I feel exploited by my employees

by Alison Green on December 3, 2024

A reader writes:

I lead a manufacturing business that I co-founded over a decade ago. It turned its first profit recently, but all this time, we as the owners have taken care of everyone by taking colossal personal debt and making incredible sacrifices, including working ourselves an average of 60 hours a week.

We have always managed to pay our staff on time and to increase wages and benefits gradually even when the business was faring pretty badly, insulating them from our woes. We try to personally support employees and to make sure they feel secure, keep growing and that the culture stays safe, healthy, and dynamic.

We also make a deliberate effort to observe the unwritten rules of “bosshood.” We stayed silent when a disgruntled ex-employee was badmouthing us around town. We ignore the occasional unfair online review, take on the feedback, and hope that the other reviews will balance out the story. We settle final pay cheerfully and promptly for employees who have delivered no value we can detect. We bend over backwards to place star employees we cannot keep. In short, the company aims to keep the moral high ground, no matter what.

But frankly, I feel exhausted and exploited. I don’t expect kudos. But how about mere professionalism and reciprocal human decency?

It seems to me that the culture fails to acknowledge employees can be bullies who victimize employers. Who decided that the employee is always right? Don’t both sides have responsibility to be fair, sane, and cordial? Where does my responsibility as a “good” employer start and end? Please help me make sense of this.

I answer this question over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

You may also like:
{ 186 comments }

{ 186 comments… read them below }

  1. Chi*

    Spot on reply as always! “Pay the cost to be the boss.” These are things a business owner must do, and perhaps entrepreneurship isn’t for this person. It isn’t for everyone. I know I couldn’t do it.

  2. YesPhoebeWould*

    Exhausted and exploited by doing the minimum expected of an ethical employer?

    You want a trophy because you “We have always managed to pay our staff on time”? Stop whining. You do those things because you OWN THE COMPANY. Are you sharing the equity with the employees? Almost certainly not.

    This is what ownership entails. If you are going to keep the BENEFITS of ownership? Then stop whining like an entitled child about the RESPONSIBILITIES of ownership.

    1. T.N.H*

      Completely agree. I wonder if their industry doesn’t usually follow these practices and that’s why they don’t realize that all of these things are completely the norm.

      1. SnowyRose*

        Let’s be honest with ourselves, though. Anyone who has read even a handful of comments on this board knows that those basic things are almost always the first thing brought up. And there’s always at least one thread that applies every bad experience had elsewhere to the letter. I can see someone writing in trying to get out ahead of that by including it up front.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          I’d assume that if they followed up with a specific complaint about their employees because yes, if one posts about employees behaving poorly, there is often a comment or two about how the company has probably done something to deserve it. But I don’t really see any examples of poor employee behaviour here.

          It’s like the LW wrote the prelude to their question, making it clear that their company had not treated the employees in question badly and preempting some things they might be asked and then…skipped the question itself and went on to the summing up, with “why do some employees behave this way?”

          1. amoeba*

            Yeah, this. I mean, maybe that boss just does indeed have shitty employees – it happens! The employee is definitely not “always right”, as we’ve seen from a multitude of letters on this page! If it’s one of those situations, they have every right to feel bad about it! (Although, well, being the boss, that would also mean it’s on them to manage that – you have power here, so do something about it, whether that’s corrective action or managing them out)
            But, like… there’s zero way to judge that without any specific examples at all? What answer did they expect?

        2. bmorepm*

          if that content wasn’t their entire letter, I could see your point. I don’t see a single specific or actionable incident of the poor behavior described and the LW is giving themselves a LOT of credit for what are minimum standards.

    2. Priscilla Tells It Like It Is*

      It’s pretty uncharitable to hone in on “paying employees on time” and ignore the points like professional development, taking the high road, and trying to give people a good experience.

      Multiple things can be true at once. It is true that OP is doing their ethical responsibility. It is also obvious that OP is burnt out, and it is not pleasant to deal with people when they are rude.

      1. Lilo*

        I mean Alison rightly points out that’s really stuff you do for your own good too. But of LW starts viewing the employees as ungrateful or develops animosity it will ver likely impact the business negatively and make LW’S situation worse.

        1. Priscilla Tells It Like It Is*

          In a letter of thirty some lines, I think it is inaccurate to characterize the OP as wanting praise for paying employees on time from one line, which I read as listing a responsibility either way. The other activities suggest someone who cares about doing good by their authority.

          It’s true that they benefit from treating their employees well. It’s also likely that they still care about their employees as people, such as the folks who they help move onward and upwards. Alison’s answer is spot on.

          I have never been a boss, but no one is above abusing power. If people just want a reason to be mad, then sure: feel free to stylize LW a stock villain based off of one line. thats their prerogative. I find it more interesting and, likely, true to treat OP as a nuanced person and to reflect on how easy it is to take our own power for granted instead.

      2. ThatGirl*

        It’s just that “paying employees on time” is the bare minimum of a job. Some of the other stuff might not be as common but if someone is complaining (even lightly) about how their employees don’t appreciate that their paychecks were never late…

        1. ferrina*

          Yeah, an employer claiming that “I pay my workers on time!” is close to an employee saying “I usually show up to work!” Um, yeah. That’s the most basic tenant of the agreement you made.

        2. MsM*

          Yeah, I get that there may have been times when OP was genuinely worried whether they were going to be able to make that happen, but part of being the owner is making sure that stress doesn’t fall on the employees.

      3. MCMonkeybean*

        I don’t think it’s uncharitable at all. Thinking that kind of legally-mandated, absolute bare-minimum requirement of having employees is worth mentioning at all would be concerning already. The fact that they chose to not only list it first, but then bring it up again later is pretty telling.

        1. Starbuck*

          Right. It’s like saying “We allow them to drink water and take bathroom breaks on the clock! Why aren’t they grateful?” It’s concerning that you’d expect gratitude for that! Because not doing it isn’t an option.

      4. bye*

        Okay? Professional development, taking the high road, and trying to give people a good experience are also expected from good, decent business owners. LW is complaining about a few out of however many employees they have had – isn’t that uncharitable?

        Like Alison says in her reply, LW has the power in this relationship. That means they can weather a couple of bad reviews or frustrated former employees. Are your current staff fair and kind to you? Or are you missing that because you’re mad about Bob who got fired three months ago?

    3. Richard Hershberger*

      I have a hard time even understanding what is the complaint (apart from being burned out). Not every hire is a good one, and some of those will take poorly to being let go. From this banal observation to the owners being exploited is quite the leap. Alison recommends a vacation, with the caveat that this may not be possible. I note the plural “owners.” Take turns spending two weeks at the beach. It will do wonders.

      1. MassMatt*

        I wondered where the “exploited” part was going to come in, I gather they had to let people go (“We settle final pay cheerfully and promptly for employees who have delivered no value we can detect”). It’s hard finding good employees and anyone making more than a handful of hires is going to get a dud, but but maybe they need to look at their hiring process?

        And maybe it’s not the employees “exploiting” the employer, maybe this owner is doing more work than the other owners? 60 hours a week is a lot, but not unusual for business owners, especially for a new business.

        1. Richard*

          I kind of wonder if OP had one or two individual employees say something that got under their skin. The part about employees being bullies really feels like it’s referencing a specific situation and not a more general observation.

          When you’re burnt out, one moderately bad experience can sometimes trigger a wave of resentment about a million other smaller, tangentially related things that you’d been ignoring in survival mode. OP is seeking validation not because they really believe employers in general are unfairly maligned but because they are feeling a sense of loss, frustration, hurt, etc about how much running this business has cost them personally.

          A vacation is very much in order.

          2. Hell's Jingle Bells*

            I agree, there’s nothing in the letter that states what the employees have actually DONE to be bullies, aside from not giving the kudos that LW says they don’t actually want. Without more specifics it’s hard to say, but it does read as if they are burnt out and grasping at why, and coming up with “no one is grateful” because at the end of the day, you want someone to acknowledge how hard it is for you, but they’re not actually obligated to do that. It’s easy to feel like people are out to get you when they’re not following rules that only exist in your head. And it leads to perfectly normal conflict, like occasionally hiring a bad employee, to feel personal when it’s not.

