my boss treated me like her therapist … and it blew up

by Alison Green on November 12, 2024

Warning: contains mentions of a suicide threat.

A reader writes:

I had an insane boss situation a few years ago that still lives rent free in my head and I’d love to see if there’s anything you think I could have done differently. While I don’t think I’ll ever be in a situation quite like this ever again (one can only hope), I probably spend more time than is healthy thinking about how I should approach it if I’m ever thrust into a similar situation in the future.

My old manager, Lily, was originally a coworker and friend. We had both left the original job we worked at together, and I was miserable in my current role. So when she became the general manager for a new retail installation, she reached out about me joining her leadership team and I jumped at the opportunity to start fresh somewhere new.

Initially, our working relationship was good, albeit with very few boundaries. I realized pretty quickly that Lily had some narcissistic tendencies as a leader, and I was clearly her Golden Child. Another member of our leadership team was her scapegoat, who always got the blame for anything bad, and the last member got lost in the shuffle. It was a mess, but at the time I leaned into being the favorite because I was the only person who could talk sense into her and whose suggestions she would take seriously. This favoritism caused the boundaries to blur even more and I also started feeling anxious about what would happen if I fell out of favor, so I picked my battles very carefully and ultimately enabled a lot of very bad behavior.

Unfortunately for everybody, Lily’s partner left her, and she had to navigate a messy divorce and custody battle. Her mental health completely tanked, and it caused everything negative at work to ramp up tenfold.

I was still the favorite and the confidant, and this turned into me becoming, essentially, Lily’s work therapist. We spent hours locked in her office with her crying and telling me every detail of her personal life, and my anxiety reached a new high as I tried to navigate supporting her erratic and turbulent emotions while also picking up the slack of things she wasn’t doing at the store — things that were technically beyond my role and ability. Lily was terrified of losing her job and she knew she was dropping balls, so I felt like it was my responsibility to keep everything running smoothly. I was also terrified that if I upset her, she would turn on me and fire me. At the time, I thought that I was doing the kind thing, the right thing. I now recognize that I was in an impossible situation, and I was setting myself on fire trying to keep everyone else warm.

Lily eventually shared with me that she was suicidal and said the only thing keeping her going was my support and friendship. So now, on top of feeling responsible for my job, her job, the store, and her emotional well-being, I found myself in a position where it was my job to literally keep her alive. I was wildly stressed out, so afraid that I’d say or do the wrong thing and then she’d die, and it would be my fault.

The culmination of all of this was that one day, on her day off, when I was in charge of the building, she texted me and said that if I didn’t get to her home immediately, she was going to kill herself. She needed me to come stop her. I didn’t have a car that day, my husband had dropped me off, so I gave the keys to the building to one of my employees, and called an Uber to rush to her home.

I should have called 911, but the state we are in has some pretty intense laws around wellness calls, and I worried that if I called and she got put into an involuntary hold, it would financially ruin her and make her life crumble even more. So I rushed over, broke in through an open window because her door was locked and she wasn’t answering, found her unharmed, removed all of the pills from her general vicinity, and then pulled her sobbing, terrified child out of the closet she had barricaded herself in when her mom’s episode started. I stayed for hours watching Disney movies, trying to take care of and soothe both of them.

Lily ended up going on a forced paid medical leave because her out-of-state boss realized something was off and called me, and I spilled everything. She was appalled that I hadn’t raised things with HR sooner.

The end of the story is kind of anti-climactic: Lily went on leave, I took over as temporary GM, my mental health improved some because I wasn’t seeing her every day, and she was finally in intense daily therapy instead of relying on me. She ended up coming back after her leave but immediately leaving for a new job because she felt betrayed by the company for forcing her on leave. Once she wasn’t my boss and didn’t hold my livelihood in her hands, I let her know via text that while I wished her the best and genuinely hoped she’d be okay, I couldn’t continue our friendship to protect my own mental health. We haven’t had contact since.

Typing this out, I wouldn’t believe any of that had actually happened in real life if I hadn’t lived it myself. I recognize that I had a lot of missteps along the way and that I shouldn’t have let things go as far as they did … but I’m having a hard time determining exactly what I should have done differently. I still have a lot of guilt and anxiety around that period of my life. What would you have advised I do had I reached out while this was happening?

HR, HR, HR.

This was all so above your pay grade, and you got drawn in at a level that an employee should never be expected to take on.

I suspect there was a frog-in-the-boiling-water effect here, where things escalated gradually enough that it was hard to spot when you needed to send up a cry for help to someone above you … which is often how dysfunctional workplaces evolve (and dysfunctional relationships too, for that matter). If you’d been dropped into that final terrible day out of nowhere, you likely would have realized immediately that this wasn’t something you should or could handle on your own … but things deteriorated gradually enough that by the time that day came, you had already been primed and wired to see your role as Save Lily.

But really, once Lily had shared with you that she was suicidal, that was a sign that you were in over your head, that she was looking to you for things an employee absolutely cannot provide, and that you needed to loop in someone else in your company (presumably HR). Since you’re struggling with what to do if anything remotely similar happens in the future, hopefully it’s good news that you can simplify it all dramatically: it was not your role to fix what was happening with Lily, and the right step in the future would be to alert someone whose job that actually was.

It will also never be your role to do someone else’s job for them on top of your own to cover for them; if you’re ever in that situation again, you can let those balls drop. If your presence is the only thing keeping someone else stable (or employed), that’s a sign that the solution you’ve landed on is the wrong one.

I do think it’s worth noting that you fell into this role not just because you believed your job was to save Lily, but also because you thought your job was to save everyone else too: you stayed in a bad situation because you were the one who could talk sense into Lily and who she would listen to — no matter the personal costs to yourself, and no matter how many indications that you’d never be able to fix the fundamental conditions there, only small things around the edges. I strongly believe there’s a certain personality type that is way too willing to walk into that role — to embrace it, in fact — while most other people would take a look and nope out of there. So I do think it’s worth asking whether there have been other times where the pull of being The One Who Can Fix Things has led you to stay in bad situations longer than you should have (and perhaps whether your family dynamics early on set you up for that assignment), and to spend some time thinking about how you want to handle it the next time you feel that pull.

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  1. MsM*

    I’d also like to add that this sounds like a really traumatic situation, and maybe it’s time to set down the grief and regret in favor of getting yourself some care for dealing with that if you’re not already.

    1. Mid*

      That was my thought as well. Even if it’s been a while and you think you’re “over it,” it could be helpful to talk to a professional about what happened.

      1. MotherofaPickle*

        This +100.

        I had a similar situation with an employee. First thing I did next day was call EAP and schedule an appointment with a therapist to help me process WTF just happened.

        It helped.

    2. OP*

      Yeah…I’ve thought about therapy, but it’s so expensive. Maybe at some point, I can recognize that I would benefit from talking to a professional, but I also know I’ve healed some, at least enough for the wound to scab over- I used to constantly think about her, now it’s less frequent. Clearly not 100% there yet, there’s just so much to unpack.

      I appreciate Alison’s response, I think in theory I already understood everything she was saying, but it’s kind of a relief for an unbiased third party to tell me that I effed up by not immediately looping in HR (or the police, when things escalated)- I definitely am The One Who Can Fix Things, so it’s kind of a relief to hear someone say that I never could have fixed that. Next time I’ll try to remember how absolutely escalated things can get if I try to fix things that are wildly outside my scope

      1. Echo*

        It makes me sad to hear you frame this as “I effed up” – this was a really tough situation and not your fault.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Agreed. OP, it sounds like you thought of Lily primarily as your friend, so it makes sense that you didn’t see going to HR as a solution. We all need an outside perspective like Alison’s sometimes, particularly when it comes to recognizing and breaking lifelong patterns.

          Therapy has been helpful for me (I had a new therapist comment, “I can tell you’ve had a lot of therapy” which is… good?), but it isn’t the only form of support/care that can help. Talking with faith or community leaders, finding an online community struggling with similar issues, journaling, the possibilities are numerous.

          If you’re like me, there are a lot of friends you support when they’re going through a tough time, but you don’t ask them to reciprocate. It’s hard for me to be vulnerable and admit when it’s me who needs help, but it’s an incredible way to deepen an strengthen those relationships.

        2. Snow Globe*

          Agree – and that is not what Alison said *at all*. Contacting HR would have been the best thing to do, but that doesn’t mean you effed up. Hindsight is 20/20; you don’t need to take any blame for not seeing in the moment how things were going to go.

          1. Observer*

            You’re right. But I think I understand what OP is saying.

            I think that part of why they have been ruminating so much is the thought that *maybe* they could have done something different, something better, SOMETHING to create a different outcome. And hearing that “Nope, nothing *you* could have done to get a better outcome” and “The thing you should have done was NOT to try to fix it but kick it upstairs” is incredibly freeing.

            So, OP, I want to agree *completely* that you did not mess up. But I am *so glad* that you now realize that this was not your job and never could have been. And that you will take this lesson forward and protect yourself (and everyone around you) by not trying to be the fixer of situations that are not yours to fix.

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          Agreed. You didn’t eff up, OP; you were doing your best in the the worst, most rigged game ever.

        4. Irish Teacher.*

          Yes, I think the LW is blaming herself far too much here. This is a situation I think most people would struggle with to some degree.

      2. MsM*

        There are hotlines for talking through this stuff, too – I’ll give others who are more directly involved in that work a chance to chime in, but it’s a place to start.

      3. Genevieve*

        OP, from the way you wrote this, it’s clear that you intellectually know what happened and why. But it also sounds like emotionally you’re still stuck in it in some ways. I hope you can find a way to move past that part, be it from seeing all our responses here, therapy, or maybe just more time (or a combo?). Best of luck!

      4. Madtown Maven*

        Hi, OP. I’ve been in a couple similar job situations over the years. Something that helped me, and may help you, is working with someone who can assist you in figuring out WHY you let yourself get into this situation. There may be some deep stuff to figure out, or less-deep stuff. Your future mental health is worth spending some money on.

        1. Christina*

          Just a side note – I think framing it as “how/why did you let yourself get into this situation” can be the start to a path of self-blame. Maybe it’s my own stuff speaking, but in some situations like this, there’s power in realizing you didn’t “let” anything happen, someone smashed through all the boundaries and self-protection you tried to set up and it’s not your fault that they did that.

          1. Elle*

            I’m so glad someone said this (and so well)! It’s great to reflect on a situation and learn from it, but we cannot beat ourselves up over things. It’s miserable, and it isn’t productive anyway.

            1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

              The thing is that you do need to recognise where you went wrong so that you can learn from your mistake. OP’s mistake was thinking she could fix it, and not reporting the situation to HR or Lily’s manager. Now that she can see that, she can maybe start recognising similar situations where she’s in over her head and needs to have someone higher up taking over. Or at the very least, putting up some boundaries so that she doesn’t become Lily2’s therapist or ball-catcher so that management can see that Lily2 is dropping those balls and take appropriate action.

      5. Shenandoah*

        OP, I don’t want to diminish how terrible expensive therapy is/can be, but as a fellow The One Who Can Fix Things who has started unpacking it in therapy, it is truly astounding how much being that person has impacted my daily life and wellness. I really hope that it becomes an option for you.

