update: my boss reprimanded me for not answering an email … in four minutes

by Alison Green on September 11, 2024

Remember the letter-writer whose boss reprimanded them for not answering an email in four minutes? Here’s the update.

Your response was really helpful. Martha had already fucked with my head so much that she really had me doubting myself — so much so, that I honestly thought you might take her side and ask me, “But why did it take you four whole minutes to answer the email?” So for you and the commenters to reassure me that yes, she was being unreasonable was really helpful.

As for an update … reader, she fired me.

Yes, I took your advice and started looking for a new job. She fired me before I could find one. The four-minute email happened about a month after I started, and I got fired just under the three-month mark. The reason given was that I was making too many mistakes and that they couldn’t trust me with my assignments. I’m curious how it’s going with my replacement, if things like accidentally saving a draft to the wrong folder (in your first month at a new job) qualify as fireable offenses.

I did mess up sometimes — more than I normally do. But I think it’s because of how Martha treated me. She was so volatile that I didn’t feel comfortable asking questions (and she also would just disappear fairly often — she can disappear for three hours, I’m in trouble for missing a phone call because I was using the restroom), so a lot of times I had to make my best guess (and yes, amazingly, my best guess was ALWAYS wrong!) She was always coming after me with artificially compressed deadlines, so I usually had to send her work without having the amount of time I’d prefer to proofread, double-check, etc. Sometimes I thought she was moving the goalposts. Often, she would say, “I told you to do X, not Y” and I’d think (though I’d never say it out loud, lest I face her wrath) “I … don’t think you did, actually.” And, sometimes it was 100% clear that she was just inventing reasons to berate me (see, e.g., four-minute email).

When I got the email that I wrote to you about, I knew deep down that she was just never going to let up. Clearly, she would find something to criticize whether I did something wrong or not, and in the end probably fire me (or bully me until I quit). That played out many times in the weeks before my firing. If I made a minor mistake, she lost her mind. If I didn’t make a mistake, she would invent one. For example, she would email me to say things like, “The meeting has been over for 30 minutes; by this point you should have emailed me to ask what our next steps are.” (Maybe, but see above re: hesitancy to initiate contact with volatile boss who finds fault with everything I say or do.) I absolutely couldn’t win and it was just a horrible, stressful, demoralizing experience.

The good news is that I did find another job that I’m much happier with, though the first few weeks were VERY tough as I tried to put the experience with Martha behind me. I was afraid to ask questions, thought I was about to be fired every time I made a mistake, etc. But as time went by and it became clear to me that I was now working with reasonable people, it got much better. While I didn’t get out in time, I’m grateful for you and the commenters because, as I said, it helped me to keep some perspective in the face of a person doing her best to destroy my faith in my basic competency. I really wish this hadn’t happened to me, and while I’m happy in my new job (and it’s a bump in both title and salary — I actually now have Martha’s job title — seriously, suck it, Martha) I would never say “it happened for a reason” or that I’m grateful for it in any way. The fact that someone could bully me like this, be 100% in the wrong, fire me, and get away with all of it is really hard to accept. But all I can do is look forward.

You may also like:
{ 176 comments }

{ 176 comments… read them below }

  1. Falling Diphthong*

    OP, Congrats on getting out.

    Your last paragraph really hits home a recurring theme here–how much a bad environment can mess with your sense of what’s normal.

    1. Anonym*

      Truly. And yeah. We don’t have to find a silver lining in everything. Some things just suck. Wishing you all the best, OP!

      1. ferrina*

        Yeah. I know it’s not the ending OP wanted (and not the ending I wanted for OP- mine would involve grand karmic justice), but this is a happy ending. I was so worried when OP said they were fired, but I’m so, so relieved that they got a good job quickly (or at least, within a few months)!

        I hope OP is able to recover from that experience and thrive in their new role!

        1. Overthinking it*

          But MAY-be there will be! OP is now at same level as Martha. So, maybe OP will get promoted! And Martha will come to her for a job, which of course she will not get! Or maybe Martha will get hired for another department in the company OP is now with, OP find Martha and her job moved to OP’s purview, and then OP can fire Martha for not responding to an email in 4 minutes! Or better still – and more righteously – OP fires Martha for bullying her subordinates! And a contrite and humble Martha learns her lesson and never tries bully again! (One can dream!)

          1. Edwina*

            I once had a chance to hire a former manager, so your scenario could come true. She really sucked as a manager, but she was very good at what we were hiring for, so I did hire her, and it worked out fine.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      Yep. Almost three years out from my last toxic job and I’m still finding behaviors that are carry-overs from that place. Ugh.

    4. DJ*

      This is very true. What helped me contextualize my upbringing and family relationships was reading the subreddit RaisedByNarcissists. Seeing both other people share stories similar to mine, as well as others sharing their stories being very different from mine.

      I think something that stuck with me is how “normal” is entirely contextual. Something normal in my family may not be normal in another’s, and when we talk about normal, it helps to give the relative context, so people can understand the types of things you’d categorize as normal.

      If I say I came home and had a normal night, it might mean I played games with my wife and slept together. Someone else could say that to mean they came home, argue with their wife, and went to a bar alone.

      1. Erin the Brit*

        Ordinary, said Aunt Lydia, is what you are used to. This may not seem ordinary to you now, but after a time it will. It will become ordinary.

  2. postdooc*

    I’m glad that you’re out of that situation, OP– Martha is full of bees. Give yourself grace to reestablish normal working relationships at your new (awesome!) job, and eventually, Martha and her incredibly inappropriate behavior will become a story that you can use as a teaching tool to others for identifying red flags.

    1. MigraineMonth*

      OP, I am the last person to say it’s all a part of a plan or “everything happens for a reason.” Some things are just awful, and they stay awful even when you’re out of the situation. I know exactly what you mean about being afraid to ask questions at your new job. It’s been 5 years since I was fired from a job that was extremely punitive about a certain type of mistake, and I still have a whole-body anxiety reaction when I realize I’ve made one.

      Still, I’d bet good money that if you are ever assigned a boss anything like Martha in the future, you won’t spend any time questioning your “OH GOD GET ME OUT OF HERE” instincts. It’s no silver lining, but it’s a nugget of truth no one can take away from you.

      1. ferrina*

        Co-signing all of this.

        I hate the “it happened for a reason” because it makes it sound like you’re supposed to be grateful for terrible things happening to you. You will always have that experience in your memory, and while you now have the lessons learned, you always have the broken trust and the trauma echoes as well.

        1. Bryce*

          The difference between learning from a bad experience and spinning that experience as good because you learned from it.

  3. STLBlues*

    I’m sorry LW. Congrats on getting out.

    I hope it helps a bit that (I suspect) every commenter here will confirm that your boss is the crazy one. Karma takes time, but I expect it’ll come back to her in the end.

    1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      Yes – you write that it’s hard that she has “gotten away with it,” and, in a sense, she has, in that she fired you and she’s still working there. But she is going to have a hard time getting good results and keeping good people on her team (after all, you would have been out of there when you found a new job even if she hadn’t fired you!). It also sounds kind of stressful to be Martha and constantly thinking about what everyone is doing wrong. I’m glad you’re away from her and sorry you were there in the first place.

      1. bleh*

        Agreed that she will out herself as the loon / bully / problem eventually. In the meantime, your new position and the confidence you will regain as you are away from said bullying are their own reward. Best of luck!

