coworkers are attacking people over grammar, boss’s wife wants me to organize their house, and more

by Alison Green on December 31, 2024

I’m on vacation. Here are some past letters that I’m making new again, rather than leaving them to wilt in the archives.

1. Two coworkers are attacking people over grammar

At my company, we have a couple of grammar fanatics who go out of their way to correct people even when they’re not in the conversation. Sometimes this will even occur during important one-on-one meetings on projects that have tight deadlines. These two people will interject to say exactly what we said wrong, and how we should have said it. It annoys everyone, and we tried several times to get them to stop correcting everyone to no avail.

We have tried several things like stating that we don’t care if we are saying it wrong, throwing the logic out that if you understand what I am saying there is no need for correction, and some of us have even started changing our speaking habits so that we can stop being pestered over little mistakes. We have even found that sometimes they’re actually wrong on how they corrected us. When we confront them with this, they get extremely defensive, and more or less call all of us stupid for trying to look up something we clearly can’t understand.

I am at a loss of what to do here. At first I didn’t mind the occasional feedback, but they are starting to get more and more aggressive with their corrections and starting to blatantly call people under-educated, unprofessional, or just outright stupid. Half of me thinks its time to go to their manager (they have the same manager), but in the past when other coworkers would go to the manger over other issues with these two people, there would be a backlash from them. They would say that everyone is too “sensitive” and “can’t pull up their big boy/girl pants so they had to go to management.”

Is this something we should even bring up, or are we being too sensitive? Would just ignoring it be better to keep the relationship up with two people who I really don’t see leaving the company any time soon? (Seriously, several people have gone to their manager over similarly obnoxious things and nothing has come out of it.)

Normally would this would be something to address with their manager, because not only are they being annoying by weaponizing grammar like this, but they’re actually insulting people. Regularly, it sounds like.

But if your experience is that their manager won’t act, then you might be better off just ignoring them. They interject to correct something, and you just going right on talking as if you didn’t hear them. Or, when they correct you, you can say “I’m not interested in grammar corrections while I’m in casual conversation” — and repeat that as needed. There’s also, “It’s so weird that you think that’s appropriate” — but with the way you’ve described their hostility, I’d lean away from anything that might spur further engagement or attacks.

It’s also pretty messed up that their manager is allowing aggressively hostile behavior like insulting people, and you might consider whether there’s anyone else you could bring this to — your own manager or, ideally, someone who’s senior to their manager and has a track record of being willing to take on problems. If you do, part of the message to that person needs to be that these two have a history of attacking anyone who complains about them, and so part of addressing the grammar weaponization has to include laying out clear prohibitions on that as well.

– 2019

2. My boss’s wife wants me to organize their house

A few months ago, I started a job as a paid intern at a small marketing start-up. When my boss (the CEO) hired me on, he did say that the job sometimes involved not-so-glamorous tasks that everyone, including me, would complete, like cleaning and sorting the company’s storage unit, maintaining office space, taking out trash and recycling, packing and shipping, etc.

But recently, with his blessing, his wife has asked me to help her clean out all of her two children’s toys and sort them, organize a massive closet space including replacing shelves, clean out and organize her children’s art cabinet, clean out their “drop off” bench where they throw together jackets and purses and dirty socks, hang a bunch of hooks, and clean and organize her office. This is all at my boss’s home. The wife said this work would take three days to complete, and that I wouldn’t be able to do her work and the office work at the same time.

I feel like this work clearly crosses the line of what my job entails me to do. This isn’t for the company, this is my boss’s family’s personal, home life. On the other hand, I would (presumably) be getting PAID to do all of this work. Am I right in thinking this is wrong? Am I being taken advantage of? Or do I need to check myself? If it’s a problem, how would you mention it to my boss?

Yep, this is ridiculously inappropriate. You didn’t sign on to be a personal organizer in someone’s home. It’s true that jobs can sometimes shift, and sometimes you’ll be pulled into something you didn’t explicitly sign up for — but being asked to help someone with their personal tasks in their home is way outside of that.

It would be entirely reasonable for you to say to your boss, “I’m going to tell Jane that I can’t help with the personal tasks at your house. I really want to focus on the work I took the internship to do. I of course understand that tasks may shift and that I’ll need to do some cleaning and organizing here, but I’m not comfortable doing that for someone’s personal home rather than for the company.”

If your boss is at all reasonable, he should accept this. But if he’s not reasonable, there’s a chance that he’ll be unhappy, so you’ll want to go in knowing that’s a possible outcome. If it does happen, you can say, “I’ll certainly do whatever you need me to do here as part of my work, but I’m not comfortable helping anyone manage their home.” (Frankly, I also kind of want you to say “I would charge significantly more for that kind of work than what I’m being paid as an intern” — because I bet you’re getting a much lower hourly wage than what personal organizing normally costs.)

– 2018

3. I don’t want my manager to email my team when I’m out

I work in the accounting department, and I called out sick because my kids were sick. I came into work the next day and saw an email that was sent out by my boss to the whole accounting team with the subject line “Jane Smith will not be in today.” I was just wondering if that is really anyone’s business but my own and obviously the person to whom I called out (in this case being my direct boss). Every manager in my department sends out emails like this, but when a manager is out, I have noticed that no email is sent out.

I would think that putting an “out of office” reply to my email would be enough to notify people that I am out. Also, if it’s someone in the same office that is looking for me, if they notice that my computer is not on and it looks like I’m out, they should just be able to go to my boss directly if they needed something. I have heard people make comments about others who have been out, and I know other coworkers like to “track” that stuff, but in the end, I feel like it’s really no one’s business. The only person who should know if I’m out is my direct manager. And I also think that if an email has to be sent out, then it should be for everyone, not just a certain department, or a certain “level” of employee.

What your manager is doing is very, very normal. There’s no real expectation of privacy that your coworkers won’t be alerted when you’re out; to the contrary, many offices like to proactively inform people so that they’re not left guessing. (Having to judge from whether your computer is off or on isn’t a particularly efficient or effective method.) As for why not emails go out when managers are out, who knows — but you’re fighting a losing battle on this one; it’s just not going to be seen as a privacy violation. If someone is tracking your time off who shouldn’t be, address that directly — but it’s reasonable to send “Jane is out today” emails to your team.

– 2015

4. Making a special request for a staff photo

I’m hoping to get some outside perspective. I was just informed that my work will be taking professional photos of a bunch of positions, including mine. The problem? They take them from the left side, which is the side of my face that has a lot of scar tissue from a childhood accident. It’s not like I’m walking around with a very noticeable deformity (though it is visible enough for some people to feel the need to comment on it), but when I smile, very deep creases and puckering appear on that side of my face, and if I wear lipstick, I essentially have to redraw part of my lip. My family says I’m being overly self-conscious, but I don’t want the photo of me that gets put in a yearly publication or sent out to other organizations that I routinely work with to be one that draws attention to the fact that I have a scar and that it causes half my face to smile differently than the other half.

Am I being unreasonable in wanting to make this request? I fear I will get push back from some management (because my photo would be different than everyone else’s) and the photographer (because he comes in and sets up everything for photos from the left side). To add to the worries, I would be quite embarrassed if the person that was organizing the photo session told my coworkers about my request (not maliciously, there’s a lot of idle gossip and chit chat at my work) or, worse, felt the need to give me a pep talk on self love. I guess I’m torn on if this is something to worry about or just vanity.

No, it’s completely reasonable to want to take a photo from your other side! You don’t need to make a big deal about it. You can just tell the photographer, “I know you’re photographing people from the left side, but I have a lot of scar tissue there from an accident. So let’s take mine from the right and then, if they want them to be consistent, we can flip the image.” That’s a thing they can easily do. If you get any push-back, you can say, “Because of my accident, I’m really not comfortable having the focus be on the the scar tissue, but I think this plan will solve it nicely.” Because it will.

I hope you don’t get preached to about self-love, but if you do, you can shut that down with a withering look and a “That’s really not something we need to address here.”

– 2018

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{ 189 comments }

{ 189 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Daria grace*

    #3, I am so confused by what the problem is here. They’re not disclosing private info about WHY you’re not there, they’re sharing highly relevant to other people’s workflows, non-private information.

