rebuilding a team after an abusive manager, intervening with a creepy coworker, and more

by Alison Green on September 4, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. How do I rebuild a department after an abusive manager?

I’ve recently accepted a new position at the director level. I supervise several managers who, in turn, each supervise their own team of employees. Prior to my arrival, one of the managers, Marcy, exhibited some problematic behavior. As I understand it, she has sometimes reacted with extreme anger, aimed both at her direct reports and at other members of the department. She’s never gotten violent, but she has screamed so vociferously that people felt intimidated and afraid. She was reprimanded, coached, and forced to undergo anger management training, and I’ve been told that her behavior has improved. I’m not sure if her anger issues are completely resolved, but I haven’t seen anything troubling since I’ve been here.

What I have witnessed, however, is the damage done by Marcy’s past bad behavior. The entire department walks around her as though on eggshells. Disagreements which in other circumstances would be minor and manageable are blown up into bigger ordeals because everyone approaches her with such distrust.

Her past behavior has earned this distrust, but I need to find solutions to help the department move forward. I cannot fire her (barring future bad action), so how do I help my department without seeming like I’m minimizing their trauma? I want everyone to work together effectively, and I don’t know how to do that so long as Marcy remains, but I have to play the hand that I’ve been dealt. Do you have any recommendations to help speed up the process or allow for the opportunity for the rebuilding of trust?

Marcy is responsible for this problem and she should be an active part of the solution. You should meet with her and lay out what you’re seeing — fear and distrust and problems becoming bigger than they need to be because she’s salted the earth with her past behavior — and tell her that you need her to work on repairing those relationships. It’s not enough for her to just stop yelling; now she needs to figure out how to repair the damage. Maybe that means apologizing to people one-on-one. Maybe it means she still needs to alter more of her behavior (for example, she’s not yelling now, but how much of a point is she making of demonstrating that people can safely disagree with her?). I don’t know because it will depend on specifics, but she needs to be thinking about this and working on it at least as actively as you are, and part of your role is to hold her accountable for doing that.

You should also ask other team members for their input, because you need to make sure the problem hasn’t just been driven underground. (For example, do you know for sure that Marcy isn’t still reacting to people poorly, just less intensely than before?)

Realistically, though, this might not be fixable. People don’t trust her because they have reason not to trust her. But that’s where I’d begin.

2. Should I intervene with a creepy coworker?

I’m a fairly junior female employee in a very male-dominated field. I sit a few rows down from one of my few junior female coworkers, Liz. Liz and I are friendly, grabbing the occasional coffee or happy hour here and there, but not super close beyond that.

A male employee in our office, Jack, who is several decades older than we are, has recently been treating Liz in a way that feels very uncomfortable to me. Two to three times a day, I will see him go over to her desk and insist on conversing with her for stretches of 15-20 minutes, even if she is clearly working. The chat is never work-related: He asks about her weekend, her evening plans, what she’s reading etc., and often launches into long personal stories of his own. Liz is usually civil but curt during these interactions, mostly nodding along while trying to continue her work; her expression and body language usually appear (at least to me) visibly annoyed throughout.

Is there anything I can do about this situation? I feel horrible just being a bystander without trying to help put a stop to it, but I assume that I shouldn’t intervene without asking Liz what she would prefer. But as someone who is neither Liz’s manager nor her close friend, but just a coworker, is that even an appropriate conversation for me to have — and what would be the right way to have it, if so?

Yes, talk to Liz. Say, “Are you happy to chat with Jack when he comes by or would you appreciate me interrupting with something work-related when he stops by?”

Also, if she expresses any discomfort with what he’s doing, please encourage her to talk to her manager. She shouldn’t have to put up with this and a decent manager should be happy to intervene on her behalf — for anyone, but especially because Liz is junior, which means she’s more likely to be unsure of how to shut down Jack herself and whether she even can shut him down. It’s so normal to need help with things like this when you’re new to the work world and dealing with an employee several decades your senior. Encourage her to get that help!

3. Hiring manager texted me at 9 pm

I got a text from a hiring manager at 9 pm last night after submitting an application that morning/early afternoon. The timing of it weirded me out. Is it a red flag?

We’re in the same time zone (this place is only 30ish minutes away from me). He said he really wanted to get someone hired and trained but I thought, “Would it have really hurt to wait until the morning?”

I have this feeling that the work/life balance won’t be good and there will be no boundaries if I do get hired. That there will be multiple late-night messages and trying to get me to do stuff on my off time. I was just trying to relax before bed when this text came through, then I was trying to figure out my schedule to fit this in. I just get red flags from it.

Yeah, you’re right to be concerned.  If it had been an email rather than a text, I’d be less worried because that’s less intrusive; people work their own schedules and as long as he wasn’t expecting an immediate response from you, I wouldn’t be terribly concerned. I’d still ask about what hours people there typically work and probe around a bit, but a 9 pm text is more unsettling.

That said, it’s too early to conclude anything definitive. Go to the interview, take his measure, probe into the culture (and remember that you are interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you!), and feel free to ask, “I noticed you texted me at 9 pm — is it common for the team to get work texts at that hour?”

4. Can I ask to have the red wall in my new office repainted?

I work in higher education and my department recently welcomed a new director. Due to some changing priorities, I have the exciting opportunity to transform my role to one that better serves our students (and is generally a better fit for me)!

This change will require me to change offices, which brings me to my question: can I ask for my new office to be painted before I move in? The last time (10+ years ago) it was painted, they used the basic office greige for a majority of the walls and a deep red for a pop of color. The red is bright and distracting and now that I’m losing my window and natural light, I’m worried the statement wall is going to impact my mood and productivity.

We have such a tight budget and I don’t know my new boss that well. Will asking for one wall to be repainted cause me to pick up a “diva” reputation?

I think you can ask. Don’t make it sound like it’s about decorating to your precise aesthetic preferences. It might turn out that would be perfectly okay too, but since you’re worried about coming across as tone-deaf on a team with a tight budget and new leader, say something like, “That red makes my head hurt after five minutes — any chance I could get it repainted to something neutral like the color on the other walls?”

For what it’s worth, if they’re not willing to repaint it, they might be willing to let you do it in a neutral color at your own expense. You shouldn’t have to do that, but it’s a solution that’s been used before by the desperate.

5. I can overhear my coworker’s Zoom therapy

A coworker I consider to be a trial of patience just moved into an office on my hall. Our offices all have doors that shut, but the walls are paper thin and I can usually hear everything my immediate neighbors are saying. When it’s about work stuff, it doesn’t really matter but this coworker has therapy on Zoom once a week. I can hear what she says (although I can’t make out what the other person says) and it’s really uncomfortable. I normally avoid chitchat with this person because of rude things she’s said in the past and I don’t want to stir the pot … but I also don’t want to listen in on her personal therapy sessions!

Since you’d rather not say something to her directly, why not just put on headphones or use a white noise machine? Sometimes you have no choice but to suck it up and have a potentially awkward conversation, but since in this case we’re only talking about an hour a week, there’s nothing wrong with just taking the easy way out rather than dealing with someone you’re worried will be rude.

You may also like:
{ 266 comments }

{ 266 comments… read them below }

  1. Analyst*

    OP1: Oof. I’ve got to be honest, if someone asked me what it would take to work with an abusive person who has yelled at people…my initial answer is nothing would help. And I would loose a lot of respect for the organization and person asking.

    Maybe if they were at least no longer a manager? I would not be comfortable interacting with this person without a witness. I would also not feel like I could answer the question safely since this person was kept. I’d be job hunting.

    There’s some pretty shiny red flags being waved about by your new job. I’d expect to loose people over this. Stinks that you’re stuck cleaning up the mess with this person still around.

    1. Nodramalama*

      I don’t think LW has the power to remove or demote Marcy. And even if they did, I imagine it would be difficult for them to advocate for that if the organisation has already determined the way they were going to deal with her.

      1. MsM*

        I think it’s still worth clarifying if they can’t fire Marcy because their boss(es)/HR have made it clear they can’t, or if they simply feel it wouldn’t be “fair” for anything short of continued screaming.

        1. el l*

          I would revisit the subject with senior management, yes.

          “I want you to know that the problem is deep and lasting. Marcy’s past behavior has led to an lasting culture of dysfunctional walking-on-eggshells distrust. It’s completely unacceptable that we have this pattern.

          I am working with her and with the rest of the team to repair the damage, and will do my utmost. BUT – I need to know upfront what latitude I have to solve this culture problem. Do I have your backing – if other options exhausted – to discipline her or fire her if that’s what it takes to fix this? Because if I don’t – if that consideration is going to matter than an ongoing massive culture problem – I need to know this right now.”

        2. NotAnotherManager!*

          This is where I am. If Marcy can’t mend fences (and, since the organization has decided to keep her, it’s on them to provide coaching or whatever is needed to be explicit with her on what she needs to be done), then how can she be an effective manager? Being successful in her job shouldn’t just be an absence of screaming but an actual ability to get it done, and that requires your staff not being terrified of you. If she’s responsible for producing widgets with a <2% defect rate, and her defect rate is 5%+ because her staff is afraid to point out to her that she miscalibrated the widget-making machine, how can she meet the expectations of her job?

          1. owen*

            or, worse, if the reported defect rate is 1.9% but the ACTUAL defect rate is 2.1% and her staff are afraid to report this so they’re hiding defects or letting them through… not only is she not meeting the expectations of her job her staff are still set up for failure, and your customers are getting broken widgets

          2. Dancing Otter*

            But LW is Marcy’s direct supervisor. If coaching is to be provided, it sounds as though LW would be the one to do it. Hence the need for advice.

            I agree with El 1 about getting clarification. If LW can’t discipline one of their direct reports, that’s important information to have. It would have been important information to know *before* LW took the job, frankly. Inheriting a problem employee is bad enough even without one’s hands being tied

        3. Nodramalama*

          I except the answer would be, we have already investigated her conduct and determined the appropriate discipline. The end. A new manager can’t really come in and try to implement a different measure of discipline than already determined to be appropriate, especially for past behaviours LW wasn’t here for

      2. Analyst*

        oh I know…I feel bad for OP1 (and everyone besides the awful manager and higher ups who decided to keep her) cause what a mess.

    2. RedinSC*

      Yeah, I would think that the only way for me to not be looking for a new job is if that person is no longer managing anyone. That they get moved to an individual contributor type of role.

      I’d be seriously looking for a new position, though, if I reported to the yeller.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      Honestly, the only thing I can think of is making sure that all of Marcy’s interactions with the team are monitored. Any meeting has a higher level manager in attendance, any Zoom call has the same, and all email/text/Slack communications CC a higher level manager. Marcy is strictly kept separate from the team in any unmonitored capacity, including casual interactions.

      The team still won’t trust Marcy, but they may come to trust that Marcy isn’t going to be given the chance to abuse them any further. And yes, this is incredibly labour intensive and convoluted, but the team is tiptoeing around on eggshells because they don’t believe Marcy has changed, but is merely on temporary good behaviour.

      Aside from that – time and good behaviour. If Marcy can keep this up, and not backslide for long enough (years, not weeks), the team may come to trust that the change in behaviour is real and permanent. The caveat is that if she backslides, even once, she’ll have lost the chance to change her reputation. If she can keep it up eventually the team will turn over completely, and she’ll be supervising only people she hasn’t abused.

      1. JSPA*

        Hmmm… even (as a counterhypothetical) if they do now trust her in the abstract, one doesn’t flip one’s way of interacting, overnight. I think the LW has to dig deeper, to find out if this is about ongoing fear, or about people having settled into patterns of coping that are now default and natural. I’m not sure that having someone Observe or shadow Marcy’s every interaction will help or hinder, if this is already mostly an ingrained pattern?

        Frankly, the best cure for a pattern is bringing in some new people who can model a new pattern (or giving people a break to weaken the grip of the old pattern). I wonder if there’s any chance of doing some cross-training with other teams? Watching a new person treat Marcy like a normal boss, and having that work ok, might break fear-based behavior (if and when there is less to fear).

        Given the ubiquity of email and texting you can’t easily use the other model-breaker, which is to send people with a verbatim message [Please tell Marcy, verbatim, with finger quotes, that Jan says to ask you, “Hi, can you swing by around 3 pm for a brief catch-up on the new spout options from spoutco.”] But if something about their process makes that reasonable, the LW could try that to (literally!) put words into people’s mouths.

      2. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        Yes, this. And I was wondering, too, if the team’s way of meeting and operating might be changed as well? Change the type of meetings to something more collaborative and have them led by the PM instead of Marcy, perhaps? Let Marcy retain the responsibility for managing things like schedules while also taking away some of her power to affect the day-to-day mood?

        A team-wide reorganization that puts less power in Marcy’s hands and demonstrates trust in the team’s ability to excel might help smooth things over.

      3. Dust Bunny*

        Aaaaaallllll of this: Nobody believes Marcy has changed fundamentally because she shouldn’t have acted this way in the first place. Everyone believes she’s only being kept in check by fresh discipline. This is a very-long-game process.

