open thread – October 18, 2024

by Alison Green on October 18, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 397 comments }

{ 397 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Bonkers*

    I would love any advice from fellow parents. My kids go to a preschool, and are happy and settled there. The director is… not a kind person, sometimes. She was difficult to deal with when our eldest was struggling with some behavioral issues – very judgy about our home life (for example, made a horrified face when I mentioned that the kids roughhouse with each other sometimes, or that they bathe together). But I can handle that.

    What really bothers me is how she treats the staff members. She’s very condescending, uncompromising, and rude. I’ve overheard her reprimanding teachers with her office door open, for what seem like pretty minor things to me. But what can I do? I hate it, and it makes me uncomfortable, but I don’t feel like it’s my place to intervene in a manager/employee relationship, and recognize that I don’t ever have the full story. Should I bring it up with the regional director, maybe? Or just butt out?

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      I think if you know the regional director, it is a bit easier to say something. Not impossible to say it to a relative stranger, just easier if you know them. But you could just say, “When I’ve been in the building, I’ve overheard some things I probably shouldn’t be overhearing. The director is reprimanding teachers with her office door open. I feel like those conversations might be better with the door shut, just so others aren’t hearing that kind of thing.”

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    2. bleh*

      If it’s something you don’t want your children to hear (and thus learn is ok because that’s just how bosses speak to staff members), I would think about intervening. It’s not an example I would want children to follow.

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    3. Sally of Locksley*

      If she’s reprimanding direct reports in a way that allows parents to overhear, then that’s certainly something I think you could escalate to the regional director. That in itself is unprofessional, and to me it’s indicative of a leadership style that is far from productive. If I was in your position, I likely would. That said, this isn’t necessarily your battle to fight, so if you don’t feel moved strongly to say something, then I don’t think you have to say something.

      Reply ↓
    4. Cheshire Cat*

      Ooh, not a good look for someone who works with preschoolers! Does she ever interact with the kids like that? (I hope not!)

      I would use Alison’s advice for dealing with tough management questions at work: talk to some of the other parents and see if anyone else is concerned. And if so, go to the regional director as a group. It will be harder for the regional director to dismiss your concerns that way.

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      1. Bonkers*

        She actually teaches my eldest for a few hours each afternoon, in an advanced small group setting. She’s stricter than most teachers, but my daughter really likes her, so I don’t think she crosses any lines with the kids.

        I know some other parents have already gone to the regional director with concerns. As a result, there’s a parent satisfaction survey going around. But get this: it’s being administered via IN PERSON MEETINGS WITH DIRECTOR HERSELF. What a great way to ensure I don’t give you negative feedback.

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        1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          survey via in-person meetings with that director – Yikes!
          I’d tell the regional director that survey will be meaningless and why. Does she know?
          What an absurd way to qurstion parents / service users – such surveys should always be anonymous and private

          Reply ↓
        2. Cheshire Cat*

          The survey is totally meaningless, then. Definitely take that part to the regional director!

          And I’m glad to hear your director isn’t being rude to the children.

          Reply ↓
    5. Justme, The OG*

      Say something. And I know your kids are happy and settled there, but that’s not an okay environment for them to be in.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        Mentioning that your kids are happy and settled when you do say something might even be helpful. Coming across as a parent who wants to cultivate a good, lasting relationship with the school is a much stronger position than coming off as generally dissatisfied and halfway out the door.

        Reply ↓
        2. Bonkers*

          Good point! We’re actually a founding family – with the school since the first day they opened the doors, and just started our last kiddo in the infant room, so definitely have roots in the community.

          Honestly, typing that out makes it clear to me that I have to say something. I really love this school, and hate knowing that the caregivers are being treated so poorly.

          Reply ↓
    6. DietCokeDinosaur*

      I’m a preschool teacher, please please say something to the regional director! This is so unprofessional but unfortunately very common in the preschool world.

      Reply ↓
    7. used to be a tester*

      Is there a lot of staff turnover? That can be the gateway to a conversation with the regional director: “My kids love Tiny Terrors Daycare, but they’ve had 57 new caregivers in the time they’ve been here. I’ve noticed that Director is often unpleasant to staff – I suspect that might be a big factor in the number of staff that leave. I’m hoping you can look into that. Current Caregiver is amazing and we’d hate to see her go too”.

      Reply ↓
  2. Alternative views*

    Soooo…..
    I read the post yesterday on “When terrible work systems become sacred” and am feeling … annoyed. Yes, there were some great stories. But external judgement of “terrible work systems” is sometimes flawed. The expectation that all systems and processes work for all people and all work the same way is incorrect.

    So my question to you is: What are you holding onto that others probably think falls into the “terrible & sacred” category but which is fundamental to your work?

    Just to be clear:
    -I acknowledge that many of us work with outdated systems that we are stuck with due to lack of funding or staff to update.
    -And there are absolutely times when an antiquated process is stupid and should be retired.
    -And there are absolutely people who won’t let go of previous processes that should be updated.
    -And yes, damnit, by and large one should only print things that need it.

    However:
    I’m utterly tired of having someone else foist something off on me as newest-and-latest that breaks what I do, or slows it down (forever), or adds six unnecessary steps to my life or where I have to explain, again, why what you suggest will. not. work. I think some people hold onto things too long because when the newly-suggested thing was bleeding edge and really wouldn’t have been a good choice, no one listened or heard them. I am not a luddite, and am happy to adjust to new things when what is suggested will actually help me or even the larger organization. But new isn’t necessarily good. And by the time the new has mellowed from bleeding edge through cutting edge to just… normal, folks assume I’m agin’ it. Nope. Just waiting for it to be sufficiently useful rather than buggy or problematic. I’m all about using things that are the best option for the task – but sometimes that is old school.

    Let’s take Teams as an example. When my organization wanted us to all start using it on our ancient computers, it used so much bandwidth that you couldn’t tell if what you were doing was actually working or just looked like it on your own machine. So much lost work. The IDEA of teams is great. The actual software – not so much.

    Another example: In our warehouse-like work, outsiders bemoan my need to print off a spreadsheet to check things on the shelf. Why do I do this? Because there are about 6 levels of things in the inventory program that I need to check against the item on the shelf and it is much easier to have all 6 things x 50 items at a time lined up on a single piece of paper rather than to have to move up and down the layers of the program electronically while standing at the shelf dealing with any single item. I need and use the software to do other things, but it is NOT good at the shelf. In other words, The BEST CURRENT TECHNOLOGY for working at the shelf for me and my job is … paper.

    Boy, that really ticks some people off, especially the IT folks. They also hate that I pause the automatic back-up software on my machine at the beginning of every day (don’t worry, I update at the end of the day). Why? Because I am constantly downloading the results of searches in the inventory software to my desktop to work with – and all the downloads have the same name. So all day long, I would get queries about “do you want to update {name of file}?” I do not want to answer that 50 times a day, especially when it’s an ephemeral file.

    So… what are your adjustments to the norm that others don’t get? What’s your terrible &/or sacred?

    Reply ↓
    1. Tio*

      Your teams example really sounds like more of a computer issue than a teams issue… I’ve been using teams for a long time and never had issues like that. Once in a blue moon it will glitch and there will be a delay but it’s never been anything serious.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pretty as a Princess*

        Yeah, that’s a problem with *rolling out the modern tool on outdated infrastructure*, not with Teams.

        Reply ↓
      2. Busy Middle Manager*

        I swear the first version of teams used to use more bandwidth or memory. We used to turn it off because our laptops would get hot and the fans would be running constantly.

        Reply ↓
    2. Tundra dweller*

      I hear ya. A lot of, “Everyone wants to stick with the current system just because it works and is cheap. Shouldn’t we buy this new expensive system that might also work but we haven’t tested yet?”

      Reply ↓
    3. Angstrom*

      Excellent point on the utility of printouts. You can have high information density without having to scroll or zoom. In the case you mentioned, it sounds like the electronic version could be optimized for your use, but hasn’t been.
      Paper maps are another example. I love the power of electronic mapping tools, but for a combination of details and a big picture there’s nothing like spreading out a big printed map. Not having to scroll gives you a much better sense of where things are relative to each other.

      Reply ↓
      1. Spacewoman Spiff*

        Yeah, when I worked in a library we would use paper printouts when locating books in the stacks for holds. It wasn’t a perfect system (one staff member always ignored our practice of checking whether someone was already pulling holds, and mass annoyance would ensue when someone realized they were pulling holds someone else had just located on their own list, printed 20 minutes earlier) but it worked pretty well, easy to carry the paper around and scan the shelves.

        Then we tested a new system where we carried ipads around with the hold lists. You could check off each book as you pulled it, so in theory this list would always be up-to-date for everyone and no more doubling up…except that we found they didn’t actually update right away, so anyone pulling holds had to coordinate which sections they’d work. It was hard to sort the list in a way that made sense for our library’s layout. The ipads were heavy, and having to carry the ipad in one hand slowed down the whole process. There were also limits on who could log in to the ipad, so volunteers and certain staff members (who only pulled holds) couldn’t use them. In theory it sounded like a big improvement and I’m sure someone was excited to have come up with this solution, and maybe one day it will be…but the old way was definitely better and I was so relieved when the ipad pilot was over.

        Reply ↓
        2. Dust Bunny*

          Archives here: We use a . . . basically a clearinghouse program that allows us to upload all of our inventories, photographs, etc., into one searchable place. Mostly it’s awesome.

          But it has a clipboard function where, if you’re looking for (we’ll say photographs of pediatricians from the 1950s) you can create a clipboard. Only I–and I am not alone in this among my coworkers–find the clipboard function maddeningly un-intuitive and hard to re-access or alter after it’s been created. It’s MUCH easier for me to copy and paste the location information into Word, print that out, and go find the boxes I need.

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      2. Bruce*

        When I have to check 128 switches on a test board you bet I’m printing the list out, I’ll do it on an 11 x 17 sheet too!

        Reply ↓
    4. ThatGirl*

      The problem with Teams is not Teams, it’s that your computer can’t handle it. Which is a management problem, if they won’t update/replace your hardware. Same thing with the backup software.

      If you need a paper printout for some things, no problem there. Just do your job and ignore the haters. But if not having Teams installed is preventing you from, say, connecting with your coworkers easily then you need updated hardware to do that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ellis Bell*

        Sometimes this is an industry problem though. If you work in a field like government or education, not only is there is no money but there’s a culture of scoffing at spending money and protecting the pockets of the tax payer. Unfortunately, even though there’s only X free in the budget for whatever tool employees will use to do Y job, they’re much keener on getting the cheaper app or software, than on paying for the expensive structure to support it. This way leaders can claim to be cutting edge while economising all at the same time! I agree with Alternative Views that pen and paper is truly better in that situation; no matter how much I love technology and how much easier it can make my job.

        Reply ↓
      1. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

        I nearly spit out my coffee just now. I can’t imagine there is more than one major PNW university switching to Workday… And having absolutely zero issues with it at all! :D :D :D :D :D :D

        Reply ↓
      2. anonymous higher ed person*

        We have that on the East Coast, too! Our institution installed Workday a year ago, it was “going to solve all our problems!!!!”

        Never believe that from IT, lol. They’re still finishing some parts of it that were never done, oof.

        Reply ↓
    6. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I think you are looking at this backward. You’ve created work arounds to increase productivity for software that is flawed. I’m not criticizing your spreadsheet, I’m criticizing the need to go to six different places. I’m not criticizing your backup work around, I’m criticizing the naming convention failure in the program.
      So the question is: If your management came to you and said that they are migrating to a more robust software that will eliminate you having to use your work arounds, would you be cautiously happy or would you be angry that you have to change?

      Reply ↓
    7. Bast*

      I’m not sure this necessarily fits, but I had a boss who was constantly fixing things that were not broken, for a system she did not even use. She did not–and could not– understand how her edits and changing things did not make sense for the people using it, as she herself did not use it, and complicated things unnecessarily because people would forget which version we were currently operating under. Most of this was from a purely organizational standpoint, so we’d spend needless amounts of time trying to classify documents so she didn’t bring it up during a meeting. For example, she might decide that when saving documents electronically, that we needed to categorize Letter Type A about Llama Grooming Techniques under “Letters.” Sure, this makes sense, let’s go with that. Then, 4 months later, she’d decide that we should code it under “Letters re: Llamas.” More specific, but fine. Then another few months — same letter would be categorized as “Letters re: Grooming.” Well, now you have 3 possible categories that all make somewhat sense, and it would be hard to remember which one was currently the “in” category. If you didn’t remember, you’d get scolded during a meeting. Then you’d have something similar, but not the same — say “Letter Type B re: Llama Grooming Supplies.” At some points, those would be incorporated into the same categories as the Llama Grooming Techniques letters, until she’d decide that Type B also needed its own 20 different categories. IMO it would have been significantly less confusing to leave it as the generic “Letters” category. You’d NEVER be able to categorize every single different letter type that we got, and it was a waste of time — and confusing– to try. We had meetings upon meetings about this and it never improved.

      Reply ↓
    8. Cheshire Cat*

      At my company, we used to have a local shared drive where we stored our non-ephemeral files. We frequently found that a given file needed to be available in different file directories, and it was easy to create shortcuts from the original file to all of the other places it needed to be. (This often happened if people from 2 or more departments needed to use a file; it would be stored in the directory of whichever department created and maintained it, but someone in another department could add a shortcut in their own directory.) Our shared drive was also pretty easy to search.

      Then we moved to Sharepoint. We were encouraged to move everything over to it from our local drive. Sharepoint is not as easy to search; it is also much harder to create shortcuts to files, so (especially at first) we ended up with multiple copies of the same file in different places, and reconciling them was a nightmare. And then we found out, after a year or so, that our space was more limited, and we’ve had to move files back to our local shared drive.

      Reply ↓
    9. Part time lab tech*

      Checking off paper printouts. We have just changed databases and it had to happen. I was looking forward to being able to have one computer but my job has just become ridiculously clunky. I suspect I will be using paper printouts to reduce the amount of clicking between tables and two databases I will need to do. And I want my shortcut keys back too.

      Reply ↓
    10. CubeFarmer*

      I hate Teams so much. It never works like it’s supposed to for me. I will gladly send out a Zoom like just so we never have to use Teams.

      Reply ↓
        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          I use both and definitely have more problems with Teams. And Zoom is much more intuitive. And the display is more attractive.

          Teams definitely has some advantages in terms of document sharing and updating, but it tends to be glitchier.

          Reply ↓
    11. ThursdaysGeek*

      Years ago I worked at a corporate farm, and the IT people above me wanted to put in a time tracking system so the people working would input what they were doing at any specific time. It would be great! They’d be able to see how much each person was doing, what they were doing, what tasks took too long – all sorts of information.

      I was the face of IT when I went to a location, where a manager pointed out why all that tracking would not work. She pulled a paper timecard from the wall, and showed me the lipstick kiss on it, but no name. She said, “this employee can’t write her name, so she kisses her timecard to identify it. There is no way she is going to be able to use a computer and input times and information on what she is working on.”

      Yup. The newfangled idea was never implemented, at least not while I was there.

      Reply ↓
    12. Frosty*

      I work for a level of government and my department keeps paper records of everything as well as electronic records. There are by-laws in place for how long we keep official types of documents but lots of things do not need to exist in paper AND electronic.

      Every time there is a new development or someone comes up with a way to streamline a process, it ends up being MORE work because it doesn’t replace an old system, only adds an additional process.

      A lot is because we are working on a shoestring budget and management doesn’t have time (or doesn’t take time) to learn how the new systems replace (not augment) and then they say “well… keep doing it the old way too ‘just in case'” when that is completely unnecessary.

      An example – a few years ago an electronic system was implemented to track certain types of interactions with staff and the public. In theory, this should have reduced the amount of paper in the office, but then people decided they should track electronically AND print the electronic record “just in case” so it increased the amount of paper.

      This makes me feel insane, as someone that has to deal with files (both electronic and paper).

      Reply ↓
    13. Quinalla*

      I’m with you on appropriate use of paper print outs. I don’t use them without thought, but I too use paper in similar situations when it legitimately makes things easier/faster. I consider myself flexible because of that, not outdated. I think it is strange when folks won’t use all tools available to them – including old ones if they are most effective – but I will also scratch my head when folks won’t use the newest tools either.

      As far as folks wanting you to use newer software that is actually NOT better and may be missing key things you need, agreed again. I am always up for trying new things myself (not everyone is), but I will give candid feedback and if functionality is missing or things take significantly longer for no additional benefit, I’m going to speak up and recommend we not “upgrade” until issues are resolved. Luckily, folks at my company are very on board. When we upgrade things, we make them at least as good as what we had before at a minimum and there should be actual improvements too where possible. IF a process needs to be slower for a reason, that reason needs to be communicated clearly.

      Reply ↓
    14. kalli*

      Half of my job is to keep a list of our files and their status… in excel.

      We can have our software do current status, but it can’t spit out a list of all hearing dates this week or all matters for a particular referral source and where they’re up to, so they pay me to manually update this behemoth of an excel document every time someone gets an email with an appointment date, a file changes status, a file closes, etc.

      I’m meant to get ccd on all incoming mail so I can do this but people forget or turn off the plugin because it crashes Outlook and then don’t turn it back on, so I also have to manually open every single current file every 2 months or so and figure out its status to update the spreadsheet.

      If I think about it it really feels like busywork for the disabled chick, but apparently it’s very useful for the principals and they thanked me for it in the last staff meeting – after they were told I was doing it, because they thought that people just updated their own files…

      Reply ↓
    15. Strive to Excel*

      I hate OneDrive, the Cloud, and all of its works with a fiery passion, and I actively pause/throttle OneDrive’s sync. I’m a laptop user, and frequently work where wifi is spotty. When that’s the case I want my files accessible to me in local storage. If it’s a file I don’t need that often, it needs to be living on the shared server, or in our client management system, not on my C drive and not in my cloud.

      FWIW I don’t think anyone on yesterday’s thread was in support of “change for change’s sake” – you just got a lot of old processes that are terrible because it was a thread about objectively terrible old processes!

      Reply ↓
    16. Mockingjay*

      Not so much an adjustment to a new norm, but a realization that:

      *The people who buy the systems don’t use the systems.

      It’s easy to recognize business workflow issue(s) that could be solved by purchasing a new but fairly basic workhorse program or by using what you have more effectively. Getting The Powers That Be to purchase what is needed – not wanted – is a different problem. Because they will be dazzled by sales pitches and demos of Innovative Features For Collaboration, Bringing Synergy!

      MS Teams is a perfect example. We already used MS Office and SharePoint, and Cisco WebEx for online meetings. The only thing we didn’t have was a chat program. But now we have O365 and TEAMS! We moved all the files (not that many) from SharePoint on the server to SharePoint in the Cloud! We have dedicated TEAMS! channels. Okay, that’s what the SharePoint site already was. My team has a duplicate chat that we can’t get rid of. Oh, and we still have WebEx, because Teams can’t handle the quarterly town hall chats with company leadership when 250 people log in.

      I gave up trying to convince leadership to use what we already had with a few modifications that IT could implement.

      Reply ↓
  3. Spero*

    What sites are people using to post jobs now? I just found out Indeed now makes you either receive texts or use a mobile app to receive applications – there is no option to opt out for businesses that do not provide their employees with a work mobile and no option to use a business landline for verification. I’m not willing to download an app on my personal phone or link it to my business account, so that’s out.

    Reply ↓
    1. amoeba*

      Pretty much everything is on LinkedIn in my field! For me, it’s just this and then maybe the company websites themselves, for the big players in the region – there’s only like 3, 4 big companies that have jobs that might interest me here, so easy enough to check manually.

      Reply ↓
      1. KitKat*

        Seconding – everything in my field is on LinkedIn. And, as far as I know, every company in my field uses Greenhouse to manage postings and applications behind the scenes.

        Reply ↓
    2. LingNerd*

      It depends on what kinds of jobs. Linkedin is mostly where I look, but I’m an office worker doing work that is not at all niche and is well above entry level responsibilities. What kind of roles are you hiring for? And are you in a niche industry where you might want to post on industry-specific job boards, or hiring for roles that require very specific training that would appeal to people at relevant technical schools?

      Reply ↓
    3. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      LinkedIn is really terrific. The best part is that recruiter mode will allow you to create a resume in a not-gross format from someone’s profile. Obviously (usually) someone’s personally formatted/curated resume is preferred, but it’s a really handy tool in a pinch (which I’ve used, for example, for existing employees where I need to make a salary adjustment, for example.)

      Reply ↓
    4. Nicosloanica*

      I’m seeing this more and more and more, unfortunately. Almost all of our work systems now require 2factor and most of them want you to download their propriety app on a smartphone to do it (looking at you, Salesforce). They say it’s more secure, and I agree two-factor is more secure, but specifically require a smart phone is, in my opinion, more of a data grab. Think how much more they can learn now that they have cell phones, especially an app that as a matter of course records waaay more info than most people realize. I don’t have the solution for this, me protesting that I don’t want these things on my personal cell phone is just increasingly marking me as a luddite.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tech Industry Refugee*

        Salesforce I have a true love-hate relationship. I have to use that gosh darn authenticator app like 20 times/day…

        Reply ↓
      2. anonymous higher ed person*

        I have a cheap burner phone on a cheap prepay plan explicitly for this purpose, and to have a different number when I have to share it with stores, etc.

        Reply ↓
    5. Stuart Foote*

      Indeed is useless now. For all the flack LinkedIn gets (much deserved), the job posts interface is pretty good and easy to find relevant info.

      Indeed seems to be all entry level jobs, and a big percentage of those seem like sketchy companies.

