coworker scrolls on her phone in meetings, employee freezes out women who reject him, and more

by Alison Green on September 16, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Can I tell my coworker to stop scrolling on her phone in meetings?

I’m writing to ask how to handle a coworker who is constantly texting in meetings — virtual, in-person, the works. She doesn’t try to hide her phone and is often scrolling in plain view while other teammates are talking, and it’s incredibly frustrating and disrespectful. She is a mom, and I’ve worked with plenty of parents who want to be on call for their kids or with daycare and are on their phones more than I am, but it’s gotten to the point where it’s most meetings and she just appears to be clicking around on whatever sites suit her fancy. There must be a line, right?

I want to give her some feedback collegially, even a “hey, we all text in meetings sometimes but you may want to make it more subtle!” tone, but I also want to convey that it’s pretty rude to openly tune out of meetings and into her phone at will. Our “supervisor” is the de facto head of our small nonprofit and does very little team management, and doesn’t have the best relationship with this coworker, so I don’t totally trust her to deliver the feedback and we don’t have an HR department at the moment so if it’s going to come from someone, it’s likely me. Any thoughts?

If you want to give you feedback primarily because you find it rude, I wouldn’t. It’s not your place as a peer, and your manager apparently doesn’t feel strongly enough about it to say anything herself. If you wanted to frame it more as “just a heads-up, Jane won’t say anything until she’s really fed up but you’re likely to hear at some point that you’re on your phone too much in meetings,” I’d advise you differently … but that doesn’t sound like the situation.

That said, if you’re ever the one running the meeting, you would have the standing to call it out in that particular meeting — as in, “Jane, do you need a minute to handle that? I want to make sure we’re all engaged in this topic.”

Otherwise, though, you’ve got to let it go. You’re right that it’s rude if this is a small meeting. It’s just not yours to handle.

2. Coworker ices out women who reject him romantically

We have a male coworker, Kevin, who has asked out almost every woman (myself included) in our workplace. When he is rejected, he ices them out and refuses to acknowledge their existence at work. This is makes all the women uncomfortable, and is overall just very immature and unprofessional of him.

I reported Kevin to HR and got several other women to come forward as well. HR gave him a reminder of workplace expectations, but won’t do anything more because by ignoring us, he is technically not harassing us anymore. I want him gone so that this doesn’t happen to anyone else. I have already seen him sitting and talking with the new female hires. Is there anything I can do to protect my unsuspecting female coworkers?

Your HR sucks. Kevin is “technically not harassing” you anymore? Harassment isn’t just unwelcome advances; it’s also penalizing people for rejecting those advances. Kevin is in the penalizing phase now, and it’s ridiculous that your HR refuses to acknowledge that. If he’s refusing to interact with you in normal, professional ways — and especially if it’s interfering with your ability to do your job — that falls under the harassment umbrella. Maybe a group of you could have a lawyer point that out to your company.

As for what you can say to new, unsuspecting colleagues, you can tell them up-front what to expect. For example: “Just a heads-up, Kevin is friendly to every female new hire, then asks them out. If he’s rejected, he ices them out and refuses to acknowledge their existence after that. Several of us have gone to HR about it, with no change. It’s been very uncomfortable for some of us and we wish someone had warned us.” This is how women have navigated workplaces that refuse to handle creepy men for eons, and unfortunately your workplace doesn’t sound like it will be an exception.

3. Coworker’s constant sniffling is driving me mad

This is a fairly low-stakes question, but I have a migraine today and my capacity for dealing with it is extra low.

My coworker never stops sniffling. It’s constant, like every few seconds. She’s been here a little over a year, and it’s never stopped. I’ve offered her tissues, but she said she doesn’t need them. She claims it’s because it’s so cold in the office, but even now, when it’s not cold and she’s in short sleeves with an unused blanket sitting on the back of her chair, she’s sniffling every couple of seconds.

I usually put in headphones and listen to music, but there are times, like today, when it’s otherwise quiet in the office and I’d just prefer not to listen to music. I also have to answer phones, so I have to keep the music low.

I’m not sure if my annoyance with this is exacerbated by how frustrating she is in other ways, but I genuinely think this would be driving me crazy anyway.

Am I allowed to ask her to figure out a cure for her non-stop sniffling? Is that even possible? Once in the past I literally chose to take half a day off because I couldn’t deal with it, and I’m close to reaching that breaking point again today.

It’s very unlikely that she’s sniffling for the hell of it. Assume if there was an easy cure she would have already found it, and this is just a health condition (like chronic allergies) that she’s stuck dealing with.

That doesn’t really solve it for you, I realize, but it’s likely as unsolvable for her as it for you. And  sometimes reframing it in your head to assume that — instead of internally screaming “WHY DON’T YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT?” — can make it more bearable.

4. Wording when communicating expectations to an employee

Someone recently said to me that when you are communicating expectations to an employee, you should phrase it as, “Company Name needs you to…” or “Company Name expects you to…” rather than “I need you to…” or “I expect you to…” because it “softens the message.” What do you think?

That’s an extremely weird formulation and would be out of sync with the culture in most American workplaces. I also can’t see how it softens the message! It does the opposite; it makes the message sound much stiffer and more formal.

For that matter, I wouldn’t use “I expect you to” in most situations either. “We need you to,” “I need you to,” “Could you,” “Would you,” and “I’d like you to” are more typical.

5. How do I explain why I’m looking for a new job when I love my current one?

How do I explain why I’m looking for a new job when I love the one I have?

I work on a great team for a troubled company. I’ve been here nine years, but in the last few years we’ve had multiple layoffs and haven’t had raises and I don’t see that changing next year.

I’ve stayed this long because the job itself is good, the frozen salary is still okay for now, and my colleagues are great. But the financial writing is on the wall, and I’m thinking of trying to get ahead of trouble by finding a new job now.

None of the plausible lies are really applicable to me — I’m not seeking advancement, a different type of role, a different size team, a new industry, or anything like that. I just want to do what I do for a company that’s not going to crash and burn or lay me off in a year.

Should I just politely fib and cite some defining characteristic of the company I’m interviewing with as something I’m looking forward to? I’m a terrible liar.

It’s fine to say, “I love what I do, but the company has had some financial struggles and I’m looking for something more stable.” Then immediately follow that up with what interested you about the job you’re applying for (so it’s not just “I ned to get out” but also includes an expression of interest in the new job specifically).

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{ 477 comments }

{ 477 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Daria grace*

    #4, I would find regular use of that wording very weird and would start to wonder if my manager was actually doing any thinking about the role and making management decisions themselves or was just handing down decisions from the higher ups.

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    1. Saturday*

      I wonder if the advice was to use this wording or if it was more like, “tie expectations to larger company goals instead of making them sound like personal preferences”… just a thought. I agree these phrases would sound very odd.

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      1. Allonge*

        Yes, I am also wondering if there is a game of telephone thing happening here.

        There are definitely some situations where ‘do [action] because company aims to be [specific value]’ would make a lot of sense. Company expects you to behave courteously towards all visitors because we want everyone to feel comfortable here. Company expects us to be very insistent in getting invoices from suppliers by [deadline] so we can pay all by end of financial year. And so on. Slightly weird but there is a reason to say it like that.

        But ‘company expects you to finish this report by Tuesday c.o.b. / organise a meeting for llama discussions’ is just weird.

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      2. Nesprin*

        Yeah I wonder if OP is looking for “to be successful in your role here at Company Y, you need to do X”.

        I statements e.g. “I feel X when you to do Y,” are great for asking for what you need in personal relationships, but this isn’t really a work relationship and OP has more recourse than just asking nicely.

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    2. AcademiaNut*

      I could see something like that if you’re explaining that something is a company policy, rather than the manager’s decision – it can be useful to know that your supervisor can’t change something.

      Other than that, I think the softening idea is because it’s passing responsibility for decisions or reprimands to a nebulous higher authority, rather than the manager directly taking responsibility. Which would be a sign of someone who was very uncomfortable actually managing.

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      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        Yeah, I’d expect this phrasing if the person relaying it wants to convey they don’t necessarily agree but it’s policy. “Company expects everyone to be in the office at least 3 days a week”. Not for what someone is being asked to do for their job! If someone wants to convey that it’s not personal, using “we” instead of “I” would be much less weird.

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      2. Jack Russell Terrier*

        That’s what I thought. It’s like what parents tell kids. It’s not Mum who wants you to wash your hands, oh no – it’s because it’s time for dinner. Mum’s not to blame!!

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        1. Selina Luna*

          Do parents do that? I’ve been parenting all wrong, then. I tell my kid to wash his hands because I don’t want sticky, gooey 4-year-old hands touching stuff. Any stuff.

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    3. Coffee Snob/Knob*

      Actually, I’ve had to resort to doing this mainly because my expectations for my team and the company expectations are wildly out of sync with one another. For example, our company has mandated our KPIs to sell 10,000 coffee machines in multi-year contracts (not really but I think it doesn’t matter) this year.

      However, the industry is highly competitive, and sales is a slow process in my industry, I completed my fastest sale in 1.5 months. The prep work for each sale is long, taking days to come up with pitches and proposals, much less the convincing of the bosses to take on a huge commitment.

      With this in mind, I would be happy to hit even half of what the company expects aka 5000 coffee machines. However, my boss insists that I still convey company expectations to my team, and sits in team meetings to make sure that I am conveying that to my team.

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    4. Angeleno at heart*

      Readers of Aubrey/Maturin will recall the line from Admiral Nelson’s signal at Trafalgar, “ England expects that every man will do his duty.”

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        1. Sharpie*

          I was just chatting with a friend this morning; she’s just watched the film and was asking about the books. I envy her, getting to read them for the first time!

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      2. Sharpie*

        That isn’t just from the Aubrey/Maturing series, that was the actual signal flown at the Battle of Trafalgar.

        But then, Surprise is on our side!

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      3. Good Enough For Government Work*

        Or just anyone vaguely familiar with British history; it’s one of the most famous quotes, to the point of basically being a meme…

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    5. Snow Globe*

      I kind of think it odd that establishing expectations with a new employee requires “softening” language. It’s a good thing to set clear expectations; every job has expectations, the problems start when the employee isn’t sure what the expectations are. Why does this need to be softened?

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    6. Unkempt Flatware*

      #4 reminds me of my first job in high school as a bank teller but in reverse. Many rules and regulations. But we were never allowed to site policy in why we were making decisions. So when not allowing a customer to take money out without an ID: because I said so.

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      1. Selina Luna*

        I don’t know when you worked as a teller, but I think IDs are required these days to withdraw money without a debit card. Like, you can use a debit card, or you have to have picture ID. I think it might even be federally mandated.

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    7. HailRobonia*

      I’ve heard it in reference to a team… such as when my manager had said “as a team we are expected to follow up with any emails within 48 hours…”

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    8. #4 OP*

      OP of #4 here. Thank you. I honestly agree. The suggestion came from my HR partner and I was surprised, but I’m open to hearing her out on why she recommended it. I’m talking to her this week but was genuinely curious what others thought.

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    9. a trans person*

      It is *so* depersonalized that it makes it sound deliberate to me, as a way to coerce employees to take actions they’d otherwise resist. Milgram’s obedience studies got a ton of milage out of the line “The experiment requires that you continue.” People can be argued with; The Company / Science are not so approachable.

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      1. #4 OP*

        OP of #4 here. That’s a great point. I definitely use that when dealing with unhappy customers about a situation that isn’t going to change no matter how much they complain. Like, yes, I might have made the decision they are unhappy about, but the only value in owning the decision in the moment is inviting argument. So I don’t give them a target to argue with. I word it carefully to make it seem immutable and out of my hands. When it comes to managing my direct reports, I feel more willing to own it because 1) pretty much everything is open to discussion, I would rather have long discussions about something and come to a common understanding than mandate things without an opportunity for the report to explain their perspective. So giving them a target to argue with is fine. And 2) I have a much closer and more supportive relationship with my reports and I don’t want me/management to feel like an amorphous corporate blob. I want us to feel like humans who have compassion and empathy. Because we do.

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    10. TootsNYC*

      The first time I had to have a convo like this, I found it helpful to say “the job needs you to” or “the role” needs you to. Or maybe “the team” or “the workflow.”
      Because it wasn’t me personally—it was the set of tasks that needed to be done.

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    11. Thomas*

      Yeah. To me that wording doesn’t “soften” the message, it implies that the messenger doesn’t have any say in the message. But if that’s true then it would be better outright said (eg “this is policy set by upper management”), while if that’s false and OP *does* have a say in it then implying they don’t is underhanded.

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  2. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    #3, you might try Loop earplugs. They’re great at dampening sounds in the background and may take the edge off the sniffling.

    Not sure how they’d be with answering the phone. I’ve never worn mine on a phone call. Could be worth testing out though (I can hear face-to-face conversations just fine with them).

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    1. Daria grace*

      Just make sure you get the right type of Loop earplugs. They have several models designed for different settings and not all will be equally helpful for this

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      1. Heart&Vine*

        I was going to say, this sounds like a tick more than a reaction to something in the environment. If that’s the case, there’s probably little OP can do since 1. even if OP confronts the coworker, it’s unlikely she can stop even if she wanted to and 2. if it’s something diagnosable, she would be protected by ADA and the onus would be on OP to accommodate. Maybe OP can bring this up to their boss and ask if their desk could be moved or another accommodation could be put in place so that they didn’t have to choose between wearing headphones or listening to constant sniffling.

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    3. Catwhisperer*

      I use Flare Calmer, which are designed to block out annoying background noise like eating/chewing, traffic, crowd noise etc. without changing volumes so you can still hear conversations. I highly recommend them for this sort of situation, especially since you can still talk on the phone and wear over-ear headphones with music.

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      1. TooTiredToThink*

        I’m gonna have to look into these. I love my Loops for the concerts I’ve been to. But need something that will still allow me to talk on the computer/phone.

        I telework. I’m fairly confident that my upstairs neighbor is pregnant as I am hearing what sounds like vomiting multiple times a day. I’m trying real hard to remain sane cause obviously I absolutely cannot check in with her and ask her if everything is ok.

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        1. HCworker*

          Why can’t you check on her? (Not a sarcastic question.) I guess it would be awkward if you’ve never ever spoken before, but I feel like a stop upstairs just to say “Hey, how’s it going?” wouldn’t be too weird (maybe a little weird, but not tooooo weird?) if you’ve been friendly in the past. Once or twice, stuff like that has been the opening someone in my life needed to ask for a little bit of help they’d been afraid to seek.

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          1. Ali + Nino*

            For the love of God please don’t, just don’t. I’ve been pregnant, with all the accompanying nausea and morning (and all-day) sickness, and I would just be mortified if my neighbor did this. Your intention is good but please don’t make your neighbor more self-conscious than she probably already is.

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            1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

              Yeah, many of the things that might make someone regularly vomit aren’t things that the neighbor will likely want to talk about. Pregnancy, bulimia and other purging disorders, chemo, chronic vertigo, etc. “Yes, I sure do barf a lot” is not on the list of things I would want to discuss with a neighbor unless they were already an *extremely* close confidante.

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              1. Hannah Lee*

                The “I can hear my neighbor doing xyz through the walls/floor/ceiling” situation falls into the same category as “I can hear my coworker 2 cubes over confirming a doctor’s appt / doing other personal business”

                Even though you couldn’t possibly NOT hear it, simply because of location and the physics of sound, it’s *important to maintain the fiction* that of course you didn’t hear any of it. Because otherwise it would be impossible for humans to co-exist in close spaces they have little/no control over without things getting incredibly awkward and people going batty.

                Exceptions obviously for voluntary things people have some control over such as neighbors tap dancing at 2 am, or clomping around loudly at dawn or co-workers clipping their nails all day or talking on speaker phone to whoever. But basic bodily functions, or just trying to get through the business of life? No.

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          2. TooTiredToThink*

            We friendly text a decent amount – especially since she’s new to the area so I’ll let her know things that I think she might want to know about. But there’s literally no way to say “hey, it sounds like someone is vomiting 5-10 times a day do you need anything?,’ because right now they have no idea I can hear it. It’s that illusion of privacy we all try to maintain in a shared complex. Now, if it sounded like she was sick-sick (vomiting all day long) and I knew she didn’t have a partner, I would ruin the illusion and ask if she’s ok. But pregnant-type vomiting? Nah. She also already knows too if she needs something she can text me.

            Ask yourself this: If you were making an uncontrollable noise and your neighbor could hear it; would you want to know? Probably not; because it would make you super self-conscious.

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            1. 2 Cents*

              Oh, I feel bad for her and for you — you’re being a good neighbor by pretending you can’t hear it! I’ve been your neighbor — I had “morning” sickness for all nine months at all hours of the day. Nothing helped, but I would’ve been mortified to know someone (aside from my husband) could hear it and it was bothering them, esp since I HATE vomiting.

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          3. iglwif*

            Because that is against the Rules of Multi-Family Dwellings. I would be absolutely mortified if I was throwing up and had to pause in the proceedings to explain to a neighbour I had not previously met what was going on in my life.

            (Exception: sounds of actual violence.)

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      2. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        +1. I love my Flares. I have sensory integration disorder and it is difficult for me to understand people in settings with a lot of background noise and they help SO much. I am 50% less exhausted when I wear them in settings like that.

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    4. Hyaline*

      Seconded. It may not block the sound completely but I’ve found even reducing sounds helps.

      Big picture, this is falling into a “you need to find a way to mitigate your annoyance, because you can’t ask someone to breathe differently” and earplugs are a good first attempt to do so.

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        1. Learn ALL the things*

          There are other ways to drown out sound. A small desktop noise machine/air purifier/fan could provide just enough sound to mask other distracting noises if you’re not able to use headphones.

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          1. 1-800-BrownCow*

            Until the people around you complain that the noise from noise machine/air purifier/fan are distracting to them and you’re told you can’t have noise-making things at your desk. I’m in the same boat as Overit, I cannot wear earplug/buds/headphones as work but am struggling with constant distractions at work, mainly people who come to chat with my officemates about sports and things. I have nothing against friendly chatter at work, but when 15 different people come in each day for a “quick 5-10 minute chat”, it’s frustrating.

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        2. Rose*

          A lot of the new ones look like hearing aids or you could get a doctor’s note for misophonia as it falls under asking for an accommodation for work.

          Many people don’t realize that these new things like Loop don’t block louder sounds like phones ringing and people speaking. They work more to filter out quieter, repetitive sounds like sniffling.

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    5. Polaris*

      I use the Loop Engage, and they do a decent job with blocking out a little of my coworker’s consistent coughing/hacking/phlegm spitting/gagging. Decent job = I’m not nauseated from the sounds of it (I’m a sympathetic puker and this is close enough that its a problem…) all day every day.

      I don’t really know how they work with phones, since we just use MS Teams for that. They seem okay though in that format though.

