open thread – September 13, 2024

by Alison Green on September 13, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 957 comments }

{ 957 comments… read them below }

  1. ThinMint*

    I have been promoted into a new role that is merging two existing teams within one department. We have been asked to come up with a new team name that represents us as a whole. If this is an activity I want to engage my team on, are there any suggestions on how exactly I would do that?

    Do I have everyone submit ideas ahead of time? Do I have us brainstorm keywords for what we do and then we pick from those words? Use AI and show them those suggestions to start from? I don’t want to come in unprepared but I think I’l just get blank stares back at me.

    1. Echo*

      What do the two teams do? What will the new team do? Do other teams in your company have names, beyond descriptions of what they actually do (the IT team, marketing team, operations team)?

    2. Sloanicota*

      I say have them submit suggestions anonymously and then you can cut the “boaty mcboatface” type options (if that’s what you want – maybe you’d love to be Team Boaty) and have them vote on an acceptable subset. They will feel ownership but you’ll keep some wheels on the process.

      1. Sneaky Squirrel*

        This is my thought too. If you have any concerns of your team not taking the request seriously or just want your own weight put in, have them contribute privately to you first and then you can filter the list to just a select few good ones and put it out for a vote.

    3. Super Duper Anon*

      I would combine all three ideas. Send the team an email ahead of a scheduled brainstorming session. In the email, outline the goal and provide a few examples (generated by AI or whatever) as guides. Then let them think about it for a bit. In the brainstorming session, have everyone throw out ideas and write them all down. Then set up a voting system of some kind, preferably online afterwards.

    4. HailRobonia*

      I’d say loop your new team in – multiple brains working on this is probably best (there might be an “obvious in hindsight” name that an individual might have overlooked).

      I think the AI might also be a good source as well, especially for brainstorming. And you can probably do something like “create a succinct name for a department that combines two teams that were previously X and Y. The name should have an element pertaining to [something important about the function(s) of the team] .”

      If all else fails, go with “The Fighting Mongooses.”

    5. OrdinaryJoe*

      I’m new to the idea of Team Names … is it suppose to be something fun or serious/official that’s now representing the merged functions of the two departments?

      If it’s fun, I’d throw it out to the group and maybe turn it into a fun working lunch meeting where you cover other light-ish New Team issues.

      1. HailRobonia*

        My guess it’s something functional. For example, let’s say one team was in charge of customer success, and the other team was marketing. The new team might be “Client Engagement.”

    8. JFC*

      I would do two things. First, solicit ideas from the new department. I’d leave it pretty open at the early stage so people feel free to be creative, knowing you’ll be able to narrow things down later. Second, throw a few prompts into Chat GPT and see what comes up. Add those to the suggestion list. I’ve found it is a great tool for things like this. Make a master list combining the team ideas and AI ones. There’s a good chance you’ll start to see some similarities and that will make it easier to hone in on the final best choice.

    9. HonorBox*

      Have people submit questions in advance. That gives them time to think about it and make suggestions versus putting them on the spot in a meeting. Then you can pull together suggestions, make some edits, or see if there’s a pervasive theme through the suggestions. Then have everyone get together to discuss and find consensus.

    10. Pay no attention...*

      Create an online survey with a few suggestions ranging from basic literal what you do — IT Helpdesk — down to an aspirational description like Technology Excellence and Effectiveness, then leave an Other space for them to fill in their own if they choose to. I wouldn’t do a team brainstorming — IME those become a waste of time.

    11. Beth**

      I am anti having a vote on these things. Work is not a democracy.

      We have had this a couple of time in teams I’ve been in where a new manager came in and didn’t think the existing team name was a good description of what we did. (To be fair, in one case, we were Team 2 in a department where all the other numbered teams had changed to descriptions of what their teams did. I thought it was hilarious just to be Team 2 when everyone else had descriptive names, but new boss thought otherwise.)

      In both cases, management sought suggestions from team members but ultimately made the decision themselves of which of the suggestions to go with. In once case, they made it an explicit contest with two prizes: one for the funniest name (as judged by the senior manager) and the other for the name that actually gets chosen. That allowed people to get their creative side out (one suggestion was a ridiculously long name that anagrammed to SPICE GIRLS) but also to make serious suggestions.

      1. ArtK*

        I agree that voting can be problematic. The last thing OP wants is to end up on the “Teamy McTeamFace Team.”

        1. Beth**

          Not just that. Sometimes people don’t think about what’s important.

          In Team 2, one of my team members was constantly complaining about the team name and started coming up with alternatives. The team was made up of, say, one person who groomed llamas and alpacas, two people who just groomed alpacas and one person who groomed sheep. The alpaca groomer kept suggesting team names that started with “alpacas”, justifying it because “alpacas” came first alphabetically OR that the acronym for the options that started with an A were better. I had to calmly explain that if we put alpacas first, other people would reasonably assume this was the bulk of our team’s work and that everyone in the team would be able to answer questions about alpacas.

          His other suggestions all had the word “ruminants” in them, even though there was already a team whose name started with “ruminants”. I had to point out that we didn’t want people to get confused between us and the other ruminants team.

          In the end, we went for something that started with “llamas” — the bulk of our team’s work, but still had a cool acronym. This was chosen by managers, not the team.

          1. Beth**

            Sorry, that should have been “one person who groomed llamas and alpacas, two people who just groomed **llamas”* and one person who groomed sheep.”

            The perils of making up examples as you go along…

        2. Roland*

          Well, voting doesn’t have to be binding, and it can be limited to names OP is cool with. They will not be forced into a teamname by a vote.

      2. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        I also think a vote is too much, but I do think getting input may be important in this instance because it is combining two teams and you don’t want to have a name that makes one team feel all important and the other team feel like the little sister of the “real” team.

    12. CL*

      Having been through this exercise, collect input as it will make people feel like you respect their ideas. Shrink the list to the ones that might actually work. You can share the list of finalists and gather feedback but don’t do a public vote. Be sure to consider acronyms and abbreviations for any unfortunate results and consider if the new name creates any confusion with other department names. Good luck!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Consider what the new name’s acronym would mean to your customers–especially if it’s public-facing, especially if you have more than one language around.

      2. Anita Brayke*

        Once long ago, I was part of a department that had to pick a new name. We handled funding for research at a university. I can’t remember the actual words at this point, but the acronym was C. A. R. C. R. A. S. H. (yes, I worked to make it into carcrash, it’s not like I tried to come up with something good). I was a lot younger and dumber then.

    13. Medium Sized Manager*

      I am doing this with my team right now! I told them to think of ideas in advance and then put the parameters of “I need to be able to say this to our COO with a straight face.” They are aware that I have the power of veto but the goal is for us to vote in our next meeting on some ideas. There’s also some ideas if you google work team names + your industry.

    14. Mostly Managing*

      You have many good ideas.
      May I present, “What not to do”.

      Years ago, my husband worked in the Business Services department. There were a lot of jokes about the department being BS.
      Then there was a reorg. Business Services was merging with Finance.
      The announcement was made in a company-wide meeting, that there would be a new dept called “Finance & Business Services.”
      One brave woman stood up and said, “You mean being BS wasn’t enough, now we have to be F ‘n’ BS?”

      The VP turned a marvelous shade of red and said the name had not been finalised.

  2. Stumped*

    I run a small-town media company that covers high school sports games. One member of the broadcast team always seems hesitant about driving to away games, driving in bad weather, and driving after dark. One time he left work early without permission (and without adequate coverage) because we had a decent thunderstorm coming in and he wanted to beat it home. In the few times he has had to do games alone(small school sports, single person coverage), he has his grandfather go with him. When other staffers are going as well, he always catches a ride with someone else. It happened this week that his usual car pool buddy isn’t available. I told him we’d pay for his mileage, just like we do everyone else, but he ended up getting a ride with another staffer (who is not upset, but is going 25 miles out of his way to accommodate). It wouldn’t necessarily be my problem except this guy wants to be the lead for a sports team, and at least in the beginning, it would be a single coverage team and he’d have to drive to away games, sometimes in bad weather and almost always at dark. At this point, I have to talk to him about it. The guy he usually rides with was afraid I’d be mad that the other employee couldn’t tag along this week(I assured that’s not the case).

    Any tips on saying “what’s going on with the non-driving thing,” and, I can’t move you up b/c you have to drive to move up.” Before anyone suggests it or asks, we pay generous mileage, driving is in the job description and he has a newer model car (which isn’t my concern any way, he has to drive for the job). We are also in rural East Texas with no public transportation and no taxi or uber services(but we do have door dash).

    1. learnedthehardway*

      I would deal with the job expectations and ask if he can meet them – ie. “You would have to travel to away games regularly, involving drives of X miles back and forth, and I can’t assign anyone to go with you. The expectation is that you would be at these games regardless of the weather (barring tornadoes or hurricanes, of course). Can you commit to this?”

      It sounds like there’s some kind of anxiety issue at play here, but even if you as the employer have to accommodate ADA issues that are reasonably evident (whether disclosed or not), you also have to accommodate only up to a reasonable level. Check with your legal counsel on this – I’m no expert – but it seems to me that the requirement for the job is reasonable, and that if you’re not convinced this worker can really do the job as laid out, then you should look elsewhere.

      1. Miss Patty*

        Also ADA only applies to employers with 15 or more employees. If they have less than 15, they do not have to reasonably accommodate (although I would agree that trying to accommodate is best practice).

    2. I should really pick a name*

      I’d narrow the question a bit.

      “We can’t always rely on someone being available to drive you. Can you suggest alternatives that would work for you?
      In particular, being able to transport yourself is a requirement to be a lead for this team, so we can’t consider you for that role without a solution.”

      You don’t need to know why he doesn’t drive himself, you just need to know if there’s a way to work around it. He’s welcome to volunteer the reason himself, but it’s not information you have to have.

    3. Nesta*

      It sounds like he might have anxiety about driving, which I do as well.

      I think the thing to do is to be matter of fact without asking him to explain. Sit him down to talk about the lead reporter position and let him know that driving is absolutely a requirement of the role. Tell him how much driving you would expect it to entail, and say this is a thing he would need to have a plan to work on improving if he wanted this position. There are driving schools that can work with clients with anxiety or who lack experience driving on the highway –another thing that keeps people from driving; you could mention these resources, if it is an issue.

      If he understands that there won’t be any chance to get that job unless you know you can trust him to get to the events without his colleagues or to stay in the event of rainy weather, than you have done him a service. Anxiety is really something he has to solve on his own (with professional help) so having it made clear this is what is holding him back will let him decide what to do.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Yeah, when I was trying to move up in my job, it was clear that a direct promotion from reception would usually mean being in a more hands-on, domestic team lead position across multiple clinics, and someone who couldn’t drive would be at an extreme disadvantage because of the need to get to more remote sites without being at the mercy of bus schedules and transport supplies across the patch. It wouldn’t have interested me at all, but it helped me to talk to someone who knew what roles were available through the org and what the likely needs of a particular step would be.

        DTL is a great job for someone who would enjoy it and can drive, and an important role for keeping clinical sites clean and tidy for patient use. But realistically discussing it with her ahead of time made it clear what the options actually were. (And we do have DTLs who work in one place and on one site, but those are large hospitals that need their own teams, and the area I worked in is a cluster of village clinics supervised from a major town. Practical experience of hospital cleaning work was something I didn’t have either.)

    4. Coelura*

      I’d just be clear about it. Tell the staffer that being a lead requires driving and potentially staying when there is threatening weather. Ask how he’d manage this requirement.

    5. Eeyore's Missing Tale*

      I’d start of with asking him why he wants to move to the be the lead of the sports team. Then, explain that if he wants to be able to do that, he needs to be able to get to get to the games and stay as long a required regardless of daylight and weather and you’ve noticed that he seems to have problems doing that right now.

    6. Solstice*

      Disclaimer: I might be projecting here, as someone else who Does Not Drive At Night, but for me it’s a function of severe astigmatism. Headlights, especially the newer LED headlights, are blinding starbursts of luminous hatred, and while I get by fine in the daytime, or in circumstances where I know the streets well, if I am going to be facing headlights (which happens in bad weather, as well as after dark) then I am in trouble.

      So while you can definitely ask, you need to understand it might not be something like laziness or wanting to get out of it. There are legitimate reasons for not wanting to drive at night.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes but it’s also a legitimate job requirement. I say that as someone who is limited in driving at night. And also works in media. If you can’t cover it, it’s a problem.

        1. Bast*

          I am in the same boat as Solstice, however, I don’t think they were trying to imply that it isn’t a job requirement. The original poster made it seem like, “I have no clue why my employee is doing this” and Solstice provided a reason for why this may be happening other than the person just being lazy or unmotivated.

          I agree that this may not be the job for them if they cannot meet this requirement, but I don’t think Solstice was trying to say otherwise.

          1. OP*

            OP here. No, I think there is a legitimate reason, but I’m also kind of like, you knew this was a big part of it when you signed on. We are under ADA threshold on employees, but the only accommodation for this is keeping him at the junior level. And that is fine on my end, but it won’t be long-term fine for him.

            1. Sharon*

              Just a caution – “driving” in and of itself should normally not be a requirement. It’s reliable and timely transportation that’s required. If someone has a hired on-call driver that should be sufficient to meet job requirements.

                1. Huh?*

                  It’s possible he could rely on transportation from someone else such as a person he pays to drive him (a hired on-call driver), a family member, or a submissive if he’s a Dom (oops, wrong letter).

            2. JSPA*

              You could mention that you would be delighted to give him a solid recommendation if he wants to try his luck at a newspaper in a more urban setting, where he might benefit from public transport. But the way newsrooms are going, he will often find himself in a workplace below the ADA limit (if this is indeed a disability thing).

      2. dontbeadork*

        I also have astigmatism and may get migraines at random, and I find that yellow clip-on “sunglasses” help. I have the kind I can flip up or down so if I don’t need them (no on-coming traffic and the business displays are not the gosh-awful super bright LED displays) they’re not affecting my view but a quick touch when I see an on-coming vehicle prevents that starburst of pain.

      3. fhqwhgads*

        I don’t think LW is suggesting laziness. But if you know you can’t drive at night, and you know your job is going alone to sports events that can only be reached by driving… regardless of how legitimate the reason for not driving at night is, dude’s got conflicting needs with the function of the role.

    7. Claire*

      I think the kindest thing to do is to identify the pattern and be clear about the requirements of the job.

      “Bilbo, I’ve noticed you don’t seem comfortable driving at night or during rainy weather. I know you have aspirations to be Head of Sportscasting. It’s important you know that travel is a requirement for that job and there is required travel at night and during rainy weather. While carpooling is always encouraged when available, this role can’t rely on rides from other team members. If you’re keen to move into this role, I’d need to understand how you plan to manage the travel aspects.”

      If he challenges you on his comfort level, you don’t have to engage with that discussion, just reiterate that, “To promote you to this role, I’d need to see that you’re willing to travel at night and during rainy weather.”

      1. Tio*

        “While carpooling is always encouraged when available”

        Is it? It doesn’t sound like it is, and given that he’s asked someone to go 25 miles (!) out of their way on his behalf, I would not encourage it for someone like him. That 25 miles is a BIG ask; it’s not like they live in the same neighborhood and were going to the same spot. Especially since you want to see more of him proving he will drive on his own and not avoid it, I would give this particular person anything they could twist into an excuse for driving less.

        1. OP*

          OP Here. Certainly, I don’t mind the carpooling, and I will not get into carpooling etiquette with them or whether they should or should not ride together, but ideally, they’d trade off. Essentially, one employee puts wear and tear on his vehicle every other week and the other just rides along. It’s also important that the employee who always drives doesn’t think he is required to do that. I’ve certainly never implied that or said that, but he called and asked me if it was okay if he drove separately, and that is when I knew this is an issue.

          1. Tio*

            I’m not saying tell them to pull back on the carpooling necessarily – just maybe don’t make it a point to mention the way suggested above, because that could open doors you’ll wish you hadn’t opened if he misinterprets it, and people tend to interpret things in the way they want to hear. I would just not mention the carpooling at all. If the person driving is already thinking they should ask for permission to drive alone, that’s a bit of a red flag that you should maybe talk to THAT employee and make sure they are empowered to say no when THEY want to. I would look up a couple past articles on this site about employees feeling pressured to agree to carpool when they don’t have to

    8. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Does it really matter what’s going on with it? I think you just need to name the pattern and set expectations.

      “I know you want a ream lead role, but that will require regular solo coverage at the event and solo driving to away games, driving in bad weather, and driving after dark. You have appeared hesitant to take on these types tasks in your current role, and once left work early to make it home before a thunderstorm. That won’t work for a team lead. Certainly, if an event is cancelled due to weather, it’s fine to leave, but otherwise, we need you there. I’ll need too see that you can manage the solo driving at night and in bad weather, and that you haven’t been leaving events early before I can consider moving you into a lead role.”

    9. House On The Rock*

      I think it’s fine to address this directly. Different people have different tolerances for driving in bad weather, but most people who are skittish about it recognize that and recognize that it might have an impact on what jobs they can reasonably do.

      Since he’s interested in being the lead for a team, set up a time to talk about that and simply say something like “doing this means you have to be comfortable getting yourself to games in all kinds of conditions and not relying on others for transportation, is that ok?”. If he says yes without hesitation, it’s worth pointing out examples of when he’s gone out of his way to ride with others and stress that that won’t be an option. But given all the evidence you have, your conversation should probably lead to the conclusion that he’s not right for this new position, not getting him to agree to something he’s not really comfortable doing.

    10. HonorBox*

      I think there’s two things you should address:

      1. He left work early, without permission and without adequate coverage because of an impending storm. That’s something that should have been addressed right away. He needs to know that just leaving isn’t something that will work.

      2. Then, “Guy, in the job description for this role, driving is a requirement. If you’re legitimately interested in the role, you’ll be traveling alone sometimes, and carpooling won’t be feasible. We can’t have someone drive you to where you need to go, and we have to know that you’ll be able to get to the games if you don’t have someone to go with you. Will this work?”

      I’m not THAT concerned about someone like his grandfather going with him. I’ve actually done this job before, and boy howdy is it nice to have someone to talk to on the drive home after the game. But when that isn’t possible, he still needs to be willing and able to do his work.

      1. RLC*

        100%! I had an employee with nearly the same issues, and essentially had this dialogue with him. Afterwards his colleague privately told me that he’d been driving said employee to and from work, over 140 miles (out of his usual way) round trip each day for weeks. As it turned out there were far more issues (medical) in addition to anxiety about driving than I had been aware of as I was not co-located with employee, and the dialogue brought it out.

    11. Meep*

      As someone who used to have really bad driving anxiety (and still doesn’t like to drive in thunderstorms – though I own a Mustang and live in Tucson, AZ renowned for their flooding roads and potholes), the only real way to overcome it is to get used to driving, and frankly, that is not your responsibility.

      I would just let him know that this is a requirement of the promotion and let him decide if he needs to seek help to get over his fear or look elsewhere like in a bigger city where the away games are still in town.

    12. Hyaline*

      I would keep in mind that this may be one of those places where preference and disability can run on either side of a very fine line that can look, to an outsider, to be preference when in fact there’s a disability. Even the person themselves can think of it as a preference when it’s a disability–like driving at night requires decent night vision, and not having that is in a physical impairment (even if the ADA may nor may not technically consider it thus for accommodations–I have no idea on that front). So even if your company doesn’t have to accommodate in this circumstance, a little sensitivity goes a long way.

      Then–you actually have two questions. One is “what to do about his driving issue NOW” and the other is “What about if I promote him?” Both of these kinda start for me with “do you have a written job description and is ‘transporting self, including during evening hours’ on it?”

      If you don’t have a written description for the job he wants, I would get one put together. It’s only fair to work with clear expectations. At that point, it sounds like you could safely make clear that promotion is contingent upon his ability to do the job, which would include getting himself to job sites at night, in bad weather, without relying on his coworkers. If he’s so good that you are looking for a solution to promote him anyway, maybe it is in the budget to always assign two people to these jobs–but you’re under no obligation to hire someone to do a job they are blatantly unable to do.

      Then–is the driving *listed as part of the job requirement for the CURRENT job that he agreed to when taking the job* and is it required to the point that you would need to terminate him if he couldn’t do it? I know it seems obvious to you that it’s required, but if it wasn’t clear between you when he applied and took the job, it’s time to clear it up now, and since he’s currently an employee (and seems like otherwise good?) re-assessing if driving is truly necessary for this role, and, if so, to what capacity. If he does not have flexibility to make the call to leave due to bad weather (as he did once already), he needs to know that–that this needs to cleared with you/set his parameters as “tornadoes, blizzards, and flash flood warnings only.”

    13. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Honestly, his leaving early and abandoning his job alone is reason he shouldn’t be promoted until he proves he can reliably carry out the driving portion of the job and stick around until it’s done.

    14. TheBunny*

      Driving, despite what commenters are saying, ISN’T actually the requirement.

      The requirement is that he gets to the games on his own. If he has someone drive with him (not a coworker), teleports or takes a flying reindeer isn’t the issue…it’s reliably showing up to the games.

      I would approach it from this angle. “You will be required to attend ALL games assigned to you and failure to do so will mean you aren’t meeting the expectations for the role”.

    15. DEJ*

      As a person who used to work in sports, I think that it’s completely fair to bring up “you seem to be struggling with driving, there won’t always be someone to carpool with, it’s not unusual for coworkers to become resentful when you never want to take your turn driving, you may say that you’ll always find someone to take with you but I’m concerned that if your riding buddy pulls out at the last minute that you’ll leave us hanging for coverage of that event.”

      Out of curiosity, when the grandfather goes with him, does the grandfather drive or does he drive?

      I’m also wondering if there is an element here of ‘not wanting to be alone.’ A lot of times the media people are among the last to leave the building, walking out into dark/empty parking lots, maybe that’s something to think about as well.

  3. My Boss's Vacation Schedule is Driving Me Crazy*

    I work on a very deadline-driven role. My boss is “semi retired” and has just announced she’s taking *another* two week vacation. This was be her third such in the last three months. Since it’s only the two of us, the result of this is that I need to scramble and do two weeks’ worth of work on top of my regular work early, so that she can sign off on it before she goes. I’m sick of working like a dog so that she can enjoy her leave without interruption.* How can I express that it’s not fair to make me work doubletime so that she can work less? I’d also like it to be more of her job, not just mine, to forward-cast to all the deadlines and try to work backwards and make a plan for how we’re going to get things done. I’m already in charge of everything while she’s out (she lists me on her away message) so I’m gladly covering for her during the trips themselves.

    1. My Boss's Vacation Schedule is Driving Me Crazy*

      * Relatedly it’s also hard for ME to take leave since our team is so small that it’s hard for us both to be out, and she’s always either out, just back from being out, or gearing up to be out soon (but sometimes we just both leave, like over the holidays; we just close our department during that time). But I’m thinking I’ve been being too conscientious there. I need to make this all more of HER problem, not MINE.

      2. College Career Counselor*

        “But I’m thinking I’ve been being too conscientious there. I need to make this all more of HER problem, not MINE.”

        This is the way. You can’t care more about this business than she does. Ask for your boss to sit down with you and work out a plan for her increasingly not-there schedule. That could means more authority/autonomy for you, or she needs to be around more so that you’re not doing double work to keep up with her vacation outages. Or she needs to become okay with stuff not moving forward in her absence.

        1. My Boss's Vacation Schedule is Driving Me Crazy*

          Unfortunately, I have done this, and her response is, “yes, we’ll have to do all these reports early because I won’t be there to sign off on them. So please get everything due next month to me before I leave.” I think her sense is, well, it’s just a few reports done early, what’s the big deal.

          1. Hlao-roo*

            Have you ever approached the conversations this way:

            “Hey, boss, before you go on vacation next month, I can have reports 1, 2, and 3 complete for your approval or reports 4, 5, and 6 complete for your approval. Which set would you like me to work on?”

            She’ll probably say something along the lines of “all the reports have to be done,” and that’s when you’ll need to stick to your guns:

            “I can’t realistically complete all six reports in only two weeks, which three would you like me to prioritize” or “OK, in order to finish all six reports in two weeks, tasks XYZ will not get done. Is that the correct priority?”

          2. Kay*

            That is where you set the boundary and say “I can only do X and Y within that timeframe, not X, Y and Z. What would you like me to do?”. Get whatever you can done within you 40 hour/whatever you regularly work and don’t kill yourself trying to do it all.

            If you keep continuing to work yourself to death to get it all done, why would she plan better? You always make it work so from her eyes there is no problem. Make it her problem.

      3. HonorBox*

        It is a HER problem that has become yours.

        Others asked below… is this a workplace that is just the two of you, or are you two in a department in a larger business?

        If it is just the two of you, I’d be looking for another job. Clearly your boss has one and a half feet out the door and I’m wondering how this functions when she retires completely.

        If you’re a department in a larger business, two whom does your boss report? At this point, you don’t need to be overly tactful even, so I’d schedule time with them ASAP. Outline the fact that you’re being forced to work double time just to accommodate your boss’s traveling schedule, and that is not sustainable by any means. Also, the fact that she’s taken three two-week vacations in three months should lead her boss to wonder if this semi-retirement thing is reasonable and if they need to speed up the timeline or change the trajectory of finding her replacement.

        And be very candid that the need to accommodate her schedule and figure out the work that needs to be done to accommodate it makes it impossible for you to take the time that you’d like to too.

        I’m wondering if your boss is in a position of not needing to have someone sign off on time off. I’d be very interested if I was her boss to know that her use of time is both this significant and puts you in the position it has.

      4. New Fed*

        I had a similar experience when a boss took a 7 week vacation. Well, my scenario wasn’t as stressful in the lead up.
        But, I was covering a lot of things when she was gone and really stepping up into a leadership role.
        I wish I had asked for a small bump in pay to reflect the additional duties.
        Consider asking for this particularly if you are covering for her duties while you are out.

    2. In My Underdark Era*

      just checking: has it been addressed that maybe this one-and-a-half-person department should have more staff? I don’t see how you could possibly be expected to operate at the same rate of productivity when the department is cut in half. I would think your options are to either hire more people, or get less work done at a time?

      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Agreed. Can you talk to her boss about this? I imagine you probably have a lot of contact with that person anyway since your boss is out so much. You could word it as a problem that needs to be solved, not so much that she’s out so often but more that you are having trouble meeting deadlines and need to know which ones you should focus on and which ones can be pushed out while it’s just you running your department. If grandboss doesn’t offer a good solution but simply tells you to deal with it, well, then you have bigger problems than just that your boss is always OOO.

    3. Strive to Excel*

      Do you have a grandboss? Anyone in a different department at manager level who can cover it? Or is it literally just the two of you at the business?

      If there are other people in your company, I’d go to her and say “I’ve got time for about 40 hours of this next 120 hours of work. What do you want me to be prioritized for your signoff?” Alternatively, “hey boss who am I sending things to sign off while you’re gone?” If she pushes back – “I can only do X, Y, or Z before you leave, I can’t do all three. Which is the most important?”

      Then plan a 2 week vacation for yourself, if you have the PTO for it.

    4. EngGirl*

      Have you just been super frank with her about what this looks like for you? Also are you part of her succession plan when she fully retires? And do you even want that? Maybe try and phrase it like you’re being forward thinking i.e. If this is part of the plan to get you the “experience” of taking over then as a business you need to start planning for who can help take on some of your responsibilities.

      As for your vacation time I would just have an upfront conversation with her. “Hey boss I need to use X vacation hours and am planning to take PTO during this time.” Let it be her problem to figure out how to manage that. The only “exceptions” would be if you’re asking for something very last minute or over a time when she already has vacation planned that you know about.

    5. A*

      This has already been addressed but I’ll reiterate: you need to have a frank conversation with her, tell her that it’s not possible to do all of the work, and ask her what she wants you to prioritize. When she says that everything is important and must be done, you have to insist that it’s impossible to get everything done. You can say that you were happy to do the extra work occasionally but it’s causing you burnout, or that you have family obligations and will no longer be available to work as much overtime, or whatever applies to your situation.

      This will not become her problem unless you’re firm about it, because right now from her point of view everything works perfectly. It sucks, especially if you’re conscientious about getting the work done, but it’s the only way to get out of doing half of her work.

    6. Hyaline*

      It’s just the two of you meaning you’re at a tiny two-person company? Or it’s just the two of you in your department/team in a larger organization? Because frankly a two-person team where one person is quasi-retired but not really and keeps taking vacation is not tenable, and it might be time to elevate this and see what other organizational structural changes could make sense–letting you report to your current grandboss, folding you into another department where you wouldn’t be hung out to dry every time your checked-out boss takes leave, something.

      If the situation is that it truly is the two of you (well, one and a half), or your department truly is so siloed that there’s no way of getting you supported and they won’t hire more help….this might be your sign to start looking elsewhere if this is not acceptable long-term to you. (Unless boss has made it clear she truly really is retiring for real at the end of X timeframe…and you really truly have reason to believe it.)

    7. Juneybug*

      This sounds like one of those situations where your boss sucks and is never gonna change.

      I would fully explain the situation to her once more, using the wonderful examples folks have posted here. Yes, you have been able to get everything done before her vacation in the past, but it’s no longer sustainable to your mental and physical health.

      She probably won’t understand or want to change how you run the office. But that’s ok. You told her about the situation and as a supervisor, it’s her job to fix it.

      Since you can’t take time off to recover from the stress of carrying both workloads (cause the boss will be on vacation – AGAIN), I would start quiet quitting (doing the minimum of your job and no longer putting in extra time or effort than absolutely necessary). Maybe call in sick a few days while she is gone.

      Your boss is going to come back from her vacation refreshed while you are exhausted and she is going to be upset that things didn’t get done. That is ok since you told her about the problem and she choose not to fix it. It never feels good when your boss is upset with you but again, it’s ok. She might need to feel disappointed with deadlines being missed before she fixes the situation.

      Or just put your efforts in looking for another job.

  4. what does good documentation look like?*

    Talk to me about what a good culture of documentation looks like? One of the questions earlier today sparked this question; I’ve been in an office that’s overworked and siloed and doesn’t have time for documentation, but new leadership has ushered in new hires and we’re trying to build out our documentation. What tools do you use? How do you organize things? How do you keep it updated when things change all the time? What challenges do you see, even when documentation is a part of the culture?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Well we are technical, so we have a lot of stuff in a wiki on Github. The nice thing about a wiki is that it’s easy to do bite-sized chunks, it’s easy to cross-reference, and you can track changes.

      The culture part of it is that your task isn’t done until you’ve updated the documentation, and we hold each other to that as part of regular reviews of our code. When I submit my new feature for review, it’s up to me to mention that I updated the wiki – and if I didn’t the reviewers should ask or push back.

      And it’s nice because we all have skin in the game. If we all update the wiki, then the next person to touch something that I worked on won’t be pestering me for documentation.

      1. RedinSC*

        We do similar but it’s on OneNote through our MS Office. It’s probably not nearly as accessible as the wiki, but that’s where we keep all of our Step by Steps and links to the work.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      This depends on the scale of your office and industry, but I used to work in a firm with a lot of required industry regulations and our handbook was extensive. We had a separate department (a small one, but it was there) dedicated to making sure our processes were up to date with our regulations and that our internal documentation on how to do those processes was consistent. This meant that our processes, at least on the large scale, changed starting with that department. Sometimes it was little things – “we now require X signatures” – which they would just announce and add to the processes. For bigger changes, they’d solicit input and suggestions from around the firm, looking at what would be easy and what would be a pain, and then based on that input would update the process. They would also update all of our internal Word and Excel templates to match.

      I will note that this worked because this was a relatively regulated industry (accounting) where although our clients varied quite a bit we were performing more or less the same service for each client. The processes were also broad enough to allow for customization to each client – for instance, the process would have 2 ways offered to test assets, one of which might be good for one client but not another.

      Tools: templates templates templates! Some form of centrally located information source with limited editing rights; in our case we had a handbook updated regularly. A wiki might work better for a company where changes happen more often. We used a specialized sort of file storage system for client files – kind of a secure google drive, with check in and check out policies for working on documents. This also had templates. We used the same organization system across clients, which was automatically set up by our storage system (minimal copying and pasting required).

      Challenges: no documentation is going to describe every edge case scenario. The accounting regulation in the US even acknowledges this and provides a framework that can be used for edge cases. I would recommend doing the same when documenting your processes. Is there an underlying principal? If yes, start with that, then describe the more granular parts of the process, and any edge cases.

    3. Mockingjay*

      You need to assess what kinds of docs you need. Who’s the audience? How do they access stuff?

      Management: Business and management plans – usually produce once, review or update every few years. Store as a pdf on the shared or cloud drive, because the Grandboss will never log into a task system.

      Teams: SOPs for repeated processes and how to’s – data entry, exports for reporting, QA processes (to check/verify work): these are ideal for a wiki or a productivity tool and can be updated as needed.

      And so on. Also, you can’t get everything done at once, so compile your list, have the boss prioritize it (do a few per month), and make sure you spread the docs around the team. Pull templates (the internet is full of examples) and add the company “brand” so the docs have similar look/feel and doc development is easier, no matter who works on it.

    4. Ms. Yvonne*

      Keep a master/map/get meta re what the docs are – a table with title, description, routing to them (e.g. shortcut to your Office 365 or such), what the doc is supposed to accomplish, who owns it – at the very least. Eg you could also add who is responsible for upkeep, when it is due for an update, other columns that matter to you – whatever is not overkill but gives you key info. That helps avoid situations like more than one person thinking they are tasked with something someone else is doing, gets everyone aware of what central docs there are. Make that a shared doc, owner is responsible for their own content.

    5. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      Hark! I see the Tech Writer signal!

      Tools I use – Word and Confluence because they’re cheap and widely available. Templates and checklists are your best friends. Use them, especially for onboarding new people.

      How I organize – Directories! Lots and lots of clearly labeled directories! There needs to be a shared drive, which has sub-directories like “Department” “Section” “Team” Team Task1″ “Team Task2”

      There should be a directory for “New Hire” with branches for “Before they come on, their boss must” “Before they come on, office or IT support must” and “Now you are here, you need to…”

      How do I keep it updated – if things change a lot, then your best bet is to have that documentation on a web page that can be accessed from the company intranet. This is where Confluence comes in handy, because it automatically keeps a history of previous versions of the page and you can add notes like “Added section for tea strainers July 2000” to that history.

      What challenges there are – Version control is now your worst nightmare. If Teapot Design has edited a document and then Teapot Paint makes a different edit, nobody knows what the “real” version is. You’ll have to pdf a lot of things or have an edit process or person.

      Document your documentation. Have a change sheet up front so you know who did what when.

      Have backups so a bad drive won’t wipe out your documents. I have the documents on my drive, attached to a chart on a confluence page, on an office-wide shared drive, *and* in the Jira ticket asking me for a change. Yes, that’s a lot to keep up with, but once you get the system down, it only takes a few seconds to hit save and then copy-copy-copy.

      Oh, and you didn’t ask but – THE! BEST! process documentation starts with a page saying “To do X, follow this checklist.” If they want to know why or to see pictures, they can turn the page. But nobody wants to wade through a lot of discussion when they forgot a single instruction.

    6. Hillary*

      The thing that I’m really wrapping my head around (non-technical founder of a SAAS company) is there isn’t one kind of documentation. I’m using Divio’s documentation framework for the what we write.

      For now it’s stored in a content database in Notion. We also have a project with tasks for creating/editing/posting each individual article – once the new website is up we’ll figure out some kind of maintenance plan. Eventually (when we’re not broke) we’ll get a content management system.

      The biggest thing is that it’s part of the culture. Everyone is responsible for documentation. Make a change? Update the documentation asap.

    7. Pay no attention...*

      We’re doing this in my department. First we’re building out a Sharepoint site for the public access. Then we are documenting things like work flow chart so that clients get a better idea of what we do and how we work together and with them. Next we are adding short 1-sheet documents for specific aspects that we do, rather than one huge Document To Rule Them All. Those one sheets are date stamped in the file name so everyone knows when it was last updated.

      The challenge is going to be getting people to actually use our Sharepoint and reference our documents. Most people are just used to being a bit lazy and calling or emailing us with questions rather than finding the answer themselves in the documentation. It’s actually a big problem because all those little interruptions adds up to a lot of time and it’s awkward to redirect people, “You can look that up, here is the link…” I can barely get them to bookmark our online ticket system let alone training documentation for them to do it themselves.

    9. Procedure Publisher*

      For smaller organization, I would store docs on SharePoint or some other central location that can allow read access to all people and write access to only those who need to know.

      For larger organizations, a more complex system like a component content management system will help with keeping things managed. A component content management (CCMS) will also have features where can you use that allows you to reuse content.

      I know some documentation is done using Madcap Flare, but I don’t have direct knowledge of it.

    10. Sharon*

      You’ll know you are doing it right if:

      1. Staff have input into the procedures, are trained on them, and are informed when changes are made that affect their daily work; it’s not just written by a higher up and stuck in a drawer somewhere.
      2. The documentation is updated frequently to make it more user-friendly or to reflect business changes.
      3. Workers refer often to the documentation as a helpful resource (so are invested in keeping it up to date).
      4. Time spent on documentation and better references/tools is time well spent.

  5. DefenseWitness*

    Can I have a witness?

    One of my co-workers is truly toxic and in the 18 months since she’s worked in our small office (13 people, 5 men/7 women, plus female Grand Boss) has accused almost all of us at one point or another of being mean, yelling at her, belittling her, lying to her about stuff, refusing to help her, making her cry, etc.

    It was my turn about 4 months ago and luckily, I (single male) had two witnesses who were able to confirm that nothing she said happened … happened. Grand Boss still asked me to apologize for the ‘misunderstanding’ to smooth things over because she didn’t want drama in the office during our busy time. I apologized and toxic co-worker graciously accepted my apology. This is the standard routine that most of us have endured for the past 18 months … drama, accusation, forced apology or some awkward meeting to discuss the issue, rinse & repeat with toxic co-worker always the victim.

    Since then, I and multiple people have privately made the vow to never speak (beyond the professional minimum) or interact with her without a witness. This has been easy to manage because everyone in the office is professionally pleasant to her in a group setting (lunches, meetings, etc.) and rarely needs to privately meet with her 1:1. When 1:1 meetings have happened, ‘my’ group of 8 people have a quiet, mutual agreement for someone to hang around/do something in the public area while the discussion is happening so that at least one other person is always around.

    I’m not sure how sustainable this agreement is going to be long term.

    If she did ask to meet with me 1:1 and in her or my office vs the more public tables in the open group areas, would it be OK to give an excuse as to why the public tables are better OR flat out tell her, if pushed, that I’m uncomfortable meeting with her without an open door and witnesses due to past accusations or past ‘misunderstandings’?

    I am legitimately afraid of this woman because her accusations seem to be getting more serious (recently accused a coworker of drinking in his car at lunch and smelling like alcohol all afternoon that required HR get involved) as Grand Boss seems to be finally, slowly, catching on how toxic she is and the majority of the office is refusing to listen or engage in gossip. I’m worried about the next accusation aimed at me. He touched me, he made a pass, he said something …

    If doctors are allowed to have a witness in the room while seeing patients, can regular office workers??

    1. NoMoreSugar*

      Can your group of 8 approach your Grand Boss together to explain your interaction “policy” with your interactions with her and how toxic she is to the office? Perhaps if Grand Boss is hearing this from a group, it will finally sink in that something needs to be done….

      1. learnedthehardway*

        Agreeing – the fact that everyone in the office is banding together to ensure that there is a witness to every interaction with this person is proof positive that it’s time for someone to take the matter more seriously. Might also be a good idea for the group to approach HR about it and put the issue on record there too.

        As for meetings, I would absolutely refuse to do 1:1 meetings with her. She seems to be escalating and her accusations are getting pretty serious. I don’t think that you need to tell her that you’re refusing to meet individually with her. Just always have someone else show up.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I would agree with this–who knows why she’s doing this but it sounds like she’s needing a bigger “hit” in terms of her accusations and soon a forced apology isn’t gong to cut it.

          Whatever else you do, DOCUMENT. Individually and as a team, you want a record of what she said, what happened, who saw/heard what. It’s one thing to recognize a pattern, but a whole different level if you can provide the receipts.

    2. Gingerbread*

      I don’t think you need to give any reasons, just state that it won’t be possible to meet in your office and suggest an adequate public space. but really, your manager should have caught up by now and should be managing the situation.

    3. FashionablyEvil*

      I honestly would NOT tell her you’re uncomfortable being alone with her because I think the odds are too high that she’d misinterpret that and use it against you. (And I generally fall on the side of being transparent/forthcoming.) Just schedule the meeting for the public tables.

      1. MsM*

        Or if you absolutely can’t get out of a 1 on 1 conversation, email her immediately after to recap exactly what was discussed and confirm she understands so there’s some kind of paper trail. But I think this is exactly the kind of situation that yesterday’s post on collective action scenarios was designed for, so maybe look there for tips on how to approach the boss/HR as a group.

      2. Ashley*

        It would probably help if you don’t have private meetings with anyone of the same rank so this person doesn’t claim they are being singled out.
        If you do get cornered you could always do a quick excuse like I need to grab a drink refill can I meet you in 10 at the table?

      3. JSPA*

        Just ruthlessly bring in a third person because you want

        “fresh eyes,”

        “an unbiased take,”

        “I want to make sure we’re not working at cross-purposes with the X team,”

        “I have to catch Jan before they leave, so let’s make this a two-fer.”

        Worst case, “I hate to do this to you, but I may need to isolate,* so let’s do this in separate offices, via zoom” (and record it).

        *specific disease unspecified

    4. WellRed*

      I’m reminded of an interview where Letterman asked actress Lauren Conrad, famous at the time for constantly being at odds with everyone around her, if she had ever considered that maybe SHE was the problem. Also know as, if everyone you meet is an asshole, maybe YOURE the asshole. I’d stop apologizing to her.

    5. BellaStella*

      As a group, go to HR and to your boss. Set up a meeting with them
      Both and all of you. Bring the documentation of the 18 months:
      Month 1, she accused X of this or that. Resolution and actions taken: a, b, c
      Month 2: ibid
      Etc
      Note that this has caused the following specific work problems and delays etc and lack of trust and cost – document the costs!
      State that as a group each of you has had an accusation and issue and would like to know what they think is best but your ideas include no more 1:1 with her and every single interaction will have an email recap that cc’s the boss and a monthly update wrap up to HR until her behaviour changes.

      1. Pay no attention...*

        I agree with BellaStella. She gets a reward for her behavior every time someone is forced to apologize to her — power trip, she’s in control, you bow and scrape to appease her, you’re all afraid of her behavior escalating. This is probably more than just toxic behavior and I would go full HR press on this if the boss is only “catching on” to her antics rather than in alarm mode.

    6. HonorBox*

      OOF. I had a coworker like this. I had a conversation in which I said something very clearly and with the intention of helping. Coworker told several other people, including our boss, a slightly different version of what I said. But that slight difference made me look like a jerk. This kind of thing may not have a specific monetary cost to the business, but there’s cost. And your boss needs to know.

      As others said, go as a group. Remind them of a few key instances that show this coworkers bad behavior. I think your particular situation – having witnesses corroborate your story and still having to apologize to keep the peace – and the accusation of drinking are two good ones. Tell your boss that no one is willing to meet with her without someone else present. Also, I think it is worth pointing out that even with witnesses, her behavior has been supported because YOU were forced to apologize. Tell boss. Don’t ask for approval. They need to know that no one trusts her and it is costing time and energy to ensure that you all aren’t subjected to her harassment.

    7. Helewise*

      I work in a public office and we do this all the time – a little different because it’s with members of the public rather than a coworker, but we just pull another staff member in when needed. I’d take whatever blowback from that above meeting 1:1 with a person like this, which I wouldn’t do under any circumstances. I also wouldn’t apologize again, because wth.

    8. RedinSC*

      Never meet with her privately 1:1 in an office (all of your coworkers, not just you). Bring in someone for the meeting and if you have to say something, X is here to help take notes or something.

      I agree, you all have to go to your boss and if you have it, HR as a group to really make them aware of this person’s actions. ANd get boss’s authorization to have multiple people in meetings. IN fact, if she wants to have a 1;1 with you, the boss should be invited to all of those. Start making this the boss’s problem, too!. Oh she sounds like a nightmare.

      Can you meet via teams or zoom and record your meetings (for your notes?)

      1. Merci Dee*

        Oh, I really like the idea of inviting the boss to all future 1:1s that she wants to set up. As you said, start making it the boss’s problem.

        1. purple distractions*

          My boss would accept and then not show up because it “looked like you had this handled” so be clear with boss what’s going on and have a contingency plan

      1. WellRed*

        Right? This is completely fkd! Instead of saying this is ridiculous, the office is trying to work around this idiot. And “graciously accepted my apology.” Puhleeeze.

    10. Tio*

      So, the boss made you apologize? Did you ask for an apology from her, for the false accusation (“misunderstanding”) since it was mostly HER misunderstanding?

    11. Venus*

      If you have had this problem for 18 months then you have a manager problem as much as you have a toxic coworker problem. Can you all raise it as a group to make it clear that this is a big problem for everyone?

    12. Rainy*

      In addition to what everyone said upthread, check whether you are in a one- or two-party consent to record state. If you are in a one-party state, start recording the audio of these meetings. Don’t tell her or anyone else. You aren’t going to do anything with these recordings unless things really go sideways, so no one needs to know except you. Probably it’ll be fine and you’ll never need them, but in situations with liars and manipulative triangulators, an ounce of prevention is always worth a pound of cure.

  6. Busy Middle Manager*

    For those who left their jobs and/or decided to become self-employed, where and how specifically did you get health insurance?

    I didn’t think about logistics here but it seems disorganized. My job’s COBRA is just “call a number and ask.” No brochure or web link or anything. I was expecting more so am confused.

