open thread – November 15, 2024

by Alison Green on November 15, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Grogu's Mom*

    Does anyone have experience with court transcript proofreading? I’m considering starting it as a side gig (maybe 8-10 hours/week?) for supplementary income while keeping my full-time job for the next 1.5 years, with the eventual goal of quitting my day job and working about 20-30 hours/week once my kid is in Kindergarten. I know I’d make significantly less (I make ~$70k at my current full-time job), but the idea is that we wouldn’t need to pay for before/aftercare/full-time summer camps so it’d be somewhat offset. I’m craving a career change that will give me more flexible hours and the ability to work from home, and I’ve always had a freakish talent for spotting typos and extremely detail-oriented jobs. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

      1. Grogu's Mom*

        Yes, I do better under those circumstances. I tend to struggle more when I have a long time to do a big ambiguous project, and thrive when I have a short time to complete a very concrete task.

    2. JFC*

      It provides great flexibility and is perfect for WFH. I’m not doing it anymore at the moment, but I miss it! My biggest tip is that each review will take you longer than you think. Add 30-45 minutes to whatever you’re estimating for each review. It’s natural to get faster as you hone your skills, but it does take a lot of focus. Also, check to see if the court system will provide any guide or glossary with names of defendants, attorneys, victims, witnesses, locations, etc. Some do this and some don’t, and for ones that don’t, you’ll spend a LOT of extra time researching those, especially in early stages.

      It’s fun and interesting, though! Good luck!

    3. MaggieSea*

      I am a paralegal who has done this in the past. You will need to be familiar with both legal and medical terms. Turn around times can be short, so make sure that you will be able to work in rush jobs. And (this should go without saying) check the going proofreading rates in your area. This is a valuable service. Don’t undersell your product.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        I had a friend (an editor by day) who did this on the weekends. The main thing I remember is that one of the court reporters was notoriously prone to not include the word “not” into the transcripts, which added to the complexity of the process.

    4. ONFM*

      I have a friend who tried it out and didn’t last three months. It took a lot longer to complete documents than she thought it would (like twice as long) and she was getting paid by the job so the hourly rate, when she calculated it for her (not what was advertised), was not sustainable.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        That was my experience with transcription as well. Although, I was doing the transcribing (not editing) and I learned that I am not all that skilled at parsing sounds without video – the skills are learned, and your take-home pay per hour definitely increases with your skills.

      2. Legally Bored*

        Its also been my experience that sometimes you get a really easy transcript to proof and it goes by quickly and others you get one that basically means transcribing the whole thing from scratch, without any indication which one it might be. So I’d set out the amount of time I thought I needed and then end up taking twice as long, for no change in pay.

    5. Det. Charles Boyle*

      You could also try freelance indexing. There is some startup cost but it’s another flexible remote job for good writers who are analytical thinkers.

    6. California Dreamin'*

      I’m a court reporter, albeit in the deposition world, not in the court system. Many freelance reporters like me use a proofer for most or all of their work, and we are very, very busy professionals (I’ve been swamped with as much work as I can handle since probably 2017, except for 2020.) So there is a lot of work out there. You would need perfect English grammar and extensive medical and legal terminology. You will have to wade through a lot of unfamiliar subject matter. I can proofread my OWN transcripts at a clip of 80-100 pages an hour, so that might help you figure out how much you can expect to earn based on whatever your local page rate is. But I’m a very fast reader and proofing would be my third pass through the material (first sitting in a deposition and taking the testimony down, then a pass that we call “scoping” which is like an editing pass. Then we go back through once more to proofread.)
      This all assumes that you’d be getting work from a professional certified court reporter, which would come to you already in pretty decent shape. If you’re talking about proofreading some kind of transcription thrown together from audio recordings like they’re doing in some court jurisdictions these days, I have no idea how messy those are, but I presume they are very messy.

  2. Unsure*

    For those who are looking for a new job right now, did the US election results last week change your job search efforts?

    I work in a digital marketing team in-house (specifically paid search/ppc) at a company I don’t like. The leadership team is spineless, sexist and sneaky and I don’t trust them. I’ve been applying to jobs the past 2 months with no interviews. Initially I wanted to see how the election would go, but when Kamala got the nom, I felt it was safe and certain enough to look for a new job. Now I’m not sure. The industry of the company is pretty stable, but the leadership team has no idea what they are doing, especially with marketing. But, I work remotely and have a decent salary.

    I’m still going to continue applying for jobs, but do you think companies are going to slow hiring right now and over the next year? Are you putting your job search plans on hold? On the flip side, do you see your company hiring over the next year or having to do hiring freezes?

    1. Busy Middle Manager*

      I was going to ask the same thing but was afraid it would be too political. But I am also curious, because I want to know where the jobs are and I’m still trying to figure out what is true or not online – reddit is very confusing right now. It’s known for being extremely left leaning, but on Wednesday – now I saw quite a few “the market is picking up I got two interviews this week” posts and TBH they seem fake, because when I look at postings, all I see now is delivery drivers and front desk at medical office. And my area encompasses a few million people, so that’s an absolutely horrid job market

      1. goofball*

        I wouldn’t put too much stock in reddit for the reasons you mentioned; no deterrents for lying and heavily biased (I say this as a super-left leaning person myself)

        Continue to check the LinkedIn boards and niche boards in your industry (i.e. if you’re in tech, check out Wellfound, BuiltIn)

        It’s going to vary so much by industry, job title, your own years of experience. Hard to make a blanket statement on how the overall job market is, with specific regards to the effect the election may have hadt, right now.

    2. dulcinea47*

      a lot of us in education & libraries are wondering how/if we are going to have jobs at all. However we’re actually doing a ton of hiring this year, which will necessarily mean we do less next year.

      I think if you’re in a stable industry there’s no reason to stop applying for jobs you’re interested in.

      1. Nesta*

        Same. I work in higher education related to special education services at a public university. Our students are historically working and middle class, along with students in poverty. Many of them get state aid as well as Pell grants; nearly everyone is eligible for federal loans, and in some cases work study.

        The Department of Education oversees these things… if that department is reduced or eliminated… I imagine we will be hurting. And we are already hurting because the state has ignored the enrollment cliff in the population and expects us to frequently make something from nothing. Making any purchase is a Herculean task; we are begging for supplies our students need. People leave and we rarely hire replacements. Class sizes are increasing.

        I worry about my future, but I don’t know where to turn now anyway, so I’m just staying put and seeing if we survive the storm… at least until I have more information.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I’m in A/E/C now and I expect infrastructure work to get tanked — that bill will be repealed not because it’s a bad thing but because it wasn’t “his” thing. No idea where I would go from here. It was hard enough finding Exjob, and hospitals won’t hire you if you don’t have any healthcare experience already. Maybe back to tech, idk.

    3. Anon for this 1*

      I’m in a niche industry and we’ve already seen fallout from our international customers canceling agreements that have been in place for years and stopping discussions planned improvements so it will impact our hiring plans for next year forward.

      1. Meep*

        Not surprising. Not to get political (though it is hard when you are dealing with this level of crazy next year), but Musk is an excellent hiring manager. Any time he gets involved in the actual business/metrics side of any of his businesses, things literally blow up. If I was a large international company, I too would avoid working within the US and the stupid meme department that is to come.

        1. Panicked*

          I work for a company that has close ties with Tesla. I can honestly say as an HR person myself, that it is incredible anything gets done at that company. The amount of turnover and lawsuits is *staggering.* You could not pay me enough to work there.

          1. Filosofickle*

            Yeah, I live in the bay area and everything I have read and heard about labor shenanigans at Tesla is beyond bonkers! It’s not a surprise the cars have QA issues.

    4. Banker of the Food Variety*

      I work in the food banking world, and we’re battening down the hatches. The assumption is that the incoming admin is going to significantly cut federal support for nonprofits like us, while simultaneously cutting SNAP benefits. (Republicans already got some fairly large cuts through Congress last year with the Farm Bill, and are likely to do it again.) I’m a fundraiser, so cuts are unlikely to impact me directly, but my work is going to be getting a lot harder because I’m going to have to be making up for a LOT of money at a time when we know the need is going to get a lot higher.

    5. I Can't Even*

      I think that job seeking is going to impacted everywhere but the area you work in will depend on how much. As we have zero idea how government funding and the economy will be impacted it is hard to tell. I see news about businesses having to cancel Christmas bonuses as they prepare for high tariffs. I have no idea how large the impact will be but common sense tells me that some businesses/areas will be unstable.

      1. Tradd*

        I’m a customs broker so the tariff thing is all day, every day. We have NO idea what the increases will be. I suspect China will get hit with something, but other countries? For the last time he was in office, it was a year in before the China tariffs went into effect back then. So there are just so many variables and we know nothing until Jan 20th at the earliest.

    6. ampersand*

      My husband is looking for a job after an unexpected layoff, and the recruiters he’s talked to this week have said that job postings have increased since last week. He’s in engineering/tech, for reference.

      I don’t know that it’s entirely caused by the election results; however, I do know that various tech stocks are doing even better than before since last week. I was a bit worried about him looking for a job now since everything feels wonky at the moment, but it does seem that now isn’t a *bad* time to look for tech jobs specifically. I imagine there are all sorts of other industries that have been thrown into chaos after last week though.

    7. Keeley Jone, The Independent Woman*

      A friend of mine works for the VA. Apparently her boss just put in their notice. She was wondering if she should like elsewhere. But I doubt it’s because she’s worried her job will be cut, I’m certain she voted for the incoming administration. She just doesn’t want a new boss she won’t like. Part of me wants to tell her what’s coming, part of me is like “this is what you voted for”.

      1. Feral Humanist*

        I was coming here to say that I suspect there may be an influx of federal workers looking to the private sector, because some agencies are about to become awful places to work. So now might be a better time to look than six months from now.

        1. Momma Bear*

          I agree. I would also look carefully at tech jobs. Software might be fine but hardware might be hurt with supply chain issues. Even big companies are not immune – Boeing is laying off 17,000 people.

    8. Keladry of Mindelan*

      I’m in an odd position in that I just started a new job (last week) and am also searching. My current/new position is a grant funded, limited term position ending in March. Every position I’ve had in my career has been grant funded, primarily through DoJ, and my current position is no exception. I’m at a university doing work that is a specific requirement from the Dept of Education in a position that is funded by the Dept of Justice.

      So yeah. The election results have massively changed my search in that I truly have no idea if the work that I have done, am doing, and love to do will exist a year from now.

      If I’m being honest, I have NO IDEA what I’m looking for anymore. I’d do what I’m doing now for the rest of my life if that was an option (and it could be; who really knows?). And really, anything that I’m qualified for based on the last decade plus of my career may very well be disappearing over the next several years.

      Mostly, I’m glad that you asked because it’s something that I’ve been thinking about a LOT but haven’t been able to discuss just because it’s such a minor issue in the grand scheme of things and it feels awfully selfish and yucky to be worried about my career when others are worried about their lives. Anyway.

    9. Blue Pen*

      I work for a large private university, so I think (guess? hope?) we’ll be “OK,” but who knows. At the very least, I would be surprised if there wasn’t a hiring freeze at some point over the next four years.

      1. AnotherOne*

        I’m in the same place- work wise and mentally. My job will probably be fine. My department survived 2020 intact, which was a rarity. So chances are if there are cuts, we’ll be able to patch together funding.

        But I could see hiring freezes and/or us not getting COLAs at some point.

    10. quetzal*

      I’ve been considering looking for a new job for a while, but I’m in a situation where I can be picky. I work in a supporting role for a lot of NIH supported researchers right now. I’m currently thinking maybe I should look for a role with less NIH support involved…

      1. Fierce Jindo*

        I’m in an NIH-adjacent role and I’ll have a job no matter what, but many people around me may not. It’s depressing as hell.

        1. Momma Bear*

          Been there. I was able to be moved to another contract but not everyone was so fortunate. It’s worse when you’re on-site and all your billable hours are one contract.

      2. Former Young Lady*

        In sponsored research administration (post-award) here, and I’m worrying about the same thing.

        My team finally has a good boss after a long period of instability (and a brief stint with a leader so sadistic and inept, the incoming administration would have adored her). Also, the industry sponsored clinical trials seem to be booming right now…but I’m terrified for the PIs counting on K and R awards, which is still most of our portfolio.

    12. Sociology Rocks!*

      Ditto many other commenters, working on anything funded by the government feels very precarious, I think I’ll be okay, but all our grant funded research projects will probably feel the pinch since they’re NIH and USAID. We’ve already been in a battle with university bureaucracy recently for moving slowly in way that prohibit successful applications for many opportunities and this just highlights why we really need them to stop being so much of an obstacle course. Honestly though, as a trans person my job/grad school search is officially switching to out of the country, as soon as my affairs are in order. I wish I could stay here and be a part of the programs I currently help support but I don’t feel safe enough.

    13. Sloanicota*

      I’m worried about it. I had been contemplating doing a bridge “freelance to new position” recharging period, and now I doubt ACA will be a reliable option. I’m more inclined to focus on finding a new job with benefits included.

    14. CL*

      I’m in the DC area which may have a great deal of impact on my point of view. I’m speeding up my job search efforts so that I already have momentum if I lose my job. I’m also considering if I need to stay where I am and doing what I’m doing rather than pivot careers and employers.

    15. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

      I’m still searching because I’m unemployed (so potentially being the “last one in” anywhere is basically unavoidable), but I’ve been looking all over the country and have since limited the states I’m willing to move to.

    16. effy*

      as someone working in a library who was potentially considering moving states, this has kickstarted my efforts. I currently live in a red state and I genuinely don’t know what librarianship will look like during this admin. looking for jobs elsewhere.

  3. Square*

    I’ve been dealing with a lot of workplace stupidity these last few months. 

    Most recently, we had a newish employee Bob who sent multiple threatening emails and voicemails to his manager. It started off with a benign question. But when Bob’s manager didn’t respond to this Friday 6pm email, he took it personally. Between Friday night and Saturday morning he sent a dozen emails demanding an immediate response or he would sue. 

    The tone of his emails was so aggressive that we had security outside the meeting room during the firing. He was escorted out with security too. He seemed genuinely bewildered, as though we fired him for eating all the office snacks. 

    His wife phoned me later that day, saying he was distressed we chose to do this over a “mistake”. She asked me to reconsider because he doesn’t know what he’s doing when he’s upset. She told him not to send any more emails after Saturday morning and he didn’t, which showed he was mature and considerate. He complained that security escort was embarrassing and unnecessary because of course he wasn’t going to do anything. He later emailed me to say he was deeply saddened but was going to be the bigger man and forgive me.

    I can’t stop thinking about this. It boggles my mind he – and his wife – seem oblivious to how totally justified and self inflicted the firing was. 

    Since penal colony isn’t an option, can someone help explain the psychology of the stupid so I can process why people behave and think in such bizarre ways? 

      1. Sharon*

        Yeah, it’s definitely a red flag when somebody else (spouse, parent, roommate) starts trying to intervene in your work relationships. Either that third party is overstepping and needs to be told to back off or the employee doesn’t have the skills to succeed in the job or both.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m always amused at “he doesn’t know what he’s doing” or “she just can’t help being that way” as an excuse for bad behavior, especially when it’s used to explain why you should continue to welcome the person into your life. Yes, a man who “doesn’t know what he’s doing when he’s upset” is definitely someone I want to employ.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        But also: he knows enough when to stop! So it’s not just “I have anger management issues and can’t control myself” or whatever, since he clearly can at some point.

        1. Archi-detect*

          which can be boiled all the way down to “I haven’t attacked anyone, yet” heck of a reassurance, that

      2. Tio*

        Right? You’re basically saying “You can expect repeats of this behavior in the future.” Like… why would we sign up for this?

        Psychologically speaking, not a psych person obviously, but a lot of people seem to think that asking people to ignore a behavior is the same as the behavior not happening. They equate it like pressing mute on a tv when it’s too loud; no serious consequences happened, you weren’t ACTALLY (read: physically) hurt, so what is the big deal? This usually falls in with the “you’re too sensitive/can’t take a joke” type.

      3. learnedthehardway*

        Like that’s some kind of reason for keeping the person on, right?!??!

        Sorry, but that just makes the person even LESS appealing.

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      I think this crossed the line from stupidity to delusion, and I would let HR know about his follow-up behavior. (It gives stalker vibes to me, honestly.)

      1. pally*

        Please do this! If there’s a security dept let them know as well to keep an eye out should he show up.

        This ex-employee was “newish”. The emails threatening to sue for a simple nonreply is baffling – to say the least. And no one knows his character enough to be sure he won’t show up again – in some fashion. The last thing you want is someone saying, “Gee, I didn’t know that guy was a bit unhinged. I would have taken measures if I had known” after he tries to harm someone.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            Especially since his wife seems to be in a folie au deux with him concerning his behavior and might encourage that.

            1. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

              I’m worried about his wife, tbh: obviously we can’t know anything about their relationship but “my husband can’t help what he does when he gets angry” is scary to me.

        2. Ama*

          I used to work in a support position with academics who could be very high maintenance and would sometimes panic if they had a question and you didn’t respond right away (I worked normal office hours; academics didn’t always consider that I wasn’t going to respond to an email sent on Saturday until Monday morning).

          However, even the most panicky of them (people who would send multiple emails over the weekend and sometimes even try calling my office phone multiple times) NEVER flipped into any language that could be considered threatening to me. No threats to sue (WTF), not even any strong language.

          Even when compared to people who don’t have good boundaries, Bob is WAY out of bounds.

      2. Momma Bear*

        Yes, I would let HR know she called and he emailed. All the more reason to keep him gone – if he’s that delusional, what else would he do to people later? Some things don’t get a 2nd chance. Maybe don’t threaten people and you won’t get a security escort.

        1. Dog momma*

          …and maybe that’s why she called..he’s going off the rails & that seemed to calm him down..just another viewpoint

    4. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      I don’t know if it’s stupidity.. It sounds like Bob has serious issues – hopefully he uses this as a wakeup call and gets some help

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Have you heard of internet-invented meme/idea, “Main Character ‘Syndrome'”? This sound like a case of that (the former employee) with someone who enables him (the wife).

      To be clear, it’s not a real diagnosis, just an internet-created thing. The idea is that se people see themselves as the center of the universe and everything (and everyone) is background or support to their lives, as well as being on their side (unless they’re a villain).

      1. dulcinea47*

        Is this just a funny way to say “narcissism”? that kind of demanding an instant answer isn’t really a key component of narcissism, I don’t think, but that’s what it sounds like from the name.

        1. A Significant Tree*

          I think the jokey “Main Character Syndrome” is more generally about ego-centrism, just being oblivious that you’re not the star of everyone else’s story. My teenager definitely has this going on, but I wouldn’t call it narcissism, exactly (unless the main character is a villain?).

          This guy? Definitely glad to hear he was called to account and fired over totally inappropriate behavior. It’s unfortunate that he and his wife don’t understand that it’s not enough that he was able to stop his weirdly demanding and aggressive behavior and he supposedly felt bad after the fact. The issue is that a) his initial reaction was WAY over the top and b) someone had to tell him to stop.

          1. CubeFarmer*

            I think you’re right. According to the internet everyone is a narcissist, when most of the time, people are just being jerks.

        2. Bunch Harmon*

          I don’t think it’s narcissism – at least not always. I’ve know a couple of narcissists, but the people I would say have “main character syndrome” are more oblivious. I have a colleague will talk your ear off about the minutea of her children’s halloween costumes, but never asks about my kid. She triggered an investigation because of something she had done quite innocently. This is not uncommon for our industry. When I was in a similar experience, I was annoyed but otherwise glad the system worked. This colleague was devastated that by the investigation, and complained on and on about “how could people think she would do something so bad.”

          1. Sloanicota*

            I also know a lot of people who write a LOT more aggressively in text / email than they ever would face to face, and almost seem to “forget” that the person reading it still reads it in their voice and as something they said.

            1. Nesta*

              We have experienced this with our students in higher education. Even when they are writing to people they know, sometimes they get very hyped up behind the keyboard, getting more and more self-righteous and angry as they await a response.

        3. Meep*

          Its more “Narcissism Lite” or “Selfish Extra Large”. A lot of people can experience symptoms of narcissism without actually having NPD (studies show that NPD and other personality disorders are not hereditary, but might actually be due to long-term exposure and rewiring of the brain from being around others with that PD). I know I had to snap myself out of a lot of narcissistic behavior after being exposed to it non-stop five years.

          Basically, the idea is you are self-centered enough to think everyone else around you is a Non-Player Character (NPC) that is only present when you need them. And it has become more prevalent with social media culture and the fact we are slowly dehumanizing other humans by interacting without seeing their face. That gets transferred over into “real-life” in the way you see here. Him not understanding why he is not getting an instant reply to something he sent out into the ether.

        4. Nah*

          Not everyone that behaves poorly has a personality disorder, people can just be jerks or full of themselves/their own importance without having NPD.

    6. RetailIsDetail*

      How disturbing! I’m wondering if this might be an abusive situation. Domestic violence tends to spike after big changes or major life events like losing a job. If his wife is concerned about her safety now that he’s at home 24/7 — and if he blows up at her and escalates IRL the way he did over email, I wouldn’t be surprised if she was terrified! — that might explain her call. Of course you’ll have a better sense of this couple based on speaking with them, but I’ve been volunteering at a Domestic Violence Resource Center and behavior of entitled abusers seems very familiar.

      1. Archi-detect*

        yeah that is a fair assesment but I don’t know if they could do anything about it- a welfare check or replying to them would probably be a bad idea, but it is definitely a concern

    7. Seashell*

      I don’t think it’s stupidity. If Bob needs his wife to tell him to stop threatening his manager with lawsuits over one unanswered email, he’s probably not mentally stable.

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      The underlying reasoning for his wife is that she would like Bob to hold down a job. She’s trying to manage his behavior by pointing out when he’s way outside norms, and is frustrated that that isn’t enough. Were she to write to an advice columnist, the format would be molehill on a mountain: that she had focused tightly in on this one little thing that seemed like she could control it (appealing to the latest employer to see how Bob could take feedback), and was missing all the larger context about the very large things that are wrong but also seem insoluble.

    10. Rex Libris*

      Wow. Just, wow. My only guess is that maybe he came from an upbringing that taught him temper tantrums were a productive way to get what you want, and his wife continues to enable it so he still responds to every obstacle like he’s an out of control toddler?

      I’m amazed that she couldn’t see that “He doesn’t know what he’s doing when he’s upset” supports the case for firing, not forgiving, I mean, what’s he going to do after his first negative performance review, or when somebody accidentally eats his lunch, or takes his favorite pen, or, or, or?

      Big of him to forgive you. Practically enlightened. /s

      1. Rex Libris*

        After reading some of the above comments that came in while I was typing, I agree it does sound like it could be an abuse situation, and the wife could be panicking because losing the job will set him off. I hope this isn’t the case, but if he’s that unhinged it makes it even more critical to get him out of the workplace and away from the rest of the staff.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          And the “he doesn’t know what he’s doing” is a classic excuse from both abusers and their victims.

    11. Meep*

      OK. I cracked up. At least your employees will have more snacks again!

      To answer your question: Because most people lack common sense.

    12. CommanderBanana*

      This reminds me of the reader who wrote to AAM after she went on a spiral after a coworker didn’t say goodbye to her and ended up going to their house, contacting them repeatedly, etc., and got fired for it (if anyone remembers the title and wants to link it, thanks in advance). If I’m remembering right, there was an update and the writer said they had an anxiety disorder that they were working on managing better.

      At the end of the day, the why behind Bob’s behavior really doesn’t matter, and it’s fortunately not your problem anymore, although it’s hard not to wonder when you encounter people like that.

        2. CubeFarmer*

          I don’t know if I remember the original letter, but I hope that LW is doing much, much better in the seven years since writing in.

          1. Anglonemi*

            There is a lovely update on Dec 25 2018, it looked like the LW finally got the help they needed and had really turned a corner.

    13. LaminarFlow*

      I don’t think this is explainable. Bob displayed such poor judgement throughout this whole situation, and having security present for his termination was a good call.

      I get why this is haunting you – I once had an interview candidate bring photos of me that came up in a basic Google image search to his interview (my LinkedIn photo, a few charity fundraisers, that kind of thing). He also printed my LinkedIn profile out. I excused myself from the interview room when he brought the photos out, and called security. They quickly arrived and ushered him out. The candidate ended up messaging the recruiters he worked with for scheduling to ask when he would be rescheduled. I was relieved that the recruiting team messaged him back with something along the lines of “your conduct was inappropriate, and you will not be considered for employment here.”

      Some people are just a little off. You did the right thing.

      2. Seashell*

        I wonder what inspired the photo printing. Was he trying to recognize you when he saw you? Was he trying to impress you with his Googling skills or show how much research he did because he really wanted the job?

        It’s definitely odd, but it may have been inspired by something benign or by taking bad advice.

    15. H.Regalis*

      I don’t think it’s stupidity. I think he’s a self-centered, entitled person who is willing to use threats of violence to try to get his way. Then when anyone stands up to him in the slightest, he immediately back pedals and plays the victim. That’s all pretty standard shitty behavior.

    16. Generic Name*

      This sounds very much like my ex-husband. I am not a psychologist by any means, but over the years of being married to him and then being divorced from him (while he continually takes me to court) I’ve learned some things. In no particular order, I’ve noticed that he:
      -is entitled and controlling. He thinks that just because he has a desire, it should be granted to him (and it especially should be granted without him asking- you should just KNOW and provide)
      -is delusional. I mean this in the general sense, and not the psychological sense. Delusions such as “I feel persecuted therefore I AM persecuted”.
      -exhibits symptoms of paranoia. Because he feels persecuted, he will twist the facts to fit the story of persecution he has built in his head.
      -nothing is ever his fault. He is always the victim. He is blameless and can do no wrong. If things go wrong in his life, it is everyone else’s fault.
      -perpetual victim. Closely related to nothing ever being his fault. Not only is nothing his fault, but he is unfairly persecuted. By his job, his ex (me), the government.

      WHY is he like this? Honestly, I’ve given up wondering or caring about the why. He is just an unstable person who is not mentally healthy, and refuses to do anything about it. As for his wife, well, she has likely been trained by his outsize reactions over the years to walk on eggshells, and her reaching out is likely her attempt to keep the peace at home.

    17. RagingADHD*

      You don’t mention how old Bob is, which could be a factor in how long he’s been able to get away with this, but I don’t think he’s actually as stupid as you think. Two possibilities come to mind:

      1) He has, either by coincidence or careful selection, stayed all this time in environments where his behavior was rewarded or tolerated, and he is surprised that consequences actually happened this time, or

      b) The bewilderment is part and parcel of his act, and is simply a final attempt to avoid or minimize the consequences.

      Did you check references on this guy? What’s his work history like? Any chance he’s fabricated a lot of it, or left stuff out?

    18. HD*

      This is someone who’s not used to receiving consequences for his actions. He found a wife and probably has a family and friend circle that enables him and rotates around him. He was expecting his boss to kowtow to his anger and was thrown off when they weren’t. He’s testing you right now to see if you can be manipulated. “Forgiving” you for something you haven’t done is big with this type.

    19. HonorBox*

      To quote Ron Burgundy, “well that escalated quickly.” Suing a manager because they don’t respond to an email, let alone one that comes after hours on a Friday, is such a strange step that it seems like this guy doesn’t understand how business works. I’d take his wife’s call as confirmation that you did the right thing. If he doesn’t know what he’s doing when he’s upset, and he was upset because he didn’t get an immediate response to an email, think of what could happen if he had reason to ACTUALLY be upset.

      I would alert your HR and security about the call from his wife, and the email from him. At the very least, they’re alerted to the fact that contact has continued from this former employee. And if something happens, or if he shows up to talk to someone, they can be ready to escort him out … again.

    20. DD*

      Wow. This may be a record for number of red flags in one incident
      1. The incident itself – multiple threatening e-mails and calls
      2. Spouse involvement – multiple red flags within that one red flag
      3. Not understanding what he did was worthy of termination
      4. Even though he left unhinged and threatening emails and voice mails you should have known he wouldn’t have done anything.
      5. “Forgiving” comment and being the bigger man
      6. He doesn’t know what he’s doing when he’s upset so it isn’t his fault
      7. Being that upset a boss isn’t answering a non-emergency question after hours on a weekend (even if it was an emergency it wouldn’t excuse his unhinged behavior).
      8. Its not fair – he deserves more chances.

      1. Nah*

        Please don’t start with the internet commentary diagnosing, it’s exhausting. People can be shitty human beings without having mental disorders.

    22. NaoNao*

      I don’t think this is “stupid”. I think this is a person who has little or no emotional regulation and his “handler” who has cleaned up his mistakes and smoothed it over his whole life (taking over from his mom, is my guess) and he’s finally facing the consequences of his actions and choices for maybe one of the few first times *ever*.

      It sounds to me like he’s entitled, self-centered, and oblivious but not “stupid” per se. Stupid is that amusing ditty about “I put the glass in the microwave…” not this!

      But yes, it’s still baffling and irritating.

    23. EngineerRN*

      Because they think they’re entitled to endless second chances.

      This is the result of someone whose personal life folks have never held them accountable for bad behavior (the wife calling in is bizarre!).

    24. Bitte Meddler*

      There was a guy like this at the company I worked for during the Great Recession.

      The tiniest things would set him off. Everything was unfair; every company decision was done AT him; he was a victim in every aspect of his life.

      He finally got fired after being caught looking at corn on his work laptop while in his work cubicle during work hours. Actually, it was the *second* time he was caught. The first time, he got a warning.

      We saw him on our local evening news a week or two later being interviewed as a “victim” of the Great Recession. He was telling everyone that he had been let go in a wave of layoffs!

      Then, I think it was 5 or 6 months later, we heard that he’d died of a heart attack.

      It made sense. He was a hothead who got VERY ANGRY over the tiniest of things, like there not being the specific size of band-aid he wanted in the first aid kit. I’d imagine that ramping up your cortisol and other stress hormones dozens of times a day would take a toll on your heart.

      Someone said they felt sorry for his wife, and we all murmured agreement. But, secretly, I was wondering if it came as a huge relief. It couldn’t have been easy living with a ticking time bomb that didn’t have a countdown screen.

    25. ampersand*

      Wow, his wife is doing some serious mental gymnastics to explain away his behavior. Good call firing him and having security escort him out! Being embarrassed is the least of his problems.

  4. Bah humbug*

    I think I might try to skip my work holiday dinner next month….The company is spread out but there are only a small handful of us in my current city, so we’re going to get dinner somewhere (and bring +1s). The only people I work with are “Lila”, a peer-level coworker and “Arthur”, a C-level executive who oversees my boss’s boss and the entire department. Lila is extremely loud and obnoxious but Arthur is overbearing and one of the most exhausting and draining people I’ve ever met. Those two are going to take over the entire conversation for everyone and I don’t think I have the energy to deal with it, even for a few hours.

    I already work closely with Arthur and I’ve met with him a few times earlier this year in person, but the others going to the dinner haven’t. With both Arthur and Lila, they are both so loud and domineering, I know I’m going to get overwhelmed and shut down and get really quiet.

    This dinner is on a Tuesday, I think I might call in sick that Monday, and then Tuesday, and will be sure to say how much I wish I could be there.
    Please tell me I’m not the only person to do this lol

    1. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      I think you’re fine, the only thing is if there are just three people be prepared for the others to suggest moving it to a different date to accommodate you

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Maybe it would be safest to start coming down with something Tuesday afternoon. Too late to change plans!

    2. Not A Manager*

      If you have the sick time anyway, taking a planned 4 day long weekend sounds like a great solution.

    3. Rex Libris*

      Personally, I wouldn’t want to burn my sick time for something like this. It’s a pity that you have so many family commitments during the holidays that it’s really difficult for you to make time for a work event though. Especially that thing you already committed to with your parents, relatives, in-laws, outlaws, whoever that suddenly got moved to that Tuesday.

    5. Jules the First*

      I am absolutely overjoyed to have discovered that my office Christmas bash is the same day as my son’s preschool Christmas fair. Work has been told that I can’t possibly miss out on the fair and preschool has been told that I’d love to be there but the office Christmas thing is a required event. The small human and I will have a festive movie night and hot cocoa snuggled on the sofa…

      1. KEWLM0M*

        Beware the small humans, though! The one I have here would spill the beans at pre-school in a heartbeat!

        1. Jules the First*

          I have the best excuse ever for suddenly running out of energy for either event and spending the night at home – I’ll be 11 weeks pregnant (assuming all goes smoothly!). But this small human is alarmingly good at keeping secrets too.

  5. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    Here is something the California Attorney General recently put out to advise California workers of their rights when it comes to non-competes, no-poach agreements, and agreements that require employees to reimburse an employer for necessary training or pay for employer-supplied equipment (or as the AG calls them, “employer-driven debt products”):

    https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-issues-consumer-alert-reminding-california-workers-their

    Also interesting are some new laws that went into effect this year, one that allows former employees in California to sue (and recover attorney fees) a former employer that tries to enforce a non-compete even if signed out of state for work done out of state. So if you move to California to take a job and your former out-of-state employer tries to come after you for violating a non-compete, California is NOT having that kind of interference in its labor market.

    1. Massive Dynamic*

      I love my state – this is amazing. I only learned about noncompetes a few years ago, from this website. It’s just not a thing over here and we never want it to be.

    2. Filosofickle*

      I’m glad to hear this because I am currently under to a non-compete signed with an employer based in another state (though I live and work in CA) and I wasn’t sure what state’s rules prevailed. It’s not one that will limit me much but it’s good to know!

      I love CA too. The state does a lot to protect us — health care, environment, civil rights, labor — and I’m grateful.

  6. Susie and Elaine Problem*

    My office is doing a Yankee Swap gift exchange next month ($20 limit). Any good ideas for a weird gift that won’t “cross the line”?

      1. Orange m&m*

        Oooooh. That’s a good $20-25 gift! I’m going to remember that. I usually gift a small Sees Candy box.

      2. AnotherOne*

        we had a random blanket that was super popular last year.

        one year someone made a mug using an AI generated image from key words related to our department- that was both really creative and really popular.

        i personally tend to go for gifts that cost me as much less than $20 as possible but look like I spent $20. for this year, I have a set of corkcicle stemless wine glasses with lids that my mom found on clearance last year at marshall’s for $7/each. they’re within budget, practical for where we live, and can be used with alcohol but don’t need to be.

        i don’t think it’s possible to guess any year, what will be popular.

        1. Nemy*

          Second this, I always bring a blanket as it’s cheap and everyone can use an additional one in the office or at home.

          1. JSPA*

            SpillNot? Handmade mug from your local university’s student pottery sale? Animal-face beanie hat? Multicolor / fancy knitted gloves? Box of specialty ramen noodle flavors from many countries (if living somwhere where that takes a little effort to assemble)?

      3. M&M Mom*

        Great idea, I’m doing this!
        Last year, I bought the tortilla blanket, but it was not a big hit. I’m really not sure why.

    3. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Look at Buzzfeed shopping–they have massive lists of different kinds of gifts, including weird and unusual.

      I would personally recommend a tortilla blanket (aka, a round blanket that looks like a tortilla). Those run around $20 and are actually quite nice, but still funny.

      2. Bunch Harmon*

        We got my son a tortilla towel when he was a toddler, just so I could wrap him up and call him my baby burrito.

    4. Neosmom*

      The card game “Poetry for Neanderthals” comes to mind. It is a fun, team game with the object of getting your team to guess the word on the card by describing it using one syllable words.

      2. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

        Seconding Poetry for Neanderthals and games in general. Uno Flip is pretty popular in my circle.

    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t know that I would go for weird, depending on your definition of “weird”, but unexpected could work? I was thinking about Alison’s gift guide that has stuff like the desktop vacuum on it, and something like that could work. I bought the vacuum for myself and I love it, and would be kinda excited for something like that to show up in a Yankee Swap.

    6. Jessica Ganschen*

      My first thought is some kind of obscure/one-note kitchen gadget with a funny theme, like a garlic press that’s shaped like a duck or a corkscrew that has a little green alien on top.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      Nerdwax has really fun cleaning clothes for glasses, etc. that look like things you should not clean your glasses with (sandpaper, a tortilla, etc.)

      1. RLC*

        Took a look and these are hilarious! Seem like they could be useful for so many people as the cloths may be used to clean phone and tablet screens as well as glasses. Also so many work-safe designs.

      1. merlinite*

        I once did a basket of a nice quality pancake mix, local syrup from the farmers market, and chocolate chips and it was hit.

    9. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      To some people Yankee Swap / White Elephant means funny or weird gifts and to others it means regular cozy holiday gifts (candle, fuzzy blanket, coffee gift card, etc.). Make sure you know your office’s vibe- this was an issue for my office once, where only 1 person interpreted it as “weird gifts” and the person who ultimately got the super weird gift was bummed.

      Anyway I will recommend a 2025 “dog shaming” daily calendar as a nice bridge between both.

      1. Retirednow*

        There was just a whole big discussion about this recently. How these terms are different for different people so definitely doublecheck.

      2. Aggretsuko*

        I was always the “I want and give weird gifts” person. However, most people are normal and just end up with candles or coffee or whatever.

        Lottery tickets will be stolen with great force, there’s an idea.

        1. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

          If you do lottery tickets, don’t do a fake ticket! If you get real tickets and none of them are winners, at least the anticipation can be fun. With a fake ticket, the person is going to be pissed when they go from elation to disappointment – and there’s the chance they’ll something bad when they think it’s a winner like insulting their boss or quitting on the spot.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        That happened to me in a (themed) group one time. I brought a really nice poster and I ended up with a plastic banana. :(

    10. Friday Hopeful*

      I like the suggestion from Neosmom of Poetry for Neanderthals. I’d also add Exploding Kittens is also a fun game. Games are perfect for gifts and its fun, and always approporiate (just makes sure its not Cards for Humanity)

    11. JMR*

      Last year at our gift exchange, I ended up with a set of “taco trucks,” these plastic truck-shaped taco stands that you use for hard-shell tacos, so all the fillings don’t fall out. I use them all the time on White People Taco Night. :-)

    12. Peanut Hamper*

      Go to the dollar store and buy a storage bin with a lid. (Everybody needs a storage bin, right?) Fill it with a bunch of the weird quirky stuff you can find there. Holiday stuff, band-aids, office supplies, fake flowers, etc. Definitely quirky, and they get a whole lot of little things which is pretty fun.

      1. Kaden Lee*

        I did a variant of this last year but with snacks and drinks (coffee mug, cookies, crackers, syrups, etc). It was neutrally received at best. Your mileage may vary with this one.

    13. Liane*

      In past years, Alison has posted suggested work gift lists. My break is almost over, so I don’t have time to search for a link, sorry.

    14. Q without U*

      People go nuts for scratch offs. The most excited I’ve seen people get at a gift exchange was for a small bag of Lindt truffles with a bunch of scratch offs attached.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        There is a WHOLE ENTIRE STORE of Lindt truffles not far from my new work. :D
        I found it when I went to a convention nearby. It’s expensive, though. I usually look for them when they go on sale at other places, but I had to get some there at least once because they have alllllll the flavors.

        Everyone loves these; they’re a great pick for Secret Santa or whatever. My mom keeps a candy bowl full of them for her patients who come to the house.

    15. Strive to Excel*

      I got a tiny desktop fountain from somewhere. It was ~$15, battery powered, very quiet, and maybe 7 inches cubic size.

      2. Reluctant Mezzo*

        They used to be known as JerryCo, and their catalog descriptions have to be read to be believed.

    18. Pyanfar*

      The best one I saw was a half gallon container of Olive Oil. Right at the price point, weird, but completely non-offensive.

    19. Strive to Excel*

      Things that people have stolen multiple times in prior Yankee Swaps I’ve attended:

      A funny microfiber blanket (I think it might have been Tortilla-shaped! But not positive)
      A cold brew coffee maker
      Socks with cats on them
      A New Hope: the Novel…by Shakespeare (good for a nerdy group, eternal bonus points if the recipient is willing to do a 30-second read)
      2 pounds of M&Ms

    20. The OG Sleepless*

      I got a tiny waffle iron awhile back. It was fairly cheap so eventually the hinge broke, but until then we got lots of use out of it!

    21. RedinSC*

      I always find something funny at Walgreens, which is a specific drug store here in CA (may be at other places). I just wander around and there’s always something perfect for a gift swap!

    22. Stretchy McGillicuddy*

      The two gifts that got fought over the most at my office last year were the heated blanket and a hot sauce gift basket. Only two people wanted the hot sauce but they both really, really wanted it. The IT guy ultimately won out when the other person realized they did not want to be on his bad side.

    23. Pocket Mouse*

      I brought fancy-ish pickles one year and it was perfect. Easy to get a decent quantity/variety for the price limit, some people will really want them, some people will really NOT want them, and it’s unusual enough to qualify as an oddball choice without being in any way offensive.

    24. Sharon*

      We like things like a very ugly coffee mug with a Starbucks gift card, so the recipient (1) gets something good in case they are stuck with the ugly mug and (2) has a chance to have the ugly mug stolen away because somebody wants the gift card. A few of these “dud prizes” get regifted year after year, so some are old friends and part of the challenge is creative wrapping so people won’t guess what it is.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Yes to the dud gift! My mom’s friends have this monstrosity of a tealight candle holder that gets passed around every year. It’s like a gold twisty 2 foot tall structure that loosely looks like a tree – it’s tacky and huge and really awful. The trick is that whoever got it last year has to try and hide what it is so someone else gets tricked into choosing it, and people have gotten really creative with it. I do think they keep a backup real gift so no one actually ends up with nothing.

        However you have to make sure everyone is on board with it, it reminds me of the story here about the fruitcake dud gift that got passed around an office for years until it ended up with an intern who didn’t know it was a joke and actually ate it.

        2. Katydid*

          This happened at my office with some kind of “fajita maker”, it was a very large unnecessary appliance and just kept getting added every year to the mix.

    25. A Simple Narwhal*

      The card game “What do you Meme?” was a big hit at my family yankee swap last year!

      (Disclaimer: I have never actually played myself, so I’m not sure if there’s content in it that would make it NSFW. The premise itself is safe for work – match funny meme photos to funny captions, so maybe double check if you think people are going to want to play at the office.)

      Other than that, popular swap gifts have always been scratch tickets and giftcards, usually attached to a candy bar, mug, or other silly/cheap item to make the package more interesting than an envelope.

    27. Morgi Corgi*

      When we did are Yankee Swap last year it was mostly chocolate and lotto cards. People REALLY wanted the lottery cards (I don’t play the lottery so I don’t really understand the appeal, but I’m glad people liked them so much). One of the employees won $200! The chocolate also went over well (people got expensive, fancy chocolate).

