argumentative coworker always says, “repeat back to me the point I just made”

by Alison Green on October 21, 2024

A reader writes:

I am a middle manager who works with an employee I’ll call “John.” John does not report to me, but there are scenarios in which I supervise aspects of John’s work and am in a position to give him feedback.

John has a lot of experience (he’s been doing his job about as long as I’ve been alive), but at times he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know. He reacts defensively to most disagreements/feedback and regularly gives staff feedback and suggestions that directly contradict what managers have told them to do. He also is willing to die on pretty much every hill (let’s say we were making teapots with flowers painted on them and each flower had six petals; John would loudly and publicly insist it is CRUCIAL that the flowers have seven petals, to the point of making a scene in front of his peers). There have been times when I have had to pull John aside to discuss this behavior.

One thing John does in those conversations drives me bonkers. He will insist I don’t understand his argument, and then say some variation of, “Repeat back to me the point I was just making.”

This feels so condescending and I hate it. I recognize I may be sensitive to this in part because of the gender dynamics (he is a man and I am a woman, and he has done this with other female managers). It feels like he is a professor who is scolding his student.

On the other hand, I don’t want to overlook something I could improve in our interactions simply because his behavior gives me the ick. I now try to summarize his points early on in the conversation (“what I’m hearing you say is…”), but somehow we still usually end up with him pushing me to repeat his argument back to him. It almost feels like an attitude of “Clearly you don’t understand my point, otherwise you would agree,” but of course I don’t know for sure that that is his intention.

What can I do to help improve the quality of our conversations without being a pushover?

Ugh, yes, he sounds condescending.

There are times when it can make sense to say something like, “Can you tell me your understanding of my concern, so we can spot if something is getting lost in translation?” And when I’m managing someone and assigning work, I’m a fan of, “To make sure we’re on the same page and I didn’t miss anything, can you do a quick summary of next steps?” (The latter can be really helpful because managers sometimes think they’ve been clear about their expectations and then are shocked to discover that the other person came away with a very different understanding.)

But the minute there’s any whiff of any condescension in your tone or manner, this will stop sounding collaborative and start sounding obnoxious. And it doesn’t sound like John is doing it in contexts where it would make sense; as you say, it sounds more like he implying, “Maybe you aren’t smart enough to understand what I’m saying.”

Since he clearly thinks this is an acceptable way to communicate, I’m curious what would happen if you start doing it back to him to  level the playing field. The next time he asks you to repeat back his point, do it — and then say, “And now I’d like to ask you to repeat back the point I was making too, so we can ensure we’re both understanding each other.” Do this a few times and he might dislike it enough that he’ll stop doing it to you. Or who knows, maybe it will result in improved communication on both sides, which would also be good!

There’s also the option of simply telling him how it’s coming across. For example: “I get the sense you’re asking me to repeat back your point because you assume I must be misunderstanding or I’d agree with you. That’s not the case.” And maybe: “You’re coming across as very adversarial right now. Is that what you intend?” (You need to say this calmly and in a tone of genuine curiosity — don’t sound agitated or it loses its power.)

But also, John sounds like a tool and, if you haven’t already, it might be useful to share some feedback about his approach with his manager.

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{ 212 comments }

{ 212 comments… read them below or add one }

    1. Butterfly Counter*

      As a professor, I mostly agree! I have asked a student this maybe once in my career and it was done with a worried tone rather than a condescending or scolding one. This was a student who had ADHD and I could see them mentally checking out in the middle of my sentence when I was giving instructions on how they could possibly pass my class because they were not doing well at all. I was giving them a checklist and I could see them concentrating more on a conversation in the hallway, 4 doors down, than on what I was saying. So I stopped and asked for re-engagement.

      (I had also been giving this information on the syllabus, in announcements, and in a specific email to them; they were just so disorganized that they couldn’t ever find my requirements.)

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      1. Sloanicota*

        My guess is that this “technique” came from couple’s counseling, which may explain why he’s more likely to use it with women, even we set phasers to Maximum Generous and assume it’s subconscious.

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        1. Anandatic*

          I see no reason to jump to such a random assumption! By that logic, we could just start naming random places where he might have picked it up (the archery field!) – but the “where” doesn’t really matter. What matters is that his tone is condescending, he is coming across as sexist, and this isn’t appropriate behaviour for a work environment.

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          1. Worldwalker*

            And it especially isn’t appropriate for a work environment with one’s superior. He’s acting like the OP is his subordinate, contrary to the org chart, solely because she’s female. That’s totally unacceptable.

            tl;dr: This guy is a problem. Loop in his direct manager.

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        2. LunaLena*

          I also wonder if it’s an old child-rearing tactic – I’ve definitely seen/heard of parents giving their kids a list of chores to do and asking them to repeat them back so the parent can be sure that they heard everything. That should be even more reason to not use it at work though, and why it would seem more condescending or infantilizing.

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          1. Selina Luna*

            I do, in fact, use this tactic with my 4-year-old. “4-year-old, can you tell me what I told you to do?” It’s not condescending in this case. It’s checking that my kiddo heard what I am asking and will complete that task. But if a boss or coworker did this with me, especially as a response to an argument or disagreement, it’s possible I would flip my lid a little bit.

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          2. aebhel*

            Yeah, this is something I’ll do sometimes with my kids – especially my younger one, who’s prone to spacing out and saying ‘yeah okay’ when I ask him to do something without really registering a word I’ve said. But, like. He’s seven, and I’m his mom. Outside of very extenuating circumstances, this is really not an appropriate way to talk to a coworker.

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        3. Starfleet HVAC Engineering*

          This kind of technique, three-point communication, is common when coordinating maintenance or relaying instructions/orders from a control room out to the field, but that’s to make sure there is no misunderstanding of critical steps.

          CR: “Open valve 67 and drain the remaining liquid in the line into the waste container.”
          Field: “I heard open valve 67 and drain the line into the waste container.”
          CR: “Confirmed, open valve 67 and drain the line into the waste container.”

          But in everyday work conversation, this is nonsense. We do that in plant maintenance because valve 67 could be draining something very nasty and hazardous, not because we think the technician is an idiot.

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          1. Lenora Rose*

            I was trying to think why this is different from the common thing done with a complaint, of repeating back the gist of the issue, which is usually helpful to either de-escalate or to keep the conversation on track, and I think the difference is found in this example, too:

            Rather than the first step being demanding the other person repeat you, you’re first opting to repeat them. IOW, before you’re asking them to demonstrate their understanding, you’re indicating your own understanding.

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          2. Kevin Sours*

            Also this sort of conversation frequently takes place in loud environments where there is a significant risk of mishearing something.

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        4. Festively Dressed Earl*

          I immediately thought “mediation” because that’s where I learned the technique. Getting others to paraphrase what they’re hearing is a great way to quickly identify miscommunications if you’re genuinely interested in clarifying and resolving conflicts, but never phrased as “repeat back” and never weaponized. I wonder how many required HR mediations John’s been through?

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      2. Elle*

        I’m not trying to be unkind, but I see that you admit that the student from your story had ADHD, but you’re also using language that indicates you believe they simply could have tried harder. I hope your understanding of ADHD/treatment of ADHD students has evolved over time.

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        1. LikesToSwear*

          As someone with ADHD, it is completely on the student to learn the coping skills needed to succeed. Yes, the professor should help by providing the information in multiple ways and formats, but ultimately, they can’t do it for the student. The student has to take responsibility for themselves and get professional help for their condition; whether that is therapy, medication, or some combination.

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        2. Good Lord Ratty*

          The student is not a child that they must be treated with such condescension and kid gloves. They are an adult, whose responsibility it is to manage their medical condition to enable them to do things like engage in and pass classes in service of the goal of getting a degree.

          Being disorganized is not a moral failing for an ADHDer (or a neurotypical person either, for that matter). But neither is it a benign difference in some cases – it can be a serious impediment to having a functional professional and personal life. While addressing this can be a major undertaking, it’s a) worth doing to the extent possible and b) the responsibility of the student to do so.

          I am a neurodivergent person who used accessibility services extensively while in undergrad and then grad school. Yes, it was daunting; yes, the bureaucracy was confusing; yes, I felt like an imposter – but I got the support I needed. I don’t have ADHD, and I know that particular condition/way of being can make it even harder to navigate these systems to access support. But the simple fact is that we are all responsible for ourselves – and that includes getting the help and support we need, even if we need support to access support (by which I mean getting a friend to help you fill out accessibility services forms or help you make doctor’s appointments and so on).

          I don’t feel served by narratives of neurodivergence that position my difference as some sort of noble infancy, or treat people like me as something other than capable adults.

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          1. Sam I Am*

            Yes, the academic services are so the student can learn the information, not to give them a “Degree Lite.” The degree is the degree. In a profession the work is the work. Each one of us, regardless of how we learn, or what our strengths and weaknesses are, need to get the result.

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          2. KGD*

            I like how you phrased this. I have ADHD and am a teacher who teaches executive functioning skills to teenagers with ADHD, and my mantra on this topic is “It’s not my fault, but it is my job.”

