open thread – November 29, 2024

by Alison Green on November 29, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 109 comments }

{ 109 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Being shown the door*

    HELP!

    I was recently approached by a recruiter for an amazing opportunity. I have not been job hunting, but this was something that was too good to pass up, so I decided to move forward with it. The company had to push back the hiring timeline a bit so it’s been several weeks, and I haven’t yet been presented as a candidate.

    Well somehow…. My boss found out. And now is pushing me out. I am a senior manager and have never had any negative feedback (I have been here for 6 years) and all of a sudden my manager has started having skip-levels with my reports, making management decisions without telling or including me, and generally acting like I’ll be leaving in 2 weeks. But also not acknowledging any of this directly.

    I have my annual review on Monday. Is there anything I can do/say in this situation? I’m not even sure if I’ll be seriously considered for this new position and I wasn’t planning on job hunting aside from it. Generally I like my job and have been happy here – this was a one off thing that fell in my lap. Any ideas how to bring it up? Is that even worthwhile? Should I start job hunting for real?

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      Oof. I guess you could bring this up in your review. Your second full paragraph sums up your tenure positively and calmly and names the behavior you’re seeing. If your boss definitely knows, you have nothing to lose. Unfortunately your boss is being so unreasonable I think you have no choice but to ramp up search in earnest. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

      Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Do you know for sure your boss knows and that’s the reason they’re behaving this way? Or are you just assuming because they’re behaving oddly, that this must be the reason why?

      You could approach it from the “I’m curious about this behaviour” angle, e.g. “Boss, I noticed you’ve started meeting directly with my team and I’ve felt a bit out of the loop on your decisions lately. Is there something going on I should know about? Or is there anything you need from my team that you’re not currently getting from me that I should make sure to keep you informed about going forward?” Etc.

      If there is any way you can humanly avoid bringing it up in your annual review, I would do that. Which would probably mean talking to your boss about it today.

      Reply ↓
      1. ursula*

        This is the best advice. Only address it directly if you’re 100% sure that your boss knows. And also I think it’s wise to try to separate it from your annual review, since that becomes part of your permanent HR record in most cases.

        Reply ↓
      2. Being shown the door*

        (Being intentionally vague here.)

        I don’t know for certain that boss knows, however something that happened at a standing monthly meeting earlier this week is what led me to suspect that because it’s the only explanation that makes sense. I am in charge of long-term planning for a major project and boss and I meet monthly to discuss it. The recruiter contacted me after our last meeting and before this one. At the meeting earlier this week, boss asked me point blank how long I planned to stay in my role – I have no idea what precipitated that – and it caught me really off guard. I know I fumbled a little (because who expects that from their boss??) but told them that I don’t have any intentions of leaving and I’m happy with my role. However I received an email this morning that boss had made a TON of major changes to the project, which were all things they had said they would do if I were to leave. This is on top of the other stuff mentioned above. The project had been going well and I have a good relationship with our external stakeholder, so I’m not sure why my boss would usurp my role unless they expected me to leave.

        Reply ↓
        1. WellRed*

          Oh I wouldn’t assume your boss found out then. Proceed with caution but you definitely need to address what you are seeing,

          Reply ↓
    3. LynnP*

      Document everything that has been happening and bring it up. Make your manager own it. If he’s trying to push you out you don’t have anything to lose and perhaps something to negotiate a severance package with.

      Als, ramp up your job search. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    4. Ellis Bell*

      Name the new behaviours and refer to the meetings and leaving you out of the loop, and say you’re concerned. I would probably say something like “It’s worrying because it’s so different to what’s worked in the past. Also, (long term plans) will require me to be up to speed on (management decision). How will I meet next year’s targets if I don’t know about these things?” Just generally refer to events happening ages in the future. If this doesn’t prompt them to acknowledge the chance of you being gone by then directly, I might risk saying “I could be wrong, but things changed around the time I was approached by New Opportunity. I want to make it clear that this wasn’t something I sought, and I haven’t heard anything tempting enough from them for me to leave this position, as I’m really happy here.” or “It was intriguing, but not particularly tempting”. Even if you’re strongly tempted by the concept, you haven’t had a chance to interview them either, and you don’t even yet know if it’s a serious prospect. If you’re pressed for more details just say “All I can really say is that I’m not job hunting”. If you end up taking the job, just say “They addressed some of my main concerns so well, that I became convinced it could be a good move”.

      Reply ↓
  2. CherryBlossom*

    I am in a never-ending nightmare known as The Dishware Committee, and I need to know if this is as bananapants as it feels to me.

    Context: The company I work for is moving to a new office with an employee kitchen. As such, we need new dishes. Everywhere else I’ve worked, this would be a task for an office manager or a facilities team. Buy enough dishes for people in the office, maybe round up to account for things breaking, and call it a day.

    But not here! Everyone in the CEO office is part of The Dishware Committee. The CEO and CFO constantly change their mind. They want to see samples of everything, branded and nonbranded. What about printed? Or laser-engraved? Actually no, don’t brand anything. Wait, actually, brand everything! Their Executive Assistant insists that only she knows what they “really” mean, and is constantly chattering at me to change everything. Occasionally other people from other departments chime in, and everyone changes their mind AGAIN.

    As the lowest person on the totem pole, my job is to make spreadsheets detailing every single option we’ve gone over, update it when someone decides against something, and update it again when someone else decides they like that thing after all.

    I have spent the last month updating spreadsheets and researching every single type of dishware brand in existence. If I never see another plate again, it’ll be too soon.

    I feel like I’m the only person here that thinks this is a massive waste of time. But this can’t be normal, can it? Am I in the wrong, or is this really as bananapants as I think it is?

