my coworker told me to stop flirting with a student employee

by Alison Green on October 1, 2024

I’m off for a few days, so here’s an older post from the archives. This was originally published in 2020.

A reader writes:

I am part of the HR department at my workplace, and we hired “Andre” a few months ago as a part of our student group. He’s only 18, but he’s been a hard worker and always takes initiative around the office. I was part of Andre’s interview panel, so I’ve always been in contact with him and friendly with him since we brought him on board.

For the past month, Andre has been working in my section to help process a backlog of paperwork caused by COVID-19, so he spends a lot of time in my office where the only working scanner is. We started with small talk but learned that we share a lot of hobbies.

A week ago, a cafe near our office opened back up (take-out only), and when I told Andre about it, he suggested we go there for break. I’ve had coffee with my other coworkers before. He offered to pay, and after we chatted at a park bench by the cafe, he offered a hand to help me up from the bench and held my upper arm until we’d left the park. Since then, we’ve felt more comfortable making physical contact, but it’s been nothing inappropriate. It’s usually just a poke or bump on the shoulder or brushing up against each other in the hall.

I bring this up because one of my coworkers, “Jane,” confided in me that she’s concerned about how Andre and I interact. She said that she saw us on that outing, and she confessed that she overheard a short conversation we had while Andre was replacing toner. Andre was jamming the cartridge in aggressively, so I said, “Damn, I hope you don’t treat your dates like that.” He had replied, “Only if they ask for it.” She has also heard Andre tell me on a separate occasion, “If only I could get a girl with legs like yours, I’d be in business.”

Jane thinks this could result in sexual harassment complaints, but that wouldn’t make any sense. We thought we were alone, and since we’ve been getting more connected at work, we’ve been talking in friendly innuendo like that. Andre has never shown any discomfort when we share jokes like these, especially when he initiates them, and we never do so in front of others to make others feel uncomfortable. Nobody’s complaining. Jane, however, thinks this is unbecoming of a 40something woman like myself and could look very bad for our company if our private interactions were made public.

Jane says they’re not as private as I think and everyone else can feel the “sexual tension” between us, and she said that people sometimes refer to us as “work spouses.” I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant. Jane also asked if my husband knows about Andre, but my husband doesn’t need to know about Andre since I’ve never cheated on him and never would.

Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings, and based on the questions above, she seems to believe it’s okay to ask about my private life because of this. Is there a tactful way I can explain to her that she shouldn’t try to police her coworkers’ social interactions, especially if they’re not meant to be public?

Whoa, no.

You need to stop flirting with Andre. Stop brushing against him in the hallway (!), stop trading sexually charged jokes and compliments, stop the whole thing.

You are in HR. He is an 18-year-old student employee. You cannot flirt with or trade sexual innuendo with a student employee.

Yes, this could be sexual harassment. It could be sexual harassment of Andre if he ever starts to feel uncomfortable or like his security in his job depends on continuing the flirtation (and just because someone seems comfortable with this kind of contact at first, that doesn’t mean they’ll continue to feel comfortable with it). It could also be a legal liability if others are forced to overhear obvious sexual remarks between the two of you (that toner comment? come on — I guarantee you that grossed out anyone who overheard).

And yes, potential harassment issues aside, this will absolutely affect the way others think of you. At a minimum, you’ll look like you have terrible judgment, and if this continues people will suspect you of more than that.

Doing this with any colleague would be inappropriate. Doing it with an 18-year-old is even more problematic. He’s on a whole different plane of maturity (and he’s not accountable in nearly the same way you are for knowing what is and isn’t acceptable at work).

Also, you’re in HR! I hope that means you’re doing benefits administration or comp analysis or similar — because if you do anything related to legal compliance or investigations or employee counseling, you’re torpedoing your credibility and trustworthiness in your job as well. You may have already forfeited your ability to be seen as fair or impartial if someone needs to report harassment or other inappropriate behavior.

If you do work in those areas of HR, your judgment here — and especially your response after a colleague pointed out the problems — is indicative of some serious deficiencies in your understanding of foundational concepts in your field, and I’d urge you to do some serious soul-searching about what’s required to make your behavior and judgment line up with what’s needed in that work. This isn’t “I occasionally have do some data entry for my job and I’m not great at it.” This is “I violate the rules I am charged with enforcing, don’t realize when I’m doing it, and may harm others who rely on me to keep their workspace safe and legal.” It’s soul-searching, “am I in the right field?” territory.

If you do that soul-searching and come out of it with an understanding of why all of this is a problem and a resolve to do better, you should be able to move forward (although you’ll need to do some reputation repair at work, as well as righting things with Andre). But you have to do that work.

Also … you didn’t write in asking for marriage advice, but the relevant question there isn’t whether your husband “needs” to know about Andre. It’s whether you’d be comfortable if he did.

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  1. Falling Diphthong*

    Jane thinks this could result in sexual harassment complaints, but that wouldn’t make any sense.
    All of the sense! All of the sexual harassment complaints!

    Jane says they’re not as private as I think.
    Everything in your letter underscores that Jane is right. Or she wouldn’t have anything to talk to you about, because she and everyone else in the office wouldn’t have noticed anything.

    This letter screams “So every day I would go into the copy room at 2:37, and then five minutes later Andre would join me, and we would shut the door, so there’s nothing for anybody to see or comment on.”

    1. Dom*

      The lack of self-reflection required to claim that ‘we never do so in front of others’ when a coworker has not only seen several incidents personally, but also mentions that others have seen enough to make comments as well!

      1. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

        Not to mention that the fact that they make an effort to not do this in front of colleagues clearly means something is up.

        1. Yadah*

          Honestly, I had a flirtatious relationship with a coworker (who I’m now married to!) and even at its peak flirty-ness we would have never said anything as raunchy as the LW and Andre in a work setting.
          And we were two, young single people in a small office almost exclusively made up of young single people who loved raunchy humour and didn’t have any sort of HR.

          My jaw hit the floor reading this letter

        2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Exactly. One comment on the original post suggested that the LW tell her boss and husband everything and the fact that she isn’t shows she knows this isn’t OK.

      2. SHEILA, the co-host*

        “I don’t know what they saw, but it couldn’t have been what they thought the saw because we don’t do it in front of others.” The denial/delusion is staggering.

      3. JB*

        Blind Freddy can see it’s not a platonic relationship.

        “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant.”

        It’s completely relevant, and seems to be the crux of the matter. Andre makes OP feel good, so she responds in a way that keeps this happening (changed the word because phrasing).

        OP can’t really use the “it’s my private life” defense when she’s drawing her professional life so much into this since a lot of it is interactions at work or during the work day. Andre’s judgement is also called into question, since he seems to be initiating some of the interactions.

        1. Medusa*

          I wouldn’t even call Andre’s judgment into question. He’s 18. It makes sense to me that he’s not fully aware of workplace dynamics, especially when it’s *HR* doing this. It is, concerning, however, that this might influence his thinking in the future unless OP drew a hard line and took responsibility.

          1. N C Kiddle*

            Yeah, my read would be that this is how he behaves around his friends and LW has given him the OK to do it at work too. He’s 18, he has no real way of knowing what’s appropriate, and LW is doing him a real disservice by not modelling professional behaviour for him.

    2. Spero*

      Also in general, the fact that OP made a distinction of ‘this behavior is OK in private but not for others to know about/in public’ and yet MISSED that having to make that distinction is a HUGE indicator it is blanket inappropriate?
      EVERYTHING at work is public. Any behavior that seems inappropriate for public is inappropriate for work.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Exactly this. If you have to hide stuff at work, that’s a strong sign you know it’s not cool.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      Jane thinks this could result in sexual harassment complaints, but that wouldn’t make any sense. We thought we were alone,

      This in itself shows the inherent contradiction. “How could somebody complain when we thought we were alone?” Well, clearly you weren’t and Jane overheard, so others might.

      And honestly, the fact that Andre never shows any discomfort doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Given that he sometimes initiates it, I think it is likely he is OK with it, at least at the moment, but I don’t think that can be taken for granted and I think it distinctly possible he wouldn’t feel able to display any discomfort if he did feel it given that the LW is much older than him, in a HR position in a place where he is interning and therefore in a position to have power over him and that he has reciprocated and I think many 18 year olds would feel, “well, I was OK with X so I can’t complain about Y now.”

      1. Serious Silly Putty*

        Exactly. I can imagine the letter from Andre:
        “Dear AAM- I got a student job helping in HR, and my boss liked it when I flirt with her. It’s a boring job and it helped pass the time, but now I’m in over my head. I now have a girlfriend, but I’m afraid if I ever mention her there could be backlash… which I couldn’t report because this is HR! What should I do?”
        Or worse, 30-yr-old Andre gets into a managerial role and starts flirting with young female subordinates and makes them feel horribly uncomfortable but it’s what he “grew up” with so he thinks it’s fine.

    4. Miette*

      Anyone else singing “Jane Says” by Jane’s Addiction right about now ;)

      Jane says I’m done with Andre now!
      It’s bordering on harassment!

    5. T'Cael Zaanidor Kilyle*

      In addition to ALL the sexual harassment red flags, this HR professional who ought to be positioning herself as a role model to students just entering the workforce is not doing Andre any favors by allowing him to think these are acceptable workplace interactions.

    1. KayDeeAye*

      I remember saying when this letter was first posted, that my reaction could be roughly summarized as “Aaaaauuuuugh! No, no, no, no, no, NO.”

      And that’s still my reaction. Wholly schlamoly, so much inappropriateness and ickiness.

      1. Lynn*

        I agree with every ‘no’ you typed, especially the last one. This sounds like sitcom levels of “not as funny as the writers think” inept and inappropriate flirting. This would be bad with any combination of superior/junior employee. But add in that it is a HR person and a barely legal teenager and you go straight to YIKES territory.

        I have to wonder if the OP ever came to an understanding of just how badly they were messing up, or if they blundered right into a harassment claim somewhere down the road (whether with Andre or someone else).

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Speaking of sitcoms, this doesn’t quite rise to the Ross-as-professor-dating-one-of-his-students level of “not as funny as the writers think,” but it’s pretty close. (Gawd, that Friends plot was so incredibly cringe…no wonder Ross was my least favorite Friend.)

          1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            It does if you realize she is having an emotional affair with Andre. Like the man who wrote in about his wife getting upset that he greets his female coworker with, “good morning, beautiful,” OP is have a full blown relationship with Andre. They just only hang out during the day. At night, she goes to her first family.
            Litmus test, flirty, friendly, funny Andre is assigned a group project and a female team member shows up at internship to have lunch with him to go over their project…which one of the three will freak out at the idea?

          2. Selina Luna*

            I disliked Friends enough at the time that I never really watched it, but THEY HAD THAT AS A PLOTLINE?! I always thought it was weird that the characters in the show were able to do a lot of things, but that’s true of any show. But it’s really, really cringe when they do things that in real life would result in being fired, even in the wild-west of the 1990s.

