employee sleeps too deeply when on-call, coworker is rude to my intern, and more

by Alison Green on September 3, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Coworker sleeps too deeply when she’s on-call

I work in a job (child welfare) that requires overnight and weekend on-call shifts. We get calls almost every night, but usually those are in the evening hours; true middle-of-the-night emergencies are more rare, but always highly urgent.

I have a coworker who can’t wake up to calls in the early morning hours. She’s very responsive in the evenings, and even late at night and in the later morning — it’s just the wee hours of the morning, when she is most deeply asleep, that cause a problem. She’s missed a call three times now; when that happens, the on-call worker from a neighboring office has to get called in, which delays our response time significantly (and makes the other worker mad!).

Our general office policy is that it’s fine for this to happen once — stuff happens, people sleep too deeply when they’re tired, etc. After the first missed call, your supervisor talks to you about how to prevent it happening again (changing the ringtone to something more startling, giving the supervisor your personal number so two phones are ringing at you, etc.). After the second, it’s a serious warning. We’ve never had someone miss three calls without a corresponding performance/attitude/other problem before, but that’s not the case with this coworker; she’s great at her job when she’s awake!

Our management seems to be at a loss as to what to do at this point, and they’re asking us for suggestions. Other than the standard “this helps me wake up” advice, what are the options here? It’s not really a performance issue that can be worked on, and it seems silly to fire a good employee for sleeping too deeply at 3 am! But someone does need to be responding to these emergencies, and honestly the rest of us would probably revolt if we had to take more on-call shifts and this coworker was excused (we’re already on-call one weeknight out of 10, and a full weekend every eight weeks). Any suggestions?

It sounds like it should be treated as something more like a medical issue than a disciplinary one — and the coworker herself should be enlisted in finding solutions. Surely there’s got to be a technological solution, like some sort of equipment that can be kept in her bedroom that would blare loudly and flash lights when she’s called? A wristband that vibrates when a call comes in? Other devices that provide emergency alerts for hearing-impaired people? Technology almost certainly can solve this (and your organization should pay for it the way they would other assistive devices used for medical accommodations).

2. Coworker is rude to my intern

I’m managing a summer intern. While she does 95% of things fantastically, she does make the occasional mistake. I address these with her in one-on-ones where I ask what occurred, we discuss the seriousness of the mistake when it’s a big thing, and then talk through ways to help her not make that mistake again (if it’s relevant). Our team’s culture is to always bring up mistakes to people one-on-one so that person can correct it, or to let them know it’s been fixed if it needed to be dealt with immediately.

There’s a problem employee, Jane, who is at a lower level than me but not a direct report who frequently calls out only my intern’s mistakes publicly via Teams. None of these mistakes have specifically affected Jane. In fact, Jane has made (and continues to make) the same mistakes as the intern and many other mistakes, and she also gets defensive at any correction at all. How do I tell my intern that it’s Jane who is in the wrong, not her (other than the mistakes)? And how do I tell Jane to stop being a jerk to the intern?

Tell Jane that if there are problems with your intern’s work, she should come to you privately so you can handle it; she shouldn’t address it herself. You could say, “It’s important to me to praise in public and correct in private, and most people don’t appreciate being called out publicly like that. If something needs to be addressed with her, please let me know and I will handle it with her one-on-one.”

And then to your intern: “I’ve asked Jane to stop doing this and to come to me privately if there’s anything that concerns her, because our culture is to raise mistakes with people privately. Frankly, it’s also not her job to be monitoring your work like that. I’m sorry that’s happened, and I want to make sure you know you’re doing a great job.”

3. Should I wear a button to signal I don’t want to talk about politics at work?

I recently started a new mid-level position in a professional office in a heavily-Democratic region of the country. People tend to assume you are a Democrat, and political comments that are anti-Trump and pro-Harris are extremely common. I happen to be anti-Trump AND anti-Harris, and I don’t want to hear anything about politics at work, ever. It makes me feel “othered” and has led to me struggling a bit to form bonds with my new colleagues, which I feel is important to my success with the company — and I don’t know how to act or what to say when these comments are made directly to me.

What do you think about my wearing a Cornel West button on my coat, in hopes that people might notice and just stop talking politics with or in front of me? Is there anything else I can do? I should add that if someone noticed my button and then attempted to talk to me about my political beliefs, I think I would feel comfortable politely letting them know that I’d prefer to not discuss politics at work.

If you don’t want to talk about politics at work, wearing a political button is the exact wrong thing to do! The button would signal that you’re inviting political conversation (and in this case not just conversation, but probably debate) — and it will come across oddly to wear it and then say you don’t want to talk about politics at work. You’re better off just saying, “Oh, I really hate talking about politics at work” or “I have a politics black-out right now — thank you for understanding.”

4. Employee is constantly anxiety venting

An indirect employee (reports to one of my reports) has a lot of stressors about a sudden unpleasant life change. I’ve given their supervisor resources regarding free counseling sessions through work, flex scheduling, etc. to share. However, this employee has started handling their anxiety and anger by coming to my office to report/vent about anything bothering them. Sometimes multiple times per hour. About seemingly minor things I would expect folks to deal with on their own or brush off (no I really don’t need to be told someone didn’t wipe up some drips of coffee in the break room).

Should I weather this knowing they are in a tough place, or shut it down and save my own sanity?

Shut it down and save your sanity. They’re asking you to perform an unreasonable amount of emotional labor, and you can decline (and should decline, since you presumably need to focus on work during that time). You’re also not their boss — they shouldn’t be coming to you this frequently at all.

There’s advice here and here on handling this sort of interruption, but since you’re their boss’s boss, make sure you’re also working with their manager to ensure that the problem doesn’t just get transferred over to her.

5. My colleague is copying me

As a small business owner, I often work with strategic partners. I’m developing opportunities with one partner and noticed on several occasions that she’s mirroring my language. For the most part, I let it go.

She recently posted on a professional networking site that she’s seeking new opportunities and asked me to recommend her in comments. I was incredulous when I read the post and noted her elevator pitch is pretty much the unique metaphor and structure I use for my pitch, which I shared when we met.

I already told her I’d write a referral before I read it. I’m not sure how to respond to this. If I don’t bring it up, I feel it’ll only get worse down the road. She’s also an up-and-coming speaker and I’m wary that she will use my anecdotes; it’s a very niche industry.

How can I address this in a way that doesn’t damage our relationship? This person has become a friend and there’s a second partner in our venture, so I’m not ready to walk away from this yet.

Her request for a referral actually gives you an easier opening to bring it up. You could say, “I feel awkward writing you a referral when the pitch you wrote is so similar in metaphor and structure to the one I shared with you that I use. I’m concerned it will look like I copied yours or you copied mine, and either way that’s not good for either of us.”

(Of course, make sure it’s really copied! Some pitches are generic enough that it would be hard to call dibs, but based on the way you described it, I’m assuming that’s not the case here.)

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  1. NurseThis*

    Re #1: I spent a career as a night shift RN so dealing with staff issues related to hours is common ground. If this person knew going in to the job that emergency on call involved middle of the night duty, I think you can’t just lean on the fact that this person spaces emergency calls.

    If they can’t address this medically or in some way that eliminates the problem, I think you need to consider whether this is a good fit. I spent a lifetime waking nurses up who had crawled into empty beds. The ability to be alert for a crisis at 3 AM isn’t for everyone.

    Is this person remorseful in any way? Are you 100% sure they aren’t going dark on purpose?

    1. nnn*

      That’s not the first place my thinking would go. This is a social worker in child welfare who’s very responsive the rest of the time.

      1. Temp Anon*

        …and has been AWOL/unreachable multiple times during the overnight portion of her job, which is an essential part of it.

        I disagree with Alison on this one, I think treating it as a medical issue will only drag this out. Being on call overnight is not an optional part of this job you do if you just happen to be awake at the time, it’s an essential part of the service. LW explained the seriousness of this, including what happens if you miss calls three times, but for some reason those consequences are not happening to this coworker.

        If this goes on, other workers will either get more and more resentful that they have to pick up her 3am slack and quit, or figure if there’s no real consequence to turning off their phones, why not do the same.

        I’m hearing impaired, and have to take MANY steps to make sure I have an alarm that wakes me, or that I can be awakened by an emergency phone call, and this is not even a function of my job. There are myriad solutions out there and LW’s coworker has found zilch.

        1. Laser99*

          I would be furious if I found out a colleague had “special accommodations” for this. We don’t know if it is actually a medical issue.

          1. QuiteQuiteContrary*

            Seriously, @Laser99? Who appointed you the arbiter of accommodations? I can only imagine your pearl-clutching at an accommodation for someone whose disability you can’t see and judge worthy of assistance. “OMG, what’s next? Something else that has zero impact on my life? Where does it end??” Get a grip.

            1. Laser99*

              I take your point about accommodations, but “I slept through the alarm, my bad!” is not a medical condition.

              1. Goldfeesh*

                I recall posters here on AMA would did have medical conditions that caused them to sleep through alarms, among other things.

              2. meggus*

                Yes, in fact, sleep disturbance is a medical condition and one protected by the ADA. it’s one i’ve dealt with since being assaulted during the pandemic and left with a brain injury. Four years now. it’s horrible to deal with, and your ableism and attitude of “it’s not a real problem” is a lot of the reason why.

                I’m not sure why you think it’s ok to talk about other people’s medical conditions like this, or pretend you as not-a-doctor get to decide what is and isn’t a medical issue but you do not, this is very wrong and ableist, and can open you up to a lawsuit if it comes out on the job. Stop.

              1. No Longer Looking*

                It has an impact on several people including the one with fatigue issues, yes. Hopefully trying to apply compassion to all sides will be more productive. As someone who has 7 alarms set every morning, I assure you that we aren’t setting out to make your life difficult, we absolutely have lived a life of remorse caused by our fatigue issues, and it isn’t a personal choice nor laziness nor lack of concern.

                1. EDIA*

                  Ash was responding specifically to the assertion that the matter in question “has zero impact on [my] life,” so you coming in all “everyone’s lives are impacted” seems so irrelevant to the continuous conversation that it’s not even a tangent. I can only make sense of your comment by assuming that you did not read the thread, and/or are responding to whichever comments catch your eye, heedless of the context.

            4. Temp Anon*

              “what’s next? Something else that has zero impact on my life?”

              It very much impacts other people’s lives, when coworker sleeps through the call it has to go to somebody else who is not even “on call” so THEY get woken up at 3am.

              This job involves being on call overnight. If you cannot do that or find some way to do it then it’s not the job for you, the “accommodation “ (and this is why I disagreed with treating it as a medical issue!) cannot be “she just doesn’t have to take calls overnight and everyone else can just take an extra shift of being on call every week”.

              1. Hell in a Handbasket*

                Alison never said that should be the accommodation. The advice was to get a special kind of alarm clock or something. I find it hard to imagine why anyone would object to that.

              2. Yikes Stripes*

                Okay, but her not taking those shifts wasn’t presented as an option. The potential accommodations that Alison mentioned would be tech that the company would pay for. Which seems reasonable.

                I’m one of those people who can and has slept through alarms, earthquakes, sirens, roadwork involving jackhammers thirty feet from my window, people screaming nearby, and many, many, many other things that have made people boggle. My ex insisted that it was a weird superpower.

                The only things that can always wake me up are a smoke alarm and my cats chewing on cardboard. When I was doing on call night shifts I found and downloaded a ringtone that sounds like a smoke alarm, and it worked well for me. Hopefully OP’s coworker can find something that’ll work for them.

          2. Bitte Meddler*

            Hold up. The special accommodation that Alison mentioned is some kind of alarm that is guaranteed to wake the employee up.

            How on earth would you be furious that your co-worker got a lights-flashing-airhorn-blaring alarm clock and you didn’t???

            1. Joron Twiner*

              It would be the reverse–that now you have to set a loud alarm to wake up at 3am to cover for your coworker.

        2. Willow Sunstar*

          Yeah, I have enough problems getting proper sleep that I would never, ever sign up for a job like this. But that would require knowing about it in the interview process.

          There are specialized alarm clocks like sunrise clocks, things you place under your pillow that vibrate, and so forth. Maybe the employee should look into things like that.

          1. Jackalope*

            A sunrise clock doesn’t sound like the right tool here, since she only needs to wake up at that hour IF there’s an emergency.

        3. Stipes*

          LW talks as if this person WANTS to wake up for the call, and just has been failing to. If work provides her a vibrating wristband and flashing lights, and she refuses or forgets to use them, then it’s a disciplinary issue. But so far, it’s still a problem to solve together.

          You’ve taken many steps to make sure you have an alarm wakes you, and this person hasn’t discovered those yet. Maybe you think she should have been more resourceful in coming up with those solutions herself, but that’s not the same thing as purposefully being unavailable at night.

          1. UnfairAccusations*

            Wow, that’s hostile an untrue. None of those things would wake me up if I used them. Your assumption that they would automatically solve the problem if only the person used them is both false and extremely hostile. Just because they would work for you does not mean they work for everyone.

            Good grief. People do not react the same way to the same stimuli. Why is this such a hard concept for anything revolving around sleep?

              1. Margo*

                People in this thread are being unreasonably hostile and judgemental about a stranger’s situation in which all parties are acting in good faith and trying their best, according to the only person who knows anything about the situation. It really makes the comment section here unpleasant.

            2. Stipes*

              I think the tone of my post didn’t come across — I’m on the heavy sleeper’s side!

              I was responding to Temp Anon, who’s acting as if the heavy sleeper is unwilling to wake up at night and should be let go. But according to the letter writer, she’s entirely willing to take these late-night calls if she can! She should be allowed to at least try things like vibration and flashing lights before being forced out of the job.

        4. tinyhipsterboy*

          >>”I’m hearing impaired, and have to take MANY steps to make sure I have an alarm that wakes me, or that I can be awakened by an emergency phone call, and this is not even a function of my job. There are myriad solutions out there and LW’s coworker has found zilch.”

          I mean, that’s exactly what Alison is saying to do: obviously something is not working, buut the cause is not entirely clear, so OP’s management needs to reiterate that the coworker needs to find something that works for them (and, I’m assuming, actually communicate what’s being tried).

          It could easily just be that OP’s coworker sleeps deeply; it could be a medical thing. Either way, when an employee does a great job other than one specific task (occasionally, to boot, not even regularly!), it would be pretty unfair to make it a huge deal as long as there’s actual good-faith communication. We don’t have enough information to say it is or isn’t a medical issue, but coworkers would potentially be frustrated either way regardless of if accommodations are actually necessary. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try first before firing someone who is great at every other aspect of the job.

      2. OMG! Bees!*

        For this reason, (and my own preferences on avoiding on call work) I would see if it is possible to get this worker exempt from on call, or at least during the few hours when she isn’t reliably responsive. See if that can be shifted to someone else (make sure they are fine with it instead of just being dumped into their lap!)

        Of course this differs a little if being on call was up front when starting the job or if that was assigned later.

        In IT, I had a boss who was tired of being on call himself, so he eventually decided that everyone was on call. Another coworker and I simply refused; a 3rd quit, but the timing was coincidental, still helped our case to refuse.

        1. No sleep 'till Brooklyn*

          And enable the behavior? I’m sure none of the team loves being on call, but it’s part of the job and one employee shouldn’t get a pass because they sleep too deeply.

        2. raktajino*

          If it’s discovered that the employee only struggles with 3 am wakeups in specific circumstances, then it might be reasonable to try to schedule on-call nights around that. Maybe they sleep heavily on days they have had to be up since 2 am babysitting their niece, or nights when they have to sleep in a different location and can’t plug in their strobe light alarm, etc. In general though, simply being exempt is probably an unreasonable accommodation in most circumstances.

    2. allathian*

      I have no experience of the nursing field, but is there really no room for a medical accommodation here at all? Like if this person is great at handling calls until 2 am and after 5 am, could they be exempt from taking calls in the period in between?

      2. Goody*

        LW1 already stated that the rest of the team would be very upset if this one person was removed from the on-call schedule. They’re already each on-call one weeknight every two weeks and one full weekend every 2 months. In my books, exemption simply isn’t a reasonable accommodation.

        If a technological solve can’t be reached, this would be a likely trigger to sever employment. They can’t be relied on to perform a critical part of the job description. Of course, this is after ensuring there isn’t a way to wake them up as needed.

          1. DrMM*

            Better to lose one employee than it would be to lose the other 8-10. As someone who takes call for my hospital job, I would be very unhappy if a coworker was exempt from call just because they’re a heavy sleeper. While it wasn’t the only factor, letting a new hire not take call did play a role in why I left my last job … and I was not the only one.

            1. K in Boston*

              At least in my state, child welfare social workers have a case-per-worker ratio that is far higher than the national recommendation as it is. Considering sarah’s point about how difficult it is to both find and retain good child welfare social workers, I don’t know that the other 8-10 people each having to take on one of Sleepy Employee’s cases while they look for a replacement would help keep them, either.

              In a different field that redistribution of work may not be for too long, but it could be a lot longer in this one. Without getting too much into the details of my work (which isn’t social work), right now I’m working with a social worker who’s been at the state department for two years and she’s still considered very new by everyone she works with — maybe knowing that a new person of similar work quality (outside of sleeping through on-calls) could be onboarding in six months might be something the other 8-10 could weather, but time to hire a minimally qualified person + two years until they can be trusted to take on the same workload as the last person…I’d be surprised if they don’t end up losing others, anyway.

              I’m not saying either solution is great, and other states may be struggling less in this area than mine is — but that I do think there’s a bit more to calculate when it comes to this field compared to others.

            2. jasmine*

              But this isn’t an issue of laziness or lack of trying, it’s a medical issue. It can be framed as such if they can’t find a solution to the employee not waking

              1. Yorick*

                We don’t know that and neither does LW. LW only knows that this person doesn’t take any early morning calls.

                1. Insert Clever Name Here*

                  Actually, we only know that this person has missed 3 early morning calls. That might be 3 of 3, 3 of 6, or 3 of 276.

              3. MassMatt*

                “ But this isn’t an issue of laziness or lack of trying, it’s a medical issue”

                We don’t know this. Not every work performance issue is the result of medical issues, nor disabilities. We need to resist making everything a pathology.

            3. Laser99*

              That was my reasoning above. It engenders resentment in the rest of the team. (Source: I once found out one co-worker’s health insurance was paid for by my boss. Only one. You can just imagine the mess when this was discovered.)

          2. Allonge*

            But that argument goes both ways – you also don’t want to upset the rest of the team to keep one person.

            1. Alpacas Are Not Dairy Animals*

              If the person is sufficiently hard to replace, letting them go will also mean the rest of the team has to take more on-call shifts.

              1. Allonge*

                Sure, and if two other people resign, you have someone who does not do an essential part of the job AND two missing people.

                Just because the question / story here focuses on this one person it does not mean that the others are non-entities.

              2. doreen*

                For a lot of people, doing it while waiting for a replacement is seen very differently from doing it because one person is exempt , even if it’s the same amount of on-call shifts.

          3. jasmine*

            Yes, this is what I was thinking. A field like this is filled with burn out and people leaving. Firing her might not make a lot of sense if she’s good at her job, even if this specific part she’s bad at is pretty important.

            Could she maybe pick up some work from others on her team, to make up for the fact that she’s not on-call during certain hours? To balance things out and prevent resentment on the team?

          4. CommanderBanana*

            I volunteer in a field with social workers and ^^ this. The pay is terrible, the burnout is astronomical, the need is always so much higher than the resources. It is really, really hard to find / retain good LCSWs.

        2. Despachito*

          What if she is not removed from the roster but given more parts of the night she is likely to wake up? It would certainly mean splitting the night in two sections (like: call her until 2 pm, and another employee after that) and being more complicated for the employer, but perhaps it would be doable (and it would mean both of them would be sure that they have at least a part of the night when they can sleep undisturbed?)

          1. TechWorker*

            I’m not sure being on call for half the night is much better than all of it – they still can’t have any plans and if they’ve got any additional responsibilities, they might still have to for eg arrange childcare. So at that point you’re doubling someone else’s on call schedule.. doesn’t seem fair on them.

            1. KateM*

              Why can’t they have any plans for the evening if they only need to start answering the calls at 2 am? I’d say they can have a lot more plans than in the case they have to be on call from 5 pm.

              1. Miso*

                Because, sure, you can go to the cinema in the evening or whatever.

                But you can’t get drunk, you can’t go away too far, nothing like that.

                1. KateM*

                  Yeah, my evening plans never include getting drunk and rarely going away far (never on week nights). There may be other people like that?

                2. TechWorker*

                  Also regardless of drinking, if you might have to get up at 2am and work for a few hours, then some people would also skip the evening cinema trip in order to get an early night…
                  Obviously not everyone is the same. For me being on call for ‘half the night’ would be not much of an improvement on ‘the whole night’

                3. sparkle emoji*

                  KateM, maybe so, but the preparations most would need to take to be on call half the night(especially the latter half) are so similar to those needed to take the whole night that I think many of LW1s team wouldn’t consider this a fix. I’d want to sleep more the day before to be ready, so I’d need to skip working out and other things I like to do in the evening. LW1s coworkers may have similar activities that they may be willing to skip for their on call time, but not to cover for a coworkers time.

              2. Allonge*

                Plans like go to a cinema, yes. Plans like, get a good night’s sleep, no.

                It’s a numbers game: if you are on call two more nights, you are on call for two more nights, even if it’s ‘only’ from 2-5.

                1. KateM*

                  But the calls during that time are rarer, so the chance that my night sleep is disturbed is smaller than my cinema evening being disturbed (and when being on call, I can’t plan going to cinema at all, even though maybe there is no call).

                2. Allonge*

                  Look, I am not saying it’s not worth looking into, it’s just that you are still asking a BIG thing from coworkers. Their sleep and their needs matter just as much as this one person’s and OP needs to take that into consideration.

                  I don’t know how often they go to a movie/have evening plans vs. wanting an undisturbed night’s sleep. For me, long term this would be a large imposition to accommodate a colleague.

                3. Learn ALL the things*

                  @KateM—I’m just going to say. If I was the one being assigned extra 2AM on-call shifts to accommodate for a coworker who is already missing calls, I would not be inclined to think kindly of either my colleague or my boss.

                4. Emmy Noether*

                  I was thinking along those lines too. Maybe someone would volunteer to partner with her? I know I’d consider a free evening and less calls overall (remember – most calls are in the evening!) a good tradeoff.

                5. KateM*

                  @Learn ALL the things – I don’t mean forcing others to have extra shifts, I mean asking (if she’d prefer this to finding a way to wake up) around if there was someone who’d be interested in having night-only shifts.

                6. Great Frogs of Literature*

                  Late to the discussion, but while I HATE HATE HATE middle-of-the-night on-call wakeups, if I had an otherwise-good coworker who just wasn’t waking up, and it was at the point where they were going to get fired if we couldn’t work something out, I could probably be talked into taking all of their overnight shifts if they took half of my daytime shifts, or something like that (and not feel resentful about it).

                2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

                  I wonder if this employee could swap guaranteed childcare for late-night on-call with someone.

              4. Antilles*

                As someone who’s had on-call jobs in the past, let me tell you: The nights you’re on-call feel much different than the nights you aren’t. Even if that phone never rings, it still messes with your night.
                It’s in the back of your mind all evening. You’re more reserved in what you choose to do for the evening. You probably go to bed a bit earlier just in case. You need to pre-arrange things like what to do with child-care, lay out your clothes, etc.

                1. Pharmgirl*

                  Yes exactly – there’s always anticipation/anxiety – what if it rings? You can’t truly relax. It’s not a night off even if you don’t get any calls.

                2. But Of Course*

                  Yep. When my partner worked an on-call job (non-emergent healthcare) it was kind of subtle how it reshaped our evenings, but it did. That “30 minutes to get back to the hospital” put a real damper on your ability to go out to eat, since you couldn’t go more than five miles and reliably make it back in time, for example. Even though we weren’t drinking and yukking it up on non-on-call days, it was really clear we just didn’t have the same freedom as a couple on on-call days.

                3. Kathenus*

                  Agree strongly with Antilles on how on-call messes with your sleep. I used to volunteer with the Red Cross to go out for overnight issues like fires and such. The nights I was on-call my brain was still wired to await a call and every tiny noise or something would rouse me because I was so worried about not hearing a call. I had to stop doing it because I worked full time at a regular job and it was really negatively impacting my sleep patterns.

                4. KateM*

                  But Of Course – was that for the time he was actually on-call, or also several hours before that? As in, did/would you go out to a dinner at 7 pm when his on-call time started at 1 am?

              5. AnneCordelia*

                Because if people have children, they have to have childcare for the nights that they’re on call, and this would double the amount of nights that they had to have the babysitter on standby.

            2. KateM*

              About childcare, someone being in call only during night but not evenings or mornings may actually need LESS childcare – say, a single parent of children who are old enough to sleep home alone but not to drive.

              1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

                Not really. Because what if an emergency happens at home in the middle of the night? They might need less supervision at night, but they don’t need less care.

                Splitting the night is not the solution. I think assistive technology is. This person is otherwise good at their job, probably hates missing the calls as much as anyone else, but can’t think what to do about it. A collaborative process not just a “don’t let this happen again” conversation is needed.

                1. sparkle emoji*

                  And do these emergency calls have a firm end time? I’d guess not. If a call comes in at 4am and the on call person’s own kid wakes up at 6am, can the on call person guarantee they’ll be back by then? There are a lot of ways on call time can be disruptive and it doesn’t make sense to increase that load on others before looking into alternate alarm systems for the heavy sleeper.

                2. KateM*

                  Well, it would still work for a two-adult family where it would not be possible to hand over kids in case of an evening-night-morning shift, but would be possible to do so for night-only.