    An out of office reply is not going to be enough as people are often not going to be emailing you ahead of any appointments. A turned off computer doesn’t tell people if you’re coming in late due to an appointment so they can hold their question for an hour or not going to be there at all so they need to find someone else to help.

    Reply ↓
    1. RCB*

      Yeah, I too am SOOOOO confused how this person got so far away from the herd on this. This is just so normal I can’t stress enough how this isn’t even remotely controversial.

      I was the office manager for several years, and when someone was out I either had to tell everyone once in an email or tell everyone individually (so 9 different times that day) when they asked “where’s X today?”, because EVERYONE asks when someone is gone, and your manager doesn’t have time to answer everyone asking if someone is in today, email is easier.

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      1. bamcheeks*

        My guess is that it’s a hangover or a reaction to a very presenteeist culture where nobody is every supposed to off and any acknowledgement that someone is out feels like a scold? But it really shouldn’t be!

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        1. Sloanicota*

          Yeah I can easily understand this in a sick culture, particularly if someone is sick for a week so *every day* their manager sends an email making sure everybody knows it. And as OP says, nobody sends one for managers so it’s hard to say it’s necessary.

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      2. NotAnotherManager!*

        This is exactly why we have a basic set of steps everyone has to take when they’re out of office – OOO message up and let your team know. Especially if we’re down a person unexpectedly, I don’t want everyone else on the team to have to tell a dozen people that, yes, Bob is out today when they’re already covering his work.

        OP’s letter makes it sound like there are other issues at play, and I would have zero patience with people tracking their coworkers’ PTO or making snide comments about it.

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        1. Observer*

          and I would have zero patience with people tracking their coworkers’ PTO or making snide comments about it.

          True. In a way, that makes the question even odder to me. “I don’t want random people tracking my PTO. How do I make it stop?” would be a *hugely* understandable and I think it would get a huge amount of sympathy.

          “Why are people being allowed to know I’m out without making an effort to find out?” is a very weird detail to worry about. *Especially* with the bigger issues that seem to be at play.

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    2. Chirpy*

      I used to have a coworker who got very upset when the manager told the rest of us she wouldn’t be in that day, because she felt like it was some kind of invasion of privacy. Now, if the manager had told us details of why she wasn’t in, I would agree, but just a simple “Jane isn’t here today” is not that. We just needed to know she was gone so we weren’t looking for her!

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    4. Tradd*

      Forgot to mention in previous comment, I’ve had plenty of coworkers over the years who couldn’t be bothered to put an out of office on at all, not even when going on vacation. In those situations, an email to the office that X was on vacation from their boss was often the only way we knew someone was gone.

      Reply ↓
    5. WillowSunstar*

      Yeah, it’s bizarre. I once worked with a manager (not my boss) who was really, strangely threatened by people being honest about that she was out of office. (Not religious now but was raised that way, so generally have a habit of being honest unless I’ve got a good reason not to be.) In any case, no one warned me beforehand that I was supposed to lie about this (again I never really knew why) and was yelled at in front of everyone.

      Karma happened though, that manager eventually got herself fired several months after I found a job that paid more.

      Reply ↓
      1. CommanderBanana*

        I’ve had managers who were weirdly secretive about being out of the office, and it inevitably caused way more problems than if they had just said they were going to be out of the office. At my current job, the entire team puts their WFH/PTO days on our shared calendar…except, you guessed it, our boss.

        Hell, I even had a manager who hired a whole entire person, let them have regular WFH days when they were hired when no one else on the team did, didn’t tell anyone else, and then lied about it when we quite reasonably went, hey, where is New Coworker?

        Why she thought no one would notice that our brand-new team member was not in the office 1-2 days a week and how long she thought she could get away with claiming she didn’t know where they were, as opposed to just saying that the new hire had negotiated work from home days, I will never know.

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        1. Zelda*

          I’ve had managers who were weirdly secretive about being out of the office, and it inevitably caused way more problems than if they had just said they were going to be out of the office.

          So much this! The examples I’ve seen seemed to be rooted in hierarchy– ‘I approve or deny your vacation, but you don’t get any say in mine’ getting extended to ‘I don’t answer to you and I’ll go where I want when I want and I don’t have to say anything about it to you!’ Like, informing people is somehow submissively “reporting to” them. But an actual manager is someone their team relies on for certain work functions, especially information and priority-setting; having that disappear without being able to plan for the absence is terribly disruptive.

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    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Agreed– the only way this is inappropriate is if the manager adds WHY she’s out, and since we’re taking letter writers at their word I have to assume that they did not.

      Even if they have someone else in the office who is tracking co-workers’ absences, the problem is that co-worker not the manager.

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      1. Roland*

        I ain’t never nohow nowhere heard of such a thing — attackin’ the Grammar of others.
        Why, my Grammar’s upstairs sleepin’!

        Reply ↓
    7. doreen*

      What confuses me is that the OP apparently feels like it’s no one else’s business if they are out – but then goes on to say they can tell by the out-of-office email (which they presumably send) or by seeing their computer is not on. It’s apparently not a problem if people know, the only problem is how they find out.

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        1. doreen*

          That’s kind of what I meant by the problem being how they found out. The OP apparently sets up the out-of- office email and it’s fine for co-workers to find out that way. It’s fine for co-workers to find out by noticing the computer is not on and assuming the OP is not in. Presumably it would be fine if the coworkers found out because the OP’s coat wasn’t hanging next to the desk and they assumed the OP wasn’t in. It’s apparently only not fine if the boss pre-emptively notifies the coworkers by sending an email before anyone starts looking for or emailing the OP.

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        2. Insert Clever Name Here*

          Yes, I believe that’s what doreen is getting at — it appears that it’s not the coworkers’ business OP is out (if people are notified en masse by OP’s manager), but it is the coworkers’ business OP is out (if they are notified in a one-off manner, such as the out-of-office email set up by OP or taking it upon themselves to notice if OP’s computer is on).

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      2. Observer*

        It’s apparently not a problem if people know, the only problem is how they find out.

        Yeah. That’s such an odd take. Like they seem to think that only people who prove their need to know are allowed to know that they are out. Which is not the way this stuff works.

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      3. Apples and Oranges*

        I agree that the emails are completely normal but it sounds like the issue is I that she feels it calls too much attention to her absence in a culture that is weirdly petty about time off. Presumably without the email, only people who sought her out for some specific task would find out instead of the full team.

        Reply ↓
    8. Lady Danbury*

      When I first started reading, I expected that the emails were sharing why ppl are ooo, which can be an issue, especially if it includes health information. But saying someone isn’t in is completely normal and useful to everyone else who is in.

      Reply ↓
    9. Nola*

      Earlier this year, a group of staff went to our new office manager and requested she started sending out “Jane will be on PTO today” emails again. Our old office manager used to send them but they fell to the wayside when she was out a lot for cancer treatment and our interim manager just never got in the habit. Once our new manager got settled in we requested she start sending them again. They’re so helpful! Especially since you don’t know if someone is not in the office because they’re out sick (and shouldn’t be disturbed) or just working from home while waiting for a plumber. On Teams, is someone unavailable because they’re in a meeting and you can circle back in an hour? Or are they taking a mental health day and won’t be reachable until tomorrow? Out of office messages get set up for preplanned days off but not everyone has the energy or access to set up an OOO if they’re home with a migraine or stomach bug.

      These kinds of messages are so normal and useful in most offices.

      Reply ↓
    10. Worldwalker*

      You and me and everyone.

      Whether or not you’re at work is not something that should be a deep, dark secret to your co-workers.

      And no guessing games. Nobody should have to go look at whether your computer is tuned on to guess if you’re in. (And what if you’re out, but someone from IT turned the computer on to do an update, or you’re in, but at lunch, and there was a power glitch?)

      This one’s just weird.

      Reply ↓
      1. acek*

        How can you read LWs letter honestly and think that she feels that whether she is at work should be a deep dark secret? She even mentions setting up out of office replies, so it is so obvious that it is not a secret. There’s a difference between something being a “deep dark secret” and not wanting something to be shouted from the rooftops. I get that it may feel really great to exaggerate for extra effect, but we’re not in a bad stand up comedy session here, if you need to exaggerate what LW says in the most negative way possible to prove a point then you could choose to not say anything.

