employee wants us to pay for Ubers when they work late, does using a computer in meetings make me look bad, and more

by Alison Green on September 23, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Employee wants us to pay for an Uber when they have to work late

A member of our team does not have a car and uses the bus for transportation. The role has occasional evening work (2-4 times a year), and the bus they take stops running in the early evening. Is it reasonable for them to request reimbursement for an Uber home in these situations? I feel like I’m being unreasonable if I say no, but we don’t reimburse gas/mileage for people who drive to work. Isn’t this an expense they have assumed by not having a car?

Eh. If the job frequently required working past the time public transportation was running, then yes, this would be an expense they assumed by not having a car. But expecting someone to have a car because they have to work late 2-4 times a year isn’t reasonable or realistic. You’re not obligated to cover the cost of an Uber home, but I would. It’s worth the relatively small expense to have an employee feel you’re taking care of them when they’re going above and beyond for you, and to not feel resentful that they lose money by meeting the needs of their job on those days.

Obviously the flip side of this is what to say if an employee with a car complains their own travel expenses aren’t covered on those days. You can point out that their commute expenses aren’t any different on those days than on others, but if they’re ever in a situation where that changes (like their car is in the shop when they need to work late), you’ll cover it for them as well. If that ever becomes so burdensome as to be unrealistic, you can revisit it then, but it probably won’t.

2. My coworker jumps to answer the phone, then complains about it

At work we have a system for the phones: It rings twice to the secretary, then everyone’s phone rings until someone picks it up. We’re all supposed to take turns answering the phone when the receptionist is out, and she only works half days so that’s pretty frequent.

I have a coworker who is unnaturally fast at answering the phone; sometimes she gets it before the first ring has even stopped. She is almost always the first person to answer it, and then she complains constantly about being the only person who answers the phone. I mean, seriously every time I talk to her, she’s mad about the phones. I’ve tried explaining that if she lets it ring longer, the rest of us will have a chance to help, but because she answers it so fast no one else can touch it. Then she’ll go on a long tangent about being happy to help, and it’s fine, but she just wants everyone else to help with the phones too.

I don’t how to explain to her that she’s not giving people the chance to help her. She’s mad about a problem she created and won’t take advice on solutions, but she does want to complain. Is there anything I can do to help her see the obvious solutions? Are there solutions or something else I’m missing here?

If you’ve already tried explaining it, probably not — she’s getting something out of martyring herself over this. But you can certainly try saying, “Would you please do me a favor? Would you spend one week not answering until the third ring? I can almost guarantee you that other people will jump in and handle it, and you won’t be upset anymore.” If she refuses to try that and continues complaining, then you can respond with, “Well, you know the solution, so if you want it to change, that’s what you should try.” Feel to also ask point-blank, “Why don’t you?”

3. Does using a computer in meetings make me look bad?

A mentor/consultant I’ve been working with said something to me this week that has me slightly boggled: that if I use a laptop to take notes during meetings, I’ll be seen as a “secretary” (her word). I know there are many old, tired tropes about admin workers, and I’m not trying to promote them, but I also want to be realistic and aware of how I might come across to more senior colleagues or other outside stakeholders whose impressions might matter.

For context, I’m a mid-30s woman (but I often look/dress on the younger side day to day, no makeup), working in a creative-ish role in a non-creative industry (which can come with its own perception issues — though I’m working on telegraphing “organized” vs. “bursting with ideas” in meetings/presentations). We have a fairly casual-dress office and I have generally positive relationships with my colleagues, but there are one or two senior staff who don’t seem to view me/my role with as much professional respect as I’d like to develop, so the nuance is part of what I’m considering important.

The comment was made 100% as helpful advice from a really experienced consultant whose read on things has so far been pretty spot-on, who has a strong understanding of our local community, and who seems to be really attuned to politics/vibes of how things look and how to work with that reality. I trust her.

AND I can’t help but wonder if this is really true!?!? I have colleagues who use computers in meetings 100% of the time and seem to telegraph “I am a productive and maybe nerdy multitasker” and not “I’m the note-taker,” but they’re male and tech-adjacent, and I know the standards are not the same, even subconsciously.

But I really rely on being able to take notes, especially during long meetings, and I’m worried that trying to avoid them will just result in me being less organized and missing stuff. I’m not always able to jot down notes right after a meeting.

How much weight should I put on this advice? Is there a difference between an open laptop vs. a notebook vs. a small notepad vs. a digital tablet? If I’m able to jot down clue words without looking down much, is that an okay compromise? How do other people just remember stuff without any help?!

In most offices this would be a complete non-issue. But because the advice is coming from someone who’s highly attuned to your particular culture and whose read has been spot-on so far, I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand.

I’m a huge note-taker and can’t imagine retaining everything I need to retain from most meetings without taking notes, and I’m a lot faster on a laptop than I am with pen and paper. There’s no practical way to give that up, nor would I advise it. Whatever people might think about note-taking, it’s far worse for your reputation if you forget things that pertain to you.

However, I do think it matters what your note-taking is like. If you’re keeping up a fairly constant stream of typing throughout the meeting, that’s a lot more likely to land in people’s brains as “taking minutes,” whereas if you’re just occasionally jotting down things that relate to you, it shouldn’t.

4. When side conversations interrupt a guest of honor

What is the etiquette around work conversations when employees are gathered to celebrate an individual (think retirement, moving away, getting married, etc.)?

Our VP attends these luncheons and frequently starts talking business with a few of the other attendees. In the meantime, we’re supposed to be sharing stories about the guest of honor, or at least listening to what they may have to say. Today, we had a lunch gathering for an employee who is getting married, and at the request of the party organizer, most of the people in the office submitted marital advice for him to share with his fiancé. As he was trying to read the submissions to the group, our VP was entrenched in a work-based conversation with another employee, and I had to politely ask them both to listen to the guest of honor. Is there a better way to manage this, or is it par for the course when work colleagues get together?

It’s very common for work to get discussed at office social gatherings, but your VP was being rude in doing it in that particular moment, when the guest of honor had the floor. The VP could benefit from reading the discussion on last week’s post about being a gracious leader!

When this happens, can you first try saying something like, “Can I have everyone’s attention up here on our guest of honor?” If that doesn’t solve it, be more direct: “Bob, Celeste, would you mind pausing that conversation so we can hear Falcon?” (That said, this assumes that the internal politics on your team allow you to call it out directly. Usually, with an event like this, you’ll be able to. But if you’re dealing with a higher-up who will take poorly to that, then all you can really do is let him demonstrate to the other attendees what a boor he is.)

5. Are there any limits on “other duties as assigned”?

I work at a state agency and am struggling with being assigned (voluntold) duties that are outside the scope of the position. How far can an employer claim “other duties as assigned” when they have nothing to do with the job description or my profession? I have requested a raise, promotion, and an additional employee to take on the extra workload. All have been denied.

About these additional duties: Employee 1 was fired and their responsibilities fell in my lap. Employee 2 was retiring soon so 40% of their workload was assigned to me. After that, their replacement refused to take back this part of their job. To quell any unrest, the 40% was permanently assigned to me. These changes occurred nine years ago. I’ve stuck with this job for the excellent benefits package and this is my last stop in my working career.

I am two years from full retirement and five months from being eligible for the state retirement program. It’s obvious to me that upper management is unwilling to adjust my pay equal to my responsibilities due to my possible retirement in the next two years.

I’ve complained to my supervisor, and he understands my plight but says his hands are tied. Is there legal standing protecting the employer with “other duties as assigned” clause in the job description?

There’s no law that defines “other duties as assigned” or limits the responsibilities an employer can ask you to take on, even if the work is wildly outside of your job description. However, if you have a union, you might have a contract that limits it, so definitely check there if they exist. Otherwise, though, an employer can make your job pretty much anything they want.

In this case, you’re especially unlikely to get any traction because it’s been nine years. The time to push back was in year one — ideally then you would have taken advantage of your employer’s desire to “quell any unrest” and been the person generating that unrest who they wanted to appease (instead of ceding that ground to the new hire who was allowed to refuse to take the work back). But at this point, when the new responsibilities have been part of your job for nearly a decade, the chances of them agreeing this isn’t your job are much lower — and even more so if they’re calculating that you won’t leave over it because you’re so close to retirement.

That said, you could certainly approach this the way you would any overwhelming workload (“I can do X, Y, or Z but not all three — what do you want me to prioritize?”).

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  1. My oh my*

    I had a coworker like #2. She wanted everyone to work at the same speed as her (which was too fast, she was sloppy), but then complained that she had to do everything when she got to things before we had a chance to do them. Super annoying, she was really bossy too.

    1. allathian*

      Yeah, that would be annoying.

      That said, in this case it only seems to apply to phones ringing. I’m glad I don’t work there, because I suspect I’d be a lot like this employee in answering the phones fast, not complaining about it! My reason is that I hate the sound of a ringing phone. The actual sound the phone makes doesn’t even matter, I have the same reaction to a phone in my pocket or on my desk on vibrate in that I have to drop everything else and answer it, or if it’s an unknown number, to reject the call and send it to voicemail. If I force myself not to answer, I feel like I’m halfway to a panic attack. It’s really weird.

      1. Allonge*

        To be honest, while coworker’s reaction is not awesome, the system setup is also not great. People have different reaction times and levels of tolerance for the phone ringing – the ‘someone will pick it up’ setup would be also annoying for me.

        Which is not to say coworker is right to complain, but ‘we are supposed to take turns’ is far from being an ideal solution. I would rather have a schedule for the afternoons, where on e. g. Tuesdays I am the primary and Wakeen can take the calls if I am not there, instead of everyone being responsible. When something is everyone’s job, it very often causes issues.

        1. Archi-detect*

          yeah that could work but you’d have to ring every phone regardless unless you wanted to have to shift it every time the designated person is in a meeting or the bathroom, and then have a designated second person to reroute to in that situation, with a second backup lol

            1. Nodramalama*

              Well that defeats the point which is that there’s coverage when someone steps away. It’s basically just call pick-up, it works fairly seamlessly unless there’s a person who answers on the first ring every time

              1. Allonge*

                I have never known anything where ‘it’s everyone’s job’ to work seamlessly.

                But in any case this is getting a bit far from being relevant to OP, so I will leave it here.

            2. Ma Bell*

              The real issue here is that this company stupidly has no one to answer phones full time, and it is distracting for the other staff to be playing receptionist.

              The worker who answers the phone quickly undoubtedly finds the cacophony of ringing phones distracting.

              1. Michelle Smith*

                Yeah, this is an issue. I worked in admin at the start of my career and was the designated backup person for the receptionist and that worked pretty well. Any time she was on lunch break or otherwise out of office, I sat at her desk and answered the phone. The rest of the time, the phone rang at my desk in my own office upstairs if she didn’t pick up within a couple of rings. It also had voicemail capability for the occasional times she was away from her desk and I had to go to the bathroom or something. Having one person designated to do this whose job/responsibility it was I think made it easier on the rest of the admin staff. They still had the capability to answer the line on their phones, but it wasn’t ringing in their offices so if there was any annoyance, it was minimized. Maybe a policy change could be suggested, if there’s an employee that would make sense to be the primary backup all the time.

              2. Observer*

                The real issue here is that this company stupidly has no one to answer phones full time, and it is distracting for the other staff to be playing receptionist.

                This was my first thought, as well.

                LW, does your company have an “auto-attendant” on your system? As in, when someone calls the system picks up and people can dial people’s extensions directly or get a directory, and the only if they either choose the “Operator” option or don’t press anything it goes to the receptionist? That won’t solve the problem with your coworker, but it could really cut down the number of calls that people need to pick up and then forward on.

                If you don’t have this set up, I would really suggest that to your management if there is someone reasonable to talk to.

                1. Elizabeth West*

                  This could be a good solution. Most hard phone systems (as opposed to Teams, etc.) have a “night ring” setting you can turn on outside business hours, or if someone has to leave the desk. So it shouldn’t be a problem if the office has a physical phone and they’re okay with having it go to an auto-attendant while the receptionist is away (or if they don’t have one).

              3. Sparkle Llama*

                I had a very similar experience where there used to be all day reception coverage and if reception didn’t pick up it went to the all ring. But we no longer had all day reception so it was all ring at least half the time. I did not pick up until the third or forth ring at the earliest but probably took 75% of the calls. It was especially bad since most of the office took Friday afternoons off and that was a popular time to ask recreation related questions that me and the other lowly hourly workers could not answer.

                Anyways, I sent the org head a calendar invite for four months out saying I would stop answering all ring then and lo and behold we were able to use a phone tree! Worked great!

            3. Observer*

              That generally won’t work well. Having the phone forward after it hasn’t picked up after x number of rings means that a lot of people are going to hang up by the time someone picks up.

              The setup is absolutely problematic, I agree. But this is unfortunately not the solution.

        2. Cat Tree*

          I’m guessing this setup was implemented while they still had a full-time receptionist so it was a rare thing. Then at some point the receptionist position became part-time and they didn’t revisit this system. It’s not a great a system for a general process (rather than an occasional contingency).

          1. allathian*

            Indeed. I wouldn’t worry too much if this happened for 30 minutes to an hour per day while the FT receptionist had their lunch break, but phones ringing half days? I would find it so hard to focus on my actual job.

            That said, the person who always answers on the first ring really has no reason to complain that she’s the only one answering the phone when the receptionist isn’t there. The complaints really seem very out of touch here.

          2. LL*

            Yeah, that’s my guess. I was in an admin role in my first office job and we had a full-time receptionist with the back-up ring to several of us in low-level admin roles. It sucked sometimes, but since the receptionist was there full-time it was nowhere near as annoying as this setup would be.

        3. Trout 'Waver*

          100% agree. This set-up is a recipe for resentment. Assign coverage on a daily basis. Diffuse responsibility is no responsibility.

          I’m like the coworker here. A ringing phone takes me out of my current task. Might as well answer it at that point since I’m already distracted. And yes I would be grumpy about it. I wouldn’t complain to my coworkers, but I’d definitely be miffed.

        4. Learn ALL the things*

          I had a job where we were open on weekends, but call center staff were only scheduled on week days, so we had to answer the phones ourselves on Saturday and Sunday, and this is exactly what we did. One person would be scheduled for Saturday from 10-12, another person from 12-2 and so on. That way, everybody knows who’s responsible for answering.

        5. Lenora Rose*

          I think you can SAY this is the schedule for preference and still have it ring on all lines. Then if Super-fast-Coworker picks up the phone anyhow, you can definitely tell her, “It wasn’t your job.”

          We have an open office and a lot of people who can cover each other for basic calls. Each line has an “official” alternative and second alternative it will bounce to, but it’s also the work of a moment to look up, see Susan isn’t at her desk/is on a call and her alternate Michael is at the door taking a delivery, then grab the line from my own phone. But I know when I do I’m taking it on voluntarily, and skipping the amount of ringing it would take to get to Joy, the official second alternate.

      2. Aardvark*

        It is not just you.
        One phone and I am ok. But a supermarket near me recently installed self serve registers and the error sound to alert an employee is a phone ringing. The first time I went in I almost dumped my trolley and left I got so anxious. it was like being in a haunted call centre. I now mostly go to the next closest store as they have yet to install self check out.

    2. owen*

      i think the other important piece for #2 if the coworker agrees to implement Alison’s advice and try not answering the phones, is to also tell your officemates that speedy coworker will not be answering immediately and to please pick it up.

      because the other thing she’s done by this point is to train the rest of the office that she will pick up the phone.

  2. Person from the Resume*

    LW5, after 9 years of doing tasks, they are your job.

    I guess maybe they’re still not in your job description. What happens if you stop doing them? But after 9 years, they are your part of your job and you stopping could cause punishment for you. On the other hand it sounds like they don’t like unrest/trouble. If you cause some, will they assign it to someone else to get you to stop causing trouble?

    1. DJ Abbott*

      Yes, I would not stop doing any part of the job. They could use it as an excuse to fire you before you’re vested in your retirement plan.

      1. Alan*

        They should have been vested *way* before retirement age. That would be odd. And “excuse to fire you” someone that age is spelled “reason for litigation”. Seriously.

        2. Bruce*

          Did not happen to me, but I’ve seen relatives lose their long time job shortly before they were “eligible” for retirement. “Just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you” is the saying that comes to mind…

        3. DJ Abbott*

          Apologies if vested was the wrong word.
          We’ve all heard about people getting fired just before retirement, in a way that means they can’t get their pension. Organizations can and will do this. In OP’s place, I wouldn’t risk it.

        4. Reluctant Mezzo*

          Good luck with that. When the Court bounced the K-Mart case, there went any enforcement of laws about ageism.