    So I googled ACA and so many basic websites come up that I am not even sure what the official site is. TBH so many look fake/like aggregator telemarketing type sites. All the plans on the official-looking site for my state are horrible and don’t cover anything to the point that they seem scammy.

    Now I’m being inundated with calls that sound very salesy. One lady called 4X beginning at 9:05 and 5:00. I didn’t answer yet because I was not awake enough to discuss this, now I think it’s funny she keeps calling and texting, now she’s texting me “following up.” Is this just the state of insurance?

    This is truly something I need a list and spreadsheet and brochure for. Not a sales call.

    Experiences and tips?

    1. Nicosloanica*

      Unfortunately I think the ACA is still state-by-state, so the advice you need is specific to YOUR state. There should be one central site that is your state’s insurance plans. In my state, you apply there and then they show you the options, prices, and available subsidies, if any. Once you’ve signed up for a plan, it’s basically just like having work-based insurance, except you have to re-certify or re-enroll at the end of every year, particularly if you do receive any subsidies/tax breaks/whatever. I found that process very confusing. I don’t think it’s actually possible in my state to just stay on the same plan and keep on keepin’ on. I don’t know if that’s how it works in other states though.

      1. Retired Accountant*

        I don’t need to renew my ACA plan; it’s an if you don’t want to change anything it continues in effect. I don’t have a subsidy though.

      2. Reebee*

        I used the ACA several years ago and found the process very simple. I had a subsidy, which I paid back once I found full-time work.

    2. Spacewoman Spiff*

      Does your state have a marketplace? I had to get coverage through Obamacare after grad school, and while the process was still somewhat baffling, my state has a single marketplace website where I could find details for all the plans, search for things like specific medicines I needed covered, etc. I’m not sure if every state has that, but I’d start out looking for that, because it did really simplify the process–I bought my insurance through the state marketplace, and also could have submitted for any subsidies I qualified for there. I definitely wasn’t getting spam calls from anyone!

    3. Flor Azul*

      I got help from a navigator. I got her number from a friend, but I know that some go to the public library to advertise their services (the service is free). You could also Google “navigator Affordable Care Act”. Best of luck!

    4. Reba*

      Yeah for better or worse, there are brokers and agents working to sell these plans and not all of them will be the most ethical and it’s true many of the plans are not so good. I would start at Healthcare . gov to make sure you are being directed to the official state website.

      COBRA is the continuation of benefits, it would be the same plan you already have/had, so in theory you have this info already. It’s not uncommon for it to be handled by a third party administrator so that may be why your HR has little to say about it.

    5. Hiring Mgr*

      When I did this a few years ago, we really wanted to stay on the BlueCross/Blue Shield plan we had under my prior employer, so was able to do COBRA for 18 months, then just self-pay for a similar plan. It’s worked out well but it’s not cheap

      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        Do you remember how the logistics worked? I guess I need to call but it’s weird doing this over the phone in 2024. I was expecting a web link like other products now, especially if I need to make a payment.

        1. Hiring Mgr*

          Yeah it wasn’t as simple as you’d think it could be. I remember having to call BCBS and there was a lot of back and forth calls/emails before eventually picking the plan. But yes had to talk to someone on the phone a couple of times

    6. TooMuchOfAManager*

      I’m only familiar with California’s website but if you look up your State’s Medic-Aid site, maybe that’s a good place to start. They’re usually connected in some way, as far as I know. And, if you want California’s info, here’s the site: https://www.healthforcalifornia.com/covered-california?gclid=4d225d2d35871ec6c6093bc96925f8bb&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=4d225d2d35871ec6c6093bc96925f8bb&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SEP%20-%20DESKTOP&utm_term=covered%20california&utm_content=Obamacare%20-%20E
      Open enrollment starts soon, unless you have a qualifying life event, which can be applied at any time. Again, AFAIK. Good luck!

      1. Anax*

        Yep, I used Covered California last time I was in need – but fair warning, if you do not currently have income, the website doesn’t have an option to let you get regular insurance! It forces you to take Medi-Cal (local Medicaid), even if you want to just pay the full premium on normal health insurance.

        If you happen to be in California and are in that situation, I would recommend NOT using the website, and instead calling or going in-person to your local county office.

        Once you’ve submitted on the website, you have to go through WAY more hoops to get that “undone”; it took over an hour and three escalations for me.

        I was only without insurance for a month while waiting for my new job to start, and Medi-Cal takes months for the paperwork to go through – if I was even eligible with such a short period of unemployment.

        Most folks do COBRA coverage when they’re only out of work for a short period, so the site isn’t set up to handle short-term coverage well.

        Given that I had just been in the newspaper alleging workplace discrimination by the very HR staff who would have to process my COBRA paperwork… That wasn’t a great option for me.

      1. Nonny*

        FWIW, I found getting coverage from the aca was very easy. You plug in your info and they give you a bunch of options. Going through the options can take some time, but it all seemed pretty straightforward. I didn’t got through a broker at all.

        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          Thank you all for responses! This website looks official. I guess the top results when I was googling were aggregator sites, or whatever they are called

      2. Applesauce*

        That is not correct- you can enroll anytime if you have a qualifying life event, which includes leaving your job.

    8. Retired Accountant*

      COBRA is a continuation of your existing plan; there needn’t be a brochure for it, just cost information, or they can provide you cost information over the phone.

      I think the main differences between ACA plans are premiums, deductibles and network. An ACA compliant plan shouldn’t leave you with the imprression that nothing is covered, unless you mean that the deductible is extremely high.

    9. Sparkles McFadden*

      COBRA is the same coverage you already have but you’re paying the full amount (so it’s expensive). So whatever coverage you are currently getting is what you keep getting.

      To get information on the ACA, start here: https://www.healthcare.gov/get-coverage/ Pick your state from the pull down list and you’ll be able to go to your state’s healthcare marketplace site. My state’s web site was sort of terrible (now it’s mediocre), but the reps I reached by phone were great.

      Compare plans and check to see if your doctors will accept the insurance. This is harder to check than you’d think because my doctors didn’t want to confirm anything. The office managers said that things change all of the time so they didn’t want to say. The general guideline they gave me was that a plan that was silver or above would be fine. Anything at a lower level was iffy.

    10. Black Hole Sun*

      Agree with Nonny: start with healthcare.gov, it’s fairly straightforward
      They’ll send you to your state if needed

      If you happen to be in Wisconsin, Illinois or Colorado, I can give you a horror story (Illinois) and success story once I found the right people (Colorado and Wisconsin).

      COBRA benefits systems and administrators are the wild west in terms of online availability and/or ability to talk to a human who can help you in a reasonable amount of time and effort.

      Signed,
      someone who wishes she didn’t know so much about this

    11. Aggretsuko*

      Oh no, I searched for COBRA once and started getting calls every 15 seconds for weeks and every few hours for weeks after that. My voice mail actually says that I’m not answering my phone during the day due to spam calls.

    12. AVP*

      Hi, I just did this!

      Right now I am doing COBRA to end out this year. The only reason I sorted it out is because I was friends IRL with my old company’s insurance broker (I had made that connection between for her) so she helped me navigate it. If there’s anyone like that you can contact who runs this at your old company, that’s the person to go to.

      For ACA, though, the site you want is Stride Health. Every state is different and this is a nifty tool that sorts it out for you. They are highly recced by all the insurance people I’ve worked with because the actual government sites are so hard to use and there’s a lot of scams. It will come up on google, not putting a link here bc moderation.

      Going ACA for this can be helpful because it’s one of the cheapest options, and if you have different family members who need coverage, you can chose individual plans per person (for example, if you have a spouse who needs one thing, they get a plan that covers that. If you personally use lighter coverage, you won’t need to pay for what your spouse needs).

      But overall — once the business gets going, if you have two people who are not married involved, I would recommend finding a local broker who can find you an overall business plan. That group will likely also do any business liability coverage you might need or want, so they’re a really good connection to make. I don’t know how to go about finding recommended people in your area but asking other small business owners at a meet-up or online might work. As you note, they can be shady and salesy as hell, so you probably want some personal references here…but the good ones are worth their weight in gold and are free to you to use. (Well, they get paid a commission by the plan you choose so not free exactly, but you won’t get a bill.)

    13. I'm the Phoebe in Any Group*

      Another option is to take one or two college classes to becom eligible to purchase student health insurance. The policies and eligibility vary by university (# of classes, can they be online) but in Texas, where I am live, they are all PPOs with low deductibles from the major insurers. Cost is several thousand a year.

    14. pcake*

      My son signed up for his gold ACA plan by himself. It was easy, and his insurance is better than the plan we have through my husband’s job.

  7. Anne Onymous*

    Would it be acceptable to ask interviewers about their living situations when interviewing for jobs in a new industry? I’m interviewing for positions in a notoriously high cost of living area and, for reasons that are probably beyond the scope of this discussion, I will almost certainly have to live alone. It therefore seems sensible to have some sort of idea how those who currently work in that industry get by. For example, if most of them are in serious longterm relationships and still struggle to pay rent then that seems like relevant information for potential applicants—especially those of us who aren’t in relationships—to take into account. Moreover, if many of them live with parents or roommates until they reach a certain level of seniority then that also seems like relevant information—some of us can’t think of anything worse than sharing an intimate living space with anyone, let alone those who are little more than strangers!

    I know what the answer is likely going to be, but isn’t this one of those areas where professional norms act as a barrier to those applicants who are interested in changing industries but who understandably want to know how doing so is likely to affect their bottom line?

    1. Jane Bingley*

      Yeah, unfortunately this is just too personal a question to ask. It would be better to focus on figuring out what salary you’d need to live comfortably, then asking them whether you’re reasonably on the same page when it comes to salary.

      1. Nicosloanica*

        I agree, you do want this information but the way to get it is not by asking the people interviewing you during your interview. Can you network with some similarly-situated peers / friends / friends of friends to get the answers to these questions? Most people are happy to help since you’re just asking for info. And there are cost of living calculators but it feels awful to put your whole trust in those. Maybe a FB group for young professionals in that area or something like that?

        1. Gingerbread*

          the numbeo website gives some idea regarding cost of living, specially if you compare to your current city. also people on Reddit can be helpful

        2. Golden*

          Does your industry have an active subreddit? This might be a good place to find out this type of information, and you plus the responders could all stay fairly anonymous if desired.

      2. Starbuck*

        I think you can ask how other recent hires have navigated finding housing, they may know. I too live in a high cost area and this topic does come up every time I am hiring. Candidates don’t usually ask about my own personal situation, but just generally what it’s like to find housing and again what other recent hires have done.

    2. londonedit*

      Yeah, I think this is one where you’ll need to do your own research into rents etc, and then work out whether you can manage on the advertised salary (or if there isn’t one, what salary you’d need in order to manage and whether that’s reasonable for the position).

      I think the only thing you might be able to do, if there’s a section of the interview that’s more of a ‘do you have any questions about the company’ bit, is ask whether most people tend to live near the office or commute in – that might give you an idea. But I wouldn’t make it the first question you ask, and I wouldn’t ask if it seems they want questions that are more directly related to the role itself.

      1. MsSolo (UK)*

        As well as asking about the commute, I think you might also be able to get away with “Obviously, I’d be moving if I’m successful. Can you share anything about the area?” if you ask it all in the same breath, so to speak. You might just get the commute answer, or very specific to the office, but you might get a bit of info about other local amenities.

        1. Clisby*

          Yeah, when I moved from SC to Columbus, OH in 1988, one of the things I really appreciated was they gave job candidates a packet of information about Columbus, including a Chamber of Commerce publication about Columbus neighborhoods. That was the good old days of Sunday newspaper real estate ads, so between the two I was able to figure out 3 or 4 neighborhoods that would be both convenient (close to downtown and on a major bus line) and affordable for for a single renter like me. I lived in the neighborhood I picked for the almost 9 years I was there.

          I didn’t have to ask for this – apparently it was routine for them – but I don’t see why they’d be put off if you ask. (Also, sometimes you can get this kind of information from the local newspaper – I know our newspaper’s Saturday real estate inserts almost always features a particular neighborhood in the area.)

    3. Mouse*

      Can’t you just ask for salary info and do some research on rents? I’m not sure asking for such personal information would even be helpful; everyone’s financial situation is different.

    4. Ashley*

      I would ask more about rent costs in the area further in the process.
      I would probably feel a little uncomfortable with your phrasing if I was asked about my housing or housing accommodations outside of something like an internship where it was a given people would be relocating temporarily.

    5. Not A Manager*

      Don’t ask about their specific setup. Ask general questions. “This is a very high COL area. Is it your perception that most employees at my level have roommates or live with partners? How would you say people generally manage the cost of transportation and parking?” Etc. I’d save the more fine-grained questions for later in the process or if the interviewer seems especially amenable, but I think you can ask one or two broad questions early on.

      1. academic fashion*

        I second this. I’m sort of surprised by the responses that say “don’t ask about living situations” because in my industry, it’s totally normal to ask about housing, but upon reflection, I realized that I don’t usually ask people, esp. the people on the hiring committee, “tell me how you personally live.”

        I ask more: What are housing costs like right now, do you have a sense of where rental prices / housing prices are, are people who want to buy a house able to do so, do most people live close to or further away from campus, what’s the process of securing housing like? Etc. A lot of these questions can also wait for you’ve-received-an-offer-and-haven’t-accepted-yet, depending on industry norms.

        1. Clisby*

          Agreed – I definitely wouldn’t ask for personal information about the interviewers’ living situations. I think it’s fine to ask generally about housing, commutes, etc. in the area.

      2. bamcheeks*

        I think this is the way, and I also think it’s exactly the thing that networking / informational interviews are for. Even then I probably wouldn’t ask directly about people’s living situations, but questions phrased the way Not A Manager asks them. (You’ll actually get better information that way too— “how do you live” is one data point, “what’s your sense of how..” usually gets you someone’s personal situation if they’re happy to share it, but also contextualising information like, “but I feel like I’m better off than some of my colleagues because I’ve been in this area so long. For people who’ve moved here more recently it’s more like…”)

        If you don’t have anyone immediately in your network to ask about this, you can put a shout out on any of your social media for people who might be willing to chat to you (not specifically about CoL but about the working scene more generally) and you’ll often find you’ve a second or third contact you didn’t know about who’d be happy to chat!

      3. Kay*

        No – don’t ask about roommates or living with partners. It is easy enough for people to go online and look at rents, look at costs for public transportation/parking, etc. and determine if that seems affordable with the salary offered – and that has been true for a very long time! It would come off as extremely out of touch for someone to ask about personal things like this – especially since everyone has different personal circumstances!! I would expect an adult to be able to do their own research and calculate accordingly. You can say something like “Being as the office is in downtown with limited parking in the area, are there any transportation benefits provided by the company?” or “I’ve heard the rental market is extremely competitive here, what is your perception of the housing situation?” and that shows you’ve done your research.

        The employees could all be trust fund babies living on their own, or saddled with debt therefore living with roommates, living with parents for reasons having nothing to do with finances, etc.

      4. Starbuck*

        Yes, you can definitely ask questions like this – how have other recent hires done with finding housing, what can someone new to the area expect, etc. Asking about the interviewer’s own situation is indeed a bit too personal (though they may choose to share).

        1. Clisby*

          And even if you’re asking about different areas/neighborhoods, take that with a grain of salt. My husband and I have been married for 28 years, and except a brief year-and-a-half, have *always* ended up in neighborhoods some of our work colleagues considered unsafe. We’ve loved all the neighborhoods we’ve lived in and raised 2 kids in.

    6. Rex Libris*

      Yep. People’s living situations are their own business. I’d do some online research as a start. Hit Zillow or somesuch and compare apartment and housing costs where you are vs. where you’re headed. Find a decent cost of living comparison tool online, look for online comparisons of utility and insurance costs by area, etc.

    7. Hiring Manager (they/them)*

      Nope, don’t ask. Questions that are borderline illegal to ask applicants (where do you live? are you married/in a long-term relationship? Do you make your rent on time? Does your husband have a job?) generally also are not good questions to ask interviewers. Unless you are applying for super entry level positions – which you probably wouldn’t be making a huge move for – those kind of questions make candidates look unprepared and/or like they will not be able to maintain personal/professional boundaries in the workplace.

      A better way to get that information would be to find online forums (Facebook groups are actually pretty good for this imo) dedicated to that specific industry in that area and ask those questions. You might also look to see local professional networking groups in the same industry and email them for advice. Those are more appropriate avenues for the information you are looking for.

      You ask if this isn’t one of those areas where professional norms act as a barrier to applicants and as a hiring manager, probably not. COLA is not hidden information; as long as they are open about their salary on the job posting/early on in phone screens – it’s readily available information to you outside of the interview process. Yes, it may be an area that single living isn’t possible or that people have to rely on less-than-viable options for housing (roommates, long commutes, etc.) – but a hiring manager is going to expect you to do that knowledge tracking on your own. I understand the frustration of it, but this is one of those situations where a candidate asking this question is basically asking a few random employees of a company to solve nation-wide, systemic issues.

    8. Super Duper Anon*

      Honestly, I wouldn’t even mind sharing the basic details if you asked me this in an interview, but my personal living situation is so specific to me and past decisions, and my husband and children and their expenses and school boundaries and rising rents and all kinds of reasons that are somewhat related to salary but not really that it wouldn’t apply to you and you would get very little useful information out of it except that rents have gone up around my area a lot and we have a bit of a housing shortage at the moment.

    9. Lady Danbury*

      You absolutely cannot ask interviewers about their living situation. Living alone versus living with spouses/roommates/etc doesn’t give you good information about whether you will be able to live alone because you don’t know what other factors impact their finances (student loan debt, family inheritance, etc) as well as their personal preferences for living with others. For example, it’s very uncommon for married couples not to live together, regardless of their financial situation.

      Instead, ask about the salary as early as possible and plug that into your own personal budgetary needs.

    10. Antilles*

      Way too personal. Also probably not super useful since it’s going to depend on the individual’s desires, finances, etc.
      What you can do, however, is ask them about salary, then go from there. If they tell you the job pays $X/year, you can then calculate your take-home pay. From there, you can check rents in the area, search online to get a ballpark figure for utility costs, think about other expenses you want/need, and effectively prepare an estimated budget to see where you stand.

    11. 2 Cents*

      If you’d be relocating, it’s reasonable to ask questions about the area, eg. “where are good places to live that are a reasonable commute to the office?” I found when interviewing for jobs that would have required a relocation that people were pretty open to volunteering information about the area, eg. “here are the neighbors that have good schools”, “this neighbor has a really nice downtown and is great for young people”, “that neighborhood is boring”, “that area is really expensive”, “some people choose to live in XYZ which is a longer commute but they like it better because…” etc. and with that, people often volunteered information about their living situations. But it would be inappropriate to ask your interviewers about their personal living situations or personal financial situations.

    12. MsM*

      I think you can ask broadly if there are neighborhoods they would recommend for someone living alone on a budget. They might volunteer their own situations or what they/friends did when starting out if they’ve been around for a long time. But yeah, asking for their current living situation specifically might be getting a bit too personal and not prove particularly helpful if they have other resources to fall back on.

    13. DrSalty*

      Not in a formal interview, no. If you’re doing informational interviews or something more casual, you could ask generally about salaries and COL, rather than getting into person details.

    14. Decidedly Me*

      That’s a really personal question to ask, especially given the fact that this is a researchable topic. Cost of living calculators/comparisons to current city, looking up available rentals and their costs, etc. can help you determine the feasibility of living alone in the area on the offered salary.

    15. Parenthesis Guy*

      I feel like this is something you can ask in an informational interview with someone that works in the industry in your area. So, not for a job interview but more reach out to someone who does what you want to do and ask them questions.

      If you have friends, that’s a good start. Otherwise, alums might help.

    16. JFC*

      Yeah, this needs to be avoided big-time. If I was the interviewer who got asked that, it would be an immediate turnoff. It’s none of your business and has nothing to do with your qualifications for the job. A better bet would be to do some research on the salaries for your desired role as well as cost of living in the area you would be located in. You can do some math on your own to figure out whether it’s workable. Also, salaries and people’s living situations aren’t always as tied together as you might think. Plenty of two-income six-figure households are barely getting by month to month.

    17. Potsie*

      I don’t think you can ask relative strangers what their living situation is. Questions I have seen asked are if there are any areas that are popular for entry level employees at their company to live and whether it is feasible to live alone on the salary in that area or if most people have roommates. You then need to do the legwork yourself and look up housing costs in the areas mentioned.

    18. Applesauced*

      When I transfered offices within the same company, the people I interviewed with offered to answer questions about the new city and volunteered some living information like “I live in X town, but Z neighborhood is cool. Y is convent to the office but has ABC that isn’t great”

      Large companies may have a relocation office or person you could ask to speak to.

      Otherwise, the city’s subreddit might be a good resource.

    19. Irish Teacher.*

      I don’t think it’s just about professional norms. While I get why it would be helpful to a candidate, maybe, there are also very valid reasons why the interviewer might not want to share that information.

      For example, somebody might choose to live with their parents not because of costs but because of a disability that makes it difficult for them to live alone or somebody may live alone because they have just been through a messy divorce and perhaps might not even want the other interviewers knowing they no longer live with their ex. It could also be tricky for people who are gay and closeted (I know the question would only be if they have a spouse, not what his or her gender identity is, but if they worked closely with the rest of the interview panel, it could open the door to further questions) or say somebody in a triad. And then there are things like prejudices against people who live with parents or who “can’t make ends meet.”

      Plus, I’m not sure it would be as much use as it initially seems. Yeah, if you had an overview of the living situations of an entire 100 person company, it might be useful, but just of those on an interview panel…I’m a bit doubtful. After all, there are people who choose to live with parents or friends, not because they are short of money, but because they prefer not to live alone or for domestic convenience (say they work long hours and it’s convenient to live with mum or dad who is retired and happy to do the cooking and family shopping) or because a parent is elderly and needs somebody in the house with them overnight. Or people may struggle to pay rent despite earning good money and living even in a low-cost area because they have debts or an extravagent lifestyle or an abusive partner who refuses to pay their share of the family’s costs or they have a gambling addiction or who knows what. Equally, somebody might find it easy to pay rent because they have a trust fund.

      So really, for the information to be useful, you’d need to ask additional questions and at that point, you would definitely be getting into the realm of things people have valid reasons not to want to share – “do you live with your parents because of the cost of living in the area or because you are underpaid or is it because of a disability you or your parents have that requires support or because you are close to your family and enjoy living with them or for cultural reasons?” (I actually saw a documentary about a young woman from the Travelling Community who was talking about the difficulty in making a career when she couldn’t move away from home because in her culture, it was expected that young people live with their parents until they marry; not sure if that is true across the Travelling Community or just for some families but at any rate, given the horrific discrimination that the Travelling Community faces and the fact that many (most?) professionals from that community are not open about their background, “no, I’m well-paid; I live at home for cultural reasons” may not be something they would be comfortable saying.)

      And yes, I know some of my examples are uncommon but others are more common and anyway, even uncommon reasons could be true of any individual and when you’ve a small sample set…one person with an unusual situation could mess with the results.

    20. Busy Middle Manager*

      Completely irrelevant anyways since housing costs for similar units depend so much on when they person moved in. Market rents in my area are $3000 but everyone I know is paying $1500-$2500 because we’ve all been in place for years and landlords don’t raise rent to the maximum highest priced local comp, and some rent from relatives or family friends who just like having a quiet tenant. Mortgages depend on when you bought. You’d be paying about $6K a month mortgage to buy my current small building. Current owner is paying around $3K. dude next door is 12 years older than me and bought young; IDK what he pays, but his job doesn’t pay much, I don’t think he could afford more than $2K a month. I have some older neighbors who are effectively broke and living on SS but have “million dollar” homes.
      So asking these questions won’t give you much insight IMO

      1. RentPolicies*

        Oh how I envy you. Every other place I’ve lived operated like this but in Boston places adjust to market rates even for existing renters, although they will sometimes negotiate down a bit for long time residents who ask. I’ve had annual increases as high as $300/month and it’s been $150+ multiple times (I negotiated my latest renewal to $155/month, down from an initial offer of $238).

        It’s not just my place; it’s SOP here.

        I miss the automatic 50/month annual increases.

    21. Keep it Simple*

      Call a few different real estate agencies in the area that do rentals. It’s really on you to do the research about a place you’re considering. If someone asked me that kind of a question, I’d be taken aback and wouldn’t really answer. It’s sort of stalker-ish.

    22. Anne Onymous*

      I appreciate all the responses, and particularly those that offer helpful suggestions on how to reframe the question. I should clarify that I mentioned changing industries because I thought that would be the best way to elicit responses from as wide a range of commenters as possible; I’m actually looking at getting my first “real” job away from home. That being the case, I actually have no idea how to work out what is and isn’t affordable based on salary and cost of living. The average house costs between twenty and thirty times the starting salaries in my area—I have no idea how to look at these figures and work out what I can reasonably expect to afford. I thought just asking people their circumstances would be a good way of circumventing this process and getting to the heart of the issue. I appreciate that I may have to be a bit more subtle about it going foward!

      1. Mouse*

        The “conventional wisdom”, for what it’s worth, is that you should aim to spend no more than 30% of your gross income on housing. That’s more doable in some geographies than others, of course, but it’s been a useful benchmark in my experience! Look for studio/1br apartments in the area and see what you can expect for rental rates.

        1. Anne Onymous*

          I’ve heard it’s more common for people to spend half their income on rent in my part of the country, so I suspect that would be pretty limiting in my case. Part of me wonders why those with rich parents even bother getting jobs and moving out these days—it just seems like an enormous amount of effort just to stand still!

          1. Fishchurch*

            Yes, housing less than a third of salary is the normal rule of thumb. Certainly people could pay more, but if you’re renting, landlords amd agencies will use 1/3, so you may find it hard to get someone to rent to you at half your salary. If you know you will live by yourself, then a look through Zillow or Redfin for average rent will give you a good idea of how much you need the salary to be.
            I live in a notoriously high COL area. You can’t ask about personal living situations, and it wouldn’t be useful for you because there are so many variations.

        2. RentingMath*

          In high cost of living areas you’re unlikely to spend less than half of your take home pay on rent. I make 6 figures and still pay more than half my take home pay on rent (just rent, nothing else).

          Also, in many places the difference in price between 1brm and 2 is so minuscule that you may be better off with the larger apartment. For example, 1brm 1bath might start at $2700 but often be closer to $3k or more while 2brm 2bath might start at $3k and go to $3200 or $3300. If the difference between the available 1brm and available 2brm is $100/month it may be a better choice to get the larger apartment, especially with the second bathroom and when it’s less than a 5% increase.

      2. Cordelia*

        I’m in the UK so it’s probably different, but here letting agents (real estate agents?) will ask your salary and then tell you what you can afford to pay in rent, and what they will consider renting to you. E.g. you say you earn X amount of money and they say you can afford up to Y in rent. There are rent affordability calculators online too, I just looked and there are definitely some that are US based.

          1. Cordelia*

            the affordability calculators? yes, I’ve used one where you put in estimates of your other outgoings. They can’t account for everything, obviously, but it would give LW an idea of the levels to start at

      3. Excel Gardener*

        As Mouse said, 1/3 of your gross income is a good rule of thumb. I wouldn’t spend 50% of your gross income on rent though if at all possible, I’ve done 40% before and it was doable but I had the live fairly frugally.

        You also mention home values, but as a young professional I wouldn’t think about buying a house right now. Look at renting for now. You should be able to get a good sense of what rents for studios and 1 bedrooms are in different areas of the metro area you’re moving to by looking on sites like apartments.com and Zillow. Then it’s simple math to determine the minimum salary you’d need.

      4. RM*

        Where I live most landlords will simply refuse to rent to you if you don’t make 3x rent (before taxes). So if you are offered a salary of $60k you can rent a place with $1,667 rent or less. Then research and check that there is decent availability in that price range.

        1. Starbuck*

          Yeah, every time I’ve been on the rental market paying 50% or 40% of my income has never been an option, even if I wanted to push my budget that far. They just won’t approve you. They only way to get there is rental increases in the same unit over time.

      5. GythaOgden*

        Yeah. I live in my own home as a single woman on a very low income — but I have wealthy parents, a husband who left me an incredible legacy and two life insurance payouts, and although I’m generally frugal in my day to day activities to avoid eating through my savings that much, the mortgages and rents here would be unaffordable on my salary …but here I am anyway. I’m disabled so my earning potential is not as high as you’d expect from my educational background, but I’d be in an incredibly different situation if my parents hadn’t retired at the pinnacle of their respective careers and been incredibly good at managing their money in order to turn riches into actual wealth. (And I also now know that my grandparents were supporting my parents when they lived in a decent area of London as well. Which explained why otherwise nice middle class people were down to their last tenner just before payday once or twice in my early childhood — because my image of adults at that age was that if they were out of money they could just go and get some more from the cashpoint.)

        This is such an individual thing that it’s just not going to get you a practical answer. You need to do your own research like you’d do for anything else.

        1. Cool*

          Wow, so helpful, relatable, and relevant. Thanks for taking the time to list your many, extensive and varied safety nets.

      6. Clisby*

        How much houses cost is important long-term, but in the short-term it’s probably more important to figure out whether you could afford a rental.

    23. Laura*

      I live in a very high COL area that is experiencing a housing shortage and I’ve definitely had job candidates ask about housing/commute in general but nobody has asked about my specific situation and I would think that was unusual. Everyone’s circumstances are so unique – my coworker might tell you they live with your parents and you might think that means it’s unaffordable but you wouldn’t know that my coworker is the caretaker and is the one paying their parent’s mortgage. And what is affordable for people making the same salary might be vastly different if they have student loans or other debt, kids to support, etc. I do think if you are moving somewhere that is notoriously expensive and you ask about it as a general question people might offer specifics.

    24. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      In general I volunteer information quite openly, but as an interviewer that question would come off as weird to me. Like the applicant was trying to figure out if I’m legitimately “established enough” in life to be in a manager role over them…

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I think I would wonder if they were trying, subtly, to find out something else, something possible related to some prejudice they had, like as a middle aged woman, if a man asked me if I were married when I was interviewing him, I might wonder if he is trying to figure out if I’m one of these feminist types that won’t give in to a man

      2. GythaOgden*

        Same. I’d also have to answer that my situation is pretty unique in a good way and to get it they’d have to have been born to two overachievers, marry someone who’d invested in property and managed to double his money, squirreled away a lot of cash and took out two life insurance policies of 60 grand each with an additional dodgy genetic mutation that killed him in his forties and left me financially secure enough to be able to afford to live in a comfortable suburban home with all mod cons and with the only dependent being a scraggly ficus plant I nursed back to life from a single leaf when my husband died. (I want a kitticat but that’s a promotion or two away as yet.) My worst nightmare (literally a dream I just had) is my mum deciding I don’t play on my PS5 enough and giving it away to someone else.

        You’re not going to get sensible answers on an individual level.

    25. Pop*

      I would say that the only reason to ask about these things would be very specific circumstances: extremely rural areas, or areas with high seasonal populations that make it difficult to find year round housing. If you’re moving to rural Alaska, for example, employers expect these questions.

      1. Stunt Apple Breeder*

        My workplaces are usually in very rural areas where winter weather can get serious. I ask the hiring manager for recommendations of where to look for housing and the best commute in the winter. Everyone so far has volunteered information on where the majority of the staff members live, and whether WFH is an option when the weather is bad.

    26. Hyaline*

      You can’t ask about *their* financials and living situations, no. I think you can probably ask broader questions like “how does the salary compare to cost of living in Big Expensive City?” or “is the high cost of living in Costropolis a barrier for many employees?” “Is the culture at Nice Company to have a longer commute?” But even that may necessitate a bluntness about compensation that many people are uncomfortable with. If it were me, I would research online and then see if I could leverage any network connections to talk to people who lived in the area about this kind of stuff.

    27. ReallyBadPerson*

      If you know the potential salary range, can you just look online at places for rent within reasonable commuting distance? I would start there and then ask more detailed questions (commuter traffic, if certain roads are well-maintained in winter, etc.)

      1. Anne Onymous*

        I feel like a lot of these questions would only serve to exclude me from consideration. I think the sad reality is that, if I can’t afford to take this job, somebody else will. There will always be people fortunate enough to live with a partner, desperate enough to live with roommates, or with rich enough parents to subsidize their rents. I doubt they’ll hire someone they think will be miserable because of the cost of living :/

        1. Nancy*

          No one is going to exclude you for asking which neighborhoods have an easier commute or which neighborhoods are popular with students/new grads (a good indicator of cost).

          Living with roommates is not terrible or desperate.

          1. I wear my sunglasses at night*

            Even in this economy there are people who live with roommates not necessarily out of desperation. And they actually enjoy each other’s company (gasp I know).

            The idea of “grown adult going off to live by themselves) is kind of a recent*, very American idea compared to a lot of other cultures and it’s not necessarily the be-all, end-all of human development.

            *compared to like the last 2000 years of anthropology or whatever

        3. Annie Says She's Okay*

          You know, my first therapist told me that she worried I was emotionally stunted because, at the grand old age of 27, I was living with a roommate and in her opinion, that’s an age when most people are living with a romantic partner or by themselves. It was so wildly out of touch with my experience that I just gaped at her – and that was our last session.

          Not everyone lives with roommates because they’re “desperate.” I have friends who have lived together for almost two decades and through multiple moves, and don’t see that changing any time, well, ever – their current apartment is lovely and they have a joint doggo. Two other friends have lived together for around 15 years and bought a house together a bit ago. I’ve lived with my current roommate for over 12 years and neither of us intend to move out – we work in the same industry, get along extremely well, and are both asexual, so why rock the boat?

          None of those relationships are or ever have been romantic, we just all got lucky enough to find dear friends we can happily live with, and some of us don’t like living alone.

        4. Starbuck*

          I think that’s overly pessimistic for the questions described! Especially asking about commute options/neighborhood tips, that’s so normal for someone new to an area. There’s plenty of ways to ask for intel on housing and transportation to get a sense of what’s manageable without screaming “I’m worried I’ll be broke” as it seems you’re worried about.

    28. Head Sheep Counter*

      You can ask about how far employees typically commute, how flexible the hours are, what a favorite place/neighborhood to learn about or land for one to get a start in the area and the like. Open ended culture questions might allow for them to give you insight.

      Further their website may speak to some of what they are doing to attract talent (large employers in HCOL areas are aware of the issue and depending on industry having challenges).

      For non-interview research – real estate companies often have lease arms that you could inquire with. Colleges will have housing boards for co-living situations. If the city has a facebook group its possible that they will have resources listed (mine does).

      Good luck!

    29. purple distractions*

      My office is located in a clump of ridiculously expensive towns, and we are aware of it. It is super common for interviewees to ask questions like “do most employees live locally, or which towns are common” at which point we talk about commute times and younger staff on average preferring to live toward the city while families live in the farther burbs, etc. And would be applicable to talking about areas of a larger city, towns in a county, etc. Agree that asking an interviewer “where do you live and do you have a roommate” would be a bit much, but asking about what seems to be the culture among staff at this salary band is totally fair game

    30. Moose*

      If I was on a hiring committee and you asked me to describe to you my personal living situation that would raise a red flag for me about your understanding of professional boundaries and make me much more likely to recommend another candidate over you.

      I would take some of the very good advice in this thread rather than as a stranger to describe to you their personal living situation.

      1. Anne Onymous*

        To be fair, if I sound as though I don’t understand professional norms it’s because I don’t! I’m interviewing for my first professional job—it would be remarkable if I didn’t have much to learn about what is and isn’t acceptable. In any case, thanks to the responses I’ve received I have a much better understanding of how to approach this issue (not that I was ever seriously suggesting being quite as blunt as my original message probably suggested).

        1. GythaOgden*

          You were absolutely right to ask us :). Just don’t do it in an interview and you’ll be fine. (FWIW I was awake panicking one night after getting an interview for an internal job that required one day a month in a regional hub office and cried. I was worried about the cost of travel into London being so expensive that I’d be unable to do even that. Then I found out that (a) they had relaxed that specific requirement and (b) because my employer is property management and thus has people who have to travel between sites rather than commute every day to a fixed site, as well as being in the public sector with all the pay-set-by-government no-raises-until-Rachel-Reeves-says-so BS, we get a very generous travel allowance to facilitate cross-regional travel which applies to in-office days if we’re more than ten miles away from the target office.

          So I totally know the feeling and why you’re asking.

          But yeah, I think it’s a bad idea as a direct question, because everyone’s situation is so different. I am lucky in many ways regarding my finances given my family situation and late husband’s financial prudence despite being in a job that paid only a penny above minimum wage that I was in the awkward situation of offering to buy a load of groceries for one of the senior managers I support, who was caught in the interest rate increase trap with her mortgage suddenly going up. Her children were having to help her out until she sorted everything out. With that kind of dynamic you really can’t glean anything useful from individuals; you have to look at what landlords are charging relative to the pay you’d be getting and how they manage their rentals etc and map that onto your own lifestyle and needs.

          1. Anne Onymous*

            I really appreciate your response(s). I know I’ve probably come across quite badly in this conversation but I’m just worried about my personal situation and future prospects. I’ll try my best to read this thread again in a few days and use the advice as best I can. Thank you again.

            1. GythaOgden*

              I totally know the feeling. Been there so many times and felt the pain and anxiety. A lot of it is in my own head, and that’s when it gets incredibly stressful and exhausting.

              Please accept my best wishes for your job hunt and know that anxiety is the real enemy here. Take care of yourself and give yourself a break from that maelstrom because it’s a real thief of time and energy.

    31. Rara Avis*

      We have a lot of trouble hiring single people from out of the area because they see the salary offer, see the average rent/cost of a starter home (currently in the news as the most expensive in the US, yay), and nope out.

      1. Anne Onymous*

        Having thread this blog for a while and seen just how many companies are guilty of indirect discrimination for, say, refusing to hire felons, I wonder whether a case could be made that low salaries constitute an indirect form of discrimination against single people (I don’t know whether being single is itself a protected category, but marital and religious status are certainly covered). I doubt it would get very far, but I’d be interested to see how someone could argue against something that seems so obvious.

        1. nnn*

          Marital status is not a protected class. Low salaries aren’t a form of discrimination unless people are paid differently based on protected characteristics.

        2. JustThatExpensive*

          It’s not so much that the salaries are low, it’s that the cost of living us so high. I live in a suburb of one of the three cities that rotate as most expensive (Boston, San Francisco, New York) because I can’t afford to live in the city itself. I make a six figure salary and spend over half my tajehome pay on rent – just rent, no other expenses. I do not live in a particularly luxurious apartment or one of the “expensive” suburbs.

        3. Nancy*

          It’s not discrimination to pay single people the same salary as partnered people. Employers offer the salary they offer, and it’s up to the employee to determine how it will work for them.

          I am single and live in a high cost of living city. I lived with roommates when I first started out, as do many people who move here after college. Look online, at city forums, and cost of living calculators. If your college has an alumni club, also try there. Ours always has new grads in our facebook group asking about cost of living in our area.

          1. Anne Onymous*

            I didn’t mean to suggest that people should be treated or paid differently based on whether they’re single or part of a couple. What I did mean is that if the salary isn’t enough for a single person to live on then that could be interpreted as an indirect form of discrimination. I know that single people aren’t a protected category and that this may simply be an unavoidable fact of life, but if it means there are jobs from which single people are effectively excluded then I think it’s still worthy of complaint.

              1. Anne Onymous*

                If refusing to hire felons is a form of indirect discrimination, then not paying enough for single people to be able to pay rent is certainly a form of indirect discrimination too! It may be perfectly legal—in fact, I’d be willing to bet just about anything that it is—but what’s legal and what’s right obviously aren’t always in alignment.

                1. I wear my sunglasses at night*

                  “If refusing to hire felons is a form of indirect discrimination, then not paying enough for single people to be able to pay rent is certainly a form of indirect discrimination too!”

                  But again, it’s not actually discrimination. The real issues are HCOL, inflation, wage stagnation, an out of control rental and overall housing market, etc (which all also affect non-single people too by the way. A romantic couple can be just as broke-glass poor as a singleton).

                2. Anne Onymous*

                  It isn’t _direct_ discrimation, but I would contend that it is still discrimination. Rara Avis stated earlier that her company has trouble hiring single people because of the prohibitive cost of living in her city; if the only thing stopping otherwise qualified candidates from accepting jobs is the fact that they are not in a relationship and cannot otherwise afford to pay rent then they are being _indirectly_ discriminated against.

                  Again, this is almost certainly legal and is probably unavoidable—heck, you may even think it’s justified!—but I don’t see how anyone can see it as anything other than an indirect form of discrimination.

                4. Nancy*

                  No it is not, and I say that as a single person living in a HCOL city. I know married people who turned down jobs because it wasn’t enough. It happens.

                5. Anne Onymous*

                  If the only thing preventing someone from accepting a job for which she is otherwise qualified is the fact that she cannot afford to pay rent without support from a partner then she is being discriminated against on the basis of her relationship status. It’s almost certainly legal, it’s probably unavoidable, and it may even be justified, but it is still a form of _indirect_ discrimination.

                6. Anne Onymous*

                  Sorry I missed your comment, Zebra. I referred to the refusal to hire felons as indirect discrimination because I’ve read that it disproportionately impacts people of color—that is, it constitutes _direct_ discrimination against felons and _indirect_ discrimination against those from disadvantaged groups. I see this similarly: A company that doesn’t pay enough for a single person to live on isn’t _directly_ discriminating against single applicants—it isn’t outright refusing to hire them—but if they cannot afford to accept these jobs then single applicants are being _indirectly_ discriminated against.

                7. Nancy*

                  Single people can live with friends or find a roommate. That is common in many cities and for some people preferable. Partnered people have to consider salary as well, especially with kids.

                  Turning down a job because it is not enough to afford rent in the area person’s wants is not discrimination if the person happens to be single.

                9. Anne Onymous*

                  “Turning down a job because it is not enough to afford rent in the area person’s wants is not discrimination if the person happens to be single.”

                  But being single and turning down the job are directly related in many cases. I’m not talking about people who are turning down jobs and who just so happen to be single; I’m talking about people who are turning down jobs precisely _because_ they are single! I repeat: If the only thing preventing a person from accepting a job is her relationship status then she is in effect being discriminated against because of that status! Again, there may be ways of alleviating the effects of this discrimination (e.g., finding roommates), but I don’t actually understand how anyone could seriously disagree that low salaries and high costs of living have a greater impact on single people more than they do on those in relationships.

                  “I hope you don’t make this sort of comment in an interview.”

                  Believe me, I know the power dynamics at play in interviews: I know my place.

                10. candle hoarder*

                  What if you aren’t single, but your partner is a SAHP so you have to decline the offer because it’s not enough money. Is it discrimination then? What kind of discrimination? What is the discrimination based on, and who is doing the discriminating?

                  Do you see why your assertion makes very little sense?

                11. Anne Onymous*

                  Yes, it would be _indirect_ discrimination against those who choose that lifestyle. Again, such discrimination may not be malicious, it may be legal, it may be unavoidable, and it may be justified, but it is still, in effect, discrimination.

                  Even if you disagree—although I see no basis on which you could—why am I getting so much pushback? What is so wrong with believing that someone who works a full-time job should be able to support herself? Isn’t that fundamental? Have we really become so debased as a society that we expect grown adults to be content living with strangers until well into their thirties, forties, and fifties? If you’re OK with that, that’s your business. But it shouldn’t be normalized and forced on the rest of us.

                12. candle hoarder*

                  Adults aren’t debasing themselves by having roommates. That’s an absurdly dramatic way to describe a completely normal living arrangement that lots of people actually enjoy. You are coming across as very out of touch, which I suppose makes sense since you’ve never had a job before and are still living with your parents in your 30’s. Good luck out there.

                13. Nancy*

                  It is not debasing oneself to live with roommates. Choosing to do so to afford rent is supporting oneself. And some people enjoy it because they prefer to live with another person

                  Who is turning down a job solely because they are single? That makes no sense. Turning down a job because of low salaries happens regardless of relationship status.

                14. Anne Onymous*

                  See Rara Acis’s previous comment. If someone is single and doesn’t want to have roommates then that person will necesaarily have less purchasing power than a couple who live together, making it difficult if not impossible to accept jobs in certain HCOL areas. I have repeatedly conceded that some people are happy to have roommates. That’s great. But some of us aren’t. We shouldn’t be forced to live at home indefinitely, with all the stigma that entails (see candle hoarder’s snide comment) because we aren’t willing to compromise on our personal safety or privacy just for the privilege of being able to work in our chosen field.

                15. sarah*

                  It’s because you’re making assertions about employment law that are factually incorrect. You might WANT it to be illegal because you consider it indirect discrimination but the law doesn’t agree with you.

              2. Anne Onymous*

                I haven’t said anything about the law—in fact, I’ve repeatedly said that it’s almost certainly legal to offer salaries that effectively make it impossible for single people to accept positions in certain HCOL areas. I’m saying nothing more and nothing less than that it’s discriminatory in the literal, not legal, sense of the word.

          2. Anne Onymous*

            I’ve had jobs—I’m interviewing for my first _professional_ job. (And I have no idea where you got my age from…) In any case, I think you’re being unfair. If there are people out there who are happy to live with strangers until well into middle age, so be it. I’m not one of them, and I resent that I have no option but to live in a way that I think is both potentially dangerous and degrading—I had roommates in college and am speaking to my own experience—if I’m ever to move somewhere where there’s work. Your passive aggressive sign-off is noted.

            2. Coconutty*

              None of which makes it discriminatory that housing is more expensive if you’re the only person shouldering the cost

            3. Moose*

              Have you had a really negative experience with roommates or something? Your attitude towards a really common living situation seems pretty extreme. I lived with roommates up until I moved in with my husband in 2019 and I never considered it degrading or debasing. In fact, some of my roommates have become some of my closest friends.