    30. Pucci*

      If you live in an area with a regional food culture, a cookbook of that food. A friend’s workplace in Minnesota had a gift exchange with a $5 limit – she brought a 2nd hand cookbook of Hot Dish Recipes.

    32. Anita Brake*

      {Disclaimer: Eat before you read this.} A Squatty Potty. It’s helpful with #2.
      or
      Batteries. Lots of batteries. AA, AAA. People can always use these.
      or
      A Home Depot, Lowe’s, or whichever bucket with duct tape, crazy glue, and other useful cheap-ish stuff (they’ll use it!)
      or
      Poo-Pourri (the stuff you spray in the toilet before you poop so the room doesn’t smell bad when you’re done).
      or
      Zip ties. They’re handy for so many things!
      or
      A flashlight and replacement batteries (who couldn’t use a flashlight?)

    33. Emmie*

      – A pizza cutter that plays your local football team’s fight song or says it’s common slogan (“America’s Team”)
      – Local coffee shop gift card
      – If McDonald’s still has them, a pack of their Halloween coupons / gift cards (for ice cream or soda)
      – If you’re in a major city, a Metro/public transportation card

      1. Emmie*

        Amazon has amazing novelty pizza cutters – a cat, a bike, a saw, and a potentially offensive axe …

    34. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

      One year at my old office, someone brought a giant bag of cereal marshmallows that proved to be really popular. I’m also a fan of weird board games — there are plenty around $20 at Target or most bookstores.

    35. jm*

      I found small collectible baskets at a thrift shop and filled with peppermints or Hersheys kisses. These weren’t as fun as some but still a hit

    36. AlabamaAnonymous*

      I have two gift ideas that I have used in the past that were big hits.
      #1 a bunch of batteries (however you can buy for the spending limit) with a note that says “Batteries only. Gift not included.” That one always gets a laugh!
      #2 a bunch of toothbrushes (again, however you can buy for the spending limit — this works best with cheaper toothbrushes so you have more of them). I took that to a Yankee swap one year, and it was one of the most fought-over gifts. The person who got them was going to use them for stocking stuffers for her family.)

  7. AnonJustInCase*

    I work for an organization as a manger that places a huge focus on being liked. AKA an employee recently left, cited his manager as the reason (specifically that the manager didn’t choose him for a promotion to another team) and it caused a THING.

    So how the heck do I navigate this, continue to have tough conversations as warranted and occasionally make unpopular decisions…working for a company that seems to think managers have to be liked?

    I’m not saying it’s my goal to be mean…I’m just not sure how to be both a people pleaser and a manager???

    I’d love your thoughts, commentariat.

        1. AnonJustInCase*

          My boss told me I’m good as long as I’m “friendly but not friends” which is great…but that is not the “they quit because they don’t like YOU” (not me, I promise LOL) vibe that’s coming from the top. After speaking to the manager involved they were grilled over what they had done to make the employee dislike them.

          All I could think was…manage an unpopular decision is enough.

          1. Caramel & Cheddar*

            Oh yeah, that’s totally weird. Can your boss have a conversation with them about how, realistically, managers simply cannot always be liked because they will sometimes have to make unpopular decisions, there could be personality clashes, etc.? Like we need to respect each other as colleagues and move forward with decisions, but we cannot control if everyone is liked and, frankly, we shouldn’t want to either.

          2. Great Frogs of Literature*

            I would talk to your boss about this, because realistically, you can’t be both a people pleaser and a good manager. Either you’re going to make bad management decisions because you’re trying to keep everyone happy, or you’re going to make tough decisions and someone will be unhappy. (Probably. You might have a charmed management career where you can walk the line and be both, but it seems statistically unlikely.)

            I’d say something like, “I was concerned about the response to John quitting; it seemed to me that Henrietta was censured for making a well-reasoned decision that happened to be one John didn’t like, and I’m worried that I could find myself in a position where I might have to make an unpopular decision and experience similar repercussions.”

            And if your boss can’t set your mind at ease, I recommend looking for a new job. You can take your time about it, and wait for something that’s a good fit, but a company where that’s the expectation of managers is not one where I would want to invest my career.

    2. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      It’s not unreasonable to leave a job if you didn’t get a promotion and maybe feel like you’re stuck somewhere. Unless you’re just supposed to give everyone in the company anything they want, I don’t get what the manager could have done differently

      1. AnonJustInCase*

        Apparently it’s a “if the person liked you they would have stayed even not getting the promotion”.

        It’s odd.

    3. Qwerty*

      You don’t know what all was said in the exit interview. It is very likely that other things came up as well, but the promotion is the most black and white item. Even if we stick to just that, here’s some options:

      – Was more interested in the “moving to another team” part of the promotion and is leaving because he is stuck with said manager
      – Didn’t feel like the manager supported him in getting the experience needed for the promotion
      – Felt like the manager led him on about getting the promotion, then was blindsided when it went to someone else
      – Didn’t feel like he’d ever get promoted under that manager
      – Had lots of problems with that manager and this was the last straw

      As a manager, it is also important to know the flight risk status of employees. If not getting this promotion would result in an employee immediately leaving, the manager should have flagged that. Not as a reason to give the promotion, but so the company is prepared and can either have a backup plan or show support for the guy to get him to stay.

      Managers who are both good and well liked are rarely people pleasers. You want to support the team, be approachable, and help with professional growth / blockers. If a manager is disliked, people tend to leave or be unhappy at work, and usually it is a sign of other problems. There’s a huge chasm between “mean” and “people pleaser” to explore.

    4. Angstrom*

      “Like” as a boss or “like” as a person?
      One of my best bosses was someone that I wouldn’t want to socialize with outside of work. As a manager they were great — took good care of their people, worked to see them advance, absolutely honest, absolutely trustworthy. We worked well together. In many ways our personalities were opposites — their weekends always seemed to involve vats of alcohol and things being broken. Yes, I liked them as a boss, but we would never be buddies.
      It’s more important that managers be respected and trusted. “Are they a good person to work for?” is a much better question than “Do you like them?”

      1. AnonJustInCase*

        This. I don’t mix work and personal. Ever.

        I wouldn’t do anything with them on weekends that isn’t a work event. My life is pretty full and it’s just too awkward to spend non work time with direct reports.

        It’s just odd as I almost feel like I should be different to keep out of the mess.

    5. HonorBox*

      I think if you can be friendly with people, and then when you have to make an unpopular or tough decision that might upset some folks, do so with kindness and respect. Example: if your team is working on a task and in order to finish by the deadline, you’re going to need people to put in some extra hours, you feed them, you understand and offer flexibility if someone has a commitment already scheduled, and you let them know as far in advance as possible that it might be an issue and continue to update them so they can plan accordingly. Sometimes you have to make that tough call, but if you can show understanding and realize that people are both human (and have human needs) and have lives outside of work, that’s going to show through.

    6. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Do you have a sense of how much of this is actually a problem for you? I say this meaning, presumably you have your own read of how your relationship with your own staff is. If you generally have a solid relationship with your own staff, it becomes a little easier to put this in the “not my monkey, not my circus” pile.

      You do need to be political about it in the sense of acknowledging to C Suite that staff retention and overall employee morale matters, but I find as long as you agree on that kind of core value, it’s easier to say you can handle the specifics yourself for your own team.

  8. Holy Fork*

    my current company wants to transfer me to a new city and get a really good promotion working with/for the big wigs.

    I am somewhere between excited and scared. They want me moved by 1 Jan. I have been in my current city for 25 years.

    BUT it is still in stealth mode and not 100% confirmed. So… just in a holding pattern. trying not to jump the gun or freak out.

    1. Visit*

      That’s not a lot of time to move given holiday slowdowns. If you don’t hear soon I might ask if it can be delayed until Jan 15 or Feb 1.

      I strongly recommend a trip that includes a weekday or two before deciding to move. It will help you figure out areas you are/are not willing to live in, how much of a commute you’d actually be accepting, what’s near the new office, and generally get a feel for the new place.

      If you have a family that would be moving with you, take them even if they have to miss some school or work.

      Good luck!

      1. Holy Fork*

        Luckily it’s a city i am *very* familiar with, as it’s where I grew up. So “new” might’ve been misstating it — it’s new to my career, not my life.

        No family moving with me — just cats.

        1. JSPA*

          When traveling with cats, if they’re not veteran travelers–and if there may be time in one or more hotels or long-stay places before finding a new apartment or house–it can be worth doing a local overnight or two (or even a few-hour hotel stay) with the cats, beforehand, to get them (and you) used to “cats in a strange place.” (Learning to plug gaps under / behind headboards or immovable beds with towels; learning to check for crawl space behind/under sinks and vanities; figuring out how to site a litterbox in the only bathroom while keeping it human-usable; covering mirrors if your cats don’t handle floor-level mirrors, etc etc.)

          If someone can cat sit at old place while you go in advance to look for a place, even better.

      1. Holy Fork*

        With an aging parent, I am not sure if it is 100% what I want, but it was definitely the long term plan to be closer to him.

    3. EngineerRN*

      I’ve done a similarly-timed move across the country, but we were leaving behind an apartment.

      If you have a spouse & especially if you have kids in school, plan for your spouse to stay behind long enough to reasonably get the house ready to sell. Move ahead, but just stay in temporary accommodations (airbnb, weekly hotel, etc.).

      If at all possible, let the kid finish out the school year before joining you. That will make the transition easier, give you and your spouse more time to find housing in the new location, and more time to sell the current home.

      Decluttering for a big move, especially after living in a home for 25 years, is a BIG job, one that cannot reasonably be done over the holidays.

      1. EngineerRN*

        Just saw the comment about the cats!

        I’d plan to hire someone to help you declutter prior to the move, which may include traveling back and forth during your first month on the job.

    4. Bonkers*

      Congrats! But also, wow that’s a tight timeline! When is it going to be confirmed? I’d be having panic attacks if I *probably but not for sure* needed to move to a new city in six weeks, and those six weeks also contained two major holidays.

  9. SleepyHollow*

    Ok, how do you deal when you know another employee on your level is on an improvement plan, but you don’t know when the end will actually come? And they’re making no progress and it’s impacting you?

    Basically I work with Silas. Silas and I are in completely different roles in our company, but we work together regularly on projects and we have the same boss and we are on the same level of the org chart. Silas has many obvious performance issues. I know my boss is aware of these and aware that the fault is with Silas. I’ve raised concerns with my boss about Silas’s performance and the response I got was enough to make me like 95% sure that Silas has been placed on a PIP without my boss directly saying this.

    Great! There’s a plan! Unfortunately I don’t have any kind of visibility into the timeline of the PIP and I’m having to cover some of the gaps left on projects by Silas’s lack of performance. It’s becoming increasingly frustrating because Silas just doesn’t seem to be making any improvements or changing his ways at all. I’m starting to feel like sometimes my own work suffers because I need to focus on making sure Silas’s parts of the projects don’t fall through the gaps, and some of Silas’s work I’m being instructed to leave to a poorer quality than I’d like because he needs to take ownership of his portions of the projects.

    My boss is aware of my frustrations, aware that the additional workload is an unfair ask, and has repeatedly told me that he appreciates my efforts and sees what I’m doing. He’s also assured me that he is happy with my work on my own projects, so that helps.

    I can’t really ask “so hey when are we finally gonna fire Silas” but I’m going a little crazy over here. I also think it’ll get worse for a period of time if Silas does get fired because there’s no obvious choice to take over for him, so I feel like I’ll be covering these tasks even longer.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      some of Silas’s work I’m being instructed to leave to a poorer quality than I’d like because he needs to take ownership of his portions of the projects.

      Yeah, you really want to do the absolute minimum of cleaning up after Silas at this point, lest someone above your boss decide the current situation isn’t anything that really needs to be fixed.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Yeah, this is transferring the pain to someone else, who will then hopefully decide that Silas is in fact a problem to be solved. Rather than a problem this is self-solving because you and your manager take the extra work to solve it.

    2. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Do your work first. Flag every single gap left by Silas. Basically, give your boss as much documentation as you can that will help the PIP.
      Beyond that, all you can do is have patience.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        This is basically all you can do. The boss is aware and has already instructed you that poorer quality work is fine because this will magically help Silas take ownership (!?), so you can’t even say “It’s not sustainable for me to keep helping Silas” because letting the chips fall where they may doesn’t seem to bother your boss.

        Not that it’s fair to you, OP, but I think at least if Silas does get fired, it will probably be easier getting those tasks done now that you have full control rather than him getting in the way and messing things up. Still too much work for one person, but at least no one will be in there gumming up the works.

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          I doubt they expect him to take ownership. They just need him to mess up so they can document, but they can’t say that to another employee.

          1. Caramel & Cheddar*

            They do, I took that from the original comment: “I’m being instructed to leave to a poorer quality than I’d like because he needs to take ownership of his portions of the projects.”

            1. SleepyHollow*

              My gut feel is that it’s kind of in between the two. Like in part if I do the work well, then Silas doesn’t see the issue and consequences and therefore he doesn’t improve. But also if I do the work well then there is no visibility to those above us that there is a gap. And as other commenters pointed out I definitely don’t want to get stuck covering it long term while Silas stays because there’s no evidence he’s not working to standard

      3. Gamer Girl*

        This. Every time you don’t get something you need from Silas, cc your manager on the email sent to Silas to chase up the missing deliverable.

        Clearly note work that isn’t done to your usual standards because of Silas, but keep the facts absolutely above board and matter of fact. Pretend that it’s going to be read in court or the news. For example: “As I received sections C and D of the Llama health report from Silas 20 minutes before the final deadline, they have been integrated as-is into the report. I only had time to ensure they were formatted, but I have not proofed them. Please see attached emails from [dates] regarding the [24 hour turnaround deadline for proofing/missing second draft not submitted by 3 day deadline/missing email attachment email from the morning of…]”

        For emails chasing up work, always send an email after a call or face to face request, documenting that you’ve made it and with your manager in cc. For example: “Hi Silas, As per our call at 10am today, I’ll look for the second draft of section C tomorrow at 9am. Best.”

        Keep it factual, and in emails always include the deadline/usual department turnaround/the days in advance you need to complete your portion to make it crystal clear that Silas has all the facts about when the answers or deliverables are needed.

        It’s really hard to do this though. I hope it gets resolved quickly!

    3. ClearCommunication*

      All you can really do is make your boss aware of how this is affecting you. If Silas is fired and the hole does make it worse, communicate that as well. I would not communicate fears that it might make it worse, just factual information if those fears pan out.

      Good luck!

    4. M2*

      I wouldn’t do Silas work. If it is poor quality let it stand for the PIP. If for some reason you need to redo something, take a picture of his work and then email your manager and say something along the lines of this is Silas work on X. I needed to fix a,b,c. Please see below. Document everything and email to your boss so they can use it in the PIP.

    5. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      I’m starting to feel like sometimes my own work suffers because I need to focus on making sure Silas’s parts of the projects don’t fall through the gaps

      Let them fall through the gaps.

      When this creates enough of a problem that they finally fire him, talk to boss about prioritizing work. Doing the job of two people is not sustainable. And if they see you successfully completing the work of two people, that doesn’t incentivize them to bring on another employee very fast. Stick to what one person can reasonably do.

      1. SleepyHollow*

        Thankfully it’s not quite that dire. There’s probably about 15% overlap that I’m helping to cover because I happen to have a level of experience/expertise in a very closely related subject matter. There would be more of a time imposition for me if Silas wasn’t here though since right now I’m dealing with none of the administrative side of things, just the actual functional work.

    6. Ann O'Nemity*

      Have you talked to your manager about setting clear boundaries and your overall workload? It sounds like your manager known that Silas’s poor performance is affecting you, but have you talked about how it’s hurting your own work? It may be worth a conversation about priorities. If you need to cover for Silas, what is being removed from your plate to make room?

      Are you documenting the extra work you’re doing? As a CYA, it may be worth documenting the increased workload and effect on quality and standards. Similarly, document how you’re going above and beyond.

      1. SleepyHollow*

        To be clear my manager is still very happy with my work, it’s me who isn’t at the moment.

        Basically I’m an A+ student and I feel like I’m delivering A- work, but my boss would be happy with like a strong B

        1. Hazel*

          Old maxims that apply here:
          We can’t change other people, just our responses to them.
          You can’t care more than the people who are paid to care do.

          Can you change your response? Feel pity for Silas rather than angry? Feel appreciative of your boss’ support of you and efforts to deal with Silas? Acknowledge that you are doing A+ work and he is doing C, making the class average a C, but not your average? You don’t have to pull the class up with you.

          Also just to put an end date on it, I think it’s ok to ask Boss, ‘what’s the timeframe for resolving the Silas issues’. Resolve can mean improve or fire. Boss can tell you a timeline for your expected holding back without saying there’s a PIP. Sometimes the star student also has to be the evil genius!

        2. Paint N Drip*

          Well there it is – you’re still doing great work, just not your best. Unfortunately everything is obvious to your boss so you won’t be blamed, but it seems like you’re going to have to get comfortable with the discomfort of underperforming. As a recovering A+ student, I am sending you good vibes (and sending your boss ‘just fire Silas already’ vibes)

        3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

          Another thing that is frustrating as an IC but a reality once you’re in management: Silas’s underperformance and managing him out takes a MASSIVE amount of your boss’s time. More than you can imagine.

          It is extremely unfair and frustrating for you to be in a place where you’re doing what you see as A- work and don’t have the resources to do better but when their other employee is a dumpster fire who needs three times longer than anyone else to get to a C, your boss is going to be extremely happy with a solid B.

          I’ve been in both of these positions and I don’t envy you, Sleepy. But from what you say, it does sound like Silas is being managed out. When I’ve been managing out underperformers, the thing that has kept me going is knowing that I get to give all the extra time back to my higher performers once the bigger dumpster fire is taken care of. Patience is hard, but I hope you do get to see the rewards over the long term.

          And as a recovering perfectionist, I want to say that it’s okay sometimes when A- or B is part of the mix. We’re all human and expecting 10/10 performance 100% of the time is not realistic.

    7. learnedthehardway*

      Keep your manager informed when Silas drops the ball?

      The tricky bit is that your work depends on inputs that Silas produces, and you can’t do your work to the right level without good inputs. But you would have to do his job and yours to get the work to the right level. Can you push back to tell him you need work to the right standard (and cc his manager)? Or can you produce your work but flag that the inputs were inadequate, and that this has affected the results you are producing?

    8. Random Academic Cog*

      Every single thing you catch/prevent/fix is further derailing your boss’ ability to hold Silas to the terms of the PIP and get rid of him. Every. Single. Thing.

      Your boss must be able to adequately document where Silas is failing AND how that’s impacting the work/team/company (which is “not much” if it’s still polished and complete by the time it goes out the door because someone else is picking up the slack). I’ve seen this play out so many times and the only thing most people take away from these experiences is that we can’t get anyone fired for less than embezzlement or physical violence. It’s not true – we can get rid of useless people, it’s just a lot of work.

      Quit trying to second-guess your boss about what you’ve been told to do (i.e. quit doing any of Silas’ work). You can’t be more invested in it than your boss is.

    9. SansaStark*

      As a manager who was recently in your manager’s shoes, let as much fail as you can. I had to walk a very fine line of telling my good employee to let my Silas fail so that I’d have more ammunition for the PIP. Assuming that you’re right and Silas is on a PIP, letting stuff fail is going to be the final nail in the coffin. It’s harder for the manager to justify if things are still getting done.

      1. Highlighter Cat*

        Also be patient. I have a large team and people who are impatient with the process sometimes will make it worse by basically publicly pointing out mistakes and embarrassing the person. Then they feel bullied and it’s hard to sort out what is really going on. It can really slow the process.

    10. Katie*

      I know it’s harder to leave bad work bad but sometimes things have to be officially bad in order for them to be fixed.

    11. Hyaline*

      I’d take your boss at his word that you can leave Silas’ work at lower quality than you’d like. I’d bet that this is part of the evidence/examples he needs to continue the process. In addition to that, separate out the “actual things that impact my workflow or my workload” from the “things I am annoyed about but don’t actually affect me.” For the former, continue to talk to your boss about how to mitigate those, and if they truly are untenable share that. “I cannot manage both the llama accounts and proofing Silas’ work this week–which should I prioritize?” “If I let Silas take all week on the hamster wheel design, I will not have time to complete the installation–how would you like to proceed?” Make those bottlenecks and overloads the boss’s problem. But for the “ugh, when are they finally gonna fire this guy” annoyance on principle, resign yourself to the fact that it’s out of your hands and it will happen when it happens.

  10. Green Goose*

    Is it appropriate for me to stop a conversation because I need a moment to process? If so I need some helpful wording.

    I sometimes find myself in situations where a superior unexpectedly is frustrated/angry about something involving me and I just shut down in these moments. My mind goes blank and I can’t think straight. The other day my boss changed the agenda for a meeting to go deep into the weeds on something I was not prepared for and it involves our super messy data (a whole other problem).
    Boss wanted to “get to the bottom of it” right then and there but because I wasn’t prepared, and she was visibly frustrated my brain just shuts down. I really just wanted to say I needed a moment to understand what she was asking, and time to review the data and then regroup but because my stress response it “shut down” when someone appears mad at me I couldn’t think to do that in the moment.

    Is it appropriate to stop a meeting like this and say I need more time and we can regroup later? What’s some professional language I can use in the moment?

    I’ve had meetings like this where I’ve either stayed totally silent or taken the blame for something that was not my fault just to end the meeting and then as soon as I have some breathing room and can think straight I’m like wait a minute that wasn’t my fault at all but the meeting is over.

    1. A large cage of birds*

      I think it’s ok to stop a meeting like this, though obviously you have to read carefully with your boss. I’d just use something like, “I see this is important and I’m happy to discuss it. I need a bit of time to refresh myself on all the details (it’s a complex project/a large dataset/ there are a lot of moving parts). Can I have some time to look into it so I can make sure I have the latest info? (And then maybe suggest a time.)

      I would have maybe shut down in the moment as well! But I think it’s reasonable to ask for some time to make sure you’re up to speed

    2. Name (Required)*

      I think it depends a lot on your boss and your company culture. I would try something like “I’d like some time to review the data before we discuss this. Would it be okay for us to meet in 30 minutes?”

      1. Lemons*

        ^ Yes, this, you can very easily frame it as a suggestion designed not to waste her time, like “OK yeah, let’s figure this out, let me dig up and parse all the info and get back to in in 30 so you’re not waiting around.” I think the classic “Let me find that info for you” would be a useful general tool for you as well to buy a little time.

    3. FollowUp*

      It depends. Is the point of the meeting to give you this feedback or is it happening in the course of other conversation? If the former, you may be able to ask for some time to process. It’ll depend on your boss and the company norms. If the latter, you probably need to be able to adjust and respond at the time or not participate in the conversation.

      What you should be able to do regardless is regroup and raise the issue again with your dispassionately reasoned responses later. Something like “I was so startled when you brought X up the other day. I’ve had some time to process what you said now, and I believe there are other aspects of the situation we need to address to ensure this doesn’t happen again. I realize the ultimate outcome is my responsibility (if it is), but Y and Z were the primary drivers of the failure. I have some ideas on how to address them – what do you think about K and J?

      Good luck!

    4. Rex Libris*

      I usually go with something like “I’d need to look at the data and do some research to make sure I’m giving you an accurate answer. How soon do you need an answer?”

    5. learnedthehardway*

      Can you say “I came to the meeting prepared to discuss X, but we’re discussing Y, and I need to review my information first?”

      I totally understand the frustration – I get people asking me for updates on a moment’s notice, and I have ZERO memory. I take very detailed, complete notes, and then I summarize the important high lights – very simply so that I can refer to them as needed, when people ask questions out of the blue.

      1. Kay*

        I think this sounds a bit… well, like it needs more finesse to come off as collaborative. It sounds as if the irritation is showing through and I would especially worry about how that would be taken by a frustrated boss.

    6. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Have you thought about practicing with a therapist or a friend what to do in this kind of situation? Like, maybe if you had something to fall back on, you wouldn’t shut down so hard? I ask because some people are just not going to react well to a request to essentially reschedule a meeting already in progress. Alternatively, maybe you could explain to your boss the stress reaction you know you have have, and get your boss to tell you ahead of time what they want to get to the bottom of so that you can be prepared?

      1. Green Goose*

        My boss has a pretty low EQ so I’m not sure how they would react if I said they stressed me out. I would love to be able to say it to them, but I worry about it backfiring and getting more anger/frustration.

      2. Melissa*

        I advise not to disclose the stress reaction to boss. It will be used as a weapon.

        I’m in that situation now, with a boss who already uses a conversation like it is an interrogation, with a helping of gaslighting…

        Everything I say gets picked apart and deemed not an issue, so why am I struggling with it? Every time I choose between two high priority tasks to work on, I’ve picked the wrong one. And that happens multiple times a day, at my desk where there is no escape.

        It’s to the point where I just agree with everything they say during conversations, which can be 10% work related and 90% personal, if they’ve had a bad day.

        These days, just the idea of an upcoming deadline can throw me into panic mode.

    7. Meep*

      I actually work with a lot of people like you (Engineers) who need time to process things. My strategy has always been to ask them about something 1-2 weeks in advance before I need an actual answer/decision to let them process. They have a lot on their plate so they need the extra subconscious time instead of task switching in the moment.

      Maybe have a conversation with your boss when things have cooled and explain that you need time to process information to give them the best and most accurate answers?

      Something like “I know you need answers right now, but I find myself much better prepared to give you what you need when you give me [x amount of time] to prepare. Moving forward can you give me more of a heads up to better suit our agenda?”

      1. Spacewoman Spiff*

        I like this suggestion, especially if this is something that happens often. My brain freezes in what sounds like a similar way when something is thrown at me that I’m not prepped to discuss. In 1:1s, I’ve talked with managers about this and let them know that I really do my thinking through writing, and having even a little advance notice and time to look through new materials will help me better engage in a conversation. For me, part of my challenge was to stop thinking of this brain freeze as a weakness that I needed to try hiding from managers, and to start looking at more neutrally as just the way I think and process information.

      2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        I agree with Spacewoman and Meep. I have been having some communication mismatch with one of my reports where I feel I’ve explained something and they’re not getting it. I was reminded earlier this week that they are a person who needs more time to process.

        For a situation where your boss doesn’t have a very high EQ, I suggest mentioning this at a complete remove from one of the stressful moments. Pop into her office one day and just say something to indicate that you think you might have better overall communication if the boss understands sometimes you need an extra minute to process, and that you’ll try to be better at asking for that minute when you need it. That way she’s primed to hear it in the moment and won’t be thrown off later if you ask for a minute to play catch up.

    8. Qwerty*

      There is a difference between needing a moment and completely shutting down. The rest of your post sounds like the latter, so I recommend working with a therapist.

      If you just need a moment, then its fine to say “Let me take a moment to think about that” or “Can we pause for a couple minutes to refresh our memories of before diving in?”.

      It sounds like you have two problems – reacting to someone being displeased and pivoting topics. My recommendation would be to start with the first, because it will help with the second.

    9. Oof and Ouch*

      Depends on your relationship with your boss and their personality.

      I’ve had bosses that I had to legitimately say, “Look Bob, I understand you want an answer on this, but you originally wanted this meeting to be about the Q4 llama grooming plan and now you’re asking me how Mrs. Furgeson’s alpaca was accidentally dyed dark pink instead of light pink last week, and this is the first I’m hearing of the issue, so you’re gonna need to give me like two hours to talk to some people.”

      Other bosses I’ve had to be a little more tiptoeish around, “I completely understand that this issue of the magenta alpaca needs to be prioritized above the original purpose of this meeting. Is this something you’d like me to investigate on my own and get back to you on by the end of the day, or is this something you’d prefer we deep dive into together now? If you want to work through it, then can we reconvene in 15 minutes so I can pull the relevant information I already have together?”

    10. RagingADHD*

      I think the phrases you are looking for are “bear with me,” a very deferential way of asking for time, and “how about…”, a soft way of suggesting a different path / approach.

      As in:
      Okay, bear with me here for a second, please. I don’t have that information at hand at the moment. (Or: I don’t have that off the top of my head). How about I write down all your questions now, and then I can look into everything and get the answers back to you as a priority item?

      1. Green Goose*

        I like this. I can usually answer questions in the moment, and generally feel like a competent employee but there are two areas that I get stressed about and they both have very poorly managed data from before my time. But I can’t say “our data is bad so your request is much more complicated than you realize”.
        And I just get flustered when someone is visibly frustrated with me.

    11. RedinSC*

      I think it’s totally OK to stop and say, I hear your concerns, let me look into this.

      One of the problems here at my work though is that the person in your position doesn’t come prepared to the meetings to discuss the data, even with ample notice. Which then makes things even worse and people lose faith that the person knows what they’re doing. So when you’ve stopped a meeting and it’s rescheduled, make sure to come very, very prepared so that the people working with you don’t lose that faith. It’s super important to be able to communicate that you need time to review and dive deep, but once you’ve had that time, make sure that your communications about the questions are clear and address the concerns.

    12. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      “Can I just pause you there” can be useful as a sort of multi-purpose polite(ish) initial interruption.

    13. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “This is actually really complicated and I can’t do a deep dive off the cuff. I need to have resource/document/report/code editor/etc and it takes time to get all the context between those things lined up.” Then you can ask for 30 minutes to get prepped, or to push off to the next day, or whatever.

    14. Hyaline*

      While I think it’s not only ok, it’s usually far more helpful to take time to let everyone gather their thoughts (and possibly files, documents, and other pertinent info), I’m leery of encouraging you to do so if your boss is demanding to “get to the bottom of this” in a punitive or finger pointing sort of way. If his sole outlook seems to be figuring out “Who made this mistake and how did it get made” and has no interest in looking at avoiding that issue in the future or exploring better ways of approaching the process that contributed to the error or whatever…well, he’s kinda a crappy boss and he’s just looking to blame, and no amount of regrouping is going to help that. But if this is intended to be more constructive, I think you can say something. “Yes, I agree that we need to hash this out. I would be better prepared to discuss if if we met later today after I could go over the timeline/documents/files/whatever–would that be possible?” “Addressing this is a priority for me, too, but I would feel better about my contributions if we could meet later so that I have some time to look into the issue further.” If it’s taking time in a meeting that wasn’t intended for that purpose, especially with people who aren’t really involved, all the more reason–“This is definitely a top-priority issue for me, too, but I am concerned that we can’t give it the attention it needs in a sidebar to this meeting–maybe those of us involved should gather our data and meet [suggest a sensible timeframe].”

    15. Too many cats*

      I think it’s ok to resort to taking notes and say something like “I’m going to need to think this theough. Can we schedule a second meeting [insert time frame]”
      If challenged individually by your manager advise you need time to think through and digest things and if that’s not possible you’ll need information in advance!

    16. Happy Friday*

      Depending on your boss, at some other quiet time could you address this? Like “sometimes when we talk, especially if it’s not what we originally planned, I need some time/it would be helpful to take a short break so I can get more info/switch my thought process/ etc.” and then ask how she would want you to proceed if that happened.

    17. JSPA*

      “there’s no one-line answer to that question. For a grounded answer that I can stand behind confidently, I’ll need X hours with the data, and [state conditions here].”

      I had a boss continually push me for a prediction of what was happening with data we were supposed to handle “blind”–and then for new and different analysis of the same data, “re-blinded” (not trivial before it was all computerized).

      “Do you really want me to break the code” or “given sample size, if we do two more tests, none of the answers are likely to be statistically significant after we correct for doing multiple tests” was reasonable and necessary push-back, each time curiosity got the better of them.

      Sometimes, “I have at least modest hopes, given that different samples seem to have different distributions, but of course I can’t tell you more before we finish data collection and break the sample codes” is all you can say.

  11. Always the Bridesmaid*

    I’m just curious what others response is to this – a recruiter reached out to me with an opportunity that would come with a significant pay raise, but the position is fully onsite with a commute that would be an hour or more in rush hour traffic. I said I would pass if they weren’t willing to offer a hybrid schedule, but I’m curious what others threshold for commute-to-pay ratio is.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Back when I was younger (20s & early 30s) I did that kind of commute all the time – DC beltway, I-66, etc. – and just wrote it off as the cost of doing business.

      I’m more picky now. It would have to be some significant money (like 40% bump, maybe?) to get me to do that.

      1. Joielle*

        Same here. My first job out of law school was 100% in person, at least an hour commute each way – but the market was tight and I had no experience and I was happy to get the offer I did. Having more options now, I wouldn’t do that long of a commute unless there was a really significant increase. I think 40% sounds about right.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      While I’m sure there is a number at which I would switch to fully in person, it’s got to really high as I can’t think of it. During my last job search, I considered hybrid, but only if it was 3+ days from home, relatively close (30min-ish commute), and paid a lot more than my remote options. I ended up sticking to a fully remote role.

    3. I am a quesadilla*

      This is going to be different for everyone! I live in a major city and have no problem with an hour commute. For me the sticking point would be the in-person schedule — 2 days, almost certainly yes. 3 days probably. 4-5 ehhhh.

      Questions to consider:
      – are the hours fixed? or can you leave early / arrive late to avoid traffic?
      – do they have to be set days or can I change them based on my schedule (ie are they always Tues/Thur or can I do Mon/Wed if that’s better for me on a given week)? What happens if I’m supposed to be Tue/Wed/Thur but take a vacation or sick day on Wed, am I expected to make up that in-office day on Friday?
      – what happens if you’re sick? what happens if you have plans and want to work remote (I sometimes dogsit and work from my friend’s house)?
      – are there snacks / drinks provided in the office? how often is lunch comped? (honestly, having to provide my own coffee would be a KILLER for me and it’s funny the little things that can make a huge quality of life difference!)
      – how often do other people actually work remote? if 99% of the office is in-person 5 days a week, trying to negotiate to be that 1 person who works remote 2 days a week is likely going to impact ability to advance and would hurt work relationships.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        All of this. I can handle an hour on transit easily — I just read whether I’m standing or sitting — but fully onsite is kind of a deal breaker, especially if it’s work that can be done remotely. These are all really good questions.

    5. Whale I Never*

      Not quite the same, but a few months ago I moved to an apartment with a 65% rent increase because of how much easier it made me commute. In-person both ways, but I went from “I MUST take two buses, and sometimes it will take 30 minutes and sometimes it will take two hours with delays” to “I can take a single bus to be there in less than 10 minutes, or walk for 25 minutes.” There were certainly other factors (fewer roommates, more convenient to other stuff), but cutting commute stress had such an improvement in my overall life that I haven’t regretted it for one minute, and the salary increase that would make me give it up would have to be… VERY steep.

    6. StressedButOkay*

      It would have to be so much. Like, SO MUCH. I’ve gotten so spoiled by WFH full time that unless the money was just – stupid, it honestly wouldn’t be enough to get me to give it up. Not when I can log off at 4:30 and just be done (on the days that I can log off on time hah) and get on with my personal life.

      1. OrdinaryJoe*

        This is me … the money would have to be so stupid high to get away from full time WFH that I would be privately telling myself that I’m doing it only for 2 yrs or so and could then retire. I’m about 10 yrs from retirement now and plan on NEVER working full time in an office again.

      2. allathian*

        Yes, same here. My current commute is 45 minutes each way, I can live with that as long as I can WFH more than at the office. I wouldn’t consider a fully in office job unless they paid at least triple my current salary for essentially the same job. That’s not a realistic prospect.

    7. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      I hate commuting with the fire of 10,000 suns. There is no raise that would get me to accept an hour commute. Spouse and I would also have to buy another car (public transit not reasonably near me). I’d maybe accept a 30 min commute with a huge raise and a bonus and even then… probably not.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yeah in my city the stress of battling rush hour traffic for an hour-plus a day would be literally years of my life – I don’t think there is any compensation that would work unless it was enough that I could move closer. That said I did a 45 minute train commute for several years and that was fine.

    8. Ann O'Nemity*

      I won’t do an hour commute anymore. That’s 10 hours a week. I don’t have 10 extra hours a week to spend in the car.

    9. Caramel & Cheddar*

      My commute is currently 45min each way and I’m hybrid, so increasing that and making me come in five days a week would probably kill me if my salary didn’t at least double.

      1. Tradd*

        I drive 45-60 minutes each way 5 days a week and have always done that. I worked remote for 8 months during the plague. Otherwise, in the office. Always. It’s normal for me and every place I’ve ever worked. I’ve been doing commutes like this since the early 90s.

    10. Busy Middle Manager*

      Hour is the upper limit of acceptable. But what about other factors of the drive? Are there alternative routes if there are accidents? Does it snow alot? Do there tend to be bad bottlenecks in the summer/Friday that make the commute even worse? What is parking like on the other end? Is the drive easy? Or is it like the hour and fifteen one I did in NJ for a while that was all difficult roads, bumps, tolls, potholes, navigating construction and traffic spilling over from side roads into some highways, or can you mentally zone out and drive on smooth roads that won’t kill your car?

    11. Colette*

      They’d have to pay me enough that I could retire in 6 months or less. So basically not going to happen.

      But I think it depends on a few things:
      – would the pay increase pay for things you need or things you want?
      – what would that long commute cost you (in both time and money)?

      1. A Significant Tree*

        Same – I’m privileged to be paid enough that even a big raise is not enough incentive to give up my current situation. I was hybrid for years before Covid and have now adjusted to full time teleworking.

        Also, consider the added stress of commuting, especially if it involves stop and go traffic. Some people can tolerate it but I am not one of them so it would be a dealbreaker for me. My personal limit is 3-4 times a month.

    12. ThatGirl*

      At this point, being currently employed, there is no job or raise out there that would make me want to drive an hour or more. The calculus might change if I was unemployed. But as it stands my office is a 4 minute drive and I have a lot of flexibility and a hybrid schedule. Even though I have my frustrations with my company, it would take a lot for me to give that up.

      (I have had long commutes for previous jobs and I did NOT enjoy it, so I’d have to be pretty desperate to regularly commute a long way.)

    13. A large cage of birds*

      An hour or more would be a no-go for me. Once a week maybe, but certainly not daily.

      That said, it depends on where you are money wise. There was a time in my life where I probably would have preferred the raise, but I’m more comfortable now and it wouldn’t be worth it. (Plus I’ve been at home for over 4 years, so that would be a huge change for me.)

    14. Always the Bridesmaid*

      I appreciate everyone’s responses! FWIW, besides the commute (which would be on a congested urban highway where you are quite literally fighting for your life even of the good days), I wasn’t exactly thrilled about the opportunity. I have a job and the pay isn’t amazing, but I’m not struggling either. And while things could definitely improve, I have an easy 20 min commute and a fair amount of flexibility.

      I entered the workforce a few years after The Big One of 2008 and at the height of hustle culture, so there is always a part of me that feels lazy/entitled/generally bad when I make a decision to protect my personal life at the expense of feeding the capitalist machine.

      1. ReallyBadPerson*

        That would be a pass for me. All of my early career jobs were in the Boston area, where hour plus commutes in awful traffic were normal. I did find value in transitioning from work life to home life and vice versa.

        But today as my much older self? Nope. The emotional toll of grueling traffic just isn’t worth it. Plus, you could actually die.

      2. Paint N Drip*

        The timing of that tells me that you’re senior enough to NOT take a job that doesn’t suit you. You’ve put the work in, so if this job wants you with their subpar offer, it’s okay to say no and keep trying – another job with a better location/schedule/flexibility/whatever would want you too!!

    15. learnedthehardway*

      My father’s advice always registers when something like commuting comes into play: “Your time is worth something, too!”

      I think for me, it would have to go well beyond money to get me to work onsite (at all, let alone full time). It would have to be a great role, great culture, with future career growth potential. I would have to WANT to commute because the position was so compelling.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        100% agree. I currently WFH and love it, and until recently, I was convinced that no amount of money could convince me to go back to working in-person full-time.

        Then I was offered an in-person position with interesting, challenging work that was perfectly within my niche area of expertise, and I accepted it without hesitation. Money would not have been enough for me to sacrifice the comforts of WFH… only really fun science could convince me to do that!

    16. Strive to Excel*

      It would depend where! I was looking into a job earlier this year where my commute would be 45-50 minutes each way, but it would be along quieter back roads. The job would in all other ways have been fantastic and the commute would be the only downside.

      On the flipside, I would have to be looking at a near doubling of salary and hybrid work to commute to our local big city. Driving in there regularly reduces me to frustrated tears.

    17. Laura*

      I have a fully onsite job with an hour+ commute (into Boston) and the commute is so brutal. Being onsite is the norm in my role and one of the reasons I stay in my job is that there is really convenient company shuttle that I can take, so even though I have that long commute I can call into meetings or check emails and just not have to stress about driving. If not for the shuttle I would have been job searching long ago even though I’m otherwise happy here.

    18. Meep*

      I’m weird and it really depends on the drive? I hated commuting to my old office before I moved 7 miles further from it, because I no longer had to go through the middle of town. I could go around on the scenic view. Interestingly enough, it was still 35 minutes either direction. The difference was stop-and-go rush hour vs not.

      Since the office moved technically closer to me mileage-wise, I find myself going in less because I am back into going through the heart of the city to get there. The drive is still 35 minutes too.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        I don’t think you’re weird–I would also rather a scenic 35 min drive around town than a 35 min stop-and-go drive through the town center. I also can tolerate a longer commute that’s on transit than I can a driving commute (my max for transit is 1-hour, my max for driving is 40-min). I know several other people who prefer well-flowing traffic commutes to stop-and-go traffic commutes when the commuting time is the same, or even if the well-flowing commute is longer time-wise.

      2. Ama*

        One of the longest commutes time wise I ever had was a summer job during grad school in Westchester County, NY where I drove across the Tappan Zee Bridge (as it was then called) every day, but it was a reverse commute (away from NYC in the mornings) so it wasn’t super congested and the drive was absolutely gorgeous. I would have happily done that commute for years if it hadn’t been just a limited time job (job was grant funded for one summer). But even 30 minutes a day through high congestion rush hour traffic would be far too much for me.

        1. Nightengale*

          wait what do you mean it’s no longer the Tappan Zee bridge?

          My childhood involved periodic trips up and down the eastern seaboard to visit relatives and my parents were desperate to amuse me in the car before I could read and when it was too dark to read. So we celebrated state boarders and bridges. The Tappan Zee was a classic. I used to pretend bridges went from their name to name, like it went from Tappan to Zee, another bridge went from George to Washington, one went from Benjamin to Franklin. . . there was also the “noisy bridge” whose name I don’t remember.

