job application is fixated on high school academic performance

by Alison Green on November 19, 2024

A reader writes:

What do you make of employers asking job applicants about their high school performance? Besides the fact that I barely remember SAT or other score results from high school or college, is this even a real way to see how someone would perform at work? It feels infantalizing and not the best way to get a sense of someone is “smart” or whatever they’re looking for. Is this a red flag?

For reference, this is a general administrative position, exact questions below:

How did you perform in mathematics in high school? (dropdown menu of choices)
How did you perform in your native language in high school? (dropdown menu of choices)
Please share your rationale or evidence for the high school performance selections above. Make reference to provincial, state, or nationwide scoring systems, rankings, or recognition awards, or to competitive or selective college entrance results such as SAT or ACT scores, JAMB, matriculation results, IB results, etc. We recognize every system is different but we will ask you to justify your selections above.
What was your bachelor’s university degree result, or expected result if you have not yet graduated? Please include the grading system to help us understand your result, e.g. “85 out of 100,” “2.1 (grading system: first class, 2:1, 2:2, third class),” or “GPA score of 3.8/4.0 (predicted).” We have hired outstanding individuals who did not attend or complete university. If this describes you, please continue with your application and enter “no degree.”
Universities around the world score degrees in different ways. Please indicate your result, or expected result if you are close to graduation, along with information about the grading system.

It’s a flag for something, all right.

It’s one thing to ask for GPA when candidates are right out of school and don’t have much of a work history to point to. In that case, it’s a rough — and extremely imperfect — stand-in for “smarts and accomplishments” for candidates who don’t have a track record at work. But (a) it stops being relevant as soon as people have a bit of work experience under their belts and you can look at actual accomplishments instead, and (b) even for candidates who are right out of school with little work experience (which will not be all of them), this is still an excessive focus on academics, particularly for an admin role.

GPA and other test scores are a horribly inaccurate gauge for how someone will do in a job. Lots of people with high test scores end up doing mediocre work, and lots of people with middling test scores end up excelling professionally. Raw “intelligence” or “knowledge” doesn’t always correlate with achievement … plus, it’s pretty well established that tests that purport to measure intelligence often correlate with demographic and socioeconomic background more than anything else.

And going all the way back to high school, not just college, amplifies how weird this is. Just as college tests stop being relevant once you’re in the work world, high school tests stop being relevant once you’re in college (or otherwise out of high school).

You almost have to wonder if this is an attempt to screen out older workers, or at least signal that that’s not who’s envisioned for this job.

You may also like:
{ 425 comments }

{ 425 comments… read them below }

  1. Falling Diphthong*

    I actually know my SAT score–it’s logged in there along with the location of Goldbug in Cars and Trucks and Things That Go as information my brain apparently believes is crucial to remember.

    But I don’t know how I would go about proving that those numbers are true, rather than ones I just now made up based on what I thought the system wanted.

    1. FricketyFrack*

      I only remember my ACT score 23-ish years later because it was high enough to be in the running for some award so they made me stand up in front of everyone at an assembly (my literal nightmare) and I started getting letters from MIT and Stanford and stuff, which I found hilarious because I think my GPA was 2.9 at that point. I just test really well.

      Anyway, none of that has really been relevant to my career. They weren’t paying me to do homework in high school, so I’m a lot more motivated these days.

      1. Saraquill*

        My high school boyfriend had mediocre grades but a near perfect SAT score. This helped him get into a college he chose purely for prestige value. Once there, he continued to be a mediocre student.

        1. FricketyFrack*

          Dang, I barely got in to the state school at that point. They waited for first semester grades to come out my senior year before they accepted me. I kind of wish they hadn’t, tbh. I would’ve been far better off if I’d worked for a few years before going to college. Also, I should’ve done my prereqs at a community college.

        3. ferrina*

          I’m on Team Mediocre Grades, Great Test Scores. In my case it’s an ADHD symptom- when my schoolwork isn’t challenging enough, my brain logs it into “not important” without consulting me. Basically, my brain would go “I already know this, and I have better things to do with my precious time.”

          In a twist of irony, that is also how everyone at my company treats Learning & Development now (and plenty of them were great students in high school/college). They take their work product seriously, but not the L&D. Maybe I was just ahead of my time?

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        One of my nieces had a perfect SAT score, which she parlayed into SAT tutoring in NYC when in college. So there exist jobs where it’s relevant and can be parlayed into good pay. Just, a very very narrow subset of jobs and geographic locations.

        1. Anon of the anon*

          I know someone who had a relative parlay this into a successful, if illegal, career taking standardized tests for others.

        2. Arrietty*

          I searched online and found various discussions of the exact questions, one of which is how you ranked in your high school maths class. For anyone who was at a British high school, that information literally doesn’t exist. Our exams are national and you don’t get told how you rank compared with anyone, let alone your class. What a bizarre question.

          Also, amusingly the CEO pops up on reddit ever so often and defends himself in the comments of critical posts, which I find hilarious. How can he possibly have time to trawl the Internet looking for people to argue with? Surely his time is taken up by interviewing every single candidate for a job at the company and grilling them about their hobbies as a teenager?

          1. amoeba*

            Ha, yeah. I’d actually guess this is the case in most countries? Like, we in Germany got graded, of course, but it wasn’t on any kind of curve or anything – if everybody was great, everybody got an A (or a 1, rather), if everybody did terribly, there were only Cs and Ds. I mean, that wasn’t very frequent because basically it meant the teacher/professor had made an exam that was too easy or too hard, but still possible. Also, definitely no ranking provided, ever!

            1. MK*

              Ι never understood the point of grading on a curve. What does it matter how well you did compared to other in the class?

              1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                There are situations where it makes sense, but not many. It can be used to correct for a test that was much more difficult than expected, for instance. If nobody in the class gets more than 60%, then 60% should be an A on that test.

              2. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

                It can be relevant as a measure of how well the professor is teaching, and a way for a less-than-great prof to avoid complaints.

                My spouse (a professor) knows that if almost everyone misses the same question on an exam, the odds are that they did a bad job teaching it. They don’t grade on a curve, but they will throw out questions like that so it doesn’t hurt the students, then reteach the material and put it on the next exam.

                1. Carol the happy*

                  A college roommate has this incredible memory, and used to be hounded by the “Toot Squad” to take tests for them. The “Toots” were people being tutored in subjects they couldn’t spell, explain, or possibly in a million years, pass- but whose parents got them into school by helicopter wind blowing them toward adulthood….

              3. JustaTech*

                Because some times the teacher/professor writes a bad exam.

                My senior year of high school, my calculus final exam ended up being a lot harder/more confusing than the teacher intended. Normally she would have just graded on a curve. But two people did really well, indicating that maybe it wasn’t actually the exam.
                So she asked the two people who did really well if they would be OK with grading on a curve, or did we want to stick with our grade, so then everyone else would have to come in on a Saturday to take a make-up exam.
                She asked this question *in front of the other students*.
                “If you grade on a curve do I still pass?”
                “Yes, of course.”
                “Then I’m completely fine with it!”
                As all my classmates stare daggers at me!
                (Unlike everyone else, I kept working on the exam while I waited in line to ask questions, so I effectively had more time for the exam than everyone else.)

                This was, of course, a terrible way to do this. The teacher should have just excluded our two grades and curved the rest. She sure as anything shouldn’t have outed me to the rest of the class, and put me in the position of possibly making everyone come in on the weekend.

          2. londonedit*

            Yep…I can tell you that I got a B in GCSE Maths, but I doubt many Americans would understand what that means, let alone an automated application system. And GCSE grades aren’t even letters anymore, they’re numbers.

            1. Chas*

              I could tell people I was top of my class because I was the only one in my year who got an A* in GCSE maths… but that would probably tell you more about how good my high school was than how good *I* was.

          3. ScruffyInternHerder*

            USA based high school here, and at least in my state? Wasn’t a thing either (knowing your numeric rank in math…say WHAT?!). I know how I ranked overall based on happenstance of rank that was high enough to be noted in graduation materials published by our school, but anyone below me….may or may not remember the rank listed on our report cards. But within a single subject? Nah.

            And in university? Your rank in high school did not matter, because you were surrounded by your like-ranked peers, not an entire class based on location of your school.

            1. a clockwork lemon*

              The only thing I can tell anyone about my grades from high school is that I know for a fact I scored a 69.475 on my AP physics final senior year. I remember this because I had to actively lobby my teacher to round it up to a 70 so I could pass the class and graduate lol.

          4. Bear in the Sky*

            Even as an American high school student, I never knew how I ranked compared to the rest of my class. All I know is that I wasn’t valedictorian or salutatorian at graduation, so I wasn’t first or second. Even the top two students wouldn’t have known how they ranked in any specific subject, just that they had the highest cumulative grade point average by the end of senior year.

      3. Princess Sparklepony*

        I can’t remember my scores. But there was a place I applied for a job that was about 5-10 years out of college and the interviewer wanted to know SAT scores. It turns out he was on some sort of board or somehow connected to the SATs and he decided they were able to determine your future. I couldn’t remember my scores and I did not get the job. I still think it was a bullet dodged.

    2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      The SAT scoring system has also changed multiple times over the years, which is another way they can use this to get at someone’s age.

      2. KaciHall*

        didn’t it change from 1600 to 2400 back to 1600?

        I only remember mine was 1480 was because I got 740 on both and I got so much teasing for doing as ‘bad’ on math as I did on language/ English/ whatever the other section was called in 2004. (I am absolutely a numbers person.)

        My mother remembers my ACT score but only because when the results when to my school in the middle of the summer, my counselor came to the ice cream store I worked at to tell me because she was so impressed. That number does not stick on my head.

        My ability to do really well on tests in high school has not translated well at all to being outstanding at any of my jobs. Or even on college, for that matter.

        1. Clisby*

          It didn’t really change from 1600 to 2400 and back again – the 1600 was for math and verbal (800 each.) Then they added an essay portion that was worth another 800, but even from the start a lot of colleges/universities didn’t pay any attention to the essay part. As far as I know, the essay part was eliminated a few years ago.

            1. MassMatt*

              I don’t see how it would be possible to score the thousands of essays involved. Many people take the SAT’s multiple times!

              This boss sounds like someone who peaked in high school.

          2. Morning Glory*

            When I took it in 2007, there was reading, writing, math, and the essay. Reading, writing, and math were worth 800 each and the essay was graded on a score of 1-5.

          3. Lisa Simpson*

            Prior to them adding the essay section, a lot of competitive colleges required the SATII-writing in addition to the regular SAT. (I graduated HS in 2003 for reference.) Which was exactly the same as the essay section they added and then removed.

          4. Worldwalker*

            To make things even more complicated, they changed the scoring of the math/verbal section so pre-essay and post-essay values aren’t directly comparable. Which makes the numbers mean even less.

        2. Frank Doyle*

          Are you me?? I got 740/740 the first time I took them and was frustrated (also a math gal) and when I took them again I got 740/800 but the 740 was the math again!! I was SO MAD, I had time to look that test over twice again and I DID and I *know* I didn’t screw anything up!! So frustrated. Like, a less-than-perfect score in verbal would have been fine, some of that is subjective, but the answers on the math portion are right or wrong! And mine were right!!

          And like many others, I’m also very frustrated that being really good at taking multiple-choice exams has not led me to a life of wealth and success.

          1. Anonononono*

            I missed 20 points in the math section, so as a joke my dad asked if there were any concepts I needed help understanding.

            …I think it was a joke.

          2. Paint N Drip*

            Dude if I could build my success on multiple-choice exams, I’d be a superstar! So many of the school concepts and skills I excelled in don’t translate into ‘the real world’ unfortunately for me

        3. Worldwalker*

          Me either.

          I got the exact same SAT math score as my husband. He can do esoteric sorts of calculus and understands what a tensor is. I crash and burn when I’m faced with anything more complicated than trigonometry.

          But yup, I test well.

    3. E*

      I only remember mine because I missed a full scholarship to a fancy private university by 40 points. But I couldn’t tell you anything else like GPA or class rank. It hasn’t been important since getting accepted into college.

    4. Antilles*

      But I don’t know how I would go about proving that those numbers are true, rather than ones I just now made up based on what I thought the system wanted.
      I was curious so I checked a little bit: The SAT only agrees to maintain archives for 10 years after the exam. Currently their records do go back a bit further to 2005, but they don’t promise that.
      Honestly, the way it reads to me is that whenever they change records retention systems, they’re only going to transfer over recent records and aren’t going to spend time/effort transferring over anything beyond the promised “within 10 years”.

      1. GammaGirl1908*

        I frankly can see the logic of that. If after 10 years, you haven’t done what needs doing with those scores, there is no point in them doing the work to keep them on file. You probably need to re-take the test if you took 11 years off after high school and are just now applying to college such that you even need aptitude tests.

        1. A Significant Tree*

          I narrowly missed having to retake the GREs after I took a couple of breaks during grad school and wanted to return to complete my PhD. I don’t recall if that was the university’s rule or GREs aren’t on file past that number of years but either way, those scores go stale.

          I don’t think the example in the letter is useful as an application process. Too little useful or verifiable data, too large an opportunity for bias.

          1. JustaTech*

            I was Not Pleased that I had to re-take the GRE because too long had passed between when I took it in undergrad and my third round of grad school applications.
            Not only was it expensive, but I had to take a day off work and then was treated like a criminal (repeated wanted and told to pull up my pant legs and push up my sleeves, and then also that I could not take off my sweater).

            I’ve given the College Board (company that administers the SAT and GRE) entirely too much of my time and money.

        2. Antilles*

          Oh sure, it makes perfect business sense on their end. I’m guessing the number of people who even want their SAT score 5 years afterwards are very very few – grad schools want the GRE and undergrad applications are going to want new scores, never mind a decade plus afterwards.
          But it does highlight just how bizarre it is for this company to care about these standardized scores years later.

      2. Grenelda Thurber*

        Finally! Something useful comes from my being a packrat! I still have the results of my ACT, SAT, and GRE tests, on paper. Now, if I only needed standardized test scores from the 1980’s everything would be perfect.

        1. Can't Sit Still*

          I kept my old scores, too, and finally used them to re-enter college and finish my degree 20+ years later. I’m really not sure why they accepted such old scores, but I was happy they did! Those ancient AP test scores actually helped me automatically skip several classes, too.

      3. Wendy Darling*

        As someone who took the SAT in the late 90s, I would be up a creek.

        That said, it’s been more than 20 years since I graduated high school and I stand by absolutely nothing I did in that time period. My performance on a standardized test and my grades in school when I was 16-17 years old do not reflect my abilities as a 40some year old adult professional. If the SAT tells you anything about me at all (which it does not, other than that I could afford a test prep course and am decent at the kinds of problems the test set in the 90s), that information is 20+ years out of date.

