should I promote an employee who doesn’t get along with coworkers?

by Alison Green on September 24, 2024

A reader writes:

I am a general manager of two quick service restaurant locations. Running two locations has left me stretched very thin. Last September, I lost my assistant general manager, who helped me with all the day-to-day to make sure things ran smoothly at both stores.

Now enter my employee Abby. Abby is a shift supervisor at one location and the most senior employee besides me. Abby is an extremely dedicated and reliable worker. She is efficient at her job, but she lacks formal manager experience. She is also immature and instigates drama. Almost any and all drama, whether between other workers or our customers, usually has her at the center of it. She has bullied people in the past and would talk unprofessionally about coworkers. I have sat down with her several times and coached her on how to talk with her teammates and have seen slow improvement. I believe the team I have now does respect her, and much of the drama has subsided. However, I am now in the market to hire for the assistant general manager position, which she has has been clear she wants and believes she deserves. If I hire someone new, it would devastate her and she would regress to her formal unprofessional self and potentially quit. But I hesitate to offer her the promotion due to her past transgressions. Her feelings surrounding this have caused me to leave a position I desperately need filled empty for several months. Do I offer her the promotion and risk her going on a power trip and reverting back to her bullying ways? Or do I simply hire someone new who is qualified and let the cards fall where they will?

I answer this question — and two others — over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

Other questions I’m answering there today include:

  • Can employers reject candidates because clients might be biased against them?
  • Explaining to contacts why I’m job searching again after six months
You may also like:
{ 142 comments }

{ 142 comments… read them below }

  1. Alan*

    You can’t coach character. You just can’t. At best you can coach people into suppressing their character when it’s to their advantage.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      In all my years of both teaching and managing and training, there are a lot of situations that I can fix, but I can’t fix character issues: lying, apathy, laziness. Communication skills, comprehension, math, organization, etc., are all highly coachable. But someone who lies? Or steals? Nope.

      2. Freya*

        This. In my dance teaching hobby, the people I look at to promote from class attendee to staff are not necessarily the best dancers – I can teach that, if it’s needed for the job I ask them to do – but they ARE the people who want to help instead of standing around gossiping while I work.

    3. Successful Birthday Rememberer*

      Exactly. She has a character issue that is going to get worse when she has power from being a manager. It blows my mind that this was even a question. But I suppose it’s insightful into how people like Abby end up getting into managerial positions.

    4. MigraineMonth*

      I disagree; I think a lot of inherent character traits are context-dependent. Honest people lie, cheat and steal in certain circumstances. Most people gossip if they are put with a group that gossips and don’t gossip if they are put with a group that doesn’t gossip. Our behavior when we’re relaxed and secure is far different from our behavior when we’re defensive and stressed. Not to mention, there’s the process of maturing with the help of teachers, mentors, therapy or AAM advice.

      For example, I struggled with drama-stirring, sending rude emails and insubordination at my first professional job. I didn’t have any of those issues at my second professional job. Is the latter my “true character”, and the first was just a reflection of the toxic company culture?

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        There are always exceptions, sure.

        But also, in this case, you are the person who decided to change your behavior. This letter is not Abby writing in saying “how do I change this aspect of myself?”; this is Abby’s boss writing in to say “Abby has these terrible character flaws, but she shows up on time. Should I promote her?” Those two situations, along with your own, are all completely different situations.

        1. Gawaine42*

          I’m paying the price with my own career right now for some people who were promoted before they were ready, so it’s hitting a sore spot.

          It’s very tricky to discipline someone after you have given them significant positive feedback, and if putting them in a new role will cause you pain, it’s not worth it.

          1. Alternative Person*

            Solidarity from me. I had to switch tracks recently because of someone who was promoted too quickly and it’s been a change.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        People can change their own character when they see a real need for it, but you can’t do it for them. So, for example, Abby wants this job and is willing to do things OP’s way on the surface, but she’s not really convinced she has to change her bullying character for it. She’s “subsided” drama for the moment, because she thinks a big reward is around the corner, but she’s made it clear she “deserves” it and that the ceasefire is over the moment she’s disappointed. That’s simply more of the exact same bullying than she’s done in the past because she’s trying to force someone to do as she wants. If she were to undergo a really dramatic loss that she would blame herself for, or if she were to somehow see that you can’t hold people to ransom, she may be more willing to make real internal changes, but for obvious reasons OP can’t do much of that work for her; they can do little more than give her natural consequences like letting her lose her chance at this job.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          she’s made it clear she “deserves” it and that the ceasefire is over the moment she’s disappointed. That’s simply more of the exact same bullying than she’s done in the past because she’s trying to force someone to do as she wants.

          YES. This was my thought exactly. There is nothing here to indicate she’s truly changed. I would love to know what happened.

      3. mondaymoos*

        Thank you for saying this.
        I was not in a great place as a younger person. I had a lot of things to work through, and some of that I did in a reasonable time frame with the help of therapy, and some things… I mean, truly and honestly, I just woke up one day in my mid-20s and finally realized that being mean, being selfish, telling lies… these are not personality traits. There’s something to be said for that final development of the brain.

        1. Reluctant Mezzo*

          And yet promoting someone who still has the problem? The OP will lose all the rest of their workers.