    Reply ↓
    2. UnCivilServant*

      These people are not a good fit for their roles. This is a task you delegate so you can focus on things that matter to the bottom line. One person, theoretically sane, should be doing this, without all the dithering.

      Reply ↓
    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      This is indeed a massive waste of time and this level of micromanaging from the CEO and CFO would slowly drive me to madness. Neither of them to be involved in this. No one does, but especially not them.

      Order plain white, get them from a restaurant supplier so you know they can hold up to industrial level use, and you’re done.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dishes*

        Yes. It’s a work kitchen used by many. Everything is going to get trashed, or go missing so nothing precious should be purchased. But… it seems like it’s really not up to OP, so just hope it ends soon? !

        Reply ↓
    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Banana pants and a waste of everyone’s time.

      Also, a PSA: Please consider relacing “As the lowest person on the totem pole” with “lowest person on the hierarchy” or similar, as the former phrase is an inaccurate depiction of indigenous culture.

      Reply ↓
    6. I think I'm the only one in the office here*

      Wow, even for bikeshedding, this is a lot of bikeshedding.

      If you can, I suggest embracing “they don’t pay me enough to care about it” and just update the spreadsheet BUT if this is taking time from your actual job, make sure you do your actual job first/keep your boss involved in how to prioritize your Actual Job vs. Picking The Color Of The Bikeshed

      Reply ↓
      1. RLC*

        This. Especially important to keep your boss informed if this absurd dishware selection exercise is affecting your ability to complete your assigned work. The dishware-obsessed higher ups are likely clueless on how much of your time their “project” has absorbed. They will then wonder why your assigned work is suffering and question your work performance. I’ve been down this road and yes, I’m still salty about it.

        Reply ↓
    7. learnedthehardway*

      I’d put it right up there with rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic – ie. completely beside the point, useless, and likely a detriment to the business as it is taking up time and energy that should be devoted to other things.

      Absolutely bananapants, for sure.

      Reply ↓
      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I can see why stuff like this can brainworm people though; it has no real consequences and appeals to the “shiny new stuff!” part of our brains, so it becomes This Whole Thing as a fun distraction from work. Fun for everyone but the OP, who is dealing with the heads of her company demanding spreadsheets about plates and cups.

        Reply ↓
    8. Oldsbone*

      Yes, it’s totally bananapants. Would they listen if you casually mentioned a rough dollar amount this has already cost your company on devoted salary time and encourage someone who can actually do it to just go ahead and make a decision? Other posters are right it should be an office manager or facilities director or something but it looks like the discussion has taken on a life of its own. Maybe a dollar amount given to the most level headed if your C-Suite will put an end to it. But if not, get some popcorn and/or discreetly start a betting pool with a few cynical coworkers, because what else can you do?

      Reply ↓
    9. goddessoftransitory*

      The hell??? Go to Costco, pick out a bunch of dishes, done. Who the hell brands the dishes in the company break room??

      Reply ↓
    10. Bluebell Brenham*

      Wow- I don’t have suggestions for you but it is bananapants. The one time I was in an org that decided to buy new dishware, the COO and her sister went to IKEA one weekend and bought dishes and flatware. Would it have been my choice? No. But did I care? No. My only advice is to buy more flatware than you think you need, and maybe stash an extra box somewhere for future replenishment.

      Reply ↓
      1. goddessoftransitory*

        ESPECIALLY spoons. I don’t know why it is, but spoons vanish twice as fast as anything else from our break room.

        Reply ↓
    11. The OG Sleepless*

      Good grief. I’ve never even seen a full matching set of dishware in an office break room. It’s normally a random assortment of about five plates that rocked up from someone’s old apartment. When would everybody even need a plate from the break room at the same time? Anyway, yes, if this really needs to happen, a normal company would just send the office manager to Costco for some dishes.

      Reply ↓
    12. WellRed*

      Are you sure the exec assistant isn’t the one being difficult here? Maybe the c suites don’t know how much time is being wasted. I’d total that time up, select a few sturdy options from a restaurant supply place with pricing and present it. Maybe they’ll start this insanity all over again, maybe they’ll get their shit together.

      Reply ↓
  3. Kat Maps*

    My department is swamped by work that needs to be completed before Christmas. I’m in a unionized workplace, where overtime is rare, and our managers have to request it from …some higher power unknown to me.

    I’ve had coworkers (who have different managers than me) tell me that they’ve been working late into the evenings and on weekends to try to keep on top of their work. This isn’t approved overtime – they’re working unpaid hours.

    My manager has actually offered me overtime. I won’t work outside my core hours without being compensated, but I feel terribly about my coworkers who have been. I don’t know if they’ve been offered overtime.

    I’m feeling conflicted – I feel so angry on their behalf that they’re having to work so hard to keep on top of work, and I feel like their managers should know – all of our department managers should know that what they’ve assigned to us is unrealistic and causing immense burnout. And I also don’t want to create animosity amongst my coworkers if I do paid overtime. It feels really unfair, and I don’t know if I should just accept the overtime and keep my mouth shut, or actually say something to my coworkers, or management… Can I please have some outside perspective on this?

    Reply ↓
    1. lurkyloo*

      You can’t control what others do or feel. I’m the same way. If you want to do OT without compensation of any sort, that’s up to you. I won’t do it.
      You take care of you and let them take care of them. :) If they ask, don’t lie, but you don’t have to offer it either. And you could support them in pushing back, if they want you to.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hazel*

      Lurkyloo is right, but if your manager is sympathetic and is paying OT, maybe mention to them that you appreciate the acknowledgment that this takes extra hours and you’re concerned that others aren’t getting OT? The manager might mention it to their peers or boss.

      Reply ↓
    3. upwardlibrarian*

      Do you know if your coworkers have actually asked for overtime, or are they just assuming the unpaid extra work is expected of them? Have they even told their managers that they’re overwhelmed? Unless you know them to be unreasonable people, or you think you’ll get backlash from your boss, I’d say share the info. It might encourage them to ask for the money or set better boundaries.