      I acknowledge that I am completely at BEC with this coworker for a multitude of reasons. When I can hear him arguing loudly with his doctor on the phone (through his office door, and he’s not next door to me) that he doesn’t have COPD and doesn’t need to be seen and doesn’t need treatments…all while coughing and spitting phlegm? I’m about at my wits end. Are the rest of us stuck with headphones til he retires????

      I know there’s not really an answer. The whole situation blows.

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    6. Vampire Lady*

      I have really bad misophonia with some noises, and one of those is my coworker’s breathing. I also have to answer phones and listen to background noise (for the sake of anonymity, I won’t detail what background noise that is, but it’s important). I ALSO can’t wear anything that goes into my ears for long periods of time due to a medical condition, otherwise I’d wear Loops.

      Luckily, my coworker doesn’t sit right next to me, but I can still hear her breathing and I’ve had days where I have to walk away for a few minutes to compose myself.

      Any suggestions from the wonderful AAM community? Moving desks isn’t an option, as we have very specific equipment at our desks that can’t be moved.

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      1. TooTiredToThink*

        I too can’t wear earphones for long periods of time – otherwise I get ear infections. Would a desktop white noise machine help? Or maybe one of those other type nose machines?

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    7. LW3*

      Thank you! I’ve seen a bunch of ads for them and considered them for things like concerts, but it honestly never occurred to me to use them for daily issues.

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    10. Aerin*

      I’ve used my Loops on the phone. They work fine under the headset, I just have to turn it up a bit more than I usually do. Sometimes if there’s an offender on one side, I’ll only wear the Loop in that ear.

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    11. Yorick*

      Just want to reply to a thread about #3 that when I have a stuffy nose, it can feel like my nose is running so I instinctively sniff, But there’s nothing actually coming out and I can’t even blow my nose because the blockage is in my sinuses and not in my nose. So tissues don’t help at all.

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  3. KiwiBrit*

    in response to the sniffer, it may just be an annoying habit, not an issue that can’t be fixed. sniffers drive me insane too!

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    1. yvve*

      I think I would just be extra -annoyed by the insistence that it’s not a problem. Like, it is a problem! Its just not a problem FOR YOU, it’s a problem for everyone around you

      (I had a roommate in college who snored, and then told me it “wasn’t a problem”. Yes it was!!)

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      1. Anon for this one*

        I’m in the middle of chemo. You know how you lose your hair? That includes nose hairs. Turns out nose hairs keep snot in place, and without them you either sniffle or blow your nose constantly. It may be a problem for you, and I truly am sympathetic, but the fact that something is a problem doesn’t mean I can solve it.

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        1. Not on board*

          yeah, people who don’t deal with allergies or in your case, chemo, really don’t get it. It’s not enjoyable for the sniffler either – they say it’s not a problem in that they mean they can function overall – not in that they’re okay with the sniffling. Often there’s nothing to be done about it.

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        2. Smithy*

          Yeah – I think this is also a case of a “problem” that the person in question may be looking to solve but it’s on a wildly different timeline than the person being bothered.

          Chemo may be a more linear version of this, where as priorities go – finishing chemo and having hair, such as nose hair, grow back is a process that’s desired. But it may be months or years away which isn’t a timeline that’s likely going to appease the annoyed person.

          Where I do think the responsibility does truly fall on the “annoyed” person’s shoulders is when it comes to how fast you need a solution. If the fix you need is on the ASAP timeline, then you do need to proactively find those immediate solutions when the longer term fixes may easily take longer on the individual’s part or the employer when it comes to office seating dynamics.

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        3. Anon Again... Naturally*

          So much this! I have severe allergies and do everything I can to mitigate my symptoms, but the most powerful medications literally knock me out for 6 hours. There are days when my choices are to have a (non-contagious) sniffle or not to work at all. My work has a generous sick time policy, but not nearly enough that I can take off every time my allergies trigger. I’d be mortified if someone made a big deal about it. Fortunately I work from home now and the only one my sniffling irritates are my cats.

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          1. Goldenrod*

            I also have chronic allergies. I have to blow my nose constantly, like every 10 minutes or so. I’m sure it’s annoying for others…but, as Alison pointed out, it’s sure annoying for ME too and nothing has ever solved it!

            I tried going to doctors but their solutions never worked so it’s just something I have to live with.

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        4. Freya*

          Today I learned about chemo and nose hairs… thank you! It’s not something I would have gone researching to find out any other way :-D

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    2. allathian*

      Yeah, me too, but some people react more strongly than others. LW#3, is there any chance you could ask to move so you didn’t have to sit right next to the sniffler?

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      2. WeirdChemist*

        Same! I’ve been mildly congested for the past decade. Haven’t found a fix! Would sure like to! I don’t enjoy living like this!

        The reality is that we exist on the planet with other people, and sometimes they’re mildly annoying and make noise. There’s only so much control you can exert over others, and telling them how to breathe is typically an overstep.

        I totally get the BEC thing where once you notice a person’s habits they’re like nails on a chalkboard and you feel like you can’t tune it out, but sometimes… you just gotta learn to live with it

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      3. Turquoisecow*

        Same. Before I found allergy meds that work for me, I was constantly sniffing and sneezing and blowing my nose and I know it annoyed my coworkers a lot. It annoyed me and made it hard for me to focus or concentrate. I wfh now but ragweed and grass are two of my big triggers and they’re high right now so I’m sniffling and sneezing even with the good meds.

        Trust me, if it’s annoying you to listen, it’s annoying the sniffler to do it, and if there is a solution, they are looking for it, and they are not annoying you on purpose. Comments like “can you just stop,” or “blow your nose!” or whatever are not helpful. Sure I can blow my nose and that will give us five minutes of relief before I have to either sniff or blow again.

        Accept that other people live in the world and make noises, you cannot control other people’s bodies, and learn to live with it. I don’t know if that means you have to have headphones on or earplugs or go to therapy or meditate, but there will always be human sounds when you live in a society near other humans and even if this coworker leaves tomorrow there will always be something else.

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        1. Jessie Spano*

          how about just gently dabbing your nose with a soft issue? why is that option off the table? I’ve suffered from non-allergenic rhinitis my entire life, so I know what I’m talking about. I really don’t understand how so many people are like “can’t do anything about it, sorry”. the only options are not blowing your nose constantly or sniffling a thousand times an hour.

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          1. Syd*

            I suffer from this also. For me, the sniffling isn’t liquid running running out of the nostril; it’s liquid running down the back of my throat. So a tissue doesn’t do anything.

            The sniffling is an auto-response to part of trying to clear the “tickle”. Along with that, I have a pretty repetitive short, barking cough. I’ve been to multiple doctors, tried allergy medicines. Usually the side effects are worse than the ailments – if they do anything at all.

            I probably cough 2-4 times per hour. Just one short barking cough. I try to stifle it but not much I can do. Cough drops are no help. I was in a class recently and every time I coughed a lady 2 rows back called out “Bless You!”. (Maybe she thought it was sneeze?) So embarrassing.

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            1. Drago Cucina*

              When I began my high blood pressure medication I had one of the common side effects: a persistent, dry cough.

              I had a co-worker complain, but fortunately I had an office and started closing my door. The nasty looks I’d get when out and about were not helpful. I wanted to wear a sign that said, “Not Contagious”.

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              1. Distracted Librarian*

                I’m so sorry. I have a chronic lung disease that causes me to have a cough all the time. I use cough drops when I have to, but I can’t use them all day, every day, so… I cough. A lot. Thankfully I have a private office some distance from my co-workers, so hopefully I’m not driving them bonkers. At least once a day, I have to assure someone I’m not contagious.

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          2. mlem*

            As someone else with lifelong non-allergic rhinitis, I *do* wipe my nose regularly (or did, back before the pandemic; now I mask in the office, so I have to go outside to wipe my nose). That’s not what my sniffling is for.

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      4. Hannah Lee*

        There are also common medications that cause sniffing or frequent throat clearing, that some people have to take to control chronic conditions. No fun for the person having to deal with those symptoms 24 / 7, and they are sniffing or throat clearing AT other people.

        So while I get people being annoyed by the sound (I’m super sensitive to sounds like that and struggle to tune them out) it’s often NOT simply ‘an annoying habit’ that the person is choosing to practice, it’s the result of some bodily process they have little to no control over.

        And they likely have little to no control over their employer’s decisions about how far employees’ work spaces are from each other, and the amount of sound dampening around.

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    4. A Nony Mouse*

      That seems rather uncharitable – a bit like saying someone in a wheelchair “may be” just using it for attention, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary.

      Constantly being snuffly *can* be an issue which is difficult or impossible to fix, and quite annoying to the sniffer too. My brother had a similar problem – apparently due to the shape of his sinuses/nose – and ended up having surgery in an attempt to fix it, which wasn’t entirely successful.

      Reply ↓
      1. Reluctant Mezzo*

        I have always had terrible sinuses, and the area is small enough that trying to reroute them will not work (also, that softball which bounced off my glove and onto my nose apparently did a little permanent damage. Whee). Medications to clear them give me chest pains (which happens to 4% of the users, lucky me). So I sniff…

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      1. JSPA*

        This. People who sniff constantly have something going on, whatever the something may be.

        If simple feedback was adequate to notice and fix it, they’d have done so during the horror years of jr high or earlier, when their peers were not invested in being professional and polite and appropriately socially filtered. (Unless they’re from a culture where blowing your nose in public is nearly as gross as wiping your backside in public–but then it’d still be a huge hurdle to ask them to undo that cultural training.)

        And also, if they were otherwise kind and organized and lovely and competent and darn-near walked on water, the LW (unless misophonic?) probably would be–sure, still not happy with the sniffing–but sympathetic and hoping to help, rather than hoping to have their irritation validated.

        I don’t think it’s evil or wrong to mention that it’s hard to hear (or maybe even ask, as a favor, if they could use a hankie or tissue on migraine days).

        But working through constant sniffles is no more “wrong” a choice than working through a migraine. And plenty of people here have complained about someone blowing their nose every minute or two; if someone is sniffing every few seconds, their other alternative is exactly that.

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    6. Jezebel*

      I hate sniffling SO much! Just blow your freaking nose already! And I say this as someone in a lifelong battle with my constantly stuffy nose. You may hear me sneeze and you may hear me blow, but you will never hear me sniffle.

      Reply ↓
        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          I would definitely rather deal with sniffling than constant nose blowing, as a desk neighbor. But in either case I’m probably just going to be sympathetic. I get that it may be a little grating but I can’t imagine it’s any more comfortable for you!

          Reply ↓
        2. Beth*

          I have severe lifelong allergies, and when I have to blow my nose, it is a mighty trumpet blast.

          I once had a boss who scolded me for making so much noise, saying it “disturbed” him when he was on the phone. He apparently firmly believed that it was entirely voluntary on my part. (He was a jerk in many other ways also.)

          Reply ↓
        3. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          You can at least reply that you’re doing your best. If you blow your nose you do have more respite than if you just sniff. IME at least (allergies here).

          Reply ↓
          1. Eldritch Office Worker*

            Not true for everyone (particularly in regard to allergies which can just be a consistant irritant) and excessive nose blowing can cause pain and other issues

            Reply ↓
      2. dulcinea47*

        my nose will just make more snot instantly. People also hate when you blow your nose constantly. I know b/c they’ve told me. I’d love my allergies to magically go away, but I’m already taking 4 medications and that’s the best I can do.

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      4. How Luck You Are to Have All Your Organs & Medical Functions*

        Count yourself lucky that you think it is simply a matter of blowing your nose. Privilege comes in many forms, including medical.

        Signed, someone whose body actively works to kill them every day

        Reply ↓
      5. duinath*

        I don’t have a chronic sniffle, but when I get sick I tend to *stay* sick, which means the last time I got sick I had to fully stop blowing my nose for a while because I had blown it all the way out. Blood everywhere. If you’re ever tempted to tell someone with a chronic sniffle “just blow your nose already” IRL, please keep that in mind.

        It’s not something you’d expect, right? Not something people think of, because it hasn’t happened to them. There are *so many* of those unexpected things.

        You’re better off going into a situation assuming the other person knows their situation better than you do, and giving them the grace of thinking, yes, they have tried the obvious solution. It just doesn’t work for them.

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      6. Yorick*

        When I sniffle, it’s usually a situation where nose blowing won’t help because there’s not actually anything in my nose itself. I promise I blow my nose whenever that’s the solution to the problem.

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      7. CorruptedbyCoffee*

        As someone with chronic, heavily treated rhinitis, blowing my nose will sound like a fog horn, will take approximately 1-3 minutes, and will need to be repeated within 3 minutes. If that’s what you want, I’m willing to do that, but I assure you the sniffles are the less annoying way of dealing. (And yes, I’ve seen several allergists, gotten immunotherapy, and take several medications for it). You can only do so much

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    7. Not on board*

      I can guarantee that the snifflers themselves aren’t happy about the situation either. As someone with terrible allergies, it is very uncomfortable and I’d love nothing more than to not have to sniffle. Sometimes the meds work, sometimes they don’t. And using a tissue is pointless most of the time and will lead to a raw and red nose, so sniffling it is. I think framing as this person is suffering from something that is causing them to sniffle and try to feel sympathy. Re-framing it that way might make the sound much less annoying.

      Reply ↓
      1. I Still Use Notepad*

        +100

        Allergies are pernicious and some seasons, some days even, are worse than others. I always have at least one antihistamine on board. I sincerely doubt this is a bad habit vs a chronic medical issue.

        I’m also more likely to sniffle a bit because there are some days, especially when HVAC is blowing really dry air, because too much nose blowing can cause my nose to bleed.

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    8. Hyaline*

      …and I’m sure the sniffler really enjoys *snot dribbling from her nostrils all day.* She’s saying it isn’t a problem as in “this is not an emergent issue,” but I’m sure it’s not fun for her. It may not be “an annoying habit”–it might be a physical issue that is nonetheless unsolvable. The kindest thing to do here is let it go and find a way to mitigate how much it bothers you–earplugs, white noise machine, headphones when applicable, asking to have your desk moved…

      Reply ↓
    9. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I had a coworker once who didn’t just sniff – he had a full post-nasal-drip snort every 3 minutes. You could hear it from 100 feet away.

      His girlfriend finally convinced him to visit an ENT and the problem was rapidly resolved.

      Reply ↓
      1. JSPA*

        But when intervention doesn’t work, it can go terribly wrong. Google (for example) “empty nose syndrome.”

        Given that there are far worse things than a constantly dripping nose… and some of them can result from trying to fix a constantly dripping nose… it isn’t an obvious, “easy peasy slam dunk, you’ll be fine just see a doc” situation.

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      2. CorruptedbyCoffee*

        It’s wonderful that it was easy to solve. Please believe me when I say that many, many snifflers have less success and can only reduce or periodically stop the problem. Unfortunately, not everything is solvable.

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    10. HCworker*

      Yeah, so my initial reaction was similar to yours (we’re putting a lot of interpretation onto this to make sure we don’t believe it’s the sniffler’s fault, when it could just be an annoying habit they haven’t bothered fixing). But I think that in general, if the goal is to help the LW find a way to cope with the situation without going nuts, fixating on the idea that the sniffler is a nuisance won’t actually help them, and may amplify their worry. I feel like this might be a time when assuming the kindest possible explanation (that they can’t control it and it’s not their fault) is also the one that’s going to help the LW cope better, whether it’s fully accurate or not, because in either case LW is not going to get the sniffler to change, but the kind explanation gives the LW a reason to let it go a little more easily. I guess what I’m saying is, whether or not it’s factually true that the sniffler is a victim of terrible circumstance (as opposed to someone with an annoying habit they won’t bother breaking for the peace of others), the more charitable explanation also offers some relief for the LW and refocuses things on how the LW can change their response to the environment instead of dwelling on how the sniffler must be an inconsiderate person.

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      1. LW3*

        This is how I took it too. I really appreciate both sides of the discussion, but ultimately my hope is that following Alison’s advice and trying to reframe it will help me stop being so aggravated by it.

        Reply ↓
        1. 2 Cents*

          I think that you find this person annoying in *other ways* as you noted in your letter isn’t helping either. I will let things slide for coworkers I like rather than the ones I wish took long walks off short piers. Maybe the headphones mentioned above, paired with acknowledging to yourself this is just another one of Lucinda’s *endearing* qualities will help. (Any chance your office with switch desks around???)

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    11. blah*

      We don’t know why this person is sniffing so much, and it’s not LW’s place to ask why OR ask them to figure out how to stop. Like Alison said, the sniffer could have already tried several solutions! Unfortunately, working with other people means you sometimes have to be annoyed by them.

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    12. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      When I took a bar exam about 30 years ago, the guy next to me told me he was going to move due to my sniffling. Which was fine with me because I was sniffling because of his cologne.

      Reply ↓
    13. Hroethvitnir*

      Reading this while sitting on my couch at home intermittently sniffing and coughing due to post-nasal drip is wild.

      Apart from anything else, I too get misophonia (mostly to mouth sounds), so strangely this drives me insane on that level too.

      Blowing your nose does nothing for post-nasal drip. The thin fluid that does make its way continuously down my nose is not blowable, though I do dab it with tissues occasionally. No antihistamine has ever made a discernible difference, and I’m not considering *surgery* (as if I’d get it) for allergies. I’m just happy I can breathe through my nose at all, as I couldn’t as a teenager and it gave me an intense fear of being gagged.

      It’s legitimately incredibly annoying! Totally fair: I sniff as little as possible and would struggle hearing it too! But no, they almost certainly can’t “just”.

      Reply ↓
    14. LCH*

      There is an rx nasal spray that helps curb runny nose. I use it! Sniffling also makes me nuts. Having to use a tissue every 5 minutes also sucked. Ipratropium bromide.

      Reply ↓
  4. Daria grace*

    #2, in addition to harassment, your company also has potential discrimination issues on its hands it might be worth pointing out if someone is deliberately making it harder for the women in the company do their jobs. Any competent HR would have done a lot more to deal with this situation

    Reply ↓
    1. Elizabeth West*

      This — it puts the company at risk for legal action. But clearly HR either doesn’t know or doesn’t care.
      And Kevin is pond scum.

      Reply ↓
        1. Festively Dressed Earl*

          It probably would, but companies/HR often bet on their employees not doing so for all but the most outrageous misconduct. At a guess, Kevin is smart enough not to prey on anyone he’s senior to, which means he’s below the radar.

          As the series title says, Kevin Can Go … y’all know the rest.

          Reply ↓
        2. I AM a Lawyer*

          I agree that OP should consult a lawyer. This is a pretty cut and dried case of retaliation on top of everything else. HR is really falling down on the job. A demand letter from a laywer could help because HR doesn’t appear to know the law.