            It’s not the student’s fault that they are struggling to pay attention to something they find stressful and/or boring. That’s really common! It IS their job to figure out a solution that will help them reach their goals. It’s great that they have a professor (Butterfly Counter) who is willing to offer them information in a variety of formats. If they need a different accommodation, it is also their job to figure out what that is and ask for it.

            I like framing it this way because most of my students really struggle with intense shame. I do too sometimes! My laundry pile makes me feel like a terrible person and I haven’t been able to get myself to the dentist in a year, and that’s WITH medication and a great support network. But at this point in my life, I can separate the shame from the task. I don’t need to feel ashamed – it is okay to struggle. But also, if I don’t want my teeth to fall out, I will have to get myself to the dentist.

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        3. Red era*

          “…and I could see them mentally checking out in the middle of my sentence when I was giving instructions on how they could possibly pass my class because they were not doing well at all. I was giving them a checklist and I could see them concentrating more on a conversation in the hallway, 4 doors down, than on what I was saying. So I stopped and asked for re-engagement.

          (I had also been giving this information on the syllabus, in announcements, and in a specific email to them; they were just so disorganized that they couldn’t ever find my requirements.)”

          Yeah I really don’t see where they’re just passing this student off as “could have tried harder” or an outdated understanding of ADHD or whatever. If the student was still struggling even with all this hand holding then maybe they needed help beyond what the college as a whole could provide at that time (coming from an ADHD-er who wasn’t diagnosed until FORTY YEARS OLD, WELL PAST COLLEGE).

          Even among neurotypical populations, college isn’t suitable for everyone and that’s fine. At a certain point, the student themselves still has to actually do the work *themselves*.

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        4. Butterfly Counter*

          Oh, I don’t think they could have tried harder. Tried something different? Maybe. But I don’t know what. I also don’t know what more I could have done for them. I follow every accommodation to the letter and am generally pretty nice about students who are struggling for whatever reason.

          I was bringing up an example when I’ve used similar phraseology as in the OP (and am a professor), but was hoping I was a lot less of an a-hole about it. More like, “Okay, I just told you the 2 assignments that were late and the extra credit project that could increase your exam score and when they are all now due. Did you hear all of that? Can you repeat it back to me?”

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    2. MotherofaPickle*

      I have had that question posed to me many, many times by professors and I LOVED IT. Of course, I was surrounded by profs who loved imparting knowledge in a small department of a fairly obscure field and I was the student popping in at office hours to ask completely off the wall questions.

      So, uh, I guess I have unique experience. I miss my old profs…

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      1. MK*

        I really think this is annoying OP because of the tone, and possibly the frequency. If you can see your colleague making an honest effort to communicate and trying to find out why you aren’t understanding eachother, it wouldn’t be that grating. But not when you can see it’s someone who is convinced they are right and you are the problem and trying to trip you up.

        Also, a teaching environment is completely different. It’s pretty much a given that your professors know more than you and will usually be right, it would a problem otherwise.

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        1. Sloanicota*

          Yeah and in this metaphor it would be more equivalent to the student telling the teacher “repeat after me” since OP is senior.

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        2. duinath*

          Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever been on the receiving end of that one but I have asked someone to tell me what exactly I had told them just then.

          They did not say anything I’d actually said, they instead had gone past that and made up a lot of motivations and requests on my part that simply were not there. So that being the case I don’t feel bad about asking, but I never asked again. It’s too adversarial to make a part of your everyday communication, imho.

          I do think this question John keeps asking is the least of the problems with him. When he asks so often to have things repeated (assuming OP is not *actually* grossly misunderstanding him on the regular, which I feel like she would have mentioned) the easiest way to deal with it is just to …say no. Isn’t it? Just say no and move on with your point.

          The arguing is the bigger problem in my mind, but unfortunately I doubt OP can do much there, not being his main manager.

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      2. Nightengale*

        I think it’s different circumstances

        how frequently
        tone
        teaching vs work
        training/teaching vs an arguement
        the teacher/manager to the student/employee vs the other way around

        Teach back is definitely a recommended method in medicine. Actually you are supposed to have someone not just explain back but also demonstrate. This is to avoid situations like one I learned about where a hospitalized person was taught to inject insulin on oranges. . . so the person was discharged from the hospital and continued to inject oranges.

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        1. Haggis*

          Yes, totally agree. If it’s done in a respectful, collaborative way, then it is a tool for making sure you are both on the same page.

          It’s the undertone of “if you understood properly, you would agree” that makes it patronising.

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          1. Nightengale*

            according to the story, yes

            it was at a talk on health literacy – making sure we communicate in ways that the patient best understands

            the story was the patient was admitted, given insulin by medical staff and shown how to inject oranges. patient went home and was readmitted with alarmingly high blood sugar. the patient stated that they were following the directions exactly. finally someone asked the patient to SHOW them what they were doing at home. the patient asked for an orange. they were brought an orange. the patient injected and then ate the orange

            the team learned a valuable lesson

            oh and here it is on an article on health literacy
            https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/739582?form=fpf

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    3. Nesprin*

      I disagree- specially for a training position, checking for comprehension is really important!
      It could be worded more gently like “Ok, could you please summarize what I said so I’m sure we’re on the same page”

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  2. Successful Birthday Rememberer*

    I already want an update.
    Also, if he’s doing this with other women, it is definitely time to talk to his manager about this behavior – she needs to know.

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    1. Yup*

      This. It reeks of workplace sexism and he needs to be spoken to and otherwise dealt with. Women should not have to bear the brunt of this.

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    2. Artemesia*

      this — this shouts misogyny in the workplace. A subordinate who has to bring his woman manager to heel and assert his dominance.

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    3. No name*

      there is a big difference between an instructional and a collaborative situation. in the former this question might be fine. in the latter.. not so much. I would be tempted to say.. I *could* repeat but I’m not sure why I would do that.

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      1. CJ*

        I’ve taught adults in a college setting for twenty years, with students from 16 to 76 (literally). Except for some extraordinary situations, I would never use it – even with best intent and tone, it can come across as confrontational, and if the student has even a hint of ODD or PDA or lingering authority trauma, it can activate that.

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    4. Falling Diphthong*

      I’m rooting for the update where OP repeats the question back at him, and he’s like “Finally someone is communicating precisely on my wavelength! You said that teapots need to have six flower petals pointed on them to bypass the limits of the Fibonacci sequence and because of Iowa’s import regulations!” And OP can reply “The real problem is Iowa’s tracking infrastructure” and mutual understanding shall abound.

      Not betting on it, but it would be nice to bypass the expected, “The way I speak to you is completely unacceptable to mirror back at me.”

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  3. Snarkus Aurelius*

    I dated a guy who genuinely thought that the only reason I ever disagreed with him is because I didn’t understand something. Finally, I said, “I understand what you said. I do not agree with you. That’s the issue at hand.”

    We did not last.

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    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Clearly you only disagreed because of a lack of understanding.

      Folks like John do not get that people are allowed to not agree with him. Or even direct him at work to do work he disagrees with. As in, this is the decision made on this project, it is not a debate or a negotiation, not like, here do this illegal or unethical thing.

      Johni s gambling on his I’ve been doing this job forever so clearly I know what I am doing to get away with his behaviior.

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      1. JSPA*

        People who are sticklers for getting everything “Right, by the absolute yardstick of The Truth” can end up in the same place, even if they have a small ego to the point of self-abnegation.

        Sometimes the best way to cut through is as follows:

        **************************

        John, I’m seeing several recurrent mistakes.

        First, you’re mistaking “having a strong argument” for “having a relevant argument.” For example, we are decorating teapots, not illustrating botany textbooks. The correct number of petals for our imaginary, decorative flowers is whatever number the designer specifies.

        Secondly, you are mistaking often being right about facts and factoids for always being right, and treating those who disagree as likely idiots, unless proven and re-proven otherwise. This isn’t acceptable, regardless how much experience you have. And if there’s a gendered component to this flavor of rudeness, it opens us up to legal problems, if you’re acting as if you have some sort of managerial role.

        Thirdly, you are mistaking “feeling strongly on the basis of experience” for “being the person who makes the decisions.” It isn’t your remit to demand that people give you answers, or recite back your argument to you. Workplaces are not a public forum of equals. Nor a pure meritocracy. People have ranks, roles, jobs to finish and places to be. Unless there’s a significant life-or-limb risk, you should normally expect to get at most one shot at making the argument. If someone isn’t “getting” your argument? Make a better argument next time.

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        4. 1-800-BrownCow*

          I like the 3rd reply!!! I work with someone who is never wrong (or she thinks so) and often tries dictating decisions based on what she thinks should be done and will use her supposed (often made up) experience as reasons to do what she says. She constantly tries overriding managers and it often goes up the ladder to a higher up to overrule her, even with the person 1 step up the ladder above her making the decision that she argues. I will need to remember this for my next head-butting session with her.

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        5. C in DC*

          In a different context, but over the weekend I used the phrase, “You’re not the one making the decision on this” to get someone to stop pestering me about what was supposed to happen next. This was followed by “But we decided…”, to which I said, to limit argument, “That wasn’t conveyed to me.” In reality, the group hadn’t made a decision during our earlier discussion, and I was trying to circle back to come to a consensus.

