my boss hates that I blush a lot, I messed up a major project as my internship ended, and more

by Alison Green on November 22, 2024

It’s four answers to four questions. Here we go…

1. My boss hates that I blush a lot

I have always been a chronic blusher. Whatever you’re thinking when you read that, it’s way more. I blush at everything. Someone looks at me — I turn red. I think about something slightly awkward that happened to me — I blush. As a teen, my parents even took me to doctors for it. It turns out I have a condition called idiopathic craniofacial erythema, which is basically a fancy name for saying my blush reaction is crazy over-primed. I tried CBT. I tried regular talk therapy. I even tried medication. No go. There is a surgery option but it’s scary and I’m not interested in doing it.

When I realized this is never going to change, I changed course and decided not to let it stop me. I’d always wanted to be more outgoing but the awkward feeling of knowing I was going to keep blushing made me stop myself. But I decided not to let it stop me anymore from doing what I want to do, and I started approaching people, striking up conversations, asking strangers for directions — all the sort of regular things I’d always held back from. People who know me now say I have a lot of social grace and I’m a pleasant, fun, outgoing person, even though I still turn beet red at the drop of a hat.

Where this meets work: I have a wonderful job that I love. The issue is that it’s client-facing, and about a year ago I got a new manager, Marie. From the beginning Marie took issue with my blushing. She could never get comfortable around me, I guess because she thought my blushing when she spoke to me meant I wasn’t comfortable with her? Coworkers have told me several times that she’s complained aloud about “how we let someone so shy have such a high-level client-facing position” and how the clients must be so uncomfortable. I am not shy. I do my job well, and I’ve gotten great feedback from my clients, even if it took some of them a bit of time to get comfortable with me in the beginning. My strategy has always been to act as if the blushing is not happening, and most people take that cue from me after a short while. My friends have told me that after getting to know me they no longer notice that I blush so much.

Marie has recently escalated her complaints and has started bringing them directly to me, almost every day. She’s told me that as a customer-facing employee I need to work on my presentation and interpersonal skills, and kept reiterating that she’s not happy with the way I present myself. I’ve asked my colleagues and they all agree I’m very good at what I do and the clients are very happy with me, and that’s the feedback I’ve gotten from clients too.

What can I do? I’m worried Marie is going to try let me go. She recently gave me a very poor performance review, even though I hit all my work goals and even surpassed many of them, and she’s started speaking about a PIP. Is this ADA-level stuff? I’ve never sought accommodations from HR because this diagnosis is a bit iffy — many doctors claim there’s no such condition and it’s misdiagnosed anxiety (which I, of course, think is nonsense). We don’t have great HR, but I’ve never had to defend myself at work this way before.

Talk to HR ASAP and explain what’s going on. Make sure to include everything Marie is doing — hassling you about it near daily, giving you a poor evaluation despite your performance and now talking about a PIP, and complaining to colleagues about you.

Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, this probably doesn’t qualify as a protected disability, but (a) some states have laws that go beyond the ADA and (b) most employers still don’t want managers discriminating against good employees based on a minor medical condition that doesn’t impact their work, regardless of whether it’s ADA-level. (Also, if your manager regards you as having a disability, like anxiety, you’d actually be covered — because the law protects people perceived as having disabilities too.)

When you talk to HR, use the wording, “I am concerned I’m being penalized for a medical condition and that my job may be at risk, despite my work results.”

2. I messed up a major project at the end of my internship

I was a student intern at a local media organization, and my term ended a few months ago. I was very lucky to have this position, and my coworkers were incredibly kind and gave me a lovely farewell.

Here is my issue: I had a deadline for a project I was working on for a couple months, and I submitted it on my very last day of work. I fumbled in the most massively horrifying way when I uploaded the materials to our shared cloud database and deleted them off my personal device as they took up a lot of space. Big mistake: the files I submitted did not get fully uploaded and could not be recovered, and I’ve since been in a scramble to redo them with only the raw footage left (some of which was also deleted). This is an objectively easy but somewhat labor intensive task, made worse by the fact that I myself got very sick for almost the entire month after my position ended, and as soon as I recovered, I had to relocate to take care of a sick family member.

My supervisor has since reached out to me a few times about the state of the work, and I gave a brief explanation and assured her I would be able to get it done, but I keep dropping the ball. In the last few months my region has experienced severe weather that caused extensive damage to my house, and my family member has had a major health crisis. I am only now in a position where I can get this done — nearly six months after it was initially due and only a few weeks before it needs to be shared. At this point, my supervisor could have very well gotten someone else to do it, I wouldn’t know because I’ve been to scared to reach out!

I will be uploading the completed materials by the end of the week, but I owe my supervisor an apology for my very poor communication and the egregious delay. I have already apologized a couple times, but it doesn’t really mean much if I continued to miss the deadlines I set for myself. How do I explain the situation and my appreciation for my supervisor’s patience without making it sound like a string of excuses? It’s been an awful few months and I’m really hoping to put this behind me without entirely ruining my professional reputation.

Oh no, I’m sorry — this is a perfect storm of problems that were largely out of your control. The original upload mistake was yours, yes, but everything that happened after that to compound it wasn’t.

All you can do is to apologize and explain what happened. For example: “I want to reiterate how terribly sorry I am about this. I should have confirmed that the original upload had gone through before removing the files from my device. Normally I would have been able to fix that fairly quickly, but I’ve had a string of difficult external events since then (a lengthy illness, a seriously ill family member, a relocation, and then severe housing damage from the hurricane). I say that not to excuse the delay, but to explain the context. I really valued my internship and everyone I worked with, and I’m mortified to have had this happen.”

That’s all you can do! If they knew you to be a reasonably conscientious person during your internship, this should do a lot to take responsibility and put it in context.

For what it’s worth, I’m not thrilled about them expecting all of this additional — presumably unpaid — work from you after your internship ended. I completely get why you’re doing it — you don’t want to leave them with a bad impression after the work you put in — and on their end they may not realize how much they’re asking of you (especially if they think the files are easily reconstructed)  … but I also don’t want you to go forward thinking it’s normal to have to fix mistakes after you’re no longer at a job. This was an unusual situation, made worse in ways that normally won’t happen.

3. I was told the salary range was flexible, but apparently it’s not

I was contacted to apply for a position at a company where I have many pre-existing contacts. The person who would be my boss set up an informal conversation about the role, during which we discussed the listed starting salary; I was told it was flexible. I asked how flexible, and was honest that it would be a significant pay cut — and was given the full salary range. I conveyed that my current salary is near the top of their range, and I would not be interested in taking a pay cut. I was again assured flexibility.

With that information, I decided to apply, and was ultimately made a verbal offer by the same person. They said HR would look at the job description, my qualifications, and the salary range and make a formal offer. To my surprise, I was offered exactly the starting salary, despite having significantly more experience than the minimum qualifications and despite the previous conversation.

When I met with HR to negotiate, they seemed surprised, confused, and maybe a little annoyed. They said everyone in this tier of positions starts at this salary, and what I was asking for was much more than everyone else made and it wouldn’t be fair. They said they’d try to get a little higher and would consult with the CEO, but I haven’t heard anything since.

I’m feeling a mix of irritation, disappointment, and self-consciousness. I’ve never negotiated before and feel like I flubbed it. I get the feeling HR thinks I pulled one over on them, but had I known this wasn’t a “starting” salary, but rather the salary, I’d have never applied and wasted my own time, let alone theirs. What did I do wrong here? And, how can I mend my reputation with my contacts at this company?

It’s not you who needs to mend your reputation with them, it’s them with you. They invited you to apply for a job under apparently false pretenses and wasted your time. That probably wasn’t intentional; it sounds like a miscommunication or misunderstanding between the hiring manager and HR, but it’s still what happened.

Get in touch with the manager who you originally talked with about salary and explain what happened: “As you know, we had talked about salary early on and I’d explained that I’d need to be offered near the top of the range since I can’t take a pay cut. HR offered me the very bottom of the range and seemed surprised that I had expected anything else. Is this something you’re able to intervene on? I can’t accept the salary being offered, and I wouldn’t have applied without our conversation about it initially.”

It’s possible the hiring manager can intervene and get this changed; it’s also possible that they can’t. But this is the right next move, both in the negotiation itself / to figure out if this job is still a real possibility for you or not, and in terms of making sure they’re clear on what happened.

But you didn’t mess up. They did.

4. Could questions about low-performers be explained by the person working a second job?

As an avid AAM reader for many years, I’ve wondered in the last two years if some of the questions about managing remote staff who are not making deadlines, under-responsive, or not keeping their cameras on during meetings are really about staff who are holding down multiple full-time jobs. Do you ever consider in your responses that the underperforming employee might actually be “over-employed” and that’s the reason for the performance issues and subterfuge?

The beauty of those situations is that it doesn’t really matter, because the answer for the manager is still the same: lay out clear the expectations the person isn’t meeting and what needs to change, and then hold them to that. If someone isn’t meeting deadlines or isn’t responsive enough, regardless of the cause, their manager needs to address those things forthrightly, and with a relatively short timeline for improvement. More here:

is there a way to find out if someone secretly has two full-time jobs?

Good managers should always be keeping an eye out for problems, giving feedback, and being direct about problems. In a lot of these “is this employee working a second full-time job?” cases, the root of the issue is that the manager isn’t paying enough attention or is being too passive.

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{ 367 comments }

{ 367 comments… read them below }

  1. Daria grace*

    #4 while it is of course possible a struggling employee is working a second job it’s something a manager should probably be hesitant to raise with them without evidence as it’s an accusation about their honesty and integrity whereas just bringing up that they seem to be struggling with the requirements of WFH is not

    1. Anonys*

      100% If I was struggling with meeting expectations and my manager accused me of something like that, I would think “wow my manger is really suspicious of me, even if I improve my performance, I will probably never have very good standing with him. Better to focus on job searching”

    2. Learn ALL the things*

      I feel like it goes back to the commenting rule of “does it change the advice you’d give to the letter writer?” In this case, I think it doesn’t. You have a poor work performer, and regardless of the reason, the steps you’d take to deal with it are the same.

    3. Antilles*

      I agree. It’s possible your employee is working two jobs, but unless you’ve got some specific reason to believe that’s the case, it’s much more likely that the employee is just struggling in a more vanilla/boring way.
      It just might not feel like that if you read social media or websites, because “my WFH employee was secretly working three jobs!” grabs eyeballs and goes viral in a way that a garden-variety “she’s just slow at her job” does not.

      1. Guacamole Bob*

        Someone might be slow at their job, struggling with a health issue, watching soap operas during the day, doing child care when they should be working, working on a side hustle, ditching work to go to the gym at 10 a.m. every day, not suited for the social isolation of WFH and not concentrating well, or any of a million other things. Working a full-time second job is pretty low on the list of likely explanations.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          They might be three armadillos in a trench coat! They might be an alien running an experiment on humanity! They might be your CEO on some extreme undercover-boss reality show where they pretend to be an underperforming low-level employee for 9 months and will give you a new car when you finally let them go!

          It’s fun to speculate, but I think the manager should do the same thing regardless: if you manage well, you can deal with poor performers without figuring out the exact reason why they’re performing poorly.

          (If there’s concrete evidence of unethical (but not illegal) behavior like working multiple jobs against policy, you can fire them more quickly and give a poor reference, but there’s still not much more an employer should do.)

          1. too many dogs*

            I’m going to have to take the rest of the day off because I now can’t get the picture of three armadillos in a trench coat out of my head (Three armadillos in a trench coat, walking down the street, swinging their tails and stomping their feet…)

    4. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

      People’s tendency to not want to accuse anyone of anything without evidence is one of the things the overemployed prey on. “Don’t skip the PIP” – keep collecting a paycheck while the bureaucratic gears grind their way towards your inevitable firing.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        What’s the alternative, suspect everyone who is unavailable for parts of the workday of secretly working a second job? Yeah, you might catch some scammers, but you’re also going to fire a lot of people who forgot to send an email before taking their kid to urgent care for vomiting, or who are trying to flex their time around “legitimate” commitments, or who just like taking a walk every day at 2pm.

        The thing about sophisticated scammers is that they exploit weaknesses in trust-based systems like employment, dating, etc. The solution isn’t to take all trust out of the system and take away WFH for everyone just to punish a few scammers.

        1. Lissa*

          None of the things you are describing would be considered red flags by a reasonable manager. The over employed have a pattern of consistently under delivering, and not being available for extended periods of the work day, regularly missing out on deadlines, etc. Some things are just blatantly obvious, like checking application logs and seeing that the employee has logged in only once to an application they should be using every day, or them accidentally sharing their screen and they are using a software the company doesn’t use (and I’m quoting real examples here).

      2. Lydia*

        This is the same approach that a lot of states took to drug testing people on benefits, and it backfired spectacularly. Instead of catching a bunch of people doing drugs, they spent a lot of taxpayer money, caught very few people, and the programs were a net loss. The good people you would lose by assuming low performers were working second jobs far outweighs the number of people actually working second jobs. Despite media writing a lot of articles about people working two jobs from home, there really aren’t that many of them.

      3. Not The Earliest Bird*

        The Reddit OE forum was eyeopening and made me realize that those people were complete bs’ers, or were really that crooked.

    5. Nesprin*

      It could be a second job.
      It could be a sick parent or kid.
      It could be employee health stuff.
      It could be just not a great employee.
      It could be that the current project is boring or terrible.
      It could be that a coworker is terrible.

      In all cases, the correct solution is to manage.

    6. Kyrielle*

      Yup. And it could be something else eating up their time, such as a family health crisis, an ongoing caregiver role, or something else (either something that changed or has always been there). Having those isn’t an integrity issue the way a second job is, but it still doesn’t get the business what they need. Addressing the underlying issue lets you handle that without accusing them of something they may well not be doing.

      If your top performer is moonlighting as a Starbucks barista for the good health insurance, and is still your top performer, you don’t really care about the barista gig. If your lowest performer is doing the same thing, you still don’t actually care about the barista gig, but you do need their work for you to come up to an acceptable level. (Obviously a job at a competitor is a different thing, but this question isn’t about someone known to be working a second job at a competitor, just someone not performing well enough.)

  2. Jessica*

    LW3, even in the unlikely event that you do manage to get an acceptable offer out of this, I’d think very carefully before taking it. Are you going to find yourself in a situation where you can’t get a raise for years because you’re so overpaid relative to peers, or where people resent you right off the bat?

      1. AngryOctopus*

        Yes, HR citing that they think it’s “not fair” to give someone with a significant amount of experience the high side of the salary band does not speak well to the possibility of a future raise. I imagine they will block anything by citing that OP is “already making more than everyone”. Not a good situation to start with.

