open thread – August 2, 2024

by Alison Green on August 2, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 897 comments }

{ 897 comments… read them below }

  1. roadrunner*

    In the past, I’ve always given my two weeks notice on a Monday, with my last day being Friday of the following week. A recent situation has made me wonder about the logistics of giving notice in the middle of the week. Would you expect your last day be exactly two weeks away (e.g. Wednesday), or would it still be Friday (e.g. slightly more than two weeks)? Or does it pretty much always make sense to wait to give notice until a Monday?

    The situation is: I’m about to get an offer that may come in around mid-week, which I anticipate accepting. My manager is currently doing strategic planning for a large project I’m involved in–allocating hours and resources, planning budget–and telling her as soon as possible would allow her to pivot her planning to account for my departure before making a bunch of commitments that could be difficult to fix.

    I’m pretty burnt out and looking forward to some down time between jobs, and in my heart, if I give notice a little early, I want to leave a little early as well. I don’t want to burn bridges over a day or two of work, though, and I suspect the more conventional choice is for your last day to be a Friday.

    1. kiwiii*

      I have set my last day for a Wednesday twice, because it honestly seems like the easiest way to get a couple off days between jobs without losing a full week of pay — once, they asked me to stay through Friday, the other time they were fine with Wednesday. I don’t think there’s any harm in asking.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Yeah this. The only reason I would give notice midweek and end on a Friday is if I were purposely giving a lot of notice, i.e. four weeks or more.

      2. Mobius 1*

        I’ve set my last day as a Friday once, but less because it was a Friday than because it was the first of the month (resume architecture, if you will).

        1. Tree*

          I just did this. My last day is today. I wanted the vacation accrual for July paid out and that my time here looks like a full year on Lunkedin.

    2. OrdinaryJoe*

      Is two weeks actually required at your job? I’m wondering if you can do some prep work now, assuming you haven’t already done so, and give your notice on say … Tuesday or Wednesday and still make it the following Friday, so roughly 7-8 days workdays instead of 10. I think most employers would understand that and appreciate the clean break on a Friday for payroll.

      1. talos*

        Be careful with this! My old company marks you as not eligible for rehire/gives you bad references if you don’t give them 10 business days (I think Monday-Friday is fine, but wednesday-Friday would definitely not be).

      2. BetsCounts*

        Two weeks is such standard convention across the US that I would be extremely leery of giving any less than that, regardless of adding a little extra work for the payroll department

    3. RMNPgirl*

      At my current job, if you don’t give a full two weeks notice you don’t get your PTO bank paid out when you leave. That means if you’re going to leave on a Friday then you have to give notice at least exactly two weeks earlier, on a Friday. So for example if a last day was going to be August 16th, notice would have to be given today on the 2nd and not on Monday the 5th.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I would make sure that them not paying out PTO if you don’t give a full 2 weeks is aligned with the law. Many states have some sort of regulation about PTO payout.

        1. M2*

          Not giving 2 weeks notice (unless you’re in a bad situation) will usually burn the bridge unless it is customary to walk you out on the day you give notice.

          It isn’t about finding the next person but to get everything in order, find coverage, and set everything up.

          Just ask your next role to start later so you have time between jobs. Most places understand and will give you time! I have also had people given price on a W and ask to work through that Friday if the 2 weeks notice and I’m fine with that? Whatever works for them.

          I have called references and had a couple say the candidate left before their two week notice or was a great employee until they gave notice then they phoned it in and didn’t do much during those two weeks. I didn’t end up hiring them. I also ask references about notice period because the kind of work we do we need a handover/ get things in order . So, not saying you have to go above and beyond your last two weeks but be aware that sometimes if you slack off it will come back around in references.

          1. Dee*

            Health insurance might also be a consideration. Will you and/or your dependents have a coverage gap that needs to be considered before insurance from the new job kicks in?

    4. Parcae*

      I don’t see any risk of burning bridges. Let’s say you give notice on Wednesday and propose your last day will be exactly two weeks away. There are basically two outcomes: your manager accepts and you get the days off you wanted, or your manager balks and insists that you finish out the week, resulting in two and a half weeks of notice.

      Now, your manager can’t *make* you work those extra days, but you might reasonably decide that you’d rather work them than start a fight over it. The critical part is that you’d be no worse off than if you waited until Monday to officially give notice. Unless your manager is a loon, she’s not going to throw a fit just because you proposed your last day would be a Wednesday. So why not try it and see how it goes?

      1. Arrietty*

        The only risk I can see is if HR has a policy (like not paying out PTO for less than 2 full weeks) but the manager isn’t aware of it, so accepts the shorter notice and then LW gets a nasty shock.

        1. Parcae*

          Even then, OP isn’t asking to actually give less than two weeks notice. They just want to give notice that doesn’t correspond to a M-F schedule. I suppose there could be a policy around paying out PTO that was tied to working out a full two-week pay period or something, but I would expect something like that to be spelled out in a employee handbook or similar.

    5. Nebula*

      As is often pointed out on this site, employers need to be prepared for employees to leave, and to leave at times which might be inconvenient. Give notice when you want to – it may be that your manager would like you to work through to the Friday, and you can consider whether you want to do that, it might be that she doesn’t care at all. If it’s a big project, I can’t see that a day or two extra on your end would make a huge amount of difference to be honest.

      Why do you think this would risk you burning bridges? Is this just a fear about conventional etiquette on your part, or has your manager/company behaved badly towards people leaving in the past? If it’s the former, I don’t think you need to worry, if it’s the latter then they’re the ones who are being unreasonable, not you.

    6. Alex*

      There’s no rule that your last day has to be on a Friday. Just give two weeks’ notice on whatever day you want and have it be two weeks’ from that. I’ve done it that way before.

    7. Bast*

      If I gave my notice on Wednesday (let’s take Wed 8/7 as an example), I would typically expect my last day of working to be Wed, 8/21. Whether I then immediately start New Job on 8/22 or give myself a few extra days in between and start on 8/26 would remain to be seen depending on my financial situation at the time and my mental state. I have had times where I really could not afford to have any unpaid days off, and times where a couple of extra days off wouldn’t make or break me. I’m not sure I’d work out the extra Thursday and Friday unless I was at a place I was leaving on decent terms and that really needed me. If I knew we had a big project or deadline coming up and I really felt the team needed me, *maybe* I’d work out the extra 2 days, but in most cases I would not. I gave my 2 weeks. I’ve done what is expected. They likely would not extend the same courtesy if I were being let go, so I wouldn’t feel badly about giving the standard 2 weeks and not a day more.

      1. Cj*

        if I gave notice on a Wednesday, I would consider my last day to be on a Tuesday. that would be the same as giving notice on a Monday and your last day being on a Friday.

        unless your company has some weird rule like the poster that said their company won’t pay out your PTO unless you give your notice on Friday and your last day be Friday 2 weeks later. I would consider giving notice at 8:00 on a Monday and having Friday of the next week to be 10 full business days of notice, so I think their role is kind of strange.

        1. Kay*

          I think many would consider that a day short. Unless you were able to give notice first thing on Monday, and everyone agreed it was okay to make the following Friday your last day, many people would run into issues.

          1. allathian*

            No logic in that. If you give notice at 8 am on a Wednesday and your last day is the Wednesday two weeks later, you’ve worked 11 days.

            But then I’m in Finland and the standard notice period is a calendar month. For some jobs it’s even longer than that. This is because you’re generally expected to use up any accrued PTO before you leave unless you switch from one government agency to another.

    8. I strive to Excel*

      When you accept your notice, could you build in a week delay? Tell your new job you can start in 3 weeks, give your current workplace 2? If you’re feeling a lot of burnout it might be worthwhile to take a break.

    9. Bunny Girl*

      Honestly it’s depending on the job and the work flow of my role for when I give notice. One job I left, Fridays were always pretty dead and we basically reset each week so it made more sense for my last day to be Thursday instead of Friday, so I gave my notice on a Thursday.

      Another job I had some flexibility and it was right before the holidays so I technically gave something like two and a half weeks notice because I wanted to finish out a full week with them. They were also a lovely work place and I wanted to give them as much time as possible. The one before I couldn’t have cared less about.

    10. Picard*

      I recently gave notice and I’m leaving midweek so that I have time off in between. Go for it!

    11. PotatoRock*

      I think it’s totally fine for your last day to be a Wednesday (2 weeks from when you give notice). I have done that before, although for me going to Wednesday made it an “end of calendar month” thing so it made other logistics easy. If you have a good relationship with your boss I think you could even float making your last day the earlier Friday (1.5 weeks) but I would only do that if you say explicitly you’re happy to do two full weeks, and trust your boss to tell you if there’s a problem with 1.5

    12. Mad Harry Crewe*

      You’re overthinking it. There is nothing wrong with setting your last day to be midweek. Give notice when it is convenient. Set your last day two weeks later. Be free.

    13. Miette*

      Think of it not as two weeks but 10 business days, so if the Wednesday you give notice is Day 1, Day 10 is a Tuesday. If you’re giving them until that second Wednesday, they’ve got nothing to complain about.

    14. Maotseduck*

      I think it depends on how much you have to transition. My last job, I got the offer midweek and ended up giving a week and a half notice because the new job wanted me to start asap. It ended up being perfectly fine because my team was low on work and helping some related teams. In my case it made sense.
      Could you talk to your supervisor (once you get the offer but before you confirm start date) and see if they’d be ok with less?

      1. SJ Coffee Adict*

        I just left my job and gave 5 business days notice. I gave notice on a Tuesday and worked into the Tuesday 2 weeks later. it was fine

    15. Mad Scientist*

      Your last day definitely does not need to be a Friday. The last time I left a job, my last day was on a Thursday. Recently, my intern decided she wanted her last day to be on a Tuesday, which everyone was fine with (although I did double check that she knew it was a Tuesday when she told me the date). I’ve seen coworkers leave on pretty much any day of the week except Monday.

      FWIW, you mention that you usually give 2 weeks notice on a Monday with your last day being a Friday, but that isn’t technically a full 2 weeks. I’d try to give notice on a Friday if I wanted my last day to be on a Friday as well. But I get that Monday morning is “close enough” for most people.

    16. Phlox*

      I gave my notice for a Thursday – in part because it was the last day of a our payroll period and that felt like a nice gift for the operations/payroll staffer, and starting the first weekend off early felt like a such a good gift to myself. It was nice to transition into my time off (I quit wtihout another job lined up) with a weekday off. So for burnout, I would recommend considering what would make you feel great about your down time between jobs and what you need to head into the new job feeling a bit better.

    17. Vicki B*

      I’ve always given notice as soon as I accepted the new job. I’ve never paid attention to the day of the week.

      I’ve also often set the start of the new job out 3 weeks, not two, to give me a week between to decompress.

    18. GivingNotice*

      I have given notice midweek because I prefer to give notice directly to a boss. I have generally started by offering 2 weeks including the current day if I give notice in the morning or starting the next day if it’s late in the day. I have had some folks ask me to finish out that last week (so 2 weeks + K days) and when I can I’ll accommodate it. However, if doing so is the difference between having some time off between jobs vs not having it I may stand firm, especially if I know it’s likely I’ll be able to take time off early in my tenure at the new job. Your mileage may vary, of course.

  2. Wren*

    I have a question about how to phrase a self-publishing project on my resume, as part of explaining what I was doing for the past year.

    I haven’t had a job in a few years, but I have volunteer experience that relates to jobs and volunteer gigs I would apply to (mostly bookstore and similar retail jobs, and museum/library volunteering). A year ago I moved to a new city, and now I’m moving again. Since I knew I’d only be here for a year, instead of volunteering I spent my time creating a tarot deck, writing the book to go with it, and selling them online. I’d have made money through this and can site sales figures, either dollar amounts or number of items sold. I’m just not sure how to phrase this on a resume, especially since I didn’t do a Kickstarter or anything like that. I know usually you wouldn’t put this on a resume, but this is for bookstores, retail, and volunteer gigs, so I’m mostly concerned about explaining the year-long gap. Maybe something like, “Created and self-published a card deck and book set that has sold X number of copies”?

    1. Hyaline*

      Would this project have anything to do with the jobs you’re applying for? Because, yes, if design, online marketing, writing, other skills that would relate to the work, I’d probably do my best to highlight those skills in listing the project on the resume. But if it’s only to explain the gap, I’m not as sure–perhaps the cover letter would be a better place to insert that? “After taking a year to design and market my own tarot deck, I feel especially well-positioned to help clients at Tarot and More” or “I recently spent a year creating and marketing an original book package product online, so am familiar with the online retail spaces BooksBooksBooks may utilize.”

      1. Wren*

        In my experience, this sort of thing would be interesting to interviewers at bookstores, at least the ones I’ve worked at before. But this makes me think, perhaos I could include the software it taught me—Photoship, InDesign , etc. As for cover letters, most retail and volunteer gigs don’t want them.

        1. Hyaline*

          Yeah, I think if overall anything gives you space to show “I am uniquely suited to this job” then finding a home for it on the resume makes sense. I just wouldn’t include it if you were only using it to explain the gap–but since there’s a way to spin it as very much related to the work/customer base/industry, I think it makes sense.

    2. Paint N Drip*

      I think your proposed solution is nice, it provides a ‘this is what I was doing’ explanation. Sounds like a cool project! If you produced it under a different name, be sure to note that – if you plan to continue with related one-off projects like this, you could even create a business name (not like you must open an LLC or anything, but just Wren Artworks or Songbird Tarot or whatever) and consider this project one ‘job’ and any future projects can be listed as well. When your skills or ‘product’ aren’t necessarily related to your W-2 job history, I think the resume formatting can be really tough – in my opinion the skills/product needs to try to bend to resume norms (as in making a long-term creative project seem like a job), and sometimes that seems weird but ultimately makes it easier to communicate to normies to sell yourself.

        1. I Have RBF*

          $CompanyName, $City – June 2023 – June 2024
          * Owner, artist, writer, marketing department, finance department.
          * Produced a card deck and a companion book, including all art and writing.
          * Managed relationships with printers and retail distributors.

          1. EngineeringFun*

            I do small engineering projects for friends/volenteer that solve everyday problems (I’m an engineer). I created Name Consulting to capture all these projects. It’s written similar to this! Every project had a Name for this reason! Awesome work BTW.

    3. Nicosloanica*

      Not sure if this is the best advice, but what I did under similar circumstances is list myself as a freelancer under something quite broad like “marketing” or “communications” (so in your case maybe it’s “sales” ?) and then include as sub-bullets a few things I did which would all seem quite random otherwise. Nobody has yet demanded an audit of my books which proves I only did one job for some of those opportunities versus being 95% involved in others.

  3. Vacant Hotel*

    I posted on the last open thread about being an admin assistant who couldn’t attend a working lunch and found another admin to go in my place without asking my boss (Sara), who got mad that I chose an admin who is soon retiring (Amy) rather than an admin with no immediate plans to leave but who couldn’t go because he helped his sick mother on his lunch break (Matt). I want to thank everyone for the responses who reassured me that I’d acted fine and that my boss Sara had overreacted.

    What’s odd is that normally she is not a micro-manager. She’s pretty hands off; plus she is frequently at other locations that I can occasionally go a whole week without seeing her. This situation was wildly out-of-character for her. What’s even more weird is suddenly she and Matt’s manager, who is under Sara, have both strongly hinted that Matt should apply for FML status. As I mentioned, he’s been dealing with his mother’s health stuff for months. It’s never been an issue because even when he’s taking time off of work, he’s got hundreds of hours of sickle ave because he’s been in the job forever. It’s never been an issue in the past, but now they are suddenly asking about his FML status. My theory is that it’s because it’s the first time he has refused to do a work task for these personal reasons, even though he was going to his mother’s on his own lunch break. So now he has applied for FML. We’re both taken back by this reaction and them suddenly questioning of his FML status when they’re not technically supposed to tell an employee to get it. And Sara is forcing him to attend this work event in person, even though there is an option to go virtual, which would be far easier for him to do since the event is at another location.

    This is all just wild for something that could’ve easily been resolved with a simple conversation, rather than overreacting and pressuring for FML status. This is not something that is serious enough for us to leave our jobs but we’re definitely keeping our eye out for more overstepping like this; Matt and I had a pretty frank discussion about it. He’s a couple years from retirement so he’d rather hang in there to get his full pension. I’m still early in my career so moving wouldn’t be an issue, but I’m not in a hurry to do it right now for various reasons. But thank you again for the responses!

    1. WellRed*

      I disagree that it’s overstep to suggest FMLA and of course they can suggest it! I think you are conflating it with the overreaction (which it was) about the meeting. It’s possible that was the catalyst for them, of course but I see nothing wrong here. Are there other things going on that have you concerned?

      1. Vacant Hotel*

        Sara suggesting FMLA to Matt is odd because she’s not technically supposed to say whether he should get it or not. When I had to get FMLA status to deal with intermittent appointments related to an injury, I asked Sara if I should get it when I had sick leave to cover it (it was my first time needing FMLA so I didn’t understand the process the ). She said that as a manager, she could not advise me on whether or not to apply for FMLA status; she could only give me the contact info of the HR person. So to suddenly inquire about Matt’s FMLA status and suggest he look into it when she’s told me and others that she can’t discuss anything related to it seems like a complete flip on her stance.

        1. Willow Grass*

          Perhaps since then she’s discovered that she indeed can – and should – be suggesting it. You know, she learned and got better at her role? Just a possibility.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          So, if Sara had said she couldn’t approve the application, that would’ve made sense. But saying she can’t suggest whether you should/shouldn’t could/couldn’t apply for it, she definitely didn’t know what she was talking about. Although, perhaps she knew she didn’t know what she was talking about and that’s why she pointed you at someone else instead.
          What she said to Matt makes significantly more sense, so I’m guessing she got some training (or started reading AAM) at some point between your situation and Matt’s.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I have to wonder if there is something else going on here. I cannot imagine what, exactly, but some other, bigger reason they’re being so weird about all this.

      1. Baldrick*

        Yeah, last week I said that my bet was on the original admin (VP Admin) creating a fuss with her boss who then went to Sara and caused her grief, and that’s why Sara is worried about it. I suspect this is Sara redirecting a bad mood rather than it starting with her.

    3. Midwest Manager too!*

      From the employer standpoint, if Matt’s caregiving responsibilities are interfering in work activities (which this sounds like it is), he’s entitled to FMLA protection. Once he applies for (and receives approval) for intermittent FMLA, they cannot discipline him for missing work activities due to the protections invoked. The suggestion to apply for it protects the employer from accusations of withholding information, as well as formalizes his need to use time for this purpose. His application and approval protects him, too. This is smart of the employer to encourage him to do this. They cannot force it though, if he did not choose to file for FMLA protection, he can be disciplined for skipping out on a mandatory work event/meeting.

      Note that FMLA hours are not generally paid hours, unless he uses his earned PTO to cover the absence.

      1. Jack Russell Terrier*

        Yes – my husband’s boss basically told him this, and he got FMLA and has used it intermittently. He’s a great employee with some medical stuff that means he comes in late (and stays late) or sometimes calls out at the last minute. Because of this, it’s all codified and his boss doesn’t have to worry either.

    4. dulcinea47*

      Not sure where you are, but all of my employers have been aggressive in suggesting FMLA at the slightest hint you might need it. It’s definitely okay for them to tell people they can/should use it. It does sound like something is up considering your place hasn’t done this before tho.

      1. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

        FMLA is unpaid and drains your PTO. That’s why my employer is aggressive in suggesting it even in situations that can be easily handled without it.

        1. Magpie*

          FMLA protects your job so you can take time off for the reasons covered by FMLA. It doesn’t dictate how you’re required to use your PTO. That’s up to the individual companies. I’m not really clear on how FMLA would drain your PTO but taking time off without FMLA wouldn’t. If you work for a company that requires you to use PTO before unpaid leave when using FMLA, it seems unlikely that they would be fine with you taking unpaid time off outside of FMLA while saving your PTO for something else.

        2. MCL*

          This is situational. Per the FMLA website’s faq:

          “The FMLA only requires unpaid leave. However, the law permits an employee to elect, or the employer to require the employee, to use accrued paid vacation leave, paid sick or family leave for some or all of the FMLA leave period. An employee must follow the employer’s normal leave rules in order to substitute paid leave. When paid leave is used for an FMLA-covered reason, the leave is FMLA-protected.”

          I am on intermittent FMLA and I have a huge bank of leave (I had been saving it in case I wanted paid parental leave or for any other medical care). I have been taking my leave paid but my employer allows me to choose to take it unpaid. However, if I choose unpaid leave it could affect my health insurance. This is N/A to me because I’m insured through my spouse’s plan.

          If the employer is requiring Matt to use his paid leave when he takes FMLA, well, he’s doing that anyway when he’s caring for his mom.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Noooo, I would absolutely encourage him to apply for intermittent FMLA if his caretaking needs are interfering with his ability to complete assigned work tasks. That’s exactly what it’s FOR – to protect his job if his (family’s) health situation interferes with it to some degree. Without the iFMLA, they can absolutely give him disciplinary action up to and including termination for refusing work tasks, and at least at my organization, once a manager is aware that a report has a potentially FMLA-qualifying situation, we are REQUIRED to encourage the report to look into it. We can’t make them drink from that bucket, but we can absolutely lead them to it and encourage it strongly, and I can’t think of any situation where a reasonable manager WOULDN’T want to support their report this way.

    6. MCL*

      Managers should be encouraging an employee to look into FMLA if they have a qualifying situation, and it sounds like Matt does. FMLA protects Matt from disciplinary action/termination. He can use his PTO or not – HR would have the details. The manager might not be the person who actually makes the FMLA decision but she is absolutely right to encourage him to look into it, especially if his absences related to caregiving are imperiling his employment. Matt doesn’t have to take FMLA but it sounds like he should strongly consider it.

      I am a caregiver at the moment and my FMLA paperwork is on file. I am approved for intermittent FMLA for a period of months, and I can use my PTO or take it unpaid. I have oodles of PTO because I have been at my generously-PTO’d organization for well over a decade, so I am taking my time paid. I could preserve my bank and take it fully or partially unpaid, though.

    7. Velawciraptor*

      Honestly, when I was managing, when I became aware of an employee who might qualify for FML, I just sent an email to them and HR, hooking them up on the subject and saying I’ll sign any paperwork that comes my way if this leave is needed. Better to be sure someone knows they have the option and let them opt not to use it than for them to need it and not have the support they need to get it.

      All of which is to say, maybe it’s not an overreaction, but a realization that they should have gotten Matt those resources before.

      1. Cj*

        yeah, I’m really confused where they’re getting the idea that they shouldn’t have suggested FMLA to Matt. employers are actually required to inform an employee about FMLA and how to apply for it if they are aware of it a situation that would make them eligible for it.

        the fact that Matt has a ton of sick leave available doesn’t have anything to do with it. you can be fired for being gone to often even if you have sick leave unless you have FMLA protection.

        he is using his sick leave to get paid now, and could use it when he is out for FMLA leave, so he’s has nothing to lose and everything to gain by applying for fmla.

        1. GythaOgden*

          With you all on this. I’ve been in a similar situation to Matt where I was discussing a leave of absence from my job because of the challenging summer before my husband died.

          Ensuring Matt is protected from any adverse impact of his caregiving responsibility on his job is not just legal, it’s the sign of a decent employer. UK law, under which I am, differs in substance (inasmuch sick leave is separate from other holiday, but an employer can, on a case by case basis, make decisions about future employment based on excessive absence) but in essence I was being offered a six month period to focus on my husband with a guarantee of a job to come back to. They had needs orthogonal to mine and in the above case, if Matt is going to stay longer than the other admin, it makes more sense to them for him to have the knowledge rather than the other lady. Ultimately it’s their decision to make.

          I didn’t take the offered LoA — hubby was on his last legs (he died two weeks later) and six months unpaid would have been tough. But at some point an employee struggling with divided responsibilities needs to be aware of what the company can do /to protect his job/ when /their needs are not being met/. I suspect this isn’t the first time Matt is struggling to meet those demands (you probably don’t know the specifics), and although, like me, it’s through no fault of their own, an employer has only so much ability to cope without it ending in tears. Hence FMLA is there to protect the employee from adverse consequences, just as the LoA suggested to me was for my benefit, because the job I was being paid to do wasn’t being done and while they felt sorry for me and supported me until the bitter end, at some point they had stuff that needed done.

          So yeah, OP’s employee isn’t wrong and is actually doing their due diligence to help Matt out. They sound like they’ve learnt from the previous situation, and have more of an insight into what balls Matt is having to drop in the first place.

          I’m sorry — my heart goes out to Matt because it’s like /five years to the day/ that my husband actually died, and no-one should have to choose. But that’s why we have protections like FMLA in your case and LoAs in mine — and it’s right (and good) for the employer to suggest he registers for it.

          1. Cj*

            and my heart goes out to you for losing your husband, and what you had to deal with before he died.

  4. Studying accents*

    I joined a new international project and I am struggling HARD with the team’s accents. It’s kicking my azz so much that I’m missing key points, and I’ve had to start recording meetings so I can replay certain phrases over and over to try to interpret.

    I’m aware of many language-learning resources, but is there such a thing as an accent-learning product?

    1. Susan Calvin*

      No resources to offer, sorry, but ime, it just a matter of exposure, especially if the rest of your team appears to understand each other fine. Exposure, and being completely shameless and matter-of-fact about asking “sorry, I didn’t catch that, could you repeat?” whenever you genuinely can’t follow.

      Source: have studied and worked in context with English as consensus language, but less than 10% native speakers at any given time, for over a decade

      1. Miette*

        I have to second this–with time you WILL get better. Time and experience, since presumably work-related words are in use, so you’ll just get used to hearing them that way until it becomes second nature.

      2. shoesies*

        third this. Also, if you ask them to repeat, you can ask for different words. If it takes awhile to develop your ear for certain phrases, hearing different words may help

    2. EA*

      Not sure about accent learning, but the auto close captioning feature in Zoom helps me a lot with understanding.

      1. Mobius 1*

        If their accents are as thick as it sounds like they are, I can’t see the auto captions being worth more than a good laugh.

        1. Pinkbasil*

          I use Otter.ai and often the transcripts pick up the words more easily than I can. The tool listens to literally millions of words in every type of pronunciation and can “hear” things that I can’t.

    3. AnonymousOctopus*

      Seek out videos of people speaking in those accents! Ted talks, lectures, interviews, etc. When first practicing, pick videos on topics that you know very well so you can pick out the content key terms easier, and if you can find one with actual captions (not auto-generated) that will also help tremendously. Start the playback speed slow, like .5 or .75, and then work your way up to normal speed.

      You got this!

      1. Flor*

        Second this! Also if you’re talking about accents from other native English speakers (as opposed to people who are speaking English as a second language, which might be harder to come by), then look for TV shows/radio from that country/locale. On radio or news/documentary programmes, they’ll tend to speak slower and enunciate so you can get used to the cadences without relying on subtitles.

      2. AnonymousOctopus*

        One more thought: research some linguistics about the language/accent you are struggling with, specifically “phonemes” and “allophones”. A lot of accent struggles are due to the speaker’s first language not having a sound (phoneme) that is present in English/your first language so the sound comes out different, or they do have that phoneme but there are unconscious rules around when sound is formed that don’t mesh with English pronunciation. No direct resources off the top of my head but I bet YouTube has some videos for the language pair.

        Last thing: bad audio quality will thwart all your effort of understanding an accent. Asking people to use an external microphone, or asking them to move the mic further from/closer to their mouth can make a huge impact on your understanding.

        1. linger*

          The most serious areas of difficulty for word recognition across English accents are:
          1. Differences in stress marking and position. Many speakers of English as a second/other language either mark stress on a different syllable, or are not perceived as marking it at all (in some cases because they’re using a different marker, e.g. pitch rather than loudness or duration). This is notoriously difficult to master in a second language, and impacts word recognition in English, especially since such differences almost always co-occur with …
          2. Differences in speech timing: especially, use of syllable timing rather than stress timing. This can make it much harder for a listener to recognise words and find word boundaries in running speech.
          3. (Perceived) phoneme mergers, where a speaker does not make a (noticeable*) distinction between two or more speech sounds that a listener requires to separate words. [*In some cases the speaker may in fact make some distinction, but not in the specific way the listener can hear.] Across English accents, mergers most often affect vowels (e.g. NEAR/SQUARE merger in NZ English, START/LOT/CAUGHT merger for some Americans), though differences in voicing onset time, or lack of voicing onset time contrast, may result in (apparent or actual) systematic merger of voiced/voiceless consonant pairs; and certain other specific consonant contrasts are not available in some first languages, e.g. as some of the more frequent problems, dental fricatives /θ,ð/ may be merged with alveolar /s,z/ or /t,d/ or labiodental /f,v/; postalveolars /ʃ,ʒ/ may be merged with alveolars /s,z/; /r/ and /l/ may be merged; /v/ and /w/ may be merged; or /b/ and /v/ may be merged.
          4. Even native accents of English may be affected by chain shifts, where vowel phoneme contrasts are actually maintained but the exact pronunciation is heard as one step further along, leading to misinterpretation in cross-accent communication. (The front vowels for TRAP, DRESS are roughly one step higher in Australian/NZ English than in standard British English; and NZ/Australian/South African Englishes also have diphthong pronunciations for FACE, PRICE, CHOICE rotated roughly one step from British English)

      3. Donkey Hotey*

        Also: TV shows and radio programs (there are world wide “radio broadcasts” streaming in the Web.)

      4. Kay*

        This is the way. I’ve had this situation come up before, and what works best in most instances is prolonged exposure. A couple day retreat for the teams to work closely together all day usually does the trick. If that isn’t your thing, or it isn’t something you have influence over, the immersion with video/tv/whatever way you can force yourself to listen to that accent for a weekend (or more if needed) is the next best thing.

        If that doesn’t work, time and patience, along with doing whatever research you can.

    4. Ashley*

      Can you find someone with a similar accent on You Tube to watch and listen to to become more familiar and used to the cadence?

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      I haven’t heard of such a thing, I’m afraid! It can take time to get used to it. I work with someone who speaks a different native language than I do, and though he is quite fluent in English (my native language), his accent can sometimes make it tricky to understand him, especially over Zoom, and especially given that his manner of speaking is rather quiet and quick. He is in the habit of putting super important stuff (names of people, in our work) into the chat so I can make sure to get the correct spelling, which is helpful.

      I think using remote meeting software gives you a helpful thing to lean on: “It’s sometimes hard for me to hear folks accurately over Zoom/Teams. Would it be possible for someone to take notes and distribute them after the meeting? That way I can be sure I didn’t miss anything.” It frames it more as a you/technology problem.

    6. Nameo*

      My partner has used YouTube videos to learn very specific accents for a role he was playing. There will probably be at least one video that generalizes the conventions of the accent, and plenty more featuring people with the accent; I feel like that combination would help you understand your colleagues more quickly!

    7. Aspiring Square*

      Are you struggling with their accent in your native language (their second) or struggling with their native accent in your second language?

      The advice is really the same for both: exposure, exposure, exposure, and the other commenters already offered helpful tips on where to find exposure. Youtube and Podcasts are my go-tos

      The one thing I’d add is really just be kind with yourself. I have a coworker who speaks my native language at an advanced level with a strong accent and it took us a few months to really regularly understand each other without asking for clarification throughout the conversation, which we did by simply repeating what we thought we heard to each other and correcting until it was right. Neither of us made a huge deal about it by commenting on it excessively, just kept plowing through it until it happened less.

      On the flip side, they speak their native language with a strong regional accent that is known to be difficult even to native speakers, and my intermediate understanding of the language still struggles with it seriously two years later. We default to my native language, which hasn’t helped sine my exposure is lower.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        It’s also quite possible for it to be both people’s first language. As an American I find some people from parts of Scotland or India who have English as their first language very difficult to understand. (For regional British accents, watching GBBO with captions on can be a great help, to echo the “find and watch recordings of people who share the accents you have trouble with” advice.)

        1. Aspiring Square*

          That’s fair, I read “language-learning resources” which put me in the frame of mind to think about other languages being involved, but OP never actually says it’s a foreign language accent

        2. zhwb*

          Love Island is another one that really helped me with regional UK accents (I don’t even have to watch with subtitles anymore!)

        3. Goldfeesh*

          This reminds me of something I could have done for Mortification Week. At a big group interview deal where they called out the name of the next interviewee, I didn’t understand the gentleman was calling out my name. Neither my first nor last name sounded familiar to me. I hung around forever waiting for my name to be called, then went to talk to someone and realized I hadn’t understood the man who called my name for my interview.

        4. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

          I’m British, and when I lived in the UK with my Australian partner (Beatrice), our building had a Jamaican handyman (Reuben). All three of us had English as a first language. Reuben didn’t have a lot of time for me, but he adored Beatrice, so she was usually the person who interacted with him. HOWEVER, neither of them could understand the other’s accent even a little bit, so I used to have to stand there simultaneously translating.

    8. Hyaline*

      Do you think others are struggling, too? If so, you might bring up general “good meeting etiquette” like “Since we’re not in the same room, it’s easy for things to get lost–can everyone be sure to speak a little more slowly than usual? (And/or: Drop questions in the chat to discourage sidetracking, drop technical language or resources in the chat, make sure to speak one at a time, anything else that gets in the way of clear communication).” And I’m not trying to insert medical advice but–have you had your hearing checked recently? If it’s just you, and your equipment seems to be delivering sound as well as everyone else’s, consider a hearing check. I am slightly hard of hearing and usually don’t notice an issue, but take away face-to-face cues of in-person communication and add in accents and it’s suddenly a LOT harder for me.

    9. Educator*

      Do you have the kind of culture where you could explain to a leader/manager that you are a visual learner and would really appreciate slides/notes in these meetings? We usually share agendas, slideshows, and key talking points ahead of our meetings and have found it really helpful for this and many other reasons.

    11. H.Regalis*

      Like other people have said, watch/listen to videos by people with the types of accents you need to learn. The more you hear the accents, the easier it gets to understand people. Captions definitely help too. When I started at my current job, I could barely understand a couple of my coworkers, but now I can understand them just fine. It just takes time and practice.

      Also, it can be awkward, but if you can’t understand someone, ask them to repeat what they said or maybe even type it out instead of saying it. One of my newer coworkers has a hard time with my accent, so I make sure to also send them things in writing when I need to give them instructions or explain something to them.

    12. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think it might just be getting used to their accents. I would say if you do seem lost see if you can ask them to repeat themselves etc. It has nothing to do with race. There are white accents even within the US that I’ve had a hard time with. When I worked customer service I had people from all over the US calling in and for me (Minnesota) the worst were New York, Boston and Texas. I had to ask people to slow down or to repeat themselves. And sometimes they had to do the same for me. Accents are weird and some people just have a harder time processing them.

      If you can, could you try to find TV or movies that feature people with those accents. Preferably people who actually have those accents and not an actor putting one on. So if they other teammates are from India find some TV shows that are made and feature Indian actors.

      1. Lego girl*

        I knew someone with a very thick Scottish accent – when asked to repeat something, she’d always just say it louder, as though the problem was volume and not her accent. I wish she would have realized that it would be more helpful if she’d rephrased to use different words, perhaps you could ask for things to be rephrased to be sure you’re getting the right point?

        1. The Voice of Scotland*

          Did you ask her to rephrase? If someone asks me to repeat something, my default assumption is that they couldn’t hear it due to volume. I’d do exactly as she did. And as a Scot, I wouldn’t assume my accent is an issue unless someone tells me.

          1. Seashell*

            I’m American, and when I see Scottish people on TV, I usually find their accent very hard to understand. I’d probably have an easier time with accents from any other majority-English speaking country.

    13. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      I don’t know if this would help but I have auditory processing disorder and one thing that helps me a lot is looking at people’s lips while they’re talking.

    14. Meh*

      how about intentionally slowing the pace of actually speaking. I’ve found speaking slowly does make it easier for non-native speakers to understand, and for me to pronounce more clearly in my foreign languages.

      People tend to match each other in volume and speed, so if you speak a bit more slowly, chances are they will slow down as well.

    15. Seawren*

      I don’t know of any resources, but can confirm that exposure helps. I volunteer with an ESL program and every time I get a student from a new region, I struggle to understand them for a while then gradually get the hang of their accent. Some are definitely harder than others.

      1. It's Friday*

        Seconding the advice so far. And, if it is appropriate, you can send a quick post-meeting email with the key points/action items, ending it with something like “feel free to add if I am missing something” so that you can be sure you didn’t miss something major.

    16. AccentsAbound*

      I sympathize, and it’s really a hard issue because it’s not acceptable to tell someone you can’t understand what they’re saying (nor can you tell someone else you can’t understand them). We have a client I interact with who is incredibly smart and super nice and I can only understand every third word out of her mouth. I was on a call earlier today where I was expected to answer questions I could not understand. There’s really no recourse but to power through and hope you get the gist of things, apologize when you get it wrong, and hope your coworkers caught more than you did if you have coworkers to lean on (but do so in a way that is not blaming the accent).

      I really, really feel your pain. I see some people say it gets better with more exposure. That hasn’t been my experience, but here’s hoping it is for you.

      1. allathian*

        Blaming the accent is fine. If you can’t understand someone, you can’t and that’s that. At least as long as you’re seen to have made an honest effort to do so. Just frame it as your lack (I’m sorry, but I can’t understand your accent) rather than their accent (you have a horrible accent nobody could be expected to understand and you need to change the way you speak). It’s also not racist if you specify you have trouble understanding this individual person.

        Is there any way for you to ask the client’s permission to record those calls? Or if your calls are recorded for quality control, is there any way you could get to listen to the recordings? That would mean outing yourself to your employer as unable to understand that client, but if someone’s listening to your calls they probably already know.

        Or the obvious solution, could this client be assigned to someone else?

        What’s the environment you’re working in like? Do you have a good noise-canceling headset or are you literally on the phone in a noisy office?

        1. AccentsAbound*

          Thanks for the advice. I guarantee it would be seen as racist if I ever said anything to my coworkers about anyone’s accent and I absolutely could never say anything no matter how blandly stated to anyone I can’t understand. I work at a small non-profit and we don’t really overlap much, so there are times when I’m the primary person responsible for understanding and addressing people with accents I cannot understand and other times when I’m secondary but expected to understand what was said and point out any issues I see to the primary on our side.

          I have discussed this/brainstormed with a co-worker I’m friendly with who usually isn’t involved in these interactions and she agrees I really can’t say anything even internally to our other coworkers.

          The one thing I do with the woman I mentioned above when in the sphere that I’m the primary responsible person on our side is ask her to shoot me an email on certain things so I can follow up further. This helps immensely, but it is pretty specific to her case/the types of things that would come up in the specific regular call where this is a common issue as double checking off the cuff remarks or doing follow up research is normal.

          Thanks again for your perspective! I do appreciate the attempt to help.

          PS nearly all of my interactions with folks happen over Zoom or, every so often, Teams or Webex.

          1. Aglet*

            Can you blame it on yourself or your hearing? I have some high frequency hearing loss. There are no hearing aids for it or anything. I just have to ask people to try using different words or be specific about which words I didn’t understand.

  5. Lou*

    Who plans a baby shower for a manager?

    I am the head of a department. There is one manager who is my direct report, and then she has 7 people who report to her.

    2 of the manager’s direct reports are responsible for planning team building/festive activities (all virtual). In the past this included a baby shower for their team member (same level on org chart). The planners collected funds for a group gift, which I made sure was worded in a way to be non obligatory, and I contributed but did not have knowledge of the other contributions.

    Am I ok to see if they can plan one for their manager? Do I then make clear that I will purchase the gift on behalf of the team? I want to keep them from gifting up. I could do the planning, too, but feel weird since we have a team that always does this and is good at it!

    1. Antilles*

      If they’ve already done similar team building/festive activities, I think it’s perfectly fine to ask them to continue it for this. I would however make sure you are crystal clear at the fact that you will be purchasing the gift yourself and they are not being asked to pay for any of the costs of the shower themselves. Their role is to do the same sort of coordination and planning they’ve done in the past, not to spend anything because you’re covering it.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Gifting up is not great, as you acknowledge, and I feel like “planning up” kind of falls into the same territory? If you think they’d be happy to do it anyway because that’s the dynamic of the team, you can always say something like “I’m happy to plan the party since she’s your manager, but let me know if you’d prefer to do it as the festive activities folks.”

    3. EA*

      I think in this situation it’s totally fine to ask them to plan the activity and you provide the gift. Just know that other people may want to give gifts as well, since baby showers are usually gift giving events. I don’t see that as a bad thing though, as long as they don’t feel pressure. “No gifting up” probably depends a lot on your company’s culture and the relationship between the managers and team members.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      My two direct reports very kindly planned one for me. I think it’s OK to ask them to do it if they have this as part of their actual responsibilities in general, and do of course make it clear you’ll purchase the gift. You could also offer assistance with planning if needed.

    6. Higher Ed Admin*

      In my org, the manager of the person who has the special occasion always manages organizing any gift-giving. It would feel VERY weird to be asked to plan a baby shower for my manager.

    7. House On The Rock*

      It’s probably fine to ask them to do it if activity planning is part of their stated job responsibilities (meaning not just something that defaults to them because it always has or that they frequently volunteer for but are not officially tasked with). Otherwise, you might see if there was a “neutral” whose job includes event planning who could help.

  6. OrdinaryJoe*

    Is two weeks actually required at your job? I’m wondering if you can do some prep work now, assuming you haven’t already done so, and give your notice on say … Tuesday or Wednesday and still make it the following Friday, so roughly 7-8 days workdays instead of 10. I think most employers would understand that and appreciate the clean break on a Friday for payroll.

    3. Audiophile*

      I think this will depend on a few things – 1) your level of seniority and 2) your office culture. For instance, I’ve seen VPs and SVPs do prep work for new roles but not junior staff. If you take whole days off to handle prep work for a new job, that may be an issue. But it might not if you only take a few hours here and there. It’s worth asking when you give notice.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        I don’t think OrdinaryJoe was referring to taking time off to prep for a new job. That would be odd during a standard 2-week notice period (but potentially more reasonable during a longer notice period). I believe their comment was referring to prep work when leaving a job, e.g. documenting things for whoever they hire to replace you. It seems like they meant to reply to a different comment above about whether or not your last day has to be on a Friday.

    4. M2*

      Give two weeks! When I call references I always ask about the persons notice period! I have not hired people when heard about people leaving before notice period or phoning it in during the notice period. Just ask your new role for a longer start date. Most organizations understand needing time between roles.

      Honestly unless it is a bad situation I don’t think it’s worth it to potentially burn that bridge.

      1. Having a Scrummy Week*

        You really ask that? Seems like a pretty shallow question and not representative of a good employee.

  7. my cat is prettier than me*

    I’m the person who posted on last week’s thread about taking time off for my wisdom teeth removal. I did end up taking all three days.

    I wasn’t loopy coming out of the anesthesia, and did a little bit of work immediately upon getting home until my mother took the computer away from me. I answered some emails on Tuesday and got caught up Wednesday afternoon. Yesterday was my first day back and it was rough. I had a lot of pain and an absurd amount of swelling. I’m feeling better today, but I’m looking forward to a restful weekend.

    So overall, things went well. Nothing bad happened at work while I was gone. I need to remember that the next time I try to overexert myself.

    Thanks again everyone for the advice.

    2. Mobius 1*

      Good going Mom! I have to do this when my wife is out sick/when we are on vacation sometimes.

  8. Poplar Tree*

    How many hours do those of you who are salaried and full time work on average? I’m especially interested in any mid-upper level managers.

    I’m also interested in how much you’re able to be flexible with your time in your role, and what you need to tell your boss. There aren’t any written rules for this at my company and I feel weird asking because I think it will come across as me asking how much I can slack off.

    1. Pam Adams*

      I work for a university as a lead academic Advisor. My work week stays fairly close to 40 hours each week. (complicated right now due to intermittent FML)

    2. Audiophile*

      This is a tough one. My last role didn’t have much work for me, and although I was not salaried, there was an agreed upon/expected 8-hour day. They kind of freaked out if I wasn’t immediately available. This was even though everyone agreed they did not have enough work for me to do and struggled to find tasks. Basically, I stopped saying anything and found ways to flex/manage my time without it being too obvious, in my opinion.

      My current job is much more flexible; it’s salaried, and they don’t seem to expect me to pretend to be busier than I am in actuality.

      1. Poplar Tree*

        This is similar to my problem. It’s not that there’s not enough work for me to do, but there are specific times of the month where I’m really light and then others where I’m loaded up. I try to keep a consistent 40 hour work week, but there are definitely weeks where I’m working through lunches and in meetings that last 1-3 hours after I’m supposed to be gone for the day. So I end up working like 45-50 hours that week. Then the next week will be dead, and I’d love to say “hey I’m leaving at 12 on Friday” but I feel like I can’t really do that.

