updates: the racist comment, the late-paying client, and more

by Alison Green on August 29, 2024

Here are three updates from past letter-writers.

1. Employee made a racist comment to her office-mate

Thank you for answering my question! I already have an update.

Apparently when Anne and Leah’s manager took the issue to HR, they discussed a plan to address it instead of just not doing anything until the following week. (Manager took the issue to HR a couple of days after the incident, at the end of the day. And our HR person was about to be off for the rest of the week.)

This manager called Anne and Leah in for a meeting. Shortly after the meeting, Anne left and the manager informed us that Anne resigned. I don’t know any other details, but I do know that the tension in the office has been palpable this week due to this incident. And Leah’s entire demeanor has changed and she is visibly more relaxed.

And they already have interviews scheduled today for Anne’s replacement.

2. Freelance agency keeps paying me late, but they give me a lot of work (#5 at the link; first update)

I was the freelancer who parted ways with a particularly late-paying company. While working there, I had been friendly with a colleague, and had done some freelance work for them outside the agency, as well as help them eventually go freelance themselves. They went on to become a design director at another agency, and asked me to come and help them set up the design department and a newly acquired client. I loved the agency and people so much that I took a permanent role as a design lead a few months later, and now manage a small team of designers! I’m really happy because I feel supported and like I can bring skills like organising business structure and processes to the table (which I secretly LOVE). It’s been a great opportunity to step up to a leadership role and they’re providing us with management training too.

I guess the takeaway is that you never know when opportunities will present themselves, and how even a ‘bad’ situation can have silver linings!

3. Interviewer kept telling me he liked my smile (#2 at the link)

Seeing all the updates reminded me that I’m overdue to send in one for the interviewer who kept saying he liked my smile.

I waited about 36 hours and said that I needed to withdraw from the hiring process due to another great opportunity. I did not take the job. I have no regrets about not taking the job. I also don’t regret not making a stink about it–I don’t feel it was my responsibility to help him grow.

I’m doing great in my new job (got promoted as an internal candidate from where I was when I was applying and with it came a bunch more exciting duties – -I hire people now, and thanks to your blog I’m getting a reputation as a really good talent spotter).

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{ 74 comments }

{ 74 comments… read them below }

  1. Pick a Duck*

    I was glad to see the update for #1! I’m 58 years old and not even my mother used that term, so I don’t know what “era” they thought she was from!

    1. Jiminy Cricket*

      Exactly! “Oh, they come from another era” is just a way to keep moving the goalposts. No matter how old we are, we all live in this era. And we’ve all had just as long to learn, change, and grow.

      1. It’s A Butternut Squash*

        Yuppp and saying “we’re only going to accept racism if it was considered acceptable in the past” is a great way to say you’re accepting any level of racism.

      2. Sharpie*

        If they come from another era, where’s their time machine? Because surely we all come from this era, we all live here now!

        1. Observer*

          LOL!

          I agree. Whenever I hear this about someone, my internal snarky response is “Do you really think she showed up from a time machine?”

        1. Zombeyonce*

          Even if they were, they lived through the eras changing and evolving language. It drives me crazy when people act like old folks have been oblivious to any social change for the last 50 years.

          1. Deejay*

            In the Highlander films and TV series, Immortals have lived for hundreds if not thousands of years. They don’t act old-fashioned. They just act like ordinary people who sometimes let slip that they’re very knowledgeable about history.

            Until they whip out their swords, of course.

      4. MigraineMonth*

        If it was said in a past era, I’ll consider it in the context of that era (e.g. the name of the NAACP).

        If someone says it today, though, the era is today. We aren’t fossilized representations of our childhoods.

    2. Alan*

      I remember my grandparents saying that sort of stuff 50 years ago, so there’s your era: people born around 1890-1900. Even 50 years ago it was recognized as inappropriate.

      1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        Yep, I’m 53 and my mom just turned 75, and neither of us would EVER use that word to describe a POC. I do remember my grandparents sometimes using it and me or my parents correcting them, but like you said, they were all born prior to 1920.

        1. Bear in the Sky*

          My grandparents were all born in the 1910s, and I never heard any of them use that term. Even though they were not only children but also adults in an era when it was the norm. Living in Jim Crow states, too.

          My parents never used it either, at least not during my lifetime.