          2. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

            It seems to me like maybe one or more of her co-workers are larks who would have no problem taking a 5 AM call and might be happy to split nights?

          3. Ultimate Facepalm*

            Changing the on-call shifts instead of the on-call rotation was mu first thought. Give this woman the first shift 5pm-12am or whatever, then a different person 12am-7am. Problem solved.

            1. fhqwhgads*

              It reads to me like that’s not a thing here? She’s on call all night for a night per 10 days. It’s not chunk of hours shifts for anyone. Making it so would be completely revamping the system to work around one person.

        3. JSPA*

          it’s not a full shift they can’t do… and if their system can’t handle splitting a shift, maybe the system needs an upgrade?

          Or given how crap shift work is for health, maybe someone would take all the night shifts for a season, in exchange for no shifts (ever) between 10 a.m. and 6 p.m.?

          1. PineappleColada*

            The problem with that is it’s not a night “shift”. It’s being on call for emergencies, which presumably don’t happen every night, and when they do, there’s not a full shifts worth of work.

            It’s likely not economically feasible to pay someone to just be the night time on-call person.

            1. Yvette*

              That’s the thing this isn’t a night shift. It’s being on call after working a full day which is not the same if you’re on Night Shift that means you get to sleep during the day it’s not an ideal situation and you have to sort of reverse your schedule but it’s not working all day and then having to maybe work again at night at an insane hour. but that is part of the job. Somebody asked if this was a recent thing or these were the first three late night calls she missed. it does seem like there are other things that could be tried. The vibration repeated alarms may be sleeping on the couch instead of her bed. So it’s less comfortable

            2. Eva*

              That’s what the bosses always say, but it’s not feasible as a worker to work a shift, deal with a 3 am crisis, and then be responsible for your work the next day, which is what is apparently going on. An on-call night shift should be the answer.

              1. Katydid*

                When I was on-call IT for a hospital, we alternated weeks at a time and definitely were expected to be at work in the morning even if we were up at 2am talking to the ER for an hour or so. Thankfully we pretty much never had an issue where we would have to go back on site, most problems could be solved remotely, but we did get time and half pay for any calls we took that required we log in so that was a nice bonus.

              3. Coverage Associate*

                I have news for people who think you can’t be on call through the night, get a night time call, handle it, and then work the full day: If your surgeon for a scheduled surgery is in a specialty that also has emergency call (like general surgery and Ob-Gyn), there’s a chance your surgeon has been up all night.

                I understand that hospitals are changing on call policies to reduce this, but it varies from practice to practice.

                1. Reluctant Mezzo*

                  That doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. Exhausted medical people make mistakes even if they try really hard not to.

                2. EDIA*

                  @Reluctant Mezzo

                  Coverage is just pointing out the practical realities of this situation. Social work/medical care like that which the letter concerns is one of those really noble causes that everybody says they support but then won’t actually go on to financially support. Yes, exhausted medical people make mistakes, and yes, that’s a bad thing. What’s your solution, then? More money, more resources? Okay, so convince the people with the money and resources to reallocate them here. Oh, but nobody’s biting? Yeah, we know.

            3. Heather*

              LW,

              What happens if someone works a lot of overnight emergency calls and they’re supposed to work the next day? Are they able to flex that time? Are they expected to work on no sleep? What if they have a court date, is that factored into the schedule?

          2. Snow Globe*

            It’s not about a system being unable to split a shift, it’s that for this to work, it would require splitting the shift of other workers as well, which means that it would be putting the burden on the rest of the staff to accommodate this one person.

          3. doreen*

            That’s doable in a large agency which this apparently isn’t. The problem is that an actual caseload where someone is responsible for working with particular families, isn’t compatible with a night shift ( you can’t visit families , or contact counseling services at 1am) which means that the night shift person can’t have a caseload which in turn increases the caseload of the people working during the day. And there likely aren’t enough night/weekend calls to justify a full shift. There are places where the police respond during off hours , but that has a lot of disadvantages.

          4. amylynn*

            Or might it make sense to have one person across multiple offices as a permanent third shift? I find it hard to believe that there are no night owls out there who might not prefer working late in exchange for not having to get up early. I realize that might be beyond the OP’s authority but I think it would be worth looking into, especially in her field where there is real work that happens outside normal business hours.

              1. amylynn*

                There’s nothing in OP’s letter indicating that they are in a rural area but obviously you would need to consider local conditions and the job. “On call” can mean a lot of things and may not necessarily mean “you need to leave your home and go somewhere at Zero Dark Thirty”. The situation does seem like one where you might be able to accommodate someone, namely night owls, while helping out this and other employees who don’t do nights well.

          1. Jay (no, the other one)*

            Weekends undoubtedly include nights. When I took weekend call it started at 5:00 PM Friday and ended at 8:00 AM Monday. Being on call is one of the primary reasons I retired at 61.

            1. doreen*

              Yes, I’ve never heard of an on-call schedule where one person was on-call from 8-4 Sat & Sun and someone else was on-call from 4-12 Sat & Sun. Not even where one person was on call from 4pm-midnight and another from midnight-8. It’s always from close of business one day to beginning of business another day , whether it’s COB Tues to BOB Wed, or COB Friday to BOB Monday or COB Monday to BOB the next Monday.

              1. Spero*

                we had that for my abuse-protection related job. The reason was that the first and second people on a weekend shift were almost always called their shift and so you needed to break into shorter shifts to have new coverage vs having a 6 person deep call list on call each time.

        5. Spero*

          I had a related job with mandatory on call, and we did have one employee who could not do overnights for a medical reason. The solution was basically that she was forced to pick up extra daytime call – so instead of 1 weekend per month and 2 overnights a week she got like 2 full weekends plus every Friday evening which was a frequent call window. So she basically had to take twice as many calls as anyone else. It wasn’t a great solution for her burnout but I did feel like the other employees felt like she more than made up for not doing overnights.

      3. MK*

        A medical accommodation usually requires a medical condition, and “heavy sleeper” hardly qualifies. And her being exempt means her coworkers will have to take more calls.

        1. VivaVaruna*

          I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it as being non-medical–there could be something like sleep apnea or a circadian rhythm disorder at play that’s making it harder for OP’s colleague to wake up during these specific hours.

          1. Broadway Duchess*

            But then, the documented cause isn’t “heavy sleeper,” it’s “sleep apnea” or whatever. MK is correct that heavy sleeper doesn’t qualify; the employee needs to get a diagnosis and the accommodation would need to be reasonable.

        2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Just because its not a diagnosed medical condition doesn’t mean they can’t come up with an accomodation to keep a good worker. Having a good social worker is worth trying to find a solution.. Lots of jobs have accomodations even if not for a diagnosed medical condition. Everyone being on a flex schedule for instance.

          1. Zelda*

            The distinction between “normal variations in the way bodies work” and “disorders” is defined in part by whether something causes a problem. (Lots of mental health diagnoses, e.g., set a threshold of “interferes with daily functioning.” Consider also lactose intolerance and its intersection with cultural foodways.) And an odd schedule makes traits matter that, for the vast majority of our society, *don’t* matter– most people would be 100% *fine* with sleeping very deeply during a portion of the night. So it’s never going to be considered a diagnosed medical condition, but it does interfere with *this* person’s ability to function in their job.

          2. Ralph*

            Let’s define “good”. Good should include not only performing one’s assigned duties at an acceptable level, but also, if the person works as part of a team, working well within the team. Making someone who is not on call get woken up and have to go to work is not good team dynamics.

        3. Observer*

          A medical accommodation usually requires a medical condition, and “heavy sleeper” hardly qualifies.

          That’s not something you can know. There are actually a number of medical issues that can mess with people’s sleep in odd ways.

          Sure, the LW’s office could require the CW to get medical documentation. But as a practical matter, given that this is someone who is otherwise good at the work and responsive, it makes a lot more sense to just work with them to see if it can be accommodated in a reasonable way.

        4. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          “And her being exempt means her coworkers will have to take more calls.”

          There are fairer accommodations, like she takes more pre-1 AM calls and others then take more post-1 AM calls (and of course other methods of waking up should be investigated). But there is no requirement that accommodations don’t inconvenience other people. Lots of people would like Saturdays off and have to work more Saturdays if someone has a religious accommodation not to work Saturdays.

          Also, she may need medical documentation but I don’t think she needs a diagnosis. If she really can’t wake up, it is a disability because a disability is “a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activity.” It is limiting a life activity for her because “major life activity” includes doing one’s job.

        5. jasmine*

          Legally? Sure. But if someone is physically unable to wake up at all when they’re asleep, then they’re unable to wake up when they’re asleep. A diagnosis or lack of diagnosis doesn’t change anything.

          The spirit of a medical accommodation is that it isn’t fair for people’s livelihoods to be threatened by things about their body that they can’t control. Whether an employer only accommodates people when they are legally required to is another story.

          1. Yorick*

            We don’t have any evidence that she’s physically unable to wake up at all when she’s asleep. It’s possible that she hears the phone, wakes up a bit, and then rolls over and goes back to sleep the way many people do with their alarms.

              1. Pyjamas*

                1) it’s the simplest explanation.
                2) if she had a medical condition, wouldn’t she have said something after 3 misses‽

                1. Craig*

                  not everyone is aware of their medical conditions especially if its stopping them doing something unusual. when was the last time you tried to get up at 3am to see if you could?

                2. Krystle*

                  Sleep disorders in particular are often undiagnosed. Even most doctors don’t know the majority of them.

                3. tinyhipsterboy*

                  Is it really the simplest explanation? From what we know of the situation, it’s just as simple to assume the employee simply sleeps straight through the alarm, not wakes up and specifically turns it off. Remember, we’re supposed to give them the benefit of the doubt here.

                  Not everybody knows they *have* medical conditions, either. If being unable to wake up in the wee hours of the morning hasn’t ever caused them issues before this point, they may not have had any reason to explore medical conditions that could do this.

                  And even if it’s just that the coworker is a heavy sleeper, there are still things it’d be reasonable for the company to request before firing someone who is legitimately strong in every other aspect of the job. That seems to be the sticking point: the coworker isn’t just ok at their job, but great overall, just not specifically at 3am.

                  imo, it’d be reasonable for management to ask for clear updates to show it’s in good faith and not just laziness, but the coworker could try linking their ringtone to a louder speaker or alarm clock, buying a budget smartwatch to wear when asleep so calls make their wrist vibrate, and so on.

          2. kalli*

            That only works if someone takes jobs they still have the capacity for when assisted.

            I can’t talk, ain’t no Broadway play accommodating me by letting me mime.

            If my role was the pageboy – the silent role – then my casting would be, in a word, sublime.

        6. Hereagain*

          For number one, since everyone knows this is a struggle, the manager should be paired with Sleepy Coworker until they figure out an alternate wake-up method or whatever they decide to do. Since they know this is an issue and they don’t want to lose her as a worker (I’m a foster mother and interact with the system regularly and would be really shocked if this was enough to lose an otherwise good worker), the manager needs to step in and stop making it the other branch’s problem by allowing the call to progress to another branch.

          In my county, the on call worker sleeps at the office. Maybe investigate that for workers who struggle or who live far away, etc. It is treated as a perk for employees, weirdly enough .

          Also- perhaps this employee just needs to be awake when on call during those hours and shorten their next day accordingly. I know overnight call is supposed to have sleeping, but if nothing else works, perhaps she just plans to sleep from 7pm to 2am and starts her day then. It would suck, but less than losing her job.

          Another potential thing- incentivize on call shifts. In my county, they pay the base rate per hour and double for any hour you’re working after 8pm and before 8am. People don’t mind waking up for 70 bucks per hour.

          1. Reluctant Mezzo*

            That would involve social workers getting paid real money, which we all know doesn’t happen.

            1. Hereagain*

              Most child welfare workers are not social workers, which is actually a protected term in many states, but are “caseworkers” or “family service specialists” or whatever term is popular that year. It is a horrible job, but in my state you can make 65k with a HS diploma and 2 years of training, and 80k with an AA. It is nowhere near enough, but it’s not poverty wages here by any means. The actual MSWs and LCSWs make over 100k doing supervision and management work.

        1. That Crazy Cat Lady*

          Agreed. Someone is going to have to cover those hours, and it’s really not fair to place that burden on another worker just because someone is a heavy sleeper. And if there are medical issues at play, maybe one of Alison’s suggestions can help.

      5. ThatOtherClare*

        The replies to this question above seem to assume that removing her from the 2am shift would add extra work for someone else, but it doesn’t have to. Are there any chronically early birds who’d be willing to do a split-shift arrangement? As in they take the late hours of her shift and she takes the early hours of theirs? I personally know several people who hate late nights and wake up at 4am who would jump at the chance to only do mornings on call, especially if you ‘compensate’ the volunteer by making the second half a little shorter so they ‘gain something’ in overall hours. If you ask around you might discover that you’re in luck.

        1. Allonge*

          It’s not a night shift. It’s being on call, in addition to the regular office hours; anyone added to the roster to replace this person would just be on call more.

          1. Green great dragon*

            They would be on call more often, but for less time, and could end up being called out less overall given the patterns.

            1. Yvve*

              That could work, especially since there’s eight other people who might potentially be interested in taking the occasional less-busy midnight shift. It’s at least worth looking into

            2. Allonge*

              Look, I get that this is personal, but if my sleep has the chance to be interrupted during the night, I don’t find consolation in the part where it’s ‘only’ between 2 and 5 am and not the whole night.

              Yes, it gives me somewhat more flexibility for the evening plans. But it’s a night when I am on call either way.

              If it’s part of the job, it’s part of the job. If it happens more often because someone cannot wake up (and it’s also part of their job), I will not be a happy camper.

              1. Green great dragon*

                I think you’re right in that it won’t suit everyone, and LW shouldn’t impose it. But I think there are people that it will suit, and it’s worth LW asking if they don’t have a better solution.

              2. Yorick*

                That is probably everyone’s (or at least most people’s) least favorite time to be on call. It’s annoying to not be able to make evening plans because of being on call, but it’s way worse to possibly have to wake up at 2am and go handle something urgent at work.

                1. Great Frogs of Literature*

                  The patterns may be different at this particular job (I work in tech), but for me, while actually being woken up at 2am is my least favorite part of the job, it’s also extremely rare (a few times a year), and I find the restrictions around things I can’t go during the day to be more limiting. Some folks are saying that it messes with their sleep because they’re worried about waking up, and I’m sure that’s true for them, but I’m not a night owl and will reliably be in bed from 10pm to 6am pretty much regardless, and barring a call, will sleep whether I’m on call or not. It would be a little annoying to take twice as many overnight calls, but if it reduced the daytime hours where I feel like I can’t go out and do anything, that’s potentially a win for me.

                  (I should say that my job is also understanding that if you’ve been awake since 3am, you aren’t going to be able to work your full normal workday, which certainly affects my opinion on things.)

        2. Also-ADHD*

          Being on call two half nights and one half weekend a (whatever the period was) sounds worse than just doing the full night and not having double the nights to me, though I’m not sure it feels that way to everyone. Either way, I think “this may not be the job for you” isn’t necessarily where I’d go for the example, a job that the person does well and is hard to fill. I’d look for solutions and give a lot more grace than 3 times ever, but I get that it’s a difficult situation. The constant level of on call, to an already high skill, high stress, and usually not high paying job, must make it hard to stay full up with good workers. And I don’t think anyone here should be questioning the employee’s attitude or willingness when LW says it’s not that.

          1. Reluctant Mezzo*

            On call, get woke up, work several hours and then work a full day in just a few hours? That sounds like a horrible system. Nobody is served well that way.

        3. I edit everything*

          Right–if the sleeper would be willing to take extra “shoulder hours” calls in exchange for others picking up the less-frequent “wee hours” calls, I could see some coworkers being willing to do that. The sleeper might not be, though, because it would mean a fair amount of additional calls for her.

          1. Irish Teacher.*

            Yeah, it seems like it might be worth asking if anybody would be interested. Maybe she and one other person split nights twice in the rotation rather than doing one each. Yeah, it would mean the other person (and the person with the sleep issue) would be on twice as often, but it would also mean they could be sure of being free until say midnight, so they would no longer have to be available any evenings.

            It shouldn’t be required of anybody, but if somebody liked the idea, it might work for everybody.

            1. Vimto*

              but what happens when that person picking up the early on-call task leaves? You’re back to square one, looking down the barrel of firing a good employee who can’t fulfil one function of the role, or going cap in hand to the other employees so that you can continue to make an exception for one person.
              And what happens when other employees also want to not answer the phone at 3am? What happens when your owls-to-larks ratio tilts too far in one direction?

        5. Daisy-dog*

          But is it a super clear line that she’s too asleep to answer? Is it distinctly after 2 a.m. or do other factors play into it (like if there were previous calls that evening and her REM cycles are thrown off)? Would the accommodation be that she stays awake until 2 a.m. and then can sleep?

          And as someone else mentioned, that would require that post-2 a.m. person have adequate childcare (which was discussed in a previous letter). They also wouldn’t be able to drink alcohol or do anything else that might mean they themselves might not wake up in wee hours.

      6. Alicent*

        I worked an on call job and would absolutely quit if my coworker got to skip middle of the night calls because she had a hard time waking up and I had to pick up the slack. That’s really not an acceptable solution unless the boss does it for her.

      7. Dust Bunny*

        If it involves making everyone else do more wee-hours on-calls . . . no.

        It sounds like this is an integral part of the job, and this person may simply be better suited for something that does not have overnight on-calls. (I could do these on-calls. My mother, who sleeps like the dead, could not. People are different.)

      8. Yorick*

        I don’t think splitting the nights are a good solution, but having a backup on-call person assigned might be a good idea. Not just for this employee, but for all on-call shifts.

        I do think it’s a good idea to work with the employee to figure out solutions, but eventually you might have to let this person go. It’s not appropriate to let one person just not do the worst part of the job (everybody would prefer to respond to the evening and morning calls and skip the 3am calls), even if it does turn out to be a medical issue. (We don’t know it’s a medical issue, btw. Alison just suggested they try to solve it the same way they’d try to solve a medical issue)

      9. Anat*

        Yes, I would also think there might be a way for flexibility here. The LW says that the evening hours are generally much busier than the middle of the night hours. Is there no one who is willing to trade their own evening hours for the sleeping worker’s middle-of-the night hours? That way, the former worker would have a lot fewer calls to answer (and more evenings free), while the latter would do more work during the hours when they can do it really well.

    3. HospitalCall*

      Also work in medicine and with emergency on call. Three strikes you’re out. We depend on the on-callers to respond. This is not the job for them.

      1. gandalf the tired*

        I work in child welfare. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find good social workers in this field? We are underpaid, overworked and exhausted. When someone leaves that means their position is usually open for months while we try to find someone else willing to do this deeply difficult work for very low wages, meaning that I and my coworkers have to pick up their caseload when our normal caseloads are already too high. The last time a coworker quit, it was almost a year before we were able to hire someone new. (If you’re thinking that does not sound great for the kids we work with, that is correct) It’s insane to say you should fire an otherwise good social worker because of something like this instead of working with them to try to find solutions.

        1. Despachito*

          This.

          If people are underpaid, overworked and exhausted (which unfortunately holds true for this profession all over the world), firing them does not sound exactly like a threat and it would be a disservice to everyone involved, coworkers as well as the clients.

          How do you hold an underpaid and overworked qualified person in a highly stressful environment to the same standards as if they were well-paid and relaxed? What leverage do you have if they can easily leave for a less stressful and perhaps even more paid job at Walmart?

          I do not say it is a good thing (on the contrary, and it is very sad) but this is the situation where I am (outside the US, but it seems very similar),

          1. Ohio Duck*

            They should pursue other methods for waking up that Alison already talked about – lights, vibration, louder sounds.

            People are getting way ahead of themselves, debating the best way to fire her or cover her shift before any of these solutions have been tried. It’s fair to bring up as a possibility, but it’s not the main issue to solve here.

          2. Observer*

            What do you think they should do here?

            Look at what technology solutions might work, and be willing to pay for them.

        3. Eva*

          What you say makes sense. Maybe the workers are in a good position then to insist that they create a night shift role so that these already overworked, underpaid people could at least get their sleep. No wonder these roles are hard to fill.

        4. doreen*

          I don’t think the letter mentions this person actually being a social worker. When I worked in child welfare, almost no one I knew had a degree in social work. We weren’t social workers , we were caseworkers and although we needed a degree, we didn’t need a master’s in social work or a license which meant we couldn’t work as an actual “social worker”. I don’t disagree that it’s hard to hire someone good , but – I was hired in a class of about 40 people to work in a particular office. More than half of us were gone within a year, and by three years, I think there were five of us left. My agency was large enough that there was a whole separate group of people who worked nights, holidays and weekends so we were never on call and still the turnover was crazy. If I had been required to be on call and I had to do it more frequently because a coworker was exempt, I would either developed a problem waking up myself or would have quit sooner.

        5. Ashley*

          Honestly if my co-worker was decent at their job and I knew them being fired meant way more work for me, the split on call might be something I would volunteer for because the cost benefit analysis. It may not be long term sustainable but for 6 months while medical and device options are explored it could be worth it.
          Buy-in from the other folks is key as well as this being an otherwise good co-worker. (Which isn’t always the same an an employee because people can be meet the standards for their job but just not be likable as a co-worker because they are that annoying person in the office.)

        6. Vimto*

          @gandalf, if you were this employees coworker, what would you want the solution to be? Would you take their on-call nights?

        7. K in Boston*

          Thanks for chiming in, gandalf, and providing your perspective. Given all the constraints of child-welfare work as it is, I’m surprised that 1) so many people are suggesting it would be better to fire this person than to at least try a number of preliminary measures that at least have the possibility of a solution that works reasonably well for the current team makeup, as opposed to firing them and making it a guarantee that the rest of the team would need to take on additional work for at least some period of time; and 2) so many people seem to be pressing for a perfect, amazing solution that everyone is happy with and works 100% of the time for 100% of people — when the nature of a field with extremely high stakes and an extremely low budget is that “one size fits all” can’t be the answer to everything.

          I’m not a social worker but have worked with enough to understand that it’s not a field where you can afford to only deal in perfect answers. Sometimes you just have to make the best of a bunch of imperfect answers.

      2. allathian*

        Yeah, I think there’s a disconnect here that I also made before, emergency social work is not the same as being a nurse. The training is often longer (may require a Master’s degree in social work) and they’re paid less than nurses who rotate shifts, at least in my area.

        But maybe she should transfer out of emergency social work and stick to “regular” social work instead. Some social workers can and do work a standard 9-5 workweek. My coworker’s wife was able to do that when she had a medical issue that meant that she could no longer work nights or be on call. She got so anxious that she couldn’t sleep at all on the nights that she was on call.

    4. Dog momma*

      Interesting. RN here who’s worked her share of nights. Have never gave I ever run into a nurse on nights sleeping at the desk or elsewhere. We were busy and had a work ethic!

      1. Jeanine*

        Interesting, it sounds like this person also has a work ethic! The OP said they are great every other time, so why in the world would you think they don’t have a work ethic?

      2. Onelia*

        Who said she doesn’t have a work ethic?

        I think you need to re-read the post. The employee in question isn’t at work or working a shift during the night. She’s at home but on call, which means she is expected to go about her usual life but ready to respond if called out (and only if she’s called out). This doesn’t mean she’s actually sleeping on the job.

      4. Lola*

        Nurses also are more likely have unions and strict rules about shifts and hours in ways that social worker and case managers do not.

        As someone who works at a hospital, I have met some lazy nurses and plenty of incredibly hardworking social workers/case managers. There’s hardly one way to characterize any one group.

    5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Working overnight as a nurse is very different than working on call where you can still sleep. For one thing, its a rotation and you typically still have your normal working hours, so you can’t expect people to change their sleep schedule like you can when you have a nurse who is going to work overnights.

      It’s really odd that you think they are doing this for dark purposes? Especially when they are great at everything else.

    6. SarahB*

      I started taking a medication for a condition that knocks me out at night. It’s really hard to wake me up. What are the factors that should be considered if the person is now unable to wake up due to a medical condition that is protected by the ADA?

    7. Heavy sleeper*

      For letter writer #1
      If someone is otherwise hard working there is more to the story. I had this issue when I was on call. I have a hard time falling asleep but am very good at staying asleep. Here are some literal solutions. You can go into accessibility features on the phone and set it to both flash and vibrate as well as ring. The ring is louder if put in a glass. I also have a vibrating alarm clock that someone who can’t hear would use. It was terribly embarrassing and I felt awful about missed calls. Depending on the environment we also started putting 2 people on call. At one point I would take weekends and just stay up (it ruined my weekend but solved the problem).

      It is unlikely if this person is otherwise good at work they are doing this on purpose. I know I was desperate to find a solution.

    8. Just Thinkin' Here*

      The real issue is that they are not staffing people for overnight – instead they are making their employees be on-call and it sounds like the on-call is being used regularly. It’s time to have a 3rd shift or hire someone specifically for 2nd shift plus overtime.

      1. Reluctant Mezzo*

        This! Since this appears to be a job which is paid about as much as someone at KFC, something needs to be worked out or there won’t be *anybody* in that office.

      3. Jennifer Strange*

        Ah yes, just create a new role using the money from the bottomless vault they apparently have.

    9. judyjudyjudy*

      It seems like there are a lot of replies that are either, “fire this person immediately” or “change the entire system and everyone’s schedules to accommodate this one person.” Maybe start with low hanging fruit first, like some of the wake up aids suggested in this thread. Vibration mats, extra loud alarms, etc. Best of luck.

  2. Bye Academia*

    How many different wake up devices has the person tried? I’d have a hard time hearing a phone call in my deepest sleep, but it would also vibrate my Apple Watch which does a better job waking me up.