      2. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        Note: being vested and being eligible for retirement are two different things. Vested means you’re entitled to it at some point and they can’t take it back/forfeit it. It would be very surprising if this LW isn’t vested in her pension, but when she is able to take it is another question.

        1. Alan*

          Re vested vs eligible, as a recent retiree (still consulting part-time) I find it really intriguing how many people don’t understand how retirement plans work. I got *no* education on the retirement plan when I started. It took me decades to realize how it worked. And after going through the retirement process with HR and talking to a number of almost-retired people, and having to explain what a 401k is to my employed, adult children, it seems pretty clear that even otherwise-educated people lack the understanding here to effectively plan. I could have made much better decisions earlier had I realized what I didn’t know.

    2. Overworked*

      You may get some traction by advocating for “cross training” and ensuring everyone in the department knows each others’ duties and can do the job so if something happens to one, things won’t get missed. Management usually likes that kind of thing. Then, people are not able to as easily push back that they don’t know how to do a job, don’t want to, etc.

      1. Mockingay*

        This is an excellent suggestion. Add justification: “to ensure continuity of the project,” “provide seamless customer/public service,” etc. Use buzzwords pertinent to your agency.

        I’m going to assume that since your retirement is looming, management is somewhat aware of your plans? In that case, you have further leverage for cross-training and slowly moving off some duties as part of a long-range transition plan. Document the how-to’s, decline new projects or tasks if you can to keep your load manageable so you can train and close out stuff, work with your boss to figure out who can pick up your work: new hire (replacement), spread the load among remaining staff, who among your coworkers is suited for which tasks, etc. You have a lot of experience to offer during the transition, so I think you can negotiate some workload relief.

      2. Kes*

        Yeah, I agree that 9 years later is too late to bring it up as the initial issue. Cross-training and/or burnout are the ways in which I would raise it, probably starting with being burnt out (at which point you can point out that this was originally 40% of someone else’s job that you’ve been doing on top of your own original role, and that over time this has taken a toll on you), and then bringing in the additional point that it would good for the business to have other people trained in this work as well anyway.

      3. OMG! Bees!*

        Yes, I like this idea! It has the best chance of seeming like helping out the agency instead of just trying to offload some work. Especially if one can bring up time off (eg a vacation) and what happens then.

        I’m sure a smart manager will also realize that once LW5 retires, they will have a hard time finding someone (likely 3 someones) to fill that role, so best to get a head start.

    3. HonorBox*

      I think I’d use the lack of definition in the job description (if that’s the case) and the upcoming retirement as leverage for at least a conversation. The business is going to have to hire someone to replace you. Are they planning to do so using your current job description or using one that includes the extra work you’ve been doing? I’d raise this with management, because I think it’ll be really difficult to advertise two and a half positions rolled into one. And/or they’re going to have someone come into the position and not realize the full scope of the roll, which will leave them with fairly regular turnover.

      1. Alan*

        They’re going to wait until the last possible minute then replace them with multiple people. I was once in a volunteer position where I was begging for help. Previously the job had been done by two people and it was just me. I was always told that no one else was available and I needed to suck it up. I quit and (no surprise) was eventually replaced by 3 people. They will find the people once their current abusee leaves.

      2. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        One more possible reason to discuss this with management is to ask one more time if a pay increase is at all possible. In some government jobs, the employee’s income for the last 6 months or so will affect what their pension is.

      3. Pescadero*

        Based on my experience in academia (14 years, 7 more to go) – they will hire no one, and distribute her work to other overloaded staff whose job description it doesn’t fit.

      4. Kevin Sours*

        Part of the problem is that it isn’t a business “I work at a state agency”. Government positions are notorious for being underpaid and inflexible about things. And for the people in a position to fix things caring more about “keeping costs down” than actually having a functional organization.

    4. doreen*

      I retired from a state agency ( probably a different state) and the first thing I wondered is what does the LW mean by “outside the scope of the position”. If it means ‘ I am a teapot specialist and they have assigned me some of the tasks that should be done by a teapot specialist 2″ , the LW might have been able to do something when it first happened. Possibly even now , but it’s unlikely. But if the tasks are appropriate to the title, for example, if the LW is a clerk assigned to payroll and the additional work used to be done by clerks assigned to accounts payable and accounts receivable, that’s another story.

    5. doreen*

      LW are the tasks not appropriate to your title, or is it that you, Employee 1 and Employee 2 were all in the same title and were assigned different tasks , all of which are appropriate to your title ? Because if it’s the latter, there probably won’t be much you can do about the tasks themselves – you’ll have to deal with it as an “overwhelming workload”. If the tasks are not appropriate to your title, for example you are a clerk 1 and you are doing work that should be assigned to a clerk 2, you might be able to do something about it – I worked for a state agency and knew of a non-union manager who filed an “out-of-title” grievance and got back pay for the time he was covering for a vacancy in a higher title.

        1. doreen*

          Not necessarily. My last state job was in management and therefore not unionized (although most jobs were union). We could still file grievances and still had protections from that sort of firing under civil service law and even could even join an organization that would represent us – but it wasn’t a union because there was no negotiations of pay, benefits, working conditions etc)

  3. NurseThis*

    Re: #5…..I’ve been there and even with a union it’s pretty hard to dislodge an entrenched work load. Think asking a civil engineer to take over mopping the floors. What I did was laterally transfer to a different state agency which gave me enough time in to get my pension and certify my sick time (for use after retirement).

    Would that be an option? In my case they refused to stop dumping on me but could not prevent an interagency transfer.

  4. Jessen*

    #2 makes me think that grey rock techniques should be more widely taught in the workplace as well. If the complaining coworker gets the exact same advice repeated in a matter-of-fact manner every time she complains, it’s likely she’ll either change her behavior about the phone or stop complaining to OP. It’s at least a useful strategy if you don’t want to be a dumping ground for complaints that the complainer refuses to do anything about.

    1. Pam Adams*

      For #1, my university has a carpool program where people earn campus scrip for carpooling, using public transit or walking/biking to work. They provide a guaranteed ride home- usually Uber-as needed.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      I agree with this, because OP is engaging in a long, explanatory discussion when all they have to do is refuse to be convinced or to engage in the colleague’s violin playing. Especially as the facts are pretty easily stated: “It’s because you rush to pick up the phone before the first ring”, “Let someone else get the phone then”, “We’ve discussed this”, “I’m not sure how anyone else can get the phone if you make sure to pick it up first””.

      1. Anonym*

        These are good. OP, you’ve already explained to her, she’s not accepting or absorbing it. These brief responses should hopefully end the discussion and minimize your having to absorb her angst and unreasonableness. And if she actually finally listens to them, she’ll solve the problem!

    3. Richard Hershberger*

      Yup. The real issue here is that the coworker is a bore: “I have a problem that would be trivially easy to solve, but I refuse to do this. I will, however, complain about it.” That the problem is entirely of their own making is merely the icing.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I’ve heard that a good way to respond when someone complains about something is to say to the person, “Are you looking for advice or sympathy?” This might be a good response to the coworker, because it preempts the actual advice she keeps getting from coworkers when what it really seems like she wants is to complain and get sympathy. Obviously we know the answer is that she just wants sympathy but of course at work the usual MO is to respond to someone’s complaint with advice because at work we all want to fix the issue.

        I do agree with the advice in a previous thread that what really needs to happen is a change in the phone-answering policy.

        1. GlitterIsEverything*

          That question works well if you’re willing to provide both advice and sympathy. But if you’re only willing to provide advice, things get awkward fast.

          Coworker: Grumble, grumble, phones, grumble.
          You: Before you go any further, are you looking for advice or sympathy?
          Coworker: Sympathy.
          You: …

          Do you provide sympathy you weren’t really offering? Do you say “Oh, I really don’t have any for you in this situation, you did this up yourself.”? You can’t really extract yourself from the conversation smoothly.

    4. Learn ALL the things*

      I’d actually be tempted to turn it around on her. “Well, the rest of us would like to have a turn picking up calls too, but we can’t because you’re hogging them all and not being fair to us.”

      1. Arrietty*

        Her solution presumably is for everyone else to pick the phone up as fast as she does, or faster. Which isn’t within her control, so she complains.

    5. Generic Name*

      I’ve worked with a few of these types in the past. Some people just have a need to be/feel like a martyr and reject all reasonable/easy solutions to their stated issues. OP can pick a go-to phrase and just repeat it every time coworker starts complaining about the phones again. Ellis Bell has some good ones to pick from.

  5. Ann*

    LW2 this is sound advice (unfortunately).
    I now refuse to take lengthy notes in meetings because I was too often asked to send a summary or schedule follow-up meetings even by female senior leaders. When I inquired about the men on my team not getting their fair turn, the truth is no animous was intended, that I am just good at it and not a whiner. Another computer-note-taking issue is a lot of folks are multi-tasking on screens with emails, etc. which can be perceived as not paying attention especially in front of clients, the opposite of what you are doing. And I’ve also sat next to someone who typed the whole meeting and I couldn’t hear as well, not enough to complain, but your mentor’s intentions sound good.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      I was thinking that it’s important for the LW not to give her notes to anyone else, even if it’s useful and she takes beautiful notes. That will get her branded the note-taker, and it will be expected of her in a way it wouldn’t be for a man in the same job.

      1. ferrina*

        This is super important. If you share your notes, you automatically become the Unofficial Notetaker for Everyone.

        And don’t take/share notes on what they are supposed to do. If they say “Hey, do you remember what was said about [Thing That Doesn’t Directly Impact You], say ‘sorry, don’t recall'” Let them do their work without you.

    3. allathian*

      Yeah, but typing only what pertains to her should be fine. Maybe the LW should ask her mentor what they suggest she should do instead because it’s unrealistic to expect people to remember action items reliably without writing them down, or having someone else write them down.

      Yet another reason to hate in-person meetings, if you ask me.

    4. ThatOtherClare*

      If you have to take notes, a tablet is your best bet. Some tablets come with little keyboard covers that turn them into almost a mini laptop. But not an actual touch screen laptop. Too practical. I hate saying this, but if you’re in that kind of slightly sexist environment you want to give off ‘I’m being cool and using this excuse to show off my tech’ vibes, not ‘I’m being practical’ vibes. In fact, if it’s slightly impractical that’s better. In the old-fashioned mind, secretaries are practical and the lads are fun. A woman can be one of the lads nowadays, but not if she’s been branded secretary.

      Thankfully this kind of attitude is far more uncommon nowadays, but if you’ve accidentally landed somewhere that still has it then there’s not much you can do as an individual. Society is changing as we educate our children. No point wasting energy on fighting a mindset that is dying out naturally anyway. Just take the path of least resistance for as long as you’re stuck there, and we can all consider this a reminder to be proactive in educating the young people around us.

      1. ThatOtherClare*

        I also hate this further comment I’m about to make, but anyway.

        You may also find it helps your image if you’re willing to change the way you dress. At one job I had a ‘meeting outfit’ that was basically the female version of exactly what the men wore: chinos, collared white business shirt, crew neck cashmere sweater, black socks, leather shoes, hair in the most unobtrusive bun possible. It was all female clothing, I still looked very feminine, but I definitely noticed the men listened to me more when I dressed just like them. It was like the ‘other’ circuits in their brain were quietened and the ‘one of us’ circuits switched on a little. It made me mad every time I put it on, but it worked, so I did it.

        Everyone gets to choose their own balance of ‘fight back’ and ‘work around’ each day. If you don’t have the energy to teach some idiots that not all typing women are ye olde typists, and that admin people shouldn’t be devalued anyway, that’s ok. It’s not your sole duty to do so.

        1. Emmy Noether*

          I know exactly what you mean. I also have “listen to me” outfits that I wear to important meetings. Crisp collared shirts, a simple sweater if cold, pants, belt. Feminine cuts, but fabrics that would also be used for male business attire. Want to ping a maximum of subconscious “male” markers while not obviously looking like I literally dressed up as a man.

          It was the most difficult while pregnant. Male-coded business attire is all tailored and stiff and does not have stretch or gathers to accomodate bodily change.

          It’s kind of galling to have to spend time on thinking about this, but I will do whatever works to get the men used to listening to me while I wait for reality to catch up to theory.

          1. anne of mean gables*

            Seconding the maternity workwear struggle! My normal style is pretty menswear-inspired (which I am willing to admit is probably influenced by adopting ‘male’ signifiers to be taken seriously). Maternity clothes seem, by default, to be flowy/floral/ruffled. Which sort of makes sense, at least re: the shape, but I don’t know why the default assumption is that I want ribbons and pink and purple flowers on my blouses.

        2. learnedthehardway*

          I think this is a good idea – I can tell you that watching newscasters, I invariably think that the presenters who look the part – ie. suit jacket – look more professional than presenters who wear short sleeves/no sleeves, t-shirts, etc. This goes for both men and women, but it’s generally women who have no sleeves (if anyone is going to).

        3. doreen*

          I did something similar – but it was equal parts “dress similar to the men” and “don’t dress like the female support staff”. Which unfortunately for me, meant I was often dressed more formally than my male counterparts – they could wear a shirt, tie and sweater but if I wore a shirt and sweater , I would very possibly be mistaken for support staff and asked to take notes ( Conversely, male support staff would often be mistaken for professional staff if they wore a tie). So I always wore a jacket or at least had one with me, no matter what else I was wearing.

          1. Jellyfish Catcher*

            One option is to ask the person who advised you on note taking to critique your clothing and appearance and prioritize what is best to change.
            Clothing is one, but other things can matter. Ex: I’m fine with nose rings, but it can be distracting or less professional in some office settings.

            My suggestion is start with a professional looking jacket, (doesn’t have to be $$) in a color you like that can be worn with multiple (future) outfits. Wear it only to the office, to keep that investment looking good for a long time. (Same when you buy a pair of “office shoes.”)
            Then, gradually add what else as you can.

        4. Ms. Eleanous*

          Everyone gets to choose their own balance of ‘fight back’ and ‘work around’ each day.

          LOVE this.

      2. Wolfie*

        Yes, it sucks and the OP will know what it’s like in their environment, but agree that in my world a full laptop with younger woman typing a lot may lead to note-taker assumptions (bleurgh). I second the tablet idea, but also what the OP said about typing a few clue words without looking. Where the OP puts her focus in the meetings is really important, as that can either transmit ‘this person is taking notes’ or ‘this person is at the meeting, and occasionally jotting notes to themself’. However you can transmit a sense of the latter will help.

        For example, and this is ridiculous but I’ve done it myself (in a culture that is very male-dominated and hierarchical), I keep my laptop slightly off to one side, and I occasionally turn to it to type a line or two, but it’s clearly not the focus of my involvement in the meeting.

        1. BethDH*

          I was coming down here to type what you said in that first paragraph, so just to underscore:
          Your goal is to look like a participant rather than an observer. Note taking can fall on either side depending on visual cues, including eye contact (looking at screen vs speaker) and frequency of typing.

          I’d expect someone taking personal notes rather than minutes to generally come out of a meeting with less than half a page of bullet-point notes. I have a note-taking template that reduces how much I have to type in the meetings themselves (headers from the agenda usually, plus “follow up” “action items”). Maybe you could try something similar?

          1. ferrina*

            Agree. It can help to have a really small notepad (I’ve used post-it notes). That makes it physically impossible for you to take minutes, but it’s enough that you can jot down the 2-3 action items you need to take care of. (it doesn’t hurt that my handwriting is terrible, so copying my notes is nigh-impossible).

            I’ve also discovered that it’s amazing how many men can suddenly take notes when they realize that you are physically incapable of taking notes for them. (and shout out to all my male junior staffers that took notes without me ever needing to ask- you give me hope for a better future)

        2. Chelle*

          Yes, agreed that focus is what’s important! I think Alison was bang-on focusing on the quantity of notes as the likely issue.

          I work at a tech company and when I am not the official note-taker, I have my laptop open but with the screen partially closed, at about a 45 degree angle. That way it’s clear that I am not looking at it, I am looking at the presenter, but if I need to take down an action item or check a document, it’s still awake and easily available.

      3. Malarkey01*

        I also hate to make this but as soon as I started reading the story I thought yep it’s a problem. The last two months I’ve had 3 clients mistake our senior PM as support staff because she was the one on the laptop taking very detailed notes. I THINK there would have been a similar issue if a man had been doing it as well.

        It’s not just that you’re faster on the laptop, from what I see, people who take laptop notes take A LOT more notes because they are faster. Pen and paper force me to take bullet notes instead of more copious notes that read more like minutes.

        There are all sorts of body language signals and if someone in your specific workplace with good judgement is telling you how you’re reading to others, I would go with that over internet strangers!

