I have regular happy hours with only one of my employees, coworkers complain I’m not as fast as my predecessor, and more

by Alison Green on December 12, 2024

I’m on vacation. Here are some past letters that I’m making new again, rather than leaving them to wilt in the archives.

1. I have regular happy hours with only one of my staff members

I manage a specialty niche team of four within a larger department that otherwise doesn’t have specific teams. My direct reports are the only ones in the department who only report to one manager (me). Last year, I hired someone I knew from a previous job, let’s call her Mary, where we were at the same level, but now she reports to me. I am a happy hour aficionado, and regularly host happy hours for my staff where they are all invited (with no pressure to attend) and I pay for everything, maybe once or twice a month. These happy hours are billed as “unnecessary calorie hour,” because the goal is to focus on spending time outside work together in a less formal environment, not drinking alcohol. I do drink at these events, and historically, people who don’t drink have most often chosen not to come, whether they don’t drink for religious reasons or because they have a long drive home.

Increasingly, these invitations are only accepted by Mary, so we end up spending significantly more time together outside work than I spend with the others on my team. This isn’t a problem for me and I enjoy these outings, but I worry that the perception among the others on the team is that Mary gets special one-on-one time with me because she is my “drinking buddy.” I would be thrilled if others would attend and interact with me on a more personal level more regularly, but I also respect their off-work time and would never pressure them to hang out when they’d rather be doing something else. Mary definitely gets more of my attention because she chooses to join me at happy hour, and while it isn’t directly due to our prior relationship, I fear that it’s being perceived that way. But I want to keep doing happy hour because I really enjoy it! Since this is becoming less of a group-accepted kind of event, should I just stop doing it?

Yes, you should stop doing it. Regardless of your intent, the effect is that you’re having regular one-on-one social hang-outs with one of your employees, which can cause all sorts of problems with real or perceived favoritism. I get that it’s fun and so you’d rather keep doing it, but your responsibilities as a manager trump that.

If you want to keep having happy hours with colleagues, focus on organizing them with people who don’t work for you.

– 2017

2. My coworkers complain I’m not as fast as my predecessor

Two months ago, I received a promotion from a support position in a low-revenue department to a support position in a high-revenue department. The position had been unoccupied for a month and was previously held by a very nice and very helpful gal for a little less than a year.

I do not have a direct manager (just someone “over me” for administrative purposes who is willing to look over my work if I ask her to) and no one else in my office knows how to do most of my job duties, so I have mostly had to train myself. I am a one-person department. Everyone else in the department was laid off several months ago. They are working to hire a new manager, but it will be an outside hire. They are looking for someone with experience in the field but obviously they won’t know our systems or processes.

The problem is, I am constantly being compared to the gal who previously held my position. I’m constantly hearing “Katie was able to do this a lot faster” or “Katie could pull this report” and other things along those lines. (I hear this from coworkers but not from higher-ups.) How do I handle a situation like this? I really love my job and my employer but I’m concerned that I’m doing a terrible job.

People are astonished that you’re not performing at the level of your predecessor when you’re had no training and your whole department has been laid off? These people … are not very insightful.

Ideally a manager would be telling them to knock it off and pointing out that’s it ridiculous to expect you to perform like Katie when you’re brand new and have had no training or support. Since there’s no manager, you’ll need to do some of this explaining yourself. It’s going to be tricky because you don’t want to sound defensive … but the next time someone makes one of these comments try saying, “I’m sure she was. I want to be up-front with you that I’m still figuring this out. With the rest of the department laid off and no one here to train me, I’ve been having to figure this out as I go. If there are specific things you’d like me to do differently, please tell me! I’d welcome any specific input you have.”

Also — is there anyone else in your organization who does work that’s at all similar? Even if no one else is doing the same thing you are, there might be people doing work that’s similar enough that you could pick their brains or get some training from them.

– 2017

3. Urging my severely diabetic coworker to get treatment

This morning a coworker informed us she would no longer be buying candy for the department because her tests came back that she has diabetes. I gently inquired if she received her A1C, not intending to inquire the actual number, and it came to light that the A1C converted to an average of 450 mmg/doL blood glucose. Using the American Diabetes Professional conversion calculator, that’s an A1C of 17.3. A diabetes diagnosis is made when a person has two A1Cs of 6.5 or greater in a row.

She says she’s going to try to control it with a ketogenic diet (which she admits will be challenging) and I asked if she was working with a dietitian and she said no. I asked if “they” (meaning her doctors), put her on insulin and she admitted she didn’t see a doctor. She ordered the blood tests herself and has self-diagnosed diabetes.

Not realizing how seriously her glucose was out of control, I simply encouraged her to test her blood sugar so she would know where she was and how her body handled her diet. (I am also aware of the risk of ketoacidosis.) She lamented the cost of test strips and when I mentioned that if she got a prescription for the strips, insurance would cover it. Then it came out that she hasn’t seen a doctor since the early 2000s and seems to have some baggage about seeing one.

After mentioning her glucose reading to a MD friend, he said he’d hospitalize her with insulin treatment if she were his patient, and said that a diabetic coma can occur at 500 mmg/doL. So apparently her diabetes is really severe and I’m concerned that she doesn’t realize how bad her health has gotten. I want to encourage her to see a doctor for treatment, but I feel out of place. You and your readers are awesome about phrasing things and I hope you can come through for me on this. We have a good rapport, but we don’t have a lot in common over which we’ve bonded. I’d like to handle this with kid gloves so she doesn’t shut down the topic altogether.

“I don’t want to pry into your medical situation, so I won’t bring this up again — but I know a bit about diabetes and the blood sugar level you mentioned is considered extremely serious. I believe a doctor would tell you that you’re in serious and possibly immediate danger if you don’t get medical treatment right away. Again, I don’t want to butt in and I won’t continue to raise this, but I’m worried about you and want to make sure you know that the numbers you saw are a really big deal and you might not have a lot of time to wait to see a doctor.”

At that point, you’ll have given her the information she needs, and it’ll be up to her what she does with it — so do stick to not asking about it again after that unless she brings it up.

– 2017

Read an update to this letter here.

4. Company wants to call me for an “informal chat”

A few days after submitting an application for an open position at a major company in my city, I received an email from their HR saying that they would call me within one or two weeks for an “informal chat.” They couldn’t say when exactly they would call, but I didn’t need to worry about it because it was not an interview and if I was not available at the time they called, I could return it.

I’m confused by what this means. They say it’s not an interview, but if they get the impression from this call that I’m not a good fit, I will be disqualified as a candidate. How should I prepare for this? Do you have any tips for these “informal chats”?

Prepare for it as if it’s a formal interview. It might be one! Some employers are weird about this and like to make early stages of their hiring process sound more informal than they really are. “We’ll just have a conversation!” “Come in and get to know us!” But from the candidate’s side, those things are usually interviews, and you should prepare the same way you would if they were calling it that.

Occasionally it really is something less formal. It’s possible that they just want to tell you about the job and see if you’re still interested and/or learn a little about you. Even then, the best thing is to prepare the same way you would for an interview. Be familiar with the company and the job posting, and be ready to talk about yourself, your experience, and your interests. You might end up being over-prepared, but that’s better than being under-prepared.

(Also, companies: Stop doing this. No matter how informal these conversations are, they’re interviews. They’re part of your assessment process, after all. Call them interviews. You are confusing candidates. And schedule them for an actual time, not “we’ll call sometime in the next two weeks.”)

– 2019

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{ 238 comments }

{ 238 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Nodramalama*

    “unnecessary calorie hour” is such an odd way to frame it, and would be more likely to turn me off than just calling it a happy hour.

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    3. KateM*

      For me it sounded like OP was trying to hide from [whoever deals with bills/billing] that this is a drinking event, so it seemed that OP knew or suspected that going to a happy hour with their employees broke a work rule. So the implicit illegality of it is what would turn me off.

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        1. bmorepm*

          of course it can mean that, but it’s definitely not how it is used in the statement you’re referencing, at least not correctly used. you wouldn’t say “whoever deals with” if using it in the advertising sense.

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          1. Hlao-roo*

            “whoever deal with” comes from KateM’s comment, not from the actual letter. The LW says “I pay for everything” at the happy hours. The full context of how “billed” is used in the letter is:

            These happy hours are billed as “unnecessary calorie hour,” because the goal is to focus on spending time outside work together in a less formal environment, not drinking alcohol.

            I also read “billed” in that sentence in the sense of “advertised.”

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            1. No Rudolph*

              Yes “are billed as” there means “are referred to as” – the metaphor being as though they’re literally advertised, but it means colloquially discussed as etc

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      3. Sloanicota*

        I read it as an attempt to be inclusive of people who might not want to drink, but still want to join. Like, they are still welcome and can order a round of chips or a dessert or whatever.

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    4. MK*

      It was a way for OP to not be upfront about the fact ghat this was a drinking event that excludes non-drinkers, despite knowing for a fact that it is an event that is centered around drinking and non-drinkers are excluded.

      It is baffling how OP could write down all this information all about how problematic her behaviour is, and still pretend she doesn’t know how problematic it is.

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      1. bamcheeks*

        Yes, I was reading all the caveats about how some people don’t drink but there’s no pressure to drink and after all that there’s literally just LW and her friend? This is a lot of words to say, “I just want to hang out with one member of my team but have it be ok”!

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        1. Emmy Noether*

          Interesting. I read it as in LW’s ideal world, the whole team would go out drinking with them every week and have a roaring good time, and LW is trying very hard to wish that into being.

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          1. Wolf*

            How did it not even occur to LW to hold this event in a venue that isn’t focused on booze? If I want to chat with coworkers, and half of them don’t go to a bar, why not chat with them in a waffles cafe, or a tea-and-scones place.

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              1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                Happy hours usually offer cheaper food (like a selection of appetizers) as well. And assuming that someone who is price sensitive has a drinking problem, rather than that they like getting a glass of wine for five bucks rather than ten, is a weird take.

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                1. ecnaseener*

                  KateM, we’re talking about once or twice a month here. Appreciating, even fervently, appreciating a happy hour once or twice a month simply does not a drinking problem make. Unless you took it to mean binge drinking, which we have no reason to assume.

