open thread – August 30, 2024

by Alison Green on August 30, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 1,077 comments }

{ 1,077 comments… read them below }

  1. should i apply?*

    What to look out for before taking a contract position? I’m an engineer, who previously has only worked as a direct hire. I took some time off from working (~1 yr) , and am now trying to find a full time role. I’ve also noticed that the job marketed has softened for engineers in my area. I’m actively applying for roles, but the only time I’m hearing from recruiters is for contract positions, most commonly 12 month.

    I’ve mostly ignored the contract work so far, based on my understanding that there is usually limited to no benefits. I did talk to one recruiter about a contract role that sounded interesting, but I’m starting to second guess. I got a quick call where he asked me to confirm my pay rate, and that I was ok with it being a contract. Then he sent me an email asking me to commit to the pay / job in writing and but sent a completely different job description than the one we had originally talked about. When I emailed back about the job description, he just said they were hiring for both. If self very sales tactic like, like they were trying to get me to commit to the job / pay before I knew any details.

    Asking those with experience working contract positions (not just freelance projects)
    – Is it common to agree to the pay rate before interviewing?
    – I’m a bit worried about a bait and switch, where I agree to one job description and then end up with a different role – Is this common?
    – Just general feed back about what it’s like to work contract roles, especially in tech.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’ve done contract work as a software engineer twice. They were both pitched as contract-to-permanent (6 or 12 months). One turned permanent, the other did not.

      The pay rate up front discussion is not uncommon, especially if there’s a contracting/placement company involved. They’ve already got a deal with the company where you’ll be working and need to stay under that ceiling.

    2. Dandylions*

      This varies wildly by company IME.

      I’m in biotech, we routinely hire contractors on permanently. Never bait and switch and yes sadly there are no benefits. The pay is also usually less since the contracting for the wormer since the contracting agency takes such a huge cut. We pay something like $60/hr for a $30/hr role when new hires wre oaid closer to $39/hr.

      I’ve also worked for companies that don’t hire on permanently and just keep extending contractors and have definitely bait and switched. Usually by announcing a “re-org” and moving all the contractors somewhere.

      I’m hoping after th election the US job market will improve some. It’s a hot mess right now. I think everyone is in “waiting and see ” mode while still posting positions in case a “unicorn” comes around.

    3. Somehow I Manage*

      I think this seems a little odd. Given that you’ve been presented with two different job descriptions, it is really difficult to make a commitment. This all seems a little odd, so proceed with caution at the very least.

      I’m sure you’ve considered this when talking about pay rate, but with no benefits, you’re also subject to taxes, so make sure you’re being paid enough to cover those taxes so you’re clearing what you need.

      1. Carol the happy*

        Yes. My husband was a white coated “Lab Rat” doing contract through a temp company. The company was the employer, and there were a few benefits. High- deductible high copay insurance, (but no self-employment tax or paperwork.) He made around 75k per year with them. Companies were allowed to poach them with a huge fee, and after 1-2 years they could be hired with no poaching fee.

        The temp workers got assigned to new teams occasionally, and he stayed with them 4 years- it was cheaper than post-grad prices for classes he needed.
        He occasionally got bait/switched, but several companies were able to give amazing references.
        (One funny thing- a place where he got an odd letter of apology; seems some woman was groping the men in the clean room- but he actually wore disposable briefs when he had to be there suited up for hours- and he hadn’t even noticed.
        I laughed like a hyena on meth- he was retroactively upset that he hadn’t noticed his butt was being fondled- and PINCHED! but the episodes were all on the security videos.)

        1. Carol the happy*

          I forgot the bit about different companies/different employment types- One company had everyone in a big meeting room, both the real hires and the contractors.

          Husband didn’t realize, so he screwed up his taxes badly at the outset. They had said “You work for us”, so he didn’t realize they weren’t taking taxes out. He had filled out what seemed like a standard W-2, and was shocked at the taxes. (Brilliant, but not at accounting.) Lessons learned on all sides. That company now makes sure everybody knows if they’re self-employed, and even has a person in accounting and finance help them with tax forms.

          1. Cj*

            a company can’t classify you as a contractor just because they want to. your husband apparently worked at the same location as the people that were classified as employees. if he used the companies equipment, had to work the hours for company told him to, and generally treated they him like an employee, then he was an employee.

            as other people had posted here, a contractor works for a company that has clients that their employees work for. they are paid by the Contracting Company, who pays the employers share of FICA taxes, withholds the employees taxes, and receives a W-2. Contracting companies may or may not have benefits. like when your husband worked as a lab rat through a temp agency.

            since your husband was told “you work for us”, they apparently weren’t going through a contracting company, and your husband was an employee of the company.

            a freelancer is self-employed, but they work shorter term projects for several different companies, not longer term for one company. they also get to set their own hours, Etc.

            what tax year was this that this happened to your husband? there is a form that you can fill out if he was misclassified as a contractor. as a CPA, I’m kind of ashamed to admit that I don’t know if this has to be done when you file your original return, or if you can do it with an amended return, but I’ve only run into this situation affecting a couple clients during the 40 years I’ve been doing taxes.

    4. Contract Work Advice*

      My experience has been construction (PM/Project Engineering), but some things are pretty standard across…

      1) Agreeing to a pay rate or range isn’t uncommon, because frequently the client company puts a cap on the billing rate they are willing to pay, thus the contracting company puts a cap on what they can pay you.
      2) Bait & Switch can happen, but is usually because someone wasn’t exactly clear on what they needed or things changed during the process.
      3) Even if the contracting company is offering you a W-2, you should price yourself at a point that you can fund your own health insurance (check the Exchange rates for a silver plan) and your own time off (holidays and PTO needs) because very commonly these aren’t included in the role. For 3 weeks vacation and 10 paid holidays, you should up your rate by at least 10 to 12%. Then, as you work, put that extra $ in a savings account to fund days off. (A common mistake is to spend it all as you are paid, then feel like you can’t take time off because you won’t get paid.)
      4) Some client companies treat contractors well and some treat them as second class citizens. You shouldn’t expect to be included in most of the employee stuff (like wellness challenges and internal announcements), but that also helps you not have to get involved in office politics. I liked just being able to focus on my work.
      5) Contracts can be ended prior to the original end date, and usually that happens with no notice and no severance. So, if you start a contracting role, save up a month’s take-home so that if that happens, you have a little buffer while you look.
      6) Always be looking for the next contract role…when you work contract there is a lot more risk and volatility…always have your eye out for the next one.

      1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        This is very good advice, especially the part about saving to “pay” yourself for days off.

      3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        3) Even if the contracting company is offering you a W-2, you should price yourself at a point that you can fund your own health insurance (check the Exchange rates for a silver plan) and your own time off (holidays and PTO needs) because very commonly these aren’t included in the role. For 3 weeks vacation and 10 paid holidays, you should up your rate by at least 10 to 12%. Then, as you work, put that extra $ in a savings account to fund days off. (A common mistake is to spend it all as you are paid, then feel like you can’t take time off because you won’t get paid.)

        And even if they do offer insurance et al, “Consulting”/Contracting is notorious for lousy benefits. Do all the math and legwork up front and price it into what you’re willing to accept.

      4. Yes to Contract work!*

        This is excellent advice. Negotiating pay rate up front is common, as is a clear description of the (project) role, accountabilities, and termination clauses. #3 above is really important. Thing about contract work is that they need to be clear and specific, unlike jobs, where having an employment contract in America is not typical.

        Look for reciprocity in your contract. I always send back the contract for example if they have a one way termination clause (they can give me no or 1 week notice but I must give 4 weeks) is a non starter.

        Always have a fully signed contract with pay rate and terms before you do any work. Always. Be careful about non-competes given they are legally still a thing. Contract work can be short term, so they can impact your employment depending on the market you’re in.

        If you sniff out weird stuff, push back. For example one company insisted I use my own computer etc. (normal) but I would be required to submit it for “their security review” which may mean I would get needed connectivity “and monitoring” software loaded up. Now I needed their VPN but I said I’d have to pre-approve all apps, and would not approve monitoring software on any device I own. That I would be physically with my device at all times, and that would be paid time to do it remotely or otherwise. Did they still want to proceed or would they like to provide their own device to use only on their work? I usually have a separate laptop I use for contract work anyway. Another cost to factor in. In this case, they gave me a laptop with standard setup. Another: I push back on “being assigned to different roles or projects as they wish” type language when they are hiring me for a specific role or project. I usually keep flexible about that sort of thing, but I always insist on a “mutually acceptable in writing” type clarifier (which could be email). I am not agreeing to be a say project manager on X engineering project then being put on data clean up for six months unless I agree to it first.

        I’ve learned this and more because I like contract work for all the reasons in #4. I can focus on doing delivering an excellent work product to them, build business relationships, not get caught up in office drama, and not participate in those awful love-ins oops I mean corporate retreats and team building bs-shops and get on with it.

        1. An Australian In London*

          I declined one contract because it contained a very generic phrase about being able to be redeployed to do any work at any location at any time.

          I pointed out that that would include being rung at 2am and told to clean a manager’s toilet, or babysit their kids for a week.

          “Oh but we’d never use it like that!”
          “Great! Then you’ll have no problem removing that clause, or at least amending it to something suitable like comparable work that I am suited for at usual business locations in usual business hours, right?”
          “Oh no we can’t do that.”

          I did not sign that contract.

      5. Contracting101*

        That sounds great, but I’ve never worked for a company allowed contractors to take vacations. You’re supposed to do that between gigs.

        1. JSPA*

          That’s got to vary by contact length? What’s potentially reasonable for a 4 month contract is untenable for “may extend to 4 years.”

    5. SayHey*

      Re recruiters: are you going to be an employee of theirs, under contract for one of their clients? If so, then they have to take out taxes and may also have benefits. And depending on where you live, and how big their company is (the recruiters co.) they have to offer a min # of paid days sick leave (3-5/yr). ASK about which job you are applying for and what pay is for each. AND how many hours are guaranteed each week for these 12 months. An option to work over holidays is allowed for Fed gov contracts. I have also been in sits: we guarantee you 35-40 hrs/wk as well as we’d like you for 6 hrs/day for 3 days then–oops! We only have 2 days of work at the end of the second day. Have all in writing before you sign. Good luck!

      1. Cj*

        paid leave has gotten better, and will be getting better yet, in Minnesota.

        it started in 2024 that employers are required to give up to 48 hours of sick and safe leave a year. employers can give it to you all at the beginning of the year, or it can be accrued during the year. I think it’s something like 1 hour of leave the cruise for every 30 hours you work, and those hours don’t need to be in the same pay period. You might earn less than 48 hours a year, but that is way better than nothing.

        starting in 2026, Minnesota will have paid Family Leave of up to 12 weeks. it is paid through insurance, not out of tax dollars. the employer pays most of the premium, and a small percentage is withheld from the employees paycheck for their share.

        I don’t remember offhand what $ of your usual wage you get for paid leave. I think it might be something like 50% or so, but it might be less so don’t quote me on that.

        this, of course, applies to people that are employees of Contracting companies, not freelancers.

    6. Contracting101*

      I’ve done a lot of contracting. If it’s through a recruiter the recruiter will typically want to know if you’re okay with what they want to pay for a position. Sometimes they’ll ask you for a desired range, sometimes ask about a specific salary. It is perfectly okay to say I need to know more about the role to know if I’m willing to do it for $x/hour. I’ve almost never had a recruiter push back/not submit me under those circumstances, but it has happened once or twice. In this case the later decision is gdnerally yes or no to the rate, although I have had some recruiters push back and ask what it would take to get to yes and negotiate a bit. However, be aware any negotiation at that point is typically coming out of the agency cut so it’s unlikely to be more than a couple of dollars an hour.

      You may get contacted by multiple agencies for the same job. It is your responsibility to be aware of who you’re bvb being submitted to and make sure there are no double submissions or you will lose the job if offered and likely get blacklisted from the agency and the company hiring. Some agencies will try to withhold the company name; decline to be submitted if they do. Also, it can cause issues if you tell the first recruiter no and a subsequent recruiter yes even if recruiter 2 offers more money. The first recruiter brought the job to your attention, they “own” you and are due a fee if you take the job. Having multiple agencies claim they represent you in any way to the same employer is the kiss of death. In most cases they own that relationship for 6-12 months after the contract ends; they have to okay going perm and get first crack at additional contracts in that timeframe.

      Most contracts do not turn permanent. It does happen – I am 4.5 years into a fulltime hire from what started as a 6 week contract then extended to 3 months, then 4 months followed by a fulltime offer, and eventually 8 months until the agency was willing to let me turn permanent without an additional big fee.

      These days most agencies offer some benefits, but they are lousy. You can get much better healthcare on the exchanges and sick time usually requires jumping through many hoops including a dr note. It is unusual to get any other type of paid time off and most employers expect contractors not take unpaid time off except for emergency. I’ve heard this may be less true for some contracts over a year long, but I’ve never worked one that long so I don’t know firsthand.

      Read your agreement carefully. Some can gave weird or very lopsided clauses. I’ve seen ridiculous non-compete clauses, probkematic IP clauses, and even one place that tried to claim they didn’t have to pay you if they didn’t like your work (and you wouldn’t find out until 6+ weeks in when the first monthly check was due).

      Most commonly I’ve gotten paid weekly when working through an agency and monthly when working directly for the company as a contractor (yes, this can happen even with w2 contracts).

      Good luck!

      1. Cj*

        what do you mean by a W-2 contract? if you get a w-2, you aren’t a contractor, you are an employee.

        1. Contracting101*

          Most contracting is done via employment agencies. You are a temporary w-2 employee of the agency working for their client. There is some 1099 contracting but it us not as common and usually is arranged directly by the company. For 1099 contracting (also called freelancing) you get no benefits at all and have to pay bk other halves of FICA taxes, but you also may be able to deduct some expenses from your taxes. Note there are some agencies that offer a choice between w-2 and 1099, but this is increasingly rare. It is also possible to have a w-2 contract directly with the company but it almost never happens (I was offered one once then they came back to me and told me they had to switch me to 1099 because they didn’t have any existing employees in my state).

    7. Distractable Golem*

      To cover the differential in your taxes, retirement contribution, health care, disability insurance, and “paying yourself” for time off as suggested above, you should ask for an hourly rate that is 100% higher than your employee salary would have worked out to be.

      I learned this the hard way.

      1. ContractorRates*

        You can ask, but no one will pay it. That’s a fallacy I’d always heard before I did any contracting. I’ve never come close to that, and I’ve occasionally even had my pay go up when I’ve switched from contracting to full time. It shouldn’t, but it has. The agency markup is huge and tends to keep rates down.

    8. Spacedog*

      I’ve contracted off and on for 20 years. More. I typically find that the rate is one of the first things to come up and also it’s a little weird when staffing agencies don’t mention it right away.

      But also you shouldn’t have to commit to anything in writing without an offer, regardless of whether full time or contract….

    9. An Australian In London*

      It’s time to talk with an accountant about what your hourly/daily rate needs to be to equal your current effective after-tax after-benefits pay. This is a complex topic, and contractors with years of experience routinely get it wrong.

      You described contracting as having “limited to no benefits”. This is incorrect. It has negative benefits that you must pay yourself to cancel out. Other answers here have touched on many of them: taxes, certainly, but also paid sick leave, paid holiday leave, and paid public holidays. Depending on your country, state, and city laws, you may also lose paid overtime. Certainly, you are losing everything that’s ever been described as a benefit in any job you’ve ever had, including but not limited to training, health insurance and possibly even mileage.

      Your first step is to calculate what it will cost you, in after-tax terms, to provide all of those things to yourself. Then, you need to figure out your before-tax earnings to arrive at that after-tax amount. Then you need that in a daily rate – but remember this is not the annual pre-tax income divided by 365 or even divided by the number of weekdays, but divided by the number of *working* days (deduct all public holidays and any time you want to be able to take off).

      I see veteran contractors of 5+ and even 10+ years who still don’t get that arithmetic right. In countries with socialised medicine, a very rough rule of thumb is that a salaried income often needs to be increased by maybe +30-40% to achieve the same amount of actual take-home pay. In the USA, where you must also fund your own medicine, it will be much higher to break even.

      This is why I say it’s time to talk with an accountant.

      A very close #2 piece of advice I have to all new contractors or business owners is to have three bank accounts: your own personal money, your business money, and money that doesn’t belong to either that the business is holding on behalf of someone else who will come looking for it, i.e. taxes. Accountants often call this a “provisioning” account because it provides for future demands.

      It’s crucial to view the taxes owed as funds held for the government, not as your own or the business’s. Blending business and tax money can lead to a financial mess. Once money is in a provisioning account, it should never be used to cover business shortfalls. Remember, it’s not your money to spend, and using it will always have negative consequences.

      So many friends and associates break this rule and try to keep track of “this much of the money in the account is mine”. Don’t do it — have a separate account for all money that doesn’t belong to you. I cannot legally give anyone financial advice, so I’ll merely note that most demands on provisioning money are known in advance and are not a surprise, so one can lock it up in accounts with notice requirements for withdrawing it without the same liquidity issues as if that were done for the main business trading account. Investing it anywhere where capital is at risk would be unwise – remember, it’s not your money.

      With respect to your specific questions:

      1) It is expected to want to know the rate before anything else is discussed. Hiring managers have a budget, and their recruiters often have incentives to hire under that amount. They usually care about your rate more than whether you can do the job.

      2) In some ways, contracting work is an improvement on salaried work in the USA because you’ll actually have a contract. A good contract should specify the work to be done and, when done well, is attached to a job description. Don’t bother hiring a lawyer to draft you a contract template – rarely, you’ll ever use it. Clients want you to use theirs. You’ll want a lawyer to look these over at first. Maybe also an accountant.

      3) Contract roles in tech often occur when the work is essential and can’t be held hostage to hiring freezes. It’s also common that there is one budget pool for salaries and another for contractors. Be aware that in most places, contractors are second-class citizens, deliberately, because there can be employment and tax law implications for businesses that don’t sufficiently distinguish their employees from their contractors. For example, at my main client, my ID badge is a different colour to those of employees; I don’t get invited to office parties; I can’t eat in their subsidised on-site canteen; I am ineligible for most employee awards or higher duties; I am ineligible for employee training. There can’t be anything that suggests contractors and employees are interchangeable because the tax office reasonably asks what the difference between them is.

      In most countries there are concerns that contract work is less stable than salaried employment. I think that’s rubbish as it takes about the same effort to dismiss them. In any USA jurisdiction with right-to-work both jobs can be lost in a hot minute often for no reason at all. However the stigma is real and it is difficult to qualify for home loans or even a new rental as a contractor because contract income is viewed as precarious.

      So why then would anyone ever be a contractor? Purely for the money. Do it right, cover the costs, lost benefits, and taxes, and one can demand a significant premium.

  2. becca*

    Oh boy, I’m one of the first ones? I just wanted to enter this story into the “Worst Work Retreats” Hall of Fame: https://abcnews.go.com/US/office-retreat-awry-worker-allegedly-stranded-colorado-mountain/story?id=113207945

    For those who don’t want to click blindly: “A worker on an office hiking retreat to a national forest in Colorado had to be rescued after 14 of his colleagues allegedly left him stranded on a 14,230-foot mountain, authorities said.”

    1. juliebulie*

      That is my nightmare. I would be paranoid about something like this. I’m not remotely athletic or even physically fit.
      Glad he got rescued, at least. But I wouldn’t want to see any of those people ever again. I would be very sad to have 14 assholes as coworkers.

      2. People suck*

        There has to be more to this story. Wouldn’t it be awesome if someone involved wrote in to Alison and told us the rest of the story? Did they really abandon their coworker? Was he an awful person? Or did he choose to leave them and go on his own because they were awful? There’s really no excuse for abandoning him but I’d love to hear more about this.

          1. Eli*

            This was something that they had done for a number of years as a fundraiser for World Central Kitchen. They have business partners who also do the fundraiser with them. It’s not some mandatory group activity that they forced everyone into for team building purposes. There’s a lot of bad info going around.

        2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I’m thinking it was just a problem that they thought he was ahead or behind him and no one tried to check until they realized he was gone?

          1. Emma*

            he managed to ping them saying that he was lost, and they told him to go back and find his way down himself…
            two colleagues went back to try to find him at disk but turned around when it got dark. this is so sad. poor guy.

      3. Bitte Meddler*

        There were two groups of hikers: A group that wanted to summit and a group that wanted a easier hike. Apparently the guy who got stranded was between both groups (maybe he started with the summit folks but then changed to the other group?) and so when he wasn’t with Group A when they started back down, Group A said, “Oh, he must be with Group B.” Ditto for Group B when they, too, headed back to base and the guy wasn’t with them.

        There was no malice, just people who weren’t following / didn’t know about basic group hiking rules.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          That’s what I thought–it was a “he’s not here so he must be there” scenario until both groups realized he was–nowhere.

        2. Emma*

          what do you mean there was no malice? the coworkers removed the markers of the trail, and when he sent them his location to ask for help they told him to back and find the trail higher up. it took them 8 hours to alert the rescue team, full well knowing he was up there alone. how is that not malice?

    2. BellaStella*

      I read this and shared it with friends too on yet another reason to hate these retreats that are ‘fun’

    3. FricketyFrack*

      That story is infuriating. That’s a bad team building activity anyway, but were his coworkers actively trying to kill him? Jesus.

        1. FricketyFrack*

          I know! I’m from CO and no one I know would ever leave someone behind like that. I can see if there was a medical emergency and they sent a couple people to get help or something, but the entire group leaving and then taking all the things marking the trail down seems like everyone is either unbelievably stupid or malicious.

          1. becca*

            They didn’t report him missing until 9pm! Which was 8 hours after they first realized he was lost! And FIVE HOURS after a STORM with rain and high winds! There’s so many stupid things that these folks chose to do, but not calling S&R as soon as the weather got bad is one of the worst ones.

          2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

            I don’t think it was the coworkers who took the things. How I understood it was there were other hikers not part of the group that removed items.

    5. J*

      I have been dying to hear Alison’s take on this. At first I assumed it was a younger guy who insisted on summiting when everyone else turned around. but I read somewhere else that he was in his 50s and just got caught between the group that was summiting (fell behind them and no one waited) and the group behind him (who turned around earlier and assumed he was with the summiters).

      What a nightmare, and a terrible idea for a work retreat.

      1. Raisineye*

        AND the summit group took down all of their trail markers as they went down, leaving him without a clear path! I would be LIVID.

    6. Elizabeth*

      I was going to post about this, too! I believe that there are a couple of very awkward conversations that should happen at the office. First, who chose mountain climbing as a team building activity needs to have a real conversation with HR, and then the team members all need to talk about what team building really means.

    7. ursula*

      How ON EARTH was one person left hiking alone, under any circumstances?? Much less for something that was supposed to be a team-building event??? How was it decided that he would go it alone and for what possible reason. Honestly. What a nightmare.

      1. HA2*

        Poor communication. Sounds like they split into two groups, and each group assumed he was with the other one (but instead he had gotten separated from both groups).

        1. Not your typical admin*

          That sounds like what happened. We have 2-3 families we hike with frequently so ages from 9-50. We always put 2 people designated to be at the front, and one of the other moms and I are always at the back, with stops selected to gather everyone and take a break. Unless you actively plan, it’s easy to assume a person is with another part of the group, especially if people are going back a forth between smaller groups of people.

          1. RLC*

            “Unless you actively plan….” says it all. No matter the activity or the environment, failure to plan can end badly. Years of vintage automobile club rallies have taught me the lessons of “slowest cars in the lead”, “preset stops and checkpoints”, and “assigned person last in line to corral stragglers and search for them as needed”. Honestly the safest approach with many groups is to use the same methods as one would for a primary school field trip.

            1. Barnes and Noble Bridge Burner*

              I really wish hiking groups would do that. As a slower hiker, trailing a quarter of a mile the entire hike, then not getting a rest when I’d catch up so demoralized me, I quit going to group hikes. :/

              1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                That sucks, and I’ve been there. Good groups will assign a good hiker to bring up the rear, so nobody gets left, and make sure the slower hikers gets rest breaks.

          2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

            I was once part of a Halloween gathering attended by at least 10 family units which was snacks and fun and then trick or treating in the neighborhood. My smaller TorT group ended up with a whole extra kid — parents with other siblings I guess. I was so glad that we at least scooped him up and brought him back to the party house because I had no idea whose kid he was.

          3. goddessoftransitory*

            My aunt used to do a lot of hiking, and the cardinal rule in her group was: the slowest hikers in front*, and everyone has eyes on the entire group. That way one person doesn’t gradually fall behind and get disoriented.

            *This was a group that had hiked together for years and knew each others’ speeds, not putting a complete beginner in front!

    8. Productivity Pigeon*

      Oh my god.

      That’s messed up in soooo many ways.

      This is when my crisis management training kicks in.

      I’m not working at the moment but when I was, I always, always tried to assume that the worst thing would happen and how we should deal with it.

      Even if it was just a supplier meeting, I would bring up things like “what if essential person get sick? Who do we send instead?”

      I can’t tell you how many times I heard “oh well, *that’s* not gonna happen!”…

      Hiking a 14000ft mountain as a team building activity has SOOO many worst outcomes. Like this one.

      Awful!

    9. WellRed*

      I saw this! Another reason not to do this stuff for team building. Was he not a team player and charged on ahead? Did the team abandon him?

    11. Stuart Foote*

      I think the headlines are a tad misleading…as far as I can tell, the other co-workers turned back and the co-worker who got lost wanted to press on and summit the mountain. So they didn’t exactly leave him behind as the headlines suggested, though they did remove the objects they’d left to mark the trail and it was a very long time before they noticed he was missing.

    13. Miss Buttons*

      I would absolutely refuse to go on a difficult hike like this as a team-building activity. I hope the fool who organized and required this gets sued. At least the company should have to repay local search and rescue teams. That’s a lot of taxpayer money.

      1. becca*

        Search and rescue teams is one of the places where I am happy for my money to go. I don’t want anyone sitting in the woods afraid to call for help because they can’t afford the rescue operation. Health care and S&R are two things we should not be charging people for, any more than we charge people for the fire department when they accidentally set the thanksgiving turkey on fire. And in just about every rescue (or failed rescue), there’s almost always an element of, “Oh, if that person had only done [insert what seems like very basic thing when you’re safe on your couch]” that makes it easy to justify to ourselves passing along the bill. Mother Nature is extremely unforgiving when you make a silly mistake, I think humans should be better than that.

        Don’t get me wrong, I have SO MANY THOUGHTS on this poor guy’s coworkers and all the things they should’ve done differently. I think the company should make a sizable donation to Chaffee County S&R. I don’t think they should be required to pay.

      2. constant_craving*

        As someone who has done a lot of SAR myself, I am really opposed to charging for SAR. All my teammates were too.

        We are there to help. We do not want the search being less successful or more dangerous because someone was afraid to call us for fear of a bill.

    14. OperaArt*

      And then there’s the other bad workplace story from this week, about the Wells Fargo employee in Arizona who clocked in, but was found dead in her cubicle 4 days later. Admittedly, 2 of those days were over the weekend, but there was onsite security. Someone should have found her.

        1. Katydid*

          I was hoping that someone would mention this one too! Sounds like miscommunication on the mountain, but was no one walking through this random office building?? How??

          1. Procedure Publisher*

            I came across a video about it on YouTube from a news outlet. There was a smell in the area that everyone thought was caused by a sewer issue or something like that.

            Full disclosure, I was laid off from Wells Fargo late last year. So I’m not surprise no one found her considering she came in on a Friday when very few people are in office.

            1. Chocolate Teapot*

              I read the Wells Fargo employee story in the UK Guardian newspaper.

              I did think about my own office today as a lot of people were working from home or on holiday so it would be easy to overlook somebody.

    15. HugeTractsofLand*

      I read this and immediately thought of AMA! It’s so crazy to me that a random insurance company chose a 14k+ elevation mountain hike as a bonding retreat. This is exactly why you don’t make it essentially mandatory for people to do extremely physical things on company time. I’m just waiting to find out that the manager is a fitness nut who “didn’t think it’d be a problem.”

      1. I Have RBF*

        Seriously. I’m disabled, I walk with a cane and only have a limited distance I can go on fairly level ground. Even if I could go on hiking trails, I go at about half the speed of an able-bodied person. This type of “team building” is my nightmare. If they pulled it as a surprise, as in herd everyone onto a bus after telling them to wear comfortable walking shoes, then “surprise, you’re hiking up a mountain”, I would be livid.

        1. Vincent Adultman’s assistant*

          This really does NOT sound like a surprise or ad-hoc team building activity as others have said below and in other, better news articles than the one originally linked. It was a group of hikers who are experienced and have done this numerous times and this particular time sounds like a case of “unfortunate circumstances pile on top of each other.” The hiker drifting between the two groups (groups divided by hiking trail difficulty) and then each group thinking he was with someone else. People NOT affiliated with the retreat removing the “breadcrumb” markers. The storms.

          I seriously doubt that you or anyone else on AAM or is going to ever find yourself in this situation

      2. Eli*

        It’s something that a group of employees and many of their business partners do as a fundraising activity for World Central Kitchen. They’ve done it in previous years and from people in the know I don’t have the impression it is forced on anyone – each team member has a donation page, etc.

        1. Vincent Adultman’s assistant*

          It’s a work-related outdoorsy social event so even if nothing had gone wrong: everyone here would already be up in arms about the audacity of it all.

    16. AnonForThisOne*

      I saw this. My first thought was along the lines that these team building things are only supposed to FEEL like they are going to kill you, not actually do it.

    18. AnnieG*

      Even without the hiking, the freezing rain and being left behind by the rest of the group, this activity sucked due to the dawn departure time alone.

    19. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I saw this and was going to post if if someone else hadn’t. Obviously they never heard of the buddy system!

    20. goddessoftransitory*

      I read that! At first I thought that each group thought he was with the other, but…

    21. 1LFTW*

      YES, I’m here to see if anyone was talking about this here! That was such a series of easily preventable fuckups. Scout troops know better, and do better, than what a group of 15 grown-ass adults did to that poor guy.

  3. juliebulie*

    My motivation is in the pooper.
    I look at what I’m supposed to be working on, and my eyes just slide down the screen. I am over it.
    I’m looking for something new, but in the mean time, I really need something to help me at least be able to put my eyes on my work.
    Help? Suggestions?

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      Give yourself grace. Self care. Reducing your overall stress level will improve your executive function.

      1. juliebulie*

        I feel like I give myself too much grace already by being so unproductive. But you are right that I am trying to hard and getting in my own way. Not sure what to do about that in this precise moment, though. Maybe I’ll go for a walk or something.

        Yesterday I cut the grass. That didn’t actually make any difference to my motivation, but at least I got something done.

        1. Socks*

          The tricky part is that sitting around kicking yourself for being unproductive isn’t actually giving yourself grace. You just end up in this horrible space where you’re not getting anything done OR recharging (ask me how I know…)

          For me, personally, timers really help. The ratio of doing stuff/break time varies dramatically (on a good day, it might be 25 min work, 5 min break; on a bad day, it might be 5 and 10). The key is having designated break times really helps me fight the feeling that I “should” be working during those times.

        2. Lyra Belacqua*

          I feel this—but it’s easy to get into a situation where you can’t really work, but also can’t do anything restful or relaxing because you’re thinking of all the work you have to do! Setting a timer and really compartmentalizing does help (like, right now, I’m going to spend 15 minutes looking at this document, and at the end of that time I’m going to stop, even if all I’ve done is stare at it, and go on a ten-minute walk.) Making sure you get enough sleep, food, and water. Also, doing stuff offline—scrolling isn’t actually restful, especially if your job involves looking at a screen. All that said, what helps me most with this is antidepressants and lots of coffee.)

        3. Space Cadet*

          I’ve been telling myself that work is just “something I have to do for a few hours today” and then I can go home and do things I actually want to do. It’s been working, so far.
          And take things day by day.

    2. SansaStark*

      Sometimes it helps me to set a timer for 15 or 20 mins and I only have to do Unpleasant Task for that amount of time. After the timer stops, I can go back to reading AAM or whatever else I’d rather be doing. Sometimes it tricks my brain into getting started on a thing and sometimes I really do go back to whatever non-work thing I was doing before. But at least I got in that 20 minutes of real work.

      1. Reluctant Mezzo*

        Yes, I call that the “Ten Minutes in Hell” system, especially if there’s Ugly Stuff in corners which need cleaning.

    3. Alexandra Beth*

      I know that feeling. I recommend star jumps or a few seconds of jogging on the spot. That gives me just enough energy to look at my work again and hopefully get engaged enough to make it to the end of a task.

    4. Productivity Pigeon*

      Can you plan rewards to do after work? Like booking a massage, getting food from your favorite restaurants, buying that book or game you’ve been wanting ?

      I realize that’s just throwing money at the problem and it might not be possible for you, but it honestly helps me.

      I’m sure there are other rewards you could do that don’t cost a lot.

      But basically, have something you look forward to everyday (or as often as you can) after work.

      Good luck. It sucks to be so demotivated.

    5. Distracted Procrastinator*

      can you listen to an audio book or music that you listen to only when you are working productively? Sort of an audio reward for staying on task.

      When I’m having issues with productivity, I put on headphones and go find instrumental music on a streaming service. (I can’t do lyrics if I’m trying to focus.)

    6. Sanding Desk*

      Do you have a standing desk, (or a pile of books you can stack your computer on)? For me sometimes shifting into standing mode from sitting is enough of a physical cue to help me refocus. It’s a small thing but it’s definitely helped, especially when my work is on the more tedious data entry side.

        1. Sanding Desk*

          Yay! Good luck! For me, I’ve found that if I start my day standing up, drinking coffee, and NOT going on any of my normal time-wasting apps, it’s easier to pretend to be motivated :)

        2. juliebulie*

          That didn’t do much, alas. Periodically I try to work standing up, but there’s something about standing up at the desk that always makes me feel like just walking away. Poo. I’m gonna go putter around a little and see if I can reset myself.

    7. Sleepy Kirby*

      I feel you! I have had a hard time getting motivated and concentrating lately. Sometimes the only thing that motivates me is not wanting to get in trouble!

      I find YouTube videos “work with me” helpful. It’s usually someone else working with a timer in the corner for breaks. Or finding twitch streams for body doubling or working together. It’s sometimes the only thing that helps! If I’m at home, I’ll use FocusMate for a live person to work with.

    8. Cassandra*

      Gamify your tasks so they give you dopamine boosts! I use the Habitica app, and highly recommend it, but I know there are other options out there too. You don’t even have to use all the features, but if you break down your most boring tasks and reward yourself for even little tiny steps, it helps so much!

        1. juliebulie*

          I got one teeny-tiny thing done! Woohoo!!
          Now listening to binaural beats! Two more hours to go!

    10. Bunny Watson*

      I feel you. I’ve been actively avoiding a report that I need to write, but it’s getting down to crunch time. Panic is a great motivator, but I’d still prefer not to function that way. So, one thing that helps me is productive procrastination. Instead of fixating on what I “should” be working on, I look at my to do list and try to cross off some of the smaller things. I do this for a set time like one hour and then go back to my report and see if it flows any easier. Sometimes I just needed to be thinking about something else for awhile instead of beating myself up over not being productive. At least then I’ve gotten a few things accomplished as well.

      Another option is to take a few minutes and really think about all the smaller tasks needed to accomplish the whole. I write these down, and then sometimes I can see an easier place to start so that at least I can get SOME thing going instead of staring at a blank screen. Good luck!

    11. It's me, hi, I'm the comments, it's me*

      Take an attitude of curiosity, not of judgement, to your own actions. Instead of beating yourself up for being unproductive, do some experiments to see what helps you be productive. For me, music can help a lot (some tasks require familiar music, some tasks require music with no words in English, other tasks go better if I’m listening to new to me music), as can choosing a particular task that should take an hour and heading to a coffeeshop to accomplish it. I know that other people (not me!) do better with TV or podcasts on in the background. Some people react really well to the pomodoro (?) method, with strict times and breaks, others really badly! But, basically, if you can frame this as “I need to find the optimal conditions to get work done, so let’s investigate that” instead of “If I beat myself up harder I will be more productive” you’ll probably figure some stuff out that works for you.

    12. Ellis Bell*

      Couple of ideas:
      1) Go for the easy wins first, things that don’t take up much time and will give you a good few ticks on your to do list to build yourself up.
      2) If 1 doesn’t work, try the ‘eat the frog’ approach by doing the hardest thing first.
      3) Try a Pomodoro-ish technique of only working for twenty minutes or so (and try to get as much done in those twenty minutes as possible, like try to beat your previous short work session record), when time is up, take a movement break, like going for a drink or decluttering something.
      4) Doing something super physical can be a good reset if it’s possible to do on your workplace. Go power walking or clear the kitchen up, or clear out the junk cupboard.
      5) Talk to a person. This is why I will always defend the office tea round because you get to just connect with people briefly even if they’re busy, get away from your desk and return to it with a soothing hot beverage. Though of course it’s possible to do most of this without touching a tea bag.
      6) Productivity chart. I call this my “planner”. All my to do list tasks go into the several boxes which make up the time periods in the day. I tick them off as I get them done regardless of whether they’re done on time, but I can give myself double ticks if they ARE done on time, and if I get them done in half the time, I get a star. (I do give generous time allowances because I’m so frequently interrupted). My planner is incredibly beautiful and looks at its best when it’s star spangled. If I only manage to get half the things done, and only single ticks done, I downgrade my time requirements a bit for the next day.

    13. Dandylions*

      Putting the phone down helps a alot with this. When I was at this level of burn out I realized that scrolling at work was a major contributor.

    14. juliebulie*

      Thanks everyone. Less than two hours left today. It hasn’t been great, but I did get a few small things done.

      I did have to give myself some grace when I realized that there was no way I could proceed today on the thing that is most urgent, because I don’t have all the information. Even though it felt “wrong” to work on something else, it’s how I got unstuck.

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        Another thought for you that may resonate depending on what kind of work you do and how your brain works–

        I used to say that I procrastinated in order to create artificial deadline pressure and that I needed that to get things done. I felt guilty for the procrastination even though by any standard measure I’m highly productive. The work was getting done but I was stressed out about this “bad habit”.

        At some point I read an article that completely reframed what I was doing and how my brain works. I am *incubating*, not postponing. My brain knows I have to write that brief/prepare that presentation/do the thing. Everything I do that isn’t doing that thing is still grist for the mill. If I’m walking and listening to a podcast, something I hear may trigger a new idea or a new way of approaching that thing. Working on another task may remind me of something I want to include. Listening to a colleague in a meeting might give me a new nugget.

        With that reframing, when I do sit down (or stand at my desk–I’m better with my desk up, guess I think on my feet!) I dive in and the things that have been swimming around and bumping into each other can gel into something cohesive.

        Another tactic: If you do things that you could work on in a completely different format to switch it up, that may help. Writing things on a whiteboard, making notes with pen on paper (a pen you like and paper you like are important here), talking into an audio recorder–anything other than staring at that screen. Those different physical actions may unleash something new and fresh that’s more exciting to work with. This could be the actual work task, things you don’t want to forget that are disrupting your ability to focus on a bigger task, your shopping list–anything that’s taking up brain space.

        My team is currently reading Your Brain at Work by David Rock, which is full of insights from neuroscience. The scenarios he sets up for the married hetero couple with two kids are pretty believable for me and the ways they get bogged down and fall behind are familiar things I’ve done, like getting sucked into the details of building and tweaking a spreadsheet before establishing the big picture the spreadsheet will support. He then reruns the scene with a few tweaks at points where they recognize they’re about to fall into a typical trap and catch themselves. No blame attaches–it’s not me, it’s my brain, it’s how my brain works. This idea of changing which medium you’re working with comes from that book.

        I just put all of this advice together two days ago. I’d had “prep for that presentation” on my list for two weeks and it was the day before the talk. It was a super brief one, supposed to be only 2-3 minutes. Even so, I’d felt compelled to create slides and I’d saved a copy of an old talk that could serve as a starting point and changed the title slide. Woop woop, progress! And I was supposed to cover progress and challenges in a big policy arena in those 2-3 minutes, which wasn’t the actual topic of the old presentation, it just had some of the info or images I’d want.

        I’d been practicing various ways of opening the remarks when I went for walks. That helps me find my way into how I want to tell the story. So I had some major points in mind. I turned away from the computer and wrote the major points on a sheet of paper, read through them and thought about the order that would flow for the way I speak, and then could put them into a document and add some bullet-point detail below each one. Given that it really was supposed to be short and slides weren’t required, I dropped that task, making it much more manageable and making better use of my time. Done in maybe 20-30 minutes including a practice runthrough for timing.

        If I’d kept going with the slides I would have created something far too long that took too much time and then I’d have to cut it way down or I’d talk far too fast and run over my time trying to work it all in. I’d grabbed the wrong end of the stick and I didn’t even need that particular stick for this task; I’d just defaulted to it.

        Good luck!

        1. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

          Thank you for this story! It has given me a ton of ideas, and I really like the “incubation” framing. Apparently someone asked T S Eliot how he was getting on with the Four Quartets and he said “Oh, almost finished – just have to write the words down” which is a story I love. (See also: my gf is a novelist and once took 6 months to write the first para and 6 months to write the rest of the book).

  4. Justin*

    Sigh.

    The hiring process at my job continues and the final stage is a panel of colleagues. The first one didn’t go very well – I really liked that candidate (and she could still be hired, but chances are lower now), but she seemed to do sort of what a lot of Alison’s advice has warned against. She had “dream job” syndrome and it tripped her up on some important questions.

    I guess my question is – has there ever been a time when you explicitly were clear a job would be your dream and it worked out for you? It seems like even if it is, it almost never goes well.

    But it’s hard to show enthusiasm without overdoing it, so I feel for folks who do this. I’ve done it before.

    (To be clear, it wasn’t just the enthusiasm that was the issue it was that it distracted her from answering certain questions effectively.)

    1. Veruca Salt*

      So she was too enthusiastic and had unrealistic expectations of what the position would actually involve? I’m not familiar with “dream job” syndrome.

      1. Justin*

        I’m saying her enthusiasm for our mission seems to have distracted her from a central job function.

    2. Bast*

      I’m also unclear about what dream job syndrome is — did she express her interest in doing Task A when in reality, Task A is only 10% of the job, and she’ll really be doing more Task B?

      1. Justin*

        Basically that, she couldn’t answer a central question that was really important to the job tasks

    3. M2*

      Honestly I rather have dream job syndrome than have someone who says they want to be X in 2-5 years and X is not at your org/ X is Vice President and they are applying for a Manager (and VP is 10+ years and many steps up) or something like that. People have literally said to me “I want to be Vice President of Llamma Grooming” and we are doing something totally unrelated to that!

      If you feel you need to follow up with the candidate then follow up or if she ends up being the choice but people aren’t sure then do reference checks or continue the search.

      I have also had people tell me it was their dream job, but it wasn’t, it was their dream organization and once hired after a short time started applying to what they actually wanted to do.

      I do think it’s good you are being careful and doing due diligence. Look at the resume are they a job hopper? Do reference checks. I applied for a role and they were clear they would take your references but also might do back channel checks as well.

      I once did the opposite of dream job and said I liked my current role, their recruiter reached out to me, I am interested but want to hear more and was told I did not get the role because it was not my dream. They didn’t say dream, but said they wanted someone who wanted to leave their current role.

      1. WellRed*

        To add to this: is she young and inexperienced in a way that a more experienced applicant will be able to express enthusiasm for the job without being distracted by the dream aspect?

        1. Justin*

          Relatively inexperienced at the central job function, experienced in the industry, but… we need that job function

          1. Justin*

            So yes I think the others should be able to balance it more effectively

            Sad though, I like her a ton

      2. Csethiro Ceredin*

        We had someone say chirpily “I want your jobs!” when asked where she wanted to be in 5 years.

        We were the COO, HR Manager, and a department manager. I wanted to say “ALL our jobs?” but she had already raised several other red flags so we just moved on.

    4. juliebulie*

      I did have a dream job. I knew, going in, that it was my dream job. And it continued being my dream job until I lost it 18 months later in a big RIF and then I was unemployed. I was able to get a new job, but that one was my nightmare job and it was followed by another nightmare job. (But eventually I ended up somewhere good.)

      I think dream jobs can exist if you’re willing to accept that there will be parts of them that aren’t dreamy.

    5. Bike Walk Barb*

      I’ve had two dream jobs and I’m still in the second one. Sure, both brought elements I wasn’t entirely expecting and I had to do things I didn’t love-love doing, but that’s why they call it work.

      The first one was 100% exactly what I had described as my dream job for many years. I had a decent idea of what it would entail, probably should have interviewed a few more people who already held that kind of position to have a better idea of the parts that would be harder for me, but I absolutely don’t regret it.

      It was also great prep for the one I’m in now, which is the one I expect to hold for the foreseeable future. Super lucky that I’m happy, I’m good at it, I have a phenomenal team and support from the organization, I’m not motivated by my money and my decent salary and good benefits are enough.

      I’m sure my enthusiasm for my dream job came across in both interviews. But I’d been on tons of hiring committees from the other side, did my homework on the organizations, could tell a good story about how my experience prepared me for this new challenge, could answer questions with relevant examples and demonstrate I brought unique skills. Dream job didn’t mean I blew off the importance of the actual interview questions.

    6. Cheap ass rolling with it*

      I made the mistake of hiring someone who had a lot of enthusiasm and said “dream job.” They did not have the qualifications and could not be trained for the job.
      I’d be wary they’re using enthusiasm to hide the fact that they’re not qualified.

  5. WeirdChemist*

    For stapler removers, are you supposed to use them from the back folded over part of the stapler, or the front flat part of the staple?

    I’ve always done it from the back part, but I saw a coworker use it from the front and it made me wonder if I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time???

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’ve always used them to pull out from the “top” (front/flat) part of the staple, but I don’t know if it really matters?

    2. MagicEyes*

      It works either way. If you loosen up the back side first, it’s easier to remove the staple from the front without damaging the paper. If you’re in a hurry, it’s quicker to remove it from the front.

    3. Rara Avis*

      If it’s the biting kind, I believe it’s designed to grasp the front and pull it out that way.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Thick stack of paper: from the front. 2 pages stapled together: from the back.

      Just my two cents.

    6. ruthling*

      for the squeeze kind, i always attack the staple from the back. with the flat ones either way works if the staple is not through too many pages.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve always done front-ways, but as long as the staple is removed without shredding the papers, you win. :)

    8. Pocket Mouse*

      Back, then front? The biting kind that curve up to the teeth are somewhat effective at unfolding the folded part of the staple, then it’s easier to remove from the front.

    9. Not A Manager*

      First I use it on the back to loosen the prongs, then on the front to pull out the staple. Otherwise you tear the paper.

    10. Jamie Starr*

      I’ve never even considered doing it from the back. If you do it from the back, do you have to then turn the paper over and remove the staple from the top anyway? If so, that’s an extra step you don’t have if you do it from the front. (Because otherwise, aren’t you pulling the entire staple through the back of the papers?)

      1. Jamie Starr*

        Coming back to add, after reading all these comments about pulling from the front tearing the paper, that I rarely have that issue. Loosening the back then flipping and pulling out the staple from the front just seems like extra work when you can just carefully pull it from the front w/o damaging the paper. :shrug:

    11. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      There’s a way they work better, I think from the back? But whichever way works best for you is The Way.

    12. Corvus Corvidae*

      I always use them on the back of the staple to avoid tearing the paper.

      Side note, I hate the bitey kind so much and only use the one with the handle now. The bitey ones have a tendency to, well, bite me.

    14. Saturday*

      Front! My husband insists this will mess up the papers and you have to do it from the back. I am usually very good at not letting little things bug me, but this one kind of does. If he would just TRY it from the front even once…

    15. Buni*

      With the bitey kind (this is the only way I will ever think of them now, thanks) from the back first minimises rippage.

    16. RagingADHD*

      Depends how tight the staple is, and how many pages are in the stack.

      For a relatively solid stack with just enough “give” to get the teeth under the bar, I’ll go from the front.

      If it’s only 2-3 pages, it might tear, so I’ll loosen the teeth on the back first. And if the stack is so thick that the staple is embedded, I’ll also start from the back.

    18. Yorick*

      I do the back to loosen it up and then the front to get it all the way out. I find just doing the front either might not work or might destroy the paper (which is sometimes ok)

    19. Jshaden*

      For reasons lost to the mists of my dino obsessed secondary schooling, I’ve always called the bitey style staple remover a pterodactyl.

      1. Jshaden*

        Also, pterodactyls are used on the back, then the front if the pages need to be preserved. Front only if removing for shredding, etc.

    20. Bike Walk Barb*

      I have to say I love that you already have 20 replies to this, there’s no overwhelming consensus, and people have actually given this some thought and have logical explanations for why they do what they do.

      Personally, I pull from the flat side because it’s easier to slide the bitey thing’s teeth under that. But if it’s a big fat stack, as others have said, and the bent parts are really dug into the paper I’d loosen them first (or second, after tugging in vain at the flat side).

      One more reason to appreciate electronic documents.

      2. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        I was convinced it was going to start a war! Delighted to see the lively yet pacifist discussions

    21. HBJ*

      Back, then front. Unless it’s a super thick stack (rare for me), pulling from the front alone will just rip the paper.

    22. allathian*

      I always go back then front unless I’m removing the staples to shred the documents. I use violence with the staple remover and don’t have the patience to slowly pull the staple from the front that lets the ends straighten out without ripping the paper, at least on a readonably thick stack.