            1. justcommenting*

              Yeah, it’s a very…weird plotline. Everyone makes fun of Ross for it, but even when the other faculty find out, he’s not immediately fire for it, if I remember correctly (even though there’s even a joke about how he misinterpreted his employment rules where dating students was only “frowned upon” and it turning out to be an actual violation of policy). (Relatedly, there’s an early episode, single episode plot thank God, where Monica unknowingly sleeps with and dates a high school senior so @_@;)

            2. Jill Swinburne*

              Worse was the episode of Frasier where someone writes a book about his reminiscences of his relationship with his piano teacher as a teenager. I recently rewatched it for the first time since original airing, hands over my eyes, and was like ‘holy grooming, Batman!’ At least Elizabeth was over 18.

              2. DJ Abbott*

                This reminds me of the plot line in Riverdale with the music teacher. Such a complex and interesting show, her pedophilia weaves through some of the episodes besides the ones where it’s the main point.

        2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          “Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting ”
          This letter always made me think of how people got their understanding of office norms by watching sitcoms. Sitcoms written by people who either never spent a minute in one or who dramatized their memories. Like the grades school kids who think yelling out punchlines is how to act in school, that they are secretly in a Disney show, this woman thinks her office is The Office.
          They would ALL have been fired.

      2. Heidi*

        I’ve been reading the comments from the original post. I gather that there was something like a collective scream of horror that preceded the barrage of comments.

      3. Le Sigh*

        Yeah this is a joke I would make with my closest friend bc we both like to make really cringe, stupid jokes with each other. But she’s my bf of over a decade, not a coworker. And certainly not an 18 yo coworker.

      4. Clisby*

        I think my eyeballs fell out of my head at “Since then, we’ve felt more comfortable making physical contact, but it’s been nothing inappropriate. It’s usually just a poke or bump on the shoulder or brushing up against each other in the hall.”

        I picked them up and stuck them back in, but it only got worse.

        I remember the original letter, but I don’t recall whether there was any update.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          I thought from the headline that this was a reprint of a different letter (one where an office busybody was accusing a female student worker of being “too flirty” just for having normal interactions with a male student worker), so I was primed to think the coworker was overreacting.

          “More comfortable making physical contact” was where the LW lost any shred of deniability. Like, *maybe* a new-to-the-workplace guy might think buying a female coworker lunch was normal and she’d forgotten her purse? And maybe she’d had a knee replacement and needed assistance getting up?

          But “brushing up against each other in the hall” is behavior I expect from my cat, not a professional in HR!

          2. Clisby*

            I did, too, when the original was posted. Then it moved on to NO. REALLY NO. REALLY REALLY REALLY NO. STOP. NOW.

        2. KayDeeAye*

          I don’t think there was an update, but I’d be delighted to know that I’m wrong about that.

          1. Heffalump*

            If the update says, “I saw the error of my ways, and I shut it down,” that’s one thing. If it says, “I got fired, and I did nothing wrong,” that’s another.

            1. Princess Sparklepony*

              Unless this letter writer had the scales fall from her eyes, I would expect the follow up to be along the lines of I did nothing wrong.

              I think the response she got from Allison was not what she was hoping for. She was looking for validation, not a dose of reality.

            2. N C Kiddle*

              If LW got fired and learned nothing from it, that would be disappointing, but there would at least be the bright side that Andre isn’t having his idea of workplace norms warped

    2. NothingIsLittle*

      Not only is the OP flirting with a child less than half her age, she’s doing it in the worst, most embarrassing way possible. How can you not hear yourself and be horrified?!

      1. Seashell*

        I’m old enough that everyone under 30 seems like a child to me, but an 18 year is an adult who can vote or join the military.

        I think this sort of conversation would be inappropriate if the worker was 48 or 78 too.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          I completely agree that 18 y.o. coworkers should be treated as adults, but that’s usually the first job life stage. If you’re particularly senior to them (in role, but in experience too) you also have to be aware you’re teaching them how to behave in the workplace. These comments he is making should get the attention of HR… but not in that way. He’s not learning that; he’s learning that this is a perfectly okay way to joke in the workplace.

          1. Bumblebee*

            There’s an inherent power differential between university staff and students as well, which is why we don’t touch the students!

            1. justcommenting*

              Yeah, I work at a university in a non-faculty role where I interact with supervise student employees on a daily basis and while they are adults and the small talk conversations I can have with them are different than say, ones with a high school teenager, I’ve even said very explicitly to them that I think of them as children to me as a social boundary. My role is to treat their work in an adult manner (while knowing they are students first), not to be chummy with them as peers. Even if they’re in their 20s (and I’m only in my 30s), it’s just a line that I really shouldn’t ever cross.

              1. Ohthe90s*

                As someone who worked with student workers 18-22, if you’re over 30 and look at them and think anything other than “they’re babies!!!” (which of course you don’t say), I seriously question your judgment.

          2. NothingIsLittle*

            Your comment made me realize where I erred! Sorry, yes, for work purposes treat 18 year olds as adults who might not have all necessary information or context. For romantic purposes, aka the relationship op was cultivating, I thought it appropriate to highlight that the student worker is comparatively a child.

            1. I&I*

              Yes, this.

              If you’re a 40-something working with an 18-year-old, they are an adult.

              Not least for this reason: if you’re older you’re almost always senior to him at work, and if this is a healthy workplace your greater experience is recognised as is a power disparity balanced by a clear understanding of rights and responsibilities.

              If you’re a 40-something flirting with an 18-year-old, they are a BABY and you should stop it RIGHT NOW.

              A young man of 18 probably can’t grow a beard yet – he may not even be at his full height! Never mind emotional maturity, he’s still maturing physically. He is in no way able to meet you on equal ground and there are no checks and balances built in. All you’ve got is someone too young to know how much younger than you he is, and the grown-up in this situation needs to be an actual grown-up.

              1. JustaTech*

                There’s a reason that the convention of “half your age plus 7” exists. If you’re 40, that’s 27, not 18.

                Tangentially, the idea that people in 2020 (even if it was very late 2020) were casually brushing up against each other in the hallway, at a time when a ton of people were doing their best to keep that 6 foot distance, makes the flirting even more obvious!

              2. I Have RBF*

                Again, she’s a cougar, not a pedo. People have May December relationships All. The. Time.

                That’s not the problem.

                The problems are:
                * She’s HR, flirting in the workplace
                * She’s married, flirting and more in the workplace
                * She’s senior/superior in the workplace hierarchy, flirting in the worlkplace

                If the situation were turned around, and she was a he, and 25, and was flirting with a returnee to the workplace divorced former SAHM, it would still be wrong – not because of ages, but because of power imbalance and the fact that the HR person is married.

                1. I&I*

                  Nobody said she was a pedophile. And yes of course 18 is over the age of consent, and the workplace issues would matter even if they were the same age.

                  However, it’s relevant to her irresponsibility that as far as ‘May-December relationships’ go, 18 is barely February.

          3. Elizabeth West*

            Yep, it’s not doing him any favors either. Can you imagine him later at another workplace doing that and getting fired? Yeesh.

            I really wish we had an update to this one.

          4. Love me, love my cat*

            Plenty of 18 yr olds have been around the block more than once. This “kid” could know full well what he’s doing, and be laughing with his buddies about it. Or he could have a legitimate crush. I doubt he would see the problems this behavior could have on his career, but maybe he wouldn’t care. At 18, there’s always another job somewhere! Ha. What happens if this “relationship” falls apart, and LW has to deal with THAT every day at work? Or loses her job or husband over someone who was just having fun? Honestly, LW sounds a bit starved for attention. Maybe some introspection or even counseling is called for here.

            1. Humble Schoolmarm*

              Well, yes, but at 18 Andre’s past trips around the block have most likely been with peers. In a peer relationship, what’s been happening ranks somewhere between mildly cringe (the toner comments) to kind of sweet (the picnic). LW isn’t a peer, though and it’s happening in an office with HR, so it’s double plus not okay whether Andre’s aware of it or not. The onus is on the OP, who’s senior in both life experience and work position, to set a good example and explain why this is a no-go. Anything else is taking advantage of a person with a good number of blind spots about the working world.

            2. Irish Teacher.*

              Some have been around the block, some haven’t and the LW has no way of knowing which Andre is, so she needs to assume he may be completely inexperienced. And even experienced 18 year olds aren’t necessarily able to negotiate power differentials.

              Yeah, it’s possible Andre knows the LW fancies him and isn’t JUST joking around, is genuinely fine with that and feels completely free to shut her down if she overstep his boundaries at any point and is aware this is not how most people behave at work and hasn’t learnt any norms that will hurt him professionally, but…I would say it’s unlikely.

              In particular, I would say it would be a rare 18 year old intern who would know how to shut down behaviour that cross a line for them even after they had previously flirted with the person.

              And even if the odds were the other way, I’d say even if there was a 10% chance of this causing Andre to feel harassed or his thinking it’s just a joke OR it damaging his norms about workplaces, it would mean the LW was wrong.

              He is there as an intern. She is HR. She really needs to be ensuring absolute professionalism and trying to behave in a way that will benefit him, not just a way that might not harm him.

        2. NothingIsLittle*

          Sure, but less inappropriate. Your 48 or 78 year old coworker presumably has the life experience to understand and consent to your dynamic.

          Without getting too far from the topic, there’s a significant power differential that comes with that wide an age gap that I intended to highlight with that language. For the purposes of classifying someone as “viable romantic partner” and “waaaaaaay too young for me”, I think child is suitable shorthand. I didn’t intended to suggest it was illegal. (Only approaching 30 myself, which should highlight my point)

          1. a clockwork lemon*

            If LW was out at bars randomly picking up 18yos, it would be worth raising some eyebrows but fundamentally consenting adults can do what they want (including 18yos making stupid choices as consenting adults).

            The problem in this particular case isn’t the age gap, it’s the fact that LW is literally in an HR function and engaging in an inappropriate relationship with an intern at the office to the degree that her peers are uncomfortable witnessing it.

            1. Ellis Bell*

              It’s pretty difficult to groom someone in a bar though. Having a huge amount of power over someone at work, and unlimited access to them while they’re navigating being liked at work for the first time (as a student!) makes this romantically sketch as well as professionally.

            2. NothingIsLittle*

              The problem in this particular case isn’t only the age gap. I agree that an HR professional cultivating a flirty relationship with their subordinate is heinous. However, I maintain that to do so with someone so much younger makes the situation wildly worse. The OP has significantly more power than the intern both as his boss and as someone twice his age, the latter of which is made more significant by the former.

          2. C*

            The problem isn’t just the age gap, it’s the age gap + the younger party is a very new adult.

            That same age gap if the younger party was 40 is just no big deal.

            1. Humble Schoolmarm*

              Yeah, if the younger party was 40, I would feel reasonably safe in assuming that they had the life experience to shut older person down if that’s what they wanted (HR still gives it a sketchy power imbalance, though).

        3. MigraineMonth*

          He’s old enough to vote, yes, but not to smoke or drink (at least in the US). Even legally, we acknowledge that he is a *young* adult, whose brain isn’t fully developed and who is prone to risky behaviors. (I would argue that’s *why* we let 17-year-olds join the army.)

          Socially, we can go further and disapprove of significantly older people in romantic/sexual relationships with them, just as we can disapprove of managers who date subordinates or those who keep their spouses completely financially dependent.

      2. I Have RBF*

        She’s a cougar, not a pedo. The young man is over the age of consent.

        The issue is that the person is subordinate to her in the office hierarchy.

