open thread – October 11, 2024

by Alison Green on October 11, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    A request for everyone: please stop engaging with trolls. It makes a bigger mess to clean up and keeps them coming back. If you want to do something, just flag the comment for me (instructions at the bottom of this page) and otherwise leave it alone. Thank you.

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  2. Bookworm*

    How would you handle this situation with a coworker who appears to be in financial distress? This female was recently transferred to a team that works closely with mine and she sits near me. Very pleasant to work with, knows her stuff. However, she’s always making comments about money. If someone goes out to lunch and brings their food back to eat at their desk, she’ll say something about how they should be saving that money and bringing lunch. If you do bring lunch and have something like a name brand yogurt, she’ll say X store’s generic is just as good. When she saw my new car (a base model small crossover), she said she was worried about how much my car payments were. She drives a 15-20 year old car herself. I know nothing about her family situation, etc., as she is very private. But she’s started coming to work with holes in her sneakers, clothes visibly fraying, etc. Very casual office. I mentioned my great local Buy Nothing group and all the great clothes and shoes I see posted (none of which fits me), but you can ask for stuff too, and told her about the great housewares I’ve gotten from Buy Nothing. I did this as it would save her pride, but give her an option to get some clothes/shoes that wouldn’t cost her anything. I have no idea if she really is in a real financial bind or is just extremely frugal. Her lunches are minimal. A PB&J and an apple. Sometimes I’ll bring extra fruit from home and offer her a piece. She always takes it.

    Any other ideas? I’m rather frugal myself and would enjoy trading frugal tips with her.

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      1. Bookworm*

        The extremely frugal people I know would draw the line at showing up for an office job, even a very casual one, with fraying clothes and their big toe hanging out of hole in their shoe.

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        1. under cat duties*

          Some people don’t know/don’t care. My last job was relatively casual (jeans were ok, we weren’t supposed to wear t-shirts but people did anyway, and no shorts). A new hire in a technical role (at least making $90k/year, probably over $110k) showed up consistnetly in frayed stained t-shirts, ate only a can of tuna for lunch + a fruit. He wore those clothes/ate that lunch for a couple of years. Presumably at some point he would have been able to afford a couple of $10 shirts at a thrift store, if he wanted to appear better dressed.

          I’d say, offer her tips if it seems natural – like you’ve been doing. Offer fruit, if you feel like it. Otherwise don’t engage.

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          1. RussianInTexas*

            My partner is not super frugal, neither am I (we eat brand name foods, and go out to eat and stuff, occasionally shop with coupons), and have a decent household income.
            I need to point out that his polo shirt is developing holes, or that he needs new jeans because his favorite developed stains. He just does not see it. Nothing to do with the lack of money.

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            1. Double A*

              Yeah, I give my husband huge leeway with his appearance but every now and again I have to inform him that he’s crossed into derelict territory and he simply must get a haircut/buy new shoes/throw away that nasty t-shirt.

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              1. Falling Diphthong*

                I love the running bit on Slow Horses where Gary Oldman’s character just leans into how disreputable he can look.

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                2. Bruce*

                  And smells!
                  When we finish Slow Horses I’m going to show my wife The Sandbaggers, none of the characters are like Jackson Lamb in personal style but it is a thrilling espionage series from the late 70s where the agents have to fly economy class due to UK austerity…

            2. Baldrick*

              I work with the military and they have described one of the well paid IT guys as disheveled.

              Bookworm: I’d be tempted to tell her to stop commenting on others’ choices, but other than that I think what you’re doing now is fine.

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        2. Kay*

          Oh no – I’ve seen people with well upwards of 7 figures to their name come to the office with stuff so worn it has actually torn during the day. This in an office that is not casual. Not a good look, but alas, these people exist.

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      2. Atlanti*

        Yeah, the evangelizing about more-frugal options makes me think this is the case. IME people who are in financial distress don’t usually bring attention to themselves in this way.

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        1. RM*

          IDK, whatever I’m super anxious about at the moment tends to come right out of my mouth. Everyone’s different. Also, if you grew up poor around a lot of other low income people you don’t have the same level of shame or sense of oh gosh I need to hide the fact that I’m stuggling!

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        1. Bookworm*

          I don’t know her at all. She doesn’t make any comments about her personal life. I have no clue if she’s single, has kids, a partner, etc.

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      4. Dido*

        You can and should tell her to stop making condescending comments about her coworkers’ food and other purchases.

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    3. HonorBox*

      I think you can continue to casually mention the Buy Nothing group if you run across something cool for yourself, or if you run across a great deal on something, you can mention it. But you really need to let her bring up any financial concerns she might have because you don’t know and can’t really assume she is in need rather than supremely frugal.

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    4. Bitte Meddler*

      If someone is in dire financial straits or just obnoxiously frugal (as WellRed said), neither is an excuse for telling other people how to spend their money.

      Out of everything you wrote, Bookworm, that part is what worries me most. I hope you are able to have a gentle talk with her about keeping comments like that to herself.

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      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Yep. I drive an older car, and that’s my choice. While I am concerned as a human about how much society expects people to put into consumer debt, I only say something when it’s a topic of conversation. (Usually when a younger coworker asks why I pay cash for everything.) But I don’t judge others for handling their finances differently than I do.

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      2. Csethiro Ceredin*

        Yes, it does sound a bit performative in the way she comments about others, but maybe she just has no idea what is appropriate. In that case a light comment that “everyone has their own budget and priorities and best not to judge” would be an easy first thing to try.

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    5. Tio*

      Please keep in mind she may not want them, or already be implementing them. Frugal tips are great – I was a couponer myself when I hit hard times – but they are not going to lift someone out of poverty, either. And sometimes talking about it all the time will make someone weary of it.

      If you have some old clothes, you can mention them *to a group* and ask if anyone would want to look at them before you give them away, and maybe she’ll take you up on it.
      You could mention *to a group* that your “friend” ran into some hard times and got help through her company’s EAP, and they had an employee assistance fund, you’ve gotta check out if there’s anything like that offered by your company. But you have to temper this so it doesn’t look like you’re doing it at her or onyl when she’s around; she may notice.

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    6. TooTiredToThink*

      I feel like you have standing to also say something like, “Please do not comment on my financial choices.” or some of the other ones that Alison regularly suggests (puzzled look, etc.)

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    7. Literally a Cat*

      I was this person: say nothing. Chances are they have stronger poor skills than most people, and the reality is, after growing up from poverty and abuse, holes on shoes is basically heaven on comparison. I still get mocked at work for not being interested in the latest fashion accessories or have zero desire of owning European cars, some people just don’t get that my happiness don’t come from that.

      If her frugal lifestyle results in unprofessional outfits, or if she’s obsessed with how others spend their money, address that if you are in the correct chain of commands to do so. Otherwise, don’t be that person who is obsessed on how she’s not spending her money.

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      1. Bookworm*

        She’s the person obsessed with how WE’RE spending our money. Someone came back from a regional weekend away and showed some neat photos of the scenery they took. She was commenting on how the weekend away cost would have covered a lot of groceries.

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        1. Literally a Cat*

          That most certainly needs addressing. Tell her stop doing that next time she does it. Then do not give her any advice about Buy Nothing, and please stop tracking her lunch choices.

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          1. Bookworm*

            There’s a big difference between noticing what someone brings for lunch, while saying nothing about it, and actually saying something about it. Noticing what she’s bringing for lunch while she’s commenting on ours?

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            1. MsM*

              Hence the telling her to stop doing it. If you actually engage on the subject, you’re just reinforcing that’s an okay topic of conversation/judgment.

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            2. Literally a Cat*

              Again, her comments on your lunch is not appropriate. Nor is your obsession with hers. This isn’t a contradiction.

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            3. RussianInTexas*

              You can notice what she brings, and it’s fine to feel annoyed that she is commenting on yours.
              Just tell her you do not want to discuss your purchases and your lunch choices.

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            4. Ellis Bell*

              I honestly would not be able to help noticing what someone was eating for me lunch if they were super critical of the cost of mine; they might have the secret to all budget issues in there! You’re being super discreet and not obsessed at all.

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          2. TechWorker*

            It ‘most certainly needs addressing’ if you’re her manager – but Bookworm isn’t. It’s annoying, sure, and you can talk to her about it if you want, but I don’t think the workplace is better if everyone has to tell everyone else they are being annoying :p

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        2. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

          That seems like the perfect time to deploy Alison’s standby “What an odd thing to say.” Because it is odd!

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    8. I should really pick a name*

      I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing here.

      Someone should be shutting down all those comments she’s making because they’re really not appropriate.

      What someone brings for lunch is their own business.

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      1. Bookworm*

        I’ve made a few comments about my finances are fine, thank you for your concern, or something along those lines, but I don’t think anyone has directly told her the comments are inappropriate.

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        1. Ally McBeal*

          I don’t think it needs to start with “the comments are inappropriate.” I suggest saying something like “Please don’t comment on *my* own personal financial decisions.” If everyone in the office is onboard with this sort of calm request, she may get the hint pretty quickly.

          I felt the need to shut down my department head’s toxic complaining about food (e.g. “ugh I’m gonna get so fat, I have to stop eating these” when people would bring treats in) – this was at a college so we had work-study students in the office and I know those kinds of remarks can trigger disordered eating, but she had a fragile ego so I couldn’t point that out to her directly. All it took was consistently and calmly making comments like “well, everything in moderation, right?” or “I had to stop so I wouldn’t ruin my appetite for lunch” for her to absorb that no one gave a shit about her body-image issues and would not indulge her by arguing that she was in great shape or whatever.

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    9. Having a Scrummy Week*

      I am very frugal. I have holes in some of my shoes, but I would not wear them to work. Her attitude is truly annoying – everyone has the right to spend money on the things that matter to them without snide comments from coworkers.

      It sounds like this is just who she is.

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      1. Blue Pen*

        Yeah, from just having a limited perspective based on the LW’s post, I’m inclined to agree. I don’t know that I would go so far as to say that I’m frugal or austere in my spending habits, but I really hate spending money on extravagances.

        That said, that doesn’t give me carte blanche to comment on how others spend their money. For example, I could see someone saying something like “oh wow, trip of a lifetime!” to a colleague who went on a pricy vacation, but delving any further than that would raise my eyebrows.

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    10. ThatGirl*

      I think she is being rude, frankly. It’s not her business how other people spend their money. If someone commented on my CAR payment, I would not appreciate it. And I would wonder if they were being underpaid.

      If you really, really need to say something you could approach it like this:

      “It’s probably better not to comment on other people’s spending habits, that can seem rude. But if you ever want to trade money-saving tips, I’d be glad to talk to you one on one about that!”

      If she is truly poor, though, she almost certainly knows the tips and tricks by now.

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      2. goddessoftransitory*

        I agree: I think there’s two separate issues here, that are wrapped up, as it were, in the same subject: frugality.

        The first is this co-worker’s inappropriate remarks about others’ spending habits–it is none of her business what brand of yogurt anybody’s eating or how much a vacation cost. If she makes this kind of remark to you, Bookworm, you are well within your rights to shut it down–not harshly, but with one of the many “I’d prefer not to discuss that” type scripts other posters have provided.

        The second is trickier: you yourself are frugal and would like to exchange tips. There’s a two pronged issue here–too much mentioning of Buy Nothing and similar things may be read as insulting or “hey, noticed you’re really poor; here’s how not to look so Little Match Girl.” Basically, coming across similarly to how she is.

        And also, if you are too bond-y over this kind of thing, she may read it as tacit approval of her behavior, and you may get lumped in with it by your colleagues. That’s not a good look and you don’t want it attached to you.

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    11. Pay no attention...*

      From what you have written, I think she’s virtue signaling. Nothing you say about your Buy Nothing group or your frugal tips will “help” her, because that isn’t her goal and I actually think she’s probably not as frugal as certainly wants you to think she is. She wants to one-up all of you on how anti-consumer, or financially savvy, she is, “oh you buy the generic brand? I reuse my coffee grounds for a week!” She signals frugal, you signal back that you are frugal too, she gets more frugal… suddenly she’s coming into work with holes in her clothes that she wasn’t doing before.

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      1. Juneybug*

        I have never heard of “signaling”, but now that I looked up the definition as well as your excellent example above, that makes sense with some folks in my life.
        Not with frugality (sorry that I can’t help the LW) but with attitude (please, not another meme about your “personal strength” when in reality it comes from being aggressive/rude/threatening) or how important your life is with all of the texts how busy you are (and that’s why you can never attend neighborhood events).
        BTW, I love this website! Learning about others (good and bad) has helped me have awareness and grow as a person.

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        1. Annie*

          Oh yes, I know a woman that all she talks about is how hard she works, how many hours she works, how tough it is. She just wants to be a martyr all the time.
          Another person I know she has created her own struggles in her life, and yes, she’s a caring person, but everyone is constantly saying how much she does for everyone and how stressful it is for her, but she’s put herself in that position.

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      2. Meep*

        Yeah…. I am on the fence about this one, but leaning your way.

        My mom is frugal. She will buy things on sale or after season.

        A couple of my coworkers are frugal. Their eyes nearly popped out of their head when they heard I bought a brand-new 2024 vehicle instead of used, because they always buy used and will change their oil themselves. (I know how to. I just don’t wanna.)

        I have friends who are poor. Their solution is to quietly bow out of activities they cannot afford unless I insist on paying.

        My cheap BIL, though, will comment on what everyone else buys and then drop $500 on gotcha pulls (AKA buying an item without knowing what it is or if you already have it). Mind you, he is bad with money in general (all my in-laws are), but he loves to talk about how cheap he is to the point it is no longer frugal, it is just cheap.

        This is the vibe I got.

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    12. Seashell*

      I would be more worried about the fact that she’s not minding her own business. She shouldn’t be talking about whether or not other people can afford a car payment or scolding people for buying lunch or a particular brand of yogurt. If they’re not asking her for money, it’s not her problem.

      She’s not going to starve from PB&J and an apple. Maybe she’d be more successful in her career if she wasn’t behaving inappropriately in the workplace.

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    13. Artemesia*

      People I have known barely scraping by go to lengths to not let that be obvious — they don’t police other people’s spending or dress performatively poor. There are so many ways to acquire used clothes for almost nothing. I’d not tangle with this.

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    14. Bookworm*

      UPDATE: I just brought my lunch back to my desk (frozen dinner) and yep, comments from her. I told her it was none of her business what I spent my money on and that her commenting on coworkers’ financial choices is not appropriate. I wasn’t snarky and there was no use of profanity. She started crying and headed for the bathroom. That was awkward.

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      1. T.N.H*

        It does seem strange that frozen dinner caused her reaction (as opposed to, say, leftovers from a Michelin star restaurant). I have been in a place financially where I could only eat food made from scratch but I never commented on someone else’s food. What did she say about it?

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        1. Bookworm*

          She said it would have been cheaper to bring a sandwich and fruit like she does. Par for the course for her usual comments. Healthy Choice steamers are something like $3 on sale anyway, so still cheaper than getting carryout for lunch.

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          1. T.N.H*

            Yea, that’s why this seems like virtue signaling or an obsession on her part. It’s not the same as saying you might save money by not having a private jet. Have you looped in her/your manager?

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            1. Csethiro Ceredin*

              I agree with TNH – update your manager on this because otherwise she may misrepresent what happened to them.

              Not everybody solely prioritizes cost above everything else, and almost nobody wants unsolicited feedback on their choices. She was way out of line.

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              1. Bookworm*

                Before I had a chance to update my manager, I got called in by HR. The coworker went straight to HR. I told the HR rep that coworker makes multiple comments daily on coworkers’ spending – lunches, cars, vacations, etc. – out of the blue. There were multiple witnesses when I told her to stop, including an executive. I’m not particularly worried.

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                3. TechWorker*

                  I am invested but also not sure we the AAM commentariat have given the best advice lol… ‘this is inappropriate’ and ‘this is inappropriate and you, a random coworker, should tell them so immediately’ are not really the same thing…

                4. Tio*

                  Well, you get to tell people to stop making rude comments about your lunch, your outfit, anything. And as long as it’s framed as a general “It’s rude to make comments like that about people’s lunches” and not “WE ALL think it’s rude when you make comments about OUR stuff” that is also ok. You don’t have to go directly to HR with every complaint (unlike her) and you don’t have to sit and listen to it either. A lot of Alison’s advice is “gently say something to them directly before taking it to HR” for interpersonal things like that.

                7. Middle Name Jane*

                  This is banana crackers! I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, Bookworm, but I’m also fascinated that we’re seeing this play out in real time.

                8. Bookworm*

                  Everything is fine now. Executive had my back and reported to HR that I was not mean or anything. Turns out he had even heard some of the comments coworker would make about the financial choices of others and he thought she should have been minding her own business. HR told me issue is closed.

          2. Bitte Meddler*

            How much your lunch costs is a red herring here. The issue isn’t that you are being frugal by buying Steamers on sale. The issue is that she feels entitled to insert herself into your (and everyone else’s) purchasing decisions.

            It is literally none of her business if your lunch was $30 because you had DoorDash deliver a Burrito Supreme and Nachos Bell Grande from Taco Bell.

            I’m glad you said something to her. It sucks that she’s so emotionally fragile that she started crying, but that’s none of *your* business / not your responsibility.

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            2. T.N.H*

              Wait, I actually ordered Taco Bell from DD yesterday (I work from home though). Please tell your coworker @Bookworm.

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          3. Reluctant Mezzo*

            Cup O’ Soups are only 44 cents each where I live, and forms part of a decent lunch or breakfast with an add-on. That, and a hard-boiled egg keeps me going for quite some time.

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      3. H.Regalis*

        She needed to be told. You can’t control how people will react. She was being rude and you calmy told her to knock it off. You didn’t raise your voice or throw things or tell her she’s an awful person and should jump off a cliff.

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        1. Orora*

          Yeah, Bookworm set a reasonable boundary. Ms. Frugality didn’t like being told there was a boundary, and her reaction is not Bookworm’s problem.

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        2. Saturday*

          I do think it might have saved some trouble to start off by asking her to stop in a less abrupt way though. Bookworm was in no way obligated to try to spare the coworker’s feelings when the coworker was being incredibly rude, but it potentially could have made things easier. It’s possible it wouldn’t, and everything would have ended up here anyway, but sometimes starting with a more mild request to stop can make things less complicated.

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      5. Annie*

        Yeah, I don’t think you have anything to feel bad about (not that you were saying that you did). If she can’t accept that after putting out that much criticism on other people, that’s on her.

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      6. Csethiro Ceredin*

        Whoa… sorry she reacted so poorly, but she is way out of line with this kind of thing. Aside from that being a thrifty lunch, not everybody’s ONLY priority for every choice they make is how cheap things are.

        You should likely loop your manager in about this just in case she wants to misrepresent this or call it bullying or something (which it was not).

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      7. learnedthehardway*

        Well, either she’s right over the edge from financial stress, or she’s upset that instead of confirming her “more frugal than thou” superiority, you called her on her inappropriate comments.

        My money is on the latter.

        It’s okay to return awkward to sender, which you did, and to decline accepting “you made me feel badly because I was trying to make you feel badly” guilt in exchange.

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    15. Hyaline*

      I feel like you have two issues–one is whether she’s in financial distress or just frugal (or has a mental health issue where she’s focusing unhealthily on money, frankly, because some of this pushes past what someone would do–or more accurately *say*–if they were just in financial difficulty), and the other is the offhand comments she makes to others about their spending. The latter is just really not acceptable, though if you’re not in her line of management, it doesn’t fall on you to formally correct it–but I also would not encourage it. She’s essentially scolding others for not being as frugal with she is, and she’s not going to win friends by haranguing them over their choice of yogurt. I would gently steer conversations like that away from foot-in-mouth land…”I’m sure Betty knows which blueberry lemon yogurt she likes best! Have you tried banana yogurt? I think it’s gross.”

      But as to whether she’s in distress or not–I don’t think you can do much to suss that out. Continuing to commiserate over money-saving tips seems the kindest thing to do regardless, unless she starts giving you red flags that this is an obsessive compulsion…in which case, you can still be kind without feeding the problem.

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    16. Future*

      She may be experiencing financial difficulty, but the judging of other people’s choices lead me to agree there’s a good chance she’s just obnoxiously frugal, like others have said. And no matter what her situation she’s frankly being a dick with her chilling effect comments on other people’s perfectly normal life choices. This isn’t people obnoxiously flashing their Rolexes and luxury South of France getaways when they know their colleagues are barely making ends meet – that I might even be cheering on the bitchy comments. A little. But it’s really not cool for her to make judgy or faux-concerned comments because of her own issues.

      I get the urge to help and it’s very kind and good of you, but her personal issues, be they mental health or financial, are none of your business unless she asks you. But the effect she’s having on you and other people at work is. She’s got to stop no matter the reason she’s doing it.

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      1. Bookworm*

        See my update a bit above yours. I just told her to knock it off. She started crying and headed to the bathroom. I’ll be sure to update on how she is going forward!

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        1. Future*

          I have seen that now! What an outsize reaction! I have sympathy for whatever she’s going through, though it is pretty nasty of her to try and accuse you of being the problematic one. I’m glad your company realised immediately that her accusation had no teeth.

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    18. Not A Manager*

      This whole situation is a little bit weird. Either you want to talk to her about money tips/frugality or you don’t. Chatting with her about Buy Nothing while simultaneously shutting down her (completely inappropriate) comments is kind of a mixed signal.

      Now that you’ve told her not to comment on your financial choices, I think you should just leave the whole situation alone. Treat her normally, and stop monitoring her appearance and food.

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      1. Bookworm*

        I won’t be talking to her about ANYTHING not work related now. The BN group comments were in the past. Now, nothing. If she starts up again, I’ll go to management.

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        1. Saturday*

          I just want to say that people are acting like you’re inappropriately interested in her and her food/clothes, but I get why you would be concerned about the possibility that she is really struggling. And it would be hard NOT to notice her lunch after she commented on everyone else’s – I’m sure you would have been happy to ignore it if she hadn’t made lunches an issue.

          Anyway, just some support because I feel like some comments here are weirdly harsh.

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          1. Bookworm*

            Thanks! I’m an overly observant person anyway. I notice stuff like clothes and shoes. Something odd like a coworker coming to the office with her big toe sticking through a hole in her shoe would jump out at me. And yes, kinda hard NOT to notice her lunch after her constant comments on my lunches and that of coworkers.

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      2. learnedthehardway*

        Disagreeing with this – if you think someone is genuinely looking for frugal options, it’s fine to point them in the right direction. But if the person insists on criticizing your minor (or major) life choices based on the costs of them, you’re allowed to point out that this isn’t welcome.

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    19. Sylvia*

      If you live in a first world country, it’s possible to find clothing and shoes that are in good condition for free through Buy Nothing as you mentioned, Freecycle, various charitable organizations or even the dumpsters. I have a family member who dumpster-dives as a side hustle, and I’m amazed at the things she finds.

      It sounds like your co-worker might be obsessively frugal. My husband is also extremely frugal after growing up in a third-world country, but he doesn’t make comments about other peoples’ choices. That’s inappropriate!

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        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Found Magazine (now online, I believe) has tons of articles about found objects and such; it began when the creator found a note in the street and got obsessed over who had written it and why. He started collecting other found notes and objects and eventually put it all together in ‘zine form!

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    20. DrSalty*

      I wouldn’t make those kinds of assumptions. For all you know she’s just really frugal like you. If you’re into that, I think it’s fine to connect with her on that level.

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    21. anon24*

      I’m in dire financial straights right now. I worry about how long I can maintain before I end up homeless. My co-workers know things are tight.

      When my they talk about their fancy purchases or their fun vacations or are eating delicious take-out while my meal for the day is ramen or pretzels, my only comments are to ask them about it, tell them their trip sounds fun and I hope I get the opportunity someday, or comment how delicious their food smells. Anything else is rude. Besides, I enjoy hearing about the fun things they do. It’s more entertaining than my current life, and just because I’m miserable doesn’t mean they have to be

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    22. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      If she is in financial distress there’s nothing you can do. You were kind to offer the buy nothing group and to share fruit and such. But that’s really the limit. You CAN tell her to stop commenting on peoples lunch choices and tell her its none of her business and she is being rude

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    23. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      What’s wrong with PB&J and an apple for lunch? It’s a great lunch, especially if you don’t want to refrigerate something or cold pack it, and no need to nuke anything.

      Reply ↓
      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yepper, I have this for lunch all the time. Mostly because I’m lazy about food prep and end up slapping something together last minute. As long as you use good bread, it’s not even really unhealthy!

        Reply ↓
    24. CubeFarmer*

      I would say something like, “Thanks for the tip.” or “My car payments are under control, so you don’t need to think about them.” and then otherwise ignore the comments.

      If she keeps it up, then it’s time to say, “These are personal financial matters–stop bringing them up.”

      Reply ↓
    25. DJ*

      It’s acceptable to say please don’t comment on the financial implications of my purchases. If it hasn’t stopped after a few of you have said this then ask her manager/supervisor to speak to her.
      If she is really struggling financially (we don’t know other’s financial commitments) just be sensitive in speaking about your purchases. Although I wouldn’t call buying lunch, a non brand item, a reasonably priced car something that is flashy or rubs it into a broke someone’s face.

      Reply ↓
    26. Despachito*

      Ignore her talk about money.

      Occasionally share some tips if you feel like it. Offer her fruit / some extra cupcakes you buy if you feel like it.

      Otherwise let it be. It is not your battle to fight or your responsibility.

      Reply ↓
    27. Despachito*

      I agree she should not be commenting on other people’s choices and that it is inappropriate and annoying but from what you describe (scruffy clothing, the crying fit) I think there is more behind it than just virtue signalling.

      It seems to me that she is either really struggling, or has become unhealthily obsessed with money. In both cases I think she needs to stop the comments but also needs help.

      Reply ↓
  3. Potato*

    Hi all!

    Looking for some perspective and help on how to approach this conversation with our office manager/HR.

    Let me start by saying, I probably need help on sifting through what’s truly important (and therefore “okay”) to bring up at work vs what’s just me being difficult and I should probably keep it to myself.

    For background – Im 3 months into my current job. It’s a small company, about 10 people altogether, including the owners. HR is 1 person who is reception/admin/office manager/etc and AFAIK no one really works from home regularly although I was told in my interview that it’s an option.

    On to the issue –

    I share an office with someone where we sit across from each other with a thick partition covering all view so we never see each other while at our desks. Beyond polite greetings we don’t talk to each other and our work does not overlap. After a previous job where everyone constantly talked to each other all day long, this would be great except:

    Every single call they make is on speakerphone, including the extremely long hold times with music, and on full volume. These are all work calls due to the nature of the job, not personal calls.

    Slurping and chewing all day long – food noises never seemed to bother me until now. If it was limited to a few meals/snacks a day I wouldn’t fuss but this is all day long in addition to everything else.

    They talk to themselves all.day.long.
    Throwing files on the floor – that has startled me constantly. I have a knee jerk reaction where I audibly gasp at loud sudden noises like that. He apologized at the time but….it still happens.
    Even typing on the computer sounds like an angry typing email..
    banging fists on the desk
    sometimes it literally

    These sounds all intensify as the day goes on.

    So far what I’ve done is –

    headphones, which helps for a little bit of time. But after more than an hour I get a headache, not to mention they’re not comfortable to wear. I do have a few pairs that I can try out but again, I don’t want to have to wear them all day long.

    I have asked if our work phones can support headsets/headphones but I don’t think they do. The office manager has actually brought up the phone issue to him a few times after comments from myself and others, but it continues.

    I’ve tried coming in earlier, 7 instead of 9 so I can have some quiet time and avoid the noise, but they didn’t like that. Also, I can’t get a key to enter, so if I come in before anyone else, I’ll be waiting outside.

    Beyond the phone call issue I haven’t brought up anything else because I just can’t imagine what the solution would be and I just don’t want to come across as being mean or difficult. I don’t want to hurt the coworkers feelings because I’ve been on that end; otherwise this is a good job so I don’t want to jeopardize it.

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      I think it is worth asking if there’s a different desk you can use. Mention that the phone is distracting, and you’re finding the volume of his work to be very distracting. Also, definitely ask for a key. You can say that you like to come in early to have some focus time. You shouldn’t have to wait for someone else’s arrival, and should be able to plan ahead.

      Reply ↓
      1. Potato*

        I did ask for a key but hte office manager said they can’t give new keys to us for xyz reason unless they changed all the locks….I didn’t really understand the reasoning but I didn’t push it.

        Reply ↓
    2. Tio*

      I don’t think you can really address the eating or the typing.

      You can bring up the file throwing with the HR manager, because that’s not how you should be behaving professionally.

      Reply ↓
      1. Potato*

        That was my inclination too on the eating. The typing – if I had a more friendly relationship with him I could bring it up as a joke. I’ll bring up the throwing. I don’t think he does that (or anything really) with anger or maliciousness, just…oblivious? which is why I’ve been sitting on it and seeking advice.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tio*

          As someone who was told “I can tell when you’re mad at who you’re emailing because you type louder” I do believe you can lol. I have sorted that out, but this sounds like something so common and also fairly minor so I doubt there would be much room to push back on it.

          Reply ↓
          1. Potato*

            Oh I have 1000% done that lol typing angrily at a past job so I get it. Its just this is alllll the timeeeee and I don’t see him as an angry or frustrated person

            Reply ↓
            1. Paint N Drip*

              I am a super sensitive little goober, and also jump/gasp at sudden noises, and also generally feel attuned to others in my space. This whole situation would have me at my emotional limit at the end of every day, and I know that others would literally not even notice. Just wanted to chime in with solidarity :)

              Reply ↓
        2. DannyG*

          I learned to type on a mechanical Remington typewriter (early’70’s). I am only comfortable with a mechanical keyboard. I also have a heavy hand when typing anything. I have tried other keyboards, but they just don’t work well for me. So switching out may not be an option.

          Reply ↓
    3. WellRed*

      Can you get some sort of white or brown noise machine to try and mask the worst of it? I hate chewing eating slurping noises but you can’t really say anything about that. I also think you should feel free to keep asking him not to use speakerphone, he’s being totally unreasonable on that.

      Reply ↓
      2. Ama*

        When I was last in the office I sat across from the staff kitchen and next to our helpline staff so I second the some kind of white noise. I had this funny little personal desk fan my mom had purchased for me that plugged in via USB and when that was running it drowned out a surprising amount of ambient noise in my cubicle but wasn’t loud enough for anyone outside of the cubicle to notice.

        Reply ↓
      3. RedinSC*

        Maybe if you got a little fountain, and then used a pink or brown noise generator (I forget which color goes with running water) to simulate the water fall/fountain sound it might drown out much of that, at least the eating noise I’d think. Probably some things, like keyboard might be more manageable if you didn’t have ALL the noise going on.

        I had a coworker back in the day who would suck on hard candies all day because otherwise he was a chain smoker. The slurping/sucking sounds ALL DAY LONG were the worst!

        Reply ↓
    4. Helmac*

      At a bare minimum, you should be able to insist that all calls need to be taken on the handset or a headset. Using the speakerphone in a shared office is incredibly rude. Loud typing and slurping coffee and talking to oneself might be harder to self-police if they are are ingrained habits, but the phone thing is not. Is the office manager/HR person in a position to ask for a level of courtesy when it comes to noises of all kinds that are loud enough to be audible in adjacent office spaces or likely to be disruptive, such as the speakerphone or dropping files on the floor?

      Reply ↓
      1. Potato*

        The office manager has brought it up to him 2x within my earshot. He stops for a day or so but then slides back into that.

        Reply ↓
        1. A manager, but not your manager*

          Are you on good enough terms with the office manager that you can talk to them? If they’re talking to him about it, that seems like a pretty clear indication that it breaks the office norms. The office manager might have a better idea of what the office politics are like and how HR will react (especially if they’ve been there longer than you) and it might be useful for them to have the ammunition of “Multiple people have mentioned that this is distracting for them” if it elevates.

          Unless they’re powerless enough that they can only bringing it up with absolutely no avenues to escalate or are too scared to raise it higher after he’s ignored them a third time.

          Reply ↓
    5. Hlao-roo*

      You wrote “The office manager has actually brought up the phone issue to him a few times after comments from myself and others,” but have you talked to him directly about not taking calls on speakerphone?

      If not, talk to him. He may be thinking “[Office manager] told me not to take calls on speakerphone, but Potato hasn’t said anything so it’s not really a big deal.” I’ll try to look up a few past letters with advice/scripts about how to have that sort of conversation with a coworker and leave titles in a reply.

      If you have talked to him directly (on top of the office manager talking to him), I think you can ask if you can move to a different (shared) office, or if you could get a key so you can work earlier hours, or if you can work from home part time, whatever “asks” make sense for your job/company.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        “My coworker takes all his calls on speakerphone” from November 17, 2021 (#1 on a short answer post) has a good script:

        “Hey Bob, could you not take your calls or play videos on speakerphone? Even with our doors shut, it’s really hard to block out and makes it tough to concentrate.”

        Substitute “even with the divider” for “even with our doors shut.”

        Reply ↓
      2. Artemesia*

        The manager should not be ‘bringing it up’, he should be directing him to not continue to do it. Time to be a squeakier wheel. Get a noise machine etc to cope with his other rude noise but this one is a hill to die on and make. a daily fuss about until forbidding speaker phone use in the office is the rule and is enforced.

        Reply ↓
      3. Potato*

        I’ll try talking to him – thank you for the script! 2 of those solutions sound reasonable to me, so I think I can bring them up – I didn’t just want to go in with a list of complaints and no resolution.

        Reply ↓
      1. Potato*

        I’ve actually considered asking about that, at least 1 day a week to start with but for other reasons. (if it matters the reasons are the commute and lack of work. Commute is my fault. I’m constantly asking for work, like 3+ times a week). Maybe I can add this to that.

        Reply ↓
          1. Mad Scientist*

            Yeah I would not suggest this! I typically use the opposite reasoning – heavy workload is a good time to work from home because I need uninterrupted focus time.

            Reply ↓
    7. FashionablyEvil*

      Headset, definitely headset–even if they’re old school phones, there are ones that come with an old-fashioned jack. Should be relatively inexpensive. I would see if this helps, but it’s reasonable to say that you’re trying to focus and asking him to keep it down a bit. If he hasn’t shared an office before and you’re out of sight, I suspect he hasn’t really grasped the problem.

      Reply ↓
      1. Potato*

        I asked about the headset and they said the phones don’t. I rarely use mine but I think I’ll try it myself and see if it’s possible

        Reply ↓
        2. FashionablyEvil*

          You might have to unplug the receiver and plug in the headset there, but I feel confident it’s doable.

          Reply ↓
    8. Ally McBeal*

      I really think you need to have a talk with your coworker before you bring this back to a supervisor or HR. I didn’t see anything in your comments indicating you’ve said anything to them directly. Alison has some great scripts for this if you search for “noisy coworker” or similar.

      Reply ↓
    9. LingNerd*

      You may be able to ask to change desks, framing it as workstyle differences that are nobody’s fault. He’s just a loud person in ways that wouldn’t be reasonable to change. You are easily startled by sudden noises and also find the overall level of noise to be distracting. If it were just frequent and loud eating or just loud typing or just moving things around roughly, you’d probably be able to deal with it, but all of it combined is a lot!

      Reply ↓
  4. Lost*

    I desperately need some advice. Anyone knew any ways of finding good career advisors for Australian middle ages people who needs to be out of their career that they’ve been in for a while now? Unfortunately I do not trust search engine ads for this.

    Reply ↓
    1. Mob Boss Rob Moss*

      no but i feel you and wish you all the luck in the world. may your path to finding a better spot be easy and quick.

      Reply ↓
    2. Iris Eyes*

      If you were a quality career adviser where would you or your former clients be in the community? Do you have a local chamber of commerce type place? A popular professional volunteer organization? A local social media page for middle age professionals? How can you get into the pond they might be fishing for leads in?

      Reply ↓
    3. Ceanothus*

      This is something I’ve leaned on my social networks for — it’s exactly the kind of low-effort wide-network question that Facebook is good at addressing.

      Reply ↓
    4. Part time lab tech*

      I haven’t found the government funded job search places to be good. If you went to uni, it’s possible there’s a career advisor among your alumni services. You want a middle aged one though who has industry experience.
      Some counsellors/psychologists/coaches specialise in this area so an internet search might help.
      You could try a informational interview at a temp agency who has jobs in the area you want to switch to. SEEK has a lot of temp jobs and you could find an agency through that. They should have a good idea of qualifications, pay and conditions.
      Otherwise, ask around your network.

      Reply ↓
    5. Margaret Cavendish*

      I do! Look for Allison Venditti on LinkedIn – she runs an advocacy organization called Moms at Work, and she has a ton of resources for mid-career change as well. Allison herself is based in Canada, but a lot of the ideas she talks about are universal. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  5. maru*

    I have a low key question that has puzzled me recently. I was interviewing for a *very* large company with offices all over the US. As part of the application paperwork they asked me to ‘list all your present and past romantic partners that are currently employed at MEGACORP’. I (kind of) understand why they want to know that. But where to draw the line? E.g., I dated a woman in college for a few weeks. It did not work out, no drama or anything. I’ve had no contact with her for about 20 years. It is possible that she works for MEGACORP somewhere but I have no reasonable way to find out. I ended up listing no one as my two long term relationships definitely do not work for MEGACORP. I discussed this with family and friends and some suggest I should have included more people in the list and tried to find out what they were doing (which I find creepy) or contact them and ask where they work (which I find very creepy. And where to get the contact information from?? In the example above I just have her very common name to go by.). My mother thinks I should have provided names and all the information I had so MEGACORP could have checked on their own records (as in ‘there was this girl in high school in 1998. We went bowling with a group of friends and made out on the park bench later. But then Mr. Jacobs, you see, he owned the store across the street and knew my mum, chased us off. I never saw her again. Her name might have been Tina or possibly Tessa. She was friends with the girlfriend of my buddy Jake. She had red hair and did not like basketball but went to a Lakers game once with her older brother. But I think she made that up. She also might have mentioned that she wants to become a veterinarian.’ ???). Is my approach stupid? Would you have approached this question differently?

    Reply ↓
    1. Bitte Meddler*

      Do you need a high-level security clearance to work at MEGACORP?

      If not, then your approach was more than fine. Your family and friends are the ones who are off.

      Reply ↓
      1. maru*

        No security clearance involved. I guess that would probably change things a bit. But even then: what if you do have almost no information at all about previous short term partners?

        Reply ↓
        1. fhqwhgads*

          MEGACORP is asking if you know these people work for MEGACORP. They’re not asking you to hire a PI. If they somehow on their own find out that someone you dated for 2 weeks 30 years ago is in some division of MEGACORP you’ve never heard of, worst case they’ll say “why didn’t you mention that?” and you’ll say “I had no idea”. And that’ll be the end of it.

          Reply ↓
    3. Somehow I Manage*

      What an odd question to ask. It is one thing if you KNOW that a previous romantic partner does work there, and I’d list that person. But otherwise, I think leaving off everyone else is fine. You could have even noted something like, “while I dated some other people casually over the years, I’ve lost touch with all of them and do not know their present employer or employment status.”

      Reply ↓
    4. Tio*

      I think this really would only apply to major relationships, not one or two dates, but also if you don’t know where someone works I would not be doing any legwork there. You can always state that – I haven’t spoken to this person I ages and have no idea where they worked. But also, it’s a dumb wording of a question anyway.

      Reply ↓
    5. amoeba*

      No, you’ve certainly done enough! I mean, I can see where they’re aiming with the question (although I’d still find the way of posing the question quite weird, but OK), but if you’re not aware of anybody, that’s fine. They didn’t ask for an exhaustive list of every fling you ever had so they could double-check! (I mean, I also assume that would have been illegal so it’s a good thing they didn’t…)

      Reply ↓
      1. maru*

        What I found strange is that they also asked about family members who work there. But for this question they provided a long list who they count as family member. So they were really specific there but then this vague questions about partners. Strange…

        Reply ↓
        1. Tio*

          Not really. Family members have the same kind of conflict of interest, but are generally easier to know if they are/aren’t in the corp. But they also don’t want to know about your third cousin twice removed you’ve only spoken to once because really that’s barely family anymore in most cases.

          Reply ↓
    6. Rick Tq*

      I think your response was fine, and I’d have approached it the same way. If a current or recent Significant Other works at Megacorp they want avoid all the issues possible if the two of you are in the same group or even the same building.

      I doubt the HR person who was tired of dealing with romance-related issues at work expected you to track down EVERY person you’ve ever dated to find out where they work.

      Reply ↓
    7. Potentially a Celebrity*

      I think what you did was fine. They’re probably just looking for any conflicts of interest in the hiring process from your end, but it doesn’t sound like there might end up being any. At worst, you don’t get an interview with the information you provided.

      If this was for a security clearance job, however, then my advice would be different. As it’s not, though, you should only need to provide information where a COI is obvious.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sweetie Darling*

        I once had Jury Duty where they asked us to confirm that we did not know anyone else selected. Another woman and I briefly made eye contact as we had exchanged maybe 2 emails over the past decade as part of our jobs (different sites, different fields, but small town). We both silently agreed that it did not constitute any type of conflict of interest and kept the process moving.

        Listen, I’m a rule follower but in this and I believe the OPs situation it’s about the big picture.

        Reply ↓
    8. Sick of Getting Sick*

      I would have done the same. Married 18 years here and have not clue what any former boyfriends are doing and it wouldn’t be an issue to me if I ran into them again. They aren’t going to spend that much time researching names you give them who “might” work there. That would be a lot of resources for naught.

