update: my awful coworker’s employees want me to help them

by Alison Green on December 31, 2024

Remember the letter-writer whose awful coworker’s employees wanted her to help them? Here’s the update.

First, I decided to back down for a while. Soon after “the flop,” one of John’s better employees cut his losses, left a scathing exit interview, and took a job hundreds of miles away. An even more experienced employee — let’s call him Steve — stayed but started to spiral emotionally. He was obviously depressed and obsessed with the whole situation, and I feared he was going to do something drastic. I kept telling him to “hold on, things can still change” because I saw an opportunity coming up where he could join my team and simply not work for John anymore. (The two had been close friends before all this, so the experience was a deep betrayal for him.)

In the meantime, I convinced my boss to start having regular meetings with me. (Yep.) Even more difficult, I convinced her to start meeting with John and me together so we could all get on the same page. Once I had worked through my disappointment in my boss (months later), I finally asked, “How did that big discussion with John’s team go, anyway?” She explained that it went well, and that she had simply told everyone that John had only joined their project to learn from them and help them – not in capacity as their boss or with the authority to make changes. (Not exactly the story I was told!)

I said, “Oh, wow… So do you think things got better after that?”

She gave an emphatic “Yes, I think so, I haven’t heard of any issues since.” After I just stared for a moment, she asked, “…Why, are you hearing something different? Were there still issues?”

She is an overall calm, cool, and collected person, but when I told her the version of the story I heard, she was visibly shocked and upset. She could not believe they thought they had been scolded and essentially told to shut up. “I guess now they think they can’t look to me for help anymore, right?” I told her yes, she pretty much looks like a lost cause at this point. She started asking how best to correct the issue, and I tried to give an answer, but all I could think was, “What in the world happened in that meeting?”

Some good things have happened since then — I got a promotion, and I really was able to have Steve moved over to work for me, which was a big relief for both of us. However, it’s still pretty hard on him. He seems to watch and report everything John does and I sometimes have to remind him, “You’re doing great work, he has no control over you anymore, you won’t get in trouble.” He also warned me that John is afraid of me and is trying to undermine me, to which I replied, “Good, let him.”

Meanwhile, John is stuck in his same patterns. He moved on to “help” another team, this time in a different department. When John received poor performance feedback from their team lead, John scolded the guy and told him it was actually his fault John wasn’t meeting their standards. John then — again — complained to our boss, who, yes, defended John to that guy’s director! It was almost a historic moment, watching John pit our department against another when usually he at least keeps it internal.

Magically, that department no longer required John’s help after that, yet they now needed both Steve and me on board. As it turns out, they are pretty nice guys and easy to work with. Also, that team lead whom John scolded just got promoted.

One new development before I go: After a year of hard-core ignoring each other outside of our new meetings, John and I have recently learned to collaborate well on some common goals. He even asked me for advice after he saw me handle a difficult situation with an employee. However, in our last meeting, our boss let me in on an issue she and John face: more of his employees have utterly lost trust in management, and no matter what they do, it only gets worse. John openly agreed, adding that his messages to his employees go ignored and he gets accused of micromanaging at every turn. So now, our boss wants “us” to brainstorm ways to repair John’s trust problem. Why I should be brought into this, I am not sure — maybe she thinks it will be a bonding experience, or she is just out of ideas.

So far, staying far away from his employees’ problems has worked better for me, but I wonder if letting nature run its course is the right thing to do. They both seem open to my suggestions this time around, and I do have some ideas that may help de-escalate… But given their track records, I am not comfortable helping John with his interpersonal issues other than referring him to HR.

Thank you for all your help over the years!

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{ 61 comments }

{ 61 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Araxie*

    You are a saint OP! I would be so tempted to reply “OMG, we haven’t tried anything, and it’s not working at all! Whatever can we can do?”

