I got my change of gender and change of name certificates I told payroll for tax reasons and said I didn’t want to change anything – in part because someone had just changed their name due to marriage and despite their email and login not changing (just their initial marker in our software package) their email broke for several weeks and now, even two years later, people keep getting their email wrong or making a big deal about how they didn’t know their new email (still firstname@company.au). Most people who change their names in our area have had to keep their previous name in their signature in order for people to get it and keep their first name because that’s their login. I did not want to deal with that.

      Giving my pronouns was a reflex action on my first day – someone used ‘she’ in chat and I was just like ‘my pronouns are they/them’ and immediately went ‘ohno’ in my head. However, work are the only people who’ve never made a mistake to my face. I put my pronouns in my signature and other people followed, and since I started there’s only been one other person using nonstandard pronouns and one further person out as not cisstraight. We all went to their birthday party at an LGBTQIA+ venue where I was promptly assumed cishet and hit on accordingly by very many straight men, but also had a fun time talking makeup with a drag queen.

      At the same time, our software lets us mark contacts with X if they’re not male or female, and doesn’t contain any neutral titles or fields to add them to correspondence. We conspicuously never have clients who aren’t cis. I do not work on-site and people legitimately forget I exist, a lot of which might be out of sight out of mind and may not necessarily be that I’m not ‘one of the girls’ (and our admin team, including me, are collectively referred to as ‘the girls’ by certain of the male staff, so I do not talk to them and they ignore me so I pretend it doesn’t actually include me), but I do occasionally have issues with coworkers and I don’t get included in social things unless I insert myself proactively. As I said, our software identifies people by initials, so the only other thing I do is when I have to write my initials, I use first-middle-last while the system thinks I’m middle-last. We have other people with three initials, either they’re a Mc*, O’* or D’*, one of their names has two letters, or there are two people with the same first-last and the second gets a middle included, so it doesn’t look startlingly out of place, but people can get used to me having a new name… slowly…. until it does have a way for me to change my login without the issues people have when they are cishet and change their name.

      This is in a larger environment where I’ve been rejected from roles with “you’d be perfect in a city office, just not ours” and “you’re too alternative” type feedback even if I dress conservatively and don’t protest she/her and haven’t gotten to ID verification.

      So from me, thinking of the environment I am in (law, Adelaide) and have interviewed in (law, Sydney and Melbourne), the thing I would ask you is whether you’re comfortable with how people read you and if you can survive by not declaring. At this stage, it doesn’t sound compulsory, as in you wouldn’t have to lie and put the wrong pronouns on everything, just there’s a pressure to perform inclusivity by declaring cis pronouns. I wouldn’t do that, just let people use whatever pronouns they guess based on your presentation, and if anyone asks directly, take the ‘people can refer to me by name’ route (which is still imperfect and can be read as performative or anti- just as much as declare-but-only-cis can, but doesn’t require you to commit and put yourself at risk) and promote declaring as remaining optional. It doesn’t sound like your organisation is anywhere near being able to commit to Rainbow Tick, but if you can promote the ACON Welcome Here project, that might be a way of getting education on site without anyone having to put themselves at personal risk.

      I would also recommend joining your union. Pretty much all but the CFMEU are very much better at inclusion and diversity promotion than most workplaces, and they can support you and your queer colleagues in navigating and agitating for change (such as a more formal DEI panel or inclusion officer) as part of their general campaigning, instead of making it actually about y’all, which gives you a lot of cover.

      Meanwhile, if you are outward facing and dealing with clients, there’s nothing stopping you making other signals to clients to let them know you personally are safe – for example, when I changed my name at the bank the manager was like ‘sorry, our system is too old and change here is super slow, these are the options for titles, which one is closest to what you’d like’ and not ‘sorry we can’t put non-binary in our system so you’ll still get Miss K on your statements’.

  12. Potential Job Hopper*

    Should I stay or should I go?

    I started a new role at a very large, very reputable company a month ago that was a perfect fit on paper. I did everything you’re supposed to do to vet the workplace culture (checked backchannel references, asked direct questions about WLB, had an extra meeting with the hiring manager before I signed to learn more about their management style).

    In spite of all that, it turns out the company misrepresented the job description and workplace culture. I’m the only woman in an all-male environment with colleagues who regularly work 10-12 hour days. (I’m a single mom – 10-12 hour days are not doable.) My first assignment is a project that’s doomed to fail, and I’ve learned that the last failed project resulted in multiple firings. And I spend most of my time writing and rewriting status updates instead of actually doing the work I was hired to do.

    I’m sure the situation is salvageable to an extent – they hired me for a reason, and my sense is that they know they need to change the workplace culture. But I might have an opportunity to jump ship to a different role I turned down a few months ago. I have contacts at this new company and I know the work life balance is better, although of course I’d ask more deliberate questions if I get a written offer.

    Would I be a terrible person if I left this job after just a month? I know I should give it a fair shot, but I just cannot make the schedule work with my family commitments. I don’t think the misrepresentation was sinister, but I am a bit annoyed that they pitched a completely different role than the one I’m expected to perform. I don’t have the time or energy to be the token woman who swoops in and changes everything.

    2. chickia*

      it’s completely fair to jump ship after a month if the job was misrepresented! And for future, just leave it off your resume. It wasn’t a good fit, better fix it as soon as you can rather then being stuck there for 6 mo, 1 year or longer! you are not a terrible person; you have every right to be annoyed. They LIED to you about work/life balance! 10 hour workdays are not work/life balance! They don’t deserve your suffering while you wait for them to fix this (if they ever do). explore your options and get out if you can, and if you are sure it will be a better fit.

    3. Mothy*

      I started a new job six months ago, and I felt very much like you’re describing after the first month. What I can say is, I 100% wish I had tried to jump ship earlier instead of staying to see if things would change/I could make a difference. For me, it has only gotten more draining to be in such a difficult environment, and that draining of energy has made it much harder to look for other opportunities. If you have a chance to get out now, I think you should take it.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        I think this is really important to consider. For every long/late day you’re dipping into your reserves of energy, overdrafting your parenting/household emotional budget, and likely kicking other responsibilities down the road.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Yep! Even if you were hired to help improve their culture, it’s not your job to fix their problems.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          And if it was, THAT’S what the job should have been represented as. Not “welcome to our bookkeeping department, and by the by, we need you to reverse engineer the ponies so their poop isn’t piling up so much.”

    5. I strive to Excel*

      Nope. Having 10-12 hour days instead of what you signed up for is in and of itself a reason to give when leaving. If you feel it would be safe to give them an honest exit interview, that would from my perspective be the last “obligation” you owe them. Even then, that’s only if you feel they’ve created an environment where you can tell them the truth and they’d listen.

    6. Fuzzyfuzz*

      Given everything you’ve said here, I would move on to something that’s a better fit if you have the chance and not feel guilty about it. If you leave after just a few months, you can leave it off of your resume and no one will bat an eye in the future. As you’ve said, this is the kind of place that fires employees quickly and you feel on edge and at risk. None of this is good for you. Move on and up!

    7. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      If you have the opportunity to go to a different company, then go with a clear conscience. The current company deliberately misled you (malicious or not is irrelevant) and they can take the consequences of that deception.

      It’s likely you will burn bridges with them, so you may decide that it’s not worth it, but you leaving because the role is quite different from what was advertised is 100% justifiable in leaving.

    8. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I know I should give it a fair shot, but I just cannot make the schedule work with my family commitments.

      You are under no obligation whatsoever to “give it a fair shot.” You have to look out for yourself and your family; if this looks dodgy and you have a more viable alternative, take it and expunge this one from your résumé.

      It’s just business, and they would lay you off with less consternation than you’re feeling if circumstances dictated it.

    9. MsSolo (UK)*

      Go. If they can’t grasp that 10-12 hour days isn’t a good WLB (or worse, don’t realise that their staff are working 10-12 hour days!) you’re going to keep tripping over other really obvious things they haven’t grasped aren’t compatible with how the majority of people actually function. Get out while your professional norms are still intact.

    10. ampersand*

      You would not be a terrible person for leaving what sounds kind of like a dumpster fire (or dumpster fire waiting to happen). Especially as a single mom–you have to do what’s best for you/your family, and sounds like this isn’t it!

    11. Antilles*

      I’m sure the situation is salvageable to an extent – they hired me for a reason, and my sense is that they know they need to change the workplace culture.
      You might be sure, but I’m not.

      They misrepresented the workplace culture even when you specifically vetted it; that makes me question if they even realize what their workplace culture actually is. You’ve been there a month and can already recognize the project is doomed to fail; that’s wild given that most jobs you’d still be the newbie settling in. People work 10-12 hour days and are still apparently failing projects massively enough that it causes multiple firings. They clearly didn’t learn anything from their “last failed project that resulted in firings” given that they’re wasting your time on meaningless status updates.

      Nothing you’ve written here convinces me they really are committed to the hard work of completely changing their culture.

    12. DrSalty*

      No you’re not a terrible person for leaving. The job was misrepresented! You owe these people nothing!

    13. Observer*

      Would I be a terrible person if I left this job after just a month? I know I should give it a fair shot,

      Nope and Nope.

      As someone said in the thread just above, your job is an exchange of your labor for a paycheck. So you do owe it to your employer to do the best work that you can *while you are there*. But unless the employer has done something extraordinary for you, you don’t owe them anything more than that. In this case, not only did they not do anything special for you, they acted poorly to you. Misrepresentation is a real problem. And while it may not have been *malicious*, it seems pretty deliberate. And that’s a major no-no.

      So, if you have another option, go with a clear conscience.

    14. Bast*

      Completely fair to jump ship! Misrepresenting the hours alone would be enough for me to leave (10-12 hour days regularly are not sustainable for me either, especially if I went in expecting a standard 8 hour day) but the culture also doesn’t sound particularly inviting. It leaves you wondering what ELSE was left out/misrepresented.

    15. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      They’ll never change until there are consequences for their not-so-great culture. People leaving after a month is a definite consequence.

    16. Chauncy Gardener*

      Oh my. Flee if you have the chance!
      They’ve already misrepresented a bunch of things. You owe them nothing.

    17. Potential Job Hopper*

      Thanks for the advice, everyone! I’m feeling much less guilty now about talking to another company. It’s funny how quickly your sense of professional norms can warp in an unstable work environment. Hoping I get good news next week, but I will stay optimistic regardless.

    20. Fluff*

      As you are looking for a job, you now have a great answer and question for the interviews.

      “Why are you looking?”

      I was hired for X with the expectation of Y projects and a generally routine M-F schedule. Once I started, I realized they need someone who could work 12 hours days on a regular basis including projects unrelated to the role I was meant to fill.

      What is the expected schedule and typical work week like for the role?

    21. goddessoftransitory*

      Go.

      Your last sentence says it all. You aren’t supposed to be Underdog Is Here! instead of the title you thought you were getting. And if they actually want to change the culture they need to do that themselves, not set you up for failure while hoping you “inspire” the guys to do–what, exactly?

      That’s not what you signed on for, and not where you should spend your energy.

    22. Spacedog*

      Been there. The longer I stayed, the more the job took a toll on my physical and mental health.

      Its so sad how many companies blatantly misrepresent jobs, and NOTHING can be done.

      I hope you find something else.

  13. Severance Snape*

    Okay, I really need some advice. My nonprofit org is really circling the drain (has been for a long time, recently accelerating). I have been looking for a new job but it’s tough as what I do is niche. Lately, the board and members have been openly discussing closing down on calls that I (staff) am on, and acting quite casually about it. Nobody has said anything to me about severance or what would happen to my job – obviously, I’m assuming I’d be laid off at that time, but I haven’t been laid off yet, nor given any kind of end date. It’s puzzling to me as we do have funds to get us through at least the end of the year, yet they are acting like they might just want to close now (they may want to raid the funds we have and redistribute them to other groups we work with. How nice for other people who aren’t me). I get upset on these calls and wish they wouldn’t talk about it like that in front of me, particularly when they don’t even act like it’s a bad thing while they’re discussing ending my employment. Is it possible for me to say anything to remind them it’s my livelihood they’re discussing? Can I cut off the “maybe we can reallocate these funds (that pay my salary) to X other group” with any kind of “actually I’d like to keep my job”?

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I would probably frame it as “I’ve heard a lot of talk about closing down lately, and I have to admit it’s upsetting to me to think that my job may be ending soon. Can we please talk frankly about what kind of timeline and what kind of severance are in play for those of us who work full time here and will be losing our jobs if the organization shuts down? I’m sure I’m not the only person feeling concerned about this.”

    2. Yes And*

      First of all, this sucks, and I’m sorry.

      The board’s primary responsibility is fiscal and compliance oversight of the organization in service of its mission. If they don’t see a viable path forward for the organization, it’s their job to plan for an orderly transition and dissolution. And if any assets are left over after the organization has settled all of its obligations, the law requires those assets to be transferred to other nonprofit organizations.

      None of that stops them from looking out for the welfare of their employees, including severance for those who are laid off – but only if they have sufficient unrestricted funds for that. The funding that you say they have through the end of the year may not be allowed to be used for that purpose.

      The only way I see the board as erring here is in having these discussions in front of staff who are (it sounds like) not going to be involved in the orderly dissolution. That’s callous, and I’m sorry you’re being put through that. But I don’t think you can ask them not to have these conversations. The best you can do is ask to be excused from them. And at least you have advance warning, and can begin to plan your next move.

      1. Severance Snape*

        It’s a mess here (I mean, obviously, that’s how we got into this state) with me still being asked to start new initiatives or file paperwork for next year by different people, and in some cases asked to make personal sacrifices (work this weekend event or receive deliveries at your home which has me sitting about twiddling my thumbs on my time off) that I would accept if it was part of a sustainable job but refuse if I knew the axe was actually falling. I guess they have no incentive to tell me anything until the minute they want to be rid of me.

        1. Yes And*

          So it sounds like they’re making contingency plans, where they either shut down or don’t? If there’s any doubt as to whether they will shut down, they should be planning for both cases, and that includes keeping up/advancing the organization’s work as best they can.

          Your boss presumably knows you’re on these calls – can you ask them for a frank conversation about the path forward and your role in it?

          1. Paint N Drip*

            it seems like they (management/board) are open to having frank conversations, so I second that!

        2. Mad Harry Crewe*

          I think you should start refusing the personal sacrifices. You’re very likely to lose your job soon. Don’t do anything that you’d regret if you got laid off a week later without severance.

    3. Hyaline*

      Wow, that is so incredibly callous of these board members! You are a human person who relies on this job for their livelihood–for them to ignore that and talk about “how we’re going to shut down and reallocate our resources” when no conversation has yet happened with affected employees is IMO really gross. Yes, it’s their job and yes they have to consider fiscal realities and how to adhere to laws and charters…but there are ways to address the impacts on their own staff. But it’s also giving you the writing on the wall. The board is not necessarily here to help you. If you want to advocate for severance or other cushions for you and those you work with, it looks like now’s the time to start meeting with people who have some kind of leverage on that. I wouldn’t do that in the meetings you describe (these people seem not only callous but clueless if they’d bring this up so cavalierly, so shutting it down benefits you less than letting them talk and hear their plans IMO), but would raise the issue with the appropriate people. I don’t know who that is in your org, but raising the issue of “It seems very clear to me from recent conversations that the board intends to close this organization. If that’s inevitable at this point, it’s only fair that we begin to make plans to help our employees transition.”

    4. AnonForThisOne*

      This absolutely sucks and I get it.

      But, as I learned during COVID, before laying off 350+ people you have numerous calls ABOUT laying off 350 people. And you plan. And you discuss. And you ponder if there are any creative ways you haven’t thought of to avoid it. And then yet another contractor you work with cuts more services because COVID and planes/airport employees aren’t a good mix.

      I don’t think they are unaware people are losing jobs, but it’s a business and sometimes conversations are awful but need to happen and that the subject matter is awful doesn’t mean they don’t happen.

      To me it sounds like they are trying to decide how to close down in the best way possible and presumably they will also be out jobs. You can say something, but at the end of the day, you actually WANT people who are focusing on business and not emotions in charge of business decisions that impact tons of people.

    5. Fairy*

      Veteran nonprofit person with frank talk.
      You need to focus 100% on getting another job now. They probably won’t give you much severance. You can’t get personal about it now. Just focus on your next steps. Start networking, get on linked in, fist off your resume. Imagine this as a secret memo you saw by mistake.
      I’m so sorry.

  14. Nervous*

    Hi all! I’m currently in my first professional job post-college (I’ve been here for four months), but unfortunately it is looking like I will have to leave my current job to get medical treatment. The recovery period for the procedure will likely take one to two months, and it is not at all likely that I would be able to keep my employment/return to my job afterwards (company is too small for things like fmla to apply + I haven’t been here long enough to have any type of leave).

    Has anyone else had a disruption to their early career like this? I’m really struggling with the thought of having a long gap, and I’m not sure that I’ll be able to return to my current field/job-type depending on the outcome of my treatment. I realize with so many unknowns, it’s hard to give specific advice, but any support would be very appreciated.

    1. Fuzzyfuzz*

      Yes–I had cancer and was in treatment in my mid-20s, right after I finished grad school. It did push back my own personal ‘timeline,’ as I didn’t work FT for about 2 years. But, when I was able, I did part-time and contract work in a field related to mine for a bit less than a year. I was able to leverage this experience to find FT job when I was ready. I have been in remission for 14 years and have moved up the chain considerably. Moral of the story: I won’t say it wasn’t disruptive at the beginning, but I recovered professionally (and medically! :)). I am sorry you are dealing with this, but please know you are not alone.

    2. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

      Having these kinds of gaps is super super super normal. I had one myself and I’m doing very well now. There were definitely some financially and emotionally difficult years as I struggled to break back into the professional work force while I worked retail to pay the bills, but that was more about the shortage of truly entry level work and my own misconceptions about the job market than about a gap.

      I hope your treatment is effective and as easy as it can be. Sending good vibes!

    3. EMP*

      If you like this job, I think it’s worth asking about medical leave even if they aren’t obligated to under FMLA! It can’t hurt to ask.
      And in regards to a gap, having a gap right out of college is a great time to have a resume gap, since there’s kind of no expectation to have something there anyway.

      1. Severance Snape*

        Keep in mind, some forms of medical leave aren’t even necessarily paid (as I recall, anyway) so you’re not asking them to give you big bucks, but you might be asking them to hold your job for you for a month or maybe (?) let you stay on the insurance plan. I’d like to hear from others who are more knowledgeable on this, as it’s been a long time since I dealt with it. I now work for a company too small to qualify so they can offer whatever they like but are still sometimes willing to work with you.

        1. Nervous*

          I’m fortunate in this case that because I’m under 26, I’ll be able to switch to my parents’ medical insurance, which is better than the coverage in my current job, so insurance isn’t a major concern for me at the moment. My job isn’t super reasonable in general (which could be a whole different thread!), so I don’t think any type of unpaid medical leave would be an option for me.

          1. Nesprin*

            It’s still worth asking- they’ve got requirements by law in the US that they must hold your job without retaliation. You may find you don’t want to stick around, but you have the rights to ask for this and to sue if they don’t comply.

            2. Seashell*

              The law in the US only applies to private employers if they employ 50 people or more. Sounds like it is too small of a company to have any requirements, unless there are state laws that apply.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yes, definitely talk to your manager about this. Many companies, even small ones, would be understanding (even if your leave has to be unpaid). 1-2 months feels like forever but it’s really not in the long run. It will probably take them longer than that to hire someone new! So I encourage you to have the discussion– you may come out of it with one less thing to worry about.

        1. Severance Snape*

          This is the cold hard truth. They can hire someone within a month or two, but they’re probably not going to get them up and running at your level, so they may have incentive to keep you on the books, and particularly if they’re not losing money it could be worth asking. Also, they have a (slight) interest in not appearing heartless to other employees/customers, and “oh we let Nervous go the moment we found out they were ill” might sound bad. Partly it depends on whether your work can be put on hold at all/how hard it would be for coworkers to cover for you while you’re out without them having to hire a temp.

        2. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Agreed, they may be willing to work with you on holding your job, even if you don’t get to keep benefits or take any pay.

      3. Jamie Starr*

        If even OP isn’t eligible for FMLA, they might be qualified for short- or long-term disability. I don’t think all companies offer Long Term, but I think Short Term might be a requirement in certain states. I’m also not sure if there’s a requirement for having to work at the company a certain amount of time before it can be used. It’s not a ton of money, because it’s based on your previous wages and has a cap, but may be worth looking into.

    4. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Agree with talking to your manager. Our office would choose, in most cases, to bring someone back rather than hire new if we knew the absence would be that short. Not qualifying for FMLA does not mean you can not have an unpaid leave. Or potentially they may need to have you quit and reapply, but many will do whatever they can to not go through the growing pains of rehiring and retraining.

  15. ampersand*

    As a follow up to yesterday’s question about including your address on your resume: does everyone’s cover letter header match their resume header? Is that still the norm? I’m updating both of mine to remove my home address and only include city/state. I was a little bit horrified when I read the comment yesterday that said having your address on your resume dates you, so I’ll just be changing that now! I appreciate that point of view–I’m in my mid-40s and don’t want to knowingly do anything that works against me when job hunting.

    1. Tiger Shark*

      That one was timely for me as I was just debating changing my resume from my full address to just general location. I’ve always had it as a formality despite having been working since 2009 and never once being contacted by an employer about a job application through mail. I do though have my cover letter and resume headers matching, I think it just looks more put together unless there’s some sort formatting or submission form they require instead.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Funny! I think I removed my address around 2009. And I have never used it when applying for an internal job. HR knows how to find me!

    2. Maple Hill*

      eh as someone who screens thousands of resumes a year, tons of people still have their address on their resume. And I know a lot of managers that do want to see it because of commutes in major metro areas where people frequently claim they are ok with the 1-1.5 hour one-way commute until they have to do it and leave in a year. I don’t care about street address, but I would like to have zip code for this reason though.

      Based on things I’ve seen over the years….On cover letters and emails, don’t overthink who you’re addressing it to. Dear Sir will definitely date you (why do you assume it’s a sir?), but I really don’t care who it’s sent to otherwise. To whom it may concern is fine. Don’t mail your resume and cover letter, omg, that will date you for sure. I can’t believe people still do this, but some do and it goes right in the shredder. Keep your resume to 2 pages no matter how much experience you have. I’m not reading your 7 page resume going back to the 70s!

    3. Rex Libris*

      I think the comments about it dating you were a bit much. Keep in mind most of the people doing the hiring are going to be older than the people who think that’s a thing.

      I do think everything where you’re giving repeated information should match. Minimize the questions that the hiring manager will ask themselves about your material.

      As a manager myself, I do want at least city and state. If I’m hiring for an in-person job, and especially if someone that seems overqualified to me applies, or someone where I’m on the fence, I have more questions if they’re applying from the other side of the country. If they just don’t give me anything, I’m likely to shrug and pass over them if there isn’t some outstanding reason not to.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        “Keep in mind most of the people doing the hiring are going to be older than the people who think that’s a thing.”

        I don’t know if you meant it this way but I found this oddly worded and it sounds ageist. The hiring person is not necessarily going to be older than the person they are interviewing. Younger people can be managers and directors. Older people can be looking for work. The people who would be more inclined to add their full address are going to be 50+ (because that was more the norm when they were in school). There’s a good chance that the hiring manager could be younger, even 20+ years younger, than the candiate.

        1. Rex Libris*

          I simply meant that the majority of those hiring are probably going to be older than the majority of folks that think having an address on a resume somehow makes you seem ancient.

          What is ageist however, is assuming that anyone who puts their address on a resume is necessarily going to be over 50.

    4. Jamie Starr*

      Yes, my cover letter and resume formatting matches. I put just my full name, centered in the header (20 pt font size and bold), then follow business letter formatting for the cover letter (11 pt). My resume has my name the same way — centered, same font size, same top margin distance. I have a footer on both cover letter and resume that lists only my phone number and email (9.5 font size, not bold, same bottom margin difference). So if you were to print them out, the name and footer would function sort of like letter head.

      I include my email because even though applications are done online/by email — maybe the person looking at my application, or interviewing me wasn’t forwarded my application/wouldn’t have my email. I want to make it as easy as possible for anyone looking at my application to contact me if needed.

      I don’t list my address/city but I do have the city/state listed on my resume under each job so they can infer where I live from that. (Nationwide remote work doesn’t really apply to the places I’ve worked – but if I was applying somewhere that would require relocation I’d address that in my cover letter.)

    5. Laggy Lu*

      My cover letters don’t have a heading or anything. But my last paragraph is pretty much some variation of “I would welcome the opportunity to discuss my enthusiasm and qualifications for the Teapot Manager position. I can be reached at (phone) and (email).”
      I am currently job searching and it seems a lot of places are stripping all the personal info from the resumes and cover letters before anyone other than the original screeners see it, so I don’t think it matters much.

    6. kalli*

      Mine does, and I have a postal address but not my home address.

      While I usually send them both in the same document, if they are required to be separated or get separated after printing or my cover letter has to be copy pasted in the application but then I give a copy at interview etc., I feel like the consistency is helpful to quickly match them up, and it also speaks to my Word and presentation skills, at least that I’m able to understand the basic concept of branding and I can copy+paste or fake it.

  16. atomicfall49*

    I’m one of 7 team members, and currently our team leader position is vacant. I have put in for the role. There is also a team member role vacant. While the hiring process for the manager position is ongoing, the grand-boss has hired to backfill the team member. No preparation has been done for new team member’s start so when she arrives she will have a less than desirable onboarding process. I have vested interest in a positive onboarding experience for her because she’s either 1) my peer that will eventually come to me for onboarding support as I am senior team member or 2) my direct report if I am selected in the team leader role. I offered to help with onboarding and asked if there is anything I can do to assist with preparation for first day and was told to leave it to grand boss. There are piles of old product, personal desk decor, trash, etc. left behind on the desk she will inherit, no sign of her computer or office accessories having been ordered, no set up for her onboarding training in our systems. Not even a standard welcome meet and greet with the team has been set. I was told everything is covered (it’s not possible based on what I see), so I have to sit here and watch her have a first day/week full of red flags and getting the feeling I’ll have to inevitably pick up the pieces afterward.

    1. Parenthesis Guy*

      Reach out to her on your own. If you work in person, then make sure to stop by her desk and introduce yourself. Tell her if she has any questions, she can feel free to reach out. Use that to see how things are going. If meet and greets don’t get covered after a week or so, then set them up yourself.

      1. atomicfall49*

        Thank you, will be reaching out of course. I should add that the grand boss is micromanager and very sensitive to what he perceives as people “going around him”. I can reach out and talk to new hire of course and will do that, but I’m told to wait for grand boss to set up any and every thing. I just wish she wouldn’t have to show up to a trashed desk and inevitable confusion.

        1. Cordelia*

          I’d tidy up her desk a bit before she comes, that doesn’t need to be a manager’s role so you wouldn’t really be going around him. I’d also show her around, at least things like the bathroom and the kitchen, and introduce her to a few people.
          You can’t do much about her IT access etc without going around the grandboss, but you can at least ensure she is met by a friendly face and has somewhere reasonable to sit.

        2. MJ*

          Can you at least tidy the desk up the day before she starts if it’s still messy? Just getting rid of the trash and moving personal stuff to storage or somewhere else will be more welcoming that her having to clean up as soon as she arrives.

          And unofficial meet & greets over refilling coffee mugs work too. :)

  17. GLAM*

    I have a similar situation to the compliance letter from yesterday. I’m in records management at a government entity and responsible for ensuring we are compliant. The problem is records management laws is that there isn’t strong penalties and there isn’t required annual training. With that being said, my problem is less about people doing training and more in getting them to apply what they are learning, especially with file naming and filing. There’s 100 of them and only one of me, so I can only check and fix so much. Humans can be very inconsistent!

    I do individual training as part of the onboarding process and cater it to their role. We have done some specific training (in person, virtual, and self-guided learning), and managers have made that mandatory.

    Much of the records we create have a long retention and there can be variety in the types of files that they need to create. So it’s not a simple form or always the same specific and small number of files. Some packets have 1000s of files. Several of staff have experience in trying to dig older files and get overwhelmed in part because of inconsistent application of what got filed where, so there is an acknowledgment that it needs to be done better, but there’s still a long way to go.

    Any advice on keeping the momentum going to get people to apply their training? People see the value, but it’s not happening when it matters. Some are better than others, so I do try to focus on the worse offenders with follow-ups. We hope automation can help, but it has its limits (and AI is really stupid on this front).

    I’d say we have a tendency to hoard documents more than getting rid of something too soon. A lot of people wait until t soon he end of a process to do something and they can’t remember what was a draft or working document and what was the final document (there can be a lot of final-final in file names…some of which are not the actual final document).

    1. I strive to Excel*

      Here’s my advice!

      1. How easy is it to find and use the style guide showing how things should be named? Does the style guide have examples as to how to handle packets with ten files vs 10,000 files?

      2. How easy to use is the filing scheme? I’m dealing with a problem currently at work where projects are filed by project and then by year, which sounds very helpful except that there’s not a lot of clarity on what to do when a project started in a current year but is still active this year. So having a cheatsheet available for people to use when wondering “where do I file draft.final.10.a” can be useful.

      3. On a similar note – is there any way you can simplify the filing scheme? Especially if it’s digital (and thus searchable), maybe it’s easier to look through 20 files in a folder rather than looking through 20 files in 8 sub-folders, especially if you don’t know if it’s filed in the right spot.

      4. Are any of your better compliant people in management? Any chance you can get them to “lead the charge” by scheduling “filing hour” on Fridays once or twice a month? Sometimes having a bunch of people around you all doing the same tedious activity can be motivating.

      3.

      1. GLAM*

        Thanks for commenting!

        1. The file plan guidance is really easy to find and is linked in multiple places. We have removed all older versions across multiple storage locations. It’s gone over during individual onboarding trainings and our corporate trainer has a training on the overarching method (like go broad to small, yyyymmdd). It has examples for typical files in each folder. There’s more to expand, but it covers the more frequent situations. In our project management system, have tool tips that display the scope if each folder when you hover it. The difference between 10 and 1000s is you might not have as many of something like photos. The guidance for 1 photo is the same as naming each of 500 photos (I’m looking into making the latter a lot less painful).

        2. I’d say the current one is pretty fairly intuitive and people general mention it seems straightforward. We might tweak it slightly in the next funding cycle, but it would be to split one folder into common subcategories. I’d include scope notes on the guide and file plan template. It us a balancing act as we can’t spell out each possibility because otherwise it would be too long, didn’t read. The past templates are more of a mess, but that’s my problem to fix and I hope to user testing as we all have the same pain points in finding old projects as what is important with the project folder name when it us active is different than down the road.

        3. Not really. I get a decent amount of requests (I’m the only one with user permissions to create folders) to add folders, so I think it’s the opposite direction. I get requests for subfolders even though it’s just 5 files and file naming would do the heavy lifting. Some requests make sense, but people want a lot of customization. Before the lockdown, it was a pain unless you knew every tram members preferences. Filing is a problem, but file naming us probably the biggest issue. Searching is okay, but I’ve seen some odd file names. Even inconsistencies from the same person in the same project with the same document type (think meeting minutes).

        4. Kinda. Since paper is more visible, and that has gotten more attention with management, but I think there us room in thus front. we kinda tried to do this with mandatory training during the spring, but it got derailed with everyone having opinions (one group might want something that is a pain for another group). I’d like to try something similar, but structure it differently.

        I would say people were okay with the exercises in the last training, but there was like a vortex when it came to applying to actual filing and file naming.

        1. I strive to Excel*

          I’d say that you’ve identified something in #4 that might be worth pursuing – “one group might want something that is a pain for another group”. I suspect that part of your problem is that people don’t view this as “required formal business activity”, and rather “this is just something we do to make our lives easier”.

          Unfortunately I don’t have a good plan for dealing with that beyond getting management to back you up when you say “you are required to follow our style and file naming guide as part of government compliance. If you have any suggestions or feedback, send it to ‘feedback4GLAM@email.com’, but for now this is what we are doing”. Compliance things are very hard to get rolling if the management won’t back you up in enforcing and encouraging it.

          1. GLAM*

            Yes, four seems the most promising. We have developing a feedback system, but also saying we are only changing the file plan every two years to avoid constant changes that increase confusion. We’d have a tracking system as some suggestions would have different levels of vetting (announcement, vetting within a job class, or entity wide).

            In my situation, people do see it as a formal business activity. Training was suggested by multiple people at an all hands meeting rather than a suggestion from me. So we have the encouragement element. Enforcement and application is the issue.

            They technically can’t close the project until I do a review and I’m baked into the process at the end. And part of their metrics. But I have to pick my battles and end up focusing on making sure the key documents are there and named okay enough. A related problem is the checkpoint is at the end. We tried to have me at some milestones, but that never got any traction and management realized that there is no way for me to have this capability long term, so it should fall on every individual. Since we are a government body, we have to ask our governing body to add positions. Records management, HR, IT, and others tend to get cut by as it goes up the chain when other departments are asking for positions more visibly part of the mission.

            I think people realize what I am up against and see it as important. The issue is that people will do something to try to fix the issue and minimize my load. Some suggestions and work has been helpful (like an expansion on file naming, except they don’t even follow their own guidance), but some have been very gung-ho initiatives to overhaul the whole thing. They mean well, but they sometimes struggle when I try to get them to follow the guidance and process.

            Admittedly I lean into the we do this to make our lives easier because we see no punishment from high ranking officials when they flaunt records management activities.

      2. TPS Reporter*

        can you conduct a regular spot audit where you randomly select a few records then give specific feedback to the user?

        1. GLAM*

          Yes? We tried a pilot where I’d do a review at a specific milestone, but we dropped it for reasons. My boss has done audits in the past and shared with the other managers. Usually the result is this should be improved, we’d do better next time. There usually is some improvement for a few weeks, but nothing long term. I could see happening, as I’ve witnessed it in another way, is that people would expect me to tell them what and how to correct rather than following guidance and training.

    2. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

      I don’t have any advice since I am definitely part of the same problem at my org. I will only say that it’s a low lift to follow file management norms that already exist, but if everyone else’s files are chaos too it’s a really heavy lift to take time and energy to implement a totally new strategy on my own. When I’m already behind on so many things, it’s just really hard to convince myself of the importance of records management.

      I know it’s important! Especially since we have 1 records manager and like 700 staff. But god it’s hard to take the time when no one else is and I’m already drowning.

      Anyway, following this in case someone else has good advice.

    3. GreenShoes*

      How realistic is a check in procedure? It sounds like not a manual one, but surely there’s a software solution that checks file name formats?

      1. GLAM*

        I don’t think it’s realistic with our workload to have a constant check-in procedure. Maybe 10 years ago, but not today and the workload keeps increases as do the complexity of the files. I’ve encouraged people to remind their coworkers of file naming. Many loop me into the discussions, though sometimes they don’t like my answer.

        We have some processes that standardize some files. But that doesn’t help with files mother related to a defined process. Software is really bad as it tends to focus on the wrong thing. It can help with batch renaming, but it still involves manual work from the human to tell it what to look for.

    4. Grits McGee*

      GLAM, I hope it’s not too late for you to see this- I do a ton of RM work at the federal level and it is so, so challenging in an environment where there are serious laws and regulations to follow but very little in the way of real consequences.

      You are already doing a lot of the things I recommend records managers do: training, regularly updating file plans, being present and visible to records owners. Some other things you might try-
      1. If you have annual mandatory agency training (ex- cyber security, ethics, etc) try to get RM included with it. Put knowledge check questions at the end that must be answered correctly in order to get credit for completing the training.
      2. Periodic designated records clean up days. Our office sets aside 2 days every 6 months to do records management. However, I think you could improve on what we do by identifying specific tasks or projects, and assigning them to offices or individuals, rather than leaving it up to individual staff to determine how they want to celebrate records clean up day.
      3. I see you do training for onboarding, but what about offboarding? Catching individual departing employees to talk about how to leave behind their records can be difficult (esp when they’re high level), but working RM into retirement offboarding should be doable.
      4. Is it possible to build a network of records management SMEs across offices? (In the federal government we call these positions RM “liaisons”.) In my experience this really only works if staff truly volunteer, and aren’t being volun-told. If there’s a way to incentivize participation, like a bonus or time off award, then you may get more interested or enthusiastic candidates.