    4. Allonge*

      So – I have worked on the team of a manager who, in her first year, behaved a lot like marcy sounds, including yelling (like screaming) at members of our team in front of her boss(!) and press(!!!).

      We all went to HR and she was coached and trained and I imagine reprimanded. HR was working with her a lot to get to a level where she was stable, and to be fair, she did get to a point where she was a decent manager some years later.

      Some people left our department after this, but most stayed (we have great working conditions otherwise which I am sure was a consideration not just for me) and new people came.

      I have never forgotten what she did of course (I was not among the yelled-at but we are a small and close enough team). But it helped that she knew what she was doing on the technical side and she learnt to listen to us otherwise. It helped that HR was obviously checking in with her and with us, and that her boss was aware and so on. And I also stayed because I like my job!

      I am not saying this will always be possible. OP has a big job. I would not go as far as AcademiaNut is suggesting (monitoring every interaction is waaay too much) but being present and especially listening to people and giving them ways to address concerns is a must. If there is a concern about overall team performance due to the natural unease with Marcy, OP should address that too – celebrate the achievements, but without ignoring the context. Maybe OP could have a role in individual performance assessments so it’s not just Marcy and individual team members?

      Other than that – well, if the choice has been made to keep Marcy on, then everyone else will make their choices based on this, one way or the other. People have a tremendous capacity to get used to things; eventually, if there is a true change in how Marcy operates, that will be the new norm.

      1. Miette*

        This is the way to handle something like this.

        The difference is that in Allonge’s case, employees knew they had a safe way to complain/report the boss’s behavior should they backslide, and it’s unclear in OP’s letter if that’s been made clear (or if it is even the case). ARE there serious consequences if Marcy falls back into bad habits? Is everyone aware of them? Is management prepared to deal with her swiftly if it happens? The employees not only need to feel heard but listened-to, and a big part of them ever being comfortable with their boss again is them knowing future bad behavior will be taken seriously.

        1. Snow Globe*

          Providing the employees a safe way to report bad behavior is key. The LW needs to think about how to do that and how to make sure the employees really feel that they can report any bad behavior.

          1. EvilQueenRegina*

            Seconded. When I had a Marcy, she reported to her neighbour/friend which made it more difficult for us to feel we could really raise it (it was only raised after someone else took over). Marcy was investigated – she ended up quitting after sick leave, so I don’t know what the outcome would have been had she returned, but I did say to our interim manager that I didn’t feel I could report to Marcy again if she did come back (the structure was such at the time that it could have been done).

        2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          These are great questions. What happens if Marcy can’t resolve the situation so that staff are comfortable? What if she does start to regress? Will higher-ups take any action?

      2. DJ Abbott*

        OP, before you tell people to bring their concerns with Marcy to you, be sure you can actually do something. It would make things worse if they brought concerns to you and nothing was done. It would seem like management doesn’t care.

        1. Smithy*

          Yeah – I think if where it might actually make it easier to make that more specific and little less loaded.

          For example, if an area where problems are snowballing are around project delays, then put out a blanket directive that any project looking to experience a delay of more than 1 business day (or replace with reasonable but tight time frame) needs to be shared with both Marcy and the OP. Now it might be that a number of projects regularly need extensions that Marcy is managing in a totally normal matter, but her past reactions to a certain combination of factors (or perhaps just at random) were so bad, now the whole team has bad habits about requesting project extensions.

          This takes the responsibility off of the junior colleagues to both report up when those requests aren’t handled well – but also quite frankly, to help with larger behavior changes that likely need to happen around those requests. Because when you have a bad manager, a lot of behaviors adapt to survival/coping strategies that aren’t exactly best practice (i.e. reporting up when something isn’t going well based on how those messages have been received in the past).

          If the OP makes this a case of just an open door policy for any time a direct report feels uncomfortable or unhappy again, but the bar for letting Marcy go is much higher than most individual incidents would be – then it does risk an even greater loss of trust. But instead if there’s just more interaction with Marcy, the OP, and team members on those areas more prone to challenges – then the OP can be part of setting a new tone and way of working, as well as genuinely showing a care in a management being done differently.

      3. Analyst*

        Except how can you give people a way to address their concerns when you’ve already proven you won’t remove an abusive person? How will you address these concerns? More talking about it? I would be rolling my eyes so hard if someone tried this with me. And job hunting.

        1. Myrin*

          The advice is to OP who hasn’t “proven” anything – she wasn’t even there yet when Marcy exhibited her abusive behaviour!

        2. Venus*

          It’s pretty clear from this point “I cannot fire her (barring future bad action)” that Marcy has been given one chance to improve, but will be fired if she’s known to yell or otherwise be problematic with her employees in other ways. So it is worthwhile for employees to tell HR or LW if there are continued problems.

        3. JSPA*

          Some abuse is extreme enough, and traumatizing enough, that you need the person removed, no matter how their later behavior may change. Even if they were in some way “not themselves” during the incident.

          But sometimes, when the behavior has been merely deeply unacceptable (but not to the point of being traumatizing), all you need is to have the behavior stop.

          “We do not tolerate this behavior” isn’t always the same thing as, “we do not tolerate people who have, in the past, engaged in this behavior.”

          Marcy been intensively coached and warned and put on a very short leash, and appears to be making changes. That IS “dealing with the abuse.”

        4. Allonge*

          That’s fair.

          Again, also with us not everyone stayed – I think the thing to aim for for OP is to make it clear to everyone that if you are staying, you are working with this team, including Marcy (unless she repeats her behavior – this part OP needs to be clear on, especially to themselves).

          Some people will find this unacceptable and leave. That is ok – apparently the decision was made to give Marcy one last chance; management cannot expect that this will be ok with everyone.

          The rest should be getting clear info on how to report anything amiss, as well as some – but not unlimited – leeway in getting used to the team with new, improved!Marcy.

    5. Gustavo*

      Yea the organization really messed that up. They shouldn’t have kept that person (or as you said, definitely not as a supervisor). People are not going to trust this person for a VERY long time and by then, most people are going to have left because of it.

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        I would bet that a lot already have. When my Marcy was in charge, so many people left after less than a year that it became known as the Defence Against the Dark Arts job.

        1. Learn ALL the things*

          With my Marcy, the office started doing interdepartmental transfers twice a year because people kept threatening to quit if they had to keep working for her.

            1. Learn ALL the things*

              The thing is, nobody talked about her. Ever. When I was told I was being transferred to her department, I realized she was the only manager in the organization that I didn’t know anything g about. If there was a whisper network, it hadn’t reached me yet. I didn’t know I should object to being sent to work for her, because I didn’t know what she was like beforehand.

              And then it was 2009, and I couldn’t threaten to quit after I was working for her because the recession caused levels of shrinkage in that industry that have never been reversed, so there just weren’t any jobs I could apply for instead, so I was just trapped.

              1. Learn ALL the things*

                Forgot to include in my prior post:

                We all knew about the twice a year transfers, but I only learned they were because of this manager after I had worked for her for about a year. Either people threatened to quit or she announced to her supervisors that they were incompetent and she couldn’t possibly work for them and demanded that they be moved somewhere else.

                She was close friends with the top level person in our org, and that person wasn’t interested in holding her accountable for anything, so when she demanded someone be transferred, her friend just did it.

                1. Polly Hedron*

                  I wonder if her employees kept quiet because they were afraid that, if they told the truth, no other employees would agree to swap in, and they’d be stuck working for her.

    6. Mockingjay*

      My first supervisor job (with no training, congrats, Mockingjay, sink or swim), I inherited an employee similar to Marcy. She was a long-time employee with lots of institutional knowledge and outstanding work – when she felt like doing it. Most of her issues were with other supervisors and managers, and members of different teams – she was easily irritated and snappy, and you never knew what might set her off. She had had numerous verbal warnings and was demoted from her supervisor position, which I was moved into.

      I met with her and told her this was her chance to start with a clean slate. I wasn’t going to overlook the issues she had recently, but my evaluation of her performance started today. I also asked her what she wanted – what parts of her job were satisfactory, what she wasn’t happy about, what she wanted to change. She didn’t really want to be a manager, but felt stuck that that was the only advancement path available, and a few other things. Okay, we can explore different paths, but in the meantime, here’s what’s expected of you.

      Alas, it didn’t take long before I and my manager had to put her on a PIP, and eventually fired her.

      Advice for OP1: Be very clear from the start what your expectations are for Marcy and have hard benchmarks to meet those expectations. Have a plan ready to remediate, because it’s highly likely that this employee sucks and is not going to change.

    7. Learn ALL the things*

      I actually want the LW to sit down with their own manager before they talk to any of Marcy’s staff and find out what behaviors, if any, mean that Marcy will be demoted or fired.

      I worked for an abusive manager for three years. She had been reported to HR a handful of times before I was transferred to her department, and all that did was teach her what she could get away with. Her abuse had become much more subtle and difficult to report, but it was still a daily presence in our lives. If that person’s boss had come to me and encouraged me to be honest about her, and then after I told them everything she still experienced no real consequences, that would be it. It would be absolutely clear to me that the company I worked for did not care and could not be trusted, and I’d be out of there as soon as possible.

      So, LW, talk to your manager and make sure something can actually be done about Marcy if she’s still mistreating people before you talk to her staff and get their hopes up. And if your manager tells you they believe the problem is resolved and no new information could cause them to fire Marcy, you should quit. You shouldn’t work somewhere that protects abusers, and you shouldn’t be part of inflicting her on other employees.

    8. FormerLibrarian*

      No management approach for this is going to work at all unless Marcy has accepted the problems with her behavior and committed to changing (very unlikely. She’d have to actively decide that this isn’t who she wants to be.)

      Without that, the best you’ll get is a manager who modifies her behavior enough to not get in trouble over it. That’ll potentially rebuild the team to a functional level, but no further.

      1. RunShaker*

        OP#1, I worked with a director like this. He was older white man, mid-50s. His boss suspended him for a week due to behavior after only being employed at my old company for 6 months but it kept happening. He kept screaming at reports even in front of his own boss so the reason I feel confident that his boss just gave up. He did it more to women as well. A couple of women went to HR but supposedly no one else would confirm the claims….until me. My boss called it “coaching” and I was lucky that a male coworker backed me up. My boss went from easy going to red faced, veins popping, screaming and lunging forward at me from across the table in less than 10 seconds out in the open cube farm. After going to HR and anger boss being fired, his boss questioned why I didn’t come to him first. I didn’t answer but I sure did let HR know of questioning and that his boss failed to address previous issues.
        If I was contacted/asked about this boss as a reference or found out he was interviewing where I now work, I would advise them of behavior and anger issues. I would never work with him again.
        If another manager/senior person does this to me, HR is first place I’ll be going instead of waiting and being bullied. It took me many months to report my previous manager. My HR is good at my current company. If they weren’t, I would be exploring other options and looking through archives of AAM.

        1. Bungles*

          Can you tell me what his age had to do with it? Almost every post or comment section recently includes at least one story about some awful “older” person, and much of the time their age seems to have no relevance. It seems like he was a tyrant and likely a sexist, but would his behavior been ok as a manager if he had been 30?

          1. Reluctant Mezzo*

            If he or she is older, he or she is likely to have more people above them who are ok with what they do (or they would have been gone already). Younger people who do this (unless related to the higher ups) who show that behavior are more likely to get moved on. Now, when you have younger people related to the higher ups? You should be the one to move on, because nothing is ever going to change.

            But someone who’s unrelated but older is more likely to have support from higher up anyway, or they are looking the other way till the older person retires.

            Part of this is because older people who are fired have a much harder time finding a job than a younger person, and showing them the door will normally have much harsher consequences to them than to a younger person .

          2. Oregonbird*

            Age is part of perceived social status, social status conveys privilege. So it’s a factor, along with size, gender, cultural background, medical history etc. We can feel singled out, but falling into a relevant category isn’t, irl, being targeted.

            The behavior is privileged – as is made clear when the perp isn’t removed/fired for cause, but instead given the opportunity to either continue abusing their reports – usual – or by being given more perks: training, mentoring, accommodation.

    9. Ready for the weekend*

      OP1: As someone who worked under an abusive manager and then also a coworker, the best thing I can suggest is to create and enforce a zero tolerance policy with Marcy’s behavior. Any reported/witnessed action of poor behavior by her must be shut down and reprimanded.

    10. Sara without an H*

      There’s some pretty shiny red flags being waved about by your new job.

      What Analyst said. OP#1, I’m really curious about whether you were briefed about Marcy during the interview stages? Was anyone candid with you about the fact that one of your reports had a long record of tantrums and abuse and was being coached? And that, for whatever reasons, would not be fired?

      Commenter El 1 suggested that you sit down with senior management and find out what constraints they are putting on your ability to manage Marcy. This is good advice, especially if they weren’t honest with you before you took the job. You need to know what you’re going to be able to do to manage Marcy effectively and what documentation you’d need to provide if her situation turns out to be unsolvable and you have to recommend letting her go. (I used to work in higher education. Trust me on this — create a Marcy folder and start documenting NOW.)