              Where are all these very strong feelings coming from?

              1. Anne Onymous*

                My experience is probably no worse than most, but that in itself is a pretty damning indictment. Due to a miscommunication with the administration, I couldn’t stay in college-provided accommodation and ended up living with strangers for several years. They weren’t necessarily bad people, but they were loud, messy, and threw parties that led on one occassion to a total stranger passing out on my bed and throwing up before being led away by friends. I also woke up to find my room full of prospective renters I’d never seen before because my roommates didn’t bother to tell me they’d scheduled a viewing (the landlord showed them around while I literally had to hide under the covers). Combined with all the other petty arguments roommates have, and my strong belief that adults shouldn’t _have_ to live with each other in order to make ends meet, I am very, very reluctant to live with anyone I haven’t known and trusted for several years, which is a big problem in my case since I want to move to another city.

                I’m sorry I sound so defensive about this. I just think it’s crazy that people are so comfortable with the status quo: It’s fine for some people, but it really isn’t for everyone, and people shouldn’t have to choose between having to live with strangers if they want to get on in life or rotting at home.

                1. Moose*

                  I am really curious about how you came to the conclusion that your experience is “no worse than most,” because it absolutely is. What you went through sounds really bad and is honestly one of the worst stories I’ve heard. I have heard worse but those folks were a mess in general and weren’t living with strangers.

                  So yeah what you went through was bad, is not the norm, and outside standard roommate experience. If you’re dead set against roommates you might want to start researching low cost of living areas. There are lots and COL calculators to help you research.

                2. Anne Onymous*

                  No one I told at the time seemed to think it was a big deal and I’ve heard similar stories over the years so I assume my experience isn’t exceptional—bad, yes, but not exceptionally bad. In any case, I appreciate your response. It’s exhausting having to justify why I don’t want to risk repeating the miserable time I had in college to strangers all day so I appreciate you making me feel just a little less crazy.

            4. I wear my sunglasses at night*

              “If someone is single and doesn’t want to have roommates then that person will necessarily have less purchasing power than a couple who live together, making it difficult if not impossible to accept jobs in certain HCOL areas.”

              Okay where are you getting the idea that a single person will always have less purchasing power than a couple living together????

              Because again, there are a lot of singletons pulling in high six figure salaries and a lot of couples whose combined incomes are nowhere near that. Or couples where one of them is not working at all. Or maybe both members of the couple are working and making decent money but it’s gobbled up by student loans, childcare, child expenses (ie school tuition, general costs of child rearing these days) , overall living expenses these days, supporting other family members like elderly parents, a mortgage with a high interest rate, etc. One half of the couple job searches but only finds salary ranges that don’t really yield much more (if any) than what they currently make so it wouldn’t really make sense to jump ship depending on factors like health insurance, PTO, and WFH policies.

              I’m not trying to be harsh, I’m just trying to understand this very skewed perspective you have on how jobs and life work.

              And that’s before we get into the weird looking down your nose at people who choose not to live alone even if it’s for financial reasons. So YOU have had negative roommate experiences in college or whenever. Okay. Great. So have a lot of people. That sucks and it’s your prerogative to choose to not ever again live with someone if you can’t help it. But it’s important to remember:
              1) college roommate experiences and “two or more adult roommates out in the real world with real jobs in a real house or apartment” are very much NOT the same thing. Some elements might be harder, some might be easier. So extrapolating that “all adult roommate situations must be terrible!!!” from a college roommate situation is not a great idea because it’ll yield bad data.
              2). None of this is actually how discrimination works whether indirectly or directly. Can you prove in a legal precedent how it is discriminatory?

              1. Anne Onymous*

                I’ve addressed most of this elsewhere so I’ll try to keep this brief: (1) I’m talking about _my_ situation. _I_ have less purchasing power as a single person than I would as part of a couple (and yes, I’m assuming that both of us would work because _most_ couples consist of two working adults). (2) I don’t look down my nose at those who _choose_ to live with roommates; I do, however, think it’s insane that we live in a society in which many adults are unable to support themselves through their own labor and effectively have to pool their resources with other adults in order to make ends meet. I don’t look down on those in this situation—I may soon be one of them—but I have a pretty dim view of those who seek to defend what I regard as a fundamentally unfair and humiliating system (again, _when it is not a choice_). (3) It is discrimination. It isn’t _direct_ discrimination. It isn’t illegal (as we know from history, discrimination isn’t always illegal—in fact, it has at certain times and in certain places been _required_). But it is still a form of discrimination. That anyone would disagree with this is just weird. If someone could not accept a job for which she is wholly qualified because her would-be employer either will not or cannot accommodate her disability then no one would disagree that she had been discriminated against. It may not be malicious. It may not be direct. It may not even be illegal. But it would still amount to discrimination. I feel the same way about those who are single and cannot afford to accept jobs in HCOL areas. I’m not saying that it violates this law or that: I’m saying that it is (indirect) discrimination in the literal sense of the word.

                1. Nancy*

                  It us not discrimination in any sense of the word. You clearly do not understand what that means since you keep bringing up issues like felons and disabilities, which do have laws.

                  I highly suggest you take the time to do research and set a budget, then find a place that meets your needs. If that is a lower cost of living city because you must live alone, then that’s the best place for you. That is what all adults do. We don’t get to live wherever we want regardless
                  Of salary, job, whatever.

                  Good luck to you.

                2. Anne Onymous*

                  It is _indirect_ discrimination. If a business refuses to hire felons, it isn’t _directly_ discriminating between candidates based on race but it is likely to do so _indirectly_ (look up the concept of disparate impact if you want to better understand what I mean) where certain groups are disproportionately likely to end up in the criminal justice system. I repeat: I am not talking abot what is and isn’t considered discrimination according to any particular piece of legislation. If you and other commenters don’t understand that by now then there’s really nothing more to say.

        4. GythaOgden*

          What goes out must come in. Businesses are at the mercy of their finances and economics, both macro and micro, and you can’t use equality laws to make them pay you anything unless it’s flagrantly discriminatory.

          Unfortunately, the practical alternative to this situation we have here is Brezhnevite Russia, which was renowned for its fairly poor standard of consumer living. The same market that produces HCOL areas is that which keeps us in all the other comforts of life in the 21st century. It’s definitely a bit of a crock, but even in more socially democratic states, we have what we have because you folks in the US ultimately subsidise a lot of the innovation and consumer development that we then take for granted. And we have the same strains on our economy as you do on yours, coupled with salaries that have made some Americans here very surprised and upset by.

          It’s not easy to fight capitalist economics with legislation designed to protect identity groups from harm, any more than it’s discrimination to not hire a blind person to drive a bus. There’s economics in place here that really are fixed laws for many businesses, and while it’s easy to envisage a society where it might actually be possible to argue that, you’d be looking at the stagnation era of the USSR, which didn’t work very well for anyone concerned.

    32. RagingADHD*

      Not the interviewer personally, no. But if you’re past the first interview, I think it’s totally reasonable to bring up that you’re researching the area and ask about housing costs, commute times, and what are some good neighborhoods to look at.

      Since you already asked the salary range at or before the first interview, (You did that, right?) you should be able to put 2 and 2 together.

    33. TheBunny*

      Not even slightly.

      You can get cost of living info easily via Google and while the question may be intended as innocent, were a candidate to specifically ask the questions you put in your question, fair or not, I’d say you are a candidate we should pass on.

  8. Mouse*

    I started a new job and things are unfortunately…not great. But I have some golden handcuffs keeping me here for 2 years. I’m looking for a good motivational mantra to keep me going when things get rough! What are your favorite phrases you tell yourself to get through the hard days?

    1. Nicosloanica*

      This depends on why you hate it, I think. If the people are cruel or abusive, that’s much tougher than just if the work is boring or you don’t like the open office. If you are making good money, one thing I did when I was committed to quitting but couldn’t do it yet was book myself a nice little weekend getaway every month, so that I always had something coming up that I was looking forward to. That wouldn’t work over 2 years of course so might have to be once a quarter or something. Also, I don’t know if this will help you, but I made a stack of 24 quarters and moved one off the stack at the end of every week (I had to stay for 24 weeks). Seeing the passing visually helped me.

      1. Mouse*

        Thank you! I really like the visualization idea. I think that’ll work well for me.

        It’s certainly not abusive, but nobody’s very friendly. I’ve been here for five weeks and haven’t met most of the team, including my actual manager (who I don’t work with day-to-day but will do my performance review, etc.). Expectations are very unclear—I was reprimanded for breaking hybrid-work expectations that I didn’t know existed. The work hasn’t been quite what I was expecting, though the job is project-based so that’ll hopefully change soon. Just general disappointment, really.

        1. oofda*

          I’m sorry. I’m in the same boat — I moved for a job, and I don’t love it. Work is boring, but I can cope. My teammates have weekly lunch, and somehow I’m never invited, although most of the people are pleasant to my face. (I’m decades older, so maybe that’s why they don’t invite me?). It’s going to be a long few years. I’m stuck here minimum 2, but more likely longer, as it’s hard to get hired in your 60’s in tech.

        2. greytladyOH*

          I would ask for a meeting with your manager and push your own training agenda. Who reprimanded you for violating hybrid work expectations? I would have said you weren’t told about it and then tried to find out what else you’re supposed to know going forward. Make a point to introduce yourself to the rest of the team. Sure – they should be welcoming you but not everyone understands how to do that. Don’t let their rudeness/incompetence affect your performance and how you interact with others. Good luck!

    2. Chaos Coordinator*

      “Not my monkeys, not my circus.” – when something is not my problem, no matter how whackadoo it seems.

      “Well this is an adventure.” – to keep myself at a remove from the crazy, to treat it like a weird time, and not an ordeal.

      Wishing you luck!

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Our current mantra seems to be “Like the kidney stone, this too shall pass.” It might suck in the passing, and it might not be the last issue, but eventually there will be an end and it will be better.

    5. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      “I made it through all the hard days I’ve had so far.” Doesn’t make it better necessarily but helps with perspective.

    6. Hiring Manager (they/them)*

      I was in a very crummy job for 2 years and at the 1 year mark was ready to move on – but job hunting for something good takes time!

      My therapist recommended telling myself “this is where I am right now, but this is not where I will always be”. It became something I told myself on my commute in the morning and really helped balance things out. Sometimes I still tell myself that – I love my current job but we also all have those days where we would rather be anywhere else.

      2. Neosmom*

        I just put a version of your therapist’s phrase on a small sticky note and attached it to my work monitor! Thank you.

      2. Admin of Sys*

        This – especially if you have those golden handcuffs and a specific end date for them. Consider it all a part of a whole. It’s like chores – the individual actions aren’t fun, but they lead to the good end-state, a clean home. So the day to day work is the slightly annoying part of the larger goal, whatever that may be.

    8. Busy Middle Manager*

      Every job I’ve had started off feeling not good and with awkward moments or periods of nothing to do, and slowly improved over time until I forgot that original discomfort. Except once when I quit after a month. But probably 70% chance things naturally improve. Also who gives you work or forwards you questions or invites you to meetings if you never met your boss?!

      1. Mouse*

        It’s project work, so I have a project leader that will change with each new assignment but my manager will do my review, approve time off, set my goals (haven’t done that yet!), and so on. Your comment is helpful to hear – this is only my second job, and I worked at the last place for 7 years, so I think part of my discomfort is just dealing with change.

        1. a fever you can't sweat 0ut*

          hugs! i am in the same boat of recently leaving a job i thought i’d be at for the rest of my career. i am still grieving what happened and my new normal. but this new place offers me a lot of opportunity so i’m trying to embrace it. this too shall pass. <3

    9. EngGirl*

      The comment above about giving yourself things to look forward to is critical. Because you have a specific end date in mind you can also incorporate your future plans into this. Like if your goal is to leave in 2 years, plan that you’re going to need X amount of time to job hunt. Then before that you’ll need Y amount of time to polish your resume or whatever. Keep working backwards and set yourself milestones to get to where you want to be.

      As for mantras/stuff to get you through the day today, I’m a Disney nerd so I’ve always liked “keep moving forward” and/or giving myself little pep talks that are situation specific and reminding myself of other times I got through things. Like when I’ve had a difficult boss I’d remind myself about what an a** my advisor was in grad school and how if I could handle him this was cake.

    10. I feel you!*

      I’ve been stuck for 1.5 years in my job at an org with what sounds like similar cultural issues (virtually no onboarding, very unclear expectations, little interest in relationship-building among the team, leadership not seeming to care about me, etc.). What’s kept me going is this: “I would rather have this job than no job.”

      I also try to invest in relationships and find outlets for my passions outside of work. I’ve been volunteering and mentoring. I spend as much time as I can with family and friends who build me up and can validate that my work environment is crappy. I truly hope that things get better for you, though, and that this discomfort is just temporary!

  9. Not Jobless (Yet)*

    What can I do when my supervisors orders me to use a free app instead of the appropriate professional software? She has said that we will decide together which one to use for each project, but of course she doesn’t consider my input. There are tons of issues with using the free app, including repetitive motion, which to me is a pretty big deal. I need to decide if a grievance is the best next step. I’m not planning on staying in this job forever, but I do need to hold on to this job for a little while. I’m expecting her to try to fire me if I don’t use the free app every time.

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      My questions would be:
      How much is an annual subscription?
      How often do you use that software in a day/week?
      For example, at my company, because I only use X software 8 hours a week, I get to use Adobe X because an Adobe sub is cheaper than the $10,000 annual subscription to Industry Standard X.

      1. Not Jobless (Yet)*

        The cost isn’t an issue. I still have the software. We have several other people who are using it in different ways. If she told me I had to get rid of the software, I wouldn’t be able to do my job.

          1. Not Jobless (Yet)*

            She thinks the app will result in newer, fresher work. It really won’t do that, and it limits what I can do in ways that make it worse.

            1. Admin of Sys*

              Can you create documentation of the disadvantages? Make sure to include the advantages for the new software and dislikes of the old one that she’s listed as well. But setup a pro / con layout of switching to the new software vs using the existing software, and then list mitigations for the issues she has with you sticking to the old one. And be willing to consider switching if she provides sufficient mitigations for the new software, or at least look like it on paper.

              1. Not Jobless (Yet)*

                I’ve done a list of issues with the app and differences between the app and the software, but now she’s refusing to talk about it. She really doesn’t care that it’s very disrespectful to ask someone to do their job with inadequate tools. It’s like asking someone to build a house with tools from Dollar Tree.

                Completely switching to the app wouldn’t be possible, because there are a lot of things that aren’t possible to do with the app. Part of the problem is my boss only sees end products, and she doesn’t know what needs to happen to get there. She is also not interested in learning what I need to do to get to that end product.

            2. Pay no attention...*

              Is the free app the stripped down version of the paid professional desktop version or is it just a free app that does a similar function to your professional software? Can you ever export/import from one to the other ie. PDF, MP4?

              I sympathize because my boss LOVES Canva and I, a professional graphic designer, loath it when I have to work in it. I’ve tried to get boss to at least learn Express because then we can use the Library function to share, but she is familiar with Canva and truly can work in it to create some pretty nice mock ups…that I then recreate in the full desktop versions of Adobe.

              She also loves PowerPoint for doing things that PP is not really meant to do… So the same, she creates her vision in PP, and I recreate it professionally in InDesign.

              Any chance of convincing your boss to use the app as an idea generator/mock up tool and then you export (if possible) or recreate in the professional software?

              2. Not Jobless (Yet)*

                It would be nice if we could do this, but she is so in loooove with Canva and she will not believe that it’s really not better than InDesign! I’m sure she’d be happy if I did everything in Canva, but it’s like going backwards several decades, so I’d rather not.

                1. Pay no attention...*

                  That’s awful because my boss at least knows that Canva is to graphic design as McDonald’s is to food. It’s not professional, but it’s good for cheap and fast final output, depending on what you’re trying to accomplish.

                  I’m not sure what kinds of design you are doing — digital / social media vs. high end print — but Canva does a good job-ish for fast, low end projects. Templates and a brand kit can help immensely with repetitive tasks. Otherwise, even Adobe is pushing hard for graphic designers to use their stripped down apps — eg. Express and Rush — for things like social media, so it’s a graphic design trend that isn’t going away and can be a resume bullet point in the future if you move on from this job.

    2. Not Jobless (Yet)*

      A little bit of background–my supervisor asked me to put together a list of the problems with the app. I have done a list of the problems and differences between the app and the software. She won’t talk about it now.

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        Does your supervisor have a list of reasons why they prefer the free app?
        Is there a way they would know you did the work in one app vs another?

        1. Not Jobless (Yet)*

          Part of what she likes about the app is that other people can collaborate on it. There are times when this is good, but she’s insisting on me using it when I’m the only person working on a project. I’m okay with using it if there’s a good reason.

        2. Not Jobless (Yet)*

          There are ways she can find out whether I used the app or the software. I can use the software anyway, but she’ll find out.

    3. EHSManager*

      Is there someone in IT that could help? Often they don’t like the free apps because it opens the company to viruses, etc.

      1. Not Jobless (Yet)*

        Officially IT was telling us not to use the app. But she is a good friend of the director of our whole organization, so she gets whatever she wants. Yes, there is a whole other story there.

    4. Chauncy Gardener*

      Do you have an IT department? If so, do they have a process for vetting software? And can you loop them in?

    5. Helewise*

      Sometimes people aren’t persuadable, or even reasonable. This sounds really, really frustrating, but it sounds like using the app may have become a condition of your employment. If that’s the case, you’ll have to decide for yourself if this is something you’re willing to do in order to keep your job while looking for something new.

      1. Not Jobless (Yet)*

        This is exactly the problem. Very soon, she is going to demand that I use this app for something that it really won’t work for. The line for that is a little hazy, because I’m working on a project right now that technically could be done in Canva, but in reality it wouldn’t work because Canva isn’t precise enough with spacing to make it work. And creating is one thing–editing it would be a nightmare. I don’t want to quit my job right now, so I’m trying to figure out what to do next week when she says I have to do this in Canva, or she’ll try to fire me. I’d quit if I could, but that’s not an option right now.

        1. Annie*

          Another way you can try to push back is, if the inherent limitations of the free software mean you have to use it in a way that aggravates a disability vs. the other software, is an ADA accommodation.

    6. Juneybug*

      She sounds like it has to be her idea, not yours, on what software is the best. Ugh!

      I would play her silly game and do the best you can. When she points out things she wants to change on your project, just sweetly point out that Canva can not do that but InDesign could. Then be quiet (no pointing out this why she was wrong, etc.). Her brain might realize she needs to update software and she will come up with a reason why “her idea” will work/be better than Canva.

  10. Conference Attendee*

    I’ve read some of the posts on here about attending professional conferences. Most of the advice I’ve found pertains to times when you’re representing your company or a new graduate looking to network. But what about when you’re just going for the continuing education credits? The conference does not have a dress code listed on the website, so does this mean I could get by with jeans and a regular shirt? And if I have no plans to network, can I just skip all the stuff between the breakout presentations? Is there any other advice I should consider?

    1. OrdinaryJoe*

      No Dress Code for me equals nice, dark jeans and a logo’ed polo shirt and I feel like I fit in perfectly fine. I’ve been remote since 2017 so that’s as good as it’s going to get at this point LOL

      I also skip the social events and head to my room to get caught up on work and it’s fine. I feel like I make enough small talk prior to the sessions.

    2. Nicosloanica*

      Conferences have gotten increasingly casual, I think, particularly if you’re not there trying to impress anyone. You’d probably be okay in whatever you wanted to wear. I like to network a little even if I don’t “need” to network, because that’s actually the best time to do it, but to me that means pushing myself to do one or two activities out of the whole weekend that I might otherwise prefer to skip – and giving myself permission to take it easy in the hotel / visiting the city or whatever otherwise. I go to a LOT of conferences related to my side hustle and it is very exhausting after a day or so.

    3. dulcinea47*

      This probably depends on your field, what do you wear normally? I work in an “office casual” type of job and the dress at conferences is always fairly casual too. However I’ve seen groups of other conference attendees who are all wearing suits or at least slacks & a button up.

      1. Conference Attendee*

        I usually wear business casual but am really not interested in having to wear that all weekend. So, I guess my question is really just will they kick me out if I wear jeans if not dress code is specified?

        1. Reebee*

          I mean, why not bring business casual, jeans casual, quietly size up what most other attendees are wearing, and go from there?

    4. The Prettiest Curse*

      The dress code would really depend on your industry. I organised a conference which nurses attended for CE credit and we got the whole gamut of attendee outfits from suits with pumps and pearls to flip-flops and Juicy Couture sweats. (The conference was in Southern California, so people would sometimes dress a bit more informally due to the warm weather.) The nursing conference tended more to the business casual/casual end of the spectrum, but I imagine that accountancy or law conferences would be a lot more formal.

      I would start with business casual and then you can dress up or down as necessary, but personally I don’t care what people wear to the conferences I arrange, just as long as they are comfortable and their clothing doesn’t breach our code of conduct by having slurs or inappropriate imagery.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        My state CPA society had dinner meetings, at which people wore what they wore to the office that day – business suits, business casual, sometimes shirtsleeves with the suit jacket on the back of the chair. People didn’t dress up or down for the meeting specifically; they just didn’t make the effort to change after work.
        When we had all-day or multi-day meetings, basically only the software salesmen and *maybe* a few of the speakers wore suits. When you have to dress up for work every day, it’s so great not to have to sometimes.
        Can’t speak for lawyers in general, but the smattering of tax attorneys we attracted were dressed pretty much the same as the CPAs.

    5. Spreadsheet Queen*

      When I’ve been to professional events, I don’t typically see people in jeans, but not everyone is in formal business attire. (And I think those men in full matched suits mostly skip the necktie). So in addition to suits and suit separates, there are men in khakis (typically with a button-down, not a polo or golf shirt) and women in more casual sets which might include knit dresses, maxi skirts, ponte knit pants and the like. A woman could probably wear a pair of super dark trouser cut jeans as long as she wore a blazer, but no regular jeans, and men in jeans would be completely out of place. But I’m in contracting. Some fields are probably on the more formal end. I’d bet IT goes more casual. (Every IT person I know lives in khakis and button up shirts – usually in some shade/pattern of blue. I don’t know why.)

    6. Lady Danbury*

      For the dress code, I would try to find pictures of past conferences and use that as a guide. Check their website, social media, etc. In my industry, conferences tend to be more business casual, so jeans aren’t the norm. If you truly don’t care about networking, feel free to skip it. Sometimes there are nice freebies, lol.

    7. Cj*

      when I started attending professional conferences as a CPA in the ’90s, everybody was in suits and ties. by 2000 it was casual slacks and a nice top. 2010 was jeans and a decent top.

      I haven’t been to an in person conference since the pandemic, but since there are a lot of CPA’S that now work remotely, I would imagine people would dress even more casually, like they do in their home office.

    8. Unpleased*

      Absolutely don’t skip all of the networking, especially if your org is reimbursing any of your costs. It’s not just about the connections you personally make. It’s also about connecting your org with other orgs. We get business that can come to fruition a year or two later based on quick networking conversations. Clients also recommend us to others during the networking sessions at their own conferences. Plus other people are often shy or reserved and they can be great to talk to.

      1. Conference Attendee*

        I’m not there as a representative of my organization, nor am I in a position of making connections on behalf of my organization. Furthermore, I have zero interest in acting in that capacity. I’m really just there to get my continuing education credits.

    9. CommanderBanana*

      Depends on the industry! I’ve been running conferences for many years, and it’s always interesting to see how every industry has it’s own little “uniform.”

      Teachers – comfy, layers, tote bags, lots of knitted accessories
      Writers – the above, with a small subsection of all-in-black Serious Poets
      Engineers – jeans, company polo shirt, comfy shoes
      Rural electeds – jeans, giant belt buckles, cowboy hats, fleece vest
      Lawyers – wall to wall suits

      I would say a good rule of thumb is to wear whatever would be appropriate to wear to a meeting in whatever your particular industry is. Plus layers because conference centers are always over-air-conditioned.

      1. MCL*

        Co-signed.

        Oh wait – one thing to add. Wear shoes that you don’t mind walking around in all day in different elements. For example if you want to leave for lunch or dinner and it’s raining cats and dogs. Conference centers can be huge and it’s nice to not get blisters.

        If you do not have plans to network you can find a quiet corner or go for coffee during the no-conflict times between sessions, or even go to your hotel room if that’s nearby. Plenty of people do that!

    10. Nonsense*

      Speaking as someone who’s still considered on the younger end of my career (<10 years) and who also has a big industry conference coming up:

      1) Dress Code
      I've seen everything from jeans and sandals to full suits with heels. Presenters tend to be more dressed up and the people manning the booths are 50/50 for business dress vs. business casual. I would say that overall attendees veer to business casual, and jeans with a branded top is the most common outfit. If you don't have a branded top, try to pick one that's either in your company's colors or is at least a nicer top. And definitely, definitely wear good walking shoes.

      2) Networking
      Try to get in some networking. Honestly, it doesn't have to be very much at all – just walk around the booths and chat with people. You might meet some interesting people, you might not. If there's 4 presentations in a day, only attend 3 and use that block of time to wander and chat.

      3) After Hours
      As tiring as it may sound, try to make it to an after-hours event. In my industry, there's a… shall we call, "friendly" competition among the bigger companies to throw an after-hours party. These always take place within a block or two of the conference center so people can still get back to their hotels ok, and believe me, some of my industry colleagues make a point of trying to hit up every party they can. People are a lot more relaxed at these parties, so it's easier to talk to folks and enjoy yourself. It's still networking, but the formality is gone.

      4) Other
      Figure out how you're getting to and from the conference a week ahead of time. If you're driving in, some garages let you prepay for a day pass now. If you're staying at a nearby hotel, pull up a map and get familiar with how to get around the area. If you plan to rideshare, check if there's specific drop off locations and where those compare to your event.

      And seriously, wear comfortable shoes. Pack some moleskin and bandaid too. You'll be someone's hero.

    11. Sled dog mama*

      Conferences in my field have a huge variety, we tend to have students and those nearing the end of their career dressed pretty casually (sometimes jeans) while the majority are dressed exactly as they would for a day in the office.

    12. DressForComfort*

      I’ve gone to many conferences in casual dress; it wouldn’t occur to me to dress more nicely unless I was explicitly told to do so. But I also typically dressed casually for jobs when I’ve gone into offices (for most places I’ve worked the dress code was you had to get dressed. Tank tops and shorts were fine when it was hot, sweatpants in the winter, etc).

      Unless you’ve been told otherwise or are going specifically to meet and impress someone I’d wear comfortable clothes (whatever that means to you) as the days are often long so why be more uncomfortable than needed?

  11. Job search woes*

    Alright, I’m lucky to be here, but for anyone who has dealt with this situation before…if you’re in the running for two positions and one makes an offer first, is there any professional way to let the other position know that you’d prefer them and are still interested in the role?

    For full context, I recently had final interviews for two positions, both higher ed (my current field). Job #1 is a role at another university that seems absolutely perfect for me, and the interview seemingly ended on a high note when they asked when I could start if hired. Job #2 is an internal transfer that I’m shakier on- it’s a new role in a new initiative and I’m not passionate about much of the work. (Both are lateral moves in terms of salary.)

    Job #2 called me this morning to let me know I had the job, and I asked to have until Monday to think about it. I want Job #1 so much more and would really only be accepting #2 to get away from my current position, which has heavy travel requirements and a toxic office. There’s a part of me that thinks that if I’m so reluctant to take #2, I shouldn’t be taking it at all- though my current office can be nightmarish on occasion, I’m told I’m extremely competent and in line for a promotion.

    Should I reach out to Job #1 at all? If so, how would I approach it? I’m in a rural area with few employers in this field and I don’t want to burn any bridges.

    1. Jane Bingley*

      Yes, this is totally normal! Speak to the hiring manager for Job #1 and let them know you’ve received a firm offer from someone else, but they’re your first choice, and ask them if they’d be open to making you an offer sooner. They may say no, they can’t move faster, but it won’t look weird or bad to ask.

      Also, with Job #2 being an internal transfer, you would not be totally out of bounds to accept and then leave not long after if a truly great offer from Job #1 came in. Alison has frequently used the language “an offer dropped in my lap and it was too good to pass up” and that would work here. It’s not ideal to leave after a promotion/internal transfer but it happens sometimes.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Somewhat different circumstances, but from my own experience you can absolutely contact #1 and say “I just got an offer from a different company, but I was really excited about this position, can you give me any insight on where we are in the process?” or similar.

      that said, if you’re currently employed and your gut is telling you you don’t really want #2… I would turn #2 down?

    3. FashionablyEvil*

      Yes, call Job #1! Just say, “I’m really excited about the possibility of working with you, but have an offer in hand that I need to reply to by Monday. Is there any possibility of accelerating your timeline?”

      This happens ALL the time. We always want to know if a candidate has an offer in hand somewhere else–if they’re at the top of our list, we can hustle, and if they’re not, we can tell them that we’re not able to meet that timeline.

    4. Chaos Coordinator*

      Absolutely! I would contact Job #1 and say something like:

      “I wanted to check back on your timeline for making a decision. I received another offer, but the role with you would be my first choice, because I’m really excited by . I need to get back to the other company by X date. Could you give me an idea of your time frame?”

      Good luck!

    5. Decidedly Me*

      Totally normal! In fact, during a recent job search, the recruiter (internal) asked me to let her know if I got to offer stage with another company so she could work with the hiring manager to move things along faster if at all possible.

    7. WellRed*

      I’m sure the interview went well but I’m going to say: I don’t think asking when you can start if hired is a high note. It sounds like a normal closer to me. But you don’t have to take job 2 either. You got two great interviews, you’re obviously a valuable hire. There may be more out there!

    8. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I had this exact (good) problem when interviewing for my current job – I did contact job #1 (also a university lol) and let them know about the other offer but that I preferred their position, and they did accelerate the process. The university I work for is huge and super low moving on hires, so what that looked like is that I got a relatively swift offer for a temp position with the promise that I would be hired into the perm position. So I was a temp for I think 2 months until the hiring process was complete for the perm role.

      I am SO GLAD I did reach out because in my case, job #2 had so many red flags (all the interview questions were about would I have a problem working until 7 pm, how about dealing with irate users, etc.), was 30 miles away, interview process was insane (monitored IQ test??!?!) and I have thrived – have been promoted twice (not counting temp to perm) since I was hired here. Good luck to you and I hope it works out!!

    9. Nesprin*

      “Hey Company #1, I’ve been enjoying getting to know you and your work, and I’m excited about position #1. I wanted to let you know that I’ve received a competing offer and need to respond within (notice period -1 day). I’m extremely interested in working for you because of X, Y, and Z- could you please let me know if there’s any way to accelerate the interview process?”

    10. MsVanS*

      Just tell them. If they’re seriously considering you, Job #1 will be happy to have this information. I’d just say something like, “I’m calling/ writing to let you know that I have received another job offer. My strong preference is to work for you, and I wanted to let you know that I need to let the other employer know by end of the day Monday (ideally earlier).” It may be too quick a turnaround for them to get a job offer together, but if they’re serious about you, better for them to know now and run your references or make an offer contingent on reference check than miss out altogether! (In the future though, you’d ideally ask for more than 1 business day from less-than-ideal employer when you get an offer.)

    11. Hyaline*

      Yes to what everyone is saying here! The only complicating factor I see is the timeframe–it’s Friday and you only have until Monday, so definitely call Job #1 like three hours ago :D so you can hopefully get a response soon! But if you can’t get a firm handle on Job #1…I think you’re stuck with the decision of a) just take Job #2 knowing you will walk if Job #1 comes through (the “fell in my lap” line works here) b) decline Job #2 (especially if you didn’t really love it anyway) and hold out for Job #1 or c) ask for some more time (if that seems warranted from what #1 said about their timeline) but be aware that it may very well be read as “I have other irons in the fire” and be ok with that.

  12. Applesauced*

    My company asks people going on parental leave to send an email about a month in advance to clients/consultants to make them aware of the leave, coverage, and any other details.

    Right now, I have “I am (fill in the blank) and will be on parental leave from X to Y, not be monitoring email.” Then who will be covering and other details.

    For that (fill in the blank) part, I am overthinking the wording, do I say:
    – “I’m pregnant”
    – “I’m expecting (a baby)”
    – “I’m expanding my family”
    – “to welcome a new member of my family”

    Are there any other options I haven’t (over)thought of?

    If it changes anything, 80-90% of the people getting this notice already know I’m pregnant

      1. Lady Danbury*

        Absolutely this, or even just “I will be out on leave from X to Y.” Anything else is none of their business, though you’re free to share more if you want to.

    2. Antilles*

      Any of those are perfectly acceptable. No need to keep overthinking it, you can just pick one of those and go right ahead to send that email. Nobody is going to scrutinize the exact working of that part, they’re just going to be happy for you, then pay attention to the part about who’s covering projects / who to contact / etc.
      Congratulations on your soon-to-be arrival!

    3. Jane Bingley*

      I think you can actually omit it altogether and just say “I will be on parental leave” if that would be more comfortable!

    5. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I would just say “I will be on parental leave from X to Y…” etc. You said most people know the details, and those that don’t really don’t need to know anything personal about it. In fact, I might suggest dropping the word “parental”, except that it gives a little insight into your availability and could convince people who might bother you on vacation not to do so.

    6. College Career Counselor*

      How about just “I will be on parental leave from X to Y, not to be monitoring email”? You’re going to be on parental leave and don’t need to get into exactly HOW your family status is changing.

    7. Who knows*

      What about just “I will be on parental leave from X to Y”? I don’t think you need to specify that you are on parental leave because you are having a baby, seems obvious enough.

    9. Rex Libris*

      Personally I’d skip the specifics and just say “I will be out on leave from X to Y and not monitoring email. Please direct any urgent matters to person Z (if appropriate.)”

    10. Eeyore's Missing Tale*

      I’d go with “I’ll be out on parental leave from X to Y.” Short, sweet, and to the point.

      When I did my email, I added “For questions about llama grooming, please email Wakeen at X., etc” Is that something your organization does normally too?

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Only in that “leave” by itself makes me think bad news, and “parental leave” makes me think good news!

        OP, if you’re having trouble getting the sentence started, just something like, “I’m writing to let you know that I’ll be on parental leave blah blah.”

    13. Christmas Carol*

      I would add a qualifier to the in advance e-mail: I anticipate being on parental leave………My brother and his wife had everything planned out and set up, including the time he scheduled to have his solo business closed down, until an emergency c-section caused Amelia to arrive almost 2 months early, and up ended all their carefuly crafted plans.

    14. greytladyOH*

      No need to explain a thing.

      ** Please note I will be on parental leave from X to Y without access to email. **

  13. Eeyore's Missing Tale*

    How do you deal with burnout when you can’t leave your job? We’ve had a lot of turn over and a few bad hires. I can tell my department head wants to keep me (surprise, I’m in academia) and I just got a good-for-academia raise. I still like the parts of my job that are mine, but doing my job, hiring for 3 positions, and trying to carry an office by myself is really hurting me. Work from home is not allowed. I know there’s a light at the end of the tunnel to, but how to do I manage my burnout until we get more people back in?

    I have considered leaving, but I have really good benefits and I know my office will give me flexibility when my kids are sick (1 with celiac disease and 1 with asthma). And when I’m’ not carrying the whole office, I like my job.

    1. MsM*

      How many of the things that aren’t your job genuinely need to be your job until you get other people in to do the work? Can you at least create a priority list and take that to the head to set expectations in terms of how much you can actually get done in a reasonable workweek and what may need to take a backseat?

    2. WellRed*

      You already know the answer. You can’t possibly do it at and you can’t care about the work than your employer. Prioritization is your friend, let the balls drop where they may. They value you and want to keep you; you have more power here than you realize. Also, take time off, even just a day here or there.

    3. NaoNao*

      Drop the balls that can be dropped (glass vs. rubber theory)–why are you carrying the office? Is there a direct, clear and very serious blowback if you…stop “carrying the office?”

      Captain Awkward has a great column “how to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed” that might have some tips

      Read the book “Nice girls don’t get the corner office” if you’re a woman–there’s some stuff in there about how women unintentionally torpedo or hobble their careers by being “worker ants–always busy, busy, busy working away” but fail to take on high-profile projects, and by believing that quality of work or amount of work alone is what gets promotions, raises, and kudos.

      Focus on the stuff that your supervisor/head cares about, the high profile stuff, the stuff they ask about, and if you’re able, drop the “worker ant” must be the best performing “A student” outlook.

      Max out the perks at work. If you’re not maxing your 401k or other matched benefits, like some health plans offer basically cash if you do checkups, max those. If you’re on a nice campus, start using the coffee shop, gym, and other amenities.

      Start working a “shift” 8.30 to 4.30 or whatever. No more massive overtime, start prioritizing

      Keep a list of work product and accomplishments

    4. Higher Ed Expat*

      Oh man, this was me in 2021-2022. I worked in admissions and was the de facto head of my department while we were trying to hire for both that position AND the position above me while also managing being short-staffed (we went from a team of about 12 to 6), daily changes to university Covid regulations, daily changes to national guidelines, daily changes to secondary schools’ policies…it was a mess.

      It went against all my instincts, but I had to drop the ball. I focused on the absolute bare-minimum of what needed to get done. My mantra was “What are they gonna do, fire me?” because I knew they wouldn’t — sounds like you’re in that position too. Solidarity and I hope things get better for you soon!!

      1. Leftrightsideways*

        This is me currently and it’s a struggle. Most of my colleagues quit and I went from a regulars workload to deadline driven work that I absolutely despise. It makes it tough that for many of these projects I am relying on professors to submit materials to me to send over to sponsors and of course they’re always late. My university’s policy has tried to discouraged late submissions but somehow these professors are always getting “one-time” exemptions. Ugh! I took a week vacation to try and figure out how to deal with the massive burnout and I already feel a bit better. It’s not a solution but I encourage you to take a few days off to regroup!

  14. MissMaple*

    I’m an engineer and I’m moving to a new project after only a short stint on the current one (same company). I didn’t ask for the new role, but it’s a great opportunity that my boss suggested me for when they had an unexpected retirement, so I decided to go for it. I was just getting to have good relationships with this team and I don’t want to burn these bridges because everyone here sticks around forever and I’m sure I’ll end up working with them again. Any suggestions for how best to work the transition when you’ve only recently started digging into a role? (I really did think about staying, but the new project has guaranteed funding and a set launch date whereas where I am right now has been swirling for two years and might be in the same spot when the other project is done).

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’ve lived this a lot. Most of your peers understand that people get grabbed and moved from project to project because of business needs, the whims of a boss, etc.
      Just ask your current lead what they need from you for wrap-up, and be generous with answering questions from whoever backfills you.

  15. Teapots4u*

    I run a teapot factory. We have leads for different teapot-producing areas; some lead small groups and some are individual contributors. Generally, if we have a meeting with a customer or an internal strategy meeting, all leads are invited. It has become clear that one of the newer hires does not have the same degree of professional maturity as the others. He performs fine at his skill and is overall a useful employee, but tends to be unpredictable in interacting with customers, vendors, etc. We have coached him many times, and I think he’s trying, but he seems to lack an internal filter or some professional skills. As a result, we can’t invite him to external-facing meetings. I don’t know how to explain diplomatically to other team leads who notice his absence why everyone gets to give the customer a presentation on their progress, but I always have to update the customer on this guy’s progress.

    1. Rex Libris*

      If that’s part of the job, then an inability to do it isn’t any better than an inability to perform any other aspect of the job. Personally, I’d spell out, with examples and a bullet pointed list exactly what behavior needs to change. I’d try to get the guy signed up for some soft skills networking/management/leadership training. Ultimately, I’d move on to a PIP if he continues to just not get it.

      As far as the other team leads, I wouldn’t mention it at all unless they do, and just give them a generic “X won’t be participating in client meetings for the time being, so I’ll be giving a brief summary of their progress.” The particular issue really isn’t their business.

      1. Tio*

        Yeah, I think you need to really evaluate if he can’t do part of the job if it’s really ok to leave him off. The “X can’t attend” thing will only go so far until they notice he’s never attending. You generally don’t want to semi-permanently excuse someone from a fairly standard duty everyone in their position is doing just because they’re not good at it. That means they’re literally not good at part of their job.

    2. Lady Danbury*

      Why do you need to explain it to the other team leads? In general, performance management should be a private process between management and employee.

      1. ArtK*

        If all of the leads are normally invited, excluding one is going to cause some comment and speculation. I think the OP wants to head that off without revealing performance management information.

        1. Teapots4u*

          Exactly, plus the employee in question does useful technical work and seems to be trying to do the right thing, so I certainly don’t want to publicly embarrass him. And the other leads do keep asking if he was left off the invitation by accident.

    3. NaoNao*

      Maybe the polite fiction of “X has some other priority work right now” (the priority work is developing professional polish!)

    4. strawberry lemonade*

      “Thanks for the catch, but he’s free from this meeting–he’s got some other things to handle, so I’ll be his customer face today.” The polite understanding that meetings are no fun gives him a bit of an out. You can phrase it more like “he GETS to miss the meeting” instead of “he has to miss the meeting.” You don’t need to hammer it super hard but it’s a way to say, yeah that’s on purpose.

    5. MsVanS*

      For me, it’s the missing clause. In Washington DC, it’s common that commercial leases have no “act of God” exceptions that release tenants from their obligation to pay rent if the whole building is torn down by a hurricane, tornado, etc.

  16. The Prettiest Curse*

    People who have to sign contracts at work – what’s the most unusual or illogical contract clause you’ve seen? My favourite clause was in an event contract at a conference centre. (Context: post-lockdown, event venues threw a whole load of weird no-refund scenarios into their contracts.)

    The clause said that, in the case of widespread societal breakdown, we wouldn’t get a refund if we cancelled our event. Fine, but if there actually IS widespread societal breakdown, your conference centre will be out of business, as will my employer, and I doubt that event refunds will be a top priority for either of us!

    1. Ashley*

      I love the clause where I agree to abide by all the upstream contract clauses but they won’t provide me a copy of said contract to know what I am agreeing to, and I am wierdo for asking for a copy of their contract terms.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        Yes! I (and thousands others) had to vote on whether to approve the new union contract… without being able to read said contract. And the response when I asked to see it was “no, we can’t share it right now because other unions are currently in negotiations.” What?!

    2. Rex Libris*

      I ran across a clause once that basically said that by signing the contract, we gave the company the right to use our name, logo, and any and all written material they could get their hands on, however they saw fit, to promote their own company, in perpetuity.

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        Yes, I had to sign that one to get into an “all-hands” meeting. The only explanation I got was that it referred to what happened at the meeting, not outside of it. It was pre-covid if I remember and we had video links to see the audience at several sites.

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      If there’s a widespread societal breakdown, how would they even know you wanted to cancel your event?

      And do they define “widespread” or “breakdown”?

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        I have no idea how they were defining either of those terms, it was so weird! I think in that scenario, they would just do what many venues did during early 2020 and cancel all of their events. (This contract did at least define stuff in their Covid/infectious diseases clauses.)

        Event contracts often have natural disaster/act of God clauses too, but they never define what they consider to be an act of God either. I’d love to see how well some of this language would hold up in court.

    4. peter b*

      I always wondered where the line got drawn in insurance policies between riots/civil commotion, which are generally covered, and revolts/revolutions, which are not. It never came up on any of the policies I worked with, and when studying for my exam they never gave distinguishing definitions as it such a fringe coverage anyway for the mainly home and auto customers we had.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Would a revolt/revolution imply the government being overthrown? I mean, I know revolutions can be unsuccessful (heck, I’m Irish; most of ours were) but perhaps they are thinking of successful ones

      2. AndersonDarling*

        Oddly enough, I did some fringe research and discovered that zombie attacks would be covered under the riot clause.
        Unfortunately, nuclear fallout is not covered, and there is no additional rider to cover it.

    5. Mutually supportive*

      my personal favourite is

      “Clause xx: Collaboration
      Not required”

      I KNOW it’s because it’s a template being filled in and I KNOW it means collaboration in a specific sense, but it makes me chuckle that it looks as if the contract requires you to not get along very well

  17. Justin*

    And it’s over.

    600 applications (all of which I read, though I’d chosen the interviews by the first 300 which came in the first week), 14 HR screens, 7 manager interviews (that’s me), 3 panel interviews, 1 candidate chosen, offered, accepted. 40 days from job post to hire. I am having (or, my wife is) a second child and I really wanted my new hire not to start while I was out so I was motivated to move as efficiently as possible. (I’ll only be out for a few weeks, the extended leave is after my wife’s leave ends.)

    She starts on the 30th. And she’s gonna be great!

    I think I learned a lot from reading this site for 8 years and this is my most consequential hire since I started reading. So I’m glad it is going to really work out, most likely.

    3. ArlynPage*

      Kudos on reading all of those applications; that must have taken forever, but as an applicant who is doubting whether anyone can hear her out there, it makes it feel less hopeless to craft a beautiful cover letter when there are already hundreds of applicants!

      And congrats on the baby–my husband and I also did the staggered leave thing and it was awesome.

      1. Justin*

        I also reached out to a couple of the later applicants to tell them we were hiring someone but can’t close the job until she accepts.

        I hate job searches and did my best to humanize it.

        To be clear, I wasn’t reading them THAT carefully, but I looked at all of them.

  18. Essentially Cheesy*

    How do I decline team building invites gracefully? Are these events non negotiable?

    I seriously would not enjoy axe throwing and the purpose of the event would be ruined for me.

      1. Ashley*

        Schedule conflicts are the worse. For hardcore places / events sometimes making plans you can discuss (birthday party, special dinner) can help. If you get wind of dates that are being considered I have been known to preemptively suggest those dates to friends as the best time for me when scheduling things. You shouldn’t need a hard story, but sometimes it helps.