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    1. Artemesia*

      They haven’t tried that obvious approach ‘he adds no value and causes problems wherever he goes, let’s fire his ass’

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    2. NotAnotherManager!*

      Yes! I am flabbergasted at the lamentation that the team has lost faith in management “no matter what they do” when management has done NOTHING about their concerns. I get the sense the boss wants OP to soothe their hurt feelings about being seen as useless because, well, in this context, she IS useless.

      John is the problem. He is consistently the problem across all these situations. Until the boss is willing to do something about John (like never let him supervise people and provide him coaching on his soft skills), nothing will change.

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      1. DJ Abbott*

        That’s always the way. Like when bad employers say no one wants to work anymore. They’ll blame anyone but themselves.

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    3. mel*

      “We haven’t tried anything!” isn’t exactly how I saw it. The LW’s boss purportedly told the team John doesn’t have authority over them, in the meeting. We know that after the meeting, any last scraps of trust between the team and LW’s boss was thoroughly burned away. Given that LW’s boss later defended John again, this time to a department outsider, I’m inclined to think that “John had only joined their project to learn from them and help them–not in capacity as their boss or with the authority to make changes” is really not the message she actually conveyed, and she likely defended/made excuses for John to the team in that meeting, too.

      LW’s boss thought it went swimmingly, and had heard of no issues since. This is at the point where the team is actively hiding problems from the boss, the lack of trust is that bad. It’s more like “We keep making the problem worse, and it’s not getting better! LW, help!”

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  2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

    John is playing a long game. He’s setting you up to be the face of his new and improved image? So when he blows up in his historical fashion, it will be your fault? Hilarious. Stand your ground and explain that outsourcing John’s management is the worst way for him to build trust and rapport. Seriously. Why you? This guy is a waste of time and resources.

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    1. Carys, Lady of Weeds*

      All of this. This whole letter I just kept thinking “there’s no way he’s stopped his bs” and yep, there it is. Manipulation can be tricky to see sometimes but my god this guy just puts it all blatantly out there. Make this Emphatically Not Your Problem, OP.

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    2. Elizabeth West*

      Absolutely. There is NO WAY I’d take on the responsibility of handling John’s issues. Just, no.

      You don’t just have a John problem, OP; your manager is also the problem. She sucks.

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  3. boof*

    Uhg. Have as little to do with John as possible, keep calling out his BS, and make all attempts to refuse your boss attempting to force team you to or whatever the heck is happening there.

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    1. boof*

      Depending on your political capital I suppose you could outright tell John “you act in an untrustworthy manner, try to pit people against each other, undermine big projects, and lie about it. All of these things will make you a bad manager and ultimately work against you; I suggest you stop doing them. It will take a long time to regain trust that is lost and justifiably so, but it is possible, if you act in a trustworthy way for many years.” I doubt that would actually work but I suppose if John eventually sees his attempts at manipulation routinely backfire eventually maybe he’ll realize they’re not fun enough to be worth it; or maybe he’ll just move on to a toxic place that promotes that stuff. Phew.

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    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      The manager is beyond wimpy. After being flat out told that her employees view her as defending John, she goes and does it again. Then she wants OP to fix John’s image rather than manage.

      OP really needs to look at manager and say — they lost trust and aren’t going to get it back as long as you defend John. John is the problem and unless he is gone nothing will change. Because John won’t ever really change.

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  5. Student*

    “So now, our boss wants “us” to brainstorm ways to repair John’s trust problem.”

    The only viable response to this is, “I don’t have any good ideas to help with this, it’s not within the type of management experience I’ve had so far. I’ve heard that Boss’s Boss has a reputation for being really savvy about this kind of management challenge though, so you should ask him/her for advice and input!”

    Seriously, this is a trap, OP. Kick that can over to anyone else. Don’t become the shadow-manager of a problem employee. Don’t let your desire to be seen as competent get in the way of what’s actually good for your own career and your team.