  6. Case Studies*

    Any copywriters in the group? I’ve been transitioning from content writing to copywriting, but I keep running up against the wall of case studies: I just don’t have access to client data. My clients are happy and give me repeat work, but “We love this, please do it again” is a testimonial, not a case study. A couple of times I’ve requested view-only access to their analytics so I could research more effective approaches, but they always refuse. Any tips, tricks, or work-arounds would be appreciated.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’m a copywriter, and my creative team is constantly running into needing more info than we’re being given. It sounds like these are external clients? If so, it might help to lay out expectations up front – if what you truly want is a case study, then I need x, y and z from you; based on what you’ve given me in the past, I can only do ____.

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        Isn’t that what ChatGPT is for?

        Low-effort, embarrassingly-incompetent sample output? Introduce a few inaccuracies to make sure your clients can’t mistake it for the real thing if they have low standards, or use it for the real thing if they realize ChatGPT isn’t that bad, or maybe just tell ChatGPT to be awful. Show them this as an example of what a creative team could end up with if it doesn’t get more information.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Wait. I think I misunderstood what you’re asking about – you are looking for info to improve your work, not to produce it. Got it. (I write case studies as part of my job, so I was thinking about it that way.)

        I think testimonials are helpful, no? But if you or your clients can produce any kind of metrics on how your pieces performed, that’s helpful, even if you can’t turn into a full blown case study.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Why do you need case studies – in order to land additional clients, or just to get better at your work? If your clients are in the same general line of business, and they think you’d be deliberately or inadvertently spilling their secrets, I totally get their reluctance.

      If it’s just for getting better, start with that. “I want to make sure I’m delivering the best work I can to you. Can we do a quick review of my last 10 pieces, and you tell me which ones were the best, and why? Then I can apply those lessons learned this quarter.” As opposed to “What were the click-through rates for the July teapot promotion?”

    3. SayHey*

      Case studies/samples are needed (I work in the industry): I want to know you can write marketing content for web, social media (and maybe even print ads), and that know how to write to your specific audience’s needs in a very concise way that is action oriented. I have found that those who are currently/formally a science/SME writer, do NOT understand the difference. Get some freelance projects if you can to help w the transition. Good luck!

  7. Rara Avis*

    If it’s the biting kind, I believe it’s designed to grasp the front of the staple and pull it out.

  8. Bookworm*

    I was reading the book “The Unavoidable” about people who survived disasters and the surrounding psychology. This book was mentioned here a while back. There was at least one woman who survived both the 1993 and 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center. Do you know anyone who refuses to work in a skyscraper due to 9/11 or otherwise is very particular about their work environment (when they don’t work with dangerous chemicals, etc) safety?

    1. my cat is prettier than me*

      I don’t refuse to, but I worked on the 38th floor of a building for awhile and was always a little paranoid about it. I’m more concerned about active shooter situations now as I sit at the front desk on the first floor of a building.

    2. Harlowe*

      Not a major incident, but somewhat adjacent: after substitute teaching, I will never again wear business shoes that I cannot run in. There were too many times I had to sprint down the hallway to break up fights, respond to a medical incident, etc. Cute heels and sandals are no longer a part of my professional wardrobe.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I work downtown in a big city, and it freaks me out when I see people wearing what are essentially slippers or floppy shoes there. It’s all concrete, and their feet are getting no support. If anything happened and they had to run, they’d be screwed.

    3. Stuart Foote*

      I’m surprised if there was only one person that experienced both attacks–it’s not that crazy the same person would work in the same office across 8 years.

    6. Elle Woods*

      I had a co-worker who would only stay on the first or second floor of a hotel near a stairway. She lost a family member in the MGM Hotel Fire.

    7. M2RB*

      I am that person. I am an accountant so a trip & fall or papercut are my most likely workplace injuries. I work on the second floor of my office building, and my commute is about 13 miles one way. I worry more about a workplace shooting than anything else.

      I make sure my work shoes are comfortable enough to walk at least a mile in. I make sure that I know where all emergency exits are at all times. I don’t particularly like where my cube is and where my department sits in the building because we have only one exit route out of the area. I have been tempted to keep one of the multitools intended to break car windows & cut seatbelts in case I need to go out the window in my cube (it’s a single window, not one that can be opened).

      I am fully aware that I am paranoid about this stuff but thinking about it in advance and having a plan makes me feel better.

      1. Bookworm*

        I think about some of that stuff, too. I was at a smaller church for a wedding recently. Aside from the back doors into the lobby, the only emergency exit (it opened directly to the exterior) was at the front of the seating area, on one side. One family let their toddlers spread out and play in the open spot right in front of that emergency exit. My first thought on seeing that was that those kids would be trampled if people needed to get out quickly.

      2. Bitte Meddler*

        Sometime in the early 2000’s I started making sure I knew where all the escape routes were in my workplaces, and made it a point to walk all the unlocked spaces, to see if I could find random hiding spots in case the exits were blocked and there was a shooter.

        One place had a nap / pumping room that had a hidden space behind a half wall. If you’d never walked every inch of that room, you’d have no idea it was there. I told a co-worker who took a short nap in the room every afternoon about it and she was shocked. She’d been in there hundreds of times and never once noticed the space.

        Another had a load-bearing cement column that was hidden by a wall and another column. You had to squeeze your way in behind it but, once there, no one would ever find you.

        At my last office job (I work from home now), there was a big conference room down the hallway from my cube. one wall was lined with hip-high cabinets that weren’t visible from the door. You had to come all the way into the room and turn right to see them. My plan was to hide inside the cabinets.

        1. Reluctant Mezzo*

          I’m small enough to hide under the desk and it’s in a shadow corner so it wouldn’t be apparent anybody was there.

      3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I’m the admin for a counseling center at a university. I also sometimes think about school shooters and what I could or couldnt do. Only way to lock the front door is from the outside.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Talk to facilities. A bolt would probably be really easy to install and pretty cheap to boot. It’s extra security that would give you more peace of mind.

          I must admit to being way more comfortable at home with a door that locks such that I can still open it easily from the inside but locks from the outside. I do actually lock it from the inside as well but I keep a spare key on a nearby hook so I can get out in an emergency.

      4. goddessoftransitory*

        I always, always pay attention to the safety demo when flying, and note the plane exits. Once a flight attendant actually passed me a note thanking me for doing so!

        During an emergency is not the optimal time to try to figure out what to do in an emergency.

        1. anonprofit*

          I’m a bit obsessed with plane crashes–I find those kinds of things fascinating. (I was a Titanic kid instead of a dinosaur kid.) So many times people die because they’re not aware of what to do in an emergency! So now I always pay attention to the briefing.

          1. GythaOgden*

            I often watch those videos to get a sense of how heroic some people are. American pilots impress me the most — of all the survivable accidents, it seems to me that the common denominator was a pilot who kept his cool and did what they had to under extremely challenging circumstances. Sully was only the tip of the iceberg, but you look at some crashes (particularly the 2008 BA crash that managed to miss both the petrol stations at Hounslow and the motorway where the Prime Minister’s motorcade was passing and, given that they weren’t going to make it to the runway because they were out of fuel, put it down on the safest piece of grass they could find) and think how did everyone survive?! and the answer is usually that the pilot maintained control to the bitter end.

            I’m still not the world’s calmest flier, but I’ve found that if I’m distracted during take-off and landing (best way to do this is set a random alarm on my phone and scramble to turn it off; additionally, last time I flew I helped a much more nervous flier sat next to me get through the perilous bits and that helped my own nervousness), I can get through anything. I’m going a bit off the beaten track next spring — to the Caucasus, specifically Yerevan which is within spitting distance of /Iran/ — but with a western carrier you do have a much better chance of coming out alive.

        2. Reluctant Mezzo*

          I had to sit behind someone large and strong who was placed by the emergency exit. He *really* had to sleep, so I promised him that I would definitely wake him up if necessary (if I could wake my teen son, I can wake *anybody*).

    8. RLC*

      The 1995 Oklahoma City terror attack changed my view of working in a large federal building. Previously never gave it a second thought, after that I much preferred small (less than 10 employees) offices in tiny standalone buildings.

    9. Justin*

      My last job was literally located in the WTC (not the freedom tower but one of the others with 80+ floors) and there were people who refused to attend trainings we ran because it was in that building.

      I am a lifelong New Yorker who was very much in high school that day so to me being there is a source of pride and not fear (and there’s not a lot of hijacking these days). But I get it.

      1. Bookworm*

        I have a lot of friends in the Chicago area. In early 2002, a friend was offered a job in an office in the Sears Tower. She was also pregnant at the time. She turned the job down specifically because it was on a higher floor.

    10. Collette*

      At the time of the Virginia Tech shooting, I was adjunct faculty at a university with a very similar student demographic. Every time I walked into a classroom after that, I refined my escape/survival plan, based on how many doors and windows there were to the room, including how to get as many students to safety as possible. We did not get any training on that, so it was all up to me.

      I also wondered, every time a student failed my class, if I’d just made the “kill this person first” list. It didn’t stop me from recording those grades, they’d earned them by not doing the work, but it was definitely on my mind, pretty much all the time.

      Even though I’m not in academia any longer, I still scan every place I am for the likeliest escape and coverage routes.

      1. Purple Cabbage*

        Another academic here. Every semester, I fail a student or two for blatant, easily provable plagiarism. They typically melt down and say I’m ruining their lives – instead of taking any responsibility for the consequences of their own choices.

        Every time, I wonder if I’m putting a target on my back by requiring and enforcing academic integrity. I’m not sure what I could do differently in terms of my own safety though. I’m not quitting my job just because cheaters get mad when they’re caught.

      2. Bike Walk Barb*

        I worked in higher ed communications when that happened. We ran desktop drills for that happening on our campus and repeated them at other times. I’m realizing those were all the exec team, not faculty. I’m pretty sure we shared information on what to do but I don’t think we involved them in actual practice.

    11. The Rural Juror*

      We just moved from a 5th floor office suite to the 18th of another building. Fire drills at the old office were tiring, but totally doable for most folks (we have a few folks with mobility impairment but they’re on the opposite side of the office from me and I’m not sure how they handled it). I’m really dreading any fire drills now from the 18th floor.
      I get a little nervous about emergency situations in our tallish building. This is a good reminder to ask our office manager about the safety plan!

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        The tallest building I worked in was the 10th floor, and we had fire evacuation drills regularly. The bigger fear to me was that the building was adjacent to LAX, and we recognized that it would be a target of attack from overseas. Since the building had no exterior windows, we wouldn’t know what hit us.
        The scariest drill for me was when I was in an interior stairwell of a 2-story building, and ALL the lights went out (this was pre-Mobile phones, so I had no flashlight). I had to decide whether to go down the stairs to where I knew there was a solid door (to proceed across the building to exit), or up the stairs to where the door had a window (and proceed to an actual emergency stairwell which led to outside). I chose to go up, to see out before opening the door. I reported to everyone that I could think of, that the emergency lights were non-functional in that stairwell. It got included on the incident report.

      2. GythaOgden*

        I’m a trained fire warden at work. It really, really helps overcoming pyrophobia if you know what to do when.

    12. Bike Walk Barb*

      I work from home, as does my whole team. We’re in a public agency that’s very particular about safety; it’s part of our mission. All in-person meetings start with a safety briefing that includes identifying who would call 9-1-1, administer CPR, go for the AED, meet the first responder crew, and take charge as room captain to make sure everyone exits. We identify where we’ll muster if we do exit. The address of the building is written on the whiteboard because a visitor wouldn’t necessarily know that.

      We do a yearly “Great Shakeout” drill (Pacific NW, Ring of Fire, The Big One will hit someday). When we had a staff meeting one year on the day of the drill I asked people to think through how they would handle their safety at home if we had an earthquake. Probably time to put telework safety practices on the agenda again.

      When I travel on business, I’m the person who does actually look around on the plane and identify my nearest exits. Sometimes they’re behind me, as they say. I keep my seatbelt buckled when I’m seated.

      At my hotel I take the stairs from my room all the way down and out the fire exit, assuming it’s not one that will sound an alarm if I open the door. This way I know which way to turn from my room in the dark and where I’ll end up outside the building. I also know the door opens if I’m able to test that! One time at a hotel in DC we had a fire alarm at about 3am on an extremely frigid night. Good thing there wasn’t an actual fire; two women ended up in a stairwell confronted with a locked door. I picked this habit up from a family member who used to work for the State Department and stayed in a lot of hotels that weren’t built to US fire codes. He always checked the exits.

    13. Cedrus Libani*

      I’m another person who can’t do impractical clothing, especially shoes. If I can’t fight or flee because I’ve handicapped myself in the name of fashion, then I’m not safe, and it makes my soul itch.

      I’ve worked with someone with PTSD who couldn’t handle the standard desk layout (a row of cubbies facing the wall, with a walkway behind them). She got a medical accommodation, and the desk at the far end of the row, turned 90 degrees such that her back was against the wall and nobody could sneak up behind her.

      I’m also reminded of a sixth-grade teacher. There was a fire drill, and after the all-clear signal was given and we were headed back in, I was a party to some very minor kid shenanigans. She absolutely lost it, both at us and at the somewhat bewildered principal she’d hauled us in front of. Turned out that her previous school had burned to the ground, with loss of life that might have been caused by assuming the alarm wasn’t real until it was too late, and she had some lingering feelings about people not taking fire drills seriously enough.

      1. anonprofit*

        A few jobs ago I had a desk with my back to the room and I hated it! Luckily it wasn’t too hard to get permission to move it the other way, since I had confidential files on my screen.

    14. fhqwhgads*

      Not specifically skyscrapers or the environment, but I know someone who worked at Morgan-Stanley, was not in the building on 9/11 but basically just can’t go back there.

  9. BellaStella*

    I just have a positive shout out to effective HR. Finally we have new HR members who are actually listening to staff and addressing stuff head on with a narcissistic lead and looping in senior leadership and keeping staff updated. After nearly two years of lead gaslighting and bullying and lying and pushing down people on the staff, we are working with high quality HR who are handling stuff. The light at the end of the tunnel is small still but is not a train and there is much more hope from staff.

    1. Venus*

      I’ll add my WWAS (What would Alison/AAM suggest?) moment:
      There is a management position opening up, and I expressed some concerns to the hiring manager about a couple potential candidates lacking interpersonal skills. After the interviews he told me that my comments prompted him to ask some questions specifically on the topic and he felt much happier with his decision as a result. The choice is someone who lacks some skills yet has always been very open to feedback, so I get the impression that those questions helped the two of them have a conversation during the interview about his comfort level with managing and how hiring manager could help mentor and improve these skills.

      Initially I had really debated saying anything because I didn’t want to seem critical or gossipy, yet I’ve known the hiring manager for years so he understood my intent and it ended up as a really positive experience (and most importantly, it will have positive effects for years in future).

        1. Venus*

          I really hope your situation improves sooner than later, but either way it sounds like you’re doing much better!

  10. Elsewise*

    Remote workers- how do you feel about or what is the etiquette for non-managers scheduling in-person meetings?

    I’m hybrid but in practice mostly remote. I live 45 minutes to an hour away from our primary office, and about 20 minutes away from our secondary office. Our team had a meeting in-person scheduled at the primary office on a specific date, and in a team meeting a coworker suggested another in-person planning session. This session doesn’t need to be in-person, but since we were already going to be there, we all agreed to schedule it on the same day. Well, turns out that day doesn’t work for another team that we were considering inviting, so this team member scheduled us for another in-person session on a different day. It’s a week when I already have agreed to three other in-person commitments on different days, and I really don’t want to add a fourth.

    I want to decline, but I’m worried about being perceived as not a team player for not agreeing to go in person. The organizer is senior to me, but not in management, and has a history of unilaterally scheduling in-person meetings that could have been an email. All of them are at our primary location, which is convenient to everyone but me. For team culture context, our department has recently seen some pushback to our director scheduling super long in-person meetings, and the director just this week sent out an email politely telling people to get over it, so I’m concerned that it will reflect poorly on me if I push back on this request.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Try pushing back cheerfully and see what their reaction is, test the waters. “Hi Etty, I’m not onsite that day, can we add a zoom link to the meeting as well? Or if you want to be inperson I’m onsite that week on dates. Thanks!”

      1. JMR*

        Yeah, this! There’s a very good chance the person scheduling the meeting doesn’t realize you’re not on-site that day. Give them the option of meeting virtually or rescheduling for a day if they want to meet in-person!

        1. Ama*

          Yes, when I started being more firm about meeting times after being run ragged by coworkers who scheduled meetings both before and after my regular work day (and often through lunch), I realized quickly that people just don’t pay attention to other people’s schedules – they were just looking for open space on my calendar, they didn’t stop to notice that I had blocks before and after that time so they were booking me from three hours straight over lunch or know that I work 9:30 to 5:30 normally. And usually just a polite “hey is there anyway we can change this 9 am start, I don’t get in until 9:30” is usually fine.

    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      You should be able to push back. It’s one thing to ditch a meeting that your director sets up in person. It’s another to ditch a meeting this guy sets up.

    3. Beth**

      Can you have hybrid meetings? 95% of my meetings these days are hybrid. If you have the tech for it, it’s very straightforward to have some people in the room and others on screen.

      1. Mireya*

        If a meeting involves a presentation, there needs to be a second, dedicated person monitoring the chat. I’ve been in hybrid presentations where that wasn’t the case, and the presenter wasn’t aware the remote attendees couldn’t hear or see certain things.

    4. M2*

      See if they can do it another day you are on site first. The other option is to ask to be on Zoom or Teams but only for that one meeting not all of them. See what they say.

      Honestly it’s up to you but many RTO has been because people are refusing to go into the office for meetings, etc. I think only you know how your organization works. If this starts to annoy people will they now tell you you’re officially hybrid? Will they start RTO?

      Personally, I would first ask to do it on a day I’m already there and I wouldn’t push back necessarily because I have seen more and more places RTO but I also don’t live far.

      What is worse going into the office one more day or having the Director wonder if now everyone needs to be in the office 2/3 days a week.

      Ask me how I know…

      1. Mireya*

        Agree on the RTO. A big chunk of hybrid work issues would solve themselves, if people would just go into the office to do their own in-person tasks whenever they come up.

    5. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

      I have coworkers and adjacent department heads who like to schedule meetings. Most are unnecessary or piled on top of other meetings when I need some time to refresh. I say go ahead and push back. If you already have a lot of commitments, that’s a perfectly valid reason.

    6. TheBunny*

      I’d just suck it up and go. It’s thing like this that cause upper management to think “if we were all just in office this wouldn’t be an issue”.

      Yes it’s annoying. But it’s less annoying that being told you are now fully in office because people are tired of trying to plan meetings around in office days.

      1. Lucy*

        Agree. Especially since management just sent out an email shutting down a complaint about an in-person meeting.

        It might be worth trying some of the suggestions to push back later, but just go to the meeting for now.

        (Also, coincidentally, my cat’s nickname is Bunny.)

  11. Freedom*

    Y’all, today is my last day at my job and my boss is being so weird. He got in this morning and immediately starts giving projects to do as if he doesn’t know I’m leaving? And then when I told him that I could not get all of them done today, he acts like they were just minor things that need to be wrapped up? Sorry, but I’m not able to do a major website overhaul by 4 today.

    Still, I’ve just got to laugh and let it roll off me, because what else can I do? Today will be my last day no matter what he demands, and if stuff doesn’t get done because he didn’t tell me about it until my last day, then I guess he’ll just have to figure it out for himself.

    3. No thumbs up at the ANC!!*

      Congrats. On my last day my boss was no where to be found. And the CEO was surprised when I walked into the main building vs working at the ancillary location (where my desk was). He said, ‘Oh awesome, I’d love to talk to you later today!’ and he never did.

      So you’re doing better with people actually talking to you.

    4. Mireya*

      Do whatever you can, and then leave.

      At a previous job, I planned to and spent my last day documenting a large process I’d been doing long-term temporary with no end in sight.

      A boss who’d acted like I wasn’t leaving, dumped a PDF project on me that required a compromise. Reducing the file size wasn’t really an option, because it would affect readability of the document. But my boss objected to splitting the PDF into two or more parts.

      I told him to deal with it himself, and went back to documenting the process. If I were that kind of person, it would’ve served them right had I not documented the process.

    5. UpstateDownstate*

      Congrats on your last day!

      Nope, you cannot do a major project by 4pm! Focus on saying farewell to the employees you care about and sending out a ‘farewell’ email at 3:59pm.

      :)

    6. Synaptically Unique*

      Same exact thing just happened to my new employee. I don’t understand the mentality at all. He just did what he could do, then signed off at the end of the day.

      1. ecnaseener*

        I think in most cases it’s just a lack of organization. They didn’t make a transition plan or a list of things only the departing employee knows how to do, and so on the last day when it’s finally feeling real they go “oh shit there are 5 things I was thinking could get done next week but they can’t because only Jane can do them.”

        Like, I’m sure there’s the occasional weird attempt at a power play, but my money’s on incompetence for 90% of cases.

    7. Fly on the Wall*

      I worked at a company for 12 years, at the end as a project manager. On my last day my main customer was in town so we could wrap everything up. A couple hours into the day our GM came and grabbed him for a “quick meeting”. That quick meeting? They left and went golfing. Needless to say I logged off, said my goodbyes and left.

    8. Stretchy McGillicuddy*

      Your boss really believes you are obligated to complete any project he gives you before the deadline. Like walking into a restaurant 5 mins before closing and ordering a four course meal. LOL.

  12. Jessen*

    So, when you’re looking at breaking into a new field, what sort of things do you look at for getting credentials and experience? Nowadays there’s always so many people offering certifications in everything and a lot of them I know are probably not worth the paper they’re printed on. For that matter how do you even figure out more specifically what jobs are out there that use the skills you have?

    Like many of us millennials I grew up on “do what you love, get a degree and you’ll be fine!” It turns out what I love is getting paid decently and not having to think about my job too much outside of work hours. I’m in entry-level IT support right now and looking to transfer to a more technical writing and customer support based field. But honestly I’m overwhelmed by figuring out what sort of credentials and experience I’d need, what different fields/subfields there are that I should look into, and basically just planning for this. I’m not sure where to start! This is the only professional job I’ve had and frankly I got it because I’m related to someone.

    I know this is a super broad question but I feel like there’s so little solid advice for people looking to pick a career or change careers that’s not drowned out by advertising. I know what I’m good at (I’m ok at actual IT technical stuff, I’m good at writing quickly, and I’m very good at working with people who are frustrated and don’t understand what’s going on), but I’m not sure how to match that to jobs and figure out how to demonstrate those skills to employers.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t have personal experience changing fields/breaking into a new field, but these posts might be a good place to start:

      “let’s talk about mid-life career changes” from May 28, 2020

      “what fields have hiring booms right now?” from August 11, 2022

      I wouldn’t expect the fields in the “hiring booms” post to still be in hiring booms, but some posters put qualifications/certifications to have in their posts (sometimes in the top-level post, sometimes in replies to the top-level post) and it could be helpful to get an idea of what helps/doesn’t help when breaking into a new field.

      2. Anax*

        IT is a little bit tight right now; there were some big layoffs in 2022-2023 after pandemic-era over-hiring. Right now, return-to-office is doing strange things to the market – a lot of companies seem to have a ‘wait and see’ approach, willing to accept some short-to-medium-term vacancies in hopes that prospective employees will relent and accept fully- or mostly-on-site positions once they realize that RTO isn’t going away.

        Not sure how long that will take to shake out, perhaps a year or two, but it’s definitely not a hiring boom right now.

    2. WhaleINever*

      This may be a little specific to my field, but one thing I would consider is checking job listings, LinkedIn, and company websites to see what certifications companies are requesting, and what certifications people are getting hired with, because that can give you very different results than advice aimed at people trying to break into a career.

      I initially was planning on going into archives; I chose to get a Masters in History/Public History rather than a Masters of Library Science, because all of my professors and a lot of advice blogs informed me the field was 50-50. Well, maybe a few decades ago it was, but now it’s more like 75-25 MLIS, if not greater. I thought, okay, let me try to get my certification to see if that will help, as some industry professionals told me it would—nope! After enough listings and LinkedIn stalking, it became very clear that for most jobs, the MLIS was a requirement and the certification was a bonus, but not enough on its own… and a lot of recent grads were in a similar boat.

      Thankfully I got just enough experience to decide that archives wasn’t for me after all, and pivoted to a related field I enjoy much better, but it definitely made me wary about certifications. I had ample reason to think I could talk my way into the field by saying “well technically I don’t have A, but I do have B, C, and D”—but knowing the relative value of A, B, C, and D really was essential.

      1. pally*

        This is good advice for other fields too!
        Also, might seek out professional organizations pertaining to the industry you wish to work in. They may offer certifications that do pertain to the field. As WhaleINever wrote, check the job ads to get a feel for the frequency employers are asking for the certifications offered by the professional organization.

      2. Jessen*

        Thanks! One of the things I am trying to navigate around is that a lot of jobs seem to want a bachelor’s in either english or some IT related field. I have a bachelor’s in philosophy and most of an associate’s degree in cybersecurity. I’d rather not have to go back for a second bachelor’s if I can help it – I’m not completely opposed but most schools want a minimum of 90 credits at their institution and I can only do a max of 15 credits in a year effectively. My current work is at a community college that does not offer 4-year degrees, so that would put me several years back if I need to complete 90 credits at a different institution.

        Which puts me in a bit of a weird position, because I am qualified and want to be able to demonstrate that I’m qualified, but I’m not in a good position to get that specific credential despite having completed basically all the coursework I’d need to get that credential. So I’m trying to figure out alternate ways to demonstrate that yes, I am qualified to do this job.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          One of the things I am trying to navigate around is that a lot of jobs seem to want a bachelor’s in either english or some IT related field.

          Apply for those jobs! Philosophy is a reading/writing/thinking focused degree, so I think most hiring managers should be able to understand it covers a lot of the same skills as a degree in English. And on the IT side, associate degree in cybersecurity + IT experience (+ being able to check “yes” on the 4-year degree box) will probably be an acceptable equivalent to “IT-related 4-year degree.” I think it’s worth sending out some applications to see what happens.

        2. kalli*

          If you’ve done the coursework and your community college gives you a transcript, look into Recognised Prior Learning – some institutions will let you test out or otherwise sign off on credits if you’ve done the coursework or have equivalent work experience. It’s done on a case-by-case basis so you’d have to contact the faculty or prospective students team at an institution that offers the bachelors people are looking for, and see what they say after a look at your transcript and a bit of a chat.

      3. AnotherLibrarian*

        This is 100% good advice. And what I tell students in archives programs who contact me about the field is always that this has shifted. (And I feel bad saying it to people who are in History MAs with an Archives specialization.)

    3. SansaStark*

      I can’t offer you any advice about picking a career unfortunately, but I can offer a little bit of practical advice about certificates and certifications since that’s my industry.

      Certificates are good for life. Usually you’ll take a class, do modules, etc. and then the good ones have an assessment that you need to pass, then you have this certificate forever.

      Certifications are only good for X amount of years and then you have to recertify – usually by passing a test or some other professional development activities. If you’re looking for a certification that’s actually worth something, you want to look for ones that require recertification (they’ll usually tell you about the requirements in a Candidate’s Guide) and that don’t try to sell you the preparation materials for the exam. If they’re trying to sell you the only one resource you’ll need to pass the test, they’re not in line with industry best practices.

      Good luck – finding a career that you like can be tough. It might be helpful to try a couple of different jobs to see what you like doing. My career path is anything but linear and I can confidently explain how Job A led to Job D based on my skills and interests.

    4. Grey cat*

      I’ll address two things you brought up—how to find a different career when you aren’t sure what you want, and how you break into a career once you figure that out.

      Finding a new career is a time for you to trust your instincts and go by feel. I found a new career by attending every event attached to a field of work that sounded remotely interesting. If you don’t live in a city, you might be able to simulate this with virtual events. If you can’t find an event, you have to contact people and ask to chat with them.

      I’m an introvert; this was not easy, but I can’t stress enough that talking to people was so much more clarifying than books or articles on the internet. I talked to event planners, a matchmaker, bakery owners, copywriters, project managers…it ran the spectrum. You ask what they like about their job, what they don’t like about their job, about their day-to-day, etc. This should at least give you a sense if you want to keep pursuing this direction or not. There’s a lot of self-reflection as you decide what’s important to you and what tradeoffs you’re willing to consider.

      As for the transition itself, you talk to more people. Once you’ve identified the job you want, you cold-email folks asking if they’re willing to chat, and you ask them how they recommend transitioning to their field and what certifications, if any, they’d recommend. Lots of people were really nice and generously gave me some of their time or connected me with others.

      I’m sure it varies by field, but in my experience, doing some actual work will virtually always be superior to certificates or degrees. I did pro-bono work that I put on my resume. You don’t have to disclose it was pro-bono, and if you have work samples of some kind or can talk about the stellar work you did, that’s what really matters. Yes, there were tons of people who didn’t want to interview me because I didn’t have extensive experience in my new field, so you have to be patient, keep networking, and make sure you’re presenting yourself in the most positive light in your resume and interviews.

      I transitioned to a completely unrelated field even with a five-year gap in my resume. End-to-end my career transition took me about two years, I think? You can totally do it; the length of time depends on luck and how drastic the career switch is.

      1. Jessen*

        Thanks! I’m hoping IT support to technical writing will be a bit shorter. Most likely I’d be looking at fields where I’d be writing documentation for computer work, although I’d also be open to more hands-on support work. I’ve learned by now that I’m absolutely ok with boring or repetitive work, but having a job that doesn’t follow me home too often is very important.

        I have been looking at either pro bono work or gig sites like fivver or upwork, plus doing some “fake” documentation for scifi technologies. I’m fortunately in a place where I have a stable job that does pay the bills, but my rent is going up faster than my paycheck is right now and I think I could get more if I can present myself as a more specialized candidate.

    5. Anax*

      I’m in IT, and some thoughts.

      Don’t bother with credentials unless you can’t get on-the-job experience. On-the-job is VASTLY more important in IT, outside some very specific subspecialties. (Network security, for instance.)

      What I would actually recommend is going to your manager or someone else at work, and saying “hey, I really want to build my skills in [x] – could I do something like [y] for a few hours per week, as my other duties permit?”

      Ideally, this is going to involve you spotting an actual issue at work and asking to do that specifically. Say, “Hey, I’ve noticed that our team doesn’t have a written guide on debugging VPN issues; could I write something up and run it by you? I think that might be really useful for onboarding.”

      Slightly less ideally, it’s going to involve you going to your boss (or grandboss, or someone else with the authority to tell you what to do who seems friendly), and asking if THEY’VE seen any issues that you could work on. “Hey, I’d really like to build my technical writing skills; do you see any big gaps in our documentation that I could help with, as time allows?”

      Most reasonable managers will be ok with you spending say, 2-5 hours per week on skill-building or other duties. Especially something like documentation, which is always behind and often unpopular to work on. If there’s something you want to learn, literally just ask, preferably with a specific, actionable idea.

      (This is why I’m suggesting couching it as a clear ‘in addition to your normal duties’, taking up only a small portion of your time – that’s a much easier sell for most managers than an undefined “actually, instead of my job, can I go do something else?”. This approach also requires that you’re doing well at your ordinary work, for what that’s worth – a reputation for competence is probably your biggest asset in IT, at least WITHIN a company.)

      As far as subspecialties –
      – You might enjoy becoming higher-level tech support. This is often referred to as T2 or T3 tech support – the people who get calls escalated to them, rather than the entry-level folks who get all incoming calls. (Often, they also write the documentation that T1 folks use.)

      Working in tech support and getting a reputation for competence and handling the difficult calls is going to be useful here.

      A minor caveat: It’s very common for large companies to outsource T1 (entry-level) to other countries, but usually NOT T2 or T3 – so sticking around your current company until you get a promotion or a couple of years of experience might help you bridge that gap.

      – You might enjoy being an analyst. “Business process analyst” or “business systems analyst” are likely titles here, but you may need to dig into different “analyst” positions to find the appropriate ones. The job I’m talking about involves being the liaison between IT and stakeholders – the person who gathers business requirements, runs status meetings, and translates stakeholder requests into IT language.

      There’s a lot of writing here – this is the person who takes “I want the website to look more modern”, talks to the stakeholders until they get specific (“I don’t like the navigation bar, the graphics look dated, and there are broken links on the ‘about’ page”), writes down those specifics clearly enough that the stakeholder can agree that you’ve gotten their request right or make any needed changes, and turns them into actionable requests for IT (“revamp navigation bar with blue/black color scheme and mobile-friendly CSS, for a demo to stakeholders in two weeks”).

      As you might guess, there’s also a lot of translating between technical and nontechnical language, managing expectations, and dealing with potentially frustrated stakeholders.

      – You might enjoy project management. There’s a lot of overlap with the analyst work I described above – but the project manager focuses a lot more on making sure tasks are on-time and on-budget, which means keeping your finger on the pulse of team members’ workloads. If you like juggling ten different priorities, rather than focusing on one thing all day, PM work might be for you.

      All of these are basically jobs you can train for on-the-job. If you do some of these tasks in your current position – say, translating requests, answering the hard questions, doing documentation – then you’ll be fully qualified to jump into any of these positions. Just finetune your resume to highlight those tasks, look for a gig which isn’t expecting too much experience (say, 1-3 years, “associate” level positions, or just the plain title without something like “senior” in front), and explain that you want to make a lateral move because you’ve found that these tasks are where your passion really lies. You might be able to make this move from within, too, depending on how your organization works – and that might be easier, because a reputation for competence is going to really bolster your chances.

      (Hiring in IT is a huge headache, because LOTS of people lie on their resumes. “Are you a reasonable person who can do what you claimed you could do” matters vastly more than your degree, your past experience, or your credentials. That’s why reputation matters so much – and while it’s not super transferrable between organizations, it’s VERY transferrable within an organization.)

      There are probably some other subspecialties that would work! An actual “technical writer” gig seems to be somewhat uncommon these days outside particularly technical IT (like, engineering or industrial programs), but I think there’s a lot that would work for you. These, however, are the ones I’ve personally done, and I’ve actually made the lateral move from phoneline support to software development, and from software development to analyst/PM work.

      I think “analyst” is likely to be a good general keyword for you to keep an eye on, if you’re more interested in writing and talking than the actual technical stuff. (I am, too – that’s why I switched specialties.)

      Hope that’s useful; good luck!

      1. Jessen*

        So my current company doesn’t really do a lot of promotions and we’re not set up to take on extra work at the job. It’s government contract work and set up in a way where basically I can do my job description and only my job description and I do not have access or permissions to do anything else. I can do internal SOPs and documentation because that’s part of my job area, but basically anything else I am actively not allowed to do because I don’t have permissions. We’d have to bill it under a different billing code if I did and I’m not in a position that’s authorized to use that billing code.

        I also don’t think I’ve ever seen much in the way of promotions happening, unless you apply for the job as an external candidate (and even then it’s likely in a different department that has basically no contact with my manager or department). I have never even met our tier 2 or 3 support people. Don’t get me wrong, I like the job, but it’s definitely built in a way where people tend to get a job and then keep that job at their level for the next decade or three. But it does make it harder to figure out other skills and lean into reputation when each team is really kind of siloed away from the others.

        1. Anax*

          Yuck! Ok, that definitely changes the picture.

          I would still do internal SOPs and documentation – that’s good, resume-worthy experience, and you should highlight it if you want to do similar work going forward.

          I think that 2-3 years of experience is still going to be beneficial in helping you find your next job, just so you’re not 100% fresh out of college – IT is notoriously tough to find entry-level gigs in.

          But honestly, I would just start applying for analyst gigs, if that sounds interesting to you. That’s probably the easiest subspecialty to break into without formal experience, and the experience you do have should be fairly transferrable. Unfortunately, this might take a lot of applications, since you’re making a lateral move in a somewhat tight market. You might get lucky, but I would expect this to be a longer haul, so expect that, apply sustainably, and try to include solid cover letters to connect your existing experience to the job.

          I don’t think credentials will do you much good, but when you get to the interview stage, knowing the *language* used in IT may well help – so it might help to find a free online course or two on agile, project management, and business process analysis. You can leapfrog from there into other interests if you find something you particularly like.

          Coursera is pretty good for free classes, Humble Bundle has inexpensive book bundles sometimes, and Udemy has decent courses on a deep sale pretty often (but check the preview to make sure the instructor’s voice and style will work for you). Five years ago, I would have told you to haunt /r/talesfromtechsupport and similar subs, but unfortunately, Reddit is pretty dead these days. There might be some good Discords around for discussing industry scuttlebutt, or more “old-school” local professional organizations.

          If you’re in the US and anywhere near your state capitol, state public-sector jobs might be a good option – state agencies are often large enough to need a lot of analysts, and if this election season goes blue, they’re likely to be hiring a lot in preparation for infrastructure-related initiatives. (Public sector can also be less focused on credentials/degree specifics than private sector, sometimes; there are LOTS of IT folks in public-sector with Philosophy degrees.)

          Gut feeling, other infrastructure-related companies/organizations might also be a good bet, like your local utility company. I also saw quite a bit of university/higher-education hiring when I was job-hunting this spring/summer, but that might be regional.

          I would *not* personally recommend the really sexy-sounding tech companies like Twitter, Apple, etc. A lot of them have a corporate culture which does not value work-life balance, and a lot of them have been doing substantial layoffs in the last couple of years as they adjust to the changing market. Startups are also an area I would tend to avoid right now, since the market’s a little tight.

          “Boring” industries like banking, insurance, etc., are usually hiring, but their IT is likely to be using very old and janky technology; your tolerance for “this essential system is somehow still running Windows 2000” may vary.

          1. Jessen*

            I mean, I already work in federal government. There was a significant amount of panic when microsoft stopped supporting internet explorer because we had some critical software that only worked properly when run in internet explorer. Not microsoft edge, internet explorer. I’m used to janky nonsense that can’t be changed for Reasons. I think one of my job skills is explaining to internal clients “yes what you’ve suggested would make perfect sense but when this was set up last decade no one thought of that so it’s not possible.”

            The good aspect of my job is that it’s stable and I’m paid decently enough, so I don’t need to be in a rush to find something else.

    6. bee*

      I’m a millennial too and ran into the same kinds of careers issues you describe. I’m not in IT, but I can tell you a bit about my experience changing careers at age 30.

      I got a liberal arts based degree and then struggled to find a job that paid enough to live on, especially in the expensive city where I grew up. I realized I cared more about being able to support myself and have a good quality of life than “doing what I love”. In my mid-late 20s I worked at a nonprofit that was fairly under-resourced and didn’t pay well; the one positive about that was they were open to their staff working in different areas and trying new things. I ended up getting pretty broad experience in a variety of areas including operations and finance which was helpful in terms of learning what my strengths were, as well as what types of jobs were out there. So, my first recommendation would be to see if there are any new responsibilities you could take on at your current job. Since they already know you, it may be easier to take on work that’s not directly related to your background.

      After getting some exposure to different kinds of work, I realized accounting/finance was actually an area that played in to my strengths and where I could see a more stable future. I knew it would be difficult to move into related jobs without more relevant experience, so I decided to go to grad school. I found a Masters in Accounting program that was geared towards people with unrelated undergraduate degrees, and as a bonus, it was at one of my state’s public universities so the tuition was more affordable. I enrolled and finished the degree in about 2 years.

      Accounting firms do a lot of recruiting directly out of universities, so I was lucky enough to find a full-time job soon after I graduated. That job paid decently but also gave me the work experience needed for the CPA license and paid for all of it (exam fees, review program, license fees etc.) which was a big part of the reason I accepted the position I did. I got licensed about a year after working there which was honestly the best thing I could have done for myself career-wise. I’m now at my second job since graduating, have a salary I’m happy with, and have great work/life balance.

      I know grad school can be hit or miss in terms of increasing job prospects, but I think if you go in with a specific goal and choose a program that has decent on-campus recruiting, that can make a big difference for you. I’ll also say, I think certifications/licenses can make a big difference depending on the field. In my last job search, employers were more focused on my CPA license than anything else, including my masters degree. I would take a look at job listings for positions you’re interested in and see if there are specific degrees or certifications they mention. That’s a good starting point to figure out what matters to employers. Good luck!

    7. Fur Fir Fer*

      For tech writing, join the Society of Technical Communication STC and go to local meetings. Most tech writers are awesome and will help you. Also check out proposal writing and the Association of Proposal Manager Professionals APMP. Good luck!

  13. Dasein9 (he/him)*

    Just popping in to thank y’all again for being such a supportive community. I’ve just returned to OldOldJob after 2 months laid off and when things got rough, your kindness was a big help. I’ll do my best to pay it forward.

  14. my cat is prettier than me*

    Where is a good place to buy women’s suits? I’m trying to dress more professionally at work even though we don’t really have a dress code.

    1. CTT*

      If you’re in the US, Ann Taylor has long been my go-to for more formal work pieces (including my one suit).

        5. Tempest*

          Sign up for their emails and watch for sales. They regularly have things like 60% off sale styles, and you can pick up nice pieces for Old Navy prices.

      2. feline overlord's chief vassal*

        Ugh, Ann Taylor assumes that professional women do not have bodacious booties. As someone who is quite curvy at the lower level, I got quite frustrated trying to shop there. Maybe they’ve changed? I haven’t tried shopping there in years.

        2. Joielle*

          They have curvy suit pieces now! I just bought a bi-stretch suit with curvy cut pencil skirt for the bottom and it’s great. They also have curvy suit pants which I haven’t tried but look promising (waiting for another sale before I buy a pair).

        4. Jshaden*

          For women and femmes of all shapes and sizes, including the curvaceous, busty, and large among us, consider Universal Standard for suiting and workwear basics. Sizes run from 00-40 and 4XS-4XL (renormalized so that size 18 denim is a Medium), and specific pant styles are described by the hip to waist size difference. Once you figure out their sizing, it is pretty consistent across items. They are pricey even compared to Ann Taylor, but there are frequent sales.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      JC Penny’s has some decent quality but also generally inexpensive suit separates in their (Wordsworth? Something like that) line, which go together style-wise across their color options, you can choose between different styles of skirts and/or pants, and also allows for flexibility if your top and bottom half are not the same size.

      I don’t think they’re quite as nice as Ann Taylor or some of the other options, but if you’re experimenting or on a budget, they may suit anyway (pun not intended :P )

      1. HoundMom*

        Dilliards has some great clothing and often good sales. I just picked up a couple of pieces for 60 to 75% off on-line. I also like Jones New York which is only on-line these days.

    3. SansaStark*

      I’ve had great luck with Kasper at Macys. I never pay full price since their stuff frequently goes on sale.

      1. Resume please*

        Agreed, Macy’s! They have sales on every major holiday (including right now, probsbly.)

    4. Harlowe*

      Try on suits at major department stores, take note of the brands that fit you well, then go on Poshmark. It’s a GREAT time to buy second-hand because many people dumped their work wardrobes on thrift sites when they went fully remote.

    5. higheredrefugee*

      I am not thin or narrow enough for Ann Taylor so my go to has been Calvin Klein dresses from Macy’s and Nordstrom Rack, topped with blazers and cardigans from same. I find dresses to be more comfortable to dress up and down and also roll with weight changes better (year 12ish of perimenopause, yay!!) and also for public transportation commuting to add layers only needed for the travel. Depending on your taste, I’ve also had luck at Saks off Fifth and vouch for the washability, wearability, and durability of Lands End pieces.

      1. Texan In Exile*

        Their sleeveless sheath dresses are great! They are mostly true to size, so I get them on eBay. (But I have to be sure the fabric has the proper amount of lycra – the more lycra, the smaller the size I can buy. I usually get size 8, but I just got a size 10 that was lined. I thought I would have to alter it, but the lining and the fabric composition made it a lot less stretchy that what I usually get, so the 10 fit fine.)

      2. Chauncy Gardener*

        Came here to say exactly this.
        Plus, if you have good consignment or thrift shops around, those can be a bonanza. There are a couple in a very upscale town near me and yeow! Major designer scores for short money.

    6. Balanceofthemis*

      I’ve had good results at Marshall’s. Otherwise, if you are willing to buy separates, second hand clothing stores often have a good range of bottoms and suit jackets, and that can be really helpful if your proportions don’t match
      exactly, like me.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I actually got a good haul from Goodwill a couple weeks ago! It just sucks that you can’t try stuff on anymore.

        1. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

          I find that’s very Goodwill dependent – all of the ones near me have open dressing rooms, but there are other large thrift chains that do not.

    8. Echo*

      If you have a Nordstrom Rack near you it is a great budget option for professional clothing. I get all my suits there.

    9. Synaptically Unique*

      I wear a lot of Kasper (Belk, Dillard’s, Ross Dress for Less), Calvin Klein (same/similar stores), and Black Label by Evan Piccone (JC Penny). Find a handful of styles that work for you, and then take advantage of the sales. A lot of my business formal clothes are similar styles across different brands, but that makes it easier to mix and match. Since I get different colors and patterns (but all around the same color scheme), it doesn’t look like I’m wearing the same thing over and over.

    10. Joielle*

      If you want a suit that’s more on the casual end, I recently bought matching pants and blazer from Old Navy of all places and I like them! It’s the Taylor relaxed suit blazer and Taylor high-waisted trouser pants. I think they were like $40 for each piece on sale. It’s not a going-to-court look but it is a nice step up from business casual.

    11. Indolent Libertine*

      My kid has nice suit separates from Banana Republic. I think Macy’s (the western US equivalent of Dillard’s) also has that sort of thing.

    12. ONFM*

      Thrift stores. I’ve never been to one that wasn’t drowning in blazers. When I was starting out in a business-pro setting, I grabbed a few black blazers, a few pairs of black slacks, and then just mixed and matched with shirts (button downs, blouses, nice tanks) until I had a pretty failsafe wardrobe. Once you get an idea of what brands you like, you can be on the lookout for them, check ebay or poshmark, or shop the sales. Good luck!

    13. Chunky Suit Wearer*

      Lands End has washable wool (thin weight) suit separates in a full range of sizes. I’ve also had good luck at Talbots.

    15. BigLawEx*

      For traditional sizes, Theory or Theory outlet has some pieces I’ve had for years. Also second Ann Taylor/Loft. I’m quite curvy and have had good luck there – especially as you can buy pieces separately – so I can get a blazer in a 6 and a skirt/pant in an 8. Also, tailoring helps to adapt whatever you buy to your frame. In LA it’s about $10/piece.

  15. Cyndi*

    This is more of a vent than a serious advice question, because obviously I know what to do: does anyone else feel like whenever they’re rightfully corrected on something at work it gets worse before it gets better? I was spoken to at the beginning of this week about my punctuality, which was fair and deserved, and primarily an issue because I need to be at my computer and able to take calls starting at 9 sharp. So I’m pulling it together on that, but the last two days in a row (both WFH days) I was at my computer on time but then got up to grab coffee from the kitchen and missed a client call, both mornings, in the few minute window when I was gone. Which is genuine bad luck but of course is going to look like more tardiness from my boss’s end. Come on, universe, I’m trying here.

    1. retireee1*

      I don’t mean to be harsh, but if the issue is being on time, I would stay at my desk for a while and bring my own coffee. That would show everyone that you were really trying.

      1. ThatGirl*

        She’s at home – just in the kitchen instead of at the computer.

        Do you have a laptop or a mobile you take work calls from? Can you bring it with you while you’re making coffee? I’m assuming your home office is far enough from the kitchen that you didn’t hear it?

        1. Cyndi*

          Unfortunately it’s a desktop computer with a mic headset but I COULD unplug the headset while I’m AFK so calls ring through the computer speakers instead, thank you for the idea.

          1. ThatGirl*

            At least then you could hurry back if it rang and you were able to – but yeah, it’s just bad luck, so it goes. I work hybrid and miss calls/messages just as often in-office as away from it.

          2. Bitte Meddler*

            Would a Bluetooth headset work?

            I have one and I can make it all the way to my front door (down a hallway and past three rooms) before the Bluetooth cuts out.

        2. Zebra*

          But why would her boss need to speak to her about punctuality if she’s working from home? There’s no commute…no reason to be late.

          1. GythaOgden*

            Yeah, I’ve seen the figures from someone in Cyndi’s position during an HR investigation I was minuting and it seems to be harder than you might think. Sometimes even the lack of a commute can make people more complacent — they overestimate the time they can spend on a morning routine and struggle to get going on time. It’s often said that the people who live nearest the office are more often late, and that seems to be the case even when we work from home.

            I almost learned the hard way (almost missed a flight when I was 17 on my first solo trip abroad, because I mistook take-off time for boarding time and got to the gate just as they were boarding the last passengers), and following a family trait, immediately switched to being early as a way of avoiding being late. I’d rather get in and get going twenty minutes early than be five minutes late, and the UK time-keeping system is a lot more flexible than the US one (a lot more people are basically de facto salaried exempt; my role would be hourly in the US but I’m paid a fixed amount monthly, and I actually prefer getting going early when I’m most alert), allowing me to get going so I don’t just sit around, get absorbed in something else and overshoot. My dad can do that too — one whiff of health issues and he cuts way further back on unhealthy stuff than he even needs to. Sometimes we just need a real kick up the pants to get us compliant, and even then it can be hard switching. Cyndi is definitely in this category IME and yeah, needs to be a bit more present earlier so she can adhere to the spirit of the situation as well as the letter.

      2. Cyndi*

        I do make my own coffee! Every morning, on both WFH and in office days. There really is a big luck element here, because I only actually get a handful of calls a week, and my boss and I agree it would be unreasonable for me to be barred from going to the bathroom or kitchen for my entire workday in case somebody calls in that five-minute window. I really don’t take longer breaks than that, outside of my scheduled lunch.

