job candidate says she would need to work for us secretly

by Alison Green on November 13, 2024

A reader writes:

We interviewed a candidate for a part-time position who had been out of our line of work for 10 years. I interviewed her because she had some other things on her resume that seemed really interesting (from a business she’s been running with a family member). Still, we are a quickly-changing industry and it is unusual to grant an interview to someone who isn’t up on the latest developments. So I thought she would be happy when we decided to check references and most likely offer her the job.

However, she told us she could not provide any work-related references — none at all — because (a) the ones from our industry were too old; and (b) it was important that nobody she deals with via her current business knows she would be also working for us, as they had to be under the impression that she is at her online job and available to them at all times. She offered us two personal references, both close friends. We asked again for anybody who could speak to her work ethic, attitudes, demeanor, etc. (a vendor, for example, if she’d rather not have customers know). She again refused. So we moved on with another candidate.

The other candidate is great, but I can’t help but wonder how the first person thought this would work if she did get the job. Is it normal for people who are running small businesses and have a side job to maintain this kind of secrecy between their two jobs? She did not even name her business on her resume — just put “family business” and mentioned the key elements of it. I figured out what it was as I am interested in the topic her online platform covers. They have a solid platform, but she’s not running Microsoft. Why the secrecy? Would people she deals with for her online business care if she had a job with us a few days a week? How could it possibly be damaging?

The best explanation I’ve come up with is that she is embarrassed that the business is not as profitable as she would like, which I assume is why she interviewed with us. But that is such a normal thing in family businesses, it’s hard for me to see how it could be important enough for her to lose a job over. What’s your take?

I answer this question over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

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{ 95 comments }

{ 95 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Rusty Shackelford*

    it was important that nobody she deals with via her current business knows she would be also working for us, as they had to be under the impression that she is at her online job and available to them at all times.

    In other words, she planned on being available to her other clients at all times, even when she was working for you. Bullet dodged, I’d say.

    Reply ↓
    1. Antilles*

      Also, she planned on actively misleading her first job’s boss and clients by working for you when they’re under the impression she’s working on their projects.

      Reply ↓
      2. BatManDan*

        There is a Reddit thread (or two, or three) on being overemployed, and so my brain read it through this lens immediately. (Much discussion on that thread about how to keep one employer know you are working for one or two others, as well.)

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        1. Archi-detect*

          I sympathize with a lot of the angst about work, being disposable to a company and all that (but not to the point of antiwork or anywhere near that) but I do not get how you can even stay sane half butting two or three full time jobs even if it was a good idea. I know many jobs have down time and can really be done in 20-30 hours a week but I have no idea how that could make multiple jobs sustainable unless you are outsourcing your work or turning in AI product or something

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          1. MigraineMonth*

            One of my ex’s friends bragged that she worked three full-time jobs by outsourcing them to the Philippines and offered to show me how to do so. She considered herself an innovator/small business owner/jobs creator. She did have an issue when a typhoon hit the Philippines and several of her “employees” lost internet access because they lost their homes and she had to pretend to be sick for a few weeks to cover at work.

            I declined her generous offer to show me how to be “successful like her.”

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        2. Kes*

          This is exactly what I thought as well. The really surprising thing here is that she’d be that open about what she was planning to do. Most companies are not going to be okay hearing that, since they’ll (rightly) wonder if you’ll do the same to them (and chances are, her “original” job will demand her attention at least some of the time in the time she’s working both)

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      3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Or at least wanted to be paid for two jobs concurrently.

        LW, I think you made the right move by passing on her candidacy.

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      2. Artemesia*

        This. Can’t talk to current job; can’t talk to former job. She is hiding something worse than double dipping.

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    6. Cracker Eater*

      I shared an office with a co-“worker” who spent far too much of his time taking support and occasionally sales calls for the software product he had developed and launched just before he started “working” for us. He also used his “other options for his time” to negotiate ever higher pay – repeatedly.