    2. Solstice*

      Claim a prior commitment/physical condition that makes axe throwing difficult and make a point of going to the next one, perhaps helping to plan something that you’d be more into. If you’re the person who skips every team building invite, though, that’s going to look stand-offish.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Trying to get out it because of a physical condition would just lead enthusiastic team-builders to say you can just come and hang out (most people are just hanging out most of the time at ax-throwing, anyway).

    3. Spreadsheet Queen*

      Prior commitment (unless these are scheduled during your workday, and then that is more difficult).

      I’m usually open to doing stuff with my team. But I would opt out of axe throwing. And I would do it by asking “So, if I do this, who is taking me to the ER? Because y’all know me, and that is exactly what will end up happening if I do this. So, yeah, no. Have fun on that one without me.”

    4. Hiring Manager (they/them)*

      Are these events non-negotiable? – depends on if you’re getting paid and if they’re scheduled during work hours.

      If there’s a little party in the afternoon to celebrate someone’s tenure and it’s on work time, it will likely be seen as rude to just not show up at all.

      If it’s an unpaid gathering outside of work time to get drinks, it’s not weird that you have a standing book club meeting, etc. etc.

      All of this with the caveat that social and team building activities are often very important for workplace networking. People naturally gravitate towards other people that they know, and people that are enjoyable to be around. These sorts of “soft skills” can be what managers use to delineate between two equally skilled candidates when needing to pick someone to lead a project, get promoted, etc. etc.

    5. DrSalty*

      Whether or not they’re non negotiable totally varies by workplace. Could you discreetly ask some peers if they’re mandatory?

    7. Nancy*

      Just say you are busy during that time. I’ve declined events because I had already had other plans. It happens.

      Or meet up but don’t axe throw.

    9. Orange Line Avenger*

      I recently organized a similar event for a group of coworkers. Out of our team of 14, 3 declined. Two just said “sounds fun, but I’ll sit this one out!” without claiming a scheduling conflict or making any excuses, but the third came up with a very elaborate (and transparently false) story about needing to stay behind to work on a project that didn’t exist. It was so odd that “weirdly lying about not being able to go to the arcade” is now the first thing I think of when I think of that coworker.

      If you don’t want to go, just decline the invite. You don’t need to lie or come up with a justification or a fake conflict (and if your excuse is found out, it’ll reflect poorly on you). Unless you work at a work-hard-play-hard startup or some other high pressure environment, you can just say “no thanks” and no one will think much of it.

    10. Czech Mate*

      If the events are happening during normal working hours, then I’d say they’re non negotiable.

      My office started doing a Friday happy hour during the summers–as in, office officially closes at 3, so from 2-3 we have a happy hour. One of my coworkers took that as “Great! No one cares if any work gets done then, so I’ll just leave!” It did not go over well.

    11. NoIceCavesHere*

      It depends on the group size. If it’s a large event, they would rarely notice if you simply RSVP no on the invite and don’t go. If it’s a small group I work with closely, I would privately tell the organizer that I’m not going because that type of event wasn’t my speed but I would love to go if it was X, Y, or Z type of event. That feedback that this type of event isn’t enjoyed by everyone can be very useful to event organizers. That’s why my group stopped doing mini golf, go karts, and other athletic and/or physical activities that were exclusionary to people with physical limitations which the gung-ho organizers weren’t thinking about (oh, getting hit by a go kart at full speed isn’t great for a person with a bad back, good point!). The organizers are (in my experience) also very bad at thinking of options for events, so providing them info on alternatives can be very successful. I’ve gotten multiple ice cream parties this way.

    12. The Tinman*

      My boss actually said attending company gatherings outside of work hours showed our connection to the company, during a merit raise meeting. I am at my desk for 50 hours a week that is enough connection for me. I am skipping the branch vs branch softball gathering tomorrow and the Top Golf event next week. I told them I had family event tomorrow and I am opening the day after Top Golf and it is an hour and half drive home for me.

    13. TheBunny*

      So… you occasionally attend. Go to the ones that are least offensive and build up the “of sorry I’m out of town that weekend” capital that allows you to get out of the really awful ones.

      Personally I’d probably go to the axe throwing just because it sounds like a truly terrible activity for an office anything. But that would allow me to skip the hiking trip with less side eye.

  19. Rosie*

    Any recommendations for books you’ve read that helped you at work or in your career somehow?

    My company gives each employee a certain amount of money to spend each year on anything that will help them with their job/career. You can use it to pay for things like classes, subscriptions, and books. They have a list of recommended books on various topics that are job specific (like accounting and management) and others that are more general (communication and emotional intelligence).

    So I was wondering if there’s any books that you guys have read that you found helpful for work? (Aside from the Ask A Manager book. :) )

    1. FashionablyEvil*

      I’ve found several books from the Harvard Project on Negotiation to be pretty helpful over the years including Difficult Conversations, Thanks for the Feedback, and Getting to Yes. All full of of solid, practical advice.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      I think this is one I liked: The Leadership Challenge (Kouzes and Posner). If I’m remembering correctly, this is the book that outlines the three things people want in a leader: knowledge of/competence in the job (in other words, you have to know what the hell you’re doing/talking about), honesty (to the limits possible–can’t tell everyone everything all the time), and authenticity (are you who you say you are)? The WORST leaders I’ve ever encountered failed badly in one or more of these areas.

      I’m also a huge fan of Bob Sutton’s “The No Asshole Rule” and recommend it every chance I get. Talks about the costs (time, labor, productivity, hiring, sickness, etc.) caused by toxic people in the workplace who poison everyone and everything around them but who are (often inexplicably) allowed to stay. Keep those people off your team, and the team will follow you forever.

    4. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      No Hard Feelings – Emotions at Work and how they help us succeed by Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy. There’s something in there for everyone and the comics are great!

    5. Charlotte Lucas*

      Years ago, I read Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office. I don’t actually want the corner office, but it did have some nice tools that helped me with some craziness in my work life at the time.

      I still use her advice to tell, not ask about time off, and to imagine a force field around myself when getting negative emotions directed at me.

      1. JustaTech*

        I read the new edition (Nice Girls Still Don’t Get the Corner Office) and I would say that the meat of the book was good, but some of the more “garnish” parts were annoying.
        For example, if you want to be taken seriously, you must always and only go by your full name. Catherine, not Kate kind of thing.
        Also, the older you are, the shorter your hair must be. Lol nope to that!

        But a lot of the other stuff is reasonable and actionable.

    6. Strive to Excel*

      “7 Habits of Highly Successful People” is a classic for good reason.

      Getting to Yes and Getting Past No (the sequel) are good solid explanations of negotiations that many, many people have read.

      Accounting: depends on what branch of accounting you’re in, to a certain extent. Do you want a book on how to do accounting better? Or one on how to explain and manage accountants? Or how to explain accounting to managers?

      That said I’d almost recommend Bad Blood. It’s the story of the Theranos debacle, and a really good breakdown of What Not To Do on all levels.

      But for accounting I’d really recommend instead looking into getting a subscription to LinkedIn Learning. There’s a *lot* of content on there on all of the above topics, from the highly technical to the broader theory.

      2. JustaTech*

        I read Getting Past No for grad school (excellent!) and I read Bad Blood at work because I’m in a tangential industry and my boss knew one of the people who really suffered in that whole disaster, so it was almost work related for us.

    7. the Viking Diva*

      The Art of Gathering, by Priya Parker. If you run meetings, retreats, workshops, conferences, the office holiday party, anything that brings people together for a purpose…

    8. Nesprin*

      #1 by a mile: The visual display of quantitative information (seriously, a phenomenal book about … making graphs). The author, Tufte, gives courses on communicating data which I found remarkably useful.

      #2 The gentle art of verbal self defense

      #3 Clifton had a course on project management in a day, which I found pretty valuable.

    10. Rachel Greene*

      Depending on what the amount allocated, look into Coursera – a collection of eCourses on a number of subjects. There is a monthly, cancel anytime plan or an annual plan.

    13. Chauncy Gardener*

      I really liked the two One Minute Manager books as well as Who Moved My Cheese.
      Seconding Getting to Yes as well.

    14. NoIceCavesHere*

      Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. Knowing how people’s brains work really helps you identify issues in ways people think and how to work around them. Like, I hear the Planning Fallacy at my office all the time. All the time.

    15. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      A couple which hit the spot for me:
      Nancy Kline – Time to Think (&/or its sequel)
      Charlie Gilkey – Start Finishing

      1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        Oh and I recently read How Big Things Get Done, by Bent Flyvbjerg & Dan Gardner, and that was very good too :-)

  20. Fluffy Waffles*

    What’s the best way to say you are leaving a current job due to poor management?

    Examples of poor management include not giving feedback, not responding to Teams messages, canceling direct reports planned vacations, not believing employees are sick when they take sick time and harassing them about it, etc.

    1. Rex Libris*

      “I’m looking for a better fit with the corporate culture.” If asked to elaborate “I found there were often conflicting or ambiguous directives which limited my ability to plan and prioritize, and therefore my overall effectiveness.”

    2. Michelle Smith*

      I am looking for an opportunity with a management structure and culture that more closely aligns with my values. In particular, I value a management structure that includes regular constructive feedback and availability to staff and a general office culture that supports good work/life balance and encourages people to take time off for personal vacations and recovery from illnesses. How does management approach these issues here at Company A?

    3. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      I’d focus on the difficulty getting leave approved, for two reasons:
      1. It’ll help you vet the new company’s feelings about leave. Any hiring manager that thinks it’s unreasonable for you to leave a job because your PTO is revoked/not approved/discouraged is likely to also give you a hard time about PTO. This is just so clearly unreasonable that a hiring manager in a positive culture should instantly get it.
      2. The other examples, and broader framings of management culture, are tricky to interpret as a hiring manager. I don’t have enough context from an interview to assess your interpretation of your current management culture – but those examples don’t strike me as straightforward “that’s outrageous and anyone would be justified in leaving over that.” They generate thoughts for me like “I need some examples to understand what you mean,” and “I wonder what their manager would have to say about that,” and “what did you do to work around that issue?” Of course you have every right to decide those things are worth leaving a job over — and maybe you want to vet for companies that see those concerns as reasonable. And there are ways you could elaborate on them that would be 100% convincing. I just don’t think they’re as straightforwardly egregious as the PTO examples, so it’s a question of whether you want to prompt those types of questions or not.

      1. Crencestre*

        Mmm…I’m not so sure I’d lead with questions about getting leave approved. While any reasonable interviewer is well aware that even the most devoted employee will not be spending 24/7 on the job, they might still be taken aback by the idea that “This person hasn’t even been hired and they’re already wondering about how to get time off?! Will we be able to count on them to put in extra effort – or even a full day’s work! – if they’re already scheming about how NOT to be on the job? Next applicant, please!”

        Remember, the interviewer does NOT know you and can only judge you by how you come across at the interview and by your resume (but all resumes are written to make the applicant look like the greatest thing since sliced bread, right?) I’d stick to the idea of cultural fit and not suggest that taking time off is your first priority…or even your second or third.

        1. allathian*

          Sounds like you have an issue with people taking time off. But PTO is a part of your compensation as an employee and unlimited PTO is useless if the company culture is such that people can’t take any leave.

          Cultural expectations around PTO use should be a part of the discussion, just like salary and other benefits, and company culture in general.

          I wouldn’t necessarily lead with the PTO question, but work/life balance is far more important to me personally than salary, as long as it’s a living wage.

    4. Kitten*

      Quickly pivot about what you like about this new opportunity. As much as possible I would steer clear of speaking negatively about your current job. You don’t need to stick to the glorious future

  21. Too Open?*

    I’m currently job searching and sharing my resume with my network. However, due to leaving a DV relationship, my incredibly unique name is now inundated with written and badly photoshopped revenge porn. I’m working with the authorities and a legal team at this time. Due to this insanity, I do let folks know about the situation so nobody gets the bomb on their own. Am I sharing too much or just enough? While I deeply appreciate the sympathy and support, all I’m trying to do is prevent whiplash if anyone is unfortunate enough to look me up at this time.

    1. Jane Bingley*

      I think you’re taking the right approach! In your shoes, I’d probably use phrasing like “I just wanted to give you a heads up that you might find some unexpected and inaccurate results if you’re searching for me online. I’m working on getting them removed, but it’s a work in progress.”

    2. No Tribble At All*

      Can you go by a middle name/initial on your resume? Instead of Tangerina Warbleworth, T. Celestina Warbleworth? That might throw off the cursory searches.

      1. jasmine*

        I was thinking this as well. Maybe a nickname. And then during interviews, say “I actually go by X, but if you search that name online…” and then use the script suggested above

        So sorry you’re having to go through this, Too Open

        1. Roland*

          That was my thinking as well. When you get to the point of offers and background checks, hopefully they already think highly of you and it won’t be as big of a deal.

          And if you don’t have a middle name, I think you’re totally fine to make up a nickname.

          1. Too Open?*

            I can try a nickname of my middle name but honestly, not even sure I can answer to it. I’ll sleep on it before I start swapping out. I really like my first name but there is no professional / nice sounding nickname that would go along.

    3. Jane Bingley*

      Also – this is something managers don’t talk about for obvious privacy reasons, but you might be surprised how often DV situations come up at work. I’ve only been in a managerial situation for about 8 years and I’ve had multiple employees who’ve disclosed that they’re DV survivors and dealing with fallout that could impact them a work. I do think I get more disclosure because I’m a woman (and all those who’ve disclosed to me have been women as well), but also it’s just shockingly common and as a DV survivor myself, I’m extremely sympathetic and not at all judgmental of either being a survivor or the nonsense that abusers try to pull to make their victims’ lives miserable.

      It’s the kind of thing where I suspect that each person who’s disclosed to me might think they’re the only one, because of course I would never say anything like “oh yeah, so-and-so went through the same thing a few years ago.” But if you’re in a situation of having to disclose, it might be reassuring to know you’re likely not the first/only. Unfortunately, it’s still all too common.

      1. Too Open?*

        It’s very disappointing that this is more common than ever. Thank you for the reassurances. I personally find power in the statement that I left a DV relationship and I am handling the fallout, but I very much understand that the admission can leave a couple of people off-put.

    4. TheBunny*

      Can you put a nickname or shortened name on your resume?

      Even if it’s not the name you go by, it will allow you to have that conversation only with those who want to interview you…and then I think you tell them in a matter of fact way.

      I’m sorry you are dealing with this and sending positive thoughts your direction.

  22. chief cat herder*

    Hoping for some help with an interpersonal problem among my direct reports. There was some minor drama over who would handle work assignment, but in retrospect I’m not surprised that there was a tense moment between these two employees. They are both very professional and generally good colleagues, but I think Andy is nearing BEC mode with Bob (picture someone who likes to chat about their personal life and another who prefers to keep that more private).. I’m confident I can address the work problem component but I see a secondary issue that may be just beginning. Staff drama is a newer management issue for me.

    My question is, what are the appropriate and inappropriate ways to address bigger personality issues that create work tension? As a manager, what is okay to address and what should I leave my nose out of? How do I draw a line about professional behavior and act as a referee without getting stuck in drama myself or appear to be taking sides? How do you address the behaviour of a naturally extroverted person without skewing into uncomfortable “tone yourself down” territory?

    1. Name (Required)*

      Do you have an HR department that can guide you on how to handle it? I’ve worked places where the manager would handle the work assignment issue and HR would handle the rest of the situation.

    2. WorkerDrone*

      I think this specific question needs a lot more context, but in general, I tend to have a “basic expectation behavior” guideline that fits office culture.

      So for example, in a “normal” office job, basic expectations would be being polite, responsive to work-related conversations and requests, and generally a good citizen of the office (not leaving huge messes in the breakroom, etc).

      If Andy is fulfilling the basic expectation behavior, then there is nothing for you to address with Andy.

      If Bob is pushing for more than basic expectation behavior (trying to force personal conversations, getting upset Andy won’t have non-work related conversations) then Bob is the problem. If that problem is creating tension in the office and affecting Andy’s work – even in an indirect way, such as making it harder to resolve work-related misunderstanding between them – then you have standing to address it.

      In that case, I’d just tell Bob to leave Andy alone outside work-related stuff.

      1. chief cat herder*

        Thank you for this. I’m internally going into therapist mode so bringing it back to “what is the behavior and is it workplace appropriate” is good framing.

        Basically my thought is, part of me understands Andy finding Bob annoying to the point where something small and work related led to a minor outburst from Andy. I will check in with Andy and make sure they’re okay and nothing bigger is going on, and clear up any confusion about the assignment while noting their reaction was a little outsized and they need to keep it in check.

        I have a harder time figuring out how to ask Bob to be less annoying when some of it is just his personality, but maybe I need to monitor his behavior a bit more closely to see if he needs reminding that not everyone is as chatty as he is and it’s important to watch for other people’s boundaries in a professional setting.

        1. Lady Danbury*

          I think you also need to separate how much of Bob’s chattiness is actually unprofessional versus just a personality clash, especially since you seem to be more of an Andy. Andy’s annoyance shouldn’t be the barometer for whether or not Bob is being unprofessional, any more than Bob should be able to determine how chatty Andy should be. Part of being a professional is being able to handle different personalities in the workplace, so they both may need more coaching on professional behavior.

            1. Lady Danbury*

              You’re welcome! I’m also an Andy, so I totally get it! Sometimes I have to remind myself that my role as a manager is not to create a bunch of Danbury clones, lol.

          2. Tio*

            This. Someone might be not someone’s cup of tea, but as Alison always says, part of being paid is being polite when no one is doing anything wrong. And I don’t think anyone’s doing anything wrong here. Do you really want to tell Bob he has to make less small talk with Andy because Andy can’t manage his irritation? If anything, I would talk to Andy about how to separate personal irritation and professional behavior

        2. Nesprin*

          You could ask Bob to give Andy some space and to spend more time on the work- if Bob is in Andy’s office every day and gentle hints haven’t worked, he may be blowing up due to lack of other ways to get his work done.

          If Andy is usually a reasonable person, his blowups at Bob may be the tip of the iceberg.

    3. HonorBox*

      I think you can address it by simply telling one that they need to focus on the work aspects of the relationship, and if the other isn’t as interested in sharing information about their private life, they have to be OK with that.

  23. Empress Ki*

    I am filling an online application for a Council job in the UK. They used to not accept CVs but now they do. Since the application already asks my employment history, I am not sure I should also attach my CV to my application. Candidates must fill the application (obviously) but the CV is optional. I don’t mind attaching my CV, but I don’t see the point. What would you do ?

    1. Jane Bingley*

      I would! Think of your CV as more of a marketing document than a work history. You’ve said where and when you worked at what jobs, but what did you accomplish there? What made you a great employee? Your CV should focus on that (in bullet point form).

    2. MsSolo (UK)*

      If you’ve got an up to date one, it won’t hurt to bung it on (unless its in pink sparkle font!), but the sifters will be focusing on the application form, and are likely to only look at the CV to check it doesn’t contradict the information in the form, or if there are any criteria you didn’t give good examples for on the form but might have done on the CV. It’s a bit of a kindness to people who aren’t used to working in the public sector and have flubbed the application form (a lot of public sector orgs are trying to get better about hiring the occasional ex-private sector worker!)

    3. Beth**

      I work in the public sector in the UK. Although we ask for CVs as part of the hiring process, recruiting managers don’t see them until the interview stage to reduce bias (because that way they can’t see the candidate’s name, university etc.). So all the person doing the shortlisting has to go on is the application form. I cut and paste from my CV to the form. People who write “see CV” on the form are out of luck, because the decision maker can’t.

  24. Grits McGee*

    Curious what people think about this- several years ago, I worked at a small natural history museum. Management was hiring my backfill, and there were 2 candidates. One would have been a local hire, which was seen as a huge plus as the community was very rural and isolated and the museum had a hard time keeping staff for even a full calendar year. However, during this application process the candidate apparently shared that they were a young Earth creationist, which was a problem because the museum’s specialty was fossils from the local area.

    Management ended up going with another candidate who had slightly fewer qualifications, but came from across the country and therefore was more of a flight risk. Was it discriminatory to have not hired the first candidate?

    (The question above about the employee who doesn’t want to drive jogged my memory about this- when candidate #2 showed up for work, it turned out they didn’t have a car. The town where the museum was based was *tiny*, and there were panicked discussions about trying to buy a car for this person’s use so that they could survive in this very, very rural area.)

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      A fossil museum is not discriminating by refusing to hire someone who doesn’t believe fossils exist.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Exactly. If I was hiring doctors, I wouldn’t hire one who was anti-vax. If I worked in a gluten free bakery, I wouldn’t hire someone who refused to believe celiac existed. You have to agree with basic fundamentals of reality to take certain jobs.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      No it’s not discriminatory. It’s a requirement of the job that the person accurately reflect the scientific background of the museum, and that they be able to converse with visitors pleasantly and uncontroversially.

      Would you hire somebody who thinks that Elvis is still alive to work at Graceland?

    3. Jane Bingley*

      The legal standard is that discrimination on religious grounds is permitted only if there is a bona fide work requirement. In this case, if your job is to explain fossils and you believe that fossils were planted in the ground by the devil to trick us into not believing in the Bible*, you are likely not meeting a bona fide work requirement to teach fossils and ancient history.

      *I wish I was making this up

        2. Rainy*

          I grew up in that cult. :/ Well, one of. I’m sure there are multiple cults who are into the whole “petrified forests are a Satanic prank” thing.

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Blimey, my jaw just dropped through the floor.
        Functioning adults without voices in their heads actually believe that codswallop? I’d like to think it’s all an elaborate joke they are having on you, so they meet up later and have a huge group snigger, but apparently not.

      3. Frieda*

        It’s been a minute (ok, 40 years) but when my older brother’s 6th grade science (“science”) teacher at the private Lutheran school we went to taught the class that so-called dinosaur bones were really mouse bones glued together my parents, a physician and former high school teacher, transferred us to public school with quickness.

        My brother went on to earn a degree in biology and mine are mostly in religion, make of that what you will. (I am not a fossil/evolution denier, of course.)

    4. Unkempt Flatware*

      People like candidate #1 are why there are books at the Grand Canyon’s gift shop, in the SCIENCE section, about how the Grand Canyon was created by God to allow Noah’s Ark into the Americas. They cannot have any job where real earth science is a basic foundation of the job. And I would argue this is even more important in very rural isolated places that often lack opportunity and exposure.

        1. Unkempt Flatware*

          I live next door. I go about 20 times a year and I check in each time and try to hide it but it shows back up each time.

    5. Hyaline*

      I think it depends. If she was going to go against the museum’s mission statements in any way, or expressed a desire to change the purpose or goals of the museum to meet hers, then no, not discriminatory. If she displayed an ignorance of necessary subject material, no, not discriminatory. Basically, if she gave answers that indicated she could not do the job, they were fine not to hire her. But I’ll go against the grain here and say merely being a young earth creationist does NOT actually indicate she couldn’t do the job. If she was willing to stick to the museum’s mission and not insert her own beliefs, it was no more ethically ok to eliminate her from the running than if she had been a meat eater applying to work at a vegan restaurant–as long as you can do the work and uphold the ethos, your beliefs not interfering, cool. If it was only assumed that she didn’t understand how fossils work, what established science says, etc they may have been making a biased assumption because actually…in order to argue their points, many young earth creationists actually do understand this stuff, probably even better than the average non-specialist museum professional. (And many are ignoramuses who think God planted dinosaur bones to trick us. But if she didn’t make those claims, yes, your managers assumed something about her that was discriminatory.)

      1. Sharon*

        I think it’s reasonable to think someone that brought up being a young earther at a job interview for a science museum has, at a minimum, poor judgment and an inability to read the audience – not a good look for the face of your museum. If you wanted to be exceptionally generous, you could’ve asked them whether they felt there was a conflict of interest or whether they felt they’d be able to provide information to visitors in line with the museum’s mission statement. Or ask them WHY they were interested in the position in light of this disclosure.

    6. Head Sheep Counter*

      I think it depends on the position. If its education and tours… well… they’d be challenged to do so. If its working in retail? That would be weird and possibly leave them open to a claim – eg does the job require discussing the fossils in a mission appropriate (scientifically accurate one hopes) or is it not related to that at all.

  25. Pay it Forward*

    I just helped rescue a coworker and need to tell someone.

    I’m part of a team that is leading 2-hour training sessions every Friday morning. Every couple of weeks, I train a group of about 20 people on a group of procedures, then the next week or 2, our software team trains the group on the corresponding software applications. Today, one of the software guys, Jaime, who was scheduled to lead the training, was having audio issues at the beginning of the call, so Ned stepped in and led the training for a few minutes. Finally, Jaime chimed in and said he was good to go, so he took over. But he was all over the place – coughing, taking deep breaths and long pauses, and his thoughts were scattered. I recognized immediately that he was fighting through a panic attack. I messaged Ned and told him to text Jaime to make an excuse to bow out so Ned could take over. Jaime immediately obliged and bowed out. Ned finished the training, and afterwards, I asked him to message Jaime and let him know not to worry about the training, just wanted to make sure he was OK.

    Guys…I’m almost in tears. I’ve fought anxiety and panic attacks for years, and when they hit at work when you’re presenting or with a group of people, it is absolute hell. I’m so glad that my years of suffering have given me the ability to recognize it and help someone else. And I’m so glad to work for a company where putting the individual first and caring for people is the norm. I love working in a safe environment and being able to offer safety to someone else.

    That’s all…just needed to tell someone.

  26. Toot Sweet*

    Should I ask for a larger raise in the next cycle? My boss was fired in October 2020, leaving me as a department of one. I had applied for her position immediately after her firing. For the next three years, I was strung along about whether/when it would be filled. During that time, I received the following increases in the usual spring cycle: 11%, 7.4%, and 3%. This year, I got a 4% increase. I’m still ~$12K short of the bottom of the range for my position according to O*Net, and I was informed that they’re not filling my old boss’s position, again, leaving me as a department of one in a company of ~4K employees.

    I’m willing to wait until the spring 2025 cycle, but should I advocate for a bigger increase?

    1. MsM*

      Yes, but I think it’s also (past) time to start asking yourself how long you’re willing to continue being strung along.

    2. Harlowe*

      You need to leave this company. They have no reason to give you more money when you’re shown that they can get the work out of you without it.

    3. Mairead*

      If you’re not already jobhunting, I’d suggest getting started with a quickness! Your company sucks and isn’t likely to change.

    5. Parenthesis Guy*

      It’s hard to say.

      When you say that you’re still $12k short of the bottom of your range for your position, do you mean the position that you had before Oct 2020 or do you mean your current position? If it’s the Oct 2020 one, then that’s a big problem. If it’s your current one, then that’s potentially less of one.

      It doesn’t seem like they’re planning on giving you your old boss’s position. The question you need to ask yourself is whether you’re doing everything that she did, or whether they’re taking things off your plate because they don’t think you can handle it. It also appears that your increases in 2021 and 2022 were designed to make up for the fact that you’re a department of one.

      I think it makes sense to do some research and see what your worth is. If you’re really making below market, then I think it makes sense to try and advocate for yourself. But I’m not sure how successful you’ll be. I think your better bet is to start looking elsewhere.

    6. The Unionizer Bunny*

      Your boss was female?

      Managers aren’t protected by the NLRA, so she wouldn’t have been able to compare her own salary to other managers’ – but you aren’t (a manager), so you can inquire with other workers in your position to find out what wages the company is paying for your kind of work. I sense an Equal Pay issue here, and if everyone (else) is being under-paid, I think they’ll all be interested to know. Then you can ask them about all getting together and collectively asking for a raise. (If it’s mostly female workers being underpaid compared to the men, then you ask only the women and underpaid men. A rising tide lifts all boats. Also, be aware of public pressure you can bring to bear if the company insists on under-paying by gender. I don’t think they’d be wise to sneer at a lawsuit (especially a class-action lawsuit if they’re underpaying lots of employees), but those can take years, and a loss of reputation can hit them in the money immediately.)

      Transparency: pass 1, comment 3/4

  27. cactus lady*

    Next week I have an interview with a company that has VERY mixed Glassdoor reviews. This is a first interview, with an external recruiter. It sounds like a cool job, but it would be a pay cut, and I am not desperate to leave my current situation. What are some questions I could ask to get a sense of what is going on?

    1. Michelle Smith*

      Are there common themes? If so, just ask about them. “In researching Company A, I came across multiple reviews from former employees about X issue. Are those an accurate reflection of the culture here?” I’d also ask about the reason for the opening (e.g., whether this is a new position or filling a preexisting one and what the turnover has looked like for this position in the past). I also wouldn’t just trust an external recruiter or even internal employees to be able to give me frank information about the issues. I’d reach out to a former employee or two on my own (locatable using LinkedIn) and do an informational interview to probe more candidly.

    2. Name (Required)*

      Since you’re not desperate for a new role, why not be straight forward and ask about the negative comments on Glassdoor? I always try to ask about culture but generally don’t get helpful information.

    3. Ms. Yvonne*

      I just ran this through my buddy ChatGPT, who i find very helpful with stuff like this (largely of the “I want to discuss something awkward – make me come off well in that” variety): “pretend i am going to a job interview and the company has mixed reviews online. could you generate some questions that probe that issue but that do not make me sound like i am looking for a confrontation?”
      ChatGPT said:
      Certainly! Here are some questions you can ask to address the mixed reviews in a way that is thoughtful and not confrontational:

      “I noticed some mixed reviews online about the company. Can you share how the organization is addressing any concerns raised by employees or clients?”

      “What steps has the company taken recently to improve employee satisfaction and overall work environment?”

      “Could you tell me more about the company’s approach to addressing feedback and making improvements?”

      “How does the company support employees in navigating challenges and ensuring a positive work culture?”

      “What recent changes or initiatives have been implemented to enhance team morale and job satisfaction?”

      “How does the company measure success and employee satisfaction, and how do they respond to areas needing improvement?”

    4. Hyaline*

      Yeah, I would look for themes and patterns and ask about that element of the work or culture–and you don’t necessarily have to reference bad reviews to do so. Like if the reviews said they seldom promote from within, ask about career trajectories within the org and how many of their upper people have moved up from lower tiers. If there’s a pattern of the company asking for ridiculous amounts of overtime or working 80 hour weeks, ask about that element of the culture. And you can press if you hear something that doesn’t jibe with what you’re reading (“That’s interesting–I had the impression that this was a company where working long hours was the norm?”) and if you get a “party line” that doesn’t match an overarching pattern in reviews and it’s not “well, the accounting department is like that, but we really don’t” or “Since our new CEO took over, the company culture has definitely changed”, well…that does tell you something, too.

    5. ExternalRecruiters*

      I would note that an external recruiter isn’t really in a position to provide any real information about the place you’ll actually be working. Most of the time they’ll just gave basic information obtained from the company. If you’re lucky they’ll have a job description and some basic company info. You can ask, but I wouldn’t expect to get any real answers unless/until the company itself decides to interview you.

      Good luck!

  28. Anon4This*

    So my office just had a sudden restructure that eliminated two positions in order to create two almost-identical positions. Conveniently, they were just at a point on the payscale where the people in the eliminated positions couldn’t be slotted in and had to be laid off. Those two people had personality conflicts with our director, and had also talked openly about cultural issues in our department, so the general consensus is that the restructure was invented to get rid of them.

    Obviously, everyone is really upset, and no one feels secure in their jobs right now. I’m up for a promotion that was, apparently, approved by the director and is just waiting for HR to sign off on it. This has been pending for about a month now. My grandboss recently told us all to schedule meetings with her if we have any questions, and I’m going to set up a time to talk to her about this and try to see if the promotion is going to happen. (My boss is out of the loop and has no issues with me going to GB about this.)

    Any suggestions on how to approach this meeting? GB really likes me, but I’m realizing that if director doesn’t, it’s possible that the promotion has already been blocked and no one’s going to tell me. I’m also concerned about my job security. I’ve already been job-hunting on the DL, but I love this organization and really want to stay. I’d love to be able to just ask her if there are more layoffs coming and if the director likes me or not so I know if I should bother trying to stick around, but I know she either doesn’t know or can’t tell me.

    1. MsM*

      “Are you aware of any concerns/issues surrounding my candidacy for the promotion? If so, anything I can do to address them?” You may just get a “no” with no further elaboration, but if she likes you, hopefully she’ll try to find a diplomatic way to signal there may be some stuff out of her control that’s going on.

    2. ferrina*

      Go in knowing that you may not get answers. Try to make it low stakes for GB and Boss; don’t show frustration.

      This is all CYA advice. My concern here is that if there is politics and drama going on, you don’t want to be mixed up in it. That layoff is sketchy af. I’ve found that when this stuff is going on, it’s best to be as non-threatening as possible. Come in wide-eyed and saying “gee, just wanted to make sure I didn’t miss anything! I totally know that it may not work out, and I have only good thoughts about my boss, grandboss and the company as a whole regardless of what the outcome is!”

      And in the meantime, get that resume dusted off and start applying elsewhere. Even if you don’t get laid off, this doesn’t seem like a good place to be. Start a quiet, low-key search, and give yourself time to be picky about the next place (being picky in a job search is such a luxury and makes all the difference!).

      1. Anon4This*

        That’s really great advice, thank you! I hate that I’m probably going to have to leave, because there’s a lot of stuff I really love about this organization.

    3. The Unionizer Bunny*

      So my office just had a sudden restructure that eliminated two positions in order to create two almost-identical positions. Conveniently, they were just at a point on the payscale where the people in the eliminated positions couldn’t be slotted in and had to be laid off. Those two people had personality conflicts with our director, and had also talked openly about cultural issues in our department, so the general consensus is that the restructure was invented to get rid of them.

      When they “talked openly”, was this “to an audience of at least one other employee”? Or was it just “entered a manager’s office to talk with them and everyone else could hear through the open door”?

      The former is concerted activity. (Their topic – “cultural issues in our department” – sounds like “working conditions” to me. Whether other employees wanted to have that conversation, at the time, is irrelevant to the law.) Do you have any way of contacting them outside of work to make sure they are aware that they can file charges with the NLRB to eventually be reinstated with backpay? Since you have a potential promotion on the line I would have a sit-down with you about strategy; have you done anything concerted yourself that may have created hesitancy in approving you for it? If not, they could plausibly claim there were other issues that arose with your promotion and it had nothing to do with retaliation for filing charges yourself. If you did, repeat that concerted activity instead of keeping your head low – they may be dangling the promotion with the hope of keeping you quiet long enough for the statute of limitations to expire. (Then they can fire you, too.) If you continue to engage in concerted activity and they still delay that promotion, don’t just quit looking for a better job – file charges about the pattern of retaliation for concerted activities. It’s harder for them to dismiss you as just a disgruntled employee when you’ve documented a history of engaging in concerted activities (especially if you can document how management responded with “animus” through disapproval or hostility!) and there’s a general consensus among other employees that management has made personnel decisions for the sole purpose of harming employees who engaged in concerted activities.

      Transparency: pass 1, comment 4/4

  29. chocolate muffins*

    Small joys at work thread! My husband and I hosted a departmental get-together at our house this week and had a lovely time with the folks who came. We now also have many delicious left-overs. What made you happy at work this week?

    1. cactus lady*

      Can you share more about what the get-together was like and what you planned? I have wanted to do this for my team but I have never been to one that wasn’t super awkward.

      1. chocolate muffins*

        He picked up some food from a local restaurant; we set it out on our porch and people could help themselves. The event was scheduled for a few hours, starting in the late afternoon and ending early-ish evening. Most people did not stay the whole time but dropped in for an hour or two, got some food, chatted with each other. We didn’t really plan anything – it was just food + music + people, so folks were chatting informally rather than doing organized activities.

        It didn’t feel awkward to me but this is for an academic department and academia is sometimes different from other industries. Happy to share more if there are specific things that would be helpful to know!

    2. moss, fourth of their name*

      I led on a call with a vendor expressing my team’s concerns with their software, and it was SO NICE to hear no pushback at all about it. They thanked us for our feedback, expressed they wanted to improve, and let us know when we could expect to see a few improvements already planned. I was so relieved afterward- I tend towards feelinh like my concerns are too small to be bothered with, but it was like night and day to be told that they understood, they’d heard some similar feedback from other customers, and they’d work to improve our experience.

    3. Lady Danbury*

      I finally finished reviewing a document that had been sitting on my next for over a month, the other side accepted my changes and we’re moving to signature. Such a great feeling!

    4. The Librarian*

      l work in an academic library. A student told me this week that partly because of my encouragement, she had decided to study something that was a bit of a stretch, and she was really happy with it. So was I, it felt great to help someone use their potential.

  30. Casey*

    Does anyone have experience with one of the employee gifting sites that they’d recommend? I know, I know everyone would most appreciate money, but that’s not an option and a gift is. I want to set a dollar limit (hopefully in the $200 range) and then let employees choose whatever gift they want, and I want a wide range of options. Any ideas?

    1. Educator*

      Can you get as close to money as possible by doing a gift card to a place that has something everyone will need in the next year, like Amazon or Target, or a local grocery store?

    2. Speak*

      For the past few years the company I work for has used a gift card site (GiftOGram) where the employees can choose from a large number of gift cards, including splitting the funds on multiple cards. I regularly choose from Amazon & Lowes but I know they have restaurant and grocery options as well as travel companies. This way someone who is boycotting a specific company doesn’t feel like they are disrespected if given a gift card to that place.

    3. Betty*

      I’m pretty sure your employees would have to pay income taxes on a gift worth $200 even if it’s not cash. Your company would also need to withhold the FICA taxes from their paychecks. A colleague once won a YETI cooler at a work event and was not happy to learn I’ve had to pay income taxes on it! Definitely check the limit first.

  31. L-squared*

    A couple months ago I had a really good couple of interviews with a company, but it turned out the salary was lower than I was looking for, so I backed out of the process. At the time, I had a few other irons in the fire, which I assumed one of them would work out. Well, they didn’t lol. So I’m still looking for a new job (not working currently). I’m not “desperate” just yet, but I do need to get something in the next couple of months.

    I recently saw that the job listing was reposted.

    I’m just wondering if it is a good idea to reach back out to them. I’m not saying I’d 100% take the job, as I’m still getting other interviews. But I would like to re-enter the interview process. Has anyone ever done this and has it worked? On the flip side, as a manager, would you be open to someone doing this?

    1. Hiring Mgr*

      I’ve done this as a manager – there have been a couple of occasions with a candidate where the timing wasn’t right for one reason or another, but we reconnected later when there was a new opening and I hired them.

    2. EngGirl*

      As a manager I’d definitely be cautious. If you were a really strong candidate or if something about the posting/salary info has changed I’d be open to it but if everything else is the same I’d be wary of bringing you back in because it would feel like a waste of time if I thought you weren’t going to take the job anyway.

      Now if you reached out and said something like “I just saw that the llama groomer was reposted recently, I’m still very interested in this role and I was wondering if anything had changed on your end at this time.” I might be more willing to talk to you. Maybe something has changed especially if I’m reposting the job.

    3. Parenthesis Guy*

      What’s the downside?

      If you’ve already been through the interviewing process, they’ll probably fast-track your application.

      I’ve heard of this happening more where there was someone who applied for a job and didn’t get it that time, but then another opening opened up and they got that.

  32. Nicki Name*

    Inspired by a question earlier this week: People in the US, what kind of benefits do you get to help you get your vote in on Election Day?

    I think I’ve mentioned before that I’m in Oregon, which got rid of all its polling places well before I entered the workforce, so there’s no need for any company around here to give people time off on the day. I did work for one company for a while that was headquartered out of state and had made Election Day a company holiday though.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I get the federal requirements in terms of allowed time off.

      Several years ago, an employee at Penzey’s told me they got a paid holiday, because the owner believes Election Day should be a federal holiday.

      1. Clisby*

        Even if Election Day were a federal holiday, that wouldn’t guarantee anyone but federal employees a paid day off.

    2. WomEngineer*

      They (large corporation) made an internal site with links to voting information, including open seats, when/how to register by state, and basics of elections and the US government.

      There is also “absent with permission” time for non-leisure appointments, religious holidays, etc. I haven’t confirmed but I assume this time could be used to vote.

    3. dulcinea47*

      I don’t think employers are required to offer anything at all, but everyplace I’ve worked (state & local govt) offers up to two hours of leave time, to be used only if your job otherwise prevents you from getting to the polls on election day, b/c you’re working a 12 hour shift or something like that. No one here works those hours so IDK who would use that time.

      I’ve done early voting or a mail in ballot every election for the past several years, it’s easier to do it when I want instead of having to show up at a specific place and date.

      1. Watry*

        I was interested, so I went to look it up, and it looks like 14 states plus DC don’t have any laws around voting leave, but the rest have at least something, ranging from “schedule them for the day so they can vote” to 2-3 paid hours. Some states don’t specify a penalty for violating this, though, and for most of them that do the penalties are low (one is only 50 dollars!)

        1. Roland*

          Fwiw, at least one of those (Washington) has mail-based voting (now with free postage) so there’s really no real need for any time off – might be a few others too, not sure.

    4. Alex*

      Technically we can get paid time off if we can make a case it is impossible for us to vote without it. Which is a bit much, since the polls are open for 13 hours, and most people don’t work for more than 8 hours. I’m not in a region that typically has those hours-long lines at voting places. In practice my department is very flexible with hours and no one would really notice or care if I snuck away for an hour.

      1. VotingNeeds*

        The bus to my polling location only runs from 10am-3pm. I used make sure I worked at home that day and take a long lunch. Back in the day I either needed time off or flexibility (I got flexibility at most employers). They have early voting now (it was introduced in 2018, I think) and it’s easier to get mail in ballots so it’s less of an issue which is good because they’ve since cut bus service to my polling place entirely.

        1. VotingNeeds*

          err, only ran. As noted it has since been cut entirely. Public transit in the US is awful, even in major cities.

    5. Antilles*

      Everywhere I’ve ever worked has had no specific “benefits” per se around voting, just some informal schedule flexibility. Show up late or leave work early to get your vote in, then just make up for the time elsewhere if needed.

    7. OrdinaryJoe*

      We get 2 hrs off without being ‘charged’ the time even though we all work standard office hours and have a lot of WFH flexibility. The general feeling seems to be that it’s a casual day and no meetings are typically scheduled.

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I don’t know if there’s an official policy for the whole 35,000 person org, but my team members are remote and have complete schedule flexibility, so they can start late, take a break or knock off early, as long as they hit their allotted number of hours by the end of the week.

    9. PropJoe*

      I’m honestly not sure what our official institutional policy is, as my boss is super flexible about things. “Oh, you need to bounce an hour early to make it to your polling place? You should leave an hour & a half early in case of traffic.”

      It helps that the county maintains a very large early voting location quite close to us, which helps the 60% or so who live in the county (work is close to the boundaries of a couple other counties, some of which have cheaper housing). Also my county has a thing where you can early vote at any precinct in the county you want, but on election day itself you have to use your assigned place, so anytime I use the nearby early voting place, I see lots of our parking permits in the parking lot.

      My dept is all salary staff however, so I’m not real sure how it would be handled for hourly staff that needed to leave early to vote.

    11. Mad Harry Crewe*

      That’s not entirely true that there are no polling places in Oregon! I live close to the Multnomah County Elections Office in Portland, and there are always long lines of people waiting to vote on big elections – I see them when I go to drop my ballot in the drop boxes (because I never get it in the mail in time). I assume it’s folks who didn’t get their ballots for one reason or another, or whose mail ballots were damaged/messed up.

    12. Hyaline*

      None, but since I teach university coursework, it’s not a problem–I go between/before/after classes. Just adding, having open polling places (as opposed to assigned polling location) is such a help to being able to vote easily.

    13. DrSalty*

      Leadership encourages us to step out to vote if we need to. But we already have the kind of flexible culture where people can go to drs appointments etc during the day if they need to without using PTO.

    14. spcepickle*

      I live in Washington State – And the biggest benefit to us is vote by mail. I would say pushing for that and early voting is the best thing you can do.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Me too! However, I distrust the USPS to the point that I’m going to walk our ballots up to a drop box. How did we get here?

    15. RussianInTexas*

      Just what my state declares:
      “Assuming that an employee has not already voted in early voting, the employee is entitled to take paid time off for voting on election days, unless the employee has at least two consecutive hours to vote outside of the voter’s working hours”
      The polls open 7am-7pm, and we have 2 weeks of early voting, so if you work 8-5, you don’t get any extra time off.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        Basically there is no actual company policy whatsoever, and given that most people work standard hours, it does not come up.
        I work from home and live really close to my voting precinct, so I just duck out for 20 minutes mid morning.

    17. School Person*

      Public school in Illinois (northwest Chicago suburbs), we get Election Day off. But as school ends at 2:45, I’ve never had trouble getting to polls. We are fortunate to live in an area where there are abundant, well-staffed and easily accessible polling places, which is how it should be everywhere.

    18. Karstmama*

      I’m a nurse. Not one thing. If I’m scheduled to work, I work 0645 to 1915, no way to vote. I’m so glad for early voting!!

  33. The BeaureBar*

    Found out this week I’m losing my job next month, and having really hard time coming to terms with it. I haven’t HAD to do any job hunting in almost 5 years, I took this one because it kind of fell into my lap, and I really thought the conditions were right that this could be my career. It took me a long time to find something this good and it feels like, so many jobs before this, stability and job enjoyment are being yanked away yet again.

    My gut is telling me to strike out on my own because I can’t trust any single company, but I have no income from my side business yet. So I’m toying with the idea of freelancing or taking on a part-time job to build the side business up, but it will probably take a long while to get to a livable wage again.

    Any advice or thoughts when going through a disheartening life upheaval, again?