      If all else fails- I have to say, nothing makes agencies take records management seriously like a major public scandal that attracts Congressional attention… But seriously, good luck and Godspeed. You’re fighting an uphill battle, but future users of your records be grateful.

  18. JFC*

    My boss told me something yesterday that still has me scratching my head, and I’m wondering if it’s BS or there’s something to it.

    Her partner has been out of work for almost nine months. His career has been in IT, so he’s been applying to plenty of those jobs, with no luck. I suspect some of this may be due to his shaky job history and some unflattering things that could come up in background checks, especially in a competitive field.

    He’s also been applying for pretty much any job available — retail, fast food, hotel front desks, maintenance, etc. She said he’s getting rejected every time because managers look at his IT background and assume he’s just looking for a job to get by and will leave the first chance he gets. While that may be true (he would probably continue working part-time at one of these jobs even if he got something full time in IT), I was really surprised that he would get this feedback. These jobs are notorious for high turnover and shorter-term stays, so I would think managers would assume that comes with the territory. Plus, just about every business around here has “now hiring” signs. It feels odd that they would reject someone who’s interested and able to do the work, even if over-qualified.

    Is this a real thing? Has anyone else heard of similar things happening?

    1. AnonymousOctopus*

      It’s totally a real thing. I’ve been told to not include my BA degree on my resume if applying for any job like that. I hate to say it, but those workplaces want workers with few options who can’t afford to leave the job if it’s abusive/poorly run. Having a degree and many years of experience using that degree means you have more options to bail, and that isn’t convenient to fast food/retail/maintenance jobs.

    2. MsSolo (UK)*

      Eh, retail and fast food definitely don’t love hiring overqualified people. If he has no experience in that kind of a customer facing role, he’s a high risk hire. It’s one thing to take on an overqualified person who has previous retail experience, who’ll need less onboarding and knows what to expect from the job – they might only stick around a few months but it’s worth the effort doing the paperwork – but it’s another to take a chance on someone who’s going to need handholding for several shifts and might quit before the end of their first week. There’s high turnover and then there’s ‘would have been better to leave the role empty’ turnover.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I hate to say it, but on top of these very good points, people in IT don’t always have a great reputation when it comes to customer service (some are fantastic, but being talked down to be IT in a former job really cements how much I love the IT people where I work now).

        If he has past service industry experience and can talk about it we’ll and positively, that would help. Especially if he wants to stay on part-time after getting a role in his regular industry.

        1. JFC*

          Interesting. TBH, it would be hard to envision him in a role that deals a lot with customers. I’ve known him as an acquaintance for years and he’s always given off a slightly creepy vibe, like with the really intense eyes that can be off-putting. And, his demeanor nowadays is even more angry/desperate since he is borderline homeless.

          1. Feeling Feline*

            I think, this might be a bigger reason for him not getting such visible customer facing jobs, than the over qualification alone.

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              Agreed! Vibes make a big difference. You don’t want customers to be uncomfortable.

            2. Roland*

              Definitely. It’s just more socially acceptable to say “you seem overqualified” than “you are creeping me out”.

            3. DrSalty*

              If he is getting rejected after interviews then it’s the creepy vibe. If it’s before an interview at the resume stage, then it’s probably the qualifications.

          2. Clisby*

            Well, you have your answer – at least as far as retail, fast food, and hotel front desk employees go. They want employees who can project friendliness (or at least ordinary civility). “Slightly creepy” is not usually the vibe they’re after.

            1. UKDancer*

              Definitely can confirm as regards hotel front desk. You really don’t want the reception staff to be creepy. I was at an independent hotel a few weeks back and the receptionist was really creepy and intrusive in the way he was asking me about my plans for the evening . I made sure to lock the door and put the chain on.

              I travel a lot and front desk behaviour can matter a lot and set the tone for a stay. You want people who are friendly, welcoming and responsive to queries but not overwhelming. It’s why I like the Premier Inn chain, their staff are always really good at hitting the balance.

          3. Hyaline*

            Oh, yeah, he’s not getting jobs because he’s creepy. When I worked in food service every person working the front would see people who dropped off applications and we had a code we’d pass to the manager if they skeeved us out. Between that and her creep-radar in interviews, creeps didn’t get hired. Sorry not sorry, says the former 20 year old me who closed a lot and needed to trust her coworkers.

          4. Annie*

            Oof.
            A few ways someone in this situation might be able to reduce the creep vibe (based on advice I’ve seen given to “creepy” people (mostly men)):
            Mixed gender hobby group for social practice and feedback in a less fraught setting.
            Bring work-appropriate pen and notepad to lessen fidgeting in an interview-appropriate way.
            Body language coaching.
            Mindset switch. This one is perhaps the most challenging. One popular theory around creep vibes is that it’s our term for “social lie detected, ulterior motive suspected”. According to the theory, desperation AKA scarcity mentality and outcome dependence drive creep vibes, and therefore, cultivating an abundance mentality and outcome independence keeps creep vibes at bay.

        2. Ama*

          Speaking from the hiring side, it’s also so common now to get spammed with applications from people in any and all fields where it’s unclear if they even read the job description or are just blanket applying to everything. If he truly wants one of these jobs that are so different from his actual work experience he needs to write a cover letter that explains how he thinks his previous work experience would help him be good at that specific job even if it’s a different industry.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        I’ve got to agree. People with no experience in retail/food service, or customer-facing service in general, sometimes have a great deal of trouble shifting gears.

        I do training for taking phone orders where I work, and I’ve trained a handful of workers who clearly had not done this style of job in many years, if ever. It was also clear that they had it listed mentally as the equivalent of “Easy A” and were shocked at the amount of training required at this “filler” job. None of them lasted the full week of training and having to hire and start over again was an enormous PITA as well as a waste of time and energy.

        Now obviously the person you’re talking about isn’t like this, necessarily, but I do think a mindset of “this is going to be a potential boondoggle” is something he’s going to have to overcome. I’d recommend tailoring his resume and going sounding like someone who doesn’t want just A job, he wants THIS job. As you say, everyone in town seems to be hiring–he should emphasize why he applied here, to this business, and sound like a person who isn’t one foot out the door before he’s even in.

    3. Qwerty*

      Has he tried any of the places that have Open Interview days? Most fast food near me doesn’t even have an application process, you go straight to the interview, which is basically “are you going to show up reliably?” A friend was sitting near the interview table once and said people were basically asked three questions and then hired on the spot, but maybe we’re a little more desperate?

      Could he reduce his resume to just the last couple jobs? Has he previously worked at any of these type of places before where he could emphasis that?

      1. JFC*

        I don’t know if he’s done open interviews, but I think he has gone to a few job fairs.

        I’m not sure of the current state of his resume. I know he worked at a marketing/advertising company and a small university, but I’ve never heard about him working anything retail, food service or customer-facing.

    4. AbsolutelyTrue*

      Oh yes. I work in tech and have had several really long periods without work and it just was not possible to get a filler job. No one will touch you because they expect you to leave at a moment’s notice for a better job. This is true even if the filler job relates to a hobby/area if expertise.

  19. Lemon.Pepper*

    I shaved a couple of my earliest jobs off my resume for a couple of reasons (including sheer length of my career history!) but largely to not divulge my age (I’m in my 40s). For context I went to college as a ‘mature’ student and these jobs were corporate but prior to my time at college, so my new resume starts from when I graduated college and has about 12 years of corporate work history. The two jobs I shaved off are somewhat relevant to an interview I have coming up, in so far as they would illustrate the breadth of my experience in working in a particular area. Is it ok to refer to them in passing during the interview (eg. ‘and prior to college I had a further x years of experience working in triangular teapot design that isn’t noted on my resume’) or are they off limits seeing as they aren’t on my resume to start with? I wouldn’t use them for competency-based examples in response to questions, but more to merely illustrate that I have worked with a wider variety of teapot types and situations.

    1. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

      That should be fine. Your resume shouldn’t be a complete work history and they won’t be surprised if you reference jobs that weren’t on it. It’s a very normal thing to do. If you’re worried, you can always just mention the role was one that got trimmed from the resume for space when you bring it up.

    2. Yes And*

      I’ve done the same on my resume. At the bottom of my work experience, I have a single line, “Previous positions on request.” This conveys that there’s more than I’m including on my resume, so if something comes up, it’s not a surprise. I’ve never had any issue with it.

    3. Dulcinea47*

      In my experience, this is fine. I went to grad school as a (very) mature student so also have some old/irrelevant jobs left off my resume which I will ocassionally mention. No one batted an eye.

    4. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      All good from my perspective, seeing this on a cover letter or hearing about it in an interview would be good information and I wouldn’t jump to “candidate is untruthful” especially when contextualized as before college. From where I sit, any relevant experience is always helpful to know because it suggests something about a potentially shorter training period or at least allows me to better tailor the onboaring and training.

  20. chocolate muffins*

    Small (or big) joys at work thread! I had some fun and productive conversations with students in my lab. What made you all happy this week?

    1. Rex Libris*

      I just started interviews for an open position that’s a bit niche and hard to fill, and happily, the very first one went really well.

    2. Nesprin*

      My new postdoc has hit the ground running and it’s great to see his excitement and willingness to take on hard things.

    3. SlideScanner*

      My supervisor is on vacation this week. No annoying forwarded emails sent mere seconds after the original one was received – and I’m on the listserv for them anyway, thanks for making sure (yet again) that I saw it.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I had to present a 2 year roadmap for my manager this week, and he declared it very good! We have very different work styles, and I am still adjusting to the way he likes things done, so this was a win for me. Also, I got another department to fund a project that would otherwise have to come out of my budget and be significantly rescoped to be within my budget. It will take a huge amount of work off my plate and let me use my budget for something else, so double win!

    5. Project lead*

      Massively troubled project that I took over 14 months ago billed $17k this month, our highest yet.

      It billed $6k in the entire 18 months under the two previous project leads, and $92k in the last 13 months. SATISFACTION.

    6. GythaOgden*

      Been appointed regional lead on a project I’ve been trying to wrangle most of the year. It means I have formal standing to boss the team of managers I work with to Get It Done, Now! next week, given the deadline we’ve got is 30 August. I’ve done my part of the job (setting up all the plans for a large number of sites, each of which needs this documentation), so now I get to insist that it gets to me in two weeks’ time, bank holiday or no. They have had the whole summer to do it and I’ve been reminding them all along, and obviously this is a collaborative exercise, but we just need to get them over the line.

      Wish me luck.

  21. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

    So I’m having a problem with the way my boss is treating my employee. 6 months ago, my former boss moved into a new role and my colleague was made my supervisor. We’re a small team: just this colleague, me, and my direct report.

    It was a tough transition. This colleague is not involved at all in the work that I or my admin do and they are well known for their difficult personality. They treat every task as urgent, they talk way too much and insert themselves into other people’s conversations uninvited, and they are a heinous micromanager.

    I was able to sort this out with some direct communication and boundaries. They weren’t helpful to me at all, but they did stop getting in the way. I thought things were going fine until my direct report asked for help understanding part of a project and she showed me the emails and chats she’s been getting from my boss.

    Apparently, all of the micromanagement and overcommunication and false urgency has been going directly to my employee instead of to me. I’m planning to speak to my boss about this directly but they are notorious for not receiving feedback well. They don’t fly off the handle so much as find ways to justify themselves so they can frame any changes they make as a kindness to that one person rather than anything they might need to improve on generally.

    Additionally, my boss and I are both white while my employee is part of a racial/ethnic minority. I don’t think it’s racism motivating this behavior, but it doesn’t look good that they’re treating my employee this way but not me. And I bet it feels worse to my employee and our colleagues. Optics matter.

    So I’m going to address this directly with my boss before I ask the execs to step in. I both want to give them the chance to do better and model a good response for my employee, whose area of development is being more assertive and advocating for herself. Anyone have advice for how to approach this convo or things I should avoid?

    1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Micromanagers are all about feeling in control. Remember to try to frame things that way during the convo, for which I don’t have a lot of specific advice other than to try to keep it as collaborative in tone as possible so they don’t get defensive too quickly.

      And then, once things move forward, all I can suggest is to be a bit more generally communicative with your boss (if able to interact in person, it’s the best way IMO but phone works too). You’re bringing FYIs to them even though they don’t actually need resolving or you don’t need the boss’s input. You’re letting them know a minor thing happened that isn’t a problem. You’re mentioning an issue you have always been on the same side of to remind them you’re a team.

      To me this usually looks like an occasional pop-in that wasn’t scheduled, or smiling and nodding to SOME of their unsolicited advice to help them feel like they’re participating. Under those circumstances, they are less likely to think you are hiding something and peppering you with advice, because in their view they ‘re already in on it. But because you’re the one going to them, even if you don’t feel you need it or that it will be in your way, it makes them feel like they’re looped in which in the end means they are LESS likely to pepper you with stuff. I hope that helps since I don’t have much advice for the actual convo; I’m hoping it at least helps deflect from it going to your employee in future. Keep us posted!

    2. Anon Teacher*

      Your boss is probably doing this to your direct report because you stood up to him. You were assertive, so he feels more comfortable dumping on your direct report instead. The thing to do, I think, is try to get your boss to route all assignments to your report through you, if that is feasible. and definitely instruct your direct report to loop you in when given any projects by your boss, so you can push back if needed.

  22. BikeWalkBarb*

    Describe your dream staff meeting if there is such a thing! My context: Knowledge work, team mostly higher-level SMEs, small team inside a giant organization, lots of new hires over the last 12-18 months from outside the organization.

    What makes it worth your time to be together with everyone you work with directly, vs. “please make that one an email I promise I’ll read someday”? Particularly interested in comments if your context or experience is one with rapid growth and not having everyone at the same level of knowledge about the organization itself.

    How much time do you spend on what you do vs. how you do it and how you function as a team vs. the larger organization? What’s most valuable that you actually take away and use?

    Length and frequency thoughts are helpful along with “in addition to the bigger meeting do this other thing”. Bonus points for creative and engaging approaches.

    1. jet setting pen*

      You could be describing my team. Our bi weekly team meetings have three parts:

      (1) workload check in because the rapid growth is in response to a rapid increase in workload. As team leader, my workload is growing a lot so I’m less responsive and it helps to have the whole team realize what is going on when I am constantly rebalancing priorities.

      (2) miscellaneous items that usually focus on professional norms or feedback I want every to hear (e.g. out of office messages and calendar etiquette, the llama groomers keep leaving us llama herders off key llama management meets so please check all meeting invites). This is usually motivated by a pattern across the team and I try to only include issues that I think will benefit everyone

      (3) training: I oversee a team of SMEs, but there is still a lot about the company and their job that they need to learn (niche subfield often not taught in grad school). So I do a series of lectures as a crash course. Once we finish that, we’ll have team members rotate through case studies from their work or I’ll give other smaller trainings (e.g., about software or institutional history).

      The first two items take 15-30minutes usually, depending on how many miscellaneous topics I have and the follow up questions. The third item usually takes 1-1.5 hours per session.

    2. Meh*

      Don’t do what we did which was have the same 2-3 basic topics that the senior people had heard 10x times and knew by heart just for the benefit of the new batch.

      How homogenous is the team ? would it be of value for the senior people to explain big picture what they do and how it fits into the groups responsibilities ? Maybe it’s a good time for people to go over challenges so others with relevant experience can offer expertise ? Don’t turn the group meeting into a 1:1 troubleshooting session with an audience tho.

    3. Mad Harry Crewe*

      We used to have a Customer success department meeting (20-25 people) where each team’s manager updated about things that might impact or be of interest to the rest of the department – so the Support team updated on high-impact bugs, fixes, or releases that were coming out, the CSM team updated on at-risk customers, the Implementations team updated on where new customers were in the sales-implementation-live pipeline. We’d also get updates on any hiring happening. As an individual contributor, it was nice to get a brief executive summary view of the other teams and to hear about customers that I might need to be a little more careful with (at-risk or recently live). If an outside person needed to communicate to the entire team (Product, usually), they’d join and do a presentation.

      Everything in the meeting was useful to multiple people there, even if every single thing wasn’t useful to every single person. We always opened with a very low-key icebreaker, and responsibility for the icebreaker rotated through the whole team so it wasn’t always the same activity – I enjoyed chatting with people whose work intersected mine regularly but that I didn’t necessarily chat with otherwise. The meetings often didn’t take a whole hour, and nobody tried to bulk them up if it was a short one.

  23. Daisy-dog*

    Best way to learn SQL? I currently work in HR technology and a lot of our systems operate on SQL. I’m hoping to utilize this knowledge to get more technical positions in the future.

    I am willing to invest in this, but it is strictly a personal investment so not too much.

    1. M*

      I can’t speak to SQL specifically but I have used universalclass to learn excel and found it useful, at the time, I had free access to the site through my library, it is possible you have a library system that offers access the the site or similar one. It might be a good place to start

    2. Colleen*

      My company has a multi-user license for Data Camp. It’s great. I don’t know if it’s affordable for personal use. My kids used Khan Academy (free!) https://www.khanacademy.org/ for all kinds of math and programming for school. That was an amazing resource for them.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Seconding. W3schools and Stack Overflow get it done. Don’t try to learn everything at once, learn what you need as you need it.

  24. CountingMyBlessings*

    after 19 years at the same company and 15 years with the same manager, I now have an amazing company* and an even more amazing manager.

    I am writing this on my day off. Cause I can do things like this now, fully knowing I have someone above me keeping an eye on things and holding down the fort.

    sometimes the grass really is greener.

    * by the end of July, my gross pay at the new place was already past the highest that I had ever received at the old place (where I was for 19 years) and that had said I was paid at market value.

  25. M*

    I’ve been asked to be part of the lunch interviews for the person who will be my grandboss. I work in a secretarial role, this person would be CFO and I really know nothing about finance or running a medium sized business. Finance team is also in this lunch and we’ve already had one of the3 interviews, I let them take the lead with the questions, and just threw in a personality question at the end. I also have a comment rubric, I have absolutely no idea how I could fill out. Any suggestions for general questions I could throw out at the next two meetings would be appreciated and if anyone has any thought on how to tell my boss (head of HR ) I don’t think filling out a rubric makes sense for me in my position

    1. FashionablyEvil*

      I would ask about their management style, approach to developing staff, or strategies for communicating with a non-finance audience.

      I would evaluate what you can in the rubric–did they give thoughtful answers? Did they treat the members of then panel respectfully? Did they give good examples that lead you to believe they’d be a thoughtful and collegial co-worker?

    2. EMP*

      it sounds like they want your input on a personality fit and that’s great! I don’t think it’s a big deal to ask/tell your boss what you said here. Something like “Since I don’t have the financial background to evaluate this person along the lines on this rubric, is there another way I can give feedback”?

    3. I strive to Excel*

      I would say keep an eye on tone as well as how he treats you during the finance portion. It wouldn’t be unusual for him to focus primarily on the finance team for finance questions, but he shouldn’t ignore your existence entirely. If his answers are completely incomprehensible for non-finance people that can also be an orange flag. Talking about financial concepts is one thing, but an answer full to the brim of jargon and business blandness is another entirely. Part of the job of the CFO is to translate what his team is bringing him into useful information for the rest of the business, and you’d want some evidence that he can do that during the interview.

      Also, just how he treats you in general! People are far more likely to behave badly to those in positions of less power than they are to their perceived peers or superiors. That’s likely a reason, though not the only or primary reason, you were included; it’s a well-known hiring tactic to ask the receptionist/office admin/security guard/etc how a person behaved when they were coming in and leaving for their interview.

      1. Kesnit*

        I agree with the last paragraph. (I agree with all of this answer, but especially the last paragraph.)

        It’s one thing to see how a prospective hire acts around those who are – if not peers – of a level that they would interact with the hire on a close level. It is another to see how the prospective hire treats someone who is “lesser.” (I do not think admin staff is lesser! I use the term for description.)

        Several years ago, I interviewed for an entry level position as a public defender. (So the job required a law degree and bar license.) The interview panel was the Chief Public Defender and the Office Manager. One of the questions was how I view support staff. Without thinking, my response was “god’s gift to the attorney!” It was only later that I realized that the OM was in there and the question was asked to weed out those who felt that – because they are a licensed attorney – they are “better” than the support staff (who really are as vital to the office as the attorneys).

      2. M*

        Thank you, this is very helpful. I’m afraid the first candidate hit all the orange/red flags. I didn’t understand a word he said, and he went on at length in absolute math gibberish. His response to my one question was a bit of a side step, which gave me some insight into his way of thinking but to me didn’t feel genuinely in the moment, although he made and effort later in the day as he was leaving to show that he remembered and appreciated my question in the meeting, it felt like he was making a great effort and not actually interested in me so much as appearing not to think he was better than me. I spoke to our finance team about their thoughts on him, and I was relieved to hear that they didn’t like his answers to the finance questions and he wasn’t a good fit for the team. I am also very hopeful this meeting was a fluke and not what the next two interviews will be like.

    4. DrSalty*

      I suggest asking your boss what they want you to evaluate as part of the interview. Probably there’s a reason they asked you to join.

      1. DrSalty*

        A *specific* reason I mean, like there’s a specific aspect of the evaluation they have in mind that you can assess. Whether that’s personality or ability to communicate with non finance people, etc as others have suggested.

    5. UKDancer*

      Ask about their management style, how they would describe themselves and what feedback they’ve had on their leadership from staff in the past. You could ask how they would build an inclusive and diverse culture and bring on talent.

      It’s also good to ask, as others have suggested, how they would explain a financial issue to a non-expert audience and ensure they understood.

      I’d also keep an eye on body language and whether they’re including you in the answers or ignoring you as that says a lot.

  26. Treetop*

    My manager asked me to tell “Karen” to go see him and bring her materials with her so she could scan a shipment of items that just arrived in our warehouse. When I told Karen, she rolled her eyes at me. She made some comment about not getting mad at the messenger, but I was a little confused. My manager did tell me to preface it with ” Tell her that you’re working on something already, so that’s why she needs to scan the items.”

    Yesterday my boss told me to leave some reports for Karen to mail out and today Karen was talking to me about it. Karen actually asked me if I was the one that created those reports. I said no, that the boss asked me to leave them for Karen to work on.

    I then overheard Karen telling the boss that she asked me about the reports and that I “didn’t know” what to do. I gave Karen instructions but apparently she either didn’t listen or hear me.

    I don’t know what to do. I actually used to get along with Karen, so I’m not sure what’s going on now. It seems like Karen thinks I’m dumping work on her or something, but it’s stuff that either my boss or manager are assigning to her. I might suggest that they speak to her directly- would that help? I’m not sure what to do.

    1. Sloanicota*

      I would always start saying “Boss asked me to bring these to you” every time I drop something off at her desk.

    2. WellRed*

      Your first example of what boss told you to say to Karen sounds very much like you are dumping work on her. Has your boss always operated this way, using you as the messenger/go between or is this new?

      1. Treetop*

        In the first example, I was assigned another assignment that was urgent/priority. Karen and another coworker were asked to help on the other project. Yes, they’ll tell us to talk to so and so about certain things or give them assignments.

        1. WellRed*

          But did you tell Karen “boss wants you to do this” or “you need to do this, I’m working on something else.” Cause there’s a big difference between those two phrases.

          1. Treetop*

            I said “Boss asked to see you and for you to bring your laptop with you.” Karen rolled her eyes and made the messenger comment. I said that I was given a different project to work on. I’m not sure what else happened but then another coworker was sent to help Karen.

            1. English Teacher*

              If I’m interpreting Karen’s comment right in the first example–if she said something like, “I guess I shouldn’t be mad at the messenger”–I’d let that one go. It sounds like she was frustrated with the boss but understood that you were not to blame.

              The second example is more worrisome, but there still could be an innocent explanation. if she asked whether you created the reports or not and you said no, the boss did, it might be that she wanted to ask a follow-up question and realized that you were not the person to ask because you did not create the reports. She might have just been explaining that to the boss, albeit not using the best phrasing, when she said that you “didn’t know.” Or she could be trying to throw you under the bus. Just something to keep an eye on, I think.

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I wonder if the boss is trying to help you work with a tricky personality. I could see a situation where I’d typically assign work to Person A but then something comes up they have to do and it’s still faster to have A hand over to B than me get in the middle of it. I suspect the advice “tell Karen you’ve got another project” is the boss having sussed out a personality quirk of theirs and they’re attempting to help you, Treetop, better manage a prickly individual with the right phrase. (Though I’ll say, if I thought Person B would blow up at Person A, I’d probably make a point of speaking to Person B myself)

      I don’t love that the boss has you being a go-between, and WellRed is right that there can be good and bad ways to have these conversations, but it also reads to me like Karen has a chip on her shoulder and/or is having problems with the boss. Try to remember that has absolutely nothing to do with you. You’re doing what you can do; her reaction is her reaction. It seems odd to me but it isn’t necessarily about anything you’re doing wrong.

      Oh, and the idea of making sure it’s clear to Karen this is coming from the boss is smart. Just be as matter-of-fact about it as possible.

    4. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      Just be direct about it. One of the best cures for passive aggressiveness is to call things out directly; the other is to cheerfully take their words literally. But since Karen is saying things like you don’t know what to do, just ask her about it. “Hey, last time I passed on a message from Boss, I also told you that it was because the llamas needed someone to sing to them, but I then overheard you telling Boss that I didn’t know what to do when I had just told you. What’s up with that?” Just calmly and as if you were saying ‘hey I turned the printer on and it said there was no paper when there is, do you know what’s up with that?”

  27. MigraineMonth*

    What’s a weird culture quirk of one of your workplaces that was treated as completely normal?

    For example, my first professional job explicitly taught us “aggressive badgering” as a workplace norm. If John needs to complete a task for you by EOD Monday, you should remind him. Frequently. With escalating levels of urgency. If you still haven’t gotten it from him by that time, at 4pm on Monday you should be in his office, waiting for him to complete the task.

    I had a set of email templates called “badgering” 1-5 with pictures of badgers starting with an adorable baby badger and escalating to a mean AF-looking honey badger that I would send to people to remind them I needed them to review my work. I thought this was completely normal and a professional workplace communication style. (Yes, it was a chaotic and drama-filled workplace.)

    How about yours?

    1. Elle*

      The most dysfunctional offices have the best examples of these. I worked in a toxic dump of an office with the worst directors. We had birthday celebrations for staff (cake and snacks for a half hour). One large department was not allowed to attend because their manager felt it took too much time away from their work. We would all be having a nice occasional break and these poor people couldn’t even grab a slice of cake.

    2. HSE Compliance*

      I kind of love the pictures of badgers. I would be way more excited for emails if they included animals to communicate the vibe of the message.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah I have to say I would not have done well at this office (I don’t mind one reminder a few days before a deadline if it’s been a while but multiple reminders for a short term deadline would drive me up a wall), but the badger photos would have amused me and taken some of the annoyance out of it.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Everything’s better with badgers.

          My boss used crocodiles as a metaphor for problems that sneak up from behind and bite you where it hurts if you’re not careful. She handed out pens at the Christmas party with little crocs on them to remind us never to get too complacent.

          It’s lovely working somewhere that has a sense of humour about things.

      2. BikeWalkBarb*

        One of my colleagues uses jalapeño pepper emojis to indicate how hot a particular topic is. This is particularly useful when she’s sending something to a contact at another public agency and needs them to respond pretty quickly. Funny and communicative but not badgers. I can’t imagine using this approach for adults. What’s next, porcupines and skunks if they’re mad?

    3. Cedrus Libani*

      In my first professional job, it was normal to wager $1 on the outcome of various experiments. If the boss told you to do something, but you didn’t think it would work, you could put your money down. You still had to do it, but if you were right, the boss had to admit it and pay up.

      I was once so certain that I raised the stakes to $5, a king’s ransom. The next morning, I was back in the boss’s office with the results…and the $5 that I owed him, because he was right and I was wrong.

      There was a tech who had been doing the job since I was in diapers. She had a line of $1 bills taped over her work bench. None of them were mine. I would argue with the boss, but I wasn’t going to argue with her!

      1. Cedrus Libani*

        Also, I once had a professor who insisted that in every PowerPoint, the number of differential equations must be strictly less than the number of kittens (which were, of course, an apology to the audience for subjecting them to unsightly maths). Even to this day, when my eyeballs are accosted by a bunch of equations whizzing by at speed, I quietly resent the lack of kittens.

        1. Fluff*

          That is the best KPI ever. PPT kitten to equation ratio must be 1.0 or greater. This m etric could be added to employee evaluations as a measurable goal. To get an exceeds expectations there must be soo mannny kittens.

          1. GythaOgden*

            We have a pets channel at work on Viva Engage and they’re always on the newsletter. Tempted to post some of my plushies, particularly the octopus I got at a theme park with a small zoo and aquarium on site just before I started in the new job.

            I find looking at pictures of baby animals physically relaxing.

    4. English Teacher*

      Jeez louise, that workplace sounds stressful.

      I really wonder how common or uncommon this is, or if it’s limited to education but in our school, every single meeting has to start with an “inclusion activity,” aka an icebreaker question. Even if it’s like three people meeting for 15 minutes — it’s just so ingrained.

      The ones I can’t stand the most are the questions that demand that you get way too personal with coworkers that you really don’t know that well, such as “what family members are you going to see over Thanksgiving” or “what do you want to do when you retire?” Food-based questions are also super common, and we all know the potential problems lurking there.

      If it’s my duty to write the inclusion question for the meeting, I usually keep it work-focused. Either that or I find one of those “which one of these kittens 1-9 is your vibe today?” memes.

      1. Anon Teacher*

        I taught at a place with this same norm, and it just always grated on me. Like, you’ve heard that relationships are important, but you don’t know how to build them in a genuine way so you’re mandating icebreakers.

    5. ThatOtherClare*

      One place I worked in had a weird ‘quirk’ of people leaving razor blades everywhere. Lying on tables in the lunchroom, all over work benches, in filing cabinets and on people’s desks. I was always terrified I’d put my hand down on a razor blade and cut myself. I tried creating safe places to put them by labelling several clear pots ‘RAZOR BLADES’ and leaving them in convenient places, but for some reason people hated this idea and would remove the razor blades as quickly as I could find and secure them. I got the impression they decided they’d literally prefer to injure themselves than be told what to do by a woman. You can lead a misogynist to safety, but you can’t make them stay safe ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    6. Part time lab tech*

      I worked at a lab with white laminate benches. We were expected to cover them with plastic paper using sticky tape. The only reason I can think of is to prevent stains but the benches got tape residue on them instead.

  28. urguncle*

    I know after sending a negotiation, the move is to stop talking. How long does that go? We’re on 7 business days since I sent my negotiation in for an internal move (I applied for, interviewed for and got this job, it’s not a promotion or appointment) starting in October. The entire process to get the job required me asking for updates because every step took longer than a week to get a response from recruiting/HR.

    1. Lacy LaPlante*

      Generally it’s fine to follow up if you haven’t heard a response. The reasons you should stop talking are 1) to put the onus on the other party to respond and 2) to avoid saying something more that may undermine your negotiating position. This applies more to verbal than written negotiations. But in your situation, if you know HR has a long turnaround time and you’re still within that usual response time, you may want to hold off a little longer.

  29. New beginnings*

    I’m starting a new job next week! I’m very excited, it’s a big step up for me. I haven’t started a new job in a really long time. And while I know most the people I will be managing from industry events, I’ve never worked with them, a lot of them are remote, and I really don’t know any of the higher ups and peers. Any advice on how to start well?

    1. Msd*

      When talking to people don’t compare new job processes, procedures, tools, ways of doing things to old job. Many times something new/different seems bad just because you’re not familiar with it not because it actually is.

    2. Msd*

      Also be patient with yourself. I know when I switched jobs after a long time at one place I didn’t realize how much “background stuff” I had to re-learn. Like getting a purchase made, approval process, how to work around roadblocks, even how to get a pencil.

  30. Elevator Elevator*

    Thoughts on/experience with LinkedIn’s Easy Apply feature? LinkedIn seems to have replaced Indeed as the job platform of choice in my industry since the last time I was looking, and I’ve never used the site much.

    For postings where Easy Apply is the only way to apply, but a resume upload is still required – does my profile need to do some of the talking for me, or can I assume the resume is still what matters? My profile is literally just my name and my job history, and I’m wondering if I need to flesh it out more/add a photo.

    Also, if a job doesn’t ask for a cover letter or include an option to upload one, should I take the out and skip the cover letter, or create a combined cover-letter-and-resume PDF to sneak it in there? AAM’s guidance on cover letters helped me stand out from the crowd when applying for my last position, so I definitely know the value of a good one, but my resume speaks for itself more now.

    1. Sloanicota*

      I have had issues with it, where the job posting did not intend to review applicants through Easy Apply. This was a while ago but maybe it used to be easy to accidentally leave that box checked or not understand what it meant or something. If I see “real” application instructions on the company website, I always go through that rather than LI.

      1. pally*

        I understand that Easy Apply is the default if no other method is selected by the job poster. Folks who may be unfamiliar with how to post jobs may not realize this. Subsequently, those resumes submitted via Easy Apply are never seen by the recruiter because they are unaware that they must collect them.

        If at all possible, find the company website and submit directly.

        1. Elevator Elevator*

          Just to reiterate: I’m asking about situations where Easy Apply is the only option. When I can find a way to apply directly I’m already doing that.

            1. pally*

              It does beg the question (for me anyways) why the secrecy? Is there in fact not an actual job available?

    2. Despairingly unemployed*

      I usually combine the cover letter with my resume even when not asked, because it usually helps (or so I… assume/have read/been told). I don’t know how much your profile itself matters, the few times I’ve used Easy Apply and had responses (rarely), they tended to look at my profile though.

  31. Concerned mom*

    Can someone please help me understand how bad the job market in tech is? I have seen lots of talk about this on Reddit and on this site (to a lesser extent), including a posting above. I’m not in tech myself so am trying to understand how widespread this is or whether it just applies to certain sub fields. My daughter is a high school senior about to apply to college and she has been interested in getting a bachelors degree in computer science, but I’m wondering if this is a bad idea given the job market. She doesn’t know what specifically she is interested in yet, other than computer science broadly. It seems like computer science is still one of the fastest growing job sectors according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, so I’m confused about what I’m hearing.

    1. CTT*

      I can’t speak to the tech industry, but there’s so much time between now and when she would be entering the workforce that I don’t think it’s possible to predict what her job search will be like.

    2. Nesprin*

      It’s probably not worth considering the current market- in 4 years it’ll be a different economy.

      And quite frankly there’s always been space for good people in any market- the best things she can do are make sure she loves the program and that there’s a natural job path afterwards, make sure she tries out everything she can and goes through a few internships.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There’s a difference between getting a CS degree and working in ‘tech’. What gets the flashy headlines is layoffs at the largest ‘tech’ companies – Netflix, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook/Meta, etc. – or at startups going through economic uncertainty.

      There are plenty of people who do programming and other tech careers who are having no trouble finding jobs. I’ve had 3 coworkers leave in the last 6 months for greener pastures.

    4. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      The tech job market changes very frequently. She should definitely not base her choice of major on what it looks like right now.

    5. EMP*

      From my POV, investors suddenly want to move their money to the next hot thing, so jobs are shifting around, but the industry isn’t going away (yet). In some cases there’s a lot of non-technical roles being cut from tech companies (marketing, project management) though some are cutting more core technical roles. Some specializations have become somewhat saturated and hard to break into, but that’s true in all kind of fields.

      What I’m trying to say is computer science seems like as good a major as any to start with at college right now, and she can focus her studies on a particular field down the road to make herself more competitive.