        1. Grey Coder*

          +1. OP, see if you can find someone who will work with you for a fixed time, so you can budget and the expense isn’t open ended. My therapist works in blocks of six weeks.

        2. Not Your Sweetheart*

          I agree. Find a therapist who will work with your insurance to get you the most time for the least out-of-pocket cost. A friend’s insurance only covered 1 therapist visit per month, but her therapist recommended a few group sessions that were free or very inexpensive. Someone upthread also gave suggestions for other people to talk to. Please find someone (preferably trained) who can help you close this incident in you life. It was obviously traumatic for you, and you deserve to forgive yourself (because it wasn’t your fault).

        3. Butterfly Counter*

          I agree. I don’t know what your insurance/savings are like, but I’m another person who has found a lot of relief with therapy and medication. Like, a LOT. Worth way more than I’ve paid to get it.

          Some therapists have sliding scales based on income or need. And there might be some places that have less expensive options. This is a time to take an hour and do some research for affordable options. You might be surprised at what’s out there.

          (Seriously, that I’m doing somewhat okay this past week is all due to the mental health treatment I started earlier this year to get ready specifically for what this week might bring me.)

          Let me also say, just for the record, any time someone makes you responsible for their life or even starts hinting that they might take their life, THAT is the time to opt out and get professionals involved. “What you just said really worried me. Please let me know if you are seriously thinking about this and I will make some calls to get professionals involved.” If they’re just being manipulative, they’ll back off. If not, they’ll either stop making you responsible for their mental health OR say that they do need help and you can help them get it.

      6. Web of Pies*

        These things are so hard to let go of, especially if you people please or take a lot of responsibility for others onto yourself, which it sounds like you did in this situation (though definitely coerced to some degree).

        One thing that has helped me with similar situations is to consider my ongoing angst about these things as a form of pointless self-harm. Do you think Lily spends one single second fretting about the situation she caused, and the harm she caused to you? I highly doubt it, so why are you? I know, much easier said than done, but you continuing to mull and wonder and fret about this insane situation is only causing harm to you. Put her in the memory hole and chalk it up to a damaged person taking advantage of a kind one.

      7. Mad Harry Crewe*

        The amount that I think about former bosses is, functionally, zero. Unless I need something from them or they come up as a sideline in a silly story I’m telling (rare).

        You deserve peace. You deserve to let Lily, and this job, and this whole situation go. You deserve care and support.

        Yes, you’re doing a bit better. It’s scabbed over. But you’re still beating yourself up about this very messed up situation, and it’s still occupying a chunk of your thoughts. I hope you can find the space to give yourself support in putting this behind you.

      8. TinkerTailorSolderDye*

        Hey now, you didn’t eff up.

        You didn’t. Yes, there are things that should and could have been done much sooner, but like Alison said, it’s a Frog-In-Boiling-Water effect; you were doing what you could with what you had the bandwidth for.

        You are a good person who did their honest best. And now you have the knowledge, the mental framework, and the tools to make sure you are able to handle things in the future. Therapy does help, and yes, it is expensive, but if you’re still in a good job with at least decent insurance, it’s worth looking at their EAP or what your insurance does cover. The One Who Can Fix Things is a hell of a rough role to carry; I know it way more than I’d like to, so you have all of my understanding and sympathies.

        It’s also worth looking at what your state or local government has available for therapy services; there are a lot more options out there these days.

        It’s gonna be okay; you’re a pretty awesome human.

      9. Generic Name*

        I encourage you to look into if your company provides EAP services. My company’s EAP provides 12 free therapy sessions per year. The blogger Captain Awkward also has a post on how to access therapy when you are not independently wealthy. I’m sorry you’re going through this.

        1. ToS*

          ^This. EAP can be a good start. I wish Worker’s Comp was a little more transparent for mental health difficulties that might arise from this.

          This abusive dynamic sounds like some of the roles in dysfunctional families – so IF you have survived an alcoholic relationship (parent, sibling, significant other) Al-Anon* covers these dynamics for almost free. The first part is recognizing that you cannot control the person who is at the heart of the dysfunction, but ohhhhhh boy will that person make you think you are The Responsible One. OP you are far from alone, and as your Boss, your ex-friend is the person most responsible in this situation, as they controlled your livelihood through flattery and coercion. Learn what you can from this so you can stay on the healthy side of work relationships for the future. People are also learning from what you have shared and the followup conversations.

          *There are other groups to help people become unmeshed with a person who is consumed/addicted, like Nar-Anon, this version (Al-Anon) is more available/easier to locate.

      10. Paint N Drip*

        OP, I do not think you effed up. I think you did your best in an impossible situation. I know how mind-numbingly scary it is when someone you care about talks about suicide, and how all the options seems so so bad (5150, losing custody, etc.) when other things in life are shaky. I’m glad you were given some more tools to use in case you run into this (or anything close) again but I really hope you can let go of your perception of failure – there is NO way you could have fixed this issue yourself without any repercussions to anyone. Be well and enjoy your new career path outside of retail :)

      11. Elizabeth West*

        OP, this is not on you. She was way out of line to put you in that position, not just when she was in distress but everything that came before it. She was the manager — it was her job to manage, not your job to manage her.

      12. Elle*

        I just want to echo everyone else’s sentiment that you did not in any way screw this up. A wild situation was thrown at you. And we should never estimate the power of the boiling frog effect, especially on people who pride themselves on being able to handle/fix things and rise to the occasion.

      13. Specks*

        You did not eff up. And you desperately need therapy. Because this kind of stuff doesn’t happen in isolation — what she did was pretty textbook narcissistic and emotionally abusive behavior (threatening suicide is just classic). You need to learn how to deal with people like that and how to set boundaries, or you’ll keep setting yourself on fire to keep others warm, as you so aptly put it. You likely have some sort of family history that made you adapt to situations like this by responding this way, and need to work through that.

        See if therapy is truly expensive. That’s a lot of people’s impression, but since Obamacare regulations, insurance covers individual therapy and lots of therapists take insurance. So if you have health insurance, it will likely be free or very cheap for you, along the same lines as a primary care doc copay (maybe $30). If you don’t have insurance (get insurance!! Again, see Obamacare), at least start by pulling lots of books on boundary setting and emotional abuse. ‘Drama Free’, ‘Boundaries’, and ‘Set Boundaries, Find Peace’ are commonly recommended. Good luck!

      14. FunkyMunky*

        honestly, I just want to give you a massive hug and tell you that you’re amazing, and please take care of yourself!

      15. Baked Alaska*

        OP, it hurts my heart to hear you frame this as ‘I effed up.’

        I don’t know your story, but generally when we (the personality type Alison described: those of us either born lacking a layer or seven of emotional skin, and/or shaped by trauma to be set up for the assignment of taking care of everyone) find ourselves in a situation like this, we’re doing the best we can.

        I was, when it happened to me. (CN: mention of suicide threat) I was dating a man who made me so miserable that my weight dropped to a point where you could see my bones. When I finally broke up with him, he threatened to kill himself. We had both lost people we loved to suicide, so I called his best friend immediately.

        His best friend…kind of shrugged. Apparently this was just the way my ex behaved in breakups. Knowing that let me lay my load down, fairly quickly.

        I wish I could give you a similar gift of relief. Reading your story, all I could think is ‘what a brave and compassionate person OP is.’

        Anyone would be lucky to have a friend like you. Anyone would be lucky to know you.

        I hope you can see yourself as we see you, and give your past self some grace. I think you did so well, under such duress.

        1. Observer*

          His best friend…kind of shrugged. Apparently this was just the way my ex behaved in breakups. Knowing that let me lay my load down, fairly quickly.

          Ugh. Your ex was gross. But I’m glad that his friend told you the truth. I can imagine that it helped you lay down the load.

          The same is true for you, OP. Lilly’s reaction to the response of the company (which was compassionate and kind, and totally correct) should help you lay to rest any notion that *you* have any responsibility for what went down.

      16. Amy*

        OP, I see myself in you. I believe I was raised that I had to be the problem solver, my parent’s rescuer, and it spills over into other parts of life. I’m the only office worker for a small biz and I have gradually accepted every role, every expectation from secretary to sales to accounting to safety to IT. While it can be good job security, I get overwhelmed by the expectations that I immediately know or be an expert in *everything*. That being said, it might be worth checking out the books “Codependent No More” and “Boundaries.” That’s what I’m working on.

      17. Hashtag Destigmatize Therapy*

        Hi OP, it is 100% your decision whether or not to go to therapy, and you certainly know better than a random stranger like me does if therapy is right for you. What I *will* tell you is that if I went through even a fraction of what you’ve been through, I would certainly need therapy. Make of that what you will.

      18. Ellie*

        From what I read of your story, Lily is still alive, her child is still alive, and she’s in a better place now than she was when you were dealing with her. You therefore did not in any way, eff up. There might have been another path through it, but you got to a pretty reasonable outcome, given the circumstances.

      19. Mouse named Anon*

        I am not trying to be rude with this question but have you actually looked into the costs? Even with bad insurance often therapy is $20-40 a session. Often the first session can be pricey as they are assessing your needs and after that its a fixed rate. Also there are places that offer sliding scales. I worked in the mental health field for many years. Please try and call around to some places.

        1. Ellie*

          Hmm. This is going to be dependent on where you live, but where I am, a 45 minute session is $200. That is with a small private health discount included. I know there is government funding for a wide range of conditions, but you generally need to have a diagnosis to access those, and those can run upwards of 1,500 to 2k, depending on the tests. There are waiting lists to access free treatment if you have a low income, but my cousin was on one of those for 6 years before she was able to get help for her daughter. It’s always worth investigating of course, because there are free services out there, but the mental health system overall is struggling.

          1. Ellie*

            I should have said, the initial session was $350, and it was longer. $200 is the regular price, of a monthly therapy session with a psychologist in our area.

      20. I know this song!*

        If therapy is out of reach, I highly, highly, cannot highly enough recommend The Little Shaman: On Narcissists & Toxic Personalities podcast series. I recently got out of a relationship where I was expected to be responsible for managing every aspect of their well-being (100% to the frog in boiling water analogy) and this podcast has helped me tremendously in understanding what happened, why, and how it was not at all my fault.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      Agreed. The OP should not blame themselves for how they handled the situation – they did the best they could with what they knew. I think the OP was insightful to realize that the manager was treating them as the Golden Child, and to try to use that situation for the good of the team. I’m sure it started off pretty innocuously, and it would have been very hard to say any particular point was the bright line when HR should have been approached. Like being nibbled to death by ducks, I expect.

      It sounds like the OP carries some trauma from the experience, and that it would be a good idea to work through that with a therapist.

    5. Ellis Bell*

      Not only was this a no win situation, (as in, she believes the company betrayed her by making her take urgently needed medical leave?!), but a literal life was on the line, while her child was in the house. Hugely traumatic and unfair situation even for emergency professionals; they would never be expected to unilaterally save their own bosses. This was especially the case since OP had been carefully coached to do as she orders, not to do what is actually best for her. I don’t think this was intentional of her, more she was just a very poor person to have given power over others Intentional or not, this was emotional blackmail.

  2. doriette*

    “the pull of being The One Who Can Fix Things has led you to stay in bad situations longer than you should have”

    Well, dammit. Not the words I *wanted* to read today, but they just might be the words I *needed*.