      4. Banana Pyjamas*

        So ACT does keep older scores, but you have to pay $50 to have them retrieved from archives and there’s a waiting period.

        1. Worldwalker*

          I’m envisioning something involving armored archivists descending into a basement with strange scraping noises, boxes of old test results, and occasionally something with tentacles, to get your score.

          1. Kathy (not Marian) the Librarian*

            Read that to my little sister! It was her favorite book.

            Never took the SAT so no way to know that score.

    6. samwise*

      If you took the SAT back when dinosaurs roamed the earth (late 1970s), the SAT score isn’t even on the same scale.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I took it in the 90s and the scale has changed multiple times between then and now. It might be back to the same rough scale we used then, unless it’s changed again since last time I paid attention which is very possible.

        The college I went to no longer even considers SAT or ACT scores for admissions.

      2. Worldwalker*

        That would be me. Now I feel old.

        Two guys in my class of ~600 got perfect scores. I don’t know what happened to one of them, but I bumped into the other, years later, when he was a grad student at MIT. Because you had to be the kind of person who winds up doing your PhD work at MIT to get a 1600 back then.

        But yeah, they’ve changed the scale repeatedly, changed the questions repeatedly, and basically the only thing any given SAT score is comparable to is other scores from the same year.

      3. I Have RBF*

        This.

        It was 1978, and I only remember that my score was like 1370 (combined), and I did better on English than math.

    7. UncleFrank*

      I remember my SAT score because it was the same as my house number, which I thought was a funny coincidence at the time. And of course I still remember the house my family lived in for like 15 years. But this knowledge has never been useful!!

    8. Laura*

      My SAT (and PSAT) score was helpful in getting me into college and getting a very nice scholarship but other than that has had no relevance in my professional life.

      (I do know my score because I was really fixated on getting a 1500 or higher; I got a perfect verbal so the only way to get better was to improve my math. I spent months studying and practicing only for the math portion, got another perfect verbal and an even lower math score at which point I gave it up. Naturally since I was so skilled with verbal, I picked a math-heavy degree and field to go into)

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I did the same thing and this is also the only reason I remember my scores!

        20+ years later I’m a software developer with dyscalculia.

    9. RIP Pillowfort*

      I only remember my SAT score because I could only afford to take it once and it was so bad compared to my HS and College GPA. I still managed to get into college because I had scholarships, and I wanted to go to a local school which isn’t competitive. I even graduated early with honors.

      I wouldn’t want to voluntarily share that score with any employer but woo do I remember how bad I whiffed it.

    11. LaurCha*

      I remember my ACT and SAT scores, but I graduated high school in 1984 and the scoring systems have changed. I have no idea if the score I received then would be good, bad, or indifferent in the current systems.

      This whole thing is ridiculous.

    12. Tradd*

      I got a 23 on my ACT. I didn’t need to take the SAT back in the mid-80s. My score was high enough that I got early admission to the state school that was my first choice. I also remember my high school (3.6 out of 4.0) and college (3.2 out of 4.0) GPAs. I can also still remember my college ID number!

    13. a trans person*

      I have a perfect SAT score (for when I took it), and I could even prove it (using a written mention of it, not the formal score report)… but it would have my deadname. And after I received that perfect score, I read a lot of critiques of standardized testing and now, uh, I generally oppose them, let’s say.

      Which is all to say that I might be the person these people wish they could find. And their process guarantees I’ll never want to work for them.

    14. Greg*

      While I would not generally recommend misrepresenting yourself on job applications, my advice to applicants for this job would just be to lie your ass off about high school. Claim you were valedictorian, that you won all kinds of prestigious awards, etc. If they actually go through the effort of asking you to provide documentation, well, that’s an even bigger red flag about the organization than asking in the first place. Most likely, though, this is just box checking for someone in HR

  2. techie*

    I recently had a company that reached out about an open role asking me about my college GPA. I graduated almost 10 years ago; I don’t really remember and don’t know why it matters. It wasn’t nearly as insane as this, but I did find it very strange. (I was a good student and would have had at least a 3.5, but it seems completely irrelevant to my current work in marketing…especially since that’s not what my degree is in.)

    1. Seen Too Much*

      I graduated college in the 80s. I don’t think my degree should be a thought at this point. I’ve been working longer than I have been in school.

    2. Nonanon*

      I had one asking for transcripts; I don’t keep them lying around and have had my student account since deactivated. Didn’t wind up applying for other reasons, but yeah, now it’s registering a red flag.

      1. Antilles*

        Asking about college transcripts isn’t necessarily a red flag. A lot of companies have a standardized application process, online form, etc – so the request for college details is just a standard because it’s sometimes relevant (e.g., for people applying for their first professional job).

        1. metadata minion*

          I do think it’s at least a yellow flag that they haven’t realized that this is making a lot of unnecessary and in some cases impossible work for applicants, and/or that they’re primarily looking for people right out of college.

          1. Overit*

            I was recruited for a job. Recruiter strongly implied I wss the #1 candidate. I had to supply an official transcript from both undergraduate and graduate for a job requiring a minimum of ten years of experience. I could not complete the app without the transcripts.
            Cost me $60.
            I got an auto rejection 30 seconds after submitting my app. Never heard from the recruiter again.

            2. BigLawEx*

              Ooof! I don’t work in higher education, but can we assume confirmation of degree and transcripts are two different things/documents? I could see doing this at the END of a process – like a background check – but at the beginning? Also, ageism.

          2. samwise*

            Or looking to see that you actually earned the degree you said you earned. People do lie about it.

            It’s still a pain in the tucus to have to order the transcripts, especially if you went to more than one college/university.

            1. Ontariariario*

              I work at places that ask for confirmation of a degree even years later, and I think that’s very reasonable if it’s technical knowledge.

              Thankfully my university has a policy where they will send transcripts directly to any employer who needs it, and it’s direct so that grades can’t be modified. They do this for free (well, it’s included in the tuition fees), whenever students request it. They switched to this policy a few years ago and I really like it!

            2. sparkle emoji*

              If it really is important to have a degree, there are 3rd party companies that will do educational verifications on the employers dime, but that would put the burden on them.

              1. MigraineMonth*

                Exactly. It shouldn’t be on the applicant to verify their own details during the application phase. Particularly since it’s going to put a higher burden on older applicants and ones who got their educations in a different country.

            3. I Have RBF*

              Degree verification is not transcripts. IIRC, you can get your school to verify your degree without sending transcripts.

        2. Sloanicota*

          Haaaate when a job asks for college transcripts and will self-select out of applying most of the time I encounter it. I don’t have these on hand so it’s a big task to get something I don’t know why they would need. I’m over a decade out of college at this point and have a lot more relevant experience we could discuss.

          1. I Have RBF*

            Haaaate when a job asks for college transcripts and will self-select out of applying most of the time I encounter it.

            Ditto. Plus wanting high school academics as well? Nope!

            Yes, IMO, it’s a de-facto method for discrimination on basis of age, because older people don’t keep those kinds of records.

        3. I Have RBF*

          I still think that asking for college transcripts for anything but an entry level pre-licensed professional position is a big red flag. Why? Because transcripts have dates, and can be used to discriminate by age.

          The sheer amount of crap asked by the place for an admin position would have had me nope out when I was doing admin work. As in, I would have answered those questions quite hostilely, and criticized them for an unhealthy fixation on high school academics, and I graduated high school early with a 3.x GPA.

      2. GammaGirl1908*

        Agree that asking for transcripts is not in itself a red flag under certain circumstances. I actually ordered a few sealed transcripts from my undergrad institution and have them in my file cabinet with other papers.

        I belong to an organization that requires college completion as part of its membership intake, and know of several similar organizations. You have to provide a transcript, a letter from the institution, or similar. They may be very specific and narrow, but there are a few situations where that could come up.

      3. Smithy*

        I don’t know if this is still part of US government federal jobs – but I remember at one time seeing something like a requirement for scans of degrees and transcripts received. However, there was a note that for “degrees not written in English, a notarized translation is needed” – something like that. I had a set of transcripts all in English and conferred my degree, however one of the degrees itself was entirely written in Latin. The concept of figuring out if that needed to be formally translated was enough for me to decide I didn’t need to complete the application.

        I do feel that similar to other job application tests, some of these very rigid requirements do partially serve that status of seeing who’s willing to go through with the whole process. Not that those reasons alone necessarily bring out the best candidates, but in the grand scope of job application tests I always think of that.

        1. Panhandlerann*

          My daughter’s college diploma is in Latin and did have to be translated when she applied (and got) a job overseas. The Registrar’s Office at her college supplied the translation upon request. (They were obviously used to requests a translation.)

          1. BigLawEx*

            ??? Mine is in Latin. Tons of east coast schools do this. Honestly, this never crossed my mind as *a thing.* Mmmm. Okay.

            1. BigLawEx*

              Okay, I had to google it. My college provides an online link to a PDF document that translates the diploma. I assume it hasn’t ever changed in 100+ years….

          2. Goats and ghosts*

            oooh, I got hit by that once. My UK employer required diplomas in non-English languages to be translated by the embassy of wherever you went to uni; when I pointed out that the US embassy would in fact not be able to provide a certified translation of a diploma *in Latin*, they straight-faced suggested I try the Vatican.

            I ended up handing them one of my official transcripts and saying the words “this is a diploma”.

        2. GammaGirl1908*

          It was still a requirement when I became a fed in 2005. I assume they request a transcript if your education is the main thing that qualifies you for the job. Many fed jobs say things in the requirements like “bachelor’s degree or 5 years of related work experience,” or “master’s degree in economics, business, or related field.” They want proof.

        3. cookie monster*

          Yes, US federal jobs still want your GPA, no matter when you graduated.

          No, I don’t know why.

          1. Freya*

            Then you get into the different GPA scales that different countries use – I’m Australian, and at the majority of Australian universities (but not all) your GPA can be as high as 7 if you have 100% high distinctions. We do not use them below university level, and it’s also calculated differently to other countries.

      4. Seashell*

        I went to college before email was commonly used and before I had ever seen the internet, so I never had any sort of student account. When I last needed a transcript (a long time ago), I called the school. I would think there’s an even easier option these days.

        1. Wayward Sun*

          Last time I needed one I could order it online, but it wasn’t from the school itself — they’d farmed that out to another service.

      5. LCH*

        i have an unofficial copy of my undergraduate transcript saved digitally because i needed it for graduate school and i’ve been saving stuff ever since then. but i wouldn’t want to go through the process of having an official copy sent over to someone at this point in life.

    3. pandop*

      I applied for another job at the university I currently work at, which also happens to be the institution that awarded my MA (I started working part time while studying, and just stuck around, it’s not an uncommon story around here).

      This other department, not only demanded my passport for proof of right to work in the UK, but my GCSE, A-Level, and degree certificates. I mean, at this point, as I have been working here over a decade, and have an MA from here, can we just not take it as read that I have the requisite 5 GCSEs grades A-C?

      1. Goats and ghosts*

        I’m an American with a PhD from a UK university, and the number of UK jobs that *require* PhDs and years of relevant experience but yet still ask me for my GCSE grades (which I don’t have! I went to high school in the US!) is astonishing.

        1. londonedit*

          Wow…I’ve never even been asked to show my degree certificate, let alone GCSEs and A levels! Publishing seems to take these things on face value. I still have vague mentions of my GCSEs and A levels on my CV (like ’10 GCSEs at A*-B grade’) but seeing as I’ve been working for 25 years now I’m even considering taking that off, because who actually cares what I got in my GCSEs at this point?

    4. Miss Chanandler Bong*

      Mine is on mine. But I got my first degree eight years ago and my second one last year. My first degree was a 3.8 and my second was a 4.0; I was top of the class on my second degree.

      I have it on there because it was an impressive achievement that makes me stand out, not because employers need this information for every single candidate.

    5. Pointy's in the North Tower*

      I just did a job application that asked for a copy of my high school diploma. I finished my Master’s degree 17 years ago. I used my bachelor’s (since it happened to be handy). I’ve no clue where my high school diploma is and no clue what my GPA in grad school was and honestly don’t care at this point. (My current job isn’t related to either of my degrees. The job application was for a second job, also not related to my degrees.)

      US age discrimination laws apply to me now. (Thanks to Alison for the suggestion on removing graduation years from my resume!) How about you use that resume I provided to see if you want to do a phone screen? It straight up tells you where I’ve been employed for the last 15 years.

  3. NotDeadLanguage*

    > How did you perform in your native language in high school?

    How about someone who went to a language immersion program or attended high school in a foreign country? This question is definitely bad even after replacing “high school” with “post secondary school”.

    1. The Prettiest Curse*

      One difficult part of applying for jobs in the US as a British person was that I’ve never had a GPA because our education systems are totally different. I think I ended up asking my American husband what a good GPA would be and entering that number.

      If the application doesn’t give you space to explain that you have different qualifications due to where you grew up – well, it’s kind of an indicator that they may not want to hire you based on national origin, which is (supposedly) illegal.

      1. Bethany*

        I love the practicality of your solution and it made me laugh! That’s a good point about discrimination, too.

      2. Disappointed Australien*

        Absolutely this. “you’re not from around these parts”

        Trying to explain the school system I came through even to someone from the same country 30 years later is hard enough, doing that for someone from a different country with a school system that works very differently would take a long time. Sure, I could give them my actual marks as percentages and let them guess, but good luck turning “Mathematics With Statistics: 87%” into whatever the American system wants, let alone making them understand that that mark put me in the top 0.5% of the country thanks to the archaic scaling system in use at the time.

        We can just ignore my post-grad qualifications, industry experience and career because high school matters more.

        1. Freya*

          Oh man, trying to explain modern ATARs (out of 100) and how they relate to the TER (out of 90) that I got when I graduated high school in the 90s, and the scaling system and how that affected which subjects you chose if you wanted to get into a highly selective degree! That and looking up the degree you wanted to get into, seeing what the normal academic requirements were, and skating in at that level or a bit above being a normal thing to do…

        2. Sharpie*

          British GCSEs and A-levels don’t even give you the marks, you get a letter grade or (more recently) a number from 1-9 and that’s it. Also we don’t, and never have, ever scored on a bell curve. Everyone is marked against the rubric and given an absolute score. The day I got 73 on a university essay was a highlight of my university career (I never finished my degree) because that high a mark, if I’d been consistent, would have earned me a First.

          The American bell curve things always weirds me out. Why mark against your peers and not mark everyone against an absolute ‘out of a hundred’ or whatever number, which gives a much better idea of how you actually do?!

      3. Divyesh*

        The opposite, of course, totally applies to. Every job I’ve applied for in the UK, I’ve slapped a 2:1 as my grade because the calculation of Canadian degree to UK is totally bonkers (and I say this as someone in higher ed).

        The native language is incredibly funny too: English is different between different countries!