    19. je veux m'en passer*

      Depends on what the hour is like. I did that drive once (45-50 minutes), but it was 80% free-flowing expressway (75-80mph), and the rest was small back-roads so it was no real issue. If it was an hour in Chicago traffic, there isn’t enough money in all of America.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        My ex and I met at work and after we moved in together, when I was still working there, we used to drive in together . It took an hour, and he drove, but we had to be there at 6:30-7:00 am so we got up around 4:30 am.

        I would get in the car and promptly go right back to sleep. It was fine except for the morning he didn’t wake me up in time and I missed a bear with cubs walking across the road. :(

    20. DrSalty*

      Unless I needed more money, I wouldn’t accept it. At this point in my life, my time is more valuable.

    21. Blue Pen*

      I used to commute two hours each way to work. There is truly no amount of money that would ever get me to do that again. I’ve never felt so exhausted and isolated in my life. Now, I think 45 minutes (and that’s *really* pushing it) is the longest commute time I would agree to.

    22. No Tribble At All*

      One million dollars E_E an hour or more in rush hour traffic is brutal. It’s going to be “or more”; you have to get up early; you can’t do anything after work because you’re stuck in traffic, etc. It’ll significantly affect your home life balance because you’re losing two hours a day plus you’ll be extra tired. I would not.

      I’m mostly remote, can you tell? :)

      1. Mom of Two Littles*

        This is so true, and lol for Dr Evil. I am SO TIRED after I go in, my commute is 2.5 hours round trip (if everything goes perfect) and it is so draining. I know all these other parents that clean the house after their kids go to bed and I’m immobile on the couch by 8pm.

    23. Lazycommuter*

      I think it depends on where you are in your career. When I was in the early stages of my career, my threshold for a bad commute was much higher. Now (almost 20 years out of school), I am significantly pickier. The money would have to be incredibly good to get me to go into the office 5 days a week and have a bad commute.

    24. Mom of Two Littles*

      Ohh I think about this often, here is my take. I live in a VHCOLA area that also has terrible commuter traffic, I also have family obligations that require me to be able to do drop-offs and pick-ups about 50% of the time.
      I currently work somewhere that just moved from two days on-site to three days on-site and its been a rough transition. I feel pretty tired and my house is a mess because I used to use a certain day for cleaning/laundry but I have been feeling more tired with the added commute day.
      For me to be willing to go to a 4-5 day on-site, the salary would need to be significant, in my own version of “I’ve made it” or “I never thought I’d have a salary this high” so whatever that is for you. Then I’d also need to know how flexible they were for when I arrived at the office. Do you have to be there at 8-9am, requiring you to be in the worst of the morning traffic? Could you work at home from 8:30-10, and then drive in, and then leave at 3/3:30 and then log back on once you are home?
      Also, push for a day or two at home. Since the 5 day on-site sounds like a deal breaker to you, use that and be really transparent about it. Be honest and tell them that you either need flex on-site time, or at least x amount of days hybrid or it won’t be a good match. I think it can be really helpful for you since you know what wouldn’t be worth it. At my current job, since they were requiring more on-site days than I wanted I said I would only accept the highest salary range.

      OR, if they are firm on five days and start/stop times, you could then name a very high salary (that would make it work for you) and say “Since the commute and start times are firm on your end, I wouldn’t be able to accept the position for less than ($x)”.

    25. Hyaline*

      At this stage in my life there is no amount of money you could pay me to give up two hours a day spent commuting. Nope.

    26. RagingADHD*

      I couldn’t do that kind of commute every day, but what would the commute be if you did off-hours, and is that an option? If you could go in 7-4 or 9:30 to 6:30 and cut the commute to 20-30 minutes, would the pay be worth it then?

      Some rush hours are so long that there really isn’t a reasonable way to flex it, but sometimes it can work.

    27. Kaden Lee*

      I did go from fully remote but underpaid to five days in office (now four, woohoo!) for a roughly 27% pay increase. My commute is anywhere from 35 minutes (good day during the low traffic season) to a max 65 minutes, average around 45-50 minutes each way during the high traffic season. In retrospect, so not worth it & I should have angled for at least 1 day WFH earlier than I did.

    28. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      It’s funny how perceptions have changed! At one job, I had a coworker who started work at 6 AM because he *only* had an hour commute if he left home at 5 AM. If he left even a half hour later, it was a two hour commute in LA traffic. I know so many people who wouldn’t even consider a job with that kind of commute today.

    29. DJ*

      Great topic. In 2011 I took a job that was 1 bus and 2 train plus a 10-15 min walk over 90 mins because I really wanted the job. But I arrived early and left early to avoid crowded buses (trains were ok) and jamming up the road in extreme traffic. As we had flexible hours and time in lieu I’d take full days or 1/4 days.
      I did have a manager that pushed me to work hours that would have lengthened my commute but I pushed back on that. And I did work back when needed.
      I don’t think I could have done it with set start and finish times and even with flexible hours my sick leave rate was high.
      Once we moved to WFH with COVID my sick leave tumbled and well being improved. I was way more chilled if friends cancelled as I hadn’t rushed home for a catch-up.
      Now workplace is pushing more days in the office (I’ll have a different commute, longer but one train with office next to station). Not ideal but as I’m a couple years from scaling back and a few from retirement it’s something I’ll need to deal with. Probably will be working 1-2 evenings pw to reduce long days away from home combined with avoiding walking home from the station late at night.
      Unless I get a job with the same pay closer to home changing jobs means needing to work longer (hoping no health crisis). Other options with me remaining in the same job will be paying more to live in an area I don’t like or dropping hours. So going with any other option will mean a financial hit!
      Anyhow my sick leave rate will sky rocket!

    30. Jane*

      It also depends on the type of commute. It’s easier to do an hour sitting on 1 comfy train with a 5 min max walk either end to that hour on 3 different forms of packed transport with lengthy walks at either end and perhaps between connections!

  12. Ann Perkins*

    Does anyone have language you really like for a “my work hours may not be your work hours” email tagline? I’m considering adding this type of language to my signature; too many people, including members of my team, seem to feel pressure to jump to respond at all hours, and I want a reminder that they may not always need to do so.

    I’m also curious if there is anyone who has thought this through and decided NOT to add this sort of language, and why you made that decision.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      To be honest, I don’t read email signatures. So I’d completely miss that.

      I add text into the body situationally.

    2. I am a quesadilla*

      Answering your question with a different question: why not just use the schedule send feature to send the email during work hours?

      1. Cloud Wrangler*

        If scheduling features consistently worked it would be great. They don’t.

        Also, people need to realize that we don’t work in the same time zone or if we do we don’t have the same hours. I wouldn’t expect someone that I work with in Japan to bother with scheduling an email. Just send it and I’ll read it when I’m at work.

    4. Data Data Data*

      I work with people across several time zones, all with somewhat flexible schedules . Here’s the tagline I use:

      My working time may not be your working time. Please do not feel obliged to reply to this email outside of your routine working hours.

    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I wouldn’t add it to a signature because a lot of people don’t read signatures, but also a lot of systems can be set up to only include a signature on the first email in a chain and not subsequent replies.

      I think if you want your team to not feel pressure to respond, I’d a) send an actual email to them outlining your expectations, or lackthereof, rather than relying on them to read it in a signature, and b) just use the schedule send feature if you’re not working with people across multiple time zones where 9am your time might still be after hours their time.

    6. Ann O'Nemity*

      My schedule may differ from yours. Please respond during your usual working hours.

      My colleague uses this, as she has a flexible schedule. I don’t use one of these taglines myself, as I usually don’t send emails outside of conventional work hours. When I do I use “schedule send” so the email goes out during the next work day.

    7. pally*

      yeah- a company I work with uses: We work flexibly at [Company name]. I am sending this message now because it works for me, but I do not expect that you will read, respond to or act on it outside of your regular working hours.

    8. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      Personally, I feel like others can manage their own inboxes and don’t need my guidance on how and when to send an email, so I wouldn’t include that type of message

      1. carrot cake*

        Yep, same. If people are responding outside their working hours, that’s something for them to manage. If it’s my direct reports doing so, that’s a conversation we’d have.

    9. A large cage of birds*

      I’ve seen signatures like this, and I think it’s fine. Honestly I never feel pressure to answer those kind of off hours emails, whether they have that in the signature or not. I worked in higher ed for a while and academics would email at all hours, holidays, etc. But if you’re seeing people feel an obligation to answer, then the reminder would probably be good.

    10. DontDoIt*

      I would look askance at someone pointing this out to me – like I need their permission to manage my email in a way that works best for me. Email is an asynchronous communication – there should never be a. expectation of immediate response attached because you have no control over when someone actually sees the mail.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        I kind of feel the same way, to be honest. I would never expect to need to jump up and deal with emails at all hours (my manager is 3 time zones behind me, so I get a lot of email and slack messages after hours), but if someone started adding that verbiage, I’d feel like if they ever left it out they DID want an immediate response.

    11. ecnaseener*

      I’m going to agree with several people above and say that a signature isn’t particularly effective. For people on your team (especially if you’re their manager), say it to them directly – and be clear about it. “My work hours may not be your work hours” isn’t clear (what are your work hours then? if I get an emails from you at all kinds of times, does that mean your work hours are 24/7?). “I work odd hours, different every day, but I try to be available during [times]” is better.

      Keep in mind also that what you’re interpreting as “feeling pressure to respond” could just be a sign that, like you, they prefer to work odd hours.

    12. MsM*

      Putting it in your signature is a bit much, I think. I’d just reinforce in conversations with them that you don’t expect them to respond outside of business hours, and maybe make an effort to schedule sending things so they don’t show up until the next morning.

    13. Qwerty*

      I find this patronizing and ineffective. Someone is only reading that email if they already felt like they had to check emails outside of their work hours. It feels performative and more of a CYA move. If you are in management, you have much better tools at your disposal for promoting work/life balance.

      What I find more effective is focusing on culture. Tell people how you will get indicate if something is urgent (ex: I will call your cell phone if you are needed outside work hours so you never have to check work chat / email after hours) Check in with individuals you manage who are responding immediately to find out what works for them. Maybe they feel pressured, maybe they are already online because of a different project, maybe they are just bored, maybe they think it’ll impress their boss.

      My teams I’ve managed all learn pretty quickly that I’m sending the email in the evening because I tend to get caught up on email and tasks in the evening. Some of them start work before me, so its a good way to pass info between the timezones.

    14. Friday Person*

      I find the disclaimer a little unnecessary in my own work situation (although I wouldn’t be actually offended by it), but I do tend to work language like “not urgent,” “whenever you have a chance,” “for tomorrow” etc. in email subjects/text as relevant.

    15. HonorBox*

      We’re talking about this right now at work, both because of people’s own work processes and because of the changes to the overtime rules. If you can, address this in a meeting with everyone. Just let them know that if you happen to be working, it might be outside of their hours, and you absolutely do not expect them to be monitoring their email at all hours. You’re sending it because you’re working, and the next time they’re working they’ll have it. You could also use the schedule email function, but if people are working a variety of core hours, that might be harder to do. So I’d just be explicit with your team that if you’re emailing during their off hours, you don’t expect an immediate response. Then tell them if you do need something outside of their normal hours, you’d call them instead.

    16. suggestion*

      A coworker uses this:

      NOTE: My work hours may not align with yours; do not feel obligated to respond outside of your normal workday.

    17. DJ*

      I can see why ppl do this as some feel pressured to respond or that they should have kept up with their emails outside of their working hours. A personal choice depending on their working hours and culture of the organisation!

    18. Highlighter Cat*

      I work with folks who work pretty traditional schedules, we work in the office standard office hours. I avoid emailing outside of business hours and just schedule emails or save them until the morning. Many of us monitor emails for urgent issues but other emails can capture attention when we should be not thinking about work. I figure I’ll make it easy for everyone else.

    19. Phlox*

      A colleague has it – I think it’s a helpful backstop for those in powerful positions where the risk of an email being perceived as an immediate ask is higher and where adding to the tagline communicates my department’s culture.

    20. Nightengale*

      I thought about it when I started seeing it from others but decided against it

      I get a little irritated seeing it, like I can’t manage my own schedule and respond when works for me? Which might be right away at 10 PM. Or may not be for 2-3 days regardless of when I get the e-mail. A lot of e-mails I get don’t require a response immediately the next work day anyway so arriving at 9 PM or the next 9 AM doesn’t change much.

      The people I e-mail mostly don’t have outside-hours e-mail access or know that e-mails from me don’t need urgent action as I have other ways to reach them urgently. And frankly if the higher ups recognize that I always e-mail them at times like 11 PM or Sunday afternoons, maybe they will begin to believe that I am doing the work of 2 people. (And I’m in a field where if I let balls drop, people won’t die but their health can be literally impacted.)

  13. my cat is prettier than me*

    My grand-boss didn’t approve our holiday party proposal until Wednesday, and now the place is booked. We’re trying to come up with alternatives, but I’m ticked because I sent the proposal to him on 10/10. I thought we were waiting on the board, but they were waiting on him.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Maybe have your holiday party in January? A lot of people prefer not to squeeze a work party into an already busy November/December.

      2. StressedButOkay*

        My spouse’s work does that and it’s fantastic! We have something fun in January where we can dress up/stay in a hotel and we’re not stressed about trying to juggle that, my work stuff, parties being held by family/friends, other events…

      3. my cat is prettier than me*

        Unfortunately, it’s out of my hands.

        Thankfully, the work party is during the day. We also aren’t allowed to bring anyone.

        1. HonorBox*

          While generally I’m not the person who will throw my hands up and say, “Fine you do it” I think if scheduling is out of your hands, and the option you presented isn’t available, I might actually consider just telling him you don’t have any options and step back from planning.

    2. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      Part of me is wondering if he held back on approving your party proposal on purpose, hoping to keep you from having a party. I’m reminded of a former company where they had held a holiday party the year before I started there, but in my first December there, we were told that there wouldn’t be a party, but we would be allowed to leave at 4:00 PM on December 24, and we could make our own party then (at our own expense, of course). We planned to go to a bar, but as we were leaving the office on December 24, the owner decided that two of us needed to stay until 5:00 PM to work with him. The rest of us left and silently went our separate ways, because we didn’t want to have a party without those two people. We never had a holiday party in all the years I worked there.

      At another company, the owner said at the end of December, “We didn’t have a party, did we?” No, we didn’t, but I hadn’t been expecting one, since we hadn’t had one in the years that I had been working there. He said that we would have a party in January. In January, the party was postponed to February. In February, it was postponed to March. In March, it was postponed to April. In April, it was postponed to May. And then it was never brought up again.

      Some companies just don’t want to have holiday parties but for one reason or another don’t want to admit it openly.

  14. Tradd*

    I asked my friend to post here, but she preferred I do it. I’ll call my friend Mary. We live and work in a very blue US state, but there are always those who feel differently. Mary works for a very progressive company, very inclusive. One of the owners has enjoyed sparring with the local non-progressives on social media for years. It’s extremely toxic. Since the election, that is causing a problem. Company is very open about being progressive and who they employee. All employees are listed on the company website, and have for years, with their photo, work email/phone number. The local non-progressives are now targeting employees where my friend works. Bullying on social media, harassing DMs, home delivered packages all of a sudden disappearing, harrasing emails/phone calls at the office. All the employees have asked for their photos/contact info to be taken off website, but owner refuses. Employees have shared screen shots, voice mails, emails they’ve received with ownership and law enforcement, but other than getting law enforcement involved, ownership won’t stop fighting with the local non-progressives on social media. He says he’s not going to hide, but that does nothing for the trans, gay, and people of color employees who are getting harassed and threatened, as well as the other employees. I’ve shared the personal digital security guide from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, as well as a good related article from Wired magazine this week. Any other suggestions?

    1. Name (Required)*

      Have the employees gotten together and made the request to the owner? There may be strength in numbers.

    2. Stuart Foote*

      This is a pretty wild situation…it seems like it’s time to get the police involved? Actually way past time. For at least some of the social harassment it seems that blocking and reporting is the way to go, but for the stuff that are actual crimes you have to get police involved (assuming the packages aren’t just getting stolen by porch pirates).

      I’d honestly be really annoyed if the owner of my company was constantly sparring with people on social media, even if I agreed with his overall point. I’d also be really annoyed if I HAD to have my photo and contact info on the company website. The owner seems like a complete ass and not someone I’d want to work for.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          you mentioned they’re receiving reports from the employees – have the employees asked the police for assistance reigning in the manager or forcing the removal of their personal info?

          1. Kay*

            Eh – police barely have the capacity for actual crimes. They can’t enforce something that isn’t even a crime.

          2. Tio*

            There’s probably no law enforcement basis to remove current employees, that’s more of an employer’s prerogative. Stupid, and I’d be happy to be wrong, but I doubt there’s much to do there. They also don’t really have a way to stop the owner unless he’s moved into actual harassment online like they have, which it doesn’t sound like he has, and if he had it would probably need to be brought by the other party he’s actively harassing, not the 3rd party employees.

    3. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      Mary and colleagues (stronger as a group) could perhaps make one more attempt at changing the owner’s mind by putting it to him in terms of: If you want to be *actually* progressive and inclusive, you will stop doing things that endanger your employees, especially marginalized employees.

      But ultimately this is a “boss won’t change, employee must choose accordingly” situation.

      1. Tradd*

        I will pass this wording along to Mary, thank you. From what she’s said, at least some of her coworkers are looking, but I’m not sure how the market is for their industry.

      2. MsM*

        Or at least respect their right to privacy and give them the opportunity to opt-out of having to be on the front lines of any fallout.

        Might also not hurt if they can find some examples of how other easily targeted companies and organizations handle it – I’m thinking journalists in areas without (ostensible) freedom of the press, who have to be reachable but also need to stay safe.

      3. HonorBox*

        This is a great point.

        “Boss, your passion is something we appreciate. But your passion has brought action against the people you’re trying to advocate for and protect, and your actions have made us much less safe than we were before. We’re being threatened and having things stolen from us, and we need you to stop.”

    4. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

      Yeah, this is performative activism, and this guy is really invested in his image. More than he’s invested in his employee’s safety and well-being. I think the employees need to brainstorm a way for him to save face while protecting them because he’s going to choose “Look at me! I’m so progressive!” over genuine problem solving every time.

    5. My Day (they/them)*

      Wow, how awful. Apart from getting a new job, if the EFF doesn’t recommend this already, I’d get a doorbell camera as well at home as stuff like locking down social media.

      At work, do you get calls from unknown numbers frequently- and if not, can employees pass out temporary Google Voice numbers or similar to their usual contacts? How secure is the location you work in? Is there a way you can make sure employees aren’t alone coming in or going out to and from a parking lot? Is there any building security? Can corporate email filters be leveraged to redirect harassing emails so they can be logged and employees don’t have to see them? You might not have the power to make some of these changes but it does sound like a situation that could escalate badly.

    6. Llellayena*

      “You are inadvertently creating a hostile environment for your minority employees. They are being harassed because of who they are due to your actions/posts. This is not being a good ally and could cause some of your employees to quit, leaving you with a much less diverse staff. Please remove identifying information about your staff from the website (and whatever else you want them to do at this point).” Maybe, just maybe, if you put it in terms that speaks to the things he’s trying to champion he’ll see the issue? It’s not necessarily a hostile WORK environment unless some of the harassment is happening at work or through work email, but it could get the ball rolling.

      1. Seashell*

        I wouldn’t use the term “hostile”, since he’s apt to think someone is misusing “hostile work environment” and trying to ramp up to a lawsuit. There are plenty of synonyms that would make the point without the possible confusion, like frightening, unpleasant, nerve-wracking, aggravating, etc.

    7. Anonymous Cat*

      Is there a legal department people could talk to about wanting their personal information down? I would think it would be a legal nightmare if someone is physically attacked after getting their info from the site.

      To be clear— the owner can do whatever he wants with HIS personal info/photos/contact info, but his employees should be able to opt out.

    8. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Talk to an employment lawyer (or suggest to your boss that they may want to talk to an employment lawyer) about your company’s affirmative duty to prevent or abate a hazard of workplace violence. This is covered under both federal and state legislation. The company may also be liable to damages in a civil lawsuit.

    9. Morgi Corgi*

      It may help to point out to him that right now he is emphasizing his own feelings (of being seen as the “good guy”) over the feelings of marginalized folk, who have asked him to stop because they feel unsafe. He’s doing what the non-progressive folks are doing, just in the opposite direction. One of the most important things an ally can do is LISTEN to what marginalized people say, which he is not doing. See if you can send him some articles on performative activism/allyship like this one: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/19/no-more-white-saviours-thanks-how-to-be-a-true-anti-racist-ally

    10. Hlao-roo*

      First, kudos to Mary and her coworkers for already raising this with the boss. And for involving law enforcement. It sounds like they are taking the right steps.

      If they want to try approaching ownership one more time, I wonder if either of these would be good approaches (Mary & co. should base their decision on what they know of the owner, as they obviously have more insight that me):

      – Making the case that the harassing calls/emails to their work phones/emails are eating up X hours of their time per week and causing a drop in productivity. Productivity would go up if the contact information was taken off the website. (Basically, making the case “this isn’t about hiding/giving in, it’s about being more profitable!” Maybe this guy cares more about money than about internet fights with strangers?)

      – Asking for last names to be removed from the website. Not as good as removing all of the information, but it will make it more difficult for potential new harassers to find out where “Tangerina” lives and what socials she uses than it is to find “Tangerina Warblesworth.”

      Also, you mention that it’s just “one of the owners” who enjoys the online sparring. Have Mary & co. talked to him, or have they approached the other owner(s)? They might get a better response from the other owner(s) (assuming that the other(s) have more power/ownership than Sparring Owner).

    11. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

      Mary’s workforce’s discontent and the momentum behind it are a GREAT powder keg for a unionization effort.

    12. Hyaline*

      The owner of this company sounds like a complete tool, to be honest. How attached is your friend to continuing to work there? He’s putting getting his social media jollies over the wellbeing and safety of his team–not to mention probably not creating the inclusive environment he thinks he is if he’s more interested in online showboating than actually getting face time and curating morale.

      This guy likes the idea of being progressive, but he’s not listening to the marginalized people working for him? Nope. Shut it down. Tell Mary she’s best served job hunting. This guy isn’t an ally, he’s a keyboard warrior, and his inability to see the difference suggests he may also be a pretty shitty boss.

    13. TheBunny*

      Get the police involved.

      My name and contact info aren’t on our company website but sales people find me all the time. Where there’s a will there’s a way and if this guy is going to keep stirring the pot, people are going to keep finding people who work with him.

  15. Just curious*

    I read an old AAM (from 2019 or thereabouts) back in the beginning of September by someone who dreamed that a co-worker died on Sept. 26 2024. They promised to update on that date. Did they update and I just missed it?

    2. Lexi Vipond*

      Alison did say something about it somewhere – she had made a note to follow up, but it was the day or very close to the day that her mum died.

  16. call me wheels*

    Hi everyone, I asked a few weeks ago for advice on work trousers. I really appreciated all the imput and I ended up getting a pair from Next that were fine, but when I picked them up I randomly decided to check out Primark next door also and immediately found like a completely perfect and comfortable pair of trousers there. They look like smart trousers on the front but have an elasticated waist and a tie on the inside and they’re very soft and stretchy. I would have bought 2 but they only had 1 of my size left. Probably going to return the Next pair unworn now! Just mentioning here in case someone else might find those useful too.

    Starting the new job on Monday, nervous but I think it’ll be okay fingers crossed :) any first day tips appreciated!

    1. A large cage of birds*

      Don’t be afraid to ask questions, even if they seem silly. Sometimes they can forget to mention the obvious things. I’ve decided I’m just going to be that person who asks, and it’s served me well.

      Congrats on the new job!

    2. Name (Required)*

      Good luck! No tips except not to rush to judgment. First days can be hard, and aren’t necessarily a direct indication of how the job will be.

      2. call me wheels*

        That is a good point! They have a little while before I have to return them, maybe I see how it goes.

    4. ecnaseener*

      Oh and first day(s) tip — take notes even on things you think you’ll remember. You get a lot of info thrown at you and don’t have the context to fully internalize it yet, so it’s nice to have those notes later.

    5. call me wheels*

      Realised I totally forgot to update on the other probably more important thing I asked for help with! Basically I was worried about medical appointments and a funeral in my first 2 weeks, Im allowed to just leave and come back again for 1 appointment, 1 is outside work hours anyway, and I get a day of unpaid leave for the funeral so it’s all totally fine! I was worrying over nothing really :’)

  17. WeirdChemist*

    How can I keep my coworkers from trying to invite me to their thanksgivings? I’m single and live on the other side of the country from the rest of my family. I’d rather save up my vacation time/airport energy to go home for Christmas than thanksgiving, so I’m planning on making myself a mini-feast and lounging in pajamas for the long weekend. The problem is, my coworkers keep a) asking about my thanksgiving plans and b) insisting that I instead join their families for dinner. As an introvert who genuinely enjoys cooking for myself, I’m really looking forward to my own plans and definitely don’t want to be awkwardly making small talk with a bunch of strangers!

    When I answer the initial question about my thanksgiving plans, I answer with a positive tone about how excited I am for my own plan, but I still usually get a response of “oh, you should come over to my thanksgiving!” I follow it with a “no really, I’m really looking forward to my own plans, thanks!”, and some people let it go, but others get really insistent, with some implied pity that I’m some poor tragic thing that *of course* shouldn’t be alone at thanksgiving! And of course, the pushiest people are the ones who would take it the most personally that I’m turning them down. I’m pretty sure one of my coworkers genuinely thinks I’m coming over, despite the fact that I’ve given her several direct “no I have my own plans”?? I don’t know how much more direct I can be…

    1. soontoberetired*

      I have never worked with people who are that pushy about other people’s private plans. It is so weird. You may try just giving them the bare minimum of information – just say I’m covered. Repeatedly. They are not owed your details.

      1. WeirdChemist*

        It is super weird! It’s definitely not everyone (most people accept the initial no thanks) it’s just a select few… Last year I managed to avoid getting asked about my plans before thanksgiving, and only got asked afterwards what I did. Which I think kick-started the pity with some people that they remembered I guess, because I got asked about my plans a *lot* more this year… part of the problem was someone asking me during a large meeting if I was going home for thanksgiving, to which I answered no, and most of my office heard… I’m also one of the youngest in my office, on of the very few that are unmarried, and also one of the few that don’t have any local family, so I definitely get the whole “oh you poor lonely, wayward soul” thing. I try to keep details to a minimum but some people are just so darn pushy!

        1. Hermione Danger*

          Maybe it’s time to invent a brand new partner you just met who you are so excited to be spending Thanksgiving with?

    2. Whale I Never*

      At this point I would start lying, tbh. Front-loading with excitement for your own plans would have been my initial answer, if people keep being pushy beyond that, then actually it turns out two friends you don’t see much reached out about Friendsgiving.

        1. K Smith*

          Yeah, fellow introvert here… sometimes it is easiest to just lie. It can be way less exhausting than having to repeat “no, I’m actually happy on my own, thanks!” repeatedly.

      2. Panicked*

        This is my suggestion too. “Oh thank so much for the invitation, but I’ve already got plans with friends!” Pop on a rerun of “Friends” at some point during the day and voila, no lie at all.

    3. Alexandra Beth*

      Could you invent an old friend who happens to be in town so is coming to stay with you for a couple of days??

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        This. I thought maybe saying you’re hosting “Friendsgiving” could work (your friends are your pyjamas and couch) but that might invite participation inquiries from other people without plans, whereas “Childhood friend who you see very rarely is in town, how lovely!” doesn’t invite people to infringe on your plans.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I like this idea, but would modify it to something like, “An old friend just moved into town with their family and they invited me to join them for Thanksgiving as a housewarming! Thanks for the invite though!”

        Because, with someone as pushy and boundary stomping as these coworkers, I could see them saying, “Bring your (imaginary old friend) with you! The more the merrier! Don’t you see how generous and what a good person I am?”

      3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I like this idea, but would modify it to something like, “An old friend just moved into town with their family and they invited me to join them for Thanksgiving as a housewarming! Thanks for the invite though!”

        Because, with someone as pushy and boundary stomping as these coworkers, I could see them saying, “Bring your (imaginary old friend) with you! The more the merrier!”

      4. Ama*

        I’m doing this with my mom this year because she understands me skipping one of Thanksgiving/Christmas to go to my husband’s family but if we decide not to do that (husband’s siblings are all in very different life stages, sometimes we can’t make the logistics work) she expects us to fly home for both holidays. I’m at a stage in my life where I have flown almost every Thanksgiving and Christmas for over two decades and sometimes my spouse and I like to have a quiet holiday without having to deal with holiday air travel, sleeping in an uncomfortable bed that’s not ours, not being with our pet, etc. My mom doesn’t understand this reasoning but she’s also never had to do a trip bigger than a 3 hour drive for a holiday and has rarely had an overnight stay, so she just doesn’t get how much it takes out of us.

        So this year we’re going for Thanksgiving but have told her we’re trying to get my husband’s brother and his wife to come visit us for Christmas — we actually have extended an invitation, but if it doesn’t happen to work out, oh well.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s really ok to tell a white lie. “I accepted another invitation, but thank you!” would have been fine. You can’t really say that now– I mean, you COULD– but you can also just say you’re booked for the evening.

      A reminder that no one needs details. Ever. It’s totally fine to say, “Oh,thank you, I have somewhere to go on Thanksgiving.” They don’t need to know that “somewhere” is your couch. “I’m spending Thanksgiving with a friend.” They don’t need to know that your friend is a dog or a cat or a plant.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        This is probably what I would do, simply because it avoids the awkwardness that these pushy coworkers are creating.

        And it’s not really lying; you’re just being concise.

        “I accepted another invitation…” from myself.
        “I already have plans…” with myself.

        1. WeirdChemist*

          The problem is I am already telling them that I have plans! They’re just not accepting my answer… I’m probably going to go with several peoples suggestions of just straight up lying about a surprise friend coming to visit. I didn’t want to have to outright lie, but unfortunately the pushiest people will probably accept that answer better than my actual plans :/

          1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

            For what it’s worth, it’s not your job to manage someone else’s feelings or reactions. They’re adults, they can deal with the results of their own (odd) actions.

          2. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

            If the problem is people not accepting your “no thanks” then they may not accept a lie about your conflicting plans as sufficient reason to back off either (friend visiting? why not bring your visiting friend. Is friend a date? what are you doing with friend? why can’t friend come too?) leading to either increasingly elaborated lies, or you eventually break down and give them the direct answer you should have originally, but now with a lot more uncomfortable emotion attached.

            When people are persistently pushy, I’m a big fan of returning awkward to sender early. If 2 attempts to set a boundary in a friendly, warm way aren’t accepted, the next time is going to be more direct: “I said no thank you.” “Asking again won’t change my answer.” “I can’t come because I don’t want to.” Still warm tone, and if they accept that and back off (even if defensively, like “I was just trying to be nice!”) I immediately pivot to something friendly and face-saving. If they push after that, my next response is still direct and no longer warm, and may include leaving the conversation. I have only rarely had to escalate to that level. The warm-direct boundary works with nearly everyone.

    5. Double A*

      You could say, “Just a small family thing at home!” You don’t have to mention that the only family there will be your chosen family of whatever book/movie/TV/just in your head characters you’re hanging out with for the day.

    6. AlabamaAnonymous*

      I am in the same situation! I am so looking forward to my introvert Thanksgiving — my goal is not to have to leave the house. I have cultivated a reputation for introversion at work, so most people just accept my plans as one of my quirks. But I know that doesn’t work for everyone. Do you have a pet? Or a houseplant that you could name? Then you say you are spending the holiday with your good friend George (or whatever). That might get them to leave you alone. I’ve even named my car Holly and would definitely use my friend Holly as an excuse for something like this if I needed to.
      And I’m sorry you are dealing with this. I will never understand why people are so pushy about things like this.

      1. WeirdChemist*

        Here’s to introvert thanksgiving! No leaving the house, no real pants, all Netflix :)

        And despite the fact that my coworkers always accept my answer of “how was your weekend” with “great, I did nothing and went nowhere!” as being fine, this has weirdly become a sticking point!

      2. Retirednow*

        As I have mentioned, I would worry about using a friend is coming over as the excuse – they may say to just bring them. I would go with a friend has offered to have you come to their Thanksgiving instead.

        1. bay scamp*

          If that happens, you say, “My friend’s a strict vegan and refuses to be around meat dishes” or “My friend has severe food allergies so can’t be around gluten/nuts/seafood/etc.” (which would give you excuses for not being available during other parts of Thanksgiving break since obviously you have to spend hours decontaminating your kitchen or procuring/preparing a vegan feast) or “My friend has extreme social anxiety so being around a bunch of strangers would cause them a mental health crisis” or whatever. They can’t make you attend their Thanksgiving with or without an imaginary friend.

    7. Hlao-roo*

      Ugh, sorry some of your coworkers are being pushy about your Thanksgiving plans (which sound great to me!). I don’t love this answer, but can you tell them you’ve been invited to a local friend’s place for Thanksgiving and will be eating dinner there? That should satisfy their (weird and unreasonable) “WeirdChemist cannot be alone!” thoughts, and will get you out of further “what are your plans? you must come over to our place” conversations.

      If you don’t feel comfortable lying to your coworkers, keep on as you are, and they will realize you aren’t coming over when you simply don’t show up.

    8. jane's nemesis*

      Can you just make up a white lie and say you’ve decided to spend thanksgiving with your best friend since you can’t go home? So they won’t be worried you’re alone. Bonus points if you have a pet who is your best friend so you’re not even lying!

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Or, you could think of it as being your own best friend. Because really, we should all be friendly to ourselves.

        2. Emotional support capybara (he/him)*

          I’d use the same three friends I split my “sharing size” M&Ms with: Me, Myself, and I.

    9. Spreadsheet Queen*

      You tell them you are having a couple of very close friends over. They don’t have to know that your close friends are actually cats. (Or dogs, or a parakeet and a fish).

    10. AnonyOne*

      It seems like there are two options, if she was a friend, I might say something like “Jane, I keep telling you this is what I am doing and want to do and you keep pushing back, what’s going on? / it’s started to feel like you are criticising my plans and I am sure that is not what you mean / can I ask you to drop it, this is genuinely what I want”.
      With a coworker, I might just lie “I have several Zooms planned with family during the day, and really want to connect with them that way, so really cannot join you, but thanks so much!”

      1. WeirdChemist*

        Saying that I’ll be on FaceTime with my family all day is actually a great idea! In reality I’ll probably FaceTime for like 20 minutes just to say high to everyone, but technically “I have plans with my family” isn’t a lie, and it will better get people of my back. Part of the problem is that I’m a) one of the youngest in the office, b) one of the very few unmarried people, and c) one of the few who’s not originally from the local area, so I tend to get a lot of “oh you poor wayward soul” type comments from people. So saying that I’m still connecting with my family might help a lot!

        1. AnonyOne*

          I always find that white lies that have some connection to reality are safest. If I said I had a friend coming, I would likely forget and give the “wrong” answer to something at some point, exposing the lie. With something like the call with family that actually happens although for less time than you implied, you are more likely to give an answer that lines up with what you told them (and as you are replying your brain has a chance to catch up and remember that you had exaggerated this story so you can remember to stick with it), plus it is a bit boring so there are fewer follow ups to deal with (how long did your friend stay, what did you do together, what did she think of the area, etc).
          This makes it sound like I spend far more time lying than is actually the case, but I see nothing wrong with a white lie to protect yourself when someone is being intrusive.

    11. learnedthehardway*

      Tell people you already have plans – you’re getting together with friends or perhaps family is coming in to visit you.

    12. KatStat*

      I was in a similar situation my first year in the workforce. I had just spent the prior nearly 4 months traveling 2 hours most weekends back to the city I had gone to school in to finish writing my master’s thesis. I turned in my thesis the Sunday before Thanksgiving and was really looking forward to being home alone for the holiday. My family lived across the country and I had to work Friday because I didn’t have enough vacation days to take that and also go for Christmas.

      The lady I shared an office with was so concerned that I was planning to spend Thanksgiving alone. She invited me to join her family (which included small children and extended relatives). I declined but she continued to invite me. In fact she even called me at home (pre cell phone days) on Thanksgiving morning to invite me again. I just kept saying that I was looking forward to a quiet day and had my meal all planned. I think she was truly baffled that anyone would want to spend the holiday alone.

      You sound like you are responding exactly right. Just emphasize that you are looking forward to your plans or maybe that you plan to Zoom into your family celebration.

    13. Stretchy McGillicuddy*

      oh yeah, people get really, really pushy if they think you are spending Thanksgiving alone. This is exactly what lying was invented for. For this year: “Actually I just signed up to volunteer at a [shelter/senior center/clown academy] for the day and I’m really looking forward to it.” In the future “Yep! I have 25 relatives coming over. So fun!”

    14. Qwerty*

      Can you say you have a virtual Thanksgiving planned with your family? Specifically timed near dinner. Combine this with being excited for the special day that you have planned for yourself.

      I ran into this a few years ago when an injury meant I couldn’t travel home. What is happening is your coworkers are imagining how sad they would be if they were alone. Being geniunely excited to be alone and gracious about their request went over well with me. I learned telling them how I had a special day for myself planned and not sharing the details was important (I spent the day doing laundry and cleaning my apartment – it was glorious and all the machines in our shared laundry room were free all day. This was an activity I learned not to share)

    15. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      Can you say “I’m having an old friend for dinner” in an educated sort of accent? This will let them know you already have plans, and also ensure they’ll never bother you with an invitation again

    16. Llellayena*

      “I already have multiple invites. Unfortunately I can’t make it to yours.” All these things are true, you’re just not mentioning that you haven’t accepted any of the other invites.

    17. HonorBox*

      While it is kind of them to offer, it is unkind of them to not respect you by taking no for an answer. I think telling a lie right now if absolutely forgivable because the truth isn’t being respected. Your college roommate/best friend/cousin is going to be in the area and wanted to stop and stay with you for a couple of days. And be REALLY excited that they’re coming.

    18. Unkempt Flatware*

      I get this every single year and from people who barely even know me. Now I’m good about shutting that stuff down at the pass.

      “Oh what are your holiday plans?”
      “I’ll never make the mistake of leaving my fortress of solitude during holidays ever again.”
      “Oh, uhh….” *walks away*

    19. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      Just lie and tell people you’re having dinner with your family. Some people just can’t help but make things awkward, because they believe their good intentions trump any other consideration.

    20. Hyaline*

      How opposed are you to a white lie? “Oh, I have low-key plans with some friends at my place. Looking forward to it! [cue subject change]” You do. The plans are low-key, at your place, with your friends…your PJs and slippers.

    21. Bitte Meddler*

      I would tell them that you need the time to practice a few new recipes for things you want to make for your family when you see them at Christmas.

    22. David*

      I haven’t had to deal with this sort of thing myself so take this with a grain of salt, but this sounds like the perfect situation for returning the awkwardness to the sender, as Alison and others have mentioned in the past. I’m thinking of phrases like “Truly, I’m happy with the plans I have for Thanksgiving” (said with just the barest hint of annoyance), then escalating to “Really, I’m all set, let’s just drop it”, and then if even that doesn’t do the trick, “How I spend my holidays is my concern, not yours. I’m asking you not bring this topic up with me again.” This sounds rude, I know, but that’s exactly the point: when softer language doesn’t get you the effect you want – and this is an extremely reasonable thing for you to want – rudeness is how you cut through these people’s stubborn refusal to hear what you’re asking them for. In other words, when they don’t respect your first couple polite “no”s, they’re bringing it on themselves.

      For context, I grew up in the Northeast US and this approach probably reflects the culture of the region. But I think the idea of escalating rudeness just up until it’s enough to get your point across is a legitimately useful thing no matter where you are.

    23. Nightengale*

      When I’ve been in similar situations, as an introvert who loves to cook, I leaned into all the great things I am making like I am roasting a WHOLE CHICKEN which is really like a small turkey and did you know you can cut a roll recipe down to 1/4 teaspoon of yeast and just make 4 rolls so I have this great new recipe to try and also pineapple upside-down cake in a mug is just amazing. . . .

  18. bluedot*

    Yesterday there was casual talk of removing DEI from our company’s promotional materials. It was framed as: ‘we have to because of politics.’ Diversity is (I guess WAS) a core part of our values. Am I overreacting by being horrified? Everyone is acting like this is not a bit deal.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There’s a difference between what you do and what you advertise.

      All the things you should be doing while cognizant of DEI can still be done, but your management may decide there’s no advantage – and might be a disadvantage – in boasting about it on the website.

      So pay attention to the “what you do” part going forward.

      1. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        Yes, What Alton Brown’s Evil Twin said.

        My institution is a state college in FL, where the governor has legislatively prohibited use of state funding or institutional support for activities labeled DEI. Some departments scuttled their DEI committees, focus groups, or initiatives, as was presumably the governor’s intent. Some continue to operate but have stopped advertising. Some continue to operate or even expended their efforts and advertising but rebranded it as service enhancement initiatives, community-building, interdisciplinary collaboration, professional development, recruitment and retention strategies, and so on.

      3. Tradd*

        Given the current political situation, removing mention of DEI on company website, while still having those policies in place internally, seems to be wise. See my post earlier in today’s thread.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Well a lot of companies do DEI-washing, right? They splash stuff on the website, set up powerless committees, hold events. But nothing actually changes where it matters.

          This is the opposite. You can do all the important things without using a buzzword that’s become contentious.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I would be horrified, too. Some people may be thinking about it as JUST removing it from promotional materials, but if you’re afraid/ashamed/whatever to talk about DEI, you can’t have a good commitment to it.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        This! I would side eye any org that removed that from their material right now. It shows a lack of dedication and that they don’t have the courage of their convictions.

    3. Box of Kittens*

      “We have to because of politics” is such a lazy cop-out. But also, most companies only have DEI initiatives because of public opinion and politics; they’re definitely not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts so it’s not surprising. Which probably explains why no one around you is really reacting. Individuals might believe in DEI initiative but the corporate level follows the money and political incentives.

    4. Busy Middle Manager*

      Remember that alot of companies put out DEI statements/hired a DEI Director in 2020/2021 to copy what other companies do. Wall St is very fad driven, and while DEI isn’t necessarily a fad, putting the very-similar statements on your website, etc. and adding a DEI blurb to various reports is. Same way everyone mentions “AI” now even if they aren’t even talking about AI, but large language models or even just regular analysis, which drives me nuts

      I wouldn’t take it as a sign of what the company actually does

      1. DJ Abbott*

        Yes. I’m 62 and have noticed this all my adult life. I was job hunting 2020 to 2022, and they all had a DEI statement at the beginning of their posts. They know what they’re supposed to say, but that doesn’t mean they believe it or do it.
        It’s been that way all my adult life. They all say what they’re supposed to say, whatever that is at the moment, but they don’t necessarily believe it. I just ignore it and move on to evaluate them as if the statement isn’t there. It’s just window dressing.