      But if they don’t get the same offer, that’s not your fault. It’s also not on you to fix the situation for everyone.

      Reply ↓
    4. AlsoAFed*

      It sounds like they’re choosing to work unpaid overtime (which they shouldn’t be!). But that’s not on you, that’s on them. You have correctly set a boundary that you won’t work overtime without being paid for it. Think of yourself as a good example.
      norto

      Reply ↓
    6. Ellis Bell*

      Why would this create animosity amongst your colleagues in a unionised workplace? Share the real information with them, or with the union. How else do people get paid equitably without people discussing pay? This a great way to back them up. Even just informally urging them to push to get paid OT is powerful. I’d you think it’s at all the kind of thing that would see you retaliated against, get your union to do it.

      Reply ↓
    7. Gatomon*

      Your coworkers shouldn’t be working unapproved overtime! If your employer finds out, they might face disciplinary action*. And they’re making the workload look more manageable than it actually is by clocking less hours than it actually takes. This is only going to compound the situation because management won’t see the effects of being understaffed. Why are they volunteering themselves to be taken advantage of??

      I would suggest they stop and make it clear that your overtime *is* approved. Maybe they have approval for x hours and they’re working x + y hours, or maybe they have no overtime approval, but whatever it is, they should adhere to it to protect themselves.

      As for telling management, I’d only consider doing so if they absolutely refused to stop working unapproved overtime and you are okay with the potential fallout of these employees getting into trouble and tracing it back to you. Otherwise I’d just let it be, because sooner or later it’ll come out anyway, and it won’t be worth getting wrapped into the drama. (I’m assuming you’re non-management here though.)

      *While they may insist they weren’t told to work unpaid, it still opens the company up to legal issues.

      Reply ↓
    8. Observer*

      I also don’t want to create animosity amongst my coworkers if I do paid overtime.

      If your coworkers are halfway decent people, there should be no animosity to you.

      actually say something to my coworkers, or management

      You are in a unionized workplace, and *this* is what unions were made for. Suggest to your coworkers that they need to talk to the union about the *illegal* unpaid overtime they are being forced to do.

      If you have decent relationships with management, aside from your boss who is doing the right thing here, you should mention that “we could get into legal trouble over the unpaid over-time in those departments.”

      Reply ↓
  4. Anon for this one*

    Any advice about dealing with feedback that feels like it’s about a fundamental element of your personality?

    I went for a promotion, which I didn’t get and the main point of feedback is that I tend to be a bit fixed in my ideas. I mentioned it to my husband who said “no comment” (as in — “yes, that sounds exactly like you”). I’ve thought about it and it’s almost certainly true of my outlook on life outside of work as well as at work. In a work context, I would characterise it as having an understanding of our organisational objectives and taking the course of action that I think best promotes them. (I work in the public sector, so this is about choosing the outcome that I view as being in the public interest.)

    Since getting the feedback, I’ve been trying to make a point of demonstrating where I am open to different possible outcomes. But I’m wondering if that’s going to be enough or if I will have to accept that I can’t get promoted in my current role because of this perception about me/reality.

    Reply ↓
    1. bunniferous*

      This sounds like it is a very important bit of feedback for you not just workwise but in life.
      Since your husband said what he said -this sounds like it is important enough for you to actually work on. Even in therapy or life coaching if need be. Openness to new ideas is an important value to have in life even if you wind up choosing your original outlook.

      Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Did they offer anything beyond “fixed in your ideas”? i.e. an example where you thought you were serving public interest by doing X, but the data suggested that you really should have done Y instead? Like, are you wrong or are there just a variety of options to choose from and you choose the one that makes the most sense to you?

      Sometimes organizational objectives can come in conflict with one another, so while you might think X is the best option in the public’s interest, there may be a competing priority that your leadership team might think is important above and beyond what the public interest is. Do they communicate that sort of thing and are you open to it when they do?

      ” I’ve been trying to make a point of demonstrating where I am open to different possible outcomes.”

      Are there places where you should be open but you’re not? You said that you’re demonstrating where you’re open to other possibilities, but I wonder if it’s less about being open in specific instances vs open to other ideas in general. If I’m open to other ideas about what we should do about X, but it’s minor in the grand scheme of what we’re doing, that’s probably not going to come across as me being open.

      Reply ↓
    3. Diatryma*

      I have also gotten feedback about rigidity and black-and-white thinking, and I’m trying to demonstrate that I do have flexibility and can handle things not going my way.

      What I try to do is not comment on things I disagree with once the decision has been made. Supervisor decides, and I think it’s not going to work– they know I think that, since I told them, and that’s okay. Once the decision is made, the time to complain about it is done.

      Sometimes, flexibility is more than saying there can be more than one acceptable outcome and asking someone else for input. Accepting a decision from higher up with grace is also flexibility.

      Reply ↓
      1. Diatryma*

        Also: right now, you see this feedback as you being flexible enough and supervisors not realizing this. Can you instead reframe it that the supervisors accurately assessed your flexibility and say you need more? Don’t try to prove that you’re already being flexible– be more flexible than you have been.

        Reply ↓
      2. Anon for this one*

        That’s a great perspective, but not related to my current feedback. Once a decision has been taken on something related to my core work, I respect it and implement it. This is more that I might be too rigid in the way I present things to senior decision makers.

        (HR decisions, I maybe a bit less deferential, but commenting on that is normal in my workplace. The person who got the promotion I went for is even more vocal when they disagree with HR-type decisions.)