        1. MassMatt*

          Yes, HR here seems to think salary should be based on tenure there rather than skills or experience.

    3. DJ Abbott*

      I was thinking this too. OP might be better off staying in their current job.
      I also have doubts about the manager who initiated this and promised the high salary. Is that person competent in dealing with these things? Do they have realistic expectations of work or things in general, or do they believe what they want to believe and proceed to do things that don’t work out? Is this someone who would be good to work for?

      1. Learn ALL the things*

        I agree with this. Managers who over-promise on things they can’t deliver aren’t great to work with. Option 1 is that the manager didn’t bother to check with HR before they promised flexibility on the salary, which doesn’t really bode well for the future. I’ve had managers who just assume they can work things out without checking first to see if it’s actually possible, and it was an exercise in frustration.

        And then there’s Option 2, that the manager knew the salary wasn’t that flexible and promised it anyway in hopes that LW would be too attached by the idea of the job to turn it down over a low salary, which is worse.

        Neither of these hypothetical options is a boss you’d want to work for.

        1. AngryOctopus*

          Yep. Only possibly acceptable if they had planned on hiring someone with little to no experience at the bottom of the range, but then OP came along and the manager thought it would be good to have someone with a lot of experience. But then it’s on the manager to work out with HR that they’d actually be hiring someone with more experience and needed to meet that salary requirement.

      2. Artemesia*

        I worked for a boss like this and had to clean up his messes. He would make big promises that he could not deliver on and then I’d have to explain that the salary or perks they were promised were not possible within the organization. He was an important rain maker and did just fine — but once he had promised someone at the bottom of the heap something to get them on board, he didn’t concern himself with the fall out. The usual scenario was that he recruited an ‘important’ person by promising the spouse a position and told that spouse what he could offer and what perks they would have — all of which were impossible to obtain. The spouse was stuck; they might have taken the position if it were honestly presented – or not — but now they were stuck and angry. And my problem.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          I worked at an entire software company that ran like this. The salespeople would promise the software could already do whatever it took to make the sale, and there was a big presentation where everyone applauded them. Then it was months of mandated overtime while we scrambled to change the software so it could actually do what was promised. The new customer was pissed that they’d been mislead and was rarely satisfied by whatever we’d patched together out of duct tape and silly string on those late nights, but it was too late for them to back out.

          Meanwhile the salespeople went on to new targets and blithely promised them whatever they wanted.

          1. Dog momma*

            Yep I worked in healthcare insurance & after a reorg & early retirement offered to LT employees( that promised the moon and delivered), they hired some hotshot senior manager to improve our mandatory letters sent to providers and members. We already knew how to type them up & the language to use BUT this person got them to buy in ” new & improved software & the staff using it will have” input”. Well, 2 questions by senior staff & the vendor was totally pizzed off. Cause it was a multi million dollar purchase. It was very obvious. Said it was his way or the highway. We weren’t allowed to tweak it although he said that ability was there. There was valid concerns about quality issues and compliance with this software. The company bought it anyway. And the senior manager got their way. Then they started laying key people off, with no warning. After they finally got sacked after a fairly short time, I was on the phone with a provider and their name came up in conversation. Omg, said the woman on the phone with me, that manager was a nightmare. We had a party when they left. Wondered where they ended up, feel sorry for you all. So its not just salespeople. and this was yrs ago

      3. Maglev to Crazytown*

        For me, it depends on how much th manager knows about what went out in the offer. I had a friend this happened to, and when they declined the job, the hiring manager immediately contacted them, baffled. When my friend explained he couldn’t take the pay cut, the manager was perplexed, and didn’t realize what HR had done. The manager went to bat over it immediately, and a revised offer was issued the next day, and the now-boss has a clearly defined development plan and accompanying raises in place to keep him happy and progressing.

    4. Antilles*

      This is where my mind went too: If they have a normal range for this position and you’re starting at the very top of it, you might have trouble getting raises because you’re already the highest paid Project Designer II in the company.

    5. WellRed*

      Yeah, I’d probably walk away from this. OP they kept telling you the salary (too low), then kept saying it’s flexible (weird) so and then you kept proceeding. Cut your losses.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I would too. Unless he turns out to have a very good excuse-which is very unlikely-I would never trust this boss.

    6. ScottW*

      I commented below that I have a friend who successfully negotiated their pay to near the top of the band. I asked him about this. His response was that he didn’t care if he didn’t get raises for a bit because he really wanted the experience of working at this particular place (and probably the poteential networking and having this place on his resume). The way he’s getting around resentment is by throwing himself into the job and working his butt off. Since his last position was sort of limited, I think he did the right thing.

      1. Antilles*

        That certainly can be the right thing, if you have a clear reason to accept that you might be limited on salary but other perks in exchange. Similar to how people will take a role with a lower initial salary if it has less stress or excellent benefits or allows full WFH or is in an industry you want a foot-in-the-door or etc. All perfectly legitimate choices.

        That said, OP’s letter is framed as “I would not accept a pay cut” and “I wouldn’t have wasted my time if I’d known this was the salary”, so in OP’s case, it seems unlikely that there’s anything sufficiently great about the company to justify accepting a role with no upward salary mobility.

        1. ScottW*

          Ah. Good point about the OP’s not wanting a pay cut. I think my friend *would* have taken the low-ball salary but he sure didn’t want to. He still took a cut but it was more like 5-10 % (kind of made up for my new perks) instead of the 30 % cut they originally wanted him to take.

      2. Artemesia*

        And he might well decide to do it for a couple of years and then job search when those future raises don’t come through.

        It sounds like the OP would be in an unpleasant situation if they did get the money they want. Who needs that? Keep looking.

        1. ScottW*

          Yeah, that’s what he said. He figured if he didn’t get any more raises or working conditions otherwise weren’t great he could just move on, but with the added experience and nicer resume.

    7. Smithy*

      All of this.

      I was once in a situation where I was interviewing at two places, had met who my supervisor would be before at one place so was patiently going through a kind of wonky HR process. At this point, a second place reaches out to me via a recruiter and during the first interview they shared a starting salary that was lower than what I was currently making. I told them as much, said we were too far apart and wished them well. I had gotten along really well with their HR person, and she ultimately came back to me to say that salary would not be a problem and they really wanted to continue with me.

      Lesson learned for later…..but I ultimately went through their whole process, while the process at the first place was just odd. Not bad, but a lot more feeling like I wasn’t vibing. And then every interview with place two felt amazing. Finally get an offer from place two, where the interview process had started after place one. The salary they offered was exactly what I was currently making. I was utterly shocked, mad at myself for not asking sooner and more than that felt super bamboozled. I declined without even negotiating and basically said what I did after the very first interview.

      Ultimately things worked at with place one and the wonky HR stuff was more quirk based than major flags. But feeling misled about salary (as opposed to disappointed or underwhelmed) really soured the experience.

  3. fpg*

    I’m Asian, and the blushing problem reminds me of some friends who get “The Asian Flush”. So for some people, one sip of alcohol turns them red. People who don’t understand this will obnoxiously say “You’re soooo drunk!” to the person, after seeing the red shade. And I’m talking about – a sip. No advice, just commiserating here.

        1. Lucifer*

          And it’s super fun! (/s). I get some kind of histamine reaction to wine and beer and my doctor was like, “if you don’t drink that often then yeah, your body will have a reaction the few times you do drink. So I can’t actually recommend that you just drink more.” (I stick to hard seltzers and cocktails because for some reason, the reaction isn’t as severe or fast).

          But yeah, I would recommend that the LW run this by an employment lawyer or accommodations lawyer in their state too, if possible, before going to HR. Just to make sure they have all their ducks in a row. Because seriously WTF Marie

          1. Blue Pen*

            Oh, interesting! I never thought about that before. My body has a weird histamine reaction—I’ll break out into hives when I’m running hot, e.g., exercising, taking a shower, etc. Taking Zyrtec on a daily basis is the only thing that keeps it in check. I’m now wondering if the reaction also comes about after drinking alcohol (which I don’t do much).

            1. Blarg*

              Same! Zyrtec daily for probably 15 years now and it helps so much. Nothing quite like being allergic to your own sweat. (Exercise induced urticaria, it is called). When I first started making out with people, I would flush scarlet red, which meant there was NO hiding what I’d been up to from my parents. So annoying. That did subside as I got older and stopped with the zyrtec.

              1. A Significant Tree*

                Off-topic but thank you for the parenthetical! My teenager might have this condition and I need to look into it.

                1. Properlike*

                  My teen also has this. “Idiopathic hives.” Mega antihistamines on the daily. There is a new drug that is supposed to be extremely effective for allergies like this, but forgot what it was since the OTC treatment has been working (knock wood.)

                  On topic: I have same histamine reaction/enzyme deficiency with alcohol.

              2. Marshmallow*

                I also get hives at the drop of a hat and found Zyrtec to be about the only thing that keeps it in check. I’ve had 2 ER visits in the last couple years over it and now also have an epipen which I hope to never have to use!

              3. Freya*

                Fun fact: there’s also a thing where water on your skin makes you itch, called aquagenic pruritus. I have to dry off ASAP after a shower, because it itches, although antihistamines make it less bad (and I’m not that badly affected in any case – some people are so badly affected that showering is painful, as compared to my mere hatred of water fights).

      2. D*

        I call it an allergy because that’s easier to explain, but it’s not. It’s not an immune response like an allergy is. It’s a mutation in the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme that breaks alcohol down into acetaldehyde (the chemical that causes hangovers) really quickly.

        2. Alcohol and its discontents*

          I wonder if that’s what I have. When I was in a rather heavy-drinking friend group, I found that after one drink I would have terrible back and shoulder muscle aches and also was intensely sleepy. I slept through so many parties (but no hangover — I’d already had it). Fortunately I never had to do work-related lunches or dinners where people were drinking. Could that sensitivity be related to this mutation?

    2. stratospherica*

      Haha, I’m white and living in an East Asian country, and I used to be shy and blush a lot whenever attention was focused on me. People would ask if I’ve been drinking and I had to tell them that no, my face doesn’t do that, I am just very embarrassed right now!

    3. Wayward Sun*

      My wife isn’t Asian, but alcohol sometimes gives her a blotchy blush. It’s oddly inconsistent; sometimes just one drink will do it, other times she can drink quite a bit and not have it happen at all.

      1. Anon for this*

        Oh yes, that sounds familiar.
        In my case it’s a histamine reaction when it happens and entirely depends on the histamine content of the drink or food I’ve consumed. I’m managing very well by now, but I’m not going to drink red wine for example as too much histamine also messes with my sleep quality.
        Re. blushing, I’ve also taken LW’s approach and thankfully most people are gracious about it.

      2. Dawbs*

        I do that inconsistently too.

        But i also just turn red and splotchy some days (today! since before i got out of bed) for no reason (possibly hormone related- it started by the time i was a teen). One doc says i probably have a mast cell activation disorder; magnesium supplements help (if they don’t cause other issues)

          2. The Rural Juror*

            I get hot ears! Mine will turn bright red and be hot to touch. It’s so uncomfortable. But I’d rather have it there than my cheeks (I’m fair skinned and when my cheeks turn red it looks like I’ve been crying, not blushing).

      3. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Me too, it’s common with Irish folks as well (not typically as sensitive as people with Asian genetics but there’s always a spectrum)

        1. RLC*

          Scots-Irish & Danish heritage here, and such severe facial redness at times that I was accused by certain colleagues of being unfit to work based on absurd assumptions. “No, I’m not ill and no I haven’t been drinking alcohol, this is just what my face does.”

          1. Legalien*

            Oh my gosh, you’re not kidding about the Scots-Irish & Danish heritage causing severe facial redness/blushing! I have the same heritage (plus English), and not only do I have enough natural red in my face that I’ve never needed to wear blush and blush ridiculously easily, but I’ve been told I almost turn purple if whatever caused me to blush goes on for a bit. My friends in high school and college used to see how red/purple they could make me because of how vivid my blush was!

      4. Jessastory*

        it might be a reaction to sulfur if she gets it more commonly after drinking wine. Wine and certain drying processes for fruit use sulfur. It triggers my mom’s asthma.

    4. Anon for This*

      I had not heard of the Asian Flush, but I (Irish/German heritage) have the same issue. Ditto on the commiseration!

    5. Thinking*

      Thanks for this info. I didn’t know. Not that I go around accusing people of being drunk, but learning about different humans is fascinating and sometimes useful. Ya never know.

    6. Blue Pen*

      Yes! I don’t experience chronic blushing, but I am prone to it—it’s a pain, but there’s nothing I can do about it.

    7. Not on board*

      Not Asian, but I too, sometimes get very red when I have certain alcoholic beverages – and being very pale, it’s VERY noticeable. Not much to be done about it – but I honestly would never comment on someone else getting flushed unless it appeared that something was wrong.

    8. Inkognyto*

      “Why did we get one of our best people go?”

      “I didn’t like the way her faced changed color”

      If put like that it seems silly, and that’s the issue. it is silly

    9. D*

      Ugh, I’ve had so many people tell me that I’m “imagining it” or “working myself up” because, apparently, they don’t trust my own account of my own life experiences, nor do they trust the explanation I’ve gotten from my doctor, nor do they know how to google, apparently.

    10. Rudolph the Rosacea Reindeer*

      Rosacea suffer here, and a) my face is always red – at least my nose, and b) alcohol certainly makes it worse, but c) NO, I AM NOT AN ALCOHOLIC!! In fact, I rarely drink any alcohol, because it makes my rosacea worse.

      Honestly, people who make assumptions like this enrage me.

      The OP should DEFINITELY go to HR and to their grandboss after that, about this issue Marie has with their blushing.

    11. Artemesia*

      In the OP’s case, I would just have a quick explanation when meeting someone new noting that it is a minor medical condition, happens all the time and doesn’t mean anything except it is embarrassing.

      I would also go to HR and stress that this is a medical condition and that the supervisor is punishing you for it. Even if it doesn’t rise to ADA level (and it might), those are magic words in HR.

      1. Properlike*

        May want to also describe it as “flushing” rather than “blushing.”

        Can you imagine how this would play if the OP were perimenopausal? Let’s add ageism to the medical discrimination.

    13. SKBM*

      I learned from an Asian guy I knew in college that taking a heartburn pill prior to drinking reduces/fixes the “Asian Flush” issue.

    14. pocket microscope*

      Yeah same, one sip and my face is on fire. I’m the only white person in my social circle who gets this, no idea why. We call it my Caucasian Glow.

  4. Astor*

    For LW#1, would it be comfortable/reasonable for you to describe this as “my face turns red” instead of blushing? Since it’s dissociated from your behaviour, and they should comment only your behaviour, I think it might make sense to stay away from the word that has the additional implications that blushing has.