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      Good point. My nephew is attending a Gaelscoil (a school that teaches through Irish). He’s currently in the equivalent of 1st or 2nd grade but if he goes on to a secondary Gaelscoil, then…would his “native language” be English as his first language and the language he speaks at home or Irish as the language he is educated through and actually the country’s first language according to the constitution?

      I’m assuming English, but…it’s not simple at all. And that’s less of a question than many of my immigrant students, some of whom don’t have the option of studying their native language at all.

      1. LizardOfOz*

        As a native bilingual who did most of his education in a minority language (up to midway through university), I’d personally count both English and Irish as native languages in your nephew’s case.

      2. bamcheeks*

        My partner is a language teacher and there’s a strong campaign against people using “native language” or “native fluency” because — it’s not that simple!

        1. Paint N Drip*

          Agreed. Say your schooling was in your native language so they’re asking about your grasp on your native language skills – how is that relevant to a job that is (presumably) conducted in English? Just nonsense

    3. Fíriel*

      At least in Canada, immersion students take more core classes than single-language students (i.e., they take both English and French language arts). So I’d still put English as my native language class despite having attended school in French.

      1. Ontariariario*

        Same, I did my schooling almost completely in french, from kindergarden to OACs, yet spoke english at home and everywhere else.

    4. Magpie*

      My kids’ native language is English but they attend a French immersion school. All students take English class for an hour a day so they learn the basics of English grammar and how to read and write in English. That’s probably what they’re looking for in this question since I think this is a pretty common setup in language immersion programs.

    5. Lily Rowan*

      That one feels like a way to be more fair than asking “how did you perform in English class,” which I’m sure was the original version. How did you do in math, how did you do in English.

    6. Future*

      What does the question even mean for someone whose schooling was in their native language? Like, does it mean did I, a native English speaker, do well in English class? Is it asking about my writing ability? My ability to analyse literature? Or is it asking if I did okay in the classes that were taught through my native language compared to another language? It’s a really confusing question.

  4. Ex-Prof*

    Sounds like whoever came up with those questions has a chip on their shoulder about higher education. Perhaps they were successful without higher ed themselves, but still harbor feelings of resentment or inadequacy.

    1. Merry*

      sounds more like they were the class salutatorian and have a chip on their shoulder that they tried so much harder than the rest of their class and still didn’t even get valedictorian

      1. Tiny Soprano*

        Or they were dux, and like a friend of mine who peaked in high school, don’t want anyone else to forget it. Love to rub it in that they were so successful… in high school.

  5. Isashani*

    this looks like a parody of an inefficient way to make a hiring process objective, or possibly an automated way to sort through 10k applications for a single job opening (but in this case, allowing leeway for international systems and rankings makes it harder).

    if the LW hadn’t mentioned that highschool was a long time ago for them, I would have assumed it to be an entry level (like zero post-college experience, and possibly no college needed) job.

    1. MsM*

      It might be an entry level job, and OP’s either trying to change fields or ignoring the hint they’re overqualified.

      1. LW*

        I’m in my early 30s. It’s not an entry level position, it was a mid-level technical position. But I’ll try to take the hint next time ;)

        1. Another Kristin*

          This is fucking bonkers, then. The only valid reason to ask for grades in a job application is in an entry-level job where candidates don’t have much job experience, so if they did well at school you at least know if they’re able to apply themselves to something. Judging candidates by their high school grades when they have an entire RECORD OF WORK ACCOMPLISHMENTS to go by it just very stupid!

          2. I Have RBF*

            I never even mention my high school stuff on my resume. I never finished college, but have worked in highly technical fields. I have never been willing to provide high school anything for anything past my first job while I was in college.

            This whole thing seems like a test of how desperate you are for a job, or how young you are. It sounds like a crappy workplace to fixate on irrelevance like that.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        No, providing a high school transcript is definitely One Weird Trick a company I used to work for used to weed out older applicants. (I wasn’t in recruiting, but I do know someone in their early sixties who told me she was in the process of applying but got turned off by the question.)

        I also wouldn’t put it past that company to be using it as a form of compliance testing; after all, if someone pushes back about supplying a high school transcript from 20 years earlier, they might also push back about regularly working 55 hour weeks.

      3. Alanna*

        I’m pretty sure I know what company this is, as I also applied and had to try to remember what I did in high school and college! If I’m correct that it’s the same company, they have a notorious hiring process, wherein this question is one of many you have to answer in your written interview. They give you a few weeks to do this but it’s a big ask. Mine was about 11 pages long! It’s a tech company.

    2. Tangurena*

      There is an abusive interviewing fad called “Top Grading” which is weirdly obsessed with GPA from decades ago. You are expected to know your GPA from both high school & university.

  6. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    I like how they focus on math scores. Honey, I’ve been an admin, trust me, math wasn’t really needed. That’s why there are calculators. Not putting down admins — they are very very necessary. But I was never asked to solve a quadratic equation or find the hypotenuese of a triangle when I was one.

    Language skills, very much yes. But you can suss those out without knowing their SAT scores.

    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      In full disclosure, as a paralegal I was once handed 3 checks of identical amounts. The attorney asked me to figure out the firm’s 1/3 share. I was reaching for the calculator when it hit me — 3 checks, same amount, 1/3 = 1 check.

      Yes my language score was waaaaaay higher than my math score on every standarized test.

      1. AttorneyNoLikeMaths*

        Just remember: It was the attorney who asked you what 1/3 of 3 identical items was. So you should not feel bad, especially when realizing it right away!

      2. SarahKay*

        I was a maths student at university and because we did what my Mum’s infant class (kindergarten) referred to as ‘really hard sums’ we all used calculators all the time.
        The day I caught myself inputting 2+6 was the day I realised I seriously needed to brush up my mental arithmetic.

        1. Jamoche*

          I tell people I minored in math, not arithmetic. Numbers are slippery things, boolean logic and calculus behave themselves.

        2. ferrina*

          I find that score keeping for games like canasta, bridge and dutch blitz really helps with this. You’re constantly doing quick arithmetic and it is part of an enjoyable experience (the game). I did this as a kid, and now my own kid is of the age where he is now the official score keeper. His arithmetic skills are quite sharp for his age.

    2. Goldenrod*

      “Honey, I’ve been an admin, trust me, math wasn’t really needed. That’s why there are calculators”

      ha ha! Not to mention Excel. Even people who work with budgets all day don’t really do “math” they just use spreadsheets. It’s more about logic and organization than math.

      The only time I use math is my everyday life is tipping in restaurants, and….baking!

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        I got an A in logic in college and am very organized. Math, not so much. I don’t even use it for tipping in restaurants anymore, they helpfully print out 14, 20 and 25% on the credit slip. I just pick 20 or 25% and write it down.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          I took Symbolic Logic in college, and it was so fun! (It met the university’s math requirements.)

          2. Elitist Semicolon*

            I did too, and it’s given me a lifetime of petty irritation when I see “not all those who wander are lost” incorrectly rendered as “all those who wander are not lost.”

            1. Frieda*

              Be still my heart. Also one of my bigger pet peeves.

              Like “the exception that proves the rule” doesn’t *show that the rule is right, because that’s not how exceptions work* it’s the exception that proves = proofs, or tests the rule. For the love of God, give me someone who knows how counterexamples work.

              1. Charlotte Lucas*

                Also one of the older definitions of the word “proof,” which is also used in baking, when you proof yeast.

          3. Clisby*

            I did, too! Years later, I recommended it to my college-age son and he loved it. Weirdly (to me, at least), apparently many, many students found it incredibly difficult.

          4. Artemesia*

            I used it as one of the two languages required for the PhD. Symbolic logic at a certain level would count — so I took a couple of classes in logic and met the requirement. My other language was German which I had been fluent in as a teen and I was able to pass that exam without studying — I figured if I bombed it, I would study and then take it again.

          5. ferrina*

            Yes! Loved that class! I think that some kind of formal logic class should be a requirement for high school- that’s one of the most helpful classes I’ve taken.

        2. Square Root of Minus One*

          Just FYI: unlike tax, this is not a legal mention and some restaurants lie. I’ve seen photos on various social media before.
          One that’s easily found on Google is:
          Bill 49.42
          18% 10.89 (in reality just over 22%)
          20% 12.10 (in reality almost 25%)
          25% 15.13 (in reality over 30%)

          1. Sharpie*

            25% (a quarter) of 49.42 is 12.355. Just divide by four.

            For 20%, divide by five – so 9.884.

            And if in Britain, where you tip 10% but only for really good service because wait staff over here don’t need the tips to be able to pay theirs bills, you’d add 4.9 percent, probability rounded up to 5, so a fiver or ‘keep the change’ (actual pretty common if paying by cash which is disappearing fast).

    3. Antilles*

      Also, even if you were concerned about someone’s math skills, the way to check that is NOT asking about their math scores. The way that math is taught and tested in schools (memorization, hand calculations, small calculators, no reference materials) is dramatically different than the way you’d use it at work (Excel spreadsheets, budget software, etc).

    4. Dinwar*

      I’m a project manager and the math isn’t high-school level. The application can be tricky, of course, but realistically someone with a good understanding of fourth grade math can do the math I do.

      Even as a scientist, someone with a good understanding of trig can do 99.9% of the math I’ve ever done professional. And yeah, you ALWAYS have a calculator. Knowing how to set up the equations is far more critical than actually running them.

      1. PostalMixup*

        Scientist here. My bachelor’s degree required math through Calculus 3. I think I’ve taken a derivative once in my professional career; everything else I do is algebra. I’m slightly bitter about it because Calc 3 was brutal.

        1. Dinwar*

          I lucked out–I’m a rock jock (geologist/paleontologist), so I skipped a bunch of math requirements and replaced them with a bunch of biology requirements. That said, some of the math we used in school was brutal. I will never for the life of me understand why anyone uses angstroms, and visualizing n-dimensional clouds gave me migraines.

          The most complicated math I’ve done professionally was literally “At angle A, with soil depth X, will a well drilled Y feet from the building extend under the building?” Basic triangles, in other words–literally the stuff my wife was teaching her highschool class that week. Which she used to thoroughly shut down the whole “When will we use this?” nonsense!

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Angstrom is a unit of length that makes sense if you are working at the atomic or molecular scale (or light waves? Probably? Especially how light interacts with molecules), just like Kelvin is a unit of temperature that makes sense if you are working on a cosmic scale. Outside of those contexts, it’s not particularly helpful.

            1. linger*

              Visible light wavelengths are of the order of hundreds of nanometres (ca. 300nm-800nm), or thousands of angstroms (ca. 3000Å-8000Å). So angstroms are slightly more convenient when citing wavelengths or (sub)atomic distances to an accuracy of 0.1nm (because then you don’t need a decimal point); but that’s not something many people need to do often.

            2. Dinwar*

              I was working with x-ray defractometry, so a combination of light (x-rays) and atomic distances (the crystals we were working with).

              The problem was that SOME of the data were in angstroms, and some were in metric units. Since angstroms are just 0.1 nanometers, I found that the easiest thing to do was to convert everything to nanometers and then get started. So it was literally just a wasted extra step that was nothing but tedious busy-work.

              Turned out to be a useful conceptual lesson later in life, though. I was dealing with waste management (TSCA and CERCLA), and everyone had their own units. First thing I did was set up my Excel table to automatically convert everything to parts per million. Made my life MUCH easier, and several people stole the idea (and my spreadsheet).

          2. Six Feldspar*

            Geologist solidarity! I was already planning to study it when I started uni but the minimal maths was a big draw… I’m pretty sure I’ve done more maths as part of my knitting !

        2. Wendy Darling*

          I’m a software developer/data engineer (with a completely unrelated education and degree) and I could never pass intro calculus because I had undiagnosed dyscalculia that everyone insisted was just me not being sufficiently careful. The only math I actually need for my work is first year algebra.

          There are fields in computing and software development where you need a ton of math, but they’re actually a minority, and ironically a lot of them are subfields where a LOT of the people have non-computer science backgrounds (e.g. data science and machine learning have a TON of people with PhDs in stuff like economics, physics, statistics, and applied math, signals processing is basically all math and is full of electrical engineers, etc).

          I’m an ex-academic from a social science and managed to cover all my math requirements with logical reasoning and stats-for-social-scientists courses.

        3. fhqwhgads*

          The closest I’ve ever come to using calculus in real life involved determining how long it would take to fill a particular swimming pool.

    5. PLUS ONE*

      Yeah basic math is needed in most jobs, but I found that universities would overstate the use of complex Math in the workforce. And I say this as a lover of all things Math.
      Once you’re out in the real world you’re not really solving complicated math equations or intricate math sequences unless you’re a statistician, economist, scientist, analyst, engineer etc.
      I have friends who work in the legal and medical field whom have admitted math was not their strong point.
      I fail to see how a SAT score bears any relevance when highschool was a lifetime ago.

    6. Freya*

      This. I’m a bookkeeper, I work with numbers for a living. I use pattern identification and matching far more than mental arithmetic, because computerised accounting is a Thing.

    7. It's a breeze*

      I recently applied at this same company to work in HR. I’m 36, and had to go digging for my scores. Apparently I had really good language skills, and slightly above average math. I was rejected so fast, it was amazing. I realize it could ve many things, but I have a feeling I was weeded out.

  7. Ell*

    God help me if anyone asks what my high school math scores were.

    My bet is someone paid so much money for some consultant to build these application questions for them twenty years ago and nobody has ever considered them since.

    1. Jill Swinburne*

      I recently found my old high school exam papers (they return them to you, but goodness knows why I still have them). They were very interesting reading: I couldn’t do half the equations in them now. So, I passed back in 2000, but it’s hardly a reflection on my current skills.

      1. Artemesia*

        I’m guessing I would have no idea what to do with quadratic equations which I once limped through.

        1. Old Woman in Purple*

          I remember LOVING quadratic equations in high school algebra, back in the mid-’70s, but absolutely couldn’t remember enough specifics to help my daughter when she was taking the same class in the late ‘aughts… did manage to remember enough through shifting cobwebs to give her hints that helped her figure it out, but even that much is gone now, another ~20 years on.

          My math these days is mostly limited to basic algebra while grocery shopping, figuring out which package of flour is the best deal, or grade school math balancing my checkbook.

      2. Wendy Darling*

        I can’t remember how to do long division and every time I consider re-learning it I just use the calculator on my phone instead.

        If all the electronics magically quit working I will be screwed but I have dyscalculia so any time anyone needs me to do calculations longhand we’re automatically screwed anyway.

      3. Freya*

        My husband recently got his dyslexia diagnosis. Part of the process was providing evidence of childhood academic patterns like struggling when subjects required extensive reading and writing and not when they didn’t. He was convinced he no longer had his reports and was surprised when I pulled them out at the pre-assessment chat and pointed out that very pattern as pretty consistent throughout his schooling (I’d pulled them out of the back of his filing cabinet and seen that very pattern. I was already convinced he needed assessment, but seeing that pattern took away any reservations I had about pushing him to get it done as the first step to getting accommodations at work)

    2. a fever you can't sweat 0ut*

      i think i’m much better at math now than i ever was in high school. (excel also helps).