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    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      You’ve also got to wonder how this situation will work out practically. If it’s an office of 50 people and 25 of them are women who have rejected Kevin and are now non-people to him, that’s an awful lot of people to ignore.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ellie*

        Tragically, I just assumed this was an engineering or IT environment, or one with a similar male to female ratio. Most managers do not care if 5 women on a team of 50 are all being harassed by the same man, if his behaviours are mostly weird and quirky instead of dangerous and threatening. I think Alison’s words of warning to the new hires are perfect. In fact, I’d talk loudly about Kevin’s behaviour to anyone who will listen.

        Reply ↓
        1. Southern Ladybug*

          Exactly, not wishpered, but a matter of fact part of on-boarding. I would do this, keeping only to the facts in the conversation so when HR came to me I can ask what is factually inaccurate about it.

          Go off where you can opinion wise though. I’d be having PLENTY of informal conversations about it.

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      2. ThatOtherClare*

        We don’t know how long Kevin ices people out for, though. If he only does it for, say, a month before returning to being willing to work with them, HR might think there’s no problem. Because, of course, it’s totally reasonable for HR to expect people not to have any hurt feelings, or to feel any discomfort or weirdness around a person who iced them out for a while and is now pretending it never happened in some sort of reality defying passive-aggressive mind trip. (That previous sentence was sarcasm. It’s not at all reasonable for anyone to expect that).

        Reply ↓
        1. DJ Abbott*

          I’ve known a couple of people socially who were easily offended. They would get all mad and stop talking to me or another person and then after a few months or years, start being friendly again. They were not willing to talk about and resolve the problem, they just tried to go back to being friendly without ever discussing it.
          Kevin sounds like this type. Maybe just let him stew until he gets over his… whatever it is.

          Reply ↓
            1. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

              Yes, it takes a lot of energy to maintain that level of misery. It’s easier just to say Good Morning or nod at someone than to actively ignore them. I wonder if they keep a list of Persons That I Am Not Talking To Today.

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          2. ferrina*

            I worked with someone who decided that she hated my personality. We worked together really well for about 6 months, then one day she decided “I don’t like you, and there’s nothing you can do about it. It’s just your personality, not something you can change.” (yes actual quote. That she said in front of our boss)

            Some people just suck. They pick a target to punish for whatever perceived wrong is in their life. It does require a manager or HR person to address it and tell them to knock it off, because they don’t always do it on their own.

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            1. Bast*

              I can’t imagine behaving that way at work and thinking it’s acceptable. You need to at least remain professional, if not outright friendly. I’ve worked with individuals I wasn’t crazy about, but recognized a certain degree of civility needed to be maintained in order to do our jobs. “Ignore them” never crossed my mind as an out.

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              1. ferrina*

                Completely ignored it.
                Eventually I pushed the boss to address it, and she had us meet with her. It was a circus- I asked my coworker what I could do to improve our relationship, and she basically said that it didn’t matter what I did, she didn’t like me and was going to treat me like crap. My boss let her leave, then told me that I had to try harder to fix the relationship and manage the conflict. She told me to use more “I statements”.
                I requested a transfer (there was an open spot on a different shift that was willing to switch positions with me). Boss said no.

                Boss was a shocked pikachu face when I turned in my resignation letter a week later.

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          3. wordswords*

            Socially, sure. I mean, other people might or might not be willing to put up with it, but it’s something you can do in a friends group.

            At work? As a reaction to being turned down when hitting on coworkers? It’s sexual harrassment and retaliation, and worse, it’s a clear and consistent pattern of it. “Oh, that’s just Kevin; ignore him until he gets over it” is not a reasonable solution. Even if HR is blocking more appropriate avenues so that LW2 and her coworkers are forced to take approaches like that, spreading the word to new hires, etc, the fact remains that the actual appropriate approach is serious and immediate discipline for Kevin.

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          4. Dancing Otter*

            There was a woman like that in my hometown. She kept switching churches until she ran out, then started over.
            One time, she went to the pastor, threatening to leave – iirc, it might have been something about the coffee, always a good source of disagreement – and he’d just had enough. He wished her well in her “new community of faith.” The kicker was, she told the story on herself, complaining about his cavalier attitude.

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            1. Orv*

              Or, if it’s a male-dominated company, they feel they need to perform the “not like those other girls” dance to be accepted.

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      3. T.*

        Is the HR person a woman he is currently icing out? That would make it awfully hard to do her job if make mgmt doesn’t back her.

        Reply ↓
        1. Lenora Rose*

          IF HR was, they’d actually be willing to do something about it, regardless of whether they are able. Sounds like they didn’t even get to “willing”.

          Reply ↓
    3. DameB*

      Also, what the hell is going on with the MANAGERS here? I would also report that person to HR because they are allowing this ridiculous situation to persist. Dude gets his pantsfeelings rejected and throws a tantrum that amounts to “You’re dead to me” and his manager and her manager are both just Ok with it? That’s absurd.

      Reply ↓
        2. Hannah Lee*

          I don’t care what gender the managers are.

          If they are letting this fly without addressing it with Kevin, they all suck.

          Reply ↓
      2. Momma Bear*

        Agreed. Presumably everyone just works around Kevin when he’s being like that but I’d be bringing it up to the managers. “We have a deliverable due Friday but have not yet received Kevin’s input. Kevin is refusing to speak to, acknowledge, or work with Sheila and actively hindering her ability to finish this project. This is common behavior from Kevin toward his female colleagues and the department is suffering for it.” Document as often as necessary. Make Kevin’s problem their problem.

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    4. Learn ALL the things*

      Yeah, the HR at this company is beyond terrible and I wouldn’t feel the least bit bad about having a lawyer send a very pointed letter directed both to the head of HR and the owner/CEO of the company.

      They have an employee that they know has asked out every woman in the office and reacted badly when they say no. They have apparently not told him that he is not allowed to ask out any more coworkers, because he’s currently cozying up to the new batch, and they think it’s totally fine to ice out coworkers and refuse to engage with them. These people are awful and they deserve a thorough legal smackdown.

      Reply ↓
    5. Bitte Meddler*

      I wonder what happens when, say, one of the new women accepts his offer to go out on a date, maybe goes on 2nd and 3rd date, and then decides he’s not the guy for her.

      Someone who ices out women who turn him down at Stage 1 is surely going to escalate his retaliation when the rejection occurs at Stage 2.

      Reply ↓
  5. Anonymous Educator*

    For #2, not that it should be your job to remind HR of its job, but can you use the word retaliation the next time you talk to them about this awful man? Maybe that will wake them up to this being part of the harassment (I hope).

    Reply ↓
    1. Ellie*

      It can really help to know the terminology to use. Is it worth consulting with a lawyer in the background, who can tell you the exact wording to use?

      Reply ↓
      1. jmu*

        Legally, the exact words used do not matter as long as they are unambiguous about the facts. I doubt that any “magic word” will trigger action from HR; finding one that does is a question for psychologists rather than lawyers.

        What _does_ matter legally is the paper trail, though. LW2 should make sure she has _emailed_ HR about her “Kevin incident”, not just talked to them. It is good insurance for herself (in case Kevin does something more in the future), but it is also good for the future hires (because a paper trail puts more pressure on HR to act before they end up in a lawsuit for hostile environment).

        I would assume LW2 let her own story slide with only a verbal report. However, if she witnesses another “incident”, I would make sure to email HR about it, with a reminder of her own story (and the dates at which she reported it).

        Reply ↓
        1. Bast*

          Yes, I definitely would recommend a paper trail. Without it, it quickly devolves into a he said/she said situation with OP saying, “Yes, we discussed Kevin on September 16, September 25, and October 2” and HR saying, “Hmm, I don’t seem to remember that.” Even if you have a conversation with witnesses around, or go to HR in a group, if OP does go through with legal action, many people will “not remember” the discussion because they do not want to tangle with the legal system/are in fear of losing their jobs/don’t want to be difficult, etc.

          Reply ↓
        2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Legally, the exact words shouldn’t matter with these kinds of facts. But when you’re dealing with an HR department that is putting 2 and 2 together, and still getting 2 somehow, it can help to use the specific words.

          Years ago, I worked in a store selling cellphones and service plan contracts. To cancel anything or remove services, customers had to call in to the customer service line. Our access to internal systems didn’t allow store staff to do any of this. So people would come down to the store (reasonably!) expecting that we could do things that we absolutely could not. So we’d connect them with customer service over the phone from the store. I cannot tell you how many times the phone agents didn’t understand what the person was asking for unless they used specific wording. Like, to the point that when we’d connect them, we would coach the customer to use specific phrases (e.g., hardware upgrade) to minimize the nonsense.

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          1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

            Basically, it took using the specific term for the phone reps to recognize the situation. I wonder if it’s similar with these HR people. They’re not recognizing retaliation. So it may help to point it out.

            Reply ↓
          2. Selina Luna*

            When I worked in customer service in that manner, *I* would often coach customers in what to say to make it so that I could actually help them. It wasn’t a matter of me being unable to understand, but of the people monitoring my phone system being willing to fire me if I didn’t follow the flowchart specifically.

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      2. Snow Globe*

        Consulting with a lawyer can help, not only by providing appropriate language to use (it shouldn’t matter, but this HR is not competent enough to figure it out on their own), but sometimes, just letting HR know that you’ve spoken with an attorney can get their attention, and it can prompt them to consult with the company’s attorneys, who will tell them what they need to do.

        Reply ↓
        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Exactly this. I’ve spoke to a lawyer and there were concerns about retaliation and continued harrasment that the company is aware of. This will go a long way towards HR realizing that this problem is potentially exposing the company to huge legal liability.

          Reply ↓
          1. Sunflower*

            Yup. It’s been said before, but HR is not there to protect the employees. They’re there to protect the company. Bringing up words like lawyers, retaliation, harassment, etc. might light a fire under them to protect the company which may benefit the employees.

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        2. ferrina*

          Yes yes yes.

          HR should be aware and fixing this, but HR is apparently bad at their job. A lawyer can help *ahem* remind them what that job is. The lawyer will be able to give you pros and cons a specific action.

          IANAL, but I suspect an unambiguously worded letter on legal letter head might raise some lovely concerns.

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    2. Hyaline*

      Was coming here to say, regroup, take notes on specific phrases to use and examples, and go back to HR. Unfortunately, and I’m not trying to victim blame here, but if you went to HR with “Kevin asked me out and it made me uncomfortable” and got “well, is he still bothering you?” and the conversation ended on that note…HR didn’t do a great job asking questions, but it’s possible they also didn’t hear the key words/concepts they needed to hear to indicate an ongoing problem AFTER the initial interaction. Kevin probably knows that silent treatment is a hard one to prove as harassment compared to outright aggression, and the slimy jerk is choosing that tactic on purpose because of it. Try again with words like “retaliation,” “affecting my ability to do my job” and “hostile environment.” Even better if you have a group of you all willing to get on the same script in terms of key words to keep repeating.

      Reply ↓
    3. Salty Caramel*

      Also hostile work environment.

      Someone needs to explain to Kevin that there are not only two ways to treat women. He needs to understand (preferably with a clue-by-four) that “person to date” and “non-person” are not how you treat colleagues.

      Reply ↓
      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yes! This is one of those rare situations where the OP is actually in a hostile work environment as it’s legally defined. Unfortunately. But because this is an illegal situation, OP has a lot more standing with her case than in situations that are hostile by the general definition but not the legal one.

        Reply ↓
  6. Ashley Armbruster*

    #2, ugh. I just don’t understand men like Kevin who hit on all the new women! I’ve met a few men like Kevin (offices, gyms) and they truly don’t have any game!

    Reply ↓
    1. Merrie*

      They know they have no game and the only way they can get attention is from women who haven’t figured out what losers they are.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ellie*

        Or women are just a blank monolith to them, without needs, desires or personalities of their own. Therefore, your chances of asking them out must be the same for all. Trying to gauge whether you click or have common interests is therefore a waste of time.

        Reply ↓
        1. ThatOtherClare*

          Personally I think these two answers are two sides of the same coin. Viewing a woman as ‘Opinionless Female #42’ is a great way to wreck your game. And whether you think a woman is naturally devoid of opinions or you simply think she has no right to hold them, the result looks the same.

          Reply ↓
        2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          This is a great point. If Kevin is asking out every woman who works there, it’s a near certainty that he is not viewing women as full people with interests, ambitions, thoughts, feelings, preferences, etc. It’s wild how many people date and marry people they don’t even like!

          Reply ↓
          1. Hannah Lee*

            I remember I was in the comments section of a relationship advice forum. There was a poster asking for advice about connecting with women, being more successful at getting a date or a good relationship. He described his experience of asking a series of women out, one by one, and getting turned down (or having one or two dates before the woman declined to go out again) He was worried because there was a newish woman in his friend or hobby group that he was thinking of asking out next, and was concerned that others (ie all the lousy women who’d rejected him) would tell her about his history and ruin his chances with her.

            Several of us asked variations of “What is it about this newish woman that sparked your interest?” from the angle of ‘if we have some sense of what the particulars are, what you find special, why she appeals to you enough to ask her out, we could maybe coach him on how to build on that connection, the things that caught his interest’

            The OP seemed completely stumped by that question, could not fathom what people meant by it, even as other posters eventually boiled it down to “is there anything PARTICULAR about HER as an person aside from a) Female and b)Breathing that makes you think you two would hit it off, or makes you want to get to know her better” His answer, of course, was NO. And he was aggravated that we other posters (mostly women BTW) thought he needed any other reasons to hit on someone. She was interchangeable, opinion-less Female #42 to him and he didn’t see that as a problem. Um, Dude? Hello! We think we’ve figured out what the problem is.

            Our advice was for him to not ask any other woman out he could answer that question … ie spend some time getting to know them and figuring out if you have any rapport and what you find special about them. And he responded with the online forum equivalent of flouncing out of the room, all huffy.

            Doing that in a friend group/hobby group/social circle is bad enough. Kevin pulling this stuff at work is WAY out of line, and his manager and the HR reps are completely failing at managing him, putting a stop to it.

            Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      This guy doesn’t consider what might be in it for the woman, or that a new employee is mostly focusing on being friendly and learning the job, or that you’ve already poisoned the well by showing you don’t consider women to be individuals. He’s the one who’s offended?!

      Reply ↓
    3. ThatOtherClare*

      It’s pretty simple. They’re emotionally violent people who don’t think of those women as independent sentient beings.

      Sulking when people don’t do what you want is emotional abuse. It’s the emotional equivalent of a slap in the face. It’s emotional violence, let’s not pretend otherwise. Kevin is going around doing the emotional equivalent of slapping every new woman who refuses to give him her affections. The letter writer’s stance in wanting him gone is very reasonable.

      These people are perfectly capable of continuing to interact with their bosses when the boss says ‘No, you can’t have a raise’, because sulking and going silent would have negative consequences for them. But when these new women with less power than them say no – it’s punishment time! They have to teach these women that saying no to them has unpleasant consequences, so that they’ll hesitate if they’re ever considering doing it again.

      Reply ↓
      1. DJ Abbott*

        They may think that’s what they’re doing but it wouldn’t really work, because almost all women would be put off by that behavior and not want to accommodate them anyway.

        Reply ↓
        1. MsM*

          Sure, but if you can’t date them, exercising what power you do have over them anyway is the next best thing as far as Kevins are concerned.

          Reply ↓
        2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Unfortunately, these men give very little consideration to what makes them appealing or unappealing to women. They’ve decided that women care a lot about money, height, and looks. This is irrespective of what women actually tell them we want. I was once in an argument with a man who said that, as an engineer, he understood human attraction better than me, someone doing a Masters in social psychology.

          If they have money / height / looks, they’re pissed that women aren’t falling at their feet like we’re supposed to, and refuse to consider that we’re actual human beings looking for connection with someone who isn’t a jerk, rather than shallow gold-diggers. If they don’t have those things, they’re pissed at women for being shallow gold-diggers who won’t give them a chance, and refuse to consider that their personalities are off-putting.

          Reply ↓
          1. Goldenrod*

            “I was once in an argument with a man who said that, as an engineer, he understood human attraction better than me, someone doing a Masters in social psychology.”

            WOW.

            Reply ↓
        3. ThatOtherClare*

          That’s still a win for Kevin, because he dislikes them now. In his head they’re nasty bullies who are keeping from him something he’s entitled to – their affections. So if they’re slightly more likely to ask Fergus for help now, or to ask Barry to take the extra shift, or slightly less likely to want to join his team for a project – all of those are good things as far as Kevin is concerned. He doesn’t want to have to interact with those ‘nasty witches’ if he can avoid it. Which is a problem, because if a different man was in the role the women would be working with him, showing their skills and establishing a work-based connection. They’re losing out on part of their network as long as this useless boulder is sitting in the way.

          Kevin is objectively harming their careers in a quantifiable way (-1 direct network connection) as long as he’s there.

          Reply ↓
    4. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      They know they don’t have game, hence the indiscriminate hitting on women. They figure if they hit on all of them, one of them will work out. Without any self-reflection on why it never does.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jackalope*

        In the early days of the internet there was a guy complaining on some chat I was on that women sucked (not his exact words). He mentioned as an example that he was at a party and tried hitting on all 25 women who were there, and none of them responded positively. If it’s just one person, it might be that person. But if everyone responds that way, then it’s you that’s the problem here. This thought didn’t occur to him at all.

        Reply ↓
        1. Seashell*

          I can’t imagine a woman being thrilled about being the 9th woman he hit on during the evening. Even if she might like him otherwise, she’s going to be concerned that he is only trying because the first 8 shot him down and he’s just indiscriminately going for anyone with female parts.

          Reply ↓
          1. Silver Robin*

            Yeah, the level of self absorption to think that 1) none of the women are talking to each other and/or 2) seeing him go from woman to woman and therefore might have some preconceived notions about him is hilarious (enraging, but also hilarious). Each interaction is not actually independent, you do not have a clean new slate with each of these women (some, but not all).

            Reply ↓
          2. MigraineMonth*

            I’m also assuming he didn’t spend a lot of time getting to know each woman before turning the conversation from flirty to an explicit ask, if he had time to hit on all 25 women.

            Reply ↓
        2. Tim*

          Some guy once told me he’d been rejected 109 times but that it was never his fault because women had it out for him—unbelievable!

          Reply ↓
        3. ThatOtherClare*

          I remember in high school a boy asked me ‘Would you go out with me?’ and I replied ‘Why do you ask?’. Instead of taking the perfect opportunity to give me a compliment he just shrugged, walked off and asked another girl the same question right in front of me. I remember at the time feeling devastated that he didn’t actually like me, especially because I quite liked him for specific reasons and I would have dated him if he’d liked me back. My hopes were raised and dashed all in the space of a few seconds. I was heartbroken for weeks wondering if I’d said something wrong. Objectification hurts.

          Reply ↓
          1. Jhrf*

            Nothing’s ever good enough for some people! If I liked someone and that person asked me out, it wouldn’t even occur to me to then play twenty questions to determine whether they _really_ wanted to go out with me.

