I can’t recommend the colleague who listed me as a reference

by Alison Green on September 10, 2024

A reader writes:

One of my coworkers was laid off two weeks ago. She was an easy choice because her work and attitude weren’t great. Her office was next to mine so we’d have friendly conversations every day and I got along with her, but she yelled at her team constantly and wasn’t available to help them, so most of the office hated her. The reports I needed from her were always late and full of errors and others would have to fix them.

Because we were on friendly terms and her manager doesn’t want to be a reference for her, she’s listed me as a reference and says two places where she interviewed might call me. I really don’t want to risk my reputation by lying and giving her a good reference, and I barely worked with her so there’s not much I could say anyway. I got back to her and said, “I wish you luck finding a job, but I didn’t manage you or work with you much so I’m not a good reference.” But she said it’s too late, she listed me, and can I please tell them she was great to work with. Do you suggest I just don’t respond if a potential employer calls?

I answer this question — and two others — over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

Other questions I’m answering there today include:

  • I’m training someone who keeps interrupting private conversations
  • My boss makes me hire people who never work out
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{ 125 comments }

{ 125 comments… read them below }

  1. ferrina*

    You can say “Sorry, I didn’t know she was putting me as a reference until after it was submitted. I didn’t really work with her, so I can’t speak to her work performance.”

    It’s honest, and it’s a nice red flag for the reference checker. When someone doesn’t even ask before putting down references, that’s usually a sign that they won’t follow professional conventions (usual exceptions for new grads/folks that may not know professional conventions).

    1. HonorBox*

      I was thinking similar. Though I’d edit the second sentence slightly. “I worked with her only very minimally and don’t think I can give you a good perspective on her work performance.”

      I do think that the first sentence would be a larger red flag for me than the second. Combined, I’d probably quickly move on from a candidate I heard this about.

    2. SmellMyFinger*

      why even answer the call or respond to an email?

      you owe no duty to a person who uses you as a reference that didn’t seek pre-approval from you first.

      1. Margaret Cavendish*

        I would do it for the sake of the reference checker, so they don’t spend a lot of time tracking me down. If I just don’t answer, they won’t know if I’m busy, on vacation, retired, or trying to send a message that I won’t give a good reference – so it’s not fair to waste their time trying to call me back.

        1. HonorBox*

          Agreed. If someone is trying to send a message by not answering/responding, the reference checker can’t know that. It’ll be easier in the long run to answer, give a very specific answer to the question, and move on.

      2. Goldenrod*

        I agree with everyone saying to blow off the calls or politely decline if you do talk to a reference checker.

        But I also like Alison’s advice, because I feel like it would be doing a great public service to let someone know specifically that *yelling at their staff* is why you couldn’t give a reference. It probably won’t change someone like that, anyway. I just like the idea of their actions coming back to haunt them in *some* way.

      3. TheBunny*

        Because the reference checker is the innocent victim (for lack of a better word) and they are often lower level employees tasked with completion of the references and will face some level of grief or questions if they aren’t completing the task.

      4. Ellie*

        No duty, but I have my own reputation to consider here. Frankly, I’d want to set the record straight. “I’m sorry I did not realise this person had put me down as a reference and to be honest, I’d rather not” is a line that’s served me well in the past. She has a real cheek pushing back on OP by saying it’s too late! OP owes her nothing at that point.

    3. CommanderBanana*

      ^^ This. I worked a part-time job at a tiny store that only had one person on shift at a time, and got a call from some office that someone who also worked at the store had applied to and listed me as a reference. Except…she’d never told me she was going to, and I’d never actually worked with her, just waved hello and goodbye as we swapped places in the store.

      The only thing I knew for sure was that she somehow managed to be dressed inappropriately for what was literally the most casual workplace ever (seriously, a bodega/smoke shop/drip coffee stop) where the owner usually wore pajamas.

          1. CommanderBanana*

            She had a habit of coming to work wearing those white undershirt tank tops – the kind you buy in the multipack from Hanes – with no bra and cut-off short-shorts. I am sure that in her mind she was making some sort of Statement.

            1. AnotherOne*

              that hands down beats my coworker who came into the office wearing suit shorts during the only two week period- in the 2 years I worked at that job- where we were explicitly told that the dress code would be strictly enforced because clients would actually be in the office.

    4. Mom2ASD*

      Agreed – don’t ignore the reference request. Just don’t recommend her when you speak with the person.

      “I didn’t know she was listing me, and I’m not in a position to comment on her work performance” is all you need to say.

      2. Ellie*

        Yep, or if you like the person, you could offer, ‘I can confirm that she worked here but we really didn’t work closely together.’ For this one though, given the yelling, I’d go further and decline to provide a reference. She doesn’t deserve a neutral or faintly positive reference given she sounds like a terrible manager.

    6. Hyaline*

      Yeah, I admit, I would just hold the line on “I did not work closely enough with this person to comment on her work” and allow that to send the signal it sends. I wouldn’t avoid the calls because I wouldn’t want to keep getting them, and I wouldn’t track her down to request again that she find someone else. She made the choice to list LW, it’s not a good choice, and I’d just let the chips fall.

    7. AcademiaNut*

      I’d go a bit stronger – “I’m sorry, but I asked her not to use me as a reference, so I really can’t comment.” For the first one or two, at least. If she keeps using you as a reference after you’ve asked her not to, you can switch to being honest about the bad work and screaming.