    1. Bookworm*

      I came here to say this. I’m one of those people that in pre-smartphone days would have two alarm clocks in different places in my bedroom because I’m a deep sleeper. With iPhone, I can have staggered alarms and different tones. Add in an Apple Watch on my wrist and I don’t miss alarms at all now.

      1. Beveled Edge*

        I’m sleeping through four alarms on my smart phone now. Sometimes your body is determined to sleep. (And I’m not interested in an Apple watch.)

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          That’s my concern. We had a pager that could wake the dead. My 1st time on call, my blood ran cold and I thought the house was on fire and was reacting accordingly until coherent enough to realize I’d been paged.

          Six months later, I was awoken by my supervisor following up on two missed pages. (Granted, my weeks were bottoming out at 90 hours each during that interval). If Technology is LW1’s solution, I’d start working on plan B asap for when the employee’s subconscious learns to filter out the alarms.

        2. biobotb*

          But in that case, someone should consider whether a job with night-time on-call work is right for them. It’s not right for everyone.

          1. Jackalope*

            And that may be the case, but the OP is not the one having the problem. It’s possible that eventually she’ll need to let this employee go, but considering a career path change is the employee’s business, not hers.

        3. The Rural Juror*

          My sunrise alarm has been a huge help (I’m soooo slow to wake up!). Wouldn’t work for the person missing the unpredictable calls, though.

        4. pocket sized polly*

          Okay well it also sounds like you’re not the LW’s coworker who might be in danger of alienating their coworkers and/or losing their job or at the very least, indirectly affecting a child’s welfare because they keep sleeping through middle of the night emergency calls. So whether or not you’re interested in having/getting an Apple Watch, whether or not you’re sleeping through 4 phone alarms now, if you were the LW’s coworker, you’d probably be motivated to somehow figure out a solution–maybe 5 phone alarms. Maybe 4 phone alarms and an old-school alarm clock on the other side of the bedroom. Maybe turning the phone ringer up to max and having it right next to your head while sleeping. Maybe just not going to sleep at all on the nights you’re on-call*. I don’t know, I’m not the LW’s coworker.

          *Definitely not healthy or safe, especially in the longterm! But right now, it sort of seems like a case of “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!” at least as far as the coworker is concerned so like…they have to try something. Or at least something else beyond what they’ve already tried (assuming they have actually tried anything).

          1. Reluctant Mezzo*

            Well, paying minimum wage and then slamming the worker for not wanting to work 24 hours in a row is a really good way to lose people who are otherwise good at what they do. Guilting them for needing sleep seems like an odd way to motivate people to stay in a field that pays bupkes.

        5. hiraeth*

          Yeah, me too. So that’s when you change it up again. I have a series of alarms on my phone with different tones, and when I start sleeping through more of them than I’d like, I change the tones and put the phone in a different part of the bedroom so I have to wake up enough to find it when it goes off. There may be a series of solutions rather than one perfect, permanent one. That doesn’t mean you don’t try.

      2. Percysowner*

        I also found a few apps that will turn the light on your phone on, which might help. I use a sunrise alarm and I almost always wake up before the sound goes off because the light wakes me.

    2. Snow Globe*

      When my son was in high school, I got him an alarm clock that had a piece that vibrates and goes under the mattress. So the whole bed shakes when it goes off. It worked great when nothing else did.

    3. Katydid*

      I would recommend something that vibrates as well, I am an EMT and my pager is very loud but also vibrates on my nightstand which helps me wake up much more than the phone going off. I will say that I’ve had times where I am really struggling to move quickly to get dressed and get out the door, but when I worked in roles where I just needed to answer the phone it was easier- get up immediately, go to the kitchen or my office, turn on lights etc

    4. JustaTech*

      Yes, there are a lot of technological options to address this.

      When my husband worked at a tech startup he was on-call for the better part of two years, which involved a non-zero number of 3am calls. Eventually he got tired of being the only person on call and created a rota. This was fine except that people just used their cell phones and didn’t have an physical pager, so they slept through things regularly (so my husband got called anyway). The solution was to 1) have people change the ring tone for calls coming from the “pager” and eventually 2) get a physical pager, because it was just that much more annoying.

      As someone who once slept through the smoke detector going off (I was a kid, it was a false alarm), I understand that some people just sleep very heavily. When I’ve had to be on-call I’ve made sure to address that up-front with very loud and obnoxious ring tones.

    5. Hedgehog*

      Personally, for a job that requires late shifts this infrequently (if I’m reading it right, it’s 3 overnight on-call shifts every 2 months), I’ve really only been able to handle similar by taking stimulant meds to prevent myself from falling into a deep sleep.

      Alarms weren’t going to do it. But, as long as I slept well the rest of the time, I could recover from a few low-sleep nights periodically. If I ended up being awake longer than I strictly needed to be, I just used that extra time to read or fold clothes or something.

      It’s sometimes called “shift work sleep disorder,” which, yeah, it’s only a condition if you have shift work. It’s not exactly a medical condition outside of that context. But, if the child welfare pro has it, a prescription might be the only option that really works.

  3. Caramel & Cheddar*

    3) Aside from the point raised about wearing a political button to stave off political discussion, I don’t know that your chosen button would even have this effect. I don’t know that the average person knows who Cornel West is and could identify him on a button. I do and I still wouldn’t know that they was meant to convey “don’t talk to me about politics” because the only time I encounter him is when he’s talking about politics. This just seems like an incredibly weird and niche way to go about solving this issue and I’m curious how you came up with it.

    1. BuildMeUp*

      Yeah, I vaguely recognized the name but had to google him. Most people will either be in my shoes, or only familiar with him for his more controversial/newsworthy press.

      OP, I also think you’re more likely to encounter arguments with your idea, because voting third party can be controversial/something a lot of people have opinions about. You’re much better off just politely making it known that you’d rather talk about something else.

      1. Non non non all the way home*

        Removed because this became derailing and I don’t want electoral politics here. – Alison

      2. Anna A*

        I’d try this, after checking the guidelines for your area’s poll workers. “I’m considering becoming a poll worker and that means not talking politics.”

        We aren’t allowed to talk politics at the polls, and only know another person’s party by the color of the link on their official name tag. (and knowing that you are paired with a person of the opposite party)

        1. Ana Gram*

          I would find this to be an odd comment. I’ve been a poll worker several times and while we can’t discuss politics while working the polls, it’s not a blanket ban for all of life. I don’t think people would be fooled by this.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            Yeah, I’ve canvassed for a candidate and then worked the polls for an election where they were on the ballot. I’m scrupulous about keeping the two roles separate: I follow all the rules, I stop people from talking politics in the polling location, I even try to avoid wearing anything red or blue (or green).

            My job as an election worker is to make sure that everyone who is eligible to vote can vote, and I care more about that than my preferred candidate or party winning.

          2. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

            Absolutely. I’ve been a poll worker numerous times, and the *only* place I couldn’t talk sbout politics was AT the polling place ON election day.

            If someone tried to use that as an excuse for not about politics I any other set of circumstances than what I just listed above, I would immedatspely know that they were NOT a poll worker and wonder how they came up with such a weird idea!

        2. Antilles*

          This feels like a strategy that sounds better in theory, but wouldn’t work at all in real life.
          Why? Because “I’m considering becoming a poll worker” is a unique enough justification that it would draw more attention to OP and would be practically guaranteed to draw a ton of follow-up questions. Oh, what’s the process for becoming a poll worker like? It’s only two months from the election, how are they preparing you? How much of a time commitment is that? Is there training involved? What’s the schedule like? Are you really completely banned from talking politics ever?
          Then once people realize that OP didn’t end up becoming a poll worker, they would likely assume that OP is interested in politics (since you cared enough to volunteer as part of the process) and likely end up talking politics with OP even more than now!

        3. amylynn*

          That’s unnecessary – you don’t need to make up a reason. Just say directly that you don’t want to talk politics at work. You might find that some people (of all political persuasions) are relieved.

          I have the mirror problem of the OP, but I am also fortunate that I work for a state agency and that it’s generally understood that you probably shouldn’t talk politics at work.

          1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

            This. No need for a comlicated signal or white lie, just use your words that convey what you want. I do not wish to discuss politics at work.

            But honestly OP, they might not talk politics with you, but you are going to hear conversations about it. You can’t stop the whole office from talking about it just to accomodate you.

            1. JTP*

              The attitudes of “I don’t want to hear ANY political talk” and voting third-party seem to go hand-in-hand. Both are pretty “My way or the highway.”

              1. Lightbourne Elite*

                Yeah, “I think no one else should talk politics because I’m personally uncomfortable with it. So I’m going to make a political statement and then act affronted when people respond to it” sounds like the “logic” I’d expect, honestly

            2. Observer*

              But honestly OP, they might not talk politics with you, but you are going to hear conversations about it. You can’t stop the whole office from talking about it just to accomodate you.

              Very much this. And if you really cannot form bonds with people who talk about a common subject in front of you, you need to start looking for a job where those bonds are not important. Because I don’t think you will ever find a place where it will be reasonable to expect people who discuss politics to never discuss them “in front of you” / where you can hear it. And it’s going to be rather hard to find a place where politics are *never* discussed.

              There are some exceptions, so if your field allows for it, that’s your other choice. Like, many government agencies have some pretty strict rules around politics talk at work. So that’s where you could look.

        4. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          Minor nitpick: it’s not “the opposite party”, it’s “a different party”. I live in a very blue area and my wife has volunteered as a poll worker a few times; sometimes the pairs here are a Democrat and a Green party member, since Republican poll workers here are very rare.

          1. commensally*

            I’m in a purple county, and even here, Republican poll workers are hard to get; we usually end up with about half as many Republicans as Democrats and the balance filled in with independents even though overall registrations between the two large parties are about even. (I’ll refrain from theorizing about why that may be, since we aren’t supposed to be getting political, but it’s fairly universal from what I’ve heard.)

            Anyway, poll workers are absolutely allowed to talk about partisan politics when they’re not on the job, this is a really strange suggestion. (Also if LW’s coworkes are politically active there’s a reasonable chance at least one of them has worked the polls at some point or knows someone who does, and would want to discuss it with them, I always get people asking about it when I mention I’ve done it.)

            1. Clisby*

              How do you even know what part poll workers espouse? (Unless they tell you, of course.) I also have no idea what it means to “pair” poll workers. My state doesn’t register voters by party, so the only way anyone could possibly know someone’s party affiliation is if they told you.

              1. commensally*

                Well, I was working as a poll worker, and I talked to the people I was working with. (It was in my small community some of them were people I already knew, anyway.) We don’t wear badges or anything, but you aren’t forbidden to ask.

                We have a law here that there have to be two chief judges with different party affiliations at each polling place – that’s arranged by the elections board. For most things it didn’t matter but a lot of things needed both chiefs and there are also some usual situations where there have to be two poll workers of different party affiliations to sign off on or witness something so the poll workers at a polling place knew who they could pull over to pair with for those.

                The reason I know it’s a more widespread issue is that since the pandemic our elections board has been even more short of non-Democrats than usual – the already rarer reliable Republican poll workers were more likely to be older retired people than the Democrats, and a lot of them (reasonably) decided it was too much of an infection risk. So they’ve been desperately advertising for non-Democrats to sign up, especially as Chief, please, we need you!

                Every state is a little bit different, though, I don’t know if states that don’t keep a record of party affiliation have similar rules.

                (if anyone is able to be a poll worker I encourage you to look into signing up, more people are always needed.)

              2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                In my state people *are* registered by party, and that is public record, so it’s known to the organizers. Your state may differ in requirements for poll workers.

              3. Donkey Hotey*

                My state does not register people by party, but they still ask poll workers in order to pair them properly. And by pair, they mean two people of different parties working together.

          2. MigraineMonth*

            I come from a state where Republicans and Democrats duke it out in the legislature, while Libertarians are trying to dissolve the legislature. It adds excitement to the same-old policy arguments.

    2. MK*

      I really fail to understand how OP came to the conclusion that declaring her affiliation for a political figure could signal she doesn’t want to talk about politics. Also, why she needs to do that before feeling comfortable telling people she doesn’t want to talk about politics, instead of telling people that in the first place?

      1. Anonys*

        I think LW’s logic is a little convoluted here but from how I understand the letter, LW thinks that the coworkers talk to her about politics only because they assume everyone in the office is a Democrat/Harris supporter like them. By wearing the button and thereby declaring her support for a third party candidate (West), OP believes that her coworkers will reign in the political talk around her. Basically the logic is that the coworkers are not interested in controversial political debate (rather they are “bonding” over shared political convictions) and will stop making pro-Harris comments around LW.

        I think what’s more like to happen is that:
        – people will be curious and ask her what the button is about because they don’t recognize or know Cornel West
        – people will want to talk to OP about why they support a third party candidate or convince her that voting for a third party strengthens Trump

        1. sparkle emoji*

          Yeah, being public about your support for a controversial candidate will not have the effect you’re looking for LW. It will read to others as you trying to start a discussion or a debate, not prevent one.

          1. Observer*

            It will read to others as you trying to start a discussion or a debate, not prevent one.

            And with good reason. 9 times out of 10, wearing a button is a way to actually make a statement.

            And the 10th time? To me it seems that for the most part it’s intended as way to snark at people without “saying something.” iow a touch of rules lawyering.

            1. Anonys*

              Yeah, I mean if someone literally wears their political conviction on their person/clothing it’s not an unreasonable assumption that they would be open to talking about it

        2. Daisy-dog*

          Oof, the third party point is one that people loved to fixate on right after 2016. Definitely beware, LW.

        3. Middle Aged Lady*

          Ugh, it’s hard to know what to do. Even if the OP takes Askamanager’s advice and says they don’t want to talk about it, there are people who won’t stop! ‘Why don’t you want to talk about politics?’ ‘Everyone should be engaged!’ And on and on. I have even used the ‘doctor’s orders, too stressful’ excuse and they ask what’s wrong with me.

          1. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

            When they continue to press the issue, I would try saying something along these lines: “Like I said, I don’t like to discuss politics at work. That’s all I have to say about it.” If they demand a reason, say, “I don’t care to discuss that. Thanks for understanding.”

            No one is ENTITLED to an explanation, and you have NO obligation to give them one. They may may not like that, but that’s OKAY. They are being nosey and rude, and you have the RIGHT to simply decline to talk about something you don’t want to rank about.

          2. NPOQueen*

            I always say, “Political talk makes me anxious, I’m going to be an ostrich until Election Day.” My office is pretty liberal and the focus on mental health helps downplay things. Always said with a cheerful smile though, so people don’t feel guilty either. It usually does the trick, though when others around me talk politics, I just put my headphones in.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        I suspect she wanted to signal “I am not a great audience for your enthusiasms about how great Harris is and how we all need to work together to ensure she wins.” There ARE people who assume everybody agrees with them (I had one colleague who, when somebody basically said there were reasonable people on both sides of a political debate interpreted it as him saying everybody secretly agreed with her) so if she has a lot of colleagues like this, she might be thinking that making it clear she doesn’t agree would shut it down.

        And with some people, it might. Some people seem to interpret “avoid discussion of politics at work” as “avoid discussing politics with coworkers who might disagree with you (but it’s fine with people you know are on the same page)” but yeah, there are also people who will take wearing a political badge, not unreasonably, to mean “I’m really into this election and enjoy discussions on it.”

        (And I know third party candidates are a controversial thing in the US…and possible other countries with two-party systems?) So yeah, likely to lead to those arguments too.

        1. Lime green Pacer*

          Canada doesn’t have a two-party system, but Canadians have lots of opinions on whether it is a good idea to vote for a smaller party (“split the vote”).

          1. Anonys*

            Even in systems where you have many parties and form coalition governments, some parties will be so small that they are unlikely to get a seat. For example the party I voted for in the last European election didn’t get enough votes to get a seat in parliament and therefore my vote was “wasted”. I still prefer coalition systems to two-party but “Do I vote realistic or do I vote for conviction” can still be an issue.

            1. Irish Teacher.*

              In our system in Ireland, you can give that candidate your number 1 and then a candidate more likely to get in your number 2, so no vote is necessarily wasted. Plus our system is so convoluted that a party has to be pretty out-there to have no chance of getting any seats. There are a couple, but they are like really far-right or otherwise…not ones most people would consider voting for.

              But you can vote for as may candidates as you want. I once numbered all but one in a presidential election because the guy I didn’t vote for was anti-Traveller and anti-immigrant and I wanted to ensure my vote went against him, so after my 1st two or three choices, everybody else but him got numbered pretty randomly.

              There ARE problems with this system – if there was a perfect system, I guess everybody would use it – but it does mean you never have to say “I won’t vote for X because I’d be wasting my vote,” as you can always add lower preferences.

              1. HQetc*

                For those who are curious to learn more, this sort of system is called “ranked choice” voting. There are some jurisdictions in the US that have started using it in state and local elections because it can help to ameliorate some of the weird voting incentives that stem from the one-vote-only + two-party-system combo.

              2. MigraineMonth*

                Yeah, the system you describe (ranked-choice voting) has definite advantages over a single vote, but every system for selecting among more than two candidates has its drawbacks or can be gamed.

                For example, ranked-choice voting eliminates anyone who doesn’t get enough first-choice votes to proceed. So (in the inevitable pizza topping metaphor) three friends wants anchovies on the pizza, two want pineapple, and two want eggplant. All of them absolutely hate the other top-choice toppings, but would be fine with pepperoni (so rank it second). In ranked-choice voting, they actually end up with anchovies rather than the universally-acceptable pepperoni.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          I think the approach is to view it like you have joined an office that is EXTREMELY into baseball and assumes everyone else must be.

          “I don’t enjoy sports talk; how about that new bakery on 5th? Have you tried the cream doughnuts?” will get you farther than a button promoting curling.

    3. TheBunny*

      I don’t have a clue who he is. I’ll Google in a bit so no one needs to spend time telling me (LOL) but I can assure you that button wouldn’t work on me. Not that I use talk politics at work anyway…but were I inclined to start that button wouldn’t stop me as I’d have no clue.

      1. TheBunny*

        Googled…I do know who he is. But I can’t imagine how anything associated with him would signal “don’t talk about politics” as he’s essentially politics and nothing else?

        1. Morning Reader*

          I haven’t googled but I figure this thread gives me sufficient background. I too had no idea West is a candidate. I know him as a loquacious pundit and as a professor somewhere (east coast?) so if I saw his name or image on a button, there is no way I’d get the message “don’t talk about politics” because I’ve only ever seen him when he is talking about politics. I’d think the button-wearer was a fan of his style of talking. He always has something interesting to say. If anything I might start calling that person “my brother” in imitation of his style. Which would be a strange outcome but no stranger than thinking a button will prevent political conversation.

      2. Trout 'Waver*

        The button did work on you, though. It made you google the candidate and read about him. That’s the desired effect here.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          LW’s desire is to get people to stop talking about politics in front of / with them, not to get people to google their candidate. Wearing the button doesn’t stop people from doing the former, and the latter isn’t supported by what they actually wrote in their letter.

        2. Language Lover*

          Is it? The OP doesn’t want to talk politics. I don’t get the impression that they’re open to talking politics if they’re discussing a third-party candidate. People Googling him might lead to them wanting to talk about him.

    5. The Prettiest Curse*

      Cornel West is currently running for President! I’m not sure how wearing a button for your preferred Presidential candidate is supposed to stop people from talking to you about politics. It’s more likely to have the opposite effect, unless (as many people do) you take the view that expressing political views that align perfectly with your own isn’t political, but expressing views that don’t IS political.

      1. MK*

        On a second read, I suspect what OP really wants with this pin is to avoid being mistaken for a Trump supporter. Perhaps telling people she doesn’t want to discuss politics in a predominantly Democratic region makes them assume that.

        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          That’s a possibility, so they’ll have to wear 3 buttons to get their message across – Never Trump, Never Harris and Yay Cornel West. And the Cornel West for President button is probably just going to lead to people asking who he is – which is going to lead to a political discussion.

          Even a button that says “my political philosophy is too complicated to fit on a button” isn’t going to work here!

          1. Vincent Adultman’s assistant*

            Maybe it’s because I’m dumb but my immediate reaction to Cornell West was “the political activist/philosopher guy from the Matrix sequels???”

            Because yeah that’ll definitely shut down any and all further conversations (/s).

            So OP’s biggest worry shouldn’t be “people who know who West is may still want to talk politics with me” (…which they’ll do if you’re wearing a button endorsing a political candidate). Their biggest worry should actually be “people familiar with the Matrix sequels will want to discuss those with me when they see my Cornell West button.”
            And love or hate those movies, that is a fate worse than death at the workplace, if you’re actually trying to get work done and don’t ever want to actually engage with your coworkers outside of work-based conversations, you know?

            So yeah: no buttons. Just say you don’t want to talk politics at work at all. If someone keeps pressing the issue they’re the butt head.

          2. But Of Course*

            Oh no, a Cornel West button would send exactly the intended message to me. It would also bring along some additional messages that probably aren’t intentional, but that can be what happens when we declare our support for something.

        2. office hobbit*

          I think OP’s phrasing could do some heavy lifting there. “I don’t like talking politics” might indeed make me wonder about OP’s views, while something like “Oh, I’m so tired of taking about politics, how is [subject change]?” or “I get enough about politics from my [relative]! [Subject change]” would just make me think OP is sick of hearing about politics all the time.

          1. Unsure about that*

            “might make me wonder about OP’s views” is odd language.

            Do you planning on saying/doing/etc. something based on your wondering?

            The answer to that is you should not say/do/etc. anything.

            1. sparkle emoji*

              I think Office Hobbit is right that certain ways of asking for no political talk could suggest things to people or come off prickly. If LW cares about that, and it seems they do, they can use one of OH’s suggested scripts. Some people would want to phrase it in a friendly way to come off less cold. It’s fine to suggest scripts for that purpose.

            2. office hobbit*

              I was responding to MK’s wondering “I suspect what OP really wants with this pin is to avoid being mistaken for a Trump supporter.” If that is the case for OP and they want to avoid people wondering about their politics whether or not those people say/do anything (which I would not), I thought my suggested phrasings might help.

          2. learnedthehardway*

            If the OP is going to have a button – it should say, “Sick of politics. Let’s talk about puppies!” OR something like that.

            Probably not going to work, mind you. But better than a button that advocates for a minor candidate – that’s just going to invite political conversations.

            1. Anonymoose*

              I was thinking “Giant Meteor, ’24” or “Wu-Tang is Forever” as a way to easily deflect any political talk, but “Let’s talk about puppies!” might work better.

            2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

              Yeah, I think it’s important for any “don’t make me tap the sign” politics buttons to have a shiny and distracting subject change, or the conversation will become about not just politics but OP’s feelings about politics.

        3. Anonys*

          I actually think it’s much more about identifying herself as “not a Harris supporter” than anti-Trump. Everyone in the office already assumes “anti-Trump/pro-Harris”. OP wants to to point out that she supports neither of these candidates and therefore is not receptive to coworker’s comments praising Harris, which make OP feel othered as she in fact does not support Harris.

          1. Stipes*

            She wants to:
            • Stop people from including her in the Harris cheerleading,
            • without people assuming she’s a Trump supporter,
            • and without making it into a whole conversation.

            …I’m not sure that’s possible in the environment she’s in, honestly.

        4. Ladida*

          Yes this is what I think too, she does not want people to think she supports Trump. But you cannot control what other people think and if you refuse to disclose your political views at work (which I personally think is a wise choice as politics talk can bring unnecessary friction at work) people can classify you as whatever they like. So this is a risk she will have to take.

        5. Also-ADHD*

          LW could say that, “It’s not that I support Trump, but I’m not comfortable talking politics at work.” Etc. That’s one sentence though and way less confusing than explaining a button.

        6. Oodles of Noodles*

          If OP is concerned about being mistaken for a Trump support, about saying, “I hate Trump too but I prefer not to discuss politics at work.” The assumption will probably be that OP is a Harris supporter, but perhaps that’s an acceptable option.

          (I am CONSTANTLY telling family members to stop telling me what terrible thing Trump recently said. I’m 100% in agreement with them politically and I am actually more politically active than most of them, but I just don’t want to hear it about it.)

          1. Bitte Meddler*

            I’m right there with you, Oodles. [By the way, my cat’s nickname is Schnoodles and I am constantly calling her Oodles of Schnoodles.]

            My mom lives with me and watches a lot of MSNBC videos. I’ll just be headed to the kitchen for some water and she’ll “harrumph” and say, “Ugh! Guess what That Man just said at a rally!” and I just mumble, “Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope,” while I keep walking past her.

            I do *not* want to hear anything he has said. All it does is infuriate me because if Harris or any Dem said a fraction of what he did, they’d be drummed out of the public and political spheres in a microsecond.

            I have always hated double standards, especially as they apply to wealthy white men.

          2. hiraeth*

            Yep, I do this with my husband. I’m more left wing than he is and I’m politically active, but I need to pick and choose when I engage with it because otherwise I’m miserable. I really, really need to not be ambushed ten times a day with something that’s going to make me angry or scared or both.

      2. Caramel & Cheddar*

        It wasn’t until I read the replies to my comment that I learned West was even running for president, which I don’t think bodes well for both his campaign and hoping the average person will want to have a conversation about third party candidates based on the badge. I’m glad you knew he was; I suspect most people won’t.

    6. Nodramalama*

      Agree with this. Like keke palmer, sorry to this man but I have no idea who he is. Also obviously wearing a political pin will make people think you want to discuss politics!! That is basically the purpose of the pin

    7. Language Lover*

      lw#3

      If wearing buttons are appropriate at your workplace, why not go for one that is more direct? You can get “let’s not talk about politics” buttons on Etsy.