    3. Anita Brayke*

      Just READING the toner comment had me WAY past grossed out and at least all the way to completely horrified! I can’t believe anyone thinks this situation is okay!

    1. I guess my entire company was the real work wife the whole time.*

      It’s the “brushing against each other in the hall” that floored me the most. I can see platonic poking (obviously it’s dependent on what it’s like, but it’s plausible at least), but hallway brushing? No. It’s hard to picture an honestly platonic version of that.

      1. SarahKay*

        For me it was “held my upper arm until we’d left the park”. I mean, seriously, WTF?!? That is nowhere near as platonic as the writer thinks; the only reason I can think of for any co-worker (or even a close friend) to do that to me would be if I was feeling unwell and moving woozily or looking unsteady on my feet.
        All the YIKES!

        1. Memyself*

          And he offered to pay – an intern! – for his – in rank if nothing else – superior, and SHE LET HIM.

        2. CJ Craig*

          The more I read it the less I think the writer wants the relationship to be platonic, she just hasn’t admitted that to herself yet.

        3. Carol the happy*

          Or DRUNK? I mean, this level of cluelessness speaks to chemical disruption of executive function- which is what a work crush really is.
          Andre is 18, which means that his own executive function won’t be matured until at least a few more years have passed- at which time he may look back at this “Tea and Sympathy/ Mrs. Robinson” phase, and be shocked at how you didn’t shut it down.

          Don’t “flirt” at work. It sends a disturbing message, it totally disrespects spouse/partner, and damages your relationship, and it can cause confusion. It blurs lines that should be, not drawn in the sand, but poured in concrete and visible from outer space.

          Especially when you’re in HR.

          18 may be legal, but I would question your judgement in every aspect of HR after your letter. Especially when you were so dismissive of your more rational colleague!

          (But my love of the occasional horror movie or disaster flick wants an update!)

          1. Paint N Drip*

            I genuinely think you’re correct that ‘Andre’ will look back at this at 30 and have some…. feelings

          2. Humble Schoolmarm*

            This is one of those letters that I doubt will ever get an update because either
            a) the loud and horrified shrieking of the comment section and Alison’s No! No! Absolutely no! answer just reinforced to LW that no one understands how this is just an innocent flirtation and oops! Andre! You’ve got some lipstick on your collar!
            b) It (or the subsequent harassment complaint) did knock some sense into them and they are too thoroughly mortified to come back.
            Actually, what I want is an update from Andre!

          3. Sleve*

            After all the changes in early childhood, human brains significantly change two more times – once at around 12 and once at around 24. That’s right, you haven’t reached your final form until 25. 18 is legal, but it’s not ethical.

            Behavioral control requires a great involvement of cognitive and executive functions. These functions are localized in the prefrontal cortex, which matures independent of puberty and continues to evolve up until 24 years of age.

            Arain M, Haque M, Johal L, Mathur P, Nel W, Rais A, Sandhu R, Sharma S. Maturation of the adolescent brain. Neuropsychiatr Dis Treat. 2013;9:449-61. doi: 10.2147/NDT.S39776. Epub 2013 Apr 3. PMID: 23579318; PMCID: PMC3621648.

        4. Angora998*

          The justifications that she comes up with are going to get her fired. I wish we had a follow up to this; but if they terminated her we’ll never hear. All it takes is for one coworker or student employee to complain.

      2. Evan Þ*

        The only platonic version of hallway brushing I can think of is “we’re trying to pass each other, and our hallways are too narrow.”

    2. Thegs*

      I genuinely can’t remember ever being touched by a coworker, except handshakes and accidental touches that come with the territory of the work being done (e.g. touching shoulders when we lift a server into a rack).

      1. JustaTech*

        Outside of things like first aid training, even working in close quarters I generally avoid touching my coworkers.
        Once I did have a coworker playfully poke me, and honestly it was very annoying/upsetting, mostly because it was pre-vaccine COVID times and yo, some space please, but mostly because we were in the lab processing blood and my coworker poked me with her gloved finger. It was a clean glove, but still! Lab rules say “no touching”!

  4. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    I take it we haven’t got an update on this one?

    Would love to know what OP ultimately decided to do.

    Because well, talking about shared interests – okay. Going for coffee or even lunch – okay.
    But comfortable with physically touching — yeah, you’ve entered forbidden territory.

    HR is friendly not friends with employees. I hope OP really internalized this concept going forward.

    1. MsM*

      I’d love to think OP did some of the recommended soul-searching, too, but I strongly suspect they just went “nah, I’ve got it under control,” and didn’t want to face the “I told you so”s when the situation inevitably blew up.

      1. ferrina*

        Yeah, I suspect this blew up. Between the 40-something HR hitting on the 18yo in a way that “my husband doesn’t need to know” but it sounds like the whole office knows….there is no way this ended well.

        1. Van Wilder*

          100%. She was too far into this to listen to reason. I remember commenters at the time saying she also wrote in to another advice blog about this. It was more like she wanted to celebrate her new relationship than actually get advice.

          1. Boof*

            My guess is somewhere there was a tiny voice saying “hmm, maybe this isn’t quite right” and she wanted the internet’s blessing to carry on. But I also suspect she was just going to go on ignoring / dismissing any and all red flags and sirens until literally everything burns down.

          2. Beebis*

            Some letters feel like they’re asking for permission to keep doing what they’re doing because they want their behavior validated more than asking for advice because they genuinely believe they have a problem to solve. This one felt like a permission letter.

        2. Momma Bear*

          My guess is that Jane reported it elsewhere or someone else did since I doubt OP heeded any of Jane’s warnings. I agree with you that this was not likely to end well.

          Sounds like OP was enjoying the attention of a young(er) man and didn’t care what it did to her career or marriage.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      No update. In the comments on the original post, some commenters found that she also asked this question on Reddit. The comments on Reddit were equally “you’re in the wrong, stop doing this,” so she deleted the post and her account on Reddit.

      I would also be interested in an update if the OP were willing to write back in.

          1. Eldritch Office Worker*

            Oh I’m not. This is, unfortunately, perfectly plausible and well within the realm of things I’ve seen as HR.

      2. Paint N Drip*

        Something about a “40-something” HR professional getting herself into this situation then posting on REDDIT about it clarifies where her head was at. I hope she didn’t blow up her life over a cute teenager at the copy machine (cringe)

    3. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      The part that struck me about the coffee that no one’s mentioned yet is that in no world should the student employee be treating the person they’re working for. Even if it’s just a couple of dollars, either you both pay for your own or the boss treats. Letting Andre pay makes it even more date-like.

      1. mango chiffon*

        Yes!! I got to that part and paused to go “no!! the student worker shouldn’t be paying for your coffee” and then it got worse

      3. Everything Bagel*

        Yeah and then she needed help off the park bench and he held her arm as they walked. What the hell was this person thinking? This whole narrative seems like something that I would see as an example in an HR sexual harassment training video. I hope Alison’s response gave OP a sharp dose of reality and she changed her behavior.

        1. Sunflower*

          Oh my yes. It reminds me of a yearly test my company makes us do about harassment. I make fun of it because it’s just common sense, but letters like this make me realize there *are* people who need it spelled out in detail and get tested.

      5. Jessica Ganschen*

        Agreed. At my previous job, we had an intern for a few months. He was a non-traditional student, previously had a different career, and wasn’t actually much younger than me. And yet, because he was the intern, and I was his supervisor with a full-time position, I was the one who paid for lunch on his first day! Because that’s the professional way to do it.

      6. ecnaseener*

        YES. That’s the part where the alarm bells should have started going off. Either the poor kid had no clue he shouldn’t have to pay for someone who has power over him at work and almost certainly makes much more money than him, or he did know that but felt obligated to offer with the expectation LW would refuse, or he thought this was a date. Bad all around!!

      7. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, from the title I actually thought this was going to be one of those “office gossip is convinced any collegial relationship between a man and a woman is inappropriate and sexual” letters, and then Andre paid for the coffee, and I said, “Wait, what?”

        It was all (rapidly!) downhill from there.

      8. metadata minion*

        Yes! At most I could see a student buying their boss a coffee as a thank-you for some sort of significant mentoring or something like that, and even there a card would probably be more appropriate.

        1. All het up about it*

          Maaaybe I could see a student grabbing a coffee for someone if they were getting their own, but I’m just thinking as a 40 something old supervisor how super uncomfortable that would make me.

          But I agree – this is the first thing that made me go Wut? And then this part Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant. It’s totally relevant!! How can you think it’s not relevant?!?

          Good gravy. I missed this one the first time around and the mind boggles!

          1. Craig*

            I did that all the time but then it was free tea/coffee fron the office kitchen and sometimes it was get everyone a cuppa.

            1. Craig*

              or if it was cappuccino/lattes from the local coffee place I was sent out with the expense card and the orders.

              1. metadata minion*

                Yeah, in that case getting coffee is part of your job, just like you might buy other things for the office (though usually not as a student employee).

      9. Observer*

        The part that struck me about the coffee that no one’s mentioned yet is that in no world should the student employee be treating the person they’re working for

        A number of people did mention it last time, but everything else was SOOOO crazy that it kind of faded into the background.

        It’s pretty telling that something that something that could get someone fired in a lot of functional workplaces is not close to the worst thing about the letter.

      10. Seamyst*

        My university’s employee handbook even states that when two or more people are getting lunch, coffee, etc., the most senior of the group is required to pay!

    4. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      “Would love to know what OP ultimately decided to do.”

      My money is on “get her freak on with a much younger co-worker.”

        1. I guess my entire company was the real work wife the whole time.*

          or rather, wonder HOW it blew up when it had such an obviously innocent and drama-free beginning! :D

    5. silly little public health worker*

      i am SO CURIOUS what happened to this letter writer, this letter lives rent free in my head

    6. Apples and Oranges*

      Everything about this letter is so wrong that I feel like it has to be a joke. Are there really people with this much lack of self-awareness?

    7. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Otherwise, a decent company is going to fire her. If Jane was willing to step in and tell the LW that none of this is OK, it’s not a stretch to imagine her going up the chain of command with her (super legitimate!) concerns. This is a bananasuit with special order banana loafers.

    8. Agile Phalanges*

      Yeah, this was just a continuous downward slide for me.

      Spending time alone in an office–well, yeah, that’s what colleagues sometimes do. Hope no one is giving you trouble about that.

      Small talk, shared hobbies–great, gotta pass the time somehow when you’re doing mundane tasks like that.

      Cafe–why did you let him pay if he’s such a junior employee, but okay. My (opposite-gender) boss and I traditionally get lunch every quarter after the SEC reports are filed, and we go *gasp* alone, and *gasp* in a car together, and no rumors have surfaced that I know of.

      Park bench–oh, no. Fine for him to help you up, depending on the extent of the physical touching, but WHY do you remember exactly where he touched you and for exactly how long? If a platonic co-worker helped me up like this, the extent of my memory if it would be “X helped me up when my legs fell asleep after sitting weirdly,” not the exact places his lingering fingers touched and for how long. Ew.

      Poking, shoulder bumping, and “brushing up against each other in the hall”???? EEEeeeeeeeew! That seems like they were dry-humping in the public spaces of the office and just totally grosses me out.