        1. Bruce*

          Oof, for a Program Manager that could be an issue, because the good ones are very detail oriented and take good notes to keep people accountable. It helps if they are running the meeting so it is clear that they are setting the agenda and following up on action items.

      4. Reluctant Mezzo*

        Record the meeting on your phone. Tell the nice AI robot to provide a transcript. Notes can be edited on your regular computer outside the meeting.

    5. Emmy Noether*

      It seems to be quite workplace culture dependent. (As Alison said).

      I’m a taker of copious notes (writing helps me process information) in a place where most people seem to take none or sparse notes. I’m also a woman and most colleagues are men. You’d think this was a situation ripe for devolving into me being the designated minute-taker, but somehow it hasn’t. I’ve even volunteered to check my notes occasionally when people have asked me if I remembered XYZ, and they seem almost pleasantly surprised at the concept of keeping personal notes.

    6. Agent Diane*

      I’m often the only “creative” in a meeting but I struggle to take notes on a laptop so I used pen and paper even in meetings where everyone including me had our laptops open.

      That way you are more obviously just noting your own actions, things to follow up etc. and not taking minutes.

      The real problem you have is a constant for anyone in comms: some people falsely think it’s a menial, tactical job where they dictate and we do, rather than a profession with strategic expertise. I’m afraid you will encounter these people wherever and whatever you do. They will excitedly tell you all about this thing called Canva or whatever: nod, smile and then hold your line.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I was coming to suggest pen and paper also, for both Ann and LW.
        I learn to take notes before computers, and pen and paper has always worked well. You just write down a sentence here and there to remind you of important things. I’ve also found it useful to review after the meeting and add any details or thoughts.

      2. LW3*

        You are spot-on with your last paragraph!

        I used to do paper notes and might just go back to them — I’m not actually convinced that laptop notes ARE more efficient for me if I’m going through my paper notes regularly (which I don’t always do– but maybe it’s time to re-prioritize)…

        1. a clockwork lemon*

          I use “fancy” notebooks with fun stamped covers usually marketed towards bullet-journalists and it’s made a huge difference both in terms of how effective my notes actually are, AND it helps me focus my attention because I’m listening for important stuff rather than typing as I go without necessarily processing what’s being said. It also saves me a ton of time because I never have to go back and re-organize anything. I have my notebook, I know it’s chronologically organized by day and meeting, so if I ever need to go back and look for something random I can easily find it. There are also a bunch of cool higher-end planners now that come pre-organized with a full page for each day that I’m looking into (the ones by Hemlock & Oak are really pretty).

          I’m one of those chaos gremlin people for whom organization does not come naturally, but having such a simple organization system and layout for my notes has earned me a reputation for being very organized/on top of things AND reduces my own mental load for managing a bunch of notes and different projects.

        2. FrogPenRibbets*

          I’ve converted to notebook apps on my Ipad. Looks and feels like pen and paper, but more convenient and portable. Plus things like bookmarks, tags, and screen shots from online meetings.

          I use noteshelf

      3. Texan In Exile*

        “anyone in comms: some people falsely think it’s a menial, tactical job where they dictate and we do, rather than a profession with strategic expertise.”

        AKA “Please use jungle mail to send this email right now – the Friday afternoon of the long 4th of July weekend – to all 4,000 employees in the Tech department with the “from” being three VPs” as opposed to “We have a new program and we want to inform and engage employees how can we do that?”

        1. Agent Diane*

          Don’t. I’m flashing back to so many meetings! Bring me your objective, not what you think the comms solution is!

    7. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      “When I inquired about the men on my team not getting their fair turn, the truth is no animous was intended, that I am just good at it and not a whiner.”

      No animus doesn’t mean no sexism, as this line makes clear.

      1. ferrina*

        100%

        I’m a woman AFAB. I’ve been told that I’m “naturally good” at housework and childcare. My friend, I suck at housework, and I was naturally terrible with kids (I was trained through both formal education and effective apprenticeships, and at this point I’ve got enough hours racked up that I’m quite good with kids). What was technically said was supposed to a compliment- “you’re good at something”- but in context became an insult. The same people that tell me I’m “naturally good” at housework/childcare often completely ignore my capabilities at analysis, project management, communication and setting strategies. It tells you everything you need to know about how they see you.

    8. Runcible Wintergreen*

      I think this is a great discussion for people to be aware of what works in their culture and how they are seen.

      In my office, I like to take notes because I have a different problem – people do not listen/retain what is said in the meeting, or they “take notes” to write down decisions or assign actions that weren’t agreed upon in the meeting. I don’t necessarily think it’s malicious… but I certainly don’t like it when the notes are sent and my name is next to tasks that I expressly declined to do in the meeting. When I take notes, I deliberately highlight action items that were not committed to and decisions that haven’t been made so that people cannot reinterpret the meeting after the fact.

      This is not to minimize or disagree with the advice to the OP at all… just a caution to other women that NOT taking notes can also bite you in the butt in other ways, depending on your office culture, so be cautious and do what you need to do. It is very rarely a bad thing to have your own record of what was said in a meeting, just use it wisely.

    9. Craig*

      we just use a dictophone and microphone to record meetings. we have a record for regulators on the drive and can send a copy to anyone who wants one. admin loads them into the app that transcribed and makes summaries available on the shared drive.

  6. NCA*

    LW3: This is the one arena in which I’ve seen AI ‘assistants’ be of actual use – as transcribers and outline-creators for meetings. Would your company allow you to use software like that to make a transcription and followup outline, so all you’d have to do is set up your laptop and then not actively type?

    1. allathian*

      Probably not if they’re dealing with proprietary and/or customer data. Transcription AI could help a lot of people at least once they’re more reliable at the task than currently, but there are good reasons in many companies that haven’t invested in an “in-house” AI that doesn’t send any data to external servers to ban them.

      1. Been There*

        My company is very sensitive about what happens with our data, but we are allowed to use Copilot by Microsoft with paid licenses.

        1. a clockwork lemon*

          Enterprise-level AI is usually governed by proprietary data licenses. There’s some limited overlap with parts of the public internet for searches if the user chooses to scope that in, but the models themselves are trained on internal data only and it’s a “closed” stack which means that the data itself doesn’t ever leave our servers, just like how Microsoft doesn’t have access to all our emails even though we use their Azure services for email and Sharepoint.

          I’m a big AI skeptic but I’m part of the testing cohort internally for our company and I’m actually pretty excited about a lot of the stuff they want me to test. Nothing it can do will replace me or any of the other humans doing work at my company, but I suspect it’ll save me a few hours a week in frustrating bullshit I do manually right now (formatting documents, general administrivia).

          2. Alice*

            Why is the solution always “let’s automate the frustrating bullshit” instead of “let’s stop doing the frustrating bullshit”? I’m sure some of it really does have value despite the frustration but I’m also sure that some of it could be deep sixed.

    2. Nodramalama*

      Be very wary of these. I know of multiple places that have had massive issues where people were inviting external AI to meetings and not telling the other participants and then people have to investigate what was said, what was recorded, where the data was saved.

      1. Zelda*

        And the transcription I have seen (an admittedly small sample) has had really bad spots– things people absolutely did not say. Good old-fashioned [unintelligible] would have been better than the AI making stuff up to fill in the gap. Fraught with peril.

        1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

          This. Speech to text is not actually “intelligent”. It doesn’t know if it missed a word which completely changed the meaning of the sentence.

          1. Madre del becchino*

            I work for a small Catholic parish. Our manager took notes at a regional meeting using talk-to-text, which changed the word “Eucharistic” to “Euclidian”. We were definitely not talking about geometry…

            1. EvilQueenRegina*

              I once found a transcript of a meeting about a potential school sixth form closure becoming a Game of Thrones script when the name of the town where the school was got changed to “Lannister”. (The specific town is actually pronounced quite differently from its spelling which I think confused it!)

          2. Learn ALL the things*

            I was reviewing speech-to-text notes from a meeting I was in a few weeks ago, and every time our contractor, Jesus, was mentioned, the app transcribed his name as Hay Soos. Microsoft Word doesn’t even identify Soos as a word, so I’m not sure why that’s what the app decided to go with, but it did.

            1. Observer*

              Interesting!

              Just a few days ago, I saw a liver transcription going, and I wondered if it would get the name correct. It did and I was impressed. I don’t know what was doing the transcription, but I know it wasn’t a human.

              Which means that there is apparently still a significant gap in the quality of the *baseline* of these tools.

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          We had a meeting last week that was being intentionally recorded, where the Teams transcription abruptly changed to (terrible) French mid-meeting and was therefore pretty much completely useless.

      2. Acquisitions Incorporated*

        Shout-out to the time at my Old Job that someone attended a hiring committee meeting, had an AI transcribe it for her own use, and the AI program emailed a transcript of the meeting to *the entire company*.

        There were both internal and external people up for that job.

    3. Agent Diane*

      Why? She’s not the note taker. It’s not her job to take notes of the meeting.

      If they want notes taken for the meeting, the organiser can organise it. Your advice would reinforce the idea she’s there to take the notes.

    4. LW3*

      Unfortunately, the meeting context I’m most concerned about is in-person one-on-one meetings with senior staff, not groups (for which I am not the designated note-taker anyway), so the context of a computer being open/recording would be weirder than just having a paper notebook, I think– but I’ve seen those help in other contexts, if supervised by a human!

      1. a clockwork lemon*

        Oooooh LW I wish you’d told us this in your original letter! Definitely switch to handwritten notes if you’re talking about 1:1 meetings with senior staff! Big groups are one thing, but for individual in-person meetings it can be really distracting to have someone typing on a laptop when you’re the only two people in a room.

      2. ferrina*

        This context really changes things. In 1:1 meetings, you should only be taking a few notes on details. Often 1:1 meetings, the point is to converse and generate ideas or action plans. Don’t take notes while talking- it pulls you out of the conversation.

        For my most effective 1:1s, I come in with a bulleted agenda. We discuss each item, and I make a quick note under the item once we’re done discussing it. In rare cases, I may need someone to info-dump, and in those cases it makes a lot more sense for me to take notes while they talk.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      It sounds like #3 doesn’t want a transcription, and no one at the company is asking for one. LW3 wants to take their own notes that will be relevant to them. The concern was doing that might make them look like the official minutes taker – which they are not and which it sounds like maybe doesn’t exist right now.
      Other than not actively typing this doesn’t seem to solve the problem, but does have the potential to exacerbate it in a different way: they don’t want to be seen as the official source of minutes, but they’d be letting AI create one – rather than their own personally relevant notes created by typing only when necessary.

  7. allathian*

    LW1, paying for Ubers is a reasonably cheap way to buy goodwill from the employee. The employees who drive their own cars aren’t incurring any extra costs by staying late, so they really have no reason to complain.

    There are all sorts of reasons for people not to drive, including health conditions that the employee doesn’t have to disclose to the employer if they don’t affect their ability to do the job, just their ability to drive.

    Another alternative would be to always ensure that the employee can leave in time to catch the last bus, but I suspect that this would irritate the employees who drive far more than you paying the non-driving employee’s Ubers would.

    1. Lizard the Second*

      In my former workplace, it was standard procedure to provide employees with a Cabcharge voucher if they had to work until late. It acknowledges the difficulty of finding transport home at that hour.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Not that I have ever used it, but my company will provide taxi rides for employees working late. Like the example in the letter, the main bus line stops after a certain time (8.00pm in my case) and the office is not very far from an unpleasant area close to the main station.

        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          I once had a temp job that was in a not-great part of town with no public transport in the evening. Since that’s how I commuted, they would pay for me to take a taxi home if I had to work late and they would also make sure there was someone waiting with me in the lobby until it came. As a young woman, I very much appreciated both of those things because it really made me feel safe.

          1. The Prettiest Curse*

            I am posting this for context. If you can, please read this comment before yelling at me for my comment above.

            The comment above refers to a neighbourhood which:
            1. Is located in the UK, my home country
            2. Is located in a predominately white city.
            3. Has a predominantly white population.

            If you have read this comment and still wish to yell at me for any reason (including my awful word choice), go for it!

            Thank you very much for your time.

            1. Throwaway*

              Please don’t be too hard on yourself. Some people will take offense at anything and interpret even the most benign comments in the least charitable light.

              1. The Prettiest Curse*

                Oh, I’m not beating myself up, I would just prefer people to have some context before yelling at me! I would classify myself as mildly annoyed, but I’ll live.

        2. ferrina*

          My company does this too. If you are required to work late, we will pay for transportation home. We recognize that the commute is very different in the middle of rush hour and later at night when it’s dark with less bystanders. It’s a really easy way to show appreciation for the employee’s dedication.

          *note: it’s only when the work is required late for any reason, like if there’s a late meeting (can happen in our line of work) or if the workload can’t be done in a regular day. If an employee is choosing to work in late hours of their own volition (we have flex time), then it’s not reimbursed. We also have a hybrid set up where employees can often choose where they work, so it’s common for someone to pause and switch locations to commute during their preferred hours.

      2. Daria grace*

        Yes my previous employer (who was incredibly stingy on almost everything else) did this even though we were quite near public transport that ran later than anyone would be finishing. Those vouchers meant people weren’t travelling at times they felt less safe and weren’t absurdly late home due to waiting for a train that’s less frequent after peak hour

      3. Smithy*

        Yes – I used to work somewhere where the policy was written in a way where essentially if you were ever either at work or a work event and did not feel safe getting home via public transportation then you were able to charge rideshares or cabs.

        We were a really large office, and I will say that as broad as the caveat was – it really did not end up being over used. The most common usage was usually people choosing to take cabs/rideshare vs public transportation to or from the airport or train station. Particularly if arrival or departure times were earlier in the morning or late at night. Had there ever been a feeling the policy was being abused, I never heard about it.

      4. iglwif*

        My spouse’s company does this. He rarely has to work into the evenings now but in his first couple of roles there, he was involved in tax preparation and routinely worked till 10 or 11 at night — a time when, contrary to rush hour, it is faster and easier to get home in a car than by subway — so it was pretty important to us back then.

    2. MK*

      Sure, but I cannot help but see this request as entitled. Getting themselves to work is usually understood to be the employees’ responsibility; that means paying for a ride if and when public transport isn’t available. Unless they were promised their working hours would always be during hours when public transport runs, it’s on them to find a way.

      Working late often means additional expenses that aren’t compensated, childcare for example. What if another employee has timed their getting off work with their child’s daycare? Would the company pay for a babysitter? If not, why is this different? I think the fact that an uber a couple of times a year would be a minimal sum is obscuring the fact that this isn’t in fact reasonable to ask.

      1. Cordelia*

        It’s reasonable to ask, because it’s something that would be provided in many workplaces, including mine and the commenters above. Maybe it wouldn’t be unreasonable for the employer to say no, for the reasons you give, but the employer needs to balance that out with the goodwill gained from looking after their employees.

      2. Green great dragon*

        It depends a lot on the job/industry. If a job’s standard hours are 9-5, it’s not unreasonable to assume working hours will always be within the much wider band of when public transport runs. But in some places, some late working would be a known part of the deal.

        Not quite the same, but even the stingy civil service offered hotel rooms/taxis when we worked late, for a combination of safety and getting enough sleep.

        1. ferrina*

          I’ve found that in industries that operate during set business hours but expect semi-regular late work, it’s more likely that evening transportation will be reimbursed (i.e., law, consulting). It’s a really good incentive to keep people working late. It can also come with dinner reimbursement (within limit) if you are working past a certain point.

      3. ASD always*

        Childcare feels different because I would expect the default response from a parent in that scenario to be “I can’t stay late because I have childcare responsibilities”. That’s much more readily respected as an excuse than “I wouldn’t have transport” with the implication that you’d have an otherwise free evening.

        That said, I don’t think it would be unreasonable to ask for a childcare stipend for 2-4 evenings a year either.

      4. Coffee Snob/Knob*

        Maybe I’m just being particular here, but to me getting to work and getting home from work are different expectations. The employer may reasonably assume that the employee has signed up to getting to work on time (with public transport), but getting off work presumably is a result of variable workload equaling what time the said employee can leave. Hence, the lack of planning that the employee can make to accommodate public transport home.

        I feel like if the company promised the employee their hours were 9-5, and public transport stopped at 6; for those 4 times a year, the employee should be compensated for their transport home. Even if the expectation to stay late 4 times a year was conveyed in the interview process, any deviation from the expected hours (of a general office worker) should result some token recompense for the employee due to the deviation.

        Would your thinking change if the employee was tasked to work past midnight or whatever time the general public transport stops operating? Or should their pay then be adjusted to include some form of transport allowance?

        1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

          I also think it would be reasonable for a company to pay for an Uber to work if they had a very-occasional business need to have employees show up at work far earlier than usual. It feels along the lines of paying for an Uber/taxi to the airport for business travel if it saves the employee a lot of time or hassle vs. taking public transit.