      Going with a political candidate, regardless of how they poll, is going to be counterproductive.

      3. Bilateralrope*

        That’s still going to have people talking politics with each other around the LW. The only change is leaving the LW out.

        It seems unreasonable to expect people to stop talking about something that affects their lives that much without a good reason. Especially in the lead up to an election.

        1. AnonforThis*

          I’m a government employee and so bound by Hatch Act restrictions. Buttons and advocating for a candidate on government time are not allowed (you are allowed to have bumper stickers). You are allowed to do these activities on your own time (except fundraising). Now because of the whole “make everyone Schedule F” thing, we’re intensely aware of how this would affect our job and that we might be on the chopping block.

          However, if you’re in an office where it is allowed I don’t reasonably see any way OP can ban political discussion around them. They can assert their support for a third
          party candidate but can’t avoid social consequences of doing so, that’s just reality. Now if it affects work environment you can talk to your boss. There are some jurisdictions where political affiliation is a protected class but those are a minority.

        2. sparkle emoji*

          Yeah the political talk sounds like that’s the existing culture of a workplace LW has entered. They should tell people directly that they don’t want to be a part of those discussions(no opaque hinting via campaign pin) and evaluate if the level of discussion is still too much. If they’re clear that they’re not interested in those discussions, some people will drop off with LW and go for more interested recipients. Either way, the political campaign pin feels more passive aggressive than helpful here. Skip it.

      4. Dark Macadamia*

        This is what I expected too! I googled Cornel West buttons thinking maybe there’s some specific quote he’s said about not discussing politics, but they’re all campaign ones.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          I don’t think she wants to wear the pin to indicate that she supports somebody who thinks discussing politics is bad. I think it’s more that she wants people to realise she doesn’t agree with them so they might be more circumspect about expressing their enthusiasm about Kamala Harris.

          I’m not sure it would be effective but I think she is looking for a way to say, “hey, maybe be aware that not everybody thinks it will be so awesome if/when Harris is president and make allowances for the fact that some of those listening to you might not agree with all your views.”

          1. amoeba*

            I mean, I do feel like that would actually invite *much more* political debate than being mistakenly assumed to agree with everybody else in the office? Like, voting third party is such a controversial topic that I don’t see how on earth that would be helpful to *avoid* talking politics?

            1. londonedit*

              I have no idea how it all works in the US (and generally speaking it’s not the done thing to talk much about politics in social situations/at work here in the UK, though of course when there’s a general election coming up people do) but I agree, I’d have thought that wearing a badge declaring support for a political candidate (especially a controversial one) is just going to invite more discussion. People will naturally assume that you’re engaged with politics and you’re happy to talk about the person you’re publicly endorsing via wearing a badge.

            2. sparkle emoji*

              Yeah, wearing a pin associated with a controversial candidate then insisting you won’t talk about it would read as passive aggressive to me. Directly asking for less political talk will be more effective.

    8. person*

      Cornel West is also a pretty open anti-vaxxer, so I’d be straight on to HR if someone publicly endorsed that in my workplace.

        1. Fishsticks*

          I suppose you could make a call and ask about the company’s vaccination policies. I work in health care, and we are required to be regularly vaccinated, including for flu and COVID-19, and exemptions aren’t easy to get like in some other companies. So I guess you could speak with HR as a way to verify whether or not your health is put at risk thanks to no policy or easy exemptions? I don’t know – I am just throwing a guess out?

          1. I should really pick a name*

            It sounds like person would specifically reporting the reference to Cornel West.
            It’s one thing to have a blanket don’t talk politics, but pushing back only on specific candidates is not great.

      2. Anonys*

        Of course employers in at-will states can discipline or fire people for pretty much anything they want but a sane employer has no business policing people’s opinions in this way.

        1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

          In many states, political activity is protected to varying degrees. In my area, you could bar all employees from wearing pins or discussing candidates, but if you disciplined or fired someone because of the specific candidate they wore a pin for (in this case, because there was a complaint of supporting an anti-vaxxer), it would be illegal. The only exception would be if supporting a particular party/candidate/piece of legislation is a bona fide job qualification (like you’re staffing a campaign).

          So yeah, definitely not something to mess with under most circumstances!

      3. Observer*

        so I’d be straight on to HR if someone publicly endorsed that in my workplace.

        And any competent HR will shut it right down.

        There are a lot of reasons to have issues with West, and the anti-vax issue is just one of them. But none of that is relevant. If someone starts protesting vaccinations at work, or tries to convince people to not vaccinate, that would be one thing – and HR should shut *that* down immediately. But this? Nope.

        But, LW keep in mind that not only is a political button in general a really bad way to stop political discussion, but choosing someone this controversial and genuinely problematic takes to a level where a lot of people are not going to believe that you *really* don’t want political discussion, and regardless it’s likely to inflame the discussion.

      4. Bitte Meddler*

        I wouldn’t head to HR, but I would make sure I was never in a close, confined space with them, at least not without me wearing an N95 mask.

    9. Pokemon Go To The Polls*

      I consider myself a relatively politically-informed person and I had never heard of him before (which TBH seems a little wild to me considering some of the online spaces I frequent and his platform) so I would assume that instead of not talking politics, you’d be explaining who he is all the time. If that’s your actual goal, you do you, but it’s not going to accomplish your stated goal of avoiding politics.

    10. olevia*

      OP #3 – You do like any one else who is faced with work conversations you don’t approve of (but are in no way illegal or even wrong): you nod, smile, change the conversation. Great work skills to develop. If you must wear a button, find a non-political button to wear. Librarian here suggests that “Read Banned Books” is a fine nonpartisan button. Or a happy face button if even that is too political for you.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Yeah, definitely not. Culture wars have gotten so omnipresent, I feel like talking about my cat is partisan these days…

          1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

            cat ownership essentially became partisan the moment what’s his name demonized “childless cat ladies”

    11. ariel*

      Legit shocked by how many of y’all don’t know Cornel West! Even assuming some are not American.

      OP, take Alison’s advice, leave the button off, and just redirect/stop political conversation. Sometimes I make an aside at work, and then immediately regret it because I have heard directly from some colleagues that political convo is a tense subject especially since 2015 – like, they changed their news habits because of the stress. I find that talking about issues is easier than talking about candidates, but workplace banter doesn’t have to be a place for that! If someone said something that stopped me, it would be help me keep the conversation on other topics.

      2. sparkle emoji*

        I mean I’ve heard of him and his candidacy, but he definitely isn’t one of the 3rd party options that has been getting attention this cycle. I’m even a little surprised to find out he’s still technically running, he’s completely fallen off the map after getting a little attention approx. 8 months ago.

      3. Goldfeesh*

        You are not alone on being surprised that so few people know who he is. However, with his current beliefs and the weird political turns he’s taken over the past 20 years I’m personally glad he hasn’t made much of an impact on the general public.

      4. Broadway Duchess*

        I was shocked at all of the “Who’s Cornel West?” posts for approximately 30 seconds. People curate their news sources such that they only really see what they want to see.

      5. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        I’ve heard of him, knew he was running, and my response to the post was to think “oh lord, is he still running? *huge eyeroll*”

    12. Yellow*

      I’ve never heard of Cornel West, and obviously have no idea what a Cornel West Button would even look like. And I’m fairly dialed in, politically. This is a bad idea and would not achieve what you want. Use your words. “I’m maxed out on Political Talk” would work wonders.

    13. And thanks for the coffee*

      I had no idea who Cornell West was and had to look him up. A more straightforward way to let others know that you’d prefer not to talk politics might be a button that says what you want.

      No political talk please.

    14. DataGirl*

      I had to Google him, found that he is a philosopher, still wouldn’t have any idea that he has anything to do with politics/ disliking politics.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        He is running for President, which is pretty prominent if you Google him (which I did in an incognito window to avoid (a) having my search history influence the results and (b) seeing ads from him.

    15. softcastle*

      Most of the people I know who own Cornel West buttons are trying to see how long it takes before others notice their Cornel West button, thus giving them the platform to talk at others about their beliefs. I’m guessing OP3 is wearing it more as a subtle mark of defiance in an “I Dare You To Talk To Me About Politics” kind of way, instead of genuinely wanting to avoid them at all costs.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I agree that, reading between the lines, this is probably what LW seems to want. But since we’re supposed to take letter writers at their word, I’m trying to take their chosen words at face value rather than assuming they’re being disingenuous. If they are in fact being disingenuous, they can disregard all the advice they’ve been given.

        1. softcasle*

          I agree–I think I’ll just take this letter at face value and assume this OP doesn’t actually want to talk politics. In which case I would advise against any kind of political button, and would instead suggest they make noncommittal shrugs and polite yet firm boundaries around not being interested in discussing things.

          Honestly, I’ve been there. My boss is an outspoken conservative while my coworkers are democrats, but it’s all discussed in the office in a very “outrage media”-type way (like when it comes out that a politician has done a New Crazy Thing). So it’s pretty easy to ignore, I usually just make some kind of “wow, it’s all a circus out there” comment and shrug my shoulders. People get it and leave me alone.

          One thing I would caution the OP on is to not use politics as a rigid measure to gauge your coworkers and whether or not to forge work-related relationships with them. It’s one thing if they’re talking politics All. The. Time. and it’s the only thing they discuss, and in return pushing you rudely to share your private opinions. HOWEVER, if they’re engaging in water cooler type talk casually and knowing your opinions are diametrically opposed to theirs–I would caution you on not creating false stories or scenarios in your head on how they might potentially react if they find out you’re a socialist or a libertarian, etc., and keeping them at arms’ length accordingly because you’ve convinced yourself they’re going to reject you. It sounds like OP might be preemptively othering themselves because they fear their coworkers won’t be accepting (but they should just try directly and succinctly shutting all political talk down before assuming the worst or wearing coded buttons!)

      2. Paris Geller*

        This is exactly how I would interpret it. I would assume wearing a Cornel West button is trying to *bait* people into political talk, not avoid it–and I would find them exhausting.

      3. Aerin*

        Which is kinda funny, because if OP3’s officemates are at all of the Vote Blue No Matter Who sort, they will accept that dare like it’s a marriage proposal from their true love. They will see that button as attaching a sign to OP3 saying “I am a voter who can–nay, must–be swayed to your side.” It’s walking into Fight Club wearing a shirt saying “You’re not man enough to hit me.”

    16. Ceanothus*

      I try very hard not to discuss politics at work and a Cornell West button would challenge that resolution in a way showing support for either of the other candidates the LW named would not.

    17. Abogado Avocado*

      Hey, LW #3, totally sympathetic here. I would add to Alison’s suggestion that you tell people you don’t talk about politics by saying, “But I DO talk about [insert what you talk about].” For me, it’s, “But I do talk about my cats! Ask me about them!”

    18. Momma Bear*

      I have a coworker on the other side of the aisle. We talk about ANYTHING ELSE but politics. Early on I said, “We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one – I’d rather not talk about politics at work. So…about that TPS report…” Every once in a while they will catch themselves going into a rant and if they don’t I’ll remind them I’m not the right audience. I keep it neutral, to the point, and short. And it’s not a lie. I think that’s better than a button that people may not even understand.

    19. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

      That was my first thought – I’ve never heard of this person and would have no idea how to interpret it. Of course, I wouldn’t be talking politics at work anyway – I too think it should be off the table as a topic of conversation there.

      I worked at a place where I was assumed to be on the same page politically with my fellow white, middle-aged, suburbanite co-workers. I was not, and I always felt so trapped because no matter how many times I said I didn’t want to talk politics or social issues with them, they would just talk right over me. I gave it as one of the many reasons I was leaving in my exit interview.

    20. LL*

      This. I know who he is and I know a little about his campaign and honestly, I’d lose respect for the co-worker.

    1. allathian*

      Ha no. I have a king size bed to myself, and often find myself sleeping diagonally across it, with my head in the foot end.

      1. Katie A*

        Okay but the vast majority of people don’t have that problem. This is an extreme version of “not everyone can have sandwiches” lol

        1. New Jack Karyn*

          Not really. I don’t starfish that badly, but my face is not in the same place throughout the night of sleep. I can’t be the only one.

    3. Magenta Sky*

      I recall seeing (many years ago) an article about a soldier who couldn’t wake up early enough, and kept getting in trouble for it. So he built a bed that literally flung him onto the floor – quite energetically – when the alarm went off. Problem solved.

        1. Media Monkey*

          when i have to get up super early i really want that wallace and gromit contraption to drop me fully dressed in front of my breakfast!

          2. JustaTech*

            In high school I had a Wallace and Gromit alarm clock that would say “Morning Gromit, time for walkies” and it scared me out of my skin every time it went off. I had to give it up after a week.

            1. A reader among many*

              I love that that exists, but I wouldn’t want it, either! Just the automated coffee and jammed toast, please.

      2. Two-Faced Big-Haired Food Critic*

        I once saw a book of inventions that were patented but never successfully marketed. One was an alarm clock that was rigged to hit a sleeping person (on the head, per the illustration) with little wooden blocks.

    4. Smurfette*

      My teenager literally cannot wake up unless
      – we spray him with water
      – we put the puppy on his bed to jump on him and lick his face

      Sometimes we have to do this more than once! He sets his alarm loud and discordant enough to wake the rest of the house, but still sleeps through it.

      So I feel for OP1 but also feel this should be treated as a medical issue and not a disciplinary one.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, thankfully my teen isn’t as much a night owl as many others his age (I wasn’t and neither was my husband), but he’ll sleep through any alarm that isn’t so loud it’d damage his hearing, like a fire alarm in daily use might.

        Sounds like your son might benefit from an alarm for the deaf that shakes the bed. At least that one wouldn’t wake everyone else.

      2. CommanderBanana*

        My poor sibling went through a few years of this when he was a teen. He literally Could. Not. Wake. Up. no matter what you did.

        1. The Rural Juror*

          That was my brother! He’d sleep through a freight train running through the living room if that happened. I usually woke up but was super groggy for a long time and couldn’t function. My mother was always so frustrated with us both in the mornings, poor woman.

      3. WhyAreThereSoManyBadManagers*

        I’d feel afraid for this teen or any other person (including this social worker) who sleeps that deeply that they wouldn’t wake up to even a fire or CO alarm going off, that could be life threatening. Or what if someone breaks into the house, or if another family is having a medical emergency & yelling to the teen for help? Seems they may need to see a sleep doctor.

        1. Starbuck*

          This is a bit much, my sister had similar issues as a teen (would sleep through our parents occasionally pounding on her door) but it was just because she was a sixteen year old and we had to get up at 6am to catch the bus. She was fine waking up a few hours later in the morning.

          And honestly, I think in a true emergency she would have been able to get herself moving. When it was just the routine daily alarm, it’s much easier to tune that out even as it escalates. Not willful exactly, but it’s amazing what the tired, teenage, ADHD brain can tune out when it needs more sleep.

        2. Smurfette*

          Fortunately he lives with other people who do wake up. I used to be the same, but I’m not as bad any more.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        I think they’re saying use a device that sprays you with water as the alarm, not suggesting that the person spray themself in the face to stop being sleepy after being woken up with the phone.

  5. SunnyShine*

    I work a job that requires me to be on call in the middle of the night. a while ago, I answered calls every night. One night I didn’t wake up from a call, and I’m the lightest sleeper ever! While it could medical related, it could just be that’s what bodies do.

    If calls are rare in the middle of the night, how is it that she missed three? Are others getting the same amount too? My job may require us to take turns, but my bosses also recognize that someone getting woken up every time they covered while others don’t isn’t fair either.

    1. TheBunny*

      I was wondering about this too. Is she somehow always covering Friday overnights, for example?

      Missing 3 calls implies there have been 3 to miss and this seems like a lot.

      1. Myrin*

        Doesn’t seem like it’s a lot in this situation, because OP says “true middle-of-the-night emergencies are more rare”, not just “rare”; and the “more” refers to the “[w]e get calls almost every night”. That could be something as simple as “middle-of-the-night calls happen every three days instead of every day”.

      2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I’m wondering what the time period is. Is it 3 in the last year? Or is it 3 in the last 3 months and she has missed all of the calls?

        1. The Rural Juror*

          That’s a good point. I believe they said they only do a full on-call weekend every 8 weeks. It’s possible the colleague missed all 3 calls in one weekend… but who knows?!

    2. Caroline*

      Slight semantics thing – LW1 didn’t actually say late night calls were rare, she said after-hours calls happened almost daily but late night calls were “more rare.” If late night calls are happening once every two weeks overall, and they’re evenly distributed across days of the week, and each on call person covers one day Sunday-Saturday weekly, that means one late late call per on call worker every fourteen weeks, or roughly four times a year. It wouldn’t take too long to rack up three missed calls at that rate!

      I fully understand the after hours calls may also not be evenly distributed and agree that’s something LW1 should look into, just wanted to point out that “more rare” compared to something happening frequently doesn’t mean exactly the same thing as “rare.”

      1. SunnyShine*

        I’m taking the “more rare” in the context of covering weekends every 8 or 10 weeks. Like it’s happening every time she covers the weekends? or maybe that’s just a misunderstanding on my part. We cover weekends. We also have a dedicated night shift person during the weeknights so for us it falls on the weekend night calls.

        Either way, people are bound to miss calls. Missing three calls over a year isn’t a lot. Three over two weeks is. so it’s hard to tell if this is a medical thing.

        1. Myrin*

          Yeah, I think you’re misunderstanding. OP says “We get calls almost every night, but usually those are in the evening hours; true middle-of-the-night emergencies are more rare”, which links the “more rare” to the “almost every night”, not to the weekends (and not to this specific employee, either; OP is just explaining what the workload and frequency look like in general).

        2. fhqwhgads*

          I took it to mean on-call people gets frequent calls between, say 6p-11p, or 5a-7a (all of which are not “normal” business hours) but it’s less common (ie more rare) to get midnight-4a calls. I’m making up the exact hours here just to illustration purposes.
          The missed calls were all 3am-ish, so we know it’s likely “true middle of the night” encompasses something like 2a-4a, and could be wider depending on interpretation.
          The gist is really that this person is very responsible in non-business hours that are common for humans to be awake.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      I’m assuming the missing three happened over a long period of time. Like there are ten people covering and these calls happen once a month or so, she gets one a year and has missed three over the last three years.

    4. allx*

      This raises an interesting point: co-worker has missed a total of three calls (over an unknown period of time), but how many dead-of-night calls did co-worker actually wake up for? In other words, it does not seem that OP is saying co-worker NEVER wakes up for late night calls, but that co-worker has now missed three such calls. Looking at the circumstances of when co-worker is able to field late calls might give some clues about how to handle it if in fact co-worker has managed to answer some of the late calls. And if co-worker can wake up for some late-night calls, then there is a solution and it lies with co-worker to figure it out (maybe with the help of management).

  6. SleeplessKJ*

    Re #1 – I’m hearing impaired and don’t always hear a normal alarm. There are several assistive devices available that would be helpful for your sound sleeper. The two that work the best for me are a wrist device that vibrates when my phone rings (and you can set it to a pretty strong vibration) and a “shaker” device that goes under your pillow and vibrates/shakes you awake. Neither are very expensive and would probably solve the issue.

    1. TheBunny*

      Intetrsting and both seem like viable options.

      Also…first thing I thought when I read about the shaker is that here in CA I would think we were having an earthquake with the under pillow device.

          1. Orv*

            I’ve slept through a few. When I lived in the Midwest I routinely slept through thunderstorms, although now I’m no longer used to them and they’re more likely to wake me up.

        2. Hannah Lee*

          When I was a kid, a drunk drive missed a turn going by our house, drove through our hedges, into a 30′ tall tree, which was knocked down into the house while the car kept going up onto the front porch and into our living room. There was a full on emergency response: police, fire, ambulance all arriving with sirens, followed up a tow truck showing up and dragging the car out of the house.

          I slept through the entire thing, screeching tires, crashing tree, car plowing into the house, sirens, tow chains, etc. Even though my bed was upstairs directly above where the car crashed in. Human bodies are weird, and sleeping human bodies can be especially weird.

          (amazingly, no one was hurt, not person or pet)

    2. also deaf*

      I have never used a hearing alarm, as I am completely and utterly deaf without my hearing aids. Not a single peep – can’t even hear the smoke alarms right outside my door, that sort of thing.

      I used to buy a shake-awake clock that tucks under the mattress/pillow (supposed to be mattress, but I find it more effective under the pillow), but once it died, I just set my old phone to be my alarm clock. You can actually set them to vibrate instead of make noise for alarms, and again, under my pillow, it’s very effective. I’ve only ever missed it twice in five years, and I am a very deep sleeper.

      1. also deaf*

        I meant to say, because I use my phone already, and I know for a fact it vibrates for calls, I would probably wake up from that – I haven’t tested it, but it’s something to try.

    3. zuzu*

      I lived in an accessible apartment pretty close to Gallaudet University (I didn’t ask for an accessible apartment; it just so happened that several per floor were required to be in new construction). One of the accessible features was the doorbell for the deaf and hard of hearing.

      Flickering lights and the most terrifying bell I’ve ever heard. I had to ask my guests not to ring it, but some of them forgot and gave me a heart attack. I yelped every time.

      1. MBK*

        I used to live in an accessible apartment that had one of those doorbells. Truly the worst inorganic sound I’ve ever heard.

      2. Ashley*

        I do wonder if a phone ringing set to turn on lights would help if the vibrating devices suggested don’t help.

    4. Ron McDon*

      My son sleeps like the dead, and always had trouble waking up in the morning for school.

      Slate (I think?) reviewed gadgets on occasion, and they recommended the Sonic Boom Loud Alarm Clock with bed shaker. It has an adjustable tone and volume for the alarm – it can go as loud as an ambulance siren, I believe!

      If that doesn’t work, there’s an attachment that goes under your mattress/pillow that vibrates.

      It’s the only alarm that ever woke my son up (who is now 19 and still a really deep sleeper!).

      Hopefully this recommendation might help someone else with this issue, although I know it’s no help to OP! But there must be something similar for phone calls.

      1. LizardOfOz*

        If it lead to me having to pick up significantly more nights on on-call than I signed up for, especially considering the frequency with which the LW mentions actual calls happen, I would at least start looking for a new job. The person in question might be unable to wake up, but that doesn’t make their sleep and mental health inherently more valuable than mine.

        The LW might be facing a situation where the options are “keep this person” and “keep a substantial part of the rest of the team.”

        It’s not certain, of course, but the possibility is there. The LW (or their bosses) will have to decide which risk is acceptable.

      2. Myrin*

        For some reason, the fact that this thing is called “Sonic Boom Loud Alarm Clock” is absolutely hilarious to me. Like boy howdy, that sure is a sonic boom!

        1. The Rural Juror*

          My neighbor would NOT appreciate that!!! We share a bed wall and every once in a while, if I’m already awake, I can their alarm go off. But I have to still be laying in bed (our apartments really only have one option for the bed wall). If either of us got a sonic boom alarm clock… there might be some problems haha

          1. Ron McDon*

            Myrin, it is loud!!!

            The Rural Juror, on occasion the alarm would wake me up (there are two closed doors and a landing between my bedroom and my son’s), so your neighbour would definitely be able to hear it through the wall!

    5. Momma Bear*

      If the calls come at random times, would a shaker work? Can it be connected to your phone to perform the same function?

  7. MG*

    REM sleep is deep sleep. Not everyone can wake from it easily. It’s where learning, memory consolitation and ‘cleaning’ happens. It’s extremely damaging to all, catastrophic to others, to interrupt it. Circadian cycles have a large genetic component (night owl/morning lark). Treat it as a medical issue and take her off ER calls. You can’t punish for something that is not in her control – it’s not a ‘fairness’ question. Beware the bias that exists everywhere if you are not a morning lark.

      1. Cookie Monster*

        It’s right there in their paragraph: “Treat it as a medical issue and take her off ER calls.”

    2. BuildMeUp*

      Look, I’m a night owl too, but even if this were a legit medical issue, it’s not one that would be accommodated. It’s a necessary part of the job.

      I don’t think anyone is getting punished, just asked to try other methods of waking up.

      1. BuildMeUp*

        To clarify, it should not be accommodated by taking her off of the ER calls. Trying different types of alarms at the company’s expense and things of that nature might be doable. Forcing her coworkers to take on extra shifts is not the answer.

      2. MG*

        A new job may be the answer here then. The ‘just’ assumes an easy fix. I assure you, that some can sleep through a Sonic Boom alarm clock (damaging to normal hearing, by the way) for hours. I unfortunately have a lot of personal experience with friends and family with this issue. Delayed phase sleep is a thing, and a normal thing for adolescence through mid twenties – but those who experience the more extreme but normal manifestations are accused of all sort of poor behavior. If this employee is in their early twenties, this may get better.

      3. Dust Bunny*

        Same. My mom and I are both night owls. I could do this. She could not. If she were thinking of taking a job that involved overnight on-calls I would try to talk her out of it because a) she would definitely sleep through any alarms and b) she would be in a foul mood when she did wake up.

        When I worked for a veterinarian we had an interviewee who was afraid of cats and wanted us to assure her she wouldn’t have to handle any cats that weren’t little kittens. That is not how veterinary medicine works.

        1. Jay (no, the other one)*

          I had a job doing full-time home visits. The woman I replaced quit after a week (plus the month of onboarding) because she was allergic to dust, cats, dogs, and mold, and apparently didn’t realize that other people’s houses often have one or more of those.

        2. Melody Powers*

          Wow that must be more common than I thought. When I worked at an animal hospital we had someone apply who was afraid of dogs. We all spent several days wondering how she was expecting that to work.

          I guess whether or not trouble waking up makes the job in #1 a similarly bad fit comes down to if it’s reasonable to shift that responsibility onto other people while allowing the employee to continue the rest of the work that she’s apparently doing very well.