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      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Thirding – OP, you can’t fix this, and letting yourself get sucked in is just buying into the trap. The people who has the power to fix this are:
        – John’s manager, who has demonstrated over and over that she will support John rather than firing him
        – John, who abuses people around him

        The only two fixes available are:
        – John’s manager fires him for being an abusive bully (demonstrably not going to happen), or
        – John has a complete personality transplant and stops abusing people (when pigs fly)

        He is a missing stair. DO NOT sink your time, effort, emotional energy, or work reputation into him or his boss. You are not his manager, you’re his peer. Next time you’re pulled into one of these meetings, I suggest you should get very boring and unhelpful: ‘I don’t know’, ‘huh’, and ‘oh, weird’ on repeat.

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        1. Elizabeth West*

          He’s more than a missing stair — he’s a black hole. Every bit of effort put into him gets sucked down and disappears.

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        2. Perfect summary*

          “and letting yourself get sucked in is just buying into the trap. (…) You are not his manager, you’re his peer.”

          This!!

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      2. Clorinda*

        It’s a trap that’s full of MURDER HORNETS (not even bees). Seriously, back away with the blandest possible version of “I have so much on my plate right now,” and avoid every opportunity of collaborating with John even when he seems reasonable. there is no way this ends well for OP.

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    3. learnedthehardway*

      Agreeing. I think that’s the only advice I would give in the situation – ie. “take this to someone more senior than me because it’s over my pay-grade and experience.”

      Realistically, the only way to fix John’s micromanagement issue is for him to NOT be a manager.

      But putting him into an individual contributor role will just cause his personality to show in other ways, quite likely. I mean, it’s possible that he’s been promoted beyond his ability and would be okay in an individual contributor role, but I suspect he’d still find ways to be obnoxious.

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      1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        Given that in the OP he mentioned getting attitude at home (making OP think he was projecting wife issues onto her)… it’s plainly obvious that he is indeed obnoxious wherever he lands. Except in the boss’s office apparently.

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    4. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I found my people. I wrote the same thing. John’s life is a long game of using people and rising up and away. Wish John the best of luck with his monorail. Tell his boss you’ll be in the front row watching his marching band…but stay the hell away from this mess.

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  7. Rotating Username*

    John’s problems are deep, long-standing, and fundamental issues of both competence and trust.

    Why is John still employed. Why.

    Reply ↓
  8. WellRed*

    I honestly can’t keep track of who’s who among the managers. I did enjoy the part where OP told some manager the team basically sees her as a lost cause.

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    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Pretty sure John and OP report to the same manager, who is the one defending John and asking OP to pretty please rescue her from these problems of her own making.

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      1. Hroethvitnir*

        That is… the core of the letter? The person who has the authority to demand improvement and let him go without it is choosing, repetitively, to bury her head in the sand. It’s not within the LW’s purview.

        Reply ↓
  10. Dawn*

    You’re now in an ideal position to tell John straight up that the problem is entirely him – and personally, I would!

    I mean, I don’t know if it will help, but having been explicitly asked to weigh in, I’d hardly be able to resist telling John, officially and to his face, that the problem is he’s a gaslighting blowhard who thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does.

    But hey, you do you.

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    1. Anon for this*

      OP says they need to collaborate with John on some projects, and has been doing so successfully lately. I don’t think this would do anything to change how John is acting (manipulative, gaslighting, etc. etc.), and think this would deteriorate the relationship with little upside.

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      1. Dawn*

        I did think I clarified that it’s what I would do specifically because I’d want to call John out on his BS. If that wasn’t abundantly clear, I apologize.

        Going along to get along is rarely the best outcome, in my very personal opinion. And actually it sounds like OP should just be leaving this hideously toxic environment.

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        1. mel*

          If that wasn’t abundantly clear, I apologize.

          In fairness to Anon’s interpretation, when you tell the LW “But hey, you do you,” it does convey a certain tone that makes it seem like you think LW is making foolish/suboptimal decisions vs. your ideal hypothetical. Some people do consider a “getting along” solution to be worth it, especially for people they have to be around regularly. LW could leave, which comes with its own drawbacks. There’s always tradeoffs. Easy to judge the “correct” path when you hear about it, much harder to do when you’re living it, have the full scope of information about it, and you know any consequences will impact you professionally, personally, and specifically.