      5. Ma Bell*

        What a tone-deaf take.

        At professional services firms, it’s routine to work late (I call such an exceptional day “Monday”) and they have always covered taxis or Ubers home.

        In a normal company don’t expect people will work late 4 times per year if you don’t cover the Uber home.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Yeah, the pushback is really surprising to me. In major cities with public transportation, taxis home when you work especially late are really, really normal. That’s even if public transportation is still running. When I worked in NYC, the cutoff was 9pm– if you left the office before 9pm, you got yourself home. After 9, you expensed a taxi.

          Paying for the employee’s Uber 4 times a year is the trade-off for having them work after hours.

          1. Great Frogs of Literature*

            Yeah, I was always told that if I worked late, I could take a taxi/uber home. (And public transit in my area ran until midnight-something, and I definitely wasn’t working that late. It just meant that I might spend longer waiting on a mostly-empty platform.)

            It’s to the employer’s advantage, too — if I get mugged because my normal commute home is fine at 6pm and sketchy at 11pm, the loss of my productivity for however long probably costs them more than the price of my ride.

            1. thegreatprevaricator*

              In the UK and in public sector – it’s even enshrined in our expenses policy that one of the rare occasions where one can expense a taxi is where public transport is not viable and/ or personal safety particularly re lone working. Risk of violence in lone working due to isolated areas or periods when people aren’t around is even a risk highlighted by the HSE. A taxi would be a reasonable mitigation.

            2. Baunilha*

              I had that exact situation happen to me at my previous job: I left work later than usual (though not really late) and was robbed at gunpoint while waiting for the bus. I had to take a few days off to sort everything out, and all the other women in the office that had to take the bus refused to work late after that. Company eventually decided to pay for Uber in some situations.

            3. ferrina*

              Yep. Even if nothing goes wrong, there’s still an impact. You’d be less willing to do late nights because you are worried about safety. I’ve had to stop working because my bus stopped running and I had no other way to get home (I was broke af, and I wasn’t going to pay for a taxi out of my grocery money). I’ve shown up to shifts exhausted because the previous night I had to walk home for 90 minutes instead of taking a 20 minute cab ride. I’ve seen people sleep at the office because it was easier than trying to get home. Don’t let your people sleep at the office; pay for their taxi.

          2. Ashley*

            I think having a more time defined cut off / explanation can be helpful for setting this up as a rough policy. Although walking home at 6pm is very different in the summer then when it is winter and already pitch black.

        2. Smithy*

          This is really where I fall.

          Presuming this isn’t somewhere where the rideshare are exceptionally expensive this is a case where it’s likely costing, what – $200 or so a year at the highest? For an individual person, that’s simply a financial hit that’s larger than it is for the employer. On the nights this person works late, they may also have additional childcare investments and opt for take away or other personal expenses that many people take on when they work late. So to take this expense will likely not snowball and will gain a lot of goodwill.

          Where I used to work, they felt a need to write down that if anyone was at the office or work event and felt unsafe they could always plan on expensing rideshares or taxis. One of the reasons was that they’d had a few employees feel pressured into taking rides back from events from people who’d been drinking. And that no matter how much it was said “we don’t expect you to put yourself into dangerous situations for work and trust your judgement” – it wasn’t until it was written in a policy that they saw junior staff start doing that.

        3. NotAnotherManager!*

          Also in professional services in a major metro, and it’s totally standard to get your transport home covered after a certain time of evening when public transport becomes infrequent or ends. We are not in an unsafe area, but, when someone agrees to stay late for a customer project, that’s to our benefit, as is their getting home safely and efficiently.

          The nicer places also provide a meal subsidy after 7 PM.

      6. Dancing Otter*

        But people frequently use daycare pickup as a reason not to work late. We’ve seen letters here about that, ref. Work-life balance. (Also parent versus non-parent conflict, but let’s not go down that rabbit hole here.)

        Should the LW just accept that certain employees can’t be expected to work past their normal hours?

        1. HonorBox*

          I very much understand childcare pickup and the challenge that can be faced. If a workplace is up front with everyone at the time they’re hired about the late hours a few times a year, people should figure out how to plan. If someone springs a late meeting on an employee who has to pick up kids or can’t get to the bus, that’s a different story and I can support someone using those reasons as reason not to stay late.

        2. Devo Forevo*

          I’m struggling to see the problem here for both the employee and the LW. I work at a nonprofit. We just had our big fundraiser of the year, which ran way past midnight, with everyone in my department there. Since it’s one of the 2-4 times a year we work late, we all arrange childcare like usual if needed and then we expense our cabs home. What’s difficult about this?

      7. urguncle*

        Someone I know who works late nights a few times a year has 10 “credits” for emergency childcare through a provider that the company uses for this reason.

      8. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        If the hours were regularly after the bus stops running, sure. But this is 4 times a year. So not regularly hours but unusual circumstances. In that case, since the person is still at work when the busses stop running for the employer’s convenience, the employer can pay for an uber home.

        It’s called building goodwill as noted. If you treat your employees well, then they are more likely to stick around.

      9. Yorick*

        I’m not a parent but I wouldn’t object to my employer providing a few credits for emergency childcare for employees who work late a couple of times a year.

      10. Ellis Bell*

        This would have been expensed everywhere I have ever worked, (and I have worked for the greatest of cheapskates) because they all understood that travel expenses generated by business reasons are to be reimbursed. The line I’ve seen used most often as an explanation of what will/won’t be reimbursed is: “We do not reimburse the equivalent of your daily travel expenses, or any travel expenses which are lesser than your usual daily commute.” This acknowledges that if they asked you to go to an event were the drive is closer to home than usual, you treat that as a saving, and don’t put in for mileage. So, if the employee’s Uber is more expensive than their bus journey, you reimburse because they only need it for business reasons. As for babysitting costs, I have never worked anywhere where childcare was treated as the same as travel costs; you would never ask an employee with kids to work outside their normal hours though, surely? Finding an appropriate carer for a child is not remotely as easy as calling a cab.

      11. PizzaDog*

        How is it entitled? They’re able to get to work on the other days – it’s not their fault that the public transportation stops. How else are they meant to get home?

      12. YetAnotherAnalyst*

        If my employer needed me to work later than my childcare arrangements a couple of times a year, my default assumption is that I would be able to bring my kid to the office for that time.

        1. Laura*

          Yeah, I had a job where we would have to stay late unexpectedly and there were quite a few times I ended up entertaining my coworker’s kids in the office while they finished up in the lab. That only works if your childcare provider is close to your job and you have a safe place for your child at work (and depending on your job, coworkers who are willing/able to help out).

        2. ferrina*

          I’ve had plenty of days where I stopped work at 5, picked up my kids, fed them and cared for them, then started working again at 8 after my kids were in bed. (Hybrid work means my employer gets more hours out of me)

      13. Jeanine*

        And I kind of see you as an entitled driver who has never had to find a way home late at night with no car. Anyone who has been in that position wouldn’t say this.

      14. Successful Birthday Rememberer*

        I have never worked at any company in my entire career where this would be even considered. I wouldn’t even ask because of the optics of looking entitled / whiny. Its expected that you work out your own transportation and is just part of the job like getting to work on time, showing up professionally dressed, and everything else.

        1. NotAnotherManager!*

          I wonder if this is a cultural difference for cities/public transit v. areas with ample and free employee parking?

          It costs $300/month to park in my building in DC. Due to both parking costs and wear and tear on one’s nerves to drive in DC, a substantial portion of the office takes public transit, even if they have a car. Public transit in DC becomes sparse after 7 PM and non-existent around 11 PM. Depending on the area of the city, safety can also become an issue, even at bus stops/in subway stations. Everywhere I’ve worked provides transportation home for late work – cab/rideshare for those who do not drive in and parking/mileage reimbursement for those that do.

          I cannot imagine NYC is any better on the parking/commuting cost front, though I believe their subway runs overnight.

        2. a clockwork lemon*

          And in contrast, I have never worked anywhere in my entire career where it’s expected that employees have to eat transportation costs for business travel outside of their normal working hours/daily responsibilities. My current workplace reimburses for car service and dinner if you’re working in the office after 8pm and everywhere else I’ve worked has had similar policies in place.

        3. Orv*

          One of my employers offered a certain number of taxi vouchers per year because they were very short on parking space, and really, really wanted anyone who could to take public transit. Making sure everyone always knew they’d have a way to get home was part of that.

        4. Acquisitions Incorporated*

          I personally wouldn’t say “entitled”, but in my industry, this would be an absolute non-starter, and asking would make you seem hopelessly out-of-touch. I had no idea this wasn’t standard!

          And this is one of the reasons why I love this site — I get to learn about the norms of other industries!

      16. iglwif*

        Full disclosure: former transit commuter (I work from home now), spouse & parent of current transit commuters here.

        What you see as “entitled,” a lot of organizations see as a very small part of the cost of doing business. My spouse’s company will pay for an Uber home (before Uber, they handed out taxi chits) for anyone who has to stay at the office past a certain time, or for anyone who normally commutes via transit but has to go to a satellite office that isn’t transit accessible. For people who do have cars and drive themselves out to satellite offices, they pay a standard rate per km. We live in a city, which means that probably 80-90% of all staff at his downtown location commute by transit; this is a cheap and easy way to make people feel like the company cares a teensy bit about their welfare. (So cheap and so easy that not providing it would be deeply resented.)

        Like Alison says, it’s absurd to expect someone to shoulder the burdens of car ownership 365 days a year because on less than 5 of those days, they won’t be able to take the bus home from work.

        To reframe this a little bit:
        * If parking at your workplace is free, but an employee drives to an off-site meeting 2-4 times per year and has to pay for parking, would a request to reimburse the parking fees feel “entitled” to you?
        * If 9-5 employees had to work until, say, 9pm a few times a year, would you feel they are being “entitled” if they asked to have dinner brought in?

        1. Heather*

          I totally agree. If the employees are expected to shoulder the cost of late night transportation home, then they are essentially working extra hours to benefit the company at their own expense. It’s the same as the company paying for meals on a travel day they are requiring.

    3. Lim*

      In my country it’s the law that any employee finishing work after a certain time (I think it’s either 11pm or 11.30pm), your company must provide a taxi home. For safety.

    4. PB Bunny Watson*

      See, I had the opposite reaction. If you start getting into this tit for tat, it will spiral. Car owners likely have more costs than the person requesting an Uber… gas, wear and tear on the car, parking (in some cases), insurance, etc. So the argument that they are incurring more of a cost 2-4 times a year doesn’t really make sense to me, especially for something that was known from the start. Let’s say it’s $20… that’s $80 a year, which is still way less than what people who aren’t taking public transportation have to pay. And it just seems unrealistic to try to offer everyone vouchers when they need them… it would be a nightmare to keep up with if you’re a large business that can handle that. I’m all for helping staff and promoting goodwill, but it is likely either that the business is too large to do this fairly–or it’s small enough that it might not be able to handle applying it fairly. But I also work for the government, so this absolutely would not fly.

      1. Silver Robin*

        absolutely not. Nobody is saying that all employees should be paying the same amount for transit to and from or that it would be the employer’s responsibility.

        The job is the job and folks are expected to get themselves to and from. An employee can choose how to get to the job: personal vehicle or public transit. Both have pros and cons, both work better for different situations. If your employee makes the decision for themselves based on normal, expected flow of the job to use a car, then the few days they have to stay late do not change their expenses. If your employee has looked at the job and their circumstances and chosen not to have a car and use public transit, then those random days do change their expenses and that should be covered.

        The comparison is the cost of this day for this employee vs the usual cost for a day for this same employee, not across employees.

      2. Good Enough For Government Work*

        I also work in Government, and it very much does fly. In fact, it’s literally in our contracts that we can expense a taxi home if we’re required to stay exceptionally late (I think the cutoff point is 9pm) for work reasons…

      3. ferrina*

        It’s not a tit for tat?
        Giving people the option to take a taxi if they end work at a certain time is a very normal business practice. They can either put it on the company credit card, or pay for it out of pocket and be reimbursed (some companies even have accounts with certain taxi companies).

        If you are driving a car and choose not to take the taxi, you will not get reimbursed for the taxi you did not take. If you are driving a car and prefer to take a taxi, you can reimburse for the taxi that night but nothing else (for example, can’t get reimbursed for the taxi the next morning).

        The goal isn’t to make sure everything feels everything is absolutely equal. It’s to ensure that employees feel appreciated and incentivized to do what they need to to get the job done, without hemorrhaging employees who leave to find more consistent working hours or better benefits.

      4. Smithy*

        First of all – I totally understand that government has very prescribed rules with little flexibility. But I will also say that as someone who has many US Federal employee friends, there are rules and policies that federal workers get that I’ve seen them be surprised are not guaranteed for those of us in different sectors.

        The reality is that employers outside of government usually have a lot more flexibility to add or amend policies. So if the policy is that anyone working after X:XXpm can charge a rideshare/taxi, then the nature of that policy tells car owners that on those days they too could take public transportation into the office and then a taxi home. For some folks struggling with nighttime driving, they might choose this option – but just make it a policy that folks have access to or don’t.

      5. Bear in the Sky*

        While it’s true that car owners have more costs overall than non-car owners, those expenses aren’t just for commuting purposes. The car also gets used for personal reasons. And the driver’s commute cost doesn’t change just because they’re driving home later than usual.

        The employer isn’t responsible for employees’ personal decisions about car ownership or lack thereof and isn’t responsible for the employees’ normal commute costs. It’s having to incur significantly higher commute costs than normal that makes it a business expense. If an employee who’s dependent on public transportation has to work past when public transportation stops running, that significantly increases their commute cost. If a car owner does, there’s no difference. Unless their car is in the shop or something like that, in which case Alison suggested that the employer also cover the extra expense for them.

    5. Chick-n-Boots*

      I came here to say something similar. When I used to work in DC, offering a car service or taxi voucher (these were the pre-Uber days) for people who worked late was standard practice because many of us took the metro or bus to work. It was a really nice perk that made staying late less of a burden. I worked in law firms then, which I realize can be it’s own thing, but that was also one of the work places I was happiest – because they did offer things like that. It made you feel like the company recognized that you were going above and beyond. It was a small expense (for them) with a very big impact (for us).

    6. Dido*

      this employee is already saving massive amounts of money by not having a car payment, registration fees, tax, maintenance, gas, etc. They can afford their own Uber three times a year

      1. Velawciraptor*

        I do appreciate the way this comment crystalizes my problem with some of this discussion. Something about the phrase “expense they have assumed by not having a car” already made me uneasy. And that feeling is amplified by some of the responses, such as this one, to LW1.

        There seems to be an assumption by some people that a worker not having a car/using public transit is some sort of eccentricity/form of personal whimsy rather than the far more common reality that its a reality forced on them by economic necessity. It just feels like either a blindness to privilege or hostility towards poverty.

        The reality is, you have no idea what someone who is dependent on public transit can or cannot afford. And it is, at best, profoundly ignorant and, under worse circumstances, dismissive and cruel to proclaim otherwise.

        To LW 1: I see two options. Either stop requiring someone you know to be dependent on public transit to work so late that they cannot rely on that transit or suck it up and cover the cost of staying that late 2-4 times a year.

      2. YetAnotherAnalyst*

        Counterpoint: this employer is already saving massive amounts of money by not hiring additional staff to make sure all necessary work is done within standard business hours. They can afford an Uber a couple times a year, if they need someone to stay late – or they can hire a contractor, if they think that would be cheaper.

        1. Orv*

          The employer may also be saving money by not having to provide as much parking. At my previous job they would have been massively short on parking spaces if everyone decided to drive in every day.

      3. It's Decorative Gourd Season. MF*

        This is a terrible take. You have no idea why someone does or doesn’t use public transport vs. a car. I have a seizure disorder that disqualifies me from driving, and fortunately I live in a place with a great metro transit system. But apparently you’d expect me to suck it up and pay for rideshare on a late night… because I don’t have a car payment? That’s absurd and ableist.

      5. Rana*

        This is such a stupid argument. People live places and take certain kinds of commutes for various reasons, including financial (see other commentators who can’t afford a car, while other people might actually pay more money in rent in order to be able to use public transit). Everyone makes a decision about where they work, where they live, and how to get between the two that may mean that some people pay more than others.

        You make that decision based on your **normal working schedule.** If your employer asks you to deviate from that normal schedule, it is completely fair for them to help offset the cost of that deviation.