      2. Silver Robin*

        “I would not want to live in their brain” is something I find myself saying when folks are getting on my nerves with unreasonable behavior. Helps remind me that they are making themselves as miserable as they are making me, if not more, in one way or another. Is it as satisfying as poetic justice? No. But it is grounding: I generally like myself and my life; other people disturbing that is a reflection on them and not me.

  4. Beth*

    I’m so glad you’ve gotten into a better place.

    If it helps, Martha probably will experience consequences for her behavior eventually. She’s creating a team where she’s going to have constant turnover; where her employees (very reasonably!) won’t do basic things like ask questions or flag issues, because they don’t want to be yelled at even more than they already are; and where work is almost guaranteed to be wrong a lot of the time, because she’s shifting the goalposts enough that her employees don’t know what they’re supposed to be doing. That management style is terrible for team productivity. Odds are really good that it blows up in her face eventually.

    I’m glad you won’t be there to see it, though–as satisfying as it would be to see it, your new team sounds much better!

    1. JJLib*

      That happened to my Martha-like old boss. Old grandboss had enabled this hands-off micromanager (and believe me, boss managed to be both) for a long time, to where I had 2 colleagues quit 6 months apart because of it. New grandboss comes in and 2 weeks later…old boss was gone.

      It was a “d*mned if I did, d*mned if I didn’t” environment: the content every email I sent was wrong somehow, I responded to emails too quickly, I took too long to respond, I didn’t use initiative before taking something to my boss or else I wasn’t going to them for signoff first.

      I was job hunting throughout all of this (and nearly quit once without a new job lined up), but didn’t get anything. I’m happy to say that I outlasted the situation and am still in this job. I’ve since gotten multiple stalled projects done (on-time/ahead of schedule) with no micromanaging at all and have gotten what amounts to a promotion.

    2. TQB*

      Yes, this was the karmic retribution for my firing many years ago! Someone at a slightly higher level than me was temporarily running our department. A Big Thing went wrong and the CEO was mad. Instead of assuring him we were on top of it, she threw me to the wolves and blamed it all on me.

      Within 6 months, they’d hired a new, permanent, department head. Within months of his arrival she was told she should look for a new job. At least I got fired and paid several months’ of severance and unemployment! She had to continue to show up knowing everyone knew she was on her way out.

      What goes around does often come around, OP. Martha’s gonna get bit by this sooner or later.

  5. Kindred Spirit*

    I feel like I worked for Martha–the exact same thing happened to me, but I was just demoted at the three-month mark. Then, because it was the pandemic, it took me nine months to find another job. Meanwhile, I had to make life work at a much lower salary–with, obviously, the same job duties and expectations but just a lower title. I’m having a hard time making peace with this and letting go of the fear it’s going to happen again, even though it’s been more than three years. I wish I had been able to quit instead of taking the demotion, but I’m proud of myself that I pushed through something so awful and came out the other side without having to go without being paid.

    1. Josame*

      I’ve also worked for Martha. OP and Kindred Spirit, be proud of surviving through it! That’s no small feat.

    2. SansaStark*

      I also worked for Martha about 10 years ago and can confidently say that although it was the worst experience of my professional life, it has made me a better manager now and I’m also fairly confident that I can mostly spot a Martha in a job interview and run the opposite way.

    3. Goldenrod*

      “And, sometimes it was 100% clear that she was just inventing reasons to berate me (see, e.g., four-minute email).”

      YES, this. When I worked for my version of Martha, she would actually look disappointed when she pounced on me for a mistake and I was able to point out that I actually hadn’t made one. Disappointed! I could see it on her face. These types of people are so deranged.

      1. learnedthehardway*

        They’re abusive. Psychologically abusive. And it’s deliberate. They are aware of what they are doing – at least on some level.

  6. Sloanicota*

    I’m sorry OP. Some management styles just really put my off my game, and sometimes relatively small mistakes early on can cause a manager to lose trust and faith in a way that’s so hard to correct. It feels really unfair when it happens. Hopefully you are moving on to bigger and better things and can put this out of your head as just the Wrong Fit.

    1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      “sometimes relatively small mistakes early on can cause a manager to lose trust and faith in a way that’s so hard to correct.”

      While this is true, it is only true for bad managers. A decent, reasonable manager would not allow that kind of thing to cloud their judgment.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yes, true, but even in this blog I’ve read the advice “when they don’t have as much information about you, a small thing can seem like a bigger datapoint” in terms of interviews / early days on the job. This is actually something I think about a LOT because I’m trying to switch roles right now. A small error in a cover letter or needing to take unexpected PTO early on or whatever looms so large in people’s minds, even if they’re not totally whackadoo (which to be clear it sounds like this boss is).

        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Sure even small mistakes, like an accountant not adding up a column right, not a big deal if its caught. Sure you know you have to double check that person’s work a little closer for a while.

          But come on, saving something in the wrong folder isn’t a small mistake, its just part of life. And to be berated for doing it. Even in the above example you don’t berate them and then look for more mistakes to berate them about, you have a conversation about how it happened and how to keep it from happening again.

          Martha is a loon and there is no justification for her lack of trust in OP.

        2. Ellis Bell*

          That’s not what that advice means though. Everyone will make small mistakes while training and it simply isn’t reasonable to expect otherwise. The “”small things can seem like bigger data points” is related to things that can be avoided, like don’t ask to sit with the friend who recommended you, or badmouthing your old company. Things that can be misinterpreted as “potentially wants to chat” or “potentially loves drama” but it’s okay to do discreetly later on when it’s more likely to be received as “Oh I bet her friend will help best with training” and “Wow you can trust her word when she does criticise, because she never gossips”. None of that applies to making mistakes (small ones) when training
          Managers don’t want new colleagues to be perfect robots, in fact they want people aware of their limitations who feel comfortable asking questions and admitting when they’re lost.

    2. Bast*

      As much as I hate to admit this, I find it to be at least partially true. I also fear getting sick/having an emergency and having to call out in the beginning of a new job, because they don’t know me well enough to know that I am generally reliable and not the type to call out for any little thing. After a year or so, I begin to feel more comfortable because I certainly don’t set the pattern as someone you need to watch out for. Not everyone assesses by these metrics, but after you’ve been there once, you know that some places certainly will hold your positive Covid test in the first month against you, despite it being out of your control. This is especially difficult because you have to ascertain what your workplace culture is around calling out, sickness, etc.– some places are just as unreasonable no matter what length of time you’ve been there, and find calling out to be a moral failure because they possess a, “back in my day, we took an Advil and sucked it up” type of attitude.

      I find this less of an issue when it comes to work, though. In general, any halfway reasonable manager should expect a new employee to make mistakes, particularly when you are hiring for an entry level position. Heck, even if I were hiring for a position that requires experience, I would still expect mistakes, just perhaps not as many. Someone can know their job very, very well, but different offices do things different ways, and I wouldn’t expect a new hire to remember all the nuances of, “Well, in this office we save those under X Folder, not Y Folder” types of issues anyway. Starting a new job is overwhelming for many of us, and trying to remember everything thrown at you in the first few days/weeks can be overwhelming. Where it’s truly concerning is when someone is making the same mistakes on Day 90 that they were still making on Day 1 with no improvement or understanding of how to improve. At any stage however, people make mistakes — typos happen even to the best of us, things get misfiled or misplaced — but reacting like Martha and expecting perfect employees is insane. The management style here is Abusive Jerk –Martha is truly awful and will likely never find an employee that can meet her standards.