    1. SMH*

      Same, AAM truly reading the readers with this one. And always with the fine balance of compassion and gentle firmness.

    2. Lisa*

      This is the story of most of my issues. It was my familial role as a kid, and while in some ways it has served me well in terms of getting promotions and such at work, I don’t know how to stop. I’m working on it right now. But I hope LW considers this question deeply, perhaps with a therapist. They’re not just for when you’re suicidal, but also for when you find that the skills that have worked for you in the past are causing you problems in the present (or recent past) and if you’re not sure how you would have done things differently. If this is your first time dealing with someone with narcissistic traits, it can be hard to realize that you’re being sucked into their issues, but it sounds like the LW was aware of what that dynamic can look like but embraced it because of the need to save everybody, at the cost of her own health and well-being. Which is a situation I am all too familiar with. But which I’m trying to learn to deal with in a healthy way up front. Best of luck to everybody dealing with similar problems!

    3. OP*

      Yup- honestly, I needed to be called out like that, I appreciate Alison not mincing words.

      I mentioned this in another comments, but it’s kind of a relief for an unbiased third party to tell me that that was absolutely something I never could have fixed on my own. I’m going to try to remember the lesson next time I get pulled into something that’s well over my head when I feel the pressure to make it right myself.

      1. bamcheeks*

        OP, I totally read this as “what should I have done not to have got into this situation”, but reading your comments I think you were actually asking whether there was something else you should have done to have helped Lily? Oh no no no no. I am sorry that you still feel like was on you! It wasn’t. It never was. It was never a thing that was within your power.

        What you did do was help Lily’s child— that was amazing and I am very glad you responded to that emergency call. I hope you feel good about that.

        1. Happy*

          Yes!!! I also thought the questions was originally about how to avoid getting into that situation and not what could have been done to help Lily more.

        2. Observer*

          What you did do was help Lily’s child— that was amazing and I am very glad you responded to that emergency call. I hope you feel good about that.

          Yes. You were a hero to that poor child.

      2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I think another factor you need to add in is:
        “So when she became the general manager for a new retail installation, she reached out about me joining her leadership team and I jumped at the opportunity to start fresh somewhere new.”
        Did you feel like she “gave” you the job and you had a responsibility to HER personally to be a good employee?
        But that still doesn’t mean you owe her fealty.
        (Even if she threatened to quit and fill the building with cod if they didn’t hire you right quick and on the double, you still did not owe her more than doing a good job. It was a not a favor; it was a business decision.)

      3. Slow Gin Lizz*

        A friend of my recently told me about stress responses. Ok, we all know about fight or flight, and a lot of us know about freeze being a third one, but new to me was “fawn,” where it feels safer to appease the person causing you harm than to protect your own well-being. Very eye-opening to hear about this fourth one that explains so much.

        1. OP*

          Holy shit.

          I actually made a reference to fight or flight in another comment, but it felt wrong- I may have even deleted the phrase, I’m not sure. But Fawn…holy cow. That’s 1000% where I was, and definitely the fear response that I tend to the most- I am a fixed, I smooth things over. I fawn. Wow. That’s definitely something I’m going to read up more on, because that really hits the nail on the head. Thank you for sharing that.

          1. Judge Judy and Executioner*

            Hugs OP, I’m also The One Who Can Fix Things and have a fawn trauma response. Growing up I had an unstable parent and I tried to manage ALL the things from a young age, because I was trying to make things safe for me. If I did all of the animal care/chores/cleanup/whatever, I had a chance of safety from the wrath of the unstable parent. It has been really hard to work through things, I’ve been in therapy for several years now, and we are still unpacking this behavior. This includes getting to the root of its cause, and trying to create new patterns for what I can do instead. It’s not easy, but I’m making progress with recognizing I’m safe now and don’t have to be The One Who Can Fix Things to remain safe. I wish you the best <3

          2. Kat*

            Studies have shown women tend to respond to trauma with fawn and freeze more than fight or flight. Fawn can also be called collaboration. Basically you do wha you need to, to get along and survive a traumatic incident.

    4. Harper the Other One*

      This also hit me – I am definitely The One Who Can Fix Things in some areas of my life in ways that are not good for me. A good reminder to keep working on that.

  3. Not your typical admin*

    I’m so very sorry you faced that. It sounds so hard and traumatic. I was raised to be compliant and a fixer, so I can totally see where this situation escalated out of your control. Now I tend to push back pretty hard when I’m put in that situation. I’m happy to listen, and be a supportive friend/coworker/family member, but as soon as things start spiraling it’s time to bring in professional help.

    1. OP*

      This is something I need to learn how to do- I’m really bad at boundaries. I’m actually pretty proud of myself that I set one with Lily at the end of this particular experience, I felt sick with guilt for months that I “abandoned” her, but really, distance was the only thing that let me heal myself as much as I have.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        I say this as someone who tends to be come the crutch for semi-functional relatives and friends: You can’t be more invested in improving their situations than they are. You can’t drag people out of holes who are not ready to come out. Definitely take a hand if they reach one out to you, but if they’re not taking any initiative themselves, it’s not gonna work.

      2. Christina*

        Something someone told me recently when I started to say I was “bad at boundaries” with someone who was taking advantage – you are not responsible for their ignoring your boundaries. This was not your fault and you are not responsible for their actions.

      3. MigraineMonth*

        Bravo! That’s really hard to do, particularly after investing so much in her wellbeing, but you both did it and stuck with it.

      4. ferrina*

        Can I recommend Captain Awkward? The great Captain has a lot of good writing on what a boundary is and what it isn’t, and how to help yourself internalize the importance of boundaries.

        I’m really, really proud of you for breaking off your friendship with Lily. That was absolutely the right thing for both you and her, for all that it was incredibly hard.

      5. KitKat*

        OP, I highly recommend the book The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner.

        It is in some ways specifically about anger as an emotion (which may not feel like the most salient thing here for you), but more than that it’s about how in relationships with other people we tend to follow “dance steps” back and forth, and helping you understand what your steps are and where they’re coming from. It’s then incredibly helpful in laying out what you can and can’t do to get yourself out of the dance routine. It is ultimately about boundaries (what you can control vs. what you can’t, and how you talk to other people about it).

      6. Alicent*

        It’s REALLY hard. I have a friend who spirals and threatens suicide as a bluff for attention. I’ve started having to call it and say she needs to call the hotline or I will call for a wellness check. She’s suddenly better when I do that (once or twice a year) and I take a step back from our friendship when it happens. I was also raised to be a compliant people pleaser and only in my 40’s did I come to the realization that it was BS and started pushing back.
        I do know someone who committed suicide and sounds a lot like your friend. She was a professor who would randomly terrorize students (including me) into crying and panic attacks, and then flip into this bizarre, calming, maternal figure in the blink of an eye. We would try really hard not to get on her bad side so we didn’t get berated into a sense of helplessness and despair. She actually gave the graduation speech for the class ahead of mine because she was so nice to certain students she liked. She ended her life a year later. Some people expressed feeling like they did something wrong for not predicting it, but you can’t singlehandedly save someone from their own demons, especially when their wrath is pushing you away. Put on your own oxygen mask first is the best advice I can give.

      7. JJ*

        Dear OP, just…hugs, if you want them. What a terrifying ordeal. You sound like an incredibly kind and compassionate person, a wonderful support for the people around you. These are beautiful qualities! Please remember that you yourself are also someone in your life, just as worthy of the kindness you extend to the others around you. In the same way you respect the boundaries of others–you are also just as deserving of setting your boundaries, and having those boundaries respected.

      8. Empathy*

        A great book on working with boundaries is Setting Boundaries That Stick by Juliane Taylor Shore. I’m a therapist and I work with clients from the book quite often. Also check out Open Path Collective for more affordable therapy options if that’s something you’re interested in.

    2. LifebeforeCorona*

      Personally, I’ve been caught up in similar situations because you want to help. Being so closely involved really messes with your perceptions of the right thing to do.

  4. Alex*

    I knew from the title that this would be in retail or hospitality and I suspect the vast majority of us working in those sectors have (albeit not to this extent) involuntarily ended up as an unpaid therapist for a manager, coworker or employee at some point in our career.

    1. different seudonym*

      Yes. Also things like security and EMT’s, and childcare. These jobs have so much artificial crisis built in due to deliberate short-staffing that when the real interpersonal drama arrives everyone is already primed to cope rather than evaluate.

      I think this is actually a significant way people in these sectors are exploited, and a significant barrier to labor organizing.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Definitely. I never reached this level of “holy shit not okay”, looking back at my retail career, but I got close. And I absolutely psychologically supported bosses and co-managers beyond what was reasonable or okay. I think at the time I justified it as “trauma bonding” or “we’re all in this together” – but if I ever looked closely no one was ever there for me as much as I was there for them. The few times I broke down there were sympathetic ears, but the ongoing upkeep was not something I asked for or received from others, and there was no reason for me to offer it the way I did except fear of everything falling apart.

        I carry some of that as I move forward in my professional career. It’s hard to shake entirely. But you’re extremely correct that exploitation benefits the status quo far more than the people doing the labor.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        I absolutely agree that some industries are much more vulnerable to this, but it’s possible for a toxic company to create these conditions in any industry. I worked at a company where people with a 100k+ starting salary would cry in their offices every week because they were so overworked and sleep-deprived, but they also couldn’t leave because of the non-competes.

        Since our workload would increase any time someone quit, instead of helping each other get out we tried to provide support & therapy to encourage our coworkers to stay. Pretty classic “you can’t leave me all alone in this abusive situation!”

      3. Chirpy*

        I would say, people are not just primed to cope, but primed to turn on each other, in an attempt to end up “on top” of the trash pile of drama.

    2. OP*

      1000%. I pivoted during the pandemic and no longer work in retail, and sometimes it’s absolutely shocking how…undramatic things are. Like, there’s still workplace drama, but it’s really black and white how different it is now.

    3. AnonToday*

      Ooh, interesting observation, and maybe add academia to the list. I had something eerily similar happen to me when I was an undergrad student working in a research lab, and have heard of other similar situations in academic lab spaces. I was going to type my experience out but it’s so similar to OPs that it would be kind of redundant. Luckily my work study coordinator was able to step in when I went to them for advice about the threat she made on her life (hers was more veiled in spiritual language but was definitely still clear on the intent), but I still carry a lot of discomfort about the whole thing today. So very sorry, OP, and wish you all the best.

    4. Esmerelda Margaret Note Spelling*

      [continued TW for mention of suicidal ideation & threats]

      I think it can happen in any sector if you have the right (wrong?) combination of people, even if it’s more common in some. I’ve ended up in similar situations a couple of times while working for a large technology company. The more recent one was particularly weird & uncomfortable: this colleague was sending multiple emails to a small group of people (including myself) where she would write at length about how difficult the world is for autistic woman, how being an autistic woman meant she could never be happy or successful, and how death was therefore the best/only option.

      The kicker? I am an autistic woman too, and she knew this.