    Good luck! I’m so sorry your new boss cannot see past the colour of your face and is assigning so much judgement it.

    1. Zombeyonce*

      I really like this reframing; it’s a great way to remove the stigma and classify it as a medical issue rather than an emotional one.

      1. Spero*

        I think she could even say ‘my manager seems uncomfortable with the color of my skin at certain times of day. It can be more red-toned due to a medical condition, but the reaction isn’t dangerous and doesn’t signal the need for any intervention, so it’s never impacted my work. I’m unclear why manager feels that my skin tone influences my work ability but it clearly is affecting her treatment of me.

        1. Themboistic*

          Oooooooo I *really* disagree with this- it’s intentionally using language that suggests a racial issue, which… bleh. What the LW wrote in about has nothing to do with race, and using language that suggests that will undercut them- HR will quickly realize that there’s nothing to do with race here, and wonder why the choice was made to use that language.

          1. Properlike*

            It’s not about race. She’s literally talking about the color of her skin turning red, which is exactly what’s happening and what the manager has a problem with. It’s bananabats, but certainly the most accurate description.

            It is uncontrollable, biological, and does not affect her job performance. In that way, the same as someone who’s experiencing racial discrimination, but the OP is not claiming racial discrimination, nor is she claiming that she is a different race when it happens.

            1. Joron Twiner*

              “the color of my skin” is a phrase that means race in most contexts. Using this phrase with HR will cause a major miscommunication that could harm OP’s credibility. HR is going to talk with OP’s boss about how racist they are, and when the game of telephone is resolved, OP is going to seem unreasonable and unbelievable.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      Yes, I feel like there’s definitely a language issue here. It doesn’t sound like the manager even uses the word “blush” about OP but goes straight to “shy”! I think words like “skin reddening” and “medical condition” and things that put this clearly as a physical reaction, not an emotional one.

      1. duinath*

        Yeah, I would have wanted Marie to specify what, exactly, she wants LW to change (so you could say no, that is a medical condition I have no control over), but at this point it’s absolutely HR time.

        1. Edwina*

          even if it was a situation where you reddened easily for emotional reasons, what, exactly, are you supposed to do to stop it?!

          2. History Nerd*

            Exactly. My face (and neck and chest!) turn red anytime I am feeling a strong emotion – and that’s often! I am never conscious of it happening and only aware of it if I happen to be looking in a mirror while it’s occurring (which is shockingly rare at work). I have no way to control it. The only reason I even know about it is that a therapist noted it once. If my boss started to harass me about it like this, it would make me feel strong emotions more often and make it worse, not better!

            1. duinath*

              See, I’m not saying you can control it, and if this did happen to you (god forbid) I would absolutely advocate you saying it’s not something you have any control over and cannot change.

              I’m bringing the medical aspect up because for LW it is medical and that is *leverage*. It hits just a little harder.

      2. Tau*

        The “shy” thing jumped out at me. I don’t have OP’s situation, but I do have a disability that people like to ascribe to emotional regulation problems – I stutter, and sometimes people jump to the conclusion that stuttering must mean the person is feeling extremely nervous or anxious. This is a huge problem because it results in people assuming something that is plain and simply *not true* and can have extremely damaging outcomes on their perception of you; see the manager jumping straight to PIP territory because she assumes OP has problems with crucial parts of the job. Someone telling me “oh, you seem nervous” when they’re clearly basing it on the stutter is red alert, get rid of that misconception *immediately* territory.

        HR is definitely called for, but I do kind of wonder if OP has ever spelled it out clearly for the manager before? Like: “I have a medical condition that makes the skin on my face turn red much more frequently than most people’s. This happening doesn’t mean anything about my emotional state, and I’d appreciate it if you’d ignore it if it happens.” Or calling out “shy” as a descriptor – “how odd! I don’t think of myself as particularly shy and I’ve never felt I come across that way. What’s giving you the impression that I’m shy?” Personally, I’ve actually developed an “intro” for when I meet new people where I briefly explain that I have a speech disorder and how I’d like them to deal with it, and it helps immeasurably. Possibly overkill for OP in general, but something to think about for future managers.

        1. Dog momma*

          I used to blush all the time, from childhood on, and was always called out on it. and yes I was shy. who wouldn’t be. anyway, it took a I my time but I’d come back with, yes my face is red but I’m not embarrassed, upset etc. Eventually it went away. LW has a different issue but she might try to say something like that. And yes HR STAT. What a horrible manager. I bet most people don’t notice.

          Now when my face ( & chest) turn red, I can blame hot flashes. lol.

          1. Indoor_Kitty*

            Because people calling out your red face always makes it better, right? (sarcasm) Oh, I didn’t know! I’ll stop now!

            1. Yeah...*

              This is an extreme response to one person’s experience as to how they handled a situation.

              I would use other phrasing but I do not know what qualifies for a post not appearing.

              1. Indoor_Kitty*

                Pardon? I was being sarcastic about how being told that I blush a lot isn’t helpful. Having it pointed out to me isn’t a cure because I have no control over it. I’m sorry if my post made you want to swear at me, that was not my intent.

                1. Indoor_Kitty*

                  More clarification because I hate that someone would think that I was being a jerk to Dog Momma – she said people called her out on blushing a lot when she was a kid, and that was what I was responding to.

                2. Elle*

                  FWIW, it’s clear that you weren’t being rude. I think that person was likely just reading a bit too fast.

                3. no worries*

                  Just popping in to say I definitely read this as you’ve just explained, and yours is not the comment that I’d call an extreme response here. Hope you have a great day :)

        2. bearing*

          Oh yes. I have a family member with Tourette’s syndrome, and they have generally found it valuable to mention it ahead of time at jobs, especially when they work with children. Because while a fair number of people think they know what Tourette’s looks like, they are thinking of something much more *obviously a condition* than my relative’s intermittent verbal and motor tics.

          1. All Het Up About It*

            This was my one thought about how the LW might want to handle the situation differently in the future. By bringing it up proactively as “Just FYI – for my entire life my face turns red/flushes easily. If you notice it please don’t worry, everything is fine.” She could also include “I have a medical condition that causes” if she wants, but that’s not necessary.

            Of course, her boss’s behavior is abysmal no matter what, but sometimes putting things out there allows you to set the record straight before people create a story based on their perceptions.

            1. Tau*

              Of course, her boss’s behavior is abysmal no matter what, but sometimes putting things out there allows you to set the record straight before people create a story based on their perceptions.

              Yeah, this is basically why I do my little “btw I have a speech disorder” introductory song and dance all the time. It is *much* easier to tell someone what they ought to be doing and how to react up-front than to have to set them straight later. People can be extremely resistant to the idea that they’ve done something wrong, so at that point you’re often fighting an uphill battle. (This gets about 1000x more extreme if the thing you need from them is somehow tied into their own self-image, like “I am a good person and that means I am not an ass about someone’s medical condition”.) And when it comes to something odd which someone hasn’t encountered before or doesn’t have real experience with, people can *and will* just make up a narrative for it to explain it away and that narrative will often be a lot more negative for you than the truth.

              FWIW, I’ve also found that doing the introductory spiel gets me astonishingly positive reactions on the whole. I think it’s a combination of coming across as confident and in control of myself, nonetheless discussing a “vulnerability” which makes me appear emotionally open, and being the one to “resolve” an uncomfortable moment where they are probably confused and mentally flailing (“wtf is going on with the way she talks, what’s happening? am I just supposed to ignore this or how am I supposed to react to this?”). Whatever the cause, I swear I can often feel the conversation get several degrees warmer after I do this, including in interview settings, and would generally recommend this strategy to people who have something noticeably “odd” about them outside of their control that people might react badly to.

              1. Proud mom*

                Your story reminds me of my daughter. She wears a brace for scoliosis, and typically wears it outside of her clothes because it’s got a pretty pattern on it. A lot of adults assume it’s actually a belt unless they see the straps on her back. But she’s also very open and happy to explain what it is, why she wears it, how it helps, etc. She’s 12. Instead of allowing it to be something she hides, and is ashamed of; she embraces it, calls it her turtle shell, knocks on it, etc. When I was 12, I was the tallest, fattest nerd in the room… and didn’t have a tenth of her strength or poise, even though I was just as outgoing. So many adults have come up to us to compliment her openness and willingness to embrace the brace. Heh.

        3. anotherfan*

          yeah, I think OP’s relationship with her manager is a lost cause and she needs to pivot to damage control. It’s incredibly hard to come back from a manager who just dislikes you for whatever reason and is making your life difficult — personally or professionally — in hopes you’ll just disappear from her life. Abusive bosses exist, and Marie appears to be one.

        4. MigraineMonth*

          OP, would you be comfortable telling people upfront that your face reddens sometimes due to a medical quirk? It sounds like your current strategy is to act as if it doesn’t exist until people get used to it rather than addressing it, and while that’s worked up until now it doesn’t seem to be working any more (particularly with your manager, who seems to genuinely think you’re uncomfortable).

          I hate to advise you to talk about it if you don’t want to, particularly with a manager who’s this hostile already, but at this point I think you need to tell your manager and HR at least in order to protect your job. Your manager seems to think that you’re shy and uncomfortable; is it possible she’d adjust her assumptions if she knew you weren’t actually shy/uncomfortable?

          You mentioned that new clients also seem taken aback by your flushing and take a bit of time to get used to it. Might a brief disclaimer (“my face reddens sometimes, please don’t worry about it”) like Tau does smooth that over?

      3. Funko Pops Day*

        I think even “flush” instead of “blush” would go a long way. Or get super technical– “I have a medical condition that results in involuntary spontaneous vasodilation in my face.”

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Hahaha, I love the idea of using the technical medical term for it. Marie strikes me as the kind of person who would be impressed by that.

          1. MikeM_inMD*

            Marie strikes me as the kind who would insist LW1 is making up a medical condition to hide her shyness.

            1. JustaTech*

              I remember reading an article decades ago (I think in the Annals of Medicine in the New Yorker) about a TV reporter who had this condition. She ended up having surgery to address it, which involves cutting nerves to your head (and has the side effect of increasing how much you sweat in your torso and hands), but even after the surgery was successful ended up pivoting her career to radio journalism.

        2. Flushing*

          I love this even more.

          OP, you do yourself a huge favor if you use more technical/medical terms.
          If your boss continues to refer to it as blushing, you are in an even better position to call her out on it and set the record straight.

            1. metadata minion*

              You could do that, but if I were HR I would wonder why you were trying to make it sound like a racism issue when she’s harassing you about a medical condition and that is also straightforwardly not ok.

            3. katydid*

              that would very much come off as if they were making light of racism, or trying to use the reality of racial discrimination to their own advantage.

        3. Ann O'Nemity*

          “Flushing” sounds associated with medical or health-related contexts, while “blushing” brings to mind an emotional response.

      4. Slow Gin Lizz*

        It’s so weird that Marie thinks OP is shy when it seems like OP is pretty outgoing and does great work in a client-facing role – aka, the opposite of shy. And Marie is a horrible person…does she judge a lot of people on the color of their face and not the content of their character???

        OP, does Marie have a boss you could talk to? Since HR is pretty ineffective, maybe talking to Marie’s boss would be a better option for you. This depends, of course, on how reasonable Marie’s boss is and how comfortable you feel with that person.

        Honestly, Marie should be fired, like, yesterday. I also wonder about your coworkers – do they also have weird run-ins with Marie, or is it just you who she is targeting? She sounds like a terrible manager.

        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          Is HR ineffective? I did not get from the letter that OP has met with HR yet to discuss Marie’s harassment.

        3. toolegittoresign*

          I get maybe thinking it the first few times, but as the LW said, most people just get to know them and realize it’s nothing. This letter reminds me of the letters where managers fixate on someone’s acne or weight as evidence that they have some sort of character flaw. People who think like that are toxic and need to go.

        4. All Het Up About It*

          I also wondered how the co-workers Marie is talking to react when she says things about the LW.

          Like if they say, “What do you mean, LW is great with clients?” or “I don’t find LW to be a shy person at all, where do you get that?”

    3. allathian*

      Yes, I agree. Taking the emotion out of it will hopefully help at least a bit, with HR if not Marie.

      1. Artemesia*

        How about. I feel Marie is harassing me for the color of my skin. (remarks about vasodilation and medical condition)

        1. Insert Clever Name Here*

          Yes, I think what people are saying is that because the word “blush” in English has a very strong association with emotion, generally shyness, LW might consider using a different word to describe her face turning red when she discusses Marie’s harassment with HR.

          What’s interesting is that “blush” and “flush” have very similar meanings but definitely have different connotations, at least to me. Language is weird!

        2. RVA Cat*

          I think “complexion” could be a good word here, as it’s not about race but it is about skin color and medical conditions. But then I’d expect a bully like Marie to say that someone with adult acne is also “unprofessional” and “not polished enough” for how their skin exists.

    4. whistle*

      Good advice. As I was reading the letter I thought of a couple I know who often get red in the face, and I had never thought of it as blushing (or thought of it much at all) because it’s clearly not connected to their emotional state or alcohol, etc.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Yup. I am a very red person, especially when my blood sugar does weird things that I didn’t anticipate. I’m also a very confident public speaker and have been client facing for years. I’m just… red. I do a few things to mitigate it (green makeup on the reddest spots is a fun one, and if I’m presenting and wearing a v-neck sweater, I’ll add a scarf) but ultimately it’s just me. No one has ever said anything. Actually no, that’s not true– years ago, a boss (who happened to be a jackass and didn’t know when to keep his mouth shut) made an oddly snide comment about me being out in the sun and I said, “Nope, I’m just red.” He never mentioned it again.

      1. londonedit*

        I’m very sun-sensitive, and even though I slather myself in SPF50 at the slightest hint of sunshine I do still sometimes go red or get a heat rash if I’m out in warm weather. I’ve totally had the snide ‘Oh, SOMEONE’S been out in the sun’ comments (I still don’t understand why it’s something people want to be snide about, but hey ho) and I do the same as you – ‘Nope, I’m just red’. I also go bright red as soon as I start doing any exercise, so I get a lot of ‘Whoooooa, how many miles did YOU run to get here??’, and I just shrug and say ‘I jogged a mile down the road, this is just what my face does’. Flat delivery, don’t make it any more interesting than they apparently already think it is.

        1. JA*

          Anytime I have a new trainer in my group workout classes I have to assure them they will not witness me dying, I just go red–and then gently run a very short, blunt nail over a part of my forearm, which immediately looks furious and won’t fade for 20 minutes so they can correctly gauge how not-kidding I am.

          1. katydid*

            lol yes, I have grown so sick of people telling me to breathe when I’m exercising. I am breathing, I am very good at breathing! But I’m still going to get beet-red, it is just who I am.