      4. Alpacas Are Not Dairy Animals*

        Yeah. I’d go so far as to say character traits don’t exist so much as character tendencies do. And the ones that have changed for me have never changed from conscious choice but from slow evolution.

    5. Orv*

      A lot of the responses to this question seem to hinge on whether it’s possible for a bully to truly reform. Can a leopard change its spots?

      1. AngryOctopus*

        Yes, but you have to see a sustained pattern of the new behaviors, including through challenging times that might have set them off before. “I have seen slow improvement but she’ll revert if she doesn’t get this promotion” is definitely not that.

        1. Green great dragon*

          If she reacts well and graciously to not getting the promotion, I might consider her for promotion in future (I’m not clear on the timeline but possibly LW was overstretched even before their assistant manager left, and there could be space for a deputy assistant?).

          Right now, no.

      3. AcademiaNut*

        Sometimes, definitely. But it’s also really common for good behaviour, particularly after disciplining or done in hopes of a reward, to be temporary, and the person to fall back into old habits.

        And sometimes the reformation is genuine and persistent, but you need to move to a new job to reap the benefits, because it can be really hard to shake a deserved reputation for bad behaviour or poor performance, particularly the type that hurts other people. It’s a bit like going to serious therapy after your partner has left you – the benefit is going to the next partner, not to repairing the old relationship.

      4. Ellie*

        I believe people can change, I believe there are many good workers who are a bad fit for their particular role, but would thrive in a different one, and I believe, and have seen, people coached out of bad behaviour.

        However, putting someone with a history of bad behaviour into a position of authority over others is a fairly risky prospect. The impression I got from the letter was that OP’s strongest argument in favour of promoting them was that they would leave if they didn’t. That’s a terrible reason to promote someone. A promotion shouldn’t come as a reward for good behaviour, it should come because you genuinely believe they would do a good job and are the best person for it. It doesn’t sound like this person is anywhere near that level.

    6. not an expert*

      Wholeheartedly disagree. Of course people can change and learn; there’s been many such examples on this site where a change in perspective has lead to a change in behavior and improved understanding of and interaction with colleagues, bosses, and subordinates. It’s unfair to others to believe that anyone with conflicts in the office has some sort of immutable character flaw that puts them beyond help.

      OPs fear of regression and the continued drama indicate that in this situation, this person is not ready for a GM role. I think Alison’s advise was spot on.

      1. Kevin Sours*

        That’s the kicker. OP knows that the answer is already and is a better place than us to figure it out. Some writers are asking Alison for advice. Some are asking for permission.

      2. amoeba*

        Yup, I agree. In general, yes, I do believe people can and do change. And it seems like Abby has actually shown some change, which is great! But it also seems obvious from the letter that it’s not nearly enough/sustained long enough yet.

    8. Hyaline*

      IDK, I think you can point out and more importantly demonstrate qualities you’d like to see others take on; sometimes people, especially early on in life, just haven’t had the right guidance and role models. This is probably rarer than just choosing to be that way, but I do believe that people can change, and mentors can help them do so.

      But in this case, so much hinges on “are the temporary changes I see permanent” and the only real test for that is time and shifting situations which put pressure on Abby to show if she’s truly grown. You can’t guess on that; IMO, if she doesn’t get promoted but shows continued positive character, that would be an excellent sign that NEXT time an opportunity arises, she may be ready.

    9. Emily*

      “You can’t coach character.” That is such, such a good point. Promoting Abby would almost certainly be a disaster, and if I was one of the other employees and knew about Abby’s behavior, I would start job searching.

  2. Putting the Dys in Dysfunction*

    Try looking at it this way:

    Short term benefit — having a dedicated person take on a position that you desperately want filled

    Long term downside — perpetual drama, unhappy and abused employees who likely don’t perform as well as they should with a non-toxic manager and don’t stay very long, plus frequent management headaches for OP

    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      In addition – said unhappy and abused employees will quit. You are in hospitality, people will leave a toxic job and move on to the next one. Then not only do you have a terrible manager, you have to hire a new workforce.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        This was my first thought, as well. Abby’s promotion is going to mean that people leave, either because Abby got promoted (why would you promote someone who causes drama and is still causing drama?) or because she has a larger platform to bully people.

    2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      Ultimately OP would be promoting the person who he feels is saying, “If you don’t let me have that I will hold my breath until I turn blue.”
      Proving she deserves the promotion is one thing. That is where she shows OP that she can be a strong, mature effective employee.
      She is proving she can do the job, but she is simply demanding she gets it or she will not be a good employee.
      How much of the “less drama” is because people who didn’t want to work with her left and the people who came in feel that you would choose her over anyone else, so they toe the line and keep her happy/keep out of her way?

    3. Gamer Girl*

      Exactly. The worst bully I ever dealt with was a restaurant manager. And the two other managers who laughed along with him and enabled him (two middle aged women). He was studying criminal justice to become a cop, he definitely knew better and used his position and field of study to cover his tracks. He typically hid what he was really doing in plain sight (grabbing my arms to “help” me make food while also grinding against me from behind, eg).