    5. Double A*

      Yes. People don’t need to capitulate because of what MIGHT happen in the future. This is how authoritarianism wins; people pre-emptively self-censor.

      1. SAW*

        This is exactly what I was going to say! I want to re-emphasize that we shouldn’t pre-emptively capitulate on our values.

    6. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think the bigger thing would be to take stock of whether or not the existing DEI initiative were working / helping / improving your company. Did they decide that stuff was important but nothing changed about the makeup of your leadership team? The kind of leave you get? How sick days are managed? Who gets promotions? Etc. Removing DEI from your promo materials isn’t great, but I think it’s only worrying if the company was actually making good inroads on their DEI initiatives in the first place. If it was just the usual corporate DEI-washing to pretend they’re good corporate stewards or whatever, then it’s annoying but unsurprising.

    7. Ann O'Nemity*

      You’re right to be horrified. It shows you’re committed to fostering an inclusive and representative work environment, and that’s a very good thing!

      DEI has become highly politicized, especially in certain fields. Companies often have to navigate complex social and political pressures, and it’s increasingly common for organizations to face scrutiny for either embracing or distancing themselves from DEI.

      I’ve seen a lot of organizations, especially in education and public sector, shift the language to focus on inclusion and highlighting specific groups like veterans. It appears to be a strategy to continue the spirit of DEIA values while reducing political friction. “Inclusive” tends to be seen as a more universally accepted term and emphasizes the positive outcomes of diversity without triggering as much political debate.

    8. Tea Monk*

      I’m not horrified but feel cynical. Like they only cared about PoC or LGBT or disabled people when it was popular. But I understand companies don’t have souls and only care about money.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        It really sucks, but the mental framing for corporate tongue-wagging about ANY issue always has to start with ‘they want the dollars from that demographic’ – in my opinion a company can go above and beyond and actually prove that their values go beyond expanding their customer scope, but that takes time and continued effort.

    9. Meep*

      I mean, I see where they are coming from? In this political climate it IS safer to remove it. Especially when new government leadership has been very open about how it will be going after minorities and businesses who support them. They can still do best DEI practices on “the down low”.

    10. Qwerty*

      It is promotional materials so I don’t put much stock in it to begin with? I feel like a companies do promotional things related to DEI whenever the liberal side is stronger but rarely make meaningful changes internally. When there are strong internal changes, they are impactful enough that you can advertise how great the company is without having to specifically call out DEI.

      It may also be worth reading Tradd’s post above to see why the company may be concerned. I would focus on how the internals of the company will operate more than what they put on a pamphlet.

    11. Morgi Corgi*

      No, you’re not overreacting. That IS horrifying and sending a clear message to people in marginalized communities. And I feel like DEI is needed now more than ever.

    12. Some Dude*

      Possibly. It depends on if they are doing it so they won’t be politically targeted or if they are doing it because DEI is so 2020 and we are moving on. I work in nonprofits and we are being more careful how we talk about our work because of lawsuits against orgs targeting certain populations. We aren’t abandoning our equity work, but we are framing it publicly in a way that is less likely to get us into a nuisance lawsuit.

      I do think the results of DEI initiatives have been pretty mixed, and several corporations who hired DEI officers in 2020 have laid them off. I’m not sure if those companies are actually being less inclusive or just realized that the department wasn’t really delivering results, or was creating its own set of issues.

    13. Too many cats*

      No not at all. We are a society of diverse ppl not just privileged white men. “Politics” doesn’t change that and your company is way out of line as it’s not yet been mandated by the US govt.

  19. Sloanicota*

    I have realized that my current job is extremely flexible, with a four day workweek, but there is no expectation of PTO whatsoever. Would you make the trade for a flexible 32 hour work week if you know you could never ever really be off? I’ve basically been making that trade for the past year, and I know it’s not that uncommon in small businesses, particularly in people like farmers.

    1. Sloanicota*

      Fully remote, to clarify, so you can even travel! (Not like a farmer). But boss won’t hesitate to text you about even relatively minor things and you’re kind of expected to make it work.

      1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

        How meaningful can a 32 hour work week possibly be if you’re never really “off”? If your boss can ping you for something and expect an asap response on day 5 of the week, then you don’t have a 4 day work week. Not worth it IMO.

    2. Friday Hopeful*

      As long as I could take time off (even if unpaid) I would take the flexibility if that makes you happiest. How much time off have you normally taken in past jobs? Does the wage you get paid make up for the wage you will miss when you take unpaid time?

      1. Sloanicota*

        You can take the time off, there’s just the ongoing expectation that you will still have to handle your stuff, and it will continue to come up when you’re “out.” We’re too small for anything else – I handle a specific sector and we don’t back each other up. So basically the tradeoff is you’re never really “on” all the way (because it’s totally flexible hours) but you’re also never really “off” all the way. I actually know a couple people who live like this now, post-Covid, with the way things got shuffled around. Like you don’t really take sick leave now unless you’re in a literal coma, because you can pretty much always check email at some point and respond to a few things that are time-sensitive, and that becomes the expectation.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I would hate this.

          One thing my long-ish trip to the UK in 2014 taught me is that being able to truly unplug is essential for my mental health. And the toxicity of OldExjob taught me to not think about work AT ALL when I’m not on the clock. I had to do that to not let it run me into the ground.

          If you’re never truly off, you will burn out. It’s not worth it for any amount of money.

    3. Decidedly Me*

      Do you not get PTO or just when taking it, you’re still going to get bothered? If the latter – how much are you bothered during PTO and how much work do you end up putting in on those days?

      1. Sloanicota*

        The latter. You get PTO and can take it, but there’s no ability to actually be sure you won’t get that call (and you do often do – but it may just be one quick thing?). In four years here I don’t think I’ve ever taken more than one day off without having to log back in to deal with something or at least fielding texts and calls from my coworkers. Now I also sort of do it to myself also. My boss is the exact same or probably worse.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      The flexibility sounds like it’s theirs, not yours. You might get four days per week, but they get the flexibility of basically having you on call all the time. When do you get to unwind and recharge?

      I want a four day workweek, but not at the expensive of never being able to go on vacation and be unbothered.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I have come to realize I’ve always had a messed up relationship with PTO lol. At my first job I was the only employee so me being out was a huge inconvenient burden to everyone so I just never did it, except when the office itself was closed. My second job, my boss used his PTO to work remotely (because that office had no remote work). So he would take a sick day because he wanted to be able to work from home, and he encouraged us to do the same as “mental health days” which I only realized later was kind of messed up. And this job, my boss is never unreachable. But like I said, I realize that sounds a bit messed up in a white collar office job but I think is the default if you’re, say, a restaurant owner, or even the highest manager at a restaurant, no?

        1. Bruce*

          Being the owner or top manager should be paid well enough to make the burden worth it. Ideally everyone else should be able to take time really off so that they are only contacted in a real emergency.

    5. Strive to Excel*

      No. I want a nice quiet in-office 8-5 where once I shut my computer for the day I’m done.

      But it’s really up to individual taste.

    6. ecnaseener*

      Is it flexible, or is it just a short week? (Don’t get me wrong, a 4-day week sounds divine.) Like, can you choose the 4 days? Can you work 5-day weeks if you want comp time for a vacation?

      1. Sloanicota*

        It’s 8 hours M-Thurs, but also very flexible within that time – I can work from anywhere, take a long talk in the middle of the day as long as I have my phone with me, go to a doctor’s appointment and just make up the time in the evening, etc. I’m not trying to complain here, I think this is a pretty good deal on the whole, I’m just not sure I would have gone for it if it it was explained this way at the outset.

        1. WellRed*

          I can do all that stuff too but I don’t get bugged on my day off. I don’t have to be attached to my phone just in case. Does your boss ping you on your honeymoon?

    8. Paint N Drip*

      I think it depends how much stress that work (or waiting for a work call) causes, how disruptive that REALLY is. You obviously SHOULD be able to just unplug during vacation, but how much is it impacting your rest & relaxation? My current work is not stressful to me, so if my boss calls me on a vacation day it just takes that time but doesn’t distress me or mess up my vacation relaxation – I also am NOT expecting those calls, so I don’t have any the fear hanging over my head just waiting. I also have a kinda fkd up relationship to PTO though lmao

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yeah, it is just paperwork, it’s annoying but it’s rarely terribly stressful. The issues are usually caused by our dysfunction and small size. I think I’m a little numb to this because I live in a “striver” type city where most people are very career-oriented and don’t think much of checking email (on their phones perhaps) a couple times on vacation and handling anything that has come up.

    9. RussianInTexas*

      No. I want my PTO to be my PTO. Unless it’s “we are on fire” emergency, do not call, text, e-mail me on vacation. I lock my laptop on Friday at 5pm and don’t look at it until Monday. And I am not looking at it on vacation. Ever.

    10. WS*

      My partner is a small business owner who technically “works” 35 hours a week and that sounds similar. It’s a choice that works for some people and is horrible for others.

  20. Red*

    I need a script for how to handle the political talk in the office or at least reconcile what I’m hearing with what I think of these people. I’m a blue voter in a red area of a blue state. My coworkers all voted for the red president as well as some pretty dark resolutions on our state ballots. After the election when everyone of course was talking about the results they revealed why they voted the way they did. Two workers voted to punish others and the rest kind of just agreed that yeah that was reasonable. Unfortunately, though they don’t know it, I’m one of the people they voted to ‘punish’.
    I know it’s not my job to persuade others or reason with them, but it’s alarming knowing I’m likely unsafe at work because of this should my full circumstances be revealed to them. Just how do I cope?

    1. Colette*

      There are a variety of things you can do, and it’s up to you what you choose.

      1) Do nothing or nod along. It’s OK to do that to keep yourself safe.

      2) Push back (mildly). “Wow.” “That’s a really awful way to talk about people.” “You’re saying that about people I love.”

      But I think it’s OK if you let this information affect your relationships with your coworkers. You still have to be civil and work with them, but you don’t have to do anything more.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      If you understand “punish” to mean harm and you feel unsafe, that sounds like something to take to HR (if they exist). Unless HR is truly terrible, I think anyone would be on solid ground to alert them to threats of violence from staff, heard in a discussion that occurred in the workplace, and ask how they plan to ensure there is no violence in the workplace or between staff members. If they meant it another way, like sabotaging professional reputations, that’s also something HR should know about and have/make a plan to prevent. It’s alarming indeed.

      1. Mutually supportive*

        But what if HR are also red? This doesn’t sound like a great idea to me, I think I’d rather just keep quiet and out of the way.

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          I mean, I think competent HR—of any political leaning—would want to know about their employees conspiring to violence. They may agree with the outcome of the election, but unless they’re truly terrible (like I said!) I imagine they don’t want threats of violence floating about the workplace. And I don’t think it’s a partisan issue to want to keep threats of violence out of one’s workplace. But yes, OP should of course use their best judgment.

      2. Nola*

        Punish in this scenario probably doesn’t mean “physically attack someone at the office” but probably means “deny gender affirming care” or “deny due process to immigrants to make it easier to deport them.”

    4. Morgi Corgi*

      Normally I’d advocate for pushing back, but because this is work, and you need to be able to tolerate each other you need to be more careful. This is especially true if you’re a member of a marginalized group and pushing back may make things unsafe for you. You could try the approach I use with our patients “Let’s not discuss politics please, you never know who you might offend!” or “Could we avoid the political talk please?” then change the subject. If they’re specifically saying something like “immigrants are trying to steal our jobs” you can go with “wow, what a thing to say!” It might be worthwhile to talk to HR and find out exactly what your company’s anti-discrimination policies are.

      If you’re feeling especially brave and don’t care how your coworkers feel about you there’s always the option to say “You know I’m *member of group you want to punish* right?” and watch them all try to backpedal (I’ve done this myself a few times as I’m white-passing and not obviously gay or trans), but again, that may not be a safe option, and of course it’s not your job to educate your coworkers on how they’re harming you.

  21. Friday Hopeful*

    Question for bookkeepers and accountants-
    I do a lot of freelance bookkeeping work and I have a new client who I will be working for part time. I am replacing someone who worked as their “bookkeeper” also but they were in actuality and accountant. Some of the work they did is way beyond what I’ve ever done for any other clients and beyond my know-how. I have general accounting knowledge but I do not have an accounting degree. My question is what exactly would they expect me to do when it comes to projections (for paying taxes) and end of year adjustments that the accountant has come to rely on their current bookkeeper to do? I’m trying to explain this to them (in case they want to find someone else) but I am not sure where the line is drawn between bookkeeping and accounting in this case. Should I be expected to know about projections and carry forwards etc. as a bookkeeper? This has always been something I did not touch for any other clients (mostly I’m doing cleints’ daily write up, bank and credit card reconciliations, payables, sales tax returns and sometimes entering their payroll). Thanks in advance!

    1. Strive to Excel*

      For purposes of your client, the most important thing is that they get a very clear understanding of what work you can and cannot do for them. Different firms provide different services; if the firm of you cannot provide this service, then it can’t provide this service.

      In a broader context, yes, I’d expect a bookkeeper to know some of the basics of year-end and higher level concepts as well as being able to do basic entry, but not to the extent where I’d assume it. Bookkeeper can be a pretty broad range of skills, and it’s common for year-end reconciling entries and other more complex accounting items to be filed under “accounting” while recording is filed under “bookkeeping”. I’d recommend learning more about it though!

      For US taxes specifically, you might want to look into Licensed Tax Preparers and what specific restrictions they are expected to operate on. Once you start doing tax work there’s a certain amount of duty of care that you might be liable for (which is why I don’t do other people’s taxes).

      1. Friday Hopeful*

        Thanks for the reply. I guess my main concern is that I’m trying to tell them some of these things are out of my purview, but the person who is doing it now is just shaking her head like oh well it HAS to be done by the office (not the accountant) and told me they shouldn’t have to pay an accountant to do the accountant things because this person who has been doing them for 25 years as a bookkeeper is actually an accountant (and worked as one for 20 years previous to that). Before I get deeper into this job I am going to start making it very clear what i can and can not do. Honestly if they feel they need to hire someone else that would be ok with me, Id rather that than feel stress over not knowing the work.

        1. Annie Edison*

          I almost wonder if it would be worth saying that even more directly, assuming you really do feel fine about them going elsewhere and don’t need the work? I’m thinking something like “your previous bookkeeper was also an accountant and therefore could do xyz for you, in addition to basic bookkeeping. I’m not able to offer those tasks, and I’m wondering if you might be happier to proceed with someone else who can? Let me know if you’d like to go forward with me doing tasks abc or look elsewhere for someone who does both” and maybe even offer a referral if you know someone who does the type of thing they are wanting. That way you know you’ve given them the option to go elsewhere, and been as clear as you possibly can that they aren’t going to get those services from you

        2. Strive to Excel*

          Danger Will Robinson!

          I’d tell them, very bluntly, “I cannot and will not offer tax preparation and journal entry creation services. Here is my contract where I explicitly state I will not be offering them. If that is acceptable to you, then we can move forwards, but I will not be doing them. Here is the name of the local CPA firm, I hear they’re quite good.”

          But unless your options for jobs are very tight I would not take this client. I think you’re going to be dealing with a non-stop slew of “but our previous accountant did X!”.

          1. Friday Hopeful*

            This is just one client in a seas of clients I have. It was a job to fill in my extra day that I didn’t have much work, a few hours a week. I definitely don’t need it. It seems like a nice place, and who can’t use some extra money. But you are right, I do have some time before I’m left on my own and will definitely have this discussion more straightforward if need be.

        3. Paint N Drip*

          They’re already giving you some flags that I don’t love – they don’t understand where a bookkeeper and accountant diverge, and aren’t willing to hear you when you clarify which side of the line you’re on. It’s totally fine to be a bookkeeper like you’ve been doing and NOT understand or want to be involved in the year-end or other complex accounting, that’s a legitimate business service that’s needed and you don’t need to expand your scope just because one client expects it. I also do freelance books and I’d tell them I’m not the right person for what they’re seeking.

          1. Friday Hopeful*

            Thanks for the confirmation. It really sometimes makes me doubt my own skills when I come across a situation like this. I know I’m a good bookkeeper and I’m going to make it clear what I won’t be able to do. Its good to hear from someone who does freelance like me, thanks.

      2. Kay*

        I fully agree with everything Strive to Excel said. The most important thing is that if you can’t do it, don’t.

        I’m also here to say that I would be able to expect a bookkeeper to be able to do some of the higher level things they are asking for. I would expect a bookkeeper to have an idea of the rate they are going to be taxed at, determine their income/expenses, project that for the year and come up with a ballpark payment amount, being able to answer questions on whether that included the figures for the year end employer pd 401k match and depreciation of assets. Without knowing more on what those JE items historically have been it is hard to say if it is as simple as oops we originally recorded that as X category but it should have been expensed as Y or something more in depth. The accountant would have the final say and prepare the taxes – but they have a bookkeeper so there aren’t any surprises. Otherwise they could hire a simple admin to reconcile bank statements imo.

        1. Cj*

          I would expect a bookkeeper to be able to do everything you said except project what the tax liability would be.

          the only way that would even be possible is if the company is a C corporation. and even then then rules around NOL carryforwards being limited to 80% of taxable income, carryforwards of Section 179, contributions, etc. And the rules about depreciation on automobiles, pickups over 6,000GWV but they have to have it least a certain length bed, SUVs over 6,000GVW have different rules and so on.

          I wouldn’t expect an in-house accountant to know these things as they are specifically related to tax.

          but it sounds like the OP isn’t even comfortable doing the non-
          tax related year end adjustments, so they should probably decline the engagement.

        2. Friday Hopeful*

          Year end journal entries for corrections are one thing. All the other things you mentioned, no as a bookkeeper at the expected level they are hiring me, these are not things I should be doing (projecting, tax rates, depreciation of assets) these are duties of someone with a degree in accounting or an actual accountant. What they hired me on a day to day basis for is nowhere near this level. I would have turned down the job if they had mentioned these things. However, I don’t think they even realize the level of accounting at which the current person has been doing these things for the last few decades. I will have a talk with them and maybe they will need to find someone else.

  22. audra*

    How long is too long to be waiting on a response to an offer? I received an offer for an internal position on a Friday afternoon and promptly proposed a counteroffer the following Monday. It has now been two weeks since the offer, with no formal response to what I proposed. Is this normal?

    The last time I asked for an update was last week, and I was told I would likely not hear anything back until the end of this week. It is now Friday without any news. I know several people have been out of the office affecting the approval, so I’m unsure if I should ask for another update or that’s annoying.

    1. dulcinea47*

      Too soon! Wait ’til like, next Tuesday at least. Then you can ask again based on what you’ve been told… but also, you don’t need to. If they had something to tell you they would.

    2. ExtraFewDays*

      I always give them 2-3 extra days before following up asking about status unless there’s some type of external pressure requiring a faster response (for example, getting another offer).

      Good luck!

    3. Qwerty*

      Today is the end of the week, so they aren’t actually late yet. I’d wait until Tuesday morning before reaching out again. Hiring always takes longer than planned and critical people always end up being unavailable at inconvenient times.

  23. Learned Responses*

    I have a mostly good boss who has told me multiple times that I’m an invaluable part of our small organization and that I do great work. I believe he feels that way.

    I come from tech and have been laid off from almost every job I’ve ever had – many times within a year, and even from some contracts when I’ve taken such work. I have predicted my last 7-8 layoffs, but I have also been certain I was getting laid off at times when the signs had started but not fully realized yet (these situations always progressed to layoffs later).

    My current boss asked to speak to me 1-1 Wednesday afternoon and I immediately assumed I was getting laid off. Except I intellectually knew that was ridiculous and I didn’t really expect it to happen the same way I had known in the past. I mostly dismissed it as an active thought pretty quickly. The thought stayed in the back of my head until the call though (which, as expected was definitely not about being laid off).

    I suspect there are some elements of PTSD at play (although I certainly haven’t been diagnosed and am not currently planning to seek out a diagnosis), but even if not it’s clearly a learned response to repetitive negative experience.

    Anyone have tips or tricks for dealing with this type of learned emotional response? Thank you in advance, and please respect that I am not looking to pursue therapy at this time.

    1. LuckySophia*

      You now have a new, valid data point: that an invitation to a 1-on-1 does not equal “layoff.”
      Keep reminding yourself of that data. I suspect, over time you will amass more such data points. As they accumulate, they should start to outweigh the past data points that were layoffs.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Have you asked your boss if they can include a reason/agenda for meetings with you? I’ve worked with a lot of people with histories of layoffs and this is a pretty common ask. Even if you don’t want to ask as an overall thing, you can ask in the moment, too.

      1. Qwerty*

        I’m going to recommend the opposite – get more data points of 1x1s that are positive or neutral. That will help your mind get used to the pattern of talking to your boss out of your usual cycle being normal.

        What I’ve run into with the people who insisted on the agenda for every meeting is that fed into the anxiety. Sometimes you can’t put the reason in the invite, which is why you are requesting a conversation.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          I agree – fill the bucket with proof that meetings aren’t invitations to a layoff. Establish proof that your anxiety is not the truth.

          1. Learned Responses*

            Thanks – I think that’s fair. Fingers crossed it will help. In our case, interestingly, I initiate a lot of our 1-1 discussions when I need info, so that may be part of it. His initiating it on short notice made it feel like a bigger deal.

      2. Learned Responses*

        Thanks. I actually had a general topic, but it was one that leant itself to such thoughts (future plans for X). And in the past they often did a bait and switch or used a general topic so I’m not sure it would help, but I appreciate the suggestion.

    3. peter b*

      How much distress is it causing you? It sounds like you did alright once the call happened and was over. It’s okay to do things scared, recognizing that fear based on a pattern you intellectually know is not relevant to your current situation like it used to be when you worked in tech can happen without meaning you’re in real danger. If you’d like to prioritize reducing the pre-meeting distress, there’s a lot of online resources for self-soothing techniques in the face of anxiety you might find beneficial, and as others mention time and maybe asking your boss to clarify the purpose of future 1:1s will likely help as well.

      1. Learned Responses*

        It wasn’t awful, but I was kind of upset my brain still went there despite the amount of positive feedback I’ve gotten at this position, that I’ve been here for years now, and know I am important to key projects.

    4. 8675309*

      My therapist gave me a sheet called “thought record.” It is a table with these columns, which I fill in when I get hit with any heavy emotional response. A for instance, my boyfriend did not text me, so he’s going to break up with me.

      The columns:
      – SITUATION – My boyfriend did not text me good night or good morning
      – FEELING/RATE – Anxiety/10
      – AUTOMATIC THOUGHT – He’s going to break up with me
      – EVIDENCE IT’S TRUE – He ALWAYS texts me good night or good morning
      – EVIDENCE IT’S NOT TRUE – He brought me flowers three days ago
      – MORE BALANCED THOUGHT – While he could be upset and thinking about ending the relationship, it is more likely he is tired. Also, he does not text with the same vigor as me.
      – FEELING/RATE – Anxiety/5

      I actually write it out on the printed sheet to gave me. The exercise really helps me reframe things and I do it as often as needed to keep myself in a more balanced headspace.

    5. RedinSC*

      Part of this might just also be a bit of human nature. Any time a partner says, “can we talk” people thing – OOOOO, bad news!

      Any time a teacher or manager or principal want to meet, it’s bad news!

      At least that’s where my brain goes, and often it’s not at all. So, do what you can to help calm yourself and believe your boss when they say your work is good!

      1. Learned Responses*

        True. I guess I’d hoped I was comfortable enough in this position that I’d moved past it. Thanks for reminding me some of this is normal for everyone.

    6. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I’d also add, be kind to yourself about this reaction! Almost everyone I’ve ever worked with gets slightly stressed when Boss wants a quick chat. As a people manager, I try to have the convo as soon as possible after flagging that it is needed. I also try to occasionally remind people “see, it’s usually pretty innocuous!” when was something low-key.

      I actually had the “I know it can be tough or anxious to hear the words but a reminder it’s pretty normal and you aren’t going to be scolded because I don’t do that” talk with someone this week and then later the SAME DAY my boss asked me to call him. I immediately thought I was “in trouble” even though there was no evidence for that and I have a good relationship with him in general. Spoiler: it was about an upcoming schedule change.

      I share that story because sometimes it can help to remember that plenty of people have a bit of discomfort in this situation even though it is so often for a very benign reason. Push through it and remind yourself it’s okay to be stressed AND that it will most likely work out.

    7. Bess*

      LuckySophia’s response is great and usually the kind of thing that helps me out of my worrying/mild paranoia.

      I also think just acknowledging that it’s really reasonable to have a fear response given your history, so being gentle with yourself about that response, and then just mildly reminding yourself you’re in a new context with new rules, and the meeting (or whatever the future trigger is) could be something positive! Or something absurd! Remind yourself of the possibilities.

      FWIW, I have never been fired, and meetings like this ALWAYS make me think first that I’m about to be fired. So what you are feeling is extremely normal.

  24. LittleBeans*

    I supervise a small, close knit team. When there was recently the opportunity to redistribute job duties, I consulted with each person about options that were related to work they were already doing and that I thought fit their expressed areas of interest and growth, and then updated job descriptions accordingly. At this time, one of my direct reports, Taylor, took on increased responsibilities at a level that I thought justified a change in working title that sounds more prestigious, even though it was not officially a promotion or job change. Taylor had been doing some of the work that justified the new working title for quite a while already. One of my other direct reports, Alex, is now upset that they didn’t get the opportunity to apply for the new working title. We could also change Alex’s title but that would really just feel like window dressing at this point, and I don’t think would resolve Alex’s feelings about not being offered the option in the first place.

    Part of the problem is that Taylor and Alex have very different work styles. They get along well enough, but their strengths are in very different areas and I think they may sometimes have difficulty recognizing the strengths that the other brings to our team. The current situation makes it seem like I value Taylor’s work more than Alex’s, which I don’t think it is true — it’s just that Taylor’s strengths are more suited to the specific job duties that prompted this change.

    I am not sure how to respond or proceed. This wasn’t a new job being created (we checked with HR) and didn’t require being posted for open recruitment. From having worked with my whole team for several years, I felt confident that Taylor had the skills and experience to be the right person for this change. At the same time, Alex is a great employee, and I don’t want them to continue to feel demoralized.

    1. Sloanicota*

      If you truly value Alex’s experience just as much, can you craft a title with Alex that feels more prestigious but also accurate to their strengths, and discuss it with them? You may also need to clarify the other title isn’t really a raise or promotion, Alex may assume it is.

    2. Annony*

      I think you need to acknowledge the situation and then talk about Alex’s goals and what you can do to help them achieve those goals. You gave Taylor an opportunity that you did not give Alex. That wasn’t the wrong decision but it was a decision you made. So explain why Alex was unable to apply (Taylor already doing most of the work, the additional tasks fitting Taylor’s skillset and interests better, this is not a new position). Also, presumably Alex did not express interest in taking on those tasks when you met. Then talk about what a promotion path looks like for Alex. What are the potential options. What will they have to do to be seriously considered? If you want to avoid Alex being demoralized, give them something to work towards so they don’t feel stuck.

    3. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Is there a path forward for Alex to get a more prestigious working title? It seems Alex wants that.

      1. LittleBeans*

        Yes, I think this is it. Alex knew about the changing responsibilities in advance and didn’t indicate to me that they were interested in the specific things that Taylor was taking on. They only let me know that they were upset after I announced the change in title.

        We’ve discussed it and I do think there is a pathway to changing Alex’s working title, either immediately or based on some major changes I expect to come in the next year or so. But it’s watered down by having multiple people with the more prestigious sounding titles — like you know how some places just call everyone a Director even their entry level employees?

        1. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

          I’m confused because it sounded like Taylor got Prestigious Title for doing Prestigious Title work. It’s not an entry level employee is a “Director” situation.

          If Alex can do Prestigious Title work and there’s a path for that, how does that water down the title earned?

        2. Annony*

          I think you have some cognitive dissonance that is making it difficult to decide what to do. You cannot say that you value Alex’s and Taylor’s contributions equally and that their work is on the same level while also arguing that Taylor deserves a more prestigious title than Alex. It is ok if Taylor and Alex are not equals but at some point you either need to acknowledge that while both are great employees, Taylor is working on higher level tasks than Alex or give Alex the title bump to be equal if he does actually deserve that.

          1. Tio*

            Yeah, I’m here too. I’ve seen people promoted here without a posting but that’s it – it’s a promotion because they have new duties or a review has shown the duties they are doing are above the level they were at (commonly include niche skills, duties that can only be covered by someone higher level when they’re out, etc.)

            You can’t just inflate Alex’s title because he’s mad he didn’t get promoted. You have to be very clear what duties go with what titles and what level of skill an performance they require. Not doing that is *how* you end up with watered down titles.

        3. HonorBox*

          It seems like you’re going to have to manage Alex’s feeling a little bit, while also providing some gentle, but direct feedback. Taylor was not given the change in title or responsibilities in a vacuum. Alex didn’t indicate interest in taking those on. I think I would tell Alex a couple of things:
          1. This is not a promotion for Taylor. It is a change in title to reflect the change in the scope of Taylor’s role.
          2. Alex did not indicate interest in taking on the new changes, and Taylor did. It isn’t a great look to now be upset because you didn’t speak up when the opportunity was presented.
          3. There is a pathway for Alex’s title to change, but that isn’t immediate, and will come with some changes to Alex’s work, as well.

          I don’t think changing titles is watering things down if you’re doing it with thought and it is tied to a change in work. You probably wouldn’t give your entry-level data entry person the title of Director of Strategic Number Accumulation, but if there’s solid reason for someone having a more prestigious title and you’re judicious in making those changes, that’s not going to water down others.

          1. LittleBeans*

            I had a conversation with Alex that covered exactly your 3 points. I think #1 and #3 helped, but I’m worried that point #2 didn’t come across as I intended. Alex’s response was along the lines of, a job was never posted so I didn’t know it was an option to express interest about. I did have conversations in advance about what each person was interested in doing or changing, but I didn’t say that any particular change might or might not justify a title change (that honestly wasn’t part of my thinking at the time, it evolved later).

        4. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

          ” But it’s watered down by having multiple people with the more prestigious sounding titles…”

          Denying someone a deserved opportunity based on this arbitrary line of thinking is bad management, I’m afraid.

  25. Annony*

    How long should I wait to ask about the offer letter after I have been given a verbal offer? I was given an amazing verbal offer yesterday morning and was told that an offer letter would be emailed by the recruiter in the next 24 hours. I haven’t received it yet. Do I wait until Monday to follow up? I would be contacting the recruiter directly to ask about timeline and next steps to make sure I did not misunderstand not just asking where the letter is.

    1. CTT*

      I think wait at least until end of the day – whoever is working in the letter probably has Friday in their mind as the deadline, not 24 hours after your call.

  26. Alexander Graham Yell*

    I think we’re going to have to let somebody on our team go pretty soon, and it really sucks. It’s not a job where he can be successful, we’ve worked with him for months to try to help him reach the necessary standard and he’s not able to sustain improvement. All signs point to parting ways being the right choice, but on a personal level it’s miserable. (I’m not even the one who will have to make the decision/have the conversation, but I’m currently managing his main project so my feedback carries the most weight.) It’s the holidays, he’s just gotten married…I know it’s the right move and it won’t happen without us having worked hard with him to try to avoid it, but ugh.

    1. Sloanicota*

      Advocating for early notice and generous severance and not fighting unemployment is the kindest thing you can do here. Maybe this employee will even be relieved to be out of a situation where they’re not successful with some breathing room to regroup.

      1. Alexander Graham Yell*

        None of those are things I’m in charge of, but they’re all things I can advocate for – thank you for the ideas!

    2. Jules the First*

      Having just let someone go today, I’ll pass on the advice from my wise HR: the day it stops feeling crappy to let someone go is the day you should stop managing people.

      Commiserations…

    3. Daphne*

      If you have not already said things along the lines of, “if your work does meet the necessary standard, we will have to let you go” and “your work is not meeting the necessary standard to keep you on here,” then start using those words or some variation. The key is the “we will have to let you go” and “to keep you on here.” I’m sure he knows he isn’t meeting the standard. Make sure he knows his job is on the line.

      1. Alexander Graham Yell*

        The problem is I’m not his direct manager, but I know that all of those have been said and he has been on a PIP for a while (I have the document, I know what I’m keeping an eye out for and have been in regular contact with his manager about his performance). He’s definitely aware that his job is on the line and had made big improvements that had me feeling hopeful but last week it became clear he’s not able to sustain the change.

  27. CherryBlossom*

    I recently started a job that is several levels above my experience; think an entry level clerk hired as Head of Accounting. I was upfront in the interview about my experience and was clear that I didn’t fit a lot of their qualifications, but they still hired me. I would’ve turned it down, but I need the money.

    Now I’m floundering, stressed to dread, and I know I’m going to crash and burn. I cant afford to not be working, or else I’d quit and focus on the job hunt.

    So my question is; how do I survive a job I am not qualified for, for as long as possible, so I can keep food on table and my family fed?

    1. M2*

      Has your new job offer training? Asked to be trained by someone there and by a program or some kind of class. We had someone come to our organization who we saw had some gaps, so HR and someone in leadership team found an online program and then an in-person development conference for them to attend. It didn’t fill all the gaps, but the person got better and then someone extra was hired to offset some other aspects of the role.

      If your company is not supporting you in this way, then can you ask colleagues for assistance? I would be working but then apply for jobs and for your network at night and on weekends if you’re worried that you will need to leave.

      If you don’t do something right and it has lasting consequences (like accounting) just make sure you double check or ask a colleague or your manager you trust to look over your work. They clearly saw something in you to hire you so also if it isn’t something lasting if you make a mistake then just Fake it til you make it.

      More than a decade ago that happened to me and I was so scared and worried and stressed that I eventually told them I didn’t have the qualifications and quit. I look back and I didn’t even give myself a chance and should have asked my team for assistance. I didn’t even give myself 3-6 months to improve I quit after a month (granted it was a stressful environment). I regret not giving myself a chance and letting the fear and negativity get in. I look back and realize I could have done that job and done a great job, if only I took some time to believe in myself, attend meetings and listen, and do some training on my own at night. A lot of it was learn on the job, which was scary for me. Fun fact: I bumped into my old boss from that role 5 years later as he was working on something my organization was too. I did a great job, he told me I did a great job, and we had a quick conversation about what happened. He understood, didn’t hold it against me and told me he knew I had it in me. So it was nice to close that chapter of my life.

      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        I don’t know, I work adjacent to accounting, and maybe this is a high-regulation state thing, but there are all sorts of filings, fees, taxes, audits by random departments, etc. that come in that no one in HR or something is going to know about, in order to turn it into a training module.

        CherryBlossom* – I’m concerned for you. Is there someone you can be upfront with? Maybe take a demotion if one is available? Do you want to be more specific with what you’re struggling with here?

        1. CherryBlossom*

          My main issue is that this role requires a lot of initiative and being able to role with vague guidelines, and I’ve never needed to build those types of skills. In most of my previous roles, I was told what to do and how to do it, and all that mattered was that it was done. Being in charge isn’t something I can learn from a training module (I have tried). I’ve been fired for lack of initiative and inability to work independently in the past, and I can already tell my current manager is unimpressed with my constant questions and need for clarification.

          There’s no demotion available, and I am still job hunting for positions closer to what I’m good at. Between then and now, I really just need advice on how to bluster my way into not being fired before the new year.

          1. Busy Middle Manager*

            *accounting adjacent so my advice isn’t 100% spot on, but: stop thinking about booking individual transactions and doing reports as they are requested. Start thinking about what things you might be asked and ask yourself to do them. You already know at some level what needs to get done, even subconsciously. Some ideas:
            1) Look up upcoming tax payment deadlines and make sure you have the reports in order to know how much to pay, and that you have cash to pay them. Are the reports all accurate? Audit them
            2) Is there an annual budget process you support? Start putting together reports on how much so and so department spent YTD, analyze whether those expenses are likely to occur or go up, ask departments if they have new expenses coming. Do you see any problems? Is someone over or under-spending?
            3) Are there any issues with the software(s) you use? Make a list, prioritize, see if you can find solutions or have your software provider make improvements
            Any audits coming up? Do a mock audit beforehand and make sure stuff is in order and documented
            4) any ongoing issues with payments or expenses you can work on? Someone requesting a bunch of expenses be paid last minute, months after they’re incurred? Maybe you can find someone to help them file them monthly?
            5) Do you have a quarterly and annual calendar? If not? Make one. Start doing all of the reports beforehand and looking for stuff that doesn’t make sense or where debits/credits 0. Is it a real problem or a software problem? Are you waiting for money to come in? Was something double booked? Did you forget to book something? Did some things get applied to the wrong cost bucket.
            6) Start prepping for your annual audit. Is everything documented and have an attachment where one is needed?
            7) finance overlap: this may be off base in your role, but I’ve worked in medium-sized companies where you could find and chime in on things like this: anyone overusing a high interest CC? Are you borrowing too much or too little money? Can you get a better interest rate out there? Or do you have too much cash sitting there? Any ideas how to deploy it?

            1. CherryBlossom*

              I appreciate the advice and the breakdown, but I feel the need to clarify that I’m not actually working in accounting. I meant that as an example of getting a position that’s normally multiple levels ahead in a standard career path. Unfortunately I can’t give any more concrete details without risking where I work.

              1. Paint N Drip*

                I think you can use the basis of this comment to find what you need – change your thinking to be looking ahead. There are definitely going to be things you miss since you don’t know what you’re really doing, but if you can get a basic outline that should help a ton – get a grasp on the big dates applicable to the biz/industry, get a grasp on the big projects or concepts you’ll be dealing with, develop a plan for the things you know about (this may include a ton of research, that’s okay, make that plan and build a little confidence one page at a time)

                This is a big challenge! I can definitely feel your stress, and I totally understand (you told them your limitations and they still threw you to the lions! WTF!!!) but I think you can make it work to keep the paychecks coming. What’s your biggest struggle, specifically? Is it the planning (having initiative starts with having a plan, IMO) or the confidence or something else?

                I’d also recommend trying to find a mentor, even if you don’t want to stay at this role specifically. I’d personally be looking at the industry at large (others who work higher up in alpaca grooming) AND/OR for others in the same position at unrelated businesses (‘head of accounting’ at teacup depot) – I wouldn’t be seeking someone at the company you’re at now, you want to pick the brain of someone who knows how the job works within the framework of the industry even if they don’t understand how YOUR exact position works, you need some big-picture thinking

                We all have different skills and have a place in the world, don’t let this experience dull your shine. Our office uses the KOLBE test, and I’m rated very high on initiative (just start!) but low on follow-up (who cares about the last few details… my boss lol) so I could recommend that to you, but it seems like you have a grasp on your strengths and weaknesses. I genuinely think you can build skills and confidence in this job, but in the future I hope you can find a more comfortable fit

    2. Name (Required)*

      Ask as many questions as you can, take copious notes and refer to them, ask for resources, and do the best you can. They hired you knowing your experience, so they shouldn’t expect you to hit the ground running.

    3. Daphne*

      Have you been candid about where you are struggling? They knew you didn’t have the qualifications they desired. It is reasonable that they should be helping you along with the things you don’t know.
      Learn to be ok with struggling. Learn to be ok with learning a new thing at a time and continuing to be bad at all the other things you haven’t learned yet. Keep using that “yet” word-“I can’t do this YET.” Slowly all the “I can’t do this yet” things will turn into “I can do this one now.” Be okay with it taking a while.

    4. Bitte Meddler*

      Are the things you were told to do in previous roles applicable to this role? Then go do those things.

      Also, if they’re applicable and were just a piece of a larger puzzle, think about what the other pieces were, even if they were handled by coworkers.

      And a trick that works for me is to pretend I’m my own business owner. The department I’m in is 100% mine to do with as I please. What would it look like if I were successful? What concrete things would I have accomplished / crossed off a list? What are things that absolutely have to get done or else tons of other things will fail? [Do those first.]

      Since you’re looking for other jobs, give yourself permission to “play act” at this one. If you were an actor and were hired to play a person in your role, what would the part look like?

  28. Peanut Person*

    I hope this doesn’t break unspoken rules, either of AAM or the industry… but this curious mind wants to know:

    for those who are/were librarians, I recently learned a a few things:
    libraries pay upwards of $100k per month for Hoopla, Libby, Kanopy, etc.
    Libby e-books and audiobooks have a limited number of checkouts before they are no longer in the system. So basically libraries don’t buy them, but they are renting them.
    Physical books are actually MORE cost than if an individual were to buy new from a bookstore. (Like new hardcovers cost about $28 now, but library copies cost more than that).

    Is this stuff true? do you have other facts that would surprise people?

    also I was wondering about how much it costs the library per inter-library loan? I figured that there might be a cost for shipping, but is there more? I’m about to start using this system a bit, but would it be better to suggest more titles for purchase or ask for them loaned?

    1. Paris Geller*

      libraries pay upwards of $100k per month for Hoopla, Libby, Kanopy, etc.
      E-material platforms are very expensive for libraries, but I personally don’t know of any library spending $100k PER MONTH on those platforms! Possible if it’s one of the biggest systems in the nation–most platforms like that have tiers that libraries pay depending on their service population.

      Libby e-books and audiobooks have a limited number of checkouts before they are no longer in the system. So basically libraries don’t buy them, but they are renting them.
      True. We either get licenses for the number of checkouts or for a set number of years, and they’re very expensive. It’s not uncommon to pay $100+ for an eaudio-book for two years.

      Physical books are actually MORE cost than if an individual were to buy new from a bookstore. (Like new hardcovers cost about $28 now, but library copies cost more than that).
      In my experience, false. We buy hardbacks and we get a discount. Most hardbacks I buy cost around $15. Now, a lot of vendors will sell library binding editions that are reinforced to hold up to more repeated wear, and those can be more expensive. My system personally doesn’t use those very often for adult materials (what I buy) because the cost isn’t worth it since we can get a good number of circulations out of an item before it falls apart most of the time. We’re more likely to buy library binding for children’s materials because kids tend to be rougher on their books.

      I was wondering about how much it costs the library per inter-library loan? I figured that there might be a cost for shipping, but is there more?
      We have to pay for the ILL platform and shipping, but we also get some reimbursement back from the state at the end of the year since it’s a state-wide system. Generally, if you’re asking for obscure or niche items, it’s better to request through ILL. If you’re requesting more popular fiction titles that others are likely to check out, it might be better to suggest a purchase request.