            1. JustaTech*

              This is why I stopped running at lunch – I turn a distressing shade of red if it’s hot out and my sweet boss was *very* concerned that I was dying.
              And everyone else felt the need to comment on both my color and his concern, so it was just easier to run somewhere else.

            2. MissMaple*

              Yeah, same, it gets super old. I have weird blotch skin and some times it turns super red with very little provocation. I am well-aware.

          2. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Just as an FYI, skin-writing can be a symptom of mast cell instability, like MCAS or milder related conditions.

            1. JA*

              eh, just googled and the rest of the symptoms are SO not a thing for me. I’ve been able to do this all my life. Like I said, I just get red!

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Ever do hot yoga? I did for a brief stint– there was a studio within walking distance of our house in our previous city– and I always walked home looking like I had spent two hours in a tanning bed with no SPF. It ain’t easy being red. :)

        3. Sunshine Gremlin*

          I have a scar under my eye, along my cheekbone. I got it 23 years ago and most of the time it’s not noticeable. When I get warm (whether it be from fever, flush, or because I live in the Mojave Desert), it turns bright red, which is met with people asking what happened and if I’m alright.

          It astonishes me how many people think saying “what’s wrong with your face?” is acceptable in any context.

    6. Hyaline*

      Yes, was going to suggest–reframe this as “face turns red” or “flushing” to push it away from the association with embarrassment or discomfort.

    7. Mockingjay*

      Even more blunt: “I’m not shy or uncomfortable. My skin reddens randomly due to an involuntary capillary reaction. This condition does not impede my performance and I have client feedback and metrics showing I do an excellent job.”

      OP1, use wording that works best in your situation, but you need to make it clear to HR and upper management that your supervisor is judging your entire performance on a superficial physical characteristic. Do not stand for this.

    8. Bagpuss*

      Or use the term ‘flush’ – it’s not used so much for mebarassment and also HR may associate it ith hot flushes and be more open to acknowleging it as a mdical, rather than personal or perfomrmance related, issues.

      Also, when MArie commnts about you being more professional, ask her for specifc recommendations – exactly what does she want you to do differently?

    9. Bee*

      I was going to suggest the same thing! When you go to HR, describe it as “my face flushes” or “my face turns red very easily.” It sounds like OP has done a lot of work to get away from thinking of this as a normal blushing reaction, and I think no longer using a word that comes with such strong emotional connotations will help other people see the same thing.

    10. JMC*

      And when you go to HR definitely tell them all that has been going on IN WRITING!!!! And when your boss pulls that crap again reiterate it in an email so you have a digital trail. If it isn’t ADA level it should be it’s affecting how you can work.

      1. Carol the happy*

        It sounded to me like HR is sitting on its thinking node.

        My best friend is a redhead, and so pale it’s really noticable. She just says “It’s an involuntary capillary dilation, and it’s medical. Sometimes it lowers my blood pressure by a couple of points, usually when I come into a changed temperature or get out of the cold.

        Don’t worry, my skin is fine, and I’m not going to pass out from it. I’m used to it, but in college, idiot men thought I was blushing because of their magnificence.”

        Then she just gets on with whatever she was doing.

        You might add that “Marie, who isn’t used to an uncommon medical condition, is so worried that I might SWOON, she’s always watching to see if I’m going to pass out from it, aren’t you, Marie? Thanks for the concern, it’s tiresome, but it’s absolutely not a problem!”

    11. Lemons*

      Agreed, it’s too late with Marie now, but I think you need to reframe and re-approach how you address this, you not mentioning it could EASILY be interpreted as “she’s uncomfortable and afraid to say something.”

      For new people, when you feel yourself blushing, just acknowledge it in a friendly type of way and move on. If you’re comfortable disclosing it, you could even present the situation as a fun fact, like, “did you know X% people have overreactive blushing? It’s called idiopathic craniofacial erythema, guess I’m just lucky! Anyways about that TPS report…”

      1. Ellie*

        I’d like to gently push back on the notion that it’s too late to fix things with Marie. My daughter had a terrible time with a teacher at school, was accused of not paying attention, mucking around, and other misbehaviours. The teacher did a full turn around after we took her to a specialist and got her diagnosed with dyslexia. It was like night and day – she revamped her whole curriculum around my daughter’s needs. So I think that once someone is aware that there’s a medical issue in play, it can make a difference.

        OP, I’d start by having a one on one with your manager and bring all the medical documentation that you have, and go from there. Depending on her reaction, I’d go to HR afterwards. But I’d give her the option to make amends on her own, in case it really is just a misunderstanding.

    12. Smithy*

      I really like this.

      I have rosacea, so have that extra redness at rest and then when flushed can get even redder. This is regularly seem as a problem I’d want to fix, and I’m sure there are some people who do. My response has largely been that I’m “just red” but also I’ll deflect to saying I’m sensitive to heat. It’s not entirely untrue, but find that framing it as a flushing reaction to temperature vs a blushing reaction to emotion help people contextualize it differently.

    13. Awesome Sauce*

      “Marie is harassing me and threatening disciplinary action because of the way my face looks.”

  5. Viette*

    LW #4 – this is in a way a version of the “what if their poor performance is due to undisclosed factors” considerations where it thankfully is up to the individual to mange their individual situation via time management, requesting accommodations, whatever. Employers should be open and willing to work with employees on how to succeed at their jobs, but otherwise they’re not policing the judgment of their workers’ life decisions, just their work output.

    Obviously you can’t request accommodations for a diagnosis of Two Jobs At Once, but a person could get two shift-work jobs and manage the shifts so they didn’t clash and work 80 hours a week if they wanted to, and if they produced good work no one would know or care (except their friends who want to hang out with them after work).

    Ultimately all the employer wants is the job done, whether that means a physical presence, machines inspected, or cakes decorated most beautifully.

  6. Emma*

    For LW1 – I’m a bit surprised this wouldn’t be considered illegal in any way. There are medical conditions that don’t impair you physically and don’t require an accommodation other than “I need you to not remark on this” (e.g. acne) and I feel like there should be something in there for that.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yes — the ADA only covers “physical or mental impairments that substantially limit one or more major life activities,​ such as seeing, hearing, speaking, walking or breathing.”

      1. Anon for this*

        Wow, I didn’t realize that. So even though my OCD, anxiety, and depression are disabilities to me, they certainly don’t impair breathing, seeing, hearing, or walking. So if I needed an accommodation at work to come to the office only 2 days/week, instead of the required 3 (which I would need, if my boss wasn’t as flexible and understanding as he is), that wouldn’t be an accommodation that HR would legally be required to consider?

        1. juliebulie*

          Yes, this is a surprise. Also apparently maybe side-effects don’t count either? I mean the wording does seem to include mental disabilities but doesn’t seem to cover them in terms of their effects. “Not being able to get out of bed until 2 pm” is a pretty bad limit to daily activities.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Mental health conditions qualify. The EEOC explains this by saying they may “make activities more difficult, uncomfortable, or time-consuming to perform compared to the way that most people perform them.”

          1. PlainJane*

            I had been talking about getting evaluated for ADHD a long time before I actually did it (psychologists response at my symptoms boiled down to, “Well, duh”). My boss, whose husband is ADHD, said that it was generally not covered even if diagnosed. Which is weird, because most of the stuff I have ever struggled with at work (forgetting that I had an outreach visit scheduled on a day off, losing track of time while hyper-focused, my perennially messy desk) are ADHD related. Luckily, the same boss brought me some of the hacks her husband used, and I was able to start getting more on the ball. God bless Google and Outloook calendars, and the ability to set several alarms. I haven’t missed deadlines or meetings since I started using them, and now I’m trying a slightly more advanced “break the project into small chunks and set alarms for those” system. But nothing seems to make me capable of keeping a pristine desk.

            1. Bunch Harmon*

              I was stunned when a therapist suggested I might have ADHD. My spouse had a similar reaction to your psychologists – “you mean you didn’t know!?!”

            2. Coffee*

              For me a big thing about getting a diagnosis was that I was “allowed” to use endless lists and reminders without guilt. Until then it was endless “adult should be able to handle this without assistance”

              1. PlainJane*

                Yup. That’s mostly why, even though I’d kind of figured it out, I wanted to get evaluated. The mental permission to say “My brain does not and will never ‘grow up’ and start behaving like everyone else’s” was freeing… and, not to point out the obvious, gave me hacks to at least simulate it. I still have trouble planning WITH someone else–my habit of deciding that something I’d already settled on isn’t good enough and thinking of something better the day before tends to frustrate people–but at least being nominally aware of what I’m doing and why other people don’t think it’s normal has made me better at realizing, “Hey, ADHD alert! Let the neurotypical do things her way and don’t freak her out by changing things at the last minute. She really isn’t being stubborn, she just has some sense of things being *done*.”

                In terms of the question, which I really did set out to respond to–yeah, no comment–whether the OP’s condition is recognized medically or not, it is still something out of her control. No one sets out to blush all the time. No one sets out to blink rapidly when a bright light goes on. No one decides to start shivering in the cold. They’re autonomic responses, and it’s totally inappropriate for the supervisor to so much as comment on it, especially as no one else the OP works with, including customers, complains.

              2. goddessoftransitory*

                God, I hate that attitude of “adults never need to do X.” It’s like when people think I can’t do math because I have to write down, say, a division problem or figuring a percentage instead of doing it my head. Clearly I CAN do the math–see? here’s me doing it! Pencils weren’t invented because humanity at large is so great at doing everything mentally!

            3. beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk-ox*

              So, I just went through a job search a couple of months ago and I am positive ADHD was used as a specific example on that list of examples of disabilities that are a part of the job application process in the US — where you have to select you are or have been disabled, you aren’t, or you choose to not disclose. I’m a bit surprised that your boss thinks that.

              Now, if you work for a very small company (less than 15 employees), they aren’t held to ADA accommodation rules as far as I understand it. But ADHD is certainly considered a disability protected by the ADA.

              1. PlainJane*

                Interesting. I’m not sure what kind of accommodations they can give me, anyway. Things do need to get done, and I guess my messy desk makes my office-mate crazy.

        4. Samwise*

          It’s not ONLY “breathing, seeing, hearing, or walking”. Those are examples. The wording is deliberately open-ended and does not try to name all covered situations.

          I don’t know what major life activity your disabilities interfere with, but they could very well be major and they could very well be covered under the ADA.

          If they are covered, then the next question is, is there a reasonable accommodation? that is an interactive process between employee and employer. Sometimes the needed accommodation is not reasonable, or would substantially interfere with the requirements of the job. In your case, you would need to make the case that working at home an additional day is reasonable and does not prevent you from actually doing the job.

    2. Jessen*

      Unfortunately that mostly falls under “it’s not illegal to be a donkey’s rear end.” If it was, Alison would have much less advice she needed to give.

    3. Anax*

      It… *might* be covered under the ADA if LW1’s manager *believes* she has an anxiety disorder. The ADA covers not just disabilities, but the perception of disability.

      That might be hard to prove, but LW1, you might want to keep record of any emails or conversations where your manager does state or strongly imply you have an anxiety disorder, even though you don’t.

      1. Nightengale*

        That’s my read as well. Not a lawyer but reasonably knowledgeable about the ADA

        the ADA cover people with impairments, people with a history of impairment and people regarded as having impairments. People in these last two prongs aren’t entitled to accommodations but are entitled to protection from discrimination. The example used in my disability law class was someone with a prominent facial birthmark who wasn’t hired as a receptionist due to perception it would be an issue with clients

          1. fhqwhgads*

            I think this meshes pretty well with her answer?
            The problem is that the boss seems to assume the redness is due to severe anxiety – which would be a covered condition – and seems to be trying to PIP or fire OP over it – that’s discrimination based on the perceived impairment.

      2. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Yes this is a very good point.

        Also, frankly, a lot of companies are really bad at understanding their legal obligations and very nervous about litigation, so the implied threat in “I’m being treated differently due to a medical condition” will often be enough to take care of it.

        1. CL*

          IANAL but per the EEOC page The ADA: Questions and Answers: “The third part of the definition protects individuals who are regarded and treated as though they have a substantially limiting disability, even though they may not have such an impairment. For example, this provision would protect a severely disfigured qualified individual from being denied employment because an employer feared the ‘negative reactions’ of others.”

  7. RCB*

    #1, since this is a diagnosed medical condition I’d suggest taking the medical paperwork to HR with you so they know for sure that it is a medical issue and have no plausible deniability. Remember that most HR is actually pretty bad at their jobs (don’t get defense HR people, the vast majority really are bad at the nuances of this kind of stuff) and would not at all know that this is not a protected medical issue, they’ll just see that it’s a documented medical issue and likely take it seriously. And since your performance reviews directly mentioned appearance it’s a direct line from your medical condition to you being punished for your medical condition, so this is a very solid case (lawsuit or otherwise) to make without much ambiguity as to what is happening, so I think you have a very good chance of this being taken seriously. Even if HR did know the very nitty gritty details of the ADA and was very condition that this condition probably didn’t qualify, it’s still a very odd hill to die on, and most places just aren’t that dumb, especially if you really are a good performer like you say.

    Speak up, I think you have more power than you realize.

    1. carrot cake*

      No one can possibly know what”most” people are “bad at,” HR or otherwise.

      If you don’t want people to get defensive, then don’t write something as patently offensive as “…most HR are pretty bad at their jobs…”

      @LW: As others have suggested, go to HR. Your boss is being mean-spirited and unethical. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with her bad behavior.

      1. Mango Freak*

        HR aside, I’m not sure what you mean by “no one can possibly know what most people are bad at.” We have plenty of information about averages and skills and tendencies.

    2. HonorBox*

      Whether it rises to an ADA accommodation or not, I think mentioning that it is medical is perfect. I have a bad back. I mentioned to my doctor once (not even a back doctor) that wearing dress shoes really messes me up for a couple of days afterward. My boss is cool as hell and never minded me not wearing dress shoes, but my doctor wrote a letter for my file anyway. My boss took it and filed it, more for a time in the future should he not be here. It isn’t a formal accommodation but it is something from a doctor that speaks to my specific reality and how my medical situation can be helped by wearing tennis shoes.

    3. Lex Talionis*

      Also when you speak with HR I would mention my manager is complaining about me to my colleagues. Very unprofessional.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Very much.

        Marie is a terrible manager. She never once sat down with OP and asked what was going on? Never explored the issue to see how it should be handled. What’s the PIP going to say, blush 75% in 4 weeks time?

        1. amylynn*

          Yeah, managers like Marie are the reason that performance reviews and PIPs are now ineffective as management tools. As far as I am concerned a manager caught abusing either one should at best be put on a serious “do not do this again, ever, or you will be fired on the spot” warning.