            2. Marion Ravenwood*

              Yeah, something like that feels like a better fit for ‘unnecessary calories hour’ (though I also don’t love that phrasing) than a bar. But then those places don’t tend to open after work hours. Maybe something like a standing monthly lunch invitation might have worked better.

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              1. JustaTech*

                Yes. I would *love* to do “happy hour” of snacks and coffee after work rather than at a bar, but all of the coffee shops near my office close at 3.

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            3. Meep*

              This is what I desperately want when I hear “unnecessary calorie hour”. We go to various restaurants (rotating employee picks) that we have never been to before and order all the appetizers on the menu. Drinks are optional.

              Preferably after an intense deadline so it is a tradition.

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          2. bamcheeks*

            I think it’s that “enjoying happy hour” comes first, so their first wish was to try and justify it with “everyone at work enjoys happy hour, it’s team-bonding time” and when that didn’t work, the fall-back position is “me and Mary enjoy happy hour, but it’s not exclusionary because I TRIED”. But their priority is that they like happy hour, so they’re not exploring other options that the rest of the team would like because the team-building aspect isn’t really what they’re going for.

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            1. londonedit*

              Yeah, I definitely got a sense of ‘It’s not our fault no one else can make it – we can keep going by ourselves, right?’

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            2. L-squared*

              I feel like “team building” has a specific connotation that the goal is to help you guys work together. Something like happy hour is purely social. And while I’m fine with the argument that doing happy hours all the time isn’t the wisest choice, I’d also say it’s perfectly valid to not want it to be about team building, and just being about relaxing and being social.

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              1. bamcheeks*

                Oh OK, that’s different from how I’d use it then. I would see a social event organised by the team manager as one form of team-building rather than something different. If my manager is sponsoring/organising, or if I’m the manager sponsoring/organising, then I personally feel it’s still work-related and not just purely socialising. I’d only do pure socialising with people I’m peers with.

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              2. GammaGirl1908*

                I think happy hour can be team building. The issue here is that this LW is apparently doing happy hours as the only team building activity because that is what she likes. She is not bothering to find team building activities that the TEAM would like. The one-on-one time with the report is not good, of course, but it’s a negative side effect of there only being two people for whom this activity works.

                I would think nothing of it if LW did a happy hour maybe more like quarterly, and did other team building stuff the rest of the time. This team has people who don’t want to stay late after work (at least not this often) and don’t want to drink, so LW needs the other team building activities to take that into account. If they did a breakfast sometimes, and a lunch sometimes, and a non-food activity sometimes, and THEN a happy hour sometimes, it would be different.

                (LW also needs to adjust expectations about her team filling her social needs, but that’s neither here nor there.)

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            3. Falling Diphthong*

              the team-building aspect isn’t really what they’re going for.
              I think you’ve hit the heart of the problem here.

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            4. Dust Bunny*

              This was my thought–they haven’t explored other options because that’s not really the point.

              I drink a bit but I find bar settings physically uncomfortable and would not be inclined to accept an invitation like this on a regular basis–maybe once or twice a year instead of once or twice a month.

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            5. Observer*

              But their priority is that they like happy hour, so they’re not exploring other options that the rest of the team would like because the team-building aspect isn’t really what they’re going for.

              Exactly.

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            1. londonedit*

              I highly doubt the LW is an alcoholic – you’re allowed to enjoy going to the pub without being an alcoholic. It’s definitely a problem in that she’s the boss and she’s only going out with one of her subordinates. That’s the problem at hand. The ‘well she MUST be an alcoholic’ thing really annoys me.

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              1. Marion Ravenwood*

                Yes I agree. I don’t know if this is a cultural thing – in most UK workplaces no-one would bat an eyelid at a team going for drinks once or twice a month after work. That is not ‘alcoholic’ territory to me. And ‘aficionado’ may just be OP’s shorthand way to say ‘I enjoy going to happy hour’. But as you say the frequency of these trips is not the issue – it’s the fact OP only ever goes with one other person and that person isn’t on the same level as them at work.

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                1. No Rudolph*

                  Yeah “aficionado” is clearly referring to knowing which places have good deals on their happy hours, where you can get e.g. a house red and several good apps / snacks for pretty cheap.

              2. MigraineMonth*

                Yeah, this is just “alcohol culture”: the baseline assumption that for a social event to be enjoyable, of course alcohol must be provided. Many, many people who aren’t alcoholic are still a part of alcohol culture.

                (I consider binge culture, where almost all social events are alcohol centered and a lot of drinking is expected and encouraged, to be a distinct subset.)

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            2. Insert Pun Here*

              “Happy hour once or twice a month” is not exactly a red flag for alcoholism. I agree that the OP should change it up for morale/equity reasons, but come on.

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              1. Observer*

                “Happy hour once or twice a month” is not exactly a red flag for alcoholism.

                Absolutely. But *in this particular context* it is a flag for really bad management and poor adaptation to their role. Because the LW should be finding other ways to enjoy their happy hours than getting their employees involved. Especially since it’s clear that a lot of people do not enjoy it, and in this case it’s leading directly to a clear issue.

                Which is a long way of saying that I think that the mentions of alcoholism are a bit of a red herring that obscure the bigger problem of poor management.

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            3. MK*

              Alcoholic is a huge stretch from what’s in the letter. I am getting either “person who doesn’t have much of a personal life outside of work/not the kind they want anyway” or “person who feels they need to justify their socializing”. Most people who describe themselves as happy hour afficionados would choose to go with their friends; trying so hard to make this a thing in your workplace sounds like someone who might not have many friends, or at least friends that are willing and able to participate in happy hour (e.g. not local friends, friends who are parents, friends who don’t like drinking). Or, alternatively someone with a partner who would nag about going drinking with friends, but accepts “work event”, or a parent who feels guilty not going home immediately after work, so prefers to frame it as such.

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              1. HonorBox*

                Or it could be that she just thought “work happy hour” was something people did. Now knowing that only one person from work does want to participate, it is time to pivot, either to something different, or just stop it altogether.

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                2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

                  That’s the part that is the true failure. Oh we have lots of people who don’t drink, but I like drinking so Happy Hour it is. This is no different than a boss who likes extreme sports insists that all team building activity be some athletic thing instead of mixing it up.

                  OP also lists lots of reasons why people won’t come, don’t drink, long commute home, impinging on non work time, but somehow never comes to the conclusion that maybe Happy Hour then isn’t the best way to bond. Again because she likes it.

                  OP, its not about what you like,, its about what can bring the team together. If its just you and one report, its failing at that goal.

                3. MK*

                  @Dust Bunny “failure to read the room” would be not realizing happy hours aren’t wanted by most of the team. It sounds as if she understands that pretty well.

                4. Dust Bunny*

                  @MK I’m not sure she does. She recognizes that they aren’t well attended, but that’s not quite the same thing as realizing that they aren’t wanted.

                5. Wayward Sun*

                  In some workplaces it *is* something people do, so this may partly just be difficulty adjusting to a new workplace culture.

            4. AMH*

              It really makes me uncomfortable when comments head in this direction. While I think OP absolutely should stop the happy hours for both the favoritism and the fact that it’s clear they don’t work for her team, making the leap to suggesting they might have an addiction feels wildly out of scope.

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              1. GammaGirl1908*

                This. A couple of drinks a couple of times a month — and there is no indication of anything else — is nowhere near a problem.

                The problem is that LW enjoys this but is ignoring that it’s not the right fit for the team. Enough of this team does not want to do after-work or alcohol-focused events as team building that LW needs to acknowledge that and plan accordingly. She needs to do most team-building during work hours and with something other than alcohol all the time. That has nothing to do with her specific drinking habits.

                (In fact, plenty of the team members may be having a drink at night. They just want to do it after they commute and possibly not with their colleagues.)

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            5. L-squared*

              I love that just yesterday, a commenter wrote in about how many conclusions people jump to based on very little information, and Alison even made a “Thanks for pointing this out comment”, and here we are with the same thing happening.

              Someone likes getting drinks a couple of times a month with coworkers? Must be an alcoholic.

              You guys really do love to think the worst of people

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              1. Happy meal with extra happy*

                Honestly, so many comments in this thread are so judgmental. People are commenting as if one of OP’s employees wrote in, not OP themself asking Alison to confirm that she’s got to stop the happy hours. There’s nothing wrong with the OP enjoying them and being bummed that they can’t go on.

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              2. Observer*

                You guys really do love to think the worst of people

                That’s a bit unfair. Notice how many people pushed back even in the short amount of time that it took for Alison to find and delete the comment.

                I agree that it is a wild and fairly ridiculous take. It’s also, imo, counterproductive. But I don’t think it’s widespread.

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                1. MigraineMonth*

                  I think that comment sections in general tend to have an amplifying effect on the most fringe opinions, particularly if there’s no “downvote” mechanism. I’ve only seen two comments saying that OP might be alcoholic, and Alison has already removed both as violating commenting guidelines.

                  However, there are (as of writing) 17 comments arguing with those comments, which ends up making them seem much more important to the discussion. Kind of like how debunking a myth sometimes propagates the myth, part of our brain just attaches meaning to the repetition of a fact, even while disputing it.

      2. Yorick*

        I think it’s less about hiding that it’s a drinking event and more about trying to show that you don’t HAVE to drink if you attend. But the non-drinkers are choosing not to attend anyway.

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      3. Seashell*

        It sounds like it was meant to be an event in a bar that is not centered around drinking/getting drunk; hence the calorie reference. It doesn’t sound like it was meant to exclude non-drinkers, but I could see that some non-drinkers may not be comfortable being around any drinking.

        I agree with others that the “unnecessary calorie” thing could be off-putting for a variety of reasons.

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        1. Jackalope*

          And in addition to possibly not wanting to be around people who are drinking, there’s the fact that a lot of bars just aren’t great places to socialize if you’re not drinking. They tend to be loud so it’s hard to hear what other people are saying. Unless you’re there for a specific event – say, a trivia night – they don’t have a lot that you can do besides drink (eating a few appetizers is a lot faster than eating a regular meal at a restaurant). You’re basically stuck there unable to hear the conversation and without anything to do but watch your coworkers drink. Not that all bars are like this, but I’ve had enough such experiences that I would mostly bow out.

