Labor Day open thread

by Alison Green on September 2, 2024

It’s Labor Day! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything (work-related or not) that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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    1. GythaOgden*

      Particularly with their hard hats! Good kitties, health and safety always comes first and is rewarded with cuddles and lots of catnip. Although maybe when health and safety is concerned, being on the ‘nip might be classed as impairment…

      (Doing the research myself for a furry feline friend. It’s still a couple of payrises away, maybe even a full promotion, plus I’m not sure my untidy house would pass an inspection from a shelter yet. But I’m just a bit lonely while WFH and need my own Pangur Ban: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangur_B%C3%A1n to keep me sane.)

      1. Jackalope*

        In general my experience has been that if you go through the Humane Society they don’t do house inspections. Not sure if you’re in the US, but if not I’d look into a shelter that doesn’t do them if it’s an option where you live.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Nah, I’m in the UK, but thanks!

          I’m not a hoarder and nowhere’s actually dirty beyond what a good scrub could accomplish, I can just cope with a bit more mess than other people. It’s good to keep in mind — but, again, thanks :).

          1. Lenora Rose*

            I adopted during Covid, so the home inspection was really mainly a series of photos, but I didn’t hide the mess. I scrubbed up, of course (floors swept and mopped, vacuum run, which in themselves get some things put away) but took my pictures with no effort to crop out the piles of papers/stuff on top of almost all level surfaces, or kids’ toys.

            Their only concern was a toxic plant our previous cats had wholly ignored. (we put it in an unreachable hanging basket, but our cats ignored its shed leaves, too.)

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          We went through PAWS; had to fill out some paperwork and get the boys neutered and such, but no home inspection.

      2. bamcheeks*

        Had an RSPCA inspection 10 years ago when we got out catso and they were more interested in things like how near the nearest big road was than tidiness. We moved house and had a baby within 12 months of getting the cat, so it always seemed a bit pointless anyway!

      3. 1 Non Blonde*

        I had a virtual inspection during the height of the pandemic and, dealing with PTSD, depression, and anxiety, my house was abhorrent (I’ve since gotten assistance from an organizer who specializes in mental health related messes). I apologized for it but if they were concerned, they didn’t mention it. And I got the kitty in the end. :)

  3. Six Feldspar*

    Happy Labour Day up there!

    I have to wonder if labour day celebrations were set up at the start of autumn on both hemispheres on purpose, or if that just happened by chance?

    1. Despachito*

      But are they really?

      I am in Europe and for us it has always been May 1. I was surprised to find for you it is today so googled it and it seems that today is Labor Day just for the U.S, U.K, Canada and Australia.

      1. Six Feldspar*

        Labour day falls on the first Monday of March for Australians, so that’s the start of autumn for us!

        1. kalli*

          *some Australians.

          For me it’s actually mid-spring, although if we consider the seasons as observed by the Indigenous people whose land we’re on, it’s a bit more accurately early Spring here.

      2. kalli*

        for me in South Australia it’s the first Monday in October.

        Three states, however, have it in March – either the first or second Monday.

          1. fallingleavesofnovember*

            In Canada we have a statutory holiday (i.e. bank holiday) almost every month from Easter to Christmas, but the long stretch with nothing is January – Easter and it’s LONG (especially because it’s also winter!) So I understand the feeling but associate it with a different time!

            1. Fieldpoppy*

              What province are you in? There is that mid Feb random holiday that is family day in Ontario, nb, Alberta, bc and Manitoba.

              1. Monday*

                In Ontario Family Day is considered an ‘optional’ stat, employers only have to give 11 total, so it’s a toss up as to whether you get the August day or the Feb day. Also it’s not a federal stat, so federal employees don’t get it off. (I’m not complaining, since we have other days non-feds don’t)

                1. fallingleavesofnovember*

                  Yeah, I’m a federal worker so I don’t get the Feb stat, but I do get Remembrance Day and Truth and Reconciliation Day, so can’t complain. I do wish we had something in that long winter stretch though!

                2. Lenora Rose*

                  I have to admit I strongly prefer the break in February (Louis Riel Day here, not family day; I don’t know that most people celebrate it much differently, though there are a few events or activities for those who wish to commemorate. And extra confusing when Ontario has a Louis Riel Day — that isn’t a provincial holiday — in November.)

        2. londonedit*

          No one really calls it Labour Day in the UK, though, it’s just the early May bank holiday.

          And yes, our summer bank holiday was last Monday (it’s always the last Monday of August) so that’s it until Christmas! I always feel like we should have a holiday sometime in October to break things up a bit.

      4. GrumpyPenguin*

        South America and several Asian and African countries have May 1. too. The really funny thing is that the tradition of celebrating May 1. originated in the US, but they have their Labor Day in September.

        1. allathian*

          The Soviet Union used to celebrate it in a big way, with military parades in Red Square. Russia still does it, although I must admit that without the red flags it doesn’t look as impressive. From that perspective it does seem weird that it originated in the US.

          1. GrumpyPenguin*

            And Berlin celebrates in its own special way with demonstrations and festive riots, although the events have gotten less violent in the last years. I wouldn’t advice anyone to park their car in the streets there on May 1. though.

            1. bamcheeks*

              I remember sitting in a cafe in Friedrichshain in 2005 and watching the 1st May riots, which were so practised they were practically choreographed. Then we did it all again following week it was the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Germany. As far as I remember, the far right came out much more for that one and it was genuinely tense, but (thank goodness) the neo-Nazis were massively outnumbered by literally everyone else.

            2. londonedit*

              In the early 2000s there were a few years of May Day anti-capitalist protests/smashing up of banks etc here in London. I was doing my degree at the time and had to hand in my final essays on the first Wednesday in May – one year that happened to be May 1st and we ended up being locked in the university building because there was a big protest/smashing-up session going past.

          2. Sharp-dressed Boston Terrier*

            It came about as part of the fight for an eight-hour day in the 1880s, and was intimately connected with the Haymarket incident of May 4, 1886. Radical and revolutionary socialists around the world started organizing May Day events in solidarity by 1890 and it took off from there. The Bolsheviks naturally continued the tradition once they came to power in Russia.

            Labor Day in September appears to be just a few years older, but it’s easy to see why the powers that be in the US found that alternative highly preferable.

            1. allathian*

              Thanks for the informative and concisely written history lesson. I had no idea, although I suspect it would’ve been easy to look it up.

      5. goddessoftransitory*

        I think maybe it was moved to avoid comparison with May 1? That was/is often associated with “communism” and I think many labor groups strove to separate themselves from those associations in order to actually get labor rights passed/not get arrested.

    2. coffee*

      I can only speak for Australia here, Labour Days aren’t even always in autumn in Australia, let alone the whole southern hemisphere. But they are chosen for significant dates.

      International Workers’ Day is on the 1st of May. It comes out of the international Labour Movement from the late 1800s, and specifically a big strike in America with a rally for the 8-hour working day. The Americans at this point were inspired by Australian stonemasons in Melbourne who went on strike/organised a protest march just before in April, and successfully won an eight-hour working day. It was a huge, international movement.

      America celebrates Labor Day in September because the weather is nicer at that time of year, and also so the event is less associated with its socialist roots.

      Australia celebrates Labor Day in different days for different states. Victoria’s is in March, celebrating the stonemasons. New South Wales is in October, celebrating their stonemasons. Etc.

      Hope you enjoyed learning a bit more about this! The history is really interesting, I think – big international movement, big historical changes.

    3. Jill Swinburne*

      In New Zealand it’s the last weekend in October, so really marks the start of the warmer weather. It’s also the end of the long winter dearth of public holidays (though they’ve tried to remedy this with Matariki in June/July). It’s grim going from Easter till October with nothing to cut through – I miss northern hemisphere winters where you’ve at least got Christmas to break things up!

      1. londonedit*

        Wow that is a long time! Here in England we have the stretch from Christmas to Easter, which can be long if Easter is well into April. And then from the last Monday in May to the last Monday in August, and from there to Christmas again.

        1. Been There*

          In Belgium it’s the start of the year as well (New Year’s through Easter) and then September – October. But we have holidays those other months to keep us entertained.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          In Ireland, we actually have a load of days off in that part of the year. We have Christmas on the 25th of December, then St. Stephen’s day on the 26th, then New Year’s day on the 1st of January, then we’ve had the first Monday in February added, then St. Patrick’s day on the 17th of March and then Easter Monday.

          So if Easter is early, we can have five days in just over three months.

          1. RussianInTexas*

            Back in Russia there is May Day, but then there is the V Day on May 9, and now it’s just all off in-between.

            1. Irish Teacher.*

              That is basically what happens from Christmas to the New Year in Ireland. A lot of places, including shops, just close for the week.

          2. GythaOgden*

            Do you still get Halloween? I remember it when I worked in Dublin. Party on a ‘school night’ was a bit awkward, but nevertheless it was definitely a bonus.

    4. RussianInTexas*

      It is my understanding that the US celebrates the Labor Day specially NOT on May 1st as not be allied with the “communism” and the “international workers”, even though the International Workers Day which most of the world celebrate on May 1st originated based on the strike and riots in Chicago in the late 1800s. IWD was established by the Marxist International Socialist Congress, and that would be a big no-no here.

    5. Hazel*

      It appears Canada’s Labour Day was declared in 1894, years after a printers’ strike led to the legalization of unions and politicians’ recognition that acknowledging labour wasn’t a bad thing (I got this from the ‘Canada’s history’ website). I think it was the first Canadian a permanent public holiday, creating a two-day weekend (not three!) for many people. It doesn’t say why the fall date, though it now marks return to school for most, so last hurrah of summer.

    2. dapfloodle*

      Hahaha I thought this question was about how we’re celebrating Labor Day, or what we’re doing on Labor Day if not celebrating, so I guess I’m going to pretend it is since I went to the trouble of scrolling back up to respond. The main festive plans are that my husband and I are going to put up the Halloween lights (like Christmas lights but they are green, orange, and purple) outside. In reality though this is because our entryway light is too high up for even my husband to reach on a tall ladder and the bulb is burning out, and we want to be able to see at least a little if coming home at night (even from a neighborhood walk, we’re doing those after dark right now due to the heat of the day). We have a friend who is a few inches taller than my husband, who changed the lightbulb last time, we were actually supposed to hang out last week but my friend and his fiancee lost their cat so had to cancel. So, Halloween lights it is! And, going to reward ourselves with Homesick Texan’s recipe for “Mexican hot dogs with pineapple salsa and chipotle mayonnaise” for dinner.

  5. BellaStella*

    Good morning all. A few months ago I asked for your guidance in a Friday open thread on how to word a request related to the use of apps like whatsapp on personal non work paid phones and got some good advice for asking about updating or reviewing company policies. Recently I submitted said request for a review of a few policies like data protection etc and it turns out our firm also has a mobile phone policy of which I was unaware. So IT and HR and a few other folks are going to review these things and reiterate the need for all work communications especially document sharing to go thru tools like email and teams chat etc. for paper trails and legal protection as well as not bothering employees after hours or on personal phones. Some day soon I have hope to be able to have a policy refresher company wide to back up my choice to leave the stupid team chat and that day I will write it and we can all celebrate.

    2. Odd one out*

      Well done! I don’t have the capital to do this. Hopefully others in my company do. I did not join my team’s chat because I do not want to use whatsapp. I would begrudgingly install some other specific app that does not import all your contacts so everyone contacts you on whatsapp and adds you to other group chats but whatsapp is way too invasive. So now my boss and teammates have a group chat without me. I’m disappointed that my boss doesn’t see the issue with this. We have Teams and people are allowed to install that on their personal phones too if they want, so there is really no reason for this separate chat.

        1. BellaStella*

          And to be fair, too, as you said, the boss should not be using this app or others that exclude people, when you have Teams.

      2. allathian*

        Yeah, that sucks, I’m sorry. We used to have Whatsapp as a backup for when Teams or the Office 356 environment is down, but my employer banned it because it was considered too insecure. Now we have Signal as backup instead, but I haven’t used it other than to test it since it was installed two years ago.

        I have my close coworker’s personal phone number + Whatsapp, but I haven’t used it for years. Last time I did was before the pandemic when we visited his childhood hometown and I sent a couple photos.

  6. BellaStella*

    Have you all hears the latest news in the “right to disconnect” realm? Per a recent BBC article, “A “right to disconnect” rule has come into effect in Australia, offering relief to people who feel forced to take calls or read messages from employers after they finish their day’s work.
    The new law allows employees to ignore communications after hours if they choose to, without fear of being punished by their bosses.”

    This follows a trend where this kind of law is in place in France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Slovakia, Canada and Philippines. It also links to the existing human rights laws and the universal declaration of human rights. Wikipedia has an article with details.

    This was one reason for my request to ask about the whatsapp chats at my firm.

    I am all for this kind of legislation to be honest esp for those of us whose jobs do not entail life saving etc.

    1. kalli*

      Yes, it’s just come in here alongside a raft of other changes going live this year and over the next couple of years (with some staggering to give small businesses time to adapt etc.) It’s causing quite a bit of confusion as it’s not a blanket rule and in fact, it only comes into effect for businesses <15 employees next year. I'll put a link in a further comment in case anyone's interested.

    2. kalli*

      https://www.fairwork.gov.au/about-us/workplace-laws/legislation-changes/closing-loopholes/right-to-disconnect

      This is from the Fair Work Ombudsman, who are our advice and enforcement body (though to be fair, they’re underresourced so things do slip through). Basically, an employee can refuse to monitor or answer business communications outside of their working hours, but whether that refusal is unreasonable depends on the individual circumstances. Something like a small business owner sending out a text once a week with someone’s roster isn’t likely to trigger the full weight of the system, but they would be encouraged to post the roster in advance at work; someone who was not approved for overtime having to get back on their device after they’d gotten home and having to actually work for another three hours would be able to go ‘yeah, no, it can wait until 9am’ unless it’s actually part of their job to be on call, they’re paid appropriately, and it genuinely couldn’t wait (e.g. a retail manager responding to an alarm or power outage, then being paid the minimum shift and double time until they’d had a 12hr break or similar penalty rate under an EBA).

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      Ireland has such legislation too. Our government enacted it after covid, due to concerns that employers would take advantage of the need for remote working and expect people to be constantly available as “you’re working from home anyway.”

      https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/6b64a-tanaiste-signs-code-of-practice-on-right-to-disconnect/

      I think it’s a good thing, especially with the increase in remote working, so people aren’t necessarily leaving the office at 5 or 6pm anymore.

    4. Six Feldspar*

      It’s come into affect for businesses with more than 15 employees just now, but smaller businesses will come under in mid 2025 iirc. In the news there’s been the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth about how it’s not faaaaaaaaaaaaair and it’s more red taaaaaaaape and it’s so haaaaaaaard to be a business owner! However the laws now protect employees who refuse to answer calls or emails outside of work hours, instead of prohibiting bosses from trying to contact them.

      The fair work commission is waiting on releasing guidelines until there’s a few test cases so set precedent, so it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

    6. bamcheeks*

      I saw a couple of people I respect talking about this on LinkedIn and saying it was a terrible idea because it didn’t support flexible working. Which really seems a bad way to think about it, to me– it’s about people having the *right* to disconnect, not the duty. One person’s need/wish to flex their hours shouldn’t be creating the need for someone else work outside their working hours!

      2. Observer*

        Which really seems a bad way to think about it, to me– it’s about people having the *right* to disconnect, not the duty.

        It depends on the law. I could be wrong but my understanding is the the Australian law is much more flexible that way than the French law, which would make it harder to support flexible hours.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I had a conversation about this quite recently (this is also being proposed here in the UK). My conclusion was that if implemented it will lead to people splitting into 2 groups: those who don’t respond out of hours and justify it with the legislation, and those who continue as they’ve always been and disregard the legislation. Guess who will end up picking up the slack? I think the legislation is a bad idea, as it mandates and encodes in law something that is better handled within companies.

      1. Not That Kind of Doctor*

        Assuming the business in question has a legitimate need for after-hours communication, it could instead result in some clarification of which after-hours requests need a response and from whom, and some kind of system to identify those and route them to the appropriate people.

        My employer holds the line that with rare exceptions related to third-party deadlines that fall outside of business hours, nobody on a team responds to after-hours client emails without prior authorization, so clients don’t start getting the idea that, oh, so-and-so is usually still online at 6:30, I bet I can get an answer now. The clients know they can call or text a director if an unforeseen time-sensitive problem comes up, at which point the director can contact anyone else who’s needed to deal with it. It’s a lot less soul-sucking than spending evenings or weekends checking email every hour for direction that never comes, which did happen on one recent project.

      2. Observer*

        as it mandates and encodes in law something that is better handled within companies.

        That assumes that the companies are actually trying to do that. And the reality is that many, many companies don’t even *try*.

        And to be honest, there is no reason for people who answer after hours to pick up the slack if, for whatever reason they *choose* to ignore the law. After all, a company that actually cares about this stuff enough that they would have tried to deal with it without the law could surely find a way to make sure that the people who answer after hours don’t get the short end of the stick. And I’d say that a law like this would actually incentivize a company to try to figure it out even if they weren’t trying to deal with the issue prior.

      4. Irish Teacher.*

        I don’t think that’s a problem. Yeah, there WILL be some people who will choose to work outside hours despite the legislation, but…that’s their choice. They won’t be picking up slack. They’ll be choosing to do additional work for whatever reason. If they choose to disregard the legislation, that’s their choice, but they can’t really complain, “I ignored the working norms and it made more work for me.”

        And the others aren’t “justifying.” They are doing what they are supposed to. If work can’t be done within working hours, them the company needs to hire more staff.

    8. goddessoftransitory*

      Here in Seattle the hot topic is No Cell Phones in school–the idea is that students’ phones are to be put into storage during school hours, not just “down” or stowed in a backpack (where they rarely stay for long, naturally.)

      Teachers are all for this as trying to conduct a class when the entire room is pretending not to scroll is an exercise in both futility and frustration. The big sticking points is A) parents who worry about not being able to contact their kids during school hours in case of emergency and B) teachers’ phones–they obviously will need them but it’s hard to convince a bunch of tweens “do as I say, not as I do.”

      1. amoeba*

        Huh, I mean, for the former you could presumably call the school and they’d notify your child – like, you know, in all the last pre-mobile decades? (Also, for the teachers – I mean, they don’t generally need to take out their phones during class, do they? Like, sure, probably not feasible to have it locked away all day, but it should be possible to arrange that the students don’t actually see you using it?)

        1. Observer*

          Huh, I mean, for the former you could presumably call the school and they’d notify your child – like, you know, in all the last pre-mobile decades?

          Well, actually, no. One of the reasons that so many parents went to cell phones so quickly was because schools often would NOT get a child to the phone no matter what the reason was for the call. Secondarily, for situations where there is a mass emergency, either at the school or else where, where the school might actually *legitimately* not be able to handle incoming parent calls.

          The fact that schools have also gotten rid of the payphones that used to exits in a lot of schools has just exacerbated the issue.

          Also, for the teachers – I mean, they don’t generally need to take out their phones during class, do they?

          This is true. I really don’t see why most teachers would be using their phones during class.

      2. Lenora Rose*

        The guidelines we just sent out for the same idea are:
        – no cell phones at all for grade 8 under, barring special circumstances. This means if they need to be brought, they need to stay in lockers, or be held in a designated area in the office if the school (like many elementaries) has no lockers.
        – cell phones allowed but only during breaks for older grades, no use at all in classes.
        – adults in schools Strongly encouraged to model good “cell hygiene”, and not to use in the presence of children.

        I work in a different office, so the fact that I need it available in case the school needs to contact me (children with special needs) doesn’t disrupt this plan, but I do need to work on my own bad habits…

        And yes, I have never had an issue with calling the school and the school reaching out to the children, if I needed to reach my kids.

        1. Lenora Rose*

          For any school projects that require devices, the school division has its own tablets they can connect to, under supervision and with the schools in control of what’s loaded on there.

  7. RedinSC*

    I am part of a team of people reviewing grants for a city grant program. there’s all kinds of metrics to look at, but none of the metrics are number of people served. everything is about people being served and improving lives, but nothing is about the actual number.

    so my question is to you in reviewing these things, is there a difference between serving eight people and serving, say 800 people?

    The grant serving eight people is really well written. it meets all the criteria, those eight people will come out better. it doesn’t talk about return on investment though, so I don’t know if there’s a trickle-down effect from those eight people benefiting to the community.

    how would you approach this?

    1. BellaStella*

      In the grant is there a results framework with baseline and indicator numbers and goals to be achieved? General outcomes that will be better with 800? What about boundary partner influence and also if they need to do outcome harvesting to measure outcomes will having 800 served be better for the community at large for longer term effect and sustainability? How does each grant measure up to the desired monitoring, evaluation and learning MEL goals? If other partner orgs are involved do they look for bigger numbers for extended impact? What does your firm’s impact measurements guidance for projects say?

      1. BellaStella*

        Also are the eight all men? All women? What disaggregators can help you? All in one area? All parents? Will the 800 be more diverse beneficiaries?

    2. WoodswomanWrites*

      I write grant proposals professionally and I have also been a reviewer as you are. Metrics around the number of people served can be complicated.

      As an example, you may have a program serving 10 people in-depth over time and another for 100 people who have a one-time experience. Comparing them with numbers can be apples to oranges if their experiences are wildly different. Context is everything, and it sounds like that’s what you’re asking because you don’t have much information based on your guidelines.

      Let’s say you have 10 people who receive program hours over a six-month period in a cohort model. If after the program is over, they each will out to their communities and train 10 people a year, that’s a huge impact. Even more so if they are going to stay in touch with their cohort over time to share successes and problem-solving. Of course that’s different than something like where the program is providing meals to people with food insecurity where serving 100 has a lot more impact than 10.

      There are many ways to look at the “return on investment,” and it sounds like it would be helpful to be able to ask the applicants follow-up questions. Does the grant program you’re working with allow you to contact applicants directly, or can you only work with their written applications?

      My experience when I was a reviewer for government grant applications was that we could only look at the applications (and a website if they had one) but couldn’t contact them with questions. That makes it tricky. As a reviewer for foundations, we had a lot more flexibility for follow-up and evaluating the strengths of the project.

      This may not be relevant to your situation, but one other thing I came to learn is that the quality of the writing can vary widely. Some proposals are created by volunteers and/or people for whom English is a second language rather than professional grant writers. At first I didn’t realize my bias toward well-written applications, but came to realize it in discussions with my fellow reviewers. Also, in the government reviews I participated in, we were able to give written feedback and if a proposal didn’t score well, sometimes applicants came back the following year with a better plan and got a grant.

      That’s more than you were asking, but I hope at least some of this info is useful.

      1. But maybe not*

        I write grants as part of my job, and as a volunteer, I sit on a regional board that allocates state dollars as grants to early childhood programs. We use # served as well as cost per person as a metric, and like Woodswoman says, it really depends on the type of support they are providing. Additionally, we are in a rural area, so there may be a service that is vital to the 10 people it serves but there simply aren’t more people eligible/in need of that service.

        I also agree with biasing toward well written applications. When I first started on this board, I was overly critical of applications that didn’t provide us with the information we wanted in order to make what we thought was the best decision. That was a professional bias showing through (because giving the people [reviewers] what they want is what makes me a good grant writer). It turns out the answer to that is to make a better application that explicitly asks for what you want.

        1. Observer*

          It turns out the answer to that is to make a better application that explicitly asks for what you want.

          Very much this. If an organization doesn’t answer an explicit question, that’s one thing. But expecting organizations to always know what the reviewers need to make good decision is just not smart. Especially with newer organizations who haven’t been in the field that long, and haven’t gotten good feedback yet.

    3. bamcheeks*

      I’m on the other end of this– currently running a project where we claim funding per participant, and every participant we claim has to have completed a looooong form including lots of demographic data and shown us ID etc. We are also supposed to provide hard evidence of impact on this individual (eg. that they have moved into a new job, with a copy of their contract.)

      This has been a huge barrier, because there isn’t really a market for the kind of long and intense intervention the programme envisions. There IS a market for a short intervention (eg. a 10 hours online asynchronous course, a day’s training, or 6 x 2 hours over 6 weeks), but it’s incredibly hard to get people signing up for that to fill in a six-page form and bring their passports, and the chances they’ll stay in touch and tell you if they’ve got a new job are very slim. You might do that for a full-time six week programme, but barely anyone can afford to do a six-week programme even if it’s free.

      So the original proposal was to help 1000 people, the realistic numbers are more like 150. We’ve probably engaged with 200-300 along the way, but if we can provide evidence for 150, we’re doing very, very well. It’s wildly frustrating, to be honest– it’s public money, and the funders talk a lot about getting value for money and everything being evidenced, blah blah blah Tory rubbish, but it’s really obvious from my position as project lead that nobody talks about how ridiculously expensive it is to NOT WASTE public money. Half the providers have gone bust trying to make the funding work, and in the mean time there are a cozen people in very nice £40k jobs making sure that only 150 evidenced people get help instead of 1000 people with looser criteria.

      This probably isn’t helpful to you! But if you have any rigorous requirements of participation of impact, I would scrutinise the 800 ones very, very hard. It is a LOT harder to get evidence of 800 people supported than it is to get evidence of 8.

      1. Observer*

        But if you have any rigorous requirements of participation of impact, I would scrutinise the 800 ones very, very hard. It is a LOT harder to get evidence of 800 people supported than it is to get evidence of 8.

        Eh, it depends. We also have to do a lot of proving that our clients exist and are eligible. With the exception of one funder, though, no one needs to fill out six pages of applications. The one source that does require it also provides some fairly extensive services and we were able to build in to our budget the cost of getting people signed up.

        Having said that, I know from experience that sometimes the kind of thing you describe happens. And also that sometimes even when it’s not this over the top, the requirements to “not waste money” actually cause far greater expenses than if organizations were allowed to operate with less micromanaging and the reduction of certain regulations.

      2. WoodswomanWrites*

        Yes, these kinds of demanding metrics take so much time away from running the programs the funder is supporting. It’s unreasonable to ask for such complicated data. See my other post about Crappy Fundraising Practices.

    4. Observer*

      so my question is to you in reviewing these things, is there a difference between serving eight people and serving, say 800 people?

      It depends on the service. And the cost per service unit / per person served. Also, are you talking about individuals that may have been served many times, or “turnstile count”, where each time someone comes in that gets counted as a “person”. And there can be wild variation even within a category.

      To make up an example, based on real world experience:

      The general category is Medical Advocacy.

      Organization 1 acts as a clearing house for information. People come in and ask questions like “Who in this area provides help with ~~Condition X~~”. The organization tells them where to go, what paperwork to bring, and if possibly gives them some additional resources as well as information that could help them in dealing with the place they are sending the client to. They don’t keep track of individuals who come back for follow up or who have multiple needs.

      For the purposes of your grant, they are paying one person part time (60%) of the time. That gets them to 800 people per year.

      Organization 2 provides a “wrap around” service. Someone comes in and says that they think they have condition X, which is either rare or can have other complications in terms of accessing accurate diagnosis and treatment. And this issue is already affecting their broader ability to function and may get worse. The organization helps the person from the time they walk in the door with a concern through getting the tests they need through to the full course of treatment. That includes everything from standard bureaucratic hurdles, getting access to the correct specialists and treatments, advocacy in getting the correct testing / taking the patient seriously (an especially big problem for women the world over, and people who have “atypical” symptoms).

      If the organization has the same part timer (60%) of the time, then they may be able to help more than 8 people, but it’s not going to be a lot more than that. Because that kind of thing takes a LOT of time. But also, in many such cases, you’re also looking at moving someone from a situation where their ability to hold down a job, be a parent / partner in a relationship, etc. to reasonable health and ability to function. So you’re talking about a much higher investment per person, but also potentially a much higher return.

      PS If your grant request requirements don’t include these kinds of metrics and explanation then someone needs to re-think the requirements.

    5. WoodswomanWrites*

      This thread is making me think of two favorite projects that I follow to make applying for grants easier. If you work in the grants world, they’re great and both are starting to get the attention of grantmakers and improving how they operate.

      First, if you use LinkedIn, I recommend following Crappy Funding Practices, which shares real examples of obstacles applicants face. It’s both useful and hilarious, and even got written up in Inside Philanthropy.

      The other is FixTheForm which has been created by Grant Advisor. For the many us who have run into online application forms that are a mess to navigate, this is an initiative to publicize how to streamline the process. It’s validating if you’ve ever wanted to throw something at your screen because a submission form makes no sense.

      1. RedinSC*

        Thanks! These are great.

        I was on the responding end of the grants I’m now reviewing and each time I participated in the “how’d this go what can we do to make this process better” conversation and every time things that are highlighted get made worse!

        This time, actually, things are a little better, so maybe they’ve listened. I am no longer in a fundraising position, so it’s really nice to NOT be the one filling out these applications.

    6. RedinSC*

      Thank you all so much for chiming in. These are government (local) grants and I don’t want to be too specific.

      I really appreciate everyone’s thoughts and insights here, though. Our instructions were to look at each grant, how it presents the information and how it was going to address the cultural inequities.

      I’m hoping that in the next stage of this process we’ll be able to talk things out with the larger group. We have funding for about 1/5 of the requests, so some people are not going to get their grants filled.

      Our instructions had nothing about ROI or cost/participant and outcomes. So I’ve flagged my thoughts in the comments section and we’ll see where the process goes from there.

      Again, I really thank you all for this conversation.