      Reply ↓
    6. Ellis Bell*

      I was discussing someone’s job hunt today and this came up; they said they check out postings on Indeed, but instead of applying there, they then go straight to the company’s website to apply. They’re very leery of false job postings on that website for their field, amongst the other issues.

      Reply ↓
  4. SleepyHollow*

    This is gonna be lightly venty, but also advice seeking before I go insane.

    I work in a technical field. We recently hired an office admin who I’m helping get settled, but who I don’t manage. The person has many years of recent experience as an admin in various fields and the job posting was very clearly administrative. However they also have some technical experience in a tangentially related field, but that experience was 25+ years ago.

    They’ve been here a couple of months and it seems like almost any time we talk she brings up how they used to do things at her old job. Like I get the feeling that she thinks she is a subject matter expert in a role/topic that she has not been hired for, that she had at best tangential experience with many many years ago. She frequently offers unsolicited opinions/advice that’s not relevant to how we operate or our product. There is also a kind of condescending tone with the comments like “oh… well back at my old job we did *this* and I was very skilled at it”

    Mostly we’ve all just kind of politely listened, nodded, and moved on in hopes she gets the point, but I’m going slowly insane. She’s recently started asking to spend more time with the technical team which is not relevant to her job. Thankfully her manager shut it down, but she still kind of hints at it.

    I’m reaching the end of my rope. At first I thought it was just new job jitters and she’d get over it but it’s still happening.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      Honestly, I wonder if it wouldn’t be helpful to sit her down with a designated tech representative so they can explain once and for all “these are the things that are actually relevant to your job; this is why we do them this way; for everything else, we’re just going to need you to trust us that we’ve got it handled.”

      Then again, there’s a decent chance she’ll take that as a sign you actually want her input, so I think you may just need to be a bit more forthright in shutting them down: “Well, here we do it this way, and it works for us. Moving on now.”

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      1. Tio*

        I would really say that’s more of a convo for her manager, and it sounds like she did that already. Might be time for another direct convo with her manager about the pattern

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    3. FashionablyEvil*

      A couple of options: “Mm, okay. That’s not how we do it here.” Or, name it: “You’ve commented a number of times about how you did things at your old job. We have established processes here that we’re happy with. Could you please dial those comments back?”

      Reply ↓
      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I was also thinking if the one with the employee who came in from a leadership position to an individual contributor position, but did things like review and comment on coworker’s output. The OP had to show her an org chart to get it through her head that 25 years in the field did not make her Senior Llama groomer here. I wonder if this woman thinks her admin job is a foot in the door to a career in the field.

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    5. HugeTractsofLand*

      Maybe a light “Yeah, that’s not really relevant to how we do things here. I think our tech team’s got it.”

      Just to be sympathetic to her for a moment: it’s really common for admin to end up wearing a lot of different hats. Her outdated tech knowledge may have been considered useful at other recent jobs if her peers were less technically minded. I mean, I recently introduced my coworkers to filtering spreadsheets and their minds were blown, so maybe she’s used to that environment. She still shouldn’t be repeatedly butting in or using a condescending tone, though.

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    6. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      This reads to me like she is wanting to move into a different, perhaps more technical role–maybe she’s been stuck in admin after the tech thing she did and has always wished she could go back. In which case it’s a different conversation needing to be had.

      Reply ↓
      1. SleepyHollow*

        Yeah, I definitely think that she moved away from the technical side of things out of necessity (she worked for a big local corporation that laid off a ton of people back in the nineties and I think she just needed a job). I was one of the people who interviewed her and when she started talking about technical responsibilities it was made very clear to her that there were none in this role by the hiring manager.

        The biggest thing that gets me is that she talks like this experience was at her last job, but it was decades ago, in a completely different environment, using what is now incredibly outdated technology. It’s kind of like if we’re discussing an issue with a backup file on a server and she chimes in to suggest we use a floppy disc.

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      2. Rex Libris*

        Yep, I kind of got the idea it was either this, or just generally trying to inflate her own importance. It’s amazing how many people seem to think you advance in the workplace by just sort of pretending you have the role you want, instead of the one you were actually hired for.

        Either way, it calls for a more direct conversation from the manager, not the coworkers.

        Reply ↓
  5. Say It Ain't So*

    Is there any value professionally for my son to get a diagnosis for neurodivergence (possibly autism)? He’s currently in high school, hasn’t had a job yet. He does fine in school academically. He’s always attended small, private schools and his teachers just figure out how he operates pretty quickly and learn how to adjust to him, without formal accommodations. He’s quirky but generally gets along with most of his peers, although he and they are struggling to interact with each other. The “jock” kids keep trying to talk to and engage with him in a friendly way, but he can’t see them beyond the sports they play and therefore doesn’t see the point in befriending them. His female classmates adore him. At this point, his future aspirations are to move to Europe and drive trains, which is all fine and well, but as he considers potentially college and a career (or more immediately, a summer job), is it helpful to seek a specific diagnosis? His current diagnosis is ADHD inattentive type, but I’m not convinced that’s correct and even he has started to ask if he’s is ASD.

    Reply ↓
    1. KitKat*

      In a professional context, the reasons to have a diagnosis are:
      – Gain better understanding of your own condition, needs, and likely points of difficulty. Access resources & support networks (outside of work) to help.
      – Ask for specific accommodations and be prepared should your employer (or educational institution) require documentation of the condition.

      It sounds like revisiting the diagnosis might be helpful for him personally (point 1), but he’s not at a point where he’d be really thinking about formal accommodations.

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    2. Jane Bingley*

      I think the question of a diagnosis would be more of a personal one, not a professional one. You don’t usually need to disclose a specific diagnosis to request accommodations, and an ADHD diagnosis will suffice for most accommodations anyway, so I’d encourage you both to talk through what supports might help him in summer job settings and academia. Asking for specifics – recording lectures, direct and written instructions from a boss, etc – will help organizations provide him with accommodations regardless of whether he seeks a formal ASD diagnosis.

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    3. Mystery*

      There is also a consideration of how easy and affordable is it now? If you have good access to care and insurance, but he might not when he ages out of the family plan, it might be worth it to do incase he wants it for something in the future.

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    4. Neurodiverse*

      if he’s starting to asking if he’s ASD, then maybe he is and maybe there would be value to his identity and self-concept to get a diagnosis.

      also, part of the diagnosis process recognizes that some individuals can compensate until social demands exceed capacity. it sounds like the teachers and small school environment have helepd to make sure that he was not overwhelmed. it could be helpful on a personal level to have a full picture of his neurodiversity needs because his environments might be different and less adaptable in the future.

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    5. Elsewise*

      If he’s looking at living abroad, one thing to consider is immigration restrictions. My partner is autistic and discovered at one point (pre-diagnosis), that there are several countries where they’d be unable to move. It’s a version of the public charge rule, essentially.

      On the other hand- it’s a lot easier to get diagnosed as a kid or teenager than as an adult! I can tell you from my loved ones who are diagnosed, either way you’ll likely be asked to participate in the process as his parent. However, it’s expensive and sometimes people are denied a diagnosis even if they meet a criteria for reasons that have more to do with the tester’s biases than anything else. (I know one person who flagged every test as “extremely autistic” but was not diagnosed because they have friends, and another one because they get good grades. Neither of these are diagnostic criteria, but they’re sometimes used anyway.)

      In general, the autistic community, in my experience, tends to embrace educated self-diagnosis a lot more than many other neurodivergent communities, precisely for issues like the above. I’ve known people who aren’t pursuing diagnosis because they don’t want the stigma, or because they have kids and are worried their ex will use it against them, or because it’s prohibitively expensive. They’re still welcomed at informal support groups and resource groups run by autistic people, but they’re not eligible for workplace accommodations, for example.

      Reply ↓
    6. Anon for This*

      My son is a person with autism. The diagnosis can open doors for treatment options, give him grounds to request accomodations. Where I live it can also qualify him for assistance in getting vocational training – given his desire to drive trains, that may be helpful. If he is considering college, more of them have programs to support students with Autism. (Honestly, Marshall University in West Virginia has the best program I’ve seen – I recommend it.)

      Reply ↓
    7. call me wheels*

      If he wants to move to Europe maybe investigate into if having a professional diagnosis could possibly negatively affect visas or right to work or anything like that? I’ve heard people mention they were reluctant to get diagnosed in case of it impacting emigration stuff, I don’t know if there’s any truth in it but just thought I would mention in case.

      My brother finally achieved his dream of becoming a train driver a few years ago and it’s a good job, best of luck to your son!

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    8. I Can't Even*

      As someone who works with this population the benefits primarily are for childhood to qualify for programs and treatment. In a advanced school setting or work it can help with obtaining reasonable accommodations.

      If he is of an age (under 21) where there are programs in your area that help with social skills etc (think an ABA program) then there would be benefit to this.

      Reply ↓
      1. LingNerd*

        Be very, very careful of ABA though. A lot of it is abuse under the guise of therapy. Not all of it, and it’s starting to get better overall, but it’s still something to be extremely cautious about

        Reply ↓
        1. Irish Teacher.*

          Yeah, ABA is generally very controversial and there are even concerns that even (some of?) the better versions of it are really more a matter of teaching autistic people to mask/pretend to be NT rather than actually giving them any benefit.

          And it sounds like Say It Ain’t So’s kid is doing pretty well in general, so I wouldn’t recommend a very controversial therapy that seems to have at least as many people with negative experiences as with positive.

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    9. LingNerd*

      I would generally recommend it, although if he’s really serious about moving to Europe I’d look into the immigration laws for the country he’s interested in because some countries are crappy about that particular diagnosis. Europe isn’t the only place with trains though, and it’s often really hard to immigrate to most European countries without marriage, so he could absolutely be a train driver without leaving the country!

      Anyway, a diagnosis can sometimes take months depending on appointment availability and how competent the psychiatrist is in ADHD and autism. He doesn’t have to disclose any diagnosis to anyone if he doesn’t want to, but having the right diagnosis can help with getting the right accomodations quickly if he ends up needing them. He might also really struggle with the transition out of high school, especially if he goes to college and/or moves out. Major life changes are hard for everyone, but they can be especially difficult when you’re neurodivergent because they smash your routines to pieces. Building a new routine is extremely difficult with impaired executive function and not having a routine is more disabling than for neurotypicals. In the case of ADHD, you suddenly have to rely so much more on your working memory so everything is exhausting and stuff falls through the cracks, which is extremely stressful. In the case of autism, a lack of routine is often itself a major source of stress and can be completely paralyzing.

      And probably important to note as well, if he’s autistic that doesn’t mean he doesn’t still have ADHD, since it’s incredibly common to have both! So make sure you’re working with a psychiatrist who’s willing to sort out whether it’s one, the other, or both

      Reply ↓
      1. Pretty as a Princess*

        Came here to say that. One of my younglings has both inattentive type ADHD and is on the autism spectrum.

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    10. Nesprin*

      Yes.

      Even if he never seeks treatment, it’s valuable to hear “your brain works a bit differently and here’s things you’re likely to struggle with” vs. “you’re just careless or weird or a misfit and could be normal if you tried”

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    11. illuminate (they/them)*

      Unless your goal is to pursue treatment or formal accommodation that will improve his life, I would work on reading up on the literature to investigate your own reasonably sure understanding of himself rather than pursuing formal diagnosis. That formal diagnosis, as other commenters have mentioned, may close doors to him in the future- especially when it comes to working in other countries, or if he would like to keep the option to foster or adopt children in the future.

      Reply ↓
      1. Say It Ain't So*

        I think that’s the crux of my question. There’s no “cure” for autism, so what benefits are there for a diagnosis in an individual who has been able to navigate life fairly well so far, but also recognizing that his life so far has been in a VERY safe, enclosed environment, surrounded by family, friends, teachers and classmates who generally know him well, recognize the talents and gifts he has, accommodate his quirks with grace and engage him in ways he’s comfortable.

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    12. Mom2ASD*

      My son was diagnosed at age 7 with Autism (Aspeger’s Syndrome, at that point) and attention issues (sort of a subclinical ADHD, but probably relates more to the idea that he simply does not register anything that does not interest him). My son is very high functioning – off-the-chart gifted (tested as such), able to interact with people in a structured setting okay, quirky, awkward socially, has some sensory processing issues.

      Not only was the diagnosis really important for primary and high school to get my son the accommodations that he needs, but it has been helpful as well for him to have the special education resources available to him at university. In fact, we had to go through the whole diagnosis process again privately before he started university, because the school required a current diagnosis (within the last x years) to get accommodations.

      I wanted to make sure my son had access to accommodations in university, because – while he functioned fine in high school – you just never know what might come up. Eg. exams in high school are in a room with 20+ students. In university, there could be hundreds of people – even if they’re quiet, that’s a lot of pen scratching noise, and my son is sensitive to sounds (he used to complain about the sound of the florescent lights in school when he was little). I wanted to be sure that – if needed – he could request to write his exams in a quiet room.

      Also, in terms of employment – if my son ever did need accommodations, a company would require a medical diagnosis. It’s good to have that pre-emptively.

      So, yes, it would be a good idea to get a full diagnosis for your son. Not only would it help him understand himself and his challenges, but it is a good insurance policy in case he needs accommodations in college/university or employment.

      Reply ↓
    13. Bruce*

      Is he on meds for ADHD and do they seem to help? He could have both ADHD and ASD, my kids do (both of them in their own unique way). They both got accommodations for test time and other things in school and for standardized tests, and those were helpful. We had my older child evaluated by a neuropsychologist and they were found to have ASD as well as ADHD. The younger one was diagnosed with ADHD as a small child and is resistant to getting a new evaluation (he is an adult), but they agree they are probably ASD too (there is a LOT of it in the family). If your child does not get accommodations currently you should still consider applying for them for standardized testing, maybe have them try a practice test under the normal time limit.

      I agree with another commenter that adding an ASD diagnosis to an ADHD diagnosis may not have a big benefit other than better self understanding. And when we had my older child tested the insurance company backed out of the pre-approval they gave us AFTER the testing was done. So it was very expensive out of pocket.

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    14. Dust Bunny*

      I think it depends.

      Theoretically, he could need it to ask for accommodations, but his job might not be one in which he needs them. I was diagnosed as autistic when I was in college but my line of work is such that I don’t need the diagnosis for anything. One of my siblings is currently pursing testing but I’m not sure to what end since they are a middle-aged adult in an established career, at a level at which they could more or less give themselves any accommodations they needed, anyway. I have not asked why they are doing this because it’s their prerogative.

      Reply ↓
    15. Anonymouse*

      If he has a diagnosis of ADHD then he is already has a ‘diagnosis for neurodivergence’. Neurodivergence isn’t a synonym for autism, it covers all types of brains that differ from the majority- it includes autism, but also ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia (aka DCD) are all different types of neurodiversity.

      Reply ↓
  6. Bookworm*

    You’ll remember my post last week about the coworker who was always commenting on coworkers’ financial choices (lunch, cars, vacations, etc.). I told her it was not appropriate to stop, she went crying (literally!) to HR, and nothing came of that since there was an executive witness. This happened on Friday and I posted about it as it happened.

    Anyway, she started again Monday! This time it was with a guy in the department who just snapped. He asked her who made her the office money police and “to just shut the f**k up.” He has a lot of political capital and brought our manager and her manager (she’s on an adjacent team we work a lot with) and told management “She has to stop now. No more arguments about it.” I’m assuming management had a serious talk with her as she’s quiet, only talks about work stuff, and the money police thing is over. Thankfully!

    Reply ↓
    4. Meep*

      I was wondering about how it would go down. I am glad you too the first step to make it acceptable to say something. I don’t love a man yelling at a woman to get her to stop, but at this point, it should’ve been addressed long ago.

      May it stick!

      Reply ↓
      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        With someone that aggravating, imo anyone is allowed to shout at her to STFU – it worked and should have been done some time ago. When you’ve tried being kind long enough and it doesn’t work, try being unkind,

        Reply ↓
      3. Dust Bunny*

        I say this as a woman: I don’t think the point here was man vs. woman. I think it was person who was fed up vs. person who was out of line.

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    5. PX*

      Hah, I read that last week and was curious how it would end. I feel like this is also a great reminder that you only ever get one person’s side of the story because immediately I read this all I could think was – “I wonder how different this all sounds when she tells it to her friends”

      Reply ↓
    7. RagingADHD*

      I doubt it’s over. She’ll start up again eventually. She just may be more selective about who she polices.

      It’s like squirting a cat with water when they get on the counter. They don’t stop getting on the counter. They just wait for you to leave.

      Reply ↓
  7. Amber Rose*

    I don’t know what kind of advice I need here but I’m not doing well.

    When I got fired in April part of my termination agreement was that they’d support me finishing my certification, which I was halfway through. I thought that I couldn’t get it without a job, but yesterday the group issuing it said I can, as long as I have the necessary docs. I need samples of things I worked on.

    But I can’t bear it. It feels so humiliating to email them now after all these months. Thinking about contacting that horrible HR person makes me feel sick. I need to finish this thing to help my job prospects but I seriously don’t know how I can do this. And what if they say no?

    Reply ↓
    1. Tio*

      If they agreed in the termination to support you through your certificate, then presumably they would not want to say no. I’m sorry you have to talk to them again! Is there anyone else you could contact instead, like your manager?

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    2. Name (Required)*

      It was part of your termination agreement, so it’s not humiliating – it’s a business agreement and they shouldn’t say no. Be very matter of fact about it – “per our agreement, please send me X and Y, which I need to finish my certification process.”

      Reply ↓
    3. Susan Calvin*

      It sounds like this was basically part of your severance package, so approach it with the same attitude as reminding them to cut your final paycheck. You’re not asking for a favor, they owe you!

      If you can at all plausibly go through a contact that’s less repulsive to you, obviously do that too – maybe a former team lead, senior project member, or someone else who arguably has a better understanding of the content of your work, which seems a relevant qualification to producing the correct documents?

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    4. JB (not in Houston)*

      I agree with what Tio said, but also, to turn your question back to you, ok, so what if they say no? For me, when I’m worried about that kind of scenario, planning for it helps me stop being as worried about it. Could you, like Tio said, contact someone else? Go back to HR and ask them how they are going to uphold their end of the agreement? In any case, if they say no, you wouldn’t be in a worse position than you are now, and then you’d know what you were dealing with.

      Be gentle with yourself, in any case. Break it down into tiny steps. Open up a blank document, take a break. Write a rough draft of an email to HR, take a break. Edit the email, take a break. Etc., etc. Or whatever works for you to make a little progress on this unpleasant task without it feeling overwhelming.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hlao-roo*

      Like Tio mentioned, is there someone besides the horrible HR person you could reach out to? Your previous manager or perhaps a different (not-horrible) HR person?

      Do you have a friend/family member who could help you draft up the email? Or just sit beside you and remind you that this is a totally normal business communication, and otherwise help you through any emotions you may have? Or you could draft up the email by yourself, but if you have someone physically nearby for the moment you hit “send” on the email, I think that could be a big help. That person can help you shift from thinking about the email to thinking about [what to eat for dinner/a TV you’re both watching/literally anything else] so it’s harder to go into an emotional spiral.

      Reply ↓
      1. Who cares*

        Have a friend or AI help you draft the email. Please edit it yourself of course, and then just send it off. Maybe CC your old manager if you think it will make the HR person behave properly. There’s nothing embarrassing about you holding them to their agreement in my opinion!

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    6. Forensic13*

      I’m guessing part of your concern here is that you might feel guilty about either the firing or “getting something” out of it. If that’s the case, try to neutralize the way you think about it.
      Lots of people get fired, and unless you were actually, I don’t know, stealing money, it doesn’t have to be any statement on you as a person. In the same way, the severance agreement is just something that the company thought worked for them (both of you?) and they agreed to do it. So it’s perfectly reasonable to accept it. Think about it as a final paycheck; would you deny yourself your last paycheck just because you got fired? No, and this is just another type of compensation for the work you did for the company.

      Reply ↓
    7. Rex Libris*

      If they say no, you’re in exactly the same position as if you didn’t ask at all. Literally nothing to lose by asking.

      Reply ↓
    8. kalli*

      Write an email to your former supervisor, cc HR person.

      Attach your termination agreement and something in writing from the group issuing the certification saying you need samples of your work.

      Your email is like:
      “Hi,

      I hope you’re doing well! [inane small talk greeting to facilitate positive feelings via social grease]

      I’m nearing the end of my certification. As per the attached, it was agreed that [workplace] would support me finishing the certification, and I’m now advised that I need to provide samples of these kinds of work completed during my time at [workplace]. Can you please forward copies of the following:
      [list types/kinds of work you need samples of]

      The [course people] need them by [date] for my certification to get processed.

      I really appreciate your help with this. Please let me know if you need more information!

      Thank you
      Amber Rose”

      If there are issues with confidentiality you may have to revert to the course coordinators for more information or permission to provide work with sensitive data (client info or similar) redacted, or get a copy of a privacy policy to show your work it’s being destroyed after being graded or whatever, but once you get the first email out of the way it’s a lot easier.

      If they give you trouble over it, it’s a breach of contract and they have to put you in the position you were in before you signed the termination agreement, so they should be incentivised to keep their commitment here.

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    9. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      Turn the situation around! Think of how that nasty HR person will feel hearing from you, like you ruined their day. Win! Allow yourself an evil chuckle as you send that very businesslike email.

      Reply ↓
  8. Heather*

    How do you feel about offering interview redo’s?

    For example, a “newish” to professional work good qualifications makes a handful of errors in the interview that look less professional than needed but could likely be corrected such as: not using a background or turning on a camera for a virtual interview. Or not sharing the screen well during a demo that is part of the job requirement and seeing their social media messages pop up because the candidate shared the whole screen and not a window and forgot to shut down sites that are not relevant to the work.