  8. LadyAmalthea*

    My husband has applied for multiple jobs that require a PhD that ask for his GCSE and A level results as part of the form application.

    I actually remember my class rank, colleg GPA, and SAT scores, all of which need translation to junior cert/leaving cert subjects and none of which make a jot of difference in my job, even if I had to include the high school and college info in my application.

    1. Sam*

      Yes this is very common in the UK, particularly for academic jobs. I’m a Canadian with dual citizenship and have been applying for jobs there. I never did A levels as my high school education is Canadian but the ATS field is often required – forcing the non-British applicant to commit fraud. The rest of the world doesn’t have A levels, so it’s also hyper local: odd for universities who want to be able to hire the best from around the world.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        Having commented above about trying to get around GPA requirements as a British person in the US, I’m sorry that UK applications are equally terrible for international applicants.

        1. Beth**

          As an American living in Britain, I am relatively comfortable putting my AP exam results in when asked for A levels. (There is official government guidance for universities on converting overseas qualifications into A levels.) But when they ask for GCSEs, I have nothing. There are no national exams in the US at age 16. Some online forms won’t let you leave blanks, which is infuriating (and discriminatory.)

      2. Lexi Vipond*

        The rest of the UK doesn’t even have A levels!

        But I agree that asking for school results isn’t wildly unusual here, possibly partly because it’s usual to have a full CV, so there’s not quite the same sense of leaving things behind. Not a whole discussion of your school results, though, that is weird.

        1. Sam*

          A couple of jobs I applied to not only wanted my A levels results, but the subjects! I believe three A levels is normal (anyway there were exactly three spaces to fill in), and in Canada I did a full course load of five courses in my last year of high school, so I had no idea what to put. I just made something up.

          1. MsSolo (UK)*

            I think A levels pop up more here because our education system was set up to start dropping courses at 14, back when you could leave school at 14, and though GCSEs are now a pretty wide spread of subjects, you can absolutely stop learning maths at 16 and never look back, especially if you failed, which can be an issue for some jobs where there’s a basic level of maths assumed. My degree is English Lit, but I have Maths, Physics and IT amongst my A levels, so if an application asks I make sure to include them. Only allowing 3 slots for A Levels is pretty old fashioned though – I did 5 A levels 20 years ago, and though that was largely my own fault, with the advent of AS levels a few years before being able to take more than 3 became pretty widespread.

        2. londonedit*

          That’s interesting because I’ve never had anyone ask for my GCSE or A level grades and I’m in the UK – it must be an industry thing. I think publishing is quite laissez-faire! We also don’t tend to use application systems or forms – it’s mainly still CV and cover letter. I do have basic mentions of my GCSE and A level results on my CV (like ’10 GCSEs at A*-B grade’) but I said in another comment further up that I’m considering taking those off next time I apply for a job, because I’m in my mid-40s and no one cares what GCSEs I got in the previous century.

      3. Sharpie*

        International A-levels exist but you’d have to be probably at a school following the British curriculum (international British schools are a thing, mostly for children of ex-pats or whose parents want them to have a British education).

        Source: one of my roles over summer was inputting marks from papers where a re-mark was requested, and some of those were international A-levels.

    2. Tangurena*

      Our family was living in Ireland when I was in high school. My parents had the paper copy of my leaving cert with the grades on it (it has since been lost over the decades). I’ve got 3 bachelors degrees, and sometimes places demand a copy of my high school diploma. Maybe I should just do the GED? Different countries have different expectations for education.

      For folks who don’t know, the leaving certificate is a week long exam taken at the end of your high school years. Between Sophomore & Junior years was (might still be) a week long exam called “Intermediate Certificate”. Originally it was intended to determine if you would take the final 2 years of “high school”, but I was (hah! still am!) a butthead and refused to take the exams.

    1. Liv*

      LW here, it never even occurred to me that this might be their way of screening out older candidates but it makes sense! I’m in my early 30s, but maybe too old for this company.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I’m in my 40s and not only do I not have the information they’re asking for, I have no earthly idea how to acquire it unless there’s a copy of my high school transcript in a file cabinet at my dad’s house from back when I was applying to colleges in the late 90s.

        1. LaurCha*

          It just occurred to me that my high school closed down last year. I have no idea how I’d get a transcript! I’m sure I don’t have any hanging around despite my tendency to hoard documents.

          1. canuckian*

            You’d contact the school board ; if it’s anything like here, they’ve probably got the records stored somewhere. It would depend on how long ago you graduated and what state/provincial laws are in regards to keeping the records.

            We have school records going back to the 1800s, but when my best friend’s son ended up needing a heart transplant, they couldn’t get her father’s medical records from 30 years before because he was dead and they’d been destroyed (he died young of a heart problem….). It’s ridiculous and takes up so much wasted space. They should digitize the records and send the paper copies off to our provincial archives.

          2. Tiny Soprano*

            Goodness, this is just like my new dentist asking for who did my orthodontic work 20 years ago. The man is dead! (Along with many of my high school teachers!)

    2. Ali + Nino*

      Yep, I think this is it (although a particularly obnoxious way of doing it). more commonly I’ve seen applications ask what year the applicant graduated high school, ugh.

    4. ReallyBadPerson*

      But is it? I’m old and although I do remember my SAT scores, I would have no problem making stuff up for this application. It’s a creative writing assignment. Surely they recognize that old people can be ironic/witty/meta, whatever?

    5. BethDH*

      I doubt it because I feel like there’s less value on these areas now than there was 20+ years ago. So I think older applicants might actually remember them better!
      My suspicion is that it’s a really bad way of not requiring a college degree for the role, like they took all the (also bad) questions they had for recent college grads and tried to make them apply when they stopped requiring a degree.
      Some employers are eliminating degree requirements for roles that don’t REALLY require them. A lot of the people who implement these directives don’t get that the idea is to base screening on demonstrating competence, not just replacing one academic system with a slightly more accessible one.

  10. It's a breeze*

    It’s funny that I immediately recognize what company this, because it recently sent me on a weird hunt for my SAT scores even though I have a graduate degree, though I’ve lately had more and more people asking for my high school info on applications, which seems weird.

    2. No clever username*

      same, but the second page of the application is even worse. I can’t remember what they asked but I gave up very quickly.
      I believe this company in particular is absolutely using these questions to screen out older people.

      1. Procedure Publisher*

        The company that I seen use these questions mentioned in the letter didn’t have a second page of their application. I wouldn’t be surprise that is the case.

        I know the company that I saw using this questions was highly biased towards candidates who have volunteered to contribute to open source work. Reason why I applied was because they were fully remote and do off sites twice a year for a week.

      2. Gumby*

        Joke is on them! I graduated from high school 30 years ago but still remember: my SAT scores, my high school GPA, my high school class ranking, which AP tests I took and what I scored on them, and my college GPA. I do not know why I remember all of that. But they are stuck in my head.

        Also? They are worse than useless for determining what I can do now. I mean, I got a 5 on the Spanish Literature AP test. It’s been 30 years since I’ve read even a page of Spanish much less an entire novel.

    3. jenny_linsky*

      Yep, I had a guess about which company this was just based on the title of this post, and when I saw the questions I knew I was right.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      That’s so wild! I was just scrolling down to post that this must be an internship application that the LW was sent by mistake or something.

      My mind is blown.

    5. Jamjari*

      Same. Or at least it’s very similar. And as someone else mentioned, I wonder if it’s a way to ensure a candidate pool in a certain age bracket.

      1. I Have RBF*

        I graduated from high school 46 years ago. I would probably send them a snarky response about asking for high school scores is age discrimination.

    6. Tangurena*

      I blame the fad called “top grading” which is weirdly obsessed with high school. If they are abusively direct about demanding references, then yes, you have stepped into an interviewer obsessed with this fad.

      1. Annalee*

        Yup. Top Grading starts from the assumption that most candidates lie about and inflate their accomplishments and experience, and recommends strategies to scare candidates who’ve done this into dropping out–by being demanding about references and being aggressive about communicating that all claims candidates make will be scrutinized and verified.

        But there have been heaps of studies showing that underrepresented minorities are extremely likely to minimize, rather than inflate, our achievements–partially because we know that we will be doubted and scrutinized if we claim the credit we deserve for our work.

        Top Grading also strongly encourages recruiting from within your network so that you can trust your candidates not to lie, which, um. *Stares In Sam Bankman-Fried Was In Every Tech CEO’s Network*.

        Top Grading is basically a playbook for discriminatory hiring practices that will help tech companies hire people exactly like their founders while putting a veneer of “objectivity” over it.

        Incidentally, the strongest predictor of K-12 academic success in the United States is household income. Its gravitational pull is so strong that other factors are like a candle next to the sun.

    7. IWentHojo*

      Pretty sure I recognize this too. I keep meaning to send the entire list of questions to AAM because it was past bananapants into full banana wedding ensemble with detachable train and floor length veil.

  11. Isashani*

    It’s so egregious I’m actually wondering if the person who made the questionnaire hates their boss/org and is waiting to see when they’ll realize the whole recruitment process has been sabotaged. Maybe the org stiffed the contractor who made the website.

  12. Lurking Tom*

    I definitely have no recollection or way to prove a score from a single test I took almost 40 years ago. For that matter, I couldn’t begin to tell you my GPA from the college I graduated from 35 years ago or the grad school I completed 25 years ago. I also can’t think of a job I want badly enough to put in the work of digging those things up.

    1. BigLawEx*

      *looks at Lurking Tom’s numbers and thinks…wow that was a long time ago*
      **looks at my graduating HS 36 years ago, college 32, graduate school 28…**

      Don’t remember. I’d have to be pretty desperate to call around. I think this has to be a back out situation… Feels like guessing could lead someone to believe there’s fraud if they verify later, though.

  13. WillowSunstar*

    I would agree they are definitely trying to screen out older workers. I don’t even remember what my GPA was in high school, but I have the GPAs from my college degree and it was decent enough. If this was supposed to be an entry-level position, that should be made clear in the posting.

  14. JTM*

    If I came across this in a job application, I’d hit the “x” so fast.

    I’m so tired of employers making the application process harder than it needs to be. All you really need is my contact info and my resume. Maybe a cover letter. All those questions are unnecessary and annoying.

  15. Annalee*

    I know you prefer we avoid naming specific companies because folks are usually wrong–but in this case the questions are identifying: Canonical is notorious within the tech industry for using those exact questions, and generally being obsessed with high school performance in their hiring process.

    There are pages and pages of essay questions.

    For hiring software developers.

    Yes, really.

    I don’t think it’s trying to screen out older workers so much as–you know the stereotype of the high school nerd growing up to be a tech CEO and Showing Them, Showing Them All?

    So anyway Conical CEO Mark Shuttleworth was Head Boy at both high schools he attended.

    Except the people he’s totally sticking it to by proving that being a nerd in high school is actually the way to win at high school are *checks notes* Linux kernel developers.

    Some dudes will design an entire hiring process around Proving They Were Cool In High School rather than getting therapy.

      1. ubotie*

        So yeah, this sounds like one very weird company doing a very weird thing and if I were the LW, I would just close the application page and move on with my life.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      When I was in high school, I thought getting excellent grades meant I was smart, which was good, because I knew I wasn’t popular.

      As an adult I’ve figured out that 1) wisdom is so much more useful than intelligence or grades; 2) caring about other people instead of yourself is a good way to be popular; 3) there are some very smart people who didn’t get good grades; 4) no-one cares now what kind of grades I got in high school, but lots of people care about the quality of my work and the type of person I have become.

      Sounds like he hasn’t learned some important lessons found after high school.

      1. HannahS*

        I was a nerd in a nerdy high school where the social currency was achievement, not dating or cool stuff (it was great for me!) I then developed a chronic illness that basically took all that away and had to learn new ways of developing a sense of self…it was formative, to say the least. I cannot imagine how utterly empty I would feel if my sense of self was still solely standing on who I was in grade 10.

        I also was under the impression that to be “educated” meant “reading The Classics” so I read through many great works of classic literature and poetry and hated them all because as a 16 year-old rather sheltered religious Jewish girl, I lacked the context to fully appreciate Hamlet and Crime and Punishment.

        1. allathian*

          Everyone lacks the context to fully appreciate the classics as teenagers. The vast majority of those books were written for adult readers with some life experience. I know I didn’t appreciate them much, and I didn’t have to read all that many of them at school.

          I rather pity the folks who peaked in high school.

          1. ferrina*

            I read a number of classics as a teenager. What I learned: Classics are all about marketing and PR.

            I loved some of them- Dickens was and always will be an absolute gem. But James Joyce was a literary emo band- he did some cool experimental stuff, but focused waaaaaay too much on hyping up how special his characters were because they *checks notes* felt lonely in a way that no one could possibly understand. And Odysseus was just odious- I was rooting for the monsters by half way through. And the inheritance law was ridiculous- seriously, I’m supposed to wait a decade plus to move on with my life after my husband is lost at sea? Was Penelope’s last name Havisham?

            My teachers were always so impressed when I rattled off what I was reading, then mortified when I told them my honest opinion. I guess Classics were supposed to be revered, not understood.

    5. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

      Yep. I immediately knew the company from these questions. Was very, very glad I did not receive an interview from them.

    6. Traveling Nerd*

      Hah I was also about to comment – Canonical! I had one friend who loved Ubuntu try to stick out the rest of the process, and she said it just got weirder and weirder from there.

    7. Spencer Hastings*

      This reminds me of an article I read recently — not the same company, but it was so ridiculous that I had to make a note of it: https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/10/30/why-this-ex-google-exec-always-asks-about-candidates-life-before-their-resume.html

      The tl;dr is that this person asks candidates about their “life before their resume” — e.g. if they’re hiring an engineer, they want to hear stories about taking things apart as a child, because this apparently provides deep insight into the kind of person the interviewee is.

      It’s funny, because one piece of advice I used to hear over and over is “when applying for grad schools/jobs, you will be tempted to write in your cover letter that you were fascinated about [field/topic] since you were a child. Don’t do this, because it’s irrelevant and looks unprofessional.” And here we have someone who does want candidates to do it, LOL.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Fun fact, this is an excellent way to introduce gender bias into the process! Almost across the board, boys are given many more opportunities to show science, engineering or computing interest at a young age than girls. Just look at the Lego sets marketed as “for boys” in comparison to those “for girls”. [Cutting out long rant about unnecessarily gendered toys and the lack of good STEM toys for girls.] We also know that girls are more likely to be reprimanded for “getting dirty” and similar.

        A surprising number of female software developers didn’t start taking computer programming classes until college, and this question would be a good way to weed them out.