    3. Observer*

      I don’t know what “era” they thought she was from

      It’s doesn’t matter. And I think it’s less than helpful to focus on that. This kind of thing comes up a lot. And the bottom line is that even if someone IS *genuinely* from a place or *actually* grew up in time or place where X language was considered acceptable, they still cannot do / say that *here and now*.

      The other thing is that “Oh they grew up in an era / culture where this was acceptable” is almost always excuse making for people who absolutely should know better by people who either don’t want to deal with the issue or are trying to minimize the issue.

      So while we both vehemently agree on how inappropriate she *and* the manager were being, I think that it’s useful to not even get into discussion of whether it’s actually the case that X (in this case, using “those colored people”) was ever acceptable. Because it’s not acceptable NOW, and that’s what matters.

    4. The Rafters*

      My grandmother died in 2022. She was just shy of 106 and had all of her marbles to the end. *She* never spoke like that!

    5. Justin*

      I mean, the fact that there were white abolitionists in the 18th century should put a lie to that nonsense, ya know? There have always been people who knew racism was wrong.

    6. Artemesia*

      It was a great original answer from Alison — I am frigging 80 and I came of age during the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s. There is no one working today who was coming up when ‘colored folks’ was the norm. And if she had apologized and not been defensive it would also have made the difference here. (and she will now be dining out whining about how ‘woke’ cost her her job). Really irritating that anyone would expect a co-worker to put up with this.

    7. Dancing Otter*

      The preferred term to use when referring to POC has changed several times over my lifetime. Doesn’t excuse my using something that was already considered offensive when I was in kindergarten.
      I find the easiest approach is to call people by name.

      1. Deejay*

        Black British people often speak of their frustration at being referred to as African-American despite carefully explaining why it’s inaccurate in their case.

        Some Americans have defended this behaviour by saying “It’s the only term considered acceptable in the US. If they use anything else they could get fired by their idiot bosses even if the person on the receiving end insists it’s the term they want used”.

        Fine. So when a black British (or African or anything other than American) person asks you not to call them African-American, reply that you’ve taken on board what they’re saying and JUST DON’T USE THAT TERM. Even if it means avoiding mentioning their ethnicity at all.

    8. Boof*

      As with all things where people claim they didn’t mean offense; if so, then they’ll apologize and be horrified/never do it again once informed, not double down! Sounds like Anne doubled down; glad she’s out the door!

    9. amoeba*

      Apart from everything else – the term wasn’t the only problem, her remark would’ve been racist in any case! “Ah, those PoC” would still be bad, even though PoC in itself isn’t offensive. The word just makes it that much worse, but it’s far from the only (or main?) problem.

    10. Ann O'Nemity*

      I was curious about the timeline for the term. Apparently it hit peak usage in the 1970s, and by the late 80s it was considered a racial slur. That’s 30+ years ago. And yet we still have Annes and freaking U.S. Congressmen using it. (Congressman Eli Crane, July 2023.)

    11. Maggie*

      My grandmother is 89. so she is “from that era.” and she knows that it’s not acceptable. Unless you’ve been living in a bunker for the past 70 years, it should be pretty clear that acceptable terms for PoC have changed.

    1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

      100%. I worked at a place where it was nearly impossible to get fired, and it was as much of a dysfunctional mess that you can imagine. The one exception in my 5 year tenure was when an older employee in our collections department was reported for saying to a Hispanic customer “I know you don’t know any better, given where you’re from, but here in America we pay our bills when they’re due.” Her desk was cleaned out by HR by the end of the day.

      1. Observer*

        Wow!

        But this is the kind of thing I was thinking about when I commented on the original post that even if the company doesn’t care about someone being problematic in the office, it’s putting the company at risk, since who knows what they would say to a customer.

        You would think people would know better!

        1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

          I just about fell off my chair when I found out what she said. She was not a particularly nice person in general, and the office was almost entirely white people, but still you would think someone in a customer facing role would have a little more of a filter.

      3. MigraineMonth*

        Slightly off topic, but that woman got it backwards. Paying bills in full when they’re due is un-American behavior (and one of the reasons that many first- and second-generation immigrants have little or no credit history).

        Here in America we borrow money. If you don’t, it will be very difficult to rent an apartment, buy a car, buy a house, or even get certain jobs.