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        2. Caramel & Cheddar*

          I also interpreted it this way — that calling it the “unnecessary calorie” thing was a suggestion people could come and order the three dip platter or chicken wings or whatever instead of drinking.

          I will join the chorus in agreeing that’s a weird way of phrasing things and is off-putting in general.

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        3. No Rudolph*

          It’s trying to be cute in what reads to me as a very mid-to-older lady standard way, e.g. self-deprecating humor at going out for snacks. As we know, that custom of mild “humor” is triggering to a few and cringe to a lot of others, so it’s not the best. But what she was trying to communicate is that happy hours are an activity focused on the discount, not on “going out drinking”. Half priced apps and small bites are clearly the main draw, so in OP’s mind, non-drinkers shouldn’t feel unwelcome (though in practice that’s clearly the case.)

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      4. Myrin*

        I have to admit I’m quite surprised by this take, as well as by the fact that apparently many commenters have the same one!

        Like, I wholeheartedly agree that OP should stop “hosting” these events and possibly never should’ve started them to begin with, but I don’t understand why people quite adamantly and uncharitably don’t take OP at her word when she says these get-togethers aren’t supposed to be centrered on drinking and that “non-drinkers mostly don’t attend” is a simple observation which doesn’t necessarily mean that OP is projecting that image (although that’s possible, too). In fact, it’s possible that the non-drinkers wouldn’t attend other events, either, and the long drive or religious reasons are just a (true but) convenient excuse. Maybe not, but that’s what immediatey came to my mind.
        (We also don’t know that these events take place in a bar, btw, even though many commenters seem to have taken it that way. You can hold happy hours in all kinds of venues.)

        What is actually much more concerning to me is that OP is a manager and yet seems to have taken quite a bit of time to realise that possibly these events aren’t the best thing to host, with her desire for them outweighing her thoughts on what’s best for her team. She seems to be getting there – as can be seen by the fact that she wrote this letter! – but seems to be motivated mostly by “what would/does this look like to the rest of the team?” instead of “everyone but one team member chooses to not attend these events most of the time, maybe they aren’t a good idea for teambuilding”.

        I believe that she’s sincere in her desire for everyone to attend, get to know her better on a more personal level, and have a good time, but I also think she’s failing to read the room.

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      5. bmorepm*

        I honestly don’t get this thinking. I’ve gone years without drinking, and always still attended work happy hours for the social aspect. If someone has had a difficult history with alcohol, then ok, but as a general statement to call this an exclusionary drinking event, that feels over the top.

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        1. Happy meal with extra happy*

          Me too! I rarely drink, either because I’m driving or I just don’t feel like it, but I still enjoy work happy hours.

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        2. lanfy*

          Bars can still be exclusionary even if there are plentiful non-drinking options, though, just because of the environment.

          I’ll happily drink, but I have hearing issues and I don’t like crowds. Bars are loud, so I can’t hear anything, and often crowded. And may smell of old alcohol too, which is a smell I find really off-putting.

          I’ll suck it up occasionally for the team bonding, but I’ll hate every minute and leave early.

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    5. Meep*

      I am a millennial so it is quirky and endearing to me, but I would also expect it to be a thing where we go to a restaurant and order a bunch of apps with our drinks. Sounds more fun then always just drinking.

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    6. iglwif*

      Yeah, to me “happy hour” means “time of day when bars have small plates for less money (oh yeah, and you can drink alcohol if you want I guess?)” whereas “unnecessary calorie hour” sounds … icky.

      Reply ↓
  2. LifebeforeCorona*

    #1 I suggest instead of a happy hour which many people may not be able to join because of other commitments have a “long lunch.” Let everyone have an extra hour at lunch and order in food or have it a a nearby restaurant. Or just have people bring their own lunch and provide a variety of non alcoholic drinks or a dessert.

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    1. I take tea*

      Oh, I like this! That’s a much better way to give staff access to the manager in a more informal way. As long as it’s not too often and no pressure to join, of course.

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    3. MK*

      I am having a very hard time giving OP the benefit of the doubt that the purpose of these events is colleagues socializing. It sounds like something she does for her own enjoyment.

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      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        A couple of previous companies have done a bring your own lunch event and it was a chance to speak to people that perhaps you wouldn’t otherwise talk to.

        I am firmly of the opinion that it’s a good idea to make friends in other departments, since you never know when you might need their help in an emergency.

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      2. Roland*

        Yeah she enjoys it… Because she enjoys socializing. Otherwise she’d just go on her own. What benefit of the doubt? It’s just the situation.

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        1. MK*

          If you enjoy socializing and the purpose of these outings is only to enjoy yourself, you should invite your friends, not your subordinates. Socializing within the workplace supposedly is about building better team relationships, not the boss having a good time. The first comment of this thread was kindly assumed OP wanted to include as many of her reports as possible (benefit of the doubt), but from the letter I don’t really get the impression OP cares that the most of the team aren’t participating, she just enjoys them as social occasions.

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          1. bmorepm*

            no one said that was the “only purpose.” additionally, as per the rules of this site, you should be taking the LW at her word.

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            1. MK*

              Eh, no. Taking OPs at their word is about believing the facts they state, not that one isn’t allowed to point out contradictions or question their judgement.

              OP states that “the goal is to focus on spending time outside work together in a less formal environment”, and then goes on to say that only one other person is participating, but she still wants to continue with the meetups. Given that they don’t serve the goal of spending time with her team informally, since her team isn’t showing up, OP wanting to continue has nothing to do with the stated goal, and apparently are all about her having fun.

              Reply ↓
        2. Colette*

          If her goal is to socialize with her coworkers, these events are a massive failure, since only one coworker shows up.

          Reply ↓
      3. xylocopa*

        This seems awfully uncharitable. OP would hardly be the first person to have a bit of a blind spot about how much other people might or might not enjoy the same things they do.

        Reply ↓
    4. Hyaline*

      Was going to say the same thing–if you enjoy creating and having informal time with your employees, and happy hour doesn’t work for most of them, whether because they don’t want to/can’t stick around after work or because being in an alcohol-focused environment is uncomfortable or not preferable for them, do something else! Make it a lunch outing instead! Or a group walk in nice weather or a coffee hour with pastries or monthly Cupcake Day where you go to a cupcake shop or whatever–but stop repeating the thing no one else enjoys.

      Reply ↓
      1. LifebeforeCorona*

        Yes, happy hours are very specific. They take place in bars, which are loud, there may not be enough space for everyone to sit together, it’s hard to hear over the noise and some people dislike pubs or bar for various reasons. Or they just want to go home after work and not feel pressure to drink or spend money that they don’t have.

        Reply ↓
        2. Pescadero*

          “They take place in bars”

          Lots of non-bars have happy hours. There are places where I live that have happy hours and don’t even serve alcohol.

          “which are loud”

          Not all bars are loud.

          “spend money that they don’t have”

          The letter says the OP pays for it…

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          1. metadata minion*

            I believe you that there are non-bars with happy hours, but given that the LW talks about wanting to focus on the non-alcohol aspects of it, I think we can freely assume it’s in a bar or other similar location. If someone said “come to happy hour”, unless they made it very clear this was at the ice cream parlor, I would assume it was at a bar.

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            1. Scholarly Publisher*

              Agreed. There are many restaurants in my area that have happy hour specials on appetizers as well as drinks, but if someone is talking about happy hour and not specifying a location, I’d assume they mean a bar rather than a restaurant.

              Reply ↓
      2. Ann O'Nemity*

        Or try a variety of things! Coffee shop, long lunch, happy hour, mini bowling, etc. Heck, one of my coworkers recently we make some paper snowflakes to decorate a sign at work – and it was an unexpectedly fun 20 minutes of socializing with the team. It doesn’t have to be “unnecessary calorie hour” every time. If the LW tries a variety of activities it’s more likely to be inclusive.

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    5. BW*

      This. I have no interest in hanging out with my co-irkers after work, especially if they’re drinking, but I’d really enjoy a long lunch and a chance to chat.

      Reply ↓
      1. Carol the happy*

        Can I give that phrase a hug and take it home? “Co-Irkers”! (please don’t break my heart and tell me it’s a typo! It’s serendipitously magic and old as I am, it’s new and beautiful.)

        I don’t drink. Never have. At my size, and chemical tolerance levels, if I even looked at a bottle of wine, I’d be on my butt under the table. My in-laws drink, but not my husband. Most of my coworkers have a few drinks on holidays or to celebrate an event. A pub or Gasthouse is one thing- anything with a neon martini glass dancing back and forth is not really work-friendly or team-building.

        For “happy hour”, our whole group go to Applebee’s, Chili’s, Longhorn, similar places, and we usually get 5 big mix/match appetizers (paid for by the “slush fund” we all contribute to each paycheck.) Alcohol isn’t always consumed, but teetotalers pay for our drinks independently, and drinkers order their own, in some way I haven’t noticed.

        These chain restaurants get noisy, so we do ours on a Thursday because Fridays are louder, and a bar would be an intolerable din for a few of us.

        Sometimes we have a potluck in the conference room after hours. During covid we put out a little cookbook with our personal recipes. (divided into healthy, old family, and our funny children’s descriptions of how to prepare food. “For Thanksgiving, we have Turkey. That’s a chicken that gets bigger in the stove. You stuff a box of crumbs in it’s butt and put it in the stove for three days. You make it very hot in the stove, that way the kitchen smells good. Daddy cuts the chicken on the table, so that way it’s a Turkey. Pigs are like that, too. if you want ham, you have to put it in the oven with rings and cherries, otherwise it’s just meat with deadly worms.”

        Seriously, though, one manager and one employee, at a bar, several times a year- not good management, not good optics.

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    6. Hush42*

      This. My company puts on happy hours roughly once a quarter for whomever wants to go. However, for my team specifically we do things like birthday lunches. I buy everyone lunch from whatever restaurant the birthday person chooses and then we push tables in the breakroom together and all enjoy the lunches. We do other small things too but this is definitely the most popular. And every birthday get celebrated, even if that birthday falls on a weekend, or on February 29th.