  5. NotBatman*

    Since LW asked for solutions for next time: 988

    988 is the mental health and suicide hotline that just rolled out nationwide in the U.S. My own training for working with occasionally vulnerable people says that we should not try to talk them down, we should not attempt to give them therapy, we should direct them to the experts at 988. You can call yourself to get help in helping a friend, or you can add your friend to an ongoing call with 988.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I don’t want to put anyone off calling 988 – but experts is overstating it and there are situations where calling 911 is the correct thing to do. It sounds like this might have been one of them, given the child involved and the active threat.

      1. NotBatman*

        I can’t speak to OP’s circumstance, but 988 would be more helpful than 911 for a situation where a person is trying to help a friend through an episode of suicidal ideation. If the 988 crisis worker believes that law enforcement should be involved then they will connect the call to the local police, but 911 operators aren’t trained to provide resources or to talk someone down from an acute mental health episode the way 988 operators are.

        Also, even if not every 988 operator is a licensed therapist, each one has received extensive training in specifically helping people when they’re suicidal. I’m a psychologist, and I consider them experts.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          I’m speaking from the perspective of someone who worked the 988 hotline – I really don’t want to undercut the confidence people have in this service but as a psychologist I would not recommend you consider them experts. It’s a great thing but it comes with its own risks and the training and management is…fine, but I wouldn’t call it extensive.

          1. I’m a Derry girl!*

            I’m not a psychologist but I’ve (sadly) had a lot of experience with people close to me making threats about this sort of thing which sometimes escalated to actual attempts (that they survived and now they’re in treatment for). And I’d agree that once we’re talking about a *minor age child securing herself in a closet because she was that afraid of what was happening and her mom was not in the right frame of mind to be the parent her daughter needed at that moment* then yeah, it’s 911 time. I’d wager this was NOT the first time OP’s boss had experienced that exact kind of event in front of her kid, even if OP is unaware. I’m really hoping the kid got some help of her own too when all was said and done. I don’t blame the OP for second guessing themselves in the moment or still wondering what they could have done differently but I’d ask readers who think there’s the slightest chance they might ever wind up in a similar situation: do not FAFO if there’s a kid in the mix, when it comes to these types of situations. Please don’t.

    2. Lisa*

      FYI, 988 can still result in a police roll-out and/or involuntary hold, even if you’re not actively suicidal, depending on where you live and who you talk to. Some operators/locations have been trained to push you to say that you are suicidal and you end up with an involuntary hold when you just really needed someone to talk to.

      That said, in this case, either 988 or 911 would have been appropriate. This was so beyond anything the LW should have been expected to deal with, from a person with such intentions to making sure the child was safe and cared for. That poor child!

    3. OP*

      Thank you. A hotline didn’t occur to me at all, it will be the first step if, god forbid, I’m ever in a similar situation.

      1. Butterfly Counter*

        I said this above, but I want to respond directly to you, OP.

        The time to call is at the very first hint of mentioning of taking one’s own life (unless quite obviously said in jest. But even then…) A lot of people will “feel you out” by mentioning it lightly to see if you’ll jump in to try and help them. And if you do, they know you’re a good place to go for free therapy. You aren’t a therapist, so delegate that responsibility any time it may come up in the future.

        I’ve been there and done that. All it ended with was a friend who was still miserable and threatening to take her life and me filled with anxiety because what I was saying wasn’t enough. So rather than helping someone who was drowning, I just got pulled under.

  6. CubeFarmer*

    I’d also add this is was well and truly beyond an HR situation, and the most they could have done was force her out on leave (which is what HR did end up doing.)

    I hope Lily and her child are both doing much, much better these days.

    1. Username Lost to Time*

      A lot of HR teams are looped into employee wellness resources, benefits, and perks. So HR may have had referrals to a variety of direct and indirect services (and sometimes funds!) that would help Lily’s situation. No, HR was not going to serve as a therapist either.

    2. MigraineMonth*

      It sounded to me as if HR:
      – forced Lily to take leave when her actions were terrifying her coworkers;
      – gave Lily access the the kind of intensive inpatient therapy she needed to recover; and
      – made sure Lily’s job was still there for her when she returned.

      That’s exactly the amount I want HR to be doing in this situation. They aren’t doctors or priests.

  7. Dog momma*

    RN here, when she called and threatened suicide, you should have called 911 right away! Not sure what you mean by mental health calls being restricted. This was an emergency! This woman had intent( multiple comments about suicide) & plan ( bottle of pills in her possession)AND once you got there, a minor child, crying & traumatized by all this. and who knows if the poor kid sees this on a regular basis. Law enforcement would call an ambulance and take her in for an emergency psych hold and get the kid some help too. I’m very worried about this kid in that environment.

    2. Lexi Vipond*

      I didn’t read it as laws restricting the calls, but that the laws meant it was very likely that Lily would be what’s called ‘sectioned’ here – kept in hospital for treatment whether she liked it or not – and that the OP didn’t want to make that happen.

          1. Ann O'Nemity*

            Really? Have you not seen news coverage of how often 911 calls for help for mental health, wellness checks, or reported suicide threats results in police shooting the people who called for help?

            1. Vera*

              yes and it’s not that often. Like all stuff on the news you only hear about the ones gone wrong not the 99% that were uneventful. Perspective please.

              1. Ann O'Nemity*

                There have been hundreds of cases in recent years. That may be a small percentage of the overall total, but it’s still too much.

              2. Lenora Rose*

                Once is too often, and nobody wants to be the person who called 911 to support someone they cared about only for that person to end up dead. And involuntarily committed isn’t always that much better an outcome, depending upon the local health care providers.

                (I have friends with sometimes suicidal levels of depression. So far we have managed to always work with voluntary committals and/or therapy contacts)

          2. Kay*

            I am not going to link to the multiple news stories, but suffice to say police shooting a suicidal person has happened entirely too many times.

      2. Melissa*

        I’m a mental health professional in the US and I call the police to do welfare checks All. The. Time. If a patient leaves me a VM saying they’re suicidal, and then they don’t answer my return call, 911 immediately. It would be malpractice not to, even if your reasoning is “there’s an off chance the police could shoot her, so I’m going to drive over there and break in through a window myself.”

    3. Seashell*

      Not positive, I took the comment about state laws to mean that there would be an involuntary psychiatric stay. Given the situation, I would be surprised if there was a state where a person in this situation wouldn’t be considered a danger to herself and/or others and would be allowed to opt out of being hospitalized.

    4. mlem*

      911 calls for mental-health wellness checks can get the person called about involuntarily committed (which can lead to lost jobs, as the LW alludes to, and lost custody of children) even if less fraught interventions would succeed. They too frequently get the person called about assaulted or killed by police. It really isn’t the automatic right thing to do for many people in the US.

      An involuntary hold might in fact be the most successful approach for what Lily’s situation turned out to be, but a lot of people have a lot of very strong reasons to worry that it might be harmful or even disastrous.

    5. Ann O'Nemity*

      It’s completely understandable that LW would feel reluctant about calling 911, knowing the likelihood of Lily being placed on an involuntary hold due to local laws. Situations like these are incredibly difficult, as there’s a delicate balance between wanting to help someone in crisis and recognizing the potential long-term consequences of that intervention.

      From my own experience, I’ve seen firsthand how traumatic an involuntary hold can be. Someone I know went through one due to substance abuse, and the impact was devastating—they left with $8,000 in debt, lost their job, and still experience PTSD from the time they spent in the psychiatric hold. When a system that’s meant to protect can have such harsh outcomes, it’s completely understandable to feel torn about reaching out for help in these situations.

      If the risk seemed immediate, calling 911 would still be necessary, even with the potential drawbacks of an involuntary hold. However, in situations where the risk level allows, contacting HR, utilizing EAP or mental health crisis hotlines, or encouraging Lily to reach out to a mental health professional could all be effective and compassionate alternatives. Each option can offer support while minimizing the potential for trauma and financial burden associated with involuntary holds.

      2. Harper the Other One*

        I think people often underestimate the trauma associated with an involuntary hold, even if it is the “correct” choice. I think about it like this: if I had a severe injury, and the ER doctors had to start stitching/reset a bone/whatever without controlling my pain, that would be pretty awful to live through even if it did accomplish the goal of keeping me alive.

      3. ferrina*

        Sometimes the only options are bad options.

        Involuntary holds are not a great solution, and can lead to all the issues you listed (trauma, loss of job, debt, and even more issues in bad facilities). But the alternative is also not a great solution- leaving the treatment to people that have no training or support, who are also traumatized by the situation (like OP and the child).
        I’ve faced a friend in a mental health situation and opted for the option that almost led to a hold (I had no control about whether it would/would not lead to a psych hold). The only other option was that myself and a few other very unlicensed, untrained young people attempt to care for this friend, who was resisting any kind of suggestion that we gave them. It was taking a toll on all of us- there was the mental toll and constant worry that if we weren’t with the friend, something terrible would happen, but there was also the logistical issue that we couldn’t meet our other commitments because we were always with this friend (including work/school).

        The best option is to call in the professionals early. If you aren’t sure if you need them, that’s the time to make the EAP call and get expert advice. That can help set things up before it become untenable. Unfortunately, many of us learn this the hard way and don’t know what our options are until we’ve had to face a difficult situation and tried to navigate it without the tools (like our poor OP).

        1. H.Regalis*

          I’ve been there too. Sometimes there are no good options and you have to weigh the risks of potential police brutality vs. involuntary hold vs. the person in crisis really does kill themselves. Expecting someone’s friends or family, who have no training in handling crises whatsoever and have no professional distance from the situation, to handle crisis after crisis is right out.

    6. OP*

      You misunderstood- in my state, you can absolutely call 911 for mental health crisis, but there are laws around how law enforcement respond, and it’s pretty much a guaranteed involuntary hold, which costs thousands of dollars. In retrospect, I still probably should have called 911, but I knew that it would cost thousands that she didn’t have, and would probably have resulted in her losing custody. I really felt stuck between a rock and a hard place.

      1. Nobby Nobbs*

        You felt stuck between a rock and a hard place because you were, OP. You chose the least bad option as far as you were capable of at the time, and as important as it is to troubleshoot your response for the sake of future decision-making, I hope you’re doing that troubleshooting with a lot of compassion for yourself. You deserve it.

        1. Observer*

          as important as it is to troubleshoot your response for the sake of future decision-making, I hope you’re doing that troubleshooting with a lot of compassion for yourself. You deserve it.

          This. x 1,000

      2. Ex-child of suicidal mother*

        In this case, losing custody of a child may be the best outcome for the child. Please always put the safety and wellbeing of the child first, even if the parent isn’t at fault.
        I was one of these children. My mother being sectioned was the best outcome for me, (even for her as she got better after).

        1. OP*

          While you are of course correct, in this particular situation, there were reasons why a custody battle would not have been a good thing for the child. There are things that I will not get into here that make me still believe that my boss retaining custody over the other parent was still in the best interest of the child. Proven things that I know without a doubt even years after this.

          I really feel for that kid, and I hope she is ok today.

          1. Ex-child of suicidal mother*

            Even if the other parent isn’t suitable, it doesn’t mean that there are no other relative who could have custody of the child. Even a foster family may be better (or less bad) than some parents. This is something for professionals to decide, in the best interest of the child.