      I also recommend that you arrange to be actively present and available in your new department. Staff have to learn that you’re trustworthy if you’re to make any progress in rebuilding the group.

      But I’ve been in situations similar to yours, and I’d be watching your senior leadership very closely and skeptically, especially if they didn’t brief you about all this before you were hired. Something is not right.

    11. Trout 'Waver*

      100% agree. You can either have abusive managers or a good team. Good team members in general won’t stick around for abusive managers. Note: I’m not saying everyone with an abusive manager is a bad team member. But it’s generally the top performers that leave first.

    13. LL*

      Yeah, it sucks that OP can’t fire Marcy, but I would be pretty angry if someone asked me this and was told that Marcy can’t be fired. I’d never trust her again.

    14. WillowSunstar*

      There was a verbally abusive manager on a previous team I worked with years ago. She was not the only reason I left that team, but was on the top 3 list of reasons. It was to the point I was starting to have anxiety attacks walking into work, not knowing what she was going to yell about that day. She managed to get herself fired several months after I left. Sometimes, Karma happens.

    15. Lava Is Hot*

      I was a person in this exact situation. Our previously (great) manager left and we were moved under a new manager who was very verbally abusive, disparaging, backstabbing, and overtly sexist both in 1:1s and in team calls. Each member of our (all woman) team went to HR individually and then as a group. The manager was coached but ultimately received no negative consequences.

      Eventually, every member of the team either left the company, or transferred to different teams (myself included). There was just no way to come back from the loss of trust and lack of psychological safety we felt. Two years later, this manager is still here, managing another team, and even got promoted.

      OP1 – you may have to accept that there is no way to repair the relationships. I would recommend investigating options like switching teams around, or giving your good performers greater flexibility to change managers. Otherwise its very likely this will only be resolved with attrition over time.

  2. Nodramalama*

    LW2 I agree with Alison, and am a bit confused why this wasn’t the obvious option instead of going straight to intervening. She might not actually care, or is happy to handle it the way she is.

    LW3 this is timely considering Australia just brought in laws that will in theory preserve the right to disconnect! This might just be someone who works odd hours and not a larger sign. I have a few managers like this who email at all hours, but it’s because they prefer to work that way. A lot of them forget that someone might see the response and think they’re meant to action it.

    1. TheBunny*

      I send emails at odd hours fairly often. Usually it’s so the person has the answer to something they asked me first thing in the am.

      That said I’ve made it very clear to my team that I’m absolutely not expecting an after hours reply. And by made it clear I mean I’ve literally said that there’s no expectation of an after hours reply.

      If it’s someone I don’t work with often/directly I usually schedule the email to send during work hours.

        1. EllenD*

          I had a grand boss, whose signature block, said ‘Due to family commitments, I work non-standard hours, I don’t expect replies outside your normal working hours.’ He left promptly several days a week to collect his children from school.

          1. Rebecca*

            I have something similar in my email signature. I’m always shocked when I get an instant reply at some weird time, though. It stands to reason that the other person is doing the same thing I am: catching up on emails at 10pm because I’m finally just sitting down. But I worry that they feel they have to reply. I am not expecting a reply; I’m just working around my kids needing stuff during business hours. I’m expecting a reply in the morning when you get to it.

      2. RC*

        Yep I tend to email late at night, or schedule them to go out at something like 7am ET the next morning, only because I tend to get a later start than others and I want to give them a chance to respond earlier than I might sign on.

        Agree that texting is a totally different medium though.

        1. Edwina*

          Maybe I’m an outlier on this, but I’d be very unhappy if someone from work – or a hiring manager where I was applying, who I didn’t even know – sent me a text at any hour! Why not email? Or schedule the text to be sent the next morning, if you must text?

          1. Pizza Rat*

            I’m with you. For me, texting is generally left to my friends or people I have told it is okay, like my doctor’s office or the restaurant where I’m waiting for a table.

          2. TheBunny*

            Texting is very common. Definitely more than it was a few years ago but as more and more of the workforce is made up of people who can’t recall a time before smartphones and Wi-Fi it’s more and more common

          3. Annie2*

            I would also find a text extremely strange in my white collar context, but I bet it’s less unusual in other industries – like I used to work in restaurants and I would find a text less strange there.

        2. I take tea*

          It is possible to schedule text messages as well. I tend to do that when I need to send reminder to someone a certain time. That way I won’t need to remember to remind somebody at half past four, I’ll just set the message to be delivered then. Very practical.

      3. learnedthehardway*

        Agreeing!! – I do a lot of work in the evening after my kids are in bed. Reason being – I have flexibility during the day and might be doing something else.

      4. AnonInCanada*

        This is why “Schedule Send” (Gmail) or “Delay Delivery” (Outlook) can be your best friends when it comes to sending emails late at night/weekends/holidays. No matter what you may say in your signature, people have been conditioned to immediate responses (thank you, “smart” phones!) I find it best to not even make the implication that the recipient needs to respond immediately. Delaying the send until next morning does this.

        1. Llama mama*

          Maybe it’s because I don’t have email alerts turned on for my phone. But I’m always surprised by the number of questions or people in the comments that seem overly
          attuned to what time people are sending emails. I sometimes notice now that Outlook likes to group emails by days, but honestly I deal with email on my own time, and expect others to do the same. It’s up there with the subset of people that are very involved with what is happening on LinkedIn, which I assume must be much more active in sectors outside my own (I maybe update it when I get a new job and never bother to look at most people’s unless I’m really trying to track down a contact who I suspect has changed jobs).

        2. Sloanicota*

          Ha when I was a freelancer, I’d use schedule-send to make something I finished late at night (“how unprofessional! This must be poorly done!”) to send at 6 or 7 AM (“wow, what a go-getter, this is going to be awesome!”). Our perception culture is so weird.

          1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

            Ha, when I practiced law, one of our co-counsel set her emails to go out at 1:55 a.m. so everyone would think she was working all night! It probably would’ve worked except that it was ALWAYS, EXACTLY 1:55 a.m.

    2. Juniper*

      Yeah, I’ve got small kids, and that means that I often get to work late or leave early. It’s never an issue, because the expectation is that I’ll still get my work done and will be trusted to manage by own time accordingly. Sometimes that means opening my computer after the kids go to bed and working (and sending emails) in the late evening. It’s not a problem for me because I think I have a pretty great work/life balance, but I wouldn’t dream of sending a work-related text.

    3. ecnaseener*

      What do you mean, you’re confused that talking to Liz “wasn’t the obvious option”? Seems to have been obvious to LW, they wrote “I assume that I shouldn’t intervene without asking Liz what she would prefer.” Are you just confused that they wrote in for advice at all? I don’t think it’s weird to need guidance around this kind of thing.

      2. Apples and Oranges*

        Yeah the LW was asking whether or not it is appropriate to bring it up with Liz. I didn’t get the impression they were contemplating any other kind of action.

      3. Lauren19*

        I did my sexual harassment and bystander training YESTERDAY so this is very fresh in my mind. Our training directed us to intervene in the moment (presuming it was a safe environment to do so) and gave examples of both direct and indirect intervention. An indirect intervention could look like “Hey Liz I could use your thoughts on this file review, do you have a minute?” That gives Liz the out to break the conversation without putting OP in a position to call out the older male colleague. OP can then privately ask if she wants her to interrupt those types of conversations. By first demonstrating how easy it is, she may make it easier for Liz to say yes.

    4. Disconnect*

      It’s worth noting that the right to disconnect doesn’t prevent the manager sending a text out of hours.

      Unless it’s unreasonable to do so, it does give an employee a right to ignore it till they’re back at work.

    5. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      Well if no one sent in questions that seemed to have obvious answers to outsiders, we wouldn’t have my favorite advice column. And if Alison’s response was “this is the obvious solution, why on earth haven’t you done it?” people would probably stop writing in.

    6. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      It wasn’t an email, it was a text. To do something right away. So not a matter of someone just working off hours. This is a case of a manager who thinks of something that needs doing and wants it acted on by others while said manager is thinking about it.

      Which many red flags waving around here. Disorganization, lack of planning, and lack of boundaries.

  3. Pink Sprite*

    For OP # 4: If TPTB won’t spring for a can of paint and you don’t want to yourself (totally reasonable), what about a few large-ish pieces of art, posters, or even a large plant? Perhaps a table, and/or a filing cabinet?

    1. AcademiaNut*

      I had a similar setup once. There wasn’t budget money to repaint, but I wasn’t allowed to do anything myself because repainting was covered by union agreements, and I figured a mysterious midnight paint job would be too easily tracked to me.

      I ended up taping many pieces of printer paper over the offending pumpkin orange wall – as a broke student I couldn’t afford anything more fancy, and it was right behind my computer. Some sort of collage might work, or even a large fabric panel, for a tapestry effect.

      1. Anandatic*

        Yunno, that reminds me – these days, you can buy these huge prints that are made to cover a small wall – a friend bought a forest print for her bedroom on Amazon on something. Not as cheap as printer paper, but probably pretty inexpensive!

      2. RLC*

        Would extra-wide cotton quilt backing fabric work? Available online and in shops in widths of 108” and sometimes wider. Might be lightweight enough to be able to secure it with thumbtacks. Huge array of colors and patterns available.

        1. Not like a regular teacher*

          I did literally this – bought a giant piece of fabric at the fabric store and tacked it up over a gross office wall that I didn’t want to look at. It was beautiful! A thrift store bedsheet would even do the trick, if funds are tight!

          (But also, in an ideal world, your employer should paint and pay for it)

        2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          Even an old sheet would work fine! Then OP could add squares of other fabric randomly for decor. A friend does “remembrance patchworks” like this using fabric cut from the clothes of a deceased loved one: she turns fabric laden with nostalgia into a work of art and it can hide defects on walls.

        3. Lady Lessa*

          You can get large solid colored flags that are easy to hang, light and you can hang artwork by going through the material with normal picture hangers. I did that with a purple one because I wanted/needed a color so that this art piece which was white with cut out pieces could be seen easily.

        4. SA*

          Might want to check with HSE for local fire codes – fabric covering a wall would definitely get flagged by our local fire department inspections (unless it was fireproofed).

      3. Sparkle llama*

        The union thing is something to be aware of. As one of the student leaders in my grad program we wanted to paint the lounge for our program and were told the only option was having facilities staff do it.

        Also be aware that depending on how zealous your institution is about fire code hanging things like fabric on the wall could be an issue. I would try to stick to art or wall stickers unless you see others with large pieces of fabric.

      4. Academic Anon*

        Ah, academia, where you have to wait on facilities to paint. My campus might be different, but facilities is jealous of their paint privileges and at the same time expensive (they are a charge back organization and cost the department-yes, it is the university paying itself).

        There is a fair bit of sneaking around on weekends and holidays with small paint cans and hoping not to get caught. That requires that your office not be near the admin for plausible deniability.

        I find a large bookcase to be the best cover for wall defects. If it will fit, there might be a surplus area where you could get one for free.

        1. pocket sized polly*

          I don’t think it’s the “university paying itself” so much as just plain old budget allocation (source: 10+ years of admin support in academia, for institutions of various size and structures–and weirdness). That’s pretty normal in both academia and industry budgeting.

          There are a few things to consider about repainting walls and academia:
          –is the red wall related to a university color? Because Marketing might have a say in what happens to that wall.
          –going around just painting the wall on your own is not going to go over well for a lot of reasons, just FYI*. It’s not going to look great compared to the other walls, the university painters will notice and will not be pleased (and you don’t ever want to alienate the school’s facilities/maintenance crew for no good reason), and if the school painters are at all unionized…whoo boy. Nope nope nopity nope. Don’t poke that hornet’s nest when it’s not warranted!

          *I’m not saying the LW was planning on doing this but just as general advice for anyone suggesting it or thinking about it for their own situation: I don’t recommend it. Based on previous experience with academia and a department that didn’t want to go through Facilities for patch jobs on the walls, it is just not worth it. Their touch-up jobs did not match the existing paint color, their touch-up jobs looked terrible anyway, and all the walls eventually had to be repainted (at considerable expense to the department) during a very busy time of year when the painters were already stretched thin. It was a department that already had an attitude of “rules don’t apply to us” and it did not endear them to leadership. As the admin, I always got caught in the crossfire even when I warned them that we really should just put in the work tickets for facilities to send out their own painters. Who were union.

    2. E*

      I had an office with no windows and bought a 3′ x 5′ wall sticker that looked like a window with a view of the beach. It helped so much and you can find pretty much whatever type of view you want.

        1. 40 Years In the Hole*

          Back in the early 90s, I worked in an airplane hangar – no windows in any of the upper offices. There was a popular IKEA poster advert, with the yellow VW Beetle beetling down the road through the woods, flatpack loaded on top.
          Hung that up, added white “mullions” to simulate window panes. That was my “window.” Had many a great mental journey in that Bug.