    3. LoraC*

      I’m more on the side of “You get exactly 1 more chance and this will never happen again, ever.” and that’s it.

      I fall on the side that maybe they didn’t have the same education background, so they get one chance to correct it. Like it might be a case similar to Tyla’s statement where she’s from South Africa where “colored” is still used, but they need to know it is not used in the US.

      1. toolegittoresign*

        I don’t know — I would defer to whether Leah would truly feel comfortable working with Anne going forward. I would think it would be terribly hard to feel 100% comfortable around Anne, even with an apology, because I know I would feel “Anne is racist but now just knows she can’t say racist things at work.”

      2. Observer*

        That only works for people who are literally just off the boat / airplane. Anyone who has been in the workforce in the US for decades, as Ann was, simply cannot have that kind of excuse.

        And given her response to being called out in the moment, she has been GIVEN that one chance and blew it. She was told straight out that it’s highly offensive and doubled down. I’d be willing to bet that when she was called into HR, she refused to commit to changing. Again, given what her manager said, I’d be willing to bet that there was some attempt to educate her, and the refused. But even if not, her refusal to apologize says everything that anyone needs to know.

        1. Ann O'Nemity*

          “Just off the boat” (ie “fresh off the boat”) is a loaded term and often used as a slur, fyi. Not the best phrase to use, especially in a discussion about derogatory terms.

      3. MigraineMonth*

        In my opinion, if there’s reason to think the person genuinely doesn’t know and they respond to the correction with contrition and a promise to do better and they follow through, then it’s not discipline-worthy.

        There are, unfortunately, a lot of slurs that are still commonly used where many people don’t know the origin/meaning. When we do learn that something we said is racist or similar, remember: 1) Apologize; 2) Thank the person for letting you know; 3) Learn more (NOT by asking someone from a racial minority).

  3. Cookie Monster*

    #3 – that’s awesome that you trusted your gut and withdrew your candidacy! So glad it worked out for you.

    1. Artemesia*

      And great she got a good job. It really fries me that women have to forego what should be a good opportunity to avoid creepsters. If he had said it once, it would have been awkward but something you could overlook — 3. THREE times — creepy guy.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        And he says it *every* time in order to hire the the women who feel like they can’t push back. It’s a test.

    2. Festively Dressed Earl*

      Yes, congratulations! Growing professionally > having to practice the smile from that horror movie just in case another dude fixates on your smile instead of your qualifications.

      1. Say Cheeeese*

        Oh I love this! I’m on the presentable-but-not-striking end of conventionally attractive, but do have a great smile which people sometimes note. I also have a large mouth which I could choose to stretch into a grotesquely exaggerated version. If I ever feel like I’m being smarmed, I’ll definitely try it.

  4. Freelance Bass*

    I once worked at a job where the only positive feedback I received from the big boss was about my smile and my hair. Unsurprisingly, there were a ton of other issues within the company! LW3 was smart to see the signs and run!

  5. It’s A Butternut Squash*

    The idea that men are trying to “put me at ease” by telling me I’m pretty makes me want to barf so hard. Why do so many straight men seem to think being creeped on by them in the work place is an honor? I’ll never understand it. But v glad it all worked o it for you OP3!

    2. Paint N Drip*

      Ah, you are sexually appealing and thus possibly valuable. Basic math!
      I’m actually so grateful when these buffoons do their buffoonery so blatantly

      1. Worldwalker*

        “You have value to most important person, me!”

        Yeah, that’s a big red flag. That’s something who sees the value of others solely in relation to himself and thinks they do too! He thinks praising an attribute that he values for personal reasons (as a desired sexual partner) will please a woman because of course everyone wants to be desired by him. *gag*

        All else aside, this is also a person who will want you to destroy your work/life balance because it’s important to him. Refuse to give you a raise because it isn’t important to him (although his bonus is, of course). Etc. Not someone you want to work for.

    3. It Ain't Me Babe*

      You should smile more!

      j/k

      Or my favorite, “Don’t you ever smile?” My answer is always “Nope”.

    4. Pandas*

      Yeah, men commenting on my appearance out of nowhere always moves them up a level from wherever they were on my Should I avoid being alone with this guy? threat assessment scale. Not relaxing.