      1. Paris Geller*

        Looking at this, I realize I should have said “it depends” on physical items being more expensive! It definitely can be, but not necessarily.

        I’m also not a selector for media (DVDs, etc.) and never have been, so I have no idea about how the pricing works for that.

      2. Cloud Wrangler*

        My system is seriously cutting back Hoopla. The cost was going to go from $30k per month to $50k per month. That’s just for one system.

      3. Peanut Person*

        Thank you!

        I think I saw the $100k+ on Reddit, so it’s possible I missed other relevant context. I appreciate your note about the binding (adult vs kids books) – I wouldn’t have thought about that element.

        It is interesting that ILL is state-wide… I recently got a book (living in Arkansas) that came from Louisiana. Maybe we are tapped into a regional network?

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Hoooooo boy. The answer to so many of these things is It Depends on tons and tons of factors, and it’s going to be different for every library, state, and consortium. Based on my own experience in academic libraries across states in the South and Mid Atlantic, these are my reactions.

      A. Kanopy is particularly egregious in the spend category as evidenced by the 2019-2020 issues written about the New York Public Library, but the vast majority of libraries are not spending 100K a month (or even a year). The biggest problem with Kanopy is that the library doesn’t know how much it’s going to cost. There are different ways to configure Kanopy, but a library could set it up so that all content is potentially accessible. The license spend isn’t triggered until someone views a Kanopy film (defined as watching more than 30 seconds, if I remember correctly), so it’s possible to get All The Views triggered at once and bam, budget blown. However, many libraries make it so you have to request a specific film and it doesn’t trigger automatically so they’re better able to keep track of the budget. Most content in Kanopy ranges from $150-$300. It is more expensive that what a normal streaming/DVD purchase would be for citizens because it includes Public Performance Rights.
      B. If it comes in a package, database, or from a vendor, libraries are almost always renting year-to-year rather than buying outright (with some exceptions – primarily primary source databases). However, some libraries purchase ebooks outside of packages and these are generally permanently “owned”. Depending on how a library catalog and discovery is set up, it can sometimes be impossible to tell from the user side which one it is.
      C. For my library experience, this one is… kinda true. We don’t get slapped with a “library upcharge”, but we’re often working through specific companies that sell directly to libraries, rather than something like Amazon. Sticker prices tend to remain more stable (unlike Amazon deals of the day/week/month/whatever fluctuates their fancy), although we do occasionally get discounts and are often purchasing materials tax-free. Generally speaking though, it’s not much more per book.
      D. ILL also really depends. Are you getting physical materials? Some libraries and consortiums have shipping agreements in place for specific locations to make it cheaper, but if you’re outside of those locations it can be pretty expensive, around $30-$50, more for delicate, oversized, rare, or weird resources. Digital materials? There may be extensive hidden copyright costs that the library covers that you don’t see. Again, many libraries have agreements in place to make this cheaper (for example, my academic library can borrow from the same journal up to five times in a year before we incur costs). And since ILL is dependent on the lending library, that lending library may have additional policies that they’d like you to follow, even if your borrowing library doesn’t.

      As far as if which one would be better, ask your local librarians! They’ll have a much better sense of the hidden features of their budget and what would make most sense and be most likely to be approved.

      1. Peanut Person*

        Thank you!

        For ILL – yes, I am getting physical materials. I didn’t even know you could request digital ILL copies! So far, I’ve gotten one book and my next requests will be books. I have also considered DVDs, although this is less likely. All of my current requests are fun reading – I haven’t even considered academic journals, to be honest!

        The Kanopy part makes me wonder… this platform doesn’t have much available to my tastes, so I wonder if my library has a limited selection there.

    3. LibrarianAdjacent*

      Hi – can’t answer for all libraries, but I can tell you about my library’s situation (I work at a public library):

      -we do pay quite a bit for the digital content services. The high cost is because it’s per use (we pay every time someone uses the material), and there’s currently no way to cap it.
      -we have Libby, and we have a collection of physical audiobooks on CD. I don’t know much about the Libby collection, but we do try to get the more popular titles in our own physical collection.
      -we actually get considerable discounts on physical books, because we order from a supplier that specializes in libraries. The only “markup” I see on physical copies is for large-type books (which use up more physical materials and aren’t usually discounted), and children’s nonfiction books, where a book that would be a paperback in a bookstore is given a “library use” hard cover, to make it stand up to frequent use.
      -interlibrary loan differs from state to state, and even from library to library. We are part of a county-wide consortium (which we pay into), as well as a state-wide interlibrary system (which we don’t pay into). It may be a good idea to ask your local library’s staff about the titles you’d like to use, and how they could help you in getting them.

      Hope this helps!

      1. Peanut Person*

        Yes, it does help. Thank you! I’m happy to hear from you (along with a couple other commenters) that there are some discounts for the books. It makes sense to me that there are some instances (as you said, a specific hardcover edition) where there’s an upcharge…except it’s understandable when it’s a specific reason/purpose.

    5. KatCardigans*

      I can’t speak to all of this, but it’s certainly not always true that libraries pay more for physical books. There’s a special type of binding that usually costs a bit more (literally called library binding—it’s more durable, so the idea is that you are getting your money’s worth in the long run), and there is a cost to processing a book so that it can be put on the shelf (wrapping in plastic, putting on the labels and any security tags, getting the thing into the computer, etc.). Some libraries do that in-house; others don’t. I am at a school library, and we rarely pay more than standard list price for the book, but we do pay our book supplier for wrapping, labeling, and cataloging our books according to the structure we have set up—it saves a LOT of time on our end, so that is well worth it. When I worked at a public library in a neighboring county, I know for a fact that some of our books were bought at wholesale pricing.

      Ebooks and audiobooks can be very expensive for libraries, yes. 100k/month does not sound accurate for most library systems, though—that’s over a million dollars a year! My local library system’s budget is around 12 million a year, and 3/4 of that goes to salaries and benefits. We have Hoopla and Overdrive, and while I don’t know the current figures, there’s simply no way they are paying that much for it. Also, libraries can and do add restrictions to stuff like Hoopla to make is more financially feasible—you can block titles that are especially expensive, and you can restrict the number of checkouts your patrons can have per month. My library system did that recently—we’re now at 3 checkouts/month on Hoopla.

      ILL costs vary. A couple of things to consider about stuff like ILL: a) it’s probably already budgeted for. If your system has caps on how many you can request, that’s why, and b) libraries want circulation of all types! Use their services so they know which ones are working out for their patrons! You could certainly ask a librarian at your local library about ILLs vs. a purchase request—especially if the book you want seems like something that other patrons in your area might be likely to read, vs. something super niche—but as a patron, don’t feel bad about using the services the library provides.

      I would also note that research databases are extremely expensive, although public libraries and schools often have access through state consortiums and such, so it’s not necessarily coming out of the library budget, but it’s certainly a concern for academic libraries. At my private school, our database costs are several times the cost of what we spend on books and other materials per year.

      1. Peanut Person*

        Thank you! I never even thought about the labeling and packaging. It makes me wonder… the old area I lived in would have a specific “in cataloguing” status, and an item could stay there for 2 weeks at a time. I wonder if they were doing in-house, because in my new area, a book can be a new release and on the shelf immediately.

        The limitations make sense. I think Kanopy is 18 tickets (with an item averaging 3 tickets) and Hoopla is 6 borrows per month. Maybe I mixed those two up, but either way, the limitations make sense. I’m not really into ebooks or audiobooks, so I don’t know if Libby has a cap or not.

        And thank you for the note about not feeling bad to use the services :)

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’ve worked in academic, special collections and public libraries. Here’s my hot takes-

      libraries pay upwards of $100k per month for Hoopla, Libby, Kanopy, etc. —  Depends on the vendor and most e-resources are subscription, but some are permanent purchase (at least in academics) and pricing is often done by year for packages. I’d be shocked if a single library had a 100K monthly cost for any of these, unless it’s like New York Public and covering millions of people. Generally, their tiers work by population of users.

      Libby e-books and audiobooks have a limited number of checkouts before they are no longer in the system. So basically libraries don’t buy them, but they are renting them. — Ebooks are usually licensed (though not always). Consider that this is why libraries are fighting with publishers over digital lending. It’s not out of spite, it’s because the costs of these things are rising at a rate that is astronomical. The science databases are the worst. (I’m looking at you Chemical Abstracts…)

      Physical books are actually MORE cost than if an individual were to buy new from a bookstore. —
      Not in my experience. We get a 30% discount from our standard vendor and yes, I buy a lot of specialized stuff from Europe that costs an arm and a leg. But for normal titles, the library bindings (if you get them) are slightly more, but physical books tend to run cheaper because of discounts. Rarely do they cost more than they’d cost a consumer.

      I was wondering about how much it costs the library per inter-library loan? I figured that there might be a cost for shipping, but is there more? — USPS offers Library Mail to libraries, museums, etc to ship to each other at a discounted rate. So, there’s that. There’s also just agreements among libraries to share costs, so in the state I work in, the smaller rural public libraries don’t pay for the larger libraries to ship them books- we do it as a public service. Because of the uniquely rural area I’m in, we also will send books directly to people’s homes at no cost to them. Packaging is always recycled.

      The thing about libraries is nothing is free. Nothing. Everything is prepaid for. So, when you advocate for your local library (and I hope you will) remember that it costs money to provide the services that you value to the community. We’re here to help and we want to help, but our costs tend to be hidden. So when folks say, “It’s amazing you do all this for free” just remind them that it is prepaid for, not free.

      My fun library fact: Libraries didn’t use to be free. In the early days, they were subscription based. So, when you think about the amazing public library system in the USA, think about how remarkable it is that people decided that access to information shouldn’t be limited to people who can subscribe. That’s just really cool.

      1. Peanut Person*

        Thank you!

        I do like your final comments about the funding. One of the biggest reasons that I don’t mind paying local taxes is because I’m obsessed with the library, and I think it’s weird when people don’t use the library.

        I didn’t realize that the digital lending was an ongoing battle, but I can’t say I’m surprised. I’m the type of person who might check out a book and return it the next week because I got three pages in and didn’t like it. I would hate to have the library burdened with these costs if I was doing this on digital materials. (I heavily prefer physical books anyway, so I have no guilt about doing this with already-purchased physical books.)

        1. KathyG*

          Libby usually offers a “Read a Sample” on ebooks; it’s usually enough to decide whether I’m interested in continuing. Likewise, there is also a “Listen to a Sample” function for digital audiobooks, however those are never longer than 5 minutes.

    7. Morning Reader*

      The point about ILL: often selectors will use ILL requests to trigger purchases for the library, for example, 3 or more requests for a title will automatically result in request for purchase. So, whether the library buys or borrows the title you request is built into the system and you might not have to specify how you would like to get it. You can ask your local librarian how they handle requests but figure they will decide to buy or not based on demand and their other criteria.

      1. Peanut Person*

        This is a good point! I know that they collect stats on all usage, but I wasn’t sure if there was any policy like this. It makes sense to me.

  29. Mad Scientist*

    Ladies! What’s everyone doing for morning routines before work these days? Especially if you work in person rather than remote? Do you have a different routine for everyday vs. important meetings? Do you go to work in a full face of expensive makeup, totally bare faced, or somewhere in between?

    Let’s share tips, tricks, favorite products, etc!

    2. 8675309*

      No make up most of the time; eyebrow pencil, a little color and mascara when I want to give my coworkers a treat. haha

      Of course, I have never been much into make up and do not “do” my hair (I do not even own a blow dryer despite having hair down to the middle of my back).

      Re: products – I love E.L.F. Women-owned. Super into purpose. They don’t test on animals. VERY inexpensive. Otherwise, Cerave for my skin care, mostly.

    3. Strive to Excel*

      I don’t have a routine but would love recommendations on how to do makeup when you don’t like the feel of things on your face! It’s not even a question of skin irritation, just Face Sensations Bad.

      1. MsM*

        What specifically sets you off? Heavy? Sticky? Being able to feel literally anything? (Regardless, I think you’re going to want to look for products that are lightweight and dry down quickly if they’re liquid/creams.)

      2. Mad Scientist*

        I can be a bit sensitive to this too, or at least similar issues (e.g. mascara makes me feel like my top and bottom eyelashes are always sticking together and it drives me crazy). Do you feel the same way about skincare products like cleansers and moisturizers as well? I use tinted moisturizer instead of foundation, which you might find more tolerable than other makeup. It also helps if I apply it shortly after washing my face so that my brain kinda registers it as part of washing my face.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Seconding the tinted moisturizer. I got the Clinique “Moisture Surge Sheertint Hydrator Broad Spectrum SPF 25 Tinted Moisturizer” maybe six months ago and I don’t mind wearing it as someone who generally hates wearing foundation. I don’t wear it super often, but when I do it’s tolerable for me at least.

      3. effy*

        I suggest trying with just concealer, and a lightweight one with a more dewy finish. The brand Kosas has a really good one that feels like nothing.

        Otherwise, the literal only foundation I can wear is the Rare Beauty foundation, because it doesn’t irritate my skin or feel heavy on my face. (Rare Beauty is Selena Gomez’s brand, and she has lupus like me, so I’ve wondered if that’s why her makeup is so good for sensitive skin!)

        You can also try skin tints or any foundation that has the word “serum” in it–those won’t feel like much. Another option: a glowy base with very little coverage. Expensive: Charlotte Tilbury Flawless Filter. Inexpensive: Elf Halo Glow. I feel like these don’t give me any coverage, but some people like it for that.

        Sincerely,
        a no makeup-makeup girly

    4. Panicked*

      I get up, shower, brush my teeth, have coffee, etc… no matter what schedule I’m working. On my remote days, I just get dressed casually, no makeup. On in office days, I’m in full-face makeup. I’ve been loving lip stains lately, as they wear off nicely and I don’t have to reapply more than once during the day.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        I typically wear a full face on my in-office days and no makeup on my WFH days as well, but lately I’ve been feeling like those are two extremes and I want to find more a middle ground. But whenever I do makeup that’s less than a full face, it just doesn’t look quite right! I wish I could be brave enough to go into the office bare faced, I know plenty of people who do, but I do feel like it affects the way I’m perceived and then that affects my confidence. I guess there’s no way around that though.

    5. In the middle*

      I’m a middle aged teacher (40s cis/het/white lady). I’ve been doing the same thing for a millions years, so don’t look to me for inovation but my everyday is:

      1. under eye brightener: Maybelline Instant Age Rewind Eraser (foundation brush to smooth)
      2. cream blush from cheeks to temple: essence | Baby Got Blush (30 | Rosé All Day) -beauty blender or fingers to blend
      3. Powder- all over but the blush area to set under eye and even out the rest
      Chanel ULTRA LE TEINT Ultrawear All-Day Comfort Flawless Finish Compact Foundation (studpid expensive. worth it)-with an old Dior Kabuki brush
      4.gently fill brows with an e.l.f. eyebrow powder. I have big brows (think Brooke Shields) and love them
      5. Black eyeliner-top lid only- Stila Stay All Day eyeliner
      6. Mascara if I remember-still don’t have a brand I love, I hop around.
      7. lipstick sometimes, but I usually get sick of it after half an hour.

    6. Ruby Tuesday*

      I’m on-site 3 days a week, and most of the time I am by far the most “dressed up” person in the office. I have too many cute, work appropriate clothes to let languish in my closet. But it depends on the day too. One day I’ll have black jeans, black heels, a blazer, cami, and red lipstick. The next I might not be in the mood for that and I’ll wear cargo pants, t shirt, cardi, and Birkenstock clogs. Always some make-up, though – at least brows, mascara, lip gloss.
      I was told at a previous job, I’m usually giving Nordstrom vibes, but then randomly will show up looking like I’m going to the gym (think Lululemon type stuff). Sounds accurate lol

      1. Medium Sized Manager*

        I have started going in person semi-regularly and feel like this office is more “corporate” than what I am used to. I tend to wear black linen pants, white Dr. Scholls sneakers, and some variation of a sweater cardigan, but I feel underdressed.

        Any tips or recommendations for dressing up a little on a budget?

        1. NaoNao*

          Second hand but specifically late 90s early 2000s work brands like Ellen Tracy or Jones New York. Brands back then were making silk knit mock neck tops for officewear and tri-acetate pants that wear like iron. I also love Lafayette 148–I get mine from ThredUp where it can go very low (it’s otherwise an $$ brand) and pick items that are a bit conservative and not “fun” or trendy.
          Linen pants and slip on shoes will always read casual, so I’d consider upgrading to more structured pants and shoes–a loafer and a trouser in the same color (maybe a burgundy, toast, chocolate, or other non-black color) would go a long way to jazzing up an otherwise casual outfit.

          1. Medium Sized Manager*

            Thank you! Linens and a high-necked t-shirt are “formal” in my current workplace, so I am still re-calibrating a little. The shoes are not quite slip on (I’d put them on a dressier side of sneakers), but I think the lack of structure is what is making me feel underdressed.

    7. Jessica Ganschen*

      I’ve never been much of a makeup person, so that remains the same, especially since I’m still masking. Pretty much the only thing I do besides basic hygiene is use a little leave-in conditioner and finger curl a couple locks of hair that frame my face. However, I’d love to hear some recommendations for chapstick/lip balm/lotion. Winter really takes a toll on my hands and lips.

      1. MsM*

        Lanolips is good if you need something multiuse and really heavy duty, but I think Burt’s Bees is a nice drugstore option.

      2. winter*

        For lips, the thing that gets me through the winter is the Laneige lip mask – you put some on before you sleep and wake up with hydrated lips. Also I swear by Eucerin for lotion – basic, plain, I use a three on their rating scale.

      3. KathyG*

        I swear by pure shea butter for my lips. You can buy it in cute but pricy little tins from L’Occitane, or in jars from “natural” food or vitamin stores. On really bad days, I’ll add a thin top layer of Vaseline.

        1. KathyG*

          A few things I should have added:
          1. Our winters are VERY dry.
          2. Be sure to take a good sniff before you buy – – not everyone loves the scent.
          3. If you have allergies to latex or tree nuts, shea butter probably isn’t for you.

    8. 40+*

      Well, (I’m 40+), my hairdresser convinced me to try to wash my hair every other day, so, I”ll blow out day one, and then wrap it in a t-shirt to shower and do dry shampoo and vertical waves day two so my hair is always ‘done’, regardless of my day. Saves time on day two, which I like. A few years ago when I felt I needed to up my routine, I watched a bunch of Dominique Sachse youtubes and got some great tips there (she was a news broadcaster and shares TV ready tips & makeup reccs). I really like Tarte face tape when I need more coverage, otherwise I just use IT Cosmetics CC+ Powder. Urban decay liner & eyeshadow, Honest Beauty Bright eyes tinted eye cream and Tarte mascara everyday. I don’t really change up my hair/makeup, it’s more that I’ll wear more formal clothes for more important meeting days. Hope that helps!

    9. Pam Adams*

      Student-facing higher ed. Bare-faced, campus polo or t-shirt, black pants. On wth days I might stay in a house dress.

    10. Pentapus*

      I do nothing special. I usually shower at night, so not in the morning. no makeup. I sometimes bike to work, sometimes drive. so I’m conscious of picking the right clothes for the right situation. sometimes I bring different clothes to change into, sometimes I throw the skirt from my drawer. I’d wear cute clothes more often, but experience tells me no one notices.

    11. JMR*

      Also a scientist! I feel weird with a completely bare face (we can unpack that some other time) so I do wear light make-up, but I’m not all that talented with make-up, so I keep it basic: A powder foundation, a powder blush, a neutral-ish eye shadow (my go-to is Bare Minerals in the shade Bare Skin, which is sort of a peachy nude, but it does have a bit of shimmer to it), and mascara. I don’t do complicated eyeshadow looks; it’s one color all over the lid. I’m in my mid-40s and I have noticed that most of the younger RAs around here don’t wear eyeshadow, even though they will wear foundation, blush, and eyeliner.

      I’ve never been sure whether make-up actually does anything to enhance my appearance or whether it simply makes me look “finished.” Like, does my eyeshadow actually my eyes look bigger and brighter, or does it just make me look like a person who is wearing eyeshadow? I don’t know, but it’s not a time-consuming or expensive regimen and old habits are hard to break, so here we are.

    12. KatCardigans*

      Between a toddler, a pregnancy, and no such thing as WFH, I am almost always bare-faced. There is simply no time in the morning! I brush my teeth and hair and sometimes do a braid or bun, and that is about it. For important days I will put in my contacts and slap on some mascara.

    13. Medium Sized Manager*

      I have never enjoyed wearing makeup and mainly WFH, but I do put on a light face for in office days since it’s not people I work with regularly. I use the Charlotte Tilbury Sheer Glow Tint Hydrating Foundation Stick + Milk Hydrating Concealer with Hyaluronic Acid with some light mascara/setting spray or powder. It gives me a very natural no makeup makeup look and it literally takes like 4 minutes tops.

      Hair wise, nothing too wild, but I do pin it back if I will be speaking or have a more important meeting because I play with my hair when I’m nervous.

      For reference, I am mid-30s, not customer facing, and my industry is pretty mixed with men and women.

      1. Medium Sized Manager*

        Also meant to add: I have spent the last few years focusing more on skincare so that my face doesn’t “need” makeup to look smooth or unblemished. I’m a big fan of First Aid Beauty products for that.

    14. Unkempt Flatware*

      Wake up, spinal stretches in bed, dogs up and outside, feed cat, start coffee (it’s a stove top percolator), shower while coffee brews, feed dogs, blow out hair in sections so I don’t sweat, dress, and leave. Only occasionally do I have time and energy for make up. But my hair is always blown out. I typically watch Trixie and Katya while I get ready each morning.

      1. Annie Edison*

        Can I ask how long it takes you to blow dry your hair? I am so confused by people who do daily blowouts. I have lots of thick hair and even now when it’s only just past my shoulders, when I wash and blowdry it takes me 45 min to an hour start to finish. Are people really spending that much time every morning??

        1. Bella Ridley*

          I have very thick hair about the same length, and I can blow it dry in about 10 minutes. Everyone I know who can do it relatively quickly has some combination of the following: a newer, more powerful hair dryer (I have the Shark knockoff Air Wrap); a drying product like Ghost Whip or similar; enough time to let it dry a bit first (I usually let mine dry in a towel 15 minutes or more while I do other stuff first); or a routine to do it half-and-half or section it out. Trying to do a full blowout starting with soaking wet hair and nothing to help it along will definitely take me the better part of an hour.

    16. juliebulie*

      I haven’t worn makeup in years. Not anywhere. I don’t miss it a bit.

      I have a ton of old makeup in a drawer. At this point there’s really no reason to keep it, but every time I consider throwing it out I get this feeling like I should keep it, “just in case.” Even so, the stuff is old and probably not nice anymore. And it would be nice to have an extra drawer. Or should I buy a bunch of new stuff “just in case”? (Like, there’s going to be an EMERGENCY that requires makeup and there’s no time to go to the store, LOL!)

      Casual dress workplace. I wear a lot of flannel.

      1. Isabel Archer*

        Definitely throw it out! Most cosmetic products are only good for 6-12 months after you first open them. This is why you don’t see expiration dates on makeup, but you will see a simple little line drawing of a jar with the lid open, and if it says “6M” on it, that means once you open the product, the 6-month clock starts.

        Then the formulas start to degrade, either due to the shelf life of individual ingredients, or exposure to air. Mascara especially…anything with an applicator that touches your face directly, no matter how clean your face/lashes are, just naturally picks up minute amounts of bacteria. Then those minute amounts go back into the tube to breed.

      2. allathian*

        No makeup, stopped wearing it in March 2020 and haven’t seen the need to start again, especially given that my chapped no matter how often I moisturize it face would like it if I did…

    17. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Bare faced unless I look extra corpse-y that day, at which point I’ll add mascara and lipstick. I’ll also do mascara/lipstick if I have a meeting where I want to look more presentable (e.g. meeting with a client), but otherwise I mostly don’t bother anymore.

    18. L*

      I’m pretty self-conscious about what PCOS does to my skin, so I usually put on moisturizer, foundation, concealer and powder. I also do an eyebrow pencil, mascara and eyeliner because I’m so blonde you wouldn’t know I had elbrows or eyelashes otherwise. Other than the moisturizer, which is from the Body Shop, this is all run-of-the-mill drugstore brands. I also like Burt’s Bees tinted lipbalms for moisture plus a hint of colour. For hair I just do a simple ponytail, braid or bun (I haye the feeling of loose hair). My office is casual and I could get away with not doing any of this, as many of my coworkers do, but I prefer to look a certain way. I don’t do anything special with my makeup for important events, but I will wear a blazer on those days to dress things up a bit.

    19. Paint N Drip*

      I have grand goals of morning workouts and journaling and other cool girl things, but my AM routine is so basic! I work only in the office. Also writing this out makes me think I am still 17 years old lol

      Wake & bake
      watch a YouTube video OR listen to a podcast while knitting a few rows of my latest project
      Wash face, apply serums & ceramide lotion (store brand of Cerave – I find it slightly mattifying)
      The extent of my makeup is – Curl eyelashes, Tarte ManEater mascara, Elf brow mascara
      Make a “latte” with my powdered supplements (I use Javy coffee concentrate, totally recommend)
      Toast english muffin, enjoy with latte
      Pack food (I aim to bring at least a snack like yogurt, ideally a whole lunch)
      Feed dogs and let them out, brief play outside if weather allows
      Brush teeth, put on chapstick
      Blow out the door at mach speed and end up 5 minutes late

    20. Good Enough For Government Work*

      I never wear makeup to work unless I am doing something I’m nervous about (public speaking, usually).

      a) I refuse to get up any earlier than absolutely necessary, especially just to wear something that’s completely unnecessary;
      b) My makeup is expensive and I’m not wasting it on the workplace.

    22. anectoad*

      Before the pandemic, on workdays I wore powder, concealer, and sometimes even stuff for color correction of spots. I stopped all of that when I started masking daily. I no longer wear a mask to work but never started wearing makeup to work again. I do have a small skincare routine where I put two different things, a serum and a cream, on my neck in order to hopefully deter more crepe-y-ness of skin; and use one product on my face as a combo of sunscreen and reducing dark spots. So I guess it’s the same amount of products but it’s no longer makeup. I do have more important meetings on some days, but I just pay more attention to what clothing and jewelry I am wearing on those days, I still don’t wear makeup. I do wear makeup (including eye makeup but never lipstick) a few times a year for going out for special occasions though, but those are not work things.

    23. KG*

      If I skip my morning coffee, it takes me 15 minutes from bed to door – I shower the night before and always wear the same combination of jeans and one of the 5 tops I rotate through (in office 5 days a week). I never learned how to wear makeup, so I don’t bother with that, and I also don’t own a blowdryer, so I just pull my hair back in a ponytail. Extremely low maintenance, but also, I’m in IT, so I think expectations are lower.

      Now that I’m getting older, I’ve begun to think about makeup, but I don’t think I’ll ever actually try it.

  30. Anon for this and that*

    A loved one recently encountered this situation at work and I wanted to ask the community for your thoughts. 

    Loved One’s boss physically resembles an abuser from their past, to the point of being a doppelganger. Boss is not abusive, but is a micromanager with a cold and prickly communication style, so Loved One doesn’t have many positive experiences of working with them to balance out the massive negative that Boss’s physical appearance is triggering their memories of abuse on a daily basis. 

    In this situation… where an employee is having trouble working with someone for a reason like this… what options exist? It doesn’t seem feasible (or wise) to go to HR and say, “I need a transfer because my boss is unwittingly triggering my PTSD just by existing.” Do they look for a new job? Ask for a transfer with a trumped-up excuse? Engage in intensive therapy to try to mentally untangle their boss from their previous abuser? All of the above? 

    Fortunately for Loved One, there was a reorg for unrelated reasons and they now have a different boss, so it’s mostly academic at this point. Just wondered what the community would think. Thanks <3

    1. Strive to Excel*

      Oof.

      I’d probably vote for “look for a new job”. If you feel HR is very sympathetic and there’s likely to be crossover skills, you could try asking for a transfer, but if a company hires you for a specific position it might be hard to argue under the ADA that moving is a reasonable accommodation.

    3. MsM*

      I mean, I think “boss’s management style doesn’t mesh with how I prefer to work” is reason enough if they have to justify requesting a transfer, assuming they even need to bring boss into it and can’t just play up something about the transfer that’s genuinely more in alignment with what they want to be doing or a good skill-building opportunity.

    4. Unkempt Flatware*

      Ah, yeah, I’m sorry but it seems the only option is to look for a new job. It sucks but there is nothing to be done.

    5. Rocky*

      Since you mentioned therapy — yes. And perhaps a specific kind. I am doing EMDR for past trauma and it is working extremely well for me, including for abuse that is 50 years ago. It is used by the Dept of Veterans Affairs for PTSD for vets, I believe. This is NOT the same as ASMR or whatever is popular on TikTok. Certified practioners can be found through the Psychology Today website, or some therapists your friend’s friends are seeing may practice it in addition to whatever else kind of therapy they do. Also, it can be done over Zoom, which is how I am doing it. Good luck to your friend.

    6. Daphne*

      Interesting that all replies so far have said “look for new job.” I would advise therapy, active reminders to themself that Boss is not abuser, and actively seeking out more interaction to build up positive experiences. I recommend that last one to anyone who works with or for someone who can be kind of cold and prickley.

    7. Kay*

      I’m shocked there were so many “get a new job” responses before anyone said “Obviously – therapy!!!”

      I would certainly not want to work under a micromanager, but if I had to struggle because of someone’s appearance – I would be working hard to overcome that.

      1. Seashell*

        It’s possible that therapy could already be happening, but I’d go with both at the same time. It might take a while to find a new job/get a transfer or to get useful results from therapy, so might as well attack the problem from both ends.

    8. cleo*

      Therapy! Specifically trauma-informed therapy.

      The book The Body Keeps the Score gives a good overview of the science behind this approach. Avoid traditional talk therapy – it’s good for many things but it’s terrible for treating trauma, it can definitely make things worse.

      There are modalities that are specifically developed to treat trauma (EMDR, somatic experiencing, DBR (deep brain reorienting), CRM (comprehensive resource model) etc. And there are also therapists working in styles that aren’t specifically for trauma but are themselves trained in trauma treatment. I’ve worked with a couple trauma-informed art therapists who were excellent.

      I also took a Becoming Safely Embodied (BSE) skills course that was pretty life changing and I think the approach might help with the specific situation – it’s all about using mindfulness and other tools to manage triggers.

  31. Yoga Ball*

    Happy Friday everyone.

    I need some advice from people in busy and/or dysfunctional workplaces and keeping a good work life balance.

    I started a new job and it’s not toxic (yet) but man, it’s dysfunctional. It feels like everything is urgent when it’s not. I keep getting new projects. No one knows wtf my role is supposed to do.

    I’ve given up trying to Fix Everything because I’m basically a middle manager. I can feel myself getting burnt out already. At this point, I’m dedicated to doing my work and not overextending myself, but it’s really hard to do as I have a tendency to help and say yes to things — and I’m still a bit confused on the big picture of my job.

    Either way, I am not going to hurt myself over my job yet again. What are some solid tips for keeping the work life balance balanced? Here’s some things I’ve considered:

    – Sticking to my actual work hours and not taking work home (I do fear this will result in not getting all my projects done though.)
    – Considering if I can actually help before saying yes, and seeing if I can take something off my plate first
    – Not working on weekends
    – Trying to not take things personally
    – Remembering that a job is not my life. I am more than a career. (This one is HARD, especially working in a non-profit.)

    These feel like big tips, wondering if anyone has other tips or things I can remember about work life balance from day to day? Thank you!

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think these are all the big ones, but I’d also be clear with your boss about what you can realistically accomplish so that inevitably can’t get done on their timeline because you are not superhuman, it’s not a surprise.

    2. Name (Required)*

      Remember it’s okay to say “No, I don’t have the bandwidth for that now.” and “No, I won’t be able to meet that deadline unless something else gets pushed back.” or just “No.”

      1. Can't remember my username*

        if “No” is too hard, then you could try “Yes, and the impact is…..”.
        Also remember to stop and get a coffee, to take a few minutes to walk and grab lunch. Those little bits help keep a little bit of balance.

      2. Bess*

        Yeah, sometimes people don’t understand you’re overloaded until you say you are (common in places where project requests come from all sides instead of just the supervisory chain, where people don’t have the full picture of what is on someone’s plate). In a vacuum, if someone just said yes and took something, I would just assume they had the bandwidth to get it done.

    3. Sloanicota*

      I work at a place that has been essentially free-falling into chaos for the past several years, and it can still work without driving you too crazy, at least for a short time. 1) if there’s something you really like about the job, lean into that and enjoy the heck out of it – for me, it’s that we don’t have set hours and I can literally drive the park and spend a few hours throwing sticks to my dog on a Wednesday morning. So I make sure to actually do that. That makes me feel better when, as today, I get a text on my day off that our 990 was filed incorrectly and all of our charitable registrations, which were due today and which I completed on Monday, need to be redone, urgently. 2) the phrase I contemplate most often is “I can’t care about this more than the people senior to me do.” I think of myself as some sort of soldier/machine cog: my job is to do set tasks as directed, to the best of my ability, within the limits of my availability. If other people choose not to fix things, well, they must have their reasons. 3) Focus on the nonprofit outcomes that are good and remember why you do what you do. Even with that, though, it’s not a place to stay for five years, because it gets in your head.

    4. I didn't say banana*

      I found it helpful to think through the “if I don’t work late, I won’t get everything done” fear. What if I don’t get everything done? Will serious harm come to others? Will I get fired immediately? If not, I guess I won’t get everything done.

      If yes, serious harm will occur, then my job is very important and I need to be well rested to do it well long term. If I’m going to be fired for having work life balance, this isn’t the job for me.

    5. Bike Walk Barb*

      I’m a “say yes” person to. On top of that I generate ideas for new things. I’ve always worked in mission-oriented organizations and have always cared deeply so I tend to do extra. I’m better now at not running myself into the ground. Two things that help me:

      When you have that thought about how you can’t get everything done, remember that even if you DID get everything done there would be new things tomorrow. There is no “done” in work. You can finish individual projects, yes, and there will be new ones. So I don’t compare the current situation to some mythical future with a clean desk and empty calendar. Remembering that may help you say to yourself, “Of course there’s still more work. There always is. Even if I work late every night and every weekend there’s more, and that’s not humanly sustainable or required.”

      On the tendency to say yes, if you can insert a mental check first you can use “To say yes to this, what am I saying no to?” Every yes requires a no. I’m saying no, I won’t get that other one done by the deadline. No, I won’t be able to leave at 5pm. No, I won’t get those old emails answered. Do you want to say no to all those things?

      The conversation with the boss others described is also important. If you have a list of things that are overloading you and you put a bunch of those things on the list yourself, they’re going to note that and tell you to stop doing that. If you can do that yourself and lighten the load, that will help in that conversation.

      Speaking of which, the other thing I’ve seen come up in so many comments here is people saying they’ll do something and then not delivering and going radio silent. If you’re adding so much that you’re having to tell people you can’t finish or can’t do something you took on, you’re really not helping them. It’s much more helpful to say no at the front end and let them figure out a real solution.

      Good luck!

  32. Federal Civil Servants*

    Long term federal civil servants – what are you planning/expecting?

    I’ve got 25 yrs of creditable service. I’ve been maxing out my TSP every year of my career. My intent was to retire in 7 yrs at the MRA from the position I’m in.

    I do GOOD work and truly am a civil servant. I could definitely have made a lot more money in private (& still could) but chose this path out of a combination of risk-aversion (the pension was a huge draw for me, even if under FERS it isn’t nearly as good as CERS or what civilians think) and a desire to really serve society. Now… I don’t know what to do. I know they are going to gut the civil service of anyone who actually serves the agency missions if they are in a visible position, but how fast do you think they will retroactively eliminate pensions as opposed to changing it for new employees? Or stop covering even a portion of health insurance?
    I just can’t decide if I should be making plans right now to downsize, sell my property, etc and work towards long-stay visas in a different country (Uruguay looks surprisingly promising), or if being in a progressive state & a job series that they are going to need even if they dismantle most of the agencies that serve the public.
    I’m scared and frustrated. (Though not NEARLY as much for myself as I am for others)

    1. Tradd*

      I don’t know what state you’re in, but IL and CO’s governors seem to be really stepping up to the plate to protect their residents from the incoming administration.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Wait and see what changes happen. Dust off that resume and visa just in case. Don’t sell property etc until you actually see what the impact is on your specific job.

      There’s a good chance lower civil service jobs won’t see much change up. If you can make it to pension that’s such a nice retirement. Change takes time, and government is slow regardless of who is in power. Plus things like trying to retroactively eliminate pensions usually generate court cases which further slow down changes.

    3. Nacho Mama*

      I am going to sit tight and see what happens. I would just do what you can now like make sure your resume is updated and you have enough financial cushion in case you do need to make movements. But I would not sell anything off at this time or make any rash decisions. We just dont know enough. 7 years is so close for that retirement… I would wait and see.

    4. Flower*

      Your feelings are totally understandable. But do not do anything big yet (like sell property). There ARE a few things you should do immediately, though:

      1. Download and print out your entire personnel record (I can’t remember what the docs are called). Not like your reviews and stuff (though that wouldn’t hurt), but all the official agency documents that show when you were hired, every time you got a step increase, changed titles or whatever, etc etc etc. After 25 years this will be many hundreds of pages long, but these records are critical to making sure your retirement (whenever it is) is done correctly, and they are hard to access if you leave the agency.

      2. Make an appointment right away to speak to the HR people at your agency that handle retirements. (They are going to be inundated with requests for appointments now, so I wouldn’t wait.) They can give you estimates for various retirement dates. But most importantly, if you may decide to leave your agency, they can advise you about things like whether to take an early retirement (if you qualify) or whether you can actually leave but “defer” your retirement until a later date. For sure you probably don’t want to just “quit,” but they can advise you. And since such personnel vary, you might even consider talking to an outside advisor – in addition – who knows a lot about federal service, retirement, benefits, etc. There are loads of such specialists in DC, and many of them can advise outside of DC also.

      3. I’m guessing this isn’t an issue, but make sure you have been on some form of FEHB for the five years prior to leaving your agency or you won’t be able to take it with you into retirement. I almost made this mistake by switching to my spouse’s health insurance.

      4. Hang in there.

    5. Bess*

      I would not preemptively abandon a pension with the expectation that any given change could come down the pipeline. I think the administration will likely be too chaotic and unpredictable to really be able to make safe bets on what is really going to happen for the next four years.

    6. Flower*

      I tried to post earlier but it didn’t work for some reason. Trying again.

      Your concerns are understandable, I sympathize. But please don’t do anything big and irreversible yet (like selling property). Too soon. But DO:

      1. Download and print out all your personnel records. The ones that show when you were hired, every step increase, etc etc. After so many years there will be hundreds of pages, but you will need them whenever you retire/leave anyway to make sure your retirement benefits have been figured out correctly. Get them now, while it’s easy. After you leave it’s really difficult.

      2. Get an appt with your HR people who do retirements. They are going to be inundated with appt requests so I would do it soon. You don’t need to be planning to retire to meet with them. They will be able to tell you what benefits you can get under different dates and different scenarios. Also there may still be a way to “defer” retirement — as in, you go to a different job but don’t retire right now, but don’t lose the time into retirement. (Sorry, I don’t know how to explain it. But HR should be able to.) I would also consider having a meeting (the first one is usually free) with an advisor who specializes in advising feds. They know how FERS works, health insurance, etc., and are a good check on what your agency tells you. There are loads of them in DC (they are usually financial advisors) but many of them can work with people in other areas as well.

      3. Make sure you don’t quit/retire without five consecutive years in the FEHB before leaving, if you want to take your health coverage with you. I almost blew it by getting on my spouse’s health insurance (which was cheaper) too close to retirement.

      4. Hang in there.

  33. When suporvisor experiences a loss*

    My supervisor S has been on leave for a few months taking care of a sick spouse, and my grand boss recently notified me and S’s other report that S’s spouse died. S and I have always had a pleasant working relationship, but rarely discussed our personal lives. I never met the spouse, nor even knew their name.

    Do I get S a card? If so, how do I get it to them? I can’t leave it on their desk because they have their own office, and I don’t know when they’re coming back to work. They usually work remotely, so even when they resume work, I don’t know when they’ll be back in the office. Would it be weird to look up their home address?

    1. Kenelm*

      A card will be greatly appreciated, you could ask your grandboss where to send it to. Maybe your boss will also send a card (or digital copy) to your work and that will contain an address.

    3. anon today*

      If they are using a funeral home, you can send the card there and they’ll pass it on to your coworker and her family.

    4. Pentapus*

      or send an email, chat message, however you’d normally communicate. the actual paper card is not the point.

    5. Lady Lessa*

      I second the idea of a card. Could you find out some information from the public obituary if there is a charity that S would like having the donations sent to?

      When my boss died several years ago, we weren’t given an address to send cards, but HR took care of sending the cards to his widow.

    6. nonprofit director*

      I was an S. And oddly enough, my name starts with S. I was working remote for a couple of months while caring for my spouse. When my spouse died, I appreciated hearing from my co-workers. Ask your grandboss how to get a card to S, or communicate to S in the way that you normally do. I really, really appreciated all communications … cards, emails, text messages. Phone calls were harder in the early days, though. Just reach out in whatever way feels right to you.

    7. When suporvisor experiences a loss*

      Thanks all for the feedback. I’m asking grandboss how to get a card to S.

    9. HonorBox*

      Do send a card. I’d ask your grandboss if they could pass along any information about funeral arrangements, and you could send the card via the funeral home. Or in a case like this, I don’t think it is out of bounds to ask for someone’s home address.

  34. Aretha*

    Any suggestions for a woman who works with a lot of older men who don’t listen? It feels ridiculous to ask, but I’m noticing how tough it is to get some of the men in my office to listen to me. They just seem to treat me like I’m an afterthought. It’s thankfully a small number, but enough that I’m annoyed.

    Management has not been helpful. I feel like I’m going to have to shift how I talk to them. They respond well to men, but not so much anyone else. I feel like I have to be extremely stern, gruff, etc. with them to get anywhere, but that’s not my personality. OR (and I extra hate this) be in a pretty dress to be listened to.

    I hate it. I truly can’t wait for them to retire, but one of them is a new person.

    1. Qwerty*

      All I have is commiseration. Sometimes I find it helpful to be validated that I’m not crazy.

      Sadly it is not just the older men. I’m finding it in all ages, especially with remote folks.

    2. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      It’s annoying to have to suggest this, but do you have any male colleagues who do listen to you? Can you ask them to help “amplify” your voice by saying things like “That’s a great idea, Aretha” or “I thought it was a good idea when Aretha first brought it up”?