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      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Clearly you only disagreed because of a lack of understanding.
        I think this has become more prevalent in recent years, as we have less direct interaction with a range of people (i.e. “bowling alone”) and can go online to find our little tribe of closely aligned people.

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        1. Worldwalker*

          The basic logic is this:

          1. I am a good person.
          2. I believe X for Reasons.
          3. You are a good person.
          4. I have explained Reasons to you.
          5. Therefore, you obviously agree with X.

          If you don’t agree with X, then either you’re not a good person, or he hasn’t sufficiently explained his Reasons.

          There is no space in that logic for the concept that good people might differ on their personal reasons. Those differences can be as simple as “I hate jazz!” or as complicated as international politics. The consistent factor is that the person who acts that way is extremely rigid and thinks that his Reasons are everyone’s reasons, and his feelings are everyone’s feelings. It’s a form of main character syndrome, in a way, with a strong Dunning-Kreuger streak. He’s not just right, he’s right, and everyone who doesn’t agree wholeheartedly with him is either bad or ignorant, and he’ll either avoid the badness or correct the ignorance.

          And this is all complicated by the fact that there are people who conflate divisions over support of extremely awful political positions (“let’s encourage the police to hurt people!”) with divisions over, say, whether or not one likes jazz. For example, I dislike jazz, but I’m certainly not going to end a friendship over it; I might even go to a jazz concert with a friend if they really needed a companion for that spare ticket. But I could not maintain a friendship with someone who thinks that some people should be considered second-class citizens, as an example; that’s not a preference, that’s a totally different mindset. Yet we tend to treat them the same: a difference in taste versus a difference in values and morals.

          This also seems to be at least part of this type of attitude: Believing that his taste issue is a moral issue (good people don’t mix paisley and plaids) and thinking, because in his mind the victim is a good person, and thus have the same moral values, that all he has to do is explain it thoroughly and, once the victim understands him, they’ll agree that he is indeed correct. And, of course, the fact that it’s work and thus a matter of neither taste nor morality, but instead what the policy/boss/law/whatever demands, makes it even more problematic.

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          1. MAC*

            The first part of your post reminds me of a conversation my mom had once. My parents were members of a statewide organization and a few times a year all the chapters would meet up. This org was in no way associated with religion or any church. She was chatting with another lady, who was quite some older, and was asked “what church do you and your family attend?” My mom explained that our family is not particularly religious and did not attend any church. This lady’s jaw dropped to her ankles and she sputtered “But … but … but you’re all such nice people!” She could not fathom that both things could be true.

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    2. Tea Rocket*

      My ex was the same. He also claimed my rebuttals to his arguments were evidence that I hadn’t been paying attention to what he was saying and was instead just planning what I was going to say next.

      We also did not last.

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    3. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      Hopefully you got out quicker than I did when my ex was like that. Years later I genuinely thought I was a total dipstick, that I knew nothing.

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    4. Dust Bunny*

      I went on two dates with this guy and it was very, very, clear not only that I was just as smart as he was but that I wasn’t going to play his game.

      Guess who else did not last?

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    5. Too Long Til Retirement*

      Just wanted to say that this thread of people who left men with this behavior makes me SO HAPPY and gives me hope!! I hear about far too many people(mostly women of course) making excuses for and staying with men like this and I find it frustrating, as a woman myself. We can do so much better for ourselves!

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    6. Loose Socks*

      This has become my standard reply when arguments circle. Also, when someone is just wrong, I will say “I understand what you are trying to say. The issue is you are wrong and you aren’t willing to accept that.” I should add that I only say that when I am 100% sure I am right. I work in HR and get a lot of pushback over policies that don’t have a gray area, or on employment laws we have to follow, regardless of whether they are “morally” the best option.

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      1. CosmicKiwi72*

        I’m a fan of “I understand what you are saying, but that’s not an option/not what we’re doing. How would you like to move forward.” Repeat as necessary. If it goes on too long I’ll add “you haven’t come up with any realistic suggestions for moving forward so my plan is X, your next action item is Y.”

        I use this when there are several different ways forward and I’m trying to give someone the opportunity to have some control over the situation so that it is hopefully easier to get buy in on the new plan. I rarely get a satisfying suggestion from the person being difficult, but it allows me to tell my manager and HR if needed that I offered them a chance to contribute to the plan and they didn’t take it.

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    7. Swiss Army Them*

      I have known soooooooo many men like this. A friend of my ex-boyfriend started red-faced full volume yelling at me once because I said “I understand what you’re saying. I just disagree”.

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    8. Generic Name*

      I divorced that guy. When we were married, I’d hear all about how his coworkers and management were all idiots. At first I was sympathetic, but eventually I realized that my ex was likely a problem employee. OP, in all likelihood, this guy is not trying to work collaboratively and reach mutual understanding; he is communicating to you that if you understood what he was saying, you would agree with him. Alison’s suggestion to flip it back on him is good. But be prepared for him to respond poorly, and get ready to loop his manager in.

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    9. Meep*

      I know I could be pretty pig-headed about my opinions and being “right” in my youth, but I think now I am pretty pig-headed about letting people have their dang opinion and only correcting facts.

      I am glad you got out because I might’ve killed someone.

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    10. Modesty Poncho*

      Ugh, I’m terrible about this. I make sense to me, so clearly if I just made sense to other people they’d agree with me! Boyfriend has had to do a lot of patient explaining and me a lot of hard work to stop over-explaining my positions and just let it go.

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      2. Elle*

        For what it’s worth, this is quite common for autistic folks. I’m the same way- obviously if I could just put my thoughts in exactly the right words, everyone would understand and everything would be fine (giant eye roll @ self).

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    11. Elle Woods*

      My late aunt was like this. Both of her husbands, most of her kids, and most of my cousins would eventually give in to her. My brother and I would not, so we were persona non grata with her. Didn’t bother us a bit.

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    12. Irish Teacher.*

      I once had a student ask repeatedly for permission to do something after I’d said “no.” They finally said, “Miss, I need you to listen to me.” I told them I had heard their request and they replied, “so can I?” and looked utterly shocked when I again told them “no.” They did stop asking after that though. So yeah, some people seem to think the alternatives are “other person agrees and des what I want” and “other person doesn’t understand or isn’t listening to me.”

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      1. SnackMonster*

        That is a conversation I have had with my own teenagers.
        Them: Question/Request
        Me: No
        Them: You are not listening to me!!
        Me: I did listen to you and I understand what you want, but I am saying no. Listening and saying yes are two very different things.
        I’m glad to see that is a universal problem and not just my teenagers. Fortunately I have broken all of them of the Yes=Listening and No=Not Listening

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        1. MigraineMonth*

          I still remember the time I wanted to watch an R-rated movie (The Matrix) at a friend’s birthday party and my mom said no, but was willing to have an entire discussion with me about her objections (the violence) and listened to my thoughts. At the end she decided that I was mature enough to make my own decision and I decided the movie was too violent for me to watch. When understanding someone else’s point is more important than “winning”, you can get unexpected results!

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          1. SnackMonster*

            Yes, those are also conversations that I have with them. I never want them to feel like they don’t get to express the “why” of the ask and almost always leads to more insight into the convoluted mind of a teenager. I learned a LONG time ago that some battles are worth fighting, some are situational and some should not be battled over. Giving them the opportunity to present a case for their request teaches a valuable lesson in narrowing down the best argument, but sometimes the final answer ends up being no.
            When I was a teenager, I begged to be allowed to watch The Simpsons and my mom watched it with me with a discussion of what her objections were with specific examples. I did not enjoy seeing how right she was in the situation but understand her point now!

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            1. Junior Assistant Peon*

              I remember when Bart saying words like “butt” on TV was considered shocking circa 1990. It’s pretty tame compared to today’s animated shows!

              Reply ↓
        2. Ally McBeal*

          It’s the vast majority of (if not all) teenagers. I volunteer at an after-school program and recently had a teenager tell me and another volunteer he was going to go do XYZ, when XYZ always requires permission from a staffer. We told him to wait a minute while we confirmed with a staffer, and he blew his top and accused us of calling him a liar. We restated it at least twice but he had already made up his mind that we’d told him no and called him a liar. This went on until a staffer wandered past and we were able to dump the whole situation in their lap.

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        3. Distracted Librarian*

          I’ve dealt with a similar dynamic in the workplace, where people think anytime they don’t get what they want, they aren’t being heard or respected, and any disagreement is inherently disrespectful (I’m talking about polite disagreement, not actual bullying or shaming). They don’t seem to understand that, “I heard you, I listened to you, I respect you–but I don’t agree with you” is a reasonable response in a healthy workplace culture.

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      2. jotab*

        That was me! I was explaining something to my director and he said: I am listening, I don’t happen to agree. Finally, a lightbulb came on, I stopped talking and learned something very valuable from him that day

        Reply ↓
      1. Distracted Librarian*

        Oh, yes, “irrational” – the label some men use to invalidate anything a woman says that a) they don’t agree with, or b) that challenges their authority.

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    16. Not that other person you didn't like*

      I have literally found myself saying “No, I understand you… I just disagree with you” to people who do this.

