update: should I correct students who address me as Mrs.?

by Alison Green on December 17, 2024

It’s “where are you now?” month at Ask a Manager, and all December I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

There will be more posts than usual this week, so keep checking back throughout the day.

Remember the professor asking whether to correct students who address her as Mrs. (#3 at the link)? Here’s the update.

I am the college professor who wrote to you about my students addressing me using the honorific Mrs., rather than Ms. or Dr.

The comments and suggestions I received in response to my letter gave me the confidence to view the beginning of the fall semester as an important teachable moment. When I introduced myself at the start of class, I clearly explained not only how students should address me (“Dr. Green”) but also how they should NOT address me. In addition, I included with the course materials a blog post explaining how to address women in the workplace.

On the downside, it took less than a week for me to receive my first “Dear Mrs. Green” email. On the upside, now at 11 weeks into the semester, the use of “Dr. Green” has increased significantly, Ms. is used rarely, and Mrs. has almost disappeared.

In addition to my decision to be more clear and direct about my preferences (and provide the blog post), there are two other factors that may have caused the switch from Mrs. Green to Dr. Green. First, my very large class happens to have a great group of students this semester (every class is different and I lucked out this time). Second, I became department chair during the summer, so I may now seem more important.

It will be a few months until I know if my use of the teachable moment will be mentioned in my teaching evaluations. But in any case, I have experienced less annoyance from reading or hearing “Mrs.” this semester and I will definitely continue my crusade with future classes. Also, I believe that I have probably helped some of my students avoid annoying their post-college colleagues, so I feel good about that.

You may also like:
{ 248 comments }

{ 248 comments… read them below }

  1. Dido*

    When I was in college (I was in undergrad just a few years ago, and grad until last year), we all called our professors by their first names or Professor Last Name (yes, even the PhDs wanted to be called Professor). I find it really strange that so many students of the LW’s students are defaulting to using Mrs./Ms. as though they’re still children talking to an authority. I can’t even think of the last time I used those sorts of honorifics in my adult life. I wonder if it’s regional?

    1. Potato Potato*

      It could be. I’m from the American South and we do love our gendered titles here. But also, when I was in college (same location), I also only heard professors called Professor Last Name (or occasionally Professor ShortVersionOfLastName)

      1. run mad; don't faint*

        I’m from the American South too and still live here. My college aged kids who are attending to a smaller state school routinely call their professors by their first names. The one who went to a larger state school used more formal modes of address, I believe.

          1. Bruce*

            Kudos to you for the teachable moment. If you’ve been teaching long enough to become the department chair you must have some interesting stories about student evaluations…

      2. Garpu the Fork*

        This checks. I had a friend from the South who insisted that her child call me “Miss Garpu,” even though I’m far too old to be “Miss” and if she wanted to be formal, it’s “Dr. Fork” or even “Dr. Garpu.” (Heck, I was fine with just my first name, but I was told anything other than “Miss Garpu” was not acceptable.) Ultimately, it’s her kid, and I didn’t want to make an issue of it. but it really didn’t sit right with me, either.

        1. Tai*

          Oh, yes! I hate “Miss Tai,” more than anything. It’s either Tai or Mrs. Leslie. I don’t understand why so many folks don’t simply pay attention to how others would like to be addressed.

      3. Quill*

        We had a couple of profs that were professor firstname due to duplications in the department, ease of spelling, or generally being zany guys.

    2. DrFrog*

      I am a professor at a research university in the mountain west. Women faculty get referred to as Mrs. regularly. However, I rarely hear students refer to male faculty as Mr. Smith. My uni sent a holiday card to me addressed to Mrs. Husband’sFirstName Huband’sLastName. We don’t have the same last name, I am required to have a PhD for my job, and my spouse does not work for the uni. Also note that at least some male faculty were addressed as Dr. It is most certainly a deeply ingrained gender bias issue.

      1. I Have RBF*

        My uni sent a holiday card to me addressed to Mrs. Husband’sFirstName Huband’sLastName.

        Arggh! So very sexist! That literally erases your name and existence!

        I might have been snarky enough to return it with “No such person at this address”, but that’s me being petty.

        1. Worldwalker*

          It’s appropriate.

          It’s bad enough to address a woman by her marital status rather than her professional title, but addressing her by her husband’s name went out generations ago.

          1. Swmbo*

            University lecturer in the UK here and… students address us by first names. So much easier all round. After all, they’re adults (18 and upwards to 65!)

            I don’t know when this changed (I used titles for my uni lecturers and profs in the 80s) or if this is true at every UK university.

        2. Kay*

          I thought I was maybe being petty considering returning the letter from my husband’s parents (we do not have a relationship due to very good reasons, though they claim to want one even though they do things like… this. They are well aware I never changed my name!) with an “undeliverable, no such recipient at this address”. The above is much more offensive than mine!

        3. Zoe Karvounopsina*

          My father once had to restrain my mother after an organisation of which she was a committee member invited Mr and Mrs Father’s Name to an event, despite knowing she’d kept her maiden name.

        4. MsM*

          Genuinely, though, reach out to whoever runs the university’s database. They should be able to correct the preferred salutation.

      2. An Academic*

        “Women faculty get referred to as Mrs. regularly. However, I rarely hear students refer to male faculty as Mr. Smith. ” This is so true. I’ve asked the men, and they’re shocked to hear that I get called “Mrs.”

      4. Lauren*

        I graduated undergrad in 2007 in San Diego and grad school in 2014 in Baltimore, and this is my experience in both locations. Men are either Dr. or Professor, and women are Mrs. Though it never impacted me directly, I always noticed the disparity.

        1. JustaTech*

          Interestingly, I graduated undergrad in 2001 in LA and universally professors were “Prof Lastname”. There were two excpetions: Dr Lastname (guy, PhD) and Prof Firstname (students were so unsuccessful pronouncing his last name that he went by Prof Bob).

          I can’t think of a time I’ve called someone Mrs Lastname in an educational or work context since high school.

    3. Double A*

      Many students have just completed 12 years of calling all their teachers Mrs./Mr. It’s a cultural thing around K12 education.

      (I’m a teacher and wish we didn’t use honorifics, I’m called Mrs. all the time though I prefer Ms. and what I’d really prefer is just my name).

      1. Lucky*

        I remember making the switch from Mrs. to Ms. for my teachers in high school . . . in the 80s. Did that just not stick?

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Double A very specifically said: “I’m called Mrs. all the time though I prefer Ms. and what I’d really prefer is just my name.”

            1. Ann Nonymous*

              Sounds like *anyone* who prefers their name a certain way needs to be prepared to *always* correct people who get it wrong by saying, “Actually, I prefer to be called ‘Dr. Lutkins.'” “Again, that’s ‘Dr. Lutkins.'”

        2. Golden*

          Doesn’t seem like it. My schooling was in the 00s-10s and almost all teachers were Mr. or Mrs. LastName.

          My child’s New England daycare has teachers who go by Mrs. (as their own preference, there are others that use just their first name), so it definitely didn’t die out.

      2. Observer*

        Many students have just completed 12 years of calling all their teachers Mrs./Mr. It’s a cultural thing around K12 education.

        That does not explain the use of Mrs. rather than Ms. And it also doesn’t explain moving on to Dr / Professor for men but not women.

        1. An Academic*

          To be fair, there are some students who don’t understand the implication of “Mrs.” vs. “Dr.” I once asked a student why she addressed another scientist whom she obviously respected very much as “Mrs.” and she replied that she was being respectful. She was shocked and ashamed when I told her that addressing an academic in an academic situation as something other than “Dr.” or “Prof.” implied that you don’t respect their education.

        2. SimonTheGreyWarden*

          It could explain it if they never had an unmarried teacher. I didn’t until I hit high school. Granted, my parents had explained the difference between Mrs. and Ms. long before then so I knew the difference, but it’s possible they just…don’t.

          1. ProfessorTeapots*

            Um, “Ms” isn’t only for unmarried women – it’s meant to be the marriage-neutral form of address (“Miss” is technically the word for unmarried women, although at least in my country that’s increasingly taking on a connotation of ‘younger person’ and is being phased out in the professional workforce, teacher or not).

            1. JustaTech*

              At my all-girls private school (mid-Atlantic, 90’s) teachers were Mr (few) or Ms that was slurred in such a way that it could be heard as Ms or Mrs depending on what that teacher wanted.

              And then there was Miss History – and you had danged well better say it “Miss” and not “Ms” or she’d bite your head off. (She was at least 60 at the time.)

      3. Ellis Bell*

        Can’t you just ask your students to honour your preference? It’s odd that Mrs is their default when it’s longer and harder to say.

      4. ashie*

        I had a well-loved high school teacher whose standard response when students called her “Mrs” instead is “Ms” was “my mother doesn’t work here.” I don’t know if it helped her, but 30 years later I still remember it so it definitely made an impression on me!