    3. The teapots are on fire*

      It sucks. Try a blazer in a stodgy color like charcoal or navy and put it on whenever you have to talk to them. Even if it goes with nothing you have on. This was magic beans with the “can’t listen to women” boss I had. I’m quite sure he had no idea he was doing it.

    4. Paint N Drip*

      First of all, commiseration – you are NOT alone in this stupid boat. I don’t feel great about it, but I’ve had luck getting the respect I deserve as a human by appealing to them in other ways (you’re onto this with the pretty dress, ugh)

      In one case, we had some shared interests so I made an effort to ‘prove myself’ by being familiar with something he thought was cool – maybe that means letting him talk at you for a bit to develop that relationship. In another case, I was downtrodden to the point where I snapped and basically treated him like a scolding mother – idk if it was the mom vibes, the proof that I was being treated poorly, or ‘standing up for myself’ but it changed things. In another case, I had some niche knowledge that was unexpected but helpful – proving myself part two, I suppose. AGAIN, I don’t like these options and I think its BS that you aren’t getting basic respect.

      The only time I’ve ever had success in this realm and felt good about the situation was just being fuckin real, but in so many office this absolutely won’t fly – in a pleasant-ish exchange I was honest about how he was a pain in the ass making my job harder and I’d like to work together if he could get his head out of his ass

  35. Angela*

    My company’s HR department has sent me two emails this week threatening “disciplinary action” “up to and including termination” for requesting accommodations for a temporary change in work location in October of this year.
    One threat was for a “remaining 5 day deadline” to submit supporting paperwork for the requested accommodations. This was the first I was made aware of vague supporting paperwork requirements (but no information on what that would be) and any deadlines to submit that. When I requested clarification, I was told my specific request for accommodations, which include entrance wide enough to accommodate my mobility assistance devices such as walker and wheelchair, falls under the disciplinary policy of the company HR for requesting accommodations. Today, the company requested a medical release, which I was told violated HIPAA and is illegal to require for accommodations. I’m concerned I’m about to be terminated. I work in Massachusetts. What should I do next?

    1. StressedButOkay*

      Whoa! Wait, they’re saying that if you ask for accommodations, you automatically get disciplined?

      I would find an employment lawyer ASAP. I would also email your boss, the head of HR, and the CEO with some kind of concerned email along the lines of “From my, and my lawyers, understanding of the disability rights in the state of MA along with the ADA, this is illegal as I am requesting…”

      But reach out to a lawyer immediately. Record and keep everything. If they do fire you, you’re going to have a heck of a lawsuit on your hands.

    2. AccessibilyOptional*

      I don’t normally suggest this, but given the timelines they’ve given you, I would call the offices of Warren, Markey, and your congressman.

      FWIW, I have always been asked for medical information about diagnoses when requesting accommodations (also in Mass) but an actual release so they can directly talk to your medical team is definitely a bridge too far.

      Also know that Mass grandfathers some buildings into older rules – it is not illegal to have non-accessible office spaces, even medical office spaces, under a variety of circumstances here. I’ve struggled with this a lot over the years.

    3. CommanderBanana*

      Oh, I would definitely talk to an employment lawyer, ASAP. If I’m understanding what you wrote, they’re threatening you with disciplinary action for requesting ADA accommodations?
      Document everything, keep correspondence to emails (vs phone calls), and save everything to a non-work laptop.
      Talk to a lawyer.

    4. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Make sure you have copies of all of this and consultant an employment attorney. Look on the state bar’s website for “lawyer referral service.” That should help you with locating an attorney.

    6. Pocket Mouse*

      Make sure you have these communications in your personal possession in case you lose access to your work email or the messages get disappeared from the email server.

    7. WellRed*

      In addition to all other advice make sure this isn’t some rogue low level employee who doesn’t know anything.

    8. Daphne*

      Who told you the medical release violated HIPAA? The only people who are covered by HIPAA are insurance offices, provider’s offices and places that store medical information, a billing company. HIPAA does not prohibit anyone, including your employer, from requesting information from you, nor does it prohibit you releasing your information to anyone. HIPAA also does not prohibit you from granting permission to a provider, etc., to release information, although I suggest you read the release form carefully to make sure it’s specific and not just carte blanche to get all your medical records.

      That said, ADA does not require medical records to support an accommodation request. The company can ask for documentation that the accommodation would allow you to perform your core job duties, but that can be a descriptive letter from a doctor. It doesn’t have to be a diagnosis.

      Have you asked for a copy of said disciplinary policy? I think you should read it carefully, and perhaps have a lawyer review. Disciplinary actions for requesting accommodations are a form of retaliation, which is illegal.

    9. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      In addition to AccessibilyOptional’s suggesting of calling both senators and your congressmember, I’d call the attorney general’s office.

      The one time I’ve asked my congressmember for help with a federal agency, they took care of things quickly and effectively. There’s probably a link labeled something like “constituent services” on their website. If you prefer the phone, call the Massachusetts office for this, not the Washington D.C. number.

  36. extra anonymous for this*

    TLDR: My coworker randomly gave me a valuable gift and I don’t know what to do or think.

    Background: I (woman and married to a man) have a coworker “Dave” (looks like a man and has a female spouse). We do different jobs in the same premises and occasionally come across each other. When this happens, we sometimes briefly chat – this is the level at which I know him. He has always seemed like a nice person and never said or done anything inappropriate.

    One of the things Dave has talked to me about is his hobby / side business: he collects, buys, sells and also gifts to other people certain items that can be quite expensive. He claims to make profit with this but as I’m not an expert in this particular hobby, I don’t know if this is likely to be true or not. I also don’t know how much money he earns in his main job but it’s a pretty basic job that’s unlikely to make him that rich.

    Today Dave gifted me a thing from his collection. It’s not something I would normally use, and it’s probably worth at least several hundreds on euros/dollars if it’s not a fake/copy item. He said I could keep it as a memory. The whole situation was very odd and I didn’t know what to say so I just said thank you and took the object he gave me. I didn’t even ask if he’s leaving or what the memory thing referred to.

    I don’t want to assume anything bad about people, but this is so odd that I can’t think of any innocent explanation to this. Is Dave trying to hit on me? (I have been politely friendly to him but that’s all and I don’t have any feelings on him.) Is he trying to get me involved in something illegal? Is the gift item fake, stolen or contain something illegal inside it? Where does the money for his hobby actually come from? Or is he giving away his belongings to random coworkers as memories because he plans to end his life? Should I give the gift back and if so, what should I say to him so that it wouldn’t hurt him or reveal any suspicions about him? Should I talk to someone at work about this?

    1. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Return it and say, “Thank you for thinking of me, but this is too generous and I’m not comfortable accepting it.”

      That’s entirely reasonable. If he feels hurt, that’s not on you to manage.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      This is extreme and hopefully an overreaction, but one of the worst case scenarios in depression has a major warning sign when people give away their belongings like that. I’d reach out to him, mention that you know this time of year is hard for a lot of people and isn’t it cool that hotline exists as well as share EAP info if you know it.

    3. Retirednow*

      I think there are a lot of red flags that go up that he is severely depressed. (I know we’re not supposed to talk about medical advice here and I understand that.“ But the fact that he mentioned he wants you to have it as a memory is very concerning to me. As a former therapist, I might even alert HR and I know that’s a drastic step but as others have mentioned, this is something people do when they have plans to not be here much longer.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Yeah, ordinarily, I’d just say he’s maybe a little socially awkward and this is his “crow giving a nice person a shiny thing” way of showing he appreciates you as a colleague, but the phrasing of giving it to you “as a memory” does stick out. I might start by approaching him and saying something like “thanks again for the miniature teapot. I was just thinking about how you said you meant for me to keep as a memory. Are you planning on going to a new company or moving away or something? What’s up?” See how he responds. If he’s weirdly vague or actively responds with an indication that something is seriously wrong, don’t hesitate to contact HR. I suppose another sad (but less “alert HR” kind of sad) possibility would be that he’s been diagnosed with something terminal, and doesn’t want to really talk about it. But maybe if confronted with his phrasing, he might do so, at least enough to let you know what’s going on.

        1. HonorBox*

          I like this approach. Dave may also be … awkward … in his social interactions, and “as a memory” might be totally innocuous, though weird phrasing. So asking about that makes sense.

          Depending on his answer, I may or may not dive into the fact that you’re uncomfortable keeping something so valuable. But I’d put that to the side for a bit to figure out if you need to say something to HR.

    4. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

      People are jumping to some pretty extreme conclusions here, but this is almost certainly Dave hitting on you. Just give it back using the script the other commenter suggested. Your extreme skepticism about his hobby is intriguing to me, and I have to wonder what it is.

      1. Just me, Vee*

        I don’t know how anyone who isn’t the OP can say with certainty that Dave’s giving away a possession and saying “you can keep it as a memory” isn’t a sign of depression.

    5. extra anonymous for this*

      Thanks for all the comments. It’s good to hear several opinions about this. I also have the opinions of my family members who I have told more details of the story than to Internet strangers.

      Regarding my suspicions about his hobby, I maybe emphasized it too much. It’s just something that seems quite expensive for someone in his pay range, so I can’t exclude the possibility that there’s something fishy about how he gets these things. People who I’ve told what it is agree about this, but none of us are experts in this so we can’t really know – maybe he is able to make a lot of extra money buying and selling.

      Also the memory thing was something I thought to include in the story because it might be relevant, but it also might not be. It could be awkward wording, or maybe he has resigned and presumes I know about it but I don’t.

      In any case, I have time to think – and overthink – about this until Monday :)

      1. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        Please update us when you can!

        I can’t think of any reason why he would be giving you a fake [Birkin bag] full of drugs, unless you are in a movie, so I vote for “hitting on you” or “severely depressed”.

  37. DisneyChannelThis*

    What’s your best work to do list method?? I’ve tried pen and paper, I’ve tried google doc, I had a lot of productivity with a digital google Jam board but now those are obsolete. I like being able to move items around between categories, Kan Ban style. I like visual stuff more.

      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        You know, I have not tried that since college. I do use post it notes for deadlines and meeting notes but not for task organizing. Maybe I’ll give it a go, I don’t have any wall space which would be nice for laying them out though….

      2. WantonSeedStitch*

        My manager loves using this for tracking projects. Her preferred digital equivalent, which I also like, is Trello.

    2. Trello*

      Trello. Trello is an awesome kanban board with free options available or inexpensive subscriptions if you want more functionality.

    3. My Day (they/them)*

      Notion is a general organizing tool that I haven’t used myself but many of my friends recommend for task organization- I’ve seen their layouts and they can be quite beautiful.

    5. Former Young Lady*

      If you’re willing to throw money at it: my team is using Monday(dot)com these days, and we like it quite a bit. I’m admittedly the least-visually-oriented person on the team, but it was our boss’s idea and he identifies as primarily visual.

    6. Purple Jello*

      I used Trello until my company IT blocked it out. Then I tweaked Outlook’s Task Manager to a workable compromise: color coding, % completed, reminders, added fields.

      Alternating with paper lists.

  38. Well anonymous*

    People who work with data visuals or graphs. My boss thinks data should be arranged so visually it goes from smallest to largest. For example. A b horizontal bar chart with 4 data points (years 1990, 1991etc) from a survey. But if the fewest respondents select 1992, she wants that to be the first bar, then the next one in number of responses and so on, so it reads 1992, 1994, 1990, 1991. That’s basket, right? I told her no, she’s tabled it for now.

    1. CommanderBanana*

      That’s insane. You can do multiple graphs of the same data and show larger numbers with larger graphics, like a word cloud style, but setting up a chronological series of data out of order because one year is larger? What?

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This is bonkers.

      When there is no implicit ordering of the options on the horizontal axis (eg: most popular t-shirt colors) then you can order them however you want. But even then, the most typical way to do that is monotonically decreasing, not monotonically increasing.

    3. ItDepends*

      For some visualizations it might make sense. For dates it’s likely not reasonable unless the point is to highlight a pattern in which years are low vs high. In that case it might make sense to group high together and low together.

    4. Strive to Excel*

      I’m going to break out the accountant’s answer: It Depends!

      A chart or graph should, to the best of the creator’s ability, reflect data in a way that is useful to the reader. Chronological charts are generally ordered chronologically because if someone included time on that chat they think its important. A chart showing “what DND class has the most art made of it” is more likely to be ordered largest to smallest, because volume is a key factor. No single type of ordering is going to cover all cases.

      In this case, I’d probably default to arranging the data by year, rather than by who had the highest responses, but I’d want to see the datasets all together as a whole.

      1. Lemons*

        Um excuse me, “it depends” is the designer’s answer! :P

        This designer says charts need to be arranged in the order the viewer expects to see the data, otherwise they will have difficulty reading it. Amounts on the Y axis with chronological years on the X are what people expect to see, if it’s out of order it will be confusing. Better to so the usual arrangement for a bar graph, and switch to another format to do what your boss wants, perhaps a pie?

        1. Strive to Excel*

          To me it would really depend on what purpose the chart is answering and what data it’s tracking! If the viewer is expecting to see a chronological graph – I agree entirely. If the question is “in which year were most llamas sheared in”, then I could see either time on the X-axis and amounts on the Y or # of llamas on the X-axis with a bar per year.

          But it does ultimately depend on what the question is.

    5. Nesprin*

      Uh…. data should be arranged to convey it’s meaning. If the point of the graph is to show that widgets made per year is going up or down over time, it should be chronological. If the point is to show the variance in widgets per year, a histogram makes more sense.

      (Obligatory plug for ‘the visual display of quantitative information’)

    7. Rex Libris*

      Yep, insane. Graphs go in chronological order, or whatever order logically illustrates the change in data from one entry to the next. Otherwise, why bother with a graph?

    9. WantonSeedStitch*

      Wait, so the year is a RESPONSE that people selected from the survey? Like a question asking “what year did you have the most fun in high school?” and you have to pick one of the four years listed? If so, having the responses sorted by number of respondents isn’t completely unreasonable. If the thing you want to know most is, “which year did people pick most? Which did they pick least?” then yeah, that’s a fine way of arranging the data.

      If, OTOH, you’re talking about a survey to which people responded in various years, and you are presenting responses from those various years in a bar graph, like, “In 1990, 30% of people answered yes. In 1991, 37% of people answered yes,” then the thing you’re really trying to show is how responses changed over time, in which case it should absolutely be chronological.

    10. pally*

      What should I conclude, as the reader of this graph?

      Your boss’ way shows me that different years have different numbers of respondents. But I cannot conclude if this is increasing or decreasing over time. If the goal is simply to show me how many respondents per year, then how about nixing the graph and providing a table instead?

      Going chronologically shows me how numbers of respondents changed over time. I can make a conclusion – the number varied every year or the number increased/decreased over the years.

      What does your boss want the reader to glean from this visualization?
      I’d be frustrated with your boss too.

    11. WellRed*

      Thx for validations! I’m literally just showing what percentage of respondents preferred to hich year, totally different 100%. Boss just thinks it looks better (prettier) her way. I may threaten to use only pie charts from now on to avoid the problem; )

    12. Hyaline*

      If the answers were of an arbitrarily ordered nature (like “what’s your favorite color” or “which sports mascot is your favorite”) then her way is fine. But if they *have an order that they already exist in*–like time–she’s being completely bananacakes and that would be the most confusing visual ever.

  39. BigMove*

    I would like to hear others’ opinions on this situation with someone I supervise. He let us know that he plans to leave the job this year. Not a problem and we appreciate the advance notice. However, upper management would like a solid end date, which the employee doesn’t yet know. So, we are setting an end date and letting him know. I’ve had several conversations with him about the situation, so it should not be a surprise to him. Has anyone dealt with a similar situation as a supervisor or manager?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      See this is why you never tell anyone you’re on the way out until you have a safe landing zone. Especially if it’s like retiring or other stuff where you really need your ducks in a row.

      1. Flying Solo*

        Ooof, yeah…… if he had said something like “I have this new job starting on (specific date) and my last day here will be (specific date)” that would be one thing.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I’d be really careful about how you handle this. If your employee is trying to be nice and give you a long heads up and you turnaround and push him out before he planned to leave, every other employee is going to see you do this and never give you more than the required 2 weeks notice.

      I totally get that it’s hard to make plans without a hard date, I see why you’d want to do that on your end, I’m just letting you know what the optics are going to be, you should be prepared for the repercussions of that.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        And by “required 2 weeks notice” I meant the standard 2 weeks notice, not that anyone is actually required to give it.

    3. CommanderBanana*

      Well, you’re firing an employee for being transparent about their future plans.* That’s definitely not going to make other employees be inclined to be transparent with you about theirs.

      *I personally think they were incredibly naïve and short-sighted to share that they were planning to leave, and I would never, ever, ever tell an employer I was thinking of leaving until I had a signed offer letter and start date in hand.

    4. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      Can you ask them whether Dec 31 would be a reasonable final date, with the understanding that if they need to set an earlier last day, they give you at least 2 weeks notice?

    5. HonorBox*

      I think I’d push back with management a bit. Your employee gave you a heads up that he’s leaving, though was not super specific with timing. They’re setting an end date… in essence firing him… because he’s not sure of the end date yet. Others are going to see how this goes and you’ll never get transparency from anyone. Some might even just give less notice when they do have an end date in mind.

      Ask management if you can approach the employee once more. You’ll want to tell him that management would like to be able to have ample time for a transition, and is now pressing you to set an end date, even if it is sooner than he plans to go. Tell him he said he was leaving this year, and with the holidays fast approaching, wrapping things up and getting someone hired is going to take longer, so if he could give you an end date by _____ (pick a date next week) you can go back to management with that date. You get to play good cop because you’re trying to help him while also pressing him for a date that is fast approaching.

    6. Qwerty*

      I’ve been the employee!

      We are getting close to the end of the year, so schedule a meeting with your employee next week to come up with a transition plan. Be very transparent – put it in the meeting title and agenda (make the meeting private since their departure may not be widely known).

      Before the meeting, think through some things yourself
      1. How does your insurance work? Does coverage end the last day of work or the end of the month?
      2. What would be your ideal end date?
      3. If he changed his mind, are you fine with him staying on?
      4. If his plan was to wait until he found a new job, would you be ok with that? It is possible that his job search didn’t go as planned

      Personally, I appreciated my boss suggesting an end date. I felt like any option I suggested was too long or too short so I just gave vague suggestions. We ended up doing mid-Dec so there was time to finish knowledge transfers after Thanksgiving but I’m gone before the Xmas slow period.

    7. Daphne*

      FYI, and look into this, if you set an end date rather than letting him do it, he may be eligible for UI.

  40. Flying Solo*

    I would like to seek some clarification regarding my reactions to task allocation within our department. As an office clerk at a law firm, I work alongside another clerk, with our office manager serving as our supervisor.

    Each week, my coworker and I divide our tasks on a rotating basis. One of our monthly responsibilities is cleaning out the office fridge. While my supervisor has assigned this task to my coworker to provide them with additional experience, my boss has said that if the fridge cleanout coincides with “my” week, I would take one of my coworker’s other monthly tasks to balance the workload.

    My concern arises when it comes to situations where my coworker is out sick or absent for other reasons (which has happened a few days in the last couple of weeks). I fully understand that these situations may arise, and I have no issues covering during their absence. However, I am concerned that there is no acknowledgment of the extra workload I take on when covering for my coworker – something I would not think about had the fridge cleanout swap not been mentioned. The tasks can range from smaller responsibilities, such as ensuring the kitchens are stocked, to more significant duties like setting up large conference room layouts, all while still managing the other usual responsibilities (phones, mail, etc) solo in addition to any other projects that might come up.

    While I recognize that this is partly a matter of perspective and perhaps a shift in mindset is needed on my part, the current approach feels a bit unbalanced, particularly in the absence of any recognition for the additional responsibilities I am shouldering.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If the swapped task has the same amount of time & effort involved as the fridge cleaning, then I’m having a hard time seeing why this irks you.

      But there is one thing you mentioned — your tasks are split between at-your-desk, highly-responsive things (eg phone calls) and away-from-your-desk, project things (set up the conference room). Is that maybe where you’re having a problem? You feel like you’re falling behind on the desk things because you’ve got to be away for 15 minutes in the conference room, and you don’t have any backup.

      1. Flying Solo*

        We have not yet decided on a task to swap, but there’s really nothing that’s comparable to the time and effort of fridge cleanouts (it is pretty low effort and time). I am just irked because while this one task would get recognition for needing to be swapped, the fact that I am on my own for a few days does not get acknowledged. But you’re right in that if I have things that take me away from the desk, I can’t work on other tasks I need to because there is nobody else to handle them.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Right, so I’d address that concrete thing with your supervisor. “How should I split my time when Fergusina is out sick? Do I need to make sure to swing by the desk every 15 minutes? Can we get one of the secretaries to spell me on the phones for an hour when there’s a big meeting I need to prep for?” etc.

          1. Flying Solo*

            Based on how it was before Fergusina was hired, I can only ask secretaries to cover for lunch breaks and messenger runs, and even then my boss is the one who works that out, but other than that I am expected to handle everything myself.

            1. Nola*

              So is it that there’s too much work for one person to handle? Or do you just want recognition for doing all the work when your coworker is out?

              If you were out and your coworker was covering for you – which I’m assuming is what happens when you are out? – would you expect coworker to get the same recognition for the additional responsibilities they have in your absence?

              Or are you resentful because she doesn’t handle things when you’re out and you then come back to a mess and have to struggle to catch up?

    2. Cordelia*

      doesn’t it work both ways though? Isn’t your coworker expected to cover for you if and when you are away for a few days? That seems fairly normal tbh. If the issue is that you’re not able to manage the workload when she is away, best to discuss this with your supervisor to see how the work should be prioritised.

    4. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      “One of our monthly responsibilities is cleaning out the office fridge. While my supervisor has assigned this task to my coworker to provide them with additional experience”

      How can cleaning out the office fridge be considered to be working experience? When I was working at a legal recruitment firm (I was the only admin), at one point, the owner suggested that I clean the bathrooms on a regular basis. (She had someone come in every two weeks to do the cleaning, but that just wasn’t enough for the owner.) I guess she figured that cleaning the bathrooms would “provide me with additional experience.” I did not care to get experience cleaning the bathrooms. I would not have put it on my resume. I never cleaned the bathrooms, and fortunately the owner never brought the subject up again.

  41. Lurking Tom*

    Has anyone nuked their LinkedIn? If so, have their been any repercussions?

    Multiple times now the stupid site has prompted me to follow a newly minted member of the incoming Regime of Morons here in the US, and I want absolutely nothing to do with any site that thinks this is a good thing to do. So I very much want to delete my LinkedIn, but I am also in my early to mid 50s and at least open to a job change. Am I expected to have one? Are there alternative sites that do not think right-wing grifter morons are worth promoting?

    1. Flying Solo*

      This is probably field-dependent on if you’d need an account, but I think you’d know if you were in one of those, so I say delete it. I deleted my twitter account last week for the same reason as you!

      1. Lurking Tom*

        I’ve been in IT for about 30 years now, and the only industry-relevant contact I’ve ever had is from people messaging me trying to sell me things or connect requests from people who want to sell me things. But I also haven’t had to do a lot of job searching – I’ve only had 5 jobs in those 30 years!

        I quit Twitter and Instagram about 4 years ago and have not missed them. I somehow never signed up for Facebook, which sure seems like a great decision now!

    2. Tradd*

      I was getting lots of spam messages and such, so I just hibernated it. You can still activate it by logging on again, but hibernating it means it goes hidden for the meantime.

      1. Lurking Tom*

        Yeah, all I ever get is the online equivalent of sales cold calls. Really I’m only active if I get a connection request from a current or past coworker, so I don’t think I’ll miss it, but if I do want to switch jobs and someone goes looking for me online, they’re not really going to find me, which I thought might be a red flag.

        1. Kay*

          Unless you need to have some media/online presence for the work you do, or your industry is heavily there, its not a red flag.

    3. Angstrom*

      I locked down my settings so that I’m mostly invisible, but the profile is there if I want to use it.

      1. Lurking Tom*

        Yeah, I guess my feeling is more that I don’t want to participate in a place that thinks promoting this scumbag is something they should be doing. I realize deleting my account sends no kind of message to anyone at LinkedIn who would care and I could just go invisible and turn off all the notifications, but my gut says I should delete it out of principle.

    4. nonprofit director*

      Late 50s. Nuked my LinkedIn a couple of months ago. No repercussions so far. Though I plan to retire from where I am currently working. I did not find LinkedIn useful to me in any job search efforts. Personal connections and networking always were far better for me.

      1. Lurking Tom*

        This is good to hear, especially since I am at a point in my life / career where I only want to work for mission-aligned nonprofits and your username makes me think you are similarly motivated :).

    5. The Prettiest Curse*

      I cannot stand the whole incoming administration, but it seems a tad over the top to delete your account because an algorithm is sending you one suggestion that you don’t like. You can either click the X button at the top right of the widget that shows you their photo or (more effectively) you can go to that person’s profile and block the living daylights out of them so you never see them as a suggestion again.

      The person in question was likely being suggested to you by an algorithm because one of your contacts follows them or they’re in your industry. As a person gains followers, they get suggested to more people just because they have more connections. Delete your LinkedIn account or not, but really, nobody is sitting in an office in Palo Alto thinking up the best strategies to offend you.

      1. Lurking Tom*

        I mean, I’m definitely not picturing some evil mustache twirler saying “Let’s promote this guy to Tom and make him very mad, MUAHAHA” but I also fundamentally object to this person being promoted / platformed at all, algorithm or no. He’s definitely not in my industry and not followed by anyone in my network that I can see.

        I played the blocking game on Twitter for awhile before I decided it wasn’t worth it and just deleted Twitter, and I’ve kinda gotten to that point with LinkedIn. I only really care if it’s going to harm me down the line to delete it, but I really don’t think it will. Just wanted to see if there was some reason not to delete that I might be missing.

        1. David*

          If you don’t want to be on any social media or similar site where the person is promoted or has a platform at all, that probably limits you to sites which proactively block that person. And unfortunately, that pretty much rules out almost any large, mainstream site. If you want to give that up, that’s a perfectly fine choice, just be aware that you’re giving up a *lot* (and, as other people said, that you’re giving it up for your own personal validation, not in any realistic hope of changing the way the sites work).

          As for whether it hurts you… I think you have to evaluate the decision in the context of the field you work in, because as other people also said, usage of LinkedIn varies by field. It’s probably less necessary for you to be on it than most people would have you think, though.

          Other sites that fall under the same umbrella – like Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Reddit, YouTube, etc., if you use any of them – will probably be easier to give up, fortunately :-) (at least with regard to your career)

    7. Don’t put metal in the science oven*

      I deleted LinkedIn when I retired & have regretted it a few times when I wanted to quickly look up someone* but now I’d have to start a whole new profile & it’s not worth it.
      *Like a old colleague or professor or home repair person

    8. Qwerty*

      It means people in your network are following those people. The algorithms take into account (1) who are a lot of people following, especially if there has been a large increase and (2) the activities of the people in your network. The idea is your friend talks about X to you and the next day you see X on your social media and think “hey, I was just looking for that! this app is magic!” (reality…people think the app is listening to their conversations, so it backfires)

      I’ve been pretty active on LinkedIn the past couple weeks and it has not suggested a single political person. It does give me a lot of people who talk about AI, probably because I’ve been paying attention to the profiles of my AI friends.

    9. PropJoe*

      I haven’t disabled my LinkedIn, primarily because my employer has a LinkedIn Learning license and I occasionally need to take a class through it.

      Other than that, I only update my profile when job hunting and don’t keep the app on my phone.

    10. Bitte Meddler*

      I used LinkedIn to find my current job and to keep up with past co-workers and college friends (as in, to see their statuses and congratulate them on new jobs / promotions, not to ask about anything personal).

      I ignore LI’s suggestions for people to connect with / follow, just like I ignore them on other social media platforms.

    11. kalli*

      I nuked mine. No repercussions, I haven’t noticed less access to jobs, but there’s a lot of info in LinkedIn that is locked behind having an account, like ‘is this person really from this company’ and you get ‘please log in to view this person’s full profile’. I can usually get enough from a search engine to not need that, but.

  42. Anon Today*

    I am a transman working in a conservative field in a conservative area of a purple state. I’ve been in my job a bit over a year, but have been working in this field for about 8 years. I love my job and really like the people I work with. I am not out at work.

    However, I have been having a problem for the past week with one coworkers, Steve. Steve and I are at the same level, but he has been in this job a few years longer than me. For this reason, he has been my primary go-to when I have a question about a specific procedure or other issue. Over time, we’ve gotten to be friends.

    I knew from the start that Steve was a Republican. We avoided issues by just not talking politics in the office. I am 99% sure that Steve voted for Trump. However, even Steve is upset by some of the things Trump has done since winning (though he still supports him).

    And this leads to my issue. I have to continue working with Steve. And to be fair, I really do think he would be supportive if he knew I am trans. (A mutual friend who knows I am trans has told me that she does not think Steve would have any issue if he did know. Plus, I have heard him make comments that are positive towards the “alphabet soup” community.) But the reality is I am pretty sure he voted for a man who wants to make me a second-class citizen – even though Steve does not know that.

    Thoughts?

    1. MsM*

      If you genuinely think Steve’s an okay person to be open around, maybe just stop going out of your way to avoid references to your being trans if and when that might come up. I don’t know that it’s going to be particularly helpful or constructive to have an in-depth conversation about what the current climate means for you, and he might be one of those people who compartmentalizes people he knows personally and assumes they’re going to be all right because he wants them to from what happens to the ones he doesn’t have a direct connection to, but maybe just being fully you will get him thinking more about this stuff.

    2. Corgis*

      I am a cishet woman but I have a trans nephew and multiple close trans and nonbinary friends and I have been really struggling with these kinds of things too. I know a few people who are mutual friends with some of my trans friends (and are aware they are trans) and claim to love and support them but then turn around and vote for someone who wants to take away their rights. I don’t understand how you could claim to love someone and then vote to have their rights taken away. That is not love or support. I wish I had actionable advice for you but just know that you are not alone in feeling this way. You have my love and support from afar.

    3. Disengage*

      If you can, ignore it. Don’t engage in political discussions. You don’t know for certain how he voted, so if it helps tell yourself he didn’t vote for Trump. Use the fact that he’s critical of Trump now as a positive in his favor and as something that allows you to continue to work with Steve without discussing identity or politics.

      The truth is that very few people have the luxury of only dealing with people on their side of the aisle, and that’s true even if you feel personally attacked or endangered by their beliefs or the beliefs of someone they support.

      Before you say I don’t know what it’s like, I’m part of a demographic group that has been attacked pretty seriously by both sides and doesn’t have a safe space on one side or the other. I have friends and family on both sides, and at times I feel attacked by both. I ignore the stuff I wish I hadn’t seen/heard as much as possible and don’t engage unless it’s absolutely unavoidable.

      It shouldn’t have to be this way, but it is. And I apologize if I’ve made this too much about me rather than you. I guess I wanted to convey that I know it’s hard and that, while my situation is somewhat different, the advice is coming from someone in similar shoes and not from someone who doesn’t know it can be hard.

    4. Rex Libris*

      To the extent it’s possible, I don’t discuss personal details like gender, sexuality, religion, political affiliation or anything similar with my coworker. I don’t actively lie or anything, I just make a habit of keeping my work relationships pleasant, shallow and non-committal and it’s worked out pretty well.

      I guess I’d weigh any actual benefit of being more open vs. what’s likely to happen if you guess wrong about about trusting them with your information. I mean, you already know of at least one major area where your worldview definitely doesn’t align with Steve’s.

    5. Dinwar*

      I think an important thing to remember is that just because someone voted for someone, it doesn’t mean that they agree with everything that person is trying to do. Look AOC’s recent response to the election–reaching out to people who voted for Trump AND the local Democratic candidate for Congress. We tend to think of politics as binary in the USA because that’s how our elections work, but the reality is that it’s a whole multi-dimensional spectrum.

      I find it best to take people as individuals. I’ve got good friends that voted for Trump, and I’ve remained good friends with them despite being Pagan (another group that’s in fairly serious jeopardy in the current political climate). We even agree on a few points, politics-wise. As someone once told me, “I like some of his policies, but someone needs to cut his thumbs off” (meaning they wanted Trump to stay off Twitter).

    6. Pocket Mouse*

      My two cents: if you are thinking about coming out just to Steve, and would prefer not to come out to any additional people at this time, Steve is a liability. Even if he’s generally supportive, he may shift his interactions with you in a way that’s noticeable to others or inadvertently (or intentionally/unthinkingly) out you to others in your workplace or field. It’s up to you to weigh the risks of being out to Steve with the benefits of the same, and to assess the most desirable timing of coming out to him if you decide to. Genuine questions, since I don’t see it spelled out in your question: What do you see as the benefits? How would coming out to Steve improve your working relationship?

      This whole situation sucks, I’m sorry.

      1. Anon Today*

        I’m not thinking of coming out to anyone at work. My question was more “how do I deal with someone who I get along with very well but who may have – in ignorance – voted for me to become a second-class citizen.”

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          Oh! Apologies for misunderstanding the question. I don’t have any answers for you, because I’ve been grappling with similar things outside of work. For me, my questions consolidated into: what does friendship look like in this situation? What do I expect of a friend, and can I consider someone a friend if they aren’t showing those things to me? Is this person a friend to me?

          In your case, I’m not sure if you’re reconsidering the friendship, or more just distracted by the elephant between you as you try to work together. Maybe my questions can be adapted to a collegial setting. I’d also find it distracting and bothersome.

          (It still sucks, and I’m still sorry.)

    7. Some Dude*

      One thing to keep in mind is that the majority of people who voted in 2024 voted for Trump, including a lot of people who belongs to groups that could be targeted by his administration: women, latinos, african americans, etc. It’s possible that Steve hasn’t read deep into Trump’s policies on Trans people. I am a lifelong democrat and voted for Harris and only today read the democrat party platform – I was offered a choice of drinking bleach or lukewarm water so chose the lukewarm water and didn’t bother to look into the ingredients, if that analogy makes sense. Maybe Trump was like that for Steve – he didn’t like the biden administration, didn’t want more of the same, and figured Trump 2.0 would be less awful than biden 2.0.

      1. Jill Swinburne*

        Given that ‘what are tariffs’ was a trending search on Google following the election, this is absolutely plausible. Those of us who follow politics and think deeply about the issues really struggle to fathom how uninformed a lot of people are.

        1. Some Dude*

          That was my wake up call – oh, people vote on vibes and most voters aren’t as into politics as me and my friends and colleagues.

        2. A. Reader*

          In 2016, right after it became clear that Britons had voted for Brexit, Google showed a massive spike in searches for “what is the EU” and “what happens if we leave the EU.”

    8. Hyaline*

      Part of work life is that we work with people we wouldn’t choose to hang with in real life, and our work personas are often a bit different from our real life personas. That can manifest in a bunch of different ways, but one way is that politics don’t necessarily align and we don’t necessarily stay as open about our politics at work as we do elsewhere. For those of us who live very politically in personal life, this can feel weird–but it’s actually way more normal to be buttoned up about politics and personal life and even identity at work than not. Honestly, you’re adding a lot of extras in here when the basic question is “how to keep working with Steve” and the answer is “keep going like you were.” If you wouldn’t normally make a thing out of coming out with your trans identity with a coworker, you probably shouldn’t with Steve, his politics or no–and my maybe old-school view is that “coming out” falls under “button up about your personal life at work.” “Friends at work” doesn’t necessarily translate to “open about everything in my life with each other.” Work friends are great, but they don’t have to be open book friends.

      And yeah, I know a lot of the rhetoric is “if you voted for Trump it means you hate [fill in the blank]” but the reality is, most voters were not thinking that way. (Also this is why we have secret ballots. You don’t know who Steve voted for. He’s not telling you. Let it be a nonissue for the viability of getting along at work.)

  43. Chirpy*

    On the plus side, the coworker who wouldn’t let me read in peace on my breaks/interrupted my work to chitchat quit, so that’s no longer an issue, and someone else actually brought up a thing that the Jerk Coworkers are doing to make things annoying for me/ my department (that I have been ignoring because I have bigger things to deal with, but also I wasn’t sure I wasn’t just paranoid about it being those guys) to my department head. (and confirmed I was right. ) The downside is my department head has been really mean this week. Understandably, she’s probably worried about the incoming administration (she hasn’t said anything, but her family will almost certainly be affected). But it’s really getting unbearable.

    I’d love some encouragement for my job hunt, because a lot of my possibilities are likely in fields that may get hit hard soon and I just don’t know what to do. And frankly, my current coworkers (and past bad jobs) have me ground down to where I’m having a hard time coming up with reasons why people should hire me.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      my current coworkers (and past bad jobs) have me ground down to where I’m having a hard time coming up with reasons why people should hire me

      I’m just an internet stranger but I’ve read a few of your posts over the last year or so, and as far as I can tell, you’re a conscientious worker. And a reliable one too. Despite all the negativity and bad jobs/coworkers, you show up and do the work. That’s a positive quality.

      a lot of my possibilities are likely in fields that may get hit hard soon

      Don’t borrow trouble from the future. I know it’s difficult, but remember that not all campaign promises become reality. Maybe the fields you’re looking in won’t be as badly hit as you fear.

      Best of luck with your search, and I hope you can enjoy your quiet breaks now that one of the Jerk Coworkers is gone!

      1. Chirpy*

        Thanks. I’ve literally just had another argument with my department head because I apparently didn’t read her mind on how to do freight (I was doing freight, just in a different order than she apparently wanted, but I do it this way because it’s easier for other people who sometimes help with certain larger items) and when I tried to explain this, she just brought up something I didn’t finish three months ago (I don’t remember why! it was 3 months ago! maybe I went home sick?) It’s just super frustrating.

        And I’m hoping none of the worst comes true, but, like, environmental jobs with the state DNR are not looking particularly stable right now.

    2. Former Young Lady*

      If your humility (a rare and valuable quality in this world, IMHO) is making it too hard to toot your own horn, you may have to trick yourself into it.

      One possible strategy: frame your elevator speeches and cover letters first around your ENTHUSIASM for the stuff that interests you, and then garnish with the details of your accomplishments in those areas. Make a hasty list of subjects you genuinely like to geek out on, and then look back over your past achievements and sort them into those bins.

      Remember, you’re doing everyone ELSE a favor by selling yourself well. The arrogantly-incompetent are just going to lie about being good at the same stuff you’re actually good at, so think of it as a public service.

      Finally, if you haven’t already reached out to your favorite references, now might be a good time to do it. Last time I was job-searching, it was because a toxic environment had gotten under my skin, and I was starting to question whether I deserved all the abuse because “I must really be just so bad that I bring out the worst in them.” Reaching out to my references — and having them all reply with enthusiasm — was like a break in the clouds.

      It’s really hard to assess ourselves objectively, which is why it’s so important to reach out to people you admire at times like this.

      Good luck, good person!

      1. Chirpy*

        Thanks. I don’t have great references, which is part of my problem (see: long list of toxic jobs, combined with the good references moving/ losing contact/dying). It’s just hard.

    3. LBD*

      What I see from my little place in the internet is that you are a thoughtful articulate person with excellent writing, grammer and communication skills. You seem like you are a mostly drama free worker (I don’t count drama directed at you from outside, but your internal approach) who wants to do well. If I was hiring, and you had the hard skills, I would consider myself lucky to have candidates like you.
      Good luck, I hope that you continue to find encouragement where and when you need it!

  44. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

    Husband got laid off yesterday :(

    We’re very lucky in that we can absolutely afford our lifestyle on my income alone, but there still so much logistical in making sure we clarify his severance, get the qualifying event documentation for my benefits, figure out his next steps…

    ugh! Right before the holidays too

    1. Name (Required)*

      I’m sorry. Hopefully you’ll be able to get everything done that needs to be done, and it will lead to bigger and better things for your family. Good for you for being able to afford your lifestyle on one income! That’s a rare thing.

    2. Rex Libris*

      That sucks. I guess try to be thankful that you’re in a position where he has the space to make a good decision about what to do next.

  45. Anon for this*

    I am really struggling to cope these last two weeks. My mental health is at a rock bottom. I am working with my therapist and doctor but for right now it takes next to nothing to make me cry and I can’t control it. I’m not breaking into sobs or anything but my eyes have welled up with tears or I’ve had tears falling down my face multiple times a day at work for the last two weeks. I always quickly go to the bathroom to wash my face and control myself and never make a scene, but I can tell my coworkers have noticed because my face turns beet red if I shed even one tear. Nobody has said anything, but I’m getting increasingly worried about how to address it if anybody does. I am doing everything I can think of to prevent it happening but I can’t seem to stop it from happening. All it takes is someone saying something with a slightly harsh tone, seeing something out the window, or just a passing thought in my head can set me off.

    Does anyone have any advice on managing this at work or how to address it if someone asks if I’m okay? Again, I am already closely working with a therapist and a doctor so no medical advice please.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      There was a past letter where a manager wrote in because a direct report cried at feedback. The report handled it really well:

      Every time she gets critical feedback (even very mild and accompanied by praise), she turns bright red and starts crying… like, a lot. Tears streaming down her face. Other than that, though, she responds calmly and rationally. She carries a handkerchief and just mops up the tears and continues the conversation. One of the first times this happened, I asked if she was okay, and she said that it’s “just a physical response to stress” and confided that she’s getting cognitive behavioral therapy to learn to control it. Honestly, I think she’s handling the whole thing with a lot of professionalism and maturity.

      I think you could say something similar, along the lines of “just a physical response, please [ignore the tears/give me a minute to compose myself in the bathroom].”

      The letter is “My employee cries whenever I give her feedback” from April 4, 2016 and there was an update on December 7, 2022. I will link to both in a follow-up comment.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Would it help to have a script ready in case a coworker says something? Sometimes the anticipation of awkward is worse than the actual awkward is.

      Or even send a quick text or email to your best ally — “Hey Fergus, just wanted to let you know that I’m going through some personal stuff. Being here at work is keeping my mind off it a bit, so I’m glad to be here, but I am fretting that the emotions are leaking out a bit. Don’t worry, I’ve got a good team working on it with me, but please excuse my occasional weirdness. And if you could drop a quiet word to Jane and John that things are ok, I’d really appreciate it.”

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      Are you in a position to take FMLA? I’m saying this not as medical advice, but to have a break from dealing with this particular stressor *at work* and give yourself space to find an approach that works for you while hopefully your work with your therapist and doctor results in some improvement overall. Rock bottom sounds like it’d be worth it to focus on that as much as you can, and remove the work piece for a little while.

      I’m sorry. Wishing you the best.