      1. Deejay*

        “That’s a nice perfume. What is it?”
        “Pesticide. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to be working”.

        “Where have you been all my life?”
        “Hiding from people like you”.

  6. Paint N Drip*

    #1 glad for Leah, it seems like she’s a good officemate and I wish her a stupendous new coworker

  7. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    I’m glad how #1 worked out. Anne was clearly told she can’t say that anymore and chose to quit rather than change. Which tells you a lot about her real opinion.

    As for everyone else feeling tense, maybe they should consider the circumstances. You can’t be racist at work is a pretty low bar, if you are worried about it, that says something about you, not the company.

    1. Turquoisecow*

      Yeah I’m sure HR took her aside and said “you might not have known this* but that phrasing is really racist. If you apologize and learn from this we can work around it,”

      And she responded by refusing to back down or apologize and they fired her.

      * giving her the extreme benefit of the doubt here which I would not have done but I would not be surprised if HR did do in the guise of fairness or letting both sides tell their story.

  9. Madame Desmortes*

    Three fantastic updates! Thanks to all three LWs for updating. I’m pleased for all of you and definitely for Leah.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Seconding this! Love the combination of update on a very recent letter plus updates on letters from a few years ago, and glad that they are all positive updates!

  10. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

    Glad to see the outcome for #1. It does have me wondering how Anne is retelling this story to her social circle. Most of us, when we share our experiences, spin them a bit to make our actions seem more justified, reasonable, and correct. It just has me reflecting on how, if you only ever talk to Annes and get their perspectives on events like this, it can be so easy to get a skewed vision of what it’s like in the modern workplace.

    That’s neither here nor there, really. Just thinking out loud.

    1. Observer*

      I think you have a point. But even if she spins it as people being “hypersensitive” etc. most people will not take away the lesson that “this is really ok.” At minimum, someone hearing the story will take away the idea that “you need to be careful at work, rightly or wrongly.”

      1. Expelliarmus*

        In theory, yes, but per the political landscape here in the US, that doesn’t necessarily translate to what happens in practice.

        1. Observer*

          In my experience it generally does. Of course it can be phrased a lot more offensively and as a complaint about how all these woke people are so hypersensitive and decent people have a hard time keeping a job without their first amendment being trampled on, blah blah blah.

          But they know they can be fired, and in most cases they will choose to keep quiet rather than lose their jobs, as resentful as they might be.

    2. Artemesia*

      It will be all about ‘woke’ and how decent white people are abused by these weird new standards.

  11. Justin*

    As a Black person who has experienced racial slurs at work (not from colleagues but the public), all I ever ask is that there is action taken. I unfortunately can’t expect it never to occur.

    And they took action at that job, and I’m glad they took action in this situation too.

  12. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

    Has anyone else read “You’ll Never Believe What Happened to Lacey?” As a mediocre, middle-aged, white man it is both hilarious and disturbing. It is absolutely chock full of “Annes” saying things like that and worse. I can’t decide if the audiobook or the non-audio book is better. The former is read by the authors, the latter has fun pictures!

    1. Festively Dressed Earl*

      I read the follow-up first, “The World Record Book of Racist Stories,” and now “You’ll Never Believe What Happened to Lacey” is on my to-read list as well. Amber and Lacey have a gift for saying what I wish I’d had the wit to say in the moment and for making me feel less crazy/alone.

  13. Kara*

    Update #1 – It sounds like Anne doubled and tripled down on “how dare you call me racist” or something of that nature instead of accepting that she said something offensive. I’m glad the company handled it and I’m glad Leah is in a place where she can (at least in this instance) know that people have her back.

  14. Festively Dressed Earl*

    I’m still betting that this wasn’t the first time Anne said something casually racist. Leah must feel like she just took off a 50 lb backpack. Office tension over Anne’s departure doesn’t bode well, though – are there more coworkers who cling to racist terms/behaviors harboring resentment and waiting to take this out on Leah or other POC employees?

    1. LP #1*

      Clarification: There WAS tension in the office. The tension left when Anne left. When you are not management or HR there’s really only so much you can do.

  15. RagingADHD*

    #1 goes to show that just because you didn’t immediately get an loud all-staff announcement about how an HR matter is being handled, doesn’t mean it isn’t being handled.

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