      The rest of the letter only gets worse–OP claiming no one would know, but clearly multiple people do, etc. I hope this was a creative writing exercise and not a real situation, because if it’s real, I feel bad for Andre as well as all the people exposed to OP’s behavior.

      1. Observer*

        Cafe–why did you let him pay if he’s such a junior employee, but okay.

        No, not ok. Not at all. Not in the least bit.

        The only reason it didn’t get the full treatment it should have is because of how *BAD* the rest is. But really, this is enough to show that the LW is a major, major problem.

        1. Humble Schoolmarm*

          I see what you’re saying. I guess for me, the paying question was the last spot where some gentle side coaching about workplace etiquette was enough. After that it’s all sirens wailing as the nopetopus rides through town.

  5. CubeFarmer*

    Wow, someone in HR sexually harassing someone! That is wrong, wrong, wrong on so many levels.

    This is one of those “the call is coming from inside the house” moments.

    2. Decima Dewey*

      Someone who’s in HR ought to realize that every coworker who’s been an unwilling witness to the behavior could file a sexual harassment complaint.

    3. Nominal Mous*

      I’m convinced that a not insignificant percentage of people go into HR as a form of power and dominance over others that cannot be questioned or reported because…who you gonna call? in a prior role, the entire HR department was staffed with bullies, bc the ED is one and he has some type of raging personality disorder. Really scammy, sideways, top notch, accomplished gaslighter, sexist, and bigot.

      I endured 8 months of insanity. High turnover because he hires incompetent people exactly like himself, who no nothing about appropriate laws or regulations, nor do they care, and all think they are invincible until it becomes so egregious (shredding mail, not paying invoices, seriously messing up people retirement, no protocols with PII, embezzlement) that he sacrifices them. They were never anything to him but human shields for the dysfunction he has wrought.

      I read this website because Alison is different that ANY other HR mangers I have ever interacted with. The rest all appear to have entered the field so they could break every single rule with impunity because they are the law of the land.

      This letter is a beautiful example of the type of complete delusion my former org is experiencing top down. 5 years and counting (I still have friends there).

      Prior to this? I would have thought this letter had to be made up as a joke.

  6. Czhorat*

    Oh my.

    There are no words here – even if it’s one hundred percent consensual and even if we pretend there’s no power imbalance it’s still highly inappropriate workplace behavior.

    And if the answer to “does your husband know?” is “he doesn’t have to” then you’re clearly cheating, even if it isn’t intercourse. Any romantic or sexual contact that your spouse wouldn’t be OK with is infidelity; even if it isn’t to the same degree as sexual intercourse it’s still a betrayal.

    It’s clear that if Jane saw what’s going on OP isn’t as discreet as she thinks she is, and Jane’s concerns are reasonable. Even though I’m sure it’s easy to get caught up in the rush of feeling desired I hope OP takes this as a wakeup call and steps back to a more professional relationship.

    1. FYI*

      ” … we never do so in front of others to make others feel uncomfortable. Nobody’s complaining.”

      JANE heard you. JANE is uncomfortable. JANE is complaining (to you). Sheesh.

      3. daffodil*

        this is what got me too. “nobody’s complaining”…. except the person who you literally just told us overheard you and is complaining. Truly wild.

      4. Commenter 505*

        And JANE was probably nominated by other co-workers who were cringing so hard they physically couldn’t bring themselves to speak to OP.

        1. ferrina*

          YUP. For every one person who complains, there’s almost always more that want to complain but don’t feel comfortable speaking up.

      5. Star Trek Nutcase*

        It always surprised me the coworkers who didn’t recognize that office affairs aren’t invisible to others. Those same coworkers would talk about others’ affairs yet believe their own was the exception and unseen. (And affair doesn’t have to have progressed to physicality, and “flirting” has degrees but any at work is just wrong.)

    2. lyonite*

      Also, if you’re spending this much time with someone at work and not mentioning him to your husband, that has to be intentional. My husband hears about the things I talk about with coworkers, because they’re the people I see all day. So of course he’s going to hear about Rachel’s house hunt, and the time Gunther got attacked by a bird–not because I have to tell him, but because it’s just normal to talk about these things. Anyway, I hope the OP took this advice to heart, but I suspect we aren’t going to ever get an update.

    3. allathian*

      Yes, this.

      Jane clearly felt uncomfortable. This is a clear case of sexual harassment, even if the LW doesn’t think so. Jane clearly does, and that’s sufficient.

  7. Keyboard Cowboy*

    Alison really is pulling out the best of the ages for this (well-deserved) break. I’ve got a little bet with myself about which one the grand finale will be, and I’m torn between the spicy food thief and the coworker’s “master”.

    1. Juicebox Hero*

      I’m betting on “I wouldn’t let my best employee go to her own graduation, so she quit on me” as the grand finale.

        1. WhoAmI*

          The leap day birthday randomly pops into my head from time to time and I get frustated all over again.

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Yeah, I’m sorry that the reason for her break is a sad one, but it’s nice of her to think of us during this difficult time.

      1. The Not-An-Underpants Gnome*

        Part of me hopes Duck Club because:

        1) I have no recollection of that one.

        and

        2) Cheap-Ass Rolls feels like it should be an annual holiday treat, like the Messed Up Christmas Party.

        1. Ally McBeal*

          Oh, you MUST read Duck Club! It’s the story I always mention when sharing AAM with others – “you get a lot of nuanced advice, the commentariat is great, and you also occasionally get some absolutely fantastic rubber-necking with stories like Duck Club [briefly explains Duck Club].”

          Original: https://www.askamanager.org/2015/04/i-walked-in-on-employees-having-sex-and-i-think-there-might-be-a-sex-club-in-my-office.html

          Update: https://www.askamanager.org/2015/06/update-i-walked-in-on-employees-having-sex-and-i-think-theres-a-sex-club-in-my-office.html

          1. Carol the happy*

            Thank you for saving me the time- I tend to go down the “Cringey Fringe” rabbit hole,when looking for my favorites.

          2. TeaCoziesRUs*

            Man… I hope we get an update on this one eventually. It’s been a decade! Did the big boss ever admit to being part of the club? Did LW ever replace that couch? How many babies were made with all the quacking going on?? Did one of the drakes find the hen of his dreams???

            *sigh* I need the sequel to this story… my popcorn bowl is full.

    6. Captain Swan*

      Intern dress code petition. it’s the one that put this blog on the map because it went viral.

      1. Humble Schoolmarm*

        That’s my vote, because it starts in some fairly reasonable places (why do offices need dress codes? how do we push back as a group on onerous things that are more for show than anything else?) and then takes a hard left to No! Not like that!!!!

    7. Cupcake*

      The manager that said her employee was not deferential enough to Payroll when she was not paid. . . twice.

      1. I take tea*

        Yes, and that she was “getting too big for her britches”. That actually made me gasp.

      2. Paint N Drip*

        omg that one is WILD, what year did OP think it was?? the employee was actually so nice and understanding about something that they did NOT have to be nice about, OP was worried about the employee’s attitude and somehow not the legal obligation to pay people for their work

    8. Gytha Ogden*

      We need…Michelle. The chameleonic life form Michelle who staged the flounce to end all flounces.

      Please.

        1. Humble Schoolmarm*

          I don’t have the link, but Michelle would go out at lunch and come back with a dramatically different look (like completely different hair cut, clothes and hair colour). There was fervent debate over whether this was a problem or part of life’s rich tapestry (and whether Michelle was, in fact, a spy).

    9. Media Monkey*

      nooo, i ghosted my girlfriend and she’s my new boss, or the brewery runs boss. just because the updates were so satisfying!

  8. Dust Bunny*

    OMG, this disaster again!

    I both do and really do not wish we’d gotten an update on this one.

    1. ferrina*

      It would read like the LW who does not make mistakes.
      “I did this normal and innocent thing, and everything blew up and it’s not my fault!”

  9. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    SO much no.

    Also, leaving everything else aside, you are working with an intern/student worker.

    Part of your job is to teach them appropriate workplace behavior. It is your job to shut down this kind of behavior, not encourage it. The kindest thing you can do for Andre is to draw a firm boundary and apologize for not enforcing it sooner.

    1. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

      Yup. It makes me wonder what lessons Andre took from this job about professional relationships and potentially brought to his next job. I know when I was a student worker I learned stuff from… not the most functional of workplaces, which caused issues in my future job search. Nothing on this level, though, and thankfully I was able to correct many of them in my first job out of college and the rest through reading AAM.

      1. Star Trek Nutcase*

        I have always considered myself extremely lucky that my first job emphasized work ethics with a boss who would never tolerate any bad behavior. It definitely set my standards for what I should or shouldn’t accept at work. (This was before established training for sexual harassment or such. I remember being surprised that such trainings were even needed (yes I was also naive).) Over the years in other jobs, I was asked how I was comfortable pushing back and I credit it to knowing what a job “should” be & knowing to learn my rights.

      2. moo deng*

        Yeah, I was thinking that as well. Like the least harmful outcome here is that Andre goes on to have inappropriate norms at his next job and ends up as someone whose coworkers write to AAM about him. The options get worse from there. Eesh!

    2. Typity*

      Yes. LW is giving Andre a very skewed impression of workplace norms. If he comes to believe that flirting (and sexual innuendo!) is a way to ingratiate himself with his older female co-workers, he’s going to have a rough time in future jobs. Most women will not be so charmed as LW was.

      I guess I can see how someone might be pleased or flattered by the attention of a much younger co-worker. But that is a time to get a grip on oneself and make all interaction scrupulously professional until the crush wears itself out. That LW was defending it was not a good sign for how this was going to play out.

    3. The Original K.*

      Yeah, Andre is going to get himself fired and/or sued if he brings this behavior into other workplaces.

      1. Czhorat*

        I just hope that wherever he goes next has a contract to service the copy machine. I don’t want to think about him changing toner cartridges ever again

        2. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

          Right? I mean, everything else aside, that’s really bad for the copier!

      2. Observer*

        Andre is going to get himself fired and/or sued if he brings this behavior into other workplaces.

        And he probably will do that, unless the LW gets fired before he leaves that place. Because he’s being really imprinted with *terrible* ideas of how to behave in an office.

        Maybe he won’t if at least someone pulls him aside and expresses concern over the LW’s behavior.

    4. ferrina*

      Now I’m really hoping that someday Andre finds this and gives us an update from his perspective.

      1. House On The Rock*

        Given the LW’s extremely skewed view of what is “normal”, I wonder if Andre was as willing a participant in this as she thought. I really hope he got out of all this unscathed, but with the age and power disparity it’s easy to see a young person not knowing how to navigate this mess and going along until things got truly out of control.

        1. Observer*

          Given the LW’s extremely skewed view of what is “normal”, I wonder if Andre was as willing a participant in this as she thought

          Yes. Totally this. Because she not only has a totally skewed idea of “normal” she’s also either delusional or dishonest about some other aspects of the whole mess.

    5. Sparkles McFadden*

      “Dear AAM…I just got fired from my first post-college job and I don’t know what I did wrong…”

    6. Clisby*

      Yes, I remember the original letter and at least one commenter suggested that Andre was really the manipulator and was going after her.

      A more sensible commenter grabbed the telescope, adjusted the viewfinder, and said something like: “It doesn’t matter who started it or who’s manipulating whom. Part of the reason for an internship is to learn about workplace norms, and you’re teaching him that this is OK.”