        I’ll leave 15 minutes early here and there or take an extended lunch break, but I’d rather leave a few hours early occasionally. My boss is pretty flexible in general, but I feel like I need to have a legitimate reason when I leave more than a few minutes early. So I have no issue telling her I need to leave at 2:30 for an appointment, but I don’t feel like I can say “hey I’m leaving at 2:30 because I put in a ton of time last week and I want to go do my grocery shopping when the store isn’t mobbed”

    3. Dust Bunny*

      I am not but the salaried people at my workplace are pretty strictly 40 hours, no weekends* unless you were actually hired to work weekends, and there is some flexibility but since we work with a segment of the public we have core hours and not endless flexibility. Our hours are 8-5. I’m 7:30-4:30 and my two bosses are functionally 9-6 most of the time, unless they need to be otherwise. We don’t get a lot of patrons first thing in the morning and if we do, I can almost always handle them.

      *My department has one Saturday event a year and we get a comp day off to make up for it. This is our only weekend obligation, ever, and we could do it with fewer people if someone genuinely could not make it.

    4. Bast*

      I am a salaried associate at a law firm. Thankfully, I am somewhere that values work-life balance. I RARELY work more than a 40 hour work week, unless we are approaching trial. Frequently, I hit about 37 hours and that’s that. The partners will also sometimes close early in the summer and let us leave a couple of hours early, or give us the days off in between holidays if they land mid-week and we don’t have anything major going on (ie: 4th of July was on Thursday, rather than come in on Friday the 5th and then have our weekend, the partners elected to just shut down the office on the 5th and give us an extra long weekend). If you’re here past 5-ish, the partners will ask what you are still doing and tell you to go home. My hours are expected to be more or less the same — I am pretty much expected to be here between 9 to 3 for core hours, so there’s only slight flexibility there, however, if I need to come in a couple of hours late for a doctor’s appointment or work from home with a sick kid, no one bats an eye.

      I have worked at other offices where salaried meant 40 hours minimum, and the expectation was more like 45-50. Leaving 10 minutes early to go to an appointment would be commented on, even if you clocked in early to make up for it. They would be “flexible” in terms of hours worked, as in, please feel free to clock in at 10:00 pm to answer emails to make up time, but not flexible as in, heaven forbid you clock less than 40 hours; you’d be having a conversation with HR. Clocking exactly 40 you’d get how “no one wants to put in the extra effort” anymore.

      1. anotherfan*

        I think this depends on your job. In newspapers/media, editors are on 24/7 and a 10-hour work day five days a week is normal plus the occasional hour on saturday (or sunday) to finish up some editing or budgeting we didn’t get to on friday. we’re the other end of the ‘salaried but only put in 40 hours a week’ but that’s what the job itself entails so we’re used to it.

    5. Jamie Starr*

      I’m a senior manager at a nonprofit and I would say I’m between 40-41 hours/week. (Because sometimes I’m 10 minutes early, sometimes I stay 15 minutes late, etc.) I’m also the type of person who doesn’t check my work email after hours or on the weekends. My hours aren’t that flexible, which is fine with me — I don’t want to have to work at 8pm because I took a couple hours off in the middle of the day.

      I try to schedule appointments (dentist, doctor, etc) after hours or as close to before/after work as possible so if I do need to leave early/come in late it’s only an hour or less. I don’t request sick time – I just tell my boss (who is a C-level) I have an appointment and need to leave at X time. Because I’m a good employee, get my sh*t done, and am not logging out every day exactly at 5pm, it’s fine. But if it was more than 2 hours, or something where it was the middle of the day, or I knew I wouldn’t feel well after, I’d probably just use a 1/2 day of PTO or even take the entire day off (PTO).

    6. E*

      I’ve held the exact same job at 2 different companies with very different expectations. Previous job was at least 50 hours a week with flexibility to work at home but not much with the actual schedule. I had a boss that ‘lived to work’ and thought we all did too. Current job is either 25 or 40+ depending on when stuff is due and is very much work whenever as long as you are available by phone & email during normal core hours and get the work done on time. I’m an estimator for a civil contractor so my workload is very dependent on when bids are due.

    7. Educator*

      Talk to your manager about this! I would much rather have a candid conversation about this with a direct report than have them worry. Frame it as “I’m trying to get a sense of the culture around work hours and availability. What hours are most of the team online? Do you want me to tell you if I step away for things like letting in the plumber or running to the pharmacy over lunch?” That reads as contentious, not slacking. Everyone wonders about this.

    8. Irish Teacher.*

      I’m a teacher, so this isn’t quite the same. Technically, I am paid for 22 hours, but those are just the hours in the classroom. In total, I…probably work around 35 hours a week. It’s very hard to work out exactly, as some of it is stuff like watching videos to see if they would be suitable for a class or talking to colleagues which often wanders between personal chat and work related stuff, plus it really depends on the time of year. Some weeks are much busier than others, but on average, I’d say about 35ish.

    9. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I manage three teams that each have leads and individual contributors, so I think I qualify as mid-level? :) My officially stated (in my email sig and outlook) schedule is 7a-3:30p, I usually end up logging off my work computer somewhere between 3:30 and 4, and then will check my email/teams on my phone (I keep the notifications off, so I have to manually check them) once more around 6:30p in case of like, team members with time clock issues or something, or an invite to an early meeting the next day. I tend to stay on a little longer at month end or if something specific is going on, but still never any later than 4:30.

      I’m remote, so I also have a lot of flexibility there – my boss doesn’t mind if I flex my time around personal appointments and whatnot as long as my calendar is kept up to date (and I just put the personal stuff on as “personal” without details) and I attend my scheduled meetings and otherwise do my job.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        oh – I check timecards every Sunday morning after the pay week ends on Saturday, which takes about 15 minutes. My teams have fully flexible schedules as well, so if someone put in for PTO and decided to make it up instead, I have to correct that, etc. I could do this on Mondays, but I like to have it all sorted and tidy for them when they start work on Monday mornings. Otherwise, unless under weird circumstances or year-end push, I don’t work on weekends – again, I might check my email on my phone once or twice, but that’s primarily just so I know what to expect when I actually log in on Monday.

    10. Bearbrick*

      Mid-upper management/salaried/FT and we don’t use any time tracking tools. I work about 35 hours in a normal week. Based on business demands there are sometimes weeks when I work significantly more or less- 20/30 hours on the low end, 60/70 on the high end. In my situation, immediate availability during work hours and overall output is way more important than number of hours worked. My boss is broadly aware that I flex my hours at my discretion but doesn’t ask for details.
      I don’t take sick time for dr appts/etc unless it’s going to take up more than 2-3 hours. Not a company policy formally, but widely accepted as what we do.

    12. Rex Libris*

      I’m upper level at a public library, and stay mostly at 8 hour days and 40 hour weeks, Mon-Fri, unless something special comes up. A few times a year I’ll have a 45-48 hour week. Expectations are that I will get 40 hours in though, give or take a few minutes here and there.

      I’m pretty much responsible for tracking my own time, though I’m expected to show up sometime between 8:00 and 9:30 am. There’s no problem with leaving 30 minutes early or taking a long lunch and then making it up later, within reason.

    13. QA Mgr*

      (I’m a long-time reader but rarely post)

      I’m in the mid-upper mgr realm – I have 8 direct reports; 2 senior individual contributors and 6 managers, total team is ~45 people including temps, and my boss reports to the CEO. All staff (salaried and hourly) have to submit timecards that total at least 80 hours across two weeks, based on project charge code (we have indirect/internal numbers as well as direct/client numbers for tracking). Hourly workers and temps get overtime over 40 hours in a week (based on their work state), but hourly staff don’t have to use PTO if their two-week total is 80 hours. Our official time charging policy is very clear about charging/logging all hours worked, which is what I hold to.

      Our to-do list always exceeds the time we have available, and a huge amount of my time and my manager’s time pivots based on current priorities. On my team, I try to be crystal clear that I don’t expect everything to get “done”, I expect active prioritization within your scheduled 80 hours, and I try to model that as well. That said, I do go to 81-85 hours probably every other paycycle to get caught up on document reviews, send emails, do admin work, etc. My managers are pretty good about sticking to 80 hours and encourage their teams to do the same.

      I permit a fair amount of flexibility in terms of on-site vs remote time. Many of my people come in to the office 2-4 days a week and also will flex hours to avoid having to take PTO hours for partial days. I have an active mother who has 3 small kids, and she manages to avoid using PTO most of the time for her kids’ stuff, she’ll make up time/work longer days as needed. I’m crystal clear with my teams that I’d rather see 10 hours and 6 hours that reflect your actual work on a daily basis then 8s across the board.

      There are managers (including my boss and others at my level) who are TERRIBLE about working extra, things like casually working double shifts for a week (and still working the next week) instead of prioritizing their work time differently. And I’m aware of at least one team where “log 80 hours but work more to get done” used to be common, and may still be for some team members. Anyone who works with me and makes comments along those lines that gets mild comment about “my teams charge all hours worked” and a link to the time charging policy. If they argue with me or get snotty about commitment to the company, they get a minor lecture about gifting the (very profitable) company their time. I think it’s important to note that my manager has not pushed back or made any comments about my (or my teams’) work schedule, availability, or total hours worked.

      I’ve noticed, based on other places I’ve worked, that any place/team/manager that has never had a timecard audit will often default on a team basis to what their manager does. Because I’ve gone through a time card audit (at a previous company), I’m a stickler for complying with policy because I know it’ll make my job easier if I/my team gets audited again.

      1. Plate of Wings*

        “my teams charge all hours worked” those are the teams people want to contribute on, preach it!

    14. spcepickle*

      I am a salaried mid-upper level manager (I manage managers, but there are totally people above me). The answer for me is 100% is depends. My team manages construction project, so in the late summer we are crazy busy – I am often on-site on weekends or at night depending on when construction is happening. I am also on call 24/7 – I carry my company cell phone everywhere and sleep with it when we have night work happening (This is only possible because my team is amazing and we have really good boundaries about when I am to be called). We have a pretty strict no vacation in August rule. I am in the office close to 5 days a week. I have weeks that I put in 60 hours.

      In February nobody cares and I might work 25 hours a week during out slow season. Making sure we have training schedule and pushing close out paperwork along.

      My boss is normally remote and way more engages with the politics and money side of what we do instead of the day to day contract execution. So I don’t tell him much about what I am doing. If he calls me I try to get back to him within 30 min or so, but because of the cell phone I can do that from anywhere.

      Long answer short – You should know your work flow better than anyone, be accessible for your team, get your stuff done, enjoy the perks of sometimes a work afternoon being on the couch with my cat, a cup of team, and book half heartily keeping an eye on my emails.

    15. new move*

      I’m in public accounting and completely burnt out after 6 years. I’m 99% confident I will be receiving an offer from a company I’ve interviewed with after a fairly long process. There have been no red flags throughout the process and I’ve liked the people I’ve met so far, but the team I will be managing is small (very different from what I’m currently managing) and the offer is most likely going to be around the same amount of money I’m currently making. Is it ever ok to make a lateral move? This will only be my second job, and I’m really running on fumes at work currently after 90+ hour weeks for years, so the idea of better hours and “less” responsibility sounds marvelous now. I really can’t imagine continuing to look and strive for a higher position or more money at this point, but can’t tell if I’m making a huge mistake.

    16. Somehow I Manage*

      I’m salaried, full-time and in a senior leadership position. I’m expected to be at work 37.5 hours each week, with the understanding that of course there may be things before or after regular hours from time to time. Slightly complicating things, one of my duties involves working with a set of customers who are sometimes unable to reach me during normal business hours, or during our time zone’s normal working hours. So I will get an occasional call from someone at 7pm, but generally people are also happy to leave a message and talk the next day too. I don’t generally check my email outside of my office hours. If someone who is important to my work needs me, they’ll call or text, which is not regular.

      My workplace is pretty flexible. I had a dentist appointment Monday morning and was 45 minutes late to work. No big deal. I ended up just working through the lunch hour, but it wouldn’t have been required. I’m trying to get an appointment scheduled for my dog as I type this (I’m on hold) and will just leave for that as needed. While I don’t have flex time or anything like that, there’s an understanding from the top that if someone needs to cut out early to go to the dentist or doctor or their kid’s school, we’re going to get those hours back. I’ll generally give my boss a heads up that I have something going on and need to duck out for a bit, and most of the time they’ll look up from what they’re doing and just give a thumbs up. We’ve had people take advantage, but because most don’t, we didn’t have to reset the rules just because of their actions.

      I think as far as what you could do, and I say this with appreciation for the optics of the question… Open the conversation with an example, like a dentist appointment. “Hey boss, when I’m scheduling my next cleaning appointment, how do I handle that appointment within the organization. Is it something that needs to be requested and documented? Am I using PTO or sick leave, or should I just plan to make that time up sometime shortly thereafter?” I think the answer to a question about a situation that most everyone encounters will give you some good guidance about how the company culture works.

    17. talos*

      I’m generally physically located at work from about 9:45 to 5:15 (yes, 9:45 is pretty late, but that’s when the employer-operated shuttle gets me here, so I have no remorse). That time often includes breakfast and always includes lunch, so in terms of hours worked per week I’m probably closer to 32?

      I’m a software engineer.

    18. WantonSeedStitch*

      Mid-level manager here in a non-academic role at a university. My technically expected hours are 40 per week. I do not actually work every single one of those hours, but am generally available for all of them, as I expect is the case with most people. If I want to bang off a little early one day (say, to prep for something right after work), I just let my boss know. In fact, just a few days ago, I said to my manager, “I’d like to sign off half an hour early, if that’s OK–I have a holiday celebration after work that was scheduled at the last minute.” She was fine with that. I’ve also had my reports (lower-level managers) say to me, “I’d like to sign off a little early today–I need to run an errand on my way home.” I’ve been fine with that.

      We have a culture here of “if you’re getting your work done, that’s what matters.” If leaving early means you’d be skipping an important meeting, well, you’d better have a good solid reason (“I’m feeling sick” or “my kid’s school needs me to come pick them up” for example). If someone made a habit of knocking off early on a frequent basis, they might hear “hey, you’ve been doing this a lot lately and the optics are bad when management does this. Please dial it back.” But once in a while, as long as your work is good, no one really cares.

    19. Alley-oop*

      Working in tech, so take it with a grain of salt.

      Standard hours are 8-5 (45 hours), but no one really does that unless it’s crunch time or a workaholic at this company. We will take breaks, go out for groceries, walk the dog, sign on late, go to the doctor, etc. Other companies did that at minimum, and I would have my boss expecting an answer up to 6 or 7, then still messaging until about 10 although I might not get back to it until the next day.

      Personally, I work notably less. I am a salaried senior+ IC, roughly mid manager level (anything above me would be an exceptionally senior IC or a director). I don’t manage anyone, but I manage an area of the business. I work very intently on very tangible output-oriented planned work for 2-3 hours a day, have meetings 1-4 hours a day, and communicate or rest or do casual background research or noodle on/sketch out/plan things, or even just take care of myself, the rest of the time. My best days are 2 hours outputting, 1-2 hours meetings, a couple hours of noodling and pop up chats with people about our ideas and concepts, and then admin catch-up.

      The way I get to this is my asking during interviews about responsivity culture. Does everyone expect fast responding on Slack? Do people check email 1-2 times a day, or all day long? Then I get a read on how my manager and any other leaders act and make sure I meet their expectation. Aside from that, I really go by what day something needs to be done, and not how many hours I’m spending.

      1. Alley-oop*

        *Other companies I’ve been at did do that 45 hours at minimumm and I would have my boss expecting an answer up to 6 or 7 at night.

        Sorry, my brain goes faster than my fingers.

    20. House On The Rock*

      I’m a middle-manager who works for an academic medical center managing a non-clinical (think IT) team of about 20 direct reports. On average I come in right around 40 hours a week, sometimes a few more sometimes a few less. My stated work hours are 8-4:30 but I’m able to be quite flexible with my time with the only requirement being that I block my calendar when I’m out.

      Practically speaking my job involves being in meetings most of the day most days of the week, but I definitely knock off a bit early if I’ve had a draining week and, when possible, will run errands and make appointments as needed even if it’s during working hours.

      I once saw someone say that how busy your job is doesn’t necessarily relate to the number of hours worked, but how many decisions you have to make and how many people you have to interact with – so by that metric, I’m extremely busy and working more than 40 hours on average would burn me out very quickly. Luckily my boss gets that and is really respectful of my time.

    21. Quinalla*

      45-50 hours, very occasionally higher 55-60 and very occasionally 40 hours only. My role is weird, but equivalent of a mid-level manager.

      If I am having a heavy travel week, it may creep up further with travel time included, but for me travel time is not the same intensity as actual work time, though it of course has other impacts, but I don’t have heavy travel weeks very often anymore. But easily 12-14 hour days 2-3 days a week back when it was a thing for me.

    22. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      When I was FT salaried (not manager) I was working 60+ a week and always being told I was leaving too early, which is part of why I quit, took an enormous pay cut and now am happily hourly and underpaid

      My spouse was a (reluctant) upper level manager, working 60+, on call 24/7, took his laptop on every vacation and I can’t remember a vacation he didn’t have to spend at least one day back at the hotel working. One particularly bad crisis he averaged 16 hour days, 7 days a week for 3 months straight including Christmas and had to send one of his employees to drive me home from surgery because he couldn’t leave. He quit about a year later, eventually went back as a non manager and is now working close to 40, sometimes a little over or under.

    23. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      I’m not a manager, but I’m at a similar mid-level position without any direct reports.

      I work 40 hours/week on average plus or minus up to 5ish hours for more or less busy times. I’ve been in FLSA exempt (no overtime) and nonexempt (earns overtime) versions of otherwise similar positions; when nonexempt I’m expected to keep it to 40 hours.

      I’ve had bosses in the past who allowed no flexibility, expected detailed timesheet accurate within 5 minutes, requests for variation must be submitted, in writing, at least a week in advance, no grace for unexpected occurrences like going home sick or arriving a few minutes late due to unexpected traffic. I got a stern talking to for “skipping out of work early” after having been seen leaving my office near the end of the day… to attend a meeting in the next department, or deliver misdelivered mail, things like that. A coworker whose job involved a lot of walking around (think, like, safety inspector or inventory taker) got in trouble with the same boss for not being at her desk enough. Gave me paranoia which lasted long after that boss was replaced by multiple generations of successors.

      My current boss allows a great deal of flexibility as long as the work gets done, and mostly only wants to know about what will affect coverage of essential site-based functions. I can flex my start/stop times by half an hour or so without mentioning it, as long as it’s not an everyday thing. If I need to change my schedule by more than an hour or more than a few days in a row, I need to arrange substitute coverage or let my boss know with enough lead time to arrange coverage for me. I’m not generally expected to justify flexing my hours or taking time off unless it negatively impacts my ability to get work done or creates difficulty for others –I can just do it, or just say, “I need to take sick leave for X date” or “I need to leave early for an appointment–sorry for the lack of notice, my provider had to reschedule around an emergency/cancellation” or “I’m planning to take vacation leave for Y and Z; I’ve got my projects caught up and Coworker A offered to cover A, but I haven’t found a sub for B” or “I need to arrive late and leave early a few days this week because of personal obligations, but I’m planning to take a shorter lunch and maybe do a bit of work from home in the evenings, so I should still be able to meet upcoming deadlines.”

      I think this works partly because of my current boss’ personality and business priorities, and partly because I’ve demonstrated reliability and performance exceeding expectations for decades –longer than my current boss has been in their role.

    24. Toni*

      I’m a mid-level manager and though no one is micromanaging my working hours and I have flexibility, my days often become so full of meetings, decisions, strategic thinking, and firefighting/catch up, that it feels like prior 50+/week jobs even if it’s closer to 40.

      But I can at least sign off at the end of my day and (usually) not have to reply to anything nights and weekends.

    25. Chauncy Gardener*

      CFO here. 50-70/week is pretty common. I did 80-100 a couple of start ups ago, but that was only for six months, thank goodness.

    26. TechWorker*

      I am contracted for 37.5 hours. I don’t do too much more than that – it’s a bit variable, but most of the time I am working on long term projects where nothing is ever ‘done’ & so there’s not a huge benefit to working extra hours – my problems will still be there after the weekend. I don’t feel like I can work late and then take full half days off but to be frank I also don’t really work late very often anyway.

      1. TechWorker*

        But I definitely do occasionally check chat/email late at night – mostly because I work with a lot of people in other timezones, so 5min of my time can save quite a lot of time overall.

    27. Cj*

      I’m a CPA that does taxes, so I work around 55 to 65 hours a week from January 1st through April 15th. this year it was worse during the last month of tax season because we had five people out with serious health issues of their own or family members. we are closed on Friday afternoon the rest of the year.

      salaried people take PTO in 4 Hour increments. if we aren’t going to be working because we have a personal appointment or something like that, and will be gone less than 4 hours, we don’t have to let anybody know ahead of time, just make sure it is on our calendar, and don’t need to use PTO.

      if, for instance, we are going to be out for 6 hours, we need to let somebody know ahead of time, but only need to take 4 hours of PTO because of the taking it in four increment thing.

      sometimes I don’t work 8 hours a day, but for stuff I don’t put on my calendar ahead of time because I don’t usually know I won’t be working for a while until the last minute. like I have to make a run to the pharmacy that is in a different town to pick up a prescription, or I get a migraine and cant work until my imitrex kicks in and I get rid of it. I don’t notify anybody about that, because I’ll be back working again in a reasonable amount of time to respond to anybody that needed me. my employer doesn’t have a problem with that, although I’m sure if it happened too often for too many hours you would be spoken to about it.

    28. Hours*

      I work 45-55/week most weeks in an environment that switched from a 37.5 hour default work week to a 40 hour default work week at the start of 2023.

      I can work <8 hours in a day if I'll still make 40 hours for the week. My biggest problem is a shift from set time off that expires to unlimited time off. While my current boss is good about granting time, there's no coverage and deadlines make it really difficult to take time off. I find myself somewhat resentful of coworkers taking time off around me.

      I'm a director who reports directly to the CEO in a staff position with no direct reports at the current time (but I live in hope that will change).

    29. Rain*

      Technology Director at a client-services based company. Everyone logs their hours, billable or not, and our “standard” work week is 36 hours.

      We offer a lot of flexibility and are fully remote. We have core hours of 10:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., but mostly for meeting scheduling.

      Our teams are welcome to work whatever hours they want as long as they are available when they need to be, the client doesn’t complain, and all their work gets done.

      Personally, I work about 45 hours a week, But I split my day up into two parts so it feels like a lot less.

    30. Coffee Snob/Knob*

      Mid-level manager here. Small-ish company so I report directly to the C-suite. They are pretty flexible on times I arrive or leave, have some leeway to run errands during lunch or something. There is no time tracking in the office, and they don’t monitor how many hours someone works. However, they do expect you to be reachable during office hours, so even if you arrive to office at 10, they expect you to be reachable by phone since 9. Leaving office at 5 for an appointment is also okay, again as long as you are reachable.

      However, my department is understaffed, so while my subordinates are happily pulling 37-42 hour weeks, I am working more like 60-80 hour weeks depending on workload. Clearly I don’t get paid enough.

  9. Red flag city*

    What kind of message does it send to the pee-ones when two members of management quit within the same week? For context this is a small satellite office of less that 20. 1 top manager, these two were next tier. Have always been owned by a larger company, but have had recent executive level leadership changes.

    1. ScruffyInternHerder*

      So when this has happened, I’m not going to lie to you, it sent one of my eyebrows up towards the ceiling tiles.

      Pay attention. That’s the message.

    2. I Super Believe In You, Tad Cooper*

      The fact this happened soon after executive leadership changes makes it a red flag. Not a leave-your-job-now kind of red flag, but one where it’s a good idea to pay close attention to any policy changes, changes in job expectations from on high, or sudden budget cuts. If any of those happen, I’d recommend thinking about leaving.

      Something similar happened at my last job, which was also owned by a larger company, and over the course of a year unreasonable expectations from the bigger org transformed my company from a lovely place to work with a great culture into a shadow of itself where cost-cutting and maximum output were king. Noticing early signs that things were changing put me in a good position to bail before stuff really hit the fan.

    3. ThatGirl*

      pee-ones?

      it could be a few things – when this happened at my workplace it’s because the two people in question were having an affair and misusing company funds to do it. either way… definitely pay attention.

      1. Tippy*

        Maybe they meant peons???

        For the actual question, I don’t think it’s a red flag. Maybe a little odd, but I wouldn’t think anything negative about it.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I assumed they meant peons, but I couldn’t tell if it was a deliberate misspelling or not (like “co-irker” or something).

    5. Panicked*

      I think it very much depends on the managers. Were they good, effective managers who supported their teams? Or were they ineffective and poor people managers who chose favorites? If the latter quit, I’d see it as a strong signal that the new leadership is taking a more vested interest in the culture and cleaning house. If it’s the former, I’d start job hunting immediately.

    6. I Have RBF*

      So, a lot of leadership churn can definitely be a resume generating event, meaning “Time to update your resume”, and maybe even start quietly circulating it. In any event, the departure of the top three execs in a business can mean anything including that the division is being eliminated, sold, repurposed (pivoted) or cheese pared. It’s a signal to watch for unwelcome changes, and be ready to jump if it goes badly.

  10. It’s finally Friday!!!*

    A few years ago I (female, currently mid 40s) started my job at a very easy going, small company where people were treated family. At the time the office was physically moving desks and offices around. I was temporarily put in a conference room to work. There was an executive in our company- we are about the same age but for lack of a better term Sally is a “whiz kid”- brilliant, smart, younger than most executives in the industry and beyond intelligent. Our specific jobs didn’t really interact much. She was leaving the company for another job at a sister organization. Believe it or not despite “loosing” her at the company was actually beneficial as both organizations work together frequently. Because of desks physically being moved Sally was put in the conference room the last few days. Our employment overlapped three days. We hit it off and had lots in common. We became fast friends. Even our spouses and kids get along.

    It is now years later. My company has all new executives, staff – normal business turnover as time moves on. Sally has become a fast rising star in the industry. Sally still has a relationship with our company but it’s in more of a professional level as she doesn’t know many of the newer employees.

    Recently I ran into Sally at a conference. A current executive who was at the conference with me was upset that I didn’t exploit this relationship more since Sally is now higher up and difficult to get meetings with. As I said Sally and my specific jobs don’t interact much so I’m baffled what I should have done. I asked Sally who said I’ve handled everything professionally and she’s always been available to our company as a resource. In fact she goes out of her way to make sure our company still has a priority relationship with her organization.

    Since the conference this specific executive has been a bit distant with me and when we do interact it’s please get Sally on the phone for us – you have her personal contact info (I don’t do this request). How would you handle this? I love where I work. Everyone else in the company is happy with Sally’s interaction without my involvement. I guess I naively look at sally as a friend and not a business contact. We never have talked business in our friendship.

    1. MsM*

      Ask Sally if she’s willing for you to put the executive in touch with her directly, since apparently they’re so eager to connect. I wouldn’t blame her for saying no, though, in which case you can tell them that whatever magical ability they think you possess to get time on her calendar simply doesn’t exist, and/or tell your supervisor they’re being weird about this.

    2. Alex*

      The exec is being super weird. What exactly does he want from her? And why can’t he use her professional contact information?

    3. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      ” she’s always been available to our company as a resource. In fact she goes out of her way to make sure our company still has a priority relationship with her organization.”

      I don’t see what more the exec is looking for from Sally – it sounds like she’s already doing a lot for the company

      1. It’s finally Friday!!!*

        She is! Sally’s new company has access and inside scoops to resources our company uses. She always passes along information to us.

        Personally I thing my company’s executive is upset that I know someone of such importance and can reach right away via phone call – yes I can reach Sally sooner than later but our phone calls are about movie times not work related

        1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

          I think this is likely. He’s a climber who’s affronted that you’re close to someone he considers “above your station” socially.

          1. Plate of Wings*

            And what he doesn’t realize is if LW contacts a friend aggressively like that, she won’t have her personal number for long. Haha

    4. jasmine*

      The executive is crossing boundaries. You don’t ask your employees to use their friends as tools for career advancement. Or “friends” because a true friend wouldn’t do that kind of thing.

      I would set clear boundaries with this executive. You aren’t following his requests, so it’s likely he’ll eventually stop asking when he realizes his pushing isn’t going to get him what he wants. If you do want a script, maybe, “I’m sorry, but I’d rather not use Sally’s personal contact information. She trusts me not to use it for business.”

      If you and Sally are close, then you can also tag team on this, where you give the executive what he wants and when she gets on the line, she puts her foot down.

      But if Sally isn’t comfortable with that, or you feel like she wouldn’t like it, it sounds like what you’re doing right now is pretty good.

      1. It’s finally Friday!!!*

        I’ve kept Sally informed in general but to be honest I don’t talk with her about work

      2. RecoveringSWO*

        I agree. Ultimately, I would prioritize my friendship with Sally over a relationship with one executive at my employer who may or may not stick around. If there’s another exec or higher up with judgement that you trust, I would consider also telling them about the situation. That way someone has your back in case the executive tries to stir something up regarding your reputation.

    5. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      Maybe tell him that using her personal phone for business reasons would likely annoy Sally and make her less receptive to your company?

    6. Manchmal*

      I wonder if you could explain your relationship with Sally to the executive by saying that she’s a “family friend” and you make it a point not to talk business with her. That it would be really odd and unwelcome by her to circumvent the normal channels of business contacts by going through you, and would likely have the opposite effect of damaging collegiality and goodwill between your organizations?

    7. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      “I consider Sally to be a personal connection more than a professional connection, and I don’t see how crossing that boundary is necessary or beneficial here. She’s always made sure to keep an open channel between our company and hers, so if you want to set up a meeting, give her a call.”

      If this person is an executive, they should have plenty of experience and a solid comfort level when it comes to connecting with other execs. And, in my opinion, they should also have a pretty well developed sense of professional boundaries – although in practice this seems to be too rare. I suspect there’s something else going on behind the scenes with your exec that’s causing their weirdness.

  11. Squarepro*

    I’ve accepted a temp hourly job, it will be my first time working for a US company (US citizen but worked abroad for the past 15 years) and I have no idea how benefits and deductions work in general. Do I have to accept their medical benefits since I already have another job that covers that part?
    Any tips/advice on navigating this new adventure is surely appreciated!

    1. ThatGirl*

      Either the company or agency will handle the payroll tax deductions, but they are unlikely to offer medical benefits for a temp job? Either that or it will be pretty expensive and you do not have to accept it, I’m sure you can opt out.

    2. E*

      I don’t think you ever have to take medical benefits, it’s generally presented as a choice.

      Deductions for income tax, social security, medicare, etc should get taken out by the payroll dept as long as you are a regular employee (not 1099 contractor)

      1. Paint N Drip*

        re medical benefits, correct you can choose to accept but if you don’t that’s totally fine

    3. Donkey Hotey*

      Technically, there’s this form you can fill out to properly calculate how much extra tax withholding you need. Or just make peace with knowing you will owe slightly more tax next April.

    4. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Some companies will require that you provide proof of medical coverage if you decline theirs, others will not. Most don’t even offer it to temp employees especially if they are less than full-time.

      As the rest stated if you are temp but regular employee they will do the deductions. If you are contract however, you will be responsible for making quarterly tax payments. Make sure you know.

    5. RedinSC*

      Just to get clarification, are you an actual employee of the company, or are they calling you a temp/1099 contractor? Because the tax situation is totally different if you’re contract.

      If you’re an employee, they will take the taxes out you will owe, in fact, if you make no changes, they’ll take out the max they can, probably resulting in you getting a refund next year. You can always add “deductions” to reduce the amount of taxes your company takes out. Or just leave as is and see how it plays out this year.

      Also, if they have a retirement plan, you can add money there, which will reduce your taxable salary. Sometimes things like 401Ks and such aren’t available for temp employees, so just know that it’s a good way to get some tax deferred savings started.

      If you’re contract or 1099, you need to make sure you’re saving enough to cover your taxes as well as the rest of the taxes, and there’s a lot of great resources for that.

      Typically you can decline medical coverage, but as mentioned you might need to show proof of coverage.

  12. RMNPgirl*

    Today’s my last day at my job!
    I have been job searching for a year now, ever since some things happened at my current company that made me realize I was never going to advance here. Luckily, I could take my time to find the right new job for me. I did have some other opportunities in the past year but backed out because they just weren’t right. I finally found a great new job that is a huge advancement in my career (Director level, I’ve previously only been at supervisor) and pays more than twice what I make now. Part of the pay increase is because I’m moving to a higher cost of living area for this new job but the cost of living is not twice what it is so I am still making out really well financially too.
    After today, I have a week to finish packing up my house and then I move to my new area. I did work in some time to settle in before starting my new job so I’ll hopefully have some decompression time after unpacking.
    If you’re miserable in your job and trying to find something else, just hang in there because you will find something eventually! I was getting pretty down about 6 months ago and feeling very stuck but then suddenly the right job appeared.

  13. Juicebox Hero*

    Carryover from the Mortification Week post from earlier this week, about the person who forgot their cockatiel was sitting in their hair and went back to work after lunch with it still sitting on their head:

    Accidental animals at work stories.

    Here’s mine. I used to work at a big old department store that had a pet department. Once in a while a bird would get loose, and since there were tons of places for a bird to hide in a big cluttered store, everyone would be told to watch out for the bird and call the pet department if you saw it.

    A cockatiel got loose and they were having a heck of a time finding it. Suddenly my department saw it – calmly riding the escalator up to the next floor. We just stood there and watched the cockatiel ride all the way up to the top, then it hopped off and vanished, before anyone thought to call the pet department. I still don’t know when, where, or if they ever caught the bird. Unfortunately, this was way before cell phone camera were a thing or it would have gone viral for sure.

    I also sold clothes for a monkey once (it was being trained as a helper for a disabled person) but unfortunately the monkey itself didn’t come in to shop.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      Our office is basement-level, and there are window wells outside to let light in. We have tons of rabbits in the area of our building, and on a couple of occasions, a bun has fallen down into the window wells and been unable to get out. They didn’t get hurt, and provided some fun window-watching entertainment for the staff until facilities folks got down there and scooped them into a bucket to get them out again.

      I’ve had no accidental pets at work, but one of my cats once thoughtfully dropped a catnip-stuffed toy chicken leg into my work backpack.

      1. Jay (no, the other one)*

        I once took a Nylabone to work because the dog dropped it in my bag and I was in a rush the next morning and grabbed the bag without looking at it.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      We had a student bring his horse to school. Apparently, another boy had refused to believe he owned a horse, so to his 13 year old mind, there seemed to be an obvious way to prove it, go home at lunchtime and return on horseback. We were all laughing that our principal probably never expected to have to say, “take that horse home right now!”

      I also once had a dog wander into my classroom and one or two of my students were terrified of dogs. This was like an Alsation; to be honest, I’m not too comfortable around them myself. So it was pandemonium. Another teacher came in and removed him.

      1. Mobius 1*

        I can’t decide whether I’d rather the kid have ridden the horse to school/led it on foot, or have brought it in a trailer.

        2. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

          My friend’s mother (decades deceased now), a teacher in Kentucky before her marriage in the 1930’s, rode a horse to work every morning. She also had stack and light the woodstove to heat the one-room schoolhouse before class. I’m assuming there was a pasture next to the school for the horse to use while she was teaching.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          No idea. Probably either somebody left a door open or he followed somebody when they were coming in. I think the door of our classroom was open, but how he got into the building, I don’t know.

          1. Desk Dragon*

            When my mother was a teacher, she was in her classroom during a free period and felt like she was being watched. She looked up from her desk and found herself eye-to-eye with the biggest dog she’d ever seen (Irish wolfhound). She told me she froze for a moment, then managed to squeak out something like “You’re not supposed to be in here,” at which point the dog turned around and left; it lived at a house next to the school and while she saw it in its own yard frequently after that, it never showed up for class again.

            1. allathian*

              That feeling of being watched is uncanny.

              When we lived in a rural village when I was a kid, I once saw a long-eared owl sitting on a telephone pole. I noticed it because I got that weird feeling of being watched, looked up and around and there it was. I was walking home by myself from a friend’s house when it happened, I was 10 or 11.

    3. Anon from the Gerstenslager*

      A good place for an old library story:
      I accidentally brought my cat on the bookmobile one day. My child liked to play in the camper portion of my small pickup when it was parked outside, and the cat must have climbed in there with her the night before. (This was in the ‘90s, we lived on a farm and my cats were allowed outdoors.)
      In a hurry to get to work, I didn’t notice he was back there until I arrived at the library, about a half hour commute from home. I heard him meowing as I pulled into the parking lot. There wasn’t time to go home and back before the scheduled bookmobile run, so I ran a quick errand to a convenience store, got food and litter, and set him up under my desk on the passenger side.
      We had two stops at elementary schools that day and he mostly slept through everything under the desk there, but he came out to meet some of the children and accept admiration and pats. He was remarkably calm the entire day.
      I never told my boss (or anyone at work) that this happened. I was very lucky that this was my extroverted child-loving cat, and that the kids were thrilled to see him.

  14. Tradd*

    Our recruiter passed info on a possible candidate to us. Person looks good, but they have a non-negotiable religious accommodation of requiring half days on Friday and a private place to pray at the office. Our HR people are useless and have distributed legally questionable policies before, so I’m doing my own homework.

    We are a small office. It’s all open plan aside from two private offices for executives and a conference room in constant use for meetings and phone calls in private. We really cannot accommodate someone needing a private spot on a regular basis. Lots of calls or meetings are last minute.

    We can’t accommodate the half day on Friday. To reiterate from previous week’s comments of mine, regular WFH not possible as owners hate it. Period. End of story. Not worth fighting. And flex hours not possible either. Owners refuse to consider anyone for part time. How can we reject this candidate without ending up being accused of religious discrimination? I have no problems working with religiously observant Jews or Muslims. I’ve done so multiple times in the past. We just can’t accommodate the requirements. Job posting indicates hours and onsite, both strict requirements, so I don’t know why recruiter passed this candidate along. I’ve not talked to candidate yet.

    Yes, I know the owners’ stances on some things are ridiculous, but these are the constraints I have to work with.

    1. Mo*

      It’s not religious discrimination if you would refuse anyone who couldn’t work full days on Friday, no matter the reason, because you need someone who is doing the work during that time. I’m a little more skeptical that it would be impossible to accommodate private prayer, but that’s a moot point if you need someone who will regularly work full days during office hours every day of the week.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I mean, they’re not available to work the full range of hours you need? This would be the same if their need for half of Friday off wasn’t religious.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        If they needed it off to watch kids, work another job, do a volunteer thing, just hated working Friday afternoons, whatever, the outcome would be the same.

      2. Tradd*

        I’m being extra cautious because it seems to be increasingly common for people to sue for anything these days.

        1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

          They can sue, but they can’t win. Making all your policy and hiring decisions based on who might sue is a recipe for major dysfunction. As long as you are operating in good faith and within the law, you’re fine. It’s not illegal to pass on a candidate who can’t fulfill the core requirements of the job.

    3. Alex*

      “The owners hate it” is not really a business reason to not be able to accommodate a half day on Friday. Is there an actual *reason* besides their feelings? Like is there work that this person needs to do that must be done on a Friday afternoon, or is just this “the owners are difficult” kind of thing? Because I don’t think that would hold up in court.

      As for a private spot to pray, asking the candidate to specify exactly what they mean and showing them the space to see if it could work for them would be more accommodating than just deciding there is no place possible.

      1. Tradd*

        The “owners hate it” is the WFH thing. Yes, there is work that has to be done all day, every day. I’m a customs broker and this in international shipping. Freight doesn’t stop moving. Whoever takes this position will have a specific set of customers to handle. If you’re not in the office, someone else has to do your stuff, handle phone calls and emails from the customers, as well as any shipment stuff. There’s a lot of air freight these days due to Red Sea situation and the resulting delays in ocean shipping, so very last minute. This is not a job where you can take time off or be out of this office and someone else doesn’t have to cover your workload.

    4. ChattyAli*

      As another commenter said, it’s likely not religious discrimination if the policies are applied equally to someone of any religion – if someone wanted half days on Fridays due to a child’s travel sports schedule and you’d tell them no too, then it’s not discrimination. I’d question if that’s a legit policy though. Do people never call in sick? Take vacation on Fridays? I also question the private space issue. What happens when they have an employee who needs private space to pump?

      1. Tradd*

        No employees currently with that young of children. In this office, only one person has a kid under 18. We skew much older currently.

        Sick days, etc., are one thing. Someone consistently wanting a day for something else, no way.

        1. ThatGirl*

          OK but you could feasibly hire a younger woman who would one day need a private pumping space and your company would be legally required to provide it. “It’s never come up before” is not a great excuse.

          And I get it, these are not your policies, but you also shouldn’t excuse the company’s lack of foresight.

              1. Dust Bunny*

                . . . because he’s not in control of that decision.

                And also, the applicant still can’t work Friday afternoons.

                1. ThatGirl*

                  It’s not so much about this applicant – if Fridays are a must-work, they’re a must-work.

                  But there are a lot of things I can’t directly control that I still CARE about. I am 43 and don’t have kids and never will, so I don’t need a private pumping space. I still care about there BEING one. If a company is this willing to shrug off not just care for employees but legal requirements, it doesn’t speak well of them.

          2. AvonLady Barksdale*

            And also, if this becomes a problem and the owners are refusing to budge, then… this is their problem, not yours. If the company gets sued, then that’s not necessarily your concern on a micro level.

            I’m not quite sure what you’re looking for here. Your company has some bad/annoying/outdated policies. You recognize that, ok, great. It makes hiring harder. Ok, sure, it definitely does. But if no one is willing to be flexible then there’s nothing anyone can say or do, it is what it is.

            Are you willing to go to the owners and tell them, with examples, that their rigidness is causing hiring issues?

            1. Tradd*

              It would likely mean I’d be fired if pushed back on the WFH thing. Although they have to replace me within 4 months to be able to keep doing customs clearances. My individual customs broker licensed qualifies the corporate license. Things have gone south the past couple of weeks. Nothing that was my fault. A major customer has been going downhill for a while and is probably going out of business. So that’s a good chunk of business gone (it had already been decreasing for a while). Owners are in a continually pissy mood and I’m not risking a good job to push back on something like this. With the lost business, I wouldn’t be surprised if they decided not to hire someone for my dept. anyway. Workload is down. It’s a small, privately owned company. Small enough that FMLA doesn’t apply to this company. I’m actually beginning to look for something else, but the positions I’ve seen so far would require me to take a $20K-$30K pay cut.

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Is there a minimum size of employer below which a separate pumping space is not required? e.g. If an employer has only 2 employees and tents only 1 room it would be a significant expense to add renting a 2nd room.

        I presume even a tiny firm has to cope with people being away sick or on vacation, but that is much rarer than every Friday.

      3. Ask a Manager* Post author

        This is not correct. You are required to make reasonable religious accommodations when they don’t cause undue hardship (the bar for which is very high), even if you wouldn’t accommodate an employee for a non-religious reason.

        Your employer sounds like they are poised to break the law. You need legal advice here, not advice from anonymous internet commenters, some of which is wrong on the law. I am closing this thread.

    5. Massive Dynamic*

      Does your company contract with an outside lawyer or legal firm that can counsel you all on this? The owners really are opening themselves up to serious litigation if they remain this inflexible. Someone above called out pumping – it’s a legal requirement that a private space is available for people who are pumping milk. Sounds like the owners need to be schooled about reasonable accommodations in the only way that it might make sense to them – to avoid a lawsuit.

      For the fact that you say someone really does need to work on Friday afternoons in the position that you are hiring for, is it possible to flex that time with another employee so that they get shorter hours earlier in the week in exchange for extended Friday coverage to handle their workload and the new employee’s? This type of thing is something that other employees might be open to – impossible to know unless you ask them.

      1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        +1. Tradd, please don’t listen to commenters who don’t identify themselves as employment lawyers saying what they think employment law is. If you are thinking of making this decision because you know the owners would make this decision, don’t do that. If you think this is the best person, pass that info along with what they’re asking for as an accommodation and say that’s a legal question that you think the firm should get advice on.

        1. DawnShadow*

          This is a great answer. I agree: the awkward comes from the owners, send it back to the owners. Make them be the ones to say yes/no. I also really like the advice that you should tell the owners they should consider getting legal advice before answering.

          It reminds me of various answers from Alison about when your managers, etc, have a problematic policy: instead of telling them they are wrong, ask if “we” could get legal advice on that because “we” could possibly be liable due to (specific law). Gives them an out (doesn’t put them in the Bad Guy chair) and makes it sound like you aren’t being divisive, but still brings up the problem in a way that makes it important *to them* to fix.

    6. Picard*

      You said small office. How small exactly?

      “According to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), employers must make reasonable accommodations for employees’ religious beliefs or practices unless it would cause a substantial burden on the business. This includes small businesses, but they may not be required to comply. For example, allowing an employee to take Sundays off may be an undue hardship for a small company that generates limited profits, but it probably wouldn’t be for a larger employer. When deciding if an accommodation would cause an undue hardship, employers should consider all relevant factors, including the nature, size, and operating cost of the business”

      That said, it sounds like the Friday afternoons off would not work for your company regardless of reason. The private space for praying would have to be worked out – how often do they pray? Is there ANY space that might work? Something nearby that can be rented?