        1. Gumby*

          Also maybe socioeconomic status. Because even had I been fascinated by how things work, no, I did NOT take things apart when I was growing up. We could not afford a replacement thermostat or clock or radio or whatever if I managed to disassemble it without being able to reassemble it.

      2. ferrina*

        mwahahaaha!

        My childhood was full of emotional abuse that makes the film “Gaslight” look like a light-hearted romp. This exec would be asking for a trauma dump, and I would absolutely oblige.

    8. Procedure Publisher*

      The context is something that I wouldn’t have know. I always found those questions weird to ask especially the math one because I only knew of my overall class rank.

      (Side note, math is my worst subject in school and is why I didn’t pursue computer science as a major. It is why I ended up as a technical communication major.)

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I’m a software developer, and I don’t think I’ve used any math I learned in high school on the job. I’m an algorithms nerd who can compare the efficiency of two different processes (I guess that’s algebra?), but that’s generally only used in the interview and I remember absolutely nothing of calculus. If I have to add two numbers together myself instead of having the computer do it for me, something has gone terribly wrong.

        In contrast, I use the thesaurus about once a week in search of the perfect function or variable name.

        1. I Have RBF*

          I remember someone in a Google phone screen asking me how I would multiple two numbers on the command line. Not something I ever had to do. It took all my might not to say “I wouldn’t. That’s what calculators are for.” Now if they had asked how I would do it in a script, I would have more of a clue, but would have asked what language… (Note: Linux/Unix command line or shell script math is not intuitively obvious. That’s because the command line is not intended for it.)

    9. Anon for this*

      I worked there for a long time. This hiring process was introduced a few years ago and pretty much everyone hates it, except for the CEO and the head of HR who are 110% into it and think it’s the Absolute Most Objective Way to Hire Awesome People.

      As well as making the company a laughing-stock (which is truly a shame because it had, and still has, a lot going for it), it also comes with a truly soul-destroying amount of paperwork for anyone on the inside even tangentially involved in hiring.

    10. UbuntuUser*

      Ubuntu Linux has been my go-to Linux distribution for many years. I am sad to learn about how crazy the people behind Ubuntu.

    11. Lucifer*

      So definitely the type of nerds that should be ostracized—not for being nerds but for being obnoxious, rude buttheads.

  16. It's Marie - Not Maria*

    I believe I may have seen that job posting or a similar one, and I got the impression it was written by someone from outside of the US. Companies in other countries can ask those types of questions, and it is expected. One I saw was for an HR position with an international company that had HQ outside the US, and I gently reminded them these questions could be perceived as Age Discrimination in the US on my application. I never heard anything from them, so I am guessing I hit the nail on the head.

    1. dulcinea47*

      from the way this is talking about “grading classes”, it’s def not in the US, I’ve never heard of any of that.

      1. Lexi Vipond*

        1st, 2:1. 2:2, 3rd? That’s the UK system – I think it’s just trying to cover a few possibilities as examples.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        I think they refer to the systems of a few different countries. You graduate from UK universities with a 1st, 2nd or 3rd class degree. We don’t have GPAs, though – that’s the US system, right?

  17. Not A Manager*

    I knew someone who regularly hired for a very prestigious internship type of position. Everyone offering this position would be flooded with spam from people who just applied everywhere.

    He would reply to every application (which most of the employers did not) and ask for a high school transcript and proof of SAT scores. It was blatant gate-keeping along the lines of “If you respond to this personal ad please put ‘avocado’ in the subject line.”

    I wonder whether the employer is using this in a similar way, to see how well the applicants follow directions and are willing to track down supporting documents. Not saying it’s a great idea, just speculating about the reasoning.

        1. Nah*

          It’s about ten year last I checked, though iirc they ~might find it in the archives for a price~ so good luck!

          (yikes on bikes!)

    2. Stuff*

      What do you do if you never took the SAT? I didn’t, I did the community college to university track, and I wasn’t even allowed to submit SAT scores when I applied to transfer to universities, so I didn’t take the test. Didn’t take it in high school, either. I was going into the military (until medical problems popped up in basic training), so I never bothered with the SAT in high school, or any degree of college prep. My transfer application was based purely on my community college grades and letters of recommendation.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Well, seeing as it’s purely being done to eliminate people and trim down the numbers of applicants, I think it would succeed at excluding you in your case

      2. Starbuck*

        What do you do? Nothing, these types are happy to just disqualify you based on that, they don’t care unfortunately because they’re not good at hiring.

      3. Not A Manager*

        Absolutely not. I’m sure he just wanted any indication that the person wanted to work specifically in his office, and not any old where. A polite reply explaining your circumstance would have been fine. Same for not being able to track down the scores, although most applicants were fairly early-career.

      4. WillowSunstar*

        Yeah, I had to take the ACT. In the 90’s, the high school I went to didn’t even offer the SAT.

    3. MigraineMonth*

      That’s a terrible way to narrow the applicant pool to people who are particularly interested in the job. Instead, he’s filtering out people who can’t easily access their SAT scores and college transcript (which includes older applicants, non-traditional students who didn’t take the SAT, people from foreign countries and those who cannot afford to pay for a transcript). That’s aside from the fact that SAT scores in particular are heavily biased and shouldn’t be used for hiring after someone has had a few years of college; as in the OP’s question, a lot of wise applicants will self-select out of a hiring process that focuses so much attention on weird and irrelevant details.

      If you want to narrow the applicant pool to people who are very interested in the position without introducing so much bias, require a cover letter. We’ve had hiring managers comment before that doing so allowed them to focus on the 5% of applicants who did submit a cover letter, and the cover letter was also useful in hiring (not just an exercise in jumping through hoops).

  18. Veryanon*

    A few years ago I intervened for a senior level position where the interviewer kept asking me questions about my college major, like “why did you pick that major?” Reader, I graduated from college in 1990, almost 35 years ago. Why would my thought process at age 17/18 be relevant to my professional skills and abilities now? When I politely attempted to turn the conversation to my more recent accomplishments or what I felt I could bring to the table, the interviewer insisted on an answer to the question. I finally thanked them politely, told them I didn’t think this job was a good fit for me, and left.
    Maybe it was their way of screening out older employees, but then why bring me in for an interview at all?
    All this to say that once someone has been on the workforce for a while, their academic history really doesn’t matter.

    1. Goldenrod*

      God, what a nightmare. I graduated with an English degree in 1991. I can tell you exactly why I chose English (because I had no interest in doing anything other than reading novels) – but it wouldn’t reflect my interests now, which are (luckily) wider and more varied.

      Also, my work ethic is waaaaay better. I was such a confused and lost teenager. But I’m middle aged now, so…..why should my employer care about my mis-spent youth? :p

      1. Veryanon*

        Right? I majored in political science with the thought that I’d be the first female President of the United States. What seemed reasonable at age 17 is not so reasonable at age 56, in a job that has nothing to do with politics.

      2. shedubba*

        I have a degree in economics. I picked that because I’d been wanting to go into math, but when I actually met the guys who were math majors, they all had creepy incel/predatory vibes and I noped right out of that. The econ majors weren’t exactly feminists, but it was a more generally misanthropic worldview, rather than misogynistic, and they all had a healthy dose of pragmatism.

        1. allathian*

          I have a degree in economics and business administration. I picked that college because I wanted to study conversational skills in the langauges I learned rather than just grammar, but I absolutely didn’t want to become a teacher. At the college I went to, all the conversation courses were taught by foreign teachers using their first language.

          I work as a translator, but my working languages aren’t the ones I studied in depth at college. My college degree serves to prove that I completed a college degree, which is a requirement for the vast majority of government jobs here.

      3. Nameless*

        My degree is in art history, because when I was 19 I wanted to be a documentary filmmaker, and an art professor friend said that would help when applying to film school. By the time I graduated I wanted to go to library or journalism school. I did… neither of those things & now work in tech. This story is, at best, an amusing anecdote to share in an interview, not anything instructive about me as an employee now, 20 years on.

    2. It's Marie - Not Maria*

      I have a Masters Degree in Military History. I’m in Human Resources. There is very little which is transferable between the two, other than learning how to do research.

      1. FedIT*

        I also have a Masters in Military History, and I was an HR officer in the Army. At least there was some relevance. Now I’m a database developer.

      2. Wayward Sun*

        I know someone who is a very successful network admin; his degree is in political science. He was in college during the tech bubble and made the very smart decision to pick whatever path would get him out with *some* degree fastest, so he could cash in while the money was good.

    3. CherryBlossom*

      I had a very specific and semi-glamourous major (think Sports Broadcasting or Cosmetic Science), so I still regularly get questions about it in interviews. But it’s usually conversational, and once I mention I’ve left that industry behind for good, the interview moves on.

      I can’t imagine dealing with anyone actually caring about my major and constantly harping on it. School was ages ago, let’s all move on!

    4. NotAnotherManager!*

      That is wild – I picked one of my college majors because I got a letter from the university stating that I had too many credits to be undecided any longer and, if I did not declare a major, I would not be able to register for classes in the spring. So I picked that one because I found the couple of intro classes I’d taken in it interesting and because it was unrestricted and didn’t require an application to declare it.

      There is literally no degree that directly leads to my career, either, so it’s not like I decided at 18 I was going to declare a major so I could work in an industry that did not exist at the time. Most people I work with have some sort of liberal arts-y degree, even though the field is fairly technical.

      1. But what to call me?*

        I picked my first major because I had to choose one for a scholarship application while I was still in high school. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life so I picked a class I’d happened to enjoy the previous year. Unsurprisingly, though I did get that degree I’ve never done a single thing with it. It did earn me some decent tutoring money when I went back to school to get a degree I would actually use, though.

    5. Freya*

      I can tell you why I started the degree I did when I was a teenager. It’s because I had been told over and over and over again that I wasn’t boring enough for the career I have now.

  20. Typity*

    If this is coming up more often, it is probably age discrimination. (Maybe get exasperated people to say “I don’t know, high school was 30 years ago” and gotcha!)

    Or it may be the latest iteration of “Let’s find out if they’re really committed to getting the job.” Particularly with the nonsense about asking people to “justify” what they report.

  21. dulcinea47*

    What I’m getting from this is that I should start mentioning that I was a National Merit finalist on my resume, even tho it was 30 years ago?

    1. Veryanon*

      Sure! I’ll bring up my perfect 800 score in the verbal GREs that I took in 1989, because surely that’s super relevant too!

      1. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

        Yeah, I got 2380 on the GREs. I think the 780 was in verbal, perfect 800s in math and qualitative.

        You know what? Nobody gives a darn about that today. Same with my 1450 SAT, or my 3.77/4.00 HS GPA. Nobody cares.

        Based on earlier comments, this is either hidden age discrimination, or Mark Shuttleworth flexing.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ha maybe this is my chance to dig up the insane 4-page resume I made in college that outlined every single thing I did in high school!

      I’m 15 years into my career and have a one page resume, I can’t believe I made a resume 4 pages long on high school stuff.

    3. Generic Name*

      I mean, it’s been 20+ years since I was in college and I still have “cum laude” on my resume under my degrees. I worked damn hard for those grades as a science major, thankyouverymuch.

    4. LaurCha*

      I had National Merit Finalist on mine for probably too long after high school. And on my academic CV.

  22. j. random hacker*

    Oh hey, it’s Canonical! They’re infamous for their horrible hiring procedure, which involves a super long application (of which this is part), eleventy million interviews, and dropping people with strange or nonsensical explanations after wasting days of their time. Even within the tech industry, where interviewing is bonkers as a standard, they’re exceptionally bananapants.

      1. The Scattered Mess*

        This was my thought exactly. They asked for feedback and I literally told them I graduated from high school a long time ago and I wasn’t clear why this was at all relevant over the 20+ years of experience I had. They rejected me immediately. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    2. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

      I knew it was Canonical! I also applied for a job there, and when I received the hiring process instructions, I immediately went to Glassdoor and read the reviews. And then was very, very glad when they didn’t reach out.

  23. ThatGirl*

    This is reminding me a bit of an interview I had in late 2020 where the interviewer was super hung up on my college experience. I was 39 at the time. My work experience is much more relevant here, I promise.

  24. Sedna*

    this job application is that one 40-something guy from “Glory Days” who won’t stop talking about how good his speedball was in high school

    1. Nicole Maria*

      Yes lol this is me except I never talk about it, but I really did “peak” in high school and it would be nice to be able to discuss something I actually did well on in life.

      1. Cedrus Libani*

        I peaked in high school too, but at least I have enough self-awareness to know it’s ancient history…and I’m not terribly keen on working for someone whose favorite talking points are old enough to run for public office.

        1. Cedrus Libani*

          (Not snarking at Nicole Maria, btw – just rolling my eyes at the sort of person who would design an application process to favor someone exactly like themselves, e.g. good at standardized tests back in high school. It’s part of my story too, but it’s not why you should hire me 20 years later to do a brain intensive but otherwise unrelated job.)

  25. Nicole Maria*

    Personally, I would love this because I did pretty well on the SAT and things like that, but I’m not an especially successful adult

  26. Jester*

    I applied for a job at a hospital and the online application was clearly standard for every job from the doctors/nurses, hospital admins, lab techs, and folks in the cafe. The questions were all over the place. That’s the only time I remember being asked about high school GPA. Thankfully, the app accepted my non-numeric answer of “I do not recall.”

  27. Irish Teacher.*

    This reminds me of the story about how qualified doctors and nurses in Ireland were asked for their Junior Cert. results in order to administer the covid vaccine. For reference, the Junior Cert. is done around the age of 15, so…maybe like asking for your GPA from 10th grade or something?

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/registered-doctor-asked-for-junior-cert-results-to-administer-covid-jabs-1103792.html

    I also think that while they understood that universities around the world grade differently, they don’t seem to have had the same understanding of high school differing. How did I do in English in secondary school? Well, I can give you my Leaving Cert result but…not sure how helpful that is without knowing how many people on average do higher versus ordinary level. Or what the standard is.

    I do, by the way, remember how many points I got in the Leaving Cert., but once I got my degree, it became largely irrelevant. I did have a few schools ask for my Leaving Cert. results, when applying for jobs, but a) it’s a small minority and b) I assume that is to see if there are other subjects you could teach to 1st years or give some resource help in or something. I really doubt whether somebody got 300 points or 500 makes much difference once both have a degree and work experience.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      Do you not have to supply high school grades for teaching jobs in Ireland? It’s a firm requirement here in the UK. Hard copy GCSE certificates for English, Maths and Science have to be submitted for UK jobs, as well as the dates and grades on application forms. I don’t really know why, as even having a degree in the subject doesn’t wave the requirement.

      2. londonedit*

        Yep, I have a friend who wanted to retrain as a teacher, but despite having a degree, decent A levels and loads of working experience, she had to go back and retake GCSE Maths because she’d got a D 20 years previously, and the requirement for the PGCE course was at least a C grade. I get that the system is mainly set up for people going straight into PGCE from the school/uni system, but still, it was an absolute requirement that she had to get her Maths GCSE up to at least a C.