      5. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        Nope. I mean, yes they use Mr/Mrs/Ms in K-12, but those students always manage to swap to calling their male professors Dr. That they don’t for women is sexism, plain and simple. (I know women who, as professors, have been called Mrs. X while their male TAs, without a PhD, have been called Dr. Y by the same people.)

      6. Analyst*

        Yet they never call male professors “Mr.”

        I recall talking about this in a mixed gender group. The men had never been called Mr by a student in their memory. All the women had been called Mrs. multiple times…in the last month.

    4. Wayward Sun*

      When in doubt I always default to Prof., and it’s what I used back when I was in college. I’m on a first-name basis with most of the faculty in my department, but I try to use Prof. Lastname if I’m including a student in the thread, to model good behavior.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      Probably some of it is regional, but a lot of it is school-specific. Where I went, 100% of the faculty went by first names with students. It was just how it was there, and it was clear very quickly. Any student using Mr./Ms./Dr./Professor would’ve stuck out in a record-scratch kind of way.

      But that’s not really the issue in the letter anyway. The issue is folks defaulting to one even after being told explicitly not to use it. And if the same students weren’t calling male profs “Mr.”, then we know it’s plain old sexism, not acting like schoolchildren.

    6. CubeFarmer*

      Or it could be that they’re still adjusting from the accepted high-school nomenclature to what’s more common in college. I remember that it took me several weeks to adjust.

      1. Lexi*

        And yet, the male professors say they don’t experience the problem. If it was just an adjustment, it wouldn’t be a woman only problem.

    7. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I was told that Professor is a more prestigious title than Doctor (more people have PhDs than professorships), and you default to the highest available title.

      My college was very casual and we called our professors by their first names, but I would definitely never have pulled our a Mr or Ms in favor of Prof, if the situation came up.

      1. Kevin Sours*

        My school used Professor rather than Doctor but that included the handful of instructors who did not have PhDs. I always attributed to it being a small and somewhat informal environment. Some professors just went by a bare last name and, well, Mike was always Mike.

      2. Nina*

        This is a bit of a cultural one – in the US a professor is almost anyone teaching a class, so many ‘professors’ don’t have doctorates, and in the UK (and countries with a university system modeled after the UK), all professors, with very few exceptions, have doctorates, there is one professor (and a few associate professors) in a department, and everyone else is a lecturer or tutor or adjunct or teaching fellow or research fellow – but you would call all of those ‘Doctor’.

        1. Oolie*

          When I was in college (a LONG time ago), we called any instructors who did not have a PhD “Professor” and any who did “Doctor”. Although it wasn’t unusual to occasionally reverse them, so in the end everyone got called Doctor sometimes and Professor sometimes. The only profs we ever called by their first names were the music and drama faculty. Because, artsy!

      3. amoeba*

        At least in German, that’s the correct form of address – you only use the highest title, and not abbreviated. So, “Dear Prof. Dr. XY” is actually wrong, even though it’s really widely used – it should be “Dear Professor XY”.

        Calling a professor “Dr. XY” would actually come across weird and somewhat disrespectful – that’s the title for those lowly peons like me who actually aren’t professors…

        1. Analyst*

          My experience in Germany was that people absolutely expected you to use Professor Doctor, as Professor is different/lower (I was rather sharply corrected on this by said Prof Dr)

        2. Texan In Exile*

          At the Marquette dental school, my student had an overseeing professor who was also a nun. My student called the professor (who must be in her mid 80s – bad@ss!), “Doctor Sister [lastname.]”

    8. Strive to Excel*

      I had the opposite problem of this where a number of the teachers at the business school I attended insisted that they were not professors, they were lecturers, and that Professor So-And-So was the incorrect address. Maddening!

      1. Arrietty*

        At my university, Professor was a very specific title that only a very few faculty members had. Most lecturers were not professors, some weren’t doctors.

      2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        There is a huge hierarchy in higher ed. I work in a university and someone came in with a student. We get lots of people coming in I asked if they were a professor. He got really snarky with me and said “No, I am an instructor!”

    9. e271828*

      When I was in college also, we addressed all the faculty as Professor. I would never have thought of calling them Mr. or Mrs.! They were professors, not high school teachers.

    10. House On The Rock*

      yeah, it’s deeply weird to me for faculty to ask to be addressed as “Doctor”. At my Seven Sisters college over 30 years ago it was customary to use first names or Mr./Ms for older faculty. Insisting on “Dr.” would be seen as quite pretentious.

      1. Blue Cactus*

        At my seven sisters college, we called everyone Professor unless they gave permission to use first names, which most did. Interesting that there’s so much institutional variability!

    11. UKDancer*

      I think so. I’m in England and we always used first names for everyone at university. I think the idea was that we were all collaborating as equals on the journey of learning – at least that’s what they said. So regardless of title, level of degree etc everyone was on first name terms with the lecturers and professors.

      So the chair of the faculty was known as Jim. The university’s chancellor had a knighthood, extremely prestigious background and was very well known in his field but everyone called him Sonny at his request which was a nickname for his first name. His successor also went by first name to everyone.

      The only exception was the German professor who had 2 doctorates and insisted we called him Professor Dr Dr Schmidt. We tried not to laugh because it sounded so pompous but we did it.

      I studied in Germany as well for my degree and it was a lot more formal. All the professors there had their titles in full and were never called by first name and even some of the tutors below professor who taught seminars tended to be more formal.

      So it’s definitely locational.

    12. amoeba*

      Might also be non-native speakers – it’s extremely, extremely common in German (and I believe the Romanic languages as well). To the extent that you generally even add the honorific in addition to the title – so you don’t address somebody as just “Dr. XY” but as “Herr Dr. XY” or “Frau Dr. XY”. It’s also very common to drop the “Dr./Prof.” and just use “Herr/Frau XY”. Generally, only, errrr, pretty stuck-up or full of themselves people tend to insist on the title in everyday communication, at least in my field. However, last names and “Sie/vous” formal address are still pretty standard, at least for students talking to their teachers/professors!

      Also, like English, we did get rid of our “Miss” equivalents but did keep the “Mrs” and expanded its use to all women. (Frau/Madame). This is used like “Ms” would be in English.

      So, long story short – if it’s non-native speakers, that might explain at least a part of it, because in their native language, this might genuinely be the normal, respectful form of address!

    13. Hyaline*

      Well, many of them did literally leave high school a couple months ago where Mr/Ms/Mrs would be the default. It’s not that perplexing.

    14. metadata minion*

      College students don’t necessarily get a Hi You Are An Adult Now lecture upon graduating high school — if they were children talking to an authority in May, they’re still probably going to feel like children talking to an authority in September.

      If the LW teaches mostly advanced classes I’d be a bit more surprised, but I work at a university library and it’s *very* common for me to either be addressed as “Mrs/Ms” (I’m nonbinary and Mx really hasn’t caught on very widely yet so that’s doubly awkward!) by first-year students or to have them ask me about Mr/Ms/Mrs X. I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens even more with staff than faculty since we don’t have the option to go by Dr. (technically a few of us do, but it would be very unusual not to just go by first name at my institution) and the students have to go straight to first-name basis with someone who is still an authority in many ways.

    15. Jack Straw from Wichita*

      I realize undergrads are unlikely to know/understand this, but not all college instructors are professors. If you’re unsure, Ms. or Mr. kind of is the only acceptable default.

      2. metadata minion*

        I’ve never heard of anyone in academia getting offended at being incorrectly addressed as Dr.

    16. Emotional support capybara (he/him)*

      This past semester my professors were one Professor, one Ms., and one Chef so… definitely varies by individual, lol.

    17. Bast*

      Take from this what you will as this is my experience in the Northeast 10-odd years ago, but the addresses for instructors varied wildly. The 50+ staff tended to prefer to be referred to more formally, but it varied. For example, we had one adjunct (in her 70s) who when addressed as “Professor Smith” by a classmate was told “I’m not a Professor; please call me Mrs. Smith.” I also had plenty of individuals who came into the room and introduced themselves, “My name is Lucille, and I’ll be instructing ABC Class this semester” or something similar. Incidentally, those tended to be the younger instructors. What baffles me is that people are not following this individual’s (clear) instructions on what to call her. To me, this is no different than introducing yourself as Lucille and having people decide to call you Lucy anyway. Introducing yourself as “Dr. Greene” gives someone a pretty clear idea on what you want to be called, so why would you go ahead and just call them whatever you want?

    18. Lurker*

      It might be cultural. I was raised to call all adults, people older than me, and professionals (like teachers) Mr. or Mrs. because that’s what my parents would have done in their home country in southeast Asia (and Mr. or Mrs. are the English equivalent). However, starting in college I use whatever I address people based on what they like to be addressed as (email signatures were very helpful lol)!

