my employee is a great worker but she’s quiet and aloof

by Alison Green on September 11, 2024

A reader writes:

A staff member I manage, Marianne, is very good at her job. She’s easy to manage in that she’s on top of her work, understands the organization, and takes constructive criticism very well. She’s also the most aloof person I’ve ever met.

Though she’s been part of our small team for years before I started, people barely know her. She doesn’t speak up, and in a recent all-day retreat said literally not one word. In meetings when something comes up that is clearly appropriate for her to weigh in on, I have to specifically ask her to comment. We know almost nothing about her personal life and didn’t know she was even dating someone until we randomly found out she got married. She never attends non-mandatory work events like staff parties. She recently asked us not to celebrate her birthday as we do the rest of the team.

I’m torn because it’s not Marianne’s job to be open with us about her life, but also it’s so out of touch with the culture here, and others in the organization, including my boss, mention it. I try to do everything I can to make her feel comfortable and give her opportunities to share without pressuring her. I make a point to ask about her weekends, if there’s anything she needs to be able to do her job better or feel more comfortable, and I’ve coached her about what she should be speaking up about in meetings. I share with her a bit about my life, but not too much so I don’t make her uncomfortable. I try to be up-front without prying, so when it was noticeable that she was taking a lot of sick days I told her I noticed, I’m glad she is using her days, and asked if there was anything she needed and offered support. If anything, she’s become more aloof.

The one time she had a family emergency and came to me crying, I thought I handled it well – gave her the time she needed without question, referred her to our EAP (which she later mentioned she utilized), and asked only once or twice how her family was doing after giving her time to deal.

Can I be doing anything else to encourage Marianne to open up and be more a part of the team? Should I even be trying? I don’t want to change her entire personality, but I do want her to feel connected, be more appreciated by others for her mostly behind-the-scenes work, and for she and I to have a good relationship.

Nah, leave Marianne alone. This is how she is!

Maybe she’s shy, maybe she’s consumed with things in her personal life and doesn’t have the bandwidth to connect socially at work, maybe she’s just someone with unusually high boundaries around her personal life.

I’m guessing shy is at least a part of it, since she doesn’t speak up at meetings without encouragement.

Regardless of what’s behind it, it’s okay that she’s this way! It’s not your job to push her to change. People on teams are allowed to have a whole variety of work and socialization styles. In fact, teams are often stronger when everyone isn’t the same.

Marianne is good at her job, on top of her work, understands the organization, and takes constructive criticism well. Take the win!

You were right to initially look for ways to make her feel more comfortable and to try to create opportunities to connect on a more personal level. Some people respond well to those efforts and will come out of their shells in response, and will be happier for it. But some people will feel pressured by it, especially if it continues despite their signals that they prefer you stop. At this point, you should respect her signals.

I hear you on this being out of sync with your workplace’s culture, but that doesn’t mean it’s something that needs to be fixed. Some things that are culturally out of sync do need to be addressed, like if your culture was very fast-paced and she operated with no sense of urgency, or if your culture put a premium on customer service and she was brusque or unhelpful to clients. But those would be problems with her work. What you’ve described is not.

If other people mention that Marianne seems closed off, model the right response back to them: “yep, she’s just quieter, but she does great work and I’m happy to have her on the team.” Don’t let them convince you it’s a problem; to the contrary, indicate by your response that it’s not.

I know, too, that you’re concerned about Marianne being happy there. You want her to feel connected and like part of the team. But not everyone needs or wants those things to be satisfied at work. You’ve created a bunch of opportunities for those things in the past, and she’s not grabbing at them. It’s reasonable to conclude she doesn’t prefer to work that way. We don’t need to understand why; we just need to respect that it’s the case.

If anything, she may feel more connected to the work and appreciated for who she is if she doesn’t feel like she’s constantly being pushed to be someone she’s not.

Respect her differences, value her for the good worker she is, and let the rest go.

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  2. DrSalty*

    I would focus on continuing to encourage her to speak up in meetings relevant to her work and making sure she feels comfortable and equipped to contribute in that way when necessary.

    1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I am commenting to add this. You can coach her on participating in meetings. If this is important to you that she speaks up – for her job, not to seem less aloof – then have a conversation. Explain that as a stakeholder or contributor she has to offer information about X, Y and Z.
      “When the teapot painter discusses the lid painting schedule, please speak in the moment about X (or whatever you prompt her to do.) I typically prompt you, but I want you to jump in yourself.”
      That’s about all you need to do.

      1. Green great dragon*

        Yes, the meetings part is a work issue. If LW isn’t in a meeting, does she not speak up when she really should?

        If shyness is at the root of both the meetings and the ‘aloofness’ issue then addressing the shyness for one might reduce the other, I guess. But she doesn’t have to share anything about her personal life if she doesn’t want to.

        1. Nicosloanica*

          Yeah I could see roles where this is truly not a big deal, but in most roles, I think it’s a reasonable expectation to speak up in a meeting – without needing to be prompted – when your area of expertise is being discussed. And it’s reasonable for a boss to note that a failure to do this will be career-limiting – which doesn’t mean it’s not still this employee’s option to decide they are fine with being career limited and not speaking up for themselves.

          1. FMNDL*

            I’m in this boat. I’ll never advance in a traditional workplace (thanks, autism!). I’ve learned that to thrive I need to move into a freelance role where I can align the work style better with my capabilities and limits.

        2. FMNDL*

          Introverts exist. Private people exist. We do not owe you our personal lives!

          In terms of participating in meetings, I’d encourage providing multiple ways for staff to participate. I personally really really struggle in meetings. The sensory overwhelm is real and my brain just needs time to digest. I constantly get in trouble at work for participating “wrong” in meetings.

          Are agendas shared ahead of time? Is there a moderator helping to manage conversation? Can people put thoughts in a text-based chat or follow up later via email? These considerations can help make meetings accessible to more people.

          1. Been There 2*

            For comments like yours, I wish there could be an ‘upvote’ button. I also wish more people would recognize the value of introverts.

            1. Rook Thomas*

              Agreed! “Respect her differences, value her for the good worker she is, and let the rest go.” Good advice for a lot of different kinds of people we might work with.

            2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

              I’m very introverted, but speaking up when appropriate has nothing to do with introversion and is often necessary. That aspect is totally separate from just being reserved about her personal life.

              It would be very weird if I was in a meeting and refused to answer a question that I knew the answer to and instead sent an email. That’s not introversion, that’s serious anxiety.

              2. Anne Shirley Blythe*

                Just to be clear, in the context of the letter, there is no indication that Marianne refuses to answer questions in meetings; just that she needs prompting to contribute. Yes, the former would indeed be an issue.

                1. Tio*

                  It can definitely be an issue if she’s not speaking up on her own sometimes. Managers don’t live the day to day operations; if you have an employee on that task/project whatever, and they are discussing updates/changes/new processes, then that person needs to speak up a bit because they have a better idea what the changes will actually affect. They almost always have valuable insight. OP would be better positioned to know what the result of prompting her to speak was – if it was just fluff, then yeah, maybe she didn’t have anything to say. But if she did have things to mention and OP thinks they should have been brought up, then that’s part of the job and Marianne needs to push through and offer input when appropriate.

                  I also agree with Frito that this is definitely pushing past introversion territory and into anxiety, and shouldn’t necessarily be swept under a blanket idea of “introverted” to handwave it away.

              3. jasmine*

                My take away from the comment was that for people who are quieter in meetings, having additional things in place (agendas that folks can add notes to ahead of time, a chat feature for remote work, etc.) is a good way to encourage participation

                On the spot communication is hard for some folks. That might be a work issue that needs to be fixed, but it’s also worth seeing if there are other measures that can be put in place to make it easier

              4. Orv*

                In high school I was bullied a lot for being a “know-it-all.” It’s taken a long time for me to get past the idea that I need to nerf my intelligence for people to like me. For that reason I’ll sometimes not speak up in meetings in the hopes someone else will get to the answer first. I wonder if Marianne’s history is similar?

                1. TheOtherKaye*

                  YES! I may have been a straight A student up until about 14yo, but this, plus being an only child and having parents whose attitudes ran along the lines of the old “children should be seen and not heard” (how they both grew up) meant that I was socially awkward for a very long time. Still am, in some circumstances, many years later. I listen rather than talk, and have needed to learn to make the effort to contribute. Other childhood/young adulthood experiences have “taught” me to keep private matters to myself and not share too much..
                  I am who I am, Marianne is who she is..as long as her work is satisfactory she’s probably going to be happier if you leave her be. There’s no point in pushing her to be more sociable if the end result is that she gets to the point where she’s had enough, and gives notice.

            4. Judy*

              You can be an introvert but the letter writer is clearly stating that Marianne does not fit in. And that’s not good. I work in a smaller office where, when even one person is like this, it creates tension on the team. I think everyone would be happier (including Marianne!) if she worked in a different, less collegial environment.

          2. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

            I’ve read a bunch of the comments and a lot of people are focusing on her lack of participation in meetings/retreats, but the letter writer says that Marianne is good at her job and is a behind the scenes person. Maybe Marianne’s support role is such that she’d rather just hear what others’ needs are and then adjust because they’re the ones making the presentations, talking to clients, etc. Presumably, if there is something she needs, she’ll speak up, either in meetings or privately with the LW. No job is perfect or couldn’t be improved in some way, but there’s also the possibility that maybe, Marianne is just good at what she does and is happy with the way things are going, so she doesn’t have anything to add.

            1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

              Forgot to add: I had a coworker who worked here for 40+ years and we worked together for about three. I wasn’t sure he could talk for the first year and a half I worked here- every meeting, he was stone silent- not in an unfriendly way, just didn’t have anything to add. The first time he said something in a meeting, you betcha I paid very close attention. The man had done it all, seen it all, had the patience of a saint, and didn’t feel the need to contribute. When asked a direct question, especially alone, he’d answer and he was very friendly, just very quiet and shy. If I could fill the entire plant with clones of him, I’d be a lot less stressed.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                I had a coworker like this. He was so incredibly quiet and always seemed to be concentrating so hard that I was loath to even talk to him about work stuff lest I disturb him. Then one day during a casual office lunch, I started a conversation, and he turned out to be one of the nicest people ever! He just wasn’t a buddy-buddy kind of person at work. Which is fine! When I left that job, he said he would miss me. <3

                1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

                  My coworker was a member of management and an expert (as in, literally built machines and developed protocols for usage) and still…did not offer up opinions in meetings but every once and awhile. Again- if you asked him a direct question, he’d answer and in a friendly manner. I think I feel for Marianne because it seems like people are assuming she’s completely not forthcoming at all and that probably isn’t the case. I’m also not convinced she’s the holder of some specific knowledge that isn’t being shared; since she’s doing her job well and no one has complaints about her work OTHER than she doesn’t speak up in meetings…it seems like a weird hill for people to fixate on.

            2. Chirpy*

              This, some people are better at listening and then digesting information first, and may come up with a far more useful response later – when they aren’t being put on the spot.

            3. Sarah Canovcoke*

              “Presumably, if there is something she needs, she’ll speak up, either in meetings or privately with the LW.”

              Did you miss where the LW said this: “She doesn’t speak up, and in a recent all-day retreat said literally not one word. In meetings when something comes up that is clearly appropriate for her to weigh in on, I have to specifically ask her to comment.”

              1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

                Appropriate- but not mandatory? Again, she isn’t performing poorly and it doesn’t sound like the people she supports have an issue with her, so it doesn’t sound like Marianne feels that what she could contribute in that moment is necessary and/or different from what others are already providing.

                Is her silence on the extreme side? Sure. But she’s a good worker, no one’s complaining about her actual work, and she’s been there for years- maybe this is just Marianne’s work style.

                1. carrot cake*

                  Presumably, though, most employees at LW’s workplace also are good workers and good performers. Why should they speak up on topics relevant to them if even one of them doesn’t have to? That seems unjust.

                2. Tio*

                  I think that speaking up in meetings on her particular subject is really more on the mandatory side, in terms of business work. You’re going to have issues if the person most versed in a subject/procedure doesn’t offer up things you’d want to consider because they’re too shy/quiet/anxious/whatever she’s defining herself as.

                3. WillowSunstar*

                  Some people are very quiet and shy. It doesn’t mean they’re intending to be rude, or cold, or whatever. In my case, I was bullied all through school and had a verbally abusive parent also. So I was quiet and shy before doing Toastmasters for years, never knowing if would be be bullied or not. That person could have been me, except for the marriage part. As for lives, some people do lead very boring personal lives and really don’t have much to talk about.

                  If it is going to be a requirement to participate more in meetings, I would recommend to the employee (maybe even paying for the first year) to join a Toastmasters club. Table topics especially helps people overcome their anxiety about speaking up when asked questions in meetings.

              2. Festively Dressed Earl*

                We didn’t miss it. But we also didn’t miss the part where LW said We know almost nothing about her personal life and didn’t know she was even dating someone until we randomly found out she got married. She never attends non-mandatory work events like staff parties. She recently asked us not to celebrate her birthday as we do the rest of the team. And we’re wondering what any of that has to do with Marianne’s job.

          3. Working Class Lady*

            Same. I 100% agree with this comment.

            If she does her job well, is pleasant to work with, and easy to manage….let her be.

            Talking about your personal life generally is not necessary to perform a job. Also, some people are simply more comfortable keeping work and personal life separate, and that’s perfectly okay.

            LW needs to tell everyone else to lay the heck off and focus on their own jobs.

            1. carrot cake*

              Sure, but the other side of the coin is:

              “In meetings when something comes up that is clearly appropriate for her to weigh in on, I have to specifically ask her to comment.”

          4. Sarah Canovcoke*

            I think you’re conflating “introversion” with something else…. social anxiety or shyness or something. Being an introvert does NOT mean “I’m too shy quiet and overwhelmed to speak up at work about MY part of a project.” I don’t think anyone in this thread has implied that you or anyone else “owe [us your] personal lives!” But that’s not what being introverted means. The term introvert gets so misused and overused for a wide variety of things that often boil down to being shy, being self conscious, or just not liking people or public speaking. People CAN choose to be private, even aloof at work and not share details. Heck I LOVE those people! They get the job done and don’t waste my time talking for an hour about their kids, cats, cars or sports. BUT, if in a meeting and THEIR portion of a project update comes up, they need to be able to speak up and say, “yeah waiting on XYZ from ABC department and we’re good to go” or whatever.

            1. allathian*

              Yes, this. I’m fairly introverted in the sense that crowds exhaust me and that I’d far rather spend time with a handful of people than a roomful. I also value my handful of close friends and don’t need to fill my life with a large number of “second-tier” friendships.

              I was shy and socially awkward until I went to college, although I started coming out of my shell a bit in high school, thanks to working retail (being in a job role taught me to talk to strangers without feeling awkward) and my high school drama club. But even when I was shy and socially awkward, I was always open to talking with my friends. It’s just that it took me longer than most to make friends because I was so shy. And I was completely incapable of even giving the time of day to a boy/young man until my senior year in high school.

          5. Alexandra Beth*

            Agreed. I’m not as shy as Marianne seems to be but I’m not good at speaking up in meetings with big groups of people. My favourite manager was very good at asking directly “Alexandra Beth, what do you think about this”. It gave me the break in conversation I needed to speak up. People have different skills and styles and I think a manager should adapt to that as much as possible.

          6. NotAnotherManager!*

            We’re also kind of awesome – who (outside sales, fundraising, and PR-type fields) wouldn’t want someone who does a great job at their work and doesn’t uncomfortably overshare with you, interrupt you when you’re clearly reading your book at lunch, or expect you to look at photos of their pet for a half-hour?

            1. The Kulprit*

              Yes, thank you! One of my favorite qualities in a coworker is, “comfortable with silence”.

              I used to work with someone like you described and no amount of ear buds or visible books could stop her. We all ended up eating lunch in our cars.

          7. LeaveIntrovetsAlone*

            100% this. As an introvert, I need time to process information. If I get the agenda and glimps of the presentation for the meeting, I can give it some thought and then participate more actively. When I’m given the opportunity to do this, I come up with valuable ideas that my superiors have often recognized as great thinking outside the box and that they haven’t thought of it that way. So, yes, introverts are valuable.

          8. Momma Bear*

            Firm agree. Introverts do not need to become extroverts to be good employees.

            We had a programmer at a prior job that I could not tell you anything about. He came on time, he did his work, he participated in mandatory meetings, and he kept very much to himself. Anytime someone commented we kind of shrugged and said, “That’s just Joe.” He was far more reliable than some of the chatty coworkers so management wisely let him be. I like the ideas for how to contribute without being put on the spot.

            There are a lot of reasons someone might keep their personal life personal. I agree to continue to coach her about work-related things but don’t push her to be more open about non-work things. When she needed support, she did come to LW. LW should just understand that she’s an “opt in” kind of person and leave her alone about things that are not relevant to her actual job. Not everyone wants or needs to have friends at work. I rarely/never go out for lunch with coworkers. It means I want my quiet time, not that I hate everyone.

          9. hereforthecomments*

            I like the point about agendas shared ahead of time. My current supervisor is very good about this and also giving staff members a heads up if they might need to weigh in so that they can come prepared. Some people don’t do well with being put on the spot in front of a group of people. I know I’ve had moments where my mind will go completely blank about something I know inside and out, but taking along a few notes that I can glance at will get me back on track.

          10. Elizabeth*

            Yes. Alison addressed this perfectly. The team is stronger for having the variety of personalities and approaches. Maybe all the chatty people on the team could learn a lesson from Marianne rather than expecting her to change. She is an excellent worker – respect that and ask what YOU and the team can learn from HER.
            Good comment about broadening our minds to the many ways that people can contribute their brilliance other than communicating verbally, in real time, in meetings.

      2. learnedthehardway*

        Agreed – that’s the only thing that I would look for change on – i.e. if she needs to contribute to meetings with ideas / feedback / suggestions because she’s the expert or the decision will affect her work or simply because she has good information/ideas to offer. I would make that a performance goal, because it is important for the business and for her own career success.

        Otherwise, I would support her by pushing back on people’s concerns that she is aloof. People interpret quietness negatively – it’s like a vacuum and some people just cannot handle that and feel they have to ascribe motive to it. Remind those people that this is NOT about them. It’s just how she is, and she is a valued member of the team who does good work.

      3. Mockingjay*

        I think describing exactly what contribution Marianne needs to make will be the most effective. “During each weekly meeting, please provide status on the teapot painting. Give me a snapshot of where we are on schedule and any problems.”

        Turning an interaction into a task tends to prompt a concrete result, rather than a vague “You should speak up occasionally.”

        1. RG*

          Another note – what is the rest of your team like in meetings? If the others on the team are very “yes and!” types of people, then it can be tough for quieter people to feel comfortable breaking into that conversation flow to add something or especially to bring up a point no one has considered yet. Do you have any kind of mechanism like a hand-raise queue (for virtual meetings) or a literal hand-raising process or round-robin-type structure (for in-person meetings) that makes it easier for everyone to jump in and contribute?

          I am pretty comfortable jumping into conversations in meetings 90% of the time, but depending on the meeting context, there are times where I still feel much more comfortable raising my hand and waiting until there’s a natural break in the conversation. The key thing is that someone needs to be moderating the meeting to make sure that if that natural break is too long in coming, the people waiting to speak aren’t ignored.

          If you have those kinds of processes in place and Marianne still doesn’t contribute much, then you can at least be secure in the knowledge that you’ve done what you can to ensure everyone is comfortable in meetings. If her lack of speaking up doesn’t hinder her (or anyone else’s) job performance, then just let her do her thing.

          (The caveat: if Marianne wants to be promoted, and “face time” is the kind of thing that matters for promotion in your org, then it would be a kindness to let her know that–not to force her hand, but to give her all the information she needs to make her own career decisions.)

    2. amoeba*

      Yeah – I do feel there’s two parts to this, and encouraging her to speak up when it makes sense/is needed for her actual work would be useful and part of a manager’s job!

      I mean, absolutely no problem with somebody who is quiet and doesn’t share any personal details. But saying literally not a single word at a retreat? I mean, sure, depending on her role, maybe that’s fine, but if that’s keeping her from communicating and collaborating at work, I would think that part should be addressed.