        Reply ↓
      3. Csethiro Ceredin*

        This is a really good way of thinking about it, which I hadn’t considered before. Looking back on colleagues I thought of as unhelpfully rigid, this was a big part of it. If we have a new website, resisting using it and reiterating complaints about it isn’t helping anyone because it’s here now and we are using it.

        The other way this manifested is needing more than usual levels of support for any minor decision that wasn’t black or white. It’s hard feedback to give, because you WANT people to ask questions or check their thinking if they need to, but for most roles I would have been reluctant to promote someone who needed this far more than others.

        Reply ↓
    4. I like bananas*

      After a few months of being more open, I would go back to whomever gave you feedback and ask if they see a difference. But if you work in government, you might want to reflect if you actually want a promotion. Lots of government work involves political compromise that may or may not actually be in support of the Department mission. For example, if you are in the USA, think of the EPA. With the change on the presidency lots of policies about climate change are about to change. If you worked there – could you adapt or are you fixed on what is good for your constituents and the Dept mission?

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon for this one*

        I’m not in the US and my employer is not political — some of the things we do eventually need government sign off, but the day-to-day, not so much. I would need to go up about 3-4 levels from where I am not to have political interference as a concern.

        Reply ↓
    5. upwardlibrarian*

      Can you ask for specific examples at work? If you want to fix the problem, you’re going to need to understand exactly what’s going wrong. Getting examples might also help you understand if this is something you can change.

      If they don’t give you any, I’d suggest reflecting on the times you’ve disagreed with decisions made by your management and colleagues. How did you handle those disagreements? Did you ask for the other person’s point of view and try to come up with a solution that addresses their concerns?

      And then ask yourself how bothered you are by the decisions being made by management – if you can live with them or if you truly think they’re bad for the organization/public in a major way. If it’s the latter, you’re probably better off looking for a workplace that better aligns with your perspective.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon for this one*

        There have been specific examples, but it’s hard to share without losing anonymity.

        Imagine that I work in a role where I have to make recommendations about whether a teapot manufacturer is allowed to sell its teapots in a certain market. The rigidity is in how I approach the teapot manufacturer and how much I think they should be allowed to cut corners before they aren’t allowed to sell their teapots any more.

        I am making recommendations to more senior people and if they disagree with my assessment about the degree of corner cutting and whether that should matter, they have the final say, not me. And there is always an opportunity for them to ask me for more information or for us to have a discussion before any decision is taken. Often the decision has to go before a committee and I present my views there and answer questions from the committee. But the feedback is that how I present my views to those senior people is perceived as too rigid.

        In the case of the promotion, it was about one of the examples I gave in the interview. One of the interviewers thought I had been too hard on the teapot company — they didn’t have all the facts because it was only a five minute section of the interview, so I’d had to edit out some details. When the interviewer asked some follow-up questions, I explained why I thought the customers for this type of teapot were particularly vulnerable and therefore deserved additional protection. In the example I gave, everyone at the time had been 100% in agreement that the teapot manufacturer should be prevented from selling these teapots, but the interviewer thought I was too rigid.

        There are other examples of where I have gone to those committees to try and get a concession that the teapot manufacturer wants, only to be blocked by Legal or someone else.. But those examples didn’t come up in this interview.

        Reply ↓
    6. WellRed*

      Would the promotion have had people reporting to and you haven’t had that before? Because it’s definitely important in that context. I do think you could go back and ask for examples.

      Reply ↓
    1. TechWriterToo*

      Very few tech writers have degrees directly adjacent to the job. There are a few English majors, but it tends to be a job people fall into.

      Relevant prrp/experience is going to depend on the type of technical writer. In the best case scenario you will have the basic education/experience of your target audience, but that can be difficult to find in some cases. For example, I moved from working as a software engineer/developer to writing database/API/developer tool documentation. I was the target audience for my work so I knew what people needed to know and I could push back on design choices that didn’t make sense (in many cases, the tech writer serves as the user experience person too).

      There are some environments where tech writers get to interview subject matter experts and rely solely on their expertise, but they tend to be mainly at (some) large companies and those environments make the tech writer very dependent on others to do anything. If you look for those environments, a journalism or similar background is helpful as interviewing is a key skill.

      So think about the type of tech writing you want to do, the type of company you want to work at, how much agency you want over your work, and then think about what users of the products and services of those orgs typically involve.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Thank you to LW who send in updates and Alison for contacting LWs to encourage them to send in updates. I appreciate all of them, including the ones where the best path forward was “I found a new job.”

      Reply ↓
  7. upwardlibrarian*

    Public library folks, I need interview wardrobe help!

    For managerial roles in suburban or urban libraries, do I need a blazer, or is a cardigan appropriate? I’m looking at mostly assistant branch manager or librarian II positions.

    Reply ↓
    1. Lissa Landon*

      Often, library interviews can be fairly casual, but if you’re not sure about this particular library, and you’re applying for a role in management, I’d suggest a jacket of some sort. That said, I would guess that over 80% of the time, a cardigan would be absolutely fine for a middle management interview in a public library system. I think I wore a structured sweater/jacket the last time I interviewed for (and got) a job.

      Reply ↓
    2. goddessoftransitory*

      It never hurts to dress upscale for the interview. Not like, a ballgown, obviously, but even if the place is more casual day to day it shows you are taking the job interview process seriously.

      Reply ↓
    3. Dragonwriter*

      Even for a library, I would suggest going for a blazer for an interview, especially in a management role. The cardigan is a library classic for a reason, but a little to day to day for an interview.

      Reply ↓
  8. LinkedIn Anonymous*

    What does it mean when somebody you’ve never worked with or met requests to connect on LinkedIn? I don’t typically accept these requests, but we looked at this person’s profile a few times in hiring. She may have even gone through a first round interview. I’ve since left that job and she requested to connect but hasn’t said anything to me. Why do people ask to connect to people they don’t k ow and then not say anything? If I reach out to see what’s up, what can I say?