      Reply ↓
    9. Harlowe*

      Not the point of your question, but your mother’s willingness to word-vomit piles of personal information to undeserving recipients concerns me. I’d keep an eye on her as the years pass; this attitude is ripe for identity theft and fraud.

      Reply ↓
        1. maru*

          You are right. I have a tendency for malicious compliance. My mother would not have approved of sending a text like this.

          Reply ↓
    10. D. B.*

      There’s an implied ” … that you are aware of” in the question, just like when the doctor’s office asks about your family medical history.

      Reply ↓
    11. Lady Danbury*

      My lawyer hat would require me to answer “As far as I’m aware, none of my present or past romantic partners are currently employed at MEGACORP.” After the letter from the woman who would be working with the father of her child (who didn’t know that the child even existed), I can see why large companies might want to ask about past partners.

      Reply ↓
      1. Honoria Lucasta*

        this is what I was thinking! there have been more than a few letters to AAM about the challenges of former romantic partners, even long forgotten ones, coming back into your life in a work context!

        Reply ↓
    12. LingNerd*

      If you think about why they’re asking, your approach makes sense. They want to avoid accidentally creating a lot of drama on a team and they definitely want to make sure nobody is in each other’s chain of command. If you ended up on the same team as someone who you went on a couple dates with and haven’t seen in decades, you’d probably have a “wow it’s been ages, what have you been up to?” conversation, then swiftly move on and be amicable coworkers. If that happened with someone you lived with for a couple years, things would likely be a bit awkward even if you wish each other no ill will

      Reply ↓
    13. learnedthehardway*

      It’s not the company’s business who you dated, first of all. If you were in a long-term, serious relationship (by which I mean you cohabited or were married) then the company MAY have a valid interest in making sure you aren’t in a reporting relationship.

      Otherwise, this sounds like HR overcompensating for some one-off issue that will likely not be repeated.

      Reply ↓
    14. AnonForThisOne*

      This wasn’t a CIA level question. Large companies have overlapping candidate pools in which new hires know current employees.

      This was less a “who did you date in college” and more of a “are you sleeping with the VP?” kind of question. Your answer was fine

      Reply ↓
    15. NonnaYaBeeswax*

      So far as I know, none.

      Asking this is obnoxious. Supplying names is a violation. What if the applicant dated someone famous and doesn’t want to deal with being asked about it? What if they’re a romantic and don’t date?

      Even if there are no outlier reasons, who you’ve dated is none of their business unless or until they try to make an ex your boss. In that unfortunate circumstance, you have to say something, but otherwise no way.

      Reply ↓
  6. Helmac*

    Is it possible to recover from burnout at the same job where you burned out? And if so, how did you do it?
    I’ve recently admitted to myself that I am definitely in burnout. I have thought about walking away over the last year, but a feeling of loyalty to my team and my amazing co-workers—and honestly not knowing what would come next—keeps me from taking action. I’ve been incredibly “productive” over the last few years, but I’m feeling more and more disengaged from the work. I just feel drained. Our division head always seemed to be the stereotypical boomer workaholic, with not a care in the world for life-work balance and no grasp of how much others need it, but lately I think instead, that’s what it looks like to keep working at 150% with unacknowledged burnout for 20 years. I don’t want that to be me!
    But there are still things I deeply value about this job. I work in philanthropy and have an incredible platform to do good things. I haven’t yet had the chance to accomplish what I came here to do, but we have a (very) new department manager who is starting a new strategic planning round, so I think, maybe now I finally can. I know that I need to be open and engaged to give the new leadership and new planning a real chance, but sometimes I think that the only thing that will give me a reset is a six-month break. I feel so negative all the time, about almost everything, and I no longer trust my own responses. How do you reset when you’re still drowning, or when you have lost trust with your organization to do the work of caring for staff?

    Reply ↓
    1. Potato Potato*

      Yes. My company offers fully paid short term disability leave, so I did that for 6 weeks. It involved many doctors visits though, but my doctor and therapist were both on my side. And then I spent those 6 weeks intentionally developing strategies for dealing with work when I came back. When I did, it was a lot better.

      Reply ↓
      1. Quinalla*

        Yes, I think this is one of the ways to do it.

        I think without some kind of a break and a solid plan of how to change things you won’t recover at the same job. It is unlikely that making little changes is going to get you there, but you could try that.

        I have never burned out, but I definitely have recognized I was headed there and made changes to steer away. So far that has worked for me, but it sounds like you are way past that point.

        Reply ↓
      2. Jay (no, the other one)*

        I did the same thing. It wasn’t just work. We had a major family crisis that hit on April 7, 2020, in the first month of pandemic lockdown. I did was I always do: put my head down and took care of everything. No one at work ever knew there was a problem and I’m a health care provider so work was also A Lot at that time. At the end of August I hit the wall and collapsed in a flood of tears on Sunday night at the thought of going back to work, so I took a month off. In my case it was four weeks of FMLA because they denied the disability and we could afford it so I didn’t bother to fight it (although I did point out that I was on leave for stress-related symptoms and they were making it worse….). Did a lot of sleeping and hiking and relaxing and journaling and had a lot of appointments with my therapist. Went back to work able to set clearer boundaries and no longer feeling burned out.

        So you can recover and stay at the same job as long as you take a serious break. At least a month (two would have been better).

        Reply ↓
      3. Helmac*

        You are not the first person to make this recommendation to me! I would first need to establish a relationship with a doctor and therapist, since both of mine left the medical groups that took my insurance a couple of years ago, and now my PCP is a useless automaton. But, motivating myself to fix that situation could be a good first step.
        I did take a couple of weeks of remote work (not leave) recently to help with a family medical situation out of town, and it was amazing how good that felt to my nervous system to be out of the office. I was still working, but my meeting schedule was much reduced, and I think people were being very nice about not coming to me with non-emergencies during that time. I got so much done! I caught up with a huge, stressful backlog of work in less time than I would have thought possible! I want more of that, please!

        Reply ↓
    2. Too Long Til Retirement*

      Following because I feel the same as you do. I read somewhere on this site I think that 3 weeks is what you really need to “reset” and begin to recover from burnout. The problem with that is that 3 weeks is the entirety of my PTO, so it’s not feasible to take that long of a break. Sometimes I wonder if my issue is simply I Work For A Boomer, or if it’s I Work in America, or a combination of both?

      Reply ↓
      1. Helmac*

        The workaholic culture seems to go very deep in my organization. When my last (boomer) boss was leaving (more than 18 months before the new boss finally arrived this summer), half the speeches at her going away party were about how she must never sleep, must be a robot, must be a superhero because of how amazingly productive she was. And it was true! I’ve never known someone who worked so hard. For us middle managers this was a totally demoralizing demonstration of the value system.

        Reply ↓
      2. Banana Pyjamas*

        I have seen several people here say they were able to get their healthcare providers on board and use FMLA. Is your organization large enough to be subject to FMLA?

        Reply ↓
        1. Helmac*

          Yes, it is, and I actually have an FMLA on file but for eldercare assistance. I have actually thought about invoking that to spend more time helping out while giving myself a break. It may become necessary regardless of what I decide in the coming weeks or months anyway.

          Reply ↓
    3. Tio*

      You can’t recover from burnout while still burning. If the things causing the burnout – bad management, heavy workload, emotional stress – are still there, you’re never going to get out of the cycle. If you can fix these aspects, you may be able to recover in the company, but you would also need some time off and the ability to slow down a bit. Usually companies burning out people won’t provide this kind of thing.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lisa*

        Around this time last year, I was crashing and burning. There was too much to do, it always fell on me, and I couldn’t even take a day off without getting hit with questions and having to put out fires. I nearly quit because I just couldn’t take it anymore. I finally got the approval to elevate one of my direct reports to take on a chunk of my responsibilities, and he has, as predicted, absolutely thrived in the role. This let me focus on getting in a couple more team members and getting them up to speed, as well as focusing on the more strategic aspects of my role.

        So I agree, IF things change, the burnout can go away. But even then, it can leave scars. I am still a little shorter-tempered than I like to be, and there’s a part of me that is still just tired of the job. But we’re now in a much better position so that, if I walked out the door tomorrow, everything wouldn’t completely collapse. This is actually a smart thing for the organization, because if they lost me last fall/winter, they would have struggled. Yet far too many organizations and/or managers will feel that their job is to wring every last bit of work out of a person. They don’t care about lost job knowledge or a high turnover rate, because to them, people are interchangeable. They are often also burning the candle at both ends and probably miserable trying to keep everything running, but they often lack the self-awareness to adjust their style, or they may also be fighting the same lack of support from their bosses.

        One other thing I would suggest examining is if there are patterns in your life that led you here. I grew up in a dysfunctional home, like too many, and I have found that I tend to want to “fix” things. In some ways, this is good because I try to solve problems that are preventing the team from moving forward. But it is bad when, for example, I get it into my head that I can “fix” the relationship with the client by doing the best work and always being on top of everything, when in reality the client is not going to change as long as the same guy there is always in charge and the same guy on our end is always reacting to those changes. Part of what I’ve done since I’ve had more time to think is to ponder on my role in the situation. I was putting too much of myself into my job and hoping for something to change, not because it was expected of me by overbearing managers, but because I was playing out my childhood fantasy of being good enough that I could somehow fix the dysfunction in my family. So I’m working to continuously remind myself that, while I can fix individual problems, I cannot change what the client does, nor how our client POC reacts to the client’s demands.

        I couldn’t reflect on any of this while burned out, because I was just too stressed and frantic and exhausted, of course. So if you don’t see anything at your work changing to support you, I highly recommend you find another place where you can still be doing good work with good people, but in a way that lets you disconnect so you can focus on yourself and what really matters to you. Burning yourself out won’t give you whatever elusive thing you’re missing in life. But especially if you haven’t identified and dealt with that elusive missing piece, you’re more likely to fall into the same trap again. So whether it’s at a new job or at a changed job, make sure to give yourself the room to think about what stories you were telling yourself about why it was okay to burn yourself out. Are you always the one that has to fix things? Do you not want to disappoint people by being seen as a failure who quits? Does your need to gain approval from others trump your need to care for yourself? Don’t risk falling into the same trap that you set for yourself. It can really help with maintaining boundaries like “Sorry, I can’t stay late tonight, I have a prior commitment” if you aren’t also telling yourself that people are going to hate you if you don’t stay late with them even though you’re so tired you need toothpicks to prop your eyelids open.

        Best of luck!

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        1. Cherry Ames*

          Lia posted: “So whether it’s at a new job or at a changed job, make sure to give yourself the room to think about what stories you were telling yourself about why it was okay to burn yourself out. Are you always the one that has to fix things? Do you not want to disappoint people by being seen as a failure who quits? Does your need to gain approval from others trump your need to care for yourself?”

          THIS WAS AWESOME! THANK YOU FOR PUTTING THIS INTO WORDS, ESPECIALLY THE PART I FLAGGED ABOVE. Been there, done that and have moved beyond it to a better place!!!!

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        4. Helmac*

          Oh, there is no question that I am a recovering people pleaser, and that is part of how this got so bad. At my last job, one of my co-workers called us the “Trojan workhorses” because we were so quietly productive that more and more projects would just get handed to us to manage. I’ve definitely been rewarded for this in my current job, and the leadership folks know how much I do, so it’s not unappreciated. But, at this point I am turning down promotion opportunities and just begging to go back to being more of an individual contributor so I have more control over my time and workload, both the amount and what I’m working on. It hasn’t always been this bad, but it’s been this bad for more than four years, and I’m just so tired of being the Trojan workhorse.

          Reply ↓
      2. Isabel Archer*

        Seconding this. You really have to put out the fire. If you can afford to do it, do it. I made the same judgment call earlier this year. Left a job that had burned me out to the point where I was questioning my own competence, dreading every work day, crying weekly, etc. Not only was this an awful mental state on its own, but you can’t look for a new job in that mental state either.

        Reply ↓
        1. Helmac*

          Yes, exactly! Questioning my own competence, knowing that I’m dropping balls and doing a crap job on projects because there are just TOO MANY PROJECTS, and eventually that starts to feel like who you are. That was the part when it really clicked for me, this is burnout.

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      3. Ama*

        Yeah I have to say I was burning out at my last nonprofit job by the end of 2019 — and then of course the pandemic made me hesitant to leave (that org ended up being more stable than many were during 2020-2021) and just made my burn out worse. I spent years trying to work with my bosses to reconfigure my workload which helped a tiny bit (in that I at least was pulled back from the edge of feeling like I was constantly fighting the urge to just quit on the spot at any moment). BUT it also made me realize that leadership at that org was never going to commit to anything that would truly fix the situation; metaphorically they were fine with just putting out the regular fires around my position with water buckets and wouldn’t accept that if they committed to the cost and effort of installing a sprinkler system they could stop the fires as soon as they started.

        I figured this out in roughly 2022 and also realized that just moving to another position in the nonprofit sector was unlikely to fix my burnout at this point. So I spent most of the next two years laying groundwork to move to a freelance career and left my position this past June — fully knowing that I would likely be underemployed for the next 6-12 months as I grew my client base, but that was also part of the intention, to give myself space to breathe and not just be yanked from one high-intensity career path to another. (I am also extremely lucky to have a spouse with a full-time job who was maybe even more eager to see me leave my previous job than I was and a lot of savings to allow me this kind of space.)

        I have been spending a lot of the last couple of weeks particularly (this would have been the peak of my busy period at my former job), thinking about how quiet it is in my head now. I’m sleeping better. I’m not constantly worried that I’m so overloaded I’ve forgotten something important. I’m more present when I spend time with my spouse and my friends, and maybe most importantly in the professional sense, I’m excited about taking on new projects and thinking of ways to expand my freelance business instead of feeling a sense of dread about how much work it’s going to be.

        Reply ↓
        1. Helmac*

          Being more quiet in my own head sounds like a very important goal to set! I mentioned upthread that I recently was able to take some time for remote work to help out with a family medical situation, and even though that was stressful in itself, I could feel my whole nervous system getting calmer being out of the office (and out of the city and traffic). And I was so productive during that time! Honestly, it was using that time to get my arms around a huge backlog of work that made me feel like it was even possible to get past the burnout.

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    4. JR17*

      Alison posted a really interesting piece about burnout within the past few weeks. (The title is something like, “The one weird trick that cured my burnout.”) Her basic thesis was that sometimes, doing less work isn’t the answer (assuming you have baseline reasonable time off, etc.). Instead, she recommended engaging in a hobby, side project, etc that has nothing to do with your day job, that uses different pathways in your brain. As you know, jobs in philanthropy are hard to come by – if you don’t hate yours and want to keep working in grantmaking, I personally would try pretty hard to find other ways to address the burnout besides leaving (unless you have another exciting job lined up).

      Reply ↓
    5. Jeneral*

      I’m in a very similar place and also trying to decide what to do. Small tweaks in how I approach work, hobbies that are very different from work, and letting balls dropped have helped a lot. On the bigger picture issue of whether to change fields, I’m still stuck.

      Reply ↓
      1. Helmac*

        Yes to letting balls drop! Sometimes lately I see everyone swarming in response to an inquiry or request for help that comes in, and I just…don’t respond to the email chain and quietly file it away. I figure if my input or assistance is really needed after it’s been tossed around, someone will let me know more specifically. What are there any other small tweaks that worked well for you?

        Reply ↓
      1. Helmac*

        100% Technically we are supposed to be eligible for a sabbatical to pursue a research project or something like that, but I don’t know what it would take to access it. But, I could take much more of my PTO for a number of self-administered sabbaticals, and maybe I can frame it that way to my own self!

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    7. MissBliss*

      Oh no, are you me?

      I don’t have the answer for you, but what I’m doing is taking a few weeks of paid medical leave. My doctors have signed off on it and I’m putting in the request to the government. My employer gets no choice in the matter. I think I am too far gone to stay at this org, but I want to stay in the field, and I deserve time to recover from the harm my job has caused.

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    8. Hermione Danger*

      I recommend Fried: The Burnout Podcast. She’s also got a really supportive Facebook group. She addresses all kinds of aspects of burnout and brings on tons of experts in different fields. In November of 2022 (I think, but it might have been October), she had an episode specifically about how to deal with burnout if you can’t leave your job. She’s also been addressing it again in more recent episodes as well.

      Reply ↓
    9. boomerang jane*

      Technically, yes, but it only because I quit and then went back to my old job several years later. I had a couple different jobs and improvements were made at the old place in the intervening time.

      Reply ↓
      1. Helmac*

        Yes, we do! I’ve never used them, though. When you say “a few sessions,” what actually happens in sessions with EAP?

        Reply ↓
  7. WheresMyPen*

    Would you rather…

    Have a boring, repetitive job at a company whose values, purpose and products you really admire, align with and enjoy, or have a more interesting job at a company you’re indifferent to?

    Reply ↓
    1. CherryBlossom*

      Boring and repetitive for me! I’m one of those people that likes every day at work to be the same, so I know exactly what’s expected of me.

      I tend to be pretty detached from any job I have, but if it’s a good job with good values, I see that as more of a bonus than an “must-have”.

      Reply ↓
      1. goddessoftransitory*

        And I’m assuming “indifferent to” means “not my personal passion,” as opposed to morally reprehensible.

        Reply ↓
    4. Bitte Meddler*

      Is there a pay differential? How about hours required to be butts-in-seats?

      If those two things are equal, then I’d rather have the more interesting job, for the sake of my sanity.

      Reply ↓
      1. goddessoftransitory*

        This was harder for me to answer than I thought because I associate “fun interesting job” with “waiting for the other shoe to drop;” either I’ll mess up and get fired or the job itself will end and I’ll have to start over.

        With boring/repetitive work, though, as long as it’s not so numbing you’d drill into your own skull for a change of pace, I find it’s very secure since most people don’t want/want to think about a boring job badly enough to bother with you unless you burn the entire building down.

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    5. amoeba*

      Interesting job, for sure. The only way I might possibly pick a) would be if it could potentially be a steppingstone for an interesting job with that company, but even then – not longer than a few months or so, honestly. (I might find it even more frustrating to have a boring job in a company where other people get to do cool things all day!)

      Reply ↓
      1. WheresMyPen*

        This is my problem really. When I joined my job I had the fun, creative role but due to structural changes I now have the more boring, repetitive one (with occasional fun and creativity) but work alongside the people who still have the fun job and am a bit jealous that they still get to (and it can’t change as it’s related to native language skills). But when I think of leaving I feel sad I won’t get to be a part of the awesome things we create and it makes me second-guess the job search.

        Reply ↓
        1. amoeba*

          I mean, as long as it’s not super urgent, you could start by only looking at interesting jobs at other companies that are also (at least a bit) cool? If there’s really nothing, sure, you’ll have to compromise, but who knows!

          Reply ↓
          1. Banana Pyjamas*

            I think this is the approach. You don’t need to change, so only consider what’s truly interesting. In the meantime, mindset matters. What’s a benefit of the change? What can you focus on now?

            Example I was restructured from a high level IC to an entry level role. One benefit was that I got to spend more time away from difficult personalities. No higher responsibility made it incredibly easy to stop thinking about work at the end of the day and focus on my personal goals.

            IME being restructured to a lower role is a yellow flag, and you should continue job searching.

            Reply ↓
      1. Paint N Drip*

        Agreed. Maybe it’s just the ADHD but all jobs are boring after about 6 months anyway, to be bored and aligned with my values is a win

        Reply ↓
    7. Potato Potato*

      Idk about “interesting”, but I’ve got a satisfying job at a company I’m indifferent to. And the pay is good enough so that money isn’t a stressor. I think this is perfect.

      Reply ↓
    8. Your credit's fine Mr Torrance*

      I don’t think this can be answered without knowing salary, hours, who’s your boss, and other factors

      Reply ↓
      1. Antilles*

        For purposes of the hypothetical, I think we should assume that everything else is equal, because those other factors are usually far more relevant than “is my job super interesting or kind of boring”.

        Reply ↓
        1. Your credit's fine Mr Torrance*

          In that case I’d go interesting but indifferent. I’ve had boring, repetitive jobs and they are awful

          Reply ↓
      2. WheresMyPen*

        The new interesting job is a hypothetical, but for the purposes of this debate I’ll say that pay, hours etc. would be fairly similar as I wouldn’t compromise on those

        Reply ↓
        1. Your credit's fine Mr Torrance*

          Everyone might feel differently on this one. Personally I’ve had a couple of boring, repetitive jobs and it was like torture at times.

          I’d choose interesting but indifferent all day

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    13. Antilles*

      All else being equal (e.g., benefits, how they treat employees, money, etc), I’ll take the more interesting job.
      How boring/interesting my job is affects me 200+ days a year. Whether I deeply agree with the company’s mission or are indifferent to it is something that I might think of occasionally, but really won’t be affecting my life.

      Reply ↓
    14. Blue Pen*

      Boring and repetitive. When I was younger, I would’ve probably said the latter. But now that I’m in a different stage of life and my relationship to work is no longer what it used to be (unhealthy, the basis of my identity), the former by a country mile.

      Reply ↓
    15. Aggretsuko*

      The more interesting job, for sure. That’s about my current job–I don’t feel strongly about the organization’s mission per se, but I like what I work on.

      Reply ↓
    16. Generic Name*

      Interesting job at a company I’m indifferent to.

      I get bored easily, and having a repetitive job would be bad for my mental health.

      Reply ↓
    17. Pi314*

      I’m struggling with a version of this myself. I’ve had jobs where I cared very deeply about the organization’s mission, but ultimately got burned out due to toxic workplaces, low pay, and/or feeling too much pressure to solve all the world’s problems with limited resources. After experiences like that all I wanted was a job that paid decently with good work life balance… but I’m also finding that it’s hard to stay engaged and motivated when I don’t buy in to the mission. Somewhere out there is a job in the middle ground!

      Reply ↓
    19. Stunt Apple Breeder*

      I like a balance. I need stimulating work that lets me be creative. I can do repetitive things for _a while_ but need to shift to a different task eventually. The nature of my work is seasonal, so I do the same tasks for a few weeks at the same time every year. The creative parts punctuate the pipeline parts of my job.

      Reply ↓
    20. not nice, don't care*

      Boring please. I had lots of interesting jobs when I was young enough to recover better from ‘interesting’ bosses and business models. Now I just want to make my rent and go tf home at the end of the day.

      Reply ↓
    21. Lady Danbury*

      All things being equal, I’ll take the more interesting job any day. Me being consistently bored at work is a recipe for disaster. That’s why I prefer in house generalist legal roles, because there’s always something different coming across my desk and I’m always learning something new.

      Reply ↓
    22. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Indifference isn’t the worst thing in the world. And admiration is also not the best thing in the world. You’re focusing on the wrong thing.

      Chose a job based on the work, pay/benefits, culture, etc. Yes, the company itself is important, but there’s a big difference between being indifferent about a company and the company being actively evil.

      Reply ↓
    23. Cordelia*

      interesting job at a company I’m indifferent to (it would be different if I felt negatively about their values and products). Having an interesting job is something I value. I can make sure I am doing other things in my spare time that help me live my values, and buy from companies whose products and purpose I admire, but I don’t want to be bored at work. Also, if I’m bored at work I slack off, and this is not how I want to live

      Reply ↓
    25. Pillow Castle*

      Interesting, but indifferent. I thought I would be the type of person who would be fine if my job was boring as long as I was paid well. At a recent job, due to a restructuring, a lot of my interesting job duties were dropped. While this was essentially a demotion, my title and pay remained the same and I was so, so bored every day and it was driving me crazy. I ended up leaving for another job.

      I would take boring in a good environment over interesting in a bad environment, though (and then be looking).

      Reply ↓
    26. Cedrus Libani*

      I would take the interesting job.

      Yes, I’ve worked in boring, repetitive jobs. (Great Recession…as a 2008 grad, I took what I could get.) It’s honestly not that bad. You get good at it quickly, and then it’s kind of Zen; you turn off the monkey mind and just do.

      I’ve also worked an interesting job where was genuinely morally uncomfortable about what I was doing. Again, I was in my early 20s, the economy was on fire, and it was my way out of a lifetime of serious underemployment. No regrets, but…ugh. I wouldn’t do it again unless truly desperate.

      That said, I’ve found that the “mission” of a job is something that lives in the back of my head; it’s there, but I’m not thinking about it 24/7. The main “boring” job I had was in cancer research. Did I wake up glowing with excitement, ready for a brand new day kicking cancer’s sorry butt? Honestly, no. I spent a lot more time thinking about the work – socially useful, but objectively you could hire an eight year old instead, you’d have to fudge the paperwork but they’d be just as good as the job. Maybe this is just my life now. My MIT degree will never be worth the paper it was printed on, never mind the duffel bag of large-denomination paper they charged me to get it. But I’m curing cancer, so…it could be worse? It wasn’t all that different from the similarly boring short-term jobs that didn’t have a warm fuzzy mission attached.

      I have an interesting job now, and I get a lot of satisfaction from doing it well. (Yeah, that was my project. Most people couldn’t have done it. Insert swagger here.) It’s not my identity; I have a family and hobbies, I value work-life balance, but work takes up a fair portion of my life and I’d like to be proud of what I do there. I also think that what I work on is useful, if not world changing – but I could deal with feeling “indifferent” towards the product itself with only a modest loss of satisfaction.

      Reply ↓
    27. Quinalla*

      Interesting but indifferent. I am not good at doing boring jobs for long stretches, short periods fine, but for a FT job, it has to be interesting!

      Values/Purpose/Products matter, but interesting matters a lot more to me.

      Reply ↓
    28. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      Boring and repetitive. I intentionally switched to doing different work to develop a specific skillset over the past two years, but it has taken place at companies whose values / purpose I don’t or barely align with at all. Although not the sole reason, it definitely contributed to how unhappy I have been.

      Reply ↓
    29. Sociology Rocks!*

      The boring repetitive job at a place I align with is where I’m currently at. In the day to day I could do with some more mental challenges and engagement at times, but I appreciate the lack of mental toll allowing me to make a lot of personal life growth in ways I’m really happy about and proud of. I am doing the best I’ve ever been and not being a being made of anxiety and stress is still a revelation sometimes. It’ll be 2 years end of this month, and I’m just now reaching the point where I really want to stretch my legs and be more engaged, which is proving to be the correct driver for finally sitting down to work on looking at grad school.

      Reply ↓
    30. RagingADHD*

      Which pays more and has better benefits and working conditions?

      As long as the work doesn’t actually violate my values but is just “meh,” then I am much more interested in my own life than in any company’s purpose or products. I did not always feel this way, probably because in my 20s I had a very malleable sense of purpose in my own life and thought the worst thing on earth was being bored or “selling out.”

      Nope. Being broke and / or overworked when you have health problems or responsibilities for others is a heckova lot worse than being bored. The job is just a means to enable my real life and priorities.

      Reply ↓
      1. RagingADHD*

        I thought further about this, and there’s more to it.

        The job that I do, and have done in the past, are very similar across pretty much any industry. The cool parts and the dull parts are pretty consistent, regardless of the company.

        So the factors that make a job interesting or boring for me don’t really have anything to do with the company’s mission or product. It’s determined by the culture and personalities of my team and department, the scope of my remit, and how much responsibility I have.

        Even when I was writing nonfiction, having an interesting topic didn’t necessarily make the job more interesting to do, if the client was a pain to work with. Trying to make a dry topic engaging and easy to follow is quite a challenge.

        Reply ↓
    31. learnedthehardway*

      My vote is for “interesting job” – I will beg, borrow or steal enthusiasm for the product/service (so long as it aligns with my ethics and is legal).

      But don’t put me in a job that is really boring and repetitive. (Honestly, a lot of my work IS repetitive. The only way I get through the grind is because there’s generally an element of the project that is new/different/interesting or because I am listening to music in the background.)

      Reply ↓
    32. not my usual self*

      I would rather have a boring, repetitive job, period, whether it was for a cause I believed in, or a cause I was indifferent about. I have an “interesting” and unpredictable job now, and it really wears me out. The caveat is that this boring, repetitive job would have to pay as much as my current challenging job. I am not sure that is possible. I used to have a boring, repetitive temp job (initial processing of a certain form at the IRS), before I got the expensive degree I needed for my current job, and I loved it so much!

      Reply ↓
  8. CherryBlossom*

    Question for people who’ve been unemployeed for a while; what “survival jobs” were you able to get?

    I’ve been looking at retail/food service jobs, but most of these places are building up for the upcoming holiday season. So, they don’t want to hire someone from a corporate background who’s just there while they look for something better.

    I’ve also tried looking at call center and customer service reps jobs, but for some reason there aren’t many in my area. Are there any other “survival jobs” out there that I don’t know about?

    Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      I’ve worked retail and gave a professional job. Those jobs are always hiring, especially this time of year with the expectation that it’s not permanent.

      Reply ↓
    3. mondaymoos*

      You’re exactly the type of person they’re looking for right now, as they’ll likely do layoffs the moment the season ends. I wouldn’t worry about this too much, honestly. A lot of them are probably holding “open house” hiring events that you show up to and immediately get an offer.

      Reply ↓
    4. OrdinaryJoe*

      Have you checked with temp agencies? When I think professional, short term jobs, that’s where my mind goes. They get someone who knows standard office norms, common programs, and can usually jump right into any job. My office has had great luck with temps for 2-8 week assignments and most seem to be from professional backgrounds who don’t want or can’t find a full time, permanent position. For example, one was a spouse of a low-level executive whose job transferred them every two years, so finding a permanent job was tough but she wanted to keep her skills up, bring money in, and interact with other adults :-)

      Reply ↓
      1. CherryBlossom*

        I am currently working with multiple temp agencies/recruiters, but I haven’t had any luck in the past few months there. Hence the need for a survival job.

        Reply ↓
      2. Busy Middle Manager*

        What type of job, specifically? I’ve been ever more skeptical of the temp agency advice over the year but especially this year. Hearing/reading too many stories of them interviewing people, then it turns out they have no jobs. I experienced that back in the day with all of the well-known agencies then heard from other people that’s a standard practice (which doesn’t make sense because surely they need to place people to get paid?). They’d interview then tell you, “well it’s slow now but when things pick up…”

        Reply ↓
      1. asterisk*

        I don’t know about OP’s area, but I know in my city, there’s a huge waiting list for DoorDash/Grubhub type jobs. A lot more people interested in driving than they have need of.

        Reply ↓
    6. PleaseNo*

      what about the physical labor area? Movers, landscapers, handyman always seem short-staffed.
      I had a friend who did a lot of work via taskrabbit.

      Reply ↓
      1. CherryBlossom*

        I wish I could! But I’m nowhere near strong enough and have a heart condition. Hence my heavy leaning towards indoor desk jobs.

        Reply ↓
        1. DawnShadow*

          Huh. I was going to suggest Doordash as well as a previous commenter, but it does have a significant amount of walking/lifting/carrying. Not so much that I can’t do it as an average woman in my fifties, but enough that a younger friend of my daughter with some physical issues is having difficulties with it.

          With gig work you would also need a reliable car to make money at it, at least in most markets.

          Honestly though, if you have a heart condition, I would also question whether you really want a retail job. Standing all day in a stressful situation was a lot harder on me than Doordash is now.

          Reply ↓
          1. Alisaurus*

            If OP is in the US and there’s an ALDI in their area hiring for cashiers, that could be an option. A lot of retail here makes people stand most of their shift, but ALDI always has chairs for their cashiers.

            Reply ↓
            1. Elizabeth West*

              They don’t just do cashiering, though; they also work around the store, unpacking goods and doing other things.

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    7. londonedit*

      That’s interesting – where I am a lot of shops will specifically take on extra staff over Christmas on a temporary basis, which is perfect for corporate people who just want to be there until they find something better! A friend of mine did exactly that a couple of years ago – she had a plan for a major lifestyle change, and as part of that she quit her job and sold her house, and worked at John Lewis (well-t0-do UK department store) for a couple of months in November/December as one of their Christmas temps. She was actually offered a permanent job at the end of it, but turned it down because she was moving on with the next part of her plan, but that was fine because it was only ever meant to be a temp thing originally. I’m surprised the retail places where you are don’t do the same thing – why would they mind having someone ‘corporate’ as a seasonal temp?

      Reply ↓
      1. CherryBlossom*

        Oh sure, retail often takes on seasonal staff, but they don’t want someone who they think might leave in November right before the holidays really kick in. At least that’s what I’ve been told.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

          You’re under no obligation to tell them you’re looking for something better. You can lie/fudge and tell them you’re looking for a change of pace or are taking a break from the job search to focus on family during the holiday season. It’s unlikely you’d use them for references in the future anyways.

          Reply ↓
          1. Alisaurus*

            Agreed. And with the amount of “normal” turnover in retail, it won’t be a big thing at all to turn around and quit if another job comes through before the holidays.

            Reply ↓
          2. Elizabeth West*

            Yep, and depending on the store, it might be less hectic than say, Walmart or the mall. My sister worked at a high-end clothing retailer when she was between jobs — it was perfect for her short-term, she’s very fashionable so it was a good fit, and she got some nice duds out of the deal with her discount.

            Reply ↓
      2. Cutecess*

        I was a Christmas elf once – very fun job! And they might not mind you looking since (as you would guess!) your contract will end on Christmas Eve, so it’s a very temporary job.

        Reply ↓
    8. Rara Avis*

      My husband did substitute teaching (but he is a trained teacher, which made it a no-brainer). But if you like kids and can tolerate a fair amount of chaos, it’s an option.

      Reply ↓
      1. DawnShadow*

        This is a good idea! Check with your state accrediting board. In my state you only need a few semesters of college credit hours (in any subject!) and a two week class that you can take from home.

        They are REALLY looking for substitute teachers ever since COVID from what I’ve heard.

        Reply ↓
        1. Aglet*

          In the 2 states I’ve looked into, you need a bachelor’s degree. Sometimes it can be hard to get jobs because they offer them to the licensed teachers who are subbing first. That was before COVID, so the need might be so high now that that’s not an issue any more.

          Reply ↓
    9. ApplyAnyway*

      I worked PT at Target while working my normal FT office job during the holiday season and they 100% expected most of us PTers to leave at the end of the season. I wouldn’t put off applying for those jobs!

      Reply ↓
        1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

          Is there a Lush storefront near you? I had a really positive seasonal work experience with them and they don’t have comission, but everyone at the store gets bonus for meeting store goals, so there’s incentive to work as a team :)

          Reply ↓
    10. FoolMeTwice*

      I don’t know the posting rules, so apologies if this is not allowed! I did contract work for Appen Worldwide when I was between jobs. It’s fine. The pay isn’t amazing but it’s steady and it is all remote.

      Reply ↓
    11. Tell your dog I say hi*

      I think it’s worth checking with your network/family/friends to see if they need any temp help. I worked as an admin at a dentist office scheduling appointments and submitting insurance claims once when I was in between jobs. I also worked as wash and fluff at a dog groomer as another in-between job (if you don’t know dogs have anal glands and don’t want to know how to clean them, this job may not be for you).

      Also, there are some school districts that are still really desperate for teachers and can get you a temporary emergency certification. In NJ (idk about other areas), that means you get a salary and full benefits on day one of the job. Obviously this only works if you can handle working with kids.

      Good luck in your search!

      Reply ↓
    12. Rach*

      A neighbor hooked me up with a job at an auction (data entry and writing descriptions). They knew up front it was temporary and had a party with fake when I found a job in my new field.

      Reply ↓
    13. Potato*

      When I was struggling with my job search earlier this year I applied to grocery stores. Never got a call back.

      I wonder if they thought customers would try to buy me :-(

      Reply ↓
      1. Paint N Drip*

        Any call center would be fine! Obviously they WANT people to stick around, but if you managed to stay a few weeks until you found a new gig that would probably be longer than others hired in your cohort :)

        Reply ↓
    15. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      I took on work at a local bakery for a while when I was between jobs. Also, seasonal retail positions when I was unemployed during the season. For the retail work, I was interviewed in September as they looked ahead to the holiday season, hired/trained in October, and worked there up until New Year’s. Would they have liked to have me for an extra 2-3 weeks? Sure, but it wasn’t a big deal and they know that the seasonal staff may leave at an inconvenient time. It’s why they hire several of them.

      Reply ↓
    17. Double A*

      Temp agency. If you live near a large university, they might even have their own temp agency; that’s what I always did.

      I’m confused about your retail comment. Someone who is only there for the short term is exactly who they’re hiring; sure, they would prefer you commit to staying through the season, but these are high turnover jobs. They know people might not.

      Reply ↓
      1. Stunt Apple Breeder*

        Second the suggestion for a university, especially if it is an ag school. The crop programs often need extra help even between harvest and planting seasons. There is a lot of data entry and prep work during this time of year and student worker availability depends on their course schedules. The two universities I worked at allowed ’emergency’ temp hires for specific timeframes.

        Reply ↓
    18. Paint N Drip*

      Do you have any manufacturing near you? Lots of those jobs are just stand in one place and do a thing over and over, and they typically hire temps thus are used to turnover. We have a few commercial bakeries near me that would love extra hands right before thanksgiving, heck the smaller bakeries probably would too (obviously use your judgment about your health when considering non-desk jobs)

      Reply ↓
    19. EA*

      There may be seasonal jobs available at airports and with airlines that would be good for someone with a corporate background. I know someone who was a part-time desk agent for a while.

      Reply ↓
    20. FirstTime*

      I was able to do some short term election work with my county when I was unemployed during an election year (state with all vote-by-mail). Definitely a short term position but they needed a lot of bodies to process ballots.

      I also did some substitute teaching for the local school district. It took me a little while to get started, but then when I got a new job I didn’t feel bad at all about just not taking any more sub jobs.

      Reply ↓
    21. Betty Spaghetti*

      If you’re comfortable with animals, petsitting! Especially with the holidays coming up, there is and will be huge demand. You can sign up with a local company or do it yourself through an online provider like Rover.

      Reply ↓
    22. RM*

      – Substitute teaching – K12, preschool, or daycare
      – My school district also has positions for substitute lunch monitors, bus drivers, and others. They also list temporary jobs (semester-long coverage, it looks like?) for various non-teaching support functions in the cafeteria, office, bus, janitorial, etc.
      – Walking or bus tour companies if that’s a thing in your area
      – Housesitting/pet care apps or local companies
      – Canvassing jobs where you cheerfully bother people on the street to give to nonprofits or sign petitions
      – Catering or event companies who don’t want to disappoint people who need a long term job. You can keep working weekends even if you get hired for a M-F immediately.
      – Election season or election day workers – our county has some pre-election call center and clerical workers. Your County government may be hiring other temporary positions as well.

      Reply ↓
    23. Banana Pyjamas*

      I managed concessions for a children’s baseball league between jobs. It was perfect for job searching because the hours were weeknights 5pm-10pm and weekend doubles. Autumn baseball should be coming to a close but football, lacrosse and hockey should all be going.

      Reply ↓
    24. Qwerty*

      I’ve had family members do well with stocking shelves as holiday hires. I think they offered to be very flexible on which shift which may have helped. Their corporate background meant they cared about doing the process well and efficiently. One got hired on to stay post-holiday because they were so efficient and hard working during the season. The other I think was kept until the last round of holiday workers left for similar reasons.

      Reply ↓
    25. SomePeopleCant*

      You may not be able to get a survival job, depending on your background. I’ve never been able to get one. Many places won’t hire someone used to getting paid more, or who they perceive as likely used to it. Many won’t hire people they don’t expect to stay or think will leave for a better offer. Many won’t hire people they think will be bored with the work. Many won’t hire people who haven’t done that exact job before.

      What you likely can do is get contracts in a field at least somewhat similar to your former employment even if you prefer full time regular employment.

      Now, these may still be difficult and most have competitive application processes, but it’s often a better/more effective avenue than trying to get a true survival job.

      I was out of work for 19 months after my 9/11 layoff. I had another year in the 2010s where I worked a total of three weeks. I’ve also had years where I worked all year but in four different contracts. And, when I can get them, full time jobs.

      I build up as much savings as I can while working and live off it when I’m not. That’s just the way it is. I have too much education and too much experience to get hired by most survival jobs (I’ve tried all sorts) and no work experience or way to explain my life if I take the stuff that prevents me from getting survival jobs off my resume.

      Reply ↓
    26. Retirednow*

      If you’re willing to take a retail job and be laid off in January, I don’t see why someone wouldn’t hire you? You might focus on the fact that you’re looking for something for the next few months and if it lasts longer great, but if not, that would be OK. That would certainly tide you over.

      Reply ↓
    27. Chirpy*

      Temporary holiday retail is exactly what most companies are looking for right now! They actually do want extra people just for now through the beginning of January. My store typically hires extra cashiers, occasionally floor department. (and I do mean “now”, our first holiday season sale is tomorrow.)

      It’s been a long time since I did food service, but most places aren’t busy enough in fall/winter to hire extra temporary people.

      Reply ↓
  9. Sleepiest Girl Out Here*

    As a manager, do any of you track your employee’s time off? I was talking to my manager and she was asking me how much time remaining my team had off for the year and I didn’t even know how to find it in our system. For context, we have a generous vacation policy (for the US) at 4 weeks for the first 4 years, which includes both of my reports.

    I have a basic idea, which mostly means reminding one of them to actually take their time off, but I’ve always thought of that as an “you’re an adult I trust you to track it” thing.

    I can see arguments either way for tracking or not so I was curious what people thought.

    Reply ↓
    1. Anecdata*

      Even when I’ve been at tiny companies, our payroll tech has tracked this automatically. Or do you mean, should a manager always know their reports balances off hand (as opposed to, knows where to go look it up)?