  8. Myrin*

    This is a bit of a long shot since I’m in Germany and our norms around job applications are quite different from those in the US so it might be hard for American readers to gauge this, but here goes anyway:

    I’m in the process of reviewing applications and one candidate has had relevant and impressive experiences since 2010. However, he doesn’t list any work experience at all between 1998 and 2009 (he DOES list the work he did before that, so it’s not like 2009 is just the first year he’s mentioning; and before anyone asks: yes, we generally list every job we’ve had on every résumé, although you generally and naturally put more emphasis on those which are actually relevant to your current application; we don’t have the cutoff I often see mentioned here where you only start listing the last 15 years or however long).

    And I’m thinking that on the one hand, it’s been 15 years, on the other, 11 years is a long time, especially when you’re already in your thirties; he was a university/PhD student during that time but doesn’t mention any jobs he did concurrently.

    Should I ask about it or leave it be, seeing how it’s been many years since then?

    1. call me wheels*

      Do you actually have reason to be concerned this is something that would affect his application or is more just you would like to know? If you can see that it he did recieve degrees in that time period I guess you can tell it wasn’t due to being in prison? I couldn’t work alongside most of my degree due to disability, so it could be to do with that maybe. Maybe he had care duties. I don’t know if asking is the right move or not but maybe try and think if there are any answers that would actually change how you feel about the strength of his application and then evaluate if that would be good to know or not?

    2. Anima*

      I might get be not awake enough yet, but to me this reads like he was in uni until he got his PhD between 1998 and 2009? That is totally fine, some people don’t need to work to finance uni?
      Also, he can’t be in his thirties when he started working before 1998; I am in my late thirties and I was definitely in school in 1998. (But I might just read that wrong because just got up.)

      2. Wolf*

        > some people don’t need to work to finance uni?

        Being a PhD student is a paid position in Germany. Not well-paid, but enough to support one person.

        11 years is long, but not impossible.

        1. Been There*

          Same in Belgium, but only about 4-5 years. If you add bachelor and master, it can take around 8-10 years.

    3. WoodswomanWrites*

      If it were me, I would focus the interview on the last 15 years of his work history since the gap was so long ago. If the norm in Germany is to list every position, perhaps the candidate will bring it up himself in your interview. Maybe on top of getting his PhD during that period he was at home raising kids, caring for aging parents, out of the country, etc. Unless there’s something in the interview that raises a red flag, I wouldn’t ask about it.

    4. Helvetica*

      I would ask. In my European country, the expectation can be that many people don’t work if they’re in uni but then I’d still expect to see some summer jobs. For example, I did not have a full-time job until I finished my Master’s but I worked every summer inbetween.

      1. GythaOgden*

        I have a rocky start to my career history — one year on (managed out when it was clear I struggled), ~20 months off which included 15 studying in another country, eight months on (sacked due to not being able to be mentally, and sometimes physically present), 9 years off with a Masters towards the end of it and an abortive attempt at securing a PhD place before realising that I enjoyed temping more than I did studying and then found a permanent position — but I made up for it on my CV and applications (in the public sector, you do write more in-depth essays/answers to questions than in the private sector) by detailing what I was doing during those times. I did a number of volunteer placements, pursued an academic degree, did volunteer retail in charity shops etc. This the first job I interviewed for while actively employed.

        I think in our context you’d need to specify. It’s totally ok to put down things like caregiving, study and illness (my issue was that my mental health prevented me from holding down a job until I really got back into a normal routine with the Masters) but it is going to hold you back if you can’t at least show your hand. (My BIL was his mum’s carer after being laid off during the pandemic and he’s getting perilously close to being unemployable by doing very little to develop himself professionally and probably just living off his parents’ dwindling estate. Which is his choice, but he’s not exactly being honest with himself about it.)

        There are also going to be questions like the one my current boss asked me when I was looking for a route off reception: ‘What’s an LSE graduate doing on the front desk?’ — that is, if you’re /under/-employed but seeking advancement, it’s good to have something to say to those kinds of questions. Mine was basically my employment gap was compounded by staying in my reception role while my husband died and then the pandemic hit, and by the time I was personally stronger, all my experience was not just stale but mouldy and I was reliant on a dynamic boss to get me into my current admin position.

        I would remember that an interview is not just a formality for either party. How you prepare your answers to any issues that might come up, how you project yourself in the interview (I brought together a lot of my voluntary and academic experience to demonstrate that I could do stuff I hadn’t been doing for ten years on reception) and how you account for things like health issues (are they resolved? ongoing?) or caregiving. In the UK, employment law under the 2010 Equality Act, there’s a carve-out for positive discrimination on a highly limited and exceedingly well-documented basis, meaning that actually it’s in your favour to declare a disability in particular like autism for employers to allow you a bit of grace for a choppy career as long as you are qualified. I’d therefore advise people to gently play up any disability and explain gaps in order to ensure they get taken more seriously.

        So it depends. I think US employment norms militate against personal circumstances to a degree that UK law (at the very least) and public sector (in my experience) don’t. (For instance there’s a requirement to self-report illness to your employer in order for them to track occupational health data, so people are fairly used to it, just like open/shared offices are pretty much ubiquitous so we just make do). That can work to the employee’s benefit but it can also be a culture shock if you’re used to not talking about it.

        We try to make it better to disclose issues that might affect employment stability and therefore it might be less usual for someone to hide it. So yeah, as a consequence, because it’s generally understood that you need to explain gaps, a lengthy gap like that without any clear understanding of where they were would be surprising.

        1. RevealingDisability*

          correction, the self reporting is to the government not the company. We are encouraged not to discuss anything medical or disability related unless or until we need to ask for an accommodation, at which time we’re expected to reveal more than most would prefer.

          1. GythaOgden*

            Fair enough! Thanks, good to know. I just report through our online portal or let my boss know — it’s generally either been mental health or respiratory illnesses, but there was that one time I broke my ankle and had to call them from A&E. I’ve never been especially cagey about my situation because it helps everyone to be on the same page if there’s a problem, but that’s very true and thanks for the clarification!

      2. Wolf*

        The PhD position itself is a paid thing in Germany.

        And I wouldn’t list my summer jobs from 15 years ago, unless they’re super relevant to the field I want to enter.

    5. MKL*

      It may well have been that he did a four year degree and a five year PhD with some traveling in there – some scholarships / bursaries are enough to live frugally on and still travel and have fun with (I know I did!)

      I’m in the UK and have several friends who worked and saved hard in their 20s and then took a few years out in their early 30s to study and travel.

      The other option which could coexist is that he may have had young children during those years and could have been a stay at home parent while studying. That is a pretty logical explanation for a long gap in your early 30s as well, and you wouldn’t want to penalize someone for that.

      1. Myrin*

        Your first paragraph is something I don’t have to guess at because he lists it – he did his “regular degree” (I really don’t know how else to express this because our university systems are so different and were even more different back then; there wasn’t any distinction between “undergrad” or “grad” or other stuff, you just studied your subjects and graduated after 9 or 10 semesters, i. e. about five years) from 1988 to 1998 and then his doctorate/PhD-equivalent from 1998 to 2008.

        That’s what first stood out to me, actually, because that’s a really long time to complete either of those, even by German standards. But that’s also what made me think of caregiving duties of whatever kind or illness, which would naturally make him take longer.
        But I think in general, I come down on the side of it having been long enough ago that I will only mention it if it turns out to be relevant during the interview process, like if he talks about it himself.

        1. allathian*

          I took me 8 years to complete a 4-year degree because I had depression and only managed to take a few language courses, enough to qualify for the student subsidy, rather than courses in my major that required actual study (I learn, or at least used to learn, languages so easily that studying them didn’t feel like work). For US readers it may be helpful to know that tuition here in Finland is free until you complete your Master’s. I covered COL with part-time work and student subsidy and a tiny student loan (about 5K euros).

          1. allathian*

            I also managed to finally graduate with enough credits to cover a Licentiate (intermediary degree between a Master’s and a Ph.D.) degree, if I’d taken all the extra courses in my major. I’m glad that I was allowed all that academic freedom, students today are expected to be far more goal-oriented from the start than I was.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          I think there’s a big difference between “last year I had a bunch of stuff going on” (where the AAM advice is to proactively mention this stuff is now resolved), and “fifteen-twenty years ago I had a bunch of stuff going on.” The last fifteen years is a much more accurate picture of how they are likely to be now.

          1. Wolf*

            I fully agree – the candidate has 15 years of solid work history, that must be worth more than the gap that’s long ago.

        3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          If he has fifteen years of relevant work experience, are the experiences 26+ years ago also relevant? With that long a work history I’m sure he is editing down his CV down to what’s pertinent only.

        4. amoeba*

          Huh, Standard (in my field, at least) is 5 years for a Bachelor’s and Master’s (minimum time! A lot of people take longer) plus then at the very least 3 for a PhD. So the absolute minimum possible would be 8 years – but then at least in my group, 4-5 years for the PhD were actually a lot more common, and it was pretty normal to take a semester or three longer to finish the undergrad.

          If he’s older, he’d still have done a “Diplom” or a “Magister”, right? In my experience, it was even more common for people to take a bit longer to finish these.

          And if you had any other source of funding, it was pretty normal not to have additional jobs during that time – PhD is paid, anyway, and I probably wouldn’t even think of listing stuff like tutoring or whatever on my CV!

          So yeah, all in all, that seems really pretty normal and not sure what the red flag is here.

          1. GradSchool*

            that is lightening fast for a PhD – most people are just finishing up coursework at 3 years and have only just started or are about to start their research.

        5. amoeba*

          Ah, OK, yeah, sorry, didn’t see this before my other comments – that’s definitely quite long. But then, eeh, a lot of people didn’t really have their… stuff together during their studies and still work out really well once they graduate! I might ask but if it seems like since then, he’s worked consistently and well, wouldn’t hold it against him.

    6. PhDIsTheJob*

      In the fields I’m familiar with, unless they’re in a special program explicitly designed for people concurrently working as X type of worker, most PhD students do not work outside of their PhD program. The PhD is a full time job, and it often comes with an academic unpaid job (teaching assistant, research assistant, etc) that funds their time as a student (the payment is housing, free tuition, books/equipment, etc); I know no one who lists this as a real job on subsequent resumes unless they have no other work experience to list.

      I would find it more remarkable if someone who was getting a PhD listed a real job simultaneously; it would likely be one of the first things I asked about in any interview.

      1. Myrin*

        Your first paragraph isn’t how it works here (at least not in my and adjacent fields; I assume it’s different in the sciences) – I mean, the general structure exists but it would definitely be paid and also definitely be counted as a “real job” and listed under those.

        1. ThatOtherClare*

          Myrin, is it possible that your applicant did do a “real job” style PhD but didn’t realise that he was “allowed” to list it as such on his résumé? Resumes might seem normal and standard to those on the hiring end, but there are many confused and mystified job applicants who change jobs so infrequently that they don’t even realise there are conventions that one can easily look up online. The “You don’t know what you don’t know” trap is a common trap for job-seekers to fall into. Ironically, “being good at job applications” isn’t actually a skill that many of us need in order to excel at our jobs.

        2. amoeba*

          Hm, so you’d list the same thing twice? I mean, I assume he lists his PhD – that’s what I do as well, under “Education”. I don’t repeat basically the same thing under “Work Experience” because, well, it’s already on there! The PhD *was* my job! (Including stuff like teaching, etc., but I was, in fact, employed as a PhD student, and those things were just part of my normal duties, not a separate arrangement…)

    7. Zweisatz*

      (German opinion) Well if university etc covers the gap I wouldn’t worry at all. He focused on education, alright. I would probably ask out if interest if he had any other engagements during that time, but not concern.

      If several years were not filled with work OR school I would definitely feel the need to ask (but assuming there’s a concise explanation and he convinces me as a candidate otherwise, I would consider him).

    8. bamcheeks*

      Hmm– I was in Germany a lot between 1998-2008, and I knew a lot of unemployed / long-term student people, especially in Berlin and the new bundeslaender. 11 years is a long time for a PhD + unemployment, but 7 or 8 wouldn’t really make me blink.

      Did he do a Habilitation? Or would that usually be listed as employment?

      1. NotUnusual*

        In the scientific/technical fields I’m most familiar with, 11 years is at the upper edge of normal but not outside of it; you were definitely in “encouraged to finish up” territory when you hit 10 years, but there were usually a handful of people at 10+ at any given time. Most people took 7-8 years including the 2+ years of classes before their research started.

      2. amoeba*

        In my field, 7-8 would be *extremely* quick, 9-10 would be much more the norm! We have to do a 5 year degree before we’re allowed to start the PhD (and a lot of people take a little longer), and for a PhD, 3 years is again the absolute minumin – 4-5 is much more common.

        And yes, it was also pretty normal for people to chill a bit during their studies and take, like, 8 instead of 5 years to finish the 5 year degree – honestly, it’s so common I wouldn’t even notice!

    9. Myrin*

      Thanks all for the really helpful replies! This candidate is in my top three and actually the one whose past experience aligns most closely with my own – which is actually a bit atypical for someone in the job he’s applying for – so I’m looking forward to how he will fare in the interview.

    10. old song memories*

      I know you’ve picked not to ask, but my question is: given his candidacy for your job opening, would any answer he gave about whether or not he worked (*) summer jobs 20 years ago sway your decision for the job you are hiring for?

      (*) I have a PhD in a scientific field. While 11 years for one is on the long side, there could be reasonable explanations. Reasons my friends had long PhD’s: experiment scheduled to launch got delayed by two years, planned to study X animal behaviour, and a sudden crash in population once all the permits for site-specific work were granted (so, couldn’t just change location), inclement weather delayed launch/retrevial of equipment ….

    11. Alex*

      I think that you should leave it be. 2009 is a long time ago, and even if he was goofing off and being irresponsible or some other explanation that is less than flattering, if he has good history from 2009 until now, I’d take that as the person he is now.

    12. Isabel Archer*

      I agree with all the commenters who said it’s too long ago to matter. If the person really was in prison or some other questionable/derogatory circumstance that would disqualify his candidacy for the job, wouldn’t that information show up in a background check? Or does Germany not do those?

      Have you considered the applicant went “off-the-beaten-path” for a while? Joined an ashram, volunteered with the Peace Corps? Or just had a job that’s not remotely applicable to the one they’re applying for now? (I was a personal trainer for 3 years. It’s never on my resume. Sticks out like a sore thumb amidst all the other office/knowledge-worker roles.)

      As Alison has stated, a resume is a marketing document, not a scrupulous accounting of every job a person’s ever had or every month of a person’s adult existence. Job applicants don’t owe that to any employer.

    13. Observer*

      Should I ask about it or leave it be, seeing how it’s been many years since then?

      I don’t understand why this is even an issue for you?

      Someone stopped working and went (back) to school and got his PhD. He finished 15 years ago and had apparently *worked since then.* What is it that you are even worried about?

      1. fhqwhgads*

        It reads to me like it’s a question because the candidate seems to have taken 10 years to do his regular degree and another 10 years to do his PhD. And then worked for 15 years. I agree it’s too old to be very concerned about, but it IS weird.

  9. Two-Faced Big-Haired Food Critic*

    Has anyone heard about this? https://abc11.com/man-rescued-after-allegedly-left-stranded-colorado-mountain-colleagues/15239516/ A corporate team-building exercise. Yikes. I mean, remember a while back, someone wrote in because they didn’t want to go white-water rafting as a TBE? And IIRC, they were only worrying about damage to expensive dental work, and being cold and overexerted, not being stranded.

    On the bright side, this may be the beginning of the end for “outdoor life” TBEs!

    1. kalli*

      There was a discussion in the work open thread already, if you want to go back and have a read. It also briefly touched on another incident where an employee was found deceased at work.

    2. WoodswomanWrites*

      This news has apparently reached a national audience since I’ve been seeing references to it in multiple places. What a mess. I’m glad the guy who got left behind survived. As a hiker myself, this situation was preventable on so many levels, of course starting with the ridiculousness of using a physical challenge climbing to 14,000+ feet for “team-building.”

      They didn’t keep the whole group together on the way up so he was alone and behind. They didn’t do a head count before they headed down, and therefore removed their belongings that were marking the trail while he was still en route. When he called the rest of the group because he was lost, they waited to call search and rescue for hours until 9:00 at night, even after a storm came in, so he ended up overnight in the dark. The whole group had no business being there without a guide who knew what s/he were doing.

      Sheesh. Thank goodness he survived and was taken to the hospital.

      1. Zweisatz*

        He fell several times and couldn’t get up the last time. I would have nothing nice to say to my colleagues at that point.

      2. londonedit*

        It’s been reported here too, so it’s reached an international audience! Sounds like a total disaster all round.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        “Oh just go back up and take the right way down.” To the co-worker who’d been lagging and no one bothered to stay with him. And then to remove the markers without checking!?

        Jerks. I wonder if they assumed he bailed early and this was their way to “encourage him to succeed”.

      4. bamcheeks*

        People should refer to this kind of stuff instead of “cargo cult” behaviour (which is all sorts of racist and imperialist.) You are doing stuff that LOOKS like you think a team-building activity should look, except it’s the exact opposite of working like a team.

      5. Observer*

        As a hiker myself, this situation was preventable on so many levels,

        I’m not a hiker, at all, but even I read what happened and could not help thinking “You did WHAT?!?” with increasing horror. Just total lunacy.

        The whole group had no business being there without a guide who knew what s/he were doing.

        Seriously! The sheer stupidity of that first decision makes the rest a TOUCH less surprising.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Right? Just reading about the initial hike had me noping out; I can think of more dangerous “team building” exercises, like shark diving with no cage, but the sheer amount of “figure it out as you go” happening means that company was damn lucky they aren’t being investigated for a wrongful death.

      1. Genevieve*

        People sometimes get charged for rescue in certain circumstances (like when they directly ignore posted warnings) – I sincerely hope the company gets charged the full price for this one.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Right? Normally I don’t immediately jump straight to litigation, but if this happened to me, I would probably call my lawyer the second I got home.

    4. Zircon*

      I was just coming here to post about this! I’d be interested to be a fly on the wall in that office when he returns to work!!

    5. Ana Gram*

      Between this and the poor woman who passed in her cube at Wells Fargo, I’m really over the idea of giving everything I’ve got to work. Good lord.

    6. Cardoons are delicious*

      Yes, this was so egregious on so many levels! I would bet good money that this is a small privately-held firm without dedicated HR staff that tells you they are “like family” in the interview. I hope he sues and I like the notion someone replying here suggested, which is for SAR to sue the company to recover the cost of the rescue operation. I’m tempted to say that he should sue each individual on his “team” out of justifiable spite, and if there’s no case to be made for that, he should at least start the process and let a judge throw it out, so those people have to sweat a little. Generally I’m inclined to lay responsibility on management but leaving your colleague behind in the wilderness is crap behavior. What were they thinking!? I get group think happens but if there is no one on the team willing to push back on egregious stuff like this….yikes.

      1. Texan In Exile*

        Nope. According to the story in they NYTimes, it was “Beazley, a London-based global insurance firm.”

        Insurance. Which is all about evaluating risk.

    7. Madre del becchino*

      I read about it here first, then heard it as a question on the NPR quiz show Wait Wait, Don’t Tell Me. (Me in the car: “Ooh, ooh, I know this one! I read it on Ask a Manager!”

    8. Kay*

      Details keep coming out in bits and pieces, but it seems like this is actually a charity event the company participates in annually, the employee has done this hike and summited before, chose to leave his group to summit being as the rest decided to turn back, etc. Somebody definitely should have contacted authorities sooner, there was so much stupidity going on all around and I am absolutely interested in what really happened after we have all the information.

      I won’t lie – being as the guy is an accountant I had to wonder if it was Guacamole Bob. My husband is betting no since initial reports say he was well liked. I am going with group effort conspiracy.

  10. Feeling Feline*

    This is pretty much my go to place for cat advice now, so here. For people with long fur monsters who loves to make litterbox art everywhere ,what is your handheld vacuum of choice? Or maybe I’m looking at the wrong things by thinking vacuum? I use non-tracking pallets, and littermats. My cat will not tolerate lidded litterboxes.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I’m having good luck with the CatGuru Cat Litter Mat XL, which traps litter better than any other cat mat I’ve had. For handheld vacuum, I use the BLACK+DECKER dustbuster PIVOT VAC Cordless Handheld Vacuum, Home and Car Vacuum with Crevice Tool and Pivot Nozzle (BDH2000PL). I got both on Amazon.

      2. Ghostess*

        I don’t have cats anymore, but I do have a long haired German Shepherd and that same Black and Decker vacuum and it is amazing. A friend gave me an old upright Dyson, and I actually use the little Black and Decker much more than that because it’s way more convenient and has a ton of power.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      We have ours in a room with laminate flooring, so we just keep a broom and a long-handled dustpan out there, that’s the fastest way to get everything, IMO. But we also have a Shark Wandvac that is great for small areas. Easy to empty, and really strong. If you have the boxes in a carpeted room, IMO the only option is a good upright vacuum, just move the boxes and run the vacuum every so often, it’s the fastest way to get it all.

    3. Double A*

      After much hemming and hawing, I just bought a cordless vacuum. I use it mostly for litter but also it’s great for just small quick floor clean up.

      I bought the Tineco Pure ONE S11 Cordless Vacuum Cleaner. It’s $300 but I use it daily and I love it and I vacuum the whole house much more often with it because I can quickly take it from room to room. It also can be converted to a handheld (ie non-stick) and comes with useful attachments.

    4. 1 Non Blonde*

      Target (if you’re in the US) has an absolute amazing litter collector mat by the up&up brand—the Drizzle Cat Litter mat. It stops litter from tracking, but I guess it doesn’t help for litter art.

    5. RLC*

      Our girls get “enthusiastic” with the litter whilst covering their business, leading to drifts of litter beyond the open litterboxes. I bought the largest size washing machine drain pan available (hard plastic) and it contains most of the drifts for easy cleanup. Any liquids or solids which “miss the bucket” usually end up in pan instead of floor. Placed extra large litter catching mats around the drain pan for secondary containment. And yes, the whole arrangement does resemble some sort of miniature hazmat storage area, but it works.

      1. ThatOtherClare*

        You’ve gone wide, I went deep with my set-up. One of my two kicks litter everywhere, but the walls are deep enough that it just hits the sides and falls back down. I didn’t want to have to clean the crevices of a lidded box, but deep walls give me the best of both worlds – a tall box with sheer sides for cleaning.

        Also, top tip – one can spinkle a handful of activated charcoal through your litter for impressive levels of odour absorption. I buy it in the fish section of the pet shop at the same time as I stock up on litter.

    6. goddessoftransitory*

      I used a Dyson when we had carpet–two to three times a day with a weekly full vacuum. Now we have that vinyl-wood flooring and sweep all day long with our regular broom.

    7. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      Since you specifically mention long fur, are your cats getting dingleberries attached to their fur that later get dislodged or removed when they groom themselves? If they are ask your vet or groomer about a “sanitary trim”.

  11. Trellabella*

    So I recently found out that the contract under which I’ve been working for the past 10 years is being terminated and I’ll be out of a job as of the end of October (I work in a field where I provide training and auditing to programs for the state). Our directive is to scale back a lot of what we’ve been doing for work so we can wrap up by October 31 but also to continue business as usual? I find that I’m really struggling with motivation at work when I don’t have trainings scheduled that I need to follow through on. Has anyone been laid off and figured out how to stay motivated to do the work knowing that the end is coming? I find myself spending more and more time browsing for jobs than doing my job.

    1. OxfordBlue*

      Oof, sorry you’re in this situation especially with such short notice. One thing that leapt to mind for me was that you might try thinking about what you want your references to say about you and then consider these next few weeks as reference polishing first and foremost.
      Hopefully that would give you some motivation bearing in mind that most people tend to have very short memories for anything other than their own concerns.
      Good luck with getting that new job.

    2. LetGo*

      Those rare times when I had notice were usually expected fixed end dates for contracts (I’ve been extended a few times, but most contracts are a set length for budget reasons and don’t have give) so I knew going in that X would be my last day. When I’ve been laid off from either a job or a contract it usually takes effect immediately, but I have had two layoffs from fulltime jobs that had a gap between notice and effective date and some contracts that required I get 7-10 days notice if they end things early. In those cases one of these things happened:

      1. I was given the choice of walking away immediately or getting another 2-3 weeks of pay to put my work affairs in order – write down processes and procedures, finish a few tasks, etc. I always stayed, and these often made for the busiest work periods I’ve had so no extra motivation was needed

      2. I was given a long ramp down period but not expected to actually do any work. I was allowed/expected to use work resources to look for my next position. This sounds great, but I found it difficult and a bit baffling.

      3. I was given 7-10 days notice that a contract was ending early. In this case, I was vaguely expected to wrap things up if I could, but I wasn’t expected to do any new work. Reading between the lines, I think this may be closest to where you’re at. I would argue it’s unlikely they expect you to be super productive. If you wrap up existing stuff as best you can and leave some process documentation behind they’ll probably be very happy. You’re expected to use these times to mentally start disengaging; it just sounds like you’re a bit ahead of the curve.

      So unless your job is telling you they’re unhappy with your production and you’re not lying about anything I’d say you’re probably okay being not very motivated. If it really bothers you, I’d have a conversation with your boss about what they expect you to do during this period, but it’s unlikely they’ll bluntly say not much even if that’s true.

      PS I would not do any job hunting using your current employer’s resources unless they give you explicit permission

    3. Comma Queen*

      I was in that position earlier this year. We lost a recompete and knew that the winning team was going to end up failing (they have struggled a lot so far). Our goal was to set up our clients for success so that they would have a positive perspective on our work. We have many contracts with the overarching organization, so keeping relationships strong was a priority.

      The most helpful thing was to make a list of all the things I would have kept doing if the contract continued that someone else would be picking up instead, so we could make a transition plan. Most likely, they’re not planning on everything suddenly changing over next week or waiting until October 31st, so you’ll have time to document processes and contacts, transition, and be available for questions.

      We also ended up with people moving to new jobs well before the official end date, so that helped fill our time for those who stayed until the last day. We were all encouraged to keep job searching even while HR tried to set up new placements, which took off the pressure to slow roll everything.

      Don’t feel bad that you’re struggling with motivation, it’s so, SO normal. It’s 10 years of your professional experience, and you’re not really getting to end it on your own terms, which sucks.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, sending sympathy from Layoff Land.

      I’ve never known a layoff was coming. Both times, they sprung it on me suddenly, like “This is your last day, here’s a pay stub and some paperwork/we’ll send you paperwork, you’re eligible for rehire,” then I pack up and leave.

      I would just figure out what you can do to wrap up and make a plan for having it done by the end date. LetGo’s advice to document everything is good — that will make it easier for the next person who comes in (assuming they revive the work later on), and help you fill up the time. Believe me, the next person will thank you. I once came into a job where the employee left before they hired someone (she moved out of state to get married), and she had created an entire file of procedural documents for everything. It was a very meticulous job with a six-month training period and her instructions were extremely helpful.

      In fact, she came in one day months later when visiting the area, and I was able to thank her in person. Ever since, I’ve made it a point in every job to write up my training notes for anyone taking over for me either during my PTO or if there are ever layoffs.

    5. Reebee*

      “I find myself spending more and more time browsing for jobs than doing my job.”
      —–

      FWIW, rightly or wrongly, that’s exactly what I’d be doing.

  12. Janne*

    Good morning!

    I am terribly stressed because I had a final interview for a PhD position last Wednesday and they promised me to contact me “beginning of next week” to tell me if I got the position. And it’s “beginning of next week” now, plus I know the longer it takes for me to hear something the bigger the chance that they went with the other candidate (they’ll then just call me after the other candidate has agreed to take the position).

    This was my best interview out of all the PhDs I interviewed for so far, I don’t know if there will be many more opportunities in this (quite narrow) field, so it feels like this is my best and only chance.

    If they do call me with good news, the next challenge will be to tell my current job that I’m leaving, which will be a message they won’t like. I’ve only been here 6 months and I’m on a short term grant – they probably won’t find someone else to do the rest of this job soon enough.

    Any tips beyond “remember to keep breathing”?

    1. Coffee Snob/Knob*

      From my experience from the academic world, a vague answer like “beginning of next week” is more like “sometime next week”. Given how slow some of the decisions can be made in academia, a final decision is sometimes delayed because one person got caught up in other meetings, or another just couldn’t decide and put it off over the weekend. It sucked when I was running events for universities that required stakeholder input and sign-offs.

    2. Tired Librarian*

      In my experience it is almost never possible to actually achieve the communication timeline you hope for when interviewing (so I’ve started telling candidates at least a full week later than what I am hoping for, because people would rather hear earlier than expected than later)! So I definitely would try not to read anything into any delay at all, and just assume that the person who told you that probably didn’t factor in the time it takes to jump through the admin hoops before contacting someone…

      1. Janne*

        Thanks!

        The person who told me “beginning of the week” is the professor who’s hiring, and he is the typical professor who has definitely not thought about any practicalities. I have no idea what admin things there are to do, but I think it’s really likely that he’s stuck there. Also, the academic year starts today so he might also be busy teaching.

        I’ll try to change my expectations. Being this stressed and distracted doesn’t help at all.

    3. NormalPractice*

      Know this is completely normal. I always ask for a timeline for next steps, then wait significantly longer than that before following up (once). Most of the time I get back a response that they’re still working on it – someone got busy, someone got sick, an emergency popped up, it just took longer than expected, the person who gave you the timeline forgot about X or Y when telling you how long it would ge, etc.

      So this is totally normal. If you don’t hear by then, follow up sometime next week.

    4. Pocket Mouse*

      Also- if the university is in the US, the beginning of the week doesn’t start until tomorrow, since today is a holiday.