          2. Irish Teacher.*

            You really were between a rock and a hard place, OP. I’ve said this elsewhere but please try not to blame yourself for any mistakes you feel you made. It seems like there were literally no “good” options here and you were trying to choose the “least bad” ones. Maybe you should have made other choices, but I think whatever choice you made, you would likely end up second-guessing yourself just because all the choices were…less than ideal.

            You were put in a situation that you shouldn’t have been and that would be difficult even for professionals to deal with, let alone somebody who presumably was not trained to deal with mental health issues.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          I’m so glad it worked out for the best for you.

          Unfortunately, in my state children who are removed from their parents’ custody are typically stuck in the foster care system until the parent is able to pay back the cost of the child being fostered elsewhere. It’s fucked up.

    7. Anon Psych*

      Similarly, I’m not in the US but I am a psychiatrist, and in this situation I’d absolutely have called 911. There are times when saving someone’s life comes before worrying about ruining their life.

      Just like Dog momma said Lily had:
      -a stated plan to die by suicide
      -means to kill herself
      -a minor present

      This is empirically not a safe situation for Lily, her child, or you. Yes, there are risks to calling 911. There are risks to being involuntarily held in a psychiatric unit or emergency room. But the greatest risk in the moment that she called you was that she would kill herself in the presence of her child. That risk outweighs the others.

    8. Ellis Bell*

      I think people are forgetting that this very fraught, sudden, make-an-instant snap decision situation followed a period of intense grooming from someone in a position of power, where OP was made to feel like she was the only one her boss would listen to.

  8. Banana and an apple*

    First off, you were in a really rough situation. ( and so was your boss!) Hindsight is 20-20, and you keep replaying it over in your head. Stop. This will eat you up, and you did the best you could in the situation you were in. Repeat that last bit if you need.
    Although I can see why you felt like it was your job to “save” your boss, you were draining your mental battery to refill hers, and that’s a job for a professional.
    Next time, I encourage you to tell any person with suicidal thoughts or actions to call the National suicide hotline at 988.

    Note: the hotline used to be a different number, but has now changed to an easy 3-digit number.

    1. LaminarFlow*

      Yes!! This x10000!!

      Also, I was in a situation to call 988 a couple of years ago for a co-worker who was having a very difficult time, and had mentioned suicide to me. 988 was lovely and compassionate. They are far more equipped to handle these situations than I am.

      Btw, I don’t think I would have called 911 either. Lily was going through a messy divorce, and had a child. Calling 911 could have made her predicament much worse for her divorce/custody. I hope Lily & her child are ok, and I hope they both received the mental health support they needed.

      1. Seashell*

        Lily was planning to kill herself in front of her small child, who was clearly terrified. A discussion of a possible change in custody seems absolutely appropriate under the circumstances. I think LW made the wrong decision there, but it’s understandable since it was made in the heat of the moment and there were lots of factors involved.

        1. Dido*

          +1000. This woman absolutely should not have custody of a small child. A child’s NEED for safety and stability are always more important than a mother’s DESIRE for custody.

        2. OP*

          I do believe I made the wrong decision- that being said, there were also reasons why I didn’t believe a custody change would have been a significant benefit to the child, that I won’t get into here.

          Thanks for showing some understanding around my decision, even if it was the wrong one in the moment

          1. Strive to Excel*

            OP – hindsight is 20/20. You were doing everything in your power to be compassionate and caring for a person in need, and didn’t have any access to the resources or strategies of a trained professional. Were there empirically better options available? Probably, but realistically we do what we can with the resources we feel we have available, and panic is a *heck* of a drug.

            It might not have been the “best” decision, especially for the sake of your own mental health! But I don’t think you made the worst decisions either, and in your shoes I really don’t know what I would do.

        3. Genevieve*

          Yeah, as someone who has spent a lot of time handling suicidal people…I get why OP was hesitant. I really do. There are lots of good reasons to be wary about calling 911 for someone who is suicidal. There are many things you can often choose to do instead. But when someone has a plan and has made an immediate threat…that is the time to do it. Especially when there’s a child involved. It’s not a perfect solution (although some jurisdictions are actually well-equipped to handle it and it’s worth finding out what resources your area has), but it would have absolutely been the reasonable thing in OP’s case. That boss needed intervention. Preferably before things had escalated to that point, but since there hadn’t been and they did hit that crisis point, 911 would have been the right call.

          1. Genevieve*

            Btw my comment is in no way to shame OP for the choice she made in the moment. It’s a tough call and there are valid concerns. But I just wanted to emphasize that I do think this is actually a pretty clear-cut case for calling 911 (or at a minimum, 988). As other commenters have stated above, the moment there’s a concrete plan and/or a minor child involved, that’s when it becomes a do not pass go, call emergency services situation. There are a lot of nuances around the best way to handle someone who is suicidal/has suicidal ideation, but when someone has an immediate plan and the means to complete it, the response needs to be fast and focused on safety.

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      I also want to add YOU can call/text/chat 988 if you are trying to help someone else in crisis! I once started an online chat session via their website while I was on the phone with a suicidal friend and it was sooooo helpful to have support to navigate the phone call, and to have someone check in on me after the conversation was over.

      1. Freya*

        This! There’s a REASON my psychologist has a psychologist themself, and it’s because helping people deal with stressful situations is in itself stressful, and they want to be in the best possible mental state to do their job, and that means working through issues and stress with someone who is trained to help people that way, which their partner and kids most definitely are NOT!

  9. samwise*

    Being The One Who Can Fix Things is exhausting. btdt

    Hugs to you OP. You have a good heart. Please use it to love yourself as well as everyone else :)

  10. Stuart Foote*

    I sympathize with Lily but in my (limited) experience when people start demanding others take responsibility for their mental health, it ends horribly for everyone since the demands grow greater and greater and more and more unsustainable, and it just enables the original person to let their mental health deteriorate more and more. I haven’t seen too many cases where it ends well for either party.

    A close family member doesn’t work in mental health but does work a job where his clients tend to be very emotional and going through stressful times that require support. He once had a client who claimed to be suicidal and would frequently call him to talk them off the ledge. Eventually he told them if they wanted to kill themselves that much to go ahead and do it–apparently it showed the client how unreasonable they were acting and somewhat helped them snap out of it. I wouldn’t recommend going that far, but had LW been able to set boundaries with Lily earlier (which is much easier said than done!), probably things wouldn’t have become nearly as bad. (Also, this happened in the 90’s when the conversation around mental health was a lot different).

    1. Pajama Mommas*

      For the record, saying “if they wanted to kill themselves that much to go ahead and do it” is not a good idea. The recommendations to call 988 is a much better response.

    2. Statler von Waldorf*

      Ok, you know one person who was told “if they wanted to kill themselves that much to go ahead and do it” and they survived. I’m happy for them.

      I also knew one person who was told “if they wanted to kill themselves that much to go ahead and do it,” by their boss and they’re now dead from a suicide involving a firearm.

      I seriously don’t think “I wouldn’t recommend going that far” cuts it. In my jurisdiction, what you are suggesting is an actual crime. If that situation played out differently and in my jurisdiction, not only would your close family member would have been civilly liable for his clients death, they would have been guilty under section 241(1) of the Canadian Criminal Code, which allows for imprisonment for a term of not more than 14 years for what you just described. It’s unlikely you would serve that long, but that is the law.

      And this is where I need to bow out. You see, I’m the one found that body, and I have very, very strong feelings on this subject. Best I bow out now before I lose my cool.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Mmm I was with you at the start but you lost me. My husband is a mental health professional; you should *never* tell someone to “go ahead and do it”. That’s awful.

      That said, I think it’s also worth pointing out that constant suicide threats can be a form of manipulation and abuse – as well as other forms of someone holding their mental health over someone else’s head.

    4. Elle*

      I hope you can understand why anything involving the words “go ahead and do it” was an unbelievably thoughtless and callous thing to post on a letter about suicide.

    5. Anon Psych*

      Stuart, that’s really not a helpful anecdote. If your family member is a good provider, there was probably a LOT that got missed in their retelling to you and yours to us. I would hope that any provider who got fed up, snapped at a patient and encouraged them to kill themselves would be fired.

      When I work with (some! very specific! rare!) patients who are severely and chronically suicidal, sometimes the work we do together involves acknowledging that they might eventually choose to kill themselves, that the action is within their control, and that they can also choose not to do that, and then sitting together in the ambivalence of it all. It is NOT done in moments of crisis. It is definitely not at all something a layperson should be doing with a fellow member of the public who is acutely suicidal, and it’s NOT a way of setting boundaries.

      1. Stuart Foote*

        To be clear, the family member didn’t work in health care or anything adjacent…think lawyer, funeral home director, financial advisor where their professional service is one thing, but they often deal with people in stressful situations…and also this was before 988 and other resources. This family member was very skilled at manipulation which actually did work in this case, but had some pretty bad effects on his family (including me).

  11. Unkempt Flatware*

    I am almost two years out of my last role where my boss required what I thought at the time as very intense and inappropriate emotional labor from me and all his female reports. He made us sit in his office while he sighed in silence for hours and we co-wrote all his emails and made all his decisions with him. This…..this boss has somehow made my old one look reasonable.

  12. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

    I actually did find myself in a situation like this. Coworker was in a rancid marriage, and one day didn’t show up to work. She called me frantic, saying that her husband had attacked her and she needed help. So I left work, went to her house, called the police, waited until husband was arrested, and then took her to get a restraining order.

    Let me tell you that I was SUPER ANNOYED that I had to do this. She and I weren’t close friends. Or really friends at all. We’d never hung out outside of work. She needed someone in the moment, and so I had a moral obligation to help her. But wow, I do not appreciate being dragged into someone’s drama like that. I kept my distance from her after that.

    1. OP*

      Wow- I really appreciate you saying this. I still feel kind of guilty about my negative feelings around everything. I was, among other things, annoyed. Lots of much bigger emotions too of course, but it’s frustrating to get dragged into something terrible and huge. I validate you.

      1. Genevieve*

        Oh, OP, I have many loved ones I’ve been in similar situations with. People I voluntarily and willingly choose to support, over and over again. I’ve even gotten training to help them better. And I’m still pissed about it a lot of the time!

        Negative feelings about this are absolutely valid and normal. They are a reasonable response. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person or don’t care. It means you’re a human who was put in an incredibly difficult situation by someone else (and in your case, by someone you had a work relationship with and didn’t feel you could *not* support! You were quite literally a captive audience for her feelings).

      2. Generic Name*

        Of COURSE you have negative feelings about the situation. Your boss took advantage of your kind heart. It was unfair of her to put you in the position of making decisions about her safety, her child’s safety. Completely inappropropriate and I’m glad you ended your friendship to protect yourself.

      3. Observer*

        Actually, your negative feelings are probably the most healthy ones you have. Because they come from recognizing that she was making demands that were *beyond* unreasonable. You SHOULD be very negative about it.

        The only thing is that for *your health*, the negativity should migrate to a more intellectual reaction rather than actually getting emotionally steamed. Because you never want to let go of the deep knowledge of how wrong she was (ie never getting to “maybe she was not SO bad”), but you also don’t want your blood pressure to go up every time it comes up.