        But I think you may be on to something with optics, in that if I at least stay glued to my desk for the first couple hours of the workday, and then someone calls while I’m on a bio break later on, it’s more obviously bad luck.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I think the “stay glued to my desk for the first few hours of the workday” plan is a good one! There’s a huge difference in optics between a client calling at 9:20 and you not picking up (did Cyndi step away for 5 min to get coffee, or has she not logged on at all yet?) and a client calling at 11:20am you not picking up (Cyndi’s probably getting a coffee/in the bathroom/etc. and will be back in a few minutes).

        2. the other shoe*

          I gotta say I don’t see much luck involved in WFH but still not having coffee in hand by 9am when you’re supposed to be on the clock. Unless by “luck” you mean “choosing to gamble with job requirements.” Like how a roulette aficionado attributes the state of their savings account to “bad luck at the casino”.

    2. SansaStark*

      I had the same issue (down to those 9am-on-the-dot client calls) and I finally told myself that I had to be ready to work at 8:45 having stopped by the restroom and coffee pot already.

    3. Bast*

      Like retiree1 said, I’d give it some time before you got up from your desk once clocking in. Use the restroom, make your coffee, etc., and be ready to sit for awhile before you get up again. Have all your ducks in a row. I’m not saying never use the restroom or get a glass of water, but if you clock in at 9 and are up again at 9:05, I can see how this could look either like malicious compliance or that you’re just simply late again.

    4. SEM*

      Speaking as someone who also struggles with being ready to work on time, what you are describing sounds a bit less like bad luck and a bit more like not actually being ready. Yes, you logged in on time, but if you were actually ready you’d have had your coffee with you in the first place. I’m saying this to see if it could help with a mindset shift, not to chastise you!

      For me, I really have to play games and trick myself in order to be on time. I have to get over the idea that being early is a waste of my time and convince myself that I will have a smoother day if I’m early and truly ready to go when I clock in. And if I have a smoother day, I can be more productive and be done sooner at the end of the day. It doesn’t work every day honestly.

      1. Cyndi*

        Oh, I’m very aware, and you’re welcome to chastise me because I do it plenty. I have executive dysfunction and mornings have been a really intractible issue for me for my entire life; I’m not throwing up my hands by any means, or saying this is acceptable, because it’s not and it’s caused significant problems in my life. But unfortunately this is where I’m currently at even after years of medication and optimizing my routine and playing mind games with myself, and I’m still working at it, but in the meantime I need to stay employed.

        1. Cardboard Marmalade*

          I struggle with mornings and executive dysfunction a lot, too. One thing I have found that has helped me a lot more than shame-based approaches is to try to make more room for my needs in the times and areas that I can. So for me, I’m the kind of neurodivergent who feels refueled by giving myself the time on days off to spend hours alone, hyperfocused on artistic hobbies. I still get twinges of guilt sometimes on a nice weekend when I’m not going out to socialize, but listening to and honoring my internal craving for that hyperfocus time whenever I can has really helped me then have more emotional capacity for hard deadlines and start times in the other areas of my life. I also sometimes get up ridiculously early just so I can veg around on the couch with my cat in my lap and a cup of tea before I actually have to do real stuff and get ready for my day. Again, just honoring that need for a slow start and some R&R before I face the world. I don’t know how much room there is in your schedule for stuff like this– I totally acknowledge that it’s a privilege I have in part because I don’t have any kids/elders to care for and don’t have a commute to add extra hours to my day, and because I’m an introvert blessed with many loving introvert friends who can maintain strong relationships with each other even if we don’t hang out every week. So YMMV, but as a general framework, I think the more you can think of cutting yourself more slack where you can instead of being harder on yourself, the more you will find that your mental and emotional capacity for the hard stuff will increase. Good luck!

          1. Le le lemon*

            Out of desperation: would you consider drinking a cold coffee something – that you could make the night before and put in the fridge? So quick to grab? Doesn’t have to be the best coffee of your life…like others, I think the key for good optics is to be at your computer/easily available from 9-11am, for the next couple of months, to reassure your boss. (Then make better coffee at 11am).

      2. carrot cake*

        “Yes, you logged in on time, but if you were actually ready you’d have had your coffee with you in the first place.”

        —
        THAT.

    5. I Have RBF*

      So I work remotely. I get up and do all my morning stuff, including making coffee and visiting the restroom, before I log in. The I spend my first hour at my desk, dealing with email, etc.

      The key is having all your stuff before starting work.

      If I have a bio-break at 10:30, it’s fine, because I got the urgent, “first thing” stuff dealt with.

    6. Ellis Bell*

      Oof, I remember these days when I was still getting my punctuality in order. The good news is you’ll reclaim your reputation and then you’ll be free for these little pieces of bad luck to not affect you. Think about what stuff you need to have ready in the morning and try to condense it a little, or get stuff out of the way the night before so that you’re extra ready and don’t need to leave your desk for a while. If you’re getting breakfast ready, try preparing some overnight oats the night before, use the spare time you’ve saved by not making breakfast to take a pre work bathroom break and put your coffee in a thermal mug before sitting down. That should give you a solid start.

    7. Meh*

      also you can show /trick other signs of productivity. e.g. send emails first thing so your activity is timestamped, or schedule emails ready from the previous evening to be sent at 830am.

      1. Mutually supportive*

        I wouldn’t schedule them to send , too easy to get caught out if an email lands with someone then they try to call and you aren’t there yet.

        But no harm in leaving a few unsent at the end of a day, ready to send when you first log in on the morning

    9. RagingADHD*

      Coffeemakers with a timer that you can set up the night before are very easy to find and inexpensive.

      Even without a timer, you can set the whole thing up the night before and just push the button as soon as you get up in the morning, before you go to the bathroom or do whatever your AM routine is.

      Even a Bialetti or French press can be set up the night before and completed in the morning.

      I’m unmedicated, too. You can do this. You just need to use lateral thinking and problem-solving instead of trying harder to do the same thing and get a different result (which never works).

    10. Dancing Otter*

      I don’t know if you will see this, so late, but… well, that’s kind of on point, isn’t it?

      I also have trouble being on time. Part of it’s underestimating the time required to do things, and part is getting distracted, but a big part is losing track of what time it is.

      So I live and die by setting alerts on my phone and smart watch. Need to log into a meeting at 10:00? Set an alert at 9:55 – time to grab coffee or hit the washroom, but not long enough to get side-tracked. Need to drive somewhere by 2:00? Add driving time to the appointment, adding ten or fifteen minutes to whatever estimate comes up, and an alert fifteen minutes before that.

      Does it always work? Honestly, no. But it does improve my chances of being very close if not precisely on time.

  16. TossAKoi*

    I keep debating whether to send this in but I’m paranoid about my coworker finding it, but the open thread feels a bit safer, so: What advice do y’all have for dealing with coworkers who bring up emotion unnecessarily in a work environmental? (Using gender-neutral terms/fake name for anonymity and because I don’t think gender or age is at play.)

    I have a coworker, Casey, who sometimes writes emails that emphasize their emotional response to work issues and assume bad faith in situations where that is unwarranted. Think, a piece of shared equipment is used once a month or less; once or twice in a six-month span, it is not returned to its proper place, and a chastising email expressing their “frustration” goes out to the whole team, even though this is the first time the problem has been brought up, Casey is not senior to anyone involved, and they ALSO forgot to return the equipment. Or maintenance takes a few days to fix an annoying but not threatening issue, and Casey attributes this to maintenance “not caring about us.” Or there is a week-long delay in updates on a project in which Casey plays a minor, not time-sensitive role, and they sent out a request for updates attributing the delay to “disrespect” for junior workers.

    Granted, I know for a fact that Casey has worked in bad work environments where some of these assumptions may have been justified… but I don’t think ours is one of them. Even if I agree with the actual issues, I still think most of them are too trivial to justify such an aggrieved tone! 99% of the time, someone just got busy and forgot to complete a minor task or send a “hit a snag, let you know when I have an update” email, and it almost never has a serious impact on our workload.

    I’m uncomfortable about how Casey’s emails presume personal insults, especially because we work extremely closely and I don’t want to be lumped into their attitude just because I’m affected by the same problem. When I bring up the same or similar problems, I usually try to take a more positive, solutions-oriented tone that focuses more on how the problem impacts my work, not my feelings. Our coworkers generally respond promptly and cheerfully to nudges from either of us, and do not acknowledge the “I feel insulted” sections in Casey’s emails at all.

    Is it worth me saying something? I work closest with Casey, and we are on the same level. Honestly, I also usually ignore these types of emails outright because they don’t generally have action items for me, but they make me tense, and I’m also concerned that Casey’s pessimistic attitude will have more serious impacts on our shared workload further down the line, either because they’re burning themselves out, they start to assume bad faith from me, or people start to treat Casey/our shared projects differently.

    1. Hiya*

      Casey doesn’t really sound like they would be super open and receptive to your feedback about their attitude. In one off situations, it might be worth saying (verbally, not in the email chain), “I don’t see it that way”. But other than that, don’t make her attitude your problem. IF your work does become impacted somehow, you can address that then with your manager but right now this feels like a THEM issue.

    2. EHSManager*

      In that situation, I wouldn’t say anything. If you supervised Casey, it would make sense to address it, but as a coworker, I’d just let it go.

      1. PotatoRock*

        Same
        chastising all-team emails about the staplers whereabouts are in the same bucket as passive aggressive bathroom signs – don’t be that guy, but also don’t get worked up about whoever is that guy. If the complaining is on email, you can just ignore it. If you want to say something in person, I like “huh, that definitely isn’t my experience with X team. Anyway, about the TPS report..”

    3. Grey cat*

      I agree that you’re likely not to get far if you address Casey directly. If you want to do something, you can go to their manager and let them address it. It sounds like this emails are negatively affecting you, so I’d also consider if you actually need to read them. Or if you must, could you find the pertinent part and just not read the rest of it?

      1. TossAKoi*

        I definitely have to read the emails–I can’t just not open emails from Casey since we work so closely, there’s no particular warning sign that one is going to be unnecessarily dramatic, and the complaints are often interwoven with more-pertinent stuff. But based on these comments I’m definitely going to put more effort into ignoring them.

    4. I Can't Even*

      So Casey is having a cognitive distortion in believing that there is ill intent when there is no evidence of ill intent. Since you are Casey’s coworker and not their therapist I may respond with a suggest such as “I do not believe that this is occurring due to co-workers not caring about others, if there is a problem with order of operations perhaps this is something you can explore with boss”. This will serve to identify the problem behavior and attempt to set a limit with Casey. If this is not something that Casey can accept and fly’s off the handle then this is something to talk to their supervisor about.

    5. RagingADHD*

      If Casey is discussing this with you live, either 1 on 1 or in a small group, you can just disagree mildly, along the lines of, “Oh, I don’t think that’s the case, it’s just a normal delay,” etc.

      But trying to address it as a pattern or respond to email is going to blow up. Leave it.

    6. Hyaline*

      Casey is sinking their own ship— punching holes in their credibility with overblown complaints, trashing good will with people who make honest mistakes or have different priorities for their time, and generally being negative. I would put some distance between myself and Casey and let Casey do what Casey is going to do.

    7. Juneybug*

      How does your supervisor feel about the situation? Do they have any advice how you can remain distant from your coworker while retaining your positive reputation?

      1. TossAKoi*

        I honestly have no idea! Since all of this is happening over email, I don’t usually have a chance to get an unfiltered reaction from my/our supervisor, and when she replies to the messages she just glosses over the weirdness and addresses the professional concerns cheerfully and sympathetically. Casey is genuinely a kind, well-meaning, hard-working person who just seems to spiral and send slightly overdramatic emails a few times a year, and for various reasons I don’t feel it necessarily rises to the level of my bringing this to my supervisor.

    8. Ellis Bell*

      Oh I used to work with Casey! Right down to the feeling dread that I would get lumped into people assuming we had the same attitude. Honestly the biggest issue is probably your own internal feelings of being drained by this negativity. There’s very little reason to assume other people will see you as a doppel-Casey since your own style is so different and since they’ve probably already noticed on their own that Casey is simply the office Dementor. I wouldn’t “say something” to Casey about their tone as I think that’s outside your remit, but I might “say something” if you have any context to add, or if you think Casey is speaking for you and misrepresenting you. So, if Casey says “We feel like maintenance doesn’t care about us because of x”, I might say “Actually, not sure if “us” refers to me, but that hasn’t been my experience of maintenance at all” or “Just to be clear, I don’t feel disrespected fwiw!”. Up to you if you want to say as much to Casey and ask them not to speak for you before you email the person. If they’re just talking about their own frustration, I’d let that go.

    9. peter b*

      I have a co-worker like this, but they mainly express this in smaller settings, and sometimes it’s directed at me. I wouldn’t reply on an email chain, but I’ve had success with very lightly saying, “I get your point about [genuine inconvenience] but personally I’m not worried about it [bc xyz reasons, if applicable]”. The level of support we get has changed a lot since she joined, and I took the job knowing more of the political dynamics than she did, so I try to balance affirming it’s not dire with being breezy and keeping it short and not indulging. If you’re not encountering this in direct conversations with Casey, it’s probably not going to be helpful as all the small progress I’ve seen relies on me backing up my lack of outrage/concern with handling things with visible calm and good eventual outcome, so she can trust my read on things.

    10. ecnaseener*

      If anything, you could try to find an opening to mention that you’ve noticed you get much better results when you phrase things in xyz way, but NOT in the context of talking about Casey’s approach. Not worth inviting a tirade about their hurt feelings.

  17. Productivity Pigeon*

    I feel paralyzed with shame at the thought of applying to jobs I’m not 100% qualified.

    —

    I went to a prestigious business school then worked as a management consultant, got burned out, went on a long medical leave then was bought out when the pandemic started. I wasn’t a brilliant consultant but I did a lot of non-typical consulting projects so I have a bit of odd set of experiences and due to ADHD, I have some glaring weaknesses. But for example, I did get asked to lead the regional trainee program (500 junior consultants) so I did do good work too.

    After I lost my job, l went back to college to get a new degree in a completely different field (security studies and crisis management.)
    I didn’t finish my degree for various reasons so now I’m looking for job, unfortunately with a gap of a few years in my resume.

    Logically, I know I’m not unqualified for many jobs, despite the lack of a finished degree.

    But because of the burnout and not finishing, I constantly feel like a fraud to the point I’m having a hard time applying for jobs.

    I know you should apply even when you don’t fulfill all the requirements but I get this overwhelming sense of shame and almost panic that someone will read my application and… I don’t even know. Laugh? Tell their coworkers about this delusional applicant?

    I’ve done quite a bit of recruiting and I know that’s not how things work, and even if they did, it’s not like the recruiter is going to publish a newspaper article naming their most pathetic applicants…

    Other than therapy… what do I do?
    I feel SO insecure.

    2. Helewise*

      It’s not unusual for it to take hours/days of pacing and procrastination to get job applications out there, so I get where you’re coming from. What helped me was creating master lists and templates of achievements and experience as well as portions of resumes and cover letters so I could pull from those when pulling an application together. And then you can’t wait for the feelings to be right, you just have to DO it. Feel like a fraud, and then get out there and do it scared. And I have to say – I’m hiring for a position right now that is somewhere between entry-level and early-career and the applications I’m getting are wild (and wildly incomplete, with no evidence of ANY experience, education, or aptitude for the role: think auto parts sales and daycare backgrounds applying for a role that involves policy analysis). I’m sure this varies, but from what I’ve seen in the past few cycles if you’re applying within your field and following Alison’s basic cover letter-resume advice you’ll be head and shoulders above 90%+ of applicants!

      1. Productivity Pigeon*

        That’s true, they probably do get a lot of unqualified applicants who have to apply to get unemployment and things like that.

    3. Veruca Salt*

      I’ve always worked in small (aka micro) environments, so as a semi-feral employee, I really don’t know how it works out in the “real” world. That said, how many times have you had a supervisor or colleague who seemed way less competent than you? Maybe it was their soft skills that got them there or just good ol’ fashion chutzpah. Keep that in mind as you apply. It’s probably less about checking all the boxes and more about being adaptable, curious, and willing to learn. It sounds like you are burdening yourself with unrealistic expectations. I’m sure that they get plenty of head-scratcher applicants. Instead of selling yourself short, look more dispassionately and objectively at your experience and recognize those times you did bring something special to the situation. I bet they are way more “I did do good work too” instances than your current state of mind is allowing you to acknowledge.

      1. Productivity Pigeon*

        That’s a good point.

        I’ve definitely had less-than-perfect coworkers/clients.

        Part of the difficulty is that in my hyper competitive business school and then at my consulting job (which was my first job after graduation), people were SUPER competent. I was not in the top of the pack.

        Like, my college peers are partners at McKinsey now.

        I’m not thinking of applying to those hyper competent jobs but it’s hard to separate things.

        Like you say, I was good at many parts of my jobs and I was a decent employee but I wasn’t a star.

        1. M2*

          Everyone is different. It is ok you aren’t a partner! So many people in consulting are just in consulting for a couple years, it’s normal.

          What parts of your job did you like? Until you find a FT job could you volunteer somewhere? Something to put on your resume and you’re using your skills to help others.

          I would diversify your applications- apply some entry level and some that have the years of experience you do have. Also apply to jobs for business school grads but not consulting or banking.

          Do you have a network? Contact career services age your business school and attend alumni events for networking.

          1. M2*

            I also agree with others who say have a strategy and rewards for applying, but I think getting out there and volunteering or being around people even 10 hours /week may help you feel better, help with networking and communication skills, and feel better in general. I went through something sort of similar years ago and volunteering helped me a lot and helped me realize different roles I might be interested in.

    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I mean this is in the kindest way, but from the hiring side I’m definitely not going to laugh or gossip about the applicant because I simply do not care that much. I’m trying to get through the candidates, hire, and move on. Skim, move to next round or strikethrough, out of my brain. An example of the old “don’t worry, no one cares as much as you do.”

      When I was applying for jobs, it was also helpful to remind myself that I didn’t need to be the best, hell I didn’t even need to be that great. I just had to be the best out of any given candidate pool one time.

    5. EHSManager*

      What would you tell a friend who told you they felt this way? Most likely you would tell them that they should focus on their strengths and apply for as many jobs as they can. That’s what you should do.
      And, fake it till you make it, meaning that you should pretend to feel secure and confident as you apply and interview.
      Best of luck to you!

    6. chocolate muffins*

      Maybe rewards for things you can control, like submitting applications (vs. things you can’t control, like whether you get an interview or offer)? Send an application, get a piece of candy. Send 10 applications, go for a nice walk. Or whatever. You can also give yourself rewards for stuff that feels bad, like not hearing from an organization for X amount of time after submitting an application or getting rejected. Then if you get an outcome you like it’s happy because of the outcome, and if you get an outcome you don’t like it’s happy because you can have whatever reward you picked for yourself.

      Good luck!

      2. Six Feldspar*

        I did something similar the last time I was job searching – I was really trying to break through my paralysis and fear of not getting the jobs, so I bought myself takeaway for every ten *rejections* because it showed me I was pushing through that mental block.

    7. Aggretsuko*

      I feel the same way. I think as a woman you have to be *better* because you’re already starting from lower down, plus I come from an industry that was a stickler about how you had to fulfill every single requirement.

      I don’t really have advice, though, I just don’t apply for the job if I don’t think I could do all of it.

    8. Hlao-roo*

      My suggestion is two parts:

      1) Have some sort of self-soothing strategy for in-the-moment job-searching tasks (reading job ads, clicking the “submit” button to send your application, etc.). You’ll know best what works for you, but an example could: be feel shame and panic when looking at a job ad -> say out loud “no one is laughing at me. I can survive being embarrassed.”

      2) Have some rewards for yourself! Submit a job application? Treat yourself to a fancy coffee from a coffee shop, a slice of cake, etc. Submit ten job applications? Go to your favorite park/museum/restaurant/etc.

    9. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      Advice borrowed from Dialectical Behavior Therapy and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy: give yourself permission to feel however you feel AND do the thing anyway.

      It is not “easy” — it requires extreme willpower at least the first few/several/many times, both to allow yourself to sit with and feel an intensely unpleasant emotion instead of trying to avoid or stop or justify or argue with it, and then to take an action that goes counter to how you feel.

      If you can do it one time (submit one application for a role you feel unqualified for), give yourself major props for the strength of will you’re building by doing this practice. Celebrate your success — the success is submitting an app; whatever happens after that is out of your control and irrelevant for now, so do your best not to even think about it. Think about how you did what you needed to even though it was hard, and you deserve to be proud of yourself for that. Take a short break to celebrate and be proud — it boosts willpower.

      Then do it again.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah this. If we all listened to our Imposter Syndrome, nothing would get done. Aiming to master the feelings first is understandable, but sometimes it doesn’t happen until after you do the actions you’re avoiding.

    10. Almost A Shrimp*

      Aw, try to be easier on yourself! You don’t sound like a fraud AT ALL! As someone else with ADHD and a not so traditional career trajectory, I think I can understand how you’re feeling, though. I have some gaps because I got fired, probably due in large part to my then-untreated ADHD. But I do have some really unusual experience that has turned out to be very valuable at times. It sounds like you also have that kind of experience.
      Try thinking of the unfinished degree as not really a degree. Reframe it so it’s however many years/credits of stuff you learned and how it enhances your qualifications. An unfinished degree is better than no education at all. It has value!
      My friend in HR has some great stories about people who have applied to jobs she’s posted. Even the weirdest ones weren’t really that weird, so I’m sure no one is judging your application as harshly as you might think they are.

    11. Mockingjay*

      Keep in mind that many job postings are laundry lists, copied and pasted from previous job descriptions, with a handful of unicorn wishes from the hiring manager. No one will meet 100% of the criteria. (Hint: go to the company website and look at other job postings. You’ll see what is standard company blurb, repeated in all the listings; the rest is usually the important job details.)

      If a job looks interesting, apply! You’ll be able to ask for specifics in phone screens and the interview. It can be an adventure – the job may turn out to be really interesting and in line with what you are looking for. Or it can be a dud and give you a funny story – “Company X had the wildest job posting – they advertised for an engineer, but really wanted an accountant!”

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        THIS. I think of a job posting as “this is everything I want from a fantasy perfect hire” and I’m not necessarily expecting every candidate to tick every box. The more I hire, the more I truly believe interviews and hiring in general is a two way street where the prospect and the manager have to decide if they are a good “match.”

        I found when I was intimidated by applications (by the way, including the one for my current job) it helped to remember that many OTHER applicants wouldn’t necessarily wait until they met each qualification to apply. Men in particular are more likely than women to apply with only some of the requested skills, research tells us. Rather than competing against the full text of the job posting, you are competing against the APPLICANT POOL and not everyone in the applicant pool has the required skills. That one really helped me combat the fears of not being good enough.

    12. Arrietty*

      I’m quite new to hiring but I’ve had a fair few applications from people who weren’t qualified for the role (actually, the majority weren’t, because it’s niche role in an emerging profession) and the only time I laughed was when the application form was returned completely blank. And then I emailed to let them know and give them a chance to resubmit (they did not).

      I agree that the only way out is through; apply anyway and survive the process.

    13. Minneapolis*

      Imposter-syndrome workarounds I’ve used:

      -Do the first draft of your cover letter as if it were a letter of recommendation for someone else. Heck, even change the name. Write it about an average white male (if that’s not you). What experience does THIS person have that fits this job?

      -If you keep a folder of kudos or kind words you’ve gotten over the years (I know lots of us do!), spend some time in there. :) THAT person is applying for a job, not some pitiful unknown.

      -Big glass of wine always helps.

      We’re rooting for you.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yes to the “write the cover letter as though it were for someone else”! I find that really helps me get the words going, if I imagine I was talking about my best friend.

    14. Cedrus Libani*

      I have a weird hack: take on a persona and LARP your way through it.

      You should meet my friend Todd. He’s objectively nothing special, but he’s good enough, and he’s wealthy, athletic, and handsome. Todd has the unassailable core belief that everything will work out for him, and why wouldn’t he? It always does work out for him! By coincidence, his resume is exactly the same as yours. Next time you sit down with the job listings, try letting Todd apply for those jobs instead.

    15. Project Maniac-ger*

      I’ve been involved in hiring a variety of positions and always, allllwayyys there is someone who I swear read 0% of the job description because they are wildly unqualified. I promise you you will not be the most unqualified candidate.

      Job descriptions, even the “required skills” section, are a wishlist (except things like medical school degree for a doctor – legal requirement things).

      Good job searches take some effort, so have grace with yourself. If you have to do a speed round of applications then lay in the yard for an hour do it. If you can only get one application done a day, great, that’s better than zero.

  18. Valerie Loves Me*

    Started a new job a couple of months ago and strongly believe my supervisor has ADHD. They’re easily distracted, can’t engage in conversation that’s more than 15 minutes or so without getting antsy. Thinks they’ve shared something with me or that I know something, which I have not heard or don’t know. Gets frustrated if there’s back and forth or multiple questions. And oddly, answers straightforward questions with circular answers 

    Me: Does Director know about the delay with project X? 
    Them: Director initiated project X.
    (Remember…. frustration with multiple questions)

    I don’t expect to be able to change this and I’m trying to provide more overview and helpful, but brief information in my communication with them that help support them and myself (also CYA). But if anyone has tips on how they’ve successfully worked with similar personalities, I’d appreciate it! 

    1. persimmon*

      Oooh, that’s so frustrating. I have a colleague who does the same thing. I usually just keep asking until I get an answer (so in your example: “Thanks, do they know about the delay?” or “Have they been told about the delay?”). It also might be that they think they’re answering the question: the thought process on their end might be “They initiated the project so of course they are aware of the delay.”

      Rephrasing also helps for me sometimes, like “Can you bring me the item?” “Sure, where is it?” “I need it before this afternoon” “Okay, I’ll go get it from [place]” “No, it’s at [other place]”

      This might not be great advice if they get frustrated with repeating questions though. Depending on the question, there might be someone else you could get the information from? A coworker who’s more used to interpreting?

    2. WorkerDrone*

      I made myself very annoying by doing this, which ultimately didn’t help the relationship, but DID help me get clear answers, so fair warning.

      What I did was:

      A) Ask all of my questions via email. This way I had a timestamped log of all the times I asked for information to cover my butt in case I was perceived as the one delaying the work.

      B) Only asked ONE question per email. The question was both in the subject line and in the email itself. This was part of why I was so annoying; five questions meant five different emails, sometimes coming right in a row.

      C) If the question wasn’t answered, I copied/pasted the question and re-sent it as a new email, not as a reply to the prior email. This was the other part of why I was so annoying; five questions meant five emails, multiplied by however many times it took me to get an actual answer. Five questions could end up being as many as 12-13 emails.

      D) Regularly requested updates on projects I needed to be in the loop on via email – at least once a week. Again, one update per email, not a blanket email. If there wasn’t a clear response (i.e. “no updates on this”), I re-sent it as a new email.

      I just had to accept that my manager found me annoying and frustrating to work with. I also found my manager to be annoying and frustrating to work with, so I thought it was fair enough.

      This manager did try to ding me on a performance review, but I went to HR with all my time-stamped requests for information and all the non-responses I had received and was able to get someone else to do my performance review for that year.

      I would not suggest this method unless it truly is pulling teeth to get what you need. I only resorted to it out of desperation, but it did work.

    3. EHSManager*

      I had a supervisor like this and started sending all of my questions by email, with multiple questions numbered. Something like:
      I’m starting to work on Project X and have the following questions:
      1. My plan is to have this completed by Friday. Please let me know if you need it sooner.
      2. In order to complete this, I need (data) by Wednesday. Can you get me this data by Wednesday or should I ask (someone else)?
      3. I completed x portion but can’t move forward until I receive y portion.

      Then, when she came to me and said she needed to know the status, or told me that she had no idea I was waiting for information, I could forward the email as reference.

      It was frustrating but worked most of the time.

      1. Bitte Meddler*

        I had to do something similar with a past manager. I quickly learned that I needed to add the number of questions at the top of the email.

        So, in your example, I would say, “I’m starting to work on Project X and have the following questions (there are *three* questions in total).” Because he would answer the first question and then send his response. Then I would reply with, “What about the other questions?” And he would say, “Oops,” and then only answer Question #2.

      2. Anoon*

        Early in my career a manager told me that my doing this was “managing up” a term I had not heard of at the time.

        I am in senior management now and from this end I still send and appreciate receiving emails with bulleted or numbered lists that I can reply to in-line. This is actually the m.0. for a lot of my colleagues, a bit of a house style (gets really annoying when more that two people are in the chain, though– “see my responses in blue” followed by another person “added my responses in green” until it is overwhelmed by color and buried deep in the chain… dont do that!).

        It doesn’t always work, e.g., recently I sent such an email to my boss with about 5 questions in it and she responded “Yes!” (to which question??) but I know that she is is super busy and more than a little overwhelmed and it works most of the time (and when it doesn’t, I give her a quick call).

    4. Admin of Sys*

      Email is definitely useful, as other folks have said. For the mislinked answers and questions, (which might be audio processing, lord knows that catches me out all the time) – I find it’s useful to have preloaded context? Something like “Project X’s delay is going to cause issues with release, and The director is very invested in project X, who is responsible for giving them updates on the new timeline? ” In general, avoiding yes or no questions is helpful, because it tends to require more processing, which gives me time to narrow in on what was actually asked.

    5. Anon for this*

      As a line manager with ADHD who feels a little too seen by this, I would second the suggestions about email, and clearly bulleted or numbered questions. I’ve also been asking direct reports to have a list ready in a shared space of specific questions or what’s on their mind before we meet, so I can 1) start thinking about it and 2) have something to refer back to if I feel myself veering off track.

    6. Redaktorin*

      As a person with ADHD, I’ve never really heard of not being able to answer a direct question as a symptom? The criticism I usually get is that I’m far too direct in both my questions and answers.

      Just want to encourage you to not assume a person is ND just because they’re very annoying.

  19. chocolate muffins*

    Work related joys thread! I had a marvelous, very affirming conversation with a colleague/mentor. What made you happy at work this week?

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      I had a younger colleague come in and ask me a “dad question” about her car. It made me feel really good that she was comfortable asking and that I could actually answer it since I’m not the most car savvy guy.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Our quality and education team has set up education, training and demo sessions for one of my teams every week for the next two months. (I’d be even happier if they’d done this four months ago, but that horse is out of the barn, so I’m being optimistic about going forward from current state.) I’m really happy with what I’ve seen of their education plans so far and I think it’s going to be great for my team in the long run, but definitely an adjustment.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Oooh, nice. We got ice cream today, which should actually have been another one for me.

        This week was just a planning week and so on for us, but we had 1st years in today and an ice cream van to welcome them to the school and teachers were invited to have some ice cream too.

        Yeah, it’s been a good week.

        Classes start on Monday for us.

    4. Irish Teacher.*

      A few things this week.

      Firstly, I got the supervision periods I wanted. Background: in addition to the classes we teach, teachers in Ireland have to be available for cover for a number of periods. In our school, we rank our free periods in order of which we are most willing to be available, but since like, nobody is going to offer up the first class on Monday morning if they have it free, you don’t always get the ones you want.

      Anyway, my timetable isn’t completed as I am a learning support teacher and it will depend when students need support, so I put my 1st two choices as the last two periods on Friday, which are not filled yet and then the last two periods on Tuesday, which are similar. And I got all of these. Unlike first periods, when you have to be in because you don’t know if somebody will be sick or delayed on the way to work by traffic issues, I will be able to go home early on days when I am not needed for cover.

      Also, although my timetable has not been completed, the classes I have so far look really nice.

      And my teacher’s diary this year is in my absolute favourite colour.

    5. BellaStella*

      HR dealing with stuff as I noted in a comment above. Getting clarity on a deliverable. Seeing lovely colleagues.

    7. A Girl Named Fred*

      I actually got up the nerve to tell my supervisor that I’m interested in the position my coworker is vacating in a couple weeks! They don’t know whether they’re refilling it yet (which, please for the love of everything DO refill it, whether it’s with me or not!) but I at least put my name out there as an option and I feel good about that.

    8. Anax*

      I’m still having a wonderful time at my new job! I had a really nice chat with my PM this week, who is apparently ecstatic to have me, and I’ve been moved into a sort of deputy-manager role on my team, doing QC and organizing so the team lead can work on other duties.

      It’s really nice! Three months in, and I’m so happy and relieved to be here, after having a hell of a spring at oldJob.

    9. Almost A Shrimp*

      One of my projects is going super well! This one is particularly close to my heart since it’s a treatment for mental health disorders (I did my masters thesis on genetics and BPD/MDD/schizophrenia and responses to treatments) that I think would be a such an amazing thing for a lot of people! And the client is awesome to work with, so I’m happy to help them succeed!

    10. Justin*

      I mentioned this above but I’m actually encouraged that my colleagues on a hiring team took the work very seriously and weren’t inherently swayed by a job candidate’s mission adherence. No idea who ends up being hired but at previous jobs I’ve seen people hired for how much they care about the work only, and I realize now that that works only if you pay poorly like my previous jobs did.

      Just made me feel like I’m a place with, as Logan Roy would say, Serious People.

    11. But maybe not*

      After trying to complete projects for two YEARS with internal service units, we finally just went ahead and hired a consultant. We’re in week two of project meetings and it’s heaven to not have to project manage both MY department (the client) and their team.

    12. Hillary*

      I really like my startup’s new website. And my business partner likes it too even though it’s replacing one he designed. I can’t wait to launch in two weeks.

    13. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I dislike my job, but this week I am so thankful for the people. I had a big life upheaval that led to a mental health crisis– which hasn’t happened since well before I had this job– and I had no shame crying in front of my boss, who was extremely sympathetic. I also have a ton of flexibility with my schedule, which meant I could do what I needed to do, and I was fully confident that no one would care if I was late to work or had to miss a meeting. I’m going on a two-week vacation very soon, so the timing is terrible, but my team has been incredibly supportive.

    14. Garbanzo*

      A new person started this week and I really think she’s going to be a good fit for the role/team/company. I know it’s early, but the last person in the role had an aversion to doing the actual tasks needed and caused me extra work. This person is comfortable doing the tasks and has been pleasant to train.

    15. Sled dog mama*

      I’m on a PIP and it’s going really well, I think I will be able to meet all the milestones and my boss told me yesterday in our check in that everyone has confidence in me to do the job so this is mostly about showing that I can deal with my depression/anxiety and not let it take over my life again. I also brought up that I’m struggling a little with scheduling therapy appointments (nature of the job, sometimes we don’t get off at a consistent time and Murphy’s law says it will always be when I have a therapy appointment) he encouraged me to just tell my site supervisor that I need to leave at X time for personal reasons and that I will be certain everything is done in a timely fashion (it’s complicated but we’re contractors so I have a site supervisor who isn’t actually my supervisor).
      I’m incredibly lucky to have a boss who can have that conversation and make me feel like that’s a reasonable idea and I can accomplish it rather than feeling like an idiot for not just saying I have to leave and everything will be done before it’s due.

    16. Jay (no, the other one)*

      A colleague started a call this morning with “I was so happy to see your name on the schedule! I love working with you.”

    17. Six Feldspar*

      I’ve been trying to stand at work more this week, and discovered that I tend to groove absentmindedly to whatever song is stuck in my head. Now that I’m aware I’ve noticed it sitting as well, but more so when standing!

    18. allathian*

      I’m getting a new manager on Monday. I suggested adding something to the agenda for our new team’s meetings. She agreed and I also got a few thumbs up from my new teammates (I know them because we used to work on adjacent teams, but now 3 teams will be consolidated to 2).

  20. Lost at Sea*

    After several years I successfully completed a long running project. I was then moved to a much lower position in both title and pay. This wasn’t because of poor performance (I asked) but because of rules in our organization and indifference from upper level leadership. Since then I’ve had a few people offer to let me continue doing the higher level work at my lower title and pay. I think they mean well, but I’m not interested in going above and beyond currently. Any suggestions on professional ways to decline, particularly to the upper leadership who put through the demotion?

    1. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      “This wasn’t because of poor performance (I asked) but because of rules in our organization”

      What kind of rules does your organization have that say, “When someone successfully completes a long running project, he/she shall immediately be moved to a much lower position in both title and pay”? And how does your organization justify such rules? Do these rules apply to everyone who successfully completes a long running project?

      1. Lost at Sea*

        The work didn’t have a permanent position attached so once the work was done it was assumed to be over. I was on an upgraded contract which they ended early and returned me to my original position. Leadership does have flexibility on this that they’ve used for other employees, but the decision was made by a member of the leadership team who has a terrible reputation across the organization for treating employees poorly. I had been branching out to work with other teams, which is part of why people are reaching out to ask for my help with new things that come up.

    2. Pay no attention...*

      “I would only be interested in returning to my previous job duties if the title and pay were also part of the package. If an opportunity to be reinstated opens up, please let me know.”

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      “That’s above my current pay grade.” No need to sugarcoat 6 they know what they did.

      1. M2*

        This. People did something similar to my spouse, although they got a promotion and only slight pay raise but were meant to now run multiple departments. Then there were the asks to do things for even more departments.

        My spouse has nothing to do with marketing but ended up doing a big marketing campaign that was successful. Then they found the head marketing person, my spouse didn’t get more $ and now is meant to keep doing marketing work!

        My spouse had enough and now doesn’t do anything more than their actual job and even then they ask “is this good for me and my family?” If the answer is no they don’t do it. Marketing questions and questions from other departments now just get forwarded. You can’t do everything.

        You should apply to for other roles. I’m sorry they did this to you

    4. lost academic*

      Your management sucks and isn’t going to change.

      Don’t go above and beyond without getting something in return, and that’s not a verbal promise for the future. Some places, sure, you need to try and get the future benefit, but you know the ending of this story here.

    5. Sara K*

      I would suggest something along the lines of “I’m not sure if you’re aware but the role where I was doing (thing they’ve asked you to do) has finished up and I’m back doing (your original duties/role). If you need someone to do (thing they’ve asked) you’ll need to talk to (your manager/someone senior who is responsible for moving you back to your lower position).”

      The only way to make it clear that the work you were doing is necessary and should be re-instated is to make it the problem of the person who thought it wasn’t necessary.

  21. Hello!*

    I’m trying to process my feelings on something that happened. I’m sorry for being so general but with so many people reading AAM and the seriousness of the situation….

    I was assigned a once in a lifetime work project. I was thrilled to find out I would be working with someone I admired professionally. Let’s call them Bill.

    Bill abruptly resigned the other week. It turns out that while Bill didn’t do anything illegal he did something that was big time morally corrupt. Given the industry we’re in and bill’s actions it was probably best he left.

    I am having a hard time comprehending he wasn’t on that pedestal I thought. (Substitute any adjective) – he royally messed up. How could someone be so naive to think their situation and thoughts wouldn’t be found out. I’m so angry at his actions; I’m sorry for bill’s beautiful family who came by when the team worked late; selfishly I keep thinking can this project continue and very confusingly feel bad for Bill with his downfall. Apparently this is the first time his situation was publically found out but this moral corruption has gone on for years – he just hid his feeling to get the benefits and perks from the project. How do you deal with someone you supported professionally is not the person you thought they were. It’s all a big scandal now in our company.

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      OOF. I’m sorry for all of this. I think it is important to remind yourself that what you saw of/from Bill isn’t all of Bill. People aren’t always the same as they present themself and they can do a great job presenting themself publicly so many are unaware of the other side.

    2. NotRealAnonForThis*

      I think (this is from personal experienced, I am definitely not a therapist but should probably call one most days) that understanding and accepting that “his fooling of me is not a reflection of me” is huge. Because it really isn’t a reflection on you that you, and a lot of other professionals, were fooled.

      1. Venus*

        Yes, in my experience this is a huge part of the weird feelings afterward. I’ve worked in a couple situations where someone who was very well regarded did something illegal (sufficiently illegal that they were charged legally and found guilty). The people who knew them well were really confused and questioned themselves a lot, despite the fact that they had good reason to put the person on a pedestal – both situations that immediately came to mind were for people who were really smart and had many years of unusually good work – and had no reason to doubt.

        Take care of yourself Hello!

      2. Arrietty*

        Agree – it is a GOOD thing to be a person capable of trust and who assumes positive intention. It strongly suggests that you’re a person who can be trusted and whose intentions are good.

    3. Goddess47*

      You are allowed to mourn the person you thought Bill was… go through those stages of grief and, hopefully, you will come out on the other side.

      Sorry this happened to you. Good luck.

    4. Aggretsuko*

      I relate to this. In my hobby life, I worked with a director that actually directed (you laugh, but in my experience most don’t) and would give me good parts where almost nobody will. He got fired a few months ago for divey behavior. He’d had An Incident many years ago, people thought he’d shaped up, and apparently… not. I didn’t have him on a pedestal, but I did like the dude and I don’t approve of the behavior, but I’m also sorry for my personal loss on finding out someone I liked was a bad egg all along.

    5. Householder*

      Nobody is who you think they are. They’re not even who they think they are. Everyone is human, complicated, often contradictory, and prone to making poor choices in the right circumstance, sometimes with far reaching consequences. It’s just something to accept and move on. It doesn’t mean you missed some warning sign, or you were somehow at fault for admiring the admirable things about Bill.

    6. Hyaline*

      Ooooof that’s so hard! Definitely a case study in the genre of “never meet your heroes” with an extra layer of it actually having an impact on your work and day to day life. A few thoughts in no good order:

      1) It’s absolutely no reflection on you, your judgment, your work, or your character that Bill did what he did and that you didn’t “figure him out” before it came out. None.
      2) Related, if anyone tries to lump you or anyone else in with him, they are clodhoppers and don’t deserve to have opinions. I doubt this will happen and if it does I bet it will be shut down very quickly, so don’t fret over it.
      3) Good stuff he did was still good stuff he did. People are complicated. Assholes can do good work. Ethical clown shows can have good contributions to projects. So, if he did foundational work for your project, or even for the field, that’s still useful and usable, don’t feel wrong or guilty about using it. Obviously this is variable and a “verify before trusting” situation if his ethical breach had anything to do with his work, but don’t feel like you can’t separate, say, that excellent report from 2022 that’s informing your project from In Reality Bill Was Kinda A Douchebag.

    7. goddessoftransitory*

      There’s nothing selfish in wondering about the project, by the way! It is very important to you personally and professionally–Bill’s actions affected you directly. Even if his offense wasn’t directed at you personally the fallout hit you.

    8. Part time lab tech*

      Sometimes it’s good to remember that people code switch. I sometimes read articles about colleagues defending sleazy people. The colleagues haven’t seen the bad behaviour because sleaze is not in a position of power over them and is not attracted to the colleague so colleagues can’t believe sleaze would do such a thing.
      The sleaze did do it though but it’s not a reflection on the colleague that they didn’t pick up on it. The sleeze had no reason to express the bad behaviour to colleague.

  22. Permanent pls?*

    I just spoke to a recruiter who reached out with a 3 month full time contract role that has the potential to turn permanent.

    I’m happy enough in my current role in the short term but can see myself growing unhappy in it as time goes on (no growth opportunities, staff shortage following retirements, the 10% of my role I dislike growing to take up more of my time). So I’d like to get out eventually but not risk it for something that could end in 3 months.

    The recruiter said she would strongly recommend the company interview me (likely next week) and I’m trying to figure out if there’s anything I could ask them then to sus out the actual likelihood of a permanent role. Any suggestions?

    1. pally*

      You can ask them why they aren’t directly hiring for this position. Do they like to “try before they buy”, or is there no space in the budget to make this a permanent position?

    2. TCO*

      I don’t know what you have to lose by directly asking them about the likelihood of the job turning permanent. You could also ask what percentage of their contract hires have turned permanent over the last few years.

      You really don’t have anything to lose here. You aren’t looking to leave and you haven’t even looked at job openings yet. This company wants to meet you. You hold a lot of power here, including the freedom to walk away without second thought, and so you shouldn’t tiptoe around the issues that would be deal-breakers for you.

    3. Contracting101*

      You can ask, but I don’t know how reliable an answer you’ll get if the answer is anything beyond “we’ll consider it when the contract runs out”. It’s not that common for contracts to turn permanent (although it does happen) so you should evaluate it with a default lens of 3 month contract.

  23. feline overlord's chief vassal*

    I have a bachelor’s degree in a STEM field from a prestigious university, and two master’s degrees. My GPA’s for my two master’s degrees are 4.0 and 3.9. I want to show this off on my resume; some people will notice and be impressed. Thus I have in my resume something like this:

    First University, Night School – GPA: 3.9
    Master of Science in Subject 1

    Second University 2, Night School – GPA: 4.0
    Master of Arts in Subject 2

    Very Impressive Undergrad University, The College
    Baccalaureate in Some STEM Field

    A friend who was kind enough to give me blunt feedback on my resume noticed that I don’t give a GPA for my undergrad degree. He said that it was “conspicuously” absent.

    It’s not that my undergrad GPA was that bad; it’s that the university has some radical notions (or did in the 1960’s, when they “reformed” the grading system) and they don’t really DO grade point averages. I’ll link to the university’s official explanation in a comment.

    There are non-standard, unofficial ways to calculate a GPA from the transcript. But I’m concerned that if I calculate a number in an unofficial way, someone who knows about this university’s policies is going to call bullshit, and doubt the truthfulness of my resume overall.

    Is it that glaring if I leave off the undergrad GPA? Are people going to think I have something to hide? Does it look sloppy? Can I just put “grades – good” or something like that in place of GPA for that one?

    Surely there’s some way to show off how academically driven I was as an adult, when getting my master’s degree, without unfairly implying bad things about myself as an undergrad?

      1. Go Bruno*

        lol I was going to say, sounds like Brown. I don’t think even a lot of Brown grads know about the GPA thing (and also, I’ve heard they will calculate it for grad schools that are sticklers about it.) Plus, they somehow figure out who gets Phi Beta Kappa…I’d say it’s probably fine to calculate. But as an alum, I’ve found that the name is enough to open doors to people who care about that kind of thing. Unless your grad schools are known for their difficulty such that a 3.9 or 4.0 is wildly impressive, I’d leave GPA off altogether.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        Isn’t that kind of well-known about Brown? Like I know Brown doesn’t really do grade point averages and I don’t even know what state Brown is in or…anything else about it. So I assumed most people in the US would know that Brown grades are a bit different.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          In other words, I don’t think it would look like you have something to hide, if people are familiar with the university or could check it out.

        2. Aggretsuko*

          I worked in academia for years, have a relative that went to Brown, and I had never heard of this. So I don’t think it’s a standard thing people know about Brown.
          I agree that it stands out that you don’t list one, but a disclaimer about Brown and their lack of calculations might be required there.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Did your grad schools award cum laudes or other honors? It’s not always done, but MS cum laude … doesn’t look as jarring to me as the numbers do.

      1. feline overlord's chief vassal*

        One of them gave me a prize for having the highest GPA in my graduating class (the 4.0). I have a medal on my TV credenza. I think that to explain that, though, would be much wordier and take so much more time to parse– recruiters spend milliseconds per resume these days, want something instantaneously comprehensible. Neither degree program mentioned a cum laude award; maybe because I did both these degree programs part-time? (While also working, raising a special-needs kid, etc., of course.)

      2. Higher Ed Admin*

        Many, many schools do not do Latin honors at the grad level because you’re supposed to be performing higher to begin with. At the undergrad level, Cs get degrees. At the grad level, less than a B average can land you on academic probation.

    3. Banana Pyjamas*

      Could you write Est. # or Appx. #? Anyone who knows won’t bat an eye, and I imagine anyone who doesn’t would ask.

    4. Cyndi*

      I would leave off all the GPAs. I think getting two masters degrees is more than enough evidence that you were highly academically driven, and putting GPAs on your resume at all gives the opposite impression of someone who’s building their resume around academics because they lack “real world” work experience. Which may be true–your experience level isn’t clear from your comment–but even so I would just leave them out.

      3. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        Agree.

        Even when candidates are evaluated in part on academic skills –my University department has some roles like that — we have other ways of assessing those skills and I still don’t want to see GPA on a resume or CV.

      4. Rex Libris*

        When someone lists their GPA and overly focuses on their academic achievements, it can give the impression that either A) They don’t have any professional achievements to highlight or B) They think academic success equals work success, which can come across as a bit naive.

        1. Rex Libris*

          For what it’s worth, I finished my master of science with a 4.o and have never felt the need to put it on a resume, even fresh from grad school.

      5. Hyaline*

        Honestly, this was my gut reaction, too. You list the masters’; that’s enough info without the GPA. (And in my experience…well, most people in grad school have high GPAs. It’s not to undervalue your work and accomplishment, but it’s not something that will truly, IMO, stand out.)

      6. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        Hard agree. As a hiring manager that stuff is meaningless to me since I don’t know anything about academic standards from college to college or what the grading criteria was. Plus we’ve all known people who did extremely well in school and it didn’t necessarily translate to skills in a workplace setting.

        You should be very proud of your hard work and great grades! But unless you’re applying for academic work it isn’t really something that can help me make the kind of decision a resume is designed to do.

    5. Reba*

      I don’t think this a big deal that needs a solution. You went to a prestigious undergrad and performed well in grad programs; the message is getting conveyed.

      1. UpstateDownstate*

        Agreed. I would’t list GPA. I also haven’t seen that asked in online applications for years now. Just skip it.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      As someone who got two masters degrees as an adult, at the same time, while working full time — it is highly unlikely that your GPA matters at all, and “academically driven” is only so relevant to your working career.

    7. Productivity Pigeon*

      I think the schools will speak for themselves, and you can take the GPAs off entirely.