      Reply ↓
    1. gyrfalcon17*

      My jaw has fallen so thoroughly through the floor that I’m on a journey to the other side of the earth to find it.

      Reply ↓
  3. Kyle S.*

    I hope the Letter Writer wrote in just to share an odd story, and not because they were actually on the fence about hiring someone this shady.

    Reply ↓
    2. Heidi*

      Seriously, the only things we know about this candidate is that she’s been out of the field for 10 years, offers no references, and has a full time job that she is not planning to leave. Even without the secrecy, this is not a competitive candidate for the job.

      Some people just like to be mysterious, though. I met a guy who said that he always needed to be ready to leave his life behind and go off the grid. He did not do any job or activity that would have warranted this. He did not have a particular set of skills or anything, either.

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      2. Seashell*

        “He did not do any job or activity that would have warranted this.”

        I would be scared that the activity might be of the criminal variety.

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      3. Pescadero*

        …but we don’t know she has a full time job she isn’t planning to leave.

        We know she runs a small family business, and she doesn’t want people involved to know she is trying to get another job.

        That small family business might be 1 person, working 5 hours a week. We don’t know.

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        1. Heidi*

          If it were only 5 hours a week, then why does she need to create “the impression that she is at her online job and available to them at all times?” It sounded like the candidate was planning to work two jobs (one for the OP and one for the family business) at the same time.

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          1. Pescadero*

            “If it were only 5 hours a week, then why does she need to create “the impression that she is at her online job and available to them at all times?”

            Clients.

            If you’ve got clients who expect you to be available 24/7, but only actually occupy a few hours a week of actual work – you don’t want them to know, but you can handle another job.

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            1. Irish Teacher.*

              Or it could be that she doesn’t want her clients to know she’s only working 5 hours a week. She might be trying to give the impression that she is a highly sought after whatever-it-is-she-does and that they are very lucky she can fit them in as so many people are desperate for her expertise when in reality she is struggling and only has two or three clients and that is why she also needs another job.

              Possibly not the most likely explanation as her reaction seems a bit over the top to just make it seem like she’s more successful and therefore possibly gain the confidence of clients, but…possible.

              Reply ↓
          2. Cracker Eater*

            Maybe the family thinks it’s a 40+ hours a week job but it’s actually only 5 hours. The rest is automated away, the client support burden isn’t nearly what the business owner thinks it is, or who knows what.

            Reply ↓
    4. Falling Diphthong*

      One function of the blog is to crowd source possible explanations for bewildering choices in professional behavior. Sometimes you have 15 “nope, makes no sense” followed by 1 “this sounds like it isn’t your old employee, but is instead a phishing scheme” or “if you have this setting turned on in office, it can wind up doing this” and your perception suddenly shifts.

      Here, I suspect someone so deep in a dysfunctional family dynamic, and not accustomed to interacting with anyone outside that dynamic, that she sincerely thought “We have to hide any information that would make Aunt Petunia angry” would generate an “Oh, right. Fair point. That’s what matters.”

      Reply ↓
      2. Annony*

        I was thinking less dysfunctional family dynamics and more someone attempting to achieve over employment but didn’t think through how to handle the reference check.

        Reply ↓
    5. Pay no attention...*

      In this particular instance, I think her behavior is shady (can’t provide any references at all? hmmm), but in general — perhaps it’s because of my profession in graphic design — having more than one job is pretty normal these days even if it isn’t always approved by the job that thinks they are the primary.

      Reply ↓
  4. Sandwich*

    I do think everything together points to the candidate trying to hide something, but I have had a former employer decline being a reference because they felt it had been too long (I did good work at this position, so I don’t think it was a white lie). I could see someone honestly having no useable references from old positions without there being a shady reason. That said, you offered lots of other options, so her refusal of everything is fishy.

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    1. FrivYeti*

      Yeah, that part I’m not too concerned about. None of my bosses from anywhere I worked over ten years ago are still there, and I don’t have contact information from wherever they went to next, so I couldn’t give those references beyond maybe a call to HR to confirm that I worked there (if they even keep employee records; a lot of places shred them after seven years.)