  2. Off Plumb*

    Title: My boss makes me hire people who never work out

    Me: What business is it of yours if your employees exercise – oh. Oh I see.

    4. Presea*

      I thought that as well… you know you’ve been reading sites like Ask a Manager for too long when you even consider the possibility that it’s genuinely what someone meant. I’d be happy to read someone’s fanfic letter about that scenario, lol.

    6. Tess of the D'atabases*

      Job fit would be a better explanation. I was thinking it was a gym and the job was to get you in shape so you could sell the experience.

  3. Peanut Hamper*

    It’s not entirely honest though, because LW did work with them, at least tangentially. I’d go with “I didn’t know she was using me as a reference” (which is a big red flag) “and I’m not really comfortable speaking about her performance” (even bigger red flag).

    2. BW*

      I agree. Damning with faint praise, or no praise, is better than possibly getting sued for giving a bad reference.

      1. Athena*

        The risk of being sued for leaving a bad (and truthful) reference is negligible. I can’t see any lawyer willing to take this on especially since defamation is extremely hard to prove

        1. Mongrel*

          Yeah, the whole “It’s illegal to give a bad reference” thing is so wrong yet annoyingly widespread.
          I’m pretty sure it was an excuse by bad\lazy HR people to justify “We only confirm dates of employment”.

      2. GDUB*

        I asked a wise woman about a potential hire I was considering. She said, “He was…[long pause]…prompt.”

        Nuff said.

    3. Alan*

      The second option works. It’s an awkward position but if you repeat that a couple times and the caller is paying any attention at all, they’ll get it.

    4. Dinwar*

      It’s a normal sort of professional dishonesty, though. It’s like someone setting their Teams/Slack/whatever to “Not Available”–they are, they just don’t want you to know it.

      And while it’s not literally honest, “I didn’t work much with this person” will be understood to mean “I don’t want to give a recommendation” (which will be understood to mean “They’re not someone I’d recommend”). The English language is full of such things. As long as everyone is on the same page it’s not dishonest, it’s jargon.

      As such, I’d go with “I didn’t work with them much” or something similar, and not worry about it.

      1. Hyaline*

        And even if it’s taken literally as “I didn’t work well enough with this person to be a good reference, I don’t know their work at all” the only logical upshot there is “So, this person didn’t have anyone willing to be a reference, knew they’d get a poor reference from former bosses and close colleagues, and listed this poor victim instead.” Endgame is likely the same.

    5. Cardoons are delicious*

      I don’t think the OP has any responsibility to tell the “entire” truth in this situation. There are plenty of statements she can make that reflect the situation accurately enough, and she obviously has no intention to be wildly misleading in a way that would harm her former colleague. It’s a reference checker’s responsibility to have some sense of reading between the lines, and it’s really on the potential future employer to do their their due diligence. OP didn’t consent to be a reference and explicitly said no — so *especially* given this, why does she have any obligation to tell the “entire” truth? (I put “entire” in quotes because this is a situation where folks could argue all day and night about what constitutes the whole truth without getting clarity, IMO.)

  4. HonorBox*

    I’d love to join the wine manager as a part-time employee! That sounds great!

    Having said that, and because I’m unlikely to connect to this LW, I’d figure out how much time is being spent training each person. That equates to dollars that you’re being paid to train when you could be doing other things that potentially bring in more money. Position your request to have “interest in wine” as a requirement as cost savings. Show the cost of training those employees who left because they’re not interested in wine. Request the change and offer to compare the training costs year over year once you have people who do have an interest in wine.

    1. Richard Hershberger*

      What is the overlap between “passionate and knowledgeable about wine” and “willing and able to work for retail wages”? I honestly don’t know how large is this employment pool.

      1. HonorBox*

        Probably small to be sure.

        I think @Stive To Excel outlined beautifully how “interest in wine” or “passion for wine” might be better written in a job description to outline specific needs for the role. But if you’re paying $15/hour, it is going to have to be for someone like me who just wants a fun side job for some extra money that I can just dump back into purchasing wine.

      2. Margaret Cavendish*

        Yeah, I’d want to get very clear on this first! OP has a lot of subject matter expertise, and that’s great, but is it a requirement for their job? Is it a requirement for *every* job in the wine department? Maybe you just need a bunch of people who can stock shelves and show customers where to find the European reds – ie, retail staff, who don’t need specific wine knowledge. Then if the customer wants to know which specific European red would go best with their dinner tonight, that’s where OP can step in.

        Basically there are two options here. Either wine knowledge is a requirement for the job, in which case the store should be aware of this and they should be hiring/ training/ paying people on that basis. Or, wine knowledge is not a requirement, in which case OP should adjust their expectations about the nature of the job and the people who are hired. I hope it all worked out for them, one way or another!

        1. Arrietty*

          I was thinking this too. Just because LW wants an interest in wine to be a requirement doesn’t mean it should be – it depends what “not working out” actually looks like. If perfectly acceptable retail staff aren’t showing enough willingness to become untrained, unpaid sommeliers, that’s quite different from being fine at the actual job but not prepared to spend their spare time doing uncompensated training like LW did.

          I sympathise, because I’m also someone with a tendency to want to become an expert in whatever I’m working on and to be a bit flummoxed when other people don’t put full effort into everything, but it’s not unreasonable for people to just want to stock shelves and run the cash register, without becoming experts in wine.