      Reply ↓
      1. Sleepiest Girl Out Here*

        Haha part of my frustration I think is our arcane software that’s poorly organized so finding anything takes me a while. But what I mean more is do I have an idea offhand and/or should I be periodically checking it.

        Reply ↓
        1. anonymous anteater*

          I would only expect a manager to be generally aware of the extreme cases, i.e. this employee has exhausted all their leave, or this other employee is not taking enough time off. In between I don’t expect them to track this.

          Reply ↓
        2. TechWorker*

          It’s worth knowing where it is for sure – a) to catch the case where you’re approaching December and most of your team still needs to take time off in the year, so you can plan for it, and b) so you can intermittently check people are recording their PTO accurately.

          Reply ↓
    2. Somehow I Manage*

      What sort of internal timekeeping system do you have? Are they required to request it through any formal system? Or are you just approving? If you have a system internally, it is likely in there. Might be worth asking your own manager or HR to get a reminder of where that information lives. It is seen as a liability if the company is going through some sort of audit, so it should live somewhere.

      Reply ↓
    3. Snubble*

      It’s a basic expectation of management everywhere I’ve worked! Leave has to be requested ahead of time, recorded on whatever system the company uses (down to paper leave cards at one place, but recorded nonetheless), and approved by a manager. Approval is both “we can spare you for that week” and “I confirm you have enough leave left in the bank to take that time”. It’s just… a normal part of what your manager does, and part of workforce planning to know how much is left to be taken. I may not know when my team plan on taking their leave in Quarter 4, but I know we’ll be okay because I know one of them has about three days not accounted for and the other about a week and a half – so we won’t be trying to fit three weeks each into March.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sleepiest Girl Out Here*

        Thank you! The part I’m not doing is the “I confirm you have enough leave left in the bank to take that time.” I’m a newer manager so I hadn’t thought about that part and just assumed my reports were doing it. I’ll definitely add that in as a step.

        Reply ↓
        1. Bruce*

          My company has “unlimited time off” now, before that the PTO balance was on our pay stubs. I don’t remember if I could check it easily for my staff at the time, it has been a while since we switched over :-)

          Reply ↓
    4. RhinoLoose*

      as a manager I never personally tracked people’s times. the system did that. it did that because of the possibility of use-or-lose leave, so it would start sending me reminders of person A had so many leave hours left before the end of the here that they would otherwise lose if they didn’t use them. so then I would remind person A to take their leave

      Reply ↓
    5. amoeba*

      Pretty sure I could look this up in our system, although I’ve never had a reason to… (so no, I don’t track it, but I have access to the information!)

      Reply ↓
    6. Panicked*

      The only time I track it is if there is a misuse of the time off policy. Is work getting done timely? Is one person monopolizing the time off so have to cover frequently? Is the team functioning well? If everything is in line, then I don’t worry about it.

      Reply ↓
    7. Tio*

      Not day to day, but general totals periodically, yes. Help to avoid the last minute splurge spend and flag out the people who never use their time. Agree with others it should be in some kind of payroll or timecard system you’re using.

      Reply ↓
    8. Ann O’Nemity*

      We have systems to take of this. Employees and their managers can check the system to see balances. When an employee submits a time off request, the system shows me their balance when I go to approve it. If I notice that balances are getting high I will encourage employees to take off more time.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lady Danbury*

        This is how it works in my job as well. Employees are required to submit requests through the system (though they’ll often mention it informally as well), and the system keeps track of leave. Though I don’t really keep on top of how much they have left near the end of the year, because they’re allowed to roll over quite a bit and we have a culture that is very supportive of using your vacation time.

        Reply ↓
    9. Donkey Hotey*

      I’ve had one boss in twenty years who’s tracked my PTO (to the point of admonishing me for using too much to early in the year at a place that awards it annually.) Found it creepy and hand holdey. I’m a grown-up.

      Reply ↓
      1. TechWorker*

        You can ‘track PTO’ without then treating your employees like children – one isn’t a mandatory follow on of the other!

        Reply ↓
    10. londonedit*

      Not a manager, but we have an online system where we request leave, and that tells you how many hours you have left – but my manager can’t see that. Not sure whether HR could see it if they wanted to. Of course my leave requests go to my line manager for approval, and at any rate I always talk to my manager about taking leave, and we have a general conversation going on the team where people will mention still having X days to use before Christmas, or whatever. But my manager isn’t tracking my holiday – they’d have no idea how many days I have left if I asked them right now. We’re all adults and it’s up to us to use our leave as we see fit.

      Reply ↓
    11. FashionablyEvil*

      Our time reporting and payroll system tracks it–if they dip into a negative balance, we get an email notification. I otherwise leave it entirely alone–it’s a benefit employees get to use and I don’t police it.

      Reply ↓
    12. Margali*

      I’m in HR, and I send quarterly reminders to managers when their reports are getting close to maxing out on their vacation accruals, asking them to encourage their folks to use some of their vacation time.

      Reply ↓
    13. Generic Name*

      Ooh, good question! I have 3 direct reports, and no, I don’t track their time off. They are expected to clear PTO with me, but I don’t keep a spreadsheet or anything, and I don’t think I even have access to check in the system.

      Reply ↓
    15. Medium Sized Manager*

      I track it loosely to ensure they are using it before the end of the year so they don’t lose anything and to ensure they are not super negative. I don’t care about a few hours but I want them to be aware if they are negative since the company will make them pay it back if they leave.

      Reply ↓
    16. WheresMyPen*

      My manager doesn’t keep track of how many days I have specifically but around this time of year she and our HR department do remind us we have to use it before the end of the year. We have quite a good online system to show us how many we have and to request leave, so I think she probably could go into that and see how many days one of her reports has, but as far as I know she doesn’t make a habit of it.

      I’d say it’s the employees responsibility to know how many days they have but HR and managers should check in to make sure their staff are using their days and planning ahead to make sure they don’t lose any unused days

      Reply ↓
    17. Lisa*

      Our HR system lets us check. I mostly tell them to make sure they use up their leave and leave it at that. They’re adults, it’s their benefit to use or lose. If the company cares, they can track and provide reports on it to the managers. I wouldn’t want to have to repeatedly check myself. My current company wants to make sure people don’t try and take all their leave at the end of the year and that nobody is taking too much unplanned PTO to the point it’s a problem for the team. Last place I worked didn’t care. I would have had a lot of leave built up if they didn’t let us do some cash-outs and roll-overs, because I didn’t take as much time off then as I do now. (Yay getting older…)

      Reply ↓
    18. Caramel & Cheddar*

      When I managed staff, I always had a general idea, but we also got reports from HR monthly about how much time everyone had left. I didn’t have to personally track it, but it was definitely an expectation that managers were generally on top of how much their staff had taken to ensure they were taking time off and not saving it all up to take an entire month off at the end of the vacation year or whatever.

      Reply ↓
    19. Strive to Excel*

      HR systems can be really stupidly arcane. Yes, people should be tracking their own time off, but it’s your responsibility as a manager to know where the report is so that you can find it for people struggling, be able to call out if someone is taking more time than is allowed, and give your team a heads-up that they need to take all their time before the end of the year or whatever other rollover point you have.

      Reply ↓
    20. Annie*

      My current job, no one tracks my time off. My PTO is use it or lose it, but really I’m the only one that tracks it. We do have a shared excel calendar now in which we put our days off, so my manager can take a look at that and know how much time I’m using.
      But previous to that, unless they were tracking somewhere that I didn’t know of, they had no idea how much time I took off. I think they’d know if they felt it was too much time, but they never asked me. Towards the end of the year they’d say to make sure and take time off or let them know if I needed to carry some over (even though it wasn’t technically allowed).
      We just get paid the same every pay period no matter what, vacation is never separated out in our paycheck.
      I think it’s reasonable to keep track as a manager, but no need to micro-manage it if you have salaried exempt employees who may work 35 hours one week and 46 hours the next week. Obviously if it’s hourly non-exempt, then you should keep track.

      Reply ↓
    21. Helmac*

      I have to approve the timecards of my direct reports, but I only check their PTO banks when they haven’t taken any time off in a while, and I want to be sure they haven’t hit their accrual caps. If they are getting close to or have hit the limit, I encourage them to please schedule time off in the next pay period so they can keep accruing. One guy on my team is what I would call a happy workaholic–he loves the job and is always busy, but I sometimes need to remind him to take the time he’s owed!

      Reply ↓
    22. Katie*

      I have one direct report and several mo ths before our year end, I will ask what PTO she has planned and will that get her below our use it or loose it time. We then plan accordingly to get her there. Then closer to the time, we talk about it again and make arrangements as needed.

      HR does send a report towards year end of people over that threshold but I can’t see her PTO balance.

      Reply ↓
    25. JustaTech*

      ADP tracks it for us, both for individuals (so I can see how much sick and vacation time I have) and for anyone who’s time off I am approving (one person). Every two weeks anyone who approves time off or time cards gets a reminder that you have to check that each person has enough time off in the system *before* you approve their time off.

      So I’m not doing the tracking personally (I can’t even do that for myself), but I do double check in the system before I approve stuff. And if my one report wasn’t so good about actually taking her PTO I might check quarterly and say “hey, you should take some time off!” (I wish my boss would remind me to do that!)

      Reply ↓
    26. Edward Fairfax, Rochester, NY*

      Nope! The timesheet program takes care of that. I just document days off for scheduling purposes.

      Reply ↓
    27. Banana Pyjamas*

      At my jobs managers have typically checked in mid year. At one job it was more like 3rd quarter, so this is definitely the right time to be asking.

      Reply ↓
  10. Riley*

    Last week I posted asking for advice on how to talk to my manager, Marion, about taking over the lead role from my colleague, Pat, who is not giving it up.

    BLUF: I am on track (although it might be a slow track) to transition to the lead role for which I was hired.

    Everybody here is busy, which is context, not an excuse. They are also surprisingly lackadaisical. Basically, they spend all their time doing immediate tactical work, of which there is plenty, and no time on strategic work like statusing higher ups or incorporating new people.

    I’m trying to tread a line between respecting people’s time and pushing them to get me up to speed. I have a tendency to come on pretty strong, especially when I feel strongly about something, like being able to do the lead job that I was hired for. I was getting the sense that there was no urgency regarding putting me in the lead position bc they are so lackadaisical. In my mind, I had several things that I wanted to forcefully say. Asserting myself without jeopardizing the trust and relationships that I am trying to build is a struggle for me.

    I had an opportunity to talk to Marion’s manager, who I will call Blake. I was very careful with my language. Instead of saying things like, “I should already be transitioning and it’s not ok that I am not; Pat cannot hold on to this role forever by saying that I need to learn the project,” I posed questions like, “How did you see this working out? I was picturing a phased transition that would happen in parallel with my learning the project, whereas Pat wants me to learn the project before transitioning any duties.” It was a pretty long talk, but the summary is that Blake thought the transition would start immediately and didn’t know it hadn’t. Pat’s manager wants them to only work on their new role, and our director (I don’t know how many levels above us director is) has said in a large forum that Pat is no longer the go to for project work.

    So. Everybody is on board except Pat. And Pat is emphatically not on board. I’m not really any further along in transitioning, but at least higher level management is aware of the problem, and at least I know I only have a Pat problem and not a Marion or Blake problem.

    Reply ↓
      1. Riley*

        There is a cultural problem of not prioritizing anything but project work, but that’s a higher level problem, not a problem with an individual. Also, Blake and Marion have limited ability rein Pat in, bc Pat doesn’t work for them. They can talk to Pat’s manager, and if nothing changes, then we have a Pat’s manager problem in addition to a Pat problem.

        Reply ↓
    2. Mockingjay*

      I’m sorry your Pat problem isn’t resolved, but may I say how much I liked your phrasing when talking to Blake? You phrased the issue in terms of process, not personality, which is something I’ve also tried to learn myself (thank you AAM).

      Reply ↓
      1. Riley*

        I had to think about it and wordsmith it in my head. I’ve had plenty of time since I don’t see my manager very often, and it turns out he was out of the office for a couple days, so I had some wording ready when Blake stopped by.
        Honestly, the first step is being aware of your own tendencies. I know I am direct to the point that people are taken aback (spectrum here), and I have been working on that. I also know that I tend to let myself get to the eating crackers point before I say anything, and I am for sure at PEC (Pat eating crackers) so I’m working to mitigate those responses.

        Reply ↓
        1. Can everyone win?*

          PEC – Pat Eating Crackers!!! I’m so glad you’re making at least some headway. I remember from your first post everyone was not wanting to anger Pat bc of Pat’s critical role. With your progress it seems like at least it might not be YOU pissing off Pat. Hoping for another update soon.

          Reply ↓
      3. 40 Years In the Hole*

        Bottom Line Up Front (ie getting to the point/task required/decision w/o all the extraneous detail, burying the lede etc). Akin to an “Executive Summary” or TL:DR addendum to a lengthy report/post/comment.
        Widely used/beloved – nay, practically mandated – in military scenarios where timely decision-making is crucial.

        Reply ↓
    4. learnedthehardway*

      Well, now it is time to be more direct with Marion and Blake that Pat is resisting giving up control. And possibly be more assertive with Pat that while you can appreciate that they are enthusiastic about the project, it’s time for them to move on.

      Reply ↓
  11. Sick of Getting Sick*

    Our office is not cleaned. And we are now being told we must take vacation any time we are sick and are not allowed to work from home for it either. When one person gets sick we all go down.

    We have a cleaning company. They scrub the toilet, pass a rag over the sink handles. If you take a disinfectant towel to it after they go thru it comes back filthy. They might vacuum if they see some paper scraps on the floor. They push the broom from one end to the other. They fill the mop bucket once and use that water everywhere, when they mop. The offices are for a manufacturing faculty so there is a lot of unseen dirt. If you put your hand on the floor they come back filthy. We’ve complained to management and HR. Nothing changes. It’s gross and we don’t know what more to do except clean it ourselves. It’s been this way for a couple years now. Prior to that the crew they contracted with were awesome. It’s hired out. It’s enough to make a person consider leaving.

    Any thoughts????

    Reply ↓
    2. CherryBlossom*

      Would you all be able to band together as a group to submit a complaint? If all the complaints so far have been piecemeal, it may be more impactful to have a group say directly, “The way things are now are unsanitary and we don’t feel comfortable working like this and constantly getting sick. We need a new cleaning crew who will do a thorough job ASAP.”

      But there’s also a good chance that this is a classic case of “Your workplace sucks and isn’t going to change”. It may be time to look elsewhere.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sick of Getting Sick*

        That approach hasn’t worked so far. We do have a board of directors, and owners. One the BOD/Owners is the one who contracts with the cleaning company so may be futile

        Reply ↓
        1. Paint N Drip*

          I think the BOD would like to know that they’re paying for a cleaning service that isn’t up to par. Presumably at some point there was a ‘bidding war’ and this company came out 10% cheaper, now that they have the results of the change is it worth the discount? They won’t have the info to do a cost benefit analysis without your feedback SOGS! It doesn’t have to personal (you guys don’t care about us!!) but share the basic truth of it (the results are worse than the prior team and the workspace is still actively dirty when they leave)

          Reply ↓
    3. HonorBox*

      I think I’d go to management and HR as a group with filthy wipes, etc. to show them that the work is not being done. If people are getting sick because the office isn’t being cleaned, that’s a real problem.

      Point out the following: This is costing the company money in two ways. First, they’re paying for a service that isn’t being provided. Second, if people are out sick because the office is filthy, they’re losing productivity. And third, if the staff is cleaning, you’re spending your time on something they’re already paying for and not on your jobs.

      Reply ↓
    4. ThatGirl*

      Who is in charge of hiring the cleaning company? Because they need to address it ASAP. Why was that not the first step??

      Reply ↓
    6. Generic Name*

      I guess I’m less concerned that a manufacturing facility doesn’t pass the white glove test and more concerned that they seem to have revoked everyone’s sick time. Are there other signs the company is in financial distress? If you weren’t aware, accrued vacation time is considered a financial liability for the company because they must pay out the remaining balance (depending on the state, maybe??) when employees leave. To me, this sounds like they are trying to make company finances look better by getting rid of that accrued vacation. I think it’s time to update your resume and apply to other jobs. None of this is a good sign.

      Reply ↓
      3. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Thirded. If they make you take vacation when you’re sick and everyone gets sick when one person gets sick, they clearly don’t care that illness is decimating their team every time something circulates.

        Wear a mask if you can, wash your hands a lot, and polish up your resume.

        Reply ↓
        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Fourthed. At BEST this is shortsighted and morale-destroying; at worst, they’re bailing water by trying to use up vacation time on the books as quickly as possible.

          Reply ↓
    7. Juneybug*

      Are there required federal industry cleaning standards from Occupational Safety and Health Administration that would apply here?
      Or state Department of Labor and Industry?

      Reply ↓
    8. Friday Hopeful*

      I work at a cleaning company. If you, as employees, don’t like the way the cleaning is done, please tell the cleaners while they are there what you want them to do. For example – ask them to change the mop water, tell them they need to clean the floors more thoroughly, make sure they are using some kind of disinfectant on the counters, and NOT the same rag as the toilet. If you have to ask them to do it over then ask. I have to say often times they are not trained properly and aren’t really sure what else they should be doing. Also don’t be afraid to call the cleaning company and give them a list of things you want cleaned. I know its not your jobs to show them, but you are a customer, so ask for what you want.

      Reply ↓
    9. Hyaline*

      Agreeing with everyone else that the cleaning situation and your sick time situation are two entirely different things. I think you have much better chances of effecting change with IMO the more important (protecting your PTO by having sick time or flexible WFH or both) if you don’t drag the other issue into it. For one, and not to be pedantic, but while your cleaning situation is gross, it’s unlikely that most germs are actually being spread that way. It’s your colleagues coughing, breathing, and leaving their sneezes on the the stuff closest to you that’s more likely to spread most non-gastro-illnesses. The dust from the shop floor is not spreading cold and flu. Your icky floors are unsightly but probably not giving you viruses. But bigger picture, uncouple these and tackle the more important thing first–making people come in sick to work (which is what happens when they are forced to use vacation time to stay home) is why these bugs are tearing through the whole office.

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    10. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      we are now being told we must take vacation any time we are sick and are not allowed to work from home for it either

      Difficult to tell without more info if they decided to trying to cut expenditure on sick pay – maybe a sign of financial problems – or just tightening up on how they want employees to work.

      What was the previous situation:

      – Did you used to have they sick leave which they have now taken away, or did you never have any but they didn’t tell you to stay home if sick ?

      – Did you used to be able to wfh if sick? If so, did people use this as an excuse to wfh more than TPTB wanted?

      Reply ↓
  12. PleaseNo*

    how do you be assertive at work? my boss spoke terribly to me a few weeks ago (accusing me of having a problem with authority when I tried to ask for clarification on something my interim manager told us to do) in our last 1-on-1 meeting, and our next one is on Monday. I want to stand up for myself in the meeting (I do my job, I think I do it well, and I certainly don’t have a history of any authority issues!) but I’m also really worried that it could work against me because he does have the power to fire me!

    so how would you handle this particular situation? can anyone share any stories of being assertive with their boss at their own places and it worked out successfully? why do you think it was successful?

    Reply ↓
      2. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

        I am very context-oriented, and I get this reaction if the reason I am asking for clarification is along the lines of “why was this done this way?” or “why are we doing it this way?” It has to be asked in just the right way, with the right tone of voice, to not come across as questioning authority. The most recent time this occurred was when my department had a change in directors, and I hadn’t made that clear to the new one. I have reached the point that I make it clear to new managers and coworkers up front that the need for context is why I ask this question so much!

        OP, is there a way you can ask this boss, “I’m concerned that asking for clarification on X procedure / project came across as questioning authority. What would be a better way to make my intentions clear to you when I need clarification on something? I want / need to know how best to approach you so I can continue doing X efficiently / effectively?” (example: serving customers efficiently).
        I like Great Frogs of Literature’s wording here, too!

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    2. Great Frogs of Literature*

      The reasonable approach is something like, “I’ve been thinking about what you said last week in response to my question about X. I thought it was a normal clarifying question, and I didn’t understand the answer, but you said Y, and now I’m doubting myself. Can you help me understand why my question what problematic, and what I should have done instead?”

      But the anecdote you shared doesn’t really make me confident that this is a place where the reasonable approach will work; you may just get yourself further branded as anti-authority.

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      1. Kay*

        I would also add that OP may want to clarify that they don’t have an issue with authority. Perhaps adding on the end a little bit to say “because I would never to come across as having issue with authority” – because even if we do have an issue with authority, we almost always want to make sure we hide it!

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      2. PleaseNo*

        that is along the same lines that I have been brainstorming as well. i’ll solidify mynpoints this weekend (i’m not the best off-the-cuff person).
        I still want to say something to him. because, as we’ve heard many times, the standard that you don’t speak up against is the standard that you accept. and it’s not acceptable to accuse me of such things and treat me so poorly.

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    3. Bitte Meddler*

      I had a similar boss. He never used the words “you have a problem with authority” but he accused me of all kinds of stuff that could fall under an umbrella of that name.

      He worked out of our corporate offices in one state and I needed to be butt-in-seats in one of the satellite locations in my state. The one I was assigned to was a 1.5-2.0 hour drive from my house (this was not disclosed to me in the entire interviewing process), but he said if I could find a location closer to my house with an open desk, I was welcome to show up there five days a week.

      I sent an email to the person who manages office space for my region, asking for an open desk “…at a location closer to [my home address] than [location 1.5 hours away].”

      My manager somehow saw that as me being insubordinate. The more I tried to explain that I was only trying to not waste the person’s time — because if they’d told me there was a desk at the place I was already assigned, then I’d have to write him again and clarify — the more my manager dug in his heels about me somehow trying to usurp his authority. Asking him what he would have preferred me to do just made him angrier.

      There were a bunch of other things like that, and no amount of diplomacy on my part ala Ask a Manager changed anything.

      I was at that job for only 10 months, setting my last day to be the day after my annual bonus was locked in and couldn’t be changed.

      So, in my experience, when someone tells you that you have a problem with authority, it’s time to start looking for a new job.

      Reply ↓
      1. PleaseNo*

        he’s been fine otherwise. his comment that day really came out of nowhere and I want to be clear that i do my job (i’m good at it) and wtf. Houston experienced manager, so there is no excuse on his end for yelling at me enough so I cried

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    5. Hyaline*

      If someone speaks to his employees without respect or assumes the worst of them, asserting yourself probably won’t solve that. His accusation was off-base and sounds like he was oddly defensive instead of just providing clarification–your being more assertive isn’t going to change that. You might have some success in terms of day-to-day functioning in your job by just keeping your cool and calmly re-orienting him toward your requests and needs (“No issue at all with following your lead, Mr. Bosspants; I just need some clarification on whether we should be following the Leopard Protocol or the Jaguar Method here.”), but I would not expect to retrain him away from what sounds like an abrasive, reactionary, and overall poor management communication pattern. The better you’re able to let it roll off your back and just get your job done the better, until you can find a boss who doesn’t demean his employees.

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    6. TheBunny*

      Step 1 is to really ask yourself why this was the response from your manager.

      Have you asked the same question 9 times? Did you make it clear you didn’t agree and asked again? Was there anything YOU did to make this go south?

      If you can honestly say no…I would take an “I’d like to clear the air” approach.

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      1. PleaseNo*

        those are also the same things I asked myself after the meeting! I was really taking a back by his leap to that particular conclusion because I don’t have a history of that sort of thing and in our previous talks he was a perfectly reasonable human being and manager.

        the only thing I can think of is maybe I didn’t phrase it properly, but a good manager would be able to handle that in a decent way. I have been a manager in the past and I definitely would not have done what he did

        Reply ↓
        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Honestly, it sounds like he was taking something totally unrelated out on you, if he just suddenly did that and was harsh enough to make you cry! That’s really inexcusable if that’s the situation; it’s one thing to snap, quite another to keep going until you’ve upset your report to that extent.

          Obviously I’m blue skying this, but if he really is normally a fine manager and nothing like this has happened before you’re completely justified in seeking clarification.

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    7. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Did you ask how to do a task, or why you should do the task?

      If the former, he’s ridiculous and being a bad manager.
      If the latter, even if you are just someone who likes more context – and ask this kind of thing often – it could give the impression you are trying to either avoid some tasks, or pushing back on the manager giving you work. It can irritate even a reasonable manager if someone is frequently asking why when asked to do things, or as a one-off if they were under time stress and wanted you to get on with the work.

      In either case, I suggest you explain asap – briefly – why you asked.

      Reply ↓
      1. PleaseNo*

        it was definitely more along the lines of why. the interim manager had said I should make task B a priority over task A and I was asking why when our primary focus is task A in our customers know us and relying us to do task A. I was also hoping to get the understanding that they/we were prepared to handle the fallout from our customers for not putting task A first. and I had brought this up to the interim manager, but he wasn’t understanding me and was rather dismissive. so I thought I would ask this guy, who is the boss according to HR even though he doesn’t handle the day-to-day stuff.

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  13. Blue Pen*

    TL;DR: How to stay sane when an employer says a job offer is coming in a few weeks

    For the last few months, my husband has been interviewing for a position with my employer, which isn’t an issue for either of us. (The employer is gigantic—thousands of employees—and we would literally never work together, much less cross paths with one another ever. Our divisions are pretty much Westeros and Essos, and we wouldn’t even be in the same building together.)

    The hiring manager (HM) has been forthright with him throughout, keeping him informed about their timeline and being very responsive to his TY/follow-up communication. They spoke this week, and the HM let him know that he’s their first choice and he can expect a formal offer from them in a few weeks. The HM also asked him to reach back out if he hasn’t heard from HR by X date.

    None of this is much of a surprise, and the timeline tracks with what my husband was told early on in the interview process.

    But now that we’re here, it’s hard to sit still! And while neither of us have any reason to believe this won’t land, I know a lot can happen between now and then. We haven’t seen a formal (written) offer come through, and I’m of the mind that the job isn’t yours until it’s yours, but I’ve also never dealt with a long hiring process like this one. I want him to be proud of himself for getting to this point, but I totally understand why he’s reticent to invest too much into it until he signs on the dotted line.

    I should note my husband really wants this job, so while he will continue to keep his ear to the ground for other opportunities, he pretty much knows he’ll be accepting this one—he knows what the salary is and, since I already work here, what the benefits package will be.

    I would love to know if you or someone you know has been through a long hiring process like this, and if there’s anything else he should be doing or preparing to keep sane until the offer comes in. Thanks!

    Reply ↓
    1. peter b*

      My company is also large and has egregiously long hiring timelines, which was a constant annoyance when I was an admin and involved in prepping for onboarding. Truthfully, there wasn’t anything a candidate could do – it was a genuine waiting game which only HR could control, and they move slow. If the HM is being communicative, it speaks well of them but also that this is normal. Best of luck with waiting, it’s tough!

      Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      If this job doesn’t come through for whatever reason, is your husband fine staying at his current job and casually keeping an eye out for other opportunities? Or would he start a more robust job search? If it’s the latter, he can start his bigger search now. Most likely he’ll get the job he wants, and nothing will come of any applications he sends between now and getting the offer, but it’ll keep him busy and give him something to focus on that isn’t just waiting. And if for whatever reason he doesn’t get the job at your current employer, he’s got a head start on the rest of the job search.

      If it’s the first option (happy to stay where he is), are there things the two of you can do in your personal life? Go bowling, go out to dinner with friends, go to the movies, etc. Go do something non-job-related that you can look forward to, will hold your attention for a few hours, and give you something to talk about afterwards.

      Reply ↓
      1. Blue Pen*

        He’s ready to leave his current position, so I think it’s more of the latter. I’m proud of him for keeping perspective in that, while all of this is great progress, this job isn’t quite his until it’s his. But knowing how much he wants to get out of his current company, I can’t help but feel for him right now. So close!

        Reply ↓
    3. Mad Scientist*

      This sounds incredibly similar to my current / ongoing experience with a long hiring process. It is very, very difficult to not think about it constantly. It is also very, very difficult not to mentally check out of my current job, even though I likely won’t give notice for at least another month, and even though I really want to part with my current employer on good terms (if this job fell through for some reason, I would likely stay at my current job for the foreseeable future). I’ve received an informal offer, but the timeline for the formal offer has just been dragging on and on.

      I wish I had advice, but I certainly empathize.

      Reply ↓
      1. Blue Pen*

        Yes! It’s so hard. I don’t want to speak for my husband, but I’m certain he feels the exact same way. Like I said, they’ve been super upfront and responsive throughout this entire thing, so I guess it could be a lot worse. But the longer it drags on, the more precious it becomes, and I’m worried that if something goes awry, my husband is going to be so disappointed.

        Hoping this ends soon for you and him!

        Reply ↓
        1. Mad Scientist*

          It would involve a cross-country move in my case, so we’re trying to start preparing for that while also being prepared for the (unlikely) possibility of staying where we are, and trying not to get too emotionally attached to rental properties that are available now when we don’t know exactly when we’ll actually be moving. Just so eager to have a final answer!

          Wish the best to you both as well :)

          Reply ↓
  14. Allie*

    I’ve been working at my organization for 2 years. I have a direct report, but given the organization’s structure there really isn’t any true management of the position. For reference, I am the Director of Public Policy and she is the Advocacy Manager. Anyways, my direct report and I both started around the same time and we’ve built a good relationship over the years both in and out of work. Well, I’ve been unhappy with the organization for some time, and applied for a new role with a state agency bureau that I often work with in a Public Policy role. She has some past part time experience within the agency while she was in college as well as a Masters in Public Health. Well, come to find out that we both interviewed for the position and she wants the job too. Does anyone have any good advice for how to move forward? It’s going to be two weeks before we hear anything due to the interviewer’s vacation. So I feel like it’s just lingering between us and I don’t know how to make it not awkward. Like if you were in her position, what would you want? Should I be transparent if I move into the next round? Should we just not talk about it? I’m her manager so inevitably I will probably be a reference for her. Just what do you do in this situation?

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      I had a similar experience. I was at a non-profit and applied for the director’s role when our director left. Our board president did too. We had (and still have) a friendly relationship. We talked openly about the fact that we’d both applied. She was in a role that she really enjoyed already (at a company that our org worked with throughout the year) and I’d have been very happy to have her as my boss. So we agreed that regardless of the outcome, nothing would change. The interview panel actually asked me how things would work if one or the other of us got the job, and were shocked that we’d had a conversation. They were equally as shocked when I told them that if they hired her I’d be happy to have her as my boss. I ended up with the role and literally nothing changed.

      So if you have a good relationship and both of you know that the other has applied, it is worth a conversation. Being supportive for the other and wanting the new role aren’t mutually exclusive.

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    2. amoeba*

      Would you actually be a reference for her? In most fields, including the current manager would be pretty unusual for obvious reasons. Could you otherwise also ask them to ask somebody else as you obviously have a conflict of interest? I feel like any reasonable employer would understand…

      As for the rest… I’m in a small scientific field with a small number of high-profile positions that a lot of people generally apply to. So I’d go about it the same way I have with friends/acquaintances who applied for the same jobs I did (which has happened multiple times. One time I was one of four final candidates, and two of the other ones were also from my social circle!) – in general, if you don’t make it awkward, I feel like it’s not. We’ve typically had a chat of the kind of “aah, you also applied for that one? Cool, yeah, it looked really interesting, well, good luck!” and then didn’t talk about it again until the final decision was made. At that point I was honestly fully OK with the fact that my friend got it – I mean, I would have been happier if it had been me, but at least I know I “lost” to somebody really nice and good at what they do, so I get the decision, better them than a random stranger! So basically, I went with “cool, congrats!” and that was it.

      (We are in an incredibly competitive field, so we’re all very, very used to rejections though, haha!)

      Reply ↓
    3. Strive to Excel*

      I feel like it would be fair to bow out of being a reference for conflict of interest for this one specific job, if you end up called.

      Reply ↓
    4. Friday Hopeful*

      I can’t imagine that they would call you as her reference knowing that they are also interviewing you. However if they do, make sure you understand this will also be a test of how good a manager you would be in the new role. You obviously can’t sabotage her. But if they DO call you to be her reference (if she even outs you down) then you will have to decline to say anything except her dates of employment.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hyaline*

      To clarify–you both know that the other applied, correct? I think your best bet is just transparency and generally being open and compassionate about it, but I wouldn’t talk about it much beyond a confirmation if you move into the next round or not. It seems more awkward NOT to be open about that, if you’re leaving each other guessing about it. I would air it out and probably even acknowledge the awkwardness, “I know that this is kind of a weird spot to be in, but I know we both applied for Cat Wrangler at State Agency. Please let me know if you’re selected for the next round of interviews, and I’ll do the same–I feel like it’s going to be less awkward if we tell each other than finding out through the grapevine!”

      As for being a reference–in reality, this probably wouldn’t come into play until one of you had been knocked out of the running anyway, but in theory, you probably shouldn’t be a reference if you’re both still in consideration for the job. Maybe just say that–“If I’m not in the running, I’m happy to be a reference, but if you’re asked for references before we know that, I should probably bow out in case there’s any strange perceptions about that.” (The willingness to be a reference and it being about perceived conflict of interest reinforces your goodwill toward her regardless of the outcome.)

      Reply ↓
  15. Valerie Loves Me*

    I need to change my career path. My job requires that I be on call. Part of the standard JD for jobs in my field is to handle after hours or weekend situations/events/activities. Often at a moments notice, which makes setting boundaries next to impossible — particularly when we’re talking about work-life balance. About 50% of the things I work on have short deadlines and about 25% of those can derail any plans I’ve made for my schedule. I no longer want to be a slave to email. I no longer want to fix the problems that my colleagues cause. (Which is usually where that 25% comes into play)

    I’ve been in my career for 25 years. I do not want to move up. I want to move out. But, I have no idea where to even begin assessing my strengths and weaknesses or the jobs that would support those. And I’m tired and likely have been burnt out for the past 5 years or so, but keep muddling through. With limited attention span outside of work, I need to find those baby steps that will lead me down the path to epiphany.

    And I’m old. So I need to be realistic about what my options are.

    Would welcome any advice, links, online tests, articles, heck even a short book. I just don’t have the wherewithal to even contemplate something like that Parachute book from decades ago (and don’t know if that’s still the gold standard!) HELP!

    Reply ↓
    1. Tio*

      What kind of pay are you looking for? If you want something easy and smoothly paced, look at large corps with office jobs. This will depend on what you do currently though, and I have no idea what that might be, but usually they have some version of a lot of things. But most jobs aren’t going to – or meant to – lead you to an epiphany. You have to do that yourself, possibly by having enough time to do it by taking a slow paced job.

      Also I have never heard of Parachute.

      Reply ↓
    2. Blue Pen*

      I have so much sympathy for you! My husband had to work an on-call job toward the beginning of his career, and it was just brutal—for him, especially, but for both of us and a lot of his personal relationships. It just sucks, and when you’ve hit the ceiling as it seems like you have, you’ll do anything to get out.

      A couple thoughts:
      1.) Are you certain that there’s no leeway your manager could give you or other avenue (an internal transfer within your company, for example) that would be available to you—at least for the time being?

      2.) Look over your resume and start itemizing your skills. More importantly, itemize them in such a way where they have transference across other industries. Don’t limit yourself, either. A long time ago, I used to work in publishing—author relations—with a skill set that transferred to fundraising: donor relations. I knew how to talk to people and how to sell an idea. Until someone pointed out the link, never in a million years would I have seen the parallels. Find the bridges in your skill set.

      External employees, especially those coming from different industries, are very interesting to hiring managers. You would bring an entirely new perspective to the work they do, and who knows how many ways you’d be able to enhance that work.

      3.) Consider reaching out to a temp agency or career coaching service for advice on how best to position yourself, what kind of options might be available to you that you’ve never considered, and for even more networking opportunities.

      I’m rooting for you! For someone with twenty-five years of what sounds like hard-hitting experience under your belt, I think you have a lot more working in your favor than you think you might have. Good luck, and I hope you find exactly what you’re looking for.

      Reply ↓
    3. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      My fave of those types of books is “Is Your Genius At Work?” I remember it as quite an easy read, inasmuch as it has relatable stories. Might be worth a peek.

      Reply ↓
  16. Ghosted*

    I’m worried that my intern is ghosting me!

    She was great over the summer and wanted to stay on part time during the fall, and I agreed. Even though it’s not super common in my company, I was happy to advocate for her since she did good work over the summer (better than some of our entry level hires!) But ever since she was supposed to come back to work part time… She hasn’t actually worked. She hasn’t been getting paid, either, and the tasks I’ve assigned to her are not urgent, but still, I feel like as her supervisor, I should probably do something. At a minimum, she still has a company laptop that I feel like we probably should try to retrieve.

    I empathize a lot (perhaps too much) because I remember how stressful it was to be an engineering student. And I’m ashamed to admit it, but I also ghosted an internship once when I was in college (although it was unpaid and I didn’t have any company equipment).

    I’m just not sure how to handle this because I’d really love for her to come back next summer, but in the meantime, I don’t think it makes sense to keep her on part time if she isn’t actually available. I’d rather encourage her to focus on her studies! But I also don’t want to “fire” an intern who does good work (when she’s around).

    Reply ↓
    1. ThatGirl*

      You should schedule a call with her and ask directly – don’t just guess!! Ask if she is truly able to handle some extra work this semester (and how many hours she can commit to) or if she’d like to just let this go for now and potentially come back next summer.

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        Yeah, my interns have all been pretty good about initiating conversations when they overestimated how much they could take on so we could figure out how to readjust their workload while still making it a productive experience and not burning any bridges. But sometimes, you just have to take the lead on that.

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    2. Tio*

      You need to talk to her, explain what duties she’s supposed to be doing and that they haven’t been completed, and ask why. Depending on the answer, you might ahve to tell her that this isn’t working out the way you need it to and you’ll have to ask her to turn in her equipment and wish her well in the future. But you really need a strong hand here; if she agreed to work, like an adult, you need to manage her like an adult. You shouldn’t not know where she is or why things aren’t being done. It’s not fair to her either to let her think this is an ok way to behave in the working world. But really you need to take the “new grad” piece out o it at this point – she’s an actual employee now who is failing to do their job.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ghosted*

        Yes, she has been occasionally responsive over Teams, and I briefly chatted with her in person a couple weeks ago when I happened to be on her campus for an unrelated event. It’s been less than a month since she has been back to work (remotely) so I guess I wasn’t sure how long to give her to adjust to the new schedule.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tio*

          Is your company ok with her not starting working for weeks? What was her official start date when they agreed to hire her? I’m kind of not surprised she hasn’t been responding because this all sounds very unclear on what and when you expect her to be doing things. I really think you need to set some clear expectations and timelines with her.

          Reply ↓
          1. Ghosted*

            Her official start date was at the beginning of the summer, and she was part of a cohort of full-time summer interns. I met with her a couple times towards the end of the summer to discuss her schedule for the fall, logistics, etc. which I then got approved by my grandboss and then sent out an email to the team. I then met with my intern again to confirm everything and communicate some guidelines. She took a couple weeks off after that and was supposed to start working again last month. We’ve checked in about assignments a couple times since then, but as far as I know, she hasn’t actually started working on them.

            Part of the understanding was that she would work on an as-needed basis, with maximum hours, not minimum hours. So if we didn’t have any tasks for her, she wouldn’t work. But if we did have tasks for her, she would be available for up to X hours per week.

            We have another intern in a similar situation, and sometimes it’s hard to find assignments for him (but he’s great when we do have work for him) so it doesn’t really make sense for us to require a minimum number of hours for part-time interns. In the summer, they’re full time and get paid either way, but when they’re part-time and remote, we basically just let them know when we have work for them and they do it on their own time.

            HR actually just reached out to me asking about whether or not to bring my intern back next summer, so maybe I should just reach out to them to get their input. They’re really big on interns here, so I don’t want to act too harshly without authority.

            Reply ↓
        2. Parenthesis Guy*

          Hmmm, that’s a tough spot. I get it, you don’t want to upset her because you want her back. But she can’t just hold onto the laptop forever. You have a responsibility to the company.

          I think a month is enough time for her to adjust to the new schedule. College only gets harder as classes go on. If she doesn’t adjust by then, she probably won’t.

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    4. Quinalla*

      Definitely give her a call. Totally fine to give her grace, but she needs to confirm when she can start working or that she won’t be starting working and arrange to get laptop back. I would reach out ASAP and find out what’s up, plenty of time has passed, I would say too much honestly, should have been a conversation after the first week as it sounds like it may be a flexible schedule situation.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ghosted*

        You’re right, I agree. I’ve honestly been too swamped myself to chase her down for an answer as I’ve been on the road a lot lately for different work events, but I really can’t let it go unaddressed any longer! I’m going to check in with my own boss first to check how we usually handle the laptop handoff in situations like this, but I know I’ll have to get her on the phone ASAP. I like your phrasing of wanting to confirm when she can start working.

        Reply ↓
  17. KitKat*

    A colleague and myself having a difficult time with a junior coworker. Most of the time he’s absolutely delightful, but he can be moody and the winds seem to shift on a dime.

    One day work we hand off to him is perfectly acceptable, the next day almost the exact same product is completely rejected. He rarely gives direct feedback on what the problem is or why, simply rejects things that have been submitted out of hand, without explanation. He’ll often try to change the subject or even leave the meeting. When pressed to reconsider, he goes ballistic–banging on tables, raising his voice, even throwing things (!!) There’s no other management on site who we can refer the problem to, and it’s starting to become a real drain on our time and energy.