      The rest of it, though – that is red flags in a barrel.

      Reply ↓
    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      The reference part didn’t bother me (after all, I’m not into that kind of woo), but the secrecy and volunteering that her other job is paying her to be engaged to wait and she wants that to continue without honoring being engaged to wait both wave crimson red flags for me.

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        It doesn’t sound to me like she’s employed in her other job, but running a business. “I need to maintain the illusion that I’m available 24/7 for clients even though I’m not” is qualitatively different to me from “I’m engaged to wait for another employer”. There are all sorts of fictions that clients want to hear in various settings — that Service Provider is always available; that you are Service Provider’s favourite or most important client; that Service Provider‘s real rates are a lot higher and you’re getting a discount; that Service Provider does this for the love of it and the fee is only to ensure they can keep doing it and so on. These are perfectly normal expectations from clients in many areas, and sometimes are accurate and sometimes very carefully maintained by service providers. It’s not deceptive or an indictment of their morals, even if it makes them unsuitable for LW’s role.

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        1. Kevin Sours*

          Even so that doesn’t really explain why she can’t provide a reference from “within the business”. She doesn’t seem to just be trying maintain a front for clients. It’s still plenty shady.

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          1. KateM*

            Because she works in a family business with close family members and that would be no better than those references from friends she already offered?

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            1. Kevin Sours*

              It would at least be somebody she worked with. The fact that they are less than ideal references doesn’t change the issues with the weird secrecy at all. Normally there is the issue of not wanting to prematurely flag that she is leaving… but apparently she isn’t. And so we come back around to “is she being upfront with her current workplace”.

              Reply ↓
          2. linger*

            If it’s her own business, the only possible independent references regarding work quality would be from clients — and she doesn’t want to alert her clients to decreased availability.

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    3. Susie and Elaine Problem*

      This is why I like the simple “would this employee be eligible for rehire” type question/recommendation. It’s a simple thing that can be put in their file that is virtually evergreen.

      Yeah, it lacks nuance but also has clarity. Some organizations ONLY do this. They won’t give detailed recommendations, they will just confirm the person left on good standing and was competent enough to do their job.

      Reply ↓
      1. Learn ALL the things*

        Wow, I don’t know how I managed to hit submit before I even finished my first sentence!

        I had a similar experience with an applicant when I used to work in hiring. We were in an industry with two subsets, and our organization was subset A. The applicant’s resume indicated that they had experience in subset A, but they would only talk about or offered references for their work in subset B. I asked for a reference for subset A, since that was the work she would be doing for us, but she said it was too long ago and she thought her references for subset B would be better.

        I had a colleague who had worked at the same subset A organization on the candidate’s resume, so I checked in with them and immediately found out why the applicant didn’t want me to talk to anyone about her subset A experience. Her employment there had not gone well AT ALL.

        So, while I’m sure there are applicants whose former coworkers/supervisors will pass on offering a reference because too much time had passed, there are definitely others who are using it as an excuse to hide their past behavior from potential employers.

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  5. Dust Bunny*

    Oh, I remember this one: My guess was that she was planning to do two jobs at once, possibly using the LW’s business’ time and Internet resources.

    Naw, too weird.

    Reply ↓
    1. Adds*

      Reminds me of the time at Previous Job when the newly-hired guy who had the desk next to me spent about half his day either on the phone with his brother talking about his brother’s company’s books (and the best way to hide business and personal assets from Brother’s soon-to-be-exwife who had caught him cheating) or working in his brother’s online bookkeeping software.

      IRRC, I don’t think that guy lasted much more than a month. He also didn’t know how to do the job he was hired to do, but taking lengthy phone meetings for another business while on the clock as an hourly employee certainly wasn’t helping his case.