        Reply ↓
        1. RussianInTexas*

          A manager telling the rest of the team someone is out is not “shouting from the rooftops”. It’s a normal work information, completely work appropriate.
          In fact, in my company, most people actually notify the whole team and few people outside of it before they take time off, because there is a lot of coverage needed, and a lot of same day needed answers.

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          1. Zelda*

            But it is proactive rather than reactive. People who might not have needed anything from Jane, emailed Jane, or gone to ask Jane a question are nevertheless having their attention actively drawn to the fact that Jane is out. If Jane is painfully insecure for one reason or another, I can see how that could feel like being put on center stage and balefully stared at.

            That said, the insecurity (or any legit sources of insecurity, like a meddling coworker misusing the information) is what needs to be worked on here, not the dissemination of normal work information. But I do kind of feel like we’re piling on the LW here; just because it’s an old letter doesn’t mean we shouldn’t still be kind.

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        2. Kat*

          You criticize someone for exaggerating with the phrase “deep dark secret” and then describe an email as “shouted from the rooftops”? Really?

          Reply ↓
    11. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I’m wondering if there’s a deeper issue, like people who aren’t really part of the immediate team getting the email. When people are out of office in my company, an email goes to a distribution list which contains 40 different people. All 40 people don’t need to know my status, I don’t actually have any work with 20 of them and even of the 20 I do work with, most of them don’t work with me on a regularly needed basis. I also don’t want to come back to 40 different people asking me about if I’m feeling better if I was out for personal needs.

      Reply ↓
      1. Worldwalker*

        If the email doesn’t say you were out sick, just that you’re out, you could be taking PTO to go to a concert, or to go to your nibling’s dance recital, or to wait for the plumber.

        Reply ↓
      2. Kat*

        I could sort of understand that, but the LW actually seems to think that it should be going to more people than just her immediate team:

        And I also think that if an email has to be sent out, then it should be for everyone, not just a certain department, or a certain “level” of employee.

        So the email shouldn’t be going out at all, but if it does, it needs to go to everyone, not just the involved parties, because of privacy concerns?

        I just…don’t understand.

        Reply ↓
        1. Texas Teacher*

          I think the LW means that everyone who is out gets an email sent on their behalf to the entire office.
          Sounds like entire office gets notified if she’s out, but the entire office doesn’t get notified when the manager is out, and that’s what she’d like to see changed.

          Reply ↓
      3. Guacamole Bob*

        Yeah, I feel like there must be something a little odd going on to get OP’s hackles up so much about this. If it’s going to a large group that includes people who don’t have emails sent around about them, I can see how it feels like it’s calling attention to some people’s absences weirdly.

        It’s absolutely normal to send this kind of info to a team of up to about 10-15 people, in my experience. Broader than that it seems a little weird unless it’s a specific kind of role (like a receptionist or office manager who supports an entire office, or a boss who will need to sign off on things), but not anything to get worked up over.

        Reply ↓
    12. acek*

      I am so surprised by these kinds of answers. Surely you know that not every company everywhere sends these emails when someone is sick? My former company did send them, to a way too broad team, and I hated it. I was never sick so it didn’t affect me, but I definitely felt that this paper trail of sickness was not a good thing to have. Sending an email to people you work with directly if you have the kind of job where others may need you, sure, but otherwise, I don’t see the point. And I’m currently working for a very large company where people are just expected to use Teams, which shows out of office messages, and people are expected to use Outlooks scheduler for meetings. I know that wasn’t as common when this question was asked, but that in 2024 people still feel that of course it is completely obvious that an OOO reply is not enough. I understand that in some kind of jobs this kind of team wide email may be necessary (but then it is of course even more necessary for managers), but I’m so surprised that people think that of course this is obviously necessary everywhere. In most companies, accountants would mostly have meetings with people not from the accounting team, so this email does not at all solve the problem of “someone may want to schedule a meeting with you and doesn’t want to use other ways of checking you are in”. I find it really strange to think that this is bizarre to be honest. And the fact that people are piling up on the LW shows that some people are indeed very judgemental about others, and that’s a good enough reason to not to want to have this paper trail of who is out when. Whether it’s worth it to push back on it is a separate question – answer is probably no, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a valid question.

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        people still feel that of course it is completely obvious that an OOO reply is not enough.

        Yes, it *is* completely obvious that a notification that someone is out is a perfectly normal and reasonable thing to do. No one is advocating telling everyone *why* people are out, and they are certainly not advocating for anyone else to be “tracking” people’s time. In fact, some people are commenting that it’s odd that the thing the LW is complaining about is the *reasonable* action, and treating the *real* problem (ie butinsky coworkers tracking people’s time) as a mere aside.

        Surely you know that not every company everywhere sends these emails when someone is sick?

        It sounds like you’ve worked in some fairly toxic companies – what the LW is saying is that people are being informed of who is out – not who is out *sick*. It’s extremely weird that you are responding as though the two are the same thing.

        I definitely felt that this paper trail of sickness was not a good thing to have.

        and

        that’s a good enough reason to not to want to have this paper trail of who is out when

        This seems to betray a fundamental misunderstanding of how companies and organizations in general operate. Any functional organization does actually maintain an audit trail of when people are in and out. Also, in functional companies random coworkers are *not* the ones maintaining that trail. Even when they get these emails of who is out on a given day.

        Reply ↓
      2. Local Garbage Committee*

        Genuinely no and based on the comments your workplace is probably an exception rather than the rule. Glad it works for you! (FWIW the places I’ve worked have only shared that someone is out, not why)

        Reply ↓
      3. Elsewise*

        I’m curious what you mean about the paper trail of sickness. Is the worry that you’ll get in trouble for being sick too often if there’s a record of emails? But wouldn’t the company know when you take PTO without needing an email record of it? Or if it’s an issue of the coworkers having a paper trail, what do you feel like they’re going to do with it?

        Reply ↓
      4. Spencer Hastings*

        Yes, this seems normal to me. At my company, we often get an email in the morning saying things like “Alice is not working today; Bob will be in around noon; Carrie is working from home today.” (This is specifically for unplanned stuff; if it’s planned, people will have put it on their calendars themselves in advance.)

        The email doesn’t say why they’re out. Sick? Their kid is sick? They were coming back from vacation and their flight was delayed? Not shared unless the person wants to.

        I work for a small company, though, so if you work for a company with thousands of employees, I’m guessing the procedure would be pretty different.

        Reply ↓
        1. Vincent t Adultman*

          My company is similar to Spencer’s. I’m in admin support so onsite coverage is a large part of the role. If I’m out of the office (whether it’s a planned event or an illness), I let people know: my boss, her direct assistant (especially since we are each other’s back ups), and the faculty who teach in my building
          It just seems very normal? I think my OOO message probably has a bit more info than most others at my org and I admit that is mostly due to “PTSD” from a previous job that was VERY obsessed with presenteeism, had no work-life balance, I was expected to both ALWAYS be at my desk available for someone but ALWAYS walking the building to sure it looked perfect, etc. My current place generally isn’t like that* but Toxic Jobs really do stay with you :-(

          *I try to do this in advance of regularly scheduled WFH days too so people (cough faculty cough) aren’t constantly walking up to my desk all “where is Vincent??? The bathrooms are out of TP!” And then being passive aggressive about it when I’m back in the office the next day**. (Instead, you can just email me about the bathroom and I’ll put in a work order through the online system. The same as if I were physically in the office, it’s not like I’m restocking the bathroom TP FFS ).

          **my faculty are great but this is par for the course with academia. There’s always that 1 or 2 professors who just gotta Be Like That.

          Reply ↓
          1. Vincent t Adultman*

            Ack, forgot to add that in my OOO message, I don’t even say if I’m out for illness or planned PTO! I just say I’m out! I may tell my boss, separately, when I emailed her, that I was sick, if that were the case (but with no detail).

            Reply ↓
    13. Arrietty*

      My interpretation is that LW has noticed that managers don’t get a mass email sent, has decided it’s a status symbol, and feels slighted at not being treated the same way as the “superiors”. Which is a really odd logic to follow, but it’s internally coherent.

      Reply ↓
  2. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

    “That’s really not something we need to address here.” – I think I have found the energy I need to bring into tiresome situations next year. Thanks Alison!

    Reply ↓
  3. WorkingClassLady*

    I’m also confused at how a simple “Jane is out of office today” – with no further information – constitutes a privacy violation. How exactly?