      1. Anonym*

        Yep, and it’s a fairly concrete and limited ask. “When questions come up in meetings about your area of work, can you jump in and reply directly so I don’t have to toss the ball to you? It’ll save us a bit of time and ensure that people know what you own.”

      2. I Have RBF*

        IMO, if she was uncomfortable with the “togetherness” part of the retreat, she may not have been willing to speak up because it would be more discomfort.

        1. Yorick*

          That’s a double edged sword. If she were more familiar with the rest of the team and participated more in the social aspects, she might feel more comfortable speaking up in meetings about work-related topics. Also, people might feel more comfortable coming to her with questions or problems that she could help with.

          1. Yorick*

            I’m not trying to argue that LW should push her to share more personal stuff or do more socializing! But there’s a point where someone’s shyness or lack of desire to talk to coworkers or whatever can be too much – such as not speaking in meetings when needed.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      This! You could even ask a question like, “is there anything I can do to help you feel better able to contribute during meetings?” Some things I’ve done for my own team to help make this easier include agendas distributed beforehand so people can know what to expect, and giving people “homework” before a meeting (questions I want them prepared to answer at the meeting, or topics I want them to prepare some thoughts on to present at the meeting). I also encourage people at the end of a discussion in a meeting to get in touch with me if they have any additional thoughts, so that if there was something relevant that someone didn’t feel comfortable sharing during the meeting, they can do so privately afterwards.

      1. cottagechick73*

        Great suggestions of “homework” and agendas prior to the meeting, both allow someone like me on the shy-side to help prepare/mentally rehearse the answers that I might need. I hate being put on the spot and the seconds that seem like hours as everyone is staring at me as I mentally try to find the words to answer.

      2. FMNDL*

        If more meetings were conducted like this, I personally would be so much better able to participate and probably get in trouble at work less! Thank you for prioritizing accessibility!

      3. A Person*

        Something else that might help with the meeting is coaching on when it’s OK to interrupt people and how to do it – the LW mentions coaching her on what she should comment on in meetings, but not when or how.

        You might think this is obvious but it can be difficult for some people, particularly if others in the office are loud, talkative or quick to interrupt and don’t really leave a clear gap for Marianne to interject. You may also want to pay attention to whether people’s response to Marianne trying to do so is to keep talking louder – it’s common for this to happen to women, and especially women in what are seen as support/behind-the-scenes roles, and people don’t always realise it’s happening.

    5. Tio*

      Also came to say this. Show her how to speak up for work. I have a similar employee, and for example I give her her service awards in private because she would rather be punched in the face than given the award at a stand up meeting with everyone’s eyes on her like we do for most other people. But they do need to be able to speak and discuss their work product and work feedback at the office

    6. anonymous anteater*

      I was thinking the same, but the OP seems only moderately bothered by Marianne’s quietness at work. Maybe that is just in comparison to how very very private she is. But maybe speaking up is more optional, if Marianne is an individual contributor who gets work from others.
      I’d certainly point out that if she did want to be promoted into positions of leadership or higher seniority, then contributing more in work-related conversations and helping to steer the ship as opposed to merely rowing, is something she would need to exhibit. At least that’s true in my organization.

    7. Observer*

      I would focus on continuing to encourage her to speak up in meetings relevant to her work and making sure she feels comfortable and equipped to contribute in that way when necessary.

      Exactly. Focus on this and leave the rest alone.

      I get that you want her to be happy. But it’s clear that all of the stuff you are doing to try to get her to open up are *not* making her happy. In fact, given that she’s become *more* aloof, it could be it’s having the exact opposite effect.

    8. Immaterial*

      yes, encourage her to speak up regarding work issues. This could go part of the way to making her seem less aloof and highlight ing her contribution a without pushing into her private life.

    9. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Agreed. This is the only item in the letter that could be an opportunity for her to develop her work-related skills and competencies. Though it also sounds like it’s not the hugest deal, so OK to leave her be on this and just ask her in the moment to share her thoughts.

    10. Turquoisecow*

      I’ve been in meetings where something was discussed and decided with no objections and then after the fact someone said privately to me (not a manager) that they had concerns about the plan because of x, y, z. I told them this was a big enough concern they should have brought it up in the meeting and should bring it up to the boss or whoever was the ultimate decider.

      If something like this is happening where Marianne has concerns or even good ideas and she’s not mentioning them in planning meetings and that leads to issues down the road, then I would definitely encourage her to speak up. “You’re the expert on chocolate teapots and you’re in these meetings because we need someone with that expertise when we’re making our yearly plans. If someone says we can make 100 teapots a week and you know we can’t, you need to speak up in the meeting and let us know that, because otherwise our forecasts will be all wrong.”

      1. Figaro*

        Turquoisecow, did you ask them why they didn’t share at the time?

        Often there’s a reason.

        Sometimes people might think, when put on the spot, that 100 teapots a week is possible, but on reflection realise there will be various complications.

        Sometimes there are even particularly obnoxious people who will react badly, put you down or be very difficult. (You’d probably know if that was the case but still worth considering.)

        1. Momma Bear*

          My bosses have an open door policy. Sometimes it is easier to bring something up you are not certain of one-on-one or in email than it is to interject in the larger group. I recognize it is not always ideal, but it’s not unheard of for people to bring up something later. I work in a tech field where often what you think is going to happen isn’t what happens once the testers get involved.

          LW can also think about if this is really an environment where everyone is truly encouraged to contribute or if there are some loud folks that keep people from disagreeing with them.

    11. RIP Pillowfort*

      Yeah, the only thing I see really amiss is she doesn’t speak up in work relevant meetings. I say that as someone that observes it regularly from really socially reserved managers/co-workers it’s definitely something holding them back. Heck I’m an introvert that regularly has to spend 1-2 hours decompressing from the back to back meetings all day. But you do sometimes have to be responsive.

      Maybe I’m too close to the situation because I deal with people who very regularly will be completely silent during meetings and take multiple prompts to get them to answer questions directed at them. I’m not even joking about that.

    12. Pizza Rat*

      I’d like to know more about just what this coaching consists of. If it’s just, “You need to speak up more in meetings,” that’s less effective than finding out why it why it doesn’t happen. Does Marianne feel her opinions are valued? Are people dismissive of her? Does someone repeat her ideas as if they’re her own?

      Meeting participation is important. It’s also a good way to stay awake and keep your attention focused.

    13. Clown Eradicator*

      I don’t go to work to make friends, I go to work to make money. If it happens naturally, great, but I’m also one that doesn’t participate in any non required events.

      2. That Crazy Cat Lady*

        Same. My coworkers aren’t my friends. They are people I have to be around. That’s not genuine friendship, even if we are friendly with each other.

      3. JTh*

        I get along fine with my teammates and managers. But I don’t like being nagged to attend anything outside my work hours. That includes office parties. I already spend much of my waking hours at work. Let me choose how I wanna spend my personal time.

    14. Hamster Manager*

      Yes, this is the only thing that stood out as actionable to me as well. She may have taken your prompts to mean “when OP prompts me, that’s when I should speak”.

      I’ve been told to speak up and have more initiative in plenty of situations where I thought I was behaving and contributing correctly. Just let her know that’s an expectation in certain circumstances.

      1. allathian*

        I think you hit the nail on the head here. LW, please ensure that she knows you expect her to talk about her work without any prompts from you.

    15. Binky*

      I strongly agree that she needs to speak up in meetings on relevant topics. That’s part of the job.

      I also think that having basic communication with colleagues really is an aspect of most jobs. She needs to be comfortable sharing her knowledge and insight, and her colleagues need to be comfortable going to her with business issues. Having her be a complete silo likely isn’t doing the department favors. I can think of a number of times that my informal discussions with colleagues led to huge efficiency gains, where one person had an answer or resources that the other wouldn’t have known about without the conversation.

      I think her concersations can remain fairly sparse and entirely work focused, but they should be encouraged.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, absolutely.

        I think that she also needs to be told that her reticence to speak up is going to stall her career. Maybe she doesn’t mind that, and lots of people don’t want to go into management (including me), but she’s never going to advance much past entry level if she isn’t willing to speak up unless someone prompts her. As it is, she couldn’t even cross-train other employees to cover her absences.

        The one advantage of virtual meetings is that people who really don’t want to speak up can type something in the chat instead. This is especially valuable in large meetings.

    16. Ellie*

      Yes, if she’s in a position to spot problems and shyness is holding her back from doing that, then that’s a work problem. Everything else that OP has described is not. It would be a boring world if we were all the same.

  3. KayDeeAye*

    Please, OP, leave Marianne alone unless she becomes a genuine problem. Don’t get me wrong, I can see why it bothers you, but she’s an adult, she does great work, her personality doesn’t get in the way of her doing her job, so we have to assume that she has excellent reasons for her aloofness, even if we don’t know what those reasons are. Let it go.

    1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      Instead of loaded terms like aloof or shy, can you get you teach yourself that she is reserved.
      It’s not a character flaw or a moral failing. It’s not pathological. She doesn’t interact outside of business needs. She seems to have a full life outside of work, based on the little you’ve gathered. If there is a problem with how she interacts with business needs, that is OP’s purview.
      I think I told the story of my mom. She re-entered the workforce in her 40s. It was the 80s so she answered the question “will you have any issues with childcare?” by saying her school children were in high school and in junior high. Not that she had 4 more who were married with kids. My mom had her reasons and your employee does, too.

      1. Richard Hershberger*

        Very much this on “aloof” being a loaded word. It is easy enough to choose another word with the same denotation but a more positive connotation.

      2. iglwif*

        “Shy” is a neutral word but yeah, “aloof” is very loaded. I like “reserved” — it doesn’t have the connotation of “snobby” or “actively unfriendly.”

        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          “Shy” is a neutral word but…
          I understand what you are saying. And it should be.
          It’s weird. I hear someone call an adult shy and my head goes to:
          Saying “she’s shy” is something you say about a child that needs extra care, concern, coaxing. Saying an adult is shy, indicates they need special treatment, instead of just letting them be. Almost infantilizing. But that’s is my own over analysis!

          1. iglwif*

            I wonder if this is a cultural thing? I think of “shy” as a value-neutral word, but thinking about it, this is actually not the first time I’ve seen someone use it negatively or say it reads negatively to them!

            I’m now remembering a weird exchange I had with someone on social media (why did I engage? idk) who said very emphatically that you should never say a child is shy, you should say they are “slow to warm up to new people” and I said “… but isn’t that exactly what ‘shy’ means, just in way more words?” The person did not react well.

            1. Jenesis*

              When I think of “shy”, I think of a person who wants to socialize more, but is held back by social anxiety or lack of confidence – like the nerd who wants to ask the cheerleader to prom but is too afraid of rejection. It’s not a moral failing, but it is seen as an obstacle that it would be beneficial to overcome. If Marianne is characterized as “shy” by the office, it makes sense to me why OP would believe it would be helpful try to encourage her out of her “shell”.

              If I wanted to describe a person who doesn’t talk much and is content with that, I’d be more likely to use “quiet”, “reserved”, or “introverted.”

              1. allathian*

                Introverted doesn’t really work here, either. Quiet or reserved are fine.

                You can be a chatty introvert like me. Being introverted just means that I can tolerate other people’s company only for a relatively short time before I need to recharge my batteries by being completely alone. For example, I can’t imagine attending a conference that lasts more than two days, and even then, I need to rest in my hotel room between the conference program and networking dinner. But I’ll enjoy both the program and the socializing during and after dinner.

                I’m not antisocial because I love talking to people, although I prefer small groups over large crowds. I’m not shy about making my views known in meetings, rather the reverse as I’m apt to ramble if given the opportunity. But

            2. metadata minion*

              I think there’s a distinction to be made between someone who’s anxious in social situations — which I’d call shy — and someone who just…isn’t very social and takes a long time to go from acquaintance to friend (if they even want to — some people just have their small circle of important people and don’t want to expand it).

              A shy person might actively want to overcome their anxiety; someone who’s reserved and solitary might be perfectly happy interacting with people when necessary but just not feel the need for any additional conversation.

              1. allathian*

                I’ve been both, sort of. I was anxious in social situations until my late teens and I really benefited from college and working retail. There are no positives to being shy (at least not in cultures where self-effacement isn’t a required behavior for certain groups of people) and in extreme cases, shyness can be disabling.

                I’m a chatty introvert and occasionally have to remind myself not to ramble too much in meetings. I enjoy being around and with people, but other people also drain my energy, and I need lots of me-time to recharge.

            3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

              I wonder, too, if it’s cultural. I agree with interpretations of the two responses to you. They clearly defined the term in the way I meant, but could not.

    2. Nicosloanica*

      The sick day thing gave me pause. You noticed, and you let her know you noticed. Could be totally innocuous, but this may have also felt intrusive to her, maybe playing into negative past experiences that have nothing to do with you, or maybe she just has a very “boss-as-authority-figure” attitude where Your Notice reads as an automatic correction.

      1. Lea*

        Yeah I think it’s hard not to notice if someone is calling in a lot but keeping it work related conversations is probably necessary – you can dip over into asking for medical info too quick

        1. Sloanicota*

          I admit I would translate “I notice you are taking a lot of sick days” into “I am unhappy that you are calling out too much and it is a problem” but that’s really my own problem / past jobs with coverage requirements still haunting me.

          1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

            As a manager, I struggle with this, like I want to express concern but not to seem like I’m criticizing. Although I feel like it’s clear that I am pro using leave as you need to, I err on the side of not saying anything.

            1. Sloanicota*

              My inner monologue is “you said I have two weeks of sick leave, and I’m under that amount, so why are you bringing up my sick leave?” but sometimes later I’ve realized they were attempting to show human care and concern, which I barely registered at the time because I thought they were criticizing my use of PTO. Again, very much my own issue.

          2. jasmine*

            I would as well. but adding on “take as much time as you need, just wanted to check in to see if I can support you in any way” would alleviate that for me

      2. Csethiro Ceredin*

        Hopefully it would have reassured this employee that when she did confide in the manager about something being wrong she was offered time off and EAP resources.

        But yes, observations about sick time are always tricky and many people have had managers treat any human needs their employees had like business problems, so it can be sensitive.

      3. OP*

        Thanks for your comment! I totally agree with you and was worried about speaking up but it became so regular and constant that I felt it would actually be worse not to say anything. I ended up doing it by waiting until she was back the next time she took off, asked her if she was okay as I normally would, and then told her I was glad she used her days and she didn’t need to every tell me why, but I wanted her to know that if she ever needed flexibility or accommodations for a medical situation I’d be happy to help her. And then we moved on with our meeting. Could it have made her uncomfortable, sure, but at the time it felt like the right thing to do.

        2. Observer*

          I think this was very reasonable. While I am on team “leave her alone”, I don’t think you need to do so much tiptoe-ing that you are afraid to notice something noticeable. You did not make a big issue out of it, just let her know that there was flexibility to be had. That’s good.

  4. Rhetorical bathtub*

    As the Marianne of my team: YES to everything Alison said.

    I know that people are probably discomfited by my shyness-that-reads-as-aloofness, but pressuring a shy person (in my experience, anyway) only makes it worse. It’s like trying to cure someone’s arachnophobia by surrounding them with pictures of spiders. (Not a perfect analogy, but go with it.)

    I am much, much happier in large work crowds if I’m allowed to just exist at myself. If I’m constantly being harangued to socialize, I’m going to dread those events. If you need her to speak up about work-related stuff, that’s one thing. But having been on the receiving end of constant “Wow! RB is talking, let’s all stare at her!”… it’s exhausting and scary.

    DGMW; I appreciate that people want me to feel comfortable. But overdoing it, especially after clear signals, does the opposite.

    1. Sweet Summer Child*

      “I appreciate that people want me to feel comfortable.”
      But they need to do it for you, not for them.
      My proudest moment, I was in a new relationship and three months in his birthday rolled around. I told him that he said he wanted nothing, so that’s what I was going to do. He said, “I was afraid you’d have a party because you love throwing birthday parties.”
      No, I love birthdays.
      So you get to do whatever you want.

      1. A Person*

        “But they need to do it for you, not for them.”
        Yes, exactly! I think often when people talk about wanting the other person to feel “comfortable” in this situation, it’s really more that the one doing the talking feels uncomfortable or judged because their small talk isn’t reciprocated (hence “aloof”).

        I feel like there’s also often an assumption that the other person desperately wants to talk about this stuff but can’t because they’re sooooooo shy – when actually they just aren’t really interested in the kind of small talk a lot of people like.

        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          Exactly. People (myself included) think that other people are like them. If they are not, they must want to be, but are struggling to!

    2. Spacewoman Spiff*

      Seconded! I was extremely shy until my early 20s, and in some situations (especially big meetings and crowds) still find it difficult to jump into conversations–and the one thing that never, never helps is having someone point out how shy I am, or point out that I’m not talking or sharing, in a way that doesn’t create the space for me to do that but DOES make clear that I’m expected to do so. It sounds like it may be important for Marianne to speak in certain meetings, and that could be something she could be coached on, but also frankly something her manager could work on, to ensure she has the space to speak; which might mean giving her advance notice that you’ll want her to speak about X, or planning how you’ll hold space for her to jump into the conversation. I’ve had to talk with managers about how I can’t really speak off the cuff, and need time to develop my thoughts on paper before speaking in meetings, and I wonder if the LW could talk with Marianne about how to set up the situation so she’s more able to speak about her work.

    3. OP*

      This is a really good point that many others and Alison made – by trying, even if I think I’m being subtle, I could be making it worse. A lot of my motivation for attempting to get her to connect with our team stem from that stereotypical small-team/nonprofit dynamic we so often hear about in this blog, so what I’m taking from this is that the best way I can advocate for her is to push back and/or ignore higher ups when they ask why she’s so reserved. I’m kind of using your comment to respond to all who said this!

      1. Sean*

        Since Marianne has always been quiet for the many years that she’s been there (and presumably the higher-ups were either unconcerned or unaware), has something changed recently to cause the bosses start pressuring you?

        Now that Marianne is on the bosses’ radar, is there a possibility they might intervene directly if she doesn’t change sufficiently for their liking? If they press too hard, they might end up pushing away what sounds like a model low-maintenance employee who gets the job done with no fuss.

    4. Bunny Girl*

      I’m also a Marianne. You know what’s happened to the jobs that push me to socialize outside of work hours in my free time, have harassed me for personal information, and think that they are owed more than me just showing up and doing good work? I’ve quit. :)

  5. Anonny*

    I have a feeling this is going to become more common, as post-pandemic we all kind of realized that our jobs do not in fact need to be our entire personality or the only fulfilling thing in our lives. Sometimes a job is just the thing that pays the bills (so we can go and enjoy our actual lives with friends and family and hobbies) and nothing else, and that’s okay.

    1. Alan*

      I can here to say this. Your job enables your life, but it needn’t *be* your life. The one caveat I have is that, in my experience, people who treat it as just a means to a paycheck don’t necessarily get recognized or promoted as much. But some people don’t care about that.

    2. Sloanicota*

      I always have this reaction to the concept of ‘bringing your whole self to work’ which is important to some people but not really my jam. I like to bring only a small professional sliver of myself to work actually :P

      2. Kyrielle*

        My whole self wants to read fanfic, eat sweets, and play Minecraft. My whole self can wait for non-work hours.

      3. Tilly*

        The problem is that the kind of people who expect you to be super open work friends with everyone, also expect you to have the same interests as them. They are the kind of people who try to “fix” you when you don’t drink, do parties, watch the latest HBO hit, follow the sport, etc.

  6. AnonInCanada*

    Everything Alison says. If Marianne doesn’t want to discuss her personal life or engage in non-work related conversation, so be it. I’m no fan of small-talk either. It’s okay not to be an extrovert. You (OP) tried to encourage Marianne to step out of her comfort zone. She’s subtly given you the message that she’d rather stay within it. If she’s otherwise a star employee, let her be.

  7. Not Aloof Just Anxious*

    Yes, please leave her alone. I probably come off a lot like Marianne – aloof and closed off. Honestly I’m just really anxious and neurodivergent, it doesn’t often occur to me to engage with others, and when I do I’m so wracked with anxiety during and afterward that I don’t want to do it again. I would like if people didn’t see this as a problem to solve but just how I am and let me be.