      However, I also don’t think your candidacy will stand or fall on not having GPA listed for undergrad.

    8. snowdog*

      What is the timing of your 2 Master’s degrees and undergrad? If you have had multiple jobs since then I would argue GPA is pretty irrelevant even though it does show you were academically driven.

    9. Jessica*

      I’m in academia in the liberal arts, so maybe my perspective doesn’t apply here, but I wouldn’t be impressed by a 3.9 and a 4.0 GPA in a master’s program. From my experience, most students got an A or A- grade, and a B+ was reserved for students who were seriously not meeting expectations. It’s not grade inflation so much as it is a different purpose for grades — the true feedback/evaluation comes from professors much more directly engaging with your work, and the grade is sort of just an external marker to the world that the student met expectations.
      It looks like your resume is impressive enough to just list your schools and degrees, no need to add the night school designation or the GPA.

      1. chocolate muffins*

        I agree – GPA does not really matter in grad school and a high one isn’t impressive (at the grad level, I’d be more impressed by publications, funding, etc.). Also, I am an academic and did not know that Brown doesn’t calculate GPA, so to me, no undergrad GPA + high grad school GPA might suggest someone who did relatively poorly as an undergrad student and doesn’t really understand academic norms, because it is very rare to list grad school GPA for anything. So I would take off all the GPAs for all degrees.

      2. Juanita*

        I’m in academia in STEM, and agree with Jessica—in my department, undergraduate GPA actually matters more to us in the hiring process than graduate GPA, for the reason Jessica stated (unless your graduate GPA is very low, like below 3.0—which we would find out because we request transcripts at a later stage in the hiring process). As a measure of graduate school success, we prefer to look at your paid teaching assistantships, research assistantships, and the stature of the professors who are writing your rec letters or serving as references. (Most master’s students in my field don’t have journal publications.)

        FWIW, I also went to Ivies and work at one now, and didn’t realize Brown didn’t calculate GPA—but if your resume came across my desk, I definitely wouldn’t reject it for lack of GPA! If you became a finalist, I would just reach out and ask you about it.

        TLDR – don’t worry about it.

        1. Juanita*

          Adding a note to say that regardless of whether you list your graduate GPA or not, you *can* definitely mention the 4.0 GPA prize on your resume, in an “Awards and recognition” section, or in a bullet point under the name of your master’s program. I would list it as something like:
          – Awarded [Name of prize, or simply “class prize”] for graduating with the highest GPA among a class of ## [number of graduates in the class].

        2. Almost A Shrimp*

          Oh man, this is such a blow to my ego. I graduated with a BS and a 2.2 GPA, which obviously is terrible. Got my MS 10 years later from a really good (not Ivy-good, though) with a 3.8. I thought I had redeemed myself, academically lol

          1. peter b*

            I think getting the graduate degree at all is proof you grew and improved, and made a very purposeful effort to do so!

          2. Juanita*

            Well, hiring in academia/higher ed (for research and faculty positions, at least) is definitely not normal, compared to hiring in other fields! In reality, I don’t think undergrad GPA matters at all as a predictor of someone’s future success (in academia or outside it), especially ~5+ years later. But *insert shrug emoji* academia is weird. (FWIW, I learned after I was hired that I almost didn’t get an offer – and was already a second choice candidate, only receiving an offer after someone else declined – because I had C+ and B- grades in undergrad classes related to the discipline in which I now work. 8 years and 3 promotions later… hopefully I have proved my point above.)

          3. Project Maniac-ger*

            Nope, it’s still something to be proud of! what folks aren’t saying about high gpas is *of those who finish.* like a form of survivor bias. The accomplishment is finishing the master’s degree, because you wouldn’t have finished if you didn’t perform well.

    10. allx*

      I don’t think it matters or is glaring that the undergrad GPA is missing. And it can be explained to those who are not aware of the no-letter/number grading system of the school if asked. And if the 2 masters degrees are in the area of the current job search, then the GPAs for those are relevant information’ not so much the undergrad.

      I do hesitate at seeing “night school” added to the degree line. I went to night school myself for two advanced degrees in my profession (JD and LLM), and understand the impulse (see how hard I worked and how dedicated I was), but I personally believe there is a bias against night school attendance rather than it being a plus. To me, it is the kind of thing that might be good to bring up in an interview or in a cover letter. But I would leave the night school notation off. If you decide to leave it on, the way I addressed when it came up in my early job searches was to say “my mortgage and bills didn’t go away when I decided to pursue [degree], so I kept my job and went to night school” followed by how challenging it was and how excellent I did. Good luck to you.

      2. Anoon*

        Yep, I thought your friends comment was going to be about “night school.” I would delete that and the GPAs.

      3. Cj*

        I agree that there is a bias against night school, and I don’t understand why. in my case, I went to college for two and a half years starting right out of high school. I had already switched my major a couple of times, and still wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, so I took a break from school.

        I had had enough accounting in college that I was able to get a job at a CPA firm, and decided I want to be a CPA. so I started taking night classes.

        Those classes had the same Professors, used the same textbooks, and the same exams as the daytime classes. also, about 80% of the students in the night classes that I took were traditional, full-time students. it just happened to work out better for their schedule, or they needed the class and it was the only one they could register for because the day time ones were full. so I really don’t get the bias.

        I would leave off the GPAs though. as other people have commented, it shows a lack of understanding that school is not the same as work. and as one person mentioned, I might be worried that if hired this person would be constantly bringing up their academic achievements at work.

    11. Yes And*

      Speaking as a hiring manager who has reviewed a lot of resumes, if I was looking at a person who graduated from Brown and has two relevant masters degrees, that’s impressive enough. I can’t imagine a situation in which knowing their grad school GPA would move the needle one bit. If anything, someone including their GPA when they’re more than a year out of school signals, “This is someone who doesn’t understand how hiring works and/or might flaunt their academic credentials in disruptive or unproductive ways.” I’d just leave it off.

    12. EHSManager*

      I’d just leave it as is. If an interviewer asks you about it, you have a perfect answer about the grading system at the time.

    13. Jenna Webster*

      As a hiring manager, I would find it odd to have your GPA listed. It isn’t a factor in hiring, and I don’t know how rigorous the programs were, so it mostly just seems a bit pretentious. It wouldn’t be a factor in your favor for me.

    14. Random Academic Cog*

      I would probably raise an eyebrow at a GPA, especially from graduate degrees. It’s really not relevant to most work contexts and it feels a bit pretentious. A law degree and you’re applying as a lawyer for your first law role? Sure, might be relevant. Medical degree and applying for a fellowship? OK. Can’t think of much else where it would help rather than hurt. Most contexts you’d come across negatively and we’d worry you’d be a know it all with an inability to take feedback from “lesser mortals” – basically, not worth the risk of hiring.

  24. persimmon*

    How do you guys stay motivated when you’re leaving a job? I gave my notice this Monday and ever since then I’ve had the hardest time keeping focused. Things are getting done, but slower than they should be and I think it’s because some part of my brain is saying “It won’t be my problem in three weeks, so who cares?”

    I guess it could just be the burnout catching up with me but the timing is frustrating. I /should/ be working harder to get everything wrapped up and documented, but it’s difficult. I sit down to really work and the next thing I know I’m either staring into space or on AAM.

    1. birder in the backyard*

      I don’t know if this applies, but keep in mind that you don’t owe EXTRA work when you’re leaving a job. You can either do your job as usual OR prepare documents for the next person OR bring a few of your projects to a close while ignoring the less urgent ones. But it’s unreasonable for you to be expected to do all three.

      1. persimmon*

        That’s good to keep in mind, thank you!

        My problem comes in the fact that I’m the only one remotely qualified to do what I’m doing and since we’re on a hiring freeze I probably won’t be replaced for who knows how long. So I’m motivated (or I should be motivated) to get as much cleared out as possible and to record as much as possible for the next person. When I came onboard the position had been empty for a few years so I had a boatload of backlogged materials to work through and no clue where to start, what had already been done, etc. I just really hate the thought of leaving the next person in that position…

        1. Mockingjay*

          You’re not leaving that person in that position. Your soon-to-be-ex company is doing that. When a company has someone with a scarce key or unique skill, they should capture that knowledge base as part of good, ongoing business practices. You don’t wait until someone is leaving to write how-to documents or suddenly find a body to cross-train.

          I’d focus more on documenting statuses and where things are, than trying to complete tasks and projects. I think that will give you peace of mind for your successor and your former (almost) coworkers.

    2. Picard*

      Are you me??

      I’m out in two weeks (after 2 months notice) and I’m DONE. New person came onboard a couple of weeks ago so I’ve been training but there is SO much in my position that they farmed out the responsibilities to two people. I feel like I’ve focused most on the regulatory aspect of the position thats going to current staff member and not so much on the higher level stuff going to the new gal.

      I’m so so done. I’m trying to focus on getting ONE thing caught up/finished each day and thats about my bandwidth.

      1. persimmon*

        Oh god, yeah I feel that. I am so ready to just be done.

        Lucky you getting a new person already though! It’s gotta be nice to be able to train your replacement.

  25. Banana Pyjamas*

    HR screeners and hiring managers, are you screening out candidates with business management degrees when the position asks for a business admin degree or is it more of a situation where the admin degree is preferred but the management degree is okay.

    Context: The positions that make sense for my next step are mostly are middle management and upper middle management that deal with managing a team to meet KPIs, operations management and management analysis. Even though all the university sites I’ve read through indicate this would fall more in under business management, education requirements tend to be set by county/township board and/or supervisors who don’t necessarily understand the ins and outs of the work, so most positions ask for business admin degrees (finance, real estate OR RELATED).

    1. Hiring Mgr*

      This may vary by field and other things, but when I’m looking to hire to a manager I don’t care what their degree is in. I’m more interested in their relevant work experience. So at least for me it would make no difference

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Approximately half of job listings in my field consider experience in lieu of education, but that reduces my total experience to less than the total ten year minimum I have seen in most job postings. About a quarter of all roles consider two years of experience to one year of education, which puts me back at entry level. Accordingly, I’m going back to school. Business admin is the second most requested degree, however the program was so misrepresented and is so disorganized that I’m already hoping to transfer for spring…and classes start next week. The trick is the community college I’m transferring to has a bridge program for business management rather than business admin.

    2. Hiya*

      No. I actually care very little about the type of degree they have. I care, almost exclusively, about their responsibilities in recent roles

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        If a candidate previously did higher level work, but took time off work to back to school, does that change the calculus?

      2. Stuff*

        You may not care, but is the automated system going to filter out anyone with business management, because it’s looking for business admin?

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          Yeah that’s something to consider. Usually jobs in my field list a couple of degrees then say “or related”, so I hope they wouldn’t set their filters their way.

    3. Random Academic Cog*

      As far as I’m aware, business administration and business management don’t have any relevant distinctions in the context of prerequisite for a job. We would treat them the same for the purposes of evaluating an application.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Almost everything I read seemed like splitting hairs honestly. Glad to see I’m not the only one who sees it that way.

  26. Sneezy*

    I’m looking for passive, neutral scripts* for when my manager says things like, “you got dressed nice and pretty for me today!” or “you put lipstick on for me today!”

    If she’d phrase it like, “You look nice today!” I’d say thanks and move on. But the way she words her compliments (as if I’m dressing for HER) flummoxes me.

    *Yes I know it’s weird and inappropriate. It’s not safe for me to push back, even mildly (she’s extremely reactive and we’re in the middle of rolling layoffs and I need money to pay rent or I’ll be homeless). No I will not be going to HR.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Agreed.

        In your head, “yes” = “I acknowledge that you said something to me that I guess you think is a compliment but is actually creepy, but I’m not going to waste my time and energy addressing that with you, you crazy so-and-so.”

    3. Somehow I Manage*

      While not pushing back directly, I think “I did it for me” would be a way to show her that she has nothing to do with your choice.

      2. Pocket Mouse*

        Agree- something like “I love this color on me” or “This is my favorite dress!” if it feels too confrontational to explicitly say she had nothing to do with your choices.

        Say it in an upbeat way that keeps the conversation pleasant, but don’t preface with a “yes”-type verbal linker. And immediately change the subject.

    4. Productivity Pigeon*

      Ouch, that would make me uncomfortable too.

      It’s a pretty weird thing to say.

      Since you can’t push back, I’d just say thanks and move on.

      I guess you could say something like “thank you! I dress like this/try to make myself look nice/enjoy looking nice for myself and not other people, but it’s always nice/fun when others appreciate your efforts!”

      But if she’s very sensitive, I might not think it was worth the risk. You’d need to be so delicate that it probably wouldn’t be worth the effort in the end.

        1. Productivity Pigeon*

          If it was a man, I’d feel like it was sexual harassment.

          (Which shows my bias. So to be fair, I have to say that it seems like sexual harassment.)

          2. FashionablyEvil*

            I don’t think the fact that it’s from a woman makes it any better/not harassment. It’s gross.

    5. CherryBlossom*

      Oof, I’ve been in that boat, of not feeling safe to build or enforce *any* boundaries because the need for money/security supersedes all else. You have nothing but my utmost sympathies.

      As for neutral scripts, whenever I had to deal with people and comments like that, I usually just pulled out my fake “office laugh” and went about my business. Sounds nice, without having to actually express gratitude for a creepy sentiment.

    6. chocolate muffins*

      For me personally, saying “thanks” to something inappropriate that made me feel uncomfortable would feel like … thanking someone for doing something inappropriate that made me feel uncomfortable … which I would not want to do (though if you do, great!). I might go with something like “okay” to show that I had heard but without giving further endorsement/agreement to the comment.

    7. Hyaline*

      If it’s not safe to push back at all, scripts won’t help you. If you can say *something* and you’d feel better saying something, respond with a thanks plus “I feel better about my day with a little lipstick on!” or “This dress makes me feel happy!” or something else that acknowledges what she said and emphasizes that you dress FOR YOU without actually saying those words. But if it’s really not safe, it’s not safe, and this isn’t worth torching your day with a hyper-reactive weirdo over it.

      Also, yes this is weird. And icky. And I’m sorry.

    8. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah, I would translate it into why I have actually chosen to wear it: “Oh this is my contrary weather dress”, “The SPF is great on these new lipsticks”, “It’s so comfy, actually!” “I love anything magenta, I want to be buried in it”

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Whilst thinking “or attend your funeral in it.”

        Which you would NEVER EVER say aloud of course.

    9. GoosieLou*

      I could imagine a playful deflection (“aw, Barb, I put on lipstick for everyone, we all need more fuschia in our Wednesdays!”) a redirect to the truth (“Yep, I dressed up for the company!”) or a slightly pointier redirect if you can say it breezily enough (“Oh, Barb, it would be a big HR concern if I were getting dressed up just for you, but I’m glad you like it!”)

    10. Admin of Sys*

      You could just constantly redirect away from the possessiveness of it?
      “Thanks, my friends and I are checking out a restaurant tonight”
      “Thanks, I have a meeting with a client at 3”
      Just constant ‘thanks, ‘.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I would not do this. Any mention of a social thing, and she’ll try to invite herself. Our current manager is that type of person.

    11. Cardboard Marmalade*

      Does it feel too friendly to respond in a kinda diagonal way, as though you were both just saying meaningless pleasantries? Like she said something about your makeup and you just vaguely say, “Nice to see you too!”

    12. Unkempt Flatware*

      Good God! That’s a really upsetting thing to hear from a boss. I hate to say that if it were me, I’d stop dressing up and wearing makeup. How freaking sad is that? I once had a boss come around the corner into my cubical to find me leaning over my desk trying to untangle cords and he said, “Oh! Unkempt! Don’t bend over like that in front of me!” in a gross objective way. I didn’t have the control to stop myself from spitting out, “OR WHAT?!” and he literally ran out of my office. Luckily I was in a government setting and would have had to beat him with a closed fist to get in any trouble there.

    13. Observer*

      I agree with the person who said that scripts are not going to really make a difference.

      The thing that is most likely to help you is to start seriously looking for a job. You probably won’t find one right away, but knowing that you are doing SOMETHING to get away from this is a lot more empowering than trying to find the magic words to keep a jerk from being a jerk.

      I’m curious, though. Why not go to HR? Is it because HR is a dumpster fire? Or something else.

  27. Anon for This*

    When I came on board four years ago, I inherited a problem employee, Bob. Bob is a subject matter expert in his niche field, but Bob has…. issues. He is extremely controlling, he can be vindictive, he is rude and combative when given any feedback that isn’t 100% positive, and won’t take responsibility for his mistakes. He also has very little self-awareness and constantly makes assumptions that are not based in reality, and then operates as if they are true.

    I noticed this right away, but when I tried to address issues in real time, Bob became hostile to me and complained to my boss. Instead of shutting him down and reinforcing my role as his manager, my boss told Bob he was right, and then told me to appease Bob in any way possible since we “needed” his expertise and because at some point before I managed him, Bob had told my boss he planned to retire within two years.

    Well fast forward four years and… Bob has not retired. Bob has never even MENTIONED the thought of retiring the entire time I have been his manager. In the meantime, his behavior has gotten worse and worse, and I am at the end of my rope.

    One of the things I have been tasked with doing is expanding our department into a new line of business. This doesn’t affect Bob’s work, he still manages his program, but our culture is one where you’re expected to help out with small things outside of your regular job as needed (i.e. “other duties as assigned”).

    Earlier this week, I asked Bob to do one minor task to help with the new line of business. We work a hybrid schedule, and it was a WFH day. I asked via email and Bob did not respond. I followed up with a second email the next day, and asked for him to confirm by the end of the day that the task had been done, and he did not respond or acknowledge the request a second time. When we got to the office the next day, I asked him in person to confirm the task had been done, and he exploded at me, essentially refusing to do the task unless I put it in writing that it was required. I did this, and also outlined the expectations about communication and professionalism, and BCC’ed my boss on the email. 

    After seeing the email and hearing about this my boss finally agreed that his behavior is a problem and I should address it. But it’s been four years! Is there a way to effectively address issues that have gone on this long without a change in management? (I have actually been job hunting because of the Bob situation, but not getting much movement on my applications.)

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      Have a meeting with your manager. Ask them how they see “addressing it” actually going. You could remind them that this situation is the tip of the iceberg related to Bob, and while you are absolutely able to address this particular situation, this is a symptom of a much larger problem. See what they say. Given the lack of attention Bob’s problematic behavior has gotten from management, you really need buy-in because this seems like a first step on a path to termination.

      1. Anon for This*

        Thank you! I will definitely do this. And yes the only way I can see it going is ending with “quit or be fired”…

      2. M2*

        I agree with all of this but I also think if he refuses to answer emails or acknowledge when he is WFH then take away that perk or make it clear if he doesn’t be reply to messages asking for a response by X time then he will have to work from the office.

        Loop in your manager, HR, and put him on a PIP. Honestly it sounds like he should be let go, but if he’s older HR can get scared if age discrimination lawsuit so write all examples of major issues with him and ask HR and your manager to put him in a PIP.

        Get everything in writing and if it’s meeting have someone else there with you and write up meeting notes right away.

        What organizations don’t realize as you loose the best people when you let low performers and those with anger issues stay, promote them, or don’t do anything to let them go.

    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      It sounds like they largely want you to appease Bob and keep him happy so that they can continue to benefit from his expertise. If that’s the case, then you’re the expendable person in this scenario.

      Talking to your boss makes sense, but I’d see how far your boss is willing to go. Could be, your boss isn’t willing to punish Bob for misbehaving. If so, you have minimal leverage.

      1. Anon for This*

        Boss has already acknowledged Bob’s behavior as a problem that needs to be addressed. I’m just not sure how productive trying to address it will be at this point.

        1. Kathenus*

          While it’s a good step that your boss has acknowledged the problem needs to be addressed, you might want to have an honest conversation with your boss about whether or not they also support terminating him if Bob is unwilling to change. Because I could, unfortunately, envision a scenario where your boss wants you to change it but won’t support a tough decision down the road, and then you could be in an even worse case because Bob would then learn that there are no real consequences. Hopefully your boss will back this all the way if needed, but if it was me I’d have that frank discussion with the boss first to make sure. Then follow up summarizing the conversation in an email to your boss so you have that for your files. Good luck.

        2. M2*

          Why is he still allowed to WFH if he doesn’t reply to messages? At my organization if you aren’t at a certain standing you are not allowed to WFH. It’s clear in the policy and your manager can revoke it (but also loop in HR so as not to be retaliatory and give people a little notice).

          I wanted to put someone on a PIP who basically didn’t work maybe did 20-25% if their job only. I talked with them, wrote them up, but when it came time for a PIP my manager and HR said no because they were worried about a lawsuit(?!) this person was not over a certain age. They ended up switching departments but that department head didn’t reach out to me for a reference, and this person was so bad that then the head left! It’s really infuriating and a real morale killer for all of us that actually do work. I’m actively looking in part because of this!

    3. Kay*

      Echoing the other comments to say that not only do you need to have a discussion with your manager – you need to have them on board with the plan for how to handle this.

      You are right that this will likely be a “quit or be fired” situation, as I don’t know Bob will actually change – but you need to be absolutely sure that everyone needed to be on board for a firing is in fact on board, how you would handle replacing him if he does quit in a fit of rage, etc.

      Ask yourself – can you get by without his knowledge, how quickly could you hire a replacement, do you need to take steps prior to talking to him in order to protect certain company data/get somebody trained, is grandboss going to shut you down? As for how to talk to him when you get all of the above ironed out – I would probably go with something like “I know this hasn’t been addressed in the past but this is a change that is being implemented effective immediately. We need to see X behavior from you going forward, is this something you can commit to?” and see what he says.

      1. Anon for This*

        Thank you! I will absolutely do this. I too highly doubt that Bob will change. One thing I left out is that my own boss started and finished an MBA program since they initially told me to keep Bob happy. It’s definitely changed their perspective and I think one of the reasons I am being allowed to manage him now. And boss is the CEO so I don’t have to worry about someone above them :)

    4. Random Academic Cog*

      Have had similar situations (myself and as an observer). I get that it feels like it’s not worth pursuing when someone is a year or two from retirement and you’d rather end on a positive note in recognition of when they actually did a good job, even if it was a while back. But when you are tolerating them rather than appreciating them and they don’t leave, it’s an entirely different ballgame.

      The first thing I did after my Bob didn’t retire when they said they would was to review the existing job description. As processes changed, the actual work required also changed, but we’d given up on trying to make Bob learn new ways of doing things. At the end Bob had about half of a job, but still with full time pay. I looped in Bob’s dotted-line supervisor and we went through all the tasks that would legitimately fall under the existing job description and developed a plan to require that Bob learn all of the new processes if the new retirement date was pushed off again. We were pretty certain Bob wouldn’t be able to get to a proficient level, at which point we would have started the PIP route. But if Bob had stayed and reached proficiency, that would also be fine because the burden on everyone else would still be less. Fortunately, Bob didn’t push it off again, though I’ll admit that the dotted-line supervisor was getting more visibly irritated by the end and likely had something to do with that decision.

      When I’ve been a bystander, it’s also gone similarly. Basically holding people who have been coasting with minimal pressure for years to a similar standard as less-tenured employees. We’ve lost people with specialized knowledge (that they wouldn’t share in a misguided attempt to be indispensable), but we’ve figured out how to move forward in every case.

      Good luck to you!

  28. Elevator Elevator*

    I quit my job because all of my coworkers quit and, after giving my employers more than enough time to right the ship, it became clear that they never would. The workload was unsustainable and I left. As a reason, it’s somehow both open and shut (everyone quit! I wasn’t the problem) and a can of worms because there’s clearly a story there (everyone quit! What is going ON there?).

    I’ve been workshopping my answer to the “why did you leave?” question. I’m inclined to vague it up a little bit for hiring managers so it doesn’t invite follow-up questions in the same way, but I’m not too worried about getting “wait, what’s so awful about Company?” questions from someone who probably at least partially wants to know in case they’re ever asked to fill one of Company’s frequent vacancies.

    Am I right in thinking I can be more candid with an external recruiter than I would be with a hiring manager? (For context, these are recruiters who contacted me about positions I’m not necessarily sold on. I’d be more cautious with a recruiter who was filling a position I really wanted.)

    1. postdooc*

      Is there a reason why you need to get into it at all? While it is a very valid reason to leave a job, bringing negativity into the job interview (however warranted) has more risks than reward. Can you just say ‘I was looking for more opportunities to work on X or Y’ or ‘Due to some changes at [Company], my actual work was changing substantially from job description, so I’m very excited to look at jobs doing X’

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I think if you say something along the lines of “a few of my coworkers left and [company] had no plans to refill those positions, and my workload was unsustainable when I had to do my original job plus the other jobs,” that threads the needle of “open and shut” and avoids “can of worms.” It’s true, but doesn’t have the “what is going on there??” hook that “all of my coworkers quit” does.

    3. ecnaseener*

      I get the temptation to be feel safer being candid with external recruiters, but I wouldn’t do it – they very well might relay what you said to the hiring manager, and the game of telephone might even make you sound more petty/dramatic/etc than you really did. You’ll need a canned answer for hiring managers anyway, use that with recruiters.

  29. Extra anon today*

    My company has announced a policy I’m calling “RTO Lite”. Starting next week, cameras are to be on in all meetings, all the time. Management has decided that there isn’t enough engagement and interactivity in meetings and this will totally fix it.

    Part of the announcement goes:

    “In the US, on Monday, we celebrate Labor Day, which was established to recognize the hard work and dedication of individuals who have played a crucial role in shaping our economy and improving working conditions. What better way to show our appreciation for our fellow colleagues than to turn on our cameras and smile, frown, or just shrug your shoulders.”

    …I can think of a few ways. Like, if you want more engagement in meetings, encourage people to learn how to run better meetings.

    Can anyone who’s lived through a policy like this give me some tips on how to cope with it?

    1. Elsewise*

      Suuuuper tone deaf to attach that announcement to labor day!

      You mention coping and not pushing back, so I will say one thing that’s been helpful to me is to really practice my “neutrally pleasant” expression. With my camera on it’s just like practicing in a mirror, except you can’t make faces at yourself. I also find it helpful to knit or do something else to keep my hands busy so my face can be more neutral.

      Don’t put too much pressure on yourself to always be looking into the camera, no one else is. If you have multiple monitors and sometimes will be visibly looking away from the computer, you can call it out the first time you meet with someone. “Just so you know, my notes for this meeting are in my other monitor, so if I seem to be looking away, I’m still paying attention.”

      If it gets too overwhelming and you absolutely can’t be on camera a certain day, you can always claim internet issues. Don’t do it every time, and probably not for the first week or so of the new policy, but doing that occasionally will probably go unnoticed.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      Ugh. We have a “cameras-on” policy that is really annoying in large meetings. (I’m fine with it in groups of about 5 or less.)

      I always blur my background (it works better than those background pics). And our standard is that you shouldn’t have to be on camera if you’re eating lunch, etc.

      But we always have glitches with large meetings, because it’s just not practical on any level for 50-odd people to have their camera on at the same time. (I’d rather just the speaker did, which is how some areas hold their bigger meetings, and totally makes sense.)

    3. Hiring Mgr*

      Cope with what exactly? It sounds like you can still WFH, just with the camera on. It doesn’t sound so bad to me but I do most of my calls w/camera on already

      1. NaoNao*

        To me, it’s the implications looming behind the “cameras on at all times during meetings” edict. It implies a couple things: faces appearing to be engaged is more important than actual engagement (talking, chatting in the IM thread, taking notes, following up, etc), which is always a let down as it then in turn implies that “butts in seats” and face time is more important than work product, and that the company has spent time and energy thinking about ways to control and monitor WFH because on some level, they don’t trust their employees are truly engaged and participating in meetings. And instead of doing a root cause analysis as to why that is, they’ve slapped a bandaid on this issue, one that feels punitive and controlling.

      2. Extra anon today*

        I don’t mind being on camera if it’s a meeting where I have something to contribute and can actively participate, but unfortunately that doesn’t cover most of my meetings. Most of the time the camera is just going to be sapping the attention and energy that I could be putting into actual work.

    4. The Unionizer Bunny*

      “In the US, on Monday, we celebrate Labor Day, which was established to recognize the hard work and dedication of individuals who have played a crucial role in shaping our economy and improving working conditions. What better way to show our appreciation for our fellow colleagues than to turn on our cameras and smile, frown, or just shrug your shoulders.”

      I love how they carefully omit from this description all mention of the unions who created Labor Day – a president officially declared it a national holiday over a decade later (and only when he needed to preserve support from working-class voters), this wasn’t invented by one person at the top.

      What better way? How about asking all of your colleagues how they would prefer to be shown appreciation? Since you’re all working remotely this isn’t a “put up flyers in the break room asking for feedback” situation, but if you’re all working remotely there may be even easier ways of communicating.

      “In the US, we celebrate Labor Day, which was organized by Labor Unions to argue that the people who do the work should have more say in how it gets done. What better way to honor the rights they earned for us all than to exercise those very rights by checking in with each other about how each of us, as individuals, prefer to be shown appreciation?”

      Even if your workplace isn’t unionized, you still have the right to engage in concerted action to improve your working conditions. And, more importantly, you have the right to listen to each other instead of management on what those improvements ARE. Don’t let managers tell you “oh, everyone else wants this – not the people you’ve spoken with, but lots of other people”. That’s an appeal to popularity (aka a logical fallacy) and you have the right to compare notes with your coworkers directly. (And if they aren’t working with you, you’ll never be in a meeting together so there’s no justification for insisting that their preference dictate your camera.) Ask people in the meetings to create that very “interactivity and engagement” management wants. If nobody wants to see other people’s faces, propose that everyone keeps their cameras turned off as a sign of respect for coworkers’ actual wants.

      Practically speaking, expressions can be ambiguous. Wear a two-layer white mask. The top layer has very well-drawn, distinct emotional “faces” on it. Switch between them as appropriate. The layer closer to your face is for when you don’t have any particular emotional response to convey.

      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        I work in a heavily unionized field, and this portrayal of “now now the word from the top has come down because we’re celebrating labor day” would SO not fly here. I pity the writer who puts something like that on paper around here…

    5. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Can you be more specific about what you think will be hard that you’ll need to cope with?
      Because if camera off means you’re doing other work during the meeting and now you can’t do that, or you’re running down the hall to switch laundry during a meeting and now you can’t do that, then the cameras on to increase engagement might actually work to get people to focus on the meeting.
      So maybe you cope by being more engaged with the meeting?

      1. Extra anon today*

        I’d be happy to cope that way if we had the sort of meetings where there was anything to engage with.

      2. ScruffyInternHerder*

        Being on camera means I have to police my facial expressions, which depending on the meeting, can be a lot.

        1. JustaTech*

          Yes, this. Or I get distracted by my own face on the screen and miss something someone else is saying.
          Some people (not everyone) find being on-camera when they’re not speaking to be as exhausting as maintaining direct eye contact for extended periods.

          Also having to police my facial expressions when email notifications pop up when I’m in a meeting is annoying (and to answer the question: don’t you have to do that in in-person meetings? No, because I almost never have my laptop open in an in-person meeting because it is too distracting for me.)

      3. Arrietty*

        Forcing me to have my camera on because management want to see engaged faces is a great way to make sure that I’m actually less engaged, because I will find myself focusing on what my face is doing and not listening.

    7. DrSalty*

      Can you specify what exactly about this you need to “cope” with?

      I take almost all my calls with cameras on. It’s not that bad, in fact is better for smaller calls to see the person’s face while you’re having a conversation. I use a virtual background always and that’s key imo. That way no one can tell if you’re moving around locations or your room is dirty or whatever.

      If you’re looking for a way to still multitask in boring calls where you don’t really have to contribute but still appear on camera, then the secret is put the window on the same monitor as your camera so it looks like you’re looking at the camera while you check email or whatever.

      If you’re in a big call and not talking, odds are no one is going to be paying attention to you at all, so don’t stress about it.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        “It’s not that bad” – this varies WIDELY from person to person. Some people love it, some people hate it. Lucky you that you don’t mind, but many other people would indeed not be happy with the mandate and feel the need to find coping mechanisms, and that’s even leaving aside the bad messaging.

        1. DrSalty*

          Again, what exactly do you need to cope with? Looking at yourself? Some programs let you minimize yours own video. Drag a window over your video. Or is it something else? Then maybe other solutions are appropriate. More detail would be helpful.

          I was sharing how I cope, which is use a virtual background.

          1. allathian*

            Doing something mindless, like knitting or doodling on a piece of paper helps lots of people focus on the meeting.

            We have cameras on at most meetings and I’m fine with that because there’s no expectation of looking at the camera constantly.

          2. Pocket Mouse*

            I’m not Extra Anon Today, but for me, I think it has to do with people potentially looking at me/examining my face and expression at any and all times. For in-person meetings, people only really look at me when I’m speaking or expected to speak; there are other people speaking or notes to write or something that has our shared attention to break it up. With camera on, it feels like I have to be “on” at all times, and I just don’t have the energy for that, especially because I’d gotten less careful with my mouth after years of wearing masks, and especially with multiple on-camera meetings in a day.

            TBH here are tons of articles from the last few years about why being on camera is more draining than in-person or off camera. I see that you’re asking Extra Anon Today for their experience so you can give more tailored advice and that’s great, but when you said “it’s not that bad” it sounded like you meant it as a blanket statement that applies to anyone, which I pushed back on because what works for you isn’t what most people who find this stressful are talking about.

    8. Almost A Shrimp*

      My employer tried to do this, but we’re a very anti-camera bunch, so we…just didn’t do it. It never came up again.

    9. Bitte Meddler*

      My last company had a “cameras on” policy. I dealt with it by arranging my screens so that I could place a Word doc such that it covered my face (so I didn’t have to see myself) and then type notes of what was being said in the Word doc.

      90% of the time I never needed those notes and just deleted the file after the meeting. But concentrating on keeping my typos to a minimum made me look like I was concentrating on the meeting.

  30. Excel Gardener*

    I’ve been at my current job for just a year, and I was originally planning on being in this role for 2-3 years, but I’ve been feeling increasingly dissatisfied with aspects of it. The pay is ok but not great (I suspect I could make 10%-20% more elsewhere, though I’m not completely sure about that), and despite getting “exceeds expectations” on my performance review I only got a COLA, not a real raise. More importantly, I’ve come to realize that the broader department I’m in is underfunded and behind the times in terms of technology and best practices. Thus, I worry that I’m not getting experience in the skills I will need to take the next step in my career.

    But on the other hand, I like my boss, I rarely have to work overtime, there’s no toxicity or drama, it’s 90% WFH, the health insurance is very good, and I’m good at what I do. And I don’t want to be seen as a job hopper (though I was at my last job for 3 years, so maybe I shouldn’t worry?). I feel like the conventional wisdom is you should plan on staying at least two years unless a job is truly awful.

    Should I stick this job out for another year or two? Or should I start searching for a new role now?

    1. Never Knew I was a Dancer*

      Can’t hurt to start searching now. It’s possible that it would take a year to get an offer for a role that had the perks of the one you have now, plus the ones that it doesn’t.

    2. M2*

      Only apply for roles you will take and if you get another job I think you’ll need to stay a minimum if 3 years or longer.

      As a manager if I saw 3 years then 1 year (unless it’s clearly a temporary role or consultancy) I would hope/ expect the next job to be a minimum of 3 years. This doesn’t include if you’re promoted which is always good. Everyine has had to leave roles early but it’s the pattern (if it happens frequently/ in a row) that is concerning to a hiring manager.

      I’m clearly not always the norm. I had a role up and so many applicants had multiple ones for 2 years or less. I couldn’t believe people had been hired after clearly job hopping! I didn’t interview any of the candidates who had 3-4+ 2 years and less on a resume. I know some were actually phone screened but HR screened them out.

      I don’t mind seeing 1 or 2 on a resume or 3 if they are far apart and understand the Covid era so take that into account too. So only apply for roles you really want and be selective because you have a decent thing now and for all you know hiring might take awhile. That’s my advise but honestly do what is best for YOU. Maybe decide what you want in a role and go from there.

  31. bamcheeks*

    Question that came up at work recently: four years ago, during the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, we saw lots of companies and organisations having an “oh we must get better at this” moment. Has anyone got any examples of really and meaningful change?

    2. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      Some departments in my university made small but meaningful changes, such as:
      Some did away with costly standardized entry exams not directly relevant to the program that unfairly advantaged wealthier applicants or ones who did well on standard tests. Some departments did more targeted recruitment from and mentoring for members of historically underrepresented groups. Some did various kinds of informative or allyship-building activities.

      But we’re a public university in one of those states whose state-level politics were not great in 2020 and have regressed markedly since, so ongoing efforts have lost some momentum as the state threatens administrative sanctions. People look at what FL did with New College and get very risk-averse.

    3. Stuart Foote*

      I think that the whole 2020 BLM movement really shot itself in the foot by having absolutely zero quality control when it came to the specific ideas and messages it proposed, so good ideas that probably 60-75% of people in general would have supported got overwhelmed by really odd and counterproductive ideas that maybe 15% of the country supported. For example, people really got into Robin DiAngelo, seemingly because she suggested racism could best be fought by doing lots and lots of workshops, even though I wouldn’t say her ideas have stood up very well. (Recently, she got busted for plagiarizing Black scholars in her academic work). Similarly, a lot of the organizations that got a lot of donations turned out to be very poor stewards of that money.

      1. bamcheeks*

        I don’t think I’d agree that it wad BLM‘s responsibility to come up with solutions. The protests identified the problems: the people protesting did not have the power to fix the problems. That’s on the power structures.

        1. Stuart Foote*

          I mean if people are going to advocate for change it would help to suggest solutions and advocate for them. It would also be helpful to push back against bad solutions like the crap Robin DiAngelo was selling or the organizations that basically stole the donations they got.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, I don’t see how this is Black Lives Matter’s fault that a lot of orgs got into Robin DiAngelo…

      3. Justin*

        I would say that’s not the movement’s fault but a few individuals within it. The movement was genuine, and people grifted off of it.

    4. Justin*

      The reality is this: the companies that really cared, cared before that, and still care. My company has diverse leadership, and doesn’t require certain exclusionary credentials (eg years of experience can substitute for degrees), and it works.

      Other companies never really cared so they gave up.

    5. EVOOlution*

      The organization I work for is (still) in the process of changing application requirements for the many competitive grants it offers, to rate grant applications on the equity of their work, on how they represent/engage/serve diverse communities, and the inclusiveness of their programs. This started from an official workplace anti-racism workgroup in 2020 where many of us asked, essentially, “we fund communities; where is the money going and is it fair?”
      It’s taking some tweaks to incorporate DE&I in grant scoring rubrics in ways that encourage meaningful, structural components of programs (not token hiring, or charity on the side, or lip service). This remains a work in progress! But serious money is at stake, and it matters!

    6. fhqwhgads*

      There are 4x as many POC employees where I work than there were in 2020. So, that’s something.

  32. postdooc*

    How do you deal with phone distractions during the workday? I am (admittedly) a bit addicted to my phone, but I really want to avoid using it during the day. However, I can’t just fully turn it on mute or leave it in my bag, since I need to use it for two-factor authentification. In addition, my boss is very scatterbrained, and tends to text or call at random times during the day, which I have to respond.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So which apps/features are the ones that really suck up your time?
      Social media?
      Texting w/ friends, relatives, etc?
      Games?

      There are site/app blockers you can install, then configure for you needs. Eg, prevent you from using Twitter from 9-5.

      1. postdooc*

        There’s a lot that suck up time, ranging from videos to games to social media… I’ve even found myself scrolling Zillow as a procrastination tool. I’ve tried going cold turkey (deleting any irrelevant app), but I find myself circumventing when possible, or even changing the settings. For example, I deleted twitter from my phone, but I opened via the web browser. Or I successfully stopped watching instagram reels, but would then open youtube on the browser.

    2. Productivity Pigeon*

      iPhones have a function where you can set special Home Screens with only certain apps for different focus modes.

      Could you do something like that and only have the absolute essential apps there?

      Or use one of the apps that block certain apps during certain times? Like Freedom for example.

      1. postdooc*

        I definitely did not know about this. Just set a focus mode with a location setting for my office and a focus mode with location setting for my apartment. Is there a way in there to specifically block opening certain apps while in a focus mode, or just notifications?

        1. Productivity Pigeon*

          I think you need to use a third party app for that.

          I did some quick googling and found an app called Opal that seems to be able to do exactly that.

          I googled “How to block apps with iPhone Focus Mode”.

          I’ve never used that app though so I don’t know anything about its quality.

    3. HonorBox*

      Hide any of the apps that are distractions. I had to do this when I was getting distracted at home by games. Put them in a folder and (if iPhone) put it on the next screen over so you have to swipe to get there. Having them less accessible can be beneficial, and having to swipe to get to them gives your brain a chance to think “do I need to be doing this right now?”

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      are there either settings (screen time, I think is the Apple version) or third-party apps that you can use to block certain apps, so that you can only access your 2FA and texts/phone calls?

    5. Hlao-roo*

      Can you set “do not disturb” on your phone, with your boss’s number allowed to ring through? That way you won’t be distracted by pings and calls from friends/family/random apps.

      You’ll have to turn off “do not disturb” every time you need to do 2FA, which could be anywhere from a little annoying to a lot annoying depending on how many times you need 2FA in the course of a normal workday. And you’ll see all the missed messages/calls from everyone else during the brief window, but it might be easier to ignore during a few discrete windows of the day rather than trying to white-knuckle your way through ignoring calls and texts for 8 hours.

    6. Reba*

      My Samsung phone has modes settings that allow you to very granularly allow/disallow selected apps. So I can switch off the browser & socials while leaving on email, messages and authentication etc. You can set it for scheduled times.

    7. Alex*

      Not sure if this would work for you, but I have an apple watch that has proven quite useful in this regard. I have a job where I’m both not *allowed* to be on my phone, but also my boss texts me with important information sometimes. I have another job where I have to use 2-factor authentication.

      I kind of have the opposite problem where I am scatterbrained about my phone and often forget where I set it down (“where did I put my phone?” is probably going to be engraved on my tombstone). With the watch, as long as my phone is somewhat nearby, I can read texts, decline or answer calls, and use two-factor authentication without taking my phone out at all…..or knowing exactly which pocket in my backpack I put it in lol. It also helps me locate my phone….

      1. postdooc*

        Honestly, that’s not a bad idea. Just one tool that can ONLY do the 2FA & calls, with no other options, and can keep my phone in my bag.

      2. Mad Scientist*

        I was going to suggest the same thing (and I have the same problem about never knowing where my phone is lol)

        My smart watch has made MFA so much easier, and I mute notifications for most apps, but I can still see if I get an important text or call that needs a response.

        1. Ellen*

          Same for me though I have a work phone that I believe is monitored (no idea if that’s true but I believe it and I’ve never bothered to disprove it – Fortune 200 company our tech is pretty locked down) and a personal phone. Personal phone is on silent and in a different room.

    8. Rara Avis*

      My phone stays in my bag in the closet. My fitbit buzzes if I get a call or text, and I can see if I need to respond. (I don’t get called or texted for work, so it would only be an emergency call from a family member that I would need to pick up.) If I need to use it for 2FA, I pull it out and then put it back again.

  33. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    I would like to hear people’s stories of Procedures Defeating The Purpose. My example: I worked as a data analyst (really a glorified data entry clerk) at a firm that provided financial reporting to various clients (banks and loan agencies and suchlike.) These reports would go by file feed directly from our server to the client in the middle of the night. So an actual management person (salaried) would be tapped to be on-call on a rotating basis to make sure the server stayed up. There was a pager they passed around, and the pager would go off if something went wrong, and the on-call person would have to go to our office after hours to reset things.
    So they hire a new management person and set her up with the pager and the expectations and everything. BUT for your first 90 days, you’re in your probationary period. So they *don’t* give her a key to the building, or the security code to get in, or anything that would actually enable her to, y’know, DO that part of the job. You only get full access to that stuff after you pass the 90 days. But they still give her the pager and the on-call shifts!
    And sure enough, the pager goes off in the middle of the night, and she dutifully goes down to the building, and she can’t get in. And she can’t get security to let her in because she doesn’t know the passcode. And so she has to call Real Manager to come down and rescue her and introduce her to the security people and reset the technology. And meanwhile the stupid pager is still going off.
    I was a mere data entry clerk, but even I could see that if part of a person’s job was to get into the building after hours, they’d need the ability to do that, and if you didn’t trust them for it, then…excuse them from that portion of the role until you do?
    I don’t recall if they decided to just give her access, or if they decided to not have her do on-call until after the 90 days—that place was weird and it could have gone either way.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I still remember a phone menu for the Help Desk at oldjob that told people they could go to their Controller of Data for password resets and could look up who their COD was in the intranet. Which, of course, you couldn’t access if your password wasn’t working. (That information seems like they should have created a pathway in the phone menu for CODs. And people were really bad at keeping the intranet up to date, so no guarantees you got the right name if you had someone else look it up for you.)

    2. Angstrom*

      Levels of approval for purchases: At a previous job all purchase requisitions needed to be approved by someone one level up. So my boss might need his boss’s approval to buy something, but he could have me write the requisition and then approve it himself.

      1. OrdinaryJoe*

        Ha! That’s how we managed travel at my old company. The lower people would put most stuff on their company cards (with us manager’s approval and knowledge) and us managers would approve it – leaving the Director out of it and avoiding a 20 minute conversation on WHY the need to buy a bottle of water at the airport during a 4 hr layover. Don’t they have water fountains? Can’t you have saved the empty water bottle from the first plane and filled it up? How much do you really need to drink when you’re just sitting around?

    3. Hanani*

      I went to a religious college that had visiting hours for when men could be in the women’s dorms and women could be in the men’s dorms (as far as the college was concerned non-binary and queer people did not exist). RAs would do rounds and rotate on-call shifts for multiple dorms, to spread the burden.

      One male RA broke a rule and the punishment was to have their visiting hours privileges rescinded for some period of time, so they weren’t allowed to be in the female dorms. But they still had to do their rounds/be on call, so the solution was for a second RA to do everything with them. Why they didn’t just take this person off the rotation during their punishment and give them some additional shifts later is beyond me.

    4. pally*

      For a time, we rented out a number of our offices to the business next door (they were growing; we were not). They populated these rental offices with their engineers.

      My boss trusted us such that each employee had a key to the doors and an alarm code. We could come and go as we needed to. He provided the manager of the engineers with keys for each one. And a code for the alarm as well.

      With greater frequency, the engineers would work late. When they left for the day, I would be ‘hunted down’ to lock the door behind them (even though I was still working). Not a big deal; however, sometimes this interrupted my lab experiments at critical time points. Why not use the keys my boss issued to them and lock the door themselves?

      Turns out, for the security of their company, it is their policy that no one below the title of manager was to possess keys to the work site. Any work site. As a result, their manager had kept all the keys and the alarm code to himself. But he also never hung around for all of the engineers to leave to lock up behind them. He never even asked who was locking things up at the end of the day. Security, huh?

    5. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      Ooh I have another one. This one is in the category Stupid Call Center Tricks.

      So, as we all know, call centers are notoriously finicky about time usage—when you’re supposed to be on the phones, you have to be doing phone things; when you’re supposed to be on break, you have to be on break; etc. If for some reason you are off the phones during Phone Time, most call centers have a procedure for how to document what you were doing, so that (a) if it was authorized a legit use of the time, your stats don’t get dinged, and (b) even if it wasn’t, they can collate the data so they can figure out how to best allocate resources (Are most of our agents spending too much time doing Stupid Task X that we maybe could pull one whole person off the phones to do all at once/ do we need to hire more people/ or do we need to fire That One Guy, etc) (and yes, most call centers genuinely try to use this information for good, they aren’t really trying to screw their employees.)

      Anywho, there I was working in this call center that had recently been acquired by a different company that had different procedures and hierarchies and stuff, and there was major culture clash. The big company had a bunch of processes that were automated and made it easy for the agents to file schedule exceptions. The smaller company was accustomed to just giving everybody a few minutes of extra project time each day, set aside in their schedules, for them to do all that off-call stuff. There were political reasons why the automated system wasn’t allowed to be pushed out to the acquired company. Similarly, there were also political reasons why the project time was no longer allowed. So now, the agents in Small Company had to learn to fill out exception forms, which were then turned in to their supervisors, which were then sent on to WFM.

      Everyone hated this. The agents hated filling out the dumb form, the supervisors hated having to handle the stuff (and kept trying to approve it, which was no longer part of their role in New Company), the Workforce Ops people hated having to keep bugging the supervisors for missing data, it was a mess. The supervisors pissed and moaned. Finally a compromise was reached. We created a form using Excel that you’d keep on your desktop and fill in as you went through your day. At the end of the day, you’d email this straight to WFM.

      Well, apparently, for a nontrivial number of people, learning to fill in an Excel form was toooo haaaard (even though we filled in online forms all day long in the course of our duties, our punch clock was an online form, we used four different types of systems for data entry of various kinds, but Excel was A Bridge Too Far). So the solution for the supervisors of those particular agents was…[pause] [profound sigh] [thousand-yard stare] to print out the form, cut it into individual entry slips, have the agents fill out the slips, hand them back in, and *manually retype all the information for every agent on their team*. Because apparently this was easier than teaching them that the required thing is required and you have to learn to do the required thing (something they’d successfully transmitted in re: literally every other computer-based function we had.)

    6. Nightengale*

      My giant health system has “put the patient first” and “seeing people as individuals” as stated core values and yet defeats these at every turn.

      One that is impacting me the most is their removal of separate new and follow up patient slots. In theory this improves access. In practice, if the schedule is overfull with new patients, when are we supposed to see the follow-ups?