  2. mcm*

    I confess to having been very unclear on how to address instructors in college. It was often sort of opaque to me, someone without a ton of knowledge about academia, which of my classes were being taught by grad students and which by professors (never mind getting into full professor vs. assistant professor etc!). You are definitely doing these students a service by making that as explicit as possible and helping them navigate it in the future. I always appreciated professors who would say, “you should call me x,” and it’s a significant additional help for you to take the time to explain WHY. Good for you and thanks for doing this!

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I remember setting up an appointment with the English advisor for my English major. Our department secretary made the appointment, handed me a card with the date and time on it, and said “Dr. Smith prefers to be called ‘Dr. Smith'”.

      I was very thankful to that secretary for the heads-up. It was just one less thing to be nervous about.

    2. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I work in academia and it is so random sometimes. 95% in the main college of the university go by first name, except those that really really do not. The other colleges seem to be pretty random and nobody really cares one way or the other.

      But one of the colleges exclusively goes by Dr. And it is so confusing because they will call each other Jim and Sarah if it is one on one, but always Dr. Smith and Dr. Jones if there is a 3rd person – even if that 3rd person is also one of their peer colleagues that they would use a first name if it was one on one. I am a rogue outsider who keeps forgetting the rules.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      Yeah, it was never made explicit to us at college either and I remember in tutorial, a mature student getting really confused when saying something to the lecturer teaching the class about another lecturer and being like, “Gerry or Mr. Dukes…oh, I don’t know what to call him.” Our lecturer laughed and said “Gerry,” which was the norm at the college, to use first names.

      And yeah, I didn’t always know which of those giving tutorials were grad students and which lecturers all the time either. In 1st year, while all our lectures were given by lecturers, most of our tutorials were taught by grad students. The lecturer who we were talking to in the above paragraph was an exception and she was awfully young, probably in her late 20s, so I assumed her to be a grad student at first and only found out afterwards she had a PhD. Not that the issue ever came up

    4. Jack Straw from Wichita*

      I have three degrees, and I ALWAYS preferred when instructors (because they aren’t all professors, so that’s not a good default either!) told us exactly how to address them. It caused me so much anxiety and time overthinking when I’d send them an email or ask a question.

      It’s like Alison always says, set clear expectations. It helps in nearly every situation!.

      1. mcm*

        yes exactly! they aren’t necessarily all professors, but then if you consider grad students, they aren’t all Drs either, so you do have to have some knowledge of how it all works to know how to address people

        1. Jack Straw from Wichita*

          Yep! And as someone who was an undergrad teaching assistant, I squirmed and always corrected them when students called me “professor”!

    2. Ms. Take*

      Unless the expectation is that we should address anyone with a JD as “doctor” (Dr. Ben Shapiro?), I’ll save that particular honorific for medical doctors, thanks.

        1. Ms. Take*

          Not so. In fact, insisting on being referred to as a doctor can amount to misconduct in certain situations (as in my JD example); in others, it comes across as slightly petty or, with the greatest respect to the First Lady, faintly ridiculous.

          1. Kevin Sours*

            It is not generally customary for whatever reason to refer to holder’s of JDs and doctorates so that has really no bearing on whether or not to refer to the holder of a PhD as a doctor.

            1. Ms. Take*

              That is sort of my point. There’s no logical reason why JDs shouldn’t be referred to as doctors—indeed, many of them have referred to themselves as such over the years, to varying degrees of ridicule—but custom dictates that, for whatever reason, they shouldn’t be. Outside of academia, the same holds true for PhDs and the holders of various other non-medical doctorates. I really don’t mean to pick on Jill Biden, but if her students and colleagues wish to refer to her as Dr. Biden then they should of course be free to do so; the idea that they rest of us should play along (or refer to JDs as “doctors” or “esquires”) is a step too far.

              For those of us of a certain age, Rachel’s reaction to Ross when he refers to himself as Dr. Geller while visiting a hospital summarizes how most of us see the issue.

              1. Kevin Sours*

                “Outside of academia, the same holds true for PhDs and the holders of various other non-medical doctorates.”

                You keep repeating that but it’s not really true. Is there any logic to referring to PhDs as Doctor but not JDs? Not really. But there are a lot of things that are done because that’s the way they are done. It’s pretty common to refer to holders as PhD is a lot of settings — and not specifically academia. More formal social gatherings and in particular those with a more business or professional focus.

                Yes it can come across as a bit pretentious to insist on being styled Dr socially. But you come up against the fact that people are much more likely to use the title of Dr spontaneously for men than woman. It’s still the case that a woman at a gathering of PhDs is going to be assumed to be an assistant or somebody’s wife rather than a peer. It’s a problem. Woman are frequently put in the position of having to either come across as pretentious by insisting that their credentials be recognized or watch them be ignored.

                What you seeing and objecting to is people refusing to let them be ignored.

              2. Happy*

                You really don’t represent “most of us” on this issue. You can think that people with PhDs wanting to be called “doctor” are ridiculous, but that’s a you-thing.

                1. Dr. Ben Carson, B.A., M.D.*

                  Lot of PhDs getting their jimmies rustled on this one. Listen, Mister, it’s never too late to go to medical school.

          2. holy cow*

            This is a bizarrely hostile take. Medical doctors do not occupy some magical higher plane of being than anyone else. “Doctor” as an honorific recognizes a person’s experise in their choosen field, earned by completing a *doctorate* program, be that medical, educational, literature, or anything else. JD have their own specific term of address. It takes nothing away from medical doctors to recognize other people who’ve put the same quantity of effort into a different field.

            About some hypothetical situation on an airplane…all but the biggest doofuses recognize that a medical emergency requires a medical professional, not a PhD or EdD, and wouldn’t be jumping up. And frankly an EMT or nurse is often more useful than an MD in that scenario anyway; unless you’re in some specific fields, those skills don’t get used enough to be fresh.

            1. Tom Clancy fan*

              PhDs should be called “Dr.”

              JDs are an exception because the name of the degree (“juris doctor”) notwithstanding, the JD is not equivalent to a doctorate, but more somewhere in between a master’s degree and a doctorate. The JD does not require a dissertation, most importantly.

              Some law schools offer a “doctor of the science of jurisprudence,” or JSD, which is equivalent to a doctorate and requires a dissertation. Holders of that degree should be addressed as “Dr.”

              1. Pescadero*

                “The JD does not require a dissertation, most importantly.”

                Neither does a PhD. Most do, but not all.

                Most EdD. don’t require a dissertation.

            2. Tom Clancy fan*

              If a flight crew requests the services of a doctor mid-flight, it’s obvious that they’re referring to physicians as a profession, not people holding doctorates.

              It’s like in the Navy, where the rank of “captain” is distinct from the position of “captain” of a ship. You don’t have to have the rank of captain to command a ship.

            3. Zoe Karvounopsina*

              I was about to make a comment about the relative lengths of training to become a doctor/doing your PhD in some places, but was then distracted by remembering the Boston episode of Cabin Pressure.

              ” Yeah, a tunnel’s obviously out of the question, but if you really need to get past him, you could use a couple of drinks trolleys and a stretcher to rig up a rudimentary cantilever bridge. That at least is my professional opinion as a PhD in civil engineering. Or has one of us made some sort of really embarrassing mistake?”

              1. Ed 'Massive Aggression' Teach*

                Don’t mind me, I’m just here for the Cabin Pressure ref <3

                I've occasionally wondered about Carolyn and/or Martin writing in to AAM…

            4. Fíriel*

              Yes – in an emergency situation I’d rather have an ER nurse (or even a family-practice nurse practitioner) than, like, a podiatrist or an anaesthetist. And I would hope that the theoretical nurse or EMT on the plane would volunteer to help despite not being a ‘doctor,’ just as PhD would know not to.

            5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

              In an emergency situation, like on an airplane, don’t they call for a medic? Like do we have a doctor, nurse or medic on board?

          3. metadata minion*

            Why is it not ridiculous for a medical doctor to insist on being called “Doctor” in non-medical situations?

        2. Not That Kind of Doctor*

          Thank You! Many medical professions now require doctorates, those folks earned the degree, they earn the title. Interesting how many lean into the “doctor is for medical doctors”, but don’t bat an eye at referring to their chiropractor, vet, ophthalmologist, or dentist as doctor. For those looking to differentiate between “medical doctor” and the rest of us, the word you are looking for is “physician.” Doctor is the degree, physician, pharmacist, physical therapist etc… is the profession. Everything else is largely about what professions market themselves most effectively.

          1. JustaTech*

            Thank you!
            And if anyone is interested there’s some historical weirdness about why surgeons in the UK go by Mr. (or presumably Ms.) rather than Dr. even though they are obviously physicians and have a doctorate.

      2. snakesnacks*

        First of all, a JD is not considered an earned doctorate. Second of all, Dr. Jill Biden teaches at a college, so her PhD is relevant to her professional credentials.