    7. Qwerty*

      Frame this the same as if the recruiter told you a candidate needed as salary of X or to work from home every Tuesday (which isn’t possible at your company). They are negotiating a deal breaker up front so no one wastes their time.

      The half-day Fridays does not work for your company. Tell the recruiter than unfortunately this role requires being reliably in the office Mon-Fri 9-5 (or whatever your hours are) and ask if the candidate wants to continue.

      Don’t bring up the private place to pray – that one you would likely be legally required to accomodate, the same as someone needed a place to pump.

      I don’t see it as rejecting the candidate. This would not be possible at a lot places – one person getting every Friday afternoon off would prevent the rest of the team from taking Friday afternoons off at most of my jobs (on the flip side, some companies end early every Friday). Give them the information they need to make a choice for themselves.

    8. HannahS*

      IANAL but I think you would have to prove that not being in the office would constitute an undue burden, which is a legally defined concept. “The owners hate it” is not an undue burden, and so rejecting someone for that reason could be considered religious discrimination.

      It’s not clear to me if the candidate is requiring a half-day off, meaning that they would only work 4.5 days, in which case it would be easy to say that you’re hiring for a full-time position only. I can’t imagine that the law would require you to hire a part-time worker for a full-time position.

      But, if they’re asking for one afternoon of working from home, that’s different. I can imagine a situation where an orthodox Jew wants to work from home on Friday afternoon so that they aren’t driving after sunset; they can just shut down their computer when Shabbat happens at 5:00 in the winter. If that’s the case, again, you’d probably have to prove that having them work from home is an undue burden. If the job is largely calls and meetings, it probably wouldn’t be an undue burden, legally, to have someone doing that remotely.

      All this said, it’s clear that you feel you have no option other than to reject them, legally or not, because HR is useless and the owners are rigid. I would remind you that actually, you can choose not to engage in discrimination. Anyone can choose to have integrity.

      1. Tradd*

        Yes, the candidate wants to work 4.5 days a week, which doesn’t work for us. It’s a full time position. And NO WFH.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      I had a colleague who had to be home before sundown on Fridays for religious reasons. Easier to just say a half-day for scheduling purposes, but the time he left varied significantly with the season, tied to the time of sunset. We handled it by having him on an alternate work schedule where he stayed an hour longer the other days of the week. Given your line of work not sure about that as a solution, but it worked for us.

      1. Ali + Nino*

        As an observant Jew I have had this accommodation in my workplace; for example, if I needed to leave at 3 pm on Fridays, I would just add on an extra half hour of work Monday through Thursday. Another option might be half day on Friday + the remainder of Fridays work being done Saturday night or on Sunday. I’m not sure that’s feasible with this particular role, but just another option to consider. Good luck!

    10. Hyaline*

      Would you bring this person in for an interview if these constraints weren’t spelled out? If not, then no worries, move along! If you would, but you know the owners would not sign off on this hire due to their requests, I’m not sure why the legalities become *your* problem–if the applicant decides to sue for religious discrimination (on what basis? what insight would they have into this process to know it was in any way based on their accommodation requests?) it’s going to come down not on you, but on the owners. So I’m not quite sure what you’re asking here–you seem to have only one option, which is reject this candidate, and no recourse to change anything about the process at a higher level that would give you more options.

      FWIW I think not being able to provide a private space to pray is…not great? This seems a very small request and a supply closet or temp-walled space would suffice. I can see how the half-day Friday could be an undue burden, but oooof…if an employee needed to take an afternoon every week off for FMLA covered medical intervention, how would you handle it? You must handle this regularly when someone is sick or takes PTO? It seems like your owners are running the margins very thin and everyone’s internalized this as “just how it is” without questioning it, and that lack of questioning from everyone could be losing opportunities for good employees who just have a slight schedule hiccup.

        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          If you’re fewer than 15 employees, then Title 7 doesn’t apply Federally so you may be good. A lawyer would know more.

      2. Tradd*

        No, we wouldn’t be bringing this candidate in if the reason for having every Friday off was for a non-religious reason. This candidate want to work 4.5 days. WFH was not brought up. I brought it up in the post as that’s a common solution other places. Not here. Owner hates WFH. Period. Flex Time is not an option, for reasons I won’t get into.

        I do stuff from home pretty often on weekends, but if I called in one weekday saying I was going to WFH? I’d be written up.

    11. Parenthesis Guy*

      Presumably your company offers PTO, yes? Presumably your company has some contigency plan in case an employee quits unexpectedly. There’s got to be some redundency involved because otherwise you’re stuck when something goes wrong. I understand it’s more convenient for you if there aren’t flex hours, but that may not be a reason to allow you to religiously discriminate against candidates. This probably explains why the recruiter passed along the resume.

      This means you shouldn’t tell the candidate or the recruiter that you aren’t considering their candidacy due to their religious requirements unless you want to be sued. You should look at the employees resume and see whether this person is qualified. If so, you may want to consider an interview and trying to find a reason to hire someone else.

      If that fails, you should have your owners talk with a lawyer and try to figure out your legal obligations.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Every Friday afternoon is very different to coping with the much less frequent sick leave or vacation – and this employer sounds so difficult we don’t know if they even offer any PTO or if all absences are unpaid!

        An employee quitting would be handled either by reducing the amount of work done or by requiring existing employees to work extra hours. Neither is reasonable to do every Friday just because of a new religious employee.

    12. DannyG*

      Two thoughts:
      1: Is your office stand-alone facility or part of a larger facility? If the latter there might be a suitable place somewhere in the complex that might serve for the prayer room.

      2: Does the nature of the work absolutely require presence on Friday afternoons? If not would working 9 hours M-Th followed by 4 on Fridays?

  15. zhwb*

    Which is better: as a manager, wait to give notice until all members of my team are back from time off? Or give notice earlier, to make things easier for my boss, and have some of my team find out before others?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Can you do this in stages? i.e. tell your boss so that she can start making plans, with the understanding that you’ll tell your team when X returns from their time off? At a previous job, my manager always wanted to have a plan for moving forward when someone quit, so once you resigned to her you’d usually end up waiting a couple of days to announce it more broadly.

      That said, I don’t think you need to wait until people come back. If they were going to be on vacation for the duration of your notice period, you certainly wouldn’t wait! If you’re concerned about the people who are off finding out from the rest of the team, you can ask them to keep the news to themselves so that you can tell the others, but I wouldn’t count on that being practical. People are going to find out, and it’s super common for people to be away when someone resigns.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        * always wanted to have a plan for moving forward before announcing the resignation, so that that person’s reports would know who they’d be reporting to temporarily, if they were going to be taking on any additional work until a replacement was found, etc.

    2. EA*

      I vote give notice earlier! The more time the better, in most situations, from the perspective of the boss who will have to plan for coverage or maybe step in.

    3. Qwerty*

      Tell your boss earlier and come up with the timeline for when to tell other people. It is really normal for there to be a few days between the boss finding out and the team finding out, that way you can lay out the transition plan with the announcement

      1. Camelid coordinator*

        One of my least favorite bosses once wanted me to call into a special meeting while I was on a family vacation in a location a couple time zones earlier. This was of a piece with how he treated my time, he was always moving or cancelling our meetings. Reader, I did not call in and found out later the purpose of the meeting was so that he could tell the team he was leaving. I was thrilled to have missed it and that he was leaving.

    5. Somehow I Manage*

      I’d generally err on the side of making things easier for your boss. That’ll be better in the long run because you’re leaving no matter what, and ease for the boss probably equates to ease for your team. It sucks that your team may find out at different times, but if you notify your boss then send a message to your team all at once, maybe even offering an apology that you can’t address everyone at the same time in person, it’ll be OK. And consider too that best laid plans can always go sideways. You could wait until the team is all back, and someone could still call out sick.

  16. Jen*

    I’m a new non-supervisory GS-14 in a federal government role and am struggling a bit with time management. Over the last six months I’ve been hired, I’ve realized that I don’t have the same bandwidth my coworkers do for things like sitting around and having lengthy discussions on various work and non-work related topics, but I find myself getting drawn in, or the conversation will shift from work to personal matters while I’m there. My coworkers seem content to stay later and make up the time and the work, but it’s leaving me tired and frazzled. Does anyone have any good tips for how to manage your time (really, yourself) in this type of situation, where there’s very little day-to-day oversight or direction from a superior?

      1. Jen*

        They start off as me going to Coworker A’s office to ask about something, and then Coworker B will also show up. So we’ll be talking about that thing, it’s a productive discussion about not only that specific thing but things going forward, and then we’ll start talking about the thing at a high-level, birds-eye view that we may not *technically* need to get into that day, and then personal matters will come up and before you know it, it’s no longer 7:30am, it’s 9:15am and time for our formal group meeting, and then it’s time to talk about the new action items, and suddenly it’s lunch, then they want coffee, and then it’s technically time to go because we got there at 7:30am and suddenly it’s 4pm. That’s what I would call an extreme example that’s only happened maybe twice, but it’s so easy for me to get wrapped up in doing things with other people that it’s only looking back I realize my time would have been more productive (and I would have been less frazzled) if I took more time to myself in my own office.

        1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          Is this a time blindness thing or a don’t know how to get out of the conversation politely thing?

          1. Jen*

            It’s a little bit of both. I have ADHD and am naturally drawn toward these types of conversations and don’t tend to factor in the ramifications until later.

        2. Reba*

          Sometimes I block of my tasks in my calendar with meeting reminders and all that. Makes it easier for me to perceive the day passing and also say “oops gotta go” when a conversation is running long.

        3. Caramel & Cheddar*

          I’ve had this happen to me and I think there are different approaches depending on where you are. If you’re at Coworker A’s office, once you notice things are going off topic, find a reason to excuse yourself, e.g. the kettle you put on must be boiling by now, you need to use the bathroom, there’s something urgent you have to do at 8:30am, etc. Have a handful of excuses you can cycle through to get you out of there.

          For if someone comes to your desk and you’re trapped there, you can usually employ the above, just re-framed slightly, e.g. “Sorry, Fergus, I need to run to the bathroom before my next meeting!” or “Thanks for letting me know about Thingamajig, but I need to get back to working on the TPS report for Fergus.”

          I’m assuming part of the problem is not knowing that so much time has passed, but I’m wondering if there’s a way to let you know when 15 mins (or however long) has passed, i.e. set a timer on your phone before you go to someone’s office and then let it vibrate in your pocket once the time is up, etc.

          I haven’t perfected this by any means myself, but writing it out gives me renewed motivation to try it out next week.

    2. Anonymice*

      I work in a place just like this. For many of us it’s lovely and we work overtime to compensate, but I can see that for some it would be wearing. And we do have people who just gracefully excuse themselves — “Well, nice talking, must get back to (whatever project you are working on).” No one is offended. Hopefully that would work for you also. And sometimes that person does stay for a bit, so no one thinks they’re being unfriendly.

      1. Anonymice*

        I should clarify — we don’t get paid overtime! We just stay late to make up for the time we may have spent schmoozing.

    3. not nice, don't care*

      I have some of this going on in my job. It’s tough when it’s my boss doing the time sucking, and I’m known for being a solo flier. And we don’t work overtime, so anything that gets bumped by these convos is bumped to the next day.
      For me it has helped to lean into my rep as a friendly loner. Ppl know I’m a nice person with issues, so when I announce ‘welp, my meter is up, see you at the meeting’ they laugh and continue chatting without me.

    4. spcepickle*

      I would highly suggest getting others involved. My second in command was doing 1/2 time FMLA with a new baby for 6 months and he was super protective over his time.
      He and I had a regular check in scheduled and we set priorities. We also made sure the managers who report to us were aware of these priorities and sometimes reminded of his work schedule. This meant we could all work together give him the space to get his priorities done and we knew that if he walked past us all gabbing in the hall or excused himself at the end of a meeting when it had degraded into just chatting he was not being rude, just focused.

      In practical terms for you that might mean:
      Having a schedule that is slightly off your teams- I work better in the afternoon, so I often arrive an hour after everyone so I have time at the end of the day where nobody is the building.
      Keeping you calendar up to date and having time blocked off that you can use an excuse to leave meetings
      If at all possible get use to saying no to meetings – It took me a year to feel confident saying I will not attend meetings without an agenda and I am not attending meetings scheduled for more than an hour if my part is like 15 min
      Learn some people manipulation technics – People come into my office and start talking, if I am done talking to them I pick up my water bottle and start to walk to the kitchen, they will follow me and often get side tracked by someone else – I can slip back to my office alone.

    5. Girasol*

      I don’t know government but I’ve seen this done in business by whole teams who are evaluated more on hours spent on the job than on results. They’d yak away the day and then work furiously in overtime to show how loyal and hard working they are, hoping either for raises or to be passed over for layoffs. I know that sounds weird but I’ve seen it several times. Does that possibly fit your situation?

      1. Jen*

        No, we are hybrid so people are in and out without keeping track of “optics” in terms of working late hours.

  17. EA*

    Have you job searched while planning a cross-country or international move? I’d love to hear about your experience! What worked and didn’t work? How much did you share in the cover letter about your plans?

    1. Spacewoman Spiff*

      Last summer I started job searching about 6 weeks before moving. I was returning to my home city, so I always made sure to mention that in my cover letters, with clear info on when I would be back and that I’d be happy to travel for interviews. (I mean, I wouldn’t really, but I counted on not getting to that stage until I was in my new/old city.)

      The hardest part of it was that interview requests started rolling in while I was deep in packing mode. I set up one little corner of my bedroom to be the “interview zone,” with books arranged just on the top shelf of my bookcase, the pictures still on the wall there. Everything else was in boxes and a disaster, I had to drag a little nightstand and dining chair into that corner and rig them up as my “desk” for Zoom interviews, because if I sat at my actual desk the mess would all be visible. I found everyone was super flexible with scheduling my interviews; during initial screens my move tended to come up, and I’d share the dates of my move as the only ones I wouldn’t be available for interviews.

      It was pretty stressful moving at the same time that I interviewed, but I wound up getting one of the jobs I interviewed for during that time. (In fact, my second zoom interview happened after I’d moved, and there was a huge leak in my apartment, and I had to find a place outside of my apt to interview while maintenance was there…I felt beyond scattered.) My main advice would be to maybe plan your “interview zone” a little more in advance than I did…I literally threw it together in a panic one day, not having expected to start Zoom interviews yet…and also to give yourself some grace and extra relaxation time (as much as you can!) while you’re planning all these big changes. Things will probably go wrong and you won’t feel like you’re interviewing at your best if you’re getting close to the move, but I found all my interviewers very understanding.

    2. Roland*

      I did once, international move. No cover letters (software engineer, no one reads them) but I was clear to everyone I talked to that the move was happening for sure and the timeline was X. Only one place balked at all online interviews – the rest either operated that way anyway or were fine making an exception. This is an industry that’s normally ok with longer breaks between accepting and starting so other than the one company who wanted to interview in person, I don’t think it held me back from any opportunities. The real trouble was the time zone difference which made communication and scheduling difficult. I’d say be ready to be flexible but not too flexible, you’ll never be at your best at weird hours.

    3. Moving On*

      When I was moving cross country, I made sure to be very explicit on the dates I’d be arriving and would put it high up on a cover letter because I know a lot of people skimming might check out my address and move on. I also didn’t want to outright put my new state without context just to bypass that chance because I had a couple months to go and if they wanted to meet in person or needed someone ASAP, that would be an extra layer to deal with. I’d say on my resume “City, State (As of June 30, 2020) or whatever and mention it in my cover letter. I had a lot of success that way! Was able to find a job without much hassle or thinking up mind games to get past crappy employers.

    4. Laura*

      I did when we relocated for my spouse’s job – I had “relocating to _ metro area as of July 2021” at the top of my CV at first, and once we found a rental and signed a lease I used that address. Covid was still in play so everyone was still doing virtual interviews. In my cover letter I just mentioned that I was relocating to _city_ at _date_ though I did go into it more during my interviews – I ended up accepting a job at the same company that my spouse works at but had some really good interviews at other companies as well. I think there was one potential job where my move date was a little too far away to accommodate but it wouldn’t have been as good a fit anyway.

      1. Laura*

        I meant to mention – I applied end of June, had interviews in July, offer mid-Aug, went back and forth negotiating (Thanks, AAM!), signed end of Aug, started beginning of Oct. Their process is looooong.

    5. Trick or Treatment*

      I work in an industry that typically doesn’t do cover letters, which can make it trickier because you need to convey everything via resume.

      When I was starting the search and we weren’t sure yet where exactly we’d live, I was putting my location as “New area, New country (relocating from old country)” and if their ATS asked for precise address, I gave my current one. Not sure if that harms your chances, but I did get a few recruiter screens where I just explained, gave them the month we’d move and that we were moving for my partner’s new job.

      Later when we were closer to moving and knew the exact city we wanted to live in, I put “New city, new country” as my location on the resume, but kept my old phone number (with country code from the old country) in it. That didn’t cause any hiccups, and for recruiter screens I framed it as “in the process of moving” (because that was also my reason for looking for a new role). It was trickier when their ATS needed a precise address though. For the job I ended up taking, I just put the address of a place I was viewing the next week. I did not move to that address in the end, but I just updated them on my actual new address before starting. I don’t think that strategy always works unless you know your timelines well and you’re definitely moving early enough.

  18. hmmmm*

    What are some potential cons of a fully remote job? There seems to be a lot of remote-only fans here, but I’ve never had a fully remote job and I worry it could be too isolating, even for an introvert like myself. As a soon-to-be parent of two kids under 3 (both of whom will attend daycare), the flexibility of no commute is appealing, but I also like seeing my coworkers in person at least some of the time. I don’t know if I should rule out applying to remote jobs entirely, or if the flexibility would totally outweigh the potential isolation and monotony of only working from my house (or the occasional coffee shop).

    1. Alex*

      Sometimes it is harder to be “seen” by your coworkers, or especially managers, when starting a remote job. Relationships are important in most workplaces and it is an impediment to that. Not impossible–Teams and Zoom, etc., can help–but it does put some distance between you and your coworkers. This is especially true of there are a lot of people who are in the office all the time while you are in the minority being remote.

      I’m actually a big fan of remote work and think the pros outweigh the cons, but it is definitely subjective and a personal preference.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      I’m fully remote and we communicate on a regular basis through Teams. Mostly text messages, I will often have meetings with my boss on a weekly or more basis. I’m an introvert, and this is the perfect mode of communication for me, so maybe look at how they stay in communication. Teams/Zoom seems to work for a lot of people; email-only communications would have me feeling a little isolated.

    3. Hyaline*

      I’ve never done fully remote, but from friends, the “fully” is somewhat relative–some are really truly never in-person, but a few of them have regular staff meetings or other facetime (their jobs are, obviously, local). So that’s something to check for–if the day-to-day is 100% remote but there are some opportunities for in-office meeting days, work days, etc., maybe that’s a good fit.

      You could also look into, if you do find a job that’s fully remote, regularly working at a coworking space or even your local library (ours ends up being a free coworking space and there are definitely regulars). The flexibility might also allow for other regular out-of-the-house elements to your routine, like going to the gym, a midweek worship service, a lunch hour meetup or book club (check your local library or college campus!).

    4. yikes*

      i have flexibility in my work, i can wfh pretty much whenever. but i prefer coming to the office and do so almost every work day. i think it helps with creating a community and culture of working together. the benefits are abstract but considerable – in my opinion. that being said, i fight strongly to keep the ability to allow my team the flexibility of wfh as frequently and often as i can as long as they’re meeting their job requirements. i do believe that people who wfh lose out on some intangible benefits that could have some negative effects. but that’s for them to decide, as long as they’re performing at acceptable levels. and that’s my job as a manager to monitor. most of my team is wfh at least 3 days a week, and multiple people wfh always. my team is happy. the people who want to come in do so. it works very well for my team.

    5. Jay (no, the other one)*

      My last job was mostly remote – we went into the office twice a month before the pandemic, when we switched to completely remote. Turns out even that twice a month was important to me to feel connected to my team. As time went on and we had some turnover I found myself working with a team of people I had mostly never met in person, and I didn’t like that. That’s me.

      Also I wasn’t working from home – I was doing home visits so I was out of the house most of the time. I wouldn’t want to actually be in my house all day. I would feel cooped up. And even my most introverted friends craved contact with grownups when their kids were really little.

    6. Angry bird*

      Someone who is an expert on this might be better positioned to speak on it, but if you’re far from other workers you might not qualify for FMLA and things of that nature pop up.

    7. jasmine*

      Ask about how company culture is maintained and teammates stay connected in a remote environment. Some remote companies will have in-person get togethers one or twice a year. Some will have socializing events over Zoom. Some companies offer benefits around coworking spaces (where they’ll pay for you to use one).

      A fully-remote company is different than a company where only a few people are remote. The remote folks in the latter case are probably going to be more isolated.

      The nature of your job also makes a difference. Is it a job where you have to talk to others to get work done or is it something that’s done in a silo?

        1. hmmmm*

          The potential job I have in mind is for a small organization whose employees are scattered around the country. So that wouldn’t be an option in this case. I am mostly concerned about remote jobs where there is no “local office” option and how I would feel in that case.

      2. Cj*

        I have a fully remote job, and my work requires me to be in contact with quite a few co-workers by teams messages, video meetings, or telephone calls everyday, and it makes a huge difference.

        there isn’t as much chat about non-work stuff as there is around the water cooler in an office, but I found that once you get to know your coworkers a little bit through work conversations, we do eventually start talking about personal things also.

    8. Exhausted on Main*

      Autistic introvert who works from home here, working for a company where I’m the only person in my time zone.

      I truly love it. I went from retail to an office gig, and the change from constantly being on edge because someone could come through the door any moment to managing my own information input has been lifechanging. I also worried about it being isolating, but our work Slack is fairly active, my coworkers are awesome, and it’s just been a good fit all around.

      I think my biggest cons are that some days it’s REALLY hard to get focused and get going, but I tend to move to a different room or walk up to the library. Also my toilet paper bills went up.

      It’s really what you make of it- monotony at home is infinitely more enjoyable than monotony at an office, IMO. Just remember to leave the house sometimes.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        Thanks for this!! Also an autistic introvert, I’m suffering “constantly being on edge because someone could come through the door any moment” now and have been waffling about remote work being any better (constantly on edge about missing an email or chat or something) but this is promising

    9. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m fully remote and have been for about 5 years now. It’s challenging for sure. I’m an ambivert and value my alone time but I also get energized by being in different spaces around different people. I get around the challenge by working from other places when I can (usually a coffee shop or a breakfast place) and thankfully I have flown to our HQ a few times. I was at my last job for two years and met exactly one colleague in person (COVID restricted travel) and that sucked, but I managed. I have developed chatty relationships with some colleagues here and we occasionally set up time just to talk about whatever, and that is SUPER helpful.

      I am about to move to a town where my walking-distance options will be significantly reduced and I will have to be more intentional about getting out somewhere. If you can identify some third spaces for working, that will go a long way, I think. I’ve come to value the flexibility I have, especially since I started working with a personal trainer (no need to shower first thing!) and my elderly dog needs more walks. But yes, it can be isolating if you like to be around people. That can be overcome if you work at it.

    10. Saving PDFs Not Lives*

      I did find full time WFH to be too much for me, personally. I felt myself becoming more isolated, and also having a harder time disconnecting from work. I think if I were to accept another full time remote position, I’d want to find a third location to work from, and also plan for more structure in my work and leisure time. It was just too easy to stay inside my apartment all the time! However, I think this was due to my personality and a lack of planning on my part. Now that I understand those risks. I think I’d have a better time of it.

    11. Mimmy*

      This is something I’m wrestling with myself. I don’t have any childcare / family obligations, but I’ve been wanting a job that doesn’t require going to the office every day (for me, it’s 3 days a week). I can’t drive and the unpredictability of public transportation is very stressful (I often use paratransit, and their routes of often inconsistent and sometimes make zero sense).

      When I’m not working with students or in a meeting, I really enjoy having time and space to focus on what needs to get done. I have that space both at home and at my office. Also, my tolerance for a lot of noise (e.g., lots of people milling around, chaotic energy, large events) has always been poor and I think it’s getting worse. Being at home gives me that quiet – my husband knows not to play the TV or music loud when I’m in “focus mode”.

      That said, I also like being around other coworkers and collaborating as long as there aren’t too many people. Online meeting platforms do help with feeling connected, especially when cameras are on, but I do enjoy seeing people in person.

      Definitely no easy answers for me

    12. Poplar Tree*

      For me one of the biggest problems would be the separation of home and work, especially because my living space is small. I have a hard enough time separating work from home so having my workspace where I live would be really difficult. I feel like even if I had a separate workspace in my home with a door that I could close I’d get stressed walking past it thinking about all the things I should be doing. Or alternatively I’d just keep working because I “just want to check one more thing” or “oh I want to make sure my inbox is clean before I log off”

    13. Rosie Posie*

      Can you go in once a month or so to work in the office? A somewhat hybrid position like that is the best of both worlds.

    14. H.Regalis*

      It can isolating.

      The other big downside I’ve noticed is that I have to make a conscious effort to walk more. I’m walking across my apartment instead of to work, or to the bus stop or parking garage from work. You wouldn’t think that’d make a huge difference, but it does. I’ve gained a lot of weight since switching to working remotely and my cardiovascular stamina has become much lower than I want it to be.

    15. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I snack more. If I’m in an office, snacking means vending machines, and I rarely am willing to spend the money, but at home, I just have to go into my own kitchen which is full of my own preferred foods that are already paid for, and it’s all downhill from there. And… for me, that’s all I got. I LOVE working remotely, because nobody can see when I’m grumbling behind my monitor and my eyebrows are shooting off my forehead into orbit, and my ability to mask as friendly (when I’m really an extra-introverted grouch) is much improved. Being “on” all day in a roomful of people is SUPER hard for me, but I can roll with it much better via Teams and email.

    16. Qwerty*

      If you are going remote, I recommend remote companies that have built a culture specifically around being remote. Teams made of remote + in office workers are very tough and usually everyone is unhappy.

      One of the biggest things I hate about being remote is people are jerks. It’s a “not all men” situation where not everyone is a jerk but enough people are that it means I’m constantly interacting with difficult people*. Text based communciation seems to escalate minor items. The isolationist nature of the job can make it hard to get people to engage and become very self-focused. Leadership has to make company culture a priority and be actively working on it because one difficult person can turn half the team really quickly. It also means if you have any concerns about behaviors or discrimination that there are no witnesses to your conversations.

      Two – It is lonely. You need to have a robust social life. People with families tend to do better because you are living with others.

      Three – you are trading drive by conversations for Slack insanity. Pick your poison? Personally it drives me batty to have Slack constantly going off. In the office I know that if something is urgent someone will stop by so I can ignore it, plus I get less messages in office. Other people prefer the Slack world, so this might not bother you.

    17. Irish Teacher.*

      I think one issue could be ending up working more hours. I know when I am correcting, I often think, “well, I’ve a half an hour free. Maybe I should do a couple of extra papers.” With correcting it doesn’t really matter since there is a finite number of papers so getting more done on a day means getting to the end a bit more quickly but if one was working remotely all the time, doing the odd extra half hour would add up pretty quickly.

    18. Busy Middle Manager*

      1) You need a home office/ and setup
      2) Cooling/heating costs, especially this summer. I’ve literally gone to the office just for the free HVAC
      3) Escaping a noisy environment – if you live in an urban area there are car alarms, delivery trucks, groups of people, outdoor music, and construction noises, good to have two places to work so you can escape when one is loud. They were redoing the sidewalk across from my house this week so it was a God send to have a place to escape jackhammering noises at home. They were renovating two buildings behind me over the past year so WFH = listening to sawing and drilling and trucks going beep beep beep backing up and moving forward and backing up…
      4) Training junior staff. 100X easier to guide newer people when you’re sitting next to them. Even if they can get it at home, I catch people mentally freezing and staring for chunks of time and in person I can just look to the left and help. If they’re WFH they take an hour deciding on whether to email/text you. Then you’re interrupted and need to help and it can be a five minute text exchange to answer a basic 10 second question
      5) Strategy type meetings. Not everything is conducive to email exchanges or talking to a Hollywood squares of boxes on teams. I can’t verbalize why but strategy type meetings and meetings where someone is stuck on a project always get ironed out quickly in person.
      6) Other people lack distractions. Absolutely no one wants to admit they’re distracted at home because they think WFH will be revoked. We’re going to keep hearing the same “study shows” that WFH is great. However, if you’re not in a process/repeat-task job, many people mentally go MIA while WFH and get stuck on really small things. If you need a project that is stalled to move, have an in-office day and suddenly a month’s of backlog of pending items are no longer pending. People “disagree” with this because they don’t want WFH to be revoked, as if it’s something you can disagree with and not simply something that happens
      7) lunch/coffee – many offices are near a series of lunch places. not everyone has a convenient lunch place near thier house. Cooking can take a while.
      8) Nosy neigbors. If I want to go outside during lunch, some neighbors don’t grasp it’s a work break and not fodder to talk at me for 20 min

    19. Maotseduck*

      I worked fully remote from March 2020 to October 2022 and it didn’t do great things to my mental health. I’m a reluctant extrovert-I don’t like a lot of people, but I feel better around people.

      Working from home made my previously defeated agoraphobia come back in force as well. It got harder and harder to get out of the house.

      1. allathian*

        Covid was an additional stressor at the time. Sure, it’s still around and people are still getting sick and dying from it, but lockdowns have gone away, most people are no longer masking (for better or worse) and Covid numbers are no longer making headlines.

        Basically the only thing that’s changed for me compared to 2019 is that now I WFH most of the time and go into the office maybe once or twice a month.
        Before March 2020 I worked remotely maybe once a month if that. I had the option but I didn’t have a good home office setup, and my then-manager didn’t like WFH.

      2. Plate of Wings*

        “Working from home made my previously defeated agoraphobia come back in force as well. It got harder and harder to get out of the house.”

        This sounds so, so tough! Good for you for knowing yourself so you can defeat it again.

    20. Anonymous for this one*

      I have had very different experiences with remote work depending on the situation.

      During the pandemic, I went remote at a smallish company where I already knew everyone, there was a strong culture of using Slack/similar tools to chat informally and most of my work was individual. I missed my colleagues, but otherwise, great, zero problems.

      Later on, I started remotely at a much larger and more formal company where my work required more collaboration and, although I didn’t hate it, it was very very challenging to get the lay of the land, build working relationships and sort of pick up on the office dynamics. I’m now hybrid and it’s been a significant help with that.

      All that said, I wouldn’t rule out remote work, particularly if the company is set up to facilitate it, but there are definitely some potential challenges even if you’re the type of person to find the idea appealing.

    21. Bitte Meddler*

      I think the main complaint that people who work remotely have is that it’s hard to build relationships. Not impossible, just harder than when you’re in the same physical space as other people and, like, standing around waiting for the coffee to finish brewing.

      I work fully remote and started a new job late last fall. We don’t have an office, so I’m not at the social disadvantage that comes from working with people who see each other regularly in person (which I’ve experienced in past jobs).

      I’ve found that just putting time on people’s calendars works to help build relationships.

      I’m an internal auditor, so I eventually end up talking to people from across the company as a part of my job but, even if that weren’t true, I would still schedule 1:1’s or meet-and-greets with people in different departments (and at different levels) just to learn about the all the business units and functions. I’ve found that people love talking about their jobs.

      And there are definitely folks who I’ve hit it off with better than others, and I ask them if it’s OK to schedule monthly or bi-weekly 1:1’s with them so that I can keep my “talk to other humans” muscle from atrophying, and to keep up with what they and their department are up to. I have yet to have anyone tell me No.

      I also live in a neighborhood where there is *always* somebody out walking, usually with a dog. So if I’m feeling isolated, I just have to go out in my front yard and pull weeds or fuss with the hedges and — bam — within a few minutes I’ve got somebody stopping for a quick, casual chat.

    22. I Have RBF*

      As a fully remote person, I will admit there are some cons, but they vary from company to company:
      * Always working syndrome. Some people expect that remote people will always be available because they don’t have to commute. You end up needing to be firm on boundaries.
      * Not knowing what your coworkers are doing. This varies by workplace, and how interconnected your team is.
      * Social isolation. Especially for people who live alone, this can be a problem, and affect your mental health and productivity.
      * Lack of visibility to higher ups. If your management is still old school, “out of sight, out of mind” can hurt your career.

      It sounds like for you a hybrid workplace would be ideal, maybe a two in, three out situation. You would get two days of face time and socialization connection in the office, while still having the benefit of reduced commute hours and increased focus time when at home.

      1. hmmmm*

        I sort of agree — my current job is pretty strict on 3 days in-office, though. I’m wondering if I could negotiate that down to 2 when I return from parental leave. As I said, I actually like seeing people in person, but it is a scramble to get to and from the office, plus do daycare pickup or dropoff (I switch off with my spouse) — unfortunately daycare and my office are in opposite directions from my house.

    23. Bast*

      I am also an introvert, and Covid soured full time WFH for me. I’d be all for hybrid, but the main cons were:

      I found to be isolating and depressing to be stuck within the same 4 walls day in and day out with little to no adult contact. Granted, this was in 2020 when everything was shut down, so there was no burn off steam at the gym time, book clubs, or even just go to the store to escape time. It was switch off the screen and not leave the house for months on end except OCCASIONALLY a quick walk outside, which I found hard to cope with in the long term. Even as an introvert, I’d recommend having some break from just sitting in the house all day, something to look forward to after work.

      No commute time to decompress after work — even 15 minutes makes a difference. This was a blessing and a curse, because I could just power off my laptop and be done for the day, but it also blurred the lines significantly and did not give me time to transition between the two.

      If you don’t have a good set up, this is also a con. I was not expecting to be working from home exclusively for months, and was stuck with an uncomfortable kitchen table chair.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I agree on the decompress thing, but even more extreme–I think I’d be fired if I did WFH, because A) my specific job is taking phone calls/orders and B) I really, really need that clear dividing line between work and home.

        I really could not take my home space being “invaded” by constant calls/orders. It would blur the lines for me in very, very unhealthy ways. I absolutely want to do a good job at work, but I cannot have that energy in my living space.

    24. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I don’t like it personally. I took the job I have now because my previous job was WFH and I went days without talking to another adult. (My husband worked ridiculous hours)

      That said, some jobs have a lot more interaction via zoom, slack, teams than others.

    25. Policy Wonk*

      I don’t like to telework, though I know many people who do. Like you, I don’t like commuting, so I telework a day or two a week. More than that and I feel isolated. I also note that when my kids were the age yours are I felt very isolated because I didn’t have much time with them after I picked them up from day care, so they were my first priority and I didn’t have much of a social life. I would recommend you seek a hybrid situation, not something fully remote. Good luck with the work/life balancing act!

    26. RagingADHD*

      From personal experience, the downsides for me of fully remote included:

      – Lack of boundaries between home time and work time, both physically and mentally. For me, this led to never being able to mentally switch off because the nature of my work was never totally done – always more that could be done. Very exhausting.

      – Lack of low-level, spontaneous human contact. Everything had to be planned and scheduled, for a purpose – which can feel very high stakes and daunting when you get used to the entropy of being home alone. Thus begetting a vicious cycle where every meeting or event (even fun ones) is A Big Deal, making it hard to get up the energy. I may not say much more than “good morning” to my coworkers on an average day, but those little passing moments make it easier for them to ask me for stuff (and vice versa).

      – My home is where all the things and people I like best are. It’s that much harder to concentrate on dry but necessary tasks when a hundred things you’d rather be doing are *right there.*

      – Integrating into the company culture and becoming known/recognized by peers and leaders. For example, one of the reasons my great-grandboss clearly favors me over my peer who’s been here longer, is that she sees my face regularly, while my peer is 99 percent remote. This hasn’t had a concrete impact yet, but I know that if it ever comes down to a disagreement between us on things that need executive buy-in (which is looking like a possibility), I’m the one who’s getting the buy in. Mere visibility and rapport aren’t the only reasons, but they do tie in with other factors, like the fact that she’s seen me interact with even more senior leaders and do a good job handling things that came up last minute.

      YMMV of course. That’s just how it has gone for me.

      My ideal setup is to be primarily in the office, with WFH as an option from time to time if needed. And I have used that option a good bit – nearly once a week this summer, less when school was in. But every time, I wind up glad I’m not fully remote anymore.

    27. WorkFromWherever*

      I’ve been working hybrid since the mid90s and fully remote for about a decade.

      The company culture makes a difference. If you are the only one working at home it can be tough. It WAH is part of the company culture it should be fine from a work perspective.

      Honestly, I’ve worked at companies where everyone went into the office much of the but still communicated almost entirely by Slack or similar environments. There is no functional difference.

      I’ve worked at companies where the team is split across 2,3,4 locations – WAH fits in perfectly well.

      The biggest thing is that you can no longer run errands on the way home from work. You need to actually remember to go to get your mail instead of stopping at the mailbox/mailroom on the way in. You can’t add a quick stop at the drugstore on the way home. And so on.

      Most places I’ve worked have social channels of various sorts on their messaging software – some call it a virtual water cooler. Staff/group meetings often have a bit of chit chat before they formally start, and other meetings may as well. I’ve made good friends with folks I’ve only met online including through remote work.

      So it is a bit of a change and it does require a bit more logistical planning for life tasks, but in a situation where everyone is remote I’d expect the work to go smoothly.

      If you really hate always being at home, you could consider going to a library or cafe a couple of days a week (just buy stuff every couple of hours if you go to a cafe). You could also see if they’ll spring for a seat at a coworking space if one exists near you – most of them have relatively inexpensive “take an open seat in shared” spaces option and there are socialization opportunities in kitchens, at copiers, etc.

      Good luck!

    28. Quinalla*

      I am WFH full time from COVID lockdowns until now and hopefully far into the future. I also did full time WFH for almost a year after I broke my hip about 10 years ago.

      There are downsides, for me the pluses outweigh them by A LOT, but here are the downsides:
      1. Need to make more of an effort to build relationships. You don’t have the chance meetings, side conversations, etc. of the office (these are good and bad of course) that let you build relationships with little to no effort. You have to create these things and it can be a bit awkward. If your whole team is fully remote or hybrid, usually company culture will have some things established to help with this, but be aware.
      2. Similar to 1, you have to work harder to be visible to higher ups. Again, no chance meetings in the corridors and it can be even more awkward to keep in touch with higher ups than peers/team/manager.
      3. It can be isolating. For folks that enjoy getting a lot of socialization from work for whatever reason, it is difficult to get as much and it may not be satisfying. I actually prefer socializing over Teams chat and video calls and occasional phone calls for my work time as it is much less draining to me, but some folks find this more draining or unsatisfying.
      4. It can be hard to stay motivated for some folks. No judgement here, it just can be hard for some with all the distractions of home.
      5. It can be hard to turn off work mode. I don’t have this problem, but my husband and others I know do. They have to create rituals, etc. to make it work for them.

    29. Plate of Wings*

      I was possibly more productive as a fully remote employee because of my great setup at home and largely independent technical role. But I was so isolated. Moving to a hybrid company has been great, and my in office days became productive after a while.

      I would not go back to full remote unless there were no hybrid options.

      All that said, my hybrid job is still extremely flexible so the flexibility of remote isn’t really a draw for me.

      I had ambitious teams at my remote jobs and hybrid jobs, but for me personally hybrid is a better fit. I also live with good public transit, no commuting in traffic.

      Good luck either way. Being thoughtful about this is smart and I wish I had been deliberate like you sooner.

  19. AnonymousOctopus*

    Giving notice today to my first office job and I’m nervous. I’ve been here for five years now and am super burnt out and very excited for this new opportunity (20% salary increase with less hours to boot!), but now that it’s time to let my manager know I’m a little scared! My boss is great and it won’t be a surprise, but I’m used to quitting jobs like retail and food service.

    I’ve read all the posts (thanks Alison!) so I know I’ll be okay, just have to rip the bandaid off. Good vibes would be appreciated!

    5. Paint N Drip*

      Good vibes!!! I think you’ll be surprised how supportive professional managers* can be when you give notice :)

      *I mean managers in “real jobs” however you define that to yourself – it is way easier to give notice to your summer ice cream shop job when everyone knows you’re heading back to school, but different feels when you’re navigating your “real” career. No offense intended at all to anyone, all jobs are real jobs (retail and food service are TOUGH jobs, I think most of us can agree our ‘professional’ jobs are easier)

  20. Sick of Workplace Bullshit (she/her)*

    Happy Simcoe Day / August long weekend fellow Ontarians! Stay safe and have fun!

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      Enjoy.

      It’s a long weekend in Ireland too actually. Lunasa, but mostly just the August Bank Holiday.

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        OK, I have to ask: what does the average Irish person think about Lunasa? For example, in the States, we have Memorial Day which is nominally to pay respect to those who died in our wars. In practice, the average person sees it as a long weekend and the kickoff of summer. I remember pagan friends celebrating Lunasa as the first harvest festival and so on, but I’m curious about the day to day lived experience.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          Honestly, it’s just a day off. I’m not even sure if the Bank holiday is specifically intended for Lunasa or not – all four of the Celtic festivals now have a Bank holiday in or around them and the newest one is definitely intended, but there are also just some random Bank holidays, so I dunno.

          It’s officially the beginning of Autumn but at most, it marks the change of season.

  21. Hyaline*

    So–I took on a project (essentially, creating a training manual/guide of pre-existing resources) with three coworkers (someone else is lead). We’re supposed to have a phase of it complete by early next week, and neither of the others has done anything with it. Broadly, we have a bunch of resources we need to vet for permissions and access, note the online or physical locations, and then give a yay or nay on whether we’d prefer to include each resource in a department resource compendium. The first two tasks take longer than the last, which is basically skimming and quickly noting the preference. To date, I’ve completed almost all of my assigned documents/resources doing ALL of these tasks–we were supposed to split the vetting process equally with two people looking at each. (I’m really invested in getting this project done as it will be a place to send new folks instead of personally looking things up every time.)

    Would you:

    a) Check in with the team lead (who, note, has not appeared to do anything on this project so it would look a little like chiding her)?
    b) Just stop doing the time-consuming work and wrap up the skim-and-note portion?
    c) Keep doing all the work like it’s 7th grade Social Studies group project time all over again?
    d) Something else?

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Start with A. But be prepared to talk to your manager if the team lead refuses to lead.

    2. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      Check in with the team lead who may have information you don’t. I’d phrase it as “I’m going to have my portion ready for you on (date) but am holding for the vetting portion. I’ve fallen out of the loop there; do you have info on that?”

      Do *NOT* stop doing the time consuming work that is in your power to do. It’s tempting, but if things go badly, you want to be able to say innocently that you did all of your part.

      1. Hyaline*

        In this case–I’m really not concerned about blowback or needing to cover myself. I’ve already done far more of the work than was assigned to me. The only reason to keep doing it would be to keep the project on track, and I’m personally invested in doing so (but I was also pretty personally invested in that 7th grade Social Studies project, so this may be an overachiever flaw).

      2. Charley*

        Absolutely check with team lead. If you eventually need to bring this to your manager, I bet their first question will be, “Well, what did So-and-so say?”

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      I’d finish my assigned items. Then when the end of the time for phase 1 nears, I’d reach out to the team lead (or the whole team) with something like: “Hi all, I’ve finished my assigned tasks for phase 1. When we’ve all completed our portions, let’s check in and make sure we’re all set for phase 2.” That’s both a nudge for them to complete the work and a chance to adjust expectations going forward. Maybe you want to take on more of one of the upcoming phases, and less/none of a different upcoming phase? Seems like you have standing to ask for what you want!

      Basically, I’d do my work and do it well, and try not to take on stress or responsibility for other people’s portions. It reflects poorly on them that they’re not doing the work assigned to them; think about how it may reflect poorly on YOU if YOU do the work assigned to them. I get that you’re invested in the project, but it seems like things have been ~okay~ with the current system. Meanwhile, each time one of you on the team looks something up personally, that person should take that opportunity to do whatever piece of building the compendium you can – if new staff needs X resource, you look it up for then and in that moment take the time to note its location.

  22. Potatohead*

    So I’m not sure if this is a question or more of a gut check, but I need some impartial eyes on a very weird situation.

    I was terminated from my job a few weeks ago. When I left, I got in contact with a co-worker who said they would give me a positive reference – but they did so by forwarding the reply to my ex-grandboss, who forwarded it to me. That was a little odd, so I had someone do a test-check as a prospective employer, and the coworker gave an extremely negative reference instead that was worded as if they had been my supervisor. I asked them if they had heard from anyone, and they claimed to both have not contacted Grandboss at all and to have not gotten any phone calls, both of which I knew were false.

    I don’t want to believe I misread this person’s character for over a year, but thinking the grand boss put some sort of embargo on references feels very paranoid. Has anyone ever run into something like this?