    4. anon24*

      This may sound weird, but you said you aren’t breaking into sobs or anything, so how calm can you be when you’re crying? I’m going through something similar, my stress levels are through the roof right now because of personal/financial stuff and I’ve been spiraling a bit. I’m usually really good at bottling, but I did spontaneously burst into tears the other day when my co-worker was talking to me. I was able to calmly give a “I’m sorry, [this] is happening in my life right now” and he said “oh, I’m so sorry” and we moved on.
      One of the supervisors also came up to me the next day and asked if I was ok and I just said “no, I’m not, but it’s fine. I’ve just got a lot going on right now.” The trick is to acknowledge that you aren’t yourself but also let them know that they don’t necessarily have to tip-toe around you and your emotions. I actually did end up going back to that supervisor a little later and we talked for awhile and I gave her more context about what was going on in my life, but she invited me to come talk, I’ve known her for awhile and I felt comfortable doing so. You certainly don’t have to if the relationship isn’t there.

    5. oh wow really anon for this one*

      So, I had a personal tragedy happen over the summer. I went back to work about 2 weeks afterward, but the way downtime is structured at my work meant that it wasn’t obvious since most people were off around that time. If I felt like someone noticed I was off (and I cared that they noticed) I would quickly explain that xyz happened and I was really happy to be back in the routine of work and felt like that would help me. As for people noticing that you’ve been crying, I dunno… I think there are a lot of reasons that a person’s face could look a little different, ranging from bad seasonal allergies to feeling warm. I have full-on sobbed a few times at work, for this and other reasons… I do have a small office but it has a window to the hall and sound can carry… but if people have noticed they’ve certainly never mentioned it/haven’t obviously treated me differently. Haven’t cried actually in front of anybody here though and intend to keep it that way.

  46. H.Regalis*

    Need to vent: I have a coworker who is extremely moody and takes out his bad moods on other people. He absolutely is aware of what he’s doing and can control his behavior because I’ve been on calls with him where he’s berating other people, and then his boss joined the call and he immediately stopped.

    He’s also extremely smart and helpful. If you’re having trouble with a technical issue, he will go to the ends of the earth to help you solve it; but his moodiness drives me up a wall. No one treats him the way he treats us. I talked to HR about it once and they told me if he’s being rude, I am 100% allowed to hang up on him. Everyone else just ignores his behavior.

    I like everything else about my job, Moody Melvin has actually helped me a lot with my work, but this can be so frustrating and I have no backup from anyone else in the department.

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      He does the “end of the earth” thing to make up for his behavior which is wrong and doesn’t work. I wouldn’t allow it. “Melvin, while its nice that you’re willing to do this to help us right now, what we’d really like is for you to consistently treat us respectfully.”

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      He does it to everyone, so you can just remind yourself “It’s not personal”?

      Moody Melvin is like that fancy color printer. When it works, it turns out amazing stuff. But it takes forever to warm up, it smells funny, the control panel is cryptic, and it’s an absolute pain to change the ink. If you’ve complained about the printer over and over, yet nobody is willing to replace the printer, no matter how much inconvenience it causes and how many other better options are out there, then that’s just the way your employer is going to be.

      You have to ask yourself how much energy to spend and stress to generate fretting about the printer, as opposed to just using it only when you really need it, and ignoring the smell as best you can.

  47. Derivative Poster*

    Any strategies for coping when a coworker is retiring soon and is mentally checked out? It has escalated from doing work poorly to saying in a meeting that they’re no longer doing work. I am perplexed by the latter: why not just skip the meeting, the purpose of which was assigning tasks? The situation will resolve itself within a few weeks, but I’d appreciate any tips that would help limit my frustration in the meantime.

    1. Tradd*

      I experienced this with a coworker about 10-11 years ago. She was retiring in a few months. She would fall asleep at her desk, absolutely refused to do anything but a very few strictly limited tasks she had been doing for years, flat out refused to help with the workload of a coworker whose father had died overseas (coworker was gone for about a month). I coped by waking her up when I walked by her desk (I always passed her desk on way t0/from copier, bathroom, etc.). Her actions made a lot of work for the rest of us. I was so glad when she retired.

    2. MsM*

      I think just pretend like they’re not already there to the best of your ability. Maybe have a word with their boss if you have a reason to talk to them or know they’re open to feedback to see whether the retiree really need to still be coming to meetings or even in the office if they feel like they’ve wrapped everything up, or at least to find out who you should be directing requests to since they’ve made it clear they’re not focused on that stuff any more.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      One classic coping technique is to set your internal monologue to “nature documentary narrator.” As an example:

      Today, we see that Retiring Alex has reached a new level of checked-out. They announced during the meeting that they are no longer doing work. Will Retiring Alex learn that they can skip these meetings in their remaining weeks at [Company]? Tune in next week to find out!

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      If you’re just trying to get through it mentally, I’d take Alison’s approach of surviving by pretending to be an anthropologist observing a new culture.

      “Wow, this way of conducting yourself is strange to me, but I must observe their ways whilst I live amongst them.”

      It distances yourself from the situation and places you outside it rather than in it. Maybe treat yourself to a “Jim stares into the camera” moment from time to time when no one’s looking.

      It’s only a few more weeks, good luck!

      1. LBD*

        Or buy an advent calendar and consider their last day in the office to be day 25. Eat a piece of cheap chocolate a day in honour of them leaving soon?

    7. Hyaline*

      I would just pretend they’re not there already (like, not in a “ignore them in the hallway” way, but don’t expect them to do any work). It’s frustrating, it’s poorly planned, it’s annoying–but they’ve basically told you what to expect, and you should probably believe them.

      It does kind of open the door to talk about transition a little earlier, though, if you haven’t already–“Hey Boss Person, with Jimbo pulling back on his responsibilities (or completely checked out, depending on how you want to phrase this), it’s making me realize that we’re going to have trouble with X, Y, and Z until we hire a replacement. Can we talk about plans for handling that?” Maybe just acknowledging it and having it acknowledged will help somewhat.

    8. Derivative Poster*

      Thanks for these suggestions! While reading them, I realized that, although I am frustrated, I’m also disappointed. This person is quite senior and highly respected. I haven’t worked with them for that long, but I’ve come to like and admire them also. So it’s hard to see this person who has been widely been regarded as a great teammate act in a way that seems so counter to their reputation.

      To be fair, they have also gone through some crises in their personal life lately that could distract anybody. I’m going to try to mentally connect their behavior with those events (even though they’re saying it’s because of the impending retirement). I hope that framing, combined with your advice, will keep me from losing my cool. Thanks again!

  48. DEI*

    Curious how out of the loop I am – my company defines DEI as Diversity, Engagement, and Inclusivity. I have always seen E = Equity for that acronym. As a result, when our DEI scores on a recent survey were low (due to sexism in the department), our leaders think the solution is more engagement activities like department town halls.

    I’m not getting involved because I’ve lost that battle and will have a new job soon. But I’m trying to figure out if I’m being overly judgy on E = Engagement rather than Equity?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      That’s a weird one. But I’ve seen the acronym mutating in the wild in other ways too.

      Like I mentioned in another thread, actions are more important than words. “Call town halls instead of directly addressing sexism” is a bad idea, regardless of what label they slap on it.

      1. Procedure Publisher*

        If the engagement is designed to address the problems, maybe it would be alright. But that is a maybe leaning towards no.

      2. DEI*

        I think the incorrect acronym is a large part of why we’re getting weird suggestions. You solve an Equity problem very differently than an Engagement problem.

    3. Rex Libris*

      I’ve always seen it as Equity. I’m a cynical soul, so my first thought is that equity is a word they must really want to avoid.

    4. Elsewise*

      No, you’re absolutely right to be judgy, and I’m right there with you.

      (Also, either this is more widespread than I thought, or I might have a friend at your company. She is also looking to leave.)

    5. Former Young Lady*

      If you’re being overly judgy, sounds like you can come sit at the Overly Judgy table with me!

      Dropping “equity” basically signals “We’re going to continue promoting and compensating the demographics that remind us of ourselves, but hey! Look how diverse the rank-and-file are!”

      Substituting “engagement” is also giving “Now that we have such a diverse rank-and-file, how can we motivate them to do extra non-promotable tasks, sacrifice work-life balance, and most importantly, validate our Old Boys Club feelings?”

      To me (an admittedly curmudgeonly, judgy-judging-judge-head), this smells like expecting loyalty to flow 100% in a single direction. I don’t like it!

    6. Good Enough For Government Work*

      I have also known it as Equality, but it is categorically NOT Engagement. That doesn’t even make any sense with the rest of the acronym! ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHERS, KIDS

      1. ABC123*

        Yeah I would say that makes no sense.

        I’m assuming they mean “we need to ‘engage’ with our underrepresented/marginalized coworkers to learn how their experience affects…”. But I would think that is covered under the I?

    7. Nightengale*

      It’s equity as long as I’ve been engaged in DEI efforts

      Diversity – we have a diverse group of people here
      Inclusion – all people are part of “here” on a fundamental and meaningful level, not just at entry level, not only when we need a photo op
      Equity – all people here are treated fairly and equitably and we actively try to counter inequitable treatment

        1. Nightengale*

          I mean, there’s no DEI court to rule definitely on the issue

          But I would say a place that talks about DEI but has no real diversity among upper leadership. . . probably has a ways to go.

  49. Cat Lady*

    Looking for some advice on a situation and I’m not sure how to feel. I’ve been at my job for a year and a half, and in that time, I have really turned my program around. I’ve gotten good feedback from our business partners and an “exceeds expectations” performance review. My workload has also increased significantly. The number of direct reports I have over doubled (I had 5 when I started and now I have 12, soon to be 13). I also took on managing an additional location. As a result, I asked my boss for a raise in July due to my workload increasing and I also provided her with a document that laid out my actions and results I have achieved.

    Shortly after my ask, I asked my boss about getting a raise for one of my direct reports who has done really stellar work. She said that she would ask HER boss but didn’t want to ask for my raise and my employee’s raise and the same time. I told her to ask for my employee’s raise first. What else was I supposed to say?! Fast forward to this past week and my boss tells me that I will be getting a cost of living increase, along with everyone else. She sort of hemmed and hawed and said that she could still ask for the raise I had initially asked for after seeing how I felt but it came across like she just didn’t want to do it.

    I guess I’m feeling guilty going back and asking for more. The cost of living adjustment was 9% this year, but it was only so high because they are taking away our 7.5% bonus (which isn’t ever guaranteed). It seems like a larger bump than it is, and I feel like it’s harder to justify going back and asking for more because I’m not actually sure how much more I am making from the cost of living adjustment. I go back and forth between being irritated at my boss and feeling like I have it good and should just keep my mouth shut. Any advice?

    1. Name (Required)*

      Try to figure out how much others in your position are making and use that data, if it’s more than your current salary. You can use BLS or Salary.com to get salary data, and/or your industry may publish salary data.

    2. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

      Your boss sounds like a wimp. Doesn’t want to ask for two raises at once? You’re managing multiple people! Of course things are going to come up that affect more than one employee at a time. I’d go back to her and say you don’t understand the one-at-a-time approach. You did way more work than you were before and deserve to be compensated. Your employee did an awesome job and deserves to be compensated. A wimpy boss will do your bottom line long-term harm if you let her.

  50. Pear Blossom*

    A little over a year ago, we sent out an email to over 30K sites asking them to confirm or update their site contact(s). It was a pretty successful project and the majority responded.

    To this day, some 55 weeks later, I still get emails responding to the original email. Sometimes they just say “confirmed” and other times it has an actual update. After the 4 month mark, I was surprised people were still responding, but now…it gives me a chuckle every time! I can’t believe people are still replying to the original email!

    1. Hotdogs galore*

      I mean, I know sometimes I forget to follow up on something, but if I missed an email a year ago it’s GONE. Who has “go through flagged emails and take care of outstanding items” on their ANNUAL to-do list?

  51. Robin*

    I’m just… really done with this co-worker. They absolutely will not respond to emails or phone calls, I’m required to get feedback from them before I can move forward with several time-sensitive projects, I have literally zero power or authority to get them to do anything they don’t want to, and my boss’s only response when I ask what he wants me to do is “keep emailing them, I guess?” This project has literally been delayed by a full month because they won’t answer the email. The client is perfectly polite to me but also very obviously fed up with the situation, and I don’t blame them.

    I know why I’m not allowed to give the client the specialist’s work phone number and let them deal with the weekly phone calls about the delay, but it gets more tempting every time.

  52. Procedure Publisher*

    For job seekers, how do you handle your job alerts, especially when those alerts overlap?

    I have multiple alerts (probably too many) and that means I see the same job listed more than once. Most of my alerts only list job title, company, and location. One has a snippet of text from the JD. Another lists skills tagged for that job. When I see a job that I think I’ve already seen, I always check it because I have doubts that I didn’t see this exact position.

    I know I want to get rid of a few of my job alerts, but I haven’t decided which ones. Google has a job alert that has helped me find a job that my other job alerts didn’t find.

    For what it’s worth, I have been getting contacted by recruiters for positions that have yet to be posted publicly yet.

  53. Anon and on and on*

    Resume question that I will preface by saying I have looked on the site and haven’t been able to find an exact answer.

    I started a role with a new company long enough ago that it should go on my resume. The title is similar to my previous title. At my last job I was a Senior Tea Blender and at this one I’m a Senior Breakfast Tea Blender. However, Old Job was structured Tea Blender -> Sr Tea Blender -> Lead Tea Blender, and new job is structured Breakfast Tea Blender I -> Breakfast Tea Blender II -> Senior Tea Blender -> Lead Tea Blender.

    The expected years of experience and responsibilities for a Senior Blender at my old role mirrors the responsibilities associated with Breakfast Tea Blender II, whereas my new role is at a higher level responsibility and more years of experience, similar to Lead at my old company (The Lead Tea Blender grade at old job was incredibly wide, so while there is not a 1-to-1 translation at my new role, Lead at my new company is the equivalent of someone who had been in that role a long time and had taken on additional responsibilities).

    How do I communicate on a resume that my new role is more than just a lateral move? (Obviously, I am happy in my new role and don’t plan to send out my resume any time soon, but I like keeping it up to date, and I’ve been in this role long enough that I feel like it’s time to add it)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Titles are fungible. Responsibilities aren’t.

      Newjob inc – Senior Breakfast Tea Blender
      Identified and negotiated alternate sources for bergamot and 3 other botanical flavorings
      Prepared annual analysis of market trends
      Developed and managed 8 custom blends

      Oldjob inc – Senior Tea Blender
      …

  54. *daha**

    My question, is suppose, is – is there any business setting anywhere in the world where this reply from HR makes sense?
    I work in a manufacturing sector plant. Production workers are either laborers or operators, and I’m an operator. The company’s website lists an opening for an operator. The announcement says “Pay $18-23 per hour.” Well, I’ve been here two years, have had two annual raises, and I’m making $17.90/hour. I wrote to HR with an “I’m sure you want to correct this error” approach, and asked for the base pay of $18 plus the two merit raises I’ve received, to bring me to $18.90 an hour.
    Here’s the HR response:
    “The pay that is listed on the advertisement for the position is not always what someone is going to get paid for the position. This is not the starting pay for the position either just because it is the lowest pay on the posting. The range gives a range of pay and does not guarantee $18.00/hr for starting for the position.”
    What the hell?

    1. Strive to Excel*

      Your HR is full of unethical marketers. Most people would assume the same as yours and if they were then offered 17.90 an hour it would be considered a bait and switch. IDK if it’s outright illegal or just unethical but it would rub me the wrong way.

      “What the hell” is on-point.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I think the translation of that into plain English is “we put $18-23/hr on the ad so people will apply for this job. If we offer them a job, it’ll be for $16/hr* and we will be confused anytime someone turns down this offer. We will not be increasing your pay based on the job ad because the range on the ad is a lie.”

      *anything less than $18/hr

      1. Sir Booyah*

        I am thinking that this is a “nobody wants to work any more” kind of company that is constantly running help wanted ads, too.

    3. Qwerty*

      They are saying they are looking to hire someone with more skill or experience than you (or more than they feel you have). The weird last line is saying that they might lower their standards which would come would a lower wage that corresponds to their skills.

      Jobs often have unofficial levels within them, and those often correspond to pay. So even though two people may have the same title, one may have more skills or experience or is able to mentor other teammates, etc.

      If we went back in time to the beginning, I would have recommended asking your boss for the overall payband for the role as your starting point, because it is probably something broad like $16-25. Then had a follow up conversation asking what is different that they are looking for in the new role and actively listening to the response. Or even changing the request to HR to be at their minimum ($18) rather than trying to apply your past raises to it.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If your state has salary transparency, check what the rules are. Your Dept of Labor’s wage & hours team might be interested in such shenanigans.

      1. A Significant Tree*

        Hard agree, this sounds unethical if not illegal. It’s not clear if it would meet the letter of a salary transparency law (e.g. the loopholes that allow posting of ranges like “$17,000 – $250,000” for one role) but it sure doesn’t meet the intent. I’m sorry they’re avoiding your legitimate raise request with such nonsense.

    5. HonorBox*

      Two things you can do at the same time:
      1. Ask HR if they’re looking for different qualifications than you have in this new position.
      2. Ask your colleagues what they’re being paid. There should be some sort of consistency based on time served and responsibilities. If there’s some variation, that’s probably reasonable. But if everyone else is making $19-$21/hour and you’re still at $17.90 that’s harder to justify.

      Do you have a union? If so, they might be interested to know that the company may very well be advertising pay incorrectly. As might your state labor board.

    6. Kay*

      This is the age old issue of just because they are offering to pay X to hire someone new doesn’t mean they are going to change the pay of everyone in the company to X as well.

      It is never good for morale, but sounds like that is the mindset of the company you are dealing with.

  55. Academic Anon*

    I hope this qualifies as a work question, since it is my work retirement fund. Not to dig too deep into politics, but has anyone decided to shift their retirement investments? I am planning on retiring in 2 years, 9 months and five days, so any economic chaos between now and then will most likely downgrade my retirement funds. Currently I have about a third locked down into a version of annuity (I know, I know, people don’t like annuities), but am considering locking down 2/3rds since that will give me a baseline to live. I am in higher ed, so am feeling the target on our backs. I have an appointment with TIAA/Cref next week and am trying to get a feeling of what I should do.

    1. anon for this*

      Am considering moving a big chunk of my $ into cash equivalents. I know I will lose out on some highs but I don’t have time to weather the lows.

    2. anon for this*

      I am looking into moving a chunk of my retirement $ into cash equivalents. I know I will miss some highs, but I don’t have time to make up for lows. I’m trying to get an appointment with our advisor too! Your baseline thinking is kind of where I’m at: if I kept X in the stock market and it tanks for 10 years, I still have Y in cash and can subsist. Of course, I was counting on social security, too, and now I’m not. So maybe that Y number needs to be bigger.

    3. noname today*

      Hubby had a great retirement convo with TIAA—they are pros and really made great suggestions for his post-work portfolio. He sweetly included me in the convos and I had A Lot of questions—which they went to great pains to address. Hubby took most—but not all—of their recommendations and has been monitoring (and happy with) the results for the past 5 mos.

      Long way of saying meet with them, and see when they recommend. They’ll run a few models for you to review afterwards/before you meet again

    4. Girasol*

      I have. I’m post-retirement. I have always leaned toward higher risk in my 401K/IRA selections, and until now have evaded annuities, thinking that social security is very much like an annuity. But with the new administration’s promise to reduce social security, I just invested in a small traditional annuity. With predictions of economic upset from some of the new government initiatives, I’ve shifted the IRA from higher risk to a more cautious risk level suitable for my age: less stock more bond. No big changes – one should never try to time the market – but some minor adjustments. The changes fit the advise that my advisor at Fidelity (who is more cautious than I am) has been recommending for some time anyway.

    5. Generic Name*

      Given that the markets surged upon news of his election and that he is a rich man who enacts policies benefitting the rich (whose wealth typically comes from investments rather than earned income), I wouldn’t be too quick to cash out from stocks and miss out on a surging stock market out of fear. I’d talk to a financial advisor and get their take.

    6. BigLawEx*

      I’ll pass on the advice I got from my retirement portfolio advisor last week. (I’m looking at 3 y, 6 mo.)

      First, he says any huge market dips have never taken more than seven years to ‘correct.’ So if you can ‘risk’ that other portion – to use later, while using the safer portion earlier, then it’s theoretically better to leave the portion you don’t immediately need in something likely to give you a higher yield in the long term.

      Your advisor should ask you this, but the questions I need to answer are: what are your retirement needs? What big even could change your income needs?

  56. I'm right on top of that Rose!*

    Lunch Room Etiquette question:

    Can I make a frozen pizza in the toaster oven? Most people just use the microwave. But there is a toaster oven just sitting there. Or is that too close to cooking something in the kitchenette?

    1. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

      Yes! You can use the toaster oven. I read this as “toaster” and thought oh no, the cheese. But toaster oven? Where you can lay the pizza flat? Sure!

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      That seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Just make sure that you clean up any sauce drips or grease splatters, so tomorrow’s breakfast toast doesn’t smell and taste like pepperoni.

    3. Toast!*

      perfectly reasonable. I’ve used ours for toasted cheese!
      only thing is to make sure you aren’t using it for a long time and holding up someone who just wants a quick toast

    4. I'm right on top of that Rose!*

      Thank You!
      Yes the pizza is laying flat. I’m not trying to put a slice in the actual toaster.
      It’s only going to be 10-15min. And the only catch is you can’t use the microwave and the toaster oven at the same time (you’ll blow a fuse). But I’ll make sure it’s at a time where other people aren’t trying to use the micro.

    5. Unkempt Flatware*

      Don’t Tell Mom is my all time favorite movie. Well done. I say instead of pizza for lunch, crawl around on the floor eating the jar of fallen M&Ms.

  57. anon for this*

    I want to retire. I’m not quite where I need/want to be financially, but could probably make the $ work. What I can’t make work is insurance. I am basically tied to my job for the insurance, which covers me, my spouse, and an adult child for a few more years (thank you, Obama! not sarcastically!). No idea what’s about to happen but if I can no longer cover kiddo, and Medicare goes away? I feel utterly trapped. Am I going to be working until I’m 80? I’m in pretty good health! But the cost of even basic care is too much without insurance. I need to figure out how to fund this.

    1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Is there any way you could move to part-time? That might help take some of the pressure off and keep you enrolled in your insurance.

    2. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      When I retired early, I was lucky that my university offered the health insurance to retired faculty – I pay a little more than I did when I was working, but I have the insurance until I’m old enough for Medicare. Does your company offer something similar?

      How good are the ACA plans in your state? Could you swing one of those?

    3. Generic Name*

      Medicare is not going away. Too many old (and rich) people who are happily covered by it also voted for trump. They will speak up if t tries anything with their Medicare. Remember when bush II campaigned on privatizing social security and then ion day one of his second term said, “okay, let’s privatize social security!”? There was a huge uproar and it didn’t happen.

  58. Edna*

    Is a late paycheck always a terrible sign?

    I should have been paid today but wasn’t. I asked around and my coworkers didn’t get their checks either. I asked our operations manager and he told me there has been a problem with the third party payroll company (a change in how our company is required to pay the third party) and it should be resolved by Tuesday. His story sounds plausible, but I’m unnerved. No one seems to be treating this like the emergency I think “whole staff not paid on time” should be. I have no idea what the company’s finances are like. Am I a fool if I take them at their word that this is a one off situation? My current plan is to get my resume, etc in tip top shape and start applying elsewhere if I’m not paid by Tuesday, but I really like this job.

    1. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

      Ooo. That is bad. You had to ask? I would expect a company-wide email profusely apologizing for the mix up and maybe pizza in the break room on every floor. It could be a glitch, but it is super weird that it’s being treated so casually. Has a “nothing to see here!” ring to it that would unnerve me.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Forget pizza, they need to offer to manually cut a check for anyone who asks. (In some states, late pay can open an org up to legal liability.)

        And they should have let everyone know the minute they knew it wasn’t going to be fixed before payday was over.

        I worked somewhere that this happened (not their fault, but due to a vendor’s system failure). They weren’t a great company, but they got on it and communicated right away. (We were in multiple states, and one had very strong labor laws around this situation. We also had a union. Not sure if they would have done as much without those two factors.)

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          In some states, late pay is considered equivalent to no pay. My understanding (which could be wrong!) is that you are therefore entitled to essentially double pay—keep the late pay, I assume, and your employer must issue you the pay you were due in the pay date. Definitely look into the protections your state has by searching for “[state] department of labor late pay”.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s a bad sign that they didn’t immediately notify everybody of this problem. Some people might expect that money to hit today in order to pay for mortgage or other big bills that are automatic deductions.

      Option a: company is financially sound and this was an innocent miscommunication with payer: lack of notification is bad.

      Option b: company is financially sound and they completely screwed up with the payer, or they chose an incompetent payer: lack of notification is bad, financial management is bad.

      Option c: company is not financially sound and they are lying to you about what happened: lack of notification is bad, financial management is bad, company balance sheet is bad.

      There are probably other possibilities but they all at least have the red flag of “no notification”. Your ops manager, CFO, and CEO should have all been mortified by this mistake.

      1. Edna*

        That’s where I keep landing too – the best case scenario still implies some poor judgment from management. Thanks for confirming.

    3. Rex Libris*

      Barring any other red flags, I wouldn’t necessarily think it’s a terrible sign. It’s not a great look that they don’t seem more urgent about getting it fixed, but realistically it’s Friday and there is a weekend coming up, so it might be the best they can do. We’ve had a couple of payroll processing issues over the years due to the third party company screwing up, and it’s generally been resolved by the end of the next business day, but our payroll runs mid-week.

      1. Edna*

        That’s a good perspective to hear, thanks. I’m unnerved that no one seems to be taking it more seriously, but maybe they just consider it the kind of accident that happens occasionally.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      I think your plan is a smart one. Payroll is a big deal and companies should treat paying people on time seriously. But sometimes things do get messed up and delayed. I don’t like that there was no company-wide communication about this and you had to go to the operations manager to get the scoop. If your paycheck comes through OK on Tuesday, keep an eye on the next scheduled paycheck after that. If that paycheck is on-time, it probably was an error with the payroll company. If that paycheck is also delayed, I would start applying for jobs.

    5. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Missing payroll is a huge deal. I’d be watching very closely to look for any other signs of instability even if they make payroll on Tuesday.

    6. Unkempt Flatware*

      It is a very big deal. I’ve had a job like this just once. They seemed to think it was okay to say things like, “oh the accountant was off today, sorry”. Nope. I didn’t show up for work again until I got paid.

      Try me. I dare you. – Me definitely.

    7. Rara Avis*

      Once in 24 years my company had an issue with payroll, and we got an immediately notification and an offer of some sort of advance/other payment from a different source if the missing paycheck would make any auto payments of ours bounce.

      1. Global Cat Herder*

        Years ago, my company had some kind of snafu with the payroll processor that meant we would get paid a couple days late. We had multiple company-wide emails as they worked through it, offers of cash advances and/or grocery store gift cards, massive plates of cookies in the break room. The day the payroll was actually released, we had multiple emails to please check our online balances and make sure we’d gotten the direct deposits, who to contact if we still had issues, offers to pay bounced check fees, and more offers of cash advances if we hadn’t seen the money yet.

        Not paying people should be a HUGE DEAL.

    8. Qwerty*

      Since this issue happened at the same time as a change of process in the third party, I personally would not be too worried. Companies suck at change.

      However, it never hurts to have an up to date resume and to know your options, so nothing wrong with your plan.

    9. Hazel*

      Problems happen, but the response is concerning. At the very least everyone should be told when pay is expected and that they can get a cheque to tide them over if that’s possible, it certainly would make many people default of mortgages etc. In many places is illegal to withhold pay, and the pay would have to cut cheques, sometimes slightly approximated for deductions. It seems less likely the company is going under and more that they are ignorant and careless.

    10. HonorBox*

      While not an end of the world terrible sign, it isn’t a good sign.

      I once had a situation like this arise with our payroll company. Don’t remember the specifics, but there was a technical glitch where direct deposit was hitting accounts on a Monday instead of Friday. As soon as I realized it (because it happened to me too) I went to everyone in the office – it was a small office – and apologized. I also offered to cut a hand-written check if there was going to be any sort of problem this caused and people wanted that check Friday.

      The fact that the issue occurred is worrisome. The fact that they didn’t proactively let people know when they clearly knew about the problem is more of the worry. Take this as solid evidence that there are some issues. It might be as minor as issues with someone not submitting documents correctly once to as major as the company has some larger financial issues. I think if you don’t have resolution Tuesday, you should ask for a physical check from the company. You might also want to look up your state’s laws related to late pay and what the company might owe you.

    11. pally*

      Yes to Pocket Mouse’s suggestion to google late pay penalty.
      This is a big deal.

      Twice at work here (over 20+ years) someone missed a deadline and the paychecks were late. We received the Friday paycheck the following Monday. AND, there was an extra $100 in that late paycheck. Per California law.

    12. Decidedly Me*

      I wouldn’t jump to thinking this is a cash flow issue, especially if it’s never happened before. Payroll can have tech issues, too. A previous company had different payroll systems for their different locations (global company). One area had continued payroll issues (which was NOT ok), but it was never a cash flow issue. However, the company wasn’t proactive in mentioning the issues, which was the actual problem. It was a very clear “we care less about employees in this locale”.

    13. Rain Cat*

      It’s not a great sign, but payroll problems do happen. If not paid on Monday, I would report to your local labor board. Years ago we discovered a Friday payroll problem late in the day and our 3rd party processor couldn’t fix it before the weekend. Most folks got paid on Monday, a few on Tuesday. The company paid late fees for any employees who brought proof that they bounced a check or incurred other financial penalty. We also switched to running
      payroll on Wed with payout on Fri to give us time to fix problems if they happened again.

    14. Kay*

      Yes. Not always a “the doors are closing” terrible, but at minimum a “we didn’t properly manage the single most important thing to our employees” terrible. If your company had any kind of change with the payroll company, as with any big important change, this should have been monitored very closely to ensure everything went smoothly. That didn’t happen. Then when the error was discovered it should have been remedied immediately. Tuesday when you should have been paid Friday is too long. You should at least have been paid Monday. The fact that they knew about ALL of this, yet didn’t tell everyone!! Beyond the pale in my opinion. This is a Friday, it is also the 15th – this means there is a weekend of spending, the 15th is when many bills are due, and that they would have an extra 2 business day delay in addition to the weekend is just… wow.

    15. fhqwhgads*

      Highly sus that they’re saying “by Tuesday”. Should’ve been paid today but error made it not happen? Should be fixed within 24 hours. And they should’ve told everyone the second they were aware of the issue, not waited for you to ask and only answered then.

  59. Chronic Baddie*

    How do I learn to do less?

    I have been a stellar performer my entire career, I’ve always received excellent feedback and I pride myself in how quickly I can pick up and deliver. I was a rockstar, I had people asking me how I found the time and energy and my answer was just that I deeply enjoyed the work and it gave me the energy.

    And then three years ago I got COVID and then long-COVID. Now I struggle daily with fatigue, pain, and nausea, and I just plain can’t sustain the same level of involvement. I tried for nearly three years to be my old self and it leads to burnout, sickness, and has even landed me in the ER. I finally realize that I can’t go on like this, but I’m so entrenched in my old way of work that it seems impossible to change.

    My fellow recovering over-achievers: How do I learn to do less? Or to move slower? I have built up enough good will at work that I don’t think anyone will question my capabilities, so this is purely for me. I need to learn to slow down but I don’t know how.

    1. Dinwar*

      I’m definitely in your boat. I recently changed roles, from a “Do whatever the job takes” role to a “We expect 40 hours a week, if you go over there’s a problem” role. Going from 60+ hours a week to 40 is…weird. Feels like I’m slacking off.

      There are a few tips I’ve come across:

      –Don’t take on new roles any time soon. Learn what you’re capable of, and work to stay within it. It’ll feel like you’re not doing enough, but that’s because your perception is distorted. It’s like when you drive down the road, and when you stop it still looks like the road is moving; it’s an illusion, from your brain trying to guess at outcomes.

      –Make a list of what actually needs done each day/week/whatever, and learn to be satisfied as long as you accomplish that. At least for me, I tend to define “working hard enough” as “pushing hard enough to get stuff done”. My boss doesn’t; she wants me to accomplish X, Y, and Z, and get 40 hours, while still having energy to survive. It’s a shift in mentality.

      –Develop some hobbies or activities outside work. This sounds contradictory to the first point, but it doesn’t need to be. I at least feel that time not doing something is time wasted, and I’ve found that if I have something to do I don’t have that guilt. It can be small–I crochet while watching TV in the evenings, for example, which is sufficient to scratch the “I must be productive at all times!!!” itch.

      –Listen to what others say. If your boss is satisfied with the work you’re doing, you’re good. It’s a species of arrogance to presume that only you get a say in whether or not your work is good enough; be humble enough to accept the judgment of those who’s job is to judge you in this. (This advice came to me, in modified form, from a knight in the SCA.)

      –Be kind to yourself. You’re re-wiring the most complex computer we’re aware of, from the inside, via hormonal feedback loops you only control indirectly; it’s gonna take a while and you’ll have backslides and moments of “Am I just being lazy?” It’s normal, expected, and part of the process.

    2. Pam Adams*

      A lot of it is accepting that you are a different person now- someone with disabilities. Think seriously about what you can do on a regular basis, and coordinate your work to that. In my ca, I’ve become a subject matter expert. Pl people with more energy can lead initiatives, but I am there in support

    3. Hermione Danger*

      Your value is not tied to your output. You have intrinsic value as a human being.

      That is the thing I have to keep reminding myself of as I recover from a lifetime of setting myself on fire to keep others warm. I have found that **for me** my overachieving was coming from a place of having to prove the validity of my existence. I was not worth anything if I wasn’t sacrificing myself completely for the sake of my company and my coworkers and our clients.

      This may not be the core belief underlying your struggles, but I can guarantee you have some belief about your value and your contributions that is fueling your need to keep working at the same pace, even if you literally can’t. Addressing that, through therapy, coaching or just some serious introspection will help you make the shift.

    4. Qwerty*

      I’ve been asking myself the same question. I think there needs to be a mourning process for Old Self.

      Something that’s been helping me lately is planning chill activities after work. Usually it is getting drinks with my parents or watching TV together. It is good for my soul and also disconnects me from work. Completely dropping the ball and realizing the world did not burn down has helped.

      I’m slowly learning to lean on others. I have a team member who is like how I used to be – always picking up balls that are dropping, incredibly eager and energized by work. Mentoring him is helping a lot with letting go.

      For now, I’m trying to direct my energy to non-work things like volunteering. Those groups are so thrilled at any help that a small amount of effort makes a big difference. I don’t feel the same need to do Everything All At Once for those groups like I do for work.

    5. Can't remember my username*

      There is so much good advice here, as someone in a not entirely dissimilar position, I am still trying to get to grips with this.
      A tiny thing I’ve found helps is to do lists with limited space, and split into critical, would be nice, and low chance of happening.
      It forces me to prioritise, and to limit how much I am trying to do.

    6. Brevity*

      Spoon Theory helped me a lot, mostly because it gave me an “official” reference i could use if anyone yelled at me for not doing enough. Which of course no one did, but that was the fear I needed to alleviate. Look it up on Wikipedia if you’re not familiar.

  60. Sigh*

    Old role keeps asking me for help.
    I moved to a completely different part of the org for a promotion and to get the heck out of my old dept. I was the only one in that dept with my skills/responsibilities, (my backup left 6mo before and wasn’t replaced).

    I gave 1mo notice and wrapped up certain tasks for a while after that. My work was inherited by a different dept (not my new role or my old one – don’t ask). The head of the inheriting dept is an absolute jerk and rudely dismissed every attempt (written or mtg) to explain the status of the projects he would be getting.

    Now he wants me to help, and if I dare defer (to focus on my day job), he goes to my manager to ask for my help. My manager knows that I don’t like this guy, but mgr (rightfully) wants to keep good relationships with everyone, AND I don’t want to leave my old dept stranded. I get that we never know whose help you need tomorrow, but would love for him to have his comeuppance.

    I’ll never have the satisfaction of telling JerkVP off. But please would love to hear folks fantasy “go jump on a lake” comments/scripts !

    1. MsM*

      Do you think you can explain to New Manager that it’s going to harm your relationship with this department if a) you can’t focus on the work you’re here to do because Old Manager regrets not having accepted your help when you had the bandwidth to offer it, and b) Old Manager continues to have this degree of control over your time, period?

      1. Sigh*

        It’s not old manager. Old manager knows better ! It’s the jerk VP of a 3rd dept who inherited my work. If he wasn’t a jerk, I’d find the time.

        New manager and I have discussed it, but his take has always been to ask me to ‘play nicely anyways’. Which I do, but deprives me of the unprofessional satisfaction of telling JerkVP a few things straight.

        1. Global Cat Herder*

          I had something very similar until, based on what I’ve learned from AAM, I made my new manager feel the pain too. “Which of the things currently on my plate do you want me to take off / deprioritize in order to do this thing that Dept3 is responsible for doing?” Every time.

          Eventually CCed my boss on every email with Dept3. He had no idea how many requests there were or how often (or how rude they were) and shut it down after that.

    2. JustMyImagination*

      Sounds like it’s been going on several months. Can you just start getting fuzzy on details so your help is not as helpful? He’s accustomed to going to you for answers because you keep giving them to him. If you start forgetting things and he has to figure things out on his own, he’ll phase out going to you for help.

    3. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Honestly, I think it’s just time for you to ignore the jerk.

      For the fantasy reply, something along the lines of “I tried to give you this info before I left, but you didn’t want it. It’s no longer my problem, it’s yours. FAFO.”

    4. Bike Walk Barb*

      Has it been long enough that you can say “My knowledge on this really isn’t current any more and I need this to transition to the people who are working on it day to day”?

      I’m lucky not to have needed scripts like this in a big way. There is one recurring pattern (recently came up yet again) and I felt/squelched the urge to say, “How many times are we going to send you drafts to review, you’re not going to respond to those, then at the eleventh hour you’re going to raise an issue that requires a meeting with several people to work through something you could have said 6-9 months ago? We do in fact keep working without your input and next time this train isn’t going to stop at this station.” But this isn’t someone who can actually be ignored so the train will keep pulling in and stopping with that tired wheezing sound.

  61. Frustrated manager*

    How can I have the “you can’t care more about the job than I do” conversation as a manager (the other side of the often given advice ‘you can’t care more about the job than the company does’, except in this case the “not-caring” is correct)?

    My direct report stresses herself out, even to the point of tears a few times, over things like internal deadlines that are not set in stone. Say as part of a project we agree we will aim to complete a task by next Friday, but accept there is enough uncertainty that it can potentially be another week, so the Friday deadline is just a “nice to have”. I’ve explained this to her, but she freaks out about not meeting the original deadline and that if we keep “missing our targets” we are going to be laid off or fired. I’ve tried explaining that those are just soft/stretch deadlines that we are only about 30% confident of meeting, and I just get “but the higher ups want us to meet that deadline! So it looks bad when we don’t!” etc. She works through lunch and stays late etc when it is not really needed.

    I made the mistake (?) of saying that level of commitment isn’t expected or required at her level, as the leader of this area I have more context on what deadline is or isn’t important to meet, etc. But I feel like she “Knows Best” (thinks she does) and is saying in essence “I don’t trust your judgement and I know better”.

    She produces good work and I don’t have any performance issues with her (other than this situation is potentially a performance issue in itself, as she is stressing out other people by proxy).

    What would you do/say?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think the “level of commitment” approach is wrong. There are people who place an inherent moral value on all of this stuff, and trying to get your report to change her system of ethics is not going to work.

      This is a conversation about “you have a misunderstanding about how we here at Acme Llamatronics set deadlines and goals, how we talk about them, and how we evaluate individual and group performance. And in fact, the way you’ve made several assumptions and misinterpretations about that have created the risk that overall productivity might be lower.”

      How long has she been in the workforce, at your company, and in your reporting chain?

    2. Hlao-roo*

      My first thought is: can you call these “nice-to-have” dates instead of “deadlines” or “targets”? As in “the nice-to-have date for Task X is next Friday. Is Task X on track to be completed by next Friday or will it take longer?” That might help emphasize that there are no bad consequences from missing those dates.

      I’m not a manager but these past posts are similar to some areas of this situation and might be helpful to how you frame the conversation with your employee:

      For the “stop over-working” part of the conversation:

      “my employee keeps working long hours even though I’ve asked him to stop” from April 29, 2015

      “how can I convince my employee not to work until 2 AM?” from February 23, 2015

      “how can I convince my employee not to work until 2 AM?” from January 26, 2022

      For the “stressing out your coworkers is not professional” part of the conversation:

      “how to manage a difficult employee who does good work” from February 13, 2014

      And this post is about an employee who was anxious about money in a somewhat similar way to how your employee is anxious about deadlines, so the general approaches in the advice might be helpful to you:

      “my employee is overly budget-conscious and freaks out when we spend money” from July 16, 2019

      I will link to all of the above posts in a follow-up comment.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Over-working posts:

        https://www.askamanager.org/2015/04/my-employee-keeps-working-long-hours-even-though-ive-asked-him-to-stop.html

        https://www.askamanager.org/2021/02/how-can-i-convince-my-employee-not-to-work-until-2-am.html

        https://www.askamanager.org/2022/01/my-employee-keeps-working-long-hours-even-after-weve-told-her-to-stop.html

        Professional relationships with coworkers post:

        https://www.askamanager.org/2014/02/how-to-manage-a-difficult-employee-who-does-good-work.html

        Anxiety post:

        https://www.askamanager.org/2019/07/my-employee-is-overly-budget-conscious.html

      2. MsM*

        Or “soft deadlines” versus “hard deadlines,” and find a way to mark them differently in your tracking system.

        But yeah, I think at least some of those links suggest getting away from the “you don’t need to be working this hard” framing, and making it more of a “it is actually a concrete performance requirement that you not be working overtime on things that don’t require you to be working overtime.”

    3. Box of Kittens*

      Is it feasible to change deadlines for her to something more concrete? I love the soft/hard deadline differentiation someone else mentioned, but it also might be worth setting her deadlines as “hard” deadlines and leaving her off the soft deadlines. Maybe your team’s work is not structured like that but it could be worth it to edit the job for her a little bit, as long as the rest of her performance is good.

    4. RagingADHD*

      First, I think you need to directly address the unauthorized overtime and agitating / disrupting the coworkers as behaviors that need to stop, period.