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I wouldn’t reach out. She’s the one who wants the connection, so she can reach out.

      It reminds me of people who just add any and all people who request connection on Facebook. Building a huge network of people in hopes something good might come of it, but really something good will only happen if you know and connect meaningfully with people, which is unlikely when you’re spamming follow request everywhere.

      Reply ↓
    2. I like bananas*

      There are “open connectors” on LinkedIn. I’m one of them with hundreds of connections. I give frequent public speeches and “meet” lots of folks that way. Most never reach out. But on a rare occasion they do. Sometimes it’s an interchange of value for both parties and that’s why I accept random invites. I occasionally get a random request for a job or a sales pitch that has nothing to do with my industry. I immediately delete those without guilt or a second thought.

      Reply ↓
    3. Redaktorin*

      It seems like she’s just more casual about LinkedIn connections than you are? A lot of people friend randoms in the same industry just because it pays to know the people who may be posting jobs you could apply to, it’s a way to get more pertinent-to-you posts in your feed, etc.

      Reply ↓
    4. Seashell*

      Maybe she got the version of LinkedIn where she can see who looked at her profile and made the request because you looked? Maybe LinkedIn sent an e-mail suggesting that she connect with you and she blindly follows these suggestions?

      Reply ↓
    5. learnedthehardway*

      It could be that the person is just trying to build their network – it makes sense to build your network within your industry or functional area. You don’t have to reach out or respond, if you do choose to accept the connection – if the person has something specific to ask you, they’ll message.

      I have an enormous network because of the work I do – recruitment. I am constantly reaching out to people as part of my work. I get random requests to connect all the time, and if it looks like I would ever possibly want to speak with the person, I accept. I’m a LION – ie. “LinkedIn Open Networker”, which means I am very willing to connect with people.

      The only connection requests I don’t accept are ones that are obviously trying to sell me something I have no interest in, ones that are clearly just looking for ways to emigrate from their current country (I have no ability generally to recruit people unless they are already in Canada and legal to work here), or obvious scammers.

      Reply ↓
    6. Lissa Landon*

      I accept LinkedIn requests if there is some work-related reason they may want to contact me (other than to sell me a library product that is not under my purview). But I don’t use LinkedIn for anything other than to give people a way to contact me if they don’t have my email or phone number or to contact someone for whom I don’t have other contact information (and only for work-related things)

      Reply ↓
  9. Tradd*

    I’d appreciate any advice from those who work with an overseas team. I’m a customs broker in the US. Part of the ownership (small freight forwarder) is from Asia (US citizen though, been here for decades). We have our own office in that Asian country with staff who are both support (get documents from overseas agents, interface with overseas agents, etc.) and as an extension of our import team (forward documents to my customs brokerage department, act as customer service with some US customers). Also help office manager with accounting stuff. English is second official language for their country, so written communication is fairly decent. One or two who speak better English will sometimes call us in the US and act as spokesperson when on Teams calls with the US. *Note: they don’t do any customs stuff as CBPO requires that to be done in the US.* They were quite good until about 6 months ago, then they collectively fell off the wagon. It’s almost like there was something in the water. *Everyone* in my US office is having issues with them.

    Example: we tell them that the shipment files in the system have to be opened a specific way. Explicit directions are given, complete with screen shots. They do something totally different. When asked why, they can’t answer. They’re supposed to be putting shipment documents in the system when they get them. They don’t. They don’t mark milestones in the system that indicate we have docs when you look at the daily report. They don’t name the document uploads properly so you have to open multiple file attachments to find the correct one. This is a massive problem and part of the reason we can’t even think about going paperless for the customs brokerage dept right now. When they enter a US company in the software, they format the address the overseas way, not the US way. Why we have to keep reminding them to format addresses the US way, I have no idea. Some of the overseas staff have been with the company for years.

    Even the owners/executives who are from the same country as our overseas office and are native speakers of the same language have issues getting through to the overseas office staff that they need to do better. I have to spend so much time documenting what they’re doing wrong (emails, screen shots) and send them on. I am at my wits’ end!

    Reply ↓
    1. A.P.*

      Did anyone recently quit the office overseas? Perhaps there was one person holding everything together and making sure all the work was being done properly. And when they left, everything went kablooey.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tradd*

        That’s what I thought at first, but nope. All the same staff in the overseas office. The office manager is having massive issues with the folks who she works with on accounting issues, so totally separate from the people I work with handling documents and shipping issues.

        Reply ↓
          1. Tradd*

            I’ve asked multiple times. I’m always told all staff is the same and no one has left. The people I always deal with are the same.

            Reply ↓
      2. LuckySophia*

        Seconding A.P.’s idea that the One Competent Person may have vanished. I had this happen (in reverse) some years ago. The team in India (to whom Corporate had outsourced web site updates) could not, would not, follow directions/observe schedules/quality-check their work — despite weekly reminders/follow-up emails FOR TWO YEARS. Suddenly, a new primary contact person arrived on scene. And miraculously, things started going according to plan.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tradd*

          I’ve asked multiple times. I’m always told all staff is the same and no one has left. The people I always deal with are the same.

          Reply ↓
    2. Observer*

      Even the owners/executives who are from the same country as our overseas office and are native speakers of the same language have issues getting through to the overseas office staff that they need to do better.

      SOMETHING has to have happened there.

      My first thought is that a political or big natural event in that country has thrown everyone and everything off kilter. There has been a fair amount of stuff going on in many countries in that part of the world.

      My second thought is forensic. Is your cybersecurity really up to par? Do you have good and broad logging, so you see what’s going on with all your systems and on the Asian site?