        2. bamcheeks*

          Isn’t settling final pay on time the law? That was the other one where I was like, what alternative are you envisioning? Withholding legally-earned pay?

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            I think the legal requirement in most places is that it be paid at the next regular pay period, and LW means sooner than that by “promptly.” Possibly a cheque presented to the employee on their final day during a scheduled parting of ways.

            1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

              That even varies wildly- where I’m at, I think that’s the law- the next pay period or within a short amount of time* but I’ve run into a situation where an employee who had move from another state expected that she’d be paid immediately upon termination- that’s apparently the law in her old state.

              (*One of my jobs was a two week pay period, I was fired at the beginning of a pay period, had to wait over two weeks for that pay check, then had to wait two more weeks after that for vacation payout. I don’t think that’s the norm, but I also don’t think it’s illegal here.)

    4. Worldwalker*

      I was going to post a reply, but you wrote exactly what I was thinking, but so much better.

      Yeah, that was such a whining “poor me” letter. I wonder if he’s managed to sink his business yet?

    5. Echo*

      That’s why I think Alison is right here that the letter writer is burnt out. When you feel an overall lack of fulfillment and reward, it can manifest in weird ways. Your comment is completely right – but emotions don’t always bend to facts.

    6. McThrill*

      “We always managed to pay our staff on time (which is a legal requirement of owning a business and actually not negotiable)”

    7. Cmdrshprd*

      “If you are going to keep the BENEFITS of ownership”

      I think part of the problem is that it seems until recently (business had not been profitable previously) there were not many benefits of ownership. It is not the employees fault, and I am glad OP is now profitable, but 10 years of breaking even or running at a loss is a long time. I could not have done it.

      OP was/is working 60+ hour weeks, being an owner often means you have less control of your schedule and have to be always on, “boss/owner gets to set their own schedule”

      OP was not making money driving a fancy car and sailing around on their yacht. It is easier to deal with problem employees when you are living a good life outside of work.

      1. Richard*

        Yeah, I think OP has been genuinely having a rough time and has plenty of reason to feel frustrated, exhausted, etc. It sounds like life has been pretty hard for quite a while! Their misstep is in blaming the employees, who are easier to blame than the nebulous concept of “this is just how entrepreneurship works when you’re not independently wealthy.”

        1. wordswords*

          Agreed! The comments today are full of real uncharitability towards OP, who it sounds like has been doing the right things and wrote in about managing their feelings of exhaustion and burnout about it. And OP definitely is placing the blame in the wrong direction, but in a way that’s very easy to do when you’re exhausted and struggling. OP absolutely does need to reframe their thinking (and, if at all possible, try to take a real break or cut down their hours for a bit, though I realize that may be difficult), but it sounds like they’ve been working hard and absorbing hardships for a long while, and deserve some empathy. All of that is part of the deal with business ownership when you don’t have a lot of wealth to buffer it, and as Alison says there are business reasons as well as decency reasons to do all of it, but it can still suck, and that’s why OP wrote in.

        2. Beth*

          OP definitely sounds like they’ve been having a rough time. 10 years of debt and overwork would not have been worth it to me–I would’ve shut down long before that! So I can absolutely understand how they’d be feeling burned out and frustrated.

          But it’s not OK to blame their employees for that. It was their own choice to work extra hours. They haven’t listed any examples of really bad employee behavior. (It would be one thing if someone had stolen tens of thousands of dollars, but the worst things they list are underperforming employees and bad reviews.) It’s not OK to blame people under your power for feeling like the choices you made weren’t worth the sacrifices in the end.

      2. Mango*

        There are other benefits to ownership aside from $$. LW probably has a board seat, company shares, control over company culture and business strategy, decides who to hire and fire, probably gets the extra sparkly treatment that upper leadership tends to get, has the prestige of being a “business owner”even in their personal life, and also knows they won’t get fired unless the business fails completely.

    8. JP*

      Yes…I had the same reaction reading through this. Alison was far kinder than I would have been in my response.

    9. Hyaline*

      Ehhh….I read that not as a complaint, but as a “this is where the business is at, I am anticipating the sorts of questions my situation might raise” statement. I read the actual complaint as more “(former?) employees badmouth us, we can’t respond to aspersions cast about our products and/or business in online reviews, basically I’m not the AH but I have to get labeled the AH a lot and just chin up and take it” and you know what? That is its own brand of exhaustion. Alison is spot-on that it simply comes with the territory, but it is exhausting.

    10. GrooveBat*

      This letter is reminiscent of the whining I see from small business owners who complain about how hard they work to build their business but their employees are “only in it for the paycheck.”

    11. Some Dude*

      I think the point is that he has been working like a dog for years and is just now breaking even, and, reading between the lines, has had a few employees treat him like garbage or like a fat cat sitting on a pile of money when the reality is he is working a lot and has a mountain of debt staring him in the face, and he’s frustrated by it.

      I can totally understand being frustrated by an employee acting entitled and awful when you are killing yourself and burning out to keep your business afloat. So he wrote to AAM to vent and Allison gave him some good advice about how to move forward.

    12. TheBunny*

      Wow.

      How about we give LW some credit for doing those things? Just because they are the right thing to do doesn’t mean employers do them.

      I had to threaten a former employer with going to the labor board after my final check was incorrect when I resigned. They didn’t care at all.

      And this wasn’t a tiny location either. It was a retail store I can promise you’ve heard of if not shopped there more than once (not Walmart…a mall store). So yes while he’s doing the legal requirement, not everyone does.

    13. flatwhitewalker*

      I once worked a temp job where the owners always paid us on time and treated a regular Friday coffee run. They also had shouting matches in the open-plan office, were generally dysfunctional, and had a Missing Stair Mister Gropeyhands on staff.
      When I (20’s F) laid a complaint about him groping me, they asked/told him to resign, then let me go the next week, then I found out there were 3+ complaints on file against that guy from previous staff (all women in their 20’s/30’s)… and THEN they hired him back on after I left.

    1. Wendy Darling*

      I appreciate that Alison can muster kind and empathetic replies to letters like these because I don’t disagree with her but I also cannot dig anything out of myself other than “OH STOP WHINING”.

      I really, really try to be empathetic and I’m glad there are people out there doing it where I simply cannot.

      1. amoeba*

        Huh. I mean, for me personally, the idea of working 60 h a week for 10 years with the fear of bankruptcy always present, huge personal debt and not making any profit seems pretty harsh. I’d have been burnt out and thrown the towel by, like, month 6! So while I agree he’s focusing on the wrong things, I find it pretty easy to summon empathy for him being burnt out, stressed, and frustrated. He just needs to learn to manage that productively (hopefully starting with a long vacation!) instead of feeling resentment towards his employees.

    3. Elbe*

      Agreed!

      The LW’s perspective is skewed here, and it’s making it seem like they want praise for doing the bare minimum, like paying their employees on time. That vibe comes across as pretty unlikeable, and I think a lot of commenters would not have been as balanced as Alison was.

      And she’s 100% correct – the sounds like a decent boss with decent ideals that is just burnt out and unhappy and stressed. It’s hard to work 60 hours a week, let alone for ten years, and without turning a profit for most of that. Because being the owner hasn’t had a ton of perks for the LW so far, it seems like they forgot that there is a huge difference between being an owner and being an employee – and expectations for those roles are understandably different.

  4. Stuart Foote*

    I agree with Alison’s comment about increasing wages being a good thing to help retain good employees, but generally my experience has been that most employers do NOT agree. Generally, the only way to get a big pay bump is to switch jobs. Very often, employees who do great work don’t get raises that much higher than employees who do the bare minimum, or sometimes not even the bare minimum. It’s common for workers to be underpaid by tens of thousands compared to the market rate, but employers would still rather take their chances with having to hire and train a new employee rather than adjust their current employee’s compensation. (I would imagine it is even worse for women or people of color). I can’t decide if there is something I’m missing and it is a net positive for employers to keep wages as low as possible even if it means losing good people, or if the goal of keeping wages low is so entrenched in American companies that it ends up hurting the company. Either way, it is very frustrating.