    2. Numbat*

      I once had to supply heaps of evidence of having graduated high school…in an application for graduate school. The fact that I’d graduated a university already didn’t override the need to prove I graduated high school. It was odd.

    3. Tangurena*

      It was called “intermediate cert” back when I was supposed to do it. Checking wikipedia shows that the scoring has totally changed since the 70s. Back then, we got letter scores (A, B, etc). My parents had my leaving cert paper, but it has since been lost.

  28. r..*

    This is bananas; and for someone who, I think, believes themselves to be quite thorough considering international matters, also sloppy.

    My native language was neither the language of instruction in HS, nor was it a possible choice for language education in school. In an international context this isn’t really that unusual a situation, but one the application process isn’t prepared for.

    It is also utterly unprepared for on the math front, and clearly ignorant on different levels of math education in different countries. I only had a B on math in HS; if I went to a HS, it is exceedingly likely that I would have scored an A.

    The standard (!) math track for HS in my country for example includes what you call AP Calculus AB, plus statistics in excess of AP Statistics (AP statistics lacks, AFAIK, any calculus-based techniques); there are math-focused tracks that go further than this, too.

    So that grade is going to tell you what exactly? Even with the context I added, is it comparable to US grades? No. It neither implies that I’m better at math than an average US HS graduate, nor worse, because you do not know how well that student would have done if they had been exposed to the same material.

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      In Ireland, we have higher and ordinary levels for the Leaving Cert. Today, they are graded differently, higher level is H1 to H8 and ordinary level O1 to O8, but in my day, both were A1, A2, B1, B2, B3, C1, C2, C3, D1, D2, D3, E, F and NG. So somebody who got an A1 at ordinary level would sound like they did better than somebody who got a C2 at higher level, when in reality, an A at ordinary level is only equal to a D at higher level.

      And that’s before you even get into the difference with the numbers who do higher level in various subjects. In 2018 more than twice as many students took the higher level paper in English as took it in Maths.

    2. ExplorastoryNZ*

      One of my classmates in high school was Korean. That was her native language.
      She was learning French, from English, in my class.
      But yeah, I don’t think Korean is taught anywhere in my country in the education system.

      1. allathian*

        I’m in Finland, and here kids have the right to two hours of instruction per week in their first language even when it isn’t Finnish or Swedish. For some languages with few speakers in this country it’s extremely difficult to find qualified teachers. The idea is that good skills in their first language will make learning other things easier. This meant remote learning for lots of kids even before the pandemic, most school districts require a group of at least 10 kids to hire a teacher, although they don’t all have to be the same age.

        I completed my education in Swedish from kindergarten to Master’s degree, with about half of my master’s courses in English, now the whole degree at my alma mater is in English to accommodate foreign students.

  29. Susie and Elaine Problem*

    “My art has been shown in the finest galleries. If you consider my mom’s refrigerator a gallery.”

  30. C4TL4DY*

    Honestly this makes it sound like they are trying to hire people out of high school. It might be a sign that you are overqualified and that they want someone with little to no experience.

    1. Procedure Publisher*

      This is a question that comes up on a position that is not entry level at a specific company that has been mentioned in the comments.

      1. Missa Brevis*

        And I think the section on international grading is a pretty clear tell even if we didn’t have that info – who is hiring fresh out of high school with a specific eye toward international applicants?

  31. epicdemiologist*

    Which GRE score? The one from the first time I took it, or the second time almost 30 years later? (They added a section in the intervening years, so the 2nd score is almost 800 points higher than the first. Guess which score the testing company sent to the university when I applied to my master’s program? Luckily I caught it and made them send the right one.)

  32. Emotional support capybara (he/him)*

    I was hot garbage at math in high school but 30 years later I’m acing college math. I’d probably make their heads ‘splode.

  33. Jshaden*

    I have copies of all my university transcripts for Reasons, so I could dig all that out if required. I’m pretty sure I even have my actual high school diploma, but even with my organization and records I doubt I could get those high school details now, 35+ years after HS graduation. And at this point, even my bachelors and various masters’ degrees transcript info seems…not relevant in any meaningful way.

    1. A Significant Tree*

      I needed college and grad school transcripts for my federal job application. Fortunately there’s an online service that is relatively cheap and fast for getting official transcripts, so it’s not the ordeal I remember from years ago getting transcripts directly from the schools.

      While I did it because I wanted the fed job (and recognize their hiring practices are … not great), I wouldn’t bother with an application like the one in the letter or really any that put any weight on decades-old GPAs and standardized test scores.

    2. samwise*

      In the US you can usually order a copy of your high school transcript. If it was decades ago, might take longer to get (depending on how it was stored).

      1. mlem*

        Gets fun if your high school records were on paper (because you’re that old) and the high school facilities were destroyed in a hurricane ….

        1. LBD*

          Or if you discover that they simply lost the contents of your file folder since the last time you requested copies. Fortunately I learned that fact while I still had one remaining copy in my possession. Everyone I showed that copy to understood why I would allow them to look at it or photocopy it only while I kept at least two fingers and a thumb on the paper once I explained the situation.
          *fist bump in solidarity*

    3. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

      I went to a US university that did not give grades (UC Santa Cruz for those unfamiliar with the concept), so I don’t even have a clue how I would answer about my college GPA.

    5. londonedit*

      I think my parents have my degree certificate at their house somewhere. I’ve never been asked for it! We don’t get GCSE or A level ‘certificates’ or a ‘diploma’ but I also believe my parents still have the pieces of paper I got on results day, which have the grades for my various subjects on them. I guess I could show someone those if they really wanted to know!

  34. Apex Mountain*

    Unless this is a literal entry level role, I couldn’t care less where a candidate went to school or what their grades were. I don’t care if you went to U of Phoenix and grad school at Devry – if you’ve been working that’s what’s relevant to me.

  35. soontoberetired*

    I had to apply for an internal position when there was restructuring done at work. Thing was it was a new “title” but I was doing the work already. The application asked about High School and College which cracked me up. I was 28 years into a career here, and I could tell them my grade point average it was totally irrelevant for the position. Someone just kept a generic app for everyone. It’s been changed since.

  36. Dawn*

    This also seems like it’s definitely screening for international candidates.

    I’m not sure why, but it would be a little bizarre in most jobs to make so many references to international standards, native language performance, so on.

    I think you’re definitely onto something when you say that this is screening for a very specific picture of a candidate, at least.

    1. Margaret Cavendish*

      I just commented the opposite below! I think the reference to international scores is actually an attempt to be inclusive, rather than exclusive. They do want international applicants, but it hasn’t occurred to them that they’re asking for things that many people educated outside the US just don’t have.

      1. Dawn*

        I actually agree with you; I felt that they’re trying to screen in favour of international candidates.

        1. Margaret Cavendish*

          Yes, sorry! I do think they’re looking for for international candidates. I just don’t think they’ll get very many, because a lot of countries don’t have grading standards like the ones they’re asking for. So they’re trying to screen them in, but will end up screening them out.

  37. Ellis Bell*

    What a great way to screen out workers who were students from less than ideal homes! Some other questions they may wish to know about teenagers experiences in high school: “1) Did you ever start the school day too hungry to concentrate because of a lack of food in your house? 2) Did you ever find yourself worrying about the domestic violence going on at home when you were in the classroom? 3) Were you also a young carer when you were in high school? 4) Did you ever find yourself caring for younger siblings when you needed to do homework, or get yourself to school? 5) Did your schooling ever get interrupted by serious or terminal illness? 6) Did you and your family ever get evicted (frequently) while you were in school and did this affect your ability to attend the same school regularly?” It’s possible that an employer would admire a student who has turned things around from poor beginnings, and has more to offer in adulthood, but they shouldn’t have to disclose things from a time when they had very little self determination.

  38. A Poster Has No Name*

    Since it’s a general admin position, and they’re targeting entry-level candidates, I can maybe see why some of that might be relevant, but outside of that? ugh.

    Maybe it’s a way to discourage any but the most entry of entry-level candidates…

  39. A Genuine Scientician*

    I know this probably isn’t the reason, but I would love to believe that this is someone’s misguided way of trying to remove degree requirements for a job that doesn’t actually require a degree.

    1. Apocryphal*

      Nope, exact opposite. About 5 years ago this company started requiring a BS for all positions, including the positions you’re now thinking “surely not…”. So a BS is the absolute minimum, but the CEO is still obsessed with high school.

  40. Lindy B.*

    Coming out of college/nursing school, my GPA was 3.8 and my high school GPA was probably around 3.4 or so. But I was still in no way prepared for real world nursing as I had a couple of terrible clinical instructors. Most of what I learned as far as being a nurse was done on the job. I ended up in the NICU, working almost 30 years there, even did some flight nursing along the way.

  41. anotherfan*

    Boy, this brings me back. I was 10 years into my journalism career and looking to move for more money and sent out a batch of letters to papers asking for a job — OK, this was in the 1980s, it was a thing then — and one I got back wanted my high school transcript. I was 32 with 10 years experience. I noped out of that with prejudice even back then. This is just weird for 2024.

  42. Not your typical admin*

    I graduated high school in 2000 and college in 2004z I did well in school, but would have no idea how to find out what my SAT/ACT scores were. I “may” have a copy of my high school transcript somewhere. I also don’t see how any of that is relevant to work experience.

  43. Elle Woods*

    This is totally weird and a huge red flag about the company.

    I graduated from high school in the early 1990s. The only reason I can tell you what my high school GPA and class rank were is because I was helping my parents clean out old paperwork in their basement last weekend. They still had all of my report cards–all the way back to kindergarten. All documents have now been shredded.

  44. I don't mean to be rude, I'm just good at it*

    I had been teaching for almost 20 years when I was recruited to interview for a special program.

    Walking in the door and doing introductions, I had a bad feeling but decided I would see where the interview would lead to.

    The third question asked me to describe my student teaching experience and how it would help me succeed in this program. I stood up, thanked them for the opportunity and made a quick exit.

    When questioned the next day by my principal, he looked incredulously at me and told me that my response was perfect.

    2. Indolent Libertine*

      Completely reasonable response on your part.

      I do wonder whether this was one of those situations where they had decided the only way to be “fair” was to ask every single candidate exactly the same questions, and only those questions, regardless of… any of the crapton of things that make that a terrible idea…

  45. Jess*

    The only thing I can think of is that (unless you studied something e.g. maths or physics-y for tertiary education) high school may have been the last time you were getting feedback on *just* maths or (unless you studied e.g. English) *just* writing.

    But that’s still WAY less useful than how you might then apply any of those skills within the context of a work environment. Baffling!

  46. Delta Delta*

    It’s like the recruiter is Uncle Rico. He could throw that football over the mountain, you know.

  47. Ann O'Nemity*

    Looks like an attempt to get applicants aged 18-24 without including illegal age limits in the job description.

    1. Martin Blackwood*

      I’m twenty three and I dont know how to answer this! My province doesnt do standardized testing, but i *did* do Calc 30, but I have no idea what my grade was! I also had the option to do one AP class, english, which i did badly on the AP exam and just alright in class. But i dont have a degree, which is probably a deal breaker here

  48. me*

    A few years ago, I applied for a job that required a post-college degree and professional licensure at a national company. The online application, which clearly was used for many positions, asked for “high school major” and “high school minor,” and these were required fields.

    1. Stuff*

      Setting aside that they clearly messed up the job application because high school majors and minors aren’t a thing, you know what I don’t have? A minor on my Bachelor’s degree. You don’t have to minor in anything, and I didn’t, I double majored instead.

    3. allathian*

      This made me laugh because in Finnish “korkeakoulu” means college/university. The literal translation is “korkea” = high, “koulu” = school.

      The same thing is true in Swedish, högskola -> hög = high, “skola” = school.

  49. Raida*

    This sounds like a one-size-fits-all thing.
    They hire people without uni degrees, and they hire people from around the world.
    Therefore, this piece of the application is to explain the resume’s education section, is how I read it. I would not fill in info on high school if I’d done a degree.

    I would fill in info on high school if I hadn’t/wasn’t doing a degree.

    I don’t think this is the most useful info they could ask for, and I don’t think they realise that many people when faced with such a thing would get a bit tied up figuring out what to include and not.
    Now if you did do well in high school, got awards, didn’t go to uni – you’d probably be chuffed to see you could list out these things and have them considered seriously alongside people with degrees!

    So, while academic performance in school isn’t necessarily going to translate into work, I do like the idea that for people who don’t have a work history – recent graduates, especially ones who had parents insisting they focus on studies and not get a job – that this is specifically saying “tell us about what you have been able to achieve outside of work”

  50. LingNerd*

    I definitely don’t remember my scores anymore. I used to, but it’s now been over a decade and academics/intelligence aren’t particularly relevant in my work life. In school where everyone was being measured on the same metrics and I hadn’t yet developed values beyond those instilled in me by my family, I took a lot of pride in my grades. I was good at every area of school, always at or near the top of the class. But in the work world, everyone specializes. Sure, I feel like I would be capable of learning how to do pretty much any of my coworker’s jobs given enough time, but I haven’t spent that time learning those skills and I don’t plan to. They have a lot of knowledge I don’t! And I have a lot of knowledge that that don’t, too. Also, what I do now pertains very little to the degree I got in college, let alone anything I learned in high school (beyond like, foundational problem solving skills). Looking at my work history is going to give a much better picture of what I’m well-suited to do!

    Also, I lack some non-academic skills that are very relevant in the workplace. Like time management. And prioritization. You’d probably assume I had those skills based on my academic history, because surely someone couldn’t get through school that well without them, right? Wrong. School was a highly structured environment where priorities were spelled out with deadlines, so I didn’t actually need those skills to complete my work. In a job where those skills were central to the role, I would absolutely flounder.

  51. Salty Caramel*

    Last year, I could not save and finish a job application that wanted my SAT scores. I took the tests decades ago and they have changed how they score them. I tried my original scores, scores from a conversion table from old to new, and various other ideas, but it would not accept anything I gave it.

    I reached out to the company’s HR department, but never heard a thing.

  52. samwise*

    I suspect it’s a one size fits all application: an employer that hires for positions requiring only a high school diploma, thru positions requiring college, grad degrees, etc. And doesn’t bother to tailor the application accordingly.

    Now, that’s not a good idea, at all, but I doubt there’s much nefarious going on here. Never ascribe to clever machinations that which can be explained by ignorance or lack of thought. (Is it evil? or stupid? Stupid is likelier.)

    1. Richard Hershberger*

      Agreed, but this leaves open the question of how they would respond to an applicant that simply blew off the obviously inapplicable parts. Would they regard this applicant as showing rare good sense, or as not being a team player?