    3. HigherEd Boundaries*

      My university won’t let you paint it as it would be considered “defacing state property” and any painter hired has to go through a bid/contract review process (although I’ve seen it move incredibly fast before).

      As someone who has a greige office and would love to have something not so clinical, I’ve been talking with a few of my coworkers about trying out some of those renter-friendly options for wallpaper. Almost all of them are static cling of some sort and can add color or a pattern to the wall without damaging the sheetrock. If I can hang a tapestry or a painting in my office, why not static cling wallpaper?

    4. Ally McBeal*

      Agree – this sort of thing is what tapestries are made for. Not just for dorm rooms, plus it’ll be a familiar piece of decor for students visiting LW4’s office.

    5. Make it bold and make it red*

      I know every institution is different, but when I was at my university, our facilities folks handled stuff like moving furniture, painting, etc, so it would be a totally normal request that wouldn’t require any outside bidding/contracting. They had 5 gallon buckets of the office greige and could knock that out in an afternoon. You might have to wait, but it would be fine. There’s definitely no harm in asking!

      Alternatively, could you arrange your new office so the red wall is behind you and you don’t have to look at it all the time? Or put your filing cabinets on that wall to cover some of the red, hang some big art, bring in a nice lamp so the lighting isn’t so harsh on the red paint, etc.

      1. Pay no attention...*

        I was coming here to say this. At my school, it’s pretty standard that Facilities will paint offices at no charge to the department, especially after 10 years, but we have to submit the work order. My org would frown a lot more at removable wallpaper/mural/decals/tapestry/fake window things than repainting — and it might even be perceived as more diva-like and way less professional to decorate with those. I suggest a big whiteboard or bookshelves.

        Is the red a school color or just random color? If it’s a random accent wall it’ll be much easier to request a repaint to greige; if it’s a school color and this is a student-facing position, then it might be part of a campus aesthetic… so if there is a secondary school color that would be less objectionable, you could try asking for that instead.

    6. NotAnotherManager!*

      Or the removable/stick-on wallpaper in a shade or pattern that the red wouldn’t be visible through.

      1. Khatul Madame*

        This! Even if the LW puts up plain white/beige wallpaper and the red shows through, it will add a tinge of pink that is not as offensive as full-on red.

    7. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Also, there is removable wall paper and wall decals. I used them to brighten up my bedroom in an apartment that I couldn’t paint.

    8. Tiger Snake*

      Given OP#4 mentioned serving her students, I did wonder if she’d be able to argue for a little spending money to ‘exploit’ the wall space in other ways if she couldn’t paint it. Giant sheets of paper for students to write or draw whatever comes to mind, posters galore, or even just a reason to hang the individual flags for as many of the LGBTA+ community that you can think of.

      If I had carte-blache to do whatever I wanted except paint it, I’d probably get a whole bunch of sticky-backed chalk boards and white boards, and then make a checker-board pattern of temporary decorating space; but that’s just me.

  4. In A Green Shade*

    LW 3, I hope you keep a very sharp eye out for further red flags; it’s worrisome that they’re in such a hurry to hire someone.

    I once applied online for a job in the evening, got called for an interview first thing the next morning, was asked to come in and interview that day, and was offered the job right after the interview. It all made me nervous, but I’d been laid off and needed a job ASAP.

    The place turned out to be absolutely toxic and, as a result, desperately understaffed. Worst job of my adult life.

    1. Banana Pyjamas*

      LW3, but also LW1, 2 out of three places where I was hired urgently ended up having abusive bosses. The first was the grand boss, and I quit after reporting her for illegal activity. The second the grand boss didn’t manage and allowed two abusive managers to stay on. One eventually became grand boss which instigated 200% turnover in 13 months.

      LW1 specifically, is there anyway you can make Marcy a data or resource manager, but take away her power over people? Something where only other people at her level or higher are interacting with her? I think you will see turnover if you allow her to continue managing people.

    2. TheBunny*

      I think it depends. It’s absolutely something to pay attention to, but I’ve only been hired super quickly once and I remained at the job for 5 years and resigned when a new CEO made changes to corporate structure that resulted in my job going from something I lived to something I didn’t…with no option to get the stuff I loved back.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      I once got hired over the phone, with a sort of half-phone interview, half job offer. The principal also responded a couple of times with stuff like, “oh, you don’t have any experience with x? This involves a lot of x so it would be hard for you to…ah, sure, I suppose you have to start somewhere.”

      It was my first job so I didn’t pick up on the glaring red flags, but yup, this was the school that had interviewers later on after I left that job and was applying for others, saying stuff like “tell us about a discipline problem you faced and how you dealt with it and looking at the first school you worked in, I’m sure you have plenty to choose from”.

    4. OrdinaryJoe*

      I had to hire someone quickly due to upcoming deadlines and workflow and remember telling every applicant that the process was moving quickly because of X, Y, & Z. I also offered to let them speak with the person they were replacing (she was still working out her two week notice) and other department co-worker to try to avoid any Red Flags over the speed. It seemed to help :-)

    5. Mid*

      And, I had the longest hiring timeline at my worst job (three months from first interview to offer, and two months from offer to actual start), and the quickest hiring timeline at my best job (a week from first interview to offer, started a week after that.)

      It’s certainly a yellow flag, but not an immediate red flag. For the best job, I asked why their timeline was so accelerated and they had a good answer (someone was on leave and they were in the middle of a big project that I was uniquely qualified to support.)

    6. Hermione Danger*

      I had a similar job interview situation. Applied for an EA role. Needed a job, so ignored a LOT of iffy behavior.

      The next morning, was called about whether I could do a video interview in an hour. I could not, I was at an event and needed to get home and make myself interview-ready. So I interviewed in TWO hours.

      Late that night, I received an email asking me to come in two days later for an in-person interview. Juggled my schedule around and made it happen.

      They kept me waiting in their lobby for almost an hour. When I finally WAS called into the room, the hiring manager / exec was rubbing her forehead and looking exhausted. And then proceeded to berate me for the scores on a personality test I took at an earlier stage of the process. When I tried to explain how I addressed the issues raised, she snapped at me about how I didn’t know myself as well as the test did, and how hiring me would be problematic. (Then why bring me in for the interview?)

      I did not realize I could leave an interview. For some reason, I thought I needed to stay there and try to salvage that disaster of a toxic situation. Also, see needed the job, above. So I stayed until they wrapped the interview.

      As soon as the door to the building closed behind me and I was safely on the sidewalk, “No fucking way” exploded out of my mouth. I needed a job desperately, but not THAT desperately. I went home and wrote an email withdrawing my application because I didn’t feel I was a fit for the organization.

      The next morning, I had an email from them telling me how sorry they were because I’d been their top candidate.

      1. In A Green Shade*

        Wow. (Also, making job candidates take personality tests is horrific. And yet somehow not even the most horrific part of that mess.)

      2. coffee*

        So much to unpack there but the best choice was to throw away the whole box. Well done in a weird situation.

  5. sheworkshardforthemoney*

    #2 I agree with talking to Liz first. If she states that she is uncomfortable with the co-worker then you can work out a system that whenever he stops by, you interrupt after 3-5 minutes and ask Liz to come to your desk to look at something. The creepy co-worker would then have to either leave or follow Liz which would be a whole other level.

    1. Artemesia*

      The whole idea of having to dance around this creepster just infuriates me. I hope Liz will escalate this to someone who can do something about it. Woman have to put up with so much crap in the workplace and this is typical —

      1. Boof*

        Yes but so far from what’s described it sounds obnoxious but also so low key that having a manager address it if Liz hasn’t yet said something like “sorry, I have a lot of work and can’t keep chatting so much! Please keep coming to me with any work issues but I need to focus now if that’s all!” having a manager crack down on it (Idk “hey you seem to be hovering over Liz a lot; you need to stop distracting her”) may not deliver the right message. (the message being – liz does not want to talk with you – if that is the case which lw should verify – not that the manager is keeping them apart)

        1. Somehow I Manage*

          Indeed. Liz needs to confirm that she’s uncomfortable. Even remotely uncomfortable. And then LW can jump in with some work-related intervention. If it continues, then you go to manager. But going straight to the manager and asking for help could come across wrong to someone who is less likely to take it well.

      1. ThatOtherClare*

        If she’s not comfortable with saying ‘Please don’t disturb me, I’m busy’, she might be more comfortable with 3 minuted of plausible deniability. Some people are more comfortable with being assertive than others.

    3. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      Yeah, this is basic bystander intervention and was what I thought of (assuming Liz is uncomfortable with the current situation) as well.

    4. Observer*

      I agree with talking to Liz first.

      Sure. That’s always a good first step. But she’s already made it clear that she’s not happy, so that’s not the question. The question is what does she want to do about it.

      you can work out a system that whenever he stops by, you interrupt after 3-5 minutes and ask Liz to come to your desk to look at something.

      Why is that the first step? Creepy McCreeper is out of line. Now if Liz doesn’t want to go to HR or her manager even with the LW’s backing (so that no one can claim that someone “misunderstood” or that Liz is “over-reacting”, etc.) *then* you look at a plan like this. This is a bad first step for a lot of reasons, not the least is that it still subjects Liz to a lot of creepiness and it’s seriously disruptive.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Well, I think there’s not absolute certainty that Liz is unhappy and it’s better to confirm that before doing anything else. OP may feel certain that Liz is trying to work, answering monosyllabically, not encouraging the talking etc, but I have certainly misread situations when I was focused on how *I* would feel. It’s just plain respectful to start with no assumptions.

        1. Observer*

          Except that’s not the question I asked. I asked why should the LW even think about this convoluted and time wasting plan if Liz is actually uncomfortable?

          1. Bossy*

            I agree that this song and dance is ridiculous. Liz needs to just say I’m busy and can’t chat now, end of story. If she can’t then she should tell HR. I guess I’m old enough that, no I’m not doing a song and dance to get someone to not talk to me or whatever. And if I can’t or don’t want to handle it, I’ll get someone who can – manager, hr. Women, stop entertaining people you don’t want to, it’s not your job, it’s not your obligation, it’s not your predetermined role in life.

            1. lemon*

              The issue is that there can be consequences for not doing the song and dance. I’ve been in Liz’s position, and when I spoke up to the multiple dudes were stopping by my office multiple times a day, I was seen as mean, and being mean meant these guys wouldn’t work on my requests. I escalated to my manager and he just seemed amused that I was bothered by this and did nothing. I didn’t escalate to HR because I was worried about them continuing to do nothing or there being even more negative consequences. And subsequent experiences at other jobs has shown me that escalating to HR not only does nothing, it opens you up to further harassment and retaliation. I’m tired of individuals being blamed for having to make pragmatic choices in bad systems that give no one any truly good options.

            2. MigraineMonth*

              I don’t think we should discount Liz’s instincts in this. She doesn’t feel safe telling him to back off explicitly, and I don’t blame her. She’s very junior, new to the company and possibly the work world, and a man with a higher rank is plowing past both reasonable office behavior and her soft “please stop” signals.

              Instead of blaming her for not giving a hard “no” and risking her professional reputation (because we all know how much damage a middle-aged man with hurt feelings can do), LW should follow her instincts and offer Liz *support*. Once Liz knows she has the backing of a coworker, she has more options. If she has the backing of her manager and HR as well, I’m betting that her calculation will change and she will say that hard “no, stop bothering me”.

  6. PDB*

    LW4: Is DIY an option? An office wall shouldn’t take more than a couple of hours painting time. Your real problem is covering the red with something neutral. That will require at a minimum one coat a of a primer/sealer and probably more. That means the job will strech over a couple of days.

    1. RedinSC*

      I was thinking wall paper!

      But I don’t know how difficult that would be to remove. I’ve never dealt with wall paper, but as a kid in the 70s we had wall paper in our living room that was a forest. Since LW is losing the window, they could put up a forest!

      1. Airy*

        I understand there’s even removable self-adhesive wallpaper that can be taken down when you move on; I’ve seen Bobby Berk use it on rented apartment walls in Queer Eye.

      2. Skitters*

        Stores sell removable wallpaper (mostly meant for college students) for when you aren’t allowed to paint. It just sticks over the offending wall and you peel it off later. I haven’t personally used it, but, it has decent reviews.

        1. AVP*

          I have, for a rental. It’s pretty easy to apply if you’re reasonably handy and have a ladder. Haven’t tried to peel it off, yet, though…

    2. FloralWraith*

      IMO, I wouldn’t do this in HE, or even any public sector work. I work in HE and like the above comment thread pointed out, it’s possible Estates and Facilities work is unionised and you’d get in trouble. Also, as someone in brand and PR, the colours on the walls are often quite specific, even with neutral tones!

      I’d definitely ask though.

      1. Hyaline*

        Was going to say the same. Not only might there be union issues, but the bureaucracy of the university might mean you cannot DIY something like this for liability or contract issues. It could even be a hard no to change the color. Annoying, but don’t DIY without permission in HE.

      2. cloudy*

        I also work in higher ed and our facilities group is a mix of unionized employees and contractors with heavily protected contracts, so we are not allowed to hang so much as a single picture without calling to have them do it for us.