      It was hell. One of my top three life regrets is staying in that job, but I was a teenager and felt, at the time, that it was somehow my fault. And when I tried to tell the GM, the response that I got was that “… but he’s my best manager. Are you SURE that’s really what happened?” :/

      This kind of thing is so, so triggering for me. I cannot understand, as someone who has managed people for years now, why owners tolerate these shenanigans. There’s always the possibility that a new hire turns out to be like Abby, but you just… fire them. This is not that difficult, and the rest of the team will see that you take their concerns seriously and, in turn, give even more of their best. It is an absolute no brainer. Allowing this kind of behavior if people are “hard workers” is exactly why no one else wants to work there. Fire the drama llama and stop tolerating this behavior and see if morale and retention goes up.

  3. bamcheeks*

    I’m quite amused that the You May Also Like algorithm has decided that the common factor here is “Abby” and just has multiple stories of Abby being unhinged.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      That happens fairly often, particularly with names that are used a bit less often. Really common letter names like Fergus or Wakeen don’t trigger it, but something like Abby does.

  4. sheworkshardforthemoney*

    I worked with an Abby. When she was promoted, several good workers including myself quit. The ones who remained were either her favourites or people who couldn’t afford to be out of work. No one had any respect or confidence in an owner who allowed the situation to fester. If you lose her, you may find other employees who can step up without the added drama.

  5. Polly Hedron*

    Do not promote Abby, and if she reverts to her previous bullying, fire her immediately without any more coaching.

    1. Goldenrod*

      Managers, please don’t hire or promote bullies! These people will create dysfunction, destroy morale and drive away your high performers. It’s the worst decision possible.

  6. Caramel & Cheddar*

    “Abby is an extremely dedicated and reliable worker. She is efficient at her job, but she lacks formal manager experience. She is also immature and instigates drama. Almost any and all drama, whether between other workers or our customers, usually has her at the center of it.”

    I think “immature and instigates drama” contradicts the “reliable worker” aspect of this, unless your definition of “reliable” means “reliably causes problems.” I’m not saying that to pick on LW’s word choice, just that AAM gets so many letters where we’re assured someone is great in the first sentence despite all evidence to the contrary. How does the letter read when you remove that initial sentence, LW? Is it clarifying about what’s truly going on when you do?

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      So many people forget that technical expertise is only one part of the job’s requirements. “Soft skills” are crucial even if they’re often not mentioned in a job description.

      1. Goldenrod*

        “Soft skills” are crucial even if they’re often not mentioned in a job description.”

        Yes, THIS. And I would add that being able to get along with people and earn their trust is actually a CORE skill of successful management, not a “nice to have.”

      2. NotAnotherManager!*

        Yes, my husband had a boss for years who insisted that she could do nothing about his jackass of a coworker because said coworker successfully fulfilled the technical/skill requirements of his role. Drove me nuts – she had a number of other management philosophies that sent me into a that’s-not-how-any-of-this-works spiral, including management by group email rather than direct conversation with the sole offender.

        My job descriptions and evaluation criteria specifically have a teamwork/client service requirement that you can work professionally and productively with your coworkers and the customers. It does not matter how good you are at your job in my line of work if you have no customers and no one who wants to work with you on endeavors bigger than your capacity.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      This. We see this a lot, and that bit about taking out the first line of praise and then evaluating it says a lot. Because they often say that an employee is “great” in a very general way, but then list very specific deficiencies in this person’s performance.

    3. Statler von Waldorf*

      I think in this case that the “reliable worker” probably refers to Abby regularly showing up to work and doing her job in an efficient and reliable fashion. In some industries, especially the service industry, this can be a rare thing and is a valuable trait to have in an employee. I did the books for a restaurant for a few months to cover a maternity leave, and even second hand I heard about how much of a nightmare the scheduling was. I can understand why the LW feels like they are stuck between a rock and a hard place, because I agree that Abby probably will quit if she doesn’t get what she wants.

      However, none of that is diametrically opposed to Abby having poor soft social skills and probably being a poor choice to promote to manager. Both can be true at the same time. Reliable and mature are not the same thing.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      Yes. I know people call them “soft skills” but just because there are primary school children who have already mastered good interpersonal skills, doesn’t mean they can afford to be taken for granted with adults. They are like oxygen; not noticed or recognised unless by their absence.

    5. Pescadero*

      Skills necessary for working in fast food, ranked by priority:

      1) Shows up for shifts
      2) Shows up for shifts
      3) Shows up for shifts
      4) Shows up for shifts
      …
      50) Can actually do the job
      …
      99) Gets along with co-workers and behaves professionaly toward customers.

    6. NotAnotherManager!*

      Yeah, it reminds me of the whole, “Someone who’s nice to you but rude to the wait staff is not a nice person.” mantra.

        1. allathian*

          There are also some companies where receptionists are asked for their impressions of candidates before hiring, and they don’t hire people who are routinely rude to admin staff.

    7. JB*

      If she’s going to be managing people she needs to have people skills, something she has not demonstrated through her actions. If she’s like this with co-workers imagine how she’d be when she’s above them in the chain of command (this website documents too many managers who use rank to try get away with bad managing behavior). If it comes to choosing between potentially losing one employee, no matter how reliable and high performing they are, or risking demoralising a number of staff by having them work under someone who is well documented as a drama stirrer, it’s easier to replace one staff member than many.