      4. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        I think your implication that it’s not a legit medical issue is unwarranted. She’s legit not waking up from the calls.

        1. Observer*

          No, it is almost certainly a legit medical issue. But that doesn’t mean that it should – or even *can* – be accommodated by taking her off the rotation.

          1. TigressInTech*

            I think a key part of this boils down to whether the on-call shifts are considered an essential function of the job. If so, the employer is not required to make any accommodations (including reallocating work) and may let the employee go. If it is not an essential function and it is a legitimate disability covered by the ADA, depending on the number of employees and number of late-night calls, taking her off the rotation may well be considered a “reasonable accommodation” under the ADA so long as it does not cause undue hardship to the organization (determined on a case-by-case basis).

            In this case, there isn’t enough information in the letter to judge whether this can be accommodated under the ADA.

    3. Allonge*

      People don’t have late-night child-related emergencies for fun or to bother night owls.

      It’s not about the (existing) prejudice against people whose sleep rythms are different from the early bird, it’s about doing this particular job.

    4. Wings*

      REM sleep is not deep sleep; quite the contrary, deep sleep is always non-REM sleep. My hazard guess is that this coworker is the youngest in the team as young adults typically attain more stage three deep sleep at night time than older adults. So, time alone might solve this when the person ages and is unable to sleep equally deep. Typically, one episode of deepest sleep (used to be called stage four), where a person may be quite impossible to wake up, is quite short so one simple option (combined with the loudest alarm there is) might be just to call the person again some 10-15 minutes later if that’s feasible. I guess it would still be better than wait for the other on-call person from further away?

      1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        Good point. When I was younger, I slept through multiple fire alarms and an earthquake that woke everyone else up.

        1. Aggretsuko*

          I had a college roommate who got mad at me for not waking her up during a fire alarm. I said if she wasn’t woken up by that, she wasn’t going to be able to hear me trying to scream over the fire alarm.

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      It’s not a reasonable accommodation to remove an essential job task from her, especially when this means that coworkers have to add this task to their own work.

    6. Tangerine steak*

      This isn’ta reasonable accommodation. The job IS overnight emergency calls. Hiring a replacement social worker to do 1 overnight on call + weekend on calls is completely infeasible (also likely impossible to find the staff). Although if they had someone who took the job for all staff that would be more feasible.

      Nobody likes being woken through the night. But if that’s the job, that’s the job.

      I previously worked a role where I was on call for a week at a time overnight. I hated the alarms going off when I was sleeping deeply, but if I couldn’t wake (and respond, do the paperwork etc) in the early hours then I was useless for that job.

      The employee needs to find a way to wake to work calls. That’s her job.

      Things I use in my current on call role
      * specific long loud annoying tones for text messages from people who will contact me for jobs (text is our default).
      * specific loud annoying tones for phone calls
      * watch that vibrates with calls

      Phones also often have the option to flash a light when a call comes in, which might be helpful.

      I’ve seen light alarm clocks, might be possible to find one that links to a phone.

      Plus all the hearing impaired devices already mentioned by others.

      1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        “But if that’s the job, that’s the job.”

        This will get you in a losing lawsuit very very quickly. If we store the paper in a cabinet above the printer and someone can’t reach it from their wheelchair and they need to reach it, well, that’s the job, guess they can’t do it. They have to investigate other possibilities.

        An accommodation is not unreasonable just because it inconveniences other employees. Reasonable does not mean the other employees get to take a vote on whether they like it or not.

        1. Fluffy Fish*

          That’s an apples and oranges comparison. Storing computer paper in a high cabinet isn’t a requirement nor would reaching the paper be an essential part of most jobs.

          In this case an essential component of the job is taking emergency calls at night. It would not be a reasonable accommodation to allow the employee to simply not take emergency night calls. It’s that essential component that’s key and what Tangerine Steak means but “it’s the job”.

          An employer will not get sued because they required someone to do an essential part of their job.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          You’re ignoring the part of the law about core-job requirements and undue hardship.
          Your example is a straw man. This is more like “if the job is driving a delivery vehicle and you have a medical condition that disallows you having a drivers license” than it is having wheelchair accessible cabinets.

    7. bamcheeks*

      Fully agree with this: how do you suppose we explain it to children who WILL keep needing things in the middle of the night?

    8. I should really pick a name*

      People who cannot wake from deep sleep are not suited to jobs that require them to wake up in the middle of the night. The LW already explained why taking this person off of the on-call schedule is not practical.

      A “morning lark” doesn’t enjoy being woken up at 2AM either.

    9. londonedit*

      This isn’t about ‘bias’ against night owls, though, it’s about whether or not this person is capable of performing the functions of her job, one of which is to be on call and to respond immediately to calls that come in overnight. If you take a job that requires you to do that, or to work night shifts, or to work 2pm-10pm, or whatever, then you need to be able to fulfil the requirements of that job. In the example of someone working 2pm-10pm, they can’t routinely fall asleep on shift at 9pm and then say ‘sorry, I’m a lark, I have to go to bed early or I can’t function’. And it’s the same here.

    10. metadata minion*

      My mental health goes downhill fast if I don’t get a solid 7-8 hours of sleep a night, but this means that I can’t take a job where I’m going to be woken up in the small hours of the morning. And I *am* a morning person — this doesn’t mean I want to be woken up at 3am. If the LW means 5-6am by “early morning” instead, it seems more reasonable that there’s an early bird who can take those shifts, but it sounds like it’s in the 1-3am range, which is an hour at which the vast majority of people don’t want to be awake. This is not a circadian rhythm issue.

    11. BlueCactus*

      All these things are true…but emergencies still happen in the middle of the night and someone has to deal with them. If you’re in a job where this is part of the essential tasks, then you need to find a way to do it or you need to find a new job, but it sounds like they haven’t even workshopped options to help the employee wake up. It may just be that she needs tactile sensation in the form of a wrist buzzer along with a sound to wake up. It’s definitely worthwhile trying to explore options before throwing up their hands in defeat, imo.

    12. Productivity Pigeon*

      And yet parents/child caretakers all over the world survive it nightly.

      Don’t over exaggerate things.

    13. blah*

      It’s always amusing someone can read a letter, completely misunderstand what’s being asked, and give advice that is not useful for the situation.

    14. Productivity Pigeon*

      What you’re basically saying is that it’s worse to wake up someone from REM sleep than it is to leave a child in an urgent, dangerous situation.

      I don’t think that’s what you really mean but think it through.

    15. biobotb*

      If it’s really so damaging to be woken up from certain sleep phases that this employee shouldn’t have to perform this essential function of her job, why shouldn’t this accommodation apply to every employee? Sleep is essential for everyone.

    16. Lab Snep*

      When I did call at a job, and shortly before I was written off call for medical reasons, if the call hit me in deep sleep I would wake up, but have to fight sleep paralysis to answer the phone. Sometimes i would wake up in a panic and not know where i was. Sometimes I’d have to call back.

      And I would have double vision, even with my glasses, for 10 minutes after that so I ended up staying in a not haunted, but definitely kind of haunted, part of the hospital where we were allowed to sleep if we had to (we’d had a dedicated sleep room and lost it).

      The only ringtone I could wake up to was this annoying and twee acoustic guitar and whenever I hear that in public I resust the urge to slap the phone out of people’s hands in a panic.

  8. Nodramalama*

    I’m a bit surprised that for LW1 the advice jumps straight to it must be a medical accommodation and her job should pay for her to wake up! I don’t see any indication of a medical issue because I don’t think “deep sleeper” is a disability.

    If someone was missing their rostered on shift during the day or a nightshift because they sleep through their alarm I don’t think many people would jump to, work should pay for special alarms. If she’s someone who sleeps deeply maybe a job being on call just isn’t the right job

    1. sarah*

      “it should be treated as something more like a medical issue than a disciplinary one” doesn’t say it’s a medical issue, it says it should be viewed more in that framework than as someone slacking off.

      1. Nodramalama*

        If they’re expecting work to pay for all these solves then it is saying it’s a medical issue.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          No, it means “we understand this part of an already very difficult job poses a significant burden and we’re going to work together to solve this.” It’s not about the employer being expected or obligated to pay; it’s about them offering to because a “fix this on your own or you’re out after X strikes” approach is crappy in many circumstances, but it’s especially impractical and counterproductive in the field the LW is in.

      1. MG*

        I’m sorry, but I find that very inaccurate in this OP situation. This reply sounds like what a principal would say to a kid who cannot wake up to attend school because school starts too early for a teen. And like what the judge would say to a parent who was dragged into court for ‘truancy’ of their child, when the school starts so early it damages their heal – or worse yet, have their kid ‘phone’ the judge when they wake up for school as punishment. People..just…don’t…get it. The inability to wake to an imposed schedule is not a behavioral issue – it’s a biological one. Completely out of one’s control. Allyson is spot on with her recommendation.

    3. Tangerine steak*

      I don’t get the work pays either. Frankly other staff have likely personally invested in devices they need to be able to do their job. I’d be annoyed if work was buying my colleague a smart watch because they sleep through their job – but I’ve purchased my own so I DON’T sleep through my job. Things like that can quickly build resentment of the company.

      Treating it as a problem to solve together like you would a medical issue I’m fine with. That should be the approach for any disciplinary issue that isn’t instant for worthy.

      1. Earlk*

        If someone gets a better chair because they have a previous back injury would you be upset by that too?

          1. Vincent Adultman’s assistant*

            Also it’s child welfare social work. In what universe is there a municipal budget that would support that office spending money to solve this for the employee instead of the employee solving it their own darn self??? Maybe in the “govt pays for everything all the time” utopia of “Europe the monolith country” but not in any US social work office I can think of.

            1. Learn ALL the things*

              This is a very good point. Anyone who serves as a first responder to child welfare emergencies will likely work for an underfunded government agency with strong and unbreakable rules about buying things for staff, or an underfunded nonprofit that can barely afford to keep the copier running, let alone new alarm clocks for employees.

              This bit is almost certainly a moot point, because the money to do it just won’t be there.

              1. pocket sized polly*

                And I imagine that, if the LW’s employer were to foot the bill for a solution (whether all or partially), I could see coworkers thinking, “we can’t even shake enough money out of the 40-year old, stained couch in the breakroom to hire another employee, let alone replace printer toner. And yet [Boss] just picked up the tab for [some not-cheap tech or medical solution] to LW’s Coworker’s reason for why they can’t wake up when they’re on-call????? That’s…that’s interesting.”

          2. TechWorker*

            If you asked and were told ‘no’ that’s one thing, if you just assumed you couldn’t expense it and never asked, the reasonable response is surely frustration and ‘huh, well at least I know for next time’, not ‘annoyance at your colleague’

            1. Seriously*

              Who said annoyance at the colleague? I’d be annoyed at the company for requiring we all have a suitably ergonomic chair as pre-requisite for doing the job, making it clear that I as the employee am responsible for this, while a coworker can miss shifts because they don’t have one until one is bought for them. That’s the only way a chair makes sense as an analogy for this context.

    4. Also-ADHD*

      Frankly to keep an otherwise good employee in the field and conditions LW describes (overnight social work helping children in need), paying for a few devices is much more likely to be a choice that benefits the org by retaining someone, medical condition or not (and it could be and biologically the wake up requirements sound exhausting for this on call job etc). Now, the organization LW works for might not actually be able to pay easily (depending on their funding source, if they’re governmental, etc) but if they can, the retention savings are more valuable to keep the good employee and fix the problem.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Exactly. It’s not about fairness, it’s just the smart choice. They could fire this employee for missing the calls, but they want to keep her because she’s good at her job otherwise. Ergo, they are looking for ways to help her stop missing the calls.

        1. Lab Snep*

          Also, if anyone here is in Canada, fairness or lack thereof is not considered to be undue hardship for accommodations.

          1. Also-ADHD*

            It isn’t in the US either. Though modifying the on call schedule probably wouldn’t be imposed as an accommodation here due to it being a core job function, but nothing to stop the discussion of assistive equipment (though others are right that the disability need isn’t documented or isn’t there—I am not guessing at causes for wake up).

          2. Statler von Waldorf*

            Like so many things relating to labor laws in Canada, that depends on the province. In Ontario, you are right. In Alberta, you are not.

            1. Lab Snep*

              True that. I forget which of the acts are provincial and which are federal when I’ve been having to go back and forth for both.

      2. ferrina*

        And it sounds like this is just a small part of the job. The LW describes it middle-of-the-night calls as rare. This is a high-stress job, and an employee who is “great at their job.” I agree with LW- it’s silly to lose a strong employee for something that is a small percentage of their job. Honestly, my first thought was a customized schedule- see if we can take them off the roster for the middle-of-night shift, but have them cover evenings instead. If evening calls are more much more common than middle-of-the-night, this could prove a good deal for everyone.

    5. el l*

      Accommodation is not the right flavor here. What it should be is something more like an air incident investigation.

      Namely: “We’re not here to assign blame, and you’re not in trouble. You’re an otherwise good employee, and we don’t have reason to believe you’re being otherwise negligent. What we do need to do is to ask you exactly what happened each time in these 3 cases, compare these to cases where you were able to get up and do your job, and figure out what’s different. Then let’s get to what solutions there are.”

    6. Hyaline*

      It doesn’t have to be a documented medical issue for the problem-solving strategies you would use if it was to be effective. I think that’s more what’s being advised here–approach this as you would accommodating a medical issue because the person’s body is not going to change to your liking. Alison doesn’t say it’s *protected* like disability would be–just that the problem solving approach of “reasonable accommodation and support” could work here since they want to keep this employee. (Accommodation here meaning sourcing and providing support to do the job, not being excused from doing the job.)

    7. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

      This entire comment thread seems to reflect one of the many reasons that it’s difficult to hire and retain folks in social work and healthcare fields. Aside from the low pay, the lack of resources to support staff always seem to lend to staff turning on each other and blaming each other for the working conditions and their own lack of support.

      It’s very hard to find people to do jobs like the one described, and to do them well is even more difficult. Immediately jumping to “not the right fit” is an outsized response and likely not one they have the luxury of pursuing anyway.

    8. Observer*

      I don’t see any indication of a medical issue because I don’t think “deep sleeper” is a disability.

      Who cares if it’s a *formal* medical issue? This is clearly someone who is otherwise conscientious and a good worker. She clearly has a physical issue that’s keeping her from waking to these calls. Given how hard it is to find good staff for these positions, and how poorly they pay, it simply makes sense that the employer should bear the cost of mitigating the problem.

  9. Raida*

    2. Coworker is rude to my intern
    I’d go to her manager and ask them “Do you want me to address this with her directly, or would you prefer to handle it?” Then it’s either A) coming from her supervisor or B) it’s clear the supervisor knows and supports me talking to her directly.

    This just gets ahead of the possibility of her feeling “you aren’t my manager”.

    1. Nice cup of tea*

      Yes, I was extremely surprised that there was no mention of speaking to Jane’s manager.

      Jane’s manager should normally be the one to speak to Jane surely?

      1. Allonge*

        Eh, OP as the intern’s supervisor has standing to address things that relate to the intern’s management. Jane’s boss may even reasonably ask if OP talked to Jane about this.

        Which is not to say that I would not escalate to Jane’s manager if she would continue to do this after a talk but for me that’s a second step.

        And to be honest, even then, I would consider just responding in the chat – Jane, we discussed this, please don’t criticise [intern]’s work here, it’s not appropriate. If I were really pissed off (which I may be, this is not cool).

        1. ferrina*

          Yeah, OP definitely has standing to address this directly. That’s where I would start.
          This is a relatively common issue, and in my experience, the Jane in the situation is a frequent offender. Sometimes Jane’s manager is actively working on it, but sometimes Jane’s manager is too busy to address it or is simply not addressing it. In those cases, addressing it directly can put Jane on notice that even though her manager isn’t doing anything, that doesn’t mean that other managers will let it go. I’ve also found that most of the Janes I’ve dealt with are selective in their targets, and won’t pick on someone that they know they will get backlash for (obviously not all Janes, mileage will vary, and sincere apology to anyone named Jane)

        2. musical chairs*

          I’ve been the manager of a Jane in a situation like this before. If this is anything like my experience, it could be part of a pattern of lack of personal accountability and unwillingness to collaborate with staff that’s performing better in their than role than she is in hers.

          I didn’t have concrete evidence of how frustrated other people were working with her until a few other people on my team told me about stuff like this, and then I started to be able to piece together other inklings that I had about her ability to work with other folks/ incorporate routine feedback into her work. It was a puzzle piece that I needed. A lot of her professionalism issues were small, passive aggressive things, that, on their own, all seemed silly to report. But we looked at the whole picture from a step back, it added up to someone who was not a good culture fit for our very kind, polite and collaborative environment. That, paired with her in effectiveness in the technical aspects of the role.

          It’s September; the internships likely over. No harm in debriefing her boss and if Janes behavior is not part of the pattern, then there’s not really anything to do from there. It was the mention of Jane having her own issues with effectiveness that raise a flag for me. I would want to know.

          1. Allonge*

            Look, I am not saying don’t talk to the manager ever, but this is the kind of conflict that people can be expected to handle among themselves. If there is a repeat, go to the manager for sure. I was just responding to someone who was wondering why that is not the first step.

            1. musical chairs*

              I don’t disagree! I’m just offering a different perspective on why it might be important to keep the manager in the loop.

        3. Festively Dressed Earl*

          The problem with responding in the chat is that OP would be engaging in exactly the behavior they want Jane to stop: publicly calling out someone else’s mistakes. (But I do agree that it’s tempting in a “see how crappy this feels?” way.)

      2. Turquoisecow*

        I don’t know that Jane’s manager needs to DO anything but I think OP should loop them in, because if Jane goes back to their manager with complaints about OP or their intern the manager should know what’s going on. It’s possible that Jane’s manager then says “let me handle it,” – maybe they’ve had similar issues with Jane before, maybe they just want to know in case this becomes a pattern – or maybe OP takes the advice and talks to Jane herself, but I think the manager should be aware.

    2. Festively Dressed Earl*

      That’s not a bad idea. My concerns are that Jane’s manager probably already knows about it since Jane is posting on a Teams chat that both Jane’s team and OP’s team can see, and if Jane is complaining about intern’s mistakes on the Teams chat, you can bet she’s been vigorously complaining to her own manager as well. If Jane is this bad at taking feedback and has been making this many errors, I bet Jane’s manager is using the outbursts as further ammo to let Jane go. She can’t say “I didn’t make this mistake!” if she’s mouthing off in chat telling on herself.

      It’s only human to want to defend yourself when told you’re doing something wrong, especially if you think there’s a double standard or that the issue is negligible. However, the fact that OP has talked to her own intern about the common mistakes demonstrates that Jane isn’t being singled out and that these errors aren’t just a minor hangup specific to Jane’s manager. At this rate, an intern who’s capable of taking feedback and learning from it might be a far better fit for Jane’s job after graduation.

  10. WakeyWakey*

    The waking up may not be solvable – it wouldn’t be for me – so the question becomes is this enough to say this person should be let go. Would it be more problematic to replace them, likely putting greater amounts of work and more night shifts on coworkers for some time, or to give them a dispensation from overnight shifts and putting less strain the rest of the time but more night shifts on people ongoing.

    I can’t answer that. You can try other things, but it may come down to this even with everyone trying their best to solve the problem.

    One other area to explore: was the employee waking up with no problem until recently? If do, it may be worth trying to explore what’s changed that may have caused the change.

  11. Gatomon*

    re: #1 – people sleep through calls. I’ve half woken up and not processed that -sound- was a call, then realized it had been a call… when my alarm went off hours later. :( My perception was that it had been seconds between the call and alarm. I don’t think I have a medical condition, but it’s true that once I’m asleep, I’m ASLEEP. I’ve always been that way.

    …But this is a thing that happens in like every department with on call at my job, to pretty much everyone at some point. I wouldn’t fire an otherwise good employee over it, unless you had proof they were doing it deliberately. Sometimes you end up having to get another person involved because the on call just didn’t wake up, or they’re already involved in another call.

    You can turn the volume to maximum level, rotate the ring tone every shift so it’s new, etc., but I’d make sure the person is getting multiple calls at least. As in call once, leave a voicemail, call again 5 minutes later. If no response after 10-15 minutes from the original call (or whatever makes sense, 15 minutes is our policy), move on to the next person. For me, a second call is all I need 99% of the time.

    And, instead of calling an on call from another office, does it make more sense to call someone else from the local office first? I understand that someone *not* on call is not going to be happy about that call, but if the responder is still local that would presumably reduce the delay. You could formalize this with a designated backup person, or set the next level of escalation as the local manager, etc. Whatever makes sense, as long as this employee doesn’t have the same backup every time. Just in case. :)

    1. JSPA*

      #1, one possible solution is in your own letter. Calls are very rare between (say) 1 and 5 am, right?

      So if the deep sleeping coworker picked up an extra night on-call shift EXCEPT for those hours (I’m imaging 9 pm to 1 am, and 5 to 8?) would some people be willing to take an extra 1 to 5 a.m. on-call (knowing there may be no calls at all)?

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        That still adds extra disrupted nights to coworkers and stops them making evening plans. The 1-5 hours would be the worst for everyone.

        1. KateM*

          “Everyone” this or that is a good way to get your claims dismissed. I for one would be quite satisfied if I had to have on-call times and these were only 1-5 – for me it would mean I would need to disrupt neither my evening nor my morning plans.

          (You are second person to say that this would ruin evening plans – is something wrong with me that my evenings are over by 1 am?)

          1. Rebecca*

            I think if you are on call between 1 and 5 you can’t drink during your evening before that, and for many people, that might indeed put a damper on some plans.

            1. Green great dragon*

              Some might, but others might not. I think it’s worth a try. I like a glass or two of wine with a meal, but I could have a glass at 8pm and be perfectly sober by 1am.

            2. Earlk*

              If it’s currently once every 10 nights taking 1 person out of rotation could either mean once every 9 nights or one person taking on the extra 1-5 shifts once every 5 nights.

              Even as a Brit who loves a midweek drink I think most people could cope having my drinking “restricted” like that.

              1. KateM*

                Or it could be straight exchange – I’d be on call during her nights 1-5 and she’d be on call during my nights outside 1-5. For this you’d need to find only one person who’d like to have their evenings free and ability to drive kids to school.

                1. Vincent Adultman’s assistant*

                  You’re all treating this as predictable night shift stuff though a la nursing. It’s not. This is doing your normal day shift job then every so often, you’re also on call for whatever could pop up throughout the night. And like OP said, the majority of those calls are maybe in the evening but they do sometimes happen at 1 AM, 3 AM, etc. But there’s no way of predicting that. Because it’s child welfare social work and those kinds of emergencies don’t tend to nearly schedule themselves during normal business hours for some weird reason.

                2. Green great dragon*

                  VA’s assistant – I don’t think it makes any difference to the suggestion whether they’re shifts or on call. The impact on other arrangements is the same. Sleeping co-worker might end up doing more actual work if calls happen more often in the early part of the shift, but that could be something she’s OK with given the circumstances.

                3. KateM*

                  @Vincent Adultman’s assistant, I indeed assumed that it is predictable when one needs to be on call – is that not the case? “One weeknight out of 10, and a full weekend every eight weeks” seems pretty predictable to me.

                4. Myrin*

                  @VAA, I agree that several commenters seem to be missing that but I’m not seeing how that makes a difference regarding swapping or splitting shifts (or most other advice, really).

                  The job is unpredictable in the sense of not knowing when a call will come in, but that’s the case with most jobs – to use your “nursing” example, nurses in ER don’t know beforehand that there’ll be an accident with eight people being brought in all at once, either, the same way surgical nurses can’t predict when a patient during a routine operation suddenly goes into cardiac arrest.
                  They know beforehand that they’re at work, sure, but so do the people in OP’s letter who are on call.

                5. Allonge*

                  How is ‘you may be called to work during this night’ not different from ‘you are off this night’?

                  It’s not a shift. If you have a shift, you go to work and there may be more or less work.

                  If you are on call, you are limited in what you can do (including the small detail of sleep) but it may be a completely quite night. Or it may not be. You are not working unless you are called specifically to work. Imagine the scenario of your sister working such a job and you being responsible for backup childcare. Would you prefer to have three such nights a week or one?

                6. KateM*

                  @Allonge, actually the question should be “would you prefer to 1) be once in two weeks responsible for making your niblings dinner, taking care that they have done their homework, putting them to bed, staying the night, and driving them to school in the morning, or 2) staying the night once a week at your sister’s place with no other duty”.

                7. Allonge*

                  @KateM – if OP can find someone who looks at it like that, sure.

                  But I don’t see how that works out for me: it’s NIGHT. It’s not afternoon or evening. It’s also on call, not work – I don’t think it means you cannot do anything else, you “just” need to be able to drop whatever it is.

                  I don’t have a full schedule of things to do at night, I will have some evening plans for which I need to work around this one night I am on call. I don’t have evening plans that require my full and unlimited availability that often.

                  Otherwise I spend the night, you know, sleeping. If I am on call at any part of the night, that sleep will also be impacted a bit even on no-call nights – I need to be ready to roll.

                  I think we look at it differently because you are taking this as “all evenings / until midnight are free, yay!” and somehow the “but you may get calls three nights not one” is not a deterrent to you. Which is totally ok! And again if OP finds people like this, more power to them.

                8. KateM*

                  @Allonge, where do you keep getting this “three nights not one”? Clearly if two people would share two shifts, it would be “two nights not one”.

                9. Allonge*

                  It’s just an example, it could be two instead of one or three instead of two (if it’s shared by multiple people).