      I also had a dedicated telehealth from home day once a week. Lately, fewer patients were wanting video visits so my office manager and I agreed to change some of these to office days. She had to get permission from someone 2 levels up because changing the visit type was “limiting access” that had to be authorized.

  34. Pork Roll*

    I’m pretty unhappy at my current job (a niche area of higher ed admin). We have a new VP who seems pretty lukewarm about my work performance regardless of any data that I show them or whatever praise others tell him. Our org chart also changed when the VP started so I’m now reporting to someone lower in seniority who I’m not terribly fond of (disorganized and a micromanager). Note that I’m not worried about my current job, I’m union plus my manager thinks I’m indispensable.

    I’m currently in the running for a new job that would be a step up in pay and responsibility, plus I know from several sources that it has a really good work culture. In addition, my current employer is only in so-so financial shape (not in danger of going bankrupt but there are some big budget challenges) and the prospective employer is much more financially stable. The huge downside is the commute would be an hour each way without traffic (for context I live in New Jersey so there will likely be traffic). I would say 45 min each way is kind of my limit and it did not go well when I had a longer commute in the past.

    But again, I’m in a niche field so it’s not an employee’s job market and I’m pretty unhappy at my current job that won’t change. Any thoughts? Advice? Warnings? (and I recognize I’m putting the cart before the horse but I’m really torn on this so I want to start thinking about it now).

    1. Banana Pyjamas*

      Personally I wouldn’t. 45 minutes rural driving, absolutely . 45 minutes city driving, sustainable for a while. Over an hour in city traffic, no. From what I remember of New Jersey traffic, absolute no. To be fair, that WAS the Lincoln Tunnel, but still.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      An hour plus commute – each way – can be soul crushing. Not just the commute itself, but the impact on your life – getting up earlier, getting home later with little to no time to do things in the evening. I don’t know how bad your current situation is, but you might want to walk through a “sample week” – if you are able to telework, take a week and do the hour drive/bus/train whatever it is. work at a library or other facility, then schlep home. See what the impact is on your life. And weigh that impact against how you fell about your job. For me, a commute that long would be a “no.” But I know people with longer commutes that aren’t bothered by it. Everyone is different.

    3. allx*

      Commuting is a mindset. It is not impossible to do, as millions of people have commuted to work millions of times over the last 7 or 8 decades. And with all work from home, commuting traffic has become noticeably less, at least in my major city. Also, there are ways to minimize the pain of a commute: flexing travel time early or late, park-and-ride, music, podcasts, audio-books, and thinking time. But, you know your limit is 45 minutes and since you know that, the extra 15 minutes will definitely take its toll. In my last major commute (50 minute in/70 min home) I often joked that my home commute was two miles longer than my patience. Those last few miles were torture.

      However, your new VP, reporting-to-micromanager, and shaky organization budget would tip the scale for me to opt for the new job if give the chance despite the commute if I were mid-career and/or young-ish (60-ish or less). If you’re near the end of your career, sticking with the status quo would be understandable.

    4. newp*

      I understand your concern if you have to drive. Would it be workable to take PATH or NJTransit, at least occasionally? I have a 45-minute commute via subway in NYC and being able to read or knit or do something else makes it much nicer than being stuck driving.

    5. Having a Scrummy Week*

      As someone who had several jobs commuting from the suburbs to Greater Boston (not even to the city itself) for 1 hour each way on a GOOD day (not accounting for delays)…I don’t think I would do it again. 30-45 mins is my upper limit.

      The exception would be if you planned on moving closer to new job within the next 6-9 months. I could do the commute if it were a temporary thing with a defined end date.

    6. Hyaline*

      The sacrifice to work-life balance that two hours minimum in the car each day would require is a no-go for me. That’s personal, YMMV, but don’t underestimate the value of your time. Your choices, also, are not between “this job right now” and “this one single other job.” There are other options–you might not know about them yet, and they might not be on the table yet, but they’re there.

    7. Anonforthis*

      Could you move? Could you ask for off hours? A friend worked at Princeton and asked for a different schedule to beat the traffic and was allowed to work off hours certain days but they were at Director level and had to come in come days early for meetings.

    8. oat tea*

      I’m actually in a very similar situation to yours (higher ed staff role, NJ resident, looking for a new job and currently interviewing elsewhere).

      It could really depend on what roads you’re taking for the commute since New Jersey has so many busy highways. I had a couple interviews last month where the second was in person. In between interviews, I really started reconsidering taking the second interview, since the job was 60ish minutes away on paper taking both the Turnpike and the Parkway, though I decided to stick with it because I thought the opportunity had a lot of potential. Of course, then it ended up being almost 90 minutes with traffic and multiple slowdowns. So that felt like a non-starter before even walking into the interview (which I didn’t do well with anyway). Granted, it wasn’t during morning rush hour, so I’m not sure how normal or fluky that was.

    10. Meh*

      I would absolutely try the route a couple times before considering the role. An hour on a highway with minimal delays going against rush hour, sure. 45 min stop and go, traffic-filled or city driving, nope.

      Public transit is an option too – but unless your home and destination are on the same line, public transit is really based on people commuting to/from the city (NYC).

  35. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    How do you handle a peer or acquaintance who does not readily accept “yes” as an answer?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Uh, context? I normally hear this question the other way around, not accepting ‘no’. Are they extremely skeptical/paranoid and therefore they don’t trust your word?

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        What Policy Wonk* said. I find myself answering a question with a literal “yes,” after which the asker tries to talk me into saying “yes.”

        Right now, my only escape is to say “no” after saying “yes” a few times. Confusion seems to break the cycle, but also upsets others unnecessarily. I keep coming back to there must be a better solution.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      I work with a number of people who come in prepared for a “no”, so have marshalled their arguments, prepared to counter. When I say yes they don’t know what to do, so start going through their prepared points anyway. Is that the kind of thing you are talking about? If so, I just interrupt and remind them I already said yes.

  36. Kimmy Schmidt*

    Those in academia – what is your workflow to get around unproductive tenured colleagues and/or escalate issues up the chain?

    A coworker in my same department basically refuses to do… anything, as far as I can tell. Mostly we just sidestep and work around them, but we have a very public-facing project that impacts a lot of what students and other faculty can do and see on our website. Realistically, I know nothing is likely to change, but I also don’t want to go quietly about this. It’s affecting everyone else’s workflow and making our entire unit look bad because it’s so public. Do I email coworker (again) and CC our boss? Find a backend workaround to basically unpublish all their stuff? Compile all of their other issues and have a serious discussion with boss? Something else I’m not thinking of?

    1. bamcheeks*

      I have dealt with this at a couple of different levels. What I wouldn’t do is email again asking or reminding them to do the task, if it’s clear that’s not working.

      Depending on my level and whether you’re a peer to this person or more junior, I would either try and speak to them directly, whether that means sending a meeting request or phoning them or even tracking them down in their office / lab. What I’d try and find out is whether this is a flat, “no, I’m not doing it” thing or a, “oh gosh I’m so sorry, yes, I know I need to I’m just absolutely swamped” situation.

      Sometimes having a conversation has been all it’s taken to get the thing moved up someone’s priority list. If that doesn’t work, then I’d definitely go to my manager.

      CAVEAT: one time my manager required me to do this to an academic during a really busy time of the year, and then The Important Document got put in a folder and ignored for six months, at which point it was out of date. I am still mad, because that really damaged my credibility. If this really needs doing, make sure it VISIBLY has an impact.

  37. Subawoo*

    Last week, I found out that I didn’t get a job that I was hopeful for. The person they hired is someone I’ve worked with before and quite stellar. They absolutely made a good hire–it just wasn’t me!

    Nevertheless, it’s disappointing and I’m feeling quite defeated overall in my job search that has gone on for 6 months with lots of interviews but no offers. Up until the last few years, every time I interviewed for a job, I got an offer. That seems to no longer be the case. Maybe that’s because as I move up, competition gets more fierce.

    The hiring manager of the position I didn’t get offered to meet to discuss the selection process and my career path going forward. It’s a gracious offer that I intend to accept. My question to the commentariat is how to make the most of this opportunity. What questions should I ask?

    1. Mad Scientist*

      That’s an interesting offer, and I’m not sure how I would feel about it personally. Is this hiring manager essentially offering to mentor you? The fact that they want to talk about the selection process makes me wonder if there are other open positions they think you’d be a better fit for.

  38. Joe Momma*

    I’ll be starting an admin coordinator job at a liberal arts college the 2nd week of September in one of the science departments. My background is in customer service/admin but I’ve never worked in education. Does anyone have any tips for working in higher ed? TIA :)

    1. History Nerd*

      In my experience, the hierarchy is very important and something you should always keep in mind – and the staff are always on one of the lowest rungs. That means if you really need to get something done, but only staff want/need it, you need to recruit an ally at the permanent/tenured professor level or higher.

    2. AlabamaAnonymous*

      Higher ed is weird. I’ve worked in it for 20 years and love it, but it is weird. People tend to guard their little part of the campus carefully, so watch and listen a lot at the beginning to try to get the lay of the land.

      In some colleges, there are strict divides between administration (vps/res/etc), faculty, and staff, as in the faculty blame admin for all the problems while admin blames the faculty for all the problems. (And staff know that the admin and faculty are both problems!) It is also common for faculty to be a priority and for staff to be overlooked/have very little power which results in having very different expectations for the two groups. (Faculty often have very flexible work schedules, dress code, etc. while staff are excepted to in their office 8-5 in power suits.)

      As far as advice, look for other academic coordinators in other areas/departments and try to get to know them. They will be able to tell you who to talk to get things done and who to try to avoid. Also, be ready for processes that maybe paper-based and not super efficient :-). But also be prepared to meet and work with some truly wonderful and interesting people!

      If I think of anything else, I’ll come back and add more.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Congrats! Take some time to learn the campus and any student support services because students always have directional questions. Take a look into any nonstandard benefits; a lot of universities partner with places that provide discounted tickets, car rentals, hotels, or discounts at local businesses.

    4. bamcheeks*

      Academic staff are very, very busy and mostly their workloads are on fire. Junior academics will often get the thing done (at the cost of their own mental health, but you won’t necessarily see that); senior academics are usually prioritising ruthlessly (it’s the only way they’ve survived), and some of them will see your area as a priority and some won’t.

      Work out who are the people who see you responsibility as important are and go to them first, but also get used to even them ignoring your emails / requests / meetings etc. It’s not personal, it’s just a broken system. If you are grateful and appreciative when someone finally does the thing after 12 email reminders, two missed information meetings, three successive deadlines and a long explanatory phone call, you will get a reputation as an easy person to work with and that goes a long way next time you need something doing.

    5. Hanani*

      Congrats on the new job! I echo that higher ed is just weird, so if you ever find yourself wondering if you’ve moved to the Upside Down, you can feel reassured that it’s the system not you.

      Students and faculty both will repeatedly forget that you don’t have all their same breaks/level of schedule flexibility. It’s not personal, everyone is just very focused on their own life.

      Agree that the hierarchy is Something Else. Develop a good relationship with some tenured faculty and you’ll get a lot more done.

      At a small liberal arts college you work with people rather than offices – spend some time at the beginning getting to know people, going to social events, stopping by to introduce yourself, etc. because it’s so much more effective to do your job when you can send a person or a request to Fatima rather than to the Registrar’s Office.

      I don’t like recommending this, but I had a lot of success saying yes to an ask that was way outside what should have been expected of me – people remembered me and talked about me positively for years as a result. Especially at a SLAC, that tactic can easily also just result in a bunch of unpaid additional work being dumped on you, so tread carefully. All but the wealthiest SLACs are hurting financially and most people do more than their job.

      There will be tons of extremely inefficient ways to do things that Cannot Be Changed because Professor So-and-so won’t have it. Just shrug. There will be some extremely inefficient ways to do things that you will change in ways that feel extremely obvious and everyone will think you are a wizard. Ask what the process is and why before making any changes, to determine which camp it falls into.

      Academia in general is a prestige/mission kind of field (though this is thankfully less of a thing with staff) – it’s okay to say no to extra work even if that extra work would help students. It’s okay to decide it’s not for you. It’s okay for this just to be a job and not a passion. It’s also okay to love it and be totally into it, of course! But if it turns bad or your institution is dealing with financial issues that make the job not stable, put on your own oxygen mask first.

    6. Goddess47*

      –The ‘business cycle’ for higher ed is very different than for business. The school year/academic calendar drives everything. Get hold of it (likely on the website) and be sure to understand the holidays and start and end of the semesters.

      –The faculty schedule is just slightly different from the classroom schedule. Find out what that is.

      –Talk to purchasing/finance about the budget cycle. In the Science department, ordering supplies/equipment/etc needs to be done with the academic calendar in mind. If you’re predecessor didn’t leave you a list, ask for info on the last year’s worth of purchasing. And learn the purchasing process; in the end it won’t be that different from what you might know but there’s always a gotcha.

      –Faculty are no better/worse than anyone. Just because they’re smart enough to be faculty doesn’t mean they aren’t stupid in other ways. There will be the “Oh, I forgot to do/order [whatever] and need it yesterday” types. Learn what you can and cannot do.

      –In a science department, do you care about lab accidents in even the faintest way? The more you know, the less likely someone is to get hurt.

      –The more you learn about whatever data processing/ERP system the college uses, the more useful you are. Find the training and/or documentation and/or local guru. Do not depend on someone else’s notes. Just because their notes work doesn’t mean it’s the right way to do things. If you’re stuck with someone’s notes, ask another person to show you the same process and pick what works best for you. Then ask IT if there’s documentation. There’s *always* documentation somewhere.

      Good luck!

    7. Hyaline*

      So, lots of socially awkward weirdos in higher ed. I say that as one of them. But what that means in practice is try to avoid assuming bad intent when it could very well just be awkwardness. It probably is awkwardness.

      Get to know people. Universities and even smaller colleges can be very siloed, and this gets in the way a lot. You’ve got a leg up if you know that “the person to talk to about the Llama Certification Program is Becky” or “Ralph used to handle Iguana Admissions but now it’s Susan.”

      Especially get to know the folks who once upon a time would have been called “department secretaries” but may now be listed as admins, support specialists, etc. When they’re good, they’re so good, and they know everything about everything.

      Explore career development and non-career kinds of learning opportunities, because there are often free ones you have access to and you may even be paid for learning. You may have access to free coursework or tuition reimbursement. Colleges like learning so they tend to reward it.

      Also check out what might be free or discounted when it comes to the gym on campus, concerts, theater, lectures, even trips or museum passes.

  39. Policy versus Implementation*

    Question: Does this PTO policy seem fair? Our PTO is quite limited and does not roll over. But my job does not give PTO in half days. Sometimes this is good, like if you have to go to a dentists appointment you don’t need to use PTO for that – the guidance is only to enter PTO if you work four hours or less in a day. But the flip side is, I’m often called back to work on what was supposed to be my vacation, so I have lost a PTO day that I actually spent working from the hotel lobby, or I had to pack my work laptop last minute and do “a quick task” that snowballed. If I worked for less than 4 hours, I have lost that PTO. Lately it seems like every trip I take, I end up working at least part of it (the how and why of that is the subject of another comment). If you were in this boat, would you advocate for a change in the PTO policy, or should I just focus on trying to untangle the reasons I end up working on leave?

    1. Mad Scientist*

      That seems ridiculous! I could see it making sense for some very specific jobs, but in most cases, that just seems like a way to dissuade people from truly taking time off.

    2. birder in the backyard*

      Can you retroactively adjust your PTO? I’ve done that when disturbed or pulled into office matters while on vacation. Keep track of the hours, present to manager as 4+ hours total and recover one PTO day. Also, not offering PTO by hours is nuts!

      1. Gumby*

        We only use PTO by full day increments and it works pretty well for us. If I need to take 2 hours off for the dentist, I just report the 6 hours I worked (salaried but project-based so need to track for billing purposes) and go on with my life. I normally make that type of thing up within the pay period with an extra 30 minutes here or there. The key here is that when I am on vacation/PTO – I do not get called back to work. The one (1) time it happened because of a proposal due date, I spent maybe 2-3 hours on it one evening and then that day did not count as PTO at all so my whole vacation only used 4 vacation days even though I was away for a week. So “only use PTO in full day increments” only seems fair if accompanied by “if you do any work at all in the day, it is not PTO.”

    3. Alex*

      I think it would be better to untangle the reasons you end up working on leave!

      What would happen if you said no? What would happen if you were unreachable? First figure out which part of this is you not setting boundaries and which part of this is your employer requiring that you work.

      1. Policy versus Implementation*

        That’s complicated, but basically I’m extremely burned out, and due to the nature of my workload and my bosses’ availability, I would need to do twice as much work in the weeks leading up to an absence – but I’m too burned out to do that, meaning I end up leaving with there still being things that need to be done. I can’t get it all done in advance without more help than I have.

        1. WellRed*

          That’s not solvable or sustainable for you. What happens if you don’t get it all done. If you are a regular here, you know the advice: let balls drop, ask how to prioritize, etc. are you afraid of being fired? Then they’ll really be screwed.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      I would start with trying to untangle the reasons you end up working on leave.

      A few questions to start with:
      * Do you work in a life-or-death industry? What happens if those tasks don’t get done until you get back from vacation?
      * Do other people at your company work on vacation? Or do they fully unplug? (Is this more of a company culture issue or more of a “you” issue?)
      * What happens if you don’t take your work laptop with you on a trip?
      * What happens if you take a trip to a place without internet/phone access?

      2. Policy versus Implementation*

        Unfortunately, it’s not life or death but it is very deadline-driven, with deadlines scattered across every month. It is related to funding so if we miss a deadline we would lose the chance to get money we desperately need. We are a small org (we would hire more if we got more of this money) and unfortunately we all seem to work on vacation, with my boss being among the worst. I do often struggle to have the right files on the right computer with wifi while I’m travelling. If I was going to refuse to bring my laptop I’d have to be super-organized and get everything in my role done super early, which doesn’t happen for a lot of reasons.

    5. ThatGirl*

      If it were me, I would simply refuse to work while on a vacation. I would never take my laptop with me.

      But I realize that this is not always possible; there are sometimes truly urgent tasks that only you can handle. Can you get comp time instead, unofficially? take a few hours off on a slow Friday?

      1. Policy versus Implementation*

        This is what I kind of unofficially do now; knock off early for the day, or just keep an eye on email, because I ended up working several hours that didn’t “count.”

    6. History Nerd*

      While the policies at my work are different, it would be very easy for that to happen at my current job (and it has). My coworkers and I just refuse to be available during our days off. Is that an option for you?

    7. Productivity Pigeon*

      That seems VERY unfair.

      You shouldn’t be punished for doing your employer a favor by working on your vacation. If they call you in, they should credit that PTO.

      (Heck, I’m Swedish and here the rules are that if you get sick on vacation, you call in sick and get sick pay instead of using up a vacation day. Well, you’re supposed to do that but not everyone knows about it and not everyone does it. It depends.)

    8. HonorBox*

      The policy seems unfair, yes.

      Can you NOT take your laptop? Put some parameters in place so you don’t have to take time away from your PTO. It can be a liability for the company. Play that card.

      Also, can you get some of that time back? Like dip out early some day if you do have to log in when you’re on PTO.

      If you HAVE to take your laptop, and if there’s no way to get around the interruptions, I think then it is time to have a conversation with your boss and/or HR because there’s no reason that you should be having to give time back.

    9. Friday Person*

      This is not ideal for a number of reasons, but if you are frequently needing to work, like, 3 hours and 15 minutes on vacation, and the factors leading to that are unlikely to change, I might be tempted to occasionally find something else that needs to get done for the next 46 minutes or so necessary to reclaim it as a work day.

    10. Hyaline*

      Maybe I’m misreading, but it seems that the problem is mostly that you can’t take time off without being recalled to work? If you knew that your day off was OFF darnit and no one was going to call you or require you, I feel like this would be a nonissue? Maybe start there–are there ways even your team can respect PTO, especially given that the policy is not conducive to doing what’s happening with calling people to come work when they’re off for the day?

    11. Anonforthis*

      This used to be me except I could not use PTO I worked during vacation or I needed to take a half day mainly because I worked long hours and weekends.

      Like today I am meant to be off but had a last minute in person meeting this morning and my crazy boss has been emailing and calling me non stop all day (she is also allegedly off). So now when I’m on actual vacation (not just taking. Day) I turn off my work phone and work computer. Seriously. I have a personal phone that’s few people know but unless someone died or it’s a real emergency they know (from experience) not all contact me anymore. My newish boss hates it but that’s my boundary. I sometimes get nasty texts, calls or emails from her, but she thinks everything is an emergency and all of us are trying to jump ship.

      So I recommend doing that if you can and telling your team you won’t answer emails or calls if you’re away and X person is your deputy. Give someone those tasks. It used to bug me because stuff usually want done right or how I wanted but now I don’t care as much anymore because of the insane topboss lady.

      1. Policy versus Implementation*

        Definitely a major problem is that we don’t have cross coverage of my tasks. I could in theory coach someone how to log in and navigate the ever-changing systems I work in, but I know they would be stressed by it, and would probably end up wanting to call me to be talked through it / hand-held anyway.

        1. Hyaline*

          In reading the follow ups–this is not sustainable. I’m not sure if this is something you have standing to address or not, but if you’re burned out, no one can cross-train to cover you, and there isn’t enough staff for you to get done what you need to get done before leaving…yeah. This is not good. Giving you “PTO” that you can’t actually use is kind of the crappy cherry on top.

          1. Policy versus Implementation*

            Haha yea I am trying to jobsearch but that also takes a ton of energy unfortunately

  40. Sneezy*

    Can a career coach take an inventory of my strengths, experience, and skills, and recommend more viable career pathways for me? How do I find a coach who would be a good fit for me? Or good in general? The ones I’ve seen on social media haven’t impressed me.

    Are there coaches who specialize in working with people who face discrimination, etc? I’m a hard-worker and intrinsically motivated, but I’ve only been able to get hired into roles well below my ability level and it’s had a negative impact on my mental health and financial well-being. Also because of this pattern, I’m not really able to assess my situation well – It’s hard to observe organizations’ patterns and strategy when you’re always in the trenches away from those conversations. I need to work with someone who has that experience and knowledge in my industry.

    1. Minji*

      I won’t say career coaches are never helpful, but I’m not sure it’s what would be the most helpful for your situation. If you need someone with experience and knowledge in your industry who can pinpoint why you are having trouble getting hired, I think it would be more helpful for you to talk to someone who is currently hiring in your field, explain your situation, perhaps show them your resume, and see what advice they have. Perhaps a former boss could be helpful, or a current senior colleague? College alumni networks can also be good for forming those sorts of connections.

    1. WellRed*

      How much do you want to bet the company insists on Face Time and Collaboration! This certainly puts that to the test. Also, how depressing. Hopefully, they won’t address it by offering a 14k mountain hike to build team rapport.

      2. Anon today since I'm still riding the stagecoach*

        Minimum 3 days in office is required, cameras preferred to be on for meetings. No chance of a hike (of any length) since it would keep us from our work. I’ve never been able to figure out the purpose of all that; we’re also chastised if we’re caught “wasting time with chitchat.”
        Unfortunately, as this tragic example showed, collaboration has little to do with being in the office.

    3. Wilting Plant*

      Ha I was going to post that here today too. This incident is more proof that companies should NOT care about whether or not an employee works in the office, as long as work is getting done.

      I feel so bad for this poor woman. Of all the places to pass, work is the worst.

      1. WellRed*

        Always thought something like getting flattened y a rack of Twinkies or Ding Dongs seemed pretty bad. Undignified!

  42. Mad Scientist*

    I had an interview earlier this week, and it seemed to go well overall, except for the fact that I answered one of the technical questions completely incorrectly. The question was within my area of expertise, and the error I made was frankly embarrassing. I suddenly realized the error as soon as I woke up the next morning, and in retrospect, it seemed glaringly obvious.

    But I remembered some comments on this site from years ago, encouraging a candidate to reach out to the hiring manager after realizing they made a mistake on a skills assessment during the interview process. So I decided to follow this advice and mention the mistake in my thank-you email to the interviewers. I’m not sure if it was enough to save my chances (because it really was an embarrassing mistake), but the interviewer responded positively and seemed to appreciate that I reached out about it.

    So thank you to the lovely commenters on this site for your abundance of helpful advice over the years! I’m so glad I saw those comments years ago and remembered them when I found myself in a similar situation.

    1. Kathenus*

      That’s great to hear! I think a lot of people, and this could be a sign of a potentially good employer, not only know people are human but appreciate people who take responsibility for mistakes. I had an interview for a job I really wanted years back. I generally interview very well, but was quite nervous in this one and think it really impacted my performance. I acknowledge this in my thank you and got a response saying that they didn’t think I seemed at all nervous, it was good to meet me, and such. I ended up getting the job too.

    2. Cardboard Marmalade*

      I think anyone who has met the “I don’t make mistakes” guy would find it pleasant for someone to acknowledge having made a mistake in a chill, normal way XD

  43. History Nerd*

    Any advice for the not-actually-a-manager who has sort of been put in charge of morale while the actual manager is out on medical leave? We’re all waiting for a new work-from-home policy that is overdue. My manager asked me to try to keep people calm about it while she’s away but I’m anxious for it too and feeling a bit like that’s not my job, even if I am the senior person and older than most of them by a decade.

    1. Danielle*

      I would just not treat the team like children and instead be honest with them about the information you have: you don’t have the work from home policy yet, but the latest communication is that we can expect it by X date. We don’t know yet what it will say, but X employee concerns have been communicated to the higher ups and they have said Y in response. If there are further questions or concerns they would like you to pass on, they can let you know, but that is the information you have at the moment.

      In opinion, you can’t stop people from being anxious, but you can at least help them feel that they are getting clear and fair communication — that nothing is being intentionally delayed or obfuscated — and that never hurts morale.

      1. History Nerd*

        Agree that it’s not worth trying to keep people from being anxious about it – especially when I am too! But that’s a good point about communication. Our grand boss is not good at it and that can create even more anxiety than necessary. Thank you for reminding me of that.

    2. Goddess47*

      Ask your grandboss for an update of any sort so you can share it.

      “While Mabel is out, she asked me to keep an eye on things and the one thing I keep getting asked is about the WFH policy. If there’s not a date it will be released, I am going to share that with anyone who asks.” If you have the political capital to spend, you can then go on to “And should I send anyone who is anxious to you for clarification?” but that’s kind of passive/aggressive… LOL

      If nothing else, *you* get an update from it!

      Good luck!

  44. aaaaaaaaa*

    Any tips for not feeling miserable during longer-term, complicated projects? I feel like I always have a good amount of energy at the beginning of a project, but I get super stressed about the later stages. I do try to chunk the work into bite-size tasks and set achievable deadlines for those, but I think I have trouble keeping my “blinders” on and focusing on the task at hand I just get worried about how I probably messed something up months ago and the other shoe will drop at any moment, or about how much of the project there is remaining, or any other general angst. I also feel like I get bored and hit a wall with the project pretty quickly, which makes me prone to procrastination. I find myself ignoring the deadlines I set for myself because I just have so much dread about the project in general.

    Yes, I do have an anxiety disorder. No, 10 years of therapy and various medications have not helped.

      1. Danielle*

        I’d have different advice if you were just starting out in your career, but if you’ve been working on this with a therapist for ten years and have seen no improvement, I might recommend looking for a job that doesn’t revolve around long-term complicated projects.

        I only say this because I have bad anxiety and had a very similar experience in my previous job. I ended up deciding that that kind of work just isn’t my strength and finding a new job where I mainly work on tasks with shorter-term deadlines. I’m SO much happier now and feel like I’m finally the high-performing worker I always wanted to be.

      2. Danielle*

        Is there any way you can be less involved towards the end of the projects — maybe the tasks at the beginning are more specialized in a certain way that you could work on focusing on more?

        1. aaaaaaaaa*

          Not really. I am an admin at a smallish nonprofit, so it’s very much a “wear many hats” job.

  45. Margaret Cavendish*

    Argh, just a vent about employers not putting the salary range in their job ads! I’m in an industry where the titles aren’t standardized, so a manager in one organization could be doing the same work as a director in another, or an individual contributor in a third. I’m not too fussed about the title, but I really do need to know about the salary before I apply.

    So many companies talk about their commitment to good governance, recruiting top talent, and equity – and don’t post their salary ranges. I feel like writing back with a manifesto about how not posting salary ranges is hurting women and minorities, but I know it’s not worth my time. So I’ll just vent here instead!

    1. But maybe not*

      There’s an organization I partner with closely at my job, and my contacts there will frequently send me postings to share with my network. My question back to them is always “What’s the hiring range?” because I refuse to share without it. They usually claim they don’t know…and I say thank you and delete the email. I wish my state would pass a law requiring hiring ranges in posting, but it’s a long shot (we favor the corporation in these parts).

    2. History Nerd*

      That is really frustrating! Most people work because we need money, not for the love of the work environment, so salary should be one of the details that is ALWAYS included.

    3. Justin*

      I mean, this is the law in many states now, so I’d see about advocating for this policy changing in your location. My mom runs a womens’ rights law firm that was part of the NY state law being passed and it’s so helpful.

  46. Resumr*

    I know this has been asked before but having a dilemma about resume length. Mine is slightly longer than 1 page. Would it be weird if instead of going to two pages and having a bunch of white space on page 2 I just lengthen the page since no one prints anymore? So instead of 8.5×11 make it 8.5×14 or something? Google docs has the endless page more so it seems like this should be ok.

    1. Mad Scientist*

      I wouldn’t recommend it! I do still print resumes when I interview someone. And I’m sure it could get cut off or trimmed automatically by some online application systems. You would be better off reducing the margins, line spacing, and/or font size (10 pt minimum).

    2. TX_Trucker*

      We still print resumes in my industry. Can you go to 1.5 pages at least? Maybe make your name or category headers in a larger font to use up some space?

    3. Minji*

      My boss still prints out resumes and hands them out to people in meetings since he prefers not to have everyone clicking between them in meetings.

    5. Random Academic Cog*

      Don’t recommend using a non-standard length. But do consider wordsmithing your duties lists. Every resume I’ve ever reviewed had at least some entries that could have been condensed using active voice and combining related duties into a single line of text. You’d be surprised at how much space you can save combining related concepts (e.g., developed and managed annual budget, created and taught curriculum for new process).

  47. Never Knew I was a Dancer*

    Question for the hive mind: How would you expect time off to be handled (or how would your org handle it) in the following situation?

    Scenario: You schedule vacation time for two weeks, and get approval to use vacation time for it. Shortly after your vacation begins, you get sick for multiple days. It’s bad enough that, if it were a work day, you would have needed to use your sick time because you were in absolutely no shape to work, leave the house (hotel, AirBnB, whatever).

    Are you able to go back and adjust your request to change vacation days out for sick days, for the days you were sick?

    1. WorkerDrone*

      To me, and how I would expect my org to see it, once the employee is actually physically/literally on vacation time, it’s “their” time and while it’s unfortunate they were sick, it’s not relevant to the employer.

      So getting sick on vacation would be the same as getting sick on a weekend – not the employer’s time, and it sucks but it isn’t appropriate to switch to or use sick leave.

      If someone got ill the evening before vacation leave started – vacation time was approved but the employee isn’t literally on vacation leave yet – I could see switching to sick leave.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        That’s always been my experience as well, with one addendum. If the illness lasts long enough to delay the return to work after the vacation, then I’ve seen the vacation retroactively converted to sick leave discretionarily. It’s literally been the high-performers who have excellent relationships with their supervisors who have been able to do that; we plebs are just SOL.

      2. Pocket Mouse*

        Ah, that’s an interesting scenario: sick enough before the start of vacation to cancel the trip and therefore vacation days altogether. Yes, I can see this happening in sequence: vacation leave requested, vacation leave approved, get sick, cancel all approved vacation leave, take sick leave as needed.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I once got the flu while taking a week off during the winter holidays. I had no expectation that I could turn it into sick time. It was just bad luck.

    3. Cordelia*

      I’m in the UK health service so I know it is entirely different, but in case it’s of interest – yes, if you get sick during your vacation you can change it to sick leave instead, and keep the vacation for another time. The rules about needing to provide medical evidence are stricter though, but I can’t recall what. It’s not something you’d expect to do if e.g. you caught a cold on vacation and had a couple of days hanging round the hotel rather than going out hiking, it’s more for if you are so sick you had to cancel your trip and stay in bed.

      1. TechWorker*

        This is actually U.K. law, so all U.K. companies have to do it, although I’m sure there are some who would push back.

    4. Pocket Mouse*

      My employer has a policy specifically about this, so I’d check your employer’s policies. If this situation isn’t mentioned, I would assume it can’t be converted to sick leave.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I would expect my org to consider being sick on vacation a personal problem, but they also give managers a lot of discretion.

      I think my manager would probably convert a day or 2, but not more than that.

    6. Kay*

      Were you otherwise scheduled to be/would you otherwise be at work is the relevant question for me – if not, it sucks but that is life. For the record this has happened to me. Now if I got sick, cancelled vacation and came back to work earlier than my scheduled vacation – I could certainly expect a discussion and hopefully them allowing a switch to sick time (I also expect this to vary based on things like performance, standing, etc).

    7. SickTimeOnPTO*

      I’ve done this several times, but it’s totally at the discretion of my manager at the time.

    8. GythaOgden*

      Yes, we can do that if it interferes with being able to take the trip or with a staycation. I don’t think it would really fly if you went away and came down with a bug while away and recovered quickly enough to enjoy the rest of the holiday.

      In your case, a day or two unable to leave the house on a two-week trip would probably not qualify.

  48. Medium Sized Manager*

    Just want to celebrate with people who will appreciate it: I had a fantastic interview with somebody I was ready to hire immediately (but had to officially go through the supplier). I extended the offer late last night, and she accepted in less than an hour. I am so stinking excited for her to join our team!!

    What’s your win of the week?

    1. Elle Woods*

      Congrats! That’s exciting!

      My win this week? I removed myself as a volunteer from an organization I used to really love. The org got new leadership about a year ago and has become a hot mess of dysfunction and nastiness. Feels good to no longer be associated with that mess!

      1. Medium Sized Manager*

        Congratulations on stepping away from something that was no longer serving you!

  49. Asking for a Friend*

    I was looking at the career page of a mid-sized manufacturing company recently, and something there strikes me as odd, though I can’t quite pinpoint what bothers me: there’s only a listing for unsolicited applications specifically for candidates with disabilities, and the page is empty otherwise, with no other postings.

    I am curious, if this is common practice and if this genuinely contributes to diversity & inclusion practices, or somehow unintentionally introduces more bias in the selection process. Would appreciate any opinions on this! Thank you

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      That sounds really problematic, unless they are trying to specifically recruit people who have developmental delays and might need job coaching, but even then, it should be explained! (And I would expect some information about any government agencies they might work with for those who are interested.)

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        My state closed all their sheltered workshops and is all in on CIE as much as possible. (But some people still need job coaches and extra support.)

    3. TX_Trucker*

      There are grant programs that reimburse employers (fully or partially) and/or provide tax credits for hiring folks with targeted disabilities.

  50. Minji*

    I’m on a team where the work we do is significantly different from what most of our coworkers do. You can think of it like most of the office is very high-powered corporate attorneys, and we are the people who proofread their legal briefs (it’s not quite that situation but it’s very similar). We are by far the lowest-paid and least impressively educated team in the office, and we have no path to promotion — but we are quite experienced proofreaders who take a lot of pride in our work, and the briefs cannot go out without our signoff.

    Because our work is so specialized and separate, we do not really have a manager; we are technically under the VP who is in charge of legal briefs but she is many levels above us on the org chart, none of us have ever spoken to her, and she does not, as far as we’re aware, know anything about our daily work. (This is not an uncommon arrangement for our position in our field.) We just proofread the briefs as they come to us.

    This is where the problems start. All briefs technically have a “deadline” of 4 p.m., and we never miss this deadline, but many of the attorneys and executives are fast-paced people and get very impatient. In particular, two very high-up and powerful attorneys, Leslie and Ron, are constantly trying to rush us to the extent that we can’t please them both. A typical day will go something like:

    9:00 Leslie drops off three briefs. We begin working on Leslie’s Brief 1.
    9:30 Ron drops off three briefs.
    10:30 Ron comes back, demanding to know why we haven’t started proofreading his briefs yet when he dropped them off an hour ago and complaining that his client needs them ASAP. We apologize and say we’re in the middle of Leslie’s Brief 1, but we’ll get to his briefs as soon as we’re done with it. Ron leaves, clearly very annoyed.
    11:00 We finish Leslie’s Brief 1 and begin working on Ron’s briefs.
    12:00 Leslie comes back, demanding to know why we haven’t started proofreading Leslie’s Briefs 2 and 3 yet when she dropped them off three hours ago and complaining that her client needs them ASAP. We apologize and say we’re in the middle of Ron’s Brief 2, but we’ll get back to hers as soon as we’re done with it. Leslie leaves, clearly very annoyed.
    Cycle repeats ad infinitum.

    Do folks have any suggestions for how to respond to this behavior? We are really fed up with it.

    1. WorkerDrone*

      When someone drops off a brief, can you say something like: “Briefs will be returned by 4pm at the latest, but be aware they are first-come-first-served and we cannot guarantee an earlier turn-around time”?

      In my job, (which is very different and maybe not relevant) we’ve found that you need to either make it clear it’s first-come-first-served, OR make the triage process as to what briefs get priority over others more clear. I wouldn’t have dropped Leslie’s briefs to rush to Ron’s brief’s, and I can see how Leslie might be annoyed by that.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Do folks have any suggestions for how to respond to this behavior? We are really fed up with it.

      My strategery:
      I would document one or two of these sessions, then present it to your nominal supervisor as a “normal occurance” and ask them to impose a strict queue structure–first in, first out–and stick with it. Route any complaining to Management (that *is* why Management gets the high compensation, right?).

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Whiteboard with a worklist? “First come first served, as always. Our current task list is right there. We’ll have everything back to you by 4pm or sooner.”

      (Put a drop box outside and lock your workroom door so they can’t come in and harangue you? :P )

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Also – does the whole team have to work on the same job at the same time, or could you split it up, some of you work on Ron’s and some on Leslie’s?

        1. Minji*

          We sometimes split it up, but pulling that many people off a project generally slows it down enough that it is finished at the same time regardless.

          We are working on systems to speed up the proofreading process as a whole, but without a real manager, getting them implemented has been a bit…complicated. That could be a whole other Ask A Manager post, haha

      2. Anonymous cat*

        I used to work at a place with a system like this for people who shared assistants. One person would inspect the board and then tell the assistant(s) they didn’t need to do Coworker’s work next because (reasons).

        The assistants knew to ignore that and follow the board. If something was a genuine rush, anyone could go to the actual boss and have it bumped up. Actual boss was a reasonable person about these requests but was not impressed by line jumpers.

        It was much fairer to the assistants since they didn’t get stuck in office politics.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Do you have any protocol at all in place? Or is the team making decisions about which brief to do next on an ad-hoc basis?

      You could put in a straight “first come, first served” protocol that has no exceptions. Or you could take this back to Ron and Leslie and ask them to decide on their own protocol so that you aren’t stuck in the middle of their competing needs and deadlines. Or you could set up some kind of rating scheme for Ron and Leslie to tell you whether something has a higher or lower urgency. Or your protocol could be “only the proofreading team decides our workflow, and that is the rule, and Ron and Leslie do not have a say in the order in which we complete the briefs.” Or some mix of protocols. The point being, if you have no protocol at all right now, there are no rules for anyone to follow, and it’s not surprising that Ron and Leslie get irritated at you and you get irritated at them.

      1. Minji*

        Yeah, it is generally understood and expected that we will do things in the order they come in, and Ron and Leslie are sort of both coming in and demanding to be an exception to that.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          From what you’ve posted, it seems to me that it’s not truly generally understood and expected, though. Maybe the team can write up an actual protocol so that Ron and Leslie and the team are all on the same page.

            1. lurkers*

              You also need to make it clear what happens if you drop off multiple at once. In the example you gave it seems like you are not doing a true first in first out process. Leslie dropped hers off first, but you only reviewed one of hers before going to Ron’s. That would be annoying if the process is supposed to be first in first out. Your team should define a written policy and let the attorneys know, and then follow it.

    5. NaoNao*

      Some kind of ticket system/tracker seems like the best option here. It will have the same information basically day in and out, but give them the link so they can see the status of their request “live”.

  51. Intern Interest*

    Hi! Need some opinions here.

    My partner (30s, straight male) works in person at a big government adjacent company. He has a baby face and a friendly demeanor so he gets mistaken as younger a lot. He is new to his company. A cohort of interns started and one intern got along with him well, he was in charge of some of her tasks in the rotation. She is a recent college grad and would confide in my partner about the older men at the company hitting on her or making inappropriate comments. My partner told the intern to report it to HR and offered to tell his boss if she didn’t feel comfortable. She did end up reporting them, unfortunately, nothing really happened to the men as they’re senior, but they did leave her alone.

    Over time, my partner and the intern exchanged numbers and they text back and forth. I was mildly uncomfortable with this because as the intern, it doesn’t feel like good boundaries (unless it’s texting about work.) but the intern will confide health issues, look for romantic advice, send pictures of herself (nothing lewd! My partner has been sharing all the texts with me. Just random selfies.), and just send “Hi wyd” late at night, which will lead to him texting all night. The intern has finished her rotation last week.

    My partner says he feels bad, so he will text back and send pictures back (no selfies, just pictures of what he’s looking at at the time), and try to keep things brief. I told him I feel uncomfortable because there’s a dynamic of intern and worker, and while he won’t be part of her hiring, it reads strange to me to be friends with the intern and text so much. I have had interns (even one closer to me in age) and I don’t feel an interest in texting with them unless it’s work related.

    My partner doesn’t feel like there’s anything wrong with it because she’s ended her internship. He says he tries not to engage on the romance topics, but he doesn’t try to shut it down. He feels like she might see him as a big brother. He also says that maybe I’m feel “jealous” because she’s a younger woman, which I was not happy with that comment. He has friends who are younger women and I like them, but this dynamic is strange to me. Like if one of your coworkers found about this, would you feel weird about it?

    So can someone help me decide if I am overreacting to this? I do not think my partner is cheating to be clear, he’s been very transparent about the texts (which is how I know the content.)

    1. Intern Interest*

      *also to be clear, I find this as poor boundaries by my partner, not so much the intern, who is still learning how this all works!

      1. Rosie*

        Seems a bit strange to me. If the internship has ended and they want to be friends, then fine? But continuing the relationship because he ‘feels bad’ or doesn’t ‘shut it down’ is a weird halfway house. I think he needs to reflect on what he actually wants from the texting relationship and where his boundaries really are.

        1. Intern Interest*

          I think he partially does want to be friends! From what we’ve discussed, he felt bad because she hadn’t made many friends in her internship and is having health issues. Still, I feel like being friends with the intern feels weird in general? But I could be old school/too boundaried with that! I perhaps had too many negative experiences with men at work that I don’t want to do that.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      It’s weird, and it’s going to give her weird ideas about business norms, but ultimately that part is not your problem. The part where you’re going “Hey, this is weird” and he’s going “You’re just jealous that I’m texting with a younger woman!” — that’s your actual problem, and personally one I’d have a serious come to Jesus with him about, but YMMV.

      1. Intern Interest*

        You’re right, the come to Jesus is certainly happening! While it isn’t my problem with the intern, I am curious of responses to it, as my partner will be checking this thread too. He’s curious if he is actually doing something “wrong.” (And I don’t think that’s the right word, maybe just inappropriate.)

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Yeah, I don’t know about WRONG per se, but definitely weird, and it’s almost definitely going to give her ideas about how one interacts with coworkers that may come back to bite her or someone else in the butt later, which is definitely not doing well by her in terms of teaching her business norms. (But at the same time, he’s not doing very well at abiding by reasonable business norms either.)

          1. WellRed*

            For me, in particular, it’s the selfie sending. Sure, intern is from the selfie generation but I have sent selfies exactly zero times to any coworkers.

            1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

              I did … once. To my former boss. After dental surgery. Which is why nobody lets me have my phone until 24 hours after sedation anymore.

        2. Agathe Bauer*

          Maybe not wrong, but something the intern will probably look back on in time and think “that guy should have known better”

        3. Hlao-roo*

          Because your partner is reading this thread, I recommend you both read the “my wife says my relationship with my coworker is inappropriate” post from May 17, 2022. And the comments from the letter-writer (in the comments section as Oblivious OP).

          It’s not exactly the same scenario, but there are some parallels and that post could be useful in helping both of you determine where the boundaries of OK/not OK are.

          I’ll put the link in a reply to this comment.

    3. Agathe Bauer*

      As someone who has had “work brother” type of relationships with coworkers slightly older than me…it might just be me but I’ve NEVER sent a late night “hi wyd” to anyone I was looking at as a sibling.

      1. Agathe Bauer*

        Also, the responses the intern is getting back have to be more than “I’m sending this because I feel bad for her” types of things. The “work brother” relationship doesn’t just come about because someone looks to be about your age. I can think of several people I work with who appear to be around my age but I would rather eat a bath loofah than converse with them outside work.

        1. Ali + Nino*

          100%!!! Do NOT respond to that text. Just politely pretend it never happened and move on.

    4. He Knows Exactly What He Is Doing*

      If I was doing this my partner would begin divorce proceedings and I would deserve it.

    5. allx*

      As you have noted, you have a partner problem, not an intern problem. This is not a work situation where he is providing mentorship. It is in fact weird that he late-night/otherwise texts with her as friends and has to jump to respond to her because he feels bad for her (why?), and that he “tries” not to engage on romantic topics. Oh, please. He is getting some emotional need met whether he acknowledges it or not, and that bullshit about “you’re just jealous because she’s younger” is major misdirecting.

      Instead of claiming all the reasons why you are over-reacting, your partner should be interested in prioritizing your comfort and his relationship with you over a professed unimportant relationship with intern. Your partner is flattered by her interest. And he is being dishonest about that.

    6. WellRed*

      You are not overreacting. He’s being unfair to you and slightly inappropriate with the intern.

    7. Alex*

      I would argue that the fact she is a younger woman *is* part of the problem. It is part of what makes this an ick. He’s having a not-quite-appropriate relationship with a younger woman, and possibly giving her the wrong idea by responding to late night Hey wyd texts. This isn’t JUST that she’s a younger woman, but there’s a gender dynamic here as well as a power dynamic that makes this something he, as the one with more power here, should feel able to shut down.

      You’ve spoken to him and he, for whatever reason, does not want to or does not feel good shutting this down. That is a problem. He claims he is only doing it because he “feels bad” but you have pointed out that it is inappropriate and he needs to be able to professionally extract himself and see that as a normal thing to do. He is giving her the impression that this kind of relationship with an older, married, more senior coworker is OK. She may not actually know that it is not ok! But it is part of his job to let her know, and he can’t use “I feel bad” to get out of that responsibility, to both you, her, and his employer.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Exactly. Each individual fact isn’t really “that bad” but they sure combine into a Bad Idea Voltron (image courtesy Captain Awkward)

    8. DisneyChannelThis*

      Since this is the work questions open thread I won’t touch the personal life problems. From a work stand point, yes its very weird to be texting your interns outside of work and about matters not related to work.

      As a mentor to interns you have an obligation to help them learn workplace norms and further their career goals. This is like the exact opposite.

    9. Morning Gloria*

      It’s inappropriate, both in the context of work and in the context of a relationship. If I found out that one of my employees was developing personal friendships with recent former interns, I would question their professional judgement.

      Texting itself is not bad, but many partners would find late night texting sessions to be disrespectful and questionable. He may not see it as romantic, but it sounds like she does. Why is he leading her on?

      1. HonorBox*

        I don’t know that developing a friendship with a former intern is awful in and of itself. But if I found out about this level of texting between and employee and intern (especially when they’re different sexes) I’d question the judgement for sure.

    10. Hyaline*

      All right I’m going to be judgmental and possibly unfair, but here it goes: Your partner is being unfair to you and to this intern, motivated probably by the fact that he likes the attention he is getting from her. He knows that late night texts with an intern are Not Great, but he likes that she’s paying attention to him, so he’s not been willing to stop it. His engagement may be lukewarm, but she’s still coming back to it, so even if he tried for the “but I wasn’t trying to lead her on” defense, all signs point to “she felt she could keep texting you soooo…”. Frankly, he needs to shut it down and set up some better boundaries.

    11. HonorBox*

      I think it is weird. I have had good relationships with interns before, but never got into any sort of depth via text. There have been discussions in the office that are more personal in nature, but still very surface level.

      The fact that you are not OK with it, whether that’s rooted in jealousy or not, is really the major issue here.

    12. Serious Pillowfight*

      The whole situation skeeves me out. Is it possible she has a crush on him and he’s enjoying the attention? Late-night “wyd” texts, (texting all night??????), selfies, and the confiding about personal issues definitely read to me like she has a thing for him and/or wants him to have a thing for her. It’s inappropriate even if there’s no cheating going on. And if she doesn’t even work there anymore (does that mean she went from intern to employee, or is she completely done at the company?), now there’s literally no appropriate reason for him to be texting her because he can’t use “but we work together” as an excuse. You’re his partner and you’ve told him this situation (understandably) makes you uncomfortable, so why is he still doing it? “I feel bad for her” is a lame excuse. He’s prioritizing her feelings over yours.

    13. TheBunny*

      I don’t think it’s crazy wrong.

      That said, I’m thinking it feels more wrong to you because there was some boundary crossing when she was an intern so it adds an additional element of…something.