      3. Caramel & Cheddar*

        It’s not very large. I know someone who was in a similar role to LW’s and they were always surprised that they couldn’t keep people until I pointed out that the job has way too much “homework” compared to most other retail jobs but isn’t compensated accordingly. Sure, you’re expected to know your products in other retail environments, but “Do you have striped shirts?” is different from the kind of expertise you need (or need to develop) when working with something like wine.

        1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Good point! The one time I had a retail job like that – where there was a lot to learn about the products and services, and it took 6 months for any new staff to stop causing more problems than they solved – there was no “homework.” We learned the things while we were on shift.

          I’m curious how the LW is deciding what to train on, when, and in how much detail. There might be a middle ground available where the LW could train new staff on the most essential things, rather than putting in a lot of time training on a bunch of stuff. Though without knowing what she’s training them on and what the requirements are, I can’t know if this is a helpful suggestion.

          For example, if 90% of the questions are about what wine goes with baked fish or roasted chicken, that could potentially be addressed a lot of the time with an info sheet or decision tree for them to study that includes a few recommendations. Like for chicken, here are 3 options for a traditional roast chicken; if there’s some heat/spice, consider these two; if it’s BBQ, these 3 are the best. A lot of stuff beyond that should be answered by the LW.

          1. Turquoisecow*

            Yeah I worked in a small independent liquor store and I knew almost nothing about wine nor did my coworkers (the owner did, but he didn’t think it was super necessary for us to). 99% of our wine customers were people on their way to one of the many bring your own beverage restaurants nearby, so they would ask something like “what’s a good wine to have with an Italian food,” and my coworkers and I (college aged people making about minimum wage and with very little knowledge) would direct them toward what most other customers purchased for that. “Most people enjoy this specific brand of Chianti at X Italian place,” was more than enough for most of them, questions about flavor were often written on the bottles themselves. I’m sure OP would like his staff to have more knowledge than that, but for minimum wage retail (or even slightly better paying retail), he may have to be content with “decent at customer service,” which is not a bad thing in retail.

            1. sparkle emoji*

              Yeah, for my area $15 is on the lower end for retail so decent customer service would be reasonable to want but that would be about it.

      4. Starbuck*

        Yeah I assume this is the main problem, they are paying minimum wage or barely above it. You might get lucky (like with the LW) and find someone with passion who’s willing to work for low wages (or stay on long enough to accumulate enough raises to make it a decent job) but…. entry level means entry level. Expect minimal experience, and even less willingness to study on their own time. That frankly is not reasonable.

      5. T.N.H*

        This is a huge part of this particular problem. I am a sommelier (and a lower level one at that) and I get hundreds an hour for my wine classes/events/consultations. I will say it drives me a bit batty when I go into a wine store and the staff gives me incorrect information — I would much rather an “I don’t know.” I can spot the blatant falsehoods but the average consumer can’t and it makes me sad that they’re getting a bad wine experience.

        OP, a lot of stores have cheat sheets or let you use apps like Vivino (not in front of customers) to bridge some of the gap. Maybe there’s a technology solution to cover part of this.

        1. Boof*

          Oooo… if allison does more “interesting jobs” interview I hope she picks you / sommelier!!! (admittedly I don’t actually like alcohol much nor do I want to like alcohol more but I love the je ne sais quoi and the chemistry and stuff )

      6. Potsie*

        I agree. I think part of the problem was that OP had unrealistic expectations on part time help. They might need to settle for someone who can run the cash register and restock the shelves and make it clear when OP is in the store for customers who want more help.

        1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          Yes exactly. A local organic shop is run by a coffee enthusiast. He roasts the beans himself. I asked an employee where the coffee was, because it wasn’t next to the tea as usual. She led me to the special coffee corner. When I started asking about coffee that was good and strong, she referred me to her boss, who was only too delighted to talk to me about coffee.
          (He didn’t sell me strong coffee, he told me how to adjust the strength on my coffee maker, and nobody has complained about the strength of the coffee since).

      7. Turquoisecow*

        Yeah this is probably at least part of why OP hasn’t gotten any employees with wine experience or knowledge – if it’s a part time or retail job, it’s very unlikely anyone with that experience is going to be willing to work for retail wages, unless they’re retired. I’d bet they mostly are hiring college students or similar.

      8. sparkle emoji*

        Yep. IME with retail, your pool would already be limited by the fact that my state requires 21+ to handle alcohol. Asking for people who will spend their limited retail wages on sampling wines would whittle it down to nothing.

      9. Wonderland*

        it’s not even “knowledgeable about wine” it’s “interested in it enough to geek about it when paid to do so”.

    2. MagnaCarta*

      Is all training happening on the job? LW mentions that they have done their own learning in off-hours. That is a LOT to expect of a part-time, junior employee! If that’s happening here, LW also needs to make the case that all training must be fully covered by training hours.

      1. Hannah Lee*

        I get the sense that LW is not expecting support staff to dive in, self-train like she did.

        But she is looking for support staff who are interested in learning more, so if she takes the time to train them they will be engaged, interested and retain at least some of the information after the conversation. ie someone who is going to over time become more useful as a support person to the ‘expert’ in the shop.

        Even something as basic as recognizing that Pinot Grigio is white and Pinot Noir is (usually) red and being able to steer a customer looking for one of those to the right part of the store, or knowing that Rose is a big seller in the summer months and might be a good thing to aim a customer at who is looking for a picnic wine. That kind of stuff.