      Reply ↓
    1. ScruffyInternHerder*

      I literally just used “I don’t need to repeat clearly incorrect “information” so I’m not going to”.

      I’m exhausted on behalf of the LW because John sounds like a lot.

      Reply ↓
    2. FashionablyEvil*

      I laughed, but also, this definitely ratchets up the aggression level which I don’t know is helpful to the OP.

      Reply ↓
    3. Wah*

      Or it’s your points, did you forget about them? why don’t you repeat them and see if those are the points you remember, and you can then remember the points I make as well.

      Reply ↓
  5. Caramel & Cheddar*

    Where is John’s manager in all this? You shouldn’t have to be the only one managing this behaviour, LW.

    Reply ↓
    2. Putting the Dys in Dysfunction*

      I’m going to take a wild guess that John’s manager knows all about his behavior and is refusing to manage him.

      Maybe LW should take a page from Alison’s advice on such situation and put the problem back on John’s manager, where it belongs. When John is gumming things up or alienating everyone else, have that feedback go right away to his manager, either via LW’s manager or directly. If it’s a project that LW’s group is doing for John’s manager than they’ll have some leverage: “I can’t work on this if John is going to insist on this protocol”.

      John continues with this behavior because it’s not enough of a problem for John’s manager. Make it so.

      Reply ↓
    1. Elle*

      I genuinely think this will get OP the most success. Don’t engage, don’t try to do John a solid by telling him how he comes off. John already believes his opinions matter more than they do. Just decline to get into it and move on.

      Reply ↓
  8. Dawn*

    Unless I’m missing something, while you’re not in charge of this guy, you’re still higher than him in the hierarchy; tell him to knock it off! It’s not ok that he’s talking to you that way.

    It’s not ok that he’s treating anyone that way and I’m not sure why his managers aren’t managing him, to be frank, but it’s especially egregious in your case that he thinks it’s fine to be rude and condescending to you.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sloanicota*

      I did wonder if OP could be very direct about this, since she’s senior, and particularly if she’s got the backing of his manager. Maybe, “John, you might not intend it this way, but asking me to repeat your points is coming across extremely condescending. I’m going to go through (manager) to address the question of petal counts from now on, please address it with them.” But do ensure you have their manager’s buy-in first.

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  9. Roonil Wazlib*

    Yes, this definitely seems like “well if you REALLY understood my point you’d agree” communicated poorly and probably with some gender dynamics affecting his manner of communicating that feeling. I agree with the do it back approach. It’ll allow you to demonstrate how he can understand your point and disagree, so the same holds for you. Reinforce that specifically to him, and if he doesn’t stop, say, “We’ve tried this in the past and it’s not an issue of me misunderstanding your point. Let’s move on.”

    Reply ↓
  10. Good Enough For Government Work*

    Oh my God, he sounds like a complete nightmare. I don’t have anything to add to Alison’s advice, but LW – you have my sympathies.

    Reply ↓
    1. Magnolia Clyde*

      Seconding this. I have no extra advice, but I feel deeply sympathetic for LW.

      (By the way, I love your name. A favorite phrase in our family, as nearly all of the folks in my immediate family wound up becoming state employees.)

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  11. BetsyTacy*

    I’ve supervised variants on this person. Ultimately, I found that there was a reason that they had been in the same position for so long… Although they had technical proficiency, they were somehow the biggest obstacle to getting the job done. Also… it’s not you or how you’re saying it or you being sensitive. It’s John.

    The thing that worked the best for me was just saying, ‘I hear you; however… is this the hill you want to die on?’ I realized that asking her to change her position was borderline impossible; however, I would ask if this was the thing she wanted to put all her time and energy and capital into fighting.

    Reply ↓
    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      I like this approach. Probably the worst thing you can do is have long debates with him about what is correct / who’s right. Nothing wrong with explaining the rationale of the direction or decision. But when the conversation stops being productive, it totally makes sense to go with some variant of “I hear you, however….” Like, however, senior leadership has decided X. Or however, we’re going to proceed with the current plan and do Y if that issue comes up. Or, however, Z means that what you’re suggesting isn’t feasible, so we’re going to move forward with the current plan.

      Also, the goal isn’t to get John to agree with you. That’s just setting yourself up for a bad time. It’s to hear him out to a reasonable degree and give him clarity about how the project will be moving forward.

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        Also, the goal isn’t to get John to agree with you.

        This is a very important point. I have a streak of stubbornness (though hopefully it doesn’t manifest like John’s does!), and if you need me to agree with something I don’t, we will go around in circles for hours. It’s much better to just say, “I understand your objection, but we’re going to proceed this way.”

        Also, I have no idea if this is at play at all, but I was most resistant to instructions when I thought I’d get blamed for something going wrong. For example, I’d say, “I don’t think we should do the project the fastest way, because we’ll have to fix it every time the database upgrades.” I’d be told to do the project the fastest way, and *then* I’d get in trouble because of fixes were needed for every database upgrade. It made me distrust and resist managerial decisions.

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        1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          I’m also pretty stubborn and don’t like it when I’m just told to do something or change things “just because.” I want to know why. But I work in an organization where sometimes, decisions get made by senior executives for silly reasons and we just have to roll with it. I’m sure that sometimes, there are factors I just don’t know about. And sometimes, they knowingly prioritize short-term stuff, even if that makes the longer-term stuff harder.

          I just try to remember that the nature of the hierarchy is that those people get to decide this stuff. So I pick my battles and pick when to end my battles rather than becoming an office-based Don Quixote, tilting at windmills. It’s just the nature of the beast and if I want to have more decision-making power, I need to find another position.

          The issue of getting stuck with the blame sucks, though. And it’s hard to say “I told you so” to people with more power. Saw someone on Twitter recently suggest “This was identified early on as a likely outcome.” Because I definitely wouldn’t want to take crap over something that I tried to prevent.

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    2. JustaTech*

      Part of growing as a professional is learning that 1) you don’t have to die on every hill and 2) just because you are letting something go, or doing something you don’t fully professionally agree with, doesn’t mean that you have to actually change your mind.

      Like, there’s a procedure that I disagree with on a technical front, but the people in charge want for less technical and more business reasons. I don’t have the capital to change their minds or positions (two different things) so I have let that go, even though I still disagree with it.

      It seems like “John” hasn’t ever learned that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Kyrielle*

        Yup. If I see something I think should be another way, I’ll say something, but unless the decision is illegal/unethical/hazardous, I’m probably not going to push it after the initial comment. I’ll just coast right on down that hill on the side they told me to and keep going.

        Reply ↓
      2. UKDancer*

        Yes there are some things my company wants done a certain way. I don’t always agree that’s the best way of doing the thing but I accept they have reasons for wanting the thing done that way. If they ask me for my opinion I would give it but otherwise I do the thing the way they want (assuming the thing is legal).

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      3. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        For sure. I’ve also accepted that, since my employer is paying for my time, it’s kinda theirs to waste on inefficient processes or asking me to start something before we have key information and then I have to basically restart the whole thing later.

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      4. Cedrus Libani*

        Agreed. Part of “adulting” as a technical person is learning that the best decision from an all-around perspective may be pretty darn suboptimal from your viewpoint.

        I’ve had several conversations that were basically this…

        Boss: Cedrus, I need you to ABC.

        Me: Is this for the D project? EF is better, faster, and cheaper.

        Boss: I know. But the only distributor in our region that can supply F at production scale is G. Their regional director is our CFO’s ex-husband. She’s convinced that if we do business with them, he’ll find a way to screw us. Which might even be true, but it doesn’t matter; she’d have to approve the contract, and she won’t. Trust me, I’ve tried.

        Me: Sigh. Heard. Be aware, if this is my new priority, H is getting pushed to Q2 at the earliest.

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    3. Observer*

      The thing that worked the best for me was just saying, ‘I hear you; however… is this the hill you want to die on?’

      That would make sense, except for the added layer that the LW notes – John will probably say “Yes!” to that question.

      Reply ↓
        1. smirkette*

          I mean, this can become a self-soothing activity for OP if they document what the flips out about, and then eventually, not only will they be presented with confirmation that yes, this is an untenable way to work, they also have the necessary documentation to bring to John’s supervisor.

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    5. smirkette*

      I like the “is this the hill you want to die on?” question because if delivered with the right tone, it can shift a conversation from win/lose to collaborative problem solving if you can get them (or if you’re the hold out, get yourself) to articulate exactly what the concern is. It worked on me when I’ve been called in a couple of times.

      Of course, as with so much, it only works if the colleague in question is actually arguing in good faith and not out of spite/insecurity/hubris/etc.

      Reply ↓
  12. Quinalla*

    I very much like the idea of turning the tables as Alison suggested. He also needs to say back your points. It is a great communication technique to do this as OP even mentions, but yes this definitely sounds like “Surely you must not understand my point or you would HAVE to agree with me.” This is the difference between wanting to be right vs. get it right or wanting to lecture vs. learn.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sloanicota*

      If I had the patience, I might ask on a day I’m feeling particularly calm and collected; “when you ask me that, what is your intended outcome?” or even “I’ve been wondering, John, where did you learn that conversational technique?”