    1. Richard*

      Employers are astonishingly shortsighted about this stuff. I think sometimes, with publicly traded companies, the quarterly nature of things can incentivize weirdly shortsighted management choices. But I’ve seen similar stuff at privately owned companies, so making stockholders happy can’t be the only explanation.

    2. not nice, don't care*

      A lot of employers don’t care about keeping good employees. They prefer cheap and easy, and then can blame the new employees for problems.
      I’ve seen company owners make some seriously stupid and expensive mistakes because they believed an employee wasn’t working hard/performatively enough, or because they just didn’t like an employee taking ownership (ha!) of their workload.
      Customers/clients notice though, and take their business elsewhere. I certainly do.

    3. Your Former Password Resetter*

      There is a staggering amount of bad, short term management in the world.
      Even excluding all the greedy, self-serving decisions managers and owners make, a lot of people are just bad at management decisions. And it can’t improve unless those people are willing to admit they make bad decisions, decide to improve, and then perform all the work, uncomfortable self-reflections and changing of worldviews in order to get better.

  5. Maleficent*

    This reminds me of the scene in Mad Men when Peggy says “nobody ever says thank you” and Don shouts, “That’s what the money is for!”

    1. Lilo*

      Although Peggy kind of had a point where Don got an award for something Peggy developed. And wasn’t that the episode where Don keeps her late on her birthday, arguably to work on an idea but really because he can’t deal with the impending death of a friend.

    2. TPS Reporter*

      Don was pretty exploitative of his employees, especially women, and took a lot of liberties while he coasted on his own perceived excellence. I also imagine he made a truly exorbitant amount more than the copyrighters. OP actually does sound like a really good boss and doesn’t necessarily seem to be doing extremely well personally. So I do feel for them but also agree they shouldn’t take their feelings out on employees (from a moral and business standpoint)

    3. LickItBeforeYouStickIt*

      I think the point made implicitly when saying “we pay our employees ontime” is that they do have another option…they can lay off, reduce wages etc. and apparently aren’t doing those things.

      and while yes, paying ontime is a requirement, that doesn’t mean it’s always done…in fact, quite common in small business for some occasional delays. Good for them for fighting the good fight!

      1. Annony*

        But they aren’t avoiding lay offs and not reducing wages because they are altruistic. They do it so that they can keep their business functioning which is hard to do with no employees.

      2. bamcheeks*

        They are having lay-offs, though— that’s what I understood “ We bend over backwards to place star employees we cannot keep” to mean. Which isn’t a criticism — if you can’t afford an employee, you can’t afford them— but like; they are not altruistically avoiding lay-offs.

      3. not nice, don't care*

        Oh lordy. So employees also live under the implied threat of job loss, on top of being responsible for the owner’s mental health. What a great employer!

    4. Alicent*

      I actually did work for a guy who expected to be thanked for paying us. He acted like it was a charitable act despite us working often 50 to 70 hours a week and not getting a single raise in 4 years.

  6. not nice, don't care*

    Oh my, what martyrs. Sounds like the boss class has forgotten that employees aren’t children or serfs or down-on-their-luck relatives that can be expected to perform gratitude when bosses are feeling sadz.

    I’ve owned some successful businesses. I no longer own them, in part due to the demands and responsibilities of being an ethical employer. Don’t take it out on the help, boss people. Stick to the ‘contract’ aka work = pay.

  7. Person from the Resume*

    LW this is just a job for your employees. They will leave for other jobs based on what’s best for them and their families.

    You own the business. You reap the rewards of being the business owner (and the risks). You should be a good employer because it is good for your business. You should not expect gratitude for being a good, professional, decent employer. That’s the bare minimum you should do, and you should expect professionalism in return.

    Also you do sound burned out. Take care of yourself and your mental health.

  8. Caramel & Cheddar*

    LW, a lot of what you list here is bare minimum for running a business, not a “nice to have” bonus for your staff and I’m struggling to see where you’re specifically being exploited here. I’m confused why you’re expecting appreciation for things like paying people on time or “cheerfully” (what?) — that’s what you’re supposed to do! You’re not doing anyone a favour by meeting the bare minimum requirements as an employer and I think it’s odd to describe that as taking the “moral high ground.” It’s just running a business.

    I think it would be worth it to spend some time thinking about what are the minimum legal obligations of an employer and what is actually truly above and beyond.

    1. Czhorat*

      Yes, exactly. Tone is so hard to understand over text, but from this I get a vibe of “I’m so GOOD to them, why don’t they love me?” while the examples of being “so good” are a combination of bare minimum requirements (paycheck clears every month) to reasonable normal business practices (provide professional development, don’t get into the weeds badmouthing disgruntled ex employees).

      I think the LW needs to figure out what they want that they aren’t getting and why this bothers them; it feels as if they need some form of validation from outside of the business.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I think that really gets to the heart of it: your staff aren’t there to validate you or make you feel like a great person. If you’re missing that in your life — and who doesn’t like to feel validated? — it has to come from somewhere other than your employees.

        1. AnonymousAutisticBusinessOwner*

          Genuinely curious – where would be more appropriate places for LW to seek validation? Is this family, friends, therapy type stuff? Or is there something I’m missing?

          1. Caramel & Cheddar*

            Family, friends, personal interests? Mostly: not places where there is a power imbalance in favour of the LW.

            1. Czhorat*

              Also any place in which the main function is not commerce.

              Do I get some pleasure and validation from my job? Yes. Does MOST if my joy in life come from other places? Also yes.

              There’s my family. Hobbies. Various forms of entertainment. Most of what makes me happy in life is outside the business world.

          2. metadata minion*

            There are plenty of small business owners’ associations, online if there isn’t one local to the LW. That would be an ideal place to talk out this sort of frustration.

      2. Nicosloanica*

        The fact that the business hasn’t been lucrative enough for OP to scale back / pay themselves enough to not mind the workload certainly stinks, but … that’s certainly not the employees’ fault. People start their own businesses because they’re hoping to make a lot of money. It seems like that isn’t happening, so perhaps OP needs to rethink their business plan here.

      3. bamcheeks*

        I think they have drunk too deep at the fountain of “we love business owners! business owners create jobs!” and have forgotten that that’s not actually supposed to be the point of the business.

      5. H.Regalis*

        Agreed. They sound really burned out and like they’re looking for their employees to meet their emotional needs, which the employees rightly are not doing because that’s not their job and not an appropriate thing for the boss to ask of them.

        I know this is a reprint and I hope the LW is in a better place now mentally and emotionally.

  9. Lilo*

    I understand feeling being burned out, but, boy, no. Paying people on time, keeping up with industry pay, and not starting social media wars, those are all normal expected things.

    This LW needs to find a way to take a break and not develop animosity to employees.

  10. Honoria Lucasta*

    I did wonder as I read the letter if there is also an undercurrent of regret over some poor business decisions early in the life of the company. Taking on extra debt and continuing to raise salaries even though the business hadn’t turned a profit yet may very well have been the safe business thing to do, but it might not have been. Perhaps the business could have turned a profit sooner. if they had run a tighter ship in the early years. I’m not saying that they should have stiffed their employees, but it sounds like they might have badly managed some people who were not contributing to the business, or they might have made some bad hiring decisions that they had to walk back later only after incurring some significant costs. I agree that that’s all part of doing business, and hopefully the reward comes in 5 years when the business is very profitable and they as the owner receive the payoff from their early investment.

    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      or even had fewer employees. If you can’t afford employees without taking on personal debt its time to assess how the business is run. or if it should even exist.

      OP you are burnt out which magnifies all of this. But this is part of running a business. It’s not just getting to turning a profit, its all the downsides too – like long hours, debt and everything else that isn’t fun.

      1. Lilo*

        The problem is that LW made those decisions to keep the business going. The employees didn’t and blaming them for that is just going to result in self sabotage.