      Reply ↓
      1. Tradd*

        Yes, cybersecurity is good. They’re on the same system we are, which is hosted locally in our head US office (where I am). I can tell you nothing major politically is going on in that country. I won’t name it for obvious reasons, but I keep up with international news. I can tell you for sure it’s not China!

        Reply ↓
        1. Observer*

          Yeah, I wasn’t thinking China. But Pakistan, Taiwan and Japan have had a fair number of both political (especially Pakistan) and natural major events that have had some real repercussions. And those are just the ones I checked for.

          They’re on the same system we are, which is hosted locally in our head US office (where I am).

          I would honestly suggest a good look at all of the logging, as well as any security footage you have of their offices.

          Reply ↓
            1. Observer*

              I hear. But really, do look at what’s been going on. There are a lot of things that happen that don’t hit the news in the West but which are literally world shattering for people.

              I’m not going to list any other examples, because that’s not the point. My point just is that there are a lot of major events that you would never hear of unless you are following the news from that country – and even then maybe not, depending on the press in that country. And it’s possible that the owners are more tapped into this than you are and are aware of whatever it is, but haven’t connected the dots.

              Now, I sure could be wrong about that. But if I checked it out and I turnout to be wrong, I would *definitely* be looking at logs and security camera footage.

              Reply ↓
  10. Upside down Question Mark*

    AAM makes me reflect a lot. I’m wondering what I should have done in a creepy situation? Back as an 18 year old at uni, I took an “social entrepreneurship” class (which now I’m my 30s with an MBA seems sketchy?) Anyway, the “guest professor” spent an entire class reviewing the need to fully vet anyone you invest with because he accepted everyone’s word that his wife was a lovely person. Apparently she received a mental health diagnosis at some point he didn’t like, and he felt deceived by all around him and got divorced. He referred to his story in examples and assignments.
    Looking back, I feel like I should have reported this weird guy somehow, but we were at a fundamentalist Christian school and taught God chose all of our teachers (another problem). But what would have been a script I could have used?

    I ask because a young relative still in that org will be attending this school and I want her to be more prepared than I was that sometimes people are creeps.

    Reply ↓
    1. I think I'm the only one in the office here*

      You couldn’t have fixed this and your young relative cannot fix this. It’s tempting to believe that one person standing up in class can say “Professor, respectfully, get over it”. But someone who makes everything about his grievances against his ex-wife is not going to be stopped by one of his students.

      What you can do: talk to your relative about some people being creeps! And how to mentally reframe things. Maybe some scenario work. Like:

      You: Relative, here’s a scenario. You’re in a class. It’s too late to drop it. Your professor keeps talking weirdly about his ex-wife and stigmatizes mental health problems and blames everyone for his divorce other than himself, the one who instigated the divorce. What would you think first do in that situation? Remember, you need this grade for your GPA and you can’t drop the class, but you need to keep yourself sane, too.

      Reply ↓
      1. Upside down Question Mark*

        absolutely excellent suggestion! I’ve been coming at it from a place of post therapy and processing and what she needs are the basic skills I didn’t have. thank you so much!

        Reply ↓
    2. Seashell*

      In that environment, “The speaker talked positively about his divorce” might hold more water than “This was an inappropriate topic for discussion, and his views on mental illness are repugnant”, even if the latter is true.

      Reply ↓
    3. Observer*

      I feel like I should have reported this weird guy somehow

      I don’t think there is anything to report per se. Now, if a school has a way to provide general feedback, then sure, this something to give feedback on because it is *terrible* teaching, and he’s a major league jerk. He also sounds like a first class idiot as well as having a poor understanding of what is generally appropriate to share with your students.

      I ask because a young relative still in that org will be attending this school and I want her to be more prepared than I was that sometimes people are creeps.

      That’s a different issue. And I would have a chat with her and say just that “Sometimes people are all types of weird and creepy. They say inappropriate things. Even teachers. So, if someone says something that you find gross or inappropriate, don’t assume that it’s a you problem.” But also, not every weird, creepy, or inappropriate thing is a big deal. So this guy is going on about his ex-wife? That’s inappropriate, but ok, you won’t have to deal with him once class is done. He starts hitting on students or making suggestive comments? NO. *That* is something that needs to be reported to the upper administration and stopped IMMEDIATELY.

      Reply ↓
  11. Beth**

    Argh, I just got sent a request to say how many hours I’ve worked on a particular project for every month from March to November. Nobody told me when I started working on this that there would be a requirement to track hours. This will be used for billing an external party, so I need to be accurate. Our email system deletes everything more han 6 months old, so I can’t even look back on emails to figure out when I started working on this thing!

    Reply ↓
    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      That is terrible of the team/project/account leads.

      A few other sources:
      *Call logs on your office or personal phone
      *Any calendar records (do those go back farther than email?)
      *Talk with your IT team, they may have an email archive you (as a regular user) can’t access

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        Talk with your IT team, they may have an email archive you (as a regular user) can’t access

        I’d be willing to bet that this exists, because there are so many situations where you *have* to have those records.

        Reply ↓
    2. Upside down Question Mark*

      holy moly I would be so pissed. Could you follow up with the person who gave you the request to see if they have any ideas? if it were me, I would actually use AI to help me come up with an estimation because if you provide the right parameters, it could give you a fairly objective view which is helpful if you tend to undersell yourself or overestimate any aspects of one piece or another. a prompt I would use would be something like:

      “I am a llama groomer for x company (or vague company description), and now need help to generate an approximate amount of hours I’ve worked across time on a project. here are some facts, but I’m afraid I tend to underestimate how much work and time I usually spend on x, y, z so please help me come up with some possible curved percentages to add to my own evaluation if necessary:
      – project start date
      – number of days a week worked
      – subtract holidays and sick days
      – add any overtime hours
      – {go to email and check folders for numbers of emails sent and received related to project} I’ve sent and received this many emails
      – I’ve created x number of llama blankets, the average taking me this amount of times
      – I’ve had on average x number of x length meetings (you can filter search your meetings app for this)
      – I’ve traveled to x places (if you have Google and have timeline activated in maps you can actually see how many times you’ve been to certain places)
      -x other quantifiable aspects of your work

      —

      you will think of more as you go I am sure, but I am curious what other colleagues in your dept or network claim for hours as that might also help!