      1. Janne*

        I’m in the Netherlands. It would have been nice to have a holiday today, because normally I go for a run or a bike ride to get rid of stress, but instead I’m sitting at work being way too distracted.

    5. bamcheeks*

      I applied for an internal job on 12 August, which had no deadline but said they expected interviews to be mid-late August. (UK, so they would interview everyone at the same time, not rolling interviews.) I emailed HR last week to see if they had an updated timeline and they said they thought shortlisting was taking place an I’d probably hear by the end of (last) week and to let them know if I hadn’t. I emailed again today to say I hadn’t.

      No advice, just sharing your pain!

    6. londonedit*

      Not sure whether this varies across cultures, but to me ‘beginning of the week’ means ‘any time before about Wednesday’. I’d be surprised if it meant Monday. Mondays are for catching up with things that didn’t get done at the end of the previous week, and on emails etc that have come in over the weekend – I’d expect to wait until Tuesday really. But with things like this you never quite know whether the ‘we’ll be in touch in a few days!’ actually means that or whether other things will end up getting in the way.

    7. Samwise*

      If you’re in the US— it’s Labor Day weekend. No one did any work on Friday, everyone will be catching up Tuesday and Wednesday. Maybe you will hear this week. Or maybe next week.

    9. goddessoftransitory*

      Are you in the US? Labor Day weekend may be messing with their timeline as far as “early” goes for the work week.

    10. ThatOtherClare*

      They’re academics. “The beginning of next week” means “Some time in the next fortnight, idk when, I’m just trying to sound formal”. They’re probably wrapped up in some petty bickering with The Dean about which funding source will be re-allocated to pay you and whose budget your IT equipment will come from. They’ll remember to email you once they’ve finished the wet noodle fight and somebody has stomped off in a dramatic huff.

      Don’t forget that Professors are people who dumped all their stats into intelligence – they often don’t leave many brain cells spare for wisdom and charisma. It sounds like they’re getting to you already! You’ll have more chances if you want them, and whatever research group you join will be lucky to have your new perspective, because different thinking styles accelerate the rate of discovery.

      Your old team will be a bit annoyed, but not at you if you’re polite and apologetic. Just at the universe and the system for being the way that it is, such that your leaving is a problem. They’ll be a little hurt now and by the end of your PhD they’ll have only the fond memories left and talk about how you were the best minion they ever had. Far better than the latest one (who will also become best minion once they leave). Such is the circle of life, young Simba.

      Good luck with your future research. You can DO this!

    11. Honoria Lucasta*

      I’m in academia (just finished my PhD), and I was once told by a colleague that you should take whatever number you’re given, double it, and then take the unit and increase it by one step. So something an academic says will take one hour… expect it in two days. If they say two days, look for it in four weeks. Etc.

      Sometimes it works out faster than this, but doing these mental transformations has helped to keep me from getting prematurely anxious.

    12. Janne*

      I GOT THE PHD POSITION!

      Tuesday afternoon is “beginning of the week” obviously. So that promise was true. The 1.5 day of stress were worth it.

      He said he had to talk with quite some people to make a careful decision, and they decided it’s going to be me.

      I’m so excited!

  13. Coffee Snob/Knob*

    I am struggling with managing a subordinate as a manager. While this is not my first time managing people as part of my work (usually as a lead or as a supervisor or while managing crews/events), this is the first time I have had full responsibility of managing someone in an office setting. Obligatory, not in the US.

    Recently, a fellow manager, whose department crosses responsibilities with mine, has suggested to me off the books that a particular subordinate should be let go. There are a few reasons cited, which culminated in this discussion.

    1. Mistakes made in the line of his work. These are not the same mistakes being made over and over, but more like typos and errors. However, these can lead to serious considerations for the company, should they not have been caught by me. This leads me to having to dedicate time to monitor his output, in an already busy job that I would rather let him run on his own with minimal supervision.

    2. Reluctance to take up responsibilities that would contribute to the team, but does not add value to his job scope. This is one of the pain points of my company. My boss refuses to let me increase headcount, but this subordinate refuses to do the follow up work for sales, arguing that it would take more time away from the sales he could be doing, which my boss agrees. However, that leaves the admin and other follow up to me, which I have been overloading myself on. He basically refuses to do any work which wasn’t part of his job scope, or doesn’t contribute to his commissions. He is paid both a salary plus comms for any sales closed.

    3. Lack of results. He has placed a lot of effort into making sales calls and cold calling potential customers. However, he has yet to bring in a sale from cold leads from the 1 year of working at my company. Any sales he has closed, is with my assistance on some level, and all from warm leads from the company. He claims he has had 5 years of prior industry experience, which I am beginning to wonder because some of the questions he asks me makes me wonder if he lied on his resume (or oversold himself).

    These are the main reasons cited by the other team manager, who has my boss’s ear right now, so any suggestion will be placed of greater importance than mine. Professionally, I find that my subordinate is a hard and earnest worker, in a very competitive industry where every lead is being hotly contested right now. There could be a whole slew of reasons why he is not showing results, but he has yet to make a sale in the past 4 months. My peer said that we have no bandwidth to accommodate an under-performer and someone who doesn’t contribute to the team, which is why we should let him go.

    I have a whole lot of problems with my boss and company, but that is for another day. I am just trying to be the best manager I can right now. Some people think I should give him a heads up, some think I should put him on a PIP, some think I should just let him go. What should I do?

    1. PX*

      Obligatory AAM follow up question: have you had a *clear and direct* conversation with him where you lay out *very clearly and bluntly* what your problems are with their behaviour, what needs to change and what next steps look like?

      If the answer is no, start there. This is one of Alison’s regular points about first time managers, not giving clear, direct feedback to people doesn’t help them succeed. So in your case, start by addressing the lack of results because tbh, even if they fix the small mistakes, a salesperson who doesn’t sell isn’t going to last long anywhere.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I agree, especially about the first two points: you aren’t his teacher whose job it is to monitor his output for errors, and he needs to organize his time better to do ALL of his job, which includes the stuff he’s refusing to do in order to do more cold calls that are not generating business.

      2. Coffee Snob/Knob*

        Thanks PX for your comment. I have directly addressed the problem of his constant mistakes, which he tries but he isn’t great at recognizing typos etc., and also of the part of him not contributing to the team, to which his response effectively, “I am here to close sales, and all these are getting in the way of me doing sales.”

        I have not addressed the lack of results, but my boss constantly hounds us for sales anyway, and has noticed and spoken to him about that as well.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          “But you’re not closing sales, dude. At least not sales that we wouldn’t have closed without you. Superstars might get away with pushing the boring paperwork onto others. You’re not a superstar.”

          I mean, not in those exact words…

    2. Anonosaurus*

      I think the main thing that matters here is his lack of sales. presumably you have metrics which show this and his performance is lower than expected for this role and in comparison with peers. if things have got to the stage where you think you might have been lying about his track record then it is clear he is underperforming at the core job expectation which is bringing in sales. if he was bringing in sales but bad at all the other ancillary tasks then this would be a coaching issue, but it surely isn’t controversial to fire a sales executive who doesn’t close sales? I wonder if your inexperience at management and the other issues about his performance are getting in the way of this a bit? if I were you I would be working towards termination within whatever legal and procedural framework applies in your location based primarily on the poor sales performance and if necessary bringing in the other issues.

      1. Anonosaurus*

        PS if someone fails at the core competency of their job that does not mean you have not managed him well, it means he shouldn’t have got the job in the first place. management is about guiding people and giving them focus and structure and providing support and coaching where there is a prospect of improved performance and to develop them for promotion. above entry level I don’t believe it encompasses teaching them the core functions of their job which they have claimed to be doing for several years. To put this in context as an attorney I would want and expect coaching from a manager on bringing in clients and becoming a more persuasive advocate but I wouldn’t expect her to teach me the technical content of the law.

      2. Coffee Snob/Knob*

        Unfortunately I have to agree. He is simply not generating the sales needed for the job he was hired for. We have a high KPI (while I believe is ridiculously high), which he has not contributed to at all for at least 1/3 of the year.

        The comment about lying about track record is a bunch of small questions which taken individually, are innocuous enough. However, looking at the larger picture, they are more questionable. The questions lie more in the “common knowledge for someone in the industry for 5 years”, yet he is coming to ask me about them, OR not taking them into account during the proposal creation process.

        I am worried because its the first time I’ve had so much trepidation thinking about firing someone, unlike my events where I’ve let people go on the spot. Perhaps I am over thinking this.

    3. Comma Queen*

      If he’s not making sales lately and he refuses to help with admin work, is what he’s contributing worth having him there? It doesn’t sound like there are any upsides to keeping him on. Yes, letting him go means you have to do the hiring process, but how much time are you putting into helping him?

      All that said, you have an obligation as a manager to make sure he’s clear on expectations AND the fact that he’s not meeting them, which would likely lead to a formal PIP if you don’t see change after that conversation. You described him as a “hard and earnest worker” but that doesn’t mean that he’s meeting expectations or providing the value he needs to when your boss won’t allow you to bring someone else on.

      1. Observer*

        If he’s not making sales lately and he refuses to help with admin work, is what he’s contributing worth having him there?

        I think that this is the key point.

        I agree that a serious conversation and possibly a PIP are in order. But yes, I do unfortunately think that letting this person go has to be on the table.

        In fact, to NOT factor that in would be worse management failure than letting him go, once you lay out the issues.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        “Hard and earnest worker” only can take somebody so far, I agree. If, after four months the guy hasn’t made even one sale? It doesn’t matter how earnest he is, or how hard he’s working–he’s not doing what needs to be done. If he was working in a library and spending all his time polishing the card catalogue cabinets instead of shelving it would be the same thing.

      3. Coffee Snob/Knob*

        I have made him clear of the expectations, both from my end and from the management perspective. I strive to make him understand what expectations made by the management are not from me, BUT still need to be met to the best efforts, and any unreasonable expectations from the management will be pushed back by me. He has constantly said he is trying, but trying is quite frankly, not good enough.

    4. Another Sunny Day*

      It does sound like he needs to be much more closely managed. Have you told him that you expect him to review his work first, turn in an error-free work product, complete other tasks as assigned and and close sales from cold calls? Or have you just been observing these performance deficits and working around them? If you haven’t been direct with him that these are nonnegotiable expectations, and that his job is in jeopardy unless he meets them, you need to have that conversation now and get very very clear with him about what he must do to be successful in the role, and by when. It isn’t fair to an employee to fire them out of nowhere; from their perspective, they’re just continuing to put the kind of effort that the employer has deemed acceptable. You should also ask your boss what your organization’s policies are with regards to performance improvement and termination. It’s common for companies to require managers to follow a highly structured performance management process, which requires first that higher-ups review and approve even initiating the process, review and approve a draft of the PIP, and attend meetings with the manager as the PIP process moves forward. Generally, unless there’s some kind of egregious incident like theft, embezzling, assault, threats etc., companies don’t go straight to termination, for many reasons. Firing people can create a legally complicated situation for the employer, so it’s best to move forward in a careful, deliberate way. Jumping straight to termination can also seriously damage an employer’s reputation: other employees are watching how management treats the workforce. It’s essential to show people respect and compassion in performance management situations; the potential for negative impact on morale, turnover and hiring is very high. It’s also just the right thing to do.

      1. HoundMom*

        What is the expected timeframe to close sales in your field? In my current company they give two years and unless someone can move past sales from their prior employer that seems to be about right. They shorten or extend upon actual activity. In past companies the timeframe was shorter and there was tons of turnover and limited sales.

        I would still find his lack of doing any admin a jerk move and a reason to put him on notice.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          Agree so much with your last paragraph. I’ve never been in sales or management, but an employee who refuses to help the team is someone I would consider a jerk. I wonder how his coworkers see him, and whether that would be relevant to the way you address this.
          Also, that you, his boss, have to pick up the slack with the teamwork is not fair to you, and probably unsustainable.

          1. Coffee Snob/Knob*

            Quite frankly, I’m struggling, and I am looking for a way out of the company. My pleas with my management have gone unheard, despite me listing down and showing the extent of my responsibilities, my boss has stubbornly believed that the team needs to close more sales before he can allow more new hires. I brushed over it in my final paragraph where I said I have my own problems with the boss and the company.

            Going back to my subordinate, he has a few co-workers whom he is collaborating with in other teams, who seem perfectly happy with his hardworking and earnest attitude. However, the lack of sales has also caused a bit of a rift, as any sales made would mean comms for them, but he has trouble closing them. If we are talking about colleagues on a larger company sense, he seems friendly with everyone, but more than a few have come to me to ask me how am I managing him because he seems ‘weird’ to some people.

        2. Coffee Snob/Knob*

          Sales contracts in my industry last years, and you usually will not be able to move business over from your prior employer to your new company. The sales process is estimated in months. However, he has been here for a full year and he has yet to close a single sales on his own, or bring in a single cold lead.

  14. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

    Your stressfulness is legitimate! The outcome of the interview is out of your control now and that’s a yucky feeling isn’t it. Perhaps the other candidate won a lottery on the weekend, or unexpectedly inherited a mansion in a far flung country, or decided to take a year off- many unexpected things can happen. You have done what you can- you were eligible, you were interviewed, you are now in the waiting stage.
    I feel the best way to get through the coming week will be to indulge in some relaxing distractions, which you probably haven’t been able to do for a while – can you take a day off? Are there any lighthearted movies showing near you? Can you have a massage or a pedicure or a smart haircut? Is there a gallery nearby or a community centre doing any one day art/craft courses? Can you listen to a funny audio book? What would give you a good laugh? Any nearby friends you could meet for lunch by going to their workplace? Keeping breathing is good, as is staying hydrated. Anywhere you can go for a swim, any nearby beach to walk on? Take a ball with you in case you meet a nice dog.
    This is just a short time of anxiety, in the overall scheme of things. You need short term distractions for the next week or so. Then you will be on to the next life event, whatever that will be for you. Get yourself a treat of some kind, to mark this stage – a new pillow? New pair of socks? – to say Hey, now I am at the interviewing stage of having a phd! Congratulations and good luck to you!

  15. Hallo*

    I’m trying to learn German through self study but struggle with self direction (and there’s no courses within 2 hours of me). I’ve found some good online tutorials and videos, but would love to have some sort of learning planner or templates. Does anyone know of any good templates I could use?

    1. Lynn*

      I’m not sure what you mean by a template, honestly, but here are some suggestions:

      Deutsch Aktuell – this is my favorite German textbook. Solid grammar instruction while also including vocab and conversation. Downside as a self-taught student is there isn’t someone there to pronounce things for you.

      All the grammar in the world won’t help if you don’t know words. I like making a list of vocabulary words (if they’re nouns, include their definite article in your list) and reviewing it multiple times per day. One week maybe you learn furniture. Another week numbers. Another week transportation words. I print out the list and then take it with me everywhere and review it in all the little bits of downtime in a day.

      Online apps are good for pronunciation. The ones I’ve found teach grammar by usage rather than giving the rules which is not my own preferred way to learn grammar in other languages. So I like them for practice hearing the language, but I don’t prefer them as my primary instruction.

    2. Wolf*

      As a side note: I recommend the “Learn and Play” app to play a bit between real lessons. It’s fun and casual, and you can use little gaps in your schedule, like waiting for a bus, to learn a few words.

      Viel Spaß!

    3. the Viking Diva*

      Have you considered an app such as Duolingo? It’s not great for organizing actual concepts (such as forms of regular nouns ) but for structured drill-and-practice, and exposure to new vocabulary, it can be very helpful. For me, the gamified elements keep me plugging away at it. You can test into the higher level so you don’t have to start at the very beginning. I use other sites and materials to give me the big picture.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Yeah, you’re not going to learn to speak another language using Duolingo alone, but it is absolutely fantastic at keeping you on track. It’s a great place to start, and use to form a base for other things.

    4. Sister George Michael*

      The italki app is great for finding a teacher who’s a native speaker, and you can review different teaching styles. Each teacher sets her own fees.

    5. StarryStarryNight*

      Not sure if I’m understanding correctly what you’re looking for, but the Goethe-Institut has an FAQ on its website that outlines what you’d be able to talk about after an A1, A2, (…) class. So that might give you an idea for which topics to tackle in which order. Hang on in there und viel Erfolg!

    6. jinni*

      Also native German language TV if you can swing it. It’s how I keep up my skills (and slang) in two other languages.

      1. Fluff*

        Yes to this – especially if you can find shows you may have seen in English and love. It can expand your vocabulary and help with the sounds. I put my Kinder on Disney in German with subtitles, my hubs through Star Trek or now the Amazon Lord of the Rings series.

        Yes, they are full of funky words like the German for left nacelle on a star ship, but it does help.

        I also recommend those subtitles be on in German. Play with it – then do English speaking with German subtitles.

    7. Seconds*

      I highly recommend spending as much time as possible listening to interesting stories and such in easy German.

      A few years ago I made a list of resources for studying. I need to update it (since I am continuing to improve my understand how how people learn, and I need to update dead links and such), but there are fabulous resources out there! Here it is. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CjbIrHtw1Kfquww3eHdtt5aD4ZSg4uVAJwalaqR60aw/edit

      Another resource that may give you the template you are seeking is called Refold. A search for Refold German should get you there.

  16. WheresMyPen*

    I’ve heard Alison say lots of times that spouses or people in relationships shouldn’t manage each other, but then in my discrimination training recently it said this:

    “Everyone in a marriage or civil partnership has the same rights in all areas of the law,
    such as survivor pensions, flexible working, healthcare insurance, and maternity or paternity pay; and it’s discrimination if someone is treated unfairly because of this protected characteristic –
    for example – if an employer doesn’t offer a job or promotion to a suitably qualified person, just because that person would be reporting directly to their spouse or civil partner.”

    doesn’t that directly negate Alison’s advice? It’s in the UK but still seems like a bad idea that a company wouldn’t be allowed to stop someone reporting to their spouse or partner. Thoughts?

    1. GythaOgden*

      Alison isn’t up on UK law, which has different stipulations per the Equality Act (like a tiny amount of permissible positive discrimination in terms of enabling firms to give preference to disabled candidates in case a tie-breaker is needed, which has done me some good in the past once I had an autism dx). Our systems are oceans apart, literally.

      It does sound a bit odd, but best practice in non-discrimination must just vary from culture to culture. I’d definitely hope in practice people do consider that to be a bad idea and take pains to avoid it. The solution, from what I gather through observing management for the past 10 months, comes in doing all your due diligence documenting the process and your decision-making which would hopefully show consideration was given to the practical impact of one spouse reporting to another.

      What is interesting, however, is that one lady I work with jumped ship from a large estate agent with awful management to our team. Shortly afterwards, another colleague, a direct report also suffering with the same bad boss, joined her in interviewing with us and was shortlisted for the job as her deputy. My boss, wise as she is, decided not to put the two together to inadvertently form a clique, but had another opening for the same job under another manager a couple of months later, meaning the two could get out of House’o’Bees Ltd and work together, just not in a direct chain of command. The process was pretty smooth and the two colleagues were kept in the loop during the transition period, my boss making it clear what the thought process was as to why it wouldn’t necessarily be a good idea for them to work directly together in our org.

      So while on paper, it could get messy fast, I’d hope in practice there were informal safeguards in place to stop that happening. I know one married couple work in parallel roles together and back in the day had a couple of friends in the same situation, but they didn’t actually report to each other. I also knew several couples who worked in the same building but in different departments entirely. (I read Lear’s Quangle-Wangle poem last night and that actually sounds so much like our building that I was thinking of starting a thread on ‘what nonsense poetry best describes your workplace?’ and maybe I will put it in Friday’s thread.) It was at least an unspoken rule that you don’t report to your spouse, but hopefully it’s more than that and people avoid litigating on the subject at all because they recognise the dangers involved and companies correspondingly do that homework.

    2. Beth**

      I am UK based and that feels like a misreading of the Equality Act to me. I think the protection is intended to be more along the lines of “we don’t hire married women because they will probably get pregnant and take mat leave” or “we pay married men more than single men because they have families to support.”

      We definitely have roles where I work that can’t be done by two people who are closely connected because of the risk of collusion/fraud/theft/etc. That can be a romantic relationship but also parent-child, siblings or even platonic housemates.

    3. 2e asteroid*

      “This is a bad idea” and “it is illegal to stop people from doing this” are not contradictory statements.

    4. Jellybeans*

      This is an American blog. Little of the advice given here is going to be applicable in other countries. (And the advice given here is just one person’s opinion, based on their one industry and one country – it’s not like Al’s advice is The Law or anything. Just one person’s personal opinion – often incredible useful to people in that specific situation/industry but hardly universal.)

    5. Vincent Adultman’s assistant*

      It’s *UK law* versus the **opinions of an American-based blogger whose work experience was with American offices and norms**

      Each country or culture will have its own nuances, history, etc that shapes its laws and practices.

  17. Internal interviews*

    Anyone have any top tips for internal interviews, particularly if your boss is on the panel? I’ve been on the other side of the situation before and I know the biggest trap people fall into is not remembering to actually give enough detail around examples because they assume the interviewers will read between the lines, but would love to hear if anyone has seen any particularly good/bad examples of internal interviewing!

    1. English Rose*

      I was on the panel a while back for an internal interview, together with the person’s boss and one other subject specialist.
      The candidate (one of four) asked in advance if they could give a brief presentation outlining how they would use their experience in the new role. Completely on their own initiative, not something we’d asked for. The presentation was probably under five minutes, but it was so well done it made us look at this person we thought we knew in a new light. They were successful.
      I guess you’d have to read the room and maybe a formal presentation wouldn’t be the way to go, but the mindset of being very specific about how to bring experience to bear is important.

    2. Mrs. Frisby*

      As someone who has sat in on a decent number of internal interviews I’d agree that bringing concrete examples and giving enough depth to answers is really important.

      Also, really successful internal applicants I’ve seen both show how their knowledge of internal processes and systems will be an asset but also show a genuine curiosity and interest in how this role is different and what they can learn from it and how they can grow.

      Also, a lot of internal applicants don’t come as prepared with questions as external ones—I’d still have a few substantive questions to discuss prepared.

      Good luck!

    3. Cordelia*

      I’ve been on both sides, and think my advice would be the same for both – pretend you have never met the other person before!

    4. this-is-fine.jpeg*

      Definitely don’t hesitate to sell yourself even though you assume the interviewer already knows everything about you! In many ways you should treat it like an external interview.
      I was the hiring manager once and the internal candidate was disappointingly weak bc she refused to boast about herself. It felt like she was lacking confidence — maybe thought she’d be a shoe-in?

      1. Internal interviews*

        Oof yes, I’ve also had the awful situation where someone who I knew as a strong candidate absolutely didn’t show it in the interview, so that’s absolutely front of my mind in terms of what to avoid! (I’m hoping it helps that I know I’m against strong internal candidates, so no risk of thinking I’ve already got this in the bag.)

    1. ecnaseener*

      Most advice columns? This blog’s readership tends to appreciate Captain Awkward in particular.

      But if you’re specifically looking for an advice column with an active comment section like AAM’s, I’m not sure.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          My impression is she opens the comments for certain articles when she wants them. But I only look at her site once in a while.

    2. Jay (no, the other one)*

      So, um, I kind of obsessively read advice columns. Captain Awkward. She’s not taking a lot of new questions right now because she’s writing a book. Her website is well-organized and a search on the specific topic would turn up a lot of stuff. I think she and Alison have done a couple of guest appearances in each other’s columns.

      I also follow Carolyn Hax in the Washington Post. Not sure if you can easily access her columns without a subscription.

      Slate has a slew of advice columns – general advice from Dear Prudence, parenting advice, sex advice, money advice, and pet advice that I can think of off the top of my head. The money advice column usually ends being a relationship advice column, which I find amusing.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, but the Slate comments aren’t for the faint of heart. I stopped reading Slate because the comments were generally so horrible to the LWs. Oregonlive is my go-to for other advice colums, there’s Dear Annie, Dear Abby, Asking Eric, and Miss Manners for interpersonal relationship advice.

    3. No Longer Working*

      There is a former employee of the Social Security Administration who knows EVERYTHING about Social Security and even personally answers all emails! His name is Tom Margenau and his columns appear every Wednesday on the Creators website. I look forward to his column every week.

      Of course you probably know of Carolyn Hax at WaPo for general life stuff.

      1. The Meat Embezzler*

        I appreciate the rec on Tom Margenau! My folks are getting close to retirement age and I’m happy to see another resource out there I can share with them if/when they have questions.

      1. 1 Non Blonde*

        Adulting 101-We Can Do It

        Here’s the thing: I need an adultier adult

        A group where you anonymously ask for advice

        Ask a mechanic for free

        Explain this to me, as I’m over 30 and therefore obviously a dinosaur

        Instructions for anxious people :)

        Day To Day Tasks And Life Explained Step By Step And Advice

    6. GythaOgden*

      MoneySavingExpert in the UK. The forums were very useful when I sold my old tat on eBay/Amazon, but there is a lot of life advice and budgeting tips between the owner, Martin Lewis, and the forums. Some of the advice will be UK-centric, but other areas will have more universal application.

      1. Say what?*

        Sold your own what? Sorry, a “tat” in the U.S. is a tattoo, and I’m guessing you mean something else. Please enlighten! :)

          1. Say What?*

            Ah! Thank you. I should know some British English by now, my relatives live in Britain, but that one had escaped me.

  19. Our Lady of Shining Eels*

    Has anyone undergone a cardiac ablation procedure? How long did you take off from work afterwards for recovery?

    I’m seeing a specialist in late October for a consultation (specifically for cardioneural ablation) so fingers crossed this medical issue (which has been effecting me at work, commuting, at home, etc) can be mostly resolved.

    1. HoundMom*

      Four people in my family went through this and they were back at work in a couple of days. I have no idea if that is “normal” but the recovery based on their accounts was smooth.

    2. Harriet J*

      My 50 year old husband had one last month and was working from home 2 days later (he did not work a full day). Within a week he was back to his regular work schedule.
      He recommends taking as many recovery days as you can just in case.
      Wishing you a successful procedure and full recovery.

    3. dapfloodle*

      What a lovely name you have! I had an ablation back in 2009 when I was in my late 20s, I had the heart condition WPW before that. It sounds like maybe yours is a different kind of cardiac ablation, mine removed/burned off something called a Bundle of Kent? Anyhow, I don’t really remember taking much time off? Maybe a day or two for the actual surgery and immediately after (I didn’t even remember doing that much but I asked my then-fiance/now-husband and he does think I took off a couple of days, but both of us agree that I had the surgery on a Thursday or Friday so I also had the weekend to recover)? I mean, when I went back to work I had restrictions of resting more and not lifting more than 20 pounds for like 2 weeks, but I had a desk job so that was mostly okay. But obviously there are probably different protocols for different individuals and different types of procedures. Hopefully the specialist you are consulting with will be able to give you some sort of idea of recovery time. Good luck!

      1. GythaOgden*

        Agree on OP’s username! I’m imagining a kind of Cthulhu Madonna, but with eels rather than squid. That’s one badass image, particularly if the eels are electric.

        1. Our Lady of Shining Eels*

          Aw thanks all!

          I was actually bit by an eel a few years back, and have just totally leaned into it. It’s quite the ice breaker!

    4. AnonForThis*

      Fingers crossed for you!

      I had an ablation for WPW about 20 years ago and was still in school. I didn’t need to take more than a few days off but struggled with tiredness from the anesthesia for a few weeks after. There was also soreness at the incision sites that increased if I sat up for a long time.

      I would ask about temporary accommodations to help with that on your return–can you WFH for a few weeks? Relaxed dress code to prevent irritating the incision sites? Start with half days and built in nap time?

      I would also ask HR about how easy it would be to add days if recovery is more challenging. Ideally, you’d get some flexibility whether that’s coming back early from a longer leave block or scheduling a shorter leave block with the option to extend.

  20. Part time lab tech*

    Anyone got a self advocacy emergency department checklist for reducing over intervention?

    1. Part time lab tech*

      Sorry, that’s a very wordy way of saying, I need to weigh up treatment/surveillance options for an incidental benign finding found on imaging few weeks ago. Probably I don’t need to do anything other than check its growth rate and I’m seeing my GP tomorrow.
      It led to minor emergency surgery that turned out to be unnecessary last week after I started getting more pain. I
      don’t want to make the same mistake and wanted to know what techniques do you use when your worry has overtaken their confidence (or outspokenness at least)?
      I feel a little foolish as well because I believe if I had asked, someone would have gone through the imaging with me and I strongly suspect that doing so would have lead to doubt on the original diagnosis and no surgery.

      1. Tipcat*

        Can you find a support group for your problem? They usually include people who have had your problem, cured or chronic.

      2. Part time lab tech*

        There’s plenty of general information about this fairly common issue. Wait and watch approach is good practice.
        My question is more about how people remember to ask questions in medical situations and weigh up options.
        (My hospital treatment was good, I just tend to analyse how things could have gone better.)

      3. Random Academic Cog*

        My best friend just had a major medical emergency and I was somewhat in awe of how she dealt with the ER staff. She asked every person who walked in what their name was, what their role was, if they’d ever done the procedure they were saying they needed to do, how many times they’d done the procedure, what the risks were, what would happen or was likely to happen if they didn’t do the procedure, what they would tell their family member to do. Then she used their first names for every question, response, and scream (she was in pretty bad shape, even with pain meds). It was pretty fascinating to watch. She had me looking up all sorts of things online and – similarly – the original radiology review was incorrect but on the side of underdiagnosing the problem. It took a specialist reviewing the scans to pick up the urgency of the situation, fortunately before they’d sent her home.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I am not entirely clear on the problem you’re trying to solve for. Do you mean that you were worried, and requested more intervention? Or that the provider recommended a more aggressive approach that you reluctantly agreed to?