            Reply ↓
    5. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Ha! I’m reminded of a guy who showed up at a training session run by an outdoor org I volunteer with. Other volunteers told me that he’d taken the training several times before (and it’s not a training you need more than once) and he was always hitting on the women there. Sure enough, at one point he started a conversation with me and after only a few back and forths, said to me, “Oh, I see you’re not wearing a ring.” Smooooooth, my dude, real subtle. I noped right out of that conversation and never made eye contact with him again. (Not exactly the point, either, but he was probably at least 15 years older than me too.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Bitte Meddler*

        Barf.

        I was sitting in the waiting area of an oil change place, and there was only one other customer, a guy sitting a couple of chairs over (in an L-shaped layout, I was sitting in the bottom of the L and he was two chairs up in the vertical).

        Literally out of nowhere he turned to me and said, “Is that a wedding ring on your finger?”

        I said, “Thanks for asking! Actually, it’s my graduation ring. I just got my Master’s in Accounting last year and I am so proud of this ring! I didn’t bother going to my high school graduation or when I got my Bachelor’s, but getting a Master’s is a really high achievement.”

        Then I went on at length about the small percentage of Americans who have Master’s degrees, what it means for my current and future earnings, how great it was to be part of a cohort of diverse graduates and what great friendships we’d developed. On and on and on.

        It was hilarious watching his face slide from “Hell, yeah, she’s talking to me and smiling!” all the way down to “HOW DO I GET THIS B*TCH TO SHUT UP.” :-D

        Reply ↓
    6. Anonymous Mouse*

      As a woman I’d be more than a little nervous to have to work with Kevin. He seems like an incel (or at least on the path to becoming one) and we’ve all heard too many news stories about how some incels treat women….

      Reply ↓
    7. Aerin*

      We had a Kevin at my first attraction at The Mouse. I actually went out with him once (dating among coworkers was extremely common) when I was very new, and I was bored out of my mind. I don’t know if he was really icing me out after that, since this attraction had three positions that were all done solo, but we definitely didn’t chat a lot.

      A while later, I was having lunch with some other people, and he brought around a female new hire to introduce her. I greeted her and then said, “Has he asked you out yet?”

      I’m not sure this is an approach I would exactly recommend, since we were all in our early 20s and there was sort of a culture of mutual roasting. But considering that he became rather less brazen about it after that, I feel like the public call-out must have had some impact.

      (Dunno if I’ve ever told the story here about how a guy at lunch wouldn’t let go of an uncomfortable subject, so I told him to drop it or I would stab him with a fork–he did not, and I stabbed him with a fork. Yup, that was Kevin. He was a peach.)

      Reply ↓
  7. Brain the Brian*

    Does the situation in #1 meet the legal definition of a Hostile Work Environment? If so, that might be some proverbial ammunition to use with HR.

    Reply ↓
        1. amoeba*

          Hm, definitely not an expert, but gender is a protected characteristic, isn’t it? So if this guy is openly discriminatory against a majority of the women in the office, wouldn’t that at least go into that direction?

          Reply ↓
        2. bamcheeks*

          Could you say more about why not? I thought the whole point of “hostile environment” was that it created a liability for the company where they fail to prevent a work environment that was intimidating, hostile or offensive, and HR telling you you just have to deal with a guy who asks out all the women then freezes them out seems pretty textbook.

          Reply ↓
        3. Artemesia*

          Thinking in a world where ‘hostile work environment’ is misused constantly this is actually a case where it is completely accurate. A man is rejected sexually and then makes work difficult for the women involved; he is retaliating – it is a classic hostile work environment situation.

          Reply ↓
          1. Chocolate Covered Cotton*

            Thank you!

            People who just assert things (“It does not.”) without bothering to explain their opinion are annoying AF. How arrogant to assume you don’t have to explain yourself, everyone should just accept your opinion as fact.

            People who do this are almost always flat wrong. They know they can’t support their opinion so they don’t bother trying.

            Reply ↓
        5. Observer*

          It does not.

          That’s a very definitive statement. And it’s almost certainly incorrect. He is being rude and disrespectful to women *specifically* on the basis of their gender / refusal to go along with his gender expectations. And he is making even people who are not his direct targets uncomfortable, again *because of* gender and gender expectations.

          “Freezing out” people and “refusing to acknowledge” their existence might be considered severe, and it’s also pervasive, especially as he has done this to every woman in the place.

          Reply ↓
        7. Statler von Waldorf*

          You’re flat-out wrong in my jurisdiction. (Canada) This is a textbook case of a hostile work environment here. I have personally participated in a case that was less clear-cut than this get decided in the employee’s favor.

          Have you ever considered that your bad legal advice could cause harm to others who believe it? I’ve seen “free” legal advice destroy lives. Maybe you shouldn’t advise people about the law if you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          Reply ↓
      2. Productivity Pigeon*

        As someone who experienced that for a large part of her childhood, yes it is. And it’s still causes me major anxiety.

        Shoutout to all the teachers who said I was making it up or being overly sensitive.

        Reply ↓
      3. MigraineMonth*

        Bullying only counts for the US legal definition of a hostile work environment if it’s for a protected characteristic. Bullying someone because they’re prettier than you, have less money, etc. doesn’t count for the legal definition.

        Since gender is a protected characteristic, this is one of the cases that might be legally a hostile work environment, but that depends on the severity and duration of the bullying. We don’t have details to be able to tell.

        On the other hand, I think it’s a pretty clear case of sexual harassment, and HR is definitely failing in its duties not to recognize that freezing women out is retaliation and therefor a part of the sexual harassment.

        Reply ↓
        1. Freya*

          Given that the common characteristic between the iced-out people is “not in a relationship with Kevin”, the subset of people who declined not only due to personal preference but also because they were already in a relationship might also have an argument in some states that they’re being bullied due to their marital/relationship status.

          Reply ↓
      4. Nesprin*

        Not to mention, if OP needs something from Kevin, but he refuses to help her with it, that’s impeding OP’s ability to do her job.

        Reply ↓
    3. I AM a Lawyer*

      It’s retaliation and I’d argue that it’s quid pro quo harassment (making it harder to do their jobs because they rejected his advances). I’m not sure whether ignoring them would also constitute hostile environment harassment, but I wouldn’t want to be on the other side of a lawsuit that alleges that claim under these facts. It doesn’t really matter what type it is. The company probably needs to fire Kevin, but at least in in my state they’d already be on the hook because they failed to prevent harassment from occurring when they knew he was doing it and let it happen to other women.

      Reply ↓
  8. Pastor Petty LaBelle*

    By hitting on new hires creepy guy is still harassing women in the office even if he is not specifically harassing the ones who complained.

    OP definitely talk to a lawyer because your HR needs to hear the magic words “potential legal liability.”

    Reply ↓
  9. Brooklynlite*

    If you did approach your sniffling coworker and demand she fix it, what would you expect her to do? And what consequences do you imagine you could enact if she doesn’t stop sniffling to your standards?

    Reply ↓
    1. Sarah*

      I don’t understand why it’s so bad to ask her to use a tissue to dab the leak rather than sniffling it up. I’ve had my nose run often while working in an office and it’s really not hard to just use a tissue. Sometimes people don’t even realise they’re sniffling, but by god it’s annoying to listen to incessantly

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        I don’t understand why it’s so bad to ask her to use a tissue to dab the leak rather than sniffling it up.

        The LW did. And she didn’t do so. Maybe she’s a jerk. But maybe it’s not realistic. In some cases there would be so much dabbing that she’d be spending more time dabbing than anything else and would also make her nose sore. But also, some times the sniffing is not in reaction to stuff actually dripping out of one’s nose.

        Reply ↓
        1. ferrina*

          Yep. LW did all that they can do- they asked the sniffler to use a tissue. The sniffler declined, for whatever reason. Maybe because tissues won’t solve the sniffler’s issue; maybe the sniffler is just being inconsiderate. No way for us to know.

          But if LW continues to push, they will look like the jerk. Demanding that someone stop doing a common bodily function isn’t a good look (especially when it’s very possible that that person can’t stop- then you look like an unrealistic jerk). Best thing to do is find a way to ignore it. Alison’s reframing of thinking of this as an unavoidable medical issue is a great way to help spark grace and reframe it as “it’s us vs sniffle and sniffle is winning” instead of “me vs you (where you are weaponizing sniffling)” Headphones might help too.

          Reply ↓
      2. allathian*

        Yeah, AC does that. Sure, I enjoy the cool temperatures in the summer as long as the AC isn’t running too cold, but it also removes a lot of the humidity and that can lead to sniffling. The dry air dries out your mucous membranes and they react by producing more mucus.

        Reply ↓
      5. Quoth the Raven*

        I tend to sniffle when it’s cold out, especially during winter mornings or under the AC. There’s nothing I can do about it, really. There’s nothing I can blow into a tissue or even dab away, and since it’s not an allergy, medication doesn’t really help.

        Reply ↓
      6. Ellis Bell*

        You can only do that if you have a run of the mill runny nose, like the kind you get in cold and flu season; there’s nothing you can do about an actual condition, like post nasal drip where it drips down the back of the throat. The fact that the colleague is perennially sniffly suggests it’s an actual condition.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ellen N.*

          I use Vick’s inhalers for congestion; they work for me.

          I recommended them to my husband who has environmental allergies. They work for him too.

          Reply ↓
          2. Ellis Bell*

            Yeah me too – they work for garden variety congestion
            (not a condition like post nasal drip) and only then, if you’re not allergic to it.

            Reply ↓
            1. The Prettiest Curse*

              Also, over-use of anti-congestion nasal sprays can actually make congestion worse over time. So the sniff/spray/sniff cycle can actually get worse and more annoying if you use those sprays constantly.

              Reply ↓
          3. Learn ALL the things*

            Okay, but a) it’s possible that the LW’s coworker has already tried that and b) it’s not really their place to recommend medication to a coworker who hasn’t asked their advice.

            I have chronic non-allergic rhinitis. I’m not allergic to anything, but I have a constant stuffy nose anyway. There’s not really much that can be done. I’m taking all the medication my doctor has recommended and it keeps things manageable, but I’ve had to accept that I will essentially never have a not stuffy nose. Vicks inhalers can be great if you have a cold or a one-off allergic reaction, but for chronic conditions they’re not going to do much.

            Reply ↓
      7. Not on board*

        If I dabbed my nose every time I had to sniffle when the allergies hit, my nose would be a red, raw mess. The only option sometimes is to stick some tissue up the nostril and leave it there, or sniffle. Since the tissue up the nose isn’t professional, sniffling it is. You’re making assumptions about the sniffling when you have no idea what the cause is, what she’s tried, etc.

        Reply ↓
      8. blah*

        I don’t understand why people don’t think this sniffler has tried that. Maybe it hasn’t worked. Sometimes we need to use our brains and think that people have tried these “obvious” solutions.

        Reply ↓
      9. Anonys*

        Tell me you don’t have allergies without telling me you don’t have allergies.

        IF ONLY blowing my nose a few times would stop sniffling in allergy season. The alternative to sniffling would literally be trying to blow my nose every 30 seconds (often without anything actually “coming out”), an action that hinders ability to work and also makes a noise that most people find at least as disgusting as sniffling.

        Reply ↓
      10. I Have RBF*

        Because sniffing doesn’t necessarily mean that snot is running out their nose.

        I have chronic allergies. I blow my nose multiple times a day. But sometime the snot is “merely” interfering with my breathing, not trying to escape my nose. I sniffle, blow my nose, and cough all day long.

        I wish I didn’t understand this. I take two allergy meds during the day, plus another two at night just so I can breathe well enough to sleep. I have tried all kind of things to stop it, but the only one that even sort of works requires me to go to the pharmacy in person every ten days due to idiotic regulations.

        But no, it’s not a case of “just” anything…

        Reply ↓
        1. Sharon*

          It’s very entitled to complain about somebody else’s chronic health issue. Likely the person experiencing a health issue is at least as inconvenienced by it as you are. They’ve probably spent quite a bit of time on the best way to manage it. I’m not saying your discomfort isn’t real, but it’s on you to figure out a way to manage that. Google misophonia for some ideas.

          Signed,
          Person who’s been told to “stop coughing” when there is nothing I would love more than to be able to stop coughing.

          Reply ↓
    2. Starbuck*

      You really don’t have to take the punitive approach. You can explain that unfortunately you’re finding it very disruptive due to the frequency of the noise, and how much you’d appreciate it if there’s anything she could try to reduce the noise. And offer to wear earplugs or whatever else you can do as well. It’s important that you’re also doing what you can.

      I’m going to disagree with everyone that it’s rude to even try to bring it up because of course it must be bothering her just as much and she’s already tried everything to fix it and she’s clearly suffering so it’s mean to draw attention to it. Maybe she doesn’t care and she hasn’t tried much of anything and this would be the motivation she needs to find a solution.

      As someone who’s had that experience myself and with friends and family – it happens. Sometimes you get stuck and think you have to live with something or don’t realize it’s bothering others more than it’s bothering you, and you’ve been putting off dealing with it because that seems like a hassle but now it’s time.

      Reply ↓
  10. Something Witty*

    LW5, hi, are you me?
    I’m prepping for an interview this week and am trying to come.up with the right words to explain the exact situation. I’m glad Alison says it’s OK to mention the financial instability (in passing), I was mostly planning to focus on what excites me about the job I’ve applied for, but that will also help give some additional context. Best of luck to you in your sort of but maybe kind of job search!

    Reply ↓
    1. Grey Coder*

      I used wording like Alison’s when leaving a company and no one even blinked. It probably helped that it was a tech startup, so people knew that business failure is common.

      Reply ↓
    2. Cat Tree*

      So, as a hiring manager, I don’t particularly care about why you’re leaving your old job. I care about why you applied for this one. It doesn’t have to be anything profound, just enough to show that you are actually interested in thy job and have some idea about what the job is.

      I realize candidates have multiple applications out. You don’t have to prove that this job is your burning passion. But as you’re looking at jobs to apply to, you decide to apply to some but not others. Think about why you applied to this one and not some other ones. There’s your answer.

      Reply ↓
      1. Artemesia*

        This. Focus on the new job and why you want it. Only mention the old job and why you are leaving if asked and then the ‘instability’ thing is fine. Low key.

        Reply ↓
      2. Kitten*

        This is never an interview question where I work.

        I think the answer looking for a new challenge or opportunity Is great and then launch into what you like about the new job.

        Reply ↓
    3. Mockingjay*

      I’ve been in this exact situation. In interviews, I only brought it up if directly asked why I was leaving. “Oh, I enjoy my work at Current Company, but it’s experiencing funding issues.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Edwina*

        Every time I think about saying that, I worry that I’m revealing private company information that I’m not allowed to talk about (regarding publicly traded companies). I don’t ever have any insider information, but I know more than someone who isn’t currently employed there.

        Reply ↓
        1. Saberise*

          That was what I thought of as well and if the company you are interviewing for is directly or indirectly in the same industry it could be a problem too. You say that and the next thing you know your current employer isn’t winning bids or something, basically putting a nail in their coffin. Obviously, it’s not a blanket solution.

          Reply ↓
          1. Slow Gin Lizz*

            I agree and came here to the comments to say the same thing. I actually would avoid saying *anything* about your current job’s financial situation. Even if the company you’re interviewing with is completely unrelated to your current job, saying something about current company’s finances might put off your interviewers: could they trust you to be discrete about their finances if you worked there?

            I also agree with the comments here that say to focus on what you want to see in your new job. You could say that you are interested in learning how other companies do what you do, or that you have learned so much in your current role and are excited to use those skills somewhere else and also want to grow more in your role as X (this is b/c you said you don’t care about advancement, but you can still grow without advancing to management or whatever). And actually, you say that your current salary is ok, but you could tell an interviewer that you need to earn a higher salary than you currently earn (please look up more specifics on how to say this better; I don’t have time right now to word this the right way).

            Reply ↓
        2. Mockingjay*

          I work in government contracting, so funding problems and contract expirations are frequent and lack of funding is an acceptable reason for leaving. Most of the time I’ve offered “seeking new opportunities in X” as the reason why, but financial stability has come up in a couple of interviews (on both sides).

          Reply ↓
        3. Observer*

          I don’t ever have any insider information, but I know more than someone who isn’t currently employed there.

          That’s not insider information, and it’s not legally protected information. Any more than it would be legally protected information if a vendor mentioned that Public Company Y was having trouble paying its bills.

          Reply ↓
        4. Melicious*

          I get not wanting to share company information, but fear of layoffs and wage stagnation are very normal and common reasons to job search. Maybe it’s different in your industry, but I wouldn’t bat an eye at a candidate saying job stability was a reason they’re looking.

          Reply ↓
    4. SansaStark*

      When I was in a similar situation, I focused entirely on the new job. “Why do you want to leave your job?” – I don’t, but I came across the job opening/someone sent it to me/whatever, and I just it just looked too interesting for Reasons to pass up. It also puts the interview more on a level playing field – you’re looking for the right person for the role and I’m looking for the right move. Let’s keep talking to see if we match.

      Reply ↓
    5. MissGirl*

      I usually focus on the new job and why I’m excited about it but I did use Alison’s wording in one interview when asked this. I had only been at my company for six months and I didn’t want new company to think I was flaky. We’d had a large round of layoffs with another coming soon so I was looking to get out. I simply said, due to market changes, current company is undergoing several layoffs. Then I quickly pivoted to why I was excited about new company and that position.

      Honestly if you’ve been at your company a while, you may not need to worry. You can just focus on the pros of the new job.

      Reply ↓
  11. Observer*

    #2 – Harassment

    I agree that it might be worthwhile to point out the legal liability here. But also, is it possible to go higher up the ladder?

    We’ve seen more than one case where someone in HR said something blatantly stupid or did something ridiculous and then it turned out that someone higher up was not aware of the stupidity and rectified the situation when notified about it.

    The closest I can think of was the person who kept dead-naming a trans employee “out of respect for his mother”(!), and HR said that the employee is technically not discriminating because she (the employee) never said that she has a problem with trans people. When it got kicked upstairs, things got cleaned up. Fast.

    Reply ↓
    2. Anonymous cat*

      Have to bring up the HR guy who said the company didn’t pay much attention to documentation re: disability.

      Upper HR was VERY surprised to hear that!

      Reply ↓
    3. ThatOtherClare*

      Another classic example of HR lunacy:
      ‘A co-worker stole my spicy food, got sick, and is blaming me’
      Don’t worry, it all got sorted out in the update after people above HR became involved.

      Reply ↓
    4. Productivity Pigeon*

      It’s infuriating partly because Kevins KNOW how to use loopholes like these to avoid facing consequences for their creepy and abusive behavior.

      Reply ↓
      1. Samwise*

        It’s not actually a loophole. It’s discriminatory behavior based on gender, it’s a hostile work environment, and it’s retaliatory. No loophole. Just HR (or someone at a low level of HR) not doing their job.