                  The point from where I am standing is that it’s more nights with a chance of needing to get up and go to work.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      As a deep sleeper, who’s slept through a bunch of noisy attempts to wake me during middle of the night emergencies (including a fire!), it’s absolutely solvable, but it will take effort and practice. I would ask this employee how many things they’ve tried and how often the trials have worked. It may be that the co-worker doesn’t have a second person who will help try to wake them in the middle of the night so OP might consider offering to do a few dry runs. It might seem rude to wake them up when it’s not an emergency, but this is a performance issue now and requires practice. You have to keep in mind that this person probably wasn’t been aware that they are a deep sleeper in emergencies before there was an emergency. At the first call they probably thought “Oh a slightly louder ringtone” and on the second and third they probably thought their adjustments would DEFINITELY do the trick, but it takes more than three adjustment attempts to solve something like this. Some people will respond more to flashing lights, some to increasing lights, some people to shake alarms; you have to try everything.

      1. Tangerine steak*

        Great idea to practice – maybe the actual on call person could call them whenever they get a call? Maybe they need to be assigned double shifts for a while with someone else as the shadow when they don’t respond while they’re in training?

        For my the extra work should be on the employee who is underperforming not in the colleagues who are doing their job.

      2. amoeba*

        Yup, was coming here to say this – don’t just buy a new gadget and wait for the next emergency to see if it works, actually try it! Maybe you can offer them to actually have somebody else call them at that time of night (because if you know you’re getting a call that night, it might be different) – somebody else on shift, maybe? Like, after a call, not during the emergency, obviously? Otherwise I do believe there are services you can book that give wake-up calls, maybe have somebody else schedule them for her so she doesn’t know when it’s coming?
        (Of course, you could also have her figure out that part by herself, but if you’d really like to help her solve it, it feels like a kindness to work together on this!)

    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      If they really can’t perform an essential job duty, then they are not suited to the job and should transfer to another. It is not acceptable to push onerous duties onto coworkers

      There are tech solutions on the market e.g. when I was anxious about waking for early international flights, I bought an alarm clock for the deaf which including a plate under the pillow which shook me and the bed more vigorously than I’d expect any person to shake me. It was awesome.

    4. rudster*

      I think it’s wild that if someone were to routinely show up to their regular job on a couple hours’ sleep (or no sleep) and it was affecting their performance, it would surely be considered unacceptable and you’d probably tell them to go home and get some rest. Yet here the people on-call are likewise expected to work (also drive to the work location?) on anywhere from little to no sleep, and if they can’t they just need to figure it out quit/be fired. Seems like a strange double-standard.

      1. Ava*

        I don’t really see that as being specific to the concerns in this letter tho? And it might not even be the case— when I worked on call we were given significantly more leeway the next day if we had a long call during the night, including coming in a few hours late or taking a nap during the day. But that wouldn’t fix the problem of not waking up for calls

      2. ecnaseener*

        Okay, but this is not helpful to the letter-writer. Of course it sucks to have these overnight needs, but there’s no magic solution. Children’s welfare is at stake, they have occasional overnight emergencies, and the org presumably doesn’t have the money to staff a separate roster of night-shift employees who can be counted on to be well-rested in the middle of the night.

      3. sparkle emoji*

        This is a role that has to deal with emergencies, which cannot be predicted. There’s no indication that someone who had to deal with a late night emergency wouldn’t get some flexibility the next day. We’re meant to treat the LWs with good faith, which means accepting they know the needs of their industry and whether or not this type of on call arrangement is needed.

  12. Beveled Edge*

    LW1, please reconsider your instinct to revolt. AAM’s advice is well-meaning but the human body wasn’t meant to be awake at that hour and it simply may not be possible for her to wake up without someone physically dragging her from her bed. I honestly doubt there’s a technological solution here. Is your team willing to push your supervisor to fire your coworker if her body simply cannot accomplish this unnatural part of your job?

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      It is an essential job function that most people would dislike and coworkers would resent having to do additional nights, especially for the same pay as someone doing none

      1. Meep*

        I mean, I would rather be woken up early morning than before midnight. Certainly someone else feels the opposite as me?

    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      It’s unnatural for everyone else too and pushing her night calls onto coworkers would make their life & job more difficult. That’s not a reasonable option.

      An accommodation could be buying her a tech solution, e.g. an alarm clock for the deaf which includes a plate under the pillow that vibrates as much as being shaken awake (I had a device like this years ago when I had to wake for early international flights and was anxious about missing them)

      1. Also-ADHD*

        I do also wonder how zealous the calls are (who is dispatching calls and how many times they call). If someone is in an office calling social workers when needed, you might just look at, “Could they try more times?” Etc and how that pairs with the employees wake up method. (Though if there call every night, and overnight only occasionally, I’m surprised the schedule isn’t just covered with someone working evenings? And the calls may come from outside org where you can’t tell them “Rosie is a deep sleeper so on overnights, ring her double before calling anyone else.”)

        1. Nightengale*

          It’s probably hospital workers- like ER social workers – and police, no? Although they then probably do call a central dispatch person. When I’ve called child welfare there is always an emergency number although I’ve never personally had to use it

          1. Also-ADHD*

            It’s case workers or social workers in child welfare (not sure the structure in their case) and sometimes dispatch for that is handled by other government departments and sometimes internally, as far as I’ve seen.

    3. londonedit*

      If she physically can’t wake up, and she can’t find a way of making herself reliably wake up, then she shouldn’t have a job where she’s expected to be on call overnight. That’s no slight on her – some people aren’t suited to shift work or to night shifts – but if she can’t reliably perform the function of being on call overnight then she shouldn’t be doing this job. It’s not fair on her colleagues or on the people who need her to show up if there’s an incident in the middle of the night.

      1. Beveled Edge*

        There’s been plenty of discussion elsewhere in these comments about how hard it is to hire people in this field. I know it’s not fair to her colleagues but it’s the situation they’re in. If she can’t physically do it, and it would be a disservice to their clients to just leave the position unfilled for a year or two while they try to find someone else, what’s your solution then?

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      What’s your desired outcome here? Either another coworker has to take their place at this hour, or a child has to wait in an unsafe situation for business hours.

      1. Beveled Edge*

        Find a reorganization of the schedule that gives her enough burdensome shifts at hours when she can be awake that the staff doesn’t revolt for taking on more morning shifts. And remind her coworkers that this isn’t a matter of laziness or her unwillingness to do the job, but just the way her body works. Sometimes, your body just won’t wake up unless you believe your life is in danger. And I don’t think emulating life-threatening wake-up situations is the way to go here.

        But first I’d advocate work buying her one of the vibrating alarm solutions people have been discussing here. I haven’t heard about those before; maybe that’ll work. But if it doesn’t, the team needs to confront the reality that her body is fighting back against this, AND they’ll be in worse shape if she’s fired.

        1. Allonge*

          And what if slowly everyone else also starts being unable to wake up at 3am due to the additional burden? OP also needs to consider long-term consequences.

          Of course there is no easy solution if the various tech options fail! It’s just not really ok to say ‘this is inhumane for Coworker X’ and ask everyone else on the team to do more of the inhumane thing.

        2. Trout 'Waver*

          Two things. First: if the job is what I think it is, it’s not simply being awake in the middle of the night to answer a phone call. It’s waking up, and going on-site to a place where domestic violence, substance use, and armed law enforcement officials likely are present, and ensuring the safety and well being of a frightened child. This is hard, stressful, and dangerous to everyone involved in ways that non-emergency calls aren’t. I don’t think its just the time of night that makes this part of the job harder.

          Second, there isn’t a solution where you exempt someone from the toughest part of a job and everyone else is happy about it. It will negatively impact the morale of the team and specifically the people who have to cover for that person.

    5. BlueCactus*

      Sometimes if people don’t get out of bed for on-call jobs, people can die. There are a lot of unnatural things we have to do in certain jobs, and we have to figure out how to handle it if that’s an essential part of the job, which it sounds like it is, here. It’s unbelievably degrading to mroale if one person is exempt from call shifts because they suck for everyone. It sounds like they haven’t workshopped really any solutions to this – there very well may be an option that helps OP’s coworker! It feels very premature to say that technology definitively won’t help when nothing has even been tried.

    6. DramaQ*

      This is a matter of potential life/death for children in abusive situations. It is unfair from both a physical and emotional standpoint to expect her to coworkers to have to shoulder even more of the on call duties than they already do. It is not a knock against her if she can’t handle the work, lots of people can’t but that doesn’t mean she should keep her current job. Would you be understanding if a loved one died on the operating table because they just could not wake up the on call surgeon and had to try to get a hold of the second? Some jobs are just too critical to try to accommodate people who can’t hack the schedule. I think the fact that this is “social work” is clouding people’s judgement in regards to being forgiving about her sleeping through calls. Her being available is just as critical as an on call doctor or EMT at those hours. It’s a core requirement of the job. If she can’t do it then yes she needs to be let go, not expect the others to be on call even more which leads to resentment and burn out on their parts.

      1. Vanamonde von Mekkhan*

        I have nothing substantial to add to LW1 other than to say thank you to all social workers everywhere. You people are doing an amazing job!

    7. Productivity Pigeon*

      Eh…

      I mean, sure, we were meant to sleep at night.

      But somehow parents/child caretakers manage to be woken up nightly all over the world.

      I’d be interested to hear your solution though.
      Apparently emergencies related to children’s welfare occasionally happen late at night. Someone needs to deal with them.

      If the human body isn’t meant to be dragged out of bed and that is an unreasonable expectation, how should these emergencies be dealt with? And by whom?

      1. Jackalope*

        I have so much respect for parents who are caring for very young children who wake them up on the regular (every night? A few times a night? A few times a week? Whatever it is for them.) At the same time, that’s very different from this. If you’re a parent, most of the time you can stay in your pajamas, in your own house. Maybe your child needs food or a diaper change, maybe something scary happened and you need to bring comfort, but whatever it is, most of the time it will be your own child (or for nannies, a child you are very familiar with). You’re less likely to have to wake up your brain and body entirely to deal with the situation, if your child is more than a few weeks old you’ve probably got a decent idea of what works for them specifically, and you aren’t dealing with law enforcement or a terrified child who doesn’t know you or other issues like that. And you can just slip back into bed when you’re done, which could be after a long time but could also be a few minutes, and even if you can’t fall asleep for awhile you are back in your own bed with your own sheets and blankets. In short, it’s a very different situation from the emergencies that these social workers are dealing with.

    8. Esmae*

      If someone’s body simply can’t accomplish an important part of their job, even with accommodations, then they can’t do that job. We don’t know that that’s the case with LW1’s coworker — she may just need a different type of alarm/ringer, or there may be a way to modify her schedule so this isn’t a problem. But, yes, sometimes people can’t keep their jobs if they aren’t physically capable of doing their job duties.

    9. I Pay Taxes, Too*

      As somebody recently diagnosed with hypersomnia (or possibly narcolepsy, but the sleep specialist is leaning toward hypersomnia), the assertion that technology could solve this was actually a little insulting.

      What’s funny is I’m normally a very light sleeper – woken up to a piece of paper falling off a desk, no joke – but if “technology” could help me get through a day without falling asleep in inappropriate situations (like behind the wheel or in a meeting), I would be thrilled. I would much prefer that to the stimulants I’m prescribed.

      I hate to say it, but if the agency can’t afford a permanent night-shift staff to eliminate the on-call system entirely, and if there is a chronic inability to perform essential job duties, then this employee might not be suited to the job.

      1. Observer*

        the assertion that technology could solve this was actually a little insulting.

        I don’t think that anyone is *asserting* that technology WILL solve the problem. Just that it’s a more realistic option, and one that is worth trying.

        And you are right – it’s possible that this person is not suited to the job.

      2. Reebee*

        The technology does work for some people, though, and it was suggested as such as a possible solution to the problem.

        I don’t see at all what’s so “insulting” about that.

  13. PJ*

    this exact solution won’t work since the letter writer relies on a call, but when I was adjusting to an earlier schedule at a new job and terrified of waking up late I got the “screaming meanie” alarm clock which can be set to a crazy loud volume.

    Knowing that exists though I’m sure there’s a technology solution that exists, whether it’s the call triggering a louder alarm, flashing lights (same way a smoke alarm wakes you up)

  14. Span*

    I work in the out of home care sector and work on call for a week at a time (24/7) every couple of months. I am a very heavy sleeper so I either sleep with the phone in my pyjama sleeve or set alarms to wake up every 1 1/2-2 hours to check the phone/prevent myself from sleeping too heavily. It’s not ideal, but that’s what I do and it works for me.

    1. allathian*

      Yeah, I was wondering if she could set her alarm so she’d wake up before the deep sleep phase hits, like 2 am, on the nights that she’s on call?

      On the nights that people are on call, do they get the following day off or do they have to go to work as normal?

      1. Lomster*

        If it’s like my spouse’s government on-call, you don’t get the following day off if nothing significant happened, but you can come in late or have the day off if you spent part or all of the night dealing with a situation (like actually having to leave the house or spending most of the night awake and on the phone).

    2. Roland*

      This is a really good idea to try if extra tech is not feasible for whatever reason. Will it suck? Yeah, but them’s the breaks.

    3. Alarms*

      That’s great, but it sounds like alarms actually wake you up? Most deep sleepers I know will sleep through alarms, even very loud and very persistent alarms.

      1. Happy meal with extra happy*

        I had a roommate in college who persistently slept through alarms to the point where, the night before a morning exam, she just slept in the classroom.

      2. Dahlia*

        In the letter, it says she only has problems at certain hours and wakes up fine at other times. So waking up before those hours would presumably work.

  15. Viette*

    LW3 – “just stop talking politics with or in front of me” you can get the former but you cannot reliably or appropriately get the latter without burning a lot of capital. I recognize you feel excluded and hate it being assumed that you agree with others politically, but it is going to take a serious and overt campaign if you want to make it so everyone just stops talking about politics in your presence. Certainly the button won’t do that, but I would suggest that the degree of effort (and imposition on others’ conversations) you’d have to make will lose a lot of your political (ha) capital at work.

    If it’s worth it and you’ve got reputation to burn, I expect you’d have to just say, out loud, over and over, “can you please not talk about politics when I’m in the room?” You’d really need to be beloved/powerful to make that work, though.

    1. Your Former Password Resetter*

      I don’t think it’s a big political capital thing to ask though.
      Most people understand that politics is stressful, and asking to not have to listen to it isn’t an unreasonable ask.

      1. blah*

        Sure it’s not an unreasonable ask, but if your office is 10 people and 9 of them enthusiastically want to discuss politics, being the lone person telling them to not do that can move it into the unreasonable realm.

        1. ferrina*

          Totally agree- the ask itself is totally reasonable (it’s reasonable not to want to talk politics at work!) but that doesn’t mean that everyone will respond reasonably.

          LW can also try to find an ally. Sometimes there is someone who is willing to advocate to their friends. Tell them that the political chatter is stressing you out and that you’d really like if they took it outside– don’t bring the “politics is bad for work” into it unless you think that the person will be receptive to that. The “politics is stressing me out” is a pretty universal sentiment from all political viewpoints, so there is probably someone who will empathize with you. See if you can get their help in shifting the chatter outside the office, or at the bare minimum into the break room and away from your desk.

    2. Bilateralrope*

      Note that the LW is complaining about feeling ‘othered’.

      Successfully shutting down political conversations in their presence seems like it will make that worse, because people will have to avoid the LW to talk about what they want to discuss.

      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        Yeah. I’m sympathetic because I do not want to hear about politics at work either (it saps my focus like crazy), but the sense of being “other” here may not be avoidable. Asking people to not talk *to* you about politics is probably quite doable; most people understand “election news saturation” regardless of party. Asking people to not talk about it around you (as in, not to talk about it in e.g. the lunchroom when you’re around) is much harder and would require some clout to enforce. But even there, the conversations will happen, just not around you.

        So while not getting into awkward or contentious conversations yourself is an extremely achievable goal, I don’t know that the other half of this—not wanting to be othered, wanting the same opportunities to bond—necessarily is. The good news is that the fever pitch of political discussion won’t be as “two months from presidential election” levels forever.

      2. Katie*

        I do think “othering” is okay when it comes to political views, though. Political views are not a protected class.

      3. Yikes Stripes*

        Yep.

        I can promise you that I would be thinking less than complimentary thoughts about a new or newish coworker who had yet to bond with the group and who was trying to dictate the conversational norms of our office. It would also very much turn me off of the idea of “bonding” with them, that’s for sure and would give me concerns about their level of entitlement.

        1. Yikes Stripes*

          To add on to the above: I would *not* have the same issue with a new or newish coworker cheerfully shutting down conversational attempts *with them* about politics with a “I’m sorry, I’m just not up to talking politics right now” or whatever.

    3. Mockingjay*

      You can shut down the conversation or you can redirect the conversation in a light manner. The latter might avoid the “othering” effect that OP3 is experiencing.

      “Oh, I discuss my choices in the voting booth.” (Now comes the redirect – change the subject to something innocuous or work-related.) “Have you noticed the hint of fall colors in the trees?” “By the way, did you ever get the data for the sales report?”

      Even a lighthearted groan: “Oh, I’d rather not discuss the election at work. It’s permeating everything and it’s exhausting, don’t you think?” Then redirect.

      By offering a subject change, OP3 shows that they are willing to keep interacting, just on another topic. (Likely at least some of their coworkers feel the same, they are just trapped in the ongoing conversation.)

      1. ferrina*

        I’ve had luck with:
        “I’m electioned-out. Could we talk about something else for a bit?”

        The election-exhaustion is something that a lot of people are familiar with, regardless of where they are politically (bonus: it keeps OP from having to identify their politics).

        Saying “I keep politics in the voting booth” may backfire, as public discourse is important to what happens within the voting booth (though I totally agree with OP that the workplace is not the place for that public discourse). It opens the door to an argument about where politics should/should not be discussed, and I think that is the opposite of what OP wants.

        Note that these only really work if OP is serious about not wanting to discuss politics at work- if OP starts wearing political buttons, that’s a way of discussing politics (and wearing a political button and saying “but don’t respond to my button” is very silly and unrealistic)

      2. A Library Person*

        I think the lighthearted groan wording above is far less likely to inadvertently signal “I’m a Trump person” than other ways of saying “please no” might in this particular election context and it seems like a great choice for this situation. People along the political spectrum will generally agree with that sentiment and this might be the best way for OP to reduce the amount of political talk around them without seeming abrasive or inviting further debate.

      3. Smithy*

        When you’re in an office where there already is a lot of that kind of chat and enthusiasm, I’ve actually found that saying all of the election talk is making you anxious so you’re doing your best to disengage to be really effective.

        I think it’s common for lots of people – regardless of their affiliation to be fairly understanding of that anxiety. It doesn’t need to be presented in the medical diagnosis sense, but I think can be effective both in communicating how serious someone is in avoiding the topic as well as not expending personal capital at work.

      4. Yikes Stripes*

        “I keep my choices/opinions in the voting booth” would immediately read as someone with political takes that don’t sing harmony with mine and would assume MAGA beliefs as that’s far more likely than someone voting for Cornel West. And I’m sorry, I would be civil and polite to OP at work, but would actively avoid anything beyond that.

    4. Turquoisecow*

      Yeah you can redirect conversations you’re involved in and change the topic or ask people not to discuss politics with you personally but I don’t think OP is going to be able to stop people from talking about politics (or any topic) around them without being seen as a huge misanthropic grump. Especially if it’s an open office or cubicle farm thing where everyone can hear everyone else’s casual conversations. If someone three desks away from you is having a conversation about a topic you don’t like, you can’t really tell them to stop.

      And wearing a political candidate button is probably going to lead to a conversation where people ask who that is (especially someone like West who many people on this thread hadn’t heard of, maybe Jill Stein or RFK, Jr would be more effective) or otherwise comment on their political campaign. The conversation will not go:

      OP: *wears button*
      Coworker: oh OP supports (third party candidate), I will not speak to them about Harris or anything related.

      but is more likely to go

      OP: *wears button*
      Coworker: oh who’s that?
      OP: it’s a third party candidate I’m supporting
      Coworker: oh, never heard of them, tell me all about why you support them and why you think third party candidates are a viable choice

      Or:

      Coworker: oh, you’re supporting (candidate)? That’s a terrible idea, let me tell you why!

    6. Hyaline*

      One problem here is that “I don’t prefer to talk politics” is not the same as “do not ever utter any political conversation in my vicinity”–LW needs to understand the difference between these, because “near” and “with” are not at all the same. It’s not realistic to control other people’s conversations except in kind of extreme and specific circumstances (their speech is damaging or bigoted, it’s invading privacy, it’s slander or unnecessarily provocative…) and I don’t think feeling like the odd man out because of political differences is going to cut it clearly here. LW can certainly shut it down when the conversation is WITH him, but he really can’t shut it down AROUND him without burning some major capital and also further “othering” himself.

  16. NotJenFromTheITCrowd*

    My husband has an on call rota as part of his job. They always have a second person available in case the first can’t get there (already on another call/only just returned from another or not had much sleep that week already due to calls). So the company could look at additional staffing.
    My husband is a fairly light sleeper anyway but when he’s on call his ringtone for work is set LOUD. Occasionally it wakes only me and not him, so I then wake him.
    It may be worth exploring if there is someone else with the person unable to wake up who is fed up/hates having their sleep disturbed, so the person doesn’t leave their ringtone on at that point? I mean, my husband’s always wakes me and sometimes that sucks, but it comes with the territory. Not all partners would be so understanding though, especially if arrangements are such that they can’t sleep separately and so disruption is inevitable.
    Also, people suggesting things like Apple Watch etc, I’ve used this for myself in the past but I find I have to change what I do every few months as I learn in my sleep how to not only snooze but actually turn off my alarm completely(!!!) so this is something else the person may be doing without even realising. It definitely needs more exploration with empathy!

    1. tommy*

      the company could look at additional staffing

      it’s child welfare / social work. there’s very little money in the budget. staff is already underpaid and overworked.

      1. uncivil servant*

        Yup. If money is being spent hiring someone else to do those nights, I can guarantee you it would be INSTEAD of this worker, not in addition to her.

      2. NotJenFromTheITCrowd*

        Not disputing that at all, but it would solve the issue. A lot of sectors like that need more money. People being unable to wake up readily enough in the night could be due to being tired where they’re overworked, so the only solution is better funding for more people to better spread the load. But I realise this is unrealistic!

  17. Coyote River*

    LW3 I understand your frustration. Although I lean somewhat conservative, I have very little interest in discussing politics and none whatsoever in debating it or changing anyone’s mind. If someone brings it up I interrupt them as quickly as possible to say that I don’t discuss politics, and eventually they get the message.

    1. Reebee*

      I wish workplace higher-ups would just establish politics as NSFW. I mean, if co-workers want to go out to lunch, take a walk, etc. and discuss, have at it. But it’s unfair to put the burden on co-workers to work it out amongst themselves and risk alienation. I say that as a stinking hippie liberal. Higher ups, y’all need to set the rules of engagement on political discussions in the common work space to “NO!”

  19. Varthema*

    For the LW who doesn’t want to talk politics I’d actually reframe her comment as “Can we take a break on election talk? I’m burned out/find it stressful and distracting to think about.” Presumably this is true, and might find more fertile ground. There’s a certain pushback to the “I don’t want to talk about politics” argument, but nobody can fault election talk burnout, no matter which side they take.

    2. Somehow I Manage*

      This works really well. It also indicates a timeframe a little better than “I don’t want to talk about politics” because that could mean right now versus forever. You could edit the second sentence a bit, too, if you want to remove any emotions from it. “It is all I hear about on TV and the radio, and would love a respite from it when I come to work.”

    3. Hyaline*

      And I think they may find at least a few coworkers who agree with them and are happy someone said it.

  20. Edward Williams*

    #1: I’ve seen an alarm clock that not only gets louder and Louder and LouDer and LOUDER but rolls around on the floor so the sleepyhead has to “corner” it and shut the alarm off.

    1. I edit everything*

      But could it be hooked to a phone? These are emergency calls that can come in at any time of the night, not a regular time you can set an alarm for.

    2. Ginger Cat Lady*

      And if the employee knew ahead of time when/if a call was going to come in, this might be relevant. But since there’s no predictability to on-call needs, an alarm like this wouldn’t be helpful.

  21. Lioness*

    #3 I agree with the others. Wearing a button supporting a political candidate running for president is not going to have the effect you think it’ll have.
    Either they won’t recognize it and therefore have no idea who you support/don’t support and will keep talking about politics because you won’t use your words to just say it’s too much and you need a break.

    Or maybe someone does recognize it and you’ll be pulled into conversations regarding voting third party. And if this does happen, would the feeling of being “othered” go away? If it is heavily democrat and not just leaning democrat they may feel like you don’t care about their rights or etc even if you don’t think that. Not sure if it’ll help with bonding versus just trying to tamper the political talk overall regardless of political alignment.

    1. darsynia*

      I’d also say that realistically, wearing a Cornell West button will continue the ‘othering’ well past the election if the LW’s coworkers are really into politics in general. Whether or not that’s fair, it just is (the same way some employees are biased against certain hobbies or sports teams or [name a group] once they find out a coworker is involved in them. Even if they never mention it again and their behavior isn’t informed by that on either side, *knowing* can be enough to cause mental othering in a way that’s not actionable).

      1. 80% Caffeine*

        Yeah, this would be me, sorry. I wouldn’t say anything to them, at work or ever, but I would privately think poorly of their judgment. That might not ever matter to them, since it’s not actionable nor should it be, but at a workplace like they describe I doubt I would be alone in that reaction, and some people would not keep it to themselves.

        1. Katie*

          Agreed. Political views are not a protected class and I actually wish at-will employers would fire people over them more often.