    Would you offer a small redo of a portion of an interview with a short explanation about professionalism and preparation and notify the candidate for a demo redo to see if they can make those corrections or simply move on?

    Reply ↓
    1. CubeFarmer*

      I would not, because I don’t have time for that. This is a skill that a candidate could practice with friends or family ahead of time, and if they can’t perform well during the demo that will be a requirement of their job, then I would not want to have the same thing happen during a real-time work presentation.

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    2. Tio*

      I wouldn’t really offer a redo. Either you think this is something that can be corrected and you accept them and decide to train them, or you decide it’s a bad sign of technical competency and/or you have equal or better candidates and move on. And honestly, if someone wasn’t on video and I expected them to be, I ask them to turn it on before we continue. Shows they can learn it right there, no need for a redo or anything. or they can’t, and that may be a bad sign. I really think most of these are better addressed in the moment than doing a whole secondary half-interview.

      You could always move them to second interview and see if they correct it but that would depend on how strong the candidate it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Paint N Drip*

        Fully agree! “Either you think this is something that can be corrected and you accept them and decide to train them, or you decide it’s a bad sign of technical competency and/or you have equal or better candidates and move on”
        Unless there is specific reason the employee will need to apply the skills a redo would be testing (I’d ask you to think critically about what this really is), Tio’s points stand.

        Reply ↓
        1. Heather*

          I did not hold the entire interview with no camera. The candidate signed in without it on and did not turn it on until asked. Unfortunately, the computer was set up in a bedroom with a bed and clothing in the background. Further, the sharing of the screen was the whole screen and not a window as I said.
          My potential for offering a redo is basically a kindness as the entire job is virtual and both of these skills are necessary and highly important for the role. The candidate is quite young and a recent college graduate without a lot of professional experience and may not know the base level of interview requirements. I am interested in reading more responses to see what others think.
          Thanks so much for your input.

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          1. kalli*

            If it’s necessary and important to the role then either you train for it once you pick someone or it’s a criterion at interview – you don’t interview someone and then coach them on how to pass the interview stage. That’s career counsellor territory, not potential employer territory.

            If they’re otherwise a fit and you don’t have anyone else who can possible do the role, hire them and train them in how to use that particular video call software and what your expectations are for presentation on calls.

            The only time I’ve ever come across a redo was due to technical failure on the day on the employer’s part, and it was offered to everyone who interviewed for the role. The skills tests could not be completed at interview so everyone got a new time and had to attend in person to complete them and meet the hiring manager. That eliminated the appearance of bias (coaching one person to pass but not everyone very easily could look like favouritism!) and didn’t give anyone more or less time with the hiring manager, and everyone got the same environment for the skills test.

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    3. FMNDL*

      I’d recommend making these expectations clear and explicit before the interview in the first place. These norms vary among different workplaces and cultures and the person interviewing has no way to know how you define professional expectations unless you tell them. I don’t think it makes sense to judge people based on their ability to know what you want but never asked for.

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      1. Heather*

        I gave specific information on the demo and what I needed in the description of the interview. I did not say the candidate would be required to be on screen but the entire interview was virtual and the role is for an on-camera virtual position. I assumed anyone would gather that they should sign in on camera or turn it on based on the job description alone based on this. I could definitely be more clear moving forward though I do feel the expectation based on the job makes it clear and no other candidate has ever not had their camera on and ready. I will consider options moving forward and maybe ask for some feedback from those that interviewed.

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        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Don’t assume anything! You know infinitely more about the job and your expectations than your candidates do. If something like a virtual background is important enough that they will gain or lose points in the interview based on doing or not doing it, you need to say so.

          I am fully remote and do customer-facing video calls sometimes. I don’t use a virtual background by default, but if an interviewer told me it was important to them, then I could either make an exception or decide that role isn’t for me.

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    4. HonorBox*

      Curious here – you say both redo and then demo redo. Which is it?

      I don’t think you need to offer a redo for some (what I would consider) minor technical goofs. So they used a background, or didn’t. The social media messages are a bit embarrassing, but not something to completely write someone off over. If they’re otherwise good candidates and just aren’t that used to virtual interviews, chalk it up to some inexperience and move them along in the process if you would absent those things.

      But if you’re suggesting a demo redo to give them practice… don’t. You may have great intentions but it could more easily come across poorly. They probably already know that they goofed up and you don’t need to compound it

      Reply ↓
      1. Heather*

        The role is one in which they have to demo specific skills that are technical and online in a virtual format… on screen. I am not planning to offer a redo the whole interview, just the demo portion that would show the skillset needed and competency for it. Does that change your thoughts on it?

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    5. Noodles*

      I agree with making expectations clear. Things like having a background aren’t the norm in every workplace (my partner works remotely for a giant tech company and backgrounds don’t tend to be used, often not even blurring, and being on video isn’t required). If someone isn’t on video and you want them to be, tell them in the moment. Same with screen sharing. These are all incredibly easy to learn things. Especially for people newer to the workplace, if they in other respects were a great fit, but they shared their entire screen, I’d just tell them how to share just their window and move on.

      Reply ↓
      1. Trotwood*

        I wonder what OP was even seeing with the candidate who didn’t have a background set up? Was it just a normal view of their bedroom/office/kitchen? Were they in front of a giant mound of dirty clothes? Were they interviewing from the bar and had a pile of empty beer cans next to them? Evaluate what you actually saw of this person’s level of professionalism, not just whether or not they did things exactly the way you would do them.

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    6. Antilles*

      Honestly, in your examples, I think the question should be whether or not you should care about any of that in the first place because all of those sorts of minor technical things happen plenty in actual meetings and nobody ever gives a damn.
      Someone forgetting to close a browser window before clicking share is something I see in at least one meeting per week. Plenty of companies and workers take calls without being on camera. And if people are on camera, not everybody uses a background in their calls.
      Not one of those really speaks to anything relating to “professionalism” or “preparation” in my mind. And frankly, even if for some reason your industry desperately needs perfect Teams professionalism, that’s something that’s fixable with like a 45-second mention once they start and maybe a couple minutes from your IT stuff. “Oh, btw, during your interview you showed your living room office, but here we like to use a generic background showing the corporate logo for consistency, IT will set that up for you. Thanks!”

      Reply ↓
      2. Heather*

        In this case, think of the role as less of a corporate/remote job role and more of interactive on camera role that works with children and teens. Professionalism and what is on camera is absolutely an essential part of the job.
        Again, I think the person could just be inexperienced and not aware but there were some flubs that made me curious about their technical abilities and judgment in using them.
        I am considering offering a redo of the demo so I can see all of those things in one place.
        I will consider your thoughts on it though. Thank you.

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    7. Cordelia*

      I wouldn’t redo the interview. All these things are very easy to correct – if the person was otherwise a good candidate that you would want to employ if they hadn’t made these mistakes, then just continue the interview process.

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    8. Bast*

      I wouldn’t offer a redo, but I also would not hold it against an otherwise strong candidate.

      I don’t think that things such as using a background while interviewing are universal. As someone for whom virtual interviewing is somewhat new (really wasn’t much of a thing pre-covid in my field), the advice I’ve mostly had is to make sure your background is professional and non-offensive. A plain wall, a bookcase, etc., likely would not be found offensive or unprofessional. It would never occur to me that the expectation is that one would use one of the backgrounds in the app.

      The second part regarding social media I’d chalk up to nerves. I don’t think lecturing them about professionalism would be helpful, because they likely are already mortified.

      Reply ↓
      1. Trotwood*

        Also, what kind of pop-ups were you seeing? Was it “Jane Smith posted a new photo!” or was it “Jane Smith said “can’t wait to get totally wasted with you this weekend!”” If it’s alluding to some sort of problematic behavior that’s one thing, if it’s just someone’s normal life intruding a little bit into the interview, it’s not doing your hiring process any favors to hold that against them.

        Reply ↓
    9. hi there*

      No re-do. We make the expectations clear in advance (e.g., send questions/format information), which is then the candidate’s job to meet. If there are NO qualified candidates interviewed, that’s a time to re-evaluate the hiring process or job description.

      Reply ↓
      1. Heather*

        I am not offering to redo the whole interview, just considering the technical demo which would allow the candidate a chance to showcase their technical abilities and professionalism in one place. I did send the expectations (minus the required to be on screen) and the role is for an on camera working position so I did not specifically say it had to be on as it is implied heavily in the title. (Also, no one else has ever not turned their camera on for this role.)
        We are good on candidates and job description and have been able to expand quite nicely for the last year. I appreciate the considerations you offered thought because I imagine other people may not have checked those out recently.

        Reply ↓
    10. DisneyChannelThis*

      I would not offer a redo of anything. If those errors are big enough issues in your field/job that they make the candidate unqualified for it, then remove them from your candidate pool or score them accordingly low.

      Asking someone to try again to meet your standards seems really condescending to me, Sue we liked you in the interview but we’re worried about your professionalism, can you answer our same questions but this time do it with a different background? Like WTF. FWIW, to me those seem like minor issues, the type of thing you might do when stressed about an interview, and easily coach able if you hire that candidate and it reoccurs.

      Reply ↓
    11. spcepickle*

      We do not offer redo’s – But we do offer debriefs and an invitation to reapply. I work for the government so our interview rules are really strict.
      I have had people interview who seem to have the potential to be a good fit – but not my final choice. I will debrief with them after our final choice is made – tell them exactly what I would need to see improvement on for next time. When we repost the position again (we positions that get posted pretty constantly) I will send them the link and ask them to reapply, sometimes it works and they get better, sometimes it does not.

      All that said – One of my recent hires was pretty unpolished in an interview (looked liked he just woke up, was wearing basically gym clothes, no background). I decided that I was hiring for enthusiasm and the ability to be trained and brought him on. He has 100% needed training on workplace norms – but he is flourishing at his job and he brings the enthusiasm I was looking for.

      Also I have 20+ years of work experience and I have had messages pop up on my shared screen, flashed my email inbox to a room full of people, and forgot I was unmuted more times than I care to consider. People are people, and if you are demanding perfection you are going to miss out on great employees.

      Reply ↓
      1. Heather*

        I like the idea of a debrief more formally than the quick debrief at the end when the candidate asked a few questions. I really like the idea of saying, “not at this time” but try again. Thanks so much,.

        Reply ↓
    12. RagingADHD*

      I think it’s silly to bring them in for a second interview and pretend it’s a first interview. It doesn’t reveal anything about their skills or match for a job if you tell them to turn their camera on, or turn off messaging, and they follow directions. A middle schooler can follow directions. So presenting this as a “redo” is a complete waste of your time.

      If they are a strong enough candidate that you want to keep them in the running (or your candidate pool is small enough that you need to keep them in the running in order to fill the role at all), bring them to the second round and discuss these errors in context, along with whatever else you would normally go over.

      Reply ↓
    13. Strive to Excel*

      Those are a) incredibly tiny errors b) only something you’d realize is a new business norm if you’ve had a decent amount of experience and c) something that people do ALL THE TIME on actual calls. I’m talking senior executives at banks who can’t figure out how to switch their audio.

      Ignore it. If they’re a good candidate and you want to move forwards with them, include a “Teams Expectations” blurb in their onboarding. But I wouldn’t bother otherwise.

      Reply ↓
    14. learnedthehardway*

      No, I wouldn’t advise this. If you offer it to one person, you would have to offer it to everyone who blew an interview, in the interests of fairness and equity.

      You can, if you want, have some follow up questions to probe further on the areas of concern in 2nd or 3rd interviews, if you feel the candidate was strong enough to progress.

      You can also note down the issue as areas to coach on, if the person is hired.

      Personally, I would not hold not having a background screen against any candidate – older computers may not have the capability (my last desktop computer couldn’t handle digital backdrops, and I wasn’t to buy a new one simply to have that capability).

      The rest of these issues sound like minor things that can be trained/coached, honestly.

      Reply ↓
    15. Cj*

      Maybe their Internet isn’t fast enough for them to use video reliably, and if you’re talking about using a zoom or teams background, they can be really distracting because they make weird waving motions around your hair.

      I’ve never seen anybody’s social media notifications pop up on a shared screen, but I’ve certainly seen a lot of email notifications that show the first part of the email. a couple of jobs ago, everybody learned that lesson about this without something popped up for everyone to see about an employee’s performance.

      these are all really simple things that somebody shouldn’t have issue learning if they are hired. and if it’s an internet and with problem for the video, that shouldn’t be an issue unless they’re going to work remotely and your company requires video for meetings.

      Reply ↓
    16. ecnaseener*

      I wouldn’t frame it as a redo. That implies you’re going to disregard the first interview and fully replace it in your head with this second interview, and you’re probably not, right? A job interview isn’t like an entrance exam, or a qualifier for a competition, etc., it’s a business meeting where both sides are trying to figure out if it’s a good fit.

      If you genuinely want to talk more with this candidate because the issues you described prevented you from being able to tell whether they’re a good fit, then I’d frame it as a follow-up interview. Focus on the specific questions you still have about the candidate. But if it’s just “yes they could do the job well, but I feel like I should take ‘points’ off for not screen-sharing correctly” – you don’t have to do that. You can just conclude that they could do the job well after five minutes’ worth of coaching on screen-sharing.

      Reply ↓
  9. CubeFarmer*

    My boss, Deidre, made some anti LGBTQ comments to me during a hiring process. Our strongest candidate for a job, let’s call her Matilda, had listed a few LGBTQ activities on her resume. As a result, Deidre objected to hiring Matilda.

    My colleague with whom I was doing the hiring, and I both strongly agreed that Matilda was the most qualified candidate–by far!–and we agreed that if Deidre said “no” we were going to make her explain exactly why she thought Matilda wasn’t the right candidate. We knew she couldn’t do that without breaking the law. We ended up hiring her. Matilda will report to me and another colleague.

    What can I do to be a good ally without being parental? I feel like I need to keep an ear open for any snide comment Deidre might make and then deal with it, both by talking to Matilda and probably going above my boss’s head. We’re a small organization. We have no HR, and going above Deidre’s head means talking to a member of our board.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      I think you might want to go ahead and talk to the board anyway. Matilda’s probably not the last or only hire this is going to be an issue with, and if there’s any chance Deirdre is expressing these views externally or letting them color her interactions with stakeholders, that’s a problem. Although so is not ensuring all staff have a firm understanding of antidiscrimination laws and policies regardless of whether there’s an official HR.

      Reply ↓
    2. curiousgeorge*

      I think this does justify talking to a member of the board. You have a manager who has explicitly made anti LGBTQ comments to you and demonstrated bias during a hiring decision. If you feel comfortable doing so, you could also speak to Deidre directly explaining you do not agree with her comments and that her behaviour in the selection process created risk for the company?

      Reply ↓
      1. CubeFarmer*

        We clearly didn’t agree with her assessment of the candidate because we disregarded her concerns and hired her.

        Reply ↓
        1. curiousgeorge*

          I meant more explicitly calling out the bigotry, if you felt comfortable doing that. I appreciate that if she is your boss there may be a concern of retaliation if you do.

          Reply ↓
        2. Cruciatus*

          But hiring Matilda is not the end of this situation. This will come up again, somehow. It should be on record now. I think you should talk to the board.

          Reply ↓
      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        I agree. “Deidre literally said she didn’t want to hire a qualified candidate because of her LGBTQ activities and we’re concerned this illegal bias could come up in other situations” is something the board needs to know.

        Reply ↓
    3. FMNDL*

      I agree that it makes sense for you to bring this up. You don’t have to mention it specifically in the context of the new person at all. But any such comments are inappropriate and it makes sense for you to tell someone who can help take action that they’re never acceptable.

      Reply ↓
    4. pally*

      Not gonna add to the good advice already given. Just want to thank you and your colleague for standing up to bigotry. And for seeking proactive steps to keep said bigotry from harming employees. Thank you!!!

      Reply ↓
    5. bamcheeks*

      It makes it more acute when you’ve got a specific person who you think is being victimised by these comments, but it’s something you should address directly even if Matilda weren’t there. You don’t know whether or not there is someone else in the team who hasn’t come out or told you that someone close to them is LGBTQ+ but is going to be affected by those bigoted comments.

      Don’t wait for Deidre to do something TO Matilda. Talk to someone right now.

      Reply ↓
    6. HonorBox*

      I’m so glad that you and your colleague stood up and did the right thing. That’s awesome.

      I’ve worked both in your role (structurally) and Deidre’s, where the board would be the next step, and I think you really do need to say something. Deidre’s actions could have caused a legal problem that the board would have to help work through, and her comments would make me worry about her taking any actions related to Matilda that could also be hugely problematic for the organization. I’d talk to the board chair directly if you have a good relationship, and if you don’t, speak to the board member with whom you have the best relationship. Let them know your concerns about the objection to Matilda and that you’re concerned about Deidre’s objections might play out going forward. They’ll probably at least keep a closer eye on things that are done and said.

      In being an ally to Matilda, I think you should treat her just as you do your other colleague. Friendly, supportive, etc. Get to know her, and if she brings up the outside activities, show interest and support there too. I wouldn’t go out of the way to push her to talk about those things though, because that could be uncomfortable as well.

      Reply ↓
    7. Em from CT*

      I’m no HR expert, but from reading Alison for many years, my guess is that a good phrasing for use with the board member might be: “I’m concerned that we are exposing the organization to legal liability.”

      Reply ↓
    8. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Depending on what state you’re in, what she’s doing toes the line of illegal. But you may want to confirm that this is true in your state.

      Regardless, as a manager, keep an ear out, make sure Matilda knows you’re someone she can come to safely to bring forward any concerns, and be prepared to report Deidre when she crosses the line (it’s not a matter of if, let’s be real).

      Reply ↓
      1. Yes And*

        In the two states I know best, if Dierdre was explicit about not wanting to hire Matilda due to real or perceived LBGTQ+ identity, that would be a giant flying leap over the line of illegal and doing a dance in the end zone. If Dierdre acts on any of that bigotry with respect to Matilda’s employment, she’d be putting the organization at enormous legal risk.

        I’m usually the person on this site saying “Don’t go to the board unless you really need to,” but if that’s the only level above Dierdre at this organization, I’d say that step is warranted.

        Reply ↓
      2. Trotwood*

        Post-Bostock vs. Clayton County, I’d expect this to constitute illegal discrimination nation-wide. Any company with competent HR should be taking action on a report like this.

        Reply ↓
    9. RagingADHD*

      I think this is worth talking to the board about even if Matilda was a weak candidate and you wound up hiring someone else anyway. If Deidre is displaying illegal bias to you in that context, then there is a good chance she is making harassing / discriminatory comments to other employees out of your hearing.

      Reply ↓
    10. Kay*

      One of the reasons to talk to the board now, versus next time (because there WILL be a next time), is to at minimum establish a pattern. This is a liability, the board deserves to know and innocent people deserve to be protected.

      Reply ↓
  10. Susan Calvin*

    Question to everyone, but particularly recruiters and/or people in the software space – is it just me, or is September/October some kind of busy season for hiring and recruiting?

    Obviously for entry level jobs, you have seasonality in line with the academic calendar, but mid and senior level roles, I’d expect to be counter-cyclical to that, if anything. Is it something to do with annual budget cycles or something? Am I over-extrapolating from the limited sample size of mine and a few colleagues’ linkedin DMs?

    Reply ↓
    1. pally*

      The fiscal new year for many companies starts in October. Which means there’s money now available to hire folks. And new projects starting which require senior level hires.

      Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The only Sep/Oct stuff I’ve ever dealt with is for federal contractors. The government fiscal year ends on Sep 30, and a lot of contracts are tied to that. So there are sometimes headcount requirements that have to be met on that date. You have to have X hardware techs, or Y senior analysts, or whatever, on the team. So I was hired once with an accelerated onboarding to get me in place by Sep 30, and I’ve done a bunch of hiring in July-Sep to meet that date too.

      Reply ↓
    3. HR Friend*

      I hire software engineers. We just opened up a couple roles because of how the Nov/Dec holiday season slows down the process. So it’s like.. now or January.

      Reply ↓
    4. DannyG*

      The U.S. government fiscal year starts on October 1. If your field is related or impacted by this that might explain why this is happening.

      Reply ↓
    5. LadyB*

      When I worked in recruitment advertising (admittedly a long time ago), we saw peaks after the summer and Christmas holidays. we figured that people took some time away from work and realised they needed to change job. Once they’d resigned, we say a rise in new jobs being created.

      Reply ↓
    6. LingNerd*

      I’ve generally heard that hiring slows down in the summer because people are on vacation so coordinating everything takes longer, but it picks back up in September

      Reply ↓
  11. chocolate muffins*

    Work joys thread! I gave a presentation that I felt good about and had a lovely dinner with colleagues where the company and the food were both excellent. What made you happy at work this week?

    Reply ↓
    1. Love Teaching History*

      I teach at a tiny private school. One of my students lost a parent this week. Three of his classmates banded together to figure out ways to support him, and then held a meeting with faculty & staff yesterday afternoon to share their ideas and explain how we can be involved. I was so proud of them for showing him so much love and compassion!

      Reply ↓
    2. T. Wanderer*

      I take notes for my team at a different group’s (usually disorganized…) weekly meeting, and my team spend a few minutes this week thanking me and telling me how helpful my notes are :)

      Reply ↓
    3. Chicky*

      The three faculty I support being away at a conference, so I can get a bunch of stuff done without having lots of messages pop up for immediate tasks. They’re generally great to work for, but I’m still learning the job so having quiet time to really dig in is very nice!