      Reply ↓
      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Or some version of asking him why he asks this / whether he has any articulable reason to think you don’t understand.

        Reply ↓
      2. BatManDan*

        It’s been my experience that people cannot, under any circumstances, answer the question “what was the outcome you EXPECTED ?” without instead answering the question “what was the outcome you WANTED?” I mean, those are two different concepts, but people CANNOT separate them when it comes to poor choices on their part. (I know the concepts are easy to separate in a hypothetical – no one has trouble distinguishing the two questions when it comes to “putting it all on 32 black” on a roulette wheel.)

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        1. Silver Robin*

          I have so. many. conversations like this with my friends when I give (solicited) advice. And these are generally thoughtful and compassionate individuals. It is so difficult to separate when strong emotions/ defensiveness are involved.

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        2. Dawn*

          That said, I think most dudes that do this have “expected” and “wanted” fully aligned in their head. Obviously that’s not the same thing as a realistic expectation, but they genuinely believe every time that the other person is going to say, “Oh, I clearly just did not understand your very clever and wise point, you are a genius.”

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    2. sb51*

      “Surely you must not understand my point or you would HAVE to agree with me.”

      Augh. That’s a very good way of putting it. My challenge has often avoiding being seen as a John-type when it’s my manager saying this, and I’m *trying* to drop it but I’m not actually willing to lie.

      Like, to take the letter example, [manager] had asked me how many petals I thought looked nicest, without any other information, and I said 7, and [manager] said “well, the consensus from the last BoD meeting (that you weren’t at and have no way of knowing about) is that they think 6 looked best, so you should think that”. And, well, no, it’s an opinion, I still think 7 looks nicer, but I’m mostly glad we’ve settled on a number so we can start production. manager is like “how could you possibly say you think 7 looks nicer, we need to have a conversation about how you don’t listen” and I’m just like “can I please go back to to my desk and start cutting 6-petal templates now”.

      Reply ↓
  13. Alexis Carrington Colby*

    Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    But I bet with anything you come back with he’ll go, ‘you’re being defensive!”

    I worked with a couple Johns at a horrible place several years ago. They literally work out of the same playbook!

    Reply ↓
  14. bamcheeks*

    LW, one trick I’ve used in conversations like this is to talk less. Don’t jump in to push your argument, and if John does the “now repeat back…” trick, pause before speaking. If he leaves a gap and obviously expects you to counter-attack, just wait a few seconds. He’ll either feel compelled to jump in, or there will be a proper pause and you’ll feel as if you’re able to start a new thread when you do pick up.

    This can give you a surprising amount of control in the conversation. Firstly, it lets you feel calm, and if you are feeling stressed or like you’re on the defensive, it’s very useful to gather your thoughts. It can also mean that you are genuinely considering what to say next, and sometimes, you’ll notice a gap or an inconsistency or some new information in his argument that you do actually need more information about: “Sorry, just to check, can I ask you what you mean about the llama reports being delayed? I wasn’t aware of that, so can I just check when that happened?” If you do repeat back to him, use it as an opportunity to clarify what you’re talking about, “What I’m hearing you say is that the flowers have always had seven petals, so can I just check where you got that from?”

    It often feels in adversarial conversations like the person who does the most talking is “winning”, and it can put you in a position where you feel like you’re trying to play catch-up and need to speak faster or raise your voice. Sometimes doing the opposite is much more powerful, though!

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    2. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      I like this!

      Reminds me of someone I knew who, in noisy meetings, would speak a little quieter than most people. It often seemed to result in the others quietening down to listen to them.

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        I do an exaggerated version of this when I’m training on presentations. I say, “Sometimes if you want to really emphasise a point you talk LOUDER— but I used to have a colleague — who when she wanted to make a point — would pause to get everyone’s attention [pause] – get slower and quieter [long pause] – and even quieter.” Then I stop dead still give them a serious look, and nod very slowly and seriously. You can hear a pin drop. It makes me laugh so much because despite the fact that I am literally telling them what I’m doing, it still works.

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  15. EBStarr*

    Given you’re higher than him in the hierarchy, what about a very dry, “No thanks, I’m not going to do that”? That’s how I respond when my preschooler starts talking to me like she’s the parent…

    Reply ↓
    1. Myrin*

      Yeah, I was surprised that that wasn’t one of the suggestions because it’s the first thing that came to my mind. OP doesn’t have to play his stupid game!

      Reply ↓
      1. Sloanicota*

        Yeah it would actually be a much more challenging dynamic if John was a peer or senior to OP, or if they have the institutional backing and you don’t. The letter didn’t necessarily suggest that was the case, so own your power OP!

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    3. Elle*

      Why are we even engaging John at all? “John, I won’t be doing that. Regarding the number of petals, the correct number has always been six. Teapots with seven petals will be sent back/not pass QC/whatever.

      My team has a John. His specialty is offering incorrect/misleading but extremely confident sounding “guidance” in team meetings and then, when challenged, trying to tell me that “it used to be” the way he said it was. (It never was. I’ve been here longer than him. I was involved in hiring him. Ugh.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Sloanicota*

        I wonder if you could get ahead of it next time. “John, I hear you that you think six petals is more symmetrical. It’s my decision to make and I’m going with five.” If you used this, I’d say *don’t* attempt to defend or assert your “side” of the argument if you don’t actually need his agreement to continue. If you start with “I hear you,” it might cut off his favorite conversational technique because you can say, “I already did that, John, we’re done having this conversation.”

        Reply ↓
        1. Jshaden*

          I’ve used versions of this, usually with engineers, which usually boiled down to “I hear you, and if this were a perfect world with no outside impacts to this project I would agree with you. But this is not a perfect world, and from a program management position we will be doing X because of Y factors that are impacting this project.”

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      2. wendelenn*

        –Six shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be six. Seven shalt thou not count, neither count thou five, excepting that thou then proceed to five. Eight is right out.

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    4. Camelid coordinator*

      Ha, I did this with a new doctor who was very dismissive of my concerns about potential side effects of treatment. The second time she asked me to say what I think the issues are so that she could shoot them down in a snarky way, I said “Let’s not play this game” and laid out the pattern.

      Reply ↓
  17. Bike Walk Barb*

    I really like Alison’s options. Much better than my inner sarcastic voice that said, “This isn’t a course in active listening techniques and you’re not my instructor.”

    I’d definitely take the pattern of behavior to his manager. You can let them know how you’re planning to handle it. They may not observe it but if they do they can reinforce that he’s not supposed to tell other people how to carry on a professional discussion.

    Is his manager also a woman? Hoping that conversation doesn’t set you up for some variation of “Well, DO you understand his points?”. If that’s a likely outcome then I might also share this with HR if the behavior continues after you’ve tried a few of these techniques.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sloanicota*

      I’d definitely ask around to find out if John is doing this to men or not. If it’s a clearly gendered pattern that’s definitely something easy to bring to the manager, and if no traction, directly to HR.

      Reply ↓
  18. DameB*

    Honestly, this guy is a grade-A asshat. I love the suggestion to turn it back on him. These Guys inevitably get all affronted when you treat them they way they are treating you.

    Reply ↓
  20. Not A Manager*

    “John, just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they don’t understand you. I heard your point, I disagree, and we need to move on.”

    Reply ↓
  21. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

    Hmm, well, what a jerk. I think it would also work to respond with “what is it that you think you haven’t communicated?” And some variation of “This is the decision that has been made, nothing you’ve said warrants changing it.” And then, assuming he continues to argue, “I think we’re just rehashing at this point, I note that you disagree with the decision, but that is the one we’re going forward with, so please stop telling people otherwise.”

    Consistently giving people directions that are contrary to the decisions made is PIP territory in my mind. This is insubordination. Women have been socialized to believe that we need buy-in from men and that if we just communicated better, we could get it. I’ve done this So. Many. Times. With someone like this, it’s just not possible.

    Reply ↓
    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Great point in your second paragraph. If he’s regularly giving instructions to staff that contradict what management have already told them to do, it’s important to figure out what’s going on and take concrete steps to stop it. At best, it’s putting those staff in an awkward situation and at worst it could seriously mess up your projects.

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    2. lost academic*

      I think it also helps to remember that there are many, many situations at work where you need to understand that you just need to do what you are told and make sure it’s clear that you know what to do and will do it. And on the flip side for managers (and some of us who are female) that we have every right to expect that our instructions will be followed when given. Not everything – few things really – are requests that are open and welcome to debates. They’re requirements.

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  22. Kat*

    Maybe even try asking John “is there a reason you think I don’t understand your point?” Or “why do you assume I don’t understand your position?” Something like that might also signal to him he’s coming across condescending but ALSO force him into articulating that because you don’t agree with him, you must not understand. By making him articulate that, one could then respond “just because I (or others) disagree with your position doesn’t mean we don’t understand it.” It then allows you to move past the moment without engaging in repeating his points back to him which is a way he’s prolonging the argument when, conceivably, you want him to move past whatever is bothering him and get with the program.

    Reply ↓
    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      I like it. I also think with this guy, a simple, “John, don’t talk to me like that again” is warranted as well. He knows what he’s doing.