        That said, they do repaint between people on occasion if it’s been a while, so it’s worth asking. And like Floral said, my university has very specific approved colors picked out by the brand office that they are required to follow. Especially if your office is student facing, there may be a number of rules about colors and decor and the specific design for the room may need to be approved.

      3. Keep it Simple*

        Yeah, I would not do anything like painting unless you check with the facilities chief. I would expect you won’t be allowed to because, aside from union issues, they don’t want employees doing anything that will lead to worker’s comp injuries – such as standing on a ladder with a bucket of paint.

    3. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      Having recently painted a small wall in my WFH office (going from boring beige to a lovely tropical aqua for an accent wall) I feel the need to point out that the prep work (taping edges, putting down drop cloths, etc) often takes longer than the actual painting.

      1. Junior Assistant Peon*

        If the prep work doesn’t take longer than the painting, the painter is doing a half-assed job.

        1. Emmy Noether*

          If the prep work doesn’t take longer than the painting, the cleanup will take longer than both together.

    4. Junior Assistant Peon*

      This is the kind of thing where it’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission. If you do this quietly, there’s a good chance everyone will assume it was done through official channels and no one will object. Worst-case scenario is a warning not to do it again. As others have mentioned, don’t attempt this if you’re in the kind of unionized environment where you’ll get screeched at for carrying a box yourself.

      1. cloudy*

        On top of the unionized part, higher ed institutions also often have specific vendor contracts which can be very strict so you’d need to be very careful about that and make sure those are not in play. This can mean that supplies like paint or brushes must be purchased from a specific company or they are not allowed to be used. We will get in trouble for things that would be totally benign in any other setting.

        Examples of things we have gotten in trouble for in my office:
        – Bringing in our own box of tissues or pens, which were not purchased from our Exclusive Office Supply Vendor.
        – Bringing in a bag of candy to put in a bowl in the office, which was not purchased from the Exclusive Snack Supply Vendor.
        – Hanging pictures on the wall ourselves, without calling the appropriate facilities team to handle.
        – Giving leftover construction paper and craft supplies to another unit – which did not go through the proper Property Distribution department which all items we no longer need must go through, even if it’s just $10 in single-use supplies.

        (That said, we all still do bring in our own stuff from time to time – I have my illegal computer mice because I don’t like the ones supplied and I keep a supply of better tissues in my bag – but painting a wall would be a tad bit harder to hide than secret mice and tissues.)

        1. in HE*

          I’ve worked in higher ed for my whole career (15+ yrs) and never heard of anything like this. Especially in public contexts, e.g. government, there’s real limitations around what you can use money for but nobody would bat an eye over a self-purchased box of tissues or candy.

          I’m not doubting your experience but I do want to observe that it’s not universal.

          1. cloudy*

            Oh yeah I’m sure it’s not universal – just something to watch out for as it’s the kind of thing that can take people by surprise. (It sure took me by surprise when I got scolded for keeping the good candy in the office candy bowl). We have a contract with a very particular major office supply company and they get… territorial about everything.

            Some departments disregard the rules more than others too. My previous department’s admin director was a stickler for the rules, while my current one knows when to strategically look the other way. It’s a very know-your-specific-bureaucracy kind of thing.

            (I’m at a very large state university for context.)

        2. Cinnamon Stick*

          I have allergies that, even medicated, have me consistently congested. I need my soft tissues with the lotion in them. Every box of tissues I’ve had from standard office supplies has felt like sandpaper.

        3. RedinSC*

          Oh, wow! I thought where I was working was crazy strict on things! This is a whole other level! (but then again, we’re not allowed to use tax dollars to buy klenex, so they can’t yell at us for bringing our own in).

      2. Anne of Green Gables*

        I would not advise going the “ask forgiveness, not permission” route for this in a Higher Education environment.

    5. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Yep, red is really hard to cover. A deep red even more so. I’d be doing 2-3 coats of stain blocking primer, then probably 2 coats of paint.

  7. Ratatouille*

    LW #4 I removed a bookshelf from my office at my university and they had someone come and repaint the wall it’d been nailed to. My university has a painter on staff—yours might too! I really don’t think it’ll be a big ask. Our university is ALWAYS talking about money and pinching pennies so I don’t think the cost would be prohibitive.

    Before I was hired though we had a chair who hated to spend money because his #1 priority was impressing the higher ups (I don’t think it worked). So if you are really worried about it maybe ask around to see what the environment is like.

    1. Dr. Vibrissae*

      When I moved into my office, they painted it partly because they had removed shelves, and partly because there was water damage on one wall that had to be fixed. At least at my university this would be an unexceptionable expectation, but you might get it done by facilities if you are able to put in a ticket for some other wall repair that needs to be done.

  8. couture zebra*

    LW1: It’s good you’re asking for advice, but right now, you’re part of the problem.

    First, you are downplaying how bad this manager is by a lot. Any yelling outside of an immediate safety issue is completely unacceptable, and what you are describing is a lot more than that. What has been going on has clearly been going on for a long amount of time, and the entire team has seen that the company has been unwilling to take clear, decisive action to do anything about it.

    What has been going on is HR nonsense to make it seem like they are doing something when they just don’t want to fire the manager. Let’s be clear – it’s at will employment, the manager can be fired at any point for no reason, and there’s a lot of reason here.

    And then on top of that, what shows in your letter is that you are blaming the current issues on the employees on the team – that the issue is their behavior due to the distrust – rather than the unchecked manager who knows exactly what they can get away with. You say you haven’t witnessed anything since you’ve been around, but first, what is happening when you aren’t around? No one has any reason to trust you and be honest with you about that. And second, when you been under an abuser for a long time, things that seem reasonable to an outsider carry a lot of meaning to the person being abused, so you could very likely be missing things that are happening when you are around.

    Honestly, the best thing you could do is document as much as you can and fire the manager as quickly as possible. That’s the only way that team will ever trust you. But for now, stop blaming the team for their trauma response.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Whoa, I think that’s a misreading of the letter; the LW isn’t blaming their team for their reactions at all. She clearly says she knows that what she’s seeing has been caused by Marcy’s behavior. But she also wants to try to find a way to move forward. We can debate whether or not that’s possible, but that doesn’t mean she’s blaming them.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      Where on earth did you get the impression that the employees are being blamed? OP says distinctly that the manager’s past bad behaviour “has earned this distrust” and OP specifically adds that it’s been a trauma for the staff and she doesn’t want the solution to minimise that trauma! I realise this is an alarming situation, but there’s no indication of misplaced blame.

    3. TheBunny*

      Wow.

      Did we read a different letter?

      It’s pretty clear that LW1 inherited this manager and team after the fact and is looking for ways to navigate the mess. Firing the employee isn’t an option or it would have been done already.

      FWIW LW I agree with Alison. The bulk of the work is on her to change, to make lasting changes, and to re-earn the trust of the team. I think all you can do is reinforce the positive.

      We have a similar (but by no means as extreme) situation going on at my work. There’s a new-ish employee who got off on the absolute wrong foot with a couple of people and now can do nothing right. If she sends an email someone will say it should have been a phone call, despite how the recipient of the email feels (and I speak as a one time email recipient) about how it was handled… because they are all just predisposed to find something wrong.

      We’re working on it…but we’ve told the employee that the only way this is going to successfully resolve is if the team starts to believe that SHE wants it to.

    4. Nodramalama*

      This is such a judgmental response considering lw had absolutely no role in disciplining Marcy and cannot go back in time and decide how the organisation should have dealt with it. All they’re asking is what to do now, not blaming the current employees

    5. It's me, Margaret*

      The LW didn’t say that she’s in the US either. In my country, it would be illegal to fire Marcy unless she was abusive again, and even then I’m not sure that yelling would be considered bad enough. And if you fire someone illegally, the court can and will order you to give them their job back.

      That’s not to say that marcy’s behaviour isn’t awful – I had a manager 15 years ago who yelled and NOTHING would make me work for him again – just that the company’s hands might be tied.

      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        Yes, I was looking for this. It reminds me so strongly of how my colleagues at our German office talk about their problem co-worker that I strongly suspect this is not a situation of at-will employment. I am strongly in favor of worker protections, but they do have the side effect that it can be a slow and/or expensive process to legally get rid of an employee. (Also, potentially means that it wouldn’t be straightforward for LW to walk away.)

  9. Anax*

    LW5: Agreed with Alison’s advice here, but as a potential secondary step…

    How much freedom do you have to decorate? If you’re able to put some subtle sound insulation on that wall, your neighbor might be easier to tune out. I’m particularly thinking of bookshelves – books are a great sound dampener! – but anything relatively thick and soft (like a coat rack with a winter jacket, a couch, etc.) might help lower the volume.

    I know that for me, even if it’s not silent, it helps reduce my aggravation if I’m interrupted less frequently by a sudden laugh or noise. Just being reminded that an annoying person exists can be like nails on a chalkboard for me, and cutting that from say, eight times per day to five, makes a measurable difference in my frustration level.

    If you can, maybe book a conference room for the time you know your neighbor will be having therapy or being particularly loud, and avoid that entirely.

    (Mostly in the past for me – my only office neighbor now is my S/O, who causes none of the aggravation some past coworkers have caused – but I’m probably more sensitive to noise than most people, so I have a lot of coping strategies.)

  10. TheBunny*

    #3

    It’s more a yellow flag to me, as Alison essentially said.

    Would I text at 9pm? No. Would I email? Yes. Would I expect an immediate response from my team were I to send a late email? No.

    In this case it could be indicative of no work life balance or of a great one that allowed this manager to take 4 hours in the middle of the day and work at night…or something.

    I would ask…but I’d be curious to know if the answer is “I work 7am to 11pm daily” or “I was working late because I took the afternoon off for parent teacher conferences (or whatever)”.

    Hiring managers often (and I’ve dealt with MANY hiring managers) forget the people they are talking to about a job don’t actually work for tne company yet, so they aren’t as bought in as employees, don’t know this was unusual, don’t know many things.

    So ask and pay attention to the answer. Best of luck!

    1. kalli*

      Honestly one time a hiring manager rang me at like 7:30pm on a Friday.

      “I’ll be in touch next week but didn’t want you to fret all weekend. Can you start in July?”

      1. TheBunny*

        Exactly. It’s worth finding out what is going on…but it’s not an immediate “flee the other direction”.

    2. daffodil*

      I do a little hiring for my job but mostly individual contributor stuff, so when we’re looking to hire I’m probably doing extra stuff to cover the stuff I need to hire for plus my usual work, so sometimes the hiring stuff ends up being one-off overtime, because it’s in my interest to overwork short term to solve my problem mid-to-long term. Not saying that’s what happened here, but it’s a possibility.

    3. Glen*

      “Hiring managers often (and I’ve dealt with MANY hiring managers) forget the people they are talking to about a job don’t actually work for tne company yet, so they aren’t as bought in as employees, don’t know this was unusual, don’t know many things.”

      but that’s part of the problem – it’s not reasonable to send a non-urgent text to an employee, either!

  11. Orv*

    LW4: It’s worth asking. At many universities there’s a staff for this. Painting is routine maintenance anyway, and it’s far easier to do when the office is empty. At the one I work at it’s routine to repaint whenever someone vacates an office.

    1. WellRed*

      Yes, and at 10 years since, they might be planning a refresh anyhow of the whole office so get your ask in now! (I realize universities are cheap but it’s not unreasonable to ask).

    2. Mid*

      When I worked at a university, they would typically ask the new person which of the university approved colors they wanted their walls to be at the same time they asked them which furniture they wanted (nothing fancy, it was more do you want a corner desk or straight desk, 1 guest chair or 2, 1 bookshelf or two, and did they need a locking file cabinet or just a regular one, and all requests were dependent on the furniture being available in the storage room.) Most offices got 3 walls one of two lighter shades, and one wall of one of the two bolder shades, though some people didn’t have an accent wall. It was wayyyyy easier to paint an empty office than it was to move everything out and paint when someone was occupying the office.

  12. Allonge*

    LW5 – would it be an option just to warn this person that their therapy sessions are audible in the office to others (without saying you are bothered by it)?

    Most people I imagine will not like that, so they may take some steps to avoid this.

      1. Joana*

        Same, when covid hit I was in therapy for a bit and we had to move to Zoom, I always took at least a partial day off for it. Maybe that’s not possible for OP’s coworker, but if it’s an office building, would it be possible to book a conference room that’s at least away from their coworkers?

        1. Edwina*

          When I had to do therapy from the office, I booked one of our tiny “huddle rooms” and talked very quietly. I would be so mortified if anyone could hear my therapy session. Actually, now that I think about it, any time I’ve thought being overheard was possible, I either did the session over the phone while walking outside, or I cancelled it.

      2. Aggretsuko*

        I have to do it! Therapy appointments are usually not available before or after work hours. I used to on in-office days when I had access to a private office. We have “phone booths” at this office to make Zoom and phone calls, which do appear to be soundproofed enough that I don’t hear anyone next to me in the next booth.