    3. MigraineMonth*

      While I think that can be generally true, I sincerely doubt that this boss had any trust to lose. Martha is a manager who proudly describes themselves as a micromanager and doesn’t seem to have any awareness that is a bad thing. Her mindset is that employees cannot be given any leeway or slack, because they cannot be trusted to do anything independently.

      If OP had been a mind-reading genie granting her infinite wishes, I suspect Martha would still be upset because she created a pyramid of pink elephants, which is what Martha wanted, but OP should have predicted that she’d change her mind and want them to be blue with orange polka-dots instead.

      1. Goldenrod*

        “If OP had been a mind-reading genie granting her infinite wishes, I suspect Martha would still be upset because she created a pyramid of pink elephant”

        Yes, THIS.

      2. Suck It, Martha*

        Hi- this is pretty much it. The whole reason the four-minute email upset me so much, and motivated me to write to AAM, was that it came at the end of a week when I’d really been knocking myself out to please her (she’d been very harsh during a Monday meeting that week). All week, I did as much mind-reading as I could, turned myself inside out, and when I got that reprimand, I just thought “and you STILL found something to criticize?!” I have a million more examples I didn’t have time or space to list in the letter, but often her criticism was often contradictory to her earlier criticism (for example, on Wednesday I didn’t look interested enough in the Zoom meeting, on Thursday I should have “multitasked” and finished editing a report while the Zoom meeting was going on). You can’t succeed unless your manager wants you to succeed.

        1. A reader among many*

          That’s exactly right. People like that adopt the eternal perspective, no matter what happens or does not happen, that “This is wrong; I just have to figure out *how* it’s wrong.” They should not manage other people.

    5. anon4ny*

      ….the micromanagers are the “Wrong Fit”. There’s no job a person like Martha succeeds- she should just do all the work herself, until she inevitably messes up, and then get fired. Mayybe once this happens enough times, she’ll realize she’s a human and not a robot who “manages” on a micro level perfectly.

  7. Cookie Monster*

    I’m so sorry this happened to you but also: Glassdoor, Glassdoor, Glassdoor.

    This is exactly what GD was made for. And it’s not like you can expect a great reference from them anyway – they wouldn’t provide a good one and you were there for such a short amount of time it probably wouldn’t mean much if they did.

    3. Khatul Madame*

      The company may be overall decent, so it would be helpful to specify the exact department. Next best thing to naming and shaming.

    4. AnonInCanada*

      This, exactly. Even if Martha can connect the dots and associate you with the bad GD review, what is she going to do, fire you again? Hopefully, Martha’s superiors will also read it and connect the dots between her and bad morale/high turnover. Something about karma. It always comes to bite people like Martha in the end.

    5. CommanderBanana*

      Yes to this. I had someone reach out to me recently about accepting a job from my horrible previous organization. They were concerned enough about the Glassdoor reviews to contact some previous employees through LinkedIn. We had a candid conversation and they ultimately decided not to take the job, based in part because they knew what issues to ask about during their interviews after we talked. Even if they had decided to take the offer, at least they were going in with their eyes open.

      I also recently withdrew from an interview process because of information I found on Glassdoor about a large discrimination lawsuit against a potential employer. I generally take online reviews with a large grain of salt, but if you’re looking at an employer and they have systemically negative reviews that are all consistent over a long span of time, well…where there’s smoke, there’s fire.

    6. WoodswomanWrites*

      Exactly. In addition to warning others about that horrible manager by naming the department specifically, taking this step could be just what you need to help put the experience behind you. I’ve found it helpful to take an action like this. It creates a marker for letting go of that awful history and instead looking forward. I also find it satisfying to know that comment is up there for anyone to see and they can’t take it down.

      You definitely deserve the great place you’re in now. Let Martha go down in flames online and never look back.

    8. Spiritbrand*

      I mean you don’t even have to give examples beyond “the manager proudly claims to be a micromanager”.

      1. AnonForThisOne*

        OP I relate.

        I am anon for this one as I had a letter about my horrible prior boss published by Alison (the boss who emailed me after returning from leave asking went clearly nothing was done while she was out amongst other delights) and I can relate.

        This same boss berated me for the wrong style of bullet points. No company style guide. No previous conversations about format… just berating about bullet point shape.

        In your letter you say there’s really nothing you can learn from this…but I disagree. You know how being treated like this feels. You know how important it is to be consistent with any future employees you lead in the future. And you know what it looks like when it’s time to get out. You learned a lot.

        And you escaped. Good for you!

  8. Quill*

    Martha sucks and we’re glad you got out, but I also think it’s worth pointing out for future you: you were not bad at this job. You weren’t fully trained and the environment made it impossible to succeed, and bad managers absolutely can make people worse at their jobs by making it impossible to get information from them.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      THIS

      I have had two jobs where I wasn’t trained properly, felt like nothing I could do was right, and the manager was not good at managing. Both of them were very stressful. In one case I was fired and in the other, I quit. I’ve learned not to keep trying to make a bad situation work, just to do my best to get out of it.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        Ditto ditto ditto. Toxic Workplace #1 was like this, it was a toxic ED and a not so great office manager on top of no one fully explaining the job to me or training me at all, down to my having to walk over to Best Buy to purchase my own computer (!!!)

        That job destroyed my confidence and mental health for a year and seriously warped my norms. I should have walked away so much sooner. The good news is that you can really transform your work life even after struggling at toxic places. I’m so glad for you that you got out before the three month mark.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      Honestly the whole company sounds like it’s on fire. It sounds like Martha openly brags about being a micromanager and is happy to put her full incompetence on show in meetings with other managers…. and nobody has checked her powers to make lives miserable and to burn through perfectly good employees. I know OP said the other manager seemed fine, but I’d bet she’s not supported in raising alarms about the managers who are not.

    3. Petunia*

      Yup. My supervisor at my old job would always tell me to “lean on” my coworkers as I was learning my job. Translation: don’t bother her. She said I should ask lots of questions, it was all part of the learning process. Later I was accused of “leaning on” my coworkers too much (but also not asking enough questions). When I questioned what the right ratio was, she essentially said my social skills were lacking and I couldn’t pick up on cues. Um, no, I’m just not a mind reader.

  9. Too Many Birds*

    “The fact that someone could bully me like this, be 100% in the wrong, fire me, and ***get away with all of it*** is really hard to accept.”

    I feel like this is one of the under-discussed aspects of workplaces. My husband went through something similar – he had an incredibly toxic boss and abusive grand-boss. He’s in a very tough industry, where despite being recognized as one of the top people in his field, it took literal years for him to find another job. The two bosses have run this organization into the ground. But it’s part of a much larger organization that is A. very stable and B. DNGAF about toxic management, so there truly will never be any consequences for those two, even though they’ve lost a ton of people, lost money for the organization, and it’s taken a huge reputational hit. It’s one of the hardest things for my husband to accept – that he was the one who was effectively “punished” by having to leave a job he otherwise loved due to the mismanagement above him, and those people will never pay the consequences.

    1. Sloanicota*

      I agree, at this point in my career I’m a bit jaded on the whole thing – terrible workplaces chew up employees and burn through multiple good people in a row with basically little consequence, whereas me stepping into the wrong situation ONCE is a blow to my career in terms of now having a gap / no reference or a bad reference / having basically “one strike” before I’m the one who starts looking fishy. It really is hard to accept.