      Reply ↓
  23. Maple Moose*

    Oh, I have nothing helpful to add as I am mentally giving John a smack upside the back of his head for his (misogynistic, in my opinion) ways. Please send an update!

    Reply ↓
  24. Antilles*

    Given that OP appears to outrank him (at least in terms of her own project), I would start sometimes deciding to shut the argument down, full stop, right then and there. If he’s interrupting the meeting to loudly insist on seven petals? Nope, we painted the prototype with six petals, the client liked it as is, we’re sticking with the client’s approved six-petal design, so moving along I think Bobby had an update on the budget forecast…
    Reasons and debate are for reasonable people, not people like John.

    Reply ↓
    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Reasons and debate are for reasonable people, not people like John.

      Say it louder for the folks in the back.

      This is key. No matter what you do, John will just pivot to something else.

      Reply ↓
    2. Kat*

      With that example, absolutely, I agree. When simple decisions have been made, a discussion or debate does not need to be had about why or why not. I was thinking more along the lines of a decision where perhaps John is raising some issue or concern that is beyond just because he doesn’t like what was decided. If he’s using the line “repeat back to me….” then OP could try the lone I suggested.

      Reply ↓
  25. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    Sadly, being a woman at work you encounter these types. I’m willing to put money on him having a ‘men are more logical’ mindset because I’ve seen it endless times.

    Get blunt. Not rude but blunt. This is essentially a ‘this is not a productive conversation, you need to follow the procedures and that’s really the end of it’.

    Because he’s looking for a way round you.

    Reply ↓
    1. Kiv*

      In my experience, “men are more logical” usually really means “men put principles* over people and/or practicality” which is then framed as right and proper regardless of whether those principles are irrelevant, unimportant, or stupid.
      * said principles are almost always just a post hoc rationalization of wounded pride anyway

      Reply ↓
  26. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    John is seeing the world as a clear, non-negotiable, binary choice. There is right (7 petals) and there is wrong (everything else). And if OP insists on 6 petals, it’s because OP doesn’t understand the fundamental nature of the universe that causes 7 petals to be right and everything else to be wrong. And I suspect John does this in part as a way to capitalize on his years of experience – he gets to skate by with these definitive statements, even if he hasn’t done the rigorous analysis, because everyone is afraid to call him on it.

    So there are two issues here. 1) Don’t act condescending and superior with your colleagues.
    2) Don’t make those decisions and pronouncements of categorical truth like you’re the only person who understands the problem.

    Somebody needs to break that log jam by puncturing the axioms and assumptions that John is using to base his logic chain on. I would not advise OP to take this on directly, but rather to just gather the evidence needed and passing it on to his supervisor. “When John insists on 7 petals, I think he is assuming that client X is doing the same thing as client Y. But they aren’t. Can you make sure John reads the client specification docs before assigning him to these projects in the future?”

    Reply ↓
  27. Ilima*

    On behalf of every mediocre man who’s ever treated me this way, both in and outside of the workplace: kick rocks, John.

    Reply ↓
  28. Jonathan MacKay*

    I worked with someone who had a pet peeve of A: People stating the obvious, and B: People repeating back to him what they “THINK” they heard him say….

    These two things combined to make a nightmare, because instructions would be given once, and asking for clarification would just infuriate him.

    Reply ↓
  29. Hawk from Customer Service*

    Coming at this from my customer service work background, when I’ve had customers who respond this way, it’s because they don’t feel “heard”. Now, that could mean that “being heard” is really “agreed with”, or getting the solution they want instead of what I can provide, but it also could mean “being heard” means “emotions responded to”, where someone wants their emotional state “heard”. For example, someone who wants a photocopy of something and the printer is broken might yell at me for not letting them use the staff machine, or they’re yelling at me because this is the third roadblock and they have a deadline and are feeling frustrated. I’m not saying OP should be responding to John’s emotions or what he’s saying in a way to placate, or to fact find, or to coddle, because this is unacceptable behavior. They shouldn’t have to do this kind of work at all. But, sometimes there is an interaction you have to get through before you can chat with your manager (shift work, meetings, leave, etc). Sometimes the way to get through an interaction that has the potential to go into a back and forth like this is to proactively say “what I’m hearing you say is [repeat what he’s said], and [response]”, or, if it has reached that point, to respond to the emotion and not the content. Does this work all the time? No. But sometimes I’ve found that it works with the condescending butts. I had a coworker like this myself and I had to have a conversation about it more than once with my manager.

    Reply ↓
    1. RL*

      Letter Writer, Allison’s advice is good, but also listen to Hawk. They make a good point about emotions, but it applies to other aspects of the problem as well.

      Even if you hate the guys guts, if you are creating a communication vacuum you are creating a dysfunctional work relationship.

      He cannot be more clear that he 1) knows the communication is not working 2) is upset the communication is not working 3) is asking you to participate in making the communication work.

      Others have said, correctly, to be equally clear: “I understand your points: a then b, then c. However, I think you are wrong and disagree.”

      Is it condescending for him to ask you to summarize? Of course. But also, why weren’t you doing it on your own the first time he got defensive or clearly felt misunderstood? Personally, any time I have a passionate colleague (of any gender, age, or reporting relationship), I am replying with “Can I repeat back to you to make sure I understand?” and following up with a summary. Passionate people care and are used to everyone brushing them off, getting rejected and overall caring less, doing less and accomplishing less because others care less than they do. If you show the passionate person you care enough to have listened, they are vastly easier to deal with and open to hearing where things are wrong or different than they believe because you’ve gained their trust.

      Reply ↓
  30. a clockwork lemon*

    I worked with a guy like this. He acted the way he did because he didn’t know wtf he was doing and he had spent the bulk of his career getting away with it by being exhausting and talking like an anime villain to make himself sound smarter.

    Actually naming the problem got him to knock it off pretty quickly. “I understand what you’re saying and I disagree with you. If you would like to discuss possible paths forward, we can have that conversation. Otherwise, let’s go to [manager] for a tie breaker, because arguing for another hour isn’t productive.”

    This was obviously just the tip of the iceberg. Broski was so insecure that it never occurred to him that I truly do not care about being right or potentially looking dumb in front of my manager; I just wanted to get the work done and to stop wasting hours every week getting yelled at in meetings. I think he lasted about four months after I stopped letting him get away with being a bully?

    Reply ↓
    2. Elbe*

      100%

      There are so many people in my industry who aren’t great at their job and try to cover it up by being dismissive, rude, and condescending to everyone. Conscious or not, they just make themselves so unpleasant to disagree with that most people don’t bother.

      Reply ↓
      1. a clockwork lemon*

        I tell people often and truthfully that the skill set I draw on most heavily in my job is customer service skills perfected over 10-ish years working retail and in call centers. I won’t pretend it’s not an additional layer of emotional labor, but a big part of the reason I’m successful in my role is that I’ve got a deep bank of goodwill in and out of my department.

        My experience so far is that the old elementary school “I am rubber, you are glue” mantra is basically a superpower if you’ve already got a reputation for being cheerful and willing to collaborate.

        Reply ↓
  31. Unkempt Flatware*

    If this question were directed at an erstwhile workplace advice columnist from Forbes who gave terrible advice (L.R.), she’d say, “LW, you seem afraid of your employee’s strength and intelligence.”

    Reply ↓
  32. Teapot, Groomer of Llamas*

    The thing that stood out to me is that he has done this with other female managers. Has he done it with male managers as well? If not there is a sexism issue that needs to be addressed with him n general.

    Reply ↓
  33. COBOL*

    When somebody has this much experience and still an individual contributor, they likely have a fatal flaw or two (or they prefer being an individual contributor). I’m pretty sure everybody is aware that John is an ass.*
    Obviously only the LW is aware whether the company has decided that whatever expertise he brings is worth it, or if it’s just nobody has dealt with it, but my general advice to LW is to not to waste time “managing” him. John has to do what you say, and your time is too important to deal with his petulance. Save the managing for people who can be managed.

    *It sounds like John is an all-around ass, but also a sexist super ass. This does seem like something that needs to be addressed, but with his manager/grandboss.

    Reply ↓
  34. Stuart Foote*

    I have encountered more than a few Johns…very often it seems like they have trouble seeing things from any perspective other than their own. Maybe teacups look better with seven petals but to match the overall tea set they need six…so from a certain standpoint John is right and feels like LW is arguing past him. But unfortunately from the standpoint everyone else is using he is completely wrong.

    Even if John improves his communication with LW, he still seems like a pretty poor employee. I hope his work is not crucial to the success of the company because he is a huge net negative (based on the letter; maybe he does a lot of other amazing work). I’m not saying he needs to be fired, but…maybe he needs to be fired if he’s telling people to ignore management’s direction and spending time arguing with managers about how to do things?

    Reply ↓
  35. CheesePlease*

    “I am trying to have a collaborative discussion about how to ensure we have a process for X, and you seem intent on making sure everyone agrees with you. If you can’t participate in a collaborative discussion about X, I am going to end this meeting and reschedule for later this week” is also a way to deal with people that take over meetings with their opinions

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  37. Katherine*

    OP, sorry you have endured this but thank you for posting the question. Alison’s response has answered one I’ve had for years. I never worked out what I should have said – until today.