        1. Ms. Take*

          First of all, a JD is not considered an earned doctorate.

          According to whom? It’s certainly a doctorate (anyone who doubts that is free to look up with the D in JD stands for), and I’m willing to bet that no one who earned a JD regards it as an “unearned” qualification.

          Second of all, Dr. Jill Biden teaches at a college, so her PhD is relevant to her professional credentials.

          This is where I begin to suspect that there’s something other than a deep-seated respect for others people’s honorifics at play here. It’s one thing to use someone’s honorific in a professional setting, but for commenters to continuously refer to someone as “Dr.” in the comment section of a work-related blog smacks of sycophancy. (Just imagine how nauseating it would be if, to use my previous example, every online comment you read referred to Ben Shapiro as Dr. Shapiro or, worse, as Ben Shapiro, Esq.; it’s just bizzare)

          1. Kevin Sours*

            We live in a world where women must be insistent — perhaps even a little petty — to receive the same recognition for their accomplishments. That is context you should reflect on. Your weird insistence on focus JDs and Ben Shapiro despite the fact that Dr Biden holds a PhD and not JD is, frankly, bizarre and suggests you may not be arguing in good faith.

            1. Ms. Take*

              Your weird insistence on focus JDs and Ben Shapiro despite the fact that Dr Biden holds a PhD and not JD is, frankly, bizarre and suggests you may not be arguing in good faith.

              Would you mind explaining what you mean by that? I was simply giving an example of a doctorate that does not, in most people’s minds, entitle its holders to be referred to as “doctors” and illustrating my point by giving an example of someone who most people would absolutely not wish to refer to as such. If you think I have some sinister motive for *checks notes* arguing against the use of inflated honorifics then I’d be very interested to hear what you think it could possibly be?

              1. Kevin Sours*

                It is common to style holders of PhD as Doctor. It is not common to style holders of JDs Doctor. I am suspicious of people arguing against “inflated honorifics” in the context of a woman insisting on a title that is commonly according to men without issue.

                1. Ms. Take*

                  I don’t think anyone, be they male, female, or nonbinary, should expect to be referred to as “doctor” by members of the public unless they hold a medical qualification; if their students and colleagues wish to do so in an academic or professional context, that’s their business. If that clear enough, I doubt there’s anything I can say or do that will make it any clearer.

                3. Ally McBeal*

                  Well, Ms. Take, unfortunately you are wrong. Go read Emily Post or any other etiquette expert if you require advice from an established expert.

                4. eristotle*

                  “I don’t think anyone, be they male, female, or nonbinary, should expect to be referred to as “doctor” by members of the public unless they hold a medical qualification”

                  The word “doctor” has nothing to do with medical qualification. The MD degree started in the 18th century because physicians wanted to have the same academic credentials as PhDs. It was an attempt by physicians to be taken as seriously as Doctors of Philosophy were. Medical doctors were not referred to as “doctors” until then. The idea that MDs are the “real” doctors is incorrect and belittling.

                5. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                  You’re welcome to hold that view. Expressing it in a comment section where people are specifically addressing the frequent scenario of men with PhDs being addressed as “Dr” in the specific context of teaching a class, while women with PhDs in the same situation are addressed as “Mrs”, makes it appear to many that there’s more going on than “but they’re not real doctors”.

              2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

                You mention that only medical doctors should be refered to as doctor and if their students and colleagues can do so if they wish in professional context.

                I would argue that using Dr. Jill Biden in most scenarios is the correct thing to do, based on your own wording. If it is in the news, at a function, etc it is going to be a professional situation because she is the First Lady. You are mentioning her because of her role.

                I would argue that people with PhDs don’t require their personal friends and acquaintances to call them Dr. But if they were the subject of a new article or something, even if it wasn’t anything to do with their PhD, it would be expected to use their title.

          3. Tom Clancy fan*

            I’m willing to bet that no one who earned a JD regards it as an “unearned” qualification.

            I have a JD. See below my (apparently censored) comments on why it is not equivalent to any other kind of doctorate.

            @Ms. Take, if you’re digging yourself into a hole, rule one is “stop digging.”

          4. amoeba*

            Is it a multiple year programme where you do more or less independent scientific research? From what I gathered from Wikipedia, it’s not, so there you go. That’s the definition of a “doctorate”, at least where I’m from. (The name is confusing, yes – however, it was apparently called “Bachelor of Law” until somewhat recently, so…)

      3. Ezra*

        Medical doctors copied it from academic doctors. Why would you restrict your usage to them rather than the original doctors?

          1. MyQueeroAcademia*

            Well established custom is that you convey the earned title where it applies to their field. Not a gray area for the OP but perhaps for First Lady Biden depending on the context. Custom is an interesting metric to invoke when you keep referring to bestowing the Dr. title on JDs, which is not custom.

            1. Ms. Take*

              Custom is an interesting metric to invoke when you keep referring to bestowing the Dr. title on JDs, which is not custom.

              My point is that it is ridiculous in both instances, which is how most people outside of academia see it (see my reference to Friends above).

          2. Worldwalker*

            That is absolutely not a “well-established custom.” When I was in college, Fred Smith who had a PhD was absolutely referred to as Dr. Smith.

            For that matter, one of my high school science teachers was Dr. Hillis — his PhD was in biology. He was not an MD. Note that this was in w70s.

            1. Ellis Bell*

              Some of my teacher colleagues, male and female are doctors and go by Dr. (this is high school, not academia). If 12 and 13 year olds can handle proper titles – even when they aren’t being treated for medical issues – I am not sure why adults are so confused.

              1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

                The thing is no one is really confused. If someone calls out Is there a doctor in the house” in a theater, a Philosophy professor is not going to jump up and say Yes. When a professor of literature walks into their classroom and asks to be called Dr. no one asks what their medical specialty is. When people talk about First Lady Dr. Jill Biden, they understand that she has a PhD in education.

                The ONLY time there is confusion is when someone who has a doctorate in nursing and requests to be called Doctor in a clinical setting. But that is a unique situation and doesn’t typically happen,

            2. JustaTech*

              Seriously!
              Many of my coworkers have PhDs. We do not use anyone’s title or honorifics in day-to-day conversation, but when it’s time to be introduced to the BigWigs or at a conference or something like that, you bet your buttons it’s Dr A and Dr B and Dr C!
              Because that is what their title *is*.
              There is a reason people put the letters of their degree after their name, so you know what kind of doctor (or other degree) they are. MD (physician). DDS (dentist), DVM (veterinarian), PhD (academic degree).

              As you say, there really isn’t any confusion about this.
              JustTech, MPH

          3. Freya*

            Well-established custom meant that my sister, a surgeon, could be referred to as Mr Lastname up until the last couple of years.

              1. Freya*

                Well, it has in these parts – the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons passed a resolution in 2023 to use gender-neutral titles (and yes, before that, they’d willingly call surgeons who happened to be either women or non-binary people by a masculine coded title)

          4. amoeba*

            Errrm, what? I’m a scientist and I can assure you that we consider it a very, very normal thing and not anachronistic at all. (I’ve also never heard of a medical doctor who found that weird, the ones I talked to also considered that very normal!)

          5. Eukomos*

            I work on a college campus and it’s really normal to call people with doctorates “doctor”. Not all of them are professors so they can’t all use “Professor”, but they’re all doctors so that’s the typical default in formal settings. It’s often helpful for the students in particular. Just because you aren’t used to it doesn’t mean it isn’t normal in other workplaces.

        2. Pescadero*

          I would restrict usage from them also.

          Outside a professional setting – I’m not referring to medical doctors as “Doctor” either, and anyone who expected it is… pretentious.

          I don’t even refer to my medical doctor, during a medical appointment as “Doctor”.

      4. HannahS*

        Speaking as a medical doctor, I find that odd. As I understand it, lawyers have never been called “Doctor.” People with PhDs had the title first, then it was taken by medical doctors, so those two categories get called “doctor.” When I was in university, I called my professors “Professor Smith” or “Dr. Smith.” I am addressed as “Dr. S” or “Dr. Hannah” by children. I don’t have a docotorate. I have, weirdly, two undergraduate degrees, one of which entitles me to be called “doctor.”

        1. Kevin Sours*

          To be clear holders of JDs are not typically referred to as Doctor. People who hold PhDs in the law are a different matter.

          1. HannahS*

            Not sure why you’re nitpicking me when I’m agreeing with your point. Very few lawyers have PhDs in law, just like how very few doctors merit the title “professor.”
            Anyway, out of curiosity, would a judge address a lawyer who happened to have a PhD in anything “Dr. Lastname?” I know some lawyers with PhDs in philosophy, but to my knowledge, lawyers in court are addressed as “Mr.” or “Ms.”

        2. allathian*

          Interestingly enough, surgeons in the UK are traditionally not Doctors, instead their honorifics are the standard gendered ones (Mr./Mrs./Miss, or more recently, Ms.). This tradition stems from the fact that the earliest surgeons were barbers, or barber-surgeons.