      I usually ask things like, “Is this something my regular doctor can deal with?” or “What is the advantage of doing a procedure now rather than scheduling it for later?” or “What are the downsides of this procedure?”

      But ultimately, there is no way to make perfect medical decisions, especially when you’re in pain (or on pain medication). Even objective, highly trained professionals with medical knowledge are not always right.

      Did the procedure wind up making things worse, or was it just extraneous?

      1. Part time lab tech*

        I had unnecessary surgery based chiefly off the initial radiographer reports (I’m recovering fine and now I have a very accurate diagnosis from the extraneous surgery).
        I was worried so I became compliant and people with a lot more knowledge than I thought it was a likely emergency. I ignored doubts that perhaps no-one in hospital had looked at the actual images and double checked that findings and there were indications that the growth wasn’t near the organ it was assigned to.
        When I am worried, I can get overly compliant and block out doubt. What I’m hoping for is questions or methods people use when to ask and advocate is best practice but it all goes out of your head when put on the spot.
        I have previously written a list of questions and handed it to my doctor and that might be what I do tomorrow. That doesn’t help me in an urgent situation.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Well, if the surgery provided a more accurate diagnosis than the imaging, and the experts at the hospital thought it was an emergency, and the surgery didn’t make your condition worse, then it kind of sounds like you did the right thing in consenting to the procedure and had an overall positive outcome.

          That’s the kind of situation where being wrong in this direction (getting the surgery that could have waited) is a lot better than being wrong in the other direction (ignoring a real emergency).

          It’s really normal for things to go out of your head when you’re in pain or scared, and if an ER provider thinks it’s an emergency, they may not think there is time to get a second opinion.

          I suppose you could have a list that prompts you to ask to see the imaging yourself, and ask the provider to walk you step by step through their thought process in designating it as an emergency. That would help in situations where the nature of the urgency is the kind of thing that needs to be done within 24-72 hours. But if the provider believes you are in imminent life-threatening danger, I’m not sure it would be appropriate for them to stop and have a long conversation about it.

          If you put yourself in the habit of resisting and pushing back on medical advice in apparent emergencies, you’re more likely to have bad outcomes than avoid them.

            1. Hazel*

              Ack sorry – could you have someone calm who can ask questions is what I meant. Frequent advice for folks seeing healthcare providers.

    3. ThatOtherClare*

      I recommend looking at advice for people with ovarian cysts (even if you don’t have ovaries) because this is the exact problem that comes up for every single oversized ovarian cyst. The intense pain could be a life threatening complication like ovarian torsion so it always needs a scan. Then, if cysts are found it leads to a lot of choices based on size, previous medical history, risk of malignancy, pain levels etc etc. Watch and wait is a common approach, but so is surgery. Painful ovarian cysts are extremely common so it’s calculus that a lot if people have had to go through, sometimes multiple times over. There’s plenty of discussions you can read online where people make the choice, and sometimes if you’re lucky they’ll even include an update on the outcome.

      I also recommend looking into medical advocates. There are charities in some places or you can just pay someone who will stay on retainer for you like a lawyer who will jump in to help explain things, request things, and advocate for you if/when you have a need to interact with the medical system.

      Lastly, I am of the opinion that if you are in pain surgery is always a justifiable option (if that’s your choice). Always. The justification is the pain. Done. Everyone is always valid in saying “Please just cut me open to triple check, I just want the pain to stop and I’ll explore every avenue until it does!”. You didn’t overreact, you reacted. To pain! It wasn’t going away, it was there causing inflammation and raising your cortisol and reducing your world down to a tiny fuzzy ball of throbbing pain. I challenge anyone to choose differently in your situation. You weren’t foolish any more than the doctors who cut open my father at age 6 and whipped out his appendix over some indigestion. If they and his nurse mother weren’t fools for deciding it was better to double-check, then neither are you.

      It’s easy for people who aren’t in pain right now (including current you) to second guess past you because it’s difficult for us to remember being in that pain-brain space. Our brains mercifully protect us with fog and make us all forget. But if your brain was telling you “Pull out all the stops, now.”, well, it’s the only one with a direct hard wired connection and full overview of whatever was happening in your body, so I 100% believe that it knew what it was talking about and gave you those directions with good reason. After all, you don’t race in and insist on exploratory surgery every time you sprain your ankle (I assume not, you don’t sound like the sort). Because your body knows it’s going to heal, you’re fine to let it be – even with the pain. Your brain’s calibration is actually pretty good. You wouldn’t be making a poor choice if you decided to just let it keep running your alert system as-is.

      The opposite also applies if I’ve got the wrong end of the stick and you’re actually feeling silly for letting doctors push you into surgery you didn’t think was necessary and didn’t want. You’ll want it if you need it, so you’re totally justified in saying “I’d prefer to avoid surgery if at all possible. What are all my options?”. When your brain tells you it’s not worth having to heal surgery wounds in exchange for getting rid of something it’s happy for your body to just deal with for you, again, it’s the one with the insider information.

      I wish you and your brain the best of luck for an uneventful recovery.

    4. Part time lab tech*

      Thanks everyone. My GP and I think the pain is musculoskeletal, related to my body’s tendency to chronically inflame tiny hurts and I don’t need to see a specialist for the growth unless something changes.
      I might book mark this though while I work out how to I want to manage this over the next few months.

  21. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

    I have only my second phone screen/”interview” through around 4 months of (non-continuous) job searching later this week.

    Generally, when I apply for jobs, I delete the “thank you for applying/welcome to our talent network” emails that come directly afterwards and Gmail only keeps emails in the trash for 30 days.

    For this role, I wasn’t able to find any emails relating to the company or job which means I must have applied over a month ago. The job is also no longer listed on the company’s website and Google didn’t turn up anything recent on any big job boards either so I really don’t have access to the job description anymore.

    Since the call will be with a talent acquisition rep at the company I directly applied to- how and when should I mention this in the call?

    1. KDWho*

      From an internal recruiter’s perspective, I would raise the question by email tomorrow, prior to your phone screen. I’d rather get an email from a candidate saying “as I’m preparing for our conversation on Thursday, I see that the job description is no longer available online. Do you mind sending it to me so I can speak to it more effectively when we meet?” than have an unproductive conversation because the candidate is missing relevant context.
      Also, I’ve been in your situation in the past and learned to start keeping a record with screenshots or printouts of all the job ads I applied to. It saved me a few times.
      Break a leg in your phone screen on Thursday!

    2. DJ Abbott*

      When I was job searching, I always copied the job description into an email draft with my cover letter on top. I didn’t send it anywhere of course, it was just for my own records.

  22. Falling Diphthong*

    What are you watching, and would you recommend it?

    Godzilla Minus One was really good. A monster movie, in which a terrifying monster emerges from the deep to destroy everything in its path. And a movie about the current view of life in postwar Japan, found family, and dealing with huge losses.

    Asteroid City was interesting? Play within a play, extremely meta, about the small group of nerds receiving some science awards in the desert when aliens arrive. I felt the human connections (and rooted for the team of “smartest kid in their school” brought together here) even though the story took pains to regularly stop and underscore that these are actors with completely separate lives from this story.

    Finished Season 5 of Justified, definitely the weakest of the series. Looking forward to winding things up with Season 6. Now Raylan has focus, Ava and Boyd have scope to create their own problems. (I gave City Primeval, the sequel, two episodes before rage quitting because the teenage girl had been made so dumb, and I saw a lot of similarities between that season and season 5.)

    1. RussianInTexas*

      I suggest you go watch just the last 20 minutes of the whole City Primeval :).
      Watching: rewatching Buffy.
      For All Mankind
      A Discovery of Witches
      Watched Godzilla Minus One just yesterday, it was rather good!

    2. Teapot Translator*

      I’ve started New Tricks, an old BBC police procedural show. Overall, it’s good. It’s serious and funny.

    3. Jo*

      We are enjoying Ark, a sci-fi series. (3rd season, I think).
      I like Nicole Kidman so will try out The Perfect Couple (Netflix 9/5).
      Waiting for Reacher to start up again (2025). Also Tracker (Oct 13)
      My spouse watches a lot more: Yellowstone and it’s various spinoff series, Cobra Kai, Shogun

      I watch far less TV since streaming has become the norm. It’s just exhausting to try to keep up with what’s on where. (Although I do appreciate the app Just Watch.) We have so many streaming channels. Too many. I kind of miss the days of aimlessly flipping through shows!

    4. GoryDetails*

      Thanks to TCM, I’m watching “Exit Smiling”, a 1926 silent film starring Bea Lillie as a maid who works for a theater troupe and keeps trying to snare acting roles. Eventually she winds up playing the “vamp” role in real life in an attempt to help a man who’s fallen foul of some bad guys, and lots of wackiness ensues. But the laugh-out-loud scene for me involved some lost pearls; she’s in vamp-costume lounging on the sofa trying to hold the attention of the distractee when her string of pearls breaks, dropping the pearls one by one down the front of her dress. They wind up on the floor, and just as I was expecting her or the guy or both to tread on some pearls and fall flat – a big fluffy cat darts in and starts batting the pearls around! A one-scene delight.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      I kind of like those Worst Ever crime shows on Netflix, and they just dropped Worst Ex Ever. I thought the worst roommates show was bad — this one was absolutely harrowing. Definitely trigger warnings for domestic violence and trauma. The reenactments are animated rather than live-action, which does make them slightly less intense.

      Unsolved Mysteries too. I love that show. I wish there were more episodes in a season. The last episode of the latest was about Mothman — it was trying to be scary, but I couldn’t stop giggling. I used to be really into cryptids as a kid. Now I’m much more inclined to look for alternate explanations.

      Also working my way through the last season of Sweet Tooth. The hybrid premise seems a little silly sometimes. Maybe it worked better in the comic books. But I like the characters, so I’ve kept going.

      My Netflix is about to be downgraded to ad tier unless I pay more. Ugh. But it will be a few bucks cheaper. I guess I’m stuck with it until I find work again. I’m so tired of ads in and on everything.

    6. CTT*

      I’m doing a Justified rewatch and I’m dreading season 5 (although I just got to the “Winona stole the money from the evidence lockup” arc and OOF. I had blocked out how frustrating that was).

      My unhinged film opinion last year was that I think Asteroid City was Margot Robbie’s best performance in 2023; I will watch her scene whenever I need to feel verklempt (“And then you take a picture and start crying, and I say ‘I hope it comes.’” And that super-tight closeup on her and then Jason Schwartzman and then the cut to the joke. I just love that scene!)

    7. David Rose*

      Recently watched The Vourdalak (2023). Incredible French folk horror flick that makes FANTASTIC use of practical effects.

    8. DJ Abbott*

      I love a nice light sitcom and I started one called Run the Burbs, from Canada.
      Also, watching 30 Rock for the first time.
      I’ve watched most of the InkMaster shows. Just finishing up InkMaster Angels.
      Watching the current season of MasterChef.
      I watch everything on streaming. I gave up on broadcast 10 years ago.

      1. Bluebell Brenham*

        Love Run the Burbs. I was a big Kims Convenience fan, so it was a delightful surprise to discover the actor who played Kimchi in another series.

    9. cityMouse*

      My current favourite daily show is Chicago Med! It’s my guilty pleasure. I know it’s trash, but it’s reasonably well-written, the actors are pretty good (even the bad ones), the scenarios are over the top and unrealistic (my fave), the characters are great and there’s always someone to root for and against, lol. My doctor thinks it’s quite funny I watch it and reminds me “it’s trash tv!” yes and that’s why I love it. It is a bit gory and I usually ff through the bloody parts. Props loves their blood on this one.

      I am also watching the reboot of All Creatures Great and Small. It’s so well done and beautifully filmed, and acted.

      I love Father Brown, wonderful character sketches.

      I’m watching Foundation which I am finding a bit hard to follow.

    10. goddessoftransitory*

      Godzilla Minus One was fantastic! It’s one I really recommend seeing it on a big screen if possible–the theme is destruction and living despite the unimaginable scale of it, so the bigger the screen the more that comes across.

      Watching Midnight Mass, up to episode 4 and OMG! Was NOT expecting that last scene!

    11. Hypatia*

      We just watched “My Cousin Vinny” with my kids. It’s such a good movie – good timing, lots of fun. we’re trying to introduce our kids to classic movies, though we have to avoid anything too romantic (preteen boys not interested!) one loved it, one couldn’t handle it when Vinny embarrassed himself. I need to go through the movies of my youth and see what they’d like. Red Dawn intrigued them- the more modern version was very slick, but the older version had some support.

    12. Television*

      We just finished re-watching Northern Exposure, and other than Maurice’s snobbery and bigotry aging like milk, I enjoyed re-visiting one of my favorite shows of the 1990s.

      We’re watching Sprung, which follows three people who were released from prison as non-violent offenders at the start of the coronavirus. They move in with one of their moms, who makes them do crimes in order to stay there. I didn’t think I was going to like it, but then one of them goes all Robin Hood. I like it for reasons similar to why I liked My Name is Earl.

      We just finished season one of Land of Women, which I didn’t know if I’d like because it reminded us of Virgin River, which just got too soppy. But we really liked it and we hope there is a season two!

    13. Honoria Lucasta*

      I’m watching Sugar on Apple+. Neo-noir that has just escalated into a mysterious maybe-spy thriller? Not sure where it’s going, but it works for me when Ted Lasso and Severance both didn’t (no shade on them, I know many people love them, they just weren’t for me… and that information might be helpful as you evaluate whether my recommendation suits you)

    14. allathian*

      Hammarskjöld, starring Mikael Persbrandt. A dramatized story of the last few months of the Swedish UN Secretary-General’s life and his attempts to solve the Congo crisis in 1961 before his plane was shot down over Africa by his political opponents. With these fictionalized dramatizations, it’s very difficult to know how much of it really happened and what was invented.

      He left some writings (non-rhyming poetry) that have been published and that give a glimpse into his inner life. But at this point we’ll never know if he really was a closeted gay man who chose his career over personal happiness at a time when gay sexual relations were a crime, or if he simply was very ambitious. My one gripe against the movie was that I felt it focused a bit too much on this, basically unknowable at this point, speculation on his private life.

      I’m very glad that openly gay people at least in some parts of the world are able to have prominent careers, but I’d hate to see a world where every unmarried prominent historical person is assumed to be in the closet.

  23. Falling Diphthong*

    Because I have received such awesome travel advice in the past: Seattle, early October?
    • Off the beaten path things to check out, especially near Montlake and Capitol Hill?
    • Interesting food in that area? (Especially Asian, or at least avoiding the festival of cheese, as one person has a strong dairy allergy.)
    • Outdoorsy things in or close to the city?

    1. TheBunny*

      I’m not sure if it’s really off the beaten path, but there’s a troll under one of the bridges and the world’s tallest cowboy boot. Don’t recall exactly where either are but can easily be Googled.

      We really enjoyed the flight museum when we were there too.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        The Flight Museum is great–the last time my dad visited me we went there (he was a former pilot/big plane guy) and we really enjoyed it.

    2. DuckDuckVictoria*

      I took a duck tour to help me figure out what I wanted to do beyond any normal touristy stuff. It was a fun way to see different parts of the city.

      I spent a bunch of time in Tacoma, especially the museums there (I know you asked about outdoors so this may not appeal).

      The absolute highlight of my 8 day trip was taking a day trip to Victoria, BC by fast ferry. The trip itself was awesome and I spent most of it outdoors looking at the water with the wind in my face (most other passengers stayed inside and didn’t know what they were missing). I loved Victoria and wished I’d spent more time there. I never made it more than a few blocks from the harbor, but I’ve heard Butchart Gardens is amazing if you want to commune with nature, sort of a west coast version of Longwood Gardens.

      I should caveat that it’s been more than a decade since my trip and I don’t know if any of these things still exist as options. If you decide to go to Victoria I’m happy to supply more info about it. I honestly fell in love instantly.

        1. DuckDuckVictoria*

          In that case I recommend any or all of the following (again, older info).

          In Seattle/Tacoma/nearby:

          1. The Museum of Flight
          2. Tacoma Glass Museum
          3. Smith Tower (I did the Space Needle too but this was more fun, and a lot like the Empire State Building)
          4. Seattle Underground Tour
          5. Science Fiction Museum (it used to be next to the Experience Music Project but I think I heard they may have combined? I liked the SF museum much better than the music museum, but your mileage may vary)

          Victoria:

          1. Miniature World
          2. Victoria Bug Zoo

          I looked them up to make sure I got their names correct and the other two Victoria museums I really enjoyed have since closed.

          Hope this helps!

    3. DuckDuckVictoria*

      Also, I should add, I used public transit the entire time I was in Seattle, including to go to Tavoma and other places outside of downtown Seattle. It was one of the easier cities to navigate this way as a tourist/traveler.

    4. Slinky*

      My favorite place in Capitol Hill is Elliott Bay Book Company. It’s a Seattle institution. It used to be located downtown in Pioneer Square but moved to Capitol Hill 15-ish years ago. Great selection in a very open store. It’s a great place to peruse!

      When I lived in Seattle (a good, long time ago now, but I’ve visited since), I used to visit the University Village shopping center often, which is near Montlake. In the years since, it’s become pretty corporate, lots of big retailers, but the last time I was there, I had a great bowl of ramen at Hokkaido Ramen Santouka. Santouka is a chain, but a fairly small one (for some reason, just Washington state plus a couple locations around Boston and one in Virginia). It was very good and (at least five years ago) affordable. Further afield, Wild Ginger in downtown Seattle is another legendary spot. The Fragrant Duck still haunts my dreams.

      For outdoors-related shopping, the REI flagship store is in Seattle. You can find pretty much anything you want there. It’s huge with a super helpful staff. There’s also an indoor climbing wall, if that’s your thing.

      1. Not So Little My*

        Wild Ginger went downhill, unfortunately, even before the Pandemic. Eater is a good website for restaurant recommendations.

    5. Rosyglasses*

      I love Seattle! A note that in October you’ll want to plan for rainy days more frequently than summer.

      Places I love, even as a lifelong visitor;

      – Frye Art Museum (free option and great little cafe)
      – Greenlake Park (huge outdoor area with lots of paths and boat rentals)
      – Pike Place Market (iconic indoor/outdoor market with lots of restaurants. Original Starbucks is there, and Le Panier is the best French bakery. The pier is nearby with a big Ferris wheel and lots of downtown options.
      – I second Elliott Bay Book Company – it’s a great place to browse
      – Alki Beach and Washington Park are cute areas with lots of walking and parks
      – EMP (Experience Music Project) museum is pretty neat and interactive
      – Chihuly glass garden and Space Needle are fairly close to each other
      – on Instagram, @hemleva is based in Seattle and I’ve asked her a few times for Asian restaurant and coffee recommendations- she knows a lot of the small quirky places. @servedbysara does walking videos all over Seattle and likely would have great recommendations for outdoor walks.

      Have a great time!

    6. ronda*

      I liked the whale watching tour. I do like a boat ride :)
      there are whales that live in the sound full-time and they can usually find them.

      1. Agnes Grey*

        I’m a fan of the Argosy cruise that takes you through the Ballard locks. Not cheap, but definitely a unique experience.

    7. Not So Little My*

      You’ll be near the Washington Park Arboretum, which should be lovely around that time. Usually the first two weeks of October are lovely and then the rains and gloom begin in the second half, but they trade back and forth around the middle. Seconding Elliott Bay Bookstore. The Asian Art Museum is awesome.

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My hands down favorite thing to take people to when they visited me in Seattle was the Underground Tour, assuming everyone is moderately mobile and steady on their pins. The Woodland Park Zoo is also quite good, and in October they’ll be handing out pumpkins to some of the critters to play with. Watching a snow leopard carry a pumpkin around in his mouth like a beach ball while he jumped up and down the rocks was pretty impressive. :)

    9. goddessoftransitory*

      Ahhh, my wheelhouse!

      Today’s Seattle Times has a great article on the Howe Street Stairs, the longest outdoor staircase in Seattle. If you’re looking for outdoorsy yet urban, something like that might be for you.

      The Seattle Aquarium has just opened its newest building showcasing tropical species, especially leopard sharks. The whole waterfront is a great time but it is touristy–expect crowds even in October. The same for the International District.

      On Capitol Hill itself you definitely want to hit Elliott Bay Books, and there are several restaurants in its immediate vicinity; Little Oddfellows is very popular.

      I do have to recommend avoiding Third Avenue in downtown Seattle proper–it unfortunately is very unsafe due to rampant drug use.

    10. Television*

      Next time I’m in Seattle I want to go the Fantagraphics Bookstore and Gallery. I loved reading Love and Rockets back in my college days.

    11. ElizaC*

      We love the Seattle Art Museum and the Asian Art Museum! Pike Place Market downtown is wonderful – Matts in the Market (we do lunch there because dinners can be expensive) and le Pitchet (check their menu because it might be too cheesy). Evening cocktails at Zig Zag Cafe. Amazing Japanese noodles in Fremont at Kamonegi. Love the onigiri we’ve gotten from Onibaba in the ID. Cake = Deep Sea Sugar and Salt in Georgetown, Cookies = Low rider cookie and amazing pastries=Temple Pastry (both in the central district)!

    12. Strive to Excel*

      A lot of other recommendations have happened but: there’s a big Asian supermarket called Uwajimaya. It’s got an attached food court and manga/book store, and it’s the epicentre for the local concentration of Asian food and other stores. I strongly recommend it! Public transit should get you pretty close.

  24. Boggle*

    I took an extra-long weekend, 6 days in all, due to the stressors at work. A new hire joined us recently, someone I did not think was a good fit from their interview, and I was right. I have spoken to two others on the team who selected this new hire, and now they both think they are a bad fit (which I told them!). I also told them I will not be going to our manager (who doesn’t manage, which is another story), but that they needed to get together and present the issues. I am retiring in 4 months, and I want out of all of this. I have spent time training this new hire, putting in a lot of time so am very frustrated to have been put into a position where it was all for nothing. Bottom line, if they keep this new hire, I will continue to help them, but have absolutely no skin in the game, the rest of the team needs to make a decision if this is who they want working with them. Issues with the new hire; they come in late every day, when asked to do tutorials in their cubicle, they are constantly texting, barely acknowledges anyone and this is a customer-facing role, basically uses their long hair as a curtain to cover their face. Our manager had mentioned to the team their references said they were shy, but this seems to be more than that. When doing one on one training, they are constantly yawning, does not ask any questions, and has been texting while I’m speaking to them. At this point in my career, I wanted to kick back a bit, and get things in order before I left, not train someone in technical and soft skills as well as basic business norms. While they are young, they’ve worked in other companies, and I feel they should know better. Since I have been out, I have no idea if anything has transpired with my two teammates going to our manager about the situation, but I’m washing my hands of it. As for our manager, they are completely hands off, when asked a question about *anything* their canned response is “You are all adults, and I trust you to make the right decision.” Unfortunately, we are not all the same level of adult, so I have been the one to step in, and our manager knows it. Decision-fatigue is real, so now I’m going to be the one pushing back.

    1. Pippa*

      Work your original 4 month plan. Get things in order before you retire – document procedures (or update existing doucuments); document key contacts (internal at other departments and external partners and vendors); doucment onboarding, training and offboarding procedures; clean up your personal email, shared drive folders, make sure you have your own copies of your personal personnel information since you won’t have access after you retire and once you give notice, your access may be limited (I wasn’t able to download after giving notice) or you may be so bombarded with work that something personal gets forgotten.
      If your manager is so hands off, your peers will appreciate the documentation more in the future than any time you spend with a single individual colleague – especially one which is unlikely to work out long term anyway. Four months is really not enough time to make a real difference in turning around an underperformer by your sheer will. But man, it is so, so long to be messed around by someone riding out the PIP cycle to eventual termination. I’d nope out of that circus with everything in my retirement-focused power.

      1. Observer*

        I totally agree with all of this.

        Spend your time on wrap up, clean up, and hand over. If you have any additional time for training that’s good. If not, don’t worry about it. Do document what you have seen and pass it on. Otherwise, not your circus and not your monkeys.

      2. Boggle*

        Appreciate your post! As with anything I can plan all I want, but still take one day at a time.

        Going to focus on my exit strategy and let the chips fall where they may.

      3. goddessoftransitory*

        I agree: base your decisions on the presumption that nothing about this situation is going to change, and don’t invest any more energy in it.

    2. Observer*

      I agree with @Pippa.

      Two other comments.

      Firstly, document anything you see and observe and send that to both one coworker and you manager. That does your coworkers that favor of not letting your manager claim that “didn’t know” and that “no one told them” about the problems, with minimal effort on your part.

      Secondly, if you have any further conversations with your colleagues about this, skip “I told you so”. It’s not helpful and it won’t even really make you feel any better.

      But fundamentally, this is not your problem. Stick to your original plans, rather than spending time and effort on this person who is not working out.

      Although I wonder if this person simply does not want to be there for some reason. Many years ago we hired someone who totally did not work out. A lot of the behavior was similar (although it was not a customer facing job.) They wound up leaving before they could get fired. It turns out that they had been pressured into taking that job by their family, and they just refused to make an effort to make the job work. They were never openly insubordinate, but training them was impossible. They wouldn’t schedule anything, and when people scheduled for them and sat down to train them they would just sit like a bump on a log. To most of us who had to deal with it, the most frustrating part was that they then told the family members who had pressured them that “no one trained me” blah, blah, blah. I heard about that because a family friend who also worked for us had heard about this and complained to me about how “unfairly” this person was treated. Well, I gave them an earful….

      Again, that’s not your problem at all. But it could explain why the other team got blindsided.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I did training as a big part of my job for a while (currently not hiring in my area so not so much anymore) and MAN, it is stressful and exhausting even when the person is listening and trying! Trying to get through to someone who refuses to engage or worse, will not look up from their cursed phone while I’m explaining something would give me headaches that lasted days.

      2. Boggle*

        I did not tell my coworkers anything except about my experience with the new hire, nothing of which was positive. They agreed with me as they had seen similar issues. All I want is for them to provide an update to our manager, I will no longer take the lead on any issues. They need to start stepping up because I won’t be here to do that.

        1. Boggle*

          Ah, I did write I told them my feelings about the new hire, but that was actually after their interview. I came into the training with an open mind that has now been shut. There was definitely no “I told you so, moment.”, they just saw something in the new hire I did not, but it’s not turned out the way they hoped.

        2. Observer**

          That sounds just right, Goldilocks style :)

          You’ve done rally everything you could. This really isn’t your problem anymore. Which must be HUGE relief. Trying to train someone who just won’t pay attention is hideous.

    3. Morning Reader*

      No advice about the larger problem, but, texting at work while someone is talking to you, or training you? That is just beyond the pale. Is it impossible to just say “put the damn phone away while I’m talking to you. You are here to work, not chat with your friends.” Socially, it’s rude, but at work? How is this person not fired?

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        It is SO rude, but I have found that even the most engaged younger workers (YOU KID GET OFF MY LAWN) nowadays just expect to have their phone constantly accessible–when you tell them “No phones” they look at you like you asked them to detach their arms. They aren’t being deliberately offensive most of the time.

        But man, can you imagine if a trainer spent the whole time staring at their phone when they were supposed to be onboarding an new employee???

        1. Observer**

          There is a huge difference between “no phones” and “Please pay attention and don’t text while we are doing this” (this being training or whatever else.) I work with plenty of young people and they are perfectly capable of managing that.

  25. Garbage Receptacle Conflagration*

    I do a niche job, in a niche industry. I love the work, and the company I work for is the most stable of its type in the area. It has its problems, of course, but the people are generally great. I’ve done several jobs in this company, and am known and trusted across departments.

    …… Which is probably at least part of how I ended up supervising the Big Boss’ son. I have done it for almost two years now, I do not like it, I do not want to do it anymore.

    He isn’t the usual “lazy, mean, doesn’t try” flavor that I hear about. He’s genuinely nice, he tries to do a good job, he’s just…. bad at it. Despite my repeated coaching, despite some parts of this being common sense (and getting repeated coaching), he just is not good at this job. He makes the same mistakes over and over, he tells people what he thinks they want to hear instead of the truth, making further guidance hard to give him, and thus far, at least, there are no actual consequences.

    In most cases, I believe I have enough clout and value to say “okay, this isn’t working like this, and I’m trying to leave about it” and something would happen. (Just at the “perusing job boards” stage right now, but…) However, I’m not sure any of that applies when this guy’s last name is literally part of the company name.

    Is there something I should try? Should I just leave and make him someone else’s responsibility and wish them luck? I’m pretty upset about this, I’ll almost definitely have to leave the industry I love if I leave this company, and I don’t think I’ve been put in a fair position at all.

    1. Not A Manager*

      Would they fire you if you pushed back? It sounds like you’re valuable to the company. Probably other people know how incompetent this guy is. If you’re not at risk of being fired, can you talk to someone higher than you (but ideally without his same last name), and just say that you’ve been managing him for two years and now it’s time for someone else to do it? You can give vague reasons like “my other duties make it difficult to effectively manage him,” “it would be more efficient for him to be in x department,” etc.

    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      I’d talk to my boss/mentor and try to see what they recommend.

      Maybe they’ll tell you to push back and tell the boss that his son can’t do the work. Maybe they’ll tell you to give the big boss’s son busywork so that he can pretend to be working when he really isn’t. Maybe they’ll help you get him transfered elsewhere.