    6. H.C.*

      Both “computer science” and “tech” are such generic terms that it’s really hard to say without knowing what sort of CS education she’s pursuing (and how good the colleges’ computer/tech programs are) and what tech field(s) she’s interested in.

      But if possible, maybe she can intern/shadow during her senior year (or the summer between HS & college) so she can get a clearer perspective of those jobs.

    7. Rick Tq*

      Infosystems Security is a VERY hot career and job market from everything I hear from our security group. Hot enough there are more jobs than qualified applicants and that has been true for a while.

    8. Meh*

      does she love coding / computer science ? If yes, she will be able to find a job. in this digital world there are many opportunities – healthcare, finance, retail, manufacturing… anything from application dev to network security to data science.

    9. Bitte Meddler*

      Like others are saying, it will be a different job market in 4-5 years.

      And a B.S. in computer science can be parlayed into all kinds of things. In my profession, IT internal auditors are in high demand and are paid a higher salary than a business process internal auditor at the same level.

      For anyone getting any non-business degree, I suggest minoring in some aspect of Business (accounting, finance, HR, etc.). One, it will help put the stuff learned in the other discipline into a context of getting paid for doing work in that other discipline; and, two, it will help widen the job opportunities available after graduation. (“Oh, you speak IT *and* business! We need unicorns like you to bridge those two departments.”)

    10. Qwerty*

      My recommendation is to take coding classes in college, but major in something else. Coding is everywhere now – it gets used by scientists, engineers (non-computer ones), archeologists, even our marketing system requires a special psuedo-code language to customize emails.

      Computer Science has become the default degree plus there tons of bootcamps pumping out students every 3 months. Most CS programs are not that great either.

      If she really loves programming and wants to do that, then she’ll need to pick a strong school that teaches the fundamentals and can make her stand out in the job market. At her age, it’s worth looking at schools that have options (what if she takes her first coding class and hates it?) so she has the freedom to choose from multiple majors, or at least take interesting electives. My college had an Engineering 101 class where we focused on a different degree in Engineering each week with a sample lecture and homework assignment that was great for figuring out what role actually fit.

      Finally, *why* does she want to do Computer Science? Understanding the why will help parse out what she actually wants. For example, in my day women who loved math were pushed to CS. It is false advertising, math sadly has no part in my day to day. While I’ve had a great career, my interests would have been more aligned with science/research and I’d do it differently.

    11. Seashell*

      My kid is going into junior year of college and is a computer science major, and my spouse works in a tech-related position for a major corporation. As long as my kid can get a foot in the door somewhere before too long after graduation, I figure it will work out fine. Getting an internship seems to be a big deal, so hopefully that will happen next summer between my nagging to apply for every possible internship and the spouse’s network of former co-workers. Where the school can help place students in internship might be worth thinking about in your daughter’s case.

      Will AI take over coding 10 years from now? Maybe, who knows? Will all the laid off tech workers take all the entry-level jobs? I doubt it. I figure any degree is better than no degree, so, as long as there’s not excessive student loan debt, might as well stick with what the kid likes and does well with.

    12. fhqwhgads*

      There is no point in making a decision that won’t be relevant until 4 years from now based on the job market right now.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Yeah, I’m not a tech person, so I may be way off but I’m always wary about choosing degrees/qualifications/careers based on “the current job market,” because it will usually be four years before the person is actually applying for jobs and generally, they will then be started off a 40+ year career and it is very hard to know what will be a competitive degree/career in 20, 30, 40 years.

  32. AnonForThisQuestion*

    Has anyone successfully negotiated a salary increase for a federal job offer, and do you have any tips if I receive the official job offer? I accepted the tentative job offer, even though they made the offer at the very bottom of the salary range, and I don’t want to move for that salary. The salary looks like a significant pay increase based on current salary, but I’m moving from a lower to a higher cost of living location. The pay change is effectively a $3000-5000 pay decrease when accounting for COL, plus there is no help with relocation expenses. I also have 25 years of experience in the role that is being filled, so I was a little shocked to even get an offer at the very bottom of the range. Thoughts on how to make my case?

    1. Nesprin*

      Ask the recruiter how to make a case for a higher job classification based on extensive experience and characteristics so that you could start as a GS X+1 instead of a GS X.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        Or if you can’t manage that, try to come in at a higher step within the grade – if you’re at the bottom of the range it may be the lowest step in the grade.

    2. Just a name*

      Don’t forget to ask to be brought in at a higher leave level. Otherwise they will start you at earning 4 hours of annual leave per pay period. With 25 years experience you should be eligible for 8 hours per pay period. This is the only time you can ask for that. Not after you are hired.

    3. Just a name*

      Also, does the number you are looking at include the locality pay? Most federal jobs, especially in HCOL areas, have a base pay plus a locality pay.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      This is pretty standard. If you apply for a job you are presumed to start at step 1. If the job is for a specific grade, you can request a higher step based on superior qualifications – either based on your experience, or sometimes, based on meeting your current salary. With regard to experience, go back to the original job announcement and highlight everywhere you have better qualifications than sought – e.g., it says one year of experience and you have five years.
      As you’ve indicated your current salary is lower, you could note the difference in cost of living (though as someone else has pointed out, you should check on whether there is locality pay.)

      If the position is laddered (e.g., 9/11/12) You could ask to start at a higher rung on the ladder, though you would need to demonstrate that you qualify for that grade – the difference is usually experience. Again, go back to the original announcement and compare your skills to what was requested at each grade (these are probably separate announcements at each grade.)

  33. Manders*

    I have been asked by a friend to provide a reference for him for a job, but I’ve never worked with him (he’s been a stay at home dad for the last few years and prior to that got his MBA). Any tips on how to frame it? The reference request asks if you know the person personally or professionally.

    1. Cordelia*

      Honestly, as a hiring manager, a reference from a friend of the applicant who has never worked with them would mean absolutely nothing, and would make me question the applicants judgement and understanding of professional norms. In your situation I think I would decline, and try to help him figure out who else he could ask who could speak to his abilities to perform the role.

    2. TPS Reporter*

      yeah I think you as a friend should encourage him to get some other references. even a professor or a classmate from business school would be better.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      If it isn’t too late to say no, say no because you haven’t worked with him. If it is too late, you mark down personally and go from there.

  34. Hibiscus*

    Last week a librarian turned performance auditor was looking for new career ideas–I just wanted to chime in because I did the same career path! I am back in libraries now as a hospital librarian, but the other librarian/performance auditor I know was working for a contracted medical/legal interpretation service. Aside from prospect research, I’d look at competitive intelligence. Good luck!

  35. anon for this*

    I’m on the board of directors of a nonprofit (it’s a governing board, not a working board), and the executive director is really underperforming. I haven’t had any experience with this before (this is my first board, I’m the least experienced member)–is it possible to do a performance improvement plan type of thing in this situation? Or does anyone have more general insights on how best to handle this, with the ED, the staff, and/or external parties such as donors? I feel like we’re flailing around here and I’d love some insight.

    1. Yes And*

      The board is the manager of the ED, and in general all of the normal manager-employee tools ought to be available to this relationship. Practically, it may be more difficult than that, given the level of responsibility the ED has. In my experience, it’s been further complicated by the fact that by the time it gets to that point, the staff is usually super frustrated, and the organization is at risk of (or already experiencing) high turnover.

      I think the question of to PIP or not to PIP is the same here as for any other PIP: Is there a realistic path forward where the employee passes the PIP and is performing up to expectations going forward? If yes, then do it. If not, cut your losses.

    2. Lacy LaPlante*

      Yes, it is absolutely possible and the nonprofit world would be a much better place if more board members were willing to do it. I think the steps that are helpful are:
      1) Get buy-in from the other board members and delegate a specific group to handle it. If you have a governance committee, that would be a good place to start.
      2) Before you start talking about a PIP, meet with the ED and staff separately to understand the challenges. Let the staff know their feedback will be confidential and not held against them. I would consider a PIP confidential and not inform the staff or any external stakeholders. (Yes, the staff will likely guess that this is happening behind the scenes.)
      3) When you implement the PIP, make sure all parties involved understand the expectations and next steps. Have a plan to monitor for progress, and continue open communication with staff so you can know if any further issues arise.

    3. Lemon.Pepper*

      On most boards I’ve sat on (or times I’ve been an ED reporting to a board) there’s been an inbuilt annual review mechanism for the ED, usually conducted by the board Chair, or board Chair plus another member. It’s always followed a similar format to staff ones, albeit cognisant of the difference in a) the level, and b) the reporting relationship. For a PIP-like outcome you’d need to be pretty clear about what the concerns are, what may be contributing to the performance issue, supports available to improve the performance, timelines for improvement and what improvement will actually look like (i.e. is it a measurable thing and if so what are the metrics?). For the board as a whole it’s also worth discussing how far you’d be willing to go if the performance *doesn’t* improve, as in would you exit the ED if needed? I’ve sat on boards and resigned from subordinate roles where the ED was appallingly poor in their position, but the board as a whole wasn’t willing to follow through on addressing it seriously because the ED was ‘such a great guy’!

    4. EA*

      I’ll be the downer and say it’s certainly possible but I haven’t seen it play out in real life. I’d start with setting some very clear KPIs/goals that will help document the underperformance. A challenge is that often Board members have very limited time. I would recommend doing an executive session at a meeting without the Exec Director and reach an agreement on how to manage this challenge first.

    5. Fairy*

      The nonprofit must indicate on its tax forms if the board is reviewing the ceo/ed

      That said must boards do a terrible job at this. I wouldn’t have my hopes up. You might talk to the chair or another officer about your concerns

  36. Ceanothus*

    I need help emotionally detaching from work a little. I have a job that I theoretically like a lot — meaningful work that I’m good at, flexible, decent pay — but things are really disorganized, and I find myself stretched thinner and thinner making sure we meet compliance requirements. (I got a lot out of the letter this week about training compliance.)

    I depend on other programs for things, and when they miss deadlines I miss deadlines — and our upper management is loath to push their other staff — or even make it clear that not finishing things on schedule is an issue.

    I didn’t have a boss for almost two years and I was spackling the cracks as best I could. Now I HAVE a boss — hired for his SME — who lacks a lot of office skills (he didn’t know his email had a “sent” folder, his memos are ridden with typos, he hasn’t reviewed the program process documents (which predate me)). He doesn’t think anything he doesn’t know how to do can be difficult. He’s also pretty sexist and condescending (affable but condescending) and about two years from retirement.

    I know that I need a new job, but I also need advice on how to stop spinning more and more plates — and how to let things fail.

    1. Water Everywhere*

      It is hard to step back (gets easier with practice!) but so much better for your stress levels! I like the mantra of ‘you cannot care more about the company’s success than the company does’. If you are picking up all of the slack then management only sees that the work is getting done, not that you are doing 150% of it. Stick to doing your own 100%, send your normal deadline reminders to the other programs, continue to point your boss to process docs and help files (if you are a woman, sounds to me like he thinks anything ‘secretarial’ is beneath him & therefore you should do it (eyeroll)). Start and stop your workday on schedule. Let upper management feel the effects of not, y’know, MANAGING. And if they try to make consequences fall on you, well that’s further evidence that this is not the workplace for you.

    2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      If you actually are conscientious and care about the work, then letting things fail is helping. Management don’t see the problems because you are hiding them. Stop hiding the problems. Make it clear why you are missing deadlines.

      When I could see a deadline was looming and Other Team was obviously going to miss theirs no matter what I said, I would just turn around and let my boss know. “My deadline is Thursday, but I haven’t heard anything from Other Team.” Don’t work OT, put in your normal hours. You can’t care more than they do. If there will be fines, all the better.

      Sorry about sucky sexist boss whom I assume is making things worse instead of better. Since he’s so sure it’s all really easy, maybe you can dump some of your “easy” tasks on him?

    3. Mad Harry Crewe*

      You cannot solve their business problems with your fragile human body. You have a job, not a calling or a mandate from the gods. Show up, do your job, leave at the end of the day. They are paying you for an amount of work – give them that amount of work, and not an iota more.

    4. Qwerty*

      Can you rip off the bandaid?

      I had a bit of a health thing recently that meant I had to log off at 5pm each day and be unavailable all evening and weekend. I did give my boss a bit of a heads up that things were going to start failing and we both needed to be ok with that. At first I was stressed but after a week and half…it was pretty great. Stuff did fail, but I got through it.

      My other recommendation is to get something outside of work to focus on. I got really great advice last year not to think of it as work/life balance, but to have three priorities (for me it is work, family, and volunteering at a specific org). When it comes to work vs personal, it is easy for work to win and creep up on you. When there is that third item competing for attention, it really puts stuff in perspective and limits the ability to care about work.

  37. That Crazy Cat Lady*

    Short version: I’ve been at my job for a little over a year. In that time, I have excelled and taken on multiple new projects that are quite outside the scope of what I was hired for. With my manager’s encouragement and full support, I petitioned Big Boss for a raise due to my ever-increasing workload.

    Well…I was told no, basically. They believe I am paid fairly. I then asked if I could scale back my workload, given than I am doing much more than I was originally hired to do. Also no. They are happy with my work and would like me to keep doing those projects.

    So…where do I go from here? I keep getting told things like, “advocate for yourself!” and “negotiate!” But…how are you supposed to do any of that if the answer is just a flat no? There was no negotiating involved.

    1. FashionablyEvil*

      You did advocate for yourself and it sounds like you made a clear case for a raise based on workload and increased responsibilities. Your choice now is to decide if you’re happy with the compensation for the work you’re doing or not. If not, I would start looking for a new job.

    2. I strive to Excel*

      Next step is to stop doing overwork.

      Has the ever-increasing workload resulted in longer hours? Time for that to stop. If you have conflicting deadlines, start emailing boss. “Hi boss – I’ve got 8 hrs left on project A and 4 hrs left on project B and only 6 hours left in my week. Which do you want me to focus on?” If asked to take on a new project – “sure! which project do you want me to bump?”

      Also: does this workplace have a regular performance review cycle? Are regular raises a thing? It might be that they want to hold off until the regular review.

    3. WellRed*

      Of course they are happy with your work and workload. No need to change the status quo on their end! Stop and drop tasks.

      1. WellRed*

        I just reread and saw your manager encouraged you to ask big boss for a raise. It’s odd to me that your manager didn’t advocate on your behalf for a raise. Is this a small Compton division where the big boss likes to bestow his largesse only when the urge strikes?

    4. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      When I start to feel overworked, I list out all my projects and asking my supervisor to tell me what I should be prioritizing. The unspoken part being, of course, “If I’m prioritizing A, B and C, then X, Y, and Z won’t be getting my attention.” I used to feel petty doing this earlier in my career, but now I see it as a necessary way to communicate my limits without flat-out saying “nope, not doing that.”

  38. cheburashka*

    I know you shouldn’t leave a job unless you have another job lined up, and that the market is bad enough that I’m lucky to have a paycheck and insurance at all.

    But my current position is in an overwhelmingly dysfunctional nonprofit with rumblings of a mass staff exodus on the horizon, and my mental health is in the toilet. (Think of something social work-adjacent, where boundaries are very thin on the ground and people’s emotions can affect the entire flavor of a workday.) I’ve only been applying for about three weeks, and finding a new job has always taken a few months in the past. So I’m not expecting to land anything for a while.

    In the meantime, I’ve been having panic attacks before, during, and after work, and my sleep and digestion are bad and getting worse. One of my parents has been hospitalized for the last five months, too, which surely doesn’t help. I feel like I’m drowning, but I also feel like quitting is a stupid decision that will only make future employment harder. At what point does your mental health matter more than your paycheck?

    (For what it’s worth, I do have savings and a financially liquid partner. I could quit and be okay for a long time, if I were willing to be reliant on them. But I am very reluctant to torch my own career chances going forward.)

    1. mreasy*

      Nothing is more important than your health. What would be worse for your career is having worse and worse mental health. If you have savings, take the time to leave and regroup. It will be better in the long run!

    3. DrSalty*

      Don’t destroy your health for a shitty job, especially if you have resources you can fall back on. Can you take a leave of absence and use it to job search?

    4. hypoglycemic rage*

      last fall I quit my toxic job with nothing lined up. (I want to note that I was not the only person to have done this.) management was…. a lot and I cried at my desk multiple days a week. I was looking to leave anyway, but I suddenly got put on phase 2 of a pip and decided to quit rather than wait/risk being fired. it took a day of thinking about it before I finally decided to leave, and I believe I posted here that day on an open thread. people telling me that I should leave if I could really helped.

      it was, hands down, the best decision I ever did. I was unemployed for about 4 months (finding something else has also always taken me some time), and I am extremely lucky I had savings to fall back on. it wasn’t an easy or quick process, but my mental health was definitely better than it was when I was going to that job day in and day out.

      so, if you can swing it, I definitely would leave.

      I will also say, I can’t speak to your specific field, but quitting is not a death sentence for jobs, and it’s easier to explain quitting than being fired (NOT that you’re at risk of that, obviously, I am just saying from experience).

    5. Mad Harry Crewe*

      You won’t be torching your own career chances going forward. Make a plan with your partner (that includes taking a few weeks just to recover from this awful job) and identify backup plans and timelines. And then take care of yourself.

    6. Tio*

      You should manage your health, but is it possible to go to a doctor and get FMLA leave that you can use, in part, to job search during? At the very least, it would be a few extra weeks of paychecks before you quit.

      1. cheburashka*

        My workplace is under the minimum size for FMLA, unfortunately. I considered going on leave when my parent’s health originally took a turn, but my understanding is that an organization doesn’t have to offer FMLA if there are fewer than 50 employees. I’m one of roughly a dozen.

        1. TPS Reporter*

          if you have an HR person at least ask them about options? Some states have more extensive requirements for leave than what is offered by FMLA

    7. Cazaril*

      Taking a break to deal with family issues is easily explained in a job search. It will not torch your career.

  39. human-woman*

    Due to a restructure, I’ve gone from having a mixed team of creatives, people leaders and project managers who were all specialized and took on new work based on their specialty, to a group of project managers who all have roughly the same job description and take on new work based on capacity. (I am in marketing.) I am scrambling to find a way to visualize the team’s capacity over the coming weeks and months so I can accurately scope and assign projects and manage stakeholder expectations. Does anyone use tools or processes that work well for this? We use Asana and are exploring some of the features, but it’s trial and error so far. Also open to advice on the people side – how to more effectively use 1:1s or team meetings to gauge and plan capacity.

    1. the cat's pajamas*

      We did this at a previous job with a regular shared spreadsheet. It was meant to be lightweight so not necessarily 100% accurate but was a general overview of capacity. I still use a personal version of this to this day for my own time management.

      Each column was a week, each row had name for first column, then project name then estimated percentage of work, plus one for vacation/pto. It had auto totaling and color coding so people with higher workloads would be yellow/red as they approached 100% capacity. There were group totals, too. You could customize this for your needs.

      Trying an example, hopefully it will work with formatting.
      ******** |Week of
      ***** ***| **********|8/19 | 8/26 | …
      Person1 | Project 1 |10%|80% |…
      Person1 | Project 2 |80%|20% |…
      Person1 availability |10% |0%|
      Person2 | Project 1 |50%|80% |…
      Person2| Project 2 |0% | 20% |…
      Person2 availability |50% |20%|…

  40. phdstudent*

    I got a number wrong in front of senior people in my field and I’m still really embarrassed about it and dreading any future conferences. Anybody have advice for how to move past a big mistake?

    The context: I’m a PhD student (going into my second year). I was at a huge international conference a few weeks ago presenting the results of my first project (about to submit it to a journal). The presentation went well and my advisors were happy with the presentation. Later that week, a VERY senior prof from another university said he’d like to chat about my work sometime. During the cocktail hour that evening, I ran into him with a group of people from his university and he asked me to explain my project. I started to and he cut me off and said “I did that 20 years ago. It’s been done.”. I tried to clarify “you did X method for Y topic and focused on Z-type of results?” and he said yes, then started to ask if I even did (niche set of calculations that aren’t relevant to my project). I tried to explain that wasn’t the focus of my project, but I might look into that later in my PhD studies, but he just kept going on about how great his work is and how he’s solved all the questions in the field already. Another person from the group (alumni of other university, current prof at my own uni, but in different department) jumped in and asked why I tried looking at a specific set of numbers. I mentioned a study that also looked at that number and she stopped me and said “That’s not right. That can’t be the number.” I said I probably misremembered and would definitely check the paper, to which she responded “I’m telling you, you’re wrong.” and laughed. Then they all just stared at me and it was painfully awkward and I tried to make an excuse about going to the poster session and left. The blank stares were awful.

    I looked into the senior prof’s paper that he said was the same as my work, and it isn’t the same at all. Same method(ish), but very different context. I realize now that he wasn’t at my talk and didn’t bother to read my abstract, just saw my title and assumed it was the same, and cut me off when I started to talk about the project. I’m still embarrassed I didn’t know about his paper that he said was the same so I couldn’t defend that my work is unique.

    What I’m really embarrassed about is the number I threw out and was told it’s wrong. It totally is. I misremembered the number as being a logarithmic number (2, as in 10^2 = 100) when it was linear (just 2). Logarithmic is the field standard for my sub-field, but the paper definitely makes it clear it’s linear. Just an honest mistake. My advisors have been reading the draft of the paper with the 10^2 number in it for a couple months and didn’t catch it either, but the group from the other university caught it so fast and pointed out it’s unreasonable.

    I’m dreading the idea of ever going back to that conference because I feel like they all think I’m an idiot and doing pointless work. Getting laughed at by the group was so humiliating. I also feel like I let my advisors down because I wasn’t better versed in the field. I really thought when the senior prof said he wanted to talk about my work, he would have at least read my abstract and want to talk about future directions, or details about my project, so I was really caught off-guard by him completely disregarding it.

    I fessed up to my advisors about the whole experience as soon as I saw them later that evening. They reread the paper that the senior prof claimed was the same and confirmed it has no resemblance to my work. Their response to my screw up with the numbers was “It’ll be corrected in the published paper, so it doesn’t matter.”

    I still feel bad I got it so wrong in front of a whole group (to a laughable extent, apparently), especially somebody who’s now a prof at my university. There’s a very good chance one of them will be a reviewer on the paper, and it’s added so much anxiety about the whole project. I don’t think my advisors will bring it up again, since the corrected number doesn’t impact anything other than changing a sentence in my introduction (we are still including the 10^2 calculations because we also looked at 10^-2, so for exploratory purposes it’s reasonable. other papers in the sub-field have gone as far as the range 10^3 to 10^-3.) Since my advisors are over it, I don’t want to bring it back up to them, but remembering the whole experience makes me want to change sub-fields and never think about this project again.

    After we submit this paper, we’ll choose a second project and I’m trying not to let my feelings about the conference impact my work. I don’t want to pass up an interesting topic just so I can avoid this group, but my heart keeps pounding at work and I had a nightmare about the conference recently.

    Anybody have advice for moving past a really embarrassing mistake at work in front of such senior people?

    1. Bloop*

      IMO the senior people in your field should be embarrassed, not you! The first guy was wrong about your paper, and the second one pointed out your mistake in just about the rudest way possible. Academics put out work into the world to be peer reviewed and critiqued; feedback is a good thing and is part of the point of getting your work out there for others to look at. But there is zero reason to be a jerk about it. They are supposed to be mentoring new researchers and helping them learn the ropes. What on earth are they getting out of laughing at you rather than just saying, “hey, you might want to double check this number?”

    2. FashionablyEvil*

      I can see how this feels huge to you, but really, it isn’t. There was a jerk of a senior academic blowing smoke without understanding the details of your work and you made the verbal equivalent of a typo. If they end up reviewing your paper and not liking it, it’ll get rejected and you’ll presumably submit to a second choice journal, right? People who think badgering graduate students is a good use of their time are just jerks.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        I’m in a totally different field, FashionablyEvil, and I’ve met that same type of guy (usually it’s a guy) more than once. People who go on about how great they are while being wrong are in ample supply but most other people see that for what it is. They were most likely inwardly rolling their eyes alongside him hoping he would get to the point. It would have been nice if someone intervened, but humans often feel awkward doing so. He was a jerk who embarrassed himself, not you. And I’d bet a fair amount of money he has no idea. Pay him no mind.

    3. I strive to Excel*

      That’s not on you. People make mistakes – even in published work. Especially in published work! There’s a reason we have peer review.

      The senior prof and the other researcher who laughed at you were jerks. I can’t blame you for being stressed and unhappy about one of them being a reviewer; the best case scenario is that they thought they were sharing a joke, not being mean, but it was unkind. I’d listen to your advisors and mentally bookmark that senior prof as “not someone I ever want as an advisor or to take a class from”.

    4. Feeling Feline*

      If it helps, based on your description, I’m surprised either of them are aware of the other colleague’s existence, let along yours. I don’t think they will have paid attention to anything except themselves.

    5. Nesprin*

      You’ve experienced the Cruddy Senior Professor at a poster session and the Minor Screwup In Front of People. It’s part of the experience of graduate school to go through these- don’t let them deter you from good and interesting work.

      Through these experiences you’ve gotten a better handle on the major papers in the field, an insight into who the CSPs to avoid as reviewers are, experience on how to roll with the punches when you’re wrong and empathy for when other people have MSIFPs. You’re going to be a better researcher after this- don’t let these experiences stop you.

    6. DrSalty*

      Listen to your advisors – this is not a big deal. It feels like it is, but I promise it’s not. I can almost guarantee you no one else involved has given this a second thought. Everyone makes mistakes! That’s part of being a student. You don’t have to know everything and be perfect all the time. The value of learning and growing, and especially bouncing back from setbacks or mistakes with resilience, is one of the most important things you can take away from your PhD. Don’t beat yourself up, just take the lesson and keep moving forward!

    7. penny*

      Academics not following your work closely, and using it for a jumping point for their own self-promotion is fairly standard. With more academic experience you’ll see this over and over. See especially : question at the end of a talk/seminar that has nothing to do with the talk and is professor’s pet theory.

      You misremembering a number you said you didn’t remember is: fine.

    8. Pine Tree*

      The good thing about A-holes like this is that they are so far up their own butt that they will likely not even remember this incident. It seems huge to you, I know, but I’ve known these types of jerks for years. They don’t remember this incident any further then “yes, I recall when I dazzled the group at the bar with my knowledge and prowess…again”

      Please try not to think any more about it!

    9. Chicago Anon*

      Your advisors have your back. That’s excellent news. As for other people at the conference, they probably either won’t remember this event at all, or will just think “Cruddy Senior Prof was being cruddy again.” People like that get a reputation. Sometimes they hold enough power that no one wants to speak up in front of them, but that doesn’t mean people aren’t secretly sympathizing with you, and may make an effort to be nice to you in future to make up. His reaction tells you that he’s actually very insecure about his research, if he needs to impress upon a grad student that “it’s been done.” Even if it had, and I get that you’re doing something other, it might be worth checking again, especially in view of how many papers have been withdrawn in recent years (at least in some areas). And if he were a good researcher, he’d welcome the attention to his area. So really, I don’t think you have anything to worry about! The best revenge is living well: go on doing your work and making connections with decent people, while observing who’s a jerk and avoiding them as you can.

    10. Hyaline*

      I will bet you five whole dollars that 1) this time next week no one and I mean no one and really truly absolutely no one remembers your minor verbal flub but b) everyone meaning everyone meaning really truly everyone remembers what a giant dick this senior prof is. And beyond that, he probably cemented that reputation long ago.

    11. I didn't say banana*

      These academics will not think about this again, they don’t care about the lowly Phzd student they were mean to, I promise. And, as much as they lacked tact, it’s better they told you before the mistake got published.

    12. Brevity*

      Take this as your first opportunity to grow a thicker skin. Everybody here is right — the douche canoes you met at the conference will not remember you at all. They probably won’t even remember the exchange. You will come across “people” — I use the term cautiously — like this all across academia, so you’ll need to learn to recognize the one you don’t need to worry about.

      Second, everyone who comes into contact with these douche canoes knows that they are douche canoes. You will meet a lot of other academics who will hear your met Senior Prof and immediately respond with, “Oh, THAT guy? He probably told you he already did your own research, didn’t he? Yeah, he does that. What a douche.”

      Finally: you are at the very beginning of your career. Senior Douche Canoe is near the end of his — and he knows it. What you witnessed is an example of pure insecurity. Spend as much of your energy as you can on your own brilliant research, being a good academic that fosters other good academics, and forget him. Trust me. As you move through your career doing this, more people will remember you, for being a great academic, and forget him.

    13. Maxwell*

      Look – I totally agree with the other commenters – it’s the other people involved who should be embarrassed. But I figured I’d offer some more actionable advice (which you don’t have to take).

      I made a mistake when defending my master thesis – think something like using the wrong name for a very famous method – and it was caught by the head of the department (where I really wanted to get a phd-position (which I did, btw – yay me!))

      I was so embarrassed. What really helped *me* was sending her an email saying basically: hey, thanks so much for spotting my mistake – it allowed me to correct my paper before turning it in.

      Of course, she wasn’t being mean about it. And you definitely don’t have to send something – but it might bring you some peace of mind. And since you might run into this prof again it might take some of the stress of that away.

      Besides, people like being thanked*, and this will give the prof some positive feelings associated with you – which you can remind yourself of if you start to spiral.

      As I said, feel free to ignore. And mean people don’t deserve your thanks – but it might help. As for the other guy I don’t have any tips (I mean hell, you could probably send him an email as well: “I read over you article – so cool!” Just keep buttering these shitty people up is my tip I guess, haha).

      * One day I will write a thank you note to Alison re: her encouragement in sending thank you notes (to *actually* helpful people), which has been so helpful to me navigating academia as someone who feels fake trying to network, but like the idea of sending honest thank yous’ to nice people – which end up being almost like networking :)

    14. Bart*

      Get ready for similar feedback when you submit the manuscript for publication—how your research isn’t addressing anything new and that you missed vital literature that happens to have been published by the reviewer. Listen to your advisor and learn to shrug it off or save it as a great Reviewer 2 story. We all have them! And mistakes happen. It sounds like it will be corrected and it was a mistake! And maybe avoid those “impressive scholars” when you go to the next conference!

  41. Ready for the weekend*

    My mom passed away this week and I’m trying to figure out how to balance work while helping my family with everything. I freelance for a living and have savings and \ financial support from loved ones if needed. What advice do you have during this time?

    1. Rage*

      I’m so sorry.

      Please be sure to take the time you need. Your freelance clients (unless they are monsters) will be completely understanding that you need to pull back a bit to deal with things and grieve. Don’t make any major decisions. Lean on your support system.

      Also don’t forget to consider that you may have further estate/legal things to deal with in the coming weeks/months, so you might want to build some flexibility for that.

    2. WellRed*

      Take the time off that you need and please know that you’ll probably need more time than you think. I’m sorry for your loss.

    3. Annie Edison*

      I’m so sorry about your mom!

      I am also self-employed and lost my mom about 2 years ago. I would definitely take some time off since you have savings/support. I don’t remember for sure, but I think I took about 2 weeks off and then gave myself permission to do the bare minimum for quite a while after that too. If I’d been able to swing it, I would have taken more.

      I agree with WellRed that you will probably need more time than you think, so if you can make a longer break work financially, go for it. There’s so much logistical stuff to deal with- estate, planning memorial service, etc, that I ended up feeling like I needed a second break after all that to actually process all the emotional side of things.

      I remember feeling really worried about my clients judging me for taking time off, but everyone was really kind and supportive. A few sent me lovely flowers and cards. I also found myself feeling afterwards that the act of taking off my usual “cheerful working robot” mask and admitting that I needed some time ended up building a stronger working relationship with clients overall after I came back. YMMV depending on your exact field and clients, but just want to offer encouragement that taking time isn’t going to hurt your professional reputation in the long run.

  42. McCormick*

    So, I’d love some thoughts from any of you who have worked in both corporate atmospheres and for small businesses/entrepreneurs.

    I started my career working for a large corporation. Pay was decent, benefits were great, and I loved my coworkers, managers, and the structure. I left this company last year to move to a smaller city (my own choice for personal reasons), and quickly found a new job working remotely for a very small business.

    I was super excited about this new job—it had great pay, decent benefits, and promised a lot of freedom and responsibility. However, my boss (the CEO) severely misrepresented the opportunity (she struggled with delegation and still wanted to control everything, despite hiring me directly to take over that work for her), and I discovered that the company was actually severely struggling—the whole team was hit with layoffs and we were all out of a job after only 7 months with the company.

    After a couple months of unemployment, I found a new position at another small local business. I’ve been there for 3 months, and this job is the complete opposite of the previous one. I feel incredibly excited by the work I’m doing, I have tons of projects and my CEO/boss gives me full reigns to own everything A-Z. However, the pay is terrible, the PTO is horrible, and there’s no element of trust or flexibility (screen monitoring software mandated on all devices, no WFH allowed, daily dairy updates on tasks are required.)

    I find myself missing corporate life immensely, and fear I’ve made a huge career mistake by moving into small business. While the projects/actual job duties are in my field and exactly what I love and excel at, I’m getting the vibe that in small business, there is zero accountability for owners who act and manage as they please (I’ve left out a litany of weird “quirks” from both of my entrepreneur bosses—that’s another story completely), and everything just feels so much less STABLE and easy. There are no processes in place for reviews, HR, raise requests, etc., and I am wondering if it’s actually a “me problem” for expecting too much from a small business.

    I’m going to stick it out for a year because I’m now afraid of looking like a job-hopper, but…are all small businesses “quirky” like this (Especially family run ones)? Should I just try my hardest to get back into boring old corporate life where I belong? Would love to hear anyone’s experiences with small businesses.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Small businesses are more likely to be quirky. They don’t generally have HR departments. However, they will all be quirky in their own ways. I work for a small business right now, and yeah, there’s quirks. A lot of it is because of the founder/owner. Some things are because of the family dynamic between one the owner and one of the managers. But overall, it’s ok.

      When you’re interviewing with a small business, its helpful to talk to non-owner employees.

      1. McCormick*

        Thanks so much—this is a good gut check for me.

        I think one of the things I’m struggling with most is knowing whether my acclimation issues are due to myself, or /these particular/ small businesses. Both are woman-owned brands that have relatively large cult followings on social media, and both CEOs have kind of an “influencer-lite” presence online in relation to their brands. As a result, the vibe I’ve gotten is that while they both are savvy, trend-focused and hungry entrepreneurs, they lack the skills of people management and business strategy, which largely causes aforementioned “quirks.”

        I can’t tell what’s just a hazard of working for a small business, and what’s just the nature of these kinds of niche ecomm small businesses whose owners also consider themselves the “face of the brand.”

        1. MsM*

          It probably doesn’t help. Small nonprofits have a lot of the same tradeoffs (more scope to try big things, but also bigger impact if even one person with any kind of power shouldn’t have that power), and while I’d also rather not work anywhere without HR again, I’m even more reluctant to work somewhere that doesn’t have a strong administrative team and practical board members to balance out visionary, personality-focused leaders.

        2. I'm A Little Teapot*

          “cult”, “influencer” – these terms tell me that they are likely not going to be following professional norms.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I started my career at a big corporation (household name), did three stints at much smaller businesses, then got back into corporate. My experiences at the smaller businesses varied widely– one of them was a true horror show, another was a subtle horror show– and yeah, I just really prefer corporate. I like access to benefits, I like having an HR department, I like having options to move around to other departments. I also like having a true chain of command rather than a nebulous sense of “the CEO is at the top and the rest of you all work for him and that’s it.”

      I don’t think all small businesses are terrible. I think a smartly run small business can be a great place to work, especially if you like a lot of visibility. But some of us do better with the structure that being corporate provides and there’s nothing wrong with that.