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    7. MigraineMonth*

      While it’s certainly possible people aren’t attending because of the alcohol, I’m betting that the happy hours being after work is the biggest reason other team members aren’t showing up. I’d try moving it to lunch and see what happens.

      (Yes, that will probably mean no alcoholic drinks as well, unless your workplace is more chill than mine.)

      Reply ↓
    8. iglwif*

      Yes!!

      Most people don’t want to spend extra time with their coworkers after work — they have other places to be and other people to be with (or would rather be alone to decompress). Whereas lunch is in the middle of the day, you’re already being paid to be at work, and it’s a nice break. Both are equally social, but lunch is more accessible to more people!

      Reply ↓
  3. judyjudyjudy*

    The Happy Hour letter strikes a chord with me because very recently a coworker told me that she was an alcoholic in recovery and would not attend any work events at bars for the sake of their sobriety. She blurted it out to me in an elevator lobby. That same evening was a team happy hour. I went to it (she did not) and spent most of the event thinking of sober hangs so that she could participate.

    So, if you’re a boss or the self-styled “social director”of your work group, maybe consider a mix of drinking and non-drinking events.

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      1. Bilateralrope*

        Find something that focuses on a specific activity, even if it’s just eating a meal at a restaurant. Vary up what that activity is so that people who don’t like one will turn up to others.

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      2. Hlao-roo*

        Suggestions at places where there is alcohol available, but drinking isn’t the main focus:
        – bowling
        – attend local sports game
        – dinner at a restaurant

        Suggestions of alcohol-free activities:
        – escape room
        – volunteer day (clean up a local park, Habitat for Humanity, etc.)
        – lunch at a restaurant (assuming your industry is similar to mine and drinking at lunch and returning to work is Not Done)

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        1. Wayward Sun*

          These are all good suggestions, although I will say that by FAR the most drunk I’ve ever seen someone get at a work event was a time we all went bowling. Most bowlers I know think they need at least two beers in them to really play well.

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      3. metadata minion*

        Coffee/tea shop, ice cream, walk in a local park, mini golf or other very-low-stakes sport-like activity, board game night.

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      4. Clearance Issues*

        -makers spaces where you pay for a craft you make while you’re there
        -game stores with boardgame tables and rentable games
        -escape rooms
        -dinner
        -jackbox games/other multiplayer game nights (started that during covid, works great for teambuilding if in person is not available)

        we had an increase from 5 regular attendees to 15-20ish out of 30 after we started having more options besides “get intoxicated with coworkers”.

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      5. Hush42*

        This is probably very specific but my office has a pretty nice (and large) breakroom. So one time I just brought in my waffle maker and made waffles for my whole team after work one day. I cooked Bacon and Sausage ahead of time, and reheated it in the air fryer. We also had fruit and whipped cream to top the waffles with along with maple syrup. This specific one really only works because I enjoy cooking and waffles are often a popular food. But we have also done stuff where we order food in and hang out or play games etc.

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      6. Em*

        When we do work happy hours, we meet at a restaurant instead of a bar, and appetizers are always ordered. People do order alcohol if they want but it’s not a true bar environment. Whether that would work for your coworker would depend on whether or not they are OK being around people who are drinking or if it’s just the bar environment that’s a trigger.

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      7. iglwif*

        * Outdoor walk in nice weather
        * Casual restaurant lunch (that company pays for)
        * Ice cream social / make your own sundae / dessert party (with appropriate dietary options for everyone of course)
        * Board game cafe
        * Afternoon tea
        * Mini golf or similar — kind of like a sport, but the lowest possible stakes (YMMV, some people can make literally anything too competitive to be fun)
        * Outing to local minor-league sports event (I am assuming here that major-league sports events are out of budget, but I could be wrong)
        * Kahoot trivia
        * Build-a-Bear

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    2. KateM*

      I feel like if you are a “social director” of a work group, it would in general be a good idea to consider a mix of events. If you ever do only one type of social events, there will always be some people whom this particular event does not suit.

      Reply ↓
      1. AcademiaNut*

        That’s the best way. Vary both the type and time of the activities for maximum coverage, because there isn’t a magic activity that everyone likes. And if someone hates all quasi social work activities let them opt out after a check in.

        Reply ↓
        1. KateM*

          And even if people did like a particular event, it doesn’t mean they want to do it every time, or that it is all they will ever want to do as a group.

          Reply ↓
    3. Richard Hershberger*

      It jumped out at me that the two reasons the OP could think of why someone might not drink is religion or a long drive.

      Reply ↓
      1. Roland*

        I don’t think OP believes those to be the only reasosns, they’re just the actual reasons for the people involved.

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    4. L-squared*

      I think a mix is good.

      At the same time, if I’m being honest, I’m probably not going out for coffee after work with my coworkers. I think there are going to be a number of people who are like “no drinks, nah, I’m good”.

      So that is something to keep in mind too. For many people, free drinks on the company is a much better draw

      Reply ↓
      1. Pescadero*

        Yeah – a mix is good… but I’m never going to any of them, ever, no matter what it is.

        Do it during work hours while I’m being paid – or I’m never showing up, no matter what.

        Reply ↓
  4. NoBananaPants*

    As a diagnosed diabetc, i SINCERELY hope #3’s coworker is under the care of a doctor! An A1c of 17 is nothing to play around with. From the update, it appears she is/ was trying to change some habits but she probably needs medication including insulin. Hope she’s ok.

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    1. JustNeeded*

      Agree. I know everyone is mad at the OP for monitoring her coworker’s food but at least she wasn’t saying anything directly to her. The coworker desperately needed to be on medicine for her diabetes ASAP, not trying to muscle through with lifestyle changes!! At that point, dieting would not have saved her from the very bad effects of that high blood sugar. She was in serious danger.

      Reply ↓
    2. CityMouse*

      It’s hard because you have to respect boundaries, but I do know how badly this can go from personal experience (a family member ended up needing dialysis due to kidney damage from untreated diabetes). Changes in diet are a component of a long term approach, not treatment for a medical emergency.

      It’s very, very sad and I hope the coworker saw a doctor.

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    3. Heidi*

      I’m even wondering about the accuracy of these blood tests she ordered for herself. For all we know, she could have ordered them from Theranos or something.

      Reply ↓
      1. Guacamole Bob*

        Self-diagnosis tests are often inherently suspicious, but it’s pretty straightforward to buy an A1C home test – it’s a finger stick process. You can get them over the counter at drug stores.

        Reply ↓
        2. Sir Nose d'Voidoffunk*

          There’s also a healthy secondary market for them, although it occurs to me that I haven’t noticed a “CASH 4 DIABETIC TEST STRIPS” sign on a telephone pole in a little bit.

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    4. Dust Bunny*

      Same. I also have a coworker who struggles to manage diabetes and I’ve suggested some things a few times (strictly socially, and I am not this person’s supervisor in any way) because I’ve watched other friends’ and relatives’ lives be absolutely ravaged by it (a friend who avoided doctors for 20+ years just had a leg amputated. They’re only in their late 40s), but at this point I’ve said all I’m gonna say and however this person manages or doesn’t is up to them, unless they ask me for input. But I do actually care about this coworker as a person and sometimes it’s hard to watch.

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    5. Hyaline*

      As I read, the fact that she self-diagnosed and apparently got her own blood tests from…who knows where? made me wonder if these numbers were even accurate. Either way, I hope she got real medical advice from a real doctor at some point.

      Reply ↓
    6. Slow Gin Lizz*

      The update was somewhat encouraging, but that coworker reminds me of some of my friends who don’t like to take medicine and who try to use “natural” remedies to treat their health issues. I also don’t like to push things on people but it’s really hard to see my friends dealing with a lot of things that could probably be treated effectively with medications and instead see them suffer a lot because they don’t want to take medication. I feel for that OP, because it’s a tough situation to be in. And yes, that letter was from quite awhile ago and I sure hope the coworker is doing ok now.

      Reply ↓
      1. Meep*

        I feel this also about friends who ask for specific diet advice instead of going to a dietician or nutritionist for their exact needs. Yes, I can tell my siblings-in-laws that best practice is to eat only the amount of red meat that fits in your palm a day (they think it should be 3x per meal), but neither the bodybuilder on Twitter (who is spreading the nonsense of carnivore diets) nor I know what macros you need.

        I admit I am a bit “crunchy”, though. I think natural remedies (not the ones pushed by snake oil salesmen) have their merits, because humans are extremely intuitive. I could go on rants about how “Type A” personalities actually get their names from Asian beliefs that blood types impact your personality.

        But definitely should be used in conjunction with medicine and science AND make sure it doesn’t interfere with medicine by talking to your doctor!

        Reply ↓
        1. Dust Bunny*

          My experience with humans, especially those who are anxious about their health but also uncomfortable with medicine/doctors, is that they are not extremely intuitive. Or, if they are, their intuition does not tend to lead them in helpful directions.

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    7. Meep*

      I also too hope she sought all the professionals!

      I am glad OP was trying to help, but really, this is a matter for a personalized doctor, not “diet” (hate that word) advice from friends and coworkers.

      Reply ↓
    8. Sloanicota*

      This letter sounds like someone who just knows enough to be dangerous. I wouldn’t use someone’s self-reported, self-tested number on the same scale as properly performed medical tests; it’s comparing apples to a child’s drawing of an apple.

      Reply ↓
      1. fhqwhgads*

        It’s weird too… the coworker suspected something was wrong enough to direct-pay for a blood test and self-diagnose, but the numbers indicated DANGER WILL ROBINSON, but LW got the impression CW didn’t know that? And CW avoids doctors. And test strips are too expensive. But the blood test wasn’t? It reads like everyone in the letter simultaneously knows too much and not enough. Like, normally someone self-diagnoses and the concern is they’re not a doctor and they’ve got it wrong and are overlooking real possibilities. In this case they self-diagnosed the correct condition but missed the severity? And LW who isn’t a dr either seems aware of the severity but not aware of a whole bunch of other things that may or may not be relevant but definitely aren’t their business. The whole thing is weird.