    7. LCH*

      for #1, i was an admin in NYC where we pretty much all used public transit. transit there runs almost all the time, but might get erratic later at night. my workplace was extremely stingy in terms of benefits, but if i was required to stay late (not staying late of my own volition), they did pay for a car service to take me home. so i guess i view it as normal thing for a workplace to do.

      1. Indolent Libertine*

        My kid was staff for a large NYC law firm for several years, and it was absolutely explicitly part of the deal that if you were required to work past X hour (I *think* it was 8pm?) you got to take a car service home on the company’s dime. Also, if you were asked to work through lunch you could order in on the company’s account, and if you stayed past Y hour in the evening you could order dinner. They absolutely viewed this as their obligation and a normal cost of doing business.

    8. Cocoa*

      Please pay for the Ubers. Especially if these employees are paid low wages. My parent works a low paying retail job and is unable to drive due to medical reasons. Occasionally her work will require her to stay late. If she misses the bus, her only option to get home is an expensive Uber. Due to the expense, she actually ends up losing money by staying late.

    9. Princess Sparklepony*

      I worked in a major city and in my industry it was normal for the company to pay for a “black car” to take you home if you worked after 8 pm. It was a nice perk especially since most people took public transportation – which did run at night but not as frequently.

      Our joke was that the job didn’t pay well but you could make it up with the benefits….

    10. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      yes, I haven’t driven since a near accident frightened the wits out of me. I now use my bike but would much appreciate being able to uber home after working late, since I’d be that much more tired.

  8. ClydesdalesandCoconuts*

    Has anyone considered unplugging “quickdraw mcgraw’s” phone so it won’t ring and literally forces her to allow others to take on the task?

    LW#5 you very likely could have gone to
    your union about these issues, because they likely were not following your cba ( assuming that you have a union based on being a state employee) when gicing you extra tasks not related to your role or position. Unfortunately after this long it is really too late and you either need to transfer to another position laterally or just suck it up until you retire.

    1. MsM*

      Presumably she does get calls she has to answer on occasion.

      Honestly, though, I feel like this entire problem could be solved by just setting up an automated system that will transfer the calls to people’s extensions when the receptionist is out. Not sure why the free for all has been deemed the better solution.

      1. Emmy Noether*

        I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Which extension would the calls be forwarded to? Especially for general callers that don’t know specifically who they need to speak to.

        I guess another possibility would be to set up a rotating system.

        1. MsM*

          If they don’t know, then they get told “press star to search the directory alphabetically,” or something along those lines.

          Or heck, just send everything to voicemail and appoint someone to check it. If it’s not important enough for this to be someone’s designated job when the receptionist is out, it can’t be all that time-sensitive.

          1. ecnaseener*

            I don’t think that tracks. In a lot of workplaces, callers often have general questions that the receptionist would answer when they’re in, and/or the caller has no way of knowing which staff person would be able to help them. Sending all calls to voicemail for half of each day would be a much worse solution than just asking everyone to pitch in on picking up the phone.

            1. Hyaline*

              The poor receptionist arriving every morning to a voicemail inbox full of mundane inquiries anyone could have answered!

            2. fhqwhgads*

              Almost none of it tracks, really. If they get enough calls during the chunk of the day they – by design and intentional schedule – have no receptionist, to be significantly disruptive, then the root cause is they really need a receptionist scheduled for longer hours. If the calls are minimal enough that they really don’t need a receptionist – and it sounds like that may be true – the free for all is fine because it shouldn’t be a burden on anyone.
              I wouldn’t even be surprised if they DO already have an automated directory and the only stuff ringing through to the free for all are the people who don’t know who they need. Then the answer really is QuickDraw needs to answer the phone less or quit complaining. Because the problem isn’t “too many calls” or even “too many calls for one person to handle”. The “problem” is “no one else answers, why me” and the answer is “you don’t give anyone else a chance”.

          2. Emmy Noether*

            A lot of people call not for a specific person, but for a function. If you need accounts receivable, or legal, or the new contact for printer maintenance because the old one is defunct, an alphabetical list of employees won’t help. What an alphabetical list of employees will do is let callers that should have been filtered out quickly get through to people they shouldn’t get to. It will also give spammers, scammers, headhunters etc. a list of current employees. And it will have to be frequently updated to be of any use (and it’s a PAIN to navigate for legit callers).

            As a business, you need a default option for callers, and you need a filter if the number is listed anywhere public. Being effectively unreachable for half the business day is also not great. There are answering services for this kind of thing, OR, much more effective, assign it as part of someone’s job.

          3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

            Hiring a receptionist full time would solve the problem. But if there isn’t enough work for a full time receptionist, then I agree these calls probably aren’t urgent.

            It would drive me nuts to hear the phone ringing half the day and then listening to see if someone else grabs it or if I have to. Coworker is grabbing it to stop that tension in her — and to martyr herself. Or maybe she can’t articulate why she feels the needs to grab it right away to the LW.

            The overall system needs changing somehow. Then no one has the problem of grabbing the phone.

            1. metadata minion*

              “But if there isn’t enough work for a full time receptionist, then I agree these calls probably aren’t urgent.”

              I don’t think that tracks. It’s perfectly possible to get a few urgent calls in a day.

            2. Gray Lady*

              I think it would be more like “I got the last one, so I’ll let someone else get it” and “I haven’t gotten one for a while so I’ll grab the phone as soon as I finish this microbit of this task I’m doing” or “I’ll get the next one, I’m deep in the middle of something right now but there are four other people to do it.” If it’s everyone’s responsibility to answer the phones when the receptionist is out, the idea shouldn’t be “I won’t unless I have to,” but more like “I will since I’m relatively free and didn’t get the last three.” But not, “The phone is ringing I must immediately jump on it every time!”

            3. sparkle emoji*

              I work in a small office where all calls go to everyone and whoever’s free picks it up. There aren’t enough of us to necessitate any receptionist. If its a small number of people working and responsible for these calls, I don’t think the system is necessarily broken. The person complaining sounds like people in my life who just like to have something to complain about. If that’s the case, changing the phone system will just make them find a new grievance.

          4. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            Sending clients to voice mail is a good way of riling them up.
            Having to press buttons to get through to the right person is also very annoying for clients. Especially if it’s a small outfit, which is what it sounds like here.

      2. Myrin*

        The calls are being transferred to people’s extensions – OP says that “everyone’s phone rings”.
        It does sound like it would be better to set up a fixed rotation (and not just a “we’re supposed to take turns” kind of loose arrangement), though, so that Crabby doesn’t even get a chance to answer the phone.

        1. Mutually supportive*

          If crabby is choosing to answer more than their share, that’s up to them. Why should someone have to set up then manage a whole rotating system just to appease them?

          Having it ring to the wider group means that any individual can ignore it if they’re in the middle of something or answer it if the timing works for them – as long as most people are being reasonable, this’d work work fine. It’s just this one person screwing it up and also complaining about it!

          1. Emmy Noether*

            Mh, I definitely wouldn’t act like Crabby, but the phone thing would annoy me too. Having all the phones ring is louder than just one. People are more or less tolerant of letting a phone ring, so even if Crabby was out, chances are it wouldn’t be equally distributed. It will also break more people’s concentration while they think about if they should get it this time.

            It’s fairly well studied that things that are “everyone’s” responsibility get treated like they are no one’s (tragedy of the commons), or always get stuck on the same few people.

            It’s not a great system.

          2. fhqwhgads*

            They don’t need to, but it’s also commonly an existing feature of phone systems, rather than to ring them all, to ring one at a time until someone answers. So it might be a low-effort way to stop the complainer from complaining because it’d ring to someone else first, and they’d probably answer, and get round to complainer fewer times. Presuming their system is capable of such a rota. Some might be only capable of “always ring A first, then B, then C” which wouldn’t help this situation.

      3. The Prettiest Curse*

        Phones can be set up to ring on one desk for several rings, then another desk for several rings and so on. That might be a decent solution in this case, especially if they put the quick responder towards the end of the rotation.

        I do confess to being a quick phone answerer myself, though, because I find the sound distracting.

        1. Magpie*

          This would just lead to a bad experience for people calling this company and a lot of abandoned calls. The majority of people will give up on a phone call if it’s not picked up after five or so rings and bouncing around to many different people’s phones one at a time would lead to callers waiting at least that long before their call is answered.

          1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            But the other staff are more likely to pick up when it’s just their phone ringing, so it’ll be OK.

    3. Stipes*

      One place I worked at, we had our phone software set so that a different person would be ringed *first* whenever a call fell to the group. An automatic rotation.

      Probably not a feature on every phone system, but seems like the ideal solution in this case.

  9. PurplePenquin*

    re #5 – if it is a State job, contact HR to see about reclassifying your position. You should not need supervisor approval for that to happen.

    1. Marina Rose*

      This could just be my organization (public university) but reclassifying job descriptions does require the supervisor’s sign-off in my state. It’s worth checking out though

      1. Elitist Semicolon*

        It does in mine, too, and every job description has a percentage-based breakdown. “Other duties as assigned” as a category is rarely listed as more than 10% of the job.

    2. The Dude Abides*

      I’d be wary of this – when this came up on my end 3-4 years ago, the great-grandboss told my boss and grandboss that if my position was re-classified, I would have to bid on my own job.

    3. Someone Online*

      In my state, as a supervisor, I have basically no control over what someone is getting paid. But, if the job duties were significantly different, I would be able to help with reclassifying, if there was an appropriate job description at a higher pay scale. But a lot of times there are limited opportunities to reclassify as well. The system is not easy to navigate.

    5. spcepickle*

      At my agency there are two ways – one is through your supervisor, but the other is employee requested through HR. It depends on the union agreement you work under. I have had two employees try and both times we were told to remove tasks from them instead of them being reclassified.

  10. Old dude*

    re LW1,

    my first job in the late 70s was in downtown San Francisco and most employees took some sort of public transit (bus, train, ferry).

    If we worked past 7pm the company picked up dinner and a cab ride home. It made giving our all that much more palatable.

    1. JR17*

      I worked in NYC in the 2000s, just before the recession, and this was common at big companies, especially professional service firms. It was something like dinner could be expensed if you worked past 8 and a black car home if you worked past 9. The big investment banks all had long lines of black cars out front if you walked by at night.

      2. anon here*

        This was definitely true of Biglaw. For what it’s worth, public defenders who work night court in NYC work a shift from 5 pm to 1 am, and the Legal Aid Society’s union bargained for (and got) cabfare for going home from night court. (My alternate defender office paid for our metrocards; we had to pay for cabs if we wanted one. My first night in night court was the night before Daylight Savings Time, so I left court at 1, which is when my express subway started running local, so a 30 min subway ride took one hour, so I got home just after 2, which was actually now just after 3. Good times. I hated night court.)

      3. Indolent Libertine*

        My kid was staff at a big NYC law firm and this was the deal there, not just for partners or attorneys but AFAIK for all firm staff. Their job category was very overworked and underpaid, so the meals on the firm’s account and the car service home after working until completely unreasonable hours were really helpful. The firm very much just viewed this as a normal cost of doing business.

    2. iglwif*

      This is extremely standard where I live, too, especially at places located downtown to which most employees commute by public transit. (The cutoff is usually later than 7pm, though.)

  11. Other Doodies As Assigned*

    9 years?! As a civil servant myself you are SOL. You say something in the first 1-3 months and get your union on the horn. When this happened to me they had to give me a 10% pay bump. Not much, but required. Then went it went on I became acting (higher position). It was very clear in my MOU. Sorry this happened but 9 years later is too far gone.

    1. Meat Oatmeal*

      I’m not super hopeful that the union can help at this point, but if I were this LW’s union steward, I’d want LW to loop me in just in case there was *something* we could do.

      For example, has that workload led LW to do unpaid overtime? Or maybe do I know of other union members who are carrying huge workloads, and does that distribution of work disproportionately burden a legally protected class? Etc.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Or start getting the load distributed now because when the OP retires, someone is going to have to do the work anyway.

        Which, OP, this is a point to bring up, if you think they won’t push you out early or take everything away so you are sitting there bored all day until you can retire. Ask what you can start training people on so they can take over. Then gradually shift it to them.

    2. Marina Rose*

      I agree. I think OP might be able to spin it like “this was sustainable then, but as time goes on I can no longer keep up with this workload.” and use Alison’s script. Otherwise, I know my supervisors would take the attitude of “she’s been doing this for 9 years, why is she speaking up now?” (if they were talking about me here.)

  12. Jules the First*

    LW3, yes, I’m afraid you have to give up the laptop for a tablet or notebook. The immediate problem is that having the laptop open gives “official notetaker” vibes; but the longer term problem is that it gets you used to transcribing meeting content in detail and as you get further into your career, that will start to get in the way of you being actively present and participating in the meeting.

    A good compromise for you might be something like a rocketbook where you can take physical notes and then scan them to your preferred app and easily erase the notebook?

    1. Still*

      It only “gets you used to transcribing meeting content in detail” if you transcribe meeting content in detail, which I see no indication of.

      Honestly, I’m a bit surprised by the responses here. I trust that the LW’s mentor knows the field and might be right in this particular case, but I’m general, it’s so incredibly normal to have your laptop out and take occasional notes at meetings.

      Don’t take minutes and don’t send your notes around. If someone asks you to share, say “oh, I’ve only jotted down what’s relevant to my job”. But I think anything beyond that is an overkill. If you have a job where taking notes on a laptop vs a tablet is going to make a real difference, you have bigger problems on your hands.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Yes, this is a very specific case where the advice should probably be seriously considered. Use an alternative way of taking notes. OP look around and see what your colleagues in the meetings do to take notes. Try to follow that.

        But in most fields/offices having a laptop out to take notes is not unusual and would not scream note taker.

        1. Great Frogs of Literature*

          I’m not sure that doing what colleagues do will help — if the problem is that tech guys can do whatever and still be tech guys, but if LW does the same thing and it makes her the note-taker, even mimicking their behavior isn’t necessarily safe.

        2. A Person*

          Yeah, I find the comments on this one quite interesting because in my office the culture the opposite to what a lot of people are saying. Managers and senior staff mostly use laptops in meetings, whereas a lot of lower-level staff often use notepads or don’t take notes at all.

  13. Retired @ last*

    I confess I would immediately assume the person with the laptop was taking minutes. If anyone other than the minute taker was typing away on a laptop, I would find it distracting and would likely assume they were working on something else entirely (because I personally find taking notes on a laptop to be extremely inefficient and tend to think that anyone else who wasn’t an experienced minute taker would feel the same – obviously not true, but still the way my mind goes).
    I use a digital notebook to scribble down anything I need to remember – much more efficient for me, and, if I’m not constantly typing away on a keyboard, no one’s going to mistake me for the minute taker. Which is just as well, since I’m absolutely dreadful at it and have spent the last 40+ years trying (mostly successfully) to avoid it. Anyone who can do it well has my deepest respect.

    1. allathian*

      I can take notes for myself, but I hate taking minutes and I’m very happy that I don’t have to do that at my current job anymore. My team meetings have agendas that function as minutes, any decisions are put on the agenda, generally by our manager who runs the meeting. When I first started, we had desktops and you had to take notes by hand and then type them up after the meeting, and that was very inefficient.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I work in an environment where most people use a laptop and I tend to take notes pen and paper (having my laptop open is incredibly distracting to me), and I’ve observed that whoever is typing the most obviously ends up being responsible for the meeting notes. I don’t even think it’s conscious. Other people get more involved in the conversation and stop taking notes at some point and the person who keeps typing (usually a woman) ends up sharing their notes to everyone after the meeting.

      I’ve seen this in different companies and dynamics, it even happens if my boss is the note taker. I’m sure there’s plenty of social commentary there but the reality is something to be aware of.

    3. Nightengale*

      I mean different brains and bodies work different ways. I have never been able to use a pen or pencil to write more than a few sentences and have even more difficulty using a touch screen so a digital notebook would be a no-go. I need an external bluetooth keyboard to type on any sort of touchscreen device such as a smartphone, which then is much clumsier than a laptop where the keyboard is attached already. I started college in 1994 using a laptop to take notes and a laptop is almost part of my body at this point.

      I was briefly secretary for a professional group that had phone conference meetings but otherwise no one would ever mistake me for a designated minutes taker.

      1. LW3*

        It’s really helpful and interesting to see so many different responses to this! It’s highlighting for me that this doesn’t feel like an issue in group settings at my workplace, but the advice from Mentor was more about the perception to senior staff generally/outside partners vs. our internal culture (which she’s not very familiar with). I think I’m going to try going back to paper for a while and see how that lands– I’m way better able to jot things without looking with pen anyway!

        1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          I’m glad that pen and paper will work with you because I definitely would have recommended it. I’m a paper notetaker because I have symbols I use to keep track of what type of info I’m writing down. And because I can doodle to keep my brain engaged.