    2. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

      I’m two jobs out from leaving a similar situation. A very hands off director, a manager who kisses their butt while simultaneously throwing everyone else under them under the bus. The workplace is a smaller part of a larger organizaton and it’s reputation as a toxic workplace is well known. The sad thing that it doesn’t have to be this way. Workers and stakeholders have all said the same thing, the conflict originates from one person and has since they joined the organization.

      1. WorkplaceSurvivor*

        Are you me? Cause your situation and mine were the same to the letter. Sorry you had to deal with that as well.

        I hope you’re recovering and happier!

    3. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Yeah, I went through a similar situation where thankfully at least the toxic person wasn’t my boss, just a higher-up that I supposedly had to work with sometimes. (I say “supposedly” because she was constantly telling her bosses that I never gave her the information/reports she asked for, but also she never actually asked me for any reports or info.) I had a great boss who was 100% on my side and knew the toxic person was lying about me, but I also had to get out of there because the other higher ups didn’t seem to notice or care that the toxic person was being toxic. She is still at that job and almost certainly still toxic, but to be fair, it has only been a few months.

      Meanwhile I got a nice big pay increase and way better benefits, so I also say, suck it, “Martha.”

    4. bamcheeks*

      I definitely remember feeling like this, but now that you mention it I think I don’t any more? Somewhere over the last twenty years I stopped believing in that basic fairness and that achievements, hard work and a good attitude would be rewarded and that manipulation, toxicity, bullying etc would always get found out. I am not cynical enough to think that never happens, or that it’s not worth trying to be the best manager I can be! But I absolutely do not believe the system effectively sorts the good from the bad, and I know so many situations where “gets results (but also makes people’s lives a misery)” is seen as perfectly Good Enough.

      1. ThatOtherClare*

        Just take an honest look at history and you’ll realise that often the good guys don’t win. Sometimes the bad guys win and just use their new power to convince everyone that they’re the good guys.

        Being a selfish villain is a winning strategy in a majority-cooperative species like ours. IF your only goal is to get rich and fat and have lots of opportunities to reproduce, of course. If your goal is something a bit more advanced, such as social and emotional fulfilment, then joining in with the majority by being helpful and cooperative is the far superior way to go.

    5. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Yeah we can say well karma will get her, she will have trouble keeping good people, etc. How many companies have complete loons as managers that are still there 20 years later, still have high turnover and everyone just shrugs? Karma doesn’t always get the people it should.

      OP, all you can do is promise that you will never be like Martha.

    6. WorkplaceSurvivor*

      That line was so validating for me too. I still struggle with the injustice of how I was treated by my abusive manager, even if I’m doing better now. Acceptance appears to come in ebbs and flows, over many years.

      The biggest thing that made me stop ruminating about the abuse was actively standing up for myself, other consequences be damned. I got fired from the next job I got because I refused to be bullied again. But here’s the thing- getting fired for having my own back was one of the best things I’ve ever done for myself. All that ruminating was my brain and body trying to protect myself against that situation happening again. Once I started trusting myself, it lessened. And now I’m 2 years into a job I like, with kind and understanding bosses.

  10. sofar*

    OMG my email inbox sometimes doesn’t even refresh every 4 minutes.

    I’ve been there: My first job out of college, I had a boss who sent me an email asking me to Google an address for him (why he couldn’t use The Google on his own but was somehow running a business is something I still wonder). I was filing some papers in the filing room, saw his email 10 minutes after he sent and was typing up my response when he came over to yell at me.

    It also took me a long time to “get over” that job. Those things mess with you.

    1. Freya*

      Mine is set to refresh every 15 minutes because my time is billable in 15 minute increments, so it doesn’t make sense to interrupt what I’m doing for a new task before those 15 minutes is up.

  11. RVA Cat*

    Martha doesn’t want an employee, she wants a whipping boy. But it’s 2024 so she needs consent and safewords.

    2. Silver Robin*

      snrk

      Indeed, I doubt that was in the job description. Perhaps something for Martha to keep in mind moving forward…

  12. I DK*

    Yes, LW, look forward and kick the Martha dust from your sandals. We all come across those unfortunate people from time to time that we sometimes have to endure, but never have to remember. I’m sorry you had to endure such a horrible human being, but at least now you’re in a better, and saner place. Bullies suck!

    1. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I want an AAM support group for all of us who have had toxic bosses. It’s rather difficult kicking the Martha dust from our sandals (love that phrase, btw) when the toxic dust has gotten under our toenails. That said, time and a good new job really does help. And therapy.

      1. Dawn*

        I think the entire comments section is the support group for people who have had toxic bosses.

        Whomst among us? As the kids say.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        I quit a job at moderately-sized [toxic company] and got a job at a much larger company based in another state. I was surprised to find an employee discussion group called “Ex-[toxic company] Employees” that was basically a mix of social group, deprogramming and support group.

        [Toxic company] liked to recruit new college grads, so a lot of us had 3-5 years of experience and no idea how to behave in a functional workplace.

    4. Mr. Mousebender*

      Oh hell yes. I am not by any means given to hooting with laughter, but that is exactly what happened when I read this.

      You rock, OP, and I’m glad you are now in a much better position and working for much better people (not that “much better” is a hard target to reach when Martha’s the baseline!)

  14. Alexandra Beth*

    I’m so glad you’re out of there OP and congratulations on the new job!

    I had a similar experience years ago where my manager picked on every little mistake I made. She once scheduled a meeting without any explanation of what it was about and later told me off for not preparing for that meeting. Absurd woman!

    Be glad that Martha is now out of your life and you can forget about her.

  15. Yes And*

    I had a boss like this once. Every time I asked her for input, it was, “This is your job, why are you bothering me with this?” And every time I didn’t, it was, “How dare you go over my head?” I quit after less than two years, and I had similar feelings of anger that she got away with treating people like that.

    Well, she didn’t. It took another four years and an industry-wide reckoning with abusive behavior (involving an open letter from the organization’s volunteer corps denouncing her by name), but she was permitted to retire rather than be fired, and slunk off to the Hamptons never to be heard from again.

  16. AnonInCanada*

    BRAVO! I’m really happy that you were able to see Martha for who she is: a manipulative, conniving (word that rhymes with witch) who not only gaslit you, she also demoralized you, made you feel worthless, and bullied you in making you believe what she said was true.

    Karma will always come back to bite people like Martha in the ass. I’m happy you’re doing much better now that you’re far away from this toxic specimen.

  17. Some Internet Rando*

    This wasnt a management style… this person is abusive. So glad you got out. Congrats on the new job.

    1. Goldenrod*

      “This wasn’t a management style… this person is abusive.”

      THANK YOU, yes. Anyone who thinks there was a way for OP to win in this situation….has never worked for a “Martha.” It’s abuse disguised as management. The game was rigged from the start.

  18. Boof*

    Unfortunately sometimes “the best revenge is a life well lived” etc – more than likely martha will manage to make herself miserable (if she isn’t already) but it is frustrating that some people do seem to permanently able to do more harm than good and never really face obvious consequences to it – c’est la vie. I’m glad you’re out of there and sorry you even suffered those few months! Thank you for writing in and making it clear, sometimes no job is better than a horribly toxic job!

    1. juliebulie*

      Yes. Being Martha might be its own punishment. She sounds like a miserable person. Here’s hoping she someday meets her match.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I’d agree that she sounds miserable.