        3. amoeba*

          Not sure how it is in the US, but here in Europe lawyers can absolutely also earn a doctorate – for doing academic research in law for a while. Like, in addition to their law degree, basically a PhD in law. It’s not needed to work as a lawyer, but quite a few do it anyway (for the prestige, I guess?)

          So then – if you do that, you absolutely do get to call yourself “Dr,” as a lawyer (it’s a Dr. jur.) If you don’t, well, you don’t.
          Same thing for a biologist – if you have only your M. Sc. you’re not a Dr. If you get a PhD, you are.
          And at least in Germany, you don’t actually need the Dr. med. to practise medicine! It’s customary to do it but it’s not a required qualification, and more and more medical practitioners don’t actually have one.

      6. Shellfish Constable*

        Well, it’s what the D in PhD stands for (philosophiae doctor), so it’s not that weird that some people at some institutions would refer to somebody with that degree as Dr. [NAME,]. In fact, the MD derived from the PhD. And at my university — where I am in the humanities but work with folks at the med school with MDs and MD/PhDs — I am referred to as Dr. Constable, so there’s no bad blood or territoriality there.

        Weirdly, the only population who still refer to me as Mrs Constable are undergrads in our business school. {shrug emoji}

      7. Sir Gawain*

        Biden has a Doctor of Education (Ed.D.), not a JD, and Ed.D. are titled doctors, just as holders of a Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) or Doctor of Divinity (DD) would be.

          1. Butterfly Counter*

            I mean, that’s certainly an opinion.

            For me, it would depend on context. Am I looking for someone to tell me about case law or to make a good argument, I might say that the JD was more “intellectual” in that case.

            If I’m looking for someone knowledgeable in research and pedagogy, I’ll take and Ed.D., thank you.

            They involve different skill areas, each with its own wide range of variation of “intellectual” within it. I’ve definitely seen some lawyers who couldn’t think their way out of a paper bag. And some Ph.D.s as well.

            I find it interesting that there seems to be a new anti-intellectualism in our society these days that easily pooh-poohs the work it takes to get a Ph.D. That by methodically studying a subject using the scientific method makes a person less in touch of the truth of reality rather than more in touch. Part of it is that academia rarely deigns to try to communicate with non-academics, which is IMO a major issue. Part of it is just sour grapes. “You think you know more than me with all of the learning and hours of research you’ve done? No you don’t!”

            1. No baskets*

              At least in the humanities, that “work it takes to do a PhD” looks pretty facile. Cass in point is that person Ally Louks on X who bragged about her dissertation in how it’s racist to avoid people with poor hygiene

      8. Freya*

        Fun fact: ‘surgeon’ is a protected title in Australia as of 2023. My sister, the surgeon, is no longer able to be addressed as Mr Lastname by the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons now that they’ve passed a resolution to use gender-neutral titles.

      9. MC*

        Your mind is going to be blown by the fact that in many countries, physicians (the actual title) do not earn a doctorate degree, and that Doctor of Medicine is often a research doctorate just like a PhD. The US is the outlier here. The title “doctor” is given as a professional courtesy but it is frequently an extended bachelor’s or master’s program to become a physician.

        1. amoeba*

          Yup, this. (Although most medical doctors do go on to do a Dr. med. – but you don’t have to and you don’t get it automatically!)

          It’s quite helpful that we have a separate word for “medical doctor” that’s not the same as the title in German, haha

      10. Eukomos*

        That’s just a poor grasp of the English language. It’s the appropriate form of address for MDs, PhDs, and for that matter DFAs and EdDs. We colloquially call physicians “doctor” more often than the others but that’s just a habit of dialect. Interestingly, “doctor” is not the address for JDs, that’s the even more rarely used “esquire”, which I’m not going to sling around on my own but wouldn’t begrudge a JD if they happened to ask for it. It’s no skin off my nose to call people by the titles they’ve earned.

        1. Ms. Take*

          It’s no skin of my nose to call people by the titles they’ve eatned.

          I suppose that’s fair enough—if you’re consistent. I look forward to seeing Ben Carson referred to as Dr. Ben Carson, JD Vance referred to as JD Vance, Esq., and Winston Churchill referred to as the Right Honorable Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, KG, OM, CH, TD, etc. Online commenting is about to become a whole lot more formal…

  4. Seashell*

    I wonder if some (although probably not most) of the problem is an email program making suggestions on what you should say. For example, I use my given name on my personal email, but nearly everyone who knows me calls me by a non-obvious nickname. I have gotten emails back that say “Dear (Given Name)” where I wouldn’t expect the person to even know that name, so I am guessing their email suggested it.

  5. Alex*

    I had a middle school teacher that, every time a kid called her Ms. X, she would instantly respond “Mrs., I’m married” before answering the question lol. It’s completely reasonable to be clear about addressment, and you’d be totally reasonable to remind students when they get it wrong!

    1. DrFrog*

      Although in this case, Ms. is not “incorrect” so much as preference as the point of Ms. is that it applies regardless of marital status. We really need to stop with honorifics, especially in professional situation, that are based on marital status. 1) being married has zero to do with one’s professional duties and 2) male honorifics are independent of marital status.

      1. Heather*

        Not to mention, in some areas, LGBTQ teachers are expected to hide their personal lives from students. Would a woman married to another woman be expected to be addressed as Miss or Ms because of that?

      2. Worldwalker*

        THIS.

        Women should not be addressed based on their availability, which is where the Miss/Mrs distinction came from. It was from before women were doctors (or professors) or pretty much anything else, and their only social value was whether they were available for marriage.

        We really need to leave that in the past.

        1. Analyst*

          Yeah, I’d love to leave that in the past, but we should also address people as they prefer- and plenty of women prefer Mrs.

    2. Double A*

      Ugh, I hate Mrs. so much. My marital status has nothing to do with my job. But I used it for my colleagues who prefer it (I’m a teacher, the only profession where we have to worry about this)

      1. Jenesis*

        Same! And I didn’t change my name when I married either. As I like to tell people, Mrs. Husbandlast is my husband’s mother. Mrs. “Maidenname” is my mother. I’m just Ms. Mylast.

      2. Timothy (TRiG)*

        The idea that Mrs has anything to do with marital status is a fairly modern one. Formerly, it was a title of respect for an adult woman. A head cook, for example, or a housekeeper in a grand house, a hospital matron, any woman in any such role.

          1. Ellis Bell*

            Mistress was simply the form of address towards adult women (it gained a bunch of other connotations, as does every word used to refer to women) and Miss was simply the shortening of it to denote a younger person. Confusingly though, you probably wouldn’t have been considered an adult without marriage, motherhood or some other form of responsibility.

        2. hbc*

          I guess, but it still sounds like it was only bestowed on women who we acknowledge are in charge of a domestic sphere. So you could get to “Mrs” by running a man’s household or a man’s hospital ward. Meanwhile, a whole lot of very respected spinsters got called “Miss.”

        3. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          Congratulations, you’re very smart. What does this have to do with the situation in 2024?

    1. Roland*

      One of my professors did the same during my very first college term. She didn’t mind her first name only, but Mrs was off the table. I found it very helpful as a newbie to college.

      In retrospect, the instructor for my other course that term was probably not technically a professor which is why she just skipped all that and only explained how to pronounce her (first) name. But because she took those 10s to explain that, it was obvious that this was how we should address her.

  7. Princess Tomato in the Salad Kingdom*

    I’m so glad that it became a teachable moment. I imagine that if I tried the same approach, the same outcome would happen for me. I teach online so I often get “Professor.”

  8. Toni Blum*

    So, my husband and I are both professors with doctorates, AND we share the same First and Last name, AND we teach in the same discipline. We have students who go through hoops to differentiate: “Dr. Mrs.” “Dr. Mr.”, “Dr. LastName female” “Dr. LastName male”, …the one with the red hair/black hair… etcetera. When they are addressing us directly, “Dr. LastName” is fine. When they are trying to explain to someone else to whom they wish to speak, well…

    4. Juicebox Hero*

      If you were both the same gender, I think their heads would spin trying to come up with the differentiations XD

  9. Zephy*

    For a good while there it seemed like the late teens/early 20s set had somehow collectively decided that “Mrs.” was the Most Respectful Way to address an adult woman. I base this on interactions with high school and college students circa 2013-2019, who were very clearly trying their hardest to be Polite And Professional when addressing me. They insisted on calling me Mrs. Lastname; I might have gotten a Mrs. Zephy once. I was not married at that time, and I don’t think I corrected anyone because it doesn’t bother me as much as it did this OP. I do think this is starting to change, I don’t get Mrs’d nearly as often anymore, but I am starting to hear “Miss” (with an S) again more, as opposed to Ms. (“mizz,” with a z).