    1. WellRed*

      Even if the grand boss said no references, the coworker didn’t then need to give a bad one. WTAF? Kind of assholes did you work with?

    2. Hyaline*

      Wait–the person not only said they’d give a reference, but basically said they’d vouch for you with a positive one, then turned around and gave a bad one? And in doing so lied about your respective roles, claiming they were your supervisor?

      Look, you felt you needed to test this system which…I think says your gut already knows the answers here.

    3. EngGirl*

      Honestly if you haven’t actually used them as a reference (based on your post it sounds like you did a test and heard what they said about you) then I’d consider this a dodged bullet and move on from considering them as a reference or friend in the future.

      If you used them as a reference already that ships probably sunk, however you could always have a tortious interference case on your hands if you can prove that they have factually false information about you. (This note is based solely on watching “The Newsroom” like 15 times and should be fact checked with an actual attorney)

    4. Paint N Drip*

      Thaaaat’s a bees alert!
      You have a lot of valuable information, and you’ll be able to navigate your job search a LOT easier now. Just think of all the jobs you’ll actually have a fair shot at now.
      Why that happened… ????? Genuinely antisocial behavior – even if you were a BAD employee/coworker where the feedback makes sense, coworker offering to be that reference and sandbagging you is nasty work. Sorry you’re dealing with this :(

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      What a horrible thing for them to do, giving a negative reference after promising a positive one.
      If the GB ordered them to do this, then at the very least, the ex-coworker should have warned you so you wouldn’t use them.
      Obviously don’t use them in future. Was the job short enough to leave off your resume?

    6. Bitte Meddler*

      I had something similar happen. I was job searching while still employed and asked one of my co-workers if they’d be a reference for me (since, you know, I couldn’t ask my manager because I didn’t want him to know I was looking). He said yes, and even volunteered some of the good things he would say about me.

      Imagine my surprise, then, when one of the hiring managers I had interviewed with called me and said, “Just wanted to let you know that your Reference Colleague told me that he would not be a reference for you.”

      I pulled co-worker aside as soon as I could and asked what the hell was going on. He said, “Oh, I talked to [our manager] about your job search and me being a reference and he told me that I am not allowed to be a reference for you.”

      What. The. Fuck.

      Thank all the gods and goddesses that the hiring manager who told me that had also made me an offer in the same phone call. I was able to give my two weeks’ notice that same day.

      But, Potatohead, your situation seems to involve a jerk of a colleague, not a monumentally clueless one.

      1. Her name was Lola*

        I had something similar happen. I asked a coworker who was above me on the job pyramid if she would be a reference for me. Unfortunately, the job didn’t work out. But the coworker not only told my boss, but the entire leadership team. Has made for quite a few awkward meetings.

    7. Somehow I Manage*

      Ummm… I smell something rotten here. I think if your gut is telling you to find a different reference, do so. Maybe there are “reasons” for an embargo on a reference, like because you were terminated it can only be HR and they can only confirm dates of employment. But to have someone give a negative reference and misrepresent the working relationship… that’s not good. I’d steer clear of any references from this workplace.

      1. Potatohead*

        I was there for about 1.75 years, so unfortunately it’s gotta be on my resume. And yeah, I’ve fully written off any intent of getting a reference from that office, falling back entirely on my prior job that I left on good terms – I can’t accuse them of saying anything outright false because it is technically all true.

        But I guess its good to know I’m not jumping to conclusions or overreacting, because I’ve been prone to both in the past. I had talked to this person specifically because they were the friendliest one there…but apparently that was just hiding the bees.

        They also fought and successfully denied me unemployment as well, because without a copy of my last review I couldn’t prove my case that they hadn’t given adequate opportunity to improve. So bees all around it seems.

        1. Potatohead*

          As far as HR, I was pressured at the termination meeting to sign a paper absolving them of legal liability for anything they told future employers about me (claiming they couldn’t even confirm I worked there otherwise). Buzz buzz buzz.

        2. Cj*

          since what they said was all true, the coworker don’t have told you that they would be a positive reference for you.

          i’m confused as to why you asked them to be a reference in the first place, because it sounds like you were basically expecting them to lie by giving you a positive reference. that could come back to bite them in the ass by negatively affecting their reputation if you got the job based on their reference, and your performance at the new job did not match the expectations they had based on the former coworkers reference.

          1. Potatohead*

            “Technically” true, in a way that grossly misrepresented the situation – for instance, they/management said I had been warned about my errors. I had – almost a year before, where my last review six months prior indicated I was improving and performing adequately. Which was one of the reasons I was so caught off guard by the whole thing – this coworker had never expressed the slightest unhappiness with anything I worked on for them, and in fact had frequently shown the opposite. So I had very good reason to think their perspective might be different than my boss/grandboss.

            1. Cj*

              I’m really curious two know more about what was true, and what wasn’t, and what exactly the issues were in the past and still were when you were fired.

              but that’s just my curiosity, isn’t any of our business, and isn’t important to any advice you are given. The Important part is don’t use This Former Co-Worker as a reference, and don’t consider them a friend.

            2. GythaOgden*

              Unfortunately in their eyes you were still sacked. The colleague may have had to choose between giving you a reference and keeping their job, and while you think you were blameless in the situation, there was something /in their perspective/ that moved them to let you go.

              The colleague should have been honest in the first place (that’s the part that really sucks on their part) but since the company even contested unemployment and won I don’t think it’s going to help you to re-litigate or try to argue about it with a future employer that doesn’t know the full context and will put anything you say down to sour grapes.

              Better to start clean over and move on. Not because it’s just or fair or the colleague isn’t a lying swine, but because it would be a better way to start a new job with a clean record and not demonstrate a volatility you may bring to their office with you.

              1. Cj*

                this kind of fits in with the unemployment claim that you mentioned, so I thought that I would post this as a reply to your comment.

                the OP said that part of the problem was that they didn’t have a copy of their review that shows they were not given a chance to improve. in a later post they said that that review said that they were improving, and their work was adequate. that’s certainly isn’t something that is going to impress a potential employer.

                I know that the application for unemployment, in my state at least, asks if you had been previously warned about whatever it was you got fired for, and I think it might ask something about if you were given coaching, additional training, Etc.

                so while not being given a chance to improve may matter for receiving unemployment, a potential employer isn’t going to care.

    8. Negative Reference*

      I think you’ve posted about your work history over the past few years under a few different names. If you’re the person who I think I recognize, then I believe I recall that you were making errors in this job, and the job was in an industry where errors are absolutely not acceptable.

      You have appeared to disagree that you were given enough notice or “procedural due process” before you were let go. But not all offices are perfect, and most of the time if one is not doing the job the workplace needs, one doesn’t necessarily get a perfect process and opportunity to improve before one is let go.

      If you are that previous poster, then it seems to me that your coworker might have gotten an instruction from their boss or grandboss as to what the content of the reference would have to be. And-or, maybe when they were speaking with you, they wanted to be friendly in a conversation that may have been very awkward for them. And considering that you were fired because they weren’t happy with your performance, why would you expect anything but a negative reference?

  23. Angry bird*

    Why do the short term disability/leave people need to know if I’m having a boy or a girl? What does that have to do with them?

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      They might just be trying to make nice conversation. Unfortunately, a lot of people find it intrusive and the people asking the question haven’t adapted.

      1. Angry bird*

        It wasn’t pleasant conversation it was one of the checkboxes, I clarified with them, but they still couldn’t tell me why they needed that info

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          What if your having one of each? Or two of one?

          Doesn’t matter, because there’s no reason to know!

          2. HBJ*

            Or you chose not to find out! There are still people in this day and age who choose to be surprised at the birth.

            1. allathian*

              Yes, this. I absolutely didn’t want to know, and I was very happy that my son kept didn’t turn during the ultrasound scans. I went to our NHS and they’ll confirm it if it’s obvious but won’t attempt to turn the baby for a better view. If you want to knw, you can go private and pay for it yourself. We have single-payer health insurance although most employers also pay for occupational health insurance to ensure that their employees get quick access to healthcare when they are unfit for work. But the vast majority of employers explicitly exclude reproductive health issues like ultrasound scans.

        2. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Ugh, that sucks. If you feel like doing anything about it, you could email the company and tell them that this is included on the form, it isn’t necessary, is intrusive, and please remove it. Might not get anywhere of course, but also won’t hurt to try.

        3. The Unionizer Bunny*

          I’d guess they’re trying to establish data-points they can quiz you on later to see if your answers remain consistent over time? Any discrepancy is a potential excuse to make a “fraud” determination.

          It’s a liability that they couldn’t tell you, though. They should have at least prepared an innocuous excuse. If any inappropriate reason can be identified, silence will sound more like “knowing, but not wanting to answer”.

          If this was a digital form with mandatory gender selection (and only two options), or if you leave that area blank but they reject you citing that missing information (they have to tell you why they denied your application), your employer is just as liable despite outsourcing the process to an external company. You might be able to get a better response from your employer (who will have a word with their leave-handling company) just by pointing this out and saying that, even if they want to have their own attorney evaluate whether to continue with this leave-handling company, delaying your leave while they do that is . . . hang on.

          Is the leave company also handling short-term disability? I thought the latter was for income replacement, not leave.

          1. Angry bird*

            I believe it’s one company that handles both short term disability and FMLA. Not sure about the paid leave through our employer, though that is only 2 weeks after you’ve exhausted every other resource so it’s a much smaller piece of the puzzle

    4. Jay (no, the other one)*

      They don’t need to know that. You might not even know! When I went out for a knee replacement, nobody asked me which knee it was. This is even more ridiculous than that would have been.

    5. Rick Tq*

      That sounds like a social question they asked in passing, not a work-related one.

      “I don’t know” is a valid answer to others even if you actually do.

      1. Angry bird*

        It wasn’t social, I clarified that it was something the leave company was asking, not the person I was on the phone with

        1. Jay (no, the other one)*

          Grrr. When my then-employer changed benefit management companies, we had to go into the new portal and sign up for everything. Our benefits included life insurance. I duly named my husband as beneficiary and my daughter as residual/alternate beneficiary – and then realized I had to choose between “child” and “adopted child” on the form. This was not about her health info, where that might have been relevant – it was life insurance *for me.* She was adopted. She is my daughter and there is absolutely no distinction between her legal rights and the rights of a child born of my body.

          I asked my HR rep who asked the company who reported that “a client once asked for that option.” Grrr.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            That’s a sneaky way to deny benefits if it turns out your child has inherited health issues, it sounds like (and as an adoptee that really steams my beans!)

    6. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

      because there are a lot of forms that are badly designed. for example my doctor’s office really doesn’t need to know my social security number but they ask for it on every form.

      1. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

        From someone who worked in a few medical labs: One major reason medical facilities ask for your SSN is to ensure they have the right information matched up across the board.
        Sometimes name and DOB doesn’t cut it. (e.g. my lab got specimens from five separate people with the same first and last. Three of those had the same middle initial and two of those had the same DOB. They were not the same people. Very common in that particular area.)

        From the lab side, if the SSN wasn’t provided, we required a whole lot more information to ensure unique validation (like addresses on top of the usual full name and DOB).

    7. RagingADHD*

      They don’t, but if they’re officially capturing it, someone probably thought at one time that it would be nice to send all the new parents a little pink or blue tchotchke.

      Benefits people tend to be HR people, and HR people tend to be peopley-people who like that kind of thing.

      They may not even actually be doing it (or not anymore) and nobody updated the form to take it off.

      1. loggerhead*

        Yeah, this was my first assumption. I’ve worked for a lot of places where employees get baby gifts. I could see this item on the form as something someone thought was fun a long time ago and they haven’t spent time thinking about it since then because they have other priorities.

        You may have coworkers who enjoy feeling like there’s a real interest in this huge thing that’s happening to them. Maybe that’s another reason the item is on the form. Who knows.

      1. Angry bird*

        If it was just conversation I would have told them, I’m a chatty person. It was for the official record.

    9. BigLawEx*

      I’m so confused. What if you don’t know? I didn’t find out until my kid was born, and even then it was a few minutes (okay half an hour – I took a shower) before I thought to ask.

  24. Van Wilder*

    Update – to those that gave their advice about a month ago.

    I was asking you to tell me it’s ok to quit right before busy season. You all made me feel better about it.

    And… as a couple of you predicted, the hiring process moved at its usual slow pace, and I am now to the point where I am looking to move after busy season. (I will not quit during – see below.)

    In fairness, one of the firms I was talking to accelerated their process for me, and I probably could have made the switch before. But I actually had to ask them to slow down so I could wait for other offers and compare.

    For context, the recruiter told me today that he relayed to the partner at their firm what I had said about either wanting everything wrapped up by 7/31 or waiting until after the deadline. He said the partner was relieved to hear that. (It would have been a ding against my professionalism if I had been willing to quit my firm in the middle of busy season.)

  25. Passionfruit*

    What conference swag do people like the best? I’m helping organize a small academic symposium in the computer science field— anyone have recommendations of swag to order?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Practical things, and if you can, get things from different categories. Get clever too, sometimes oddball little things are really helpful.

    2. MsM*

      For computer geeks? Laptop stickers. Privacy shields and/or webcam covers. Cleaning wipes.

      Or just pens. Pens are always popular.

      1. Passionfruit*

        We have webcam covers leftover from last year, and I definitely plan to use them! I also ordered some holographic laptop stickers. So you and I are on the same page :)

    3. Apex Mountain*

      I always liked small things like pens, cups,magnets tshirts, etc that I could bring back for my kids – something that doesn’t take up alot of room if you’re traveling.

    4. River*

      I was always a fan of cloth tote bags (because they are durable and last long), branded quality pens, and little notebooks with the brand on them. These are the items I found myself liking a lot, more so because I would definitely use them. One vendor one year that I went to a conference was giving away branded phone chargers. Who doesn’t need a phone charger nowadays? Sounds like fun, good luck!

        1. GythaOgden*

          Definitely! Also notebooks, pens etc. There are a lot of really good makes of corporate pens out there — I write team minutes in longhand (because handwriting is fun) and the best pen has a bit of heft to it, an actual spring in the clicky bit, and chunky ink that doesn’t scratch the paper or need to be kick-started every time I use it.

      2. 901*

        Another vote for reusable bags. I used to work at big trade shows and those things went like wildfire. I still use some from a client and the show was almost 10 years ago.

      3. Joielle*

        I like the little notebooks with a pen attached! I have a few from conferences and I use them all the time.

    5. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m a big fan of either consumables or low-volume memorabilia. Not clothing, not water bottles. Nothing that weighs too much or takes up too much space in my luggage.

      Consumables: small notepads, a bottle of screen-cleaner with the conference logo, etc.

      Memorabilia: Laptop stickers or patches – especially if you can weave something local into the design, assuming it’s a conference that moves from year to year. I remember as a kid that when my dad went to the big annual convention for his niche professional society, they always had great stickers that referenced something about the host city. This was a military-adjacent organization, so they were round or shield-shaped like a mission or unit patch. The year they went to San Antonio, they had the organization mascot perched on the Alamo (It’s the Association of Old Crows if anyone is curious).

      2. Awkwardness*

        NOT small notepads. Medium sized sturdy ones (the size that always gets ignored). But pens. Pens are always good.

    6. RMNPgirl*

      NOT tote bags. I have so many tote bags from conferences. An exception to this may be if a lot of people attending are coming from areas with plastic bag bans because then the tote bags can be used as grocery bags.
      Pens are always good. I like getting little notepads, ones small enough to fit in a purse that I can then easily pull out and write a note on if I need to.

      1. Anon for This*

        Tote bags are OK if you get quality ones, and big enough to actually hold groceries. The polyester drawstring bags I’ve received lately are pretty useless, the cheap fabric doesn’t last and many of them are too small to hold much.

        1. I Have RBF*

          The non-woven tote bags I get get either donated or go into the trash. They fall apart at the worst time, and can’t be repaired. Cheap canvas I can re-sew, but not the non-woven stuff. Cotton/hemp/bamboo canvas is also biodegradable, the polyester is not, and thus puts microplastics into the environment.

          Another fun thing is string bags for produce, which can also hold literature but fold up real small.

          I used to love getting the blocks of post-its, and I’m looking at the one on my desk that I got from a job in 1999. It’s half used, but that’s because I had it buried in a box before I pulled it out for use. It’s 3.5″ x 3.5″, instead of 3″x3″, which gives just that skosh more writing space, even with the logo.

          Small spiral notebooks are good, I always need more of those. They are good for taking session notes.

          Pens – please not cheap stick pens or gimicky ones. Combo pen and stylus works well.

          Phone chargers – useful, although the smaller ones break easily.

          Charging squids – useful as travel gear around people with multiple phone types.

          USB drives – not advised, as many companies prohibit any “foreign” media being inserted into their property – eg no SD cards or USB drives.

          Mugs – hit or miss. If every company has mugs, you may end up with lots of leftovers.

          Sewing kits – mini travel sewing kits work if the conference attendees are in travel heavy occupations.

          Stickers – IME, computer geeks love them.

          Academia is a special environment, so you might want to consider stuff that is useful but not something that they have regularly in their environment. My last university job had plenty of branded drinkware, cheap poly totes, first aid kits and “eco-friendly” lunch containers, but no big blocks of post-its or phone chargers.

      2. Cj*

        why does it matter if the people are coming from places where plastic bags are banned?

        they aren’t banned where I live, but you can still certainly use reusable ones, and they take five cents off your grocery bill for each reusable bag.

    7. Jay (no, the other one)*

      I’m not in tech and there may be specific things that I’m not aware of. My favorites have been really good water bottles or travel mugs – not cheap plastic ones. Good canvas tote bags. Good pens (not stick pens). I like clip magnets for the fridge or filing cabinet, too.

    8. Van Wilder*

      A decent notebook. (Like the small, 5×9-ish size.) Doesn’t have to be sewn in pages like Moleskine style (although that would be nice.) A quality spiral book is great too.

      1. Spacewoman Spiff*

        Second! I like notebooks as something I can actually use during the conference, and small enough to not be a pain when traveling.

    9. FashionablyEvil*

      People always liked it when we gave out little travel band-aid kits. And chocolate never went amiss.

    10. Angry bird*

      I ran out of mini hand sanitizer and cheap sunglasses during the pandemic because I’d unknowingly always gotten mine as conference swag

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I was going to suggest mini hand sanitizer bottles. OldJob had ordered a bunch of them before I’d started there and they would try to give them away at conferences to no avail, so they had two big boxes of them sitting in my boss’ office. I took four of them. Then the pandemic hit and I wished I’d taken half a box of them.

        I still wonder what became of all those bottles, because I didn’t work there anymore when they decided to go fully remote and cleaned out the office. And recently I completely randomly ran into my old boss from there and when she and her husband were passing around some hand sanitizer, I got mine out from my purse and was like, Hey, Nicole, remember these? (I keep refilling it from a big bottle.) We had a good laugh.

      1. Umbrellas*

        Yes I love an umbrella as swag – because then you can keep one at work, one in your car, a few at home. And if they’re nicer quality, they won’t bend after the first windy rainstorm.
        I have several umbrellas I received as swag from fundraising events — both the smaller size and a few that are full length. I guess for a conference where people are traveling, the smaller size that can easily fit in a suitcase or carry on is more practical.

    13. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      Sticky notes! Nobody has mentioned them yet and I use those more than anything swag-wise.

      Those fabric wipes for glasses (and/or tablets & phones)

      Little stuffed animals – beanie baby size – with a logo branded scarf around their neck were the surprise hit of the branded merch of a major tech conference a friend went to, but those are probably too expensive to give away. (You could sell ’em, though.)

      Seconding votes for stylus pens and small notebooks.

      Cloth totes… I mean, I like them, but they can be expensive/bulky. PLEASE no fake leather/fake canvas ones! They don’t hold up to wear & tear or cleaning like real cloth does.

      1. Awkwardness*

        The quality of sticky notes does unfortunately vary a lot. A solid yes for this suggestion if it is a quality product, a No of it will fall off after 5 min.

    14. Elle*

      People went bonkers over the packs of tissues we ordered. Sticky pads or magnet clips also went over well.

    15. Too Long Til Retirement*

      – A high quality pen, the best you can afford.
      -An out-of-left-field but useful swag item, such as a measuring spoon or pot scraper.
      – Gum and chapstick are also useful swag items.

    16. Alex*

      Branded M&Ms! I’ve received these in little branded tins with the M&Ms being the company colors. Love those.

    17. Workerbee*

      -Stickers. People love to put them on their laptops/tablets
      -Webcam covers
      -USB fans for desks / handheld rechargeable fans you can carry – at a conference, for example!
      -Small branded plushies – probably easiest if you have a square logo to begin with to make a mascot out of. All it needs are arms and possibly feet, and a smile :)
      -Backpacks, jackets/fleece zip-ups, Yeti cups… depends on budget, if you can get sizing beforehand, etc. Microsoft Ignite would give away a backpack that had an insulated pocket to carry snacks, a matching water bottle that fit in the backpack, and a pair of (wired) earbuds – and they’d give you a choice of three color-coordinated options. But they have a lot of money, so.

    21. Twisty Tunes*

      Notebooks. Stickers (if they’re cute). Candy/mints. Hand sanitizer/wet wipes/lip balm (i.e. stuff that gets used up). Sticky note pads.

      Not: key chains, magnets, water bottles, tote bags, t-shirts

      1. Somehow I Manage*

        In support of your list of NO, if it is something people might think about hanging onto, like a key chain or magnet or tee shirt, branded stuff like that is the first thing to go from my swag bag. If it is branded stuff that gets used or consumed… bring it on. But many people aren’t that interested in promoting a brand.

    22. Donkey Hotey*

      Most recent swag the wife brought home was a squishy foam cell phone prop. You rest your phone in it to watch videos hands free.

    23. Caramel & Cheddar*

      The best swag I ever got was a fidget toy. Other than that, I mostly don’t want anything because it’s more stuff to carry around, but if people insist then pens are fine, as are notepads, etc. Things that are small/flat, easy to pack, and eventually run out.

      I’ve seen a couple of conferences do a “In lieu of swag, we’re donating the swag budget to Charity X” but I can see that not working for many types of conferences.

    24. Shiver me timbers*

      Contigo water bottles :)
      I would go down 4imprint’s site or whatever, and window shop. If you would want it, chances are someone else will too.

    25. Somehow I Manage*

      Whatever you decide on, don’t get the cheapest of anything. There’s nothing worse than something that breaks after a single use.

      Also kind of depends on how far people are traveling. If they’re flying, smaller and / or easily packable is very helpful.

      I’ll second the tote bags (if they’re good quality), pens, and laptop stickers. But only stickers if they’re unique. I don’t need a corporate branded sticker on my laptop, water bottle or notebook. Notebooks are great. You can never have enough. If there’s a way to make it funny or a bit corny, that’s going to stay in rotation longer for me too.

      One thing I’ve seen a bit more recently is pet-centric items. I was at a tradeshow recently and one exhibitor had small bags of mini dog treats produced by a vendor in their community. While it was a tradeshow and people without dogs could opt out of taking it, I can tell you it was a big hit for me and for my dog when I got home. Again, that does alienate someone who doesn’t have a pet, or who only has a fish or snake, but it could be something…

      Last thing, I swear – something that is locally produced or specific to your location. For instance if you’re in Minneapolis, you have something Prince-centric. Once, I attended a tradeshow and gave away turtle candy (pecans, caramel, chocolate) that were made by a local company. Big hit!

    26. ProfessionalMess*

      Hand sanitizer and/or chapstick is my personal favorite. I also love a fidget toy.

      I co-presented a few times with a group focused on seniors that has card-sized magnifiers-a huge hit but maybe specific to seniors?

    27. Her name was Lola*

      Many years ago I got a little screwdriver that has a regular screw head on one end and a Phillips screw head on the other 30 years and 3 moves later, it’s still in my kitchen drawer and I use it on a regular basis.

    28. captain safetypants*

      I like ones that are really specific to my field, which is industrial hygiene (workplace health and safety). A couple of really in-demand ones I’ve seen are a flash drive in the shape of a tiny sound level meter (a very common IH tool), and not-lego-brand building brick industrial hygiene playsets (small ones). Personally I have more travel mugs and water bottles than I will EVER be able to use, so while those are nice in theory they’re also very common. Once I saw one that was a little multitool like a (generic) miniature Leatherman. Another time I was at an expo where a company was showing off their laser etching equipment, and they would etch your name on a jeweler’s loup while you watched, pointing out the cool features of their equipment.

    29. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I’ve been enjoying cute fidget things. I realize now that I think so much better when I have something to fiddle with. I have a couple cute gadgets from trade shows. Pens are ok if they are unique and write well. Nothing large or heavy, those get abandoned in hotel rooms because nobody is checking a bag to haul another water-bottle home.

    30. Double A*

      My organization once gave us branded cord-carriers, the kind you can store a bunch of cables and dongles in, and I like that a lot.

      USB Bugs are good too. I’d be stoked on one with 2 or more USB slots.

    31. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      My favorite swag at the moment is a push and pop fidget ball. I play with it while I’m on the phone with customers and wore the logo off within 2 months. It works much better for me than a regular squishy stress toy.

    32. BigLawEx*

      High speed USB plug (with two inputs, USB-C and standard USB). The two I’ve received, I use ALL the time – one in the kitchen, and one in my travel electronics bag.

    33. also cute and fluffy!*

      My favorite swag I’ve gotten at conferences:

      A branded tape measure
      A twenty ounce quality travel mug
      A kit of a wood fork, knife and spoon in a little bag

  26. Diane C.*

    I’m an individual contributor and I’m also a fairly introverted person. My new-ish manager is exceedingly extroverted, very focused on talking about her various areas of expertise (to the point where, if someone suggests a new idea for doing something, immediately says, “I’ve done that” and takes ownership of it). I’ve been struggling to navigate this relationship. Our meetings typically revolve around her talking about herself and pointlessly explaining known concepts. I’ve been working in this field longer than she has, yet I’m completely at sea about how to deal with this and point out that, yes, I know what I’m doing. She also keeps suggesting that she wants to “mentor” me and help me advance my career, but I don’t even understand what that could mean in this context since it’s not as if she has some extensive network. Anyway, I’m curious if there are strategies to help me essentially try to let my frustration go around all of this so I can get my work done without letting it stress me out.

    1. WellRed*

      This has nothing to do with introverts/extroverts. She’s self involved. Ignore the mentoring offers, at the very least.

    2. LMS manager*

      You might need to get more extroverted (said this introvert) so that you can manage the relationship. Do you bring an agenda, even if you don’t share it with her? Do you ask questions? Can you flatter her by requesting her expertise, so she knows you respect her and are listening? I had a manager like that and they responded positively to flattery. Yep, it was skin-deep flattery but it helped me get along with them.

    3. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Is she new to your company that you’ve been with for awhile or are you new to the company yourself? In addition to the other comments here, which I agree with, if you have been at the company for awhile and have capital to spend, it might be worth talking to your grandboss about the situation since it certainly doesn’t seem like these meetings with her are at all productive. But be careful going this route if your grandboss is the one who hired her or thinks she is the best manager on earth. And if you do go this route, be sure to keep all your concerns objective and work-related – no need to bring up introvert/extrovert stuff (I say this as a tried-and-true introvert myself) – and bring it all back to how it affects your ability to do your work.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Oh, also I’ve had good luck when people try to explain basic concepts to me like they think I was born yesterday by gently cutting them off and saying something like, “Oh yes, I learned all about llama characteristics when I was getting my llama Ph.D. a decade ago” or “Ah, yes, I did that training last year on unicorns and now I know exactly how they need to be brushed” or whatever. She sounds like the kind of person who would, rather than being irritated at your spouting your qualifications, might actually be impressed by them. But you have to be careful with this too that she doesn’t see you as rude for doing this.

    4. not nice, don't care*

      Sounds like new-ish manager has a narcissistic streak, and/or is trying to compensate for something. If you are comfortable doing so, talking to her boss might help. I’d ask if new manager has had any training or mentoring, and gently mention the issues that are affecting your work.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Sigh. Introvert here.

      She’s just kind of being a jerk. I assure you, the percentage of jerks in the general population is evenly distributed among introverts, extroverts, and ambiverts. Learning to have difficult conversations or set expectations tactfully is a skill that is not determined by your temperament or natural level of social energy.

      You will feel less frustrated if you stop swallowing your opinion and start saying things like, “You know, you can take it as read that we all know this,” and “We seem to have strayed from the agenda, what about Item 5?” and “No thanks, I’m good.”

    6. Ceanothus*

      I have a very similar new boss, and I am seeking similar advice. I have two things I’m doing that seem to be helping a little:

      1.) Saying “in the past, I’ve taken the lead on that, but I’m happy to have someone else take it on instead!” about 7000 times. And documenting it via email, usually by saying “Since you are taking on X project, I want to let you know I’m available to discuss any questions about specifics from previous years or potential sticking points!” and then just waiting. Because part of making things work on a large scale is making it obvious what isn’t working early. And hey, maybe he can juggle all that, and our capacity will increase proportionately.

      2.) This is maybe not a great idea, but I do keep a log of how long I spend on the phone with my boss and a checklist of whether he touched on his most annoying side-topics (his favorite sport, quasi-sexist commentary, specific “in my day” topics, his vendettas against specific people…) and then get myself a little treat for every 4 hours logged. And if I talk to him for more than 3 hours in a day then I plan on being pretty useless outside of work and plan accordingly — takeout for dinner, extra screen time for my child, a long walk or bedtime yoga in the evening etc.

      2b.) For every 40 hours I log talking to him I have to take a concrete step to find another job.

      3.) For the mentorship stuff, I’ve taken the opportunity to say “I’d love to take on more projects doing X, Y, and Z, if we have the capacity!” and then just nodded along for a little while. We’ll see if anything comes from it.

  27. VolunTold*

    I posted a few weeks ago that the organization I volunteer with had been taken over by a new ED who was long on ego but quite short on expertise. I ended up resigning from the org that afternoon, but because I can’t resist rubbernecking, I have heard via the volunteer grapevine that:

    The ED continued to send volunteers insane directives like “volunteer work must be done in person, during regular business hours, at headquarters” even though we all have full-time jobs and there is literally no reason things have to be done at a certain time or place. There were others but this one was so clueless I am going to throw it out as an all encompassing example.

    Over the next week more volunteers also left, slightly more than half. The rest continued to ignore her emails and do things their own way.

    New ED called an emergency meeting of the volunteers where she cried and said everyone was against her.

    When that failed to work, she called an emergency board meeting where she did essentially the same thing.

    She abruptly quit in a middle-of-the-night email, where she again said everyone was against her. Of the three board members who pushed for her to become ED, two resigned in solidarity, and the other has stayed on the board and is pushing for her to continue to run the organization, in some made-up position where she gets to send everyone orders but not do anything or be held accountable.

    When that failed to get traction, Board member began sending volunteers regular emails that were obviously written by new/former ED with even more insane directives and “corrections” to our work.

    I don’t know how it all ends with org. I am sure more volunteers will leave, and who knows, maybe they will get new ones that are more to their liking. I am not going to pretend I am going to stop watching this mess unfold from afar. I am stepping away from volunteering in this type of capacity altogether and am going to focus my energies on some hobbies and classes I have been backburnering for years.

    1. CommanderBanana*

      The org will probably fold. They may keep a website and try to continue sucking money from donors, but they’ll no longer be doing the work they exist to do.

      I’ve been a volunteer for several nonprofits for many years and I’ve seen this before. It’s frighteningly easy how quickly a bad ED or bad leadership can tank organizations like this.

      1. MsM*

        It’s unfortunately what happens when you get board members who treat the org more like a social club and not like an actual professional entity. Glad you’re out of the thick of it, VolunTold.

  28. anonodor*

    I think AAM has written about this before, but I have a coworker with body odor. Not gag inducing but definitely noticeable, and I don’t think anyone is comfortable raising it.

    But my workplace also has access to a rather nice gym with a fully stocked locker room, including showers. I know about different reasons like medical stuff, but considering this access, do you think it would be acceptable for someone to say “you can go upstairs and take a shower?” Makes the problem a bit different because it’s easier to “fix” to an extent.

    1. FashionablyEvil*

      No. Definitely do not say that. Fixing the problem is not the issue. Treating the coworker with as much kindness and dignity as possible is the issue.

    2. River*

      It seems like the staff have noticed and that you all have mentioned this to one another but not to the person with the body odor. Is it affecting your ability to work and/or is it distracting? If their body odor is something that you can’t put up with for much longer, I would mention this to their manager. Body odor conversations can be very uncomfortable but need to be addressed, especially if it’s affecting staff’s productivity/ability to work. I don’t think there’s a way to sugar coat this and one of those things that need to be addressed directly, in private between them and their manager. Address it, make it short and to the point, ask the person if they have any questions/comments (this will allow them to mention if anything is going on like medical/personal etc) and then let them leave. Its going to be uncomfortable and the employee will want to get out of the conversation asap. Don’t drag the convo either.

    3. WorkerDrone*

      To be honest, I don’t think the presence of a shower is actually a fix. No one really knows where someone else’s odor is coming from (clothes, body, hair, etc.).

      Moreover, most advice about saying something regarding body odor involves a private resolution – ideally, the person goes home and addresses the issue themselves, privately, through whatever means is appropriate for them (or not, lol, but that’s a different topic).

      Asking someone to stop their workday, go to a public area to shower, (I say public in the sense it’s a workplace gym, not that everyone is watching), not have any of their own products for hair, deodorant, etc., put their clothes back on (which may have absorbed the BO, assuming the clothes themselves aren’t the problem) and then come back to work… it seems like a walk of shame in front of your colleagues in a way.

      It feels like public humiliation to me. I definitely want to acknowledge that you are NOT in any way suggesting that the person be publicly shamed, I just feel like that’s an aspect that might not have been considered. There’s a big difference between using a gym shower because you chose to work out and being sent down to the shower by a co-worker because you stink.

      1. anonodor*

        Definitely not suggesting shaming- it’s pretty hot around here lately, and I have used the locker room to freshen up in that instance. It’s what I would do.

        It’s actually super nice, stocked with good products, and underutilized, since a lot of executives who would normally use the perks are still working remotely.

        1. WorkerDrone*

          I just wanted to clarify – the shame aspect of it comes from being “made” to march off to take a shower. There’s a big emotional difference between deciding for yourself to freshen up, and a co-worker telling you “hey, you smell bad enough I want you to go shower literally right now at work, please leave front of everyone who will watch you walk out and who also will know that you stink so bad that you have to shower this second.”

          I am struggling with how to phrase this in a way that doesn’t make it seem like you are actually thinking/saying that to someone else. I definitely think you’re coming from a more compassionate place than the message will be interpreted or understood as.

          But no matter how good your intentions are, this will absolutely be interpreted as humiliating by the person you’re asking to go shower.

    4. Seriously?*

      Um, no. There is this thing called the 5 second rule. If you notice something about a person that needs to be fixed, you can only comment on it if it can be resolved in 5 seconds or less. Think food in your teeth, twig in your hair. If it’s longer than that, it is not your place.

    5. Hyaline*

      I don’t think it’s going to be perceived as appropriate to tell someone to use the public shower at work. Pragmatically, they don’t even have their own shower supplies on them! Yes, someone (ideally, their manager) can and likely should raise the issue if it’s really a distraction and a problem, and yes, maybe this person will be so mortified they’ll immediately go and shower…but you can’t tell them to shower in the workplace gym.

    6. Laura W.*

      This needs to come from their manager. I had to do this once with a volunteer. Since the volunteer would use any open desk when they came in (we did not have dedicated space for volunteers), I framed it as being respectful about other people’s permanent spaces. I never used the word odor and instead referred to their strong, personal scent. While I could tell they were embarrassed, I tried to be as kind as possible. They end up leaving early – totally fine – and their personal scent was never an issue going forward.

      On the flip side, I had this issue with my coworker. I thought I was just imagining how bad it was; I would often have to breathe through my mouth if I ended up sitting next to her. Finally it came out that everyone in the office noticed it but no one wanted to say anything. We shared a manager so I brought it to him. It got escalated to the board of directors before anyone would talk to her. It did not get resolved even after he finally talked to her. I brought up at least three more times. I was told it would be resolved by the time we moved to our new office space with all new furniture. It was not. She eventually resigned, and thankfully, her replacement had lost her sense of smell as a teenager so there weren’t any issues when she was being trained by my coworker in her cubicle.

    8. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      I think it’s appropriate for you to mention what you noticed and how it affects you, and sk for the person to address it to reduce the impact on you. That part is your business.
      But it’s NOT appropriate or useful to speculate about the cause or how they should address it — that part is their business and very much no one else’s, unless they specifically ask for suggestions.

    9. MedicalIssues*

      Taking a shower is not necessarily a fix, especially if there’s a medical condition at play, and it may not be something they can easily do on demand.

      I have a medical condition that causes body odor. It only comes up as an issue periodically (most of the time people correctly assume that if I could do something about it I would), but when it does come up there’s very little I can say beyond it’s a medical condition and it’s already being managed the best it can be by a very good medical team. One of things I actually can sometimes do and will suggest is periodically taking a shower at the office if they have one, letting people see that I still have the same issue right after I shower. Because of my medical issues I have a fairly complex regime I need to follow when I shower so I will only do this if they have some type of locker or other locked place I can store my various shower stuff and if they allow me to do it on their time, but it has been helpful. I don’t drive and can’t easily cart all the stuff back and forth (there’s a lot) and it takes quite some time to do my required post-shower care so I need those to make it work on my end, especially as I see it as an extra thing I’m offering to do for them.

      Ironically, one of the only other things I can do is keep an air freshener at my desk. Folks here would argue about the fragrance, but it’s been something HR once told me to do in these situations and something that I’ve done proactively since (I’ve never worked in an office with no fragrance policies).

      I have also offered to have a conversation with anyone who has an issue to explain that it’s medical but the identity of anyone complaining is always kept private. I understand why, but it means unless they pick up on a hint like wet hair they have no way of knowing that there’s a medical condition involved. Again, most places make the assumption that if I could fix it I would, so the only time this comes up are at the places where an explanation is needed but then can’t be given which is beyond frustrating.

      I admit that I do get somewhat distrustful of some coworkers once it becomes an issue because I have no idea who has a problem being around me. I would much rather be able to have a rational conversation about it. Of course, that assumes the other party is willing to be rational. If they’re not going to accept that I’ve been living with this for 40 years and have either already tried or been told by doctors not to try all of the things they’re going to suggest I do then it’s not particularly productive to share that information.

      So, I personally would be okay with having a reasonable conversation with you as a coworker, but not if you think it’s something you can fix. Having a conversation with you about my reality would be something of a relief because I wouldn’t have to wonder who was complaining, but if you approached it as obnoxiously as you’re suggesting above I might complain about it. The better option is to approach it with a bit more of an open mind and without an assumption that the person is having an odor at you instead of trying to do their best near you.

  29. noncommittally anonymous*

    What do people think about “enthusiasm” as a hiring criterion?

    I manage an academic program that requires a certain number of internship hours to graduate. Recently, a local employer opened up a new internship program. The program is excellent – well paid for an internship, with highly flexible hours. My students have been very successful at getting these – we got over half of the openings for the past 2 years, but the spots are pretty competitive.

    A student recently approached me asking why he didn’t get that internship and why he’s having such a hard time finding a job. Part of the job issue is that our industry is in a bit of a downturn right now, which I explained. For that internship, one of the key factors they’re looking for is “enthusiasm”. They even said they’d choose a less experienced student that was enthusiastic over one with more experience.

    I have a bit of a problem with that. The student who approached me is almost certainly neurodivergent (I can see his accommodations), and who would certainly have a hard time expressing “enthusiasm” for the job in an interview. When I mentioned the requirement for “enthusiasm” he responded, what? It’s just painting teapots every day. What is there to be enthusiastic about? Which, well, he has a point. But it’s still problematic to express something like that in an interview.

    I remember being that age and feeling like the perky cheerleader types were getting all the good opportunities. Now, looking back and having learned to play the game better, I can see where I was making mistakes.

    I suggested he do some mock interviews at our Career Center (actually quite good), so that maybe they can coach him on how to express “enthusiasm” better in an interview setting. But I’m still a little stuck on the requirement for a particular personality type that has nothing to do with the particular job. (Literally, they’re working in the lab in a small group everyday – no public interaction where bubbliness would be an advantage.)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This is an internship thing that you really need to address across the board. Internships are not like other part-time student jobs.

      Interns are not “just painting teapots”. Interns are learning, from a worms-eye view, what the entire teapot industry is really like; the things that they won’t learn from the academic side. They may not be enthusiastic about the painting, but they absolutely have to be enthusiastic about the learning.

      1. Lost academic*

        This. It can also help to reframe the internship for the candidate in question and others down the road as described and also as opportunities for engagement, not every level tech work. The company isn’t likely offering internships because they need short term cheap grunt work (not primarily), but because they’re interested and invested in developing people to work in the industry in many roles. Candidates need to understand how they fit into that picture not just to get internships but to succeed at them.

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        This! I don’t care for “enthusiasm” as a deciding factor, but there are ways to express interest without coming off like a cheerleader. (Ask good questions, show that you’re thinking about how this fits into your long-term goals, and state at the end in clear language what makes you want that particular internship.)

        Practice interviews can go a long way here, because it seems less common for college students to have spent as much time doing real interviews for McJobs as it once was. (Why, yes, I love the brown and yellow uniform and am eager to put it on!)

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Interview question: “So why are you studying teapots at Wassamatta U?”

          Enthusiastic answer: “Well I was originally going to study llamas, but some of my friends dragged me to a hot beverage seminar and the grad student presentations there really opened my eyes – I had no idea it was such an interesting field. I was especially struck by how paint color changes the thermodynamics. So I changed my major after one semester and I find it such a rich and deep subject.”

          Unenthusiastic answer: “I dunno, I just want to get a degree, and you don’t have to take organic chemistry to get a BS in teapots.”

        2. Awkwardness*

          but there are ways to express interest without coming off like a cheerleader.

          This. There is a reason the student chose this field of study and there (hopefully) is a reason why they would like this one internship (besides money). They just have to express this.

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          This reminds me of David Sedaris’s famous essay about working at Macy’s as an elf, when he’s in line to apply to UPS as a driver. He said he wanted to work for UPS because he liked the brown uniforms.

    2. Hyaline*

      I’m not keen on the use of the term “enthusiasm” for the exact reason you’re mentioning–it feels unfairly punitive to people who for whatever reason are just not “enthusiastic.” You can’t control how the internship or other jobs perceives and hires based on a (biased view of a) personality trait, but I wonder if you can re-orient “enthusiasm” as “investment.” That is, help the student learn to show in interviews that they are invested and committed to doing good work and/or to the mission of the organization, however that best fits the job and field. They don’t have to be a bubbly cheerleader type, but learning to express that they have some interest (perhaps by researching the org first and finding something they connect to) and investment could be a strategy they can explore.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        +1
        Enthusiasm = interest! Us neurodivergent people can DEF turn out some special interest :)

    3. Dust Bunny*

      (I’m also ND, for the record.)

      I was bloody enthusiastic to not be unemployed, for starters. But if that isn’t enough incentive, point out that the enthusiasm can be for the long game of working in an industry/discipline you studied and in which you presumably want to advance. It’s like short-term enthusiasm vs. long-term enthusiasm. Most of us aren’t wild about the starter levels of our jobs but we get that we have to do that to move on to the better stuff.

    4. WellRed*

      I’m not an enthusiastic person but I can certainly express enthusiasm for a job. Your advice to him was spot on.

    5. Freddie Mercurial*

      Instead of “enthusiasm,” can that student and others think of it as “invested.” Show that you’re interested in the role and care about it without feeling like you have to be Go Team!

    6. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Enthusiasm is such a vague word anyway and implies that it is all about emotions/feelings and personality type, when really this is more about behavior they are looking for. So instead of an emotion he doesn’t feel, he would probably do better with a list of behaviors for “enthusiasm.”

      Do: sit facing and looking at the interviewer, sit up in the chair with feet on the floor, possibly leaning slightly forward, indicate listening with nodding or appropriate responses like “yes” or “okay”, speak clearly and don’t mumble or use non-word responses like grunts or mmm-hmmm. Make sure clothing, hair and accessories don’t obscure their face or hands so it is obvious they are alert.

      Don’t: sit slumped in chair, turned to the side, head down, looking around the room, playing with anything like a pen or phone or keys, and sighing/yawning.

    7. shrambo*

      I suspect that “enthusiasm” is an attempt to say “we want interns who are interested in this field and this particular job, or at least willing to fake interest and enjoyment.” It may help to replace “enthusiasm” with the specific, JOB-RELEVANT behaviors that one would expect to see from an “enthusiastic” hire.
      For example:
      – asks questions when they don’t understand something
      – is willing to have discussions on industry topics
      – participates in extracurricular opportunities related to the industry
      – talks about why they personally like this industry and this job during the interview

      You don’t have to act like a bubbly cheerleader to do these actions. You can do them in a soft-spoken, serious way. If the interviewer is truly looking for interest and investment in the job, they’ll recognize it. If what they’re really looking for is a certain personality type, then it won’t matter anyway.