        IME micromanagers are often extremely stressed: they believe everything is always on the edge of flying completely out of control and they have to hold it together entirely on their own. There’s no one they can trust to help because absolutely no one else is competent or trustworthy. Others are only there to sabotage the micromanager’s work, let them down, or steal credit for their accomplishments.

        That feeling–that everything is on the edge of destruction and it’s all up to you to save the day–is exciting enough that some people engineer their lives around it, but it certainly isn’t what I’d call *happiness*.

        1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          This is consistent with the one micromanager I’ve had the misfortune of working under. It was on a big, high-profile project and she was a new manager. My read was that she was super stressed because she wanted it to go well and her instinct was to get very micromanagey and controlling. Within a few months, she seemed to basically want to do my job. It was a real bummer, since I led the project for 2 1/2 years before she turned up. And I hear she was really unpleasant to some of the other staff.

          She definitely wasn’t having a great time.

        2. allathian*

          Yeah, the one micromanager I’ve had the misfortune to work under in my career was trying to hide her incompetence as a manager. She hired me for my current job and managed to really mess up my confidence.

          It didn’t help that the senior person in my position was very hands-off. The manager didn’t understand our specialization in depth as she lacked the training, so my coworker was tasked with training me. Her attitude to my errors (as well as her apparent inability or unwillingness to greet people civilly -she just grunted- before noon) gave me anxiety and made me even more error-prone so it was a vicious circle, and our manager didn’t help. I see my ex-coworker about once a year at a professional conference and now she’s perfectly pleasant to talk to. We’ll never be friends but she’s a professional contact I value, and the feeling seems mutual judging by her behavior.

          The ex-manager still with us, as a senior IC in another department, and while she still has her quirks, she’s perfectly pleasant to deal with as an internal customer.

  19. Library Anoshe*

    I wonder if Martha had a friend in mind for the position and decided to bully you out of the job so she could hire them. Stranger things have happened. Doesn’t excuse her abusive behavior towards you in any way, shape, or form. I’m glad you have a new position and I know that you have taken the opposite track she did when it comes to training and managing someone.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      I’m normally a big proponent of assuming ignorance over malice, but a lot of this sounds almost nastily deliberate. Thinking that being a micromanager is a good thing HAS to be ignorance though.

  20. Dawn*

    I really appreciate the update on this one. I’m sorry to hear that it turned out like it did for you, but I’m thrilled you’ve got a job working for normal people who aren’t randomly vindictive.

    I will say, if it were me, now that I’m a while out of the job and not including it on my resume anyway I’d be absolutely sure to leave a review or three of the business on sites like Glassdoor detailing my treatment at Martha’s hands, both so that new hires know ahead of time what they’re getting into, and to drive her crazy.

    But that’s me! I’m glad you’re in a better place now.

  21. Wilbur*

    “The meeting has been over for 30 minutes; by this point you should have emailed me to ask what our next steps are.”

    Or your boss could email out minutes with next steps clearly assigned to each person, like a reasonable person.

    OP, your boss gave you the greatest gift of all-a life without them.

    1. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I shared this thought as well. If, by the end of that meeting, it wasn’t clear what next steps are or who is expected to take the next action steps, that’s the fault of the meeting leader.

  22. MicroManagered*

    Sorry to read this bummer of an update OP, but in the way of silver linings: I read SO MUCH clarity in this update! Everything you said is true.

    You already know this, but in case it helps to read again: Martha was an unhinged, unreasonable person who mentally abused you.

    Getting fired sucks but she did you a favor. Best of luck in the future!!

  23. JelloStapler*

    I am glad you got out and are seeing your competency and self-worth resurrected.

    Martha, probably: “Why can’t I keep employees in this role????”

  24. Sparkles McFadden*

    Thank you for sending an update! I would actually think about your letter from time to time and wonder if you’d gotten out of there yet. Your letter stuck with me as I had been in a similar situation and remembered how it made me doubt myself. I am so happy you landed somewhere decent!

    I get why you’re annoyed about Martha, but the Marthas of the world are miserable all of the time. Such people have no ability to be happy, and the closest they get is having the power to hurt other people. People like this do blow themselves up, but it’s not worth waiting around to watch it happen.

  25. Glad I Quit*

    OP, I could’ve written your letter. My Martha would pick on one employee until their performance suffered and they were given the option of quitting or being fired. Then she’d find her next victim, and I knew when my turn started. Martha was so awful I suffered severe sleep deprivation due to nightmares. I’d start having nightmares (or whatever they’re called) before I was asleep, jerking me awake over and over through the night. One that sticks with me is that a judge sentenced me to life working in that place, and my family broke out in screams while I sobbed that I couldn’t possibly have done anything to deserve such a fate.

    I was too exhausted to job hunt, so I quit before I even had another job lined up, which was a huge deal for me. I thought I’d worry about money, but I slept like a baby the first night I was free. I returned to my first job, where I had a wonderful boss. Three months in, he called me to his office, and I was so traumatized I was sure he was going to fire me. Instead, he asked me to head up a big new project. It was then that I realized how deeply I’d been affected and started to heal. It is hard to get over, especially when they get away with it. I’m so sorry you went through it, too, and I hope time and a good life help you fully recover.

  26. KC*

    LW, I’ve had two bosses in the past who were determined to find fault in my work, always moving goalposts, and generally just making up reasons to be mad at me. It IS demoralizing, and if you’re a person who cares about their work, it can take a huge toll on your self-esteem and even your understanding of yourself!

    So sorry you went through what you did, and I’m VERY glad to read that you’re in a better place now!!!

  27. Sneaky Squirrel*

    The number of times Martha would have fired me today alone for intentionally delaying my response to an email, saving documents to my desktop instead of a team folder so that no one else could touch it, ignoring a phone call (likely spam in my case), and for taking over a day to respond with my follow up to a meeting.

    LW, Martha got in your head. She was unreasonable. She expected perfection but continuously moved the goal posts defining it. No one will succeed with Martha because no one could meet those rigid expectations.

  28. Bookworm*

    Oh, does Martha’s situation sound familiar. Years ago I went from a big company to a much smaller one in the same industry. Job was exactly the same. The much smaller company was using very outdated software and the rest of the system was very homegrown. None of it worked like the well-known software package I was used to working on. The systems were frankly a huge mess. Boss said I was a mess and didn’t know my stuff. He had run the business by himself for years so someone else using it hadn’t been an issue. I was laid off after 8 months (more business didn’t materialize that was supposed to happen). I got another job within a week that used a big commercial software package, nothing homegrown. New job was totally different. I had to keep telling myself it was the previous boss and his jury rigged system, not me.

  29. JFC*

    Martha sounds terrible, but LW, it may be worthwhile to do some self-reflection as well. It sounds like you’re blaming a lot of your poor performance on Martha and the environment. Make sure you’re taking stock of where you can individually grow and develop apart from all of that. Otherwise, there may be similar issues in your career elsewhere.

    1. Tobias Funke*

      OP sounds to me as if they’ve done extensive reflection. Wouldn’t it be far worse for OP’s career to put too much stock in the feedback from this aberration of a three month job? (This is a real question; I don’t work in environments like this so I don’t know.)