    1. ferrina*

      I’m so sorry! It sounds like you are feeling sad and mad and betrayed, and that is totally normal and understandable! It’s going to take a while to trust again, and you may never trust as fully as you used to.

      Don’t start a freelance business just because you’re currently feeling betrayed. Running your own business takes a lot of work and drive. If freelancing is something you want to do because freelancing genuinely sounds enjoyable to you and like something that will give you spark, then yes.

      It’s like romantic relationships- getting dumped sucks. But don’t structure your next relationship based on how your ex dumped you. Think about what you really want, and pursue that. Of course, jobs have the extra complicating factor of “make money so you can pay rent and eat”. It’s okay to take a bleh job short-term to pay the bills while you get your freelancing up and running/keep applying to better jobs.

    2. M2*

      I personally would start looking and applying for roles this weekend. Do your side hustle on the side until you have enough emergency funds to fund it and yourself for 6-9 months minimum.

      It’s easier to get a job if you have a job so applying now might be a good thing to do. Use your network and ask people you know if there are any openings in their companies or if they heard of anything. Depending on how well you know then I would either say there are layoffs coming or state you’re looking for something different/ new/ focus on xyz.

      Good luck!

  34. Wild Robot*

    Assuming your work separates sick days and vacation days, is it reasonable to use sick time to get over jet lag?

    I think the inclination is to say “no.” But at the same time, that sluggishness and likely decrease in productivity is similar to how you’d feel on a sick day.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’d say if you can use it for medical appointments, one kind of preventative care, you can use it if you feel you might need time to recover from something. If it helps, think of it as letting yourself rest so that you don’t come down with something! Your immune system is lowered when you’re sleep-deprived.

    2. EngGirl*

      Generally I would say no if it’s from vacation yes if it’s from a work trip. If it’s something else (like if you had to go oversees for a family emergency) it’s a cautious yes.

      To me doing it after a vacation is the same energy as someone who stayed out too late/partied too hard on a work night and then calls in the next day because they’re hungover. It’s more about the fact that you chose to vacation somewhere where jet lag was a known factor, so any recovery you need should be factored in in advance.

      If it’s for a work trip that you were asked to go on, then take the time if you need it.

      1. Alex*

        I would agree with this. Getting over the jet lag from a vacation needs to be part of the time taken for vacation.

      2. ferrina*

        This is where I land. I agree with all of this, especially the difference between a work trip, a vacation and a family emergency.

        For me, it’s not the same as medical appointments because medical appointments are about increasing productivity in the long run (by catching/addressing health issues before they get bad/worse). If you schedule a hangover, it still doesn’t make it a good reason to miss work. I will make an exception if a) the jet lag wasn’t planned, i.e., you had an earlier flight but it got rebooked to later or b) the jet lag is hitting you in a weird and unusual way (95% of the time my jet lag is annoying but endurable, but a couple times I’ve gotten weirdly nauseous for a day).

      3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        I like the “work trip” test. If the travel is work related you should be able to find a way to make it work for your own needs on sleep, etc. But if someone flew back from their vacation and is too sleep deprived to function I’m inclined to say that’s on them for not flying back a day earlier or taking an extra vacation day. There’s wiggle room in there, but I did once see someone who was already in the boss’s bad books have a workplace mishap related to them being jet-lagged and it did not end well for the employee.

    4. Cordelia*

      It wouldn’t be acceptable where I work. Jet lag, or at least the possibility of it, is predictable and you would be expected to schedule in recovery time as part of your vacation. You might feel equally sluggish and unproductive if you’d chosen to stay up all night the night before playing video games, that wouldn’t make it ok to call in sick even though you feel sick.

    5. Bast*

      It wouldn’t go over well in my jobs; you would be expected to use either personal time or vacation to cover it (in the companies that did separate banks). Now, if you came back from vacation sick, that would be a different story, although you may get some side-eye. Quite a few co-workers have come back with Covid/the flu and then had to take additional time off.

    6. Eleanor*

      Do you really need to tell them that you’re jetlagged? You can say you’re not feeling well and leave it at that; the details are really not their business. Perhaps I’m going to be looked down on in this thread for suggesting lying to your employer, but really–it doesn’t matter. They are required to give you the sick days. You can and should use them when you feel sick, regardless of whether it’s an “acceptable” reason to “be sick”.

    7. Hyaline*

      If it’s vacation, I’d say no, you should have built that time into your time off. If it’s unplanned, like you DID build in that time but then had an unexpected flight delay, or traveled for a family emergency, then I’d still say it’s a little squishy, but I’d lean towards ok. This probably also depends on the company culture around PTO–like it might be more in the bucket of “personal day” or “use comp time” in some companies if they have those options and sick days really are for medical issues/contagious illness.

    8. Cat Lady, Esq.*

      Personally I think it’s okay if it’s unplanned. If you know you need a day after you get back from an international trip to recover from jet lag, then you should build that day into your vacation planning.

      But if you still feel ill or too disoriented to work on your expected day back, then you can and should call in sick.

      There are some workplaces that would look askance at a sick day coming right after a vacation, though, so you have to use your judgment.

      In my current workplace, which is very chill, I would just teams chat my boss and let her know and she’d wish me well, and it wouldn’t be an issue. But I worked at a toxic law firm on the past where the partner would have been horrified at such a thing and demand I come into the office in a full suit like a good minion. So, I think culture is going to be a big factor here too.

    9. Rainy*

      Yes. Jet lag is no different, in my mind, to “I was up all night with food poisoning, and while I’m not sick anymore because I’ve already vomited everything including my socks, I’m in no shape to work”. And I would 100% use sick time for recovering from, e.g., food poisoning or a migraine. Of course, I’m so sensitive to jet lag that any time change over four hours destroys me for a while. People who don’t experience jet lag would probably disagree.

      1. Cordelia*

        hmm, in my mind it’s more similar to “I was up all night drinking and while I’m not sick any more because I’ve already vomited everything, I’m in no shape to work”. Food poisoning can’t be predicted and planned for, jet lag and drinking sessions can. Different maybe if it was an unexpected emergency trip – when I lived a 10-hr transatlantic flight from my family, I once had to fly home for a funeral, and came back the evening before a return to work. I went to work but by the afternoon I felt so awful I had to go home sick, and that was fine. But for my planned visits home, I would factor in at least some recovery time before coming back to work. I would still have been struggling through the day at work and not as productive as usual, but I wouldn’t have taken sick time. But yes, jet lag is awful!

        1. Rainy*

          I get vaccine reactions, so I have to plan to be ill for 3 days after a vaccine. I plan part of that for over a weekend, but I take sick time for the Monday, even though it’s predicted and planned for. I don’t really see the difference between that and jet lag, personally. Jet lag isn’t a choice. *Travel* is a choice, but being prone to jet lag is a lot like being prone to acute mountain sickness or having vaccine reactions. I didn’t choose to have more extreme reactions to common activities than other people.

  35. Beth**

    Just pressed “send” on an application to cover my boss’s maternity leave for the next year. Wish me luck. There are probably going to be a lot of people applying but I am hopeful.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Good luck! If it gets anywhere, make sure you are very clear about what happens to your original role (will it be backfilled? or will you be doing both roles?), what happens at the end of the maternity, are you guaranteed your ‘normal’ job back, etc.

  36. Busy Middle Manager*

    Job hunting story for those who can commiserate. Interviewed for job in my small but not niche field, had the SQL skills they said they needed. 4 rounds. Went well.

    Then they came back with salary questions. Their salaries were firmly stuck in 2019.

    Disappointing but not the end of the world since I want a change anyways.

    Then they say they are thinking of hiring someone more junior and dropping the SQL and a few other requirements. Which makes no sense because the whole point of the position was that the manager is doing all the work that staff can’t do, they have too many juniors already.

    Now I see the job reposted on their website but based in India, where they have a satellite office. Which is also confusing because I got speeches from two people on the importance of face time and monthly in-person meetings and training. I guess that goes out the window when you can outsource! This part feels a bit politicized but I’m including it because it’s happening, but there is also some for everyone to comment on:-/. Why are we suppressing wages by outsourcing jobs dealing with specific laws and customers in the eastern US? On the other side, do they actually want RTO or not? Because you can’t give grandiose speeches on RTO then outsource jobs and tell people they’ll need to ocassionally work with India at odd hours.

    1. Eleanor*

      The incentive for any employer under capitalism is to reduce costs as much as they possibly can. Naturally if they can pay someone halfway across the world a pittance to do the same amount of work, and there are no regulations against it, they will jump at the chance. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine whether this is a moral or economic good.

  37. Katy Cat*

    What are y’alls thoughts on company awards for values? I personally hate them. I feel like it helps perpetuate a competitive environment (even without meaning to), and it makes people who go above and beyond feel like they aren’t doing enough. I know I feel that way. And usually it’s the people who work with upper management or work on the “right” project, while the people working on the day to day boring stuff don’t get the same visibility.

    Going on the gossipy side since we’re anonymous lol, I’ve also noticed it tends to be the people who aren’t great at their jobs, but are good as kissing the right behinds. Like we had our awards given this week, and one of the few recipients is someone who can’t do her job without the help of other people, but who very blatantly flirts with her boss (and he flirts back too).

    But I’d rather fly under the radar and just do my job than have to kiss up to get an award.

    1. ArtK*

      I don’t think the issue is the type of award but how they’re distributed. I’ve worked for companies that reward corporate values (I have a “Teamwork” trophy around here somewhere.) The problem with your employer is that they aren’t applying any real values to the way they give out the awards.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        This! Also, who is nominating people for the awards? Where I work, those awards are for peers. You actually can’t nominate your manager. And you don’t know who nominated whom. It’s actually very flattering to know your coworkers value you.

        But I have worked somewhere that it’s done poorly, and there’s a huge difference.

        1. Katy Cat*

          Not sure how people were nominated, but I think for sure *my* manager should have been nominated. But him (and I) were hired as change agents, and upper management doesn’t really listen to us and make our jobs more difficult. I also want to point out both my manager and the person who won both report to the same person, but while the person who won heavily flirts with him, my manager does not flirt with their boss.

        2. Reebee*

          I once had a grand-boss who told me and one of my co-workers to nominate someone for Employee of the Year, and guess who won.

          That one situation didn’t taint my overall view of workplace awards, and I’ve seen it done really well elsewhere (I’ve never won one myself), but, whenever the topic comes up, I can’t help but be reminded of grand-boss and her corruption (and was she ever corrupt in so many other ways!).

    2. ferrina*

      It depends on how good the people giving awards are. If the awards are based on quantifiable metrics it gets easier, but when awards are subjective, there needs to be checks and balances.

      I’ve had similar experience to you- the awards were based on whoever’s manager was willing to advocate for them. If you were terrible at your job but your manager liked you, you would be nominated. If you were amazing at your job but your manager never advocated for anything, you would never get an award.

    3. Alex*

      My former workplace gave out awards every year, and the whole process was complete BS. It was 100% a popularity contest and/or plagued with bias. I spent my first several years there kind of not in the “in” crowd, but then due to turnover and some other changes, I started to make friends and be more in the “in” crowd, and boom! I got an award.

      That said, I don’t think there is anything wrong with awards, just that in some cases, like you describe, the process results in people receiving them being picked with bias, and that is counterproductive to being motivating for the employees as a whole.

      1. Katy Cat*

        Oh 100%, it’s a total popularity contest, at my current company. At my last company, the awards system was a tad better. There were several different categories you could be nominated for, and peers could nominate you. You still had to work with the “right” people of course, but it felt less politic-y.

    4. GythaOgden*

      I’m biased because I just got one over the summer, but the person submitting it had to quantify why she was nominating me and how I’d demonstrated commitment (in my case). For me, it’s less about kissing up and more about actually doing my job as well as I can, including very prompt submission of important paperwork after the meeting I was minuting.

      Because of the nature of my job and the size of my org, I’m not too worried about subjectivity or cliquishness and it’s nice to have recognition that I’m of use to someone else.

      1. Katy Cat*

        Congrats! It sounds like your org is doing it right. My current company is small, and a “family/team/fun” environment is forced in my department. It’s very disorganized and not solution based.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Yup. I’m really pretty lucky in that regard. I really fell on my feet and am certainly in a good place :).

    5. Roland*

      I had a company with quarterly (?) value awards and I didn’t feel like it created any pressure to work harder. It just wasn’t ever on my mind at all. I’m sure there were politics around who got them but the company was so big that it was very easy to a have a quarter where I didn’t even know any of the winners, let alone have any opinions on the quality of their work.

  38. No Tribble At All*

    Something that irked me yesterday — our department head, Alan, referred to our new VP’s (Bob) upcoming paternity leave as first PTO, then vacation. Yes, our company provides paid paternity leave. At the first mention of PTO, I didn’t say anything but after Alan said “The first thing Bob is doing after getting promoted is going on vacation!” I interrupted and said “whoa, whoa, parental leave is not a vacation!” And Alan sheepishly chuckled and said “you’re right, he’s not going on vacation, but anyway,”

    I’m one of few women in the engineering department, I have a baby, I heard from work friends that Alan was making comments “Is Tribble back yet? She should be back, I miss having her in the office!” while I was on maternity leave. I corrected Alan in the moment, but is it worth mentioning to HR? I’d like someone to give Alan training along the lines of You Are Literally The Boss And Have to Think Before You Speak but I also don’t want that blowing back at me. Alan is notorious for valuing personal relationships (“let’s all turn on our cameras so we can see our smiling faces!”) so I don’t want to perturb him. I try very hard to go into the office regularly and to chat with him when I’m there to get enough face time in.

    1. MsM*

      Is Bob above Alan in the chain of command? If so, I might just give it a bit and see if Alan makes a similar slip around him and Bob offers a correction of his own; that might stick.

    2. ferrina*

      How good is your HR?
      If your HR has a good reputation, I’d reach out to them. I might caveat this with “I feel a little strange bringing this up, but it’s been bugging me and I wanted to let you know, since you’re the experts on this.”
      A good HR will pull Alan aside and say something like “It’s been brought to our attention….” and chat with him about the importance of parental leave not being PTO or cut short due to business pressure.

      If Alan’s generally a reasonable person and you have a strong relationship with him, you could also wait until the next incident and pull him aside and say “hey, I don’t know if you realize, but it’s coming across like you think parental leave is something similar to vacation or relaxation time. Obviously I know you and know that you don’t think that- I mean, who would think that caring for a newborn infant 24/7 is relaxing, haha- but I don’t want anyone else to get the wrong impression. So I thought I’d let you know so you can adjust.” He’ll mumble something, then you’ll change the subject or make a quick exit. The goal on this chat is to allow him to save face while also bringing the correction front and center- you put the emphasis on relationships and how the communication isn’t quite doing what it needs to, which is sounds like is something that he’d understand.

      That said, if neither of those options sound safe, you don’t need to do anything else! It sounds like you’ve been addressing it as it comes up, and that’s fine to do!

    3. WellRed*

      Leave it alone. You only have it third hand that he made comments about you and it doesn’t sound like they were negative. He apologized in the moment about the paternity leave.

    4. OrdinaryJoe*

      I’d leave it alone unless there are other issues. In my experience, people tend to use the term “vacation” for a general shorthand for being out of the office and not available to ‘jump on a quick call’ … sick, new baby, cruise, whatever.

    5. Sneaky Squirrel*

      You have a pattern of behaviors that indicate that Alan may not be oblivious to how he sounds or may not respect maternity/paternity leave the way he should, maybe both, but I don’t think you have anything actionable here.

      One perspective to throw out there – it’s not yours or your colleagues’ business what kind of leave Bob is taking. Bob may be forthcoming and sharing this with everyone that he’s taking paid parental leave, but that’s on him to share and not Alan. Alan may be simplifying all leave as PTO/vacation. If Bob has a concern with how Alan is referring to his leave, then Bob should escalate the issue.

      As for Alan making comments of “Is Tribble back yet? She should be back, I miss having her in the office”. I don’t find those questions to be directly harmful or disrespectful towards maternity leave. To me it sounds like he’s simply voicing that he misses a colleague. It doesn’t sound like he’s asked you to speed up your maternity leave or took any other action to imply that he didn’t want for you to take your full leave.

    6. FashionablyEvil*

      I’d leave it–your comment in the moment was great and unless there’s a bigger pattern, I think you probably made the point very effectively.

  39. Harlowe*

    Those of you in remote/office roles, it it common that everyone constantly schedules meetings for the same damned time? Why does everyone want to meet with me on Wednesdays at 10:00? I have a quadruple conflict every week, and I STILL get one-off requests for that time slot on top of that.

    1. ferrina*

      Yes, very common. My organization has shared calendars (Outlook), and that resolves most conflicts. For things that are all-staff/large events, we have one person that coordinates a central calendar (so two large events don’t get scheduled over each other).
      If you are running into it with external folks, consider using Calendly or some other app that lets them choose from open slots on your calendar.

    2. jasmine*

      In the first org I worked at it wasn’t, but in my current one, it is. We have core meeting hours that fit both east and west coast, but then everyone also seems to want to schedule meetings as early as possible!

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      Wednesday has somehow become Meeting Day for me, too! I just use Scheduling Assistant to suggest a different time if possible, or I tell the person inviting me that there’s a conflict. (Unfortunately, two workgroups I am on with equal priority are routinely in conflict for part of their meeting time. I prioritize the one that I am more vital to.)

    4. Mad Scientist*

      Relatedly, I have a coworker who seems to strongly prefer to have meetings in the late afternoon, and I’m struggling to get her to compromise with my schedule. I’m a morning person and I suspect she’s more of a night owl. I usually start my day by 7 AM and try to wrap up by 4 PM, whereas she’s more of a 9-6 person. So she’ll frequently set up meetings for like 4 PM on a Friday, and I would otherwise already be in weekend mode by then. If I’m lucky, she might agree to meet at 3 PM, but she never seems to want to end our meetings on time and doesn’t seem very understanding when I say I really do need to leave at 4 because I have somewhere to be at 4:30 (which is true! I often have other commitments in the evenings!) I’ve tried setting up our meetings for earlier in the day, but she either reschedules them at the last minute or misses them entirely (and then wants to chat later, at her preferred time, after missing our scheduled meeting). She’s a peer, and these meetings are usually for something she wants my help with, which just makes it more frustrating that I feel like she seems to prioritize her own schedule over mine so much. I try to be flexible, but I feel like that should go both ways…

      1. Roland*

        I would stop being so flexible. Your ideal schedules are only 2 hours apart, this is not a USA/Europe/Japan situation where someone has to be unhappy. Decline meetings after 4 most days and after 3 on Fridays. If she misses the earlier time and thus it “has” to be Friday afternoon, cheerfully say “oh no worries, I can do same time on Monday.”

        1. jasmine*

          +1

          Tell her “I’m not available at that time”. If the meeting is going over, “I have to go now, I have a hard stop. Let’s sync later to finish this off”

      2. WellRed*

        I’m sorry but meetings at 4 on a Friday are just cruel, I don’t care what time of day you function best.

        1. Mad Scientist*

          I thought the same the first time I received one of these invites. I can’t comprehend why she would *want* to meet at that time when she’s free the entire day.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      It is weird that folks have favorite times, it happens to me too. Our company sweet spot seems to be Wednesday at 1p? (idk why it’s always Wednesday)

      I mostly just stick to keeping my calendar up to date and publicize at least free / busy times. If I’m on multiple teams / projects and they consistently conflict, I’ll try to offer official ‘I can’t make it, here’s available slots, can we reschedule?’ And sometimes I’ll do the due diligence of trying to find the slots that work for other folks if there’s a habit of published schedules.

      But if you don’t have calendar view rights, I find that clear and explicit declines help a lot, especially if they include alternate times. And if they’re locked onto the wed 10a with no options, can you setup a rotation? 1st wednesday is project a’s meeting, 2nd is project b, etc.

    6. Bast*

      It is: Not Monday, Not Friday, Not Too Early, Not Too Late, Not At Lunch. (all requirements Old Boss used to set for meetings). You could make the same argument for a Tuesday or Thursday meeting at 10:00 as well though, but maybe Wednesday feels like balance.

    7. Anax*

      Only a few conflicts, thank goodness, but nearly all my meetings are between 11am and 1pm. Fitting lunch in can be a real headache – I end up eating at my desk and taking my hour-long “lunch break” at whatever weird hour I can squeeze it in.

      (Pacific timezone problems; trying to hit “core hours” for everyone, I suppose.)

    8. Tio*

      I think there are two main causes. One, if a bunch of people are in the same types of recurring meetings – like there’s a weekly director meeting on thursday and a manager meeting on friday, and you need both a director and a manager in the meeting, that’s two time slots take – then you end up with the same days blocked from different angles for a lot of teams. Second, I think people tend to try and avoid times near the morning and times near the end of the day because of different start/end times of people (unless everyone is on the same schedule, that changes some things)

  40. Put the Blame on Edamame*

    This is my boss’s problem, not mine, but I’m curious if anyone has a take on how to deal with it or a similar experience.

    My team is a small start-up style department in a huge organisation. This org specialises in teapots of all kinds, with different internal tea pouring teams dealing with specific clients. My team works on a newer, sexier chocolate teapot that many people in the biz may or may not have heard of but is getting buzz as the next big thing in teapots.

    Our team has been doing great, with clients lining up for chocolate teapot advice and sales. One of our ongoing challenges is getting the wider Teapot Org to understand the depth of our chocolate teapot products or even that we exist- I’ve had tea pourers who are surprised that we offer chocolate varieties even after nearly 3 years of work.

    One big tea pouring department has a guy in it, Maurice. Maurice is a specialist in teapot lids who has a passion for chocolate teapots, considering himself an expert and pioneer in the field.

    Problem is, Maurice knows a bit about chocolate teapot lids, but not nearly enough to be an expert, he also has a very confrontational approach to outside chocolate suppliers, and yet he has taken it upon himself to be the chocolate Teapot flag bearer,not just in his department, but in our org and the industry.

    This is actually my boss’s remit – education and influence- but our whole team get blindsided by Maurice going behind our backs to chocolate suppliers,trying to take over internal projects, sending various internal emails with misinformation, and generally getting in our way.

    Maurice’s manager would never say boo to him – he appears to be in Maurice’s thrall – so my boss is working on getting other higher ups to make Maurice wind his neck in,but in the meantime I have to do a co-presentation with him. I can basically handle him for the presentation but don’t think I’d do well trying to cope with him long term!

    1. HR Friend*

      This is nearly impossible to understand or give advice on when you use this teapot analogy.

      Why do people do this? You can say software or whatever, I promise you’re not doxxing yourself.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Funny, this seems to be a rare situation where it DOESN’T make the situation incomprehensible. Maurice is overstepping his bounds and acting like a SME on something that he doesn’t actually know all that much about. What is hard to follow here?

        1. HR Friend*

          Maybe you’re right and I’m just over the trend in general and projecting lol

          It would be easier to parse, though, knowing the relative levels of expertise here.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Yeah, I thought it was pretty clear and I don’t think knowing the industry would really make any difference to the question.

      2. GythaOgden*

        Agreed. TBH, while I get why you might want to use the llama or chocolate teapot metaphors when assigning company names, the problem is that very few questions relate directly to manufacturing or animal husbandry, and thus using teapot painting or llama grooming to represent, say, coding a new app or running payroll is going to make it harder to give targeted advice.

      3. Busy Middle Manager*

        +100. Someone below is asking about why the salaries vary so much for “my position” on salary websites. Are you an Analyst? A nurse? Where are you located? How much experience? How can we answer these questions without information

      4. I wear my sunglasses at night*

        Yeah and with how hard they’re pushing the chocolate teapot analogy (which honestly, didn’t Alison even say she was kind of over that? BC it’s confusing?), I’m just going to assume that this is an Apple employee taking about Apple Intelligence (their new version of AI), or that weird virtual reality headset they have, or maybe Apple is trying to resurrect the eMac desktop computer again (not a bad idea honestly).

        So the only advice I really have is: don’t let Steve Jobs’ ghost find out that Maurice’s boss can’t get him under control before Maurice leaves an iPhone 17 prototype at a bar by accident.

    2. Lady Danbury*

      You don’t have the remit or authority to rein Maurice in if your boss is having to get other higher ups to do so. You say that you can handle him for the presentation, so you should stick to reining him in when it’s necessary for your job and otherwise let your boss handle the wider issue.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah I get where you’re coming from. A lot of us are auto-didacts, and therefore it’s not uncommon for amateurs & enthusiasts like Maurice to think he’s better at whatever then he really is.

      This is a management thing. Your boss needs to be much more blunt about telling Maurice to stay in his lane, because he is **violating company policy and confusing customers**, and CCing Maurice’s boss, as well as anybody else in the chain who needs to know about this.

  41. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    So, I’m trying my hand at starting a consulting/freelance business, doing data analysis and process architecture for small businesses and non-profits.

    I have done some freelancing in the past, a mixture of paid and pro bono work. What are the protocols for showing examples of that work on my website? Should I ask for permission from my former clients first? Do I need to label the work as pro bono?

    I have ways to make the data anonymous/non-revealing (e.g., graphs with axes labeled, but without any values or use made-up data), but I’m not sure if that would be okay.

    1. TheirIP*

      If it’s public – like a report they makeublicly available – no need to ask. If not, you need their permission – it’s their intellectual property.

      No need to specify what was paid vs unpaid.

  42. Job searching teacher*

    I’ve spent all of my career in K-12 and am now in the running for a staff job at a local university.

    The position would be assistant director of a small program. I see a lot of open assistant director positions on their website, which gives me pause, though it is a large school.

    Would love to hear from anyone who’s had a similar role your thoughts on what it’s like to work in that sort of environment.

    I think I’d enjoy the work but not as much as my current role. But it would be at least a 6% raise, paid parental leave, and the chance to diversify my resume and take classes.

    Also wondering how senior the assistant director positions are. Are they mostly filled by people a few years out of college?

    Any thoughts appreciated!

    1. ecnaseener*

      IME, assistant directors in universities & adjacent areas are not usually people just a few years out of college. A common set-up seems to be that they manage some of the more junior department staff and the director manages the rest.

      But I’m not at all confident that this is consistent across schools or even within schools!

    2. academic fashion*

      If it’s a large school, having a lot of asst director jobs open doesn’t mean a thing besides they have a lot of programs. You would like manage people, possibly do budgetary and communication projects, plan events and invite speakers, ensure compliance w/ university requirements, document people’s participation in the program, etc.

    3. candle hoarder*

      Many universities tend to inflate titles but I’ve never seen an AD role filled by someone fresh out of college, so I doubt that’ll be the case.

      1. ABC123*

        Are admissions departments an exception to that? I think there are some where assistant director is the entry level title (except for clerical admins)

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      In my own university staff department, assistant director is the first level of management. So those positions are usually filled by people with 5-10 years of experience in the specific field as individual contributors.

  43. chaos gremlin*

    I’m realizing that the fact that my job is never going to be less chaotic is becoming a dealbreaker for me, and I need to work on an exit strategy. However, I am geographically tied by my partner making significantly more money than I do, and there are literally no other jobs around here in my field (archives! Is anyone surprised by this?) that don’t require interaction with the public, which I flat out refuse to go back to doing for my own mental health. I’m also tied to my job for now because my family is using the tuition benefits, and I want them to finish their degrees before we lose those, so I have time to figure this out and do any education I may need to do to move on.

    I guess I’m just wondering…how do you figure out what you want to do when you know that whatever you do will likely be vastly different than what you do now? (also, if any librarians or archivists have any “I left the profession and I do XYZ now” that you’d like to share, I’d also love to hear those stories!) I have an MLIS, managerial experience (though I don’t think I want to be a manager anymore, the fact that I’m autistic makes it way more stressful), am very detail oriented, have very basic coding skills but am interested in building those up, would prefer something remote or hybrid over 100% in office, work hard, and am often told that I’m peoples’ favorite coworker.

    1. Trampled Under Foot*

      Solidarity! I’m in a similar boat, but on the museums side. Toxic workplace – seriously, the amount of people I hear with similar stories?! what is becoming of our industry?! – meager promotion potential, bad management, the list goes on. I still have a passion for the work, but spouse makes double what I do, and we have kids in schools that we don’t want to uproot so it’s hard to make a change. I would suggest looking for municipal courthouse jobs? University/hospital registrar? Fed gov’t records management? Or possibly a state records center? That way you can still use your skills, but it might be less people-y? And possibly more stable?

    2. ferrina*

      First, I love your user name.

      Next- it sounds like your exit plan has a longer timeline. That can be really helpful. If you are the kind of person that loves timelines, you can break your exit into phases.

      Phase 1: Information Gathering.
      This is where you try to figure out what you want to do next. Talk to different people in different professions- ask them what they do and what experience is valued in their field. Really think about what you like to do, what you absolutely will not do, and what is tolerable. Maybe look at some job descriptions to see what kind of jobs are looking for the skills you have.
      Phase 2: Skill Building.
      This can overlap with Phase 1. Quietly try to build up skills that will transfer into the direction you choose to pursue. This might be volunteering for projects at work; it might be classes or certifications; it might be volunteer work that gets you some experience or connections (you can get creative with this- for example, if you are working on website design, is there a small local non-profit that you can offer to do a sample project for? Explain it as “I’m looking to break into this field, so I’m looking to build up my portfolio. I’d love to redesign your website for free so I can have the experience on my resume. If you’d like, I can mock up a design and we can go over it to see if this is something you’d be interested in.”).
      Phase 3: Active Search.
      Exactly what it sounds like- actively looking for a job. Depending on what you are looking for and what your limitations are (geography, salary, experience, etc), this usually take 3 months-18 months (can take longer). It sounds like this would need to wait until your family is done with the tuition benefit.

      Concurrent: Support for yourself.
      Mentally detach from your job. Get some therapy if it helps; staying in a sucky situation can be draining, even if you know that it’s temporary.
      Invest in your wonderful hobbies and make sure that you are taking time for it
      Put a moratorium on talking about work. Don’t let it take up any brainspace outside of working hours.
      Good luck!

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Absolutely agree with all of this advice. One place where you can start the “information gathering” phase is right here! I recommend these two posts:

        “let’s talk about mid-life career changes” from May 28, 2020

        “how do you learn what types of jobs exist?” from April 14, 2022

        Hopefully they can give you some good ideas of which professions to start with when you’re in the “asking around about people’s experiences” phase.

  44. The Rural Juror*

    Funny little oops from earlier today – I was WFH and joined a Zoom call with 3 other coworkers to talk about wrapping up a project.

    I had grabbed a mason jar for my iced coffee right before the meeting. The thick glass tends to keep the ice longer without melting too much. One of my coworkers asked how my cocktail was… and I realized I was drinking from the mason jar on camera and it very prominently had the logo of a local whiskey brand on it!

    Hahaha oops! I should probably remember not to grab the complimentary mason jar cup from the distillery tour next time. We had a nice little laugh and I assured them it was NOT a boozy coffee. :)

  45. Vision challenged*

    Yup – I had lasik surgery about 20 years ago and that was a side effect. I’ve literally had to buy my house in the city within 20 mins drive of work along well lit surface roads so that I can commute during winter evenings. I could get a bigger and better house for less money 30 mins drive away in the countryside but driving winding country roads in the dark isn’t something I can do. I hope the employee is more of a nervous driver and can take some lessons to get past it so he can get a shot at the job.

  46. Anon for today*

    I am so bummed.

    My company went through a series of cost-cutting measures last fiscal year, in order to position us better for the current year and beyond. Two people from my department were laid off at the end of the year when the General Manager couldn’t find enough savings from other sources. The rest of us were assured that there wouldn’t be any more layoffs.

    Fast forward to yesterday, and additional layoffs were announced. Who was affected, and even the number of people laid off, is apparently a deeply held state secret. I found out one name when I emailed a person with whom I’d been working on a project due yesterday and didn’t hear back. (I checked in with my manager and they told me that the other person had been let go. Luckily for me it was a small project and I had enough time to complete it by the deadline.)

    I feel terrible for the other person—we’d both worked for the company for a long time, and she really put her heart and soul into her work. I also feel terrible for the others who were laid off but whose identities are being kept secret.

    How do I find out the total number of people who were let go? I’m wondering if the company violated the WARN Act. They used to have a policy that talking about pay or bonuses was a firing offense so I’m not convinced that leadership would pay attention to the details of other employment laws.

    And the real kicker? Our founder and CEO just retired, after leading the company for 20+years, and I bet he received a retirement bonus that would have paid the laid-off employees’ salaries for another year. It’s a privately-held company so there aren’t any public filings.

    1. WellRed*

      I think the warn act only kicks in at a certain threshold but maybe others know better. My question to you is: the writing is in the wall. Will you heed it?

    2. Eleanor*

      Time to go. Do not feel any more loyalty to this company than they feel towards you–which, clearly, is very little.

    3. Anon for today*

      @WellRed, I know that the WARN Act kicks in at a certain threshhold, and I’m wondering if this layoff crosses it. Hard to know when the #of laid-off employees is kept secret!

      And you are both right about the company loyalty. I have some pretty expensive medical issues and it makes me wonder when my name is going to appear on the layoff list. Although I’m not going to be shy about shaming the company for laying off a person in the middle of cancer treatment, if it comes to that. (My prognosis is good, btw.)

      The other thing, though, is that I can retire with full Social Security benefits next year. I can read the writing on the wall, but I really don’t want to have to job hunt so close to retiring.

  47. Quincy413*

    Hi internet humans,
    I’m looking for work and my current experience (organic SEO marketing) is becoming less relevant due to AI generative writing. What are some other career paths that I could pivot to? I’m open to staying in marketing/communications or moving on to something else? I prefer roles with less presenting/public-speaking. Due to chronic health stuff, I can’t really work outside doing manual labor.

    My experience/education:
    -about 4 years (some freelance mixed in) of web content writing, a little long-form social copywriting
    -analyzing marketing metrics and presenting them to stakeholders
    -recent volunteer experience creating email newsletters
    -recent contracting experience doing journalist pitches
    -I have a recent master’s in communications, studied humanities in undergrad
    (yes, I’m a walking meme of an underemployed English major)

    1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      I think there’s tons of stuff you could do in marketing with that skill set! You seem especially well suited for some kind of marketing manager role (not necessarily a people manager, but managing multiple communication streams) between your press, email and web experience. Small companies in particular often need one “do-it-all” marketing person, or a few “wear many hats” marketing people – the value-add is mostly in the ability to see what’s going on across channels and synthesize it into context-dependent strategy, rather than producing individual communications.

      1. Quincy413*

        thanks for the suggestion, I think I need to apply to more of those even if I’ve not 100% qualified.

    2. knxvil*

      Assuming you’re in Western Massachusetts (from the 413 area code), I might suggest looking into positions at places like small law firms or locally based brands in the closest city. I would avoid larger local entities like Newell, though–they own Yankee Candle, among other big names–as they’re the ones laying off marketing staff in a constant stream, despite always advertising open positions. I don’t think you need to leave marketing/communications, per se, if you enjoy it–you just need to find the right industry. Biotech might also be a possibility, as they’re hugely into metrics tied to content from what I saw when I worked in that field. Don’t limit your search based on job title, either. Your skills mirror what I’ve seen listed under “Content Analyst” and “Business Development Specialist” titles, with only slight variation. I’m an English Lit major who found success in law; if you’re a good editor/proofreader and don’t mind crazy deadlines at times, maybe consider narrower content-related positions where you’d simply operate in the background and churn out work (and never have to present in front of an audience, which I don’t like, either). Good luck!

      1. Quincy413*

        Good geographic guess – I actually live further east now. I’ll definitely look up alternate job titles and keep on trying to find my way in communications. Glad to hear you found your way yourself!

    3. Hermione Danger*

      I don’t know if this is an option for you, but have you looked into doing that for smaller businesses? They can’t necessarily afford the decent AI.

  48. call me wheels*

    Good afternoon everyone! So… I have kind of done it? I have kind of landed my dream freelance work??

    Long story short over the past about 4 months I’ve been trying to get to work on my favourite game series and after going through some tests of my work and a lot of anxious waiting I have just now been told they will give me some work in the next few weeks! It’s not regular yet but if this goes well it has the potential to be so, so this time next year I could be in the credits of my fave game ^_^ This will be my first freelance writing gig, hopefully the first of many even! Feels hard to properly celebrate until it is all actually all in hand but I am pleased anyway :)

    No big progress on getting a regular job still. I got offered a temp position by the agency I’m with but my disability meant it wouldn’t be suitable so I had to say no. Never heard another word from the recruiter or the hiring manager of the role I withdrew from last week (I posted about it in the last thread, the one where the owner sounded difficult to work for) I’m up to 65 job applications so far…. but a couple I sent out this week I think seem decent and I have an interview on Monday for something that seems alright, so hopefully that’ll go well.

  49. Hanes No Way*

    The “banding together” success stories reminded me of a “banding together” failure story worth sharing. In the early 2000s, they were working on updating the dress code at our nonprofit association, and a large group of women banded together to advocate for taking out the requirement that women wear pantyhose. Pantyhose were well into fashion decline by then, so this was absolutely not a radical idea. The (90% female) e-suite/HR thanked us for our comments and said they would give it strong consideration. So, naturally, not only did they announce that they’d opted to keep the requirement, women were subjected to daily leg checks for a few months after. I witnessed bosses going into people’s offices, peeking under the desk at their legs, and walking right out.

  50. ArlynPage*

    I’ve been looking to leave my job for a couple of months, and will likely need to provide references for a new role in the near future. As I didn’t want to telegraph my moves to my company, I was going to use as my references:
    – my manager from my last job (from 15 years ago)
    – the person I’ve been mentoring professionally for the past 3 years
    – a customer that I know will speak highly of me

    I know my 15-years ago manager will still speak highly of me, but it feels very very long ago and I wasn’t in the same position then. I just found out that my current direct manager is resigning, and is still serving his 2 month notice period. I would love to ask him if he’d be willing to provide a reference for me, but I’m not sure how to ask him. I also want him for discretion on this, but I don’t want to put him in an awkward position. Any advice?

    1. ferrina*

      Ask him to coffee. It can be in his last month or within a few months of him leaving. At coffee, say that you are thinking about next steps and if an opportunity comes up, would he be willing to be a reference?

      If he hems or haws, or is anything less than an enthusiastic “yes!”, I’d let it go. You can caveat it with “if an opportunity comes up” rather than “I’m actively looking for a job” to make sure it doesn’t sound like you are looking to jump ship (which he might feel obligated to report if he is still at your company).

      1. ArlynPage*

        That’s a great suggestion, thank you! He and I don’t work in the same office, so instead of asking him to coffee, I’ll bring it up in one of our weekly 1 on 1’s. I get the sense that he is not on great terms with the CEO (his boss) and am not too worried that he would report our conversation, but I like your suggested approach a lot.

    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I did this once with someone above me who I trusted. I worked closedly with her but wasn’t her direct report as we were in different work groups. We both understood reasons why the workplace was problematic and I wasn’t worried she would say anything even if they didn’t want to be a reference.

      Basically, I asked if she had a minute and framed it as “I have a bit of an awkward question so I want to begin by saying that if you want to say no, I would understand. I’ve applied for a job at ____ and I wondered if you’d be a reference for me. I know you may want to give this some thought and that it puts you in an awkward position; we can forget I even asked if you prefer.” In the end they agreed and it worked out well.

      Also, consider asking someone at your peer level who you work closely with at your current workplace to be a reference; sometimes they can speak to a lot of the specific questions the hiring manager would ask.

    3. Cordelia*

      honestly, as a hiring manager, I wouldn’t be very interested in a reference from a different role 15 years ago. If your current manager is resigning, surely that makes him the perfect choice? No reason for him to make things difficult for you in your current company now. I’d ask him “if I was to look for jobs in the future, would I be able to use you as a reference? You’re going to know my work better than the manager who replaces you”.
      One of my previous reports asked me exactly this when I was working my notice in my last job, and I was happy to say yes.

    1. epizeugma*

      The “us vs them” mentality Aubrey mentions was exactly my experience working at a small-ish company that administered a personality test to all employees as part of a culture initiative (not MBTI, but the Bridge Personality/4 color test). Awkwardly, I tested into the group deemed undesirable by most of my colleagues. It was disconcerting how quickly cliques started to form!

  52. Pop*

    I applied for a job that is within my very specific niche at a partner organization. While it wouldn’t be the most exciting job, neither is mine and it would be a 20% pay bump. I have good relationships at the org, including one close friend who would absolutely give me the inside scoop, and I know and like the person this position would report to and work closely with. I am not absolutely sure that I want this job but it certainly was worth applying and going for it – while a 20% raise isn’t life changing, it would be very helpful for my family and our financial goals, and there isn’t that much earning potential at my current org.

    I just got invited to a second interview. The recruiter has confirmed several times that the pay is non negotiable (there is a $5k range) for pay equity purposes. Fine with me. When she confirmed my second interview, she noted the pay and benefits are non negotiable. The only benefits presented in the job listing are pay, healthcare, and retirement, so I asked about time off as well.

    Well, the recruiter just got back to me. They offer TWO WEEKS vacation for the first two years. I have a small kid, caregiving responsibilities, family 3,000 miles away, lots of hobbies, and a spread out network of friends. I absolutely cannot do two weeks vacation. They are checking with the org’s board (!!!) if there is any flexibility on the time off. On one hand I can’t believe that I am passing on an additional $14k/year because of losing several weeks of vacation time. On the other hand, I can’t believe a “progressive” org with their professed values would offer 10 days of vacation time a year.

      1. Pop*

        I just passed year 4 at my current job. It’s okay and I’m not super actively job hunting, just keeping an eye out. I currently have almost five (which I’ve had the whole time), plus more sick time than I need, and a lot more flexibility for remote work than the new place (which is a bit more rigid).

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Fingers crossed the org’s board will be reasonable about increasing the amount of vacation time in the offer.

      If not, I personally make enough money that I would pass on an offer that paid me $14,000/year more but only had two weeks of vacation time. My quality of life would be worse with more money and less time off.

      1. Blue Pen*

        Same—altogether, I have a month’s plus of PTO now, not to mention something approaching two months sick time, and they would have to pry that from my cold, dead hands before I gave it up. It just matters more to me now than it ever did.

    3. WellRed*

      If you require several weeks, I don’t think you’ll be able to come to an agreement with this company but how do they handle sick time and other benefits?

    4. Hyaline*

      Just double checking–what do they offer in terms of other PTO (sick and/or personal days)? I ask because my husband took a “vacation cut” to take his current job, but he has unlimited sick/personal time. This ends up being a huge bonus because those two weeks ACTUALLY get used for vacation instead of picking up sick kids from school or dentist appointments. So…it might be worth weighing the option if vacation is stingy but PTO is otherwise generous.

      1. BigLawEx*

        Oh, this is so similar to a place I worked years ago. That personal time was gold. Except for meetings, I could be anywhere anytime without anyone blinking. No one abused it. It was wonderful. Vacation days were VACATION – not doctors, not personal stuff…
        (still side eyeing 2 weeks, though)

      2. Retirednew*

        Agree- I have worked at places with only two weeks vacation but pretty unlimited sick time and that worked well for me.

  53. ecnaseener*

    I’m going to be going to my first-ever professional conference! The only other person there from my team will be my manager, who is on the panel for one of the sessions. Is there a general expectation that I should attend her session? (It’s somewhat relevant to me, but wouldn’t be the one I’d pick for that timeslot otherwise. Nothing in that slot that I’m dying to attend.)

    1. EngGirl*

      I’d just ask her. There may be something that she would actually prefer you to go to. If she’s giving a talk in an area where she’s a subject matter expert, she may think you’ll get more out of something else since you have access to her all the time

      2. Sparkles McFadden*

        Definitely ask the boss. Whenever I attended a conference, I’d write out a proposed schedule and then review that schedule with the boss and ask if there were any changes the boss might want me to make. I’d do this especially when the boss wasn’t going to be there.

    2. Penumbra*

      I personally would go because I would be curious about how other individuals view my manager and it would add to my understanding of how to work with her.

    3. Unkempt Flatware*

      Yes, I’d def go. Here’s where I’ve misstepped in conferences. Some I agreed with, others I didn’t but oh well:

      -Trying to sneak out of the last session because I was exhausted at being around other people. My boss didn’t like the optics of it since we were the industry leader.
      -Being on my cell phone too much
      -Spending too much time crowding around my coworkers instead of being available to those in the industry who may want to reach me (i.e. network)
      -Not going to a key session that a colleague was leading because said colleague came to support me in the session I was leading

    4. BellaStella*

      Yes and take some nice photos of her on the panel for your org social media and comms. Send them a blurb of content of the panel too

    5. TheBunny*

      Yes. In this instance it’s less about the topic and more about supporting your boss.

      Others have said ask her…but were it me I’d just go and say hearing her discussion and supporting her were my priorities for that time slot.

  54. Penumbra*

    I work in local government and a series of events have aligned where I want to spend some personal capital on pushing for the benefits of management and leadership education and coaching versus the current philosophy of everything can be learned on the job. Do folks have recommendations for management and leadership certifications and classes that are online or short in-person training?

  55. NaoNao*

    This might just be a vent but if there’s anyone who’s experienced something similar and was able to do/say something, help welcome.

    My mega-corp moved to 100% remote during the pandemic, as many did. I was hired 100% remote tail-end of the pandemic and I had/have coworkers who have worked 10+ years as 100% remote.

    Lately the company has been “facing headwinds” and I believe they’re doing a RTO as a soft layoff process. Leaving that aside, the RTO push has been strong, including “up to corrective action” for not meeting the mandatory days in office. The thing is…we recently got a note explaining that the free food would be phasing out entirely in 2025, and that free food was one of the *very few* perks for the local hubs. The food wasn’t like…fresh hot cooked meals, it was boxed lunch type stuff and pretty minimal. Of course there was a cost, I get that but…

    We “hot desk”, and there’s no cafeteria or cafes in the building. My town’s office is in a rough part of town that’s not walk-friendly in terms of local eats. The seating options are very low partition cubicles and the office is pretty noisy, with spotty internet/tech issues. It’s always freezing/uncomfortable temperature. And! of course very few of us on my team are co-located so any “collaborating” that could be done is over Zoom, of course.