          1. iiii*

            Or put on a performance improvement plan for overuse of performance improvement plans.
            A ‘PIP PIP,’ as it were.

      2. Goldenrod*

        THIS. Also, LW 1, for what it’s worth, I think I would find this rather charming, and not off-putting at all.

        For me, personally, when people come across as a bit shy, it puts me more at ease, because it reminds me that we are all human. There is nothing at all wrong with this. Your boss needs to get over herself.

    4. Truly Nolan*

      “HR is actually pretty bad at their jobs (don’t get defense HR people, the vast majority really are bad at the nuances of this kind of stuff)”

      How rude. HR is the backbone of any well run organization. We are the people who recruit, motivate, and retain talent. We are the people who ensure a diverse workforce. We are the people who make sure that nepotism doesn’t happen. We are the people who make sure that line managers don’t hire from privileged talent pools only and that they don’t lord over underrepresented groups. We are even the people who cut your paychecks on time.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        HR is absolutely critical, but they’ve never been involved in motivating or retaining me anywhere I’ve worked, other than giving me FMLA paperwork, which I guess is retention in a very specific way. It’s all behind the scenes for most people.

      2. Lenora Rose*

        All the more reason that when HR is badly run it does much more harm to employees than other departments.

        Even an HR which does well on hiring and payroll can still fail on disability and after-hiring discrimination issues, or disciplinary action, or compassionate leave. Unusual occasions like this are exactly the place even the well-intended can choke; either being too much a stickler for the rules, or being too afraid of the consequences if they err.

        And it’s flat true that HR’s priority is the well-being of the company, which may well clash with the well-being of the individual.

        1. carrot cake*

          “Unusual occasions like this are exactly the place even the well-intended can choke; either being too much a stickler for the rules, or being too afraid of the consequences if they err.”
          —

          Or, you know, being inexperienced and you know, humans who are going to make mistakes.

          Also: “too much a stickler for the rules” – seriously? “Too much of”?

          “…being too afraid of the consequences if they err” – as anyone would be. I mean, HR gotta eat, too.

          I mean, I can’t with this…

          1. Lenora Rose*

            There’s a difference between “we are obliged to follow these rules due to law/equity/etc, we’re sympathetic but we literally can’t change it” and “we are going to follow these rules even when the situation is one where the spirit of the rule does not apply, the law behind the rule does not disallow it, and we have had a C-suite person with the authority to do so give explicit permission to allow flexibility.” Be grateful if you’ve never met the latter.

            How about the letter where someone asked for an ergonomic chair wasn was given literal reams of paperwork and months of delay? Was that not “too much a stickler” enough?

            And we’ve had multiple letters where it was obvious HR was letting some patent misbehaviour slide because the person had some other accommodations and they somehow thought the ADA allowed workers to not even do their work.

          2. Mango Freak*

            If the phenomenon (ineffective HR) is sometimes caused by inexperience, human error, or a desire to keep ones job, but the phenomenon remains, and must be acknowledged. It’s not less of a problem just because it has a relatable explanation.

      3. Alice*

        The commenter was definitely rude. And they knew it — anytime you find yourself writing “don’t get defensive but” is a clue to rethink.
        That said, while I’m sure we all agree that HR functions are very important, that’s a different statement from saying that HR functions are always (or even generally) carried out well.
        In fact, of the HR functions you mention, the only one that I’ve never seen go wrong, personally, is about cutting paychecks on time. And even then, sometimes I’ve seen mistakes with withholdings, which took a lot longer to sort out that I expected.

        1. Wayward Sun*

          In the places I’ve worked cutting paychecks was accounting, not HR. (So I can’t blame HR for the time a company failed to deduct my health care premium for six months, then demanded I make it all up right away.)

      4. Goldenrod*

        I mean…sure. Truly Nolan, I am sure *you* are good at your job, but if there has been one constant in my 30+ year career so far, it is that HR has consistently let me down.

        The worst boss I ever had in my whole life was the President of HR (I was her EA). She made fun of my clothes, had obvious favorites, was massively incompetent, misused funds, and was emotionally abusive (to everyone, not just me). And this is at a LARGE UNIVERSITY.

        Far from motivating talent, she couldn’t keep an assistant to save her life.

        I mean, I am sorry you don’t like the negative feedback, but this is people talking from their own lived experience.

        1. I AM a Lawyer*

          I think it’s unfair to expect people to not react badly to someone saying everyone who does their job is bad at it.

      6. Wayward Sun*

        My experience is it depends a lot on the size of the company. Large companies will have HR that’s very compliance-oriented. Small ones will have HR that mostly protects management and looks the other way when they do things like nepotism hires.

    5. Ann O'Nemity*

      This comment is unfair and unnecessarily dismissive of an entire profession1 While there may be instances where HR professionals face challenges or make mistakes, painting the majority of them as “bad at their jobs” is an inaccurate generalization.

      HR teams navigate highly complex and sensitive issues, often balancing competing priorities and pressures. Instead of making sweeping criticisms, we should focus on constructive dialogue and solutions. Respectful engagement leads to progress, not baseless judgments.

      1. Mango Freak*

        I think it’s still worth flagging that many people have only had HR experiences that bear no resemblance to the HR we see described online.

    6. I AM a Lawyer*

      HR is very capable of understanding the ADA and will reach out to counsel if they need assistance.

  8. J*

    LW1, I feel for you as I’ve been in a similar situation. In my case, the senior manager thought I had a crush on him because I kept turning red when he spoke to me, and he was really off with me for a little while until he realised he’d got it wrong. That was awkward to say the least, especially as I’d recently taken a sideways move into a new role where I had a lot more interaction with him. One thing I found helpful was to have a bottle of ice cold water on hand (we had a freezer at work so this may not be a helpful suggestion if you don’t!) as drinking cold water can make it harder for blushing to happen. Also, I don’t know if this is any help but deep breathing at the time that you feel yourself blushing helped me reduce the intensity a bit. I really hope this gets resolved for you; it’s sad that your manager can’t see past this and judge you on results!

    2. Anon For This*

      I don’t think I can recommend the surgery.
      A number of years ago, my (then not yet) boyfriend was a blusher. H wasn’t of adult age yet (only 16), so his wealthy parents had the surgery performed on him.
      Afterwards, he didn’t blush, but always had a cold and a warm hand.
      They psychological issues stayed, and he was unhappy with his parents.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        It reads like something out of the Twilight Zone. I feel horrible for her.

    3. Potatohead*

      I was actually thinking of that exact story – I had originally read about it (secondhand) in a surgeon’s memoirs but couldn’t remember the names or dates.

    4. Captain Swan*

      This particular condition was a plot line in an early season of Gray’s Anatomy. But there the focus was on how high risk the surgery was and why the patient decided to go forward with it.

    5. Clisby*

      Yeah, I never wanted to be in management and would have been terrible at managing people – but even I would have had the common sense to think, “It’s a client-facing position, and the clients all think highly of her” and conclude “One less thing for me to worry about.”

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Ditto. It’s too bad that so many of us who have a lot of empathy for people also have zero desire to manage people, because if not for the disinterest in being in charge, we would probably be great managers.

        When I was looking for my current job, I mentioned to my mom that I didn’t want to go into management and she was like, “Why? You’d love it!” (She was a manager for years and quite good at it.) I was like, Um, nooooo, I’d despise it. And one of her friends agreed with me. Not everyone wants to be in charge, Mom.

    6. JustaTech*

      Oh my goodness, you found the article! I mentioned it up-thread but I didn’t think their online archives went back that far.

  10. JeezLouise*

    I have anorexia (relevant, I promise, and I’m totally fine these days). When you have something visible that operates in flare ups, people love to comment. Last time I lost a lot of weight really quickly, people did the usual “ah, you look great!” Eventually I snapped and responded seemingly joyfully with “thanks! it’s a disease!” (To be clear, this person was a jackass and was not actually trying to be nice.)

    While HR is absolutely the way to go here, matching energy with bad news can be a great way to burn things to the ground. I think I’d go with “I called my doctor to see if he thought a PIP would cure me of this disorder. He doesn’t think so.”

    1. pally*

      I like that!

      What would the specific steps be to resolve such a PIP anyway? Yeah, if the doc can’t provide this, then maaaaybe that PIP is questionable.

    2. Blarg*

      Yes!! I have had some similar experiences. People should really just … stop commenting on appearances. If you want to say something about a person’s weight/body shape, a) just don’t but if you must b) comment on their outfit, their style, something they CHOSE. “I love that dress” is so much better than “you’ve lost weight!”

      I’m being treated for cancer, and am tired of people commenting on my hair, which is not a thing I ever considered before. It annoys the hell out of me when people say they like my hair cut. “Thanks, not a cut.” Or, “it was not consensual.” I hate my short hair, even if I can agree that it looks nice by a conventional standard.

    3. PlainJane*

      I would love that line in a movie, it’s excellent writing, but in the context of work where she might already be on shaky ground–LW’s boss has been talking to everyone, possibly including higher ups–it might not be a great idea. Sadly. Grr.

    4. On Fire*

      My grandmother: “Oh (person) looks great; they’ve lost so much weight.”
      My mom: “Yeah, they have cancer. They’re dying.”

      I do like the idea of matching energy. Preferably after documenting the issue with HR. Marie is being ridiculous, and this approach might help highlight that ridiculousness.

    5. blatherskite71*

      Love the matching energy. As someone with rosacea with a boss who would comment but not nearly to this extent, I learned to clap back. One day during the holidays I was wearing bright red light up holiday earrings. I was just walking past her and she asked “why are you blushing?” Without hesitating i replied “So my face matches my earrings.” Shut her up for a few weeks.

    6. evens*

      But why would you want to burn things to the ground? You will have to work with this boss in the future. Has OP 1 even talked to Marie and explained? Maybe that should be the first step, rather than burning bridges.

  11. Jellyfish Catcher*

    #1 :
    I am so sorry that you are receiving harassment. Your blushing is not actually the reason.
    The real reason is the malignancy of your manager; the type who will always find some defect / “reason” to harass those that she can. Since she can’t criticize your job abilities, she jumped to a personal attack.
    Fortunately ,in this case, it’s a medical condition and I hope HR shuts it (and her) down pronto.

    I’m of Irish stock; we have a much higher than average genetic percentage of rosacea. I’ve carried on; it’s never held me back career wise or otherwise, and it won’t do that to you, either. The best to you.

  12. Syderia·os*

    Regarding #4, at my old job, we had someone who wasn’t performing to expectations (a young person just debuting in the professional world), and when their manager had The Talk with them, they revealed that they were a very highly ranked international League of Legends player and they spent most of their nights playing the game. Their manager congratulated them on their ranking, and then told them they had to pick League of Legends or us. They picked us.

    1. so...*

      Honestly I’m surprised they entrusted an important project to an intern, without effective supervision or guidance on how to succeed.

      Honestly I would consider this a successful internship: The intern learned a valuable lesson about the working world, and quite early on in their career! Realistically, their supervisor should have patted them on the back, said, “it’s okay, we’ve all done it at least once”, gotten the raw files from them, and handed the assignment off to an employee for completion.

      Ideally, the intern should have been working more closely with a more experienced employee, to avoid this kind of mistake in the first place. Just the fact that the intern was down to their very last day when they delivered, tells me the employer may not have been taking this as seriously as they should have.

      1. On Fire*

        It’s been a few decades since I interned. Is it common for interns to do important projects like this on their own devices?

        1. Starbuck*

          It doesn’t say that it’s an important/major project for the org in the letter; my impression though is that it was the bulk of the work for the internship, so without it completed a reference from that internship wouldn’t mean much or be negative.

        2. Yorick*

          Sometimes. I did a project for an internship on my own laptop in 2008. It wasn’t vital for the organization, but would be super helpful for them to have it.

        3. CubeFarmer*

          We had someone at our organization who preferred to work on his home laptop–it was faster and better suited to what he needed to do than his work computer (that’s a whole different problem that his supervisor was an idiot and didn’t resource his team correctly.) This isn’t necessarily a problem so long as the person transfers the work to the server so that we all have access to it.

          Like I said, this guy’s supervisor was an idiot. When this person left his supervisor also didn’t ensure that the work was transferred to our server, mostly because he wasn’t on top of things enough to know to do that. Therefore his replacement was left with no templates to work from. This whole mess is just now hitting the proverbial fan. How this supervisor stays in his role is a reflection of how little our leadership understands our jobs.

      2. Bumblebee*

        Why would anyone give the intern such a huge project and not have a backup? Ideally the intern is assigned something that will be awesome if it works out, but not cause harm if it doesn’t. Often the best lessons for young people at work are found in their failure, anyway.

        2. Starbuck*

          It doesn’t say it’s a huge project for the org, but my guess is that it was almost the entire focus of the internship. So without that completed, the internship isn’t going to count for much or anything for the LW. So they’re following up because without the completed work, you wouldn’t be able to say much as a reference about how the intern really performed.

          This is how my org worked with interns in the past – we’d mutually agree on a project that matched their interest and would be a really nice bonus thing for us to have, but wasn’t essential to our operations or anything. So that we’d both benefit if it worked out, but if the intern turned out to be a flake or other issues, it wouldn’t be a crisis for us.

          1. Kevin Sours*

            If it wasn’t an important project why the push to have the intern complete after they are no longer working there? It is a failure of management — particularly the management of an intern — that OP was even in a position to make the mistake they made. Not being able to “say much as a reference” without OP doing extra (unpaid?) work to redo what was lost suggests and even deeper failure on the part of management. Were they really not doing checkins and reviews for months?

            1. Starbuck*

              Reaching out a few times to see how it’s going isn’t the same as pushing for it to get done though. To me it sounds like the LW probably realized the mistake and promised to make sure the work still got done because again, without the project turned in it’s going to be really hard to give a good reference (or at least this is what LW2 fears) since for example in school you don’t get a grade for work that you got done but didn’t ever turn in.

              Again this is based on my experience with student intern projects; if I had in intern in this scenario I could describe the progress I saw in their work and that it was promising (we don’t know that there weren’t check ins, there totally could have been), but I couldn’t leave out that they messed up and dropped the ball on the most important part of their work – the finished result.

              1. Kevin Sours*

                Sorry but OP wasn’t the only one who dropped the ball here. If you’ve bungled the management of the project as badly as OP’s manager bungled it then need to take responsibility for that and issue a recommendation accordingly.

                And if the project wasn’t important enough to manage properly you don’t hold the intern accountable when it goes sideways due to a mistake you should have prevented.