    3. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      Your post gave me heart palpitations! I couldn’t exist anywhere but large-ish corporations for all the reasons you listed. I don’t think you’d be seen as a job hopper if you made it clear that you WANT to work for a large company. I always tell people who are new to our company that it’s great because “it’s small enough that you get to know people and can make a difference, but big enough that it has ample resources and opportunities for growth.” You can use that in an interview if you want. ;)

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      If it’s any consolation, I spent most of my career working for mom-and-pop places and only recently made the jump to more corporate work. It has been a nightmare going that direction as well. I think that rather than it being a function of size, it’s one of culture. I think of Robert Fulghum’s line of finding a “mutually satisfying weirdness.” But in the end, that’s part of why “We treat our employees like family” is such a red flag around here.

    5. Tio*

      When you have a small company – be it a regular business, startup, or nonprofit – The top of management affects every single person much more strongly because you will interact with them in a way you don’t in a larger company. As said above, they also don’t tend to have HR departments, and depending on size are exempt from some federal laws as well. And since the owners tend to be the ones completely in charge with no oversight, that means you have very little recourse if you think they’re doing something wrong, and no expectation that they have any business experience. Many small businesses fail precisely because of this.

      Small businesses tend to be more stable when started by people who are not influencer vibes, but people who have come from larger companies where they may have had a chance to learn better business practices tend to be better at running these as they have more framework for business work. If you’re looking again, and looking at a small business, I would suggest strongly looking at the boss’s work history to see what they’ve done before starting this business. If they were in low-level positions or smaller businesses, much less likely they’d have a good knowledge base for setting up their own business. And especially if the company is newer, they may not have the margin to outsource to companies that can do the things they don’t know, like benefits or payroll. Larger companies tend to have already gone through these pains and sorted out these issues already because otherwise they’d have fallen apart more thoroughly before then. At that size, you both attract more knowledgeable talent, see a wider variety of circumstances, and have less margin for error for liability reasons that they’ve sorted those things out already.

  43. Shy little mouse in a beige sweater*

    College student who double majored here: does anyone, on the employer side or otherwise, care about someone having two Bachelorses from the same institution? I’m in a weird situation where based on the credits I’ve taken I could get a second BA in my second major with very little effort, but I would be delaying my graduation by a semester to do so.

    The majors are very different but neither one is obviously remunerative (e.g. comp sci) or relevant to my career plans, if that makes a difference.

    1. FashionablyEvil*

      Unless directly relevant to a job, no. I would actually use caution in graduating in an “off” semester–some large firms only do entry level hiring for spring/summer graduates. I finished in December and had an offer for a job that wouldn’t start until May of the following year. May or may not be relevant to your field, but something to consider.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If the subjects of the degrees aren’t going to make a substantial difference to your ongoing career path, I wouldn’t spend the money or time to get another BA. The details of your bachelor’s degree are surprisingly irrelevant for most jobs that ask for them.

    3. Box of Kittens*

      I would say not unless you’re really interested in the subject, especially if neither is relevant to your career plans. I also did a double degree because I was interested in a secondary subject and the classes overlapped just enough to make two degrees doable in four years, but my second degree has never come up or been useful and I’ve since taken it off my resume. I don’t necessarily regret doing that, because I was interested in the subject and didn’t have to add semesters, but for me it did not make a difference in job hunting at all. Especially given that a lot of recruiters are removing the requirement for a Bachelors degree depending on the job, I would not say it’s worth it from a job-hunting standpoint.

    4. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Will you actually GET two degrees with a double major? My husband double majored and did not get two degrees, he had to pick one to go on his diploma and the other one doesn’t show up at all, he can just tell people he double majored.
      Might want to clarify that before spending the time & $$ on another semester.

      1. Julesogreen*

        Sounds to me like they’ve got the double major, what they’re asking about is a second degree.

        I was in a similar situation-got a B.S. in Civil Engineering (that’s the full title of the degree); minored in Chemistry. Could have added a BA in chem with a little more time, but didn’t.

        OP, I’d say skip the double degree, unless it’s something that might count towards a license or something.

    5. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If I am specifically hiring for adaptable, smart, hard-working college graduates who I could throw into a bunch of different situations, that would give you a definite bump on my resume screen.

      But let’s say I am specifically hiring for a defined slot – junior accountant, for example – and you have both a BS Business and a BA History. Then your extra degree is probably just going to be a tiebreaker for me.

      Either way, it wouldn’t be a negative for me unless you took 7-8 years to get those degrees. Which indicates to me that you’d rather spend your life in academia.

    6. EMP*

      Doesn’t matter if it’s not relevant to your career. A college friend of mine who double degreed in business and biology actually left the biology degree off her resume because it held her back when applying for business consultant jobs. Do it if you want to and can afford it!

    7. Meh*

      If you get 2 actual degrees and can financially swing it, go for it. A semester is 4 months. A degree is for life – you never know where your career will go and when or how it might come in handy.

    8. Policy Wonk*

      This is really dependent on what the degrees are – some professions are pretty strict on having the appropriate degree (sciences, accounting) but absent that requirement the important thing is that you have a degree, not what it’s in. Not sure two Bachelors degrees would make a difference unless they are in technical fields.

    9. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I got two masterses from the same institution at basically the same time, and at least for me it doesn’t really matter. I was going to do a MBA and a public administration certificate, but my undergrad was not in business so I had to take some electives first, and it turned out that between the year of electives (which made up a business concentration because they didn’t contribute to my MBA coursework) and the classes in the public administration certificate, I was actually only one class and a comp final short of turning the certificate into a MPA. But it didn’t extend my intended time frame any because it was only one extra class and the comp final was one week at the end of my final semester. I also have two BS degrees, which are in only sort of vaguely adjacent fields and which I did NOT get at the same time – one before grad school and one after – and that doesn’t much matter either.

    10. A Significant Tree*

      I double majored but didn’t have the credits for a full second BA without staying an extra semester. When I asked a couple of professors about it, they recommended against getting a second BA unless I really wanted it for its own sake. As it is, my transcript mentions both of my majors so it’s clear I have a background in both. Since they’re complementary fields, I’ve always put both on my resume (BA in Field A and Field B) and no one has ever asked if that’s one degree or two.

      So, I wouldn’t pay for an extra semester unless, as others point out, the timing for your job market is better if you graduate before or after the extra semester.

    11. Hyaline*

      I’m really not seeing a benefit from a BA in X and a BA in Y over a BA in X and Y–that is, two degrees in different majors instead of just double majoring. I’ll be honest, I can see employers not even making the distinction when they see identical graduation dates for both degrees. Like, if it’s something you want to do, go for it, but I don’t think it’s a huge career path add.

      That said, if putting in some more work for another degree appeals to you, investigate accelerated master’s programs. Putting in an extra year for a master’s makes a ton more sense than an extra semester for a second bachelor’s.

    12. kalli*

      I have a double degree with honours because my program was set up like that from the start.

      It’s not much more than a talking point, even though my BA can be deemed useful (a second language with a decent population who primarily/only speak it – my current job always have 1-2 clients who feel more comfortable using it, but in my entire career I’ve used it twice, once as a marketing ornament) and it rarely comes up in hiring beyond ‘wow you did a double degree you must be super conscientious I could never’. I don’t take it off mainly because it explains why my degree took 1.5 years longer than it normally would (one year extra for the double and half a year extra doing honours part time along with my professional certificate).

      Because my degree ended basically with a placement and hiring requires a professional certificate that can be granted at any time of the year, I didn’t experience any time-based hiring issues as hiring does happen year round, but what I did experience was immediately being less competitive than people graduating with me but who started their degree later, and very soon being put behind more recent graduates, alongside there generally being more graduates than jobs. My second degree wasn’t enough to differentiate me from people who had done more professional placements, got better internships, had clerkships, or were local and had local familial, high school or otherwise status-based networks. I got a job and got sick, and I only managed to get hired in my field again by going admin and because of COVID, where an admin who didn’t need training and was happy to WFH was more of a selling point than being able to speak a second language – especially as professional translators exist and should be used under professional ethics guidelines.

      Having a very different second degree can be useful as a soft skill if you can link it to specific skills or logical approaches, and it’s a lot easier to explain if you have the certification than if you don’t. In my main degree I specialised in employment and human relations, but actual HR jobs wouldn’t take me because I didn’t have a specific HR qualification, despite having actual work experience in employment law and WHS and workers comp enough that a graduate role would not have been beyond me at all, especially the ones that included a traineeship for the certificate they were looking for, or junior admin. If there’s anything about it that could be relevant to your career plans (for example, when anyone asks me about communication or written English, I can say my law degree included plain English, interviewing and mediation techniques, and in my job where I spent a lot of time translating legalese to plain English, I was able to build on those foundations) then having the second degree can be useful to quantify those soft skills beyond just examples from your history.

      And also you never know where your career will take you; they could be relevant or provide a foundation for something else later on – it’s harder to get the degree later or to use it to test out of requirements for professional training if you didn’t actually complete it.

  44. L-squared*

    I know this is me overthinking, but I just need someone to talk me through it. Preferably if you are a hiring manager or typically part of the hiring process.

    I had, what I felt, was a really good 2nd(ish) interview this week on Tuesday. And they said they’d get back to me by end of week with either next steps, or letting me know I wouldn’t be moving on. I really want this job. It a company that I interviewed with years ago, and made it pretty far. It just so happened I got another offer that needed an answer before this one was ready to make a final decision, so I took that one.

    And I’ll be honest, the fact that I’ve heard nothing back is making me feel like I’m not moving forward. I feel like if they wanted to, they would’ve told me by now in order to schedule something for next week. There were 2 people on the call, and I know they had to debrief with each other. But being that its noon on a Friday, I’m just feeling kind of defeated that I’m going to get something at the end of the day with “thanks, but no”. In which case, I’d wonder why they waited this long to tell me. Or, they’ll just ghost me as so many companies do.

    And look, I fully understand that 3 days isn’t terribly long, but they set the “end of the week” expectation.

    1. Parenthesis Guy*

      They very well could be interviewing a number of different people and are waiting to talk with all of them before getting back any particular person. They may only want to schedule an third-round interview with one or two candidates.

      Did you tell these people that you got an offer from someone else? If you did that, then they probably would have made a decision about your candidacy sooner.

      1. L-squared*

        If you are asking about my past interactions with them, yes. I said I have an offer I need to let them know by X date. Can you make a decision by then? And they said no.

    2. Ginger Cat Lady*

      1. You likely are not the only candidate. So this isn’t a matter of “we need to have a quick debrief with each other” it is also likely a “we’re interviewing Joaquin on Thursday and Petra on Friday morning, then we will meet Friday afternoon to decide”
      2. Stuff happens to slow the process, so even though they expected to let you know by the end of the week, they may not have taken other things into account. So say they have that Friday afternoon meeting to decide. They tell HR after their meeting to send you an offer. HR might not be able to immediately turn around the offer.
      3. Unexpected delays happen. One of the other candidates may have had to reschedule to Monday. One of the interviewers might be sick in bed with Covid today (yes, Covid is still very much here!)
      You may or may not hear back today. You may or may not get hired. Your best bet is to distract yourself. Look for and apply to other jobs, just in case. Or go see a movie. etc. If I had heard “by the end of the week” on Wednesday, I 100% would have mentally thought NEXT week, not this week.

    3. Bean Counter Extraordinaire*

      The last couple of people we hired in my department (I was part of the interview process, but the department manager made the verbal offer phone calls), the “Hey we’d like to hire you” calls happened between 4:00-4:30 on that Friday. So don’t lose hope just yet!

    4. Decidedly Me*

      Recently, I was told I would hear back after an interview “Wednesday at the very latest”. I heard back on Thursday :) Timelines get delayed for all sorts of reasons. They may have others they are interviewing today and are waiting for those to complete before deciding who is moving on.

      On the hiring manager side, I’ve had a gazillion things interrupt previously stated timelines. I try to reach back out when this happens, but haven’t always.

    5. Qwerty*

      Hiring Manager here – always assume it will take longer than their estimate.

      There are more steps than just those two needing to debrief each other. They need to write up their notes and there’s probably a couple other people who need to filled in. You don’t know how many other people are in the second round that need to finish their interviews before deciding who to move forward with – one of those could have gotten delayed, someone at the company could be out unexpectedly or they just forgot they need input from someone on PTO. Or even just the week flew by and they didn’t realize its Friday already. This is high priority for you – not so much for them.

    6. JobSearchTimelines*

      It is very normal to miss these informal deadlines. I usually follow up once 2-3 days after they said they’d get back to me then cut my losses after that.

  45. Name name neame*

    How do you get a good feel for what a job would be like if the interview was entirely virtual and there isn’t an option to visit (assume that’s not too unreasonable for this case, I know it would generally be a very very bad sign)? I would normally get a sense of less tangible cultural aspects from seeing what the space is like, how people dress and interact with each other, etc, and am feeling very lost without that. I’ve had multiple roles in the same org that have similar tasks but very different office cultures and it mattered to how much I enjoyed them.

    2. Bitte Meddler*

      Ask for 1:1 virtual meetings with at least two of the people you’d be working with.

      And, if possible, ask for a small team meeting, where the team is in a conference room together, so you can observe (a) how they are dressed, and (b) how they interest with each other.

      Also ask for a description of the space you’d be working in (open floor plan? short cubes? tall cubes? individual offices?).

  46. Sandy*

    Anyone have experience with BetterUp? My company has subscribed to what I think is a corporate version (we only get coaching for 30 minutes once a quarter). I’m struggling, I find the questions inappropriate for work – delving into mental health areas. Plus we have a lot of new people managers which our company’s version seems to be tailored for. While I’m an individual contributor with 35+ YOE. Thoughts?

    1. The Unionizer Bunny*

      Is this coaching mandatory? If it’s optional, is it being used to meet the company’s obligation to provide benefits?

      Even if it’s not categorized as part of your benefits, I have concerns over the chance that your company is using participation to form impressions of employee’s motivation or qualifications re: promotions . . . if “answering questions in what amounts to a post-employment psychiatric exam” is a condition of being equally considered for promotions, the company is likely violating the ADA.

      Don’t worry about proving which (of “requiring post-employment exams” and “discriminating against employees in opportunity”) is right. Either way, the company would be liable, and the government wants to find out about these promptly so it can investigate.

    2. Desdemona*

      I found an AMAZING exec coach through betterup and he helped me a ton— even while I was figuring out how to quit the job that was paying for betterup!

      Some of the coaches will be good and some won’t, so do your diligence to find a good fit for you.

      Betterup will report some stats to your company (to justify their investment) but it will be anonymized. Things like: after 6 months, employees who used betterup reported being happier at work.

  47. IL JimP*

    So quick question to see what you all think

    I originally got laid off in Feb 2022 of a job I was at for 14+ years. I did manage to get a job that May 2022 but only was there until September 2022 so only about 4-5 months then couldn’t get a job until March of this year in 2024.

    I know I probably need to stay here at least a year maybe 2 but my question is on my resume do I take off that short stint when I start applying having basically a 2 year gap or leave it in and have to explain it in every interview?

    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Depends on why you left in Sept 2022. Part of a mass layoff? Leave it there.
      Quit because it wasn’t good for you? Get fired for cause? Leave it off.

  48. Unemployed in Greenland.*

    Howdy, folks! I hope everyone is gearing up to have a good weekend. Thank you in advance for any thoughts you could offer on the following:

    I received word recently, from higher ups, that not only my two co-workers but also my boss will be retiring May 2025. This will leave me as the single person in the unit, down from four total. While the higher-ups will undoubtedly get a plan together for coverage of tasks, to say nothing of hiring additional people, 1) I don’t know the time frame for it, and 2) I’m feeling a bit ‘deer in the headlights’ at the moment.

    If you knew your entire unit would be just you, in 9 months, what do you think would be most important things you could do, in order to prepare?

    or … would you jump ship?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Ask the higher ups. What’s the timeline for getting replacements for new people in? Will there be a reorg of job duties since we’re down 3 people? (ie will they just close your department and slide you somewhere else?). If they don’t have good answers, or if the answer is you do the work of 3 people – jump ship. I’d also look at what’s going on that all 3 quit at the same time, is it just the first available retirement date or are there issues they are happy to be leaving behind if you get my gist.

    2. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I’d wait to learn what the plan is. I’d ask to be involved in planning for the change. And if it looks like the plan is to promote you to lead/manager and hire new people, I’d consider staying. (But if you don’t ever want to be a manager, your choice might be different.) If the plan is a one person department, I’d run fast and far. And I’d make that clear in the planning process.

    3. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      Well, there’s something to be said for job security! :) I think it depends on your personality. Can you disengage during the interim and do your best and not worry about what’s not getting done? Or will it be stressful to feel the weight of 4 people’s workloads on your shoulders?

    4. OldHat*

      I’d try to encourage them to write a desk manual of their duties with some background on what, when, why, and how as well as try to vamp instructions as much as possible. When new people are hired, they will come to you for institutional knowledge and having something writing is a start. Make sure this documentation is in a shared space, especially since IT might delete their local drives. Timelines are never perfect, so this is to give you some support. It will also help identify what might be slipping through the cracks and why you might need additional support is specific areas.

    5. Bitte Meddler*

      I would ask your boss if they’ve started the hiring process for replacing the soon-to-be-empty roles.

      If the org is ramping up searches for all three positions, then that bodes well for your work level. If it takes 3 months to hire 2-3 people, that still leaves 6 months for training side-by-side with the existing folks.

      If there’s no solid plan for hiring replacements, I’d dust off my resume and dip my toe back into the job search process. Just in case.

    6. Hyaline*

      Well you’ve got a good deal of lead time, so I wouldn’t stress about it yet–but I would ask what the plans are for replacing people in these roles and how training new people would go. There’s a possibility (not knowing your workplace at all) that a department of four having 3/4 retire at once could have upper management looking at consolidation or reorganization, and I’d want to be apprised of that, too. Basically–you have forewarning, so start having conversations. If the conversations give you bad vibes or go nowhere….well, that’s a different question.

    7. Part time lab tech*

      Can you sit in on the interviews for new hires? You’re the only one who will be working with them long term.

  49. Justin*

    Hiring question:

    Moving rapidly through an interview process.

    All things being equal (they are all qualified and seem capable of the work and they seem interested in the job), I have two questions for you all:

    The job can be remote. I go into the office twice a week just because I like to. Some of the candidates have explicitly told me they want to. That doesn’t NOT have an impact on me in that it would be fun as there’s usually no one there. (Again, they’re all qualified.) Am I being a sadboi in finding that appealing?

    Similarly, I’m kind of an energizer bunny battering ram who gets a lot done. Some of the candidates are Very Similar to me in demeadnor, and some are just as hard working but have more finesse than I do. Have you found more success bringing on people whose work styles matched yours or those who had different approaches?

    Ultimately I don’t think I can make a bad choice here aside from the fact that I like all of them and don’t want to make people sad (though HR sends the rejections) but such is a career.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      You should be deciding who to hire on factors that aren’t
      1. How often will they come in person
      2. Impressions of how energetic they are

      Instead look at: do they have relevant work experience, technical skills, job specific skills, their backgrounds/degrees/certificates, expertise you don’t have on your team yet, what are their long term career goals, what did their references say about working with them, how articulate were they in the interview, how organized and independent are they, etc

      One further caution – hiring people based on how they vibe with you – is a big issue and likely to get a team that is discriminatory against different genders/ethnicity’s/ages.

      1. Justin*

        To your last point, yes, though it’s actually likely in this particular case to benefit women of color (the applicant pool is predominantly women and I’m Black). But still not ideal, you’re right.

    2. Antilles*

      If you don’t think the role needs or is improved by in-person presence, you should just ignore that factor period. There’s nothing wrong with thinking it’d be nice to have someone else around to chit-chat with, but you should treat it the same as if a candidate mentioned they also like your favorite sports team. Don’t consider it in your hiring process at all; it’s just a nice added bonus at the very end if it works out.
      As for the demeanor, I think teams work better with more variety in styles. Every demeanor and style has both positives and negatives. “Battering ram” is a good way to get things done, but someone with a more patient mindset can help identify flaws in the approach or think of a better way to go forward that doesn’t come naturally to you.

    3. Qwerty*

      Do you find working together in person to be helpful to the team? If so, then it is valid to take into account. Even if not – it sounds like you are using it as a tie-breaker. When you have multiple people that you’d be happy to hire, then you get to take smaller stuff into account.

      With the work styles – consider the impact of having two very similar people. Some jobs this will go great. Others it will clash horribly. Based on your self description, it sounds like someone with finesse may complement your style. I could see two energizer bunny battering rams driving other departments nuts if they were in sync or driving each nuts if they were not in sync.

  50. Sherm*

    Is this “job” a scam?

    A friend of mine is looking to switch industries. He got a gig selling insurance. It is commission only. Although I have some side-eye for such arrangements, I know they exist. However, he also has to PAY for what he calls “leads,” that is, the contact information of potential buyers. I suppose that if the leads proved to be an amazing return of investment, they would be worth it, but my understanding is that he hasn’t made a single sale despite several months of trying. Some people in the lists have told him not to contact him again. He mentions going to meetings (online, I presume), but I don’t know what on earth they could be talking about. I would certainly leave in a heartbeat, although I fear he is succumbing to a sunk-cost fallacy. Thanks in advance for any replies.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Pretty typical situation for insurance sales. But also, terrible. If he’s not cracking the code and making money, it’s time to get out. At this point he’s just paying the company for the privilege of qualifying their bad leads.

    2. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Commisssion ONLY? No base pay? And he has to pay the employer for “leads” that are going nowhere?
      That’s either a scam or the worst industry in the world.

    3. Maggie*

      Idk if it’s 100% a scam if they were up front with that information and he took this “job” any way, but it’s definitely predatory and a really bad waste of his time. There might be people for whom the commission is worth it I guess, I used to do telephone fundraising and this one lady got so many donations it was actually crazy and idk how she did it.

  51. A. Ham*

    Super low stakes question.
    I work for a company that is 100% remote. When I started, in addition to my laptop they sent me monitors, dock, key board, mouse, etc and gave me a budget for additional setup needs. That was about a year and a half ago. Everything still works- I haven’t even had to replace the batteries in the mouse/keyboard. BUT multiple letters have rubbed off the keyboard from use. The N, M, L and O are gone and the S and some others are getting there.
    The thing is, I’m a good typist, so I’m only rarely looking down which makes this more of an annoyance than anything. This also seems really soon to have a problem with office equipment. I have had keyboards for years before that didn’t get this way, so I don’t know why this one is doing this so fast.
    Do I have standing to ask for a new one, or do I just live with it since technically it still works?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Ask your IT if you can trade your keyboard in. If its a hassle just write in metallic sharpie or get stickers to put the letters back on.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you should ask. Keyboards tend to be a relatively low cost for IT, so I don’t think it hurts to ask.

    3. WellRed*

      Ha! My letters are wearing off and I have zero qualms about asking for a replacement. Keyboards are cheap,

      1. WellRed*

        Oh and also have not had this happen before. Maybe we both have the same crappy product or keyboards are getting worse in general?

        1. BikeWalkBarb*

          Quite a few of my letters on my work laptop have worn off down to the clear plastic of the keys, within roughly 18-24 months of getting it. This happened on a previous laptop and someone in IT told me it’s something to do with my personal chemistry as if my fingers have special radioactive acid qualities that zap the letters. Given that nothing of the kind happens on my personal laptop (different brand though) I’m not sure I can go with this theory. I think it’s cheap paint or plastic coating or whatever they put on the keyboard letters.

    4. Ashley*

      You could always phrase it as a hey fyi this is happening if it is more of just an annoyance issue and not a problem. How they respond can tell you a lot. At best you get a new one at the least you hopefully stop someone else from having this problem. It is kind of a low stakes way to approach something in an office culture where you aren’t sure.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If it’s bugging you, and painting on some new letters isn’t your thing, I’d casually mention it some day when talking with your boss. “Hey, my keyboard works, but the letters are rubbed off — do you know if that’s happening to anyone else?” Then hopefully boss will tell you the way to resolve it — ordering one from the office supply person, or maybe sending you one that’s kicking around the office, or whatever. Or boss will say, too bad, and then you know you should take a stroll to Walmart and pick up a new one.

      Personally, I’d love the opportunity to customize my keyboard with letter decals.

    6. Donkey Hotey*

      Was the “budget for additional setup” a one-time thing or recurring? (My wife gets a monthly stipend for office supplies and upkeep.) Can you tap that to replace the keyboard?

    7. jet-setting pen*

      My keyboard is like this. I figure out that it was caused my by nails. They’re natural and short, but a few tend to touch the key’s surface, especially on the lower row. As far as I can tell, my nails slowly scrape off the screen printing.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        It’s totally normal for this to eventually happen to all keyboards. The most used keys go first. It’s usually due to the oils in the skin on your fingers.

    8. Dancing Otter*

      Yes, even a cheap keyboard shouldn’t wear out this fast. Sounds as though whoever’s in charge of purchasing went a little too…thrifty.
      Let IT know as an FYI, so they know about the issue before they buy more of the same kind.
      That ought to result in a replacement without sounding needy or demanding.

    9. The teapots are on fire*

      This happened to my beloved Microsoft curved keyboard. I thought about getting another one and read the reviews and apparently it’s a thing for this model. I have a Logitech now.

  52. Angstrom*

    My first job was at a small startup — I think I was employee #12 — and overall it was a great place to work.
    The biggest downside was financial stability — there were cash flow problems, and early on sometimes we’d be asked if we could afford to have paychecks delayed a few days. Furnishings were plain. Every job had a lot riding on the outcome.
    On the positive side, the founder had a “treat people the way you’d want to be treated’ philosophy and the policies and benefits were excellent. One was encouraged to learn what others were doing and expand one’s skillset. There was total transparency — we all ate together and got to hear the business plan and company financal situation direct from the top every week. I wouldn’t say it felt like “family” — there were good boundaries between the personal and professional — but it did feel like a very good team.
    My next job was at a giant multinational, and while the stability and resources were nice the layers of beauracracy and lack of communication was frustrating.

  53. Chirpy*

    I can’t do this anymore. I came in on my day off because my department head is taking a long weekend every weekend this month, plus a week of vacation. I asked the manager for help because nobody had been there the day before and there was a lot of freight. He sent over 2 people to help, so I let them do freight and did picks instead, because there were also a ton.

    So my department head comes back, and out of nowhere in the middle of a discussion on how to train the new guy when neither of us will be there on the day we have live animals (so not something you can just let slide!), she started into me on not working on the freight and leaving it to others. I finally asked her why she always believes everyone except me, and she said it’s because multiple people are telling her these things.

    Multiple people are likely telling her because I have overheard a coworker who I’ll call Tool Boy (he is 60+, lazy, misogynistic, and will throw anyone under the bus if he thinks it will make him look better) trash talking me to at least half the store. And people believe him (because man? I’ve worked here longer than him.) Management knows he’s a problem, but won’t do anything. The store manager has called me “too emotional” when I’ve tried to say things in the past, so it’s pointless.

    Plus, I still can’t get into the doctor, because the insurance website tells me to use the apps, which are 1. an AI symptom checker that can *maybe* connect me to an appointment at the end, so what’s the point of that over, like, Web MD, or 2. a scheduling app with reviews that literally say “this is so useless I think they’re actually trying to save money by making everyone too frustrated to use it so we go off and die instead”. I just want to talk to a human who can tell me if it’s worth it to go to urgent care, or help me figure out what doctor to see. I don’t have a primary care doctor because I can’t figure out how to get one. And my symptoms are definitely getting worse.

    I’m so, so tired. Today I started crying less than an hour after getting to work because Tool Boy made yet another passive aggressive comment about me, and it’s been my only coworker interaction so far. And to be fair, it was something I could have done better. I just can’t force myself to care anymore, and job searching is so anxiety producing and I’m convinced no one will hire me or listen if I actually do get to see a doctor. But if I just break down everyone will also blame me for either “not trying hard enough” or “not asking for help sooner”. Everyone is just going to tell me I need to help myself.

    1. Chirpy*

      (to be clear, I am not suicidal. I am just completely floundering and apparently am too poor to “deserve” help, yet not poor enough to qualify for discounted help.)

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Wanted to drop a link to some resources: https://www.apa.org/topics/crisis-hotlines

      If the apps/webpages aren’t working for you, that’s ok. Just go to an urgent care for assistance. Most take walk ins, you can just show up. If they have too many people they may schedule you to come back later at the front desk. While you’re at urgent care you can tell them you’re having trouble getting a primary care doctor and do they have any advice or know any practices taking new patients? Doctors and nurses want to help people, you are not a burden. My urgent care has a whole wall of brochures about resources, that might be easier to navigate than trying the apps for you.

      2. Chirpy*

        The urgent care has limited hours, is the main thing.

        I also often get told I’m just fat and anxious, so none of my problems are real. (The fat is a symptom of the untreated anxiety combined with an old injury, plus possibly whatever is going on right now, not the cause, but again, the anxiety makes it hard to convey that. I’m about 40 lbs overweight.)

        1. Orchidnae*

          You need to go to urgent care. But you won’t. You are making excuses. You won’t use the app AI because it “might” not be able to get you an appointment – but it might! Have you actually tried? The scheduling app has poor reviews? Fine! Maybe it sucks. You can still try it and see. You don’t mention doing that.

          Get help. Do something. If it doesn’t work, do something else. But DO something.

      3. Chirpy*

        I guess the other thing with urgent care is, I tried going to what I *thought* was urgent care several years ago (for a different issue) and they billed it as emergency, so my insurance didn’t cover anything and it ate all my savings. I haven’t been able to save anything since, so that’s not an option again.

    3. WellRed*

      I’m unclear on what is stopping you from getting the list of physicians in network off the insurer website and then calling them directly. For the PCP, ask friends and family if they have a recommendation. Otherwise, again, pick up the phone and start dialing and ask if they are accepting new patients. If you have access to an urgent care, go to urgent care! That’s a very low bar. Do something (anything!) and report back next week if you want.

      1. Chirpy*

        The whole system is set up to make you use the apps, and I can’t make personal calls during the day at work (even on break on my cell phone, there’s nowhere private to go even if I had sufficient time to make that kind of phone call.) And I mostly work during regular office hours, so that makes it difficult. I tried to find a phone number for the hospital itself, to see if there’s a nurse hotline or something, but there wasn’t. It doesn’t seem productive to spend hours calling every individual doctor when I just need to figure out who can see me first.

        1. WellRed*

          Look, ultimately you need to help yourself, posting every week all the reasons why you (think) you can’t do anything isn’t going to magically make it all better. Urgent care is a low bar to cross. GO.

          1. Chirpy*

            Yes, I fully understand that this is *supposed* to be easy. It just *isn’t* easy for me. It’s very frustrating that I seem to be a complete failure at being an adult. (it took me 10 minutes to stop crying to write this.)

            1. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

              Nobody said it was easy. WellRed said that posting all the reasons why you can’t do anything isn’t going to fix things, and that is true.

              If you want things to change, you have to change things that you do. The worse things feel, the harder that will be, and the more you need to do something different.

              You can cry while you do it. That doesn’t mean you’re a failure, it just means you feel rotten right now, and your emotions are coloring your thoughts.

              You don’t have to call every individual doctor; just call one. If you can’t get an appointment with one, then call one more. Spending any amount of time calling any number of them is more productive than not calling any because you’re stalled figuring out which. You can do it at work on your break (I’d be very surprised if you don’t have at least 2 15-minute breaks during the 9hours of standard business hours), you don’t need complete privacy or a long time to ask, “Is Dr. Soandso accepting new patients? When is the next appointment open?”

              If you feel bad enough, go to urgent care; you can ask how the visit will be billed when you’re checking in.

              Find out if your area has any other resources you can use to stabilize your situation: Free/low-cost in-person therapy? Food banks you can use to reduce your grocery expenses and enable a tiny bit of savings? Job-searching or application support?

              Call, text, chat free a mental health support hotline.

              Just do one thing.

            2. WellRed*

              You are allowed to cry, Chirpy. But you still gotta take a step forward. Do one thing. We got you!

            3. Grace and Flavor*

              It’s not easy. Not for everyone. Lots of people struggle with this stuff. Lots of people cry while dealing with this stuff. They still have to do it.

              You can cry while you research doctors. You can be frustrated while you call them. You can be scared and sad at urgent care. You’ll be crying and frustrated and scared and sad anyway, but this way you’ll be getting help to deal with that too.

              Otherwise, this is just another means of avoidance that you are weaponising.

              1. GythaOgden*

                Also crying ultimately is the body’s way of expressing pain and anguish. After you stop, even if the problems are still there, it’s like one of those sunbeams that pushes through the clouds — it is part of the body’s process to deal with emotional pain and heal internally. The situation itself might still be there — I know that from experience — but, assuming you’re getting up and going into work even if it’s hard sometimes, you’re also showing resilience, which is something that employers above the cesspit into which you’ve fallen here will also value.

    4. Alex*

      Here is internet permission to go to urgent care asap. PLENTY of people go to urgent care even if it isn’t “urgent” if they don’t have a PCP. That is the nature of our F’d up health care system, and not your fault. You deserve care! Your symptoms are important and your health is important.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          You might also try a Minute Clinic – I know a lot of CVS stores have them, I think some Walgreens have an equivalent as well. They take appointments, I’ve been able to get into them fairly quickly, and they’re definitely not going to turn out to be a surprise ED visit.

        2. Maggie*

          Hey so I’m late to the game but I would highly recommend using ZocDoc to find providers in your area that take your insurance. I’ve used it quite a few times – 1 bad experience, several nuetral, and several good with the doctors I’ve found on there. Just a tip

    5. Feeling Feline*

      In all sincerity, if you have the choice at all , please consider leaving. I was in a similar situation in 2020, I’m still dealing with the psychiatric damage from there. Each individual event too small to worth the stress, added together it was horrendous. You are not obligated to rescue a sinking ship: chances are we cannot and it will just drag us with them.

      1. Chirpy*

        Oh, believe me, I want to leave SO BAD. I just can’t afford to leave until I have a new job, and it sucks. And the worst part is, this job was supposed to be a step out of the last mess.

        I just feel like I’m stuck in a loop of needing therapy so I can get a better job, but can’t afford therapy until I have a better job. I clearly need therapy.

    6. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      I’m sorry your dealing with all that. It sounds really stressful. And it sounds like you are really stressed –lots of spiraling in your comment.

      You didn’t ask for advice, so maybe you’re just venting here?

      But if you are open to advice, here is some I give my friends, coworkers, and loved ones (and myself) in a position like yours.
      A big part of stress in in a situation like this is feeling helpless at the mercy of things outside your control–that things are pointless, bad outcomes are inevitable, why try. So taking any action that empowers you can go a long way toward reducing the stress to give you energy and hope enough to take another step, and another, until you don’t feel helpless and overwhelmed with stress any more. Things may still be hard–but you can feel like you can do something about it, if you show yourself that you can do something about it. So, pick one small (very small) thing you can do to take care of yourself, and do the thing, without expecting it to be an instant fix. Success here is defined as: “I did the thing. I am capable of taking action against the difficulties that overwhelm me, I’m not helpless.” Pause and give yourself kudos for that. Then repeat.

      Here are some possible small things you can do. These are just suggestions–some may not apply, you don’t have to do all of them or do them in this order, and you shouldn’t try to do at once, that’s too much and can be wearying when you’re already stressed even if it’s successful. Pick the one that seems most do-able to start with, do one at a time, and congratulate yourself for each one.

      1. Phone your local urgent care and ask if you can describe your symptoms for a professional to advise you when or whether to come in, or whether you should do to a different kind of doctor (the urgent care centers in my area all do this). If they can answer that, now you know when to go to urgent care or what kind of doctor to look for. If they say they can’t answer that on the phone, you still successfully called to find out. You can try again with a different “brand” urgent care company –sometimes they have different policies, so one may give advice even though another wouldn’t. (a) If/when your symptoms meet the criteria identified by the urgent care professional, go to urgent care. Or if none of them would give you guidance over the phone, I am a human who will tell you it’s worth it to go to urgent care when: your symptoms become severe enough to impair your functioning, or continue to worsen for more than 7 days without being relieved by rest or home care/self-treatment.