      It really does sound as if OP has been successful elsewhere and is currently adjusting their norms back. Sometimes a foul person in a position of power is just a foul person in a position of power and the useful reflection is “I noticed it and acted on it and got the fig out”

    2. Helewise*

      It’s always worthwhile to engage in self-reflection, but I’ve become hesitant to recommend it to people who have been fired from places that were dysfunctional by pretty empirical measures (like getting reamed out for not replying to an email in four minutes). Decades ago now I was fired from a job like that and was such a conscientious person that it really, really got into my head – I took the need to Take Responsibility for My Actions very seriously, and carried the burden of their dysfunction as a personal failure. Sometimes the lesson is more than people can suck and less that we need to level up as humans.

    3. happybat*

      There really can be environments where it is made impossible for an employee to succeed, and this certainly sounds like one of them. In those circumstances, reflecting sufficiently to step past the assumption that ‘I am part of the problem’ and recognise that the environment itself was the problem is a sign of admirable clear-sightedness and personal growth and development.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      By “poor performance” do you mean not responding to emails within four minutes, or not sending emails asking for next steps before the meeting is even over? I do accept that your advice makes sense in healthy situations; I work in an industry where we are expected to self reflect critically every single day, even when things are going very well and we are succeeding. However, the most important part of good self reflection is to recognise the difference between good advice and insanity. To recognise when the directions you’re being given are so banana-crackers that they are simply laughable. To recognise that if you follow the advice of someone who proudly calls themselves a “micromanager” that you’re going to make yourself look as ludicrous and as stupid as they do. This is the problem with being a competent employee under an incompetent manager; your instincts are to reflect, take everything seriously and to problem solve the things within your control (yourself) but that’s actually a dangerous reaction to toxic situations where the whole point is to make you doubt yourself.

      1. Suck It, Martha*

        I did not and would not describe my performance as “poor,” so I’m not sure where you’re getting that. I don’t know what more I could learn from this.

        1. Missa Brevis*

          What there is to learn from this is that some people are really, really dedicated to victim blaming and playing the devil’s advocate, and that knowing when to just tune them out is a very important skill.

    6. Suck It, Martha*

      I did not and would not describe my performance as “poor,” so I’m not sure where you’re getting that. I don’t know what more I could learn from this.

    7. Elbe*

      This advice seems really poorly aligned with what the LW is describing. Martha’s treatment of OP was extremely unreasonable and deeply unprofessional. Asking someone to “learn from” an abusive experience comes across as very tone deaf and out-of-touch with the realities of a situation that is designed to destroy a person’s self-esteem.

    8. BekaRosselinMetadi*

      By poor performance, are you referring to not answering the email within four minutes? Because that seems a tad unreasonable. I’m not sure where you got the poor performance from-I can tell you from my own Martha that nothing would have made her happy unless I could read her mind, which I could not.

    9. allathian*

      Sometimes all the self-reflection you need is the ability to recognize when external factors (like an abusive boss) make it impossible to succeed. The LW did just that and got out, a lot quicker than many after 3 hellish months.

      The lesson I’m pretty certain the LW has learned from this is to recognize an abusive manager even sooner and get out ASAP.

  30. Abogado Avocado*

    Congratulations, OP! Martha does not deserve to work with you. So glad you exited her orbit and now understand how she got into your head. And what a triumph that you now have a position equivalent to hers! Sounds like you’re well on your way to being a much better boss than Martha could ever hope to be. Well played!

  31. No Longer a Bookkeeper*

    I’m so sorry you had to deal with this toxic witch, OP. She sounds EXACTLY like my last boss (who yelled at a coworker for going to the “wrong” post office, constantly moved the goalposts on me, and enabled the owner’s sexual harassment/ assaults, among many, many other things) and it’s so hard to move on when they mess with your confidence so much and you feel like they “won” because they got away with it. I’m still struggling with those feelings 2 years later honestly, but it has gotten better.

    If it helps, just know that Martha absolutely hates herself/ her life, which is why she’s determined to make her employees’ lives miserable. If she’s unhappy, everyone else has to be unhappy too! And karma will catch up to her eventually. My last boss is definitely committing fraud (she kept soooo many secrets from her own accounting assistants, it was insane) so I’m hoping that the IRS will catch up with her one of these days. I hope she and Martha both stub their toes every time they get out of bed.

  32. SilverFlint*

    I’m glad you got out, and youre comfortabke in your new job. You did nto deserve that treatment, Martha is batshit.

    Something similar happened to a friend of mine recently, except they stayed a year. The boss would berate my friend on phone calls (never emails or messages), nitpick their work, and constantly misgender them. When the boss had to do reviews every quarter, they were always glowing but the day to day was absolute garbage.

    My friend’s position was made redundant. They applied for and were offered another job in a different department. a
    A reference from the boss was basically a formality since they already worked for the org, but they needed it to move forward. When my friend reached out, the boss was condescending and mean. She said she would have to be honest and tell the new job that my friend’s work was sub par (not at all reflected in any of the official reviews, nor in the exit paperwork). Oh, and she’d have to tell the new job about my friend’s disability (a type of neurodivergence this boss thought made my friend incapable of anything. It does not. My friend is a Ph.D ffs). She put this in writing. In her official work email, to my friend’s personal email. *In writing*.

    We advised my friend on how to respond (don’t, not directly to her. Go up the chain). Friend copied in boss’s boss, asking if this was appropriate. They also reached out to someone they worked with outside the department who had a lot of pull at the org. Within hours of my friend reaching out, the shit hit the fan. Boss’s boss told my friend that the boss will no longer have communication with them, someone else they worked with will write the reference, there seemed to be no problem with my friend’s work according to the official record, and her personal feelings about my friend’s work is not the official stance of the department. He also said they would handle the discipline internally.

    The person outside of the department said absolutely not to handling it internally. She went to the department boss’s boss. And advised my friend, on this email chain where all of them could see, to get in touch with their union rep. They did. The department apologized profusely but at that point too many people were copied in and knew. It was no longer the department’s choice. Disciplinary action is being taken by the org, and the boss is still dealing with the union on that front as well.

    My friend is in the second week of their new job. Their new boss seems very reasonable and encouraging. Their union rep told them there is absolutely grounds for pursuing it , since the former boss threatened to tell a new employer about their disability. Friend just wants to settle in to the new job and do their work, which is fair enough. They are still recovering from the experience, obviously, but really like their new position.

    It exploded spectacularly this time, but I keep wondering how many times the boss got away with treating people like this. She has prestige in her field, her name is recognizable if you work in that sector. She was a little too comfortable saying vile things to my friend, and then the audacity of putting that threat in writing. I’m convinced she’s done this before, and either the people she did it to didn’t know how to make a formal complaint or the department was able to keep it quiet.

    1. Goldenrod*

      WOW. So glad your friend is okay.

      Your story, although not identical, reminded me of the movie “Tar” which is an *amazing* portrait of a horrifying boss whose karma (eventually) catches up to them!

  33. Anne Shirley Blythe*

    Hurrah, OP! I purposely didn’t skip to the end and hoped you found something else. I truly hope karma deals with Martha, in a spectacular fashion.

  34. Elbe*

    Congrats to OP for getting out of that mess and moving on to something better.

    Getting a job that is effectively a promotion after being let go is a huge win. I’m curious as to how a situation like this can be handled in an interview. How does a candidate explain “I was fired, but I’m not a bad employee – my former manager is a raging, illogical bully” without seeming unprofessional or negative or defensive?

    1. Lacey*

      You don’t explain it that way. You don’t bring that up at all.