      1. Thankfully no longer a manager*

        LW used a kaleidoscope- can look like a telescope but the view is wild and unpredictable.

  10. Anandatic*

    I’m pretty shocked that LW could describe these interactions and still think they were appropriate or acceptable to do at work, especially with an 18-year-old. It definitely raises red flags about her judgement to an outside perspective. Please do some reflection before you wind up crossing an even more egregious line.

      1. allathian*

        Indeed. I wholeheartedly agree that this LW should get out of HR, or if not, to at least only handle things like benefits, not employee complaints.

  11. Lady CFO*

    HOW did I miss this originally??
    The utter lack of professional awareness. Yowza.

    So wish there was an update.

  12. So I says to Mabel I says*

    Oof, this was a really ride.

    I also raised an eyebrow at the husband answer. The colleague was probably trying to say “do you relate these conversations to your husband? Would you engage with Andre the same way if he was?”

    Because that’s a pretty big clue as to whether your behaviour is appropriate.

    In fact, it’s quite a good smell test. Don’t engage in conversations with coworkers that you wouldn’t tell your spouse about, or have if your spouse was right there. (Obviously there are unrelated hypothetical examples where this rule wouldn’t apply, but I’m talking about the flirting context.)

    1. So I says to Mabel I says*

      Oh dear so many typos!

      Oof, this was a real ride.

      I also raised an eyebrow at the husband answer. The colleague was probably trying to say “do you relay these conversations to your husband? Word for word? Would you engage with Andre the same way if he was right there in the room? If not, why not?”

      Because that’s a pretty big clue as to whether your behaviour is appropriate.

      In fact, it’s quite a good smell test. Don’t engage in conversations with coworkers that you wouldn’t tell your spouse about, or have if your spouse was right there. (Obviously there are unrelated hypothetical examples where this rule wouldn’t apply, but I’m talking about the flirting context.)

      1. Employee of the Bearimy*

        I think I made a similar comment on the original post, but I have a “work spouse” and he and I are very close and very informal with each other. But I have NEVER said or done anything with him that I wouldn’t repeat to my own spouse, who knows all about our working relationship. (Also, we’re the same age and peers, so there’s that.) The examples given here are WAY over the line.

  13. Jamboree*

    Holy moly. No. One thing Allison didn’t say (probably bc it shouldn’t NEEEED to be said is that even if he looks comfortable with the flirting he may well not be. And plus HR’s role in this relationship is to treat and model *appropriate* behavior.

    This letter is wild. The end.

    1. pally*

      Exactly! How does one know for sure -without asking- that someone is comfortable with the conversation-when it turns inappropriate? Do we have a mind reader here? Sometimes folks don’t object because they are at work and don’t want to make waves. Guilty of that myself. I just put on a neutral face and go about my day (I need to keep this job).

      Given the power disparity, I’m sure Andre keeps the objections to himself.

  14. Baela Targaryen*

    Your coworker is correct — you are being inappropriate with Andre, and you need to stop.

  15. Commenter 505*

    I worked with law students for many years. Literally rule #1 was DON’T TOUCH THE STUDENTS.

      2. Coalea*

        I attended a management training earlier this year where they had co-opted the 5 “love languages” to teach us about different ways our employees might prefer to receive recognition and appreciation. I was shocked that “physical touch” was on the list and could not imagine a situation in which it would ever be appropriate. “Hey, Fergus, great job on that PowerPoint! Would you like a back rub?” Ew.

        1. Honoria Lucasta*

          I guess, like, a handshake or a brief pat on the shoulder could theoretically be work-appropriate ways to use physical contact to demonstrate appreciation?

          2. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

            Tangential rant: My company’s anti-harassment training for years quizzed us on whether we could assume a random coworker would welcome a half-hug after finishing a big project, and the correct answer was yes.

            I had to push back on that. Sure, it’s the kind of thing that could be appropriate if handled correctly, but you can’t just assume everyone welcomes physical touch of any sort! There are SO many reasons someone might not.

            At any rate, my company’s HR seems to think that the language of love for work well done is touch.

    2. JB*

      When I started a new job about ten years ago my manager was emphatic about consent for physical contact, even if it was a tap on the shoulder.

    1. Guacamole Bob*

      Same. For the first 2.5 paragraphs or so I was all set for the letter to be about someone trying to stir up office drama by claiming that they were flirting when they were just talking about their shared favorite tv show or sports team.

      And then I kept reading. I’m really glad OP put in some example comments so that we wouldn’t have to debate whether this was over the line or not, because those examples make it crystal clear!

    2. Jennifer Strange*

      Yeah, I remember when this letter was first posted, my initial thought at the headline was that the co-worker was one of those “You’re members of the opposite sex, so any interaction is flirting!” types. Nope. That is not the case at all.

      1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

        Yeah, from the title I thought this might be a re-run of the letter from a (I think) student worker in a university who was conversationally friendly with a grad student co-worker and their mutual (older) colleague was all freaked out about the impropriety of it all. But nope!

        1. Hlao-roo*

          Good memory on the other letter, I just read it and you got all the major plot points. The title was “my coworker keeps criticizing the way I talk to male colleagues” from January 23, 2018 (and there was an update where it turns out the mutual older colleague was the problem in that situation).

  17. FYI*

    Honestly, the first flag for me was letting an 18-year-old student buy your coffee when you’re a 40-something professional. Then it got flaggier and flaggier from there.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      This is a good embodiment of “What does it mean to say something is ‘red-flaggy’?”

  18. Juicebox Hero*

    I kind of love letters like this, where the tone is, “I’m right, aren’t I? Everyone else is wrong for not understanding, right? Just tell I’m right and they’re wrong so I can rub it in their faces.” And then the consensus from Alison and all the commenters is “not just no, but oh sweet hip-hopping honeycomb HELL no. Squared.”

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      Yeah, “somebody complained my behaviour was inappropriate and I don’t see what it matters because nobody saw…well, she did, but that doesn’t count because I thought we were alone. How do I tactfully tell her she’s wrong and that it’s perfectly common and normal for senior employees in their 40s to flirt with 18 year old interns?”

      1. NothingIsLittle*

        Ah yes, flirting with a child less than half your age, perfectly normal behavior for HR. This is two parts horrifying, one part hilarious.

        I just don’t understand how these types of posters can be deluded enough to expect a different response! (Looking at you, too, “I didn’t let my best employee go to her own college graduation and want to tell her that quitting in response was childish.”)

        1. allathian*

          Young adult, please. Sure, 18 year olds are rarely fully-fledged adults, but neither are they children.

    2. couldhavebeenanemail*

      Yessss. So good. This letter is in my Top 10 of those I wish we’d had an update on!

    3. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      Capt. Awkward phrases it as “Who’s right, and why is it me?” which I utterly love.

  19. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

    This is one of those letters that makes me wonder if it was really sent by someone else because the lack of self awareness is stunning. Because “we’re not flirting” and “Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years” are not thoughts that can co-exist in a rational mind.

    See also her idea that Jane is asking about her private life when Jane has solely discussed behaviors in the office with her.

    1. Juicebox Hero*

      Last time I was at CVS, someone in line was talking loudly to someone on her phone, mostly complaining that she had such a bad sore throat that she couldn’t even talk. Some people really were behind the door when self awareness was handed out.

    2. Overit*

      Thisc could be my former coworker, “Candy”. We all observed her flirtatious interactions with her 18 year old student worker. Then she took her wearing sheer white shorts with nothing under them whenever he was scheduled. At that point, I had the unpleasant convo with her. Candy was oblivious and defensive. Insisted they were “just friends” and that we were all the ones with dirty minds.
      We reassigned student worker to another staff member. Next day, he told us that he and Candy were “seriously dating” and that they had been living together for a while. She insisted that hebwas mistaken and they just started dating THAT day.
      Yeah, sure.

      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Ok, first of all, sheer white shorts with nothing under them??? What the actual heck? And second of all, they were dating???

      3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Okay inappropriate relationship aside, who wears sheer white shorts to the office with nothing under them in the first place?

        But ICK. Some people really have the self-awareness of a rock.

    4. essie*

      I would think the same thing, if I didn’t know people who would 100% have both of those thoughts.
      I once saw a coworker start vicious rumors about a young woman she didn’t like, to the point where the young woman broke down in tears and left her job shortly after. A month later, said coworker was RANTING and RAGING that she hadn’t been appointed to the Staff Wellness Committee (which was in charge of staff health and happiness initiatives). She literally yelled down the hall “I can’t believe they didn’t name me to that committee! Ask anyone, I’m the most welcoming employee we have!” The young woman’s manager was right there, and almost spit out her coffee.

      1. allathian*

        I hope the young woman’s manager had some well-chosen words for the vicious rumor starter.

    5. toolegittoresign*

      “Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years”

      To type that out about your 18 year old intern (!!!!) and not see a giant waving red flag is beyond clueless.

    5. Angstrom*

      From a country song…

      Shoulda seen the looks on the faces of my Dad and Mom
      When I showed up at the door with a date for the senior prom
      They said: “Well, pardon us son, she ain’t no kid
      “That’s a cocktail waitress in a Dolly Parton wig
      I said: “I know it dad, ain’t she cool, that’s the kind I dig”

    6. Jennifer Strange*

      I knew a guy who, at 26, took his 18-year-old girlfriend to her senior prom. Her parents were apparently okay with this.

      (Two years ago it was discovered that he had placed a camera in the girls’ locker room at the high school where he work(ed) as a maintenance man)

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Not sure. I don’t live in that area anymore (an area that is, unfortunately, of the “boys will be boys” mentality).

      2. Yes Anastasia*

        Before I got to the second paragraph I was going to joke, oh, wow, you knew Jerry Seinfeld? (Though as I recall, that age gap was an even larger coefficient of yikes).

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Funnily enough, my MIL did go to college with Jerry Seinfeld (they didn’t know each other, but she has her yearbook with his picture in it).

      3. Despachito*

        I get the camera thing was utterly inappropriate and creepy, but what was wrong with the senior prom?

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          I think it’s more a 26 year old dating a schoolgirl. If she has a senior prom, she’s still at school, in the role of a child and spending 6 or 7 hours of her day being told she has to call teachers in their 20s “Mr. X” and “Ms. Y” because they are adults and she needs to respect them as such and not see them as in any way equal to her.

          While by the last year or two, it relaxes a little, school is based on the idea that adults are not only experts in their subjects but they are figures of authority that the students should look to for life guidance because they are adults and far more experienced and worldly-wise than a teenager.

          So it is difficult for most school boys and girls, even if they are “legal” to see a 26 year old as their equal. In school, where they spend much of their day, 26 year olds are placed in a category with their parents.

          A 26 year old really shouldn’t be going to what is essentially a school dance.

    8. Escape from LA*

      I hope LW doesn’t live in a boat parked in Andre’s family’s driveway in Tusuque and gives Andre’s friend alcohol poisoning.

  21. Jonathan MacKay*

    I’m of the opinion that the only time flirting is appropriate in the workplace if is if you work from home, and with your S.O.!