    3. HailRobonia*

      I’d be “great” as a wine shop employee. “I can recommend this vineyard, the labels have really cute badgers. If badger’s aren’t to your taste, we have some ones featuring excellent oldy-worldy-looking woodcuts as well as many different kinds of birds!”

      1. Hannah Lee*

        Hah! As someone who has been known to select a wine because I liked the animal on the label, I would hire you.

        I once discovered a great and not super expensive Italian wine because it had a cool looking, pretty bird on it. And then was so crushed when they released their next vintage and realized they changed the bird species for each new vintage and I could no longer buy the pretty bird bottle)

          1. Good Enough For Government Work*

            I’m a gin drinker who, when in a bar or pub, will always try to pick the gin I haven’t tried before.

            If there are multiple options, the prettiest bottle or prettiest label always wins. It’s worked out surprisingly well!

        2. She of Many Hats*

          My current two favorite wines I chose because of the artwork (antique map & fantasy night scene)

    4. Orv*

      I suspect the subtext here is that LW is overqualified for their job, and the job really isn’t paying enough to hold people’s interest or attract people with any amount of expertise. Most people are not going to spend their free time educating themselves to be better at a low-wage retail job.

      1. Just another manic Monday*

        Orv, you have said what I was going to say. LW2 should look into getting a job better suited to their interest level and training/knowledge – i.e. not where they currently are, where they will not have to deal with retail employees who could not be bothered one way or the other. Maybe go all the way and become a Sommelier.

      2. MassMatt*

        I suspect the owner/boss does not appreciate the expertise of the LW and assumes anyone hired can do what they do. Clearly they cannot, and IMO it’s a pretty disrespectful assumption to have.

        I see the point that expecting lots of homework to learn about wine might be a big ask for a regular PT retail job, but honestly aren’t there lots of people interested in wine, and shouldn’t the owner try to at least look for them?

        I have no idea what the employment prospects are for those with wine knowledge, but my hunch is there are probably not a lot of gigs where people get paid for something they are passionate about. I’m thinking how competitive veterinary schools are, and how low-paying their internships generally are, or how many people apply for jobs in gaming, or hobby shops. This might be a really great gig for the right people!

        1. PhyllisB*

          I agree. I used to be a wine drinker and I would have really enjoyed working in a liquor store. I wasn’t an expert by any means but I could recommend something to people who liked sweeter wines ex: Moscato, or something light in the summer rose’ or pilot gris. My son worked at a liquor store and there were a lot of times he would call and say, “Mom!! I have this dude here and he wants to get something special for his anniversary and his wife only likes whites. What should I tell him?” I would make a couple of suggestions and then later he would tell me husband came back thanking him for his help, and the wine contributed to a wonderful evening.
          This is the kind of knowledge OP should be looking for.
          The store my son worked at wanted to cultivate their reputation as a good wine shop so he would pay to send his employees to tastings and trainings. He even paid for one to become a sommelier.
          If you employer cares about upgrading the store image and increasing sales this is what he should be doing. If he doesn’t care that much, then OP should be seeking employment somewhere that does.

      3. Carmina*

        Yeah exactly – I think the LW’s expectations may be significantly out of line with what the job’s supposed to be. Turnover of junior retail staff is pretty typical and expected, so there’s usually not a lot of training expected beyond the basics.

        The manager may not feel that those people “haven’t worked out” – if they stayed a few months (sounds like they have since it’s 6 “in the last few years”), reliably showed up during this time, didn’t drink on shift, and haven’t stolen anything, the manager may feel this is going swimmingly!

        Having the conversation Alison’s suggested will probably clear that up, but I’d go in hedging my phrasing a bit more, otherwise the LW risks seeming wildly out of touch, and only move forward with the argument if the manager agrees that the turnover is in fact a problem.

    5. Troubadour*

      When calculating costs, add the HR costs of advertising, interviewing, hiring, and then however they cope when the person leaves again. It’s *way* cheaper to hire the right person once than a long succession of wrong people even before you quantify the training costs – add the two together and it should be persuasive to any halfway sensible manager.

    6. WheresMyPen*

      I’m interested why so many people are applying for jobs at a liquor store if they don’t have any interest in alcohol, and why they’re then quitting because of that. I don’t drink, don’t know anything about alcohol and would never know how to recommend it, so I wouldn’t apply for a job at a liquor store. I’d assume someone who does would at least know to recommend a white wine with chicken or red wine with tomato pasta. Are people really quitting because they just aren’t interested in wine? It seems normal to me to put ‘interest and knowledge of alcoholic beverages and pairings’ etc. on a job description for a liquor store, unless they really only need people to serve customers at the checkout. Just like I wouldn’t hire someone in a video game store who doesn’t know anything about video games.

  5. ecnaseener*

    Re the wine question, I sort of think that screening for just “interest” in wine won’t cut it. Many people like wine enough to act interested in it in a job interview, but don’t actually have the level of interest that they need in order to learn the trade. And if LW isn’t involved in the interviews, then the store manager probably isn’t digging any further than “are you interested in wine? Yes? Great!”

      1. Ellie*

        Yep, and then come prepared with a lot of questions about wine. “Do you drink wine yourself?”, “What is your favourite wine region?”, “If someone walked in here and said they were looking for something dry, what would you recommend to them?”, etc. Their attitude will tell you a lot. The store manager might just be bad at interviewing.