        OP, document and have your coworkers document. Write down as well as you can remember from previous instances. Then go up the food chain — head of HR, and then if that doesn’t work, whomever the head of HR reports to.

        And if none of that helps, a report to the EEOC and a visit to an employment lawyer.

        Reply ↓
    5. blood orange*

      I’m in HR and this is the advice that I wanted to offer as well. She could probably go back to HR to challenge them on the definitions of harassment and retaliation, possibly with success (since the person(s) who told her that are just flat out wrong), but if going above their head is an option, that sounds like a good next step. It would be a good idea to check the company’s Code of Conduct first to see if there might be a violation there.

      Reply ↓
  12. anon24*

    #4 This is ridiculous on my part, but the whole idea of saying “the company needs you to” just makes me think of some awful over the top propaganda where we are not individuals, but worker bees slaving away for the greater good of the company.

    Ask not what your company can do for you, but what you can do for your company./s

    Reply ↓
    4. #4 OP*

      OP of #4 here. This cracked me up! I was trying to find a way to explain to the person who suggested it that it felt very cold and corporate but your description is so much more accurate and clear than anything I came up with. I think there could be value if it’s a ridiculous requirement (I have definitely said “I’m so sorry you have to do this super intense self evaluation, but [company] requires it so we gotta do it”) but in this case it wasn’t.

      Reply ↓
  13. nnn*

    I’m super annoyed on #2’s behalf that their workplace is somehow structure in a way that Kevin icing out a significant portion of co-workers somehow doesn’t inconvenience Kevin, but does inconvenience the people he’s icing out!

    Reply ↓
    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      I did wonder how any work is getting done. If Kevin has to work with those he is icing out does he just not do the work? Ignore the work they do? Do the work but never speak to the person? Is the work distributed in such a way that it doesn’t matter if no one everyone speak to anyone?

      Reply ↓
      2. nnn*

        I’ve had jobs where the work was distributed in a way that it didn’t matter if people don’t speak, and what would have happened in those jobs is people wouldn’t notice the lack of Kevin, to the point where the phrase “icing them out” wouldn’t even enter into the description. They’d just have a nice, peaceful, Kevin-free workday

        Reply ↓
  14. AnonForThisOne*

    LW#5

    I found a new job for a very similar reason (start up that was… well…very likely not going to be starting up much of anything much longer) and found interviewers were satisfied with my saying I was concerned about future financial stability of the company and then gave a concrete example as to what specifically concerned me.

    In my case it was that the company founders had both resigned and the company had also missed some previously stated financial targets.

    I think hiring managers just wanted to know that “financial issues” wasn’t code for not being able to get along with coworkers or being mad at the company for another reason.

    Reply ↓
  15. Nodramalama*

    As someone who has definitely started the spring sniffing, leave it alone. It doesn’t matter how many steroids I use, how many anti histamines I use, how many times I blow my nose, I will sniff. When the pollen is out, I sniff. Combined with sinusitis, I pretty much sniff constantly and it often turns into sinus infections. I’m not doing it AT anyone, it’s just the reality of my body.

    And nobody is going to come up with some magic solution I’m not already aware of. I don’t like sniffing anymore than people like hearing it and i’d find it pretty annoying if a coworker asked if I’d ever tried a nasal rinse

    Reply ↓
  16. nnn*

    For #4, in cases where you’re communicating actual expectations, the passive voice might feel more natural.

    Example: “When you’re on call, you’re expected to be reachable by phone at all times.”

    Reply ↓
  17. My oh my*

    I had something similar happen to me as #1, just on the other side. I had a coworker who liked to police everyone else (she was on the same level as me). Ran the gamet – what hours you worked, how fast you got things done, whether you ate the free food or not, and on and on and on. She definitely did it more to women, so I got the brunt of it.

    Anyway, I have all manners of eating disorders, and at the time, was on a pretty rigid eating plan. When I got hungry, I got HUNGRY. Well, my boss gave me an unexpected assignment right when I was going to eat lunch. So I did that, but then I didn’t have time to eat before our next meeting. So I brought my lunch to the meeting because I honestly thought I might faint if I didn’t eat. It was with an outside person, but we were actually clients of this person. My coworker thought it was the other way around because she wasn’t very worldly and he was an older guy in a suit, so she thought he was some sort of VIP. Point being, she chewed me out afterwards for eating in the meeting in front of him. I have a really really hard time eating in front of people, so this was really devastating to me, even though I knew I was in the right.

    Don’t be a busybody. You never know what kind of damage you might inflict on the other person.

    Reply ↓
    1. Nodramalama*

      That sounds awful to experience! But it doesn’t sound that analogous to someone who is always on their phone in meetings?

      Reply ↓
      1. JR17*

        I took it to mean that the letter writer should refrain from scolding, because LW doesn’t have the context to know why the coworker is behaving as she is.

        Reply ↓
      2. Scottish Beanie*

        My Oh My’s comment says she experienced the policing in reverse, where she’s using her phone and her colleague is micromanaging her unauthorized.

        LW1 should mind her own business unless the cell phone usage is distracting the meeting (i.e., loud noises, vibrations, etc.). I use my cell phone to take notes during meetings, so I’ve definitely been there with nosy Nellies thinking that I’m texting, and then trying to have “words“ with me like they’re my boss. I’d (politely) remind them who my actual boss is if they have a problem with my note-taking.

        Reply ↓
        1. Scottish Beanie*

          … the comment should’ve read “where she’s taking her lunch and her colleague is micromanaging her unauthorized.”

          Reply ↓
        2. Nodramalama*

          I agree that LW doesn’t have licence to say anything, but I think there is a different between policing behaviours that do not affect you, like how you eat, and behaviour that is largely regarded as rude, like being on your phone when someone is talking to you

          Reply ↓
        3. A forgetful teapot*

          Came here to say this. People have looked at her phone screen enough times (bit intrusive!) to be sure she’s not just taking notes about the meeting? I do this all the time. It’s convenient, although some people do love to police the way others use tech.
          Also have an ADHDer colleague who uses casual games (sounds off obvs) as a visual stim to support focus when listening.

          Reply ↓
          1. metadata minion*

            Depending on how the seats are arranged and how the coworker holds her phone, it may be nearly impossible to *avoid* seeing her screen. I see coworkers’ phones and laptop screens in meetings all the time without trying to look.

            Reply ↓
            1. Eldritch Office Worker*

              Same, which is why I’m very aware my old boss used to be constantly scrolling instagram when I would have liked to believe she was looking at notes and documents or something.

              There is no reasonable expectation of privacy when you’re in an intimate setting like a conference room. Coworkers shouldn’t be on your shoulder reading your texts, but they’re not going to contort themselves to pretend they can’t see what you’re doing. And expecting that when you’re the one being rude wouldn’t be a terribly defensible position.

              Reply ↓
            2. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

              Not at you per se, but definitely to LW#1, would you know what coworker was doing if you couldn’t see her screen? If the only reason you think she is checked out is because you see her scrolling, that’s an extra level of “not your problem.”

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          2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

            Speaking as someone with ADHD, seeing a game playing out of the corner of my eye throughout a meeting is *extremely* distracting in a way that a quiet fidget toy, doodling, or knitting is not. Those games are designed to catch and keep attention. You better believe I *wish* I could ignore it, but I’m not being intrusive, I just can’t ignore the bright colors, fast-paced animations, and flashing lights. It’s like sitting next to a slot machine and trying to work.

            And even at a casual glance, scrolling looks very different than note taking. For one thing, people tend to be typing when taking notes, and usually look up when not actively typing.

            Reply ↓
            1. Toupeee*

              Word to everything you said. I would try to ignore someone else’s screen but depending on how the room is configured or where I’m sitting, it might be impossible. And while your (the collective “your”) neurodivergence means that you need 5 fidget spinners, 3 sets of knitting needles, and TikTok scrolling to pay attention in a meeting, my neurodivergence means that I would find all of that incredibly distracting even as a fellow meeting attendee. So why does your right to treat the meeting like PeeWee’s PlayHouse trump my right to actually do my job?

              Reply ↓
              1. EchoGirl*

                So why does your right to treat the meeting like PeeWee’s PlayHouse trump my right to actually do my job?

                I don’t think this is fair. The point is that some people need some kind of fidget or distraction to do their jobs. It is a “competing accommodation” situation that needs to be addressed (and not by telling EITHER side to “just deal with it”), but to suggest that you’re the only one in that dynamic trying to “actually do [your] job” is unfair — people who are using fidgets are, by and large, using them because it helps them pay attention, not because they’re trying to turn a work meeting into a play house. Not to mention it’s really not a good place to start from if you actually want to have a productive conversation about finding solutions to said competing accommodation needs.

                (Please delete one if this double-posts — my first attempt disappeared.)

                Reply ↓
        4. 1-800-BrownCow*

          A manager at my workplace is always scrolling/texting/etc on his phone during meetings. Several people have noticed and commented on it because he often completely misses information that was shared, questions asked, and so on. While I’ve never seen exactly what he’s doing on his phone during those meetings, the reason I know he’s not taking notes is that we have company issued phone and can only use those phones for any work related activities, including taking notes. And everyone’s company issued phone has the same phone case (we cannot change it). He brings both his personal phone and company phone to meetings and the company phone sits in front of him while he spends his time doing stuff on his personal phone.

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    2. Jaina Solo*

      Amen to this! I bring my breakfast, lunch, snack, whatever to meetings some times depending on what’s going on that day. Nobody has said anything, nor should they.

      With regards to phone usage, I also thing LW1 shouldn’t say anything. I sometimes scroll/browse my phone or even play a game because sitting with someone just talking at a group is inherently boring and I’ll zone out. But staying active with scrolling will let me still take in what’s being said.

      LW1 should really be asking themself “is my coworker handling the action items that result from these meetings,” and if so then not worry about it. I’d also say maybe the question should be “is this coworker needed at this meeting” because a lot of the meetings I fidget in are ones I probably shouldn’t have been invited to and there is nothing for me to action on. So I really think LW is asking the wrong questions and making assumptions about their coworker instead.

      Reply ↓
  18. TDV Alinsa*

    #1 — One thing not mentioned was whether the scrolling and such was actually detrimental to their work — were they not participating in the meetings at all? Not leaving with the info they should have gotten from the meeting?

    I ask because there are several disorders — ADHD is a major one — where having a distraction actually allows someone to be able to pay *more* attention, not less. Put me in a big meeting and don’t let me have my laptop to screw around with and I’m going to miss half the meeting!

    If they’re getting their job done, and the scrolling doesn’t have big negative effects, treat them like they’re an adult and stop trying to police them.

    Reply ↓
    1. fluffy*

      Yeah, as someone with ADHD and anxiety I sometimes use scrolling on my phone to help me focus on things or to help with anxiety issues. It looks like I’m not engaged at all but instead it’s the way that I help myself keep engaged to begin with.

      I’m a little shocked at how far I had to come down in the comments to even see anyone bring this up.

      Reply ↓
    2. notjen*

      +1

      Definitely could be the case whether the person realises it or not! (A lot of adults aren’t diagnosed but will do things like this without realising it’s an effective way to remain productive in the workplace.)

      Reply ↓
      1. ADHDFox*

        +1 for this. I wanted to mention that the “scroller” might have an issue with engagement generally (and that is something that might need a mangerial fix – i.e. too many meetings?) But the conversation might be around “this might bug some people/not help the optics around your work, let’s brainstorm some alternative solutions”

        Reply ↓
      2. Eldritch Office Worker*

        You can also be distractable/anxious/prefer multi-tasking without ADHD. I have ADHD but I’m getting a little sick of this being on every post as an excuse to what is pretty blatantly rude behavior. It makes us sound like we can’t function without being attached to a screen at all times. There are alternatives to phone scrolling. And we’re not supposed to armchair diagnose.

        Reply ↓
        1. I wear my sunglasses at night*

          Seriously yes. It also ignores the swath of people (who have ADHD or neurodivergence or don’t) that would make being exposed to a chronic scroller *incredibly* distracting in a meeting. Why are their needs ignored?

          Reply ↓
          1. EchoGirl*

            I don’t think people are trying to ignore needs, but I do think the question is, what’s a solution that would work at least reasonably well for both sides? The solution can’t be “everyone just sits still and does nothing” because that’s the same problem flipped on its head (one group being accommodated at the expense of another).

            A good place to start might be a less-distracting fidget (for example, allowing fidget toys but asking people to stay off electronic devices), but it seems like some people find even those things distracting, so I’m not sure if that would be considered enough or where one goes from there if it’s not.

            Reply ↓
    3. Allonge*

      This – I get that messing with your phone / laptop is not a good look but what is the actual impact beyond ‘I am looking at someone being rude’?

      I know that can be annoying – it’s more that I have found it’s worth it to specify to myself what exactly the issue is before raising it to others.

      If they are not paying attention, are distracted by what they are looking at (or worse, distracting others by reacting to it), need stuff repeated, ask irrelevant questions or have trouble remembering what was said in the meeting, that is an actual work problem worth raising. ‘You are being slightly annoying’ is very often not.

      Reply ↓
    4. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      If someone actually has ADHD you could ask them to choose a fidget that’s less distracting to others and that doesn’t make it look like they’re just ignoring the meeting. My wife and kid both have ADHD! I get it, even though I think it’s unlikely that’s the situation here. But get a discreet fidget.

      Reply ↓
      1. ASD always*

        Agreed – a distraction may well be necessary for them to focus, but it needing to be this distraction to the exclusion of all other options is unlikely.

        I often need to stim, but some stims aren’t appropriate in certain settings, and some aren’t healthy ever. The answer isn’t to continue to make people uncomfortable and/or potentially injure myself, it’s to find alternatives that do the job so we can coexist.

        Reply ↓
        1. hiraeth*

          Right, this. I have no end of ways to trick my brain into focusing, but not all of them are meeting-appropriate. And it genuinely matters that I appear engaged in meetings! Some poor soul is trying to talk to me, and it’s flat-out disconcerting if I appear to be fully focused on something not them. It’s not just rude, it makes their task harder. So I bring a subtle fidget I can use outside their line of sight, or even my childhood standby of drawing pictures in the air under the desk with my toes.

          Reply ↓
      2. Ooops forgot to breathe again*

        Yes! Can we please stop using this as an excuse for scrolling on phones during inappropriate times? I’m diagnosed as well. I get it, you need it, but I also need to not be distracted by your accidental music blares, bright slot machine-like lights, and your giggling at whatever. There’s knitting, there’s typing, there’s doodling, there’s fidget spinners, there’s writing, there’s playing air guitar, etc etc, which are both helpful and not distracting to OTHERS.

        Time and Place. Behavioral Code Switching. Everything has it’s time. Yada yada yada.

        Reply ↓
    5. Hyaline*

      I would consider–though it may not be the LW’s place–that it could be detrimental to *others*. The screen movement of a phone or laptop will draw my eye every flipping time, and it’s a real distraction. I would adjust by not sitting by Phone Scroller, but that might not always be possible, and if lots of people find it distracting, not everyone can avoid sitting by her. If LW or another coworker does find it distracting, they can and should say so, kindly and discreetly, to Phone Scroller, who ought to be able to find another stim if that’s what she needs.

      Reply ↓
      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        This! OP doesn’t say that their coworker is distracting them, so the letter comes across that OP is being a busybody who thinks coworker should pay more attention. But if the issue actually *is* that OP is distracted by the scrolling, then it would be fine for OP to – kindly, politely – ask coworker to not do it during meetings. Otherwise, OP, just leave it alone.

        Reply ↓
    6. Samwise*

      Speaking as an instructor: screens are distracting to people around the person using them. If someone doesn’t want to pay attention in class, that’s their lookout — I’m not repeating stuff that Yes, Will Be On The Test. But when you’re distracting other students, I’m shutting that down.

      Reply ↓
    7. ferrina*

      ADHDer here. ADHD folks may find that they need additional stimulation to engage. It’s not the same thing as a distraction.

      Think of attention as a spectrum. If something is too boring, you disengage. If something is too stimulating, you get overwhelmed and disengage. But there is a window of engagement, where something is not too boring and not to overstimulating. This is true of both ADHD and neurotypical (NT) folks. The difference between ADHD and NT is that ADHD folks have a smaller window of rightness, and it’s usually off-kilter (or even two small windows of rightness that are off-kilter).

      If something is too boring for an ADHDer, they’ll add stimulation to keep their brain engaged. Of course, some ways of stimulation are better than others, and it’s on the ADHD person/person that needs stimulation to find the best way. There’s two considerations at play here- 1) distracting others and 2) distracting yourself.
      1. Distracting others means that you need to find stimulation that doesn’t detract from others’ experience- this is where doodling and fidget toys are often suggested, because it’s something that other people don’t usually find distracting.
      2. Distracting yourself means that you’ve found something so stimulating that it’s taking away focus from the thing you were originally trying to focus on. This is especially true if you are doing something that reinforces certain behaviors through dopamine hits (example- winning a game or following a link), or something that requires a certain amount of focus in order to be able to participate in the activity (example- reading under your desk while listening).

      The phone scrolling is failing on the first level- it’s distracting to others and is clearly seen as rude (it’s commonly known that scrolling on your phone while someone is talking is perceived as rude, and optics are something that need to be taken into account). We don’t know how it’s performing on the second level- there isn’t any info about the coworker’s performance.

      All that said- LW isn’t really in a position to call out the behavior. They could do one-off things: “Hey Jane, I’d like your input on this agenda item” then hold eye contact and talk to Jane specifically. Or they could speak to the group: “Hey team, this next item is really important, so I’m going to ask that we not have any multitasking for this agenda item.”
      But they can’t really make a blanket rule that no phones are allowed in the meeting. And they don’t have the authority to set limits on how often the coworker is checking their phone.
      If they have a really strong relationship with the coworker, they could pull her aside and say something like “Hey, you’ve been on your phone a lot in these meetings. What’s up with that?” She’ll say something and you’ll listen. Then say: “I don’t think you realize, but having your phone out so much makes people think that you aren’t paying attention. It could impact your relationship with people, if it hasn’t already. Is there a different way to [meet whatever need] in the meeting?” But that conversation would require a high level of mutual respect, and I suspect that LW doesn’t have that rapport with this coworker.

      Reply ↓
      1. Data Bear*

        I agree with almost everything you’ve said here, but I wouldn’t say that neurodivergent attention windows are *smaller,* just *different.* I see it as basically an impedance mismatch issue.

        Different people’s brains absorb and process information at different speeds, and it’s not something you can control. It’s sorta like some people listen at 90 MPH and some only listen at 30. If everybody in the meeting listens at 55 MPH, great, but if you’ve got a room where some people are fast listeners and some people are slow listeners, you can’t satisfy everyone. If you go too fast for slow listeners, they get lost, and if you go too slow for fast listeners, they get bored.