      Reply ↓
  12. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

    One theme that always comes up this time of the year = HOLIDAY OFFICE GATHERINGS.

    We see letters from people who are excluded and feel hurt (e.g. a long-time contract employee who is not a direct company employee, or a remote office with two or three people who could actually GET to the party if invited, or people who work a night shift, etc. etc.)

    The plan is simple =

    MAKE SURE EVERYBODY IS INCLUDED. If cost is a factor, it is far better to cut back per-person expenses … really … than to plan more extravagance that requires you leave some people out.

    WHY? The purpose of a holiday party is to allow your employees (and contractors) to unite,
    and bond with each other, and to build office morale.

    Excluding people does the opposite. So – if you’re in charge of your office holiday party – think of inclusiveness. This is supposed to be a unifying event – not a DIVISIVE one. And remember – above all – you can’t turn the clock back if you’ve caused the damage.

    Reply ↓
  13. AnonymousForThis*

    I started my job in spring of this year after my last job was going to be outsourced to a different country.

    At first, I was happy. But then I realize I do not feel fulfilled at my current job as much as I thought I was, and that I only took this job because I was about to get laid off. The pay is slightly lower, but not so much lower that it affects my finances and lifestyle. Also, I am bored and there is one part of my job I really hate doing but I will not mention what it is exactly; I just will not mince words about it. Plus, there is no opportunity for growth as I am the only internal employee working in my field here. Also, I realized I am worth more and want to be paid accordingly, though the pay cut is not a direct factor here. I mean in general.

    I have been applying for jobs for months now with some interviews in between, but no offer as of yet. Plus, as I am employed, I am also being very choosy about where I want to work next. It is not like I am unemployed and desperate for money. I know the job market is not the best right now so I am also being patient.

    What suggestions do you have to hang in there until I get an offer? Were any of you in the same or similar situation before? How did you go about it?

    Reply ↓
    1. Upside down Question Mark*

      yes several times and what gets you through while job searching are two key things: remembering the job market is particularly shitty right now and making sure your personal life is very very fulfilling to you. I can’t emphasize this enough. I have had such a fascinating career all over the world but the past three years have been by all standards very boring. However, I learned that the single best cure for boredom or burnout (where you can’t control the source of either of those, ie your present job) is not to dwell on the aspects of it you wish you could cut but instead add more to your personal life. Join a club, write a book, start hiking, do something so weird and absolutely out of character for yourself like standup or joining synchronized swimming, that your brain really begins to grow around preparing and living for those new doses of dopamine. basically increase novelty elsewhere and you’ll find you really dont mind your job!

      my boss (think of my job as something like accounting), just went to internationals for a really weird exotic sport. a colleague teaches painting classes with live nudes he organizes from his neighborhood, another keeps randomly wearing different wigs every time we see her. I hike, quilt, write, meet up with friends, video game, etc so I have so much to be excited about outside of work I really don’t dread work at all.

      Reply ↓
  14. softcastle*

    Does anyone here have experience working for an entrepreneur/small business, and if so…are jobs like this just doomed to be somewhat toxic? I come from a large corporate background with a lot of structure, so some of the behaviors from our CEO/owner at this job just seem absolutely clownshoes crazy to me (but my other officemates are used to it).

    The final straw was an email from our boss on Tuesday evening letting us know that we suddenly have to work mandatory overtime every week until after New Years in order to help the warehouse pick/pack customer orders on time. In addition, we will have to work all 5 Saturdays too from 9am-6pm (any exceptions need her express permission). But don’t worry–to compensate this very large and last-minute ask, she’s stocking the fridge with free beer for “her special elves to enjoy”!

    I just can’t help but find this to be a wildly inappropriate ask when given zero notice, especially considering two other things:

    1. We as employees are all required to give no less than 1 month notice for all requested PTO days (otherwise she won’t approve it, unless it’s an emergency)
    2. She never shows up to the office herself, and only works about 6 hours in-office a week (she is often on vacations and at various influencer events).

    Everyone in the office is grumbling about it but accepting things because it “is the way it is.” I’m already starting to look around for other jobs, because that’s really all that’s in my control, but…am I the a**hole for thinking this ask was kind of disrespectful?!

    Reply ↓
    1. UnCivilServant*

      You’re not wrong, this is exceedingly disrespectful.

      If she’s not there, who is running the day to day? Was there any indicator that this was supposed to be paid overtime? Why not hire some seasonal folks for the crunch time?

      Reply ↓
      1. softcastle*

        She did say the overtime would be paid (except for weeks where there is a paid holiday), and that we were lucky to be encouraged to take paid overtime when other bosses don’t like to do that. She didn’t feel like hiring part-time help because in past years she felt like they were “flaky.”

        She expects us to kind of manage ourselves, and will occasionally check in with a comment on Slack or send a “what’re you doing today” email. One of our employees is kind of her “right hand man”–we don’t technically report to him and his position doesn’t technically cover this work, but he takes care of all the day-to-day stuff for her, essentially.

        “HR” is a part-time consultant who is her personal friend, so any complaints just get directly fed back to our boss and she takes them very personally.

        Reply ↓
    2. Tradd*

      Will you actually be paid for the OT? aka are you hourly or salaried? You are not the ahole. Boss is. I’ve dealt with some toxic shit, but this is bananapants!