    When staff pushed back about this, pointing out that teams were scattered all over and we’re just on calls all day, leaderships’ answer was “network with other departments”–I mean. I’ve seen those people. They have ZERO interest in “networking”–they’re medical professionals working in a non-medical role (insurance) and “networking” has no value for them or us, the non-medical employees. I feel like that’s an answer for director level and above. Very few “front line” employees are interested or have time to “network” with people outside their departments.

    I’m just…it feels very punitive and contemptuous to me to take away or limit one of the few remaining perks but push, push, push people back into a really crappy office, but is there anything I could say that doesn’t put a target on my back?

    1. Potsie*

      Honestly, it doesn’t sound punitive or contemptuous to me. It sounds desperate. They are cutting costs where they can and trying to push people into quitting to avoid layoffs. You are on a sinking ship. Finding someone to complain to about lunch options probably is not what you need to do right now.

      1. GythaOgden*

        It kind of sounds like they want to prevent unnecessary layoffs by dialing back perks that are fairly unusual in the grand scheme of things.

    2. GythaOgden*

      If the choice is free food or being laid off, I’d start bringing sandwiches. It’s rare enough that offices provide anything like this, and I’ve had the same issue with my base office where it’s in a mostly residential zone with only a YMCA cafe and a gastropub within range. Most people IME just bring their own lunches or drive to a supermarket.

      I mean, you could look for another job if this is really a dealbreaker and the company isn’t looking that healthy, but bear in mind that this sort of provision is fairly unusual to begin with and yet a lot of other people manage to eat during the day despite being in similar situations.

    3. Hyaline*

      It’s a crappy situation–overall, including the hot desking and the forced RTO, not just the food perk ending–that you can’t do anything about. By all means, vent! And by vent I mean, vent here, or to your friends, or your family. Not at work, not to “raise the issue,” not to push back. It’s not going to do any good, and you’re right–it puts a target on your back. It sounds like the business is not doing well, and is trying anything and everything to prevent floundering. Complaining that a perk is gone will only sound whiny if the higher-ups are saying “yeah, if we don’t turn this around ASAP we’re looking layoffs or even closure.” Even if it’s not that dire, free food is…not a standard part of compensation. It’s a nice perk, but it’s by no means expected.

    4. I Have RBF*

      IMO they are circling the drain and actually wasting money by requiring RTO as a soft layoff when downsizing the building saves more money. My advice is to start looking – hot-desking in a crappy building in a crappy neighborhood with no lunch options nearby sucks. They will probably cut more and more to get people to quit, then do layoffs when all the wrong people (top performers) quit.

      When that merry-go-round stops you do not want to be on it.

  56. Rage*

    I’m working towards a Masters degree in Clinical Mental Health Counseling, and am finishing up my last semester. Technically I’m just finishing my required internship hours (the course itself was from the spring semester and I hold an “incomplete” – if I finish the hours by the end of the semester, which I will, then my degree will be conferred at that time). I’m not actually enrolled in any class this semester.

    I’m completing my internship at the teaching clinic the university, rather than at an external site, since I am working full-time and their hours are less disruptive to my work schedule than if I was elsewhere for an entire day. It’s not exactly a well-run clinic – nobody’s perfect but they don’t have a real “office manager” person to keep the Graduate Assistants who staff it running smoothly – but it didn’t majorly bother me (I’ve worked in places where it was worse, so). And I have some unrelated gripes about the program itself – but that’s a post for different day.

    At the end of the second week of Fall semester (and the end of the first week of clients), I received an email from one of the faculty, the director of the clinic, with an attached document. The email only said “please sign and return to me ASAP.”

    The document was titled “Video/Photograph/Audio Recording Consent Form”.

    The offices in this teaching clinic have video and audio recording, and clients have to agree to be monitored, as it’s part of our process to review with our supervisors or during certain classes. We have been told – and I have told my clients – that the recordings are erased at the end of each semester. But the form the clients sign for this purpose is veerrrry different from this one.

    Here is most of the problematic language:

    I authorize [university], acting through its employees [et al] to take photographs, video recordings, and/or audio recordings of Myself, including My name, My image, My likeness, and/or My voice (“Recordings”). I grant [university] an unlimited right to edit, reproduce, and use the Recordings in any manner or media now existing or hereafter developed, in perpetuity, throughout the world, solely for educational or training purposes.

    I hereby assign [university] any and all copyright I may have in the Recordings made of Myself hereunder.

    I acknowledge that I am not expecting to receive compensation for participating in the Recordings or for any future use of the Recordings, and that [university] owns all Recordings and the rights thereto.

    I hereby release and forever discharge [university], its employees individually [et al] from any and all claims, demands, liability, rights and causes of action which I, My heirs, representatives [et al] have or may have arising from or related to My participation in the Recordings or [university]’s future use of the Recordings, including but not limited to all claims for defamation, libel, invasion of privacy, or infringement of rights of copyright and publicity.

    I acknowledge and represent that I have carefully read this Release; that I sign it as my own free act and deed; that I am fully competent to sign this Release; and that the consideration for signing this Release is full and adequate. It is my express intent that, while I am alive, this Release will bind Myself, My spouse, and the members of My family; and that in the event of My death, this Release will also bind My estate, heirs, administrators, personal representatives, and assigns.

    WTAF?? I had to blink few times when I first read it, because I couldn’t honestly believe somebody would put together a contract this one-sided. (Then I remembered that NaNoWriMo tried something very similar earlier this year; I almost feel like they took a page out of Nano’s playbook.)

    Obviously, there is no way in heck or any other dimensional plane that I am signing this release. Some of the faculty in my program had never even seen it before! I finally managed to pin one of them who did down, who informed me by email that counsel and the security officer had stated that since students and faculty may review recordings made, during supervision or class time, that it might bring FERPA into effect and we should sign that we agree to share those recordings during review.

    Heh. But that’s not what the document says.

    She also dodged my direct question of “what happens if I refuse to sign?”

    I’m very worried they will try to deny my degree if I refuse to sign – and I would rather have that fight NOW, before I submit my application for my license, since I only have 4 months from the date of submission to have my degree conferred. I’m already reaching out to an attorney.

    As you can imagine, some of my fellow students did sign it – they didn’t know and/or didn’t care – and I would guess that’s probably what [university] assumed would happen across the board.

    But here’s the truly hilarious thing: They gave a copy to ME – and my full-time day job is Contracts Administration. And the person who taught me in my current role worked at [university] previously in the same role. And because we have a contract with this [university] for services unrelated to me and my degree, I actually have the name and email of [university]’s general counsel.

    Whoops.

    So: I’m writing “REFUSED” in big letters (in Sharpie) across it, and noting at the bottom that I am deliberately refusing to sign this document and I in no way am releasing anybody of any liability in regards to recordings of myself. I’m not taking any chances. I want it on record.

    I just needed to vent. This situation is beyond ridiculous and I’m just peeved that I paid tens of thousands of dollars…just to end up with THIS.

    1. Gimme all you got*

      I’m not a lawyer so I don’t really understand what’s problematic about this, but hopefully it won’t affect your degree

      1. honeygrim*

        Actually, I think that’s part of it. Rage DOES understand what’s problematic about this contract, but a lot of their peers don’t but are signing it anyway.

        Not quite the same situation, but at my previous job (in higher ed), I was involved in a project which required that I get copies of the release forms students in the performing arts signed to allow the university to record their performances. It was similar to this one, in that it was full of legalese that I–someone with multiple graduate degrees–didn’t understand. But college freshmen were signing this, and thus signing away rights that they didn’t realize they were giving away.

        Eventually, the institution realized that this release form needed to be much clearer, and to actually give the students the option to “opt out.” Which was allowed, but wasn’t stated in the first version.

        Rage, this sucks. I also hope you don’t have any problems getting your degree for taking a stand on this. Best of luck to you!

        1. Rage*

          Yeah, that’s the thing about this too – there isn’t an option to rescind it later. And the lack of transparency about why they were asking us to sign it is very annoying (not to mention suspicious). But I would expect nothing less from a state school whose “fees” are 2x their tuition for 1 credit hour (seriously: a 1-credit hour class this semester was $900 – only $300 of which was specifically tuition).

          I responded to the faculty member who told me about FERPA, saying “well that makes perfect sense except this document is telling me I have to agree to let you edit images and recordings of me and discharge all liability.”

          She replied: Uhhhhh….that doesn’t sound like the form you are supposed to be signing.

          I forwarded her the original email, so she can see both the attachment and who else received it.

    2. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

      That contract is completely effed up and I strongly agree that you must not sign!

      Given how chaotic universities are, I think it’s really unlikely that the news of your refusal to sign will reach the right people to affect the award of your degree. So the risk is in practice minimal, most likely.

  57. Carrots*

    How do you deal with a boss who will say and do things just for a reaction? (Besides find a new job.) My boss will say things and if we react, she’ll just smirk and seem pleased with herself. Has anyone ever had a boss who did this?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      I find ‘honest’ confusion works relatively well – “That seems an odd thing to say, why did you say it?” Then she has to either defend it as if she actually holds the opinion, or claim it was ‘funny’. And if she admits to doing it for the reaction, something like “I don’t really find that funny / amusing” but in a sort of ‘disappointed at the juvenile edge lord behavior way’.
      And obviously, if the ‘jokes’ are HR type issues, be willing to shut it down. “I think that is a really inappropriate attitude to have about x. Please don’t say things like that.” and then if it happens again, bring it up with HR.

      But if it’s just off the wall weirdness, I tend to go for professionally and respectfully saying “obviously I’m missing something because a normal coworker would not be saying this weird thing, please explain”

    2. ecnaseener*

      Two main options: try not to react, in the hopes that she’ll get bored and give up (but risks that she’ll escalate instead), or just let her have her smirks and move on from whatever she said without expending any effort on it.

    3. ReallyBadPerson*

      In situations like this, I just look very confused and then say, “I don’t get it. Could you explain?” It works for crude jokes, sexist remarks, and just weird comments.

    4. Nesta*

      I’ve thankfully not had a boss like this, but definitely friends and acquaintances.

      I find that you have to become very boring to these folks. If they are looking for a reaction, they need to not get one that is satisfying to them. Exactly what you would say or do, depends on what she is saying. If it is inflammatory things about clients or colleagues, you could say something like, “Huh, that isn’t my experience, but everything is different for everyone, I suppose,” and go back to work.

      If it is just wild speculation to whip people up, don’t show that you are affected by what she is saying. If you have to say anything at all, you can say, “Well, I guess we will cross that bridge when we get to it,” and turn back to work or ask a benign question.

      If it is about a non-work topic, deny any knowledge of it. Talking about politics? You haven’t been following it. Talking about some piece of media? You aren’t familiar with it. You can’t speak to anything she’s saying and nothing has much impact on you, since you don’t know about it.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Not a boss, but others.

      Pretend she said bananas are 35 cents a pound, or that the weather is seasonable.

      “Oh?”
      “Hm.”
      “Yup.”

  58. Cj*

    I just wanted to comment on burning bridges with people you think you will never see again.

    I currently work as a CPA in the tax department of a smaller but not tiny (may 70 employees, 30 in the tax department). This is the third place I have worked with one of the other CPA’s. We both live in the same state but about 6 hours apart, and the three firms we worked at together had offices around the state. I have no idea how we ended up at three of the same place.

    There is another CPA that be have both worked at the same place for our last two jobs. The first of those jobs was located in CA, I’m in the Midwest and she is in the south. I think we ended up at the same place because we had the same recruiter, who works for a national firm that concentrates on CPA’s.

    Fortunately, there was no reason to burn bridges with either of these people, just isn’t other industry people in your same geographic location that you need to think about anymore.

  59. un chip más chill*

    Hi! I am finishing week two of my new state government researcher job – this is my first job after my PhD , before that I was an early childhood teacher . It’s remote work, everybody has been very welcoming , it seems to be going well so far, and I’m so grateful I found a job and am off the job market!

    But I am a little worried about messing up / being annoying / have some imposter syndrome (classic new job anxiety) – anybody have any tips they wish they’d known when they did a career transition ? General advice ? Encouragement ? Thanks in advance !!

    1. GythaOgden*

      Well done for getting the job. (And your doctorate. No small achievement that. I’m so jealous — I had a place to study for mine but couldn’t get funding — but seeing the hard work that goes into getting to call yourself Dr Chip más Chill must be awesome in and of itself.)

      In my case, any imposter syndrome was squashed when I was told that I’d done a particular job twice as fast as the previous admin had. She’s a lovely person and we get on well, but she was struggling in a clerical role, so they moved her to reception (where she was already working in person) and she’s now kicking butt there and much happier.

      It gave me a sense of belonging, a sense that I could do what was needed without a problem, and that my educational background (my highest degree is a legal research Masters and I have a diploma in a foreign language from a university in that country as well as my BSc in Government) can actually help me serve this job as an apprenticeship of sorts to help me move up — after ten years on reception while my train wreck of a personal life went from bad to worse. (After having to give up my place to study at KCL in London, I lost my husband to cancer as well; just call me Jobette.)

      So focus on each part of the job carefully, don’t jump in feet first into commenting before you know the ins and outs, and allow others to coach you. Imposter syndrome is real, but it can be overcome if you’re careful to follow where others lead for a while. I’m almost a whole year in to my job now and I’m a changed person — my confidence at work has rubbed off on my ability to bite the bullet in other life areas and I just feel terrific about it. Take it one step at a time.

      And definitely — please accept all the good vibes, encouragement and best wishes I have in me. It’s a real rush, isn’t it, when you get a new job, and you can start to feel like you’re doing something useful again. And remote jobs are way cool and mine has contributed to a greater physical and mental wellbeing :). That’s not to be sneezed at or taken for granted, and you’ve certainly earned it.

    2. Glazed Donut*

      Congrats to you! I have been there – actually, very similar background and new job!
      A few things that helped me (although to be fair I still have imposter syndrome some days): 1) realizing what the office is currently doing in terms of research and realizing that I DO have a perspective to add/share – me joining the team wasn’t a random fluke; it was intentional and 2) not comparing myself to my grad school peers/professors. It’s easy for me to think “yes I know X and Y but I don’t feel I fully mastered Z or A B C like Sam does.” At the end of the day, I’m still adding to the office and I can keep learning and growing in ways that benefit the office. I’ve got to stop comparing myself to the pristine peers I knew in my program – they’re not in the office.

  60. Doonbug*

    Same old story: too many projects, all of them urgent, not enough resources.

    This time, we are launching new products but there’s no product manager. We have an exec managing the roadmap and a coordinator handling administrative stuff, but no product manager. I’m in marketing so the exec (not in my chain of command) keeps saying that she’ll pass me the product and all I have to do is write the copy. Simple, right? Except the product doesn’t even have a name yet and no one can tell me the specs or what’s included in the product and what isn’t/is an additional paid feature, etc. I try to explain that the product needs product development, exec says she’ll handle it, but then keeps asking me to “massage the copy”. I explain there is no copy because there is no product, and now we’re going in circles and I don’t want to come off as “not a team player.” Any advice?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Write a very short generic example. Leave placeholders for specifics. Make it clear what information is missing. “Product ABC September 2024” instead of a product name. Or seize this as your chance to make up a random name for it lol.

      2. A Significant Tree*

        Can you create a template from the generic example? With all the fill-in-the-blanks it should be obvious what you can and can’t do without more information. Or at least be a fun little Mad Libs in the meantime!

        “Company X is excited to announce the release of Product _____! It will ____ for our customers and ____ the future of _____. Its most amazing feature, _____, will _____ as part of your business. Available _____ and _____ after _____ 202_!”

    2. Kay*

      Your seniority may dictate just what your copy looks like but I’m thinking:

      COMING SOON TO A THEATER NEW YOU (…some new rainbow unicorn product)!

      It may do (…X, Y and Z!, if we are lucky) and it’ll for sure be REAL!!

      *We may or may not charge you for twinkles and sparkles (sales still arguing with accounting)
      *You definitely won’t be able to sue us because we may claim unicorns are real

  61. LookingForARaise*

    There seems to be a fair amount of variety between average salaries for my position (I’m gathering information to ask for a raise). Which sites are considered reliable? And unreliable?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Check out the post “how to find out what salary you should be making” from March 5, 2019.

      You might also find some useful data in the latest “how much money do you make?” spreadsheet (post from April 9, 2024).

      I’ll put links in a reply.

    2. NotAccurate*

      I’ve never found any of the sites to be very accurate. Accuracy apparently varies by field and location as other people have had better experiences.

  62. Sienna*

    I’m an individual contributor (comms field) and have worked almost exclusively at nonprofits. Right now, I’m looking to find a new job and I’m increasingly frustrated by how little opportunity for advancement I’m finding for people who aren’t managing staff. It seems like you can either just continue to make lateral moves or become a freelancer. Do any individual contributors here have experience with finding positions where advancement is an option without moving into management? What has that looked like?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Some companies specifically have IC paths (Microsoft is a big one), but otherwise, there is typically a lower ceiling on the IC path than the management one at many companies. Very frequently I see Senior and not much beyond that. If you’re not yet a senior (or equivalent) in your role, I’d start a search there. Otherwise, I’d research companies that offer strong IC paths.

    2. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      Depends on what you mean by “lateral” moves. One option is to look for roles that are similar to what you’re doing now/same level of responsibility, but at larger or smaller orgs (depending on what specifically you’re looking to gain from advancement).

      Larger orgs often mean your work is higher stakes/more influential/more complex (with needing stronger relationships with more stakeholders). Can also mean more money.

      Smaller orgs often mean more exposure to leadership/more authority over budget/more independence/more opportunity to take on new types of work when there’s a need.

      Obviously that’s an extreme generalization, but something to look for in JD’s beyond the title. You could also look for roles with significant vendor management responsibilities, especially if that means allocating large portions of budget across multiple comms channels or multiple high-cost vendors. That’ll get you lots of responsibility for higher-level strategy without needing to be in a people-manager role.

      Also, IC advancement can come from joining an organization in its growth phase and building a fledgling program from the ground up. Lots of room for innovation, designing a job around your personal strengths and interests, etc. Again may not be immediately apparent from the title or even the JD.

  63. Unchatty Cathy*

    I recently received feedback from a skip-level report suggesting that I should walk around the office more and engage in small talk with employees. As someone who is socially awkward and finds small talk exhausting, this feels overwhelming and somewhat inauthentic to me. My predecessor was very chatty and would frequently wander around the building randomly talking with staff, which is quite different from me. They had also been here for two decades and I’ve not quite been here a year.

    I do make an effort to be friendly when visiting other parts of the building for work-related reasons, but I don’t intentionally wander to other areas as a routine. I’m concerned that the feedback might be based on personal preference or what they are used to, rather than a broader organizational need – but maybe it is!

    How crucial is it for me to wander around the building chatting with staff? If it is important, what are some practical ways to do this routinely without feeling forced or insincere?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Schedule it in your head, like Tuesdays 10am you’re going to take a break to go get coffee and go the long way around and say good morning to as many people as possible, then go back another long way around. Or if your building has floors, go get coffee on the wrong floor etc.

      It’s not all small talk either. There is a known phenomenon that pops up with HR and other things where people won’t raise an issue via phone or email but will if the person happens to be walking around. Its about approachability.

      1. Unchatty Cathy*

        I wish it were that easy! All offices are dead ends – there is no through path, they are all in corners of the building. The staff break room is smack dab in the middle – and we don’t even offer free coffee (maybe that needs to be rectified?) I think that’s my biggest issue – I don’t have any possible reason to be going to other’s offices even “on my way” to somewhere else, so going there to chat feels really contrived.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Could you invent a task – like distributing informative flyers, or… idk, handing out pens with the new branding? Figure out a reason to go talk to someone at the end of one of the halls, and see who you run into on the way there/back? Spend a bit more time in a break room or by the coffee machine?

      2. TheBunny*

        This. I have 5 direct reports. I’m the last one scheduled in so as I’m on the way to the kitchen to drop off my lunch I stop by all 5 offices. Sometimes it’s quick “good mornings” and I’m in my office again in 10 minutes. But sometimes it’s “oh since I have you….” conversations.

        It lets me be available to my team but in a low key way.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think “chatting” might be too much – this isn’t really about small-talk conversations. And I can’t tell you if you really need to do this, or if this is just one person’s opinion. Is there a way to get some insight into the company culture about why this is a good thing? Does it make you aware of new projects that your reports might want to work on? New technology/initiatives, etc?

      If you have skip-level reports, you’re relatively high up in the heirarchy, and part of leadership, as opposed to management, is being aware of what else is going on, not just focusing on narrow job tasks. Are you aware of what else is going on in your company? Are you curious to learn more?

      If you do want to make an effort on this –when you do go to some other part of the building, be open to nodding or saying ‘hi’ to other people as you stroll by. And if you want to establish a habit to help mix things up, get coffee from a different machine every morning as a way to open yourself up to random encounters with others.

    3. EngGirl*

      Start walking over to talk to people occasionally instead of sending emails/teams messages. When you do this take note of what’s on your employee’s desks and make polite comments. This will invite light chatter “I like your plants, you’ve got a green thumb” “That looks like it was a fun vacation” “oh you’re a (insert sports team/music group/tv show) fan?”

      Also asking “how was your weekend” occasionally on a Monday is also a great low stakes way to chat.

      Eventually you will learn things about your employees that let you talk to them briefly in a way that makes them feel like you care about them but won’t be too draining on you. The key is to keep it light and not spend too long on it

    4. Sherm*

      I think in a lot of offices, it would be rather odd for someone to just wander around the premises like a politician and strike up conversations out of the blue. And a lot of people would be annoyed at being interrupted while they are working. And if your predecessor was the only one wandering around like that, it doesn’t sound customary where you work.

      I wonder if your skip-level report meant it more in the sense of “get out more?” Do you feel that there is any truth to that? If not, and instead you feel that you have cordial relationships with your coworkers, and that they would feel comfortable approaching you, my guess is you are probably fine.

    5. Charley*

      If it’s that you’re not seen as accessible to people, or that your skip level boss feels there’s not enough cohesion across teams, I wonder if it would be more comfortable to set up like an office hour or meta-team coffee break that happens regularly, so you can plan for it and there’s not pressure on you to just drop in on people, which I agree is an odd request.

      1. Unchatty Cathy*

        Thanks everyone – these ideas are making me feel better about the whole situation and less anxious. I think I will do a combination of several of them – I already eat my lunch in the break room and chat with whomever is interested in talking there, but maybe I will do some sort of more formal “office hours/coffee break” type thing – but not in my office, either in the break room or in different conference rooms. I could even designate each one to be with a different department – if I provide food it would probably be a way to get people to stop by. And I can get up off my butt and walk instead of emailing or messaging people!

        1. GythaOgden*

          It’s hard. Anxiety is a killer and there are times like this evening (getting a quote from a workman to pave my front yard; gotta be done, but I’ve never really engaged someone for a project like this) that the five minutes of actual debate and measuring up and getting numbers kind of winds me all evening. Last week I booked the first swimming session I’d planned in 25 years but I bottled it and didn’t turn up; I’m still trying to get into that mental space to get the exercise my physio said I need to be able to ditch my walking stick. Buuuuttttt there’s a big mental block. So it will be draining the first few times but it will get easier.

          But the more you do it, the easier it becomes. And I think you’ll reap a lot of rewards with your colleagues and reports because you become much more approachable as a leader. And from my perspective, as someone who went from a prickly supervisor to a more personable one, it will make a lot of difference to the people who work for you.

      2. GythaOgden*

        Also more structured things like corporate social responsibility projects. We’re having a bake sale fundraiser in November for a local hospital to support their non-clinical family welfare programmes (i.e. recognising that while the NICU may well be funded by government spending on healthcare, there’s also wellbeing needs that the NHS finds hard to directly put together itself and thus people can plug the gaps — a bit like how, while the health service administers direct cancer care, non-profits like Macmillan focus their resources on the human beings coping with the lifestyle fallout of their or their loved one’s illness). My colleague — a senior manager who is the lead for a whole swathe of the countryside around the main town in the area — has a daughter who was very premature and so she volunteers with them, and since they’re a healthcare charity which would serve the local community, it’s all about being socially minded as well as sociable.

        My org also does roadshows. Since people largely work onsite at the properties we manage (like, catering, cleaning, maintenance, reception, the kind of roles that are essential to the business function but often find themselves on the wrong side of a wide gap in expectations and outcomes from white-collar administrators and admin) management getting out and about and meeting people who get the fundamental jobs done is really important. They’re able to answer questions and seem less remote, as well as being more in touch with the people they manage.

        It may feel awkward just wandering about but doing something other than strictly work might help those who feel they need you be approachable and fulfil another social need at the same time. It’s also maybe what team-building days could help with — a chance to get to know people in an informal manner and help them be aware of services you provide for their wellbeing and benefit. I know this site doesn’t like team-building per se (I’m cool with it myself but at this stage of my career I kind of need to be able to network with people so I don’t have a lot of choice but to go to things like this; for that, though, I get tangible bennies like a hotel stay if it’s outside my base office), but as a means of being seen to be out and about as a person it would definitely make you seem less remote and task-focused and mean your employees see you as a human being as well as a figurehead.

  64. Faintofheartt*

    I just want to shout some good news into the void. My spouse completes his first full week of work at a new job today, after being unemployed for NINE MONTHS. Woooo! :)

    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Congrats to you and your spouse! What a relief, and I hope it’s a solid job for as long as he needs it.

  65. Mad Harry Crewe*

    Question about getting a Masters degree in the tech world.

    I graduated with a BA in Chemistry, and I’m currently T2 tech support/Support Engineer. I’m interested in moving towards database manager, T3 Support Engineer, data analysis – roles that more heavily involve writing or revising complex code, working with and building database schemas, that kind of thing. I’d rate myself as decent with SQL, currently learning Python.

    I’m considering grad school as one possible path for an international move (US to Canada). In terms of my residency application, there are several advantages, but I’m concerned that this is not a good use of time or money in terms of my career.

    Looking for opinions/experiences about:
    – Getting into a Masters program when you graduated with a different BA/BS
    – Utility of Computer Science Masters programs towards a software engineering career – this is my main concern, that it might not actually get me anything useful
    – Recommend other certificate programs that fall under the grad school umbrella but not specifically a Masters, that I should look at

    On the one hand, I’ve heard that the point of any kind of boot camp or masters is networking, and you can get that from a boot camp just as well. On the other, I’ve heard that an actual CS degree (BA/BS or Masters) will teach a lot of best practices and fundamental ways of thinking and writing code that a bootcamp won’t, so you’ll come out a better programmer.

    1. Brownie*

      Oh, this is a tough one. Where I’m at the fact that I have a geosciences degree instead of a CS degree means that I’m considered to have a full 4 years less experience at my job than those who do have a CS degree despite the fact that the tech/software we support is not taught in college – it’s always an on-the-job learning thing as the costs are too high for colleges to buy the software. In hiring here folks with CS degrees are considered to match better with the position as well, they get bumped higher on the list than those without even if those without have more actual job experience. But I’ve now watched two of my coworkers get CS masters degrees to try and push them to a higher pay grade and it hasn’t paid off for either of them. It only meant a single-time 3% pay increase for them which was less than the interest on their student loans for the degree!

      What flies much better in the software/database world that I’ve seen is certificates. Look at what the key fundamentals are that you’re interested in – is it application design? Database design? A specific technology like Python or Java or MS SQL Server? Look for certificates specifically designed for those. I got my first out of college IT job because I’d gone and gotten a CompTIA A+ cert. The hiring manager explicitly told me that certificate was what got me hired, not my actual 6 years of IT work experience, and I’ve seen that repeated many times since across different companies. Show up with the fancy certificate and oh! You’re a go-getter, a proactive learner keeping up on the latest tech and someone who’ll bring knowledge to the position!

      If you’re not invested in specific tech see if you can find one-off classes or certificates in things like troubleshooting fundamentals, IT problem management and analysis, IT specific project management, application and database design, UX design, or data compliance requirements like GDPR (data security is required so many places it’s a good all-round thing to have anyways). If you can find classes from a university on the above that also works, check community colleges especially as they tend to have more of a job seeker focus. Heck, there might even be a community college online programming fundamentals curricula that gets you a certificate at the end, I know my local community college has one.

  66. Chirpy*

    How do I tell the difference between “job that I should apply to despite not meeting all the criteria” and “job that is actually too much of a stretch” ? I do realize women are much more likely to undersell their abilities, but I honestly don’t know how to judge the difference. I’m looking in multiple different fields and my qualifications are…all over the place, and/or limited experience. (I lost my “good” job in the 2009 recession and never really recovered professionally because it was my first job out of college.)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      My advice is to look at the job description and ask yourself “Can I do this job? If there are skills that I don’t already have, are they things I can realistically pick up in a short period of time?” If you think you can do the job, apply for it.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve also had at least one case in which I applied for a job I wasn’t fully “qualified” for on paper, and I didn’t get hired for it, but the hiring manager still reached out to me and ended up hiring me for something else (that didn’t even yet have a job description at the time). So it definitely doesn’t hurt to apply.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Ditto. I didn’t get directly hired from applying to an internal job, but the talent acquisition team helped steer me in the right direction and talked to me about what I was actually looking for. I ended up getting a leg up directly through my boss creating a new role for me, but it was a serious confidence boost at the time when I most needed it.

    3. ferrina*

      If it’s interesting and you’re 50% qualified, apply.

      If/when you get an interview, that’s when you can ask more detailed questions to see if it’s a challenge that you are ready/willing to take on.

    4. constant_craving*

      If there are things like licenses or certifications they’re requiring, I usually assume those are non-negotiable.

      For other stuff, I’ve often heard that if you have about 70% of what they list, it could be worth a shot.

    5. ArlynPage*

      I look at the responsibilities section and think about whether I could do each item right now, vs how much time it might take me to learn how to do it. If it’s something I could become familiar with after seeing it done once or reading a book about it, then I don’t let it stop me from applying.

    6. pally*

      Why not let the employer make that decision?
      Within reason, of course.
      If you feel that you meet most (60%-80%) of the criteria for the position and can learn the things that you might not be proficient in doing, why not apply?

      1. Chirpy*

        It’s the “within reason” part I’m not sure about. For example, several of the jobs I’ve been looking at want 10 years of experience, when I have at most 4 in the field – but there’s literally no listings for more junior positions in any of these fields, or for other jobs within the organization to start from.

        One was hiring for a lower role, with no benefits and less pay than my retail job (!) and I currently only make half the median wage for my area. So just completely not a living wage for that one, but the better job was perfect benefits and 3x what I currently make, but I just don’t know if I’m going to look out of touch if I apply, given my limited experience (and also, that experience was at a job I was technically fired from/position cut, and I’d have to explain that somehow.)

    7. GythaOgden*

      In general, nothing ventured, nothing gained. After talking directly about professional development and what I was interested in doing beyond reception, my boss pushed me to apply for a senior manager role in data analytics. I’m not sure she really thought I’d get it (at least I hope not) but she’s a big fan of helping people realise their true potential. Once I’d made a twit of myself by sending that application off, I didn’t feel so uncomfortable applying for things I thought I might actually be able to get from where I was as, like I’ve said before, cabin girl on the Marie Celeste (seriously, I couldn’t even get other reception jobs because I’d spent 2-3 years as skeleton crew in an empty building during the pandemic and my experience with actual customers and clients had gone rusty).

      So I’m going to take another tack and say that abstract notions of what to apply for and when and gendered approaches aren’t necessarily the best thing to be thinking about. For us, it is/was a question of setting out what you can do, where your field was when you left it, where it is now, what knowledge gaps you’d have to fill to get back in and what other transferable skills you have from your retail job or my reception job that would build a plausible case for someone in a more corporate environment to take us on. 4 years’ experience would be fine if you were applying directly from that job, but as time goes on and it grows more and more distant, it’s going to matter less and less to employers because they will have other choices.

      Like me, you’ve been underemployed so long that it might be hard convincing people of your experience being /fresh/. While yes, there is a gender gap, and yeah, I did get noticed by Talent Acquisition at my org by applying to something that I just wasn’t qualified for that wasn’t like Chief Exec, you’ll be up against people with current experience in that field and the 10 year experience thing would be a big leap. When you’re applying for a job, you’re trying to fit the criteria but you’re also up against other candidates who will be coming from within that field already and have current understanding of what’s going on. That’s the main issue I can foresee. (I’m thinking of me and my chartered accountancy training back in 2001-02. Yes, I plausibly have year one of financial accounting and audit education, and maybe I still remember the principles. I even still have habits I picked up while working there, like initialing everything and using the Del key rather than backspace. But if I were looking for an accounting job, I would be against people who have been in the job for years, have current knowledge and experience and can make a better case for actual ability rather than one year fading into recent history.)

      It might help to cast your net a bit wider and look for an entry-level role in a similar field or something like delivery administration (that is, doing clerical work for your chosen field, not being a PA or a receptionist etc) to get your foot in the door and noticed. I did that by networking with people — I was in a large organisation, but it demonstrated that even if I didn’t have the experience, I had the potential, and was able to prove that I also had the soft skills of being able to tell people way above me in the hierarchy that they need to sign this document TODAY or a supplier will pull their business. So when you don’t have recent, fresh experience, what you’re going to need is networking and foot-in-the-door tactics.

      I think we’ve been in the same situation for a similar length of time and it was definitely hard to make that leap upwards. There were lots of times I had interviews where I came across well as a skilled person and a sociable colleague, but was pipped to the post by someone with fresh, relevant experience. So it’s not just your years spent in your field before the last recession, unfortunately; it’s whether you’ve been actively keeping up with it while working retail and building relationships that will create a path upwards that helps you make friends in high places who recognise your worth independent of experience you may not have.

      And good luck. It takes a superhuman effort even when you find the right strategy. But you do need strategy here rather than just tactics. From direct experience, there were times when it really did look like I was never going to be anything but a receptionist, and strategy is tiring to orchestrate when you’re only just about treading water. Fist-bumps all round and I’ll continue to wish you well.

      1. Chirpy*

        I mean, I’m looking for entry level roles in three different fields, and there just aren’t any – or if there are, they’re temporary, part time, and/or not a living wage. I just legitimately *cannot* make less than I do in retail, even temporarily, because I’m barely surviving as is. They’re just not the kinds of fields where even a receptionist job is likely lead elsewhere in the organization.

    8. Blue Pen*

      The things listed at the beginning of the job description are most likely to be the most important. Where are you on those? If you’re solid there, apply. If they’re listing skills and experience you know you don’t have, but could feasibly learn (or at least feel relatively comfortable) within the first 6 months, apply. Look at where you’re at now, skills-wise, and ladder up to the next rung. What does that look like? If you know you have the foundation for that next step, apply.

      Generally speaking, the only time it’s wildly out-of-touch to apply is when you’re applying to be a general surgeon at a hospital when you’re a photographer without an M.D. There are, of course, fields where you absolutely need to have certain experience X, but I’d say most other job listings are malleable. You very well might have something now they never thought they might want or need. In my current role, my manager said that if they were re-posting my job, they would rewrite it with me in mind—they didn’t know they needed what I bring to the table.

      If you’re excited for the job and think that you check off at least 50% of what they’re asking, go for it. And good luck!

  67. Alex*

    Just venting here. I found out that my manager is hiring a temp to help cover the unusually large workload my group has at the moment.

    Sounds great in theory, I know! But….I also know that one of my coworkers is not pulling her weight at all. And because of the increased workload, this has become untenable. But instead of managing her out they are bandaiding the problem by hiring a temp.

    This coworker is just the worst—disappears for hours for no reason and misses scheduled meetings as a result (forgets about meetings and isn’t at her desk to get the reminder), misses deadlines, produces work full of errors, becomes defensive and hostile when confronted with these errors, etc. Our workloads are posted on a large whiteboard for everyone to see, and I easily have twice the workload she does (and she is paid more than me, as we have the exact same job but she has a year more tenure). Yet she is always complaining she is overwhelmed.

    I just don’t get it. Why? If they fired her and hired another competent person full time they wouldn’t have to bother with temps.

    1. MsM*

      Maybe this is actually a temp to perm placement and they just haven’t made that public knowledge until the temp’s been trained to take over?

    2. EngGirl*

      She could be being managed out and you just don’t know it. The temp could be a stop gap so that when she is eventually fired/if she fails to complete a PIP you guys don’t all suddenly end up with her work.

    3. constant_craving*

      How is your management generally?

      If they generally do a poor job, then sure, go ahead and take this as evidence they continue to make bad choices. Is it tolerable or bad enough that you don’t want to work for them anymore?

      If your management is generally competent, I’d assume there’s something going on you’re not aware of. A PIP, for example, or medical accommodations that explain the disappearances.

    4. Alex*

      I hope you all are right!

      She’s been here for almost three years though and this has been a constant problem ever since I started two years ago, so…I won’t hold my breath.

      Generally management is very permissive and always wants to give people the benefit of the doubt. Which is great to a point, it just can go too far sometimes. I think this person has been taking advantage of their goodwill (and they have let themselves be taken advantage of).

      1. Ron McDon*

        I am leaving my current job in two weeks because of this reason! I got absolutely fed up of this person shirking their work, meaning more work being pushed onto the rest of the team, and management not doing anything about it.

        We are all paid the same, but I was also annoyed that she was earning the same as me for doing so much less, and never following the SOPs when she did actually do her work.

        I worked here for nearly two years before this issue (and other management failings) finally made me lose my anxiety about changing jobs and just go for it! I literally couldn’t bear the thought of working with her any more.

        All this to say – in my experience assume nothing will change, and management will carry on hiring temps to allow her to shirk her work – are you going to be able to carry on working there in those conditions?

    5. GythaOgden*

      Generally the first priority is going to be getting the work done so the balls don’t drop and wreck everyone else’s jobs. It’s nice in theory to convincingly demonstrate someone’s incompetence by letting everything crash and burn, but most actual workplaces can’t let that happen. They will lose actual money, actual clients and actual reputation that they can’t afford to lose, and so they’re taking the first steps here to shore up a department with a weak link so they can then maybe take remedial action on the person involved without the whole department being in trouble.

      Case in point: I wasn’t taken on solely to start shifting someone similar out of their role, but when I started as a general regional delivery admin last November, it gave one site of ours an opportunity to get the important work transferred to me (like stuff like purchase orders raised for blocked toilets to be cleared on patient wards, which is a ball that really can’t be dropped just to prove a point!) so someone could then be eased out of her role elsewhere. The work was covered, so the other person could be put on a PIP and found a different role elsewhere that she would be better suited to (and it paid off because she herself acknowledged she was out of her depth). It might cost a bit more in the short term, but in the long run a better case can be made for easing this person out if the rest of the department can be seen to be functional and there’s someone in place to keep the department going.

  68. Spacedog*

    I’ve had a string of unfortunate corporate jobs, where I end up reporting to a toxic manager. I feel like AAM does a great job of helping us identify potential toxic bosses during the interviews, but I’ve often found myself unwillingly internally transferred to these folks after being hired. Sigh.

    At the suggestion of friends, family and even my therapist, I’m considering starting my own business. I’m motivated, I’m good at what I do, and I’ve been doing the work to understand my own part in these unfortunate work environments. I think that I’d get a lot out of self employment but I know my industry is in the tank and it isn’t a great moment to launch my own thing. I was laid off this year anyhow, so it’s not like I would be leaving anything to take a risk, and I’m still applying for fte roles while I strategize.

    All that being said: I’d love to ask the lovely readers of AAM who have started their own businesses if you’d be willing to share any thoughts or suggestions! While I have the business plan and marketing and all of that in place, there is so much to learn!

    PS: Honestly, a bit worried about how to find clients. : )

  69. ThrowawayName*

    My work situation has been bothering me for a while, but I have a hard time articulating it and a hard time talking to people about it. The TL;DR is that I have massive guilt over my job due to the combination if it being extremely cushy and me barely working.

    Extremely cushy: My salary is over $200k (I’m in the US). My bonus is nearly enough to cover my kid’s tuition at the private school that they attend. My partner has a similar salary, and wealth-wise we’re in the top 1% of our state. I am completely remote and have unlimited PTO. The culture here is great and all my co-workers are great at their job and a joy to work with. My boss is supportive but also fairly hands off.

    Barely working: I’m a people manager, and while there are times where there’s a lot of work to do (I put a great deal of time into writing performance reviews, and typically put in late nights to get it done), most of the time I do absolutely nothing. I attend meetings, but if I can get away with it I’m camera off and my attention is elsewhere. Sometimes I leave the meeting tab open but mute it and watch YouTube instead. When I’m not in meetings, I’m not even at my desk. I spend literal hours every day not working. There is a daily stand-up meeting that I dread because every day I lie about what I’m doing. I typically say vague, hand-wavey things like I’m working on documentation or “manager stuff” (exploiting the fact that a lot of managerial work tends to be confidential) but I am constantly stressed that people will figure out I’ve been lying about this for years.

    One of the things that makes me feel extra guilty is that everyone seems to think I’m doing a great job. I was one of the few people who was rated as “exceeds expectations” last year (probably because the department has a history of being too lenient with underperformers, but I terminated someone). I get great feedback from the people who report to me. My boss thinks I’m doing a phenomenal job.

    I have, on numerous occasions, tactfully mentioned to my boss that I have a lot of bandwidth and have asked for more responsibilities. Not because I want them, but to alleviate my guilt. I’ve been given some, but my boss says that they don’t want to give me “grunt work” or work that doesn’t push me toward my goals. (I don’t have any goals.)

    When I’m trying to make myself feel better, I remind myself that I do some work at least. Also that I’m compensated due to the value I provide the company, not necessarily how hard I work. If I can help retain high-performing employees and coach/terminate underperforming employees, that’s valuable. I also do work that a lot of other people don’t want to do, like firing people. It is not stressful to me at all (am I a sociopath?).

    I think part of the reason why I barely work is that I would truly love to not work at all. My dream is to be a stay-at-home parent. I had this when I was growing up, and I would love to give this to my kid. My situation feels unethical and dishonest, but it also gives me the best of both worlds: I can help provide for my family and build up financial security while also having time (that I steal from work) to do the things I love and have passion for: cleaning and organizing the house, volunteering with the PTA, managing my kid’s extracurricular activities, etc.

    Don’t know what advice I’m looking for really, just wanted a place to vent!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You said you’re a people manager. Do you feel as if you’re actually managing those people well? If so, and you don’t feel busy at work, I don’t see what you have to feel guilty about. In terms of how cushy things are, save as much as you can, because you never know when you or your spouse might get laid off. If you still feel guilt and have saved a bunch, donate to some worthwhile charities.

      1. ThrowawayName*

        > Do you feel as if you’re actually managing those people well?

        I do. That’s something I take a lot of pride in, and based on the 360 feedback I get from them, I think they also feel as though they’re well-managed.

        > In terms of how cushy things are, save as much as you can, because you never know when you or your spouse might get laid off. If you still feel guilt and have saved a bunch, donate to some worthwhile charities.

        Yeah, for sure. I try not to not take it for granted, and manage our finances as though it could all go away tomorrow. My partner and I have been investing quite a bit. We on occasion help out family members with financial needs; donating to charity is a good idea too!

    2. Reba*

      I’d suggest therapy and looking into joining the board of a non-profit in your community. You sound like you have skills and time that would be valuable to an arts or charitable org. And you deserve relief from your feelings of guilt.
      Finally, turn off access to Youtube or whatever your time waster of choice is during your meetings. Genuinely I think you will feel better if you give your attention to those meetings.

      1. SusieQQ*

        > I’d suggest therapy and looking into joining the board of a non-profit in your community.

        I am in therapy. XD I think I would love non-profit work, but it’d be a massive paycut from what I make now. I’m not sure I’m willing to do that right now.

        > Finally, turn off access to Youtube or whatever your time waster of choice is during your meetings. Genuinely I think you will feel better if you give your attention to those meetings.

        Mmmmaybe. I agree the time-wasters are probably detrimental in some way. I have a very hard time focusing on the meetings when most of the time I just don’t care about the content. (That may bring up a separate problem of am I attending meetings that truly aren’t a good use of my time.) I have tried forcing myself to not engage with the time-wasters or to take notes to force myself to pay attention.

        1. Reba*

          To clarify, my suggestion is that you volunteer as a board member, not change careers!

          re: timewasting, IME I feel a lot better when I work during the time I’m actually at my desk intending to work. Half-assing meetings just adds to the bad feelings.

    3. A Significant Tree*

      Some questions and thoughts that occurred to me when reading this, in case you find these helpful. My situation is not very different (except I’m not a manager and wouldn’t prefer to be a stay-at-home parent again), so I understand both the guilt and the complacency. The line about the value you bring to the role/company rather than the hours you put in resonates for me. In some ways it’s like the adage about paying a plumber $$$ for a 5 minute fix – you’re not paying for the 5 minutes, you’re paying for the years of experience that made it a 5 minute fix.

      Do you know what your peers/other managers’ workload is like, and whether they are doing things that you aren’t now but could or should?

      Do you jump right in when you are given assignments by your boss? Do you see a need to do lower-level work, like to help out on a specific project or with periodic high workload that your reports experience? Or conversely, are there more strategic things you could contribute to?

      Does the feedback from your reports indicate that you are managing at the right level of giving them autonomy but being invested in and informed about their work?

      Consider that your current work/life balance is part of what makes it possible for you to be the great boss/colleague/report that your feedback says you are. But also consider that if any of that feedback is based on lies you have to tell in meetings about your productivity, it’s probably not the feedback you’d get if you were strictly honest about how you spend your time. There’s an ebb and flow to jobs like these, just make sure you’re not checking too far out during the down time.