    1. Been There 2*

      I’m similar… on the spectrum, anxious, introverted. I’m 70 and will be working as long as possible. Thankfully I can still produce the work of 2+ people with high accuracy. Thanks to Alison’s blog, I’ve become a model employee.

      I hate small talk, but our clients would never know. I seem to have a limited stock of phrases for being social when necessary, so when those run out or people try to get to know me, anxiety kicks in and I can be unintentionally abrupt (especially if I’m asked questions of a personal nature).

    2. Yeontan*

      Same. My not speaking up in meetings isn’t shyness, it’s neurodivergence (autism). I hope the OP will accept Marianne for who they are as long as they are doing good work.

  8. Caramel & Cheddar*

    This is definitely looking for a problem where there isn’t one. Unless she moves into a role where not being aloof is important to the work, don’t create a problem where one does not currently exist. Most managers would dream of an employee who sounds as good as this one!

    1. Heidi*

      Agree with enjoying an employee that does her work well and creates no personal drama. If her aloofness is causing her to be under-recognized with regards to her work contributions, that might be a point for coaching or even rethinking how credit is acknowledged where you work. But if she’s happy with the work and not losing out on promotions that she wants because the higher ups don’t know who she is, then letting her be her aloof self would be the right approach for an inclusive, non-toxic work culture.

  9. badger*

    This woman is a super high performer and great at her job! This is a non-problem. I’d say feel free to coach her a little bit on speaking up more when it’s necessary in meetings – that is actual job performance. But why do you care if she’s dating someone? That is not your business!

    I would also add here – I am an outgoing person with an active social life. My colleagues, even ones I am close with and have a super warm relationship with, do not know basically anything about it. Why? Because I’m gay and date non-monogamously and it would be extremely likely I’d be discriminated against, even only in small ways, if I shared much of my personal life – please stop pressuring this person to share. Marianne is probably just a shy and quiet person, but people don’t not share things because they just haven’t ~~realised they can share. They’re making an active choice, based on what they think is right for them personally.

    1. Potato Potato*

      Just wanna say- same. I’m also queer and non-monogamous with an active social life that I don’t share anything about at work. I’m pretty sure my manager thinks I sit around doing nothing all evening and do nothing but hike on the weekend.

      1. Audrey Puffins*

        Another one here! I have a couple of hobbies I’m okay with talking about at work, and I have interests that are between me and my fellow practitioners, and I do think it’s weird that my co-workers probably think I’m an extremely sporty and active person above all other things, but that’s what I’m comfortable sharing so that’s where we are. It’s not that I’m ashamed of my other aspects, they’re just… not for sharing with everyone who crosses my path, we’re allowed to have that privacy for ourselves.

      2. Wolf*

        Same here. They figured out there are two partners, but they still assume I’m a cishet woman who doesn’t do more exciting things than read and hike, and I’ll happily leave it at that.

    2. Observer*

      But why do you care if she’s dating someone? That is not your business!

      Yes, that raised my eyebrows a bit. Sure, getting married is a big deal, so I can see how it would come up for a lot of people. But there are plenty of people who are not as quiet at work who don’t tell anyone about their dating life! Leave her alone about that stuff.

      people don’t not share things because they just haven’t ~~realised they can share. They’re making an active choice, based on what they think is right for them personally.

      That’s a really good way of putting it!

    4. Possibly a childless cat lady*

      In addition to gay non-monogamous dating, being single in a very “couple” place of employment can be ick.

      People disapprove of a sorts of things – heterosexuals who date too many people, people who don’t date enough, people who socialize during the work week, people who use dating apps, people go on inexpensive dates, people who go on expensive dates…the list is ridiculous.

      If I suspect a whiff of disapproval, I discuss nothing.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Stop assuming a social phobia or misanthropy when someone just doesn’t spread their business everywhere.

        1. Bella Ridley*

          Introversion and being a quiet/withdrawn person aren’t at all the same thing. You can be an introvert who loves chatting with people, just needs time to recharge alone afterwards. You can be an extrovert who gets huge amounts of energy from being in social environments, but isn’t overly talkative. “Not spreading their business everywhere” isn’t really an introvert thing.

          1. Space Needlepoint*

            Thank you. An introvert can be outgoing until they need the recharge. It’s about how you get your energy more than it is whether your behavior is social and chatty.

          2. Productivity Pigeon*

            Exactly! That’s me!

            I’m very chatty but I always leave first if I’m attending after work events.

          3. Sloanicota*

            Yeah I actually have started feeling the need to defend extroverts lately (and I don’t even consider myself one). “Having poor boundaries” =/= extrovert! Being obnoxious =/= extrovert! “Main Character Syndrome” =/= extrovert! This term does not mean what we think it means!

            1. Tio*

              I think that lately the edges of both introvert and extrovert have begun sliding over things that aren’t really about that description but are actually other issues. For extroverts, they’re sucking in the boundary stompers and potential narcissists. For introverts, they’re sucking in some people who are actually anti-social or have actual anxiety issues. You should be able to both tell people to give you some space without them reacting negatively, and be able to muster a little bit of small talk with your coworkers occasionally. That doesn’t mean all the time or spreading out personal information, but just some polite noises once in a while.

              1. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

                Tio, you’re spot-on.
                This is thing that people do about alllll kinds of social identities, usually unconsciously as an instinctive way to justify and bolster their own sense of positive identity. They define the identity they occupy as good and other options as less-good, or even bad. Many people can consciously counter the unconscious impulse, and usually do unless they feel the need to defend the identity against criticism.

          4. allathian*

            This. I’m a chatty introvert. I’ve always been an introvert, but I haven’t always been chatty in social situations. Until my late teens, I was *very* shy.

            I have an extroverted friend who isn’t particularly talkative, but she prefers a noisy busy environment to work in.

      2. darsynia*

        Respectfully, I think that’s too much of a leap. If the LW hasn’t included anything that implies misanthropy in particular, I imagine that jumping to that conclusion is against the site rules. Ostensibly, the comments are there to offer additional context and help to the LW, and assuming things like this doesn’t help if it’s not true, and we can’t know if it is.

        It’s useful for this LW to know that there are other users who see themselves in Marianne’s behavior and can explain some of where it could be coming from. As such ‘stop trying to fix introverts! we’re fine!’ makes clear that Oaktree identifies with the subject of the letter.

        1. I Have RBF*

          IMO, there’s nothing wrong with being a misanthrope. I consider most people to be not “friend” material, and many people bewilder or disgust me – so I’m a bit of a misanthrope. The last few years have made me more so – IMO society has shown its ass regarding covid, etc.

          There is no rule that you have to like people, even at work. You just need to be cordial and professional.

          1. darsynia*

            Fair enough–I think I was responding to the negative framing more than anything else. In the end, my message is essentially, ‘we’re not meant to make unhelpful to the LW assumptions about behavior we aren’t qualified to diagnose,’ and I bristled at the idea that ‘quiet and reserved’ = fundamentally dislikes other people, heh.

            I think I qualify under that moniker lately, but I’m also hugely outgoing, so it’s personally exhausting. I can’t turn it off, and I wonder if Marianne can’t turn hers *on!*

            1. I Have RBF*

              That actually may be a possibility.

              I can be friendly, outgoing and chatty for a few hours. Then I need alone time. But I’ve been in the working world for over 40 years, and it’s a learned skill. I still cringe at my social awkwardness in my teens and 20s.

      3. chocolate lover*

        Don’t assume she’s a misanthrope. There’s no information to believe she hates anyone, or that she has a social phobia.

      4. nofiredrills*

        I don’t think it’s fair to consider someone who is really aloof in a work setting to be a misanthrope or having a “social phobia.” I’m a lot like Marianne at work, maybe a little more open about big personal events, but I have a social life and don’t want to mix that with work. Someone in the comments has already shared that they aren’t comfortable being out at work and that hinders what they share. You don’t choose your colleagues so I don’t see a need deeper relationships for many reasons

      5. Observer*

        And how do you know that either one is the case here?

        There is zero in the letter to indicate whether Marianne has social phobia or is just and introvert. And her behavior tends to lean *against* misanthropy. So *assuming* that either misanthropy or social phobia *is* what is happening here is a bit out of line.

        1. allathian*

          Sure. Just that introversion is nothing more than finding the company of other people exhausting rather than energizing. It has nothing at all to do with how talkative you are in other people’s company. There are shy extroverts who enjoy large crowds and being around people but who don’t necessarily enjoy being the center of attention very much, just like there are chatty introverts like me who enjoy talking to other people but who need lots of alone-time afterwards to recharge.

          But introversion/extroversion is a spectrum like most things that affect or depend on human brain functions. Very few people are introverted to the point that they’re genuinely happiest without any social interactions at all (hermits), or extroverted enough to be able to tolerate unlimited amounts of socializing without getting exhausted by it at some point.

      6. iglwif*

        Shy, socially anxious, and introverted person who is great at masking weighing in:

        It doesn’t sound to me like Marianne has a “social phobia” or is a misanthrope. It sounds like she isn’t great at speaking up at meetings without being asked (a small problem, because it sounds like she does contribute when LW asks her to; potentially worth coaching her on so she can contribute her insights at meetings where LW isn’t there to ask her) and like she has different boundaries around work relationships than most people in her workplace (not a problem at all unless others choose to make it one).

        She’s not unfriendly or cranky or rude. (I have worked with people who were all three; I wouldn’t describe any of them as “great at their job”.) She does her work really well and shows up to mandatory things, but chooses to spend her non-work time elsewhere. This is okay! This is fine!

        We all know (I hope) that “introvert” and “shy” and “socially anxious” are not the same thing and don’t always go together. But sometimes they do.

      7. aebhel*

        She doesn’t seem socially phobic or misanthropic? She’s just quiet. This isn’t actually a problem that needs to be solved, outside of maybe speaking up more in meetings (which is a simple straightforward work-related discussion that shouldn’t be an issue, given that this employee seems to take direction well).

    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      YES thank you. Not everyone wants to share at work. We should encourage this more. Part of work life balance is that you have a life outside of work that is completely separate. Meaning it doesn’t have to be talked about if someone chooses not to.

      1. amoeba*

        Eh, sure. But never saying a single word in any meeting is definitely on the extreme/could be an actual performance problem side. I somehow don’t think LW would have written in if it was just about “she doesn’t share who she’s dating”.

        1. Kjinsea*

          yeah, I had employees in my team who are reserved. But they will all speak up on meetings without prompting if a topic they have expertise on is the subject. This is important on my team; in many fields not speaking up when you are the expert would be an issue. If she needs manager prompting to speak up, that might be a performance issue

          1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

            It sort of depends on the nature of the prompting though, doesn’t it?
            I’m the Marianne on my team, for sure. I rarely talk in a meeting without being prompted. I’m the subject matter expert on some teapot management software we all use and are all reasonably familiar with. The vast majority of the time, the prompt is something like “any questions or concerns, Analyst?”, and the answer is “nope, I’m good.” It would be honestly weird and disruptive for me to interrupt earlier to tell them I don’t have any questions!
            On the flip side – when I do talk in meetings unprompted, often other people will talk over me or simply ignore what I’ve said. As far as I can tell, this is a cultural misfit in terms of conversational spacing, but it puts me firmly in Team This-Could’ve-Been-An-Email.

    3. Da Filthy Extrovert*

      I believe it is legitimate to ask that employees who seek promotions make some effort to be sociable. No one is saying they have to be the life of the party, but she has not shown up to any events at all in the years she’s been there. Knowing something about your co-workers can help the company. If you were a marketing person and discovered that a colleague was a spectacular photographer, for instance, surely that information could be relevant to doling out work assignments?

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Maybe she doesn’t want a promotion. Not everyone does. Some people are perfectly happy showing up each day, doing their job and going home at night. They don’t need or want to advance. They just wnt to be worker bees who get a paycheck.

        Marianne does not need fixing. Let her be.

      2. chocolate lover*

        That depends on whether the person was hired to do any photography and it’s part of the job. If it’s their hobby, that doesn’t mean they want to do it for work.

        And OP didn’t mention her wanting a promotion, not everyone does.

      3. Worker Wasp*

        Why? If they aren’t a photographer as their job, why assume that should factor into work assignments? I don’t want my boss using my personal talents at out of work activities to determine work assignments! There’s a reason I do those things for fun not money. Those skills aren’t for sale.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Agreed, it’s a really weird assumption that a side interest should be considered as part of work assignments if the person with the hobby hasn’t asked it to be.

        2. Sisyphus*

          Hard agree. I have talents and skills I refuse to disclose at work because the company evolved from a startup, and in true startup fashion, they like to try to get people to do work that falls outside their role so they don’t have to pay a contractor (or in many cases, a full on employee) the appropriate rate to do it. No thank you.

      4. Fluffy Fish*

        absolutely not. promotions should be based on if people are capable of doing the work. not whether they attend the work happy hour.

        1. Pescadero*

          Promotions should be based on if people are capable of doing the work, but often are based on whether they attend the work happy hour… it ain’t right, but if you’re int he situation it’s best you know the reality.

      5. Irish Teacher.*

        Yes, I think it would be completely valid to explain to Marianne that a particular role requires more interaction with others, if she was applying for such roles, but that doesn’t seem to be the concern here. It seems more like the LW feels that encouraging her to be more extroverted (or pretend to be, since introversion and extroversion are about how people feel, not how they appear to others) will make her feel more comfortable and appreciated.

      6. Observer*

        I believe it is legitimate to ask that employees who seek promotions make some effort to be sociable.

        The LW hasn’t said anything about promotions. Now, if they had said “Marianne wants a promotion but it’s not going to happen as long as she’s this withdrawn”, this would be a relevant point to raise. But if Marianne isn’t looking for a promotion, why bring it up?

        If you were a marketing person and discovered that a colleague was a spectacular photographer, for instance, surely that information could be relevant to doling out work assignments?

        Nope. Not at all! But it does give a very good example of one possible reason that someone might not want to discuss their off hours life at work. If Marianne is a spectacular photographer, and her job has nothing to do with marketing, it’s quite reasonable of her to NOT want to do photography work for the company. And if it’s not her job, you don’t get to decide that she *does* have to do it because you want her to.

        1. darsynia*

          There have even been letters written about this exact situation, where the employee in question desperately wished their employer didn’t know about their hobby because they were demanding extra unpaid work using that skill!

      7. iglwif*

        But maybe she doesn’t want to be promoted! In many workplaces promotion means managing people, and it doesn’t sound like Marianne would enjoy that.

        Maybe she really enjoys her job and her ambition is to do it really well. Lots of us are like that!

      8. Sloanicota*

        I think this is not actually the worst point. It’s not necessarily a management problem for OP to solve if Marianne doesn’t want to get promoted – she does good work in her current role, and it doesn’t sound like she has any interest in managing people or becoming a leader – but if OP got the sense that she *did,* it would be fair to discuss the perception of her colleagues if she deliberately skips all interactions outside of work. It’s human nature to assume someone isn’t interested in getting to know you, and may dislike you, if you don’t demonstrate any social willingness. The advice here on this blog is that it’s a good practice to occasionally attend work gatherings even if you don’t enjoy them. I would not promote someone into a cooperative role if they literally never said one thing (even when prompted?) at the staff retreat. That may be totally fine with Marianne though! No problem, no need to create a problem.

      9. Oryx*

        If I wasn’t hired as a photographer and don’t volunteer myself to take photos, then no, it’s not relevant.

        I have a hobby that occasionally comes up in the context of work, but it has nothing to do with my particular role in the company. Yes, sometimes I am happy to lend my area of knowledge to a work situation but it is presumptuous of any employer to assume an employee who sometimes crosses those lines will always want to cross those lines. And for an employee who never brings their hobby to their job it’s even more presumptuous to assume you can “dole out work” to them just because it’s convenient for you.

      10. iglwif*

        If a particular skill is needed and someone who has that skill is ready, willing and able to use it at work, they will tell you.

        If they know it’s needed and they haven’t told you, it’s because they want to keep it separate from work, which is 100% legit unless it was part of the job description they signed up for.

        1. a clockwork lemon*

          I have DEFINITELY had casual conversations at work happy hours where people didn’t know I had a background in X or was interested in learning more about Y and so didn’t include me in a conversation I wanted to be a part of. I can’t tell someone I have a skill and am interested in using it at work if I don’t know someone else is looking for that skill, and I won’t know someone else is looking for that skill if the only thing we ever talk about is the limited scope of whatever task we’ve scheduled a meeting to discuss.

          1. iglwif*

            Well, that’s why I said “if they know it’s needed.”

            In your scenario, “We are looking for someone to do X, does anyone have X-related skills?” is a question that can and should be asked in forums like a managers’ meeting (so they can each speak to their staff) or in a general Slack or Teams channel (where people can self-identify). Hoping it will come up randomly as a small-talk topic in a meeting about something else is not a very efficient way for the other person to get that need met, or for you to get an opportunity to use your skill.

      11. Dahlia*

        If I told you about my unrelated hobby and you tried to turn it into my job, I would be so annoyed and I wouldn’t talk to you about my hobbies anymore.

      12. Ginger Cat Lady*

        As a pretty good hobby photographer, absolutely not! I will not do photography for my day job, period. Photography is my hobby, I do not want it to be anything else.
        What I shoot for fun (nature & landscape) is not anything my day job needs. Shooting events & headshots is not something I’m good at, either. Totally different specialty.
        Also, my gear is MY GEAR. I’ve scrimped and saved and sacrificed to buy really good gear for my own purposes. My company does not get to expect to use it for business purposes. My gear would not really be appropriate for what a business might need, either.
        Your argument is actually a really good reason for NOT sharing your life with the company. Because they might think they’re entitled to even more of my life than they pay me for.

      13. aebhel*

        That’s not her responsibility. Her responsibility is to show up, be polite to her coworkers, do her job effectively, attend mandatory work events, all things that she has been doing. I don’t want my employer mining my personal life for skills or hobbies that might potentially benefit them if I haven’t gone out of my way to demonstrate them in a work context, and they are certainly not entitled to do so just because it might potentially ‘help the company’.

        If her reserve was costing her promotions she wanted, that would be worth discussing. But there’s no evidence that this is actually the case.

    7. Resume please*

      Agreed! And interoversion =/= aloof either. We’re just quiet!

      LW: I would only focus on the work-related issues. Speaking up when needed in meetings, specifically.

      1. allathian*

        Not necessarily. I’m a chatty introvert, but a day at the office surrounded by people exhausts me a lot more than a day in my quiet home office ever does. Even if I enjoy being around people.

    8. Productivity Pigeon*

      I agree with your statement at its core but I would also like to point out that I’m an INCREDIBLY chatty introvert who’s not reserved.

      But I always leave after work functions very early because I get tired.

      Introversion is not the necessarily same thing as shyness, silence or reservation.

    9. OP*

      I’m definitely not trying to fix her. She’s great. My question was more about if I should continue to try to connect with her on another level, as I’m being pressured to do from above, or if I should leave her alone and accept that the way I connect with people is not the way she does. I got my answer!

      1. kalli*

        The fact that you’re being pressured to make her more social is relevant information. It’s not about ‘should i make friends with my employee’ but ‘my employee’s work style has been noticed by senior people and they want it changed’. Different question.

        So what kind of pressure is it?

  11. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    Leave her alone. She knows that if she needs help she will be supported (absolutely fantastic job there) without having to put her whole life out there for everyone. Let her be. And let everyone else let her be.

    1. OP*

      Thank you for this comment. I think so many commenters are seeing my attempts to show her that the support is here if she needs it as prying or harping on something. I just want her to like it here! I’m going to work on backing off.

      1. Jenesis*

        You may also have to face the reality that Marianne does not “like it here” and may never.

        It’s a rare job that offers 1) meaningful work 2) in a skillset you’re good at 3) with competitive pay/benefits 4) a bearable location/commute and 5) reasonable bosses. Maybe asking for 6) her to enjoy her coworkers’ company is a bit much, if everything else is working out well. And I can tell you, as a Marianne myself, that if my coworkers were gossiping about how I must “hate” them because I never attend the staff parties, that would certainly not make me want to get to know them better, or think they would be good friends! (Which is to say, absolutely shut down the talk when you hear it – but don’t do it because you think it will change her behavior. Do it because it’s unkind and you don’t want to work in a company culture of unkindness.)

        You don’t mention how far along Marianne is in her career, but if she ends up leaving your company for a team more similar to her own tendencies, I hope you will not hold it against her.