    It lets people know ahead of time that if they need something that they’d normally come to you for, they can do so and save time by not having to guess, search for you or wait for an auto reply to an email.

    Reply ↓
    1. Frodo*

      We get a daily email everyday that includes, among other things, who is out of the building. I understand this letter is from 10 years ago, but I’d be grateful that I don’t return to a bunch of unanswered emails.

      Reply ↓
    2. Mentally Spicy*

      As a photographer, I may just add a slight note of caution for this advice. (I know the letter is old but I’ll throw this out in case anyone else is in the same situation). Photographers will set up their lighting and backdrop for a specific style of photo. If they know that everyone will be photographed to favour their left side then they will light for that. Turning up and asking to be photographed from the other side may mean the photographer has a lot of changes to make to their setup.

      If I was in that situation probably what I would do is get the letter writer to come back at the end when everyone else has been photographed, so I can set up specifically for them. In an ideal world I would have had a heads up beforehand that that was needed and I could plan for it

      All that is just to say for anyone else in the same situation it may not be as simple as just turning up on the day and asking. A conversation with the person organising the shoot ahead of time would be better.

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  5. Kisa*

    Photo: Photographists generally want to make you look and feel comfortable. (Therapeutic and “brace your inner beauty” type of work aside.) So I would not expect too much pushback.

    I was once in a sitaution where i had to have professional picture taken and i had rope marks around my neck. (i had just run on a drying rope at my MILs garden playing with my son…) i was kinldy enaugh allowed to have a scarf and the picture was taken from a slightly different ancle.

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  6. WoodswomanWrites*

    For #1, oh how I’d like an update on this one. I’m a professional writer and editor, and these people weaponizing grammar would drive me absolutely insane and make me reconsider my commitment to nonviolence.

    An update on this one would make my day, my week, my year. If only I could remember these types of posts when Alison invites requests for updates.

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    1. allathian*

      Yes, this.

      These people are obnoxious, and I’m speaking as a reformed “grammar Nazi.” Literally, as I carried that badge with pride for years.

      I’m a translator, and the way my brain works is that I can’t not see grammar and spelling errors. But I can certainly choose whether or not I comment on them, and I no longer do that unless someone specifically asks me to, or unless it’s my job to do so. I’m a translator, and sometimes I get the chance to comment on the original text as well. My input is generally accepted because I don’t give it lightly, nobody reads a text as carefully as a translator does, because we have to convert the meaning of the text from one language to another. It’s no fun trying to disentangle a mess of clauses in a long sentence only to realize that the sentence is pure nonsense. AI is often accused of producing semantically null text, but humans are perfectly capable of doing the same thing. That’s when my brain throws out a “Syntax Error!” message.

      But when it’s informal, I don’t say anything, as I’m well aware that my grammar, or rather sentence structure, is far from perfect when I write.

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      1. WS*

        I can’t help but see them! I have one co-worker who constantly uses “through” instead of “throw”, so I constantly see things marked “DO NOT THROUGH OUT!!!” But it’s not customer-facing, so I keep my mouth shut because it doesn’t matter. I will vent here, though!

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        1. English Teacher*

          I admire your forbearance! But at least that would be correcting WRITTEN grammar.

          These people are correcting SPOKEN English? Have they never heard of colloquialisms?! Yeah I usually refrain from recommending pettiness here, but they are just asking for a condescending little laugh and a cold shoulder. Or I would have a lecture on descriptivism vs. prescriptivism readily prepared for them.

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          1. OrangeCup*

            I had a terrible boss who would do that to me – think how people from different regions of the US pronounce radiator: RAD-iator vs. RAY-diator. And she would not stop. So of course I had to double down and say the word more than usual (I was only saying it a lot in talking about how I was renovating my condo) just to prove she couldn’t stop me from saying it the correct way for the region we were living in (and I was raised in). Anyway she’s dead now so I won.

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              1. OrangeCup*

                It’s a tradition in my family – LOL! If you’re feuding with someone and they die you automatically win the feud. Same with land feuds – if they leave the country first you win.

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            2. Phil Leo*

              How ever you pronounce it, it’s a great way to heat up a grilled cheese sandwich if you’re not able to find some good Manicotti

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          2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            These people are correcting SPOKEN English? Have they never heard of colloquialisms?!

            Not just that, but English is a classic dual-register language (Latin is another well-known example; cf “proper” classical Latin, well-preserved in inscriptions and prose vs “popular” “vulgar” Latin, spoken everyday by even the patrician class and the foundation of the Romance creoles). I’d even argue English has become a tri-register language; a distinct “intimate” register, replete with pseudo-words (e.g. ain’t), slang, jargon, and relaxed rules; a “standard” register that’s semi-rigid, blander, more neutral, and more formal for use with power imbalances or people one doesn’t know well, if at all; and a stuffy, formal, slow-evolving-bordering-on-static written register, with more rules than can be implemented on the fly (so requiring editing and revision to perfect).

            So when your coworker that you’ve known for 10 years commiserates “Ain’t no crime to need the manuals for those TPS reports that only come once per year; I need ’em, too,” that is perfectly proper for its circumstance, linguistic register, and space.

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            1. Flor*

              Oh, I’d never heard of dual-register languages before – that’s cool!

              The other thing I’d add with English is that there’s a lot of policing of non-standard English dialects that is frequently rooted in classism and/or racism, with the underlying assumption that someone is breaking the rules because they don’t know them, when they’re actually following *different* dialectal rules.

              Things like the habitual be, using “amn’t” instead of “aren’t” for the first person interrogative form of “to be”, etc., are correct in certain dialects of English, but are not found in the prestige forms and therefore could be considered incorrect to listeners not familiar with those dialects.

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              1. Observer*

                The other thing I’d add with English is that there’s a lot of policing of non-standard English dialects that is frequently rooted in classism and/or racism,

                This is true. But the behavior being described is obnoxious and disruptive even without that nonsense.

                However, I’m hoping that someone looked at the behavior to see if this was an issue at play. It’s an old letter, so it’s late in the game, and this is speculation of course. But it didn’t sound like they were bigoted jerks as much as power tripping jerks.

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                1. Flor*

                  Oh, yeah, I absolutely agree they’re being jerks regardless! When I said it’s rooted in classism and racism, I meant it on a more literal level, not about the people doing it in this instance, but in how some grammar rules evolve and what’s considered correct.

                  “Ain’t”, for instance, was once widely used across all classes and backgrounds. But in the 18th and 19th centuries, prescriptivists decided it was bad. It’s now primarily used by working class speakers and is often viewed as indicative of a low education.

                  So essentially I think their obnoxious behaviour is likely to be upholding prejudiced structures because they’re egotistical jerks who haven’t given it enough critical thought to realise that’s what they’re doing.

            2. Retired lawyer*

              Not to mention that language is constantly in flux because, you know, people use it. Usages and phrases can move from one register to another over time, or even depending upon context. As one example, growing up, I was taught you shouldn’t use the passive voice, while I’ve encountered industries where almost all of the writers use the passive voice exclusively in their formal writing.

              As for the co-workers, it’s one thing to set a goal of avoiding grammar mistakes and work together with people towards it. But, to me, that’s not what the co-workers are actually doing. Instead, they are using “grammar” (which I put in parentheses because they seem to be wrong often) as a means to elevate themselves by putting others down. The goal is to insult, get attention or whatever. Not to actually help people write or speak “better,” whatever that means. Ignoring them is probably the best approach.

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            3. allathian*

              Finnish is also a classic example of a dual-register language, we really don’t talk the way we write. Paradoxically Finnish spelling is comparatively easy to learn because there’s only one way to spell any phoneme, regardless of where it’s located in a word.

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          3. Great Frogs of Literature*

            It would only need the second or third time an important meeting got hung up on some nitpicky question of unnecessary semantics before they got a very frosty “Don’t police the way I talk” from me. And after that, probably a “I said STOP” along with a complaint to their manager about how they were causing additional friction for projects on tight deadlines.

            Are there occasional things that I mess up grammar or pronounce incorrectly without realizing it? Yes. But I have the education and word-nerdiness to mostly know what’s “correct.” If I’m deviating from it, it’s for dialectical or rhetorical reasons, and I don’t need to get into an argument about my stylistic choices, thank you.