      2. Look up mental health support resources in your area, that you can access if your stress symptoms become severe or impairing, or continue to worsen for more than 7 days without being relieved by rest, self-help, or informal support from friends/family/sympathetic people on the internet. (a) Consider contacting one or more of those resources at a time when you’re not feeling in crisis, just for practice, to de-stigmatize it to yourself. You don’t need to be in crisis or suicidal to benefit from a supportive listener, who is actually trained. (b) Decide for yourself, or ask the professional you contact if they can give guidance on when you should seek mental-health urgent care. (For some people, crying at work, feeling incredibly tired emotionally, or convinced everyone will blame you and no one will listen or value you, would be concerning symptoms that their mental health was not okay; for other people some of those might be unremarkable or part of a condition that is otherwise well-managed).
      If you’re in the USA, National Institute of Mental health gives non-emergency support by phone, 800-950-6264, text “helpline” to 62640, or chat online at http://www.nami.org, or in crisis, call or text 988, and many states and cities have additional local resources, even if your work doesn’t offer EAP or you aren’t comfortable using a service connected to work.

      3. Do one step toward finding a primary care doctor. (a) Make a list of primary care docs with offices near you, that you could get to, and their phone numbers–at least 5, no more than 10 offices or 20 doctors. (b) Either phone and ask, or look at their website, whichever is easier for you, to find out (b.1) are they accepting new patients? (b2.) Do they take your insurance? Note answers on your list. (c) Pick one who is accepting new patients and takes your insurance. Phone to request an a new patient intake appointment within the next 6weeks. If they do not have an opening in the next 6 weeks, say you’ll need to call them back, and try a different one. Repeat until you’ve got an appointment in the next 6 weeks. (d)Attend the appointment. Explain that you need a primary care doctor in general, but you also have physical symptoms that may need a referral to a specialist, and ask if they can do that. If you don’t feel heard and respected, or they say they can’t address your symptoms or refer you to someone who will, don’t make a follow-up appointment with that doctor, try again with the next one on your list.

      Come back next week and tell us how you’re doing. I’m rooting for you.

    7. nnn*

      I say this with compassion but this situation, while awful, is beyond the point of what the commenters on this site can help with.

    8. Maybesocks*

      I’m sending you some healing vibes through the ether to you. Imagine one of us keeping you company while you go to urgent care.

    9. Brevity*

      Oh, honey. I am so, so sorry. Mean people really suck.

      Do you have any sick time at all that you can take? Does your company have an HR you can go to, not to complain, but just to find out about resources, from a real human being?

      I know that your savings are drained from a previous emergency, but I’m thinking you should go to a hospital emergency room, explain that you have no money or insurance when they check you in, and see if there is someone that help sign you up for Medicaid or something else. If you have an anxiety condition, maybe it qualifies you for Social Security disability?

      It may also be worth it to call a suicide hotline, again, for whatever resources they can provide.

      Tool Guy can suck it. His life is probably already hell, which is why he’s so nasty. You at least are a person, so take pride in that.

    10. RagingADHD*

      If you’re trying to access the website on your phone and it keeps shunting you to the app, try turning on “desktop mode” in your browser options.

      Somewhere, maybe on the site and maybe on your insurance card, there is a phone number. When the automatic system picks up, just keep saying “representative.” It may take a while, but it nearly always gets you to a human eventually.

    11. Nancy*

      You don’t need permission to go to urgent care, you can just go. That’s why they exist. Or just call urgent care directly.

      Call PCP offices directly, tell them your
      insurance, and ask for a new patient appointment. You don’t need privacy for that, everyone needs a PCP and everyone has also done this. Try early in the morning because many offices have staff in before 9. Or try the Zoc Doc website.

    12. Any Name At All*

      I can’t do this anymore.

      So what will you do? If you do nothing to take any action in your life, then you will be stuck in the same place. Coming to vent to Internet strangers each week will not change your situation.

      You need to take some steps to change your life. Venting temporarily helps to release some steam, but it is not a permanent solution. You’ve posted weekly about your situation and dismissed all advice given. How will you know that it won’t work if you don’t try?

      Doing the work to change your life won’t be easy because it never is. But taking a first step, no matter how small it is, is better than doing nothing at all.

    13. Any Name At All*

      Quote didn’t work in my first reply. Trying again.

      “I can’t do this anymore.”

      So what will you do? If you do nothing to take any action in your life, then you will be stuck in the same place. Coming to vent to Internet strangers each week will not change your situation.

      You need to take some steps to change your life. Venting temporarily helps to release some steam, but it is not a permanent solution. You’ve posted weekly about your situation and dismissed all advice given. How will you know that it won’t work if you don’t try?

      Doing the work to change your life won’t be easy because it never is. But taking a first step, no matter how small it is, is better than doing nothing at all.

      1. GythaOgden*

        I’ve said that to myself sooooo many times before, even since I got promoted last year. I had that nasty COVID/Flirt bug back in June and it’s literally /today/ I no longer feel like I’m going to drown in my own bodily fluids. A year ago I felt exactly like this and was contemplating the ‘last’ roll of the dice. Even when it came up double-sixes, it took me a week for the verbal offer to become /real/ and another week for my body to recover from the shock of actually landing the job and discussing a start date and which contract version I wanted to be on. (UK government is the Platonic Ideal of bureaucratic nonsense when it comes to terms and conditions.)

        Even if you say it every day, the fact is, Chirpy, you’re evidently still resilient enough to keep going in to work if only because you can’t afford not to. That, at its most basic, is the important thing — keeping going that one last step towards something, whether it’s recovery from an illness or getting a new job.

        1. Any Name At All*

          I believe you meant this reply for Chirpy, not me. It doesn’t look like she’s replying to anyone else.

          Using a blog instead of a message board for comments can be hard to use at times. I had an issue with the quote function not working when I replied to Chirpy yesterday.

    14. GythaOgden*

      Honestly the only thing I can say right now Chirpy is that you have my deepest and most sincere sympathy, empathy, and hugs. I know EXACTLY what’s happening because I’ve been there and the thought processes are just so corrosive, and despite being somewhat forceful in what I’ve said in the past, I really am frustrated that I /can’t/ just wave a magic wand and get you a better job. I can send you love and good vibes and hopefully they don’t get lost in the Atlantic. It was for me just about this time last year I was in the ‘always darkest before the dawn’ period and a month later I had at least the offer of a new job. But thinking back, all my hope had run out and I was contemplating whether or not to just hand my notice in and go back to temping. I was too reliant on someone else coming through with a promise they’d made much earlier in the summer and I was /really/ surprised when they pulled their finger out and got the business case for my current job put together. It was just getting toxic enough (not necessarily the job when I got there or the people around me, just the organisational inertia that couldn’t get me more experience without going through the whole interview and promotion process, and the horrid commute that was no longer really worth it) that had that fallen through, I’d have been out of there, probably on a leave of absence of some kind.

      Hang on in there. You /will/ get through this and out the other side. One step at a time and don’t write yourself or others off.

      1. GythaOgden*

        https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/mental-health-services-how-get-treatment-if-you-can-t-ncna875176

        I was browsing another AAM article and a link or two onwards brought me here. I believe in benign coincidence and this might help you cut through all the struggles.

        It’s from quite a while ago (pre-pandemic) and I’m not in the US so I can’t speak to any of the services here from personal experience, but I hope that it can give you some pointers. Don’t put it off — if you want to find another job, you need to be in the right headspace, and it doesn’t sound like you are right now, so that’s the first step on the way.

  54. Singularity*

    I’ve been an overnight grocery stocker for a decade now, and I am super burnt out and severely depressed. Like, crying almost daily depressed. (I’m in therapy, but it’s obvious the job is a big part of why I’m depressed. I have an accommodation for reduced hours, which helps a lot.) I desperately want to quit before yet another holiday season, but I’m not sure where to go. I really don’t want to do more physical work or something that keeps me on my feet, so I’m looking at some kind of office job. The problem is most of those jobs require skills with Excel and Quickbooks or other programs. I’ve had spurts of trying to learn them on my own, but haven’t stuck with it. I haven’t been diagnosed, but I have a lot of the symptoms of ADHD/autism and maintaining effort towards a goal with no immediate consequences for failing is very difficult. I decided to reapply to my local community college for the structure and accountability.

    It kind of went sideways. I did most of the registration online or over the phone because going anywhere in person is a big hassle when you work nights. I enrolled in a course called Intro to Accounting: Spreadsheet Applications. I thought it was for Excel. Turns out it was for Quickbooks, and the instructor said I needed Principles of Accounting 1 as a prerequisite (which was not listed on the official registration page). Apparently the class that covers Excel is called Microcomputer Applications and by the time I figured all this out, the course was full. (There is a mini term for it, but it won’t start until the holiday season is in full swing and I’m not sure I’ll be able to handle it on top of work.) She suggested I go ahead and take the Accounting 1 class.

    I went along with this because I recently took an aptitude test and accounting was at the top of the list. I’m an artsy person who is very bad at math, so I never even considered going into accounting. But I did some more research and it sounds like it doesn’t take that much in the way of math, so that made me reconsider. However, they also said it could be very boring and the classes were a lot harder than the actual work. Still, I thought I could just try the one class and see how I like it.

    The problem I’m realizing very late is I’m not really getting what I set out for here. I want to learn Excel and Quickbooks and get a new job within a few months. I’m not even trying to become a captial-A Accountant; I’m just looking for any desk job that will get me out of retail (and hopefully pay more than $12 per hour). And even if I go through all this, it won’t get me out of my current job before the holidays.

    Classes start this coming Monday. I feel it’s a waste of my energy and Pell grant to take a class I don’t really need right now just to see if I like it. And if I hate it, then not only is it a waste of money, it’s going to negatively affect my mental health, which I cannot afford. Either way, it competes with the time and energy I could theoretically spend on learning Excel and Quickbooks. On the other hand, I’m concerned the instructor is right that the programs I want to learn won’t be useful unless I understand the basics of accounting.

    Also, I’m sad and frustrated that I went to all this effort, I’m all ready to go, and I was actually feeling excited and hopeful for the first time in a long time… and now I think I should withdraw. I’m not sure how I can get myself to learn Excel and Quickbooks without some external pressure. I’ve tried accountability buddies and they don’t work because I know they can’t do anything to me. But I really cared about my GPA when I was in college before and did the work even though it was a struggle. (For the record, I just took some general studies classes because I had no clue what I wanted to major in.)

    If I didn’t have to worry about a job at the moment and was going back to college for a career, I’m still not sure what I’d pick, but I like the idea of going into some kind of civil service or enforcement role for environmental safety or jobsite safety (OSHA?). I really like the idea of being involved with genetic engineering for livestock and crops, but I’d rather not work in a lab, and I’ve read bad things about what scientists have to put up with to get paid. Product label design or packaging design sound cool, as does infographic design, but with generative AI, I’m worried about the viability of any artsy careers.

    The comments here have been pretty helpful for me in the past. I would love any advice or insights you’d be willing to offer. Thanks!

    1. WellRed*

      My first reaction is to say, congratulations. You’ve managed to talk yourself out of everything. Part of taking intro classes is to explore possible fits. Are you registered for the accounting class? Go to the first class. Or see if you can add the excel class (I assume colleges still do this). Second insight: You are all over the place. Accounting? Genetic engineering? Civil service? Design? Have you got access to a student advisor at the school? Third thought; any chance you have a good adult education program in your area? They have tons of excel and other programs and certificates.

    2. Alex*

      I would honestly skip out on the classes for now.

      Here’s why: Jobs that want you to know a certain program, etc., want you to show that you have used them at work. I know, it sucks–but going out and taking a class in Excel isn’t going to help you much with that “must know Excel” requirement in the job description.

      I would try applying to some office jobs that don’t have that requirement. Are there any universities near you? These are sometimes great places to start at the bottom with office assistant type jobs, and in my experience, have fewer requirements than some other kinds of employers. You may have to apply to *a lot* of jobs before you get bites, but with limited energy, that is where I would focus it.

      Also, when applying, don’t be afraid to apply even if you don’t technically meet all “requirements” especially if they are phrased as “desired”. If something says “Must have high level of Excel” obviously don’t apply for it, but if that is just one thing out of many skills listed…go ahead and apply.

      Is the grocery store you work for a large corporation? Do they have any offices near you? That is another place to look, since you have a history with the company already. Your next job won’t be your forever job and may not even be related to a “career” you envision yourself having, but something that is a bit broader than stocking grocery shelves, where you can get some skills onto your resume, will help you move forward.

      Plenty of people don’t have a straight school -> career in field studied path. I certainly didn’t! I think it is way more common to just do the best as you can at the time and try to make incremental changes.

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        “Jobs that want you to know a certain program, etc., want you to show that you have used them at work.”

        Eh, seems manageable.

        Singularity, even working as a grocery stocker, there is an opportunity to gain on-the-job experience with Excel! (It seems unlikely, I know, but the “overnight” part probably helps with this.) Keep an eye on deal sites for a cheap tablet. You just need something that can run Excel, and a quick Play Store search tells me that Microsoft is offering their app even on non-Windows tablets or phones. (You want a tablet, though, because if your boss notices you using a personal phone for work stuff, they may confiscate it or demand that you wipe it.) When stocking, keep track of what’s needed where – in Excel! If your boss asks why you’re on the tablet when you should be working, show him what you’re doing with it and maybe talk about how it’s helping you focus/concentrate better.

        For the classes, you may be able to unenroll within the first week or two if you realize it isn’t for you. Check with the registrar to find out.

        1. Plate of Wings*

          This is a very, very good idea. If OP’s goal is to get into an office job quickly, I’m in total agreement that a little bit of on the job experience with these tools will give OP a bigger advantage than even several classes. It’s unfair and judgemental and based on optics, but it’s realistic.

          Maybe the structure of a work related goal will help with feeling overwhelmed by self-instruction?

          All that said, OP will need to be really deliberate about selling this experience confidently when applying for jobs. Present it matter-of-factly and just another part of what your job turned into. (I’m big on honesty and I would want to incorporate this into my work so I would be promoting true experience. I’m great at selling myself but it absolutely has to be true.)

          If OP is on a timeline, they’re right about these jobs wanting prior work experience, and I think it’s worth serious consideration.

          OP will benefit from really thoughtfully marketing themselves either way, so if they can swing it I think they should consider this approach.

          1. GythaOgden*

            It would also help to be able to point to areas where OP has gone above and beyond for their employer and/or used their initiative to solve problems or collaborate with extra duties.

            I was in a similar position about a year ago — dead end job with no discernable direct way of getting experience beyond reception because of a very stratified governmental organisational structure. The leg up that I got when I interviewed pretty much required me to identify situations where I’d learned things quickly, taken on extra responsibility or taken over jobs that needed done when short-handed etc (like having to run an entire building singlehanded for a few days during flu season which had knocked out both my colleagues; I only had to be there half an hour early but it felt like much longer; I got paid both in monetary terms — time and a half for that extra 30 minutes — but also in kudos at being happy to step in when they were in a pinch).

            It wasn’t necessarily enough to plod on with what you just do day to day — it’s being enough of a team player to seize opportunity when it presents itself and build on what you’ve achieved, even if the job itself is routine.

            Most importantly, you’ve got to show engagement with the process as it is and not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Like, yeah, in an ideal world retail wouldn’t be such a crummy field to work in, but someone who takes pride in your work regardless of the hardship is the person that gets noticed.

            Seriously: I work in property management with a big divide between clerical and adminstrative colleagues and the frontline delivery teams (maintenance, cleaning, catering, reception etc). We’ve done a LOT to bridge that gap, but ultimately it comes from the person themselves as to whether they are content with their lot or whether they want to move up. We’ve identified potential team leads, managers etc sometimes purely by the fact that they take negative feedback on the chin, work out what to do next etc etc without running away and hiding for a few days. We’ve also invited people who’ve expressed interest in professional development to meetings so they can get a taste of what goes on at management level. We have a really diverse team — both in terms of identity and background but also personality and similar less noticeable differences — because we strive to promote from the frontline pool and give people a chance that they might not get elsewhere. In our case, it’s because we’re part of national government, so if we don’t do it, no-one else will :(.

            So whether or not taking the Excel course will help you even if you don’t get to use it as part of your job, it shows you’re willing to do something outside of work to get ahead. That’s the big difference between people who are happy where they are and people who want to get promoted.

            My mother climbed the ladder in education to the top by looking to pick up other work that needed done so she was the first in line when they realised they could find extra money in the budget to pay for that role.

            While it’s easy to be cynical about whether an existing place will indeed pay extra for that extra work (mine actually /couldn’t/, since UK government pay scales make the Ten Commandments look like they were carved on a bar of soap; they’re set centrally and subject to the whims and tangents of the Prime Minister and his best bud the Chancellor), my mum had the will to prove herself capable, along with a career pattern as a trailing spouse to my engineer father, meaning that she had to move places every few years and could use that move to turn the straw of what she’d been doing as a volunteer into the gold of extra pay at another school for that experience.

            It’s not necessarily butt-kissing that will get you the job — but it is generally the people who stick their necks above the parapet and ask ‘what do you need done next?’ that are better prepared for promotion.

            Also, if you can find a branch in your area and would be willing to move sideways for a bit, German supermarket Lidl always promotes from within and asks their management to do retail shifts every so often to keep in touch with the shopfloor — at least they do in the UK. They take pride in their professional development programmes; it may mean another few years at the coalface in retail but you would have better prospects in general to move up and take your retail experience with you.

            Seriously, OP: good luck. From one autistic person to another — you’re definitely playing the game of life on hard mode. But I persevered for two years after I knew my previous job was no longer sustainable. It’s tough and you have to persist, but keeping on knocking on the door is the way you get through it.

            Keep us posted.

      2. BikeWalkBarb*

        I don’t know about this “apply anyway even if you don’t know it” advice. Finding and applying for jobs is time-consuming, and you want to invest your energy into things that are actually going to move you forward. We just recently saw a letter from someone saying their new hire had claimed to have experience using things like PowerPoint and absolutely didn’t have it. That person who lied about their abilities didn’t stay in that job any amount of time.

        There’s some good advice in other comments about ways to get Excel practice and I’d do those rather than claim knowledge you don’t have.

        Your life sounds really really full but I also wonder if you could find a one day a week volunteer opportunity with a nonprofit that needs help with putting data into spreadsheets. Be honest that you don’t know how to do it but you want to learn. I used to work in nonprofits and I know they may not always have the bandwidth for this kind of volunteer but you never know. If it’s in some area you have a lot of interest in, then maybe it leads to something more in the future. At least you’d be getting connections in some world other than what you’re doing now, and that’s a start.

        As for the idea that being in accounting doesn’t involve doing a lot of math, sure, there are spreadsheets for that which is why you use things like Excel and QuickBooks. But accounting absolutely does involve forms of thinking from mathematical logic and the use of numbers. Understanding why a balance sheet needs to balance and looking at one to figure out why it doesn’t balance is pretty clearly grounded in math! I say this having worked as a full charge bookkeeper after taking a year of accounting in college. My bachelor’s degree in English didn’t really come into play in that job.

        Hyaline’s comment about your wide-ranging list of things that interest you is right on point. You really can’t pursue all those at the same time and some of them require a great deal more education. If you want an office job, focus on acquiring basic office skills. Don’t worry about which industry you’re going to use them in yet. It’s overwhelming to try to map it all out at once. Good luck!

        1. Cj*

          yes to this. you need to have at least a principles of accounting background in order to learn how to use QuickBooks properly.

          I know a lot of business owners (or spouses of business owners) use QuickBooks without an accounting background, but then their accounting firm spends a lot of time straightening out their books because the accounting part isn’t done right. if you’re actually looking for a job in which you would use quickbooks, not just for use in your own unrelated business, you definitely have to have at least somewhat of an accounting background first.

    3. I strive to Excel*

      Couple of suggestions!

      First, accounting is a pretty broad range of jobs. Maybe full CPA, capital A accounting isn’t for you. But how about bookkeeping? There’s a number of AP/AR clerk and other bookkeeping positions that really don’t want or need a CPA in the role, just someone with decent organizational and detail skills. Maybe try that intro to accounting course and see if it clicks. It’s not what you came in initially wanting to do, but a lot of desk jobs use enough “accounting 101” that you might find it useful, and Quickbooks will certainly make more sense to you.

      Second, Excel & Quickbooks. Quickbooks is a little harder to learn solo, because it’s a bit more expensive. But Excel is another matter. There’s dozens of available courses online. I recommend picking a basic one on Youtube. No more than 2-3 hours, enough to learn the terminology. Then pick a project you’d like to get work on! Some options:
      * Budget spreadsheet
      * March Madness auto-filling bracket maker (pick sport of choice, if this interests!)
      * Spreadsheet to help track job applications
      * Spreadsheet to help you optimize a game (especially if you play something like Stardew Valley)
      * Project tracker for crafts
      * For a stretch goal: break out the VBA code and figure out how to do Yahtzee or 2024 in Excel (I know these are possible because I did them at one point).

      Often having a project to work on can get past the initial “I don’t want to do this” with Excel/QB.

      In the meantime, your goal is to get out of this job and into a new one. How about splitting that into two parts? While you’re working on finding an office job, is there any other physical job that would be palatable in the meantime? Maybe something that doesn’t involve retail during the hardest time of the year?

    4. Hyaline*

      First–if you feel like you could stick with the accounting course…it’s one semester. It’s a four-month chunk of life. It’s…less of a big deal than you’re allowing it to morph into. If you end up hating it, well…there is a value to sticking with things you dislike to prove to yourself you can in fact do them and put them in the rearview. You would also learn a ton about your readiness as a student, what student-ing skills you may need to develop, and how to balance school with work. There’s also the option to drop the course (which I would encourage you to look into via your college’s registrar/academic calendar website, as often you can get partial or complete tuition reimbursement depending on when you drop).

      But if you really don’t want to do the degree-focused community college work, you may find courses in specific computer skills elsewhere. Libraries, community centers, career development centers…it might fit the bill for structure and accountability (and “paying for a course, so you’d better actually do it” feelings). But that’s only if you feel that these particular skills are the ones holding you back from what you want to do. I’m not sure that’s 100% the case?

      Big picture…I realize I’m only seeing this one letter, so there may be a lot I’m not seeing in how you’re approaching this….it really feels like you’re thrashing around in the dark hoping to hit on something instead of slowly and steadily thinking, researching your options, and developing a plan. I’m not trying to be mean here, but the list of possible careers at the end of your post feels like spaghetti thrown against the wall. Which is ok! It’s brainstorming! But you can’t jump from that to an actionable plan. Sit with those ideas. Research them. Visit career fairs. Look up job postings to learn more about entry-level jobs in the fields you’re interested in. Talk to people–lots of people, if you can–about their work and what they do and how they got there. If you can, talk to advisors at the college–but go in with some specific questions, not vague desires to do “something else.” You may discover that most fields you’re interested in really do require a degree, and then hey! That intro to accounting class is a credit earned toward a bigger goal!

    5. Noquestionsplease*

      Lots of libraries offer classes like introduction to word/excel/powerpoint for free. Go to your library or look on their website to see. There are also tons of YouTube videos that teach you the basics so you can do it on your own schedule.

    6. Rex Libris*

      Find a local library that has either Universal Class or Gale Courses. These will normally be listed on the library website, often under a link that says “resources” or “databases” or “continuing education” or something like that. Get a card there.

      Both of these resources are normally free, and have a variety of classes on Excel, basic accounting, and related topics that can help you get started with very low buy in. If you need consequences, simply visualize continuing to stock grocery store shelves ten years from now.

  55. Tradd*

    A different take on the WFH/in-office thing:

    I have several friends who’ve told me their laid off kids from about age 25-35 are refusing any and all jobs that aren’t WFH. The kids had to give up their apartments and move back in with their parents as they’ve been out of work for at least 6 months and ran out of money. They’re in finance, accounting, IT. Absolutely, positively cannot find a WFH job. Absolutely refuse anything in office, even with short commutes and good salaries. Friends tell me this is not uncommon amongst their wider circle. There comes a time when you have to just suck it up and take something. The parents’ consensus is that the kids are being much too picky. If they didn’t have mom and dad to take them in, they likely wouldn’t be so picky.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think that’s a wild take. I fully support “I won’t take anything unless it’s fully remote,” as long as you can actually find a job. That said, it’s up to their parents to enforce. If the parents say “Yeah, you can stay with us until you find something,” and the kids are okay staying at home as adults, there isn’t really a deadline to find a job.

    2. Alex*

      I think that last sentence is key. “If they didn’t have a mom and dad to take them in, they likely wouldn’t be so picky.”

      By definition, this dataset of people DO have a mom and dad to take them in, and with whom they are willing to live. The ones who don’t have a mom and dad able/willing to do this, well, they are out working.

      If mom and dad don’t want to support their picky children anymore, they will need to enforce some boundaries and the kids will need to deal with that.

      1. Tradd*

        Yes, I’m told that is in the works (discussions about boundaries). Kids aren’t even working part time or trying to bring in any cash. The moms told me they’re not just providing shelter and food, but covering the kids’ car payments/insurance, cell phone bills, new clothes, running around money. Kids spend a few hours a day on job search and then just goof off.

        1. EMP*

          In all kindness, that’s their problem. If they want to set boundaries with their kids, it’s on them to do that. If you want to stop hearing about it, tell them you sympathize but let’s talk about XYZ instead. I feel like you’re looking for a moral judgment on the situation but it frankly doesn’t matter.

        2. Kesnit*

          The kids are spending several hours a day job hunting and the parents think that is too little?

          It’s been many years since I did Internet-based job searches, but they don’t take a long time. Once someone has a resume and cover letter, it can be a matter of minutes to update them for a specific application. (Less if they have multiple resumes based on different types of jobs.) There are a lot of job sites, but they only update occasionally and often all have the same postings. After a few days, you’ve seen all the postings (probably multiple times).
          Even retail/fast food want online applications now.

          What are the parents expecting the kids to do?

          1. Kesnit*

            To add: I understand that parents think the kids are being too picky. But there are a lot of issues that go into job hunting. Cost of commuting. Clothes for work. In a high COL area, expenses can add up fast.

            How would the parents feel if the kid got a part-time retail job, but still lived at home?

            1. Tradd*

              If the kids were working part-time, things would be different. They’re not even trying to get something part-time. Parents are footing ALL their expenses. IMO, the kids ARE being too picky.

              1. Mad Harry Crewe*

                It’s still not your problem. If the parents want something different in this relationship with their kids, the parents need to talk to the kids about it. Bitching to you isn’t going to change the situation at all.

                Captain Awkward likes to summarize this kind of letter as “Who is right and why is it me?”

                You think the kids are being too picky. I think your friends should open their mouths and say words out loud to their kids if this arrangement isn’t working for them anymore, and then hold their boundaries even if it makes them uncomfortable. Neither of those opinions belong to the people actually involved in this conflict, so neither of those opinions are particularly relevant.

                Boundaries aren’t about changing other people’s minds, boundaries are about what YOU do. “Sweetie, I’ve been paying your phone bill for 6 months. Starting in October, it is not in my budget to cover your phone bill anymore, so you should plan to move your number to a separate plan” AND THEN ACTING ON THAT is a boundary. Do they move their number to a cheap plan? Do they get a part time job so they can keep a fancy plan? Do they not do anything and no longer have a cell phone? Not Mom’s problem, actually.

              2. Demure and mindful*

                OK. You’re right. They’re being too picky.

                Who cares? If their parents have issues with it, they can set boundaries. It’s nothing to do with anyone else.

          2. I strive to Excel*

            Sounds like what the kids want is jobs that are either not there or are in very short supply (exclusively WFH jobs), and the parents would like them to be a bit less picky about accepting a job with some commute time involved.

        3. Rex Libris*

          Frankly, if I had someone paying all my bills and giving me spending money, I’d be inclined to hold out for a magical unicorn job that probably will never happen too.

          I mean, if I was living equally well whether I work or whether I don’t work, I wouldn’t exactly be incentivized to work.

        4. Irish Teacher.*

          Yeah, that’s a problem with the parents more than the kids. Providing shelter and food, sure, maybe cell phone bills/cars as those can be necessary for safety and job searching, but new clothes and “fun” money? For people in their late 20s or beyond who aren’t in full time education? Yeah, that strikes me as a bad decision on their parents’ part.

          Is it possible these young people are trying to avoid getting jobs because they know their parents will give them everything? And that they are using work from home as a criteria knowing it’s one they won’t get?

          Or like I said above, another possibility is that the parents just don’t have a clue how their kids’ industries work.

    3. Morgan Proctor*

      I mean, yeah, at this point I’m not doing in-office ever again. Nothing about it works for me or my life. I have a WFH job right now, and if I were laid off tomorrow, I’d go back to freelancing. I’ll take the uncertainty and stress of the freelance life over the pointless slog of in-office work any day.

      Sorry that the younger generation’s priorities are different than yours! It’s not a referendum on you as a person, I promise.

      1. Det. Amy Santiago*

        Same!! I’ll go in to the office once a month, max. But I prefer WFH and my last two jobs have fit the bill!

    4. I strive to Excel*

      There’s a similar scenario I read in the book Boundaries, about a very similar scenario where a kid was failing to lead the house. To paraphrase: the parents came to McCloud (the author) and said “our kid has problems! He has no job, no apartment, no SO, no motivation to do anything but play video games”. McCloud says “no, actually, he doesn’t have any problems. He gets food, shelter, and entertainment for free. Would you like me to help you make him have problems?”

      If your friends don’t want their kids to be picky, they need to not subsidize the pickiness.

    5. RagingADHD*

      How is this a different take?

      Parents have been complaining about their grown kids “failing to launch” since the 1980s, and increasingly so in the last 25 years. The specific parameter of wanting a WFH job is just a surface detail.

      I suspect it has less to do with WFH or “goofing off” and more to do with the epidemic levels of depression and anxiety running rampant in Gen Z right now. Have your friends encouraged their kids to get treatment, or are they just sitting around badmouthing them to you? Because I guarantee that isn’t helping their kids feel motivated and optimistic about the future.

    6. Irish Teacher.*

      I’m guessing the “kids” have a better understanding of their industries than the parents, so the odds are they aren’t being “picky.” The parents are misunderstanding something. One person who is willing to stay unemployed and in a bad situation rather than work in an office…sure, possible. Multiple…no, that’s not credible.

      I wouldn’t pay any attention to the parents’ consensus. I suspect they are misreading the situation somewhere along the line. The idea that all the kids are out of touch with their own industries and older people who presumably mostly don’t work in those industries are correct sounds unlikely to me. I’d take the kids’ consensus over the parents’.

  56. AnonyB*

    Hi All,
    I’m hoping people in this group can give me some advice. I’m trying to move back to my home state (Michigan) after working out of state for most of my professional life. I know out of state job searches can be especially challenging, so I’m curious how others have done it. I’ve been trying for remote jobs, have applied to some in person jobs, and am even considering going to graduate school in my home state to help strengthen my candidacy overall and build a network in that state. What do you all think?

    2. Rainy*

      Don’t go to grad school unless you can get it fully funded *and* the credential is absolutely necessary for your field. Grad school qua grad school doesn’t build a network. You still have to do that through individual effort, which you can do without going to grad school.

      I’m packing up now to start a job in a new state. It took about 2 years of applying in only the area I want to be in for only jobs that fit all my criteria. Yes, it was definitely tougher as an out of state candidate, and I ended up settling for something a little ways away from where I’d really prefer to be, but the next search will be a lot easier because I’ll be in the same state and be able to start developing a network there through professional organizations etc. I’ve done this before, and previous times it was either a lot closer and I was up there fairly often so I could do some job hunting from the area (that was a long time ago and those jobs were easier to come by), or I started my search at a distance and then moved and continued once I was there.

    3. DrSalty*

      Don’t go to grad school unless you have a very clear, concrete plan for what you will do afterward AND it’s fully funded.

    4. EMP*

      I think you’re overthinking it! “Moving home to be closer to family” is the only reason you need if an interviewer asks. Act like it’s already decided you’re moving. In my experience the interviewers just want to make sure it’s worth their time and you’re committed to moving if you get the job. If you have a Michigan address you could use (like a family member’s house) you could even use that on your resume and pretend you’re in state already (assuming there’s not like a state license for your field that you’d need to get).

  57. Sweatpants that look like Dress pants??*

    Ever since we returned to the office after Covid, I just hate wearing the dress pants I used to always wear. They were always uncomfortable, but after wearing sweatpants for two years, I just find them unbearable.

    I thought post-Covid, there would surely be companies leaning into the desire for comfortable and stylish dress pants, but have had a hard time finding them. Anyone have recommendations for good-quality pants that look business professional on the outside, but feel like soft sweatpants on the inside? And that are also stylish like skinny/bootcut/flare- not loose and baggy like sweats/pjs, aren’t see-through/super thin or looking like workout clothes?

    1. MsM*

      I don’t know about undercover sweatpants specifically, but I have some pairs from eShakti that are particularly comfy and good quality. Plus, you can get them to your exact measurements and/or customize length.

      1. curly sue*

        Watch out with EShakti – I’ve been hearing that they’ve closed down (but are still accepting orders and taking money). There have been a lot of people left hanging with unfulfilled orders. It’s a shame, because I love the dresses I’ve gotten from them in the past.

        1. Rainy*

          Yeah, I have two dresses hanging out since March and they’ve been promising fulfillment since then. This reminds me I need to cancel and try to get my money back.

    2. YNWA*

      Check out Halara. I’ve heard really good things about their pants and they have several styles that look like regular pants but they’re really more legging-like in feel.

    3. Rainy*

      I’ve really liked Betabrand’s DPYP and Journey trousers. They look professional but are super comfy and come in straight, boot-cut, and skinny fits. I also *really* like JCrew’s Kallie and Ruby dress trousers for something that’s a little more polished.

    4. Feeling Feline*

      Sorry for being that person, is it ok to not use terms like “post covid”? I’m hoping we will be post covid one day. We are not there yet. Sorry for the slight side track. Good luck with the trouser hunt! <3

    5. Elle Woods*

      Athleta makes a couple of different styles (Brooklyn, Endless) that I really like. Both styles come in multiple rises and cuts too.

    6. Maestra*

      I’ve had luck searching for “pull on pants” which does sound like they are for babies or something, but they just have elastic waists and no zippers/buttons. There are lots of different brands that make things like that – Old Navy, Banana Republic, etc.

      1. A Significant Tree*

        BR Factory occasionally makes soft work pants, so it’s worth checking there occasionally. I bought three pairs of one style that is basically jersey knit with a foldover/stretchy waist, they’re somewhat wide leg and as comfy as pajamas but read like work pants with the right top. They also had a more fitted style in houndstooth with soft material that zipped up the side.

        I have two pairs of Athleta work pants (watch for sales!), one linen-blend and one in a more lightweight tech fabric and both are office-appropriate and really comfortable.

    9. Six Feldspar*

      I love the uniqlo ankle pants! Cotton/linen blend in summer and viscose/polyester in winter. They’re comfortable (I could cycle in them with no issues, not even worrying about stuff falling out of the pockets) and stylish enough for my office at least.

    10. Hyaline*

      Quince has stretch/ponte dress pants that aren’t quite as comfy as sweatpants but are still better than dress pants, proper.

    1. Rainy*

      There’s a link at the bottom of that letter to the update. It’s not lengthy or detailed but it sounds like the LW is doing a lot better.

  59. What da?*

    I want to move out of my parents’ to take up a new job in another city but the cost of housing there is just insane. The average property costs $900,000 (the job pays less than $40,000). If housing is considered unaffordable if costs more than three or four times a person’s annual income then shouldn’t the average wage in this area be between $225,000 and $300,000? What am I missing?

    2. WellRed*

      I assume the rental market is also awful? If not, that’s where you should be looking. Housing (home buying) right now is out of reach in many areas for a variety of reasons.

      1. What da?*

        Renting is awful too. I lived with roommates in college and don’t want to replicate the experience, but I’m single and have no idea how one person could possibly afford to rent somewhere decent while saving up enough to buy a house one day.