  22. Vincent Adultman’s assistant*

    Yeah I am really amazed at how “I got a Cornell west button so no one will talk politics at me” is somehow less effort than just saying “I’m burned out on election and politics talk, can we change the subject please? How about them Eagles???”

    Unless LW3 actually does want to lecture their coworkers on how great The Architect is and how Matrix 2 and 3 were just misunderstood, man!! (And whatever platform Westie is actually running on, I don’t honestly care, someone who has paid for that many divorce lawyers cannot possibly make good economic decisions*)

    *like another ex-prez/candidate I can think of (cymbal riff)

    1. Ellis Bell*

      So much so that I’m wondering if OP actually does detest politics and it’s actually the attempts to find out whether she’s pro-Harris or pro-Trump that is bothering her. I think the button would sort that out, but should only be worn if she is willing to talk about Cornell West; otherwise the best way to signal that she’s not going to bite at a political debate is a lot of shrugging and grey rocking. Every time someone makes a pro-Trump or pro-Harris remark, just go “Eh” or “Huh” or something equally fascinating.

    2. Allonge*

      I don’t know if OP was necessarily focusing on less effort – I think they are just looking for a universal way to indicate wanting to opt out.

      What they came up with is not a good one! But the wish is legit all the same.

    3. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      What got me was that LW talks about putting a button on their coat, which I interpreted as meaning the coat they wear outside and then take off at work. Coworkers probably won’t see that button very often (if at all)…. so even if that could work (which, no, as discussed) it wouldn’t even have a chance to work.

      Plus the whole thing about, you know, other people not paying nearly as much attention to us as we assume/hope/fear they are.

  23. El l*

    OP4:
    Some are “having a twilight time”…all the time.

    Multiple times per hour? I’d wonder how much you could be getting done if it were more than multiple times per week.

    “You need to find a way to cope with everyday stressors for everyday situations. Thats at least when you’re working, and on your own, and without requiring someone to process for you. I can’t be that someone who processes, and I don’t think anybody else can either – this place is for working.” That’s the message.

  25. Hyaline*

    A lot of responses to LW1 are approaching it as though she never wakes when called during the wee hours—but we don’t know that. She missed three calls. Was that three of three, three of ten, three of three hundred? I do think that affects things (a three strikes policy gets damn unfair with something like this if it’s spread over years!). If she almost always wakes, I’m not sure this is the massive issue it’s made out to be—yes, she should take steps to fix it, but it might not be testable the way it would be if she was trying to find something that would work for the first time.

    1. I should really pick a name*

      The LW already established the acceptable standard:

      Our general office policy is that it’s fine for this to happen once

      1. Myrin*

        That doesn’t really have anything to do with what Hyaline says, though, unless I’m misunderstanding your point.
        Hyaline points out that from the letter, we don’t know if the three calls the coworker missed were the entirety of times she’s ever actually been called – meaning she missed 100% of those very-early-morning calls – or whether the coworker actually woke up the 97 other times she’s been called at 3 a.m., meaning she missed 3% of the very-early-morning calls.

        1. I should really pick a name*

          What I’m saying is that if the LW presents it as a problem, we should accept that it’s a problem.

          1. Also-ADHD*

            I don’t think the person was saying it wasn’t a problem. Just that it may be unclear the level or nature of the problem—if it is EVERY time vs sometimes, you could look at different things.

        2. PTW*

          I think causing a delay in getting aid to a child in crisis more than once is unacceptable no matter what the percentage is.

          1. Myrin*

            I didn’t say anything to the contrary – I just explained Hyaline‘s point because I didn’t get the connection to I should‘s reply. Now that they’ve explained, I see what they meant.

          2. Hyaline*

            Except we live in the real world and it will happen sometimes–that’s why any protocol will have backups and redundancies. The kids are getting help–that’s clear from the letter–but the neighboring agency is annoyed that they’re getting called. So the problem isn’t that kids in crisis aren’t being helped, it’s that fellow workers are inconvenienced. I’m not saying the employee shouldn’t take steps to fix this, but what those steps are could really depend on the finer points of the problem, like frequency.

            1. Observer*

              Except we live in the real world and it will happen sometimes–that’s why any protocol will have backups and redundancies.

              But the expectation is that when it happens, the person it happens with will *solve* the problem. 3 times means that the problem is not solved.

              The kids are getting help–that’s clear from the letter–but the neighboring agency is annoyed that they’re getting called.

              Well, yes. But the part you left out is that the help is getting delayed. And often in situations like this time is crucial. So it’s more of a problem than you are accepting.

              it’s that fellow workers are inconvenienced.

              No. It’s that others are having a significant burden placed on them. AND crucial help is being delayed.

        3. Antilles*

          Does that matter? The standard that’s required and met by everybody else is that you’re expected to answer every single call. The job needs those calls answered every single time because the emergencies must be responded to; every single time co-worker misses a call that’s a major issue because it means pulling people from other areas and it takes longer to respond to the emergency.
          Even if it is indeed only missing 3% of the calls, that’s still failing at the standard because the required bar is 0%.

          1. Myrin*

            I didn’t say anything to the contrary – I just explained Hyaline‘s point because I didn’t get the connection to I should‘s reply. Now that they’ve explained, I see what they meant.

          2. Hyaline*

            I think it does matter quite a bit when it comes to how to approach and solve the problem. For one, a required bar of zero is ridiculous and unsustainable–eventually, every long-term employee will probably miss a call for some reason. Even the employer knows zero is not feasible–that’s why they have three strikes. But over the span of several years, depending on frequency of calls, even that bar could be ridiculous and unsustainable–what if that means you miss .01% or even 1% of calls? An employer could certainly decide that’s fireable, and that’s their right, but most of us would say “Good riddance, that’s being ridiculous and legalistic.” Since we don’t know where on that spectrum we are, we really can’t say if this is a “yeah, this employee really needs to figure their shit out” problem or a “wow, three times in ten years is actually not a problem, you’re being unrealistic.” But probably more importantly, it affects the problem solving angle–if something works 95% of the time for this employee, it’s different than if nothing they’ve tried works once. If 90% of the time she wakes up for the phone call, maybe the solution is as simple as “the person calling needs to call twice.” But if the employee truly cannot wake up ever for anything, I start to agree with commenters saying “if you can’t do part of the job, you can’t do part of the job and so should probably find something else.”

          3. commensally*

            I think it does matter otherwise as well – the current standard is that you can miss one call, ever. That means someone who misses one call out of 1000 after working there for 20 years is being held to the same standard as someone who misses one call their first month working there, when those are two very different situations that need different solutions. (We have some “one free mistake” policies for users of our services at work and it’s desperately unfair for the heavy users who may only make the mistake once every thousand times, when most people won’t even try it a thousand times.)

            A “one mistake ever” policy for this may have been put in place with the assumption of “after missing one call, they need to figure out why the mistake happened and fix that problem,” rather than the “everyone makes mistakes sometimes but keep it rare” reasoning. But it sounds like the employees here aren’t actually being given the support they should for the”figure out why and fix it” part.

            1. judyjudyjudy*

              Do you think the LW practically speaking can affect the policy? I understand that this “one mistake policy” could be unfair, but does the LW have any standing to change it? What actionable item have you presented here?

        5. fhqwhgads*

          I think if the normal standard is “once: severe talking to, twice: let go” it doesn’t really matter what proportion of on-call middle of the night calls she missed. It really is about the hard number.

  26. Shrugmoji*

    I agree with Allison’s advice, a button will only make the conversations more intense. If you feel othered right now imagine how much worse it will get if you wear a button for a joke candidate.
    (You have the right to vote for who ever you like of course, and it would be useful to have a legitimate third party or parties in this country. However it takes work to build a party up from local/state to national that so far has not been done by anyone. All the third party candidates are merely vanity grift campaigns at this point in time.)

  27. Owl*

    #1: oof, I would be that employee. I am and always have been a night owl and a deep sleeper. While I can occasionally get up super early for, say, a flight (and I’d have to set several alarms to make that happen/I usually sleep poorly the entire night before because I am so anxious about missing the alarm), any situation where I have to be awake and out of bed before, say, 6:30 (which is pushing it) is a total crapshoot. I’ll have strange dreams about all of the alarms I’m hearing, but my body will just not wake up.

    Ask me about the time (very early in my career) when I thought that being at an office in pantyhose and heels and a suit at 6 am every day would be viable….

    1. Owl*

      So I guess my point is, it may be that your employer is doing all she can, but her body will just never adjust. I’m not sure what to do at that point – can you adjust her on call expectations (is there a way to shift things so she’s expected to take all of the later morning calls and give the wee hours calls to someone else? I know that may not be ideal, and I’m not sure how your system works exactly, but just trying to think of possible solutions

      1. CTT*

        It sounds like it’s an essential function of her job to be on call the whole night. It’s not shift work.

  28. Not Alison*

    Wake-up problem: Is there possibly another solution to the time the staff needs to be on call. If staff needs to be on call from 7pm to 7am, what if two times in the 10 day period this particular staffer is on call from 7pm to 1am and another staffer can be on call from 1am to 7am (this assumes that another staffer would agree to be on call those early morning times).

    Or some other splitting up of the times that would work for this particular staffer and another (say the staffer who has a problem waking up takes over 50% of the shift that is a more favorable time and another staffer would take less than 50% of the less desirable time).

  29. I edit everything*

    When I was in college, and up until we got our first puppy who needed potty breaks in the middle of the night, I was a very, very heavy sleeper.
    I slept through multiple fire alarms in my college dorm. If that didn’t wake me up, I’m not sure what would have. Light, possibly, or something vibrating the bed, but I wouldn’t guarantee it.
    Could the agency post the job, and give the employee until they’ve narrowed down the list to interviewees to figure it out?

    1. Waiting on the bus*

      That would be my suggestion. Post the job because hiring in social care is a nightmare, and stay in touch with the employee to help her find possible solutions. If she works it out, great. But if she doesn’t and the search pans out, it might be necessary to let her go.

      Having said that, a comment further up makes the point about how many calls she managed to get, which does influence my answer. If she answered 97 calls and missed three, then I wouldn’t bother, since she’s otherwise good at her job. At that point I’d look at ways to mitigate fall out for missed calls.

      But if she’s three for three, she might simply be unable to perform a core part of her job.

  30. MsM*

    LW3: This probably works better on a bunch of history wonks than the average office worker, but you could do what some of my colleagues do and wear a really old campaign slogan (e.g. “Tippecanoe and Tyler Too”). If you do still end up getting drawn into a debate, at least the stakes are less immediate.

    1. Forrest Rhodes*

      I like that, MsM. I was thinking a “Kinky Friedman for President” button would work, but sadly, Kinky has left the building.

    2. commensally*

      I’ve been seriously considering altering a sticker I got to read “*Zonker* Harris for President” just to see what happens.

    3. Madre del becchino*

      I wish I still had my college-era T-shirt that read “Don’t blame me, I voted for Bill and Opus.” (Bloom County comic strip, for those who don’t know.)

  31. Kitty Cat Career*

    LW 1: Vibrating alarms on my body help. I need ear plugs, eye masks, and a sound machine to sleep, so an audible or visible alarm doesn’t do much for me. But a physical one? Yes. Just make sure it vibrates enough. And that it’s charged and doesn’t drain

    1. londonedit*

      The problem is that this isn’t an alarm – she’s not having trouble waking up at a specific time. It’s a phone call. She needs to be able to wake up at the sound of the phone ringing with an emergency call. So unless she can find a way of making the ringtone/vibrate loud enough that she’ll reliably wake up, it’s going to continue to be a problem.

      1. Kitty Cat Career*

        Yeah, you’re right. Pre watch days I put the phone on my pillow. Not great for other reasons, but it got me up.

      3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        She could get a smart watch that connects via bluetooth to the phone. When a phone call comes in the watch will vibrate. There are some good ones that are pretty inexpensive (under $50) and they work really well and vibrate good.

  32. Somehow I Manage*

    This may come across as a bit harsh related to the employee in letter 4, but this may be a time for a more direct conversation about what’s happening. Not the what’s happening related to why they’re stressed or angry…because that’s more than you need to dig into at work. But the what’s happening specific to venting to someone multiple times an hour, especially if doors have been opened to outside resources that can help the employee more and better than coworkers.

    OP should talk to the employee’s manager and the manager should go to the employee with a couple of very direct statements.

    “You’ve been going to MY boss multiple times an hour sometimes to vent about things that aren’t work-related. That must stop.”

    “We have resources available to you to help – EAP, flex scheduling, etc. – and those are still available. Those are places better equipped to provide assistance. I’m telling you, not asking you, that you’re going to need to manage whatever is happening using those resources rather than bringing them to your coworkers.”

    “We understand that people all go through things in their lives that cause difficulties. And we support you. But we also need to ensure that we’re able to get our jobs done. And that includes others being able to get their jobs done.”

    If things continue, reset the conversation and tell them just to stop directly.

    1. ferrina*

      Before any of that, LW just needs to shut this down on a case-by-case basis.

      “I’m sorry, I’m in the middle of something. Is there a work question here?”
      “You can handle this yourself. Excuse me, I need to get back to what I was doing.”
      “I don’t think you need me in this. I’ll talk to you later.”
      “Why are you telling me this?” (awkward stare)

      It sounds like LW might have been trying to be sympathetic and inadvertently sent the message that they were available for venting. If they shut this down a few times, it may reset the expectations. If not, the next step is for the LW to shut this down. I think pulling in the manager to address it may backfire- I’ve seen many employees blame the messenger on things like this.

  33. DisneyChannelThis*

    Look into what hard of hearing people use for phone call notifications. I know my RA has a iphone and theres a setting so the flash on the camera goes off like a strobe light when its ringing in case her hearing aids aren’t on. You can also buy devices that turn the lights on when something rings you just have to pair with the phone.

  34. MakingBiscuits*

    Regarding #2 (Jane being rude), do you have enough to juice to slap her around the exact same way and get away with it?

    I would advise talking directly to Jane and asking expressly to stop embarrassing your intern in public teams channels. Do this once. If she persists? Call *her* out directly in the Teams chats whenever she does it. “Jane, today you criticized Maria in this channel for a minor mistake, AFTER I have expressly asked you to stop. I am her manager. YOU are not. You are NOT to do that again, Do we need to speak with your manager? Because this is a clear example of YOUR poor performance, and will not be tolerated. Because this is an ongoing problem with you, going forward, whenever you do this, I will be pointing out in the same medium the mistake that YOU are making. Please cease your inappropriate behavior immediately.”

    If Jane thinks what she is doing is fine? She can’t have you (a more senior emploeyee) doing the exact same thing, right?

    1. Lady Danbury*

      Completely disagree. The way to get people to stop behaving inappropriately/unprofessionally in the office is not by modeling the behavior that you’re trying to curb. All that does is send a message to the entire office that if they make mistakes/act inappropriately in a public way, then it will be addressed publicly, which is the complete opposite of what you’re trying to encourage.

      1. MakingBiscuits*

        You’re right that it *modeling*, but you are modeling the EXACT behavior of the person behaving inappropriately. Sometimes a show of public discipline is necessary and effective. As I originally stated, the OP should *start* with a direct discussion with Jane. “This behavior is counterproductive and should stop immediately.”

        If Jane doesn’t see how it is inappropriate and refuses to stop? You show her the consequences of disobeying by ding *the exact same thing* to her. Jane stops publicly shaming the intern? Then Jane stops getting shamed publicly. Jane continues to shame the intern publicly? Jane continues to get shamed.

        What happens to jane is entirely up to her. If she behaves appropriately? Everything is fine. If she makes the conscious choice to behave inappropriately? Then she’s making the conscious choice to get knocked around publicly. Her call.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          It’s not consistent with the policy of public praise and privately correct, though. This could put everyone else on edge thinking OP changed their tactics, and “Oh crap, am I now going to be called out on Teams if I goof?”

          I think OP should mention it privately to Jane once, and if that doesn’t stop it, then they should go to Jane’s manager.

          1. Lady Danbury*

            Yup, the concept of modeling bad behavior back is terrible. If an employee is bullying someone else, should her managers bully her back? If someone is oversharing inappropriately, should you overshare in response? I promise that it will not get the needed results and will only increase the likelihood that others start exhibiting the bad behavior.

    2. commensally*

      I think this would be very counterproductive.

      My intuition here is that Jane is pointing out other people’s mistakes publicly because she feels like she’s being singled out by her boss for doing things that literally everyone else gets away with, maybe even for other people’s mistakes – and she’s trying to make that more visible because she doesn’t see any other recourse. Responding by actually singling her out differently from rules applied to other staff will just reinforce it.

      (Having been in the situation where that *was* happening to me – I checked in with coworkers privately about it, nobody else’s supervisor cared, and when mine left the person I was transferred to told me it was not in fact a problem – I understand the temptation, especially if Jane’s been in that situation before.)

      Alison’s advice is good here – Jane needs to be told that these kinds of mistakes are always discussed privately with the people making them, and she needs to bring them to her supervisor if it’s causing her a problem, not bring them up publicly or make assumptions about what other managers are doing. And if it is more of a problem that Jane is doing it than that the intern is doing it, that should be explicitly brought up by the supervisor too (Intern is still in training, Jane, but you have the experience to be held to a higher standard. Or whatever.)

      That said, if these mistakes are being made frequently and repeatedly by multiple employees, and they’re the kind of mistakes that are clearly visible to all staff, you might need to consider other methods that “bringing them up privately to individual employees.” Publicly calling people out is not better, of course! But people seeing mistakes being made on a regular basis and not seeing any response is how you end up with people thinking the mistake is just how it’s done. It might be time to either reassess why multiple people are having difficulty with this particular thing and if an overall procedure change is in order, or to post a public reminder that this thing is very important and here’s a refresher for correct procedure.

  35. Coffee Protein Drink*

    #3: I don’t understand why you can’t simply say, “I don’t talk about politics at work.” I’m surprised your company doesn’t have something noted in the dress code about no political slogans or paraphernalia.

    The button is provocative. Don’t do it.

    1. GenX, PhD, Enters the Chat*

      Frankly I think it’s intentionally provocative. If he starts wearing that button and people ask about it he’s going to pick a fight, for sure. “Don’t talk to me about politics, but also listen to me long-winded explanation of why I’m wearing a Cornel West button. But I don’t want to talk about it. Really.”

      1. Pizza Rat*

        I think so too. Look how many people in the comments don’t know who Cornell West is. People are going to ask and that’s going to spur something loud and unpleasant.

        2. Observer*

          Look how many people in the comments don’t know who Cornell West is

          I don’t even think that that’s the most telling thing, though. Even if you know who he is and know that he’s running, it’s provocative. Like *THAT* is who you are going to prefer to either candidate? That’s going to be the reaction of a number of people who actually agree that both candidates are bad news.

  36. Chocolate Croissant*

    #2, I am furious on my behalf because I tend to feel very protective towards my interns. One of the reasons they’re there is to learn office etiquette and Jane should not be modeling it.

    I admire your calm and please address this as soon as you can. Jane needs to shut up in front of everyone else, anyone else. The intern reports to you and she needs to know Jane’s behavior is not what should be modeled in an office.

    Talk to your supervisor, please. Tell your intern what Allison said. If Jane does it again in Teams, just say, “We’ll take that offline, Jane. Come to me privately next time.”

    Good luck!

  37. A Book about Metals*

    Do you mind elaborating? I don’t think wearing a Cornel West button will achieve what LW wants, but not wanting to talk politics at work is fine regardless of demographics

    1. anon4ny*

      I think it being an election year and being in a blue liberal city that’s recently seen large enthusiasm for Harris’ nomination makes conversations more likely to occur in the workplace.

      Plus, there’s religious places of work, political places of work, legal sex work, etc. that makes your point moot.

  39. Hyaline*

    LW5, I don’t want to sound mean here, but elevator pitches are formulaic and often turn out very similar. I’m not sure how unique your metaphor was, but it may not have been as unique as you think, and as to structure–well, that’s very likely not unique because pitches have a pretty standard structure. You’re jumping from “a very formulaic piece of writing turned out the same between two of us” to “this person will definitely *pass off my personal anecdotes as her own*” which is quite a jump! Is there something more going on with this person that makes you distrust her? It’s ok if you just have bad vibes about her and this confirmed them, and you’re always within your rights to distance yourself from someone who seems manipulative or opportunistic in their dealings with people. But before making contact with her, I’d sit with why you feel this way about her, and then trust your gut. You’re allowed to just say “no” without following through on investigating your copycat hunch.

    1. Artemesia*

      I have had people do this. I don’t think it is happenstance or unlikely to occur. In my case it culminated in a conference presentation where I saw this person use a model I had developed without attribution and then give a couple of personal anecdotes I use when illustrating the model before using the exercise I had developed with the group. I have also had people take my workshop handouts, erase my name and reprint them and use them in their own work without attribution. There are people like this and the OP may be working with one.

      You can confront them when it is clear and egregious but avoiding them if you can is also wise.

      1. Bossy*

        Yeah, I agree that it’s not “unlikely”. It can be on purpose or not. I even think some people try to do it without actually copying but then sometimes they can’t figure of how to get the differentiation right (probably wrong word). Particularly if they were so uncreative in the first place that they feel they have to copy people. Unfortunately, most people seem like they’d rather fit in than stand out and so they copy.

  40. waffles*

    LW#1 – Such an interesting part of this letter is that management is asking you for advice! Are they asking y’all for advice because in an open-ended or amorphous way, kind of throwing the question into the void and hoping a solution will come up? Or is management creating a more structured opportunity for problem solving? Or is your manager just asking you as an individual because they really are out of ideas and thought you’d have a good one? I don’t think it’s your job as a non manager to figure this out. That feels terrible because it makes some people upset and of course children are waiting in a scary or potentially harmful situations longer than necessary. You can offer up any solutions that you want to of course, but you aren’t the manager, and figuring this out is part of their job.

    In the bigger picture, I disagree with all the commenters who are sticklers for policy and saying this person should get fired. Sometimes because of the nature of the job or the location you are working in, you don’t have the luxury of firing people who aren’t able to perform every aspect of the job, and you have to figure out how to work with what you have. Making this judgment also isn’t your role as a non-manager!

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      If you let one employee avoid an essential task that everyone finds burdensome and add this task to her coworkers load, then you may well lose some of them too.
      If I was one such coworker, then I’d be looking for a new job and likely also using her excuse to avoid the night calls while I did so – since it works for her to dodge this work without being sacked.

      So either transfer or fire this one employee not performing an essential task, or lose one or more employees who were previously performing all their tasks.

      1. waffles*

        This seems like a kneejerk disagreement on your part Vulcan. If the LW wanted to quit their job over this, they would have said so (but they didn’t). In fact, they seemed to say the opposite – that this coworker is pretty great otherwise, and they didn’t mention wanting to leave their job over this issue at all. The manager who asked LW also didn’t say – should we fire this person? So I’m taking them at their word that firing this person isn’t the solution they are hoping to hear from all of us.

        If an employee’s priority is not picking up additional slack, then understanding the timelines/likelihood of hiring a replacement is pretty important when you are being asked for your opinion. Your assumption seems to be that if they fire this person, it’ll be no time at all before a new person is hired who will be a better option than the current colleague who is struggling with this aspect of the job. Like many others who work in social services have said, that’s not necessarily true, and isn’t a safe bet to make if your main concern is not taking on other people’s work. If you don’t want to take on other people’s work, then in fact you probably agree with me that because the LW is not this person’s manager, they should give a few solutions and then not worry about it, because it’s not their job (as far as I can tell).

        1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          I’m just stating how I would react if required to pick up extra nights on-call because a coworker – paid to do this – wasn’t doing part of her job. I would be more likely to quit over this than if I were required to do extra calls after she was fired. For me, it’s about fairness. Don’t let one person skive the worst bit of the job.

          The OP doesn’t plan to quit her job over extra shifts but we don’t know if all her coworkers are so understanding – and from the OP it sounds like the on-call guys in the neighbouring office are on their last nerve over this, so some of them may quit.

          1. judyjudyjudy*

            @waffles, the LW has already stated that the resentment described by Retired Vulcan is building. This is not a theoretical scenario.

            Also, you offered no specific positive steps. You stated what shouldn’t happen — that Rip Van Winkle shouldn’t be fired. Just “work with what you have.” Anything more concrete?

  41. Productivity Pigeon*

    LW#1:

    It’s hard to give advice without knowing what your coworker herself has said.
    She’s obviously given some kind of explanation but not knowing what it is, it’s difficult to brainstorm solutions.

    Surely she herself must’ve considered louder alarms and things like that?

  42. HannahS*

    OP1, I used to be a very deep sleeper (like, slept through people banging on my door and shouting my name, slept through air raid sirens, slept through fire alarms, slept through earthquakes.)

    Ultimately it changed with time for me, but at the time, for mornings I used a combination of a light alarm and something called “The Sonic Bomb” which is extremely loud. Of that hadn’t worked, I’d have tried a vibrating bracelet, the kind that is used by Deaf/hard of hearing people. The challenge there is hooking it up to the phone, which I’m not sure how to do.

    When I started doing on-call shifts as a medical student, I was terrified of missing pages; similarly the professional consequences are serious. I never, ever did, which I attribute to a high level of anxiety, the worst bed imaginable, and leaving the lights on.

    My shifts were in person, but for your colleague I’d recommend trying to go to sleep at her usual hour, leaving the lights on, and not sleeping in bed.

  43. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    For #2 I think the OP should also talk with Jane’s manager, especially if this continues after the first conversation.

    1. Coffee Protein Drink*

      In some organizations, it’s standard practice to talk to your own manager and let them talk to the third party’s manager. I know if I went to someone else’s manager (unless my manager said to), I would get a stern talking to.

      1. TPS Reporter*

        OP is the grandboss of Jane so can certainly go to them directly. Jane just may be spiraling and not realizing their impact. I would definitely try first directly then through Jane’s direct manager next.