        Pre-Zoom, I had to wander the campus trying to find a quiet/private place outside to make a phone call. THERE WAS NOWHERE and there was always people walking by and construction going on. I didn’t drive to work, and cars are hot anyway, so there really isn’t a good place to go for that sort of thing.

    2. HarperC*

      LW knows this person better and it sounds as though she’s less than pleasant, but if I were the person doing the therapy session and others could hear, I would really appreciate someone letting me know. Maybe if you could approach it more of a “heads up” than “this bothers me”? A lot of private information could be being overheard! I wouldn’t think anyone would want that …

    3. Observer*

      would it be an option just to warn this person that their therapy sessions are audible in the office to others (without saying you are bothered by it)

      Yes, I think that this is a really good idea. Do focus on the “here’s a head’s up” because if *you* can hear it, others probably can, too. And, yes, get the headphones. They really are helpful. And it’s not unreasonable, since this is not something that’s going on all day or every day. So you don’t have to be stuck with headphones for extended periods if you don’t want to wear them.

    4. Anon for this*

      Oof, at first I wondered if this was about me because I was literally in a therapy session from my office when this question posted. I usually come in and do them on one of our work from home days, but this week’s got rescheduled and occasionally people also come in on our work from home days, so I’m always terrified that someone will here me. Booking a conference room would definitely be more visible than just staying in here and I always put on a white noise machine and close the door. I figure even if my neighbor can tell I’m talking, he probably can’t make out exactly what I’m saying? I hope?

      I can’t do it from home because my husband works from home and our walls at home are super thin, so this is the best I’ve got unfortunately. I do hope if my coworker on the other side of the wall actually could here, he’d tell me. I think we’re on pretty good terms, so I hope he would!

      1. Anon for this*

        Darn, I do know the difference between here and hear. Apparently I’m just failing at typing today!

  13. Mackenna*

    LW4: At a previous job, in some offices they had these weird laminated backplates on the walls where the built in desks joined. They went up the wall for a few feet and stopped underneath built in cabinets. The backplates were this awful pale burnt orange colour. I noticed after I worked there for a while that one of the ladies who had an office up the hall from me didn’t have the awful orange colour, she had a pleasant black and grey pattern on her backplate. I thought she had painted over it or something. This pattern changed the appearance of the entire office. It wasn’t until she resigned and was packing up her office, and I happened to walk past just as she was peeling it back off, that realised it was actually a decent quality gift wrapping paper.
    If they won’t spring for a quick paint job, are there any gift shops near you that sell reasonable quality (by that I mean, thick) gift wrap, in a suitable pattern or colour, and in sufficient quantities that you could use to simply paper over the whole wall? It would only cost a few dollars and maybe an hour of your time to tape the paper up and cover the red.

  14. Green great dragon*

    Liz is losing 30 min-1 hour every day to these conversations. Her manager should certainly be willing to help shut it down if necessary and if Liz is new to working you might mention that generally talking to one person that long every day is not usual and likely to raise eyebrows, so should feel free to discourage it on those grounds.

    I can see Liz is trying to keep working, but I can’t imagine she’s very productive in those circumstances.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yes, the fact that he’s creepy makes it a bit more egregious, but even if he weren’t creepy, he’s just wasting her time, too.

      1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

        For sure! At my last job I worked with a woman I thought of as Blah Blah; she’d stop by everyone’s cube and talk about, well, really nothing for like half an hour at a time. There wasn’t any creepy subtext, but it was a LOT, and many people were too nice to tell her they couldn’t listen right now. I had headphones and lots of third-party deadlines (and I didn’t care a ton that people probably thought I was standoffish; they were willing to work with me and that was good enough) so I didn’t get too much Blah Blah. But, I could see other people getting trapped by their own politeness every day. The creepy vibe would just make it a million times worse!

  15. PX*

    OP2: Obviously this depends on your company and country, but in my workplace, our workplace harassment policy is very very clear that you can report other people for unwanted behaviour even if you’ve only observed it and not been directly impacted. So in this case, the fact that Jack’s behaviour makes you feel uncomfortable even if it’s not directed at you would be enough to raise it and start an investigation with HR. It might be worth reviewing your current policies on this.

    If you don’t want to go that route, then aside from what Alison already recommended, you could also look into bystander intervention training. You mentioned that you feel bad not doing anything when you see this happening, and bystander intervention is often one of the most effective methods in reducing sexual harassment, so maybe getting more confident on what you *could* do to help would be beneficial.

    1. Great Frogs of Literature*

      While this is definitely true, for something like this, I wouldn’t report it without checking in with Liz. It’s uncomfortable to LW because LW perceives it as unwanted (I would, too), but I don’t get the sense that the older coworker has done anything over the line except ignoring what the LW perceives as clear “I am trying to work” signals.

      But Jack could be Liz’s uncle, and they have a comfortable “you natter at me while I work” dynamic, or whatever. (To be clear, I think LW’s interpretation is a lot more likely.) But personally, I’d be pretty mortified if I reported normal friend/relative interactions as potential harassment (and it might make Liz feel pretty uncomfortable too), and a quick double-check with Liz is an easy way to confirm that that’s not the case.

    2. Observer*

      but in my workplace, our workplace harassment policy is very very clear that you can report other people for unwanted behaviour even if you’ve only observed it and not been directly impacted. So in this case, the fact that Jack’s behaviour makes you feel uncomfortable even if it’s not directed at you would be enough to raise it and start an investigation with HR

      In the US, that’s absolutely the case, and competent HR is aware of it.

      Having said that, I do think it’s well worth it to start with talking to Liz and following her lead.

  16. Enn Pee*

    LW2 – my coworkers and I were in a similar situation, with multiple people (!) deployed over the course of a day to deflect the creep from our coworker. I’ve mentioned this before, but eventually what happened was that one of the “deflectors” actually made a sexual harassment complaint…that the creep’s harassment of a coworker was disrupting HER workday / ability to leave the office because he was harassing someone else.

    I would definitely check in with your coworker to see if she is bothered by this guy, but the only way to resolve this is to go to management. You may find yourself disrupting your own work day to deal with the creep…

    1. DawnShadow*

      Huh, that’s true. I can see a situation where the creep is like, “I didn’t have my nice morning convo at 9am with Darlene, I’ll just stop by at 9:30… 10… 10:30…. eventually she won’t be busy!

      Isn’t that what’s called extinction burst? and it doesn’t matter whether he’s consciously trying to break down her defenses or whether he’s oblivious and just trying to get his dose of attention/flirtation or if he is a stalker to be or thinks he has a chance romantically. It’s problematic behavior whatever the motivation and it needs to stop.

      Just bringing it up because they may need to realize it might take some concentrated effort before he takes his attentions elsewhere.

      1. Pizza Rat*

        You nailed it with “it doesn’t matter.” It’s the behavior and its impact that needs to be addressed.

    2. CommanderBanana*

      Oh, gross – we had That Guy at one of my jobs. I was one of 3 women in our office, but he didn’t sexually harass us – he was just a gross bully, I guess because he didn’t find any of us attractive, but he creeped on our intern and would vanish for long stretches of the day. We found out he was making the rounds of our agency campus and creeping on women in other offices. Once everyone figured out that this was the same guy, he ended up with a rack of complaints against him.

      Of course, our director was too chickenshit to do anything about it, even though this guy was 1. still in his probationary period and 2. on the lowest rung of the ladder, grade-wise. He ended up getting a letter in his personnel file that would have prevented him from managing anyone, which meant he’d never get promoted past a certain grade, so he left to go (I assume) creep on women at another govt agency where his mommy worked.

  17. Practically*

    If it’s just one wall, may I suggest buying a small can of paint and painting it yourself. One wall just needs a roller, plastic tray and tape. You can get free paint in your local buy nothing group, too, and it’s usually a white or beige.

    1. Artemesia*

      But get permission. Some places this would violate union rules; other places would have strict tules about renovating office space without permission etc.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      This is a bad idea 1) because if it’s a union thing they will notice it got painted by someone else and cause issues and 2) the wall is red. That’s a pain to paint over. We’re talking two coats of primer and two coats of paint minimum if the goal is to go from red to greige.

  18. Charley*

    I use texts more like how some people use email (not urgent, I don’t expect an immediate response), so it’s possible the hiring manager just has somewhat different norms, or they were flexing their hours, or working from a trip in a different time zone. I think there are lots of ways that their work-life balance could be fine, but you’re right to be alert to the odds that it’s not.

  19. Steve*

    I have worked with a lot of ‘yellers’ over the years – this seems to be a common problem in corporate work for some reason at least here in NYC. They aren’t necessarily yelling at *me* but I can acknowledge that the general air of complaint and demand is thick and makes going to work not just unpleasant, but combative. Worst of all, it can be contagious – it’s easy to fall into that trap if you’re not careful when you see that’s how things get done. The worst experience was my last job – the yeller there was such so arrogant that he once left me a voice mail literally screaming at me for the most minor thing. I ended up keeping and playing for friends when I’d complain about him – this way they knew I wasn’t exaggerating.

  20. Alicent*

    LW#3: I interviewed with a business owner who would text and call at inappropriate times like 9 pm or when I was at my current job that he was warned would fire me out of anger if they knew I was working. He tried to do a phone interview without warning one workday afternoon without warning. Looking back there were other warning signs like an interview that went on 13 hours with one meal (day long immersive interviews are normal in my field, but not THAT long), and expecting me to come back again before my flight home the next day that he didn’t pay for. He also was going to ask my current job for a reference despite already being told that my employment would be at risk if he did so (thankfully he mentioned it offhand).

    I’m not saying one late text is a warning, though I would look at that much more carefully than an email. I was never allowed to have personal time that couldn’t be intruded on by my boss at that job. (He was incredibly narcissistic, greedy and manipulative, but hid it extremely well)

  21. Hyaline*

    LW4, as soon as you said “higher ed” I thought, “be prepared to be told no” and for no good reason beyond “branding and bureaucracy.” Every place I’ve worked has been bizarrely strict on the design choices in buildings, down to paint color and sometimes even hanging pictures. It’s worth an ask, but if you’re told no, do NOT just DIY without permission; that can be a much bigger deal than it has any right to be (but that’s higher ed!).

    1. Keep it Simple*

      It’s a worker’s comp/liability issue. They don’t want employees standing on ladders with buckets of paint.

      1. Hyaline*

        Even if you remove all liability issues, you may still be told no because the university wants to control every element of their image, including the interior design choices.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Yeah, I thought same. OP probably won’t be allowed to do anything :/ Unless there’s some way to make red glare a medical issue?

  22. Hyaline*

    LW1–ok, so Marci has cleaned up her act. But how long has she been “improved”? I think time plays a huge role here. If it’s only been a couple months since the last yelling incident, it’s no wonder people don’t have much trust yet–they have no proof that this improvement is permanent and expect she could slip back into her old ways at any time. And related–how long was this allowed to go on? I think you have to think about the time to regain trust as directly corresponding to how long she was allowed to continue in the abusive behavior–the longer she was allowed free rein to scream at people, the longer the workplace has to be even keeled and calm before people really believe it’s going to stay that way. That means putting in the work, from Marci, you, and others, to continue to create a trusting environment, and even if you do so, it’s STILL going to be a long slog.

    If previous management wasn’t willing to go through that slog, they should have fired Marci. But they didn’t, and you say you can’t, so buckle up for a long process of building trust.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I’d be curious whether Marcy’s retraining included the idea that before she gives an opinion she should ask the opinion of her team members and listen calmly/carefully before issuing a decision? (Or educating someone new if that’s appropriate.) This particular behavior doesn’t require the underlings to make any changes and demonstrates that Marcy has learned to make changes.

      1. Jackalope*

        I’m going to be honest; if I were an employee there, no way would I give an honest opinion to Marcy right now. Too much risk of being yelled at.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          The point for Marcy is to play her cards extremely close to her vest and ask before she drops any hints about what she wants.

    2. Sara without an H*

      Good point. I’ve taken over teams that had survived bad managers, but the manager was no longer in place. In my experience, it took at least a year (longer, for some employees) before people were convinced that they could drop some of their protective behaviors, and I wouldn’t turn into Manager Mr. Hyde.

      Several commenters upstream have said that OP#1 needs to be sure that there are channels in place for employees who need to report any relapses in Marcy’s behavior. This is good advice. I’d also recommend that OP#1 spend some time developing relationships within the department — people need to know that OP#1 is trustworthy.

  23. Sorry for the analogy*

    LW1:

    I’ve had two abusive managers in my career, one of whom was a yeller, both of whom alienated the entire department, and one of whom caused our cadre to unionise (union is still there and abusive boss is not, so I guess eventually it was a good outcome). In both cases the higher ups paid lip service to listening but were pretty ineffective, though the boss that caused us to unionise was eventually removed from managing actual people. (We are not in the US so it’s hard to fire people after the six month probation, eventually upper management might have been trying to get their ducks in a row for a legal firing but of course I was not privy to that.)