            (In fact, when I’m editing, I do a couple different categories of comments: “This is an error,” “This isn’t incorrect but it could be clearer,” and “This isn’t incorrect and/or is sometimes contextually appropriate, but it’s not the way I would do it.”)

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            1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

              that’s the thing, if you read the letter no one has told them to stop. They’ve danced around it without explicitly saying do not correct my grammar.

              Now there is a professional way to say it, of course, but it needs to be said explicitly – do not do this.

              Then if they keep doing it continue repeating I said do not, its odd that you keep doing it.

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          4. Rex Libris*

            They are welcome to quote my former linguistics professor. “Correct language is whatever allows one to be effectively understood.”

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          5. DJ Abbott*

            They don’t actually care about what’s correct. They want to abuse and are using grammar to do it. If it wasn’t grammar, they would find some other way to abuse.

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          6. Weaponized Pumpkin*

            My grandmother, a former teacher of English among other things, was notorious for correcting everything we said. She would even take notes on the pastor’s sermons and hand him a list of errors he made. Charming woman.

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    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      You’re right about the updates but I’ve started a note in my notes app where I add the URLs so I can dump them into the update calls when they come up!

      You’re also right that “the logic […] that if you understand what I am saying there is no need for correction” should be the end of it.

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    3. Crencestre*

      Next time the grammar police start getting obnoxious, remind them that the man who wrote “I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more” won the Nobel Prize for literature!

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    5. CJ*

      I teach college writing, and gods’ truth, if someone did this to me in a meeting where I wasn’t asking for peer feedback, I would stop, stare at them, and then repeat exactly what I said with the same grammar “mistake”, solely because “petty” is a life choice we can all enjoy.

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    6. Festively Dressed Earl*

      The way these people are doubling down on grammar nitpicks, including incorrect ones, makes me think there’s something else going on. I’m a grammar pedant, but I recognize that constantly needing to correct others’ grammar or spelling is a sign that I’m irritated with that person or I’m feeling powerless. Unless the mistake makes the meaning ambiguous or could embarrass someone, I don’t point it out. If I do, that’s a neon sign flashing “BEC! BEC!”

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      1. New Jack Karyn*

        Oh, yeah, there’s clearly something else going on. With those two coworkers, or with the office in general. Sounds like people don’t feel like they have any power or voice, and that feeling is leaking out in bad ways.

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  7. Seal*

    #3: It’s far better for your manager to let your colleagues know that you’ll be out for the day than not. If nothing else, it lets everyone know your boss is in the loop; you don’t want to be known as the coworker who doesn’t show up and never calls in.

    Ideally this should apply to the managers as well; at the very least, they need to let their staff know and keep their calendars up-to-date because people WILL ask. At my previous job, our director was out of the country for a week. His calendar was always set to private and the only person he told was his assistant and she didn’t think anyone else needed to know. At the time, I was the assistant director whose contract specified that I was in charge in the director’s absence. The first day he was out I had a lot of meetings and assumed he did too; you can imagine my surprise when I found out he was on vacation. He didn’t bother to cancel or reschedule his meetings that week, and blew off a few hard deadlines as well. I met with a lot of cranky people that week.

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      1. Seal*

        As I recall, he didn’t really say anything when he got back, which really wasn’t a surprise. Then again, this episode was just the tip of the iceberg. While he could be funny and charming to outsiders, as far as the staff was concerned he was a petty tyrant and a misogynist to boot. He screamed at people in public, did end runs around me and the other managers, played favorites, claimed to be improving communication while withholding information, and regularly overreacted to minor problems while ignoring or dismissing serious issues and concerns. His particular targets were competent middle-aged women, especially if they were managers.

        My job should have been great and on paper had endless opportunities, but was mostly miserable thanks to this guy. I was just starting to job hunt when he announced he was leaving; naturally, he failed upwards. Figures.

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    2. Bast*

      I worked for a small company where the owner pulled such shenanigans. The issue with him is that he made it so that he, and only he, could do certain tasks, creating a huge backlog, and he’d also make promises to clients that would then backfire on staff. “Tell her I am on vacation until next Monday and to call back then.” Then he’d decide to take an extra few days and whoever he spoke to was PO’ed and insisted we were lying that he was still out. He’d then turn around and state there must have been a “miscommunication” and throw staff under the bus. Oftentimes, we’d have no clue he had taken extra days, or just how many extra days it would be. I do not miss it there.

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  9. Elf*

    There was a (satisfying) update in the comments for LW1. I’ll post the link below, but in the meantime they commented with the username Arya.

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    2. Further update required*

      Thanks for posting this.
      Unfortunately this is only an immediate update. I would habe loved to see an update after 6 or 12 months and if the behaviour died down. This is difficult enough to address with only one person, but even more with two and it really makes me wonder about the work environment under this manager.

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  10. Happyhyena*

    #1 I would be pettily tempted to be as grammatically incorrect as possible in response to the nitpicking.
    So next time they insert an unwelcome correction “irregardless of a error everyone could imply what I meant, so I could care less :)”

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  11. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    1. Oh the evil part of me wants to send grammatical nitpickers like those over to our Glasgow office just to hear the resulting fallout. Hook it up to a couple of turbines and we could feed the national grid.

    Or if done to me I’d ramp up my Wiltshire accent and go nuts. Who needs anything other than vowel sounds anyway..

    But the professional reaction would be to say a few times ‘wow, that’s rude’ and then ignore it. Not quite as satisfying.

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    1. Bananapants Circus with Dysfunctional Monkeys*

      Let me weaponise my Yorkshire accent and dialect! Add in friends parents who’s top tier term of endearment is “cock” or “cocker” too.

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  12. Richard Hershberger*

    “We have even found that sometimes they’re actually wrong on how they corrected us.”

    Of course they are. I would be astonished were they not. People who do this are not operating from a deep and nuanced understanding and love of English grammar. They have picked up a few items they can latch onto without knowing or caring about details such as “Is this true?” That is at best. From there we go down the slope of bullying down to outright bigotry against speakers of non-standard dialects.

    “When we confront them with this, they get extremely defensive, and more or less call all of us stupid for trying to look up something we clearly can’t understand.”

    Send them to me. I am strictly an amateur in linguistics, but I read syntax books for fun. I can baffle them with technical vocabulary and haul out a doorstop of a grammar book to back it up.

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    1. Richard Hershberger*

      To add: “call all of us stupid for trying to look up something we clearly can’t understand” is a classic Internet Idiot fallback, and a sure sign that they are unserious people. It is certainly possible to misinterpret a reference work. The non-idiot will point out where the error came in. Bluster and abuse is the refuge of the inept.

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    2. allathian*

      They’re also frequently relying on outdated advice. In current usage, it’s perfectly acceptable to start a sentence with a conjunction or a preposition, for example. Maybe not in very formal writing, but most of us aren’t writing presidential speeches, etc.

      Probably a third of all the sentences I’ve written here start with “and” or “but” ….

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      1. Richard Hershberger*

        Going from memory, I believe the bit about beginning a sentence with a preposition comes from Strunk and White. It was bad advice even at the time. This is typical. Most of this sort of bad advice is not something that was good advice at one time, but the language has since changed. Rather, it is the personal idiosyncrasy of someone who managed to popularize it.

        Sometimes we can pinpoint the exact source. The bogus rule against ending a sentence with a preposition came from John Dryden, the 17th century poet. He had a flash one day, realizing that you can’t end a sentence with a preposition in Latin, and so it followed that the same is true in English. This absolutely was not an analysis of the best writers and the realization that they did not do this. Indeed, Dryden went back and edited his own earlier writings to conform to the rule. Dryden was an influential guy, so the rule entered the canon. At the same time, ending a sentence with a preposition is so idiomatic in English that everyone does it when not self-consciously self-editing. This gives, to their great delight, self-appointed grammar police ample opportunity to miscorrect others.

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        1. Falling Diphthong*

          “Popularize my personal idiosyncrasy as the only correct option” feels like a life goal for the 21st century.

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          2. PhyllisB*

            When my children were in school I taught them this rule by telling them this joke: A man approached someone and asked: “Can you tell me where Buckingham Palace is at?” The person sneered at them and in a frosty tone of voice said, “one never ends a sentence with a preposition!!” The man apologized and said, “please pardon me, you are absolutely correct. Can tell me where Buckingham Palace is at, a—hole?” My kids loved this because I don’t normally swear, but they learned that rule!!