    2. bamcheeks*

      Yeah, I had similar. Someone in my wider friends group who I’d met two times at parties had a significant breakdown, and we all rallied around to help, which was the right thing to do. But she remained actively suicidal, and refused to go to A&E because she was terrified of being involuntarily sectioned (which is rational! It’s horrible and traumatising!), so we ended up on kind of informal suicide watch, trying to make sure she stayed alive. After a night of lying awake listening out for her getting out of bed and going to find a knife or something, I decided this was completely untenable and promised myself that she would get to a psych assessment the next day, whether I had to lie to her to get her there or what.

      It was a horrible situation all around, and I don’t regret what we did. But I completely noped out of any kind of friendship with her after that. I had no real relationship with her and no positive experiences to balance against that weekend of absolute terror, and no desire to seek one. She’s apparently doing better now. I wish her well.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        Sometimes we just have to gather our strength for a while for our community of humans, and I applaud you for doing it – she is alive, you succeeded. But honestly having limits to the amount of that you can handle is SO valid, and probably the only mindset that doesn’t break you down over time.

    3. municipal*

      I know you were super annoyed, but bless you for showing up anyway.

      The woman probably could not have called a closer friend because she didn’t have one. Abusers count on others not appreciating being called into somebody else’s drama, and that’s how they get away with what they do.

      1. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

        Something she told me while we were hiding in her car down the block and waiting for the police to arrive has really stayed with me: “I’ve told lots of friends that this was happening, but you’re the only one who’s ever called the police.” I think everyone she’d surrounded herself with was just really immature and irresponsible, and she saw me as someone with their shit together. She’s doing way, way better now, up to and including getting divorced, and landing a way better job in a new state close to her family.

        1. Silver Robin*

          I am glad things are going better for her. And what she said is why I generally fall into the camp of helping whoever calls me asking, because it means I am their best bet at the moment. We can have a discussion afterwards about what is and is not okay in the future or whatever needs to happen to get them into a better space, but I generally do not reject somebody outright who is calling me in a panic.

    4. Friday Hopeful*

      Sorry you got dragged in but I’m going to show you a different perspective. If that coworker called you it may have been for many good reasons. 1) she had been isolated from all her friends and family by the abuser. 2) “Work” was the only safe place she could dial while in the presence of the abuser. 3) everyone else in her life may have been tired of trying to help her and then she kept crying wolf and going back to him (it happens) and she finally knew this was the last straw and thought you were someone she could trust.
      You say he was arrested, so she may have been involved in drama, but she wasn’t being dramatic – she truly needed the help. As long as she is not depending on you constantly now for support I would say you should be proud that you helped her out of a dangerous situation, and no obligation to continue helping her if you don’t want to.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Sure, I don’t think anyone’s disputing that she sincerely needed the help. You seem to be implying that annoyance at stopping your day to become someone’s life raft only happens when the person is being dramatic or faking a crisis, but you can believe someone, have compassion for them, take action for them, and be annoyed at having to, all at the same time. As in this situation, sometimes a little distance of affection is a saving grace; you’ll make the tough calls like calling the police, and won’t agree to be an untenable support system.

  13. Alex*

    OP I hope you can give yourself some grace here even if you know that you could have done some things differently. This was a tough situation for everyone, and super hard to deal with perfectly. You did the best you could at the time! Hopefully you won’t ever be in this much of a shitshow situation again, but if you are, remind yourself that you’ve learned some things and not try to have the entire weight fall on you again.

      1. Christina*

        I will second this. Everyone loves to say “Well, I would have…” and that’s really easy to say when you’re not in the midst of it. Everyone thinks they’ll know exactly what to do in an insane, impossible to navigate situation and sometimes you just do the best you can.

        One time I was on a flight next to a woman who was yelling at her baby the whole flight, she clearly had mental issues or drug issues or both. It was horrible. I tried to tell the mom I didn’t mind when the baby was grabbing at me, other people around me (and I) were trying to get the flight attendant’s attention, they saw and knew what was happening. But there was literally nothing to do. When I got off, the flight attendants apologized and told me they had nowhere else to move me. It was traumatic. I told that story to a friend of a friend once and she said “Well, I would have done something” and all you can do is laugh because they have no idea what they would do in that situation, and saying that is just their way of feeling like they have control.

        1. Observer*

          Everyone loves to say “Well, I would have…” and that’s really easy to say when you’re not in the midst of it

          This is SO true!

          It’s not for nothing that “hindsight is 20/20” has become a cliche. At a distance it’s easy too see the “correct” decision and decide that *you* would *of course* see what it is *and* have the ability to make it happen. In real life? Not so much.

          1. STAT!*

            Exactly! And time has passed after the crisis/ critical situation, the passage of which generates new information to feed into the hypothetical decision-making process. Information which, obviously, was not available at the time.

        2. borealopelta*

          Yes, exactly! Everyone can win the argument a week later in the shower, and everyone thinks they can be the hero in a crazy, difficult situation- please take these types of commenters with a grain of salt. You did amazing in an awful situation where there were no good answers, and in the end, that’s all you can do. Kudos to you for doing your best and getting everyone the help they needed, now it’s time to help yourself and have compassion for the way you dealt with a fraught period in your life. <3

  14. anon for this*

    Well this gave me flashbacks to my first relationship. LW, there was nothing you could have done to fix this on your own, no magic way you could have handled this that would have made it better. Lily was in a horrible mental place, and one person–specifically one employee!–could not have fixed this. The only thing you could have done differently is reach out for help earlier.

    If you haven’t, I second the recommendation above to consider therapy for yourself. I needed quite a bit of it to unpack the damage done by my ex’s very similar behavior: using me as a replacement for therapy, threatening suicide without my support, etc. Especially if it’s still weighing on you after all this time, it’s probably a good idea to explore ways of dealing with what this relationship did to you.

    1. OP*

      I’m sorry you went through something similar- I can’t imaging the same situation without being to escape work for some reprieve.

      Yeah, therapy is for something I plan on doing eventually- it’s expensive, but probably a valuable thing to prioritise.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        About therapy, does your current company have an employee assistance program (EAP)? Most EAPs at places where I’ve worked have offered a few free therapy sessions as part of the EAP (usually 4-5 sessions). EAPs can also help you find a therapist if you want something longer than just 5 sessions.

        Hopefully that can be a good starting place when you’re ready for therapy!

      2. Paint N Drip*

        OP I will validate you and say that seeking therapy can be it’s own kind of tiring and you might not have the bandwidth for it today BUT I encourage you to take a close look at your insurance (if you don’t have insurance, the ACA open enrollment is right now!!) for any coverage options and be bravely willing to ask about alternatives – plenty of therapists take a lower cash rate, or they have spots in their schedule for sliding-scale lower cost care for those of us who make low wages. I pay $60 for my hour (which my therapist is happy with since insurance would actually reimburse less) and going monthly has been something the budget can allow. Good luck <3

      3. Elle*

        One thing about EAPs is it’s rare for the providers included in the network to be competent on anything but standard talk therapy. If you’re queer, trans, affected by racism, have unusual relationship dynamics (like being poly or practicing BDSM), have complex psychiatric needs (certain kinds of trauma, especially-religious etc) it can be insanely hard to find a therapist who is covered by your insurance and who actually will be able to effectively treat you. I have excellent coverage through my work and instead choose to pay like $500+ a month for therapists who are able to effectively treat me and my partner. You just cant make actual progress with someone who is going to try to tell me that the environment I grew up in wasn’t a damaging cult or make excuses for homophobes or something. This is a barrier to therapy that many people don’t realize.

  15. Statler von Waldorf*

    Having lived through a similar situation what feels like a lifetime ago, (though it was an ex-girlfriend, not my boss) and looking back my one biggest regret was that I didn’t call 911 the first time she threatened suicide to get what she wanted.

    I couldn’t save her, no matter how hard I tried. Her demons were many and way above my pay-grade. It took me a long time to figure that out. The frog boiling in the water effect is real. However, getting the authorities involved allowed me to at least save myself and get out.

    1. OP*

      I’m really sorry you went through that.

      And yeah, that frog boiling in the water IS super real- I’ve often wondered why I let things escalate to the point that they did, but I think Alison hit the nail on the head- at first, it was just simple stuff, letting her cry to me in the office and being supportive. But it escalated hard, and quickly, and I could barely keep up and then it completely exploded. Hopefully I’ll recognize things sooner next time

      1. Statler von Waldorf*

        I’m sorry you went through that too.

        If I had any real advice it would be to not beat yourself up too much over this. Speaking as someone whose beard is almost solid grey these days, my regrets about the times I was too kind pale in comparison to the regrets I have about the times I was not kind at all.

        You went through a hard situation motivated by compassion, and I will never shame anyone for showing compassion. I salute them for making our world a better place.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          “You went through a hard situation motivated by compassion, and I will never shame anyone for showing compassion.”

          ^^THIS. So so much this.

      2. Broadway Duchess*

        There are times when our own passivity allows us to “let” something happen to us, but you didn’t do that. This was impossible situation and you had a ton of things to consider. Being removed from it is helping you to see things differently, which is good, but when you are The One Who Can Fix It, you tend to think in terms of responsibility and fault. Therapy can help you unpack that when you’re ready and able, but it is draining (financially, emotionally, and sometimes physically), so if you need to wait to do it, that’s understandable. If your employer has an EAP, that can be a good way to test the therapy waters, too.

        1. borealopelta*

          And especially if you’ve already been “the one who can fix it” for her, it’s so hard to step back and set boundaries once you’re already in the thick of it. It’s already hard to do it right at the beginning, but if it’s been going on, it makes it even harder.

    2. H.Regalis*

      Been in the same situation. My ex did not want to be on meds and did not want therapy. I got sucked into being their 24/7/365 unpaid therapist and crisis team, and it didn’t help them at all. I almost lost my job because I was taking so much time off to deal with their never-ending crises. Eventually I had to walk away.

      I guess that’s why it makes me so angry to read when people are like, “You should never ever call 911 ever if someone is having a mental health crises because that’s bad,” because what is the alternative to that? What I did? I love my friends and family, but I can’t heal them of mental illness anymore than I can perform open heart surgery.

      1. UsuallyALurker*

        This. We can discuss the problems with the 911 and 988 systems all day, but putting people with zero training whatsoever in those situations is not the solution.

  16. Minhag*

    I’m struck by how your boss managed to isolate you and make it seem like NO OTHER PARTY could be involved in this crisis. First, by making you the Golden Child against all of these terrible enemies, then the racheting up of pressure on you to manage everything, then the suicide threat, leaving you “worried that if I called and she got put into an involuntary hold, it would financially ruin her and make her life crumble even more.”

    But then the so-called worst happened, “Lily ended up going on a forced paid medical leave…” and it seemed like it was beneficial and did not financially ruin her and crumble her life even more. But “she ended up coming back after her leave but immediately leaving for a new job because she felt betrayed by the company for forcing her on leave.”

    She experienced receiving paid medical leave as betrayal? It seems like she was committed to utter secrecy around her issues and thus you felt more and more pressure to handle everything and of course, it seemed like it all was on you because she was literally preemptively cutting off any other avenues of support. It seems like she had a fixation on “loyalty versus betrayal” that made this situation a lot harder for you.