  44. StayAwake*

    Is the on call schedule such that you don’t have to do it multiple nights in a row? If so, the only solution might be staying up all night on those nights. That wouldn’t be workable multiple nights in a row, but for a single night it should be viable for most people, and also likely would result in less overall disruption than being woken up at the wrong time in the sleep cycle.

  45. CWW*

    Child welfare workers! It’s the first time the field we’re in has been wildly misunderstood by the AAM community! It’s like we’ve arrived!

    (In all seriousness, I’ve never had the inside dope on an industry discussed in the comments and now I feel like I am in the loop!)

    1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      I would very much like to hear your take on this question, for what it’s worth!

      1. CWW*

        I’ve never been in management, but my strong sense is that this worker needs to be moved to as similar a position as possible (ideally in the same pay band) and unfortunately, another worker will end up getting voluntold to be in this worker’s current position and deal with this position’s on call. It will suck for the worker being voluntold, it will suck for the worker being moved, it will suck for the team. It sucks any way it’s sliced.

        If it’s anything like in my area, hiring freezes make firing this person much much much worse for all involved as they will never be replaced (or not replaced until years down the road). I’m not sure how licensing/non licensing would factor into this – in my area there are only a couple of cw positions requiring a LBSW or LMSW and it’s easier to move folks around – but losing a worker is a terrible option and removing them from on call is a terrible option.

        This entire field is just a shit buffet of terrible options and there’s a reason the average NFL career is longer than the average cw career. We all lose sleep on this stuff. As I was reading the letter I was saying OH NOOOOO out loud because it really is such a perfect example of one of the. plagues of this field – someone who is great at their job who really cannot do one very important part of it and it would be a travesty to fire them and also none of the other options are good.

        One of the things I would do if I were in charge of cw is (magical thinking) create positions exclusively for night and on call. And I would get the magical money for this from the magical money tree from the magical legislature who magically wants all problems in the agency magically solved by magic and also simultaneously wants to enforce a hiring freeze including backfilling positions becoming vacant by folks leaving when how untenable this all is becomes apparent.

        Night and on call are (generalizations incoming) the hardest for the folks most likely to be in this field (younger women, single moms) due to caregiving responsibilities. They disproportionately push older workers and workers with disabilities out because they can succeed in all other aspects but night and on call often becomes the stress that puts them on mental health related FMLA. My heart goes out to all involved – the worker who can’t wake up, the team who has to deal with it, the management choosing from a shit buffet of shit options, and the kids who are so so so so so underserved and retraumatized.

    2. Hroethvitnir*

      Haha – I’m not in child welfare but have a medical background/this is the kind of work I *could* have ended up in (/I have been on the receiving end of these services), and the intense lack of understanding on display here is blowing my mind.

      Alison was great, as usual.

  46. Sleeping Neighbor*

    Re #1: a lot of commenters are suggesting alarms with aggressively loud and jarring sounds as part of the solution. While I don’t have an a better answer, I do live in a small apartment with thin walls, and if the tenant next to me got something like this and it started going off at 3AM it would not be ok. I just felt like someone needed to respectfully point out this out :)

    2. Orv*

      I used to sleep with my phone under my pillow so I’d hear it vibrate, but I can’t really recommend that because it traps all the heat from charging and seems like a fire hazard.

    3. Coverage Associate*

      There are headphones designed to wear while falling asleep and sleeping. I assume that if they can play music, sounds, stories from a phone via Bluetooth, then they can be set up to play the phone’s ringtone as well. This should be part of any louder cell phone ringer solutions.

  47. OfficePolitics*

    #3 I live in the bluest of blue states (Massachusetts) and it is still not normal to talk politics at work here. This is not normal. That doesn’t help you, of course.

    I actually have worked in one environment similar to yours. I was a fully remote employee of a company based in San Francisco for almost a year in 2017-2018 (one that also had an office in Raleigh, NC) and people constantly made disparaging comments about the then current administration. I found it shocking. It was the accepted company culture, though, and it was clear that any comments about it would result in the online equivalent of confused stares. I noticed no one from NC participated. If asked directly, we deflected back to working we didn’t want to participate. But there was no avoiding chatter from everyone else.

    Wearing a political button would be a signal that you want to engage. So, just don’t engage. If that’s not enough for you or you find it too difficult, thus may not be the right company for you.

    1. TPS Reporter*

      also in MA and in an environment where most people would identify as liberal but also not super interested in talking politics. Maybe because we’re all just busy and mostly working from home. We also however have about 30% remote workforce outside of New England so I try not to assume politics and never initiate a political conversation. It’s such a touchy subject, like many other things I don’t want to talk about at work.

    2. K in Boston*

      IMHO state + industry seem to be the combination that increases the likelihood of certain political conversation being seen as “normal.” I work for a healthcare organization in MA (as you can guess from my username) and I also work for one in AZ.

      In MA, I find there are topics that seem to be viewed as political but in a “it’s sad this is viewed as political, isn’t it?” kind of way — vaccinations, gender-affirming care, etc. You can’t really avoid talking about those things in a hospital, but even so, our organization has received bomb threats from politically motivated entities for providing such services.

      Whereas in AZ, we just don’t really talk a lot about any of that at all. It just is what it is.

      1. ContextAndContent*

        These are not inherently political topics? And they’re still not generally discussed in non-medical offices.

        I work for a health data non-profit. We have data-driven discussions around health equity in the direct course of our work, but we don’t discuss the politics around it except in the context of regulatory requirements. Vaccines, gender identity, maternal health disparities, etc come up at times, but not in political contexts. It’s all related to the work we do and the availability of underlying data – how people use the data is up to them.

        Yes, the external threats piece is a complicating issue. Other people are being political around you and there’s some conversation about the consequences of that. I wouldn’t classify that as political conversation any more than I’d classify discussing vaccines in a medical setting political.

        1. K in Boston*

          They are not inherently political topics, you are correct. I suppose part of what I was getting at is not only what’s considered normal, but what’s considered political: I actually don’t think much about potential political context when I talk about these topics at my AZ job, where, for example, gender-affirming care for minors is illegal, and therefore conversation tends to be more theoretical and is much easier to keep clinically focused.

          In MA, where these services are legal, however, there are very real-world consequences to my colleagues who actually provide and promote these services, and I think it does a disservice to them to pretend that no one will regard these as political. We’ve been able to take better safety measures for both staff and patients by acknowledging the political context that others have assigned to these services.

          (And I agree they are not generally discussed in non-medical areas, which was what I was trying to convey by saying state + industry probably changes the equation as to what’s considered normal conversation, but it seems I wasn’t very successful in communicating that.)

          Anyway, this is getting a lot more specific than I meant for it to, and now many more steps removed from the original letter than I intended! I was more trying to make an observation that state and industry probably affect what’s considered normal political conversation.

          1. K in Boston*

            *…at my AZ job, where CERTAIN gender-affirming care for minors is illegal — my apologies, didn’t mean to insinuate that AZ has straight-up banned all gender-affirming care for minors.

      2. Nancy*

        Those aren’t political topics just because some people want to make them political. I work in healthcare and never think any of those topics as “political conversations.”

        1. K in Boston*

          To clarify, I don’t think they’re inherently political. But I consider it a disservice to my colleagues to act like there are no potential politically motivated consequences to these conversations. It doesn’t mean we don’t have the conversations, but when we acknowledge these other aspects, we can plan for better security measures and suggestions to keep ourselves safe, as we’ve had to do multiple times before.

          It’s great that you don’t think of them as political. I’m truly glad you don’t have to think that they might be viewed as political in order to feel safe in your workplace. But there are times it would have absolutely increased the potential for harm to my colleagues and myself if we’d assumed that everyone thought like you do.

          1. Nancy*

            Got it. I was thinking more in the context of work-related discussions with coworkers, not dealing outside people. I work in the same MA city as you and know which hospitals have received threats; I’m sorry you had to deal with that.

  48. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #2 Talk to Jane’s manager as a priority, to get her to stop this bullying, since this is what it is. Say you don’t want to embarass Jane in public, but that you will if this continues.

    If Jane does continue despite this, or her manager does nothing, then since your intern is being publicy embarassed, your support and reassurance for her also needs to be public.
    As soon as you hear Jane criticising your intern:

    “Jane, Mary is my intern and she is doing a good job of learning our field. I am pleased with her performance and will correct any minor mistakes in private. Please do not interfere with my management of her again.”

    It’s usually the least competent people who do this kind of bullying.
    Jane is kicking down in public because an intern is the only person who – for now – is less capable than she is. Stopping her in public will make her realise she will no longer be able to get her reward of a public ego trip.

    1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I really like this script. Very much. I’ve managed interns myself and they are there, in part, to learn what are and are not acceptable office behaviors.

  49. Throwaway Account*

    re #2, Alison (and everyone), would you also add to the advice something about how the intern can manage a future office/coworker who does things like Jane is doing (calling her mistakes out in public)?

    Shouldn’t the intern learn how to manage stuff like this in addition to learning the skills of the job? But I don’t know if I would tell the intern to go to their own manager first (to ask for advice on managing a coworker like Jane or ignore it?), go to the coworker first (to shut it down, then to the manager if it does not stop), etc. It can depend on every office!

  50. MakingBiscuits*

    Regarding #1 and the worker’s inability to cover late-night on-calls? If there are no reasonable technical solutions that would work, have you explored seeing whether any other employees would voluntarily cover all of her shifts for (for example) an extra $2,000 per year?

    Then if they are amenable, reduce the first worker’s salary by that $2,000, give it to the worker who will cover her shifts, and the problem is addressed. There are likely quite a few people who would take on several extra late-night on-calls for some amount of money, and the heavy sleeper could still continue with the other parts of her job without negatively impacting anyone else.

  51. A Book about Metals*

    It doesn’t sound like the employee in #1 has tried anything different yet, or at least it’s not mentioned here.

    Could they try some of these suggestions with different alarms etc. and maybe test it out on a night when they’re not on call?

  52. Lady Lessa*

    Honest question LW1. If you do decide that they are not working out and let them go, Isn’t that going to increase the number of on-call shifts for the rest of the team? Especially if the position is hard to fill.

    Seems like being between a rock and a hard place

  53. Pay no attention...*

    #5 “She’s also an up-and-coming speaker and I’m wary that she will use my anecdotes” Are these anecdotes that she would have a connection to… like something that happened to her as well as you — a project she also worked on, a group she also belongs to? If so, you don’t really own the experience, but if you are in a mentoring position over this person, you suggest helping her develop her own speaking style. If, however, she’s just using your anecdotes as though she experienced it but she doesn’t have any personal connection, then you could point out that plagiarism will likely be caught and would hurt her reputation. The importance and power of anecdotes is the personal and genuine connection.

    1. Artemesia*

      You apparently haven’t worked with a vampire like this. It is really irritating when you develop materials for speeches and workshops and such and people literally lift them, erase your name and use them as if they had created them.

  54. WhyAreThereSoManyBadManagers*

    The number of posters in the comments saying they’ve slept through multiple fire alarms – that’s terrifying. If you sleep deeply though to not hear a fire or CO alarm going off, that should be interpreted as a potential life threatening issue. Or what if someone breaks into the house, or if another family is having a medical emergency & yelling for help? Seems those who sleep through fire alarms may need to see a sleep doctor to prevent a future tragedy. (Also, as a lifelong suer light sleeper who wakes up at the drop of a hat, I wish I had the ability to sleep through barking neighbor dogs, early morning lawnmowers, etc)

    1. Expectations*

      Sleep doctors don’t actually solve this problem, and most of them don’t see it as a major issue. They are mostly concerned with solving “cannot sleep” or “cannot breathe while sleeping” issues.

    2. RagingADHD*

      The solution to barking dogs or early lawncare is earplugs. There are a variety that muffle certain ranges of sound without blocking out everything close by.

    3. Coverage Associate*

      I wonder if any of the people sleeping through safety alarms slept all the way through, or just slept longer than others in the house. Because sometimes it’s a matter of waking up immediately or waking up after a longer period of time (like 15 seconds or 120 seconds), and while maybe ideally people wake up immediately to emergency alarms, there’s not a concerning safety difference between waking up in 15 versus 120 seconds, not one worth treating anyway.

      I know we have the story about the kid who slept through the car in the living room, but I know less about the normal range of kid sleep patterns.

  55. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

    Considering that management is making the oversleeping the problem of other employees, I can all but guarantee that their “solution” is going to be making other people cover extra on-call shifts. It will get framed as a department-wide responsibility, and suddenly over-sleeping employee is only one of ten people who “could have do the job but didn’t, and she has a good excuse!” Ask me how I know.

  56. too many dogs*

    For LW #3: I work with the general public at a government agency where we are FORBIDDEN to talk politics (or religion). To the public, and to coworkers, I just repeat, as pleasantly as possible, “I don’t talk politics, but what else would you like to talk about?” Since I end my statement with a question back to them, it is non-confrontational, and sometimes redirects them. And it sometimes gets me a fun answer, like, “Um…… I like camping” from one man. If they persist, just repeat it.

  57. Nancy*

    LW3: Don’t wear a political button if you don’t want people to talk to you about politics. I know who Cornel West is, but had know idea he was running. If I saw someone wearing his button at work, I’d assume they were trying to get people to ask about it so they could talk about his campaign.

    Just tell people you don’t want to talk politics.

  58. tabloidtained*

    LW1: At one point, my brother was such a deep sleeper that his alarm would go off for an hour at full volume before he woke up. And then he’d sometimes turn the alarm off still half asleep and not wake up at all. Have you talked to your employee about if/why she struggles to wake up and what things she’s tried already to make sure she doesn’t miss an emergency? Part of this is her responsibility.

    LW3: I think (and correct me if I’m wrong) that part of what’s bothering you is that people assume you’re pro-Harris and when they realize you’re not, they assume you’re pro-Trump. I completely sympathize, and I understand wanting to signal to people–especially the people who might care–where you actually stand, but I think that’s going to lead to more othering in our current political climate. You are well within your rights to directly ask people to tone down the political talk at work without first putting yourself in a position that makes you feel more isolated. Plus, you might be doing everyone a favor! I’d bet some of your coworkers are over the political talk too.

  59. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    One thing I think everyone is missing with letter 1 is that management has asked the workers for solutions to the problem of the coworker missing the calls. I don’t think it should be up to the employees to come up with solutions.
    Everyone is saying that they need to be fired or they need a medical accommodation, or they need to implement XYZ strategy. The thing is the OP is not in any position to do any of this. They can mention it but I doubt management is really going to do anything. Also, we don’t know what the coworker has tried or what they have told HR/Management because the OP is not privy to that info. It could be a medical issue but they aren’t going to broadcast that to the rest of the team.

  60. Orv*

    LW #1: Some people just aren’t capable of waking from a sound sleep and being alert, so even if you get this coworker to wake up, you may not be able to get anything useful out of her for a while. For example, if I wake my wife out of a deep sleep she’ll talk to me, but it’s gibberish because she’s actually still asleep.

    It’s possible there isn’t a solution and this just isn’t the job for her.

  61. Just Curious*

    I’ve read a lot of these suggestions and how this affects co-workers, etc.. What I’m not seeing, and I’m asking is, how does this affect the children that the call is initially made for? If I read correctly, these calls that are made in the middle of the night are for emergency child welfare situations. Does the fact that this employee miss the calls affect the children?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      It says in the letter that when a call is missed, “the on-call worker from a neighboring office has to get called in, which delays our response time significantly (and makes the other worker mad!).”

      So there are delays in the response time (takes time to call the original on-call worker, realize they aren’t going to pick up, then call the on-call worker from the other office, and there are probably longer travel times for the neighboring-office worker), but the child does (eventually) get the services they need.

  62. Heavy sleeper*

    For letter writer #1
    I am sorry I didn’t comment sooner. I had this issue when I was on call. I have a hard time falling asleep but am very good at staying asleep. Here are some literal solutions. You can go into accessibility features on the phone and set it to both flash and vibrate as well as ring. The ring is louder if put in a glass. I also have a vibrating alarm clock that someone who can’t hear would use. It was terribly embarrassing and I felt awful about missed calls. Depending on the environment we also started putting 2 people on call. At one point I would take weekends and just stay up (it ruined my weekend but solved the problem).

    It is unlikely if this person is otherwise good at work they are doing this on purpose. I know I was desperate to find a solution.

  63. Old Lady manager*

    LW1.
    I’m in IT so being on call is a thing. My questions are this.
    1. Is it just one call and the next call goes to the backup or is it 1 call and then another call 5 minutes later (like most places do it.) Then the next call to the backup? We discovered that the first call was brining folks out of deep sleep and the second was getting people up. We did this at last job because we had folks not even bothering going to sleep on their nights on call rotation to keep from missing a call. This led to zombies at work.
    2. When your folks are on call, are they paid a premium for being on call after hours? Do they get to have a late start or leave work earlier when it’s their time on call.? Just because something is needed and people put up with it (I.E. it’s part of the job.) doesn’t mean it has been executed well. Zombies at work = BAD = resentful, burned out employees regardless of how good the cause is. So the fix could be as simple as a second call 5 minutes later if the person doesn’t answer the first call or as complicated as having people volunteer to agree to cover parts of after hours on call versus a whole shift. Like one person grab from 8pm to midnight, another from midnight to 4am?

    1. judyjudyjudy*

      I don’t think there is such a thing as being paid a premium in social work, and I doubt the LW has the power to expand their budget in this way. Write to your congressmen, I guess.

  64. ijustworkhere*

    The job requires emergency night responses. The employer should make that clear and set a deadline for a remedy. The employer can provide some ideas of what might help the employee (like assistive devices) but until and unless the employee requests a medical accommodation, I don’ t think it’s the employer’s responsibility to provide those devices.

    If I were the employee, I would be concerned about my inability to wake up to a ringing phone and I would want to explore why in more detail.

    1. LJ*

      What? Sleeping through the average ringing phone in the depth of the night (especially after an otherwise exhausting day) seems like a perfectly normal human response. Now if they had already used some assistive devices to crank it up to the level of a fire alarm, then I’d agree with you

  65. Sound Sleeper*

    #1: I have hearing loss, and I use a Sonic Boom alarm that vibrates very forcefully and blares a noise from your phone that’s almost reminiscent of a fire alarm. There’s an app that goes with it that can be set so that the vibrations go off whenever you get a call. If sleeping through calls is the main issue, that might be something to look at.

  66. commensally*

    I’m surprised by the answer about political talk. In my workplaces it’s always been understood that political talk can be inherently disruptive to the workplace, and while it will happen, if it’s happening in a shared workspace where other people can’t get away from it, then people should stop as soon as they’re asked, with no repercussions. (I’ve done this a few times when discussions were happening that I didn’t mind, because I knew another coworker in the area was too upset to ask.) It has never been a problem, even in a politically intense period, and someone saying tiredly “Y’all I really can’t deal with politics when I’m trying to be on the clock” has never been a problem.

    If you’re not sure your coworkers will take that well, or it would be a major shift in the existing work culture, then go to your supervisor first and tell them that the current level of political discussions happening in work spaces is being disruptive for you, could people be asked to dial it back? You don’t even have to mention your own opinions on anything other than being constantly exposed to stressful non-work-related topics – it should be the same response as if your cubicle-mate wouldn’t stop going into detail about her cousin’s gory medical problems.

    1. Observer*

      If you’re not sure your coworkers will take that well, or it would be a major shift in the existing work culture, then go to your supervisor first and tell them that the current level of political discussions happening in work spaces is being disruptive for you, could people be asked to dial it back?

      That’s a really good way to “other” yourself, though.

      I agree that it’s better to not talk politics at work. But there are places where it’s common. Going to your supervisor to have the make everyone shift their behavior to accommodate you is not a good way to get what you want. It’s one thing to ask for an accommodation that is life and death – eg could we make sure that there are not peanut butter because someone is deathly allergic. But “I don’t like it”? Nope, not a good reason to expect everyone else to change their behavior.

      And “I think it’s not appropriate, and my opinion is the objectively correct one, and everyone else is wrong” is also not an winning thing to express.

      1. commensally*

        If going to your supervisor to express a work problem results in you being ”othered” that’s a supervisor problem. The supervisor should be responding by going to the staff and reminding them we all need to keep political talk off the working floor because it can be disruptive and othering, and you can’t know other staffers’ comfort level. Without bringing lw into it at all.

        Or they could respond by telling LW it’s an important part of company culture and won’t be changing, which is a useful thing for them to know.

        If they respond by telling everyone else that LW has a problem with them then LW needed to be job hunting already anyway to get away from them.

  67. kiki*

    For the deep sleeping employee, since it seems like they’re a great employee who is super responsive to other on-call requests and genuinely just having trouble being woken up in the dead of night, I think it would make sense for the workplace to offer to pay for a device to assist the LW in waking up. There are some devices that will amplify a cellphone ringtone and add some flashing on top of that. From researching, they can run $80-150 dollars, which is an amount that may be a blocker for an employee to pay but isn’t a huge expense for an organization. It’s certainly less expensive than having to hire again for the role!

  68. Kevin Sours*

    Sometimes the letter just answers itself. How do you tell the intern that Jane is wrong?
    “Jane is in the wrong, not you”

  69. Project Maniac-ger*

    #3 if LW is a plant for the West campaign, they did a great job. A lot of people in the comments have googled him lol!

    I would recommend saying the above scripts in a positive, breezy tone. Fair or not, saying “I don’t talk about politics at work” in a serious, annoyed, and/or scary tone can make people think you’re into weird stuff. Like “I got bullied at my last job for being a flat earther so now I NEVER talk about ANYTHING EVER.”

  70. Yolanda*

    I’m a case manager who works in adult welfare. Once a month, each case manager works a 24/7 on call shift from 5 PM Friday – 8 AM the following Friday. We get a fair amount of middle – of – the – night calls that we’re expected to wake up and answer.

    When I started this job, I lived in an apartment and struggled with toeing the line of needing to wear ear plugs in order to get any sleep (thanks, downstairs neighbors) but also needing to be able to wake up immediately if my phone rang. I got a cheap Bluetooth watch from Amazon that I connected to my work phone and wore during my on call nights; I found that the vibration of the watch really helped me wake up. I also sleep with my work phone in my bed, the ringer as loud as it can go, and I periodically change my ringtone because the novelty of the new ringtone sometimes helps me wake up. Our on call service also calls multiple times (at least 3) if we don’t answer on the first call. I no longer need the watch but would use it again in a heartbeat if I found myself struggling to wake up for middle of the night calls.

    Last month I had the on call week from hell (situations! every! night!) but after 4 years in this job, on call is a lot easier to deal with (and recover from) than it was when I started.

  71. HappyPenguin*

    My son sleeps like the dead, and always had trouble hearing his alarm. I bought him the Sonic Bomb alarm clock from Amazon, and…problem solved. It’s loud enough to wake the dead (and frankly terrifying!) and now he wakes up a minute or two before it goes off. He sets it as a backup to his phone alarm, which is typically enough to wake him now.

  72. HappyPenguin*

    Oops, disregard my Sonic Bomb alarm clock post earlier. Completely spaced that it’s not a wake up on time isssue, it’s a wake up unexpectedly issue… I think I need a nap

  73. Kate 2*

    I sleep so deeply, I have slept through fire alarms on multiple occasions. And some of them were the ultra loud built in ones they have in apartment buildings. However I do wake up when my alarm clock goes off. Obviously not waking up at fire alarms is NOT a choice I am making. I don’t want to burn in my bed. I just can’t seem to wake up before I expect to wake up or before eight hours have passed maybe.

    It’s possible this woman is doing everything she can and still can’t wake up.

  74. Texas Teacher*

    Multiple sleep disorders run in my family. Being very hard to wake up out of a deep sleep is common – along with us waking up explosively when woken from a deep sleep is a symptom. It is tied with sleep paralysis/night terrors in my family. *

    I would suggest smart bulbs in the bedroom light fixtures with an If This Then That program set up. When they are called the If This then that can also be triggered to flash the lights on and off in different colors. A word of caution make sure that no one in the home has a seizure disorder that could be triggered by flashing/strobing lights before implementing this. Also when first waking someone out of this type of deep sleep – sometimes their speech can be slurred. I sound very drunk if jolted awake – and i don’t drink.

    *If dealing with sleep paralysis/night terrors in kids I suggest my Dad’s explanation. Your brain makes it so you can’t move during a dream to protect you. Sometimes we wake up backwards, and the part of our brain that thinks and is aware wakes up before the part that moves our body. When that happens just pretend you are floating in gentle water and are relaxed and wait until the rest of your body wakes up. It really helped me. (Note I am part fish and water is my happy place switch it to the kid’s happy place.

  75. T*

    LW1, I’ve worked in tech with weeklong on-call rotations. For that, if someone couldn’t find a way to wake up, there would be no reasonable way to accommodate them. Your shifts are much shorter; given that, would there be anyone else in the rotation who would be interested in switching with this one person? So one of them takes two evenings every 10 days, and the other one takes two late nights. I have a feeling there’s someone who would rather have their evenings back and take the chance on the less-often late night calls. For a single person who wants to have a social life, or someone with a coparent and kids who doesn’t want evening routine disrupted but can safely leave in the middle of the night, that arrangement could be ideal. That way this one worker isn’t getting an exemption and making others pick up the slack, but they also get to avoid the problem.

  76. Need To Know*

    I suspect that #3 is a pot stirrer. Wearing a Cornel West button would have everyone talking politics at them, even those who are not all that political because he is considered to be a radical by most people.

    He wants the US out if NATO and to end support for Ukraine and Israel and to close most military bases. He supported Jill Stein in 2016. He also wants a Covid 19 Truth Commission established.

Comments are closed.