        Reply ↓
        1. JP*

          I think it’s a fraught letter in general because there’s such a stigma around type 2 diabetes. A lot of people view it as a moral failing and that mentality emboldens them to cross boundaries that they wouldn’t otherwise cross with other medical conditions. Or offer opinions and advice that they really aren’t qualified to be providing.

          I do feel for the coworker in the story, though. I get severe anxiety around going to see physicians due to some bad experiences in the past. I have a good one now that I really like, but I still struggle with simple things like checkups.

          Reply ↓
          1. Sloanicota*

            I didn’t like the follow up either, where it seemed clear that OP was watching and judging everything the coworker ate.

            Reply ↓
            1. Lana Kane*

              As a type 2 diabetic I noticed that as well. Managing diabetes is not just down to diet and exercise. If it were, I wouldn’t be on meds as well. And, sometimes the right meds can put you in a good enough place to not need to eat super-strictly.

              On a personal level I want to hear absolutely zero “helpful suggestions” from anyone who isn’t also diabetic. There is a lot of judgment and misinfirmation out there, and everyone seems to think that diabetes is easy to fix if only the person would “eat right” – whatever that means, because foods that might affect my blood sugar may not affect someone else’s.

              Reply ↓
            2. Goldfeesh*

              Does no one believe the LWs anymore? She said that she hadn’t/won’t be saying anything to the coworker and keeping her mouth shut. What makes you think she’s being a terrible person when she was decent enough to send in one update (which updates are specifically requested on this site)?

              Reply ↓
    9. Huttj*

      Heck, I tend to joke that I’m pretty sure when they tested me a year and a half ago my 11.7 set off klaxons in the back room.

      Now it’s down to 6.5-ish mostly with medication (though I have been making diet and exercise adjustments at the same time, focusing on sustainability)

      Reply ↓
  5. T1D*

    As another diabetic, the update to #3 makes me grit my teeth – stop monitoring her food! Stop making this something you spend work hours thinking about! I think this is a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing (you know her A1C is high, but nothing else about her treatment plan) and frankly eating or not eating fast food has very little to do with her blood sugar outcomes. “Maybe she’s eating their salad.” Uuuuurgh.

    Reply ↓
      2. Mid*

        But all the rest of it is deeply irrelevant and even the soda is no one’s business but the person consuming it. Don’t monitor other people’s food. Don’t comment on their food. It does not matter if the coworker is dry scooping powdered sugar 5x a day, it’s still none of the LW’s business and they need to stop paying so much attention to what their coworker eats.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tea Monk*

          True. I wouldn’t comment unless I knew someone put straight poison in it. ( not sugar, cyanide). I hate it when I’m eating literally pasta salad and someone says Im being healthy or something

          Reply ↓
      3. Guacamole Bob*

        The letter said it was diet soda! I know that there’s a lot of disagreement about whether fake sugar is okay in large quantities, but it shouldn’t impact the colleague’s blood sugar.

        Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      What drives nuts about update were the references to fast food soda cups. A treat for me is McDonalds Diet Coke. It doesn’t affect my blood sugar and people with diabetes are allowed to eat food and drink that didn’t grow in a garden. Stop monitoring.

      Reply ↓
      1. Learn ALL the things*

        And I know the LW said they live in a region where sweet tea is possible, but I’ve traveled to places where that’s the case and still found some pretty good unsweetened iced teas in fast food places. In fact, sometimes on my way to work I get an iced tea in a drive thru and don’t order any food at all. I hope the LW was eventually able to stop monitoring and stressing about her coworker’s food choices.

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          1. Sir Nose d'Voidoffunk*

            I do love the concept of the impossible sweet tea, though. They said this level of added sugar couldn’t be accomplished!

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            1. Falling Diphthong*

              I have relatives in the deep south, and associate sweet tea with getting barbecue there.

              Until the trip where I first got it in a fast food place right after the airport. Man. I think it was corn syrup that allowed the super saturation? I couldn’t look at sweet tea for several more trips.

              Someone accepted the challenge, is what I’m saying.

              Reply ↓
              1. Clisby*

                I’m from (and still live in) the deep South, and I associate sweet tea with “drink you have with food.” That being said, it’s not hard to find unsweetened tea here. I like it sweetened, but not to level most restaurants would have, so I just order unsweetened.

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              2. FashionablyEvil*

                No, it’s simple syrup (boiling water and sugar). At the restaurant I worked at, it was whole pitchers of sugar mixed with water from a hot water dispenser for a big urn of tea. SO. MUCH. SUGAR.

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              3. Tybalt's Cat*

                I’m in the deep south and the vast majority of restaurants make unbearably sweet sweet tea. On the rare occasions that I order it in a restaurant, I get half sweet half unsweet. But this is one of those things that is definitely better to just make yourself.

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              4. MigraineMonth*

                My college roommate from Georgia used to miss sweet tea; I didn’t really understand, because the cafeteria had sweetened iced tea, and she could just add more sugar, right?

                Then I tried actual sweet tea and learned that holy shit, that is not “sweetened iced tea”, and that it is impossible to dissolve that much sugar in tea if the water isn’t boiling.

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    4. HonorBox*

      I’m also diabetic.

      I don’t take as much umbrage with the food monitoring. Yes, the LW doesn’t have all of the details. But I can see that knowing ‘something’ can make you concerned, especially when the initial instinct of this coworker was to treat the self-diagnosis with their own research. A friend just had a heart procedure and I know he’s talked to his doctor about quitting smoking as part of the ongoing treatment. But if he slips out of the event we’re going to attend together on Saturday to grab a cigarette, I’ll be a bit concerned.

      I just hope that the coworker saw a doctor, got specific treatment and the LW is worried for nothing, because you’re right… with the right treatment the coworker could do just fine with whatever she’s eating.

      Reply ↓
      1. Orora*

        If the co-worker is also a fat person (I am fat — it’s a description, not a perjorative.) they may have very good reasons to avoid doctors. Medical fatphobia is rampant and devastating. The “doctor in another state” could very well be a practitioner they trust not to reduce them to a number on a scale.

        Please stop looking at what your co-worker is eating. You don’t know if they used to have three 2 liters of soda a day but now they are down to one 2 liter. Is that perfect? No. But that could be a huge step for them. You are not their doctor. You’ve expressed your concern, now butt out unless asked.

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    5. JP*

      Yes, that bothered me as well. Also, all the calculations and assumptions made off of a self test at home? I think LW really overstepped.

      Reply ↓
    6. Ivy*

      Are you kidding? She doesn’t want her coworker to DIE. It would be inhuman to shrug and mind her own business. Best case scenario the numbers are inaccurate, but if not, coworker’s life is in imminent danger.

      Reply ↓
      1. Academia*

        About the Happy Hour socializing: I once went with a few friends to an after-work Happy Hour at a trendy brewpub and my immediate supervisor was there drinking with the grad student who they supervised on paper (and I supervised/trained in reality). Awkward!

        Reply ↓
      2. Carol the happy*

        I had to drive a coworker to the ER once, because she was just lucid enough to refuse an ambulance when she spiralled out of control with her blood sugar.

        She is now on dialysis, but lost 3 fingers and toes on her remaining foot. One kidney had to be removed, and the other one failed completely in a year, but her sugar levels aren’t stable enough to make the transplant list.

        If you think her eating choices weren’t my business, when they impact my life and work, they become something for me to watch for. (She had my name and phone number in her pocket, when she collapsed at a theater. Saying it wasn’t my business wouldn’t have been a realistic option!)

        I’m always pleasantly surprised that she’s still alive. That has impact.

        Reply ↓
      3. Wayward Sun*

        Yes, but you can only help other people if they want to be helped. Going into an anxiety spiral about it doesn’t help them or you.

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    7. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      She wasn’t monitoring the coworker’s food. If you work with someone you are going to see what they eat. She was providing information in an update to us. She was — and this is important — not saying it to coworker.

      People can’t help what they notice. It’s what they dow itht he information that matters. In this case, the OP was keeping her thoughts to herself, except for updating her letter.

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      1. Sunflower*

        Exactly. Unless the OP says something, she *is* minding her own business.

        We all judge everything we see, good or bad. It’s how we react to it that matters.

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      2. Ms. Norbury*

        Exactly, thank you! I also strongly suspect the OP would have barely noticed her coworker’s eating habits if she hadn’t spontaneously shared her health concerns. The main question in the post is about balancing their concern for coworker’s well-being with the understanding that she should mind her own business and not give unsolicited health advice!

        OP was not judging her coworker, just wondering if a person they care about is taking care of a life-threatening health issue. And, as you pointed out, she was keeping her mouth firmly shut.

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      3. Myrin*

        Yeah, even back when the update first came out, I thought the second part was unnecessary and quite weird to include, but I didn’t really get the “monitoring!” accusations back then, either.

        I’ve found that this comment section seems oddly ignorant of people being able to just notice things without any particular effort (and also later remember them) – in fact, I just went back to that comment section and said exactly that almost seven years ago already, and my opinion hasn’t changed: “I would notice basically everything the OP describes in her update just by virtue of working near the coworker/being close-by when she eats/randomly looking over to her. Also, people can generally do with their thoughts what they want and what really matters in the end is what comes out/affects others around them”.

        Again, I continue to be unsure of why OP included that part to begin with – it doesn’t really answer any pressing questions readers had had during the letter’s run, which is most often the case when we get tales of observation like that – and agree that it reads strangely, but as long as she didn’t direct that at the coworker herself and instead just to a bunch of internet randos, I don’t think it was a grave infraction or anything.

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        1. Feral Humanist*

          Yeah, it’s hard not to notice things, and I would think that in this situation, since the LW is aware of the diabetes, it’d be extra hard not to notice it. As long as she doesn’t say anything, I don’t see the harm, and I think the comment section is being pretty extra about it.

          And for the record, I’m fat and would not want my choices commented upon by “concerned” coworkers. But I have zero control over what they notice or what they think in the privacy of their own heads, and frankly, what they think about my food choices is no more my business than my food choices are theirs to comment upon (if that makes sense).