        1. mreasy*

          Unfortunately adults in expensive cities have roommates to make it work as a rule. I didn’t get my own apartment until I was 30, and even that was a stretch. I am 44 and my husband and I know we will never be able to buy. Entry level salaries just don’t enable solo apartment living in a hot real estate market.

          1. What da?*

            I guess my biggest problem is that I’m already as old as you were when you moved into your own place so I’m ready to live by myself but haven’t yet gone through the years of sharing that most people have to go through before getting to that point. I’m so cooked.

      2. Rainy*

        Usually in places where the housing market is awful, the rental market is also awful. I am moving away from such a place and the only reason we’ve been able to hang on as long as we have is that we live in an apartment building that’s falling down around us so we’re paying way below market for our area.

        Due to my field, anywhere I live is going to have a pretty savage rental market, but my new job is in a place where housing prices are less than a third of what they are in our current area.

        1. What da?*

          How far did you have to move? The situation where I am seems so hopeless that I’m honestly considering just staying with my parents and getting a part-time job nearby. I really don’t see the point in getting up and dragging myself to work every day so that I can pay for the privilege of renting a roach-infested apartment for the rest of my life, so any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

          1. Rainy*

            I’m moving a thousand miles to the less expensive part of a new state. I ultimately hope to be in a different (also less expensive) part of that state, but I really liked it when I did the fly-out and who knows, we might end up being perfectly happy there.

            My current state has basically become completely untenable. My field is usually a bit underpaid at the best of times but this area has a super high COL and as a result no one in my org is making a livable wage except the tippy top leadership roles who keep telling us peons making 35-70k to “cut back on Starbucks and avocado toast” and “make responsible financial decisions” while they make 300k. In 2020, my employer did a survey about cost of living and said they were going to offer down payment assistance as a benefit. People were stoked about it, until they sold the info of everyone who’d filled out the survey to predatory lending companies and then when the “downpayment assistance program” materialized, it was just a company that would loan you the downpayment for a percentage stake in your house–and the company itself provided downpayment assistance for about 14 months and then quit. It turned out the company had opened one actual location as a proof of concept and now they just sell the business model.

            Buying in nearby towns and commuting used to be the way people made it work, but as more and more people were willing to commute farther and farther, prices within what a rational person would consider a reasonable commute have all become out of reach for most people.

            1. What da?*

              Thanks for your response. I really don’t know what the solution is. I’d be willing to commute a reasonable distance but it seems like the problem is endemic to the English-speaking world, not just my state. And as someone who’s single and not exactly anyone’s idea of a catch, it looks like it’s going to be twice as tough for me to get on the housing ladder. I’m glad you managed to find something that works for you and wish you well on your move!

              1. Hyaline*

                It’s definitely not endemic to the English speaking world. Housing is quite reasonable where I live in the Midwest. It is, however, endemic to highly desirable cities. Sorry, but if you want to live somewhere affordable, you might want to expand your geographic options up to and including major moves to places people don’t tend to dream about living (but actually are really nice places to live IMO).

                1. Rainy*

                  I grew up in the midwest and most of the people I went to high school with either never left the area or went to college in a neighboring state and then promptly moved back. Lots of people like it there.

                  I, however, haven’t been back to the state I grew up in in 15 years. :) Some of us are just not midwest people; the low COL is not worth the rest of it.

          2. mreasy*

            It does seem like sticker shock is part of this but… not all apartments are run down and “roach-infested.” Maybe starter apartments aren’t as nice as they could be and rents are insane but… living in an apartment long-term isn’t like, a sentence to eternal misery. You just get nicer places as time goes on. It’s not easy for sure! My first apartment rent cost 50% of my (miserable) monthly salary. (With a roommate.) Eventually that got better. It’s up to whether you value more the independence and experience of going off on your own, or the comforts of a nice and spacious home in the short term.

            1. Plate of Wings*

              Well said! I’m older than OP and now I’m professionally successful and still renting, but things got better better even before my income went up. I lived in some apartments that really taxed me but things got better. Even at the same income for several years, I got “better” at renting: navigating the neighborhoods, recognizing a good deal, identifying what my personal dealbreakers were, and most importantly getting to know the area so I wasn’t paying a lot for a little like a newcomer to the city would.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There are several major metropolitan areas where the cost of property is completely divorced from wages – London, Vancouver, Miami, Toronto, Sydney, etc. Because a lot of the property price is driven by foreign investment. You could charitably describe it as wealthy people trying to get escape hatches; you can also describe much of it as money laundering.

      1. Rainy*

        I lived in Vancouver a decade ago and it was already bad, but my friends who stayed say it’s significantly worse now. One of my pals has been renovicted no less than three times in the last six years. She finally gave up and moved into an apartment complex (she’s been in basement suites for 15+ years) that was renovated a few years ago in the hopes that she can avoid another renoviction.

    5. Alex*

      Yes, that is why I’m 43 with a “professional” job (aka, needs a college degree), and still can’t comfortably afford market rent.

      I’m lucky in that I found a below-market rent apartment, AND I have a second, weekend job, so I don’t have to live with roommates.

      My friend who makes about the same as I do is moving into the CRAPPIEST apartment next month (from a different crappy apartment that is getting sold). That’s pretty much life in HCOL areas unless you are in a very high salary industry. Roommates, low-quality housing, multiple jobs, etc. is the norm.

    7. Rex Libris*

      Assuming you’re in the US, there are simply very few places you can live comfortably on less than $40,000 a year. Moving and setting up a new household is also an expense in itself, with utilities, insurance, etc. on top of the actual rental/mortgage costs.

      I’d honestly hold out for something with a higher salary unless you’re talking about moving to towns or small cities in Arkansas, Alabama, Kentucky, or somewhere else with a really low cost of living.

      1. What da?*

        Sadly I want to join what I assume is the same profession as you so holding out for a higher salary may not be a realistic option!

        1. Rex Libris*

          I’m a librarian, and it’s been a bit since I was just starting out, but I can tell you it was really common for new graduates to take virtually any library job somewhere fairly small or remote or rural for a couple of years, then use that experience to move on to a location we liked better. It’s very much a profession where you advance faster if you’re willing to move around early in your career, or at least that was my experience.

          1. What da?*

            Thanks for your advice. I suppose I’m reluctant to move states when I already know where I want to settle (I’m looking at a city close to home with two world-class colleges). It just seems like a needlessly complex way of going about it, but I accept that it may be a necessary sacrifice in the short term.

    8. PotatoRock*

      I mean, it is frustrating but the big things you’re missing are:
      – You don’t buy when you make 40k in an expensive city
      – You live with roommates
      – TONS of people pay more than the “economist-recommended” portion of income in rent
      – People have terrible commutes
      – Honestly a lot of people who work 40k jobs in a city like SF are living in their cars

      1. What da?*

        To be fair, I’d heard all that—I just thought the situation was so insane that I wanted to know whether there was anything I was missing. I know that people make it work as best they can but, at least on paper, it seems utterly ridiculous that the gap between average salaries and property prices could be allowed to grow so large, or that anyone would bother working if it meant having to live out of a car.

        1. Anonymous cat*

          In the HCOL desirable cities, some of the people are getting help from family money.

          Please note—I’m not saying they don’t work hard at their jobs! They do! but some aren’t living totally on their salaries. Or might be getting down payment money from family.

          That might be one of the pieces to the puzzle.

    9. Joe Momma*

      Corporate greed. Minimum wage in my state is $12/hr. Ok so they should get a roommate. Even with full time hours, there’s exactly ONE apartment complex in my city with 2-bedroom apartments that a minimum wage worker could afford to pay half on. It’s disgusting.

    10. Det. Amy Santiago*

      WFH has been a lifesaver for me bc I work for a company based in a high COL area but I live in a rural low COL region. So I’m able to afford a house and yard and quiet country life and my salary goes quite a long way. Is there any way you can WFH and move to a more affordable area?

      1. What da?*

        Not if I want to become a librarian! During the pandemic I was ready to move to the middle of nowhere and live the rest of my life in isolation, and I had a job that led me to believe that would be a possibility. When they pulled the rug out from under me, I left and decided to do something else with my life. I don’t really have the option of working from home if I want to follow this path; bqesides, if I move to the middle of nowhere *before* meeting someone then I’m probably going to spend the rest of my life alone—I used to think I’d be OK with that but I don’t anymore.

  60. Rainy*

    My last day at my old job was Wednesday, my husband’s last day is today, and now we are packing the house to move a thousand miles for my new job. I’m excited but also oh crap oh crap oh crap. :)

    Also, the rumblings that apparently only I heard two years ago that made me start looking for a new job? Well, old job is going downhill FAST. I have a feeling that I’m getting out just in time. Who knows, maybe they’ll be able to right the ship, but I haven’t seen any signs of it yet. Also, when they cut my program from two people to just me several years ago, they basically guaranteed that when I left there’d be a huge gap in services because I’m the only person who does what I do. Before I left, I was asked to train my remaining colleagues on something uses my 20 years of education and experience to do at all, let alone well. I teach a yearly seminar on that topic that takes 6-8 hours of direct instruction, for people who already have at least some idea about it. I was generously given 45 minutes.

    But that’s part of why I’m leaving–my office had a couple of lucky hires below the usual qualification level who have become excellent practitioners thanks to the robust training program we used to run as a (competitive!) practicum for grad students in this (clinical!) field and that new hires always sat in on, and somehow instead of thinking “the person who runs this training program is a pearl beyond price who is able to train people with little to no prior experience to fully do this job over the course of eight months,” the lesson leadership learned was “we can hire people with no prior experience cheaply.” So they cut the training program to one day, took it away from the person who’s been running it for years, and I’m sure they’re going to be super shocked when they hire people without training or experience in the field and they *don’t* magically turn into award-winning practitioners.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          That’s the best! When I left Oldjob I had a good friend still at the company who was happy to share all of the gruesome details about the company going down in flames. (I wasn’t the lynchpin just the canary in the coal mine.)

          After she left too she still had an insider and she would gleefully share the details with me. :-)

          1. Rainy*

            I want all of my pals to get out but realistically I know it will take a while so I’m happy about the tea in the meantime :D

            I frequently described myself as the canary in the coal mine, though from the other side of things. There are and have been for a while issues with a specific part of our office that only affect me, and I have been making noise about it for all of that time. After I did what I could to work with the problem to try and identify the disconnect, work with him to establish procedures, etc, and none of it helped, I escalated the issue and wouldn’t let go of it. Not that it did anything.

            The problem employee gets shifted around to different managers fairly often, I’ll let you guess why, and a recent one actually tried to make him shape up. With what I’m told was nearly constant monitoring and correction, the problem got a little better for a while. But the manager got a better job and left, and the problem immediately backslid.

            The best part is that now that I’m gone, the stuff I’m responsible for is being portioned out amongst the larger team who have rarely if ever been affected by the problem’s refusal to do this part of his job, so everyone gets to have a little taste of my life and I don’t think anyone is going to like it. I cannot WAIT to hear what happens.

  61. Dee Dee*

    I’ve been in denial for a while but it’s starting to become real. RTO 3x a week, including two mandatory days where everyone in the whole company has to be in. They’re going to be monitoring our access cards to make sure we comply. There will be no exceptions. Someone asked on the company message board about worrying about having post-COVID anxiety attacks over this and they were just referred to the EAP. I know someone else who moved back when we were told that we would never go back to the way it was and now has to commute 90 minutes each way.

    I hate it. I hate it. I hate it.

    I like working at home. I can close my door when I need to have a meeting. I don’t have to deal with a million other conversations happening around me when I want to focus. I don’t have to worry about packing a lunch. I can prepare a decent lunch. I don’t have to figure out parking or traffic or transit or getting my kid to/from school and then getting to work. I can exercise on my lunch break and have a shower afterwards. I’ve worked quite well for the past four years remotely and have not once in that time missed a deadline or flubbed a critical project. Nor has anyone on the team I manage.

    We’re adults. Let us work where we work best. And if someone’s not working well, manage them.

    Rant over for now. I have to go update my resume.

    1. Tradd*

      I’m so sorry, but unfortunately this seems to be the way things are going. I don’t know what industry you’re in, but fully remote positions are not available like they were a couple of years ago. Heck, a lot of companies seem to have pulled back on all hiring. I posted a bit up on today’s thread about the laid off 25-35 age range of the kids of friends who are refusing anything that isn’t WFH, and they’ve been out of work for at least six months.

      1. Dee Dee*

        Yeah, I have been watching for a few months now but it seems like everyone’s retreating back to the office. I don’t know why, as I keep seeing data emerging now suggesting that RTO doesn’t do anything for productivity or any other important business metrics whereas flexible options are significantly better for employees’ mental well being and are more equitable. Never mind the fact that COVID is still actually a thing. (I had it back in January and while it doesn’t affect my day to day I still have not recovered my fitness completely.)

        I have heard rumours that some of the cities in which my company has offices are offering employers kickbacks to get people back into the city cores. So I get to go in and sit on Zoom calls with people in those other offices all day in the name of the occasional coffee chat. (Of course, we no longer get free coffee like we did pre-pandemic.)

        I’m fortunate that I am still employed. I sure couldn’t stand being unemployed for any length of time, WFH or not. Desperation would kick in.

        1. Det. Amy Santiago*

          I think part of the push is that companies invested in real estate or leases and they can’t let those buildings now sit empty. Which is a terrible reason.

          There are still plenty of full time WFH jobs in my field, thank goodness. But I know that’s not the case everywhere.

  62. Ms. Whatsit*

    I am the last remaining member of the team I was hired to (3 plus a supervisor). I realized recently, that I’m the only one still working under the methods & standards from the team I started with and which we were all on board with.

    Between excessive workload and a few transitions, such requests are few and far between, so there’s no sense of what “normal” looks like, the (not original) supervisor defers so much to our expertise that we get very few corrections, and the newest person seems to think these practices are unnecessary. I don’t agree, both because I think my work improved through these practices and because I believe my own feedback is valuable. But being the only person offering it has made me look bad (in response to requests—I’m not barging in to offer it).

    There are some other wrinkles here involving addressing the conversation which made me realize this, which I need to raise with my supervisor, but as part of that discussion I’d like to pitch resetting the team a bit with the next transition (new person arriving in a couple weeks – and I will be going through my 4th busy autumn while guiding the other two through their first).

    I’d like to restart those norms, but I’m open to adapting them to the new people and context. Or at the very least I need a clear “we’re not doing that anymore” – not great but then it’ll be easier for me. Any ideas for how to pitch first my supervisor and then the team on this?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “Hey team, our new person starts soon and I’m putting together some guidelines for the training — and so that we’re able to use them for any other new hires. Things have been changing in the last couple of years and I want to check in about our processes and make sure that we are doing the things that make sense, are in compliance with whatever we need to comply with, and are as efficient and standard as would be reasonable so that our collective work process is consistent. Can we take an hour or two to review our core processes and check in with each other about best practice?”

      1. Ms. Whatsit*

        Thanks. I think I will need to adapt that some as now that I think about it it needs to be a 2 step process: 1) get my supervisor to agree to this 2) get him to implement it. I think if it comes from me it’ll just be me insisting on something “unnecessary” and maybe will make it seem like I’m trying to control things. But my supervisor is pretty reasonable, just a bit passive (and overwhelmed, like the rest of us).

    2. Ms. Whatsit*

      Replying to myself because I realized in rewriting the above a million times some things got lost. Basically we had a practice of reviewing drafts of statements and text analyses. I also have struggled to keep up with my work, including sending things for review, because the subject matters I cover became extremely busy and I have a huge backlog. (I first raised the alarm last summer and was told not to worry; I wasn’t asked for a list until about April…)

      As a result, I have struggled to get my drafts done in time to circulate, but have tried to respond timely when someone else has (not that often since the newest teammate made us team 3.0). So that’s not ideal and even looks a bit unfair (apparently quick to criticize for someone who’s so behind – which is not accurate for a variety of reasons but I get why it looks like that). Previous teammate (PT) and I both also shared concerns about the quality of ideas in now-departing mid-tenure teammate’s (MT) drafts (PT to a greater extent than me). I have both offered and been asked for help by MT, and there has been improvement, but I still end up thinking there need to be significant changes and warring with myself between thinking the drafts aren’t up to snuff and the discomfort of correcting a peer—something I raised to my supervisor several times to no avail.

      The result is (I believe) that I just look kind of mean to newest teammate because frankly they are close to MT, do not know the whole context (including previous help), and I think don’t know what they don’t know (they had an outsider view of team 2.0). At least this is my guess based on some very poorly conveyed, non-actionable, semi-anonymous (“it’s seen as…”) feedback from my supervisor (I think he regretted it and I did defend myself in the moment but there’s more to be said).

      What I really need to do is get out of here, for a number of reasons, but in the meantime I just want us to reset (including me clearing my backlog), figure out a workable system and stick to it, and improve our communication. Neither current newest nor incoming teammate have ever done our insane autumn schedule, so they’re going to have to rely on the very same expertise which guides my draft comments. I’m prepared to make a fresh start but I need this cleared up and my supervisor to be more active.

      I miss my first team, but I guess I have learned some valuable things about company conditions for my job search. This is probably too long but as you can imagine under the circumstances it’s stressful and frustrating.

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        If you’re job searching, I’d recommend that you look for the Quality Control positions in your field. Reviewing documents for consistency, content, and compliance is often very satisfying.

  63. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

    How about another story from my time working in a dysfunctional flea market?

    Original animal stories:
    https://www.askamanager.org/2024/08/lets-discuss-animals-at-work.html#comment-4815994

    The Haunted Spoons:
    https://www.askamanager.org/2024/08/open-thread-august-9-2024.html#comment-4817527

    The Mysterious Crates

    Part of my job as underpaid flea market clerk was to help clear out sale remainders and bring everything back to the store. The owner was prone to buying what was leftover from estate sales and inventory closeouts, usually sight unseen while in a white powder-induced manic mood. That often led to situations like an unexpected truckload of artificial Easter floral arrangements that we didn’t even make a dent in selling the entire time I worked there.

    Clearing out weird buildings and houses got to be pretty routine and I didn’t pay much attention to my surroundings when I was sent to a rambling Victorian-ish manor on the edge of town to clean out what I assumed was yet another round of ugly furniture and middling dishware from the end of an estate sale. So I was surprised when I walked in to find everything was in large wooden crates. Which…was not ideal. Half the crates were so huge, we could only fit two in the truck at a time. Also, we had to dismantle the door and part of the wall to get them out, which led to so many unanswered questions about their logistical thinking. Repacking the contents was not an option, according to the person in charge. It should have been a sign when they’d prefer we demolish part of the wall vs opening mystery crates.

    After many, many trips over three (!) days, we finally got the crates removed and loaded into the flea market. Thank goodness the owner thought to install a loading dock in the back. The usual procedure is we move inventory inside and once we get the go-ahead, we then disassemble or reassemble stuff or whatever, price everything, and set as much as we can on the floor and shove the rest into the storage room (a.k.a. the former bowling alley’s restaurant and bar).

    But this time, the owner got distracted by something shiny and didn’t give us the go-ahead. So the crates sat in the loading dock area, spilling out into the merchandise area, for two weeks, taunting us with their mysteries. We started a betting pool on what was inside and eventually started telling elaborate stories about a widowed duchess fleeing Interpol after being caught in an illicit affair with a black marketeer.

    One day, I was pricing some boxes of books that appeared in the office when I heard the manager yell “That’s it! I’ve had it!” Then she marched out of the back office with a large pry bar and started ripping the top off one of the smaller crates. The other clerk and I grabbed the nearest implements we could find and started opening our own crates.

    Upon opening the crates, we each found what looked like another rough wooden crate. And inside those crates were what looked like dirty rags. We poked at the rags but couldn’t figure out what it was supposed to be. We moved on to more crates, only to find the same thing. Slightly unnerved and a tad disappointed, we decided to tackle one of the large crates together.

    The first crate we opened together contained, you guessed it, another rough wooden crate. But there was something a bit odd about this one though none of us could figure out why. We opened the lid to the interior crate to find a ghastly skull staring back at us.

    The other clerk shrieked, I yelped, and we both jumped back in alarm. The manager, however, yelled “NOT AGAIN DAMMIT!” and stomped off to her office. The other clerk fled to her car in the parking lot for an early lunch, while I made a hasty exit of the loading dock and went to listen to the manager as she called up the owner and scolded him for what seemed like an eternity.

    The other clerk came back and I was about to go take my lunch when the owner showed up and he and the manager pulled the rest of us to the loading dock where we were directed to open the tops of all the crates but not the interior crates. After about an hour, we had pried open all the crates and a pattern began to emerge. The interior crates weren’t all rough wood. Some were sanded smooth, some were brightly polished, some were ornately decorated. And all of them, large and small alike, were rectangular.

    Yes, they were coffins. All of them. USED coffins.

    The manager called the sheriff’s department, who came and opened a sampling of coffins, finding occupants in most of them. The flea market was shut down for the rest of the week as the crates were slowly hauled off somewhere.

    We later found out that the rambling Victorian-ish manor used to be a funeral home that had its own cemetery back in the late 1800s. At some point, the cemetery was removed and the bodies were supposed to be relocated to a new cemetery but the funeral home went bankrupt before that could happen. The records had gotten lost when the courthouse had burned down so no one knew it was there. The house passed through so many owners that the stack o’ coffins were never dealt with. The remains were eventually disbursed to whatever families, cemeteries, and crematoriums they might belong to, though most went unclaimed as identification records were long gone.

    I think what really floored me in all of this wasn’t that the owner unknowingly purchased a bulk lot of dead bodies, it’s that, according to the manager, this wasn’t the first time it happened.

    3. Anonymous cat*

      Oh my. I think you won today. Not sure what but you won!

      I hope you become a weekly contributor here! It sounds like you have years of material? :)

      1. I strive to Excel*

        That’s about what I came out to. I don’t know what the heck category this fits into but it beats all.

      2. Anonymous cat*

        I was also thinking we haven’t had such wild animals on the premises stories since Hellmouth. And then—did Hellmouth send in any animal stories to the roundup?? She had so many!

        I wish someone knew her enough to let her know about the call for animal stories last week!

      1. GoryDetails*

        Seconding!

        Also, someone notify Caitlin “Ask a Mortician” Doughty immediately; I think she would have some… thoughts… about this.

    5. Ms. Whatsit*

      WOWZERS. I don’t think this can be topped. But if it can, it’ll probably involve this crazy owner.

  64. The Anony Mouse*

    Happy Friday, all!

    I have been a Llama Groomer for over 15 years, usually working for small for-profit companies, not large corporate structures, so I am unaccustomed to games with titles. I started working for a large corporation about two years ago. My title at the time was Llama Groomer. About a year after I started, my boss made a big deal of establishing guidelines and standards for what it takes to become a Senior Llama Groomer and a Lead Llama Groomer. The other two Groomers, who have been here 5+ years became Senior and Lead Groomers.

    This year, the Senior Groomer left and they hired a new person with the Senior Groomer title. That person had some of Mammal Grooming experience, but he objectively didn’t meet the criteria for Senior Llama Groomer. Boss said they hired him as a Senior because he was the best qualified applicant and that way they could afford to meet his salary request. Bonus: they asked me to train him on the specifics of Llama Grooming.

    My plan: I agreed to train him and will cheerfully train him on the intricacies of llama world. I will then mention it heavily in my year end job summary, and press for promotion to Lead at my year-end review. If, after doing the work, they refuse to promote me, I will refresh my resume and start looking, but I want to give my boss a chance to do the right thing.

    Am I being naive? I see training the new person, regardless of their title, as “other duties, as required” so it would be happening no matter what. But, at the same time, it sticks in my craw for them to specifically create standards and then completely disregard them.

    1. jasmine*

      were you in line for the senior groomer position? do you know why they chose the outside candidate over you? are there specific job qualifications your manager thought you didn’t meet?

      1. The Anony Mouse*

        When I started two years ago, I knew nothing about Llamas and got the regular Groomer title. The new person knows nothing about Llamas but got the Senior Groomer.
        It wasn’t a case of choosing him over me. New person was hired at the higher title.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Well, the question is why you weren’t bumped up to Senior Llama Groomer. Did you have the opportunity to apply? Do you want to be Sr Llama Groomer?

          I think you’re fooling yourself. They passed you over. Talk to your boss and find out what’s up, but unless that conversation goes *very* favorably *and* you see movement quickly, it’s time to go.

  65. my brain is dead*

    I have a bit of a golden handcuffs problem – I’m making (more than) decent money for the niche I’m in, but the organization is dysfunctional and I desperately want to make a move.

    The dysfunction in my part of the org presents itself as having little-to-no work to do on a regular basis, so I mostly just feel like I’m atrophying, and I have nowhere to go in terms of professional development. Everytime I try to raise this with a supervisor, it’s empty promises or a few weeks of minor improvements before we go back to business as usual. Ultimately, the problems are bigger than my department and I don’t see them being fixed in a timeframe that I’m happy with, so I need to leave.

    But… in my admittedly lax search, I don’t see any jobs in my niche that pay nearly as well as the job I have now, which allows me to pay rent + expenses in a HCOL area; I’m relatively early career (28, with 3 years in my current role and 2 years in a sort of related role) and fine with changing paths, but I’m not sure what new, probably entry level job would allow me to afford rent either. I know that “being paid too much” is a great problem to have, but I feel sort of stuck in this job I hate. Any advice at all?

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      I have been in similar situations – ebb and flow work and feeling like I’m atrophying, but getting good pay/benefits. For me, I talked to my boss and he agreed I could start taking online courses during work hours, like Lynda (or whatever it is now – Linked in Learning?). If anything actually work related came up, I’d stop immediately and take care of the task at hand, but otherwise, just kept banging away at the courses. (And on WFH days, I managed to bang out a manuscript that’s currently in production, so there’s that.)

    2. Pillow Castle*

      I’m paid well in a job I hate. I absolutely loved what I did until higher ups did a reorg and honestly destroyed everything that was good about the company. I’ve been effectively demoted in terms of job duties (not in title or pay) and I’m either bored or frustrated these days. So I’m looking, despite that fact that even a lateral move seems like it would pay less due to changes in the market. Part of me thinks I’m crazy – why not stay and get paid well for less work? Except my happiness matters more than money. While not ideal, I’m lucky that I can take about a 25%-30% pay cut and be ok financially. I’ve been picky – looking for a good fit within my acceptable salary range. I don’t want to make a jump and be miserable elsewhere.

      I recommend deciding what salary is acceptable for you and looking for things within that. You mention your search has been a bit lax so far – so I’d step that up. There are probably more options out there than you’ve seen so far.

      Good luck!

    3. I didn't say banana*

      When I was in a similar position, I set clear numbers for the things that mattered. I wanted to stay until I’d paid off X% of my mortgage/saved a year’s salary. I also set a limit on how many times I would call in sick because I just couldn’t face work. I aimed to stay for 2 more years unless something amazing came up first (which it did). Having a few clear criteria for when I would leave took some of the “should I or shouldn’t I” mental effort away.

  66. Rooty*

    A coworker recently told me about this situation and I am curious about your thoughts.

    Coworker works from home full time and her spouse works from home three days a week. They have a 9 year old and a 25 year old. Spouse was recently told that he couldn’t work from home if kids were home without childcare. The 9 year old obviously attends school during the school year but didn’t go to camp every week this summer. He is apparently pretty self sufficient and happily plays outside/with legos/video games during the workday and is never on the same floor as spouse. 25 year old doesn’t live at home, but can be needier than 9 year old when home.

    To me, it seems crazy that working at home would be banned in that environment. Coworker works in an environment that allows for flexibility. Obviously, childcare is needed for toddlers and kids that aren’t self sufficient. What are your thoughts on where the line should be in policies like these? Also, this policy would arguably apply when 25 year old visits, which also seems silly.

    1. bee*

      I’m not sure why the 25 year old would be factored in at all; these policies are obviously meant to cover minor children even if that isn’t explicitly stated. Even for the 9 year old, I would think there should be some sort of age cutoff in terms of childcare. At some point kids are old enough to stay home and do their own thing, especially during the summer. Perhaps 9 is too young, but I could easily see 11 or 12 as a cutoff for needing childcare in this sort of situation.

    2. Feeling Feline*

      I think the unreasonable thing is not allowing working from home, if the trade and work can be done from home with same efficiency and productivity. This applies to anyone, whether they have no children, have a 9 year old, or a high need 25 year old are irrelevant to here.

    3. DrSalty*

      I agree with you. Imo these rules are for babies or toddlers or a situation where full time caregiving is required. I would ignore it for a 9 year old.

      1. Rooty*

        I don’t think I made this clear in the original post, but boss was specifically commenting about the 8 year old in this situation, which just seemed bizarre to me.

    4. WellRed*

      The 25 year old doesn’t apply here because they don’t even live in the home, let alone they are a legal adult. I’m sure when the policy says kids, they mean it in the sense of actual minor children.

      1. Feeling Feline*

        Overall I agree, the way the question is set up here makes me wonder if the 25 year old is special needs, and normally reside in a supported care place.

    5. Alex*

      I mean I kind of get it. Many individual 9-year olds are fine entertaining themselves and not interrupting their parents while they work.

      BUT if you have to have a blanket policy, I get why 9 year olds are included. When you have multiple kids, things can get noisy, and sometimes 9 year olds or even older DO need supervision.

      I think a better policy is that you need to make arrangements such that you are not interrupted and you are available the same as everyone else during the day, if your role requires it. OR, you need to meet your goals, deadlines, etc., and if not, arrangements need to be revisited.

      And I can’t imagine that the 25 year old is actually included! 25 is old enough to live alone and be employed. If the 25 year old is causing disruption, that is a problem between the adults, not a childcare problem!

      1. Rainy*

        Yup. As a 9yo I needed zero supervision: make sure there’s stuff for me to make PBJ or eggs and toast or something and that I have enough books, and I would have been perfectly fine. My little sister as a 9yo needed constant supervision; WFH with her would have been impossible. You can’t make that kind of policy for the best case scenario–it has to be for the worst, because the people with the impossible kids always seem to be the ones who will ignore anything but a very clear “don’t do this or you’ll be fired.”

        1. PotatoRock*

          In practice, I think this falls into : if your 9 year old is self sufficient enough that no one can tell, you’re in compliance. (Doesn’t mean no one knows the kid is home, but imagine you have a full time nanny or kid’s other parent is home)

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Our remote work policy says that you cannot be the active primary caretaker for children under the age of 12 while on the clock. Functionally, however, the way it generally ends up working out is, if you’re meeting your metrics, not missing meetings or having a kid running around and hollering in your meeting background, and your manager otherwise cannot tell that you are handling childcare while on the clock, godspeed – we don’t have any way to like, check on whether you have a babysitter in house or whatever.

      Often when I say this, someone gets all affronted about how if we’re not strictly monitoring the policy then why even have it, which blows my mind because it seems to me fairly obvious that it is a GOOD THING that there’s a little flexibility for someone with a ten year old who is perfectly capable of entertaining themselves out of the way 99% of the time, while also having something in writing for people who are completely dropping every ball in their bucket because they don’t want to pay for daycare for their rambunctious toddler. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    8. Hyaline*

      I mean, the 25 year old is irrelevant except as a comparison point, as I imagine that the policy is either written explicitly to state minor children or is intended to mean that–though it would still be pretty ridiculous to expect childcare for a 16 year old, though. I think these blanket policies are pretty stupid and childcare is no one’s business but the parents,’ and if the parent does not require childcare to complete their work effectively and efficiently, who the heck cares. If someone cannot complete their work, then their manager can say “get childcare, find another solution, or get fired.” But I realize this is not how corporate policies work.

      Frankly, this is the kind of scenario in which I would absolutely ask forgiveness not permission and count on my kid continuing the good work entertaining himself and just roll with what works. Especially as “without childcare” is kind of vague. Does other WFH spouse count (to the employer, who needn’t now that the spouse is also employed)? Does the kid himself count at some point?

  67. Elizabeth West*

    Hey all, thanks for the advice and commiseration re my layoff last week. I’ve signed up for everything, submitted boatloads of verification documents, and am waiting for approval on MassHealth (ugh, better not be $$ or I’m fudged).

    I posted this late on Sunday so not sure if y’all saw it, but I reached out to one of our outside engineering consultants on LinkedIn just to let her know I was laid off and see if she wanted to stay in touch (we had indulged in some fun non-work conversation). She pinged me back immediately and said she heard, she was shocked, and she offered to be a reference. \0/

    My question today is this: I applied to a lot of companies here when I was in OldState and got no response, I assume because I wasn’t local. Now that I am local, would it be okay to reapply to those companies? I don’t think they’d remember me from 2021 or 2022, would they? I would only be applying to the ones I didn’t interview with.

    Thanks in advance. <3

    1. Rainy*

      It’s great that you already secured a reference! Maybe reach out to any other people that you’d formed some kind of non-work-based relationship with to do the same?

      And yes, of course you can reapply to anything that you qualify for! Including companies you interviewed with! Don’t limit yourself like that, because the chances that they are going to care that you applied previously are even slimmer than the chances that anyone will remember.

      1. Anonymous cat*

        That’s what I was thinking!

        Plus, if they did notice or care, what’s the worst that would happen? They might say no again but it’s my understanding companies only get annoyed when people apply again and again and refuse to hear a No. (Alison has examples!)

        But applying twice over several years would be okay. (If anyone has better info, let us know!)

    3. Victoria*

      Definitely apply at places where you interviewed — those are places that already thought well enough of you to interview you!

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Hahaha, looking at my old job apps spreadsheet, it’s amusing how I didn’t know where stuff was. I’m seeing how I applied all over the area and I know now that my commute to some of them from my current apartment would be over two hours.

    5. 653-CXK*

      I’m glad you’re getting things sorted out.

      When I joined MassHealth, I knew that if I got the same-as-my-ExJob coverage, it would be boatloads of money. I sifted through some of the plans and the mid-range (silver) plans were about a third of what they wanted to charge for COBRA, but my current providers could not be used as they did not accept my version of MassHealth. However, the community health plans did, so I went to a community health center for what I needed until I got hired at current job (ironically, another community health center). If you like, I can send you the job openings from there.

  68. bee*

    I’m not sure why the 25 year old would be factored in at all; these policies are obviously meant to cover minor children even if that isn’t explicitly stated. Even for the 9 year old, I would think there should be some sort of age cutoff in terms of childcare. At some point kids are old enough to stay home and do their own thing, especially during the summer. Perhaps 9 is too young, but I could easily see 11 or 12 as a cutoff for needing childcare in this sort of situation.

  69. Temporarily Unlurking*

    I am facing an eventual layoff – we don’t know the exact timeline yet but it will be at least a year out. I have been wanting to change industries anyway so I am job hunting now and looking for anything that seems applicable to my skills. Is there anything else I need to do to prepare other than beefing up my emergency fund and asking for references?

      1. Always Tired*

        This one. Get everything done. Max out that dental annual, get the new glasses, schedule your annual and any other regular screening, all of it. Pack in what you can, because ACA/COBRA is expensive.

        Also spend down your FSA and commuter benefits, cause those are use it or lose it. And take all those sick days, because in California at least, PTO/Vacation pays out on termination, but sick time is use it or lose it, but you can also use it to go to all those doctor appointments.

    3. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      As you’re looking at the job openings in the new industry, make note of the skills that you’re not current on and consider taking (online) training classes for these skills.

  70. Annony*

    I am applying for jobs and I have found that a lot of the job posts are somewhat vague about requirements. I am in a niche field and so it is pretty common to have a broad range of experience that they will accept (posting is for junior/senior/very senior roles and makes clear they will hire at any level). There is a certification needed for the job but some places will hire people who are eligible to take the certification exam but haven’t had the chance yet (it is only offered every two years). If you were the hiring manager or recruiter, would you be annoyed to get an email asking if they will consider certification eligible candidates? Or would it be better to simply apply stating that I am eligible but do not have the certification yet? I don’t want to waste my time or theirs. I would be able to take the exam 1-2 months after my desired start date.