    3. Generic Name*

      In my experience, a Big Boss will never choose an employee they aren’t related to over their child. Instead of deciding that your only two choices are manage Nepo Baby or leave the industry forever, what about applying to those postings you’ve been browsing? I know you say that your current workplace is the best in the industry, but unless you’ve literally worked at every other employer in your industry in your area, I suggest applying to those other companies just to see what’s out there.

    4. Morning Reader*

      I hesitate to suggest this, but I have seen this work in similar situations before. Could you encourage him to apply for some other job in your company? Recommend him to some other department that he might be better suited for, or that you could convince some other manager he would be? Might be in the way of “coaching” him; if he’s working in the family business, wouldn’t he want to get experience in all the areas? He might be in charge of the whole company someday* so he should get experience in all the areas. Two years in your department: it wouldn’t be too far from the truth to say he’s learned all he can there and he should move on. You might even be able to say that convincingly to the Big Boss.
      Try to make him someone else’s problem. Who knows, maybe there actually is a position he’d be a better fit for.
      *definitely leave before this happens.

    5. DJ Abbott*

      I was just reading about this type of person in reference to our department manager, who is like a puppy. All about love and attention.
      The book I have calls this type super-agreeable. These are people who have such a great need for love and friendship and affirmation, they can’t bear to risk rejection or disapproval. One of the things they do is say what they think people want to hear instead of what’s actually happening.
      The book says the key is to reassure the person that if they’re honest, they will not lose your approval. So maybe if you could find a way to reassure him you will still approve of him if he tells you the truth, that would help.

    6. Super Niche*

      Is it possible for someone else to supervise him? Not in “wash my hands of him” but in a legitimate Fergus has a much different style and you may do better with him.

      I also work in a super niche industry that requires internal training. We have 5 dedicated trainers and most can train anyone. But we have 2 that have very distinct styles that appeal to certain folks and not others. In my mind, I call one a kindergarten teacher because he is always giving positive feedback, even when someone screws up. He drives me batty, but some folks respond very well to him.

  26. National Parker*

    Is it a bad idea to go to Yellowstone national park around Christmas time? Has anyone done that, or does anyone live in the area? It seems that the park is not closed but will we miss out on many aspects? Thanks for any information!

    1. National Parker*

      Our second choice would be “spring” break, around the end of March, which I realize is still probably winter at Yellowstone. We are trying to work around kid’s school and can’t make the trip during the summer.

    3. Shutterdoula*

      I’ve done a winter trip to Yellowstone, as well as at least a dozen summer/fall trips.
      Some things you need to know about going in winter:
      The park is open, but the roads are not open to private vehicles. You must be in a guided tour either by snow coach or by snowmobile. (or have a permit) The roads are groomed snow, not plowed. There are usually several weeks in the spring and fall between winter groomed roads and summer clear roads when the park is closed. This may or may not be around your spring break timing.
      Most hotels in the park, and some outside the park, are closed for the season. Few restaurants are open.
      It’s COLD. I wore insulated boots, flannel lined leggings, insulated overalls, shirt, fleece, down jacket, hat, scarf and gloves and it was still uncomfortably cold some days. Particularly the one day that our snowcoach crashed in a ditch and we were stranded for about 3 hours.
      It’s incredibly beautiful in winter, but different than summer. For example, the colors of Grand Prismatic are muted and not as vivid in winter.
      It’s a lot less crowded and a lot more limited.
      It’s totally worth it to see the park in a very different way.
      (My favorite time to visit the park is mid to late September, btw)

    4. the Viking Diva*

      You need to review the national parks website for Yellowstone. Most of the park is closed between late October and mid to late April. Remember, it is high in altitude as well as fairly far north– winter is serious business up there. You can do snow coach tours, privately operated and originating outside the park. They probably start as early as Christmas time, but the snow base may not be reliable by then. My neighbors often go in February to ski and snowshoe, taking a snow coach to the big lodge as a home base. The trails and boardwalks around the old Faithful geyser basin are open and it would be interesting to see geysers in the snow. Late March sounds iffy to me – there might be years when the snow is still good, but I’m not sure the operators would count on that and schedule trips that late.

    5. Girasol*

      The roads into the park are closed (impassable) but you can sign up for a snow coach (an arctic school bus) to take you in to the main lodge, or at least you could when I was there last. They have accommodations and a restaurant there all winter. You’ll need to get reservations for the snow coach and the hotel. People who go take cross country skis to explore the area, or some reserve space in guide-led snowmobile rides. There may be snowmobile day tours out of the town of West Yellowstone but I’m not sure about that. You’ll miss some stuff that you’d see in summer but if you go in summer you’ll miss out on geysers that look twice as big because of the steam in cold air, and way more wildlife hanging around the hot springs on the warm earth in plain view. (The bison look so tame and sleepy. Do not be fooled. They’re dangerous.) The boardwalks in several geyser basins are generally snow free because of the heat from the springs, so you can look at all the hot springs just as well as in summer. The crowd is much smaller in winter, of course. You have to be okay with touring around in the snow in weather that might get below zero, but if you’re willing, Yellowstone is really spectacular in winter. I’m glad I’ve had the chance to go there.

  27. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

    What should I say in a phone interview with a talent acquisition rep if I don’t have a copy of the job description because it’s no longer posted online anywhere (i.e.; I applied for the job over a month ago)?

    This will be only my second phone screen/”interview” through just over 4 months of (non-continuous) job searching.

    Generally, when I apply for jobs, I delete the “thank you for applying/welcome to our talent network” emails that come directly afterwards and Gmail only keeps emails in the trash for 30 days. For this role, I wasn’t able to find any emails relating to the company or job. The job is also not listed on the company’s website anymore and Google didn’t turn up anything recent on any big job boards either so I really don’t have access to the job description.

    1. Garden Pidgeons*

      I think it would be perfectly fine to say “can you send through the job description – I think it’s been taken down from the website?”, either in that initial call or by email ahead of it. In cases where they’re actively recruiting people rather than responding to applications it will be the norm and they’ll be used to it.

  28. Irish Teacher.*

    College offers in Ireland came out last Friday (yes, for the college year starting this month; doesn’t give much time to secure accommodation!), so just wondering what people did at college/uni/apprenticeships, etc and if your current job uses the qualifications you got.

    I actually wanted to do primary teaching but missed the points by 20 points (out of 600!) I got 445 and 465 were required. So I did an Arts/Humanities degree in English and History (I also took Irish and Philosophy in my 1st year) and am now…well, primarily a resource teacher, but my qualification is in English and History. I also teach the Philosophy short course which didn’t exist when I did my degree and I actually took Philosophy for the year thinking it would be no practical use to me but since we only take two subjects to degree level and I was deciding between English and Irish for the second, I thought I’d make my fourth subject one that was just out of interest. But it ended up being more use than I expected!

    1. Feeling Feline*

      I want to be an illustrator. Let’s just say I’m so ashamed of what I became instead I can’t even talk about it.

    2. Nebula*

      My undergrad was English Lit, and I have to say, the most relevance it has to my current career (beyond the basics on communications skills etc you get from most humanities degrees) is that it planted the seeds for me eventually doing a Masters in Linguistics a few years ago. Studying Linguistics developed my data analysis skills, and I am now a Data Analyst – and as it happens, I work at the uni I did my Masters at, and deal directly with some of the people who taught me!

    3. londonedit*

      I studied English Language & Literature at uni (BA) and I work in book publishing, so I’m one of those rare people who’s actually using their English degree! Not that an English degree is a requirement for publishing jobs, not at all in fact, but it is at least linked to what I do now.

    4. Lemondrops*

      I went into math for my advanced degrees. I use some statistical modeling and analysis now but overall no direct impact on my IT job. I think it demonstrates improves that I’m an analytic thinker which is helpful in my job

    5. Anon for this one*

      I am an optometrist. I practiced for 10 years and then became a SAHM. Spouse was in the Air Force so moving around wasn’t conducive to practice – reciprocity wasn’t good for that field and the prospect of taking new exams was daunting. At some point one of the states in which I originally licensed and maintained my license changed some of their requirements and I would have had to take a two-week onsite course 1000 miles from home with two little kids. So I didn’t renew that license (and we haven’t been back to that state, anyway!). Some of my education (training for and working with kids with visual disabilities) was helpful when I was on school boards a couple of places. Anyway, I’m a firm believer that no education is ever wasted, so there’s that.

    6. Nightengale*

      I majored in molecular biology

      I taught biology for 5 years in a residential school for kids with behavioral and learning disabilities. Even though I was a biology teacher, most of what I taught was not related to what I had studied in school. I also didn’t have an education degree but had read a lot about education on my own since getting a job teaching in a summer program when I was still in high school.

      I’m now a pediatrician caring for kids with developmental disabilities. I use my genetics classes a bit. I don’t use most of my other biology or other
      required science classes much. Occasionally something will come up, such as a chemistry concept explaining the difference between two different medications. Although I don’t think I needed to take 2 years chemistry to understand that concept while prescribing. . . I have not used my required physics class one tiny little bit. I do use what I learned in evaluating a research paper.

      What is more relevant to my current work are the anthropology, linguistics and disability law classes I took for distribution credits outside my major.

      1. Feeling Feline*

        I did molecular biology prior to the existence of CRISPR. I think I’m more suited for archeological now.

    7. dapfloodle*

      I do the exact job that my Masters degree is in, which is a specialization of the field that my Bachelors is in, so yes!

      1. Nightengale*

        I’m in a medical field that draws heavily on psychology and. . . I never took any undergrad psychology classes. It counted as a lab science at my school and I was already majoring in a lab science so it didn’t fit the space time continuum. I did get ahold of the 101 text and read that. And there was a lot of psychology training in my subspecialty fellowship.

        But I feel very strongly a social science should be a mandatory prereq instead of physics. . . .

    9. goddessoftransitory*

      Heh, I majored in theater and ended up in food service (taking orders) so I’m living the cliche’.

    10. Katie Impact*

      Undergrad in biology; realized I wasn’t cut out for either lab work or academia; Masters in communications; flailed around for a few years as I realized just how hard it is to find work in that field; eventually landed a position in software publishing, basically doing various things to get video games into releasable condition. I work with small publishers on niche titles, so wearing multiple hats and getting random tasks thrown my way is the norm.

      I’d say that nothing I do from day to day strictly *needs* anything I learned at university, but it it does *use* what I learned. General science knowledge is useful surprisingly often when editing fiction writing (most of the stuff I work on is text-heavy), and a communications background comes in handy when I occasionally get called upon to whip up marketing materials or the like.

    11. allathian*

      Not much. I have a business degree and I’m a largely self-taught translator. I took a certification in “legalese” to improve my skills in translating contracts, and that’s it. I took a lot of extra classes in languages, so that partly helped. But basically anyone who has demonstrable skills in the field can be a translator, it’s not a licensed field like medicine or law.

      I work for a governmental agency in a bilingual country.

  29. anon for this*

    I have a question for the chemists/lab pros out there.
    Say there are fibers or filaments of unknown composition. They could be made of keratin or collagen, or plant origin like cotton, or man-made like polyester.
    Is there an easily available and not dangerous substance that could differentiate the keratin/collagen from the others? A liquid that would stain one and not the other?
    Thanks in advance for your knowledge.

    1. anxiousGrad*

      There are stains like Coomassie blue or the BCA assay to label proteins. This wouldn’t tell you what kind of protein it is, but if it is a protein (as opposed to a polymer like polyester). There’s also an iodine assay that labels polyethylene glycol. I think ResearchGate would be a better forum for this question, though.

      1. anon for this*

        Thank you for your answer. I will look into your options for testing!
        As for ResearchGate, I cannot create an account there to pose a question because I am not in the field. I can only browse.

    2. Not That Kind of Doctor*

      Depending on how much you’ve got, people traditionally do burn tests for fabric samples of unknown composition — cellulose burns clean, protein stinks like burnt hair, and most synthetics melt.

      1. anon for this*

        Thank you! I will consider this but I don’t know if destruction of the sample is the way to go here.

          1. anon for this*

            The problem with that is not being able to document the answer. “It smelled when I burned it” is not proof the way a photo of a visible reaction would be.

    3. Generic Name*

      There is, but I cannot recall the name of it. We used it in biology lab in the late 90s. Maybe searching Carolina Scientific or some other company that sells kits for school lab classes?

    4. HannahS*

      You could look into natural dyes.

      Typically they will react differently with protein vs. cellulose fibres, and will not work at all with synthetics. There may be some at the extreme end that would stick to only one of the three, so by running each sample through two fluids, you could differentiate.

    5. Isashani*

      ask chatgpt and google each solution they give you. This should steer you towards useful (verified) sources.
      you could phrase the prompt as “have two experts introduce themselves and explain how they would go about differentiating …”.

  30. Nebula*

    Oh God, I read the linked post with the ‘stay gold’ intern, and there’s a question there about a company banning travel to Asia because of ‘the coronavirus situation’ – the post is from late Feb 2020 – first comment ‘For letter 4, [you’re going to Japan in] next March as in March 2021? I really hope the coronavirus situation improves by then.’ Aaaaaaarrrrggggghhhhh.

    1. Elle*

      I was a reading a cruise review from Jan 2020 and it mentions at the end that a lot of people on the ship seemed to be sick with a nasty respiratory virus. I cringed.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I recentlyish read through old posts from here and there was one from…January or February 2020 where a number of people are talking in the comments about this odd virus that seems like a flu but the doctor says it isn’t and he/she doesn’t know what it is.

        1. Frozen Grated Lemon Zest*

          Someone I know through gym connections – his brother died of a respiratory illness in late January 2021. Tested negative for flu and pneumonia, this was before anyone was being tested for COVID in the US, but in retrospect they believe he did die of COVID.

    2. ampersand*

      It’s so interesting looking back on early 2020 situations/comments/conversations/etc with the knowledge we have now! I have some family photos taken in late 2019, and every so often when I see them I think: if only we’d known what was coming! We were blissfully unaware back then.

      1. California Dreamin’*

        I have some pictures from February 2020 when one of my kids was in their junior high play. The kids are all standing up on the stage holding hands for their final bows. I remember that night and I had no concerns yet at all. I think it was in the next week or two that several of us moms decided to have our kids stop riding the city bus home, which they did together a couple times a week, and to pick them up directly from school “as a precaution.” It all happened so fast.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          Yeah, Ireland went from debating whether or not we should call off the St. Patrick’s day parades and so on or if that would be overkill to pretty much complete shutdown in a matter of weeks.

  31. academic fashion*

    A few days back, we had a question about playing music on the all-building sound system, and folks recommended that OP get noise-cancelling headphones to listen to their own music.

    I am curious what kind of noise cancelling headphones would eliminate that sort of up-close ambient, variable (e.g. not a consistent noise, like a plane engine) sound. I’ve used NC headphones (Sony’s entry-level brand, about $70) for a few years now, and they’re generally great about cancelling more distant noises, e.g. convos in the other room, but I could definitely hear music/convos in the room with me and if I tried to play my own music, the result would be a confusing mess.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I snagged some Bose Quiet Comfort headphones on Amazon Prime Day (full disclosure: at regular price I could never have bought them). But they are miles better than the old Sony NC ‘phones I used to have. They fit snugly over my whole ear so they physically block out quite a lot of noise even if the NC function is not turned on.

      I know this is not a practical suggestion for a lot of people, however, and Prime Day is over now. But they could have upcoming sales.

      1. Reba*

        I highly recommend these! my spouse canNOT get my attention when I’m using them at home, lol. They have NC mode and “aware” mode for when you need to let surrounding sounds through. They do go on sale from time to time and Bose also sells refurbished.

      2. ThatOtherClare*

        I tried some Bose QC headphones the other day and they were excellent.

        But the single most important factor is fit. I have a small head and they didn’t work until I lifted and pushed them to my head slightly. Then I got total isolation – better than my similarly priced B&W headphones (also too big, but I compared with the same technique). Before doing that, the sound was leaking in behind my jaw and the sound cancelling was meh.

        If you have a medium-large head this won’t be a problem whatsoever, but if you have a small head don’t buy anything you haven’t tried on or you’re likely to be disappointed.

    2. Generic Name*

      Air pods have very good noise cancelling. I recall putting them in for the first time in an open office and being surprised at the instant silence. They eliminate all background noise. I had to turn off the feature, however, because I got dizzy and headaches after about an hour or so. Apparently my vestibular system very much relies on ambient noise.

      1. 1 Non Blonde*

        Second this. The first time I used them was on an airplane and I literally thought the engines stopped because it was SO quiet!

      2. Filosofickle*

        I’ve read that noise cancelling does mess with some people’s heads — meaning it may not be that you need ambient noise, but that the sounds/vibrations/whatever put out by the NC are the problem. My experience is a little different — my 1st Gen Airpods don’t have noise cancelling but they do make me sick and dizzy anyway so it has to be something other than NC. (Those were a waste of money.) I can wear anything wired, it’s only the wireless stuff that gets me!

    3. Coffee Snob/Knob*

      I use the Sony’s high-end option, the WH-1000XM5, (those are a mouthful), and they are excellent for me. I would also recommend the Bose QCs as suggested by Elizabeth West. I find the Bose to be good enough, but when I tried them, the Sony’s just fit better.

      I suggest getting those with bigger ear cups for complete sound isolation, and changing the earpads to a 3rd party OEM for better noise isolation (if money is not an issue). Also, Black Friday is coming up!

  32. Justin*

    In a very wait and see time. My book (“Embracing the Exceptions: Meeting the needs of Neurodivergent Students of Color”) came out last week. Exciting! Except all that means is it shipped Thursday, so people aren’t really going to receive it until this week, and then however long it takes people to read it, etc. So I’m just waiting anxiously for reactions.

    I’m also in the final hiring stages for a job at work and there are two panels tomorrow and Weds that my colleagues are leading and I’m really hoping one or both really goes well so this whole thing can be resolved well and very soon.

    So, it’s all exciting, mostly good, but especially with the long weekend there’s a lot less to distract myself with while I wait.

    3. goddessoftransitory*

      Have you read Anne Lamott’s Bird by Bird? In it she talks about how she and a friend both had publishing dates on the same day and were waiting around for adulation from friends and reviews and by the end of the day “we both had to be sedated.”

  33. Grits McGee*

    Has anyone had success asking friends to make plans? I am the inviter/planner of my friend group- if I don’t make the plans, then meetups don’t happen whether it’s a day trip or meeting in our work cafeteria for lunch. But I’m burnt out af for a variety of reasons, and just would really love to be the invitee.

    I don’t know how to ask people to make plans (even just sitting in the park and reading!), and there’s also a buried fear of being the “needy” friend that alienates her friends by asking for too much. Another complicating factor is that most of these friends have small kids, or spouses, or family nearby that tend to take up their time.

    1. RussianInTexas*

      In my experience, it doesn’t work. Dropping planning also doesn’t work.
      Non-planners will make agreeable noises and continue to be non -planners.

      1. ExasperatingButTrue*

        Yep, and when I’d try to get people to pick dates for next time when we’re all together they brush it off bug then I had to nag, nag, nag online until eventually something would be set up.

        When folks tried to resume getting together after a pandemic break I refrained from planning since I knew I couldn’t be social yet and I watched them make halfhearted efforts to schedule that died three times.

    2. Texan In Exile*

      Nope. A friend thanked me for being The Inviter. She said she always has good intentions about initiating things, but then never does.

      Last year, when we all met for a weekend (the third time I have arranged such an event), two other friends told me that they are so glad that I do the work to keep the friendship going. They have kids and full-time jobs and are a lot busier than I am.

      I used to think I might be annoying my friends by always being the one to initiate activities, but now I don’t worry about it. Some of us are Inviters, some of us are Invited. It would be nice to be Invited sometimes, but at this point in my life and in my friends’ lives, this is where we are.

      1. Maggie*

        Love this perspective! I’m definitely more of an inviter and people genuinely thank me for it often! Sometimes the person with 2 kids and a full time job can’t plan much, but they still want to come if they can fit it in.

      2. Grits McGee*

        I feel you about worrying your annoying friends- I had friends in grad school that would say “yes” to invites from people they actively disliked, then badmouth those people immediately afterwards, and it’s always made me paranoid. You start to feel insecure when there’s zero reciprocation, even with something as casual as “do you want to meet up this weekend?”.

      3. goddessoftransitory*

        Hell, neither my work friends nor I have kids, even, and it’s taken over two damn months to set up one dinner date–we live about one block away from each other, it could only be easier, in theory, to get together if we had an actual fairy godmother poofing us to each other’s houses. But life just kept kicking that can.

    3. Maggie*

      I backed off planning with some folks but continued planning with the smaller group that reciprocated. To my surprise, one of the non planners invited me for something next weekend! So my advice would be to continue inviting people who reciprocate even if it’s not 50/50 (no relationship is ever going to be 50/50 all the time especially if people have tons of responsibility) and ease off planning with people who don’t. Occasionally I’ll invite people to do something I know I’m okay doing by myself or just with my husband, and then anyone who is free is just gravy on top.

      1. anonymous anteater*

        This is something I’ve done as well. Make plans to meet up with one friend, then shoot a message to the bigger group with set time and location, and maybe a few others show up.

        But I get the frustration, and I have not found a way to activate non-planners! I wonder if non-planners could chime in here and convey what is holding them back, or what would help, or if they are ok just not meeting.

        1. Bitte Meddler*

          I’m mostly a non-planner. It’s because I have so much on my plate and my nose is to the grindstone constantly (full-time work, caregiver to an elderly parent, household and pet management). Plus I have some health conditions that need managing.

          Between all of that, I’ll occasionally look up and realize that six months have gone by without me doing anything “fun”.

          I am deeply grateful for the friends who break into my grey jail cell of a life every now and then and invite me to do things with them.

        2. Ellis Bell*

          It really seems like there should be an app for this. My FOO have all been released from the task of Christmas shopping by using a Secret Santa app that asks us to choose our own gifts, and it’s been very successful because no more hinting at what we like or guessing what people want. The app could ask people to choose their theoretically favourite activities, restaurants and locations. Then the app could suggest get-togethers and people could either mass accept or choose to put it forward to the others.

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          I have found that some (not all) non planners are very, very worried about seeming “pushy” by being the one to suggest stuff–basically the LW but in reverse?

        4. Chossy*

          I used to be reliant on friends to make plans. The covid-19 pandemic changed that. Before, I wouldn’t think to plan socialization into my free time (I already interacted with people all day at school/work!) but I usually wouldn’t turn down a direct invitation. Once a novel coronavirus was spreading, and I had more concern about getting and spreading Covid than most folks, I realized, if I wanted to get together in a relatively safe way, I’d have to plan it myself! So I now organize hikes and beer garden meetups and coffee at outdoor cafes and picnics and baseball games, etc. Not everyone wants to be outdoors, in any weather, so for those whose invites to large indoor gatherings during virus surges I have persisently turned down, I’ve realized I need to follow up later, in a season when virus levels are low, with a smaller-scale invitation or two myself, to say, “I still value your friendship and want to be around you!”

      2. Grits McGee*

        Unfortunately if I only invite people who reciprocate, there will be no invites at all :( Other than group invites for kids’ birthday parties, I have been the inviter for every friend interaction I’ve had for the past couple years. At this point, I would consider reciprocation just responding to the invite period, or not canceling at the last minute.

        The long term goal is to make more friends, but it’s slow going…

        1. Ellis Bell*

          I would like to get together more with my parent friends and the only way I’ve found of making it possible is to find something that either magically includes kids, or is a special occasion that everyone wants to celebrate together, but not necessarily with other people (so like Halloween over Christmas and May Day over Mother’s Day). They don’t really have the bandwidth to figure out the special occasion stuff, so I get invited to the kids birthdays, christenings and communions and I figure out the Halloween party. I’m not sure why the kid party invites aren’t counting for you, that’s interesting I think.

          1. Grits McGee*

            Oh, I don’t want to sound ungrateful! It’s just that the invites are kind of dragnets (everyone in the Gmail contact list, basically) and tend to be very little kid-focused. I’m usually the only single, childless person there. I find the parties more exhausting than enjoyable, but it’s a low effort way to maintain connections with folks that otherwise are difficult to get time with.

    4. Ginger Cat Lady*

      As a burned out planner friend, nothing irritates me more than non-planner friends whining about feeling excluded because I’m not planning anything for them. Sorry, but I need a break, and if you want to do something, plan something!

    5. GoryDetails*

      Heh! I’ve become one of the designated planners for a certain subgroup of friends – though others are also proactive at making invitations. Sometimes it’s a simple “I’m going to thus-and-such a thing at date/time, anyone want to meet me there?” (I am happy to go places by myself, so if I really want to Do A Thing it’s easy to just do it – but if I think friends would like it I can kick them an email or text in the “just FYI” mode.)

      If it’s a more elaborate thing (there are lots of foodies in the group so we do like to hit up interesting places and/or unusual fixed menus), it takes more effort due to reservation timing and requirements; I generally post the thing with a request for interest and preferred days/times, and an end-time – “will make the reservations for anyone I’ve heard from before Friday at 3,” that kind of thing.

      If it makes a difference, my friends in the “could you please arrange things” group are always very appreciative. And all of us miss some dear departed friends who, back in the day, were themselves the Arrangers…

    6. The OG Sleepless*

      Ughh, this is a long standing etiquette peeve of mine. When I was a kid, my parents seemed to socialize with people who all had a lot of give and take with entertaining and plans. I regularly overheard my mom say to my dad, “We really owe so-and-so an invitation. They’ve had us over three times now.” So when I grew up and had some social circles going, I had people over, or organized get togethers, and…nothing. I’d have them over again. Everybody would come and seem to have a great time. And…still nothing. And so, next thing I knew, I was the entertainer and social organizer. OK, fine, but social organizing is secretly really stressful for me. I can hardly bear the stress of reaching out and waiting to see if people can hang out, and wondering if they want to. I’ve tried gently saying “hey, give me a shout when you want to do something!” to various people or groups, and…nothing.

    7. HannahS*

      I’ve had success saying to a close friend, “I really want to see you and [other friend] but I dont have the bandwidth to plan. Could you?”

    8. Sloanicota*

      You may have better luck if you ask directly and give them some guidelines. If they mention a movie they might want to see (or whatever), you can say “I’d love to see that, but I’m way over my bandwidth for planning. If you want to go, send me a few times.” If they don’t take the bait, NBD, but that’s at least a reasonable place to start. Most of the “planners” in my acquaintance are much fussier than I am about plans; they like things Their Way, so they make the plan and my job is to be agreeable (and I am good at my job!). TBH they may *think* they want me to plan more for them, but in reality, they don’t enjoy being the go-along-agreeable one.

    9. ThatOtherClare*

      I am the non-planner friend.

      I get around it by scheduling all my differnet meet-ups with different people at regular intervals into my calendar. Weekly, monthly, the first weekend of spring each year, the intervals can be whatever and the activity is always the same (per friend), but it takes the cognitive load off my planner friends and I don’t have to remember to do anything other than show up to/host the coffee or board games or whatever. I’ll never think to plan spontaneous stuff, it just won’t happen, but this compromise keeps me in touch with people at whatever frequency suits us both. And sometimes I actually do think to mix it up a bit and make a suggestion to do a movie or something instead. Rarely, but it does happen! If you value the interactions enough to keep them going and you’re just running out of planning juices a schedule might be the way to go. Nobody’s ever been offended, they’re always flattered when I suggest regular meet ups. You might not be able to convert your friends to being like me, but if you want to do it for yourself it might reduce your meet-up planning load to something a non-planner like me can handle.

    10. allathian*

      I was the last one in my closest friend group to get married. When I was single, I was often the organizer for the events I attended because my friends all started their careers earlier than I did, even if most of us were born in the same year (high school and college friends). But they had more disposable income than I did because my graduation was delayed by depression, and the most certain way of ensuring an event that I could afford to attend was to plan it. That said, my friends saw each other sometimes without me, or invited me along and paid for my share when I couldn’t afford it. (I’m in Finland and there’s no tradition here of hosts paying for everyone when hosting an event in a restaurant, even if this happens naturally when hosting dinner at home.)

      After my son was born, and my friends had their second, third, or fourth kids, we cut down on the restaurant visits and mostly took turns hosting events in our homes, and invitations always included spouses and kids. This went on for a few years, until the oldest kids no longer wanted to tag along and were old enough to be left at home alone. Now we’ll occasionally host an event, but mostly it’s gone back to socializing with just the core friend group. My husband has a few interests in common with my best friend’s husband (hiking and hi-fi) so we also socialize as a couple, with or without kids, our son gets along with their son, at least enough to hang out for an hour or two’s gaming every few months.

      It has to be said, though, that my best friend is the main organizer for events that happen outside someone’s home of our entire group.

  34. Leadership book recommendations*

    Have you read an inspiring book on the topic of Leadership? I am looking for books, articles, podcasts on how to develop as a leader. I work in higher education so even better if it is tailored to that industry but I find I learn a lot even from very business-y oriented books. I am re-reading The First 90 days as I am starting a new job soon, and I’m getting things I missed the first go-around.

    1. Helvetica*

      It’s a bit more specifically about group dynamics and how to handle it but I really liked “Our Iceberg Is Melting”. It is short, funny, and yet thought-provoking in its simplicity.
      And again, coming at it from an angle, I really liked Samantha Powers’ “The Education of an Idealist” – because she seems to be a person much like me and I found her struggles and successes of leadership, which was thrust on her in some cases, to be valuable lessons.

    2. Texan In Exile*

      I loved “From Good to Great.” It’s not so much about developing as a leader, but it has so many good insights.

    4. mreasy*

      I love and will always recommend Resilient Management. And it’s not specifically leadership but Non-Violent Communication is illuminating.