    I should probably mention — the colleague in question is my preverbal toddler, rejecting his lovingly prepared lunch.

    Childcare is off this week so my husband and I are white knuckling it with a combination of PTO and rushing around between Zoom meetings. If anybody out here works in early childhood — THANK YOU for the work you do. It is no joke!!

    Reply ↓
    1. Not A Manager*

      Maybe he needs to go to his own private office for a while? Or there might be a project that he’s had on the back burner that he could work on? I found that if you re-submit the same work later, sometimes it’s acceptable.

      Reply ↓
    2. Pam Adams*

      Is there a canine/feline coworker who can help? I find mine are useful for eating the rejected meals and distracting junior worker.

      Reply ↓
    3. TwoFluffy*

      Oh, I can empathize. I will just say that our first child was super easy; great communication, eager-to-please, game for anything. We thought we had this figured out. We were patting ourselves on the back.

      Our second child was the opposite. Exactly as you describe. Easily frustrated, focused on what they want to do and the rest of the world can go pound sand, stubborn, and precise. This child is why they invented those kid leashes.

      All I can say is, the old cliche—this too shall pass. 2nd kiddo has eased up and become a much nicer human as communication has improved and is well on their way to being a truly fun little person.

      Reply ↓
    4. Lady Lessa*

      Thank you for the grin and smile. Sounds like you all are good parents doing your best.

      Hugs to him and adult beverages to his upper management.

      Reply ↓
    5. HoundMom*

      This may be a strange thought, but it comes from experience. I had a senior person who would reject projects that I thought I had done exactly as they wanted. My manager at the time suggested that I be consistent in returning the project at the same time of day that it was assigned. So, if it was assigned in the morning, return with the finished product in the morning. Same thought for the afternoon.

      In my case, the senior person would drink at lunch so the mindset would be different between morning and afternoon. For the record, I could not tell that he had been drinking, so I don’t know if it was to excess.

      I have followed this advice in other situations and (to my knowledge), it was not necessarily drinking, but job stress, interaction with someone, schedules. It seems to ease some of the criticisms.

      Reply ↓
    6. Oui oui oui all the way home*

      Have you heard of using sign language with toddlers so that you can communicate? It can be a game changer for parents. Google “toddler sign language” or even “baby sign language” and you will find a lot of resources.

      Reply ↓
  18. frenchblue*

    I’m in full BEC mode and I need advice. 
    I’m a manager at a nonproft. I’ve been here three years. There’s another manager, John, who’s been here for about seven years. I have no idea how John is still employed. He does not ever seem to be doing work (but instead takes long, loud, personal phone calls and watched TV shows on his phone). He regularly makes inappropriate jokes (HR made him do sensitivity training, but that just made him camouflage his jokes more). And most egregiously, he spends time every single day trying to chit-chat with literally everyone in the building. He goes around and jokes that it’s time for his daily session. He’ll literally move from desk to desk, just trying to talk about anything besides work. Most of us have our own way of handling John. I’ve never had a problem telling him I’m busy and he needs to leave. He has pretty much learned to move past my desk at this point. But I always feel awful for the younger, newer or shyer staff, who don’t always know how to shut John down. 
    My issue right now is that John thinks he is *very* funny. He says so all the time. John thinks he is so funny that he will make a joke, and then go around the entire building to tell everyone how funny his joke was and how hard the other person laughed. I wish I was exaggerating, but this happens AT LEAST twice a day. I usually say “Funny!” and then turn back to my laptop. This works in the moment, but he ALWAYS still comes to my desk to tell me another joke later. My coworker and I have tried tag-teaming, stopping him immediately to say “Is this work-related, John?” Again, this will help in the moment, but there has been absolutely no decline in the overall behavior. 
    Maybe the worst part is that John’s jokes are objectively not funny. Maybe to a 4-year-old, but not to grown adults. At all. Last week, a coworker wore a pink shirt, and John said “Pinky! Ha ha! Like the finger, get it?! Ha ha, pinky!” and then he went around and told our entire building how clever he was for coming up with that joke. This absolutely stems from John believing he is immensely smarter than everyone else (he attended a semi-prestigious university, and although many others here also attended prestigious universities, he still walks around like he’s God’s gift to the Earth). What on earth can I do here? I am in an incredibly busy season, and every single thing John does has been driving me up a wall. I feel like I’m going to start coming off angry if John keeps it up.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      If he’s good about actually leaving you alone when you tell him to leave you alone, just tell him you don’t have time to chat and probably won’t until you’ve gotten through this period. If he forgets, be honest you’re annoyed about having to repeat yourself and don’t want to have to do it again. And if that doesn’t work, go to your boss or his boss or whoever actually has the power to deal with this situation and tell them you need someone to have a word with him about not coming over and interrupting you. Because let’s face it, the real problem is that apparently no one’s willing to actually manage him.

      Reply ↓
      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Yes. And if you’re worried about junior staff not being able to tell him to knock it off, make sure that everyone who reports to you knows that you will support them in telling John that they’re too busy to talk right now.

        Reply ↓
    2. BellaStella*

      Can you keep track during a week only of the time he does this and not work, and go back to HR and flag this or to his manager, noting it is impacting your work?

      Reply ↓
    3. Katydid*

      I have a pretty intense RBF and in those situations I usually just stare blankly at someone who thinks they are funny and is not funny at all. And then say nothing and turn away or continue whatever you are doing. And if you can, talk to the newer employees and tell them they absolutely do not have to entertain John and will not get in trouble for ignoring him – I think that probably only works for those he isn’t managing. Is there no one above him who could be inundated with complaints from his direct reports that he does nothing and just tells dumb jokes all day?

      Reply ↓
      1. frenchblue*

        I’ve definitely talked to newer employees and let them know that John’s chit-chat is something they can absolutely shut down or ignore. Unfortunately, a few staffers have gone to HR, and they usually give him a quick “make sure you’re not spending too much time chatting.” He might improve for a week before he goes back to old habits. Our director is off-site probably 85% of the time, and while she’s generally a great manager, I get the feeling that she’s too busy to worry about this.

        Reply ↓
    5. Friday Hopeful*

      Pity John, as he is showing his extreme self-consciousness. As far as work is concerned, if he is doing so little that it is affecting YOUR work, then I would have to bring that to HR and make sure its about the work and not the personality.

      Reply ↓
    6. Juneybug*

      Could you “red cup” him? At my last job, if you were busy or needed to focus, you would put a red solo cup on the wall of your cubicle or any place that is obvious that you are not to be disturbed at all costs. When you are not busy, take the red cup down/hide in drawer.
      Warning – if you leave it up all the time, folks will start ignoring the cup. Which ends with them interrupting you or will stop talking to you at all.
      Explain to John why there is a red cup the first time he walks in and interrupts while you are busy.
      From that time forward, any time John walks into your area, just point to the red cup and ignore him.
      I bet everyone will love you if you pass out red cups and explain what their use is for (also provide warning not to use them 100% of the time).
      Or start sending out his resume to companies that need an extrovert (clown at circus, call center supervisor, filibuster in Congress, etc.).
      Good luck either way!

      Reply ↓
  19. Procrastination thread*

    I’ll start…
    Request for proposal- Must get done today!
    Invitations to a special event on October 21st- email (they all know about it, have to put it in writing)
    Run of show for special event.
    Blog interview answers (yep for the special event)
    My blog content.

    Reply ↓
    1. Great Frogs of Literature*

      There’s a bunch of servers (computers) I’m supposed to set up, but they aren’t working properly and I’m short on sleep and unmotivated to troubleshoot them right now.

      Reply ↓
    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Sending out follow up emails, scheduling a meeting, updating to-do list. I have been dragging my feet on all of these things for no good reason.

      Reply ↓
    3. i am a human*

      user testing for an internal app – we’re talking VERY basic user testing, the simplest of tasks. no idea why i won’t just do it.

      Reply ↓
    4. JustaTech*

      Pull two resolved comments out of a document and send it to a coworker to sign.
      It’s been sitting in my to-do box for months.
      I’m going to do it before lunch!

      Reply ↓
  20. mondaymoos*

    Update on the reference who maybe sort of said a little too much during the interview process…
    I got the job. She said my references had excellent feedback and that she felt reassured that I would be willing to stand up to managers who pushed back on the goals of the program.
    Now to give notice to my current organization and feeling insanely guilty about it…
    Thank you to all of you who responded… I guess there really is something to be said for not always being sunshine and rainbows in the reference process.

    Reply ↓
  21. When do I reach out again?*

    I applied to a job at a company, where a former coworker works. I sent in my application, and then she reached out to the hiring manager and submitted a referral through the company portal. This was this past Monday night/Tuesday morning. The last message she said to let her know when they reach out. They haven’t reach out yet, and it’s been a few days.

    So, when I worked with this coworker, I still went by my first name “Grace”, and now I go by my middle name “Teresa”. I let her know this when I first reached out to her. On the application I sent in, I put my first name as “G. Teresa”, but my last name is still the same.

    I really want this job, and I’m little worried I haven’t heard from them this week. My former coworker mentioned they’ve been super busy this week (preparing for a certain sale), but I feel like there could have been time for the hiring manager and HR to look at my resume and reach out. I’m also wondering if the first name I put of “G. Teresa” could be causing issues if it didn’t match up to the form my former coworker sent it.

    Am I being impatient? Should I reach out to my former coworker next week if I still don’t hear anything?

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t think you’ll like this answer, but don’t reach out until it’s been at least a month (November 8 or so). Hiring always takes longer than you (the job candidate) think it will and also almost always takes longer than the hiring manager thinks it will!

      If your former coworker said it’s been a busy week, that means HR and the hiring manager have probably not looked at applications/referrals at all–they’ve been doing the other parts of their jobs.

      In the meantime, can you work on other applications so you’re not thinking about this one?

      Reply ↓
    3. Lisa*

      Yeah, hiring managers are always swamped and struggle to fit reviewing resumes into their schedule. That’s why they’re hiring — too much to do! So be patient. I know it can be hard!

      Reply ↓
  22. Lily Rowan*

    I’m involved in hiring a new minister for my church, which has been fascinating — I love hiring! — and it is going well, but the strict secrecy is killing me! I can talk to other members of the committee, but that is it. (Things have to be very confidential, both for the candidates, whose current churches probably don’t know they are looking, and to manage expectations of our congregation, so folks aren’t constantly freaking out about the timeline.) Every time someone asks me how the search is going, all I can say is that it is going! (Confidentially just between us, it is going very well!! But don’t tell anyone I said that.)

    No question, just possible commiseration?

    Reply ↓
    1. Margali*

      Lots of commiseration! I was on the search committee for my church too — and we hired one right at the beginning of the Covid shutdown! It was close to a year before he got to meet the congregation in 3D, though we did organize a drive-through meet-and-greet.

      Reply ↓
    2. Your credit's fine Mr Torrance*

      I’ve been on a board of a similar organization where we were negotiating salaries for clergy – I also wanted to gossip about it but couldn’t.

      I live in a major city and this was for a head rabbi position at a large synagogue – don’t ever let anyone tell you they have to take a vow of poverty :)

      Reply ↓
      1. Lily Rowan*

        Haha! These are hard jobs, and should be paid fairly, honestly. (I say as a lifetime nonprofit worker who has worked places where outsiders were surprised to learn we aren’t all volunteers…)

        Reply ↓
        1. Your credit's fine Mr Torrance*

          Yes – I’m all for it! This guy had a truly great contract – mid six figures, car paid for, HOUSE paid for.

          Reply ↓
    3. Medium Sized Manager*

      We made a decision on an internal promotion 2 weeks ago, and HR still has not approved us offering the job, so I feel your pain! I want to shout it from the rooftops! I want the person to know how highly we think of them! I want the runner up to know how difficult they made this decision and that we are all going to push hard for their promotion in the next cycle! But alas, I must keep my mouth shut.

      Reply ↓
    4. FoolMeTwice*

      I was on the committee for my kids’ school prinicpal. It was sooo hard to keep my trap shut, esp after they made the hire. They picked my LEAST favorite candidate, but I couldn’t say a word.

      Reply ↓
    5. OrdinaryJoe*

      How interesting that it’s a secret from their current church! A friend helped with their church and anyone interviewing had to have a letter or something from their current church/pastor they were working with. It was seen as poaching or something, I guess, otherwise. It was also very expected that the … under-pastors (not sure the correct term) would be looking to move up every 2-3 years. As a result, the search committee would get random calls from the candidates church sort of advocating and doing good PR for them LOL Oh! He’s great! He did X! sort of thing :-)

      Reply ↓
    6. Retired Accountant*

      You may enjoy the book Search by Michelle Huneven. It’s a novel about a search committee for a UU church and quite good.

      Reply ↓
    7. i am a human*

      not the same really at all BUT I help direct the musical at my kids’ high school and the music director just told me what show he’s thinking for next year. I HATE keeping secrets!!

      Reply ↓
    8. Im*

      I just read “the Search”, which is about a search for a new minister. The author found the secrecy hard. It’s a good book, though, and a memoir.

      Reply ↓
  23. JustaTech*

    Looking for a gut check/ way to approach some weird communication.

    I have a coworker at another site that I’ve never met and only email/Teams with very occasionally, when his team needs me to do a technical assessment. The thing that is weird is that he always emails me as Ms Lastname. It is super not the company culture to address your coworkers as Ms or Mr Lastname – everyone is on a first name basis.
    It’s so weird that the last time I got an email from this person I thought it was from an outside sales person.
    I noticed that he seems to do it to other people (he addressed another woman on an email chain as Ms Lastname, which is extra off because she’s Dr Lastname if you’re going to use people’s titles).
    I thought he was just very formal, but he always signs his emails as “Firstname”.

    This is weird, right?

    If I thought I was only going to email him once or twice a year I would just let it go, but it feels beyond weird to get a Teams message to “Ms Lastname”. Do I just respond with “Please, call me Firstname”?

    Reply ↓
    1. Literally a Cat*

      What’s the cultural background? If it’s only directed at women, that’s definitely weird. But something I’ve noticed in multicultural work places is some people are way more Title Last Name than others. I request to be called first name, because a subtle cultural thing that Professional Title Last Name is almost always from sarcasm, while I have every reason to believe my culturally diverse colleagues came from a place of sincerity.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        We’re all Americans, but I don’t know if this person is in So Cal or the southeastern US (so, potentially big cultural difference).
        I don’t think it’s sarcastic, just weirdly stilted. It also feels super weird for me to reply to his email with “Hey Firstname,” when his email started “Ms Lastname”.

        Reply ↓
        1. Literally a Cat*

          As I’m unfamiliar with American culture, would it be considered as too blunt to request them “please call me Literally, not Mx Cat?”. I feel like it’s easier to navigate my own situation, because being perceived as narky as a junior member is something that I’m expected to coach my juniors.

          Reply ↓
    2. HonorBox*

      As a kid, I was around my dad who was addressed as Mr. Lastname by other kids. Now, I’ll just joke with someone and tell them, “please call me HonorBox because Mr. Lastname makes me think my dad is standing behind me.”

      I think just telling this guy that he’s welcome to call you “firstname” because that’s what you prefer would be the way to go.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        Yeah, since it looks like we’re going to have to do a lot more collaboration I think it’s worth asking him to call me “Firstname”. We’ll see how it goes from there.

        Reply ↓
        1. Paint N Drip*

          I think some people REALLY need the invitation to use a less formal address – he might be one of them. Shouldn’t be a big deal to ask :)

          Reply ↓
    3. Ceanothus*

      I am not very socially deft and I often refer to new people as Ms./Mr. Lastname and then sign with my first name as a (probably not very clear) signal that I’m willing to move to a first name basis if they are (my full name is in my signature block). If they write me back using my first name I will move to their first name — but there is a lovely person in IT who stuck with titles and so I am doing the same with him.

      Reply ↓
  24. K8K8*

    Any tips for addressing another worker (not coworker) in my building who walks VERY heavily?

    My office space is directly below the office of a woman who wears thick high heels every day and either cannot walk quietly in them or doesn’t realize how loud her steps are. It literally shakes the walls and rattles the lighting fixture over my desk. Granted, part of that may be to blame on the building’s construction, but one day when one of my coworkers and I had the building to ourselves, my coworker went up to the hall outside the upstairs office and walked around more and more heavily until it matched what this woman’s steps sound like. It was enough for us to say that yeah, normal walking around should not cause that sort of racket. It’s not something I can drown out with headphones and it’s very difficult to concentrate through.

    I’ve reached the point where I think I want to say something to her about it, but since I have no working relationship with this woman and I don’t want to sound like I’ve been stewing over it for as long as I have, I’m not sure specifically how to bring it up. Wording, whether I try mentioning it to her when we actually cross paths vs going up to her floor in the midst of one of her stomping sessions…what would you do if you were making this request?

    Reply ↓
    1. Oh So Very Anon*

      The only way this can reasonably change is for you to switch where you sit. Otherwise, you’re asking someone to change a very integral part of who they are. (My wife “walks heavy” and we once lived in an apartment with someone who would lose their minds every time my wife would walk down the hall. It made her not want to move.)

      Reply ↓
      1. K8K8*

        I don’t think that sounds particularly reasonable, actually. For starters because the layout of our offices doesn’t allow for a spot that isn’t affected by it. Secondly, while I may understand it can be difficult to change a subconscious habit while going about life in your own home, I believe there’s some duty of consideration due to others you share a working space with. At the very least a change of footwear would likely make a massive difference, though I wouldn’t specifically demand that of her.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tio*

          And what if she changes the footwear and nothing changes?

          Gotta say, I can’t imagine ANY footwear I could wear that would put me from “normal walking sounds” to “shaking the ceiling and lights” that didn’t have concrete blocks attached to them. I don’t think this is going to solve anything.

          Maybe, MAYBE you could say in passing to her, something like “I can hear your heels above the office, is it possible to wear something different?” but it may be off putting to her.

          Reply ↓
          1. K8K8*

            They’re very blocky high heels and it sounds like she really drives the heels into the ground with every step. If speaking to her really doesn’t change anything, then that’s probably the last straw for the whole building. I’m already using headphones to drown out the crying baby that floor’s receptionist brings in most days. At one point my boss idly suggested looking into availability of a roomier office rental, so if I can’t get anyone on that floor to compromise on their noise output then I can at least spearhead the efforts to find a new office.

            Reply ↓
            1. Tio*

              yeah, I have a pair of blocky heel shoes I love and I could probably do a full cardio workout in my office and not shake the ceiling of the office below. If you came up asked me about the ceiling shaking when I walked I would probably think that this is way more on the building itself than me, and I don’t think you’re going to get much more out of it than that. But who knows.

              Reply ↓
          2. Strive to Excel*

            Could be one of those utter weirdnesses of buildings where having a specific combination of weight, surface area, and shoe materials creates a very strong resonance loop.

            Reply ↓
        2. Be Gneiss*

          If, like Oh So Very Anon says, she’s just a heavy walker, I really think that is one of those things that you just have to learn to live with, like a person who breathes loud or sniffles because of allergies or whatever. I’m a quiet walker in a family of loud walkers, and asking someone to change how they walk – a thing that a majority of people have been doing for most of their lives – is really a lot to ask. Honestly, just the way you say you wouldn’t “specifically demand” that she change her shoes comes across as a little much. I think you have to chalk this up to one of those things, like if your building was next to the railroad tracks, or across the street from the fire station, where you just have to learn to live with a minor annoyance.

          Reply ↓
          1. K8K8*

            By “I wouldn’t specifically demand that of her” I didn’t mean that I’d be making any “demands” period. Just that specifically bringing up the high heels would seem inappropriate for any conversation that might come up. I feel like the bar for what is or isn’t “a little much” is a little much too high with the commentariat here.

            Reply ↓
            1. TechWorker*

              You are asking for people’s opinions, you can’t be too surprised if they aren’t what you want to hear :p

              Reply ↓
    3. Abigail*

      She is not walking at you.

      If pictures are indeed rattling take a video of that and show it to your manager. That shows severe structural integrity issues.

      Reply ↓
      1. RussianInTexas*

        This. I can’t imagine any office building, and I worked in a few, actually doing this regardless of any kind of footwear.
        Plus, you can’t really ask someone to change their footwear (are you going to pay for new one?), or changing the way they walk.

        Reply ↓
    4. Noquestionsplease*

      It would be mortifying to accost the upstairs walker person. Maybe you could put in a suggestion to your building management about carpeting to reduce “vibrations” or some sort of thing that’s causing your desk to wobble. Please do not bring this up with your upstairs person. It would be horribly embarrassing,

      Reply ↓
    5. ThatsLife*

      I’ve always been a heavy walker, and now I’m a heavier walker with a walker. That’s life. I’m not doing it at anyone. My dad used to say I sounded like a herd of elephants by the time I was 10. It did not improve as I hot bigger/heavier. I wasn’t doing it on purpose and my physical therapist says that’s just how I walk and not something that’s likely to ever change.

      Reply ↓
  25. Jessie R*

    I have been struggling with PMDD and for about a week each month I really struggle at work with extreme lack of motivation, depression, social anxiety, and inability to focus. I believe I hide it well and no one has mentioned anything negative–in fact, I mentioned it to one coworker and she said, “but you’re always so happy!” But still, my productivity goes way down on those weeks and I often end up taking at least some sick leave. I’m trying to work on some dietary and lifestyle changes to help overall, but does anyone else with PMDD have suggestions for how to remain focused and productive at work while dealing with symptoms, especially lack of motivation?

    Reply ↓
    1. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

      I would suggest talking to a clinician about your symptoms! There are a lot of treatments for PMDD now, such as various hormonal contraceptives approved for PMDD as well as ways to dose medications only during the luteal phase. Medication does not always have to be the answer, but there are treatments out there that might mean you don’t have to struggle as much.

      Reply ↓
      1. Paint N Drip*

        Yep! I was prescribed luteal phase only SSRI medication that really allowed me to get my feet under me when my PMDD was at it’s worst, now I’m no longer on any RX for it

        Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Talk to your doctor, but also I’d re-frame how you think about your productivity. None of us are 100% productive 100% of the time. You may have a week where your productivity goes down, but I’d wager you balance it out the other weeks where you’re feeling better. This is true for everyone, not just those with PMDD, your less productive days just happen to be concentrated in a certain way.

      Reply ↓
    3. Blue Pen*

      So much solidarity with you! I also have PMDD and while depression isn’t so much a part of my experience, it’s bad insomnia and fatigue. Because I’m so tired, it’s very hard for me to concentrate and to feel motivated throughout the workday when all I want to do is crawl into bed and sleep. Like you, I don’t think anyone has noticed—if they have, they haven’t said anything to me—but it’s awful, and I’m worried that it’s going to coincide with a big professional event like a presentation or conference that I’m going to need to be On Point for.

      Following this thread!

      Reply ↓
    4. Glitteress*

      None of the diet/lifestyle changes had a noticeable effect for me, but luteal phase SSRI medication changed my life basically overnight. I would highly recommend trying it, and honestly I think the “go easy on yourself” comments are not constructive at all. It’s not realistic (or necessary!!) to not function well at your job for 7-10 days every month.

      Reply ↓
    5. Qwerty*

      I have chronic migraines which leads to multi-day episodes where I don’t get much done. I started looking at my rolling average. Turns out I’m pretty productive on a regular day, so it evened out.

      If your bad week is on predicatable timing, you can try to line up work so you have easier stuff that week that won’t be as impacted by the symptoms and spend that week on small stuff. Being responsive to messages and giving decent estimates to when you will do the thing will also go far

      Reply ↓
  26. call me wheels*

    Question about office wear:

    So I will hopefully be starting my first proper post-university job soon and I will need to buy some work clothes. I am worried about this because ever since my hip surgery last year, it’s become quite painful to wear a lot of types of trousers. Basically any sort of stiff material I think possibly puts small pressure on where the wound was and varies from immediately hurting to getting painful after a few hours. Belts also make the issue worse, jeans I basically cannot wear. For my interview I managed to get by wearing some suit trousers with a belt for the hour I was there, but that hurt and I was in pain the rest of the day, so those sort of trousers I think I wouldn’t manage my 4 days a week in office with.

    Day to day, I pretty much only wear joggers. I tend to wear I guess you could say normal mens clothes, I know womens clothes have more variety but I wouldn’t be comfortable in a skirt or dress or more feminine cuts of trousers. The job is in person the whole time, and it’s in a 6th form college, so I guess not like a formal business environment but there are students around. Does anyone have any suggestions of what sort of trousers I could wear, if there are materials or cuts that might be softer, or if there is a way to wear essentially joggers while still being smart enough for work? I thought maybe some ND commentators might have experience with being sensitive to the sensory aspect of clothes, I don’t know.

    I might be making a big mountain out of a molehill with all this worry about clothes but my self-image esteem has already taken a big hit with having to change how I dress so it’s become a big deal in my mind. Any advice appreciated, thanks!

    Reply ↓
    1. Potato Potato*

      I’m not sure I fully understand what causes you pain, but if it’s about stiffness around the waistband here are some potential suggestions:

      1. Using hidden suspenders instead of a belt (as long as “must have a belt if you have belt loops” isn’t part of your dress code). These go under your shirt
      2. There are soft trousers with elastic waists. My fancy trousers use athletic fabric. I found them in the men’s section of a department store. If I combine them with suspenders (hidden or visible), I can even get them a size too big in the waist to increase my comfort

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon for This*

        Agree with your second point – my son is ND with sensitivity issues. He has found some athletic pants that can pass for dress pants and he does not tuck his shirt in. For a female it is pretty common to wear a shirt or shell that is not tucked in to pants. Add a jacket for a more professional look.

        Reply ↓
    2. Work wear*

      Stretchy wide leg may work well for you – I wear a number of styles from Athleta to work and find the cut/style can be dressed up with nice shoes/top/jewelry and can even be paired with a suit coat for days I need to be more formal.

      Reply ↓
    3. CanadianTechWorker*

      Would a Jumpsuit work? I’ve had some colleagues wear some ones that are very professional looking.

      In terms of joggers, it would really depend on the office environment that you’re working in. An office closer to casual you might be okay but I don’t think it’d work in a business casual office.

      Reply ↓
      1. TechWorker*

        It sounds like call me wheels is male and/or prefers dressing in men’s clothes – jumpsuits are not exactly standard men’s office wear.

        Reply ↓
        1. TechWorker*

          Not sure if you’ve searched for these things already, but ‘smart jogging trousers’ or ‘smart trousers for flight’ could be things to look for.

          Reply ↓
    4. Susan Calvin*

      I can relate about the worry – your clothing is something you can control in a new and unpredictable situation! It’s a big part of first impressions, but also feeling comfortable and confident!

      That said – I don’t know if you can really sustainably fix this without branching out a bit more. Obviously fit-and-flare dresses, A-line skirts, or tunic over leggings combo would be physically more comfortable, but would presumably put your shoulders around your ears all day.

      Would it be possible (and help at all) to go for trousers with a higher stretch (e.g., all my weight lifting friends and their massive quads swear by Pepe Jeans), or go for something where the actual waistline doesn’t hit the sensitive area, go a size up and then consult a tailor? (Tbh I recommend finding a trusted tailor to anyone. It’s probably cheaper than you think, and so worth it)

      Reply ↓
      1. Paint N Drip*

        A loose (but not aggressively oversized) super high waist may be the answer! I’m imagining a glamorous high waist pant with wide legs
        I also imagined a floor-length tunic style dress – I find that these come across actually pretty gender neutral and don’t need to be ultra femme (avoid a snatched waist or low neckline)

        Reply ↓
    5. noname today*

      Can you wear trousers without a belt? That and a tunic top or sweater that covers the waist band is what I live in—haven’t worn a belt in 5-10 years (in part because I sit at a computer all day).

      There are companies that make “yoga pants” or elastic waist pants that are also professional looking—think joggers with slight boot cut legs (or wide legs). My FB feed is filled with them.

      Reply ↓
    6. Medium Sized Manager*

      Have you tried linens? I have some from Abercrombie that fit really loosely and are honestly comfortable like pajama pants (and you can get them for cheaper elsewhere). The current trend is more wide cut, so I would take advantage of that! It’s still smart enough to look put together, especially if you are intentional with the shirts/shoes you wear.

      Reply ↓
    7. WellRed*

      This might be a little out there but JC Penney just launched a clothing line aimed at women in wheelchairs and the fabrics are soft and breathable to reduce irritation. There are probably other clothing lines like this as well.

      Reply ↓
    8. Zephy*

      You said you weren’t particularly interested in more feminine cuts of trousers, but a higher-waisted and looser cut trouser, maybe in a stretchier material, might actually help with this. There is a material called “ponte” that’s similar to a jersey knit fabric (like what tee shirts are made of), and at one point there were tons of professional-looking trousers available in it. If you’re AFAB, your natural waist is probably significantly higher on your body than where your waistband currently sits on most of your clothing – I’m assuming if a belt is irritating to the scar, you’re wearing said belt right at or just above your hips.

      If you’re okay with jumpsuits, that might work as well; since the top is connected to the bottoms, you don’t need a stiff belt to hold them up. The drawback is that you do have to get more or less completely naked to pee, though, and the ones made of softer/stretchier/flowier material can be a bit cumbersome to manage in a restroom (you don’t want it to fall on the floor, but there’s no structure to it, so it just slips right on down once it’s off your shoulders).

      Reply ↓
    9. Time for Tea*

      I’m assuming with 6th form college that you’re in the UK. If I’m right, I’m adding a link to some trousers in Next in a reply to this comment that are in a wide leg jersey with pleats at the waist.

      Think about fabrics like wool, crepe, jersey and polyesters that will be soft, give and move with you. In styles that flare out immediately from the waist and/or have pleats at the waist to lessen the tension off your hips. I would also think more high waisted styles than anything that ends below the waist.

      You’ll only need a couple of pairs to get you started, especially in a quick wash/dry fabric. Team with a nice top and smart shoes and you’re there. Vinted has tons of work wear on to save you money and you won’t really lose much if they end up not being comfortable and need selling on again!

      Reply ↓
        1. Can't remember my username*

          as someone who has a condition that means pressure on my abdomen gets painful quicker than I’d like, and in the UK, Next has some comfy soft trousers. You might also find Lucy and Yak have comfortable trousers, but you have to put some effort in making those look smart. M&S also have
          quite a lot of wide legged trousers at the moment. Wide legged, high rise trousers work well for me. I find if they are tight and then widen below the hip that doesn’t work as well for me as ones that have pleats or gathers.
          I also love some jumpsuits (but a bit of a pain using the bathroom).
          You might be able to get away with very soft waisted wide leg yoga pants. But you might need to see how that goes.
          You could consider long dresses and boots if that works for you,
          I’m sorry your self esteem has taken a hit, it’s so hard when you have to change how you dress round medical stuff rather than personal style choices.

          Reply ↓
    10. RLC*

      I have trousers made from “Tencel” blend fabric that are very soft to the touch – almost like pajamas – but definitely read as “regular clothes” as the fabric is fairly thick. In black or navy blue they would look smart enough for many office workplaces.
      A former colleague who had severe and sometimes-painful burn scars on her legs wore thick cotton blend straight legged joggers in black. No one realized that she wasn’t wearing ordinary trousers until she mentioned it.

      Reply ↓
    11. Damn it, Hardison!*

      A couple of specific recommendations: Banana Republic Factory Hayden pants are pull on with an elastic waist, look like regular trousers and are almost always on sale under $50. My absolute favorite are Athleta’s Endless Pant. Also pull on with soft waist band. They wear well, great material that doesn’t sag/get baggy. More expensive but Athleta has frequent sales.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        I’ll recommend BetaBrand’s line of dress yoga pants. They look like dress trousers (or jeans), but are elastic waist and knit fabric, so they’re as soft and stretchy as yoga pants. They’re my go-to business travel/ conference clothes.
        They do tend to squeeze by the end of a long day (the elastic at the waist is very wide, but eventually it’s a lot), and they can get pretty warm, but they look amazing.

        Oh, and they have tons of pockets! Real pockets you can put stuff in, like your phone. I’ve had mine for at least 5 years and they’ve really held up well.

        Betabrand is described as “women’s fashion”, but the wide-leg pants may not read as particularly femme, especially depending on your top and shoes.

        Reply ↓
    13. Shirley Keeldar*

      Duluth Trading Company NoGa pants! I love these–they are genuine as comfortable/stretchy as yoga pants, but have a thicker material and a not-quite-so-snug cut and they look great. The gray and black would be fine, I believe, in an environment like a school, especially paired with a blouse or sweater. Good luck finding the right thing!

      Reply ↓
    14. Noquestionsplease*

      I would go to a high-end sporting goods store and look at the men’s athletic wear. There are lots of athletic pants in comfortable stretchy fabric that look professional. Also, do a search for “travel clothes.” There will be at least a few stretchy yet neat-looking pants with all sorts of pockets that they market to people who fly/travel a lot and need to be comfortable.

      Reply ↓
    15. OfficeNorms*

      This entirely depends on the standards of your office. One of the things I look for in an office is a dress code of “you have to get dressed”. I want to be able to wear a tank top and shorts when it’s 95F. I want to wear comfortable sneakers because I have permanent ankle damage. I don’t wear makeup because of some conditions and I don’t want to have to worry about it.

      Wearing a T- shirt and sweatpants would have been totally fine in any office I’ve ever worked at. Some companies require suits. There are all sorts of ranges in between. So find out what the norms are at your new office.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  27. MA Dad*

    Yay I made it for an open thread. I feel like I have all these questions but when I try to put them into words, I just end up ranting.

    I was laid off March 2023 from a corporate job with a company I had worked for in various roles for about 19 years. It took a career change into insurance, getting a license on my own time and dime, and 51 weeks to finally land a job with an agency. Problem is, it is a large pay cut ($75K down to $58K), has worse health insurance ($800 every 4 weeks instead of $500), and I have much less PTO (was 30, now 12).

    Between a sickness in the spring, a bout of pneumonia a few months back, and recently getting over COVID, all my vacation time (12 days of combined PTO though it was prorated down to 10 this year for starting in late Feb) was just me recovering from being sick.

    I like the people here, well most of them, but I don’t feel great about the career choice. Is anyone else in insurance and get better PTO? It feels like I’m too early in this job to be burning out, but I feel miserable.

    Reply ↓
    1. Tio*

      I’m not in insurance, but it sounds like you’re on a lower rung of the ladder than before? 12 days PTO is not unusual for lower level non-insurance office work in the US, but each company is going to have different health care costs. I doubt it’s going to be specific to the industry. Have you applied at other places and looked at what compensation and benefits they offer? Because it mostly sounds like you have more of a problem with the company than the career to me

      Reply ↓
      1. MA Dad*

        I guess it could be considered lower rung but my corporate position was as an analyst in an individual contributor role, so I didn’t step down from management but being 2 different industries, I know comparing pay isn’t very helpful.

        I have applied to other places but no bites for interviews since landing this position. I only managed to get 3 interviews during my whole unemployment period and only got an offer on the third one, so I haven’t had a lot of choices. I’ve seen pay ranges at other agencies and I’m not way lower in pay. Our budget can mostly handle it but the lack of time off is rough.

        Reply ↓
        1. Cruciatus*

          I work for an insurance company, but not in insurance…but keep looking around? My health insurance premium is like $60 a month. That’s for the top tier insurance (which isn’t the best you’ve ever seen ever, but it’s pretty good). I also only make $9000 less than you doing non-insurance work (archives), but I’m not licensed, etc. My one gripe is vacation time, which is also a measly 12 days, and I am at mid-career and had to give up 18 days a year, but does include 4 floating holidays, and I get a 401K and a pension (after 5 years).

          So I do think there are better choices out there for you. No one is biting now, but doesn’t mean they won’t later, especially as you get more time in doing this work.

          Reply ↓
    2. 653-CXK*

      Hello, fellow MA resident! I’ve been in medical health insurance (first claims processing, then medical claims analysis) for over 28 years, with my first company over 21 years and my current company over 5.

      When I worked with my first company, I ended up with 280 ET hours per year (working out to about 35 PTO days) and my medical insurance was about $35 biweekly ($70 per month). Currently in my second company, we begin with 20 PTO days and it increases 5 PTO days every 5 years (I just celebrated my 5th anniversary, so now I have 25 PTO days) until you reach your 15th year, in which the maximum is again 35 PTO days. My medical insurance began at $75 biweekly, but has increased to $133 biweekly and I estimate it will go up again.

      On the other hand, first company was notorious for underpaying its employees. We got the occasional bonus and raise, but it was definitely not enough to raise on a family (and certainly not enough to live on in Boston). At least with second company, I’m able to save money for emergencies, and perhaps when my mother’s mortgage is down, I’ll help pay it off.

      I’m only speaking for medical health insurance, but other insurance industries may vary. They may pay more, depending on the work they do or whether they get a percentage of whatever recovery they get.

      Reply ↓
      1. MA Dad*

        I’m in Property/Casualty dealing with commercial clients. That health insurance sounds pretty cheap, but I do have a family plan (self, wife, and a couple kids) so maybe it’s apples/oranges. I had to choose it off of the Health Connector and the employer pays half so I’m at a little over $400 every 2 weeks for medical/dental

        I think after 5 years, I get an extra week off, but it is a gut punch knowing that the near 20 years I spent earning PTO at my last company just went out the window.

        Reply ↓
        1. HoundMom*

          I am in an agency that has both employee benefits and P&C. We have unlimited time off for all employees. My health insurance is less than yours but is not a great plan.

          Reply ↓
    3. NaoNao*

      I’m on the payer side and I “earn” PTO but it’s about 15 days total + paid holidays (I think about 6-8 total but not more than that) and a couple “wellness” days we can use as needed. I don’t love that the PTO is all one bucket, sick and PTO vacation are the same thing, and it’s all earned as we go. It just rubs me the wrong way and feels stingy. But then again insurance it’s known for being generous, heh.

      Reply ↓
    4. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      I worked in b2b insurance for a very large company, and got 15 days combined PTO in the first year prorated to when I started (went up to 20 in year two and 25 in year 5) and paid similar insurance premiums (covering myself and my partner).

      Reply ↓
  28. HannahS*

    Side gigs: Do you have one, why, how do you make it work, and how do you feel about it? Really just curious.

    I’m a medical resident (read: lots of debt, underpaid.) I “moonlight” which means that I work as a resident at a non-academic hospitals/clinics; we make private arrangements with the supervisor to keep some proportion of the money they earn. I’m doing it specifically to save for a downpayment (in an FHSA for my fellow Canadians) and I have a love/hate relationship with. It’s nice to work independently and get what feels like more appropriate compensation, but it’s draining. I make it work by squeezing in patients before my official workday and then doing the paperwork after my toddler’s asleep; other residents do it on weekends but I don’t because it cuts into family time.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alex*

      I have a side gig. Mostly for the same reason you do–I’m saving up for a home and there’s no way I’d get there as a single person in my HCOL area without multiple jobs. That said, I don’t have a spouse or kids, so there are fewer demands on my time. I work my regular 9-5, plus about 14-15 hours Fri-Sun. It’s tiring and yeah I’d rather be doing something else and be able to enjoy a weekend. I have to turn down most invitations from friends to do stuff. I have a friend who gets irritated that I can’t “just take the day off” to go do something with her, but I view that as her problem, not mine.

      I tell myself it will pay off one day and it’s not forever.

      Reply ↓
    2. this-is-fine.jpeg*

      At one point I was doing freelance writing on the side but as my pay increased at my day job, I decided I didn’t like giving up my weekends for the tiny pittance I was paid at the side gig.

      I also have a part-time job working at a seasonal entertainment company. I work 6 months out of the year, super flex schedules (as much or as little as I want, I personally tend to do ~5-10 hrs / week during the season) and it’s a FUN job with great benefits (free tickets to events). It’s just a tiny bit of extra fun money and I love most of my coworkers and my boss is great there, which is what really helps keep me around. I know I’m very very lucky and feel like I have found a unicorn part-time gig. On the plus side, many of the shifts are so slow that I can read a book / browse the internet, though the downside of that is I do worry that they won’t need me one day.

      Reply ↓
    3. M-Dub*

      My side-gig is cat-sitting thru Rover. I set my own rates, availability, and service radius. Prior to getting a car (I live in DC), I only did gigs in a vary narrow service area and still brought in a couple hundred bucks a month. Now that I have a car and can do a few more drop ins each week, I bring in about $500 + tips/month. The actual work of a 30-60 minute gig only takes about 10 minutes and then the rest of the time I get paid to sit there and read and pet a cat (if they want pets).

      Reply ↓
    4. Paint N Drip*

      I find that side gigs that are purposeful take up WAY too much of my time, but perhaps that math is based on the fairly low-wage work I’m capable of. My best side gigs historically have been hobbies that I can offload the results of for money (making art, gardening, etc.) – I don’t actively try to pump out more hobby time to make money so the mentality with this style of side gig works better for me too, although is NOT conducive to making a ton of money.

      I don’t have kids so I don’t know where it lands for you, but how vital is maxed-out family time right now versus running against the ever-increasing housing prices? I also don’t know how residency works really, so maybe taking comfort in a much bigger paycheck coming soon will make it easy to work your regular hours and have the real down payment savings start soon. I wish you luck! You’re crushing it so far, as far as this stranger is concerned :)

      Reply ↓
    5. Nicosloanica*

      I have a 35 hour a week (FT for the field) nonprofit job but I take contract work if it’s lucrative enough. By that I mean $80 an hour. I do sometimes use sick or vacation leave to work my side hustle, which I understand isn’t very ethical or sustainable, but otherwise I’d probably starve, although I make a decent salary – just a very high COL area, and I’m midcareer with a house.