        1. Jenesis*

          To clarify: I didn’t mean to imply by my first line that Marianne dislikes her job. But she may view the overall company culture as a negative that she’s decided to live with for the sake of all the other positives about her job. It may not be in her to change that facet of her personality, and you shouldn’t be expected to feel guilty about it!

        2. Tea Monk*

          Yes, there’s so few decent jobs out there so ” being best friends with all my coworkers ” is so far down the list as to be laughable

  12. Lisa*

    Alison, I agree with your advice re: let her be private and and keep her personal life to herself, but not speaking up in meetings where her input is important is potentially career-limiting and detracts from her effectiveness at the job. The LW needs to be clear with her on that point.

    1. Ari*

      It sounds like she does speak up when asked for her thoughts. I understand it would be easier if she spoke up without prompting, but not everyone is built that way. To me, it’s a good sign that the manager is asking specific people to contribute when they don’t speak up and that she isn’t refusing to talk when asked.

    2. Erelen*

      Absolutely. I have to play extrovert at work and still get comments about how I need to speak up more. I love my job/my team otherwise, so I just had to accept I’m stuck with my current title! Which is fine… promotions don’t reward happen anyway on a team this size.

  13. Person from the Resume*

    The letter is such a mix of legitimate areas for her to improve at her job and non-work stuff.

    Work improvement:
    – In meetings when something comes up that is clearly appropriate for her to weigh in on, I have to specifically ask her to comment.
    — I’ve coached her about what she should be speaking up about in meetings.- keep on doing this
    – She doesn’t speak up, and in a recent all-day retreat said literally not one word.
    — If the point of the retreat was to get work done – ie strategize and plan – then she needs to be interacting and speaking up a bit. Tell her this as it goes along with the previous feedback of speaking up about things that are related to her job.

    1. academic fashion*

      Yes. In fact, I wonder if the perception of Marianne as aloof might diminish if she contributed in meetings, e.g. “here’s something I’m hearing from clients that we should improve about ABC project,” or “I’m concerned about the timeline for XYZ project.” These sorts of contributions help coworkers get to know Marianne as a member of their team and work with her work-related needs, interests, and goals, without requiring her to reveal any personal information.

      1. academic fashion*

        To the points below about “maybe Marianne is ND,” maybe! and if so, there are accommodations that Marianne can request, including providing written feedback ahead of time that someone else reads and/or participating via chat. If meetings are on Zoom, for instance, I’m curious if Marianne contributes in the chat, which is often (though not always) easier for ND people to contribute. Anyhow. Conversation.

      2. Burning Burner*

        I agree that Marianne would be seen in a different light if she contributes more in meetings. But there’s still an important impression management risk. In my experience, people like Marianne sometimes end up with a negative all-work-no-play reputation if they’re markedly more vocal about work stuff than they are about personal stuff. That’s difficult to address from a coaching perspective.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      Actually it’s mostly non-work complaints from the LW which she should ignore and allow Marianne to be herself which is aloof.

      Only mention, work on, the work related speaking up.

    3. Lisa*

      I am generally like Marianne. I don’t like sharing much about myself until I feel safe, and sometimes not even then. But I also enjoy hearing other people talk and interact and don’t even always realize how little I’ve said until later. I’ve also got some trauma about speaking up about things I’m not comfortable or wish were changed. But as I’ve gained more seniority, I know it’s my responsibility to speak up to ensure the project goes well or team members aren’t unnecessarily stressed or stuff like that. If Marianne is in a similar situation, I think coaching her on speaking up in those situations would be appropriate. If she is missing cues where it’s expected for her to answer a question, make sure she can recognize those situations and know she needs to respond. It may also be wise to talk with her about her career goals. If she’s happy where she is, great. But if she wants to advance to more senior/management roles, she may need help to learn how/when to speak up. Doesn’t mean she needs to talk about her personal life, just that she may need to talk more about her work at work. Otherwise, I’d say leave her alone. She’s fine. :)

    4. Bast*

      As a naturally quiet person who used to work in a building where there were many naturally loud folks and quite a few “shout when I get excited” types, unless I was 100% sure that I had the floor, I did not compete with others to speak, or speak much at all during meetings. Quite a few times, when I was speaking, I had others attempt to shout over me. No doubt, the shouters/loud people did not see it this same way, but clearly thought they were engaging in what was a regular volume for them. If you’re in meetings like this enough, or your idea/comments are shut down enough, you eventually clam up — what’s the point, no one will listen you think. Now, I’m not saying this happens at this job (or maybe it does — as I said, the shouters at Old Office usually did not think they were shouting, so if that is the culture, people may not be cognizant that this is happening) it may have been a space she is used to working from and has stopped. Many people are not comfortable speaking in meetings and/or in front of large crowds, and indeed, in some of those meetings everyone may not get the chance to speak. I guess I’m just not seeing this as a huge issue unless Marianne’s job involves a lot of presenting at meetings and she just isn’t doing it, but it seems to be a more occasional occurence.

      As for why Marianne doesn’t share other seemingly small details at work–

      Maybe Marianne has gotten burned for oversharing at work in the past and wants to keep to herself.

      Maybe Marianne is the victim of past workplace drama and doesn’t want to get involved/too close now.

      Maybe Marianne is naturally shy.

      Maybe Marianne has very stringent work/life boundaries and just wants to do her job and go home.

    5. Mockingjay*

      Regarding the retreat, OP didn’t provide details, but if it was one of those motivational, rah-rah-rah team events I wouldn’t have spoken up either. (I called out sick to avoid such an event at ExToxicJob, having been through one already.)

      If if was a legitimate work review or planning event, then it should have been organized to elicit employee input the same as any other work assignment – and I would argue that you could have done that in the conference room during work hours.

    6. Sloanicota*

      I think you could also take “my quietest employee never said a word at the staff retreat” as a signal that your meeting facilitation may not have been working for the whole team at that retreat. Did you provide opportunities for staff to think ahead of time, bring written comments, break out into small groups, rotate assigned speakers? Or did you just have everyone sit in a circle while the mouthiest person ran with the conversational ball? However, you could also fairly let Marianne know that you do expect her to contribute at least once or twice in group discussions like this, and see if any of these ideas or others might help her do so.

      1. iglwif*

        Yes! I recently went to a work meeting where a previous all-staff event (which I didn’t attend, not having been hired yet at the time) was discussed, and MULTIPLE people mentioned how one of the team-building elements had not worked well for them at all and made suggestions for (a) ways a similar event could work better, like doing it in smaller groups, and (b) things we could do instead at the next such event. Successful facilitation requires at least a good-faith effort to make it possible and comfortable for everyone to participate.

      2. metadata minion*

        Yeah, this stood out to me as well. The last time I participated in something like this, each person was required to contribute, even for the stuff that seemed pointless.

      3. YetAnotherAnalyst*

        I’m actually pretty surprised that there’s an expectation to talk at the staff retreat! Ours tend to be presentations from On High about whatever the new initiative is, and then there’s a Q&A section that only gets questions if folks really dislike the changes.

  14. call me wheels*

    I have autistic friend who, though they can speak, much prefers not to and they would really appreciate a work environment where they were allowed to be quiet and still perform well. I’m not saying Marianne is quiet for a ND reason just like this is something I’ve encountered similar before and in my friend’s case it doesn’t mean they’re unhappy or anything, they literally just don’t like talking. I think the fact Marianne did come to OP when needed showed they actually do have a good working relationship for Marianne at least. And if she’s been there for years it seems she is probably happy with the level of connectedness she has already.

  15. STG*

    I have one minor disagreement here.

    Regardless of how aloof that she is socially, she should be speaking up in meetings on her expertise without being requested every time. I’d try to encourage that specifically and hopefully you’ll get some movement since it’s less about her life and more about her work.

      1. Pizza Rat*

        as they should. This is a performance issue, and OP needs to get to the bottom of why it’s happening–it may very well have nothing to do with Marianne’s innate quietness.

    3. Spencer Hastings*

      Agreed — if she’s supposed to be responsible for covering a certain thing in meetings, this is a legitimate performance issue, which is totally separate from whether the office knows she has a significant other or why she’s on PTO.

    4. allathian*

      Yeah, I agree, but with a caveat. If she’s a fairly quiet speaker and finds it difficult to spontaneously express her thoughts, she may need more time to say her piece than the rest of the attendees are willing to give. If she waits until the manager prompts her, she’s also pretty much assured that the others will let her finish speaking before interrupting her.

      So while I’d encourage the LW to keep encouraging Marianne to speak up when her expertise is needed in meetings, to also assure her that she’ll get the chance to finish what she’s saying without interruptions. That is, the manager will call out anyone who interrupts Marianne, even if it’s a supposedly collaborative interruption.

  16. Swamp Witch*

    I saw the headline and my first thought was literally leave her be. I used to get spoken to for not sharing “enough” about my life with my coworkers, some people have boundaries for reasons that have nothing to do with work or it’s just who they are.

  17. Elle kaye*

    Marianne is my hero.
    I have always wanted to be secure enough at work to be this way but the pressure of social engagement in an overly personal and extrovert focused culture has worn me down to the point that I prepare statements about myself. (25+ years in my career.)

            1. amoeba*

              Didn’t say anything about hating the coworkers, but about hating to work together with them – which is generally why you speak in meetings? At least where I work.

              1. Bast*

                As a quiet person who got shouted down and interrupted frequently when I spoke at meetings, I can tell you this sort of behavior certainly curtailed my participation in said meeting. It just wasn’t worth it. Had nothing to do with hating my co-workers or not wanting to work with them — but it was frustrating to be constantly cut off to where I figured what was the point? Just providing an alternate scenario other than something malicious.

                2. GenX, PhD, Enters the Chat*

                  I feel this!! I had a job where half the faculty were loud mansplainers and interrupters. There was no point in trying to participate once they got going. I just sat back and watched the mansplainer-v-mansplainer extravaganza and tried to be amused instead of annoyed.

                  It was frustrating to know I would not be heard on that particular topic, but I was not willing to go to the mat over it. And I certainly wasn’t interested in making the meeting longer by trying a bunch of times to get a word in.

          2. OP*

            This is actually the real crux of the issue and why higher-ups pressure me to “connect” with her. They worry she “hates” them. Yes, I realize this is a silly thing to think in a work context and it screams “we are a family.” But that’s reality.

            1. Bird names*

              Oh dear, I’m sorry you’re dealing with pressure from above to change your relationship with her to soothe the anxieties of some higher-ups about her personality.
              It sounds like she trusts you and knows she can go to you if something troubles her. You nudged her here and there and have now decided to double-check with Alison as well. I think your instincts are fine and I hope the higher-ups back off with the unreasonable personal stuff. Hopefully being breezy and cheerful in the face of their hand-wringing will do the job.
              As a rather private person myself I really appreciated bosses who could simply sit with the fact that I am one of the quieter ones, will do my work reliably and go to them when I have concerns. The ones who pushed back on unbearably nosy colleagues for me? Absolute worth their weight in gold.

        2. Bella Ridley*

          …no? Many of us enjoy talking with our coworkers and making our points heard and understood during meetings at every level. What an unusual take that everyone must be the same.

          1. GenX, PhD, Enters the Chat*

            Well, not all of us enjoy talking with our coworkers and are stuck dealing with difficult people. I’m glad for YOU, though.

        3. Myrin*

          “I mean wouldn’t we all?”
          Um, no, not really. I enjoy contributing to meetings if I have something meaningful to add.

        5. Nightengale*

          It depends if they are like our current “meetings” which are basically presentations/announcements with a nominal request for questions or discussion following.

          Or actual working meetings where input from multiple people is organically part of getting something accomplished.

          1. allathian*

            Yes, this. If it’s an informational meeting, post it on the intranet. I’ll waste less time on reading it than I would listening to it, and chances are I’ll retain more of the contents of the meeting, too. I’m a fast reader but things I hear tend to go in one ear and out the other, and I can’t really take meaningful notes, either. I suspect an auditory processing issue of some kind, I can’t both listen and take notes at the same time unless I transcribe every word they’re saying, and I’m not quite fast enough at typing to do that. I don’t know how I managed as a college student, but given the choice, I’d always pick a textbook over a lecture series.

        7. metadata minion*

          If it’s something that I actually can contribute, I would absolutely want to speak. I’ve been in my share of pointless meetings, but I like my work and sometimes it is genuinely necessary for us to talk to each other to figure out how a given project or problem is going to be handled.

    2. Ari*

      Agreed and it’s exhausting. I have taught myself to speak up in meetings and have made a few close friends over time, but mostly I just want to do my job well and go home where my real life is.

  18. Rick*

    She’s fine and probably smarter than you think. About these so called retreats, maybe she hates them like a lot of other people do.

    1. Bella Ridley*

      What? Where is her intelligence even up for discussion? Apparently she’s a great worker…I don’t think OP thinks she’s an idiot.

      1. OP*

        Thank you for this – not only do I not think she’s an idiot I think she has a lot to offer and I want to hear more of it!

    2. CL*

      I hate retreats. I’m regularly outspoken about issues affecting my work but quiet at retreats where the purpose is team building or long boring PowerPoints with company/division updates.

      1. Coffee Protein Drink*

        I’m not fond of them either for the same reason. Also, one experience sticks out: We spent a few hours analyzing communications styles. While people said they learned a lot, the learning didn’t make it back to the office, even though we all had stickers with our style (they were all birds) added to our cubicle walls.

    3. Alan*

      I loathe them. I would almost take less money not to have to attend. Lots of faux cringey “bonding opportunities”. Pointless lectures. Typically sleeping away from home and making superficial breakfast chitchat. Hate hate hate. People bond with people they like and any genuine bonding will happen organically. I don’t want to throw a football around with you or talk about my feelings.

      1. amoeba*

        We have literally zero information on the format of the retreat (except that it was a “whole day” thing, so I assume no sleeping elsewhere involved?)
        I mean, sure, there can be really bad ones, but to just assume the only logical explanation for the employee to say not a single word (!) the whole day is that the retreat is so horrible that everybody hates it is… quite typical for this commentariat, but not really grounded in reality.

  19. Czech Mate*

    I have received the same feedback from managers throughout my professional career. I am very frequently called “aloof” and “quiet” even though my work is always good.

    I can’t speak for Marianne, but in my case:
    -I have generalized anxiety disorder, and while it’s managed, I generally try to avoid things that will make me feel anxious (like small talk),
    -I’m shy and introverted. Plain and simple! It’s not that I dislike people, I just feel uncomfortable talking about myself.
    -I want to focus on getting my work done. It’s important to me that my work is good, so when I come to the office, I put my head down and just focus on taking care of what needs to be done.

    I’d also recommend considering whether there are some gender expectations playing into this as well. Men, I’ve noticed, are rarely called “aloof” when they aren’t as talkative, open, bubbly, etc., and I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a man being told that he needs to be more “open” about his personal life with his coworkers. (Haven’t we all seen that accountant or auditor that everyone lovingly calls “grumpy”?) Not saying that’s necessarily what’s happening here, but it’s something to keep in the back of your mind.

    1. Snow Globe*

      Yes, this. I remember once hearing some senior talking about a man who I worked with who was rather quiet. They were describing his quietness in positive terms as “thoughtful” and “concise”. As a woman, I’d frequently been coached to be more outgoing, and it really hit me how gendered it is to expect women to be social and talkative.

      2. Pizza Rat*

        That’s a really good point about sociability being heavily gendered. If Marianne were Marvin, would this letter have been written?

    2. Bast*

      Gender expectations is an interesting assessment that I didn’t think of. When I do think about it, I’ve known plenty of male colleagues who were not particularly outgoing, did their work, and went home, where no one knew anything about their personal lives, and the conversations that were had were solely about work, that sat and said nothing in meetings, and they were not hassled in the least for it. He would not have been called aloof, but a woman who is the same would be “unfriendly” or “not a team player.” In my head, I can imagine how these two individuals would be introduced to a new colleague —

      “Oh that’s George; he’s pretty quiet; we don’t really know much about him, but he’s very thorough!”
      vs.
      “Oh that’s Lucy. She’s a bit unfriendly; doesn’t really talk to anyone.”

      Interesting dynamic.

    3. Problem!*

      Yep this was my thought too. I had a male coworker who was equally quiet and not very outgoing. We’d come from the same extremely toxic project (we never worked together directly, he worked for a subcontractor we used so we didn’t know each other before but both interacted with the same awful management) so we bonded over that when he started at my company and we both had some form of corporate PTSD from that experience that made us very reluctant to open up with the new crowd. So in short, we were functionally identical with the same title, experience, and qualifications with only difference being gender. On our performance reviews I got nailed for not being outgoing and bubbly, he did not. As we were both Over It and not afraid of going toe to toe with management from our shared experience on Toxic Project he let me take his review with mine and ask management point blank why two identical engineers got different feedback when literally the only difference was gender. They walked it back so fast they broke the sound barrier.

      We both quit anyway and we’re still buddies.

    4. OP*

      You may be very right about the gender expectations but I’ll tell you we are a team of women in a company of almost entirely women. That doesn’t excuse it, but it probably gives you a picture of how that level of “connectedness” is expected of people.

      1. Czech Mate*

        Thanks for weighing in, OP! That’s really good context. Yes, unfortunately, sometimes the companies that are the most heavily skewed toward one gender are the ones that enforce certain gender roles the most. :(

    5. Here to Comment*

      I just want to say “YESSSS!!!” to all of this. I could have written this post myself, thanks for making these points!

  20. Snarkus Aurelius*

    I understand you’ve got good intentions, but you have to be a little more empathetic about what you’re asking.

    The average American worker faces a very challenging set of circumstances: wage stagnation, inflation, more work for less pay, mobile devices blurring the lines between work and home, socializing outside of work, the struggle for employers to accept that telework is already here, pressure to bring their whole self to work when they don’t want to, etc.

    It’s not enough to show up and do our jobs anymore. Now we have to feel a certain way about work and demonstrate it too so our co-workers don’t think we’re an emotionless robot and reassure our employers that they’re treating us well even if they’re not. The irony is that while you may want to know this person on a more intimate level, it doesn’t matter. Your employee does her job because you pay her to. You may not like that transactional nature, but that is what your relationship is. Nothing more.

    So leave her alone because you don’t need her to do anything more than her job. I really respect people like this because they seem to understand what work is as opposed to those LinkedIn gurus or unrealistic motivational speakers.

    1. STG*

      “It’s not enough to show up and do our jobs anymore. Now we have to feel a certain way about work and demonstrate it too so our co-workers don’t think we’re an emotionless robot and reassure our employers that they’re treating us well even if they’re not. ”

      Is this really new though? That’s always been my working experience for the last 30 years.

      1. Spencer Hastings*

        Yeah — I’m not old enough to remember this personally, but I imagine that back in the “work for the same company for 50 years and retire with a gold watch” days, that would have had an effect on people’s (real, perceived, and expected) emotions about work.

      2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        My experience, too. There’s about 10% tight-lipped, 10% overshare, and if you’re in the 80% in the middle, 80% are satisfied. Earlier in my career, I had to cultivate a bit of “work personality” to share; just enough social grease to keep everything moving.

        YMMV.

        1. The Kulprit*

          I too have a work persona, it is not my real one because work is not my real life. I’m present and pleasant when I’m here but after my shift ends I may as well turn back into a mouse.

      3. DramaQ*

        It’s not new but at least to me it seems to have gone into turbo drive. Instead of actually reflecting on what is needed to be done to retain people employers have gone really hard core into “personality” fit and being “a team/family”.

        It isn’t not getting more than a 3% raise when inflation is at 11% that is upsetting people. It’s we don’t do enough team building! It’s you don’t smile enough and it’s dragging down other people! (this is an actual comment I got in my review).

        I had a really bizarre interview recently where I was flat out told they didn’t care if I could do the job they just wanted to make sure I had the right personality. A LOT of the questions started making me feel like I was joining a cult not interviewing for a job. Not surprised to see that that position keeps popping up on Indeed.

        It’s like the “nobody wants to work anymore” excuse. It isn’t your company sucks eggs it is you haven’t found the right personality fit yet.