      I had a very similar situation and I told prospective employers that “While it seemed like a good fit in the interview, it became clear afterward that they really needed someone who could do X.”

      1. Elbe*

        I get that approach, but I’m not sure how, exactly, it would play out in a context like this. I imagine most hiring managers would be reluctant to give a step up to a person who couldn’t hold their previous position. Assuming that it couldn’t be left off of the resume entirely, it seems like something hiring managers would specifically ask about.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          Sometimes companies/people are so well known in the wider industry as being unreasonable that you don’t have to say a word about it. I’ve known companies who deliberately scoop up all the good employees lost by competitors by a particular source of incompetence.

    2. Gh0st*

      I haven’t had to talk about this exact scenario (I wasn’t fired), but I have talked about a similar, very negative professional situation in interviews. I described it as a “challenging situation where clear communication was a key issue” and then I broadly talked about things I did to handle it (e.g., “I took a look at my own communication skills and worked to deliberately improve my own clarity. I also began maintaining clearer records, asking key follow-up questions, and sending written follow-up emails to help eliminate miscommunications.”).

      For me, the keys are keeping it high-level (no drama-filled details), being unemotional/matter-of-fact, maintaining a professional tone, and not dwelling on it. Though, I also just try to steer clear of the topic entirely if at all possible.

    3. I Have RBF*

      “It was a skills and culture mismatch, and fortunately we figured it out before I’d been there very long. They really needed an expert with Y, and I hadn’t had enough experience in the niche application of that.”

      Literally happened to me.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      To the tune of Handel’s Hallelujah chorus:

      Suck it, Martha!
      Suck it, Martha!
      Suck it, Martha! Suck it, Martha!
      Martha, you suck!

  36. Lacey*

    I’m so glad you were able to find something quickly.

    I worked for someone so similar – though not quite so unhinged (4 minutes!) and it really messed with my concept of myself as a professional.

    I’d been in my field for 10+ years and in 3 months, I wasn’t sure I knew how to do the work at all.

  37. el l*

    Glad you’re out, and in a reasonable time. Even at the cost of being fired. Only thing to say: Do whatever it takes to not turn this experience into negative training, or let it warp your norms.

    I once dated someone controlling, and one of the things I realized when the dust settled was, “Someone controlling will turn you into a liar. It’s only a matter of time until you have to start lying in order to bring stability to their drama and crazy expectations.”

    A similar logic holds for micromanagers – you will learn helplessness, eventually and no matter what it costs you, because that’s the only way to keep stability.

    Getting fired quickly was probably a blessing.

  38. Goldenrod*

    OP, first of all – CONGRATS! Martha (inadvertently) did you a favor by firing you, the important thing is you are OUT OF THERE. And yeah – you’re doing much better now, so Martha CAN suck it.

    This part stood out to me:
    “The four-minute email happened about a month after I started, and I got fired just under the three-month mark”

    In the most toxic job I’ve ever had, the abuse really culminated at the three-month mark. I think that’s some kind of weird cut-off for abusive people – like, they can restrain themselves somewhat up until then. Although Martha does sound like she lacked restraint the entire time. And I totally agree that she was CAUSING whatever mistakes you made by creating an unsafe environment.

    Last thought: I do NOT believe that everything happens for a reason. However, I do strongly believe that you can make meaning out of what has happened. In other words – you never need to be grateful for this experience, but it CAN have meaning to you going forward, because now you know more about how to navigate a toxic situation, and how to move on!

    Congrats again!!! I’m so happy you found a better situation.

    1. pally*

      In some workplaces, the probationary period ends at 90 days.
      In others, some benefits don’t start until 90 days have passed.

      After which time, there’s likely more involved with terminating an employee. Probably easier to get HR and/or management to agree to cut loose the employee if their stay has been less than 90 days.

  39. Sister George Michael*

    So glad you got out of there! The same thing happened to me when I worked for a screaming micromanager: the number of mistakes I made went sky high! Because I was under so much pressure.

    As to your last paragraph, when I left, the HR person told me ‘well, at least this was a learning experience for you’ and I told her, ‘I already knew I hated being yelled at before I got this job.’

  40. WantonSeedStitch*

    Ugh, this reminds me of my long-ago job (first one out of school) that practically drove me to a nervous breakdown. I stuck around for three years, during which time we had so much turnover it was ridiculous. I nearly got fired, but left before that could happen. The constant stress and anxiety of working there made it impossible for me to do my best work, and I started worrying that maybe I was just incompetent and not cut out for the working world. Well, it didn’t take long before other work experiences reassured me that no, that was not the case. It really was just an AWFUL employment situation.

  42. Goldenrod*

    Excellent point – although in my case, similar to some of the other stories shared here, my boss never wanted to fire me. She was disappointed when I quit! And she gave me glowing performance evaluations.

    However, she still wanted to abuse me and criticize me on a daily basis. I truly believe she just psychologically needed someone to abuse. In the end, I don’t see much of a difference between my boss and Martha. I’m sure Martha would have tried to fire me – my boss had a different style, but it’s all the same abuse in the end.

      1. pally*

        Interesting.
        Do you know if your boss gave you a good reference-on a par with those glowing performance reviews?

        Curious if these types of bosses ever see their behavior as abusive. I’ve had a boss or two who recognized that they are difficult to work for. It didn’t seem to modulate the behavior any.

        1. Goldenrod*

          “Do you know if your boss gave you a good reference-on a par with those glowing performance reviews?”

          This is such a good question, and I don’t know the answer! I work at a large university, and HR has a strict policy of getting a reference from a person’s current boss (before moving to a new department). So I did worry about this!

          But the boss who ended up hiring me was something of a renegade – and she flat out told me, “I think that’s an unfair policy, so when HR emailed me their reference, it went right in the trash!” ha ha! She never even read it!

          “Curious if these types of bosses ever see their behavior as abusive.”

          I’m so curious about that too! I have to think, on some deeper sub-conscious level, she knew she was an a-hole…But she would never have admitted it. I’ll tell you what though – EVERYONE on campus knows. And it’s a big campus! ;p

  43. Karma happens*

    I’m sorry this happened to you, and this might not help, but this seems unfortunately common and I do think karma will catch up with her. Just this past week I heard that someone who had made my life difficult at my last job was suddenly removed. Up until then they could do no wrong, my pleas to management had fallen on deaf ears, but something happened, management finally realized that they were a problem, and they were gone. I hear that the character of my old workplace changed overnight. It was like a fever lifted. It’s too bad though that these people don’t go away sooner.

  44. Full-Time Fabulous*

    Very glad you survived and are thriving now, OP! Unfortunately I know your situation personally from my own “Martha.” It is a real shame that Martha’s are allowed any kind of authority and power over others in any circumstance but they are way too common in workplaces. The long-term effects of working for and being victimized by a Martha are real. Please take comfort in knowing that what you feel is real and you are entitled to those feelings. Take care of yourself, heal from this, and know that you are not alone.

  45. Gh0st*

    Thank you for the update, OP!

    Your letter really resonated with me- I was trapped in a somewhat similar situation a few years ago, and it really damaged me. I learned to hide, doubt myself, and fear/avoid conflict even more than I already did. At the time (and for a long while afterward) I didn’t realize how deep and complex my wounds were. I’ve only recently been able to start processing what happened so that I can legitimately heal.