      Reply ↓
    6. SimonTheGreyWarden*

      Kind of? I’m adjunct faculty at a community college, but I have been doing that for 13 years while my current job I’ve only had for 3.

      Reply ↓
  29. Well?*

    I’m in a bit of a conundrum. I started my first “leadership” position at a new company, but was told it would not have any supervisory responsibility. Well, I was bait and switched and I have 20 direct reports. I brought up my frustration with my boss, that I don’t have this skill nor will I have been as interested in the role of that was the case. I asked for support with training on supervisory skills and a contact with HR. My boss made a remark “well I never got that kind of support, I was thrown in” and I’m just like ok… too bad for you but I’m not taking that. I feel a bit like a b*tch. I brought it up this month but I have a feeling we don’t have the resource, nor will my boss cough up the funds right now. I like my boss quite a bit and she’s also new, trying to change the org which was in a bad spot and experienced a lot of turnover. This probably isn’t on her priority. But I also don’t want to be set up to fail just because that’s how it was done before.

    How often should I follow up on this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Wanderer*

      I’d mention it monthly. Supervising without training can be very stressful, especially if you are not that interested anyway. As you said: Don’t let yourself be set up to fail.

      Additionally, being bait-and-switched like that is imo simply a bad move from management and I would have trouble trusting my supervisors after that.
      Keep an eye on your stress level and see if you find your position sustainable on the long run.

      Reply ↓
    2. Susan Calvin*

      Wow, 20 people is A Lot, too, and at a company you don’t know all the norms yet? Yikes.

      If they don’t have a training or coaching program in place, it’s pretty unlikely you can get one just for asking; I’d try to focus my energy on formulating more specific questions you need answers to, starting with being VERY clear on what the actual responsibilities and expectations are! Is there a formal review cycle? How does that work, and what is the timeline? Do you assign or review day-to-day work, or is that done on a project level? Are you supposed to coach all these people? Have weekly 1:1s with them??

      To answer your actual question, a bi-weekly standing appointment with your boss (even if it’s just half an hour, as long as it’s well prepared and efficient) seems appropriate. Also, you may get your HR contact just by virtue of your boss trying to pawn of the more arcane process questions.

      Reply ↓
    3. Helmac*

      20 direct reports is A LOT! Even for an experienced manager, that would be a very heavy supervisory load in many (most?) companies. I think I read somewhere that once a manager has more than 3 direct reports, the company should expect their productivity on any other projects to be significantly reduced. Management is the major part of their job at that point.
      I think that to some degree you have to do a lot of self-education as a new manager because even if there is a training or mentoring program at your company, there’s no guarantee that it will align with your “work personality” or values or how you want to show up as a manger. So, reading on sites like these, in books that you see recommended, really does help bring that info focus and give some basic scripts and skills for one-on-one meetings, coaching, performance reviews, and so on. And, you may think it worthwhile to pay out of pocket for some of the pretty reasonable virtual trainings offered by the Management Center ($150-$450 depending on length), which are aligned with the approach on this site and in my experience, really well done.

      Reply ↓
    4. TechWorker*

      Tbh I would be following up all the time and/jobhunting – 20 direct reports is IMO too many even for someone who actually wants to do management (better to have more structure!). A job with no reports vs a job with 20 reports are totally different jobs, plus in the nicest possible way if you are a reluctant manager it is unlikely those 20 people are going to get what they need out of the situation either.

      Reply ↓
  30. Wanderer*

    I (m) moved cities and started a new job earlier this year. My new manager (f) has been here only a couple of months longer than I and is pretty much my age.
    At my previous job a was in a position similar to hers, although at a different non-profit.
    At couple of weeks ago she had some trouble concerning her private life that caused her to take a few days off and deal with things. Things she was open toward the team about.
    When she returned I asked her how she was and we had a little talk about what’s going on in our respective lifes, ending with her thanking me for listening.
    I made a half-joke about her just having to ask me if she wants to talk again. She retorted by suggesting we could go out for lunch one day.
    Honestly, a lunch break with the boss sounds like a good idea to me. So far, we get along rather well. There are one or two projects we have begun that might be worthwile discussing in a seperate location – She makes some changes U support that sometimes clash with a certain “We have always done it this way.”-attitude in some of the staff – and I want to be on good footing with her since it is very likely I will be her Second-in-Command* in the future.

    What I am unsure of is: Can I bring up that lunch break with her or would that come off as me asking my, married, boss on a date?

    *Sorry, I’m no native speaker and can’t think of a better way to put it.

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      I think I’d let her open the door to a lunch break. But you should definitely follow up about the projects. Plan for that conversation in a conference room versus one of your respective offices, or some other place in the office that is not an office. If you’re thinking “separate location” would be a good place for those discussions, I’d lean more toward professional separate location.

      If she asks about lunch, that’s one thing. But I don’t think I’d suggest it. The optics might be off anyway but much better for her to make that offer if you’re going to discuss work.

      Reply ↓
    2. Anon for This*

      Some of this may be culture-dependent, but where I work getting together with coworkers for lunch is common. As long as you suggest a very visible place for lunch (maybe even the building cafeteria), put the lunch on the office calendar as a working lunch, and don’t hide it in any way, you should be fine.

      Reply ↓
  31. StruggleBus*

    I feel like work is affecting my mental health negatively and I’m stuck in a trauma response. I have CPTSD and it’s constantly flaring up at work.

    I can’t quit with nothing else lined up. I just started new meds and I’m wildly unhappy about this since I had it under control for years.

    Can anyone else give advice on how not to be triggered at work? Anything you do outside of work that helps??

    Reply ↓
        1. ThatGirl*

          I’m glad to hear the first part but sorry about the second. I don’t really have an answer and I’m not sure there is a good one, given that your manager is part of the problem.

          My only other suggestions are to make sure you are taking as good of care as possible of the rest of your life: eating well, getting enough sleep, exercise, spending time on things that make you feel good. Good luck.

          Reply ↓
    2. HannahS*

      Just brainstorming:
      Can you take any vacation time get a bit of a re-set?
      Are you eligible for a longer sick leave (I’m not American so I don’t know the specific term)
      Can you arrange to WFH more?
      Can you identify what specifically is triggering, and is there a way to have that thing modified?

      Reply ↓
      1. StruggleBus*

        I cannot WFH or take any vacation and I am not eligible for longer sick leave. I am out of vacation and it won’t replenish until spring. All good ideas though!

        My manager is the most triggering thing, not really a way to modify that besides leaving.

        Reply ↓
        1. Helmac*

          What is about your manager specifically? Unreasonable expectations, or disrepectful communication, or lack of communication? I think there is a way to deal with some of that stress, but not if the interactions or work expectations are abusive.

          Reply ↓
          1. StruggleBus*

            He does all three of these things! He never says anything nice, kind, or complimentary either, it’s just “Is this done? Is this done?” I am about a year in and have not gotten any feedback that is concrete? It’s all very vague. Everyone says I will find out how I’m doing at my yearly review but I would prefer that not be a surprise.

            Reply ↓
    3. Lisa*

      Are there categories or types of things that are triggering? You’re experiencing a medical issue and, if your manager and organization aren’t jerks, they would hopefully be willing to accommodate some changes while you work through things with your medical professionals. If you pulled a muscle or needed an operation, how would they handle it? Just because the issue is with your brain and not any other part of your body doesn’t mean they should be any less willing to work with you to accommodate changes that can help you. Sadly not every person or organization will be like this, but especially if you can articulate some specific changes and have documentation from your healthcare professionals, that *should* help. Won’t always, of course, but if it won’t make things worse mentally, it may help to ask.

      Reply ↓
      1. StruggleBus*

        Yes, there are a few things that are triggering:

        1. My manager, not really a way to modify this
        2. Office is open, but there’s no way to modify it or get a private area
        3. Unrealistic workload, working weekends constantly, having to cancel plans after work constantly

        Not sure how to change any of this TBH.

        Reply ↓
        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          New job – hopefully you’re looking.

          For 3, set firm boundaries and hold to them. They want you to come in on Saturday? So sorry, you have plans and aren’t available (your plan is: not being at work on Saturday). You can’t stay late tonight (or tomorrow night, or Monday night… or Tuesday night……) because of an appointment, can’t be moved. Your appointment is: your sanity.

          Reply ↓
        2. Hazel*

          I’m sorry this all seems a bit hopeless to you, but I think that’s something I would gently challenge. I think something will have to change, and it can’t be your health, for the worse. I also think it’s natural to get into a spiral of ‘nothing will work’ when you’re so stressed.

          Alison has good scripts for overwork ‘Boss, I can’t work so many evenings and weekends and last minute on call, it’s unsustainable. I can do x and y but not z, what do you want me to prioritize?’ I know the boss is hard to deal with, but could you or you and coworkers start there?

          Could you also shift your start time earlier or later to get more time without boss and colleagues – say ‘while the workload is so high, I really need focused time to maximize what I get done’. I find time without boss there is way more relaxed and productive.

          If all else fails and you’re US based, get your doctor to sign you off on FMLA leave?

          Reply ↓
    4. Fish out of water*

      I’m so sorry you’re having a tough time. I’ve dealt with similar issues. These tips are variants on standard therapy advice, but these are the things that have concretely helped me:

      – If you can, zone out. Maladaptively daydream. Waste time cultivating something in your mind that is all yours and that no one else can touch. I wrote scads and scads of fiction in my head, and sometimes even on a notepad on my desk in coded shorthand, during the more difficult periods. Especially if you can follow-up in an email for the cliff notes of a meeting later, or warn coworkers that you’re going through a difficult time and may need things repeated, this is a great way to mentally protect yourself while you shore up other supports. Of course, it may exacerbate other problems, especially if you’re concerned about how your symptoms are affecting your job performance. But that may be more easily fixed later than what’s currently happening.

      – Cultivate a skill or hobby that is unlike what you do at work. This can be a huge confidence boost, a refuge from what is triggering you, something no one can take from you, and something you have power over. Mine were writing and running back when I was dealing with this. These days, it’s rowing and video games. It could be knitting, drawing, coding, cooking. And again this is something you can intensively think about when you feel your mindset start to spin at work: how skilled you are, how much progress you’ve made, and what’s next.

      – This is bog standard AND corny, but it has genuinely changed the game for me: gratitude journaling. Sometimes when things feel on the bleak side, my paltry little list is things like “my favorite season happens every year” and “the wall of my living room is a nice colour,” but just thinking of things that I’m looking forward to or am proud of helps break the spiral. If you’re reacting at work, you might even try making a quick little list of things you’re going to do for yourself after work: take a walk, take a bath, eat a croissant. This puts power back in your hands, highlights the good parts of life, AND helps you take good care of yourself.

      In case it helps: things are much better for me these days. I moved to a cheaper city so I could work part time and recover, and now I work full-time in a completely different field that makes me very happy in a fantastic work environment. You are strong; I have every faith in you. Take care.

      Reply ↓
      1. StruggleBus*

        Thanks, this list helps a lot. I know I’m strong but I’m very tired of being strong and I just want to rest and for my nervous system to calm down.

        Reply ↓
    5. mreasy*

      Can you take medical leave? It’s a salary hit while you’re on it but you still get paid. I have had to do this several times across a few jobs (3-4 weeks at a time usually). If part of it is adjusting to the new meds, that might cover a good chunk of the adjustment period. I have also been in inpatient care, and while it doesn’t sound like you’re at that stage, it is always worth researching local options and finding what your benefits cover in case you need to make a quick decision down the line. Wishing you the very best. I’m so sorry you are suffering right now.

      Reply ↓
  32. Jess R.*

    I have to have a conversation with one of my reports about attendance, and I am dreading it.

    It’s comparatively easy for me to talk to someone about performance because the metrics are clear, but this is harder for me. This person has a chronic illness that often keeps her from coming in, and I am struggling to balance compassion (as someone who is also, but differently, chronically ill, and who also believes that capitalism screws us all but especially the ill and disabled) with business needs. She’s got FMLA, but she is out way more than her FMLA agreement allows for, and it’s causing issues with our team’s work.

    I know what I have to do. My co-manager and I are going to tell her that her absence rate is causing issues, that we need solutions/ideas and better communication from her, that this is serious business, etc. I just hate it. And I was going to talk to her today but she just called in, so I can’t even have that conversation until next week now. Blegh.

    Reply ↓
    2. noname today*

      It does sound like it’s a performance issue—her absences are affecting your team’s work. Focus on that, see if there are reasonable accommodations that can be made, but not getting the work done is not one of them.

      Something to think about: Is it possible to change their job focus/responsibilities that would allow them to stay on payroll—an even if it’s at an alternate rate? Or a move to reduced hours (and responsibilities ) but enough to keep their medical coverage for now? If over time they still cannot make that work, you’ll know you have tried everything.

      Finally, you could ask them what they see as a working solution (but one that would still meet your needs too). See what they say…Maybe the solution (if they’re in the US) is SS disability status?

      Reply ↓
      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Disability is incredibly hard to get and, from what I understand, basically requires living in poverty.

        Reply ↓
    3. Anecdata*

      I think you and your co-manager need to also figure out what the bar you need her to meet actually is and communicate that. Talk to HR ahead of time if you don’t know​. If her job is on the line, you owe it to her to give her the information she needs to figure out if and how she can keep it (“this is serious” is harder for her to know exactly what it means compared to “we can’t keep you on if you have more than 3 callouts per quarter, that aren’t covered by FMLA).

      Reply ↓
    4. NaoNao*

      I would suggest approaching from a solution focus: how can we resolve this and what solutions can we find, rather than just saying “hey, this isn’t working…”

      I would ask her to actively find solutions and come up with ideas, since it’s her issue and ask her to work with you/team in figuring out ways the work can get covered or managed. Maybe gently lead her to “fewer absences” if you can, but you might find something that doesn’t require her to be at work more, like automation, handing off work to a junior, readjusting timelines, taking her part time, demotion, etc.

      Reply ↓
    5. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      Yeah, this sucks, and I’ve been there on the manager side twice and the employee side once – lots of empathy for both of you. In the conversation, it’s really ok to name that it’s a bad situation, and even acknowledge your thoughts on the structural shittiness. Work expectations come off as much more reasonable when they’re grounded in managers’ humanity. Let yourself feel the feelings about how much this sucks, let yourself express that to her (without undermining what you need), and then listen to her reactions – as long as she feels like you’re on her side, she’ll probably be willing to share ideas about how to proceed. I’m sure she’s been thinking about this too and she might even be relieved to get the expectations conversation out in the open.

      Reply ↓
    6. Mojo021*

      Check for patterns in her absenteeism, also ask for updated paperwork. If she is out more than what was indicated on her paperwork she should be speaking to her doctor and addressing the issues.

      Reply ↓
    7. Helmac*

      Just chiming it to say that my team is in a similar situation with one employee, though without the FMLA accommodation. We have very generous PTO, so it’s unprecedented to have someone burn through it faster than it accrues. I’m not her line manager, though she supports my team’s work, so the conversation won’t be with me, but I feel churlish even bringing it up as an issue when my instinct is always to say “of course, take care of yourself, rest, don’t think about work, don’t check email” etc.

      Reply ↓
    8. Jen MaHRtini*

      Have you or HR already talked to her about recertifying her FMLA accommodations? I recommend doing that before addressing her absences as a performance issue.

      Reply ↓
    9. Donn*

      I feel for you, Jess R. Pre-Internet era, I knew someone in a similar situation. Call them “Cory,” and I apologize for being so general.

      Even if today’s remote capabilities had existed back then, Cory likely still couldn’t have worked. They weren’t financially secure enough to afford home Internet, mobile phone, and a suitable computer if the employer wouldn’t provide one.

      With their health condition, Cory couldn’t be certain how well they’d function each day. They also had a complex child care situation.

      Reply ↓
  33. Nicki Name*

    Fellow tech people, are there any good sites for tech jobs these days other than Dice? I’ve found jobs through Dice before, but I’d really like to have somewhere else to search that isn’t mostly mystery-box recruiter listings. LinkedIn’s search is terrible, and Underdog.io looks like it’s intended for a very specific type of techbro. Is there a motherlode out there that I’m missing?

    Reply ↓
    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I’ve used Big Shoes Network. And Indeed has been good for government/nonprofit listings.

      My state government hires a lot of tech people, so don’t overlook government job sites.

      Reply ↓
    2. Indeed*

      Dice has gone way downhill. I know you don’t like LinkedIn, but I’ve had the best luck with LinkedIn and Indeed.

      Reply ↓
  34. NaoNao*

    Coworker “nipping at my heels”–has anyone had a coworker they feel is essentially trying to undermine you and/or gun for a promotion using you as leverage?

    I have a rather unpleasant coworker who is just, for lack of a better phrase, nipping at my heels. I could give examples but they require context so I’ll just keep it short–if this is happening to you, you know what it feels like. Constant 2-cents negative comments and “concerns”, public call outs, private complaints to managers that have a kernel of truth but could have been resolved 1:1, snippy condescending tone in emails, “corrections” and a heavy-handed faux “didn’t you already know this?!?!” vibe…you get the idea.

    How do we handle these people? I keep reminding myself that worker bees and working ultra-hard and showing that you’re toiling away does nothing in most corporate offices and management doesn’t really care about that for the most part (meaning going far above and beyond, and nitpicking others’ work is not the path to promotion) and I got a promotion NOT myself this year so I feel my job itself is secure but it’s just so…irritating and I’m worrying about my reputation and optics at this point.

    Reply ↓
    2. Riley*

      Been there! You HAVE to take the highroad as you combat this. Respond *cheerfully* to their words, not to their intent. In fact, assume good intent and respond accordingly.
      “Hey, thanks for airing that concern. The TPS coversheets are all up to date. You’re so good for keeping us all on track!”
      “Hey, thanks the reminder that the sun rises in the East! You’re so great with keeping us on top of the details.”
      Etc.
      The goal is not to prove anything to your Snakey Coworker (SC). The goal is to impress on bystanders what a great, on-top-of-things, and appreciative worker you are so that it is harder for SC to undermine you.

      Reply ↓
      1. ferrina*

        I agree that you have to be scrupulously professional on this. What will protect you most is the interactions that you have outside of Snakey Coworker (SC). If the rest of the organization knows you as diligent, professional and on top of things, SC is going to look like the odd one with the snarky comments.

        Personally, I have a few petty tricks that I use. When someone tries to challenge me in an undermining way, I cheerfully give them the answer, then follow up with a question about their own work. 8 times out of 10, the SC will not be on top of things (that’s why they are undermining others, because they know they can’t get their on their own merits). Usually the SC will back down after this- they don’t want their work under a microscope. Occasionally they will escalate, but that is a different can of worms. Again, already having a strong reputation among everyone else will protect you.

        Reply ↓
        1. KitKat*

          This and the comment above, times 10000. I’ve been in this situation a few times and find it suuuuuuuper draining. But with this strategy I have always come out on top, or at a minimum battled it to the point the person isn’t getting what they want and backs off. Your reputation is EVERYTHING in this situation, and they can’t compromise it if you never give an opening.

          One other petty approach I’ve had success with – when they up bring “concerns”, you can try Taking it Seriously. Let’s have a Serious Discussion about the Concerns, they sound Serious! Then, from the Serious Discussion, we’ll probably both have action items to work on addressing the Serious Concern. Inevitably, I will do my action items and they will not, since the whole point of their approach is that complaining and undermining is easier than working. So the whole topic will quickly die. Plus I can make it visible that I am doing my part to address the Concerns, and drop an open to-do list in front of whatever powers are involved — oh yeah we did talk about that Concern! We agreed on steps XYZ, and wow would you look at that, X is done but YZ are still open, you might want to check with Snake on that?

          Reply ↓
    3. peter b*

      I had this recently – in my case, I think it was pretty reactive based on past experiences before our team expanded, and my coworker felt I was stepping on toes. Eventually it got to a point where after a snippy email assuming I had snubbed her on purpose, I asked to call and chat, saying I’d noticed a pattern where she’d raise an issue and then after discussion it’d turn out it was a non-issue in the first place, so could she please talk to me first neutrally before announcing an issue that clearly was implied to be my fault in meetings with the whole team.

      This worked, but mostly because I do believe she was freaked out by a lot of stuff that didn’t have to do with me, and I happened to be new/younger but she didn’t actually want to be haranguing me. Which was hard to be civil during but it worked. It’s been easier to let go because I trust my manager & another coworker to give me honest feedback about how I come across and if I am actually causing problems – I hope maybe you have someone like that, because the optics CAN be a problem some but not all of the time. Doing what Riley said and ignoring subtext with a cheerful can-do attitude is grating but very effective for me too.

      Reply ↓
    4. Blue Pen*

      Someone else already said, but as frustrating as it is, you have to keep a cool head here and take the high road. That said, I would bet your leadership sees what’s going on; it’s not hard to deduce what’s happening when another employee of comparable stature is nipping at the heels of another. Your coworker is the one who looks bad, not you.

      But at the same time, it doesn’t mean that you have to take it. The next time your coworker attempts a public call-out, call them out on it. “Bob, it seems like you feel compelled to make everyone know about an issue we resolved yesterday and have moved on from. Is there something more you need the group to weigh in on? Otherwise, I’d like to move on to more pressing matters.”

      Reply ↓
  35. BellaStella*

    Oooh boy what a week. Can I ask for advice on 2 things please?

    1. How to continue to phrase, “I am not your admin” to a colleague who is 2 levels above me but is new (4 months). 4 times this week she asked me to do things like a) find plates and forks for a cake she brought in, b) show people how to get to a local spot, and c) make arrangement for stuff. And here is the kicker. She is new to this field, I have been in this org 5+ years and doing this technical work for as long. I am a technical officer. NOW, do not get me wrong, I help do a lot of admin stuff on this team, but she is acting like I am her admin and well, she has a temp to do this stuff, not me. Help for wording and approaches? So far I have said, no sorry, I have a call/meeting/paper to write, etc and have not helped her. But I need words I think for next time.

    2. Our missing stair dude has now got a new team member to do more of his work. I used to manage this person, and was her reference – and shared my concerns on the situation with HR when giving the reference. When this inevitably falls apart – or when she asks me for help – how do I redirect this? I want our org to be a good place for her as she is just out of school but I told HR this will be a shitshow….so when it does happen should i go to HR first and ask for thier guidance?

    The good thing was this week that I had external colleagues come in for a meeting and I had not seen them since May – they hugged me and were so happy to see me (they loved my work in the past) and we had a great time chatting. In front of the lady above who thinks I am her admin. I am so glad this was a genuine thing as I could not have asked for better support.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      For #1, I think this: she has a temp to do this stuff, not me is key. Can you start responding with “that’s a better question for [Temp] than for me,” “I don’t know, ask [Temp] about that,” along with your “no, I’m busy” responses? If she gets the hint and starts going to the temp for those requests, great! If she keeps coming to you, I think it’s worth having a bigger picture conversation:

      “Hey, [colleague], you often come to me with admin questions. Can you please go to [Temp] with those questions instead? They know more of the admin things and will be able to help you much faster, as the main focus of my job is [technical stuff].”

      Reply ↓
      2. ferrina*

        Totally agree with the advice to redirect this to the temp. Make sure that you aren’t helping her with the admin stuff. Where are the forks and plates? Either you aren’t sure, or you say “they’re in the kitchen, top right cabinets” then excuse yourself to work on your actual work (note that in the latter case, you are giving information but you are not actually doing the work of getting them. Information is fine, action is not. Even minor action.)

        I’m not sure if I would say anything- it depends on how your own boss is. I’ve had weird reactions to telling people “hey, that’s actually not my job.” It sounds like she’s new enough that you aren’t sure yet how she’ll react.

        Reply ↓
      3. overly pedantic fluffball*

        yep, if there’s an appropriate person, specifically redirect her to that person. If there’s an element of sexism involved – like she’s asking you because you’re the only other woman, specifically pointer to a man.

        Reply ↓
    2. Work wear*

      I’d suggest something like – “my understanding is [temp worker] can provide support to you for this task, but if this is new task for them, I’m happy to provide guidance”. And I might CC: the temp worker, if you think it will go over okay…

      Reply ↓
      1. Everything Bagel*

        This is friendly and helpful, but I wouldn’t add the part about providing guidance unless that’s actually part of your job.

        Reply ↓
        1. BellaStella*

          yeah it is not. this lady was hired 2 levels above me into a field she knows not much about, but she has other expertise. but she is just …. bossy and well, clueless. and her manager is also not great. but I can redirect. Thank you both!

          Reply ↓
    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      For #1, a cheerful “Temp should be able to help you with that!” would probably redirect her. That said, none of the things you describe necessarily ping me as her treating you like her admin, but I’ve worked in lots of places where a person two levels above you asking for your help with something occasionally is something you just do.

      For #2, I don’t think you can do much of anything here, can you? You’re not Missing Stair’s boss nor the new person’s boss, so unless you can go to your boss and say “Missing Stair is not doing X and it’s affecting my work on Y” I don’t think you have much standing to do anything. You can tell your new colleague that you suggest talking to her boss or HR, but I don’t think you should personally be doing that on her behalf.

      Reply ↓
    4. HonorBox*

      I think there’s a bit of nuance given that the colleague in the first scenario is new. If it is general “where is stuff” or “how to get around” kinds of questions, providing information is fine, but stopping to provide actual help is another. If it is “how do we get to local spot” you could give directions. But you shouldn’t walk them to that spot. If it is making arrangements for things, though, or if she’s insistent that you stop and take action beyond providing information, you can tell her that “temp” is the right person to provide that help.

      If it continues to happen, can you talk to your own boss about this? Because it seems really weird that you’re in a position that isn’t at all admin AND that the company is paying a temp to fill that role. You need to have the ability to focus on your own work and not make arrangements for her stuff.

      Reply ↓
    5. tabloidtainted*

      “Where are the plates and forks?”

      “They’re in the top cupboard, but for future reference, your temp is the right person for these types of questions.”

      Reply ↓
  36. bfl*

    help! i’m looking for a post where the OP was overwhelmed/paralyzed by their inbox. i remember allison had some great tips to combat this, and i am in dire need! it is not the 8/29/24 post.

    thanks in advance!!

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      Are you thinking of the “I delay writing back to people and then never do it — can I fix this?” post from January 8, 2018? That was more about the emotional side of not responding to emails, rather than the “technical inbox tips” from the 8/29/24 post.

      Reply ↓
        1. Hlao-roo*

          Hmm, I see that the “I delay writing back to people and then never do it — can I fix this?” was re-posted on January 15, 2024 but it’s all the same tips.

          The other email-related posts I can find are mostly from the other side:

          “how do I follow up with people who are bad at responding to work emails?” from February 27, 2018

          “my coworker won’t answer my emails” from January 8, 2019

          “my boss has 10,000 unread emails” from September 11, 2019

          There are a few posts on procrastination that may have tips that will help you tackle your inbox:

          “how can I fix my procrastination problem?” from January 28, 2019

          “can you really ever get past being a procrastinator?” from February 17, 2022

          “I’m a terrible procrastinator” from June 13, 2024

          Reply ↓
  37. Hyaline*

    I’m chair of a committee within my (university) department that has recently undetaken (at the request of the department chair) re-doing some protocol and instruction documents used by both staff and students outside of our department. I took the lead on the project and requested initial input. Crickets. I reached out to one member of the committee who is an expert in this area and asked for an outline or rough draft (I could have done it myself, but I felt it was important to involve other committee members)–and that’s exactly what I got, a skeleton draft. I expanded it and sent that out for input. Crickets.

    I’m now at the stage of creating final documents and implementing them (uploading them where they can be accessed by those outside our department) and I’m curious–when you’re on “committee” work, how much input do you actually expect? Do you solicit it at various stages, or was I expecting too much? And finally, how much should I weigh input and buy-in at the final stage vs just implementing the thing, and do you have tips for soliciting that input if you feel it’s important? I don’t mind this being a solo project, but I don’t want to exclude or cut the process short.

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      How much do you need?

      I don’t work in academia, but I am very, vey well-versed in group projects in a work setting. A few options on how to handle this:
      1) Do it yourself. Give them a chance to respond, but when they don’t, happily take the work and showcase it. Make sure that whoever you report to knows you took the lead. This option is great when you have a certain way you want the SOPs to be- that way you can claim that “this document is backed by the whole committee” when you know they only backed it because they didn’t feel like doing work. Lazy buy-in is sometimes a valid form of buy-in!
      2) Make it unavoidable. Set a meeting with them. Corner them at lunch. Don’t leave them alone until they give you input. It really helps to have distinct questions/feedback you need from them rather than “general thoughts”. This option is recommended when you genuinely need feedback from someone in order to ensure the project is a success (like if there is an expert that needs to answer certain questions).
      3) Delegate to someone else. If you don’t want to do the whole project yourself, make sure that someone else is assigned the next step. You need to have a named person and a named next step. Then follow up with them every couple weeks via email. That way if the project dies, you can point to the responsible party. This only works if you are willing to let the project die (which is sometimes necessary for a company to realize the problem) and you won’t be thrown under the bus. But it can be a good way to protect your time and set boundaries.

      I recommend option 1- continue to give people a chance, but if they don’t take it, don’t force them to.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hazel*

        I think it’s very hard for people to just work from a blank page and SOP type documents are pretty boring for folks who know how to do most things already. Can you send a google survey, specific questions or ideally ask them in a brainstorming session – like ‘what would you have wanted to know when you were new to this’ or ‘what’s the best way to do x process?’ People like to give opinions if it is easy! So they will critique your draft six ways to Sunday but not produce anything original. Send something very rough and let them have at it. Don’t be discouraged when they do! We just tried to get website content for a volunteer org and it was like pulling teeth. But a session and feedback sheets led by an IT pro can yield amazing results – think ‘what does this website/SOP/ whatever do? What would you like it to do? What can we drop? Out of all the things you just said you want, which are must have, nice to have, not really needed? A bit of structure around the ideas works wonders. But this is a thankless job, good luck!

        Reply ↓
  38. Hungry-Hungry, not Ambitious-Hungry*

    I work remotely for a B2B company and have just joined a team that supports a client by augmenting their staff. The client is a large bank and teams are often located in multiple time zones. I mentioned to my main contact that I generally work 7:30-5 in my own time zone and take breaks to make an 8-hour day. This increases my availability across time zones and ensures that I get to see the sun in the winter.

    The response when I mentioned taking lunch was as though I’d said something rude or shameful. Apparently, nobody at this bank takes lunch. (Or maybe they just don’t admit it?) Colleagues say their experience at other banks is much the same. Our own company does support lunch breaks.

    I’m taking my breaks.
    Do you have advice on how to do that diplomatically?

    Reply ↓
    2. WorkerDrone*

      I would just… take lunch? Block off the time on your calendar and take your lunch break.

      Is someone actively telling you that you can’t/shouldn’t, or is it that they just were surprised that you were taking lunch, but not trying to stop you?

      Reply ↓
    3. ferrina*

      Depends how sensitive the client it. You could simply not say the word “lunch”. Instead, use euphemisms like “I just stepped away from my desk for a few minutes” or “I was taking care of something” or “I’m not available at that time” or “I have another commitment”

      But most clients will probably understand that lunch breaks are a thing that others take.

      Reply ↓
    4. WellRed*

      Be matter of fact about it and don’t mention it again or any part of your schedule or seeing the sun. They obviously don’t care about balance.

      Reply ↓
    5. TechWorker*

      Agree with others, just do it. If that means putting a recurring meeting in your calendar to make sure you get lunch break, do that. You ‘have a clash’ – you could choose to be flexible and shift the break around if there’s literally no other time that works, and most places if a previous meeting ran over you’d probably just move your lunch back a bit.. but taking lunch is not unreasonable at all.

      Reply ↓
    6. The Unionizer Bunny*

      DoL (federal) has no standards around lunch breaks . . . but state laws often do! Check yours. Check theirs. Banks often care about compliance; if you can tell them you are complying with local employment law, they should respect that. If they keep pushing, and you point out that their workplace appears to be in violation of local employment laws . . . well, it’s a bad look for federally-regulated companies to be selecting which laws they will comply with. Nobody wants to antagonize a person who could highlight the need for increased scrutiny.

      Transparency: pass 1, comment 2/6

      Reply ↓
  39. Magic Medicine (they/them)*

    Any ideas on how you might have handled this situation? Pet death and sort of implied negligence mentioned below.

    I have a coworker who I run a virtual office hours meeting with twice a week. It’s not super well attended, so fairly frequently there’s time with just the two of us there and we can shoot the breeze. This week on Monday, he sounded a little down when I greeted him, so I figured, alright, I can do most of the talking today when needed. It was just the two of us for a bit, though, and after a minute he told me his new puppy had killed his kitten over the weekend, and how it happened and that he’d buried her and found another of his cats dead outside. I had no idea what to say in the moment, so I was quiet, eventually made a sympathetic sound, and we logged off at our usual time.

    This coworker has been in a bad mood much of the week when I’ve spoken to him- I’m not sure if I should attribute it to the situation above or something else, but most of the time I can handle it. I just have no idea what in the world I should I have said, if I maybe should have mentioned it to anyone else?? When I told a friend about this they questioned if I knew the shelter where he was getting his pets and if they knew about it, but I have no idea; we work remotely from different states. He’ll be out next week, at least, so I hope he takes some time to recover.

    Reply ↓
    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      “Oh, I’m so sorry” is usually good enough. And don’t mention it to anyone else unless it comes up, like, “I talked to Mike today and he was super weird,” and you say, “Oh, poor guy, his cat died.”

      The “implied negligence” part? Whether there was negligence or not, the end result is that he lost his pet, his new pet was involved, and he probably feels terrible. There is nothing for you to do and it’s not your business, and mentioning it to him (or to anyone who knows him) would be quite rude and unkind.

      Reply ↓
      1. Magic Medicine (they/them)*

        I of course would never bring it up to him again. I’m not heartless- I know he loved that kitten.

        Reply ↓
    2. Tio*

      I would not have mentioned it, and I think general sympathy noises were fine. There’s not much you can say to him as a regular coworker anyway.

      Reply ↓
    3. ferrina*

      Oh no.

      He’s probably in a bad mood because he’s dealing with a tough situation with his dog. My sister (who is not a negligent pet owner, just not experienced with dogs) had a dog that killed other animals, including a cat. It’s a really, really tough spot to be in.

      For now- don’t mention it, don’t ever bring it up. Don’t talk about pets with this person again. You have no way of knowing whether this is a genuinely tough situation for someone that was a bit too naive about owning this pet, or if they are actually a terrible pet owner. Personally, I wouldn’t want to know because I would have trouble working with someone that is a terrible pet owner, so I would need to deniability so I could continue to speak to this person (and do my job).
      Good luck.

      Reply ↓
      1. Magic Medicine (they/them)*

        I certainly won’t bring it up to him again. In the past he has said a few things about his pet ownership that have made me side-eye, but this was a very startling occurrence for a Monday morning.

        I just hope he feels better when he gets back. It’s a bit of a crunch time for our team through mid-November, and we had a rather excruciating meeting yesterday with our manager where they both seemed to get quite frustrated. This too shall pass, but if only it could pass faster, if you know what I mean.

        Reply ↓
    4. tabloidtainted*

      The dog killed both of his cats? If it was a pattern of alarming stories about his pets I’d consider a report to the local SPCA.

      Reply ↓
  40. Notasecurityguard*

    So I have a fairly low stakes question about cancer (hello brand new sentence.)

    a coworker of mine hasn’t been explicit about having cancer and being on chemo but also hasn’t exactly hidden it (self tagged posts on social media saying things like “infusion time” and tagging the oncology center, things like that. I’m also publicly friends with her on social media although we don’t interact much).

    when I was very ill it was nice to hear i didn’t look nearly as bad as I felt, and so I’m wondering if I can say “oh you’re looking well!” (and to be fair, she is. for someone on chemo).

    the only reason I hesitate is her and I have never had a 1 on 1 convo about the cancer, and she’s in the age range where technically it wouldn’t be inconceivable under different circumstances that “you’re looking well” could have a more flirtatious tone.

    I’m overthinking this right?
    or should I just not say anything, that also seems acceptable

    Reply ↓
    1. Alex*

      If she hasn’t mentioned it, don’t say anything. You have to take others’ lead on this and she is signaling that she doesn’t want to talk about it.

      Reply ↓
    2. HannahS*

      Don’t say it. Other people have the opposite response to being told they look well when they aren’t feeling well. Stick with general pleasantries, “Hi Carol, nice to see you,” etc.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        I second this. “Nice to see you” is great, and if you want something complimentary, I think following the “compliment something the person chose” rule of thumb will serve you well:

        – “I love that sweater!”
        – “Great earrings!”
        – “Nice hat!”

        Reply ↓
      2. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Yeah, I’m in the other camp – do not tell me I look nice if I feel like crap. Seconding Hlao-roo’s recommendation to compliment things they have control over, or just offer a generally pleasant greeting.

        Reply ↓
    3. DJ*

      Your colleague may not have disclosed their cancer at work. So best not to say anything unless they mention it to you.
      Of course it’s harder to judge when colleague’s posts about it on social media. But still err on the side of caution.

      Reply ↓
  41. Mom of 3*

    Hi all,
    I currently work a part-time job, which I balance with my responsibilities as a mom of young kids. I am now in the final rounds of interviewing for a second part-time job; I feel passionate about the work and could definitely use any extra money possible, but I’m worried about balancing everything. Can anyone share there experience balancing two part-time jobs? I’m especially interested in hearing from other parents. Thanks!

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      I’m cringing reading this. I work one full-time job and have kids, and that’s tough. Having two part-time jobs is not the same as one full-time job- sometimes it’s more, sometimes it’s less.

      You’ll need to be really, really on top of your schedule. Especially if it’s a variable schedule. Have a calendar that’s accessible to everyone in the household (I even have a calendar for my kids, and my 8yo loves it. He sometimes reminds me of things on the calendar).

      You also need to have excellent communication with the other people that care for your kids (whether that’s your partner, family members, friends, babysitters, etc). Be really clear about needs and expectations. That includes the need for time off- when will you have time to recharge? What about your partner?

      You will be tired. Especially for the first few months after starting a new job. Set realistic expectations, then lower them. It’s okay to make boring meals that your kids complain about. It’s okay if your house isn’t totally clean. That mountain of clean laundry that never seems to get put away? Think of it as an energy saver, where you’re maximizing efficiency by not folding or putting it away. Give your kids age-appropriate chores (what this looks like depends on your individual details- what the kids already do, how much time they spend at home, etc). Maybe start a family movie night so you have a designated night where you order pizza and sit on the couch for 2 hours.
      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      1. Mom of 3*

        Thanks, I haven’t even been offered the job yet but I’m boggled as to how this might work. I already struggle to keep up with everything I want/need to do for my family and our home. Maybe it’s just because I’m under the weather today that it feels more daunting but it feels kind of impossible right now …

        Reply ↓
  42. closetpuritan*

    I started to put this in under the recent “3 business days” one but decided it was too much of a tangent. How’s this for “business days means whatever we say it means”?
    From a medical provider: “Please give 48 business hours notice if you need to cancel/reschedule. We are not open on Fridays. Therefore, changes for a Monday appointment must be made by the previous Wednesday. This common courtesy is appreciated by our patients who are in need of appointments, as well as our staff. All no-shows and late cancellations will be charged a non-refundable fee of $100.”

    So “we’re closed on Friday, therefore Friday is no longer a business day”. Also, “48 business hours” sounds like it could mean 6 business days, since there are 8 working hours in a standard business day. I feel like they could have found a less confusing explanation…

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      I am so confused by this. “We’re closed on Friday, so Friday is not a business day” makes sense to me,” but how are they defining a “business hour?” I’m reading the “changes for a Monday appointment must be made by the previous Wednesday” example to mean changes for an appointment on Monday, October 21 need to be made by Wednesday, October 16. That would make a “business hour” mean “any hour on a day when we are open for business” which is terribly confusing. “Two business days, Friday is not a business day for us” would be clearer.

      (Unless I’m way off base and they mean changes for a Monday, Oct. 21st appt should be made by Wednesday, Oct. 9th? That would fit with 48 business hours = 6 business days.)

      Reply ↓
      1. 2e asteroid*

        I think the intent is that “48 business hours” means “2 business days, but precisely timed to the hour of the appointment” (so if your appointment is at 3 PM on Wednesday you need to cancel by 3 PM on Monday). But I agree that it’s really confusing language that nobody should ever use.

        Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I really hope that’s just a typo and they just meant “48 hours”, because needing six working days’ notice to cancel an appointment is ridiculous.

      Reply ↓
    3. ferrina*

      That is really confusing. I’ve never seen business hours (also, wouldn’t ‘business hours’ only include hours of operation, so if you are open for 10 hours per day, that would be almost 5 days?)

      Just say 3-5 business days.

      Reply ↓
      1. ferrina*

        Sorry, reading fail. I missed that this was for appointments cancelation/rescheduling.

        Say 3 business days, and deal with the Friday internally. You’ll have to set aside time on Mondays to do a little extra work from the requests that came in on Friday while you were closed. Don’t make the Friday closures a client problem, because clients will do a bad job of solving it (plus it’s not a great client experience).

        Reply ↓
    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      Why on earth don’t they just say “To avoid a fee, cancel appointments 2 days in advance, and all Monday appointments need to be cancelled by Wednesday.”

      Reply ↓
    5. Zephy*

      Yeah, no, 48 business hours *is* six days, this office is tripping. Just make the cancellation policy no later than 1 week ahead of time.