  22. Madre del becchino*

    A 40-something woman and an 18-year-old student was bad enough before reading that OP was married. Several levels of ick going on there…

    1. StressedButOkay*

      And if we were to reverse the genders of OP, how would OP feel about a 40something man in a flirty!work relationship with an 18 year old? 18 year olds, no matter how mature, are still mentally and emotionally developing, and that’s creeping into predatory area, especially since OP is in HR/has power over hiring, etc.

    2. Anon Attorney*

      And saying that he made her feel attractive! Resolve that with your husband and keep the 18-year-old out of it.

  24. Heffalump*

    Somehow when I saw the headline, I was thinking it was a male LW flirting with a female student employee (which would also have been Very Bad). And then it all came flooding back.

    This is like passing a horrific traffic accident and being unable to pull your eyes away.

    1. AskingForAFriend..*

      Methinks that the LW would NOT BE OK if this was their spouse and one of their spouse’s suboordinates at work

  25. Ess Ess*

    The fact alone that a coworker heard the innuendo conversation about the toner cartridge has turned it into potential sexual harassment complaints. It is not just the target, but also witnesses/bystanders that are considered victims of harassment if it makes them uncomfortable. The fact that a coworker already spoke to OP means that it has already risen to a concerning level and needs to stop immediately. As an HR person, OP should already know this and be aware that this is skirting EEOC harassment territory when coworkers are mentioning the comments and observed actions.

  26. CityMouse*

    Wow. I’m kind of shocked someone could write all that out and not see they were the problem.

    1. Paint N Drip*

      She really typed out “Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years” and then hit send! AND posted it to Reddit too!! And thought she was in the right!!!

  28. Crencestre*

    Jane did you a GREAT favor by warning you that your behavior could result in a charge of sexual harassment BEFORE THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS! Chances are that others HAVE noticed your flirting with Andre and ARE making jokes about it, but even if Jane made that up to add weight to her warning, the following could easily happen:

    1. Andre gets fed up and charges you with sexual harassment; he has plenty of witnesses and can back up his charges.

    2. You are summarily fired from your job and can forget about a good reference from your company. Your professional career has just taken a nose-dive because no decent company wants to hire a harasser who could bring down a lawsuit on THEIR company.

    3. Stunned at these charges and the evidence that backs them up, your husband decides that you’ve been cheating on him and divorces you.

    Oh, and add all the jokes, innuendo and contemptuous cracks about “dirty old broad” and “robbing the cradle” that circulate in your office until you’re fired. And these days, those jokes and cracks find their way online so that an infinite number of people get their first and only impression of you THAT way!

    If the above scenario doesn’t appeal to you, then stop flirting with Andre. Whatever you may think, chances are overwhelming that he isn’t enjoying this nearly as much as you are!

    2. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      And let’s not forget the part where someone ELSE could report a sexualized environment, even if they’re not part of the conversation in question.

  29. Sneaky Squirrel*

    I’m in HR and I’ve been caught flirting by my colleagues, and the person is a student, and I’m married, and my coworker pointed out the HR 101 concerns to me, but obviously I’m right and this is okay?

    Some days I wonder if these letters are made up scenarios that people are submitting – because it almost seems like they’re going out of their way to highlight every red flag just to turn around and say “but obviously I’m right”.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Eh, there have been some letters that similarly highlight the letter-writer’s own red flags where the LW sent in an update and/or responded in the comments, so I’m inclined to believe that most of these letters are real.

      The examples I’m thinking of are:

      “is the work environment I’ve created on my team too exclusive?” from July 25, 2017 (two updates)

      “Telling an employee born on Leap Day she can’t have her birthday off” from January 29, 2018 (one update)

      “my wife says my relationship with my coworker is inappropriate” from May 17, 2022 (letter-writer participated in the comments section as “Oblivious OP”)

      1. Cinn*

        Don’t forget these, I think they both had updates.

        “My best employee quit on the spot because I wouldn’t let her go to her college graduation” from July 5, 2016

        “I was rejected because I told my interviewer I never make mistakes” from February 13, 2024

        1. Hlao-roo*

          How could I forget the “I never make mistakes” letter-writer! A classic!

          In the comments on that post, some people brought up Juice Guy (Letter #4 of the “my boss treats me like I’m not very smart, I got in trouble for taking someone’s juice, and more” post from May 31, 2017). For those who haven’t read it, he commented a number of times as “Andrew” to argue that he wasn’t a thief for drinking someone else’s juice in the breakroom because he was honest about the fact that he drank the juice.

          1. Ali + Nino*

            That’s hilarious, I must have missed that one – I can’t be a thief because I was honest about it! Yikes.

            1. Irish Teacher.*

              What I found most bizarre was doesn’t he KNOW if he intended to steal it. He commented with something like, “but I don’t see how I can be a thief because if I were trying to steal it, I’d have lied.”

              I could see somebody taking something by mistake, but…I doubt they’d start suggesting they could have lied.

        2. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

          And let us never forget “I didn’t get the job because I was a rude ass on the train on the way home from the interview TO my potential boss’ wife. But I didn’t know it was her!” If I got that right…

          1. Hlao-roo*

            “CEO’s wife ruined my job prospects” from July 5, 2017 and an update where the letter-writer bemoaned that his prestigious English university never taught him to be polite to receptionists/security guards/etc. because that could help him get a job. Another classic!

            1. Irish Teacher.*

              Yeah, that was the part that really had me staring. “Thank you all for your advice. I really think universities ought to teach this stuff because I got a lot of careers advice but was never told I should be nice to people who didn’t seem important in case they turned out to have connections to people who had power.”

              Ummm…you are meant to be nice to people anyway, not just because somebody with influence over your life might find out you weren’t.

              1. The Kulprit*

                Right? He didn’t get that “Basic Human Decency” isn’t a life hack, or a tool to be used to get what you want. He ran face first into the point, and just kept running.

                1. Despachito*

                  He seems not to have read any fairytales where you are nice to an old beggar and share your last slice of bread with him and he gives you the golden sword so that you could win a princess.

    2. MsSolo (UK)*

      What you have to assume is that there is a bunch of even worse stuff they rationalised leaving out (Jane couldn’t have seen us in the copier room that other time, so I’ll focus on the banter, banter’s fine and normal, right) which means they think these flags are merely light pink, so explain why the issue maybe isn’t coming wholly out of nowhere but honest it’s all a big misunderstanding.

    3. Ama*

      The level of self-denial that can happen when someone puts their own personal pleasure over the actual ethics of a situation knows no limits.

      I worked for some years with a person who had done a lot of research into how people learn, and he had an entire section of the book he wrote on the difficulties of teaching people facts that go against their beliefs (such as teaching evolution to someone who grew up in a creationist religion) and that if the person didn’t *want* to change they would make any leap of logic they needed to convince themselves that their original beliefs were correct. Since working with him, I am far less shocked by people’s most outlandish beliefs.

      I hope this OP someday got to the place where she *wanted* to change and I hope it was before a formal complaint was filed against her or her marriage suffered.

      1. Carol the happy*

        Speaking as someone whose ex WAS this clueless, the spouse already knows “Something” is off. You don’t have to eat the whole omelette to know the eggs were bad; there’s something in the smell. It’s just that you might not be able to pin it down.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah, I remember speaking to someone who was well versed in this sort of psychology and he was really familiar with the dynamic of people in affairs being this giddy and teenagery – it was simply a result of them getting huge amounts of cheap validation. When it was in the workplace they never noticed when they were being inappropriate; I remember him using the phrases “high of their asses” and “operating with half a brain” As a marriage counsellor he took cases where the betrayed spouse reported”a complete personality change” tracked what happened when the affair went south and stopped being pleasurable (you can imagine how often that happened). Nearly all of them then regained their previous good judgement (and a fair amount of horror at their actions).

      1. Someone*

        I would be interested in hearing from Jane. Did the boss retaliate? Did the boss get some common sense? Where is Jane now?

        I found a similar post on Reddit AITA. The details are broadly the same, but it was from the employee’s point of view. The difference is that after the HR meeting, the boss sent an email that blamed her for the team losing a bonus as she was complaining to HR instead of working. She replied that if the company had solved the problem earlier, then there would be no problem, which led to colleagues accusing her of going too far.

        I think that the Reddit post is a parody of Jane’s letter, or at least a coincidentally similar case, but if it’s the same case, things got much worse.

    5. Someone*

      It can seem like a guessing game sometimes. The one I’m interested in revisiting is “my assistant quit because of St. Patrick’s Day pinching”.
      Or to put it another way: “How can I punish my assistant for being upset when coworkers assaulted her because she’s Irish?”

      It’s one of the most disturbing letters I’ve seen here. If it’s real, then 2 people at that organisation thought it was acceptable to pinch the assistant. Then there’s the manager refusing to give support but instead threatening her future career. Other readers have said the culture is ‘fratty’.
      Finally, commentators think that there’s sexism involved. As Falling Diphthong said:
      I think it’s not wild coincidence that the letter isn’t “The CEO, a 6’3″ former defensive end in his 30s, was pinched by a junior associate. He yelled, made it clear that he didn’t want this, and a minute later junior associate 2 went for his butt because he thought the first reaction was really funny.”

  31. learnedthehardway*

    It’s just appalling that an HR PROFESSIONAL didn’t realize how inappropriate this behaviour was, and wasn’t able to recognize it even when Jane brought her (very well founded) concerns to the OP’s attention.

    Honestly, the OP needed remedial training on professional deportment and sexual harassment.

  33. Meep*

    The way it just keep getting worse and worse…

    Andre may be an adult and may be into cougars, but ffs, you are practically his superior!

  34. I should really pick a name*

    we never do so in front of others to make others feel uncomfortable

    I kind of love how this comes AFTER they describe the coworker overhearing them.

  35. The Not-An-Underpants Gnome*

    Halfway through this letter I started to hear Dr. Cox from Scrubs singing “Wrong wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong” in my head. Did that happen to anyone else?

  36. T.N.H*

    I do think there is a highly likely possibility that Andre was messing with LW and was not actually interested. I could see this being hilarious to an 18 year old. And the fact that LW states she hasn’t felt this good in years says she’s not used to getting this type of attention.

    1. RagingADHD*

      It really doesn’t matter what Andre’s intentions were. The LW is in a position of responsibility four times over (Staff vs student, HR, seniority, Andre’s interviewer/supervisor). It’s the LW’s behavior that is the most problematic. If the flirting were originating with Andre, LW should be the one to shut it down.

    2. Clisby*

      At least one comment similar to this was posted on the original letter.

      It doesn’t matter whether Andre was messing with LW. If he was, LW was giving him crystal clear evidence that that kind of behavior is effective in the workplace.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          That’s the point, though. It shouldn’t. She is a HR professional who should know how to handle inappropriate behaviour from a student without twirling her hair in response. If she can’t handle comments maybe she shouldn’t leave the house alone.

        2. Antilles*

          Why would it? I mean, LW is very clear in the post that this is totally normal co-worker behavior, nothing more than usual social nuance, no real sexual tension here, nothing to discuss here. So if it’s really as innocent and meaningless as she portrays, why would it matter if he’s just messing with her? If he goes “no, I was just having a laugh”, she should chuckle right along because she wasn’t serious about it either.

          (of course the non-sarcastic reality is that LW is kidding herself, it would make a huge difference to LW because she’s more emotionally involved than she’s willing to admit/realize)

            1. Observer*

              She is not just not thinking rationally. She’s behaving *atrociously*. And she’s the one with experience, status and power.