    2. Hyaline*

      Yeah… That was the paradox I found myself coming up with. You don’t actually need experience to do this job, but how can you demonstrate interest without experience? If the boss was willing to let LW sit in on the interviews and ask questions they could probably gauge interest fairly well (going deeper with their questions, engaging them in conversation, etc.) But if that’s not going to happen, I’m not sure how you screen for interest without requiring experience.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      This. I would LOVE to work in a wine shop. Am I in any way qualified to work in a wine shop. Absolutely NOT. But I would be very enthusiastic throughout that interview.

      1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        And that enthusiasm would presumably translate into a willingness to learn and retain info about what kind of wine to recommend depending on people’s taste, the food they’re serving, and their budget. Just like it did for OP. Then the pair of you would work really well together and get on well too.

    4. Turquoisecow*

      I think what OP needs is not necessarily interest in wine, because lots of people are interested in (drinking) wine, but a willingness to learn about the products they’re selling so that they can better help customers. So the interview questions shouldn’t be about wine exactly, but about their willingness to learn new things. I’m not sure exactly how to get at that – maybe asking them about new knowledge or skills they’ve learned or taught themselves? Someone who taught themselves a language or how to knit or woodworking or something sounds like the sort of person who would start a retail job and think “hey this stuff is interesting, I want to learn about what I’m selling.”

      I used to work at a supermarket. There were some people who worked there who could tell you all about the meat, seafood, or produce they sold, and some who did their job without any interest or curiosity in learning about the products. The ones with interest and curiosity would sometimes become department managers or go on to work in corporate merchandising. OP wants the produce guy who can tell you how good the tomatoes are or the meat guy who can tell you why this cut of meat is the best for what you’re cooking, or the seafood guy who can pick out a good tuna steak and where they came from. But that isn’t necessarily a skill you need to work retail, and it’s hard to find for minimum wage.

      1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        I think the interest does have to be there. I mean, I am curious about a whole heap of different things, to the point that I have lots of specialist subjects listed in my professional profiles on websites where people look for freelancers with my skills. I might be able to drum up enough interest to do jobs in certain areas. But for finance, for example (which is a well-paid specialist subject), I find it so utterly boring, I would be worried about making mistakes because I just can’t be bothered to check up on details.

        I’m very interested in nutrition, but I couldn’t tell you about the nutritive value of meat because I’m also vegetarian. I’m interested in sport and worked with a chain of sports shops for a while, but when they asked me to work on texts about fishing lines I had to refuse point-blank, because I’m a vegetarian, I couldn’t start to think about the right kind of hook to catch this or that fish!

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’d love to see the difference in applications if OP posted their job link to a forum for home brewers, or at the winemaking supply store.

  6. Hannah Lee*

    For LW #3, I had a boss once who would do something similar, pressure me into hiring quickly no matter if the candidate pool didn’t include any good candidates. He had a saying he’d trot out when I’d push back: “Bad breath is better than no breath”

    At one point while dealing with yet another failing new hire, who was obviously not going to work out because she displayed a non-winning combo of poor attention to detail, lack of willingness/ability to learn new info or ways of doing things and a head-strong attitude/ habit of forcefully insisting she was right (when she was most certainly not), I fired her. And was clear to him that “No, bad breath is NOT better than no breath … it just stinks up the place and makes it tough for the rest of us to breathe” and got final say on our next new hire. It took a bit to find them, but they were a keeper.

    LW, after a series of failed hires, and with your track record at this place, you might be in a good position of really push back on this. It’s not an unreasonable stance to require “interest in wine and willingness to learn more about wine” of employees at a wine shop. And it might not be an unreasonable stance to make clear that if he keeps up his insistence of hiring people who are likely not going to work out, wasting your time and effort and failing to ever give you competent support staff, the associate position is not the only one he’s going to need to fill. (ie you’ll take your self-taught knowledge & skills, experience (and potentially client base) elsewhere.)

  7. MuseumChick*

    I had someone ask me for a reference whoes work was not good at all. I felt bad for him and tried to get out of by saying, “Well, you and I only really worked the one llama grooming project so that’s all I could really speak to.” they put me down anyway. When I got called I said basically the same thing, “Xandar and I only worked on this one llama grooming project.” They tried asking me questions about other aspects of his work and I just said, “I can’t speak to that.”

  8. SHEILA, the co-host*

    I think another potential issue here is that this is a retail job, the pay might be more than minimum wage but not spectacularly so. The turnover is always going to be somewhat constant at gigs like this, and I think OP needs to accept some level of turnover and training is always going to be necessary. That being said, hiring people that at least have some interest in wine in general might at least slow the churn a little bit.

    1. Strive to Excel*

      I was thinking of that too when writing my comment. Maybe Boss & OP need to reframe the job as being one where you do basic retail things, just in the wine department (stocking/labelling/cleaning/whatever else is needed) so that OP can be free to set up tastings or make suggestions or create displays. Things that require more skill.

      1. Potsie*

        Yep. Instead of expecting the person they hire to be able to make recommendations, spend time making displays of wines OP recommends for that season with descriptions of why. Make a cheat sheet for the employee for common things they will be asked and a popular wine to recommend. For example, if they want a bold red recommend wine A. If they want a wine to go with fish, recommend wine B.

      2. sparkle emoji*

        And if LW needs a back up, look for one LW double and pay them for that work and knowledge, rather than looking for every wine dept employee to be LW doubles at entry level retail pay.

    2. SHEILA, the co-host*

      Nesting fail, this was meant to be a reply to HonorBox and I think Richard and I posted at the same time.