      Additionally, the fact Abby creates drama with customers is a major issue and casts doubt on the LW’s assessment of her performance. She’s already making trouble with the clientele, and if she gets a manager position she’s going to represent the company more prominently than she already is. She’s a liability more than she’s an asset, front of house and behind the scenes. I’d value staff and client interactions over metrics for a hospitality job.

  7. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    Do not promote her. if she throws a fit about not being promoted, you were right not to promote you.

  8. Turingtested*

    LW 1 I managed restaurants for years and I understand that a dedicated employee who won’t quit is worth a lot of BS.

    The way I handled it was by straight up saying “You cause too many arguments to be an assistant manager. Work on your internal and external customer service and let’s talk in 6 months. However I really value your work and I’d like to give you a raise to prove it.”

    My guess is Abby is underpaid and overworked and feeling very hard done by. Under those circumstances it’s very hard to improve interpersonal relationships. The raise proves you value her as does the direct feedback.

    No offense but a lot of people just don’t understand what a nightmare staffing food service is and why managers put up with the Abbys of the world.

    1. Bast*

      As someone who has worked in food service, 100%. There are things that absolutely would have gotten someone booted at any of the offices I’ve worked in, but are tolerated in food service because if you have someone who a) shows up on time, all of the time b) does the job and c) is well liked, or at least, decently liked by the regulars, you’ve found a gem. Drama was common and to be expected. Would I want this in a manager? Absolutely not, but I think your way of handling it leaves a better chance of Abby not quitting with a bad taste in her mouth. Who DOESN’T want more money?

    2. carrot cake*

      “My guess is Abby is underpaid and overworked and feeling very hard done by.”

      —

      So she can leave. Whatever happened to agency? Besides, promoting employees like her sets up everyone else to fail. She is in the wrong business if she can’t just get along with people, or at least be civil and professional. Holding onto her might be convenient for you but I guarantee it absolutely SUCKS for everyone else.

      2. Burning Burner*

        The longer someone stays in a role where they feel underpaid, overworked, and very hard done by, the less likely they’ll maintain enough morale to stay promotable.

    3. Potsie*

      Part of what makes staffing a nightmare is promoting employees with a history of bullying others. Others will quit if Abby is promoted. Retaining a problematic employee simply isn’t worth it.

      2. Pescadero*

        99% of what makes staffing a nightmare is:

        1) The job sucks. No one likes dealing with retail customers.
        2) It’s a part time job, with inconsistent hours.
        3) It pays really poorly.

        Personal dynamics comes way after that, and everyone in food service is used to working with dysfunctional folks.

      3. amoeba*

        Well, sure, but the LW writes that the current team seems to be getting on well/OK with Abby, as she’s shown improvement (and I guess there was turnover and they don’t actually remember the bullying?)

        1. Razzle dazzle*

          This makes a big difference, I think. As someone who has lived through a semi-reformed, formerly very toxic supervisor.

    4. wordswords*

      This makes a lot of sense to me.

      You don’t want to discourage Abby from continuing to improve by making her feel that no matter what she does, no matter what improvement she shows, it’s never enough for you and never enough to get a raise. At the same time, there are certain standards that need to be kept up, like not causing constant problems with and for other employees — you also don’t want other employees to feel that bullying is ignored or rewarded! So it makes a lot of sense to me to lay it out for Abby: you’ve improved, I value your reliable work, if you want a raise you’ll have to improve further on X and Y but I’m rooting for you and will follow through on my end if you follow through on yours.

      And if you don’t think there’s any chance that Abby will be able to follow through… well, it’s still valuable to have laid out what the criteria are, so that it’s “we’ve talked about this, you’re still causing too many arguments all the time” instead of vagueness.

    5. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      I like this solution because it rewards Abby for the desired improvement and gives her a clear path to attain her goals. It’s not spoon-feeding but does give her the opportunity to learn and grow.

    6. Ellis Bell*

      I really like the solution of rewarding Abby partially for partial improvement but making it clear she hasn’t done enough yet. You’ll get more introspection from her, if you recognise what has gone well.

    7. NotAnotherManager!*

      I would go a step beyond this, if LW is to invest in Abby, and be more explicit with her about what behaviors need to stop or be developed and how those track with an assistant manager position. I think sometimes there’s an assumption that people get what we’re saying when given a larger, more nebulous set of instructions, but someone who’s known to be drama-prone is going to need direct, clear guidance on what the target internal/external customer service looks like in practice.

    8. Good Enough For Government Work*

      I like this approach. Give Abby part of what she wants as reward for her previous improvement and the potential to earn the rest. See how she reacts!

      If she reverts at not getting 100% of what she wants, she’s out the door. If she shows she can continue to improve and to work with the new manager, she may be promotable in the next 6 months to a year. In most industries I’d have said the inprovement so far is too little too late, but in food service… it’s worth a shot.

    9. learnedthehardway*

      Agreeing – character isn’t just about innate predispositions, but is also about the pattern of actions one takes. Everyone has weaknesses. It’s how you deal with them that really matters.

      Abby has made improvements. The question is whether those improvements will stick. She needs to prove herself in her current role, and a consequence of her past actions is that she should not be promoted at this time. That is something that should be communicated to her – her improvement is noted, but she has still got to put in the time to prove that she has changed. She has to build credibility with her coworkers. IF she continues to maintain her better behaviour and not create drama, then she will have opportunities in future to progress.