      If they stay friends, all good.

      But he was wrong to say your issues with it are because she’s young.

    14. Concerning*

      Among all the other points being made, he says this is fine because she’s no longer an intern, but this behavior started when she WAS an intern and he didn’t put a stop to it them. In even the best case scenario here, he’s not being honest with himself.

  52. Danielle*

    I’m fairly junior in my current company; I’ve been in my current role for about six months. I’m assigned to my team (I’ll call it Team A) but occasionally have to collaborate with members of Team B, including with a senior member of Team B I’ll call Sienna. I’ve never had anything but pleasant and agreeable interactions with Sienna—there have been a few times when she’s suggested changes to my work, but as far as I can remember I’ve always agreed and gone with what she wanted.

    A few months ago, a role opened up on Team B that I felt would be a great fit for my skillset and a big step up from my current role. My manager on Team A agreed and let the Team B hiring manager know that I was interested. I was informed by friends on Team B a few days later that the decision had come down to me vs. an external candidate and they had all been asked to weigh in.

    Then something happened that I did not expect: Sienna went on a rampage against me. I was told by concerned friends on Team B that, in the week that followed, she spent significant portions of three different work lunches outlining why I was a terrible person that the team should, under no circumstances, hire. Her criticisms apparently included that I’m “too stubborn and argue back too much,” that I “think I’m always right,” and that I “think I know everything.” Other members of Team B spoke up to defend me, but Sienna is one of the most senior members of Team B and very close with the hiring manager, I was soon informed that the Team B hiring manager had chosen the external candidate without even offering me an interview.

    I feel really blindsided by this, and just cannot figure out why Sienna would have this impression of me. I have literally rifled back through my Slack messages with her to try to find places where I might’ve “argued back” and come up empty; truly I see nothing but professional interactions. Hers are also never criticisms I’ve received from my direct manager, who has only ever been satisfied with my performance since I joined the company as far as I know. That said, Sienna clearly has the ear of Team B’s leadership, and possibly those of other higher-ups as well, as she is quite senior to me and is in many more of these lunches and meetings than I am, so I am worried about her claims spreading further.

    I feel like I’m losing my mind trying to figure out what I did wrong to give her this impression of me. (I have also gotten to know the external candidate they ended up hiring and he did not have a pre-existing relationship with Sienna, so I don’t think it was an effort to get him hired.) Is there anything I can do here to find out what’s behind this? Or is this like the letter last week where I just need to leave this alone since I didn’t hear any of it myself?

    1. Productivity Pigeon*

      That is SO odd.

      I mean, it’s pretty rare to feel that strongly about someone at work in general and even weirder to spend THREE lunches going on about it.

      Especially if she’s given you no indication there were any issues. How much have you had to do with Sienna?
      It doesn’t sound like you’ve been working together everyday for months but maybe that’s just my interpretation?

      It honestly sounds like it’s a Sienna problem and not a You Problem.

      Especially if you’ve gotten good feedback and they recommended that you apply….

    2. Garden Pidgeons*

      This sucks – sorry to hear it!

      I wonder if you can get your manager on Team A to do some digging on your behalf – either to go to the Team B manager and ask for feedback, and/or to go directly to Sienna and say “hey, I heard you had some concerns about my repor, do you have examples I can dig in to?”.

      Either this will flush out the problem (e.g. if there was something you did that’s been blown out of proportion) or set the record straight and help mitigate the claims spreading further.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        I tend to agree. It may be uncomfortable to take to your current manager since there’s a weird “gossipy” vibe to the whole thing, but it’s also reasonable to debrief with your boss after not being selected in internal hiring to ask if she can provide any feedback for you.

        Your manager may have to do digging like GP suggests above, but they can hopefully come back to you with some general vibe checks and let you know if Sienna is completely out to lunch or if there’s some element of truth you can work on ahead of the next internal opportunity (to be clear, Sienna’s behaviour sounds like a wild overreaction even if it turns out you’re, say, more abrasive than you realize.) I suggest this approach because it’s worth at least entertaining the idea there’s something for you to take away from all of this, but mostly because asking for feedback about your own side of things is a good way to bring your boss into the loop in a professional way.

      2. ronda*

        yes, it sounds like you have a good relationship with your manager and they might be able to provide some insight and help.

        I think you could also contact Sienna in writing and say you have been hearing some gossip that she has problems with the way you work with her and you would like to meet to solve these issues. You thought things were going well, but would like to correct them if you are mistaken about this.
        See what she does about that. There is a chance you are doing something annoying, but it is more likely some kind of jealous reaction on her part. But you can see if she tries to explain it ( I feel like she will probably ignore you).
        Basically stop trying to guess and just ask. In writing, to show you asked her to talk about this and give you feedback.
        (if your boss has some insight about Sienna that makes this not a good idea, you likely want to follow what your boss advices about this)

    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      My conspiracy theory about this: She knew/was friends with/had a crush on the external candidate and this was her way of putting her thumb on the scale and had nothing to do with you.

    4. M2*

      How do you know these people are telling you the truth?

      If she had been nothing but nice to you and has shown you no ill will I would give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the entire team or manager wanted the external candidate and Sienna was the fall guy. Or maybe it took her X years to be promoted so she was upset you would be, who knows.

      Honestly at most organization you have to be in a role for a year or more to be promoted or move. I have seen that as a policy in a lot of places and sometimes I want to promote someone at month 6 but have to wait until
      Month 12. It is usually a good policy because you have a better idea of their strengths and weaknesses and 6 months might be the honeymoon period where things are great. People usually also give newer hires more leeway as well so waiting a minimum of 12 months to move ir be promoted is usually the norm.

      I’m not saying you didn’t deserve the promotion but maybe the external candidate was a better fit, had more years of experience and the rest of the team wanted you because they liked you but any work you couldn’t do would fall to Sienna. Someone was moved to under me without my approval once and they didn’t have that experience and everything then couldn’t do was more work for me, either by constantly training them or doing the actual work. Team mates had no idea that it fell to me as the manager/ more senior person.

      I would do your best work, try hard, be cordial, but be guarded around Sienna, but also realize what was said might not be the truth or the entire truth.

      1. M2*

        I keep making mistakes because I’m on my phone which loves to somehow autocorrect things incorrectly? Ugh.

      2. Danielle*

        That’s all fair, and there definitely may have been some qualifications the external candidate had that I didn’t have.

        To answer the question, I definitely can’t know for sure that what they are telling me is true, but I have heard similar accounts from several different people, so unless there is some large conspiracy going on to deceive me…

  53. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

    hi! I am looking for strategies/verbiage to use to ask my boss for more PTO. for context, I work at a 10 person creative firm where i am a mid-level team member (and the only one in my role). I have 15 days PTO a year, which aligns with junior staff. Senior staff have 20 and 25 days (there are two and one negotiated better). I coming out of the tail end of a horrendous period of burnout and i think additional PTO would really help me get ahead of that in the future. 15 days doesnt leave a lot of wiggle room after holiday asks (we are open through the end of the year) and one vacation, and it’s worth noting we use the same bank for sick and PTO days. I think my boss would be open to it, but i need to ask in the right way. help me!

    1. Lisa*

      Generally you would bring it up in the context of a performance or salary review. Assuming that your performance has been satisfactory, you could say something like “In recognition of X Y and Z accomplishments/contributions I have made this year, would you be open to giving me additional days of vacation?”

    2. Bitte Meddler*

      I got more PTO when, after a positive performance review, I was only given the standard COLA raise (which that company called a “merit” raise, LOL). I said, “Well, since there isn’t any money in the budget for a true merit raise, could I get an extra week of vacation?”

      I added that while I’d only been with that specific company for two years, I had 20+ years of professional experience and would appreciate the extra paid time off that comes with that level of experience.

  54. CherryBlossom*

    How do I find a bland, boring, no corporate culture place to work?

    I remember a letter on here from ages ago about a workplace where no one ever joked, spoke to each other, and it was generally always silent. The LW hated it, but it sounds like my dream! Nothing but quiet and whatever music I like on my earbuds is my paradise.

    But how do I phrase questions about corporate culture when I don’t want one at all? I feel like “Are people going to leave me alone here?” is obviously too blunt, but I cannot think of a professional way to ask. Help!

    For what it’s worth, I’m a career admin, so I can work in most any industry. If anyone knows of any industries that are particularly known for this, I’d love those suggestions.

    1. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

      I would ask about company culture in a way that doesnt lead one way or the other – interviewers can assume people WANT big, bright, engaging culture and lead their answer that way possibly. something like “what would you say the noise levels/amount of mingling/expectations of socialization are on a regular basis?”

    2. spcepickle*

      I work for the state of Washington – We have doubled down on remote work for many people. We have all kinds of paperwork based jobs at home that could be done with minimal human interaction. After working in both private industry and the government, if you like paperwork by yourself find a government job.

      For interview questions I would ask about work flow, what is the expected work for for this position? How much of it is independent work? Also asking how many people are regularly in the office, there is still lots of hybrid work going on – so knowing how full and lively the office is are fair questions.

      That said – I am always super interested in this point of view, because making connections at work is so important to me. If you hit a snag and don’t know how to do something who do you call? How do you hear about new policies rolling out or what the upcoming budgets look like? How do you know what jobs are going to open up because so and so just applied for a promotion or this person is getting ready to retire? I have found that I am so much better at my job when I have a network of people with whom I have shared a minor personal connection.

      1. CherryBlossom*

        That’s so interesting, because those things are so different to me. To me, having a connection with a work colleague means I feel comfortable asking them about procedures and work flows. That’s perfectly fine for me. As for policy roll outs and budgets, I’ve just always get that info either in newsletters or from my managers. If I don’t hear about it, it’s probably not important to me.

        Then again, as an admin, we tend to be a little separate from everyone else in the office ecosystem anyways, so I don’t often need to be as mired in who’s retiring or what jobs are open or what have you.

        If they start prying into my weekend plans and personal life, or if I’m constantly subjected to loud conversations about pop culture and other non-work topics, that’s too far for me. Constant laughing and rambunctious yelling about topics I don’t care about and can’t escape from give me headaches, and that’s what I’m trying to avoid.

    4. WellRed*

      I guess you could try Wells Fargo. Upthread, someone linked to a story about an employee who died and wasn’t discovered for three days. It’s funny, what I consider corporate environment sounds like the opposite for you.

      1. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

        agreed. i had to reread a couple times….to me, corporate is greige, bland corny sameness.

        1. CherryBlossom*

          Ha! I guess it’s because I’m in an area with a lot of young people and recent grads, so in an effort to court them, a lot of companies have adopted aspects of of “start up” corporate culture. Bean bags, happy hours, in-office watch parties…cute for the kiddos, but exhausting for me!

    5. Excel Gardener*

      Try mostly/entirely remote jobs at big companies/the government. That’s been my experience anyway.

      Though honestly, I used to think I’d like jobs like this, but now I feel my current job is too far in the other extreme. I wish I had a bit more camaraderie and light hearted conversations with coworkers during the day. I definitely don’t like loud, highly social workplaces either, I’ve never found the right balance.

  55. PhD Fail*

    I’m working on my PhD right now, and yesterday took a 4 hour exam that I am very confident I failed. In the grand scheme this isn’t a big deal, I’ll still keep my standing and I can take it again next year, but I’m just feeling like a complete failure.

    I know if I tell people I think I failed, they’ll say “oh I’m sure you did better than you thought,” but I know myself and I know I failed. Them saying that doesn’t help, and I don’t want to talk about the exam.

    So, my question, is twofold. How do I deal with my feelings and how do I approach it with others?

    It definitely will come up, we all had to take them this week. I’m thinking I’ll just say something breezy, like “we’ll see. Nothing to do but wait!” and changing the subject.

    Any advice?

    1. Garden Pidgeons*

      I had something similar where I took a morning off for a driving test, failed, and hated people at work then asking me about it and having to relive my failure.

      I think you can say something like “Trying not to dwell on it before the results are out!” and then immediately move the conversation on to a different subject.

    2. WorkerDrone*

      I had a similar experience; for approaching it with others, I’d made the “ugh, you know how it is” face and say something like, “It didn’t go well, but I would rather not dwell on it and just tackle it again next year. How did yours go?”

      For yourself? Just remember – EVERYONE will fail. Some people will coast through grad school and fail to get a job. Some will coast through hiring and fail to get tenure. Some will coast through tenure and then fail to every produce another piece of scholarship again.

      Everyone fails. That doesn’t make everyone a failure. Try to speak to yourself about this experience the same way you’d speak to a beloved friend; if you wouldn’t call your best friend a failure, don’t allow yourself to call yourself a failure.

      1. PhD Fail*

        Thank you! I really needed to hear this.

        Any advice for advisors? One of my advisors kept mentioning how there was no reason for me to worry and he was sure I’d be fine. I’m very confident I passed his exam (there are 2 you have to take), it’s the other one I failed.

        Something like, “I think [your subject] went well!” then changing the subject?

        1. Reebee*

          I mean, there’s no magic script. Just be honest with yourself (feelings) and your advisors, who will know eventually. In the meantime, I’d focus on how to improve for next time.

    3. DrSalty*

      I think your strategy for talking about it sounds good.

      In terms of dealing with your feelings, I’m a big fan of giving myself space to feel them and then moving on. It’s ok to be upset for a little bit. Maybe journal or give yourself permission to wallow for a day. The key is then you have to move on to whatever’s next. But getting it all out helps me move on. Onward and upward!

      Good luck!

    4. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      How you approach it with others: Lead with an indication of what kind of response you want from them.

      “Can I just vent for minute while you make sympathetic face and don’t try to talk to me about it? I’m pretty sure I just failed Big Exam and I’m having all these feelings about it, I just want to tell someone who’ll listen… Thanks, I appreciate you hearing me. Feel free to ask if you ever want me to do the same for you.”

      “Can you remind me of some things I’m competent at or appreciated for? I’m pretty sure I just failed Big Exam and I don’t want to talk about that, but I think a reminder of successes would help me feel better about one bad exam. Thanks, knowing you respect me for XYZ really helps.”

      “Hey, can we just not talk about Big Exam? After spending 4 hours on it, I do not want to even think about it for one more minute. How about that subject change?”

      How to deal with your feelings… just feel them, acknowledge them (in the privacy of your mind not a conversation if you don’t want to talk about it), and if the feelings are big enough to get in your way or don’t resolve on their own in a few days, consider talking it out with friends, advisor, or university mental health support?

    5. Meh*

      To quote an awesome comic strip (Schlock Mercenary)
      Maxim 70. Failure is not an option – it is mandatory. The option is whether or not to let failure be the last thing you do.

      You can be matter of fact about it. “it sucked but worst case I will try again next year”. Most people will give you empathy and you’ll be surprised that you aren’t the only one who had that experience and overcame it.

    6. Phder*

      If it is any consolation, I failed my PhD qualifying exam but am now close to finishing! So much of doing a PhD is figuring out what you DON’T know, and these failures can provide some much needed insight into that.
      I was also blindsided when I failed mine – my supervisors thought I was in a great place but other committee members had different expectations. Its all about learning!
      I just told people straight up that I failed, had some things to improve on and was excited to get to it!

  56. Kavanagh*

    I’m not sure if anyone can actually help me on this, but I’m throwing this out there anyway. I work part-time. A few months ago I was asked to take on an additional role. I’m keeping my first, so between the two positions I’m working full-time for a few months, which is enough to make me eligible for health insurance and other benefits, but the health insurance is the important thing. I was excited because this new position let me use the skills I’ve learned in a hobby of mine. It was an interesting challenge and I could see this as a stepping stone into moving into that field professionally.

    But, I hate this new position. I actually love what I’m doing, but this is dealing with a side of our very large company that I’ve never had to deal with before. It turns out there are several aspects to this that I’m not good at and don’t like. For instance, I have to get permissions every step of the way on everything I do, and every step is a different person I have to get permission from, and there isn’t any one stable list of who the person is I’m supposed to get permission from for what. I am spending a ridiculous amount of time just trying to get people to give me permission to go on to the next step. I have a constant flood of information thrown at me, that isn’t given to me in any organized fashion. I’m constantly juggling balls and losing track of what needs to be done next. I hate all of this. I just want to my thing, turn it in, and then go on to the next thing. This job is never going to be that way.

    I’ve had a personal crisis come up in my life, and I’m so tempted to use it as an excuse to just quit the second position. Except then I burn bridges and will probably never get the opportunity to do this again because of that, and there are disadvantages to that such as losing the benefits. Not to mention said personal crisis is proving to be very expensive, and I need the extra money in my paycheck right now. It’s a short-term position, only lasting another 4 months, but, I’m dreading everyday at work.

    I guess that’s my answer though. It’s only another 4 months, and sometimes you have a job that just is horrible and you deal with it. I just feel like I’m such a failure.

    1. MagnaCarta*

      Where’s your manager on this? Having to get permission separately for every step of a project is unusual and sounds extremely inefficient — probably not something your company wants. Have you named the problem to them and asked for help? Maybe you could develop a plan together where you get feedback from multiple people at once in bigger stages, or where you gather all the input ahead and then do all the work. Or maybe some of the people don’t really need to be consulted after all. Hard to know without knowing the details, but if you haven’t tried getting the workflow changed I’d do that first!

    2. EHSManager*

      Is this a new position for the organization? It sounds very inefficient, like maybe they know what tasks they want you to do but didn’t think through the best way to get them completed. If you can think of a better process, then you may want to go to your supervisor and explain the inefficiencies of having to get each step approved without a set process for knowing who gives the approval, and your idea for improving that process.
      Because you love the actual work you’re doing, and the extra money and benefits are good, I don’t think quitting is the right answer.
      And I don’t understand what you’re feeling like a failure. You weren’t given the tools you need to get the job done and you may be able to improve the process and make yourself the hero of the story!

    3. Kavanagh*

      Thanks for the suggestions! I know they’ve been doing it this way for awhile, but I’ll talk with my manager and see if there isn’t an easier way. My part of this is new, yes.

  57. Myrin*

    I’ll be part of an interview panel in two weeks and I’m having trouble coming up with specific wording for some things. I know what I want to say/ask, but I can’t seem to find the right phrasing in my head:

    1. The type of job is academia-adjacent in the sense that people will, by its nature, always do research on certain topics and, at best, even publish something from time to time, but the person in this particular role will need to wear many hats. They will sometimes have to, to take two examples which really happened, get on a ladder and string up lights themselves or sit down and cut out hearts and stars and glue them on boards. While the person who had that role beforehand didn’t originally mind doing all that he much preferred the more academic, scholarly side of things and eventually grew very resentful of all the rest.

    The people who will be getting interviews probably expect this to some degree – it comes with the role at least at the size our institution is in – but I really, really want to make it clear that this is an absolute must and it’s best if they’re someone who doesn’t just tolerate activities like that but actively enjoys them.

    What’s the best way for me to phrase this, and also, should I just state this as a fact about the job for the candidates to be aware of or should I combine it with a question regarding in how far they’ve worked like this before or similar?

    2. One person – coincidentally (or not!) also the one who, in my view, has the weakest application – was in her second-to-last role for only seven months and has been in her current role for one-and-a-half years, which immediately struck out to me (we are not in the US and not in a fast-paced industry; the “normal” time for people to stay in one job is much, much longer than the two years I see people talk about on AAM a lot). She has also quit that current job already, too (I missed that at first glance but realised it yesterday when doing a deep-dive into the cover letters).

    I fully realise that both of these instances could be really unfortunate coincidences and not predictors for how long she would stay with us but it’s definitely given me pause and I know that I need to address. But I’m not coming up with wording that doesn’t either feel confrontational or too prying. What do you guys recommend?

    1. CherryBlossom*

      For the first one, you may want to emphasize that this job will always have an admin element to it, as cutting up paper and decorating were things I did a lot of as an administrative assistant. Ask them about “wearing many hats” and being able to pitch in at any task.

      For the second point: “Looking over your resume, I see that your last few positions were on the short side. Could you tell me more about that?” Say it lightly and conversationally, and be open to any number of reasonable possibilities.

      1. M2*

        I like the language for the second part but I would most likely not hire this person. Unless there is some real reason having 7 months and 1.5 years back to back is not a good sign. It is a giant red flag unless the roles were grant funded or a short term thing that actually makes sense.

        If they don’t give references for those posts I would do back references and contact their manager anyway (this is normally done at high level roles – I once had to give 8 references and then they did 2 random ones I think) if your institution allows it or ask them for manager references from those at least the 7 month position.

        We all had bad fits we had to leave but having 2 back to back is a red flag imho.

        1. Myrin*

          I honestly wouldn’t even have invited her in the first place, mostly because my reaction to those two short stints was exactly like yours but also because her application was definitely the weakest of the bunch in general.

          Unfortunately, the initial screening was done by HR and my boss, neither of whom are versed in this field, by their own words didn’t understand a lot of what was said in the applications, and who mostly looked at whether someone had already had the role we are hiring for in the past and this person’s 7-month-stint was basically exactly that role. I spoke to HR and she shared my concern but apparently that was the main qualifier my boss looked for, length be damned, apparently.

          I’m not too concerned because basically every other candidate is miles ahead of her, so she would have to both REALLY wow us at the interview and have an excellent explanation for the short stays, which I doubt will happen, but I AM annoyed that they passed up another candidate for her (although HR assured me that should one of the rejected candidates really catch my eye, they would invite that person as well).

      2. GythaOgden*

        Hah yeah. I had the unenviable task of making up about a hundred car parking passes early on in my reception job. There were a lot of comments about the Blue Peter children’s programme where the presenters would regularly get out the sticky-backed plastic to make a cool diorama or something like that.

        I would have killed for something like that just before I left that job last November because it was just so boring.

    2. Pinta Bean*

      I work in Student Life and we indeed have jobs that include both coordinating research on student engagement, and hanging up decorations. I think you can describe it as “hands-on preparation and presentation of departmental programs, including catering and room set-up” (or whatever the hearts and stars are for). You could incorporate that into a description of “a typical day” and start the interview with that. If this position has direct reports, you might need to be explicit that the person is not only delegating the hearts and stars to others, but will actually be cutting them out. If there are no direct reports, it’s probably more clear that the hearts and stars are a one person operation.

      1. Myrin*

        Thank you for mentioning the direct reports, I meant to add about that and then promptly forgot! The position will have direct reports, but they’re very part-time so while they’ll definitely help with whatever hearts-and-stars situation will happen, the boss will definitely need to have a hand in it themselves.

    3. 3DayWeekend*

      For point 1: I am in a similar job, and in the interview they told me very explicitly that while the role had research elements it was not a traditional research job and would involve support tasks (and spelled out the tasks). They asked me if I was fine with that, which I was. Being explicit in the interview was actually very helpful for understanding expectations.

    4. Kathenus*

      For question 2, this is the phrasing I use:
      1. Briefly describe your career path and (specific field/position) experience to date, including your decision-making process regarding taking/leaving positions.

    5. One of the many librarians*

      When I interviewed for my current job, I was asked what tasks I thought were inappropriate for the role. I had a good answer, but it definitely was an indication that “other duties as needed” wasn’t just boilerplate.

  58. Desperately unemployed*

    Venting ahead.

    It’s been 3 weeks post not-great interview (more of a grilling), haven’t heard back which I’m not that sad about because the benefits were crap and I wasn’t sold on the family-run vibes, but I am. So. Tired. I got yet another rejection for a job that would’ve been a great fit, without an interview, and I can’t stop thinking about that last interviewer telling me I basically have no experience so why would I ever get the job level I want with the resume I have (even if I have the skills/aptitude). It’s so demoralizing. I keep wishing for an epiphany so I can throw in the towel and pivot to something else but I’m back in the depression hole so optimism is gone and things I usually enjoy/think I’m good at are nonexistent.

    Gonna apply to one last job above admin assistant and then just say f*ck it and apply for those I guess.

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      For the not-great interview at least, try changing your mindset. Reject them. I know that it can be really difficult to find something. But take the power back for this one at least and tell them (in your mind) that you’re not going to proceed with the hiring.

  59. Lisa*

    Wondering if folks can help settle something for a few coworkers and me. A higher-up at our company recently passed away, and now a few of our coworkers are collecting money for his family and pressuring everyone to donate. We are wondering if we ethically need to or if it will look really unprofessional if we don’t. Of course it is really tragic that this higher-up passed away and we feel terrible for his family. But we are also very junior and make way less than he did, and we also already gave money at the funeral.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      This feels like something that should be paid for by the company and/or the people at/above his level.

      Just don’t donate and say you’ve already taken care of it personally.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      A collection to send flowers, or to send to a charity designated in the obituary, fine. But I don’t think it’s appropriate to collect from more junior employees to give to his family.

    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I’d say a collection is okay, but any pressure is not. Find a group of coworkers to politely but firmly decline. Alison has great suggestions in a “how to handle pressure to donate money at work” post that I’ll link below, but this is some of her suggested language:

      Unfortunately, my budget won’t allow me to contribute right now.
      I’m so sorry to hear of Higher Up’s passing, but I can’t.
      I’ve already donate to Charity in honor of Higher Up, but thank you.
      No, thank you.

      1. Lisa*

        Thanks yeah I guess I should clarify that they’re not actually coming up to our desks and asking us to donate personally, it’s more like they’re frequently sending messages to the company-wide Slack like “Just remember you have until X day to donate to Fergus’s family” “Friendly reminder to donate to Fergus’s family here by X day” and presumably they can see who donates and who doesn’t

    5. WellRed*

      Giving money at funerals must be regional thing? It’s certainly not expected for a higher up. The company should have sent flowers. Period.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Yeah, a lot of funerals in the UK ask people to make donations at the funeral in lieu of sending flowers. At my husband’s funeral we raised £700 for the hospice in which he died and a further £500 at a cricket benefit match last year. It’s not considered obligatory, but it’s very much a ‘what they would have wanted’ thing. (Although my cousin did send me flowers in an enamel jug, which was nice of her and allowed me to fill some time on bereavement leave using decoupage to decorate it. I just won a first prize in an art competition with it last week. So sometimes a personal gift is appropriate and appreciated — just not cash sent directly to the family.)

          I will make donations myself but it’s a very personal thing and no-one will press you into doing it. That said, it is a cultural thing here in the UK moreso than in the US — we are one of the best countries at donating to charity (it’s seen as a kind of ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ thing, and having had my life changed by my husband’s death I’m first in line with the donation app when it’s a cancer, hospice or other medical support charity) and it’s always been a fixture of my workplaces to have various collections throughout the year.

          If someone is forcing donations, they’re doing it wrong, though.

  60. Agathe Bauer*

    How do contractors convert to full time employees? I just keep getting extended. Is there a way to express my interest in conversion? I was always told not to discuss it with the client company.

    1. WellRed*

      Told by whom? What kind of relationship do you have with the manager? You should absolutely be able to express interest and enthusiasm for a permanent position.

    2. GoingPerm*

      In general we don’t. If we do it’s entirely because the company wants to stop paying agency fees.

      It’s typically written into the contract that you can’t discuss this with the company, nor can you tell them how much the agency is paying you (this makes negotiating a salary fun when conversion does happen). If you discuss it (and the agency finds out )you can lose the contract, get sued, or both. Basically, it’s considered interfering with the business relationship between the company and the agency.

      If you don’t want to keep going on contract you can ask the agency about converting, but it’s usyally not in their best interest so it usually has to be pushed by the company. If you’re willing to leave if you don’t go permanent then I’d definitely bring it up with the agency, but you need to be willing to follow through.

      Good luck!

      1. WellRed*

        I stand corrected but I often can’t tell the difference on this site between temping and contracting!

  61. Twisted Nachos*

    Any advice of programs that help you create SOPs? I saw an ad a while ago on social media for a program but I cant remember then name. Not sure if anyone has an experience using one and if its worth it. I have a few I need to make for work/training purposes. Thanks!

    2. MagnaCarta*

      I’m so curious what you have in mind! I create and document processes for my role and can’t think of how software would *do the process* for me. There are of course diagramming tools (I like LucidChart) and workshop leading tools (I like Miro for virtual). But not things that like… develop the process for me. But maybe there’s something out there!

    3. Bitte Meddler*

      ChatGPT? I’ve used it to gain an understanding of certain business processes (“Write a report on the factors that go into being ‘reasonably certain’ about extending a lease”, “What are the financial and operational risks in a retail business?”).

    4. Desperately unemployed*

      Not sure this is what you have in mind, but when I created a guide I used loom to record how I did the processes. I think I know the one you’re talking about but also drawing a blank, but if memory serves it’s similar but not just screen recording!

  62. Newbie negotiator*

    I am applying for jobs right now and need to figure out the best way to answer the dreaded “what is your desired salary” question. I luckily do have access to an industry salary survey, so I know roughly what I should be looking for, but I am doing a nationwide search and don’t really know how to adjust for low vs high cost of living areas. I don’t want to lowball myself. The average for the bracket that includes my experience level is about $140,000. How bad would it be to cite that number as my salary expectation if it’s in a LCOL area that I suspect may pay $120,000 if I would consider the job at a lower salary? I’m really not used to salary negotiation as all of my previous positions were non-negotiable. I am in the medical field so previous positions were considered “training” positions.

  63. Hawk is Not a Phone Fan*

    Work etiquette/norms question:
    I need to call the vet because one of my animals appears to have an injury or infection in a limb. This is a specialty vet that has limited days/hours because the pet is an “exotic” (rodent). I work in a public space and I’m in a spot where it’s ok to call now, but after that I won’t be free for another two hours, and by then they may not be open and I’ll have to go to an emergency vet in another state.

    I used to work in a confined space with two other people who spent most of the time on personal calls. Now I’m in a cube in a mostly empty room where personal calls still happen but usually on breaks. Is it OK that I make this phone call in here, or should I go out to my car? Or should I wait until after my shift ends? My break is only 15 minutes and too short to cover the whole length of a phone call due to waiting (high demand vet).

    1. Policy Wonk*

      As long as there isn’t a policy against making personal calls from your desk, call. We have all had situations where we need to call the dr./dentist/vet/kid’s school to make an appointment and don’t have a lot of choices. The only exception is if you need to explain something that may be hard to listen to (e.g., graphic symptoms, description of a wound). Then you need a private space.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Make the call and keep it on subject. If it’s a rare occurrence, that’s not going to land the same as spending most of your time on personal calls, day in and day out.

      Human beings will understand your concentration and productivity will be better once restoring your pet’s well being is in motion.

  64. Garden Pidgeons*

    Work lunches! In a month I’m moving from my fully-remote role to one where I’m in the office 3 days a week, and want to figure out some packed lunches that will be nice/filling/stop me snacking on chocolate bars, keep well on an hour-long-ish train commute (i.e. resistant to being squashed and being out of the fridge), and be vegetarian. Anyone got good lunch ideas to share?

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Get a good lunch box, and pack your lunch in a Bento box or something similar that will protect it from squashing. Use lunch box ice packs to keep it cold on the commute. Then pack whatever you want. I tend to bring leftovers or salads, along with a piece of fruit, maybe a pack of nuts for an afternoon snack.

    3. gigi*

      I’m on a year long streak of spinach salads. I hate packing lunches, so this is what I’ve settled on to make it easy.
      Sunday night: I chop bell peppers or similar, and slice 16oz block of tofu into 5 slices. stick in airfryer for 10 minutes with whatever spices. I don’t get very fancy, but sometimes I marinate the tofu.
      Daily: I buy the organic prewashed spinach. Grab some from the tub, drizzle with olive oil or balsamic, add piece of tofu and veggies.

      This is the only way I’ve found I consistently can stick to! In the winter, I sometimes swap it out for leftover soup.

      On my very busiest weeks (1-2 times a year), I’ll make a big pan or two of spanakopita because it freezes well and it’s so easy to just cut off a chunk for lunch or a side for dinner.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Spanakopita sounds really nice. And I bet the iron in all that spinach keeps you going nicely.

    4. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

      dense bean salads are my go-to! they can be super versatile and you can choose to include grains or not. some of my favorites are mexican-inspired black bean/salsa/sweet potato/avocado (sometimes plus quinoa); sheet pan chickpea/feta/tomato plus any other veg; cannellini beans with mediterranean ingredients like olives/sundried toms can be served over greens as a nice salad.

      not sure if youre a breakfast person, but if so I would also recommend doing overnight oats or yogurt + granola for a snack around 930 or so. i find this really helps to keep me from snacking on junk AND i dont feel quite so much pressure to get as much protein from my lunch. anything with chia seeds really – they are super filling!

    6. Yes And*

      If you tend to cook dinner at home, I’m a big fan of one-pot meals (like bean chilis, pasta/rice dishes, stews and the like) that improve in flavor as they sit. You just make extra for dinner, and leftovers are lunch the next day. They pack pretty well and are easy to eat with a single utensil.

      As for taming the snacking urge, I’ve found that packing a piece of fruit as lunch “dessert” helps.

    9. Hyaline*

      Do you have a fridge and microwave at work? Just about anything should keep properly cold for an hour or two in an insulated lunch bag with an ice pack, and then it can go in the fridge.

      I do a lot of leftovers/intentional big batches of things like rice and beans, risotto, butter chicken/curry/peanut chicken (could be veggie), enchiladas, what have you, that I can pack in snapware and reheat at work. Or I’ll make a big salad and eat it for a few days. A broccoli slaw with feta cheese, Caesar dressing, and a protein (I use chicken but white beans or seared tofu could be good too) is one of my favorites. Or sweet potatoes made surprisingly filling meals!

    10. HonorBox*

      In addition to the good suggestions, I’d suggest getting a second set of ice packs so you can have backups in case you forget to throw them in the freezer. There are so many sizes, and I’d suggest going with more volume of smaller ones, so you can fit them around anything that you need to ensure stays cooler.

      Regarding not snacking on chocolate bars… get something that you can have with you that has protein and can last you a little longer than a few bites. The small packs of pistachios or other assorted nuts is great because you can extend the snack a bit.

      1. Hyaline*

        Yes–and when it comes to snacks, if you can stash a few things at work (sometimes I know that’s not allowed but if it is), keep a stock of non-chocolate-bar snacks handy, for sure. I used to make trail mixes a lot.

    11. spcepickle*

      I am vegetarian who meal preps 4 lunches on Sunday and hauls them to work every week.
      Invest in good containers – I like the glass ones with a locking lid. This is the most important thing.

      I do the dense bean salads – some form a white bean, chopped up veggies, a carb (pasta, farro, sometimes small potatoes), vinegar based dressings.

      Tofu and roasted veggies with some kind of sauce – This week was peanut sauce over broccoli, onions, and carrots. Tofu marinated in soy sauce, rice vinegar, and chili oil and then baked with the veggies.

      Bean soup all winter – bring a bag of you favorite chips for dipping.

      If I am really short on time, I buy a bagged salad and the premarinated tofu – throw a chunk of that on the salad – lunch in like 90 seconds.

      I also will often do a “snack pack” for the 3pm snack need. Normally cut up veggies, a mini cheese wheel, sometimes a little pack of dip, sometimes a handful of nuts.
      I also pack fruit for my morning snack because I normally want sweet in the morning. I will cut up anything that is not an apple the day before and put it in a container to prevent the smushing.
      I always pack chocolate – Because it makes my day better and when I have my own I don’t go looking for the office stash which keep my honest about how much chocolate I am eating.
      I also often pack the Icelandic yogurt (like Siggis), some people don’t like it – but the ratio of protein to sugar means it is a substantial snack without the crash.

      Honestly I don’t bother with an ice pack or even the fridge at work and everything above has handled being hauled to work and sitting under my desk till I am ready to eat it. If something comes up at 10am and I know I am not going eat what I brought I will throw it in the work fridge for the next day. I have found that because I don’t bother with ice packs things really need to be eaten that day and if I don’t eat it I normally end up tossing it.

    12. GythaOgden*

      Falafel. I’ve been really spoilt by our local supermarket doing sweet potato falafel, but it’s ground chick peas so it’s full of protein. It’s more palatable hot, but honestly it made a really nice sandwich filling and it could well substitute for meatballs in similar sauces.

  65. Anon really*

    For those deploying, testing, otherwise using AI in your offices, have you faced the phenomenon that (much older) leadership is not tech savvy but the novice level folks (non-leadership, younger employees) are AI experts by comparison? If yes, what does introducing AI to everyone look like in practice, and how do you incentivize people to teach others?

    1. Antilles*

      I think it’s fundamentally similar to any other new technology or software change: The most important thing you can do to get people on board is to be able to show the benefits and use cases. Not some generic buzzword like enhancing productivity, not some vague promises of how it’ll be useful at some unspecified point in the future, but specific examples of what it can do for me, how it’s being used right now, and ways it can help our projects/our company.
      Especially if we’re talking about people in leadership roles, because they’ve presumably seen plenty of hot new trends come and go, get all sorts of hype, then float away without really making much impact.

    2. MagnaCarta*

      What’s the goal? Is it that you think AI has value, and want people to find ways to (self-directedly) adopt more? Or do you have an actual tool you’re trying to roll out, that is part of existing workflows?

      Assuming the former – you could put together some demonstrations where novice level folks demonstrate how they’re using AI. You could even ask them to do some research on best practices, like how to write effective prompts, what tools are best for what purpose, etc. and then incorporate that. Many junior folks would LOVE to have “go-to AI expert for my office” on their resume.

    3. WellRed*

      Our company just said they wanted us to use/experiment with AI to “become more efficient.” So, not super helpful, especially for those of us (very few) who’s main job function is reporting and writing stories.

  66. Applesauced*

    I am very pregnant (33 weeks), and planing to work until I give birth (yay, USA)

    Our HR person just scheduled a check in as I’m getting closer to my due date specifically to go over what support I need.

    I’m thinking of asking to WFH the 2 weeks before my due date and to ease back on site work (I’m an engineer, and I’m typically on a construction site 2x a week. I’ve already stopped going on ladders and scaffolding). Anything else that has been useful to people?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Since it sounds like your time off might coincide with the end of year holidays, ask how any holiday time off will count for your leave. Some places still give those holidays off, allowing you to extend your leave, but many don’t allow you to count them if you’re on FMLA or maternity/extended PTO. I’ve known too many people that budgeted for those holidays in their time off with baby only to be met with a nasty surprise when company policy didn’t allow it.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        Yes, get all the info you can! There are things at my workplace that we have to be “in pay status” (i.e. receiving pay from the employer) for, like health insurance, holidays, and accruals of PTO. Taking intermittent FMLA—days not paid by my employer—and staggering that with PTO days kept me in pay status such that I got a couple one-time lump payments on the expected schedule rather than having to argue with payroll staff for them later, and accrued a few more days’ worth of PTO to be able to extend my total leave a bit. It was annoying because I still had to log in and complete timesheets, but so worth it overall. Similarly, I timed my return so that I would be in pay status at the right time to get PTO accrued at the first possible opportunity.

        You can file FMLA paperwork ahead of time, so ask about everything that can be done ahead of time, and what has to be done after the fact and get forms/timelines for that (like adding the baby to your insurance). Ask whether your remote access will be revoked at any point, and make sure you have everything you need on hand if it will get cut off—and make sure people know to email you at your personal email with things like FMLA forms and return logistics. And if there’s even a tiny chance you’ll pump after returning, ask about schedule and space logistics.

  67. newish grad*

    Any advice for adjusting to the pressure of having more responsibility at work?

    I went to a giant state school where nobody cared what you were up to or what you did, and my research gigs were pretty self driven (though I was officially an intern on payroll and there were expectations to produce some results). Now I’ve been graduated and working for a year. The good news is I’ve been a top performer, but now anxiety is creeping in. One of our projects has been so successful we’ve gotten media requests, and my boss wants me out there as the face of the project. My work load hasn’t really gone up, but the comments along the lines of “you’re a leader!” “we’re counting on you!” are starting to freak me out!!

  68. Jen*

    If your manager was communicating with you in a way that bothered you, for example, sending messages while you were away from your desk, but during work hours, would you speak up or quit?

    1. Yes And*

      Is there some context I’m not understanding? Sending people messages over work platforms during work hours is entirely normal. If I know my employee is away from their desk when I send a message, I understand they’ll get to it when they’re settled back in at their desk. It’s all very not-a-big-deal. Unless I’m missing something?

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Right.
        I mean if my manager was 30 feet away, watched me get up from my desk, immediately sent me a message, and then complained loudly that I was unreachable when they saw me 5 minutes later, that’s just my boss being a jerk, not an issue of communication styles.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          I’m wondering if it’s a scenario like, say, I happen to be current with my tasks and dragging, so I happen to go make a cup of coffee. I could just finish the pot and kick another brew off, but since I’m current and have the time, I clean the pot out, wipe down the countertop, have a friendly conversation with a peer, and pour a fresh cup of coffee from the new brew. Nothing excessive, but extra time and care I might not take if I had an urgent task waiting upon my return.

          Only to return and find the boss sent me a silent IM/email 2 minutes after I left for coffee and now half of my 30 minute window to complete the task is gone.

          There are solutions to such a situation, but if the company doesn’t want to spring for mobile hardware (i.e. cell phone) and needs spyware to trust my hardware, there might be a communication impasse here.

        2. Myrin*

          That’s basically the only scenario where the original question would make sense to me, otherwise I’m lost, honestly.

    2. MagnaCarta*

      I agree with the other commenter that this sounds normal.

      If there’s some context that changes that, you could say: “Hey! I was wondering if there’s a reason you prefer to do XYZ? In past roles my manager has done ABC and I’ve found that it works better, would that be an option here?” (Or instead of “in past roles” you could say “For my workflow, it would work better if you did ABC” or similar, whatever is true)

    3. Cyndi*

      I think as long as you have a decent relationship with your manager, where it’s generally okay to raise issues, it’s worth going “hey, maybe we would communicate more effectively if–” but my current workplace is very small, so maybe I’ve gotten used to having more leeway for that kind of thing and your workplace’s communication procedures are more set in stone.

      I don’t really understand your specific issue here, though–it sounds like the normal and intended way to use Slack/Teams/whatever other messaging client you’re on?

    4. Firm Believer*

      This is strange. Just because you are away from your desk doesn’t mean your colleagues shouldn’t contact you. They are still working.

      1. Antilles*

        Especially since sending someone a Teams message of basically “hey, let me know when you’re back and free” is so incredibly common that *even if* you did quit because you were annoyed by this sort of IM, you’re likely to encounter it again at your next role.

    6. Cordelia*

      Do you know what it is about this that bothers you? I’m wondering if your annoyance at this is really about some wider issues with your manager, as I don’t understand the problem with sending you messages while you are not at your desk. That would be an extraordinary thing to quit over, and would be very hard to explain when applying for other jobs, so I think you might need to work out exactly what it is that is making you unhappy in this job before you can decide (or ask for advice) whether to address it or quit.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Can you please clarify why sending a message during work hours is a problem that bothers you? Because, uh, I’m not thinking of any way for that to be reasonable.

    8. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Sending messages over a work platform is asynchronous communication and half the point is that you can send it when someone is away from their desk.

      I think I’d work on figuring out why this annoys you to the point of considering quitting, because this is incredibly normal and common, and you’re likely to experience similar in any workplace that uses these kinds of tools.

    9. Fuschia Frenzy*

      Why does that bother you? This seems like an extreme over-reaction, honestly.

      There’s really nothing to “speak up” about here. Your boss gets to communicate with you in whatever way makes the most sense for them and the work. What’s the real issue here?

      Quitting seems bizarre and unreasonable unless there is WAY more to this that you described.

    10. AvonLady Barksdale*

      If that’s the example with no context, then I would say absolutely nothing and think long and hard about why asynchronous communication bothers me. So we need more here. My manager sends Slack messages to me all the time and if I don’t get back to her right away, that’s ok. Now, if she sent that annoying “??” two minutes after her initial message, I’d probably discuss it with her, because that’s just obnoxious.

  69. MagnaCarta*

    Looking for help on an employee coaching situation. The TLDR is: How can I know if I’m at the point where feedback has to move from “you will not advance here until you address this” to “I can’t keep you in your job if you don’t address this”?

    I have a teapot painter who’s been here about 18 months. They came in fairly inexperienced, but with a positive attitude and open to feedback.

    Over the past 6 months, I (their manager) and a senior member of my team have repeatedly given detailed feedback on specific areas that require improvement. I have been clear in my feedback that these are core skills, and their performance is below the skill level I expect to see for their title level.

    Let’s say they’re selecting clashing colors and leaving visible brushstrokes in their work. So far I have: provided a written reference guide on color selection and brushwork; given direct feedback on specific work items, by pointing out the color and brushwork issues (multiple work items over several months); provided live feedback/workshop sessions with seniors on the team. Their skill has improved… but it just seems like they’re not internalizing the skills, and not able to identify the problems in their own work until they’re pointed out. Issues and errors are still frequent especially on certain types of projects.

    How do you make the decision that the feedback needs to move from “you will not advance here until you address this” to “I can’t keep you in your job if you don’t address this”? Is there something else I should try that might make this click? I’ve never been in this scenario before.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Honestly, it sounds like you’re already at that point. This employee is just not getting it.

      But the way to do this is to put deadlines on things. “I need you to be able to thing x by date y”. That gives both them and you a pretty clear path to follow. So maybe at this point you need to figure out how much more time you’re willing to give them (a month? three months?) and address it that way.

      1. MagnaCarta*

        Ugh, you’re probably right. I’m struggling because there has been *some* improvement each time, so I keep expecting to hit a breakthrough or tipping point where the work is good enough. But it’s gone long enough like this that perhaps it’s indication no breakthrough is coming.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          That’s something you can work with – “We’ve talked about this a half dozen times and each time you make some improvement, but that’s not cutting the mustard anymore – I need you to be fully succeeding at X, Y and Z by (four weeks from today or whatever makes sense) or I will have to conclude that you are not able to successfully meet the requirements of this position and we will not be able to keep you with this team.”

        2. Kathenus*

          In addition to Red Reader’s advice, name the problem of the pattern of behavior, and not internalizing the feedback going forward. Make it clear that success means improving in these areas on their own, without oversight or needing to do revisions after someone else reviews them.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This sounds like you need to do the “pattern” talk that Alison recommends.

      Your employee is taking each of these as one-off corrections. You need to impress on them that this is a systemic issue.

    3. Hyaline*

      Has the issue been framed up to now as “you will not advance”? If so, I think you do need to do some damage control/backtracking in terms of clarifying, “I may have given you the impression that these skills are only required to level up, but they are in fact required to do this job.” I can see someone not hearing the gravity of the “you will not advance” statement and only understanding “Well ok, but I’m fine keeping this job lalalala.”

      Has the person been given training/coaching/methods/whatever in catching and correcting their own errors? Have they been shown how to build this into their process? If not, and especially if catching mistakes in this area comes naturally to you, consider (or ask them to consider) how to develop this skill–because “self editing” is a skill. And again, if it hasn’t been clear that it’s necessary to have this skill, clarify it now: “The way we’ve dealt with the errors we’ve found may make it seem like this kind of oversight is normal, but we actually need you to be proofing your own work and making corrections without being guided.”

      And with those two clarifications in place, yeah, I think you can move forward into PIP territory. Define the skills and improvements you need to see and a timeframe that seems fair. If you give a chance to improve with the stakes clearly laid out, and the skills just don’t develop, you’ll probably have a clear answer.

      1. MagnaCarta*

        The feedback has been “You’ve asked about a path to advancement, but in these core areas you are not meeting the requirements for this position. There can’t be a conversation about advancement until these reach the level I need.” (The person had been VERY gung ho about advancement, and there was some awkward timing with a LOA/interim manager, which is why it came up in that context first.) So, somewhere between the two conversations you’re describing, but the language used has included “this is not meeting the expectation for your title level, and it is core to your position.”

        I’ve given specific suggestions about catching and correcting their own errors (pre-flight checklist; building in time for ‘fresh eyes’ between draft and revision). Unfortunately self-editing is in some sense inherent to the job. I’ll say the distinction here is not at a finesse level — I’ve asked a few people for a gut check and it’s visible to folks who are not experts in this field.

        I’m not sure how to teach the ability to spot the problems other than to keep pointing them out (which I have done ad nauseam, including specific before/after of their product vs. what I would want to see, on many specific examples). I would honestly really welcome any other suggestions here, because I am genuinely out of ideas, and don’t know how to tell at this point whether this is something this person could learn (ever, or at least at a reasonable time/effort/training expense to me and my company).

        1. Kay*

          I think you really need to have the hard conversation. It sounds like you kinda sorta had it, but softened it too much. It sounds like they have improved after every discussion, so that is slightly promising.

          I would lay out what you need to see, when you need to see it by, what the consequences are for not meeting the requirements for the job (if you need to fire them then they need to know this, vs say transfer them) – then ask them if they think they can meet these requirements and if they have a reasonable solution to get them from their current level to the level where you need them to be (and get into specifics! we can see brushstrokes often in your work, which we can’t have-after we catch it and you have a training session you fix it but if we don’t supervise your work and there are no more training sessions to be offered, how do you think you can resolve this within the next month? Think it over and lets talk again in a week, etc.)

          Sometimes things don’t work out, and this may be one of those cases. Maybe this is a case where there is an extra check put in place for them which works for everyone, but until this tough conversation happens and they realize their job is at stake you won’t know.

          1. MagnaCarta*

            Yep that was my question… are we at that point or am I missing something. I’m convinced you’re right and we’re at that point.

        2. Samesies!*

          I’m not quite at this stage but I have a staff member who is early career and a year in and I have seen enough improvement to know they can get better, but that they will never be a superstar. Stuff that should be internalized by now isn’t and I find I have to explicitly make suggestions about ways to steadily improve while at work multiple times before they start actually doing the things.