    1. I Have RBF*

      I personally hate “Miss”. To me, “Miss” is a girl under the age of 18.

      What makes me want to explode is some CSR who insists on calling me “Miss GenderedFirstName”. Yes, I have to have it on my DL and accounts, but how about calling me Ms (or Mx) LastName? I’m not a freaking kid, FFS.

      1. Nightengale*

        those same customer service people keep trying to call me Mrs

        I’m a doctor but they don’t necessarily know that
        I would be fine with them defaulting to Ms
        I am fine being called Miss
        I don’t really even mind first name although I wish they didn’t use it in a script every 2 sentences.
        Mrs is inaccurate.

        When I have pointed out that they have no way to know whether or not I am married and thus shouldn’t use Mrs, they tell me this is intended to be respectful.

          1. I Have RBF*

            This.

            My marital status has zero bearing on my account status, or anything else, except when it comes to death and taxes.

          2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            This. Do they want to ACTUALLY be respectful, or do they want to pretend they’re being respectful based on 1950s-era norms?

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Yeah, to be honest, their saying it was “intended to be respectful” would bother me more than their using it in the first place. While I’m sure they don’t (at least consciously) mean it this way, it comes across like, “it’s respectful to assume a woman is married because not being so is something she’d be embarrassed about and probably wouldn’t want mentioned.” It suggests there is something insulting about suggesting a woman might be single, not that calling a woman “Ms.” does imply that.

      2. hugseverycat*

        I’ve worked in lots of call centers and they literally force you to use specific honorifics and refer to you by name at least X number of times per call. What honorific (and whether they use one at all) depends on the company. When I worked for Apple and Netflix we were on a first-name-basis with callers, but for JC Penney it was honorific + last name.

        And yeah, they count how many times you say the customer’s name and if it’s below a particular threshold you can get disciplined. So that’s why they say your name a hundred thousand times.

        1. Nightengale*

          I know they are required to use names, probably based on some neuroscience that people respond positively to hearing their names.

          I wish the requiring people would ask us how we feel and learn that hearing our name over and over inserted into a script does not lead to a positive response as much as irritation

        2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          If someone explicitly tells you they prefer a different honorific, are you required to ignore that?

          1. Pescadero*

            Based on my experience with call centers – going off script is completely unallowed, no matter what the customer wants.

      3. allathian*

        It’s interesting to see how this works in different languages.

        In French, Spanish, and German (and I suspect in Italian and Portuguese) they agree with you. The diminutive forms Mademoiselle, Señorita, and Fräulein are pretty exclusively reserved for minors. When I was an exchange student in France in my early 20s, I was addressed as Madame in stores, etc. Señora was the default in stores a couple years later when I worked as an intern in Spain (my coworkers and manager used my first name and I used theirs).

  10. Happily Retired*

    When I started at my university, my professors never told the class as a whole what to call them. All their emails are signed with their first names only, up to and including the Chancellor, which makes me think it’s email policy, not preference. Finally I had one who said, “ You can call me First Name, or Dr or Professor First Name, or Dr or Professor Last Name.” So I know what to call him. The rest I just call Ummm.

    One of the benefits of etiquette in the Triassic, when I grew up, is that the person with the perceived higher social status was supposed to take the initiative in offering to use their first name or alternative. This was still awkward in cases like younger physician/ older female patient, but at least it was a start.

    Kudos to professors who take the initiative, especially those who are female-presenting and explain the gender imbalances in titles!

  11. Disappointed Australien*

    When I was at university students defaulted to Dr, to the ongoing irritation of one “Mr not Dr dammit” lecturer who was annoyed about his lack of PhD.

    There’s a (now Emeritus) Professor of Economics in Australia who once posted on his blog something like “you may refer to me as Professor Quiggin, Dr Quiggin, John Quiggin but not John or Quiggs”. I of course requested to refer to him as Q or Prof Q after the Bond movies :)

    Maybe it’s just me but I know a non-trivial number of “Dr and Mr” couples. It’s not a wildly unusual thing any more. And a “Professor and Mr” couple, plus a “Professor and Ms” couple who are both women. Although they might be “Professor and Dr”. I’m going to have to ask.

  12. Meanprof*

    Oohh, I’d be tempted to take any email addressed to Mrs to the next lecture or tutorial and use it as a teaching moment!!! Put it up in the screen, and get some discussion going about why someone would choose to go completely against the instructions provided.
    Too mean? Nah – I bet the student concerned manages to follow other instructions adequately.

    1. Kay*

      Here I thought telling them that anyone addressing them by “Mrs.” would get an “F” was too mean. :-)

  13. felis*

    Perspective from a non-native speaker: in German we default to using the title traditionally used for married women “Frau” for all women now. The title traditionally used for unmarried women “Fräulein” is a diminutive and is widely considered as infantilizing and demeaning and has fallen mostly out of use. So before I learned, that Ms is the neutral title in English, I would never have addressed someone as Ms, because it would have felt rude like using “Fräulein” and would definitely have defaulted to using “Mrs”. I know better know, but many native German speakers (and I think the case is similar in some other languages, like French and Spanish) probably don’t. If there are any non-native speaking students in those classes, they might not have known and you’re helping them out big time by providing both guidance and explanation.

    1. Disappointed Australien*

      It’s possibly slightly more complex, Ms is a recent(ish) coining to avoid the distinction between Miss and Mrs. So every female-presenting person can be Ms and you don’t have to guess based on age or marital status or whatever other system the local people use to change between those titles.

      Less often, but depending on context Mrs could be somewhat offensive to a non-PhD because it assumes the existence of an owning male spouse. To a PhD it could thus be doubly offensive.

      Much better to go with Professor Doktor Lastname :)

      2. amoeba*

        I think for us Germans it’s also a problem that we don’t really do soft consonants at the end of words – we have a beautiful thing called “Auslautverhärtung” that makes “Ms” sound indistinguishable from “Miss” when said in a German accent!

    3. allathian*

      English is the only language I know of that has a gendered title for women that doesn’t specify marital status and is recent enough not to have done so in the past.

      I’m in Finland, and we’ve pretty much done away with honorifics and gendered titles altogether. The only exceptions are holders of high political offices (presidents, their spouses, prime ministers and cabinet ministers, and military personnel). Kids routinely address their teachers by their first name, or in some cases a nickname chosen by the teacher. Young children tend to address the parents of their friend’s as “Friend’s mom/dad” unless told otherwise.

    4. metadata minion*

      The equivalent of Fraulein in English would be “Miss” (Ms isn’t an abbreviation of it), and it’s similarly insulting unless you’re being humorously formal to a small child.

    5. Susan Calvin*

      Bonus problem, even if one is aware of the usage of Ms. and can correctly apply it in written communication, getting a native German speaker to a point where they can reliably *pronounce* it in a way that’s sufficiently distinct from Miss, is not a trivial matter!

    6. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      This particular situation is about Mrs vs Dr, though, not Mrs vs Ms, so this doesn’t excuse the student behavior.

      (Again, unless you have been or know a lot of women with PhDs who work in academia, you have NO IDEA how often this happens. And it happens to women far, FAR more often than to men.)

  14. Miss Me Not*

    A question for you all: What do you do when a student knows better seems to be deliberately flouting your expressed preference in a way that seems like a power play? Recently, a student has been asking for unreasonable special treatment (e.g., late work accepted weeks after other students had submitted it, going against the syllabus), claiming special circumstances that remain vague. Our liberal arts college recently prohibited faculty from asking for medical notes; we’re supposed to accept student claims at face value and accommodate them. (When I offered to help him enroll with the disability center, he begged off.) Although I have clearly stated examples in the syllabus as to how to address me (I don’t belabor the point), and I was trying to accommodate some of his requests, he’s moved from calling me “Professor Y” to calling me by my first name exclusively and repeatedly, sometimes in the same email. My instinct is he’s trying to get a rise out of me and to leave it alone, especially since the quarter is over soon. Another (also male) student, who seems a bit irked that his grade is lower than desired, has persisted in calling me “Miss. Y.” What do you all think?

    1. meanprof*

      See, that’s when I’d bring it up in front of the whole class, make it like a lecture or review because “There are some of your number who are having difficulties with this concept”. Be really clear that this is an excellent example of misogyny (many won’t have had it spelled out to them previously) and provide a whole lecture on using the names and definitions that the person concerned asks you to. I’m in a slightly similar situation, and it feels slightly akin to using a deadname when someone has repeatedly been told my current name. If you are feeling really irked, you could call them out in front of the class, check that they are now absolutely clear. In a liberal arts college they might have to face the disgust of their peers – and that might be the strongest lever.

    2. Mrs Doe is my MIL*

      I find these students infuriating but ultimately they do seem to be either oblivious or (as seems to be the case here) trying to get a reaction.