    3. constant_craving*

      Yeah, I think that’s very true. And this is an awful lot of training to expect for a retail position- LW’s attempts here may actually be exacerbating turn over.

    4. wordswords*

      Yeah. It sounds like some level of interest in wine IS useful, but that also, OP should maybe reflect on what’s a realistic level of knowledge and training to expect from someone in this position, for the pay it provides. Are we talking “know a few kinds of white and red, remember some basic stock answers about fish vs beef and a couple of standard recs for sweet vs dry”? That makes sense! Especially if OP can provide some recommendation lists or flowcharts or whatever for the employee to refer to and/or to post in the store. And this is the kind of level where some interest in wine may well make the difference between “well, for a sweet red, I’d recommend X or Y [the same sweet reds I tell everyone because OP pointed them out to me for the purpose], I think they’re both pretty good” vs “uhhhh I don’t really drink wine to be honest but I think X and Y are sweet…?” vs a disinterested shrug.

      On the other hand, if we’re talking “get familiar with lots of our stock, understand the nuances of merlot vs malbec, be able to make personalized recommendations based on my own tasting experience, be able to recommend a full-bodied jammy red from Argentina if asked”… then that one’s gonna be a lot harder to find in this situation. And if OP is subconsciously expecting that lots of other people are going to be up for training to get there on a retail salary, it’s worth rethinking those expectations, even if they had a great time learning this stuff themself.

  9. Strive to Excel*

    For the wine manager, I’m guessing that what you mean when you say “interest in wine” is “I would like someone who’s got a palette or a trainable palette & sales/recommendation skills” and what people are seeing as interest in wine is “I’ve always wanted to learn more about wine!” And then 6 months down the road they’re thinking “meh, this isn’t as cool as I thought it was going to be”.

    Instead of asking for “interest in wine”, I’d list job duties such as:
    “Expected to be familiar enough with product to recommend pairings”
    “Expected to be familiar with [whatever Wine Review/new product sites are most popular/wherever you get Wine News from] and adjust recommendations/displays to match”
    Insert whatever other job duties you’re finding require an interest in wine (I do not have an interest, so my advice is pretty limited!). But keep it tied to “what things/activities are these people struggling with”. Then with that go to your boss and give him the “this is taking X amount of my time, costing you Y money, for people who are failing at Z tasks”.

  10. I should really pick a name*

    #2

    When I spoke to him about it, he felt that the other members of the team resented him

    I’m curious what happened at that point. Did the conversation end there?
    There seem to be a number of letters where the LW addresses a problem, the employee disagrees, and that seems to be the end of it.

    1. GenX, PhD, Enters the Chat*

      Same. Resented him for *what* exactly? I bet he thinks they resent his superior intellect or some hogwash like that. When in fact they don’t like his jerky behavior.

  11. Hannah Lee*

    LW#2 – Alison gave great advice.

    Make it crystal clear that his behavior is putting his continued employment in jeopardy, and the expected impact on his chances of getting his degree if he doesn’t take steps to improve.

    You gave some great examples of behaviors that need to change, ASAP.

    The first good news is that every one of them is 100% in his control. He can NOT interrupt his coaches during training, he can NOT interrupt co-workers when they are speaking with clients, he can NOT redirect conversations towards himself. Easy peasy.
    The other good news is that you’ve observed, experienced his disruptive behaviors first hand, which can shut down his “team members resent me” response.

    The bad news is that he’s responded to valid feedback from someone in authority by trying to shift blame, deflecting facts with emotions and imagining other people’s motives. That is immature, unprofessional and doesn’t change his situation at all (because even if other people DID resent him, he still should not be interrupting and pulling focus unprofessional)

    So I don’t have high hopes he’s going to rally and change his ways.

    Who knows, maybe one more focused conversation, with stakes made VERY clear, and a description of what changes you need to see immediately will be a wake up call.

    But I’d have him on a VERY short leash, like one and done, or one “this is the EXACT type of behavior I was talking about, you need to stop that” and he’s out the second time it happens.
    (any more chances is doing a disservice to EVERYONE ELSE he works with who is going to who is putting up with his disruptive behavior) That won’t be you sinking his chances at success, that’s entirely on him.

    1. HelloWorld*

      I encountered someone who interrupted frequently in a non-professional context. She vented to me and a few others how her managers complained that she interrupted others at work. She got very upset and said how others interrupted her first!

      Not long after, she was let go from the job. Then a few other jobs didn’t work out. She ran her own business after.

      Other than this trait, she’s a capable person. I wasn’t in a position that she *was* the one who interrupted others. Not sure if it’s her upbringing or a disability that caused her interrupting others every single minute.

    2. Elbe*

      From the description, it seems like the issue isn’t just that he’s interrupting people (talking while they are talking), but that he’s speaking out of turn and derailing conversations and meetings.

      Honestly, that is a much bigger problem and it’s a much harder fix than just reminding him to wait until people are done before he starts talking. Severe issues like this stem from a truly fundamental misunderstanding of social dynamics and his role in conversations.

      When the LW tries to coach him on this, they should be very clear about conversational hierarchy – who is leading the conversation, who controls the agenda, etc. LW should spell out what his role in the conversations is (to listen, to learn, etc.) and make it clear that him trying to guide the conversation (or even to contribute, in some cases) is an overstep and that the negative reactions he gets from coworkers is because he’s stepping on their toes.