    3. Summer Bummer*

      Right??? I couldn’t help but think of Girls5eva when Wickie dates a much younger man who turns out to be twins pranking her for TikTok.

      LW, when you’re giving Wickie Roy, something has gone wrong

      1. T.N.H*

        Exactly. Actually I think assuming all of her actions are being recorded might help direct her behavior. Whether for TikTok, her husband, or her boss.

    4. Observer*

      I do think there is a highly likely possibility that Andre was messing with LW and was not actually interested.

      While it’s highly likely that he’s not actually interested, the rest of your comment? No. Absolutely NO.

      Even if he did have the stupid idea to “prank” her this way, she could have shut it down in about 5 seconds. But not only did she not do that, she’s piling on. And on, and ON.

      So, please let’s not try to make her into some victim while he’s the evil mastermind with a childish sense of humor.

  37. Audrey Puffins*

    I’ve read this one a number of times, but the thing that really stood out this time is that the LW and Andre got flirty enough over the course of a week that Jane felt the need to say something. None of this is appropriate but the fact that it was so concentrated makes it even more alarming. I hope Alison’s reply was the dose of reality needed, and that Andre is thriving in a workplace with no bees.

  39. Fiachra*

    Is there a technical term for when people receiving clear complaints reply with “nobody’s complaining”?

    5. Heffalump*

      “Why are employees blindsided when I fire them after warning them that I might?”

      (Giving the title rather than the URL so Allison doesn’t have to release it.)

  40. Irish Teacher.*

    This is problematic on so many levels.

    For one thing, Andre is there, at least partly, to learn business norms and the LW is teaching him that this is OK. If he does this to a manager in his next job, it is likely to end badly for him. Heck, even if he does it to a peer, it could end very badly. And how is Andre to know it’s wrong and that he shouldn’t do it in future if an experienced HR employee who was involved in hiring him not only encourages it but engages in it too?

    There is also the question of what if at some point the LW crosses a line (even unintentionally) and does something that makes Andre uncomfortable. Will he be comfortable saying that to a member of the panel that interviewed him when he is only 18 and quite likely still sees the permanent employees as “real adults” and in a similar role to his teachers and when he is trying to make a good impression? Especially when he has previously flirted back?

    There is a real risk that Andre could feel harrassed or coerced even if he hasn’t yet at the point when the LW is writing.

    I’d also wonder if Andre even necessarily fully understands how the LW is interpreting the interactions. I think it quite unlikely that he would consider that their interactions are making the LW “feel more attractive than I have in years.” It’s far more likely he considers it a jokey interaction, partly because it is so ridiculous – a woman in her 40s being interested in a boy barely out of school or a teenage boy being interested in a woman probably similar in age to his mother. It’s quite possible he has no idea how the LW feels about this and sees it just as “being included with the adults” or as “just banter.”

  42. RagingADHD*

    “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years,”

    I don’t think it’s Jane who fails to understand the situation. I think Jane understands it perfectly fine, and LW has their fingers in their ears shouting “LA LA LA, I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”

  43. Strive to Excel*

    The first rule of relationships at work is don’t date at work. The second rule is that if you absolutely must date someone at work, keep it out of the chain of command and any other power differentials. And the third rule is that innuendo is always inappropriate at the office, no matter who is hearing it.

  44. Czech Mate*

    I once worked at a school where we were prohibited from having student employees specifically in order to avoid any scenarios where sexual harassment or appearances of favoritism could result. We were also prohibited from being friends with students on social media, having their phone numbers, meeting with them in public, etc. Some of that was a little extreme, but I’ve found that to be good background for future higher ed jobs where restrictions were looser.

    When someone is an employee AND a student, you have to be so, so, so careful. If anything, it’s more like a teacher/student relationship than an employer/employee relationship. The student is more vulnerable than a typical employee (in higher ed, sometimes their ability to pay for school is tied to their on-campus job; sometimes their visa status is affected as well) so you must be extremely careful.

  45. Selina Luna*

    I work in the same building as my real-life, actual husband. We’re very affectionate at home. At work, we maintain a distance of at least a foot between us, and we DON’T FLIRT AT WORK because that’s unprofessional. This doesn’t mean we never talk about home stuff at work, but it’s generally surface-level. Stuff like getting groceries, picking up prescriptions (vaguely, not specifically), grabbing the car keys. I have flirted at work, but I was 16 and didn’t know better at the time. And I felt kinda horrible when I learned how unprofessional I had been. How does this HR professional in 2020 not know this?!
    Well, in 2020, hopefully the pandemic put a stop to some of this anyway.

  46. CommanderBanana*

    Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings, and based on the questions above, she seems to believe it’s okay to ask about my private life because of this. Is there a tactful way I can explain to her that she shouldn’t try to police her coworkers’ social interactions, especially if they’re not meant to be public?

    I know this is an old letter and we never got an update, but LW, you should get into literally any other field than HR. You are so far over the line that you can’t even see the line.

      1. N C Kiddle*

        She’s struggling to grasp The Point so it’s hardly surprising The Line eludes her (sorry, maths joke)

  47. Liz the Snackbrarian*

    My thought for LW is even if she wound up engaging in a romantic relationship with Andre, could it really last? It sounds like they would be looking at least a 22 year age gap and I know some couples make age gaps work, but rarely one so large. Even if she weren’t married and this guy’s manager, the situation is still messy.

    1. The Original K.*

      And there’s a difference between 18 and 40 and 40 and 60. Age gaps get smaller the older you get. 18 and 40 is huge – it’s someone with basically no adult life experience with someone in midlife.

  48. DinoGirl*

    Holy cow this is awful and I somehow never saw the original. I would love an update as to whether or not they understood or got fired
    All other concerns valid, if this is in higher end, could also result in a Title IX complaint. Working in HR makes it doubley awful.
    The mental gymnastics people do when they have an inappropriate crush. Yikes.

  49. awkward turtle*

    Gross gross gross. This has all the same vibes as my first post-college internship where one of the techs had a long history of sleeping with interns, sometimes multiple over the course of an internship. One of his friends said she was worried he was opening himself up to a sexual harassment complaint, but nobody DID anything. It was so uncomfortable. (We were the very first cohort where nobody slept with him. We went out for pizza and high fived to celebrate.)

  50. Anonymously Grateful*

    Reading this makes me so overwhelmingly grateful for all the authority figures on whom I had crushes over the years (teachers, bosses, random adults who were nice to me) who DID NOT ENGAGE. I am so grateful for their professionalism and their integrity and their refusal to take advantage of a human version of a lost baby duck trying to bond with literally anything in its path (and thought the way to bonding was to make myself available for all sex, all the time, I’ll do whatever you want just please like me and be nice to me).

    They engaged with ME and worked with ME and gave what they had in the realm of guidance and instruction and modeling to ME. Not one of them saw me as an opportunity or an ego boost. Their professionalism is what I look to when I am working with a young person nowadays.

    I hope they feel this out in the universe – they deserve it.

  51. Turingtested*

    I worked with teenagers for years and I feel so bad for Andre. Whatever LW thinks, she is in a position of power and there’s inherent pressure on Andre to respond in kind.

    I really hope LW came to her senses and left him alone.

  52. DramaQ*

    Ick! I have 20 something male coworkers. I’m old enough to be their mother!

    We do all eat lunch together and I’ve formed a friendship with one there are boundaries!

    Once more I’m old enough to be his mother and that’s not my thing.

    Two I’m married.

    Three he is still my coworker.

    Holding your arm on the way back to work?! Sexually charged jokes that apparently the entire office is enduring?

    No no no. This isn’t some rom com this is real life. You’re not only destroying your reputation but you’re risking his too. An 18 year old with no real world experience likely doesn’t realize this isn’t okay. Especially because you are an HR person engaging in this behavior.

    That the words “my husband doesn’t need to know” were uttered says right there this isn’t innocent.

    I’m so open about work my kids can guess who I am talking about without me saying names. Everyone also “knows” my husband at work.

    You’ve lit your professional life on fire and it’s only a matter of time before Jane reports it. She was nice to warn you.

    You still need to stop but doubling down has likely sealed your fate.

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      Yeah, I once mentioned a colleague I don’t work closely with and have little to do with – we don’t have much in common either – and my mum was quite surprised that “I never heard you mention him before” because she has probably heard of most of my colleagues in various contexts.

  55. Beebis*

    I was fully ready to defend LW against someone who thought normal interactions with an opposite sex coworker was flirting but nope nope nope I’m 100% with Jane here

  56. HB*

    My default is to be on the LW’s side so it’s always funny reading these types of letters to see at what point they cross into “Oh, no….” territory. Here it was probably the “If only I could get a girl with legs like yours” line, but then the “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant” line really sealed it because it confirmed this is genuine flirting – not merely weird banter.

    One other thing the LW should really think about is that part of her role is to teach Andre how to behave in an office environment. Because they’re friendly/relaxed around each other it’s actually *more* crucial for her to think in terms of default professional norms and how things would look to an outsider, and how things would look/feel if they weren’t on friendly terms.

  57. The Kulprit*

    I remember reading this the first time and thinking, “oh, wow. It *is* as bad as it sounds. “

  58. Susannah*

    Yes, the sexually-themed comments need to stop, and any flirting (through this, to me is not flirting).
    But Jane is a busybody and a jerk. I mean… asking LW if her husband “knows” about Andre? What’s to know? And why is it any of Jane’s damn business?
    While I absolutely agree LW needs to cool down the interaction with Andre (especially because she’s in HR and he’s very young) I get a whiff of Jane and maybe others having little crushes on Cute Young Andre, and being resentful LW is engaging with him.
    But if I had a joking relationship with a colleague of the other sex, even one where we made somewhat provocative comments, I’d be annoyed if others in the office tried to police me.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      Honestly, I doubt Jane has a little crush on somebody who is pretty much a schoolboy. It is far more likely that she is concerned either that he is being taken advantage of or is just generally uncomfortable with the LW’s behaviour.

      I don’t think Jane is a jerk. It is very difficult for anybody, including the LW, to know for sure if Andre really consents or if being in what is likely his first job, he just has no idea if he can say no to somebody in the position the LW has or how to go about doing it without damaging his future career prospects.

      I think the fact that he is barely legal makes a big difference here. Sure, he is an adult, but if it would have been extremely problematic for any adult to flirt with him say 18 months ago, I think an adult more than twice his age and in a position of authority over him flirting with him now remains problematic. If he couldn’t consent to a 25 year old who he knew socially 18 or 20 months ago, it’s highly questionable if he can give informed consent to the LW now.

      I think there is a pretty big difference between a joking relationship with a peer (which would still probably be inappropriate in the workplace if it involved these jokes and would certainly be inappropriate for her marriage but the latter is none of Jane’s business) and making sexual jokes to a new adult who is a long way beneath you in the hierarchy.

    3. DramaQ*

      Are you the LW?

      It isn’t just the provocative comments which are a problem on their own. They are brushing against each other in the hallway, at least one person saw him holding her arm on the way back from lunch.

      I have a feeling the LW is much more blatant than she describes in the letter.