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      You mention legitimate concerns, but I am not sure they 100% tie to the letter. I was a manager for many years and the “It’s not enough to show up and do our jobs anymore” line stuck out to me

      When you’re a manager, it’s a constant push and pull to align people with what their jobs actually are, given that many (corporate) jobs change constantly. Just part of being a manager. Maybe 40% of people think it means doing the literal job description they saved from years ago + the paperwork portion of the job.

      Beyond entry level, that’s not enough. You need to be escalating customer issues, comments, and complaints, as well as software flaws, talking about potential opportunities you saw, sharing information and cross training.

      You cannot do this portion of the job is you don’t communicate with anyone. So being “aloof” does become a work issue.

      1. allathian*

        Even many non-corporate jobs things change constantly. I’m in government, and while the job itself hasn’t changed all that much since I started 17 years ago (yikes), the tools I use and the people I work with most often definitely have, several times at that (I’m currently working for my 6th manager at this job).

        There’s no real room for me to advance in my current job, and I’m not even particularly interested in being a manager, but I’m definitely expected to talk to my manager and teammates about any issues I’m facing at work. The constant demands of productivity improvements are a part of my life, too.

        Compartmentalization only works up to a point, and sometimes issues outside of work affect your work performance in significant ways. I’m glad that my close coworker who has the same job description as I do has been able to tell me about his divorce in general terms (no oversharing, I promise). I’ve noticed he hasn’t been his usual cheerful self lately and I’m glad I know the reason why. By the same token, when my dad was rushed to hospital a few years before the pandemic and we were unsure whether he’d survive a pretty drastic emergency procedure, I appreciated the way my teammates quietly supported me, and especially the way my coworker offered to take the more challenging projects off my plate for a while and let me do the routine stuff I can pretty much do in my sleep at this point. None of this would’ve been possible if we hadn’t been able to talk to each other.

  21. Lacey*

    The only bit it makes sense to address is speaking up in meetings where it’s appropriate.
    Because that really is part of her job.

    I’m someone who’s gotten similar comments about how I am at every job I’ve been at. And it’s super uncomfortable when people make comments about it and I realize they’re judging every interaction.

    She might actually end up talking more if people are more comfortable with her not talking.
    Or she might not. But at least she won’t feel a bunch of pressure over a non-work issue.

  22. Nancy*

    Leave her alone. She knows to come to you when she has a problem, you have evidence of that (her emergency).

    I worked with a Marianne before and she was great. I ended up getting to know her better than other coworkers simply because I left her alone instead of constantly asking her personal questions or making comments about her personality (like others did).

  23. PicklePants*

    Yes, I agree, in the nicest possible sense please leave Marianne alone.

    My colleagues probably describe me as a bit Marianne-esque, I come to work to work not socialise & I am a very private person.

    Wholeheartedly agree with how Alison had responded.

  24. TeenieBopper*

    The amount of letters that are “I have a great worker but they haven’t sipped the capitalism kool-aid, how can I make the a Job Stepford Wife?” is kind of mind blowing.

    2. Yup*

      Yes, this. Shy and quiet people aren’t broken. We’re different. Let us do things our way or check in to see how to make it a little easier to step up.

    3. Thistle Pie*

      I think there’s a huge difference between some bosses who expect you to be all-in, available round the clock, work needs to be your everything and expecting someone to contribute even a little bit to conversation in the workplace. I don’t think conflating the two does anyone any favors.

      2. OP*

        Thank you for this! That comment was really a drastic overreach from the “can’t we be friendly” question I asked. But I do see that I should back off and just let her be.

    5. No Tribble At All*

      I think this is pretty harsh. OP wants to make sure Marianne is happy and comfortable working with the rest of the team. OP probably wants to make sure Marianne isn’t being excluded or doesn’t feel uncomfortable for a solvable problem (“I don’t eat lunch with them because they all eat fish for lunch and I hate the smell” or worse “I’m the only person of color and they all asked me intrusive questions on my first day, so I avoid everyone”)

      1. OP*

        SO this is a great comment because she IS the only person of color on our team. I actually thought about including that in my letter. We are at a very inclusive nonprofit but obviously that doesn’t mean she feels immediately comfortable. Being as objective about this as I can possibly be as a white person, I don’t see any intrusive questioning, unfair treatment, or inappropriate comments, but I don’t know what I don’t know. I think I can only hope that’s not the case, leave her to be the good employee she is, and know that if she ever did come to me with concerns of that nature, I and my company would take it seriously and do the right thing.

    6. SnackAttack*

      This seems a bit harsh. What Mariane is doing is totally fine, but I didn’t get any harmful vibes from the letter.

      Also, FWIW, the “drinking the Kool-Aid analogy” is actually a pretty insensitive one. I used it myself until I read a book about Jonestown and how most of the victims (largely POC) were manipulated and forced into drinking the poison despite knowing it would kill them. They didn’t do it willingly.

      1. Sloanicota*

        It’s true, I think I learned about the origins of that phrase here on this blog, having never really thought about it before, and now I always flinch when I hear it. No need to evoke such a horrible set of circumstances – literally mass deaths – to make a minor point about going along with something.

  25. A Poster Has No Name*

    It me.

    I don’t generally say much about my family life, unless it’s relevant to my work life (eg. “I need to duck out a little early for a cross country meet”), mostly because my life is kind of boring and people have better things to talk about.

    I don’t ask much about other people’s lives because I don’t want to risk making anyone uncomfortable by asking personal questions. I’m terrible at small talk. Once we get past ‘how was your weekend?’ and chat about the weather, I’m pretty much done.

    Not speaking up in meetings could be a problem, if her input is needed and she’s not giving it unless people ask her for it every time. But that’s coachable–if there are certain meetings where you need her to speak up more as part of her role, then that’s worth a conversation. If they’re big meetings with lots going on, I generally don’t speak up unless there is something being discussed directly relevant to my role/expertise (though I speak up plenty in smaller or more focused meetings).

    Yes, I’m shy. Yes, I have some social anxiety/awkwardness/really not good at being social issues. Pushing me to be more social would just make me even more awkward and uncomfortable.

    Marianne is fine as she is. She knows she can be more social if she wants to be. Don’t make her.

    1. Beka Cooper*

      I agree with the “pushing to be more social makes it more awkward and uncomfortable.” In recent years, I’ve begun to wonder if my social anxiety and shyness is actually a result of people pestering me to not be so quiet. The quietness came first, but then the anxiety about it was created and then turned into a feedback loop making me more quiet and terrified to be in social situations because my quietness was seen as wrong.

      Like I distinctly remember things like being made to take “fun” summer classes in middle school because my mom thought I wasn’t social enough, and sitting in a room full of kids, my anxiety mounting because I couldn’t think of anything to say, and I felt that I needed to say something, because not saying something was bad.

      I’ve also started to strongly suspect I have some form of neurodivergence (one of my kids has a diagnosis and it can be highly genetic), and I just feel like a lot of my social things that make me weird are probably coping mechanisms that stem from attempting not to seem weird in the first place. Like now, when I find someone I’m comfortable talking to, I talk way too much and then start talking about myself too much, and have to remind myself to comment on things they’ve said and not go on wild tangents five subjects removed from whatever topic got me started on the tangent in the first place…

  26. FG*

    OMG let people be who they are. Read up on introversion – not the colloquial understanding, but the Myers-Briggs definition. (I know MB is unfashionable and even derided these days, but the types still have value.) We introverts exist on a spectrum and some just don’t see the news or have the urge to wear their life on their sleeve. THIS ISN’T A PROBLEM except for the people who don’t like it. She’s not *broken* and nothing needs to be fixed. Please drop pejorative words like “aloof” – that’s a value judgement that has no place here. If your culture expects everyone to be an open book and share everything about their lives, you’re dancing dangerously close to “we’re a family” territory. Selecting and rewarding employees – explicitly or tacitly – based on social interaction is a great way to kill diversity, in all senses of the word. When you start preferring people who have the same personality (or shunning people who are different) you’re building a monolithic culture that is detrimental. Unless she’s being rude, or not interacting to the level required for her job, her lack of willingness to be on intimate personal terms with everyone IS NOT A PROBLEM.

    1. amoeba*

      MB is not derided and unfashionable, but proven to be absolute pseudoscience without any base in reality.

      Also, introverts are generally able to contribute in work meetings, even if it might not come naturally to everybody.

      1. Hazel herds cats*

        “Aloof”. Wow. Such a judgmental word! OG, your report is quiet and reserved, two different things. Your judgment of her and negative inference about her based on that judgment is what is creating distance between you and your report, not anything your report is doing.

        Try accepting your report for who she is, an excellent worker from your description. See if there might be other avenues through which she could contribute. So she didn’t speak during the retreat. Perhaps she was actually listening to what others had to say (a rarity in my experience in such retreats) and would have useful insights to offer after the retreat.

        Diversity is, most of all, diversity of thought, experience, culture, approach. Inclusion means making it possible for people to participate fully as themselves, not requiring them to contort themselves into some arbitrary ideal worker.

      2. FG*

        Sure – I said “on a spectrum.” Like anything else not a monolith. I’m a pretty strong introvert but have been a corporate trainer & public speaker and most coworkers would consider me bubbly, at least sometimes. I’m not really shy, don’t have anxiety, not neurodivergent, etc. etc. Doesn’t mean my coworkers know anything about my personal life, that I love small talk, or that I’m not happiest when I’m just left the f*ck alone.

        1. allathian*

          Yeah, but Myers-Briggs is total pseudoscience with no value, and this includes its misleading definition of introversion. I’m an introvert in the sense that being around people exhausts me and I prefer interacting in small groups over large crowds. It doesn’t mean I’m reticent to speak up in meetings *when I have something relevant to say* or shy in social situations. I actually quite enjoy speaking up in meetings and having people recognize my expertise. I also enjoy some small talk at work and don’t mind people knowing a few basic things about me and my life, even if it isn’t very interesting, although I recognize my privilege here, I’m a middle-class, middle-aged, heterosexual, white married woman with one teenager at home, my life is so ordinary that I have nothing I have to hide out of a fear of being judged.

          But I very rarely attend any after-work social events, and the older I get, the more often I opt out. I like the vast majority of my coworkers but I don’t consider most of them my friends and I don’t really want to hang out with any of them outside of work. I’m not on any social media, but even if I were, I probably wouldn’t accept any friend requests from current coworkers.

  27. Misanthrope*

    I would add just one thing to Alison’s advice. If an employee says they don’t want the office to celebrate their birthday then don’t. And don’t keep pestering them about it.

    1. Productivity Pigeon*

      I don’t get the impression that the LW has been pestering Marianne about it?

      “She recently asked” them not to celebrate, and there’s no indication that I can see that the LW intends to celebrate anyway?

      1. EDIA*

        I have noticed that AAM commentariat sometimes has problems with moderate situations. Workplaces are not either “healthy and functional” or “monument to evil,” and in fact, there are infinite possibilities within the range. But sometimes commenters definitely jump to the extreme (mis)interpretation, even contrary to the explicit text of the letter, as happened here.

        I think some people do this to demonstrate their support of the LW or others involved (Marianne in this case), as though the more outraged one is, the more supportive the commenter’s message is supposed to be. It definitely limits the usefulness of any advice given, if the advice is responding to a different situation than the LW put forward. It’s part of why I don’t participate in the Friday open thread, where commenter advice is the main point.

          1. EDIA*

            You say yourself that you added on to Alison’s advice, but Alison’s advice (rightly) was directed to the letter writer and their individual situation, which is why your advice appeared to be addressed specifically to the LW, rather than to a general audience.

    2. OP*

      Just for the record, we said “okay” and it’s not a problem. Just an example of the ways in which we try to connect as people that she opts out of.

      1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

        From a birthday hater, THANK YOU. I haven’t celebrated my birthday since I was 21, and don’t plan to again unless I make it to 100. There’s no traumatic reason, it’s just not my thing. I don’t like aging, I don’t like attention, I don’t need more “stuff,” and I try not to eat refined sugars! In several jobs I’ve struggled to convince birthday-loving coworkers that I’m not just protesting too much, I REALLY don’t want to celebrate it, without sounding bitchy. Thankfully my current job’s HR person was willing to take mine off the calendar, but it’s great that Marianne doesn’t need to go that far.

      2. No parties please*

        I prefer not to have my bday celebrated at work either. One reason is that I don’t want to share a piece of personal identifying information among such a large group. The other is that it seems to me that I am doing everyone a favor—it’s one less thing everyone has to think about, one less awkward singing of the birthday song, one less time to find and sign a card and chip in for a not-great sheet cake from the grocery store. I mean, wouldn’t we all like to be spared all that emotional effort and money spent?

  28. MCL*

    I could have written this about my own direct report. It does stick out in my department that she’s very quiet, but everyone is pretty much fine with that. The only thing that I do ask her to do is that she participate more actively in meetings (and I have given guidance and coaching here, not just “say more stuff!”). There are some meetings that are “FYI” ones that do not require active participation from most participants. But if it’s a team or project meeting (we’re talking groups of 3-5 people so it’s very obvious if there’s a non-participant) it’s not acceptable to silently sit through the whole thing without contributing, every time. Additionally, I have no idea if there’s any sort of reason for this, but especially at in-person meetings she is both quiet and sort of fidgety in a way that comes off as “bored teenager in class.” It definitely impacts her reputation. It seems like she actually is paying attention but her demeanor signals the opposite to people who don’t know her as well. I get that most meetings are not exciting. But generally we can at least pretend not be be actively checking our watches for an hour or so?

    That all said, she’s overall a strong employee and has good written communication skills. If she doesn’t want to talk about her life, I am fine with that. So, OP, I think you just leave her alone. If she wanted to talk about herself she would. On parts where being silent about actual work/project conversations are impacting things, that’s I think where you’d have standing to talk to her and strategize about how to make her successful. My person has made a real effort to participate more actively, and she’s still not a huge talker but at least she does contribute.

    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      If she is fidgety during a meeting it might means she needs to be actively doing something with her hands/body in order to focus. If I just have to listen and have nothing to occupy myself mindlessly I pay less attention. that’s why I am usually quilting while watching tv. In law school, it was doodling if laptops were not allowed in class or actively surfing the web (everyone knew I was surfing the web but I participated in class without missing a beat). Keep that in mind. It’s not bored teenager, its that my mind needs focus.

      1. MCL*

        I would totally be fine if she did want to quietly use something that would help her focus. I have thought about this myself. This is a workplace that has staff members who use fidgets/knit, it’s not looked down on. I have tried to ask about what would help her focus in meetings (specifically saying that if she needs something to do with her hands to focus it would be fine) and she has not had a lot of ideas nor has she decided to go this route. So, the demeanor is still bored teenager. I have no idea if it would help or not but she hasn’t chosen to channel her energy in another way when it was explicitly discussed.

    2. iglwif*

      Oh oh it me!

      I worked for a boss for years who was a knitter and a doodler, which tacitly gave others permission to knit, doodle, crochet, etc. in meetings too. This was my first grown-up job so I didn’t realize it was unusual. Then she retired and I spent a very difficult year reporting directly to her boss, who apparently didn’t mind people very obviously checking their email throughout a meeting but told me I couldn’t knit or doodle because it “looked unprofessional” and showed that I wasn’t paying attention.

      After that conversation I spent the rest of the year trying to force myself to make eye contact so he would think I was paying attention, which of course made it almost impossible to pay attention, while I worked with my therapist on getting up the courage to quit.

      1. MCL*

        She can totally doodle or use a fidget device and I have explicitly offered this to her. Most people are on laptops in meetings including her and it’s not frowned upon. She has not chosen to use any of those options so she just looks uncomfortable and bored. I’m not sure what to do now. She has not offered any solutions when I’ve asked what would help.

        2. allathian*

          Maybe nothing will help. But is your employee actively participating in the meeting and clearly also getting some idea of what others are doing, rather than just waiting for her turn to say her piece? If that’s the case, maybe you’ll just have to try harder to shrug off your irritation at her “bored teenager” demeanor.

          She won’t change unless and until she recognizes that her apparent attitude is actually harming her career development potential.

          1. MCL*

            That’s where I am at this point. I have addressed it and this isn’t something she’s willing or able to change.

  29. Bear Expert*

    The only part of this that is material to the job is speaking up in meetings – where she has expertise, she needs to be able to advocate for her role and position without prompting. That’s part of having the expertise, people need to be able to rely on her using it when its relevant. This deserves more coaching, you can’t sit with her in every meeting and cue her when she needs to pitch in.

    For personal life? Non mandatory events? Sharing and attendance is to her comfort and her comfort appears to be none. Check in with her now and then that the working environment is supporting her needs, keep other people off her back about the social stuff, and keep it moving. The absolute most could be a comment in a 1:1 that you’ve seen how she is balancing sick time and work performance and think she’s doing it well, you trust that she will tell you if there is anything you can do to better support her. If she’s taking a bunch of sick time and that hasn’t affected her work performance, she is doing it well!

    In general, it seems she’s told you when she needed something, and otherwise handles business. Let her do that! Reinforce that you see she does that well and you trust her to continue!

  30. Meg McGee*

    I used to work with a guy like this. He told us he’d be out for a few days bc his wife was having “abdominal surgery”. We sent a get well basket. Later found out she was actually having their second kid. We didn’t even know about the first. Yes leave her alone, but yes also understand that it’s a little weird!

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      It’s not weird that people choose to keep their private life private. Something not being the norm isnt weird.

      1. Spencer Hastings*

        It’s a weird thing to lie* about, though, since having kids is so common.

        *or give this weird Aes Sedai truth, I guess we could say in this case

        1. Fluffy Fish*

          Who lied? A c-section is in fact abdominal surgery.

          No one you work with needs to know you have children. It’s fine to share but its not require. In fact having children can be used against you at toxic companies although that usually affects women.

          He didn’t walk around loudly proclaiming he had no kids.

          1. Spencer Hastings*

            That’s what I mean by “Aes Sedai truth” (it’s a reference to a fantasy book series, I’m 13 years old at heart, I apologize). It’s deeply weird to actively keep something as common as having 2 kids a secret, no matter whether you’re saying something technically untrue or just speaking in riddles.

            1. Roland*

              Yup. Sure, not one “needs” to know you have kids, but absolutely no one describes childbirth as “abdominal surgery” without the intent of deceit. That’s their right! But others have the right to think it’s weird.

  31. Jonathan MacKay*

    Work is work. Life is life. Sometimes the two mix very well, and other times it’s like oil and water. I personally feel like I sometimes err on the side of being too open with some aspects of things in my life, but that’s generally something that comes up in non-work related conversations where relevant.

    It varies enough from place to place that someone who is quiet and apparently aloof at one job may be surprisingly outgoing in other contexts.

  32. Young Business*

    It sounds like there are two separate issues here and only one is work-related. Absolutely encourage Marianne to share her thoughts and recommendations on work-related matters in meetings. It would be a kindness to bring this to her attention and empower. But DO NOT combine this feedback with your opinion that she needs to share more about her personal life.

    I struggled with this, too. I’m generally shy, especially in group settings. I needed to hear feedback to be more assertive and speak up in meetings. But then my boss started to veer into criticizing my timid character/personality. The fact that I wasn’t gregarious like her rubbed her the wrong way. I wish she would have separated her personal feelings about my personality and not have conflated it with being more outspoken about work stuff.

  33. Sparkles McFadden*

    As someone who sets very solid boundaries between work and home I can tell you that you’re doing everything right. Just keep doing what you’re doing and let Marianne be Marianne.

    The only area that is real a work issue is Marianne not speaking up at meetings. She’s not always going to be working for you, so you should have a frank discussion about that, but then leave her be.

  34. Anonymous for this*

    Another Marianne here! Not shy but with “unusually high boundaries” around my personal life.
    I have had to adapt a little bit over years of working in friendly, sociable environments. I have some brief prepared anodyne anecdotes about interests outside of work that I share when it would be really awkward not to contribute. Also I do speak up in meetings when I have something to say, but dear God the verbal ramblings people engage in, I just want to get on with my work!

  35. Fluffy Fish*

    “We didnt even know she was dating”

    OP focus on that statement. Really really focus on it. You all are focusing on not having details of her personal life as evidence that there’s some kind of problem.

    Personal life. Personal.

    Also your choice of words – aloof. Aloof doesn’t mean quiet. The actual definition of aloof is very negative contextually. Please do not refer to your reserved private employee as aloof.