                1. Starbuck*

                  I don’t see the huge error in management that you do; yeah they should probably have a better file back up system but I don’t agree that it’s obvious that they weren’t checking in as the project was going along. Things could have been going just fine until LW accidentally deleted stuff right at the very end. In small orgs the file organization might not be as sophisticated as you’re imagining.

                  And you really can’t give a recommendation like “the LW’s work could have been great if we’d managed better” because who would give weight to that? They can say that not getting the finished project wasn’t completely the LW’s fault either, sure, but they still don’t have the final work to actually evaluate if they only saw the in-progress versions. Hopefully the video wasn’t the only significant project/task that LW worked on and they have other things to show for their time though. And if they do get the work in and it’s usable by the org it can all work out anyway.

                2. Starbuck*

                  I’m just not seeing the huge management failure that you are, though. It’s very possible that they were checking in on drafts/progress as the project went along, and after all LW was on track to finish on time as expected. They can say that it’s not totally LW’s fault the project disappeared, sure, but they can’t evaluate a final product they never saw.

                  I also don’t see the “holding them accountable” thing here. Sending a few “hey how’s it going” messages after LW probably told them herself that she’d keep working on it isn’t putting on this huge burden – it kind of sounds like LW did that to herself. Responding “sorry, it’s gone and I can’t re-do it” was an option. Not a satisfying one, but it’s there.

        3. Higgs Bison*

          It happens, though. When I was an intern I managed a pedestrian bridge construction project with the only other person from the organization onsite (sometimes in-country) being the other intern who was co-managing with me.

      3. Betsy S*

        Agree. This was a failure of supervision AND a good learning experience as far as computers. And probably not a good learning experience on the subject mattter.

        If these files were important at all, they shouldn’t have been on an intern’s computer for more than a few minutes, let alone the intern’s personal computer. That raw footage should have been uploaded and verified soon after it was created.

        For a big project, I’d also expect a rough draft review, with time to make corrections and improvements. That whole part of the internship experience is missing from this project.

      4. EC*

        It doesn’t sound like the project was important for the organization, but it was important for the internship itself. For example, in my lab we have summer undergraduate interns. They aren’t given projects that are important for our work overall, but all the interns in the program are expected to submit their project at the end of the summer. Then there’s a mini conference where the interns all share their work. If they don’t turn in their project, they won’t get credit. It sounds like the intern was supposed to do a small project and then submit it for the internship.

        The LW also said that they would redo it, and then they didn’t update the organization because they were too scared to send an email for months.

    2. Lemons*

      Dropbox has saved my bacon SO many times…#2 get some sort of storage that backs up your projects for you automatically. I work directly out of my DB folder, so every change I make is saved and versioned, including when I delete a file completely, and you can just unsync it from your computer to free up space without deleting files. I very rarely delete anything, you’d be surprised how often you’ll need to reference some old thing as your career progresses.

      Also, you’re being really diligent and responsible about all this!! Don’t beat yourself up too much, things like this happen.

      1. Freya*

        This. I deliberately made my downloads folder on my office computer to be my work account’s OneDrive, which automatically syncs to the cloud. I may get messages several times a week about me having deleted lots of files from my OneDrive, but it’s about me deleting those files out of my Downloads as I upload them to the server. And if something goes absolutely pear-shaped, I’ve lost nothing, and my boss can (with IT’s help) get access to everything I’ve done.

    3. Kevin Sours*

      Organizational backup strategy shouldn’t be delegated to an intern. The files for a months long project should not solely exist on one persons personal device. This is a failure of management and should be viewed as such.

    4. March*

      d) even if your colleagues and supervisors are exceptionally kind and warm and welcoming to you, and you feel as though maybe it’s almost more than you deserve… that still does not mean that you owe them all of your best efforts until The Job Is Done To Perfection. (I’ll let you know if I ever manage to truly internalize this truth myself – it’s a work in progress!)

  14. WorkInnit*

    Letter#1: Marie sounds like a bully. She may not be standing on a school playground shouting insults, but it’s the same behaviour in principle: excluding someone because she wants to dominate others, dealing with her own low self-esteem and wanting to feel better about herself. Marie is making her own discomfort someone else’s problem.

    1. Anon for this*

      Yeah, that’s what it reads like to me as well. She didn’t manage to get over her first impression of LW and is completely resistant in seeing LW’s work product by itself.
      The way out of that discomfort is either self-reflection “Is there actually an issue here with LW’s work?” or blaming LW as the imagined source of her discomfort and her inability to let people be differnt from her.

      2. Nonsense*

        You’ve heard who we just reelected right? No anti-bullying legislation will ever pass in these circumstances.

        1. frostipaws*

          Workplace Bullying Institute’s Healthy Workplace Bill has been introduced in 32 state legislatures. Puerto Rico enacted the first Workplace Bullying Law in the U.S. in 2020. So there is hope!

      3. Seashell*

        I would be interested to hear about what anti-bullying legislation that applies to adults covers in other countries. I have never heard of such a thing.

        2. Glomarization, Esq.*

          -sigh- I have another comment stuck in moderation because it includes a specific word. I’ll add to that comment: in Canada, an employer has a general duty to protect the health and safety of their employees, in addition to specific legislation. Preventing and addressing bullying falls under that umbrella.

        3. londonedit*

          In the UK there’s no specific law against bullying in the workplace, but employers do have a responsibility to prevent bullying in their workplaces. There are laws against harassment, which is bullying related to a person’s age/gender/disability/race/pregnancy and maternity/marriage and civil partnership/race/religion/sexual orientation. Harassment is against the law, but bullying itself can also be cited in cases of constructive dismissal – as in, the bullying has made someone’s life at work so miserable that they had no choice but to resign. And that would be dealt with by an employment tribunal. Bullying and harassment can include things like spreading malicious rumours, unfair treatment, repeatedly picking on someone or undermining them, or denying someone opportunities for training or promotion.

          1. Ellis Bell*

            Yeah a tribunal would probably conclude a bullying manager was guilty of constructive dismissal without cause.

        4. bamcheeks*

          There’s not specific law against bullying in the UK but employers have a duty of care to provide a safe working environment and includes protecting employees from bullying and harassment. According to ACAS and Unison (a major union), there are a few different acts which might cover it, like Protection from Harassment Act, Equality Act or Health and Safety At Work.

      4. Learn ALL the things*

        In general, if you’re wondering whether the US has a specific worker protection, the answer is probably no. Some states have better protections for workers than others, but at the national level we have very few protections.

        1. ScruffyInternHerder*

          Right? Assume no protections til proven otherwise.

          Basically we were founded by Puritans.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            I still don’t get how just 20 thousand Puritan colonists in the mid 1600s has left us with such a deeply shame and punishment-based culture 400 years later.

              1. Freya*

                Technically, most but not all of the Australian states were penal colonies – South Australia, where I grew up, banned convict labour as part of the setup, to try and promote the colony to more ‘respectable’ families, and to try to get a better gender balance than was happening where there was a bunch of (mostly male) convict labour. The Adelaide accent is distinctly different to everywhere else in Australia as a result.

  15. a commenter*

    LW #3,

    Even if you do end up getting the amount you requested as an offer, without knowing anything else about that place I’d be incredibly wary of working there. You’re basically at the top of their salary band then. That means you have incredibly limited room for raises without taking on more responsibility.

    Additionally, even if this works, your coworkers will likely be making a _lot_ less then you. That means if they find out how much you make, it has the potential to make them resent you.

    All around this is just not the play in my opinion.

    1. T*

      This! The manager stretched the truth to keep you in process and probably has no way to influence the pay. Depending on the salary equity laws in your state, HR might really not be able to change that. I’d be weary that the raises will keep you at a low rate if they end up increasing your starting wage due to keeping your peers in the salary band with you.

    2. Insert Clever Name Here*

      Yeah. LW asked about how to repair their reputation with their contacts who already work there and I would be candid that “there was miscommunication about what salary they could offer, and taking the job would be a significant pay cut.” Your contacts should be sympathetic to that and not hold it against you.

    3. el l*

      Yeah, you should know that in negotiations in general it’s a common tactic for the other side to react to very reasonable requests as if you just asked to see their social security number. Sometimes it’s manipulative, sometimes it’s just complacency, but it happens all the time. Don’t feel bad about their annoyance.

      It was manager and HR’s job to get on the same page on this extremely important issue of what is and isn’t possible re salary, and communicate to you a united organizational line. They couldn’t. Now you just can’t trust their word.

      I’d probably walk, but if you’re not willing to leave it there I’d give them exactly one more chance. And here’s your bottom line: “I’m hearing 2 different things regarding salary expectations for myself – for this year and beyond. For discussions to continue, I need to see in writing that [$x] is possible, and that getting [$x] this year won’t imperil future merit-based raises.”

      And if there is not a clear “Yes, we can do that, sorry” from them, say see ya.

  16. r..*

    LW3,

    this smells of a HR who is allowed to be penny-wise and pound-foolish, and been given primary decision making authority over salaries without ever being held accountable for situations where bad decisions led to substantial costs to the actual business units not being able to hire well.

    Beyond that, unless the role is really in an essentially commoditized field, the notion that “we pay everyone the same for this role when we hire them, because there is no way at all some of them could be worse than others in ways that are material” is bananapants. Being annoyed by the situation is just the extra bonus cherry on top.

    Personally, I’d withdraw my candidacy at this point. Yes, your hiring manager might be able to intervene on the starting salary, but they were kind enough to give you strong hints about how things like raises or CoL adjustments would work at this company. Are you really willing to put up with this year after year?

    1. Learn ALL the things*

      We can’t know for sure that this is penny wise and pound foolish.

      A lot of companies are cracking down on salary negotiations to try and limit the gender/race pay gap. The common excuse companies try to give when white men are paid higher salaries for the same job duties is that they negotiated and the other employees didn’t, so some companies are starting to take negotiation out of the equation entirely.

      And even if the company does negotiate on salary, it doesn’t look like the LW offered any justification for a salary increase apart from previous salary. They don’t mention in the letter whether they made their case with HR based on their prior experience or high skill level that would justify a higher salary, just that they wanted a salary that would match what they already make. HR doesn’t care how much you make now, they care how much you’re worth to their company.

      1. All Things Considered*

        LW says they had far more experience than the job description. I actually think it’s safe to assume they leaned on that experience when they say they “negotiated.” Why would we assume otherwise just because they didn’t explicitly say so? It’s not like they gave a play-by-play of the conversation. The topic of the letter isn’t about simply being offered an unfairly low salary; it’s about how LW should handle being mislead about salary range by a professional contact.

  17. Falling Diphthong*

    Re #3, someone should analyze how much standard business practice is just trying to get other people to fall for the sunk cost fallacy.

  18. MakeHerSayIt*

    OP1, I have several medical conditions that qualify as disabilities and several that don’t, and almost always it’s the ones that technically don’t that cause issues at work. Most employers don’t get that far in the weeds. Once you indicate it’s medical then it’s medical and treated as such.

    For example, I am medically unable to wear a bra because of skin conditions. I have infrequently gotten some complaints about this. In most cases once I explain it’s medical that’s the end of it. Once I had to engage a bit further and explain more and also address it more than once (“are you sure you can’t…”), but even then it was mostly dropped when I got a note from my doctor (who couldn’t believe they wanted a note for something so minor).

    I’m legally blind and I now need to use a walker, both of which do fall under ADA, but they rarely come up, and certainly less often than things my doctors don’t consider a big deal or at most minor inconveniences (my current job is the first job I’ve had in maybe 20 years where I’ve even had to discuss my vision – normally I just ask someone to increase the size of a display without specifying why and they comply because someone asked – and that’s only because one of my coworkers doesn’t really care and sometimes refuses to do it on request/repeatedly claims it’s not possible).

    So sympathies, and I understand why you choose to ignore the blushing as a matter of course until it comes up as an issue, but have you even asked Marie what she feels you need to change and then told her it’s a medical condition? Because that would be the first step in my experience. If not, you don’t even know that the blushing is the problem for certain. In most places I’ve worked, the first question I’d get if I went to HR would be have you discussed this directly with Marie and they would send me to do so before anything else could happen if I hadn’t. Further, escalating to HR can sometimes limit the possible/acceptable solutions, slow things down, and require pretty rigid medical documentation, especially for conditions they don’t deal with every day. That’s not to say you won’t end up there anyway, and if Marie is solely basing her comments on your blushing it may even be likely, but you’ll probably have more success in the end if Marie has explicitly called out the blushing and you have told her it’s a medical condition.

    Good luck!

    1. Shane*

      Yes! This approach is helpful…some times people get stuck on a “problem” because they don’t know what’s going on and having an answer can help, not necessarily a good thing but saying that it’s medical could stop her manager from perseverating on it and finally drop it.

    2. MigraineMonth*

      Agreed. I was surprised that OP and their manager don’t seem to have ever discussed the (presumed) problem and that it’s a medical condition, and that Alison didn’t suggest it. (Though the manager’s actions are completely out of proportion, and I’m doubtful the relationship can be fixed at this point.)

  19. Redaktorin*

    I’ve got a sinus tachycardia, which is a fancy way of saying that a couple times a year, I sit in a room with doctors who tell me I’m clearly stressed out and need to quit my job. I am not stressed out and will not be quitting my job.

    It’s absolutely maddening, and it sucks that doctors like this have made OP feel like they can’t discuss their very real medical issue with HR. I hope they do so anyway. OP, the truth is that you are not showing signs of an anxiety disorder, and there shouldn’t be anything wrong with telling people the truth.

  20. Turingtested*

    LW 2, something really struck me about your letter: you were using a personal device for work. The entire situation could’ve been avoided if your former employer had supplied you equipment. (Maybe it’s not standard in media.)

    Second, who waits until someone’s last day to have them upload their important work? It’s extremely predictable that something could go wrong and it would be hard to fix because you’re no longer working there.

    To me this 100% reads like someone new to the workforce not being given proper guidance or expectations. It speaks well of you that you take this so seriously but I don’t see what else you could’ve done.

    All that said, this type of thing is the experience employers are looking for.

      1. Starbuck*

        It’s pretty normal for a student intern though. My guess is this project was something that the intern was interested in doing, and would be nice to have for the org, but not essential. So the stakes are high for the intern, but relatively low for the org. They can get by without the project probably, but if the LW doesn’t get it turned in it might be that the internship doesn’t count for much. This is how my org set up project-based internships in the past.

    2. Lexi Vipond*

      I don’t know that it’s unusual for a student intern, though – you might be working on a project for that alongside projects for other classes.

      1. Lexi Vipond*

        (It’s also normal for a student assignment not to be uploaded until the day of the deadline, so if no one asked for it to be treated differently I can see why they didn’t think of it.)

        1. T2*

          If that is the case, backup backup backup. 3 copies of your data, storing them on two different types of media, and keeping one copy off-site is a rule for a reason.