    1. Sherm*

      Since it seems somewhat common for people to be hired without the certification, I wouldn’t worry about seeming like you’re wasting their time by applying. I would go ahead and apply.

  71. MinionOnion*

    Just preaching to the choir. When you have a cumulative total of 26 accrued PTO days (same bank as sick with 6 of those being forced holidays) for the entire year, a kid going into elementary school and are already burnt out from hoarding days, working and adulting… how do you enjoy life and take time to recharge? I feel like a P O S for not giving my daughter a real vacation, and a P O S employee for just not caring at times and getting away with bare minimum. Burnout is real. I have worked through COVID and a stomach bug just to “hoard” PTO just in case. No real question. I am spent and depressed.

    1. WellRed*

      When I was a kid, we didn’t do a lot of “real vacations.” I turned out fine and didn’t even notice. Kids just need time with you and fun of course.

    2. I strive to Excel*

      Hugs to you! That’s such an exhausting situation to be in.

      If you don’t feel open to doing full days off, could you take a couple of half days? Especially if what you’re worried about is spending less time with kid, and *especially* if the kid has a school system with half days. Time your half day off with their half day and do something local, fun, and lowkey. Museums, parks, gardens, a trip through IKEA for meatballs and new kitchen gadgets, afternoon tea, whatever you like.

      Alternatively – on a day your kid is in school, schedule a half day for yourself to get a break! Go to a coffee shop and read a book, or have a spa day, or even just evict everyone else from the house and take a long nap.

    3. Det. Amy Santiago*

      26 days seems like a lot to me! I get 3 weeks per year (15 days) plus holidays. Or are you saying your 26 days includes holidays like New Year’s Day?

  72. Man, I Love Felines*

    I’m a new manager for a small team of 4. One of my staff has been with the company about a year and is new-ish to professional office norms and, frankly, a bit immature but learning. She has told me many times that she wants to grow and progress with the company and hopefully take on more responsibility as time goes on.

    Shortly after she started, she was befriended by an older male employee. He is in a high level position (think director) and about 20 years her senior. They began getting lunch together once or twice a week. My staff member is fairly open about what they talk about and has mentioned that, while he is married with children, the relationship is “basically over”. He also said something along the lines of “hey, are you and I just friends or do you want to take down some boundaries and see where it goes?”. She told me this, along with other team members, and pretty much laughed it off, said she told him they were just friends, etc. This immediately gave me the ick and I told her to be careful. We are a small company and gossip travels fast. Even if nothing untoward is happening, she needs to be mindful of the optics and think about how she wants other people to view her. She kinda sorta agreed, but they continue to see each other often during breaks and he will stop by regularly and bring her little gifts (coffee mug, treats, etc). She recently was out sick and her emails forwarded to me, as her manager since she is not at a level that allows remote access. This man emailed her saying, “sorry I can’t make lunch today but we’ll get together next week or maybe after work”. I have not seen any evidence that anything explicitly inappropriate is going on here. Men and women can be friends, after all, and it isn’t my business if they were to be involved. He is in a completely different department with no power over her job. But, the whole situation is just…icky to me. I already advised her to watch herself so as not to be the target of gossip but she doesn’t seem to care. She is a young-ish single mother, I know she is lonely and struggles to make ends meet so maybe a free lunch and a listening ear is all she wants. My other staff members have privately told me that they don’t like it, mostly because this man is married, but I can’t reprimand her for this friendship. Do I reiterate my point about being careful with optics if she intends to move up the ladder here? Or do I just leave it alone and pray nothing blows up?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s not just gossip she needs to be concerned about. It’s being on the receiving end of retaliation from the senior guy too.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      This is a giant “sweetie, no.” She may have told him no, but he’s not listening and as long as she keeps hanging out with him, this is gonna continue.
      Clearly “optics” is not dissuading her as an argument. You may need to come up with some other argument since “what will other people think?” isn’t concerning her.

        1. Man, I Love Felines*

          I definitely agree with you both. She is very green and doesn’t really understand many office norms until myself or someone else explicitly tells her, at which point she usually takes our direction. I just don’t know where my responsibility lies here as I can’t forbid her from being this guy’s friend, even if I can clearly see that he is wanting more than friendship. I can’t quite tell if she is truly naive or if she is using him right back.

          1. WellRed*

            You don’t forbid it. As her manager you are in a position to guide and mentor her. Nelly Naïveté: “I really want to grow here.”
            You; “you could grow here but you are behaving unprofessionally. That will hold you back because people will question your judgment.”

            1. Man, I Love Felines*

              Very good points. It’s not an easy thing to make someone see but I’d be doing a disservice to her by not being explicit. Appreciate your input.

              1. WellRed*

                Nothing about this is easy and you have my sympathy. Just remember, you felt “ick” for a reason.

              1. PotatoRock*

                Yes and be clear that you have her back if she wants help shutting down “should we take down some boundaries” (!!!) and making sure there will be no retaliation against her for that

                1. BikeWalkBarb*

                  That suggests an additional tactic. Do you have HR and are they reasonably good? You said it’s a small company.

                  You could provide her with information on how HR can be a resource if she feels uncomfortable at any point, make sure she’s read your employee handbook and guidelines about sexual harassment if you have those. “I want you to be aware that something that feels like a friendship can be inappropriate under our company policies and you have rights in the situation.” Seeing behaviors laid out in print with “these are against company policy” may give her a different perspective on his behaviors.

                  I share your ick.

    3. Rainy*

      Oh no. She’s cooked at that company; any advancement is going to be written off as having been earned for being his mistress. :/ I guess she’s so young this is her first brush with the older man who tells her his relationship is “basically over”. She’s already missed her chance to learn the lesson the easy way; I hope she manages to extricate herself before the price becomes the destruction of her career.

    4. Being Dragged out of Closet*

      I honestly think this is more a he problem than she problem. She doesn’t really have the power to say no here.

      1. Man, I Love Felines*

        The power dynamics aren’t so cut and dry here. He is much older but has only been with the company about as long as she has. He has zero involvement in the hierarchy of our division. He is a director but think corporate purchasing versus our department of sales support – there’s really no overlap. So I don’t think it’s a case where she felt pressured into anything. However, that doesn’t mean if this blows up that she would emerge unscathed.

        1. Feeling Feline*

          Hmmm.I think a direct conversation is needed. I’m an old person, I just suffer* from being aromantic asexual, and I absolutely cannot pick up any of the “common sense” things that are intuitive to allos. The best I can do is actively avoid anyone who explicitly express desires, or use phrases such as “just friends”, anything more subtle is just not within my neurotype. I do want an allo person who can explicitly point out things that are blantantly outside of my sensory capacity, and nip it in the bud.

          *Mostly there are no suffering, I love it. However interacting with allos can be a complete nightmare because apparently allos think that romantic sexual relationship is something I’d want. From them.

    5. I didn't say banana*

      I don’t think it’s any of your business. Some things have to be learned the hard way – you’ve tried to tell her, she’s not interested. Tell your team to stop talking about and judging her and move on.

    6. Fur Fir Fer*

      Not sure why it’s any of your business? He’s not her manager and they are adults. Unless your compa y has explicit rules against employees becoming friends and having lunch.

  73. CR Heads*

    It doesn’t really sound like anything’s happening – they’re friends, he asked for more, she said no, and now it seems they’re just friends again?

    Not sure what you could or would do here – you’ve already made the point about optics, I’d let it go from here.

    1. Man, I Love Felines*

      I get that but also, how many men actually take no as no and are OK with just being friends? There’s plenty of good dudes out there who would but I doubt they’re the kind who would tell a young woman their marriage is “over” and try to link up..

      Even so, I don’t really know where my obligation ends here either way.

      1. CR Heads*

        I agree, the guy could very easily be a jerk and continue to try and hit on her. It sounds like you’ve already laid out all the pitfalls though so I’m not sure what else you can really do

  74. WellRed*

    High level men 20 years senior, and married, is NOT interested in being friends with a young single mother or offering a “listening ear.” This whole thing is such a cliche I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry. That’s even if you take out his BS line about his marriage being over. Bet the wife doesn’t think so. She needs to get her head out of her ass. Does HE know everyone is talking?

    1. Man, I Love Felines*

      I honestly think he doesn’t realize that she is telling us everything he has said to her. Either that or he’s too arrogant to care about what our entire team thinks of him. We have very little interaction. The whole thing IS such a cliche and again, I’m not really sure if she realizes that and doesn’t mind using his crush to get lunch and a friend or if she just wants to believe that he is a good guy.

      1. Bruce*

        wow… back in the 80s a coworker had an affair with her boss, I made a point to never gossip about it but I overheard others. Later we both ended up at a different company and she always had her guard up around coworkers from the old place… she was very smart and hard working, and I never spread or heard any gossip at the new place so I think she was able to move on from the story. But it seemed for a time like a cloud over her for all the hard work she was doing.

    2. anon2*

      She’s being preyed on by a high-level man 20 years her senior and *she* needs to “get her head out of her ass”? Yikes.

      1. WellRed*

        She’s not without choices (and is ignoring others about this) and Feline is only asking about their responsibilities toward her. Trust me, my language for what HE should do isn’t suitable for print.

        1. anon2*

          You’ve posted twice about this and definitely seem like the same user. In this thread, Feline wasn’t asking anything, WellRed was. Sorry I don’t have good advice; I’ll disengage.

          1. Myrin*

            Huh? I’m pretty sure WellRed – who has been a regular commenter here for years – simply mis-nested her reply to Felines and accidentally started a new thread (same as CR Heads did one top comment above this one, btw).

  75. Anonynon*

    I saw this line on a job posting recently: “Ability to work in an open office environment.” It struck me as odd because why would that be a requirement for any job, unless maybe for a receptionist or customer service position, where you’d have to be around people. This was for a program coordinator role, where from the look of it, a lot of it if not all of it could be done from home. It makes me uncomfortable because as someone with ADHD, an open office environment is difficult for me and I’m a lot more productive working from home. This was for a hybrid position, too, so specifying the need to work in an open office environment seemed even weirder. Does it seem strange? It almost seems a bit discriminatory against people with disabilities that wouldn’t allow them to work in a busy office environment, like they’re trying to weed out people with ADHD or Autism. Am I overthinking this?

    1. WellRed*

      It’s a requirement because it’s … an open office environment. Whether you are there part time or full time, you need to be able to handle it. There’s no discrimination here. It’s a job requirement (and plenty of people without any diagnoses also hate open offices),

      1. Decidedly Me*

        This! My neurotypical partner got two offers out of college and specifically chose the one he did to avoid an open office environment. I think it’s helpful that they’re giving that information up front, so people can self-select out if that’s not what they want – it saves time for everyone.

    2. DrSalty*

      This doesn’t seem strange to me. Our job postings used to say that when we were in the physical office. It’s a requirement because that’s what their office layout is. They’re just being upfront about it, which honestly is a kindness to applicants. If the job isn’t listed as remote or hybrid then it doesn’t matter if it could be done from home or not. THIS job needs to be done in an open office environment, and applicants should keep that in mind.

    3. Kesnit*

      I am not reading that as weeding out people with AHDH or autism. I read it as making it clear that the workspace is an open workspace so people know before they apply. Will this weed out some people with ADHD and autism? Yes. It allows people to determine for themselves if this is an environment that they could work in. There is nothing stopping someone from saying “I’ll apply and if I get an interview, I can check out the workspace and see if it’s as bad as it could be.”

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This is not strange at all. In fact, it’s great that the company is that upfront. How many people hate open office environments and show up asking about privacy? Probably more than a few, so why not lay everything on the table and say, “Yup, open office, this is what it is.” Would you rather have gotten excited about the job, been called in for an interview and then told it’s an open office, which doesn’t work for you?

    5. Nancy*

      It’s a requirement because that’s the environment employees will be working in when in the office. Plenty of people hate open office environments, or have trouble working in them. It has nothing to do with any diagnosis.

      I think more job postings should have this type of detail and appreciate those that do.

    6. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      My job description not only describes my work environment (office), but also gives what sound like obvious physical requirements for the job: frequently sits, use hands, and reach with hands and arms, regularly required to talk or hear and is occasionally required to walk, uses close and color vision. They do have a disclaimer about reasonable accommodations.

      It may sound like they should be able to accommodate someone who can’t work in an open office environment, but if they don’t have private offices, it’s unreasonable to assume they would create one.

  76. Anonynon*

    Am I over thinking this? I saw this line on a job posting recently: “Ability to work in an open office environment.” It struck me as odd because why would that be a requirement for any job, unless maybe for a receptionist or customer service position, where you’d have to be around people. This was for a program coordinator role, where from the look of it, a lot of it if not all of it could be done from home. It makes me uncomfortable because as someone with ADHD, an open office environment is difficult for me and I’m a lot more productive working from home. This was for a hybrid position, too, so specifying the need to work in an open office environment seemed even weirder. Does it seem strange? It almost seems a bit discriminatory against people with disabilities that wouldn’t allow them to work in a busy office environment, like they’re trying to weed out people with ADHD or Autism. Am I overthinking this?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I think what they’re doing is telling you that you’ll be in a particular office set up when you’re in office, and if that’s not going to work for you, then you might want to forgo applying.

      It’s possible that reasonable accommodations could be made if you get the offer, but it’s also possible that they just don’t have offices and wouldn’t be able to accommodate fully remote due to whatever their operating procedures are like.

      I suspect it’s not a “let’s weed them out” situation and more of a “we’re tired of people fighting us about this stupid open plan set up we have and they won’t let us change”.

      1. mreasy*

        Yeah, if the office folks have to work in is an open office, people who can’t tolerate that shouldn’t apply. I actually think it’s thoughtful to include that because so often the folks writing the JDs all have their own offices & don’t realize why it’s a problem.

        I have ADHD and have long worked in open offices. Headphones and the office vibe make all the difference for me.

      2. Ginger Cat Lady*

        There’s really no difference between the two. They *are* tired of people fighting about the open plan, so that’s WHY they’re trying to weed them out.
        It happens all the time. Companies that put a “must be able to lift 50 lbs” requirement on a desk job where no lifting is part of the duties, because they don’t want to hire disabled people. I once saw a company that advertised that they were hoping that the new employee would join the company’s marathon running team. For a desk job.
        What you portray as different situations are just two sides of the same discrimination coin.

        1. Roland*

          The fake 50 lb is very different because this job is (probably) actually in an open plan office. And that decision was made solely for $$$ reasons. We can point to disparate impacts without trying to create intent where there isn’t any.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Yeah, I think you are overthinking it a little :) They’re not saying the nature of the job inherently requires the ability to work in an open office, they’re saying this job is going to be in an open office, so being able and willing to work in an open office is required.

      Are they trying to screen out certain disabilities? Not impossible — unlikely in my opinion, and ineffective if that’s what they’re doing (speaking as an ADHDer who always did my homework in the dining hall rather than the library). Regardless, it’s not illegal or anything if that’s what they’re doing, as evidenced by all of the job postings with “able to lift and carry 50 pounds” for positions that absolutely do not require that ability.

  77. Shellieee*

    My company recently adopted a no-reference policy, and I think I’m going to be sick. I’m in a very dead-end administrative assistant role. It uses no technical/testable skills and produces no portfolio of work that I could show. And now I have nobody that can speak to my ability to do my job without fear of getting fired. I applied for an internal move a few weeks ago to a role that uses some more interesting skills, but I haven’t heard back and assume I’m not being considered. I’ve been here two years and think I need to get out before my old references are even more stale. Any chance this isn’t as bad as it seems?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Yes, there’s a chance! AAM has written several times before about how even if the company has a no-reference policy, a good reference-checker can usually get people to talk.

    2. Noquestionsplease*

      I don’t see the problem. Your job “uses no skills” so what would a reference even say other than you showed up on time? You’re not going to be submitting references with a job application; when you get to an interview, just explain that your company policy is no references. You could also sign up with a temp agency; they don’t care about references. Mostly they want a warm body they can send out who is capable of answering a telephone and making copies.

    3. Nancy*

      Are there former coworkers that you can contact? People at old jobs? I’ve never used a current coworker or supervisor as a reference, they’ve always been people who left before me or were from other jobs.

    4. Fur Fir Fer*

      It’s not a big deal at all. When you apply for a new job, that employer won’t be contacting your current company bc you obviously don’t want them to know you’re job hunting, right? They would be contacting your previous managers.

      If you have a trustworthy co-worker or team lead who will give you a glowing reference, that’s the person to put on your reference list when you’re at the next job.

  78. Scholar Nervous*

    I’m about halfway through my first year working in the government and I’m always filled with fear that my supervisor will somehow think I didn’t measure up, if documents I write come back from upper heads with edits needed (I’m not a mind reader, and this is my 1st time writing that type of document) or if I see my immediate lead write more information into a template I created (where I get nervous I maybe missed something). Then I start wanting to apply for jobs because in my mind, it’ll protect against that fear. How do you overcome that imposter syndrome-type feeling that you’re failing/forgetting things your first year at your new job?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Many government offices are machines for creating redline comments. This is a completely normal part of the job. People with 30 years of experience still get redlines.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Yeah. This is really common, especially since policies and procedures are often changing, or they’re responding to information they just got in a meeting, etc.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Have you gotten any feedback on how your boss thinks you’re doing overall? If not, can you ask?

      But yeah, as Alton said, this is the process. Documents get reviewed at multiple levels *because* it’s expected that multiple people’s input will be needed. This is not like you’re turning in schoolwork and getting a bad grade, this is the system working as intended!

      1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

        That’s a great framing! And totally true, which is a benefit :)

        OP, could you tell yourself you’re expecting to receive a red lined document back/changes or edits to your work? Like a normal next step after you click send. Like if you were make a process flowchart the steps would be 1, get task, 2, do task, 3, submit for edits, 4, receive and incorporate edits, rinse and repeat 3 and 4 as needed.

        So that when it happens you’re not disappointed or caught by surprise.

    3. Fur Fir Fer*

      Every document I’ve ever submitted for review has come back with edits/redlines and other feedback (in my 30-year career). You can’t take it personally. You’re all working to make the end product as good as possible. I don’t always incorporate everyone’s feedback but I do consider it carefully.

  79. Always Tired*

    I’ve been waiting for this thread all week.

    I work for a small firm with a distinct office/field divide. Most field staff are hourly, have a set amount of vacation, and an annual $300 tool allowance. Office staff and some field are salary, with unlimited vacation but no tool allowance. We will be hiring an entry level office admin-type next week, and that will be our first hourly office staff member. The plan is to give the role the standard hourly benefits package, but… what would replace the tool allowance? The tool allowance allows field staff to replace, upgrade, or expand their existing personal tools that they use on the job (Some of them also use it for new work boots, resoling, etc) But the admin would have all the equipment to do their role provided, doesn’t need safety equipment, and we are a casual office (I won best dressed this week when I wore cotton twill pants and a linen top with some loafers). I suppose I could just leave it off, but that doesn’t feel fair.

    Any suggestions for relabeling the tool allowance bucket or other benefit to provide parity would be welcome.

    1. Bella Ridley*

      I understand your desire for parity, but are you sure it’s necessary? If the tool allowance is one where you permit staff to go purchase what they need and then provide reimbursement, I’m not sure most office staff would even expect to see an allowance like that. If it’s one where you hand them three crisp C-notes and don’t ask any questions, that’s different. But I know that if I was going into an admin role like this one I wouldn’t expect to see the equivalent of a tool allowance if there was nothing to spend it on.

    2. Cordelia*

      I don’t really understand, I’m afraid. The tool allowance is for the tools. The admin staff don’t need tools. It would be pretty unfair to give them the allowance anyway, as that’s equivalent to giving them extra pay – they get to spend it on whatever they like, whereas the field staff need it for work purposes. To me that would be the equivalent of giving staff who use their own cars as part of their jobs a mileage allowance to cover gas, wear and tear, and then giving a cash bonus for the same amount to staff who are entirely office-based.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Yeah, I think that’s a good way of framing it. You have a tool allowance *because* you’re making these people use their personal tools for the job. Yes, that might be a nice little perk if they also use those same tools for personal projects, but that’s not the reason for the allowance.

    4. shrambo*

      How about relabeling as “budget” rather than “allowance”? Presumably you have an office supplies budget for the admin staff to cover things like computers, sticky notes, etc. The tool allowance is the same thing – the amount the company is willing to spend on supplies for the job.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Unlimited vacation more than makes up for $300 a year, in my book. At fifteen bucks an hour, $300 is 2.5 days off.

    6. I strive to Excel*

      I would rephrase the buckets in your head. It’s not that hourly staff get a tool allowance. Field staff get a tool allowance. If your salary field staff are not getting a tool allowance, should they? Or does the unlimited vacation cover that?

      But you could consider a technology/internet allowance if your office staff will be working on personal devices, or have a line item for work-provided electronics.

  80. LinkedIn Learning Novice*

    I am on medical leave from work for Long COVID and I’m facing the possibility of not being able to go back. It’s not a certainty yet but I’m pursuing disability (very small benefit in my case, would only cover me for about 2 years).

    I am an upper-level university administrator doing student affairs and some scholarship $$ stuff. My workplace offers free LinkedIn Learning courses and the catalog has thousands of options. With my subscription possibly expiring when/if my job is terminated in a couple months, I’m thinking of taking advantage of a little free training. I have limited cognitive capacity right now but enough to do a few hours a week online.

    I know this is a broad question, but does anyone have recommendations for LiL courses that could be particularly valuable? Or that you really enjoyed? I don’t need updated MS Office skills but maybe project management? Coding? Fundraising? How to work with AI tools? Assuming I might have to be back on the job market in a couple years looking for a senior admin role, what online-training bonus skills might be good for me to have on my resume?

    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I don’t have specific course recommendations, but I did want to say that many public libraries offer free LIL access with a library card, so you might not be under the time crunch you think you are, you may still have access later.

  81. Anon for this one*

    I potentially have a sticky situation coming up. I’m nearing final stages for a new job and I’m about to take 4 weeks off at my current job. The timing is such that if I get an offer, it will likely come around the first week of my 4 weeks off. Ideally, I’d start the new job 2-4 weeks after I return, but 2 weeks means going right from one job to the next (I know I will have just had a very long time off, but still stressful to go directly from one job to another). 4 weeks would allow me to give 2-3 weeks at my current job and then a 1-2 week break before starting the next. However, the person providing temporary coverage for the role at new job is taking leave right around the time I’m returning from my time off. Other option is to work the first two weeks of my vacation to finish out old job, which is workable, but not ideal for a bunch of reasons, including losing two weeks of paid time off (not on an accrual system, so nothing to pay out otherwise). No feasible options leave me with overlap with the temporary person in the role unfortunately.

    I doubt an offer, if I were to get one, would be pulled over any of this, but I also want to leave on good terms with old job and start on the right foot at new job. Anyone have experience with negotiating a less than ideal start date?

    1. TCO*

      In many roles in the U.S., asking for a start date 7-8 weeks out from the accepted offer is longer than the norm. It sounds like this role is important enough to their day-to-day operations that they have someone temporarily covering it and they may be eager to get someone started.

      If I were you, I’d ask for enough time to finish your planned vacation, work out two weeks’ notice, and start the new job right after that. Start there and see what they say. I think it’s a reasonable sacrifice to give up time in between jobs when you’ll have just had a 4-week vacation. People start jobs without time off in between all the time.

      Could you use some of your vacation to do a bit of prep to make the transition easier? If you need to buy some new clothes, get a haircut, figure out your commute, etc. you could try to get that stuff done in advance. You could also try to prep some things to make that first week or two at the new job easier: cook and freeze some meals, schedule a dog walker, cancel some evening and weekend commitments, or whatever else would free up some time to relax and recoup after a tiring day at the new job.

  82. A Reader Asks*

    I inherited a part-time employee who is mostly great at his job. He has been doing it for about 1.5 years (I inherited him shortly after he took the job), he is a great guy, and I hear nothing but positive things about him from clients. The problem is communication. The job is kind of a gig-based job that would be considered “fun” – let’s say he’s a llama yoga instructor – so people send in requests when they want to have llama yoga at their events. I post these requests to an online schedule and in a sort of Slack channel, and our arrangement is that he checks the Slack channel once or twice a week and lets me know which ones he can attend. I then communicate with the clients to let them know if he will be there.

    The problem is getting him to let me know in a timely manner. Quite often I have to resort to texting him directly to get a response, which I’d really rather not have to do. I prefer to have all communications in one Slack channel, so it’s easy to go back and see the past communications. Plus, at the moment he is the only llama yoga instructor, but soon I will be hiring for more and I want everyone to be seeing the same things and knowing who responded to what (due to the nature of the job, there’s no way to really assign gigs to anyone. So back when we had multiple instructors, they would check in at their leisure and claim available gigs). I’ve talked to him multiple times about communication and he knows and tries, but I feel like we always relapse back into the same cycle of he doesn’t check, I have to text him days before the event. Otherwise he truly is a great employee who makes the clients happy, treats the llamas well and responsibly, etc.

    The communications factor is so bad that he also often fails to turn in his timesheets. He has acknowledged that this is an issue as well, but part of the problem is that, since this is a “fun” job and he loves doing it, getting paid is not a big deal to him. It’s also not his main source of income (he has a full-time job outside of this), so getting paid is not imperative to him and he has told me that he would happily do it for free. I’ve talked to him several times and followed up many times, explained that it is not only illegal for me to not pay him but I *want* to pay him because he a) deserves it, b) worked for it, and c) I appreciate him!

    What also makes this so difficult is that, since he’s mostly at events and I’m in an office, I don’t actually see him very often. I talk to him directly whenever I do, but it’s not a regular occurrence. I’m really not sure what to do about this any more! Help!

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Can you appeal to his sense of professional pride in giving good service to the clients? Because if you are scrambling at the last minute to confirm, that can cause anxiety to the clients.

    2. WellRed*

      If these gigs are so fun, I guess he’d hate to miss out because he didn’t get back to you within X time. I know you prefer slack but maybe that needs to change?

    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Let him miss out. Seriously, let him fail. Don’t tell the client yes until and unless he answers, and if he doesn’t, hire someone else or cancel. He’ll either shape up or move on.

    4. I strive to Excel*

      For #1, the slack channel – if you’ve got more people coming onboard, you do in fact need him to use a centralized job signup. You could brainstorm with him if there’s something that would work better than Slack, but otherwise the only way to do this and make it stick is that he doesn’t get work until and unless he says that he’s taking the job.

      #2, Timesheets; if he doesn’t care about the income significantly, would it be impossible to switch him to a gig-based style of pay? Go back in time a year or so, figure out how long it takes on average, and then pay based on that? Or do commission-based instead of timesheets? Alternatively – can you look into clock-in/clock-out phone-based software instead of timesheets? Something where you tap a button when you start the job and then tab it again when you stop? I know they exist, but I don’t know what the price range on those is usually like.

  83. Dawn*

    How do you plan an all-employee meeting that is actually beneficial?

    We’re planning an all-employee meeting for about 50 employees who work in offices across our state. We have a mix of technical and administrative staff, with a slant toward technical (think ecological conservation). The way our agenda is shaping up currently, we have a True Colors training (personality typing, similar to DiSC/MBTI/etc.) and as many technical trainings as we can fit into the remaining time. I’m not convinced this is the best use of our time, but I want to present a solution rather than just complaining. I’m not a decision-maker, but I have a voice at the table, and I think folks would be open to hearing alternatives.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Town Hall session? Briefing from management and the state of the business, upcoming contracts, etc?

    2. WellRed*

      I’m unclear. Is everyone participating in the technical training? Even the admins? And why does the company even want an all company meeting? If the training and (I know it can be) the true colors can be done without being in a big room staring at screens together (or whatever training involves) it sounds pointless and tedious. I assume there’s a social aspect being planned as well? And plenty of free food (with accommodations)? Can all this be done at the same time but without dragging everyone together?

    3. Rick Tq*

      I’d drop the woo session and have each office group do a presentation on a significant project from last year. It will give each tech group a chance to brag and will give the administrative staff a broad overview of what is happening in the field.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t know that you can plan a beneficial all-employee meting if this is the agenda, tbh. Training sessions and all staff meetings are two very separate things to me, and unless you’re training *everyone*, I don’t know if that’s a good use of everyone else’s time if they’re not being trained. Is there a reason they’re not just positioning it as a training day for folks?

      True Colours would definitely make me feel like my time is being wasted as an employee, but I recognize that people in leadership love this stuff and sometimes you just have to suck it up.

      I don’t know. I struggle with these kinds of meetings, but broadly speaking if I have to attend one, I want it to cover things that a) can’t be covered via email or smaller team meetings, and b) is something that *everyone* in the company needs to know. We have town halls and they are more like a state of the union coupled with an open mike at the end.

    5. Ginger Cat Lady*

      If you are scrambling for an idea of what to do at the meeting, why even HAVE the meeting?
      Meetings should be held *when there’s a clear purpose* for the meeting. Otherwise it is just a waste of time.

      1. Roland*

        My thoughts exactly. If you’re trying to figure out how to make it useful AFTER deciding to schedule it, that’s way too late.

    6. TPS Reporter*

      in my department we like to have a mixture of topics when we do an all employee meeting (about 150 people). there’s a game portion, some substantive things that everyone needs to know, then some time to spotlight a few people who are doing something interesting. in the game portion we do breakouts (either virtual or in person) so you get time to talk to other people and it’s more active than just sitting there listening the whole time.

    7. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I was at a 150 people 3 day meeting with all of the people in a division with some fairly diverse roles. Plenty of the material was applicable for everyone but the thing that really resonated were the times we got shuffled around to other tables and then talked about accomplishments and best practices so that we knew what the heck was being done by our peers in other locations. And to meet those peers in person.

    8. Rain*

      What are you hoping to get out of this meeting? What problem is the meeting trying to solve?

      If you can’t succinctly explain the goal of the meeting, then you can’t really write a pertinent agenda.

    9. Girasol*

      My old organization used to start all-staff meetings with a “how are is our organization doing?” presentation. Often that would come from finance, where we had some really talented presenters who could take complicated financial results, break them down for laymen, and explain why they mattered to us all. Sometimes the lab would explain what they were looking into and which investigations looked most interesting and promising. HR explained how they compared our salaries to other companies’ and adjusted salary ranges to keep pay competitive. It wasn’t the usual mumbled “…and here on slide 53 it says…” but people saying why they cared about what they did and why the rest of us should too.

    10. EA*

      If you are questioning whether it’s worth it, ask questions instead of making proposals. What are the objectives of the meeting? Expected results? If leadership can clarify the goals, then you can give better feedback and ideas.

    11. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Having the woo/personality type carp would totally put me off the whole day, even with the technical training. Cut that out and put in longer breaks with coffee, so people can chat & network.

  84. Not-So-New Mom (of 2)*

    I have one parent dying. Complicated relationship so sympathy not really needed. How do I focus on work when it seems inconsequential? I need like “how to keep house while drowning” except “keep house” is at work.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Allow yourself grace … and if you can, mention to your boss or coworkers that you’re facing a difficult time where you might feel distracted or might want to dive deep into something that will distract you from those distractions. (If that makes sense) That is, you might want to take on some boring repetitive tasks, or some really big engaging ones, depending on your capacity and need.

      You are likely to have a complicated set of emotions that could will light up at the strangest of moments. Use all of your favorite organizational tools – checklists, to do lists, alarms, whatever, and make sure that you’ve got backfill for anything that might slip a bit.

    2. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      Captain Awkward has a great post about this! Search for her name and #450: How to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed.

      I think all the advice applies to most situations, regardless of whether depression is a factor or not.

    3. WellRed*

      Prioritize what needs doing vs what can wait or be transferred to someone else. If you haven’t yet, do let your manager know (and absolutely tell them you don’t want everyone coming to you with sympathy). Take time to breathe. Take time off.

    4. Too Many Tabs Open*

      Captain Awkward’s “How to Tighten Up Your Game at Work While You’re Depressed” may have some helpful advice; the information applies to many situations where your brain is not letting you give full focus to work. I’ll put link in next post.

      (And congrats on #2!)

    5. Anonymous cat*

      This might not be relevant to your job, but when having personal upheaval, I found work routines helpful.

      Like, I don’t have to make big decisions right now—I just have to follow this flowchart, fill out this form, follow these instructions, etc. That’s all I have to do this morning or afternoon.

      And as far as possible, didn’t make big decisions while so stressed out.

  85. HS science teacher*

    This is SUPER specific, but any high school teachers out there with tips for missing the start of the school year due to maternity leave? I’ll be missing the first 3-4 weeks. How detailed of sub plans did you leave? Did you make a video for your students? Did you do the grading or have your sub grade? Did you try to have the classes establish some community and norms or wait until you were back?

    1. Oddmeister...makin' copies*

      I am a not-quite-certified instructional assistant, former sub, experienced with high schoolers. (I notice no teachers have replied yet.)

      I would say yes to videos as part of your daily lesson plans, but not instead of the sub having authority to teach the lessons. It should feel like a partnership between you and the sub. (I do hope you have just one or two competent subs taking over for you.) Also, yes to community and norms. Having “met” you already via video, you will be able to reinforce what they’ve started. (Even better if you have an IA that can add continuity.)

      1. Oddmeister...makin' copies*

        Oh, also: if your sub is competent, then yes to having the sub grade some assignments. Either completion grading or a *very* simple rubric, depending on your sub’s level of competence/confidence. This will increase your students’ confidence that the assignments matter and they aren’t just marking time.

        (I had a very complicated time last year and -as an IA – had to do some grading and even communication with parents and other staff about IEPs, etc. for about a month. Highly irregular, but we got through it.)

  86. call me wheels*

    Bit of a late comment today so maybe nobody will see but I have had 3 interviews in 3 days and I am exhausted! I’m especially proud of how I handled a question about salary expectations (using advice from AAM and the comment section last week!) I was able to convey that I felt the higher end of the advertised range would be fair considering my experience but I would need to review the full benefit package to really gauge things, without giving an exact number, and they seemed happy enough with this. I think that job actually won’t work out for work/life balance reasons anyway possibly unfortunately but yeah that’s my first time facing the question and I think I did okay :)

    2. Rain*

      I believe in you! I’m sure you did great! lots of good energy coming your way. Please let us know how it goes!

  87. Project managing a mess*

    Not sure where I’m going with this but feel like maybe somebody might have a similar situation. Also going to be vague for reasons of anonymity.

    I work for a small business whose role is basically project managing bespoke high-end teapots which take several years to make. First stage is the design, which we use a well-regarded design agency for, before the teapot is passed to manufacturing, which is done by another contractor. There’s only a handful of us here but, for the sake of this example, you’ll need to know about me and my boss Fergus, who is also the owner of the company.

    We first started working with the design agency about three years ago on a two-year project. First year was fantastic – could not have been happier with them – so engaged them for another two-year project. At the end of year two, first project leaves design agency in a wonderful condition and we feel really proud handing it over to the manufacturer. Second project, which is now about halfway through contract with the design agency, seems to be coming along nicely too.

    Then there’s a change of management at the design agency and things start to go wrong. About three months after that, in a review meeting with them, we start to sense the design is off track a little bit – but also it comes to light that the design itself is trickier than we’d anticipated. Speak to an external consultant who assures us that this is on the lower end of normal, but still normal, don’t worry etc.

    About three months after that, it’s becoming apparent things are quite off. Speak to external consultant again who offers some advice. Pass this onto the design agency but, because their staff turnover is so bad by this point, it’s very unclear if it’s been implemented. Try to probe into it but don’t really get a straight answer – some of the more experienced workers there hint it hasn’t been implemented. Deputy manager there is clearly under a lot of stress and it’s really a coin toss if you’ll get snapped at for trying to probe into these things as well.