      Then have a conversation about the misunderstanding over what is a target and what is a buffer, and that the buffer exists to prevent unnecessary overtime / frantic. Along with that, a terminology change would be good so that you are always clarifying every time it comes up that the official due date is Y, and your own buffer is that you would like to have it by X.

      1. Just Checking*

        Because I have worked places with real lacks of clarity about things like this: Do you sometimes have deadlines that ARE real deadlines, which might not be 100% clear to people who aren’t looped in on everything? Maybe the terminology isn’t clear surrounding the different dates. Also, is everyone is on the same page about which deadlines are hard and soft and buffers, etc.?

        I swear I’ve seen every permutation of this: situations where most deadlines were considered buffers, but suddenly a deadline was a real critical deadline, and people didn’t realize that. Projects stalled terribly because so many people thought real deadlines were soft deadlines. There was also a manager (not mine directly, thankfully) who assigned me part of a project with a deadline one month away, then talked to my supervisor because I hadn’t completed it in two days. It’s good to know if there really is consistency across the team (and maybe even the org), so there aren’t mixed messages you don’t know about.

    5. Hazel*

      If I had to guess what deadlines were real and what weren’t, and ask you every time, I’d be anxious too.

      Do you need to be the only one who knows what deadline is important or meet or not? It’s knowledge guarding, and you’re just teaching the staff to not know/ignore them/ attempt to read your mind.

      Please reframe these as just one actual deadline, and the rest as progress targets 1,2,3, or checkin stage 1, or whatever.

      Is this person anxious, catastrophising, and overworking? Yes. And other have responded to how to set the expectation that they do what’s asked. But please do everyone the favour of being clear what that is.

      1. Box of Kittens*

        I like this approach. Check-ins are so much less anxiety-inducing than deadlines. I don’t have this woman’s level of anxiety but I have found myself frustrated by how many internal deadlines I couldn’t meet, even when I understood that our workload at the time just didn’t allow for it. Regular check-ins/status updates may help this

  62. Seriously Literally Why*

    It seems my office wants to learn about new technology but only wants to learn it from within, so I met someone from within happy to chat, and now I’m being given the third degree from management about reaching out to an outsider (same org, different branch). Despite management unresponsive to teaching folks in the 1st place, cancelling training mtgs left and right. It feels like I should try to be more…mediocre…at my job. How do I get my job done without ruffling too many feathers?

    1. ferrina*

      What is your job? Is it your job to line up trainings? If not, is it something that you can let go? When in doubt, you can do research then present your boss with options and have your boss make the call. That way the boss can stall the project as much as they want, and you’ve done your job.

      Side note- is there anything stopping you from using the technology on your own? Could you do your own experiments, then share tips with coworkers. That’s how my workplace started with AI (important caveat: we use a proprietary AI, so all data is kept in-house and never shared with third-party vendors like ChatGPT)

  63. Somewhat Civil*

    I applied for my boss’ role when she left and didn’t get it. It’s so frustrating as I’ve been doing her role since before she left (due to conflicts of interest) and continued to do it after. Everyone assumed I would be getting the role – I didn’t even tell anyone I applied and people just kept offhand mentioning that that was my role. People in other teams were setting up meetings about work that would involve the person in this role. Every time someone finds out that we’re getting someone new in I can see the momentary confusion in their eyes, which just upsets me as I’m trying to be professional and breezy about it, bringing it up in a positive and forward looking manner. I assume people think I didn’t apply.

    My grandboss was enthusiastic about me applying and supported it. Unfortunately I fluffed the interview a bit, not terrible but not amazing, and someone scored higher than me (we have very strict interview and scoring framework practices for anti-bias reasons). My grandboss even said after when I asked for feedback that she knew I could do all the things she was asking, but I just hadn’t given the evidence in the interview that she had seen in real life.

    I’m beyond upset, roles like this don’t come up very often, this was my chance if I want to stay in my current team, and possibly my current organisation. My new boss is starting in a couple of weeks and I want to give her a chance, I’m sure she’s great and she obviously scored really well on the interview and is super qualified, but I just feel so sad and bitter.

    Just wanted to rant a bit, but if anyone has any tips on how to move forward with my new boss, I would appreciate it.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The gracious thing to do is to help your new boss succeed.

      It’s also the practical thing, because after you’ve got some time with her, and demonstrate your ability, you would then have 2 advocates in your pocket – her and your grandboss – for you getting a promotion in your current organization or looking for a comparable job elsewhere.

      1. ferrina*

        Absolutely this. I’ve been in this situation before (except that the boss that was hired over me was an unqualified nepotism hire). The boss is going to be nervous that you are going to take out that resentment on her, so be unambiguous in your support. Be proactive in sharing information, and be open to new suggestions. Defer to her in meetings (as appropriate) so everyone sees that you are supporting her.
        Handle this with grace, and the next time there is an opportunity, you will be much, much better positioned for it.

    2. MsM*

      I’m sorry. If she’s really that amazing, though, hopefully there’ll be a lot you can learn from her (including on the soft skills side) that’ll be useful for when opportunities do come up to move up.

    3. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      The one time this happened to me, the new boss ended up being the best manager/mentor I’ve had in my entire career, and she grew our department enough that I was able to get a promotion anyway after a while, so I hope you have a similar experience!

    4. Elsewise*

      That sucks, I’m really sorry. I’ve been in that position twice. Once I quit, because the way the company handled it was super shady. The other time I stuck it out, was extremely friendly to the person who got the job over me, and then worked with her on a project and immediately went “dang. They were right.” She was incredible, and way better at the job than I would have been. It would have been so much easier if she had sucked, or been a jerk, but she was actually lovely and incredibly talented.

      Anyway, just commiserating with you. Are there professional development opportunities you could take advantage of, either to put you in a better position for the next promotion, or fluff up your resume for another organization with more opportunities for advancement?

    5. Jessica*

      It sounds like the problem is your organization’s hiring practices. the whole point of job interviews is to try to guess, estimate, assess, and predict how the person would be at the job. In your case, the thing they’re trying to predict is already known. This isn’t the Olympics, where you’re not judged by your lifetime of practice but only by how well you skate in the next ten minutes.

      So you might think about looking elsewhere. But if you do, it’ll still be helpful to (a) have this new boss be a big SomewhatCivil fan, and (b) learn anything you can from her.

    6. HonorBox*

      This sucks, and doubly so because of people’s reactions to/around you. It would sting that the scoring framework overrode what they know about you, but you know it was that and not something else. Given that, I’d give your new boss as much support and information as you can. Help her be successful. Don’t kiss her ass, but do what you can to make sure she’s up to speed, has a lay of the land, and do what she needs of you. You did the job in the interim so you may have some insights that are helpful. You’ll also learn from her hopefully. You’ll show grandboss that there are no hard feeling and you’re not going to have issues working with new boss.

      And there is the “what happens if/when she finds out you also applied” situation. Don’t offer that yourself. Hopefully that information will come to her attention after she sees that you’re there to do well at your job and be helpful to her, and it’ll be water under the bridge. But if it comes up at any point, tell her that you were interested and felt like you were a strong candidate, but you’re excited to work with/for her because she was a much stronger candidate. Is that kissing up a little bit? Maybe. But if you can say it and mean it, you’re also telling yourself the same thing.

  64. SirBluebird*

    Does anyone have advice on coping with small fish, big pond syndrome? I am struggling pretty hard in my current role because I am used to being far and away the most excellent employee at my small companies. Now I’m at a huge megacorporation with 70,000 employees, and I am, at the best of times, in the top 50%. I am really struggling with the blow to identity there, especially since I got back from medical leave a couple months ago and have been underperforming the average since. It doesn’t help that this is an extremely metrics-based role where I can see in real time exactly how I am doing compared to my thousands of peers.

    1. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      Did you go through something similar between high school college (for example, I went from being a top 1% student to a top 30% student due to the presence of so many who were also 1%ers in high school and it was a huge adjustment for my ego)? In my case, I set my internal goal to not slack off, do the best I could in my classes and stop thinking about where I was in class rankings.

      1. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

        I meant to add that I knew other former 1%ers who took a different approach – they did slack off and just did the minimum to get decent grades. Overall, that was not as successful in managing their small fish/big pond feelings.

      3. SirBluebird*

        I was homeschooled and then did fantastic in college lol but I imagine it’s very much the same thing!

    2. RagingADHD*

      Well, the thing is, when you are far and away the most excellent employee it is really really hard to learn, find mentors, and grow. As someone said, “If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.”

      I had to do the same adjustment, and found it is much more satisfying (and much less stressful) to get out of the wrong room and get into a growth environment. Growth mindset is really empowering, and there’s a lot of good reading out there about it.

      Just being able to say, “I didn’t know that – please tell me more” is an incredible experience when you are used to feeling immense pressure to be The Smart One (TM).

    3. Head for the Hills*

      I’ve not got any experience here to tell you – I am a big fish in a teeny tiny pond.
      But for what it’s worth – can you try to stop thinking about your position in relation to others? Try to focus on the intrinsic value of the work you are doing.
      It’s not all about metrics.

    4. BigLawEx*

      Do you need to check metrics every minute/hour/day? I’ve found that if I can ignore checking constantly it helps me focus.

  65. Head for the Hills*

    Hello all, I’m looking for some feedback back on what’s reasonable to expect from a freelancer.
    We currently contract a freelance worker to cover a time specific slot in the week and do some related follow up and planning at any time but in time for the next week.
    This worker is an expert in the area with expertise we don’t have on staff, but also has some health conditions which means they are sometimes unavailable at short notice. For the weekly slot this inconvenient, but not disastrous as we have other people who can cover. But for the following up and planning it is creating delays on the project and we aren’t meeting all the outputs we need to at this point.
    They also freelance for other bodies and I’ve found that they often pack out their week in a way that would be a stretch for a healthy person, but for them it seems inevitable that they will end up ill within a few days.
    Is it reasonable for me to raise this and ask for them to change their approach?
    They’ve agreed to do the work for us – they are passionate about it. But I don’t have any say over what they book in for the rest of their week. How can I set an expectation that they balance their health needs with the agreed outputs of our project?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You can’t set an expectation about how they handle their health, but you can address whether the work you’ve contracted for is getting done adequately. And you can provide suggestions about possible adjustments to the contract, if that’s appropriate, e.g., maybe drop the time slot but keep the follow up/planning duties.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      The questions for you are:
      * How critical is this expertise to this project, and how critical is this project to your company/the stakeholders?
      * Is this common expertise, or very niche? Are there other freelancers who can do this work?
      * How time-sensitive is this? Would it be feasible to add in padding – tell your freelancer X date and quietly on your end be OK with it coming by Y date?

      If this is super-niche expertise on a super-critical project, you may have to take the hit and accept that your outputs are going to be late. If the project isn’t as critical, or you think you can find a different freelancer, tell them outright that you need the llama-shearing information by Y date, and if they can’t commit to that your company can’t continue in the contract (tailor script as needed). Ignore all information about what they are doing for other clients. That’s their purview.

    3. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

      No, that’s not a reasonable issue to raise with a freelancer. They need to work to live in a much more present and urgent way than someone who is salaried. If the freelancer isn’t doing the work agreed upon in the contract, then you can decline to renew their contract. But none of the rest of it is your business.

      1. Head for the Hills*

        Thanks for the comments – This is what I thought, but I’m a real bind because they were integral to us developing and finding funding for the work, so just declining to renew their contract doesn’t seem reasonable either!
        For some reason they seem more prepared to let us down rather than other people.

        Hmm

        1. Bike Walk Barb*

          Are they counting on that history to provide an emotional cushion for themselves with you when they don’t deliver? Kind of sounds like it. “This is really Beryl’s baby; we couldn’t possibly do it without them/take it away from them.”

          That could be the entry for the conversation. “We really appreciate all you did to get this going for the organization. Of course you’re committed to its success. We are too, which is why we need to know we can count on XYZ schedule or EFG deliverables. This hasn’t been happening consistently and we need this to change so we don’t fall behind/fail to accomplish our shared goals. What can you change in your part of the process to assure us we’ll stay on track?” (looking for specific markers you can check on along the way, like getting an email between work days with a report or whatever makes sense)

  66. BellaStella*

    Did I do the wrong thing here?
    Had a conversation with my boss today.
    He said budgets are tight next year and my role is not funded fully. And he may have to move me to another team.
    So I took notes and sent back a recap and asking for clarification on when these things will be decided.
    I then asked my finance guy about budgets and said I heard things were tight and would let him know what is going on with my role when I know more. Finance guy said there are no issues with budgets, we are all covered.
    So now what do I do?
    I trust finance guy not my boss.

    1. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      I would start putting feelers out now for a change of job – either a new boss in a different part of the company or a new company.

      1. ferrina*

        Seconding this. Brush up the resume and start looking.

        Side note- sometimes the budget is fine for the company but not for a department. It could be that the department has been overspending, or the department loses money because that money is reallocated elsewhere, or even that the department is reallocating the money and cutting a position.
        Any which way, your boss is telling you that your role is not secure. Listen to that and make plans accordingly.

    2. Qwerty*

      I can’t think of a scenario where someone in finance would know more about my team’s budget than me. I work in the private sector, so not sure if there is a nonprofit or academia thing at play here

      Finance Guy also can’t tell people what he knows if they aren’t cleared for it. If there is a problem with the budget, Finance Guy would lose his job for telling someone before it becomes public knowledge. Your meeting with your boss does not count as general knowledge as far as he’s concerned.

      A company having enough money is not the same as a team or department having the money they requested. Despite my department receiving a larger budget for 2025, my team received a decrease so our open position had to be eliminated.

      Your boss was pretty clear that your role has an uncertain future, so act accordingly. It sounds like the best case scenario might be being transferred to another team, so start making a backup plan.

      2. Yes And*

        I’m a nonprofit finance director and I second all off this. These are all legitimate reasons that your boss might be right and the finance guy wrong (or not forthcoming) about the budget.

        But in the end, it doesn’t matter. Your boss has told you they’re not going to go to bat for you. Believe them.

        1. BellaStella*

          Thanks. Yeah. This is what it has come down to after working for this boss for five years. This is not the first time either this type of thing has happened. And it is time to find a new role indeed.

    3. Bike Walk Barb*

      I’m wondering why you would be the one to convey anything to Finance Guy about funding for your role, unless that’s a conversation you typically have. That feels much more like your boss’s responsibility. If you were doing it to cross-check your boss’s statements then as others have said you can’t necessarily accomplish that this way.

      It also depends on the size of the organization and what level you mean by Finance Guy. When I ran a small nonprofit the person who handled our day-to-day accounting work would have known things like payables and receivables. Definitely smart and capable, would be telling me if member renewals weren’t coming in at expected levels and how people had responded to our last appeal. They wouldn’t necessarily know our chances of landing or losing a big grant or contract, plans in the works we hadn’t yet formulated enough to bring to staff that would affect revenues or expenses, things that might still be at the board level.

  67. Fidget Spinner*

    May I submit an idea for an ask the readers segment: weird work gifts.

    The one about weird stuff you’ve found in offices reminded me of the time I found an old inflatable pool in the office and was encouraged to wrap it for white elephant. I felt bad in the moment for doing a joke gift and told them “you can trust me as far as you can throw me,” but they thought I had the phrase wrong or that I underestimated my weight. So that’s on them.

    Another unusual work gift I got once was one of those purple rocks.

    1. anectoad*

      I got socks printed with wine glasses. This was not in a swap/White Elephant situation, it was the person officed closest to me giving me a gift that she presumably picked out for me. I had never mentioned drinking wine, going to wineries, etc. to her, or even anything in general to indicate that I drink alcohol. The wine socks made me feel uncomfortable for that reason and I re-homed them. I had gotten her a spatula with a gingerbread person on it, because she collected gingerbread people.

  68. Burnt Out Entrepeneur*

    There was a question in an open thread recently about how many hours of the day people actually spend working. My follow up question is- for those of you with jobs where you have some downtime during the day and said you average out to something like 6 hours of actual work, what type of work do you do, how long did it take you get to that point in your career, and/or what type of training/background do you have?

    Signed,
    Exhausted educator/solo-preneur looking to career pivot to a job where I don’t have to be *super duper on and shiny and productive* at 110% all day every day while also barely scraping by financially

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Office jobs, mostly. I lean administrative/technical in my roles and for the most part they’ve always had time for a bit of downtime during the day. Didn’t really require any time to get to that point in my career or any specific training, at least not in the sense that it impacts the downtime. I’d mostly say that it required ageing enough to know I shouldn’t kill myself trying to do 110% every day.

      1. Burnt Out Entrepeneur*

        oh yay, this is comforting to know! I’m applying for admin positions right now and hoping to work my way into something I can both live off of and not kill myself doing

    2. Big Sigh*

      Just wanted to say as someone who was a solo-preneur with a full time job, I had to give it up. I now work one full time job (having my own business was not the dream) but I’m still busy :'( Trying to let go of my juggle everything mindset. It’s rough. Hope you pivot into something less busy!!

      1. Burnt Out Entrepeneur*

        oof I can’t even imagine doing both. I’ve been a solo-preneur without a full time job for the last 6 years and that was already plenty of juggling and stress for me. I realized I’ve been working for a really demanding boss (me) who can’t afford to pay her employee (me) nearly enough for the amount of work required, and am pivoting to applying for full time office jobs in hopes of finding better balance and benefits. It seems to be a rough job market but I’m hoping something pans out soon!

    3. ferrina*

      Office job. At one job I had a boss who didn’t like working, so he always padded timelines to an insane degree and constantly claimed that we were busy. I was working maybe 4 hours/day under him and I was so. bored.
      At another job, no one really knew what I did but I busted out with some great thing on a monthly basis, and no one really asked questions beyond that.

      It’s about finding an environment that is about results, not butts in seats (and a job that doesn’t require a certain time commitment in order to meet kpis- things where you need to have X hours of staffing for public/clients obviously wouldn’t work). Then set limits. Don’t volunteer unless the extra time genuinely makes you happy. Don’t do other people’s work for them. If there is a hold-up caused by a different team/department, make sure people know that there is a hold-up, and slow yourself down. Don’t break yourself fixing someone else’s emergency (and don’t take a job where part of the job is fixing other people’s emergencies). I also find it helps to even it out by cheerfully doing the overtime when there is a true emergency/big push. Go the extra mile for the people who go an extra mile for you, but don’t go the extra mile for the people that won’t (or those that “absolutely would but my boss won’t let me/today isn’t a good day for it/other reason that conveniently pops up when you need help”)

    4. RagingADHD*

      I currently work with corporate governance of a highly regulated corporation, which combines document prep/publishing with recordkeeping/archiving. My path here was through legal secretary and EA roles, then a pivot into business ghostwriting and other types of freelance writing and editing, then back to corporate land.

      Gotta say, having health benefits and PTO is way better than the solopreneur grind, even on days when I do have to be 110% shiny and productive.

      1. Burnt Out Entrepeneur*

        That type of work (document prep/record keeping/archiving) sounds so amazing, and exactly the type of thing I’m hoping to land in. I’ve been looking at legal secretary postings as one possible route, but the ones in my area area are all falling into one of two categories: either a) entry level but pay way too little to live on or b) want several years of experience (and sometimes still pay relatively little). But keeping my fingers crossed!

        I think it might have actually been one of your comments a while back that inspired me to actually go forward with leaving the solopreneur life. Someone here- possibly you- made a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment about realizing they were a terrible boss to themself and couldn’t afford the resources to provide decent benefits, pay, and professional development. If that was you- thanks! It’s feeling like kind of a grind to find a job that will allow me to move into office-land, but I’m really hoping it will be a more sustainable life once I get there.

    5. H.C.*

      Marketing/PR with some creative work too. Typically my downtime are when project files are rendering/uploading so I take mini-breaks during that time.

      I started in journalism but saw the writing on the wall of that industry tanking early on so pivoted to the PR field, which I mostly enjoy almost 20 years later since I work primarily with nonprofit/public sector industries, so there’s the do-good aspect on top of OK pay & work-life balance (esp in comparison to sticking it out in journalism or more chaotic sides of PR like entertainment publicity, political comms, investor relations).

    6. RussianInTexas*

      Customer support, contracts.
      It’s seasonal for contracts, and customer support stuff depends on incoming stuff, so sometimes it’s very busy (but not to the point of more than 45 hours per day) and sometimes I do an hour of work per day.
      I do not get paid much.

    7. AlabamaAnonymous*

      I don’t know what kind of education you’ve been involved in, but I work in institutional effectiveness in higher education. My job might be a good fit. The institutional research side is very data-heavy, but the assessment side is a lot of report writing and document management. Of course, there is a lot of concern around higher ed based on the last election, but the institutional effectiveness side of higher ed has been growing pretty steadily over the last 10 years and is less likely to be negatively affected by the political changes than some other parts of higher ed.

    8. Highlighter Cat*

      I saw that and great a little cranky. My whole team works the whole day. I’m always encouraging them to leave at the eve of the day. I feel like 6 hours is more common with people in weird companies who might work from home, refuse to have cameras on and refuse to answer their phones because it’s insulting.

  69. Big Sigh*

    I’ve got a person who is more senior to me on my team (but not my boss) who has this annoying habit of not fully reading my emails, then essentially recommending to me the same idea I wrote back to me. Is it too snarky to say “I agree, I stated that earlier in my email” ?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If this were someone who I got along with well, and who didn’t pull this thing every single time, I’d say “I think we’re in violent agreement”. But I don’t think you’re in the right place for that…

    2. ferrina*

      That is so annoying. I’ve worked with people like this. The snark would just cause more issues in the long run. Here’s what I would do:
      1. Make sure you state your biggest ideas to your boss or someone senior before telling this person. That way you get credit.
      2. If you need this person to give you credit for your idea, put your idea in the first sentence, then the details later.
      3. If it doesn’t matter whose idea it was, just say “Great, it sounds like we’re aligned!” and move on. The snark will just cause more drama that you don’t need.

    3. Hermione Danger*

      I worked with one of those. My response was to get much more direct in my communication, including providing a lot less by way of explanation and essentially turning my emails into bulleted lists or taking a tl/dr approach, depending on the situation. I will not lie, though; it didn’t solve the entire problem, and there was still a great deal of internal eye rolling and actual big sighing.

    4. Anonymask*

      Yes, it is a little too snarky, but I absolutely feel you on this and would be tempted to do the same haha. The suggestions already provided by other commenters are great and the more correct way to go. If they are often taking credit, or that’s a concern in your area, would it hurt to CC your manager in some emails (more as a “hey here’s the idea/thought process” instead of as a way to get them in trouble or something)?

    5. Annony*

      Maybe switch it around. Happily respond “I’m glad you agree!” or if it is important to point out more clearly that you already said that “I agree. As I said in my email (expand on why you suggested the idea).”

    6. Nesprin*

      “I agree entirely- I was saying the same thing in my email to X last week. Could we talk about how to make sure this gets implemented? I’d love your take on it. “

    7. Emberly*

      Probably too snarky, sadly. I’d go with an enthusiastic “Excellent, I’m so glad you agree with me!” every time.

  70. Anonymask*

    A small work win this week: I’m expanding my network and making my current job climate more tolerable!

    I overheard one of my coworkers say something, and my ears perked up. I sent them a Teams message of “hey, didn’t mean to eavesdrop but I heard you say X, and if you wanted to talk about it at lunch?” which turned into a happy hour where we found out we had almost exactly the same complaints and issues!

    It felt good to be vindicated about what’s been bothering me about this company, and it’s great to have another person in my corner looking out for the multitude of sexist microaggressions I’ve been facing for so long I’ve stopped seeing them. And of course, I’m looking out for the things they’ve mentioned they’ve become blind to because they happen so frequently and I’ll be the one calling those out for them.

    And now we’ve got more happy hours/lunches planned!

    1. Jill Swinburne*

      Awesome, but just be careful not to get into a thing where you trauma bond over complaining about work. I’ve fallen into this trap before and while the venting sessions felt good in the moment, it also made me sad and negative. My coworker would complain about things I hadn’t even noticed and then I found a new thing to be mad about. Don’t be like me!

  71. WoodswomanWrites, seeking advice from older workers*

    Fellow older workers, I could use your advice.

    I love my career of the last couple decades as well as my job of three years. I’ve consistently gotten positive feedback about my work. My plan is to stay in my current role until I retire.

    My challenge is that at 67, I’m slowing down and it’s easier to make mistakes. I’m seeing firsthand why a lot of people retire at my age. However, financially I can’t retire for about another five years. I live frugally and I’m well paid now but as a single person whose income was substantially lower for much of my working life, I can’t afford to stop working.

    My slower work pace has been noticed and my manager has requested a conversation to discuss it. Fortunately, I work in a great place and the focus is on being supportive for problem-solving, not punitive.

    Do any of you senior-age workers have strategies for making sure I can still do good work when retiring isn’t an option? My colleagues are great and I’m not burned out on the work itself, which I still find interesting. It’s my pace, ease of making mistakes, etc. that I need help with.

    1. Sigh*

      I don’t know your role / industry but in many fields it is common to pair up an experienced but slower/older person with a newbie. The experienced person benefits from the newbie’s speed/energy and the newbie can learn from the experienced person. It’s great for preserving institutional knowledge too.

    2. WellRed*

      I understand the slowing down part but can you identify why you think being 67 means more mistakes? Are you having trouble seeing/focusing/hearing/paying attention? Once you identify the issue it will be easier to identify how to fix or accommodate.

    3. Too many cats*

      It sounds like scaling back to parttime or to a less intense role may not be an option.
      If you have an EAP perhaps have a few sessions with them. Firstly have a session to prepare for your upcoming conversation with your workplace. Then to put in place some strategies.

    4. RagingADHD*

      If you find yourself more prone to error or missing things, having to double back on things to make sure you completed all the steps, you could look into the kind of self-checks or self-management stuff that’s recommended for ADHD, chronic illness, etc. There’s a ton of recommendations on here and on ADHD focused blogs and YouTube channels.

    5. Jessica*

      Since it sounds like you know the job well, maybe you can draw on that knowledge to make some checklists and process documents for yourself. Put up some guardrails to prevent mistakes. Maybe things that you used to do easily and intuitively you now can still manage to do successfully with a little help from yourself.

    6. Tabby Baltimore*

      As someone in her 60s herself, I upvote the checklists/process documents suggestions.
      You might also try using Outlook’s calendaring function by creating a daily or weekly deadline for yourself, and then setting the 1st appearance of the reminder up to several hours, or even a full day, in advance. After the reminder pops up the first time, Outlook offers you dropdown options to select for the next time you’ll receive a reminder about the deadline. I really like this function, b/c the constant reminders improve my awareness of when meetings start, so I know how much time I have to finish something before I have to leave my desk/get on a call.
      One other thing you might try (if you haven’t already had this conversation) is to speak to your supervisor about changing what’s in your performance objectives. I don’t know your industry, but if you are responsible for deliverables that have a tight turn-around time, maybe you can ask if your boss would be willing to re-write your objectives to allow you to be responsible for other deliverables that can be created at a slower/more deliberate pace.
      Good luck, and let us know how things worked out.

  72. DJ*

    There’s a huge push to get workers back in the office (rather than looking at how more workers can access WFH even part of the working week). I’m copping flack for being in a hybrid working arrangement from friends who either don’t work or have their own WFH due to being self employed. These friends formerly didn’t blink an eye over my arrangement.
    They quote the media hype ie are off picking up kids at 3pm (ignoring these workers log on and do a few hours after the kids are in bed, work from cafes and the beach, don’t put full days etc.
    THOSE WHO WFH how true do you think these myths are?
    Anyhow pointed out that conversely colleagues will check and remind to emails whilst chilling on the lounge (they aren’t expected to), push through when not well enough to travel in but able to do some WFH and most don’t work from the beach. I usually end up missing my local lunchtime meditation class and only very occasionally meet a friend for linchpin.
    We have had colleagues fly a day early to interstate family working a day from there and I’ve heard some will go to their holiday destination a day early and WFH there on the Friday to avoid the Friday night traffic which means an extra nights revenue for the accommodative provider!
    What’s your reality verses the myths with WFH?

    1. DJ*

      I meant weekly lunchtime meditation class!
      Interestingly these conversations with friends happened at times I caught up with them at their preferred time which I wouldn’t have been able to do if I was in the office 5 days PW with a nearly 2 hour commute each way as I’d have to miss sleep from day arriving home at midnight and being up by 6-6.30am rather than 8am the following work day.

    2. Too many cats*

      Don’t employers/managers know by the employee’s output if they are putting in the hours? And from what I understand MS Teams indicates when the employee is away from their computer.
      I’ve been fascinated to see the variety of homes employees work from. And the odd cat that walks in front of the screen or in the background!
      ! Working in an unergonomic setting with a small laptop screen would be difficult.

      1. YNWA*

        You can game TEAMs, though and set your status to present, away, offline, be right back, appear away, and do not disturb so that’s not the best metric.

      2. Percy Weasley*

        I LOVE my WFH days, which involve sitting at my desk in my ergonomic chair in front of multiple screens. No way I’d want to ruin time away by spending it hunched over my laptop!

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      WFH full time. We subleased our space back in July. I have 10 colleagues locally, and we will have small meetups once a quarter or so.

      I log on anywhere from 7:00 to 9:00, take a 30 minute lunch, log off 5-ish. But this week I had to come back to the computer after dinner for a couple hours on two nights.

      I have no qualms about going downstairs to swap out a load of laundry, or take 30 minutes to run to the grocery store, get a haircut, etc. As long as I produce and I’m available on Slack, it’s all good.

      Even though I have coworkers and clients in different time zones, I don’t have any pressure to change my schedule to match theirs.

      There’s been one time in 3 years where I had to have my work gear visiting family over Christmas, and had about 4 hours of phone calls and document work.

      I get no flack from anyone, and give no flack either. I’m not a WFH evangelist – life is a rich tapestry, I’ve worked jobs that physically or legally can’t be WFH in the past, etc.

      1. Jane*

        Because I can duck out to the washing machine/hang up washing I’m happy to action the odd email/message after hours. I don’t get disturbed by non work related chat.
        If I duck up to the shops I record that as time off in lieu. And take a long lunch or leave early for the odd coffee or lunch with a friend.
        If I get behind I can work an evening!

  73. Shutterdoula*

    If you were 10 years away from retirement, needed to work for health insurance only and could take a pretty steep paycut, and were absolutely burned out from a decades long tech career, what kinds of jobs would you look for?

    1. turtle writer*

      it would really depend on what your skills were in tech. Generally, I’d try organizations that I believed in – maybe they need IT support or data organization, or teaching.

    2. DJ*

      Could you go part time or would you have to look at a lower paying less intense full time job?
      What part of your current job do you like/find less burnouty and could you do that?
      Other ideas – trainer in tech, admin

    3. WoodswomanWrites*

      I think this depends on what things you value in a workplace. For instance, would you prefer to work primarily as a soloist or would you find it appealing to be part of a collaborative team? Are you looking for a steady or flexible schedule? Remote or in person? Public-facing or not? Once you identify those kinds of factors, that can help with recommendations for potential future jobs.

  74. heliotrope*

    Hey everyone…. anyone got any advice on how to best find a job outside of the US within one’s field? I’ve begun by applying at positions I am qualified for at the large international players (with both a US and international presence) but would also love to hear if there’s any other ways to sniff out employers wanting to sponsor. Thanks!

    1. ExpatTryingToBeHelpful*

      Why not apply to companies located in the country you want to get to? Find the best local companies in country X, check their openings, and apply with them. in your cover letter, explain in 1 sentence why you want to move to country X. Applying through regular channels should work because presumably, your resume would stand out.

      The company I ended up being hired by also flew me out for an interview.

  75. Abe Froman*

    I’m at a loss and need some help. Earlier this year I was put on a PIP and fired before it was supposed to end. I thought it was incredibly premature for the Pip and certainly for the firing, since I had been on the job less than 6 months and thought I was doing pretty well. I had been workshopping how to answer why you left your previous job, but I’ve found out more and… the place I worked is/was crazy toxic, the staff has continued to turnover, people are seemingly randomly put on Pips. I honestly don’t know how to answer why I left my old job. I have a final round interview coming next week, and I want to be prepared to handle it. any thoughts?

    1. Nesprin*

      “I found it wasn’t a good fit-I did enjoy X and Y about job, but there was”
      a thing that anyone would recognize as an issue such as
      “a lot of instability and X% of entire department turned over in the 6months I was there.”

      (then option A)
      “I was really excited to read your job posting because of Y- I’m looking for a position where I get to do more of that.” Transition to talking about Y.

      (or option B)
      “With that in mind, can you tell me a bit more about turnover in your dept and how you handle performance?” Transition to talking about performance

    2. Management Fibre*

      All you can do is tell the truth, really. You cannot avoid acknowledging the firing, so you need to be clear and honest. “I was put on a PIP after less than six months, but things were unclear, it was not a good fit, and I was fired before the PIP ended. They have a very high rate of PIP and turnover, it turns out.”

      Do not try to lie about being fired – if that comes out, it looks WAY worse than getting fired one time. Be straightforward and honest, and just acknowledge the reality. Good luck!

  76. beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk-ox*

    Not really a question, but I just started a new job. It’s remote, and my interview was through Teams, and something that really struck me as so helpful during the interview was that the interviewers verbally asked me the questions, but also had them written out on PowerPoint slides so I was able to read them as well. As someone with ADHD and a learning style that even I can’t pin down, I found this really helpful!

    I’m assuming this isn’t particularly common, but I admittedly haven’t really interviewed anywhere for like seven years, so maybe I’m wrong there. I just found it to be a really simple and fairly unobtrusive way to be accommodating without the interviewee having to ask, and thought I’d mention it for anyone trying to make their interview process a bit more helpful to those interviewing.

    1. noname today*

      You can also in teams turn on live captioning—it’s not error proof, but does help with focusing

      1. beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk-ox*

        Yeah, I am aware, but it’s honestly not something I would have thought of on my own. I just thought it was cool that this was the standard way they conduct interviews; I didn’t ask for any sort of accommodations, but it was helpful regardless.

    3. Government worker*

      This has been the standard in the virtual interviews I’ve had with government agencies. I was out of the workforce for several years, and what is new for in-person interviews is being allowed like 10 minutes to review the questions before the interview.

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      My agency likes to ask multi-part questions at interviews, which drives me nuts, so I think having the question written out, on the screen, during the interview, would be very helpful with de-stressing candidates who are trying to make sure they answer all parts of a question.
      I will pass this suggestion on to my HR office, too.

    5. Bike Walk Barb*

      We send the questions in advance of the interview and then do a copy/paste of each one into the chat. That’s not ideal since some are long and reading them would mean scrolling. I love this and will share with our HR team.

  77. Diomedea Exulans*

    Asking this for a dear friend of mine who has been a long-standing member of La Leche League. For the uninitiated, it is a fantastic charity run by women who help other women with breastfeeding. Well, it’s least it used to be fantastic until the latest controversy, which I don’t intend to go into details about and that would be rather tangential to my question anyway.

    So, this friend in question is wondering whether she can include her membership and volunteering with this organisation on her resume. It has often been discussed here that certain memberships are unprofessional to include. I know that some people think they spread misinformation about breastfeeding and its health benefits (even though I disagree with people who claim that).

    1. Jill Swinburne*

      I think it really depends on her role in the organisation, how relevant it is to the role she’s applying for, and the audience. LLL is all over the world – my impression of it here in New Zealand is that it can be quite militant about ‘breast is best’ (but then that’s the case for our entire health system – which I don’t agree with for a number of reasons). An association with it probably wouldn’t particularly raise eyebrows in a larger org, however, but might if it was a small, blokey business in a male-dominated industry.

      I was unaware of this particular controversy till I Googled so am not sure if it’s widely known about where you are or just in internet land, which is why I’d say know your audience.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        I was also unaware of the recent events—reporting seems to be… coming from just one side of the divide. I can’t speak to views on La Leche League in the general public, but personally, the org overall displays a bias that distorts what I think the mission should be, so I agree with Jill Swinburne that it depends how your friend’s volunteering would relate to the work she’s applying for. If it relates, it could be either a benefit or a liability. If it doesn’t relate, why give precious resume space to it?

        1. Kay*

          Well, knowing nothing before Googling the first thing I found was basically a thinly veiled hate article coming from what I can only imagine was a right wing nutter, so that is something to consider and certainly a “know your audience” situation.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I wouldn’t list if for the same reason I wouldn’t list becoming a peer volunteer with with any other support group dedicated to a medical issue, disability, or very personal issue like addiction recovery – it’s giving the employer too much information about you, that could raise unconscious bias.

    3. Shutterdoula*

      Membership is irrelevant. Volunteer work I would only include if it’s relevant to the job she’s applying for. Applying to be a WIC counselor? Keep it. For a software dev or graphic design or insurance sales, drop it.
      Now I’m off to look up the controversy because I’m a doula & CBE and had no idea.

      1. Shutterdoula*

        Ah, so the controversy is a couple people quitting because they only want to help certain people who fit their views of who should parent? I find it interesting that the only coverage that came up is from religious news organizations. And that even as someone working in the birth/newborn space, someone who regularly refers people to LLL, I’d never heard of this issue. It’s not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
        The org SHOULD serve everyone who breastfeeds. That’s always been the mission. I don’t think this is much of a controversy, and I wouldn’t let the “controversy” be a factor.

    4. Clisby*

      What kinds of jobs is she applying for?

      There are a whole lot of jobs where nobody would care. (I don’t mean care about the controversy, I mean care about LLL.)

  78. 653-CXK*

    For those of you following the overtime pay expansion, raising this from $43K to $58K in January, a judge has struck it down, reducing it back to the former $35K limit.

  79. gwennian*

    My good news for the week is a demotion! I was asked to manage a different department this summer.
    1. I hate being a manager. I prefer to be an individual contributor or support staff, even though I have a reputation (almost 10 years here, starting with reception and I have been running two different regulated programs for almost 2.5 years) for being a high performer.
    2. I got guilted with everything but the “we’re family!” line, by the Director of HR, who is one of the family members of this family-owned business. (Not MY family, thank goodness!)
    3. I already worked regular OT, as I am tapped to help out with “special projects” as needed.

    The new department had a steep learning curve, and absolutely needed more time than I could devote (well, I became salary, but it was taking more time than I was willing to devote, even for the much higher wage I negotiated.) I started job searching, but I know that I would not be able to match even my previous pay rate locally and have no desire to move. So I went to the Director of HR and stepped down! The business was eager to keep me overall. I am back to my former office, with a new pay rate middling between my former hourly wage and the salary that I was earning. Best of all, HR is thinking about changing my boss (who was tangentially making the job even worse) to the person that I actually go to with any issues (another Director)! I feel like Christmas morning!

  80. Despairingly unemployed*

    Sanity check to quell the anxiety pre-interview please: is it a-okay to say I’ll be sticking around even if I know I’ll be moving (out of state) before June next year? This is for a local PT office job, but I need the money for the move.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Yes.

      Think of it this way: Plans can change. So, until you actually move, you are Schrodinger’s employee, simultaneously in current state and in new state.

    2. Jen*

      I don’t think it’s okay to say you will be sticking around if you won’t be. But maybe their definition of sticking around is short term enough it covers your plans.

      1. HonorBox*

        This. I wouldn’t answer in a way that paints a long-term future, but you can be vague about your plans. As @Analytical Tree Hugger points out above, your plans could change. Until you’re ready to move, you are there. Even without the intended move, you could leave in six weeks if you find that the job isn’t what you thought, you win the lottery, etc. Just don’t promise anything and you won’t be in the wrong when you leave.

  81. Lexi*

    I’m middle aged and have applied to a new part time job and although it’s a low level pretty bad paid job, they want me resume.

    And this is a problem as I have huge gaps in my CV where I was a housewife without kids and just didn’t work.

    How do I communicate this in my CV and, should I be lucky enough, during a job in interview?

    I could of course mention I did a bit of work, but that was all “unofficial” and I can’t provide names or anything important.

    My main reason for wanting this job is the it’s working from home after they have trained you and it has more hours than my current work from home job.

    Thanks!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Submit a resume and either address it in a cover letter or (preferably) address it when it comes up in the interview. Something like, “Between jobs, I took care of the house and did odd jobs. I’m interested in this role because I’m interested in (fill in something about the job responsibilities/function, what you’ll learn or what skills you’ll be able to use).”

  82. extra sad*

    I got put on a PIP for mood related issues (specifically, “inspiring and motivating others”) for an incident that happened while I was transitioning anti-depressants for diagnosed depression. I have never formally documented my mental health issues with my employer. Do I have any recourse here if they end up wanting to fire me?

    1. Jen*

      Sorry you had that happen. I don’t know, but you could make HR aware of the medical reasons if they bring it up as an issue. It’s possible they will become more understanding if they realize it was a side effect and you are seeing a medical professional.

    2. Hatchet*

      I would think that you could follow up with HR and be a bit vague about the medical issues – I wouldn’t go into too much detail – jus something like “I was dealing with a diagnosed medical issue. Some of the side effects included ‘mood related issues’ (or however you want to phrase this). This can be confirmed by my doctor. What do I need to do/ need to show you to get off this PIP?” Good luck.

  83. Jen*

    How bad is it to tell a coworker you don’t want to discuss a certain thing they keep bringing up if they’ve brought it up 5 times, and it’s something they can personally take care of if they just put the effort in?

    1. Bike Walk Barb*

      Not bad at all! “You’ve brought that up five times now. I don’t have anything to contribute–it’s yours to take care of. [insert resource here if you haven’t already referred to something/someone else] Please cross it off the list of things we discuss, thanks.”

  84. Another freelancer*

    I am just three months into a new role where I found out last week that the role has a high turnover rate. I’m like the fifth or sixth person in the role in about three years. This wasn’t revealed during my research of the company or in my interviews. I want out of this role.

    Can I include anything in my resume about improving the role despite the high turnover? I am seeing success in my role and don’t want to leave it off my resume. My predecessors left a huge mess that just got kicked down the road with each new hire.

    1. Kay*

      It is really going to depend on what you are trying to say and how you are saying it. If you have a notable accomplishment that would otherwise be a great benchmark on your resume and you will be comfortable in future interviews talking about that as well as why you are leaving, sure.

      Without knowing more I can think of more reasons than not that this would out of touch being as you haven’t been there long and the job probably hasn’t been done properly for 3 years! Yikes! As someone who hires I would be asking questions, expecting solid answers and I wouldn’t put much weight on “someone being able to do something” in a role without it having any good benchmarks for so long.

      1. Another freelancer*

        This is a good point thank you! I will leave that part about turnover off my resume and just stick to my other accomplishments. I want to be pickier in this current job search so I may be here for a few more months at least. I’ll need to keep this role on my resume in the meanwhile.

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