    5. ThatOtherClare*

      Deborah Tannen’s ‘Talking From 9 to 5’ isn’t about leadership, it’s about communication; but leadership is impossible without communication and her book is phenomenal. It didn’t teach me how to communicate, it taught me how to understand the way I and others communicate – which has been far more useful in a ‘teach a woman to fish’ kind of way.

      There’s a 1.5 hour talk on YouTube from the John Adams institute where she summarises the book, but she’s forced by time to leave out a lot of really excellent content so I still recommend buying the book if you can.

  35. Wedding customs?*

    Random discussion question about wedding customs. At some point in the ongoing flow of time I came across a handful of AITA threads on Reddit talking about alcohol at wedding receptions. In these threads I was astonished to learn that some people were angry and upset at the idea of “cheapskate” brides and grooms not offering booze for the reception. They felt like they were cheated, like what was even the point, like they would turn around and leave if they showed up at a reception with no booze, like the bride and groom owed them a chance to drink if they expected them to come to their big party. (As an aside, many of these people self-identified as living on the East Coast of the US, which is not where I’m from, so I don’t know the customs there very well.)

    When I got married we didn’t have alcohol at the reception for various reasons, including money, insurance issues, and so on, it primarily because we both had close family members that it was important to us to invite who were alcoholics and we wanted to forestall the chance of drunken scenes. I grew up fairly religious in a faith that frowned on alcohol so I’d only been to a few receptions with it anyway. We had a wonderful time, as far as I know we had no guests storm out due to the drink situation, and while the alcoholic family members almost certainly had an after-party, they behaved at the reception.

    So here’s my question for you (or rather, questions); is this a custom you’re familiar with? Are there places where this would be such a huge issue for guests? (I know people on the internet can talk a big game when they wouldn’t necessarily do what they’re alleging in real life) And are there any other random wedding customs you’ve come across that people feel strongly about that you were unfamiliar with? Please share!

    1. RussianInTexas*

      In my circle alcohol, the open bar, specifically, is expected, for the evening reception. It would be considered a bit of being cheap if not doing so, but I also don’t have any friends who are religious this way (alcohol consumption), or openly abstaining for moral or abstaining reasons.
      Morning and daytime are less expected to have alcohol.
      But I don’t think anyone would get so upset and frustrated at not having alcohol that they would literally not go to a wedding or leave? That would be ridiculous. I haven’t seen any drunken scenes at weddings either, so that hasn’t seem to be a problem.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        Honestly, I would be a lot more upset if the reception is during the dinner time and you aren’t being fed a dinner. Or you are left for two hours between the ceremony and the reception without a place to spend it and without refreshments. Or having a wedding in some difficult to access place, like requiring you to walk for a mile to get there. Or not enough bathrooms.
        These logistics are more important than alcohol.

      2. RussianInTexas*

        Now, if you are having a Russian wedding, you MAY commit a grave offence of you don’t serve (enough) alcohol. Or if you don’t serve the incredible amount of food.

      3. Nicosloanica*

        I agree – I wouldn’t walk out, but I would privately think it was cheap hosting, as if they just had a cracker plate out. I did go to a dry wedding in a religious area (maybe it was beer-wine only with dinner – I can’t remember). We still had a nice time, but it felt more like it was a small gathering mostly for the family, not intended for us (college friends who came from out of town). Partly, holding a big wedding is in some ways asking folks to pay for flights, hotel rooms, and gifts on your terms, hundreds of dollars per person, so if you can’t put together money for hospitality it’s probably better to go for small and intimate. This thread does remind me of the sheer outrage in the comments when someone who was vegan wanted to host a vegan reception. People said they would walk out if not served meat dinners, that they would faint from hunger, etc. I wonder if that’s changed in the 5-10 years since that thread.

    2. Golden French Fry*

      Interesting topic! Most of my family/friends who’s weddings I’ve been to (mainly people with origins in the rural midwest) have included an open bar. In the couple cases where it didn’t, I feel like a lot of people (myself included) spent more time partying in someone’s hotel room instead of at the reception, but not to prove a point or anything.

      My MIL was scandalized that we did artificial flowers as opposed to real, but also wasn’t willing to pay for them. I’m not sure if a lot of people feel that way or just her though.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        Friend of mine comes from a wealthy oil family. For the longest time the money were in the hands of the old mean grandma. The grandkids generation was set up for college, but afterwards they made their own way, because their mother was divorced from the “family”.
        Friend’s sister was planning a wedding. When Mean Grandma heard the sister was not planning on the open bar for the budgetary reasons, she was angst. What would her counter club friends think???? She ended up giving them money for the open bar.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        My mother made my and my bridesmaids’ bouquets out of silk flowers she made and they were gorgeous! Did not bother with any other flowers, as our venue was an historic mansion and lovely in its own right.

    3. Abigail*

      Where I live, it’s either open bar or a dry wedding. Cash bars are not very common at all.

      Dry weddings tend to be earlier in the day. This is not an absolute rule by any means, brunch weddings can certainly have mimosa and bloody Mary’s.

      I don’t know anybody would would RSVP no to a dry wedding. At the same time, I know many people who consider some type of alcoholic beverage for adults to be a necessary part of hosting.

      For myself, I love a champagne toast and cocktails at a wedding but I understand it’s very expensive to provide an open bar so I am not upset when it’s not an option.

      1. Morning Reader*

        This (open bar or no alcohol) seems to be the custom that I’m familiar with. If it’s a dry wedding, I haven’t heard of objections; these are usually in a church that doesn’t do alcohol. (My sister’s wedding with reception in church basement is an example.)
        If you have alcohol, though, it might be considered cheap to make guests pay for it. I think the term “open bar” means the hosts are paying. So, going to a wedding, assuming all the expenses attached, and then having to pay for a drink, strikes people as tacky. If you can’t afford it, have a smaller wedding or a dry wedding.
        I’ve never been to a wedding that charged for drinks. I can see how people might grumble about it online.
        Last wedding I went to had signature cocktails named for the bride and groom. That seems a cute trend! (I don’t recall details but the choices may have been beer, wine, or one of those cocktails, so they didn’t need a full bar.)

        1. Clisby*

          Open bar is fine. No alcohol is fine. Where I’m from, a cash bar would be hopelessly tacky, not to mention cheap.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            Yeah, I think the major objection: have no booze, or have booze, but pay for the booze if you have it.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        The idea of “brunch weddings” is interesting to me, looking from Ireland. Weddings here are all day affairs and by all day…I mean, when I was a bridesmaid at my friend’s wedding, we started getting ready about 6am or 7am and went to bed at 5:30am the following morning, so nearly 24 hours, if you count the getting hair and make up done and having breakfast as part of the wedding.

        The guests who weren’t bridesmaids arrived about midday for the church part, but it was still well over 12 hours.

        A colleague of mine just wanted to have a lunch typed meal with her wedding but couldn’t find a hotel willing to do that.

        I don’t think I’ve ever seen a dry wedding. Any wedding I’ve heard of has had a meal and then a party thing in a hotel, so there would always be alcohol available for the guests to buy anyway.

      3. Jay (no, the other one)*

        Our ceremony was at 11:00 AM with luncheon to follow. We had white wine and champagne, not an open bar. Nobody objected.

    4. Double A*

      I think alcohol is the norm at weddings but there are lots of things that are the norms at weddings and people can be free to skip or modify as fits their situation. To me the only thing that is a non-negotiable is feeding people in some way; if for some reason you’re not going to feed people, you better be super clear about that fact and also schedule a short wedding in between meal times. And still I think that’s fairly rude.

      People who freak out about dry weddings are telling on themselves about their alcohol dependency. People who freak out about anything else are telling on themselves about other things (usually their attachment to patriarchy).

      1. tangerineRose*

        I don’t like the taste of alcohol myself, but on AITA, a lot of people think that if someone has a dry wedding, they need to let the guests know beforehand. I’m not sure why it’s that big of a deal, aren’t the guests coming in honor of a couple getting married?

        1. Wedding customs?*

          That was my thought too. I mean, I’ve been to weddings with things I disagreed with, and I…. shut my mouth and gave the new couple a big at the end and wished them the best, because it’s not about ME.

          1. RI think it's more of you are doing something that out of the hotelsussianInTexas*

            I think it’s more of you are doing sometime that is out of the norms in your specific circle, warn people beforehand.
            Be that a dry wedding, outdoor, vegan, etc.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              I agree with this. If you’re going to not provide a meal, or serve a very very strict menu or it’s a ten mile hike to the venue, people REALLY need to know those things.

              1. Wedding customs?*

                Hah! I totally agree with you, and did my best to meet that need. On our website (which many people used to RSVP, although there was a mailing option for that too), I made a small FAQ section that answered questions about things like the meal (vegetarian friendly, let me know if you have any other food restrictions), disabled access, and parking (thankfully both the church where we had the wedding and the venue where we had the reception had a ton of parking). Did anyone read it? Not that I could tell! Or at least there was one important question that it felt like EVERYONE asked me (was I going to change my name??) that I answered on the FAQs, to no avail.

                (As an aside, no matter what the newlyweds decide on name changes vs not, I recommend the following to anyone who wants to write a check: do NOT write the check to what you assume the bride’s new name will be, and write the check either to just one member of the couple, or else say Person X OR Person Y, not Person X AND Person Y. I didn’t change my name but had a number of checks written to Mrs. HisLastName which was a pain when trying to cash them, and there were a few checks written with both our names and the word AND, meaning that both of us had to sign them, which meant that we were scrambling to get at least one of our bank accounts to be joint right after the wedding when we just wanted to relax. And one person wrote a check with no first names, just Mr. and Mrs. HisLastName. His parents left about an hour before we opened gifts, or I would have asked if they could have taken the check and cashed it themselves and just given us the money instead.)

    5. Grits McGee*

      I feel like the demand for alcohol is similar to the demand for meat at weddings- something that ultimately doesn’t matter, but guests have really strong feelings about. I also wonder if people are subconsciously taking the absence of alcohol or meat as a bad sign- for alcohol, that the bride+groom have cheaped out, and the guest experience will not be great. And for meat, that the food will be bad/unfamiliar/unfilling. Neither of these are true- we’ve all had stories of receptions with open bars and no food, and the presence of meat has no bearing on whether food will be edible.

      As far as other wedding customs- money dances are another tradition that people have strong feelings about. It would be fascinating to read an anthropological study of money-gift vs object-gift customs for weddings.

      1. Mutually supportive*

        I think some people don’t know how to relax and enjoy themselves, or have funny conversations, or dance where people can see, without being under the influence of some alcohol.

        1. Nicosloanica*

          I mean, its reputation is literally a social lubricant. At a wedding, where you’re going to have awkward conversations with strangers all night, it’s nice to have that crutch. But honestly, you will never get ten people to agree on the right amount of alcohol in a life, everyone will believe the right amount is whatever they do.

    6. Mutually supportive*

      I’m in the UK. I don’t think I’ve ever been to a wedding with no alcohol at all.

      The weddings I’ve been to have given champagne for the toasts, and wine on the table during the meal, then sometimes it’s an open bar for the rest of the evening but also quite normal for guests to buy their own for the rest of the evening.

      1. londonedit*

        Yep, this is my UK experience. A wedding with no alcohol at all would be extremely unusual. You usually have champagne and nibbles/canapes at the reception venue for the guests while the bride and groom and immediate family are having photos taken, then there will be wine on the tables with the meal (traditionally it’s a sit-down meal) and champagne for the toasts. After that there may be an open bar, but it’s not uncommon for guests to pay for their own drinks for the evening part of the do. Sometimes there might be a certain amount of money behind the bar for the evening, and then guests buy their own after that.

        The way most British weddings work is that the ceremony itself will be late morning/early afternoon, then you have the reception with said champagne/nibbles, sit-down meal, speeches/toasts etc, and then an evening do with dancing and cake cutting and a buffet later in the evening. Often there will be one set of guests invited for the entire day, from ceremony to midnight, and then another set of guests who are just invited for the evening party bit.

    7. My Brain is Exploding*

      I’ve been to a number of wedding receptions without alcohol…didn’t bother us in the least. Ours didn’t have any but it was a tiny reception with a recovering alcoholic in attendance and spouse and I didn’t like alcohol anyway. I’d rather have the money spent on food, LoL. One of our kids sort of split the difference with serving wine and beer at the reception, no hard liquor or cocktails. The thing I don’t like – and I know it’s cultural – is the money dance (although I believe some folks for whom that is def NOT their culture have adopted it because…money.

    8. Bitte Meddler*

      I’ve only been to one wedding where there wasn’t any alcohol, not even a champagne toast.

      The couple’s families were verrrrrrrry conservative Southern Baptists.

      My boyfriend at the time was one of the Best Men, and I only knew him and the groom. (I’d met the bride once, but it was at a large party and we didn’t chat).

      The reception was *painful*. There wasn’t any music, or laughter, or food beyond cake and a sugary punch. I would have killed for a glass of water.

      I know a lot of people who only consume alcohol during celebratory events (weddings, birthdays, holidays) and not, say, during dinner at home. So booze at a wedding would be expected since it’s a big celebration.

      I have been to a few weddings with cash bars for any drinks beyond the champagne toast. Totally fine and understandable, expense-wise.

      As for weird wedding traditions: My ex went to his niece’s wedding this past weekend and he said, “Instead of a Money Dance, they had tip jars with the bride and groom’s names on them. Whichever jar had the least amount of money at the end of the reception, that person had to go jump into the river.”

      I have never heard of a Money Dance at a wedding. The phrase makes me think of strip tease / pole dancing.

      I once saw a Cash Tree / Money Tree where you were expected to clip large-denomination bills ($20 or higher) to the various branches. I thought that was weird, especially since the parents of the bride were guarding the tree and therefore taking note of how much each person gave (or didn’t give). Yikes.

      1. Wedding customs?*

        I would have been exactly 0% on board with jumping into a river in my fancy wedding dress (much cheaper than most but still a couple hundred dollars), with my fancy hairdo.

    9. GenX Enters The Chat*

      I’m Southern and white, originally from New Orleans. Open bar is the standard, but I’ve also seen beer and wine only instead of the full bar. I’ve been to a few no-alcohol weddings. One, the groom is in recovery, the other, teetotal Baptist parents were footing the bill. I’m far more concerned with whether people are fed appropriately and there’s decent seating. The recent NYTimes article about couples charging guests to attend had me in horrors. So rude. so tacky, so greedy. I would never pay hundreds of dollars to go to a wedding.

    10. Ellis Bell*

      I’ve been to a wedding where there was a lot of muttering about alcohol. The bride was Muslim, but someone who was happy to be around drinkers typically, however she knew her family would not be that keen on it. Her wedding, to a Church of England guy, was a two stage affair; the first a traditional Muslim evening ceremony with a banquet afterwards and the following day, a legal registry wedding with a reception at a pub afterwards. For obvious reasons, no one was expecting alcohol at the traditional banquet and no one uttered a word about its absence. In large part this was due to the expectations, but also because we were fed like kings throughout until the dancing started, and constantly having something delicious to try is a big distraction. The following day, people were expecting to be able to drink at the pub, but they’d arranged it so they had the run of the place and that alcohol wouldn’t be served until 10pm. People started discreetly grumbling that they were dying for a drink at around 6pm which was after the food and there was nothing much else to do except drink soft drinks. I don’t think it occurred to my friend that people would be unable to wait a couple of hours! Still, both events were beautiful.

    11. Vio*

      Every wedding I’ve been to in the UK has had alcohol sold, the only open bar reception I’ve been to was in Belgium. Although several UK receptions have given each guest one glass of champagne or wine for a toast.

      I was surprised to discover that in the US it’s apparently the norm to throw rice at the wedding, every wedding I’ve been to has used confetti and the more recent ones it’s been specifically biodegradable confetti.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Rice has been discouraged for quite some time because it is very, very bad for birds to eat. Often actual birdseed is substituted!

    12. Ali + Nino*

      Honestly, I think if you’re debating having alcohol, either go big or go home – either you have an open bar (stocked with whatever alcoholic beverages you are willing to pay for) or you don’t serve alcohol, period. This cash bar stuff is just tacky. Would you invite someone over to your home for dinner and then charge them for it? Similarly, my sister held a wedding-related event with an open bar for the first hour, after which you had to pay for drinks. Sorry, not a good look.

      1. Wedding customs?*

        I’ve also seen some people who had champagne for the toast and then just beer and cider, instead of a full open bar. I’ve never been someplace that had guests pay for alcohol, though.

    13. Callia*

      I’m on the west coat of the US. We had a dry wedding because we didn’t want to give alcoholic family members a chance to start drama. (They started drama anyway, but it would have been a lot worse with alcohol available.) We made special themed mocktails instead. If any of our other guests were bothered by it, they didn’t say so to me or my husband.

    14. The OG Sleepless*

      I grew up Southern Baptist in the rural south. Alcohol-free weddings were the norm in that culture. This included some very nice receptions given by wealthy families, so it definitely wasn’t about being cheap (though the lower cost is a nice plus). It was normal enough in my early experience that I still don’t necessarily expect alcohol at weddings, even though I’m no longer Baptist or rural.

    15. Angstrom*

      I’ve been to a variety: open bar, cash bar, dry, and dry except for one bottle of champagne per table for toasts. Most of them were afternoon receptions. I’d be more likely to expect an open bar at an evening reception but wouldn’t be at all bothered if it was dry.
      I may be biased because I’m used to going to social dance events that are alcohol-free. I’m not surprised that some people can’t imagine a party without alcohol.

    16. Angstrom*

      The money dance or dollar dance. Normal and expected in some cultures, considered vulgar or tacky or just not done in others.
      The chicken dance and the hokey-pokey. Saw them at a couple of Midwestern receptions, had never seen them on the East Coast.

    17. dapfloodle*

      We had a keg and 2 types of wine at my reception (15 years ago), as well as iced tea and water (and I think lemonade for the kids? I’m not sure). We had cake, cheese and other snacks, Indian food, and a couple of sandwich trays from Subway for people that didn’t like Indian food.

      I was a member of a wedding website when wedding-planning and many folks were definitely saying that if they went to a “dry” wedding they would just bring a flask, which kind of defeats the point of having a dry wedding so folks don’t get rowdy, I guess. I know I’ve been to one or two “dry” weddings — one of my cousins for sure had one, and I think maybe one of his sisters did too when she got married. Both weddings were in the daytime, one was just a cake and punch type reception, one had a catered barbecue meal. In their case, it wasn’t completely a religious thing (though both were church weddings with receptions in the church hall), it’s because their mother struggled with alcoholism (I mean that literally, there were times when she didn’t drink but it was very difficult for her to sustain that).

      I’m not sure if I’ve been to a wedding with a “money dance,” I had to go to a bunch of weddings as a child as my mother was dating a wedding musician, so it might have happened at one or some of those. I guess the odd tradition I had at my wedding was a groom’s cake… they are traditional in my area of the US, they are usually chocolate cakes and often have novelty/fun themes. When my relatives went to the bakery to pick up the cakes for my wedding, referring to the groom’s cake, they were asked, “are you the longhorn or the record player?” because there had been two groom’s cake orders for the same day (we were the record player).

      1. dapfloodle*

        Oh, I guess I was supposed to specify that we didn’t ask people to pay for the drinks, food, or reception attendance, though of course we did get some gifts from our guests.

    18. Maggie*

      I don’t even drink much but in general yes I would expect some type of wine or bar or something to be made available. If it wasn’t, I would simply make do without complaint. It’s your event so host it how you want, but some people are going to think it’s bad hosting to not offer some adult beverages at a large party for adults. My opinion is that you need to serve your guests cake and enough food. Been to so many weddings where the food is so meager and only the bride and groom get a small fancy cake and give cheap store bought desserts to the guest. Again, I make do without complaint in the moment, but it comes off rude to me to buy a fancy cake for yourself and give your guests crappy premade stuff from the grocery store.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            Me neither as well! I can understand a small separate cake just for the bride and groom, or the top tier being set aside, but not “here’s a Hostess cupcake.”

      2. Wedding customs?*

        I totally agree about the food! That was one of the few areas where I wanted to spend a fair bit; we had plenty to eat and it was substantial. Having been a vegetarian in the past (Although not now), I also made a point of having good solid vegetarian meals – no getting by with a few lettuce leaves and some shreds of carrot. We got cakes from Costco – neither of us cared too much about the cake and my cake-eating friends tend to be fans of the way Costco makes theirs – but we also had several homemade pies and one or two other things.

        I think the “adult party” was one of the areas where we tried to do things differently. We had about 90-100 people total at the reception, and around 15 of those were kids. So we did our best (knowing that that would be the case, and that it might be even more – I had invited several cousins with their kids but they had a long way to travel so some of them came alone and left their spouse with the kids) to make it welcoming for them. We had a place for them to spread out and play, which then became the dance floor (one of many of my fondest memories from that night is dancing with some of my adult friends around the circle of kids bouncing up and down together and grabbing my hands to dance with me). We had one part of the reception that was like a mini special event that was for all ages and the kids really liked it. There was a Mac n cheese bar which was one of the vegetarian options, but was also potentially child-friendly. Etc. So while I think kids can be fine around alcohol – it’s not going to hurt them to see adults making good choices and sipping on an adult beverage – I felt like having kids was also a good excuse for not having it. And we very much wanted it to be a party where our whole community was welcome (well, 100 or so members of our community), not just adults. But I’ve definitely been to weddings that are mostly or all adults, and I can see that that could have a very different feel.

    19. Jen Erik*

      The norm in the part of the UK I live in is that you get a drink – non-alcoholic or not – when you arrive at the reception, wine on the table with the meal, sparkling wine for the toasts and anything else you buy from the bar. The hosts sometimes put money behind the bar to pay for a certain amount of the drinks.
      I’m wondering now – if you attend a wedding as a guest with an open bar, are there protocols about it? Like is it polite to drink only so much, or only cheaper drinks? (I’m thinking about a recent wedding where a guest was so horrified at the price of a cocktail he refused to accept it. I think it was £25. But if the couple were covering drinks at those prices, that could add a significant amount to the costs.)

      I did once see a money dance at an Albanian wedding – very different from a UK wedding, but the most fun.

      1. UKDancer*

        Yes the UK weddings I’ve all been to have had fizz at the reception, wine with the meal and then a toast and then a cash bar into the evening or after a certain time. I’ve never been to any that didn’t have alcohol but there’s almost always a cut off time for it to be served.

      2. Nicosloanica*

        There really aren’t social conventions about the open bar – some will see it as an opportunity to order strong top-shelf mixed drinks, others (as in this thread) will just sip a lemonade anyway. The bar management can keep boundaries around it and hopefully prevent people from being overserved, although if someone’s determined they’ll bring their own flask or whatever and make you deal with tossing them out.

      3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        I heard a great solution — have a cash bar, but flip a coin about whether you need to pay or not. It means that people order the drinks they’d pay for, but might only pay for half of them.

    20. Not A Manager*

      When I was young, in our social circle there was no such thing as a “plus one.” You invited both members of a committed couple, or neither of them (committed meaning married, living together, or engaged; not “dating”). In that case, you knew the significant other’s name and sent them an invitation, or you learned their name and sent them an invitation. People who were not “coupled” in this way were expected to come alone and be pleasant to the people around them.

      Obviously this “tradition” – which might not have been universal even in my area, I have no idea – has fallen by the wayside. It still feels weird to me that the hosts are expected to include people in their meaningful life commitment that they have never met, and who might not be important at all to the guest that they did want to invite.

    21. Weddings are weird*

      I truly, honestly don’t understand people who care so much about other people’s weddings. Everyone should just…have the wedding they want! I’m sure if pressed I could think up some situations that would make me unhappy to be there (unbearable awfulness of some sort or other?), but then I’d just bow out early. Or not go, if I knew in advance.

      Getting married was the single most intensive Unsolicited Advice Giving experience of my life, even more so than having a kid (although that too, just that it was/is over a longer period of time). There were SO MANY OPINIONS. About everything! Every aspect had people taking weird sides (music, food, dress, formality) Even from people who wouldn’t be invited! Strangers! Coworkers I’d had two conversations with! It was wild. And totally mystifying.

      But to answer your question, I’ve been to dry weddings, beer and wine only weddings, open bar weddings and weddings where half the people got thoroughly and impressively smashed. In all cases, I was pleased to be there to support the awesome people getting married (or, in the case of a few family ones as a kid, generally happy for folks I didn’t know super well).

    22. Wedding customs?*

      I was just reminded of another new custom that I’m still not used to: adult-only weddings. I’ve always grown up with the idea that a wedding is to make your vows in front of your whole community, and it seems odd to me to have part of them excluded by age. When I got married I invited (along with others) all of my first cousins, most of whom had young kids at the time and some of whom had to travel from a long ways away, so it just made more sense to have kids. But I know for some people it’s a big deal not to have kids at their weddings and I get that it’s a helpful or desirable thing for them.

      1. RI think it's more of you are doing something that out of the hotelsussianInTexas*

        Pretty much all weddings I’ve been to are adult-only weddings!

      2. Cat Lover*

        Ooh see, I’ve had friends do the opposite. One of my best friends from high school got married last year (we are in late 20s). One of our friends has a young daughter and is from out of state, so she left the kid with her husband and she flew out. It would’ve been too overwhelming for her to come with her daughter alone since her husband had to work. We were sad her husband couldn’t come, but ultimately she’s the friend of the bride, and she wanted to enjoy the wedding, not babysit.

        To be fair, I only have 2 friends in my social circle with kids. I’m of the young millennial age where none of my friends have kids.

    23. Margali*

      I’ve been to more weddings with cash bars than hosted ones, and more of both of those than dry weddings. I wonder if it’s a US West Coast thing — I usually assume it will be a cash bar and then am pleasantly surprised if it’s not. Ones with cash bars usually provide wine and beer for the dinner tables.

      I don’t come from a culture that does money dances, so those make me a little itchy. I can’t imagine having a destination wedding for myself — I’d rather have a lower key wedding and then go to the fancy destination for my honeymoon

    24. Hroethvitnir*

      I’m from Aotearoa (NZ), and my friends are starting to get married. I’ve been to weddings with a cash bar or only a couple of drink tickets and I don’t care at all. Open bar is a *huge* amount of money! Now that I think about it the only open bar was my friends where the groom was from the US.

      I would find it weird if it was a dry wedding without saying on the invite,(unless they are Muslim or otherwise known not to drink – I assumed my vegan friend’s wedding would be vegan though they may have also said? I can’t remember.)

      IME Reddit tends to have the “it’s beyond the pale to have a dry wedding without warning people” group and the “if you like alcohol at events you’re an alcoholic” group. It’s pretty painful lol.

      The more reasonable drinkers are usually not saying they’d storm out, more that without alcohol it’s overwhelmingly likely people won’t stay as long. Which is fine, but it will impact the kind of wedding you have.

      1. Jill Swinburne*

        In NZ we had bubbles for toasts, then a bar tab. After that ran out people were on their own.

    25. goddessoftransitory*

      I think this is very, very much a local customs/social circles thing. I can definitely see scenarios where an open bar is expected, especially if it’s a big formal bash, but it’s hardly a blanket expectation!

      I live in Washington state and when I got married a million years ago, we booked a venue that basically did nothing but weddings and other events, so they were old hands. We ended up doing beer and wine, but not hard liquor, for two reasons: one, we had to order and pay personally for all alcohol served due to liability reasons, and had to engage the venue’s professional licensed bartenders if we intended to serve the hard stuff. This was all due to the state’s liquor laws, which were and are very, very strict.

    26. lucks*

      I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a dry wedding, but I do think that you should give guests a heads up so they don’t spend money unnecessarily. By that I mean if you don’t tell them then they spend money taking an Uber/ Lyft instead of driving or get a hotel room, neither of which they would have done if they knew that their would not be alcohol. I would be very annoyed if I spent unnecessary money to get to a wedding.

  36. Anonymous Teacher*

    Fellow teachers, any books or podcast recommendations for middle school classroom management? I’ve been teaching for a very long time, but it’s only been a few weeks and I can tell the vibes are weird this year. I need a refresher on some old ideas I’ve forgotten, and some new ideas a well.

    1. Rara Avis*

      The First Days of School, Harry Wong? It’s a classic, so maybe you’re already familiar with it. My 6th grade classes are maxed out this year, so I can tell I’m going to have to be on top of my game.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        His suggestions are good/great, but I honestly had trouble dealing with how he describes his personal life. Like…he teaches seven classes and then just goes off to play raquetball and then make a homemade Italian dinner for his wife? That kind of stuff really makes it sound like he’s just phoning it in. I suggest ignoring it.

        But honestly, the stuff about setting a pattern and then ingraining it as a habit for both your and your students is good and does work–but you have to commit to it.

    3. ThatOtherClare*

      This is going to sound odd, but I also recommend to you the book I recommended in response to the leadership question above: ‘Talking From 9 to 5’ by Deborah Tannen.

      Applying critical thinking as you read you’ll quickly see how her insights on communication are relevant in any situation where you’re saying one thing and your conversation partner is hearing something else, and talking to teens is definitely one of those! I’m finding etablishing and maintaining relationships of mutual respect in tense situations is way easier when someone else has taught you to recognise the communication mistakes you didn’t previously realise you were making, and the ways in which you’re likely to be misunderstood.

    4. Nightengale*

      I’m not a teacher any longer – I’m a doctor who works with kids with behavioral disabilities.

      The two books I recommend for educators – by way of their parents are

      Lost at School
      and
      Connections over Compliance

      Both are full of practical strategies from a relationship based approach. Connections over Compliance is newer and I really love the “amydala reset” strategies. Lost At School is based on a collaborative problem solving approach that removes reinforcement/consequences completely and solves problems one by one with students. It has been shown to significantly decrease office referrals and detentions when implemented school/district wide.