      Reply ↓
    6. Lady Danbury*

      I recently ran into a similar use of “business hours” for the first time and had the exact same reaction. I assumed they meant hours in a business day (so 48 business hours is 2 days), not actual business hours, where 48 hours would be over a week. I hope this doesn’t become common because it’s both confusing and inaccurate.

      Reply ↓
    7. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I hate it when people mix conversation with arithmetic and lose clarity.

      Two days is sometimes 48 hours, sure, but sometimes 16 hours and sometimes 120 hours apparently. Which means you can’t automatically substitute.

      See also “half price” = “50% off” but “up to half price” and “up to 50% off” are opposites.

      “Two full business days (Mon-Thu)” would be clearer. But I think more generally the provider needs to suck it up if a client uses Friday as a business day for calculations. If they genuinely need two whole working days, say three. I think it more likely they may need to hustle.

      For what it’s worth, my hairdresser’s salon has a similar cancellation policy and a non-standard working week. They’re very upfront about both, including sending an automated reminder three days before your appointment that gives you the actual time you’d need to cancel by (eg “4pm Wednesday”).

      Reply ↓
    8. Noquestionsplease*

      This would literally make me change doctors. Like they could not IMMEDIATELY fill a cancellation from a waitlist of fifty people, but they have the gall to say we’re gonna charge you a hundred bucks if your kid is barfing the night before and you have to cancel? Uh-uh.

      Reply ↓
  43. Want to take a little trip on the company dime...*

    Ooh, I’ve been waiting for the Friday Forum! My creative team is having a rough time right now, and it has been suggested that we could use our training funds to do something to help morale. I know this is counter to most training which seems to be prioritizing online bootcamps for maximum productivity, but could anyone direct me toward some more entertaining workshops/retreats that could still vaguely qualify as training?

    Reply ↓
    1. Lisa*

      Gonna be “that gal” and say that a morale boost is not going to last if the things causing the team to have a rough time right now are still going to be in place after the event. I’m sure you could eventually find something the team might enjoy, but I’d personally probably prioritize what can be done to help the overall situation rather than what feels like a bandaid for a pulled muscle. :\ Hope you’re able to work thigns out!

      Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      Since you’re a creative team, I think that a trip to a high-end restaurant will provide expert insights on holistic client experience and executing on precision.
      Or a trip to a museum, to get inspired by other successful creators.
      Or an escape room, to practice thinking creatively under pressure.

      These are technically learning experiences, right?

      Reply ↓
    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Agree with Lisa that a one-off outing in the name of “morale” probably won’t do much of anything, but I say that as someone who works somewhere that there is no money for training and getting to do some PD would actually raise my morale a bit. Is there a reason the training money isn’t being used for actual training? i.e. is everyone as trained up as they possibly can be, are they not interested, etc.

      Reply ↓
    4. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      What’s causing the team to have a rough time right now?
      Is there training that can address the root issue of that roughness?
      If there aren’t hard skills to be learned to help, might there be soft skills that would help the team cope with the current difficulties?

      Make sure you’re not trying to spackle over the problems with the equivalent of a pizza party, but if you can offer meaningful training, don’t skimp on the catering.

      Reply ↓
    5. Megan R.*

      We brought in an improv group once to lead us through some improv scenarios. It was fun, morale-boosting, and we were able to personalize it to talk about some issues that we’d been experiencing in a lighthearted way.

      Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think those are two different things? By-laws are something that would have been created when the non-profit was formed, whereas an employee handbook should follow from how the org is generally going to operate and do its day-to-day work.

      Our employee handbook is mostly just a collated version of all our various org policies (e.g. conflict of interest policy, vacation policy, retirement policy, etc.) and as a result is mostly put together by HR based on decisions made by upper management. I wish it included more things about the day-to-day running of things, e.g. this is how you get office supplies, this is how you request ergonomic furniture, etc. because individual teams do their orientation and onboarding differently and I’d love for there to be some standardization.

      Reply ↓
      1. TCO*

        In my organization, policy changes have to be approved by the board, so we try to keep a reasonable bar for what qualifies as a policy and gets into the handbook (PTO, yes, supply requests, no). But we do document practices and processes separately to the extent we can; they just go into a document other than the official policy handbook.

        Reply ↓
    2. TCO*

      When I’m writing policy like this I look to other organizations’ documents when possible. Do you know any organizations willing to share?

      Reply ↓
    3. CTT*

      Contact a lawyer who specializes in those areas, especially the employee handbook. You could find a fill in form for the bylaws (although I don’t recommend it), but you could expose yourself to a lot of liability if you try to cobble together an employee handbook on your own

      Reply ↓
      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        +1

        The by-laws should have been drawn up when the non-profit was formed in the first place, so I’m not sure why the organization would be writing them now. Maybe this is a wholesale redrafting for some reason? There are standard templates that will be specific to your state, so you should hire a lawyer for this.

        As to the employee handbook, it should 9432879% be written by a lawyer.

        Suggest you look at councilofnonprofits dot org for resources state-specific contacts.

        Reply ↓
        1. handfulofbees*

          Cheers ty so much for that link! We’re spinning off from the parent org, so we’re having to get all our documentation hammered out with the new 501c3 status.

          Reply ↓
      2. Lady Danbury*

        +2

        As a lawyer, I get to clean things up when non-lawyers create stuff like that and it doesn’t comply with the law/best practice.

        Reply ↓
    4. HonorBox*

      There may be other organizations that are similar who might be willing to share bylaws that you could use as a building block, customizing them for your own needs.

      SHRM is a great resource for employee handbooks.

      Reply ↓
    5. Strive to Excel*

      Is this for an existing not-for-profit, or for starting a new one?

      Employee bylaws & policies tend to revolve around the following few subjects.
      * Employee codes of ethics, often industry-specific
      * HR policies (time off, conflict resolution, how to handle all the various bits of employee paperwork)
      * Non-discrimination regulations/other legal regulations, as may apply
      * Other policies that tend to be added situationally (social media policies, no soliciting, etc).

      There’s a book called Financial Management for Nonprofit Organizations, by Zietlow, Hankin, and Seidner. It is *drier than the Sahara*, but a good practical look at setting up processes for not for profits, including the basics of a code of ethics and bylaws. Actually, you can find a lot of information on how to set up bylaws and handbooks from accounting sources.
      The rest of it should be a description of how things work. So, for HR items (assuming you’ve got an HR person/company you’ve outsourced to/admin handling your payroll), work with them to figure out what process you’re actually doing and then that’s what should hit the handbook.
      Regulatory items – a lot of this should be able to be pulled directly from the regulatory bodies you are beholden to (EEOC, etc). If you’re not sure what to add, a legal consult could be helpful.

      Reply ↓
      1. handfulofbees*

        We’re spinning off from the parent org, so we need to create our own documents. That book looks fantastic, definitely something I need in my library.

        Reply ↓
  45. Busy Middle Manager*

    I don’t see anyone job hunting in the comments. Anyone else unemployed/searching? I have freelance opps here and there but I just finished one and looked at Indeed and it’s pretty bare these days when you exclude the perennially-posted ghost jobs I now recognize at first glance.
    I am not even seeing jobs to apply to, I can’t tap my network because everyone is dealing with layoffs and hiring freezes, and I’m not even big tech, but a mid-level white collar worker.

    To be frank, this week has been really bad psychologically because as a news junkie, I’ve been getting barraged with articles about how great the economy is and how stellar the labor market is and it hurts. I couldn’t even concentrate yesterday because it’s getting emotional. If I was unemployed and it was acknowledged the market is bad, I’d be in a much better state. But to feel like you’re crazy for noticing there are no actual jobs and then to constantly hear how you’re wrong/you must be doing something wrong – it’s a lot. Not to mention the salaries I do see are so low you can’t live within a 100 mile radius on them. I don’t know what the strategy is there. Is posting a ridiculously low salary some new form of ghost job?

    Reply ↓
    1. PivotTime*

      I can’t speak to ghost jobs but I can confirm that it’s hard out here looking for a job. I think we have to take the reports of “the economy is great- you should be able to get a job easily” with a boulder of salt. Maybe in some places there’s jobs that people can waltz into but you don’t see them and neither do I.
      It does get so disheartening- people often don’t understand that it’s a hard process and it kills the soul a bit when they ask: “why don’t you have a job yet? Have you tried X, Y,Z (which you probably already have tried)”. It comes across as condescending and when you’re trying to deal with your own mental stuff and emotions, other people’s well-meaning remarks makes it worse.
      I try to tell myself this: You’re doing what you can with what you’ve got.
      My therapist reminds me that even though I don’t have results I’m working towards them and it’ll happen.
      Please know you’re not alone out in the trenches. I wish you the best of luck and a new job coming into your life soon!

      Reply ↓
    2. Paint N Drip*

      Yes I’m job hunting in the white collar realm! Job opportunities seem to be slim in my world too, but I’m also often using Indeed which may be my issue – the RARE jobs that seem to pay enough (not WELL… enough) seem to disappear immediately, wtf does that mean? And YEAH the recent news/talk of the labor market surging and inflation slowing/reversing really put me in a bad mood -_-
      But anything is better than being underpaid with zero benefits, so I persist! Good luck to you

      Reply ↓
    3. HiddenT*

      I’m not unemployed but I am trying to get out of a crappy job and it feels impossible to even find job postings anymore without looking up specific companies and seeing what’s posted on their websites. If it’s not “ghost jobs” it’s scams, or “AI trainer” BS. It’s especially bad because I’m trying to switch industries and the one I want to get into is being hit really hard by companies pushing AI as the solution to everything. Most days it feels hopeless and like I’ll never get out of my current job. So you’re not alone, at all.

      Reply ↓
    4. JustaTech*

      I’m passively looking and I’ve noticed that too; the news says the economy is great and unemployment is low, and I believe that, but that doesn’t mean that the jobs that are available are jobs that I *want*.
      Like, I don’t want a manufacturing job in the Midwest, or a retail job in Texas, or an offshore oil rig job.
      So while there might be a lot of hiring in some industries, it’s absolutely not happening in all industries. But those big, broad, whole-economy numbers don’t show that.

      I did see a cartoon on FB yesterday that said that if companies claim to be hiring they get tax breaks and stuff, so they just pretend to have open positions but never actually hire anyone. I’m not going to believe something a talking mushroom tells me, but it’s an interesting hypothesis.

      Reply ↓
    5. Carls*

      I was unemployed for nearly a year before I found a job. I live in a HCOL area without a ton of local employers, and the nearest ‘big city’ is over 100 miles away. So many jobs I found had terrible pay and were essentially entry level, or were far above my experience and basically c-suite. I struggled to find roles in the mid-range market, and even when I felt like I checked every box for an opening, I’d hear nothing back from the employer.
      I will say I had some luck with local government or higher education. They tend to move at an absolute glacial pace, but they prioritize local hires since we already understand how much it costs to live here!
      The job I ended up accepting started as a temp-to-hire role through Robert Half. It was not a field I had been actively applying for, but the pay and benefits were good, and I discovered a previous coworker would be my peer there. It’s a huge relief to have a job again, but the adjustment to working full time after being unemployed for 11 months has been tough! Keep applying and go for the stretch roles – you never know!

      Reply ↓
  46. Ann O'Nemity*

    I promoted a top performer into a role they discovered they don’t like, and now their performance is struggling. Now what?

    More details:
    Last year, I promoted Jane to Assistant Manager. She had been a top performer and was eager to advance. The new role involved continuing some of her previous responsibilities, adding management duties, and taking on new tasks she hadn’t done before but was interested in learning. Our company policy requiring us to go through the full hiring process with multiple candidates and Jane was clearly the top choice.

    A year later, both Jane and I are dissatisfied. She enjoys her old tasks but dislikes the new responsibilities. As a result, Jane avoids the tasks she doesn’t like and prioritizes based on her preferences, sometimes disregarding explicit assignments. I regret that my decisions have turned a happy, high performer into someone who now disregards instructions.

    I’ve had multiple conversations with Jane and my manager, John, but I feel stuck. Jane to keep her title and salary but rewrite her job description around her preferences, which isn’t possible. Her old position is filled, and there’s no budget for additional hiring or promotions to take on the work Jane doesn’t like. If Jane had been an external candidate, I would have already had her on a PIP and/or coached her out. John wants me to retain Jane and doesn’t think a PIP is appropriate given Jane’s past performance and stellar reputation. I’ve tried coaching Jane to apply for other positions within the company, but she feels none of them are a good fit. Essentially, she’s seeking something that doesn’t exist.

    What should I do now?

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      “John wants me to retain Jane and doesn’t think a PIP is appropriate given Jane’s past performance and stellar reputation.”

      Isn’t that exactly the kind of employee a PIP should genuinely be for, someone who has been great in the past but is now slipping and you want to give them a chance to return to their previous high performance? I know people always think PIPs are the kiss of death, but this seems like exactly the kind of situation where they’re warranted when you genuinely want someone to improve.

      If you don’t think the PIP will change anything, then I do think you need to be honest with her about her future with the company, i.e. the role she wants doesn’t exist and her current performance is jeopardizing her continued employment.

      Reply ↓
    2. HonorBox*

      Go back to John. Paraphrase what you’ve said here. “John, this situation with Jane isn’t working. She is not doing her job, up to the point of disregarding explicit assignments just because she doesn’t like doing them. While we both know Jane’s history and recognize that she was a stellar employee before this promotion, I need to be able to address what’s happening presently. You and I both know that if she had been hired from the outside and she didn’t have history with us we’d have her on a PIP already.”

      Reply ↓
    3. M2*

      I think you talk to your boss again and say you will coach and have a serious conversation with Jane, but let her know if she continues to push off tasks she doesn’t like the next step is putting her on a PIP. We all have tasks we don’t like as part of our roles, but you need to do them. You need to explicitly say those tasks are part of her job and she must complete them and do them in a timely manner, if told to get them done by Thursday they need to be done by Thursday.

      I think you need to have an honest conversation with your boss and have the ok from them, then you sit down with Jane (with or without your boss present). Maybe give her 3 more months (it has been a year) and if you don’t see improvement on the skills she doesn’t do, then she will be put on a performance improvement plan. It gives her a heads up, so if she really doesn’t like it she can start looking for something new. She asked for this promotion and move, so she needs to figure out how to do the tasks she doesn’t like. She wasn’t forced in this role, she wanted it and you promoted her. Not every role is the right one for us, but if it isn’t right you should be looking for another one, not refusing to do work and expecting the same salary and title for less seniority.

      Can you train her? Is there a coach you could hire or some kind of development training you could send her to to help? Is there another department you can move her to?

      Reply ↓
      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Can you train her? Is there a coach you could hire or some kind of development training you could send her to to help? Is there another department you can move her to?

        Regarding training, the issue doesn’t seem to be about competence. Jane knows how to do the work, she just doesn’t like it. Or were you thinking about some kind of coach to work with Jane on her mindset?

        Regarding an internal move, Jane would need to apply to an open position. So far she has declined to do so. I worry that the longer this continues, Jane is risking her good reputation and that will make it harder to get hired by another department. At this point, I’m already dreading being asked to give Jane a reference.

        Reply ↓
        1. Paint N Drip*

          “I worry that the longer this continues, Jane is risking her good reputation and that will make it harder to get hired by another department. At this point, I’m already dreading being asked to give Jane a reference.”

          Are you able to explicitly relay this to Jane? I wonder if she understands both the gravity of the current underperformance AND the excellence you saw in her before (not that I’m suggesting you didn’t validate her historically, but the ‘choosing not to do tasks that she doesn’t like’ thing makes me wonder if she has some self-worth or imposter syndrome issues cropping up) Any time my boss has been really real with me like that, I have been able to snap out of whatever and perform better out of BOTH fear and shored-up confidence

          Reply ↓
          1. Jeneral*

            I agree with this. I could see myself in some situations becoming a Jane, and hearing this from my boss would absolutely have me getting my ducks in a row.

            Jane is probably engaging in wishful thinking about the role she’d love to have. With all the accolades she’s gotten in the past, the kind of role she wants probably seems realistic to at least ask for, especially if she’s not getting the full picture you’re giving us here.

            maybe if your boss continues to resist the PIP idea, you could put the problem in his lap, asking him if there’s money to hire someone to do what Jane doesn’t want to. Try to get him to be specific on what he suggests instead if your ideas are off the table.

            Reply ↓
    4. Antilles*

      First off, I’m going to note that your decision was a completely reasonable one. You had a top performing employee who wanted to advance, you went through the full hiring process, and she was the best candidate. So you really shouldn’t have regrets here because you did the best you could.
      As for options, the only real one is to put her on a PIP because she’s not performing the duties. Since your boss John seems to feel you owe her something for her past work, I’d suggest first giving her one more shot, where it’s laid out explicitly clear and firmly.
      Jane, the duties of Assistant Manager include X and Y. Even if you don’t like them, that’s part of the role and not optional. In light of your previous excellent work as a Staff Staffer, we’ve been giving you more grace about those items, but I’ll be honest: If you were an outside hire, you’d already be on a PIP due to your refusal to do X and Y. And if this continues, we’re going to have to take that PIP step and have some hard conversations. Can you start handling all the duties as required?

      Reply ↓
      1. Blue Pen*

        I totally agree. The LW shouldn’t be so hard on themselves; if Jane was performing well in her previous position and expressed interest then in advancing, you were right to promote her. It just didn’t work out this time, and that’s not something you should rake yourself over the coals for.

        I guess my question is if Jane has exhibited this kind of attitude before. Going from a high performer to someone who just flat out refuses to do a large portion of the responsibilities they’re paid to do is odd. Is Jane showing any interest in learning how to do her job better, or is she digging her feet in the sand and saying “take it or leave it.” If it’s the former, I’m all onboard the PIP train. But it sounds like she’s manipulating you and John a bit here if she’s flat out refusing to do a portion of her job and expressing no remorse over that. In that case, I think I’d be leaning toward cutting ties and finding someone who can actually do what the job requires.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ann O'Nemity*

          I have not seen Jane exhibit this kind of behavior before her promotion. I inherited her and she came with high praise. I managed her for a year when she was in her previous role and she was amazing. Like, winning company awards amazing (which is why my manager, John, doesn’t want to go the PIP route). I think a fundamental difference is that her old role involved a lot of autonomous and independent work, whereas her new role involves much more collaboration and customer interaction.

          Also, Jane is not flat-out refusing to do the work to my face. It’s more like she’ll miss deadlines on the types of work she doesn’t like, justify it by saying she was working on other work (the tasks she does like), apologize, and promise to do better. I’ve addressed it directly – that this is a trend that needs to stop, and Jane always promises to do better. But without real consequences, it’s getting worse instead of better. We’ve also have frank conversations and Jane admits she doesn’t love her role and the new work that comes with it, but ultimately says she wants to stay.

          Reply ↓
    5. Parenthesis Guy*

      Is someone else on your team a fit for Assistant Manager? If so, maybe you can just switch these two people around? Salary and title would be an issue, but…

      Otherwise, I think you feel stuck because you are stuck. John doesn’t want to get rid of Jane because of her previous performance. Jane doesn’t feel like there’s any need for her to do the parts of her job she doesn’t like. After a year, things aren’t going to change.

      I’m not sure a PIP is the right solution in this case. It’s not like Jane can’t perform. It’s that she doesn’t want to do this job. The best bet is to give her a few months or so to find something new.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tio*

        A PIP *could* work, if she views it as “we have moved from doing nothing to your performance to giving you serious notice that there are consequences to your attitude.” Because Jane might only be not doing things because… why should she? No one is giving her serious consequences for not doing it. That’s why I think you NEED a PIP now, because talking sternly at her is not going to work any better for the next 3 months than it has so far.

        It sucks that Jane is kind of taking advantage of this lack of consequences; it’s not a great look for her. But you need actual consequences at this point. Empty words are not making her change.

        Reply ↓
        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          What’s your end game?

          If she passes the PIP, she’s still miserable and in a position that doesn’t take advantage of her strengths. Sure, she may not want to be fired, but it doesn’t mean she’s happy here. Putting her on a PIP isn’t going to change that. Even if she does the work, she’s still a bad fit.

          And if she fails the PIP, well then everyone is unhappy.

          Reply ↓
      2. Ann O'Nemity*

        John and his manager will not approve another promotion due to budgetary constraints. It also would not be fair to the rest of the team for Jane to go back to lower level work while retaining her salary and title. Theoretically, a demotion could free up the higher level title and pay, but Jane won’t accept it. And no one thinks a demotion will work out long term, myself included.

        Reply ↓
        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          If someone else on your team is a fit for AM, they may welcome the chance to do some of those tasks even without the extra pay. It would mean that they’d probably leave after a year or two, or they’d expect to be promoted, but you’d be moving their career forward. It’s hard to get experience for those roles.

          Jane won company awards at the old role, so it may be she can add more value than the other team members doing lower level work. It could be that she does the harder tasks or maybe ask her to do more volume. In my field, something like that could be done. In yours, you would know better than me.

          It sounds like you’re in the common issue where you have an employee that’s doing great in their current job, but are unable to reward them appropriately or more than other employees that don’t win company awards. Jane feels like the only way to advance is to go into management and that’s not working towards her strengths. She needs a technical track that is comparable to at least high level management that doesn’t exist.

          It’s a challenge. There are no real good solutions. I think you need to focus on finding small incremental fixes to make things slightly better. I like your strategy of trying to coach her to different roles.

          Reply ↓
    6. WellRed*

      This is really on Jane to decide whether she wants the job or not. There’s always a risk in taking on a new role but we don’t get to say “I don’t like my new duties so I’ll just opt out if then.”

      Reply ↓
    7. Loreli*

      We’ll the new job is a double-whammy for Jane. One promotion would have been Jane’s old duties plus new duties she has to learn. Another promotion would be Jane’s old duties plus managing people (who are doing those same duties).

      Doing all three sounds unrealistic. Why was it decided to include new duties AND management in addition to old duties?

      Reply ↓
  47. Jaya*

    So coming up to the five-month anniversary of being jobless. I’m doing some interviews and another county job fair next week. One book I was reading recommended a recruiting agency called Specialisterne, so I’ve added my resume to that talent pool and hoping for the best. The gig was decent, though the last day was cut because of Hurricane Milton and I’m reminding myself it may be a one-time thing.

    Emotionally, I’m feeling like it’s very hard to put in effort when it feels like no effort will lead to a job. But I know that’s burnout talking so it’s a matter of fixing the burnout before the virtual interviews as well as keep applying and hope the luck turns. That and finishing up any freelance so as to get more income during the upcoming months.

    Reply ↓
    1. PivotTime*

      No advice here, just acknowledging that you’re not alone. I haven’t worked since mid-January, and going to school full-time was helpful, but now I’m stuck waiting for the last class of my degree to start and seriously looking for a job.
      I feel like a duck that’s trying to keep everything together on the surface but is paddling furiously underneath. I get so discouraged and my therapist has to remind me that even though I don’t have anything to show right now for my effort, I am doing my best.
      I also keep applying and hoping my luck turns soon.
      I wish you the best and am hopeful we both have a job soon.

      Reply ↓
  48. Green Goose*

    Would love advice. I work for a pretty rude and entitled boss at a corporation of about 2000. Our work requires us to do small projects with many different teams, people I don’t know well or at all, and may need to work with again in the future.
    My boss is indecisive, changes their mind, can be quite rude and expects all their demands to be made. I’m only planning on staying at this job for about another year so my main focus is building a network before I go, which is challenging when my boss makes our team a last minute, everything is urgent, and mind changing disaster. My boss also won’t take ownership of the chaos and has literally lied and blamed my coworkers and I for things they caused.
    There were two teams that were recently impacted by my boss setting a ridiculous deadline for something and then after they put in a lot of work, my boss changed the deadline with no apology or even acknowledging it.
    My question, my human side wants to say “hey I’m really sorry my boss did this” but since I don’t know them well, there is a risk in saying anything bad about my boss and it getting back to boss.
    Can I say anything? I also want them to know it was not MY decision and I’m also not happy about it. But maybe I have to say nothing?

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Is it likely that other teams know your boss sucks? I’ve worked under people like that and had colleagues who did as well, and we all knew how bad it was, so it easy to say “Sorry, I know it’s annoying to make these changes, you know how Fergus is” as a bit of commiseration because it wasn’t likely to make it back to the boss.

      Reply ↓
    2. PivotTime*

      I think you’re boss’ reputation is going to do a lot of talking for you. It’s obvious he has these obnoxious patterns and that everyone gets effected by them, so I’m guessing the other teams know that any work for your team won’t go smoothly. I’d say most of your colleagues already know that it’s not you or your colleagues messing up. The fact that he throws you and your colleagues under the bus is cowardly- the buck stops with him.
      If anyone asks you what’s going on or makes a comment to you or one of your team, then feel free to tell them the truth, but don’t underestimate that they already know who’s really to blame.

      Reply ↓
  49. Annie Edison*

    Looking for help coming up with phrasing for questions to ask at an upcoming interview:

    The job description includes things that would typically be several different jobs, or at least different areas of expertise. I can’t tell whether it’s a small business that doesn’t quite have enough workload to make a full-time position out of any one part of the description and have therefore rolled it all into one, or if their expectations and workload are going to be unreasonable, like expecting the results of a full-time content strategist while expecting someone to balance that as only 25% of the job description

    What questions can I ask to help suss that out at the interview?

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      “Usually I see these responsibilities listed under several different jobs- braiding llama hair being a llama groomer, spout shaping under the teapot design teams, and content strategy under the marketing team. Can you tell me a bit about why you chose to put them together?”

      Say it in a friendly and curious voice. You are interested in the job and their strategy! Their response will say a lot.

      Reply ↓
      2. Generic Name*

        This is a really good way to ask the question! I’ve seen more than once, especially at small companies where people wear a lot of hats, when someone who was doing a bunch of different things, they just make a list of everything they were doing and mash it up into a job posting, regardless of whether or not it makes sense (or is even possible to find) for someone to do all those tasks.

        Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Can you do some research online first to get a sense of the size of the company?

      At the interview, I’d probably ask something like “This job has a lot of different aspects to it, including [highlight two or three things you think are particularly silly to expect to find in a single person]. I’m really interested in X, but am wondering what percentage of the work is about X vs Y and Z.”

      Reply ↓
  50. Cyndi*

    I am an admin for a sole practice family attorney, and am his only employee. We’ve been in a real drought for new business lately. While my boss hasn’t said anything outright to me about my job stability, I have very little work to do lately and I’ve been thinking that I should probably start at least casually job hunting just to be safe.

    The other day I ran into a professional “friend” of ours–another family lawyer who used to rent office space next door to ours, and who we were on good terms with. He mentioned to me that he and his partner are very busy lately, have hired a second paralegal and are hiring for an admin. I hedged and said we have a bunch of divorce cases going but a lot of them are about to wrap up around the same time, and encouraged him to send us referrals if he has any.

    I’m not a strong networker, and if this other firm I’m already a bit familiar with is hiring for an admin, this seems like a really lucky opportunity to find something more stable. But I feel a professional obligation to my current firm to keep up the appearance that we’re doing well for business. Is there a way I can reach out and express interest in the other firm’s job opening (or even go “hey, if you know of anyone else hiring for legal admins–“) but still save face for my current firm?

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t think it’s your job to save face for your boss since it sounds like he’s not doing much to solve his case drought!

      Regardless of that, I think you can express interest in the other job and, if asked why you’re interested, you can say something like “Well, I’ve been with Fergus for X years and while I love working with him and our clients, the opportunity to move to a bigger firm with [more clients / more varied cases / opportunities for me to stretch my admin skills on different things / whatever] was one I didn’t want to pass up if it could be the right fit.”

      Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      Oh dear. He gave you a great opening for you to express your interest- when he said they were looking for another admin, you had a chance to say “I’m interested- let’s talk more”. Instead, you put in a plug for your current firm.

      Looking for a new role doesn’t immediately mean that the company is in trouble. It could just be that you are looking to expand your skills, or get a change of pace, or have a shorter commute, or avoid seeing an ex who works next door and who you accidentally spilled spaghetti on their head and then called them “cuter than Shirley Temple”. If people already suspect that your current firm is in trouble without you leaving, that’s not going to change if you stay. All you have to do is not say “this firm is in trouble.” Have a different stated reason for leaving (it can be the classic “I’ve been here for a while and I’m ready for a new challenge). That’s all you need to do.

      Reply ↓
    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      Do you have contact info for this guy? Just reach back out! “Hey Person, I was thinking about what you said about needing a new admin the other day, and I realized I’m actually ready for a change in scenery. Can I send you my resume?”

      Reply ↓
  51. DisneyChannelThis*

    How to say even though we share an office I’m not responsible for them?

    We have shared offices. I share with a man older than me, I am a woman. I think there is some gender playing into this maybe. We have email, slack, and cell phone numbers shared among everyone who works here. His job involves a lot of going all over the building, mine is much more sit at a desk and number crunch.

    I get at least 5 people a day asking me where my office mate Joe is, or asking me to pass messages to Joe. I want to maintain a reputation of being approachable and friendly for my own work , but I really do not have control of Joe’s calendar nor do I want it! I feel like broken record going “I don’t know where he is but if you message him in slack he usually replies instantly”. I also feel bad every time Joe comes back to the office I have multiple “___ is looking for you” messages to pass on, I have mentioned to him that I’m telling all these people to message him directly and they’re not listening. (He gets frustrated that I don’t have details on what they need. I don’t want to start taking down their information though! ). I get frustrated at getting interrupted just to answer questions on Joe’s whereabouts!

    I also get a lot of “Is Joe coming in today?” when my door’s open and he’s visibly not in the office, I don’t know his schedule, he has multiple small children with their assorted immune systems there’s a good chance he’s working from home with some new illness. I’m not his admin!!

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      Say less.

      “Where is Joe?”
      “Dunno”

      “When will Joe be in?”
      “I’m not sure”

      Don’t tell them how to get in contact with him. They already know. Don’t tell him that they were looking for him- let them tell him. It’s not your job to pass along messages.
      If they say “Can you tell him I was looking for him?” say “I don’t know if I’ll see him today. Sorry!” or even “I’m going to be honest, I’m not great at remembering ad hoc messages like this. Sorry.” The “Sorry” is great because it implies “no” without actually saying “no”

      Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think this is typical of “you share a space, therefore you know everything about them” expectation people have. People do this to me (woman) all the time with my female cubicle mate, i.e. is she in today, if yes do you know when she’ll be back, do you know if she’s in the Llama Grooming meeting, etc.

      I think you’re handling it the best way you can by telling people to message him on Slack. The only other thing I might suggest are a) if Slack has an “away” message feature he can update if he’s going to be away from his desk for more than an hour, or b) if your office has a door, an IN/OUT (or “in office”, “elsewhere on site”, “out of office”) thing he can use to show whether or not he’s actually in or not.

      Reply ↓
      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        My kingdom for a physical in out sign! That would help so much! No one would have to interrupt me to know he’s not here or that he is here but not in this room…. No one here uses them, my old office we had a whiteboard and you moved your magnet from In to Out as needed (weird fire drill headcount issues safety thing). Maybe we could be revolutionaries….

        Reply ↓
    3. Hlao-roo*

      I think as long as you answer in a friendly tone, you will still be seen as approachable and friendly. Keep up with the “I don’t know where he is, try slack” and “I don’t know if he’ll be in today, send him a message on slack” responses in an upbeat tone. If people ask you to pass on a message for him, say “I won’t remember by the time he comes back to the office, send him an email or slack instead” (again, in a friendly tone) and then don’t pass on any messages to Joe. They’ll either message him or they won’t.

      If there are any particularly frequent offenders, you might get good results from a big picture conversation. “Hey, Casey, you stop by three times a week asking me about Joe. As you’ve probably noticed, he frequently works in other parts of the building or from home. Can you please message him on slack to see if he’s in the office before coming to talk to him, so you don’t distract me from my work when you stop by and he’s not here?”

      Maybe talk to Joe too. He can also have “please message me on slack before coming to my office and bothering DisneyChannelThis–she’s not my admin” conversation with coworkers and hearing it from him will probably help a lot.

      Reply ↓
      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        I think with the friendly/approachable vibe concern, it’s that I’m ready to be less accommodating (My patience for you interrupted me to ask me where Joe is when clearly he is not in this room grows thin). I’m welcome to work interruptions regarding my work but not ones regarding Joe if that makes sense…

        I’ll try dropping the rope and not passing messages on anymore except from higher ups. I agree it needs to come from Joe! He’s very passive in general too.

        Reply ↓
    4. Insert Pun Here*

      Instead of agreeing to let him know that they stopped by, instead hand people a pen and paper and tell them they can leave him a note.

      Reply ↓
      1. A Significant Tree*

        Yes! Ask Joe to keep a pad and pen on his desk and just direct people to leave a note there if they want to.

        Reply ↓
    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      every time Joe comes back to the office I have multiple “___ is looking for you” messages to pass on

      You do not actually need to pass along any “X is looking for you” messages, though. You are his colleague, not his assistant, so you are not responsible for keeping track of who’s looking for him. You’re giving people the courtesy of reminding them that they can reach him by Slack or whatever. Do that with a smile, but your duty to Joe and your other co-workers ends there.

      Reply ↓
    6. Blue Pen*

      Have you told Joe all of this? If not, I might consider that (especially if it’s the same people asking)—he might be able to head that off at the pass with them individually so that you’re not put in this position.

      Reply ↓
    7. Parenthesis Guy*

      If Joe gets frustrated that you don’t know what people need, then simply stop telling Joe that people stopped by.

      If this bothers you so much, I would try wearing headphones. I may also try closing my door and tell teammates that they can just knock. Maybe people won’t bother as much if you look like you’re in the middle of a meeting.

      Reply ↓
    8. WorkerDrone*

      I’m not sure if you could do this at your work, but is your desk, by chance, facing the door? Can people easily make eye contact with you at the door?

      If so, my first suggestion would be to position yourself in such a way that you’re not immediately making eye contact with them. I have strategically placed my monitors and a big plant in such a way that I am still visible from the door – people can see I am there – but if they want to make eye contact or get my attention, they have to do so deliberately by coming farther into the office or knocking or something. I also deliberately do not break my focus when I see from the corner of my eye someone is at the door – I keep eyes to the screen, don’t greet them or look over until they’ve indicated their presence.

      I have found that has helped a TON. I don’t know why. I suspect because the mind moves quickly from, “Need to find Joe. Joe’s not here. Oh look, DisneyChannel is making eye contact, I’ll just ask.”

      When you introduce an obstacle, even the five seconds it takes to get your attention, it slows down the thought process to: “Need to find Joe. Joe’s not here. Oh look, DisneyChannel is over there, oh, but DisneyChannel is concentrating on something.”

      I also do that thing where I sloooooowly drag my attention away from what I was working on to re-focus. It’s a kind of non-verbal way of indicating, “ok, I was concentrating and now it’s broken”.

      And, finally, hard agree that you should say less. “I don’t know” is the only good response to any questions about where he is. If someone asks to pass along a message, I’d say, “Since I have no idea when I will see him, it’s much better if you email. Sorry!”

      Reply ↓
    9. Lady Lessa*

      I actually got into trouble at my college dorm for that same reason. My roommate was in and out a lot, and at least one girl would burst into the room and (without saying Hi to me and others) “Where’s Shelia?” I tried to handle it (poorly) by putting a note on the bathroom door, written in quasi-legal terminology that I was no longer responsible for knowing where Shelia was. She got upset and went to the dorm mother, and I got scolded. (There was also a little later a change in roommates, back to the one I had the year before.)

      Good luck, but can you talk to Joe’s boss for suggestions.

      Reply ↓
    10. Still*

      You have to make it very unsatisfying to ask you about Joe. Where is he? “Sorry, I don’t know.” Could you tell him…? “Oh, it’s safest if you message him directly!” Never give info. Never pass on messages. Teach people that they’re gaining nothing by asking you about Joe. Make it short and boring.

      The people who actually need to interact with you for work reasons will notice that you’re friendly and approachable where it counts.

      One thing that occurred to me is that asking about Joe might also be a form of small talk – the person has popped into your office and now they’re looking for something to say. Sometimes at the office, I catch myself asking questions just to break the silence (I know it’s not great, I’m trying to curb it). If you get a sense that it might be the case, and you’re open to a short chit-chat, you could try redirecting once – ask the person about themselves and see if they pick up on the change of topic, or if they really are focused on Joe.

      Reply ↓
  52. Abutte*

    I’ve been working in academic libraries for 15 years and am so sick of staring at screens all day and thinking about boring Cataloging related things. I fantasize about quitting and getting a job working on a farm or something, or even working retail which I know is crazy. Anyone have bright ideas for hands-on jobs with minimal computer/screen/sitting time that pay $60k+ and offer health insurance? (in USA)

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      The trades.

      It might take you a while to get to 60+ though. You’d start out on a pretty basic level and work an apprenticeship for a few years. A good plumber is never out of work.

      Reply ↓
    2. Ali + Nino*

      I also have a job where I look at screens the whole time! I wonder if taking up a completely hobby, as Alison recommended a few weeks ago, might alleviate the burnout?

      Reply ↓
    3. JustaTech*

      How about switching over to Preservation? When I worked in that department (I was fresh out of high school and not allowed to touch much) they did all kinds of rebinding and other repair and preservation work, which is very much physical and not on a screen.
      It’s all still inside, though.

      Reply ↓
    4. not my usual self*

      I’ve heard that the people who work on those giant windmills (wind farms?) make good money after a bit of training….

      Reply ↓
  53. AnonymousForThis*

    I am not going to lie. I really hate checking the mail in the office. Not email, I mean physical paper mail.

    This problem started during COVID at my previous employers. I work in accounting, and my current and previous two positions did NOT come with checking the mail as part of of my job. At my first previous employer, when COVID hit and we all started working from home, piles of mail would come to the office, but nobody checked since we worked from home and the administrative assistant position was eliminated. When we returned to hybrid (one day a week in the office), through no choice, the mail would just be sitting on my desk, sometimes 6 inches high. No joke. It was extremely anxiety inducing having to scan each mail or hand them to different departments one by one. It also wasted so much of my time when I was supposed to be getting other things done, especially when there was a deadline.

    The same thing happened at my second previous employer. I started that job in 2022 and we were hybrid, three times a month in the office on designated days. Again, inches of mail were forced on me.

    Now at my current employer, we had a front-desk employee at first, but she quit not so soon after I started (the timing of when she quit was just a coincidence). She would only give me mail that was accounting related and scan the rest to the other offices. But since she quit, her position has not been filled as of yet and again, now I have to check the mail. We don’t have a mailbox here so when the mailman comes and says “mail’s here”, I literally whisper under gritted teeth every day “f*** off” quiet enough. The only thing that alleviates this is that this job is in-office, so it would not be a week or a month of mail piled up since it is checked every day.

    I hate to sound like a Negative Nancy, but this problem has been festering for too long. It’s not that I hate it just because I do, but it wastes so much time going through the mail when I am supposed to be doing my accounting work. How do I get over this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Are they planning on re-hiring the admin role?

      Regardless, if you haven’t mentioned it to your boss, they may think you’re fine with it. Since you’re not, you could say something like “I was happy [lie] to pick up the slack for the incoming mail after Jane left, but it’s really taking up too much of my time and I won’t be able to do it going forward. Is there something else we could do to manage the mail differently?” Or whatever works based on how your office is.

      Reply ↓
    2. Abigail*

      Stop cursing under your breath no matter how confident you are nobody can hear you.

      Raise this to your boss as a workflow issue, not a personal annoyance.

      Reply ↓
    3. Insert Pun Here*

      Realistically this should be taking 10 minutes at most: you get the mail, you sort it by department, you put those piles in some designated location/internal mailbox. Someone from each department picks up their mail and distributes it further. This is how it’s worked everywhere I’ve been employed (generally offices of about 100 employees, give or take.) If this ten minute task is making it impossible to get the rest of your job done, then it’s not about the mail — you’re overworked, and the mail is a red herring. If, on the other hand, the mail procedure is more elaborate than what I’ve described here (like everyone gets handed their own mail by someone going desk-t0-desk with a mail cart or something bonkers like that) then yeah, this needs a dedicated person to handle it.

      Reply ↓
  54. Chirpy*

    Please send encouragement, my job search sucks and I don’t know how to find jobs I would be qualified for or good at, because I have weird qualifications and little experience, am 40, and am not sure I even want to try to work in any of those fields anymore anyway.

    Like, I can tell you what kind of working conditions I want, but not what kind of jobs would get me there. And sadly, those conditions are, like, fair pay, decent benefits, good hours, and nice coworkers. I keep finding entry level office jobs that pay less than my current retail job (which is $3/hr less than a living wage here) and I truly can’t afford a pay cut when I need to make $5k more than I do just to stay afloat.

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      What kinds of skills and qualifications do you have, even if you don’t want to work in those fields? You probably have transferrable skills and people can suggest options to you that utilize those skills.

      Your conditions aren’t really ones that are specific to any one field, so while those are going to be nice to haves that you’ll need to figure out at the interview stage, you need to get to an interview first, which can only happen if we figure out where you need to be applying based on what you can bring to the table.

      Reply ↓
      1. Chirpy*

        If I give the specific combination, it’s probably going to identify me, but basically, my degree is in Natural Resources, with a minor and some job experience in a completely unrelated arts type field that tends to have very few jobs at mostly nonprofits (and my only job here, which I lucked into, ended with the position being cut, specifically to get rid of me. I loved the work but the politics were awful).

        In theory, the best place to find a job would be, like, the state DNR, but I’ve never seen a job listing that wasn’t either director level, or part time summer jobs. I don’t have any references because everyone seems to leave jobs/cities after I do and I lose track of them.