    8. zoomeister*

      Huh. My first thought was that your school should talk to this employer, not that the student should have to change (at least not just that the student has to change). My office’s internship program is two-way. That is, we expect x,y, and z from our students, but their schools expect a, b, and c from us as well. If there is an issue on either side, we talk about it. In this case, the biz is immediately leaving out anyone who is more reserved. Maybe the school could talk to them about not leaving out a large swath of students who would be perfectly good at the internship (not in those words).

    9. Anon for This*

      In general, I see “enthusiasm” as a cover for age discrimination. Some of the language is pretty clear: they would choose a less experienced [student] that was enthusiastic over one with more experience. However, since you are talking about students, unless your program caters to returning or non-traditional students, that is probably not the case. You already noted that this internship is highly competitive, so your ND student may simply have lost out in the competition, but I agree with your concern about personality type. Give your ND student more training in interviewing, but I’d also look a little more closely at who they are actually hiring.

    10. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I hate “enthusiasm” so much. The last person our office hired was VERY enthusiastic. Exceedingly enthusiastic. Problem was that didn’t translate into being good at the job.

      I would never use the term or allow a job to go out that way. What does enthusiastic MEAN in a real job related way and make that part of the criteria/expectations.

    11. NormalPractice*

      I am an introvert and bad at expressing artificial enthusiasm. The thing is, some level of enthusiasm is a genuine job requirement for nearly every job I’ve ever had and has been expected at every interview. This is not an intern thing. If there’s some element of what a company does or a particular job description that genuinely resonates with me, I’ll try to show some enthusiasm for it. If the true answer is this is just a job and I need a job, I’ll pull out one of a few approaches I’ve worked up that show some enthusiasm about the industry or general type of work or something.

      This is harder for some people than others, but it is a skill that’s needed to successfully interview for most jobs that aren’t mainly looking for warm bodies.

      So you’re not really doing your students a favor by trying to omit enthusiasm (or substitute a different word/phrase like specific interest). Part of the goal of internships is helping students understand what working life is like. Interviewing in a way that most people require is one of those things they need to learn.

      1. allathian*

        Depends on what they mean by enthusiasm. Interest yes, engagement, absolutely. A cheerleader personality? Not necessarily.

    12. goddessoftransitory*

      While this reminds me of the old joke “Sincerity: if you can fake that, you’ve got it made,” I agree that retooling the thinking process from “rah rah!” to “interest in what this company can teach me.” Internships are designed to introduce young/new to the job people to the mores and rhythms of company life and help them refine and clarify what they want out of a job–they don’t have to pledge undying devotion to the teapots, but do have to show that they will bring something to the opportunity and take something away.

    13. GythaOgden*

      Neurodivergence is not mutually incompatible with enthusiasm! It just takes a different form, but enthusiastic people are generally easier to motivate and find reward from what they do, and thus more likely to move up and take the rough with the smooth as they go. I wouldn’t fault a company for wanting an enthusiastic person in a role rather than someone who was apathetic about the job.

      I’m enthusiastic about my job in property management because I’m happy to be useful after ten years of diminishing returns on reception, but also it’s in healthcare facilities and I have a hand in keeping hospitals that have served me and my family from cradle to grave going and pay back into that system. I enjoy the feeling of being able to get my team’s numbers up by tracking their objectives and goals and signing off all the bits and pieces on their behalf, and that I have the confidence to tell managers what they should be doing as an admin and team ‘sheepdog’.

      In fact neurodivergent people can be enthusiastically over the top about things — autism skews that dramatically to the point where someone might care intensely about a specific thing and not give a crap about something else. The best thing for a lot of us in the workplace is to find a niche — it’s something I struggled with because my neuroses were a bad fit for the niche I picked out and it took me a long time to reconcile myself to the fact that my lack of physical stamina (which I think is part and parcel of a neurological impact on my physiology; autism is not just a personality quirk but has a real impact on how you’re wired to the point of dyspraxia) meant I would never end up as an MP, still less Prime Minister. And if the intern isn’t enthusiastic about the role being given, he might be apathetic to the point of not caring and you want someone who at least /cares/.

      Everyone has strengths and weaknesses; I will say that my enthusiasm for politics was not matched by a strength; my strength came out when I became less transfixed by national party politics and went into the public sector where the actual work got done. Once I settled there I knew I was trading money for security but I also work with some really motivated and energetic people and it makes things a lot more positive as a result.

      I love what I do now and want to move up and am thus enthusiastic enough at work to jump at opportunities that come my way and put up with less than ideal situations in order to get there. I’ve observed from my political role models that working hard and not being a grandstanding prima donna is a more lasting way of getting where you want to be, but that really has to be fuelled by enthusiasm at times because of the vagaries of business and decisions made by other people. I also enjoy working with people — another of whom is on the spectrum — who want to be where they are and do what they’re doing, and the atmosphere is so much different to what it was in my previous role where enthusiasm was regarded as selling out.

      So yeah, enthusiasm matters a lot and neurodivergent people are capable of it. In fact, if this guy really is neurodivergent, then his lack of enthusiasm is a big sign that this might not be his niche at all. You would be setting him up to fail in a big way and that would be worse rather than acknowledging what you need doesn’t fit his particular skillset or interests.

    14. loggerhead*

      So, I think if you are reinforcing the idea that bubbliness/enthusiasm/choose another word only matters when you’re interacting with the public, you need to make a shift. How you interact with lab mates is hugely significant. I wonder if his lack of enthusiasm is being interpreted as a lack of friendliness or ability to take direction or some other quality that people who spend hours together in a lob following process would expect from each other. It’s not about being bubbly, either. It’s about using words that indicate he is interested in other people and the work, openness to learning, and being pleasant to be around.

      He really needs to do some mock interviews or something so you can get some data on how he’s coming across. My dad actually ran into a similar problem. He’s very knowledgable but gruff and brief at first. Later on his humor and personality come out, but he wasn’t showing that in interviews because he didn’t seem “enthusiastic.” He had to work at that.

    15. Garlic knot*

      I was once rejected by HR during a job hunt with a comment, “This girl doesn’t want to work for us.” (Relayed to the hiring manager, not me). I had the personality of a mouse and just moved to the country two month prior. However, the hiring manager needed my skills, so I was kept on board as s freelancer for larger projects and was officially hired three months later. No personality transplant happened in-between, but I was promoted less than a year later and became second in command around year three.

  30. Uno*

    My small nonprofit director seems to be over their head. They were brought on a few years ago with a key goal of leading a major overhaul. Their style has never fully meshed with the full staff already in place, leading to perpetual dissatisfaction and institutional issues never really addressed let alone resolved. When concerns are raised, they tend to get defensive to the point of snapping at staff or implying concerns are not our job.

    It’s not clear if they are unaware of this or just not sure how to address it. Beyond continuing to suggest that they need to work more directly with the staff to settle things (on the big project and beyond), what can the staff do? The board is not willing to hear concerns.

    2. MsM*

      It’s hard to say without more details, especially because I can see both a world in which the ED is going around trying to implement change without really understanding what the long-term ramifications of that are and not being particularly diplomatic about it, and one in which the staff are digging in simply because they don’t like change or are protecting their territory at the expense of what’s best for the institution. (Of course, it could also be a combination of those problems.)

      Regardless, if the board isn’t going to get involved or is on the ED’s side, then the staff either needs to focus on the things they can control while trying to find a way to frame concerns in a way that sounds less like criticism, or just decide this isn’t going to get better and move on.

    3. not nice, don't care*

      Are there members of the public that can provide input? Do the director’s missteps cause problems with the org’s performance or optics?

  31. Exhausted on Main*

    Yesterday my wife was fired from her dream job. It’s totally devastated her.

    It wasn’t exactly a surprise- the last 6 months have been a struggle of her trying to get her managers on her level about her ADHD, an infuriating accomodations process, and them just not communicating in a way that worked for her leading to her backsliding a lot and not being able to keep up. The role was a new one, with the only other person who’s held it not leaving a lot of SOP and documentation, and leaving very suddenly last year. It was a bad fit all around for both the organization and her, but I truly feel it shouldn’t have had to end this way and it just blows. She got a lot of value from her job, and her work was excellent when she had what she needed, and she was on a very visible level in our industry making good change. Her spirit has been totally broken by this.

    If you’ve been fired before, or know someone who has, can you drop a reply just saying how you moved forward, and kept your sense of self worth? And how the world didn’t end? I’m collecting them to give to her when she’s ready. (Today is for eating a lot of pasta, crying, and putting bookshelves together.)

    1. Not That Jane*

      Not exactly fired, but I was working a very high stress job serving clients with complex needs, and my annual contract was not renewed… which in my field means I wasn’t doing what the organization wanted / needed. Looking back over a decade later, I can say that it was actually the right call for everyone. I was getting serious burnout from the stress of trying to do a difficult job without adequate resources, experience, or management. Overall, it wouldn’t have been a good career move to stay, even if they had wanted me. At the time I had the amazing luxury of being able to take a year off from working to get some further education, and then was rehired in my field, at an organization with much better training, collegiality, growth potential, and values more aligned with my own.

      So, yeah, it absolutely sucked & it stung to have that feedback about my job performance, but it quickly came to seem like a good thing in hindsight. Hang in there!

      1. AnonAugust*

        My question when that happens is, how do you get a decent reference if you got fired? What if they say you’re not eligible for rehire?

        1. Lily Rowan*

          When I was fired, the boss who had hired me had already left, so I used her as the reference from that job.

          To the OP: It definitely sucks, but the world didn’t end! In my case, I had already been thinking about my next steps, and had decided to go to grad school, so I just accelerated that plan. If it’s all feasible to do something completely different, I do recommend it. I’m good at school, so came out of that feeling successful, which helped in my next round of job interviews. So I’m not saying it’s grad school, but is there something she can do for a period of time that will give her a boost? Best of luck.

        2. Not That Jane*

          In my situation, my manager gave an honest reference to the next job, which did surface some concerns that the new hiring manager came back to check in with me about. But, because I had contextualized some of this in the interview (“it was high stress and not a very good fit”), they knew to take the former manager’s opinion with a grain of salt. So I guess it could have bitten me in the butt, for sure, but in my specific situation it ended up OK.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I was fired way back in 2007 and it effectively ended my career in journalism, which I had been preparing for since I was in high school. It was a blow for sure. It felt very unfair and it took me awhile to reframe it.

      So, don’t be surprised if it takes her a little while. But I would encourage her, after an initial mourning period, to focus on basic self-care for awhile – regular exercise, not too much stress eating, and some reflection on what she wants to do next, what she had control over and what she didn’t.

      By all accounts, this was not a reflection on her abilities or talent, but simply a bad fit with bad managers. If you have the ability for her to have a few sessions with a counselor, that might help her talk through and process it. Otherwise it will just take time and reflection.

    3. Employee of the Bearimy*

      I was fired from a mid-level management job after only two months, and it was incredibly stressful because it was my first job after I had relocated my whole family to be closer to our extended families. My spouse had trouble finding work so at the time I felt like it was make or break for this job even though I could tell it wasn’t a good fit. For me, focusing on how much less day-to-day stress I was experiencing after being fired really helped me through. Knowing that it wasn’t going to work out and it was just luck that they got to end it instead of me helped. She should think about the fact that they were never going to allow her to be successful in this position, and that she does know what success needs to look like for her as she moves on. Someone out there will want her just as she is!

    4. anonymoose*

      I’m so sorry to hear this about your wife. Being fired stinks on ice. I was fired from a position between FMLA approvals because of debilitating migraines. Over all, it was the best for me. I was in a position that was stagnant, not right for me. The journey to where I am was not always easy, but it really turned out to be a blessing in disguise.

    5. handfulofbees*

      I was fired from what I thought was a dream job when I was 23. Looking back, my supervisor was ineffective, I was taking too much of the job home, the tech startup culture was not for me, and I was burned out in six months. It definitely was not the dream job I thought it was, but it took a lot of time and grief to come to that conclusion.

      wishing the best for your wife!

    6. pally*

      I’m so sorry about your wife’s situation. Yeah, they could (and should) have handled things better. No question. I don’t think managers think about what being fired does to an employee’s head.

      My sister quit a receptionist job because the environment was just ugly (with no job lined up). Folks were actively sabotaging other folk’s work product as they were trying to destroy people’s careers. She wanted no part of that.

      She applied for an admin job. They were looking to replace someone who had held the job for over 20 years. First thing they did was administer a written test. Geography, grammar, and other topics. She scored the highest. After the interview she was hired.

      She worked very hard to do all the tasks her predecessor did, even though it was overwhelming at first. She felt that there was a real lack of direction from her boss. She asked her boss for clarification on his directions. He could not do this. She asked co-workers about what her boss wanted. They could not explain. All were friendly and encouraging (“I know you’ll get it!” “Keep your chin up!”).

      After 6 months she was fired. They were sorry but felt she wasn’t working out. No one explained their expectations or put her on any sort of PIP. She thought she was doing well covering all the things her predecessor did. Guess that wasn’t enough.

      Losing this job really hurt. She began to second guess quitting that prior job.

      She signed up for temp work. Her first or second assignment was to the local hospital. She wasn’t sure what she was in for, having never worked in a hospital setting before. She ended up working there for the next 20+ years. They put her in records where her eye for detail was utilized. She flourished! She loved the job! They were good with adjusting the schedule when her mental health issues needed it (flexible schedule, time off to get used to the med adjustments, etc.). Lots of benefits and good pay too.

      It was worth the two crummy jobs.

    7. Anon for this...*

      Oh man I feel for your wife! I was in a position a few years ago that was NOT the right fit for me for a number of reasons but I had held on because well $$ and $$ reasons. I found out through a friend at work while I was on brief medical leave that my GB was interviewing people for my job. I started IMMEDIATELY job hunting and thankfully was able to quit before they could fire me but man was that a gut punch. (no PIP either)

      Its never never easy to be “rejected” but if your wife knows it wasnt the right place for her, thats what she needs to hang on to. Hopefully they have agreed to provide references and hopefully they will do right by her by saying it just wasnt the right fit. Potential employers should understand that doesnt mean that she doesnt/cant work – it just literally means that what she was doing in the past didnt speak to her strengths.

      Hugs to you both.

    8. I Love the Olympics*

      When I was a junior in high school, my dad was fired from a job he’d held for 5 years, for which we’d moved to a new town. He was a manufacturing manager and the business owner presented a very different persona once Dad was hired. Dad had been unhappy for a while but for some reason hadn’t started looking for a new job. He was out of work for 9 months. He then got a new job, and eventually rose to become the vice-president of one of the operations. He got company stock. He loved the job (and was very, very good at it). So it all ended well! (Side note: he took the family out to dinner on the night he was fired. And being a very handy guy, he did a lot of house projects while he was job-hunting.

    9. Donkey Hotey*

      The one time I was fired, it was the end of June (of that year). I nominally went through the motions of job searching for all of July and half of August before my brilliant and sensitive wife pointed out that I was in shock/mourning. I had to deal with that before I could really search in earnest. If she had a lot of herself invested in that job, she’s likely feeling some grief. Give that some time.

    10. Aggretsuko*

      I barely managed to get out without getting fired, but it was a close call because they sure wanted to.

      I’ll keep it short: after 12 years of hell, I’m in a much better job that is actually supportive and works with my skills and isn’t only about what I’m not good at. If it happened for me, of all people, I hope it can for her too.

    11. Having a Scrummy Week*

      I was fired basically because my manager didn’t like me (I refused to engage in gossip with her about other employees). It was probably the best thing that ever happened to me! I moved into a different field and doubled my salary within 3 years.

      Your wife will be just fine! She will find another job she loves. Enjoy the pasta!

    12. Stars*

      Man, your post sounded like something I could have written. Very similar facts, and I too was devastated. I thought no one would ever ever hire me again. But! That was forty years ago and I have had a number of jobs since then, and been successful at them. There IS life after being fired. Let me say it again: There IS life after being fired. Yes it took me a long time to feel better about it, but eventually she will. In the meantime, much much sympathy and a lot of hugs. Also: it’s awesome that you are such a supportive spouse.

      1. Stars*

        p.s. I was in a very very small industry, and everyone knew I had been fired. So I was doubly embarrassed. And at one interview the guy basically said, well, you got fired from X, you’ll never work again. But! It turned out a lot of other people in the industry understood exactly the “fit” problem, and that it wasn’t all my fault. So it took a little time, but I did get another job, in the same field.

    13. Bast*

      I worked a lot of food service/retail as a teenager and young adult, and ended up obtaining a paralegal degree while working so I could quit the service jobs. My *very first* paralegal job — who hired me damn well knowing I had no relevant experience and had just graduated school — essentially presented me with a “resign or be fired” situation about 1.5 years in. There was some extenuating circumstances — I had just announced my pregnancy and this company was very much a “good old boys” club — and this was after a huge raise and a great 1 year eval. They cited my “lack of experience” as a reason that it wasn’t working out. It was a huge blow to my ego, even though I knew likely that the pregnancy was the real deal breaker for them, as not one mention had been made of my work product. I had worked so hard for this only to have it blow up in my face. I had a former colleague in that job as well (not management or HR, so no one that had any impact in the decision) tell me maybe it was best if I “took time off” until my kids were older. I am sure that was the all around attitude there.

      I moped for awhile, had my baby, got another paralegal job, and quickly got promoted to a supervisory position. I did all of that while working through law school, which I grad I’d say it all worked out in the end, even if it seemed like a disaster at the time.

    14. Bitte Meddler*

      I’ve been laid off twice (dot-com burst and Great Recession) but fired just once.

      My immediate response is not one anyone should emulate. I stayed up for something like 8-9 days straight, reading sci-fi books, and only went to sleep when I started having auditory and visual hallucinations.

      After that, I wallowed and stayed in a depressive, non-communicative funk for a couple of months. (I lived alone, so it was easy to drop off the face of the earth. Too easy).

      It was only when I almost ran out of savings entirely that I snapped out of it. I read some books about being fired, what to learn from it, and how to bounce back. What that did for me was give me permission to see the firing as a result of a very bad fit. I interview really well and I’d oversold myself. I ended up in over my head and my anxiety over that sent me spiraling at work, which made me an even worse employee than one who would have said, “A lot of this is over my head and I need to back up a few steps before I can be fully productive.”

      I took that mindset into my cover letter and interviews. “They were a great company and I had a great manager. I was the wrong person for that role and I didn’t know it until I got into the job. I did my best, but I was a square peg in a round hole. The biggest lesson I learned is that I should be more transparent in interviews about my experience and what I am immediately capable of / suited for; and to request the same transparency from the employer, so that we can both make sure we’re making the right choice for each of us.”

      Literally none of the people I interviewed with said anything other than something along the lines of, “I whole-heartedly agree.”

      Being fired didn’t stop me from finding another job within a couple months of starting my job search in earnest.

      Your wife was a bad fit for the role and/or the role was a bad fit for her. She’s not a bad employee or bad person.

      Give her a few days to get past feeling like the rug was completely pulled out from under her, and encourage her to craft a neutral internal story about what happened. I mean, doing excellent work when you’ve got the right resources is a pretty much what any good employer would want out of an employee.

      Maybe she can borrow a line I used when a hiring manager asked me what I would do differently prior to being fired. I said, “I would have cried ‘Uncle’ and looked for a new job instead of trying to force myself to fit into that one.”

    15. Anonymous Demi ISFJ*

      I got fired from a dream job last summer. This is in a niche corner of the performing arts, so business norms pretty much don’t apply.

      They hired me on the spot when they were desperate for people and then decided not to renew my contract at the end of the season. The director told me at my review that (paraphrased) “you’re a great person and we really like you but we can’t renew your contract because XYZ reasons that I’ve never bothered to mention before. We’d absolutely consider having you back once you’ve sorted these things out, though. Thanks, and I’m sorry.” In the moment I said “Thanks, I appreciate that.” and left the meeting. I wish I had said “Well you should be sorry, that’s a shit way to treat people that you profess to like.” They kept me on through the end of the season, but as much as I’d like to work there again someday, it’s more important to me to be able to trust my director.

      Rehabilitating your professional self-esteem is never fun – I’ve had to do it three times now. I hope your wife can find other opportunities with people who know and like her work (and are already fine working with the ADHD) and take the time she needs to grieve.

    16. I Have RBF*

      Years ago, I was nastily fired from a job after they tried to sandbag me, gaslight me, and rearrange my entire personality. It had already sent me into a depressive spiral even before I was fired, but that was the vomit icing on the shit cake.

      I cashed out my 401k (not great, but I desperately needed the money) and spent six months putting my head and work ethic back in place. I couldn’t even interview without spewing negativity, I was in such a bad place.

      After that, I started temping, just to get some short term “wins” without commitment. A couple years later I got a full time job that lasted seven years, a personal best (my field and area tends to have frequent layoffs.)

      So my recommendation is that she takes time to reset her expectations and emotional relation with the work she does. She needs to fix the stuff in her head that got screwed up from the mess, and recalibrate what she expects to give and get from a workplace.

      Give her a hug and let her know it’s not the end of the world. She can use the opportunity to re-evaluate her career and work life, then go forward.

    17. SansaStark*

      I really feel for your wife and I’m sure she feels better just having you at her side. Been fire twice, once from a “dream job.” That second one was one of the best things that ever happened to me, but it took *years* before I could see it that way (even though I did feel a tremendous sense of relief when I didn’t have to go to a job where I was struggling). I felt all the terrible things that of course you’d feel. But it changed the trajectory of my life in the best way. I’m now in a job/industry that’s a much better fit for my skills and interests. Today will be hard, the next bit will be hard, but eventually there’s a light at the end of the tunnel.

      I had to leave that job on my resume for awhile bc I was there for a couple of years and needed to account for the time. I spoke honestly but briefly when I had to explain why I wasn’t there anymore and it wasn’t a big deal. It didn’t end my ability to have a fulfilling professional career like I thought it would.

      Encourage her to get some rest — situations like these are tiring and she might not realize how utterly exhausted she is after dealing with this for 6 months. I slept for like 18 hours after getting fired. Who knew that weight was so heavy?! We’re all rooting for you guys!

    18. SemiFired*

      Focus on the fit issues. Own what happened and explain what you learned from it. Don’t bad mouth the employer more than absolutely necessary. Evaluate if there are things she could do differently to be more successful in the future including job type, company type, industry, etc.

      So in my case I was always offered a layoff but I’ve had two layoffs where I was the only one laid off so they felt more like being fired than my other layoffs. In one case I was hired as employee #4 at a start up and they really preferred a good old boys environment. They were happy with my work but I didn’t really fit in socially. I was officially laid off because they determined they didn’t need my role at the company until they were larger and could better devote my salary to another developer. That was not untrue, but IMO not the full story. They didn’t have the smoothest layoff process and had no HR so my post layoff experience was difficult, so that did not help.

      The other time I had just had an excellent performance review and took a fall in the office (my chair broke). I was told I needed to file a work man’s comp claim but they complained about it incessantly then let me go a week later. Here, too, there was a glimmer of legit layoff in that they officially let me go because they didn’t get phase II of a government contract they’d hired me to work on, but they subtlely made it clear the workman’s comp claim played a big role in why I was the one let go.

      The workman’s comp place was my first fulltime job. It was an awful job, but I moved for it and was doing well there. It was absolutely gut wrenching to get that great performance review then be let go less than 2 weeks later. I was in a location without many employers and I ended up doing a nationwide search using a new website that published the Sunday classifieds from 8 big national papers (it was the mid90s – this was revolutionary stuff!). Having this outlet and something productive to do was really helpful. I got a job in Boston and that’s helped since because there are a ton of places to work here so in subsequent layoffs (or firings) I at least had legitimate prospects – a few when the market was slow and a lot when it wasn’t.

      I did develop some other coping mechanisms but they were mostly because I lived alone.

      I will share two other things:

      1) depending on her background and experience it may not really be possible to get a filler job

      2) there is nothing more demoralizing than being turned down for volunteer work, so be cautious if pursuing this as a filler

      Good luck!

    19. Asdfqwerty*

      About 15 years ago very early in my career I got fired from an arts administration job adjacent to the performing arts field my degrees were in. As a straight A student who rarely failed I was devastated. In particular, they questioned my writing abilities (they wanted flowery language and I was more of a direct bullet point writer). Looking back, it was truly a poor job fit on both sides. This firing got me back in touch with a finance company I had done a summer temp job with and they ended up offering for me to come back and train me in financial operations, which ended up being a great match for my skill set, make a great salary, and still let me have time to perform on the evenings and weekends. I’ve gotten promoted many times and I’m so happy, but I wouldn’t be where I am today if I hadn’t gotten fired. When a door closes a window opens. Today, eat the pasta! I ate an entire carrot cake the day I got fired. Tomorrow, try to see things objectively. If the accommodations weren’t right, it wasn’t a fit. I hope your wife will have a similar lookback story someday about how a mismatch in one job pivoted her to her next dream role!

  32. Jenn*

    I’m a librarian and I’ve never been interested in a job in academia. However, a job at a local university has just opened up that I am interested in, but it’s a tenure track position. I’m vaguely familiar with tenure, but would like to hear about how it actually works, especially from those in the academic library field. In general, what are the expectations? How much “extra” work is required?
    Another question, because it’s a state job, it doesn’t pay into social security (but does into Medicare), but you are eligible for the state pension plan. How much of an issue/hassle is this? I do have enough credits to qualify for Social Security, so I’m not sure how that would impact anything.

    1. Lucy Librarian*

      My experience as a tenure-track academic librarian was a similar process to traditional academics. There was a 3-year review and you “went up” for tenure at year 5. You’d find out during year 6. We also had regular annual reviews. The requirements can vary, so that would be worth finding out if you get an interview. These can be number and types of publications, presentations, committee work, and so on. One thing to do would be to look up librarians who are already there — on linkedin or somewhere else — and see what kind of publications and presentations they have. If you dig into the university website, some of this might be available online.

      In an interview you might be asked what your research interests are. In general I don’t feel like librarians get a lot of training in research the same way a PhD might. A lot of the research is directly related to the job. You could also look at conference programs online to see what people are presenting. It would be worth finding out if you get time from your regular work schedule for research. You may or may not. A fair number of publications and talks are along the lines of “We did this thing and here’s how.” I’m not in a tenure position anymore but I did the same kind of thing!

      I don’t know about the pension vs social security except I would want to know how many years I’d have to work there to be vested in the pension plan.

    2. Professor Ronny*

      I am a tenured professor. I’m currently collecting Social Security since I am over 65. When I retire, I will also receive a state pension. In our system, you must be vested to retire with benefits. I believe it takes 10 years to become vested in our system but I’m not sure and it’s not an issue for me since I have 25+ years.

      The short answer is you can collect Social Security based on your current credits and you will get a state pension if you stay long enough to vest.

    3. Bunny Watson*

      Tenure requirements will vary by institution, but generally you will be evaluated on your job performance as your primary criteria. You will then also have to do some publishing and presenting at conferences that counts as your research or professional development area, and then you will have a service component usually where you join campus or professional committees. The amount of each of these is dependent on the tenure criteria at that place.
      I know some are much heavier on the publishing and others on the service. The good news is that these things are usually spelled out in the tenure guidelines. We send a copy to all interviewees, so you would get that info pretty early on. Sometimes it’s posted on the library or campus website so you can look for it as well if it’s not sent to you. I do not know about the Social Security. I work for a state institution, but they do contribute to SS. Good luck!

    4. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      Lucy Librarian has covered the timeline.

      Different institutions have different requirements for tenure. At mine, you had to have scholarship, teaching and service elements. The scholarship expectations were at least 1 peer reviewed article per year (often inspired by the work you were doing), plus conference presentations and posters.

      Teaching as a librarian was classes or workshops (at least 1 per term, with 1 peer observation per year). I also taught a 1-credit course on library research for one department for several years. Teaching was harder for my behind the scenes colleagues (e.g., cataloguers) as they weren’t asked by instructors to teach a library-related session in their courses so they often did workshops or classes for other librarians at conferences or other venues. They had to collect student feedback for it to count.

      Service is service to the library, the university and to the profession – serving on library committees, university committees and library association volunteer roles. I spent years on the animal care and use committee for my institution as a non-scientist member and served as secretary/treasurer/president of my association division over the years. Another venue for profession service was journal editor. Most of this can be done within your standard day, but you need to be self-motivated to get it done. Also my colleagues and I attended conferences pretty much every year either to present or serve on a committee. My institution paid 100% for your main conference and 50% to 75% on others depending on what you were doing at the conference.

    5. Rex Libris*

      In addition to everything else, my advice is to run the other way if you ask about their tenure guidelines, and they can’t produce them and/or give a vague answer about it. If their tenure process isn’t spelled out concretely, with straightforward expectations and benchmarks, the criteria ends up being completely subjective, and mostly based on currying favor and playing stupid political games with the right people on the tenure committee.

  33. LousyLibrarian*

    I am getting way ahead of myself, but I like to be well and mentally prepared in situations like these. Context: I’m applying for two jobs right now, one of which I’ve already interviewed for. They are more or less lateral moves (Job A, from what I’m hearing through the grapevine, may actually be intended for folks a couple steps down on the hierarchy, but that’s unclear; they interviewed me anyway and my current compensation falls within the pay range, albeit close to the top; Job B is much more clearly lateral) in two different library systems. Commute is important to me — the less, the better. My current commute is 25-45 minutes (sometimes up to 2 hours on very rare days). Job A would be 25ish minutes and Job B would be 5 (!) minutes. I’m likely to take a small pay cut (2-5k) for either. That’s fine, BUT — I’d like to request the following:

    – Maintain my current level of leave accrual (6 hours annual/period); Job A offers 5 to start (I might be willing to settle for this) and Job B offers 4 to start

    – Start in November (I am slated to present about a recent project at a conference and my current workplace is where I did the project and partially funding my attendance in October)

    – If November is impossible, I’d maybe consider earlier, but must be out a week and a half in September for my much-delayed honeymoon.

    Are these reasonable requests for the field? How likely am I to get them? Am I more likely to get them if I note the pay cut? Any other strategies/thoughts to be aware of as I start planning a response to a potential offer?

    I realize an offer is not guaranteed, but I’m huge when it comes to being prepared, so let’s proceed as if I can expect both offers. And fingers crossed they come in around the same time!

    1. Cazaril*

      That is a long delay for a job start. As an employer, I would be tempted to take another candidate who would start sooner than to be shorthanded for another three months. If it were me, I would offer the option of starting earlier, but with leave for the honeymoon and the conference. I’d also ask them to match the support for the conference. You could say that starting in November would be your preference, but the leave for the two events would compensate if they needed you sooner.

  34. Roz Doyle*

    I’ve been job searching and I think an offer will be coming my way in the next week or so. I do like my current job (co-workers and the work itself) and would stay if the pay was better. I think my manager will make a counter-offer when I give my notice (if I do indeed receive a job offer that I want to take). I’m trying to weigh what I’ll do. I’m leaning toward taking the job offer. Of course, this is all speculation as I haven’t received any offers yet! But I’m really not sure what I’ll do:
    Pros of Staying:
    -I have a lot of institutional knowledge and I’m comfortable with my work and co-workers. I’m good at this job
    -Good benefits
    Cons of Staying:
    -Salary not good
    -Manager is sometimes a micro-manager (when he’s not busy)

    One other thing is that I’ve learned recently that a co-worker is making a LOT more than I am (about $30K more) for essentially the same work. They are in a ‘senior’ role in this job while I’m in a mid-level role. but we all do the same work. They also receive bonuses while I do not. This is what sent me off on my job search.

    I think the usual advice is to refuse counter-offers. What if I don’t receive any offers? I guess I would ask my boss for a raise, but I doubt I would get one that would bring me to the level of my coworker. I’ve asked in the past for a title change, but they keep saying they are working on it and nothing happens.

    1. jasmine*

      Have you asked your current manager directly about the pay discrepancy between you and your coworker?

      How do you feel about the culture at the potential new job? If you feel good about it, I’d take the offer. If you’re not sure and you get an offer, I’d ask to get on a call with someone on the team so you can ask questions. If you’ve already done an interview with a team member, then maybe ask if you can send them some follow up questions before making your decision.

    2. zhwb*

      Oh man, I’d say take the job offer and don’t entertain any counter offers. That detail about your co-worker would seal it for me. If you don’t get this current job offer, keep at it and one will come your way eventually! Good luck!

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Agreed. The coworker thing is a red flag, as is the fact that you’ve asked for a title bump and they say sure but then don’t follow through.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        Agreed. Even if you do get a bump, it won’t be close to what they’re paying your coworker (and who knows who else?)

    3. Parenthesis Guy*

      Ask your boss for a conversation about how he sees your role different than your co-worker. If he can give you concrete reasons, then you know what to work on. If not, you know there’s not much you can do. Depending on this convo, you can ask for a raise. But if they’re not going to give you a title change, they’re probably not giving you money.

      In the meantime, keep on trying to get a new position. Eventually, you’ll find something.

  35. Manager*

    One of my employees is having an issue that I am struggling to quantify to give feedback about. The best way I can describe it is “bad energy”. There isn’t a specific behavior that I can pinpoint that’s causing an issue, but it is not pleasant to work with them, and I have noticed that when they are away my other employees come out of their shells and seem more relaxed. There isn’t something specific that I can say they are doing, it’s just kind of… their way of being in the world. I’m not sure what to say to them, any thoughts?

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Is it really just a “vibe”, though, or are they brusque, slow to reply (about work-related information), short-tempered, etc.? Because those things are address-able.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think you have to do some careful observation and thinking about this, and try to identify some specifics. “You have bad energy” is not actionable. What the heck am I supposed to do with that?

      Not to mention that if I got criticized by my bosses for having “bad energy”, I’d either think they were all loons, or they were looking for an excuse to fire me.

    3. River*

      This is one of those things that you can’t really act on unless you have solid proof of them doing something inappropriate. Can you name a specific example of them being “unpleasant”. Maybe they are socially awkward or could be spectrum-y. I had an employee that was blunt and to the point when it came to work related things that made others a little anxious around them. They definitely were socially awkward and had a lot of interests that most didn’t seem interested in. I find that can be a strength, not having similar people in the same department/company, etc. Maybe you can sit down with them and be like “Hey so that thing you’re doing/saying/etc can be perceived this way.” Don’t name anyone specific and if they ask if anyone has talked to you, say no. You can say “Oh its just something I’ve noticed”. At least that way it doesn’t get traced back to anyone and your employee doesn’t burn bridges with others.

      1. saskia*

        Soft skills, which seem to be the issue here, can absolutely be targeted for improvement. You can have poor soft skills without being actively inappropriate.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          Soft skills could be the issue here – that’s a definite, even likely possibility – or it could be a situation where the coworkers just dislike this person and have decided they are causing “bad energy,” (like the way beer run boss and their team thought the older coworker was to blame for the conflict they had with her – not suggesting Manager is like this, but it is possible that others on their team are and they are seeing conflict when this person is around because she is being targetted) or it could just be that they don’t fit in in some way and people are awkward around them, possibly due to their lack of soft skills.

        2. NotRealAnonForThis*

          Honest question sort of along these lines, I promise its honest and not snarky: can self-awareness be coached? I’m curious folks’ thoughts on this one, I have a coworker with either zero self-awareness or….something. The things that he says out loud, regardless the audience, are always somewhere between “are you kidding me?” and “Um, this meeting is being recorded and that type of statement is reportable, knock it off.”

          He’s introduced himself to an outside client as “the Supreme Senator” (we are not in government, we do not have ironically catchy job titles like this, and this was in a “suit and tie glad handing” meeting with new clients). He leans into his “Senior Llama Groomer” title (the title was negotiated as part of his acceptance of this position) but then asks the rest of us llama groomers very very basic questions about llama husbandry. Its not so much the specifics of the products we use, either, its about basic care. Any questions directed his way will segue into a clever anecdote about his paternal relatives who are also in this industry.

    4. shrambo*

      There is something specific that they are doing, and if you decide that you need to say something, the only way to make it effective is if you you to name exactly what the behaviors are and also what they should be doing instead. Imagine if your manager sat you down and all they said was, “You’re making people uncomfortable and need to stop.” That would not be actionable, nor would it lead to improvement. What would be helpful is something like, “You need to stop making self-deprecating comments in the workplace [a specific behavior] because it gives off the impression that you don’t think you can do your job [a specific impact]. If a task is beyond your abilities, you should ask for help or for someone to review your work [a specific alternative].”

    5. Turingtested*

      It’s tough, but I handle this by being very specific and giving the benefit of the doubt.

      “I noticed that when people greet you, instead of responding with a word, you grunt or make eye contact and frown. It can mean a lot of things, like you’re very focused but it comes off a bit rude. Can you make an effort to respond with words?”

    6. Irish Teacher.*

      I think that you really need to figure out what is behind it because there are at least two possibilities here. It is possible the person is in some way showing hostility or being negative or is otherwise affecting the atmosphere by their attitude and that people can’t quite say what it is about their attitude that is bothering them. I have had some students like that. They come in in a bad mood and sort of glare at everybody, not in a threatening way, but enough to make everybody feel uncomfortable around them/make other people feel that the person could become aggressive at a slight provocation, etc. That would be an issue.

      However, it could also be some form of…well, prejudice, for example that this person is neurodivergent and therefore doesn’t make eye contact well or is a bit socially awkward and therefore people are making unfair judgements about them or they are from a different background – from a different ethnicity or culture or more upper-middle-class or more working class – and therefore again people are judging them unfairly or they are more introverted than the rest of your workforce and that is leading to this impression of them.

      I don’t think “bad energy” is really a thing. In my experience, it usually means one of two things – this person is acting coldly polite while still showing hostility towards me and I can’t say they are doing anything wrong but they are clearly letting me know they dislike me or else…well, basically projection. I think you need to figure out which of these it is because they are two very different situations.

      If it is really just people sensing bad energy, then the problem is more with the people sensing the energy than with the person in question (especially if it is something that indicates neurodivergence or a different background or something) whereas if they are being brusque or unfriendly, that may be actionable.

  36. anonymoose*

    How do you deal with feeling threatened by a new hire? I know it’s a self-esteem issue. The person is very nice, but they are sort of trampling all over our effective workflow that has taken years to get right. I hate this feeling. I want to be open to change, but that weirdness is sort of ruining it.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Like, trampling, how?

      My first thought is where is their manager? But if they were hired specifically to shake up workflow, then that’s the opposite problem.

      1. anonymoose*

        Sort of going behind my back and assigning work to my staff without looping me in or realizing what is already in the queue. I agree, if that’s what the manager wants, that’s something we could work out.

      2. anonymoose*

        Their manager is very hands off. So, it’s down to me to sort of steer what I’m working with. I’m trying to keep it generic in the responses.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          Well, that’s most of your problem: This person needs managing and you have a manager who isn’t as interactive as the situation requires.

          Can you loop the manager in (“Just checking: This was assigned to them without my knowledge. Is this what you want or did I miss an email?”) and make in enough of their problem that they have to address it?

    2. Hyaline*

      Is it actually solely a self-esteem issue–as in, this new hire is actually pretty great and their ideas are applicable and would make things better and it’s making you feel self-conscious? Or are they an overconfident newbie who isn’t listening to guidance and explanations of how things work, and the only place self-esteem comes in is the chutzpah to say “Hey, Steve, that’s a cool idea, but we’re not interested in changing the widget assessment process right now.”

      1. anonymoose*

        It’s more a, “person is coming back in a new role after a number of years, but is buddy buddy with their former staff and directly is trying to supervise them even when they aren’t their boss and aren’t in the department” kind of stuff.

    3. saskia*

      After reading all your comments about the situation, my take is, correct this person once or twice directly and have a conversation about your role’s responsibilities. Then if they keep doing this, start notifying bosses (yours and theirs), correct them publicly in CCs, etc. If they’re higher up than you, check in with your own boss (sounds like you two have different bosses?) and figure out the way forward.

    4. Parenthesis Guy*

      Have a discussion with the new hire about boundaries. Tell them they can’t assign work to your staff without talking to you.

      After this, have a conversation with your staff about the new hire. Tell your staff what they can and can’t do for them without talking to you.

      It’s one thing to be open to change. It’s another to let a person just boss your team around.

      1. Angstrom*

        “Trampling all over our workflow” is not how one motivates process change.

        One of the first rules of quality improvement is that a system has to be stable before you can make meaningful changes. So the first step is to get her to follow the existing process. Once she is doing that correctly you can have productive discussions about what’s not working and how to improve it.

        1. anonymoose*

          100%. I have my reasons for not including my staff in certain processes in our workflow (due to the way our organization’s writes it’s job requirements/union issues), so finding out they were added to the part they can’t help with is frustrating. I think the person will learn, though. I plan on communicating what my department can and can’t do.

    5. STEM Admin*

      Just throwing this out there for consideration.

      The senior member of my team has been moved to other duties, but pretty much had (nearly) full control over her prior part of the workflow. We have amazing new hire who is overqualified for the position in many ways, though in an adjacent field. The new hire was mostly trained by the senior member, but is supposed to be taking full ownership of that part of the work (which includes changing whatever suits as long as the work is done correctly at the end of the day).

      Senior staff member is extremely upset and even aggressive about it whenever anything is changed because they are taking it as a personal insult. Any little mistake made by the new hire is blown up out of proportion to showcase how much better senior staff member was at the job (not true in the first couple of years, but easy to forget so far down the road).

      Honestly, it’s exhausting to manage. My senior member is quickly squandering the goodwill built up over many years of doing a great job by being jealous and possessive at this point.

      There is very little in this world that can’t be improved and different ideas might be better or worse, but it’s fair to experiment if individuals are given the leeway to do so. Even tactics that didn’t work 10 years ago may face a different reception now. If the changes are truly impacting the entire team or causing problems down stream, it’s fair to have some discussions on how to address those pain points. Other than that, it may be time for you to let go and focus on other things.

      1. anonymoose*

        I think I’m willing to change, but there isn’t clear direction from the big boss and I think the new hire is sort of floundering. I totally understand that because I was thrown into work without training or SOP. I think the original feeling of feeling threatened was a knee-jerk reaction to their participation in workflow. I’m willing to hear them out, though.

  37. Eugenia*

    I have a couple of questions about dealing with ex-employees.

    – What do you do when someone you used to manage and was a mediocre or low performer reaches out about a position at your new workplace? You’d be managing them directly again.
    (I work in a niche industry so it’s likely my whole ex-team would apply. I’d love to work with one of them but not with the rest.)

    – How do you turn down repeated social invitations by an ex-employee who has trouble understanding boundaries? They already treated me as a friend when I was managing them and had to work hard on boundaries with them. They want to keep in touch. I don’t.

    What would be polite responses?

    1. NaoNao*

      For the second, I think being direct is being kind–for some people, no amount of “hints” works, and if you ignore 10 texts and give a lukewarm answer on 11, that’s the new amount of times it takes for them to get a response. So… “So and So, I do wish you the best, but I don’t want to stay in touch or hang out. Thanks for understanding.”

    2. WellRed*

      For the second one, how are you turning down these invitations? Can you respond slower and slower?

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I’d say just ghost the person and mute any conversations with them (text, email) or set up a rule to send their messages directly to a folder that you don’t look at much. That way you can go back and look at them if you want but you’re not being bombarded by messages from them all the time. And if you should happen to encounter them at some professional event and they bring up the fact that you haven’t responded to them, you can very easily say that you’ve been so busy at the new job and leave it at that.

    3. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Hire the person you want to hire, don’t hire the rest. Don’t get into specifics, just “we had a lot of qualified applicants” or “It wasn’t the right match”

      Address the bigger picture. “I really appreciate that you want to keep in touch but I don’t have the bandwidth for social stuff right now. I’m not going to be able to make plans with you and I don’t know when that will change.” And then stop responding.

    4. Hyaline*

      If someone reaches out about applying, you can assume they are not thinking of themselves as on your “you were a low performer” list. They think that there’s a shot of being hired by you again…which is what makes this awkward. I’m not usually a fan of ghosting, but you don’t really owe this person a response and a non-response speaks volumes here. If you do want to reply, I think your appropriate response can range from giving them the perfunctory details of “here’s the link to apply” that they could have found on Google and hopefully sends the message “I am not making any promises here” to, if there are reasons it’s not a good fit, telling them so (“This position is going to focus on scratching post construction, not the cat grooming I know have have experience in”) to outright giving them feedback on their previous performance–I admit I’d have a hard time doing this but I doubt anyone would keep bugging you after “I’m afraid that on our previous team your work frequently did not meet standards and I would be unable to recommend you for employment here.” But really, you don’t owe them anything and likewise aren’t obligated to prevent their application–you can just give HR or whoever is screening a heads up to nix that applicant.

      As for the unwanted social invites, I’d just keep declining. I don’t think a “talk” about it is necessary here–just say no thanks. Again and again. They’ll get the idea eventually. (What I would NOT do is give excuses or say “I would make it except I have to XYZ” or “I wish I could!” which suggests maybe you really do want to see them–just “No thank you!”)