      1. ThrowawayName*

        > Do you know what your peers/other managers’ workload is like, and whether they are doing things that you aren’t now but could or should?

        Some of them take on work that my boss has made very clear to me that I could do if I wanted to, but it’s not part of my job and I won’t be dinged in any way if I don’t do it. It’s not work that interests me, so I don’t do it.

        Other than that, I don’t see them doing anything that I’m not.

        > Do you jump right in when you are given assignments by your boss? Do you see a need to do lower-level work, like to help out on a specific project or with periodic high workload that your reports experience? Or conversely, are there more strategic things you could contribute to?

        I do, yes. My boss gives me very few assignments but when I get one I take it on enthusiastically. And I do help out on specific projects sometimes, such as communication and organizational stuff which are not my co-worker’s strong points.

        > Does the feedback from your reports indicate that you are managing at the right level of giving them autonomy but being invested in and informed about their work?

        They have no complaints about this, so I think so. I review their work occasionally (which is consistent with the requirements of my role; I am not expected to review all of their work).

        > But also consider that if any of that feedback is based on lies you have to tell in meetings about your productivity, it’s probably not the feedback you’d get if you were strictly honest about how you spend your time.

        This is a good point, I’m going to give it some thought.

      2. ThrowawayName*

        To proactively clear up any confusion, when I said that I’m camera off “when I can get away with it,” what I meant was when it would be culturally appropriate to do so. At my work it seems like the larger the meeting, the more likely it is for people to be camera-off, so that’s what I do. In small meetings like where it’s just the team and certainly for 1:1s, I’m always camera-on (like almost everybody else.)

    4. HonorBox*

      Are there some specific things that you could do under “people manager” that might be longer-term projects that you could do when you have some time but aren’t time sensitive? Creating some documentation of procedures? Putting together resources that help you coach those employees that need coaching? Big strategy type things? Then in those standup meetings, you could say that you’re working on those, and then you can spend some time on them from time to time. Are there resources that would make you / your workplace more efficient? Research those while you have YouTube videos playing. Take a demo meeting on those.

      It sounds very much like your workplace values you and values your contribution. That’s awesome. Lean into your strengths and then supplement your day to day. Heck, you could almost look at it like you’re creating everything the workplace will need when you decide to pull the plug and stop working full time.

      1. ThrowawayName*

        There are things like that I could be doing, and some of them I would genuinely enjoy (I gave our document store an organizational overhaul and created some reference docs) but for the most part they just aren’t as enjoyable to me as the “not work” things I could be doing instead. It would be a better way to spend my time though than watching YouTube, if I’m going to let my eyes glaze over during a meeting.

    5. Eleanor*

      You have the dream job of most people alive on the planet. Congratulations! Don’t feel guilty; clearly the organization feels they are getting what they pay for out of you.

      1. ThrowawayName*

        Thank you, this is what I tell myself sometimes. If I can give them what they need in 10 hours a week instead of 40, and they’re willing to pay me for the value of that work, then … maybe there’s nothing wrong with that?

    6. Think OUTSIDE the box because the cat is already IN the box*

      I don’t do well with very repetitive tasks. Most of my job is a solid mix of routine and ever-changing, but at one point it was getting too repetitive to keep me engaged. I reorganized everyone’s workloads and found some opportunities to contribute to my professional field. See if your credentialing organization needs Council members. Volunteer to be on the planning committee for a professional conference. See about taking a formal mentoring role within your company or for a local business association. There are lots of good opportunities out there, and it’s truly building value for your company. They are usually thrilled to have their name associated in a substantive way with such visible organizations. Not that you necessarily need this, but you may be able to negotiate a raise for serving as a subject matter expert at local and national levels.

    7. Kaleidoscope*

      people manager…do you network? do you have check ins with the people you support? are you available? do people actually know what you look like!?? (not a joke, the only permanent WFH person in my team, I’d never seen with camera on until 10 months into my job)

      1. ThrowawayName*

        There aren’t a lot of networking opportunities, but yes I do. For about a year I have been in a leadership position in an employee group that has allowed me to meet people that I don’t regularly work with, and I’m part of a group that is randomly matched up with another person to have a 30 minute chat each week.

        > do you have check ins with the people you support? are you available? do people actually know what you look like!??

        Yes. I have regular 1:1’s with all of them, I am available, and they know what I look like. I have met all of them in person, and I am camera-on for team meetings. Also my department is all fully remote, so me being remote and working from home is the same as all of them.

    8. Tx_Trucker*

      I have an employee who earns $80k a year who spends all day talking to people. He has often told me he feels guilty because he doesn’t do anything. But talking to people, coaching, retention, morale boosting, etc, is “work.” For people who don’t enjoy it (like me) it would feel like I’m working very hard.

      1. ThrowawayName*

        I think this is a big part of it. A lot of my job comes naturally to me, so it doesn’t feel like work. For whatever reason I have always been able to establish trust very quickly, and my personality is such that I’m a good listener and show empathy.

        My work bestie told me that they would never want to do what I do. So, I think you’re onto something here.

  70. PropJoe*

    Annoyance of the week: we are losing our departmental admin assistant soon, he put in his notice recently. Because of budget issues, we are in a hiring freeze, which in effect means that approval from the president is required before a job opening can be posted.

    Our request to fill the soon-to-open position was denied. Phooey :-(

    (Asking our current person to stick around is a non-starter. His wife makes a lot more than him and she just got a job that requires relocation. At least their kids are young enough that they’re not switching schools mid-year.)

  71. BostonANONian*

    I’ve never written in to the Open Thread, but I could use some advice – or maybe just some comforting words from folks who’ve been through it.
    I’m very newly pregnant (yay!), and even at 4 & a half weeks, the morning sickness has begun, and it’s all day long. While I haven’t vomited yet, it kinda seems like just a matter of time… I’m an attorney, and unfortunately, I have a few court appearances coming up in my first trimester – including a 2-day trial with my boss! I’m so nervous I’m going to get sick during the trial and give it away before I’m ready to announce. How would you handle that?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Not to give medical advice, but there are over-the-counter pregnancy-safe medications that can suppress vomiting for short term. Talk to your OBGYN — they should be able to recommend ones without needing an appointment.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        I took vitamin B6 three times a day to help. The crucial thing for me was Emetrol, specifically the chewables. I had a timer on my phone to take one of those every hour and a half. It helped a lot. Even if you’re feeling nauseated, they reduce your ability to vomit.

        Also congratulations :)

        (Putting this as a separate comment in case it needs to be removed).

    2. WorkerDrone*

      Can you wear a mask during the court appearances? If you find you need to suddenly excuse yourself, people will probably just assume you’re ill, not pregnant.

    3. MsVanS*

      No advice here, just commiserating. When I was in the early stages of pregnant, I had morning sickness too and had to take a road trip with my boss. I ended up telling her sooner than I intended to–it just seemed easier than hiding it. Good luck!

    5. ArlynPage*

      It always helped me to nibble on some saltines when I started feeling queasy.

      When I was pregnant, I thought I was being smart and trying to front-load all of my work travel so I wouldn’t have to hobble onto a plane when I was further along in the pregnancy. But I accidentally scheduled all of my travel and work meetings during the worst of my morning sickness, and had to excuse myself many times to throw up and then come back. I just treated it like it was a regular bathroom break, and I don’t think anyone noticed. I even had a coworker with me for several trips who was shocked when I finally announced my pregnancy; she hadn’t suspected a thing, even while I was stepping out to (discreetly) barf twice an hour!

    6. DrSalty*

      Congrats on your pregnancy! Have you figured out yet if anything helps make it better? For example I found if I ate a couple of saltines every hour it really really helped with the nausea. It was the absolute worst on an empty stomach. Having a ginger ale or cup of peppermint tea to sip also really helped take the edge off for me. Otherwise I’d talk to your doctor about medication that keeps you from physically vomiting. It exists! Good luck!

    7. BostonANONian*

      Thank you all for the helpful advice! It’s honestly just reassuring to hear that folks found solutions and made it work. @No Tribble, I will definitely pick that up before trial!
      I’ve been trying to make sure my stomach just isn’t empty, but this is definitely new and I’m still figuring out what works – and preparing for things to get worse. The trouble with trial (at least in this court) is that I won’t be able to snack during. I bet the mask trick would work, but that can exacerbate nausea for me (as I learned with carsickness). The B6 sounds like a great solution, and so does peppermint tea to sip on.
      While I think lots of people wouldn’t jump from puke to pregnant, I think my boss would make the leap. I guess we will see!

      1. Lady Sally*

        Ask your OB. I won’t give medical advice but there are easy off brand meds that helped me survive. It absolutely sucks. It does get better though. Everyone is different as to when it gets better… hang in there.

      2. Gillywhompus*

        With both my pregnancies I had “morning” sickness all day long for 3-4 months, then parts of the day for most of the pregnancy. I never vomited, only felt queasy. It’s different for everybody, but don’t assume that you’ll start throwing up. If mints or hard candies help, you can probably discretely pop one in your mouth during the trial.
        Congratulations and good luck!

    8. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I think you need to weigh how your morning sickness might affect your ability to competently represent your clients in court. If it were me and I thought I may not be able to give 100%, then I’d discreetly tell my boss or first chair well in advance and canvass some ideas for what to do in the event that my morning sickness negatively affected my work product (at best) or knocked me out of the courtroom (at worst).

      Have you asked any pals from law school what they did when they were lawyering while pregnant?

      Last thought: Do you want your boss or first chair to first learn about your pregnancy after trial has started?

  72. Rep (taylor’s version)*

    Our new supervisor started last Tuesday (September 3). So she’s been here for two weeks. In that time, she’s induced panic situations two separate time for me. I work as a Project Manager for an organization (aka “Owner’s Rep”), so I oversee design teams who design our projects. My new boss was formerly on one of our hired design teams, and did that for 35 years.

    So twice within two weeks she responded to two of my project updates with a response that necessitated me running down information as though the buildings would fall down if I didn’t find out this information. By the second time (knowing the results of the first “urgent” situation), I didn’t respond. She uses the phrase “in my experience” which is great but she’s definitely not used to working on the owner’s side, where actually nothing is urgent. I’ve been an Owner’s Rep my entire career (19 years), so a lot of the hiccups that come up in design and construction do not phase me.

    I don’t like fake panic situations and I just don’t know how long to hang on here. I’ve been here for 1.5 years, so I’m not super tied to the organization, but I have a lot of job protections I’ve never had before. I also don’t feel like trying to impress a new manager, but I worry that me showing up as my normal self and working at my normal pace will somehow come back to bite me. I don’t know.

    I think I just wanted to vent but maybe also reassurance that either this will get better, or I should jump ship now.

  73. An Omynous*

    Resume questions, keeping in mind that my last job was over a year ago:

    1) I offered to help organize a retreat, can I put this under my work experience as “Tea pot retreat organizer – Volunteer” with the dates (likely ‘Sep 24 – present’ or similar), or should I make a volunteer section above the work experience section?

    2) The reminder to vote letter earlier this week made me wonder if I could put “poll worker” on my resume? Not sure it’d add anything except potentially a line as a volunteer…

    1. Sneaky Squirrel*

      #1 – I would create a volunteer section to not make it look like you’re misrepresenting your relationship with the company you’re volunteering with.

      #2 – Are you trying to fill in blank space? You could put it and I don’t think it would hurt your chances, but if it’s not relevant to the types of jobs you’re looking for then it’s unnecessary fluff. You’d be better off using the extra space to add more information about the work you did at your previous jobs.

      1. An Omynous*

        #1 – not a company but a previous instructor (from the creative program I’m enrolled in, which I’ve been told to leave off my resume as it’s not relevant), and typing this out kind of reinforces the volunteer section vote, yep

        #2 – yeah unnecessary fluff sounds right, good gut check

    2. MsVanS*

      Are event planning and civic engagement related to the roles you’re applying to? If so, I’d definitely include them, just be clear that you did both in a volunteer capacity. If not, did you attend any relevant industry conferences, take any relevant classes, or join any relevant committees in your community over the last year that you could include?

      1. An Omynous*

        The event planning is definitely relevant but I’ll keep this in mind if I come across jobs with civic engagement aspects.

        As for the event planning, I mentioned in my previous reply but a previous instructor from the creative program I’m in wants to hold the retreat, which is taking classes but not professionally translatable (unless it counts as creativity). I’ve been advised to leave the creative program off my resume as it’s not relevant (even though it’d be something filling up my last year)…

    3. Hlao-roo*

      For your first question, my personal preference is to organize the resume like this:

      Work Experience
      [job that ended in 2022/2023]

      Volunteer Experience
      [Tea pot retreat organizer] Sept 2024–present

      But I think that just having one “Experience” section and listing the volunteer position first as you have it makes sense too, especially if there’s overlap between the skills you’re using to organize the retreat and the skills the jobs you’re applying for want.

      For your second question, I’ve volunteered as a poll worker and I don’t think it adds anything to a resume. It is important work, and does take a certain amount of organizational and customer service skills, but not a huge amount of those skills and it’s just for one day at a time, so there isn’t a chance to demonstrate sustained performance.

      If you want to be a poll worker for other reasons, please do! It’s an important position, I just don’t think it adds anything to a resume.

      1. An Omynous*

        I’m glad you brought up making just one “Experience” section because after I posted my question I wondered why I hadn’t mentioned that, hah.

        Yeah I thought so, thanks for the confirmation!

  74. Capital City*

    I lead a department of 15 people. Two of the three managers on the team are leaving due to family issues. One has a less demanding job lined up; the other is just taking time. They’re both adored by their colleagues and direct reports, and I’ve done everything I can to try to keep them (reduced hours, etc.). The timing isn’t great either–we’re moving offices and it’s a stressful time of year for the industry we’re in. Any advice on how to share the news? Best ways to check in on the team and ensure they’re ok? Two team members just started, with one reporting to one of the managers who’s departing.

    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Let folks know what the plan is for hiring their replacements, set up regular 1:1s with everyone who won’t have a manager – maybe weekly for the new hire and biweekly for the rest. Overall, though, this stuff happens. Don’t panic, or make it sound like other people should panic. Don’t put a ton of weight on how much you want to keep them or don’t want them to leave – that’s just going to come across like a guilt trip. Meaning – “So-and-so will be missed” is fine, but “I offered everything I could think of, but So-and-so just couldn’t be swayed from leaving us in the lurch!!!” is not.

  75. How about 3pm on Tuesday*

    I’m looking for a professional and polite way to say “If you need more than two minutes of my time and it’s not for something the-office-is-on-fire-and-only-you-can-put-it-out level of urgent, I need you to book time in my calendar or put it in an email so I can get back to it on my schedule or at least give me/be happy with the option of me calling you back or coming over to find you when I have more time. If you don’t do that, I can’t promise I’ll have time to deal with it. But, if you choose not to put something in my calendar or email me or book time with me but then turn up late or decide you want to meet later in the day, could you at least not have the audacity to pout and strop if I tell you I don’t have time to deal with that right now/I’ll have to think about it and come back to you/I can’t answer any follow-up questions right now and so on and so forth.”*

    For context, I’m in a client-facing role and working on time-sensitive work. It is not uncommon for my diary to get booked up quickly and at short notice with meetings or chunks of time I “hold” because, for example, I’ve got an hour-long piece of work which can’t come to me before 10am and I must be ready to pass to the next person by 11am. I appreciate not all the people I work with work in the same way and, for at least some of them, “let’s just catch up on Wednesday -I’ll just give you a call whenever” is probably a perfectly reasonable approach, so need a way of explaining to people that I’m not being overly formal or rigid, it’s just my day will otherwise get booked up that quickly and if you do just call whenever on Wednesday, you may catch me at a time that I don’t have time to talk and am now busy for the rest of the day! When I can, I often just put the time in people’s calendars myself but it’s not always an option and it doesn’t overcome the people who just think being 30 minutes late for things is ok, because I should just be able to accommodate them 30 minutes later, rather than being halfway to my next meeting. I also appreciate there’s an element of “can’t please everybody” here – that some people are just never going to be won over by the idea of booking time for a 15-minute call – but I’d like to at least not offend as many people as possible.

    *To be clear, I’m not really saying this. Just sometimes thinking it. Although saying it out loud is pretty tempting some days…

    1. Time blocking*

      Can you share your calendar with them? That way they can see your competing demands and decide whether to pop an appointment on it.

    2. EngGirl*

      When they say “I’ll just catch up with you for 15 minutes on Wednesday,” – “I’ll be happy to do that if my schedule allows, but I have so many requests on my time that the safest bet is to just book some time on my calendar. My calendar is up to date so take a look and if you want to guarantee we get to talk on Wednesday send me an invite.”

      For the people who just stop by – if you’re in an office get a “status” sign for your door. Mine says come on in, in a meeting, do not disturb, out of office, etc. This way you can head people of somewhat. When I didn’t have an office I would just stick my headset on sometimes to make it look like I was on a call if I was busy. Then when someone approached I’d mine that I was on a call.

      Also if you can, block a couple of “random meeting times” off each week. Think of them like office hours, but don’t advertise them. Then when someone seems put out that you can’t answer them right then and there you can say “I’m sorry, but I can shorten my 1:00 to be done by 1:30 and we can circle back then if that works for you?” This makes it look like you’re taking their problem incredibly seriously. So seriously that you’re willing to change your own schedule for them. 60% of the time they will say “oh you don’t have to do that, please just see me when you can” and the other 40% they will be so grateful.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        This, or alternately, I have a weekly 2 hour block on my calendar that’s “office hours”. I’m remote so mine is a teams meeting, but my actual team all has the link and it’s in my email signature as well. I leave the “lobby” on and let people in one at a time if they show up, and if no one shows up then I have some quiet working time.

      2. Lurker*

        The status sign is a good idea-you may have to hold firm about it for a few days, but after that it may help significantly.

  76. Emperor Kuzco*

    Resume question! I went back to university in my 30s to enter a completely different field (teapots), and I was very fortunate to get a teapot job in when I graduated. While I was attending classes I worked retail jobs to fit around my schedule, all unrelated to teapots of course. When applying for new teapot jobs now, how far back should I go for previous employment? I’m in my second teapot job, so I have a total of 2 teapot jobs and 1 teapot internship while I was in school that I could list. I’m still keeping my resume to one page, even though I’m 40 and could easily fill it up with older, non-teapot jobs.

    1. MsVanS*

      Go back 15 years! But don’t weight everything equally–spend most of the space on your teapot jobs and just list the others without additional detail.

    2. Educator*

      I had a career change and split my resume into a section with relevant experience, where I went into a lot of detail, and other experience, where I just list titles and dates for tangentially related roles that proved I knew how to be a person in an office, manage people, etc. So you could try a “Teapot Experience” section and an “Other Experience” section to keep the manager’s focus where you want it.

  77. Amadeo*

    I need some outside thoughts. I will try to be as thorough as possible. Also when answering remember I’ve suffered a setback twice this week.

    I have been at my place of employment for 8 years in an internal marketing office. When I started, there were three web folk, including myself. Three years in, I was down to just me. I interviewed then for a management position which I did not get. The marketing director said, and I quote: “I feel like I would be setting you up for failure.” Which, kay, point taken. But it was obvious then that I was interested in advancing. My current supervisor was part of the office at the time and was aware.

    Two years ago we reorganized and my title changed from ‘web specialist’ to ‘ui/ux designer’ which was not the least bit accurate and something I could do nothing about in reality. My now-supervisor asked me why I didn’t push harder for a management title.

    Last month, we were informed of another reorg. This time with a web management role on the table for an expanding team. I have been carrying a 4500 page website on my back, alone, a web team of one, for 5 years at this point. I applied, but received the news Monday that my supervisor was not even going to interview me. Proceeding to address all the shortcomings in my application. The job description for this web manager job was, line for line, my daily job. Of course since we advertised it externally, we had other applicants, and I expected that, at least, to have to fight for it a little bit, but I didn’t even get that far.

    On the other hand. Two people who have been with our team less than half of the time I’ve been there have both received promotions. From my point of view, they’ve been given opportunity after opportunity to grow and advance for moments just like this.

    Whereas I was just kind of an after thought. I can talk knowledgeably about SEO, accessibility, got my GA4 certification, started a web dev certificate (that I’m having to pay for myself) and have attended quite a lot of professional development conferences. I don’t see myself being given the same opportunities these other two have been.

    Monday’s news was a shit-show to say the least (and today’s news of the young lady getting her manager position did not help me in any way). I was furious, and that just makes me incoherent and tearful. It’s a little late now for them to walk it back, but I need some scripts I think to figure out what the h-e-double-hockysticks is going on.

    Obviously at this point I need to just go, and I’m working on that, but in the meantime…

    2. Kay*

      It is going to be really hard to assess without having first hand knowledge – so…

      Managing is a lot different than doing just the tasks of the day to day job. Have you been managing people, building relationships with people in the organization, working on budgets, goals, long term planning?

      What did that list of shortcomings from your supervisor say? Do any of those things have merit?
      Is there anything about your personality or the way you come across to people that could be seen as difficult?
      I noticed you used the term “young lady”, are you older and maybe the younger employees have more experience in newer technologies the organization wants?

      I don’t like that your supervisor asked why you didn’t just push for a manager title without more reasoning for it, but it does sound like they at least gave reasons as to why they weren’t moving forward with your application. Have you asked what it would take for you to be ready for a promotion?

      I think you should at least do some thinking on the above questions, because as an outsider I can’t tell if this is a situation where “the higher ups just don’t like you and you need to look elsewhere to get ahead” or it is more like the letter writer who was an insufferable jerk to everyone but thought going back for a masters degree would solve all their problems. If it is in any way the latter those problems need to be tackled before you respond as if it were the former.

      I wish you the best in your journey!

      1. Amadeo*

        I will be 44 soon. The woman that got the other manager position is indeed much younger. Only she does graphic design work, I keep the lights on on our website. I bear her no ill will, she’s just doing her job, but I watched her get set up for success since she started, with opportunities to speak, and lead focus groups, etc.

        And I was left to stuggle on my own. For example, during our ‘this is why no interview for you’ discussion I was told it ‘took too long’ for me to get my GA4 certification. That was never a goal leadership in my office officially set for me. I set it myself at year end review last year. I finished it before mid-year review this year.

        I don’t *think* I’m insufferable? I train people to edit their own corner of the web. They never hesitate to call on me for help. People from my own department will come straight to my office if they need anything. I’ve had editors tell others I’m super nice. I DO have ADHD and can be a little scattered, and my layers of masking fell apart last year and I had to get that taken care of, so my health did suffer for a hot minute, but that’s not something I ever took out on anyway, and my supervisor was aware I was seeing a doctor about it.

        Obviously I am not a perfect person by a long shot, and when you’re responsible for the care and feeding of a gigantic website, you miss stuff sometimes and go back and fix it ASAP when you find it. It also doesn’t leave a lot of time for anything else. But it just feels like there are about three people in the office getting special attention for leadership/management positions and…I’m just quietly trying to keep my head above water.

    3. WellRed*

      That sucks, I’m sorry. It’s time to have a chat with your manager about this. It may be that you’ll never advance further at this company. From here, I can’t say whether they have valid concerns or have you pigeonholed.

  78. AnotherSarah*

    I am wondering about LONG commutes. I’m applying for a job (faculty at a university) where, if I got the job and lived where I wanted to live, my commute would be 2.5-3.5 hours. I would only need to be on campus 2-3 days a week, though. Advice on how I might handle this, should it come to pass? I have two young kids….

    1. Fur Fir Fer*

      Don’t do it. It’s terrible. I have to go into my office once a month and have your commute, and it’s tough. I can’t imagine 2-3 days per week.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I went to college in a “city” that wasn’t that interesting to people in their 20s or their early 30s, so we had quite a few professors who commuted from NYC, even though it was several hours. Some would stay overnight or a couple of nights, and then go back to New York. If you’re planning to go there and back each day, even 2-3 days a week is a lot. You’re talking 6 hours of the day that you’re commuting. If you plan to stay there for 2-3 days, and then come back, that might be more feasible, unless you’re the primary caretaker for those two young kids (also depends on how young the young kids are).

      1. trying*

        Yes, this. Organize to stay one or two overnights; if that’s impossible, fully move. 3.5hrs x 2 per day x 3 days per week is: 7 x 3=21 hrs. That’s half a standard work week.

    3. MissBliss*

      I commute 3-4 hours a day twice a week. It’s exhausting and I’m thinking of leaving my job because of it. Part of the reason is because I’m planning to have kids and I can’t imagine trying to do so with so much of my life taken up by commuting.

    4. FashionablyEvil*

      Unless you can work out some sort of situation where you go out late one evening, stay overnight two days, and then come back the third day (and even then) that sounds really tough. Do you have a partner and/or local support network that could cover those really long days, basically indefinitely (since university faculty doesn’t tend to be a short-term gig)? That would be my key question.

    5. DrSalty*

      Sounds brutal. I personally wouldn’t do it but I know how rare faculty jobs are. Do you have a partner who is willing to step up and make it work? Particularly thinking about dealing with the kids.

      For dealing with the commute itself, I’d load on up podcasts …

    6. Head Sheep Counter*

      Without having a second apartment this sounds like it would be… rough. I wouldn’t. I’d either love the area with the university or find another opportunity.

    7. Head Sheep Counter*

      FWIW my current commute is 40 min one way and 40-60 the other way. I’ve put 9,000 miles on my car since February.

    9. academic fashion*

      FWIW, that’s above the average even for faculty commutes. I’m assuming you mean 2.5 hrs one way? I know lots of people who commute 1 hr or even 1.5 hrs one way, but I can’t imagine nearly four hours.

    10. chocolate muffins*

      I am a faculty member with this kind of commute. Here’s what I do:
      – Use public transportation and work on the way in. My brain is too tired to work on the way back so I read novels or listen to music or have phone conversations. For me personally, driving would make the commute much more stressful, and the work time in the morning is important – in some sense it makes the commute less long because that isn’t time that is being subtracted from my work time.
      – I set up my classes so that I am teaching on days when I would need to be on campus anyway. That lets me go in for two (VERY LONG) days per week but also allows me not to commute the rest of the time. Again for me personally, that is preferable to working shorter days but going in more often.
      – I make time to see people during my on-campus days so I don’t lose connections with my colleagues. Lunches, coffee meetings, etc.
      – When I first started doing this I went in two days in a row and then had the rest of the week commute-free. Now I go in on days that are not right next to each other, which I find less exhausting, because I have time in between the commuting days to recover.
      – I spend money to make my commute as easy as possible. Eg, take Uber/Lyft to the train instead of driving because parking would be stressful.
      – I have a toddler and trade kid days with my husband. On my commuting days, he is responsible for getting the toddler to daycare, picking him up, doing the entire morning and evening routine, taking care of toddler all day if daycare is closed/toddler is sick, etc. I take two other days during the week when I am not commuting, my husband has immoveable work commitments, and I am on kid duty. We split the remaining day.

      Happy to answer questions if there’s something that would be helpful to know that I am missing above. Good luck!

    11. Alex*

      Is 2.5-3.5 hours each way or combined round trip? Round trip: totally doable and normal for where I live. Having a commute that is less than one hour each way is considered a huge luxury.

      But if that’s each way….that’s a whole lot of yikes, especially with young kids. I assume you have a partner who can manage some of the kid pick ups and care (or else you wouldn’t be considering this!) but that’s still…I just wouldn’t do it. It’s fine if there’s no construction or accidents, the weather is fine and daylight is long. But what about in bad weather? Unexpected delays? The longer your commute is, the more likely it is that there will be obstacles along the way.

    12. Iñigo Sr.*

      If the children can be cared for without you for 3 days a week, I like the idea of finding a place to stay overnight near campus 1-2 nights a week. An apartment, if you can afford it? Or rent a spare room from a kind older faculty member who has a big old empty house, and wouldn’t mind a boarder a few nights a week, someone to share a cup of tea with in the evening occasionally and who mostly just wants to work quietly and sleep?

      That is the “splitting the baby” solution.

      You might be better off picking who gets the baby—this university, or that home community.
      (I guess in this metaphor, you are the baby. Not meant as an insult, I promise! On the contrary, I mean your life and well-being are precious and you deserve to be whole.)

      How important would that faculty position be for you right now? How much of a priority is it to live where you want? You would have to want to “live” there, understanding that with the job so far away, you may not get to feel like you really *live* there during the week. If the university is in a place that could be hostile to your identity…like, harassment or terrorism at your home there would be a concern, then I see the importance of living in an accepting and safe community! Or if your kids need to be in this particular community (medical issues require close proximity to a children’s hospital, or caring grandparents live next door?) then you’d understandably justify doing it for them.

      Another consideration—driving, if that would be your mode of transportation, is exhausting and also dangerous, even if you yourself drive safely and can stay alert on the long drive home—other drivers may/will not. If it’s available, though, public transit would be a game changer. Good luck to you! I hope you get the offer, at least, and get to make the choice.

    13. Bluebird*

      My current commute is 3 hrs each way. I have to be in office 2 days a week, so on those days I wake up early and drive in, get into office about an hour after my WFH/regular start time, work late, spend the night at a friend’s house, work from office the next day, and then leave a little earlier than normal to drive home. Instead of 7 hour days (normal time), I work an 8-9 hour day and a 6 hour day, and so it evens out. I’m open to renting a space with someone else who commutes, if needed.
      FWIW I don’t have kids, just a pet at home who is checked on by neighbors. For me, the satisfaction of liking my job (and the people) makes it worth it for now. I’ll also add that 90% of my meetings are while I’m in office, so my WFH days are very laid back in terms of low key pjs, actually getting work done, Target runs, etc.

  79. Fur Fir Fer*

    I recently started a new job. I forgot how tough the first few weeks are. I don’t know who’s who and so far, I don’t have much to do. Sigh. I know it will get better, but if you have any advice or encouragement, please share!

    1. CentralLuna*

      Enjoy the downtime while you can. But also never a bad idea to just poke around though folders and documents to familiarize yourself.

    2. Emperor Kuzco*

      I just went through this about 8 months ago and had the same experience, not a lot to do and feeling very uncertain. I would say just chat and get to know people more, find out what they do, etc. Especially if they’re in your department – try to see if they need or want help or seem like they’d be willing to train you on anything related to your job.

  80. Leftrightsideways*

    I’ve been at my company for almost 12 years and about four years ago I got promoted to a new position. Initially I was a little hesitant as everyone who’s ever made it to this position doesn’t last more than two years but I figured it would be a better opportunity for growth. I was doing really well until earlier this year when a bunch of coworkers quit and the work landed on me to take care of (think constantly working overtime and having deadlines every day including weekends). I’m slowly feeling burned out and constantly anxious and stressed out. I’m seeing a therapist to deal with the anxiety and I’m proactively applying for other jobs but does anyone have any tips in how to keep my sanity? I need to keep this job while I land a new one.

    1. Rick Tq*

      You need to stop killing yourself to save the business or make it easier on everyone ELSE to layer work on you instead of hiring replacements. Not meeting deadlines is your management’s problem as long as you are so understaffed.

      To preserve what is left of your mental health start practicing the Three NOs: NO more overtime. NO more weekend work, NO accepting tasks with deadlines that aren’t possible without A and B. As tasks stack up tell your manager you can do one job, not three.

  81. Annie Edison*

    How many questions am I allowed/expected to ask in a job interview?

    I know that coming prepared with some questions is a good thing, but is it possible to ask too many? I’d really like to be able to dig into work/life balance and office culture a bit, as well as asking some of the questions Allison recommends, but I’m not if asking multiple questions would be off-putting.

    (I previously worked in performing arts/music education, so most of my “interviews” thus far were more about auditioning or demonstrating teaching abilities, and I’ve never quite learned the standard interviewing norms as a result)

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Can you ask the interviewer how long the interview will last and how much time you’ll have for questions? That might help you budget out your questions. You could also jot down all your questions in order of importance to you to be sure you have time for the most important ones. I tend to ask around 5-7 questions.

    2. trying*

      How many interviews would you expect to have? In my field 2-4 is normal. 1- basic screening, the rest with various groups. I wouldn’t ask HR person, but I’d ask the people I’d be more directly working with/giving technical interviews

    3. spcepickle*

      I interview people often. I tell them at the start of the interview how many questions we will be asking and that we have an hour for the interview. Our goal is that the average person takes 40 min to answer the questions we ask with the rest of the time for the interviewee to ask questions.
      If they don’t tell you a time line at the start of the interview you can ask, that will help you budget your response time as well. I would prioritize your questions with the idea that if you have the time left your interviewer(s) should spend no more than 15 min answering your questions after a first interview.
      If there are more interviews you can ask more questions. If you are offered the position, that is when you can dig in.

  82. Somehow I Manage*

    I couldn’t find the celebration post to reply to, but had to share this. Not really work-related but somewhat, because it was a conversation with a coworker. I just helped a young coworker write the speech he’s giving as a best man tomorrow. His manager had suggested that he come talk to me because I’m comfortable with, and good at, public speaking. And I gave him suggestions that he was excited about. I’m really looking forward to hearing how it goes on Monday!

    Also, it is work related because now I’m thinking about a side hustle. :)

  83. Anonymous cat*

    Calling Space Bird!

    Do you have any more stories of the dysfunctional flea market? I actually LOLed at Bearnice!

  84. Notboss*

    New job while pregnant advice needed. I was just offered and accepted a job in state government (remote, knowledge-worker) after spending almost two years applying and interviewing for jobs to try to get out of my current role, where I’m burnt out. The same day I was offered the job, I found out I’m pregnant. I didn’t mention it when accepting because I don’t have an offer letter and staying at my current job is not an option–I was getting to the point where I would quit without another job lined up. The new job is represented by a union, and I’ve looked through their contract. I know I wouldn’t qualify for FML because I won’t have been there for a year by the time I deliver, and I wouldn’t qualify for parental leave either. The job pays so much more than my current job that even if I were unpaid for three months, I would be making more than my current role, but I’m not sure if I would even be allowed to take that time off. I know people start new jobs while pregnant, and I’m wondering… how? Frankly, I’m scared. I’ll need to be making a good impression, and I was so sick for my first pregnancy until like week 15, and I currently feel like garbage. When I went back to work after three months of maternity leave, I was physically and mentally a disaster. I luckily worked somewhere really understanding, but I don’t know how it will be different working for government. My future supervisor seems like a nice, normal person and not a micromanager, but I’m not sure how much flexibility I can get, considering bureaucracy. (If it helps, I work in a progressive state that prides itself on family-positive policies.) I’m not a “girlboss” or “supermom” who can do it all, and I’m really, really worried about my capabilities. 

    1. ferrina*

      You can do it.

      I started a new job while pregnant (albeit 2nd trimester). New jobs are always exciting and draining, and people expect you to be a little overwhelmed but roll with it. One of the nice things is that they don’t know you, so if they are already impressed by you when you are at 70% of your best, you’re going to be fine. They don’t know that you’re operating at 70%- they just know that they are sufficiently happy with how you are doing.

    2. BellyButton*

      Congratulations! At least being remote it will hopefully be easier to deal with all the morning sickness and other icks those first few months. As far as length of time off, look at your employee handbook, if they give 12 weeks off, even if you are unpaid you get that 12 weeks and your state will also have a minimum required time off. Good luck!

    3. spcepickle*

      FMLA is bare minimum required by law, your employer can offer more. I work for the state of Washington and twice now I have had people who report to me go on “FMLA” (really just approved time off) who have been employed with us for less than a year. We didn’t even blink at the request. This is a time when bureaucracy actually helps, because there is already a policy in place and the government is so scared of being accused of discriminations they will follow it for everyone. Also state governments are so big they can handle one person being out for an extended period of time. It is also worth asking your HR about shared leave – so you can take as much paid leave as possible even if it is not an actual maternity leave. (Also if you happen to live in Washington – the state will pay some of your salary for some of your FMLA I think even if you change employers because you have been employed).

      It is up to you to disclose when you are ready and comfortable, but I would highly encourage you to find allies as soon as possible. People always talk, but I have found they are way more willing to cut you slack if there is a reason and anyone who has been pregnant or watched anyone else be pregnant knows how draining it is. Also good employers hire for the long run, not for this moment. While this moment may not be your best at work, you were still the best candidate and will be an asset in the long run.

      The only thing you should be aware of – if you have any kind of probationary period (for us it is one year) any unpaid time does not count towards that. I am not sure if that is standard everywhere but it might be worth asking.

      You got this!

    4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Once you have the written offer and signed that, I suggest telling the HM specifically that you found you were pregnant on the day you had the verbal offer. Say (approx) when you will need the 3 months leave and fully accept it may be unpaid. She legally can’t rescind the offer and it sounds like you need the peace of mind to know what you can take.

  85. Agile librarian*

    This is a query for anyone who is familiar with Agile. What do Scrum Masters do with their time? Our IT team have recently moved to Agile, specifically SaFe Agile, and as I liaise with them on a lot of projects I am now a trained Product Owner of an Agile team alongside my existing full time job of being a systems librarian. As well as being PO, I line manage, run enquiries, provide expertise in a number of specialist areas, and also chair two working groups. I had a full.tike.load well before Agile came along.

    The team also has a Scrum Master who scrums for two teams and is a grade above me, but I just can’t understand how that is a *full time* job. Although the admin and mechanisms of Agile are incredibly cumbersome and time consuming, I can’t believe they take up a full working week. Perhaps I’m jealous that I have had another job added to my load while they are paid more and seem to have a fairly cushy time. My manager is the same grade as the SM and runs four services, writes strategies, and line manages a whole team so perhaps part of this is a difference between the perceived value of IT work versus Library work (in fact I know it is) but still. What does he do all day? Is there something I’m missing?

    1. I Have RBF*

      IMO, professional Scrum Master is an oxymoron. What they really need to be is a Project Manager who does “Scrum Master” as part of managing a project. OTOH, I hate scrum except when it is used for greenfield software development, so I will admit I am biased. I consider what “Scrum Masters” do all day is nag other people and throw extra process into actually getting work done.

      My opinion is not orthodox in tech.

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Here’s the thing, Product Owner is also a full time job at a lot of places. I don’t have an answer to your question, but this sounds a lot it’s time to push back on the unrealistic workload.

    3. Scrummaster*

      At many places scrummaster us a role someone takes on top of their day job. I’ve been a scrummaster for my team before.

      Product owner == product manager
      scrummaster == project manager

      Both roles can be part time or full time, both can be part of multiple agile teams, etc.

  86. Kelsi*

    I have a super low stakes one, but it’s really been bugging me lately.

    I work in a place where the culture is very friendly—most people greet the folks they pass on their way to their desks in the morning, say hello to people when they go to a part of the building they haven’t been to yet today, say goodnight on leaving. The way the office is laid out, this isn’t SUPER disruptive–you’re not constantly being interrupted or anything.

    Also, I’ve been here for twenty years, so I am pretty friendly with everyone even though I’m an introvert.

    There is a newish employee (not like, SUPER new–she’s been here for a few months) that just…does not engage with me at all, to the point that I can’t imagine it’s not personal, but I can’t figure out why it would be or what I have done when we really haven’t interacted beyond general initial pleasantries.

    We’re both part of a group of three desks along a wall, with one person between us. She arrives before both me and the other person–he and I come in around the same time. Both of us come in from the direction where we pass her desk–she never responds to my “good morning, Jane!” but always either greets our third person first or responds to his greeting. She also greets and responds to various other people throughout the morning. When she leaves, she passes both our desks, and says goodbye to him but not to me (including not responding when I say goodbye as she passes). She also says goodbye to all the people at the block of desks behind us, usually individually.

    She is friendly and polite when I directly address her in a way she can’t ignore (like when I have to ask her a work-related question), but just…fully ignores my greetings, and does not ever make small talk with me even when she is joining conversations I’m a part of.

    It’s not actually affecting my work, it’s just really bumming me out! And she’s friendly and polite enough when we do have to speak that I wasn’t sure if I was imagining it for a long time–but at this point the omission is so obvious I have to believe it’s intentional.

    I guess I don’t even know what I’m asking–it’s not really affecting my work at all since we are not in overlapping spheres and she’s not being rude or hostile, there’s not necessarily anything to do about it. Maybe just “how do I convince myself to stop feeling upset about this?” I don’t even usually care if someone doesn’t do/respond to morning greetings! I think it’s more just that she seems to be an effusive, warm person with everyone else, and consistently skips over addressing or acknowledging me.

    1. BellyButton*

      I would keep doing what you are doing, other people notice it, and it makes her look bad, not you. Try to remind yourself of that “her behavior is a reflection of her, not me” every time you start feeling bad, just repeat that over and over until it sinks in.

    2. WellRed*

      That would bug me, too! But, these days, I also think how exhausting it must be to studiously ignore others, or be angry at everything all the time. Small comfort, but she’s the oddball here, not you.

    3. Think OUTSIDE the box because the cat is already IN the box*

      Definitely agree with the advice for you to continue to be as friendly as usual. Both people I’ve had this sort of issue with absolutely look like assholes to everyone around us when they are clearly pretending I don’t exist. One person gave up, the other one is still going strong with refusing to acknowledge me – 15 years later.

  87. Procedure Publisher*

    When I checked my email this morning, three rejections for jobs that I applied to were there. One of the rejections was for a job that I thought I would get an interview for. I had applied to this company for a similar position in a different department that I was able to make it to the final interview stage before being rejected. I suspect my resume this time around didn’t show that I met their basic qualifications.

  88. BonjourHello*

    What is your definition of referring someone to a job?

    I am not amused by a trend in job referral at least in tech: Job seekers ask someone from the company (that they don’t know well) to submit their job application so that they have a better chance to be seen. After my company posts a new job, I got random LinkedIn connection requests or 2nd degree connections asking me to refer them to the job. I ignore those requests or politely decline the request because I have nothing to say about their work.

    Then I discovered some Discord servers and website that let people access a professional network for job referrals. Say you work for a well-known company. You would get paid if you refer someone to a job successfully. I told my HR about the “referral without knowing you” trend. HR said that such referrals don’t add value to the job application and add more work on HR’s end.

    I afraid that I am too old school not to dismiss such a definition of job referral. Thoughts and observations?

    1. WoodswomanWrites*

      I’m with you on this. I don’t refer anyone I haven’t personally worked with. As it happens, I just put in a word to a hiring manager for a former colleague who has submitted their application for a job. I can vouch for the colleague’s excellent work myself.

    2. Rick Tq*

      The plague of strangers asking for a job referral because of where I work was at least part of the reason I deleted my LinkedIn account. I never had much of a job-related social media presence and this kind of thing was the final straw.

    3. epizeugma*

      Some internal hiring systems actually offer two types of referrals now, one for personal referrals (where you can attach the person’s resume, write a letter of recommendation, etc) and one for “social media referral links” for things like posting on LinkedIn, “Hey my company is hiring in X department, check out the posting here.”

      I get random solicitations for referrals from members of a professional org I am part of, and I send them the social media referral link.

      1. BonjourHello*

        Gosh, the “social media referral links” decreases the awkwardness on the employee’s end, but may be hiding the truth if the applications would be prioritized. :(

  89. I Have RBF*

    So, I just had to try to do a knowledge transfer with someone whose job was being eliminated, but they didn’t know it – I was supposedly training to be their backup. Supposedly I had a week and a half to do this, but do to various issues (not of my making), I only got three days. We didn’t get to everything. I feel really bad how the whole thing played out. Yes, I know it wasn’t my decision, but being asked to essentially befriend someone in order to take over their job felt… icky. What are other people’s thoughts on this?

      1. I Have RBF*

        I agree that someone in the process was a jerk. I suspect it wasn’t my direct chain of command. I still get to deal with the new role stuff next week, so I think I’ll find out where the problem came from to start with.

        I smell some really stinky politics, quite frankly. I think my great-grand boss is probably collecting paper on someone while trying to course correct an entire dysfunctional sub-organization.

        But man, it felt shitty to be used as an assistant hatchet person.

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      The biggest problem I see here is that you knew about the impending termination. That’s not cool. It makes sense that your org would want someone trained on this person’s work (although… why didn’t they already have a backup for this role? Unexpected things happen all the time), but telling you that you’re secretly going to be taking over the work after they’re laid off/fired? Ick.

  90. MapleLibrarian*

    Hi all!

    I’ll be applying for a job at one of my dream employers soon. The job is also well suited to me. Part of the ad says that knowledge of what I wrote my Masters thesis on is desirable. Right now I don’t have the title of the thesis listed on my resume. Should I include it for this job?

    1. Cordelia*

      yes, why wouldn’t you? it’s evidence that you have knowledge of the thing they want you to have knowledge of..

      1. WellRed*

        Is listing thesis subjects normal in your industry? If not, I’d mention it in cover letter instead. Happy to be told I’m wrong, though.

        1. MapleLibrarian*

          I’m not sure. This is the first job where anything more then me having “Oct. 2023. MA, History, Univ. of X” on my resume is related to the job.

        2. Mad Harry Crewe*

          I would put it in your cover letter. You’ll be able to emphasize it a lot more clearly and not rely on whoever’s processing applications to (1) read that carefully and (2) make the connection between your thesis title and the role. *You* know they’re connected – be explicit about that connection for the people you’re applying to.