    I do not think that anything short of a complete behaviour and personality change and a couple years of proof that that change was real could have repaired either manager’s relationship with their staff, and even then some employees would still probably never forgive or forget. You can’t really repair that sort of damage, realistically. Not to say that a bad manager can’t in theory learn to be a good manager, but probably never with the people they’ve hurt.

    I do think that it might be possible to make the company less toxic, because if we’d had a change of upper management I suppose I would have had a glimmer of hope at first that something might change for the better. So if it genuinely seemed that the abusive manager was being held to account and that the abused employees could go to LW1 and be heard, and they saw action taken, then maybe it might be better.

    But still never great. The manager is a cat turd in the stew, and even if you remove the bulk of the cat turd there’s still going to be a bit of cat turf in the stew.

    1. Dancing Otter*

      Yeah, even Scripture says “forgive”, not “forget.”

      I had a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad manager from whom I parted ways in 2003. When I read a couple of years later that he and his boss had been fired after the bank failed a regulatory review, schadenfreude doesn’t begin to describe the full depth of my reaction. (The proximate cause of my departure was a difference of opinion on an accounting treatment. The regulators agreed with my interpretation. Vindication!)

      As you can see by my writing this in 2024, I have in no way forgotten how horrible he was. Even 20 years later, I still think occasionally about how much my asthma and blood pressure improved when I got away from him. Hmm, maybe I didn’t do so great on the forgiveness side, either, but definitely not forgotten.

      So no, I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance of Marcy ever regaining her abused staff’s trust and good will. She shouldn’t expect it, and I don’t understand why she would want to stay even if TPTB didn’t fire her.

      1. DJ*

        > Yeah, even Scripture says “forgive”, not “forget.”

        Christian scripture also says there’s no penalty for beating your slave as long as they don’t die within a few days. Let’s not look to religion for advice.

  24. mango chiffon*

    Around LW3’s story, is it common for hiring managers to text? I’m relatively young and have only had one major job (and therefore one major job search), but everything was conducted over email and phone calls. Something about texting seems so casual and doesn’t feel right from a work standpoint, but maybe it entirely depends on the type of job?

    1. Ana Gram*

      I’ve been in public safety hiring for 10 years and texting isn’t the first way I reach out but it’s definitely the second. We hire a good amount of people right out of college and so many don’t have voicemail set up or just don’t answer emails in a timely fashion. It’s annoying but that’s the way it is. We do let them know expectations around communication if they’re hired so they can decide if they’re up to our requirements.

    2. NotAnotherManager!*

      We generally prefer not to, but we are finding that candidates increasingly do not respond to emails or VMs, only text. No one likes it, but sometimes you have to go where the candidates are.

      1. mango chiffon*

        That’s fair! Maybe this is one of my more cranky “old” person traits of mine since I want a wall between work stuff and personal life. I have separate email accounts for work/serious things and my personal/entertainment things. To me, texting seems like it’s crossing that line into my personal space, so I wouldn’t like it, but I guess others aren’t like that.

        1. LL*

          I was thinking the same thing! But I’m 40, so definitely not young anymore and I’ve heard that younger people prefer texting to any other type of communication.

          1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

            Pure anecdote, but when I was coordinating volunteers in their 20s a couple years ago (I’m 40), I rapidly learned that the only way to be sure they’d received a message was by texting/group chat. If a message was too long for text (like the full volunteer schedule), I’d email that but then also text a “please check your email;” if I needed a phone meeting, the way to coordinate that was via text. The general vibe was that it was rude to ignore texts or leave someone on read (hence that being a reliable way to get in touch), but that email and phone were somewhat supplementary or optional.

        2. daffodil*

          I feel like that about every aspect of work that isn’t hiring! Since it’s in that weird not-yet-my-job space. And because it might be in everyone’s interest to move things as quick as possible, when most of my work stuff is not particularly time-sensitive.

    3. Mid*

      Some people are really slow to respond to emails, or emails get sucked into spam, and a lot of people screen their calls and don’t answer unknown numbers, or keep their phones on DND or silent. And then I’ve found an issue with a lot of people having full voicemail boxes, so you can’t leave a message. Texting doesn’t ~feel~ the most professional, but it’s often the most efficient way to contact people.

      When I worked with a recruiter last, they asked if I preferred texting or calling, and if they could call during business hours (because many people can’t take calls from hiring managers they’re interviewing with while at their current job.) I work from home, so I didn’t mind calls during working hours. But I also appreciated that there was an option to be texted instead.

  25. Guest*

    LW3: Definitely ask what the expectations are WRT work-related communication outside of work hours. I’m like you; I function much better when I can leave work at work and am fortunate to have a job where that’s the norm. A couple of out more recent hires have tried to change that, but since they’re not management, all they’ve gotten was pushback.

  26. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

    OP4 (office repainting) Given the background, I would leave this alone. The context is: staffing changes, priority changes, budget issues, maybe restructuring etc. I think starting this new role and then immediately being focused on not liking the office decor rather than presumably the issues OP is expected to address in a senior capacity, is going to look like (and potentially actually is) focusing on the wrong things.

    1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      What a weird take. The idea that a senior leader can’t do 2 things at once is… well, it’s something.

      OP, ignore this. You are allowed to care about/focus on your workspace. Merely asking if a wall can be repainted is not announcing the Theme of the School Year, for pete’s sake.

      1. daffodil*

        agree, and if you don’t address it right away it’s easy to keep putting it off indefinately, when it would be a relatively small effort fix for an ongoing quality-of-life improvement.

    2. I Have RBF*

      I’m sorry, but it is perfectly reasonable to not want to work in an office with a big red wall. Yes, a newly senior person is allowed to loathe a glaring red paint job.

      Sure, office design “professionals” think red is an “active” color or some such BS, and don’t understand why someone would hate working in a red walled room. But having worked in an open plan with red walls, I can honestly say that the red made me angry, not energized. It’s reasonable to want it gone.

      The best time to paint is before she gets moved in. The second best is before she gets settled in.

      1. Artemesia*

        I love red walls — painted our bedroom at our last two places moroccan red, but can imagine someone else might not like it. ‘This color really gives me a headache — is it possible to have it repainted something neutral? is a reasonable request which then escalates to – could I do it myself then if there is no staff that does this sort of thing.

        1. allathian*

          You can’t argue about matters of taste. I prefer my office walls to be as neutral as possible, painter’s white by preference, or failing that, greige.

          Looking at that red wall all day would make me angry, too.

          I know that colors affect mood and energy levels, but I’d resent the feeling of being manipulated if I had to work in an “energetic” workspace. It’s already bad enough that one wall in our break room is painted orange. I always try to sit with my back to it if I can.

  27. Trixie the Great and Pedantic*

    I don’t have a lot of advice for LW 4, but “greige” is a perfect word for that color.

    1. Artemesia*

      At our last condo I painted our bedroom ‘soul suck grey’ which is my word for that color — hated it so much that I hired the building engineer to paint it moroccan red. I don’t know what I was thinking when I picked the ‘greige’ as neutral — we hated it so much on the walls.

  28. M2*

    4 I would also say if you’re able to pay for a couple plants. My partner moved (also with a promotion) from an office with windows to an internal office and having plants really helped. They also bought an air purifier because honestly the air was not great. This helped a lot. Again they had to pay for it themselves but the plants they looked at local places or even home dept has them. They did some research about those that clean the air/ good energy and easy to take care of if gone for awhile.

  29. Bookworm*

    Letter #1

    I’m really surprised the abusive manager is still working at this company. I wonder why? Did she have excellent skills otherwise? Or could they not find someone to replace her? I once worked with a very toxic manager ages ago. Higher ups acknowledged there was an issue, but said they couldn’t find anyone to replace her.

    1. Industry Behemoth*

      I’m only guessing here. Maybe the employer needs to offer a new hire more money for Marcy’s position, but can’t or won’t.

      Or they’re trying to get Marcy to a stage where she could depart gracefully. I kinda doubt Marcy’s near retirement, because I’d think LW would have said so if they knew that for a fact.

      Or another employee recommended or insisted on hiring Marcy, and and firing her would make that person look bad.

    2. Anon4This*

      I have someone like this on my current team – not a screamer, but someone who does not foster a supportive and productive environment and was running through staff like water. They are still here because they possess an extremely rare expertise in a niche market, and there may be 12 people in the entire US who could do the job. (Believe me, we’ve tried to recruit them.) There is not a training program for the specific niche they fill, and we don’t have anyone else internally who could train and too much business to take a hit with firing them (and the big bosses don’t care as long as the money is rolling in, just those of us stuck in the middle). We initially tried to have this person train someone so they had a backup when they went on vacation, and that went poorly. I have yet to figure out if they are simply awful at explaining things to people or if they are maliciously knowledge-hoarding to keep themselves invaluable. I think it’s a little of both.

      Ultimately, they were relieved of any supervisory responsibilities and put into a subject-matter expert position where they are only allowed to interact with people above the in the food chain – the ones who are insistent that we can’t fire them. I don’t care if they are rude to those folks, they should have to see what they’re insisting we cannot live without first-hand.

      This specific group is a complete anomaly with the rest of the organization and the rest of my team. No one else behaves like this, and HR would fire this person in a minute if the big bosses weren’t interfering (because this person keeps our largest client very, very happy). The staff is actually doing quite well because they don’t have to deal with them anymore, but the middle management who’s holding back the dragon is exhausted. I’m about halfway into a plan to finally get them out the door and cover the work, and I cannot wait until all the stars align.

      1. It’s A Butternut Squash*

        I’m so curious what kind of market or niche this is if you are comfortable sharing. Whenever I hear things like “only 11 people in the country do this” I wonder how I become that irreplaceable. Not so I can scream at people at work.

      1. It’s A Butternut Squash*

        No one here is blaming the victim. OP is not allowed to fire this person and is doing their best to handle things under the circumstances. Crappy management asking employees to suck this up to get work done isn’t blaming the victim, it’s just bad management. And the commenters here certainly are not victim blaming.

    4. It’s A Butternut Squash*

      It could be someone with really unique skills but I think this is much more likely to be just bad management. First, because I think it’s very rare that skills are actually so impossible to find or teach that it justifies putting up with this level of behavior. And second because I’ve seen this a depressing number of times with my own or friends careers, where a mediocre director of merchandising or product marketing (both very common skill sets in our area) is kept on for years and put through anger management when they very obviously should have been fired the first time they screamed at someone.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        My impression is that managers are people who are to be kept at all costs (and by costs I mean, revolving door of employees under said manager) and it’s “better” to, at most, run them through a class or something.

  30. dulcinea47*

    LW#1, there’s really nothing you can do to get people to trust Marcy now. IF she continues her improved behavior, people will eventually stop walking on eggshells. I’d be afraid that any attempt on Marcy’s part to speed up the process is going to be awkward and make things worse.

  31. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    LW1 – My manager was a lot like Marcie when I first started working with them. (We’ve been working together for over a decade now.) After years of it being a tense, low-trust, volatile relationship, they were able to successfully get things to a better place.

    Here’s what worked:
    – First and most importantly, my manager WANTED to be a better manager. They knew what they were doing wasn’t working, but they didn’t know how to fix it and they actively wanted help and feedback.
    – Sustained, long-term investment in accountability from their manager/the CEO. This included regular (initially quarterly, now every six months) check-ins with me, my manager’s other direct reports, and their peers where the CEO sought feedback, and followed through with visible action. The CEO also proactively looked for places to observe my manager’s behavior directly, gave positive feedback where warranted, and intervened where necessary.
    – Sustained, long-term investment from HR in improving the situation. This included regular, mandatory coaching for my manager.
    – Both my manager and all of their direct reports got six months of 1-1 management coaching from an external coach who was SO awesome. This helped to talk through specific challenges I had in managing up, forced me to have the hard upward feedback conversations with my manager, and helped give me skills to avoid replicating the toxicity with my team. But, this also only worked because I had HR and the CEO’s backing – management coaching wouldn’t have been sufficient on its own.
    – The other key ingredients were time and the expectation (which the CEO set) that it would be two steps forward/one step back at first. It took three years to get to a place where I could trust that the problem was resolved, but I saw so much improvement within a few weeks that I was willing to give it that time.

    I’d guess the total investment in fixing the issue was maybe 5% of the CEO’s time for 3-4 years, 5% of HR’s time for 3-4 years, $20,000 in management coaching expenses, and 5% of my and their other direct reports’ time for 3-4 years. It was worth it in our context because a) my manager is C-suite so toxicity there has broader impacts; b) my manager is extremely skilled at the non-management aspects of their role and was very willing to learn to be a better manager; and c) this all happened during a time of enormous growth and cultural upheaval in my org so it was partially about fixing a management problem, but also about building a more sustainable culture overall. I think firing and replacing them would have had more negative impacts and it was the right call for the org to make the investment in their management skills, but it was a huge lift and probably wouldn’t be worth it in most contexts.