      2. Liz Bender*

        I have to disagree a bit here on the taking on personal debt as a sign that the business is mismanaged or shouldn’t exist. I work in business lending, and basically EVERY new business is funded by either personal money or personal debt. Funding from venture capitalists is not the reality for the VAST majority of businesses regardless of how compelling the venture and how well thought out the business plan.

        1. Starbuck*

          Ten years of no profitability seems like a long way past what is reasonable though. Maybe some industries that is the norm? But it seems like a big gamble.

          But either way, LW chose to make that gamble, no one else. If they think being an employee is so great and easy and they get to always be right… they can go be one!

          1. Liz Bender*

            I understand where you’re coming from, but profitability can mean a few different things. Plenty of businesses show “profit”, i.e. income on their taxes, while still holding business related loans. I was assuming profitability meant they are now making enough in 1 year to pay off outstanding business related debts. HELOCs are fairly common (pulling equity from your home in the form of a credit line) to start businesses and those tend to have 20 year terms, so 10 years doesn’t sound especially long to me.

            1. Starbuck*

              Good to know; the LW seemed stressed enough about the debt and emphasized it in a way that made me assume it wasn’t typical or was particularly onerous or something.

              1. Liz Bender*

                I’m sure any debt they carried on behalf of the business was particularly onerous for them. It undoubtedly impacted their ability to take on debt for personal reasons. Imagine not being able to replace an aging vehicle because your business debt has eaten up any wiggle room in the debt to income calculation.
                I know the tone of the letter is very “poor me” but I really do sympathize with this letter writer. This isn’t in direct response to anything you’ve said Starbuck, but I’m seeing a lot of pretty harsh comments along the lines of “paying people is the bare minimum” and “owning a business is it’s own reward”. And the reality is that owning a business is a pretty all encompassing endeavor and few people really understand what that entails until they are in the letter writer’s shoes – financially committed and emotionally burned out.

                1. AthenaC*

                  Not to mention that “paying people on time” is NOT something all businesses do, and weirdly, those do seem to be the ones where the owners are living lavishly and yet inspire a lot of VERY hard work and loyalty among their employees.

                  Yes, you and I can see that it’s obviously an abusive employer / employee relationship but, small business communities being what they are, I bet you LW has seen at least a small handful of those people doing all the wrong things and getting unjust rewards. Compare that to the LW doing the right thing, probably having some pay periods where they are crossing their fingers the bank will agree to an increase in their LOC a half hour before the deadline to timely fund payroll … yeah I can see why the LW might be a bit resentful.

          2. Zephy*

            That’s where I’m falling. Why is LW expecting to be thanked for something no one asked them to do? Bro, you chose this.

  11. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

    Also, please remember: your employees do not have the same perspective on the business that you do as the owner. They likely have no clue about most of how the business is run- and they shouldn’t because that isn’t their responsibility. It does mean that they aren’t making decisions or behaving the same way that you would because they don’t have the information you have.

  12. fhqwhgads*

    Yeah, none of that is exploitation. Exhausting, sure, but that’s literally what owning a business entails. If you had a flood of employees lying to you in order to get something they weren’t otherwise entitled to, sure, then be pissed about that, feel exploited. But also like Alison said, examine your hiring practices that you ended up with that many dishonest employees. Nothing described is anything other than How This Works.

  13. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

    > We have always managed to pay our staff on time

    Pretty sure this is a legal requirement in all 50 states (plus a few territories)?

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      A conversation I had with my father around his retirement, why he stayed with one company instead of chasing the next job (which is very common in automotive sales; his longevity was not), sticks out where he said the family that owns those dealerships “never messed around with pay, never late, short, or bounced.” After some research, those shenanigans are really more common than I’d liked to have believed, so I do give LW credit there.

      LW sounds not just burnt out, but depleted from over-involvement as well. If the business stas profitable, I’d champion looking for a foreman/plant manager/etc to offload a lot of the mental stress and strain to.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        “Lots of other employers don’t do the bare minimum” is not a reason to give LW credit for doing the bare minimum. Our expectations shouldn’t be that low.

    2. Leaving academia*

      I looked up the original letter and its update, and a lot of comments focused on this line. The original letter writer did not directly address this, despite responding to other comments. However, having seen a friend go through years of startups almost-but-then-not-actually running out of money, not paying employees on time is often an indication of *dire* financial states. While letter writer doesn’t seem to have meant it this way, it could be used as “things were bad, but not so bad we couldn’t pay” (not that that would be worthy of praise…)

  14. ecnaseener*

    This is the type of response that makes AAM great. Compassionate to start, then gently but firmly walking through the realities of the situation to get to the key point of “that’s simply not what exploitation is, bud,” then wrapping up with more compassion and advice.

  15. Beth*

    Exploited is such an interesting word for an employer to use. That’s a word that people without power use to describe the way people with power force them to act against their own interest. In the employer/employee power dynamic, it’s pretty much always the employee that ends up in that position. One person can’t hurt the company as much as the company can hurt that one person.

    OP, what’s going on with your business that makes you feel like your employees have enough power over you to exploit you? I think it’s worth taking time to examine that feeling and see if it holds up to logic. Being expected to pay people on time, be polite to departing staff, etc. shouldn’t feel that onerous for a successful business.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      That word confused the hell out of me! I honestly was struggling to understand what the problem is here: “Our employees are doing their jobs, and I feel like they’re exploiting us”?

      I really felt like I was going to read about really bad employee behavior, like stealing, or padding their time cards, or bringing cheap-ass rolls to the potluck, or walking out with a microwave, but nope, none of that.

      I think LW has more of a problem with the nature of capitalism, not with their employees.

      1. Socks*

        If I squint, I can see a train of thought that goes basically, “My employees have gotten the benefits (employment, pay) of me running this business for a decade whereas I’ve only gotten 60 hour work weeks and mountains of debt, so who’s really coming out ahead here?” But of course the issue is that the OP is the one who made every decision leading up to this point, and you can’t be exploited by people with no leverage over you.

        1. Worldwalker*

          Also, if the business really takes off and he sells it for a million dollars, the employees get bupkis and he gets a million dollars.

          1. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

            Exactly. The owners have equity in the company, and ostensibly the reason they were willing to risk personal debt was that there was a legitimate chance of significant gain down the road. But there’s also risk. Their employees are not assuming the risk; they’ve traded the potential windfalls if the value of the company skyrockets for a steady income. This is the most fundamental of things.

            I’m somewhat reminded of the letter where the boss wanted the money from the employee who won a couple grand playing blackjack on a business trip…and Alison laughed them off because clearly they wouldn’t have reimbursed their employees if they had lost money gambling. Same thing here.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Yeah, I think that would be a valid question, but…the question would be “did I make a mistake by running my own business? Would I be better off quitting and looking for a job working for somebody?”

          I think there is sometimes an impression given online that running your own business is an “easy option” or at least that it’s supposed to “free you from the nine-to-five and leave you free to be your own boss,” so I can imagine the LW getting disillusioned if they believed that it would mean freedom and authority and not being dependant on anybody to pay your wages and then realised that it actually meant a whole lot of red tape and rules about how to manage employees as well as all the financial responsibility and risk.

          But…none of that is the employees’ fault.

      2. MsM*

        The vibe I’m getting is “our employees do their jobs, but they’re not always happy about it and they don’t always keep that to themselves.” Which…yeah. It’s a job. OP’s obviously not 100% thrilled with all of their responsibilities, either. As long as the one super-disgruntled employee was an outlier, they need to look elsewhere for validation. (And if there are a lot of consistently vocally unhappy workers, then it’s time to do some investigation and reflection on why that is.)

      3. Irish Teacher.*

        Yeah, I was sure it was going to be something like “we never ask for certs when people are sick and we have generous sick leave but we have some people who call in sick every time we are under pressure/take way more sick leave than most companies would offer and I think some of them are taking advantage which makes me regret not looking for evidence.”