    Leave her alone and when people make negative comments, shut them down.

    1. SeaMart*

      “You all are focusing on not having details of her personal life as evidence that there’s some kind of problem”

      I dunno. Even the most quiet folk at work I know have at least once mumbled something about how “we went to my in-law’s for Christmas” or something, indicating they have a partner in their lives. Spending 40 hours a week with someone and them suddenly having a big life event like marriage is not how the majority of people conduct themselves. The LW isn’t aggrieved that Marianne didn’t dish about her Tinder escapades – they are likely concerned that Marianne is uncomfortable at work for some reason, to the point where she wasn’t comfortable sharing that she was getting married.

      1. Fluffy Fish*

        “they are likely concerned that Marianne is uncomfortable at work for some reason”
        No they aren’t. Marianne makes them uncomfortable because she’s not like them and they are projecting it onto her. They think there’s something “wrong” with her.

        They (and you) are focusing on lack of information about her personal life as a problem.

        It’s not a problem. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like it. Doesn’t matter if it makes you uncomfortable. Doesn’t matter it you assign all sorts of reasons as to why someone wouldn’t share. Does. not.matter.

        A lot of people in this comments section need to get way more comfortable with people not wanting to share personal information at work.

  36. Not Australian*

    Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease don’t try to ‘get her out of her shell’ or whatever. Some people have worked hard to *acquire* a shell, and they need it to protect themselves. Yes, encourage her to contribute more at meetings where appropriate – but please understand that not having anything to say isn’t the same as being anti-social or oppositional. As long as she knows she’s got a receptive forum for any difficulties or observations she needs to share, that’s enough. We don’t all live to work, some of us just work to live: work isn’t our entire personality, and we like to keep something in reserve for other areas of our lives.

  37. Yup*

    Have a sit down with Marianne and see how you can best approach her with new ideas, opportunities, etc. Speaking up in a meeting is clearly not where she’s comfortable–nor is she comfortable being around people in a social setting. That’s just how she is.

    As a shy person who was bullied by my first boss who pounced on what she thought was my weakness, I implore you to see Marianne’s value to the company through different eyes. Talk to her one on one, see what can be done to make her feel comfortable, respect her boundaries, and include her in other ways. Maybe she prefers to write her thoughts down. Or she needs smaller group outings. Or none at all. Shy and quiet have their strengths, and I applaud you for looking for ways to help.

    I was so humiliated at my first job–things thrown at me, made fun of at outings, yelled at, mocked, and no one ever said a word to stand up for me. I was young and confused and didn’t know what to do. I would have appreciated a boss like you very much.

    1. Czech Mate*

      Ugh, yes, I had a coworker like this once. I had to go to a mandatory fun company outing, but there were hundreds of people in attendance so I naively assumed I could just blend into the background. Next day, I walk into the office and a coworker says, “Hey Czech Mate, everyone’s been talking about how weird and quiet you were at the thing yesterday.” (But also…it’s not like that coworker ever came up to me and tried to engage me in conversation during the mandatory fun event, so…?)

    2. Clisby*

      Nothing in the letter says (or even implies) that she’s not comfortable around people in a social setting. Not taking part in optional work socializing does not in any way mean she isn’t fine with socializing in her private life.

  38. Jane*

    I am the Marianne of the office at my current job, and I really appreciated the thoughtfulness of this answer, Alison!

  39. CTA*

    LW, if Marianne were a man, would you be investing so much time into this?

    I’m a woman and I’m like Marianne. I’ve definitely felt pressure to be a social butterfly merely because I’m a woman. And I’ve definitely been perceived as “not friendly” or “a problem” because I don’t give in to people who try to change me.

    LW, I don’t know your gender, but you’re toeing the line of Mean Girl territory.

    3. Mouse named Anon*

      I am a little bit of shy person. I open up with people I know, and my direct team mates at work. Otherwise I am shy. I can’t stand small talk with people I don’t know. I typically will smile at others in the kitchen. Maybe do a quick “Hi, How are ya?” .

      One day a man told me (female) “Wow you don’t talk alot or smile do you?” Taken a back I was like “Well I usually have my headphones in (true) and yes you are right”. I walked away and was highly annoyed. Like just leave me alone!

    4. Busy Middle Manager*

      I’m noticing this comment every day now (if the genders were different, would the outcome be different). TBH it really doesn’t fit in most letters.

      My team was 100% male at one point. People not communicating was of course still a huge issue. We still need to hear which customers were complaining or shopping around, what parts of our software platforms needed improvement, which processes needed automation or coverage, we still needed cross training, etc.

      Relationships, even if superficial, are important. The end goal in many corporate roles at the moment is to automate most of the paperwork/spreadsheet portion of the jobs and focus the work on problem solving and finding opportunities. If I have to cajole you to even speaking with people, it’s likely you’re not going to excel as the job requires more teamwork and thus communication.

      1. Cardboard Marmalade*

        I dunno, I think as a manager that frequently checking in with yourself and asking “is unconscious bias a factor here?” is positive and useful, and if it results in someone’s people bringing up unconscious bias in cases where the answer turns out to be, “No, actually that doesn’t seem to be the factor here,” that doesn’t mean it’s a bad question to ask. In healthcare, for example, not everyone who gets screened for diseases turns out to have the disease, but that doesn’t mean it was a waste of their time to get tested.

      2. jasmine*

        To be fair, I have felt in the past that my quietness and awkwardness and social anxiety impacted me a lot more than it did boys with the same problem. But that was back in high school where the nerd guys were accepted by the other guys so YMMV?

        I agree that this is something that’s been coming up too often without anything in the letter indicating it to be the case

  40. Kristin*

    Leave us introverts alone. The minute we “open up” we’re exposed to criticism that has nothing to do with our jobs. “Aloof”? People who are quiet are oftentimes content. Ask yourself if that is what is really bothering you.

    1. Risha*

      Exactly! People take it as a direct insult if you’re introverted and don’t want to always talk talk talk. Us introverts are not something that needs fixing. At a past job, people found out I was getting married (they found out by facebook stalking me, silly me didn’t think to lock my page down). They judged me and started getting cold to me, they would make subtle comments that were so offensive (my husband is a different race than me). They took me off projects and started freezing me out…I was about to put in my 2 week notice which is why I didn’t go to HR. That’s a real risk when you share personal info at work.

      Besides, if you can’t do anything to help me with whatever personal issue I have what’s the point of me sharing it? What is the point of telling all my personal business at work if no one there can do anything about it? People like to talk and gossip. Let the extroverts talk, and leave the introverts alone. If she’s doing her job well, that should be all that matters.

      1. allathian*

        Once again, extroversion and introversion have nothing to do with how talkative you are. Extroverts often talk a lot, but that’s because being in the presence of other people gives them energy. Introverts find that they need time alone to recover after they’ve been around other people because it drains their energy. Extroverts also tend to have a much larger group of friends than introverts do, but introverts tend to value the friends they do have quite highly.

        I’m sorry your former job treated you so poorly and I hope you’re in a much better place now.

  41. Irish Teacher.*

    I don’t mean this as a criticism, so I hope it doesn’t come across that way, but please don’t try and make Marianne (or anybody) feel connected, comfortable and appreciated by pushing them to be more open or changing how they interact with others. That will almost always make people feel less comfortable.

    There may be times when there is a work related reason to push people to be more open or appear more extroverted or confident or take more initiative, but it is never the way to make people feel connected and appreciated. “We appreciate you, so we want you to change how you relate to us” is inherently contradictory.

    The way to make a quieter person feel part of the team is usually to value introverted characteristics equally with extroverted ones and ensure that “opening up” is not required in order to be a valued team member.

    I will say as somebody who is more introverted (though not like Marianne), a company culture that “encouraged” opening up and where people talked about colleagues who were quieter would cause me to go pretty silent. A company culture that accepted introversion as equal to extroversion and simply a different personality type would make me more likely to participate.

    Again, I don’t mean to critcise the LW who is clearly trying to support Marianne and means well, but the way to make a person feel comfortable is to ensure that a culture values all personality types and that all are seen as valid ways to be.

    I think it might be different if the LW was concerned that Marianne was being cold or rude to others but it seems like her concern is for Marianne.

    1. Putting the Dys in Dysfunction*

      Workplaces develop culturess in a variety of different ways and for a variety of reasons. Sometimes that culture is what gets the work done, and sometimes it’s just a bunch of bros who want people around who are just like them, and exert peer pressure accordingly.

      OP would do well to figure out which aspects of that culture (if any) are necessary and which are not, and to lay off those aspects which aren’t. And no matter what, a manager should ensure employees outside that culture are valued by their peers and bosses just as much as those who fit in without thinking about it.

  42. Despachito*

    I think as well as the other contributors that the only problem potentially deserving to be addressed is the lack of communication on WORK issues (and that only in case it really interferes with work, not just because OP wants to see Marianne communicating).

    As for the rest, I think OP did everything she could to exclude the possibility Marianne would LIKE to open up more but is too shy to do it. It was a kind thing to do and coming from a good place, but I think now it is evident that the non-communication is Marianne’s preference, and she should be left alone.

    I somehow cringe at the thought I should be forced to talk about my personal life and/or be considered weird if I don’t. I have a hobby I attend for several YEARS and there are some people for whom I have no idea whether they are straight, gay, married or single, have kids or not, although I know their professions and we regularly communicate about the hobby and work. I take it it is their choice not to talk about these things, and I fully respect it and have absolutely no need to pry. Someone mentioned people commenting on their personalities, I would consider it the same as if I was commenting on their bodies.

    I think OP can have a clean conscience because did everything she could for Marianne, and now should leave her alone in whatever does not concern work.

  43. Angie S.*

    I have to be very honest to say that I would rather have a Mariane as a coworker than someone who is too outgoing and wants to talk to me all the time.

  44. Risha*

    OP, please please leave Marianne alone. I am a lot like her-I don’t like to share my personal business at work (unless it would be something that directly affects my productivity). People take it as a challenge to make me come out of my shell. I don’t understand why quiet people always need “fixing”. Her personal life doesn’t matter to the success of the job. There could be many reasons why she doesn’t want her bday celebrated-religion, bad childhood that causes stress on bdays, or simply because she wants to keep work and personal life separate. Her not attending non-mandatory events could be because she has a sick relative to care for, or young kids, or she has social anxiety, or she simply wants to leave work at work. I hope her not attending these events doesn’t affect the way she’s evaluated. People really seem to take offence when their coworker doesn’t want to be social (not referring to you OP, just in general).

    Same thing with meetings. I don’t know how your work is. Does Marianne have to speak, or is it more that you would like her to speak? If it’s the latter, please don’t make her feel forced to contribute. Personally, I don’t talk in meetings either, but I will if I actually have something to say that’s important. Some people ramble on and on in meetings because they just love the sound of their voice.

    You sound like a great manager-you supported her when she needed time off, you let her know you’re there for her if she needs anything else. That’s all you can do. But please don’t try to push her to open up more, she’s just a private person. Not everyone is an open book or wants to be one. Some people are more reserved. Besides, the less personal info you share at work, the less risk of other’s gossiping/criticizing/judging/etc. In my own personal experience, it seems women are expected to share personal things at work and be super social. I know it happens to men too, but I’ve only seen women aggressively targeted to open up more and attend social events even if they do not want to.

  45. Aphrodite*

    For gods’ sake, leave Marianne alone. She’s not your puppet to push around. This could be me in every respect. I believe in doing a great job; my daily goal is to make everyone else’s job just a bit easier by doing my best work.

    But . . . I do NOT want to socialize. I do not want to do birthdays, weddings or any personal celebrations for anyone for any reason at any time. I do not want to attend optional work events or go out for drinks or lunch. I am here to do my job. I am polite, friendly, share some of my Vine items that I know others will like, and always have a friendly smile and quick interest in everyone. But I am not, never, will never, be with anyone for any length of time. Just let me come in and do my job. I am not grumpy but I am not here to be your Pollyanna.

    1. Pescadero*

      I’m like you – I do basically nothing outside of working hours.

      …but it’s important to understand that in many workplaces, there IS a cost to that. There shouldn’t be – but there IS.

      1. Aphrodite*

        I do understand. I don’t care about the cost. I am closer to retirement than anything but even if I had another twenty years here I do not want any management or supervisor position. I’ve watched a number of people rotate through those and they invariably get so burned out they are walking pieces of toast (burnt toast, that is). My supervisor’s pay is double mine but she has no personal life. She can have it.

    2. allathian*

      I enjoy socializing a bit at the office, but I’m pretty good at reading body language so I don’t bug people who look/are busy. I go in about once every two weeks, and that’s when I unashamedly socialize with people who are able to do the same. I get most of my work done much more efficiently at home, but I like my coworkers so I socialize at the office.

      I also enjoy going to lunch with my coworkers, but the older I get, the less often I feel like attending one of our after-work events, which are fortunately completely voluntary at my job and managers have been explicitly banned (I’m not a manager but I’ve seen the handbook) from penalizing employees for not attending after-work events.

      Thankfully my work has pretty decent work/life separation and never get any calls outside of work hours. I may get emails and IMs, but I’m not expected to read or answer them until I’m back at work.

  46. el l*

    Here’s where I think the bottom line should be: Fitting in flawlessly with the culture is not her job. But if it will be, she should know.

    Because:
    Is there any area where her being quiet is leading to a performance issue? (Sounds like no) Then it’s not a now problem.

    But is it likely to hold her back from any opportunities yet to come that she’ll want, notably a promotion? Some jobs require that, some don’t.

    So I think it is worth talking with her about it, but the better conversation is, “Where do you want to go professionally, Marianne?” And then depending on what she says, it’s either “No problem,” or “Well, you’re quiet, and that’s totally fine, but it may be a problem for where you want to go.” (Should probably know this as her manager anyway)

  47. nnn*

    I read a thing a while back where you replace “but” with “and” and see how the sentence feels.

    Your employee is a great worker and she is quiet and aloof.

  48. Heffalump*

    I had a coworker, “Roberta,” once, who was somewhat aloof, but less so than Marianne. Once when I’d been working with her a short time, I forwarded her an online article that I thought would interest her. She wrote back, “I would ask that you not send me anything not work-related.” Of course, I had to respect that.

    Some years later I went to lunch with some former coworkers from that company–we’d all moved on. One of them said that some years before I worked there, Roberta had had an uncle who worked there (that part I knew), and he had a poor work ethic. She felt that she had to be all business and show that she wasn’t like her uncle.

  49. Publish Me*

    There seem to be more and more letters with non-problems. They basically come down to “this employee/coworker does excellent work, but I don’t like this about their personality. How can I change them to be my perfect image of a worker?”

    Let people work. Most of us need to do it. And it sucks for a lot of people. Let them do decent work, get their paycheck and go.

    1. Risha*

      And at work there will be different personality types. I don’t know why extraverts always have problems with introverts. Leave us alone! If my job performance slips, then definitely let me know so I can fix it. But there’s no reason to expect me to share all my personal business. We’re not friends, we’re coworkers! Maybe others should try to share less personal info at work, instead of trying to make quiet people share more. Too many managers and coworkers use work for their social outlet, and they expect everyone else to be that way too. It’s not on me to provide you with your social life, I have a job to do.

      Also, how many social events does OP’s job have? Why is it even a problem if Marianne doesn’t attend? Personally, I wouldn’t want to go either. I was there 8 hours already. And i don’t want to spend my own money to hang out with coworkers. I like the people I work with, but I don’t want to socialize with them.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I think this is fine, but I am always a bit bemused when I hear statements like “these people are not my friends / I wouldn’t want to hang out with them / I don’t want to socialize with these people” but also seeming hurt that others may find that hurtful, cold, or unfriendly. I mean, it’s okay to be unfriendly, there’s not a law against it or anything, but I think people might have to own it at some point!

        1. MCL*

          Yeah I think there is definitely a cost to being perceived as unfriendly, even if someone doesn’t intend to project unfriendliness (like they are shy, introverted, or just super private). It’s my experience that warmth and at least some sort of polite conversation greases the wheels of work relationships. There are people I need to lean on occasionally for help at work sometimes, like for expediting a project or to help sort out an issue, and building those relationships has been really helpful. I’m not saying everyone needs to talk about their life or offer small talk all the time, but people give what they get. If you’re in a role where this matters then building these relationships can be a real asset at work.

          1. allathian*

            Yes, this. It doesn’t mean that you have to share all the details of your private life (!) but being friendly does help here.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        I think it’s a mixture of two things. One is that as I’ve said in a comment that’s in moderation, some extroverts can’t seem to conceive of people being naturally quiet or introverted (and I do stress some; there are also some introverts who can’t conceive of people actually enjoying socialising and think everybody actually hates the office party, etc) and assume that anybody who isn’t socialising wants to but is just too shy/feels nervous about it and is actually unhappy and wishes they could socialise more but it just feels too scary to them. So they are trying to be helpful, but…it’s helpful in the same way that the person who tries to matchmake their happily single friends or the person who insists the childfree person just needs a baby are being helpful.

        I think the other reason is that just as there can be an assumption that people who don’t like socialising are shy or lacking in confidence, we also make another false assumption when we assume that people who do enjoy socialising or who are extroverts are all confident and secure in themselves, when in reality extroverts are as likely as introverts to be shy/lack confidence/doubt themselves, etc and some extroverts feel rejected when somebody doesn’t want to socialise with them. Instead of assuming, “this person dislikes social events,” they assume “this person dislikes me and is avoid events I am at.” It’s not necessarily a rational reaction but insecurities aren’t usually rational.

      3. Mr. Mousebender*

        Male here, so that alone has possibly insulated me from some of the pressure that a non-male introvert might face:

        But in over 30 years in the workplace, I have only ever encountered one extrovert who treated me as a “problem” to be fixed. No matter what I said, or how I said it, the guy just would *not* back off. It wasn’t just the constant pestering to go out drinking after work, which kept coming despite the fact that I always said “No”, it was also the hovering by my desk and wittering on about non-work things. Even noise-cancelling headphones didn’t deter him.

        I raised the issue with HR once, and made it clear that while I didn’t want him to lose his job over this, I desperately needed him to BACK OFF. They took it seriously, but even that only got me a couple of days’ reprieve.

        The guy was emotionally volatile and ended up ragequitting his job after failing a random drug test, so his particular problem was evidently about much more than just being an extrovert.

    2. Dinwar*

      The problem is, if you’re doing the same work for me this year as you did last year (in terms of quality, productivity, etc), I’m losing money on you (once you factor in inflation, cost of living adjustments, and the like). I need you to grow your career AT LEAST as much as inflation in order for my margins to break even. And as I say below, being reluctant to engage with fellow employees as whole people can objectively harm career growth. As a manager I don’t want that–not for you, not for my team, and not for my company.

      I will gladly agree that most managers handle this in very crude and ham-fisted ways. Chalk it up to the fact that most managers have zero training in managing; we get where we are because we were good as individual contributors. But that doesn’t mean the problem isn’t there, or that we should (as employees or employers) ignore it.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I’m not sure I follow the logic of the first sentence, but I’m no economist and my employer doesn’t offer a COLA or even standard increase in wages, only merit increases based on the previous year’s performance. I would have said inflation works against consumers when they make purchases, since companies control their prices and can pass increased costs along to consumers. I never thought of inflation increases as something to squeeze out of employees through increased productivity. If a company gives every employee a standard increase every year regardless of their performance, I guess it makes sense that you need them to be constantly improve or get out – I think there are such industries.

        1. Dinwar*

          “I’m not sure I follow the logic of the first sentence….”

          Let’s say (for the sake of argument) that you cost me $100,000/year. I make 30% margin off your work–$130,000/year. Inflation is 5% (remember, this includes overhead, training, insurance, and the like), and your cost of living increase is slightly above inflation. Next year you’ll be earning $107,000/year. I will still only be getting $130,000/year off your work. (Prices aren’t based on labor or cost, they’re based on what the market will bear, so companies often can’t increase prices to cover the difference.) That’s cut my margin from 30% to 25%.

          A reasonable argument can be made that I’m not actually losing money, I’m just not making as much. However, that’s absolutely not going to be how the executives in my business group will take this. I’ve had a 5% reduction in margin before. They were quite unhappy.

          The podcast “Manager Tools” discusses this in far greater detail, if you’re curious.