      Reply ↓
    4. Lemonwhirl*

      I took two vacation days this week to get a draft done of. presentation for one of my masters degree classes. it took the full two days, and now I have an okay draft that I can improve.

      Reply ↓
    5. Somehow I Manage*

      We have a really cool and unique opportunity that was presented to us, and that was presented to the board yesterday. While not everyone was there and no formal action was taken, we got enough support to take the next step forward so formal action can be taken. It is something I’ll have a big hand in overseeing, and while that’s scary because … with what time? … but I’m really excited about it if we do get the approval to move forward.

      Reply ↓
    6. call me wheels*

      Completed my first week of freelance games writing work :) pretty much exactly on schedule so far, found the work fun if a bit challenging, excited to continue next week! I kept feeling like I had to pinch myself, that I had spent all day writing about these characters I love which would usually be a sign of huge procrastination, except this week it was what I was getting paid to do!

      Reply ↓
    7. Irish Teacher.*

      I just enjoy my 2nd year group so much. They are engaged and interested and well-behaved and really funny.

      They asked me today when we are going to start our entry for this year’s Young Philosopher Awards, which…doesn’t take place until the Spring.

      Reply ↓
    8. Dust Bunny*

      This is the usual around here, but we just have a really great department. One person just moved on to a different job and we were sorry to see them go, but their replacement is someone who was a really good intern of ours a few years ago and was then hired into a different department (but same employer) when ours didn’t have any openings. Now we have that person back and they’ve picked up right where they left off.

      Reply ↓
  12. FMNDL*

    Here is one for this crowd: I am about to have to train/onboard my new boss, who will be hired to fill my job. I am going back to an individual contributor role at my own request for many reasons.

    How do I find the balance between being transparent with this new person about the job (I can only share my own experience of it) and not just dumping on them all my biases about why the role didn’t work for me?

    Reply ↓
    1. Number22*

      You don’t owe them an explanation. You say “The role wasn’t a good fit for me.” End of it. If there is something wrong with the job itself, the responsibilities or the way it was structured, they’ll figure it out eventually and you don’t need to pre-dispose them to that.

      Reply ↓
    2. KitKat*

      I would try to be transparent where I have clear examples and it’s relevant for them to know, and otherwise let stuff go / let them find out for themselves. For example: we’ve had difficulty getting the teapot department to move our requests forward through their process, and we’ve tried XYZ but so far haven’t seen improvement. And NOT: the leader of the teapots team is a rude, difficult PITA and I’m pretty sure they’re trying to take over all pottery production by stonewalling other department leads to slow their output and make them look bad.

      Reply ↓
  13. Former Office Spacer*

    I spent several years working as a temp, and then full-time, in corporate offices. About 20 years ago, I followed my heart and left for a not-for-profit industry where most of the managers and supervisors have never had real jobs in the business world (apart from retail or service jobs in school). While the corporate environment deserves a lot of its satirical hits, over time I’ve realized that a lot of things were so much more organized than in the loosey-goosey world I’m in now. I’ve sometimes made the joke from Ghostbusters: “I’ve worked in the private sector. They expect results.”

    For example, communicating in the corporate world: any info staff needed for my job was supposed to come from the supervisor, but if the supervisor didn’t get us the information we needed, and our performance suffered, that was the supervisor’s responsibility. Where I’m at now, if the supervisors don’t share the information, which they often don’t, we just flail around. Also, in more structured workplaces, if there was a computer program I needed access to, or certain equipment, I never had to think about those things. So if, say, the scanner stopped working, I would go to the supervisor, and they contacted someone who took care of that kind of thing. Now there’s no real expectation that we’ll be provided with the tools we need, so we dig around in desk drawers, scavenging for bits and pieces that departed staff may have left behind.

    My question is: it’s been so many years since I worked in a corporate environment, and with all the societal changes (downsizing, technology replacing staff positions, etc.), I’m wondering if the average corporate office still has the structure of basic organization that I was used to. Maybe they’ve gotten just as unstructured and chaotic as my current field! Just as a person in the world, shopping or making an appointment, it seems like a lot of businesses have gotten pretty disorganized. So I’m interested in any insights from people in corporate office jobs, especially at the lower level, about whether that functioning structure is still there.

    Reply ↓
    1. amoeba*

      We still have that organisation, yes! However, we’re pretty big (like, multinational, 5 digit number of employees worldwide), so pretty sure it can also be less organised in smaller for-profit companies.

      Reply ↓
    2. Tio*

      What I’ve found bouncing around corporate jobs is that the bigger the organization, the more established processes and hierarchies and responsibilities they have. SO sometimes small businesses mimic a lot of the problems you see in start ups and non-profits, mostly because they often don’t have the experience to establish those systems until a “use case” shall we say comes up. So if you’re looking longingly at structure and defined jobs, look at larger companies.

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        Or just ask a lot of questions about process and how top-down the management style is. Even in the most dysfunctional nonprofit I worked for, if I was stalled waiting on a supervisor’s approval, it was usually because they just needed to give the final sign-off; I didn’t need to go through them to ask others on their team for information. And if I couldn’t get help fixing something broken, it wasn’t because management didn’t see it as their job; it was because we just didn’t have the money.

        Reply ↓
    3. Former Local*

      I think generally if the company is big enough to have centralized services (IT, a proper HR department, someone whose job is internal communications) then it’s going to be organized very similarly to what you’re expecting. ie – there is someone whose job description includes fixing the scanner, and another person whose job description includes telling you about open enrollment deadlines, etc.

      but people are still people, and there’s definitely still lots of “no one ever told me” haha.

      Reply ↓
  14. curiousgeorge*

    Does anyone have advice on how to reduce the burden on candidates for asking for interview accommodations? I have a vague memory of there being a post on here with some really good ideas (maybe last month) but I can’t find it. We want to do more to show candidates we are serious about offering them an even playing field at interview, so what can we say in our invitations and what policies/procedures should we be implementing?

    Reply ↓
      1. Lemonwhirl*

        yes, give all teb questions up front, to everyone.

        you also might consider putting together a brief explanation of things like where to park, how to find the office, whom to ask for, the agenda/structure/timing of the interview. you can include a sentence in there about how to request accommodations.

        Reply ↓
        1. call me wheels*

          This! I appreciate as much logistical information as possible so I can plan what transport to take, what mobility aids I might need and so on. It’s very helpful when it’s provided up front and I don’t feel like I’m making an extra fuss when I ask for details

          Reply ↓
        2. M2*

          We put info where to park, etc and send main questions to everyone but let them know that won’t be all the question. Interviewers are allowed to ask follow-up questions or clarifying questions as well so people understand there might be more.

          I also hire people where we have something they need to work on while there. Usually everyone is given 15 -20 minutes to do it and then discusses their findings. Then I go over it with them. But people who interview for this should have experience in this exercise and it’s not work we need to do but we created some “fake” work just for this scenario to see how long it takes them do to/ their findings because when it comes time to do it each thing must be done pretty quickly. And no we don’t give it early because people shouldn’t be spending hours on this. That will not be helpful to understand if they can get it done quickly and correctly. But again we are upfront with this and they do it on site and ask what they need for it- if they listen to music or watch a show when they usually do that type of work they are allowed to have their phone or system with headphones.

          I find being upfront as much as possible is really important. That’s how I manage- I communicate and hope others communicate with me. I understand why people
          Don’t disclose everything right away so I try and make it fair for everyone and do what I can.

          Reply ↓
    2. I should really pick a name*

      “If there are accommodations that will make this process easier you such as please let us know”

      Basically, state that you will make accommodations, and include some examples so they won’t think what they need is too much.

      Reply ↓
      1. kalli*

        A statement like this doesn’t decrease the burden on a candidate, and honestly it’s barely worth the pixels. I state in my cover letter, on my profile and when accepting an interview that I need accommodations and I have literally shown up to interviews and the hiring manager has gone “are you disabled? wow, well done for trying and putting yourself out there!” and no accommodations provided and no job because “this job involves people so you can’t do it, but if we need data entry we’ll call you!” Another interview was for an organisation – that contacted me!! – who openly declare how accessible and inclusive they are on their website and all their job ads, but could not tell me if the role they contacted me for could accommodate my disability or whether I could get into the building, as the interviewer had never been there and did not know what work was available!

        If it is going to be a ‘please let us know’, having a question and space to put it in the application itself, if there’s an online form in the process, proactively checking when making a time for interview, and clearly conveying information regarding accessibility, expectations, and available measures with the job ad or in applicant information packs, and at the very least prior to interview are useful. Having at least one person conducting the interview able to speak to the practicalities of the role is helpful as well!

        Reply ↓
    3. SoundsGoodBut*

      Be prepared to be ignored no matter what you do. I will not disclose until I have a job offer unless I have no other choice because I’ve never gotten an offer from anyone who knew/figured out my primary disability (vision). I also use a walker so if I come in person that will automatically be disclosed. I have every once in a while run into something unexpected that meant I had to disclose on the spot (like having to fill out a paper application – why?????) but I will fake it if there’s any chance I can do so.

      Reply ↓
  15. my cat is prettier than me*

    I’ve been tasked with coming up with ways to improve my company’s culture. Two of the things I already know people want are off the table/out of my hands (more money, better communication). The COO said I should talk to people, but I’m not sure how to get other answers from people. Any ideas/questions I should ask?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      We have a whole culture committee at our company. Do not underestimate the value of anonymous feedback forms. Create the form in Google, pin it to a Slack channel, Google takes care of it being anonymous.

      Good questions to ask are things like conflicts between stated goals/policies and actual behavior, does management actually listen, is there confusing or contradicting information coming down from management.

      Reply ↓
      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        We’ve done anonymous surveys in the past, but very few people fill them out. We also have a suggestion box, but I don’t know if anyone has written anything yet (I can imagine people would be hesitant because their handwriting could be recognized).

        Reply ↓
        1. WorkerDrone*

          Any idea why people don’t fill them out? Try and address that, as it will also give you important context for things that need to change!

          Is it a smaller company and they’re afraid it won’t be truly anonymous? Is it that they already know there won’t be change, so why bother wasting time? Is it that they’re overworked and can’t find ten minutes?

          Figuring out why they won’t respond to the survey might be the first step in figuring out a larger cultural issue you can tackle.

          Reply ↓
          1. Why is easy*

            I don’t trust they’re anonymous. Even if the names are withheld it’s usually not too difficult to figure out who said what.

            Reply ↓
    2. pally*

      What is it that your company would like to see improved in the company culture?
      Might want to get management to detail this for you. Otherwise, you’ve been tasked with something pretty nebulous. That’s not fair to you.

      Seems like you are hitting up against one of the non-negotiables already (better communication). No one knows what to tell you (directly or anonymously).

      You might ask folks to talk with you about their experiences working at other companies. What did they like about those places? What did they dislike? What would they change if they still worked there? What seemed to elevate the company culture? What seemed to harm it? Asking these things might be something where casual conversations would work best.

      Reply ↓
    3. noname today*

      Ask them, but start with the statement that mo money isn’t an option and what would be helpful? Judging from this group here, I’m going to say more flexibility around WFH/remote, start/end times, etc would be seen as a win! Also support when conflicting priorities or lack of resources means needing to restructure deadlines and deliverables.

      And “better communication” is too loose-goosey an answer. Drill down into what systems or processes would aid in that better communication—what product would encourage that? A series of regular 1:1 meetings with leadership? Regular status reports that people must contribute to? A resource for crowdsourcing solutions to some longstanding tech issues? Newsletter or standing office hours? A regular process for identifying and escalating issues/roadblocks before they become BIG problems?

      Reply ↓
    4. Rex Libris*

      Ah, the eternal “How do we make the employees happier without actually communicating with them or paying them more?” question. You have my sympathies.

      My best advice would be an anonymous paper form with multiple choice questions. People who don’t believe it’s truly anonymous will be more inclined to answer if they only have to circle a number or check a box. You can also have an open comment section after each question for the more trusting and/or adventurous.

      Reply ↓
    5. Strive to Excel*

      How is better communication off the table? What communication do people want – is it “Can the Llama team please do better about letting us know when it’s time to move the Alpacas” or “We would like a better idea of our 5 year plan?”

      Reply ↓
    6. Pretty as a Princess*

      Culture reflects shared values/beliefs/patterns. It is how you describe “the way we do business here,” if you will.

      So what are the aspects of the culture that are weak/challenging/problematic? Not “the culture is bad” but what really are the things? Do you know what the problems are that are leading them to say “we need to improve culture”? Are there misalignments between what your organization’s leadership say they value, and what the behaviors of the organization demonstrate? Does the organization even have a uniform culture – or do different parts of the org have different norms?

      No suggestion of any kind is relevant at all until you know what the pain points are. And then, if you are being tasked with making recommendations about improving the pain points – you need to be able to be specific about actions that need to be taken. “Improving communication” unfortunately won’t cut it. And… paying people more won’t cut it. Not by itself anyway. There are plenty of toxic organizations where people make a LOT of money.

      There is an excellent sensemaking model called the Competing Values Framework (not posting a link so this doesn’t go through moderation but you can easily google). I use this in my work a lot (sometimes formally and sometimes informally). It is incredibly practical. Even if you don’t have the ability to go into a culture survey (clintberry dot com has an article about it with a revised survey tool) , the idea is that context really matters. What is in the context is important. To *change* culture, policies, practices, reward/incentive structures have to be aligned toward the outcomes you are seeking. You have to identify specific things that communicate new expectations, support people in behaving in new ways, and reward/incentivize behaving in those ways. I’m not even talking necessarily about money – I’m mostly NOT talking about money, though money can be one of the levers. I’m talking about ensuring that you are positively reinforcing the actions needed to move toward your desired outcome. The CVF is nice because it talks very practically about the things in the environment/context that contribute to culture. When you know where you are and where you want to go, you can pull those levers!

      For example: Let’s say one of the goals of my business is to reduce long term product ownership costs for an industrial product that I expect to be used for a decade. That often requires different kinds of investments early in the lifecycle to design something that is sustainable. It can make things a little more expensive up front, to get that payoff in the end. BUT, the product manager is rated on how much she can reduce her costs this year. (And next year it will be the same.) She has no incentive to do things that might be a little more expensive now (or even just cost the same!) in order to secure that long term reduced cost. The reason is because she’s PENALIZED by rating metrics that only consider the short term costs. If I want my product managers working to optimize costs of long term ownership, then one of the things I need to do is *change how my managers are evaluated*. And I need to communicate that clearly in my policies AND my training for the people who rate the product managers.

      Thank you for coming to my TED talk LOL. Good luck! I really like this kind of stuff and I think that you could be in for a really fun project if you are empowered to do good exploration and devise real strategic approaches.

      Reply ↓
  16. Chicky*

    I have two question areas:

    1 – I am applying for jobs where my most relevant experience is from 20 years ago. Do I still include that on my resume?

    2 – Does anyone work in Educational Technology or Instructional Design? How is the field at the moment – are there entry level jobs available? What do you like and not like about it? Are there remote jobs, specifically?

    I’m thinking of getting a masters in Ed Tech/ID through Western Governor’s University but not sure about the market for that kind of degree right now. Would I be able to find a job (hopefully remote), do you think? I don’t have any direct experience though I was a teacher and coach in adult education for several years.

    Reply ↓
    1. HE Admin*

      I work adjacent to this in the higher ed space. From what I have seen is there are entry jobs available, but the pay is absolutely terrible for them. You could also look at private companies that contract with universities to do this sort of stuff but their jobs tend not be as stable as working directly for a university (see, for example, 2U’s constant layoffs).

      Reply ↓
      1. Chicky*

        Hmm, that’s discouraging. Do you know of private companies that contract with universities or is there a good way to find them? I don’t mind a little instability to get my foot into the field if there are stable jobs at higher levels.

        Reply ↓
    2. Susan Calvin*

      For 1) I’d say yes – it’s not ideal, and I’d try to empathize anything you’ve done since then to stay up to date in or connected to the field, but returning to a previous career/specialization tells a very different story in an application than breaking completely new ground with a lateral entry.

      Reply ↓
    3. Annika Hansen*

      I work in IT at a university, but I do not work in Educational Technology nor Instructional Design. I did work in a department of instructional designers for several years. We don’t have a ton of turnover in the area so we usually don’t have positions available. The positions are hybrid not remote because they sometimes have to meet in person with the subject matter experts. You might have better luck with online only universities.

      In general, I would leave off the 20-years-ago experience as to not show my age unless it is super relevant. Like they are trying to create course material for a mathematics course, and you used to teach calculus.

      Reply ↓
    4. NaoNao*

      I’m in the Learning and Development “space” and I have worked in Instructional Design. Entry level would typically be something like Training Coordinator or working your way from an expert call center rep to a rep trainer to an ID (which is what I did, basically). Training Coordinator is someone who runs the schedules, books the rooms, manages the logistics, makes sure the rosters are correct, etc. They also do the admin work for the trainer.

      ID work there’s entry level, but they tacitly expect that you will have done similar work–making informal training, taken college classes, done some sort of comms/marketing/tech writing, etc. There’s not really entry level the way there is with admin jobs or sales.

      The thing I’d really be wary of: Instructional Design can be a very dead-end job. I’ve bumped up to manager level twice and been unprepared and flamed out (managing processes/product, not people) because the ID job is an independent contributor role and the people skills part of it isn’t as key as the design (it’s important, but it’s not a “political” job if that makes sense). There’s very few clear ladder rungs above it–basically managing other IDs and then managing an entire department or org, but those jobs are rare/few and most people do those for decades and don’t budge, or they hire someone from outside rather than promote up.

      Reply ↓
  17. Number22*

    I work closely with a colleague, and our responsibilities overlap significantly. We sort of “divide and conquer” and 90% of the time it works well. We each have the things we do all the time, and then we discuss new items as they come in or share the load when someone is busy with other work or out of office. We talk practically every day over Teams or in meetings, and have several checkpoints set up throughout the week. One area that is definitely my responsibility is communication with our internal partners. It isn’t that my colleague can’t, and there are very limited, specific situations in which they do, just by nature of our actual titles, this pretty much falls on me. I cc them on all emails regarding our work, but 1 out of a dozen times I forget. And they are ON me about it. Every. Single. Time. It doesn’t matter that I include them on 12. It doesn’t matter that we talk about everything before I tell the client. If they are left off, I hear about it. We have a fairly good working relationship and we’ve discussed trusting each other. Sometimes I’m simply busy, my mind is elsewhere, and when I’m emailing 6 people at once I forget to add them. I always apologize, but how can I get them to not be so confrontational about it? It isn’t personal on my end, but it seems like it feels personal to them. To me, it feels like there is no grace on the team when someone makes a mistake (I’ve seen them and others point out the smallest mistakes – there seems to be a team culture of “not my fault/I did it right” and that often entails pointing out whose fault it in fact is, even if it isn’t in a malicious way. I’ve been about a year.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Somehow I Manage*

      I think you’re already doing the right thing. Apologize. Let them know you were working quickly, apologize for the oversight, and then tell them you’re going to CC them as the conversation moves forward so they’re in on it.

      Reply ↓
    2. HugeTractsofLand*

      Based on your description, they’re definitely overreacting, and if you’ve seen them nitpick others before then this is part of a broader culture of jumping on mistakes. Are they confronting you in person about it, or over email/chat? If it’s an electronic reprimand I’d respond as minimally as possible by just forwarding them the email with a brief “sorry, here you go.” If it’s in person- and maybe you should do this for long term peace of mind anyway- I’d use Allison’s approach of naming the pattern and expressing honest concern. Something like “Colleague, I’ve noticed that when I forget to add you to an email, it really upsets you. It’s always an accident and only happens 1 in 12 times, but maybe I’m missing something. Has it caused work issues for you when you’re not on the email? Are you not getting enough information from our daily check-ins?”

      Whatever happens, just know that this is a Them problem and not a you problem. We all make mistakes, and this says more about Their insecurity than your competence.

      Reply ↓
    3. Kay*

      One out of a dozen seems like A LOT. While it is possible they might be overreacting, there also could be a very good business explanation as to why they aren’t. If for any reason any of the information that would be contained in those emails, and any back and forth after that, would be relevant information for your colleague to have, I can see why being left off that often would get old, fast.

      Reply ↓
  18. RM*

    I’m in the UK so please no US based legal advice :).

    My organisation had a new head of DEI start about a year ago. Recently, driven by her, HR have announced that toilets are to be segregated by gender assigned at birth, with the concession that trans people could walk elsewhere to the small number of single occupancy unisex toilets (likely outing themselves in the process). Some of us have tried to push back on this and all responses from HR/DEI have contained what I regard as transphobic dogwhistles and claims that women will be assaulted if we have an inclusive toilet policy. It is also fairly clear that they have support for this at the top level (the most generous interpretation is that it’s an old-school organisation who completely rely on DEI to be expert on these matters). I am not trans myself but am horrified at this policy.

    Does anyone have any advice on:
    – Helping others understand how serious this is? It’s clear to me that this is being driven by an anti-trans ideology, but a lot of people who do oppose the policy seem to think it’s more of a misunderstanding. I don’t know a work appropriate way of getting this across.
    – Emotionally coping with the whole thing.
    – Any magical ways to further escalate this that may have been missed? It has been discussed at the executive level with no changes made.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      I think if the organization is using DEI to enforce discrimination, and the higher-ups either endorse that or consider it not their problem, you’re fighting a losing battle here. Support your trans colleagues as best you can by speaking up where opportunities present themselves and being a safe place for them to turn, but channel the bulk of your energy into finding a workplace with better values and/or supporting change on a larger external scale.

      Reply ↓
    2. bamcheeks*

      You could certainly contact the LGBT Foundation or Stonewall for advice.