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          1. Agreed*

            I expect managers to value and maintain good interpersonal relationships in order to effectively navigate office politics. This is more than just “getting along” and OP would be indeed badly advised to burn this bridge without need.

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  12. sometimeswhy*

    [insert Admiral Akbar “it’s a trap” meme here]

    If you’re not able to gracefully avoid “brainstorming” to help with John’s “trust problem” try leaning hard on trust as a thing you earn and that only he can earn it for himself. He needs to become trustworthy to fix his trust problem: follow through on his commitments, act with compassion, support to his team, gut check every critical impulse with his supervisor before following through on it, take responsibility for his failings. He should probably also actively seek out and engage in leadership and team building courses. But he can’t force anyone to trust him. All he can do is behave in a trustworthy fashion and eventually earn the trust. That will take a lot, lot longer–like over years–than it took to lose it.

    If he were to ask and genuinely wanted to change, I’d add that repairing his reputation there will take a lot longer than it would to start over somewhere else as an individual contributor.

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    1. Calamity Janine*

      please imagine me posting my comment not but a few minutes after yours, fresh enough i didn’t see it before i also posted, when both of us are quoting Admiral Akbar – i am delighted to have shared that brain cell with you and under jinx rules i may now owe you a soda

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    2. No Rudolph*

      Yeah I have no patience when companies treat “staff not trusting us” as the source of the problem, rather than a natural reaction to someone not being trustworthy. The onus is on YOU to prove trustworthy, not on your underlings to act as though you are!

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      1. MassMatt*

        Yes, I’ve seen this in several dysfunctional places–“The staff doesn’t believe anything we say. How can we get them to believe the current nonsense we are telling them? What is WRONG with them?!”

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  13. Calamity Janine*

    this LW is doing an utterly heroic job of manning the bilge pump, even as John is being defended by upper management who inexplicably think John is right as he runs around cutting holes into the ship’s hull claiming to make it more aerodynamic.

    i have to agree with other commenters when it comes to LW being brought in as a “fixer” for John’s self-sabotage. in the words of the illustrious and fishy Admiral Akbar: it’s a trap! …and honestly if you could fix his issues, LW, by now you would have done so. you’ve already attempted to influence this guy. point out that this approach isn’t likely to work, John is likely to tune you out and dismiss you (per usual i would imagine), and you’re already operating from your own bias. your own bias honestly gained by having to clean up John’s mess, mind you, but it’s going to be something John can point to in order to dismiss whatever you figure out to tell him. (
    …of course i expect he’d find reasons to dismiss anyone’s critique, to the point where if the second coming of Jesus Christ verily stepped down from heav’n to tell unto him Dude You Gotta Stop Being A Little Turboweenie, he would say it’s all a deepfake. but you don’t have to fix John’s terminal turboweenie behavior here. only John can do that, after all. you just gotta illuminate why you should be let off the hook.

    am i saying you might need to gently suggest that a professional third party be called in, and you’ll explain your concerns to the third party but let them and their professional skills handle it? perhaps. am i saying this in part because there are higher ups who might look at the long list of issues to discuss about John, then look at how much it would cost to pay that expert and how that’s an additional line item in the budget, then decide that maybe managing John out is cheaper? p e r h a p s . but i think it has a better chance of working than you being tasked with playing Henry Higgins to John’s nightmare Eliza in the worst production of My Fair Lady the world will ever see.

    (that last metaphor doesn’t quite work but i think i have tortured enough metaphors in this post that my crimes should be stopped instead of encouraged)

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  15. Strive to Excel*

    “In our last meeting, our boss let me in on an issue she and John face: more of his employees have utterly lost trust in management, and no matter what they do, it only gets worse. John openly agreed, adding that his messages to his employees go ignored and he gets accused of micromanaging at every turn.”

    YA THINK?