    I had a female co-worker (mentioned bc I’m also female) in my team and junior to me, but whom I didn’t manage.

    She’d often challenge me by saying, ‘Yes, but don’t you think that [something I’d clearly not just said]?’ in response to something I’d said. It drove me bonkers as it was so rude and unhelpful (and was part of a pattern of unhelpful behaviour). I could never work out what to say in the moment because it made me so mad.

    ‘You’re coming across as very adversarial right now. Is that what you intend?’ is the phrase I needed. Thank you for this closure!

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  38. Parenthesis Guy*

    It would be interesting to talk with some of the male managers about John to see if he does that to them. If he doesn’t, that points towards this being a gender thing. If he does, then at least you know he’s not doing it because you’re female. It would also be useful to know if his co-workers dislike him as much as it seems they should or if they think he’s generally a good guy with a few weaknesses.

    You mentioned that you hate it when he asks you to summarize his argument. You didn’t mention whether you both agree that you’re on the same page when he asks this question. Are you? In the same vein, I like the idea of telling him it comes across. But I would do that only after making sure that you both agree that you understood each other. Otherwise it would only prove his point that asking that question was a good idea.

    In your shoes, I may try to consider him a poor communicator rather than a jerk. I might suggest to his boss that John be assigned to a class to learn better communication skills.

    Reply ↓
    1. mreasy*

      There are ways to say “I’m not sure we’re on the same page” that aren’t “I demand you repeat this thing to me.” The most collaborative way to do it, in my experience, is “just making sure we’re all understood – we agree that the client is asking for 5 leaves and 6 petals, so that’s how we’ll be moving forward? If anyone is getting something else, let’s discuss now to avoid future confusion.” And then summarize the group’s agreed decision in a post meeting email.

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  39. Elbe*

    Alison’s suggestions are spot-on. I’m very familiar with people who have the same type of patterns, and both suggestions are great. If he is intentionally trying to be condescending, he will have to change tactics if he knows you are able to ask the same thing as him (repeating a point). And naming the behavior – in this case, mistaking disagreement for lack of understanding – is a good way to pull the conversation out of the repetitive loop that it can get in with someone like this.

    That said, the LW should be prepared for neither of these things to actually work. Efforts to improve communication only work when both people are willing, and when communication really is the root issue. It sounds like John just has some weird need to be right 100% of the time, and the LW can’t fix that for him. The LW will also want to look into what strategies can be used to make decisions when he’s not letting things progress. There needs to be a clear path to either a) pull rank on him or b) escalate to his manager.

    Reply ↓
  41. Abogado Avocado*

    OP, how condescending John sounds!

    OTOH, there is a technique where you can take the wind out of his sails. It’s called “looping” and we courtroom lawyers use it a lot with witnesses. When looping, you repeat back what the other person said in a fair way, such as “Your view is that the all flowers painted on a teapot must have seven petals. . .”. It helps to stop at this point to get an assent from the other person. Then, you go on and state what your position is (that is, the correct position), “In fact, the instructions from the Painting Manager are that all flowers painted on the teapot must have six petals. Isn’t that right?” And at that point it helps to stop and get assent from the other person.

    The psychology behind this is that the other person feels heard with regard to their position, but also must deal with the fact that their position is, ahem, incorrect. If the other person fights the correction, this is the time to bring in exhibits — that is, emails, any printed instructions, etc. — that support the correct position. “The Painting Manager’s email here specifically states that the teapot flowers must have six petals. You got this email?” (Yes.) “And the email specifies six petals, not seven.” (Yes.)

    Now, at this point, the other person either capitulates or claims, “The Painting Manager told me that I could paint seven petals.” And that’s the point you pull in the Painting Manager.

    You can loop through close-ended questions (yes/no answers) or through open-ended questions (any question with why or how), but if you really want to control John’s condescension, then you can ask close-ended questions as a means of keeping his mansplaining to a minimum. (“No, I only need to know yes or no at this moment, John.”)

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  42. Alex*

    Oh hey John, I want to make sure that you understand my point of you that you are a total a-hole. Can you repeat that point back to me? Thanks!

    Reply ↓
  43. HonorBox*

    “He will insist I don’t understand his argument, and then say some variation of, “Repeat back to me the point I was just making.”

    OP, you can tell John two things:
    1. I understand exactly what you’re saying John, but just because I understand doesn’t mean that I have to agree. And in this case, I disagree. End of story.
    2. If he asks you to repeat his point back, “John I’m not here to take a quiz. I’m here to do a job. And right now the job is to make sure our teapots have flowers with six petals.”

    And also escalate, escalate, escalate. That this behavior is happening with only women is a huge problem. And that John is appearing to act in managerial ways without being a manager, influencing projects, doing things that are different than prescribed by designers/management, is a bigtime issue.

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  44. Goldenrod*

    I love Alison’s suggestion to do this: “The next time he asks you to repeat back his point…say, “And now I’d like to ask you to repeat back the point I was making too, so we can ensure we’re both understanding each other.””

    I am a pretty low-key person who can get along with all types of people at work – but it would raise all my hackles if someone (anyone!) said this to me at work.

    It’s extremely condescending and rude! It sounds like you are trying very hard to communicate politely with him…but he is not extending the same courtesy to you…

    Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah, I was thinking along similar lines; instead of only repeating his words verbatim, saying something more like: “you’re insisting on seven petals, because you think that’s better than following a whole team directive, and you believe it so much you’re willing to die on this hill, which is also how I’m going to summarise this conversation when I repeat it to your manager.”

      Reply ↓
  46. Not Anish Kapoor*

    Yeah, this seems super misogynistic to me. He sounds like one of those guys who goes to couple’s therapy, then misuses the techniques he learns there to gaslight and manipulate his wife.

    Reply ↓
  47. Ashley*

    So this feels like a weirdly misguided communication technique, like someone told him to do this at one point when he felt he wasn’t being understood and he’s now co-opted it in a shitty way.

    I’d prob recommend going with a direct but gentle response. Summarizing at the start of the convo is a good idea but if he asks you to again, replying with a “I already did state your view at the beginning of this conversation and it hasn’t changed. Did something about your view change since we started?” It’s a fair statement that is accurate and gives him a chance to highlight if you did, in fact, miss something. And, if needed, you can follow up with clear statements about what the decided on method/practice is intended to do to reiterate why his stance won’t work. “The teapots need six petals because a, b, and c. Seven petals will not meet those needs.”

    Reply ↓
  48. Indolent Libertine*

    “As far as I can tell, the point you were making is that you’re a condescending ass who can’t take direction.”

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  49. Czech Mate*

    It sounds like OP *is* his manager. It also sounds like this is a pattern of behavior, rather than just a one-off tic John has. Given those two things, I’d say it’s time for OP to have a meeting with John where they say, “A significant part of your job is to work collaboratively with your colleagues. This means that you must speak to others with respect, must allow other managers to give their staff feedback, even if it is not what you would have done, and be willing to compromise on certain matters. It also means that you must speak respectfully to your colleagues. These are core requirements of the role.” Lay out exactly what needs to happen and if he continues to be combative, he needs to go.

    As other letter writers have mentioned on similar posts in the past, keep in mind what impact this probably has on John’s peers and those below him on the org chart. They shouldn’t have to put up with this.

    Reply ↓
    1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      No, OP says this: “John does not report to me, but there are scenarios in which I supervise aspects of John’s work and am in a position to give him feedback.”

      But everything you say is still good.

      Reply ↓
  50. K Smith*

    Hmmm, midway through the OP’s question I wondered to myself if there are gender dynamics in play here. An then of course two lines later there was the OP’s statement “he is a man and I am a woman, and he has done this with other female managers”.

    I’m sorry you (and women everywhere) have to deal with this, OP. I’m a big fan of Allison’s advice to ‘name what you are seeing’: ie, tell this dude (and/or his direct manager) that his demands are coming across as adversarial and are not collegial behavior. In my experience guys like him don’t like being called out for this type of behavior and he may react negatively. But I do think it is a reasonable/worthwhile thing for the OP to do, given that the OP has noticed him doing this to other female managers.

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  51. Workerbee*

    One of the things assholes choose to do when interacting with people is to phrase things so that you don’t think of or realize there is, in fact, the option to just NOT.

    Say “No,” refuse to engage further, physically leave the room, whatever you need to do to exit the asshole blathering up the space.

    (Yes, it’ll feel awkward at first. Yes, consider safety. Yes, consider larger repercussions. Just remember it IS an option to not engage.)

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  52. JPalmer*

    So at worst this is a redirect tactic for controlling conversations and shutting down ideas or speech from the opposition.

    There are cases where it is valid, but he clearly doesn’t have a good gauge on his own ignorance and when he should seek viewpoints from others.

    A valuable part of communication is understanding what the other party is saying before trying to bridge the gap in understanding. This is more about shutting down the course of giving him feedback, probably because he feels attacked. Making demands to this end strikes me as unacceptable, especially if it occurs even moderately more in cross-gender scenarios.
    It is likely he is making this demand because his understanding of gender power dynamics is messed up.