  32. A Book about Metals*

    For #5 it sounds like you already dislike your colleague, so I think just using headphones is a much better idea than saying anything to them. Why stir sh_t for no reason?

    2. Hroethvitnir*

      Personally I’d feel somewhat obliged to warn them they could be heard, because it’s likely to not just be me.

      Since the LW has sat through at least one session I think that ship has sailed and headphones/white noise are the way to go.

  33. whimbrel*

    LW2: I work with a Jack equivalent. He often spends a great deal of time chatting with a Liz-equivalent in another section, as they both participate in a sport – Jack as a parent, Liz as a coach. I’ve suggested she mention it to her manager if it gets disruptive, but I’ve also offered to call her if I notice that he’s been hanging out for some time to give her an easier out via answering the phone, if she doesn’t want to spend the time navigating being ‘polite’ to extract herself from a convo.

    It’s more frustrating than creepy for my office’s Liz, though, so ymmv but if she is only bothered at the time being taken, a phone call could be a good relatively anonymous option.

  34. She of Many Hats*

    For LW 2, can we offer a couple of Alison-style scripts that the LW can offer Liz to use with Jack? As junior staff and a woman, the tendency would be to soften the message too much to be really effective and having a script that would be effective and professional especially as it appears Jack is using Weaponized Niceness to impose himself on Liz.

  35. urguncle*

    Having worked under a Marcy, her continued employment signals to me that the behavior is condoned. If screaming and intimidation aren’t grounds for dismissal (or at least a planned offboarding), what is? My Marcy just took any opportunity that involved working with more junior employees, or people who had just started, to be abusive. Maybe she stopped yelling, but she was obsessed with exerting her power over someone, even if it was as simple as continuously rejecting drafts of a project with very little feedback or finding reasons to delay someone’s promotion.

    1. CommanderBanana*

      ^^ This. Also, ever notice how some people are tolerated, while other people would get canned for behavior even approaching that level of egregiousness?

      I had a former boss who was so rancid that the HR director would warn anyone coming in for an interview in her department about her and tell them they really shouldn’t take the job.

      This org had no problem firing other people on pretty flimsy pretexts, but she not only still works there, she actually took another job and then returned after the new job didn’t tolerate her horrible behavior!

    2. Just Thinkin' Here*

      Agreed. At this point it’s scorched earth. I would never trust that manager again and given that the company has backed this person by keeping them, my resume is back out on the web and I’m looking. The folks who are there are most likely people where there aren’t many options left because anyone who did have options has already fled.

      OP won’t find a fix until that manager is gone, and the damage the manager has done is costing them way more than the company realizes in lost productivity and high turnover.

  36. Tiredofit all*

    LW4 — If your building is a union building, you likely won’t be allowed to paint it yourself. Your employer will have to a pay a union painter.

  37. EA*

    OP 4, I think saying the paint color makes your head hurt sounds weirder than just asking politely if it would be possible to paint the office before you move in. It doesn’t seem like a strange request, especially if it’s been ten years since it was last painted, and saying stuff like “red walls make my head hurt after five minutes” seems more diva-ish and dramatic to me.

    1. LookAtMeI'mTheManagerNow*

      I agree, the way the letter is written makes it seem silly, but “hey I noticed the walls aren’t in great shape; can the office be repainted before I move my stuff in?” is totally reasonable.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Yeah but if you don’t specify wanting them repainted all to the one neutral color, there’s a chance they repaint it exactly as it is now.

  38. Academic glass half full*

    higher education-no money. Just paint it yourself as part of your move in. so it on a Saturday so fumes can dissipate.

    1. Aggretsuko*

      I wonder if getting wallpaper stickers (apparently that’s a thing) would be permitted, preferably if you could remove it later, since it’d be on your own dime. However, given university permissions, I’d guess that might not be either.

      Hang up a large piece of fabric on the wall?

  39. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    Has Marcy apologized to staff or made a commitment to them to improve? Has she taken accountability for her poor behaviour and acknowledged that it was inappropriate and unacceptable? Or has she just stopped yelling, without saying anything to anyone about it?

    Doing those things doesn’t solve the problem, but it’s an important first step. Why would anyone believe she’s really changing if she hasn’t said that she knows her actions were wrong?

  40. Chirpy*

    #2 – interrupting the guy with a question for Liz can work really well. I used to work with an elderly volunteer who was clearly lonely, but his conversations with me became extreme and was affecting my work (one time I couldn’t get away from him for TWO HOURS). After that, we had a system in the office where someone would call me “because they needed me to do something” after 10 minutes. He was a little grumpy (“boy, they really can’t do anything without you!”) but it solved the problem.

  41. SpringIsForPlanting!*

    THE KARMA! This is what you get for being consistently rude to your coworkers: People are unwilling to tell you you have spinach in your teeth/everyone can hear your Zoom therapy.

  42. Bast*

    #3 — I agree with Alison’s assessment that an email would be less concerning than a text, and to really pay attention during the interview. I’ve gotten plenty of emails outside of normal business hours, but texts and calls are slightly more alarming (unless, of course, you arrange to be called outside of standard business hours). There is something more intrusive and personal about a text vs. an email. The ONLY people who have attempted to call/text outside of standard business hours had boundary issues and continued to press me to make a quick decision after the interview because they, too, “really wanted someone to start soon.” They refused to accept that I needed a couple of days to think it over (interview was on a Friday, and they harassed me all weekend with texts and calls urging me to make a quick decision, despite me asking for them to give me until Monday). If this vibe continues at all — especially if you go and they continue to press you with calls and emails and texts after — run.

  43. LHOI*

    Came here to say this–if they don’t have a dedicated painting staff, I’m sure there are maintenance folks who would just come by and slap up some paint. I would bet repainting the office an Institutional White of whatever variety they buy in bulk would cost essentially $0, so it can’t hurt to ask.

  44. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

    LW#4: Not sure if it’s already been mentioned, but there are lots of great peel-and-stick wallpaper options out there. Many are renter-friendly so they are designed not to ruin the wall.

    1. Aggretsuko*

      I was thinking this would be easiest to do, by far. Still might require university permission, though.

  45. Nancy*

    LW4: Yes, you can ask, but the answer may very well be no if all offices are supposed to be painted the same way. But it’s fine to ask whether repainting the wall so it matches the others is an option.

    Do not repaint it on your own. If it has to stay, see if you can rearrange the office so larger furniture covers it and/or your desk faces away from it.

  46. RJ*

    It depends on the way it’s said. I suffer from bad migraines that can be triggered by certain colors-red, bright orange, hot pink, anything like that. Especially if you have to look at that color for 8 hours 5 days a week. It’s not dramatic or being a diva to tell management how bright or loud colors trigger headaches (if that is the case).
    So if LW4 is actually getting headaches from this color, it should be ok for her to mention this. OP, if they won’t paint over it or allow you to paint, I like other commenter’s suggestions of putting up artwork or hanging one of those beautiful tapestries on the wall. Tbh, I would probably go that route instead of painting because I would like the nice scenery. And you can change it up with different scenes.

    1. RJ*

      Nesting fail. This was supposed to be a reply to the person that said mentioning headaches would sound diva-ish and dramatic.

  47. Nancy*

    LW3: Just ask about work life balance and expectations. I send emails at odd hours sometimes because we have a very flexible schedule, and I am a late night person. If texting was standard at my workplace, I could see myself sending one at 9pm forgetting that many people would view it as odd.

  48. Stressed.*

    LW4 if you can’t paint, consider using curtains to cover the wall. You can use a tension rod to hang them and even avoid holes in the wall. Good luck!

  49. Elsa*

    LW2 – in a previous job, I had a colleague who was very nice and well meaning, but once he stopped talking to you he just never, ever stopped. Here were the things my friends and I would do to rescue each other. First, if I was stuck in the middle of a conversation then a friend would text or email me right on the spot saying “do you want me to rescue you?” Then if yes, sometimes the friend would come over and interrupt, but other times she’d just walk out of the room and call me on the phone. And then I’d be like “Oh sorry, I have a phone call, gotta go!”

  50. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    I thought it would be about rebuilding a team after an abusive manager left and was replaced. That is hard enough.

    The truth is when a manager gets away with behavior like that and stays a manager – not much can be done to build the team back. It might be possible if Marcy was leading the charge to do the rebuilding, but unless she is completely owning the mistakes she made and publicly making amends, trust is not going to happen. There is not a lot LW can do. It has to come from Marcy

    It is a deep betrayal by the company to let a manager get away with behaviour like that. Especially since I bet most of the team feels they would have been fired for lesser transactions.

  51. Cordelia*

    LW5 – I would tell her “just as an fyi, unfortunately I can sometimes hear you through the wall when you are on a zoom call”. If she’s just moved rooms, she presumably doesn’t know she can be overheard, and however much you dislike her, it’s pretty unkind not to tell her.

  52. Alexis Moira Rose*

    LW#1: Sorry you have to deal with this. It sounds like you have no control over the issue. The people working under the yelling manager have every right not to trust her, or the company, anymore, after being repeatedly verbally abused and having her continue to work in a management position. Habitually shouting and berating your employees is not something that can be fixed with coaching, and someone who is willing to exert power and control out in the open will find quieter ways to berate and belittle their employees behind closed doors, surely. This manager cannot be trusted, and if I were you, I’d question the leadership culture as well, this is a red flag.

  53. Seen Too Much*

    OP2 – I am in HR – you may not think it, but this is sexual harassment. It doesn’t have to make Liz uncomfortable – it is making you uncomfortable. I would suggest you speak with HR. They will speak to both Liz and Jack, and anyone else who would have seen/heard the conversations.

    What people don’t remember about harassment is, it’s not just the people involved, it is the bystanders. If you can hear/see it, and it makes you uncomfortable, it is harassment. Don’t wait until it gets worse.

    1. I should really pick a name*

      Before even talking to Liz?

      As described, the content of the conversations are fairly innocuous. It only gets into problem territory if Liz doesn’t want to participate in the conversations. If she’s fine with it, the LW being uncomfortable isn’t relevant.

      If the content of the conversations was problematic, then that would be a different situation.

  54. Kat828*

    LW #2 Before you accuse men of displaying “creepy” behavior, it sounds to be he was trying to have friendly chit chat. Why do we have to assume all males who want to chat with younger females are creeps?? maybe he was just being friendly, but I don’t know the circumstances, just basing off your letter.

    1. Rainy*

      Why are we still doing backflips to excuse men who exploit the power differential of seniority to creep on young women?

      1. Artemesia*

        Yeah it is in the comment ‘ males who want to chat with younger females’ — that is in and of itself creeping. This isn’t a guy who chats everyone up to avoid work or because he is just that friendly. The guys who massage co-workers shoulders are usually not doing that to the guys either.

    2. Observer*

      Why do we have to assume all males who want to chat with younger females are creeps??

      We’re not. Because the fact that this guy is dealing with a young woman who could be his daughter, age-wise is only *one* of the facts in this letter.

      The first crucial piece is that he “insists” on talking to her – for 15-20 minutes at a time! And doing so when she is clearly working.

      He’s almost certainly using the power differential that comes with age and seniority in the organization. Which is bad enough on its own. When it’s used to basically steamroll her it’s even more gross. Even if all he wants is some “friendly chit chat”, why is it even close to acceptable for him to insist on getting that *from her* even though she clearly does NOT want to be having this (totally NOT) friendly chit chat?

      It’s not ok to steam roll people, insist on “friendliness” from people who are not interested, and in general to enforce ones personal wants onto other people. Yes, even if it’s not sexual. So, his behavior is gross and creepy whether or not it’s “just friendly chit-chat” he wants, or something else.

      1. Anon5657*

        Ok, if the female coworker expressed that she did not want to chat with the person, and he continued to insist, then that is wrong. But she has to be very direct. I find that men don’t take clues too well.

        I have plenty of older male coworkers who I have friendly chats with and don’t find weird at all so wasn’t sure if that was just me.

  55. The Other Dawn*

    RE: #1

    I’ve been in this situation before. At a previous company we had an EVP who was a pretentious, arrogant, condescending asshole who would often yell very loudly at his direct reports (thankfully I wasn’t one of them!). Every single word could be heard through closed doors all the way down the hall. He made grown men cry, that’s how bad he was. I was a VP at the time and spoke up to my boss and the CEO about how disruptive and obviously WRONG it was. The CEO any my boss talked to him and he improved. Although he apologized, the damage had been done. No amount of apologizing would convince us he’d changed or was even sincere. We continued to work around him and distrust him.

    All that to say, I don’t think having Marcy apologize would be useful. She’s broken trust, everyone is likely still afraid of her and that she’ll explode at any hint of something that annoys her or the smallest mistake. When our EVP apologized, no one believed him. We all knew, or assumed, he’d been told he needed to apologize. We knew it wasn’t sincere. And even if it was, how long would this reformed behavior last? I think the only change Marcy has of regaining anyone’s trust, or at least making it so people aren’t scared to approach her, is to consistently show she’s not that raging, screaming manager anymore.

Comments are closed.