          I feel like the person is just … not that smart? Feels like an odd thing to say but I keep getting stuck on the thought. I feel like I can’t fire them because they are doing the work and improving, it is just happening extremely slowly and I suspect their best possible performance still lags the rest of the team members.

          All of this is not to derail but to say: MagnaCarta, I think you need to let your person go. And that’s maybe solidifying for my own situation that my own report is perhaps not up to the job either. I wonder if reading about my situation will help with yours? Because I do understand why you feel stuck.

  70. Synaptically Unique*

    A friend just got promoted at work. It’s a new-to-the-company position, and one that is intended to be a transition role that will move him into an adjacent workflow. Since the position was clearly articulated as being a temporary role for him with the purpose of gaining different experience, he said he was willing to take it even if it didn’t result in a raise (mostly so they wouldn’t kick it down the road over budgetary concerns). They took him at his word and made it strictly a lateral move. He’s been in the role for a couple of months and is doing very well. The glitch is that budget discussions are starting soon and he’s unsure whether it’s too early to start asking about next steps.

    I would normally suggest waiting a little longer, but since this job with an expanded scope of work wasn’t attached to a raise, I think it’s reasonable to start asking now and be sure it’s written into the budget. But I would love some opinions for or against.

    1. Goddess47*

      I’m on the ‘it never hurts to ask’ side of the equation… paired with “I have taken over X work with no increase in pay, at this point I feel I should be compensated fairly for that”

      Good luck!

    2. Kay*

      How long is the temporary role supposed to last before he is transitioned into the final role and how much political capital will this discussion burn up? If it was designed to be short term I think capital may be better used to get into the new role sooner, if that might be an issue. Either way I think one way to go about it is to say something like “Since there weren’t budget discussions when this role was created is it possible to revisit that now ?” then make the case for why.

      I’m a big fan of being paid for the work being done, but your friends knows their office best.

  71. AG*

    Why is being competent, hardworking, and professional (even if not especially warm) not enough to be respected/liked at work?

    2. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

      wish i knew. i am 35 years old and am just now understanding how little the quality of my output actually matters as long as I can Be A People Person (TM)

      1. Not a Butterfly*

        We hired an intern at my old company after I’d been there six months. I had been hired into a Senior role.

        Three years later, she was at the same level I was, and looking to be promoted one level above me within the next year.

        Her work quality was poor; she didn’t understand the underlying concepts of why she was doing what she was doing, which meant she was constantly asking others for help / guidance.

        BUT…

        She signed up to volunteer on ALL the committees. And to star in instructional videos made by other departments. And she became the unofficial Social Director not just of our department, but of the whole overarching area we were under by scheduling Happy Hours, team lunches, and “team building” activities like pot lucks and cutesy games (“Everybody bring a picture of themselves as a baby and I’ll put them on a poster board and have everyone guess who is who.”). She went to all the other departments’ lunches and outings, brought home-baked goods in on the regular, and participated in every single company-sponsored social activity and volunteer event. [She’s single and has no kids.]

        She is a nice person and enjoyable to talk to, but no one ever wanted her on their projects because she needed a lot of hand-holding.

        So, at my old company at least, no skill or competency was required for promotions. You just needed to be a cheerleading social butterfly.

    3. MagnaCarta*

      Well, people don’t tend to like people who are cold to them. That is pretty much human nature. It is often enough to be respected, though! Probably environment and role dependent.

        1. Filosofickle*

          While they aren’t necessarily equivalent, in my experience people who believe they are not-especially-warm-but-not-cold are often perceived as cold by others.

          1. GythaOgden*

            Agreed. There’s a certain amount of reading between the lines here and it may be that OP is more aloof than she thinks she is.

    5. Cordelia*

      I think being respected and being liked are two separate things. Being competent, hardworking and professional is usually enough to be respected, in my experience, but people like other people who are warm and friendly.

    6. Irish Teacher.*

      I think there can be many reasons, some valid, others really not.

      One is that people generally like people who are nice to them and who are entertaining to be around. If somebody is actively cold, they obviously won’t be liked (I know there is a large middle ground between being actively cold and being really warm, so a certain amount depends on where the person falls on it).

      People have different expectations of work relationships. Some people hope for friendship from colleagues, some are very invested in having “a close team” whereas others would rather keep things professional and keep their social life and work life separate.

      Some people are very insecure (for various reasons from Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria to anxiety disorders to previous experiences) and may misinterpret somebody being professional but not warm as somebody showing disapproval of them.

      Some people feel threatened by competent, hardworking and professional people, especially if they are not particularly hardworking themself, feeling they will “show us up.” Beer run boss’s letter gave a good example of this where the competent hardworking professional person was disliked both because her coworkers felt she was outshining them and because she “didn’t fit in to their culture” (actually, I suspect this was partly just a rephrasing of the first).

    7. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There’s a broad spectrum in “not especially warm”.

      If you give the impression that you’re doing everybody a favor just by getting your job done, people aren’t going to respect you. Ditto being haughty and other kinds of thinly-veiled disdain for your coworkers.

      I have no idea if this applies to you, but couldn’t hurt to think about it.

    8. WorkerDrone*

      It’s plenty to be respected (or, should be). Respect is demonstrated by being competent, hardworking, and professional in return. If a competent, hardworking person is not being respected by their colleagues, that’s a colleagues problem.

      Liking someone is a lot more about personal connection than respecting someone is. I don’t build personal connections with people who aren’t warm, or who I don’t share similar interests with, and that’s fine because I still respect those people, even if I don’t like them.

    9. Quicket*

      It usually is, in my experience. So if you are not liked, there’s probably another reason.

    11. The red orchid*

      I think most of ‘Merica (I assume that’s where you’re from) highly values the extrovert. Although extroverts are great, introverts have untapped skills they never get to use, and are seen as cold and unreachable, even if they are really nice people.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Not just in the US; it’s similar in many countries I’ve been to and actually rubbed off on me a lot.

        However, introvert doesn’t mean that you are not friendly or sociable at work. It only means you need alone time to recharge. There’s no reason an introvert can’t be friendly and even outgoing at work so long as they can relax and recharge without interruption. Additionally, not being friendly at work can be very off-putting if it tips over into aloof, and often we’re the last to realise that we’re pushing people away by our demeanour.

        1. allathian*

          Yes, this. I’m chatty, warm, and friendly at work to the point that some people don’t believe me when I say I’m an introvert. My introversion manifests in my need for a lot of alone time. I also do better in small groups and dislike crowds.

          I also opt out of most after work social events, which I’m not penalized for at my job.

          I have a writing job that doesn’t require a lot of synchronous collaboration. In my private life I’m perfectly happy if I see my best friend about once a month. Granted, I live in the same city as my parents, sister, and MIL, and I see them about every two weeks.

      1. A Person*

        I think this is a really key one. You don’t have to be gregarious, but people really value if you are “pleasant” to work with. This is a skill I actively worked to improve as I moved into more managerial / cross functional roles. I’m not an extrovert and you don’t have to be, but wishing people a good weekend or remembering big things they’ve mentioned can go a long way.

    13. CandleInTheLibrary*

      In my experience, incompetent people hire, promote and value other incompetent people. They don’t feel safe around skilled workers, and if they have any talented people around they use them for their own career gain. The workplace (or sector within the workplace) becomes primarily a means to fulfill the needs of employees’ egos. And of course not every organization or team is like this, but too many are.

      I didn’t realize this for a long time and was very confused when people at work would say they value professionalism, organizational success, and expertise, but their behaviour said exactly the opposite.

    14. Unkempt Flatware*

      Some people are hard to like and some people find it hard to like people. This occurs in all social structures and in all social species.

  72. Space Cadet*

    At my job, we use a deli-like queue for walk-in customers: grab a number from reception, the receptionist notifies staff in a group Teams chat of the waiting customer, and the next available staff member goes to the waiting room, retrieves the customer, and takes them to their office. We all take turns working the reception desk.
    One coworker, Jane, is very inconsistent in putting notifications in the chat when she works reception. She relies on staff members who are ‘hanging out’ in reception to handle incoming customers. But, we’re not supposed to be hanging out in the reception area, and we have other work we’re supposed to do at our desks when we don’t have a customer.
    We’ve had issues with other coworkers in the past, and our management usually tells us to manage issues ourselves.
    This is causing issues for those of us who stay at our desks, because we end up taking fewer customers. What do I say to Jane to encourage her to… do her job?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Are you making commission / have targets to hit re: number of customers served? Or is it just annoying that she keeps forgetting to let everyone know, independent of any targets?

      I do wonder if there’s a better way of handling it than having people take a physical number and have someone message you, e.g. can they sign in on an iPad that then sends a notification to a Teams channel that Fergus Abernathy has signed in? Or whatever, just something that automates it a bit and takes the receptionist out of the notification cycle.

  73. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

    Yet another tale from the dysfunctional flea market.

    The Big Score

    The flea market owner had a habit of acquiring items from strange places. It seemed like any place going out of business, having an estate sale, or just putting stuff on the curb was like catnip to him. We’d show up to work and find he’d left boxes of random junk in the middle of the parking lot. It was almost never good stuff anyone actually wanted, which is why the entire east wall was nothing but shelving and bins filled with cheap “grab bags” we cobbled together.

    One day, we showed up to work and discovered the owner had brought in an entire truckload of stuff. Surprisingly, it was all carefully stacked in the loading dock instead of just piled in front of the register or tossed haphazardly into the back room. When we investigated, we found it was all brand new electronics and audiovisual equipment. It wasn’t even weird knockoffs, it was brand name stuff.

    So as per the owner’s detailed instructions on the answering machine, we unloaded everything, priced it, and added it to our inventory catalog (on an ancient monochrome DOS terminal that was also the register). The prices he wanted on the stuff were surprisingly low. Even weirder, the owner said we could each pick out two items we wanted and take them home as a “bonus” and if we had any friends, we could use our (usually worthless) 10% employee discount on their purchase. I took home a DVD player and a shelf stereo system, manager got a TV and boombox, the other clerk got a surround sound system and a high end (for the time) modem.

    Since we didn’t get many customers, the stuff moved slowly. The owner extended the freebies to all vendors and discounts to all customers. Still, the stuff didn’t move and the owner was getting really agitated. When I suggested we do some actual advertising like a normal business, I thought he was going to have a panic attack. No advertising! Word of mouth to trusted friends and customers only!

    I mean, in retrospect, I should have seen where this was going.

    A couple weeks later, we showed up for work to find the place surrounded by the sheriff’s department. The electronics were being loaded onto a new truck with big red and black evidence labels plastered on them. The owner was there yelling at the sheriff and kept pointing to us. The three of us are separated and interviewed for a few hours, then everyone leaves and the owner tells us to get back to work. So we do. He then left and we didn’t see or hear from him for a few weeks.

    Now, I don’t know the exact details or how much of this is true because a lot of it is second and thirdhand from the manager and the other clerk’s sketchy prison cousins. The story was, the owner, being rich and corrupt and owning a few businesses that are fronts for the local mob, had a special crew who helped him with “difficult acquisitions.” Such acquisitions involved sneaking into trailers at rest stops and truck stops and loading as much as they could into their own trucks.

    Unfortunately for them, there had been a rash of thefts reported at one specific truck stop so the owner put up extra cameras and caught them on video. Once they were tracked down, they flipped on the owner…who then tried to pin it on us. Our general cluelessness was probably what saved us. That and the manager’s meticulous recordkeeping that included CDs full of every message the owner ever left on the answering machine.

    The flea market owner paid off the right judges so he didn’t get so much as a misdemeanor. The manager was really salty about him trying to pin felonies on us. Since he was intimidated by her, he agreed to all her demands for raises, bonuses, full paid lunch hours with reimbursable meals, and paid holidays for the three of us. We were still underpaid but at least we were a little less underpaid. And the manager made a point to order lunches from local restaurants every day so we ate very well.

    —–

    Last week:

    The Tale of Bearnice
    https://www.askamanager.org/2024/08/open-thread-august-23-2024.html#comment-4832924

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Oof, brand new electronic equipment sold for low prices definitely sounded like stolen goods to me! (But only while reading this story. If I had been working there, I would’ve been all “another weird day at the flea market, whatever” and not questioned anything.)

      The real surprises were the owner paying off judges! And then the manager leveraging “you tried to pin felonies on us” into raises, bonuses, and reimbursable lunches!! Good for her, I’m glad something good was able to come out of this whole mess.

    2. Anonymous cat*

      Oh my! I also would have initially thought he just found a big clearance pile and not been suspicious.
      Until he freaked out about publicity. A store NOT wanting to advertise excess stock? Urk!

      Space bird, did you get into any legal trouble for taking stolen goods home?
      It wasn’t your fault but sometimes the little fish get dragged in. I hope you were okay!

      1. Anonymous cat*

        Also—website question—how did you get the post to link directly to the Bearnice story?

  74. can we talk about ptsd?*

    My fully remote department is friendly but we aren’t friends. They know that my recent days off for a personal emergency was because of “bad breakup” but they don’t know the relationship issues we had, and they have no details about what went down during the breakup and they don’t know that I now have been diagnosed with PTSD and in weekly therapy. I absolutely don’t feel like any of this is their business, and I’m mostly holding it together at work (probably because it gives me something else to think about), but I also am aware of some challenges. My executive functioning has taken a hit. I’m highly distracted and have to walk away when I feel overloaded and I have been freezing on decision-making. No one has said anything, but I wonder if they’ve noticed. Would love to hear from the crowd on personal experience as an employee with PTSD or a manager whose employee has a new PTSD diagnosis:
    I don’t plan to say anything unless performance concerns are mentioned, but if that happens, do I need to say “PTSD”? Does it sound like just an excuse if I didn’t get in front of it?
    I’m just thinking through how best to protect both my emotional safety and my job.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’ve managed an employee with PTSD (different root cause though).
      1) I don’t think you need to quote the exact diagnosis, to your manager or to your coworkers, if you’re not comfortable doing so. My employee did not immediately use those 4 letters, it was only after we got to know each other better that she expanded on it.
      2) I think most people are not going to equate PTSD with executive function issues, so saying something more general about difficult circumstances, distraction, health issue, etc is probably going to resonate better with them anyway.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      One of the questions on the recent speed round was about a PTSD diagnosis as a manager. I think the advice is pretty broadly applicable:

      You don’t have to [say anything to anyone besides your boss], but as a manager it can be a kindness to your team to give them some context so they’re not worrying about what’s going on (and possibly filling in the blanks with things they’re not right about). You don’t need to give details, though; it would be enough to say, “I’m dealing with some stresses outside of work right now so if you notice me seeming distracted, that’s why. I’m working on it.” You could also replace “some stresses outside of work” with “a medical issue” if you want.

      The full question is 69. PTSD as a manager on the “Ask a Manager speed round” post from August 28, 2024.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Adding because I think this context is important: the reason that person told their boss is because they are out on FMLA leave (sounds like intermittent leave to me).

        There’s no obligation to tell your boss about a PTSD diagnosis. The boss just knows that their report is using FMLA leave, not the specific diagnosis.

        1. can we talk about ptsd?*

          Ohh, thank you for calling that to my attention — I’ve got an open tab with the speed round, hadn’t gotten to reading it yet.

      2. AnonymousOctopus*

        I’ve had to disclose due to work situations including a trigger for me (“Boss, I can’t work X gig because the topic of the meeting is too close to home, you’ll have to find someone else”), but if that wasn’t the case and I was more concerned with my performance I’d handle it exactly that way. “Dealing with outside stressors” is really all anyone needs to know and perfectly explains why your head might not be in the same place it was before the situation that caused PTSD.

        I’m sorry you are going through this, OP.

    4. Friday Me*

      By the time performance concerns are mentioned, you’re behind the 8 ball so to speak. I’d proactively say something to your boss if this is new behavior for you. For me this would be helpful from a direct report so I could know that it is likely temporary and try to find ways to support you.

      The only time you would need to clearly spell out that you are seeking treatment and provide any type of diagnosis is if you were applying for an ADA accommodation or FMLA.

  75. Badgermole*

    Has anyone experienced a situation where part of a Teams chat (individual) conversation was copied and pasted into an email with a larger group of staff? This has happened to me a couple times now and I instinctively feel a little betrayed. The colleague didn’t give any indication they would be copying my words into an email and formally sharing it out, and when I’m chatting my messages are informal and not how I would communicate in an email. The first time this happened I casually brought it up with both the colleague and my supervisor individually, but both laughed it off as a funny situation. The second time was with a different colleague, and I’m wondering if this is a company culture / norm I’m not aware of. I’m not sure how to address this, or if I’m overthinking and should let it go.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Ooh yeah I would not like that at all. If I ever need to take information from a 1-1 chat and share it with somebody else, I either make sure I’m only snipping the truly relevant part of the conversation.

      That being said, I’m an engineer, and we generally don’t care if our prose is overly casual, because 90% of our message content is pretty technical, and there’s no way to Cyrano-DeBergerac up a piece of code or a technical diagram.

    2. M2RB*

      I have had something similar happen to me, where email text I sent a teammate was copied and pasted out to a location. If I had known teammate would be copying & pasting into email to a location, I would have been more careful/polished in my wording.

      I got on a Teams call with that teammate and said, “Hey, the way I email with you and others on our team is much more casual than the way I email with locations. If you need to forward something I’ve sent you on to someone else, please check with me before doing so, so I can make sure it is polished.”

      And then I went back to completely formal/professional emails and Teams messages with that teammate for months. I take stuff like this seriously because as an accountant, maybe we are hashing things out within the department that could cause Problems if the info gets outside the department without having the proper review or approval.

      I also check with people before I forward their emails/Teams messages: “Hey, do you mind if I forward this to so-and-so,” or “Hey, do you mind if I copy your second paragraph into my email to person A, this is exactly the info they need.”

    3. Industry Behemoth*

      In a similar vein, I hate it when someone forwards my email either in answer to someone else’s question, or to ask my original recipient a new question without creating a new messsge.

      The first happened with a client, the second with a vendor. My issue was that my original communication with colleagues, was more informal than something a client or other outsiders would see.

    4. Filosofickle*

      Even though we know rationally that anything typed in a work system might be seen / saved / screenshot, it can feel weird when it happens. (It really depends on the message HOW weird.)

      On Slack, it used to be that you couldn’t share a direct message in another conversation or channel. That set a tone (to me) that direct messages were private. Then Slack made sharing direct messages a one-click process and they started popping up everywhere. I’m not a fan.

      IMO you need to let it go and adjust to this as something that can and will happen. Your team thinks it’s fine, and that seems backed up by Slack normalizing it. Anytime you are communicating with a colleague, know that it could be copied and pasted elsewhere and type accordingly.

  76. AnonForThisOne*

    I would love to hear thoughts on this. Sorry for the Anon but it’s almost enough to be identifiable and I know for certain a former coworker reads AAM.

    I’m wondering what, if anything, I could have done in a situation that happened at a former employer.

    We were struggling to fill a key position. The C level exec over the department and the VP directly over the position were NOT aligned and the C suite was starting to challenge if the VP was the right fit for their current position.

    The VP found a candidate they liked and all but offered the candidate the position unbeknownst to the exec.

    Anger happened and the exec was LIVID that this happened, felt their hands were tied and that they had no way out of offering the person the job. But essentially said if the person isn’t amazing they are going to be fired in the first 60 days.

    I knew all of this…was there a way I could have told the candidate some of it without risking my job? I feel i would have wanted to know the person ultimately in charge of my keeping my job wasnt on board…BUT I also know things like this happen. Maybe without going behind backs but sometimes a hiring team isnt fully aligned. Also if it matters this company also has an NDA.

    I’m no longer with this company…but the VP took a job in another state and the new hire was terminated shortly after and I feel terrible but am at a loss as to what I could have done.

    Also the CEO is incredibly well connected and while not directly involved it’s possible I could have had some fallout from them even after leaving the company.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Being privy to all that emotional-charged disagreement between C-suite and VP would make me want to put my head down for sure. Not knowing all the personalities, I don’t know if I could have said something after they were hired. But if you interviewed this person 1-1, that would have been a good time to give a discretely-worded heads up.

      1. AnonForThisOne*

        Oh it was intense. At one point the VP told me to do what he said and not tell the C Level Exec. Nope.

        I did do a 1 on 1…unfortunately it was PRIOR to all of the mess so there was no (at least none I was aware of) issue to mention to him.

        I think I just feel bad as I knew things were not great for the guy based on this…but I also don’t know the reason he was let go. I know it was performance based but I don’t know if it was because he really was that awful or if it was that the C level who remained just didn’t want him there.

  77. Ghost Emoji*

    So, I present female at work. There’s a guy working in another department who’s generally known as a Weird Dude (WD). The other day, he came up to me and we had an interaction of sorts:

    WD: “Is there something you’re trying to tell me?”
    Me: “…No?”
    WD: “Really, with you looking nice and your hair all nice, there’s nothing you want to tell me?”
    Me: “…No.”

    And he left. That’s it. That’s the whole interaction.

    He was being a creep, that’s a given, but… what the hell did he mean?! What did he “think” I was trying to tell him? Is this something simple that my neurospiciness is obscuring, or was this actually incomprehensible?

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      This sounds very weird to me, and it would leave me a little shaken. Like why does he think anything about how you present yourself is a message for him?

    2. Kathenus*

      I think it’s less incomprehensible than what you already said, he was being a creep. If it was just the first sentence, I’d leave it at weirdness or awkwardness. With the second one, I’d consider reporting to HR if you feel like WD might either continue to make you uncomfortable or be doing so to others. Obviously a lot would depend on your specific situation if you were comfortable with this, but if you are I think it is in HR territory as an FYI at least, maybe not as a report of harassment specifically.

    3. WorkerDrone*

      I would interpret that he creepily hoped your nice hair and nice outfit was a “signal” to him trying to tell him how hot in the pants for him you are. (If by hot, one means, willing to set your pants on literal fire to prevent him from approaching.) As in, you dressed up especially nice to tell him how desperately you want to fling yourself into the fetid swamp of his lust.

      1. Ginger Cat Lady*

        This was my thought too. If you look nice it MUST be for him, and you MUST be just dying to confess your love and fall into his arms so he thought he’d make that easy on you.
        Why are men all too often like this?

      2. Anonymous cat*

        It might also be a weird way of flirting.

        You look nice today.
        He makes an open-ended compliment.
        You say, Why, yes, I’m looking for a date this weekend. You available?
        He gets a date.

        Not a very effective way but maybe he saw it on tv.

      3. Ama*

        It sounds to me like a line he picked up from some awful “pick up artist” dude, hopefully the fact that it failed miserably will get him to stop. (I will say from my own experience as someone who never picks up on flirting cues even from my own husband, sometimes my cluelessness has been my best weapon against creeps – they’re prepared for either a positive or negative reaction, if they get *no* reaction they get confused and give up).

        Although if he does it again, tell him he needs to stop making comments like that to you and then go to your boss.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Since a sudden change in your level of professional polish / formality of dress can be a “tell” for job interviews, there is a chance he was asking if you are interviewing for another job.

      But it’s a really weird, off-putting way to go about it, and none of his business anyway.

    5. Rex Libris*

      At a (fairly certain) guess, he’s assuming you were trying to look nice to get his attention because he’s obviously an unbelievable creep, I mean catch.

    6. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      He meant he is a wierdo who imagines things are about him that have nothing to do with him.

      That’s all, you’re not missing anything.

    7. Irish Teacher.*

      No, I don’t think this is something your neurospiciness is obscuring. I think he just is being incredibly weird. I think the most likely interpretations are the ones others have mentioned, either he thinks you fancy him and are dressing up to gain his attention or just possibly he thinks you have a job interview (though why you’d tell him about that, I don’t know).

      Or quite possibly the incomprehensibility might be the point. I suspect it may well be. Either he is just the type of guy who likes making people uncomfortable and enjoys the thought of you trying to figure it out and being a bit shaken because it makes him feel powerful or he is keeping it vague to avoid you reporting him to HR. Like he’s hinting about you fancying him but it’s incomprehensible enough that there is nothing concrete to report.

  78. Goose*

    Small rant: I work on an amazing and supportive team. No one involved has any ill intentions.

    My grandfather died this summer after a short illness. I was out of the country on a work trip and wasn’t able to come home for the funeral. I told my boss and she wished me condolences.

    Another team member’s grandparent died last week. An email was sent to the whole team about it, and the team sent food to the family. The team member had been an active caretaker for this grandparent for a while.

    Just feeling a bit bummed that the treatment was so different. The same thing happened last year when I had major surgery over an office closure where I only heard from one team member about it, and for another colleague who had major surgery we sent a food delivery gift card (that I contributed to.) We also do something for every baby born (3 since I’ve worked here.) I didn’t say anything after the surgery thing, but now that it’s happened again I don’t know if I should say anything to anyone.

    1. Kathenus*

      That’s really difficult, and I know how personal it can feel. It may be, but it also may not. Some differences I see that might be involved – you were out of the country when your grandfather passed, the other team member wasn’t and with the added dimension of being a caregiver so presumably that might include being in the same household. Sometimes people view these things differently. Second example, you had your surgery over an office closure and the colleague did not – so if the office was open for yours the same might have happened organically because people were there to do so and talk about it.

      This does not at all absolve them for not considering your situations and giving you more support, at all, only that it could be out of something other than intent or malice.

      I left a job years back where I had very strong relationships with multiple teams, due to my role as basically an internal consultant. When people left this institution, especially in the area I was in, goodbye parties were the norm. Since I was so close to people in this job, more so than any other I’ve worked in since really, I was both surprised and really hurt when no one said or did anything to acknowledge my leaving. I found out later that someone told people I didn’t want a party so those who heard that wanted to respect ‘my’ wishes. Only I never said that, or anything like it, and have no idea who said it or why. When folks found out they were mortified on the misunderstanding. I’ll admit it still stings a bit, even knowing the story, but at least I know it wasn’t intentional.

      That could be the case here too, hopefully.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Sorry for your loss.

      I do think there’s a difference in response to deaths in immediate household members (people living with you) vs broader family. Since your coworker was caring for their grandparent that’s probably why the difference in response.

      1. Ali + Nino*

        So sorry for your loss. I agree that this take. I also wonder if the purpose of the email was to signal to the team that a change affecting your coworker’s hours/availability is coming. I wouldn’t have expected (nor did I see) a company- or team-wide email regarding either of my grandparents ‘ deaths; as sad as I was, I had been living hundreds of miles away from them for years, so this didn’t impact my work/availability long-term.

    3. Anoon*

      do you have the same boss as the other people in your examples? in my office this is very manager dependent and we do not have a standard protocol across the (thousands of employees) organization. some bosses are very good at acknowledging personal issues and others arent. this means that some people in our department get wedding showers and others dont. some people get sympathy cards and collections while others dont. it stinks. we all report up to the department head but because there are so many units in our department, it really depends on the manager (or, sometimes their admin assistant) of the particular unit to set the cultural norm.

      sorry for your loss, and the added sting of not having it acknowledged.

  79. Rincewind*

    Is there a professional way to grow out a beard? I’m trying to grow mine out for an event in October. I don’t have a ton of Facial hair so I’m not ever going to get a “mountain man” style beard but I want to go from my current goatee style to a full beard. I know from times when I was fully WFH that if I don’t shave for more than about 2 days it becomes noticeable even on video calls and looks messy in person. Is there some way I can maintain/trim it as it grows out that will look professional rather than scruffy?

    1. Emmie*

      Absolutely.
      Start from a clean face with no goatee. Let all your facial hair grow at the same time.
      Trim the edges – around the cheeks, under the chin, and near the hairline. It makes it look more intentional.
      Ensure the back of your neck is always trimmed. It shows that you are put together and the five o’clock shadow is intentional.
      Nice bonus: watch your sideburns if your hair is longer. You may work with a barber to ensure that the connection between your beard and hair is intentional.

    2. Kesnit*

      Keep the edges trimmed. Use a razor where you can select the length and gradually shave for longer facial hair. Since you already have facial hair, consider cutting it shorter than you usually keep it so the difference between the old and new is not as drastic.

    3. Antilles*

      In addition to the good advice others have suggested, I’ll add that it helps a lot if you use a beard comb and some beard oil to ‘style’ it so to speak. When it’s starting to grow out, you might not need to do it very often (maybe even as little as once a week), but it can really help shape the look so it doesn’t just look like your beard hairs are just pointing all over in different directions.

    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      Just say you’re worried about flu+covid and wear a face mask at work again for a couple weeks till you get past the worst stage of it

      1. Rincewind*

        you know, that’s not a bad idea. I’ve masked at the office before due to a family member’s upcoming surgery date. keep it clean and trimmed and combed, and if it’s really unruly cover it up. Thanks all!

  80. I should really pick a name*

    For people in the US who get paid parental leave, and get time beyond FMLA, how much time do you get and what percentage of your regular pay do you get?

    Just looking for numbers, not comparisons to other countries.

    2. DrSalty*

      Birth parent – 12 weeks fully paid. Stacks with FMLA, and half is paid through short term disability insurance.

      1. MaternityLeave*

        Most places I’ve worked offer 12 weeks but expect you to use short term disability for the payments so if you’re not eligible for 11 weeks of paid STD some of it is unpaid. I’m not sure how they handle the 1 week waiting period (for regular illness you’d be expected to use sick time)

  81. The same, but different*

    What should one do/keep in mind when joining a new company that will have several former coworkers there? The industry I’m in has been massively affected by layoffs and downsizing, my company included.

    However, there are a couple companies that have been hiring folks, and I will be starting at a place that has also scooped up many of my former teammates and managers from a small, close knit, but healthy culture. At the new company, we are in different teams from before and don’t report to each other.

    How should I strike the right balance between keeping connections with my old team while melding well with my new one?

    1. Kathenus*

      One thing would be to be aware of doing a lot of talking about your old company together, it might land wrong with others there. And try not to be, or appear to be, clique-like. So not avoiding old coworkers, but trying to include others in discussions when with them at least some times too so it doesn’t seem like you all together and separate from new colleagues.

  82. Growing Pains*

    Tips for success in managing early career folks in an almost completely remote department? My managers are all really great at supporting mid/late career folks but we seem to be really missing the mark with 1st job/ very early career new hires. They start out enthusiastic and we are hopeful and within 6 months we are struggling to get them to make improvements in their work based on feedback, take initiative for creativity and problem solving (very small problems), and take on a full workload. This isn’t any one team or manager

    1. Stretchy McGillicuddy*

      Early career is tough for remote work because I think most office norms are learned through osmosis. As much of a pain as it may be I think you need to make sure you are meeting with them very, very regularly. Like, probably once or twice a day do quick check ins to make sure they are on track and know what is going on. Do you have an HR department? Maybe they can set up a mentorship program with new hires so they understand what is expected.

      1. Growing Pains*

        I think we can do all of that. I suspect that for this particular cohort of early career hires the fact that they likely graduated college/ started working at height of the pandemic isn’t helping either.

    2. RM*

      hire career changers like me who are junior in the specific industry/field but mid level – senior in terms of general work skills and self management! I kid, but, a lot of highschool or college jobs like food service and retail actively punish people for creativity and problem solving. Taking initiative to solve a problem, or dealing with any kind of paperwork is the store manager’s job and you learn to be kind of passive even though you might be thinking about how to solve the problem or notice that X paperwork is late/done incorrectly. So people have to unlearn the feeling that taking initiative and starting a plan of attack is getting above themselves and subject to shade and/or a scolding by their superiors.

      I think you need to explicitly say troubleshooting A, B, and C is your job, getting help from a senior person if you get stuck is also part of your job. Also maybe a 30, 60, 90 day roadmap for what tasks they should be able to do and at what volume/speed? Then you have concrete goals for them to work towards and for you to be able to refer back to when you discuss performance.

      1. Growing Pains*

        I love hiring career changers! My current favorite is a former Theatre Director who is absolutely rocking as a project manager. Good point that we may need to more proactively help with the unlearning process related to former workplaces.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      I agree with Stretchy. Other suggestions:

      – pair them with a “buddy” or “mentor.” Someone they have regular (once a week or once a month) meetings with who is not their manager. The new hires/early career folks may have questions they aren’t comfortable asking their managers, so it’s good to have someone else they can ask instead.

      – tell your managers that they and their established folks need to be clear about a lot of things with the new hires/early career people. When everyone’s in the office, it may be pretty clear that the TPS report is due by the end of today, not two weeks from now. And the manager/a senior employee can always give a quick “how’s the TPS report coming along? Will it be done by 5?” when they’re walking by the new person’s cube. But when everyone’s remote, that stuff falls away and it takes more effort to remember to tell the new person “please have this done by 5” when you’re giving them the assignment.

      – for problem solving initiative, can you/your managers slowly ramp up expectations in a structured way? Make “have you noticed any problems with our systems/forms/processes/etc.? Anything that could be improved or made more efficient?” a regular question, and “where would you start if I asked you to [solve this/improve this]?” Next step: “I think this is a good one for you to tackle. Please [solve this/improve this].” Eventually: “instead of waiting for me to tell you which problems to solve, if you see something wrong [in this system/with this process], you can go ahead and fix it.”

      Also, is there any place where these things are visible? Like a slack or Teams channel, where new hires can see that the mid- and senior-level people are making this changes/adjustments/improvements as part of their regular work? At my work, we have a fully defined process for certain types of changes (and after a few months of only being assigned tasks in that system, people are expected to put in tasks when they notice something wrong). We also have a Teams channel for problems/solutions with one particular system. Most of the problems with that system have to fixed by IT, but it is helpful to see all the past problems/solutions for that particular system in one place.

      1. Growing Pains*

        This is all super helpful – I particularly like the ideas about spreading the mentorship around. Thank you!

    4. Bitte Meddler*

      Loads and loads of daily interactions to keep them engaged and from crawling into the [false] safety of their own brains.

      Lots of screen-sharing, whether it be the new hire “looking over the shoulder” of the person they’re learning from, or a more experienced person coaching the new hire through something the new hire is doing on their screen.

      And I agree with the other suggestions about assigning mentors, and then rotating the mentors.

  83. Hilp*

    I’m in my late 30’s; knowledge workers in not-for-profit sector in NYC. I’m lucky enough to be well-respected by coworkers, but I’m so tired and bored with working in general and wish I could quit and sit in the park all day (or else, buy a house and move away, except that would require more money and career motivation…). I guess I’m wondering how other early mid-life knowledge workers are dealing with the reality that you need to keep working for a living until Medicare kicks in in 30 more years, when you’re sick of staring at a computer screen all day and feeling burned out. I’ve taken vacations this summer and my job is super chill which is awesome, but I still feel stultified. I’m the primary breadwinner in my family, and responsible for cushy employer-sponsored health insurance coverage and so forth, so there would be stress involved in a major shakeup but I feel like I’m frittering away my healthiest years by selling my time so I can afford to live.

    1. Goddess47*

      Find something outside of work you can be passionate about. A hobby, an event, a cause… think of it as work allowing you to do your passion.

      It doesn’t have to be a big thing or even daily. A once-a-month event that you look forward to going to…

      Good luck!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      My advice is going to sound unhelpful at first glance so bear with me for a bit. See if you can find a copy of Work Optional by Tanja Hester (one of the branches of the NCY public library probably has this?). If I recall correctly, the book is split up into three parts:
      1- Why do you want to retire early/What does living your best life look like?
      2- How to save enough money to retire early
      3 – How to make sure retirement is successful

      Just read part 1, skip the rest. There are a lot of good questions in there. If you didn’t have to work for a living, what would you do with your days? and other questions along those lines. And then Hester asks: are there any of those things you could be doing right now, while you’re still working?

      Spending three months in Paris learning French and drinking fancy wine? No, probably can’t do that while working a full-time job. But taking an after-work French class? Buying new wines and keeping notes on which you like best, what foods they pair with well? That’s do-able for most people. This is just an example, but the idea is that you can make some intentional changes in your life so you don’t feel you’re frittering away your healthy years. (And I recommend the book because it has better question and does a better job laying it out than I can do in this comment.)

  84. WereFerret*

    On Monday I’m planning to tell my coworkers of the organization I work at that I’m going to resign (we’re the leadership team of four, there’s no one above us). My hope is that we can work out what my transitioning out of my role looks like (I’ve already been going through the archives here for help), but I fully expect some big feelings in the mix as well. Too, this will be the first time anyone in our organization has done something like this (it’s a non-profit) so everyone, myself included, is in uncharted territory. If anyone has advice on what you did/wish you’d done when someone reacted with a lot of emotions to news of you leaving, I’d love to hear it.

    1. HonorBox*

      Dan Savage tells people (paraphrasing here) who are coming out to let their family react for a period of time. If they come around, Yahtzee! If they don’t, then you know something more about them. This is obviously different, but if you’re expecting some big emotions or an outsized reaction, tell whoever it is that you’re going to give them some time and will come back to them to discuss how the transition will look. You don’t have to sit and be the recipient of their emotions because you don’t deserve to sit through anger or sadness or whatever.

    2. Anoon*

      What do you mean that this is the first time anyone in your org has done this– resigned? Are you a brand new organization?

      1. WereFerret*

        Nope, several decades old. But the structure up until the last six years or so only had one staff person, and the previous times someone has left have been either an abrupt quitting or someone being let go.

        1. Anoon*

          Ah, so the first person to want to transition out rather than leave abruptly? Honestly, the thing I’d most prepare for is the possibility that they’d rather you leave more quickly than you are proposing. I am sure that you have a good read on how valued you are and how emotional your team will be. In my experience it’s often better to wrap up and go rather than have a long transition out. I have worked in non-profits and government agencies with long-serving leaders (or even founders) and sometimes the most senior leadership is bound (by contract or by custom) to announce their departure a year in advance so the org has time for a nationwide search for their replacement. But that is typically for large national non-profits with nation-wide staff and projects that need serious transition planning so that funders don’t get spooked with a leadership vacuum. In most orgs senior leadership will give more than the typical two weeks notice, but not more than a couple months to transition projects and train interim staff.

          You said there is no one above you, but do you have a board of directors? Are there bylaws that govern how senior leadership transitions will work? If not, this will be a good opportunity for the organization to develop those protocols. You may be the first but you will not be the last.

          In terms of the emotional response I’m not sure there is much you can do.
          Unfortunately, I think it is quite common in nonprofit culture for an org to feel betrayed by someone leaving. It has definitely been my experience– and I was once even accused of “using” an org to pivot to a new/better job at a different org. My advice is not to try to defend yourself if it gets personal, just acknowledge that this is difficult news to hear and that you are open to helping transition out of the role over several weeks if that would be helpful. But as I said, I would be prepared for them to say thanks but no thanks to that offer. Good luck.

  85. call me wheels*

    good evening! clocking in for my weekly post-graduation job hunt update O7

    so yesterday I ended an interview early for the first time! It became apparent it was a role that just would not work for me (involved door to door sales which I wouldn’t manage with my disability) and so I just politely let the interviewer know and said ‘knowing I can’t do that part of the job, does it make sense to keep talking or end it here?’ and he chose to wrap up quickly (he was late starting so I think other candidates were waiting.) It’s only thanks to AAM that I even knew that was an option and it helped me feel better about not wasting any more time than could be helped.

    Had some recruiter calls this morning, got a lead on a role that seems potentially promising not too far from my new town. She did warn me the owner is ‘quirky’ though (told me she suspected he’s autistic) and does things like work odd hours and as part of onboarding he does an unusual personality test on people? It doesn’t sound bad enough to be a red flag but I will keep my eyes open for dysfunction if I get an interview I suppose. The recruiter did say she felt the salary they are offering is lower than what I’m worth though so she’s going to talk to them about increasing it which I think is good? I haven’t encountered this before but I’m just relieved my experience and degree does apparently count for somehting, I’ve been worried it wouldn’t at all.

    moving into my new place on Monday so I am very excited about all that! Though would love to get a job soon so rent doesn’t bleed me dry :’) hope everyone has a great weekend!

  86. The red orchid*

    Full disclosure, this is a rant, or at least a reflection of how nearsighted we all are as humans.

    Due to the way the cookie crumbles, everyone on our team has the same level. There could be a team lead in between us and the manager, but it hasn’t been filled since the last one left. (So much hot gos.)

    The thing is, each of the employees fancies themselves as the team lead.
    Including myself, to be honest.

    We all have different reasons for “deserving” this honorary promotion, from seniority to friendship with the manager, to general knowledge, and one who’s confused authority with bossiness.

    Enter Bossie. Bossie thinks they’re in charge. Only problem is, nobody really likes bossie, and every employee has complained to the manager about them. I’ve got the best relationship with them, and it can be strained.

    Bossie posts in the group chat as if she is the manager. One of the employees who shares mutual dislike with Bossie will often reply with insults. The rest of us keep are mouth shut, because there isn’t enough hours to go on.

    Although maybe we should make a stink. Somehow the worst workers end up with the most hours. The employees who do our part get less hours than the ones who are publicly tottered on shift!

    This world doesn’t make sense, friends.

  87. ExpressiveFace*

    In a zoom meeting this week I was presenting so couldn’t see my own face – the other attendees weren’t on camera. Someone else in the meeting was like ‘we’ll have to decide on our policy whether to support custom teapots’, and I was like ‘no, we don’t have a choice, our biggest customers rely on custom teapots’. He was rambling about how they’re expensive but definitely also referencing a subset of teapots his team deals with, rather than the general concept which my team owns. My disagreement was clearly writ large all over my face because he basically ticked me off for ‘shaking my head’ and ‘making a face’/‘trying to push my view without proper discussion’.
    I did apologise but tbh should I have done? Is it a sin to show disagreement visibly..? He’s not more senior than me and whilst it shouldn’t matter politeness wise, he was 100% wrong :)

    1. Hyaline*

      Disagreeing, or even showing some negativity in your facial expression, isn’t necessarily a sin, but I do think that it’s expected that you control your face to some degree. Honestly there have been times where I have turned my video off because I couldn’t control my face adequately in meetings where I felt that people were being absolute dingleberries. Beyond just the facial expressions, it’s not necessarily expedient, but I think that you have to read the room and the hierarchy a little bit to know if you need to pretend to entertain truly stupid ideas and that’s just part of the culture to have a “ conversation“ in order to preserve higher ups, egos or image.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      I don’t think you needed to apologise simply for disagreeing with someone and the fact he was policing your expression is a little…. much. I’m wondering if he was letting you get a word in and that’s why your expression was doing so much overtime? The alternative is you looked while you were disagreeing while verbally disagreeing.. which is what you’d expect! I think apologising regardless is pretty clever though. This way you shut down his attempt to take over the meeting; apologising afterwards doesn’t undo your good work on standing firm when it mattered, during the meeting. Now that you know this is someone likely to howl when their ideas aren’t automatically considered you need to decide how you’ll deal with it going forward. Do the same again or make them feel more heard? I would possibly give them a very short hearing without visibly reacting but just say “That’s interesting, but so many of our customers rely on custom teapots” and if he persists just “Yes, but sorry, I don’t agree”.

    3. Pam Adams*

      Disagreement is fine. Making faces, rolling your eyes, etc. is wrong. You might want to check with a neutral observer, though. This guy sounds like someone with a bias.

      1. TechWorker*

        Thanks. I definitely was making faces without thinking about it (but also because I was waiting for him to finish vs jumping in to disagree). This guy is known to be prickly and take offence easily, so it was probably a predictable situation with hindsight but it definitely would have been better to just not be on camera!

    4. Goddess47*

      My inner Alison also wonders if you are female and the other person is male. So he’s using a gender stereotype against you… ‘women are so emotional’

      You’re allowed basic emotions and you would probably have done similar things if it was a face-to-face meeting. He’s using the video aspect to shut you down so he can make his point. “Face was rude to me, so my point is correct.” Beware of that.

      I’m not sure I would have apologized. Was someone you trust in that meeting that you can bounce this off of?

  88. Second Breakfast*

    My daughter starts kindergarten next week, so I can finally launch my job search in earnest! I’ve been a SAHM for the last six years, aside from the occasional freelance copywriting or editing project. Now I’m hoping to find a remote job that pays more than I’d make in the classroom.

    I’ve been browsing open jobs on OTTA and am planning to apply for some copywriting roles, but a few entry-level project management jobs caught my eye. I’ve heard that project management can be a good field for former teachers, and most of these roles don’t require previous experience. Still, I’m a little worried that the gap in my resume will be a problem there.

    Any tips for applying to project management roles, especially without previous experience in the field? Would getting a project management certificate help?

    1. BLUnt*

      Congrats on your daughter and on the foray back into the working world! I highly recommend looking into the translation and localization world, where they are ALWAYS looking for project managers. Associate PMs are often recent grads but can have studied a range of subjects in college, so your background shouldn’t be a negative at all. While there is often a desire for bilingual PMs who can help review certain content, it’s usually not necessary, as an expert is doing it, and is usually seen as a “nice-to-have.”
      This is an industry that has basically been doing remote since before it was a thing, and you’ll likely have colleagues all over the world. Do keep your salary expectations in line for the entry-level job, but at most companies there should be opportunities for advancement. From one mom to another – best of luck!

      1. Second Breakfast*

        Thanks! I am so excited to get back into the workforce. I appreciate the tip about the translation and localization world.

        I’m trying to keep my salary expectations in line for an entry-level job. However, since I live in a state that requires job openings to post a salary range, the funny/sad thing is that most entry level jobs I’m finding still seem to pay more than I’d make as a mid-career teacher.

  89. Riley*

    Just an update- a few years ago, I posted in a Friday open thread asking what to do after apply for a job and noticing that I accidentally applied with a version of my cover letter that said I was interested in this position at [insert wrong company name]. Well, it turns out that no one ever noticed that on my application, I interviewed, was hired, and have now been working the job for over two years!

  90. Tradd*

    I’m the customs broker that has posted a in the past. I’m beginning to look for another position now. Texted with the recruiter I got current job through back in 2021. We’ve set up a call for after work today. So much stuff is just chaos right now where I am. Too much to go into detail. This job is like golden handcuffs as I’m making good money, but I’m going to see what’s out there. I’ve just had enough. Recruiter told me on texts that what is out there is all in the office for our area. Hybrid is rare. I told her that’s not an issue.

    1. Mireya*

      Good luck! Hope you find something soon, since lacof hybrid/remote isn’t an issue for you.

      Also, if you hear anything and can share, I’m curious about your acquaintances’ adult offspring who were laid off and so far won’t take anything less than 100% remote.

      1. Tradd*

        Last I heard, none of the kids have a job yet. One of my friends (one of the moms) posted on FB about her frustration with the whole situation and the comments were really interesting. There were some younger folks who thought the kids were OK turning down in office jobs and mooching off their parents. When I commented that they don’t have a job and should be doing something to bring in some cash, oh, did the younger folks pile on me. Ironically, when I asked them what they would do if they had a family to feed, no answers. Crickets. Reading all the comments on that one was definitely fun!

    2. Random Academic Cog*

      Since you’ve seen that a significant proportion of candidates are refusing office-based roles, added to that being such a huge issue that the recruiter brought it up independently, you should be extremely competitive. Hope you get an offer quickly!

  91. Qwerty*

    I’m giving my first talk at a local tech conference! Tips? Advice? I got asked last minute and wrote my proposal real quick in the middle of the night – conference is in a couple weeks but I’m traveling for most of the time so I’ll probably have to write it the weekend before.

    I also just lost my main case study I was going to reference so mildly freaking out as I now have to rely on stuff from 10yrs ago. (Work project got derailed and can’t talk it about in this presentation anymore)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You will not have as much time as you think you have. So don’t stress about not having enough to say.

      If you’re doing a slide deck, please please please do not read the slides.

      I think it always helps to spend a little time up front with terminology – especially acronyms – that won’t be familiar to everyone.

    2. Harlowe*

      If you think you’re talking ridiculously slowly, you’re just about right. Film yourself and play it back, you’ll get a feel for it. A good pace feels glacial when you’re stressed and on the spot.

    3. Antilles*

      1.) Practice your talk/presentation ahead of time, in a way that’s as close to real as you can get it. Don’t just click through your slides with a vague “oh here I’ll use that example of teapot design”, actually run through your presentation as though you were giving the presentation to an imaginary audience.
      2.) Know the time limit you’re trying to hit. Practice helps here, but note that many people will go faster in reality than in practice, so if you’re already coming in short of your target time in practice, you probably want to add a little more content. One nice trick here is to have the last slide or two be a review of your main points or key takeaways because that’s easy to adjust on the fly – if you’ve got extra time, you talk through all of them in detail; if you’re in a hurry, you just speed through them to wrap it up.
      3.) Remember that just like acting, absolutely nobody knows what the presentation is supposed to say except for you. You might forget something or skip something, but don’t let it throw you, just work it in where you can and roll with it.
      4.) Practice. Yes I’m listing it twice, because it really is that important to calm your nerves and build your confidence.

    4. Kay*

      Practice, practice, practice, practice – as if you were doing it live! Wear what you plan to wear, time yourself, record yourself and adjust as needed. Also, if you plan to use any tech – have a backup plan (or 2) for what you will do if that tech doesn’t work or play well.

    5. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      Practice, practice, practice! It’s helpful to have someone listen while you practice or watch yourself in the mirror if you can.

      First time I gave a presentation, I did practice, but a combination of nerves and being a natural fast talker meant that I gave what was supposed to be a 15-20 minute presentation with time for questions in 7 minutes without skipping anything. (I did better the next time).

  92. dkeocjel*

    I’ve been interviewing at a startup and I keep flip flopping on whether or not I’m interested.

    I’ve been at my current company awhile, but I feel stagnant, my manager and her manager aren’t good, but they mostly leave us alone. I’m paid well, just dissatisfied since things here used to be so much better. But it’s possible things will improve if I’m patient.