          “I never thought of inflation increases as something to squeeze out of employees through increased productivity.”

          That’s a WILDLY outdated understanding of the situation–by which I mean they were mocking this sort of antedeluvian managerial nonsense back in the 1960s.

          There are a few ways you can address this.

          Sometimes the employee needs to be in that role, and there’s no real way to increase the value output, and you need to eat that cost. You can make up for it via increases in margin in other areas. It’s one way in which a manager can run interference for a good employee.

          Another way–a better way usually–is to get the employee doing more productive work. If the costs associated with you (salary, benefits, overhead, etc) increase by 5%, but you’re doing work that’s 10% more valuable, we both benefit. You can get a higher salary or more benefits (as you move up the ranks) and I can still go from a 30% to a 35% margin for you.

          “…since companies control their prices and can pass increased costs along to consumers.”

          This isn’t really true. To an extent, sure, there’s flexibility in pricing, but not nearly as much as people think. Studies have found that prices are set by the buyers–companies figure out what the market will bear, then back-calculate the costs necessary to do the thing. There are feedback loops and a lot of complexity here (economics is an active field of study and how prices are set has been the subject of debate since economics came into existence), but what we do know is that companies only generally raise prices after they’ve done what they can internally to reduce costs.

      2. Publish Me*

        That sounds like a you problem, and also nothing to do with sharing your personal life and being besties with your coworkers. And I am actually quite a social person at work most days, and have actually gathered a few personal friends from jobs, so I’m not speaking as a Marianne myself.

        But, according to this LW, they are doing EXCELLENT work, so it’s not like it’s costing the company money to be a quiet person (????(?!?!?)??????).

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      I think a lot of extroverts/outgoing people assume socialising is something everybody enjoys and if somebody isn’t enjoying it, they assume the person is feeling left out or that they are shy and would like to join in but just don’t feel comfortable doing so or lack the confidence to do so. I think there are many people to whom it doesn’t even occur that somebody might be perfectly confident and feel complete secure and valued and fulfilled and yet that person might choose not to attend parties or talk much.

      If somebody is working from those assumptions and assuming the quiet person is feeling uncomfortable or left out or anxious, then it makes sense that a kind person would want to make them feel more comfortable.

      It just works on the premise that everybody is essentially outgoing and extroverted and that quiet or introverted people are actually outgoing extroverts who are just too shy to feel comfortable expressing their true extroverted nature and need support to do so.

      Of course, I don’t know if this is how the LW feels or not, but it does seem like there are a significant number of people who do, whether the LW is among their number or not. To the point that if somebody pushes back, they will often get, “oh, but there’s no need to be shy. We won’t eat you” or words to that effect.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Well, another conclusion is that the person doesn’t like you / their coworkers and is being deliberately cold to you because there’s no other reason they might be engaging in the socializing. I see this one a lot too! And it’s pretty common to react defensively to someone disliking you by deciding *they* are the ones who are wrong/snooty/whatever.

  50. Ready for the weekend*

    I’m a Marianne too, but my aloofness is due to past work trauma where I shared information about my personal life and other matters (like job searching) to toxic people.
    One of them would turn what I said around and declare untrue things to our colleagues about me. For example, I held a party at my home (with college friends) and this person made it sound like I purposely didn’t invite my friends at work.
    As long as Marianne gets her work done, and is nice to work with, she’s fine.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Bad past experiences can certainly cause someone to throw up a boundary. I would like to add this: even if someone is not an introvert or shy or socially anxious or escaped a toxic job, a lot of people may only have work in common with their colleagues. It’s possible to make friends, even lifelong ones, but depending on the situation, you can leave a job and that’s it. You may never see or hear from those people again.

      Someone who has strong boundaries between work and personal life, or views work time as only for work, may feel like investing in that social capital for little to no return is not worth it. They’re required only to be professional in their interactions, and that is all they will do. Which is fine!

  51. TheBunny*

    I’m a Marianne.

    I was pressured to be more open with coworkers at a former job. I left that job.

    If an employee is good at their job, meets deadlines, and is reliable, let them be who they are at work.

  52. Ms. Murchison*

    LW, this reminds me of a boss who also tried to “fix” me because I was too reserved for the type of workplace she wanted. The more she pushed, the less I trusted her, the more she resented me for being shy, until she started calling my shyness “insubordination.”

    Let her be. As people have probably mentioned above, your attempts to draw personal information out of her are not making her feel more safe to engage, they’re likely making her feel less safe.

    I agree with the advice to coach her to volunteer needed information in meetings without prompting. You may find that your team is so vocal that she can’t find a pause to interject, or that she’s observed louder people talking over quieter people, so she’s disinclined to speak up without an invitation. For shy people, we often need an actual pause in conversation in order to enter it. If you don’t already do this, try allowing some quiet pauses in your meetings for people to collect their thoughts before moving on to another topic. Don’t be deterred by the awkwardness of silence. I’ve found this a valuable strategy in the meetings I run.

    1. Sloanicota*

      You can also create a more structured way for people to share, versus assuming everyone will pipe up as needed, if you notice this happening in your group. It takes a little more work by the organizer but it’s worth it, versus putting it on the quiet people to solve the problem for you.

  54. MinionOnion*

    Separate work and personal. She absolutely should be engaging in team work-related activities. Not to speak at all is awkward if it’s expected to participate. Coach her there.

  56. HonorBox*

    There are times when I read the headline of a letter, think I know what my response is going to be, and then I’m 180 degrees different when I get to the end of the letter. Today is not one of those days.

    Unless aloof, quiet and shy is rude or is harmful to the work that is being done, let Marianne be Marianne. If you had to choose between someone who is good at their job, stays on task, responds well to feedback and understands your business but is quiet and someone who is the life of the party, talks with everyone, gathers everyone for happy hour, and is working at about 70% of optimal, which would you prefer?

  57. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    I was just telling a coworker this morning that in some ways, I’m successful because I’m remote and not having to spend my “getting stuff done properly” energy on “putting on a nice and sociable face for people in a work setting.”

  58. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    This was absolutely the only part that is work related and possibly addressable: “In meetings when something comes up that is clearly appropriate for her to weigh in on, I have to specifically ask her to comment. ”

    Other than that let her be!

  59. T James*

    As an introvert myself, I will say this…..there’s nothing wrong being an introvert. You make it seem as if there is. It is not something that needs to be fixed, or addressed, or discussed in anyway at all. The more you try to draw us out of our shell, the further into it we’ll retreat. Please stop assuming that because someone is quiet and withdrawn there’s something wrong with them. There isn’t.

  60. mreasy*

    This is interesting because I consider myself to be friendly and outgoing, and will usually chat with a coworker if we’re in the kitchen at the same time (I try to read the room though, not over the top lol)… but I am not sure I know anyone’s relationship status who I wasn’t already friends with before I worked here (small industry). It may come up like “my partner and I did X or Y this weekend” but I guess I just don’t file that info away. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that any of them got married? This seems baseline to OP but I actually think it’s very easy even for a non-reserved person to never mention this aspect of their life in a memorable way.

  61. Becky S*

    Extroverts gain energy by being with people, being alone can drain us. Introverts gain energy by being alone, being with people can drain them. There are degrees of introversion/extroversion, it’s not an on off switch. (my ap0logies for not knowing how to use colons & semi-colons!)

    1. allathian*

      Yes, this. I’m a chatty introvert, although people at work have openly questioned my claims of introversion. But on work trips, conferences, and retreats, I need to ensure that I have some time to spend alone every day to deal with all the peopling.

      One of my good friends is a quiet extrovert. She loves working in a noisy office environment, and for her, WFH during pandemic lockdowns was a burden. When we hang out, people typically get our personalities wrong because I talk a lot more than she does.

  62. T'Cael Zaanidor Kilyle*

    “Aloof” is an awfully loaded word to use for somebody who’s good at their job and just doesn’t share a lot of personal details or engage in office chit-chat. You could just as easily say that she’s focused on her job and maintains appropriate professional boundaries, while everyone else is a chatterbox. In reality, people have different personalities, and as long as the work is getting done, that’s fine. Please just LEAVE HER ALONE!

    2. Despachito*

      I wonder what that would look like if most people at work including OP were like Marianne, and Marianne was similar to as most of them are now.

      It could sound like : Marianne is overbearing, shares details of her personal life nobody is interested in, and tries to prompt everyone else to do the same.

      It is just about the angle you are looking at it under.

  63. ABK*

    I would go a step further than Alison and really lean in and support the strengths and preferences of this person. She doesn’t like to speak in meetings? Maybe if you know her input would be appreciated you could speak with her 1:1 prior to the meeting so that she’s prepared to contribute. You could even ask her opinion 1:1 and then share it in the meeting as in “Marianne mentioned to me today that a good solution would be xxx. Given that, I think we need to consider yyy. Marianne, do you want to add anything or is that accurate?” You could have email check ins with her twice a year or so where you ask what’s going well, what’s not going well and see how she responds. Just really play by her preferences as much as possible.

    1. Hyaline*

      There is potential for other ways Marianne could share, but this could be a Very Weird dynamic in some offices, to the point where constantly being spoken about in the third person and funneling all ideas through the manager could be more uncomfortable than what’s happening now. It could begin to seem like favoritism–Marianne’s ideas getting promoted by the manager frequently while others are raising them normally. And if a manager is overloaded already, requiring frequent one on ones for things that *could* happen in normal meetings may not be realistic–or necessary.

    2. Despachito*

      I disagree.

      Given that Marianne’s input is really needed I think this is 100% on her to manage, no handholding.

      However, is it really necessary? We do not know but OP says Marianne is a knowledgeable worker in all other aspects, and she may assume her contribution is not needed at the moment /there is nothing for her to comment. I’d urge OP to evaluate which of those two it is. Can she trust Marianne that she (Marianne) is in control, and if she doesn’t feel the need to say something there is indeed no need?

  64. She of Many Hats*

    I’m uncomfortable with how “shy” is used here. “Shy” implies a temporary discomfort with an unfamiliar situation when Marianne is actually either extremely private or an introvert or both.

    Being an introvert is feature not a flaw.

    Continue to coach Marianne where her introversion impacts her job the same way you would coach an extrovert who’s social butterfly tendencies or big personality is causing issues on the job.

    Look to the strengths Marianne brings as an introvert. It may be she provides an oasis of calm among all the bigger personalities, or takes in all the chatter and busyness and turns it into solutions others missed in the noise, an awareness of self that allows a better inclusion of others that might be marginalized, maybe even less drama surrounding her and her projects.

    1. allathian*

      And I’m uncomfortable with how introversion is defined here. It’s not a flaw, but it’s simply the fact that being around people drains an introvert, who needs some time alone to recover from that, while extroverts are drained when they’re forced to be alone and gain energy from being around other people.

      That’s not to say that quiet introverts don’t have insights to offer that extroverts, or talkative introverts like me, might miss.

    2. basically functional*

      “Shy” does not imply that the discomfort is temporary or the situation is unfamiliar. A shy person is uncomfortable and timid around other people. Marianne could absolutely be shy, and the word is being used correctly.

      Introversion, on the other hand, does not necessarily mean that someone is quiet. Many introverts are talkative, even bubbly. They just feel worn out by social interaction.

      We don’t know anything about Marianne’s inner thoughts and feelings. All we know from the letter is that she is quiet and reserved. This could be shyness, or introversion, or neither, or both. It doesn’t matter for the LW’s purposes. What matters is whether and/or how her quietness is causing problems with her work.

  65. Hollie*

    Many of the people who expect me to speak at the office are not actually interested in what I have to say. They’re just going to ignore me and do what they wanted to do all along, I find the performative interest in diverse viewpoints particularly unpleasant.

    1. Despachito*

      To an extent, this also holds for details from your personal life.

      It certainly helps smooth the wheels of social interaction but let us be honest – no one is so invested in Marianne to REALLY care if she has a girlfriend, a boyfriend or lives alone with her parents or a bunch of cats, and if she jumps ship she will be soon forgotten.

      So if Marianne feels like sharing little details from her life, because a bit of small talk does her good, cool. But if she doesn’t and she is a decent gal work-wise, does decent work and reasonably gets along with people, we should just let her be her and be glad we are blessed with a decent coworker who does good work, and as a bonus does not gossip, spread rumors or have hissy fits.

      Small talk is not so much about information about one’s personal life but rather about conveying information “I am a fellow human being, I am friendly and you needn’t be afraid of me”. It is so much of a default setting that lack thereof may seem strange but I think Marianne has other qualities that make up for that in this sense.

  66. Working Class Lady*

    As long as the workplace environment is one where Marianne feels comfortable speaking up about a problem, trust that she will do so.
    In the meantime, let her do her job in peace.

  67. DCBreadBox*

    Good lord in my last managerial role I would have KILLED to have a Marianne instead of oversharing, overly boisterous Ovaline.

    1. Middle-Aged Wasteland*

      Exactly my thinking. If Marianne is that big of a problem, send her my way. I’ll take 20 of her.

  68. TiffIf*

    Also – make sure you are not excluding her from legitimate work opportunities for growth just because she doesn’t shine socially. Make sure to highlight her work successes just like you would the social butterflies.

  69. Pete*

    Does the LW really mean to use the word aloof?

    I have had 2 coworkers that I would characterize that way. Both were quiet but combined with a slight sense of arrogance that coworkers picked up on. One had outside intellectual pursuits that they thought superior to our work (they admitted it when they left) and the other was from a wealthy family and they had little in common with us and really couldn’t which of her family’s several vacation homes she was spending the weekend at.

  70. Dinwar*

    As much as it feels good to say “Leave introverts alone!” I think that misses some pretty big issues that could easily arise. Like it or not, humans aren’t machines and we are pretty much hard-wired to favor the outgoing, friendly person over the hardworking introverted one. This is why in the past a LOT of executives came from sales, for example. Friendly, outgoing people also get more face-time with their managers, because they’re chatting. That directly leads to better understanding how/when to approach said manager for promotions and good projects and the like.

    In a team consisting largely of worker bee types, this may not be an issue–the playing field is already heavily tilted towards “heads down, do your work” types, so these biases don’t really come into play. But if worker bee types are the exception, they stand to suffer significantly over the course of their career in terms of stalled career growth, lost opportunities, and the like.

    If you’re a worker bee type employee it’s really important to understand if these are going to be an issue or not. Not everyone wants to be promoted, and not everyone has the same metric for evaluating whether a job is good. If you’re okay with that, that’s fine–but you need to make the conscious choice and reassess it regularly (just like with any other career choices). As a manager, it’s even more important that we be aware of these issues, because failing to consciously consider them means we’re doing these employees a disservice. Sure, advice that amounts to “Pretend to be a social butterfly!” probably is going to come off wrong, but that doesn’t mean that simply ignoring the problem is a viable option.

    1. Hyaline*

      Fair–but I don’t think we have any indication that Marianne is unhappy where she is, or wants to advance. This is absolutely the kind of thing that an honest career mentor could and should share with her–but her manager doesn’t have to be a mentor, and it kinda sounds like she’s poked and prodded enough about this already that Marianne is unlikely to seek career advice from her.

      1. SeaMart*

        “I don’t think we have any indication that Marianne is unhappy where she is, or wants to advance.”

        To me it sounds like the LW doesn’t have indication of that either, because Marianne won’t talk to anyone. It’s very difficult to know if someone is content with their role if they never say anything.

      2. Jenesis*

        And if Marianne is unhappy that her general demeanor is (logically and predictably) resulting in being stalled for promotions/not getting coworkers to do favors for her outside of their job description/thinking her coworkers don’t like her, she has access to ample resources to solve that problem, such as friends, family members, counselors, or this very website. Seriously, there is SO MUCH “How to Fake Extrovert: A Guide for Introverts” work advice out there, probably in large part because of how it can be converted into tangible advantages at work, that I find it unlikely she’s unaware of it.

        In the absence of evidence that she is unhappy I would just leave her be. She is a grown adult and she can use her words if she wants to reach out for advice.

  71. spcepickle*

    One other thing to consider – Marianne may be a Jehovah Witness, they do not celebrate birthdays or holidays. While her faith (or lack there of) should not matter in the work place – it could help frame the lack of participation.

    I am very open about many things in the workplace EXCEPT my dating life. There are so many reasons for people not want to talk about this, from not wanting to out themselves, to non “standard” dating arrangements, to just being done with people judging. Of all the things to make sure you and your team drop from consideration I would put other people’s dating life at the top of the list.

  72. anon for this*

    I’m an introvert and also have a medical diagnosis (yay invisible disability) that keeps me from public-facing work. If I don’t make a point of face time with others in my dept I am teased for being a hermit, left out of conversations, etc. If I show my face too much, higher ups think they can/should assign me work that conflicts with my healthcare needs.

  73. housecoatcarol*

    Oh my gosh. I will not even read other comments, which I’m sure are mostly spot-on. I just want to say that I am so similar to Marianne (based on the letter writer’s description). I do stellar work, get my employer’s top performance rating every year, and am unfailingly polite to my colleagues. Nevertheless, I have gotten so many passive-aggressive (or even outright pushy) comments from co-workers and past managers for not sharing details about my personal life, including for not saying who I am dating (back before I was married), for not attending optional events outside of work hours, or for politely asking for my birthday not to be celebrated at work. You want to know why? I’ll tell you under the veil of anonymity: 1) PTSD from being a survivor of (severe) physical abuse from male family members until I was nearly 20 years old which means I work with counselors and don’t trust a lot of people easily; 2) a few toxic managers over the years who did not respect my request for reasonable accommodations under the Americans with Disabilities Act until I lawyered up; and 3) getting laid off from a couple of low-wage jobs abruptly during the Great Recession just as I was getting comfortable. Those things affect one’s ability or desire to share things about themselves in a professional environment. Fast forward to the present, I’m middle-management for a large employer. I do excellent work, and I *still* keep my personal life very much to myself. I like it this way! I have a great group of friends, I’m happily married, I have fun hobbies, I’m on track to retire early, and I don’t need to involve my co-workers in my life outside of the office. This should not be something that managers try to change. Let Marianne be Marianne!

      1. housecoatcarol*

        Thanks, Allathian! I mean, sure, I can pretend for like an hour (two or three hours tops) and then I’m back to being myself with my office door closed, a noise machine on, and headphones in. But pretending and thriving are quite different. Part of my journey was identifying a career that plays to my strengths instead of my so-called weaknesses.

        1. allathian*

          I’ve done the same. I’m a translator, which is a job that requires you to enjoy your own company. There’s almost no synchronous collaboration and only some asynchronous (mainly limited to proofreading another translator’s work and having your work proofread). I’ve thrived in remote work although I wouldn’t want to be fully remote. I’m glad my manager’s fine with me going to the office about twice a month.

          Most translators I know are fairly introverted, some are more chatty than others.

  74. Don't You Call Me Lady*

    Agree that Marianne should be left alone, but at some orgs being visible is important if you want to move up, get promoted etc. If that’s the case here, I think Marianne should be made aware, even if she still doesn’t care

  75. Katrina*

    I’m a Marianne. Besides being shy in general, I’m very quiet about my life outside work.

    You know what kind of discussions you get if you force me to open up about my personal life?  Pokémon Card strategies. What tabletop RPG system I as the GM should use for our next campaign. What I hope to see in the next season of Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End. That’s the stuff I fill my nights and weekends with.

    I know if I talk about anything I’m actually interested in outside my usual friend group, I’m likely to get weird looks. I don’t follow sports or celebrities or anything else, so I’ll just smile and nod at that stuff.

    Just let me do the stuff I’m good at when I’m at work and let me deliberate the pros and cons of adding Fezandipiti EX to my latest deck in the privacy of my home with the people who actually want to hear it. :)

    1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      This is so entirely relatable. Thank you for sharing. I think I lucked out with roughly two-thirds of my last team liking anime, but anything else I’m into is typically interesting for absolutely no one, or is related to politics or my church and probably shouldn’t be discussed at work.

    2. Jenesis*

      What a disappointment it was when Game of Thrones ended, not just because of how it ended, but also because I lost my one thing that I could small talk to “normal” people at work about.

      I hate big social events, and I don’t talk about my nerdy stuff with strange people unless I already know they’re nerds. But put me in front of a tabletop game with 3-5 other people? Then I’m worried I’m going to be That One Guy who overwhelms all the shyer folks because I never shut up!