    2. Lisa*

      If they only just started turning a profit, there’s a good chance the LW still has a lot of debt that they are responsible for. Meanwhile, their employees have been paid consistently. It’s possible they’re feeling frustrated about how long it’s going to take them to get out of that debt, when the employees never had to face the same financial struggle. The employees may also be expecting that, now that things are profitable, they should share in the profit, when the owner really needs to use the profit to pay off the debt of the last 10 years.

      I can see that being frustrating, but it seems like it could be misdirected animosity, projection, or some other unwillingness to confront a more real but personal source of frustration. Maybe “I finally made it to profitability and I don’t think it was worth it.” Or “I wish I had made different decisions to get here faster, because there’s still so much further to go because of all this debt.” Not sure, but being upset at the people least able to make any change to the situation seems like a way of avoiding having to answer the hard questions. Which of course is also made harder if you’re a burned out husk just going through the motions at this point.

      1. Nicosloanica*

        Yep. It’s no doubt very frustrating to run a small, struggling business. But the frustration still shouldn’t be directed to “my employees want to be paid on time.”

      2. Worldwalker*

        The employees have had to face the fact that they could be fired tomorrow, for no cause at all (the joys of “at will” employment) and have far fewer resources than a business owner to fall back on if that happens.

      3. Beth*

        Exactly – I think OP’s frustration is misdirected, and they’ll have an easier time getting past it if they can stop focusing on their employees and identify whatever’s really bothering them instead.

        Being a business owner is fundamentally taking a big risk in the hope of big rewards. You have to put in a lot of work: pay for materials and labor, handle common business challenges like bad reviews and underperforming employees, build a customer base, etc. If the business fails, you risk eating the cost of those things, both in time spent and in money invested. If it succeeds, you can make way more money than you would as an employee. Success is supposed to make all the struggle feel worth it.

        OP is finally hitting the point of profitability, but it seems like they’re not getting that feeling of “it was worth it.” They feel exhausted and burnt out. And that’s understandable–but blaming it on employees isn’t OK. OP needs to figure out what’s actually causing that feeling and address it, or they’re going to keep feeling this way.

        1. Pescadero*

          “Being a business owner is fundamentally taking a big risk in the hope of big rewards”

          Bingo. Don’t go to the casino if you don’t like gambling.

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Yeah – I GET the burnout, I get that employees can be frustrating. I can even see maybe one of the “takes a whole pizza home before anyone else can have any” employees might be described as exploitative – not personally the word I would use, but I could understand. None of what LW describes falls under that umbrella.

  16. juliebulie*

    I had to read the letter several times to understand why OP felt that the employees were taking advantage. OP sounds really burnt out and disenchanted, and it’s possible that OP’s employees are starting to feel the same way.

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      It read to me like there must be a few specific, unstated instances of employee behavior that the OP is reacting to; that’s the only way it makes sense to me.

      If it’s really a general perception of their workforce overall, then either they are doing something wrong in their hiring, they are misguided in how well they treat their employees, or they are burnt out and not perceiving the situation accurately.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Maybe all three. But if you’re turning a profit, and getting good reviews that cancel out the bad, at least some of the employees are doing something right. Underperforming employees are often a cost of doing business to some extent, getting this clouded in a few bad experiences (which is what it sounds like to me, since none of this is egregious) is a terrible way to run your business, recognize your good employees, or frankly preserve your own mental health.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, I wondered about this, too.

      One, employees who “delivered no discernible value” . . . well, who was managing them? If they were that bad they should have been managed out sooner. The LW had the authority to do that. And every workplace is going to weather a dud employee now and then. We had a guy who stole petty cash. But he got caught and was fired, which solved the problem.

      But I also wonder if this is a business that has sort of jumped the shark, or at least didn’t take off the way the LW expected (even if it makes him a solid living), and he’s seeing that as an employee problem because it’s easier than seeing it as a management problem or as a “this industry is no longer in as much demand but I’m not sure how to pivot after so many years” problem.

  17. Higher-ed Jessica*

    LW seems to be seeing things through a lens of “I made these sacrifices for my employees.” No, you didn’t–you made these sacrifices for your business, i.e. for your own benefit. You chose to be an entrepreneur, which is inherently a gamble–you make sacrifices and invest a lot of time, money, and effort into your startup, in the hope that it will become successful and enrich you, the owner. If you don’t like that tradeoff, you could get a regular job working for someone else instead of being a small-business proprietor. This is what you chose, and the obligation to treat any employees (that you choose to hire for the benefit of your business) fairly, decently, and legally came along with your choice.

  18. Admin4theWin*

    Lol did my boss write this?

    Unfortunately, that’s the cost of running a business. You have an image to uphold in the broader community. People don’t want to work for free and they shouldn’t. People also deserve to be paid on time due to living expenses.

    As the person who was hired to run the Admin part of a small business, I see both sides of this. Yes, it can be really exasperating with rising costs, labor laws social media etc to run a business in addition to creating time for yourself. But it is also frustrating when your boss doesn’t understand the human aspect of employees. They’re just trying to get by in this exhausting world and need empathy and REST. It’s hard to understand both at times but you need too.

    Sounds like you should take a break!

  19. Fluffy Fish*

    Being the boss is thankless. You don’t get your kudos from your employees. You get your kudos by you business performing well.

    Those employees, while humans, are business assets just as much as the building you’re in and the equipment you use. I doubt you feel exploited because you maintain your equipment but the equipment never thanks you.

    You are doing what you do because it is good for your bottom line. Your reward is a successful business.

  20. Lady Lessa*

    I wonder if the LW is the type that enjoys the challenge of starting something new, but actually running the business in the day to day routine is hard, and not necessarily in their skill set. We see that a lot in new tech businesses.

    Perhaps they could bring in another person to actually manage things, while both founders develop new stuff.

  21. girlie_pop*

    I have to wonder if the LW is a regular reader of the blog and sees the massive amount of letters that come in from people being mistreated, exploited, and bullied by their employers. I don’t know where they got the idea that everyone thinks “The employee is always right” because I don’t think that’s even close to the prevailing attitude.

    Don’t be a business owner if you don’t want to be expected to deal with all of the things that owning and running a business entail!

  22. I should really pick a name*

    This LW seems to have left out the ways the employees are exploiting/victimizing them.

    One ex employee badmouthing the company and a few negative reviews are not significant issues.

    1. Czhorat*

      THIS.

      There’s a great deal in the letter about the perceived good the employer is doing )much of which is either bare minimum or normal business practice) but no actual examples of HOW they feel “exploited” by the employees.

      I’ll admit my bias – in the current capitalist system power stems from capital and ownership, especially in the US. It’s very hard for me to imagine a scenario in which the employees are *exploiting* the owners.

    2. perdue wonderchicken*

      This, but not ironically – I wonder if there’s something the LW left out that would make the “exploiting” word choice make more sense. Otherwise it just seems like they’re feeling unappreciated.

  23. Statler von Waldorf*

    Letters like this are why I could never do AAM’s job. There’s not a chance in hell I could be even half as empathic when responding to a letter like this.

    My response would be, If you have an employee who is being a bully and victimizing you, you have the power to fire them. Why are you not using the power you have to fix this instead of just whining about it?

  24. El l*

    I’m probably more sympathetic than most here to OP.

    I’m sorry your employees played dirty, and that this feels like “this is the thanks I get.” And there IS a psychic cost in being the bigger person. Fine to feel all this.

    The only thing you can do is resolve that the occasional bad one won’t affect your broader attitude. And to take a break, work fewer hours, and bring back non work you.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      There’s “fine to feel all this”, and there’s “I am victimized by an employee and I do not understand the power dynamics in this situation to the point that I chose to write to someone about it”. The basic premise is absolutely valid, we all get frustrated – but OP has lost all sense of context here.

      1. el l*

        Yeah, it’s an emotional reaction. Agree that terms like “Exploited” and “Bullied” are out of line. But much to be empathized with.

  25. Richard*

    This is such a graceful answer, and one that I think will be genuinely helpful to OP. Alison is a master of diplomacy.

  26. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

    Alison’s response to this letter is so so so good. She’s so insightful and amazing. AI will never be able to explain human nature like this.