        2. Eldritch Office Worker*

          My process is to take pen and paper notes and then take a few minutes during the day to transcribe them and reflect on the meeting/my takeaways/my action items. I find everyone ends up with a process that’s best for both their habits and their environment, including things like optics. Good luck!

        3. Insert Clever Name Here*

          Since Mentor is not familiar with your internal culture, is there someone you trust at your company that you can run this by (preferably a senior woman)? If you think pen and paper will work just as well that’s great, but if it’s not an issue in your company it might be worthwhile to get a confirmation that it’s actually worth making a change.

    4. Flibbergibbit*

      I think your assumption is simply biased, as is the consultant’s. I’d never use a laptop in a 1-on-1 or a small meeting. But I’ll bring a laptop to larger meetings. Or a tablet. People have their preferences. Then again, while I’m a woman, I am more senior and I have zero hesitation in refusing, saying I take notes for myself, so they wouldn’t be suitable for anyone else. I take excellent notes, and they have saved me and projects I’m on countless meeting hours and rework, especially if I’m not in a leadership role and have less control over iffy management practices.

      When I’m the manager, I’ll assign note taking if needed on a rotation basis and invariably one man will claim incompetence. I’ll just tell him not to worry, he can take a couple of turns in a row before we rotate to the next person until he gets comfortable with it and I deem his efforts acceptable, sound good? But I will never demand meeting minutes. Actions, decisions, issues in our online tracker, usually on screen, done by meetings end, that’s it. People will correct him if it’s their action writ large and they know I will hold them to it.

    5. Frosty*

      This is so interesting to me. I always bring my laptop to meetings if I can. I have ADHD – medicated but still has to be accommodated especially in meetings where people talk on and on.
      In order to stay focused, I have to look at and read other things. I actually read Ask a Manager during a lot of my MBA classes, where I graduated with a 4.48 GPA.

      I would never assume anyone is doing anything in particular with the laptop, and if someone is supposed to be taking minutes, they would be identifiable by their role at the table (or identified on a rotating basis if there is no obvious person to take the minutes).

  14. r..*

    LW1,

    Ultimately the moneys you pay are relatively minor, and because the employer usually can pay this much easier with pretax-money than the employee, it will be cheaper in total if you paid for it, than if your employee paid out of it from their taxed income. I’d say pay it.

    It also is an easy and cheap ESG-win:

    If you pay it, you later have an argument that you’re contributing to people taking public transport instead of commuting by their own car, by pointing out how you take care of them in those odd cases where public transport is insufficient.

    If you don’t pay it, and then later point out how much your company does to become environmentally sustainable, you probably shouldn’t be surprised if that employee pipes up and asks why the company makes it more difficult to commute with public transport.

    1. Alan*

      Yep. My employer brags about their commitment to the environment, part of which is encouraging employees to take public transportation, which they subsidize. If public transportation isn’t available when an employee leaves, they can get a ride home.

  15. r..*

    LW5,

    I always was a fan of ‘fair work for fair pay, and fair pay for fair work’. Alison is right that the time to address your issue was almost a decade ago, and that in the present situation your leverage in negotiations are relatively small.

    That being said, this situation cuts both ways. Normally I would advise looking elsewhere over what follows next, but since you are where you are, and given how close to retirement you are, and given how much more you’ve given than you’ve been given … do ride that “treat it as a work overload situation” for all it is worth.

    The way I read it, you have to make it 5 more months without getting fired, with anything between 5+ and 24 being a nice optional extra. Why feel pressured into doing more than is required to stick out the remaining time?

    Again, normally I’d advise against it, because of the long term damage it can do to your career, but in your specific situation: Eh. Shrug. And if your employer doesn’t like what happens, perhaps they should have thought about the potential incentives they’d set up.

  16. rudster*

    Re. LW3, I’m with the consultant on this one. Aside from not getting branded as the note-taker, typing does make noise, often quite a lot of it depending on your keyboard, and many participants would find this distracting. I can only imagine what it would sound like if several people started doing it at the same time! The laptop screen also partially obscures your face and could make you seem less involved in the meeting. Maybe I’m just an old curmudgeon (haven’t been in a role that requires taking meetings for about 15 years), but even back in the day I’d be hard-pressed to recall any meeting where the person on the their laptop wasn’t the notetaker or running the slides for the speaker.

    1. Mutually supportive*

      I think things have changed a lot now though, it’s much more normal for anyone to take their own notes on a laptop than it used to be and I’m frequently in meetings where more than half of the people have their laptops open.

      often half of those are doing something other than the meeting though, which makes me want to say “why are you even here!?”

      1. Beth**

        In my workplace, a lot changed with the pandemic. We were discouraged from having paper notes/records outside the office, so lots of people (including me) switched to taking notes on their laptops, which were already open for the Teams/WebEx/Zoom meeting.

        It’s rare these days for me to attend a meeting where everyone is there in person, so laptops can be useful for raising your virtual hand to speak in the meeting or following the meeting chat. None of that happened pre-Covid.

      2. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Yeah, I think that’s where I’d land — I wouldn’t assume you were taking minutes, I’d assume you were working on something else!

    2. Orv*

      My experience is when people see someone typing in short bursts, they assume they’re having another conversation via instant messenger, not taking notes. I started taking notes longhand after being criticized for it.

  17. JR17*

    I’m surprised and intrigued by many of the comments about taking notes on laptops! In most of my meetings, at least half the room has a laptop open. I take much better notes on a laptop, plus then I can actually read my notes, and also find them later, none of which is true for me with paper notes. I typically take notes in OneNote, and when I’m really organized, I track my post-meeting to dos directly into Monday dot com (project management software). I am definitely not taking minutes – I can’t take detailed notes and also participate in the conversation to the degree that I need to. But I am far far better off with laptop notes than hand-written.

    The one exception to this is donor meetings. Sometimes I still take notes on a laptop, depending on the donor, our relationship, the setting (often the donor’s home), the purpose of the meeting, etc. But those meetings often have a more intimate feel, rather than a business-y feel (after all, it’s usually not a business meeting for the donor), and a laptop sometimes feels off.

    1. JR17*

      That said, I think the letter writer should listen to the consultant, as it seems she’s speaking to the culture of the organization. I would just find that to be a hard culture to work in!

    2. Allonge*

      Me too on the surprised – yes, I have colleagues who come to meetings with a paper notepad but we also have people like me who go everywhere with the laptop. I simply don’t have time to (regularly) take notes in one medium and transfer them to another.

      Obviously, being the only one all the time could make a difference, so this is not to say OP’s concern is not valid! Although laptop = detailed meeting notes still feels quite a leap to me.

    3. Alan*

      Yeah, I frequently attend meetings where I am the *only* person without a laptop. In my company it would never occur to me that any of these people are taking minutes for the group. They’re maybe jotting down stuff that affects them, but I think most are doing regular work or dealing with e-mail.

    4. LW3*

      Honestly, I think the donor meetings are a good parallel– her advice may be more geared to “senior people to cultivate a particular impression” rather than regular colleagues (who honestly I don’t think could care less). I might try to see how much I actually do need the laptop vs. paper notes (I don’t think I can do without completely) and be more intentional about scheduling “work session” meetings (laptop okay) vs. conversations or more politically/image important meetings.

      1. Single Cat Lady*

        This has been an interesting thread to reflect on! I find that I ALWAYS use pen and paper when I am meeting with people more senior to me. I think it is much easier to demonstrate engagement and to actively participate. And also, I don’t interact with those folks at much, so I think the stakes for making an impression are higher in these meetings.

        With colleagues at my level or below, I more commonly use my laptop. Sometimes it’s because we are going through a document together, but also because we are often collaborating on something and taking notes on the computer is more efficient. I guess it’s the difference between being on the receiving end (like with meeting with superiors) and being more on the same level and jointly working together.

        1. Silver Robin*

          Just adding to the variety:

          I only use my laptop for notes when the shared agenda becomes the shared notes and I am the note taker/facilitator. This is most common, but for my supervisor check in and meetings where I am there to take notes just for myself, I use my notebook. If it is in person, I definitely use my notebook because it is easier to carry than a laptop; I will only bring my laptop if I know ahead of time that I need to show someone something or I forgot my notebook at home (hybrid workplace).

      2. JR17*

        That is an interesting distinction. It’s also interesting to think about where I place my laptop. In the working session type meeting, it’s directly in front of me, I have multiple tabs open, I’m pulling up relevant docs, etc. In the more relationship-oriented meetings, I often leave it off to the side and just pull it over as necessary. But the latter is the type of meeting where I also sometimes take notes by hand (but then don’t get around to transcribing them, etc). But either way, it’s just a few lines, typically.

    5. iglwif*

      I was surprised, too! At most of the in-person meetings I’ve been to in the past 15-ish years, almost everyone present has had their laptop open, at least nominally taking notes. (In actual fact, at least one person is always answering emails / browsing the IKEA website / doing their grocery list / engaging in side conversations in Teams chat / etc.) The designated note taker is always clearly identified at the beginning of the meeting, and the notetaker role usually rotates.

      I like to bring my notebook and a pen and take notes that way, because it’s easier to focus on the discussion if I’m not tempted by all the other things on my laptop. But that’s very personal to me and not general advice I would give to someone else, especially unsolicited.

      That said … if OP is getting this advice from a senior person familiar with the office culture, I feel like the weirdness of the advice probably just reflects the weirdness of the office and they should listen to it!

  18. PX*

    OP3 – this sucks but if the advice is coming from someone who knows how your work culture works, I would take it seriously. Whether or not you want to try and *change* this perception (which as you’ve pointed out is biased and gendered), is a different story.

    Personally I would at the very least try some alternative options and see if they work: paper notebook, tablet, if possible maybe meeting recordings so you can go back and listen later while taking notes etc.

    1. LW3*

      yes, this is where I’m landing too! she doesn’t know our internal culture well at all but does know some specific individuals and REALLY knows the city/broader community, and she’s been really right about stuff before, so I think I will try going back to paper. I’m tempted by e-ink screen tablets I could write on with a stylus but still sync to my note -taking software… but I think the smooth integration might be a leap too far in the future for now :(

      1. JR17*

        Speaking of donor meetings, I used to use an iPad with Apple Pencil and the OneNote app. Still doesn’t solve the problem of my terrible handwriting (which is even worse on a tablet), but for meetings where I’m only taking a few lines of notes that’s less of an issue. And then at least my notes are filed and stores where I can find them again.

  19. Lily Potter*

    #1 Ubers – reimbursing two to four times a year is reasonable, particularly if the late nights are unscheduled and the employee doesn’t have a way to prearrange a ride ahead of time. If you’re a small organization and arent’t bound by a written policy handbook, you might say something like this to your employee: “Portia, I’m going to go ahead and approve this reimbursement request since we asked you to work past your bus schedule. I’d appreciate it if you’d be discreet about this with the rest of the team . You don’t have to lie about it if directly asked, but please don’t proactively tell the team that the company is reimbursing for your Ubers; I don’t want to make it something that I’m routinely asked to do. Your situation is different given your bus schedule.” What you don’t want is a situation where Portia is running around telling people “Oh I can work late anytime – the company’s paying the bill anyway!”

    #3 laptop for notes – it sucks not being able to use your tech of choice for note taking but I’d absolutely follow the advice you’ve been given and ditch it. I think your best options are either an iPad with external keyboard (use sparingly) or a Rocket Book for unlimited handwritten notes that you upload after the meeting. Neither of these laptop alternatives have the convenience of a full laptop, but that’s kind of the point – no one will think someone using them is the minute taker.

    1. Ma Bell*

      Terrible advice

      If other employees are routinely working late their transportation should be reimbursed too. And if they’re members of a protected class and are treated less favorably than the person getting reimbursed under the table, you have a discrimination suit in your hands.

      If you want employees to work late, you reimburse dinner and a ride home. The value they’re adding with the late work easily outweighs these costs.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I agree that the employer shouldn’t tell the employee not to talk about it because it does make it seem more sketchy and like some sort of favoritism that needs to be hid.

        I disagree that the other people should also get reimbursed. They drive themselves so they do not take public transit. Their cost is the same regardless if they worked late or not so they have nothing to be reimbursed for. If another employee has to take uber home for some reason because they don’t have transportation after working late, then the employer can offer the same compensation.
        Honestly, I think a lot of people are blowing this out of proportion. Are the other coworkers even going to know?

        1. PB Bunny Watson*

          I’m honestly fascinated how normal this is for some of you. I’m assuming these are large cities and large companies? I have never worked anywhere that fed you for working late… when your schedule shifts, your lunch break shifts with it. It’s interesting to read what some people find unacceptable that is just part of having a job in a lot of places.

          1. Insert Clever Name Here*

            Let’s say I have to stay at work until 8:30 (happens on rare, unpredictable occasions for me). My normal day is 8:00-4:30, so I’m now working a 12-hour day instead of the 8-hour day I was planning for when I left home that morning. It isn’t a matter of “shifting my lunch” in that case. If you want me to continue working until 8:30 then you’re going to need to feed me, otherwise I’m going to stop working and go get food, delaying the work that I’m staying late to perform.

          2. doreen*

            I think that sometimes “working late” and “working long hours” get conflated. I’ve never worked anywhere that bought me dinner/paid for a cab when my working hours shifted. For example, I worked for a private college and my schedule required everyone in my department to work noon-8pm one day a week so the office was open for evening students. We were not bought “dinner” on those days. During each registration period, we worked from 9am to 8pm for about a week – they paid for dinner then. Another job sometimes involved taking a car service to transport kids to foster homes. If I did that and worked past a certain time, I could take the car service home – but the people who worked regular 4pm to midnight shifts didn’t get the car service. ( I’m not sure if the people who lived a 90 minute drive away were able to use the car service all the way home – that could be $200 or more. And there were people who lived that far who took public transit to work – although it never actually shuts down)

          3. Media Monkey*

            for me, large city (London) and all sizes of companies. Sometimes we work late for a deadline/ pitch/ big client meeting. totally normal and it is generally expected that after about 7.30 someone senior will order in food, and after about 8.30-9 you can expense a cab. and we have plenty of public transport til at least midnight on weeknights (later at weekends). Your schedule doesn’t shift – you are working overtime, but we are salaried (that distinction that exists in the US isn’t really a think here) so you tend not to be paid extra. You might be told to come in late or leave early once the meeting is over to make up for extra hours.

      2. Insert Clever Name Here*

        I drive to work and my costs are exactly the same whether I commute home at 4:30 (my normal time) or 8:30 (happens on rare, but unpredictable, occasions). Why would my employer reimburse me for wear & tear/gas/whatever that is the exact same no matter what time I drive home?

        If I had a coworker taking public transportation and they got to expense an Uber home at 8:30 because the bus on their route stops running at 7, I wouldn’t think twice about it. I would think twice about my boss telling that coworker not to talk about it because I’d wonder why my boss thought I was so petty (and if I heard another car-owning coworker complaining about it, I’d call them out for being petty and acting like my 9 year old when she complains that her 7 year old sibling doesn’t have homework!).

      3. Broadway Duchess*

        Ma Bell, everyone is a member of a protected class. You’ve now added dinner onto a ride home when this is one person who has this issue.

        Equity and equality are not the same things.

    2. Yeah*

      This advice is uncomfortable. It sounds like I’m not asking you to lie, but I’m telling you not to tell truth.

      It is not unreasonable to cover the cost of a maximum of four Uber rides. Assuming you’re in the United States I’m going to say it’s less than $300 over the course of a year. The idea that management is afraid to have other employees know that they are covering the approximate $300 for one employee in a specific circumstance speaks to greater issues.

      1. PB Bunny Watson*

        See, I’m not sure it is even that much, which is why I’m confused about it being such a big deal with the staff person. It would be helpful to know where they worked (what region), how much these rides actually would be, and whether or not people with cars had to pay for parking. On the face of it, it’s just really strange, but again… this is a non-starter for government workers, so maybe that’s why I’m deeply confused.

    3. ecnaseener*

      I’d definitely check with legal counsel before saying anything that could be construed as “don’t discuss this aspect of your working conditions.”

      As for the note-taking — how would switching to an iPad with external keyboard help? Surely it’s the act of typing on a keyboard, not the nature of the attached device, that might make you look like the official note-taker.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Bingo — directly telling the person not to talk about it can run afoul of labor laws in the US. The only thing to say is – Yes Portia we will cover your ubers because the company has you working late, it is not a personal choice.

    4. metadata minion*

      “particularly if the late nights are unscheduled and the employee doesn’t have a way to prearrange a ride ahead of time. ”

      How are you expecting the employee to arrange a ride if not with a taxi or rideshare?