  76. H.Regalis*

    It sounds like she’s unusually aloof, but like Alison said, I don’t think this is a case where different = problem. You said yourself that she’s a great employee. It sounds like you coached her on the one place where this did matter for her work—speaking up in meetings when she should be weighing in on her area of expertise—and that that was successful.

    As for the rest of it, she can be on the far end of the bell curve with this and it shouldn’t be an issue for any reasonable employer, because her individual aloofness is not a detriment to her work. You threw out some feelers to see if she wanted to chat more, she clearly doesn’t, and her work is excellent. There’s nothing to fix here. She does what you pay her to do and she does it well.

    If others frequently comment on how quiet she is, just acknowledge it and make the conversation really boring for them so they can’t use that as an avenue to pick at her for being different from them. People who do a good job and take feedback without getting defensive are not the type of employees you want to run off.

    1. H.Regalis*

      ^ I say all of the this as someone who is extroverted, loves spending time around people, and would hate living alone.

      I would honestly probably be a little miffed if I worked with Marianne and she was this aloof, but that’s because of my own personal preferences, and it would be on me to separate that out from evaluating her actual job performance as her manager.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, this. Aloof implies a person who thinks they’re “better than” the people they don’t want to socialize with.

  77. Buffalo*

    LW, it’s interesting that one of the suggested posts under this is, “How do I manage an employee who’s terrified of me?”

    I’m not meaning to nitpick your word choice, but for me, “aloof” tends to connote a power dynamic where someone is cool to their peers or subordinates. And the power dynamic is going the other way here. One thing I’ve learned is that, even if we don’t wield it in a threatening way, managers have power that can be a little scary for some personality types. So your employee could easily be thinking, “Oh, no, I can’t share personal stuff at work, I’ll say something wrong and get in trouble.” That is a thing.

    1. carrot cake*

      I think “I spent the weekend going to the movies with my friends and relaxing” isn’t particularly threatening.

      1. mreasy*

        It only takes one job where you’ve been criticized or questioned for truly insane reasons to close off this part of yourself at work though.

  78. Hyaline*

    Going to add–even the meeting thing–as long as Marianne’s silence is not negatively impacting the team, it’s not actually a work-related problem. You may feel it is Right and Just that everyone talks in meetings, but it’s not technically necessary unless someone doesn’t share important information. Yes, she may be shooting herself in the foot forgoing the opportunity to have input, advocate for her ideas, and be “seen” as a contributor in that way, but that’s mostly a HER problem–and if she’s happy doing her job and not being noticed or advanced for contributions, that’s actually her choice and it’s ok. I would focus on actual issues that could arise–if Marianne is sitting there essentially withholding information that’s necessary to good decision making, that does need to stop, and the coaching should shift to “Marianne, I had to prompt you to share the copyediting schedule for the llama manual. We needed to know that info, and you know you’re the only one who had it–you need to provide information in meetings when it’s needed.” And then lay off everything else. Focusing only on problems is a better case for ensuring that issue is fixed than trying to change someone’s personality.

  79. carrot cake*

    “We know almost nothing about her personal life and didn’t know she was even dating someone until we randomly found out she got married. She never attends non-mandatory work events like staff parties. She recently asked us not to celebrate her birthday as we do the rest of the team…it’s so out of touch with the culture here”

    —-
    Erm – that’s a culture I wouldn’t want to have to work in. I mean, I’d say for most people, myself included, it’s not tough or considered intrusive to ask about how the weekend went, or whatever, but for a work culture to expect that the sharing of one’s personal life? Seems…sorry…cultish, almost. I dunno…

    1. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      No, i think the point is to just let people be. If Marianne likes to be quiet and reserved that’s fine. If others like celebrating birthdays and hanging out with coworkers that’s fine too.

      There’s nothing cultish about that

    2. hohumdrum*

      It’s totally fine to not be into socializing at work, and no one should be judged for that, but that doesn’t therefore make people who *do* like sharing at work cultist freaks.

      It’s incredibly fine and normal to share personal stuff at work- you spend a pretty significant chunk of your life there and your coworkers are fellow human being, not cogs in the company engine. I have plenty of boundaries around what I’ll share at work, but I also have made genuine friends at work that transcended that job.

      Refusing to open up to others at work on principle doesn’t make you more or less weird than someone more open. One is not objectively better than another.

  80. Not Today*

    Everyone keeps commenting on the “not speaking up at meetings” part, but I want to push back a little even on that – She answers when asked, correct? If you actually need more from her, fine, yes, please coach that, but if your meetings are weekly check-ins or the like, and she responds to the necessary items, I don’t even think holding her to the “Everyone should chime in at random” standard. I was very much raised with “If you don’t have anything to contribute, shut up” mentality – which means her quietness during meetings may in fact be because she thinks what needs to be said is already being said by others.

    I am DEFINITELY the Marianne. I did not wear my engagement ring to work because I KNEW those people would hound me about it, as no one even knew I was dating anyone – and I was right when one day I forgot to take it off. At my current job, my delightful co-workers are the only reason I’m still here – and I still cannot FATHOM why they want to have retreats and “fun days” and whatever else, and I never attend unless forced. I’m not shy; I’m not ND. I’m just a private person that likes to compartmentalize the areas of my life. Please leave her be.

    1. borealopelta*

      Well said! Is the input “required” of her at meetings something only she can provide, or more in the vein of an opinion that may or may not be shared? IE. Is someone asking “Does anyone know what day X will be delivered so we can move on with the next step?” If Marianne is the only one who knows that fact, then sure I think it would be reasonable to expect her to say “It will be here on Y day.” without being directly called on by her manager, although I don’t see why her manager needing to ask is a burden. Or is it something more like “What colour does everyone think would be best for X product?” Marianne may not be comfortable fighting for an opening in conversation to make her opinion heard, she may not find it valuable or necessary to provide when others are giving theirs, she may not feel her expertise warrants speaking up about the colour, etc. Some people are just very uncomfortable in social settings and do not feel comfortable speaking up unless it is absolutely, 100%, irrefutably required.

      I am another Marianne. I have always felt fundamentally uncomfortable around other people. It doesn’t matter if I’ve known them for days or for years or what the specific social setting is; the same “boundary” exists for me speaking up. I am shy, and quiet, and being around people is exhausting to me even if I’m not actively conversing or even interacting with them; I would rather exist on the periphery without being directly noticed. I can easily go days without speaking to anyone. That’s just how my brain works. I just want to come in, get my work done, and go home. Other people tend to interpret that as aloof, intimidating, rude, supercilious, etc. I think it’s important for people to remember Marianne isn’t being quiet or reserved “at” them, that’s just how she is and they shouldn’t read any more into it than there really is.

  81. The Kulprit*

    You didn’t know she was dating? So what? She’s there to work, not be your friend. Her personal life is none of your business. She shares what she wants, just like the rest of your org — she just wants to share less.

  82. Lilac*

    I think people place an overemphasis on office culture as this kind of unchanging thing. But things like hiring enough other people Marianne in a workplace formerly full of very actively social people and the whole dynamic would change.

    This isn’t to say “go hire more Mariannes so Marianne doesn’t stand out so much”. That would be really weird, because ultimately someone should be judged based on if they can do their role rather than social fit.

  83. Catgirl*

    Thank you Captain. I had a supervisor who brought up in EVERY SINGLE PERFORMANCE REVIEW that I wasn’t “connecting” with the team and made it very clear this was negatively affecting my career. The criticism was constant. Why he thought this would make me more willing to socialize with the team I don’t know.

    1. Pescadero*

      Assuming it’s actually true – would you rather have him tell you, or keep it secret?

      Personally – I’d want to know if I was getting dinged for something on my review.

        1. basically functional*

          I think Pescadero meant “assuming it’s actually true [that it was negatively affecting your career]”

  84. K Smith*

    Oof, adding to the chorus of “I’m a Marianne – please let me be!”.

    OP, please count your blessings in that Marianne is an excellent employee, and don’t bring up any of your “concerns” with her. Let her be! There are a million possible reasons for her behaviour (introversion, neurodivergence, hidden disability, she just doesn’t like office chit chat, whatever). Given your praise for her as an employee, it is absolutely not your place to comment on her personality/personal behaviours that do not affect her job performance.

    As a Marianne who’s been on the receiving end two decades of variations of “you’re so quiet” comments in the workplace, I can guarantee that she will not welcome your input on this topic. She’s an adult – an excellent employee by your own description – and she’s navigating the workplace as she sees fit. Let her be!

  85. MAOM7*

    I never ever attend after-hours work events, and haven’t done that for probably 30 years (yes, I’m old). My social life is not enriched by being “friends” at work. Friends can become frenemies pretty quickly in a work environment. I would like to not answer questions about my outside-of-work life. It is not their business.

    Leave Marianne alone.

  86. Not synonymous*

    Marianne may be shy or reserved or she may have had a crappy experience at another workplace and chooses to keep to herself and have firm boundaries.

    Introvert refers to how a person recharges, likely by themselves. Extrovert recharges by being around people.

    You can be shy or reserved and not be an introvert. Perhaps not as likely but still a possibility.

  87. CentralLuna*

    I love this response from Allison. As a shy person, it took me many years to realize that this wasn’t my biggest flaw in life and the workplace. I’ve slowly started coming out of my shell over the years and building confidence and the more I do the more I realize being shy or quiet is also fine because I’ve managed to become a successful and well liked employee from doing a job, not from being outgoing.

  88. I never have real plans*

    how often are the out of work events holiday-related? I had a coworker once who was a Jehovah’s Witness and didn’t tell anyone, and it made so much more sense why she would always duck out before the holiday parties or whatever. We started celebrating as a group differently (we finished a thing! let’s have cake!) and she was happy to join in.

  89. It's Me*

    As a Marianne, I would both recognize what LW is trying to do and appreciate it and also really resent any further pushing beyond that. So good job, LW, on what you’ve done so far AND for (hopefully) listening to what Alison is saying and not undoing all the work you’ve done so far by overstepping.

  90. Nathan*

    I have had a few co-workers like Marianne in the past. It can be easy for more social or outgoing people to see a reserved person and assume they must be unhappy or snooty or standoffish in some way! After all, if it were YOU acting like that, it would be true. But it’s not true for them. And that’s ok.

    I am fully confident that if you respect her boundaries and treat her like a normal human being who is not doing anything wrong, she will appreciate that and take it as a kindness.

  91. Snoozing not schmoozing*

    I worked with a Marianne. She was so quiet, but she’d sit in the lunchroom with a small group of us and we were always happy to have her there, but didn’t pressure her to talk. Over the years, she’d say a few things, like she got a dog, or bought a house, but no details. The day she came to my office to show me something humorous she’d come across, was one of my best days ever there. It felt like a shy. frightened, wild animal had finally let me pet it after years of feeding it.

  92. Silverose*

    OP’s letter could have been written about me. I spent the majority of my life living in a very conservative region and…let’s just say I’m not. Several aspects of my personal life could have caused me to be discriminated against, either overtly (because technically there aren’t any laws against one or two of them, or because an employer was too small to be covered by the law) or covertly (because employers are sneaky like that). I did my work, did it well, and kept my mouth shut with very careful compartmentalization between work and personal. Now that I’m living in a more liberal area, old habits die hard and apparently my quiet, professional nature has current coworkers assuming I’m a conservative prude – something I heard through the grapevine from a close friend who also works for the same company. If only they knew! That tidbit of gossip quite literally made me laugh out loud because I’m way more liberal than the person who said it; they just have no idea because I keep my mouth shut about anything non-work related at work.

    1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      This would make me laugh, too! The number of coworkers at a former job who would curse, then immediately apologize to me, always made me giggle. I always thought, “Do you have any idea how much I f-bomb inside my own head?”

  94. ProfessionalExpectations*

    I am very shy by nature, but I had to train myself to speak up at meetings early in my career because it’s part of the job for most jobs. I was hired to be part of a team that collaborates to get X done, where X varies by job/company/ industry. In order to do that I need to communicate, discuss, be willing to disagree, and come to consensus with other people. When I work with other people who don’t engage in this process, their experience and expertise is not considered or incorporated and that’s part of why they’re being paid to work there.

    I can be as shy as I want. I can keep quiet about any non-work topic I want. I can avoid my coworkers outside of professional interactions. I cannot avoid professional interactions and it is my job to fully participate in those interactions. Full stop.

    You get used to it. Sometimes you say something stupid or make a mistake. More often – unless you’re in a job you’re bad at – you’ll say helpful, constructive things that move the process along whether adopted or rejected.

    I loathe working with a Marianne because either they don’t contribute or they make me do all the work of pulling things out of their brain every single time which takes a ton of energy I should be able to devote to my own work not hers.

    Keep your personal life to yourself – no problem. Don’t chit chat – totally okay. You’ve got to participate in work meetings, discussions, and activities without someone forcing your hand.

    1. I wear my sunglasses at night*

      Word. There’s shyness and there’s social anxiety and trust me, you don’t want to mix up the 2
      (Ask me how I know as both a legit introvert—one who does like socializing but also needs to decompress every so often by herself—and a recovering social anxiety person).

  95. Capt. Dunkirk*

    At my previous job the culture was very toxic and I learned pretty quick to put high walls up around my personal life or it would be used against me.

    At my current job the culture is very warm and friendly with great managers. But the habits from my old job carried over and it took me years before I started to take those walls down.

    Marianne may be in the same position.

  96. The Grinchess*

    I am a Marianne. I’m reserved and quiet (until I have something to say). My work team is small and close and that’s exactly one of the reasons I don’t share and do not want people knowing too much about my personal life at work. And sharing, letting people know too much about your personal stuff (even in issues of emergencies) just opens the door to people commenting and their “advice,” usually on what’s “fair” and “right,” I don’t need or want that strays into personal business that isn’t their business, no matter how kindly it might be intended when given.

  97. The Nanny*

    I am very much a Marianne these days because of my past career in schools, where I learned through many painful experiences that being too social and open about myself was a Mistake. Work is work, I am required to be there, and some days I will not have even the ounce of social energy required to continue a conversation about my garden or whatever.

    I also struggled with social boundaries and over sharing in the past, so for me it is a protection put in place to keep myself professional at work.

  98. NurseThis*

    OMG, I am Marianne. At my last job there was a ton of pressure to share and vomit up personal info with the end goal of “we’re a family”. The harder they pushed the less they got from me. Retirement was a blessing.

  99. Tess Ailshire*

    I have a sorority sister you could be describing. I met her 51 years ago, and to this day know she has a sister (I learned that 5 years ago). And her mother died 5 years ago. Beyond that, I know *nothing*.
    And yet, she’s a terrific friend, and a loving soul.

  100. musical chairs*

    I am not a Marianne, but I do have experience managing people like her. I know from that experience where you’re coming from: seeing appropriate levels of engagement from employees is often a sign that other things are going well. Keeping a pulse on that kind of stuff is valuable as a manager, cause engagement can be a great tell for if someone is a flight risk, if there are interpersonal issues getting in the way of work getting done, things like that. It’s not necessarily about making sure people have fun/feels like a family/prying into their life, but making sure your team is effective by measuring some of the non-tangibles. Same issues apply analyzing quality of output or client/customer satisfaction. I get you, OP, you’re just doing your job.

    For Marianne, you’re just gonna have less data when it comes to her and you’ll need other tells. You say work output is good, so there is no immediate fire to put out. But you can also dig into the questions that “solid engagement with team” would normally answer. Does her not speaking up at the appropriate time impede others from getting good work done on time? Do people approach her less or are hesitant to reach out to her for help in times where that would be appropriate? Does that dynamic have a work impact? Does she have a role/do you work in an industry with any ombudsman type expectations where she needs to mention issues or concerns without being asked? Does recognition for good work in your team depend even in part on self-promotion? Are there opportunities you might be missing to give her that recognition?

    Those are the things I could focus on measuring/wathcing out for to make sure you’re not gonna run into issues later with her approach.

    She keeps coming back, which is the best information you have. My Marianne is doing so so great, and I’ve learned to adjust to her preferences a little and stay a bit more vigilant with her to good results. You’re already watching out for her by noticing patterns (like with the sick time). You’re doing fine. She’s likely also doing fine.

  101. Bookworm*

    Please, OP, respect that this is how Marianne is. So long as she is respectful and polite, don’t push her to be/give more. As a Marianne, this has driven me bananas and tells me jobs are never about competence or skill or how hard one is willing to work, but how friendly and nice and willing to do all the “social” stuff. This is understandable to a certain degree but do you really value someone who is more social more or is someone who can do the job?

    Thank you for asking, though. Many leaders really don’t bother questioning it so I’m glad you were open to advice and responses.

  102. RJ*

    I keep seeing people in here fussing about Marianne contributing in work meetings, but LW never indicated this is an actual work issue. She contributes when asked. That’s good enough! Some people don’t do well in meetings for all kinds of reasons. You don’t need to be vocal in meetings to be a good employee.

  103. 653-CXK*

    I might be late to the party here, but I agree with many of the other posters – even though Marianne is quiet as a church mouse, she is a great worker and does not cause any problems.

    Worker who prefer to be quiet and unsung seem to be much better assets than those with a social butterfly attitude.

    1. hohumdrum*

      kind of depends on the job, tbh. There are definitely jobs where being a chatterbox who loves to make friends is a key skillset. That was how I survived waitressing in a small town where regulars absolutely expected you to like, ask about how their grandson was doing or whatnot lol

  104. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

    I prefer reserved rather than aloof, but this is very much me. So much so that I will bring it up in job interviews in relation to the “what would your supervisor say you could improve” or whatever variation on the strengths and weaknesses question is for that interview. I am reserved, and I am very aware that can make me hard to get to know, and I don’t want to be in a workplace where that is going to negatively impact me.

    1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      “The soul is like a wild animal—tough, resilient, savvy, self-sufficient and yet exceedingly shy. If we want to see a wild animal, the last thing we should do is to go crashing through the woods, shouting for the creature to come out. But if we are willing to walk quietly into the woods and sit silently for an hour or two at the base of a tree, the creature we are waiting for may well emerge, and out of the corner of an eye we will catch a glimpse of the precious wildness we seek.”
      ― Parker J. Palmer, A Hidden Wholeness: The Journey Toward an Undivided Life

  105. Jen*

    I have a similar employee and I’d be fine with it if it weren’t for that she is relatively new and won’t ask questions when she needs to in order to do her job.

    1. Annie*

      That sounds like a different problem with multiple parts: developing the employee’s “sense” of when a question needs to be asked and what to ask and to whom, ensuring a psychologically safe environment to ask questions (even “stupid” ones), accommodating someone who needs to “get into the weeds” of a work item in order to even figure out what answers they need before asking any questions, appropriate ways to respond to challenging responses to questions, e.g. “What do you mean you don’t know what spout goes on that teapot?”, etc.

  106. I didn't say banana*

    I think OP deserves credit for thinking about this, asking about this, and having good intentions. A lot of comments saying “leave Marianne alone” are correct but sound like a reproach en masse. Marianne is okay, OP is not the first person to tell her she’s quiet. Just adjust going forward and everything will be fine.

  107. Anon5657*

    Leave Marianne alone. Its actually better if an employee knows how to separate work and personal life. I personally am a very private person and put up a high wall. but still exchange pleasantries like saying good morning.

    I am also someone that struggles to speak up in meetings. I feel that is bc I work in a predominantly who driven male environment and everyone jumps into the conversation and there is never a break in silence that I could feel confident jumping in without over talking someone. other times, I’m in a meeting with managers and I’m the only analyst and don’t feel comfortable talking when there are people higher levels above me. could it be a title change? does Marianne feel challenged at work, or is she reserved bc she doesn’t really care about going above and beyond anymore?

    1. Teapot Wrangler*

      I do wonder how useful the retreat was if literally all day at a work event she had nothing to contribute but definitely focus on that and speaking up where relevant in meetings. For the rest, I hear that you feel she is under-valued by others because she’s quiet but really that’s not her problem as much as theirs.

  108. AM*

    As someone who can relate to Marianne, I feel like Allison’s answer healed something inside of me. I appreciate it.

  109. Bill and Heather's Excellent Adventure*

    The best thing you can do for Marianne is to support her when her coworkers or people higher up question her quiet nature and make it clear that it’s not a crime and she’s an excellent worker.

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