      Reply ↓
    2. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

      I’m not guessing. OP flat out said the candidate was planning to work two jobs.

      it was important that nobody she deals with via her current business knows she would be also working for us
      (emphasis mine)

      Reply ↓
  6. AnonInCanada*

    Everything about her stinks. And not in a good way. If she doesn’t want to give any evidence that she’s qualified for this position and doesn’t want her current employer to know she’s sneakily moonlighting when she should be working for them, imagine what kind of shenanigans she’ll try to pull over working for OP’s.

    Bullet dodged. Good for OP for staying away.

    Reply ↓
  7. T*

    A slightly less shady possibility is that she is embarrassed by the scope of the job… religious or political maybe… that her family business supports and this could be the 1st step to pulling away from it. Realistically, it’s a huge red flag about integrity.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      Or she’s embarrassed by the new job/feels her family or current job would kick up a fuss at it.

      I agree that there are red flags all over the place here.

      Reply ↓
    2. Darla*

      family business could mean a ton of issues. she may not have full access to her own money (if it’s husband’s family business), she may live with family and could make her homeless if they find out she is trying to defect and go elsewhere. she may be trying to get away from an abusive partner but her family holds him on a pedestal so she needs a secret way of getting more $ or the whole family is part of a super religious/cult that she’s trying to find a way out of.

      yes as a business trying to hire this would be a red flag without her giving a reason why the secrecy but I’m more inclined to think it’s a family issue she’s trying to exit as reason to the secrecy. but i wouldn’t feel comfortable hiring her either without the full picture.

      Reply ↓
      1. wickyj*

        In the spirit of generosity, I was thinking along the same lines. If she works for her husband’s family business and, say, wanted to divorce, having a new job that she would need to keep secret (for now at least) would make some sense.

        Still, I think there’s a gap in her understanding how the world works. She may have a plan, but finding a co-conspirator in an employer who is willing to go along with is wishful thinking, at least for most legit jobs.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tupac Coachella*

          “Still, I think there’s a gap in her understanding how the world works. She may have a plan, but finding a co-conspirator in an employer who is willing to go along with is wishful thinking, at least for most legit jobs.”

          This is the part that stood out to me. Even if it’s not necessarily the most likely scenario, sure, she could have a completely legit reason. But asking OP to essential cover for her is not a reasonable request. This isn’t “keep my picture off of the website” or “use my nickname in my e-mail address,” it’s “hide the fact that I’m even employed here.” That’s a big commitment from an employer, and likely to be much more inconvenient than they expect.

          Reply ↓
      2. Kay*

        This was basically the reason for a situation I have come across before. It was a woman trying to escape a domestic violence situation in business with her husband. She was doing her best to extract herself, but since that was her only work for the last 15/20 years there was truly no one she knew who could be a reference and it was too risky to ask anyone.

        We kind of darkly laughed since another woman we knew had a similar situation, except her husband was her sole client for about 10 years and even though you couldn’t tell they were married by observing their work interactions and he would have happily give her a great reference – a spouse simply isn’t a worthy reference.

        For me – I have sectors of clients that would behave like I had threatened to set their pants on fire if I were to ever tell them something like “I’ve picked up a part time job”. The unavailability due to charity work – totally fine, unavailable for large blocks of time due to licensing requirements over a long period of time – no problem, personal time – fine but they would find a way to only just slightly bug me, another job that wouldn’t interfere with much of anything – apocalypse level disaster.

        We of course were all very aware of how much of a challenge it would be for an employer to accept “You can’t have any references” so that is what is throwing me off here. Perhaps she wasn’t quite pulled together about it.

        Reply ↓
  8. vinylbunny*

    If her main job is a family business, that means there’s family…issues…involved. Money issues, communication issues, etc.–none of which are your problem! Like, I’m sorry she needs more money and doesn’t want her family to find out, or is planning an exit strategy from the family business and isn’t ready for her family to know, or whatever, but standard-issue non-family-businesses aren’t set up to work around that in the way she desires, and that’s okay.