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            1. PhyllisB*

              Since we’re discussing grammar rules ( or correct writing anyway) I think I just broke one. Is a statement in quotes always supposed to be capitalized even if it’s in the middle of a sentence? I don’t do any writing anymore except commenting in this forum so I occasionally forget my learnin’.

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              1. Flor*

                Caveat that I speak British English and I know the rules for punctuation and quotations differ in US English, but yes, if you’re quoting a whole sentence, you capitalise the sentence. If you’re just quoting part of a sentence, you don’t capitalise it. So it’s the differerence between:

                The child frowned at her melting ice cream and said, “It’s dripping on me.”

                and:

                The realtor said the floors were “original, well-maintained hardwood”, but they’re clearly cheap laminate.

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            2. Nightengale*

              I learned that one as Harvard. Someone asks “where’s the auditorium at” and the response is “At Haavahd, we do not end our sentences with a preposition”

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        4. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          It was bad advice even at the time.

          Just like split-infinitives, nonsense from the very beginning. Technically, “to boldly go” should be “to go boldly”; but the rule itself only made sense in its source (Latin, again, where of course you couldn’t split an infinitive; where English uses a phrase for a concept (e.g. “to be”), Latin uses a single word (esse); of course you can’t insert an adjective in the middle of a word! But the English construction is more flexible and handles the insertion with ease), so “to boldly go” is actually as sound as it is iconic.

          Here’s your soapbox back; thank you for lending it to me!

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          1. Nightengale*

            of course you can insert an adjective into the middle of a word

            abso-bloomin’-lutely you can

            I think it’s called an infix. . .

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        5. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          It was bad advice even at the time.

          Just like split-infinitives, nonsense from the very beginning. Technically, “to boldly go” would be “to go boldly”; but the rule itself only made sense in its source (Latin, again, where of course you couldn’t split an infinitive; where English uses a phrase for a concept (e.g. “to be”), Latin uses a single word (esse), so one can’t insert an adjective in the middle of a word! But the English construction is more flexible and handles the insertion with ease), so “to boldly go” is actually as sound as it is iconic.

          I seem to have mangled my blockquotes, so in the interest of being legible…

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          1. Richard Hershberger*

            Even this gives it too much credit. Saying that “technically” the phrase would be “to go boldly” suggests that the rule is real, but widely ignored, like coming to a complete stop at an intersection. No, the rule is and always has been bogus: not in fact a rule of English.

            If you want to get technical, the rule is not merely wrong, but nonsensical. “To go” is not the infinitive. That is simply “go.” Many infinitive constructions in English require the infinitive be marked with that “to,” but not all. The verb following a modal auxiliary is an infinitive with no sign of that marker: “I will go.” And yes, you can find people who object to “I will boldly go.” These people are unserious.

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            1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

              Fully agree! The italics were because I was already using double-quotes and couldn’t use them as air-quotes.

              I wish I could go back and tell them “we already have a perfectly good Latin. English doesn’t need any latinitas, let alone more of it.”

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        6. DJ Abbott*

          “Rather, it is the personal idiosyncrasy of someone who managed to popularize it.”

          So what it comes down to is arrogance. The person thought his personal preferences should be a rule for everyone, and pushed it onto the entire culture.

          I’ve always hated the attitude of being grammatically correct for its own sake. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it used constructively, only to judge and bully and feel superior. Language is a tool for understanding. The goal should be to communicate in ways others understand, full stop

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          1. Rex Libris*

            “So what it comes down to is arrogance. The person thought his personal preferences should be a rule for everyone, and pushed it onto the entire culture.”

            It isn’t just grammar. You’ve pretty much just described the current American zeitgeist.

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            1. DJ Abbott*

              You’re right! One of the things I noticed growing up in southeast Kansas was that every white man thought he was a king and his opinion should be law. It’s ridiculous.
              I GTF out of there when I was 22 and have lived in a big city ever since. :)

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        7. sulky-anne*

          Good to know that I have another thing to be annoyed with Dryden about, along with having to read a semester’s worth of the most tedious poetry ever written.

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      1. Cookie Monster*

        I don’t know about This One Here, but my face is very, very asymmetrical. So if I had the option, I’d definitely want to be photographed from the better side.

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        1. allathian*

          So’s mine, to the point that I sometimes don’t recognize myself in photos. I also hate looking at myself on recorded video, although I don’t object to being on camera in meetings because I’m mainly focused on looking at other people and when I glance at my own picture, it’s my mirror image.

          Oddly enough, I don’t have a preference for either side of my face. If anything, I prefer photos of myself facing the camera, angled slightly downwards if possible. That angle makes my bulbous nose less prominent and hides some of my double chin, and it also emphasizes my prominent cheekbones, my best facial feature.

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  14. Name (Required)*

    LW1, any grammarian worth their salt knows that conversational and formal language are two different ways of communicating, that language is a living and malleable entity, and that weaponizing usage is both ableist and classist.

    These office bullies are performatively larping as intellectuals by grasping at the low-hanging fruit they’re throwing around, and their insecurity is showing. Reading the room is so much more important than trying to assert one’s illusory superiority, and I think the advice for LW4–lobbing back a well-executed “That’s really not something we need to address here”—is mighty applicable in your situation, too.

    Source: nearly two decades of being a professional word-nerd who was a pretentious jerk once, too, and hopes your colleagues similarly saw the light.

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    1. Not Australian*

      Thank you, Name (Required), I’m adding ‘performatively larping as intellectuals’ to my vocabulary for the New Year. Signed, a fellow former professional word-nerd…

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  15. Apex Mountain*

    For #4, I’m hardly an expert but I’d guess with digital photography these days I’m sure you could either do as AAM said and flip the image, or edit out the scar, etc.

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  16. I should really pick a name*

    They would say that everyone is too “sensitive” and “can’t pull up their big boy/girl pants so they had to go to management.”

    Does their manager know this? I’d want to know if my employee did something like this.

    Reply ↓
    1. Porcupine*

      I learned from Captain Awkward to lean into those playground insults. “Yes, I am sensitive about that! Thank you for noticing, and please stop doing it.”
      When someone is just being a jerk and acting in bad faith, it throws them off track wonderfully.

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    2. NotAnotherManager!*

      Yes, yes, yes. We will not be speaking to our coworkers that way on ANY topic, but particularly grammar pedantry. I would be horrified if anyone on my team was behaving that way.

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  17. Czhorat*

    The grammar one makes me angry for multiple reasons.

    First, nitpicking grammar is an incredibly rude and unproductive kind of interaction. It is of no benefit to anyone and is a form of intellectual bullying; these buffoons are essentially saying that they think themselves smarter than everyone else.

    Second, the schoolyard framing of bringing issues of egregious behavior to management is a pet peeve of mine. It’s the manager’s job to handle things like this, and telling them isn’t “tattling”. If you want to be treated like a grown-up in the office then ACT like one.

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    1. NotAnotherManager!*

      I agree with this so much. It reeks of insecurity, too – they have to “prove” they’re right on something so inconsequential? Weird.

      My other question is what is the business purpose of this nitpicking? It’s not on work product (if it even matters there), it’s not building good relationships with coworkers, and it’s likely making it more difficult to get things done given how antagonistic they’re being.

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    2. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Agreed and it’s also obnoxiously elitist to me. The quality of grammar education in US schools varies greatly and there are many people who are learning English as a second language. Also, they may be correcting people with unseen reading and writing difficulties.

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    3. JMC*

      Personally I run into horrible spellings and grammar from people I work with and it drives me crazy. We are educated adults, we took English in school, why does no one know how to use it correctly? Or spell things correctly? If I see my own manager spell lose as loose one more time I swear I will scream. What did we take English for if it isn’t going to be used correctly, even conversationally?

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      2. Texan In Exile*

        “What did we take English for if it isn’t going to be used correctly, even conversationally?”

        I know, right? If we can’t use language as a way to classify whether someone is a worthwhile human being, then what’s the point?

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      3. Off Plumb*

        I mean, most people took English because it was required, and as with all other subjects people vary in aptitude and retention.