      Like others, I now give a spiel at the start of a class about appropriate forms of address that is mostly equivalent to “you can call me Dr Doe, Professor Doe, or Jane. Please do not call me Mrs Doe as that’s my mother in law.” If they call me Mrs Doe in person I sometimes give some side eye and they recalibrate.

      I’ve found the international students I work with have the most trouble adapting when they’ve come from a culture very cognizant of titles. It’s usually the entitled students who can’t be bothered to follow directions.

      (I’m also one who has handed mail to my spouse when it’s addressed to Mrs John Doe or even Mr and Mrs John Doe.

      1. Jackalope*

        I grew up in the US but spent a few years living in a country with a LOT more formality in their language. There were at least six ways to say “you” depending mostly on the nature of your relationship with the other person, and multiple ways to say “he” or “she”, also depending on the level of formality. When I moved back to the US I had a hard time using anything but sir or ma’am with strangers or supervisors. I’ve moved on for the most part but I still feel more comfortable with that verbal formality. And the people in the country where I was living who also learned English had a really hard time with the casual way we greet and address each other.

    3. lapidary*

      Oops, commenting fail. Meant my comment to be a reply to you, copying below:

      Could certainly be a power play, or an attempt to force you to correct him, marking you as petty or unreasonable. I find that in most cases, the students who want extra special (unreasonable) treatment from me tend to call me “Professor Lastname” when I’ve told them explicitly at the beginning of the semester and in my syllabus that they can call me Firstname. I second not engaging, although it sounds infuriating.

    4. Honoria Lucasta*

      Following the example of my first department chair, I have created a form email that I copy and paste if students don’t send a reasonably professional email (the number of students who think it’s ok to email a one-sentence question without any other information!):
      “Dear student, An email to a professor is a kind of professional message and should at the least include a salutation (“Dear X”, or even “Hello”) and a signature. Please resend your email with professional formatting in order to receive an answer. ”

      When one student’s second try started “Dear Honoria”, I made the first paragraph of my reply “Please don’t address me or your other professors by first name unless you’ve been explicitly told to. Ms. Lucasta, Dr. Lucasta, or Professor Lucasta are all acceptable, though.” and then I answered her question.

      In a situation like yours, I would not answer the question and would just keep pasting a form reply “In a professional context, you should respect the form of address requested by your correspondent. Please resend your email addressed to “Dr. Lucasta” to receive a reply” until he fixed it.

    5. KatieP*

      (Assuming this is a US-based college, acknowledging that AAM has a wonderfully broad audience) To my knowledge the ADA only requires a reasonable accommodation. Submitting work through alternate means, a little schedule flexibility, perhaps even an alternate assignment might be reasonable accommodations. Turning the work in weeks late doesn’t seem like a reasonable accommodation. Under ideal conditions, a student service team (like your disability center) would be managing accommodations for students and communicating with faculty regarding the accommodations needed while protecting the student’s medical information.

      In the professional world, that would be a tough/impossible accommodation to make.

      I’m really sorry you’re in this position. It’s also not doing either of these students any favors. They’re going to get a rude shock when their first bosses don’t take kindly to their antics, and their careers get set-back.

      1. Butterfly Counter*

        I had a student like this.

        It started out okay and I was happy to help her with accommodations. But it became an every-week thing. At about mid-semester, I laid down the law with her. She had to turn in her assignments on time every week or I would start taking off. If she needed specific accommodations, she had to go to disability services to make them official because it’s not fair to other students to get counted off for late work and not her. And really, if she was going through as much as she said (multiple deaths in the family, car with laptop getting stolen, getting pneumonia), she should withdraw from this semester and take the class again when her life was calmer. I even gave her the step-by-step process to withdraw so that she didn’t have to pay tuition for the semester.

        She refused and thought she could do it her way and still get an A.

        She failed my class and the other class she was taking in my department for the same reasons. And she was legit surprised.

        Anyway, I don’t remember how she addressed me. Honestly, I was probably just happy she didn’t call me whatever titles and words that she probably called me in her head.

    6. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      This is edging on student code of conduct rules. Does the University have a code of ethics or handbook for students.
      I would certainly bring this up to your chair or dean. Or possibly even student life.
      I also would also check what you should do in a situation where a student is claiming they need special circumstances so often. yes I can see not requiring a doctors note for a cold or something but also students need to be held accountable and it sounds like this student is taking advantage of the policy.

  15. lapidary*

    Could certainly be a power play, or an attempt to force you to correct him, marking you as petty or unreasonable. I find that in most cases, the students who want extra special (unreasonable) treatment from me tend to call me “Professor Lastname” when I’ve told them explicitly at the beginning of the semester and in my syllabus that they can call me Firstname. I second not engaging, although it sounds infuriating.

      1. Ms. Take*

        I should probably leave it at that, but I’ll go further and say that if it were Joe Biden, rather than Jill Biden, who held an EdD and insisted on being referred to as “doctor” then he’d have been laughed out of public life years ago. The idea that someone with an EdD should be referred to as a doctor would strike most ordinary people outside of academia and without an idealogical ax to grind as totally absurd.

        1. Dr. Greene*

          My letter was about interacting in academia, how to best prepare students for the workplace, and the role gender plays in addressing people in both places. It wasn’t about public life or pretending to know what “ordinary people” (?) find absurd. Like everyone, students can choose the extent to which they show anyone respect. But what the discussion of my initial letter helped me see is that they need to learn about ways they can show respect, or unintentionally show disrespect, before they need to make that choice in the workplace. Like the commenters above, I have also had students that seek to intentionally show disrespect. I also choose not to engage with those students.

          1. Catagorical*

            Your communication has been very clear. Ms Take seems to be expressing strongly held tangentially related content. (As neutrally as I can put it.)

        2. Arizonan*

          My elementary school principal had an EdD and the whole town called him Dr. Firstname, not just the students, and this wasn’t a terribly academic town either—this was rural Arizona. I don’t think you’re as in-tune with the rest of the country as you think you are.

          1. Dil*

            Not everyone lives and works in the United States. I work as an administrator at a small British university and have never heard anyone, including the American academics, referred to by anything other than their firstname.

          2. Pescadero*

            My experience is the opposite –

            I had multiple principals with PhD’s, a Superintendent with a PhD, and a high school teacher with a PhD.

            None of them were called Dr.

            My kids went to a school in the most educated city in the USA (30% over 25 have advanced degrees) – they had multiple teachers, principals, and administrators with PhD and EdD degrees.

            None of them other than the Superintendent were called Dr.

            1. Butterfly Counter*

              I have the opposite of the opposite of that experience!

              I had a teacher in high school with an M.A. He was regularly called “Dr. Smith” by the majority of his students despite not having a Ph.D. Just the masters was enough! I think it was the fact he was a good ol’ boy in a town that loved good ol’ boys that decided to give value to his one advanced degree (unusual in my Southern suburb) and thus deserved him a new title. This same town would absolutely find it pretentious that Jill Biden was referred to as “Dr.”

        3. Irish Teacher.*

          I honestly don’t think that’s true. It clearly strikes you as totally absurd and that is fine; you are entitled to your opinion, but you seem to be in a small minority on that and you keep suggesting that most people agree with you when you can’t really speak for anybody but yourself.

          It’s not that everybody who disagrees with you has “an ideological ax to grind.” It’s just that they have a different opinion from you and it seemed like you overestimated how many people shared your opinion. This may be regional. The forms of address used are very much dependent on region, so it is possible you live in an area or are in a social group where most people agree with you, but that is not true more widely.

          1. Pescadero*

            “This may be regional. ”

            Absolutely.

            Formality is very much seen as pretentious in the Midwest. The Midwest culturally is very anti-formality and anti-heirarchy.

            1. Bread Crimes*

              I teach at a charter school in the Midwest, and every single person with a doctorate in this school uses the Dr. as part of their title. Including me. Including people who are not teachers.

              Turns out even the Midwest isn’t a monolith. Who knew

            2. Butterfly Counter*

              I’m in the midwest and this semester 3 of my 200 students called me “Mrs.” rather than “Dr.” (which is my actual title). And only one called me by my first name. This is pretty usual in my 10+ years of teaching.

              1. Pescadero*

                There is definitely some variability.

                I work at an R1 university in the Big Ten (that I also attended Oh so long ago)…. and no one – not students, not staff – regularly refer to faculty by “Dr.”

                Our previous Department Chair insisted folks call him “Dr.” instead of “Professor” in front of students – and he was WIDELY mocked for it by staff.

          2. Ms. Take*

            I think that might be it. Without giving away too much information, I have attended colleges on opposite sides of the country and currently work in an academic institution and have never heard titles used by anyone other than nervous students. I get the impression that a disproportionate number of commenters live and work in cities such as New York and in other well-educated, affluent areas where norms many differ, which is fair enough.