    Reply ↓
  9. Paint N Drip*

    The comments on this last time, including from Alison, really focused on the concept that this hire was going to be working the other job WHILE they worked for OP, double-dipping hours or focus. I didn’t see any proof of that, and I didn’t see that as the primary motivator.

    OP recognized the applicant’s work after researching them, and even mentioned using their product or website or whatever this applicant was doing. It isn’t crazy to me that the applicant didn’t want the OPTICS of ‘product/website isn’t successful financially’ via openly having this other job – I personally don’t think a product or business or whatever MUST be financially viable enough to support you fully to be successful, but I can understand someone wanting to appear that way.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      OP recognized the applicant’s work after researching them, and even mentioned using their product or website or whatever this applicant was doing. It isn’t crazy to me that the applicant didn’t want the OPTICS of ‘product/website isn’t successful financially’ via openly having this other job – I personally don’t think a product or business or whatever MUST be financially viable enough to support you fully to be successful, but I can understand someone wanting to appear that way.

      As a customer, I agree, but if she had designs on securing business funding, I can see how the appearance of profitable sustainability would matter. Not that it changes my mind about any of this.

      Reply ↓
    2. carrot cake*

      “I didn’t see any proof of that, and I didn’t see that as the primary motivator.”

      ——

      Really? I sure do.

      Reply ↓
  10. Falling Diphthong*

    Nobody she deals with via her current business (can know) she would be also working for us, as they had to be under the impression that she is at her online job and available to them at all times.

    No.

    And yeah, the way for her to pull that off is for her to in fact be 100% available to them at all times.

    (I was going to say she’s a people pleaser who can’t say no, but that only applies to her family and existing customers from the job that doesn’t pay her enough. It doesn’t apply to OP or the potential new job.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Pam Adams*

      My interpretation of this story is that the business was somewhat illegal- something like Walter White looking for a new teaching job while still running his drug trade,

      Reply ↓
    3. bamcheeks*

      I think it’s some kind of service provision for clients who expect a high level of emotional management (super wealthy people, or actors/artists/musicians) and she has to maintain the fiction that she’s super available. There have been a few posts or comments on here by people working in those kind of fields, and I don’t think they’re that weird!

      Reply ↓
  12. Friday Hopeful*

    It is entirely possible she is making up the family business to fill a ten year gap in her resume, and tried to come up with something plausible sounding as to why you can’t call them.

    Reply ↓
    1. Paint N Drip*

      OP commented in the original that they found the applicant’s business through research, and the applicant was right there on the website. I don’t think they’re trying to hide behind a fake 10-yr business, I think they’re trying to hide the job from the business patrons for optics

      Reply ↓
      2. linger*

        From elsewhere in thread, probably OverEmployment (multiple jobs, preferably in same hours). But yeah, the abbreviation is ambiguous; it more commonly reads as Overseas Experience.

        Reply ↓
  14. one of the many librarians*

    What I’d like to be able to ask the candidate: It sounds like you’re asking me to change normal hiring practices in order to deceive your current employer. How can I believe you won’t deceive my company if it’s in your interest?

    Reply ↓
  15. duinath*

    Oooh intrigue. …No thank you. What a headache.

    We can’t know for sure what was behind this, speculate though we might, but on its face this is a hard no for me, regardless of the motivation.

    I want to work in secret: no.

    I can’t give you access to anyone who could tell you what I’m like to work with: no.

    I won’t tell you the name of where I’m working right now: no. Like, just leave it off entirely at that point? Family business? No.

    Reply ↓
  16. Marzipan Shepherdess*

    This already sounds sketchy as all get-out, but at least you dodged a bullet by not hiring her. Fortunately, she gave herself away with her blithe statements about concealing her employment with you from her current employer; if she lies to them, she’d have lied to you.

    “When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.”