      If he tries to argue or push back, the LW should consider letting him go. Often, adults who behave like this act this way specifically because they reject any feedback about how they are affecting others. If he’s not willing to work to improve things, the LW shouldn’t put in any more effort.

  12. She of Many Hats*

    For the Wine LW – can you talk your boss into hiring for other departments and seek transfers from those departments that are interested in wine? They already have the basic store training, they have an interest in the product, and you can focus on expanding the actual wine knowledge.

  13. Ivyflies*

    I don’t understand the advice for #1. Why go back and try to save her from herself? You already told her not to use you. Why dodge interviewers calls when you have an opportunity to dish out karma? Maybe I’m more vindictive than the average person, but I feel like she should reap what she sows here. I would be honest if an interviewer reached out “I told her not to use me as a reference. I don’t have a good working experience with her because of a, b, c.” Don’t feel responsible for her job hunt – she’ll eventually land a job where the hiring managers don’t do their due diligence. I feel like you should reward the hiring managers who are doing their due diligence by being honest and saving them from a bad hire.

    On that note, what’s the point of calling references if no one’s going to be honest with you? Encouraging OP to dodge giving a bad reference reinforces the behaviour of hiring managers that skip reference checks all together because they see it as a useless exercise because no one is honest anyway. And people who are terrible at their jobs keep getting hired without having to change their behaviour to the detriment of all.

    1. Hiring Mgr*

      Personally if I can’t give someone a great reference, I won’t give them one at all. There’s no responsibility or obligation for anyone to torpedo someone else’s chances at a job, even if that person is dumb enough to put someone as reference without their knowledge

      I won’t lie and say they were great, but I’m not giving them a negative reference either. But that’s just my take on it – others clearly feel differently

      1. Ivyflies*

        I guess my view is that I’m not torpedo-ing their chances at a job. They’re torpedo-ing their own chances by being bad at their job and not trying to change (I feel very differently about someone who tries, but just isn’t a good fit… I’m talking about the willfully incompetent here). I’m just the messenger ensuring they are justly rewarded. The hero the city deserves some might say :P

        1. amoeba*

          Well, especially in the US, I wouldn’t want to be responsible for somebody not finding another job, losing their health insurance or potentially even their home, etc. If the consequences of prolonged unemployment are that dire, I guess a lot of people don’t want that on their conscience, even if the person wasn’t great at their previous job.

    2. Jojo*

      When I was a retail manager, we were directed by my company to not say anything bad in reference checks because the company saw it as a potential legal liability. Every reference check I ever did, the other manager clearly had been given the same instructions. However, I never hung up from a reference check without knowing if I should hire the person or not. It’s amazing how well you can send the message that someone will not be a good hire without ever saying they won’t be a good hire. Tone of voice, and things unsaid have an impressive ability to say a lot.

      1. pally*

        Yeah- one time I called a reference and I could almost hear her smiling. Turned out to be the best hire I ever made.

    3. Cats and Dogs*

      Also when I was hiring for a position (long before I found AAM) I called a reference who I knew personally. They didn’t get back to me and I assumed they were busy. Little did I know they were evading the call and called back after we hired the employee who needed A LOT of hand holding. Luckily it was for a short project. But it never occurred to me that they intended to send a red flag!

      1. Ivyflies*

        Honestly, I would be pretty peeved at that reference. Especially since you knew them personally. Letting you hire someone who they know is going to cause you grief and – depending on your company politics – who could be really hard to get rid of (luckily that wasn’t the case). That’s a special kind of hell to deal with. And sure you could maybe have read between the lines of the dodged calls, but is it really that hard for them to answer your call and subtly give you a heads up.

  14. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    LW1, like in one of the letters yesterday, any consequences that come from your former co-worker putting you down as a reference without asking you are 100% on that co-worker. So do whatever you think is best. You can ignore the calls, tell any callers that you didn’t work directly with her all that much and can’t really comment, or give them intel that there were important issues. If you go the latter route, it’s a kindness to let her know that so that she stops listing you as a reference.

  15. Trick or Treatment*

    #3 (Wine): I feel like there’s a difference between no experience and no interest in wine. Yeah, the manager may be right that you can train up people (although it’s still unfair that it falls on LW without looking at their other workload), but maybe they need to be told in more explicit terms that an interest in wine is a critical job requirement. Prior experience would be a nice bonus, but if they have none and an interest to gain it, that could work. Neither experience nor interest is the real issue.

  16. Delores*

    If you live in California, unless you can give a positive review, only confirm that you worked with her and the pertinent dates. If they ask for more, simply say that’s all you can contribute. They will get the message. Don’t put yourself out there legally for giving a bad review, even if it’s true. It can come back to haunt you.

  17. The Wizard Rincewind*

    With the wine employee, I get the feeling that the job description and the actual job duties may not be matching. If people think they’re applying for a simple stocking position and it turns out they are expected to be on the floor and conversing with customers, that could be the crux more than lacking a passion for wine. I mean, I didn’t have a “passion” for bath gel, but when I worked at Bath and Body Works, it was expected that I was knowledgeable about the product, could converse about it with customers, help recommend things for them, etc.