  53. GreenDoor*

    I took the ACT. The sun was shining, weather was beautiful. The building I was testing in was near a lovely walkable urban center with shopping and restaurants and I had money in my pocket and no adult waiting on me outside. By the time I got to the 4th section, I was so bored, and so itchy to get outside and explore the world like the unaccompanied minor that I was, that I decided to quickly guess on every answer just to get it done! Lo and behold, the 4th section was the section I scored the highest on. This employer’s application method is nonsense!

    1. Grimalkin*

      My experience manages to parallel yours while also being the exact opposite.
      I took the ACT in high school, as part of our schooling. (SAT you had to arrange yourself, but not ACT… ah, the Midwest…)
      And you couldn’t finish the section early, essentially. I mean, you could, but you’d still have to just sit there, at your desk, without any other entertainment.
      I got through the questions pretty fast, and didn’t want to spend all the rest of my time double-checking my answers, perhaps fearing I’d talk myself out of a correct initial answer (a reasonable fear from what I know of myself now)…
      …but I had to sit at the desk with the test anyway…
      So I just started seeing what song lyrics I could remember off the top of my head and scribbled those down in the margins of the test.
      I did very well on my ACT, as it happens. And my parents joked that it was because the test graders just liked my song lyrics…

  54. Somewhere in Texas*

    As someone who has recently been doing job applications, it is WILD the questions being asked. You could do a whole bracket on the sheer audacity of some companies.

  55. Older and possibly wiser*

    My high school story is similar to others here — I got what was then the highest SAT score ever achieved by anyone at my school, but I just test well. My GPA was terrible, accurately reflecting the fact that I hated school, attended as rarely as possible, didn’t do homework, didn’t do assigned readings, didn’t participate if I showed up and was stoned or drunk most of the time. But that ridiculous score got me into college, where I continued to be a terrible student until I got married after my third time dropping out and returned with some motivation.

    1. Morgi Corgi*

      I was the opposite, I had a great GPA in high school and always made the honor roll, but I struggled when it came to taking tests. One of my college professors said I had the worst test anxiety she’d ever seen in her 30 year career. All my test scores would have shown is that I needed anti-anxiety medication and my grades showed I had no school-life balance whatsoever.

      1. Older and possibly wiser*

        Your story is similar to my wife’s. She was a hell of a student but would get tangled up on standardized tests because she would read questions and start thinking and see how more than one of the answers might work, instead of just skipping to what intuitively sounded like the test-maker’s choice of the “correct” answer as I did.

        Her experience helped me later in life when I was editing academic materials — I was able to spot “distractor” question-and-answer combos and head them off by thinking like my wife.

  56. Nomic*

    I remember my high school ACT because I was told by my college choice I could get a 4-year scholarship if I got it one point higher (to…30-something). I did, and I did.
    I remember my College GPA because I missed Magna cum laude by 0.01 (it didn’t affect job prospects at all of course, but at the time it meant a lot to me).

  57. Dav*

    was this by any chance public sector in the UK? they get very hung up on English/Maths GCSEs or equivalent.

  59. Lakes*

    Sounds like you took all AP classes and graduated valedictorian of your high school class then! Sadly your high school burned down last year with all of the paper records of your academic achievements. Dang.

    1. Missa Brevis*

      I mean, I did take every available AP class and graduate valedictorian (caveat: my high school didn’t do ranks so there were like 8 of us with the same gpa and class schedule who were val together and we elected a speaker who was, thank God, not me) and neither of those facts has any bearing on how qualified I am for my job now!

  60. CubeFarmer*

    I had to fill out a paper application once as part of a more traditional (resume, cover letter, interview) process. The paper application asked me for information on my high school, including the address and phone number (which I was able to look up on my phone,) and then asked me about every job I’ve ever had, including supervisors’ phone numbers. I had to point out that one of my supervisors had retired, one had left his job and I didn’t know how to find him. My interviewer told me that the paper-and-pen application was a formality and that no one would look at it. So…why have anyone fill it out? That whole process was a giant red flag (on top of the other red flags…)

    1. I Have RBF*

      I hate when they ask for all of your jobs, including manager’s name and phone number. I can barely remember some of the names, never had phone numbers for some, and a few of them are dead now! I just write N/A and 000-000-0000 for the phone number. Plus many of the companies I worked for literally no longer exist. If they screen me out, it’s no loss if the company wants extraneous BS like that.

  62. el l*

    I read this as one of those letters we get every few weeks…where they have a wildly burdensome process for applicants, with all kinds of irrelevant questions.

    And like those letters, you just got a great view into where the organization’s head is at. Which is: Not anywhere looking productively forward.

  63. Not Always Right*

    Only tagentially related to this topic. I had to produce a copy of my HS diploma for a job that I applied for and got when I was 46 years old. I did not graduate high school becuase we had race riots in my junior your so I took the GED test, and my diploma reflected this. They almost did not offer the job to me; however, the person who ended up being my manager had enough good sense to realize that the over 40 years experience I had was a bit more relevant. I still shake my head about that. BTW, I stayed at that job for several years before they moved HQ to a different state.

  64. Margaret Cavendish*

    This also seems like an excellent way to screen out anyone who wasn’t educated in the US, despite their mention of international standards. I got my high school and university education in the far-off land of Toronto, Ontario, and I still couldn’t answer most of these questions.

    High school math: That was a very long time ago! I’ll make something up.
    High school “native language”: English, higher mark than math. I’ll make that up too.

    Rationale: ….because I’m cool like that? No idea. I’m not aware of any provincial or national scoring standards, or how my hypothetical grades would have compared to them. I don’t have SAT or ACT or any of those other acronyms.

    Bachelors degree result: Literally, a bachelor’s degree. GPA isn’t a thing here, nor is any of the other grading systems mentioned. Classes were marked out of 100, so I guess I could go back and make it up calculate a mathematical average?

    Honestly the biggest thing they’re screening for here is people who have the ability to bullshit their way through a job application. In which case, they’ll probably get the exact results they deserve!

      2. Margaret Cavendish*

        Either way! I still couldn’t answer the questions, because there’s no equivalent in the system I was educated in.

    2. Martin Blackwood*

      Yeah, this literally made me google canadian education standards. cause for me in SK theres only a test in certain circumstances. Theres no national test, since education is the jurisdiction of the provinces. Every university bases admissions on your average as a percentile, or your grade in a cource as a percentile, not a SAT. In most provinces that have some kind of test, your result on these tests count towards your final grade. So, for most canadians, theyre more likely remember vaguely how they did in the class overall, rather than any test result.

  65. Former Retail Lifer*

    I remember interviewing for a job once (that I was slightly overqualified for) and the interviewer asked me to tell him what I was like in high school.

    I was 35 at the time.

    1. Richard Hershberger*

      What was I like in high school. Uh… Pimply? Horny? Probably insufferable, too. Is that what they were looking for?

    2. Unkempt Flatware*

      I was a criminal and a high school drop out. A far cry from me today. I actually quite like when someone dismisses me because of who I was 20+ years ago. It tells me a lot about who they are.

  66. Texas Teacher*

    Public schools around here still ask for college GPA, no matter how many years teaching experience you have. Two jobs ago, I ordered my transcripts and an extra copy for myself, and was bummed to realize that my final GPA was lower and more pedestrian than I remembered. Ah, well.

  67. It Ain't Me Babe*

    When I was about 60, I had a job interview where the asked the same questions. They also wanted me to list every job I had ever had. I asked if they meant the jobs I held while in high school over 40 years ago and they said yes. I ran out of room on the application.

  68. CatMintCat*

    High school is so far away and long ago, I’m not sure I could even find the building any more. As for my results – I have absolutely no idea, and all my documentation drowned in a flood in 2012.

  69. too many dogs*

    I don’t remember anything about SAT scores decades ago when I started college. I don’t remember my GRE scores being a big factor in going to graduate school. I’ve never been asked any of these scores in any of my jobs, & I’ve been around forever. I do remember a great quote when President George W. Bush was speaking to the graduating class at Southern Methodist University: : To those of you who are graduating this afternoon with high honors, awards, and distinctions, I say, ‘Well done.’ And as I like to tell the C students: You too can be president.”

    2. Margaret Cavendish*

      What do you call the person who graduates at the bottom of their class in med school?

      Doctor.

  70. Indie*

    That is one instance where I would self-select out. 1 – High school was so long ago, I don’t even remember the names of my teachers (and even some classmates). 2 – The system back there was so different to the US there is no point in trying to convert scores and compare them to SAT. 3- Because of the different system, I got to skip college and went straight to university. It’s funny when people ask me where I did my undergrad and I say that I didn’t. But yes, I do have a masters and the documents to prove it. 4 – all of my documents are from institutions in a very small, extremely obscure country with a language of barely 7-8 million speakers worldwide. Good luck doing a Google Translate on that thing and I’m not paying for a professional translation. If my 20+ years of proven track records don’t do it for a company, I don’t think they will be able to afford me anyways.

    1. Terminology*

      I’m curious – what is the difference between college and university in your location? Here in the US they are the same thing

      1. londonedit*

        I’m not sure about Indie, but in the UK ‘college’ is generally used to mean an institution that provides education for 16-18-year-olds, and/or vocational classes. You do your GCSE exams at the end of your schooling at 16, and then you can move on to do A levels (more academic exams), or vocational qualifications, or an apprenticeship/other training. If your school has a sixth form, you can stay on there to do your post-16 qualifications like A levels, but you can also choose to go to a college, where there will probably be a broader range of qualifications available to study, as well as the vocational ones. So ‘college’ is broadly 16-18, and ‘university’ is only used for post-18 study, usually for degree courses/Masters/PhD. If someone in the UK said they were at college I’d assume they were under 18.

    2. allathian*

      I did the same thing in the sense that I don’t have a Bachelor’s degree although I do have a Master’s.

  71. Richard Hershberger*

    The posting for my previous job included asking about college GPA. I took this to mean they were looking for someone more junior than the pay I was looking for, and almost didn’t apply. But applying is free, so I went ahead. I was in that job fifteen years. At one point I asked about that GPA question. My predecessor in the position had very poor writing skills. They were aiming for someone with better skills, and landed on GPA as a proxy. The method was flawed, but it worked through sheer dumb luck.

    2. Morgi Corgi*

      I feel like a writing sample would have been better for determining that than someone’s college GPA.

  72. JukeBox*

    This is typical of any application in Germany. They truly and sincerely ask for the month you started kindergarten. My German employer also asks on the application (!) for birthday, marital status, maiden name, children’s ages (for taxes), bank info (for direct deposit), and a “certified record of employment”, which in reality is a collection of reference letters that employees should have been collecting with each job. They want to see the original university degree (that faded framed and stamped document from 30 years ago) so that they can decide your pay grade.

    1. Stuff*

      Everything I’ve ever heard about job seeking in Germany sounds tailor made to allow discrimination in hiring.

    2. allathian*

      Thankfully it isn’t quite that bad in Finland, although when I applied for my current job 17 years ago I had to include the year I graduated from high school and a copy of my matriculation exam diploma (more or less equivalent to the German Abitur) as well as my college transcript and diploma, and the reference letters.

  73. chrispynet*

    High frequency trading firms and other fintech companies ask for this for “we only hire the best of the best” purposes even if you have 20+ years of experience in software engineering. I’ve answered truthfully (high SAT/ACT, mediocre GPAs) and still got hired so it might be a way to weed out undesirables for a non-illegal reason even if they have an illegal reason to want to do this. A lot of these places are VERY male even for tech companies.

  74. NotAnotherManager!*

    My children’s high school does not provide class rank information. We’re in the DC area, which is a lot of uber-competitive Type As, and I guess it was identified as a thing that was causing stress/competition amongst the high-achievers with little value, so they stopped years ago. I guess they can provide their GPA, but the school’s weighting formula is entirely different from the one mine used (we got zero extra grade points for honors/AP).

    I will also note that one of the worst employees I ever had got a perfect SAT score and went to a prestigious school. I was in legal at the time, and BigLaw attorneys are terrible academic snobs – literally every performance-related conversation I had about the person started with, “I just don’t understand they got a perfect SAT score and went to Prestigious University! How can they not [do basic task] right???” One insinuated that, if this person couldn’t do it, maybe we weren’t training correctly or it was too hard. Sure, then how is it that literally everyone but Perfect SAT managed to get it and do it well?

  75. DramaQ*

    I tried for a job with the city county and they asked these types of questions. It was rather amusing because it’s been 22 years so I had no freaking clue what half my grades were or my exact GPA. I sure as heck don’t know the grading system or remember any projects that would be relevant to a professional job. Very little was asked about my actual job experience.

    The final straw was I had to take a standardized test full of math that nobody in my field does by hand anymore. You do it with either software or excel to ensure traceability and accuracy. Some of it I have never done by hand because I grew up with computers. I bombed that test so freaking hard.

    I later realized it probably hasn’t been updated since the 70s and that the test was an easy way for county HR to screen people. You don’t have to look at actual skills or understand the position/resume if you can eliminate people based on a standard test score.

  76. Morgi Corgi*

    I’ve been out of high school for almost 20 years, I have no idea what my SAT scores were! As for my college GPA, although I went to an excellent school my grades suffered because I was struggling with severe, untreated medical issues at the time. Those issues are since under control so my GPA from that long ago wouldn’t really a good reflection of what I’m able to do now as an adult. My wife did poorly in school but is one of the smartest people I know and excels in her career. I also know people who had perfect GPAs at top colleges who went on to have a lot of difficulty in the working world. It’s just not a great indicator of how well someone will do at a job and just seems like such a weird and out-of-touch thing to ask.

  77. Ialwaysforgetmyname*

    I dropped out of high school but then earned a Master’s degree a few years later. I would almost certainly score higher than a friend on an IQ test but he’s a CEO and I most definitely am not. Standardized tests are ridiculously easy for me but it does NOT make me a better employee.

    Is whoever wrote these questions super-proud of their high school achievements and thus think that’s the gold standard?

  78. Stuff*

    I mentioned this upthread, but not everybody even has SAT or ACT scores they can share. When I was in high school, we were pressured to take those tests, but it wasn’t required, and I was joining the military, so I chose not so, since I wasn’t going to go to college out of high school. Fast forward some years (and me having medical problems that got me sent home from basic training, meaning the military fell through), and I was applying to transfer from a community college to universities. In my state, the state university system doesn’t allow community college transfer students to submit SAT or ACT scores, as admissions for community college transfers only takes community college grades and letters of recommendation into account. So naturally I didn’t take the SAT or ACT at this point, as there was no point. Just because I have a Bachelor’s degree doesn’t mean I have any SAT scores to share. Hell, I have a Master’s degree and am working on a second one, and with both applications, GRE scores were optional, they were much more interested in my university grades and letters of recommendation, as well as my personal statement (something I wasn’t allowed to submit transferring from community college to university, interestingly enough).