    Run away from the bananapants wearing bees. John is not a person you can or should collaborate with in the long run. He is not a trustworthy person but is an excellent manipulator. Do not help them in this, do not work with them, get this shunted to someone higher up the food chain than your boss’s boss as quickly as possible.

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    1. Ama*

      I would add that OP’s manager is also not someone OP should trust given that she was told “John’s team thinks your on his side so they don’t trust you to handle him,” and then went and defended him to another team. I worry OP is being set up to fail here – manager clearly wants a magic solution where everyone gets along but she doesn’t have to make John change and that’s not possible.

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  16. Parenthesis Guy*

    It makes sense they would bring you in. You’ve been dealing with John for some time and have made good suggestions to your boss about situations he’s been involved in. Plus, given that the boss has no credibility at this point, you’re one of the few managers that does have credibility.

    Problem is, they want a fix that doesn’t require getting rid of John. That’s not going to happen. I’m going to echo the group of people that say, “It’s a trap!”.

    I’m surprised your boss hasn’t realized that John is a lost cause. Primarily because it’s getting close to the point where your boss is a lost cause also.

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  17. Good job*

    OP has shown great instinct and strategies so far. I applaud her!

    But John is not fresh from school, doing newbie mistakes. He has shown the same concerning behaviour again and again. That’s how he operates and what has proven to be successful for him (look at OP’s boss still defending him!) and I doubt he wants to be “fixed” in any way. OP has to be really careful.

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    1. Adding....*

      “Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer” – Just came back to ask OP to consider that this is what John is doing to her.

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  19. Salty Caramel*

    I see a pattern of John scolding and then people getting promoted. Interesting way to identify valuable talent. Is that why they keep him around?

    Reply ↓
  20. Abogado Avocado*

    OP, you’re terrific. You appear to have thrived in an environment that would drive me batty. And I hope you can find a way to stay far away from any effort to “fix” John because this so not your job. Seems to me that John getting moved from team to team should be a big clue to your clueless manager that John is the problem and he is not easily fixable. Besides, your manager has solutions other than throwing you into the breach: intensive management training classes for John (since his teams consistently have issues with him), management coaching (probably more palatable for your manager), or (my preference) firing the guy. Firing doesn’t seem in the cards for John, but maybe you can convince your manager to invest in management coaching for John so you don’t have to participate in this suicide mission.

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  21. Not Tom, Just Petty*

    12.5% of the total comments reference Admiral Akbar.
    4 “Manipulation”
    2 “not my circus; not my monkeys”
    and one Music Man/Monorail.
    OP, I see a theme.

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  22. Hazel herds cats*

    OP do not go into the basement in your flimsy nightie. John and your manager are engaged in a folie a deux. All you can do is avoid getting sucked into the howling vortex with them. Which, I must say, you’ve been doing admirably.

    Some concrete suggestions along those lines:
    – trust is ultimately trust in oneself, so executive coaching for John could be a suggestion
    – involving you further would only be triangulating; for John to build trust, he has to build open and transparent lines of communication with his reports, peers, etc. He might benefit from support and /or modeling in this endeavor, but that would necessarily have to come from someone external to the dynamic to be effective.

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  23. Despachito*

    “basement in your flimsy nightie.” made me smile :)

    I think the problem here is that John did not change one bit. He is showing his Dr. Jekyll side at the moment but has Mr. Hyde dormant and waiting for his opportunity.

    How can anyone ask OP to rebuild trust in a person who has proved himself untrustworthy so many times is beyond me.

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  24. Moose*

    I have to wonder if John has the ear of or a personal connection to someone high up in the company (even aside from LW’s boss) to have gotten away with this behavior for so long. The constant shuffling of what team he’s on, the boss’s utter inability to see the obvious pattern…Something really stinks here, aside from John’s behavior.

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  25. econobiker*

    Sadly I believe we’ll hear about the OP being figuratively “knifed in the back” by John in the future if the OP doesn’t take heed of the warnings listed here.

    Reply ↓

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