      (Stonewall is more engaged in general work culture than the LGBT Foundation, but I’ve also heard they are less good on trans issues since Nancy Kelley left as CEO, so I would definitely contact both.)

      Reply ↓
    3. PX*

      Ooof this sucks. As bamcheeks said, I think your best bet is to try and find an external source to confirm that what is happening is out of line with best practice and then see if that gets any traction.

      But unfortunately it looks like you have a transphobic DEI person who is unlikely to change, so other than being an ally in any other way you can, this is unlikely to change unless you want to go on a mission to find a way to get them fired :/

      Reply ↓
    4. Not A Manager*

      If even a small number of your colleagues agree with you, one thing you could do is all of you only use the single-occupancy toilets yourselves. That will at least normalize using them so hopefully it’s less noticeable who is using them and why. If it’s seen as a small protest again the policy, well, so be it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Can't remember my username*

        This horrifies me. How exactly are they planning to check on this?
        Do you have a union? Even if you don’t have local reps, there will usually be somewhere you can call, and possibly even legal advice.
        (I’m in the uk).

        Reply ↓
    5. GetCreative*

      I would organize a group of willing employees so everyone uses the single sex stalls all the time (as long as it doesn’t impede access to them for those who need them – for instance, they may be significantly easier for some disabled folks to use, plus the trans/non-binary/etc folks who are uncomfortable with the gendered options).

      Also, how are they going to police this? Would willful non-compliance be feasible or would it have real consequences that make it too risky?

      Regardless, I’d look at these types of solutions more than appealing to leadership using data/logic/appeals.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    6. Stuart Foote*

      I am not trans, but I would much rather use the single stall toilets, and suspect most others would feel the same. I doubt that only trans people will be using those.

      Reply ↓
  19. pancakes*

    I am a support role in a fairly niche industry and my role is frequently in high demand/often stolen between firms and especially so in recent months in my city. I’m also incredibly good at my job, to the point where several people in the C-Suite know who I am when they shouldn’t, simply because of my reputation.

    My friend suggested I apply for an open position at her firm and it seems like they are eager to get someone in ASAP due to someone unexpectedly not coming back to work after an extended leave.

    Obviously, I have an interest in staying at my current firm through the end of the year. If I left now, I am losing out on $2,000 minimum in holiday bonuses, possibly more. My firm gave huge bonuses to support staff in 2020 and 2021 as they were great years in revenue. One of my supervisors said in a recent meeting for people higher up, they talked about how it was another record breaking year and she thinks they will give huge bonuses again but that’s not confirmed.

    I will also be losing a lot of retirement money not fully vested.

    I feel like it’s worth mentioning and asking if this is something a new firm could compensate for but I don’t really know how or if it’s a stupid idea since I’m a support team member.

    Any thoughts would be SO appreciated!

    Reply ↓
    2. PX*

      if you are in demand it is *super normal* to ask for sign on bonuses (or other perks) to compensate for things you will lose out on by taking a new job. just make sure you have the right number in mind.

      losing the unvested money though, that’s something to think carefully about.

      Reply ↓
    3. Seven times*

      This is absolutely something that you can and should discuss in negotiations. I would play up “record breaking year” and play down “not confirmed”.

      As a side note, signing bonuses are often contingent on staying at a role for a set amount of time. Be aware of that and have everything in writing!

      Reply ↓
    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      Tell them you’re interested but not available to start until after Jan 1 or whenever bonus date is. 1.5months is nothing! Heck the interview process might even take that long. Firm can get temps in the meantime….

      Reply ↓
  20. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

    Question for recruiters or other folks: An internal recruiter reached out to me two weeks ago on LinkedIn regarding a job that I thought would be a good fit. The recruiter said to let them know if I’d be interested in chatting about the role. I responded indicating that I’d be interested in talking further once I saw it (2 days after it was sent). It’s been 2 weeks and… no response from the recruiter. It looks like the job is still up. Honestly, I’m not urgently looking for a job, so while I could send my resume and cover letter in, my feeling is that the recruiter is trying to recruit me and I should just have this opportunity leave my mind until they respond. Is this off base? Should I be following up?

    Reply ↓
    1. Seven times*

      There’s almost no harm in reaching out again. This isn’t the hiring official and you weren’t going to apply to this job if they didn’t get back to you, so you essentially lose nothing!

      Reply ↓
    2. Stuart Foote*

      If you want the job, you should not count on the recruiter. In my experience (and based on what I see elsewhere), most recruiters only have a vague idea of what the job requires and almost never follow up.

      Reply ↓
  21. PropJoe*

    Our department is in the process of hiring for a recently vacated admin assistant position. Three finalists were interviewed late last week & early this week. Hiring manager (my boss) has made her selection of who she wishes to hire, has completed reference checks, and is now waiting on HR to do their part, which would culminate in HR extending the formal offer to the preferred candidate. If all goes smoothly, this person could be starting in very early November.

    It has been a while since we had a new FTE hire. Last time we did, I was knee deep in other tasks and didn’t really pay a lot of attention.

    Beyond the generic “be cool, a little weird is fine but don’t be too weird” what advice would you have for someone about to welcome a new hire in their department? If you’ve recently started a new job, what are some things peers did to make you feel welcome without making you feel weird?

    Reply ↓
    1. KitKat*

      Be thoughtful about the office social structure. For example, are there people who regularly go out to lunch or happy hour together? If so, inviting the new person to join some groups, or asking them to lunch 1:1 (and encouraging others to do the same) can go a long way toward making them feel welcome. It sucks to see people heading out together and not know the culture around joining/inviting people yourself/etc.

      Beyond that, is there anything where you personally could be a help to them as they get up and running? As part of onboarding in my department, we always have a list of people for the new hire to set up 1:1 meetings with. When people have their 1:1 with me, I always specify what topics I’m a good resource on and how best to get questions to me. This might require knowing a little bit about what the hiring manager’s onboarding plan is, but it would be fine to ask them about it!

      Reply ↓
    2. Rick Tq*

      Offer your time to help them learn the unwritten parts of the job at your company. Who are the powers behind the throne, who in purchasing can get orders unstuck, who in facilities can get things fixed, etc.

      Reply ↓
    3. spcepickle*

      Be super clear what they should expect / bring / wear their first day.
      I send an email to all new hires about a week before their start date stating exactly what our dress code is, what most people wear to the office, the fact that it is often cold in our building, and what they will be expected to do the first day.
      I tell them to bring their own water bottle and mug and what we provide around drinks. Also tell them if you will be bringing them to lunch or if they will need to bring / buy their own lunch.
      Make sure they know exactly where to go, where to park, and what time to be there.

      Think about all the unwritten rules in your office and share them. Mine include – big bottled water dispenser for everyone, small bottles of water for field staff only. Never talk to big boss right after lunch he going to close his office door and take a nap. One of our PMs is very Mormon – do not swear around them. Here is the shelf in the bathroom you are free to store stuff on. Don’t schedule meetings on Mondays.

      Reply ↓
    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      This is so simple but using names deliberately. In person meetings, instead of saying “Can you email that update” at George, saying “George can you email that update to Sara’s team”. Really helps a new person quickly get the names, and keep a mental map of whose doing what. Hallways saying Good morning James, instead of just good morning when around the new person. It’s so little but it gives so much more confidence for new people.

      When I started, we had a woman who was really good about it. I’d walk past her talking to someone and she’d go “Oh by the way this is Disney, she just started last week. Have you met John? He works in ABC department” . Felt welcoming and really helped to have faces to go with names on zoom.

      Reply ↓
  22. notthebuglady*

    Silly question, perhaps: do I need to kill bugs for my direct report who is scared of them?

    My direct report is terrified of any and every bug and keeps demanding that I kill them, even when the bug has gone into hiding somewhere or it’s a bug I’ve told them I won’t kill on principle (field crickets being the latest example). This week they trapped a field cricket and then demanded that I kill it even though I’d told them I don’t kill crickets! Also it would’ve been incredibly easy and low-risk for them to kill on their own – they just had to step on the thing they trapped it under – but they refused.

    In the past when a cricket escaped while I went to get a cup, they got mad at me about it. I told them if they cared so much, they needed to deal with it themselves, but I’m wondering if I’m being a jerk about this.

    (For background, I’m the woman who gets saddled with “man” tasks in an almost entirely female workplace – not physically difficult things, just things that women can learn but don’t want to, like troubleshooting tech and killing bugs. So this sort of thing drives me a little batty.)

    Reply ↓
    1. amoeba*

      I’d probably bring the poor bug outside to save it because I wouldn’t want anybody to kill it, tbh! I hate it when people kill bugs (except the ones that drink my blood, they deserve to die), so would definitely volunteer just because of that.

      Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So my response to this comes down to how you judge this person’s behavior. Is this a genuine phobia, or is this learned helplessness for the sake of attention?

      Reply ↓
      1. notthebuglady*

        oh, that’s a very eloquent way of putting it, and it helps me understand the issue so much better, so thanks! It feels very much like learned helplessness for the sake of getting attention. I can’t say for sure that the fear isn’t genuine, but it feels very performative to me and doesn’t ring true to my own experience of having been terrified of bugs for half my life. They’ve claimed having “trauma” with crickets but they tend to say these things in a flippant manner – their trauma around cicadas was that one hitched a ride into their apartment on their clothes one time, so I didn’t even ask about the crickets.

        There’s definitely a manipulative aspect to it of trying to make me feel like a hero, which is the part that bothers me the most.

        Reply ↓
        2. notthebuglady*

          oh, that’s a very eloquent way of putting it, and it helps me understand the issue so much better, so thanks! It feels very much like learned helplessness for the sake of getting attention. I can’t say for sure that the fear isn’t genuine, but it feels very performative to me and doesn’t ring true to my own experience of having been terrified of bugs for half my life. They’ve claimed having “trauma” with crickets but they tend to say these things in a flippant manner – their trauma around cicadas was that one hitched a ride into their apartment on their clothes one time, so I didn’t even ask about the crickets.

          There’s definitely a manipulative aspect to it of trying to make me feel like a hero, which is the part that bothers me the most.

          Reply ↓
          1. Future*

            I hope if this person is having this much trauma around something as inescapable as bugs she is exploring some sort of treatment that will hopefully help her to deal with it. If this is a genuine phobia that is debilitating, but not your fault or responsibility.

            That said I would be careful about assuming she is attention-seeking if I were in your position. I don’t think it makes a lot of difference what the reason she acts this way is, and assuming it’s not a real phobia could have bad consequences if you are wrong. You can take reasonable measures wrt to her and bugs (like being kind about removing bugs if you can, but drawing the line at killing them or allowing her to take her anger out on you) either way.

            Reply ↓
            1. Future*

              Oh, and I meant to say, you don’t HAVE to kill any bugs, of course. It would be a kindness but certainly not one you have to continue doing.

              Reply ↓
    4. AnonymousOctopus*

      I would not entertain any more bug nonsense, personally. I’m also tasks with masculine tasks at work and it got to be so obnoxious that I’ve stopped doing all of it. If she cares so damn much about the bug, she can deal with it herself.

      Reply ↓
    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      If they are so afraid, how are they managing to trap the bug? But yeah, if it is already trapped, I take it outside and let it go. I’ve also been the woman who gets called to catch the thing, but people learn pretty quickly that I generally don’t kill it, I just relocate it. If it has gone into hiding, I vaguely pretend to look for it a bit, and then give up, call me if you see it again.

      I see you’re annoyed at being called at all, but I always looked at it as a quick break from my real work. (I might consider that differently if it were happening daily.)

      Reply ↓
    6. CommanderBanana*

      My roommate has a spider phobia, and we have an agreement that if there is a spider and I am home, I will carefully pop it under a glass, slide a paper under it, and release it outside. I have a roach phobia, so if there’s a roach, she kills it. If she wanted to release it into the wild, that would be fine, because she’s the one taking care of the roach problem.

      And it is a legitimate phobia, we’ve both been diagnosed. No, I have no idea why my phobia is for one type of bug only and no other type of bug.

      Reply ↓
    7. Clisby*

      Unless you work for a pest control company, the answer to bug killing is a simple NO. And maybe a call to a pest control company, if you’re talking about some kind of infestation.

      I also am giving the side-eye to “things that women can learn but don’t want to, like troubleshooting tech and killing bugs.”

      Reply ↓
    8. Future*

      I too won’t kill certain crawlies on principle. Even assuming this is a genuine phobia, it’s too big of an ask. I wouldn’t kill a dog or a pigeon, and plenty of people have phobias of those, so I won’t kill a spider, either.

      Phobias are real and I have sympathy for the direct report, and in your place I would do my best to take a bug outside, like you’ve been doing, but yeah, if it gets away and crawls somewhere where you can’t get it, I’m not sure what you’re supposed to do or how that’s at all your fault. It’s not cool that they got mad at y0u about it, but I hope that was an irrational heat of the moment thing caused by the phobia and that they apologised to you later.

      With that said, you’ve expressed some doubt that this is a genuine phobia and I don’t know enough about phobias to address that. I think

      1. you do not need to kill bugs for anyone, though killing bugs you don’t object to killing would be a kindness.

      2. nothing in what you’ve written here points to you being a jerk in the least.

      3. I’d continue to assume a genuine phobia and take care of the bugs within reason – definitely don’t violate your principles and kill bugs you don’t want to kill.

      4. she can feel anger all she wants, but if it’s affecting how she’s treating you, it needs to be addressed, especially if it’s happened more than once. It’s like the old adage of someone standing on your foot (I think Captain Awkward?). It doesn’t matter why someone is standing on your foot – they might be oblivious, they might not be able to help it, they might not know they are standing on your foot. It doesn’t matter, they still need to not be standing on your foot. She needs not to be expressing anger to you in unacceptable ways – shouting or terseness or whatever.

      Reply ↓
    9. Irish Teacher.*

      I don’t think you are being a jerk. I think your direct report is being unreasonable.

      When I read your first line, my immediate thought was “well, I don’t think you need to, but if they are scared, it would probably be kind to kill or remove the bugs for them,” but then I read on and…they got mad at you because it escaped while you were getting a cup to deal with it? They trapped the cricket, then demanded you kill it rather than you know, dealing with it themself? I could understand if they were so scared they didn’t want to go anywhere near it, but given that they trapped it, they obviously aren’t so terrified that they can’t remain in a room with it.

      I agree with your assessment that it sounds kinda preformative, though of course, I don’t know the person in question and perhaps they really are terrified, but even then, it doesn’t justify getting mad at you for the cricket escaping! There’s something in your description of it that reminds me of a boss I once had who would insist she was terrified of a bug and couldn’t stay in the room with it and then…stay there talking about it. It just sounds to me like she wants attention.

      Not that it really matters anyway because even if she is genuinely scared, it still doesn’t make it your responsibility.

      Reply ↓
  23. Pocket Mouse*

    My office is having a Halloween-themed party this month. One of the planned activities is a game in which staff bring in baby/kid photos of themselves in a Halloween costume and everyone guesses who’s who.

    The baby/kid photo aspect is problematic enough (some people don’t have photos from early ages due to various possibly traumatic circumstances, socioeconomic status or home life problems can be readily apparent, it can out trans people, etc.) but the Halloween costume aspect adds another tin of worms. What about people who don’t—or whose families didn’t—do anything for Halloween? What about people whose parents dressed them as something racist or otherwise inappropriate?

    The good news in this case is that there’s no pressure for every person to submit a photo – the office is 100+ people, and I’d guess maybe 15-30 people will submit photos.

    My questions for you are:
    1. Would you: a) ask that this game not happen at the upcoming party, b) accept the game is happening but ask that it not happen in the future, or c) say nothing?
    2. If you know the problems but it is not problematic for you personally, would you submit a photo?
    3. If you would both participate and push back in some way, how would you do it?
    4. If you are someone for whom baby/kid photo things are problematic, but you are under no pressure to submit a photo, how do you feel about the game happening around you?

    Reply ↓
    1. Abigail*

      I think it’s impossible to select an activity like this that has 100% enthusiasm.

      As long as these types of events do not consistently cut off the same group of people I think they can continue.

      I wouldn’t want to participate in this event but I wouldn’t complain about it, either. It’s okay to just sit out every now and then.

      Reply ↓
    2. HannahS*

      I get the problems but it’s not problematic for me personally. I wouldn’t participate because I don’t celebrate Halloween, but I wouldn’t bother to object. If there isn’t pressure to participate and the expected ratio is 15-30 people out of 100, then it’s clearly an opt-in activity. Most “fun” office activities are exclusive in some way–physical activities, food-related activities, party games, anything with alcohol.

      I don’t get why an office would celebrate Halloween–or any holiday. I mean, I get it, but I don’t enjoy it, because the holidays celebrated aren’t my holidays. This activity seems to really bother you, but it’s worth considering that some people will be bothered by the celebration itself. I still wouldn’t raise it at work and I wouldn’t be more than mildly bothered by it happening around me. I mean, I’ll take free candy! But

      Reply ↓
    3. Part time lab tech*

      If most people are opting out, I’d let it be. It might hurt a little if there are bad memories associated with childhood Halloween, like seeing babies after having a miscarriage, but other people are allowed to share their joy in childhood Halloween. That pain would be mine to manage.
      If it was a phobia, I’d probably try to be elsewhere that day.

      Reply ↓
    4. Cordelia*

      I think it’s ok so long as it’s only a small part of the entertainment and it’s easy to opt out and avoid it altogether without it being a big deal.
      It’s the being expected to provide a picture that is problematic, for all the reasons you suggest, but being in a room with pictures of other babies in Halloween costumes is not likely to be distressing.

      Reply ↓
    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you are someone for whom baby/kid photo things are problematic, but you are under no pressure to submit a photo, how do you feel about the game happening around you?

      I am not one of these people, but if I were, I suspect I would feel “oh, great, yet another opportunity for me to feel othered/left out.”

      Reply ↓
      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I’ll offer a counterpoint. I am one of those people– sharing a photo like that would mean sharing some info about my family that I don’t like to discuss. (To put it plainly, all of my childhood Halloween photos also feature family members from whom I’m estranged.) I just don’t share photos. If no one’s pressuring me, then I don’t really care. And I actually like seeing my co-worker’s kid photos! But I don’t feel left out.

        I was pressured once. Small company. They wanted me to share a baby picture of myself for the Christmas tree. I don’t celebrate Christmas, so I just ignored the request. The office manager came after me. She finally let it go, but I had to be very firm and forceful, and I’m still pissed she put me in that position.

        Reply ↓
    6. Rick Tq*

      1 – Say nothing since it is clearly voluntary now. Those who enjoy it submit photos, those who don’t for any reason don’t.
      2 – No

      Reply ↓
    7. Cheshire Cat*

      If most of the staff won’t bring in a picture and no one is pressured to bring one, I wouldn’t worry about it.

      Reply ↓
      1. CTT*

        This is where I land. If it was a small office and an omission would be noticeable, it’s worth speaking up. But such low participation – that I imagine is due to a variety of factors and not just those you’ve listed – means that no one is being singled out for not bringing in a photo.

        Reply ↓
    8. Clisby*

      I wouldn’t care about the game, but I couldn’t possibly submit a photo – I’m 71 and have absolutely no photos of my childhood self dressed in a Halloween costume. Come to think of it, I don’t recall ever taking pictures of my 2 kids in their Halloween costumes, so they might have no record either.

      I should have taken a picture of my now 22-year-old, out Halloween-ing as The Dude from The Big Lebowski when he was 9 or 10, but too late now.

      Reply ↓
    9. Tech Industry Refugee*

      I’d let it go. Sharing childhood photos, in or out of costume, is a pretty common/ordinary office activity that is intended to be fun, especially if people aren’t being forced to participate. I feel like the thoughts in this post are a tad blown out of proportion.

      If someone has a personal problem with the activity, they are welcome to not participate and/or speak up. They are also equally welcome to not say anything about it if it’s uncomfortable for them to do so – many people do not want to reveal their unfortunate childhood circumstances. I wouldn’t make it a “thing.”

      Reply ↓
    10. noname today*

      I hated these—all of
      My kiddo pics were black and white while everyone under 50 were in color. Immediate age-ism followed. Hence I always refuse to take part and feel bad about it.

      I would speak up for all the other reasons you mentioned and suggest an alternative activity instead. Pumpkin decorating contest (small hand-sized ones, markers, etc) come to mind.

      And if they are dedicated to it for this year strongly recommend it for next years.

      Reply ↓
  24. Someone*

    After reading many letters on AAM, I am getting sceptical about the concept of ‘unprofessional’.

    ‘Unprofessional’ sounds like ‘I don’t like it’ without any real meaning. It’s used by bad managers to attack employees. To quote the bizarre Leap Day boss: “My manager feels her complaints are petty and she needs to be more professional. I agree with him.”
    If she quietly went along with not getting a birthday off, she’d be ‘professional’. By correctly standing up for herself, she’s ‘unprofessional’.

    Bad bosses & coworkers have used the term ‘unprofessional’ (or synonyms) for:
    Objecting to discrimination (including leap year-based).
    Quitting after a manager refuses a reasonable time-off request.
    Having menstrual cramps.
    Having menstrual products.
    Having a cold sore.
    Unbuttoning a shirt in a heatwave.
    Wearing the same item of clothing twice in one week.

    Can anyone give a reasonable definition of ‘unprofessional’ that can be universally applied and not abused by bad bosses?

    Reply ↓
    1. T. Wanderer*

      I don’t think there is one. Unprofessional = outside professional norms for the context; that context is going to vary by job! If you are a bigshot lawyer and expected to wear suits, it would be “unprofessional” to wear the same outfit as a summer camp counselor. The idea of “professional norms” is a very nebulous space, and it’s weaponizable (and debatable — see any letter about how to address someone in the workplace).

      Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There’s plenty of serious, real-world, adult stuff that doesn’t even come close to those things.

      Unprofessional: sharing confidential information with clients or other outsiders, reacting emotionally in client communications, interrupting or distracting coworkers with irrelevant communications or loud noises, interacting with colleagues differently based on personal considerations instead of work needs, badmouthing your employer or your clients on social media.

      Professional: keep your s*** together in public, be cognizant of company culture and conform to it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Seven times*

        This is a good list. I’d add that professionalism includes engaging in best practices. For example if your business has some kind of regulated procurement requirements or standard communication practice (even internally), not abiding by these would be unprofessional to perform duties while ignoring these (like keeping a paper trail for continuity of information).

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    3. Ostrich Herder*

      I think professionalism is kind of inherently subjective, which is the thing that makes it so easy for bad managers to abuse. “Professional” isn’t an objective standard, it’s a social norm, and it’s going to vary by the social group (office) that uses it, and some social groups (offices) are going to have norms that are unlike other groups’.

      I do want to add, though, that this is a pretty common semantics problem, in general. Language is so inherently flexible that it’s very, very hard to define a word in such a way that no bad actors can get slippery with it.

      The classic exercise you’ll get in linguistics and philosophy classes is “What’s a definition of ‘chair’ that encompasses all chairs and no non-chair objects?” You get into the weeds quickly because it’s so subjective – a chair definitely needs a backrest of some sort, arms are optional, but is the number of legs disqualifying? Is a three-legged chair just a stool with a backrest? Surely it’s about seating just one person, too, to differentiate it from sofas and benches. Are those giant novelty beach chairs you can put a bunch of people on and take pictures in at tourist attractions therefore not chairs? Is it a proportions thing, then, so that the big novelty beach chairs which are proportioned for one enormous person but can fit many smaller ones still count? You have to get really, really, really granular and technical before you can get a definition that meets the criteria, and even then, if you run into friends at a restaurant and one of them say “Hey, I didn’t expect to see you here, welcome, pull up a chair!” and someone brings over a tall barstool with a back… Anyone who’s like “Well TECHNICALLY that’s not a chair, go put it back” in a serious way is probably not getting invited to dinner next time.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tio*

        The other problem is also that people will just often use the word wrong, either because they don’t understand it or because they’re deliberately trying to cover something up under the guise of this other thing! I think a lot of the examples of “unprofessionalism” mentioned are just bad bosses trying to throw a veneer of acceptability over their unacceptable behavior. Loads of people do this with other things too, not just “professionalism.” That’s kind of the definition or abusing a word or system – using it outside of its intended purpose.

        Reply ↓
    4. NaoNao*

      To me, the best definition of unprofessional is “prioritizing your personal comfort and needs or emotions above the needs of the business”. That applies to a lot of things, and it’s often unfair and crappy, like needing to carry certain products or even having a period. But that’s what I take away from that, and my experience in the corporate world. Any time you put yourself as an individual in some way above the collective corporate entity, it’s “unprofessional”.

      Reply ↓
    5. bamcheeks*

      I talk about this with new grads when I’m teaching leadership and management. I have a slide that has a picture of an East Asian man in a suit and tie, and a Black man in a hoodie and denim jacket, and it says, “Which of these is more professional (and why is this a trick question?)” Then I talk about the fact hat when I did my Google image search for “Professional”, nearly all the photos looked like the first one, but that there are plenty of professional settings where the second would be just as professional. :)

      So the answer for me is that there are three ways of using the word “professional”. The first, and worst, is a shorthand for a very narrow and authoritarian idea of “professionalism” which is broadly corporate and, as you point out, is usually about putting the corporation’s / capitalism’s / the boss’s needs over the workers.

      The second, which I get everyone to think about for themselves, is about meeting the standards of your profession. So for scientists that might be about high standards in your research, not cherry-picking, not plagiarising, being aware of safety in the lab. For someone who works with young people, it might be about the relationships you have with them, and what you do and don’t do in their best interests, what language you use with them and why. For someone who works in finance it might be about ethical probity and careful attention to detail. And you might well have professional standards and ethics which aren’t directly in line with what your employers want.

      The third, which overlaps with both the other two but which I think is also useful as a third, distinct thing, is a kind of professional etiquette, which has more in common across sectors, around things like what language you use at work and how you present yourself. So things like meeting deadlines, communicating effectively, limiting the impact that bad moods or external pressures have on your co-workers, not starting emails with “Hey girlie”! And like non-work etiquette, there’s a tension between “a set of formal rules that everyone should follow” and “a set of flexible rules of which the most important one is to think about other people’s comfort as well as your own”.

      So I think there are a lot of grey areas, and there can also be a lot of tension around professionalism as cultures change and what used to be unacceptable becomes acceptable and vice versa, but I don’t think it’s a completely useful concept. It is one you should actively think about rather than apply thoughtlessly, though.

      Reply ↓
      1. peter b*

        This is a really lovely and clear framework! It’s really nice to know someone is teaching new grads not just rules but guidelines for how to judge and interpret norms like this.

        Reply ↓
    6. Ferret*

      There is no universal definition of politeness or reasonable but that doesn’t make them concepts that don’t apply in the office. An example of unprofessional behaviour that would apply almost everywhere would be insulting coworkers or clients.. but then you have to ask for a universal definition of “insult”……

      Bad bosses will abuse anything.

      Reply ↓
  25. Aurora*

    I started at a new job in June and I feel miserable. I started listing my complaints here, and by far the biggest is that my responsibilities are unclear. My work involves coordinating a lot of things between different people and I don’t like it, especially when there is disagreement on what is everyone’s responsibility. I am also a person who wants to get things done, so I end up easily taking extra work for myself.

    My boss is in a different country and he knows very little what’s going on locally and cannot do much to support me. The rest of the team is also scattered in different countries, so no support from them either. I feel lonely at the office, and there isn’t really anyone with whom I would’ve been able to connect, though most of the people are nice.

    I knew most of those things when I was hired, but they bother me more than I expected.

    On the plus side, pay is good and I am again working in my “own” industry. I don’t know what I should do.

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Ideally stick it out a year. 6 months minimum if it’s absolutely soul destroying. Being back in your industry can really help build your career goals long term. Think of this job not as needing to be perfect but just needing to be survivable for the next 9 months (you’ve already made it 3!). Step up your out of work activities to meet your needs, social, enjoyable, etc. Spend a little more of your budget on fun stuff (crafts, concerts, books, whatever makes you happy) to compensate.

      Reply ↓
    2. LingNerd*

      First, there’s no shame in deciding this environment isn’t for you and finding a different job. But assuming you’re interested in sticking around…

      Have you tried talking with your boss, even if you don’t think they’ll be much help? Because they might be more help than you expect if you haven’t tried it. You may also be able to talk to other members of your team to ask if they’ve run into similar issues where they are, and how they handled it.

      When it comes to coordination, what about it don’t you like, specifically? And can you do anything to make it better? E.g. if everything is in email and it’s a disorganized mess to keep track of, can you use other software – project management software if it’s complex enough, otherwise maybe something like teams or sharepoint if it’s a matter of getting people all in a room together or collecting a bunch of relevant documents? Or if it’s socially exhausting, can you take off some of the burden by sending automated notifications or using email templates?

      When nobody is agreeing on which things they can take responsibility for, are you getting down to the why? A good question to ask would be “what would have to change for you to take on this task?” The answer might not be something you can do anything about, but it should give you an idea whether it’s a technical/expertise issue, a workload issue, or stubbornness.

      And for feeling lonely at work… do you have a social life outside of work? If not, that might be a place to put your attention. Some workplaces have a lot of interest in friendship, others are mostly filled with people who just want to mind their own business and meet their social needs elsewhere. It sounds like you might be in the latter kind of place, and that’s not very likely to change

      Reply ↓
  26. Ostrich Herder*

    Anyone have advice on avoiding being the messenger who gets shot?

    My work is technical, and I report directly to the owner of a small company. He doesn’t fully grasp what goes into technical work and, lately, has been committing to difficult or even impossible projects that our software simply can’t accomplish, but promising them to clients on short timelines and tiny budgets.

    I’m always friendly, solution-oriented, and respectful in these conversations, but the upshot of them is that at least twice a week the last few weeks, the owner has popped into my office in the late afternoon, and said “Hey, real quick, can you…” and then outlined something that is NOT real quick. I’ll always explain what I can do, in the time I have, but he quickly gets visibly frustrated when he realizes that he’s promised a client something that’s going to waaay outstrip the timeline and budget he projected for them. He gets visibly annoyed every time, and it’s starting to worry me.

    I know the broader structural issue is “the owner needs to either understand his team’s capabilities or not commit to things before he’s talked to people who understand” and I’m trying to schedule time for a broader conversation about that. But does anyone have any ideas or scripts for handling the conversations themselves in the meantime?

    Reply ↓
    1. Somehow I Manage*

      I think you could outline what you’re seeing as a problem – that there are some projects the owner has agreed to in the past that are either very difficult or not at all feasible simply because of technology constraints. Then ask the owner if there’d be a way for them to touch base with you/the team before agreeing to a project to ensure that the technical aspects, the timeline, and the budget are presented to the client so you both deliver results AND make money for the company.

      Reply ↓
    2. NaoNao*

      Maybe do a faux agreement and then at a later time when he’s not at peak enthusiasm, explain why you can’t.

      In the moment, respond to the emotion “Ooh, interesting idea. Let me look into it.” “Oh, hm! That does sound like a fun option. Let’s see if I can make that work.”

      Then later:

      “Okay, so what we CAN do is X. I researched your idea and here’s what I found…” focus on what you can do/can offer, etc.

      Reply ↓
    3. Nesprin*

      This sounds an awful lot like you need to have someone technical with outstanding judgement in the bid/client management process to give a more reasonable estimate. It might be worth asking to be cc’d on client communications or to sit in when estimates/timelines are being set.

      If your boss is regularly promising clients the moon without considering cost/effort, he’s leaving money on the table.

      Reply ↓
    4. HugeTractsofLand*

      This is a him problem! He should be running the idea by you before promising anything to clients. Maybe you can name the pattern and then ask him if it’s possible to bring projects to you before agreeing to do them? Or maybe you could even join his client calls so you can give feedback in the moment?

      I get that you’re worried that he’s frustrated at you/the situation, but the best way to handle this is to not get defensive, just calmly and clearly lay out how much time the task would take. I work in a technical role with non-technical people, so I always start out really broad (“as proposed, this project would take 1 week”) and then give a few more details when pressed (“this component takes 2 days and this part takes 3. Maybe we could just do component #1?”). Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    5. SleepyHollow*

      In my experience you will never really be able to fix this. Especially if the owner *thinks* he understands the tech aspect.

      The best I was ever able to manage was calm clear communication that the ask was not feasible. When the bigwig making the request got frustrated or annoyed because “it isn’t that complicated” I would point out recent examples when “uncomplicated” things were problems that had cost the company time and money. When I was told I was over thinking and over complicating I calmly pointed out that I would be thrilled to be proven wrong, but that I was not going to over promise and under deliver or deliver a subpar product.

      Reply ↓
    6. Tech Industry Refugee*

      “Hey boss, based on your description of what you need for task C, I estimate that I will need x hours for research, x hours for development, and x hours for QA to get this delivered to the client ASAP. That’s (x*3) hours total.

      I am already up to x hours this sprint/cycle due to tasks A and B. It sounds like task C is a priority and I want to ensure that we provide the best possible result. Can we check with Mary and Jake to see whether they could take over some of A and B for me so that I can get C out the door for you?”

      Reply ↓
  27. Inver*

    Does anyone have tips for internal interviews? I have an initial one next week for a position that’s sort of a diagonal move above me.

    My work is closely enough related that I can put in a good case, but I think I probably don’t have enough technical experience to get it.

    The big positive from that though is that there’s no pressure. I just want to give a really strong interview I’m proud of and see what happens.

    Any general advice on getting the most out of an internal interview would be useful, but I’m specifically interested in questions to ask at the end. Most of what I can think of, the culture, etc, I already know the answers to. I’m tempted by the difference between good and great/ do you have any concerns about me, but don’t want to miss a trick if there’s something that would work better when you know the interviewers/have a good understanding of the role.

    Reply ↓
    1. ThatGirl*

      You can ask different/better questions on internal interviews – more about management styles, team dynamics, what the technical requirements truly are. What would set a great candidate apart from a good one. What the challenges and strengths of the team are. That kind of thing.

      Reply ↓
  28. Chirpy*

    Is there a work appropriate way to say “I’m not antisocial, I just don’t want to talk to you in particular” ?

    One coworker told me I can “go be antisocial and lonely at home” when I asked him to please not turn up the breakroom tv (for five minutes until I left). I tried to explain that I find it really helpful and peaceful to have a few quiet minutes, he complained, then just started talking at me. I ignored him and he petered out. Until the usual Jerk Coworker arrived as I was leaving and they both just yelled at me that I need to compromise (which they can’t do for 5 minutes?? There was no one else in the breakroom when I got there, so I turned the TV down but not off, for exactly that reason.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Chirpy*

      Like, I’m decently pleasant with both of them, but the guy who called me antisocial is known for cornering women and just dragging out a conversation. Or he’ll just start talking in a room full of quiet people to fill the silence.

      Reply ↓
    2. Scriveaaa*

      Uh – no. You need to be able to politely communicate with all your coworkers. Sounds like he was rude, but unfortunately that doesn’t mean you get to be rude back.

      Reply ↓
      1. Chirpy*

        This isn’t work related conversation- we can have those just fine. It’s things like he just starts talking at me on break (just spouts a random thing into a silence, and keeps pushing to talk about anything) or he’ll have a legitimate question and then devolve into a story about his dog and I just can’t escape.

        Reply ↓
    3. Somehow I Manage*

      I don’t want to be unsupportive with this comment, because I love to have some peace and quiet too. But it seems like him talking at you stemmed less from him wanting to converse than it was about you not wanting the TV volume up. If that TV is on regularly and that’s a communal space, it seems reasonable that someone else could come in and expect to catch up on the news or SportsCenter or whatever he was doing to take a break too. He was rude and his comment frankly sucks, but I think there’s a reasonable expectation that a communal breakroom that others may be in there and there will be less peace and quiet than elsewhere.

      Reply ↓
    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      Headphones on break might be helpful. No one needs to know if you’re catching up on your audiobook or just playing white noise or silence. But it’s a very clear signal to not talk to you and can help drown out other peoples conversations. I’d also look at are there other break space options, stairwell, car etc that might give you that solitude you’re needing.

      Reply ↓
  29. Teacher's Wife*

    I accepted a job offer this week! Yay!

    However… This job involves a cross-country move, and my husband is a teacher who will have to quit his job in the middle of a school year as a result. He’s unsure how much notice to give since he’s never seen a coworker leave under similar circumstances (he’s only seen teachers leave mid-year if they get fired or go on maternity leave). His mentors have reassured him that this is a valid reason to leave mid-year, but he’s not sure how to handle it.

    What would be a good MINIMUM amount of notice to give as a teacher leaving mid-year? My husband keeps saying “as much notice as possible” but that isn’t helpful. I’m assuming it should be more than the 2 weeks of notice I’ll give at my own job though?

    The complicated part is that I’m waiting on the background check to finish before I consider it official and agree on a start date. I don’t think it makes sense for my husband to give notice before we actually know exactly when we’ll be moving, but he wants to give them as much of a heads up as possible, so he does not want to wait for the background check to finish. I’m fairly confident that my background check will go smoothly but there’s always a 1% chance that something could fall through, so it seems risky for either of us to give notice before that.

    Reply ↓
    1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Wondering if there’s a way you can go ahead of him, which will allow him additional notice? As HR and knowing how background checks can go unexpectedly south for some of the wildest reasons, I don’t recommend he give notice now. He’s better off giving notice once you’ve been formally green lighted for a start date.

      There are real benefits to having a partner hang back short term with these kinds of moves – dealing with moving logistics, etc. – and if you’re getting any sort of compensation as a result of the relocation all the better.

      Reply ↓
    2. Cheese*

      He’s right that “as soon as possible” is considered appropriate — in general, I’ve seen people who leave midyear try to finish out a quarter/semester/trimester, whatever the school runs on if that’s possible. If he’s union, he should check his contract to see if there’s any language about it, as well.

      Reply ↓
    3. Who cares*

      I am not a teacher, but I suspect (given the teacher shortage) that the risk of your husband being pushed out early is much lower than for other professions. So there is potentially not much risk for him telling them now. And if the offer fell through for some reason, they’d likely just let him stay, but I understand your concern.

      Reply ↓
    4. HugeTractsofLand*

      I work at a school and I think ideally your husband would give at least a month’s notice. Schools want consistency for the kids and gradebooks, so they’re very unlikely to push him out early. If he’s able to time things so he finishes up the term (quarter/semester/trimester/etc), that would be best. A lot of schools have a stable of subs they can pull from to fill the teacher gap before they hire a long-term sub.

      Reply ↓
    5. HonorBox*

      How good is your husband’s relationship with his principal or HR? This might be a situation where I’d suggest going to them, outlining that you’ve received a job offer and don’t have anything official for start date yet, but he wants to check to see what expectation there is for him giving notice once you have something concrete from new job. It would be ideal for him, I have to imagine, to finish out a grading period and give them enough time to find a long-term substitute. If he floats this as a real possibility and is asking to help the school as best as he can, I would guess that he’ll get a good answer and more support in the long run.

      Reply ↓
    6. M2*

      He should give as much notice as possible so they can find another teacher.

      Most likely those kids will end up with a long term sub unless he gives more notice. My child had a long term sub when a teacher gave 2 weeks notice and another one who had a long term sub when their teacher went on mat leave and both subs were awful. I live in a town with the top school system in the state and one of the top 4 public school states in the Us. I pay an insane amount in property taxes so teachers are paid well and given excellent healthcare and pensions.

      I would wait until the check comes through then as for longer start date so he can give more notice. 2 weeks notice is not enough time and it is not fair to the students. Also, what is in his contract? Is he in a union? He should check with the union but it would be good to finish up the year so they can have a new teacher start in January. Any job can wait for you to start in January 2 or you move ahead of your husband who can stay there and stay with someone for a couple weeks to finish out the school year. I have lived away from my spouse for months at a time and it’s fine.

      I wouldn’t want that bridge burned for him where someone calls for a reference and they hear he only gave 2 weeks notice as a teacher or you having to move back cross country and they know him not by being a good teacher but by how he left.

      Congrats on the new job!

      Reply ↓
      1. HonorBox*

        Your contract/union points are great. I’ll second that as additions to what I said above. There may be guidance there, and I’d check with a union rep before going to the principal or HR.

        Reply ↓
    7. Cards fan*

      Retired teacher here. Our state required 30 days notice for mid-year moves such as this. Shorter notices could trigger suspension/revocation of our state’s teaching certificate (now they are licenses). With the current teaching shortages, I doubt the state messes with anyone’s license unless the notice/reason for leaving is particularly short or egregious.

      Reply ↓
    8. Clisby*

      Is there some reason he needs to move at the same time you do?

      I understand both of you might consider that the ideal situation, but there are plenty of times when couples don’t move at the same time.

      I don’t know from the letter whether this is in the US, but if so your husband definitely should check on legal constraints. I have no idea how it works with a union, but in my state (SC) a public school teacher who breaks a contract mid-year faces the possibility of a year-long suspension of their teaching license.

      Reply ↓
  30. Justme, The OG*

    So… a coworker on a different team was told that their job would be going away at the end of the calendar year. We have stipulations that our jobs can go away per the needs of the programs (yay state universities) but I am not 100% convinced that their termination wasn’t for them belonging to a protected class. I don’t want to step on their toes and say something to HR if they don’t want to. But I also am pissed off that this happened.

    Reply ↓
  31. Alexis Carrington Colby*

    This is more of a vent, but has this happened to anyone else? This situation isn’t changing so I’m starting to look for a new job.

    My supervisor quit a few weeks ago, so now I’m reporting to his boss (“Blake”) for the time being while we look for his replacement. Blake is sexist, sneaky, and prefers to take the path of least resistance. He’s excellent at not making decisions and instead deflects onto everyone else.

    Now that my former boss left, suddenly Blake has all these projects and new things he wants the team to do, and since I’m the most senior member, this all falls on me.

    This is basically the glass cliff, but I’m just really annoyed at the situation with how he doesn’t say anything with my former (male) boss, and now that he’s left, I have to clean everything up.

    Also I’m like, why didn’t Blake talk to him about these things during their 1:1s? What on earth did they spend that time talking about?

    Reply ↓
    1. Annony*

      It is possible that they did talk about these things and either your supervisor had the capital/tenure/status to push back or it contributed to him leaving.

      I’m sorry you are dealing with it. It definitely sucks to have to deal directly with a sexist boss who has unrealistic expectations.

      Reply ↓
  32. Finn*

    This may be a stupid question, but what does a manager do all day? Surely, hiring and firing people, tracking everyone’s performance, and giving people performance reviews doesn’t take 8 hours each day, 5 days a week, 40+ weeks a year? So I’d guess there’s a lot of stuff that I’m not seeing… But what is all this stuff that’s not directly visible? Or does the stuff I did notice take much more time than I’d have expected?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Short-term planning.
      Long-term planning.
      Reviewing status.
      Making mid-course corrections.
      Communicating with clients/stakeholders.
      Reporting & analysis.
      Supporting sales & marketing.
      Lots and lots of reading – business news, policy changes, etc.