        This is not anybody’s fault, and it usually makes sense to got at a pace where nobody’s getting lost, but I think it becomes a problem because we don’t acknowledge that this difference exists and make allowances for it. If Jane’s on her phone because she’s a fast listener and she’s giving herself additional input to avoid either becoming agonizingly bored or lost in her thoughts, I think the only real problem is that she’s sitting in the wrong place relative to LW1.

        I’d say the best solution would be to change our social norms so that we don’t expect that everyone speaks at the “right” pace and that conventional signals of engagement are therefore are purely determined by interest and thus reflect the audience’s level of respect for the speaker, so it’s “rude” not to perform attentiveness in meetings. Instead, I think we’d be much better off if we expected that people will vary in their communication needs and level of engagement, so the norm is that we arrange meetings so that people who need to avoid distractions can easily focus entirely on the speaker, and people who need extra input or who benefit from multitasking can do that without fear of impinging on their neighbors. And that none of these things are better or worse than the others, they’re just differences that we accommodate because people are diverse.

        Reply ↓
        1. ferrina*

          I think we’re going to be disagreeing on this one.
          I’m an extremely fast learner/processor, and I also regularly design and teach different courses.

          Most people who are on their phone are not paying attention. As a presenter, it’s very frustrating because people are essentially artificially slowing their learning by not paying attention. Then everyone else has to sit there through repeat information. It’s rude. And as a presenter, it’s simply not possible to accommodate everyone’s learning styles to a tee (even assuming I know everyone’s styles, which I never do!).

          And many people are going to wildly overestimate their ability to multitask. They think that because they are physically in a place, that their brain is absorbing, but most people’s brains can’t absorb two verbal information streams at a time. It’s the same as having two conversations at once- you can sort of do it, but usually that because you’re rapidly switching between conversations, not because you are actually doing two conversations at the same time. Can some people do it some of the time? Yes. But most people simply can’t.
          When you see someone with a phone in a meeting, it’s much more likely that they are being distracted than they are actually tracking both things. Sometimes they are! But it’s reasonable to assume the more likely scenario.

          As a fast learner, I can’t really blame someone for reaching a logical and likely conclusion (that I’m being distracted). That’s why I either tell the people in advance what is happening, or pick an activity that has better optics (like doodling).

          Reply ↓
          1. Data Bear*

            I’d say we’re more in agreement than you think.

            I was thinking more about meetings than classes, and less about being on a phone specifically than of just some kind of stim / extra input stream. (Including things like doodling, which, sadly, I’ve had people scold me for. You just can’t win with some folks.)

            Reply ↓
  19. Dark Macadamia*

    LW3, based on the short sleeves and unused blanket comment I guess this doesn’t happen to you, but when the air touching my nose is cold I start sniffling no matter how bundled up I am. It’s not a body warmth problem, it’s a… “nose condensation” problem? (I have no idea lol)

    I’m not sure what could be done about it aside from something like wearing a scarf over her face in the office.

    Reply ↓
    1. nnn*

      I’m super curious whether wearing a mask is sufficient to stop the cold air from touching your nose, or whether it has to specifically be a warm layer like a scarf?

      Reply ↓
      1. ThatOtherClare*

        Not the OP but for me the problem is thermodynamics. The warm air in my lungs can hold a higher moisture content than the cold dry air outside me. So when the air hits my nose and the temperature drops all the water condenses out as liquid. The only solution is warm, low humidity air in front of my nose. A warm nose won’t help, since it’s the cold air itself that won’t carry the extra moisture.

        Since most people’s noses don’t do it I can only assume there’s some kind of structural issue that slows the air and prevents it from fully escaping while still warm. Presumably some sort of genetic adaptation for preserving water in cold environments. I don’t know if there’s a surgery for it. I’m not sure where I’d even start researching, to be honest.

        Reply ↓
      2. Scottish Beanie*

        I have allergies; wearing a mask everywhere works very well for me. I wear one on planes and in busses, in offices, and anywhere there is air-conditioning, as well as during allergy season, or else my sinuses will go haywire. I now know how annoying constant sniffling is…I live and learn.

        Reply ↓
        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          Wearing a mask doesn’t help me when the issue is the temperature differential, but it does help me inhale less pollen when I’m outside! At this point, people sometimes ask if I have Covid because it’s unusual to see someone in my area wearing a mask, particularly outdoors. Nope, not Covid-19, Cedar-24! (And every year!)

          Reply ↓
      3. Lola*

        For me, wearing a mask would definitely not help. I get sniffly with cold air like Dark Macadamia described, if I put on a mask or scarf they trap too much umidity and my nose gets runny instead, and that will make the skin around my nostrils raw. Sniffling is the “less bad” solution.

        Reply ↓
        1. JSPA*

          During bad allergy season that coincides with damp weather, I have sometimes done o k with surgical gauze inside a mask. The drip gets absorbed while the nose and upper lip and chin stay dry and unchafed. This only works if you don’t have to talk, though. Useful for public transport, and deep dives on the computer. But this is only relevant if the person asking for advice is the person with the drippy nose! It’s not really something the letter writer can suggest.

          Reply ↓
  20. Sniffly Migraine Anon*

    I’m sorry LW 3, this is likely a frustrating situation for both of you. Unfortunately I deal sometimes with both sides of this – constantly runny nose due to extremely dry winter air and migraines. This is more commiseration as I am currently looking for a new employer that either lets me work fully remote or hybrid, but with flexible times/seating in the office. I have not managed to properly resolve this in office.
    In my last workplace I had unfortunately one direct coworker eating an impressive amount of raw vegetables and fruit for about 3 hours in the morning and on bad migraine days I was close to sprinting for the nearest exit at the hour mark. I only powered through because it was only a few times per quarter and my team lead was completely inflexible about seating arrangements, so I mostly went with music as well.
    If your workplace is not as strict about assigned seating and your boss generally reasonable, I hope you can move to a different area. Best of luck!

    Reply ↓
  21. JR17*

    For #3 – Given how pervasive the sniffling is, I wonder if it isn’t actually a runny/stuffy nose at all, but actually something like a tic. I bring that up because, while I understand that tics may be treatable, it certainly isn’t as simple as putting on a sweatshirt or taking allergy meds. Frustratingly, for example, tics can be a symptom of ADHD, but then they can also be a side effect of ADHD meds! I bring this up not to diagnose your coworker, but to support Alison’s point that, if it were an easy fix, she probably would have fixed it by now. I know it’s annoying, but I hope you can have empathy or at least understanding for her. And +1 to loop earphones and/or moving desks.

    Reply ↓
    1. notjen*

      +1

      Absolutely could be a tic or stim or suchlike.

      I go through a phase of throat clearing, as does my youngest son. Absolutely drives me nuts when he does it but I know he can’t help it. I’m sure my own throat clearing drives everyone else nuts but I genuinely cannot stop it, nor can he, so the noise cancelling headphones come out and everyone is happy.

      A lot of phones have displays/lights so you can see you’re receiving a call even if you can’t hear the phone ringing, and most people ring long enough that you can either remove your headphones or turn off noise cancellation.

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    2. H.Regalis*

      I was wondering if it could be a tic as well. I had a coworker who I’m pretty sure has a tic where she sniffs. Tics can just randomly pop up with no apparent cause.

      Bottom line, whatever it is, it doesn’t seem like it’s something the coworker can control, and like Alison said, I very much doubt she’s sniffing all the time for the hell of it. You gotta find a way to deal with it.

      Reply ↓
  22. Irish Teacher.*

    LW1, just to say I have a colleague who does this sometimes, spends meetings on her phone and I am pretty sure in her case, it’s due to ADHD (or something similar). She clearly struggles with meetings and finds it difficult to remain quiet and still. She is paying attention to the meeting. I know because she refers to stuff later, giving more detail than any of the rest of us remember.

    Not saying this is the case for your coworker, just to mention there can be reasons that aren’t about disinterest, lack of engagement or deliberate rudeness.

    Reply ↓
    1. Spartacus Bagel's Wife*

      Though if this is the case, I think someone should still be suggesting something other than phone scrolling as it will rarely read as anything but disinterested.

      Reply ↓
      1. BellaStella*

        Agree with this on how it appears as disinterested. My grandboss does this and it is actual disinterest when she is not the centre of attention; and has been reprimanded by her boss but she still does it. It annoys most of the team but we mainly ignore it as she is the head of the team. Agree that is you are running the meeting asking people to pay attention and not be on phones is reasonable.

        Reply ↓
      2. Ellis Bell*

        Probably not, in the teaching profession. Well-trained teachers have a good radar for potential ADHD and awareness of strategies.

        Reply ↓
        1. Spartacus Bagel's Wife*

          Sure, and then they should be helping them trial other strategies because phone scrolling will appear disinterested to most people in most situations and it’s better they establish those alternatives while they are still in education (read: a potentially more supportive & patient environment) then somewhere it can be misconstrued and have the potential to impact them negatively.

          Reply ↓
            1. Ellis Bell*

              Rereading, you seem to be talking about students? Students aren’t allowed to use their phones at all in most schools, and don’t often take part in meetings.

              Reply ↓
  23. Figaro*

    Any chance she takes notes on her phone? It doesn’t sound like it as you mention scrolling but I was once picked up on having my phone out during a meeting. I didn’t have a notebook or laptop and people had identified points I wanted to remember so I made notes on my phone. (It was more an event that a meeting and I hadn’t planned to take notes, which was a mistake, but easy to take notes on a phone.)

    Reply ↓
    1. ChurchOfDietCoke*

      Came to say this! I usually revert to an old-fashioned notebook but these days it’s so easy to jot things into OneNote or Evernote on my phone or pop things onto my to-do list (or even start writing an email about something, or adding a reminder to my calendar) and it’s synced to the cloud before I get back to my computer to tidy it up.

      Reply ↓
    2. Enai*

      I do this at medical appointments, otherwise I’ll understand everything the doc says, agree to do $Thing and immediately forget at least half of the advice upon leaving the consultation room.

      Reply ↓
  24. Irish Teacher.*

    LW4, I think phrasing the message as a question – could you…?, would you mind…? or adding something like “…when you get a chance” is more softening than “company expects you to…”

    I guess the point is to highlight it’s not you, as YOU, making the demand; it’s just a requirement of the job, but it sounds a bit odd, unless it’s a norm of your company.

    Reply ↓
    1. Chocolate Covered Cotton*

      When the context is giving instructions to new employees about how they’re to do their jobs, why would one use any kind of softening language? This is the time to be clear and direct.

      Reply ↓
  25. cheesegrater*

    #3 – I have very bad year round allergic rhinitis. I sniff a lot! I can’t do anything about it and am not doing it for my own entertainment. I know it sounds horrible, I can hear it too! But other people only have to listen to it, I have to listen to it and ALSO feel like someone is cheesegrating the inside of my sinuses. Put some headphones on, you’ll be fine.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ellis Bell*

      I’m genuinely baffled at all the comments that are assuming people are actually sniffing for fun, or that they aren’t acutely aware of something so uncomfortable as your breathing being impeded. I am really lucky in that I can always deal with a sniffle without actually having to sniff, but I know not everyone’s nose works as well as mine!

      Reply ↓
      1. Not on board*

        A++ comment. The amount of people with no sympathy for how uncomfortable the sniffling itself is for the person doing it, like they wouldn’t do something about it if they could. I get it’s annoying to hear but at least you’re not experiencing the discomfort that the sniffler is experiencing.

        Reply ↓
    2. AllergiesSuck*

      Yes, same. Sniff and sneeze and cough and wheeze and…
      year round seasonal allergies + asthma + chronic respiratory infections. Yay me.

      Reply ↓
  26. Misophone*

    I’ve seen a few comments below about how some people aren’t able to stop sniffing, and one saying that it might be a tic. Perhaps so, and perhaps it can be dealt with by blowing in some cases. Whichever it may be, sniffing can be a problem for a significant number of people:

    https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2023-03-23-what-s-your-sound-barrier-new-study-finds-nearly-one-five-people-uk-find-everyday

    From time to time I find that sniffing results in conversations like this:

    – Would you like a tissue? [offering a packet]
    – No thanks, I don’t need one.
    – Would you mind not sniffing, please? Sorry, but I find it very uncomfortable.
    – Er….Whatever…

    The worst one was at a conference where the response was “How dare you! You have insulted me!” in a tone of voice suggesting that the sniffer’s next remark would be an invitation to a fist fight in the car park (I left before it went that far).

    Reply ↓
    1. Expectations*

      The idea that we’re sniffling for the fun of it or just to make you (the person complaining) uncomfortable/unhappy/irritated is infuriating. I would probably give someone (adult) a dirty look and walk away if they complained. They’re not 12, don’t act like it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Misophone*

        The idea that I think you’re all sniffing for the fun of of it or to irritate me is infuriating. I think sniffers sniff because they feel the need to (plenty of reasons why they might are discussed on this thread) and they don’t realise that it could be an issue for anyone else. If I found out I was doing something annoying without realising it, and someone asked me politely to not do it, I would certainly give some thought to some means of avoiding the problem.

        > I would probably give someone (adult) a dirty look and walk away if they complained

        The dirty look’s not great, but walking away would probably help. ;-)

        Reply ↓
  27. Productivity Pigeon*

    LW#3: you have my sincere sympathy.
    I have had days when a coworker’s unusually loud typing has driven me crazy. (Or at least, it FELT like they were typing very loudly…)

    Reply ↓
  28. Helen W*

    Serial sniffers are my absolute WORST pet peeve. Personally, I just consider it a bad habit. If I’m needing to sniff, I blow my nose and hey presto, no more sniffing.

    It’s rampant here in the UK and I am eternally grateful for my headphones because I would go mad without them.

    Reply ↓
    4. Productivity Pigeon*

      My nose runs constantly. Constantly.

      I can’t help it. It’s not enough of a medical condition that I want to take medication for it.

      I don’t sniff all the time but I do sniff on occasion.

      Most people don’t do things specifically to annoy others, you know.

      Reply ↓
      1. a trans person*

        Sitting here repeatedly blowing my nose into the many, many tissues I have to buy for myself because they aren’t provided, and these comments just hurt, yeah

        Reply ↓
    5. Not on board*

      Yeah, rhinitis, post-nasal drip, and horrendous allergies are a “bad habit”. Count yourself lucky you don’t have to experience this. Wiping your nose constantly leads to a red and raw nose. For me, that then leads to cold sores. The sniffling is preferable. I don’t enjoy it – the sound annoys me and I also have to experience the discomfort.

      Reply ↓
    6. Irish Teacher.*

      It’s not “just a bad habit” in a lot of cases though. I understand that it’s annoying, particularly of course, for the person doing it, but it is usually not “just a bad habit” and considering it that is going to be often, if not usually, factually inaccurate and a little uncharitable.

      Reply ↓
    8. Turquoisecow*

      Wow this is an immensely insulting and unhelpful comment. I hope you aren’t around people with illnesses often, and you are happy in your bubble of people with impeccable health.

      Reply ↓
    9. Learn ALL the things*

      I’m so glad to know that my life long chronic illness, for which I have tried a variety of treatments up to and including surgery, none of which can fully cure me or resolve the issue, is your personal pet peeve.

      Reply ↓
    10. amoeba*

      Eh, I mean – I’m actually pretty sure that there are indeed people who just… don’t bother blowing their noses and sniff (including pretty bad sound effects) constantly instead. I’ve met some of those! It’s generally easy enough to tell if they do actually stop after being offered a tissue… I have, admittedly, on occasion also been one of them, because I forgot to bring enough tissues and there was nobody around to ask and no bathroom in sight to get some paper.

      The problem, of course, is that there’s no way to tell from the outside, so no way at all to ask those people to stop without also targeting the ones who do have a genuine condition – so yeah, I might still be annoyed, but I’ll keep it to myself. Except potentially offering a tissue if I have one, because I’ve been quite happy to be on the receiving end of that. But LW has already tried that, so there’s not much left to do except accept it.

      Reply ↓
    12. I Have RBF*

      If I’m needing to sniff, I blow my nose and hey presto, no more sniffing.

      LOL.

      I’m glad you don’t have the type of chronic issue that causes to to sniff constantly.

      Me? I blow my nose quite often, even when it doesn’t produce anything. I still end up sniffing when I have just blown my nose and nothing has come out. It’s in the back of the nose/throat.

      Count your blessings.

      Reply ↓
  29. FashionablyEvil*

    #4–I only use that sort of formulation when I’m making it clear that it’s not just me, it’s the company that requires it (things like how we fill out time sheets, comply with other policy/regulatory requirements.) It’s definitely an escalation in tone/seriousness.

    Reply ↓
  30. ArchivesPony*

    #3 you have my sympathy. I had a coworker who constantly cleared his throat… with his mouth open. every.five.minutes (no joke, I counted). He even acknowledged it! but he refused to anything about. The only answer for me was leaving (it’s not the main reason I left but still).

    So I feel for you!

    Reply ↓
    1. Seashell*

      I have a family member who frequently clears his throat due to acid reflux. Medication hasn’t fixed it.

      I’m not sure what sort of fixing you were expecting your co-worker to do.

      Reply ↓
      1. ArchivesPony*

        Close his mouth for one. That helped cut the sound in half (he did this for about two weeks after I complained to our boss, the sound was absolutely horrendous and it was disgusting. Then he started back up again keeping his mouth open). He was just a man baby who refused to take medication (he fully acknowledged he refused to take medication)

        Reply ↓
    2. metadata minion*

      I’m sure I’m annoying my coworkers with my constant throat-clearing and periodic coughing fits. I’m also annoying myself, and getting increasingly concerned. Alas, so far nothing I’ve tried makes much of a difference and the doctor can’t find anything diagnosably wrong other than “wow, lungs definitely shouldn’t do that”.

      Reply ↓
    3. Observer*

      He even acknowledged it! but he refused to anything about.

      That’s almost certainly not true. Sure, I believe that he “refused” to do anything that *you* could see, or that *you* approved of. But that’s a very different thing. And even if he said “nope, not gonna do anything”, that does not mean that he was “refusing to do anything.” It is almost completely certain that he meant “I’m not going to discuss this with you and I’ve done whatever is reasonable for me to do.”

      Reply ↓
        1. ArchivesPony*

          YES. He closed his mouth for about two weeks after I complained to my boss about how bad it was. It helped tremendously! Then he went back to his old ways.

          Reply ↓
      2. ArchivesPony*

        He literally said (to me) he knows he’s doing it but he doesn’t want to go to a doctor because to HIM it wasn’t a problem. Even though both me and our other coworker had issues with it.

        Reply ↓
  31. bamcheeks*

    LW3, I don’t think you can control your co-worker’s sniffing, but I do think that “I have a migraine and low-level irritants which I can usually ignore are really stressing me out” is actually a very, very good reason to take half a day off!

    You’re kind of framing this as if taking half a day off is an unreasonable overreaction, but you have a migraine. You don’t have to be at “physically cannot cope” to use sick leave: if you are finding it’s difficult to concentrate or you don’t have your usual ability to shrug off office annoyances, I would consider that a sign that you are sick and stepping away from work is probably a good idea.