  27. whatchamacallit*

    if your employees are that bad you can fire them at will. You have completely made up this “exploitation” in your own head. The power is not remotely equal on both sides! Paying employees on time is what you’re legally obligated to do, you don’t get points for doing that. I say this as someone who has worked for a small business before and HAS been paid late by the owner. I fully expected, based on the title, to read that they were all taking massive, unearned PTO or something, but this is just… a normal workplace.

      1. Worldwalker*

        There’s a saying that the two happiest days in a boat owner’s life are the day he buys his boat, and the day he sells it.

        If you’re parting ways with an employee who “delivered no value” then naturally, like the boat owner selling his boat, you’d be cheerful about it!

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      Thanks for the link. Yeah, the update makes the whole things sound way more reasonable.

      And by the way, I love your username and have been reading it with various interpretations – Judge Judy and her executioner, Judy Judy and an executioner, she’s a judge, she’s Judy and she’s an executioner…

      1. Judge Judy and Executioner*

        It’s from the movie Hot Fuzz. One of the characters tells the other, “He’s appointed himself judge, jury, and executioner.” The friend mishears this and replies, “He’s NOT Judge Judy and Executioner!” It’s one of my favorite movies, and I adapted it as my screen name here. :)

      2. Happy*

        From The Simpsons:

        Homer: Marge, I can’t live like this, I’m tired of walking around on eggshells!
        Marge: Maybe if you didn’t throw them on the floor… (gestures towards eggshells that Homer is standing on)
        Homer: Now you’re just making up rules! Who made you Judge Judy and executioner?

    2. Cynical B*

      Definitely burnt out, but I’m finding it hard to feel more than a slight increase in compassion after reading it. If an employer came to me and expected me to be grateful for the sacrifice they were making, I’d be updating my resume. I got enough of that kind of guilt tripping from incompetent parents.

  29. Head Sheep Counter*

    I do not have it in me to work that hard and go that far in debt while paying others. I would be exhausted and burnt out and frankly would feel like I did all of this for someone else’s benefit. Knowing this about myself has always held me back from being a boss. So I empathize.

    I’m glad you are finally making a profit. Can some of that profit go to taking a good solid break? And perhaps a future retreat for the owners to take a good look at what is succeeding (because making a profit is a good thing) and what held that back? What kind of company do want? One that does all the good things that caused a portion of the debt load or one that makes profit at the cost of something else?

  30. CheesePlease*

    I think if you’ve taken on massive personal debt and you see it as “I took on debt to pay yo your salary and yet you still cuss me out at work!” it can be demoralizing. I sense that employees have perhaps acted in such a way that OP feels is rude, but they haven’t provided examples.

    Re-framing it as “I made a business decision to take on debts to sustain the business. Also Fred is a jerk to me sometimes. The two are unrelated” may be helpful for OP.

    If your business struggled to turn a profit but you also have employees who “delivered no value we can detect” that is perhaps a business failure on your end. Don’t take it out on employees. Use your power as the boss and train them or let them go.

  31. Director of HR*

    To me, it sounds like the LW is building a decent environment for employees but has not created appropriate boundaries for themselves. For example, “Who decided that the employee is always right?” How could this be the case? This sounds emotional rather than factual. Or “Don’t both sides have responsibility to be fair, sane, and cordial?”. Of course, and it sounds like you could have a culture where you say …. please don’t speak to me is that tone.

    I am wondering if you have grown to the point where you need some stronger HR practices – and person to help process employee matters one step removed from owners.

    1. Just Thinkin' Here*

      Agree on this one – sounds like the bosses are still too much in the nitty gritty of the daily grind rather than using their time for strategy and leadership.

  32. bertha*

    I get it can be frustrating….but doing the right thing by your employees and FOR your business is not being exploited.

  33. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    This reminds me a bit of my ex who would claim that I should never complain about anything because ‘I don’t hit you and I paid for dinner that one time’.

    I mean, it’s more a sign of a fundamental incompatibility than anything else. If you require praise and good feelings to be constant then you need to either a) remove yourself from the situation or b) get help to remove the part of your psyche that is requiring it.

  34. froodle*

    “We settle final pay cheerfully and promptly for employees who have delivered no value we can detect.”

    Wow. Imagine telling on yourself this hard. “We paid what we were contractually obligated to pay even though the employee suuuccckkked”, like, yeah? That’s the contract?

  35. ldub*

    Alison, I’m so curious about your continued use of the word “sane” in your answers! This is such an inclusive space in so many ways, and I have seen (and participated) in other comments around the use of “sane” and “insane” here, so I know there’s been feedback in this space. A quick search could explain in much more detail (here’s the top result of the search I just did: https://therollingexplorer.com/ableist-language-to-avoid-and-acceptable-alternatives-insane-edition/)

    Changing from ableist language really involves just saying what you mean. When you say we have a responsibility to be “sane,” you don’t mean “of sound mind; not mad or mentally ill,” since all kinds of professional, respectful people have a mental illness. I think you mean we have a responsibility to be responsible, respectful, rational, realistic, etc. So I’m putting in another request to just say what you mean, instead of reverting to “sane” or “insane” to describe a work situation or colleague.

    1. Fluff*

      Adding a link for information about sane. This one helped me understand it better. I’m AuDHD and did not realize the issue with the terms.

      https://medium.com/artfullyautistic/the-explanation-we-need-with-using-ableist-and-saneist-language-but-the-conversation-we-have-to-e22bacef166

      Another poster wrote something like “He has excellent social skills. He chooses to use them for evil.” Technically, he is sane. And he is not “responsible, respectful, rational, realistic, etc.”

      Boy, this is a hard habit to break (for me). I am also working on that.

      Thanks ldub.

  36. Irish Teacher.*

    I’m honestly trying to figure out what the employees did wrong here or how they exploited the boss. The LW says that she is behaving ethically and legally but feels she is being taken advantage of, but I was looking for the part about how the employees were not behaving ethically or legally and apart from one reference to an ex-employee criticising them, which may have been unfair (or may not), I didn’t see anything.

    The last two paragraphs don’t seem to connect to the rest. The first three paragraphs are about a company doing…nothing wrong and being either good to work for or at least not bad and then the last two suddenly raise the issues of employees being bullies and victimising employers. It seems like the actual issue here is missing. If an employee is bullying the LW or victimising them…well, it’s hard for anybody to comment on that without knowing what they are doing.

    Employees are definitely not considered to be always right. Yes, in many (perhaps most?) countries, it is easier for an employee to leave a bad employer than it is for an employer to fire a bad employee but on the other hand, employers often have more freedom not to hire somebody than employees have not to take a job. Yes, in theory, nobody has to work anywhere but in practice, our food and shelter depends on having a job and people often have to take what they can get, at least temporarily, whereas a company is often freer to wait until they get “the right fit.”

    I think employees are expected to behave ethically just as much as employers are. Just as it would be completely unacceptable for an employer not to pay an employee on time, it would also be unacceptable for an employee to falsify a timesheet to get paid for work they hadn’t yet done. Just as employers have to pay employees who “add no value” for the work they have done, employees have to do their work even for employers who don’t give them any chance of promotion.

    It sounds like the LW is saying “we meet bare minimum standards. Why don’t our employees?” without giving any examples of how the employees fail to meet minimum standards.

    1. New Jack Karyn*

      If this letter is from the US, it is very easy to fire someone! In most states, an employer can fire someone for any reason (barring discrimination on specific characteristics).

      Yes, I think ‘no discernible value’ is doing a lot of work here. It reads to me that the business had a recent run of bad hires–either just not good at the work, or goofing off/falsifying timesheets/dipping early all the time. It must be frustrating! And sometimes you just get a spate of bad luck.

      But . . . it does all come back to ownership. They make the hires, they design the policies, they oversee all operations. Do they need to change their hiring practices? Tighten up supervision? Be more willing to part ways when it becomes plain that someone isn’t working out?

      LW was in a bad patch–they had let themselves fall into a damaging mindset, were clearly burnt out. They’re still a human being, and I hope they’re doing better now.