            I stand by everything I’ve said as an accurate reflection of my lived experience, but obviously we all bring something different to the table. I really didn’t think it would be that controversial—the difference between PhDs and “real” doctors has been a source of humor throughout my life (“Is there a doctor on the plane?”), and I still strongly suspect that this blog is not an accurate reflection of public opinion, but there we have it.

        4. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          Neither you nor I know how Dr. Biden styles herself in ordinary life. We know she uses her title in her professional role as a college professor. Some news outlets do as well (not all – the Washington Post does not, nor do they use Dr. to refer to people with PhDs, but the New York Times does for both.)

          1. Ms. Take*

            You’re still referring to her as a doctor in the comment section of a work-related blog. Doesn’t that strike you as just a little bit strange? In what other context would you refer to someone in an anonymous comment using his or her honorific? Would you refer to Ben Carson as Dr. Carson in the comment section of an online artcle? Be honest.

            1. JustaTech*

              So I should never refer to Dr Neil DeGrass Tyson as Dr Tyson? Or Dr Feynman or Dr Sagan?
              I should never refer to my former PI as Dr Lastname? Even though he insisted? In a room full of cancer researchers I should find out who is an MD and call them Dr Lastname and then everyone else is Mr or Mrs? I can tell you right now that would go over like a lead balloon.
              Your fixation on someone using some of the First Lady’s titles correctly is weird.

        1. Pescadero*

          The post I’m replying to was:

          “Would you say the same if it was Joe Biden who held the Ed.D. and not Jill?”

  17. Shellfish Constable*

    Thank you for sharing this update! I just wrapped a 100ish student course in which I stated at the outset I was Dr. Constable…only to receive multiple student emails every week addressed to Mrs Constable (not Ms., and sometimes just “Dear Shellfish…”). This is made extra awkward by the fact that my husband works at our same institution and has almost never been referred to as Mr. or his first name and while knowing that zero of my male colleagues have ever received emails addressed to Mr (I asked — they were “surprised!”). And, yes, my husband and I have different last names but have many students in common who know we are married. Weirdly, and as I posted above, several of the students who persist with Mrs are in our business school, so now I’m honestly wondering if it’s just something they’re being taught there? Like, “Always be respectful in emails and address people by an honorific such as Mr or Mrs”??? I’ll have to ask some folks I know over there; the plot thickens.

    Anyway, my point was that this post makes me think I should be more assertive about sharing this info with students at the beginning of the academic year…or at least tell them to call anyone teaching one of their classes “Professor” until they’re told otherwise!

  18. Observer*

    Also, I believe that I have probably helped some of my students avoid annoying their post-college colleagues, so I feel good about that.

    I am sure that you have, and that is a good thing. For them and their future coworkers.

  19. Ms. Young and Dumb*

    As a somewhat young person, I just want to say that it probably isn’t a respect thing. We just weren’t around for all of the cultural context that makes Ms., Miss, and Mrs. different. At least for me, I defaulted to “Mrs.” because it sounded fancier, so I figured if I used it it would make me more respectful… oh, how wrong I was! Only when I went to live with my grandmother for the summer and called her “Mrs. ___”, did she have a happily unmarried laugh at my expense and explain the difference.

    I should say, it was baffling to me that the title I had been using may have had someone believe that I was making a comment on their marital status… I legitimately thought my grandmother was messing with me! Maybe it’s a sign of the success of feminism, or the failure of our education system to teach history, but the idea that a woman’s worth or title should have anything to do with whether she was married or not seemed so out of left field. (I was 16. Maybe I was just a dummy.)

    My point is, while I definitely think being called Ms., Miss, or Mrs. anything (as opposed to Dr. or Professor) is a sexism and respect issue, I would put my money on the differentiation between Ms. and Mrs. just being a “young people ignorance” thing. It’s awesome that the students are being taught the difference – they’re gonna need to know! I just wouldn’t worry about this signaling a return to conservatism in the youth, or anything like that: I think the answer is somewhat the opposite (and a least, a lot more banal).

    1. Dr. Greene*

      I love the fact that your grandmother has a “happily unmarried laugh” and the that she takes time to have discussions with her obviously thoughtful grandchild!

      Thank you for sharing your somewhat young person perspective – it’s really helpful.

  20. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

    Once upon a time when people used the phone, I picked up a call coming on my female boss’s line. The woman on the other end asked me, “Is Boss married?” And I replied, “I don’t see how that’s any of your business,” and hung up. A few minutes later the phone rang again and a now very flustered caller explained she had to mail something to Boss (I did say once upon a time) and wanted to know if she should address it to Mrs. or Miss. I told her to address it to Ms. My now scandalized caller said, “Oh I couldn’t do that!” Oy. We’re in NYC, caller was in South Carolina. Mrs. was for married women, Miss for unmarried women, and Ms. for those awful feminists and she wouldn’t want to imply that about Boss. I told her the entire city of New York defaulted to Ms. unless told otherwise. She was amazed. But she addressed the letter to Ms. Boss.

  23. Seripanther*

    First day of undergraduate Shakespeare class, a tiny woman in an enormous hat stood at the front of the classroom and announced, “I am PROFESSOR Siegfried or DOCTOR Siegfried. I am Mrs., Miss, or Ms. I am Brandie only to graduate students. I do not like teaching at the undergraduate level so I will run this course as a graduate seminar. You still have time to drop.”

    I became one of her grad students and still never dared call her Brandie. She was Dr. Siegfried all the way to her funeral, which I had the honor of attending. Would have jumped in front of a bus on that woman’s command.

    You get to expect the respect you are due. It is a service to those under your leadership. She taught me that.

  24. EngineerRN*

    Thank you for doing this!

    My mom earned a PhD in nursing, and taught in that field for decades. She was Dr. Smith, unless in a hospital setting (where no one but MDs can use the title Dr., to avoid confusion), where she was Professor Smith or just Professor. She’d taught at several different institutions in different regional areas of the US right up to the end of 2019, and didn’t have issues correcting students. She also viewed it as an important step in teaching students professional norms they might need for the work place.

  25. Juicebox Hero*

    Back in high school my world history teacher was Miz T. The Miz was important because if you called her Mrs, or softened it into what she perceived as Miss, you’d get an ear-bending. She was a diehard feminist and an even more diehard individualist. So we all made very sure to pronounce it Miz. Out of earshot we referred to her as The Miz or Les Miz.

    She was memorable as a teacher, too. The metal trash can in her classroom had a huge dent in the side due to her punting it across the room to illustrate the treatment of Serbia during WWI. The diamond in her ring was cracked right through as a result of her smacking her hand against the blackboard to demonstrate Blitzkrieg. It was a class you didn’t dare doze off in.

    I graduated from high school 30 years ago and if I mention the Miz to anyone +/- 10 years my age, it all comes flooding back.

  26. Jack Straw from Wichita*

    As a former secondary teacher who loathed the use of “Mrs. Straw” even when married and constantly reminded students it was sexist and outdated–I applaud you! They need to hear things like this in safe, low stakes situations vs. lose opportunities because no one bothered to explain things to them.

    As an aside, I recently completed a post-bacc degree and had a Black, male professor who explained why it was important we call him “Dr. Smith” instead of using his first name (as many of my post-bacc profs did). It serves as an example of the accomplishments for others in his community, and TBH he worked really hard to get it, so why wouldn’t we use it?

  27. On Fire*

    First day of class, a youngish woman professor said something like, “If you need to email me, be sure to include a salutation, the section number, a detailed message, and your name and student ID number. My title is Dr. — I owe too much in student loans to not get called Dr.” I immediately wondered if she had already dealt with “Hey, FirstName,” or was trying to head it off at the pass.

  28. Tradd*

    The LW didn’t mention if she had foreign students. I’ve found in the business world that Mr (for men) First Name and Mrs/Miss/Ma’am First Name are commonly used by those I deal with who are in Asia, especially India and the Philippines.

    1. Best Cat Toys*

      Interesting. I’ve seen similar comments before about academic settings, but I’ve often gotten “Professor” or sometimes “Teacher” (both with no last name) from Chinese students. I was aware that this was a term of respect, so it didn’t bother me, but I’m also in a field where first name is pretty common.

      Trying to think about Indian students, but I haven’t taught somewhere with a large Indian student population since grad school (and most of those students had high school experience prepping them for college in the US). I did once have a Vietnamese student use Mme.

  29. chocolate lover*

    I work at a large private university in the northeastern US, but students come from all over the country (and world.) There’s still a chunk of students who are not comfortable calling me by my first name, even though I tell them it’s ok.

    I’ve always lived in this area and was not at all comfortable calling my professors, in undergrad or grad, by their first names. As far as I was concerned, they were still an authority since they had power over my education and grades.

  30. Bike Walk Barb*

    You’ve helped every woman in your classes who’s going to be working in a male-dominated profession by modeling that you own your professional status and should be addressed appropriately. Thank you for that.

Comments are closed.