      This is exactly the way I have parented my kids – consequences for bad behaviour, direction on what behaviours are expected, a period of limited privileges while we see if the changed behaviour will stick, and then moving forward.

  9. Nice cup of tea*

    Maybe its just me, but if she is dedicated, hard working and reliable then I would be inclined to give her a trainee assistant manager job on probation.

    3 or even 6 months to prove herself if she wants the job.

    It might be a disaster, but there is the possibility that she might grow up and do well. If she wants it enough then it might work.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Nah.

      She’s had months, possibly years, already to prove herself ready for this job and she’s failed to do that. (Else, why would OP write in?) The fact that he thinks Abby would quit if he doesn’t give her the promotion shows that he has his doubts about this.

      As for “it might be a disaster”, well—it’s already been a disaster. Why would OP want more of that?

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Nope. Those are at best half of what she needs, and they’re only by the OP’s description. She’s not dedicated and hardworking enough to work on her character or behavior, is she?

    3. AngryOctopus*

      No, mainly because OP literally says “she’ll probably go right back to her old ways if I don’t promote her”. Part of being a mature adult who no longer causes drama is accepting that your past behavior got in your way. If OP thinks she can’t do that, she can’t be promoted.

  10. Quercus*

    This is tough, because OP has in fact seen improvement in Abby. And I do think people, especially young people maybe in their first real job, can learn to act more professionally, and it’s even possible to mature emotionally.
    So the question is, assuming Abby hasn’t quite improved enough (or for long enough) for OP to be comfortable promoting her, is how to keep her on and encourage more improvement. My thought is if she’s really worth keeping, why not give her a small raise to reflect her improvement so far, and promise some kind of future reward (maybe a team lead or just another raise) if the improvement continues?

  11. Casual Observer*

    I’m confused why Abby even still works for you if she has a history of bullying other employees? She should have been fired at that time.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      Food service. The standards are skewed. Lots of people coming in straight out of high school/college with no conflict resolution skills, lots of highly dysfunctional people who wouldn’t last at other jobs, and really competent people not staying long because they find higher-paying employment.

      1. Strive to Excel*

        Hit enter key too early! I’m not excusing the behavior, but it does result in managers really prioritizing experience and skill over soft skills. Often to the detriment of a group.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yes, and a lot of fast food / food service managers aren’t making much more than their employees, nor do they have a lot of management experience themselves (OP seems to have more). So they’re not incentivized to coach as long as the work is getting done.

    3. RagingADHD*

      It’s the restaurant industry.

      “Reliable” means “shows up to work when scheduled, apparently sober, and has never been caught doing drugs or screwing coworkers in the back room.”

      Abby’s not right for the management job, but in context of the industry, her poor behavior is far from the worst that understaffed restaurants put up with.

      Some people can do very well for themselves with tips, but on the whole, folks gravitate to food service when their life circumstances (such as needing flexibility or not having a diploma) preclude them from getting a job with a regular salary and benefits.

      1. Empress Ki*

        I also noticed that when I moved from France in the UK and started waitressing. In France, it is more of a profession and we even have diplomas specific to work in restaurants.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          In the U.S., you usually don’t find “professional” waitstaff until you get into upscale restaurants and fine dining. They’re amazing. After the department merger, NewBoss took my team at Exjob to one of the few “nice” restaurants in my old city, and the waiter was an absolute STAR. He handled that huge table along with his other tables while simultaneously training a newbie without a single hitch. It was a beautiful thing to watch him in action.

          I whispered to the boss that she should give him a massive tip. Despite all my years in food service, I could never, ever have done that well. I ended up going back to that restaurant a couple of times because the food was fantastic, but he had moved on.

      3. Strive to Excel*

        Replace “never been caught” with “never been caught by customers/upper management”, but yeah.

  12. Guest*

    I love Alison’s advice. If Abby has a long history as a drama llama and will revert to bullying every time she doesn’t get her way, she shouldn’t still be there, much less get a promotion.

  13. Emily (not a bot)*

    Federal discrimination laws also don’t apply to political appointees or judges. You can explicitly say you are appointing federal judges or cabinet officials because of their demographic features. So the issue here is not solely the election vs. non-election distinction.

    1. doreen*

      I agree that it’s not solely election non-election. But pretty much everything I’ve seen about employment discrimination refers to employees and job applicants – for example “Other federal laws, not enforced by EEOC, also prohibit discrimination and reprisal against federal employees and applicants.” I think the issue is jobs for which there is an application process vs jobs where there isn’t one. If a president explicitly says he is going to appoint a black female judge, there aren’t any identifiable applicants who were discriminated against because there weren’t any applicants.

      1. Emily (not a bot)*

        But then you could comply with anti-discrimination policies by just picking someone without an application process. (You can’t do that.) The issues here are several, including separation of powers and constitutional authorities.

  14. Parenthesis Guy*

    If you didn’t think she was going to quit otherwise, would you give her the position? The OP stated that she’s good at her job, but that doesn’t mean she’d be good as the assistant manager.

    If not, then it’s simple. Just wanting the job isn’t a qualification. If so, I think it depends on the team. If there are enough veteran people that the manager trusts on the team, then he should consider hiring her as the assistant manager. But he should tell the vets his concerns and ask for their input. If they think she’s a good option, then ask them to keep him posted if there are issues. If she reverts back to her old self, she’ll need to be demoted and probably fired.