        Clear communication requires a baseline level of shared rules, but “clear” is not the same as “skillful” or “sophisticated.” Some tasks and roles require a strong command of grammar and spelling; many do not.

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      4. Czhorat*

        Yeah, I’ll loose it if someone uses the wrong word as well.

        Conversational English is about flow, meaning, and tone; it doesn’t really matter how closely one hews to the technical rules of grammar.

        Professional writing is a different ball of fish; it will also sometimes “break” grammar rules in different ways than conversational language. For example, passive voice will be heavily used in technical documents but not in other forms of communucation.

        Finaly, as others here have said there *is* drift. Literally literally no longer means “literally”; it’s been used as an intensifier often enough to have taken that as its meaning. This means that if someone says “I literally starved to death” and you “well — actually” them to point at that they are, in fact, alive (I’m assuming for the sake of argument that you aren’t communing with their ghost) then you’re not only being pedantic but also wrong.

        Just let it go; we have people who are cruel. Who are racist, misogynistic, or otherwise bigoted. Heck, I know people who are *Yankees fans*. Let’s save our ire for them and not pick at grammar.

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        3. cue*

          It *does* matter “how closely one hews…”

          English is packed with euphamisms, which is ablist. Also, you’re incorrect about the term “literally”; it is meant for the literal. Conversely, when someone is hungry and declares having nearly starved to death, the figurative meaning applies.

          Those co-workers are jerks, but let’s not pretend the proper – not conversational, but proper – use of language is getting the respect it should.

          Reply ↓
      5. NotAnotherManager!*

        I mean, I took math for 14 years of school, and I’m not great at it. You don’t want me to differentiate any equations or attempt to prove any sort of geometry. And let’s not even get into the eight years of a foreign language I can no longer speak fluently. Letting me mix chemicals would also be a bad idea, despite three years of chemistry class.

        My question is whether or not people can understand your coworkers and if their spelling/grammar matters for the work that they do. (I work with highly-educated people who write for a living, and, even with those higher standards, they make mistakes and have grammar tics that bother me in my own head but have zero impact on their effectiveness or being understood.) The manager that can’t differentiate lose/loose – they have other skills, no?

        I had good grammar and enunciation drilled into me from a young age – mostly because I have one of those accents for which many people tend to deduct IQ points automatically – but whatever conditioned correction can go on in my head does not have to come out of my mouth. What is the value to correcting other people on this?

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      6. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

        Correct spelling in English means having a memory for a lot of sometimes arbitrary patterns, like when to use which spelling for homonyms like too, two, and to.

        This happens to be something I’m good at, so I can tell that it’s not a sign of either greater intelligence or more study. I will absolutely correct my own spelling, because getting it right can make things easier for the person reading it. I let my nit-picky self loose to fix spelling errors and typos while reading Wikipedia articles, which doesn’t bother anyone else.

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      7. cue*

        Bingo, JMC.

        I don’t at all agree with the way the two co-workers are going about things, but you make important points.

        Imagine if math were similarly dismissed. “Do we need 10 or 1000 pounds of concrete to make this deck safely hold people? Oh, well, who cares if we’re off, it’s just a couple zeroes!”

        Reply ↓
        1. Texan In Exile*

          But math is different. There is a difference between 10 and 1000.

          There is not a difference – other than external, arbitrary rules – between “am not” and “ain’t.” The meaning is still clear.

          And even “lose” vs “loose” – yes, it takes a second longer to figure it out, but the meaning is clear from the context.

          The purpose of language is to communicate. If you understand what the speaker/writer is trying to communicate, then in most cases, that should be fine.

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        3. Off Plumb*

          If I’m describing my personal home improvement project to a coworker, it doesn’t matter if I fumble some numbers.

          If someone is in a job and performing a task in which formal grammar and correct spelling are required, then yes, they should be expected to meet those standards (while performing those specific tasks.) But there are a lot of situations in which information must be conveyed but the polish is irrelevant.

          It’s pretty easy to have a job in which math is rarely if ever used. There are very few jobs in which speaking or writing rarely if ever comes up, but in most cases it’s not necessary to speak and write *well* (by whatever metric you use.) Which is good, because human brains are beautifully varied and not all of them have an easy time with English spelling and grammar. It would be a shame to discount their other strengths. Fortunately, we don’t need to! They can go on sending casual emails with errors, and those whose brains notice those errors can let them pass by and focus on the actual tasks that need doing.

          Reply ↓
          1. Nightengale*

            also

            I use math as a doctor, generally arithmetic. Generally arithmetic I learned in elementary and middle school. I calculate medication dosages and how many pills to put in a bottle for a 30 day supply if someone takes 1.5 tabs in the AM and noon and 1 tab at 4 PM. I use percentiles in looking at growth.

            I do not use the calculus I was required to take as a pre-requisite for medical school. (I have never used calculus. I have used trigonometry once, when building scenery in high school.) So even jobs which require “math” don’t usually require all the higher level math many of us were required to take. Some do, of course, and are usually chosen by the people who like and excel at these forms of math.

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        4. Observer*

          “Do we need 10 or 1000 pounds of concrete to make this deck safely hold people? Oh, well, who cares if we’re off, it’s just a couple zeroes!”

          That is not an appropriate comparison. Sometimes precision of language is important. In those cases, people should be as “nit picky” and they need to be. But there are cases, even when it comes to math, where exactitude is not actually crucial. What’s more, your example actually obscures the fact that even when it comes to math, context matters in how exact one needs to be. When dispensing some medications, single milligrams can matter. But when making calculations about how much cement you need, no one is worrying about single kilos, much less single grams, never mind milligrams.

          Pretending otherwise does not lead to better communications. The reverse is true, because fitness for purpose is important.

          Reply ↓
      8. Observer*

        What did we take English for if it isn’t going to be used correctly, even conversationally?

        To communicate? Possibly influence people, evoke emotions, create images?

        And that’s assuming that the grammar bullies are actually *correct*. We know that sometimes they are actually wrong. And what is “correct” also depends heavily on context – level of formality, oral vs written, purpose, audience, even dialect.

        I am someone who also finds the misuse of homophones grating. But if the worst thing your boss does is mix those two words up, you are very lucky. Even from a purely use of language perspective. I’ve seen much worse, including stuff that could really confuse people.

        Reply ↓
  19. Mockingjay*

    #2, I looked for an update. I wonder how it turned out.

    Somewhat similar, ExToxicJob (small company that was chronically understaffed and overwhelmed) got the brilliant idea to get unpaid interns to do a bunch of grunt work – filing, organizing office closets, etc. They approached the community college and were turned down flat because they couldn’t explain how this ‘work’ provided skills training and beneficial experience for the college’s students.

    Current company has a handful of interns in the IT department; one worked summers and holiday breaks throughout high school and college. He kept coming back because he was given real tasks and increasing responsibility. He took another job upon graduating, but he’s still in touch with us.

    Reply ↓
  20. Sneaky Squirrel*

    #3 – I have the opposite problem. I wish people would stop telling me about their PTO. Many of my colleagues use an all department distribution list to communicate their PTO needs, but I don’t have any work overlap with half the department, so I don’t need to know about their PTO. Then there are a few colleagues who put their PTO on my everyone’s calendar; some of the people who do that, I support as needed but have 0 need to track their PTO. Then I have people I’ve never even met sending me calendar invites for their PTO because they’re putting calendar invites of their PTO out to an email distribution list that I’m a member of for some reason. I’m not even fully sure that all of the PTO calendar invites I get are from people who work with my company – possibly external clients of some of our staff who were added to a distribution list for some reason or another.

    Reply ↓
    1. Edwina*

      Wow! That’s ridiculous. I can understand getting an email or IM to tell you someone is out of the office, but being “invited” to the PTO that they’re adding to their own calendar is very strange. I have enough stuff on my calendar. I don’t need to add other people’s crap.

      Reply ↓
      1. Texan In Exile*

        For my immediate team, we would invite each other to our PTO (without marking the time as “unavailable” in the invitation, except for Emma, whose invitation would block our calendars for her entire vacation – I told my boss not to hire her and he did not listen and months later, he told me I was correct – she was not capable of doing the job for which she had been hired) so the six of us would know about each other. It was useful for us.

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      2. Guacamole Bob*

        My manager requests that I send her invitations like this for my PTO so she knows when I’m out – just for her direct reports. I’d never do it unless requested but can see why it works for her!