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    8. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Yes, the update to #3 is frustrating and wildly judgmental. Even when the coworker says they’re seeking help, LW immediately jumps to the possibility that the doctor the coworker trusts could be a quack.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Consdering the person hadn’t seen a doctor in years and self-diagnosed, I can see this being a valid concern. But, she didn’t say that TO the coworker. Her update was her internal thoughts on the matter. Which she is entitled to.

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    9. Lucy P*

      I get that it’s annoying when someone is monitoring you or even pushing you into different treatments. I have a boss who is happy to push alternative therapies on anyone who will listen. They can be downright insistent about it and voice their displeasure if you’re not paying attention to them.

      On the other hand, we had a coworker who had high blood pressure and diabetes. They didn’t do the things they needed to do to take care of themselves. The got the diagnoses through a doctor but didn’t continue with any of the treatments. Their breakfast was often a quart of chocolate milk and an oversized honeybun. Their lunches were salt-laden fast foods. We hardly ever said anything about their food choices, unless they were waving their breakfast in our faces to say “look what I’ve got” (they were excited like a kid getting ice cream). Then one night, they went to sleep and didn’t wake up. Almost everyone in the office wished they had sad more when they could have.

      Reply ↓
    10. Someone Online*

      I have a coworker on medical leave currently for diabetes complications. It’s not my place to tell her what to eat, but if I saw her eating in such a way as to damage her health, I would be biting my tongue. At this point really scared for her. (She is also under care of a doctor and unfortunately they are just having trouble stabilizing her blood sugar.)

      Reply ↓
    11. Moose*

      Yeah everything about that update annoyed me. It was not a good update and LW needs to learn to mind their own business.

      Reply ↓
      1. Goldfeesh*

        Alison is the one who requests updates to letters and readers call this the best time of the year, except for this one particular letter writer who should have known better than to send in an update?

        Reply ↓
  6. Apex Mountain*

    I think you can still do the occasional happy hours but just mix it up with other non – happy hour events and yu can get more people participating. One month do the happy hour, next month do a team lunch, next one everyone brings a dessert or something…. Pretty basic

    Reply ↓
    1. DJ Abbott*

      To me it sounds like it’s more about social for the Boss. She likes happy hours, and for some reason isn’t doing it with friends outside of work.
      She should not expect her direct reports to provide her social life. She needs to find a good happy hour situation with people outside of work. Or even better, a variety of social situations.

      Reply ↓
      1. FYI*

        Absolutely this. Go drink with your friends, OP. If co-workers want to socialize after work, that will happen organically, not because the boss “suggests” it. No matter how soft the suggestion, it’s still has a different tone because it’s coming from the boss.
        Speaking for myself, I do NOT want to spend any after-work time with people from work. I want to spend it with friends and family.

        Reply ↓
    2. I should really pick a name*

      I think reduced frequency might improve attendance.

      Also, do it during lunch break instead of after hours (without alcohol). The LW describes spending time together outside of work as a goal, and I think that’s misguided.

      Reply ↓
      1. Clisby*

        Agreed. I have nothing against happy hours with co-workers or personal friends, but before I retired, I would not have wanted to attend them with my work supervisor. That’s what seems kind of strange to me – once a year would be plenty for a supervisor to take people out for drinks.

        Reply ↓
  7. Numbersmouse*

    The update to #3 was bizarre… OP3 wrote in asking for specific wording then used none of it and instead decided to simultaneously act super weird (“when nobody else was around (in our open floor plan), I slipped next to her and whispered that IF she chose to see a doctor, I recommended this one, and I encouraged her to see *a doctor.*”) What the what?

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      OP3 wrote in asking for specific wording then used none of it

      This is pretty common, based on the updates on this site. People write in for advice and then they don’t take it (sometime the situation changes in a way that makes the advice moot, sometimes the OP decides to do nothing, and sometimes the OP decides to do something different from the advice offered).

      In this case, it could be that the OP literally said the words “I encourage you to see *a doctor*” or it could be that that part of the update is paraphrased and the OP said something similar to the suggested script.

      I think the whispering is weird but waiting until the two of them were alone in the open floor plan before raising the issue was respectful of the coworker’s medical privacy.

      Reply ↓
    2. Dust Bunny*

      I would just attribute this to the LW knows the coworker and other circumstances better than we do and would know if our suggestions would work or not.

      Reply ↓
    3. varied*

      What stood out to me is, “She choked up just a tad (I think she was touched!) before she said that she sending her blood work results to a doctor she trusts in another state and I left it at that. I hope the doctor she trusts isn’t a quack…”

      ——
      I mean, why would LW assume even the possibility that the doctor co-worker is seeing is a “quack”? That’s just a rude and unnecessary dig.

      Reply ↓
    2. Jennifer Strange*

      That irked me as well, but at least the letter is from 7 years ago (not to say referring to grown women as “girls/gals” wasn’t still annoying then, but I do at least think there’s been a cultural shift around it since then).

      Reply ↓
    3. Peanut Hamper*

      Rule #7: Don’t nitpick people’s spelling, grammar, or word choices.

      Also, I viewed this as a regionalism, not an attempt to be dismissive of somebody else. This is just the way some people speak English in some parts of the world.

      Reply ↓
    4. No Rudolph*

      Actually a lot of women (myself included) find people who love to throw a spoke in innocuous statements by other women referring to themselves as gals/girls/ladies/you guys to be far more annoying than the thing you’re objecting to. It’s cringe, it’s willfully obtuse to the way people talk in many places, and it’s attention-seeking in bad faith when the person didn’t demean women in any way.

      This objection originated to push back against e.g. male bosses referring to female colleagues as “girls” in an infantilizing way. That situation does not apply to women referring casually to themselves and their friends. When you pop up out of a gopher hole to say, “You’re not going on a Gals’ Trip, you’re going on a WOMEN’S trip”, you sound like a robot. Please everyone, stop doing this.

      Reply ↓
  9. Marion Ravenwood*

    Re: #4 (‘informal chat’), I absolutely agree with Alison’s advice. A couple of months back I interviewed for a contract role at a local authority and they mentioned there was a permanent role in the same team with the same salary etc, and they’d like to invite me back for an ‘informal meeting’ about the permanent job with some other members of the team. I got there and it was basically two mini-interviews – definitely not a casual thing! Thankfully I’d read up on informal interviews on AAM beforehand so had revisited my notes from the first interview and dressed nicely, but if I hadn’t and had just had the info in the email/phone call things could have been very different. (I should also add that I ended up getting the job and start after Christmas!)

    Reply ↓
    1. learnedthehardway*

      Agreeing – if I tell a candidate I want to have a “chat” – it’s because I’m more focused on presenting the opportunity than getting into a deep assessment of their qualifications and fit. BUT – that doesn’t mean I am not paying attention to whether or not the person is qualified and suitable. If having a particular set of skills is important, I’ll roughly gauge whether they are likely to have the skills or not. I’m just not going to get into a deep technical interview with them.

      My purpose in these conversations is to build interest on the part of the candidate, check for whether they are meeting the minimum requirements, ensuring that their compensation expectations are aligned with what is on offer, and covering any logistics details (eg. if the role is on site or hybrid, will they be willing/able to do the commute).

      A more thorough interview MIGHT flow right out of the initial conversation, if I and the candidate have time and mutual interest. Or perhaps a formal interview at another time or with another person will occur.

      So, it makes sense to be prepared. But if the timing doesn’t work for you for a formal interview, it’s fine to say that you only have 15-20 minutes to talk.

      Reply ↓
  10. Clearance Issues*

    lw 1, I understand this is from 2017, but I want to point out that having “happy hours” at places that don’t only have drinking as an option for fun tend to be much better attended. My office leans toward board game “bars” and makers spaces after I (and several others) pushed for some changes (pregnant coworkers, religious exclusions, or plain just don’t feel like alcohol.).
    We went from a maximum of 5 people attending to 15-20 out of 30, with attendees actually rotating of who could attend or not.
    If it must be a drinking centered outing, actual food needs to be available, even if you’re not paying for it.

    Reply ↓
  11. L-squared*

    For the happy hour one, I don’t fully agree. If a manager wants to plan out of work things for subordinates, that is good. If people are choosing not to go, that is on them. I feel like as long as everyone is invited, it’s not fair to then turn around and be like “its not FAAAIIIR that Mary gets more one on one time”. I’m assuming these aren’t planned day of.

    As we have seen on this website, some people will NEVER do these things. And that is their choice. But if other people want to partake, that should be fine too.

    Also, since this was written, our working world has changed. At this point, its also common to maybe have a boss in another city, and any coworkers in that city are getting more one on one time. Should they not talk to them as well because someone else may get jealous?

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      If people are choosing not to go, that is on them.

      For several years I couldn’t go to after-work events because I had childcare responsibilities. It didn’t impact my ability to do my job- I was the top performer in my department. I just happened to have kids (and before someone asks, I had no family support for many reasons). See also- people with difficult commutes, people who are caregivers, people with after work commitments.

      Reply ↓
    2. bamcheeks*

      It’s not about “getting jealous” though– it’s about the impact on the performance of the team. It’s going to be incredibly difficult for LW to not end up in a situation where they feel like they know Mary’s concerns and priorities best, and Mary knows their concerns and priorities best. Sooner or later, there will be a decision around work allocation or which project to prioritise or an interpersonal issue which needs resolving and LW will have to work incredibly hard to make that decision impartially even though they’re spending an extra 2-6 hours a month one-on-one with Mary.

      Now, there are definitely some jobs where “turn up to out of hours activities” IS a key aspect of the role, and it’s inevitable that people who are able and willing to do that will progress faster. Everyone going into that kind of sector knows the deal, and lots of people self-select out accordingly. But if you do that thoughtlessly, or when it’s not a clear requirement of the role, then you’re quite likely to end up seeing people progress for the wrong reasons, such has “has free evenings” rather than “actually the best suited for the job or the leadership”.

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        (Also if you have a mix of remote and in-person employees, yes, you should ABSOLUTELY be thinking about how to make sure they get equitable time with you! That doesn’t mean “never speak to the ones who are in your city”, but it certainly means, “make sure you set aside adequate time for synchronous meetings with the remote ones and have other systems in place to make sure you are equally accessible to them”.)