    One thing I’ve learned, as recovering Helper/Fixer, is when it comes to fixing a crisis, the more the merrier. When one person is flailing, you want to bring in many experts, resources, support systems, etc to help that person, not just because different people bring in different skills but because it lightens the load on everyone involved. Yes, it can be hard for the person flailing to accept things are this bad and they need to be open about what’s going on to accept help. It’s embarrassing but doable. But if that person is flailing AND has made it clear that this must be top secret and you are to involve NO ONE else, that’s a huge sign to step back rather than dive in more deeply.

    1. OP*

      Wow…this was…wow. A very insightful comment. I think you hit the nail on the head. I never really considered how truly isolated I was by her. While I’m of course saddened that her mental health took such a turn, I would never wish suicidal thoughts on anyone, I do genuinely believe she’s a narcissist, and for so many more reasons than I shared here. While I don’t think her later actions were super intentionally manipulative, I do think she was VERY intentionally manipulative before the divorce. I can recognize how she pitted me and the other leaders against each other, and how that made it impossible to rope them in when things escalated. And while she treated the other two managers terribly, she also had a very “us vs them” mentality between our store and our corporate team, which really drew in the other two because they craved her validation and to be on her side…and I also think that mentality made it very hard for me to reach out to anyone, HR or her boss, because they were her enemy- not necessarily MY enemy, I liked them all fine, but she really instilled in me that I absolutely could not go to them about her without it being a major betrayal or her, and despite everything to the contrary, I genuinely thought we were friends and that that friendship deserved protection.

      1. Christina*

        Read up on narcissist collapse – it’s all part of the manipulation, including the threats to hurt herself.

        Sorry, I’ve realized I’d replied to a bunch of comments, just a lot that you’ve said mirrors experiences I’ve had and it is truly traumatizing (and they know that, and count on it). It wasn’t your fault, and yes, if you can manage therapy of some kind, it can help. I’m sorry you went through this.

        1. OP*

          No, please don’t apologize, I appreciate it- I’m having a hard time keeping up with all of these comments, it’s overwhelming to have something shoved out into daylight that’s been kept pretty close to my heart and not discussed much prior.

          I will read up on narcissistic collapse, I haven’t heard of that.

          1. Christina*

            Just sending virtual hugs. (Also a recommendation for the book It’s Not You if or when you feel up to it.)

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Oh boy. Christina you just opened a door for me about my late husband. Painful at the moment but I suspect very helpful in the long run.

  17. bamcheeks*

    I realized pretty quickly that Lily had some narcissistic tendencies as a leader, and I was clearly her Golden Child …
    I also started feeling anxious about what would happen if I fell out of favor

    LW, I’m dying to know whether when you say these two things, you mean you consciously realised them and named them to yourself at the time, or whether this is what you recognise with the benefit of hindsight and analysis. Because this is your answer right here: what you could have done differently is recognised these patterns and declined to participate in that dynamic.

    If you recognised them but didn’t think it was possible not to get caught up in them, why did you think that? If you didn’t recognise them at the time, would you recognise them next time?

    I don’t think those are necessarily easy questions— if they were easy questions for you, you probably would have set firmer boundaries around your business role and your personal role much earlier. But they are good questions to work on. But those are two places where you could have had giant flashing alarms going off. A third one is “hours in her office every day with me acting as her therapist”— it sounds like

    I think by the time you got to “being called by someone with a child who said they were actively suicidal”, you did exactly the right thing: that would have been a very bad time to try and set a boundary, and I think you did a very good job of taking care of both Lily’s child on the day and yourself after that horrifying experience. But like Alison, I think all those earlier flags were places you could have stopped and figured out how to draw back from the role Lily wanted you to play, and I definitely think it would be worth exploring what made you feel you couldn’t.

    1. OP*

      That’s a fair question…I definitely recognized that I was the Golden Child, and that our leadership dynamic was messed up. Me and the other two leaders had several private conversations around that, where we strategized how I could step up knowing that I was favored, for the betterment of our leadership team, and our team as a whole. In retrospect, I think I was too cavalier about the role I was in, and how I thought I could out-manipulate a manipulator. I really was trying to fix everything, and thought that I could use my position to do that. I thought I was smart and reasonable enough to stay above the manipulation….which in retrospect, all I can say about that is “lol”

      It’s kind of hilarious in retrospect to realize that I genuinely thought of my boss as a true friend (and that I was a true friend to her) while simultaneously thinking I could manipulate her while she was manipulating me, regardless of how “noble” my intentions were. It feels very Spy vs. Spy in retrospect. I’m glad I’m no longer burdened by this friendship.

      The falling out of favor bit was definitely less of a conscious thought though- I had experience a really horrendous work experience prior to this one that I carried a lot of anxiety over, and it I think put me in fight or flight mode from the very beginning.

      So I guess my answer is that it was kind of a combination of both- some things, I was very clearly aware of and chose to participate with because I naively thought I could navigate it for everyone’s benefit. But other things were more…primal. Feelings of fear and despair that I’ve really only been able to recognize and name to in hindsight, that likely colored a lot of my judgement and decision making, especially as things escalated. And I will say, the more dire the situation got, the less I tried to “out-manipulate” and the more I just reacted to instinctually- I went from thinking I was easily treading water to drowning very quickly.

      You’re completely right that choosing not to participate early on would have likely avoided this particular outcome, and choosing to throw in the towel and get help at any point would have been a much better choice for me to have made. I definitely will be trying to approach situations much more intentionally and with wiser eyes in the future.

      1. ReallyBadPerson*

        OP, you weren’t the Golden Child, you were her supply. All narcissists have them, a person to shore up their fragile egos. And you were groomed by her for this position (the sharing of confidences, the feeling that you were indispensable to her). It wasn’t your fault. All narcissists operate this way and unless you know what you’re dealing with, it’s all too easy to get sucked in. Cut yourself some slack.

  18. Smurfette*

    I definitely have a problem with being The One Who Can Fix Everything. I’m getting better though.

    Sorry LW that you had to go through this.

  19. Username Lost to Time*

    It’s a good morning when you skim the title and scroll down to see that the header to Alison’s response is “HR, HR, HR.” Glad to know my services are needed.

  20. Alan*

    I’m not trying to victim blame here, clearly this was an overwhelming issue that is easier to view in hindsight, but there was a lot of collateral damage happening as well which to me would overrule the potential damage to to Lily. Most obviously, there is a child that is being psychologically traumatized by their mother. That alone argues for an official response. But from a company perspective, there are two other employees having to deal with this [excrement]show as well. It’s absolutely not just an issue of “What will happen to Lily?”

    1. OP*

      Yeah, you’re completely right of course.

      I will say, without going into too many identifying details, there were reasons why a custody battle wouldn’t have been a good thing, things that I know about that with 100% certainty, that even in hindsight over this situation, make it clear that just handing the kid over to the other parent would not have been a good thing for the kid. Like, the current situation was obviously terribly for her, but the alternative….was also not a good one.

      1. MegPie*

        I’m sorry if this sounds harsh but her custody situation is not up to you. I know we all make decisions that we think are for the best but you were not (nor should you have been) in a position to understand what the best custody situation for her kid. You don’t know how it would have turned out. Maybe the kid has a family member apart from the two parents that could have assumed custody. Maybe there was a different scenario. By taking this on yourself you’re not only burdening yourself but you’re assuming you’re the person who gets to make all the decisions and that’s not how things work.

        1. Christina*

          But that’s part of the manipulation and the damage – they make you think you *are* responsible. It’s not OP’s fault for feeling like that because that’s how this person set it up and took advantage. And it’s an awful feeling to come out the other side and realize that.

        2. OP*

          You’re not wrong, of course, but it was really hard to understand this concept in the moment (or even now, years later, honestly)- it felt like if I made the wrong choice, among many other things, I’d be handing this kid aware from a parent who loved her to one who…well. One who didn’t, I guess. Trying to remain vague here.

          1. Vaguebooking Is A Way of Life*

            I totally get why you were concerned about calling for help and the impact on the child. For all those saying someone else could have taken the child, there’s no way to know that. By far the likeliest outcome would have been turning her over to the non-custodial parent. Especially if that parent was already trying to gain custody. I’ve been in situations where I had to make a decision regarding reaching out to protective services. It’s really random how those situations play out. Mostly it’s just different degrees of horrible. I would have done the same thing you did.

  21. tabloidtainted*

    What if you’d gone over and found her overdosed? You couldn’t have solved that on your own. A threat is the time to call for help, be it 911 or some other service.

    There is a community aspect to care. We should want to and try to care for each other. That doesn’t mean going it on your own.

  22. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    From the perspective of someone who has tried to end her life a few times.

    There was nothing you could have done – and consider that she had access to the same numbers you do which meant she could have and should have called someone else or the emergency services.
    Instead she chose you because she knew she could say things like ‘do XYZ or I’ll kill myself’ and you’d do it. Just because someone is suicidal doesn’t mean they can’t be incredibly manipulative too.

    The best way to cope with this is to realise you cannot and will not be in that situation again. It was very traumatic but you also learnt where your boundaries are and I think you’ve come a long way in cuttting off contact with your former boss entirely.

    In the future, if anyone threatens suicide at work, take it directly to HR.

    1. Zap R.*

      “Instead she chose you because she knew she could say things like ‘do XYZ or I’ll kill myself’ and you’d do it. Just because someone is suicidal doesn’t mean they can’t be incredibly manipulative too.”

      +1

  24. Yes And*

    I identify with one aspect of this letter: I have been in the position of thinking I was picking my battles to push back on a bad leader’s abusive behavior, only to realize in hindsight that I was actually enabling that behavior. Let me join the chorus advising OP to give herself some grace. Lily placed you in an incredibly messed-up situation, and you did the best you could with it at the time.

  25. Web of Pies*

    I would love to get a follow-up opinion on handling these sorts of things in places that don’t have HR. All the most totally messed up stuff I’ve experienced at work has been at places with no HR.

  26. Observer*

    I haven’t read the comments yet. But I just want to say three things.

    One is that you did the best you could, but Alison is right about what you could have done differently and *also* about your feeling like you needed to stay on to protect everyone else. As you discovered, you really can’t do that.

    Secondly, I can really see why this lives in your head. It was very unfair to you, yet somehow you were being made out to be the “bad guy.” Obviously you would be best of letting it go, *for your sake*, but that’s easier said than done. Maybe just accepting that it WAS unfair and legitimately extremely difficult, while noting any lessons learned might be helpful.

    Lastly, the fact that Lilly “felt betrayed” by the company tells you everything you need to know about her. Yes, she apparently had mental health issues, which appear to me to not have been completely dealt with, but she is narcissistic *in general* and deeply unreasonable, not just as leader. I’s so glad that she’s out of your life.

  27. Harper the Other One*

    Hi OP, I have two things I want you to remember.

    First, while you made mistakes, they were at least partly driven by compassion. Please don’t beat yourself up for trying to choose the response that you thought might minimize harm; it’s an understandable mistake when you don’t have experience with this.

    Second, for future situations (or when you’re advising younger colleagues) it might be helpful to think of this as a safety issue. This can be a very dangerous situation to enter; my husband is a minister with crisis counseling training, but he always notifies people re. where he is because there is a possibility that the person will lash out. When a dangerous work-related situation arises, it’s okay to hand that off to someone else, just like you wouldn’t operate heavy machinery without training.