  37. McThrill*

    Love letters like this. “Employees can be so mean sometimes, doing things like treating this job as a business transaction, and that makes me sad. When they aren’t outwardly grateful for my outstanding generosity of ‘paying them on time’ and ‘not withholding their final paycheck’ it makes me want to stop doing the things that I’m legally required to as a business owner.”

  38. KB*

    Alison is amazing. I couldn’t have been so insightful or empathetic.

    But…I’m still puzzled by the OP’s reaction.

    Maybe the OP is actually being exploited by their partners.

    Are all partners really going into debt and working those hours? For NINE years? All of them!? No one took breaks for family or vacations?

    I mean—the employees only, possibly, gave the company an un-deserved bad review. Maybe it was deserved. What were their other sins? Getting fired for not being great? Getting paid in the first place?

    I’m puzzled.

  39. They knew and they let it happen*

    It can be lonely at the top for sure, but all the things mentioned here are just the normal ups and downs of a business. Certainly no exploitation, and using wording like that won’t win you any points

  40. Kella*

    OP, it sounds like you’ve had a difficult 10 years. But unless you’re leaving out something really significant, those difficulties are not the result of your employees. In fact, it sounds like all the things you list as “being exploited” are actions you have *chosen* to take, as Alison points out, for the benefit of your company. Yes, it sucks when people say bad things about you and you can’t clap back. But that’s honestly a professional balancing act that lots of people have to navigate on an individual basis too.

    I understand the sentiment behind a lot of the other comments here along the lines of “Suck it up.” But what I’m going to advise instead is this: Get clear in your head that your stress, burnout, and emotional exhaustion is *not* the fault of your employees. Figure out whether the actual cause is in your control and whether you want to change things to try to resolve it. Anything you choose not to change or that is not in your control to change, seek emotional support from friends, family, or a therapist. I promise you that your employees saying “Thank you” more often isn’t going to fix it, though.

  41. E*

    Related to paying folks on time – I want to ask folks to be a bit more charitable to the OP when reading this.

    As an anecdote, my dad started a business when I was a kid and to be able to make payroll for his employees sometimes didn’t take a paycheck for months. CLEARLY this is the legal and correct thing to do. However, I knew this was very hard on him and my mom.

    That doesn’t mean OP is right in how they were framing their thinking in the letter – OP is not a victim here – but do please be kind.

    OP – I know this is an old letter, and I hope you found a sustainable path forward both professionally and personally.

    1. Czhorat*

      Perhaps, but that was his choice. It’s as if you bought an old house and then talked about how much money you had to spend fixing it up; Yes, it’s hard, but you knew what you were buying when you signed the contract.

      OP chose to start a business and hire employees. That means that OP is responsible for paying those employees the agreed-upon wage on time. Doing so should not be an example of what a great employee they are; it’s bare minimum. Quite honestly if they CAN’T do that they shouldn’t be starting a business in the first place.

      1. ferrina*

        People complain about their houses all the time! Even in this housing market, where the cost of ownership is already out of reach for a lot of people.

        The key thing is the audience. You don’t complain about your house to someone who has been trying to save for a down payment but can’t in this economy. But that doesn’t mean that your house isn’t being annoying. Find the right venue to complain to, and keep your perspective (you can be very lucky to own a house and still be frustrated by it. Also, I love my children very much, and they also frustrate me incredibly sometimes. They are also expensive, through no fault of their own).
        OP clearly has had a tough time of it, but complaining to employees is definitely not the right audience. And while complaining about the cost of labor and supplies is a thing, it’s also important to remember that that is set by market rates, and you are not obligated to buy supplies/hire labor. Yes, it may be necessary for the business to survive/grow, but that is not the fault of the supply/labor. Keep perspective while finding the right place to vent.

    2. Zona the Great*

      I think people are being Kind. In the sense that being nice isn’t being kind. Being honest and perhaps brutally honest is what is kind here.

    3. Strive to Excel*

      OP sounds horribly burnt out (and maybe like the business had some bad decisions early on) and I empathize with that so hard, because a lot of the choices we make early on to set ourselves up later are very hard in the short and medium term.

      I think where people are feeling salty is OP wondering where the appreciation from the employees is. You can’t go into business ownership expecting your sacrifices to be validated by your employees. That is the path of “we’re all a family here” and hideous dysfunction. Your sacrifices are validated by your success, by your family, by the product you’re making, maybe even by the media, but your employees are the worst people to look for it from because of all business relationships that is the most transactional.

      I hope they got a badly needed vacation!

  42. Generic Name*

    Oh boy. For starters, Alison is very nice and compassionate in her answer. I read this letter and several things come to mind. In no particular order.
    -Should LW even be running a business?
    -Being a boss/manager is at best a thankless job.
    -The business seriously has turned zero profit in ten years? Is that typical for the market/industry? If it is atypical, how far off from the norm is it?
    -Why was LW keeping employees who provide zero value?
    -I got the feeling that LW was wanting/expecting some kind of fulfillment/adoration/respect/thanks/whatever from their employees. LW needs to look for this in other areas of their lives.
    -Sure, take a vacation or a sabbatical, but if you come back and are disappointed to not be getting adulation from your staff, reconsider if owning a company is for you.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I agree with all of this. The profit piece in particular – it’s great that they’re turning a profit now but I have to wonder if the mindset in this letter is the source of bigger issues with the business.

  43. Raw Cookie Dough*

    OP, I too, am a business owner and feel your pain. I also know that there are thousands of details not in your letter, that adds to your frustration.
    As Alison advises, you definitely need a vacation. But more than that (for the long run), you NEED a community of other business owners. Find a networking group for business owners who understand what you’re going through, and will have more solutions than you can find on your own.
    I belong to an online group and up until the pandemic, when it disbanded, was also a member of an in-person, local group. I’m considering joining my local chamber of commerce to replace it.
    Employees, as demonstrated in the comments here, are not your people.
    Good luck.

    1. Kotow*

      I know this is an old letter, but this advice is spot on. I absolutely believe that there are so many minute details that have contributed to the OP feeling the way they do that they opted to leave out of their letter. “Exploit” is a bad choice of words. But “I have employees who take advantage of my easy-going nature by calling off last minute because they know I won’t penalize them and of course I’ll step in and do the work for them” is very possible and is a scenario which shows up even in letters that people send to Alison! If it were easy to change this dynamic, it would never be a problem in the first place.

      So OP, I hope you’ve been able to find a community of business owners who understand how this works and will know what you’re experiencing. There aren’t always easy solutions but it doesn’t mean you have to go through it alone.

  44. Snoozing not schmoozing*

    Even Ebenezer Scrooge paid Bob Cratchett on time. That’s about the lowest minimum of decency there is in a work situation.

  45. Zona the Great*

    I once had a boss who screamed at us for how much labor cost her. Like that isn’t a universal experience of owning a business. And to think a person would think abusing said labor was a reasonable response. She also screamed at us for refusing to work over 8 hours per day (she loved bragging about how she refused to pay time and a half) in the same breath. I made so much money off her after I quit and reported the unpaid OT to the state board. She actually had to close her business. Don’t feel bad at all.

  46. Hexiv*

    Employers have a greater responsibility to do the right thing than employees because they have more power in the situation. You might’ve heard this in the comic books: “With great power comes great responsibility.”

  47. Czhorat*

    Something I’m wondering here:

    The LW said that they were working at this for a decade, sometimes up to 60 hours per week, with no profit.

    How did they pay their personal expenses in that time? There’s a limit to how much you can borrow, and I don’t know if it’s possible to live entirely on debt for a decade. I’m not sure I entirely understand this situation .

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      “I don’t know if it’s possible to live entirely on debt for a decade.”