    Another three months pass and it’s now clear things are very off. Design agency is giving all sorts of weird and wonderful reasons for this – think “I think it’s just because you’re trying to put the wrong type of tea in this. Perhaps you should go ask around about that.”, and then when we do go ask around about it the general response is “There’s no such thing as the wrong type of tea, that’s not a thing” – and we start to feel they are coming up with excuses for why things aren’t going to plan. As there’s only three months to go, we ask the external consultant if there’s anything they can do to help but they’re all booked up. They offer their advice, which we pass onto the design agency – which they tell us they’ve implemented but we suspect they haven’t. At this point, I want to cut the contract short and take the project somewhere else. But Fergus doesn’t – argues that we’re 7/8 of the way done and it’s too late now – and he’s the boss so we stay.

    We’re now a week left from the contract ending and, honestly, the project is such a mess it actually makes me want to cry. There’s going to be a grovelling chat with the manufacturer where we apologise and plead with them to do extra work – and pray they actually take it because the cost of having to delay manufacturing could be crippling to the business. On the one hand, I feel like we’re to blame because ultimately we were project managing and this project has gone off the rails on our watch. On the other hand, I am so flipping angry with the design agency who I feel have been letting us sleep walk into a mess for the last year. But, then, I think since the change of management, which has led to a high turnover of staff, even they are blissfully unaware of the mess they are making (sat in a meeting with them this afternoon where they basically said “we’ve made what most people would objectively say is an hours worth of progress this week and it IS a really tricky project, so I think you’ll agree we’ve done well” – had to bite my tongue to avoid saying something I would later regret). I’m tempted to end the contract a week early and just try and spend the next week salvaging it as much as I can – but, again, Fergus has said no and is confident he can convince the manufacturing contractor to take the extra work (although I dread the subtext here is “and if they don’t, that’s fine because you, OP, can take this on in addition to your other work to get it across the line…”).

    So, at a loss here. Like I said, not sure what I’m looking for – some advice from people who have been in comparable situations on how they’ve handled it/that it does get better, maybe?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Do you have any claw-back clauses or performance guarantees or something like that in the contract with the design agency?

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      This sucks but it sounds like it’s a Fergus problem. I don’t know that you can solve it.

      I think you’re throwing good money (and time) after bad if you stick this contract out to the end, but it’s not your call. Fergus’s answer that you’re 7/8 of the way through is classic sunk cost fallacy.

    3. Serious Silly Putty*

      Are your conversations with Fergus in writing? Can they be? This is going to be a cluster, so if it’s going to dump on you anyway you want to at least make it clear it’s not your fault. Perhaps…
      “Fergus- I understand you don’t want to cut the contract short with the design firm, and I will defer to you on that. Can we start outlining our course of action for dealing with the faulty design they’re about to hand us? In particular I’m concerned about what we should do with my normal workload if I have to switch gears and salvage this next week.”

  88. Tired of job hunting*

    Looking on Indeed and getting real irked employers can post as “confidential.” (Reasons?) Can we apply the same way? Why not get rid of names on resumes all together! Sigh.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      They mostly do it so their competitors don’t know about it. If a mid-Atlantic llama-grooming chain is looking at opening locations in the northeast, they don’t want their competitors to know that they’re about move into their territory because they posted a whole bunch of job ads.

      1. Tired of job hunting*

        Ah, in that context it makes sense. Bit more confusing when it’s a school or a long established firm doing it…

      2. Serious Silly Putty*

        Is this being handled by a recruitment firm? My (limited) understanding is that they get paid by the lead… but if you read what company it was, you could just apply directly through them and skip the middle man who had paid for the job posting. Then middle man doesn’t get paid.

    3. Dancing Otter*

      Oh, uggh! Back in the days of newspaper want ads, companies used to hide behind blind box ads. I really thought we’d moved past that, along with snail-mailing applications.

      1. Tired of job hunting*

        How convenient for employers. Maybe we should mail in resumes again? (Joking, mostly.)

      2. Nightengale*

        oh yeah

        The year was 1998. I actually got my first full-time job out of college by answering a newspaper ad. I was in MA and the add (in a Boston paper) was “school in Delaware seeks teacher. . . ” No name of school given. I faxed (faxed!) a cover letter and resume and then went to my summer camp job in a third state. I was conducting my job search mainly by calling my mother in the evenings by pay phone (!) and she told me “the school in Delaware wrote back.” My first question was – what is the name of the school???

        (it was a tiny little school too, no idea why they didn’t put the name in the ad. But I worked there for 5 years)

  89. Sindirella*

    Maybe I just need to vent or maybe I’m just being too stodgy, but ugh, help me!
    I work in a little cubicle farm, which is not ideal, but I like my job, so I make the best of it. I have a relatively new co-worker that sits next to me, and she is a loud over-sharer. I know almost every medication she is on; I know many of her allergies; I know so many personal details about her, and she’s only been here about a month.
    I also know that her granddaughter is in an abusive relationship. Within the last few days, the granddaughter is finally moving out, which I’m very happy for this co-worker and her family, but I have a history of my own with abuse and I don’t enjoy hearing all the details of this break-up. I am not a big sharer at work, so I don’t really want to say to this co-worker that I find her stories a little upsetting, but I’m also worried that her stories are going to escalate if I don’t say something now. For now, she’s not too graphic, just generally “he hit her, we’re helping her leave, etc”. But I know from personal experience, this is just the beginning. It’s never a clean easy break to leave an abuser and I just don’t want to hear about this at work. It’s upsetting to me. Should I ask her supervisor (who I have a good relationship with) to maybe ask her to tone it down or reign in this specific sort of discussion?

    1. Sindirella*

      I should also point out that the talk about the break-up isn’t being made to me directly, so I can’t just say I don’t want to talk about this. She’s telling everyone who will listen about this, so it’s more of her just speaking into the void of the room for anyone who will engage with her.

    2. Rain*

      Do you feel comfortable speaking to her before you go to her supervisor? (Many managers want you to addressed the issue with the person directly before they get involved.)

      It doesn’t have to be a big thing – you could just tell her that you couldn’t help but overhearing, and while you’re glad that things are looking up for her granddaughter, she might not be aware of how much voices carry in your office.

      If your office offers phone rooms or other private areas for taking meetings or conversations. you could gently point her to one of those?

      If not, You could just say something along the lines of “With the way the office is laid out, voices carry more than it might seem. These conversations could be upsetting to those who may inadvertently overhear them, so could you please bear that in mind?”

      Or whatever phrasing feels best to you.

      If that doesn’t resolve the issue then I think it’s reasonable to speak to her supervisor.

      1. Sindirella*

        The tricky part here is that our cubicle farm is in a single large room that houses just our department of 12 people. I worry that pointing out it might be upsetting to people would be saying “I know someone in this department would be affected by it”. I also get the impression that she is the type that would just go around to everyone and ask if it bothers them and when everyone says no, she’d decide it bothers me specifically and then want to talk about that. She gives off a real “office mother” vibe.

    3. I strive to Excel*

      Noise-cancelling headphones?

      Apart from that, I feel like talking to your supervisor or to an HR person you can trust to be delicate would be a good move. “I don’t want to hear a messy abusive breakup” is a pretty reasonable boundary.

    4. Brevity*

      Go to her manager. What she’s doing is completely unacceptable and needs to be addressed by a boss.

    5. Serious Silly Putty*

      I think you could reach out to her manager without it being a formal complaint. “Hey, I realized we didn’t properly onboard Newbie into our office protocols. We’re such a uniquely open environment that she’s probably never had to think about how her conversations could negatively affect people that overhear them. Would you mind discussing that with her? I’m afraid if it comes from me it would feel like a personal attack and I definitely don’t want that.”

  90. Rain*

    I am once again asking for work safe Icebreaker questions!

    We do a brief icebreaker at the beginning of our team meeting three times a week. people really love them but I’m running low on ideas.

    (I tried to stay away from things that could get personal like “most irrational fear” or “first celebrity crush”, etc.)

    I’ve gotten great suggestions here in the past so would love to see what other ideas are out there!

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Do you really need an icebreaker if you’ve got a meeting 3x a week? Their value is to get people who are unfamiliar with each other or the setting to all get a chance to talk.

      But I guess if I wanted to have something signal that we were officially gathering, I’d find one of those trivia question of the day calendars and just ask one or two of those to get things rolling and be done with it.

      1. Rain*

        The team really likes them. I suggested going to 1 per week and they protested. I post them at 8am and if I’m late, they start coming up with their own.

        I know there’s a lot of hate for icebreakers, but please trust that my team love them.

        1. Qwerty*

          I used to pick a card from “Imaginiff” or “Loaded Questions” for a team that liked this. Obviously screen the question for appropriateness.

          Since people like coming up with their own, what if you took turns picking the ice breaker? Or have people send you suggestions for the future?

          If you have some examples of good questions, feed them to Bing AI or ChatGPT as examples and ask for more suggestions.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I will say this one would make me somewhat uncomfortable because I don’t like giving people inaccurate information and even having them speculate as to whether something untrue about me might be true. I realise this is a personal idiosyncrasy and it probably isn’t possible to find something that nobody would have a problem with but just as information since Rain is trying to stay away from things that might not work for people and well…it’s possible there is a neurodivergency element to my discomfort and I don’t know if this is something that might be true of others who are neurodivergent.

    3. Cordelia*

      do you have to have all the ideas yourself? If people really do love them, perhaps rotate who is responsible for leading them. Doing it 3 times a week seems a lot though, you must be very used to working with each other if thats how often you are meeting, hasn’t the ice already melted away?

      1. Rain*

        People do provide ideas and I use them, but I’d like to keep a running list of ideas. And AAM has given me some great ones that I hadn’t seen anywhere else.

        1. Cordelia*

          How about doing the Wordle together, or a similar quick puzzle? Or a random quiz question each day

    4. I strive to Excel*

      Suggestion – go to the store and find one of the party games that uses cards. Apples to Apples or Would You Rather or similar. Vet the game to remove any inappropriate ones. At the beginning of each meeting, play one round. Voila, you now have conversation starters for the next 3 years.

    5. English Teacher*

      Oh funny, I just commented above about how annoying I find these activities. I’ve had luck with finding some of those “which of these 9 sloths do you feel like today?” memes. Light-hearted and doesn’t require much creativity.

      1. Rain*

        “What’s your favourite emoji?” and “What’s your favourite meme?” were so popular that we had a person who was on PTO hopped on the call just for that part.

    6. Six Feldspar*

      If you could add the Muppets to one movie, what would it be?
      If you could turn one movie into a musical, what would it be?
      If you could have one type of wild animal as a pet, what would it be?
      Favourite sandwich?
      Weirdest flavour of ice cream/chips/chocolate/etc you’ve seen? (I’m still trying to work out what aldi was doing with their prawn cocktail flavoured chips…)

        1. Rainy*

          I’ve always been fond of stuff like “hot dogs are tacos, yes or no” or my favourite Muppet-related icebreaker is “Which Muppet would be your nemesis and why” or “You can remake one movie as a Muppet movie, retaining one human actor. What movie and which human would you keep?”

          I also really like “Your favourite restaurant names a dish after you. What is it?”

      2. Cordelia*

        Prawn cocktail crisps/chips are one of the most common types in the uk, have been since I was a kid! You’ve only just made me realise that yes, it is a bit odd…

    7. Oddmeister...makin' copies*

      What cool thing have you done that you’re fairly confident no one else here has?

      (I once got to play-test a game with Steve Jackson.)

    9. Serious Silly Putty*

      Give one boring fact about yourself.

      What do you enjoy learning about?

      What are you excited about?

      What is your worst ear worm?

    10. Irish Teacher.*

      The best one I’ve done was “if money, etc was no object, what concert/play/show/sporting event would you go to see and who would you bring with you?”

    11. Roland*

      Rotating question duty could work. Also I imagine there’s like decks of cards you could buy specifically made for this, idk any in particular but I’d open Amazon and try “conversation starter cards” or “work ice breakers” etc and see what you find.

    12. BikeWalkBarb*

      A question on context: Can you do online polls? Menti? Something that lets you recycle a question with a tech twist. Are these meetings online? Are these all 100% fun or is it okay to use questions that get at how people relate to each other and connect to the workplace and organization?

      Now, a few:

      If they were establishing a holiday in your honor, how would people be expected to celebrate it?

      What song is guaranteed to make you want to dance? (don’t say “get up and dance” if you have anyone who wouldn’t be physically able to do that)

      Last thing you ate that made you close your eyes in ecstasy and just savor it.

      If you could be a gold medalist at the summer Olympics in any sport (assume you get all the skill and talent you need), what would it be? (Repeat this seasonally for winter Olympics)

      Bring a picture of your pet or your favorite animal meme and drop it into chat.

      What scent triggers a favorite happy memory?

      Windy days–love them, hate them, don’t care either way?

      A word you love just because it’s beautiful to you, not because of its actual meaning.

      Work-centered ones:

      What makes you feel connected to our success as a team?

      How do you like to be recognized for doing a good job? Publicly in front of everyone, in writing, quietly, not at all, etc.–you could do it as a poll or make it open-ended.

      What was your first job?

      What’s something you learned on your first job that has stuck with you?

  91. NosyNelly*

    I’ve been catching up on some of the articles and posts on AAM that I missed over the past few weeks, and I’m so incredibly curious about who these companies are, or the industries they work for, etc.

    It’s probably common for us to wonder(?)

    I’m looking for a new job and want to avoid all of the same old pitfalls from toxic environments, but I feel like I just never really know until I’m deep in the murky mucks of toxic sludge, and its another “here we go again” situation. AAM helps a LOT in learning to ask the right questions beforehand, but I feel like there is so much unpredictable Jeckyll / Hyde going on in the hiring market.

    Y’all, how do you find a good job that doesn’t drive you to stress leave?

    1. Six Feldspar*

      For me it’s been a process of working out what I DON’T want as much as what I do, working out what I can do for 40hrs a week and leave behind after, and being aware that these things will evolve as my career does.

      Eg I work in a local government as a shark cleaner, and the process of the shark cleaning industry means that almost all permits have to go through us. The pay is lower than the private sector and we have to take any applications we get, but I don’t have to hustle for work and that’s a massive bonus for me.

  92. yogurt*

    Just a rant – is it a rule that fiscal people are ornery everywhere?

    No offense to the wonderful accountants and budget analysts who I’m sure exist. They just never exist where *I* work! Every fiscal person I’ve worked at has been opaque about processes, they never – literally never – offer the benefit of the doubt, are quick to read negative tones into emails and also seem to be passive aggressive by default! Jesus!!!!!!!

    I am playing the bridge between two fiscal folks to get a report out and they are taking it out on me as if I have any idea WTF they are talking about (which I don’t! It’s weird budget stuff that makes no sense to me!). I so badly want to write in all caps THIS IS NOT MY JOB. This is *your* job. We specifically don’t allow people at my level to have anything to do with money reporting or account management so why why why are you being so mean TO ME just because I’m trying to help you communicate so we don’t get this grant taken away??

    Also, we literally just did this same exact report like not that long ago and somehow you’ve both forgotten how to do it in that time!?! UGH. Rant over. I pray every day that one day I’ll have a buddy in fiscal who is actually a nice human being. I’m manifesting it.

    1. Serious Silly Putty*

      Similarly, the worst part of my job was when I I had to try to get anything done through HR. It was so horrible! But then there was massive turnover and now they really feel like an ally! One person even called ME to apologize for their (slight) delay!

      So miracles can happens and I share your manifestation of good finance people. Also trying to complete a grande when you don’t have the financial info you need sucks and I feel you on that. Last year our biggest grant of the year was due three weeks after our ED left. Historically she always handled the finances/forms and I did the writing. A week before the grant is due I have to text her to ask how we get [fiscal sponsor budget form] done. Her reply: “Fergus in Finance has to do that. I try to send it to him a month in advance so I have time to keep reminding him about it.”
      Yeah that should have been something you mentioned before you left.

  93. A Cat May Look at a King*

    My supervisor has completely changed my job from what I have been doing for almost a decade. My previous primary function is now distributed elsewhere, and I have the important job of emailing people about the task when my boss says that I can. He has ordered me not to help my coworkers with tasks that were previously under my purview.

    I have substantially less work than I previously did, but it’s all work that I haven’t done before, work I have to spend a lot of time figuring out to do, and work that Boss micromanages to the nth degree. Every project that I was good at (and had been repeatedly recognized for), the work I was passionate about, and the tasks that I was originally hired to do, have been reallocated to other employees who are not particularly enthusiastic about doing them.

    Morale is low. The troops don’t understand why their jobs have changed so substantially that they are unrecognizable. Before this boss took over, I thought I would work here until I retired. Now I am considering leaving my industry because he has squashed any enthusiasm I had for this work.

    How do I cope when the career I worked so hard to obtain has become decidedly not worth it? From what I can tell, my boss isn’t doing anything illegal. We aren’t unionized and this is an at will state. He can change my job based on differing philosophies on work, and his philosophy appears to be that everyone in the department should do work they are terrible at instead of the work they enjoy and excel at.

    2. Dancing Otter*

      Unless this is a temporary cross-training exercise (Don’t laugh; I had a boss do it just this badly once.), I agree that you should job search before he pushes you out.

      But why leave the industry because of one bad manager? There must be other companies, aren’t there?

      1. A Cat May Look at a King*

        This is a nonprofit industry that banks on its employees being passionate about the work. It’s industry standard to have a terrible schedule, mediocre pay, and have to worry about things like funding and having trouble taking your PTO. Basically, if you aren’t passionate about the work, it turns into a low paying job that asks for a deep emotional commitment, a lot of work, and a lot of working on nights and weekends. It feels not worth it right now.

        There are also tasks that were solidly in the “take it or leave it” category that I am competent at, but they have been subject to such intense micromanagement that I am flinching from doing them. And those make up an awful lot of the job listings at similar companies.

    3. Rain*

      I know it’s hard because you had a job that you loved and now you don’t and you want the job to go back to being the one you loved.

      But it doesn’t sound like that’s going to happen (at least not as long as you have your current boss, but if that seems like something that might change that’s worth thinking about).

      I agree that it’s probably time to job hunt. You don’t have to do it aggressively and you’re in a position where you don’t have to take the first thing that comes along, but there’s no reason to sit and be unhappy about your job without at least looking at what else is out there.

      Good luck!

    4. The Unionizer Bunny*

      employees who are not particularly enthusiastic about doing them.

      Morale is low. The troops don’t understand why their jobs have changed so substantially that they are unrecognizable.

      It sounds like he might have been brought on to quiet-fire the lot of you. Make the work environment so uncomfortable that you all quit instead of having to be fired.

      It also sounds like he’s laying the foundation for a team that has nothing to lose :)

      my boss isn’t doing anything illegal. We aren’t unionized and this is an at will state. He can change my job based on differing philosophies on work,

      It sounds like the main problems are “he can fire you for any reason and he can completely change your job at his whim”. So why not seek a contract that will remove both those problems?

      At-will doesn’t prevent you from unionizing. So do it! If he’s making everyone unhappy, they will be more receptive now than at any other time. (The best organizer is an awful boss.)

      Research which national unions frequently represent people in your line of work. (If you work for a chain, look up whether people in other states have already unionized, and who represented them.) Contact them asking if they can help. As the person on the inside, though, you have the best information on what your coworkers care about, and it’s important to stress this when inoculating your coworkers against management’s anti-union campaign: the union isn’t “an outside group”, it’s literally you and your coworkers, all voting together. (See “rank-and-file union”.) If you all form a union and the boss begins to smirk as he sits down at the bargaining table, knowing he has an experienced lawyer on his side and you don’t, that’s when you ask the union that’s been doing this for decades to come in and represent your interests.

      Clauses to prevent the employer from firing anyone without “good cause”, and give the union a seat at the table when the employer tries to declare that they have good cause, are common. Employers will try to say “unions are bad because if you want to move your desk the union won’t let you do that, you have to wait three days for a dedicated desk-mover to do it for you”, but if you don’t want that, just tell the negotiator you want the standard wording about union members not being forced to do tasks outside their specific job description, so you still retain the right to do other things if you need to.

      In case you can’t find a local union to teach you about this, here’s a good resource for rank-and-file unionizing:
      https://labornotes.org/2024/04/free-download-shawn-fains-other-bible-troublemakers-handbook

  94. Phoebe*

    Is there a good way to handle “my current manager keeps putting immediate networking invitations and massive feedback dumps into the same conversation and I can’t do Networking Persona right after the feedback dump”? I can’t really brace for it because the feedback comes out of the blue as far as I’m concerned. I’ll say something like “I’m frustrated with our procedure for doing X” or “I have some questions about the Y file”. He’ll call me and go on a 30-to-60-minute monologue (I do mean monologue, the only way to get a word in before Designated Question Time is to basically shout over him until he stops talking), and in the course of that he’ll at least sort of answer my question, but he’ll also discuss any issues he’s been having with my work lately, talk about what he thinks I should do with my career, and sometimes hand out networking invitations – immediate ones, like within the next half-hour. I can’t switch gears from “handling critique on my work and career plans in a work-appropriate way” to “networking mode” that fast. Anyone have advice?

    1. Rain*

      Ugh, that sounds so frustrating!

      Can you ask him if you can set up a different standing meeting to provide feedback? And let him know that it’s hard for you to contact switch so you’d like to keep the two meetings separate?

      Or is that the kind of thing where he’ll say yes and then just steamroll you anyway?

    2. frustrations*

      Sorry this is off topic, but what are “networking invitations” in this context?

      But I did once have a boss who when I expressed any kind of frustration – usually in the context of something we might be meeting about, I never emailed just to say I am frustrated about x – they would go off on all their own work frustrations, as if they understood my usually mild comments as an opportunity for us to compete on who was the most frustrated. This in itself was frustrating and totally unproductive.

    3. BikeWalkBarb*

      This sounds really frustrating!

      Would it help if you wrote down a note about the networking invitation and didn’t try to process it at all in the moment? Don’t try to switch personas in the middle of the firehose. Then follow up later when you can switch gears to say, “You mentioned this networking thingy. Can you tell me more?” If you gave yourself even 5 minutes after the monologue to catch your breath and reset, then called back or sent an email, would that help?

      I remember reading someone’s advice (here? Carolyn Hax?) about turning annoying repetitious comments into a personal game of bingo. If you made a chart of the topics he brings up and checked them off as they pour out of the phone, would the entertainment value help? It creates distance between you personally and what he’s saying. “Yep, there’s the fly-by critique. Yep, there’s the career advice.” Or making a list that’s like a grocery list in format, not a serious action item list.

      With the way you’re asking I’m guessing you don’t want to take a very direct approach or you think it won’t work. “I’d like to talk about our communication pattern and address a pattern that I’m finding challenging. When I contact you with a question about X, you often bring in several other topics, from feedback on my performance to career advice to a networking invitation. That happened yesterday when I asked about Z, and last week with the M question. That’s a lot to get all at once when I’m really trying to stay on task and complete the X step to meet the project deadline. Can we identify those topics for a separate conversation so I can stay focused on what I need to get this done the way you want it, and you can give me the download on the other topics when I know that’s what we’re going to be talking about?” If you make the grocery-item list in a couple of meetings you’d have really specific examples if he claims this isn’t happening. “I wanted to keep track of what we covered in that call. Here’s my list from Tuesday. You can see the variety of topics. It was a lot for me.”

      The less direct approaches–

      The advice from Rain to set up standing meetings is good even if they feel somewhat the same. Boxing that with an agenda you prepare of things you want to cover so you come in with a structure is worth trying. “I have 7 things I need to cover with you and we only have 25 minutes so that’s about 3 minutes per item. I have a hard stop for another meeting immediately after” (which can totally be with yourself; block it on your calendar so it shows with an appropriate subject).

      I also wonder about setting a meeting with the explicit purpose of asking for his career advice since he’s throwing out a lot of opinions. Do you get any kind of performance review? Can you request a meeting saying “In anticipation of my performance review I’d like to get your take on what the opportunities are and how I can prepare for them”? I’m wondering if he just needs to get that out of his system and know that you’re really listening and benefiting from his vast understanding of absolutely everything.

      What’s your work context? You say he calls you–video or voice? Are you teleworking or in the same building? I’m thinking of the visual cues if you’re on video and can hold up your hand to indicate a request for a pause, look down and be making notes–some nonverbal communication that it’s going by too fast and you’re really trying to keep up.

      In really dire straits if you’re on a call it would be such a shame if your headset or wifi connection or whatever started giving you fits, you’re saying in a broken-up way “I…can’t…he—….you….” and it’s a shame you lost the connection and had to email him that you’re having a tech issue and would appreciate him answering the question about the Y file via email. I wouldn’t do this often but hey, if you’re really drowning….

      And if you can see on voice ID that it’s him calling right after you sent an email with a question I bet that’s a really good time to have stepped away for a minute to go to the bathroom or refill your coffee.

      It also sounds as if–and you’ve already thought of this–you don’t want to ask open-ended questions or make general statements of frustration to this person *at all*. Anything you can do to avoid opening the door to a complete file download from his brain will help.

      This is a reminder to me as a supervisor that I shouldn’t accidentally derail conversations with my team. “Hey, while I’ve got you, there’s this other thing” isn’t a gift to the other person unless it’s directly relevant. I do try to be self-aware enough to know that their story isn’t an invitation for my story, but my brain does produce a lot of popcorn that I may share at times.

  95. Spacedog*

    Last year, I connected with a hiring manager in my network for a company I have been interested in working for. We had a great meeting and he encouraged me to apply for an open position on his team and that he would make sure to let the team know about me. However, after I did, he reached out to me to let me know — confidentially — that the recruiter staffing for the job told him that she had met with me in the past. He insinuated without saying anything that she did not have good things to say about me and also insinuated that I would not be considered for a role there.

    I don’t recall ever speaking with the recruiter, and I always conduct myself professionally when I meet with recruiters, so I’m floored and heartbroken by this. Something about getting negative reviews – and being BLOCKED — by someone that I hadn’t even really registered, and certainly whatever conversation we had didn’t stand out as extraordinary (I am aware enough to know when it doesn’t go well). I actually reached out to the recruiter, who was incredibly rude (I did not mention the heads’ up from the hiring manager).

    So, anyhow, a year later, there is another role open at that company that looks so interesting! However, I feel this weird shame around my whole application process there, not even knowing what it was that was so horrible about me that the recruiter decided to blacklist me internally. I’m professional, not a real dramatic type person, and it all has been really getting at me.

    I’d like to apply but also I realize that I have an enemy in recruiting that I don’t even know how I made. I’d love any suggestions.

    1. Rainy*

      Are you sure that recruiter still works there? Do you know that they’ll be in charge of the process for that job? If the company is large, there are probably at least a few different recruiters.

      I’m also wondering–are you sure you *did* speak to that recruiter previously? If you don’t remember and you don’t have any records of speaking with that recruiter around the time you supposedly grievously offended her, I think I’d be forced to wonder if you’re even the person she’s actually mad at or if you just have a similar name or something.

      1. Spacedog*

        I looked her up on LinkedIn and she is indeed still there (I had hoped she’d moved on). In fact, she was promoted.

        It’s entirely plausible that I met with her at some point earlier, because I meet a lot of people in my industry (I’m in UX) but other than the horrible meeting I had with her after connecting with the hiring manager, I literally have no recollection of her.

        I tend to remember the great interviews I have that fill me with hope (and didn’t get the job anyhow). Or, I remember the interviews I have where I say something stupid (I’m hyper ruminative and self-critical). I remember the bad interviews where there is no chemistry or when people are rude or, rarely, cruel.

        But otherwise, there is a whole neutral sea of interviews that fall into a whole forgettable space of “met them, nothing happened”. So, if I indeed did meet with this woman in the past (again, possible) I can’t imagine that there was anything exceptionally horrible that I said that would have made her put me on a company blacklist.

        : (

        1. Rain*

          I’m really sorry but I think that as long as that recruiter who – rightly or not – seems to think poorly of you is there, you’re going to have a very tough time getting your foot in the door.

          1. Spacedog*

            Its true, and I suppose that applying and even thinking about it isn’t great for my mental health.

            It’s lame how much I’ve been thinking about this….again.

    2. I should really pick a name*

      Did you let the hiring manager know that the recruiter seemed to be mistaken about who you were?

      1. Spacedog*

        I actually did let the hiring manager know that I wasn’t aware of any conflict, etc, but of course the conversation really faded off after that. Honestly, I wish he wouldn’t have said anything in the first place.

        It bugs me, in and oversized way. I try to be very conscious about my interactions with folks, especially in an interview context, and now that there is another role open it’s bugging me again in a very junior high way.

    3. kalli*

      It’s still worth a shot, although I’d mention in your cover letter something about the hiring manager you did get on with and that you were confident you’d work really well with the company after meeting with him.

      There is a chance that the recruiter might have been moved to a position where they have less say, or won’t be dealing directly with the team for this new position as well.

  96. Noy*

    I need some advice.
    I am a temporal receptionist whose contract ends at the end of the month. My boss wants to keep me but the staff is full (someone needs to quit or be fired in order to hire me), so he recommended me to try luck at certain hotel whose boss is his friend, though he warned me it was just an interview, he promised nothing.
    I don’t know if there was a misunderstanding or what, but apparently the hotel I interviewed with wants me to join them as soon as my current contract ends, I’m the only candidate they are interviewing and even already changed the workers’ work hours to accomodate my arrival at the beginning of September!?
    I am getting cold feet (the commutee is really bad, I would work nights, I actually had planned to take some vacation after this temporal job, and I know a coworker is planning his leave), but I am feeling a bit scared about the possibility that my current boss “promised” that I was going to work at the second hotel (I guess assuming I was desperate for another job) and I may burn a bridge with him and/or the second hotel if I refuse the second job now…

    1. Cordelia*

      you’re allowed to decline a job that is offered to you if it turns out not to meet your needs. Your current boss doesn’t get to promise you to other people, and if he’s a reasonable person he’ll understand that the job turned out not to be right for you.
      If you’re in desperate need of the job and you don’t have alternatives that’s different, but otherwise you can just politely thank everyone for their time and say that on thinking it over, the job isn’t going to be right for you. Would you take it if it wasn’t nights? Maybe you could negotiate that. Otherwise, you can say that you hadn’t realised this was night work, and that’s not something you are looking for.
      you don’t have to take a job you don’t want because other people have been over enthusiastic about you! It’s a credit to you and your skills that they want you, but you have to do what’s best for you, you don’t owe anyone anything in this situation

      1. Noy*

        I kept thinking about this, including whether I would feel better if I had no nights, or other certain conditions… and realized that I was only considering the position because I did not want to displease my boss / the hotel. Whatever the reason(s), I just do not want to work there. Thank you so much for your answer, it really helped me :)

    2. BikeWalkBarb*

      I hear your concern about maintaining a good relationship with the current boss. Be sure to thank him for the referral and let him know why it isn’t a fit–specifically the night hours and commute–and that you welcome any other leads he may have. That way if he has another opportunity that wouldn’t have those barriers he won’t hold back from suggesting you.

      If he does suggest any other positions follow up with him afterwards to thank him and let him know the outcomes on those too. He sounds like he wants to support your success. This is a way of showing him you appreciate the leads and subtly reminding him that he thought you were a good employee worth recommending.

      I’m thinking of the people I’ve worked with over the years. The ones who let me know what was going on with them were the ones I thought of when I heard of a new opportunity that might fit. The ones (interns in particular) who moved on and barely said thank you didn’t get any more helpful leads. May sound kind of shallow, but if your personal email address doesn’t autofill in my email system because I haven’t heard from you then I’m less likely to dredge a name out of memory.

      1. Noy*

        I really wish I’d known this networking tip before, as I have always been the kind of intern/ex-employee who moved on and barely reached out again (due to shyness and being busy I guess), but I will immediately put into practice your advice, thank you so much :)

    3. Noy*

      Quick update: they suddenly downgraded the terms of the offer in terms of title, pay and duration. I do not know when they would have told me, as they only told me once I had reached out to them (to reject their offer, but before I could do so). I guess it is a dodget bullet, but it kind of stings nonetheless

  97. Candi*

    Something today reminded me of an article I read a bit ago, and how annoyed I was at the author’s bias.

    It was one of the common discussions of remote vs in office discussions, and the author went on (and on) about how working remote was leaving money on the table.

    They presented valid statistics that currently in-office workers make approximately 20%-ish more than remote workers, on average, and talked a lot about how much more money those “inexperienced in the work world” could make if they could just see sense.

    My opinion was, take what he said and flip it:

    In-office is so despised that employers have to pay more to get people to do it.

    Meanwhile remote is so valued, people will do the same work for less pay to do it from their homes.

    To me, “kids these days” aren’t working from home due to inexperience of how the work world works; they’re working from home because they know what to value.

    1. kalli*

      And that 20% is unlikely to cover the cost of commuting, buying food (even if you bring lunch it can work out more expensive than how one might eat if they don’t have to take it and have to keep it edible, everything from a lunchbox or sandwich bags or fancy non-plastic food wraps to thermal drink containers and ice packs, freezer bags etc. even if once you get to work you have access to refrigeration and a reliably uncontaminated method of reheating, a source of water, a vending machine or whatever else to refresh hydration supplies during the day) and a sufficiently varied work wardrobe. IIRC the average cost of just commuting in the US is around $8500, so one has to earn maybe $50k for all that to break even at a conservative estimate ($8500+roughly extra $5 a day for food and $200 for supplies), so an entry level office worker on $18/hr/$36500 a year would not be breaking even, especially if their benefits weren’t covering all their needs.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        20% seems very high. Some save nothing at all if their journey was short or by bike and their office had casual clothing but with wfh their utilities increased – wifi upgrade, a/c. Also a major expense if they need a larger home with an office.

        So I’d expect it to average out at a bit over 5%, but maybe increasing to 10% if the hourly rate includes commuting and time saved by being able to do laundry and other household chores.

    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I had expected that remote workers tend to be more experienced – so they don’t need in-office learning/ mentoring – and higher paid – so they can afford homes with a separate office per worker, rather than crammed into a small apartment with roomies and inadequate wifi.

      Was the author including relatively low-paid sectors such as retail & food service, where wfh is not possible? Comparing them to office workers would not be useful as a measure of office/wfh pay.

      I’ve read that remote jobs tend to get more applications than office jobs because there are more people who want to work remotely than there are remote jobs. So market forces could make office jobs more highly paid where there is this choice. Maybe the author was comparing workers with the same experience & qualifications and found that employers who wanted in-office staff had to pay this premium

  98. I should really pick a name*

    For people in the US who get paid parental leave, and get time beyond FMLA, how much time do you get and what percentage of your regular pay do you get?

    Just looking for numbers, not comparisons to other countries.

  99. sauft krank*

    I know I’m late to comment. Honestly, I don’t care if no one reads this, I just am so proud. I had a phone screen interview on Thursday. My interviewer said I was such a strong candidate that I was a “10 out of 10” and “made her day!”

    I am excited for the job. It sounds like there are some…imperfections, but it’s something I can do, and am excited to do.

    I know it’s still not a guarantee. I’m just so happy about the interviewing skills I’ve learned by reading AAM (since 2015!), that I know the right thing will come along. I’m struggling to not fall into depression, so just her being excited about me, really made me feel whole.

    1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      I could feel your joy and sense of wholeness all through your words. It was really uplifting to me to read this morning. Thank you for sharing your good news, and may this feeling settle into your bones and stay.

  100. Daniel*

    Is it normal to stack rank employees post layoff?

    My company had layoffs about 3 months ago and the bottom 15-20% was cut. But now management is being asked to rank the remaining employees again with a strict distribution.

    Are we gearing up for another layoff?

  101. S*

    Re: pumping – that comes across as TMI. How about “I’m busy now.” or “I can’t be disturbed for the next half an hour.”

  102. bradc*

    I’m looking through the site archives now, but I’m looking for advice for my daughter, a new college graduate, who is trying to write a good resume to find a job that uses her degree.

    (She has an art degree, so her long-term goal is to get into illustration, and we know that is more portfolio-focused; in the meanwhile we’re looking for a more general entry-level “office” job, rather than going back into retail.)

    Her current version lists her new degree, but dedicates more space to the handful of summer jobs she’s held, none of which were related to her desired career field.

    How do you write a resume highlighting her relevant skills and (academic) experience, when none of her job experience is office-related?

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