    2. trying*

      I don’t know that I would put the title, but I’d definitely work in a paragraph in the cover letter sbout what you studied. I’d also expand in your resume about the things you learned in your masters that are relevant

  91. hypoglycemic rage*

    hi! this is not something I can do anything about, I just am wondering what other people think.

    my grandboss (we work at a law firm, grandboss is the head of admin) says we should be answering the phones on the first ring, basically no exceptions. we have walkies that we take when we’re away from the desk, and we’re still expected to answer on the first ring. apparently my boss said that she (grandboss) noticed that the phones were ringing “too often” so my boss listened and agreed. we have assigned phone times – one person answers the phone in the morning, another in the afternoon. if we need the other to cover, we’re able to do that. if we’re the only person here, it gets even trickier.

    my boss said that we’re the first point of contact for people, who may be new clients. if we don’t answer on the first ring, that might make people wonder if we’re here. even if we’re mid-conversation with someone, we’re expected to bow out and answer the phone.

    does this seem odd to anyone else? I’ve worked a lot of customer-facing jobs in my lifetime, and nobody has ever commented on how fast the phone is answered. obviously if we were letting it ring and ring and ring, that would be one thing. but I don’t think letting it ring for a couple is going to kill anyone. sometimes it takes a ring to stop what we’re doing, or to get the walkie out of our pocket (I keep it in my back pocket if I have jeans on). sometimes I’m setting up a conference room for an event and again, it takes a minute, especially if I have my hands full.

    I guess I’m asking, again, if this is odd to anyone else. I’ve been told a few times to answer the phone on the first ring. I try to mention the examples I gave above, but was more or less brushed off.

    1. Maryn*

      That seems very off to me. I worked customer service, then admin for attorneys, and the gold standard was to pick up in the first three rings and never to leave someone on hold for more than sixty seconds.

      Granted, this was some time ago, but picking up on the first ring seems fully ridiculous.

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        thank you, I was hoping someone else would also think this is ridiculous! again, I won’t let the phone ring and ring, but sometimes it’s just not possible to answer on the first one.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If I were to notice that my call was picked up on the first ring (which is arguably questionable), my actual thought would be that you were not busy and would wonder why y’all were sitting around the office waiting to pounce on the phone and is that a sign that I should look for an office that has more business. Heh.

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        ….this is a valid point I had not considered!!! but maybe that’s also a place that insists employees answer the phone on the first ring. ;) most of the time, that isn’t possible. second ring, way more doable. first, not so much (at least not as much as admin wants).

    3. Educator*

      If people are choosing their lawyers based on whether it takes one ring or three for their staff to answer the phone, they…are not very good at evaluating lawyers. Could the actual problem be that your grandboss hates the ringing? Any chance you could get headsets so the ringing is only audible to the person on phone duty?

      1. Hypoglycemic rage*

        Right? Like if this was someone’s SOLE determination, that’s not a great sign. (And also, I don’t think that responsibility should be on me, as an admin.)

        But I don’t know if it’s because my grand boss hates the ringing. I don’t think headsets would be possible – because I know the firm won’t want to pay for them, and our phones are also pretty old. But I like that idea!!!

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Ditto here – three rings. At the art store I used to work for, we weren’t supposed to pick up before three rings, so the owner could see the caller ID and decide if he wanted to answer.

      2. Hypoglycemic rage*

        I have never had the number of rings before we answer the phone brought up before. But I used to do a lot of work in libraries and our primary goal there was in person interaction – so if the phone rang and we happened to be assisting somebody, we would let it go to voicemail. It wasn’t a big deal. We would check the voicemail and call them back when we could. I would normally think this is something I had to get used to at this job, because now the phone is our first priority. But the expectation is a lot….

        And obviously I still think that expecting us to answer on the first ring is ridiculous.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Yeah, but you’re not in a library now — you need to be cognisant of what your boss needs. We can say first few rings are fine, but in their office, your boss gets to set the standards.

    5. GythaOgden*

      Not on the absolute first ring, no, but you should generally be prompt if you’re at your desk, and your boss gets to set the specific parameters for your role in their office; we can’t override their needs or what they think should be being done in their office.

      A ringing phone can be annoying to others as well as leaving a customer or client waiting, so if you’re asked to prioritise the phone over other things, even when talking to your boss themselves, it’s a good idea to get it on that first ring.

      1. Hypoglycemic rage*

        Right – I do understand that this is something I can’t change. I wasn’t looking for advice on how to do that, nor was I thinking I could do differently. I was just trying to see if this first ring standard was weird to anyone else (which it sounds like it is).

        1. The Unionizer Bunny*

          [pivots from planned “how to auto-answer on first ring and inadvertently breach privilege before attorney’s mouth catches up with his ears” response]

          There are virtual receptionists who work from home operating call centers for law firms. They aren’t attorneys and can’t even take any notes on the caller’s issue, they just field calls to set up appointments. Unscheduled calls often aren’t a thing. But with an advanced enough call center, they can send a text while on the phone with you, and the attorney will get a heads-up that they might be transferring a call fairly soon.

          Transparency: pass 2, comment 7/9

  92. Second Breakfast*

    Now that I am actively job searching, I find myself saving questions up for these Friday posts! Here are two cover letter questions I would love to get feedback on.

    1. Salutations
    Usually I start my letters with “Dear Hiring Manager,” but right now I am working on one where I know the manager’s name thanks to LinkedIn. Should I instead use her name? “Dear Katherine Janeway?” “Dear Ms. Janeway?” (not a fan of that because I don’t want to assume pronouns) “Dear Katherine Janeway and team?” I suspect part of my hesitation here is that it all reads very formal for an email.

    2. Acknowledging a resume gap
    I’m returning to work after a six year pause as a stay-at-home mom. My daughter was a micro preemie and was too medically fragile for daycare during her younger years. I have been saying things like, “I left Old Job in 2018 after my daughter’s premature birth. Now that she is a healthy kindergartner, I am excited to restart my career at Teapots Inc.” However, my sister pointed out that employers might worry I’ll miss a lot of work due to having a young child with a complicated medical history. I could use vaguer language like “caregiving obligations,” but that doesn’t feel sufficient for such a long pause. What do you guys think?

    1. spcepickle*

      I like hiring committee – I hire often, and the number of letters I get addressed to the wrong name amuses me. We list an HR contact on the website, but I am the “hiring manager”. So many people put the HR name on the cover letter. The only time I give negative points because of the salutation is the use Sir, Gentleman, or in some other way assuming I am a dude.

      For your resume gap – I would say you took time off for family care. Because the why of the gap is not important and you want to give as much space to the what you can bring to the job now part of the letter.

    2. Educator*

      As a hiring manager, I really hate the mental gymnastics of knowing something that I cannot consider in the hiring process. I think I do it better than most, but it is hard! Please save well-intentioned folks like me the trouble and don’t talk about your family, especially young children, until after you have an offer. “A family situation that has now resolved” would be the right level of detail for me.

      And yeah, address the hiring committee. That advice to try to find the hiring manager’s name is from the era before we all realized that one person making hiring decisions was much more likely to be bias than a group sharing perspectives. These days, a lot of people are likely to see your letter if things go well.

    3. WoodswomanWrites*

      I say hiring committee if I don’t know the name of the hiring manager. But if I have found the hiring manager’s name, it’s almost certainly referenced somewhere online. I then look at multiple examples. If they all align with the same pronouns, I select Ms. or Mr.

    4. The Prettiest Curse*

      It’s a very common thing for mums not to look for work outside the home until their youngest kid is in school, so I would just say family or caregiving obligations and they will probably just assume that you were taking time out to care for a child. Unfortunately, there are companies who won’t hire people based on whether they think their health insurance will be expensive or they will need to take time off for appointments, even though that’s incredibly shady. Best of luck with your job search!

    5. RagingADHD*

      “After taking a few years off for family obligations…”

      Taking that amount of time off for kids is so, so, so, so normal, and any minimally decent employer is not going to think twice about it. You really don’t need to wordsmith it or give extra reasons.

      The initial screener just wants to know that you weren’t like, a fugitive from justice or hiding a job where you did something horrible and got fired for it.

    6. GythaOgden*

      Yeah, no-one would bat an eyelid over you having been a stay at home mum. I think it’s also more and more recognised that people will have gaps due to family commitments. I wouldn’t necessarily elaborate on it, but just something like ‘I am returning to work after having been a stay at home parent’; my sister and I both had healthy births and my mum only chose to go back to full time work once we were both at school. ISTM that it’s more common for women in the US to stay home with the kids than it is in the UK, even with our generous maternity leave policies. So it’s not even the case you have to mention your child’s health situation because it’s just so routine.

      And WRT your daughter, my colleague had a daughter born very premature who is now a healthy and very lovely eight year old, so just sending you and yours a bit of love and best wishes for getting back into the workplace.

  93. WoodswomanWrites*

    My amazing co-worker will find out today if she got another job today and I really want her to stay and also understand if she can’t. She applied for that role when she was upset with our leadership about our internal structure, and otherwise would want to stay. The role she applied for is her former job that she left because her position at that time was temporary, and they gave her glowing recommendations.

    It will be a big deal if she leaves, because she’s in a niche role that few people have skills in plus she’s exceptional at it. We had to do a second search to find her a year ago. And she’s just a wonderful human to have on our team.

    We work together closely and she told me how she loves the work and our nonprofit’s mission and would love to stay if her ideas about our reporting structure were accepted. And they’re great, and have support from others on our team, but we have a brand new division head and the CEO understandably doesn’t want to mess with that person’s authority in their first three weeks. (All of this has less impact on me based on my job responsibilities.)

    The colleague part of me told her I hope she’ll stay, and the friend part of me told her I support her in being happy at work even if that’s another job. I know this is just part of being in the working world, but it’s still tough.

  94. Demoted and Doubting*

    I work for a small business that was recently sold to a new owner. Before the sale, I was the center manager. The previous owners had faced significant health challenges, with the husband eventually passing away from cancer. During that time, I stepped up to run the center, even though I had no prior experience in that role. Previously, I had only managed the instructors and students, so it was a big learning curve for me. Unfortunately, I didn’t receive much training from the former owner, but after a year, I managed to stabilize the center’s operations, growing our client base by 2 to 5 accounts per month.

    When the new owner took over, he demoted me to my previous role, stating that he wanted me to continue running the center as I had been, but without the title or pay. I accepted because I felt I didn’t have a choice—it was that or lose my job. I was just grateful to still have an income.

    However, the owner has now hired someone else to take on my role, and I’m unsure of what to do. I feel like my time at the company is limited and that he may be preparing to let me go. Am I misinterpreting the situation, or is there something I should be doing to address this?

    1. Pay no attention...*

      When you say someone else to take on your role… you mean running the center, not the previous role of what you were doing before you stepped up to run the center? Do you feel that he wants you to go back to what your title and pay indicate — managing instructors and students? Does the new hire have higher education and more experience in running businesses? I wouldn’t immediately jump to thinking he’s letting you go, but if you want to get back to the title and pay of running a center, you will probably need to leave.

      1. Demoted and Doubting*

        Hi! I recently found out that the new hire, who’s now taking on the role I was handling, doesn’t have any business or sales experience. She has a bachelor’s degree in English literature and was a former teacher, but nothing in her background suggests she has experience running a business or sales. It feels strange to me because the new owner keeps bouncing between different plans—one moment he’s telling me I failed and that I’m lucky he hasn’t replaced me, and the next, he’s saying he wants me to manage the students and instructors, but not the sales. It’s all very convoluted, and I’m honestly not sure if talking to him will give me any clarity at this point.

        1. Educator*

          I found running a business very easy after running a classroom. So much less chaos, same organizational and management skills.

          I would focus not on her, but on your lack of clarity about your own role. I would frame it as “I want to make sure I am contributing to your vision for [company’s] success, and I hope we can talk about what that looks like. What are my top priorities right now? What will they be three months from now?”

          1. Demoted and Doubting*

            The issue isn’t with the new hire herself—I don’t mind her joining the team. What’s really bothering me is the lack of transparency and the constant switching of plans. One moment, the new owner is going in one direction, then the next, he’s saying I’ve failed and that I’m lucky not to be replaced. But then he turns around and says he wants me managing the students and instructors, not focusing on sales. It’s all very convoluted, and honestly, I’m not sure that talking to him will even give me answers at this point.

            I also have a written job description that the new owner edited, but now he’s expecting even more from me. Whenever I ask for clarification, he just shrugs it off or says things like, “You know this is a small business; I can’t afford to spell everything out for you,” or tries to guilt me about how low profitable we are. It’s really confusing, and I’m not sure how to move forward in such a disorganized environment.

        2. Pay no attention...*

          For your own mental health, you should find something else. This sounds like a toxic boss and you shouldn’t trust what he says, even if you manage to talk to him trying to get clarity. I would use the skills and experience you gained from taking over on your cover letter and resume instead of accepting the demotion much longer — the longer you stay demoted, the harder it will be to move back up.

          1. Demoted and Doubting*

            The issue is I’m in university right now. Not many places will work with my schedule. When I was demoted I made sure to get my new job description in writing, but now he is expecting me to do more than that description. I has me all turned around. I know I should be advocating for myself and trying to get a better job, and I’m applying. But the new owner has just crushed my confidence.

            1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

              He sounds a bully flailing around in chaos. It genuinely is him, not you. Keep reminding yourself of this while you hunt for something better.
              This certainly doesn’t sound like a career job you should continue after uni, so don’t invest emotional energy or feel hurt about demotion, so long as you get paid the same.

              BUT it does sound like he wants rid of you – maybe because of the schedule that you need or because you don’t yet have your degree? – so do accelerate the job hunt.

              Prioritise your uni course and don’t let his demands interfere with this: if he demands a schedule that doesn’t fit, or too many hours, then refuse, because this job is then no longer of use to you.

        3. epizeugma*

          A boss who says “you failed and you’re lucky I haven’t fired you yet” is not a kind or reasonable person and that kind of hostile treatment will break your spirit down. It’s time for strenuous job-searching.

  95. KT*

    I took over a huge ongoing project for my boss that has generated $60k so far that will require about 10 hours of my time a week…i got a .25 raise.

    I am trying to be thankful, because every little bit helps…but once you realize it’s only $20 a paycheck it’s a bit of a stab to my heart.

    Just kinda venting I guess, idk.

    1. I Have RBF*

      Holy cheapskates Batman! IOTW, damned with faint praise.

      Start looking for people a little closer to reality.

    3. Jade*

      10 hours work for $20? That’s insulting. I don t even care what you do, 10 hours of your labour is worth more than $20. Your company is lucky that this will give you a nice big project on your resume that you can convert into a different, higher paying job afterwards, otherwise I’d be advising you to walk now. I’m sure they’re not trying to insult you and they simply haven’t thought it through in those terms, but the facts remain nevertheless. There’s plenty of people out there who’ll value your work at higher than $2 an hour. I hope you find them soon.

        1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          but for 10 hours extra per week, so it is $2 per hour for each of those hours

          1. Educator*

            That’s…not how salaried jobs work. For this to be legal, OP has to be salaried and exempt, or, if they are non-exempt, either working less than full time originally or reallocating their existing full time hours to time to this project.

    4. My Brain is Exploding*

      Since KT hasn’t replied, I understood this as there will be no extra hours with this project, but 10 hours of the 40 regular hours will now be devoted to the project. The .25/hour raise over 40 hours/week = $10, so KT must be getting paid every two weeks.

      1. KT*

        This one. If anyone checks back. Just frustrating because it requires me to juggle my other responsibilities so much more…

  96. JustaTech*

    Has anyone ever successfully pushed back when management (one person specifically) decides to unilaterally change our unspoken working hours to be 1) at least an hour later than what most people’s hours have been for going on 15 years, and 2) after everyone with kids has to leave to go pick up their kids from school/after school/ daycare.

    Almost everyone in my department has tended to be early-start people (we’re salaried with no set work hours), for reasons of commute, personality and technical needs. Almost everyone is in by 8, and most people do some more work in the evenings from home, in addition to our sporadic on-site weekend work.

    But now the most senior person in the department has decided that he’s going to measure productivity by “who’s car is in the parking lot at 5:30” (instead of, you know, are we getting our work done).
    Can we use parental status (as in, I must pick up my child from school or the police will be called) as a way to push back on this?

    (I would also want to push back for a million other reasons including commute and also “I’m more productive before 8 than I am after 4”, but this feels like the closest to an HR reason.)

    I am so frustrated at this point I am tempted to go get my toddler from school and come back to work and let them be (safely) chaotic just to show the Big Boss that there is a *reason* why I have left for the day.

    1. Pay no attention...*

      If you’re in the U.S. with our attitudes about child care and parental leave, etc., I wouldn’t think HR will do anything for you if you try to push back. Limitations of child care are not generally something an employer has to work around. Getting your toddler and bringing them back to the office is more likely to get you fired than teach the boss a lesson. The new hours might be his way of reducing the staff to people who fit his vision of what the office should look like.

      2. Alex*

        Yeah I would agree with this. Parental status is definitely not respected–especially by people like this–so I wouldn’t use that “card.”

        I doubt that this isn’t the only way he is a bad manager. I’d start looking for a new job.

    2. Educator*

      I think parental status is a red herring here–the issue is that you have a manager who does not know how to evaluate productivity. Can you (and your fellow aggrieved workers) do some managing up? Can you all start a campaign of making sure he knows what you have accomplished? Start using some sort of task tracking software? Casually brag about your metrics? He may be a true fool and none of this will help, but if he is just trying to make sure everyone is committed to the work even when he cannot see it, more transparency might help.

      2. RagingADHD*

        Yeah, I think showing your actual productivity is a good way to go. Also mentioning things like time management – are the people whose car is still there at 5:30 just taking longer to do their work?

    4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      He sounds like he values only presenteeism and is a late riser. Also a tunnel-viewed incompetent who shouldn’t be a manager, but you can’t change that.
      Can you and your coworkers all lobby for him to evaluate cars in the lot EITHER at 8am or after 5:30pm? Try explaining to him that you are an early bird department who does your best work on this schedule. If that doesn’t work, then try going to his boss to present this pov – childcare won’t interest the business, so maybe don’t mention that, but your grandboss should be interested in maintaining productivity.

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I mean that for each person he notes either car at 8:30am or at 5:30pm. An idiotic way to measure work, but at least it would fit better with how you actually work than just counting at 5;30.

      btw, does noone walk, car-share, cycle, or use public transport to your work?
      For all my jobs, most coworkers would have been one or the other of these.

    1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      Thank you for sharing! I’m the personality type that likes taking these quizzes / tests, and they can be a starting place, but some need to be taken with the entire shaker of salt.

      1. GythaOgden*

        The best one I’ve seen evaluates the entire team on a large range of variables, and it turned out that we were one of the few teams the instructor had seen where personality and skills were evenly distributed across the entire department. That’s quite a good use, because a boss worth their salt would then actively look to plug any gaps, and in fact that was what mine had done as two new hires attended the session with us before they officially started work.

        My litmus test is personally, can you take a TV show cast and map it on to the department? It sounds a bit odd, but my reasoning is this: a well-written show has a range of characters without too much duplication. (The ur-example is commedia dell’arte, that is, Pierrot, Columbina, Pantalone, Harlequin etc.) The writers want to make sure each member of the ensemble has their part to play in the drama; it’s why in Red Dwarf, they dispensed with the part of Holly for seasons 6 and 7 because they already had the character of Kryten and struggled to write enough dialogue for two robotic/AI characters, relegating Holly to a bit part and then eliminating her until they could work out ways in which to use a computer character in different settings from a robot.

        Seeing your colleagues as a bundle of traits can feel reductive, because everyone is an individual, but group dynamics are actually very consistent. My previous team worked well together because we were three very different people and each fulfilled a specific role. When I left and wasn’t replaced, I think their ability to dot all the is and cross all the ts was compromised, because I’d always been the team Guacamole Bob, while my supervisor was Rosie the Riveter and my co-receptionist Mother Goose. (And yeah, GB is sometimes needed. We ran the department figures on Thursday and my boss was very nervous because even only five months in to the financial year we were outstripping our budget. It won’t result in closer scrutiny of our avocado-based condiment allowance, but sometimes you need that person in the corner going ‘hold on a minute, maybe we should order brass monkeys rather than gold gorillas’.)

        Good team composition means looking for a variety of perspectives and outlooks so that someone’s weaknesses are balanced by someone else’s strengths. And yeah, I got a bit embarrassed when watching a really stupid old British comedy and realising that the characters — who were always indulging in really stupid slapstick fights — looked and acted like two of my male colleagues. My two colleagues are awesome people and don’t hit each other with frying pans, but it just gave me insight into (a) what made the comedy so hilarious — two very different people nevertheless trying to get along as flatmates — and (b) what makes the working relationship between those two real guys so brilliant (each one can call the other out on issues arising with their work).

        And my family dynamics were illuminated by realising that we were four individuals, all on the –TJ side of the MBTI, but all with different combinations of I/E and N/S. It made it clear to me why we were all so earnest with each other, why we can be very dogmatic and strait-laced, why perhaps it took a while for me and my sister to learn that my domineering parents weren’t the be all and end all of life, and how to take our collective feet off the gas and mellow out a little bit so we could remain on good terms into adulthood. (My husband’s death tipped a lot of those Ts towards Fs.) I’m undergoing therapy and finding it easier to read and anticipate others through those lettered expectations. Some people are harder to evaluate than others but it’s really useful to have at least a model to work with (it’s my analytical -NT- dynamic showing up there too!).

        So with workplace analyses it’s not necessarily useful to just analyse yourself in a vacuum or use a blunt instrument like MBTI, but when you have a team dynamic that needs analysing and/or fixing, it can be really useful to stand back and look at it in earnest and see what needs to be added (or occasionally subtracted :(…) to bring the team back into functionality.

        1. Lurker*

          That sounds really interesting, thanks for sharing! I agree that these tests would be more useful in the context you describe.

      2. Lurker*

        You’re welcome! I also like taking these quizzes for fun, but workplaces need to be careful/thoughtful with how they apply them to their employees.

  98. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

    If you have a “useless” liberal arts degree, or work in an entirely different field than what you originally studied, how did you improve your mental outlook regarding wasting time, money, or feeling worthless?
    I chose my college major based on personal interests and unfortunately believed it when I was told employers would value my research, writing, and critical thinking / problem solving skills. That was 15 years ago, and I’ve managed to get a whopping total of two interviews for jobs that actually required Bachelor’s degrees in all that time. In Texas, it was actually rather common for me to be insulted for having one (or at least the university it came from) during interviews. My mental health is obviously in a bad place right now, but the above has been contributing significantly more than usual to that this year. (A degree wasn’t at all necessary to the job I just walked away from, and I wouldn’t have expected my compensation to reflect having one. However, this was the first time that prior experience, even in the same role, didn’t matter either.)

    1. Alex*

      I used to feel like this. I hated my degrees and didn’t even want to look at them. They made me feel awful.

      But, my mental health was in a bad place, as you say yours is. Rather than trying to fix what you are perceiving to be the problem (the lack of value of the degrees), I’d challenge you to try to fix your mental health *first*. Because this is an outlook problem, and therefore a mental health problem.

      The reality is I fixed my problem with medication. And time. And being in a job that I don’t hate. (They came in that order.) Once those things were in place, I could reflect more positively on what I did get out of my degrees, or even just not feel as bad about not “using” them the way they are “supposed” to be used. Time passes. These things hurt less and matter less. You’ll get there.

    2. Educator*

      My liberal arts degree has been essential to my work, but it also helped shape who I am as a person. I understand the world around me and am able to contribute to it because of those research, writing, thinking, and problem solving skills. I spot nonsense faster. I know how to read and reflect well. I contribute to conversations and can use words to get what I want. I am an activist in my community. People treat education as a means to employment now, but if you go back a few hundred years, a liberal arts education was about making good people and leaders. Fight the capitalist mindset–the value of your degree is not determined by your work history, but by your inherent worth as a thoughtful human being.

    3. Maggie*

      I’ve never had a job that required having a degree despite having a degree. It doesn’t bother me because getting the degree, learning/growing, and the whole college experience feel worth it to me, just to have had that experience. I guess that’s how I see it. If people are being rude about the institution you graduated from and the jobs don’t require degrees you could just take it off?

    4. ThatOtherClare*

      Anyone says your degree is useless, kick ’em in the shins! Not literally, but no wonder your mental health has taken a blow if you’re surrounded by people who think it’s appropriate to insult you about your favourite topic; the thing you’re so passionate about that you devoted years of your life to studying it. That sounds pretty miserable to me.

      If you’re stuck with people who think you’re worthless you’re going to feel worthless. That’s not your fault. It’s not caused by your brain or by something you’re doing wrong. You’re being a normal, logical human being by believing what society around you is saying. You’d be mad not to. Unfortunately the society around you is full of gaslighting assholes who are willing to imply that an earnest, hard working, honest, articulate, polite and thoughtful person like yourself can be worthless.

      No need to ‘improve your outlook’ into not feeling crap. The crap feeling is your brain’s warning siren blaring at you ‘DANGER DANGER! This is not a drill. Unsafe environment! Evacuate NOW. Repeat, evacuate NOW.’

      I know you can’t believe me at the moment, but there are people our there who will think that you, your degree, and all your other favourite things are brilliant and awesome and fun. I promise. You’ll find them, and in the beginning you won’t believe them, because you’ve been handed a huge steaming pile of evidence that you suck, and a few tiny drops to counterbalance that. And you’ll still feel depressed. Then after a little while, they’ll give you more evidence. And more. And more. And there will be no more evidence that you suck, because it’s not true and it never was, and slowly…, slowly…, then quickly all at once the scales will tip in the other direction. The new evidence will rush in like a flood and clear all the old crap away and you’ll somehow feel physically lighter, as well as mentally. You’ll want to sing Disney songs in the car again, and you’ll notice things again. Stuff like the wood grain on a door or all the little individual wiggly threads that make up your towel. Everything will look different.

      Unfortunately, breaking out and finding wholesome spaces is hard when you’re surrounded by energy vampires who’ve drained every last scrap of hope and joy and positive feeling from your soul. You can’t wait until you ‘feel better’ and ‘have the energy’ and then find new people and places. You’ll have to grit yourself up with the only tools you’ve got left, frustration and anger and ‘I don’t even care anymore, I’m out’, which is incredibly hard when you’ve been crushed to the point of depression. No way this random comment on the internet can be correct about you, right? Other people might find new friends and new spaces and feel better, but you and your degree really actually are worthless, so why bother?

      Well, it can’t get any worse. At least if you leave and kick ’em in the metaphorical shins you’ll be getting your own back, right? Stuff ’em. Kick ’em in the shins and go try some other people. You got this.

    5. RagingADHD*

      It helps me to go really, really big-picture on stuff like this, and ask things like, “what is the purpose of my existence as a human being?”

      It’s not about jobs or money, that’s for sure. Those are necessary means to an end, but not the end themselves. I don’t want to get too specific here, but to me, purpose involves being the right person in the right place at the right time to help someone else, and having interesting experiences.

      College formed important parts of my character and thinking. And the trajectory of my career path (even though it wasn’t what I originally had in mind) led me to places and people I never would have encountered otherwise (including my husband).

      Personally, I think the notion that the classes you choose to take at age 19 or 20 are supposed to define a single path you stay on for 40 years is ridiculous. Who wants their life planned out by someone whose brain isn’t fully formed yet, and who has zero real world experience of anything? Kind of nightmarish, if you think about it.

      Living your life is not a waste. Exploring your interests is not a waste. Growing and changing is not a waste.

      You were not put on this earth to be an employee. That is not your value.

    6. GythaOgden*

      I’m not only not using my undergraduate, I’m not using my Masters either, and I got my PhD place in 2013 but failed to get funding to study Russian jurisprudence (I know, biggest irony of ironies :(((…).

      I’ve been told, however, that even in lower-prestige jobs, I’ve shown I can think on my feet a bit more and analyse things. The only reason I didn’t have a straight upward trajectory is that I’m autistic and struggled with key mental and physical prerequisites to holding down a job. I’m the person who fell asleep at her desk, I’m the person who had to be told not to sit there earnestly sketching Polish railway stations on reception /but/ I’m the person who used the scientific method to deduce that Santa Claus was actually my mum long before I went to uni and I’m the person who dissected a weirdly worded email the other day to find out where a missing 50p should go in a payment request sent back to us by AP.

      As Educator says, it’s the soft skills you learn there that can help as well as having to reason things out, structure arguments and find sources to support your conclusion. As a law student, I know where the good stuff is kept and I also know the difference between what we’d like to be true and what really is true (and never, ever do anything legal without a lawyer who knows your case because the law doesn’t work on semantics or emotions; it is adjudicated on much firmer rational arguments than that).

      The other thing I think you have going for you with a liberal arts degree is that you have more of a range of exposure to different subjects and disciplines than we do over the other side of the Atlantic. I am actually a big fan of the American liberal arts system as it gives people a lot more of a chance to find their interests and work towards them while in college.

      In the UK, you generally have to start specialising as early as 14 and only generally go to uni to study one specific subject. It’s a much wider spread of different experiences and it gives people time to find their academic and vocational feet and actually learn their strengths and weaknesses over a longer period of time. I would definitely have benefited from it as I struggled to choose just three subjects at 16 and did politics at uni because at the time my goal was to become an MP. Once I got out of uni I found the array of different jobs overwhelming and struggled to find my niche as a result, and unfortunately MP is not an entry-level job and I had difficulty toeing any party line at all, least of all my own. (I didn’t do anything like internships or any other work except campaign data entry in support of British membership of the Euro and photocopying stuff for the Labour Party, although I did go to the National Union of Students conference as a campaign rep and oh yes there’s footage of me on YouTube at a Labour youth conference where I met a guy who I didn’t end up marrying but am still in touch with to this day.)

      I think the idea of having a taste of a dozen different subjects before settling on a specific degree path is probably better in terms of employability. You come out having made some decisions already, you have a basic knowledge of a wider range of subjects and thus may well be able to be more agile. IDK, maybe I’m just looking at it through rose-tinted goggles as something that would have engaged me more as an actual student, but ISTM that the American system might actually produce a few more streetwise young adults than ours does.

      That said, I graduated in 2001, so the UK system has probably (definitely!) changed a lot. We’re working to try and get more vocational options in higher education and give more people the opportunity to do apprenticeships and rebuild the dignity of non-academic career paths. (My cousin dropped out of uni and went into the army, which became his career without needing a degree; he can’t be a commissioned officer without a degree and then studying at Sandhurst, but he hasn’t ever really needed to look at the path. Mind you, my aunt was a bit tearful — he was actually in Afghanistan for a few months and then for a number of years became a professional jumper-out-of-planes, which she wasn’t exactly happy with either.) I don’t think academic education should have a monopoly on teaching people skills, creativity or critical thinking, because every young person has different skills.

      Academic elitism isn’t good either; people like my cousin aren’t second class citizens because they couldn’t hack uni; they do have valuable skills and thoughtful mindsets and I sure as heck couldn’t do what he did renovating his own fixer-upper property. But in ensuring you aren’t elitist about education, don’t hide your own light under a bushel either.

    7. Rainy*

      My degrees are in Classics and while I work in higher ed, I do student-facing work that is not teaching. My degrees are not useless: the experience and skills I gained while obtaining them are invaluable on a daily basis. I didn’t have to improve my mental outlook about wasting time or money and I have never felt worthless as a human because I chose to spend 13 years studying something I enjoyed. It did take me some time to figure out how to articulate the skills and experience from my education for employers, but it also took me some time to figure out how to talk about my eight years of work experience before getting my BA in ways that were compelling for employers. That’s honestly just a fact of seeking employment. I recently changed jobs and when I started applying to make that change, even though I was applying half in my field and half for lateral moves, I still had to relearn how to talk about myself as a professional just because it had been several years since I’d done so and the market does evolve.

      Employers *will* value those skills…but you have to value them first, and it sounds like things have been dragging you down to the point that you currently don’t. If you don’t walk into that room (or process) *believing* that you bring something important to the table, no one else will ever believe that.

      1. Saving PDFs Not Lives*

        “Employers will value those skills but you have to value them first” is a GREAT way of framing this. I have 2 degrees in a field completely unrelated to my job. I know that my skills and lessons learned from that field are what makes me successful at my job, but I had to understand that, and then sell that to employers in a way that they could understand!

  99. Jaya*

    Last time I thought the job hunt would end, I had done an in-person interview. Next week, or at least “mid-September” I am going to find out the results for one of them. At the least, I hope I do. And I scheduled an in-person Monday while planning for a job fair Wednesday.
    The uncertainty lies in making sure I’m emotionally prepared to enter the fray because the past four months have been weighing on me. It’s visible that I’m exhausted, and I want to make the best possible first impression. Unsure how to make sure that I properly recharge this weekend.
    There is also the question of follow-up, if it’s worth following up proactively for the in-person I already did so I’m not waiting. The waiting for this long has already been a bit much but I don’t know if it’s a case that waiting makes sense.

    1. Educator*

      Mid-September in the hiring world really means late September or early October. Try not to think about it, and don’t follow up before then–they will not forget to hire you if you are their top pick! But the timeline is theirs to control.

      I love the idea of a recharge weekend! Outside of a few set hours of interview prep, I hope you are able to find some activities that make you think about something else entirely. Good book, dinner with a friend, distracting show, new recipe?

      1. Jaya*

        I appreciate the heads up about the timelines being a bit later; mainly it’s a question of figuring out if funds need to be moved around to pay bills.

        Thus far I’ve read a new book, rewatching Dungeon Meshi, and trying to get lots of rest. Interview prep is going to be the hard part because I get practice anxiety.

  100. Mimmy*

    Where I work, part of what we do with students is help them develop their resume. I learned that I will be helping Lucinda, the main staff member who does this. Recently, Lucinda asked for help with one student’s resume that needed a lot of editing. When she sent it over, I wrote back with questions. Rather than answer my questions, Lucinda’s reply was essentially, “never mind, I can do it myself”. (That’s not what she said, but that’s kinda how it came across to me).

    What’s the best way to respond to something like this?

    1. Educator*

      Do you absolutely need her help with your questions? She sounds pretty busy! Now that you know this about her, it might be good to try to use other resources or trust your instincts in the future. My guess is that you were asked to help her because she has too much on her plate, so think strategically about how you can make her workload lighter. I would try to find a moment to tell her that she can keep sending resumes your way, and to ask her any absolutely essential questions that will apply to lots of situations. But try to do it in person or on a call–writing answers out takes longer than a conversation for most people.

      My bias here is that I once had an employee who asked so many questions about every task that it genuinely was faster to do things myself than to delegate to her. She was afraid to do anything wrong, so she asked about every little detail. I was able to coach her out of it, and she became a great employee, but the gist of that coaching was–trust yourself! It is more important that these tasks get done than that they are done completely perfectly.

    2. Hortense*

      The best way would be to be helpful and take the work off her plate, not generate yet more for her. It’s probably quicker for her to just do it herself than spend time answering your questions. The goal of sending it to you was to reduce her workload, not add to it.

      If you can do it without sounding frustrated about it, you could try asking her how she’d like you to handle situations where you have questions – does she prefer that you try editing it yourself, and then send it back with a note of anything you weren’t sure about? Just do it and let her check it and fix any issues? Follow a style guide and not bother her?

    3. RagingADHD*

      I would probably not respond at all and let it slide.

      If they were questions of fact that needed clarification from the student, next time I would ask whether it was OK to contact the student directly.

      1. Loreli*

        This. I can understand you needing information to be able to improve the resume, but this would be info you need from the student. If Lucinda needs to ask the student and then relay the answers to you, this is not good for a couple of reasons. It makes more work for Lucinda, but more importantly it means you’re getting the info second-hand, with no way to ask clarification except by going back through Lucinda. Just ask Lucinda if you can contact the student directly.

  101. Oink*

    My friend had a mental health episode at work. He was not disruptive to anyone else but was acting oddly while he was carrying out his duties. His boss assumed he was drunk or high and fired him.

    Friend has since explained to boss about the situation and offered to go through drug tests at his own expense. He also offered to pay for random future testing to prove he is sober and can give proof of his mental health diagnosis. Boss thinks he’s lying and has said Friend can’t come back.

    Is there anything at all that Friend could do? He is broke and devastated.

    1. Educator*

      If you are in the US, the EEOC addresses this in their FAQ on mental health and legal rights–it’s literally the first question! (link in reply) If I were him, I would approach someone with authority over his boss, ideally HR, in a collaborative spirit, armed with this information, explain what happened, and ask to resolve the misunderstanding so that the company does not (continue to) violate the law.

    2. kalli*

      He’s already tried talking to work, so unless there’s someone with significant sway over Boss, either an EEOC complaint or a lawyer.

      It won’t exactly endear him to Boss and may result in a payout instead of reinstatement, so a lawyer would be helpful to assess his chances even if he wants to self-represent.

      If he does get to go back, now that his mental health circumstances are out there, if ADA or FMLA or a state program for either accommodations or leave are remotely available to him and your workplace meets the minimum requirements, getting one of those so it’s documented with some external involvement that he has a thing would potentially help preserve his future employment there since it would be easier to go ‘but work knew’.

    4. SunnyShine*

      He should not pay for testing as most businesses can do that. The reasonable thing would be a doctor’s note. Is there an HR department that he can talk to?

  102. Mrs Barrett*

    Do I need to give my boss a reason why I need to take a personal day? I’m giving two weeks notice that I’m taking it. He’s going to have to cover my shift and I know he won’t be happy about it.

    1. RagingADHD*

      No, you don’t have to, but giving a surface reason, even if it’s as vague as “to take care of some personal matters” can make people more likely to agree to things.

  103. ADA Accommodation*

    Has anyone here ever requested an ADA accommodation for depression and/or anxiety? I have severe depression and anxiety and am under the care of a therapist and psychiatrist, but I’m still finding it extremely difficult to manage.

    Not looking for medical advice or medication suggestions. Just wanted to see if anyone here had experience with requesting an ADA accommodation. What did you ask for? How did it go? Should I do this?

    I have a supportive manager, but I’m scared of the stigma surrounding mental illness. I worry I’ll be passed over for projects, etc.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’ve known several people have accommodations for various reasons inlcuding MH. It protected their job and reduced their stress, but at least while the accommodations lasted – and sometimes longer – they were not put on critical/stretch/time-sensitive projects (and this was in the fluffy EU) That may also have been out of kindness, as managers wanted to make life as low stress as possible.

      However, before worrying about being passed over in your career, I recommend you prioritise your MH and keeping your job, both of which are usually easier if you have accommodations with a supportive manager.
      Yes, your career may be on hold for at least as long as you need the accommodations – unless those accommodations are “easy” ones that enable you to do all your important work tasks to a high standard AND do not require more work from your manager or coworkers.
      If your problems respond well to treatment, you may then find your career takes off again, better than ever.

      1. Educator*

        Prioritizing your mental health and keeping your job is a good strategy. I agree completely that long-term success is not more important than your mental health.

        If you are in the US, there are two tactics you can use. I would talk to your medical providers first about which one feels right to you, then talk to your HR team. Remember that while you many need a provider to support leave or accommodations, you and they do not need to go into detail.

        If you cannot do your job right now, all the time or sometimes–look into FMLA. It can be taken intermittently or for an extended period. It is unpaid, which is not great, but your job is protected.

        If you can do your job, but there are some things that would make it easier–request accommodations. They are designed to modify how you do your work, but not your actual responsibilities. Your employer has to engage in an interactive process with you–basically problem solving together. Talk to your medical provider about what the big obstacles in your days are, and what might make them easier.

        Sometimes you can get some accommodations informally if you have a supportive boss and they are within her discretion just by asking for them. For example, an employee asked me to flex her schedule back two hours. I don’t care a bit, since it does not impact her work, and I did not ask her why, but I have seen a positive impact on her mental health. Other times, you may want to start with HR. For example, I had another employee who needed a private mini fridge for her medication. Totally cool with me, but because they were forbidden by facilities, HR needed to give it the stamp of approval.

        Whatever you decide, remember that mental health is health, and you don’t need to say much about what is going on. You don’t need to say “my anxiety keeps me up all night, so I need a later start time.” You just need to say “because of a medical issue for which I am in treatment, a later start time would help me balance my scheduling needs.

  104. Really want a raise*

    Thoughts on submitting a request for a raise via email? In my organization, a raise has to be approved by several levels of management. Is it a good idea to present my bid for a raise to my supervisor in an email, so I can lay out my talking points without them being forgotten/misremembered by the time they make it up the chain?

    1. candle hoarder*

      Personally I would do this in a face to face meeting first and then maybe recap the meeting in a follow-up email so your conversation is both documented and time-stamped. Makes it easier for you to track how long things are taking. Good luck!

    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I know it can be embarassing to ask f2f for more money, but it is much more effective and also the normal convention (unless you are 100% remote, in which case a meeting with cameras on)
      You could check in her calendar when she’s free and send a meeting invitation with this as the subject and your justifications as bullet points in the text

  105. CountessOfCrows*

    I have a direct report who is upset that I looked at her work Outlook calendar and asked her a question about leave listed on her calendar that she had not requested on our payroll software from a prior month. She does not think it is right that I looked at her “personal work calendar”. Outlook allows you to set calendar entries as private, which she has done for some entries but not this one. Is there an expectation of privacy for a work calendar?

    1. epizeugma*

      I think she’s being unreasonable. If her calendar is shared and she made the event visible to you, she should have the expectation that you will at some point see it.

    2. Merry*

      It sounds like she might not be fully aware of how outlook works, and she was embarrassed you saw it before she asked for the time off. I would discuss it with her and make sure she understands that a work calendar doesn’t carry an expectation of privacy

    3. Annie*

      To answer your question, there is generally no expectation of privacy on a shared work calendar.

      If she uses her calendar to self-organize and not to advertise availability or similar, she might not have her calendar share settings configured correctly. Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t react graciously to bad or unexpected results that come from a misconfiguration, especially in the immediate aftermath.

      Now to figure out what the leave (or “leave”, if any field-specific alternate definitions apply, such as leave = permission or temporary reassignment) is all about…

  106. Merry*

    I love my job, in teapot terms, I keep the teapots and our employees safe I’m great at it, I have a supportive boss, I love my coworker and employees. I’ve been in my job knocking it out of the park over 10 years. Keeping teapots safe only comes up every once in a while, so a lot of my job is whatever else needs to be done, and unfortunately I am enjoying these new things less and less, and recently I was told I’d be getting a significant raise, which was not given to me because of budgets, my huge problem with that is my boss never told me, I heard from a co-worker that none of us were getting our promised raise. Additionally the new head teapot in charge really doesn’t seem to like me much, so I’m concerned my guaranteed future is finite. So I took a look and applied for exactly one job a job that I’ve always dreamed of, at an academic library. I had a screening interview and got a call back interview for it! This job has always seemed impossible to me because full time positions are hard to come by and they usually require a degree and I didn’t go to college so this really feels like my one shot. and I’m having a crisis trying to prepare for an interview because thinking of leaving my current job actually makes me cry. The teapots need me! But also what if the teapots are just fine without me?! In most cases people say if it doesn’t work out you can always go back to your last job but there’s a lot of reasons to think that won’t be possible, because my position is the only one there I could see doing. what if I give up a job I love for a job that isn’t the dream I thought I had?

    TL/DR: I’m not even sure what question I’m trying to ask at this point. I think if anyone has any advice on interviewing for a dream job when you still love your job?

    1. epizeugma*

      Has the info that you will not be getting the raise actually been confirmed by your boss?

      While the job interview might lead to a great new role, it might also be prudent to make sure that you get confirmation directly that the raise in your current role is for sure not happening. Not saying your coworker was lying but misunderstandings happen.

      1. Merry*

        Its 100% not happening, the raise was supposed to be given in July and my boss has since confirmed it. While I believe wholeheartedly her not telling me was an oversite, she has shown me a few times now in a few ways that she either can not or will not fight for me, this being one of them

    2. Help me*

      I just went through something similar (see my comment below!!) and just tried to remember that an interview is about information gathering and giving myself options. You dont need to take it if you dont want it down the road!

  107. Bruiser Woods*

    My boss asked me and another senior colleague to find another job because the company is losing money. He said the projects I worked on lost money but only could provide metrics when I insisted but even then it’s unclear because he hasn’t fully justified our overheads and cost rate. He asked us to seek jobs in new areas and it is hard to be profitable in first year. He is thinking about retiring soon. I worked my butt off for over 5 years, my colleague longer. He is going to keep on 3 younger cheaper casuals (two I sourced from my networks and all I played a key role in traininh) but asked us to look for other jobs. Such a shock I knew he had to retire soon but we just rented a new office space for two years and put in and won proposals for new work one on a three year contract. I’ve put in 3 job applications and got interview for one but feeling really discouraged. In my interview I was not super confident or enthusiastic because I don’t want to be stuck in a situation like this again and wasn’t sure I can use him as a reference. Anyway rant over I’ve furthered my skills with lost grad study that is about to be submitted just wanted some encouragement in my job search and don’t want to rush into something that isn’t right fit again.

  108. JobHopper*

    This was in my in box this am, I think it is a good read. Find it in INC.

    An Honest Recruiter Told Me Why Most Job Seekers Don’t Get Hired
    If you want a great job, you need some tough love. Here it is.

  109. Help me*

    With the caveat that no one can make the decision but me, which of these jobs would you take?
    1) A job at the preeminent Teapot Maker Association that pays extremely well. The role itself is not the best, but I would be exposed to and learn a lot. The culture might be a bad fit too.
    2) Stay in my current role, with a counter offer with a salary bump (but still less than Job 1). This is at a smaller regional (but unrelated) Teapot Maker Association but the work of the role itself is much more up my alley. Ultimately the salary difference will be roughly 10-20k and while I may not get as many high profile opportunities, I could have more power or better long term growth (big fish, small pond). Culture is a good fit except for leadership, who may be on their way out soon.

    Do I take the money and run?!

    1. Rick Tq*

      Stay where you are and start working on your progression plan and growth. Money is important but the role and culture issues at the bigger organization will be a mental drag long term.

    2. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      There have been several stories on this site about problems when accepting a counter offer from your current company. Please search and read some of them.

    3. SunnyShine*

      Accept the counter offer and keep looking for another job. Both don’t sound great in any case. Culture is kind of a big deal. Can you handle being around 8 hours of a culture that you don’t like?

Comments are closed.