    3. Adriano*

      I saw
      > I’ve since been in a scramble to redo them with only the raw footage left (some of which was also deleted)

      And… Who leaves the only copy of the raw footage used for anything important with an intern? That was a(nother) massive dropping of the ball by the employer.

  21. T2*

    For LW2,

    I will be honest. As a seasoned 30 year IT pro the first rule is don’t allow critical data to only exist on user computers for this reason.

    Users make mistakes. Heck, even us IT pros who inherently know how these systems work make mistakes. Backup systems should have been in place and tested to make sure that there was protection.

    I made the same mistake as you with deleting the source before the copy was complete. But I had those backup systems to cover my butt.

    So, as bad as you feel, please know this kind of thing happens all the time and that the company should have prepared for the possibility.

    The only suggestion I would make is that in the future, make sure your source files are in a different place than your output files. So then you can upload them in two steps.

    1. Kevin Sours*

      I want to second this. OP should never have been in a position to make such a catastrophic mistake and the fact that they were is the fault of the organization.

  22. I should really pick a name*

    #1

    She’s told me that as a customer-facing employee I need to work on my presentation and interpersonal skills, and kept reiterating that she’s not happy with the way I present myself

    Has she ever been specific about the changes she wants to see?

    1. HonorBox*

      Oh that’s a great point. Put it to her, LW, and make her say specifically what it is that is concerning her. If she’s smart she’ll let it drop because this isn’t something like, “I need you to stop wearing yoga pants to meetings.” Instead she’s dancing around it, making very general comments, and there’s actually nothing actionable.

      If she’s going to proceed with a PIP, she’s going to have to be very specific, too.

    2. cosmicgorilla*

      This is what I want to know. LW may have just not included specific conversations, but I was looking for the part where boss flat out said, “You blush too much with the customers.” The letter started out very specific and then got very vague, so it made me wonder if the blushing is in fact the issue.

      Ask boss for specific examples. What did she see? What would she like to see?

      What performance was not up to par? What results was boss expecting, as opposed to what was delivered?

  23. Anon. Scientist*

    #1, I have a very similar thing but I refer to it as flushing, not blushing. I go red at Everything and in my case I’m usually not embarrassed (getting older and not caring so much about dumb opinions really helped) but any negative emotion (usually irritation) shows. I also look absolutely toasted if I’ve been in the sun/wind/cold and all this extreme redness has resulted in rosacea that cannot be fixed unless I get lasered. People will assume that I have some horrible burn when I come inside, and I’ve taken to saying drily, “no, just the way I am, it’ll calm down evetually”.

    I would absolutely go to HR and say that my appearance is due to a medical condition rhat I cannot change and that my boss is treating me poorly because of this medical condition.

    As a side note: I was a shy, young looking girl and I would get bothered/teased by boys/men So Much because it was so easy to get a visible reaction out of me. It made my natural shyness infinitely worse and it sucked because it was just One Time for each guy and every time I was noticed socially it was miserable for me, leading to maladaptive behaviors that I had to really work on when I was starting my career.

  24. Chili*

    LW1, you have my sympathies. I have an essential tremor. All this means is that sometimes my hands shake thanks to genetics. People get very confused that I am very comfortable with and adept at public speaking because of it. When I started my current job, I told colleagues upfront that sometimes my hands shake because of a genetic quirk, nothing wrong, so they can just ignore it. This has been helpful.

    Ironically, a different genetic quirk means that my face will flush for things like heavy exercise but not embarrassment. Instead, my cheeks get this tight, tingly feeling. I didn’t know that that wasn’t accompanied by reddening until I was 19.

    1. Vito*

      I also have essential tremor and had brain surgery TWICE (1999 & 2000) to implant devices to control them. They lasted 15 years. I have not replaced them.

  25. Former Summer Lifeguard*

    LW1, this isn’t what you asked and you shouldn’t have to change your appearance to make your inappropriate boss stop commenting on your skin color, BUT: I had the exact same issue as you when I was younger, and just one laser treatment will make a significant difference in the flushing/blushing. If you see a cosmetic dermatologist about IPL (Intense Pulsed Light), it completely got rid of my frequently-red cheeks.
    Sharing this only if you’re interested, because it changed my life.

    1. Hroethvitnir*

      It seems unlikely to help in the case of overly responsive blood vessels (vs easily inflammed skin), but that’s interesting it worked so well!

  26. Apex Mountain*

    For #2, it sounds like overall your internship went fine, and hopefully this mishap at the end wasn’t really all that serious. I have to believe if the work was that crucial someone else would have already done it.

    Only advice is going forward you have to communicate things like this as soon as possible. I know you’ve gone through a lot, but nobody will care about any of that if they haven’t heard from you in months

    1. MsM*

      We try not to give interns projects where we can’t step in and finish things up if they drop the ball. They’re interns! It happens! I do think they should’ve just let it go after the second check-in or so (especially if they knew LW was in a weather-impacted area).

    2. Hyaline*

      Yes–I was going to say, if there’s one mistake the LW did make here, it was falling out of communication. Regular communication makes managing these situations much easier on the manager and less awkward for the person struggling, because it’s not building up into a Thing that you finally email about. I promise most managers would rather get a “disappointing” non-update update (“I had hoped to have this project finished by Friday, but I’ve hit a setback…”) than silence.

    3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I want to add here, because Alison didn’t address it: “I was very lucky to have this position, and my coworkers were incredibly kind…”
      In addition to the part where Alison writes that OP should not consider six months of unpaid labor after you leave a job as reasonable or typical (with the caveat this was the perfect storm and OP is right to look big picture/long term) OP, you didn’t get this position by luck. You were chosen because they thought you’d do the best job for them. They were kind because they are good people and you were a coworker…doing good work for them.

    4. Starbuck*

      If this is like the project-based internships that I’ve worked with in the past, unfortunately the project was probably the major focus for LW2’s internship position and something the org considered nice to have but maybe not essential. So it’s relatively high stakes for the LW – the internship might not actually count for much without that work completed – but the org can get by fine or make other plans if it really needs the work.

  27. HonorBox*

    OP1 – Marie sucks. I think in addition to what was suggested to highlight to HR, I’d like to suggest saying something like, “I’d like to be evaluated on my actual work, and don’t like the feeling that I’m being evaluated on and potentially penalized for something that is completely outside of my control.”

    1. HonorBox*

      Addition: I’d mention to HR that there is documentation from clients and previous boss (if so) that you are indeed doing your job well. Highlight any praise you’ve received. Highlight any annual reviews. Marie may be uncomfortable and not like that you blush, but that’s on her to fix.

  28. H.Regalis*

    But Alison, don’t you know that figuring out the cause of someone’s behavior is more important than getting them to stop whatever the behavior is??

  29. Buffalo*

    LW2, I recently supervised an intern in a situation very similar to yours. I believe the issue was primarily my fault, and I believe the issue in your situation is primarily your supervisor’s fault, for this reason:

    I told my intern that her primary duty was completing a project by the end of her term. She took that to mean what you took that to mean—what most students, used to cramming for tests and submitting final papers on the last day of the class would take that to mean—“I can just work on it throughout the term and submit it at 4:59 on my last day, because that’s when it’s due.” But that’s not really how it works at jobs, usually. If I could do it all over again, I’d have asked my intern to submit a chunk of the project every week and to have a draft of the entire project done halfway through the internship, because that’s how much time it would have taken to catch errors, let me give feedback, and make sure it got done right by the deadline. This is primarily a problem with your supervisor – “just send me the whole thing at the very, very end of your internship and hope it’s okay” is not the best way to manage an intern.

    I do agree with Alison that you’re being, in some ways, more conscientious than necessary. My intern sent in her project at the very end of the term. It was unusable. I thought, “Okay, I’ve got to supervise future interns differently.” But I never would have had her reconstruct it on her own time. An apology would suffice.

    Good luck!

    1. londonedit*

      Completely agree with all of this. I can 100% understand a student taking ‘this project is to be finished by the end of your internship’ to mean ‘this project should be handed in on the final day of your internship’. It’s on the supervisor to check in on progress from time to time, and to make sure the student has clear guidance on what’s needed. If it’s something that might need revisions, definitely get them to hand it in a week or so before the end of their stint, so they can get some final feedback and make any changes.

    2. Voodoo Priestess*

      I agree! I’m sure different industries are different, but there is no way my industry would ever let an intern be responsible for anything without 1) major oversight and 2) redundancy and back up.

      Could OP have had/kept better back ups? Sure. I think just about every adult learns that lesson the hard way at one point or another. But again, they knew the intern position wasn’t permanent and someone should have had copies or access to all files.

      Hey OP#2, not your fault. You’re trying to do the right thing and it sounds like you had very little support or guidance along the way (if you did, you wouldn’t be in this position).

    3. Starbuck*

      This is also not even how school works, though. Many teachers/professors will require you to submit drafts and have other feedback/check in points throughout the term for major projects or papers. We also don’t know that the org wasn’t checking progress during the term; just that the final version never made it in.

  30. Delta Delta*

    #1 – I’d be tempted to frame it to HR that Marie is alleging OP can’t do her job because of her body. (Despite the fact she is successfully doing the job, of course) See where that goes.

  31. Millennial Side Hustle*

    I’m not working a second full time job, but I am working one full time job and one side hustle that is quickly blowing up out of control (but not enough that I can quit my first job). Financially at this point it’s about $70/$30. I mostly use PTO from Job #1 to work Job #2, plus nights and weekends. It’s definitely tough on me and probably does affect my performance at both jobs, especially since they’re both busy during the same time of year. The problem is, the salary at Job #1 is not enough for me to live. I’m not saying it’s not a livable wage to someone, but I can’t seem to make it work. I need the benefits but I need to bring in about $10K more per year just to pay all by bills and have a little set aside. The real solution is to job search so I can eventually quit both jobs, but at this point I’m way too exhausted to add that on.

    1. OE Analyst*

      Having two jobs is a a great way to find financial independence. It takes some strategy and long term planning, though.

      First, you want to have a “job 1” for at least a year. Master your tasks, automate as much work as you can, and avoid unnecessary meetings as much as possible. Do not volunteer to go “above and beyond” in any capacity. Work to keep the job, not advance your “career”.

      Once you have that baseline set up, and hopefully some PTO, get yourself a “job 2”. Use PTO for job one during your initial few weeks at job 2. Set up the same baseline for job 1. Rinse and repeat until you’re at capacity.

      1. linger*

        Although, and this is the biggest problem with advocating “over-employment” as a strategy, working “at capacity” is sustainable only until life happens, which is to say, statistically, not sustainable in the long term for anyone, and not sustainable in the medium term for most.
        Of course, one other problem with advocating “over-employment” as a strategy is that it leads managers to believe, falsely, that is the most likely cause for underperformance.

  32. --*

    I’m often baffled by how badly managers want to understand *why* an employee is not meeting expectations. Don’t get me wrong, I understand a little curiosity, but obsessing over whether or not someone has a second job is a waste of time. Manage them properly at their first job and if they let other things impede their success, manage them out.

    1. MsM*

      Because if it is something in the manager’s power to address or that might cause similar problems for the next employee (e.g. poor training), they want to be able to fix that? And if it is just this particular person, it’s good to know that so you don’t have to waste time trying to figure out if it’s an internal/systemic problem?

    2. Funtimes*

      I agree that the concept of a manager’s power to address an employee possibly having a second job seems to come up a lot here. I also find it oddly specific.

      Not sure where the conversation goes from there.

    3. dulcinea47*

      My guess is it’s because in reality, people don’t get fired very easily, even when they probably should be. Having a Big Lie would give a clear reason for a firing as opposed to “just not performing very well”.

    4. Lacey*

      They want it to be a second job because that would be EASY to fix.

      Having an employee with poor reading comprehension or an inexplicable inability to prepare for deadlines is harder.

    5. Artemesia*

      How much time do I want to put into helping an employee improve their skills if the real problem is they are slacking on my job because they are doing another? It is this situation that makes the awful constant camera observation, key stroke nightmares seem reasonable. If the employee is WFH it is very hard to know if their mediocre performance is slacking or incompetence.

    6. Kevin Sours*

      Because, like it or not, how much grace we are inclined to extend to somebody struggling depends on why they are struggling. Most people are going to instinctively be a lot more sympathetic to the person unexpectedly providing care for a loved one who’s had a medical emergency than they are someone staying up late to compete in video game tournaments. Even if the distractions and sleep depravation plays out largely the same.

      There is still some wisdom in the realization that we can’t really have the details on someone’s life in order to really make the distinctions we’d like to make (the person working two jobs may very well be doing it because they are struggling to support family members that need help). But the impulse is really understandable.

  33. Lost academic*

    LW1: I don’t have the same condition but am extremely pale and do also redeem early, was is very apparent. My solution unfortunately has been, particularly when I need to not have it send any messages, really work on makeup solutions. I shouldn’t have to but we’ve also had lots of discussions here about how there’s a strong cultural belief that women aren’t professionally dressed without some makeup. Nonsense, really, but we are players in the world we have even while trying to change it.

    but also just your boss sucks.

  34. Richey*

    #4
    I disagree with Allison minorly here the amount of slack I’m willing to give is a lot more to someone having a hard time compared to someone being deceitful and committing serious violations. But you just have to assume someone is acting in good faith unless there is clear evidence otherwise because the alternative is impossible to work with.

  35. Tradd*

    I flush very easily. I always have. I’ve always gotten overheated easily, plus I have “resting b**ch face.” I’m also a woman of a certain age, so there’s extra cause to get overheated. People will think I’m mad at them when I’m just hot. It’s annoying. I can really sympathize with LW #1. Her boss is just bananapants!

  36. Llellayena*

    #1: I’m guessing Marie hasn’t been through menopause yet? Because my understanding (anecdotally, I haven’t been through it yet either) is that hot flashes can cause sudden flushing and are just as not controllable as the LW’s medical condition. I’d LOVE for Marie to complain about “unprofessionalism” due to flushing to someone going through menopause. Not only would there be an age-related discrimination claim but there might just be a very vocal, high-volume response that might just get the point across that it’s NOT CONTROLLABLE.

    Oh, and if you haven’t yet, tell Marie directly that it’s a medical condition that is not under your control but that does not affect your ability to do your job effectively. That’ll give you a stronger base when/if you go later to HR because she can’t say she didn’t know when she was retaliating against you.

    1. Clisby*

      You can’t assume this. I’m 71 and went through menopause long ago – I never had hot flashes, flushing, or night sweats – even though the internet seemed intent on assuring me I would. Sometimes people get lucky.