    Reply ↓
      1. I Have RBF*

        This.

        I get migraines. I am useless when I have a migraine. ANY sound aggravates it. Bright screens aggravate it.

        If you have a migraine, do yourself a favor and go home.

        Reply ↓
    3. LW3*

      I really appreciate this. Honestly, I’m usually pretty good about deciding to take time off if I need it, but a combination of things (upcoming vacation, running lower than I’d like on sick days) made me way more hesitant than usual to leave. Plus, the sniffling is so common that it felt like it really would be a huge overreaction. But you’re 100% right, and hopefully it’s something I’ll remember if this happens again.

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        My sympathies. But what you are reacting to when choosing to go home but the *migraine*. The reaction to the sniffing seems to be to be a signal that you’re very close to “can’t deal anymore” territory. In other words, is a *symptom*.

        If you get migraines regularly, I hope you have some luck in finding and reducing the triggers.

        Reply ↓
  32. El l*

    OP4:
    Yeah, let’s take a common tactic in office life – depersonalization – to a bizarre place.

    It makes sense to use that wording if you’re being accused of favoritism and you have written company policy behind you. For everything else, it’ll strike like you’re at best cold and clueless. Nothing good.

    Reply ↓
  33. ReallyBadPerson*

    Regarding Awful Kevin, can you not simply talk about his behavior openly? “Lisa, it looks like Kevin isn’t speaking to you because you rejected him. Maybe Penelope can handle this. Penelope, are you okay to get the info we need from Kevin so that we can finish this up?” And say this loudly, while he is in earshot.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ellis Bell*

      I’m not sure how well organised everyone is as a group, but I would be documenting the crap out of this and making sure everyone else is too. Every cut direct, every incivility, every dropped ball that happens because Kevin is being a toddler. I think the HR person simply thinks Kevin is keeping his distance a bit more, but being basically civil, after a rejection.

      Reply ↓
    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I was gonna say, where the reply suggests this:
      As for what you can say to new, unsuspecting colleagues, you can tell them up-front what to expect. For example: “Just a heads-up, Kevin is friendly to every female new hire, then asks them out. If he’s rejected, he ices them out and refuses to acknowledge their existence after that. Several of us have gone to HR about it, with no change. It’s been very uncomfortable for some of us and we wish someone had warned us.”

      Yes, say that to the female new hires. While he’s talking to a group of them. :P

      Reply ↓
      1. Czhorat*

        It’s one of those tough situations in which being passive aggressive – or even aggressive aggressive – may be the only way. Creeps like Kevin thrive on the expectation that nobody wants to make a scene and call him out on his BS. The only solution is sometimes to make it painfully awkward for him. Call him out every time it happens. Tell everyone – not just women, but men as well – that this is what to expect from Kevin. He’ll make romantic overtures towards female-presenting who crosses his path and then pout when they inevitably turn him down.

        Make it his problem.

        Reply ↓
        1. MsM*

          Yeah, if HR refuses to intervene when Kevin cuts people out of the loop for slighting him, they’re not really in a position to suddenly decide there’s a problem when everyone just decides to steer clear of Kevin and make it clear why they’re doing so. (Doesn’t mean they won’t, but the lawyers will find their criteria for taking action awfully interesting.)

          Reply ↓
  34. Hyaline*

    #5, if citing your company’s financial situation feels uncomfortable, you could say something like “I love what I do, but opportunities where I am currently are very limited” (true—they might shutter or do mass layoffs) or “My work at company X is very fulfilling, but I would love to (fill in details about the job you’re applying for that do interest you so you can hopefully pivot that direction).”

    Reply ↓
  35. Gustavo*

    1: yes it’s absolutely rude in most cases but if this isn’t your direct report or a presentation you are leading then don’t worry about it. Basically you are implying that because your supervisor won’t address it it’s up to you to save the day, and it’s not your place.
    2: this guy is a creep and is sexually harassing every woman there. Go back to HR with the largest group of you possible and tell them with these terms: “we are actively being sexually harassed still by this guy, we rejected his sexual advances on us that took place at work and he is now retaliating by creating a hostile work environment. We are filing a formal complaint”. If nothing else is done, lawyer up. Just simply warning the new women isn’t enough because he will still be doing it now that they will reject him sooner. HE NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED! Don’t let your organization get away with this and don’t let him.
    3: I totally get your perspective. I have misophonia and some trigger sounds are unbearable and some of them the person can’t help. However that’s my problem, not theirs (however, as an aside, it absolutely IS their issue to fix if they are doing something in their control like chomping gum or eating crunchy food in a shared space…) and your person is sniffling. As a chronic allergy sufferer with a chronic illness that actually causes inflammation in my nose, I too have to sniffle more than the average person. I do my best to not be annoying in shared spaces but I have to sniffle. It’s not congestion so a nose blow won’t usually help, it’s literally the inflammation and closing down of the nostril (sniffing does temporarily open it). I am also 99.9% sure this person is more self conscious about it than you’d ever know. Find management techniques for yourself (foam earplugs, music with earbuds, loops or flares, etc) and just try to remember she cannot help it.

    Reply ↓
  36. Prorata*

    In re. Sniffles: Long, long ago, when I was single-digit age, my mother asked Pediatrician “what can we do about Prorata’s constant sniffles?” Doc turns to me and asks “Prorata, tell me about your runny nose”. My response:”What runny nose?”, followed with a good sniffle-snort.

    Doc laughed and told Mom:”It bothers you more than it bothers him; if it becomes a problem for him, give antihistamine.”

    Fifty years later, my mother still tells that story, and I still have a constant mild runny nose. Allergy to something; I don’t know, topsoil.

    My point, and I do have one, is that Sniffle-person may not even notice they are doing it.

    And FWIW, my wife often is thrusting the box of tissues at me saying “Use the ^%^*^*^ things!!!” :-)

    Reply ↓
  37. HonorBox*

    Oh wow. I hate Kevin is letter 2. It is already problematic to ask out a coworker. Even more so to ask out EVERY coworker. Then to treat them poorly when you’re rebuffed is incredibly juvenile and unprofessional. I can possibly see feeling embarrassed and avoiding someone for a bit, but you can’t freeze them out and not work with people.

    And as much as I hate Kevin, I think I hate HR even more. It should have been shut down the first time, but that it has gone on with multiple women in the workplace, HR is enabling harassment.

    I second the suggestion to consult a lawyer. They’ll likely give you language to get HR to move. Kevin needs to be gone yesterday.

    Reply ↓
  38. Gary (she/they)*

    Re #4, part of my work includes doing assessments where a colleague has to provide information to me. In those cases, I’ve found that if I say “I need to know x, y, and z” it sounds less like a specific work requirement and more like I’m curious but it’s not mandatory. Some people (typically those who are already not particularly interested in working with me on this assessment) just don’t provide the requested info. However, if I say “we need to document x, y, and z” it does come across as more formal and mandatory but not in a “she’s being a mean stickler” way, more of a “this is just how it is and we all need to deal with it” way, and they do provide the required info. So, not softer, but because it seems like a Fact Of Nature rather than an option, it’s more successful in the end.

    Reply ↓
  39. Elzie*

    Re: the sniffler – if allowed, try a small fan near you, it doesn’t even have to be pointed on you but the white noise may help you at the times you don’t want music.

    Reply ↓
  40. Delta Delta*

    #5 – I think the advice here is good, but perhaps with modifiers. If it’s an industry with a small footprint and everyone knows each other, or the companies are familiar with one another, it may fall flat to say too much about the general state of the current company. I think modifying to say that OP loves her job, but is looking for growth and a better salary is perfectly fine without suggesting her current company is somehow unstable.

    I was once on a hiring team in a company in a very small professional community. Applicant made several statements about his current company being “about ready to go under” and some other similar statements. As an interviewer I found this off-putting; because it was a small community I knew the principals of the other company fairly well, and it felt very awkward to me to receive this kind of information. Also, I had reason to believe what this person was saying simply wasn’t true (because, small professional community). That didn’t help with that person’s candidacy. Had he said that he was hoping to stay in the industry but potentially make a higher salary, that would have gone much further.

    Reply ↓
    1. Lady Danbury*

      This is a great point about framing. Imo, something like “I’m concerned about the company’s financial stability due to [x objective and publicly available fact]” will come across a lot better than pure speculation and/or sharing information that may not be publicly available. For example, layoffs may be public information in small industry. Losing a major client may not be.

      Reply ↓
  41. Michelle Smith*

    LW1: I find that kind of scrolling and tapping on a phone distracting and rude as well, but as someone with ADHD I do empathize with people who do it as a mechanism for paying attention. It may seem counterintuitive and may not be her situation, but sometimes people are doing mindless things on their phone or doodling or whatever so they can stay awake and pay attention, not because they’re intending to be rude. So unless you know for sure she intends to be dismissive, try and give her the benefit of the doubt. There could be other reasons.

    Reply ↓
      1. Czhorat*

        I also have severe ADHD, and I keep a couple of fidget toys in my pockets; the least obtrusive are a smooth contact coin and a “knuckle roller”, both in copper with a very comforting weight. They’re small enough to fit quietly into a pocket and rolling the coin around your fingers is a quiet and small enough activity that usually nobody will notice, and if they do it’s small enough to not be distracting.

        Reply ↓
        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          I do little fidgets too. I wear a fidget ring at all times which is probably the most discreet coping mechanism I have. But I’ll also doodle, or take notes, or something else where I can be nodding and looking up and making it clear I’m engaged so people trying to talk to me aren’t frustrated/uncomfortable.

          Reply ↓
      2. ferrina*

        Yeah. It’s one thing to have a small physical activity that requires very little attention and is easily interruptible (doodling, fidget toys, knitting, quilting, etc). It’s another thing to have a side activity that requires attention and that captures your train of thought. You can’t read and listen at the same time- one of those will crowd out the other.

        Reply ↓
    2. Zebra*

      How does that work? I understand doodling, since you can draw and still listen and look at others. But how do you pay attention to people talking in a meeting if you’re reading stuff on your phone?

      Reply ↓
      1. amoeba*

        I can do that when I’m playing really mindless games, this does actually help me focus – only in remote meetings without camera though, obviously! But yeah, reading something or scrolling through instagram or even texting absolutely takes my focus away 100%, no idea if or how other people do that and still listen. I’d definitely default to assuming they don’t.

        Reply ↓
        1. bamcheeks*

          Same. If there are words I can see, then my brain prioritises them over words I can hear. Anything tactile or visual-but-not-language based helps my brain focus on the words I’m hearing!

          Reply ↓
      2. Allonge*

        So – I don’t have ADHD (that I know) but usually take my laptop to meetings and keep reading emails etc. until there is a ‘really need to focus on every word’ part of the meeting coming.

        I read fast and reading is not a big brainspace activity for me. No, I am not going to be reading complex technical stuff, but then most emails are also not 100% complex technical stuff (hell, not 1% complex technical stuff). I can digest a lot while in the meeting a discussion is taking place on something I am not that involved in / am already familiar with / had my say on. When that level of attention is not enough, I stop reading and look at the people speaking. Overall, I have the appropriate level of attention – I don’t need to ask people to repeat stuff or come away with no idea what happened in the meetings.

        Is this polite? Arguably not. But I work 10+ hours per day – I need some space so it does not get to 12 hours.

        Reply ↓
      3. Dood*

        Because those of us with ADHD have a surplus of attention, not a lack of it. By doing something we find mindless, it keeps that surplus of attention focused on something we can control, making it easier to focus on what you’re saying. Otherwise it’s off scanning the perimeter for threats or other stimuli, which is good for the survival of the tribe, but not so good for paying complete attention to you and what you’re saying.

        Reply ↓
    4. Lenora Rose*

      As someone at least ADHD-adjacent, there are better tools than phones, though. Bring a notebook and doodle; the best part is when a note does come up you need to remember, you have a place to write it down right there. Or get a fidget.

      I’ve done the mindless phone game to let me focus thing in social situations, with other ADHD-adjacent folk who will know what I’m doing and why. I’m trying to wean off it because it’s easy (too easy) to switch to social media for just a second, and I like my people.

      But also, drawing feels more productive even as it has a lot of mindless repetitive bits.

      Reply ↓
  42. A Book about Metals*

    I agree with AAM on #1 – if you’re not the manager, or it’s not your meeting I don’t think it’s your place to tell someone what to do with their phone. If the boss cares, they’ll say something. This is good news though – one less thing to make your problem.

    Reply ↓
  43. Trout 'Waver*

    OP#5, “They haven’t given raises in years” is a full reason by itself. No further explanation is necessary. A salary freeze is a salary cut due to inflation. Any company that freezes salaries should immediately assume all their staff is looking to leave.

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      100%

      If you say “Unfortunately my company has been unable to give any cost of living adjustment in several years,” anyone will understand that. And hopefully it will help you weed out any other companies that don’t give cost of living adjustments.

      Reply ↓
  44. Kathy*

    #LW#- You have my complete sympathy. I have misophonia and I suspect you do as well. Please look into it for coping mechanisms. I understand the feeling of feeling like you are having a breakdown because of the repetitiveness of the sounds. I would try noise cancelling headphones and some sort of device on the phone that causes it to light up when it rings. You may need to file for an accommodation under the ADA to do this, if your employer balks. Good luck!

    Reply ↓
  45. Sneaky Squirrel*

    #4 – I use the more passive voice when communicating to separate myself from business decisions or conveying bad news that I’m making on behalf of company policy. For example “The Company requires staff to…” or “The Company’s policy is..”, “The company decided…”. Part of my work is to administer work on behalf of our c-suite and not every decision is going to be popular. I would prefer my colleagues to understand that it’s not just me making this decision in an isolated bubble, but that it’s based on some kind of precedence or leadership ruling.

    Reply ↓
  46. Juicebox Hero*

    Sniffler here, plus I also cough and clear my throat frequently. I’m sorry it annoys you, I really am. I’m not sniffling at you. I’m not doing it to aggravate you. No, I can’t just blow my freaking nose already because that is not the problem I have and I will have no problem honking my horn and showing you the dry tissue. I’m 48. I know what tissues are for, trust me.

    I have chronic sinus issues. I’ve had two operations that were basically to facilitate my sinus drainage, because otherwise the gunk would just lay in there and get endless infections. I’d get between 4 and 6 a year. That meant a lot of antibiotics with their side effects and a lot of feeling like crap.

    The last straw came when I had to have an operation to remove a giant, encysted, bacteria-laden slug of yuck removed. This was followed by months of debridement, which basically means my ENT had to reach inside my head with a special pair of forceps and pick the scabs off because if the lining of the sinus healed before the infection was cleared I’d be right back where I started. This was as painful and gruesome as it sounds, and it was twice a week for months. This also involved numerous courses of antibiotics that ruined my digestive system and rinsing my sinuses six times a day with a prescription rinse that I had to have compounded at a special pharmacy and which cost a bundle.

    That was 2012. I’ve only had one sinus infection since then. But the cure came at a cost, which is constant post-nasal drip.

    This means that mucus runs down through the sinus cavities at the back of my nose which irritates the nerves and reflexively makes me sniffle in an attempt to get the yuck out of my nose… but there’s no yuck in my nose either to snort in or blow out. It then runs down the back of my throat, which irritates it, which is why I cough and clear my throat.

    If questioned, I am indeed going to blame it on just bad sinuses or the air conditioning or something rather than give you the blow by blow account of my sinus woes. I don’t care if you don’t believe me because my health issues are no concern of yours. I’d stop sniffling if I could, but I wouldn’t go back to the old days of endless infections to please anyone.

    Reply ↓
    1. WhyAreThereSoManyBadManagers*

      Wow that is a lot of very detailed info, thanks for explaining and sorry you had to go through all that. But surely you can appreciate that the constant sniffling sound is likely very grating to others like OP and makes it extremely difficult to focus after a while? Like if you’re trying to sleep but a loud faucet drip happens next to you every 20 seconds or so. They’re not begrudging what you’ve gone through but surely they also deserve a work environment conducive to focused work? This sounds like perhaps a work from home accommodation might be a solution for both parties? Not sure but I’ve been in the position of having to listen to the constant sniffler and it is also very difficult.

      Reply ↓
      2. Juicebox Hero*

        Oh, I’m sure it drives people crazy, and there are noises that drive me insane as well. It comes down to it being a sound you can control or not. The leaky faucet you can control by either repairing it or putting a sponge under the drip so you don’t hear the splat against bare metal. Environmental noises that you can’t control, all you can do is figure out a way to live with it.

        My beef was mostly with the “just blow your nose already!!!” contingent because, trust me, if the solution were that simple we’d have thought of it ourselves. Plus it’s not helpful to the LW, who’s already annoyed and would be better served with suggestions for how to block the noise -earplugs, white noise, better headphones etc- instead of checking up to see if her coworker is using her blanket or dressing warm.

        Reply ↓
      3. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        A number of disabilities involve things that might potentially be distracting. Service animals distract people like you wouldn’t believe, even though they’re immaculately trained, simply because they’re unusual in public spaces (and a not insignificant set of people are afraid of them, especially people from countries where dogs are a public health issue). Tics can be extremely distracting, depending on the tic. I feel like “if whatever is wrong with you is a distraction, you should get out of the public eye/ear because they find your disability distressing” would not go down well as a set of accommodations.

        Unless you mean that the people who hate the sound should ask for WFH.

        Reply ↓
      4. Learn ALL the things*

        I tried to work with my office to request a disability accommodation for a physical injury about a year ago, and that process was EXTREMELY difficult, time consuming, and frustrating. I know for sure that if I were to go to HR and request full time remote work because I sniffle once or twice an hour, it would be an automatic no. It’s not something that’s typically considered disabling enough to warrant an accommodation, and even conditions that are disabling enough can be hard to get accommodations for.

        Reply ↓
        1. AllergiesSuck*

          It’s not disabling at all, not by any remotely reasonable standard.Even constantly sneezing, coughing, etc isn’t jo matter how much it bothers someone. That’s their issue, and if they have a condition that makes it difficult to deal with the sound then that’s their condition to work through with the company. If the company wants you to work at home to accommodate their issue and you’re amenable then great, but otherwise you’re just existing in your body.

          Reply ↓
      5. Chocolate Covered Cotton*

        A better accommodation would be for the person who can’t focus due to a coworker’s medical condition to wear headphones or play white noise or put up sound barriers or any other solution that doesn’t put the burden on the coworker with a medical condition.

        Reply ↓
      6. JSPA*

        “Trying to sleep” is not a great comparison for trying to concentrate / read / write / calculate / plan / do design work / troubleshoot / take calls / take notes / enter data.

        Those things are presumed to keep your attention–and if not, that’s arguably a non-standard level of distractability or sound sensitivity on your end (such that you might be the one who would more reasonably get an accommodation).

        Or it might be a sign that you’re not in a job that’s a great fit, if there’s no biological reason rendering you so distractable, I guess???