      Reply ↓
    2. KitKat*

      It depends on the manager and the role. I manage 2 people and spend 15-25% of my time on team management, depending on the week. The rest of my work is almost entirely unrelated. Of my team management time, I’m:
      – meeting with them
      – planning team meetings / discussion topics
      – reviewing their work & preparing to give feedback
      – helping them think through/develop their goals
      – meeting with others about requests for my team’s time
      – evaluating/scoping/planning projects before delegating to them
      – developing presentations for my bosses & peers about my team’s priorities & goals

      Reply ↓
    3. Tio*

      A lot of what management does is higher level policy planning and implementing, sourcing and scoping new projects, and establishing procedures. So someone in the ivory tower decides we’re going to start doing llama washing, I need to scope out how to schedule llama washings in the system, what supplies are needed, costs, process flow (i.e. should we wash them before or after the haircut?) and responsibilities. Now some of that involves breaking things down and assigning them to specific teams, like the scheduling I give the idea to the person who handles scheduling cuts, consult with them and possibly others on whether we can use the same system for washing, do we need a new one, etc. I have to hand out these responsibilities and follow up on them and test the plans and help troubleshoot. I have to liase with other departments for upstream and downstream implications. I also have to manage out external partners and their KPIs and meet with them to ensure we have capacity for future endeavors, and that they’re doing well on their current KPIs – which I probably was the one who established. (I being a manager, not necessarily the exact same one if there are already set KPIs, but I would be responsible for reviewing existing KPIs if I came in as a new manager). I order to plan for future endeavors I have to forecast and analyze or gather the forecasts and analytics. I have to review our budget. I have to keep an eye on my employees’ performance, through employee KPIs and head off any problem at the pass. I probably have a lot of meetings with other departments and higher management for goal alignment. And that’s just what I can think of here.

      Reply ↓
    4. Not That Kind of Doctor*

      It’s going to depend on the job, but generally speaking, most managers IME aren’t doing strictly people management.

      Reply ↓
    5. Name name name*

      Where I am, it’s a lot of support for issues that for whatever reason escalate, whether it’s advising the people who report to me or being part of other conversations to work through the problem.

      Reply ↓
    6. CommanderBanana*

      I just stepped into a management position with 2 direct reports that are new, plus my position is now open, so I am:

      1. doing 100% of my former job
      2. doing most of my direct report’s jobs because they are new, while
      3. trying to train them, while
      4. trying to teach them our office norms, while
      5. training them on our very complicated systems, while
      6. reviewing all their work, because they’re new, while
      7. going through all their work with them, which takes longer than if I just did it myself, while
      8. also traveling to conventions, whie
      9. also dealing with other ongoing, longer-term projects, while
      10. communicating all of this to my boss.

      Managing people has made my job much, much harder.

      Reply ↓
    8. Rex Libris*

      It’s very field and department dependent. Speaking for myself, part of it is the hiring, firing, check ins, feedback, evaluations, etc. Then there is strategic planning, guiding the overall direction of the department, making sure workflow is efficient, and that our department is adequately supporting the other departments.

      Beyond that, managing a fairly large budget with a lot of moving parts, reviewing, writing and implementing policies and procedures, working with other managers on system wide projects and problems, maintaining organizational statistics, overseeing and maintaining several computer services, functioning as a subject matter expert in certain areas, committee work, covering other essential functions when staff are out, etc.

      Reply ↓
    9. Stuff*

      This is going to be very workplace dependent, but personally, I spend half my time doing the same work tasks I did before I was a manager, and a lot of the remainder acting as my department’s representative in meetings with other departments and outside agencies. 95% of the new tasks becoming a manager put on my plate involve meetings where I have to speak for the activities or interests of my department or my university.

      Reply ↓
  33. Elsewise*

    Small work win! I negotiated an offer for the first time ever!

    Most of my life I’ve ever been too inexperienced to know I could negotiate, or too desperate to try. I resolved to do it no matter what when I got offered the job I’m currently in… and then the hiring manager came to me with an offer that was slightly above the “pie in the sky, I’ll ask for it but I know I won’t get it” number I had in mind. So I just accepted it as-is.

    Now a promotion I’ve been waiting for for ages finally came through! My boss has done a great job advocating for me, and privately told me that I’m unlikely to get more money but should ask for other things. So I wrote out an email stating what I’d been looking for in terms of financial compensation, and offering a few other options. My boss told me they’d met with the person who will be supervising me and their mutual boss and all three of them were so excited to see me negotiate. According to my boss “it shows you’re enthusiastic about this job and that you know your worth.”

    So that’s my win! I’ll find out next week what their counter-offer is, but probably accept it regardless, because it’s still more money and a job I’ve been wanting to do for a while. I used a lot of advice on this site in crafting my response, so a huge thank you to Alison and to all of the commentators who’ve provided advice over the years!

    Reply ↓
  34. Ihmmy*

    I can feel myself getting closer and closer to burnout. We did a major software update a month and a half ago and I keep finding substantial bugs (the vendor has been good about helping with them but they can take a while to fix), I had a surprise short term medical leave amidst that, and we’re going to be trialing some new software soon. I haven’t even had time to look at the details of the new stuff, nor think proactively about anything – I’m just in constant trying to catch up or maintain bare minimums of our systems. Now we need to present to others about how our work intersects with a specific business priority (mine sort of barely does, my work is pretty siloed) and talk about how we can support others work… I can’t. Y’all I need them to support my shit, to talk about why it’s important when they work with stakeholders. I just really miss being able to think ahead a little instead of constantly feeling like I’m scrambling to keep things from exploding badly.

    Reply ↓
    1. Scriveaaa*

      Could you approach your presentation as a ‘Help me help you’ kind of thing?’ Even just thinking about it mentally that way could help it be less frustrating.

      Outside of that, I really hope you get a chance to breathe (or even better, a vacation) sometime soon.

      Reply ↓
  35. Dek*

    We had a Staff Appreciation Day this week. The main point was my coworker reaching 10 years. She’s one of three people in my department. Both our supervisor and the other coworker gave a short speech about how much they treasure here *and* stood with her to take her picture with her certificate.

    Not begrudging that. She’s a lovely person, does good work, and has helped put on some nice things for the staff.

    But.

    I hit my 10 year last year. And yeah, I got the certificate. And yes, I know my supervisor dislikes me, and I certainly wasn’t expecting *her* to give a speech, even though most supervisors at least said a few words. Which, she didn’t. She wasn’t even the one who presented my certificate. I took my photo alone.

    It hurt then, and it hurt again this year, seeing how *much* celebration my coworker got (heck, someone in another department even brought around a congratulations card, and I signed it but also like…yeah)

    Most of the time I’ve made peace with the fact that my supervisor and department members openly exclude me from their social things, that I’m the odd one out, that there are double-standards regarding time being made up etc. It’s how it is.

    It just…really stung this week. I wasn’t expecting it to, but it hurt. And it still frustrates me a bit that this is just…fine.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      I’m sorry. For what it’s worth, I’m proud of you. Is 10 years a good opportunity to take stock of whether it’s time to think about a change, or do you have reasons for staying that outweigh being out of step with the rest of this department?

      Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      I’ve definitely been there. For me, nothing is going to make it feel great, but at times like these I like to take stock; how much is it impacting you in wider ways? In some places the popularity contest doesn’t matter in the slightest to how you are treated professionally, it’s just that some people really put a lot of time into cultivating relationships and/or are thoughtless and don’t separate friendship from work. In other places, not being best mates with the clique is an active hindrance to getting on.

      Reply ↓
    4. You Don't Deserve That*

      The best thing I did for myself when I was in a similar situation was find a new gig. I don’t know how applicable that is for you in your situation, but I hope you are in a position to consider it. There were many other factors that had me job searching at the time, and this was nowhere near the top of the list of reasons I needed to leave that job. I honestly don’t think I factored it in. But! It was IMMENSELY helpful for my mental health to not be surrounded by people actively excluding me (or those that found going along with folks excluding me politically expedient). Being around people that are actively unkind messed with me in ways I didn’t realize and it was as if a fog lifted when I got out of there.

      Reply ↓
  36. Nail colors for work?*

    I’d love to hear people’s thoughts on nails/nail colors in the workplace! For those of you working in-person in an office, what is your sense of what nail colors/styles are appropriate for the office? Most of the blog posts on the topic I’ve seen are from before 2020, and I feel like workplace norms have shifted since then, even for those of us who do not work from home.

    (I’m wondering because I painted my (short, well-cared-for) nails black recently, and even though no one has commented on it, I feel like I’ve sort of broken a rule having black nails in a business casual office!)

    Reply ↓
    2. MsM*

      Depends how conservative the dress code is in general, I think. I wouldn’t wear my sparkly multicolored skittles if I worked in finance or corporate law, but here either no one notices or thinks they’re fun.

      Reply ↓
    4. Bella Ridley*

      It’s going to be largely too dependent on your office culture to say. Could go any way. If most other people dress very conservatively at your office, that will probably extend to nail colour as well. If it’s business casual and more relaxed, more colours probably open up. I think as a general rule, anything along the red-pink spectrum or in the nude family is going to be acceptable more or less anywhere nail polish is allowed in general. Dark colours are moving one step out of conservatism but not outrageously so, so a dark purple, brown, maybe even a navy blue are going to be fine.

      Where you might run into raised eyebrows would be anything super bright and colourful, glittery, nail art, or any of the more trendy nail shapes (might not be the place for stiletto or coffins). This isn’t to say that those are inherently unprofessional, because again it will depend on your office, but they might be looked at differently than a standard-issue ballet-slipper-pink manicure.

      Reply ↓
    5. Ferret*

      Black should be fine – I think that in most offices any monochrome option is ok as long as you keep them neat looking

      Reply ↓
    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My nails are currently dark blue. If I had a client meeting today I wouldn’t expect anyone to blink. I work in a fairly casual field– things do vary depending on industry and office. I have always worked in business casual offices, very client-facing, and I am a very conservative dresser. My nails are usually blue or purple or some variation thereof.

      These days, I think it’s less about color than it is about shape. There’s nothing wrong with long nails, but I’ve seen some very long, pointy nails with elaborate nail art, and if someone is client-facing I think that’s risky just because it’s such a statement that it can be distracting. You don’t want a client spending a meeting wondering how you take out your contact lenses. That said, I don’t think any nail style is truly inappropriate for an office unless your nails constantly make distracting clicking noises (most people I’ve known with super long nails know how to type without that being an issue).

      Reply ↓
    8. Too Long Til Retirement*

      I’m a designer and I wear whatever color I want! Sometimes I feel weird about wearing a bright neon green to a big meeting so I will choose something else depending on the upcoming week, but overall I have flexibility.

      Reply ↓
    9. Watry*

      I checked and our handbook says that fingernails must be “of a conservative tone, color, and/or design”, raised elements are not allowed, and neither are bright or neon polish colors. However, this policy is the same for Llama Groomers, Llama Watchers, and people who don’t even come into contact with the llamas, so frankly I think it’s overdoing it a bit for most people. Bright blue (or black) polish is not going to scandalize the public.

      Reply ↓
    10. CommanderBanana*

      I feel like black nail polish has become way more common, especially in the fall/winter when everyone’s busting out the darker colors.

      This is really job- and office-dependent.
      I wear the same color red year-round and I wear almond dip powder nails that come to a point just beyond my fingers. I can’t wear them longer because I start having trouble typing. I have coworkers who have worn statement nails and it was just their Thing, like someone wearing a particular color lipstick or type of shoe.

      The only time I had a coworker who nails were distracting was a marketing admin who wore the longest, sharpest, curved-est talon nails I have ever seen. They were like 5 inches long. She only ever wore solid colors, no rhinestones or designs, and talon nails were clearly her Thing, but they were so incredibly long and sharp and curved that I always wondered how she navigated life with them.

      Reply ↓
    11. Keep it Simple*

      Anyone who worries about their co-worker’s nail polish color has WAY too much time on their hands. Do whatever nail colors float your boat!

      Reply ↓
    12. Rex Libris*

      Among our managers, I know at least one person regularly paints their nails black, and one favors sparkly purple or blue. Admittedly it’s a public library and not a corporate office, so mileage may vary.

      Reply ↓
  37. corporatekween*

    This is possibly a really out-there question, but it came up in conversation with a friend recently, so I’m curious to see what the AAM community thinks!

    Professionally, I’m currently in a hybrid admin/customer service role. I’m also a drag queen, and for the past year-ish I’ve been working regularly with the staff of a local bar to organize performances to showcase local drag talent. I don’t plan on leaving my current job any time soon, but I’ve been contemplating updating my resume to include the event planning I’ve done with this bar. So I guess my question is twofold:

    1) Should I do this? I’ve gained a lot of valuable event planning and marketing skills from doing this, so I think it would add to my resume, but I know that there’s been a lot of anti-drag sentiment floating around and I don’t want to risk that causing problems in my job search.

    2) If I did do this, how would I include the information on my resume? I get paid per show, but I’m technically not employed by the bar (woooo, artistry!). The bar management knows who I am and would be able to speak to my experience there if someone reached out, but since I’m technically not an “employee,” should I still list that under experience, or would I be better off putting this under voleunteer activity?

    Reply ↓
    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      1) One way of looking at this is, if they wouldn’t hire you because you did event planning for drag shows, they also wouldn’t want to hire you if they knew you were a drag queen, and maybe that’s a good way of pruning that kind of employer.

      2) You don’t have to have an employer for it to be a job – sounds like that’s just a self-employed side gig for you.

      Reply ↓
    2. Yes And*

      Easy part first: You’re a contractor, and that’s resume-worthy experience. You don’t have to be an employee to claim paid experience as work.

      I’m not qualified to say whether you *should* disguise the nature of the events you’re planning in order to avoid other people’s bigotry. But if you chose to do that, it should be easy enough to do. You list the name of the bar as the business that hired you, the dates you worked with them, and describe the nature of your accomplishments in planning and marketing these events. (Successfully produced # weekly events, increased attendance by y%, etc.) You don’t have to state the content of the events.

      Reply ↓
    3. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      Does the bar pay you for the work? Or is otherwise paid event planning? If so, I would include it as consulting or independent contractor work. If you are doing it for free, I’d put it in a volunteer section.

      Reply ↓
    4. Person from the Resume*

      You are a self-employed producer of the show. I assume you recruit the performers, do marketing (social media, online, not online signs), plan the show, organize the logistics (online ticket sales, someone taking money at the door, etc), manage the personalities, etc. Great skills.

      OTOH I know this because I am friends with burlesque producer and comedians who organize and host shows. I wouldn’t bat an eye, but you know the attitude of your region and can take a guess at the the nature of the business you’re applying for.

      Reply ↓
  38. Dek*

    Different comment because this one is more a request for practical advice, but has any government employee here ever had any luck requesting for their pay to be bumped up to the next quartile?

    We had a pay adjustment a couple years ago, which was desperately needed, but I’m still below the first quartile (above minimum though), even though I’ve been here for ten years. I figure maybe it a thing to talk to payroll about? But I’m not sure how to even begin to go about it.

    Reply ↓
  39. Anon for this*

    Would love advice or comments –

    I’ve recently started at an organisation where one of my direct reports is responsible for coordinating Teapot painting/ Teapot reviews. One of those roles where you are reaching out and checking in with a lot of people on whether work is happening. They work a very flexible schedule – compressed hours that are sometimes well outside usual office working hours with the non working day happening on different days each week.

    They are on top of their work, just they seem to catch up on work areas in big blocks – so it may not be unusual to log in one morning and find a big block of emails/meeting invites/replies to messages from them. I find this quite hard to adjust to (lots of information in one go, sometimes several emails on the same topic adding additional minor points sent a minute or two apart) and I’ve heard others in different departments giving this feedback too.

    I don’t want to be unfair here – others may also be working compressed hours but for whatever reason don’t send these huge blocks of messages out. Nor do I want to be slow in replying – but I know I’m doing that at the moment/only skimming the block of messages as the volume in the one go feels hard to digest /action.

    Am I being unfair here – and/or what feedback would you give to try to make the email flow a bit less all or nothing? Thanks

    Reply ↓
    1. Mutually supportive*

      I think this is more about being comfortable with your own workflow than giving feedback to them – can you learn to be comfortable with a block of emails “looking at you” for a while, knowing in your own mind that it’s perfectly reasonable to take all day to get around to answering them all (exactly as you would of they’d been sending them ad-hoc during the day).
      That is, can you manage your own expectations of you?

      The exception would be “adding minor points a minute or two apart” – if this is meaning that they follow up the same email multiple times as new thoughts pop into their head, then there’s definitely a conversation to be had about them taking more time to respond to the email fully and properly (are they trying to answer in a rush and not thinking properly?)
      Maybe they could draft their emails and save them, and then go back to review the drafts before sending? It’s reasonable to point out that them sending multiple responses to one email is generating more work for everyone else.

      Reply ↓
    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      They could use schedule send, to stagger their emails over a couple days but that seems unnecessary to me (and what if some of that block of info was urgent?) .

      For the too many emails complaint – Are there other forms of communication that would work better for the people getting annoyed with too many emails? Would a shared spreadsheet tracking progress be easier to check and comment? Would a dedicated slack channel they could mute work better?

      For the 3 emails in the same chain in 10min – you could suggest your report save emails as drafts, then send once checking everything is included. This approach does risk something coming up while an email sits in draft and getting stuck as a draft and forgotten though.

      For the too much information in one email complaint – I’m not sure how to address that one. Again maybe look at are there different forms of communicating this that would be better (slide deck, pdf of instructions on a share drive etc).

      Reply ↓
  40. Nicosloanica*

    My boss is being fired/demoted and is warning me all sorts of things that probably don’t apply to me. “Don’t talk to this person, don’t have any one-on-one meetings with X, make sure to rewrite your job description now and defend yourself from Y and Z duty being added on.” I can’t tell her that in reality my goal is to get a new job and leave (this place is a dumpster fire) so I’m not sure what to say when she tells me these things. She’s equally guilty as the new person of dumping things that are outside my ‘technical’ job description on me anyway, and is actively doing so as she delegates tasks she won’t be able to do anymore, so it’s a bit rich. I do have sympathy for how hard this is on her, and it’s unfair in some ways, although to be honest she did just as bad or worse to past employees who I also felt empathy for.

    Reply ↓
    1. KitKat*

      I would be very bland and try not to get deeply engaged. “Thanks for sharing that with me.” “Okay, that’s interesting to know.” “Hmmm I’ll keep that in mind.” Remind yourself that it will stop on its own as she acclimates or you exit, whichever comes first.

      Reply ↓
  41. Aggretsuko*

    Well…would it have been any better for her to obviously, grudgingly, rudely pose for a picture with you or sing your praises when she dislikes you? Or have no praises at all and go “Here’s your award” and walk off? That seems to me to be worse than if she did what she did here.

    I get it. It sucks to be hated in the office when everyone else is loved. But her doing what she did seems better to me than her showing open dislike while going through the motions, I guess.

    Reply ↓
  42. Tradd*

    Removed — I prefer people not use the open thread as simply a log of what happened at work that week, but please feel free to post any specific questions.

    Reply ↓
  43. librariandragon*

    Not so much a question, but a thank you (to Allison and the commentariat). I’m scrolling through advice and comments trying to calm my nerves in advance of a second (final) interview this afternoon. I’ve become more confident in asking questions and advocating for myself, and even if this position doesn’t work out, I feel less defeatist about my chances thanks to the community of this site. <3

    (Send good vibes towards the East Coast in about two hours for me. I think if I tell myself not to panic enough it might keep me from shaking out of my shoes!)

    Reply ↓
  44. Annony*

    It is so hard to sit back and wait after an interview! I had an in person interview on Monday and I want to know if I got it or not. They told me I was the third of three candidates they interviewed and that it will be a few weeks until they make anyone an offer so I know it won’t be soon, but it is so hard to stop thinking about it. I don’t think that I am their ideal candidate (I am not as experienced as they probably want and my timeline is not ideal and can’t be changed) but I just want to know!

    Reply ↓
  45. Anonny Bonnie*

    Six months ago, I hired a new employee, Pearl. She had exactly the experience we needed, she interviewed well, and she’s extremely smart and good at the technical aspects of her job. However, we began to get complaints about her that she was cold and wasn’t making our customers feel welcome enough. I own a very small business that advertises only by word of mouth, so any negative feedback puts the business in jeopardy. I had my assistant talk to Pearl about this feedback a couple of times, but we kept getting complaints, so I had Pearl record some of her Zoom meetings with clients. She seemed stressed a lot of the time, sometimes her tone was flat, and she didn’t smile enough. At her 6-month review, I put her on a PIP with a goal of being warmer and more welcoming to clients, with concrete action steps to smile more, try meditating for five minutes before meeting with clients, and put some inspirational quotes on post-its on her laptop. She seemed very shocked to be put on a PIP, and teared up, but she calmed down when I went over my notes from one of her Zoom meetings and pointed out all the ways she had made the customer feel unwelcome through her tone and body language. The PIP had an end date of a month, and I’m recording all of Pearl’s interactions with clients until then with a camera in her office. I’m reviewing them with her weekly and showing her the places where she can improve her client interactions. I feel like I was very proactive in taking care of this problem and providing her with specific ways to improve. I’ve never had to deal with this before, but I feel like I did everything right.

    Well, Pearl handed in her notice. She’s leaving in a month. I’m devastated. She has over 20 clients, and I’m not sure how I’m going to manage to reassign them; some of them want things that no one else at my company besides Pearl can do. I’m also not sure what to tell the clients. A lot of them really like her, and might be angry that they came to my business to work with someone who ended up leaving so soon. I’m afraid we’re going to lose clients because of this.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      I’m surprised you’re surprised, honestly. I think going straight to the PIP was an overreaction; there should have been at least one prior discussion where you simply expressed concern at the feedback you were getting and asked her to work on it or offered coaching resources. I also think that even a non-socially anxious person would have started shutting down and making missteps if their every move was going to be picked apart by camera.