        Reply ↓
    3. I should really pick a name*

      If most people are choosing not to go, what’s the point in planning them?

      Presumably the goal is team bonding, and this approach isn’t accomplishing that and the LW should consider other options.

      Reply ↓
      1. CommanderBanana*

        ^^ This. Which leads me to think that the goal really isn’t team bonding, because if it was, the LW ought to be looking for team bonding activities that people actually want/can do.

        Reply ↓
    4. YetAnotherAnalyst*

      One good way to think about this is considering other potentially exclusionary work social events: ie, if you regularly invite everyone to a rock-climbing venue so you can go climbing, you’re excluding those who can’t or don’t want to climb.
      Another good way to think about this is thinking about the intended outcomes: if the goal was getting the team to socialize and the result is just getting Mary to socialize, then this isn’t working and it’s time to try something different. If the goal was finding a drinking buddy at work, this was a great success – but that’s not a great goal for a manager to have in the first place.

      Reply ↓
    5. varied*

      But it isn’t fair. Bosses shouldn’t be spending time socializing outside of work with the people whose job performances they evaluate – and that’s exactly why LW is in the wrong here. Also, no one is arguing “choice,” so not sure how that fits in to the discussion.

      As for “…its also common to maybe have a boss in another city, and any coworkers in that city are getting more one on one time.” Please share data for that claim, because I find it really hard to believe that employment spread more these days across time and space is automatic causation for “more one on one time.” I mean, what – more people now want to spend more time with their bosses? Huh?

      Most importantly, as a manager, I GUARANTEE that my four direct reports like me okay, but also like having a break from me when the work day is done. Boundaries. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, and I manage my team accordingly.

      What you describe presents all kinds of opportunity for a toxic and boundary-less –but I digress — workplace.

      And “Should they not talk to them as well because someone else may get jealous?” is such ridiculous hyperbole it’s not worth addressing.

      Reply ↓
    6. iglwif*

      If people are choosing not to go, that is on them.

      That’s true as far as it goes, but it only goes so far. Because people are not making that choice in a vacuum! They have families, commutes, volunteer jobs, household responsibilities, leisure activities, energy levels, health things, financial things, childcare constraints, and any number of other circumstances that have an impact on their decision-making about extra non-work work things, and it’s entirely reasonable to make suggestions like “how about team lunches instead”.

      At this point, its also common to maybe have a boss in another city, and any coworkers in that city are getting more one on one time. Should they not talk to them as well because someone else may get jealous?

      I hope you’re being facetious here, because in fact when you manage a distributed team it is part of your job as a manager to make sure that all your team members are getting (at least approximately) equal time with you — not by avoiding the ones closer to you but by making an extra effort for those farthest away.

      Reply ↓
  12. Falling Diphthong*

    I worry that the perception among the others on the team is that Mary gets special one-on-one time with me because she is my “drinking buddy.”
    This is the perception amongst random bystanders in the comments, and we have no emotional investment as you don’t have any influence over our jobs.

    Reply ↓
  13. DE*

    If multiple people are complaining that you’re working too slowly you might just have to work faster. Sometimes we’re in tough situations but shit still needs to get done. You have to adapt.

    Reply ↓
    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Did you read LW’s second paragraph? They’ve had no training, and they’re doing the work of several people.

      Let’s not blame the victim here.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pescadero*

        No blame – but he might be right.

        There are places that don’t worry about training, then just fire you if you don’t teach yourself quickly enough and move on to the next employee until someone hits.

        In those places – the choices are “figure it out” , “get fired”, or “get a new job”… and if you are in one of those places, it’s good to understand that reality. It isn’t fair – but fair is irrelevant.

        Reply ↓
        1. Resentful Oreos*

          I hope for LW’s sake they are not in one of those kind of “burn and churn” workplaces. Ideally they are not, and if they can go to their manager (first) and HR (if needed) and get training, and speak to their coworkers about setting expectations and giving them some grace because they are new, that will help solve the problem.

          Reply ↓
    2. Jennifer Strange*

      Speaking as someone who was “Katie” at my last position, my team would be ridiculous to expect the person hired into my position to complete my tasks as quickly as I did. I happen to know my successor has a lot of experience in our field, but she still is coming into a new organization and is having to learn some new reports/tasks. That takes time, even if you do have training (which the LW in this case doesn’t have!)

      Reply ↓
    3. Falling Diphthong*

      Sometimes things can’t be faster. Because to meet those deadlines you would need more people, or would need to train the one(s) you have rather than ask them to reinvent the wheel for each task by researching it from scratch.

      It’s why you usually have a training period, which when included properly can be from a few days to a year or so before the employee is fully taking those things off others’ plates.

      Reply ↓
    4. ferrina*

      And this is why LW needs to speak up.

      It’s unrealistic to assume that someone with no training and support can work at the same speed as someone with a ton of experience. This is simply silly- people aren’t interchangeable like that.

      LW can only do what they can do. They can’t magically get more training and experience. Coworkers can’t make them faster by complaining. They can advocate to management to get LW more resources, but if management decides not to act, then this is the way it will be for the time. At that point, it’s LW’s coworkers that may need to adapt.

      Reply ↓
    5. Observer*

      <I.If multiple people are complaining that you’re working too slowly you might just have to work faster

      And exactly *how* is the person supposed to do that without tools or knowledge? Never mind the fact that sometime it just takes *practice* to get speeds higher.

      The mere fact that “multiple people” are complaining about something does not make their complaints valid, nor does it mean that their complaints have to be accommodated. And certainly does not mean that their complaints even *can* be accommodated.

      Reply ↓
      2. Pescadero*

        “And exactly *how* is the person supposed to do that without tools or knowledge? ”

        In certain types of workplaces – that is their problem. Figure it out, or get fired.

        If that means you have to find someone to train you on that software, or take a class, or whatever – not their problem. You do it outside work hours and figure it out, or they replace you with someone who can.

        Reply ↓
        1. Observer*

          In certain types of workplaces – that is their problem. Figure it out, or get fired.

          Yes, in deeply unreasonable ones. And given the situation it’s possible that the LW’s workplace qualifies. On the hand, the higher ups don’t seem to be jumping to that, so maybe they are not *that* unreasonable.

          In either case, this is not a situation where the existence of a bunch of complaints means that the LW is doing something wrong or needs to change. Now it *could* mean that they are in an unreasonable position where they are expected to do the impossible. But that’s a different thing.

          Reply ↓
        2. Falling Diphthong*

          This only applies in workplaces where there are a stream of people eager to volunteer as the next sacrifice. Which exist, but are pretty rare. (See also: You can be a diva if you actually are literally a diva, with a very rare skill set for which there is more demand than you could ever meet. So you can pick and choose, be unreasonable, and burn bridges with abandon.)

          I think it usually looks more like “Marion did the work of three people for peanuts, and then she left and everyone we tried to put into the role for peanuts immediately quit, and because the role was actually business critical, and when we tried to just add it to John’s docket he immediately quit, we had to eventually divide it out between three people and pay them competitive salaries.”

          Reply ↓
      3. Resentful Oreos*

        I know that was something discussed in the letter about the gay dad asked to take down a picture of his baby, the other day: complaints should be listened to, but they do not always have to be *addressed.* Problems arise when a supervisor, or HR, or whoever, thinks every complaint requires action. They don’t. Sometimes “thank you for bringing that to my attention, I’ll look into it” will suffice.

        In this case, complaining won’t make the LW miraculously experienced and trained. If the complaints are addressed, I really hope it’s by getting the LW more training or asking the complainers to please remember that Katie had years of experience and the LW does not.

        Reply ↓
        1. Observer*

          Problems arise when a supervisor, or HR, or whoever, thinks every complaint requires action. They don’t.

          Exactly. In this case, these complaints do NOT need “action” in the form of the LW miraculously doing the impossible. Training and help? Probably.

          Reply ↓
    6. Turquoisecow*

      And then OP makes mistakes? Because I’ve been at a job where I got very little training and was pressured to work faster and then when I did I messed up, and that was worse.

      Unless OP is doing literal life saving work, a bit of extra time is fine in exchange for accuracy or potentially needing to do it twice. I’m sure with time they got faster at it. The coworkers were probably not intending to be mean, but they also likely didn’t understand all the difficulties the OP was facing and how little training they got.

      Reply ↓
    7. Resentful Oreos*

      Not only was the LW thrown in the deep end without any training, they don’t have the advantage of years of experience in the job like “Katie” had. Of course LW is going to be slower. That can’t be helped. This is 100% the company’s problem (for not training LW) and their coworkers’ (for expecting a beginner to perform like a veteran).

      Reply ↓
    8. learnedthehardway*

      You can’t adapt to what you cannot do, if you haven’t been provided the tools and training to do it. That’s unreasonable to expect.

      The OP needs to advocate for herself, while she is learning the role. I would personally be pushing back along the lines of “I am fully aware that my predecessor was really fast at this job. Keep in mind that she had X years of experience in the role, and I’ve been here for Y months, with no training. I am learning on the job, and am doing my best to find the resources and instruction I need, but I’m also doing the work of Z people as our department was downsized. It’s going to take some time for me to get up to speed, and I would appreciate your patience while I am on a steep learning curve.”

      Perhaps be a little more diplomatic, but get the message across. Also, the OP should loop in their manager to let them know that they need training and support. Loop in HR pre-emptively, if the manager does not provide that training and support.

      Reply ↓
  14. Pickles*

    For Happy Hour aficionados keep in mind people with kids may not be able to get away after work without a lot of juggling.

    People who don’t drink are well covered. But do you really want to drink with people reporting to you? After my first conference as a boss, grandboss and great grand boss, I immediately realized I didn’t want to socialize with alcohol with the team. It’s hard enough to be appropriate all the time, a drunk makes that way more challenging. I like having a good time but it’s not fun if I have to be careful. Now I smile and enthusiastically wave as I head back to the room.