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      3. Leenie*

        Everyone who reports to me sends whichever small team they work with and me calendar invitations for PTO. The rule is it needs to be an all day invitation with the time marked as free, so it just shows up as a line at the top of the calendar day. We’re a pretty casual environment in terms of start times and WFH days, so this helps avoid the 10 AM, “Huh, where is Matt today…?” moments. I suppose if anyone didn’t want even that line on their calendar, they could just decline the invitation. But I’ve found it helpful.

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  21. Half a Cupcake*

    I desperately want an update to the grammar police question!

    And I say this as the go-to person for grammar on my team. (I always tell folks I’m not the grammar police, but I am the grammar paramedic. I’ll come save you if you call me or I see there’s an emergency, but I have no interest driving around and looking for trouble.)

    Reply ↓
      1. Our Business Is Rejoicing*

        I’ve been a freelance/volunteer editor for most of my life, although that’s not my paying job. About ten or fifteen years ago, I was the go-to grammar/usage person on my department’s newsletter and someone called me the “grammar superhero.” I decided at that point that I would henceforth be known as The Hyphenator (because I was the only person who knew when and where to use hyphens, em-dashes, and en-dashes). And, of course, I only use my powers for good.

        Reply ↓
    3. Juicebox Hero*

      The LW did post in the comments of the original question as Arya. They made the mistake of pulling a Grammar Gotcha on a higher-up in the organization, and, shocked Pikachu face, the next day they’d stopped doing it :D Hopefully the higher-up shut them up for good.

      Reply ↓
      2. Richard Hershberger*

        That is brilliant! And a clear proof, were any needed, that this was about stupid dominance games all along.

        Reply ↓
      3. Czhorat*

        That they did this to someone above them in the org chart tells me that they are overestimating their own intelligence by even more than I’d assumed.

        Reply ↓
        1. New Jack Karyn*

          I think they did it to a colleague, while in the presence of the higher-up. Said higher-up called them out on it publicly!

          Reply ↓
    4. Texan In Exile*

      I love this! I was the grammar paramedic for my former boss, who fled Iran when he was 15 and earned an engineering degree a few years later in a new language. I would not correct his usage uninvited (indeed, I loved his sayings like “I have been on the rodeo before!”), but I would ask him if he wanted me to edit his presentations.

      Reply ↓
  22. Oversharing*

    We have a company calendar where people put their scheduled PTO (at larger companies I’ve seen this at the group/department level) but at most places I work bosses are expected to be fairly discrete and provide a minimal amount of info (no reasons except possibly a very generic out sick or dealing with a bereavement but even that varies) only on request. The idea behind both is that minimal info can be sought out if there’s a legit reason to need it.

    I would be annoyed on both ends – getting and being the subject of – if all time off was announced this way. For one thing, the reach out/request for info when I returned would be overwhelming, possibly emotionally as well as from a time perspective when I’m already behind because I’ve been out. Obviously it’s unavoidable for anything lengthy, but it’s still problematic. There’s a big difference between dealing with this from the 6-10 or whatever people you work closely with, quite another when it’s 40-50-100, some of whom you barely know.

    That said, as long as details about why I was out were not part of the message it would not be a privacy violation, just a bad thing to do.

    Reply ↓
  23. Cabbagepants*

    #1 the only solution is to drone at the correctors about linguistic descriptivism vs prescriptions. Really go on and on about it. That and correct their grammar. They must split the occasional infinitive, or dangle a participle. Grill them about their stance on Oxford commas (Chicago and MLA disagree here, so whatever they do, insist on the opposite).

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  24. Juicebox Hero*

    I’m a lifelong resident of NEPA coal country. The grammar police would have me using as many ungrammatical regionalisms as I could just to watch the veins in their necks bulge. The first time I referred to a green bell pepper as a mango they’d probably stroke out.

    “Anyhoo, my electric went out right before I hadda go upda U and pick up my nephew after class, so I called him up and sez yez maybe might wanna getta Uber cuz it’s gonna be couple-two-tree hours ‘fore I kin getta ‘lectrician out here cause he gotta come all da way down from da mou’en. Ya kin never get a service guy anymore when ya need one, heyna?”

    Reply ↓
    1. Observer*

      OK, so I think I understood most of this. But “Henya”? What’s that?

      And I’m really interested how green bell peppers got to be named mango.

      Language really is fascinating!

      Reply ↓
      1. Texan In Exile*

        I wonder if it’s like the Wisconsin “aina” or “ainahay,” as my dad used to say.

        “aina
        A “tag question” seeking affirmation of a statement along the lines of no? or right? A contraction of English ain’t and German ne, itself a shortened form of nicht, meaning not.”

        (from Milwaukee Magazine)

        Reply ↓
      2. Juicebox Hero*

        Texan in Exile is right about the usage: basically seeking agreement with what you just said. It also appears as “heyna or no?” when you say something no one could possibly disagree with. No one seems to have any clue as to its origin (this area is largely Eastern European ancestry whereas the Penn Dutch are in the southeast). There’s even a parody of the song “Jock-a-Mo” with the lyrics “Heyna, Heyna! Heyna, Heyna! What the hell does it mean?”

        Mango does have an actual origin story. When they first appeared in the US a couple hundred years ago they were only available pickled. In time, any pickled fruit (including bell peppers) came to be called a mango, and “mangoing” became synonymous with “pickling”.

        Reply ↓
    1. Texan In Exile*

      Are you my sibling in law? Because my husband’s father, who was a retired English professor, was a complete jerk about that sort of thing.

      He was not a kind person about anything, actually.

      Reply ↓
  26. Elsewise*

    Out of office emails:At past workplaces, I’ve always texted or emailed my boss to call out, and in some they’ve emailed the team, in others they’ve verbally announced it to anyone who needed to know, and occasionally they haven’t communicated it at all. I had one boss who set the expectation that *you* should be the one to email the team to let them know that you’re out.

    At my current organization, you send a message to the team chat, and that doubles as calling out and letting the team know. I’ve gone through several bosses here and I’ve asked each of them when I started with them if this is really what they want me to do, and they’ve all confirmed yes. People vary a lot in what they say, from “Joe’s sick today and Junior has a day off from school so I’m going to be on childcare duty all day” to “I’m out today, back tomorrow”. If it’s a planned absence you generally talk to your boss and then send a calendar invite (“Elsie OOO”) to the whole team.

    Reply ↓
  28. Vincent t Adultman*

    For letter 3: was there ever an update where it turned out they were an undercover agent and this blew their cover or something? Or they were in witness protection program??? Because otherwise WTF y’all.

    Reply ↓
  29. Mrs Webster*

    As someone who works with grammar, the people in LW1 are so, so obnoxious. Were you able to effectively communicate your idea, information, or request to the other person? Congrats, language did its proper job! Especially with spoken language, it’s not like we have a convenient backspace or verbal red pen to correct when we do something like split an infinitive (allowed in English; not allowed in Latin which is why grammar snobs say it’s wrong).

    Most grammar rules are classist anyway (see above about Latin and splitting infinitives in English). They’re meant to convey the same thing as a posh accent – I’m better than you. As an editor, my main rule when editing a piece is, “Whatever, just be consistent.”

    Reply ↓
  30. Aelswitha*

    “Overly self-conscious”?!?? Oh, sorry, family, please enlighten me. What’s the exact amount of self-conscious I should be feeling in this situation?

    Reply ↓
  31. MAW*

    for LW4, if for some reason people double down on the notion that everyone’s photos have to be facing the same direction, the photographer or website folks should be able to do a simple “mirror” effect edit on a photo of LW4’s “good” side. It’s a simple enough edit that even my basic phone editing software can do it (like for selfies, but where you want to be able to read any words in the photo)

    Reply ↓
  32. DJ*

    LW#1 another approach seeing it sounds like you can’t say “please don’t correct my grammar” are short responses. These could be with holding up your hand like a stop gesture and say “let me finish” “please don’t interupt” then keep talking ignoring the correction!

    Reply ↓
  33. DJ*

    LW#3 it’s completely normal to let staff know when someone is not going to be in. Staff may have factored in an informal meeting that day, a request and know that you won’t be able to make any already rescheduled meetings so they can either cancel or let other attendees know!

    Reply ↓

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