      Reply ↓
      1. softcastle*

        We are definitely hourly thank goodness.

        I truly can’t believe some of the stuff that goes on here–I tried to stick it out for a full year so as not to seem like a job hopper, but my goodness, I think I’m just going to start looking for something new ASAP.

        Reply ↓
    3. Peanut Hamper*

      My last job was with a very small company (<16 people). A few highlights:

      -The boss (who was also the owner) would get physically angry and pound his fists on the table during meetings or shove things in the warehouse into the wall.
      -The boss (who was married) was sleeping with one of my coworkers (also married) the entire time I was working there.
      -The boss was an alcoholic who sometimes would sit in his office and drink an entire bottle of booze throughout the day. (One evening he drove home after we had all left for the day and crashed his car into something. We never knew what because he couldn't remember. He could have killed somebody.)
      -The boss would get drunk in the evening and begin sending us angry rants via text that went on until long after midnight.
      -The boss emphasized that this company "was just like family" meaning that we should have absolutely no boundaries whatsoever.
      -I was expected to do a lot of work on my own time during lunch and weekends without compensation (including comp time) because I was salaried and after all, "we're just like family".
      -I was given one task, and then given another, and then another, continually throughout the day or week, and then got yelled at for never getting anything done.

      Because the boss was also the owner and there was no HR department, there was just no way to deal with any of this. I left and never looked back. I have worked for a lot of different sized companies and never had to deal with the level of bullshit here that I had to at any larger company. I will never work for a small company ever again.

      Your boss seems to be of a similar type. She is an absolute un-self-aware ass. Find a different job and get out ASAP because nothing about what you have described is normal.

      Reply ↓
      1. softcastle*

        WOWWWW. This is really, really similar to what I’m experiencing here too, except replace alcoholism and sleeping around with constant influencer photoshoots and last-minute vacations.

        Sigh.

        Reply ↓
      2. UnCivilServant*

        I don’t know what kind of family these sorts of bosses come from, but mine has boundaries. We help each other, but If you’re prone to taking advantage of this, you lose the privilege.

        Reply ↓
      3. softcastle*

        WOWWW. This seems very similar to what I’m experiencing here, except replacing alcoholism and sleeping around with constant influencer photoshoots and last-minute vacations.

        Sigh.

        Reply ↓
  15. OverTimeStudy*

    How to work with a boss who expects you to volunteer personal hours of your work hours?

    Context: I am NOT in the USA or Canada.

    So I was hired for a Sales job around three months ago. Being in sales, it’s a must that I have a great knowledge of the products I’m selling. And I get it. BUT.

    My boss expects me to study or read through the thick manuals outside of my work hours. Every week he’s been asking me how much hours I’ve put into it and occasionally quizzes me on those materials. If I can’t answer or answer it wrong, he’d say things like how I didn’t study enough. This is all unpaid, yes.

    I’ve tried to bring it up. For the month of November alone, I’d say I’ve accumulated about an extra 20 hours for these study sessions. I’ve asked my boss if there’s any way to just add the study time into my original work hours or to submit an overtime request so I can get paid for these unpaid hours.

    He looked at me puzzled. He said that it’s pretty much a given that I’d need to sacrifice some personal time if I want to survive in this position. Having a deep knowledge of our products so that we can obtain a sale literally equals to our KPI. Again I GET that there’s expectation of the kind of work. But I still feel I should be compensated properly.

    It is sort of a cultural norm where I live that overtimes aren’t paid and that we should volunteer our time for work. What can I say to my boss to make him understand this doesn’t seem right? Or am I being too entitled?

    Reply ↓
    1. Csethiro Ceredin*

      I’m in Canada so our cultural expectations are, as you say, different.

      But it’s odd to me that he is asking how many HOURS you spent rather than being concerned with whether you learned the information. It’s almost like this is about “what are you willing to do for us” rather than “what is your product knowledge.”

      I’m not sure that I have any advice, but this seems like a worrying mindset on your boss’s part.

      Maybe you can ask what he sees as a normal amount of time outside work hours for people to spend, and how this changes over time as they get over the initial learning hump. Depending on your relationship you could say you are finding this amount of time onerous and unsustainable long term given that it’s unpaid. And if you have any colleagues/peers you can ask about their experience that might help too.

      Reply ↓
  16. Sister George Michael*

    Background: I’m neurodivergent. I’m a manager. I am BEC for my manager Rita (all names made up!). I do my job really well but my personality rubs her the wrong way (even though I’ve really tried to not get on her nerves). If I do something that irritates her, Rita will tell Addie (another manager) who will tell me, and then I’ll try to explain.

    Most recently, a senior person whom I don’t supervise (Terry) was dragging her heels on a project. A number of people were asking me what was happening with it. I created a chat with Terry and other managers tangentially involved in the project (like myself) just to say “hey, I know this deadline is coming up. If there’s anything I can do to plan or help, just let me know!” (Rita erroneously thought I had added all involved staff members to the chat.) Rita told Addie that I had stepped on Terry’s toes; Addie told me to reach out to Terry. I did, and said ‘hey, I hope I didn’t step on your toes’ and she said ‘nope, no problem!’ I sent that message back up the whisper network.

    So obviously, it’s irritating and stressful that I’m BEC for Rita and that there is this whisper network where things aren’t said directly. But, I am worried that I did step on Terry’s toes. Maybe Terry felt that she couldn’t be honest with me and said it was fine just because she felt she had to say that to a manager. But, while I realize people might not be honest with me because I’m a manager…is there a way to find out if I really offended Terry? I don’t know a way to ask that question to get a true answer, and I would really like to know so I will be more careful next time. (I don’t mean that I’m going to keep hounding Terry about this, I just mean that I want to be more careful moving forward because I want a happy team.)

    Reply ↓

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