        Reply ↓
    2. Lynn*

      My husband is with you on this one. 50+ years with some level of congestion no matter what he does. He also has pretty regular sinus infections (more like once a year than multiple times, the way yours were and his doctor doesn’t think surgery will be a fix for his problems). Between allergies and sinus issues, he is not ever completely uncongested-and hasn’t been since at least his early tween years.

      He sniffles constantly, and blows his nose as often as is reasonable. I feel bad for those who find it annoying (including him and, sometimes, me), but the reality is that this is the way breathing works for him. He isn’t thrilled by it either, but he isn’t going to apologize for breathing with an imperfect system.

      Reply ↓
  47. Shell*

    LW1: How certain are you that she’s not paying attention? Are you close enough that you can read her phone screen or are assuming she’s mindlessly scrolling based on the colors of websites?
    I use my phone in meetings to take notes, Google things related to the topic being discussed, check my work email, answer texts from coworker, etc. I’m also actively listening the entire time.

    Reply ↓
    1. HR Friend*

      Jotting down a quick note in your notes app, sure whatever. But googling and email and texts can surely wait until after the meeting? If I was speaking and someone was heads down on their phone the whole time, I’d think they were incredibly rude.

      And fwiw, if you’re composing an email, you’re not actively listening.

      Reply ↓
      1. La Triviata*

        At a staff meeting – mandatory attendance to introduce a new database – the co-worker sitting next to me was on her computer scheduling her doctor visits and her son’s for the year. Constant flashing lights in various colors, noises, etc. Incredibly distracting.

        Reply ↓
      2. Dood*

        Different brains work in different ways, and neurodivergent brains run quite differently to neurotypical ones. Just because you cannot perform these tasks and actively listen doesn’t mean that’s a universal rule for everyone.

        Reply ↓
  48. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #2 Kevin the creepy coworker who sulks after rejection.

    Give your coworkers a heads up what you’re going to do, then I would
    EMail to HR, copy to your boss and grandboss, so it’s on record.

    Subject: #MeToo
    Summary Text: What do we do about Kevin – before he drags our organisation into serious trouble.
    Specifics: This is what he has done so far and it is affecting our work ….

    I have zero tolerance for creeps, but I’ve only worked in countries with strong employment protections and a protective union environment, so my job would be safe if I did this. YMMV.
    In fact, I’d have gone to the union first and they’d have demanded management protect us from his antics. Or else

    Reply ↓
    1. Observer*

      Well, in the US, this is the kind of thing that *absolutely* protected by law. And the Feds, at least, will take retaliation cases even faster than actual harassment / discrimination cases, because they tend to be easier to prove. *And* because even if the company could *prove* that there was no discrimination. But even if that’s the case, you *still* are not allowed to retaliate against someone who complains about harassment.

      Reply ↓
      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        That’s good to hear.
        I hope the OP & coworkers feel able to escalate their complaints about Kevin’s harassment further up the management chain, since HR aren’t interested. Women should NOT have to put up with such persistent creeps in the workplace

        Reply ↓
  49. WhyAreThereSoManyBadManagers*

    #3: Ooh I had a constantly sniffling coworker once also & the noise is enough to drive you absolutely batty, I can empathize. There were 4 of us that shared a small office & this one guy was forever sniffling, every few seconds, all day every day. It was like torture. I brought extra soft Kleenex from home and put the box on his desk, but he refused to blow his nose. Just kept sniffling. I even asked him once if he could please just blow his nose instead of sniffling but he refused. It was then I found out that – I know this sounds crazy – some adults don’t know how to blow their nose. They were never taught as kids or something, I don’t know. I ended up quitting that job soon after but if I’d had to stay I think the only option would’ve been noise canceling headphones w/loud music. Hope you find a solution, please update us.

    Reply ↓
    1. Learn ALL the things*

      I am seriously side-eyeing your claim that your coworker refused to blow his nose because he wasn’t taught how as a child. This comment section is filled with people saying that their medical condition which causes sniffling isn’t one where blowing their nose would solve the problem. I think that’s more likely the case than that a grown adult didn’t know how to blow his nose.

      Reply ↓
  50. Who knows*

    #5 – When an interviewer asks “Why do you want to leave your current job?” what they’re really asking is “Why do you want to work for us?” Just stick with answering the real question.

    Reply ↓
  51. beepboop*

    #3, I have a tiny desk fan I use to drown out an officemate’s frequent sighing, and it’s also helpful when I’m eating and afraid people can hear me chew. It’s not so loud you can’t hear phones or people talking to you, but grays out a lot of the little annoying sounds that get you in a very quiet office.

    Reply ↓
  52. Fluffy Fish*

    OP 1 – the irony here is that you also are spending your attention in meetings elsewhere monitoring what your colleague is doing on their phone.

    Not a call out, just perhaps reframe a bit. Alison is right it’s not your problem to address. If there’s an actual work issue (there’s things not being done or you have to keep getting her attention to ask questions or give input) then that is what you address with your manager.

    Reply ↓
  53. Madame Arcati*

    I’m not suggesting that all sexist behaviour results in violence eyc but it disturbs me that Kevin punishes women for rejecting him as it suggests he things they are wrong to do so, because he deserves their attention….all Kevin needs is the wrong bit of the internet and we could have a bigger problem.
    What I’m driving at is, i think Kevin needs dealing with not solely because it’s annoying and troublesome and unprofessional but that it’s potentially dangerous – the thin end of the incel wedge, if you like. Nip this in the bud.

    Reply ↓
  54. Polly Hedron*

    I agree with all the criticisms of Kevin.
    I am just curious: did any woman there ever accept Kevin, and, if so, what happened then?

    Reply ↓
    1. Nicole Maria*

      I am sure that “Kevin” would not ask me out were I in this situation, but I have given my number to cat-callers a few times and it turns out they were really not actually interested in me, lol

      Reply ↓
  56. AAM fan*

    #2 OP: Put in an email to HR, “Kevin’s refusal to acknowledge colleagues who have rejected him romantically is impacting our ability to do our jobs. All of the impacted individuals are women and thus we are concerned about this gender-based discrimination. If COMPANY cannot assist us in this discrimination complaint, we shall seek outside counsel to advise us on next steps.” or something similar. In my experience, HR won’t take meaningful action unless you document legally actionable issues in writing. (And if you are reading this and that is not your experience, great, but I once worked somewhere with a VERY toxic HR team and this was what we had to do.

    Reply ↓
      1. not like a regular teacher*

        Your jurisdiction’s bar association most likely has a directory of lawyers, and many cities have an org offering free/low-cost consultations. A one-hour conversation with a lawyer who then writes a scary-looking letter on your behalf, is probably more affordable than you’d think.

        Reply ↓
    2. Chocolate Covered Cotton*

      I like this approach, but if you’re going to even hint at possibly taking legal action (“we shall seek outside counsel to advise us on next steps” is basically a threat), then you should definitely talk to a lawyer FIRST before doing anything.

      Scratch that. As others have said, the very first thing you need to do is document everything. Every instance that he’s frozen you out, given silent treatment, refused to do work, etc., especially if it affected your own work in any way. Include every time you’ve seen him do it to someone else. For each instance, note (as best as you can recall) approximate time, date, and who else might have witnessed it. And get as many of the other women as you can to do the same.

      THEN, have your consult with an employment attorney. An initial consult can be surprisingly cheap. Show them the documentation and get advice on how to approach HR. They’ll tell you exactly what to say. It may be too soon to threaten legal action, and a lawyer will know better if it’s time.

      Reply ↓
      1. Kevin Sours*

        Having the initial consult before going through the effort of “documenting everything” is a plausible approach. The lawyer can help focus your documentation efforts. However writing stuff down while memory is fresh can also be very valuable.

        Regardless talk to a lawyer first because step two is going to come entirely from what happens in step one.

        Reply ↓
  57. Addison DeWitt*

    “I’ve been there for nine years, it’s time for new challenges.”

    Probably all you need to say in most fields.

    Reply ↓
  58. AC36*

    #3 – A LOT of people are struggling with allergies this year. I know many people that have never had allergies before, but have in the past couple of years. Your co-worker may be trying to mediate it, but isn’t able to. I’d echo the noise-canceling earphone option. I doubt this coworker enjoys having to sniffle!

    Reply ↓
  59. Nicole Maria*

    I feel like the advice in number 3 can apply to so many different situations “Assume if there was an easy cure, they would have already found it.”

    I see people making this mistake all the time, “why don’t they just ____!” When I’m sure they’ve thought of “____” already, and have a reason they’re not doing that. It feels like most people really can’t conceptualize that other people’s brains work about the same as theirs do. I would love to know the psychology that leads people to believe they have more awareness of an issue than the person actually dealing with said issue.

    Reply ↓
  60. Case of the Mondays*

    For #2, I’d put it in Glassdoor and Indeed as a company review. I doubt a company this bad even reads them (I once worked at a huge company where the VP of HR would leave angry, typo-ridden replies to all the complaints on Indeed and it took over a year for the other executives to realize). But at least people applying might and be spared…
    Also if anyone ever does take the company to court, talk about documentation!

    Reply ↓
  61. spcepickle*

    I sat next to a sniffer and after asking and asking I was finally allowed to move desks. The first day after the move, I felt my shoulders drop and my whole neck relax. It was an amazing difference in my work production, mood, and health.
    I understand that nobody is sniffing AT me, but good golly it is a noise that grates on me in a way that causes a physical stress response.
    All that to say – you are not alone letter writer and it may be worth asking if one or both of you can move desks. If you can’t move I totally second loop earplugs and a fan. You could even try blue tooth headphones that were synced with your work phone.

    Reply ↓
  62. EA*

    I sympathize with OP1; being constantly on your phone in meetings is rude, full stop. There are so many other fidget options that I don’t feel that there are excuses. There’s a difference between quickly checking a text from daycare and constantly scrolling.

    I’d honestly start being like, “I’ll give you a minute to finish what you’re doing on your phone and then we can continue”, at least when I was personally talking.

    Reply ↓
    1. Head Sheep Counter*

      +1000

      I do love the pause whilst waiting for someone to finish their “more important than you talking” task. Just let it be wildly uncomfortable. Keep going… oh… that was the whole meeting???

      Reply ↓
  63. CommanderBanana*

    LW #2, this is a group discrimination claim waiting to happen. In all seriousness, you and your coworkers definitely have grounds to consult a lawyer.

    Reply ↓
  64. Melicious*

    #4 I can see differentiating between an expectation that is official company policy vs one that is coming just from the manager. But other than that… yeah, it’s weird and not softer.

    Reply ↓
  65. Dawn*

    #3: Unless you’re willing to pay for your coworker’s nasal surgery, you can’t hold her responsible for fixing her sniffling, which is almost certainly outside of her control.

    Signed, someone with sinus problems who can’t afford to have them fixed right now.

    Reply ↓
    1. Dancing Otter*

      Yeah, I think insurance pre-approval offices just see the word rhinoplasty and reject as cosmetic without reading further.

      My ENT’s office says that *sometimes* appeals are successful. I draw the line at deliberately breaking my own nose to make surgery an emergent need.

      Signed, someone who has had eight cauterizations to try to stop the daily nosebleeds.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dawn*

        The bigger part of the problem for me is that I was laid off earlier in the year, I’m not American and my self-funded insurance doesn’t cover much (we don’t have COBRA in Canada,) and with how backed up our healthcare system already is on “non-essential surgeries” it can be near-impossible to convince the provincial health authority that you actually need the treatment that you need.

        That having been said, I’m very sorry that you have gone through all of that, it really sucks what hoops we’re all expected to jump through just to be able to breathe normally.

        Reply ↓
  66. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    #3 if Loops or other noise cancelling alternatives don’t work have you considered a low level white noise generator? I have one I used in an old office that was just too quiet and it helped a lot with all kinds of things without interfering with my phone calls at all. Eventually the office installed white noise in the ventilation and I brought it home and use it for sleeping.

    I know there are many apps and digital sound ones, but I find that one that moves actual air is more effective. I have a Dohm that has been in use all night, every night for ~20 years.

    Reply ↓
  67. anonymous professor*

    Re #3, I used to have a coworker who coughed one cough Every. Thirty. Seconds. I know because I timed it. We had separate offices but the walls were thin and it drove me BANANAS. Then one day my father-in-law, a retired psychologist, happened to be around the office and had an extended conversation with her. He later mentioned to me that she pretty clearly had Tourettes, and it all began to make sense (she had some other physical tics, all fairly well controlled but definitely there). It was her information to keep private (as in, none of my damn business) and his observation was based solely on that one conversation, but the knowledge that it very likely was not something that she was doing intentionally in any way made my irritation evaporate. So perhaps there might be some other, physical factor at work with your sniffling colleague?

    Reply ↓
  68. hellohello*

    LW #5, I applied for my current job for very similar reasons, and my go-to response was “I’m looking for new opportunities and a bit more stability than my current role provides.” The new opportunities part felt both like a positive reason to be job-searching while being vague enough that it didn’t rule anything out, and the latter was a way to indicate I was worried about the financial stability of my old job without getting too into the weeds about it. I think it worked pretty well for me.

    Reply ↓
  69. Anne Shirley Blythe*

    LW3, as someone who has survived two ferociously loud snorting male coworkers (two separate jobs), I wanted to add you can create your own white-noise machine by listening to white noise on YouTube, low enough so you can still hear the phone. There are endless possibilities–fans, train sounds, airplane rides, ocean waves …. it’s delightful.

    Reply ↓
  70. A_Jessica*

    LW No.1
    Some folks find that scrolling keeps them engaged in meetings.
    I myself try to use doodling to keep myself engaged in meetings-the concern with both scrolling or doodling is some folks might assume I’m not paying attention. And how much of my personal medical background do I want to reveal to explain that doodling keeps me engaged in meetings?
    Some people see anything besides taking notes as rude.

    Reply ↓
  71. kt*

    #1 it’s possible your coworker has spoken to and made arrangements with her boss, and that’s why no one has said anything about the scrolling – I know I focus better when my attention is not 100% on one thing. Or they are looking at something related to the meeting / job and you can’t tell that from where you are creeping on them. Bottom line: mind your business.

    Reply ↓
  72. Danish.*

    For #2, give Alison’s suggested warning at your normal volume in public spaces instead of like, pulling them aside to have a quiet word. If this dude and HR both want to suck out loud then there should be no problem with this being fully publicly acknowledged in your entire office. BY THE WAY, MAIL COMES ON TUESDAY AND KEVIN WILL PRETEND YOU DONT EXIET AND REFUSE TO WORK WITH YOU AFTER HE ASKS YOU OUT. HR SAYS THATS FINE THOUGH BECAUSE HE WONT BE HARRASSING YOU AT THAT POINT. DIAL 9 TO CALL OUTSIDE NUMBERS.

    Reply ↓
  73. Head Sheep Counter*

    Can we perhaps institute rules like what they are doing for schools… for work? Set one’s phone aside… better yet… lock it in your office or leave it in a pocket. There are few folk important enough to disrespect an entire meeting for your email or even a phone call or text. If there’s something going on that you are effectively on-call for, be discrete.

    Being constantly plugged in isn’t good for kids… seems unlikely that its good for adults.

    For #1 I do concur that if this is not a) your meeting, b) your staff person or c) you talking and someone not participating… then you have to let it go for this instance. But by all means work to see if you can change the phone policy.

    Reply ↓
    1. musical chairs*

      This is not a tactic that works with adults. Additionally, many people use their personal devices to access work emails and to call co-workers/customers/clients. Countless.

      Reply ↓
      1. Head Sheep Counter*

        But… it actually does work on adults. I work in an area where I can’t bring my phone in. I lock it outside (feels really weird) but am phone free (on my cellphone at least) 95% of my work day. It… is sort of glorious.

        We do not need to be so connected and available. It increases anxiety and distraction and damages interpersonal relationships (eg your phone being more important than the person actually talking to you).

        Reply ↓
        1. Lenora Rose*

          My boss tries to reach me on my phone. I felt rather bad the day he had to call my coworker because I left my phone in my bag on silent. It’s also the music player that helps me sometimes drill down into the more tedious work jobs or settle after de-escalating a furious phone call.

          Yes, we’d all be better off reducing addictive casual game use and social media use, and phones enable both. But making sure it’s harder for my boss or my (private situation details redacted) to reach me is not a win either.

          Reply ↓
          1. Head Sheep Counter*

            Agreed that if we are unavailable to our bosses during working hours its sticky.

            The weirdest part of not having my phone is actually the calendar. I now am old school writing or printing my calendar for days that have meetings all over.

            The best part… a better understanding from basically everyone… that some times… we are just not available and the very best part… I don’t take anything home (security reasons). I have once texted from the road when there was an accident and once called in sick. Otherwise – zero email and zero phone calls. AMAZING! At my prior job the lines were so blurry because… why not reply to this email… at 7 pm after dinner? or why hasn’t so and so responded … even though surely so and so had gone home. It was stressful.

            Reply ↓
  74. Lizzay*

    I feel for LW #3. I am currently going slightly bonkers b/c my coworker snorts. All. Day. Long. Sniffling would be an improvement! Curious if anyone has ever been able to desensitize themselves to something like that (nail clipping, sniffing, etc) & how they managed that. Some things I’m desensitized to, but other things I get hypersensitive to & I wish I could figure out why so I could go de- to it all. In the meantime, I listen to music.

    Reply ↓
  75. Raida*

    1. Can I tell my coworker to stop scrolling on her phone in meetings?
    “Dude. You gotta put your phone down during meetings. Do you realise how much time you spend on it? I had to break the habit because it was getting worse and it’s distracting and I only managed by leaving it face-down and on silent. Made me look like a bloody teenager sullenly sitting in a meeting.”
    I’d do it over coffee or lunch, but I’d still tell them – it doesn’t need to be my job to performance manage them.

    BUT afterwards I’d let it go as like a mannerism – if it doesn’t interrupt, I’m not going to focus on it and be annoyed.

    Reply ↓
  76. Coughy Cake*

    I wanted to pipe up and say I appreciated Alison’s answer to #3. I caught the flu from hell (pre-2020) and ended up with a post-viral cough that WOULD NOT GO AWAY. I was taking traditional cough meds and sleepy cough meds and non-sleepy cough meds and lozenges. I had a chest x-ray done. I got an inhaler. Hell, I caught the flu AGAIN at the hospital trying to get answers to the cough.

    Only things that finally made it stop was ivy leaf syrup and WFH.

    LW3, it sounds like you’re going through some irritating times! But I hope you can assume the best of your colleague and that they are trying their best to get by too.

    Reply ↓
  77. My cat is the employee of the month*

    LW3, please know that I’m thinking of you. I share a (paper thin) wall with someone who coughs and enthusiastically blows their nose whenever they’re in the office. We only really overlap in the office for about 3 hours week, but it’s still a lot to hear.

    Reply ↓

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