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, and if they’re really insistent, at some point you can be more direct, like, “I’ve declined 20 invitations from you in the last 6 months. That should tell you that I’m not interested in seeing you socially, now or ever. Thanks for understanding.” After that, feel free to block their number.

  38. Justin*

    THEY FINALLY POSTED THE JOB FOR THE #2 ON MY TEAM! I’m so excited.

    (If you know any people with training/curriculum development experience that want to work for a cool nonprofit etc, let me know. I am sure I can’t actually recruit here though.)

  39. CheesePlease*

    Question re: PTO

    Our PTO is tiered into 3 categories: 0-3 yrs, 3-10yrs, 10+ yrs. The employee policy says that “PTO is allotted at the start of the calendar year based on years of service, to be prorated the first year based on hire date”.

    I was hired in late January 2022, so I technically would still be in the 0-3yr category at the start of the new calendar year when PTO is allotted. Even though I would be in the 3-10yr category only a few weeks later. Is there any point in me asking HR if they would bump me up? We have 2 young kids and they extra days are helpful because we don’t get separate sick days or anything. I don’t want to appear to be asking for special treatment but it’s so annoying that because I didn’t work for 2 weeks for this company back in 2022 I have to wait a whole year before I am eligible for more PTO

    1. Poplar Tree*

      I would clarify the policy for sure. My former company did things the same way as far as the buckets, but you got the additional PTO if you were hitting the mile anniversary in that year.

      1. Annika Hansen*

        I agree to check for details. My place gave you prorated vacation. I started in January but not on January 1. So my 5th year (when we got more vacation), I got 3 weeks and like 38 hours of vacation.

    2. jasmine*

      doesn’t hurt to ask. I’d maybe bring it up with your manager instead of HR if they’re generally reasonable. a direct manager is usually more in your corner than HR

      I wouldn’t bring up kids, just mention the technicality. it’s a pretty reasonable request. worst they can do is say no

      1. Hyaline*

        This–the focus of the ask shouldn’t be “why I can use this extra time/why it’s beneficial to me” but clarifying the policy and, if the policy is no, you don’t jump tiers until your first FULL year, you can investigate if there are any other potentials for negotiating more vacation time (sounds like no given the strict tiers here, but maybe there’s a possibility of forgoing part of your next raise for more PTO or some other possibilities).

    3. Donkey Hotey*

      Yes, definitely ask. My last job has some absolutely Byzantine rules on PTO accrual. (And they wonder why they can’t get anyone to work for them.)

  40. Employee of the Bearimy*

    I’m on the hunt for a new job, and I might have two offers, which is great, but they’re so different! I’m normally very decisive, but I’m stumped. Thoughts?

    Job A is ED of a small nonprofit. I would be their first full-time paid ED; it’s been run by the board so far. I know a couple of the board members and like them a lot. It’s good work and I would be good at it. There would be a lot of building from the ground up expected and establishing them in the local community. It would probably be a small pay cut (about 5%) from my current position.

    Job B is COO of a mid-size nonprofit (a lateral move for me). They’re growing and it’s really exciting work that has the potential to make a statewide impact, plus I would get to work with some of my current colleagues because we’re programmatic partners. But the ED is notoriously eccentric and easily distracted; a big part of my job would just be managing her. I do a lot of that in my current job, but it’s definitely exhausting. They’re willing to match my current salary. There’s a chance I would be built up to take over for the ED when she retires (almost certainly within 5 years), but obviously I couldn’t count on that.

    To sum up: An easier job that’s a step up on paper but a little less money, or a hard but exciting job that’s a lateral move for the same money I make now.

    1. MsM*

      Job A sounds like the better bet to me, personally. I’m not sure how much of the exciting stuff you’ll really get to do if you’re mostly on ED duty, or if you’ll even want the top job in five years if you’ve gotten burned out by then. Whereas if you can get A up and humming the way you seem to think you can, you can make a decent argument for a raise before too long.

    2. jasmine*

      This really depends on what your personal priorities are right now. But one thing I’ll say is that if you’re currently used to managing an ED, you might not realize how much energy it’s taking up until you don’t have to do it anymore.

      Or maybe you do, who knows, but IME sometimes we get so used to something that’s weighing us down that we forget how heavy it is.

      1. Employee of the Bearimy*

        This is an excellent question and one I’ve been weighing over the last week. If I knew for certain that I would be prepped to take over for Job B, then I would say that one. But I don’t know if that’s the case. Being an ED is a big part of my long-term plans, and if I were going to run either organization, I’d pick Job B. But that’s enough of an unknown that I really shouldn’t factor it into my thinking.

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          I wonder if they aren’t necessarily planning for the new COO to take over when the current ED retires and will post the job, in which case you could apply for it then. More of a gamble for sure but then you wouldn’t have to put up with ED-sitting in the interim.

        2. TO person*

          Take job A and move to be ED of job B when the current ED retires! You’ll already have been an ED so very qualified. As a wise HR person said ‘it’s not about employment, it’s about employability’. Having led an organization puts you in a better spot long term. No guarantees you’d get promoted if you took job B and you might just burn out.

          1. Employee of the Bearimy*

            I feel confident that Job B will try to promote internally at that point, so if I’m not in that spot it’ll be someone else. But that would be OK – I don’t need to stay in that specific field.

    4. Workerbee*

      Is that pay cut more probable, or more definite? Any benefits or perks to make up some of the difference?

      Regardless, if you can handle that cut, Job A sounds much better.

      Having to manage Job B’s willful child of an ED sounds exhausting.

    6. Dumplings. Mmmmmm.*

      Hmmm. Job A doesn’t sound “easier” to me. Their first full time director? Fun, probably, but also stressful and subject to whims of different directors on the Board. Often a board is unified during the candidate search but can splinter later. But then you already know that. Good luck! Sounds like an embarrassment of riches!

      1. Employee of the Bearimy*

        Yes, I think of it as more straightforward in terms of what success looks like, but definitely not “easy.”

    7. Miracle*

      I did Job A and it was a great experience for me. Very board and stakeholder dependent.
      It worked well for me lifestyle-wise, a few years in, I had babies and it was pretty flexible, especially once everyone trusted me. I did run out of steam after 6 years. The organization couldn’t grow any more.
      I ended up taking more a a Job B for a short period and then moved over to an ED position at a medium-large size nonprofit.

  41. The Unionizer Bunny*

    I spend a lot of time researching public policy (mostly laws), and chasing down why everything works that way so I can anticipate how the regulatory agencies may rule. There are avenues for pursuing change but actions have to stay within the law (which delegates unreserved and unprohibited decision-making to employers) as it still holds. I’ve noticed my mind has this weird compartmentalization thing going on where I can make perfect sense of the system legally, and then have a separate thread in my mind shrieking “This makes no sense! It’s absolutely counter-intuitive!”

    I find other employees are often surprised by the implications of laws they already knew or had heard of (but never spent much time looking at the application of), and I’m wondering how much more I should focus on educational outreach; these matters feel intuitive to me but, then, I’ve been training precisely that for many years. I don’t think I can outsource this or estimate based on anything but experience; the question I bring to AAM today is “How do you respond when you encounter a workplace law that is contradicted by everything you’ve understood?”

    There might be laws that are easier to accept than others (you just go “Huh”, shrug, change your mind, and move on), I’m angling more for “laws you’ve heard of, and you still think it’s nonviable or outrageous, but you’re aware it is the law, though you might act as if it isn’t because nobody can reasonably to expected to actually follow it”.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      As someone who has to deal with rules and regulations, I love additional outreach! One thing some of our internal people do is have webinars open to all internal staff that deal with specific issues. And the person in charge of one of the “important but confusing” areas of our state statutes has (virtual) drop-in hours once a month for people who are their officer’s SMEs to come with any questions. It’s been extremely helpful.

  42. Which Sister*

    For Valentine’s Day, my boyfriend bought us passports. We want to travel, we both had long-expired passports. He is such a practical romantic.

    2 months later, I was laid off. But a lot of the jobs I apply for require some travel, and also have international sites.

    I mention in interviews, when travel comes up, I am willing and able to travel and have a valid passport.

    Would it be beneficial to have this noted in my resume? I go back and forth. Its easy to bring up in an interview, and I hate to add MORE to a resume. On the other hand…

    1. jasmine*

      I wouldn’t bring it up. If travel is a job requirement, it’s assumed that you’ll have access to a valid passport when needed.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Don’t mention it. Having a passport is not something that will make you especially stand out, particularly if you’re applying for jobs that require travel or seem like they might. The interview is fine, though I would limit it to saying that you’re willing and available to travel if they ask you/it comes up.

    3. Hyaline*

      In most countries having a passport is either pretty standard or pretty easy to get if you need it. It’s not worth bringing it up in your resume or even in interviews unless asked directly. Mentioning a willingness to travel is fine, but I’d honestly find “I have a passport!” kind of a weird thing to emphasize–like maybe the person thought that was impressive/unique and it really wasn’t? Focus on emphasizing what is uniquely qualifying about you, not a document anyone can get.

    4. Cordelia*

      You can say you’re happy to travel in the interview, but mentioning that you have a passport sounds odd, almost like saying you have a suitcase. If you are applying to a job that requires travel you will be expected to have, or be able to get, a passport and a suitcase. Having one now doesn’t make you a better candidate. It’s not something to put on your resume.

      1. Kay*

        This is where I land as well OP. I find it strange it encounter someone without a passport, so it would sound extremely… basic… if someone were to have it on their resume they had a passport. Almost like noting they spoke English, in an English speaking country on an English speaking resume.

    5. Yell Ow*

      There’s no need to mention thepassport at all. It’s assumed if you’re willing to travel that you have one. It seems rather naive to mention it as if it’s something unusual. You’ll seem more experienced and professional if you don’t mention it.

    6. Heh*

      Oh my gosh, I just have to say I laughed out loud with delight at your user name. But really, shouldn’t it be “Whoa, whoa, whoa– which sister?” :-)

    7. Chelsea Rocks*

      Do you live in a country where it’s unusual to have a passport? I assume you don’t live in the US because having a passport is such a basic thing that it would come off as extremely odd to include in your resume or even to bring up in conversation.

      1. Nightengale*

        I suspect how common and “basic” passport having seems in the US depends a lot on a bunch of socioeconomic factors.

        I don’t have a passport. I went to Canada twice as a kid and then got a passport and went to Europe when I was 18. Sometime after that, I lost the passport. I was 18 thirty years ago and have no plans to travel outside the US again so I have never bothered to get another one. I am not in a job where international travel is likely. State Department site tells me 48% of US citizens have a passport which is the highest percentage ever in history.

  43. doodle.bop*

    What are some consequences that can be applied for people not doing work they’re supposed to that aren’t overly punitive or seem infantilizing?

    I’m not a manager, but am struggling with getting people to comply with doing assigned duties in an area I’m primarily responsible for. I’m working with my colleagues to streamline processes and makes things as easy as possible, but sometimes it kinda comes down to telling people to just do their jobs. I’ve spoken to their managers repeatedly and they say that they’ve spoken to their direct reports about the compliance issue, but nothing changes. When I go back, the managers say all they can do is talk to them again.

    In other positions there were obvious solutions like retraining in order to work in certain areas or missing out on promotions, but management around here will still promote non-compliant employees. I know this is ultimately on the managers to solve, but we’re moving into more regulated work (like federally regulated) and our collective behinds will be on the line very soon.

    1. dulcinea47*

      You shouldn’t be doling out punishments, that’s just not a thing that should be happening at work. Do the managers have the ability to write someone up/put on PIP/fire them? Those are the kinds of consequences that need to happen, but it sounds like either they can’t or aren’t doing that.

    2. WellRed*

      Have you given the managers support or tools to do their jobs? It also sounds like maybe some people shouldn’t be in management but were promoted there? That’s a big problem.

    3. I Love the Olympics*

      Who has the most to lose when all your behinds are on the line? Talk to that person. Because, yikes, managers can do more than talk! Also, I’m sure you are documenting when you’ve talked to the managers and what they’ve said (email chains). Very frustrating, for sure.

    4. Florence and the Puppy*

      Consequences should be a conversation with their manager, a clear instruction on what to do, a warning that failure will result in being fired, and firing if required.

      Since you can’t do any of that, your hands are tied. You cannot impose any consequences on the non-compliant employees. Keep making it the managers problem, push them to do more, document their failure to do so, and inform your management of the issue.

  44. Job breakups*

    I miss my old job :( I hit my month mark at my current job and it feels like I’m missing an ex, which is wild.

    It’s extra hard because my old job was part of my identity. I worked in mental health and it felt so fulfilling, I felt like I was good at something *and* doing something good. But it was so, so exhausting and draining, and after a client died, I knew I couldn’t do this long term. It also didn’t pay well. I decided I’d take a break from it and try a different path, and eventually will work in mental health on the side.

    So I started this new job, where I don’t have to work with clients, still doing something relatively helpful for the community, but much less interesting. It pays much better and work life balance is better. I don’t take my work home with me mentally.

    But my team is not very progressive, they don’t really acknowledge mental health or social justice, and it’s not as culturally diverse as my last workplace. I’m also the only childless person there. However, they are all polite and nice and if I ask for help, they are helpful. I feel like I can’t be myself as much in this workplace, so I’m more quiet, which has made it harder to click with anyone.

    I realize I had a unicorn workplace previously where I worked primarily with women, people of color, and LGBTQ coworkers, where we felt valued and respected (except for our pay) and had a lot of open discussions about mental health because it was part of our work. I really enjoyed being with my coworkers and felt relatively quick connection.

    I’ve been staying connected to my old coworkers and boss (we were a remote team) but it just makes me miss them more. And as much as I miss them, I know I don’t want to work for them, because they don’t have any positions that aren’t client facing that I could do. And the pay was too low for the high workload.

    So now I just feel…stuck in some kind of limbo. I don’t feel like I’m trying to find much good in my new job because I’m stuck missing my old job and comparing. I don’t feel interesting without my old job. I’d like to have more things to do outside my work, like hobbies, and now I actually have time for that, but I don’t have motivation to do it yet. I admire friends who are like “work is work” but spending 40 hours per week doing something, I am more motivated by feeling connected to my work.

    Has anyone been in a similar situation? Does it get better?

    1. Dusty Rose*

      I also just started a new job. You’re not alone. It can feel isolating at first, even when people are being responsive. I’m feeling disoriented and disconnected, which doesn’t feel great, even if it’s no one’s fault. It’s just the nature of being new. Anyway, just wanted to share that I hear you, understand, and hope others have tips and insights that will help ease the pain!

    2. MsM*

      Is volunteering an option? It’s both a good way to meet people who you know share that interest and to feel like you’re still doing good.

    3. Susan Sto Helit*

      It’s so, so normal. Starting a new job takes a huge amount of energy, mentally, and you’ve only been there a month. Give yourself some grace – you are handling a major change and you deserve to take your time, rest, and take care of your own mental health. It takes time to build connections, to click with people and find your groove, and to get the routine and systems in place that will reduce the load. I’d say three to six months, typically, though depending on the role it could be longer.

      In a few months, you’ll probably find you have that time, space and energy for those hobbies/volunteering etc that you want to bring into your life. Right now, those resources are going to grieving the job you left, and adjusting to the new role/workplace, and that’s OK. Be kind to yourself. This too shall pass.

    4. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I agree with the volunteering suggestion, or finding a hobby group – you need a social outlet, since your job is no longer providing that sense of connection and support.

      1. Charley*

        I’ve absolutely been in this situation! Left front line social services for a non-profit office job and everything just felt really meaningless and arbitrary. I wish I could say it got better, but actually what happened is a spent a year and a half in New Job, and used the extra time and money I had from that to enroll in grad school and try for a new field.

    5. Double A*

      Since you compared this to missing an ex, can you compare this to dating a nice, stable person who is not the love of your life but is going to be good for you in this phase of life? (It not an exact analogy because you can stay single after a break up but you kind of need a job. But still!)

    6. SansaStark*

      This is SO normal. I left a job I liked with a boss I adored for a much better position (more *everything*) and it still took me about a year before I felt settled in and stopped pining for my ex-job. I’m about 3 years in and really love the new job, but I still think fondly of ex-job. But then I remember the annoying things like how they don’t promote, pay fairly, resource departments appropriately, etc. and it helps me not think back with rose-colored glasses.

      Give it some time. Maybe the connection will come (maybe it won’t), but it usually takes some time to develop.

    7. goddessoftransitory*

      This sounds like the definition of “Comparison is the thief of joy.”

      As long as you see yourself as “no longer at Job X,” you won’t be able to fully embrace Jobs Y, Z, or the rest of the alphabet. That’s not to say that your current job is perfect and you “just don’t see it” or anything, but just because your coworkers aren’t as openly progressive as at your last place of employment doesn’t mean they aren’t at all, or don’t have opinions or interests you might share, for example.

      I would recommend going “cold turkey” on your last job–don’t ghost them without a word, of course, but stop following that path mentally–it’s getting you lost on the path you’re actually on. Even if you end up leaving your current job, you won’t be happy at any others as long as they’re being framed as “Not This Job.”

  45. Garbanzo*

    How important are regular check-ins? My company is completely remote. I have two direct reports. I try to have regular check-ins over Zoom (weekly for a newer employee, less frequently for someone who has been there longer). I would love for them to be more proactive in the meetings and bring up any issues they’ve been having, but that hasn’t happened. I always prepare a couple of things to mention (feedback, company changes, workflow/volume), but I don’t want to just drone at them. Questions are usually answered “I don’t know” or “Tell me what you’d like, and I’ll do it.” Our work has some fairly strict client requirements we have to follow, but otherwise they work fairly independently.

    Should I stop torturing them with check-ins (5 to 30 minutes in length, depending on what there is to cover)? I am socially awkward (autistic), so maybe I’m just reading too much into it. I just want to be a good manager.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Ask them to create the agenda. I suggest that they include accomplishments since last time, anything coming up you might need to know about, and any questions or concerns they might have. If this is a more entry-level type job, they might not have much to say. How about asking about any training the might want, or career goals?

    2. Filosofickle*

      They’re super important to me, as an employee (and especially as a remote one). Every 1 to 2 weeks, depending. The tool that’s been most helpful to me is a shared doc, a Google Doc or Sharepoint doc, where on a running basis we add a new section for each call and drop in relevant topics/questions as they come up through the week. That doc then functions as an agenda for the call. I was told by Boss that it was my responsibility to take point managing that document and ensure I was arriving at the meetings prepared with my topics — project updates were at the top of the list, but also questions, things I need help on, and admin things like upcoming PTO. Boss also added things to the list, but less so.

    3. Garden Pidgeons*

      I think it’s valuable to have regular check-ins even if not every instance is valuable – you don’t want to be in a position where your team do have feedback or concerns but no good forum for getting it to you. As a manager I held them weekly with each report, even though some of my reports tended to be uncommunicative and they weren’t a great use of time.

      There’s a lot of advice out there on how to hold these – searching “holding great 1-1s” will turn some up.

      I also had my manager dial in to some 1-1s, or hold occasional skip-level chats – that gave them a chance to coach me on my approach or give thoughts on how to engage people, and they’re a good thing in general to give them more insight into how the whole organisation is doing.

    4. Keep it Simple*

      Put an agenda document in the meeting invite that’s accessible by everyone to add things to it. My manager does this and it is GREAT. If someone has an idea or a question, you can just pop it into the agenda at moment while you’re thinking about it. It is an enormous help to have a list of stuff all ready to go when the meeting starts, and heads off those vague “I don’t know” answers.

    5. Pachinko*

      Broadly speaking, as an employee and not a manager, I think that regular check ins are important. In my current role, I check in with my manager once a month – to keep on their radar, and to make sure that they aren’t surprised by any issues. (When I first started they met with me every 2 weeks.) How can my manager advocate for me for raises etc, if they don’t know what I am doing?

      Do you already have a ticketing system or group meetings so that you already know what they are working on and achieving?

      I would get your employees to create the agenda:
      1) share their main achievements since you last talked
      2) share what they will be working on in the next time period
      And you can discuss priorities with them, and check in about their work load.

      3) maybe quarterly take a look at their work plan for the year, and see how they are doing

      That kind of thing. But you can put the responsibility of the agenda on them – what info do you need to manage them properly?

    6. Awkwardness*

      My boss is hardly available and the 1:1 one of the few possibilities to get direct answers. We have them weekly for 1h, and this is absolutely necessary, as I just manage to get through with my agenda points/ questions most of the time.
      My boss will let me speak first to have my problems/questions answered for which his input is required. Then I will give progress for the most important topics at the moment (because it is important for check-in with his own boss or because my capacity was spent diffently than previously agreed and I want to inform him about reasons). He will only go first if he has urgent topics or some conflict/problem needs to be addressed and we cannot run out of time before this is covered.

      Having said this, I do wonder why your reports answer anything with “I don’t know”. You probably require updates on long-term goals/projects, even if they have no agenda points of their own?

    7. allathian*

      Seconding what others are saying. Regular check-ins are important, if only to normalize giving and rceiving feedback annd talking with the boss. You don’t want your employees to think that they’ll be put on a PIP or fired when you schedule a meeting with them.

    8. Meh*

      Sounds like they are consciously disengaged. Are you a new manager to them ? Have you been managing a while and just instituted 1:1s ?
      Have you had other challenges with managing them ? How is their work/responsiveness ?

      I’m wondering if they aren’t comfortable with you (worried you won’t listen/act on information they provide, answer their questions, etc), or if they had bad experiences in the past.

      I say that because I have similar responses in my 1:1s with my manager. He instituted – or likely was told to institute the meetings 3 years after becoming my manager. Ironically, I had suggested the idea to him a year+ previously and at the time he didn’t want to implement them. So starting as a newish hire with less than a year, I essentially fended for myself. Doesn’t help that manager has a track record of being condescending, dismissive and overall unhelpful. So, despite being a high performer who cares about my dept and the work, I find the meetings stressful and uncomfortable.

  46. Dovasary Balitang*

    Random thought I keep imagining:

    Structurally, what is it actually like for a company whose lotto pool wins big? Like, if you were a manager and suddenly all your employees (or at least a good chunk) were a million dollars richer, would you be sweating? What if an employer went off their rocker and tried to declare a lawsuit against their employees or something equally dumb? idk, the logistics and fallout of this fascinate me from an operational standpoint.

    (I live in a country where the taxed portion of lottery winnings isn’t a gamechanger, so that might be colouring my perception of this thought experiment.)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There have been a couple of examples of this in the US in the last 30 years. A small company where the majority of the total employees, or those in one department, win a jackpot in the hundreds of millions, and resign en masse.

      What happens depends to a large degree on the nature of the work, and whether those employees were generally happy or not. If I was on good terms with my employer, but won life-changing money, I might be inclined to be generous with my time and help them hire my replacement. But if I hated the job, or was treated poorly, I’d just mentally toss a stick of dynamite over my shoulder as I walked out the door.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Lottery syndicates are banned in a lot of workplaces for exactly this “concentration of risk” reason. If they all left it could be an extinction-level event for a company if there were a lot of key people dependencies. I think if they won an amount of money that wasn’t really enough to retire and travel the world, but was a decent chunk… you would suddenly find people aren’t so willing to “put up and shut up” with whatever goes on in the workplace. In turn you will find people are willing to take more risks in putting ideas forward and being assertive (because now they have a fall back fund if they are fired or whatever).

    3. GythaOgden*

      There’s a thread on this somewhere in the archives. I don’t have a link so you’ll have to perform some keyword skeet shooting, but it sounded like a retelling of the Prodigal Son in a more cynical manner — involving broke former employees trying to come back to an organisation they’d screwed over by leaving en masse and the response of a former peer who didn’t gamble and thus hadn’t been in the syndicate.

      Having laid it out like that it does sound like it was a retelling of the famous parable — but I don’t think the company’s response or Alison’s advice involved fatted calves for dinner…

  47. Dusty Rose*

    Hello commentariat! I’m not sure I have a problem, which for my anxiety… is a problem. I started a new job a few weeks ago. It’s in a different field, though I have a lot of experience with the responsibilities required. But, that said, it was a big departure from my last job, where I worked for a long time. I’m still getting my feet wet and learning about how everything and everyone works.

    There was a wobble on my first assignment. It was easily fixed, but not great that it was left out from an internal perspective. My boss sent me a note to outline that these kinds of things are my responsibility to catch. It was a little critical, which did not feel great as I’ve been there less than a month. After the email, we talked and they made sure to clarify they understood I was new and this was complicated, and that it wasn’t meant to be a criticism more of a clarification. Which I appreciate. If I don’t know someone is concerned about an issue, I can’t resolve the issue.

    But I’m having trouble letting go of my anxiety. I’m hoping that this was just a moment that I can use to adjust and perfect my work at the new job. But, a significant part of me is concerned that this is a hint at things to come. And that I should prepare myself.

    1. Rainy*

      You’re a few weeks in and you made a mistake. That’s normal. You’re still figuring out how things work.

      I don’t actually think the problem you think you’re having. It seems like you think this is a work problem, but I think this is actually an anxiety problem. Are you working with a professional about your anxiety?

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        One thing I tell people I train is that they will make mistakes. It’s impossible not to. And when it happens, we point it out specifically so they don’t get bad habits ingrained–those are so much harder to correct.

        So, OP, your anxiety wants to gnaw on this as a “I blew it” issue, but it’s not. It’s a “perfectly normal and now that I know, I don’t have to worry about it in the future” one!

    2. Workerbee*

      One easily fixed mistake on a first assignment after just a few weeks in? Be assured: Everybody does those!

      Your manager is there to help you succeed – or they wouldn’t have said anything all.

      What struck me most was this paragraph – especially the last line: “My boss sent me a note to outline that these kinds of things are my responsibility to catch. It was a little critical, which did not feel great as I’ve been there less than a month. After the email, we talked and they made sure to clarify they understood I was new and this was complicated, and that it wasn’t meant to be a criticism more of a clarification. Which I appreciate. If I don’t know someone is concerned about an issue, I can’t resolve the issue.”

      Tone is hard to read on email, especially when you really don’t know the people you’re working with all that well yet. So what I’m wondering about is that you only said “If I don’t know someone is concerned about an issue, I can’t resolve the issue” after they reassured you that their email wasn’t critical. Even if it had been critical, that email still expressed concern and how to resolve it.

      Anyway – take the reassurance that was offered to you as true; make your own notes & outlines, paste or stick them up in front of you if you want, and try to give yourself a break. You just got there! You’ll be fine.

    3. Dusty Rose*

      Thanks everyone! I do have a therapist and always working on my … anxiety. She’s on vacation for the next two weeks (natch) It’s a life-long quest for success. But I appreciate everyone’s insight that this is a “me” problem and not necessarily a work problem. And I will keep reminding myself of that.

      1. Rainy*

        I think everything like that is a lifelong quest for success. :) I’m glad you have a therapist and I’m sure when she gets back you will have a really productive session about all this. In the meantime, what is it that she tells you to do when you feel your anxiety increasing? Try to channel her until she gets back.

        I think you are being too hard on yourself, but that’s anxiety for you. Just keep trying to do your job and be open to feedback (but don’t dwell!), and remind anxiety that passengers have to stay behind the white line. *You* are the one driving this bus. :)

  48. handfulofbees*

    just got a rejection for a job I applied to…in January. what is up with this sort of thing? it makes it a lot harder to plan ahead if there are irons that remain in the fire for absurd amounts of time.

    1. Rainy*

      What sort of planning ahead does just applying to a job require, regardless of how long the process drags on?

      1. handfulofbees*

        I think mostly if I want to relocate or not – say I do relocate and then somehow get interviewed and accepted to a job that’s not where I am anymore.

        Also want to check into gender affirming surgery, so it’d be super fun to suddenly have to work around that re: interviews or start dates or any such thing.

        Maybe I’m overthinking it.

        1. Rainy*

          I think you are overthinking it. You can’t know when you apply what’s going to happen, but you definitely know what won’t happen if you don’t apply.

        2. shrambo*

          Yeah, you’re overthinking it. As Alison has said, you should hit submit, then assume you’re not getting the job and put it out of your mind.

    2. Bast*

      I’ve had absurdly long periods before I received a rejection too, and it was typically from government jobs. In general, if I do not hear back within 2-3 weeks I assume that they are not interested and move on, unless they present me with a different timeline.

    3. PotatoRock*

      Sometimes they hired someone months ago, and it’s a “oops no one clicked the ‘close the position’ button that sends out the rejections

      2. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

        So much this. Where I work they often clear out all “open” positions in the portal at the end of fiscal years and re-budget them in the new year with a “new” posting. This often means closing out the dangling jobs that were sitting there with no action.

    4. Bitte Meddler*

      As graduation from grad school was nearing, I had applied to a dozen or so positions. I can’t remember if the ones who didn’t interview me ever sent a rejection email, but I know it’s not the norm so I only cared about the companies who offered up interviews. I started at one of those companies within a couple of months of starting the job search process.

      NINE MONTHS LATER one of the other companies sent me an email saying that they’d reviewed my application and resume for Job X and would like to invite me in for an interview.

      I wrote back and let them know that my window for availability had long since passed.

      I’m trying to imagine a situation where this kind of lag would be normal and a job candidate would be like, “Yes! I can’t wait to interview with you!”

      1. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

        My first real post college job – My boss loved to tell this story – It was mortifying.

        This was with a large Fortune 500 company. Back in the day they would recruit heavily at colleges and a certain % of job postings would be classified to only hire straight out of college. You didn’t apply for specific jobs, you would apply for the company and they would interview you on campus for categories of jobs and create a file.

        So my boss gets a posting approved in March and sends down to HR for the top 20% of candidates and starts contacting them – all of them had jobs
        Then the next 20% – all of them had jobs

        At this point I’m starting to get the side eye from all my new coworkers wondering just how far down the pile I was. (and the first time he told this story, I was wondering that myself!)

        After the 3rd round of all of them having jobs, he went back to HR and they all realized they had been sending him the prior year candidates. People who would have done first round interviews over a year ago and have graduated 10 months ago.

    5. Qwerty*

      I received a rejection from Dell’s internship program 4yrs later, by which point I had graduated college and they were also actively trying to recruit me for a full time position. It just means they finally got around to cleaning up their applicant queue. Rejections aren’t really a high priority if someone didn’t get an interview

  49. chocolate muffins*

    Small joys at work thread! I found out that a conference symposium I submitted was accepted, so I will get to travel to a place I’ve never been before and spend time with some of my favorite colleagues. What made you happy this week?

    1. H.Regalis*

      I had a meeting with a senior developer who has probably five times as much experience as I do in our field, and he told me my code looked good and that it didn’t look like I needed a lot of help with what we were meeting about.

    3. A Girl Named Fred*

      I’m covering some tasks for a coworker who’s on vacation for the next two weeks, and today one of those tasks involved making – and signing – a lot of certificates. I may or may not have pretended to be a famous author signing my bookplates while I finished the stack, which put a huge smile on my face!

  50. wooricat*

    How do you handle being stuck in the middle of two coworkers who refuse to talk to each other?

    I’m on the same team as Mary and Jessica. Mary HATES Jessica—I won’t get into the full backstory, but it mostly boils down to Mary feeling like she can do a better job than Jessica, and resenting that Jessica is in a higher position.

    Mary has been very passive-aggressive towards Jessica since Jessica was hired ten months ago, and for the last few months, has been refusing to speak to Jessica at all. She skips our team meetings, so she doesn’t have to be in the same room as Jessica. If she needs to give something to Jessica, she hands it off to someone else on our team to deliver.

    I feel stuck in the middle because any time Mary has an issue with Jessica’s work, she comes to me to complain. I’m not Jessica’s manager, but I was responsible for most of Jessica’s training. Our actual manager, Rachel, has made it very clear that Mary shouldn’t be “reporting” her issues with Jessica to me, but Mary persists and has been getting aggressive towards me when I tell her that she needs to talk to Jessica herself, or else go to Rachel.

    Rachel moved my desk to right outside her own office to get me away from Mary, because these complaints were happening multiple times per day, every day. Now Mary just texts me or waits until Rachel is not in her office.

    Jessica is now fully aware that Mary hates her, and no longer wants to speak to Mary either. There are situations when she needs to give Mary feedback, and recently has asked me to deliver all feedback to Mary on her behalf. She thinks Mary will take this feedback better coming from me. This is not a road I want to go down.

    I’m at a loss of how to move forward from here. I’ve continually told both Mary and Jessica that they need to communicate with each other directly, and if they can’t do that, they need to take it up with Rachel. Every time I mention my concern to Rachel, she tells me it’s not my job to mediate. Which I understand, but Rachel has not done much to mediate this herself. Is there anything I can do?

    1. Rainy*

      Stop responding to Mary about anything that involves Jessica. Tell Jessica that if she insists on conveying feedback to Mary through an intermediary it has to be Rachel.

      Schedule a meeting with Rachel and detail for her exactly how Mary’s behaviour is impacting your work and then say “You have told me in the past that it’s not my job to mediate, and I agree! I would love to stop being put in the middle of this, but I’ve tried shutting it down myself and it doesn’t work. What are next steps for protecting my time and energy for my work and not Mary’s vendetta against Jessica?”

      1. MsM*

        I agree with trying Rachel one more time. But I’d be firmer that they clearly see you as the authority figure in this conflict, and that’s a problem both for your ability to do your work and because it’s an end-run around her role as manager, so either she needs to give you the power to enforce consequences if this doesn’t stop or lay down the law herself. And if that doesn’t work, I think it’s time to go to HR/whoever the next level of authority is and ask them to sort this mess out.

    2. Alex*

      Sounds like you can’t do much beyond what you are doing. This is Rachel’s problem and she is dropping the ball.

      I’m curious–when you say to either Mary or Jessica that they need to speak with one another rather than going through you, do they actually do that? How do they move forward when you refuse to participate?

      1. wooricat*

        They don’t. Sometimes they go to Rachel (then why come to me first?) or they just drop the issue.

        1. Rainy*

          Their problem is not yours to solve, fortunately. The only thing you really need to do is actively shove this off on other people. Who? Who cares! Either Rachel will fix this or she won’t but in the meantime, I just wouldn’t engage with it. Be a broken record about it. Eventually they’ll either grow up or Rachel will actually do her job, but either way it’s not your deal.

    3. WellRed*

      Tell them both at the same time they are making your job difficult and dreadful and to QUIT putting you in the middle and do they think they can do that? Alternatively, close your eyes, put your hands over your ears and say “lalakakalalalakala!..,,,,,,,,,” until they fk off.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I would have a real pointed talk with Rachel, personally. “Here is what Mary is doing. Here is what Jessica is doing. None of this is feasible for me to deal with, which you have acknowledged and they have both ignored. I need you to do something to ensure that these two stop dropping this junk on my lap.”

    5. Ashley*

      Can you block Mary’s texts or silence them and just tell her you aren’t going to read them? You risk missing a business text but it is at least a step. You have a manager who won’t manage so you really have to say not my circus over and over again.

  51. Rainy*

    It was a bit of a nail-biting week with some serious negotiation with my new boss about start dates, but I have signed the offer letter! I won’t be able to give notice until next week due to a bunch of weird stuff that’s happening that I can’t be specific about due to revealing details, but I expect we’ll be able to resolve everything to my satisfaction.

    Now to pack up my entire house and figure out how we get ourselves across the country. Thank the gods for relocation packages! This would be impossible in the time without my new employer’s generosity.

      1. Rainy*

        Thank you! We are excited–Mr Rainy gave notice yesterday and there are two jobs at my new employer that he’s well-qualified for. Since it’s a smaller town, they are very supportive of solutions for two-body problems. :)

  52. call me wheels*

    So. In a bit of a situation. Basically getting a job has become more urgent than I thought it was going to be. There’s a part time freelance thing I would really like to do, but their assessment process to see if they want me has dragged on for over 2 months so far, and will do for at least another 2 weeks. If I got it, the money would be enough I could get by fine and then I’d be in good stead once I got a part time job to fill the rest of the week. Also, it’s kind of a dream opportunity for me in a lot of ways in a dream industry, but it’s just still nowhere near certain I even could get the work.

    On the 14th I have an interview for a full time position I feel may be a good fit for me. The work itself isn’t my passion but it is my skillset, and it’s for a company whose product to do with something very important to me. I think it’s very likely I’ll hear if I got this job or not before the freelance thing gets back to me. If I got the job, I’m not in a position to turn it down, and it seems like a decent place to work. It’s just frustrating to think I could be missing out on work that would be really cool and get me started in my dream industry because they are taking a long time and I’ve ended up more desperate than planned -_- I know no opportunity is ever the last, but it’s easy to feel like it will be!

    Not really sure what advice I’m asking for specifically, but any encouragement is appreciated !

    1. Alex*

      Since it is freelance, do you really need to turn it down regardless? Lots of people both freelance and work full time. Especially if money has been tight for you, which it sounds like it has.

      1. call me wheels*

        I have some health conditions that, although way better at the moment, mean my ability to work just a normal fulltime job is honestly a bit questionable still, so I’m concerned about trying to take on too much at once and crashing my health again :/ BUT the freelance people did mention several of their other people have full time jobs and they could potentially give me like a very small amount of work a week even if I did get a fulltime thing, so that I can get a foot in the door for the industry, so if I end up getting the job maybe that is what I will attempt. I’m probably getting a bit ahead of myself anyway considering I didn’t even have the interview yet, it’s just a lot to think about!

        1. MoonlightingProject*

          Be aware that many employers restrict outside work and you’d also need to really understand their IP policies so they don’t try to claim ownership over things you do for someone else (there are many companies that default to we own everything you do 24/7).

          Good luck!

    2. ferrina*

      Ah, career FOMO.
      I’ve missed plenty of opportunities because I was pinning my hopes on better opportunities which never materialized.

      Don’t focus on what could be- focus on what is. Sometimes it helps to run down Worst Case Scenarios. Worst Case- if you take the full-time job then are offered the freelance job, what will you do? What if you decline the full-time job, then the freelance job never materializes (or they use you for one minor thing, then never again)? It’s okay to make decisions based on how strong the safety net is.

      1. call me wheels*

        Yeahhhh see the freelance thing has been a little flakey in the assessment process anyway, so it really isn’t the most definitive thing. Thank you yeah it is helpful to think things through. It feels bad not to be like ‘no im going to hold out for the chance to follow my dreams!!’ but losing me and my partner’s flat sure would feel worse :’) but I’m sure things will work out

        1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

          This may be off-the-wall, but you mentioned health concerns with working full time in an earlier response. Consider spending some time now figuring out what physical or mental accommodations will allow you to better prepared to work a full time position. (e.g. daily meditation, yoga, long walks, help around the house, joining a gym, scheduling weekly date nights, planning silent time in your home)

  53. Mike*

    I have worked for my company for many years (admin), when I first started the dress code was corporate, for male members like myself, a suit wasn’t required but wearing a collared shirt and a tie was the norm. Over the years I’ve worked there, the dress has gradually become more casual and relaxed, if I’m honest, I would say too casual! We are not public facing though clients from other companies do visit our office so I do feel that the way staff dress should not be too casual!

    Although the way staff are now dressing is a lot more casual, the written dress code has never actually been changed and it does still exist exactly as it originally was. A new manager has recently taken over and she is young bright, enthusiastic and has got on well so far. Like all of the new managers I’ve had, she does want to make a few changes to our working practices. One change she wants to make is for everyone to start adhering to the dress code as it is written. She has said she will allow a full month before enforcing this, though after that, if any individual is seen not adhering to the dress code, they will be spoken to and disciplined in line with company policy.

    Although I prefer to dress more in a business casual way, I don’t really have an issue with complying with her request as she is not trying to change the actual dress code but just making sure everyone starts adhering to the already written dress code. This has however, brought about some mixed reaction with other staff as this seems to be only being enforced by our manager on our department and not with other departments.

    I think that does seem a little unfair, so I am just wondering if a manager does actually have the right to enforce this on their own department whilst it is not happening in any other departments. It also seems a bit harsh when she says that members of staff will be formally disciplined if they are seen not complying. Please Let me know if you have any thoughts on this.

    1. Alex*

      I’m not a fan of strict dress codes for non-public or non-client facing roles. This isn’t really a way to win points with your reports as a new manager.

      It’s one thing to ask people to not be sloppy, like ripped clothes or sweatpants, but ties? Not really in line with modern norms for most places.

    2. WellRed*

      Managers can enforce their teams doing something others don’t have to but risk having an unhappy team looking to jump first chance they get. I think this bright young thing is going to be wildly unpopular and ineffective. I also think disciplinary action is wrong here. I don’t understand why she didn’t, instead, say, hey let’s update the dress code rather than enforce an out of date one.

      2. A Significant Tree*

        It really does seem like the wrong place to focus – are there really no more pressing matters than someone not wearing a tie? It also seems like the wrong approach – resurrecting an outdated dress code and threatening to impose consequences if not followed. If the dress code is potentially decades old, it might be more difficult/costly for one gender compared to another, much less allow for a wider/more inclusive range of “acceptable” outfits. So, bad place to expend energy and all the potential to decrease morale for essentially zero gain.

    3. Antilles*

      The other managers absolutely have the right to ignore dictates from peers. If it’s been this way for years, that IS the rule. And I’ll be honest, if I was a manager of another department, I’d 100% be ignoring her crusade too. She can make a big deal out of ties if she wants, but we’ve operated just fine in jeans and polos and we’re going to stick with that. If it feels unfair to people in her group, well maybe she should realize that she’s the one who’s out of step with company culture here and adjust.
      This feels like a terrible thing for her to fixate on though. If she tries to actually impose discipline on one of her employees, the very first thing that her employee is going to do is point out that nobody else is following the dress code either. What happens then? If HR or upper management decide to suddenly start enforcing the strict dress code on everybody, she’ll get mass resentment for ruining things. If not, then her group will resent her for arbitrarily enforcing a standard (backed by disciplinary actions!) that nobody else has or cares about.

    4. Apex Mountain*

      You say she’s been doing well so far so this might just be a weird one-off, but this would make me question her judgement. Not about the dress code specifically, but more that as a new manager this is really where she’s spending time and energy?

    5. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      She can do it, but I doubt it will go over well. This is a stupid battle for her to choose.

    6. Garden Pidgeons*

      I remember being a new manager and following the rules pretty closely – not because I necessarily thought the rules were right or sensible, but because there was clear written policy in these areas and I wasn’t yet comfortable ignoring them/guiding my team to ignore them. I got better, over time, at understanding the unwritten rules and knowing which written rules I could safely ignore.

      (I don’t know to what extent the ‘new manager’ is new to managing versus just new to you, so this may or may not apply.)

      It might be helpful to flag this to your manager – especially as you personally aren’t fussed, so can present it more neutrally than someone who actually dislikes the official dress dress code – and say that some people are frustrated that the dress code will be enforced inconsistently, and maybe it would be better to take a co-ordinated approach (such as updating the written dress code to reflect the ‘real’ dress code).

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Manager has the right to do this… but I think you’ll find she’s out of step with other aspects of the company culture as well, and it wouldn’t surprise me if she doesn’t last long there, so this issue may well be self-resolving. Let it play out (and HR, which I’m sure the company must have, will take an interest if there’s a sudden uptick in disciplinary processes from this manager).

  54. But maybe not*

    Going away gift ideas for a former employee!

    At my last job, I supervised an employee who I remained relatively close with after I left. I served in a part mentor/part friend role. (Feels more mentor to me and more friend to her, if that makes sense). I even helped with her wedding – but still, in a way that was more in line with my work duties (coordination/operations) than a friend.

    She is moving out of the lower 48 in a couple of weeks and we have our Last Lunch together next week. I plan to cover her lunch and get her a card, but should I do anything else?

    1. the Viking Diva*

      Our go-to gift for people who leave is a small artwork highlighting the local landscape (we live in a scenic place, and a photo or watercolor is easy to come by). It’s attractive, not expensive or controversial, flat to pack. Doesn’t require too much guesswork about personal taste – can be displayed at home or workplace, or put away in a drawer if they don’t like it but still think fondly of us.

    2. Yes.*

      If she is moving out of the continental U.S., she may actually not want one more thing she has to pack. Would you feel comfortable asking her? Or getting her something that exists at her new location (tickets to see a performer you know she likes, etc)?

  55. AnonAugust*

    In general, how do you come up with “Smart” goals for a job when you’re actually trying to leave said job? Do you just lie? I’m so demotivated I can’t really come up with anything. And the culture here is that I would have to start working on it immediately. Meanwhile there’s rumors that I’ll be moved to learning something new anyway. It would be easier if the boss would just fill out the goals since we must do what they decide anyway. But we must pretend that employees have a say in their career around here.

      1. Charley*

        Been there! I would say think about your active or potentially upcoming, how you would theoretically like them to be completed, and what skills someone (who hopefully isn’t you!) would be likely to get out of that.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Put a gigantic, silent, “Assuming I were to be here for the full year” at the beginning of everything in your head. And then treat it as a dispassionate intellectual exercise.

      Alternatively, pretend you’re writing the goals for your evil twin, who is exactly like you in every where, except they actually DO want to work there.