    So like, how do you even explain that no, I don’t have any test scores to submit because that just hasn’t been something I’ve ever needed to care about?

  79. Ama*

    I know the comments have identified the company and they are just being strange, but I encountered similar questions once while applying to a small museum that had a summer internship program for college students. It was pretty clear they had just adapted their online internship application for a full time hire and not caught all the needed changes (some of the questions still even referred to “this internship”). So in that instance it wasn’t nefarious, just disorganized.

  80. darsynia*

    I went to a terrible high school. We didn’t have AP classes until the year after I left, and honestly everything I just typed was so horrible I’m erasing it. Just… none of these questions have anything to do with MY ability in an environment that was just glad 1/3 of each homeroom graduated. I would feel terrible about myself (cause you know, we specifically pick where we go to high school as kids since we have all the control over that! /s) if I got these questions.

  81. GenX and Tired*

    I think I just applied at the same company as the letter-writer. And had the same reaction.

    Have to admit, my response was kind of salty. Including a statement to the effect that high school was some time ago and that I hoped my age didn’t have an impact on my application.

  82. not a bad writer*

    I am a degreed and highly qualified writing professional who’s never been able to get more than an “average” score on any standardized writing test, except for the test that verified I could write fluently in English (my first language) to qualify for migrating to another country. According to that standard, I failed.

  83. Sister of Ferris*

    Another “trick” I’ve seen lately on applications is to ask for the month/year you began college. Not your graduation date, but when you started. Since mine begins with 19, I just make up a date. They can play games, I can play games.

    2. I Have RBF*

      The first college classes I took while I was in high school. So technically I started college then. No, I don’t remember the dates, FFS, it was over 40 years ago.

  84. HighSchoolDropout*

    I dropped out of high school after 10th grade to go to college. In fact, I am a high school dropout with a grad degree from an Ivy League school. I still periodically run into issues when job hunting because I don’t have a high school diploma.

  85. beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk-ox*

    I’m one of those people that’s good at school — meaning, I’ve generally been able to get by exerting minimal effort (or maybe I should say highly targeted effort — some classes did require effort; others, I would skip whole assignments if I already had a grade I was happy with) most of the time and maintain As and Bs. I find these sorts of questions particularly silly BECAUSE of that. Like, do you think maintaining good grades means I’m particularly hardworking? Do you see this as an indication of my level of intelligence or ability to pick things up? Do you understand that there has rarely been an exam I didn’t cram for or a paper that I didn’t write the night before it was due, and that also means that there has rarely been a class that I’ve retained much information from?

    Heck, I took pre-calc and calculus less than two years ago because I got my bachelor’s degree pretty late and it was required for that. I am pretty sure I made an A in both. I do not remember anything about it (aside from the utter disdain I developed for trigonometry) because it’s not something that I use…ever.

    Like, I am a better worker than I was a student in part because I enjoy many aspects of my work while school was a mixed bag. I’m also a better worker than I was a student because I didn’t get an ADHD diagnosis until I was in my mid-thirties, and medication certainly helps. I just think it’s ridiculous to try to judge the potential for a solid worker with grades because, even though I made good grades, I wasn’t a good STUDENT. And I’m a good worker because of factors that have very little to do with my performance in school.

  86. Yes I can maths*

    I’m 99% sure who this company is. I interviewed there and even got an offer – which was rescinded personally by the CEO. During my interview with him, he grilled me about my math scores, which I had already filled out in the form several months prior. This is not a role that required maths knowledge. By the time I spoke with the ceo, I had already taken an IQ test, completed a sample project, and went through 5 rounds of interviews – and received an offer. Other red flags at this company – the first interviewer I had said “the ceo likes to throw chairs, just kidding” and “we like to drink a lot at team get togethers” (it’s a remote first company). Since then other former employees have expressed other… difficulties to me… still I would have taken the job if the offer hadn’t been rescinded lol

  87. WS*

    And it doesn’t take into account assessment changes! My state in Australia changed from a pure exam system to an assessed classwork plus exams system in my last two years of high school, and then that has varied back and forth in different balances ever since. Before me, you’d get a total score. Three years after me, you’d get a ranked score (a percentile) for university entry. The scoring system used in my year and the two following has never been used again, and would mean absolutely nothing to anyone who wasn’t teaching or graduating in those three years.

  88. goth associate*

    As someone who struggled through high school with undiagnosed ADHD that meant I bombed nearly every exam, & only finished my undergrad because it was an art degree with NO exams…this is hellish, I would literally close the application upon seeing these questions (aside from anything, I’m 37 & now have a masters degree, why would it even matter what I was doing 20 years ago??)

  89. Elio*

    I kind of remember my grades from high school because I tied in 10th place with some dude I didn’t know and the school made a big deal if you were in the top 25. My college GPA was alright, but my grad school GPA was much less impressive, lol. I bs’d my way through the SAT, like with every other standardized test I took and I guess it was an ok score since the public state schools admitted me.

    Anyway, do agree that this job is weird.

  90. What Did You Say Today Was?*

    Hmmm. I must have taken the SAT because I went to college. I went to law school so I know I took the LSAT. I have no recollection of taking either one at this point. Would that be some clue about my age?

    1. Grimalkin*

      Not necessarily. I remember my SAT and ACT scores but not my GRE score, and I’m in my early 30s. (Granted, I never actually used that GRE score for anything, my parents just thought it was a good idea to take it while still fairly fresh out of college “just in case”.)

  91. octopodiformes*

    So, I was homeschooled by careless people in a time when there was no structure or requirements for homeschoolers and don’t have ANY of that documentation. There are plenty of people like me with a combination of unconventional schooling/educational neglect who exist and it would be nice if forms would stop forgetting that especially when livelihoods are concerned.

    It would also be nice forms would stop asking bullshit like that of adults.

  92. CLC*

    If they want to know how you are at high school level math they should give you a test of mathematical concepts that are relevant to the job, not ask you how you did high school. That’s absurd.

  93. Jen*

    I disagree that GPA is not predictive. I have done some hiring and it seems correlated. I think it depends what position you are hiring for and how soon after college you are hiring.

    1. Jen*

      And just to clarify, if it is a position that depends on the type of smarts/hard work that academia requires, and it is a job that is within the first 5 or so years of entry level, I think I’ve seen a strong correlation.

      1. allathian*

        College GPA might within a few years out of college in the specific circumstances you mentioned, but I suspect the correlation with HS GPA is much weaker.

    2. Jen*

      And also, I am aware of studies saying there is no relation, but 1) those studies don’t necessarily get done under the conditions I specified and 2) a study that says there is no relation is more likely to get published than one that says there is a relation (shock value)

      1. Outing myself as a statistician*

        Shock value is not a factor in whether something gets published, it comes down to peer review, which has its flaws but ideally means the study is evaluated for the rigor of its approach, the soundness of conclusions etc. And while how researchers construct a study might make a difference as to which of the hypotheses (no relation/there is a relation) is the research hypothesis and which is the null, in general, most studies are constructed in which “no relation” would be the null result and null results are typically harder to publish.

        But also, I suspect that a lot of these studies are controlling for other factors that are correlated with professional success (family background, for instance), because a lot of times, GPA and test scores are highly correlated with those sort of background factors, which means that when controlled for–all things equal–the grades themselves are not a proxy. Which means someone might observe academic achievement as a predictor of success, but it would not negate what the studies are seeing on a widespread level.

  94. Nilsson Schmilsson*

    At 60-years old, I was asked for high-school transcripts. For a clerical job. I was retired and just looking for a part-time gig.

    I got them, but man I was a shitty student. LOL. And I didn’t get the job, because they were concerned about my ability to adapt to the fast pace. The fact that I ran a multi-million dollar company, overseeing 40 employees didn’t mean anything. But apparently, my high school GPA did.

  95. TomfoolofaTook*

    I wish this were the main job criterion. I would be hired for everything! I was so good at going to school. I scored four 800’s and a 760 on subject tests …. Alas, this did not make me a great employee, although a well-informed one in certain ways. As a teacher, I was a very bad classroom manager, but some students loved me for my arcane knowledge.

  96. I have a PhD, my SAT scores are under statute of limitations now*

    Oh man, I encountered this company!! I’ve never noped out of an applications so fast (after taking screenshots). It sounds like they do this for every position, but it was particularly ironic given that I was applying to a people analytics data science position.

    In other words, if I thought my high school grades provided useful data for potential employers, I would not have been qualified for that job.

  97. Waving not Drowning*

    Two friends of mine – both with PhD’s, one a lawyer, and both taught business studies – specifically accounting at the University level. At this stage, both were in their late 40’s/early 50’s, took a redundancy and both decided to go on to further study.

    Had a phone call from one, absolutely hysterical with laughter – they had completed the paperwork to register, however, the training institution needed them to either provide their high school certificate showing that they passed English and Math, or, do a proficiency test in both. Evidently having a PhD, or being a lawyer, or an accountant, or, teaching accountancy at a University level, didn’t guarantee that they could write or do math, they needed a piece of paper from 35 years prior to prove that they had those skills.

    (one still had the paperwork – their mother even had their kindergarten certificates in a folder – the other elected to do the test in both, because it was very clear their registration wouldn’t progress unless they did so)

    1. i like hound dogs*

      Lol … I wrote about something very similar below. I have a PhD in English but needed to prove that I had completed English 101 (which I used to teach). When I said it wouldn’t be in the system because I’d satisfied that requirement through AP English in high school and had never taken it in college, they said they’d need those (20-year-old) scores. WHAT

  98. nnn*

    Another weird thing about the “How did you perform in your native language?” question is that when I was in high school, English class (where my native language and language of instruction were both English) was highly focused on literature, with an inconveniently disproportionate amount of time spent on writing literary analysis essays.

    And I didn’t do very well at all, simply because I didn’t have any actual thoughts, feelings or opinions on the use of symbolism in Hamlet.

    However, in university, I was able to take some courses in business, technical and professional writing, and excelled at that. And I have decades of actual real-world experience writing the actual things I actually need to write for my actual job, many of which are on official websites, some of which are actually in print.

    Still can only get a begrudging B- on a Hamlet essay though.

  99. Lizard*

    Oh my god, I applied for this company too a few months ago! It’s the exact same wording as was in my application. @LW, if you see this – please Google the company and their recruitment process. There are some very revealing posts on Reddit about the application process and the work culture. In my case, I cleared the initial application, at which point they sent me a written interview involving upwards of twenty (!) questions – and apparently it was the first interview round of many. Ultimately I decided that a company that was not willing to respect my time in the recruitment process was unlikely to have much respect for my time as an employee, and I noped out of that one pretty quickly. Good luck in your job search!

  100. Holly.*

    I had a similar experience, with an application that wanted my GCSE grades (age 16 exams).
    I contacted the HR dept and politely asked if this was necessary, given my (at the time) over a decade of experience in the industry.
    They agreed this wasn’t required, and I got an interview.

    (I didn’t get the job, and I don’t know if future application forms were updated, but hopefully I gave HR food for thought.)

  101. Mouse named Anon*

    I am nearing 40 and not sure I could recall my high school SAT/ACT scores or college GPA lol. I’d have to request everything. I wasn’t the greatest student, but I tried really hard. I really hope a job wouldn’t hold it against me nearly 15-20 years after graduating.

  102. i like hound dogs*

    Not SAT scores, but I was considering changing fields and was attempting to enroll in a two-year program a few years back. They wanted me to take English 101 as part of the prereqs; when I explained that I had an PhD in English and used to teach English 101 (at the same university!), the advisor said I’d have to dig up my 20-year-old AP English scores from high school to prove I had satisfied the requirement. I get that there are formal requirements, but … come on.

    I did not end up enrolling because of other reasons, but all the friction of attempting to enroll certainly didn’t help.

  103. Hey, I'm Wohrking Heah!*

    Is this the same company that has a menopause support group?
    BOSS: I want a way to discriminate against older workers.
    HR: Not legal
    BOSS: Figure it out
    HR: OK. What about a menopause support group?
    BOSS: Good start, but only harms half the population. How about asking people things in the application that they won’t remember or have access to if they’ve over 30?
    HR: Muah ha ha, brilliant!

  104. PlainJane*

    I think it’s definitely to screen out older workers–younger workers don’t have to remember their scores; they probably have them electronically, easy to access through an alumni portal of some kind, probably with the teachers’ notes and everything. If you graduated before that was common, then you have to go looking. As it happens, I remember my SAT (and the verbal vs. math), but because they’ve changed the scoring system, it’s going to look lower. (Percentile might be a better metric, if they want ask for such a thing in the first place.) But I don’t recall more recent tests like my GRE or the LSAT I took for giggles after I’d already decided I had no interest in being a lawyer. (I remember that percentile on that one was in the low nineties, but I can’t remember exactly where in that range.) As for my grad school grades, not a chance, though I do remember my high school biology score on the Regents, which in my school, replaced the whole grade for the year if it was higher. Which was probably not an ideal set up, but I took full advantage. ;p Which is why it would probably not be the best measure of how I’d do in day to day work. Maybe for completing projects in a massive push over a short time, but you know… not most jobs.

  105. An Opossum*

    Years ago (but still in the era of internet job applications), when I was in the process of starting with a former employer, as part of the official onboarding paperwork, I had to fill out “an application for employment,” which was a pdf that had clearly been scanned from a physical paper. It is worth mentioning that I had applied for the job online and they used what was a fairly cutting edge online application system for the time, so this was particularly odd and duplicative. The pdf application reminded me honestly of a fairly generic applications I had filled out for summer jobs in high school and college, and it asked a number of questions about high school (gpa, activities, etc), which would make sense if you were quite literally hiring someone for their first job but was baffling because probably 95 percent of employees from this company had a college degree, 75-80% had advanced degrees. It was bizarre, and I clearly forgot about it until this moment.

  106. A S*

    I actually applied here. They followed up with another round of “tell us about your high school grades” nonsense. At that point I canceled the interview process. High school was 25 years ago for me.

    I’m convinced that billionaires suffer some kind of brain damage.

  107. UbuntuUser*

    Not me but from a software-related discussion about this AAM post. Let me just leave it here.

    > I am a South African of roughly Mark’s age and I can say that SA is fixated on school results. In school it was drummed into us that results equal work/destiny.
    >
    > Every CV has to have the them. Not sure why but it’s still real today with CVs and job listings here.
    >
    > I think his earlier self is showing through here.

  108. Damocles*

    It’s nearly 20 years now, but McKinsey would target PhDs for recruitment from one of the world’s top universities and then reject them for not having an adequate high school GPA (or non-US equivalents). My understanding of it in this context was McKinsey was interested in employees for whom everything had gone smoothly so wouldn’t dream of questioning some of the sketchier clients they work for. I’ve come to call this “former straight A student syndrome” and flee at the slightest whiff of it in a company’s culture.

Comments are closed.