    Reply ↓
  17. pagooey*

    For some reason my mind immediately went to the TV series “The Americans,” where Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys run a quiet little early 80s travel agency outside of DC and raise their kids in the ‘burbs, when they’re not BUGGING THE FBI AND/OR SEXING AND/OR MURDERING HAPLESS RUBE INFORMANTS WHILE WEARING AN INFINITE VARIETY OF WIGS BECAUSE THEY’RE SOVIET SPIES!!1! Seriously, the disguise closet and hidden transmission room is in the basement, behind the dryer. Recommended, if you haven’t seen it!

    Anyway, this is what I will choose to believe was going on with this lady, ever more.

    Reply ↓
    1. Susie and Elaine Problem*

      Or maybe she’s a superhero. “Please don’t tell Tony Stark that I am tired of fighting intergalactic terror and want to transition into market analysis.”

      Reply ↓
  18. learnedthehardway*

    Hmmm… I am going with an explanation of “planning to work 2 roles” – either because the person is self-employed and plans to stay that way (but doesn’t want clients to know they have taken on a full-time position), or they work for a family business (and don’t want anyone to know they are escaping).

    If there was a serious reason – eg. the person was leaving an abusive family business and needed to keep things confidential – they should have told you that they work for a highly dysfunctional family business and would be very uncomfortable providing a reference from their spouse or other family member. That would be understandable, and you might have been able to move forward with them, on the basis that a family member isn’t generally a valid reference, anyway.

    But that’s not the way this is coming across. The employee’s statements all be say they’re planning to double dip.

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  19. Nah*

    Maybe it’s just the people I know, but I do really worry with the wording about being out of the working world for a decade, currently working solely for “The Family Business” and being seemingly terrified of literally ANYONE finding out through even the smallest grapevine, that this was a woman desperately trying to make money to escape an abusive situation. Really, really hoping it was just someone “quirky” that wasn’t quite sure of working-norms.

    Reply ↓
    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Yeah, my first thought was that this had some real Dale Gribble energy, and my second thought was that this sounds much more like “I am trying to escape from a cult and need some money to do that”.

      Reply ↓
  20. auntie tank*

    I feel like I know everything I need to know about her work ethic and attitude, to make an informed hiring decision without any references.

    Reply ↓
  21. CubeFarmer*

    She’s trying to have two jobs at once. Like she’s supposed to be available online to her clients when she’ll also be working for you, so she doesn’t want anyone to know what she’s doing with LW.

    Reply ↓
  22. FSU*

    I used to work for a DV shelter, so my first thought was that she needs an income her abusive family doesn’t know about in order to help her eventually leave that situation. Of course it would need to be secret, and her family would have to think that all her attention is focused on them and their business. It wouldn’t be safe for them to find out the truth.

    Reply ↓
  23. tabloidtained*

    Usually, people who want to hold two jobs at once are careful not to disclose that to either of their employers. I just can’t see that being the motivation here…

    Reply ↓
  24. Safely Retired*

    Hiring her would obviously be a mistake, but think of the interesting story you might (would?) be missing if she had been hired. 8-)

    Reply ↓
  25. DivergentStitches*

    Another possibility is the “family business” is also run by her husband, and she’s trying to leave him and needs to save money for that and keep it quiet.

    Reply ↓
  26. Marlo*

    Hmmm.. when a guy who was working two $200k jobs at once wrote in, it was considered an interesting question of ethics. This person screwed up by mentioning one job to the other – first rule of double dipping is you keep quiet!

    Reply ↓
  27. TheBunny*

    I agree with Alison not to hire her.

    But as I was reading I kept wondering if she sees issues with the family business but can’t be transparent with them as they won’t handle it well (think Succession but on a much smaller scale) so was hoping to find a new, non family related job just in case the family one crashes and burns.

    I could be totally off base, and she handled it really badly, but that was what I kept thinking.

    Reply ↓
  29. restingbutchface*

    Oh, come on. She’s obviously an assassin for hire. No references, works for The Family? Trained. Assassin.

    The cost of living has hit all professional industries, you know. Lot of people need another income stream.

    (I am devastated we will never know the real answer to this enigma.)

    Reply ↓

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