      1. Awkwardness*

        I agree on the first paragraph.
        You just do not know how long your job search will take.

        And… if your can set goals for yourself, use it! You have the chance to sneak in one or two topics that actually bring a smile to your face.

    3. ferrina*

      Pretend like you aren’t going to leave. What would your goal be if you knew that you wouldn’t get a job offer until 9-12 months later?

      For a SMART goal- one of my favorite things is to build a pre-planning and planning phase in. The pre-planning is often just chatting with people and getting a general knowledge base. It’s actually incredibly helpful, but when used improperly, it’s an excuse to chat with people you like while claiming to be productive.

      A SMART goal can also be to increase efficiency in something you already do- that way you can claim to be working on it while doing the tasks that you regularly do.

      1. Rainy*

        Yup. I wrote this year’s strategic plan for my program while I was being courted by a new employer and knew that if I got the job I’d be leaving. But now they have a strategic plan and assuming they backfill my role in a timely fashion, the new person will have some idea of where I was coming from and how to accomplish my program’s goal, with an example of how I would be going about it.

        Of course, they’re probably not going to fill my position for most of a year, they’ll almost certainly be unable to hire someone as qualified as me for the money, and whoever they do hire (based on my somewhat cynical observation of the last few hires) is going to have no clue what my job entails and no skills to do it themselves, but nobody can say I didn’t leave a plan behind.

      2. Sneaky Squirrel*

        Yes, I would write it assuming a worst case scenario option. If my plans completely fell through to leave, what would my goals have been if I had to stay at the company?

    4. The Tinman*

      This was going to be my question, I am being asked to set up goals within our payroll system that will be reviewed by my manager along with them setting goals for me. There is a chat box for feed back. The SMART goal talk is the focal point. I am also looking to change my job shortly. I am hyper critical of myself so my goals are very high.

  56. the Viking Diva*

    Question for anyone familiar with hiring people on work permits for non-US citizens (Employment Authorization Document, EAD):
    My employee’s EAD had to be renewed because their spouse got a new visa (same type, different sponsor). My employee’s EAD has been approved but has not physically arrived yet; our HR office insists on seeing the physical card. Last time this happened it was a giant rigmarole and we had to fire and rehire her for just a 4 day gap in eligibility. It took loads of my time and her pay was screwed up for months.

    I know they cannot work during this time, but can anyone offer examples of a more graceful solution to the temporary change in work status? (again, the EAD is approved, just not in hand, and we want them back on the job as soon as they are eligible) Is there some way to “suspend” or “freeze” an employee’s status instead of delete and start over? This large organization hires a lot of foreigners in various capacities, so it seems like there has got to be a better way to deal with this than terminate and rehire (a slow process with signatures up the chain).

    Note: I have no deciding power in how it’s done but was absolutely dismayed by how clueless HR and Legal folks were last time – though this surely happens often at my org given the number of employees and slowness of the federal process. So I’m looking for either better examples to pass along, OR to know why they have to do it this way.

      1. Sneaky Squirrel*

        Leave without pay might work but it’s likely their immigration attorneys will suggest actual termination. You would need to substantially document it to show that the employee had no access to work and was not collecting pay in this time.

        EAD cards have a specific start date and end date. If the employee hasn’t presented a new EAD card, chances are they are not legally authorized to work in the USA. HR is requiring to see the document physically because USCIS regulations (form I-9) typically requires this of employers. Your employee can get in a lot of trouble, up to and including deportation, if they are found to have been working when they shouldn’t be.

        If your employee has no work authorization, even just for a few days, your HR is right that termination is the best way to demonstrate compliance with USCIS laws. You may not be able to get around that. However, you could ask them to see if they can retain some of the employee’s work set up. Instead of deleting IT accounts, see if they can freeze them. Or ask if they can retain the employee’s tax forms in anticipation of their restart so the employee doesn’t have to fill them out again.

      2. Sneaky Squirrel*

        This would likely be frowned upon by immigration attorneys. The important factor here is whether the employer’s records document that the employee was not working during this time. Leave without pay records might be sufficient, but it could also open up the conversation to further scrutiny such as whether the employee had IT access, access to timesheets, access to benefits, etc.

        1. Sneaky Squirrel*

          Sorry for so many posts. My posts got eaten up by the site and then all posted later!

      3. the Viking Diva*

        that’s what I’d hoped the first time, but leave is for employees. They cannot “work” and apparently that means they also cannot “be an employee” who is not working. It’s really all about the definition of “work as I can tell.

    2. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Your HR office insists on seeing the physical card because that is the law for this situation. Your HR must comply with form I-9 regulations which often requires a representative to physically see the card. EAD cards have an explicit start date and end date on them of which the visa holder can work for. Working without complying to the terms of the EAD and I-9 could have far higher consequences to your employee, including deportation. In this situation, our attorneys would have also 100% recommended us to end employment and rehire once we could reverify the EAD and we comply with our attorney’s recommendations.

      If your HR allows it, you could ask for them to coordinate it so that your employee doesn’t have to be re-set up as a new hire again? We often do so for staff with such a short turn around time to rehire. We would still have to terminate and restart benefits (PTO, retirement, etc) in accordance with our policies because people who do not have work authorization should not be receiving these benefits. However, this could mean asking HR to instead freeze their IT accounts rather than delete it or seeing if they’ll hold on to the payroll records so that employee doesn’t have to redo tax forms. What’s most important is that your employee has 0 access to work in the time and should not be being compensated for this time.

      1. the Viking Diva*

        thank you, Sneaky. I understood until you got to the last sentence. The employee and I are fully cognizant that they cannot and will not work, and won’t report time or get compensated in any form. What I don’t understand is why that implies that they must be formally terminated only to be rehired when the dang card arrives. Again, it seems like different definitions of “work” are at play here.

        1. Sneaky Squirrel*

          I can see why that last sentence seemed contradictory. It depends a little bit on what USCIS chooses to accept as proof of compliance with the law if the company were audited. Formally ending the employment and rehiring them is the easiest way to demonstrate compliance with the law. It’s clean cut. This is why most immigration attorneys will suggest this route. It also makes it easier for the employee to explain their employment during visa interviews with immigration officers.

    3. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I am no expert on this stuff, but it sounds like there’s an important distinction between “work” and “employment.”

      If your employee cannot WORK but can be EMPLOYED, then leave without pay would probably satisfy everyone. This is like someone on medical leave.

      If your employee cannot be EMPLOYED, then yeah – she’ll have to be terminated and re-hired.

  57. Employed Minion*

    After taking almost a year off to recover from burnout, I started a new job at the beginning of the year. There were redflags at the interview and offer stages but I accepted anyway because we were running out of money. I was hopeful it would good enough, though not a great fit.

    It has been awful since the first week. But I did get a raise at my 3 month review. That was encouraging but then things got worse.

    On the positive side, have completely rebuilt our savings to where it was when I stopped working last year! And I have recently applied to a few jobs at my previous company, and reached out to my contacts there. I left on good terms so I’m hopeful to interview soon and maybe return. My burnout was more due to life stuff than work

    1. ferrina*

      So glad you are reaching out and looking to leave! It sounds like you are doing your best with a bad hand- sometimes that’s all you can do.
      Good luck!

    2. M2*

      Unless it’s a toxic workplace I would do your work and leave it at work. Try to find joy outside of work. I talk to people who expect to only have to do what they like at work, that isn’t how it works. I do tons of things I don’t like and work with people I find mean, annoying, lazy, manipulative, but also work with kind, creative people and hardworking people. None of us is perfect and honestly once I decided to do only what I need to do for my role and “kill em with kindness” as one says my job has been way better. I am trying to leave an organization I have worked at for more than 5 years.

      I think so many people expect to love work and have a great time, but work is really a two way agreement where you make money and you produce things for your employer. Find joy in the fact the money from your new job grew your savings. Find joy in a small thing- you got a raise after 3 months, yay!

      I think it’s great you’re looking for a better fit but if you were not at your previous employer at least 3 years it might look like job hopping and be a red flag for some employers. Not supporting staying in a bad situation though.

      Good luck!

  58. Oatmeal is Good*

    I work defense procurement at a large company. Long story short, I used to be friends with a coworker who had all kinds of red flags I tried to downplay, which culminated in ger telling my boss at the time a bizzare lie feigning concern about my mental health. I ended the friendship obviously, which I had been considering anyway when she were beginning to act weird and jealous because I’d been getting recognition at work, and my boss and his leadership were looking to move me up in the organization. The ex friend literally said that it would “be a shame if it (lie scenario) affected my chances for a promotion”. This clearly was a pathetic ineffective attempt at sabotage since I got promoted to Manager of a different department about a year ago.

    I have to deal with her more in this role so I let bygones be bygones and acted really friendly and professional. People were surprised I could let it go considering, but it’s work and really there’s more important things to worry about than her pettiness. She even said to her boss it was good if me to address it directly. That didn’t last.

    She’s up to her old antics, and not just with me, and I’ve been told HR is watching her. Nonetheless I get constant email’s and snark in meetings basically saying I don’t know what I’m talking about, I don’t do my job, and I’m wrong. She is constantly overstepping and causing problems with a cross-industry service delivery team I oversee and directing them to do stuff they shouldn’t and souring the relationship I have with them. She got caught lying about this on top of doing really incorrect stuff she tried to cover up. We are obligated to report regulatory non-compliance to the Quality team, so she claimed we “targeted” her. Frankly, I feel targeted.

    Since HR is involved and I’m assuming she’s on some sort of PIP, I don’t know what else to do. I have asked her manager and director to speak to her but everyone is so sick of her they try to ignore her and tell other people to ignore her too. My director has tried to intervene as well. This is a common issue at our company where problem children never really get dealt with and people just hope they quit.

    I’ve said directly to her to stop interfering and it seems to fuel the flames. She doubles down with the passive aggressive treatment, even so far as replying to emails with our government customer copied. With HR and her leadership doing nothing, I’m stuck with her slandering me and messing with people for whom I’m responsible for overseeing their contract performance management. She has genuine mental health issues which I have empathy for but that’s truly not my problem.

    I don’t know what to do.

    3. Charley*

      I’m so sorry – that sounds really tough.

      Have you had a direct conversation with the team that you are responsible for where you say (but phrased over than this), “Please don’t take instructions from Brenda, she isn’t responsible for this project and as a result her information can be out of date and sometimes inaccurate. Please come to me and don’t hesitate to ask me questions if you’re ever not sure of what we need to do.”

      It seems like coworker is not going to change, so if your company is really unwilling to get rid of her, I’d focus on what you can control and make sure all of your direct reports and collaborators are as immunized as possible against her BS.

      2. ferrina*

        Love the suggestion to talk to your team- if you manage the team, you can tell them to direct all of Brenda’s emails directly to you. I’ve had to do that with my team when there was a certain toxic staff member- any message she sent to them would be immediately forwarded to me, and she knew it. I positioned it to her as “my team is very busy, and this helps us ensure that all projects are properly staffed.” (or some non-Brenda related regular management reason, but Brenda read between the lines)

    4. ferrina*

      Ask HR. It sounds like you suspect that she’s on a PIP but you don’t know. PIPs take time- usually 2-3 months. Tell HR about the problem and ask what they recommend, and if they would like you to provide documentation of specific incidents. If she is on a PIP and still being snarky to you, it would be helpful for HR to have documentation showing that she’s still being unprofessional so HR can potentially use it against the PIP (of course, HR can’t tell you if this is what they are going to do, so you sort of have to trust the system).

      That says, if she’s still treating you badly based on a health condition she claims that you have, that’s an ADA violation. ADA protects both diagnosed conditions and perceived conditions. If she’s claiming that she believes you have a health condition then treating you differently based on that (false) health condition, ADA kicks into play and you can claim discrimination. You can consult a lawyer on what your options might be.

      Unfortunately, if your organization has a history of not dealing with problems, I’m not holding out hope. Dust off your resume just in case- you don’t need to do a full-blown job search, but sending out some feelers might give you a better sense of your options. Good luck.

    5. Rick Tq*

      I suggest sending an email to the teams you manage with CCs to HR, your management and hers clearly stating that she has NO management authority to assign tasks to their team(s), set schedules, or determine how tasks the teams perform are completed.

      If she has some authority over tasking it needs to be made clear she has control over her work, not the work assigned by others.

  59. Melon Merengue*

    Anyone deal with a boss who doesn’t have time to manage the team? Bewteen traveling (sometimes work, sometimes personal) and being overloaded when they are actually here, my boss can’t manage us as closely as I think they’d otherwise like to, and the way they had been doing before becoming so busy in the last year. For me personally there are approvals and materials I need ordered to be able to do my job and it’s consistently just not happening even with follow-ups, so I feel stuck and unproductive. There are some issues on the team generally that are kind of being allowed to fester and worsen. I don’t see boss’s workload magically easing up soon, so I don’t know what to do about anything.

    1. ferrina*

      See if your boss can set aside an hour every 2 weeks for Everything You Need.

      During this hour, have a really tight agenda and run down the easy items first- I need your signature for X, do a routine approval for Y, etc. Fill out as much as you can in advance. Do all the leg work for any questions. Where applicable, have Option A and Option B ready so your boss can choose between two feasible options.

      If the boss wants to manage and doesn’t have time, I’ve found that this gets the highest ROI for them.

    2. ALo*

      I like the first suggestion. I was also thinking can you get yourself authorized to do some of the approvals for dollar amounts up to $x so you don’t need as much from boss?

  60. JewishAndVibing*

    How do you approach a need for a raise when your branch (but not the overall company) is struggling?

    1. Alex*

      You should never frame a raise as something you “need”–but rather, something you have earned. Meaning, “Here is how I have been contributing at a higher level, and I think it warrants a raise.”

    2. MigraineMonth*

      The branch will be struggling more if you leave for another company that will pay you what your experience and contributions are worth. I’d say just use Alison’s advice and research to make the case that you should be paid more based on COL increases and your contributions.

      If they cannot because they are struggling, you do need to be prepared to move on (or move to a different branch), though.

  61. Which new job?*

    Suggestions for part time jobs that have mixture of brain/data work, regular moderate movement, fairly routine, and more than entry level pay? I’m thinking about a new job but not in a hurry. Willing to do a little study but not more than two years.

    I’m currently doing data entry with a good group of people but the jobs I’ve enjoyed the most have been lab work and a couple of field contracts, one visiting families for children’s health research and a biosecurity field officer.

    I am conscientious and intelligent enough to make a reasonable go at many jobs. Good with analysis, accuracy, genuinely curious about how things fit together, like to be comfortable, small teams, happy to walk around. Not good at physically very hard jobs, sales, presenting much past neat and clean, extroverted charm, crowded spaces, toddlers and lots of emotion.
    I’ve thinking about some kind of sampling or estimating work but I’m not sure what the job titles are and the part time might be a problem.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      If you don’t mind some light travel and live in a reasonably well-settled area, how about real estate assessments? My dad did it after taking a few classes, and he really enjoyed it.

      You do have to be good at both math and people.

      1. Which new job?*

        That sounds interesting, in my city it’d probably only be driving and most places are within 90 mins.

  62. Ahh Buisness Trip*

    How much notice is reasonable to expect ahead of a work trip?

    My job requires me to travel three or four times a year for up to three weeks at a time. Some of these trips are domestic, but about about a third are to far-flung international locations. Our work is important, but never urgent–mostly projects with one or two year timelines. I love to travel! This is all great.

    The problem is that they don’t plan for or commit to these trips until a 3-4ish weeks in advance. This makes it hard to get my life set up (getting flights and travel clinic appointments, rearranging other commitments, etc.). It also makes it hard to plan other things–I am currently being asked to wait on planning any personal travel in November, which is Thanksgiving in my country, while they decide if they are dispatching me somewhere that month.

    What is reasonable here? How far in advance does your work commit to non-emergency travel plans?

    1. Maggie*

      For me the length of trip and it being international would mean I need more notice. For a short domestic trip, 2-3 weeks would be fine for me. However to be gone for up to 3 weeks and potentially internationally I’d honestly want 2-3 months notice for that. That’s a long time to be gone and if you potentially need vaccinations etc it’s a lot. I only have a pet but if I had kids yeah I’d be needing some notice to arrange care. And to ask people to hold any personal travel in November is also a little unfair when it’s one of the biggest travel holidays of that year. I’d say it’s not beyond the pale, but it’s not enough time for me for a long international trip.

    2. Jenny*

      I am in a field that used to have a lot of travel and now it is an average of 4-5 weeks per year. Usually we get at least 3 weeks notice, but that is for a 1 week domestic trip. For a multi-week international trip where I would have to make all the arrangements myself? I’d be irritated at less than a couple of months.

      Is this a matter of your supervisor just being ignorant about the travel? (We once had a manager that kept trying to get his people to travel on almost no notice and they started quitting.) If so, I’d bring it up with them and explain how hard it is to plan.

      1. Ahh Buisness Trip*

        Everyone, including my direct boss, travels and gets how it works. (We are both senior leadership.) I think I am just more of a planner than a lot of other people at my organization–and especially more than our CEO who makes a lot of these calls! In past jobs, I was that person who put all their PTO on the calendar right away in January. So I recognize that my personal preferences veer to the other extreme and want to be reasonable.

        So far, I am trying to proactively ask about travel for specific projects and to follow up regularly on potential travel needs. But I am getting to the point where I am tempted to set some deadlines around this, like “I really need to book my personal November travel by August 15, so could we please make a call on the China trip by then?” But I want to balance what I want with what my organization needs.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      ugh my husband used to ROUTINELY get like, three days notice before they needed him to fly off to the other side of the country for two weeks, and he was not willing to push back on that at all. I think the record was, they told him on Friday afternoon that he needed to be in southern Texas on Monday morning and stay for two weeks. (And that two weeks happened to cover a holiday, I think either the Fourth of July or Memorial Day, I forget which, so he got to spend his three day weekend sitting in a hotel room by himself because he melts at temperatures above 65 and going anywhere in Texas in summer did not appeal to him at all.)

      He got a new manager, and now it’s BETTER, but still not great – they’re sorting out the final details today of a business trip the week of August 19th.

      1. Jay (no, the other one)*

        My husband is a consultant to a non-profit with a USAID contract overseas. When the US staff travels to the project site, the dates and agenda have to be approved by several layers of bureaucracy in the host country and then by someone in the US. They usually put the dates on the calendar months in advance but they won’t know for sure if they’re going until maybe 2-3 weeks ahead. I know this is better than having no notice at all, but when our kid was in HS and I was working full-time it was really annoying to have ten days held on the calendar three times a year, often for no good reason.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          That would annoy me too, for sure. I like there to be Plans in place in a timely manner, and for the plans to be fairly stable once they’re set.

          1. Ahh Buisness Trip*

            Yes, this is me too! As a professional, I totally get that plans need to change and I want to be flexible. As a human with a life, I want things set.

    4. Angstrom*

      Used to work in a field where you could be on a plane to a customer the same day they called, so my perspective may be skewed. I think an absolute minimum should be days of notice = days of travel, so at least a week of notice for a week of travel.

    5. I Have RBF*

      IMO, international travel needs at least enough notice to get a visa (work trip is different from vacation/leisure) and get decent plane fares.

  63. Hopeful interviewee*

    Anyone with DSO experience? I have an interview next week and worry my lack of working experience (I have international student experience) with US immigration regulations etc will be my biggest minus. I’m going to read up on the DHS website but if anyone has any tips or other places to look, I’m all ears!

    1. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I’m not a DSO but I have worked closely with non-immigrants who often need to connect with their DSO on a number of topics. You would be helping international students on required processes related to their schooling but also their legality in the US. Applying for social security numbers, seeking licenses to drive, applying for work authorizations, changing majors.

      I hope we can share links. USCIS is a good place to look. You would primarily be dealing with students in F-visas (student visas) and M-visas (vocational studies). A lot of the DSO appears to be maintaining SEVIS records within legal timelines. (Hopefully we can share links: https://www.ice.gov/sevis/dso-requirements)
      https://www.ice.gov/sevis/dso-requirements

      1. Hopeful interviewee*

        Oh good, yeah that was the gist that I gathered looking on DHS but will check your link and all those deets! I feel reassured it’s mostly, once you know your stuff and keep up with any changes, it seems fairly… “straightforward” is perhaps not the best way to put it haha. Logistically in my head, I think it’ll make it simpler. Thank you!

  64. PivotTime*

    Remote work for legal or library positions?
    Can anyone recommend:
    A. Companies that have remote positions library or legal fields? (I’m a former librarian trying to get into the law field)
    B. Websites that list remote positions that aren’t scams? Every time I try to do searches it seems to come up with questionable websites that I’m not sure I should trust

    I am moving but the housing is contingent on another person getting their visa approved, which is TBD. I need to get a job before the timing of the move so I thought maybe a remote job (where the company works with the state I’m moving to) would be a good option. Any ideas?

    1. Ashley*

      IME larger law firms will be more likely to have the remote work and let you work in multiple states because they are already set up for payroll taxes and insurance in multiple jursidications.

      1. PivotTime*

        Ashley, thank you! I hadn’t thought of that but it makes sense. I appreciate the advice.

    2. Pancakes*

      There are outfits that do doc review for law firms. I don’t know their names, but a google search might work.

  65. why can't people just make good choices?*

    How do you not feel icky reporting things to HR? I was told (by the people involved) about something definitely not okay that happened at a work event. Both the instigator and the victim were laughing and joking about it. Could it have been exaggerated for the story? Sure, but there was also a supervisory dynamic at play. Also even if the victim wasn’t bothered, I was very uncomfortable hearing about it. I reported it to my manager (with the context and caveat that I didn’t witness it). I don’t know what I expected but I fear getting labeled as naive/a complainer. I just get so frustrated when employers make a big deal about culture and then don’t want to address issues. I am just questioning if I should have said anything at all or left it to the people actually involved. Ugh

    1. ferrina*

      A toxic culture is self-perpetuating. A single toxic event doesn’t create a toxic culture; it’s when that event is unaddressed and treated as acceptable, then more people start doing similar behavior, and that behavior is treated as acceptable, until the toxic behavior is a company norm.

      If you trust your HR, it’s good to give them information when you are uncomfortable about something. HR will look into it, and often they have more context than you do. I work HR-adjacent, and there have been several times I’ve been privy to information that I felt compelled to share with HR, and it turns out it was a larger part of a pattern.
      Important caveat: Some HR teams just won’t care or won’t do anything. Or they will investigate and you won’t see the outcome. Some super toxic HR will even blame the messenger. So use what you know about your particular HR.

      2. Lily Rowan*

        That last part is correct — I have great HR and brought an uncomfortable situation, and they were very helpful. The senior HR person told me she would speak to the senior person I was concerned about, and I believe she did even though I never heard anything else about it (which I think was correct).

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      This is way too light on details. Who are these people in relation to you? How can there be a victim and they are laughing at it? Was it an insult, assault, safety violation? Recent or so long ago that they’ve already developed a history of performing well and atoned for the past wrong. What is your HR like. Are they more punitive or will they rationally deal with the issue? What do you want them to do? Or do you just want a “report?”

      Too many questions to answer

      1. why can't people just make good choices?*

        Random people from my company. It involved someone (in a supervisory position) spiking the other person’s drinks with alcohol, and intentionally misleading them to believe they were non alcoholic.

        1. The Unionizer Bunny*

          I had to double-check that the victim was the other person in this conversation.

          Definitely worth notifying H.R about – you do not want that kind of behavior normalized! Next time, the victim could be someone who is avoiding alcohol because she’s been trying for a child (and she doesn’t know exactly when she might become pregnant – it could have been weeks ago and she just doesn’t know yet), or someone who avoids alcohol for religious reasons (making it a very expensive lawsuit for the company when the victim finds out a supervisor did it), or someone who has an alcohol allergy (it’s a real thing – look it up!), or just someone the supervisor wants to make sexual advances towards while taking advantage of reduced awareness and slowed reflexes.

          And this is at a work event! Highly alarming and dead serious. Consider discussing the matter with that supervisor’s other subordinates – this is a safety issue and a “working conditions” issue, if anyone retaliates (tries to silence you or to punish you for warning others), it’s a red flag about what management expects to get away with and you might want to begin exploring “get the hell away from there” options anyway. (Under which circumstances I would have no qualms whatsoever about telling you how to qualify for a payout for protecting your coworkers.)

        2. Busy Middle Manager*

          oh. As someone who is sober I think this is bad, OK to report! This one’s pretty clear cut. I couldn’t imagine losing a decade of sobriety to someone doing a prank. Not that it’s OK for people who drink either…also safety concerns. What if they had to drive home, take care of a child later, etc.

        3. Irish Teacher.*

          That’s horrible. I was imagining something like somebody making a joke about a minority somebody was part of and that person not appearing to mind/taking it as a joke, but it being something that not all members of that minority would take that way. Not that that would be OK either but I could see somebody thinking that “well, I was only saying it to somebody I know doesn’t mind” and not thinking that others could overhear and be upset.

          You are definitely not overreacting. What if the person wasn’t drinking because they were on medication that reacted badly with alcohol or because they were planning to drive afterwards? In the latter case, somebody not even involved in the incident could be injured or killed. Messing with somebody’s food or drink is a really dangerous thing to do.

    3. Qwerty*

      Any chance your discomfort is actually at the situation as a whole? Going to HR was your one action item, so the brain might be latching onto that. You were put in a situation that made you uncomfortable, even if you only heard about it second hand. But you can’t really look at that and find anything to do differently, so your brain goes to the next logical step which you reporting it to your manager, since you were actively involved.

      If everything was actually fine, all that will come out of this is a slightly awkward conversation for some people that everyone can recover from. If things go south, odds are that more stuff was found or someone’s reaction to the awkward conversation set off alarm bells.

      1. why can't people just make good choices?*

        That’s sort of where I landed. If I misunderstood the situation or the people involved were both okay with it then should be pretty easy to straighten out. But if it’s part of a pattern it would be pretty gross.

        1. TO person*

          I think that counts as assault. It should be reported and ppl told to stop. It’s probably a liability for the company too.
          Even if it was laughed off it’s completely inappropriate among friends let alone at work. Never mind it was a supervisor!
          You are trying to let it go as icky joke but your brain is correctly telling you this is unforgivable workplace behaviour. Supervisors have been fired bring present at out of control after work drinking never mind deliberately poisoning their drink.

          1. why can't people just make good choices?*

            I feel like I’m in backwards land that people were laughing it off as no big deal. I get that alcohol culture is weird, and maybe the person who had their drink spiked didn’t mind. Maybe I am overreacting because of how incandescent I would be if someone disregarded my expressed desire not to drink and tricked me into drinking. Even if there was no “nefarious” intent. I know I have an overly strong sense of justice/rule following (thanks, brain), so I’m trying to calibrate what a reasonable response to this is.

            1. Kay*

              No – as someone who thoroughly enjoys their alcohol, when I read what the situation was I was floored. This is 100% not okay, 100% I would be taking it up with HR, this is just so far outside of acceptable it isn’t even a question.

    4. Apex Mountain*

      It sounds like even if the victim here was ok with it, it’s still worth a report because you don’t want this person thinking it’s ok and doing it again. I probably wouldn’t have reported it myself but it’s definitely a reasonable approach.

      What did your manager say?

      1. why can't people just make good choices?*

        He listened and said they would make an inquiry. I’ve left out some heirarchy/organization details for anonymity but there’s a weird reporting structure here. He also said the fact that it was something I heard about (instead of witnessing) made it more complicated.

        1. Miracle*

          Managers don’t always know what to say in these situations. They usually don’t have that much training in how to handle the exact conversation. This is definitely something you should report HR, but then just let it go. So you don’t drive yourself crazy.

          I am guessing these people are friends outside of work? That might confuse the relationships between them and maybe that is why the victim doesn’t care?

    5. Hyaline*

      I mean, it’s never comfortable to confront problematic behavior like this…and from what you said, that is really egregiously wrong behavior. Even if it was exaggerated or misconstrued, it’s not something you ever joke about–so the right thing is for the behavior to be addressed. That can’t happen without someone bringing it up! And here’s the thing–you ARE involved because this happened at your company. “I am not comfortable with people spiking drinks at work events” is clear, reasonable, and in no way “naive/complainer.” You did the right thing. Whether your company does the right thing is another story, but I hope it’s at least investigated. The fact that you’re reporting based on hearing after the fact may complicate things, so I wouldn’t write them off as horrible if they’re unable to really bring the hammer down on anyone (they might not get anyone willing to say “yep it happened”) but it will still send a message of “this is not ok behavior” at the least if it’s investigated.

  66. GMAT?*

    Can anyone who has taken the GMAT recently weigh in on what resources/strategies/prep books you actually found helpful for studying? Especially if it has been a little while since you were in school! I’m overwhelmed by the amount (and price) of prep books and other study aids.

    1. MsM*

      Not that recently, but I’d start by taking advantage of the free practice tests the various prep companies offer, see what areas you need the most help in, and then just really drill down on those types of questions.

  67. ALo*

    Question about adding new accomplishment or education to a resume. I have recently taken one online class through a reputable university’s continuing ed program, let’s call it “Intro to Teapot Sales” to complement my twenty years’ experience in teapot manufacturing. I probably will continue with the additional four more classes in the Teapot Sales certificate program, and I am looking for consulting work in Teapot Sales. Should I list this on my resume under “Skills” or “Education” (which doesn’t seem a good fit with my masters and bachelors)? Should I write it as:

    Continuing education: “Intro to Teapot Sales” (university name/program) 2024, certificate in Teapot Sales anticipated 2025

    1. ferrina*

      Er….one class isn’t a lot. I wouldn’t add it to your resume- experience is generally much more valuable than one-off educational programs.

      If you are in the process of getting a certificate, that’s what I would highlight. That would go into your Education section: “Program, University, certificate in Teapot Sales anticipated 2025”

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        Yeah I listed a certification under education, like ferrina suggests, but if you change your mind and take one class do you have a miscellaneous/other/additional section you could tuck that under?

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Since you’ve only done 20% of the classes, I’m not sure the intro class warrants a lot of space on the resume. However, it might be handy to tuck into your cover letter — ” I’m looking forward to shifting my emphasis from teapot manufacturing to teapot sales by taking a Teapot Sales certificate program for completion in Summer 2025. My previous experience working on the manufacturing side, including consulting with the product development and sales teams, has provided a strong knowledge base and has reinforced my energy in this direction.” (or something far less terribly written)

    3. AdditionalClasses*

      I have a line where I say additional classes in X, Y, Z underneath my degrees. I lost both actual university classes and professional training.

      Good luck!

    4. Alex*

      When I’ve had classes I’d taken as not part of a degree, I would include a section called “additional coursework” and list it there.

      This is especially true if it was not offered for academic credit.

  68. Dasein9 (he/him)*

    5 weeks after a layoff and I’m feeling pretty discouraged. I know, I know, some people have been job searching for much longer. I’ve read the horror stories. They’re not helping.

    Following all the advice out there: networking and taking a multi-pronged approach by applying for exciting stretch opportunities and dream jobs as well as ones that would be a step or two down and some that would be several steps down. Am also trying to see this as an opportunity to start a new chapter and become something new again, but excitement is difficult to muster over the fears.

    Obviously, I’m applying a lot, but I worry that hiring won’t pick up until after the election and then the holidays will also be slow for hiring.

    1. ALo*

      How about taking a class or certification while you’re in limbo as a way to stay engaged and motivated?

    2. ferrina*

      I’m sorry. This sucks. And it’s okay that this sucks. You don’t have to feel excited if you don’t feel excited. Some people will, and some people won’t. Either way is okay and normal.

      It sounds like you are doing the right things. I assume that you’ve looked at your resume and cover letter and made them strong. You’re not pigeonholing yourself and looking at an array of opportunities. You’re thinking strategically about what elements of a job are negotiable and which are not (i.e., how many steps down will you take, what’s an acceptable lower range for the salary)

      You’re doing everything right, so let your mind think about other things. In fact, force your mind to think about other things. Obviously set aside time for your job search, but also set aside time for things you enjoy. Work on hobbies or volunteer, get outside (if it’s not too hot). Giving your mind some time away from the job search is good for mental health, and helps you keep up your energy and enthusiasm while you are searching.
      Good luck!

    4. ItsTough*

      You’re right that 5 weeks isn’t very long, but that doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to feel lousy about it.

      So I’d say try not to get too discouraged because it’s not helpful, but also acknowledge that you’re allowed to have feelings.

      Maybe step away for a bit when you’re feeling particularly down? Take a day or two off. Then go back and keep trying.

  69. MCMonkeybean*

    I have a site question I wondered if anyone else is experiencing. I have suddenly started getting errors messages this week about my VPN any time I try to comment on this site. I am required to use a VPN for work and it’s never been an issue before. Did something change?

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Me too!
      I was going to post to ask on the site tech form.

      I use NordVPN on iPad Pro with Safari and I’m amazed this site can even detect the VPN – NordVPN works for all other sites even BBC iPlayer which tries to ban VPNs and is notoriously hard to fool
      I paused the VPN to post, but for security reasons, I will never go online more than a few seconds without the VPN on.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Interesting. I’m wondering if its something with the VPNs like they have blacklisted the site maybe automatically.

    3. Tradd*

      Yes, here, too! No VPN as I was on my personal cell. I even turned off my Apple iCloud Private Relay thing as I thought it might be an issue. Glad to know it wasn’t just me. But it did resolve in time for me to post today. It had been happening the last 24 hours or so.

  70. Florence Reece*

    Very much just complaining, apologies in advance. We have a major project this week that we prepped last week. It’s a two-step process: step one was due on EOD Wednesday, step two was due EOD yesterday. My part of the project was split between me and two teammates, one who’s fantastic and communicative, and one who’s…not.

    My fantastic teammate had a number of extenuating circumstances, so she finished half of step one by EOD Wednesday and delivered the second half for peer review on Thursday morning. That was fine because of the extenuating circumstances and because she TOLD ME IN ADVANCE. I’m doing the peer review for her part and I can be flexible and work late if needed, but I need to know what’s going on. She fulfilled the “know what’s going on” aspect so, no problem.

    The less-fantastic teammate doesn’t have extenuating circumstances to my knowledge. It’s hard to say because she’s one of those “can I call you” people who ghosts if you say “hey, what do you need help with?” instead of agreeing to a meandering call that you’re not prepped for in any way. She’s treated with kid gloves, in part because she called a meeting a month or two ago to complain about both: her incomplete work being listed with her name attached, in a post that also included 3 or 4 other teammates’ work and names, at the beginning of a new process intended to clear out the backlog of that work; AND her work NOT being called out when she made a mistake and another teammate asked to contact me separately to explain the situation (because that teammate had already resolved it and didn’t want to single this person out). When we reassured her that we aren’t trying to make her feel bad by pushing to accomplish our jobs, she doubled down on “my concerns are valid, I have valid feelings” and refused to elaborate. So things have been tense.

    Anyway, she appears to have not even started step one (due WEDNESDAY) until mid-morning Thursday. She is not very technically capable and ran into issues — not sure what, because she would not answer me when I asked her to write out her questions in the group chat so we could find the right support for her — and ultimately appears to have waited until Fantastic Teammate reached out again mid-afternoon. And walked her through the process. We recorded the process on Monday, to be clear, so she has had access to that information all week. Fantastic and I can’t even start step two until she’s done with step one, and as of 11am Friday morning — the date we’re supposed to deploy this — she is still not done with that. She asked to have until noon yesterday.

    We have no immediate supervisor at the moment, so three of us on the team quasi-function as the “leads.” Not an official thing at all, we just happen to be the people who speak up and try to find solutions for the team as a whole. One of those quasi-leads is on PTO so myself and the other quasi-lead are trying to cover her, get this project completed, and accomplish our other work, and I am just…ripping my hair out. I left management over people like this, specifically. I want to just focus on my own work! Please just do the part that I need so I can do my own work! If you don’t know how, don’t just play possum until after the freaking deadline and then ask me to meet with you during my lunch break!

    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I’ll be honest, I think you need to care less. Communicate whatever needs to be communicated to whoever is expecting this work, but be clear about what the holdup is. Don’t take on this person’s urgency, don’t meet with her at lunch. Get your pieces done, own your own part, and let the rest fall where it may.

      1. Florence Reece*

        That’s fair and good advice, honestly, so thank you! I did decline to care most of the week, but the third person in our group was concerned and spending a lot of energy to help, and I felt like a jerk/slacker for not doing that in kind. We also don’t get much face time with our manager except in group meetings, which never feels like a good time to bring up specific personnel issues like this…so it’s gone unsaid for a long time.

        So after checking in with that third person and reassuring her, I emailed our manager about our concerns and told him we’re stalled until this can be fixed. Genuinely appreciate the clarity from your response! Have a great weekend :)

  71. Keyboard Cowboy*

    I’ve been trying to ask my (tech giant) company’s HR for some clarification about their personal leave policy, and I swear, it’s like pulling teeth. How many back-and-forths via a ticketing system (the original respondent didn’t understand my question or answer it in a way that made sense to me in light of the policy; the second respondent didn’t see my follow-up question because of the way I formatted the response email, I guess?) is it reasonable to expect before I just ask to have a 15 minute meeting?

    We used to have per-business-unit HR partners, that you saw in the hallways, that you could grab a meeting room with, no problem. But I guess we don’t do that anymore, so I’m stuck just banging my head into a table every time I get a new email from their Q&A system.

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      It sounds more like an issue with how they do their ticketing system than anything. I’ve had that issue with our maintenance and IT requests where things just get lost or confused.

      Is there a way you can look up who is in charge of PTO or leave policy and make an appointment to see them?

    2. Garden Pidgeons*

      Solidarity from a fellow (soon-to-be-ex) Big Tech employee – the masses of internal bureaucracy and internal ticket systems are something I won’t miss!

      I would definitely try and get a call at this point – e.g. view the ticket system as being mostly about getting someone assigned to the case, and then follow up with them directly.

      If they won’t take a call or it doesn’t work for some other reason, could be worth looping your manager in – management will often have better/more direct contacts with HR because more of their role involves them, so they may not be doing ticket system back-and-forth.

    3. PotatoRock*

      Agree with asking your manager to help escalate.

      But in solidarity, my big tech company moved from “HR business partner who’s name you actually know and who you could go down the hall and talk to if you really need”, to “giant ticket farm” to “you have to convince this LLM chatbot to let you open a ticket at all”. Thanks, I hate it

  72. confused*

    I’m in public accounting and completely burnt out after 6 years. I’m 99% confident I will be receiving an offer from a company I’ve interviewed with after a fairly long process. There have been no red flags throughout the process and I’ve liked the people I’ve met so far, but the team I will be managing is small (very different from what I’m currently managing) and the offer is most likely going to be around the same amount of money I’m currently making. Is it ever ok to make a lateral move? This will only be my second job, and I’m really running on fumes at work currently after 90+ hour weeks for years, so the idea of better hours and “less” responsibility sounds marvelous now. I really can’t imagine continuing to look and strive for a higher position or more money at this point, but can’t tell if I’m making a huge mistake.

    1. Jan Levinson Gould*

      If the new job would require far fewer hours per week worked, then it would actually be a big pay bump if you were to look at it by hourly rate. Over-simplified example (assuming a 52 work week year):
      – $100k at 90 hrs/week comes out to $21 / hr
      – $100k at 40 hrs/week comes out to $48 / hr

      That time back in your life is quite valuable!

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Yes, are there are things you can do in that time that save you money as well. Cook dinner instead of delivery, etc.

    2. Rainy*

      The only person you’re responsible to for your career planning is you. You don’t have to do what’s “expected”. It sounds like the new role is a better place for your mental and physical health and your work/life balance.

    3. ferrina*

      It’s absolutely okay to make a lateral move. People switch companies all the time for reasons that don’t involve promotions. It sounds like you are making a move for a better work-life balance, which is an excellent reason to switch companies.

      Will it impact your ability to get promoted in the future? Absolutely not. The move you are doing sounds really normal.

    4. Shiver me timbers*

      If the lateral move means moving from the edge of a pit to a better job, absolutely. If the move is just gonna burn you out even more, and won’t help in the long run, I wouldn’t.

  73. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    I work in academia and it is still summer session until after Labor Day. I really wish I knew why leadership thinks it is a good idea to offer a workshop from 2-6pm when the university’s core hours are 8am-4:30pm. I can understand events that involve students like art shows, etc. But they are trying a new diversity initiative and there is a workshop next week. If the truly want people to participate more with DEI initiatives they need to do it so it ends at 5. I feel that this may alienate people who are hourly. The are either going to feel bad that they are blowing the event off, even thought they want to participate, or resentful that they are essentially working for free for an hour.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I absolutely agree that any events that are really work-related need to end by the end of core work hours! My departmental retreat yesterday ended at 4:00, and then there was a social gathering after until 5:30/6, but I felt fine about skipping it as it was clearly delineated as “social, no need to attend” when it was scheduled. Anything after work hours has to be strictly social and hopefully attached to a work-related chance to be present and interacting with people. Folks who couldn’t attend the social event but were present on the day of our retreat could get face time with the ED that day, which is important.

    2. Anon4this*

      My partner works in higher ed (not a professor) and works plenty of nights and weekends. It comes with the territory. I would say go to the workshop and leave at 5. My partner has had to leave conferences and workshops all the time because they have other events or things going on.

      It’s academia it’s how it works and most likely the people involved could do those hours. My partner had a coworker who works from 11-7.

    3. Brevity*

      That sounds like the planners are working around the schedule of an upper admin — e.g., “we can’t possibly have a DEI workshop without the Vice Assistant Executive Deputy Provost for Innovation, Planning and Employee Relations Access, and she has meetings until 1:00 and then lunch with the Student and Faculty Success Relations Executive Education Access Subcommittee.”

  74. Pronoun changes at work?*

    A question for people who have changed pronouns at work:

    – How/why/when did you decide to bring up your pronoun change with your boss/team/colleagues/HR?
    – What made you feel safe enough to come out/change pronouns at work?
    – How did the process go?
    – Are you happy you did? Do you have any regrets?

    I’ve been going back and forth about doing so at work and would love to hear about other people’s experiences!

    (I’m increasingly uncomfortable with my assigned pronouns; I would be switching to they/them; I’m only out to some close (non-work) friends so far but have a good friend in the team I could come out to ahead of a big announcement; while pronouns in signatures etc are definitely a thing in my workplace, I only know of a very small handful of people at my ~3000-person company who use they/them pronouns; there are a small number of visibly open trans women at work, not aware of any trans men; my line manager isn’t very familiar with LGBTQIA2S ~stuff~ but we get on well, and he gets on well with the openly gay folks on our team. Not based in the US. A name change is a possibility for the future but not for a long while yet.)

    1. Pronoun changes at work?*

      (I should perhaps also say that I read as queer, and frequently wear a t-shirt that says “You Never Will Surrender To A Narrow View Of Gender”, so a pronoun change might not be the biggest surprise to my colleagues!

      Another consideration is that I communicate frequently with partner organisations, and one of the considerations is how I would approach the change with those colleagues, who I don’t see in person.)

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I am pretty sure there have been letters about this, or at least related, so you might do a search and look at comments there, but I would think it would be important to line up some trusted allies. Because people are mostly using your pronouns when you aren’t there, so having someone check people who get it wrong would be helpful, I think.

        … at least I hope this is true, having played this role recently in a non-work context. “Oh, I didn’t see she was here!” “You didn’t see *they* were here.” “Right, right, sorry.”

        1. allathian*

          Yeah, that’s what I do whenever I hear my MIL deadnaming my husband’s enby nibling (we speak Finnish, no gendered pronouns to worey about).

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I changed pronouns about two years ago. I’m glad I did and so far I have not had any regrets – although I have not yet tried job hunting with a preferred name that doesn’t match my wallet name.

      I’ve been using male name and pronouns socially for a decade, but at my last job I did not feel like I would have a ton of support from top level management if I came out – I didn’t think I would be fired, but I also didn’t think I would likely ever be promoted again. I moved to a new job in 2019 and started to feel like it was a real possibility at the new place. I interviewed during pride month, so it wasn’t a huge surprise to see trans pride and rainbow flags all over the office, including on the front desk. It was a bit more of a surprise to show up for my first day of work and they were still up. So right off the bat, it felt like a pretty safe place to be queer, but I still had a lot of concerns about being visibly trans at work.

      What really kicked the change off a few years later was my new boss asking about pronouns in a 1:1 – I gave him my usual “female pronouns at work” brush-off and he (1) recognized it as a brush-off and (2) very mildly pressed the question again, so I introduced myself, making it clear that I was still using my wallet name and pronouns but I was considering switching at work. I then had a conversation with a trans friend about my concerns – that it might make job hunting harder, mostly – and she pointed out that I wouldn’t want to work anywhere that would give me shit over being queer, so while it does narrow the pool, it also cuts out mostly people I wouldn’t want to work for anyway.

      So then I thought about it for another few months and decided to go for it. One thing that felt super awkward (but turned out to be a huge nothingburger) is that my name is the same as another person on my team – we met up for lunch and I came out to him in person, and he was totally chill about it, it was not an issue at all.