    Reply ↓
  15. Spicy Tuna*

    For number 3, I had this issue with my assistant (many jobs ago). I didn’t say a word about her life choices. She was frequently sick and the only things I brought up with her were a) coming in sick and b) attendance – a) I didn’t want her coming in sick; and b) we didn’t have unlimited sick days, so once she reached her limit of sick days, I told her she needed to use vacation days and if she ran out of those, she would need to take unpaid time off. Before it got to that, I left the company so I have no idea how it played out. But her personal choices, as galling as they were to me to observe, were none of my business.

    Reply ↓
  16. Peanut Hamper*

    Nothing but commiseration for #2.

    I kept hearing Jessi Colter singing “I’m Not Lisa” while reading this letter. It’s so unfair to be compared on an ongoing basis to someone who’s no longer there.

    Reply ↓
  17. Happy meal with extra happy*

    The worst of the “anti-socialization/if I don’t like something, I can’t understand how anyone else would” is really out in force in the comment section today.

    Reply ↓
    1. Learn ALL the things*

      It’s not that people are saying the LW can’t have happy hour because we ourselves don’t enjoy happy hour.

      The LW should stop hosting happy hour for her employees because only one employee ever shows up, and spending more social time with one employee than the others will lead to allegations of favoritism which will tank the team’s morale and decrease performance. The LW can host all the happy hours they want with their peers or their out of office friends, but they cannot be seen to be hanging out socially with one of their subordinates.

      Reply ↓
      1. Happy meal with extra happy*

        Well, then it’s a great thing that this is exactly why the OP wrote in, for this gut check, and hopefully they followed the advice.

        Reply ↓
    2. Magdalena*

      Hmm, I think people are pointing out that organizing team building around drinking excludes people who don’t drink and therefore isn’t very friendly / inclusive?
      I like my team but “tough luck if you don’t drink” would make me feel pretty unappreciated.

      Reply ↓
        1. Wayward Sun*

          I’ll be honest — I like happy hours, but I find drunk people incredibly tedious if I’m sober, so if I decided to stop drinking I probably would stop going.

          Reply ↓
    3. Feral Humanist*

      I generally agree with this –– I never fail to be amazed by the number of commenters here who apparently want zero socialization at work, including small talk about how their weekends went, and regard any attempt by their coworkers at socializing to be oppressive –– but in this case I think the issue is that what the manager is doing is clearly not working for the majority of her team. She wants to continue it because she enjoys the socialization, but it’s no longer a team event and it’s at risk of becoming an issue of favoritism if it hasn’t already. I don’t even know that alcohol is the problem, though people are very fixated on that. I think it might be the “after work” part that’s a problem. I like the long lunch suggestion above –– let people do it on work hours and you’ll get much better attendance (obviously that probably puts the kabash on including alcohol, though I have myself had the occasional cheeky lunchtime beer with coworkers and at least once with my boss).

      Reply ↓
      1. Lana Kane*

        That’s where I land – the chosen method of socialization isn’t working because people aren’t coming to it. So clearly, it’s not having the intended effect. Why keep doing something that’s not working? Either drop them, or put in the effort to find something that will have a few more people be able to come.

        Reply ↓
  18. Liane*

    #3:
    PSA: Type 2 diabetes can happen no matter what your body type is, what you’re eating or not, or your exercise habits!

    Last year a close family friend lost his lower leg to undiagnosed Type 2. Over the previous several years, he’d stopped drinking soda, improved his diet in other ways, started walking for exercise, and lost a great deal of weight. His doctor didn’t think he was at risk.
    Then, a blister on his foot got infected, it turned into sepsis, his lower leg was amputated. He would have died if he hadn’t realized something was wrong (hard because I can tell you firsthand sepsis causes terrible brain fog among other nasty symptoms) & called his parents to take him to the ER. I

    Friend was lucky – today he’s got a prosthetic, & his diabetes is so well controlled his sugar is essentially normal.

    Reply ↓
    1. Cloud Wrangler*

      I’ve read that one of the hardest groups to address their Type 2 Diabetes are those who are “thin”. It’s been so connected to being overweight that many people aren’t taking it seriously.

      On the other hand, I have a friend who is a Type 1 Diabetic. She’s a body builder. She gets so many unwelcome lectures about her food. Getting people to understand the difference and her food needs is frustrating for her.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lana Kane*

        I was diagnosed with type 2 in my 30’s. The only reason I was tested for it was because I got gestational diabetes when I was pregnant, so they were keeping an eye on things as it increases your chances of developing type 2. Otherwise I had no symptoms and didn’t fit the “profile” of a type 2 diabetic.

        And I feel for Type 1’s because it’s absolutely not the same thing as Type 2, but people assume any diabetic just has to “eat better”.

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  19. CommanderBanana*

    Mary is getting a rep as your drinking buddy because she is your drinking buddy and she’s getting special attention (by your own admission!) because she is your drinking buddy.

    Reply ↓
  20. Alicent*

    I worked for a guy who called me during business hours at my job to have a “chat” which ended up being a formal phone interview! Thankfully I was alone and able to deal with it right then, but it was a giant red flag about his behavior while I worked for him. He had zero respect for anyone else’s time or what they needed.

    Reply ↓
  21. Resentful Oreos*

    A lot of people are pouncing on the alcohol component in #1 when I think the real issue is *favoritism.* It could be Coffee Hour or Bowling Hour and the issue would still be the favoritism. If you are a *manager*, you can’t just socialize with one or two of your staff members and expect the rest of your team to be OK with it. And, in general, it’s hard for a manager to be friends with people they supervise, especially with just one or two members of their team, because, again, favoritism. If they were peers it would be different.

    Reply ↓
    1. Peanut Hamper*

      The issue is definitely the favoritism but the root cause is that these events are nothing more than happy hours, which means some people will never attend because a) they are not comfortable around alcohol or being around coworkers or a boss who are drinking, and b) they are outside of working hours and some people can’t do that due to prior committments (kids, etc.), and some people won’t do that because work already takes up enough of their time.

      But yep, LW’s goal seems problematic from the git-go. She needs to find friends to socialize with, not her direct reports.

      Reply ↓
  23. fhqwhgads*

    Oy. The diabetic one gives me pause. The letter on its own – I get – seems like genuine concern someone might be about to have serious complications they don’t realize. But the update was so focused on seeing what this person eats, and like, that’s not the point. Sure be concerned someone might be about to go into a coma and not know it and give them the info they need. But it’s so unnecessary to clock their lunches, even when framed as being proud of them for making changes. Like, the original concern was imminent bodily harm. They haven’t experienced that? Great.

    Reply ↓
    1. Resentful Oreos*

      I think LW is just observing, not saying anything to their coworker. You can’t keep people from noticing. It would be out of line for LW to *say something to their coworker* but I don’t think they did.

      Reply ↓
  24. Moose*

    Unnecessary calorie hour?! Yeah I wouldn’t go to those either. Just… idk unless you’re a registered dietician or something, don’t talk about calories at work. That’s an awful name.

    Reply ↓
    1. GirlieePop*

      Yeah, that alone would keep me from going to something like this even though I have no problem with drinking and generally enjoy the occasional happy hour with coworkers. Feels like I would just have to sit around listening to a bunch of people going, “Oh I’m so BAD eating these onion rings” which…is not my idea of fun lol.

      Reply ↓
      1. Moose*

        Oh God yes. Sitting around and listening to people be like “tee hee I am going to be *so bad* and order the chicken wings/dessert/whatever is possibly my least favorite thing on the planet. And I too generally like socializing with co-workers.

        Also like, who the hell assigned the LW arbiter of which calories are necessary and which are unnecessary? What does it even mean to be an “unnecessary calorie?” It’s just awful and more of the moralizing around food that’s everywhere in America and super unhealthy. Hell no. I wouldn’t go to a single one.

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  25. Resentful Oreos*

    Re LW 3 – I don’t think they are *saying* anything to their coworker about soda consumption, etc. They are reporting what they noticed to us. It would indeed be rude and out of line to say to Coworker “Susan, I noticed you are drinking a lot of soda, that can’t be good for you,” but there is no such thing as “thought crime.” If LW is just keeping their observations to themselves and AAM, that’s OK. Most of us notice things. As long as we aren’t butting in and giving our two cents every time someone does something, no harm no foul.

    It’s OK for LW to write in to AAM with their observations.

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    1. Lana Kane*

      I think what rubs me the wrong way is that these observations didn’t necessarily need to be in the letter, and only served to make it seem like the LW was monitoring the coworkers food intake. LW took the time to convert the numbers her coworker shared into an A1C , which I also find inapprppriate enough that if I did it, I wouldn’t be admitting it even to strangers.

      This is a very sore spot for lots of diabetics (myself included) because these observations do end up showing up even if not in a direct “I saw you eating this” kind of way. They show up in how we’re treated and perceived, and how we’re talked about and talked to.

      Getting her coworker to realize how bad its gotten is not on the LW (it’s on a doctor, who actually did tell her how bad its gotten). But all LW’s observations led her to want to talk to her anyway. That’s the thing about observations, no matter how private.

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  26. GirlieePop*

    LW #1’s letter was so interesting to me since they apparently know some people aren’t coming because of the alcohol, but they haven’t changed anything about their happy hours to encourage more people to come. They didn’t say if their events are at a bar, but if people who don’t drink simply aren’t coming, I kind of assume they’re somewhere that features alcohol prominently enough that non-drinkers are just opting out.

    The fact that they don’t say, “I tried doing XYZ differently to make it more inclusive” makes it seem like they’re not really interested in encouraging other people to come. Of course, you can’t make everyone happy, but this pattern of “Only one person comes and I don’t try anything else” makes it seem like they’re not even trying.

    I live in an area where many people are part of a religion that doesn’t drink alcohol, and a lot of members would also probably be pretty uncomfortable in a bar even if they’re not drinking. So if you have an event at a bar, there’s a certain (possibly high) number of people who would just never come and would probably feel excluded by an event like this. A lot of companies I’ve worked at would do things at cafes, restaurants, places like bowling alleys, etc. to avoid this problem.

    If LW wants to keep the events going, why not try doing something at a cafe at lunchtime? At a restaurant for apps after work? Bring in coffee and pastries for a morning meeting?

    Reply ↓

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