    If there aren’t enough vets on the team that the manager can trust, then the manager needs to find someone else for this role with management experience. It would be reasonable to want this for an inexperienced team. If that means losing Abby, then so be it.

  15. Excel-sior*

    LW – there’s nothing in your letter suggesting that there are any positive reasons why Abby should be promoted. At best it’s a mitigation of negative factors. That tells you everything you need to know.

  17. oaktree*

    The fact that OP is certain that Abby will revert to her old bad behavior if she doesn’t get the role is a sure sign that she hasn’t change sufficiently and needs to be gone, not promoted.

  18. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

    I think Abby should be allowed to apply and interview for the assistant manager position alongside any other internal and external candidates. In the interview, ask about her strategies for how she would manage her current coworkers and see how much personal growth and awareness she demonstrates in her answers. Then when you have picked someone else and she wants to know why, you tell her that it takes a lot of emotional regulation, awareness, and social skills to navigate a promotion after a bad start as a coworker. Invite her to continue to demonstrate and develop those skills and to apply for the next promotion when she comes up.

    1. pally*

      There ya go!
      Give her a shot at an interview and see how she responds to the questions. Hopefully this will give her an understanding of some of the things she might work on to improve her chances the next time there’s an opening.

      Maybe she is capable of long-term, lasting change.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Ordinarily I’d say yes, but I got the feeling from the OP’s letter that there hasn’t been such drastic improvement that Abby would do well in a management role. The OP talks about “slow” improvement, and “most” of the drama being gone. If the OP was saying that Abby was doing really well and demonstrating a lot more maturity, but that they were worried her coworkers might be upset by her getting a management role because of her past behavior, I might agree with you. In this case, I would say skip straight to the second part of your answer: tell Abby flat out, “you’ve made some improvements on X and Y, but for this position, I really need to see solid X, Y, and Z. If you can work hard on those, the next time a management position opens up, I will be happy to consider you for the role.”

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Part of my thought was that she needs to see that there are steps to the process, and to have her do each one of those steps so that when she does not get promoted (which I am assuming would be the case at this time), the manager has clear and actionable things to address with her before the tantrum happens, and can refer to if the tantrum behavior happens. “This is the sort of thing that will block you from advancing here, and, in fact, staying here altogether.”

      2. Laser99*

        “Most of the drama being gone” is like saying “She doesn’t steal as much as she used to,” you know? I can’t imagine why you would keep someone like this around.

        2. Pescadero*

          ” I can’t imagine why you would keep someone like this around.”

          That just tells me you don’t have any experience working in food service.

  19. HonorBox*

    If Abby reacts poorly to not being hired for a role, or reverts to past bad behavior, then you show her the door. The fact that she’s been there as long as she has is something Abby should consider a minor miracle given the number of examples of bad behavior. All of those behaviors outlined in the letter should have probably led to dismissal already. Her feelings about that aren’t yours to worry about. You need to do what’s right for the business, and promoting someone who bullies those who report to them isn’t going to be great for your business.

  20. Elisabeth*

    I don’t understand the thinking of, “I have a terrible employee who is a time-suck and damaged past employees and now is less terrible, but if I hire a good employee to handle necessary business, I’m worried I’ll lose terrible employee.” Sunk cost fallacy?

    1. Strive to Excel*

      Because it’s food service, they’re perpetually understaffed, and it sounds like Abby despite her drama can get food out to customers really effectively. And because taking the time and effort to hire a new good manager and then training them is an exhausting time suck on an already overworked person.

      So it’s more of a question of “I have a drama-causing employee who does the thing that earns us money really well and hasn’t made any moves to quit, meaning that she has really valuable industry experience. If I hire a new employee, there’s a chance I’ll get someone better but I’ll have to take the time and energy off my already fully loaded schedule to train them. I also might have to hire a new staff.”

      It’s not a good decision, but it’s not inexplicable.

  21. carrot cake*

    I know I’ve always resented watching management reward bad behavior with promotion. I’d rather suffer by way of being short-staffed than to promote someone like Abby.

  22. Peace*

    Slightly different take: It’s retail. A lot of people who work there are in their first jobs or early career. Perhaps she was very immature when she first started, and now she has learned. I’m not sure how much time has passed, but people can change and mature. I’m not saying that she has, but there’s a chance that she did. I might be inclined to give her a chance, partially because who actually does have management experience before they get into management (otherwise there wouldn’t be this blog, eh?) LW has already been without a gm for months, and this person could actually work out. They can always fire her and/or demote her again.

    1. Potsie*

      If a coworker bullied you and was then promoted to a management position, would you stay? If she just tended to be at the center of drama then maybe give her a chance, but giving a bully power is a recipe for disaster.

  23. Dawn*

    This came up a million times in the original thread, so I just want to mention it again here:

    The problem with “just getting rid of” or losing Abby is that she is apparently super reliable and good at the mechanical parts of her job, and this is food service.

    If you haven’t worked in food service, you’re probably not going to get it. But trust that’s very much weighted differently in that industry.

    Not saying that any of what she’s doing is right or acceptable, but if you know what food service is like, then it becomes a lot clearer why OP is so conflicted.