      Oh it definitely is.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I’m not the LW so I can’t know for sure, but it’s probable that they paid themselves a salary during that time and lived off of that salary. A very simplified view of the business may look like this:

      2009-2018:
      Yearly business revenue: $450,000
      Yearly rent + other expenses: $100,000
      Yearly payroll expenses for employees: $300,000
      Yearly salary for LW: $50,000
      Yearly business profit: $0

      2019:
      Yearly business revenue: $500,000
      Yearly rent + other expenses: $100,000
      Yearly payroll expenses for employees: $300,000
      Yearly salary for LW: $50,000
      Yearly business profit: $50,000

      So in 2019, for the first time in a decade, the LW gets business profit on top of their salary (in this hypothetical example).

      1. Czhorat*

        Eh. Then it’s $50,000 profit for the business you own; it’s still operating in the black, or at least neutral.

        If it were truly in the red there wouldn’t be $50K for the owner to keep.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Mm no typically if you can’t pay all employees a salary, including the owners, you aren’t operating in the black

        2. New Jack Karyn*

          No, an owner taking a salary for the work they put in does not mean the business is operating in the black. They might be taking business loans, for example.

  48. Telephone Sanitzer, Third Class*

    It would be easier to judge this if we actually knew what unfair things the employees were accused of doing.

  49. Lucifer*

    Some of the things this LW boss describes—like paying out final paychecks for people who leave—are literally legal requirements? So uhh, that’s not really anything to brag about as an example of a boss who view the extra mile.
    IMHO.

  50. Just Thinkin' Here*

    LW, I hear some of this frustration as being a symptom of the larger problem – you’ve been working extra hours in high stress situation for 10 years with little financially to show for it. It’s true most new companies don’t turn a profit for a while, but 8 years without profit sounds as either you’re profit margin ratio (revenue vs costs) is off or you’ve got too niche a market and can’t expand. Small businesses are often initially funded through debt by the owners, but most of that should have been paid back by now or refinanced into the company’s name using other assets such as commercial real estate and equipment.

    You as the owner need to spend more time on these issues and less on the day to day human resource management issues. Are you holding your supervisors accountable to deal with these tasks? Are they creating policies and procedures so you don’t have to drop everything to fix daily problems? Make sure your management team is managing so you can spend your time getting the bigger business in order.

  51. Strive to Excel*

    “Turned a profit only recently”

    Sorry OP, them’s the breaks with manufacturing. That’s why most businesses start a lot smaller. It’s a hard field to be in.

    But also – small business owners, please please please, get people involved early on who can help you! If you can’t leave for ten days (even with your phone on!) without your business floundering 5 years into its operation, you need to start training a second in command who can take over.

  52. Veruca Salt*

    My take on this is *very* different. Hire a reputable, certified firm to appraise your business. EBITDA is king, and your previous years of running in the red may affect the valuation. However, a good valuation will rely on the discounted cash flow analysis method, which will capture future growth. If you have IP (copyrights, trademarks, proprietary processes or systems, other trade secrets), these will add value. Lots of things can drag down the valuation are but some that may be relevant to yours are: owners/shareholders who work more than 40 hours a week, above market rate wages, annual capital investments, shareholder loans to the business recorded on the balance sheet, etc.

    If you only want better employee relationships, why bother investing $2,000 to $5,000 for such a report? Think of it like an annual health check-up, and employee relations are a critical component of your business’s overall health.

    A valuation firm may also be able to provide you with data on comparable manufacturing businesses, helping you to benchmark your manufacturing company. You may already have some information from industry trade sources, but valuation firms often provide more granular and actionable insights. These metrics can not only help identify areas of improvement but also help address the frustrations you’re currently facing.

  53. RagingADHD*

    LW, if you feel like

    a) meeting the basic legal requirements to pay people on time and in full (including settling final paychecks within the required timeframe) is an intense and meritorious effort;
    b) after ten years you are still running on such thin margins that you are constantly this exhausted; and
    c) you do not derive enough material benefit from the business to make it worthwhile and reduce dealing with a few troublesome employees an ordinary “cost of doing business,”

    then I think it’s time to meet with an experienced business mentor and financial planner, and reconsider whether your business is too volatile to be sustainable.

  54. Nonanon*

    Yeah, Allison is nicer than I would have been (as usual). “My employees aren’t bending over backwards with adoration because I do the bare minimum” isn’t a good look; if you expect undying loyalty from your employees, you’re a bad business owner.

    It’s giving “keep my business small enough so most federal requirements don’t apply” vibes; I wonder about the REAL welfare of the employees.

  55. Raida*

    Goddamn, how much money did you owners all start with to afford no profits for a decade? Or do we mean “the business was in the black five years ago but we ran on debt for three years so we’ve only just crawled out of the debt to experience the profits.”

    Anyway – it’s a good thing to not burden staff with “if we don’t make a profit well have to make cuts…” and so forth. But at the same time, if they are unaware of your efforts then they cannot show you any thanks for those efforts.

    It is only going to create uncomfortable staff to say “I didn’t pay myself last month” “we redrew on the mortgage” and so on, and you’d have gotten three results: Staff looking to work elsewhere since the business is under threat of closure, Staff looking to help like ‘we are one big family’ who will undermine their own health and finances for you, Staff who’ll be waiting to be asked to work overtime for free or get hours cut or jobs combined.
    None of those are good things.

    So you ethically did the right thing.
    Staff did not, from your letter, do any wrong things.
    You just wish that all these people you’ve worked hard for saw and understood it – but the balance of that is you have been working *for yourself as well* so this isn’t all charity and don’t fall into the trap of thinking it is.

    Find a group of business owners, chamber of commerce, meetup group to discuss business ownership and management. Carve out an hour a fortnight for purely social time. Take a holiday, and then try to take, like, every other Friday afternoon off. Train someone up to be you in your small absences.

  56. Ginger Cat Lady*

    He says he doesn’t expect kudos, but I’m not sure what, exactly, he DOES expect? Because it sounds like he wants kudos.
    Or maybe he just wants a perfect reputation? Odds are this guy isn’t as perfect of an employer as he makes himself out to be. And I do think it’s likely that there’s some truth behind the complaints, maybe he just doesn’t want to face the fact that he isn’t the perfect employer.
    Either way, he doesn’t sound cut out to be a business owner at all.

  59. Alicent*

    This letter could have been written by my former employer, except he acquired the business from his father. He literally told us that he expected to be thanked for paying us because he had to pay taxes on our wages. We were called ungrateful like employing us was a charitable act. At one point he told us all to quit if we weren’t happy. Half of his upper level staff quit within a couple months and he was LIVID. We were all working 50-70 hours a week around the clock and nothing was ever good enough. I’m pretty sure there was also some fraud going on with our commission and emergency call out fees because when we pointed out missing pay he screamed at us. Clients have noticed and they are not happy because turnover continues to be horrendous and building relationships is a huge part of the work.

    He probably was burned out, but we didn’t tell him to spend $500k on a business expansion that wasn’t planned well, especially if he was only taking home $90k/year like he claimed. None of us got a raise in the four years I was there. If we wanted more money we could work another 10 hours a week and MAYBE see some extra at the end of the year. For all the time he spent in business management seminars he didn’t learn a darn thing about managing or motivating people and used coercive control as the easy way out.

  60. KatKatKatKat*

    “It turned its first profit recently, but all this time, we as the owners have taken care of everyone by taking colossal personal debt and making incredible sacrifices.” You start a business to make money, not to take on colossal personal debt for a decade. This business has big problems…

    1. Dido*

      Yeah, this person clearly has their own personal motivations for continuing to run a failing business, it’s not because he wants to keep his workers employed

  61. Grumpy Old Tortie*

    I agree with LW. I work in a profession which unfortunately attracts lots of people with mental illness (llama doc). Being a normal employer (holding employees to reasonable standards in safety, attendence, reliability), providing the same benefits and payscale as the big corporations, meant being the target of unrelenting bullying, trash talking, attempts to take advantage of my good nature. Best thing I did was sell it and switch to per diem work. Most common comment initially – that I am nothing like my reputation. LOL!

    1. Wow, really?*

      Sounds like entrepreneurship is not for you. I’m glad you’re happier.

      Most people don’t trash talk without some reason, though. There’s no excuse for bullying, but how can an employer be bullied when they hold most of the power in the employer/employee relationship?

Comments are closed.