      Andre likely doesn’t know any better, especially with someone in HR engaging him. He’s fresh out of HS where hormones run rampant and seeing at least one couple necking in the hallway isn’t unusual. As the older adult and on top of that being HR it is the LW’s duty to shut Andre down.

      It can NEVER be innocent flirting with the power imbalance going on both in terms of age and the fact she is in HR. You can never be 100% confident Andre is a consenting participant or if he feels like he has no options. Men are even less likely to report sexual harassment than woman which adds another legal layer.

      Personally I don’t think Jane crossed a line at all. It is clear the rest of the office thinks LW has progressed to sleeping with Andre or will soon do so. Asking if her husband is aware is fair game with the LW walking around with her head in the clouds like a love sick rom com teenager.

      The fact the LW doubled down and even told Jane “her husband doesn’t need to know” says everything anyone needs to know about the “joking relationship” she has with Andre.

      Maybe Andre doesn’t feel that way about her and just thinks she’s a cool 40 something who gets Gen Alpha (?) humor. The LW sure as heck is thinking sexually about Andre. And that’s NOT acceptable in the workplace.

      Or anywhere really but if she picked up Andre in a bar I would wrinkle my nose but as you have said I would mind my own business.

      Watching my elder HR coworker openly flirt with the work intern. Not okay and yes I am going to say something.

    4. No, just no*

      I really doubt others have a crush on their 18 year old student worker. Most adults (even in their twenties!) consider 18 way too young to be interesting romantically, since this is someone fresh out of (or possibly still in) high school. When I was in my early twenties my friends who were dating people significantly older were dating people who were looking for someone with limited life experience who would be easy to manipulate. And even those creeps drew the line at teenagers!

      Also it’s Jane’s business because she’s being exposed to a sexualized environment at work. She could file a sexual harassment claim on her own behalf based on the comments she’s been exposed to.

    5. DramaQ*

      Eww. I highly doubt Jane is jealous that the LW is getting attention from Andre. That line of thinking is how you get to where the LW is now.

      No just no. Jane has every right to say something. She is watching someone who is in a position of authority take advantage of an intern.

      It does not matter WHAT Andre thinks about the situation is imbalanced and there is no way it can be certain that he consents.

      He may be thinking the LW is just a cool 40 something who “gets it’ unlike other stuffy millennials in the office. He doesn’t have any real world experience to go on. He may not think of the LW the way she is thinking about it AT ALL. And what happens to Andre if he makes that known to the LW?

      Jane probably asked about the LWs husband because for anyone who has common sense that should shake you out of your behavior. If I am having to hide my behavior from my coworkers, my boss, my spouse is it really as innocent as I think it is?

      That is ethics and sexual harassment training 101, something the LW should be well versed in.

      She picks up Andra randomly at a bar one night and brags about her escapades or he was her pool boy? Still gross but you’re right Jane should MYOB.

      In the workplace? Sorry Jane is 100% correct on this one. You see something you say something. The LW should have been thanking Jane for mentioning it to her first and giving her a chance to course correct. Instead she doubled down. Jane is going to be going to LWs manager next.

    6. Nonsense*

      It reads to me as an appeal to the LW’s common sense (such that it is), not that Jane herself has a crush. It’s the kind of comment I’ve used before on friends who were gushing about how their desk mate in XYZ class was their soul mate and a match made in heaven – “you literally only see this guy in one class, how much do you actually know about him?” Same thing with asking if LW’s husband knows about this – common sense would tell her that if it’s really so innocent she wouldn’t be hiding it from her husband, but since she is, then she knows it’s not innocent.

      Problem is, people don’t use common sense as often as we would like. But we still do it, because we can see how utterly ridiculous it is, forgetting how very good people are at rationalizing their actions to feel good about them.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      You must be in a garden all alone, because no one else is smelling that flower.

      If anything, Jane did LW a HUGE favor by warning her that her little escapading isn’t as discreet as she thinks it is.

    8. metadata minion*

      Your coworkers have a right to a workplace free of sexual comments, including jokes.

    9. metadata minion*

      Also, as someone who is probably about the LW’s age and interacts with undergraduate student employees, I’m not attracted to them. At most I will think “Wow, Alex is really rocking that look, you go kid!” in a vaguely avuncular sort of way.

      Libidos do weird things, and it’s not a crisis to be occasionally attracted to someone inappropriate, but this is where, as a grown-ass adult in a position of authority, you ignore those feelings until they go away.

    10. N C Kiddle*

      Jane is most likely trying to shock LW out of her wishful thinking haze, either by pointing out that it’s nowhere near as innocent as she’s claiming or by reminding her that it could have consequences. She’s doing LW a favour by trying to reason with her: if she wished LW ill she could have gone straight to the manager or just said nothing and got the popcorn in.

  59. Not Another Username*

    Ooof. I recently exited a monogamous relationship and my ex definitely did not understand inappropriate flirting with exes, co-workers, and people circling her in the friendzone. She described the inappropriate interactions as being like powerups in Mario that helped her get through a tough time -_-

    It’s an entitlement mindset. “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years.” No need to tell him about Andre, but I hope OP did talk to her husband about that feeling so that they could figure out what part was her stuff to work on and what role her husband had.

    1. Angstrom*

      Every time something like this comes up I think of Esther Perel’s “Most affairs are not about wanting to be with someone else. They are about wanting to be someone else.”

      Suddenly feeling attractive and desireable is heady stuff, especially if you haven’t felt that way for a long time. I can even feel a little sympathy. But the power imbalance, delusion and dishonesty makes this relationship absolutely wrong.

  60. Margaret Cavendish*

    Whew, I remember this one, and I remember my jaw dropping more and more with each paragraph.

    This whole thing is a dumpster fire, there’s no doubt about that. But there’s one potentially mitigating factor that I’m curious about. July 2020 was peak Covid, peak lockdowns, peak absolute weirdness and nobody knowing what was going on anywhere in the world. I know my sense of “normal” was pretty skewed at the time, and I’m sure others’ were too. I imagine people took all kinds of unusual risks – things we might have recognized as a bad idea at any other time, but things were just so, SO messed up at that particular time. I wonder if OP is looking back now, as horrified as the rest of us now that she has some distance from both the relationship and the pandemic.

    To be clear, she is still responsible for her behaviour! I bring up the pandemic not as an excuse, but as a potential explanation for why she didn’t see what was wrong with it at the time.

    1. Humble Schoolmarm*

      It’s certainly possible. I have to say, though, in July 2020, I was so busy trying to figure out what “a hockey stick and a half” actually looked like in real life that the idea of casually brushing against anyone would have been extra shocking.

  61. supeisedcanuk*

    I wonder if LW watched the TV show the office. This is some classic Micheal Scott energy.

  62. Having a Scrummy Week*

    Oh, dear. I’ve worked with plenty of students before and we tend to develop relationships where we playfully tease each other about hobbies, etc., but NEVER in a romantic or physical way. NEVER. It is troubling that OP doesn’t see how inappropriate this appears, even if the student feels comfortable with it.

  63. H.Regalis*

    You know when you hear about someone doing something ridiculous and you’re like, “What were they thinking?” Here’s an instance where we get to know that.

  64. Sparrow*

    Oh man, as someone who has been in a position similar to Andre’s before, I have a lot of sympathy for him. At least in my experience, this is the kind of thing that can feel really exciting at first—when you’re just hitting adulthood for the first time but are still trying to shake that “I’m an awkward teenager” feeling, having someone older than you express interest can feel flattering and exhilarating and like a sign that you’re becoming a Real Adult.

    Eventually, though, the power imbalance becomes clear and the discomfort starts to set in—but often, at that point, the situation has shifted into one that you’re not sure how to get out of. Particularly in a workplace environment where the older person in question is in HR! If someone in Andre’s position did start feeling uncomfortable and wanted to seek guidance, the most logical place to go would be HR… but he will probably not be comfortable doing that when the person who is making him uncomfortable is part of the HR department.

    I hope that LW ended this situation before it progressed any further, both for Andre’s sake and for theirs (I have to imagine that being in HR and then having an affair with an 18-year-old student worker is the kind of thing that can derail a career, so I do hope LW realized they needed to stop and put an end to everything before that happened).

  65. Pyjamas*

    Is it possible “Jane” wrote this to convince the ostensible letter writer that this is seriously effed up? Can anyone be so clueless? I think the thing that shocked me the most was a 40 something HR employee letting an 18 yo student worker — with equivalent salary—buy her coffee. Even without the sexual harassment, that shows pour judgement. And pretty sure Adam makes jokes about cougars with his buddies

    1. Lizzay*

      “pour judgement” lol, was that an intentional pun? Please don’t tell me if it wasn’t, b/c I love it.

  66. iglwif*

    OMG I had forgotten about this one O_O

    This, THIS is the person who needs all those “here is how not to be inappropriate at work” HR trainings that most of us roll our eyes at.

    There’s the power differential between an established HR person and a teenage intern. (Yes, you treat young interns as adults for work purposes! But the age and power gap makes it even more absolutely yuck to say and do things that would already be inappropriate to do at work.)

    And also, as a 50yo woman who regularly interacts with people in the 17-25 age range (not at work), I am trying to imagine doing or saying any of these things with or to any of them and my entire being is going ABSOLUTELY THE HELL NOT.

  67. Blackbeard*

    “more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings”

    Uhm, no. Flirting is neither harmless nor common in any professional setting. Keep it for the bedroom, or for your Tinder dates.

    1. Lizzay*

      I could argue some *very* *light* “flirting” of the PG-variety with someone at your same level *might* potentially be ok…. (so many caveats) But flat out talking about rough sex ain’t that!

  70. Dark Macadamia*

    I didn’t remember this one at first and was already clutching my pearls over letting a teenage new hire pay for coffee and then the “holding my arm all the way back to the office” thing. And then I got to the toner comment and was like OH RIGHT THIS LETTER nonononono

  71. Former HR Spouse*

    This is super yikes and is how my ex-husband, who specialized in the investigations and employee relations side of HR, behaved with colleagues, direct reports, and sometimes interns. I flagged his actions as gross and unprofessional, and he paid me no mind. He was ultimately (rightly) fired from his position after having an affair with a colleague (not for the first time) and being reported by more than one younger staff member of sexual harassment. This should have torpedoed his HR career, but sadly he is still in the field and seems to have suffered no long-term professional consequences.

  72. Think of this BOY's mom!*

    “Also … you didn’t write in asking for marriage advice, but the relevant question there isn’t whether your husband “needs” to know about Andre. It’s whether you’d be comfortable if he did.”

    And, would Andre’s mom be ok with this behavior. Geez, oh man!

  73. SleepyWolverine*

    It’s posts like this along with personal experiences that really make me wonder if any HR division, anywhere, actually knows what they’re doing. As for my job…the person who fields HR issues is our owner/boss, so you can imagine how little reporting of issues actually goes on.

  74. RebeccaNoraBunch*

    Oh my good lord. As a 41 year old woman, my jaw literally dropped when she said her age. All the icks. ALL THE ICKS. This is a child. Just so gross. And she’s in HR?!?! Absolutely not.

  75. Lizzay*

    Ugh, she’s also teaching a young impressionable person that these kinds of comments are fair game in the office! Today’s 18 year-old willing participant is tomorrow’s sexual harrasser (“I was just kidding around!”). UGH.

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