  28. CommanderBanana*

    LW, please consider (if you’re not already) seeing a therapist and possibly getting evaluated for PTSD. This was an incredible amount of stress to be under for so long.

  29. LifebeforeCorona*

    Years ago I was in a similar situation with my best friend. She was spiralling for months and her partner downplayed her mental state. Finally, they called me to help persuade her to go to the hospital. She was immediately admitted and stayed for several months until she improved. Looking back it was a slow moving train wreck because everything that happened was small and could be downplayed as something else. We weren’t experts and had no experience in dealing with someone who was that ill. Don’t blame yourself because I was in the same situation again with a co-worker. It’s very hard to judge at which point outside intervention is needed.

  30. Zap R.*

    Oh, OP. I recently ended a friendship with a very close friend for very similar reasons and I know how intense the guilt and regret and confusion can be. Please give yourself some grace. This is not your fault.

  31. Zippity Doodah*

    Anyone know if people who wind up to be the One Who Fixes Things at great personal cost, tend to be female? I don’t know if LW specified but I pictured her as such, and the people I’ve known who do that were both female.

    Maybe something specific for us to watch out for.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Male here and I am definitely a fixer. I think it depends mostly on how sensitive a person is.

    2. dulcinea47*

      of course the female is more often seen (by themselves or others) as a caretaker in western society. why do you think nurses, teachers, librarians, etc are all female? It’s only partly so they can be paid less.

    3. HannahS*

      I’m not sure; I doubt that there’s any real data to turn to, though I’m happy to be corrected.

      I do think that this attitude absolutely exists in male culture. I’ve definitely known men who felt that they could not address their own emotions (or even have their own emotions) out of a need to be “the strong one.” In my work, I see it when I encounter men who’ve been traumatized in their work as EMTs, military, or firefighters. And men who are victims of parental or spousal abuse. Patriarchy hurts us all, even if it manifests differently for different people.

  32. DarthMom*

    The words, “I now recognize that I was in an impossible situation, and I was setting myself on fire trying to keep everyone else warm.” are resonating so much with me.

    OP, I agree with Alison’s frog in the pot assessment. You were dealing with whatever fire was in front of you to the degree that you couldn’t see the forest for the trees.

    So glad you are out of that situation! All the best!

  33. Christina*

    I’ve left some random comments but want to say this for the OP: this person was an abusive narcissist, and you did the best you could in the situation they put you in. You did not put yourself in that situation and you did not “let” this happen to you. And the fact that they used their child as a way to control you in this manipulation adds another level of trauma and abuse.

    No one knows what it was like to be in that situation, in that moment, other than you. In my experience, I wanted to tell myself in all the moments leading up to it “I’m in control, I have options, I’m making this choice, someone who says they love me/are my friend wouldn’t deliberately hurt me.” One of the hardest moments has been realizing they manipulated the options I thought I had to the point that I question whether I really had any choices at all, except at the very end. And it’s also easy to tell yourself “it wasn’t your fault, you weren’t responsible” but it’s another thing to actually internalize that (I still feel deeply responsible for things that absolutely were not my responsibility).

    We all want to think we’ll see the manipulation coming and get out, but it’s so much harder than people realize. I’m so sorry this person did this to you.

  34. Anita Brake*

    I’m here to say that I’ve read another one or two stories on this website lately that have me asking, inside my head, “Where is upper management?” “Are they even paying attention to the [out-of-control, needy, ineffective] employee who is making bad decisions for, about, and around other people?” I’m sure that’s just one aspect of a complicated, many-faceted issue, but has anyone else wondered that, as well? It seems to me that management should be “managing” all the way to the top of any given company. How rare is it to have that be the case?

  35. And thanks for the coffee*

    Reading all of this has been really interesting. For the first time I’m recognizing that my first spouse (we got divorced years ago) had narcissistic characteristics. I don’t think I ever recognized them as such. AAM is really amazing.

    1. Christina*

      Same, weirdly. All of these replies have been very validating about an experience I went through recently/am still going through and the things my therapist (and others) keep trying to tell me – it’s not your fault, you are not responsible for what they did. It’s funny how easy and obvious it is to tell those things to other people going through the same and how hard it is to believe for yourself.

      It also makes clear the people that just don’t get the power these people have over your mind and how scary that is to realize when you come out the other side. Everyone thinks it will never happen to me because I’m strong, people can’t manipulate me like that, I would see it coming. If only.

      1. Strive to Excel*

        People really, really underestimate the strength it takes to look at someone and say “I am done caring about what you think about me” and walk away. It’s one of the hardest things anyone can do.

  36. DJ*

    I can understand with US’s health insurance and lack of situation combined with high co pays plus how LW’s deals with these situations would have lead LW to rush over to her colleague’s home.
    Sounds like the workplace dealt with the situation well (good to see a workplace do this)
    Worth having some sessions with your employee assistance scheme provider over it!

  37. Irish Teacher.*

    I just want to say don’t beat yourself up about any missteps you feel you’ve made here. This was an incredibly difficult situation. You were dependent on Lily for your job and therefore your livelihood and she seems to have had some bullying tendencies. On top of that, she also pretty much made you feel responsible for her life and when you add in the fact that she had a child and it is hard to walk away in a situation where a child is at risk…well, I think most people would have struggled to deal with this well.

    If they didn’t make the missteps you feel you did, they would make others.

    In one of Torey Hayden’s books, she talks about highly manipulative personalities (I think it might be in Twilight Children) and how, because of their own mental health problems, these people will say and do things that make the other person feel that only they can help the manipulative person and that their life/freedom/happiness depends on you and she talks about how therapists, doctors, social workers, etc, those who work with people in crisis, have to be very careful and pay very close attention to their own emotions and reactions to avoid being drawn in and enabling these people rather than helping them.

    Lily seems to have some traits of that type of person and from what Torey Hayden writes from her experience, it seems like even people with training in the area of psychiatry and psychology often have to work to avoid getting sucked in.

  38. Bookworm*

    Nothing to add other than I’m sorry you went through that, OP. I’m glad that you’re in a better place. I do hope Lily is also in a better situation, if only for the sake of the child. Thanks for writing.

  39. Consonance*

    I’ve been in shoes similar to yours, though on the surface the situation was different. But I, too, kind of love being in “fix it” mode and getting through a crisis. It made me very successful at work the day my building flooded, but a less successful family member. I’ve learned and grown a lot since that time, and therapy has been a big part of that. Even though I’d gotten to an “okay” place and didn’t “need” it, it really was essential for changing how I react. A few thoughts for you:

    1. If a crisis lasts more than a day, reconsider whether it’s a crisis or a chronic situation. Crises are appropriate for crisis response. Chronic situations are not. Both may require outside help, but I found it helpful to recognize if I was in crisis mode for a chronic situation – entirely untenable.

    2. When someone’s words/actions don’t jibe with your understanding, let yourself take a pause and question it. You trusted/liked your higher ups, and she refused to let you contact them. Why? (This isn’t a real question right now, but the type of question you can ask yourself in the moment.

    3. Practice taking time to look inside and assess how you’re feeling, and then take that feeling seriously. After a weird interaction at work, take a walk or get in the shower, and let yourself think thoughts like “that made me uncomfortable,” or “I’m a little overwhelmed,” or “that left me feeling uncertain of what I should do.” Great! Then you can take the next steps to addressing those feelings *for yourself*. Being a fixer can make you be really disconnected from your own feelings, and your own feelings will usually point you in the right direction. Your boss used that to her advantage by privileging her feelings over your feelings.

    Anyway, those are just my own personal thoughts. A therapist is absolutely right next step, and, while expensive, a worthy investment in your future.

  40. thequill*

    I could have written this letter myself. Had the same thing happen with a coworker/friend-turned-manager. Even up to the suicide threats. Truly a nightmare.

    Therapy has helped. Getting distance from the person helped. Maybe it’s less about what you could’ve done differently, and more how to avoid this happening again in the future. I felt a lot of anxiety about ending up in a similar situation, especially while I was working on improving my boundaries in therapy but wasn’t quite ‘there’ yet. What if I fell into the same trap? But the silver lining of all this is that it does set off huge blaring alarm bells when it happens to you again. You might even overcorrect slightly, but in time you’ll see–your instincts are better calibrated now, you know where these things can lead, and you’ll be reluctant to walk the path again.
    So take a little solace in knowing that you’ve already grown and learnt from that experience. As you recover and heal, those lessons will stay with you. But also–therapy helps!! And look into “people pleasing” as a topic if you haven’t heard of it already.

  41. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

    I read a phrase I liked recently – “Givers need to have very good boundaries, because Takers don’t have any”.

  42. cioè*

    OP, if I’m reading the subtext, are you trying to understand what happened because you’re worried you might end up in this situation again?

    If so, that’s a really important question to ask, because most people who end up where you did weren’t groomed by their “Lily” for the job, they were groomed for it long before that. And once someone has that caretaker aura about them, you can almost bank that you’ll meet more narcissists who become very interested in you in the future.

    My advice is to start with a couple of books:
    -Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life by Margalis Fjelstad
    -Rethinking Narcissism: The Secret to Recognizing and Coping with Narcissists by Craig Malkin
    -Disarming the Narcissist: Surviving and Thriving with the Self-Absorbed by Wendy Behary

    And yes, Captain Awkward’s blog.

    Good luck, we’re cheering for you.

  43. WorkingRachel*

    Wow, that’s awful! I’m so sorry you were in that situation.

    I’ll share a story of one of the ways this can be handled better, in case it’s helpful to anyone:

    I worked with a person who held a high level but technically volunteer role, and she was coming under a lot of heat about some of the decisions she had made in this role. There were snarky social media posts involved and it was pretty unpleasant. She had been expressing increasing amounts of stress to me, culminating in a phone call in which she “joked” about wanting to kill herself. I knew she was in a hotel room traveling alone at the time so I was even more scared than if she had been at home with her partner.

    I went to my boss immediately and told him everything she had said to me. He basically said, “This is bigger than you, I’ll take care of it.” I wasn’t fully privy to what happened after that, but I know he connected the suicidal individual with her EAP (she didn’t work for our organization), and because the volunteer position had been such a trigger for her, we worked out a way for her to gracefully step down. I do worry he may have disclosed more to her boss than was technically ethical, but at the end of the day nothing tragic happened and I, a twentysomething who knew this person only through work, didn’t have to act as a crisis counselor.

  44. Boof*

    Op- you did the best you could and the bad things that happened aren’t your fault! But I totally understand the impulse of “never again, how do i make sure never again?”
    — the line between helping and enabling is probably when bad things persist despite your best efforts. Probably when you noticed boss was being mean to people even tho you were trying to smooth things over would have been the earliest warning sign that your boss’s behavior wasn’t ok and you couldn’t control it (also you shouldn’t have to in general but i’m in the scenario of realizing you’ve gotten sucked in to something no good)
    — it’s true giving up control is scary, other people may not handle things the way you would, maybe even worse/maybe bad things will happen – but that does not make everything you could have prevented your fault nor should that prevent you from handing off to the next best thing you can find once you realize the situation is beyond what you want to do /should do
    You are a kind soul and that’s beautiful- being a kind soul in this world is plenty even if you don’t personally put out every fire

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