      1. Dahlia*

        “Prearrange” can mean things like getting a friend to pick you up on their way home from something else. That’s different from calling a cab at 9pm.

  20. amoeba*

    I feel like LW1’s situation could quite easily be solved by only covering an Uber home for everybody who wants/needs that. The people who drive can’t really complain because they could theoretically claim that as well – but why would they if they have their car there? Additionally, if somebody is so wiped out after the long day that they don’t feel save to drive, they could also use the offer, but would then of course need to leave their car at the office and arrange their own transport the next morning. I feel like people wouldn’t be likely to abuse that…

    1. Elsa*

      If I were the employer, and an employee who drove to work started complaining that it was unfair that her bus-riding colleague got her late night uber reimbursed, I would be pretty turned off; it’s so petty.

      But I guess if LW1 is really worried that her employees are petty like that, then instead of paying the full cost of the uber, she can reimburse the difference between the cost of an uber and the cost of a bus ticket.

      1. Edwina*

        I see your point, but if my employer subtracted the cost of my bus ride home from a Lyft/Uber ride home, I would see that as very petty on the employer’s part. I used to work for a company that nickel and dimed us like this, and they earned waaaaaay more bad feelings and resentment than they could possibly have gained in actual savings.

        1. Silver Robin*

          it is also absurd because most people are not purchasing individual bus tickets, so it is not like the bus money can easily be moved to cover the Uber instead. Most folks I know who take transit to work get monthly unlimited passes, not taking the bus that night does not save them any money on their transit.

      2. Bast*

        I think it would be a reasonable request to either pay for a taxi/Uber/Lyft home or a motel room for a colleague that drives as well depending upon the number of late hours and the distance the individual has to commute. If someone who regularly works until 5 PM ends up working until 11 PM, I’d be concerned about fatigue setting in and a potential accident. I’d rather just expense an Uber than hear that Report fell asleep at the wheel after a late night and is in the hospital. It seems like such a small ask.

      3. LL*

        Yeah, it’s extremely petty. And if this is in a city, like where I live, the people who are driving to work and paying hundreds of dollars a month to park in a downtown parking garage generally make more money than the people who take public transit (although, of course, some higher earners take public transit as well)

    2. Baunilha*

      I feel like this would fall on the same category as other benefits that not everyone would get to have. My coworkers with kids get a stipend for child care. I don’t have kids, so I don’t get the stipend, and that’s fine — I don’t need it. Employees that drive their own cars wouldn’t need Uber anyway, so it’s reasonable that they don’t get the same expense cover. (If by any chance they had to work late on a day they don’t have their car for whatever reason, I’m assuming they would take advantage of that policy then)

  21. Media Monkey*

    i’m based in london and have never had a company who didn’t allow you to expense a cab home when working late – it would be absolutely expects (along with ordering in food on the company). and that’s a city with plenty of public transport. i’ve never heard anyone who didn’t need that complain that someone else got a benefit they didn’t get (personally it’s much quicker for me to get the tube/ train than a taxi home and i would just expense a taxi from the station to my house). what is the person in letter 1 supposed to do otherwise if they can’t get their usual transport home?

        1. Beth**

          I work in the public sector in London and we pay for taxis if people have to start before 5.30 am or finish after 9pm.

          I even had a taxi paid for me in other circumstances. I had come straight from the airport after an overseas overnight flight into an essential all-day meeting that was only scheduled while I was on vacation. Even though the meeting finished around 6.30, they offered me a taxi to thank me for being flexible about the meeting timing and recognising that I was jet lagged and carrying 2 weeks of luggage.

          Even with that, it was slower to take the taxi home than public transport would have been (normal for London) but I appreciated not having to wrangley luggage.

          In the UK, reimbursement of taxi fares to/from one’s normal place of work can be a taxable benefit, but that’s another can of worms.

      2. Ma Bell*

        So don’t work for the government. OP clearly works in the private sector. And outside of top
        political appointees and senior civil servants, government employees rarely work that late anyway.

        1. Ana Gram*

          I don’t find this to be accurate at all. I’m a government employee but pretty low level. I and other staff in my public facing agency routinely stay late for public meetings or trainings. It probably happens a couple times a month but has been six times so far in September! Employees who use public transport would definitely be impacted.

        2. Insert Clever Name Here*

          I lived in Washington DC for several years and I can guarantee you that there are a lot of incredibly low paid congressional staffers on the hill that are working extremely long hours right now since there is a federal government shutdown looming and no approved budget. When this happened while I lived there, my friends who were on the hill were working brutal hours (and that’s everyone from the newly-graduated entry level friend answering the phones to my roommate who was chief of staff for a [now retired] senator you’ve definitely heard of).

      3. allathian*

        The US government won’t, but that doesn’t mean other governments are as stingy, or assume their taxpayers are as stingy, about employee perks.

        My employer provides free beverages like coffee and tea at the office, and a certain sum per employee for things like Christmas parties (yes, we still call them that, unfortunately) and early summer picnics, although they’ve cut down on these funds during the current financial crisis.

        Granted, my agency is a bit atypical in that we provide services that are unavailable elsewhere and we charge fees for most of those services. The fees are priced at cost, but it still means that we aren’t 100% funded by taxpayers and have just a bit more leeway than some agencies, but even those that are 100% funded by taxpayers have some perks, like free coffee.

        We are normally expected to use public transit when it’s available, but other transportation can be expensed when it isn’t.

        1. Edwina*

          or assume their taxpayers are as stingy Thanks for adding this! I’m happy to pay taxes so other people didn’t need to be homeless or hungry or so that children can go to good schools or even, gasp!, so public employees can have the occasional celebration in the office without having to fund it themselves (or whatever innocuous thing people who don’t work in the public sector take for granted).

      4. Baunilha*

        Not the same thing, but I was an intern at a government agency (not the US) and when the bus drivers were on a strike, we were reimbursed for the taxi rides to get to and from work. I could see them covering Ubers if someone had to work late for work, not personal, reasons.

    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Employee is supposed to either pay for it herself or spend the night in the office apparently. Either one would lead to the employee starting to hate the job and looking elsewhere for employment with no OT.

  22. CorporateDrone*

    LW 3: I feel you; if I don’t take notes in a meeting that I am not actively participating in then I often zone out during the meeting and also I fail to jot down action items. However I feel like the zoning out is more a thing in virtual meetings where people can’t easily tell whether I’m paying attention or not!

    Most keyboards are pretty quiet these days but if this is an in person meeting the noise of the keys and also whether or not taking notes is impeding your ability to make eye contact definitely matter.

    I agree that your specific context matters a lot as well. (Does anyone else take notes?)

    I would ask your colleagues about it to gauge whether or not the note taking is an issue or not. Sometimes a mentor can give mostly great advice but has a blind spot. This is especially true if they don’t have a lot of meetings anymore or if they are still clinging to pre pandemic meeting norms.

    Personally I try to write down the main actionables out of a meeting, and the main points discussed if it’s an important meeting. Fwiw I also got that same advice to not take notes as a woman; but when I asked some of my male colleagues why they didn’t take notes (unless meeting was recorded) it turned out they were unable to multi task like that and deeply admired my ability to synthesize the conversation on the fly.

  23. Katy No-Pocket*

    #4

    > at the request of the party organizer, most of the people in the office submitted marital advice for him to share with his fiancé

    Ummm, is anyone else giving this serious side eye?

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Yeah and a big shudder.
      Not appropriate for any kind of office party; it’s verging into sleazy stag night territory, more to be expected in an exclusionary bro culture.

      1. ecnaseener*

        I wasn’t even thinking of sleazy/work-inappropriate advice; I’ve usually heard of this kind of thing done with genuine advice (“never go to bed angry” and that sort of thing). Which is still, blegh, who needs that from all of their coworkers?

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      I’m more hung up on “and then we all had to listen attentively while he read them all out loud.” This is boring even at a traditional bridal shower; at a work party I want to give my congratulations to the guest of honor, grab a slice of cake, and make friendly but probably mostly work-related conversation with my coworkers until I can politely excuse myself and get back to my desk.

  24. Apex Mountain*

    I completely understand LW3’s concern about note taking and being seen as the “secretary”.

    What I don’t get is why using a tablet or notebook would be different than using a laptop. Aren’t they still taking notes either way?

    1. Malarkey01*

      Just based on my limited experience- laptop note takers take a lot more notes because it it faster where paper or tablet people are taking more bullet points or just things they have to remember.

      I think the difference is the perception of I’m taking action items/critical notes just for me and I’m taking minutes of this meeting for everyone.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Here’s my thoughts

      Laptop= notes are already typed up and easily shared via email. People can take more notes/better notes on a laptop. Also laptop more noticeable.

      Notebook= not easily shared, someone has to decipher and type them up. Not as many notes and often just bullet points of relevant info. Not as noticeable. Also, I think more these days a note book shows you are taking your own personal notes on things that are important to you, where a laptop signifies you are taking group notes.

    3. ScruffyInternHerder*

      Beats me, but (female presenting cis woman here) it is absolutely different in my field.

      Tablet or notebook? Taking personal notes
      Laptop? Taking official minutes.

      I never bring my laptop unless I’m presenting.

    4. iglwif*

      My biggest question is: Why is there doubt about who is taking notes for each meeting? Doesn’t each meeting have a designated note-taker?

  25. Safely Retired*

    Answering the phone immediately can be a reflex, rather than by conscious choice. For someone to break a reflex like that can be hard. Besides staying on top of the person about this, try some things like having them move the phone so it is farther away, barely within reach, or would be answered by the opposite hand. Putting something on top of it that has to be deliberately moved could help too. Anything that gives the mind a moment to override the reflex.

    1. MagnaCarta*

      This would be fine advice if the fast-answerer were writing in looking for a solution, but it would be way too much for the letter writer, who isn’t even this person’s boss, to suggest.

    2. EvilQueenRegina*

      Especially if this employee’s come from somewhere where they were quite hot on phone pick up (as my old job was). This could work, as would some form of rota.

  26. Friday Person*

    Re: LW1, our office is based in a US city where it’s not uncommon to commute by public transit, and policy allows us to expense cabs to/from the office if we’re commuting very early or late due to a work requirement, which would theoretically apply regardless of how the worker generally gets to the office. I don’t know that companies that require intermittent or rare late night work have a moral obligation to do this or anything, but I do think I would be fairly irritated to have to pay a significant amount in cab fare just for the privilege of getting to work unusually long and inconvenient hours.

  27. HonorBox*

    OP1 – I don’t think it would be a bad thing to cover the Uber cost. This is someone who will likely be happier and less stressed about those 2-4 times per year that they have to work late. I do think there is a chance this could snowball on you, and others may end up asking for some sort of reimbursement for additional costs – childcare, etc. In that case, you might look at what you’re paying for those Uber rides and offer it to everyone as a stipend for those later days. Then at least those who need to figure out some additional arrangements beyond their normal day to day can do so, and everyone is operating with the same rules in play.

    And I do want to ask… you are VERY up front with people about these additional hours when you’re making them an offer, right? And the additional hours are scheduled far enough in advance that people can make solid plans, right? Good. I figured. :)

  28. HailRobonia*

    I had to fight to get a Lyft reimbursed for a work even that went until almost 11pm. Yes, public transportation was running but I didn’t want to take a train and then a bus that would get me home after midnight.

    Also this was unpaid time because I “volunteered” to take on this task. That’s in quotes because it was “entirely voluntary” but I was advised that our executive director expected us all to volunteer and at the time I didn’t have the confidence and know-how to politely and firmly decline.

  29. Excel Gardener*

    #5 – I know you’re nearing the end of your career, but two years in a role you hate and are clearly done with is a long time. I’d consider trying to find another government job so you can still pay into the pension but not spend toe years being completely burnt out.

  30. CalicoCat117*

    #2– I’m curious what the letter-writer is referring to when they say their coworker picks up before the first ring has completed. They say earlier in the letter that the phone is set to ring twice at the secretary’s desk before switching to everyone’s phone. Does that mean the coworker is picking up before their first ring is over, but really it’s the 3rd ring? If so, and if the first two rings are loud enough to be heard in the office already, I could see why the coworker would be doing that. Doesn’t help the situation but does seem reasonable to want to pick up the phone on the “first” but really third ring.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      My interpretation is that she picks up before the first ring at her desk is completed (so, she picks up during the third ring that the caller is hearing).

      Good question about whether the first two rings (at the secretary’s desk) can be heard by the rest of the office or not. I agree that if everyone can hear the ringing at the secretary’s desk, picking up as soon as it switches to ringing at all the other desks isn’t an astonishingly fast reaction.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I don’t think it has anything to do with the fastness, whether she hears the other rings or not. But more that she doesn’t allow anyone else to answer the phone because she does it first.

        I’m wondering if her desk is closer to the receptionist area so she can hear the phone and she feels compelled to do it. Maybe she’s worked in another job where it was required to pick up on on by the 3rd ring and she still has that engrained in her.

  32. Yikes*

    LW1: Please pay for late-night Ubers for this employee! My last job was pretty stingy about things like this, and what started as a minor inconvenience snowballed into one of the reasons I took a new role outside of the company.

    Also, if I worked 2-4 late nights a year and were told I couldn’t expense my ride home, I would be far less inclined to stay for those occasional late nights.

  33. Delta Delta*

    #2 – I can’t imagine the audio chaos of phones ringing everywhere in an office at the same time if the receptionist isn’t available/didn’t pick up. Maybe the fast phone answerer just can’t with the sounds and answers really fast to prevent/avoid that. Maybe an answer would be to have a rotation where people take turns physically locating themselves at the front desk so the phone can be answered while doing other work. Another solution, if the phone system does this, is to route the phone to particular extensions at particular times (again, on a rotation).

    1. Hush42*

      This is kind of what I ended up doing when my team was have a similar problem. I don’t know how many people are in OPs office but I had a team of 4 who were responsible for answering the department phone (typically transfers from our customer service department). The phone does not ring that often (I tracked it recently, it’s 4-5 times a day). I had one team member who was constantly complaining that she was the only one answering the phone so we ended up creating a rotation where we split the day into 4 2 hour shifts and each person gets one shift to be responsible if the phone rings at that time. It alleviated most of the complaining, until the same person started to complain that she always got stuck with the “worst” shifts so I implemented a rotation where we cycle through each person picking 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd and so on.

  34. ecnaseener*

    LW3, I think if I were you I’d try making a small adjustment like changing posture when I’m not actively typing. Something about sitting there in the typing position reads as “I’m mainly focused on taking notes.” If you lean back, do something else with your hands, etc., that might help signal that you’re here to participate in the meeting and are just taking a few notes for yourself when needed.

  35. Hawk*

    LW5, were the responsibilities that you acquired from peers or from staff who were senior to you? If they were senior to you, you should double check that the work still is within your job classification. We have a recurring problem in my county government position where staff responsibilities are beyond the scope of their grade. This applies to many levels of government (assuming you are US government, as my best friend works in our state government and my husband is federal and it’s the same for all three of us). I had two coworkers successfully argue that their positions were beyond the scope of responsibility for their job classes, but they did happen at the speed of government (slow). I’ve also had other coworkers who have been unsuccessful.

  36. Somehow I Manage*

    LW2 could have been me several years ago. I had a coworker – Jerry – who would do something similar. It was a small office and Sharon was the one who primarily answered phones. But if Sharon was at lunch, in the restroom, on PTO, etc., the rest of us would answer the incoming calls. Jerry was very quick to answer. And Jerry was also very quick to point out that no one else was helping. At some point, I’d had enough and just said, in front of our boss, “Jerry you aren’t even letting others help. You can’t complain if you don’t give people the opportunity to actually answer. Just don’t answer the phone if it is that big a deal.” Comments became fewer, I answered more calls, and having said my piece, I just ignored the comments Jerry did make.

  37. I wear my sunglasses at night*

    “After that, their replacement refused to take back this part of their job.”

    Wow. And this was 9 years ago instead of like 2 years ago when employers were supposedly so desperate for workers. Dang. Can your lazy coworker please share any other life hacks for not doing any work but still getting paid a full (taxpayer-funded!!!) salary???

    1. spcepickle*

      You don’t know that they are lazy. As a person getting paid with those taxpayer-funds I would say this is a very slippery slope to assume this. So many of us are fighting so hard to do good for you (the tax payers) and getting this kind of attitude.

      I push back on work assigned to me and my team all the time. Sometimes we have a chunk of work that we inherited that when the right person comes along I can give it back. Sometimes skills align better with new employees. Sometimes priority change. The State agency I work for now is undergoing a major priority shift and the truth is when we come out of it people’s jobs are not going to look like they do now.

      Now if the letter writer is working out of the class that is a whole different issue. But assuming that one employee is lazy is not productive.