    I think what especially struck me was the end of your update, when you mentioned wishing it hadn’t happened, having difficulty accepting that your bully didn’t face consequences, and just having to look forward. I feel exactly the same way. It’s hard to accept that there’s no justification for what happened and that there’s no cathartic, satisfying conclusion. I don’t have much advice since I’m still working through things myself, but I hope you keep moving on and I’m sorry you had to go through this.

    2. Elbe*

      Agreed. Watching people seemingly get away with truly horrible behavior is demoralizing. It grates against every concept of fairness and dignity and decency that a person holds dear.

      But, life is long. The Marthas of the world are getting away with it for now. People always get away with things until they don’t.

      One hopeful thing to keep in mind is that people are only able to behave like this in very dysfunctional work environments, and ultimately that is really going to limit their ability to advance by moving jobs. People like OP could very likely surpass them in rank and may potentially have the influence to deny them a job or a reference in the future. It’s not a given, but it’s also not uncommon.

      I also agree with Grumpy that people like this are miserable in their own lives. To paraphrase Elle Woods, happy people just don’t abuse their employees.

  46. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    Shocking that you might make an unusual number of mistakes when you’re constantly stressed out by your awful boss! /sarcasm

    I’m glad you’re out of there, LW!

  47. NotARealManager*

    Congrats, OP!

    When I was freelancing I worked for a Martha once: micromanager with specific ideas and vision, but she also did not want to tell you what those ideas looked like. You were supposed to use your best judgement and then inevitably be wrong so she could be mad about it. I didn’t usually turn down work in those days, but when her assistant contacted me to work on another project, I’ve never texted back a “No. Have a good life!” as fast as I did in that moment.

    In my experience, people almost always make more mistakes in Martha environments because…

    1) Marthas invent mistakes that don’t exist in the real world (e.g. the four minute email response or buying the “wrong size” water bottle)

    2) You start to rely on Martha’s feedback before you make any movements or decisions and start to lose faith in your own judgement (which was usually fine to begin with). Then you second guess everything you do, ultimately leading to a worse decision.

  48. 653-CXK*

    Martha is the epitome of an [backside]
    retentive, manipulative, micromanaging harridan who should have zero business managing anyone. She sucks and she will never change.

    May a yak relieve themselves in large quantities on Martha’s front driveway, preferably in front of their expensive sportscar.

    1. Mr. Mousebender*

      Your second paragraph is a delight; however, I would love to imagine the yak relieving itself through the open top of said car, rather than in front of it!

  50. learnedthehardway*

    Your reaction of feeling like you were under fire in your current job (initially) is exactly the way I felt when I got my next job after working for someone quite like Martha. Took me 2 years to get over it (I had worked there for 2 years – wasn’t as smart as you to start looking immediately).

    I hope you find peace with everything – I shared your resentment of my Martha for a long time, but eventually was able to realize that mine was their own worst enemy.

  52. Bookworm*

    Thank you for the update, OP! And thanks for sharing your experiences: I didn’t have one exactly like that, but did feel like I never quite understood the expectations of me, was made to feel stupid for asking, and being gaslit into asking for reasonable boundaries (not calling after a certain hour, especially if it’s not an emergency) was unacceptable, etc. I also didn’t get out in time and am still in the full time job hunt but the time has helped give me some perspective and your letters have helped.

    Thank you again for sharing and I hope things only continue to improve for you!!

  53. Numbat*

    Martha sucks.

    I’m so glad you got out! And that she didn’t get to bully you any longer than 3 months.

  54. Raida*

    I’m glad you don’t have to work with her anymore and I’m sorry you worked with her at all!
    There is value in learning what reasonable and unreasonable looks like.
    And being able to say to yourself “This person shows signs of being unreasonable, I’m going to take steps 1,2,3 to record this stuff to protect myself” Personally I learnt as a teenager with a few bully managers in retail and fast food, so I’ve never had an issue as an adult in an office with unreasonable – I have the experience to state “This is the issue, here are the options, which one will we go with, good now I’m putting that in writing” to any manager that’s unreasonable.

  55. mrsfields4701*

    I don’t really have anything substantive to add, other than that I hope Martha’s socks are always just a little bit damp.

  56. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

    “How does a candidate explain “I was fired, but I’m not a bad employee – my former manager is a raging, illogical bully” without seeming unprofessional or negative or defensive?”

    That’s a good question. That’s what I wondered when I was fired from a company after eight weeks (before my three month probation period ended) because I was told that I was better at my job than Anna, who had been working there for a few years, and Anna told the big boss that I weren’t fired, she would quit, so I was fired. (The big boss specifically told me this – it is not a guess on my part.) And the big boss told me that I was ineligible for rehire, because I was fired before my probation period ended, and he said that if anyone called him for a reference for me, he would say that I was fired and ineligible for rehire.

    I solved the problem by not putting the company on my resume. I didn’t have the faintest idea how to convince a prospective employer that even though I was fired from my previous job and was ineligible for rehire, I was nevertheless an excellent employee.

    1. allathian*

      Were Anna and the big boss in a relationship, I wonder?

      You were lucky in that you were fired after 8 weeks, few hiring managers would wonder at such a short break between jobs on a resume.

  57. zolk*

    Congratulations, LW! I find it takes me 1-2 year to get over what I call “work PTSD” from these kinds of bosses. I hope you can recover steadily and safely.

  58. Kandijay*

    I had this boss. I put up with it for two years but it all came to a head when he called to berate me because his class was cancelled for the second time due to inclement weather. I control neither the university’s inclement weather policy nor the actual weather. I went to my grandboss and learned that boss had indeed been trying to get me fired, and grandboss wouldn’t let him. GB said to me that if boss couldn’t get along with me, he couldn’t get along with anyone. He still wasn’t fired. Thankfully the pandemic hit days later and we all went WFH. It was harder for him to find fault with me when he couldn’t literally look over my shoulder everyday, and before we all went back to the office boss had taken a position overseas. Now he messages me from time to time to talk about the old days as if we are best of friends and invite me to visit him in new city. Hell to the no. My new boss is awesome and I’m so glad I hung in there, but I legit was planning on walking before covid changed everything.

    1. Kandijay*

      Edited to add: So glad you got out! I’m sorry you had to go through it at all. I’ll never understand how someone can be that toxic, administration knows it (your other boss had to have seen the signs in that meeting) and nothing is done about it.

  59. hereforthecomments*

    I’m so happy LW that you got out! Reading this gave me flashbacks to a toxic workplace that I lasted four months in. It took me years to get over the mental and emotional torture inflicted by my supervisor. Your comment about finding fault no matter what you did really hit home with me. Mine wrote me a three-page letter about leaving work on time (calling me names, etc.) and that I should have read her mind that she wanted to see me after she’d disappeared for hours that day with no instruction for me to stay or when she might be back–seriously, did we work for the same person? Or maybe all toxic bosses have the same rule book?

  60. Wannada Zippity*

    Oh man, this sounds so familiar. I was in a job with a boss who seemed to dislike me from day one. He sensed he could bully me and did! I reverted back to childhood patterns when I faced a bully regularly and so I couldn’t even “listen” to him properly. That was just one criticism I got.
    I started to look for new jobs when my flight or fright response was with me 24 hours a day, and THEN he fired me. God, I was so relieved. I vowed never to work for assholes like this again. I’ve been in my replacement job for nearly 12 years and getting the salary and perks I’ve always wanted. I’m staying until retirement. The boss loves me now.

Comments are closed.