      If Pearl was really too important for you to lose, was there no way to advocate for her with the clients that just because she’s not smiling doesn’t mean she’s not deeply committed to the work? Or shift her responsibilities to allow her to focus on the technical stuff and/or the clients who appreciate a non-nonsense approach, and let someone else handle the front line communications with the ones who need more gladhandling? It’s almost certainly too late now, but things to think about before you make your next hire.

      Reply ↓
    2. Tio*

      I mean… I’m sorry, but meditation and post it notes are silly for a PIP. Tone, smiling, and friendly language are good targets for someone doing sale/customer service, but if you wanted to work with her on that you should have scheduled some practice meetings with her, where you could redirect her in real time.,

      Here’s what your PIP looks like to me:
      I don’t think you’re friendly enough to customer (valid). To fix that, I will tell you to put up post it notes and meditate (silly, and probably didn’t help – absolutely wouldn’t have helped me. not in any way solid solutions or feedback) and I’m going to record you and then, after the fact, tell you everything you did wrong, in what is probably a very uncomfortable meeting where I nitpick you. (What other, actual proactive training did you offer her? Anything?)

      And you shouldn’t have had your assistant talk with Pearl first unless that assistant was her direct manager. This is a personal conversation, especially since it seems like it was important to you to have Pearl stay!

      Maybe Pearl was a bad fit and wouldn’t have succeeded either way, but most of the things you’ve listed here wouldn’t have helped a lot of people improve. I’m not surprised Pearl left. I wouldn’t have stuck around either.

      Reply ↓
      1. Nicosloanica*

        I think the part about fit is an important one. No one has to be wrong here TBH. You really need an employee who can be warm to employees and make them feel positively about your company. Pearl may have enough self-assessment knowledge to know she’s always going to struggle with that, and she can find other roles where it’s less important and she can use the skills she does have. You were hoping you could make her into someone who has those skills, but it’s not always possible or desirable from the employees perspective. It’s very logical for you two to part ways over this, and to be honest, it does sound like you really need someone who is good at those things! No employee is perfect, but you can hire for that next time.

        Reply ↓
      2. Keep it Simple*

        You told her to put post it notes on her computer with “inspirational quotes”? That’s kindergarten-level behavior. You could have helped identify a public speaking/public relations class she could take on company time, or set her up with a personal coach for a month or so to learn some Zoom norms. Instead, you slapped her on a PIP and spied on all her meetings, despite the fact that most of her clients liked her! Hopefully she’s gone somewhere more reasonable, and taken some of those clients with her.

        Reply ↓
    3. Annony*

      When you put someone on a PIP for not being friendly enough, it is reasonable for them to decide that the job is a bad fit. Many people with a lot of technical expertise do not necessarily have a warm and inviting way of interacting with clients and don’t necessarily want to change. It is easier to find a new job than change your personality. If you are getting complains from clients about her that were bad enough for a PIP, why would you lose clients over her leaving?

      You didn’t necessarily do anything wrong but neither did she. She doesn’t want to do what you need. If you didn’t really need her to be warmer in her interactions, then the PIP was the wrong call. But if you really do need that, Pearl leaving is a good outcome because that is not how she interacts with clients.

      Reply ↓
    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I mean… you basically told a woman she doesn’t smile enough and if she doesn’t look happier, she’ll be terminated. So she left. Maybe people would if given a PIP. Also not thrilled about delegating feedback to her assistant– why couldn’t that come directly from you? (If she reports to your assistant, then ok.)

      I think your approach to this was not good. Instead of giving her the feedback and working with Pearl to figure out ways to improve, you gave her instructions that might work for you without taking her style into account. Did this really need a formal PIP as opposed to feedback and discussion and check-ins? And then when she realized she couldn’t or didn’t want to “smile more”, she left. Your company wasn’t a good fit for her, which is information she took directly from you.

      To avoid this happening for you in the future, I suppose you should hire more for personality than skill. Which is fine, many of us in sales/account management were hired because we have great soft skills and we showed that the sales skills could be taught. But you focused on Pearl’s talent and skills– which are great things to focus on– and ended up making her personality a key factor in her performance. Something to ponder for the next hire.

      Reply ↓
    5. Pretty Pumpkin*

      I think it’s reasonable to expect Pearl to communicate in a warmer way to clients and work with her on that. However, if I were in her shoes I might have felt patronized, especially by inspirational quotes on my laptop and having all of my client interactions recorded would make me feel more nervous. I wonder if role-playing client interactions with Pearl would have been more effective?

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        Role-playing, scripts, flowcharts, talking points, Toastmasters, just talking through what she considers a positive client interaction and encouraging her to channel that into her physical presentation more…there are so, so many other options that could have been explored here that might have been more effective for Pearl’s style of learning.

        Reply ↓
    6. Nonprofit ED*

      I agree with all the comments. This was a confusing situation. First you say Pearl made customers feel unwelcome and then you say a lot of the clients like her. I would have resigned as well.

      Reply ↓
    7. CommanderBanana*

      You really can’t be surprised if someone leaves after being put on a PIP. PIPs are pretty generally accepted as being the first step towards firing someone, especially if it’s not specific metrics and more subjective stuff, like “being warmer.” I absolutely would not stay at a workplace after I had been put on a PIP. I’m also having trouble understanding how her clients “really liked her” but you get kept complaints about her?

      Either way, managers should know that PIPs are a pretty nuclear option. We just put someone on a (deserved) PIP at my workplace and he quit without notice a day later. We knew that would be likely to happen.

      Reply ↓
      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        I’ve always heard that if you are put on a PIP your performance improvement at work is secondary focus, you should be focusing on finding a new job first. Like PIPs are just a way of firing you without the company being sued.

        Reply ↓
    8. Person from the Resume*

      This …
      A lot of them really like her, and might be angry that they came to my business to work with someone who ended up leaving so soon

      does align with this …
      complaints about her that she was cold and wasn’t making our customers feel welcome enough.

      If someone is on a PIP, they are close to being fired. If they do not think they can meet the PIP goals, they should start looking for a new job. Her leaving was a potential outcome of the PIP.

      Too late now, but in retrospect what should you have done? I think you need to figure out if what you should have done first us reassign the clients who wanted more warmth to other employees and let Pearl continue to manage the ones who really like her and came to your business for her.

      Reply ↓
    9. Busy Middle Manager*

      I am surprised you’d film meetings (that is out of line IMO), but did you actually go back and watch them and did you learn anything? Also motivation quotes are weird to use. Maybe she just has a different frame of mind. I know people here think personality types are bogus, but for reference, I got INTJ the three times I took it. I’ve presented at a few big customers at my last two jobs and most big institutions seem to like the dry no-small-talk but obsessive data-driven presentations that think outside of the box (sorry for all of the cliches:-/).

      What I am building up to is: very likely that Pearl worked with clients like that in the past and thought she was doing great.

      I mean, if someone is dealing with vendors (like you), they are in a decision making position with a budget, so might prefer the Pearl approach. Not smiles and talking about tv shows or whatever

      Reply ↓
  46. SubjectAvoacdo*

    I’m interested in hearing from anyone in supply chain/logistics work. My partner is a civil engineer working in structures, but is really interested in switching to supply chain. My thought is that an engineering background is desirable in a lot of fields that aren’t engineering, so he could maybe make the change into supply chain without any additional formal education. However, he is convinced that making this kind of career change would require another master’s degree, which is risky since he is in the country on a visa and going back to school would require a change in status. Does anyone have any insight on going from engineering to another industry, particularly supply chain?

    Reply ↓
    1. Tio*

      I’m a customs broker who has work in supply chain logistics for over a decade before moving t the supply chain division of a major retailer. Almost no one I know in supply chain logistics has a masters in it, including my directors here.

      That said, an engineering degree won’t give him any edge, but you don’t really need one depending on what kind of supply chain work you’re going for. He may have to start at entry level, but if he has never worked in supply chain, even with a masters degree they’re probably not going to jump him to a higher level. So what exactly does he want? Is it to skip entry level? That will be hard for a career change. Is it just to get in? That could be really easy, but just FYI, supply chain tends to be a very bad work/life balance type of job, as the mindset is very “GET EVERYTHING THERE NOW” and a lot of people end up working some hours during nights or weekends.

      So what is it exactly about supply chain logistics that he finds appealing? If he can answer that, I can try and give more specific advice.

      Reply ↓
  47. Grinchy boss*

    One of my employees came in very excited for Christmas, and made some comments about it in a staff meeting inviting folks to participate in a Christmas event that they are very excited about. While generally innocuous (they’re just REALLY excited), we have some staff members who were in that meeting who are not Christian (including me, although I am not bothered by this kind of thing). The boss of one of the non-Christian staff members took me aside after the meeting to let me know that they are working on making the holidays feel more inclusive for everyone – which is awesome to hear! – because of a string of complaints from last year, and asked for a hiatus on the Christmas talk for now. When I spoke to my staff member, they got very sulky and have been giving me one-word answers since. Should I do anything further at this point, or just let it go since it’s Friday afternoon and see how they are next week?

    Reply ↓
      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        I imagine that tickets are going on sale about now for things like Transsiberian Orchestra or your local ballet doing The Nutcracker.

        Reply ↓
    2. Nicosloanica*

      What exactly did you say to the employee? To be fair she may just be unreasonable (it certainly sounds that way), but I’d feel that moreso if you said “we really want to promote a diverse company here and part of that is focusing on planning an inclusive holiday event, here is how you can be a part of that” or did you say “you can’t talk about christmas ever again.” While totally within bounds for a workplace, knowing this is something she’s enthusiastic about, the latter wasn’t going to go over well. If she keeps being sulky, I think you can call that out calmly and directly and tell her the attitude you need from her role. Always focus on the behavior you want, not what you don’t want.

      Reply ↓
      1. Grinchy boss*

        I asked them to please hold off on Christmas-specific talk for now, as we are planning holiday festivities that are inclusive of both our Christian and non-Christian colleagues later in the year.

        Reply ↓
    3. Tio*

      So, wait… there’s a meeting announcing the Christmas event, and at the meeting, the member made positive comments about it? And the boss wanted a hiatus on Christmas talk, because this member… was enthusiastic at the meeting where they talked about a Christmas event?

      This is ridiculous.

      If the boss wants better inclusivity, then the better option would be 1. to NOT have a “Christmas” event and 2. To add more things in the meeting celebrating non-Christian holidays, not get mad at an employee for being excited about their holiday.

      Reply ↓
      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        I think you misread the statement, or maybe there’s a missing comma. There was a staff meeting, and the person brought up the Christmas thing. Not “there was a staff meeting about Christmas and the person brought up a Christmas thing”

        Reply ↓
      2. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

        My reading is that the Christmas event was not a company event but something external that the employee was encouraging people to attend.

        Reply ↓
    4. Antilles*

      Since the weekend is coming up anyways, I would definitely lean towards letting it go for now. There’s a good chance that some cooling off time will just resolve the situation on its’ own.
      If it persists next week, then I would ask about the quietness and sulkiness in a “noticed you’ve seen a little off, what’s up?” manner without even directly mentioning the Christmas. There’s a decent chance that’ll straighten her up, without needing to revisit the holiday talk. But if she’s extremely annoyed about Christmas, then she’ll mention it, and at that point, it would be appropriate to have a bigger discussion how not everybody celebrates, the company would prefer to keep it equal, etc.

      Reply ↓
  48. Rheanna*

    Advice on relocating/finding a job

    I’m trying to move from my hometown to where my friend group lives but I’m having no luck with the job search. I’m wondering if it’s because my address is so far away/that companies think I don’t want to relocate.

    Any advice on how to job search while moving specifically?

    Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        Or ask one of your friends if you can use theirs as your “local address.” You might also mention in your cover letter that your planned move is one of the reasons you’re looking, and if you can travel to interview in person, make it clear you’re happy to do so.

        Reply ↓
  49. Frog*

    Question (sorry if this has been asked recently) How can you update your knowledge of Microsoft programs in a way that you can use to highlight the knowledge on a resume. I use Word and Excel frequently but not in ways that are verified by my employment history. I’d also like to be more familiar with other office programs but the Microsoft ones seem to be often requested in job listings.

    Is it necessary to go to community college classes? Online learning academies? Microsoft certification? I’ve done research online but it isn’t clear if any of the free resources are going to be useful for anything more then personal achievement.

    Currently, what are people recommending for updating skills in Microsoft (or Quickbooks or other common programs)?

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Just dump it in your skills section as Microsoft office . It’s considered pretty standard assumption that you know how to use it for most office jobs.

      If you are not feeling confident in your Microsoft skills check out your local library, they often have computer classes that are very low cost or free. At the very least they can point you to resources and have free computers to practice on.

      Reply ↓
  50. Name name name*

    For future job searching, how bad or not bad would it look to go from managing project managers of small to mid size projects, to a project manager of much larger projects? Context is government and building construction. I think there’s valuable and interesting experience to be had with the much bigger projects but don’t want to be stuck doing that forever. Or stuck managing PMs on small projects forever.

    Reply ↓
    1. Antilles*

      I’m in a construction-related industry myself and I can assure that you it’s not a deal at all. Zip, zero, zilch. That’s extremely normal career progression where you start by handling small projects before moving up to handle higher profile/higher value projects.
      The key though is think through the steps you’d take to translate the lessons you learned managing a $100,000 job and how you’d apply them to a $10m job. And vice versa if in the future you decide to return back to handling more smaller, quick-turnaround jobs. Because while the skills are certainly transferrable, that’s also a normal question for hiring managers to ask and make sure you’ve thought through.

      Reply ↓
  51. Margaret Cavendish*

    I would like to lodge a complaint. I’m required to be in the office today because of our hybrid work policy – the problem is that my home office has cats, and my downtown office does not. And I don’t think I should be expected to work under such conditions! Who should I speak to about this monumentally unfair labour practice???

    Reply ↓
    1. CommanderBanana*

      My dog would also like to lodge a complaint that her Merm, also known as the Noms-Giver and Warm-Lap-Haver, is cruelly forced to go into the office instead of working from the couch where she can dispense snuggles and a constant stream of snackies, and my poor pup is consigned to a day of loneliness* and starvation**.

      *she has a second mom who is home full-time
      **she is chunky

      Reply ↓
      1. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

        My sister’s dog has the same complaint today and thinks there is enough here for a class-action lawsuit.

        Reply ↓
  52. usuallylurking*

    Had my job eliminated last week… I had really liked the job and had no plans on leaving anytime soon. It was the first place in my career as a designer that I felt like my work and expertise was valued, and where I felt safe to speak up if I had other ideas or disagreed with direction. I’m really sad about it (and honestly pretty scared financially because the market is currently pretty dry).

    I don’t really have anything to add here… just wanted to get my thoughts out.

    Reply ↓
    1. CommanderBanana*

      That really sucks, I am so sorry. The job market feels totally schizophrenic right now. I’m in a totally different industry so have no advice to offer than solidarity. If you job is being eliminated, I hope you get severance, and maybe you can negotiate some assistance from your workplace, like getting references up-front or a referral to a headhunter?

      Reply ↓
    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      Sorry for that, I know it hurts especially bad now because there are constant articles and commentators on tv talking about how great the economy and job market are. I read the BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) reports and there was a big jump in restaurant and hospitality jobs last month. So even if you believe the numbers are final/won’t be adjusted, the jobs being created are all low pay. Also there was a reduction in average hour worked last month. Magically, the media forgets all of these things and just highlighted 254K total jobs created.

      It’s maddening not even being able to find jobs to apply to, then constantly being barraged with that! You are not alone

      Reply ↓
  53. iheartcardigans*

    Hi all, looking for suggestions for framing feedback in performance review meetings – specifically when someone has “meets the mark” of performance goals but is creating friction and challenges along the way. 

    Background: I have a small team of 4 staff doing highly visible work with multiple stakeholders. Our work often requires several rounds of problem-solving to get it into manageable forms, so close consultation across our team is valuable and improves our outcomes. One team member “Pat” has been in role about 6 months after doing related work in organization. Generally Pat’s work is getting done from fine to great in quality. I think they mean well and want to show initiative and be seen as a leader.

    There were some incidents of disagreement with their previous management, which was attributed to personality conflict. But … you guessed it: 6 months on, I see many similar patterns in Pat’s behavior & communication within my team and with me. I’ve also gotten feedback from other managers that Pat oversteps, “directing” staff on other teams or inserting opinions on other teams process, resulting in Pat being uninvited from meetings with those teams. 

    I’ve addressed all of these issues below already in individual conversations. I’ve also adjusted how and which details I provide when I assign work – to be much more specific in requests and thoughtful with feedback.

    However, I think I still have at least three issues to address, which are about receiving feedback and undertaking work:  
    – When I provide feedback, Pat becomes argumentative, defensive, or passive aggressive in meetings (example: “correcting me” on details or timelines right after I provide feedback). Pat has started framing my feedback as “what I want them to do” instead of our typical iterative feedback process.  
    – Pat has great initiative but often undertakes additional work at the expense of assignments, becomes attached to that work and tries to have it inserted into ongoing workflows, and lacks awareness of the ways that work might impact other colleagues (example: redesigning a workflow that improves our team’s work but has downstream effects from other staff in org)
    – Pat’s work often shows scope creep, changing the potential outcomes and shape of the work they’ve been assigned. Pat feels they’re leading that work, and dismisses my direct requests in favor of their vision of what that work should be. Of course we do take on approaches Pat offers! But sometimes I really must ask for the work to stay focused on specific goals or be delivered in certain ways.  When I provide guidance, Pat requests multiple meetings to discuss details to get aligned. So the work doubles or triples … And the pattern starts again with the next assignment. 

    All together these things are happening at least 3-5 times a week, and sometimes multiple times a day. As a result, I’m spending a good deal of extra time clarifying and reframing, or mending organizational relationships. This behavior is also frustrating and distracting to other team members, as it often takes over the planned agenda of team meetings. I’m exhausted and increasingly at a loss, even though I’m trying to have empathy for what might be driving these behaviors.

    I’d like to address these challenges in a generous but actionable way, alongside acknowledging accomplishments. Thanks for your thoughts!

    Reply ↓
    1. Rick Tq*

      It sounds like you haven’t been as direct as you need to be with Pat. In the next meeting with him you need to start by making it clear to HIM that continuing the negative behaviors you have discussed will result in him being fired.

      Complying with your management directions and limits is not a good idea, it is a requirement to keep his job.

      Reply ↓
  54. Cheshire Cat*

    Team building! I’ve thinking about this and imo my company handles it really well overall.

    My company does a few team-building activities every year. We are all remote, and scattered across the US, so the activities don’t involve things like rock climbing or ziplining. The company sends everyone a gift card for lunch (yes, we are small) and then the activity follows. We’ve had trivia contests and virtual Bingo, among others.

    Occasionally there will be a company-wide chat at a specific time on a given topic. These are, essentially, the kinds of things you might mention if you’re physically in the break room with other staff. What games do you enjoy playing, and why? (video, board, card…whatever) What book have you read and enjoyed recently? Do you have photos of your pets?

    No one is ever chastised for not attending or participating AFAIK. I don’t have pets but I enjoyed seeing other peoples’ photos. One of the activities from a couple of years ago was a virtual escape room, and the organizers disclosed up front that there could be jump scares. I do not enjoy those and said so when I declined. And sometimes someone has a tight deadline and has to drop out early, or not attend at all.

    Reply ↓
  55. Sally McSalamander*

    Is it worth talking to my workaholic coworker about how his lack of boundaries impacts me?

    Longer story: everyone I work with LOVES my coworker. We are both leads on the same team. He is endlessly accommodating and has no boundaries. He will work overtime without anyone asking him to, he will take on others’ workloads, he is always emotionally supporting others. AND YET. As his co-lead, I find him INCREDIBLY challenging to work with. He will not speak up for himself. We have another coworker who can talk at you for hours. I handle this by telling Chatty that I have three minutes to talk, then at the three minute mark say that I’m done and telling him he has to leave my office. Co-Lead will just…let Chatty talk at him. Which means that, since Co-Lead and I share an office, I often have to kick Chatty out. Co-Lead always thanks me, but I get the reputation for being unfriendly.

    Our boss is terrible. I will speak up and push back and usually manage to reverse some of his more horrible decisions. I also refuse to work outside my pay grade unless in very specific circumstances. Because of my boundaries, I have been able to enact some positive change in our division. Co-Lead will never say no, becomes increasingly terse (only with me) because of his rapidly growing workload, and literal legal requirements remain undone because he won’t stand up for himself.

    With our interns, Co-Lead is endlessly positive and supportive. He provides no structural or constructive feedback. He won Mentor of the Year for our intern program. I provided actual professional coaching (like, you must wear your shoes at a tabling event, your cover letter is actively hurting you so here is some feedback, check-ins, etc). I also assigned the interns projects and work tasks where he just had the interns doing whatever they wanted.

    Overall, he is exhausting. He will not assign people projects. He will not institute any structure because that might make people mad. I have had coworkers thank me for the structure and feedback systems I’ve implemented, so I know my changes are noticed and appreciated but it is SO exhausting being the ONLY one to do it. I am leaving. I start a new job in two weeks. And I’m wondering if it is worth it/appropriate to talk to my Co-Lead about how his behavior has impacted my decision to leave.

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Not worth it! Save your energy and mental energy for people who appreciate you! It’s highly unlikely the conversation with co lead would give you the outcome you want, it would likely just burn that bridge.

      Reply ↓

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