    Definitely check in with other’s who work with him regularly and then provide your feedback for his manager. It is likely there is a consistent pattern of this, which management should know about so they can make a correction plan or take administrative steps.

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  53. Megan C.*

    I’m extremely non-confrontational, but even thinking about someone saying this to me in the tone I imagine he’s using is enough to make me see red! You need to push back on this when he says it. “I understand your point – I just don’t agree with it.” And if you think it will help, say something to his manager. This guy is being a huge jerk.

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  54. JJ*

    As soon as I get a sense that I’m dealing with someone who asks aggressive, condescending or extremely nosy questions, I either flip the exact same question back at them without answering at my end, or else I ask them why the are asking the question.
    Sometimes they only asked the question because they want to have a turn to answer it from their perspective, and they don’t even notice I never replied. Sometimes simply asking them to justify their need to know that information is enough to make them talk themselves out of the conversation.
    In the case of someone like John, I would absolutely avoid directly meeting his demand because it is very condescending and aggressive. I don’t want to give them the satisfaction of thinking that conversational strategy is going to work on me, or is even effective with anyone.
    THEM: “Repeat back to me the point I was just making.” ME: “My hearing is fine. My point is (state your point). Not that I didn’t hear you.”

    Reply ↓
    1. Spooz*

      Yeah, absolutely. I would take Alison’s advice to flip the question but I would ask him to do it first.

      John: Repeat what I just said!
      LW: OK, sure. You repeat what I just said first, then I’ll go.

      and I agree that “Why are you asking?” WITHOUT replying to the question first is very very powerful.

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  55. thelettermegan*

    So I’ll caveat this with John is being a jerk and needs to stop.

    I’ve been John! But with genders reversed – and I never had the guts to actually ask the manager to repeat what I was saying.

    I think one of my big issues was that we were in a technical field, with the expectation that I would empower my colleagues who needed help. In school, we often learn that being able to put what she says in your own words is proof of understanding. But in a lot of technical fields, words and concepts usually have very specific meanings. Putting it in your own words can reinforce misunderstanding. I started to really lose trust in my coworker’s ability to take me seriously when I would try to explain something to them, and they would try to summarize it back to me in the way that felt correct to them, but was actually incorrect or reductive.

    Anyways, I would definitely let his manager know, but it might help to stop summarizing what he’s saying, and instead, yank out whatever documentation or teapot you have, zoom in on the flowers, and start asking extremely specific questions. “This is what we’re referring to as a petal, correct? And this is the flower?” Sometimes you have to ask these questions that may feel condescending, petty, silly or counterintuitive to building a consensus, but the problem might be that something that shouldn’t seem complicated is actually much more complicated, and John’s frustration is that people constantly blow off key details and leave him holding a bag of loose petals – – – OR John thought he was supposed to be painting roses when the client actually wanted tulips.

    When you get to the point where you’ve identified the issue, ask him where his misunderstanding comes from, or why the issue wasn’t flagged. Don’t let him take up your time without making him understand that his initial behavior (either directing peers with incorrect information, or failing to notify management of the problem in a timely manner) is a problem.

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  57. cat lover*

    this might be harsh but i feel like not only is this not okay, but it’s also not okay for you to let a subordinate at your workplace speak to a manager like this. it’s so out of line!

    Reply ↓
  58. Ellis Bell*

    So, I think before drafting any John-proof scripts, you need to ask yourself: do you need him to do the thing, or does he need to do the thing? Are you trying to persuade him to not get himself into trouble, or will you be the one in trouble for not getting John on side? Is there any way to just toss this onto John and his manager and let them figure out how to keep John gainfully employed (or not), or is this your burden? So the usefulness of the following scripts depends on your power levels and your ultimate goals here:
    1) I heard you; you said seven petals, but what did I say about why we aren’t doing that?
    2) I’m not going to repeat your words John, because even though what you said was very clear, I gave you a very simple instruction and you can either do it, or you can’t. Which is it?
    3) I’ve been nice about this up until now, but I’ve never misunderstood you before, so why are we constantly suggesting that I have?
    4) It sounds very argumentative when you ask me to simply repeat you word for word, and I’m sure that’s not what you’re going for. So, would you like to rephrase that?
    5) How about I just use my own words, and you use yours?
    6) I don’t need to do that, I heard you. But to sum up, your opinion is to not do the brief we’ve been given, so if you want to die on this hill, this is what that will look like…

    Reply ↓
    1. Daphne*

      Wow. All those scripts are guaranteed to escalate the interaction. I like the message, but dial back the attitude. That level of aggression is inappropriate from a leader.

      Reply ↓
      1. Unkempt Flatware*

        This wasn’t aggressive at all. This was assertive. Very assertive. It would also be okay to simply say, “never speak to me like that again”.

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  59. Josie*

    It never ceases to amaze me how obstructive, COUNTER-productive people hold on to their jobs. We have one where I work (his job could be done by anyone – it’s not like he has a specific skill set) and he is CATERED to left and right. We all think he has naked picture of someone or something… Someone I work with put it perfectly: He will argue with you for 15 minutes about why he won’t do something that would have taken him 5 minutes to do. Ugh feeling triggered by this letter lol sorry!

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  60. Molly*

    The sarcasm gene runs strong in my family. I think he asked me to repeat it back, I might look at him with great concern/compassion and say: “OMG! It just dawned on me that you might be having a problem remembering what you just said! I so sorry! Do you feel you need to speak to HR about an accomodation? I would be happy to work with you and HR on this.’

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  62. Not really a troll*

    The troll in me would be sooooo tempted to respond with “Oh, do you not remember what you just said? That’s worrisome!”

    Reply ↓
    1. Waltzing Matilda*

      Ha! I like that. The troll in me would be probably respond:

      John: Repeat what I just said.
      Troll: Repeat what I just said.

      Reply ↓
  63. CosmicKiwi72*

    It sounds like John needs a lesson in “disagree and commit”. I’d honestly phrase it that way to either him or his manager.

    While its still not my favorite someone who says “I still think you are wrong, but let’s do it your way and find out” is way better than someone who won’t let you move forward.

    I also love Alison’s suggestion of repeating back to him what you heard and having him repeat back what he heard. I think modeling that behavior in meetings where he’s grandstanding, even if you have to interrupt him to do so is good for the rest of the team to see.

    “John, let me summarize what I’ve heard you say so far… and I’ll also summarize ” It can drive home that you listen to everyone but filibustering isn’t going to ensure you get your way.

    When he continues to push its okay to interrupt him and say “was my summary incorrect?” or “what part of my summary was incorrect?” You can add “because I’m hearing you repeat points you’ve already made and I’ve already summarized.” Again, its okay to interrupt him if he’s filibustering, raising his voice, etc. Interrupting to enforce group norms is something leaders sometimes have to do.

    I do suspect this is one of those humans who doesn’t understand that you can understand him and disagree with him. While you can try explaining that to him, his understanding that isn’t actually important. You just need his behavior to change.

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  64. Zarniwoop*

    This is another case where someone writes in about a minor problem in a major mess. He’s giving incorrect instructions to coworkers. I think that’s a much bigger issue than an irritating conversational style.

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  65. Daphne*

    “Clearly you don’t understand my point, otherwise you would agree,”

    Speaking as a female in a male dominated field, this is exactly what he means. I like the script for calling that nonsense out.

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  66. McS*

    In the example you give, I’d go the direction of “John, you’re having the wrong conversation. It doesn’t matter if you’re right about the number of petals on that flower. It matters that it’s not your decision and it’s not important enough for you to be a jerk about it.” Generally, I might go the direction of noting that he says that a lot, asking him to explain why, and letting him know it tends to come across as “I want to see if you’re smart enough to understand me.” and of course he probably doesn’t mean that and is trying to see if he’s failing at communication, so he should preface the question with “I often undercommunicate and would like to find out what I am doing wrong. Could you help me out by telling me what I am actually saying so I can improve?”

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  67. WantonSeedStitch*

    “You have a pattern of implying that when I disagree with you, it’s because I don’t understand what you’re saying. Frankly, that’s condescending. I understand you and still disagree because XYZ. I’ll make a note of your disagreement, but we’re still moving forward with the decision I’ve made.”

    Reply ↓
  68. Raida*

    If that’s how these things usually go, may I suggest a pen and paper?

    Literally bullet points.

    Yours.
    His.

    If he says “repeat back my argument” then you point to the paper and state the bullet points “… and did you have something else to add to that John?”

    Once it’s written, once it’s clear, it’s clear. Then if he’s still trying to get you to repeat stuff you can state “Yes John that would be [bullet3], we’ve covered that, you said there was nothing additional. I’m talking about [bullet6]…”

    You might need to specifically call it out, too like “John I can see you’ve come back to [bullet2] seven times, (because you put a little mark each time to track it) what is it about [bullet2] that is getting in the way of us discussing [bullets 4-6]?”
    or
    “John, this is not a discussion about [bullets1-3]. I’ve noted those down, we can set up a time to talk about them if you’d like. We are discussing [bullet4]. That is the purpose of this meeting and we’re just gonna stay on track here.”

    Reply ↓

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