    I don’t think OP was unreasonable in wanting people with an interest in wine in the position as described. Making it clear that the ability to learn is part of the description would definitely help. The fact that the turnover is so high should be telling the boss that the math isn’t mathing, so clearly something needs to adjust.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I say this as someone who has these over-and-above tendencies herself: I wondered if the OP was taking the position a lot more seriously than her boss intended. Her boss probably appreciates her expertise but isn’t thinking about the time and effort behind it and isn’t actively looking to hire (or pay) another person with that level of skill. He just wants a warm body to sell wine. (I noticed it’s a liquor store, not a specialty wine store.)

      1. anonymouse*

        this. you can’t care more about the job than your boss cares. it really sounds like this person cares more about the job than their boss expects them to care. if you do that, you have to do it purely for your own satisfaction, you can’t expect anyone to appreciate it or for other employees to do the same.

  18. Freelance Bass*

    My husband recently went through something similar. His report’s contract didn’t get renewed, in part because she did about a third of what was asked of her. A few weeks later, he got a call from a reference checker— she didn’t even give him a heads up that she was listing him.

    1. Elizabeth*

      A caveat here – the hr manager at my last job had a habit of calling supervisors for references if the candidate said they could be contacted (the ATS required that supervisors be listed). I received a similar cold reference check for a report who I didn’t know was looking. It may not have been the candidates fault. It’s a terrible practice.

      1. Freelance Bass*

        In this case, the hiring manager specifically said that Candidate had listed my husband as a reference. But that’s good to keep in mind for the future!

  19. Elbe*

    It seems like she knew the LW wouldn’t want to give her a reference, and this was her way of pressuring the LW into it. She probably thinks of the LW as someone friendly and nice, who wouldn’t want to ruin her chances of getting a job after she’d been laid off. The LW is fine just ignoring the calls when they come in. It will send a message without her actually having to do anything at all.

  20. An Australian In London*

    So much fear/uncertainty/doubt about the liability of giving a bad reference in the USA, UK, and Australia.

    No one talks about the liability of the new hiring company suing because a reference check withheld materially relevant information that lead to a loss in hiring that person. There have been successful claims for misrepresentation in these scenarios in Australia. I haven’t checked in the UK or USA.

  21. Empress Ki*

    I am curious to know how the new company can prove that the employee was bad at their former job. It is even possible that a bad employee becomes a good one.

      1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

        Well, if they claim to have skills that they demonstrably don’t have, and that they claimed to use at the old company, I’d see that as an indication that they were bad at their job. And some jobs really are very specific-skill-based.

      2. An Australian In London*

        From an Australian law firm:

        “On the other hand, if a referee withholds needed information, such as a history of criminal activity in the workplace by the employee, or findings of harassment or bullying, it could lead to a claim of misrepresentation against the referee by the hiring company.”

        I am not a lawyer in any jurisdiction, but through my talent for administrative belligerence, I read that as a new employer saying, “We would not have hired them had we known these things; we hired them and suffered damages directly related to the withheld information”.

        From a recruiting site in Australia, backing up my interpretation:

        “Previous employers can be sued for losses owing to false references provided about a candidate during a recruitment process. The new employer can seek for compensation in damages owing to losses incurred due to things such as remuneration, cost of training, and severance packages.”

        For anyone who wants to get deep into the legal weeds on this, Australia has a defence of “qualified privilege” for what would otherwise rise to the level of defamation. It’s a leftover from British cases where servants dismissed for stealing sued their former masters for defamation from a bad (truthful) reference. The British courts said future employers have a right to know.

  22. Squirrel!*

    Fortunately when the reference thing happened to me I was on vacation with my family, on the way to a national park with limited cell service. Which I told my former coworker when I got his text – I can’t remember if it was a request or a notification that he had already put me down as a reference. Probably the latter, because I got a phone call during lunch which I ignored, but the voice mail was from the principal of the school where he was applying. Didn’t return the call – like I said, family vacation, and he didn’t really want me talking to the potential boss anyway! That dude was a hot mess, the principal should have gotten rid of him sooner than she did. As his unofficial mentor I tried to help him but he’d complain about how terrible the kids were and how he needed help, then when I would try to give him suggestions he would change the subject with random sudden non-sequiters.

    1. Cats and Dogs*

      This story proves why people should tell the truth!! Kids suffered due to ghosting a person doing due diligence.

  23. Rosacolleti*

    #1 honestly, most people who conduct reference are so poor at it you mightn’t even need to divulge anything much. I get calls often and am amazed how little they ask and frankly if they can’t be bothered asking the proper questions I don’t see why I should offer info. I’d never ever lie on a reference check call though

  24. Raida*

    “…she’s listed me as a reference and says two places where she interviewed might call me.”

    “I’m sorry Jane, you should have asked if I could be a reference for you. If someone calls my options are A confirm you were employed alongside me and nothing more or B tell them… what? That you’re a bad manager? Because I certainly won’t be lying for you, friend or not.”

    Possible I’d lose a friend? Yeah. But I don’t have friends that rely on me to maintain their delusions. Hell, I’d tell her “I feel it’d be ethical of me to protect potential staff from *having* you hired as their manager by being honest. I personally would not want to work *directly* with you. Did you know that?”

  25. mahhtha*

    This happened to me. Someone who I mentored resigned unexpectedly and attempted to burn me (for unknown reasons) in an exit interview with our CEO. They left for what they considered a better position but it ultimately didn’t work out for them so they applied elsewhere and used me as a reference without my knowledge.
    When contacted for reference information I told them that the person who used me as a reference always reported to work on time. I used that statement as an answer to every question. That was the most positive statement I could make. The person was not hired there.

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