        My other skills are so extremely random that I don’t see a good way to work them into a job, and am not as experienced as someone whose actual job would mainly be those things anyway. (and I mean *extremely* random, more like a eclectic collection of hobbies that I have occasionally been paid for.)

        Reply ↓
        1. The Unionizer Bunny*

          Etsy?

          If you can find the time and energy outside of work, begin exploring a “side hustle”. For you, I’m thinking “arts and crafts”. Etsy is where I see most of those.

          Transparency: pass 1, comment 4/6

          Reply ↓
          1. Chirpy*

            Retail is just so draining, I don’t really have enough time or energy to make Etsy a feasible solution. I know a few people with Etsy shops and they are basically only worth it if you can produce a lot of cheap stuff quickly, due to how the tax law changed. The things I would likely be selling are not things people on the internet are going to appreciate the hours that go into it. (plus, then there’s no time for my own projects!)

            Reply ↓
          2. Chirpy*

            Also, if you knew what one of my hobbies/ things I have occasionally been paid to make was…let’s just say they won’t fit in a standard USPS box….some wouldn’t have fit in the whole postal truck….

            Reply ↓
      2. Chirpy*

        I’m just basically that person that a lot of people thinks is interesting, and they wonder why I don’t have a good job or say I’m “wasting my potential”….but absolutely no one knows what to actually do with me.

        (and yeah, I have a lot of anxiety and job related trauma, so that doesn’t help.)

        Reply ↓
        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Right but like, are you good at logic puzzles? Solving problems? Customer service? There’s a big difference between what you went to school for and what you actually like doing or are good at.

          Reply ↓
          1. Chirpy*

            I’m good at arranging things. Not in a “cleaning” sort of way (I detest cleaning!!), I mean like, curating a really great playlist, or a display, etc. People have commented on this since I was a kid. But also I hate the idea of having to do it to a client’s standards for, like, house staging or something that would involve fashion. (The job where my position was cut involved displays, I had pretty free reign to design them, based on a theme.) I like solving puzzles. I’m incredibly burned out on customer service and kind of just people in general. I like nature. I like science but feel like more of an arts person. Would love to do film, but it’s just not feasible (both location wise and also no formal training.)

            Reply ↓
    2. Chirpy*

      Please, I just need encouragement. All conversations I’ve had with coworkers today are:
      1. management left a message asking me to fix something. It was broken Wednesday. I was not in yesterday and literally anyone in the store could do it. I have zero help today. A customer tried to help keep things from falling over, the only nice thing all day.
      2. coworker will not lift a finger to help if he thinks something is my department. He radioed me instead of scanning an item. I then had to call him back to help the customer because IT WAS HIS OWN DEPARTMENT
      3. department head, who has been in a different department today, scolded me for not doing a thing for the night person. Night person is perfectly capable of this and it’s his job. I was in the middle of something else.

      This is my only human interaction today, aside from taking customers to items. I just want to feel like *someone* thinks I’m worth even a little bit of kindness.

      Reply ↓
    3. Noquestionsplease*

      I KNOW YOUR PAIN. For a year and a half over Covid, paper mail became my job because I was the only one who showed up in person. It’s been two years, and finally, finally, I am DONE with other people’s paper mail. If it has their name on it, it goes in the main box and I am done with it. No more scanning, no more opening. Paper mail is a curse and you are absolutely within your rights to just leave it in a central location for other people to pick it up. Free yourself!

      Reply ↓
  55. Not Sharon*

    I’m autistic and in an obvious way, which means some people are visibly uncomfortable when alone with me and would look anywhere but in my direction when our paths about to cross. In the second scenario, I do make an effort to make eye contact and acknowledge the other person in some way, but if after 3-5 times they continue to avoid eye contact, I would follow suit.

    Recently, I found out one of the people who’s been avoiding eye contact with me complained in the vein that I’m mean or rude (exact words used not known, but based on what was said to me I concluded as much). Not that I would make a whole thing out of this, but am I justified in thinking “He started it”?

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      You can think “he started it” (and I fully agree that he did!), but don’t say that.

      Instead, you say “Oh no! I’m so sorry to hear that! Can you be more specific so I know how to improve?” You could add “I’m not really sure where this is coming from”, but it sounds like you do know, so that would be disingenuous.
      If (and ONLY if) they say “You need to make eye contact”, you can say “what do you recommend that I do if the other person is making eye contact? There are several people that don’t make eye contact with me- I don’t know if they don’t like eye contact in general, if they are uncomfortable with my autism, or if ti’s something else. Currently I’ve been following their lead to not make eye contact, but should I be handling that differently?”

      Reply ↓
    2. Megan R.*

      I’d second ferrina’s answer, and for the future, something that works for me is to make a smile face at someone’s chin whenever we pass. It’s close enough they don’t notice the lack of eye contact, and they think I’m super friendly.

      Reply ↓
  56. Area Woman*

    I work at a biotech company in a managerial role. In a crossfunctional meeting at 9 am this Monday, I was sitting next to a project manager. He smelled like he was drinking an alcoholic beverage. The smell would waft when he sighed or breathed, and the drink he had was icy (I could hear it). Not that it couldn’t have been iced coffee in a normal world but combined with the smell I am 99% sure he was drinking at 9 am Monday. I confided in one other friend at work, and they also told me in the past their office smelled like alcohol but that was a while ago. What do I do? I trust my HR representative but I also don’t want to start something just in case I am mistaken. His role does not involve scientific or medical decisions, or using anything other than a laptop computer. However he does drive to and from work, and probably drives his kids to/from school some days.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      Leave it. There’s medical conditions that can cause people’s breath to be unusual (Diabetes in particular, I believe). Unless he was actively behaving erratically, I wouldn’t push the subject.

      Reply ↓
    3. Hyaline*

      It’s possible you were just smelling cough syrup, other medication, something topical, or who knows, so I wouldn’t bring it up—but I would file this away and kind of keep an eye out for other issues, especially if safety or security could ever be an issue.

      Reply ↓
    4. Bitte Meddler*

      One of my neighbors is a “functional alcoholic”. He can be stone-cold sober at 10:00 AM and still reek of booze, because it’s coming out of his pores (and lungs) from his binge-drinking the night before.

      Since you don’t know for sure that the project manager is drinking alcohol at work, I’d let it go.

      Reply ↓
  57. Last Day Blues*

    Today is my last day at a job I’ve been at for over 5 years and I was an early employee (start up). Leaving is the right decision, but not the one I wanted to make. Changes done by the company that bought us severely affected me and it got to the point where my mental health was being affected, so it was time to go. However, I love all the people I work with and it really hurts to be leaving them all. It’s been a very tearful last week (on my side and theirs). Any advice on handling the emotions of this last day? I have a new job lined up with a little time off in between and I’d also like to enjoy that time for me.

    Reply ↓
    1. KitKat*

      I don’t really have advice here other than take it as it comes. I was in a similar boat a few years ago (though I wasn’t an early employee, it was a small company I’d been at 5 years and I left post-acquisition). It’s OK to cry in front of people, it’s normal to be sad right now! Trying to hide it too much might make it more difficult to navigate — personally when I try to stop myself crying, I always fail, then I’m embarrassed/ashamed, which makes me cry more…

      Enjoy your time off. Do what you can to disconnect and reset, and enjoy being the You that you are outside of work full time. Schedule some things (even just movie tickets or a video game binge) so you have something to look forward to. Try to stay off of devices if you’ll be tempted to check in on colleagues.

      Reply ↓
    2. DJ*

      Can you share contact details with them and advise you’d like to keep in touch. This may help you feel less emotional as you’ll feel you’ll at least keep up with some of them.

      Reply ↓
  58. Jennie*

    I work a service job where we are scheduled in shifts. Our manager usually doesn’t give us our schedule for the month until like 1-2 days before that month starts and it makes it really hard to ever make life plans in advance. Any suggestions for how we can ask to get the schedule earlier and how much earlier it’s reasonable to ask for it? (I should add that we do not have a union)

    Reply ↓
    1. Alex*

      I work a job with this same kind of situation, and the reason my boss sends it so late is because he has difficulty getting answers from OTHERS about what their schedule requests are, and if he just plows through without confirming people’s availability, he gets a lot of “oh but I have X on that day!” I will say that a lot of these people are young/students with a lot of other priorities so that is part of that issue.

      The point being that this may be a cultural issue more broadly. If you can get the majority of your coworkers on the same page, maybe approaching your boss with something like “What can we all do to make it easier to manage the schedule process” would work better than making a general request to him only.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        The solution is – any schedule requests turned in less than two weeks ahead of time also do not get accepted unless it is an emergency.

        Students get their schedules ahead of time too.

        Reply ↓
    2. HonorBox*

      I think you could ask them if there’s opportunity to get the schedule further in advance. And let them tell you why or why not. It could be that there are challenges for them, and knowing those, you and others could help them figure out a solution. For instance, if manager says they can’t because it has always been this way and they need to accommodate requests when building the schedule, perhaps the timeframe can be walked back slowly. Like if people have up to three days before schedule release to put in requests for time off, can you all agree to seven days? Then after a month or two, ten days? Then maybe 2 weeks? If there’s something that is causing the manager some grief in building the schedule, it might take a few minor adjustments from everyone to help them help you all.

      Reply ↓
    3. Lexi Vipond*

      Do you need to have a schedule for a whole month? Could it be published e.g. on the 16th of the month for the 1st-15th of the next month, and the 1st for the 16th-end?

      If people aren’t sure until the last week of the month what they’ll be doing in the last week of the next month, it should still allow for that, but without delaying the schedule for the start of the month.

      Reply ↓
  59. Second Breakfast*

    Am I insane to be considering a career in project management when I have ADHD?

    I’m drawn to the field because one of my favorite things about teaching was planning out lessons and units. I’m constantly setting up Notion and Trello boards for various projects, and my brain seems good at that kind of work. When I worked in educational research, my colleagues all thought I was super organized because I’m good at setting up systems that compensate for my symptoms. But in my personal life, I’m more of an absent-minded professor type. Medication helps a lot (and so does the accountability of a job), but I worry that I could get overwhelmed or let things fall through the cracks. Does anyone here with ADHD work in project management? Can it be done?

    On a related note, are PM certifications worth the money? I have been eyeing an offering from a local college, but wonder if I could scrap together something similar through Coursera or something

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think it depends on whether or not you want to be able to formally call yourself a Project Management Professional (PMP) or not. I took a project management certificate course ages ago but it was just an introduction to the topic and not prep for becoming a PMP, which is a separate thing that requires course work, work experience leading projects, etc. and taking an actual exam. A lot of project management jobs in my area require that you be an actual designated PMP, so enjoying making Trello boards and the like isn’t nearly enough to land those jobs.

      All that said: I’m 95% sure I have undiagnosed ADHD myself and while, like you, a lot of people think I’m super organized because I have to over compensate for my scattered brain, I found that the framework of project management as a way of working was something I didn’t actually like that much! It felt a lot like managing other people’s tasks that you’d expect them to stay on top of themselves, chasing people down for statuses, nagging people to get stuff done, etc. It felt like it was formalizing things people should be expected to do in their own jobs, which I kind of resented! So philosophically I struggle with it as a job, though like you I’m re-considering it because I need a better paying job.

      I’m also absolutely terrible at estimating how long things will take, and I know that’s something a lot of people with ADHD struggle with, so being able to create/manage critical paths, etc. seemed especially nightmarish to me.

      Reply ↓
    2. overly pedantic fluffball*

      not a Project Manager, but my company hires them. We look for the PMP certificate. Trello boards/coursera wouldn’t get you in for an interview.

      Reply ↓
  60. reject187*

    I’m a teacher and have worked as a department of 1 for the last 9 years. I recently moved to a new school and I’m part of a department. I want to figure out how to work with them, but there’s so much institutional knowledge that it’s hard to know what I don’t know.

    Recently a co-worker told me I need to stop being so self-isolating. I didn’t know I was even doing that! When I asked what I should do differently, the answer was “reach out.”

    Reader, I have been reaching out. Emails go unanswered, requests in person for resources get me redirected to ChatGPT, and any shared resources are inconsistent or not available. (ie – I can’t use the shared course unit test if I don’t know it exists and it’s not on our drive and no one told me we had one.)

    What am I doing wrong? Or any advice from someone who moved into a department after being a well-established independent worker would help.

    Thanks!

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think the first question to ask yourself is whether or not this person is representative of wider feelings towards you by the rest of the department, or if they’re just being weird.

      After that, I think maybe asking more open ended questions could be helpful? i.e. you can’t know to ask for the shared course unit test, but can you ask about shared resources in general? Also I’d talk to the department head about making sure you have access to all the digital things you need access to — I don’t work in Education, but at my workplace it’s not shocking for someone to get added to a SharePoint site three moths into their tenure that they absolutely needed to be added to on Day 1. People are astonishingly bad at remembering to onboard people to actual work resources, but hopefully your department head or whoever will have an idea of what those things should be.

      Also: did this person mean professionally or personally self-isolating? Because if they had said this to me, I probably would have wondered if I was missing a weekly coffee clatch or not getting into the donut pick-up rotation or not realising there was a monthly happy hour or whatever. So many teachers develop their own resources for their lesson plans that not reaching out about that stuff wouldn’t necessarily be weird to me.

      Reply ↓
  61. Lily Rowan*

    I’m doing reference checks, and emailed someone late on Wednesday to schedule a reference call. I haven’t heard back. When do I follow up with either the reference or the candidate (to confirm I have the email right, if nothing else)?

    Reply ↓
    1. Blue Pen*

      I guess it depends on how quickly you’re looking to fill the position, but I’d say either Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning.

      Reply ↓
  62. Cookies For Breakfast*

    If you have puzzling / funny networking stories that have made you question why you’re even trying, share them here!

    I’m trying to do the grownup thing of tapping into my network while job hunting. I made myself email a person I briefly overlapped with at OldJob to ask what his current workplace is like, because they have an interesting vacancy (on the advice of my Confident Male Partner, who said people message complete strangers, at least I’ve met this guy). My gut feeling is he’ll never reply, because I never had a single networking interaction go right in my life.

    There was the senior person from my Dream Industry, who enthusiastically asked for my CV at an event, when I said I was looking for a lateral move using my transferable project management skills. He passed it on to a contact he promised would help me…only for that person’s PA to send me the most impersonal email ever, telling me I should apply for their unpaid work experience.

    There was a contact’s personal friend, who worked in my exact same role at Dream Company, which isn’t easy to get into. My contact pre-warned her I’d be in touch (with an email she and I co-wrote), and she never, ever replied. Two years later, I went through a very puzzling interview process at Dream Company and realised it was probably to replace her (her LinkedIn profile said she’d just moved on). My guess is she didn’t like her job and didn’t want to tell me!

    Reply ↓
    1. Cedrus Libani*

      I’ve only gotten one interview that was strictly based on connections. I knew the company founder, he knew I was looking and also knew the company was hiring for exactly what I do, so he sent them my resume and told them to interview me.

      First interview. Peer levels, admitted they weren’t involved in the hiring decision, but they wanted to meet me. So we’ve got issues with our dinglehopper, it won’t hold calibration… Yeah, mine wouldn’t either, here’s how I fixed it.

      Second interview. Hiring manager walks in, then solemnly informs me that I have no experience with computers. This is a serious concern, as the job would require editing documents in Microsoft Office. In what might be the high-water mark of professionalism in my entire career, I do not ask the guy what bleeping rock he thinks I grew up under, rather I inform him that I have quite a lot of experience with Office, and does he have any specific areas of interest that I can speak to? Spent the next 20 minutes trying to convince the guy that I’d seen a Word document before, something he was very reluctant to accept.

      Then he asks about my driving record. Yes, I have a driver’s license, but I don’t know how to drive. He’s scandalized; I’m now visibly annoyed. How will I run errands during the work day? Generally I don’t, but I can walk, bike, or take a cab. Perhaps the male engineers can do their share of the hardware store runs?

      It turned out that HR had intervened. For the job I thought I was there for, both Windows and Office were “required”, but my resume listed neither. There was also a workshop assistant / go-fer position, for which these were merely “preferred”. The guy hadn’t read my resume, just took HR’s word: I was the unqualified friend of a VIP with no computer skills. Sigh.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Wow, I think I took Windows, MacOS, Office, and Google Suite off of my resume because they felt incredibly obvious. I guess I’ll just go put those back on, hey.

        Reply ↓
  63. Mixed_metaphor*

    About three years ago, a co-worker became interim boss of my group. I’d had a fine relationship with him as a co-worker, but he turned out to be the worst sort of micromanager. He was also the type who would throw any of us to the wolves to preserve his own position. And as a final straw he thought it was fine not just to use management materials from his church but to show us their videos at staff meetings.

    About a year ago, we got a new grand-boss who decided that our group would merge with another larger unit and the interim boss’s position was redundant (he’d return to co-worker level). Interim boss decided to take a stand by refusing to participate in planning what the new, merged group would look like, meaning that our group had no official voice in the re-org, which was very stressful at the time.

    I landed on my feet in the end – I’m very happy with how things turned out. Former-interim boss shot himself in the foot several more times and has been sidelined. He seems bitter.

    Despite this I can’t seem to shed the resentment I feel toward him. It took me a long time to get rid of the bad work and thought patterns I’d developed under his micromanagement. I’m uncomfortable with feeling this much loathing for a co-worker. I don’t even have to interact with him that often anymore, so I should be able to let bygones be bygones. Any advice on how to neutralize my feelings toward him?

    Reply ↓
    1. H.Regalis*

      Write a letter to him detailing every single thing you hate about him, be as mean as you want, and then burn it. Make a big ritual out of it.

      My other suggestion would be after doing that, find a new hobby/group/class/video game/tv show/sport/whatever to throw yourself into. You need something to fill the space that actively hating him is taking up.

      If you really can’t shake it, go see a counselor or a therapist to get some help dislodging this clown from your brain. You got away from him in the physical world. You shouldn’t have to be shackled to him the mental/emotional world either.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mixed_metaphor*

        Oh, this really is an issue only when I do see him – I’m not thinking of him outside work or even at work most days. Today I was seated next to him at a meeting and had to make small talk, so it was on my mind. I’d like to be able to chit chat with him and feel neutral toward him again.

        Reply ↓
        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          I mean – he screwed you over and caused you a lot of stress. I probably wouldn’t be up for chit chat with him, in your position. It would be “oh hey” + nod, and then I’d be very focused on the meeting.

          Don’t beat yourself up for having reasonable feelings about things that actually happened, and can very much be laid at this guy’s feet. Sometimes the consequence of being a bad manager is that your former team don’t like you very much.

          Reply ↓
        2. H.Regalis*

          I am so glad it’s only an issue at work!

          I agree with Mad Harry Crewe. This guy was awful to you. It’s perfectly natural for you not to like him anymore. As long as you’re civil, that’s enough. Don’t feel bad because you no longer want to be chummy with someone who screwed you over.

          Reply ↓
    2. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      Could it be that your gut is still seeing him as a danger to your well-being, even though he’s not in a position to harm you now? That could cause you to have a pretty strong aversion.

      Sometimes (but by no means always) acknowledging our feelings in the moment helps us just have them and move on but trying to quell them just makes them bigger.

      Reply ↓
  64. Mixed_metaphor*

    Also, he knew he was a micromanager. Multiple people, including is own boss, had talked to him about it. It was a point of pride for him. He couldn’t be convinced that it was harming his direct reports and our group’s work output. He thinks of it as being called out for caring too much.

    Reply ↓
  65. MissBliss*

    Is the job market difficult right now, or does it get harder to find jobs as you get further into your career? I have a decade of work experience with progressively more responsibility. I’ve applied for 13 jobs since July (including one last night), interviewed for 5 of them (including one this morning). Got to the final stages for two; one of them decided to “reconsider the position” and the other just let me know they are in the final stages of making a decision (but I’m not sure I want to work there because their communication has been lackluster). I’m applying mostly for director-level roles, which would be a lateral move for me in term of responsibility, but my title is technically that of an assistant director (but there has never been an actual director at my organization). I’m in fundraising, if that makes a difference.

    Reply ↓
    1. Mixed_metaphor*

      It is absolutely harder to find jobs the higher you climb, especially if you’re reaching for a higher title than you currently hold. Your application:interview ratio seems good.

      Reply ↓
    2. The gov't didn't manifest Milton*

      I’m also in fundraising but I’m not vying for Director roles, although I’ve done them in the past. I’m seeking Coordinator roles in operations and analytics.

      I’ve applied to 23, interviewed with 11; not selected to continue with 6; I opted out of 5.

      The last time I was job searching was in 2021. I landed the role in 3 months, but I didn’t have any other interviews during that time. Things have been much easier, in the non-profit sector, in previous years. I don’t know what the internal thinking and process is.

      Changes I’ve seen:
      – Better job descriptions with salary included
      – Longer time to close the process. I’m at 1.7 months with 1 week being the shortest; 4.5 mos the longest (for a brand name org)
      – Better overall response rates; only 30% never responded after application.

      I’ve been in non-profit for 20+ years and I’ve held every role in fundraising and then in programs, admin, volunteers, etc. Just how my career has unfolded. I’ve not had significant challenges finding a job in the past. This time it’s much harder. I’m also in a newish city to me and there aren’t many ways to make local connections.

      I’ve noticed that when I go back to see who they hired either on their website or LinkedIn (which isn’t always current), I can’t see that they hired someone. So I don’t know if they reconsidered or what happened.

      Reply ↓
    3. Blue Pen*

      100% harder the higher you go; especially if you’re coming from a different company and you don’t have that experience/trust baked in.

      Reply ↓
  66. Sigh*

    There’s a company I’ve always admired. They are medium size but seem to act like a mom n pop family. I recently heard they had a restructure and I would like to reach out for a possible position. It’s a long shot as I am out of state but my understanding is they do a lot of remote work. The problem- they were right in the middle of Florida’s Milton and Helene disaster. Thanfully everything survived / still standing/ minimal damage but the company is in chaos mode. They are estimating at least 1-3 months before they are operational again. Like many of their followers And admirers I’d love to reach out to let them know they are in my thoughts. Selfishly I am contemplating when is a good time to send in my resume.

    Reply ↓
  67. cactus lady*

    Need some help with keeping holiday PTO equitable. I have three employees, plus myself. Minimum staffing is two people – everyone is aware of this and we have a shared PTO calendar that folks are expected to consult before submitting requests.

    One employee requested Thanksgiving week off months ago and I have approved (it is in our shared PTO calendar). I have another employee who is close to maxing out their PTO and I have been working with them on using it (they came from an org where they were actively discouraged from taking time off and it was rarely approved, so it’s a mindset thing more than a workload thing), and one thing I suggested was for them to take Thanksgiving week, which they said they would think about.

    My third employee does not usually ask for time off at Thanksgiving, and (like me) doesn’t really carry a PTO balance because they use all of it. However, their sibling recently had a baby and I heard in passing they were planning to take some time off in late November to visit them. Neither employee #2 nor #3 has submitted a request or marked anything on the PTO calendar.

    My question – is it equitable to prioritize a PTO request from the employee who is close to maxing out? We already have two-week winter closure in December/January so this is the only holiday where I need to worry about coverage. Thoughts?

    Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      Do you already have a practice in place? If so, follow that.

      It’s perfectly reasonable to say “The PTO calendar is first come, first serve.” and stick to that. If applicable, emphasize that it is better to book days that they aren’t sure about and give the days back if they don’t end up wanting them, than waiting until the last minute and maybe not get the days that they want. If the employee that is close to maxing out still doesn’t add anything, that’s their choice.

      Reply ↓
    3. Cordelia*

      I’d ask the one who was planning to visit the sibling if they specifically want Thanksgiving, and if so I’d let them have it. It doesn’t sound like the other one particularly wanted Thanksgiving week specifically, and it doesn’t seem very fair if they get preferential treatment for being bad at managing their PTO.

      Reply ↓
    4. Admin of Sys*

      If you have already talked to the employee that is close to maxing their time out, I would say it’s appropriate to nudge them to get in the request soon. If they beat the other employee to the dates in question, that resolves the issue.
      That said, I’ve always found a ‘first dibs’ process for holidays immensely distasteful, as it can offer unfair advantages to people who have more organized families or less complicated situations.
      Is there an option to prep a conversation for next year along the lines of ‘regular rotations’ so that who gets what holidays off cycles regularly, with the option that people can voluntarily switch if something comes up? That’s how our office manages it.

      Reply ↓
    5. HonorBox*

      When does your PTO reset? Is it January 1? Just thinking about the person who is almost maxed out and what time they might have left / what additional time they might take.

      I think you could go one of two ways with this. You could talk to the third employee and mention that you heard that they were thinking of taking time, and encourage them to decide on that quickly because one person already has time at Thanksgiving off.

      Or you could just send out a quick reminder email that with holidays coming up, PTO requests are first-come, first-serve but that you will be comparing the requests to accrued time available, given that PTO resets on _______.

      Reply ↓
    6. Parenthesis Guy*

      It is equitable to prioritize his PTO request for an average week. It’s not equitable to prioritize his request for Thanksgiving week.

      If Employee #2 doesn’t care when he takes PTO giving him the prime week doesn’t make sense. Instead, ask him to take off time a different week. Either add a week to the Dec/Jan vacation or take a week off in early November. Doesn’t matter. Prioritize giving him a chance to take PTO but not when everyone wants.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bitte Meddler*

        Yeah, this.

        Why push Employee #2 to take Thanksgiving week off? If he needs to burn PTO, it would make sense for him to take a non-holiday week off.

        Reply ↓
    7. Qwerty*

      You need to follow your process. If you’ve been doing it by first request, it’ll look like you are deviating to avoid giving it to someone.

      To avoid future scenarios like this, I also my team to submit estimates of their PTO for the rest of the year at that start of the quarter. It doesn’t have to be exact dates, but it helps us figuring out what the popular time are. It also means that if someone fails to plan, they know that I am not going to give them priority on their request. We have a use-it-or-lose-it rule, so teams were getting to December and having everyone want to take the month off to avoid losing their PTO. Now my team actually takes vacations regularly

      For the popular times, we set a deadline and then meet to negotiate. Next week my team will negotiate Thanksgiving / Christmas time if there are any overlapping requests. Previous teams usually did something similar for summer vacations

      Reply ↓
  68. Still Learning*

    New gig, and my coworker does the opposite of/weird version of what our boss asks lately. Or does a step delayed or 10x too early, more weird than anything. Normally I wouldn’t care, except now it potentially may impact me (tangentially) since I’m supposed to relay where we are in processes and they’re unilaterally skipping steps. But also our boss and others are away today and nobody’s here till next week. WWYD? I’m very tempted to ask why the need to be so contrary but…it’s also not my job to supervise.

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      You should talk to your boss directly. Since you’re new, you can more easily frame this as a “maybe because I’m new, I just don’t understand this…” sort of situation. And you can express that you’re concerned because there are steps being skipped, delays in steps, or tasks that are different than what the boss asks. Ask them how you should proceed around this person because you want to be able to deliver and be successful.

      Reply ↓
    2. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      What does that coworker say when you ask why they started doing it that way rather than boss’s way? This is something I would intentionally ask with a tone of intrigue, like maybe they’ve discovered a miraculously new efficient way of doing it.

      Reply ↓
  69. Peter*

    Sharing Resource – For People Affected by the Recent Disasters

    Disaster Distress Hotline

    The Disaster Distress Helpline (DDH) is the first national hotline dedicated to providing year-round disaster crisis counseling. This toll-free, multilingual, crisis support service is available 24/7 to all residents in the U.S. and its territories who are experiencing emotional distress related to natural or human-caused disasters.
    Call or text 1-800-985-5990.
    Link: https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/disaster-distress-helpline

    If you are deaf or hard of hearing and use American Sign Language (ASL), use your mobile device to call 1-800-985-5990 or click on “ASL Now” at disasterdistress.samhsa.gov (samhsa.gov/find-help/disaster-distress-helpline) to contact an ASL fluent crisis worker.

    Reply ↓
  70. Heather*

    For the Frugal/Struggling Coworker, I would personally ask to eat lunch together one day and just name it as a “me” problem”.
    For example: “Hi Susan, I wanted to let you know that you keep commenting on my lunch choices, vehicle, purchases, etc. and it is making me uncomfortable. I don’t know if you are doing it out of concern for me, frustration, or some other emotion but your comments about my food and spending need to stop.
    If she says that she is only looking out for you or that she has some kind of moral aversion to spending, you can reply that her values are respected but you are not interested in her commentary any longer.
    Suppose she opens up and says she is struggling financially. In that case, you can ask if she wants information on programs that can be of some help that are free to utilize. If she says, “Yes”, tell her about the groups again and maybe show her how to use them. If she says “no”, drop it.
    -If she brings it up again after you have told her to stop talking about your choices, bring it to your boss.

    Reply ↓
  71. Borealis*

    At what point do you give up on a company?

    After ten internal applications for the same job (across a couple departments) – and coming in second or third after the chosen (external) candidates every time – I feel like I’m at that point with my current job. I’m so tired.

    Reply ↓
    1. Czhorat*

      If you didn’t get the job the first time it’s worth trying again. If you didn’t get it the third time then you probably aren’t going to.

      For internal things you could always ask what you need to do in order to be a candidate for the next opportunity to move up, but you have long since past the point at which it’s clear that the path up leads out the door.

      Reply ↓
      1. Borealis*

        That’s… pretty much where I’m at. I’ve always asked for feedback, and it’s either “you were great and there’s nothing to improve on, this other person just had [x]” or I was ghosted and they stopped replying to me. Unfortunately I work shift, so many times I can’t find the person and talk to them in person because I’m working and they’re off.

        I’ve definitely come to the conclusion it’s time to leave, and I’m actively working on it. The market where I am is terrible and moving isn’t an option. Hearing the commentariat confirm that is validating.

        Reply ↓
        1. Czhorat*

          “you’re great and there’s nothing to improve on” is the absolute WORST feedback to get if you have ambitions to move up. It doesn’t give you any path to improve, and clearly you *aren’t* great or you’d have gotten one of the ten (!) promotions you applied for.

          If you want more than the job you have now it’s time to polish off the resume and ship it around. The good thing about having a job is that you can afford to be patient; even in a bad job market sometimes people leave, sometimes companies find a sudden need.

          Good luck

          Reply ↓
          1. Borealis*

            I can’t tell you how BADLY I needed to read that first paragraph, thank you so much. It really feels so reassuring to have someone not in my head saying that.

            I honestly wish someone had told me, kindly but truthfully, that it wasn’t going to happen here a long time ago. I’ve done (and been told I excelled in) interviews conducted mid-night shift, where I’ve only had two hours of sleep in a twenty-four hour period. Multiple times. I just can’t do it anymore.

            Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Apply for internal opportunities, but also look outside. Don’t assume you have any job (including internal jobs) until you actually have the job.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        I second applying to both internal and external jobs. Being the second or third choice doesn’t mean you would be a bad fit for that position, it just means there was someone who was a better fit available.

        Because the positions you applied for were internal, can you talk to any of those hiring managers and ask what skills/experience/etc. the successful candidates had that you don’t? Maybe it was something different each time, but maybe all the external candidates had skill X that you don’t have. Then you can see if there’s any way for you to develop skill X while you’re still in your current role.

        Reply ↓
        1. Borealis*

          I responded above, but in short I’ve been asking for feedback and either receiving nothing useful, or I’ve been ghosted every time (My company is kind of awful for a variety of reasons, this is very much the tip of the iceberg).

          Much as I would love to take on projects that would help me develop the skills I’ve been coming up short, my current role isn’t one where that’s feasible. I’m currently in a technician-type role, where I’m doing things adjacent to where I want to go without actually being able to build those skills. On top of that, I’m being trained in two areas of responsibility in my current job (both very high risk, high responsibility), and I don’t have the time or energy left to pursue projects I know I can’t be part of. I’ve openly broadcast my intentions to leave the company and the fact that I’m looking but until that happens I want to at least do a decent enough job to get a good reference.

          Reply ↓
          1. ferrina*

            Yeah, you’re probably stuck at your current company. It sounds like they aren’t giving you the needed experience that would make you a strong candidate in other roles. They simply aren’t helping you grow your career.

            Keep doing a good job at your current role, keep applying to internal jobs as they come up, and widen the net to external roles. If you’ve applied to the same internal posting 10 times, they know you are interested in growing. If they want you to grow at their company, they know how to make that opportunity. If not, they shouldn’t be surprised when you choose to grow elsewhere.

            Reply ↓
        2. Czhorat*

          If you’re the second choice 10 times in a row then you’re not a likely to get anything different the 11th time; it would make me question whether I was truly second-best, or if that’s a polite fiction they told me.

          Reply ↓
          1. Hlao-roo*

            You’re right, my advice is better suited for a “second best after 3 applications” scenario, not 10 applications.

            @Borealis, sorry your current company is like this. I hope you have some good luck with your external applications soon!

            Reply ↓
  72. HSE Compliance*

    TLDR: What are some options for me to reroute a higher up when they get on a “your predecessor did this” when predecessor was fired for a reason?

    I started a new role a handful of months ago, and the people that I replaced (two roles were reworked into two roles, both of us are new) were fired for cause. From what I know (and can find evidence for) it was definitely performance based. There’s a LOT missing in this program and a lot the previous two people were doing that either were completely incorrect or unnecessary, but probably looked okay if you don’t know the topic/field.

    Unfortunately enough for the two of us newbies, someone pretty high up is really stuck on “but Previous Person did this” for the most inane of things, and often for something that Previous Person(s) weren’t actually doing.

    The little chaos gremlin in my brain usually suggests “okay, well, that person was fired for a reason” or “that’s not accurate” but that’s less professional than I would like to be, of course. What are some better ways to get this guy off of this kick, preferably without sounding like a complete broken record?

    FWIW: Both of us were explicitly hired to improve the program and get the business into a more compliant, sustainable place.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      Redirect onto why your way is better. If someone says “Previous Person did this”, you have “our regulatory restrictions require us to do X”, “doing Y shortens our billing cycle”, etc. For really trivial things I roll my eyes and do what the higherup wants, because “Previous Person did this” is code for “I don’t really want to put in the work to change my process”. Save your initial ammo for the important things, and then chip away at it over time.

      Reply ↓
    2. Butt in Seat*

      “Thanks for letting me know. That isn’t something I am doing/am able to do right now, but since part of my mandate from my boss is to evaluate what we *are* doing for this program, I’ll put it in the list for consideration.”

      And then just… consider that you aren’t going to do it. Redirect to your boss as necessary.

      Reply ↓
    3. Mad Harry Crewe*

      “Thank you” is a great conversation-ender. “Oh, thanks for letting me know. We’re currently reviewing the Llama program, I’ll make sure to take that into consideration.” (Truthful – you considered and decided it was a terrible idea.) “Oh, thanks! I’ll make a note of that.” “Thank you, it’s great to have context while we figure out our next steps for the Llama program.”

      I also wouldn’t reject sounding like a broken record. As long as you sound polite (rather than rude or bored), you can respond with more or less the same thing over and over.

      Reply ↓
  73. Heffalump*

    Some years ago, I was taking a night class. One night we had a woman from the state Department of Employment Security as a guest speaker. At one point she told a story I thought was interesting:

    They would often see the following situation: An older man who’s been running his business as a sole proprietor for some years hires his first employee ever. At some point the employer gets totally frustrated and cries out, “You’re fired, never darken my door again!” The employee comes in to apply for unemployment benefits and has no idea why they were fired.

    Some years later I took a community-college course titled Oral Communication in the Workplace. One day I told this story, and the instructor said, “Bingo!”

    Has anyone ever experienced this situation, as an employee or an employer? If so, did you have any insights after the fact?

    Reply ↓
  74. Everbody's Go-To Girl*

    I’m a high-level admin. For the most part I love the job, but feel like lately I’ve gone from being support staff to baby sitter.

    First there’s the contractor. He’s got a 7 figure contract with the company I work for. He should be able to check his own email. Yet he chided me (by email for my managers to read) for not sending him a text message to let him know that our company had sent him a time-sensitive email. Now my managers demand that I text him (from my personal cell) every time we send him an email.

    Then there’s the architect who reads about 50% of his emails. I always have to follow-up with them the next day to make sure they got our message.

    There’s one project manager on staff who hates completing their timesheets. It’s bad enough that it frequently holds me up from processing payroll. The only time I can get higher-ups involved is if it holds up billing. In order to even get the timesheet process started with this person is if I start the timesheet for them–create a new sheet from the template, add the work dates, add the job number and delivery order numbers I assume they worked on, etc.

    On top of all of that, there’s a small office full of people who don’t know how to clean-up after themselves, leaving food or food debris laying around. Now there’s an ant problem in the office.

    Sorry, just ranting because sometimes I feel like I’m the only adult in the room.

    Reply ↓
    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Well, for the person who doesn’t do their timesheet, just don’t pay them. Then when they complain, ask if they submitted their time sheet.

      The rest of it, I’m sorry. I don’t tolerate incompetence well.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        In the US, it’s generally illegal to withhold people’s pay for any reason (including not filling out timesheets). There was a previous post on this exact question:

        “Can I hold people’s paychecks until they turn in their time sheets?” from January 30, 2016 (#3 on a short answer post).

        Everbody’s Go-To Girl, sorry you’re in such a tough office. It does sound like you’re the only adult in the room there :(

        Reply ↓
      2. Donn*

        This may be pretty common, but I know of at least one company that enforced the professionals’ timesheet compliance by turning off their’ direct deposit, and issuing a physical check instead.

        Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      “Now my managers demand that I text him (from my personal cell) every time we send him an email.”

      I know you know this, but this is ridiculous.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        This is harder to walk back if you’re already doing it, but “Oh I’m sorry, I never use my personal devices for work” is my hard line.

        Go-To Girl, maybe it’s time to leave your cell phone at home or conveniently uncharged during the work day for a few weeks? “Oh, I’ve found it so distracting to have my phone, it’s really nice to be unplugged during the work day.”

        Reply ↓
    3. HonorBox*

      I’m sorry that you are working with immature people. Ideally, you’d be able to suggest to your managers that contractor should be able to manage his communication and not have to rely on texts following up on every message. You could at least ask for some sort of phone stipend because if you don’t otherwise use your personal phone for work, why should you be expected to without reimbursement of some sort. That might put a hard stop to the situation. Also, if others are sending email, THEY should be following up… not you.

      Regarding the time sheets, can you push back a little bit and highlight the time you’re investing in this? They’re paying you to do what someone else should be capable of doing if the PM wants to be paid. Also, you might highlight that you’re ASSUMING some things because you don’t have all the information you’d need to do it correctly, so there may be errors and cost overruns because of that.

      Reply ↓
    4. DJ*

      Do you have a manager you can discuss this with around what is and isn’t your role. Point out you won’t be able to get your actual work done if you have to attend to such ridiculous things that adults who claim they are intelligent can’t seem to do. But if you are expected to do these things prioritise i.e. with not being able to withhold pay you may need to keep starting lazy coworker’s time sheet. Ask for a work cell phone to text people reminders. Suggest a cleaner for the kitchen.
      Sorry you have to work with such lazy pigs.

      Reply ↓
      1. Everbody's Go-To Girl*

        Thanks to everyone who replied.

        I just needed to vent today. Thanks for listening. The company has a lot of issues and the last few weeks have just be tough to deal with.

        Reply ↓
    5. Noquestionsplease*

      Do we all not do 150% of our job without babysitting functional adults (usually men)? I am so sorry. 1) Contractor/Manager issue: Manager, I am not responsible for managing contractor. Contractor can reach out to Project Manager if they think they are missing something. 2) Architect: Leave him dangling in the wind. Not your responsbility to ask if they’ve received the email. Turn on READ RECEIPT for any emails you sent him. Project Manager Timesheets: Throw him to the HR wolves. “Dear PM, please check with HR if you are having issues with your timesheet status.”
      I am SO SICK of grown ups pretending they’re helpless. They are not. Don’t do their work for them,

      Reply ↓
  75. epicdemiologist*

    I am in a really peculiar (but possibly not unique?) position.

    A few years ago I was in a full-time non-exempt staff position working on a grant-funded project at a university. I did well in the job, but the situation was not good and I left after 3 years.

    After an interval during which there was a complete management and staff turnover, my old position came open again and I applied and was hired; I’ve been there for 9 months and things are wonderful–responsive, committed management, clear guidelines, good working conditions.

    My problem is that the new version of my position is exempt (for reasons of required qualifications, not supervisiory responsibilities–I have none). I’m still struggling to adjust to the structure. Although the workload fluctuates a good deal, it’s very predictable; deliverables and due dates are set before the beginning of the grant year. Some weeks I don’t have 20 hours worth of work to do. Other weeks it might go as high as 40 but not over (and if it did go over, I’m not physically robust enough to do more than 40 hours in a week). I find myself doing make-work half the time, and deliberately not implementing things that would make the workflow more efficient, just because I feel I MUST be on duty for that 40 hours.

    Has anyone else had a similar struggle? How did you handle it?

    Reply ↓
    1. EMP*

      It’s normal for an exempt position to have fluctuating needs but going from 20 to 40 is a lot. Can you just quietly leave a little early (like…an hour, not half a day) on some of the 20 hour weeks? Find a side project to keep busy? I’ve never been in your exact situation but I’ve been underutilized in an exempt position before and the boredom is REAL.