    1. Drago Cucina*

      There are some fields like this. The drama that goes on in kitchens is horrific, second-hand stories from my son, from lower end to fine dining.

      My husband used to have to work hard to separate out personalities from the ability to provide care with surgeons he worked with. Surgeon Irritante may have the personality of barbed wire, but he’s very skilled.

      1. Dawn*

        It’s a complex subject, but the short answer is that with the wages food service typically pays (and we have to remember the person writing us is the manager, not the owner, and doesn’t set the wages,) and the honestly extremely hard work that working in a kitchen is, someone who shows up every day and does their job well is worth their weight in gold. Someone who does that for several years? At food service wages? Unicorn employee.

  24. Kelly L.*

    My question here is how long it’s been. If she was causing drama like two months ago and only just now improved, no, don’t promote her. If she had a rough start and this was five years ago, then I think her five years of good behavior should carry more weight.

  25. Curious*

    Re: #2. I’ve always wondered…there is a chiropractic clinic in our area where all the docs and staff are women. It appears to be by design as they do a lot of prenatal/postnatal care. I’m sure this is because they feel women would be more comfortable with women, and I don’t know what their hiring practices are (so perhaps it’s all word-of-mouth v. job posting). But If they posted jobs and only hired women, that would be illegal, right?

    1. Meep*

      Nope. As much as men want to whine about how oppressed they are, they are not a minority or protected class.

      1. Silver Robin*

        Sex and gender are protected classes; everyone has those and therefore everyone is part of a protected class.

        Now, are men generally discriminated against based on that? No. Do historically privileged groups get whiny (and dangerous) when their privileges get taken away? Yes. Equality feels like oppression when you are used to being the privileged ones.

        But, the way the law is written, everyone belongs to a number of protected classes. Perhaps with the exception of age, which is specifically 40+.

        So yes, men are not a minority, but also, no, they actually are part of a protected class.

      2. AcademiaNut*

        Gender is a protected class. It doesn’t specify what gender – discriminating against men is illegal, just less common.

        The only protected class, to my knowledge, that is not symmetric is age discrimination. You can’t discriminate because someone is over 40, but you can discriminate based on youth.

    2. Silver Robin*

      (not a lawyer).

      If those women were the best applicants for the job each time, then there is no issue; you would have to prove that they were rejecting qualified applicants who was not a woman on the basis of gender, or on something that has significantly gendered skew and is irrelevant to the job, like whether or not they came in wearing makeup (intentionally silly example, just to be clear).

    3. honeygrim*

      Question 2 in the August 26th “5 answers to 5 questions” post was about this: “All-female staff at women’s health offices.” Alison said that customer preference doesn’t usually meet the bar for a “bona fide occupational qualification.” So, yeah, if they explicitly hired only women no matter the qualifications of any of the applicants, it sounds like it would be illegal.

    4. Emily (not a bot)*

      If there are 15+ employees and they preferentially hire women, that is illegal. But you get into some issues with actually proving it, in part because it’s pretty hard to figure out what someone’s candidate pool looks like, as a rejected candidate.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      Or it’s an underpaid, poor-benefits job and most of them can work there because they’re on their parents’ or husbands’ insurance.

    6. Person from the Resume*

      It depends, but keep in mind our own biases.

      An all male or even an all white male office hardly gets a second glance. It’s because women are often a minority (at least as doctors) that it looks unusual to you.

      1. allathian*

        Even that is changing. I’m in Finland, and nearly 70 percent of medical school students are women. The only field of study that remains male-dominated here is engineering.

        Male nurses are almost non-existent, I’ve never been seen by one.

        I would not be at all surprised to go to an all female doctor’s office.

  26. It's Marie - Not Maria*

    100% do not promote Abby. She has clearly demonstrated she does not have the level of maturity to have any kind of power, perceived or otherwise. Bullying coworkers, causing drama, and her other behaviors show who she really is right now.

    As the HR Director, I am dealing with a similar situation right now. Against my strong pushback, the company promoted a bullying member of the drama royalty. Everything I predicted about this person has come true, plus some. They even try to bully Senior Management. I do not know how they still have a job, after some of the things they have done, but the company refuses to fire them.

    Abby would need to show you a great deal of personal professional growth before she could be promoted, unless you want to deal with what I am having to deal with right now. It’s not worth it.

  27. Festively Dressed Earl*

    This is the food service Catch-22. You put up with unprofessional behavior like Abby’s because she shows up for her shifts and has been there long enough to become technically proficient at her job, and food service employees are hard to retain. New employees are even more likely to no-show/quit when they’ve got to spend six hours with customer service Joffrey Baratheon, which means the chances of cultivating new reliable and proficient employees drop from “bad” to “nonexistent.” In the original letter, LW mentions that her previous AGM didn’t work out her notice because she couldn’t stand working with Abby – that’s a huge red flag. Because there are so few reliable/knowledgeable employees, LW has to rely on Abby despite her unprofessional behavior. Bonus: Abby is causing drama with customers, too, so LW is leaking business and possibly getting bad word of mouth.

    The answer to this crappy cycle isn’t to promote Abby; it’s to do whatever it takes to find an AGM who’s a team player. That will probably be time consuming and expensive, but so are the consequences of Abby’s behavior beyond getting the next shift covered.