      I let my boss know that I was going to switch name and pronouns at work, I checked with a trans colleague for who to talk to (HR and IT, to get my info changed over). We set a Monday cutover date for my accounts to update. The Friday before, I scheduled 15 minute calls with my team to come out to them more personally.

      I emailed my department to let them know how I wanted them to handle it on customer calls – they didn’t *have* to correct a customer if it would make the call more difficult, but here’s some language to use if my old name comes up.

      I have a lot of intermittent contact with other teams, so I also sent a company-wide email with my new name and pronouns. If I hadn’t worked with other teams as much, I might not have bothered. Also, the company was about 150 people, so not huge.

    3. Catherine*

      At my old job, I didn’t change pronouns as part of a thought-out process. I was a secretary and came out due to sheer frustration because my boss was constantly making dismissive comments about how I should or should not be okay with various things because I was “a girl.” (Given that I was over thirty, if I had considered myself female, shouldn’t I have been a woman at least?)

      I think the precipitating incident was that he told me he knew I was squeamish about bugs because I was a girl, and I snapped that I was neither. He told me not to waste his time with this shit ever again.

      I thankfully have a much better job now.

  75. Chirpy*

    Unfortunately, I was too busy last weekend so I couldn’t reply to a few things on my post-

    I do understand how both retail and seniority works. The frustrating thing here is that I have more seniority than a good 2/3 of the store, including most of the managers, but have the bad luck to have a department head who’s been here for decades. I formerly worked at a different location of the same company, and we had the same problem there with no evening part timer, and their solution was to have everyone, including the full timers with tons of seniority, trade off 1-2 evenings a week so no one person got stuck doing all of it. So clearly this can be handled better by this exact company.

    In most places, family and LGBTQ protections that do not explicitly include asexuality/singleness are almost always interpreted to *not* include them. This includes housing protections – it is legal in most places to discriminate against asexual people, and in surveys of landlords, asexual people were consistently seen as “least desirable” renters. The previous job where I probably did have a decent case, literally everyone I talked to, up to the board, brushed my concerns off, because “obviously the people with kids get flex time”. I had more seniority there than anyone else (by years!), and all I was asking was to not be left alone in the office from 2-5 every Friday when the creepy guys always called. One woman had a stay at home husband and had absolutely no need to leave before 5pm for childcare reasons….other than the divorced mom got to.

    Again, my current department head could, to my knowledge, absolutely work one night a week. Her child is an adult and has worked here at least as long as I have. They don’t even drive together.

    As to how are they cutting my hours and still staying in business…cutting hours until fall shopping picks up is *how*. Management here doesn’t care if there’s only 2 employees in the store at night. But then again, management here is pretty spectacularly bad.

    On the plus side, though, they did actually hire a high schooler. So eventually I won’t be working nights, once he’s trained. Hopefully the horrible guys in the next department don’t get their claws in him like the last kid. Previous kid *used* to be a good worker…

    But I still have no leads on a better job. And have not succeeded in getting a doctor’s appointment, either. I just feel awful all around.

    1. GythaOgden*

      You need to find a lawyer or talk to the EEOC if you think you have some recourse here. We can’t satisfy you with semantic arguments pulled from the laws as they’re written without expertise on how any particular set of circumstances would be treated by arbitration or a judge (who go on the facts of the case more than the semantic interpretation of the law that laypeople like us often indulge in).

      Bear in mind that it’s hard to actually bring a successful case in more clear cut situations of discrimination. I’m sorry, Chirpy, but if you have an actual legal question (like with Tradd’s case above), the only people who can answer it definitively for you aren’t lurking here on AAM; they’re in law or governmental offices. I’m going to repeat my favourite slogan for this sort of thing here: we can’t give you justice but we can give you a hug. (And if you challenge this employer in any kind of way before talking to them as a fellow adult, then you might find yourself out of work entirely, which would be a real blow to your chances of getting out into something more fulfilling.)

      It’s tough, and I’ve been there with the anger, but the job your employer needed you to do has to get done by someone.

      I meant it about the hug, though.

      1. Chirpy*

        Yeah, it’s just frustrating because I know there’s no point in even bringing it up. Even at the job where I might have had an actual case, absolutely no one cared. And the current managers are just terrible for so many reasons that are completely fixable at other locations at other locations. So I’m kind of just ranting because there’s nothing really to be done except leave, which is proving difficult. I do appreciate the hug, though.

      2. Chirpy*

        Also, yes, I am freaking out that my best actual job reference is a conservative guy who made several comments when we worked together that it was high time to get a boyfriend. As it’s now been several years and I still don’t have one, and he’s gotten more conservative, I’m a little worried asking for a reference might not work out. I also realize this is probably just anxiety, but it wouldn’t be the first time a former friend went off the deep end in the last few years, either.

        1. Peachtree*

          You’re definitely overthinking it. Do you really feel that a professional reference is going to withdraw a reference because you’re single? It is anxiety speaking, not reality.

          1. Chirpy*

            With this guy…I mean, I sure hope not. I did really like working for him, even if we disagreed a lot. I haven’t talked to him recently, and I know where he stood on certain issues before something big went down at our former employer (long story, employer handled things correctly, but I think it was the beginning of the end for him there because he sided with the guy who was asked to resign.) And also long story, but I absolutely had churchy people flip from “so great you’re focusing on your studies instead of boys” to literally telling me “you are worthless get out” when it became obvious I was going to graduate college without a boyfriend, so it’s actually happened before. (obviously they’re wrong. but it still hurt.)

    2. Nancy*

      How would a landlord even know someone is asexual? Being asexual is not the same as being single.

      1. Shard*

        Right? That doesn’t even make sense. Asexuals and single people have some overlap as groups, but they’re not remotely the same thing. “Asexual/single” is like saying “Illinois resident/Mazda driver.”

      2. Chirpy*

        No, asexuality and singleness are not the same (though often overlapping) but neither is considered a protected class in most places. Asexuality because it’s usually not explicitly included, and singleness because family protections are intended to protect people with families, not the lack of one.

        1. Nancy*

          Doesn’t answer my question as to how landlords would event know. Where I live, families have a harder time finding apartments to rent.

          1. Chirpy*

            I mean, you’d pretty much have to tell them, which is why I’ve heard people say not to be out about it. Where I live, housing subsidies are preferentially given to families, with singles at the bottom of the list. Which, yes, nobody (including me) wants kids to be homeless, but with years-long backlogs, in practice it means single people get zero help. And landlords can be weird about single people without roommates.

    3. Shard*

      I’d be interested in seeing that survey data about aesexuals being the last desired renters among landlords, Chirpy. Do you have a link?

      1. Chirpy*

        I’ll try to find it again, but I saw it several years ago. It may have been on the AVEN website.

        Because yeah, it was just depressing (I remember the study’s conclusion was that landlords were probably just less familiar with asexuality, but also asexual people are not always welcome in LGBTQ spaces, either – “not queer enough”, but straight people often just think we’re “broken”, which I can definitely attest to that part personally.)

        1. Annie*

          The one cited in the Wikipedia article on discrimination against asexual people re: lack of willingness to rent to asexual people is titled, “Intergroup bias toward “Group X”: Evidence of prejudice, dehumanization, avoidance, and discrimination against asexuals”

          I think it’s because single people are seen as “less in need” or more likely to miss rent due to a bad luck thing than partnered people or family/friend groups as well as single person = loner freak with Issues stereotypes.

          1. Nancy*

            According to wikipedia, that article is “A study of 148 undergraduates at a Canadian university,” so has nothing to do with landlords. It also states that asexuals ranked higher than bisexuals in terms of rentability. It probably has to do with roommates.

    4. Simone of the Biles*

      “ and in surveys of landlords, asexual people were consistently seen as “least desirable” renters.”

      Definitely gonna have to cite your source on this because what. One, how would that even come up in a rental application process and two, no that is not actually a thing. Asexuality is a thing, prejudice and ace-phobia are both things but this particular thing you’re talking about? No. Not a thing.

  76. Garden Pidgeons*

    There was a question last week (I think?) about moving from a startup to a larger company, so I wanted to ask the opposite. I’m moving from Big Tech (which has laid me and my team off) to a ten-person tech team in a sixty-person startup in October – any tips, advice or things to watch out for?

    1. pally*

      Going in: Negotiate for as large a salary as you can get. Reason: the automatic annual raise one gets at a big company may not be the norm. You might go a few years without any increase to your salary. That includes the COL annual increase as well. Where I am, they don’t believe it is the company’s responsibility to provide COL. If you can’t make it on what they pay you, then maybe this isn’t the job for you. They do try to increase salaries annually. In the early days there were multiple years between pay increases.

      On the other hand, small companies have less bureaucracy. They can decide to provide more frequent raises – if things are going well. Might ask about how they do their compensation.

      Also, don’t let them talk you into stock shares in lieu of the larger salary. Unless you know the stock will hold/increase its value over time.

      Job title: this might be negotiated. Make sure it fits what you will actually be doing. Go big here.

      Benefits: These may be lesser than you are used to. For example, health coverage may include a larger deductible than what you had at the big company. On the other hand, over time management may want to add more benefits- you might have a say in what they add to your compensation package.

      Conversely, if things get tight, they can cut benefits too. Hence, see my first point- get as large a salary as you can.

      Expect that your job scope will be wider. IOW, you will wear more hats. We have to replace the burnt-out lights in our offices ourselves as there’s no one else to do this.

      Expect to interact more with the folks there. So keep the relationships friendly and professional. Cuz there’s no avoiding someone you may not like much.

      Depending upon the finances, there will be ups and downs. Purchases for the business may have to be planned out more carefully. Here we had periodic ‘dry spells’ so dry we had to rifle through desk drawers for pens as no purchases could be made for a while. We are more cognizant of the state of the finances than folks at big companies usually are. It can feel a bit scary at times.

    2. elephant*

      It might have been me who asked last week’s question. Going in, apart fro negociating salary, there’s not much to worry about. Over time: be ready with new ideas, or to pivot in any way. Start-ups change ideas all the time, in the same general “space”, and being dynamic and flexible is key. 60 people is a great number – you know everyone by name.

  77. Working On My Night Cheese*

    I have been with my current company for 25 years. I have a strong feeling that I will be laid off soon. I haven’t kept up on my resume and can’t remember the dates of my various positions over the years. I don’t want to ask HR for the information because I don’t want to tip them off that I am looking for another job and possibly forfeiting severance, but not preparing is terrifying. I will ask them for my work history when they let me go and write my resume then, but what can I do now to prepare? For reasons, I need to work 100% remote. Are there sites or companies that you have found particularly helpful when looking for jobs outside of Indeed, etc.? I want to at least start doing some research so that I can hit the ground running once I get my resume together. Being a 50 year old female job searching for the first time in 25 years feels impossible. I am the sole earner in my family and cannot afford to be out of work for long. Where do you even start?

    1. jasmine*

      write your resume and just leave off the dates for now. I’d avoid indeed and the other big name job searching sites if you can help it. see if there are any job hunting sites out there specific to your industry.

      do you have linkedin? is that used by folks in your industry? I’d make one (put in your work experience, IMO its not a big deal if the dates are a bit off and you update them later- just put in your best estimate. for your latest role at the very least). reach out to others in your industry, say that you’re job hunting, and want to connect with others in the industry to exchange knowledge after working in the same company for a long time. you can ask people about their last/latest job hunts and what worked for them. reaching out cold can be intimidating, but the worst they can do is ignore you and there are often people willing to help!

    2. ferrina*

      Do you have any version of your resume? If not, start working on that. Sometimes it’s nice to break up the resume writing into chunks rather than tackling it all at once. I always recommend creating a master resume that has any and every accomplishment you can think of. This resume will be way too long, but the goal is that when you are customizing it for an application, you can keep the strongest bullets (the one that speak best to that job’s requirements) and delete all the rest. It’s easier to erase rather than write from scratch. You don’t have your full work history, but write down what you remember as best you can. You’ll find that you know more than you think. And you really only need the last 15-20 years of work experience listed.

      Similarly, prepare a cover letter template. I have a basic Intro paragraph, then 6-8 possible body paragraphs that each highlight a different skill or anecdote, then a Closing paragraph. Again, this will be too long to use, but when you apply to a job you’ll pick the most applicable 2-3 body paragraphs to use.

      Finally, get acquainted with job sites. Most have a search function, and you’ll have to tinker with your search parameters to get the jobs that are actually applicable to you.

      If you’re feeling really nervous, I recommend sending out a few applications just to get the feel of it. Don’t expect anything- this is purely for practice (I mean, if you get a job from it, that’s really cool too). The first few applications (or dozen, if you’re like me) are going to be shaky, and that’s okay. The more you practice, the more you’ll find your own rhythm and it won’t be as scary.

      Good luck!

    3. captain safetypants*

      I think as far as where to look, a lot of it depends on your field and industry. Different fields have different specialized job sites, while ones like Indeed or LinkedIn are a giant mishmash. Are you a member of any professional associations, or do you have any certifications? Those organizations might be able to point you towards field-specific job sites.

      For reconstructing your work history, I have had good luck digging through my text messages or emails looking for certain keywords, and managed to hone in on dates (at least to the month) that way. I’m not sure how different it would be if it was all within the same company, but when I’ve started at new companies HR always had to email forms and things to my personal email, and I would talk to friends and family about the job change.

      Good luck! Being laid off sucks.

  78. JustaTech*

    Is a sudden push for intensive cross training a warning sign?

    I work in the sciences on the technical side. I’ve been at my company a long time, and the R&D department has shrunk drastically in the time I’ve been here. Within the department we have several groups that do stuff that’s related to the overall work but is generally pretty separate as far as the skills/technology/expertise, think there are biologists, chemists and mathematicians.

    A couple of times over the years our department management (technical people who have moved into management, rather than non-technical managers) have pushed to “cross-train” the entire department. Usually this ends up with me cross training a bunch of people in one specific thing, because it’s the easiest thing for people without specific expertise to learn. This also never goes anywhere because most of these people never do that thing again and then leave.

    But now the department management is absolutely hammering that *everyone* must be trained to do *every* task. Some of this will be easy, but some of it will be really, really hard. Partly because we have no time (two of the groups are swamped with paying work), and partly because teaching a bunch of chemists PCR and teaching a bunch of biologists NMR is hard, and a *lot* of work for the people doing the teaching. (Those are example technologies.)

    In the past management has gotten distracted after I’ve done my trainings, but now they’re very insistent.
    Part of me thinks this is a good idea -yay learning new things! And we are dangerously short of people.
    But it also feels like a threat – like management wants to get rid of the last of us old timers.

    Am I being paranoid?
    (And yes, I’ve been job hunting for years, I missed my jump when the market was good so now there aren’t many positions open, and the last two I interviewed for were closed without hiring anyone.)

    1. jasmine*

      do you see any other indications that they’re looking to push folks out? I wouldn’t necessarily say they want to get rid of employees just from this. it sounds like they don’t want the company’s success to rely on people staying in the role (which is good! people quit, things happen). but they don’t seem to be going about the cross-training in a thoughtful way

      1. JustaTech*

        Looking to push people out intentionally, no.

        Sticking their fingers in their ears when people explained that their policies and management methods were why they were quitting, absolutely.

        We’ve lost a lot of people who chose to leave, and then they laid some people off, and they haven’t been able to hire anyone to fill some essential positions.

        So you’d think they’d not go out of their way to antagonize the remaining staff, but no, management acts like we should be putting in startup hours at a legacy company.

    2. ferrina*

      I was nervous by the first question, but if management is training everyone to do everything, this feels more like a silly management passion project. If it were just you or just your department cross-training, I would be very worried. But if they are trying to get everyone to cross-train each other, I don’t know what the end game would be. Lay off everyone who was cross trained by the people who were just laid off? If they are pushing the old timers to do more teaching than the newer/cheaper staff, that would give me pause, but if the pressure is equal, I’m not as worried. I just wouldn’t move any faster than the person next to me.

      Of course, more depends on how much your manager advocates for your department and what other political tides may be. But this on it’s own feels more like a senior manager went to some sort of leadership seminar, saw a persuasive session on the value of crosstraining, and thought “I’m going to do that for EVERYONE”

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        “this feels more like a silly management passion project”

        Seriously, I can’t imagine anything less useful than cross training everyone on everything. No one is going to remember any of what they’re supposed to do and it won’t be helpful in the slightest if any of those people actually have to *do* the work.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          Yes, but now Management can hold everyone accountable for everything.

          Orange flag at best.

        2. JustaTech*

          Yes, thank you!
          The reason that the only actual effective cross training we’ve done over the years is one team teaching my team how to run our own tests (because they’ve got more important stuff to do and the tests are a standard expectation in the field).
          The other stuff either only gets done twice a year, or that group is just fine for people now, or is so incredibly complicated that we should designate like maybe 2 people to learn it properly and have the rest of us pick up slack for them.

          Heck, most of our actual cross-group work is stuff like “help me label a thousand tubes” or “help me fish stuff out of the liquid nitrogen freezers”, not “please run my 3 day assay for me”.

      2. H.C.*

        Another possibility might be an overreaction to JustATech’s org being caught in a bind when there was no one available to do Task X when it was critically needed, thus the decree to x-train of every task (which frankly sounds Sisphyean esp with employees joining/leaving and tasks being added/modified/eliminated due to any number of factors.)

        1. JustaTech*

          That did actually happen – there were only a few people who knew how to run the Thingy that only got used like twice a year, and some of them quit and some of them got laid off and oh crap, who is going to run the Thingy?
          We ended up having to have one of the people who quit come back at consultant rates to teach the remaining people how to use the Thingy. (He had moved into a completely different field so was happy to do it.)

          Now several people know how to run the Thingy.

    3. Beach Read*

      It really depends —- how good is your company at advance planning? I’ve worked at companies where that would definitely be A Sign, because we were good at planning ahead and could line things up that way. But my current company? No effing way. The people deciding on the cross training would have no knowledge of or input into any kind of potential layoff – there’s just a lot of “left hand doens’t know what the right hand is doing” around here.

      So, it could be a thing, but maybe not.

      1. JustaTech*

        Hahahahaha.
        But also, we’re going down the tubes.

        So it might be a bit of “it’s *fine*, everything is *fine*”.

  79. I strive to Excel*

    What’s the silliest/most absurd waste of time you’ve had at work?

    Today, by my estimate, we’ve spent about 6 hour and counting of 3 different people’s time, including both the owner’s and the COO’s, figuring out a price variance that is not likely to be more than $150 total. We’ve just hit email loop #4.

    1. Busy Middle Manager*

      We have a lot of old system improvement tickets in the system that aren’t urgent or repeat issues. Sometimes you forget why you even put one in and need to re-research the issue. Sometimes a big mistake happens and then never happens again

      Waste of time = manager wants an impromptu sit down on some old tickets. You say you don’t remember or know why it was a big deal and how common the problem was and ask for time to research. Instead you spend half an hour talking about what it must have been for, why it must’ve been a big deal, why it’s not a big deal, why don’t you remember it, why you should remember it (as if I can control that), that sort of speculation. Can spend half an hour talking about something to get nowhere.

    2. Shiver me timbers*

      Waiting an hour for my manager to come to lock up the store because we didn’t have a key. It wasn’t our fault!
      I laid down on the lobby bench and read AAM while eating croutons

    3. Tiger Shark*

      As a third party auctioneer, after a client who was the sole business owner/operator passed away, having a weeks back and forth with a customer who bought services to that business that were worth $200 and wanted a refund for the $200 since the services could no longer be fulfilled. Wanting a refund is fine except I’m trying to explain that she only paid $15 for it so we can only refund that amount otherwise we’d just be giving her $200 of our own money. She wasn’t getting it and I ended up quitting (not because of that) and just didn’t pass this exchange onto anyone else as not to burden my colleagues, and hoping she’d just let the $15 go.

    4. Irish Teacher.*

      A mandatory talk, after school hours, about maintaining good work-life balance. Yes, they literally kept us working late to talk about good work-life balance! (We are required to do a certain number of what are called “Croke Park hours,” which are basically unpaid hours, but yeah, using them for a talk on maintaining work-life balance really added insult to injury.)

    5. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Doing mandatory compliance training (two hours of videos and assessments) twice in three weeks because my first day was mid-December. Compliance was part of onboarding and needed to be done once a year, and that was pegged to the calendar year and had to be completed by the end of January. Two of the videos let you take the assessment without watching the whole thing and – big shock! – I passed them on the first try. I had to sit through the others. One advantage of remote work: I set up my work laptop to play the videos and used my personal laptop to do other stuff.

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        Annual compliance training when you’ve been working in the company (same role, two different locations) for 18 years without a promotion. The first 10 years I took notes of the courses on paper. After my transfer to the second location, I began taking screen shots of the training slides (and saving in word documents with the date) so I just had to skip quickly thru the slides and take the test at the end.

        Multiple years, identical training and tests. One class had a change in what to do with sensitive documents when the building was evacuated, but the test did not reflect the change! I sent an email to the security team (with the screenshots), but didn’t receive a response. The following year it was the same updated material and not updated test. Didn’t bother forwarding it a second time. Don’t know if it’s still contradicting, I retired the following year.

    6. RussianInTexas*

      3 weeks of arguing over 3 cases of product, who is responsible for the damages, the company I work for, that loaded the case (along with the others) on the truck, the trucking company, the customer who hired the trucking company (technically the trucking company, and the customer supposed to place the claim).
      Back and forth for 3 weeks.
      Total cost of the damaged cases? $21.

    7. Seashell*

      A monthly training session that lasts 30-60 minutes and includes maybe 5 minutes of things that are relevant to my job.

    8. Coffee Snob/Knob*

      My partner has been caught in this loop of an entire business unit, developers, and stakeholders, all agreeing on a course of action (which in itself is very difficult), generating business requirements and writing a proposal, only for the regional head thinking that the “requirements are not to his liking”. 4 times so far. That’s 20 people’s full time job, plus countless hours of meetings with all other stakeholders. No one seems to understand what the regional head wants, and neither does he. And then the he asks, why are the requirements not finalized yet, the deadline is approaching.

  80. captain safetypants*

    Why, when you’re negotiating salary, do hiring managers or HR say they want to start you out in the middle (or the bottom, in the case of one of my former managers) of the range so you “have room to grow?” I mean, yeah, if you are at the top of the range you won’t get any raises until you get a promotion, but you’ll still end up with more money than if you started lower and had to work up to it. I don’t understand how this is supposed to be a justification.

    1. ferrina*

      Yeah, that’s a ridiculous justification that only works out for the company. They pay you less, then when they give you the pay increase it serves as retention for them. It doesn’t work out for the worker.

      Though on the flip side, I’ve seen a lot of people say “I don’t mind starting on the higher end and not getting a raise for a few years”, then get very miffed about not getting a raise for a few years.

    2. Bast*

      Because only a unicorn will get the top of the range and they don’t want to say that, so they throw out that excuse.

    3. Filosofickle*

      Sure, it’s a justification. Most companies don’t like to give the high number to anyone because they don’t want to pay it. You’re correct that financially an employee comes out ahead by starting higher.

      But in their defense, people aren’t rational. They resent not getting raises and become unhappy or unmotivated or leave because of it. So, even though people believe they’d be okay starting high and staying at that salary, there’s a good chance they won’t feel the same way after a few years of no increase. Beyond the salary savings, the company may actually be better off (morale-wise) finding someone who is happy with a lower number because that employee has an upward path and can receive regular, monetary recognition of their progress and contributions. The one that doesn’t is likely to feel less valued, regardless what they tell themselves about the math. (None of this negates that all the advantages still go to the company! You’re right about that.)

    4. Miracle*

      The salary range is the entire range of that position ever. The highest level on the pay scale is for people with experience in the job at that company for several years. Top and peak performers who have a track record in that exact position.

    5. Ginger Cat Lady*

      They should post the range at what someone might *realistically* be hired at now. Not the salary they might, if they’re super lucky and have 20 years of “exceeds expectations” annual reviews under their belt, get someday.

      1. STEM Admin*

        That sounds like it would be the solution, doesn’t it? We have (huge) public pay ranges that we have no control over besides correctly choosing a job title. When we hire, the offer is going to be between baseline and midpoint. That’s the most we’re allowed to budget for a fictional employee. The last few postings have explicitly listed the hiring range (though the full range is still automatically added to the posts). Still got all sorts of applications from people who already made more than the hiring range. People don’t understand how that works or think they are so special we’ll make an exception.

  81. Office coverage question*

    I have a situation where employees have hybrid schedules, but somebody needs to be in the office. The office coverage is not the largest part of anyone’s job, but it does matter. We’ve got a rotating schedule so someone is there every day. The problem is that we’re having a lot of days where illness and personal emergencies take out the scheduled person and then nobody is there.

    If we change the schedule to have two people in every day so there’s a backup, we’d basically be nearly abolishing any WFH for some employees who value it. Not great.

    And I’ve never thought it was reasonable to expect someone to pivot into the office without notice. If I’m planning to WFH today, maybe I have nothing to wear because it’s also laundry day, I haven’t packed a lunch because I was going to cook something, I let spouse take the car because his is in the shop and so I have no transportation, the dog is at home with me and can’t be left alone, the cable guy is coming this afternoon, I’m expecting delivery of an important package I have to sign for–none of this would prevent me from having a perfectly functional and productive WFH day, but it’s all a problem if I’m suddenly told I have to go in to the office today. So I’ve been trying not to do that to people.

    Right now we’re on a basis of “if you were supposed to have the office and you call out, notify the others and someone else will come in if they can,” but a combination of some people calling out a lot and others being unavailable to come in a lot is resulting in many days when nobody’s there.

    If anyone else has experienced similar challenges with a small team, how do you handle it? What do you think is reasonable to expect from people?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      What happens if no one can go in?

      I don’t know if it’s reasonable, but I always think the boss should be the one to come in if they can’t find coverage. If people are routinely calling out, then I would get to the bottom of that, i.e. are the absences legit and you just need to hire more people because the schedule can’t support such a lean team? Are people calling out because they hate being in the office, so it’s worth examining your roles and what their relationship to the office should be? etc.

      I’d also consider setting up a formal back-up system, i.e. Person A is in office on Monday and the designated back-up on Wednesdays. Being “on call” is annoying until 9am or whatever the start time is, but at least you would know to start your day with the possibility that you’re going in and thus make sure laundry is done / lunch is made / car is available / whatever.

    2. Balanceofthemis*

      I think Caramel & Cheddar is right, having a backup person on call just in case might be the best solution, at least temporarily. Emergencies and illnesses happen, and for a business to be prepared for that, they need redundancies.

      Conversely, is it always the same people calling out when it’s their in office day? If it seems pretty random, then ok. But if you’re seeing a pattern, where it seems the same people always have an excuse as to why they can’t come in, that’s something that needs to be addressed separately.

    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      As someone who has worked on call for 25 years…if people know they might have to pivot, it’s a reasonable thing to expect. Lots of people have last minute pivots are part of their job duties. Is it fun? Nope. Can it work? Yes!
      You learn to do things differently. To not wait until the very last thing you can wear before doing laundry. To fill the gas tank before the light goes on, etc.
      If someone calls out last minute, someone is going to have to make a last minute change. So either you designate someone to be on call as a backup (you could rotate on call on a weekly basis instead of daily), or as the boss, you go in yourself.

  82. Beach Read*

    Gut check / similar experiences / hair pats needed please :)

    About a month ago, I rejected a job offer because TL;DR I had too much going on personally, including a potentially big medical issue that was unclear at the time. The job offer was to work with a former boss of mine, so we’ve been in touch for the couple years since he & I worked together. (Aside: I really wanted to take the job, but the personal things were just too much, I was overwhelmed with life, and felt better saying no.) Since then, things are more stable, so I decided to take a chance and let my former boss know I’m free again and would love to be considered if they still haven’t found someone for the role.

    He & I have been texting, and we spoke twice since I sent the note … he seems to be considering me again, even though he has another strong candidate in the loop.

    Stupid move? I’m feeling both optimistic and stupid having done this. I guess time will tell, but I’m curious if anyone has ever experienced this on either side, and how it worked out?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      What is giving you pause here? You have the benefit of your old boss knowing you and he’s been in regular touch with you, so it doesn’t sound like there’s any major concern from his end.

      That there’s another candidate in the loop is really only an artefact of the fact that you already declined previously and he had to move forward. If he ends up going with that candidate, then you’re no worse off than you were when you declined the job the first time and you can continue to keep in touch re: future opportunities. If he goes with you, then that’s great!

      1. Beach Read*

        Thank you! What’s giving me pause, in short, is my ego. I know, I know. But it feels weird, and I’m generally kind of awkward so IDK how weird this is in reality, if that makes sense. And I’ve done a lot of hiring in current & previous roles, so I’ve been trying to consider how I’d feel about this if it happened on a job I was a hiring manager for. Anyway, thank you for listening!

    2. Jules the First*

      I am very happily seven years into the job I said no to the first time they offered it. I was burned out and tired and they had no idea the magnitude of the job they were asking me to do (I have quadrupled the size of the team while the headcount of the company has only doubled), and I had other offers that paid better, so I took those. Six months later I knew it was the wrong call so let them know I was on the market again. They had me come in and do another couple of interviews before offering me the job and my first week felt like coming home. I will, much to my surprise, very likely retire from this job in 20-odd years.

      1. Beach Read*

        I love that story! Go, you :) Were there a lot of questions about why you said no, and why you changed your mind? I fear it makes me sound flaky.

        1. Jules the First*

          They did ask why I’d changed my mind, but I explained that there had been other circumstances that had an influence when I first considered the job and that those were no longer factors and that seemed to reassure them. If anything, it helped that I’d had six months to experiment and decide that actually this was the job I wanted (and worked in my favour on their side too because they’d spent six months exploring the market and were now confident that I was the right candidate for them)

  83. Questions*

    How many questions should I be asking at work? I have been criticized for ‘not asking enough questions’. When I ask my supervisor for examples of questions he is expecting me to ask, he says he can’t think of any. I’m not new to my field, and I ask questions as they occur to me. What can I do differently?

    2. Angstrom*

      A couple of possibilities:
      – You’re seen as not understanding something(s) you could have asked about. Have you made mistakes because you didn’t understand something clearly and didn’t ask for clarification?
      – You’re seen as not interested or involved in discussions where your participation is appropriate.

    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Have you made mistakes trying to figure it out yourself? Do you focus on your own little corner of the work and fail to see or ask about the big picture? Do you sit back and listen in meetings instead of actively participating?

    4. shrambo*

      It sounds like “not asking enough questions” is a stand-in for something else that’s bothering him, but he doesn’t know how to articulate. If it was a serious criticism and not just an offhand comment, I think it be worth bringing it up again with him, trying to get to the bottom of his concern, and finding ways to address the real issue. Is it that he can’t tell if you are grasping a concept? You could find other ways to communicate your understanding, like saying “Yeah, I’m familiar with how to do Z, first I do Y and then I do Z”, instead of (for instance) just nodding and saying yes.

  84. Jay (no, the other one)*

    Doing mandatory compliance training (two hours of videos and assessments) twice in three weeks because my first day was mid-December. Compliance was part of onboarding and needed to be done once a year, and that was pegged to the calendar year and had to be completed by the end of January. Two of the videos let you take the assessment without watching the whole thing and – big shock! – I passed them on the first try. I had to sit through the others. One advantage of remote work: I set up my work laptop to play the videos and used my personal laptop to do other stuff.

  85. Hildegard the Magnificent*

    A loved one recently quit their job due to a pretty toxic work environment. They had already been applying to jobs for a month or two with no success. They are continuing to apply to jobs in their field while working a retail job to earn enough to cover expenses.

    I know they are applying to positions that are a step up from their previous job, which seems logical given that it’s normal to leave a job in order to advance (they had been at the previous job for several years). But given that they haven’t been getting offers, or even interviews, and given that it gets harder and harder to get offers when you’re unemployed, I’m wondering how long they should continue to apply to these “step-up” positions before applying for positions that are in the field but perhaps not at the desired level of seniority.

    1. Balanceofthemis*

      I’m in the same boat actually, left a toxic job, took a retail job to make ends meet. The toxic job was a step up from the previous job, so I’ve been looking for both jobs that are lateral from the toxic job and jobs that are lateral from the previous job.

      I can only speak from experience in my niche field, but competition is fierce right now, I would recommend applying for lateral moves. But that’s just me.

    2. Ginger Cat Lady*

      It’s much easier to find a step up job when currently working in the field. I wouldn’t advise her to stop applying for step-up jobs, but I would encourage her to add lateral jobs to her job search.

    3. Rage*

      If they are not getting interviews, they might need to fine-tune their resume and cover letter.

  86. Ranita*

    How can you know when to give up on a career path based off an unproductive job search?

    I moved to California a while ago ago, was switching careers and had trouble finding work, finally got a temp job that turned permanent. I was with that company for about 7 years, eventually in the role of a product manager. I got laid off last summer and have been looking for new jobs as a product manager, with no success (hundreds of applications, only a few interviews, just one progressing to final stages that I ultimately didn’t get). I am worried that the experience I have, which I thought would qualify me for a PM position, just isn’t good enough to get a job, even entry level.

    So now I am thinking that maybe it is time to abandon ship and change careers again (going back to my original career is not an option at all). How can I know if it is just a tough job market, or if I need to switch and get qualifications in some other job? I am thinking maybe accounting, which I am sure I would be good at and hopefully it is a bit easier to break into at an entry level

    1. Balanceofthemis*

      It is a tough job market. A lot of people are spending a year+ unemployed or underemployed. The big news was about layoffs in tech and banking, but the current economic situation is having ripple effects even in industries that aren’t doing mass layoffs. A lot of industries that just a couple of years ago were willing to train people, or take chances on workers with less experience, are back to demanding perfect candidates who check all the boxes.

      It doesn’t help when applying that you may be up against people with 10 or more years of experience for entry level roles, because people need to survive.

      All this is me saying, I wouldn’t give up, especially if you liked the work and the field. But there is no harm in branching out and seeing what else you might be qualified for in the meantime.

    2. shrambo*

      This is a situation where asking your network of industry contacts about the job market could be useful. Since you recently moved into the area, you can also look for local professional organizations and events where you can make polite small talk, get to know other people’s careers, and learn about the state of the industry.

    3. Student*

      My experience has been that accounting is not easy to break into. The jobs that don’t require a degree (e.g., accounting clerks) are only hiring experienced people. These jobs are becoming more automated so fewer people are needed. Entry-level in public accounting means CPA-eligible (BA/150 units, and 24/24 business/accounting units). It’s an in-demand field, but not one to break into without the education.

      California has the highest unemployment in the country, so it really is a tough job market.

  87. Billy*

    Through a convoluted series of events a close friend and I transferred from one department to another in our large (>5000 employees at our location). Both of us were managers in our previous department. Now I am a manager and he is an individual contributor. He does not report directly to me.

    Today we had manager alignment meetings to discuss
    where our teams are performing and what they are tracking to for end of year review. He is not doing well and is on track for a below expectations rating. I have nothing but respect for his manager and she shared plenty of data to support this.

    I clearly cannot tell him any of this. But what advice does anyone have if he asks for my advice?

    1. Bitte Meddler*

      Direct him back to his manager and tell him to set up a meeting with her on what he can do to bridge the gap. Like, not in a mean way, but in a fact-finding, “It sucks to get a low rating and *of course* you want to do whatever you can to bring that back up to your usual standards,” way.

      If he already has that info, then it’s OK to brainstorm with him on ways to bring his work quality / quantity up, or to just encourage him from the sidelines (“I know you; you’ve got this!”).

  88. 164571*

    If I get asked, in an interview, why I’m looking to leave my current job, what’s a good answer? “I was finding it difficult to supervise my Grandboss’ child”? (My current company is well known in the area, by part of the family name.) “I started having physical problems doing that work”? (I don’t want to create doubt that I can do the job I’m applying for; this is a specific type of physical work, and it’s only marginally true.) The painfully generic “I’m interested in doing something new”? Something I’m not thinking of?

    1. I Love the Olympics*

      The duties of the job are changing/have changed and are taking my focus/time/priorities away from the things I love about my job.

    2. JustaTech*

      “I’m interested in something new” doesn’t have to be generic, especially if you can point to a specific thing at the job you’re applying to that you would be interested in doing/learning.

      1. 164571*

        That’s a good point, thank you.

        The supervising the son thing isn’t the only Thing about this job, but it’s indicative of the types of problems I’m having. It’s a shame, I love the work itself, but this is the best place to do it in this geographical area, where I want to stay at the moment. Sigh.

    3. Kay*

      The dynamics of the role changed from what I was originally hired for.

      With this question you absolutely must make sure that whatever it is that the new job is hiring for is not something you claim is leading you away from the job (aka physical work, something new if it is the same type of work, etc.). I don’t know how many times I’ve had to pass over people, who I imagine were escaping from awful bosses, because they told me they were leaving for something “different” (but explained their previous role as exactly as what we were hiring for), “because there was no room for advancement” (there wasn’t in this role either and it was stated in the ad), “they were looking for a new challenge” (no new challenge here! just straight up X job as described, same as what you listed on your resume!). Think this through before your interview. It can be as easy as “They hired me to be a marketing assistant with an opportunity to transition into management but they eventually had me doing 75% unrelated admin work in the HR department (that admin work being managing owner’s kid) and I’m really excited about this opportunity with you because you are looking for a marketing assistant who would like to become a marketing manager! Or whatever else might fit.

  89. StrayMom*

    I want to give a shout out to a prior commentator who said, in response to an email from Someone Very Important that was meant for just one or two people but cut through a wide swath, “using a machine gun instead of a sniper rifle”….I stole that after a client had sent an email to our team, his team, his partner’s team, stating that we had earned an “F” in moving a project forward. I know I’m grumpy as I give less “effs” as I get older, but after I learned that email was not meant for our team, but the SVI’s internal team, I gave that retort and got a chuckle. Someday, I will wear purple…..

  90. Ali*

    I have a quick question re: networking/informational interviews. I am currently looking for new opportunities as I’ve been unemployed for 2ish years while also exploring new career pathways. When I look at networking templates, they all start off with mentioning your current role (which I obviously don’t have, other than my volunteer role). My question is, do I omit that part or do I mention it in passing, and if so, how? Thanks!

    1. shrambo*

      Yes, it gives people a sense of your background and helps them get to know you. You don’t have to linger on it, and you can move on quickly to talking about the future: “I’m currently a [your job], but I’m planning on making a career change to [relevant industry] and have been preparing for that by doing informational interviews and doing X volunteering work.”

      1. Ali*

        Thanks for the reply! Because I’m unemployed, I’m not sure how to reply with the beginning of your template but will consider it for future connections.

    2. Bitte Meddler*

      Since you’re currently unemployed, you can say, “I’ve been a [job role / job title] for X-years, but I’m interested in exploring other career pathways.”

      Be prepared to answer what other pathways you’re interested in and why, because that will be a natural follow-up question for the other person. :-)

  91. rob*

    a bit of a silly question that may have been asked, but i’ve been looking for a job and haven’t gotten a lot of bites lately. it’s kind of a demoralizing experience. do you have any tips on not letting the morale get to me?

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      It is so hard, isn’t it? I try to emotionally move on as soon as I apply to each place. Almost once point of forgetting I did it. I also treat myself as much as possible. It helps me to stay involved in my community through volunteering or the like. But remember to separate each job so you don’t tell yourself things like, “no one wants me” or “I keep getting rejected”. Compartmentalize in that way. Keep going, Rob!

    2. Chili Cheese Fries*

      I’m a writer and I used to publish creative writing. One of my teachers told me to make it as a writer (which involves a _lot_ of rejection) you just had to get excited by rejections, because it still meant you were getting your work out there. He told us to keep a shoe box of all our rejection slips and be proud of how many we had.

      As a writer, this actually really worked for me to make rejection less painful. It’s a little harder, but I try to do with this with my corporate job searches as well. I keep a spreadsheet of all the jobs I’ve applied to. I also try to gamify it by setting goals for myself (10 applications this week, for example).

  92. Green Mug*

    I’m looking for stories about how people made that first step from employee to manager/leadership. What kind of skills and experience did you have that helped you succeed? Was it a natural progression because you were strong in your job? And… do you regret taking on the extra responsibility?

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      What a great question! It may be late on this site to get much commentary on this today. If you don’t, you should def post again next Friday.

    2. Slinky*

      I had progressively responsible leadership experience, starting with project management to leading a team, so management was a logical next step. For me, the most important skills I had to succeed all related to working with people, especially diplomacy, communication, ability to navigate organizational politics, and a genuine interest in the people I was managing.

      I’d be lying if I said I never regretting taking on the additional responsibility. Management is hard. You’re seeing everyone in their worst moments and you’re the one they’re asking to fix it. But overall, I’m glad I made the move.

  93. Rain*

    What is your most useful tip on communication at work?

    (Not looking for operational things like “proofread your email”; more philosophical approaches and actual phrasing examples.)

    I’m posting in this thread since my question is really specific to office/work situations, but happy to get ideas that are good for business & personal settings.

    Thank you

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      This might not be exactly what you’re looking for but I say it is to assume positive intent. Try not to read into tone or semantics too much. If someone asks, “why did you do that?”, assume they just want to know and not that they’re accusing you of something, for example. We get to work with so many people from all walks of life and it can get too easy to make negative assumptions. Make positive ones instead.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Never bury the lede.

      Whether you are asking a question, answering one, or trying to motivate action, really think about what points are most pertinent and useful, and get them up front, uncluttered.

      Giving enough context to be clear without drowning in too much detail takes practice, but it’s a skill worth learning.

    3. Rick Tq*

      Make it easy to find key information. Your first paragraph should be the question, answer, or a summary of the information in the body of the e-email.

      If you are answering questions in line, copy the entire exchange to the TOP of the email, don’t say ‘see answers below’ and force your reader to search.

      Make the subject line relevant to the content, don’t perpetual replies to a subject that should have been abandoned 5 replies back.

    4. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Take the extra 10 seconds and define your acronyms the first time you use them.

    5. Goldie*

      Build relationships with the people you work with so that you have something to work with

  94. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Very late to post this, but in case anyone sees… I’d asked for some advice last week about training staff who are struggling with the “figure it out” skill. Have started implementing some of what was suggested, and so far so good. I have also created and distributed a training client in our software. I have limited authority to assign practice, but the opportunity is there. I gave it to everyone on the team regardless of experience as well.

    Thanks for the ideas.

    1. The Unionizer Bunny*

      I posted a second reply for you detailing a couple of methods for training them in recognition of essential form elements (regardless of layout) and how to seize the initiative in looking things up on their own, but it looks like that never made it through Cloudflare – if in-person physical exercises are within your authority to teach, or you find them to be more enthusiastic about non-work topics, let me know and I’ll type those up again – one was a paper-based method and the other involved showing them the relevance of research to their own interests (which presumably include accounting).

  95. Mimmy*

    This is a long shot, but I’m looking for readers in the digital accessibility field, or at least who are very familiar with it.

    Disclaimer: I know I’ve asked questions about this before, but I’m not having any luck locating my specific Open Thread posts.

    I’ve written in these threads several times about my interest in digital accessibility. Although I plan on staying at my job for a while longer, I also want to get involved in digital accessibility, particularly accessible course materials in postsecondary education. I’ve mentioned before that I have been thinking about doing some consulting in this area eventually.

    How much of a learning curve am I looking at? I already have some experience with assistive technology, basic knowledge of accessibility guidelines (document accessibility, WCAG) and a little bit about using the built-in accessibility checker in Microsoft Office. What I don’t have experience with is PDFs and document remediation.

    Lastly, although I have solid computer skills, I do not have an IT background. So this might be too big of a leap for me.

    1. AccessibilityIsRelative*

      Be aware that the standards on their own are not sufficient for many people. Just like a large number of physical accommodations are designed for folks using motorized wheelchairs and are often problematic for others, many digital requirements assume screen readers for visual impairments and do not take into account things like non-default system settings for screen resolution or larger minimum font sizes for browsers (to name two).

      Good luck!

      1. Mimmy*

        That’s a very interesting point! I’m visually impaired myself and I use ZoomText and/or the built-in accessibility settings at work and home. While taking a couple of LinkedIn Learning courses on MS Word and PowerPoint at home, I noticed that the dropdown menus in some of the formatting tabs obscured my document; thus, I couldn’t preview the formatting and effects I was playing with. I’m sure you were referring to website design standards, but I think the examples you mentioned can apply to working with documents too.

        Creating accessible environments definitely requires a balance. Input from people with disabilities is also important.

  96. Isabel Archer*

    Contract management professionals in the US, can you please help me? I’m considering a career change from project management to contract management, and I could really use some insider information to factor into my decision making process. So:

    1. Do you have a NCMA certification or similar credential?
    2. If you do, has it made a difference in your job opportunities, career growth, and income?
    3. If you don’t, is it because you don’t feel having a certification is worth it or necessary?
    4. Do you recommend a broad certification vs one focused on either commercial or federal contract management?

    Thank you!!!

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