  37. ScottW*

    FWIW, #3 just happened to a friend. He came in to an interview with experience, after being told that salaries were flexible, then heard that everyone in that position starts at the bottom, and got an entry-level offer. He did exactly what Alison suggested, held his breath while the managers talked, and HR came up to what he wanted.

  38. dulcinea47*

    I’m wondering if LW#1 has had a blunt conversation with this manager. Because regardless of hierarchy, she needs to be told up front that constantly focusing on your appearance is garbage. It’s rude, and tells her nothing about actual job performance, and she’s making herself look like a huge jerk. I would absolutely be asking her why she is so laser focused on appearance.

    1. linger*

      That does not sound like a career-enhancing conversation to have with a manager who is already looking to find fault.

    2. linger*

      I mean, OP1 could conceivably get away with a response along the lines of
      “So what specific actionable advice do you have?”
      but anything more pointed is not going to land well at all.

  39. el l*

    OP1:
    It’s unfair, and you can hold your head confident and high as you do it, BUT – you’re going to have to leave this job.

    Marie is an extreme example of a certain type of sales/client-rep. The type who has to have everything perfect, and cannot abide by normal human imperfections for outsiders. Based on what you’ve said, she’s not only told you she’s not just one of these, she takes it to the next level beyond just having a conspicuously perfect appearance – she expects it without fail of her people. She’s also made clear via repeated words and deeds that she cannot understand how you can deliver for clients and be imperfect.

    This will not change. That’s just how these people do.

    Go to HR if you like, but you’re never going to have a good relationship with this boss. You can do the job, but she can’t see that, and that’s not your fault. The only question is whether the whole org is like this and you can transfer – or if you’re just going to have to find a different place to do your thing.

  40. Lacey*

    LW1 – I’m sorry your boss is being so WEIRD about this.

    I don’t have the same issue – but my blushing is completely disconnected from whether or not I feel embarrassed. I might be dying of humiliation & not blush at all or I might be completely calm & have my face turn bright red out of nowhere.

    I have no control over it and I often can’t even tell it’s happening.

    I do wonder if different framing would help? I used to say that my face blushes randomly and people would kind have a lingering attitude that I must secretly be upset and trying to lie about it.

    But when I change it to, “My face gets flushed easily” a one letter difference, people assume it’s medical. And I mean, it has to be, but I don’t have a diagnosis that’s just a little language change that makes them think of me being too warm instead of too awkward.

    1. Hyaline*

      Yes! “Blush” makes people think it’s emotional; “flush” puts people in mind of an uncontrolled physical reaction to who knows what (medication, temperature, allergens…)

  41. Hyaline*

    LW1, I think this is a great strategy 95% of the time: “My strategy has always been to act as if the blushing is not happening, and most people take that cue from me after a short while.” But it looks like here, it’s backfiring a bit–Marie may well believe that “blush=discomfort,” and she has therefore decided that you are uncomfortable with her, with your job, with your clients. I’ll reiterate that that’s not right or fair! However, if you haven’t ever directly addressed it, it might be worth doing so now, either before or in conjunction with going to HR: “Hey, I flush a lot, but it has nothing to do with embarrassment or discomfort. It’s just a benign medical thing–bodies, amirite?” And moving forward, though I think just ignoring it is spot on most of the time, perhaps in some situations proactively addressing it–say, with new managers who might misread it–might be a good idea.

  42. That Crazy Cat Lady*

    LW1:

    I’m sorry, but Marie is cuckoo. I can understand her – MAYBE – being a little concerned if she thinks you’re just freaking out anytime you interact with someone and is therefore worried about how client interactions will go.

    But, by your own account, she has heaps of evidence to the contrary. Clients love you, coworkers love you, you’re doing a great job by all accounts.

    So. Marie is either very ignorant or very cruel. I’m going to go with the second one because there is absolutely no reason for her to be digging in her heels in this much – so far to even potentially put you on a PIP! – for doing a good job while you happen to have a red face, which is induced by a medical condition that you can’t control.

  43. Just Thinkin' Here*

    LW 3 – while I wouldn’t dismiss the organization as a whole, it sounds like based on HR practices, this is not the right position for you. Given your experience, I would hold out for a higher graded position where your salary is not the top of the range but closer to the middle. You could have a discussion with the hiring manager and note that given the salary offer you were made, this position appears too junior for your expertise, can he adjust the seniority to a higher graded position?

  44. Glazed Donut*

    LW3, I was in a similar position earlier this year. I applied and interviewed for a job with no posted salary (typical for the field, unfortunately). I was flat-out asked by the hiring manager what my salary range was, I told her, we continued with more interviews, they called my references….and then offered me at $10k below the bottom of my range. I was told that “we know you’re qualified but for this position, this is the highest we can offer for this particular role.” Felt like such a bait and switch. They wouldn’t budge on other areas, either – changing the title to something nicer for me (costs $0 for them) or revising the job description, both of which (title and JD) had changed since my first interview. A whole cluster.
    I was unemployed at the time and didn’t want to take the job – I wanted a paycheck but this was one of a few warning signs from the org – and luckily was able to back out before the I had to sign a contract. If you’re in a position to walk away, I would, especially if there are other warning signs that this org isn’t really doing things the right way.

  45. merlinite*

    #1 – I can’t say I’ve noticed someone blush ever and thought about whether they were nervous or shy or in love or any emotion. I guess I might notice if someone’s face is red but wouldn’t really consider why that is. My face gets red when I’m sweaty or have just come in from the cold or my skin is just irritated for some reason. I’d usually just assume something like that or a skin condition. I can’t think of a time I’ve seen someone’s face be red and thought “they are blushing”.

  46. Ann Onymous*

    It wasn’t clear to me from the letter if Marie is aware that OP has a medical condition that’s causing this. It still wouldn’t be acceptable for Marie to try to police OP’s face the way she is if there weren’t a medical condition in play, but holding someone to a weird and unreasonable standard of professionalism is garden variety bad boss behavior whereas knowingly harassing someone for a medical condition would be cartoon villain level bad boss behavior. If Marie is just a garden variety bad boss, she’d likely back off if she knew this was a medical condition.

  47. Anne Shirley Blythe*

    LW1, pleeaase update us. Marie is tactless and narrow-minded. I am so sorry.

    Do you have a good rapport with the person(s) above Marie? (fingers crossed) It might be helpful to go to them as well and in a “just the facts” manner, relay what has been happening.

  48. Muffy*

    For LW4: watch out for fake workers. The not turning cameras on is a huge indicator. When someone won’t turn on their camera take that as a red flag, especially if it happens more than once. Common in tech sector – the person who “applied” for the job is not the person doing the work (if they’re doing any at all). Sometimes it gets farmed out to a bunch of random people. It’s a big security risk. There are lots of articles about it. Hopefully your HR has ways to screen.

    1. linger*

      No. LW4 has observed underperformance, which should be managed as exactly that.
      To that end, LW4 may need to implement better, or more frequent, measures of task performance.
      However, “butt on seat/ face in front of camera” is not a reliable measure of task performance; it can only address (and feed) LW4’s tendency to suspect conspiracy, which is not healthy.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Thank you!

        My team is mostly remote, and we are very much a cameras off kind of group. It is NOT a red flag. The red flag is not getting the work done on time or getting it done on time but with low quality.

        My team gets high-quality work done on time and with cameras off.

        There are “lots of articles” about the few instances where it has actually happened. People write articles about it because it’s so rare, not because it’s so common.

  49. Area Woman*

    LW1- I have a similar issue but it is not as bad. However, I did have a manager tell me once that “having a red face was unprofessional”. I normally wore makeup, but this was during the pandemic and I was an essential worker in pharmaceutical manufacturing so I was in the office 100%. I stopped wearing makeup because we all had to use homemade masks at the time and reuse them so much it didn’t make sense to put makeup on. I also had comments from other people that I looked like was sunburned.

    FWIW I did ask HR if having a red face was unprofessional and they said no. That manager was actually fired sometime later for being a glassbowl and bully, so I am pretty much assuming this manager here is the same. She sounds terrible.

    As for managing it, I wear full coverage makeup with green correction if needed, and usually wear crew neck or mock/turtlenecks all the time at work. I know this sucks that I feel like I need to manage it this way but people comment and its distracting. I would prefer to prevent it from showing up.

  50. Sharon*

    LW1: I’d ask Marie specifically what she’d like to see you change. Good managers should give specific feedback. On the off chance it’s not your face color, you’ll know what to work on. Otherwise, you can remind her that your face color is not within your control and ask her to stop bringing it up (and go to HR!)

    1. DJ*

      Yep Alison doesn’t need to run a competition she can just declare Marie is as surely no one else can top this!

  52. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    I really hope we get an update on #1. I cannot understand this boss and why she is fixating on the blushing when there is so much evidence about how good an employee OP is.

    1. Aggretsuko*

      Because red face makes Marie “uncomfortable” and thus Marie wants her gone. It’s as awful and simple as that.

  53. OE Analyst*

    For #4, I don’t think it’s fair or reasonable to assume the employee is working a second job. There are plenty of reasons why they may be underperforming. In fact, as an over-employed person with 2 remote jobs, I would argue that the underperforming is probably due to either incompetence or issues outside of the office. Holding down 2 or more gigs is relatively difficult and those who do it long term typically don’t get on either employer’s radar for missing deadlines, etc.

  54. FSU*

    OP1, you have my sympathies. I often turn red at the slightest provocation, though to a lesser degree than you what you experience. I’m so sorry and angry you’re being mistreated, and I hope this will be resolved in your favor.

    Please send in an update when you can.

  55. HowDoesSheDoItAll?*

    Question 1 — I also have a medical condition that causes flushing on my face and neck — kind of like large, splotchy hives — a several times a day. People comment and ask about it A LOT. Maybe I missed it in your question, but have you told your manager you have a medical condition? That’s how I shut people down. And I 100% agree with Gretchen’s answer. Talk to HR.

  56. I don't mean to be rude, I'm just good at it*

    I am not one to put my hand into your pocket to see what you can or cannot afford, but a flash drive is probably under $20.

    You can have a backup for your work and free up room on your computer. You cannot fix the past, but consider this in the future.

    1. fhqwhgads*

      Nah, the lesson is not to buy a flash drive. The lesson is work stuff should be saved to work’s network, not your personal device. Ever. Even if they don’t give you a device (which is crappy but happens), at minimum daily, work stuff saved to a work-owned location. Consider that for the future.

  57. Feen*

    LW 1, I can relate about blushing! I’m sorry you are enduring this. Tell your ridiculous boss to stop commenting on your skin color.

  58. SusieQQ*

    I had a report that was working two jobs (confirmed after I terminated him that he had worked for Apple the whole time he had worked for us). To me it was pretty obvious he was working two jobs, and multiple people suspected it, but to Allison’s point it didn’t actually matter. Things that tipped me off:

    – Taking an unusually long time to respond to Slack messages (like, 5+ hours)
    – Doing work in the middle of the night
    – Frequently not attending meetings despite RSVPing to them
    – Being a bit too eager to tell me what he was working on, even if I hadn’t asked. It had this vibe of “Oh, hi! I’m definitely working! Let me list all the things I’m working on. Oh, you weren’t going to ask about that? Let me tell you anyway! I am definitely working, I am definitely not not working!”
    – Giving a lot of unsolicited details in his excuses, which can be a sign of deception. For example, I’ve had a lot of employees (including this guy) need to miss work because they said they had Covid. But he’s the only one who ever sent me a picture of his positive test.
    – The excuses for missing work were unbelievable and the kind of thing where you think “either he’s lying, or he’s the unluckiest guy on earth.” Everything from Covid to getting married to hemorrhoids to car accidents.
    – Saying that he had biweekly doctor’s appointments that could ONLY be during one of our important team meetings, but failing to ever produce any documentation from his doctor despite being repeatedly asked by myself and HR.

  59. DJ*

    LW#1 well done for overcoming concern about being yourself and getting yourself out there despite your blushing. Sounds like you have many likeable enquires and are doing well in your job.
    It’s outrageous Marie is treating you the way she has and hopefully HR will do something about it. Why should you have to have surgery for something that doesn’t shorten your life or impact on you medically or physically and doesn’t cause you physical pain.
    Lots of ppl have appearances that idiots may consider causes issues with clients. Eg a mark on one’s face, a turn in one’s eye etc. I have a turn in my eye and I’ve never had a manager say anything and only once a client/customer abuse me over it and no other customer has said anything.
    Perhaps if a customer comments develop a dismissive sentence like “ignore the blushing it just happens for no reason, I’m not embarrassed”

  60. CHRISTOPHER FRANKLIN*

    LW#1 is in an awkward situation: like an earlier letter where an employee does an involuntary eye-roll, outside observers are always going to view it as a personal judgement and criticism unless it is explained. There is an experience that most Black men have had where one gets on an elevator or train and women of a certain class and race involuntarily clutch her bags closely to their body. I don’t think they are conscious of it and have no conscious evil intent but it is off putting and changes the environment. I’m not sure there is a simple solution since people tend to judge how friendly people are by their external reactions i.e. she doesn’t make eye contact, she shivers, she rolls her eyes, she turns beet red… ah, I don’t think she is comfortable with me.

    1. Matt*

      Yes, that one came to my mind too as with the “eye roller” I was quite shocked how bad she was piled on since obviously no one believed her it was really involuntary.

  61. Kate*

    LW1: sorry if this is redundant as I came to late to read all the comments, but green toned makeup can really reduce visible redness as a last resort if HR lets you down, or to get by with your manager while you’re sorting this out. There are green toned primers to go under foundation or green toned powders–I believe Physicians Formula makes one. I’m sorry your manager is being such a jerk!

  62. Cam*

    I think LW#1 is unfortunately in “hire a lawyer” territory, because companies are unlikely to walk back a bad performance review without that, and the specifics of what protections are available are probably state specific.

  63. Crencestre*

    OP1: Have you told your manager that your blushing is due to a medical condition that’s beyond your control and does NOT reflect on your personal level of comfort with a client or a situation? Not only would explaining this help you to clear it up, but her reaction would tell you a LOT about her character. If she apologizes sincerely and never brings it up again, then fine. But if she gets defensive and angry (“You should have TOLD me before!”) – well, that would tell you that she’s embarrassed but is trying to turn the tables on you and make this into YOUR failing. Either way, you’d learn a lot about her – and how she’s likely to respond to future challenges.

  64. Overthinking It*

    Please, please, look Marie dead in the eye and say: “And what, exactly, would you gave me do different?” If she hedges and says something about “acting more confident” repeat the question , emphasizing “Exactly ” until SHE blushes! If she is bald enough to say blush less, ask for her advice on you can accomplish that. Or simply tell her it’s not blushing, it’s an f***ing hot flash! Turn tail, and walk away. (Can you tell this story made me livid?)

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