      Reply ↓
    2. I Can Never Remember My Previous Nicknames*

      This is basically my life during the summer, a lot of my job relies on communicating with folks who will go out-of-contact for days to weeks at a time, and I can’t start certain processes without their input. So it’s a lot of hurry-up-and-wait, hurry-up-and-wait. I fill the time with self-assigned projects. I generate reports, I do virtual trainings, I try to get anything done “ahead of time” that I can. Sometimes that means doing double-work. It can suck. But the alternative of being in a nonstop, toxic, unsustainable environment (aka my previous job) keeps me from going stir-crazy.

      Also, do some writing. Seeing as you’re in a university, it totally makes sense to write and research in your field with intent to publish.

      Reply ↓
    3. DJ*

      On the light weeks is there prep/advance work you can do for the busy weeks to even things out and stop those weeks going over 40 hours. Is there work you can do that will save you down the track. Or work that is nice to do that will help your actual work in the future e.g. organising your documents/files so easier to find.

      Otherwise is it OK to work short days during the quiet times.

      Reply ↓
    4. MeaningOfExempt*

      Do you know the expectations for your position? Every job I’ve ever had has been exempt. Every single one of them expected a minimum of 40 hours/week unless some form of time off was used. Exempt is about whether they have to pay you for your overtime. It is not an automatic agreement to work fewer hours even if your assigned tasks take less time

      Reply ↓
  76. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    How do hourly employees track time for a conference?
    I work at a state university as an hourly non-exempt employee. The majority of the department is salaried. A bunch of us from our department and a few other departments will be traveling to another city for a conference. It is a 1 day event but we will need to leave around 6:30 to get to the conference by 8:30. Conference ends around 3:30 so it will probably be around 6 before getting back to campus.
    I’m wondering how hourly employees like myself should track their hours. We are not allowed to do overtime without prior permission from HR, which probably would be denied. Do we count the time on the bus to and from the conference?
    In the situation where you have a

    Reply ↓
    1. Ceanothus*

      I would ask my supervisor — say that you think that drive time will take you a fair bit over 8 hours and ask how that’s normally handled.

      FYI: I work for a state government, and while it’s not 100% in keeping with our state’s employment law, I often ask if I can flex that time sometime later in the week — if there’s not a process in place, that’s often an easy fix for a supervisor to use.

      Reply ↓
    2. HonorBox*

      I asked this question for some employees who are similar. What I was told is that travel time during the time you’d regularly be clocked in is “on the clock” but travel time outside of those hours is not, provided you’re not on your laptop or phone doing work. The only time travel time would count is if you’re the one driving. So if you’re on the bus early and after hours, you would be off the clock.

      Reply ↓
      1. HonorBox*

        Adding: That information came from someone with our local Department of Labor office.

        Now, if I’m your supervisor, I’d probably encourage you to take a little bit of flex time later to accommodate for the travel time, but that’s just me.

        Reply ↓
        1. i am a human*

          Yes, this. I had to take training on this last time they attempted to raise the exempt salary minimum because I had an employee fall under it. They gave a very specific example of a flight with two employees sitting next to each other, from 6-9 p.m. For half the flight, they talked about work. The other half of the flight, they talked about their cats. They should be paid for the time talking about work, but not their cats.

          Reply ↓
    4. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      Does your state government allow comp time? I could rarely get overtime for my government position, so the typical solution for this situation was comp time. Otherwise, I would suggest approaching your supervisor to clarify if there is a policy already in place for this or if you can flex the time earlier or later in the week.

      Reply ↓
  77. Friday Anonymous*

    I could use some help/suggestions. I have a work event next month that is international, and I need cocktail dresses for 2 evenings. Fashion is not my thing at all. I know I’ve waited longer than I should have, but I need help finding dress options under these circumstances: I’m plus sized and wear a U.S. size 24. I wouldn’t wear anything overly revealing anyway, but the corporate culture of this event is such that I can’t have bare shoulders, anything too low cut, too short, etc. Due to a previous ankle injury, I can’t wear high heels anymore. I don’t have much money to spend. Renting dresses makes me nervous (the fit?). Any advice?

    I’m hoping to get away with 1 pair of shoes and 1 handbag I can use for both evenings, but I’ll need 2 different dresses, plus whatever undergarments. The dresses have to be travel-friendly (checked luggage), and I have to be able to get in and out of them by myself because I won’t have anyone who can help with zippers, etc. This is all very overwhelming to me–I haven’t worn a dress at all in years, much less anything fancy. I feel so self-conscious and awkward about my body. Thank you for any help.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      This sounds more business cocktail vs actual cocktail (based on what you say about bare shoulders & low cut), which to me makes things easier. I find that the line between business professional and business cocktail is generally how much accessorizing you add. Take an otherwise simple dress, add a shawl or necklace, a fun brooch/necklace/earrings/bracelets (choose from these as you feel comfortable). Costume jewelry is fine as long as it’s not something like a pink flamingo made out of rhinestones. A nice cardigan/shawl/scarf is my hack to fancying up an otherwise mild dress. I’ve absolutely worn the same dress to two different evenings with different light sweaters and no one called it. Shoes – nice flats are a plus.

      Price-wise: you want a dress that *looks* fancy, not necessarily one that *is* fancy. I personally thrift a lot, but I know that can be more challenging when looking for plus sizes. So I’d recommend buying a neutral colored dress new from a store where you can try it on, then hit the thrift stores for your accessorizing.

      Also, if you’d be more comfortable in a pantsuit, go in a pantsuit! Again, add fun accessories + pop of color in the form of a scarf, and it’ll look deliberate.

      Reply ↓
    2. Alisaurus*

      If you have a bridal store in your area, it’s worth checking out their formal dress stock. Most of them carry formal dresses for any event as well as actual weddings, but you could always call and ask ahead of time too. I got a cocktail dress for a work event at my local David’s Bridal a few years ago, and it was a material that allowed it to be folded well. I am a larger size as well, but they had a few options in my size.

      Reply ↓
    3. under cat duties*

      this may not work, but can you mirror menswear? Like, if the the expectation for men is suit (jacket + pants), you do either jacket + pants or jacket + skirt (same fabric)?

      Reply ↓
    4. HoundMom*

      There is a designer Ming Wang who does knit dresses which can be dressed up or made more casual. They last forever and are super comfortable and do not wrinkle. They are pricey, but you can often get them for a quarter of their original price on the Dillards website. She also has her own website and has a 33% sale going on, but even that is pricey (for my budget). No matter where I wear those clothes, people compliment me on them.

      Reply ↓
    5. Qwerty*

      Do you know anyone who has been to these before? Or can you find pictures from previous years to see what people are wearing? If it is a corporate-y event and you don’t wear dresses in general, I’d go for dress pants and a dressy top. There’s also dress alternatives where the pants are wide and look kinda like a long dress when you’re standing still. It’s also easier for packing because you can do 1 pant + 2 matching tops

      Reply ↓
    6. Maryn*

      I’m plus-sized as well, but after a lot of trial and error, I have multiple dress-up options that I actually feel pretty wearing. I know, right?

      I would consider separates. A midi or ankle-length black skirt and two dressy tops takes up less luggage space than two dresses. Consider drapy palazzo pants (huge legs, elastic waist, real comfy), a knife-pleat skirt (both of these can roll in luggage and come out great), stretch velvet pants or skirt if it’s cool, chiffon if it’s not. I’ve bought all these online, since they only have to fit at the waist. (Lands End has burgundy velvet pants right now for $22, although they’re more like a deep dusty rose.) Lane Bryant has similar stretch velvet pants in black that’s really a pewter gray. They’ve got palazzo pants, too, or did last time I shopped.

      You can get lovely and event-appropriate tops at Lane Bryant and Torrid, either online or in person.

      You can do this, and look great at any size. Really.

      Reply ↓
    7. KT*

      I’ve had good luck with Torrid and scouring their clearance for off season dresses that I can adapt to the current season. You should still have plenty of time to get something delivered or even pick-up in store if you have one close by.

      I also like some dresses at Old Navy, although it can be harder to find more formal.

      Reply ↓
    8. DJ*

      Can you wear existing pants or skirt with a dressy top? Sounds like it still means 2 tops but it is cheaper and may fit with your usual going out gear.

      Reply ↓
    9. Ceanothus*

      Universal Standard is my go-to — everything they have is in size 00-40 and they focus on workwear/work party type clothing. I’d check them out!

      The dresses are $100-$200 but if you get one it will fit and you will look great.

      Reply ↓
  78. peach cobbler*

    I have collaborated on freelance work projects with a former play-partner with whom I am close and still care for deeply. For a variety of reasons, some of which are related to my queerness, my sex life is private and my being in love with this friend is something I prefer not to disclose to third parties.

    Just now an older man in our field was looking at some examples of my work and when he saw one of our collaborations he casually criticized my friend’s work using snarky, barbed language that caught me by surprise and made me feel uncomfortable. I explained that this was my friend and I didn’t agree, and he insisted that his criticism should still be okay because work isn’t personal (side note: I wasn’t asking for criticism AND I also don’t agree with his criticism.)

    I think most people would think twice before baldly and confidently criticizing someone’s work performance to their partner, completely unsolicited, but this man is claiming it’s a fair comment and he’s just being honest/don’t take it personally and I can’t help but wonder if he didn’t backpedal because friendships aren’t as respected, culturally, as romantic relationships. Or if he’s just trying to save face. Anyway it did make me wonder because I’m team “friendships should be respected as much as romances” but I can’t help but feel like if I’d said “excuse me, you’re criticizing someone I’m in love with” he might have been more embarrassed? Maybe not.

    Reply ↓
    1. peach cobbler*

      also i think some of what i’m reacting to is the high level of snark, it caught me off guard. It wasn’t “I don’t care for this” type language.

      Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      He critiqued your friend’s work, sure, but it was in *your* collaboration. A “well, I collaborated with them on this and I liked how it turned out” should have shut him up, and if he didn’t after that, it’s unlikely that he would have been polite even if he knew that was your romantic partner.

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        I’m going to assume he was indeed overly snarky, hence your reaction. But otherwise, you need to separate your personal feelings from the work. You say your personal feelings and sex life is private and separate from third parties (as many people do) but then you bring up the relationship, to him and to yourself. I’m not sure you can have it both ways.

        Reply ↓
    3. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Sounds like he sucks. The personal relationship doesn’t really come into it at all – unsolicited criticism is rude, being a bitch about it is extra rude. He’s just being rude, no need to overthink it.

      Reply ↓
    4. RagingADHD*

      In what context was he seeing your portfolio? Were you presenting it as part of a bid for a job, or was it posted publicly, or were you discussing it together while networking?

      Of course he’s entitled to his opinion, but it’s surprising that anyone would be snarky about someone’s portfolio to their face, whether it was their own work or a collab. I don’t think the relationship has anything to do with it. There’s no call for that.

      On the other hand, if he had made a reasonable critique in a straightforward and non-snarky way and the context was appropriate for that type of discussion (such as a potential client or someone you were looking to network or collaborate with in the future) then I don’t think the nature of the relationship matters there either. You don’t put things in your portfolio because of your feelings about your collaborator – you include them because the samples are supposed to help you get work.

      If that was the case here, then I think it would behoove you to separate your personal feelings from your professional presentation.

      If he was randomly commenting on something you posted online, just ignore him. I don’t think someone like that would apologize regardless.

      Reply ↓
  79. CSRoadWarrior*

    I am just curious, but for anyone who commutes to work every day or on a hybrid schedule, do you cross a major bridge or tunnel as part of your commute? I am not talking about a small bridge. I mean a bridge like the Golden Gate Bridge or the George Washington Bridge.

    I currently cross a major bridge, though I will not say what bridge or where for privacy reasons. And no, I have no issues. I am just saying that I do. What about you? You don’t have to say specifically either, though if you want to, feel free.

    Reply ↓
    1. JustaTech*

      I don’t, but my spouse crosses on one of two major bridges ~3 days a week when he goes to one of his two offices.

      Reply ↓
    3. Beltway*

      Baltimore’s Key Bridge was taken out by a container ship which likely reduced the number of people responding to this question who either take a tunnel or take a detour (long). When I was new to this job, I had a commuter pass for a reduced toll, then I moved.

      If you want to read about someone with bridge issues, it’s a tiny element within Ruth Riechl’s memoir, Tender at the Bone.

      Reply ↓
    7. Goldfeesh*

      Years ago I had to cross from Iowa into Nebraska and I’d take the Bellevue Toll Bridge. It was the quickest route for me even though it cost a dollar each way. In fact, for a while my second job was working there. Honestly, working in the toll booth was one of my most enjoyable jobs.

      Reply ↓
  80. Invisible fish*

    Teachers who left the classroom- how did you adjust to the loss of built in PTO for holidays? I’m contemplating a change and want to explore it from every side.

    Reply ↓
    1. Glazed Donut*

      Both places I have worked post-classroom have turned into ghost towns around the normal school holidays. I don’t take the time off, but it may as well be time off because of how slow the office is.
      Also, in my world, I get way more PTO as a non-teacher than I ever did as a teacher, so if I want to take off for spring break, fall break, etc., I can. I can’t do all the holidays (2 weeks at Christmas and the summer break) but I feel like getting to choose when I’m off is a much better deal for me.

      Reply ↓
  81. Llama Tea Parties*

    Need advice on how to emotionally let go during my long notice period.

    What I do is a combination of several very very different skill sets based on years of experience in each of our Llama Grooming Division, Llama Products Division, Teapots Division, and Tea Cakes Division. We’ll call it Llama Tea Parties. (Why Yoga with Goats when you can Party with Llamas?!)

    Llama Tea Parties has been drastically understaffed since it started 8 years ago. Sometimes just me, leveraging my contacts across the company to get things done. It’s gotten much worse in the last 2 years since they decided that Llama Tea Parties were their strategic direction – but not enough that they would actually fund & staff it. I’ve been very burnt out for the last 2 years, and vocal that they needed to add staff, and they always had excuses, especially that they won’t be able to find someone who knows both Llamas and Teapots.

    So I had enough, and in July I told them that I’m retiring in January, after the Christmas & New Years rush. That gave them six months to assign people (someone from each division) and do some knowledge transfer.

    July and August were great, I was able to disengage, and chanted ‘this is not my circus, these are not my monkeys’ as a mantra. (Thank you AAM!)

    September was waiting to get names to put next to the 152 items on the list of things to transfer, and I got increasingly frustrated and less ‘not my monkeys’. I rounded up 152 monkeys for you, who is going to adopt these monkeys?

    We’re halfway through October and they’ve said they don’t even know how to get started on figuring out how to replace me, which is the conversations we had in July. I am really regretting giving them this much time.

    THIS IS NOT MY CIRCUS … but I sewed this big top myself.
    THESE ARE NOT MY MONKEYS … but I hand-fed them from birth.
    THESE MONKEYS ARE NOT GOING TO BE ADOPTED … but I keep making yet another handmade quilt to wrap the monkeys in, with yet another hand-calligraphy note that says “please take care of me”.

    How do I make it through another 3 months of this?

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      You need to resign yourself to the fact a lot of these monkeys are just going to languish, and that’s not your fault. You did the best you could; you’ve left care instructions; from here, it’s up to them. If they look up from whatever they’ve been focused on instead to discover the untended monkeys have left a mess and they really should have hired someone to keep an eye on them or clean them up while you were still around to help with the training, oh well. Hopefully some other circus will recognize the need for a monkey act or three and at least spiritually pick up where you left off.

      If you feel like sticking around’s not doing any good or want to light a fire under their butts, though, can you push up your departure date?

      Reply ↓
  82. SousChefMamma*

    Any 30-something (f) chefs out there? Not for me but for a young friend struggling. She’d been a sous chef at a country club for several years, and her Chef retired, moved on to an executive chef position at a biatro, but the restaurant was more of a “fun hobby” for the owner and they constantly dismissed her advice and concerns that she raised. She stayed in that job for a year, and left for a sous chef position after a year and the executive chef there is a friend of Chef, but she feels underutilized and micromanaged. Would job hunting now look bad on her resume?

    Reply ↓
  83. Llama Tea Parties*

    Need advice on how to emotionally let go during my long notice period.

    I’ve been here ~35 years. What I do is a combination of several very very different skill sets based on years of experience in each of our Llama Grooming Division, Llama Products Division, Teapots Division, and Tea Cakes Division. We’ll call it Llama Tea Parties. (Why Yoga with Goats when you can Party with Llamas?!)

    Llama Tea Parties has been drastically understaffed since it started 8 years ago. Sometimes just me, leveraging my contacts across the company to get things done. It’s gotten much worse in the last 2 years since they decided that Llama Tea Parties were their strategic direction – but not enough that they would actually fund & staff it. I’ve been very burnt out for the last 2 years, and vocal that they needed to add staff, and they always had excuses, especially that they won’t be able to find someone who knows both Llamas and Teapots.

    So I had enough, and in July I told them that I’m retiring in January, after the Christmas & New Years rush. That gave them six months to assign people (someone from each division) and do some knowledge transfer.

    July and August were great, I was able to disengage, and chanted ‘this is not my circus, these are not my monkeys’ as a mantra. (Thank you AAM!)

    September was waiting to get names to put next to the 152 items on the list of things to transfer, and I got increasingly frustrated. I rounded up 152 monkeys for you, who is going to adopt these monkeys?

    We’re halfway through October and they’ve said they don’t even know how to get started on figuring out how to replace me, which is the conversations we had in July. I am really regretting giving them this much time, because they’re not using it.

    THIS IS NOT MY CIRCUS … but I sewed this big top myself.
    THESE ARE NOT MY MONKEYS … but I hand-fed them from birth.
    THESE MONKEYS ARE NOT GOING TO BE ADOPTED … but I keep making yet another handmade quilt to wrap the monkeys in, with yet another hand-calligraphy note that says “please take care of me”, in hope.

    How do I make it through another 3 months of this?

    Reply ↓
    1. StrayMom*

      I’m sorry, this must be so frustrating. Does it seem that your organization is deliberately avoiding “adopting”out your monkeys, hoping that you’ll be engaged during the upcoming busy period and saving them the trouble of hiring/training people? I also gave a long notice period before I retired last year, and I specifically identified colleagues to take over certain clients. Is there anyone in your organization who could help you with something similar? Fortunately, my former management worked with me on this, so the transition went smoothly. I also timed my retirement to start just before one of our two busy seasons, so they couldn’t afford to procrastinate. And ultimately, yes, I realized I was very replaceable, it only hurt for a little while. Good luck to you!

      Reply ↓
    3. DJ*

      Other than developing notes/instructions/guidelines and advising the company you’re doing this which it sounds like you’ve done, drop the rope!
      You’ve handed over your 152 monkeys list, it’s now up to them. Remind them once that you will be around for handovers/training up others until just before Christmas/New Year and will be gone in January. What happens after that is their problem.
      If they do ask you post January to help out charge a really high hourly consultancy fee of at least 2-3 times your current hourly wage/salary.

      Reply ↓
  84. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

    I applied for a seasonal tax prep role last Monday. Overnight, I received a written job offer, without ever seeing or speaking to me, at a location I didn’t apply to. The position requires paying out of pocket for some training, then pays similarly to a retail store position for the additional training and actual work despite asking for a college degree, prior experience, etc. I have received approximately two emails on a daily basis since then asking me to log in and accept the offer.

    I’ve mostly gotten over feeling insulted / weirded out by the entire process but am now conflicted by whether I should accept it as a survival job, even though I know I will be miserable, or waiting for something else. This is the only offer I have received after 5-6 weeks of searching, although I did finally get an invitation to interview for something else today.

    Reply ↓
    1. YNWA*

      My husband did that for two years. Yep, the training/exam is out-of-pocket and the pay is not great. You don’t get to pick your location at first but if you want hours, they have them (because a lot of the other people who they hire are flaky as can be).

      Reply ↓
    2. A Person*

      I would beware! That could easily be some sort of scam – especially the part about paying out of pocket for training. Anyone else with more experience on this, please chime in.

      Reply ↓
        1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

          Well-known company, just a perplexing process. The no interview part is the most concerning to me because I also want to meet who I will be working for before I accept.

          Reply ↓
    3. overly pedantic fluffball*

      my mother paid for her own training at H&R block. Then was hired at about minimum wage for the season. My understanding is, once you’ve got one or two seasons behind you, they’ll cover the cost of future training for more complex tax returns. However, she wasn’t “offered the job” first, she took the course and had to pass the exam, and then was offered a job the traditional way.

      Reply ↓
  85. NYC Boy*

    My boss (Bob) wants me to attend a 2-day trade show that will be held in the same city where my work peer (Pete) is based. Pete is aware of the trade show, we spoke about it a few months ago, but as far as I know, Pete does NOT know I will be there. I’m not sure if Bob doesn’t want Pete to attend this event or doesn’t want Pete to know that I am going. So, yes, it’s weird.

    It’s a free, industry-only event and Pete may just show up on his own volition (fine by me). But it will be VERY awkward if we run into each other at the event or on the street.
    “Umm, why didn’t you tell me you were coming in for the event??? We talked about it…”

    Plus, I don’t know the city – it’s Pete’s hometown and it would be reasonable, actually expected, to grab a meal together one night if I’m in town. I would do the same for him.

    So, I can’t/won’t tell Pete, but should I harp on Bob and tell him to tell Pete I’m going?

    Thanks for reading.

    Reply ↓
    2. StrayMom*

      If it’s a free trade show and your friend may show up on his own, I don’t understand why you feel you shouldn’t mention to Pete that you’ll be attending. Would your boss be angry if you told Pete you were going to be attending?

      Reply ↓
    3. JustaTech*

      Why don’t you ask Bob straight up “Does Pete know I am going to Conference? Is there some reason why I should not tell Pete that I will be in town for the Conference?”

      It seems very strange to me that your boss wouldn’t want Pete to know you are there and also not tell you *why* he doesn’t want Pete to know you are there.

      Given that it is an open event, it sounds like the probability of running into Pete is high, so if there’s an issue your boss should tell you, and if there isn’t an issue, you should tell Pete!

      Reply ↓
    5. DJ*

      Unless Pete commutes a very long distance to your office normally and would welcome to staff or attend a trade fair close to home it all sounds very weird. Agreed with poster to ask Bob why you shouldn’t tell Pete and advise of your discomfort around this.

      Reply ↓
  86. Anonymous Coder*

    So I’ve been getting pretty frequent pings from a fairly big-name tech company. About once a week, sometimes more. Problem is, I had a few extremely, extremely, extremely unprofessional interviews with them in the past. Stuff like them calling me up >20 minutes late and refusing to reschedule, interviewers accusing me of Googling answers during the interview, laughing at me and calling me a moron. TBF, this specific company known for having a difficult and abrasive company culture, but that doesn’t mean I’d like to work in such an environment.

    Now that I’m about a decade further into my career, apparently I have some skills or experience they find valuable. When their recruiters reach out to me, I just respond to each of them with: “Hi (Name), I understand that there’s no way you could be expected to know this, but when I previously interviewed with (Company), in (years), my interviewers made it an extremely unprofessional and hostile experience, and consequently I would not consider working with (Company) now or in the future. Thanks for understanding and have a great day.”

    Is this appropriate? Does it come off as rude or unprofessional? For any internal recruiters reading this, how would you react to receiving a response like this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      That’s a lot of information. I would just ignore it. If you can’t avoid responding, I would say something anodyne like “Thanks, I don’t think this is the right match for me” or “Thanks, but I’m not interested in making a move right now.”

      Reply ↓
  87. ItsameMario*

    I’m in the UK starting a new job in November. I interviewed in July with my new manager who has told me he’s decided back in July to go back to his old job (he’s on a secondment) so will be leaving in Jan. Nothing was mentioned during the interview including about the him being on secondment and I was really looking forward to working with him so am annoyed I’ll only get to work with him for 2 months and will have to start over again. I know things change but wish they had told me before as I worry there are other things they aren’t telling me!

    I’ve been very anxious about starting this new role its a development opportunity and a big career pivot and I’ve taken a 2 Yr contract and given up a permanent job. Any tips on how to manage this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Pocket Mouse*

      When you start, ask about the plans for filling his role and if there are any other changes/restructuring anticipated. If there’s something you can think of ahead of time that you’d like to know if it’s happening, just ask if it’s happening.

      Reply ↓
  88. Medusa*

    Wanted to see if anyone has suggestions… My company has posted a senior manager position. Someone I work with and have a friendly work relationship with (who does not work for me) has applied for the position. I think he is not qualified; he currently has a lower-level position, but I expect the company will offer him a courtesy interview. I am, perhaps unfortunately, on the hiring team for this position. Any suggestions for how to navigate this gracefully and professionally?

    Reply ↓
    1. Dr. Hyphem*

      Does the whole committee have to be on the interview? I would disclose that you know him and see if you can bow out due to conflict of interest. If you can’t do that, when they decide not to offer him the role, just reiterate whatever message the committee has if he brings it up. If you are willing to (having cleared it with other members of the committee and anyone else you need to), you might offer general one time guidance along the lines of “if you are interested in this type of role, I recommend learning X, getting experience doing Y, etc.” just make sure it is not worded in such a way that implies that doing these things will guarantee him the role the next time something is open.

      Reply ↓
    2. Pocket Mouse*

      As a standard interview question, ask about qualifications for the role (that you think he doesn’t have). Make them part of what candidates are assessed on, and part of what he knows he’s being assessed on, and when the time comes the committee—and you—can point to the successful candidate being more qualified in those areas.

      Reply ↓
  89. JustaTech*

    Looking for some advice on how to help my psudo-report who’s having a really hard time with a reassignment.
    (Callie is my “pseudo-report” because I am not technically a manager and therefore I technically can’t be her manager, but I am expected to do most of the work of her manager, but my boss also does some of her managing as well.)

    So far this year my boss, Dan, has asked Callie to take on several projects for other teams in our department that needed help. (We are dangerously short staffed.) We were in a lull between our own projects so Callie willingly took on these projects, one of which ended and one of which is ongoing in background mode. Then one person on another team had to leave for a few weeks, so Dan asked Callie to take on one small project for Team 2. Which she also did, but expressed some concerns that she doesn’t really like this kind of work.

    Then the person on Team 2 didn’t come back. And Team 2 desperately needs to get the work done. So Dan just said that Callie would do another, much harder, project.

    Callie is having a terrible time with this project – it’s not going well for a lot of technical reasons, but there are also serious communication issues that are making it worse.

    How can I support Callie? This work absolutely has to get done, now, and even if we were hiring to replace the person from Team 2 that left, there’s no way we could get someone up to speed in time to finish this project. And I can’t just swap projects with her because my projects require expertise that only I have.

    So far all I’ve come up with is offering to review all the project work ahead of time to help her spot tricky steps, or places where it isn’t super clear (or where the instructions from Team 2 expect a lot more experience than Callie has), but this feels like just a stopgap and doesn’t address the bigger issue (like that Callie and other people are being asked to take on work way outside their roles and areas of expertise because management won’t backfill an essential position).
    Is there something else I could be doing?

    Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        I have talked to Dan, both to let him know that Callie is having a hard time and to ask that he not give Callie any more projects right now as she’s totally overwhelmed.

        Should I ask Dan for his suggestions on how to support Callie on this specific project? Should I ask the manager of Team 2 for her suggestions on how to support Callie on this project?
        I’ve never done this before and I haven’t gotten any management training, so I don’t know if I should be trying to take some of the technical load, or if there’s something else managers are supposed to do.

        Reply ↓
        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Speaking of “people are being asked to take on work way outside their roles and areas of expertise because management won’t backfill an essential position” – you’re not her manager. This is not really your problem to solve.

          Reply ↓
  90. HigherEd Lady*

    How have you reacted when told to adjust your tone in emails?

    I’ve been told at least twice in two years to watch my tone in emails or to be more diplomatic when responding to colleagues with higher job titles. This confuses me because 1) I don’t think my tone is much different from others who work in my office and 2) I’ve occasionally interacted with colleagues of who are extremely rude in emails but can get away with it because of their job titles.

    How do I approach this?

    Reply ↓
    1. I Can Never Remember My Previous Nicknames*

      I’m guessing from your nickname that you identify/present as a woman and oh boy. We get tone-policed like no tomorrow. Apparently just ending all your sentences with periods can be interpreted as passive-aggressive, though rarely do men in our same fields get told as much. So take it with a huge grain of salt that it might just be good ol’ misogyny.

      If someone raised this to you who you feel you can talk to, ask what they’re seeing that is indicating a specific tone. Sometimes it’s word choice, sometimes it’s sentence length, sometimes it’s just that person’s perception. I have a coworker who is very blunt in her e-mails, but that’s mostly because she doesn’t have much time to reply and is constantly running interference.

      Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      You say you don’t think your tone is “much different,” but you don’t say how you think your tone is overall. Do you say “hi, coworker, can I get this by the end of the day?” Or do you say, “get me this today.” And yes, my first thought was also “women get policed on this” but it’s helpful to really ask yourself.

      Reply ↓
    3. Nicosloanicota*

      If the comment is specific to higher job titles, I have encountered a few people who are a bit oblivious to hierarchy in a work context. It’s annoying to have to pay so much attention to rank (this is America!!), and nobody likes a sycophant, but really … a LOT of behavior subtext is about hierarchy. You’re expected to know that the time of people who are senior to you is literally more valuable than your (work) time, so if it takes you two hours to explain something that they could have looked up in twenty seconds – great, do that, because their 20 seconds is worth more to the company than your two hours . You may need a clearer sense of where you are in the org chart. Don’t compare your tone to peers, compare it to how you see junior people successfully engage with more senior people. And if you’re somebody who doesn’t mind how more-junior people engage with you, don’t use that as your guide.

      Reply ↓
  91. Mad Scientist*

    I posted about career fairs on a recent open thread, and yesterday I went to another. Good news, I’d say this was the most successful one I’ve done, especially because I reconnected with a student I had met at a previous career fair (and wanted to hire her the first time!) and escalated her resume up the chain as far as I could. Turns out she had recently met our head of HR as well (at a totally different event) and they were like, “What do you mean you applied and we didn’t hire you? You’re an ideal candidate!” A couple emails after the career fair, and I’m pretty confident this girl will get an offer, and I’m really happy about that. (Even though my experience with career fairs in general has been that they are usually useless)

    Reply ↓
  92. lurker since 2011*

    Can I get some perspective on this hiring/offer process? I’ve never had this happen to me and I feel very anxious and angry about it.

    • Applied for a job in mid August
    • Early September – video interview with the hiring manager, it went great. The same afternoon I get an email from the same HR person saying the hiring manager loved me and wants me to come in for an in-person interview. Amazing!
    • The in-person also went really well, I felt comfortable speaking with everyone (talked to 2 groups of 2 and then the HM). I left feeling good but also after many rejections this year I learned to try to put it out of my mind and just move on quickly. I sent a thank you email to the HM the next morning. He replied same day thanking me and asked some followup questions, which I was happy to respond to and answer.

    •A week goes by, I hear nothing. Then on a Sunday afternoon I get an email from the HR person saying the team was really impressed with me and to please call them the next day to “discuss the possibility of joining our company”. Ya’ll, I got EXCITED. To me, this was leading up to an offer. I texted all my friends. (I know, oof.)

    • So I call them Monday morning. They first say they’re in an airport (ok…) and they seem distracted. They ask me how the interview process went for me, if I’m interested in the job, yadda yadda. Then they ask for a base salary number. There was a range posted in the job description which I confirm with them in that moment and then I suggest middle of the range. They say they won’t be able to call me back but they will email me soon. great, yay.

    •Haven’t heard back by Wednesday so I send a followup email and they respond back within minutes saying they are still “conferring about my request” My request for middle of the range??
    They also said I should hear back by Thursday or Friday.(Friday being today)

    •Last night it dawned on me that I’m being kept warm, right? They most likely offered to another person earlier this week and were waiting for the answer before getting back to me.

    I feel so angry. Why call me and go through salary discussion if I’m the backup? I would have much rather been kept in the dark than led on and made to think I’m about to receive an offer. I’ve been job hunting for a YEAR. I really thought this was it. I’m so bummed. I know it’s not official yet but it doesn’t seem likely I’ll get an offer at this point.

    Reply ↓
    2. shrambo*

      Think of it this way… They’re not “leading you on,” they’re (slowly) gathering data on whether to extend an offer at all. None of this seems outrageous to me, except for the fact that they’re not being very efficient about it – seriously, 3 interviews and they didn’t even ask you about your salary range until the 3rd interview? The inefficiency is probably adding to your frustration, since they’ve asked for a considerable amount of your time.

      Reply ↓
      1. lurker since 2011*

        I live in a state where it’s required to post the salary range in the JD, and the range was acceptable to me. So I didn’t think much of it when it never came up. I’ve never been asked to give a number first though, usually I just receive an offer and then we go into negotiation.

        Reply ↓
  93. I Can Never Remember My Previous Nicknames*

    So now and then, one of our administrators assigns things like video trainings (she’s a big fan of LinkedIn Learning, IYKYK) and to “prove” we watched it, she’ll tell us to write summaries or responses. I have Feelings about this, seeing as we’re mostly all professionals in an established institution with advanced degrees and not high school students, but that’s a post for another day. One of the trainings we were recently assigned was on very rudimentary information for personal finances and the questions on the assignment response sheet ask some questions about our own financial practices that I’m… not entirely comfortable with putting in writing. I tried to address this in my response but I’m wondering if anyone else has successfully navigated a situation like this. There’s a question about doing future trainings like this and I basically felt like I had to spell out that while I’d be totally down for attending a training about retirement planning or investing, I’m not okay with being asked to report back how I’m going to implement it in my own life. Heaven forbid we train on mental health stuff and then get assigned to document our reaction to the material (“How did this help you personally?” Nunya!)

    Reply ↓
    1. Pippa*

      Maybe request that the trainings provide a “certificate of completion” which you could submit to “prove” you took the class (during work time – right?) rather than these additional assignments. Ugh.

      Reply ↓
    2. DJ*

      Great question. Perhaps these could be discussed briefly in a team meeting with a different staff member being tasked to provide a very brief summary as part of this. That would be more useful as it would cement the learnings. But otherwise how distrusting.

      Reply ↓
  94. Engie*

    Does anybody have examples, for example online videos, of middle aged or older women or non-binary people who wear “feminine clothes”, and not wear makeup? Not looking for videos about makeup, but for example a woman presenting at a conference, or another professional setting. I never wear makeup and I notice that as I get older that becomes a thing, which sucks. It would help to see awesome people who don’t wear makeup.

    Reply ↓
    1. Generic Name*

      I would look for conference photos in the engineering, construction, or science industries. I’m in my mid 40s, and don’t wear makeup anymore, although I try to dress reasonably fashionable. Specifically, look at the American Council of Engineering Companies and the Society of Wetland Scientists.

      Reply ↓
  95. DJ*

    With my workplace and others pushing for staff to be back in the office (RTO) a friend commented this was good socially as work is an avenue for making friends. And we know that many people meet their partners at work.

    However, for me with a nearly 2 hour each way commute, I’ll need to drop my community and social activities (arrive home too late or up too early next morning for evening activities/catch up with local friends, tied up with catch-up shopping, and housework on weekends) limiting opportunities to make local friends, keep up with existing friends and ditto for others with a long commute. And with most colleagues living far from me potential friendships are unlikely. I agreed with a hybrid approach i.e. 1-2 days pw in office* but advised a full RTO for some comes at the expense of participating in local activities, keeping up with local friendships and making new friends locally or at work. The ideal is an office close to home, not always a possibility for all.

    *I mention max 2 days as those impacted can do shorter office days to balance fatigue/health impacts and longer WFH days. Perhaps this may mean they can keep up some local activities. However, this can lead to need to WFH 1-2 nights pw to catch up on work and hours.

    So wondering what readers think re the social and making friends argument? Can this objective be achieved with say 1-2 days in the office combined with communal drinks afterwards (great for venues, they get a spread of customers over the week rather than purely Thurs/Fri nights) or regular team/branch morning tea/lunches.

    Reply ↓
    3. tabloidtainted*

      I worked at my job for many years before COVID when we didn’t have WFH options and now work there when we’re at 2 days in office. It’s not possible to replicate the social-ness of full-time in office work in a hybrid schedule. But I also have a long commute and I’d give up the now meager social benefit (which I still truly enjoy) for permanent WFH.

      Reply ↓
    4. overly pedantic fluffball*

      I don’t make friends at the office. I make acquaintances. No one at the office is someone I would discuss deep personal issues with.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Yeah. People meet romantic partners at the office because they don’t have time for social stuff outside the office, because modern capitalism grinds us into dust. How about instead of relying on the office for your social life, we go down to a standard 20-hr work week (5 hr/day, 4 day/week) and see how all our social lives improve?

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    5. DJ*

      Not all being in the office workplaces lead to friendships anyhow. A friend of mine who is gay can’t be their true self as they work with homophobic blokey blokes who have affairs when away for work. Not much in common or conducive to friendships.
      I also wonder if you live far from work how likely it would be to make friends anyhow. If they live far from you are you really going to catch up after hours. And if employees are fairly spread out say around an hour’s radius from the workplace how likely is the employee/s you click with likely to live close to your home?
      I catch a train to work.
      I’m also diabetic so can’t go straight onto an activity after an office workday if the venue doesn’t sell diabetic-friendly food. So, I have to have time to go home to eat first, especially if I’ve purchased lunch that day as the food in the takeaways at work aren’t diabetic friendly.

      Reply ↓
  96. Aggretsuko*

    On the one hand, I got Step 1 on all of my projects finally approved today!

    On the other hand, literally everything in Step 2 has been scrapped. I have been pretty out of stuff to work on this week anyway because I was waiting around on other people to verify info, but now all of my paperwork for the last few months is tossed because “oh, we don’t use THOSE documents, we use some manual we never supplied you.”

    I’m seriously just making bingo cards right now to kill the last few hours of work, because I have nothing until we start having meetings again next week.

    Reply ↓
  97. Procedure Publisher*

    Last week, I was contacted by several different recruiters from different staffing agencies. They were all reaching out because they wanted me as a candidate to submit for the same job with my state. I had also seen multiple postings about this job from other agencies as well.

    Is there a reason why multiple different agencies are recruiting for the same role? It gives off an impression that there is multiple openings which could be possible, but seems unlikely.

    Reply ↓
  98. The Human Scanner*

    Can anyone weigh in on a weird issue I’m having with check deposits? I open checks and run them to the bank. My boss wants scans of the checks and the deposit slip along with any letters. Ok, but sometimes I use my phone to take a photo instead. My boss says the auditors won’t accept this, and it needs to be a scan. She now wants me to download a scanning program on my phone. Can the auditors really care that much that an image file was originally a JPG instead of a PDF? Does my boss not understand that we can make the photos into PDFs if they need files in that format? Am I the one who is confused?

    Reply ↓
    1. Noquestionsplease*

      You need to demand/go on strike for a bank direct deposit scanner. Banks love them; they are in fact cheaper for the bank than in-person deposits. You can run the checks through the scanner right on your desk and instantly see they’ve been deposited to your account. The bank provides pdfs of each deposit with copies of the checks. Seriously, go to your finance department and stand there until they agree.

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  99. ToS*

    What do managers/departments do if an employee has a traumatic event? With this large state agency, someone who works the evening shift experienced a violent crime (not work related). Employee informs manager and *typically* manager exercises flexibility, but the boss wants to send everything through HR and Disability Accommodation as the employee wants to come back quickly (only has 2 days of paid leave to bank against FMLA) and work the day shift.

    Instead of manager and their boss exercising some flexibility, employee needs a couple of days to fill out FMLA paperwork (doc says they are incapacitated for 2 weeks, not due back for another week after paperwork is in) which comes in a week after they are missing their first day back, and Disability Accommodation is asking after documentation for the return to work, as FMLA paperwork only says leave, and that the employee will likely have this condition for 3 months.

    Employee is furious, hates that Disability Accommodation talked about a range of options besides “put me on the day shift” (safety escort, alternate commute options, riding with someone they trust) as they are afraid to be out after dark, but are also afraid of owing for leave (they talked to the FMLA person in HR first). Employee was thinking about quitting so they would not owe money, but needs the health insurance. (HR should explain leave donation and gradual restoration of borrowed leave). Employee is clearly stressed out, and saying they cannot return to work if it’s after dark (3:30-midnight shift).

    How do medium to large employers deal with situations like this? FMLA and Disability Accommodation take time. Generally HR wants some kind of information, and while the manager initially offered to cover/switch with the employee, it’s unclear what happened, though Boss wants HR/DA to solve it.

    HR wants Disability Accommodation to “presume” PTSD, employee wants DA to presume that employee is ready for a customer-facing position at a busier time of day. But – employee is getting documentation.

    Walk me through similar experiences, from best practices to lessons learned. Please and thank you!

    Reply ↓
    1. Noquestionsplease*

      Sorry, but your company sucks. What is with all the bureaucracy ? Your employee was ASSAULTED! Yes, they are entitled to disability leave, immediately. YES, if they only want daylight hours, FINE. Who are these jerks in HR trying to screw them around? Frankly, if employee ends up hiring a lawyer, the employee is going to win, and your company will have brought it on themselves.

      Reply ↓
  100. goddessoftransitory*

    Fun question for spooky season!

    What is your favorite ghost story? The parameters are:

    1) The story must involve actual ghosts–no Scooby Doo old guy in a mask stuff.

    2) It must exist in some form of physical media–print, audiobook or electronic, but not a “word of mouth, this happened to my cousin’s best friend’s roommate” type of thing.

    Currently my favorite is Edith Wharton’s “Afterwards,” but I will probably have several others pop into my brain. What’s yours?

    Reply ↓

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