  29. Rainy*

    L1 is honestly sort of hilariously timed because my old job has just yet again promoted to manage people someone who failed miserably at people management 5-6 years ago. I believe that people can and do grow and change professionally, but given the problems he created then and what I know of him now, I don’t think he’s changed that part of himself at all, because he never thought it was a problem to begin with. The last time he had reports they made it a few months before they banded together and complained to his boss about how poorly he was treating them, and two of them left soon after in ways that made it clear his treatment of them was what prompted them to start job-hunting.

    I will never understand why missing stairs and problem children get this degree of investment from some managers while competent, reliable folks get the short end of the stick from the same manager.

  30. Crencestre*

    LW1: When considering whether to promote someone to a managerial role, ask yourself one very simple question: Would I want to work under this person’s supervision?

    You’ve answered that question quite clearly here: ” She is also immature and instigates drama. Almost any and all drama, whether between other workers or our customers, usually has her at the center of it. She has bullied people in the past and would talk unprofessionally about coworkers.”

    Would YOU want to be supervised by an immature, conflict-causing, unprofessional bully? Unless you’re a diehard masochist, the answer would be “NO! In fact, I’d start polishing my resume and job-hunting if I were stuck with a manager like that!” Well, LW, there’s your answer! This woman is NOT management material – not now, maybe not ever! Find someone who IS suited for that role before you lose the rest of your staff to this immature bully.

  31. DJ*

    An option is to advertise the job both internally and externally. This employee can apply like any other internal employees as well as external ppl. Then select the best applicant. Its likely to be someone else.
    She will get miffed!

  32. coin_operated*

    So I actually don’t agree with the advice, and most the comments, and that is because I generally feel employees in any tough industrries where they show up consistently and do the work, and are coachable, deserve a chance over someone from the outside.

    Abby, despite an imperfect history, has shown she is good at her job, and coachable. I think she’s earned a chance at this promotion, and you could easily set a trial period, 3 to 6 months to see how she performs, specifically to address your concerns with her work history. I do feel she has earned that.

    Even more so in the restaurant/food service industry, which broadly speaking, has a much higher level of what we would think of as workplace dysfunction than most industries, especially with bullying and how employees relate to each other. Every assistant and general manager I ever worked for in restaurants were full-on bullies, and I worked with them for 10 years. It’s really common. I’m not defending it, but Abby is not the only person, like this in food service, and even if you hire from the outside, chances are you going to get someone who already is that way, and at least with Abby, she’s proven to be coachable.

    1. Bill and Heather's Excellent Adventure*

      She has been given a chance, she’s been coached repeatedly by OP and the improvement has been ‘slow’ and OP is still concerned she will revert back to her former drama llama bullying behaviour if she doesn’t get what she wants. Turning up consistently and doing the job is just the basics, she doesn’t deserve a promotion just for that.

      1. Grith*

        “Slow improvements” are still improvements, and “concerns” of her reverting to previous behaviour are not guarantees.

        I get that site rules have a “trust LW’s” clause, but that doesn’t mean taking the LW’s concerns about the possibility of a backslide as a definite result that WILL happen. I’m stunned how unanimously comments seem to have determined that there’s absolutely no way this person could have made some mistakes when starting a job and then responded well to coaching and improved.

        Worth an interview and/or a trial period at the very least.

  33. Raida*

    You could offer them an opportunity as a trial – like a probation.
    And ask them straight out: if it didn’t go well (hey maybe they don’t like the job) would they quit instead of returning to the shift lead position.

    Just really honest and blunt – You’ve always been valuable and reliable, the drama and bullying would have been an immediate no. Since you’ve put in the work on those unprofessional and unacceptable behaviours I think you could be well-suited to this role. I will not promise it to you or anyone else for that matter. You’d have to do a trial, you’d need management training on the job, and you’d have to start interacting with other staff you haven’t won over. You can’t utilise those old tactics to do this, and I know that.

  35. Bill and Heather's Excellent Adventure*

    There’s a difference between someone wanting a job and someone saying they ‘deserve’ a job. Abby hasn’t changed, she’s just behaving better because she thinks she’s getting a promotion. Find someone else who isn’t a former bully.

  36. ijustworkhere*

    A person who bullies people and instigates drama is not “doing their job” in a people environment. Part of their job is having professional interactions with their colleagues and teammates.

    I hope we can change that conversation–I hear so many people talk about how someone is “good at their job” but can’t get along with the people they need to get along with as they do their work. If that’s the case, then no, they are not “good at their job” because they aren’t performing certain essential aspects of their job.

    You either have to remove the need for them to work with other people (pretty difficult in most workplaces) or you have to clearly communicate that getting along with others is not optional.

  37. Smurfette*

    Pros

    extremely dedicated
    reliable worker
    efficient at her job

    Cons

    lacks formal manager experience
    immature
    instigates drama
    has bullied people in the past
    would talk unprofessionally about coworkers

    And if that’s not enough, “Almost any and all drama, whether between other workers or our customers, usually has her at the center of it”. She causes drama with CUSTOMERS? Why is she even still employed there? She’s a shockingly bad employee but you’re considering giving her authority over coworkers who she’s bullied in the past? WHY?

    (end of rant)

Comments are closed.