    1. Justin*

      As someone who went to fancy schools as a person of color, with friends who went that route, it’s really just a pertinent example of a hollowed out marginalized person hoping wealth will solve everything. (So is Harper, obviously.)

      1. Elle*

        One thing that sticks out this season is how they’re all broke. They have these great houses and all that goes with it but no money.
        It will drive me crazy if Rishi keeps his job.

        1. Justin*

          They’re all broke because the only goal is to get MORE and to get more you have to buy more and then whoops.

          He will keep it. The whole place is amoral. But that I don’t mean pure evil in wanting to cause harm, I mean in that they truly don’t care, it’s just the money.

          Which I honestly find worse than someone who truly wants to cause harm at all costs. Those people are rare.

    2. TPS reporter*

      the subreddit would be a fascinating read! could be an interesting place to work in your 20s but seems rife for burnout. it’s basically gambling every day.

    3. TPS reporter*

      it’s not a job, it’s gambling. it’s like a catch 22 industry where the only people who want the job shouldn’t have it.

  38. Ali + Nino*

    How do you manage work when you’re feeling completely shattered? Devastating news for my extended family (and no one seems to care) and I have a major conference in a few days. I can’t think straight.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I recommend reading Captain Awkward post #450: How to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed. It has some good, practical steps to take at work when your personal life is on the rocks (whether from depression, devastating news, or other reasons).

      I’ll post a link in a reply to this comment. Sorry about your extended family, and extra sorry that no one seems to care. That always makes a bad situation worse :(

    2. not my usual self*

      I’m currently going through this (but with immediate family), thankfully not with a major conference coming up (hope you are just attending and not presenting). I fully understand that this may not be everyone’s choice, but I’ve been honest about the reason that I can’t think straight or might seem different-in-a-bad-way at work, just with varying levels of detail depending on how closely I work with the person or how I feel about them. As for actually getting tasks done, all I can think of is that I’m making more lists than usual since my executive function really isn’t there right now.

    3. Elle Woods*

      No advice, just sympathy. I’m sorry that no one seems to care. I’ve been there and it’s not easy.

    4. Anonymous cat*

      If possible,
      I try to do the parts of my job that are rote to me or that have clearly defined steps, like filling out forms.

      The idea is—I don’t have to think. I just have to follow steps 1, 2, and 3.

      And I let myself have comfort food in order to get myself to eat. I figure it’s better to eat **something** than to stop eating due to stress.

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

    5. 1 Non Blonde*

      Due to circumstances around the extent of my brother’s injuries after a motorcycle accident, it was unknown when he would wake up from his coma. So after 1.5 weeks, I went back to work, as I was low on vacation/sick time. Same situation—no one seemed to care, nor even, like, commend me or bring up how tough it must have been to work during this time. At this job as well it was seen as a bad practice to have your cell phone out, but I did during this time to get updates. I was also supposed to go to a conference the following week after his accident, but because things were so unknown with his condition, I did not go, and people seemed to understand. (Immediately after the accident, the doctors didn’t think he’d be in a coma for that long, so I left my job thinking he’d be awake in a couple days and then I would go to the conference and get back to life as usual)

      He thankfully woke up the next week (after 3 weeks), and was back to his old self, minus one arm.

      So anyways, hugs from afar. Also, in my case, this was a symptom of much bigger issues, so I did leave about a year later.

    6. Sending good vibes your way*

      Very very sorry you are going through this. It sounds tremendously hard.

      Re people not seeming to care — been there. As it happened to turn out, I found out MUCH later, that people did care but had NO idea what to say or how to act. So they did/said nothing. Bad choice, of course, but common in these situations. (Especially at work, but also in families and with friends.) And in fact I have one family member who absolutely DOES care deeply about such things but was raised in a family where you did not ask questions or make comments or even offer to show up (because she thinks she is intruding unless you specifically ask her to show up), so she could be mistaken for someone who does not care in my otherwise emotive family. But I’ve known her long enough now to know she does care and she would give you the shirt off her back, you just have to remember to ask. As for others who have in the past seemed they didn’t care, in the end I was happy to find out they did care, although I didn’t find out til years later. I hope this is true for you also — that people do care, but are just awkward as heck.

      Anyway — best wishes to you and your family. Hang in there. We will all be thinking of you.

    7. ThatOtherClare*

      People are weird, awkward and stupid, and they react in dumb ways under unexpected pressure. Some people are devoid of empathy, but not so many, in my experience.

      I hope you turn out to be surrounded by normal people whose response to misfortune is to stick their heads in the sand, and are wandering around touched by your pain and clueless that they’re contributing. Sometimes we just have to nurse ourselves because nobody else is going to be semi-competent at it, but so long as we’re in an environment surrounded by kind, empathetic people it’s not too hard. Don’t be afraid to ask for little bits of help regarding the conference, most people jump at the chance to help out in small ways (because they get to feel like a good person) but they don’t know what you need and don’t want to overstep.

      I’m very sorry to hear about your family news and I wish you all, all the best in the tortuous recovery process.

    8. Le le lemon*

      You are going to “be unwell” early/partway through the conference, and go back to your hotel room for quiet/solo time for the rest of the day.
      Industry teachings can be caught up on.
      Sorry things are so stressful.

  39. Agnes Grey*

    Am I remembering correctly that at some point there was talk of a Jorts the cat/AAM crossover post? I wonder whether that might ever become a reality… it certainly would be delightful.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      You mean like Alison should “interview” Jorts? OMG, I would love that. I love that kitty.

      I choose to believe that it is actually Jorts who tweets. :D

      1. Agnes Grey*

        Same! With his own toe beans lol. I think the idea was that Alison would interview Jorts about unionizing or something? I’m sure it would be challenging to interview someone who’s so rigorous about maintaining a certain level of anonymity but it would be so cool.

  40. Bookworm*

    I’m in the US and was chatting with an online friend who lives in the EU about the differences in bill payment methods. We connected from a personal finance group. In the EU, direct debit/auto pay (it’s called auto pay in the US) from your bank account is very common. Checks don’t exist. In the US, some people still write checks and send them through the mail. Some small town utilities won’t take anything but a check. Here in the US, it’s common for internet/mobile phone providers to give a $10/month discount for direct debit/auto pay from your bank account. Online bill pay (electronic payments that you initiate through your bank’s app/website) is very common.

    But a lot of people in the US seem to be afraid of direct debit/auto pay. They don’t want any entity to have access to their bank account. They think they’re going to lose money from bungled transactions by the utility company, etc. When I’ve mentioned to folks in the US that in the EU (and I’m sure other countries) that direct debit/auto pay is pretty much the only option, they just can’t get their brains around it. I really don’t know why checks have hung on so long here in the US. I even know people IRL, and not just senior citizens, who are scared to death of online banking of any form. They still get paper bank statements in the mail. They think if they use online banking in any form, they’re going to be hacked and lose all their money.

    I love learning how people in other countries do things and the differences in attitudes fascinate me.

    1. GoryDetails*

      I actually use a mix of payment methods. (Boomer, if it matters, so I grew up watching Mom write out the checks for all the household bills, envying the process as well as her exquisite handwriting – which I did NOT inherit, alas.)

      I have several major bills on autopay, from my remaining mortgage to the internet/phone/cable package. I still pay my utility bills as they come in, though I do pay them online via my bank account’s web site. (Not sure why I haven’t switched them to autopay; it’s not that I’m afraid of it, just… never got around to it?)

      I used to write checks when sending gifts of money to my niblings, as I loved receiving checks when I was younger, but eventually it became clear that they’d prefer either a physical gift from me or a gift card to their favorite streaming services, so I do that now.

      I still write checks for: property tax bills; there’s a hefty surcharge if one uses credit cards, and I haven’t looked into the direct-debit option. And it’s only twice a year, and I like handing over the check to the clerk in person, just… because? I also write checks for the motor vehicle registration – that’s just once a year, and, again, I haven’t looked into direct-debit options. As I still have a considerable number of checks left, probably enough to last my lifetime at this rate, I may just keep on as I’ve been doing – unless the state offers some incentive for going direct!

      Side note: once upon a time I went to some trouble to acquire customized checks in different styles; it was pleasant to scribble my college fees or nibling gifts or any old bills onto checks ornamented with handsome images of the Tetons, or that time I got a set with skeletons and insects (I am NOT making this up). Once the online age kicked in – and in a period when I’d just been laid off and didn’t have extra cash for frivolous checks – I got the default free checks from my bank, and have used those ever since. Sometimes I miss the cute ones, but who’d even see them now?

      In other payment option styles: a decade or so ago I went on vacation to Quebec City, and found that all of the restaurants there used a handheld device that the servers would bring to the table so customers could insert their credit cards directly. It seemed a lovely idea, and I was sad that it seemed not to have appeared in the US. But recently a few places have adopted a similar method, so there is a nicer option than the default (handing over one’s credit/debit card for a server to take away and process at their pay station).

      Oh, and I do still use cash, mostly for anything cheaper than $20 or so. But that’s increasingly rare. Heck, during COVID lockdown I noticed that I went for over a year without drawing any cash at all {wry grin}!

      1. Cordelia*

        In the UK the servers always bring the card machine to the table so you can pay, you’d never give your card to them to take away, I didn’t know that was a thing! If they don’t have a machine, or it’s not working, you take your bill to the pay station on the way out.

      2. dapfloodle*

        I’d say that over half of the restaurants where I live in the US use the “handheld device” for payment, but I’m not sure if it makes me feel any safer than the alternatives.

    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      Paper cheques do still exist here I’m the UK, we just use them very rarely because direct debit or bank transfer is a lot more common. The only time I’ve used cheques in the last few years is to pay into my state pension and to pay my tax bill, and that’s because I want to have a paper trail when doing that. Otherwise, it’s all electronic.

      And if you pay for anything by cheque you’re giving people your bank account info anyway since it’s printed right there on the cheque! So I don’t think bank transfer is any more or less secure.

      1. Cordelia*

        I’m in the UK and haven’t had a cheque book for years, I think you have to make a special request from your bank nowadays, you don’t get them automatically. They do still exist though. Receiving cheques always used to be a bit of a hassle, as you had to get to a bank within opening hours to pay them in, but now you can scan them on your phone and pay them into your bank via the app apparently. So they’ve kind of become electronic anyway.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        I haven’t had a cheque book in over a decade, and the last time I opened an account it wasn’t offered. Still, I think you can get them if you really want them because I have heard of people resisting bank transfers. My mum went on holiday with her sister and some of my aunt’s friends, and while having lunch she some money she owed to her sister using her phone. The other ladies were very impressed and a little apprehensive: “How did you do that?” and “Doesn’t that mean people can get into your bank account, Anne?”. She made the exact same points about the bank account details being printed on a cheque!

      3. EllenD*

        Also in the UK. For utilities you pay more to have quarterly invoices and pay by cheque, and the invoices are often printed a week before being posted with the expectation that you pay the invoice within 2 weeks, which is impossible if you don’t have on-line banking. In the UK, virtually all shops have stopped accepting cheques and payment is by card – usually contactless or apple pay – or cash. Even trade people expect payment by bank transfer or card over the phone.

    3. Observer*

      They don’t want any entity to have access to their bank account. They think they’re going to lose money from bungled transactions by the utility company, etc.

      That’s a very reasonable fear. Autopay can wind up giving a company more access to your account than any other payment method – yes, including electronic payments that the person initiates. And the idea that a company will never bungle a transaction is almost delusional.

      The other potential problem with auto-pay is that it doesn’t allow for unexpected events. Even people who handle their finances responsibly can wind up a shortfall in their account – or a bill could spike and be more than the normal amount in the account would be.

      A number of years ago there was a change in how certain aspects of our payroll were being handled. All very reasonable and totally legal. But it meant that a number of people were going to see a lot less money in their first paycheck of the change-over month than they were expecting. And apparently there was a breakdown in communications about this and a number of people did have auto-pay enabled for a number of bills.

      It was a mess, and management made the decision to reimburse people for the cost of the bounced checks – the payments didn’t go through and were treated like bounced checks. It was a mess.

      All sort of other things can happen. If a payment can’t go out till someone presses a button, that someone has a chance to see that there is a problem and fix it before pressing the button.

      1. Anonymous cat*

        Also, when online banking for regular checking got started, companies made fixing mistakes really difficult for the consumers.

        I refused to do it for years because of a company that took out way too much money with automatic billing and refused to give it back. Like the bill was $40 and they took $4000.

        It was clearly the business’s mistake and they didn’t deny that. Instead they said they “didn’t give refunds” and the customer could have a huge credit instead.

        The bank refused to get involved on the grounds that the customer did authorize this company to withdraw money.

        The company continued to insist they didn’t give refunds and a huge credit instead was fine.

        And that was the story that convinced me to NEVER give any company automatic billing rights to my bank account.

        (Not sure how the story ended. Hopefully the bad publicity led to getting the money back.)

        1. Anonymous cat*

          Whoops—didn’t make clear that this was NOT my account. It was a story in the news.

          I was keeping an eye on how banks were doing online banking and this story got my attention.

      2. Jackalope*

        Another problem with autopay is that it becomes very easy for companies to change their rates without you knowing. I’m sure they’re required to send an email or something, but if you don’t see it…. I have a regular autopay for a subscription that cost about $14 when I first subscribed a few years ago (2020 or 2021). I recently noticed that it’s now more along the lines of $24/momth, which isn’t that much more dollar-wise but is a huge percentage increase. I had no. Idea. When did it go up? How long have I been paying more? I try to check my credit card statements but I mostly check for whether the companies sound familiar and I’ve actually paid them for something. I don’t always look at how much. This wouldn’t have happened with a regular monthly bill and me sending a check.

    4. Bitte Meddler*

      I work for an international company and my boss is in Germany. I’m an auditor and my boss and I had a funny / frustrating conversation about the use of paper checks in the U.S.

      She just *could not* wrap her head around the idea that some utilities and taxing authorities would require a physical check. She was like, “You guys have the ability to do online bank transfers! Why are you purposefully choosing to be so backwards?”

      I pointed out that at least we’d moved past fax machines for doctors’ offices and healthcare information and you could hear the record-scratch in her brain: “Whaaa—? We cannot email our doctors here. Everything is done via fax or physical paper documents.”

      I asked her what she did when she had, say, lab work done. How did she find out the results? She said she’d learn about it via phone call but would have to go into the doctor’s office if she wanted a copy of the results. I shared my screen with her and showed her how easy it was to log into my medical provider’s portal and see all of my medical tests dating back years.

      And then I was all, “Now who’s purposefully choosing to be so backwards? :-D”

      1. Bookworm*

        I read something recently that Germany is still very attached to fax machines. I was really surprised.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        (In the US) I haven’t had a utility require a physical check recently, but I have seen a bunch that charge a fee for credit card payments OR e-checks. For people whose budgets are extremely tight – or just people offended at the idea of paying extra to pay a bill, I see why paying by paper check persists when it’s the only method that doesn’t cost extra.

      3. dapfloodle*

        Doctor’s offices definitely still have and use fax communication in the part of the US where I live. At work I still have to fax forms to doctor’s offices to get information about patients, they won’t accept/complete these types of forms via email.

        1. Nightengale*

          The number of times in a week I – a doctor – have to tell people we aren’t allowed to e-mail anything containing patient information. . .

          We do at least get our faxes electronically now in a secure e-mail address, so our faxes no longer generate physical paper unless we choose to print one out. At least.

    5. GenX Enters The Chat*

      Entergy in Louisiana is NOTORIOUS for mistakenly issuing bills that are thousands or even tens of thousands too high. I would NEVERRRR use auto-pay for a variable utility. I don’t trust then to get it right or correct it timely.

      1. Bookworm*

        Do budget plans/averaging your bill not exist where you are? I’m hearing all sorts of weird stuff about small town utilities regarding payments.

        1. HBJ*

          I’m not that person, but yea, these exist in the US. I’m not sure what that has to do with the issue though. If this person did use it, you’d just push the issue off until the end of the year at settle-up time when suddenly they’d say you owe tons extra, and you’d have to deal with it then.

          We have the option for average/budget billing but choose not to use it.

      2. Garden Pidgeons*

        In the UK, at least, we have the direct debit guarantee to avoid that – if a payment is taken in error, you tell your bank, they refund it immediately. No need for anyone to rely on the utility company correcting it.

        1. Observer*

          Which is all good and fine. But it’s all too easy for it to happen and cause a cascade of problems before you know that it happened.

    6. HBJ*

      Well, direct debit and autopay aren’t the same thing. I have very few things set up for autopay, but I pay most of our bills online as one-time payments. I do think it’s legitimate to be a bit leery of autopay.

      Checks have stuck around because many places, especially small businesses but even huge businesses do it, charge a fee if you pay other than check or cash.

      In my experience, most house rentals aren’t set up for transfer. We transfer our current rent only because we are at the same bank as the landlord, so there’s no charge. At previous rentals, either check was the only option (private party rental – not with a management company), or the fee was very high. 3% sounds small but adds a lot when you’re talking about high dollar amounts. If your rent is $1,500 a month, that’s $540 you’re paying in fees each year. O.o

      1. Bookworm*

        Direct debit is what the UK at least calls it – what we refer to as auto pay in the US.

        I rent a condo from a private landlord. I pay him via Zelle from my bank’s online bill pay. Took me a while to get him to agree to it. Crazy that he didn’t want it before as we’re with the same bank. He now agrees he likes having his money immediately.

        1. Lexi Vipond*

          The UK has both direct debit, where you authorise another person to take a payment from you at certain times (but not necessarily the same amount each time – e.g. the amount of your month’s electricity bill), and standing orders, where you arrange to pay another person a set amount at certain times.

          I’m not sure which of those autopay is (or if it’s something else again!).

          1. HBJ*

            In the US, autopay would mean the first thing you said. I actually find it kind of funny and confusing that the UK would use auto(matic)pay(ment) for a onetime payment that you have to do each time – aka, it’s not automatic!

            Here, autopay is one form of a direct debit, but it’s not the only form.

      3. dapfloodle*

        Hmm, I am in the US and pay rent directly from my bank account. It’s a $1 fee each time and that’s way less than 3%, haha! I think there’s a 3% charge if I pay by credit, so I don’t do that! This is the first place I’ve lived where I haven’t paid via check, but its my 4th year living in this rental place.

        1. HBJ*

          Yea, that management company charged the same fee for paying online whether it was a transfer, debit card, credit card. Didn’t matter, 3%. I know bank transfers typically cost less, so it was very weird.

      4. anon24*

        Yes I pay pretty much all my bills directly out of my bank account (or if there’s no extra fees, charged to my credit card for the cash back and then pay it off every month) and anything coming out of my bank account is not on autopay. Not only do I not trust the companies to not fuck it up, but despite all my hard work, skipping meals and basic needs, and 70 hour work weeks, I’m still very much living paycheck to paycheck. If I authorize you to take money out of my account every month on the 15th, depending what date my biweekly paycheck gets deposited, that money might not actually be in there. So I’ll just manually pay my bills when I know the money is there.

      5. Filosofickle*

        Yeah, the California duplex I rented until 2 years ago had to be paid in cash or check. After two checks went missing in the mail I tried HARD to find a solution and avoid an hour trip to drop off checks, but my landlord was unwilling or unable to participate in Zelle/PayPal/Venmo and wire transfers were unrealistic. My downstairs neighbors didn’t have checks, they used money orders.

        1. Filosofickle*

          Random extra info: Buying a house ramped up my check usage after a decade of only using checks for rent — tree trimmer, fence builder, refrigerator repair, contractors, installers etc. Some will take cards, but they often charge extra for that and they’ve almost all expressed a strong preference cash or check. The mover, for instance, couldn’t give me an exact total until the job was completely finished (so I couldn’t have a cashiers check ready) and was going to charge me 3% to use a CC, and I certainly didn’t have 1500 in cash. So, I needed a personal check.

          1. acmx*

            Yup.

            I pay a couple services via check and my housecleaner more often then not. I’m happy to not create an online account that can be hacked lol

            I recently paid a utility by check because the captcha was glitching. (And typing this comment reminds me that the city was hacked earlier this year. Maybe I’ll continue to pay via check.)

    7. Texan In Exile*

      I worked for a major life insurance company that would accept only checks (or wire, I think). No Paypal, no Zelle, no anything 21st century.

      They were working on it, though, because there were enough young people in the Tech department to note that selling insurance to younger people was not going to work the way the middle-aged white male CEO with the stay at home wife and the personal driver (for that arduous 20-minute commute) thought it should work. (Or the VP of HR who was annoyed that people didn’t want to return to the office – “You’ll just have to do your laundry when you get home,” he snarked at a town hall.)(The company had just reported the highest profits ever in its 100 year+ history.)

    8. Clisby*

      I (US) still have paper checks, because every once in awhile I get a bill from someone who doesn’t offer any other way to pay. Mostly I do online banking – not autopay; I direct when the payments are made.)

      Once I read an article chiding parents for sending their kids off to college without teaching them to handle a checkbook. I asked my (now 28) daughter whether she had suffered from lack of knowledge about checks; she paused for a few seconds and said, “I’ve never written a check in my life.”

      I’m sure she could figure it out if she needed to; it’s not like writing a check is rocket science. I’m not sure she actually has any paper checks.

      1. Observer*

        Once I read an article chiding parents for sending their kids off to college without teaching them to handle a checkbook

        There was at least one very active thread here on AAM about this very subject. SOOO many people were “what is with these parents who don’t teach their kids basic life skills!?” And the all of the other people who were “What basic life skills? Depending on where you live and work, you might never need to write a check.”

        I was one of those people. I have a checkbook, and I have no idea where it is.

        Having said that, there is a huge difference between electronic payments and *auto*pay. I’m not doing the latter, especially not for a variable bill. Way too many potential issues.

        No, I’m not paranoid, just realistic. Life happens and so do mistakes.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        I pay for one off things like donations with paper checks, or things like magazine subscriptions. But that’s about the only thing I still use them for.

    9. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think part of it is because the EU has such better consumer protections than the US, so in the US you really have to protect yourself from criminality and negligence a lot more.

      1. Observer*

        It has nothing to do with that. There are actually some pretty good protections – depending on how you do it.

        The problem is that mistakes happen, and they can have all sorts of cascading effects. And autopay is one way to to trigger that cascade. Even if everyone fixes their part of the problem ASAP, and reacts perfectly, it can still be a huge headache.

        1. Zweisatz*

          You’re saying that very confidently. I have basically no worries of being screwed over by a company that way and if I discovered a discrepancy I woulf expect it to be ironed out within a month. But I never had issues.
          I’m in Germany.

          1. Observer*

            I have basically no worries of being screwed over by a company that way and if I discovered a discrepancy I woulf expect it to be ironed out within a month.

            It’s not a matter of being “screwed over”. Mistakes DO happen. Not often, but enough for *reasonable* people to worry about it.

            And a month can be *long* time to get this stuff sorted out, and include a lot of time on the phone / on chat / in email. Especially if you have a lot of stuff on auto-pay that gets messed up by the *first* error.

            The fact that *you* never had a mistake happen to you does not make it something that could not happen. The fact that any mistake would not cause other issues, so that a *whole month* is not a material amount of time to wait for a resolution is not so universal that everyone should – or can- depend on that speed of resolution.

    10. Checkmate*

      Many medical offices require payment at the time of services and some of these offer a discount of 5-10% if you pay by check instead of credit card. That’s the only time I write checks.

      Some of my online payments are sent to their recipients as checks from my bank – if they have never set up a vendor account with the bank, the bank has no way to transfer the funds. My current landlord (major company that bought out my previous landlord) does not have one set up at my major bank, so I pay my rent online and they get mailed a check. Note that the same landlord will not accept a check directly from me event though they insist on checks from the bank. Makes no sense. I also periodically run into medical offices that also get checks from the bank instead of direct transfers.

    11. Maestra*

      I remember living in Spain for a year in grad school and needing to open a bank account so that we could pay for the internet. That was a hassle because then I had the close the bank account before leaving the country and I still had to pay the last month’s bill on my credit card over the phone.

      I auto pay a lot of stuff, but on my credit card, not out of my bank account. I rarely write checks, but I use them to pay my town’s car tax. You can pay online, but it costs $10 extra to do so.

    12. Buni*

      The thing that blew my mind the first time I heard it was learning that in the US you…get your cheques back? Somehow?! For some reason?!

      Admittedly I haven’t written a personal cheque in a long while but every time I did I was waving that bit of paper goodbye….

      1. HBJ*

        No? I’m in the US and have never once gotten a check back. And I use a lot of checks compared to the average person – both because I operate a business, and lots of things in the business world still use checks, and because I always do charitable giving via check due to the fees.

      2. ReconcilingStatements*

        This used to be automatic but has gone out of fashion with the advent of online access to bank account info/online pictures of both sides of cashed checks. Before this, the only way you knew that a check was cashed and could see who signed it/their signature was by getting a copy of the checks back. Most people spent time reconciling their actual paper check register with the cashed checks returned in the mail to make sure everything agreed.

        For many years they were still available as an option but no longer sent automatically. At most banks you can still request a copy of a check if someone questions who cashed it.

        1. HBJ*

          For our business, I always reconcile checks with the paper statement. I don’t get paper statements because they charge for them, rather I print them out once I get the email notice that they’re available. I buy checks including the carbon copy. Then I cross reference the carbon copy with the statement. I do keep an eye on checks coming out throughout the month online, and yes, that picture of it is handy! But I always reconcile at the end of the month with the hard copy as well as sort of the “final” that isn’t going to change.

      3. Observer**

        For some reason?!

        That’s how you balance your checkbook, and figure out if some check has gone missing / has not been deposited. And occasionally discover that someone stole a check you sent (because you can see that the signature on the back is wrong).

        Yeah, I’m old. I remember the transition from getting the checks back as a routine thing to having the only the images that you have to go to the bank site for. And now, I use checks so rarely it doesn’t matter anymore.

    13. sunny*

      I’m in Canada, and one of the things I like is that you can email people money through the banks. I guess the US has apps for this? It’s how my daughter pays her rent, and the roommates all email each other money for the bills. As far as I know, there is no charge for this.
      As for cheques, 20 years ago my partner was a contractor working for an american company. The company always sent out paper cheques each month for reimbursement. Apparently, when the Swedish guy showed up at his bank with a cheque, the teller spent half an hour passing it around with the older ones showing the younger ones what a cheque was. Then they handed it back to him, and told him to get paid a more modern way.

      1. BanksGottaBank*

        When I do 1099 contracts I nearly always get paid by check, especially when they have me send them monthly invoices, Automatic deposits are for employees. We may not use them very often, but it would be unheard of for a bank here to refuse to take a check. They can put a hold on the money until the check clears, but they have to accept the deposit.

      2. CompaniesUseChecks*

        My current employer doesn’t issue corporate credit cards – they’re considered too risky by our financial auditors (we’re a non-profit so we need to have formal financial oversight once a year) and all of our expense reimbursements are by check. It’s beyond annoying, but I still have to put everything on my personal card and wait for a check in the mail which I then need to take to the bank to deposit (the checks don’t show up clearly enough in the app to be deposited that way; another argument for getting the plainest, most bland checks you can find if you do still need to write checks).

        1. Observer**

          We’re a non-profit too, with similar restrictions on CC payments, although we do have a single card to be used centrally. But a lot of our auditors don’t like reimbursements either, as they consider that a fiscal risk as well. And my boss (and to be fair, a lot of our fiscal decision makers) doesn’t like reimbursements because he doesn’t like the idea that people need to finance the organization’s expenses. So we try very, very hard to avoid it.

          I don’t know what the procedure is currently, because I haven’t had to deal with a reimbursement in years, but in the past, reimbursements were run on the same schedule / alongside payroll (ie every 2 weeks). If I recall correctly, the reimbursements were in your paycheck, and the amount showed up in the paystub. So no extra trip to the bank.

          the checks don’t show up clearly enough in the app to be deposited that way

          That’s kind of weird. What on earth are they putting on those checks?

          1. CompaniesUseChecks*

            we have one central card controlled and only useable by our finance person for direct business expenses. Our ED doesn’t even have one and needs to get reimbursed himself.

            I have had to put conference fees, a laptop, and other >$1k expenses on my personal card then wait to get reimbursed. It’s a real PITA.

            There’s a background pattern on the check that apparently interferes. Also a PITA.

            Do you just not incur any expenses? I’ve had a few jobs where it was very, very rare for non-managers but this isn’t one of them.

    14. Rosyglasses*

      My mom is pre boomer gen and refuses to do any online shopping but will pay over the phone with her credit card. I’m an elder millennial and I will say that I will not do any recurring charges on my debit card because giving access to my bank account is not safeguarded the way autopay off a credit card is.

    15. Rara Avis*

      I’m the treasurer of a student-related nonprofit, and we do everything by check. No debit card on the account or credit card. Dues come in mostly by check. We did set up Paypal a few years back, but we take a financial hit with the fees, and most schools won’t use it. They prefer checks. Maybe they’d do ACH, but figuring out how to set that up is beyond the scope of a volunteer treasurer with no financial background doing this on top of a full-time job. I have bill pay online for my personal account, but it wouldn’t be free in the nonprofit account because usually you have to have direct deposit to access various free services.

    16. Hroethvitnir*

      I thought it was absolutely wild people still got pay cheques in physical form in the US decades ago, let alone now.

      There are uses for cheques here (Aotearoa), but they’re limited and they’re way more expensive than they’re worth for most people. I did have a chequebook as a child in the 80s-90s, and have done various retail so I know how to use them!