    Startup will appreciate me, I definitely won’t be stagnant. But there’s chaos at startups and risk.

    Just found out a family member’s health is in serious decline. Maybe now’s not the time to make a change.

    1. Meep*

      As someone who has been with a start-up for 7 years, they are certainly a good learning experience and you will do A LOT of different things. But it is definitely not for everyone. Especially if you require stability.

      Also, I wouldn’t bank on start-ups appreciating you. Many are good at being relatable, but they will suck what they can out of you including free labor.

    2. Qwerty*

      Startup will not appreciate you the way you likely want them to. Appreciation at a startup is “Yay, Jane pulled an all nighter to get us caught up! Lets double the scope so she has to do it again!”

      I’m on my third startup and will probably stay in the space a few more years. Devs often appreciate each other and I got my closest friends from these places. Leadership on the other hand….is good at the beginning or when they want something but doesn’t seem to learn from mistakes.

      My recommendation to anyone going to a startup is be prepared to lose your job. The startup could go under. Layoffs could happen. Many are quick to fire people / scapegoat. The company might pivot to a totally different direction that is incompatible with your skills / values so your choice become be miserable or leave. The smaller the company, the easier it is for one new person to turn it toxic – especially if they are a member of leadership.

    3. Lucy*

      I can’t speak to working at start ups specifically, but I have similar feelings about being unchallenged and unappreciated at my current job. My two cents: Getting a hobby or starting a personal project helps a lot. I use the energy I used to put into handling more challenging positions into my own projects, for now. If you’re paid well and have a lot going on in your personal life, I would be very picky about moving on. And I wouldn’t factor appreciation into the equation at all. It may evaporate once they’ve hired you, and it won’t pay the bills.

    4. WellRed*

      My only comment is that I think it’s optimistic to believe the current job will improve. Is that based on anything grounded in reality or a fervent wish?

  93. Jelly*

    What do you do when a project manager tries to start rumors about you in what you think is an attempt to sabotage?

    Background: I’ve been working on a large project that reached several departments for several years which was going fine. About a year ago, “Sarah” was hired as the deputy project manager with the expectation that she would take over after “Kristen” retires. The retirement came and went. With new leadership, came new procedures and project organizations. A number of staff, including me, expressed concerns about the restructure for a number of reasons, primarily noting the increased workload on a small group of staff (me included) and the increase in meetings and reduction in actual productivity. Our concerns were not allayed (her prerogative). Since Sarah’s take over, there is high turn over on the project and people have voiced their unhappiness to their bosses in their departments. She uses her authority to reduce people’s chargeable hours on the project, but still expected the same amount of work to be completed by the group which leads to burn out. When people leave, they’re not back filled. The department heads try to talk to Sarah’s boss and their bosses about the situation, so far, there has not been any real changes. And on the project front, all the concerns people voiced earlier are becoming apparent.

    Sarah has now started to target individuals. She provided feedback to several people about how she’s heard from other people about their “behavior” from others (but she herself hasn’t seen any so can’t give concrete examples) and is concerned about our professionalism. This is only for the group of individuals who are still on the project who voiced their concerns initially. She can’t kick people off for performance because we’re doing lots of good work despite her, so now I feel like she’s trying to start rumors. My reputation has been great, but I don’t want her implications to ruin my future opportunities. My boss, my grand-boss, and my great-grandboss are aware, but they can’t do anything because Sarah’s chain of command refuses or can’t see the issues. HR is also aware and has been documenting.

    In the mean time, what can I do to prevent my reputation be sullied by her? Should I confront her? I feel like that’s counterproductive because her mind is made up about me. My worried is when she voices these “concerns” to other project managers that don’t know me well. We all spent a lot of time on this project and care about it a lot, but everyone who is good or experienced are leaving when they can or are quiet quitting. My boss is determined to help fix this because she cares about her staff and the project; I want to suggest to her that maybe we should just stop supporting the project but that’s not an option because this project is a huge part of our portfolio.

    1. WellRed*

      First of, you do know that these “concerns from other people” don’t exist. Second, I don’t work in a billable environment but how does it work that she reduces the hours on paper but not in real life? If I’m not getting “paid,” I’m nit working. Third; your boss kinda sucks.

      1. Jelly*

        Yes, I do know these concerns don’t exist and are not from “other people”. They’re her own feelings. But there’s still the real concern that other people would believe her.

        As to the billable hours, while we charge hours to projects, we’re all exempt, so even if the team work 60 hours in 1 week on her project, it only costs her the equivalent of 40 hours.

        1. Jelly*

          I feel like my boss has my back and is trying to solve this issue with Sarah. Can you explain how my boss sucks? What can she do as she’s spoken to her boss, Sarah’s boss, and HR. My boss also can’t remove everyone on her team from Sarah’s project without having other projects lined up which I know she’s working hard on.

    2. Chirpy*

      I’ve never figured out a good way to salvage this kind of situation, honestly. If the chain of command doesn’t deal with it, I don’t know what else can be done.

    3. Brevity*

      I dealt with a version of this. First, do NOT confront her. That just gives her ammo. Second, start taking very, very good and detailed notes from a CYA perspective. It’s a bitch, but will inevitably come in handy when she misrepresents what you said, or when you said it, or to whom you said it, etc. Third, check both Federal and your state’s employment laws for whatever issues you’ve seen. I know that seems like overkill, but it really, really helped me to know that if my particular Sarah went in a certain direction, there was a Federal agency I could legitimately go to.

      TL:DR, the Boy Scouts are right: Be Prepared.

  94. Teapot Coordinator*

    How long did it take you to get promoted? I’m not talking about moving from one position to another, but getting a higher pay and “moving up” in terms of title in your current role, i.e. “Teapot Coordinator” to “Senior Teapot Coordinator” on the same team.

    I’ve talked about this with my supervisor on and off since March, and it’s been confirmed that there is money available for a promotion. My supervisor did confirm that I’m doing the work of a Senior Teapot Coordinator, and last time I talked to them (early August) they said they were talking to their boss and HR about promoting me.

    Does it usually take this long to get promoted internally? I am job searching at the moment and while I would prefer to stay at my current employer. There have been several other colleagues of mine who have gotten promoted recently but I’m not sure how long it took for them to get promoted.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      In my experience, this long timeframe either reflects a small/young company without good procedures & the support staff to make this run smoothly, or a malfunctioning boss.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Assuming your question is “How long much time should pass between being told you’re getting a promotion and actually getting the title change / pay bump?” I don’t think this is egregiously bad. Like, it’s not great, obviously, but a lot of time there are things outside your boss’ control that they’re waiting for confirmation on, e.g. maybe they’re waiting for a certain budget to be finalized to figure out if someone else is getting a promotion, and yours going through depends on theirs going through first. I work somewhere where everything moves at a glacial pace, though, so while I’d be annoyed about this, I wouldn’t be surprised by it.

    3. Alex*

      It took me 8 friggin years. But my boss was being obstructive. I had to go to HR and let them know that I was actually carrying a workload that EXCEEDED the “Senior Teapot Coordinator” job description, but was being paid as a “Junior Teapot Coordinator.”

      I started my campaign with HR in August, when they were like hm yeah that’s not right, but by November it still hadn’t happened. It took me getting an outside offer and using it as leverage to actually get the promotion. And then my boss STILL didn’t want to give it to me, only wanted to agree to revisit in 6 months. However, HER boss stepped in and granted me the promotion in order to keep me.

      (As for the outside offer, I applied to that position in good faith, thinking that I would leave, but during the interview process I decided it wasn’t for me after all. I still used the offer as leverage though.)

      So yeah, a couple of weeks seems really normal to me.

      1. Mimmy*

        Oh good, now I don’t feel so bad that I just got a promotion after 7.5 years at my current job!

        1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

          Congratulations Mimmy!
          As an introvert/engineer, I didn’t get a promotion for the 10 years in the same department/division and after a lateral transfer to another division/location for the next 8 years. The average time that I reported to the same supervisor was about a year (longest was 2.5 years; shortest was 4 weeks, as the department was being shifted to another “center”). The one or two supervisors who made suggestions on how to improve towards a promotion, weren’t there 6 months later.
          After 2 years in retirement, the coulda/shoulda/wouldas still bug me. Keeping my head down and trying not to “rock the boat” wasn’t the right method towards promotion.
          Now I see that I should have looked more seriously at mentors. I was looking for the “perfect” one, and never ended up with one at all.

    4. Anon4this*

      Yes. Are you in higher ed? Someone I know works in higher end and has been trying to get people on their team promoted for almost a year. HR and other departments are having a fit/ taking forever. The boss also had to fill out insane forms showing they are doing 20% over their role over a certain period to get promoted. My friend told HR this one person is the most valuable to me on my team they must be promoted and get a raise. HR didn’t really care and it was all about equity and parity between people in the same role. We all know some people do more and better than others and I’m sorry but they should be paid and recognized for it!!

      It is immensely frustrating. I’m sorry!

      .

      1. Teapot Coordinator*

        Yes I am in higher ed! I should have mentioned that lol. We also get the “equity among schools/depts” excuse on why they can’t be more competitive with their salaries.

        I have been in higher ed long enough to know that some of it is out of my boss’ control (i.e. budget, HR) but not long enough to navigate the politics on moving up… at a certain point it seems easier to actually just get a new job than it is to move up within your employer :/

        1. Anon4this*

          Everyone I know who works in higher ed had to leave their university to make a huge jump in salary and job. It was really unfortunate. A friend now directs multiple division/departments within a school and they only gave them a slight raise, but the responsibility is so much. They took it as they had already been doing the role with no increase or title change for more than a year anyway!

          I wish more universities appreciated their employees and retained people. This friend owns a home and has kids and most likely will have to actually move. It is really frustrating.

    5. A reader among many*

      I think it depends very much on the job. The last job I worked, there were three levels for the most common type of employee, and these employees were divided between several equally-powerful managers. Responsibilities accrued naturally to diligent employees over time, but the written description of the responsibilities expected of each level was rather vague. They had to be flexible, for Reasons related to the nature of the work, but it did mean that promotions were mostly at the discretion of your boss, and the different managers had very different ideas of what merited the (modest but noticeable) pay increase and title boost. Some seemingly never promoted, while others tried to promote good employees by one level per year.

      For other jobs there, including my current one (different department), HR reviews experience and resumes, mapping them onto a secret internal template at irregular intervals to determine both promotions and pay bands. I don’t understand it at all, and it’s led to similar job classifications in different departments having a $20,000 pay difference.

    6. Random Academic Cog*

      It’s often 3-5 years between promotions or even raises beyond standard COLA or “merit” for us. Promotions have to be planned at least a year in advance (preferably two). Raises beyond the ones that apply to everyone also have to be in the budget ahead of time. And once you hit the top title in your area, you’re just stuck there. I haven’t had a title change in almost 20 years. Raises, some significant, but no promotion.

    7. fhqwhgads*

      Are you asking about the time from when you raise it/they agree you’re doing the higher level work to when the change is effective? Generally I raised it the quarter before reviews, and it happened when the reviews did, backdated to first of the month. So 3 months at most.
      If you mean how long in the role until they decided I was doing higher level work and bumped me up, I’ve had that happen in a year. That one I wasn’t requesting it, they just did it.

  95. Writer Seeks $$$*

    OK guys, just got a weird idea. I applied for a part-time position I would REALLY like (it comes with benefits!). but even if I don’t get it, I think this question is relevant for future job-hunting: If I got this/a part-time job, would it be realistic/possible/reasonable to ask my current job (where I currently work part-time, 80%) if I could work as a consultant/IC? How could I make this appealing to my current employer? ideally, they’d like me to work full-time, but that’s not possible for me right now.

  96. Extra Anon*

    I had to terminate someone today. It wasn’t my first termination but definitely the hardest. One of the hardest days of my career, period. I cried at the end. Any suggestions/advice on how you move on when you’ve had to make a tough professional decision that you know is the right thing to do but will also have terrible consequences for those impacted?

    1. BellaStella*

      You had all the evidence and did the right thing. Be mind to yourself this weekend and know that things will be ok.

      2. HonorBox*

        This.

        It was a decision you had to make, but a decision that someone forced you to make. While you can feel bad about the consequences for the person who you had to let go, they did something or things that put you in the position. Give yourself time to feel bad, and then take the opportunity over the weekend to do some things that will take your mind away from work.

        1. Extra Anon*

          Thank you to you and BellaStella. My head knows it was the right decision, so hopefully a relaxing weekend will get my emotions on board, too.

    2. Qwerty*

      Find something cozy to do today to take care of yourself and get a good night’s sleep. The distance will help. If you need to cry today, then let yourself.

      Sometimes situations just suck. At the end of the day, if someone is a bad fit they need to go and it is totally ok as a manager to feel sad about it. Hopefully that person will find something better

  97. Conundrum*

    A few weeks ago, I found out that my manager (worst manager I have ever had) will be leaving at the end of the year. I’m thrilled! I’ve been told that they plan to hire a higher-level executive to replace her (absolutely in favor of that) but not what is going to happen with the rest of our department (right now it’s just me). I have had a couple of conversations with the CEO that have left me a little uneasy and I’m a little unsure of how to proceed. Once it was that I was doing/responsible for things I shouldn’t have to be, and yesterday it was that they were aware of how much I have on my plate (pretty much two full-time positions) and that there were administrative things I was doing that I shouldn’t be. But there is no one else to do those things. If my job was divided into two, those things would still stay with me and they are integral to the work that I do. I don’t feel that the executive team really understands the scope of the work I do (and why- some of it is regulatory requirements) and I’m wondering if I should set up a meeting with HR to discuss what the future of our department looks like. They had a recent meeting to discuss staffing across the entire company but my manager chose not to attend because she is leaving at the end of the year. So she wasn’t there to advocate for me or the future department structure. I just feel really uneasy . Should I set up a meeting to chat or should I just let it happen? I really don’t want to rock the boat. Our company isn’t always kind to those that do.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t think HR is the right place to go for this, but I do think you should talk to someone. Maybe your current manager’s manager? If not that person, do you know who was in the recent meeting to discuss staffing? Ask the person from that meeting you have the best relationship with. “Hey, did my role get brought up in the recent staff meeting? I do some work for regulatory requirements, and I want to make sure that doesn’t get lost in the shuffle with [current manager] leaving. Is there someone I could talk to about the full scope of my current job and where all those pieces will best fit in the new structure?”

  98. Resume help-relevant experience 20+ years ago*

    My friend is looking for a job with benefits. Their resume for the past 15 years is pretty rough.

    They would be looking for a job similar to what they did 25-15 years ago but have no recent experience or references to back it up. Are there any resume formats or tips that can help optimize their (fairly crappy) chances of getting this type of job? They are much sharper and better at learning new tech than their resume would lead you to believe.

    For detailed background, they would looking for looking for skilled labor type of jobs. They worked art framing shop, musical instrument repair, screen printer, embroidery machine, engraving machine back in the day and would like to do something similar again. They are very handy and could jump right in with little training. They have done heavy lifting and driving-for-a-full-shift but health issues preclude that now.

    Recent experience is gig work for the past year after caring for an ill relative for a year. Before that they had a labor job with a municipal contractor. Before that, a taxi driver + detailer for the fleet, switching to delivery apps when taxis went under.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      One way to format the resume is like this:

      Name/Contact Info

      Relevant Experience*
      Art Shop Framer, ACME Art Shop, 2008-2011
      *accomplishment
      Screen Printer, Screen Printing ‘R Us, 2005-2011
      *accomplishment

      Other Experience
      Instacart Shopper, 2023-present
      *accomplishment
      Laborer, Mayville Movers, 2015-2022
      *accomplishment

      *There might be a better title for this section. “Skilled labor,” “specialized labor,” or something else. This is just to illustrate how to bring the more relevant experience to the top of the resume, while also showing the more recent work experience.

    2. GigglyPuff*

      For resume formatting, they don’t need to be chronological. When I was first starting out in my profession but had most work experience in retail type roles beyond an internship or two. I’d break out my resume by experience. So at the top I’d have “Relevant/[or Profession] Experience” and then to show other jobs, I’d have “Other Experience” listed after the ones I thought had the most relevant skillset.

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I suppose they could chunk the resume into “relevant experience” and then “other experience”, but the dates are so long ago that I don’t know that it would help. Typically, the advice is to not include stuff from more than 15 (sometimes 10) years ago on your resume, but I don’t know what the advice is for when the relevant experience is super old. Maybe that’s the point: it’s no longer relevant if it was that long ago.

      This feels like the job for a cover letter, i.e. “Although I’ve been working in [whatever] for the last decade, when I saw this opportunity for a Whatever Machine maintenance worker, I knew it would be a chance to return to the type of work I loved early in my career: small machine repair.” Or whatever, something that explains why your friend has had a big gap between the old experience and the current work.

      1. Resume help*

        Yeah this was kind of my thought. Now I just need to work on convincing them that sending a cover letter is a good option similar to walking in and talking to the manager. They just have no modern “real job” application experience and really low confidence despite being a dream hire for any kind of crafty/handy type of job, especially at a small business – they hold themself to very high standards without supervision.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Lead the resume with a “highlights” section that identifies abilities/experience to do the job posted. Include any side gig/hobby type current skills/accomplishments that can support the fact that they have up-to-date crafting/skilled trades abilities in the correct realm. Create a side gig sort of entry in the resume if possible, either as employment or as an “other experience” section.
      Describe the less relevant jobs with as few details as possible. Focus on the good stuff.

    5. spcepickle*

      Write a strong cover letter. This is what cover letters are for – telling your story. They don’t need to go into detail about the ill relative. But they should come up with a way to show how what they have been doing has softskills that will carry back over into the skilled labor.

      I would format the cover letter like this:
      Open by talking about what excites them about the job opportunity. Be as a specific as possible. Move into talking about how their “long ago” experience fits. Then talk about what they have been doing recently, pull a few skills in – taxi drivers are good at talking to people which will help when understanding what a client wants in the skilled labor job. End with why they are excited to move back into skilled labor. If there is a good example how they used tech to improve a job, include that as well.

      Also skilled technical people are in HOT demand right now – I hire for a semi- skilled labor job and last round we hired 6 of the 10 people who applied.

  99. Mouth open Brain off*

    I’ve just had a screening interview on zoom today with an HR rep and the person who would potentially be my manager. I feel like I did an okay job of conveying my strengths, but I slightly flubbed through my response to “What type of communicator are you?” The worst question to flub, my answer felt to me like a non-answer. How can I show in my thank you that I am a great communicator without drawing direct attention to a flub I noticed, that they may not have, or may not be weight strongly against my other qualifications.

  100. azvlr*

    I’m an instructional designer and I’m working on a course that has a lesson on resumes and cover letters. I don’t have much control over the content and don’t have time to vet it all to recommend keeping it. My guess is that most of it is ok, but I’ve read too many horror stories on here to be 100% confident of that.

    My mini-rebellion today was to sneak AAM at the end of the list of resources. Hopefully students will become AAM fans.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I always tell kids about AAM when they come into work for Take Your Kid to Work Day because I want them equipped!

      Can I ask how you got into instructional design? I do a lot of training and documentation writing but am trying to figure out other directions I could take that kind of work in whatever my next role is.

  101. reject187*

    How do you deal with clients complaining to you about your coworkers and saying you do a much better job? I’m a teacher and it’s always awkward when a parent says they’re excited their student is in my class because Mx so-and-so wasn’t a very good teacher or fit for their child. I never want to spread discontentment amongst my students or throw my coworkers under the bus, and I truly believe they’re all doing their best, but what should I say in the immediate aftermath?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I would just pretend I hadn’t heard the digs at my colleagues and jump straight into saying something about their kid, e.g. “I’m excited Billy is in my class too!” or “I’m looking forward to the school year with Olivia too!” Something that validates the kid’s excitement without validating the insults.

      If you try to defend your colleagues, it’s unlikely they’re going to change their mind. “Mr Applebee is actually a really great teacher!” might be what you want to say, but does that accomplish what you need it to in the moment? The parent is, quite poorly, just trying to connect with you about your shared interest: their kid.

      1. reject187*

        Your last sentence really hit the crux of the matter. While they may be upset about the other teacher, what they really want is a good experience this year for their child. Thank you!

    2. GoosieLou*

      When I’ve had similar comments and want to acknowledge the statement without either throwing a colleague under the bus or invalidating their feelings I’ve gone with something like, “we all have different people we resonate with – I’m glad Kiddo is enjoying their experience!”

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      I’d just say something like “thanks. I hope kiddo has a great year” or “thanks. I think this is going to be a really good year” or something like that.

      I wouldn’t engage with the comment about your colleague. It could be a parent for whom everything is the teacher’s fault. One of my brother’s classmates apparently had a mother like that. My mother said, every year this woman would be like “oh, I hope they don’t get such a teacher. My other child had him/her and they never opened a book. My child didn’t even take his books home because they never got any homework.” Eventually, my mother started thinking, “maybe your children aren’t telling you the truth if every teacher they have never gives them any homework or teaches them anything!” Or it might just be a case that their kid didn’t get on with the teacher.

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        At one point my mom (or dad) told me that my test scores decreased during 2nd and 4th grades (relatively large city in Calif, in the ’70s). I suspect that my 1st and 3rd grade teachers were exceptional and kept me challenged, where the other two were average and I was bored.
        Somewhere along the line, I learned that being average was okay, which probably wasn’t the best path in life. (See my comments above about lack of promotions.)
        Parental expectations are a necessary part of student learning.

        1. Fret*

          Ah yes, the “the teacher didn’t do enough” answer to why you failed. Always a favourite with the less capable, less self-aware, and less willing to take responsibility. AKA those who do not earn promotions, because everything is always someone else’s fault.

          Average is fine. Avoidant is a failure.

  102. Ellie*

    I just want to share that I got an urgent work email letting me know that my workplace is full of bees! (Literal bees, we have a swarm that decided to make their home by one of the building doors.)

    1. Procedure Publisher*

      And they are getting inside whenever the door is open? Geez, that sounds absolutely horrible. Hopefully, things can be addressed before it becomes worse.

      1. Ellie*

        I believe they have all been successfully relocated by our friendly neighborhood beekeepers who came to the rescue.

    2. Mimmy*

      Being not allergic but absolutely terrified of bees (as in flailing like a loon), I would be hiding in my office until they are removed!! So glad they were relocated quickly!

  103. Procedure Publisher*

    Last Friday, I had an interview for a position through teams. My cat caused the interview to get interrupted by pressing on the power button of my laptop. Interviewer was very understanding and I felt like I did well. It might be awhile before I hear anything but I know they will make a decision in 30 days. They have a few more candidates to interview since I was the first to be interviewed.

    1. Sister George Michael*

      Cat needs to learn who is paying for the toys and food! If this had happened to someone I was interviewing, it wouldn’t be a problem (although I would have thought “I was hoping for a dog person).

  104. Invisible fish*

    Suggestions for best courses or training to help a teacher move into being an editor of any sort for anyone, as long as she makes enough money to keep paying the bills? (Yes, it’s getting time to transition.)

  105. Tulane*

    Does anyone have any tips on how to recover from a toxic job? I stayed longer than I should have (over 5 years) and eventually left a few months ago without another position lined up. The position I left was in senior management at a dysfunctional non-profit and the years of undermining, gaslighting and ethical issues (I’m the ethics person!) really did a number on me. I’ve had a few interviews since and none have gone particularly well, and to be honest the thought of going back to a similar position elsewhere makes me feel anxious. I feel like I’ve lost my professional mojo with a side helping of distress thrown in to fill the gap. I have had therapy to help me work through some of the issues but professionally I feel like it’s taken my soul. Any tips on how to recover and get back on track greatly appreciated.

    1. Xarajaz*

      I worked for 7 years for a toxic place with an extreme micromanager (she had to be copied on every email, every one of which she read, and she once complained to me about not putting a space on either side of a hyphen in the subject line of an email). The person who day next to me was a mean girl who liked to stir up drama and gaslight people for fun. I didn’t understand how bad it was until I was gone. I got a job with an extreme…non manager? I don’t know what the opposite of a micromanager is. It’s a lovely company where people are unremittingly pleasant (people who call the help desk are like always nice, I sometimes wonder if they are pod people). After a couple of years they rearranged things so I report to a different person now who is a little more proactive than the original guy. But basically the first six months I sat in a cubicle and started at the computer and did the software equivalent of untangling the biggest yarn knot in existence and almost never talked on the phone and was never in a hurry. If there’s any way to do that, it’s what I recommend. It was really uncomfortable for months, while the stress was unwinding and my expectations were resetting, but it eventually got easier. (It’s been 4 years today.)

  106. New Boss*

    My boss is retiring next month and I have been promoted into his spot. I will be inheriting his secretary Bob – who is terrible at his job. I have personal experience with Bob’s crappy performance and not just speculation. Boss has told Bob to expect changes with new leadership.

    Do I tell Bob explicitly his performance sucks and he needs to improve; using more professional language of course. Or do I pretend I’m not aware of any deficiencies, and just lay out my performance expectations and see if he can meet them? Or do you have another suggestion?

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Or do I pretend I’m not aware of any deficiencies, and just lay out my performance expectations and see if he can meet them?

      I prefer this option; you don’t know why Bob’s historical performance doesn’t meet your standards, and it really doesn’t matter when you get right down to it. What matters is if Bob can perform for you, and the most straightforward way to accomplish that is to set clear expectations and goals and let him do what he can.

      If he pushes back, then you can make the historical case about his deficiencies to him. But if you lead with that, I fear you’re going to start him and yourself off on the wrong foot.

    2. Kitten*

      Bob-this is what my expectations are and what I need you to do. It is different than before and I think you are up to it!

  107. Kerokerokeroppi*

    Howdy!

    Looking some guidance or ideas/suggestions.

    Me and a coworker are working on a project. The idea/concept is simple, but we are facing issues with finding the right software/program/application to use.

    We want to allow any/all staff at our organization to enter in basic data about a group or class that they are hosting/leading. [ example = Llama Fur Combing Class, every Friday at 4 pm, in person or remote, call #### to sign up. ]

    We want to then allow any/all staff to search this database to find a group or class that might be of use to their clients. [ example = search for all Llama classes or search for Alpaca classes. ]

    We want to make it easy and tamperproof with little to no on-going oversight. So the search aspect should not involve scrolling through a list or having to use Ctrl-F.

    Our organization has access to Microsoft Office Suite, but I think that some permissions are either turned off or don’t exist in our version (we are government)

    *Any ideas?
    *Is there already a program or app that does this?

    Thanks!

    =====

    Our first idea was to use MS Forms to collect the class/group information, sync the responses to an MS Excel worksheet, and create a search page to look up things in Excel. But for some reason, we cannot open up Excel inside of MS Forms (the button is not there), so there is no real time synchronization.

    1. Formerly in HR*

      A SharePoint site, where you have the + to add new entries and on the Add Form screen you define what fields you want to have people populate and which of those should be mandatory and which not. Once data is saved it allows searching/filtering.

  108. DutchessofDork*

    So earlier this year I was fired with cause (which was complete shenanigans but not my question here). I filed a grievance with my union, and eventually we came to an agreement that I, in fact, resigned and was given an employment letter stating that I worked from date to date and my job title and a phone number to call with questions. And all they will say is what is stated in the letter. Should I be worried as to how future employers will view this?

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      You’re basically going to have two scenarios: either 1, they’re looking for the Scarlet F and can’t be sure you don’t have it, or 2, they’re more concerned with whether or not you’re reliable and can do the job. Each job application is going to be a roll of the die which kind of hiring manager you’re dealing with.

      Is the job not so material to your work history that you can omit it? That would be the easier way to avoid 1. If you need it for work history, tell them you resigned (as that’s the agreement) and let them call on the letter to verify.

      If you get 2, it’s moot.

      My condolences. Shenanigans is absolutely the right word for the situation. I wouldn’t worry, though; worry isn’t going to fix any of it.

    2. Garden Pidgeons*

      My employer does this for all employees, however they left – no qualitative references, just a confirmation of dates and job title. You can get personal references from old managers but they must be clear that they’re not speaking on behalf of the company.

      So future employers may not read much into this – it may just appear that the company is trying to avoid any risk of reference-related lawsuits.

    3. kalli*

      You should be fine – a statement of service is very normal and even if the most someone gets out of it is that you’re not making up a job on your resume, it’s better than explaining a gap.

  109. EA*

    In late this week, but I’m so stuck on what to do about this situation and maybe someone else can relate!

    Basically, my coworker is just… not really doing his job anymore. If it matters, we used to be in office and now are fully WFH. I have to remind him multiple times to do even the most simple tasks, many of which are time sensitive. He doesn’t respond to emails, a bit more responsive to chats. He’ll just not respond to external communications and leave people hanging. Never takes initiative, makes mistakes… it’s just a lot at this point. Another coworker and I were talking about when enough is enough because we get so frustrated with him. I’ve always felt like we’ve been good work friends and I know he’s had some family health issues (but honestly, so have all of us the past few years!), but at what point do I say to our boss that it’s getting ridiculous? Our boss knows about his performance issues but isn’t very good at managing.

    1. Garden Pidgeons*

      I think you are definitely at (/well past) the point where it’s fair to lay out to your boss the impact *on you* – it’s not clear whether “I have to remind him multiple times to do even the most simple tasks” is you taking responsibility for his job as well as yours, or you not getting what you need from him, but either is worth raising. But you might not have standing to say “it’s getting ridiculous” from a business point of view – that feels like your manager’s call.

    2. Kathenus*

      Additionally to what Garden Pidgeons advises, make sure that you and your coworker are not picking up the slack. Let him fail, let parts of a joint project that he doesn’t do fail and let your boss know that you both did your part, etc. If you help mitigate the impact, lazy coworker and boss will have less reason to change or fix anything.

  110. Jaya*

    So I’ve done two interviews this week, one virtual and one in-person. The virtual one turned me down the next day despite a great rapport with the interviewer. For the in-person one, which was a round two, I won’t find out until mid-September at earliest. And methinks I will be arguing with unemployment. For one place that has flexible hours, I’d need to assemble and send a portfolio of sewing projects and hope that we are a good fit, and I have some freelance work coming up.
    Time’s basically up. I’ve sent in an application for substitute teacher jobs and hoping something comes up but I don’t know why only rejections are the ones that meet established timelines, and that seems to be twenty percent of the time. I’ve been told retail hires fast but I’ve applied to a few retail positions online and it seems my master’s degree works against me. Does one apply in-person for those positions?

    1. Xarajaz*

      Oof I remember the last time I was looking for a job I applied to hundreds of jobs and only got one formal interview, from a job I didn’t apply to – the recruiter saw I had recently updated my LinkedIn and called me to see if I would consider the job. It was 2020 and I was applying to Business Analyst positions, so it’s maybe a bit different, but still. I rarely got anything other than the automated “thanks for applying”. I got a very very few rejections, often months after I applied, many after I found the job from the recruiter.

      The last time I applied to retail jobs (2012) they were asking if I was on TANF, so I got the impression they were screening for people they could get tax credits for hiring or something and that I likely wouldn’t hear anything. I did not have a degree then and did not ever hear anything from any of them. I know when I worked for a cell phone store we would always tell people to go apply online when they came in, for what it’s worth.

  111. Valancy Stirling*

    I’m a teacher who recently took on ten classes pretty much at once. I’m working at different schools mornings, afternoons, and nights. I’m struggling to organize all the lesson planning and grading with such a schedule. Does anyone have any tips?

    1. Goddess47*

      Whoa! That’s a lot…

      Some thoughts…

      –for your lesson plans, especially if any of the classes are new and you do not have pre-made lessons and materials handed to you, stick closely to the student learning outcomes. What skills/techniques/information/etc are the students required to know/be able to demonstrate at the end of the year. Yes, the frilly stuff is fun but you don’t have time to do that.

      –spread out your due dates. Don’t make everything due at the same time because then you’ll have a never-ending mountain of things to grade.

      –get some ‘bankers folders’ — the kind that expand but have an elastic band to hold them close. All assignments from one class go into that class’s folder, so you can keep track of them. (worse case, buy a couple of boxes of oversize baggies, the gallon bags are too small, which will serve the same purpose). Buy at least 2 per class, for incoming and outgoing works.

      –make as many homework assignments pass/fail so that you don’t have to do more than check that the students did it (then do a semi-random stress relief of ‘free day, no one has to turn in anything’ — for your sake as much as anything)

      –depending on the grade level, tell your students (parents, if appropriate) that all email contacts have to start with the student’s full name, the class, and the location so that you can sort them out. Emails without that information will be handled when you have time (i.e. never)

      –you have too many people to manage well. Set up ‘office hours’ where you can be contacted. Use Zoom or Google Meet and that you’ll be available first-come, first-served on a regular time/day. Do not do this every week… every other week at most. Once a month. But you can route anything to that ‘come online’ session.

      –say ‘no’ to everything you possibly. Extensions, favors, make-ups, projects… you don’t have time.

      –Make your grading so that students have complete 10 things out of 12, or drop the lowest test grade, or however you can manage to not have to give make up tests or extensions.

      Good luck!

  112. Mentee*

    my organisation has set up an internal mentoring program. Im new and a little bit lost in terms of knowing the org, future career prospects etc so I signed up. I’ve been allocated my mentor and am meeting him next week for the first time and I’m pretty nervous!!! I would welcome any tips from mentors, mentees or anyone with something to share!

  113. Reference Question*

    Happy Friday! I hope I’m not too late to get people’s thoughts on this situation :)

    I used to work at a very small company. The boss there was pretty emotionally unstable. While working there I worked with “Jane” for a few months. I was not her manager but I supervised her work.

    Jane recently quit after an incident with the boss, and she does not want to use the boss as a reference. She asked if I could be a reference for her and I said yes.

    Do you think reference-checkers will ask me why Jane isn’t using the boss as a reference? And if so, what should I say? She’s already quit, so I can’t say she’s trying to keep her job search secret.

    Since Jane and I only worked together for a few months, I’m worried it will be obvious that I’m not the best choice of reference (but the company is so small there are literally no other options!)

    And maybe a more general question… how do you, as a reference, prepare for a reference-check? What questions should I expect to be asked? Is there anything I can do to make sure I do a great job? This is the first time I’m serving as a reference for anyone!

    1. Kay*

      I can’t tell from this if Jane worked there before you did or not. She very well may present you as her supervisor from her last job – unless you are both cryptic about things, I don’t see why another company would question that outright. If they do ask about the length of time and question things you are going to have to read the reference checker well. I might say something like “I can’t imagine her previous supervisor has ever been used as a reference given their track record”, “there is a reason neither of us is currently there” or “I would question the previous supervisor’s ability to act as a professional reference” and try to laugh it off vaguely (this would heavily depend on how that conversation was going).

      Without knowing more about the position I can’t speak to what specifically they might ask, but it is typically along the lines of what their strengths are, any weaknesses, would you hire them again, any scenarios you think they would thrive/not do well in and from there it gets more specific to what qualities they want in the job/industry. Does she need to connect well with clients, be detail organized, know certain programming languages, work well on teams, work well independently, etc?

  115. Grad School*

    I’m considering going to grad school for humanitarianism but I’m just not sure. Has anyone done this or know of anyone who has? Is it a waste if I get the degree and go into the nonprofit sector?

    1. Kitten*

      I’m a 17 year nonprofit ED, 29 years in the field. I’ve worked internationally too.

      I’m going to be brutally honest. Unless you have massive scholarships, I don’t think that degree will give you a return on investment. If you want to really make a difference dedicate a similar amount of time volunteering, interning or networking to get someone to mentor you. Then just get in there and learn the work. If you have great skills, you will build a career. I don’t see that masters helping you in the same way.

      I do see studying a language as being very helpful. Or fundraising, grant writing, project management. But for these a certificate can get you there.

      1. Kitten*

        I’d just hate to see you with $50K in loans stopping you from taking the position you want because you decant get paid enough.it took me 20 years in nonprofit to get a 6 figure salary with an excellent fundraising history.

    2. EA*

      Getting a job in a country other than your home country will help a lot more in breaking into thw humanitarian / international development sector.

      I do not think a general humanitarianism degree will help as much as a degree in a technical area – for example, data analysis and monitoring and evaluation is a huge area where people with strong technical skills are needed. Look at job postings of jobs that you would like to have in 5 years and see what degrees and experience are listed.

  116. Anon for this*

    I messed up at work this week and would love advice.
    I work at a University in Australia on a small team that connects staff in our area with staff on central teams. This week we had a deadline to submit all our information about timetabling for next year and I wasn’t ready and ended up staying back till after 7:30PM to complete it. I don’t care about that, but my colleague also stayed back and helped me, and I feel awful about that.
    I had been working on it, but the deadline kept getting extended so I would drop it for days and concentrate on my other work. I have definitely learnt lessons from this and will do my best not to be in this position again, and certainly not to put others in this position, but I don’t know what to do now.
    My colleague and I both usually work till 5PM but our boss leaves at 4PM (he starts earlier). Before he left, he asked if we were going to meet the deadline and I assured him that we would; he specifically asked if we would get to leave on time and I said yes. I honestly thought we would, but we didn’t.
    This work was assigned to both of us, but even though my colleague is more senior, I was in the lead, because I’ve done it before and she’s new.
    I don’t want to make things worse by being dishonest, so how do I tell my boss I was wrong, that we did stay back to get it all done?
    I’m feeling so much shame about this. If it was just me, I think I deserve it, but I’m so ashamed at having my colleague have to stay back too.

    1. RagingADHD*

      “Hey, I just wanted to follow up and let you know that unfortunately I underestimated how much there was left to do. We did meet the deadline, but Colleague and I wound up staying later than anticipated. I have looked back at my workflow on this, and am changing X and Y to help ensure it doesn’t happen again.”

      Of course, if there were any surprises or unforeseeable delays, you should mention those and add that you’ll be building in a margin to account for that possibility next time.

      And take your coworker to lunch next week.

    2. Kay*

      To me this seems like the situation could vary from “this is never even going to come up again” to “my boss is going to skewer me” (for disclosure – for me it would not even be a thing). I don’t think feeling shame over this is warranted at all, maybe offer to buy your co-worker coffee or lunch (if I was senior I would order lunch, but since you are junior I would feel weird receiving that as a senior person).

      Unless you think your boss is going to bring this up, I wouldn’t. Not to say I would avoid mentioning it, but I wouldn’t be dwelling on this (again, I don’t have a workplace where this would matter so I understand I’m very much not bothered by this at all). If it did come up, or you think this is something your boss will care about I might go the route of “Hey – just to let you know, we ended up having to log overtime to get that timetable out. I honestly thought it would be done by 5 but it ended up taking longer than expected – that is on me, I apologize, and I won’t let it happen again”.

      I hate to say therapy, but feeling and thinking you are deserving shame over this sounds like an oversized reaction to an “ugh this took way longer than I thought, I’m so sorry co-worker, I owe you one, drinks/dinner on me?” kinda situation. Might I be irritated if I were your co-worker or boss? Sure. But miscalculating the time needed to complete something isn’t good, but it isn’t shame worthy. Take this as a cue to better hit your deadlines, especially if others are depending on you, and work on why you are having these thoughts.

  117. Kay*

    To me this seems like the situation could vary from “this is never even going to come up again” to “my boss is going to skewer me” (for disclosure – for me it would not even be a thing). I don’t think feeling shame over this is warranted at all, maybe offer to buy your co-worker coffee or lunch (if I was senior I would order lunch, but since you are junior I would feel weird receiving that as a senior person).

    Unless you think your boss is going to bring this up, I wouldn’t. Not to say I would avoid mentioning it, but I wouldn’t be dwelling on this (again, I don’t have a workplace where this would matter so I understand I’m very much not bothered by this at all). If it did come up, or you think this is something your boss will care about I might go the route of “Hey – just to let you know, we ended up having to log overtime to get that timetable out. I honestly thought it would be done by 5 but it ended up taking longer than expected – that is on me, I apologize, and I won’t let it happen again”.

    I hate to say therapy, but feeling and thinking you are deserving shame over this sounds like an oversized reaction to an “ugh this took way longer than I thought, I’m so sorry co-worker, I owe you one, drinks/dinner on me?” kinda situation. Might I be irritated if I were your co-worker or boss? Sure. But miscalculating the time needed to complete something isn’t good, but it isn’t shame worthy. Take this as a cue to better hit your deadlines, especially if others are depending on you, and work on why you are having these thoughts.

  118. hoople*

    My manager doesn’t file any emails. We share an inbox. Back when we were both on the same level, we were trained to do inbox zero by our boss (at least, I’m reasonably sure she was).

    It’s getting overwhelming. There’s now a third person in the mix, too, and while I’ve shown them how to do this in the past, they are straight up not doing it either. So it’s all being left to me. I came back from vacation and it was a disaster. I still haven’t caught up on all of it, and we’re missing emails. I can’t afford to dedicate multiple days to tidying up the inbox and leaving my actual tasks to the side.
    I would mind a bit less if it were at all clear what had been handled and what hadn’t. (For example, no, I have no way of knowing you already contacted the person I just emailed by phone—to me, it just looked like an unanswered email.)

    I tried talking to my manager about this last year, and it seems like she thinks it’s just ‘a difference in philosophy.’ I then asked for my own email, and she didn’t want to do that. I then asked if she would like to come up with and implement a new system if she didn’t like this one—inbox zero doesn’t work for everyone—and that went nowhere.

    This was never part of my job description, and it affects the time I can spend doing things that are my actual job. And even though my manager is very understanding when I have questions, it can’t be conducive to focus for me to keep asking her questions. I don’t think it’s a productive use of anyone’s time when it doesn’t take much to file an email once you’re done with it.

    I want to talk to them both about it and explain that it’s overwhelming me. Should I talk to my manager one-on-one first? And how do I do this without it seeming like I’m trying to ‘manage’ her?

    If this doesn’t go anywhere again, I will have to go to upper management about it, because it’s affecting my job satisfaction. Any tips for that?

    1. Annie*

      Start with just your manager, and propose inbox automation (rules, conditional formatting, flags, quick steps, etc) as a possible solution. The recent letter about managing high email volume has some answers as well.

    2. Attractive Nuisance*

      I wonder if your boss and coworker aren’t understanding the actual impact to your work. It might be helpful if you reframe it. The problem isn’t “The inbox isn’t at zero and that’s stressful for me”. The problem is “I don’t understand which emails need a response from me.”

      Even if you and your boss and coworker had separate email addresses, there probably would be plenty of situations where all 3 of you were copied on an email and you would need to figure out who was going to respond (or who had already responded).

      This isn’t an email-inbox problem, it’s a problem of how you track and assign work. Inbox Zero is a great way to do it, but if there are three of you sharing an inbox and two of them don’t like that strategy, you’ll have to figure out something else.

      It might be helpful to ask your boss and coworker how they keep track of which emails need their attention. Do they have a system that works for them? Why don’t you use their system instead of asking them to use yours? (I don’t mean this as a rude question, just as a point to consider in the discussion.)

      1. hoople*

        We have tags for each of our names (For Stephanie, for Tamara, etc.). We also have a follow-up tag. I use these frequently. New colleague is good with using these. My boss sometimes still doesn’t respond to emails with her tag (usually emails addressed directly to her).

        We will have to be careful with automation, but I can see a few use cases for it (newsletters, for example).

        I will ask my boss again about what system she would rather use if not this one, with the add-on of how the two of them are tracking emails and whether a task is complete or not. That’s a great suggestion. (For clarity, it’s not ‘my’ system; it’s just the one my manager and I inherited.) We’ll hopefully be able to see how our various systems are at odds with each other (and also if we’re training the new colleague in opposing ways).

    3. Goddess47*

      Make the “I can’t do my job and manage the emails” the heart of your discussion. Ask your manager how they managed when you were not there.

      If you have the political capital to just go to upper management, do that now and save yourself the anxiety.

      Otherwise. for the painful part. Document. Document. Document. Ask for explicit directions on how to handle the emails, write it down, get your manager to agree that ‘this is how we do it’ and then do it. You are following the process they have told you to follow. Problems that occur are no longer your problem. Emails that are missed are no longer your problem.

      The documentation gives you solid evidence to take to upper management that ‘the handling of this email is hurting the business and someone with authority needs to step in’.

      Good luck!

      1. hoople*

        Thanks, that’s very useful!
        I will speak with her first. To be honest, a part of me wants to go directly to upper management. I got some pushback on a raise recently because I’m ‘not the manager’. (Which I’m not! But I’m stuck doing a lot of management stuff that isn’t my job, and this is another symptom of that.) I did still get a raise, and I also generally like her as a person and don’t want her to get in trouble. But upper management seems not to realize how much I have done.

  119. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

    How do you gracefully leave a job before you are justifiably likely to be fired?
    I have a mental illness that is disrupting my ability to function substantially more than it ever has in the past. I call in frequently and, although I am good at what I do when I manage to be at work, I cannot be relied on to consistently be there right now. We are automatically penalized for calling in sick more than 5 days of the year (regardless of how much PTO we earn), and I am already well beyond that. I have not been in this job long enough to qualify for FMLA.

    1. Anon4this*

      Have you spoken to your boss? Might be a good idea especially if they think you are a good employee when you are there. They might offer you a reference or some time to look for a job before you resign or they may offer you some WFH days.

      I also would recommend seeing your doctor/specialist and see what they can do for you. I would do this now if you’re in the US so you can use your health insurance. Many doctors if you say its an emergency will fit you in as soon as possible.

    2. Kathenus*

      Can you have an honest conversation with them about a plan to transition out? You be honest that you have reasons (how much you do/don’t disclose up to you of course) that have kept you from being able to work consistently, and you understand the impact. That you would like to discuss being able to stay on for up to xx amount of time while you look for something that works with your situation. They may say no, if they want/need someone consistently right now, but since generally hiring/training takes time, they may be happy to have you more part-time temporarily while they go through that process. And if this would work for you, maybe you could propose a more set schedule you think you can handle and commit to?

      I think sometimes admitting that you can’t meet their needs versus waiting/wondering/worrying about being fired can be freeing for both sides. Best of luck.

  120. David Rose*

    Yet another “librarian looking to transition out of the field” post. I have a Masters in Library Science and a Bachelor’s in English, and I’m interested in ANY field that requires either no experience or only requires customer service/data management/personnel management/event planning exp, as long as I can make at least 2600 dollars a month net (my rent is expensive and that’s a little less than what I take home now). I applied as a Starbucks manager and a bank teller for context on how far outside of libraries I’m willing to look. Thanks so much, I’ve had a really shitty week.

    1. Goddess47*

      Then try a temp agency and see if they can help you find at least a temp job that will pay that much… they’ll have access to a lot of different jobs, which you can then try and see what fits you or not.

  121. Jacket*

    I just found myself in a situation I’m not sure how to handle. I was at a work event for a week and unexpectedly needed a rain jacket, which I had forgotten to pack. My manager encouraged me to buy one and expense it back to the company. I bought a jacket. But I’m feeling weird about submitting this on my expense report. It’s not my company’s fault that I forgot to bring a rain jacket to a location where rain is common. On the other hand, I need the money. Is it ethical to expense this? My manager said I could, but it feels weird.

    1. Anon4this*

      Look at the HR policies. Nowhere that I have worked would allow for reimbursement for a rain jacket or clothes unless your luggage is lost for some reason there have been policies for that. But your industry might be different, so read up on the policies?

    2. Kathenus*

      Your manager said you could, so you don’t need to feel bad. If you forget it at the next event and it rains, different story. This is just a human mistake, a seemingly good boss, and a lesson learned. The fact you feel weird is kind of good in that you are admitting to yourself it was your error, that should be enough to stop it from happening again. Don’t punish yourself, just submit the expense and be glad you have a good boss and company.

    3. Goddess47*

      Especially if it was your manager, who will be approving the reimbursement, who told you to do it, go right ahead.

  122. Mashed potato*

    Been applying to jobs hoping to get the post Labor Day hire, since my current one was kinda like that: applied in August, called back in October, first day after Thanksgiving.
    Hard part is my industry isn’t doing well this year so just crossing my fingers atm.

  125. Looking and looking some more*

    What are everyone’s thoughts about applying for a job that you fit all the qualifications for and has a posted pay range (yay!) that is significantly below your asking price (boo!). I’m in a toxic situation now and am willing to provide a discount for the right position but this is akin to a 30% pay cut. This is a position with a local government agency. Is it worth it to see if they would go up on the top of their range or is it a waste of everyone’s time?

    1. Grumpycat*

      I think if they’ve posted a pay range, it’s because they want to be clear about what they are willing to offer. It’s really unlikely they’ll go over the top of the range, especially as it’s a government agency, I’m afraid

      1. Looking and looking some more*

        Yeah, I agree, unfortunately. I just needed someone to say it to me. Thanks, Grumpycat.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Yeah, and they’ll have grades within it that they match people to depending on experience (and in my case with the UK public sector, length of service; when I went temp to perm, they did push me up a stage in their banding because I’d been working there a year, and it was still a penny an hour pay cut, but that was all they could offer and I took it because it would go up with the union pay negotiations every year). Even if you got the job, they probably wouldn’t start you at the top of the grade.

        Sorry, OP.

  126. Rae*

    I’m a contractor with 3 clients that each have multiple individuals that hire me. Client 2 has 1 person that I have decided I can’t work with again. I’m waiting for my payment and reimbursements on the last file to come through but then I’d love some scripts on telling the person directly, but also the owner of client 2 that I won’t be working with him anymore. There are other people at client 2 that I hope to keep working with. The person that I’m firing (for lack of a better term – really we’re just not a good fit) is not the owner of client 2, and the owner knows that there have been repeated struggles.

Comments are closed.