    2. Orv*

      I have refused to take work that was outside my job description, specifically because I don’t want to end up in the position where I’m permanently taking over the work of people who have been let go. I don’t think it’s laziness so much as self-defensiveness. Have enough jobs where you burn out, quit, and then get replaced by two people and you start to catch on.

  38. NotAManager*

    “All other duties as assigned/necessary,” has, in my experience, been used to justify making a team member who is least likely to complain about it/any complaints are most likely to be ignored, to take on the duties of a failing department. It sucks and (in my experience) there’s nothing you can do about it because the language is vague enough as to justify just about everything from management tasks to custodial responsibilities.

  39. Jennifer Strange*

    #1 – when I worked in DC I sometimes ended up staying late for required work events (often past midnight). Our work always paid for Uber rides home. Once I moved to my new job and was driving to work I would never have been mad that a non-driving coworker got their Uber ride paid when working late and I didn’t. The cost of my ride home was going to be the same whether I left at 5pm or at 1am, but they didn’t have that luxury.

  40. Jolie*

    My instinct on #1 is that it sort of depends.

    If the employer is located somewhere with plenty of reliable public transport, including at night – but the employee lives somewhere a bit off – grid and that’s why their only bus connection is one that stops running in early evenings, I can see how the employer could feel like it’s not their problem that the employee chooses to live far off.

    On the other hand, if that is the only bus that goes to where the workplace is, it is more their responsibility to make sure most people can commute there and back if they want to retain workers – including occasionally paying for taxis.

  41. HSE Compliance*

    Computer note-taking = minutes is incredibly annoying to me, alongside the “no devices! only paper!” push.

    I have nerve issues in my hands. I cannot write down notes for longer than 5 minutes. It will not be legible and I will have severe pain for a couple days. Let me take my typed notes in peace. I’m interactive in meetings, actively contributing, and at my previous employer STILL I would get comments on the laptop, *regardless* of what the men in the room are doing on their laptops, even if I explained ad nauseum about it basically being an accommodation. Or, clearly on their phones and completely ignoring everything around them. Very happy that I am now at a company where everyone’s on their laptops/tablets and no one cares how you take notes.

    Anywho, LW – I’ve ran into this before and *usually* it’s mitigated by being interactive (pointedly) in meetings. If you’re quiet, and generally typing the entire time, it’s going to read more as taking minutes than if you’re typing more sporadically (like you were taking bullet point notes, written!) and asking questions/actively & obviously listening. But there will always be some people who make those assumptions.

    (Caveat here that I do not look at my screen if I am typing my own shorthand notes, I’m watching the presentation or looking at who is speaking, so that may change general perspective as well?)

    1. Nightengale*

      Neurological here too. I spent so much of the 1990s and early 2000s getting accommodations to use a laptop in classes and to type exams. Now that laptops are everywhere, you would think I could just – use one – without it having to be a documented accommodation. Universal design should mean allowing an array of options for everyone. One would hope.

  42. Observer*

    #3 – Notes in meetings.

    I have read about half the comments, but so far I have not seen the thing I was thinking of

    If you are taking short notes rather than transcription style, think about using your phone. It has the advantages of a digital record that you don’t have to go through and pull into your documents / notes / calendar. But it is *clearly* NOT a “scribe” / “minutes taker” type of vibe.

    If you do that, consider making sure you have a higher end phone – depending on the culture you are dealing with that could be a nice added touch of you looking more “techy” than “admin”.

  43. PB Bunny Watson*

    Honestly, without more information, the person referenced in #2 may just have a natural reaction to that. I had to turn my ringer OFF when we had a system like that because it was a reflex. I’d be in the middle of my phone greeting before I realized that I had answered the phone yet again at a time I wasn’t necessarily supposed to. Maybe recommending their coworker turn the ringer down or off sometimes is the answer. The third ring also is a lot longer than it used to be… I could see that driving me nuts if it gets to three rings, depending on how drawn out the rings are.

  44. toolegittoresign*

    LW2 — could you talk to your phone service and have her line taken off the group so it doesn’t ring except on direct calls? I think alleviating her completely from ever having to answer might take the wind out of her sails. If she gets upset by this, then you know she’s just being toxic.

  45. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

    #5: I wish I were only two years from retirement. I feel like I could bear a lot of things knowing I was that close to freedom from corporate life. You’ve been doing the work four times longer than you still have to put up with it. Whenever you feel frustrated, have a daydream about something fun you’re going to do after retirement. I’m sure it will go quickly and you’ll be so ready to be done.

  46. Cinnamon Stick*

    My office has desktops and I miss being able to bring my laptops to meetings. In places where I had one, 90% of people had their laptops. Usually the project manager, who was running the meeting took notes, though they would ask everyone to email theirs to consolidate them.

  47. Cicily*

    Letter 4

    Maybe I just work in a super hierarchal organization or something, but at my job, there is virtually no chance that I could successfully ask a VP to stop having a side work conversation. If they were being incredibly loud and disruptive, maybe I could suggest that they lower the volume, but end the conversation and pay attention elsewhere? No way.

    I think the LW should reconsider doing that unless they are extremely confident in their workplace structure and familiar with all the parties involved.

    1. anon here*

      Yeah, I wouldn’t personally ask our VP-equivalent to stop their side conversation under these circumstances.

  48. Cinnamon Stick*

    If the phone-answerer has ever worked a customer service or tech support job, then it’s been driven into them that the phone needs to be answered on the first or (maybe) second ring. I’ve also worked other jobs where not answering phones immediately is a ding on your review. It will take a while to train out of this.

  49. Apex Mountain*

    I know people are skeptical of these AI meeting transcription tools but I have to say our company uses one called Fathom which in my experience is amazing. It records, provides a transcript, and summarizes the call. It seems incredibly accurate and nobody needs to take notes any more

    Obviously YMMV but this is my experience

  50. Caramel & Cheddar*

    Re: LW 3 — after reading the responses here, I think what strikes me is that a lot of people weren’t ever really taught how to take notes. Notes aren’t a transcription and, frankly, neither are minutes!

    When I was a minute taker, I definitely used a laptop because I can type faster than I can hand write, but what I had to capture for minutes was definitely a different beast than what I need to capture for personal notes. That’s not to say it isn’t helpful to type your personal notes if that’s your preference, just that if you find yourself trying to capture everything like you would if you were taking minutes, you probably need to take a step back and re-evaluate what you’re capturing and why. (I know a lot of people have experienced situations where they need their notes as “proof” when something goes awry, but that seems like a workplace culture issue than it is necessarily a note taking issue.)

    I do think some meeting hygiene could also help here, e.g. ending a meeting by summarizing action items out loud for the attendees, etc. Do you need to take reams of notes if ultimately all you really need to know is that Fergus will call the Whatsit contact by Thursday of next week? Probably not.

    1. Coffee Protein Drink*

      Minutes mean different things to different people. I have worked for someone who insisted minutes had to fit on a one-page Word document. Another pretty much wanted transcripts.

      Finishing with a summary of action items is good meeting practice and I totally support that.

  51. Blarg*

    All I can think of is that scene in Legally Blonde where Elle is in her first class and everyone else has their laptops and she has a fluffy pink pen and little notebook. She upgraded to a (still cute) Mac laptop a couple scenes later.

  52. Dog is my copilot*

    #3 might want to consider a note taking scribe. I find it incredibly helpful for when I want to keep my appearance 100% focused on the meeting but still want to have a record afterwards

  53. Samwise*

    OP 4
    I learned this eons ago for managing backchat during classes.

    If I’m the one talking, I just stop. Right in the middle of a sentence. I stand there in a relaxed position (no crossed arms), and look at the talkers. Look and look and look. Pretty soon, everyone is looking. The room is silent. Everyone is looking. Finally the talkers notice and trail off. Then I start up again, right in the middle of that sentence.

    If a student is presenting and others are yakking, I ask the student presenting to please wait until we have everyone’s attention. Then stand there….etc.

    I’ve done this in staff meetings. I’ve done this to our associate dean (I have a lot of capital, and no I’m not above the assoc dean, I’m way down the food chain).

    Very effective.

  54. WhyAreThereSoManyBadManagers*

    #5: I empathize. At a past job, which was mostly finance/billing focused, the big grand boss regularly ask me to revise and retype their CV/resume for them (always urgent last minute with no notice). Completely unrelated to my actual job. The first time they asked I was utterly confused, I thought maybe they’d mistaken me for a college intern or something. Being afraid of making a bad impression and not wanting to seem unhelpful, I reluctantly agreed. Big mistake, because then they kept coming back every time they a new accomplishment or award or title to add. It was so insulting, especially because this person knew how to type. It felt demeaning and degrading, wish I’d refused the first time but the whole “we can fire you at will for any reason at all and make you do any unrelated task we ask you” sometimes means you feel you can’t refuse. Plus people are just jerks.

  55. golden_handcuffs*

    #5 Are you really as stuck as you think? You can always interview for other positions within the state. Usually retirement, tenure and sometimes even vacation accrual will transfer to the new position with you. Do a little research and see what departments or agencies you might be able to transfer to that are using the same retirement system. It sounds like you’re being underpaid so it might not be too difficult to find another position. If you’re worried about anyone hiring you so close to retirement, you don’t HAVE to retire in 1-2 years, and if you had a job you loved you’d strongly consider staying longer (that’s how I would spin it during any interviews).

  56. Sylvia*

    LW 4 – Is it possible that the VP is hard of hearing, or wears a hearing aid that filters out background noise? My father has this issue and we have to tell him when a concert is beginning, otherwise he would talk through it. He can hear the concert when he focuses on it and enjoys listening to music in general, but people don’t understand his condition and think he’s being rude. I realize that’s not much help if the VP hasn’t mentioned anything but perhaps there are other ways to get his attention when it’s time to be quiet, like dimming the lights.

  57. CTA*

    LW #1

    Depending on your location, you should provide Ubers for your employee’s safety. You’re already requiring them to work past the time local transit operators and you’re leaving them stranded. I’m sure folks will say it’s only a few times a year, your employee knows about the job requirement, others use a car so why should she get a free taxi…but think about the safety of your employees. Do you want to get sued because she was working late as required, was forced to find her own way home, and something happened to her?

    I used to work at a museum in a big city. I forget if it was an insurance assessment or someone else brought it to their attention that they could get sued because lots of employees would be required to work late for events and the employees would have to go home when transit runs less often/stops and lots of those employees lived in not safe neighborhoods.

  58. Sylvia*

    LW #1–some companies encourage their workers to take public transportation for environmental reasons and provide small perks for it. A limited number of Uber rides when working late could be a perk.

  59. Sleeplesskj*

    Re #1: I rely on public transportation and beginning with the first time I was asked to work late, I was told in no uncertain terms that my employer (small firm, fewer than 10 employees) expected me to take an Uber or cab home if I worked past 6pm as a matter of personal safety and that they would reimburse me. My receipts can be anywhere between $30-70 depending on whatever magical variables Uber uses to set their fares and my boss has never batted an eyelash. I’d be mighty upset if I not only worked late but was expected to use part of my overtime pay to then get home (which is what you seem to be expecting.) my company also gives us a dinner stipend (which I believe is actually required if your hourly employees are working 10 hours or more on those days.)

  60. TokenJockNerd*

    LW1, did you intend to come across as hostile to transit riders? there’s a whole lot rolled up on that in the US especially.

    it’s frequently not a choice. it’s a “choice” forced by poverty (something your company has some control over) or disability (something your company does not have control over but cannot discriminate about). Not always, but most of the time.

    If your employee is a poverty rider, and chose “actually, gunna walk to the next bus that’s still running”…because they don’t all stop at the same time, generally….how would you feel if something happened?

    Just pay for the Uber. This isn’t a good hill to die on. “My employee chose for me die on this hill, maybe by being poor or disabled” is a mindset that’s going to harm working relationships and no one needs that. Just pay for the Uber.

  61. autumnal equinox*

    #1: Pay for the uber. You are getting more back in employee satisfaction than you are paying for their commute.

    Also, please consider long and hard why that person is asking you to do it, instead of quietly paying out of pocket, and if that answer is “they can’t afford it”, and your salaries aren’t covering enough for them to 1) have a car, or 2) get uber when they need to.

    Of course, an uber late at night is going to cost a lot, because it can. Which is another problem.

  62. autumnal equinox*

    #3: Yeah this is absolutely a Real Problem.

    What I used to do when I was in person was use a small notepad and jot down very minimal notes. Then immediately after the meeting, I would take those minimal notes and sit down with Microsoft OneNote and do some very heavy notetaking to turn those notes into actual real notes that I will need for the future.

    But that way, no one could think I was taking minutes, and I still ended up with the notes I needed for my own work.

    1. LW3*

      This seems like a goal solution! Unfortunately, I’m often pretty bad at synthesizing my paper notes immediately enough, but I think I’m going to give it another try to have options — aside from not wanting to be tied to a laptop, I also find that I have better notes/thinking when I’m forced to revisit vs. file and forget…

      1. Tangerine steak*

        Using a device that doesn’t stand out so much can help. Laptops often sit as barriers between you and everyone else. Something with a keyboard but can fold the screen back.

        If you don’t need detailed minutes, just a few notes – sitting the laptop off to the side and just pulling it in front for a moment can help. Given you mentor working on other things about coming across as organised rather than bursting with ideas it could also be the combination that’s particularly problematic.

  63. WantonSeedStitch*

    The coworker in letter #2 sounds like my preschooler.
    Him, struggling to take off a snug pajama top: “I can’t DOOOOO it!”
    Me: “want me to help?”
    Him: “NOOOOOO! I want to do it!”
    Me: “OK, but if you’re getting frustrated, let me know, and I’ll help.”
    Him, flailing unsuccessfully: *ear-piercing scream of rage*
    Me: *eyeroll*

  64. newfiscalyear*

    For LW3 – I really think this is a generational thing. I notice that my younger coworkers take notes on laptops as opposed to my GenX and older cohorts which still rely on paper.

  65. NoDevices*

    In a large portion of my jobs, phones, tablets, and laptops were required to be off/closed/not in use unless you were presenting or the person running the meeting. If you were on a computer it was assumed you were reading email or otherwise not paying attention to the meeting.

  66. NoRides*

    OP1, I have taken public transit to jobs for >30 years and I’ve never met an employer that would pay for ubers/taxis home. If I ended up at the office after public transit stopped I spent the night at the office. I would have been delighted to gave the option for a paid ride home instead.

  67. JP*

    I feel like the Uber question is super location dependent. If I was in a city where it was reasonably common for people to get to an office job with public transportation, then I’d definitely expect them to pay for an Uber. If it’s in a suburban area where that’s uncommon, particularly at a certain professional salary level, I think it’s reasonable to expect employees to plan out their own transportation.

  68. Asher*

    LW 1 – do you provide free parking to your employees who drive? If that’s the case, then the cost of 3-4 Uber rides per year is almost certainly less than the benefit driving employees are already receiving.

  69. Tangerine steak*

    LW4 a large part of attending those events is work networking. If your guest of honour is going to take more than a couple of minutes for non work related accomplishments that’s too long. If it’s a major work accomplishment you’re probably looking at 5-10 min max.

    I look for opportunities to get FaceTime on stuff I care about with people who can make change. I certainly wouldn’t be interested in people reading our marriage advice!

  70. Lizzay*

    LW2, next time she says she’s “happy to help” stop her immediately and say “but you’re *not* happy – you complain about it All. The. Time.”

    Otherwise, ugh, just walk away when she starts on, maybe throwing a ‘yeah, I’ve heard this song before’ over your shoulder. Or not, that’s awfully passive aggressive of me…

  71. SBH*

    Forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

    Re #1…I work hybrid, but I use public transportation when I need to be in person for work. This is because I no longer drive due to a disability. If that is a possible factor in this situation, you might consider covering the Uber as a reasonable accommodation. (I think it would be good for the employer to cover it for all who use public transit, just saying that if ADA is a potential factor that might need to be weighed.)

  72. Database Developer Dude*

    1. Uber – does the employee have adequate warning before the stay-later event? If not, I’d say reimburse. If you mess with someone’s schedule at the last minute, you take away their ability to plan properly, and that carries some responsibility with it.

    3. Computer – My handwriting is atrocious. I use a laptop in every meeting I attend. Anyone having a problem with that is cordially invited to osculate my complete, melanated, gluteus-maximus.

    5. Other duties as assigned. – That last part has to come into play. You only have so much bandwidth. If everything’s a priority, nothing’s a priority. I’d seriously consider filing for retirement now.

  73. WetNReady*

    Working late uber: I believe this would be a taxable event if the company pays for the Uber since it is from their primary office to their place of residence.

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