      There are downsides to cashless societies (it was very frustrating when I couldn’t catch a bus to the airport in Stockholm without a relevant network card), but I am more than happy with 99.99% electronic transactions.

      I generally don’t use direct debit since I’m shite at paying attention so would potentially miss mistakes, but it really is incredibly rare. I don’t think I know anyone who has ever been affected – the other week I got an accidental double refund from a hotel they had to get permission to take back.

      Automatic payment for a standardised bill (so no access to your account) or just manual transfer when due is very common.

    17. Alex*

      My landlord will only take a check (I’m in the US). No direct deposit or anything like that. I do have my bank set up to automatically send them a check every month, so for ME it is autopay, but they still receive a paper check.

      My checkbook still has the address I moved out of in 2013, because I haven’t had to buy checks since then, as I use so few. I’m not a person who is afraid of autopay and I have all my bills paid automatically. I’m terrible at remembering what day it is so I would definitely forget to pay them.

      1. Observer**

        That’s a different set up. And it can make a lot of sense for many things. It’s a lot less susceptible to error or malfeasance.

      2. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

        I own a checkbook again for the first time since 2015 for a similar reason. My apartment complex charges an extra $25 to pay online, and I’m not in the mood to go get a money order / cashier’s check every month like I did for the last property that did this, so checks it is.
        That was an unpleasant surprise after being able to pay rent online for 6-7 years.

    18. Aussie*

      I’m in Australia and the last time I used a cheque was a decade ago to pay for the bond on my rental. The only reason I had to use a cheque was because at the time I had a daily bank transfer limit of $1000 so that a scammer could never empty my account. Everyone was telling me I was being ridiculous and I should just increase my transfer limit – including the bank teller.

      All bills are direct debit or manual transfer here, and everyone just uses paywave for regular transactions. Nobody bothers to insert the chip on the card anymore. In fact, many people just use their phone or their watch, including my Grandfather who is 86 years old with 9 great-grandkids! It’s very normal. I saw a guy pay for coffee with a tablet once. It looked a bit ridiculous but it worked just fine and the barista didn’t blink. I’ve never heard of anybody having a single problem other than “Ugh my phone is flat, now I have to go and get my wallet from the car.”

      The only time normal people ever use cash is to pay tradies, because it costs the same for a cashie but your sparkie’ll swing ’round after knock off instead of having to wait a week ’cause the boss has ’em all booked solid, mate. If you see someone buying groceries with cash in Australia, odds are they’re either a tradie or married to one. Or a German tourist. Drug dealers launder cash elsewhere in larger amounts at once. Even little market stalls and charity fund-raising tables use Squares now. Everything is digital. Heaven help Australians during the next Carrington event.

    19. londonedit*

      I think I got my last chequebook in 2009 (I’m in the UK) and there are still cheques in it. Haven’t written one for years and years now.

      Pretty much everything here is direct debit/standing order/bank transfer. My salary is paid directly into my bank account and all my bills (rent, utilities) are paid by standing order so they come out on the same day each month. Things like car insurance I don’t have on a standing order/direct debit because you want to shop around for the best price every year, but once I’ve done that I buy the policy online. You can either just make one payment or set up a monthly direct debit (but that’s usually more expensive than paying in one go). I don’t think there’s anything that I wouldn’t use direct debit/standing orders for! Can’t imagine writing a cheque for a bill – and I can’t remember the last time I did so. Standing orders have been a thing since way before online banking – you used to fill in a paper form to authorise the charge, but then it’d be a regular payment that would come straight out of your bank.

  42. Prawo Jazdy*

    Any opinions the Shakespeare movie Anonymous (2011)? I never saw it when it originally came out because I was influenced by the critics and my friends at the time, all of whom considered it an obviously bad movie with a deeply offensive premise.

    However I finally saw it just now and was surprised to find it extremely entertaining and well-made in every respect – and it didn’t bother me at all that the story was probably baloney, I still admired its boldness and its deep dive into the Elizabethan world. Anyone else think this was an overlooked gem?

  43. AGD*

    I just wanted to apologize for responding to a work question on the weekend open thread yesterday and creating more off-limits stuff for Alison to have to clean up manually. The reason, frankly, is that my own work-life balance is so bad that I often don’t notice when there are incursions of my job into my weekends. I love the work (on a college campus, mostly doing student advising), but I spend most Sundays chipping away at it, and some Saturdays as well; whenever I try to put up a boundary and cordon off some time for not-working, it ends up crumbling. I already knew that this lopsidedness was causing problems for me, but now I know that it might also affect other people negatively, such as yesterday when I snapped back into work-mode here and gave someone academia-related advice without even realizing that it wasn’t called for. I’m going to monitor myself extra carefully on the weekend threads in the near future in the hope of ensuring that I don’t do it again.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Please don’t feel bad on my account AT ALL. It’s been an ongoing problem of people doing that and yesterday just happened to be the day I finally addressed it. Definitely not targeted at you in particular! (I mean, I fully support you having work/life boundaries, but I just don’t want you to feel bad about the comment yesterday.)

      1. David Rose*

        I’m asking for a demotion soon. I don’t think I’m a good manager, and I have good reason to think that (feedback from my team). My boss was already talking to me about shifting me into an open role and I’m going to tell her I’m taking her up on it. I just wanted to tell someone I guess.

        2. Hroethvitnir*

          Good luck! That sounds super hard, but hopefully the shift will bring you back to a role you find rewarding.

          More people recognising they’re not good managers would be a great benefit to society (but tricky if it’s the only way to make comfortable money, sigh).

  44. AnonyOne*

    A woman in the UK recently won a pay equality case (but her employer – Next- is appealing) – she works on a retail shop floor and brought the case on the basis that warehouse workers and shop floor workers do similar levels of work but the warehouse staff are paid more and the only difference is that the shop floor staff are primarily female and the warehouse staff are primarily male.
    They compared the roles and considered things like people on the shop floor needing to engage in customer management while people in the warehouse do more heavy lifting (the shop role also has some physical lifting) and found that on balance the role requirements were similar.
    I admit I do not have direct experience in either role, but this does sound like one of those situations where some traditionally female roles are systematically paid less than some traditionally male roles. My initial reaction based on reading news coverage is that this seems like a positive step forward.
    I thought it raised interesting questions and wondered what others’ reactions are – good/bad/not clear? (obviously ideally this would lead to better retail pay not lower pay for the warehouse roles).

    2. Ellis Bell*

      I’m actually fascinated at what the outcome is going to be, because Next is a bit unique as having both a shop floor presence and a big warehouse for deliveries. Other fashion retailers won’t have to make the same adjustments to the same extent imo. The supermarket staff however, will.

    3. Texan In Exile*

      Hard physical labor seems to be considered more worthy than hard emotional labor. Mr T and I have argued about this. He points out that he cuts the grass and repairs the car, which balances my asking people for favors – like asking our new neighbor to shovel the sidewalk if it snows when we are out of town.

      I would a million times rather cut the grass than cultivate the relationship necessary to ask someone to do me a favor.

      And having worked retail, both in high school at Woolco and then at Macy’s after I was laid off from a corporate job, oh man give me physical labor rather than dealing with customers.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        Hard physical work has a lot shorter lifespan though. You are(hopefully) not going to be unloading boxes at the age of 60, while doing a desk job at the same age is perfectly normal.
        Plus, there is hard labor and hard skillet labor. I can live without Netflix. I cannot live without HVAC or plumbing or electricity. I am also not capable of fixing my car or the roof.

        1. Nicosloanica*

          Yes I suppose it would be possible to say a manual labor job is something like a job as an athlete or dancer, and has to pay more since there’s fewer years you’ll be able to do it, and your career could end at any moment due to unexpected injury. Not sure if I accept this as the real reason or not.

        2. Lenora Rose*

          I would strongly hope that retirees are also not doing standing and fetching/carrying retail shop floor jobs (the actual comparison in this specific case), as while it’s slightly less physically strenuous than the warehouse might be it’s not exactly restful work.

    4. HowToDecide*

      This is so interesting – I thought you had to compare the same jobs and look at the other factors that can legitimately lead to pay differences (experience, education, etc). These jobs are not at all similar and I’m not sure why they’re supposed to be treated as largely equivalent for pay purposes. Where do you draw the line? How dissimilar is too dissimilar? It seems so arbitrary and confusing since the jobs have so little in common.

    5. M2*

      This is interesting. I had a boyfriend in college who worked both on the floor of a retail establishment and later in a warehouse of the same company and he said the warehouse was a lot harder/potentially more dangerous. Granted this was now 15+ years ago (yikes)

  45. Sitting Pretty*

    A neighbor just kindly offered up a jar of their home-canned tomatoes. This led to a fun discussion among a group of us outside about whether or not garlic and onions should be a given in canned tomatoes (most people had pretty strong feelings that they should!)

    This got us wondering: Are there any decent recipes that call for canned tomatoes that don’t also include onions and garlic? I mean, I understand why someone might want to use their own fresh herbs, onions, and garlic in a sauce or soup. But besides that, how might one use a canned tomato entirely unhitched from onions and garlic?

    1. Wren*

      Marcella Hazan’s tomato sauce and every Indian recipe I’ve made using canned tomatoes (like tikka masala and butter chicken) doesn’t use tomatoes with onions are garlic. I’m not sure what I’d use tomatoes with onions and garlic for.

      1. Ginger Cat Lady*

        I mostly use canned tomatoes to make soups. With lots of onion & garlic. Though I don’t include them when I am canning tomatoes from my garden, because I do not know if they might lower the acidity to an unsafe level. So I’ll just keep sauteeing onions and garlic and celery & carrots before adding the canned tomatoes and other soup ingredients and seasonings.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        Spaghetti sauce, personally. But yeah, that would affect how I could use said tomatoes in recipes, for sure. I would probably prefer plain tomatoes rather than have adjust proportions for what I was making.

    2. dapfloodle*

      I’ve never heard of onions and garlic being included in home-canned tomatoes (and my mom definitely canned tomatoes… she also made/canned salsa, but that includes more than just onions and garlic), though I guess I’ve seen something similar at the store. There are plenty of recipes just calling for plain canned tomatoes. Some of them include onions and garlic and some don’t, but they’d call for adding those ingredients separately, not using a can including all 3 things. I know Budget Bytes has many recipes calling for canned tomatoes, so you could start there to find some I suppose.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        When I need canned tomatoes with additional stuff in them, it’s because I’m using a recipe calling for that specific kind/brand of tomatoes with stuff in them. I certainly wouldn’t just toss them into something willy nilly.

    3. Not A Manager*

      I use store-bought canned tomatoes a lot, and I would never buy (and have never seen) ones that include garlic and onions in the can. I want to add my own fresh ingredients in the amounts that I choose. I don’t even like it when they include one big basil leaf in the can, but sometimes that’s unavoidable.

    4. Jean (just Jean)*

      I haven’t entirely answered this question for myself but I may do so someday because I can no longer digest onion and garlic. That’s right, my diet is completely free of onion, garlic, and pepper.
      So far my thoughts for canned tomatoes include the use of browned mushroom and celery and ample additions of chopped parsley and assorted green herbs (meaning basil, oregano, and dill).

      1. ThatOtherClare*

        My stomach disagrees with onion in greater than homeopathic quantities (luckily I’m OK with garlic, I don’t envy you!) so add me as another person on team ‘every recipe’.

  46. David Rose*

    um, reposting as a new thread like it was supposed to be, sorry. I’m asking for a demotion (sort of – giving up management, but same pay) soon. I don’t think I’m a good manager, and I have good reason to think that (feedback from my team). My boss was already talking to me about shifting me into an open role and I’m going to tell her I’m taking her up on it. I just wanted to tell someone I guess. Advice on language for the conversation, and on communicating this to my team, appreciated, but so is just good thoughts.

    1. 1 Non Blonde*

      I think you could say that you’ve come to realize that you are not good in a management position at this stage of your career, so you are shifting into a lower role without management responsibilities. this could be a good phrasing for both your team and your boss.

    2. Anono-me*

      Can you push back on the optics that this is a demotion, both in your mind and in the company? It sounds like a lateral move to me.

      Also, are you someone who is not a good manager or are you someone who is good at their profession and was promoted out of your expertise into management without any training?

      If you want to be a manager, step away now (before you burn bigger bridges) get managment training and then ask to take on management responsibilities incrementally.

      If you love being an __professional, ask your boss (or someone else you think might be receptive) about the company looking at a dual carreer ladder
      One for professionals who want to stay in their profession and one for professionals who want go into management. But for this to work, Senior Executive professionals need to be paid, titled and respected commiserate to their management peers. And management is not something that people should be expected to pick up on the job. It is a skill that can and should be taught.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      “I’ve come to realize I just don’t like managing, and I’d rather be back in a (creative? production? contributor?) role.”

  47. 1 Non Blonde*

    I am a female and I work as a project manager, overseeing design and construction projects, which means, especially during construction, I am around a lot of men. How much “grabbing” and “rearranging” of their private parts is too much? In the past, I’ve thought it polite to pretend to not notice, but I have one contractor who constantly does it. It’s annoying, but also I have never—even once—needed to itch myself so badly that I do it in front of others.

    Am I supposed to put up with this because it’s a “need” for men?

      1. 1 Non Blonde*

        Do you have thoughts on what to say in these instances? Or report it to someone higher up than me?

    2. Generic Name*

      I am married to a man and have a son. We’ve had some pretty frank discussions about private-adjusting, and even my teenage son knows that it’s rude to do it in public, and if it’s causing true discomfort, to excuse himself and go to the restroom to fix the problem. If you want to say something in the moment, you could say, “do you need some privacy for that?” But honestly, I’d go to HR.
      -signed, a woman in the construction industry

    3. Mutually supportive*

      Also a woman in construction, often working on construction sites. Sorry I don’t have any advice, I seem to have been lucky enough to avoid this so far, but know that I would also find this uncomfortable and wouldn’t be sure how to address it. It’s definitely not normal behaviour.

    4. Morning Reader*

      Put an itch cream in his locker? Ask another man who doesn’t do this to ask the man who does what’s up with that? Laugh? Stare with feigned interest at the area whenever he does it, maybe take a picture? Say, “omg, are you grabbing yourself again? I don’t know how you men walk around with those things getting in the way all the time. You got crabs or something?” Or, when taking the picture, say, “my sister didn’t believe me when I said I work with grown men who grab their private parts constantly. I need to document. She’s gonna freak when she sees this.”

      /s Probably none of that because it would be rude or harassing. Just HR and good luck.

    5. acmx*

      I don’t work in construction but my industry is male dominated and I don’t know that I’ve experienced this at work. Sorry they’re doing it around you.

    7. goddessoftransitory*

      Oh HELL no you are not “supposed” to put up with this and that delightful gentleman knows it. If he’s that tortured in his private areas he needs to get to the doctor.

    8. ThatOtherClare*

      It’s not necessary. Irrespective of gender, in the rare event of something getting suddenly caught in an undergarment and causing pain, a person can make an excuse to quickly face the other way for a moment to readjust the offending clothing, be it underpants or a bra. “Sorry to interrupt, excuse me for one second” is standard English. Everybody has been pinched or had an itchy sweat rash at some point in their life, most of us don’t turn the people around us into unwilling spectators as we deal with it. There’s no biological reason a person can’t be discreet.

      Signed, a fellow woman in a male dominated career.

    9. Grossed out worker*

      Sadly, two people in my management do this. It has ranged from obvious (front of pants), to trying to hide (in pocket), or disgusting (inside the pants). They also pick their noses, and put feet on their tables. :/

      I’m a guy and still.

  48. Banana Pyjamas*

    Small rant.

    I’m going back to school. I assumed the college would be closed for Labor Day, but then this morning I received an email telling me my books are ready for pick up today. So I was pleasantly surprised, as this was the first positive interaction with the college.

    Well I went to pick up, and the satellite campus is in a building for a local recreation group. There’s no signage for the college at the ingress. The first time I drove straight past. The second time I found a sign at the back of the lot on the other side of the building only because Google said the school was 200 feet away. So I go to the main entrance where the signage says the bookstore is. There’s a sign on the door saying to use the east entrance after 2:20. I was at the east entrance, I even checked a map. They clearly meant the other entrance, so I went to the west entrance which was also locked, even though the building is supposed to be open until 4:00.

    EVERY STINKING INTERACTION WITH THE SCHOOL HAS BEEN EXACTLY THIS CHAOTIC AND DISORGANIZED.

    One of the classes I’m enrolled in isn’t showing on Canvas, but it’s an online class, so I need Canvas to access it. I’ll reach out tomorrow for that.

    I’m definitely transferring in the spring.

    2. Cheeruson*

      So sorry that you had to deal with this. Sounds surprisingly like the local college I went back to as an adult, several years of confusion and inept administrators. Culminating with being unable to pick up my Masters diploma, sitting right there in the drawer, because my name wasn’t on the list of graduates and how could they cross off my name if it wasn’t there? Solved by a lovely little student worker who waited until the other person went for help, wrote my name on the list, crossed it off, and handed me my diploma.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Oh my goodness! I’m struggling to process that level of ineptitude. I’m glad you were able to get your diploma in spite of it.

  49. Anon for this*

    Just a little something positive: I co-manage a team, and my fellow team lead and I recently hired someone who had their first day today. There were some snafus that were out of everyone’s control (think weird weather phenomenon leading to traffic issues), but she was pleasant and professional communicating about it, and still managed to do all her scheduled onboarding sessions. So several reasons to be optimistic about what’s to come!

  50. nervy grad*

    Hi all, I’m graduating from grad school and looking for my first “big kid” job in an adjacent but unrelated field as my degree. Any words of wisdom about keeping the faith through what is shaping up to be a rough application process? I’ve never done this before!

    1. Chossy*

      It took me 14 months from graduating till I started in a full time job using my graduate degree in the new field (though those last 6 months were the hiring process for the job I ended up getting, which is unusually long). My regret was not starting regular, part-time work and generally establishing a “job search life” routine sooner. I optimistically imagined the job search phase of life would take a few months at most, so I put off establishing a life for myself—didn’t make new friends (I could move any day now!, I thought—lol), or pursue usual hobbies, or keep learning. I eventually started a temporary job in a related line of work, and incredibly had more time and energy to devote to job applications then vs. when I had all day every day to devote to it. I needed structure! (Well, and money!) Here’s hoping you got a grad degree in a field with higher demand and less competition! But if it takes a while, don’t be afraid to embrace that life and really live it, not just wait for the new life to start. You can do that. The rest is luck. Good luck!

  51. Junebug*

    How does everyone deal with super annoying coworkers in an open office besides trying to ignore them or wearing headphones?

    1. ThatOtherClare*

      Taking my laptop to other spaces “for a change of scenery” or to the conference room “to focus” helped a bit, but ultimately I intentionally shifted roles so that I would get reassigned to a desk somewhere else. Telling myself not to imagine stabbing them in the eye with an orange certainly didn’t help.

  52. acmx*

    Reward credit cards, which one(s) do you have? Do you pay an annual fee?

    I’m thinking of a separate card for my work travel so I’m starting research on a new card (and I’m stuck in my vehicle waiting for rain to let up lol)

    1. Rick Tq*

      USAA and the Costco Citibank Visa. No fee for the USAA and we earn enough credit dollars between buying groceries and gas at Costco the card pays for the Executive membership itself.

    2. Filosofickle*

      I have a very old Capital One card that earns me modest rewards, with no fee. I looked around recently and the Chase Freedom and Wells Fargo Active Cash had about the best setup for my needs.

      Personally I’m not great at planning/tracking and I don’t travel a lot so a fee-based card isn’t ideal for me — they have better deals and bigger rewards, but to really benefit you have to stack rewards programs and work the system. That’s not something my brain is into and the key to my financial success is keeping things simple :)

      1. acmx*

        My main card is a travel card and I’m not sure it’s beneficial anymore. My personal international travel has slowed down :-( and my card is partnered with Booking now and I’m not sure it’s worth it.

        Cash back is probably the way to go.

    3. Decidedly Me*

      I have a cash back card from Bank of America, which has no fee. I also have a Chase Sapphire Reserved card, which is a travel card with a pretty high fee. The benefits included make the fee worth it to me and it’s my main card. There’s a version with a lower fee, too.

    4. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      I have a Chase Sapphire preferred because I get decent rewards and I think the fee is $95. The rewards can vary on how I use them from a redemption perspective. It’s good for travel and international travel as well. If you live in an airline hub city, consider the airline card for the amount of rewards you’ll get just for signing up.

  53. Pamela S*

    I am addicted to Surprise Me! I love reading posts from 5/10+ years ago, noting the excellent advice in the comments, while hoping that things got much better for the folks who wrote in.

    The downside? Cliff hangers! For example – whatever happened to Lily the Receptionist from 2014 who was being targeted by Ms Attorney for having the audacity to speak to her husband at a Christmas party? Did she stick it out? Did she move on to bigger and better things? Is she happy?

    1. Sitting Pretty*

      One of the many things I love about AAM is that Alison does calls for updates thought the year, and we do hear back from a handful of folks. It’s funny how often the update is, “Y’all, I took your advice and got out.”

      Getting invested in the LWs and really wanting them to be ok, and knowing that sometimes we’ll just never find out? The struggle is real!

  54. Tess McGill*

    Totally random: Was scrolling through FB and watching TikTok videos that popped up when I watched a guy named Ben Askins (British) read aloud the 2017 letter to AAM about the co-worker leaving an envelope at the gravesite of an employee’s deceased relative. That story is legend among faithful AAM readers and I recognized it right away.

  55. Ignatius*

    Frustrated, not really asking for advice because there’s too much backstory to anonymity.

    Managing someone who 99.8% of the time makes good decisions. The problem is the other 0.2 percent are not huge, but memorable to everyone but her. She wants to make executive, and she might do it, but her life seems like a series of sitcom episodes. She is completely clueless about what these things do, and they are individually minor enough that if I recognize them at all, I feel like I’m part of the problem.

    Examples :
    * We had a crisis at work, which was partly a crisis only because she mishandled it. Her grand boss and great grand boss cancelled their travel arrangements and were working until 7 every night for two weeks. That happened to be the same time she picked up a hobby that was incredibly immature (and no, I won’t say what, but the furries at the office were surprised) with one of the subordinates who started the issue.
    * She decided long hair made her look young, so she adopted a Dora hair cut to look older. She uses a blue day pack.
    * Given a chance to speak to senior executives, the story she told about her determination was how hard she worked for concert tickets, including putting customer work on hold while she was taking the call. I get it, I paid through the nose for aftermarket tickets to one of the same concerts, but that turned into a perception that she doesn’t care about her job as much as those concerts.

    I can’t really say much more, just frustrated because she’s amazing and I can see her opportunities slip away. There’s worse stuff, but it’s a lot easier to deal with and provide feedback on, and ironically less likely to be career impacting than being known as blonde Dora by people two levels above me

    1. mreasy*

      The concert tickets example is something you can coach on… I can’t understand the first situation but probably worth mentioning. But I don’t know if everyone is going to make the Dora connection unless they all have kids of a specific age who watch. A bob plus a blue backpack don’t mean anything to me e.g.

    2. Generic Name*

      So a colleague has cut her hair into a chin-length bob with bangs and unrelatedly uses a blue laptop backpack, and people several levels above her are calling her names based on a preschool cartoon? My friend, the problem is not your colleague.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        I honestly misinterpreting that as her dying her hair blue and even then I was wondering what the issue was unless she did the dye job in the office. There is nothing at all odd about having short hair and a blue backpack. I wouldn’t even associate that with Dora, especially not if she’s blonde.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Given a chance to speak to senior executives, the story she told about her determination was how hard she worked for concert tickets, including putting customer work on hold while she was taking the call.

      Oh nooooooo…

  56. anon4this*

    On here to vent a bit.

    My spouse is an administrator in higher ed. They have been trying to get another role (in HE or other sectors) now for almost a year, but hasn’t been successful. They love the university and loved the work previously, but the last few years have been rough with a newish boss (think Dean/Provost/SVP/President-level) who is their direct manager.

    This person has been in the role a couple years and it has created a toxic work environment and mayhem. It seems like a roller coaster or ping pong. I see my spouse work insane hours, and now have mental and physical health issues because even if they are off, they might get a million emails, (occasionally mean), calls or texts from the boss, on the work or personal cell. If you don’t answer, goodness help you because you will hear about it later. Some people have taken FMLA in the last year due imo to this boss.

    Many people at my spouse’s level have left or are trying to GTHO, but most students LOVE this person. My spouse is diplomatic so never says anything negative in public and always gives their boss the benefit of the doubt with me, but it is so frustrating.

    I don’t want to get into too many details, but the person constantly changes their mind, is demeaning, sends messages at all hours and expects a response at all times, makes people do one thing and when it is done and complete then wants something different, allegedly overspent by a lot, etc, etc, etc.

    My spouse received countless communication this weekend from this person. I told my spouse to turn everything off, but they knew if they didn’t answer it they would get it back at the office. This is not a one-time thing, it happens all the time to all administrators this person manages and to the assistants (who also all allegedly are trying to leave). My spouse was up late last night working and now is again working. They had gotten a hold of better work life balance this year, but now their boss is back at it.

    HR knows, but to my knowledge no one has done anything because they don’t want the press and just want the boss to work out the years on their contract then go back to teaching.

    I need to vent to someone. We have mutual friends who all work at this university, so I cant vent to them, because I don’t want my spouse’s job on the line. My spouse is very well respected and known in what they do, so I also pretend like everything is fine where we live because you never know who is connected to the university.

    My spouse has been applying for roles elsewhere, but that means we might have to move. We have kids in school, so it isn’t ideal, but this status quo can’t go on anymore. It is hard to apply, interview, and work FT and travel for work while also being there for your kids. I try and watch the kids extra so they have time to apply, talk to head hunters, and network for roles, but they miss spending time with us. They have tried taking sick or vacation days but for many of them have been called back into the office! My spouse pushed back every time and finally was told that they (finally) did not have to cancel another vacation to come in for some random meeting. My spouse is very stressed.

    They feel like they can’t even really push back because a few of the roles have stated that they will do extra back-door references and my spouse is certain they will contact their boss.

    Anyone been in a similar situation? How do I help my spouse? Why does this happen where universities hire people who cannot do the job/treat staff horribly/its pushed under the rug?

    1. Jean (just Jean)*

      You and your spouse have all my good wishes for getting out of this miserable situation as soon and as well as possible. I did notice that the boss is in their current position for a limited time. How many years remain before they return to teaching? Is it possible that your spouse and a few colleagues could present a united front to HR? I’m glad that your spouse was able to keep pushing back on requests to cancel vacation. It might help if your spouse continues to resist other unreasonable requests. The boss sounds like a bully; sometimes bullies can be faced down. It’s not easy and it’s not fair, but it’s worse to live in perpetual torment.

    1. Katie Impact*

      I drove past a store the other day that specialized in antique audio equipment. That’s the kind of thing I think of when I think of a niche industry: working with a product or service used by a small number of people, requiring skills that aren’t always easily transferrable to other fields.

    2. As anonymous as possible*

      While physical security consultants are technically not niche, physical security testers are very rare. Especially those with high enough security clearances and have the skills to pull them off.

      Or printing the paper for US currency.

    3. Nightengale*

      I don’t know if you’d count it as an industry because it is in healthcare, but there are 757 other doctors in my field in the US so I feel pretty comfortable calling us niche. It’s a subspecialty of pediatrics.

    5. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      I feel like sewing machine repair, vacuum repair, and alterations (outside a retail store that does them) are niche, but I tend to feel that way about anything my mother would have to drive an hour to a larger city to obtain.

  58. Chirpy*

    There is a particular state agency I’d love to work for, but the open positions are 1. something that would be a stretch but *maybe* doable, with excellent benefits and triple what I currently make, but they’re probably looking for someone much more senior than me (I have a tiny bit of related experience but not great) and requires 3 professional references (which I don’t have, my best one for this job specifically died, my other jobs have been completely unrelated).

    or, job 2. limited term, no benefits, I am very well qualified but this job would be a $3/hr CUT in pay from what I make in retail, so not in any way a living wage for this area, and therefore not at all feasible for me.

    This seems to be how my job search goes, no matter which field I try.

    1. Lions & Tigers & Bears, Oh My!*

      Hi – you posted very late in the thread so others might not see this. Do post it again this coming Friday on the work thread too!

      In the meantime — sounds frustrating. But apply to the state job !! You really really never know. It may be you can’t get past the initial screening because of the reference thing, but it’s worth a try. Write a really really great cover letter — look in AAM’s archives for how. In fact that’s a good thing to do for all the jobs, even though it’s a lot of work. I have had jobs in the past that on paper I was much less qualified for than other applicants, but something in my cover letter spoke to the hiring person’s own experience or thoughts or whatever, and that got me the initial interview, and then I got the job because even if on paper I was less qualified, we clicked or I had other experience that showed up better in an interview than on paper. Or it became apparent I could learn the work even though I had less experience. This happened to me more than once. With a state job even a fantastic cover letter might not work if there’s a person (or system) who’s doing the initial screen of applications and only looking for specific things like three references….but again, you never know. And there are going to be other people who don’t have three references! So the hiring people may relax that requirement after they see that. I encourage you to apply to that and other “stretch” jobs. And best best best of luck to you, job hunting is hard.

      1. Chirpy*

        Thanks. I saw the listing too late last night to really work on it, but it kind of looks like every job on the state board is a form to fill out that you can’t leave things blank, so I’m not terribly hopeful I can get past the automated screening.

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