updates: my coworker says he’s my boss but he’s not, and more

by Alison Green on December 31, 2024

It’s “where are you now?” month at Ask a Manager, and all December I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past. Here are five updates from past letter-writers.

1. How do I reject a qualified former coworker? (#4 at the link)

I have a brief update with a bit of a twist. Some of the comments from other senior managers gave me more confidence to stand up to the HR Director one last time. I leaned into the concerns being voiced to me from the other engineers and really made it clear that we will probably lose 3 people to fill this one position. We got into a bit of a heated discussion to the point where he became really frustrated and left the office. He called me later that afternoon and basically said he understood where I was coming from but the direction to interview all qualified applicants came down from the COO and if I had an issue with it I needed to settle it with her. He also implied, in a very out of character, non-HRy type of way, that the company wants to avoid a discrimination lawsuit because this particular applicant was in his late 50s and originally from the middle east … so yeah.

I set up a meeting with the COO and explained everything. She immediately understood and stated “there was no way we are interviewing him — I will talk to HR about these type of situations going forward.” So that was a win.

Now the twist! There is a vice president position that opened two weeks ago that reports directly to the CEO and is a big step for my career. The CEO himself strongly encouraged me to apply, which is great. About a week later I got a call from the former employee and I let it go to voicemail: “Hi, I understand not bringing me in to interview for the engineer position, frankly I knew it was way beneath my qualifications but I am very frustrated at my current company. Luckily I just saw the VP position, which would be perfect for me so I am putting in for that, look forward to working with you again in the future!”

I’ll let you know how that goes!

2. Is my manager overreacting to small mistakes? (#2 at the link)

I am still in the same role at the same company. After I completed the performance improvement plan without any additional issues, the original manager I wrote in about is now resigned to working with me. I asked HR about transferring to another department but was told that isn’t possible due to my area of expertise. I am still keeping an eye out for other job opportunities, and I volunteered for projects with other departments to gain additional skills.

Over the past 6 months, I began treatment for adult diagnosed ADHD. I think part of the original frustration my manager had with the minor mistakes I was making is that I genuinely didn’t notice them. Since I have begun therapy and taking medication, I have been able to triple check documents before they go out. If this manager hadn’t been so particular, I might not have sought treatment. In my previous individual contributor role, I was able to meet deadlines and complete work without issues, so I didn’t initially consider that I could have ADHD. (It doesn’t help that as a child I was a quiet female student who fidgeted constantly, chewed my fingernails, and doodled all over my notebooks, but got good grades in school and was good at pretending to pay attention.) When I started this new corporate job, the inattentive ADHD symptoms made paying attention in business meetings and filling out detailed spreadsheets feel like torture.

I know this job is not a good fit, but it pays well and offers much needed flexibility to allow me to handle child and elder care responsibilities. I plan to move into a nonprofit role that better aligns with my strengths and interests next year (when my youngest kiddo starts college). In the meantime, I began volunteering after work at a local nonprofit to remind me that there is more to life than spreadsheets.

Thank you for all your help and advice!

3. My coworker keeps saying he’s my boss … he’s not

Well, I applied to many jobs after that. It was exhausting. I was getting few responses. Finally, I was so stressed due to applying to jobs, working this nuts job, and my home situation, I took a break from applying about two months ago.

At work, the guy who was doing this to me was assigned more sales projects and I barely talked to him. Things settled down. I only “saw” him in Microsoft Teams meetings. Although, the owner includes this guy on just about every meeting he has now. The guy was eventually basically put in charge of sales (for being a marketing analyst! he pulled stats and talked about them at meetings and was praised as if he had caused the good sales stats! It’s ridiculous!) My direct supervisor, the VP who refused to fire him or even talk to him about his behavior, has lately been making comments like, “(The owner) has talked often about his goal of having 500 employees in India (where he is from). He used Covid as an excuse to fire half the U.S. team. I could see him wanting to cut down the U.S. team more and hiring more in India.” So I am worried I am going to lose my job at this point. Then the other day she complimented my work and said she was really impressed with me and that I brought value to the company. These conflicting statements have been happening in meetings since summer. I honestly do not know what to think. I know I cannot advance in this job, I know the owner is cheap and has minimized increases the last few years, and my job might even be in jeopardy. This is important because…

My long distance boyfriend of 11 years and I bought a house together here. We moved in together. It was awful. I tried for a year to make it work, but two weeks ago, my children and I abruptly packed up and move out in ONE day. We are adjusting to our new normal. Obviously, paying rent (which is twice as much as it was before I moved in with my boyfriend) is imperative, so I need this job. I am also freelancing on the side to make ends meet. I am working a lot and don’t really feel I have time to look for another job? I felt that in order to increase my income, I needed to continue my education. I am starting online grad school in January, studying library science, history, and archiving. I am excited for that! But it will take probably 3-5 years to complete. This job is now more bearable since the guy basically doesn’t call me for chats anymore (he used to call almost daily), and I work pretty much alone without much interference. If I can maintain this job, which has excellent flexibility working from home as a single mom, I will stay until I finish grad school and then look for a proper librarian job. I look for and apply to new jobs casually. I have a lot of newsletters and email lists I belong to that send me lists of jobs, so I am sort of passively applying to new jobs.

4. Should a boss attend the funeral for an employee’s family member?

I asked if it was appropriate for a boss to attend the funeral for an employee’s family member.

I really focused on your line about “if you know the person well enough to know they’d appreciate seeing you there, go ahead.” What I did not mention at the time for anonymity’s sake was that I was a new transfer to the team. I wanted to come off strong as a supportive manager, but you were right that I didn’t know her well enough to know if she’d like it or not. The comments had a pretty even split of those who thought it was a lovely gesture and those who would be horrified. I didn’t want to risk my employee being in the “horrified” camp, so I decided against going to the (public) funeral. I ensured that a card and flowers were sent, told her to take off as much time as she wanted, and told her direct reports that while their boss was on bereavement they were not to contact her with any work-related questions whatsoever; send those to me and I’ll help figure it out.

Another way this showed up was at the former branch I worked at, colleagues would regularly gather a collection for the grieving – “here’s something to take care of a dinner so you don’t have to cook, or to do something nice for yourself, whatever you would like.” At THIS branch when I asked about it, they looked at me as if I was suggesting that we cover the cost of the funeral itself. This was very much a “you’ve got to know your office’s culture” situation, which you’ve said many times in other letters! I was grateful for your advice and the input of the commentariat.

5. Should we give extra sick days to employees who can’t work from home? (first update)

First, I was so tickled to be in your favorite posts of 2023 list. Truly one of the best compliments I’ve gotten (I would add it to my resume if I thought you would approve of such a thing!).

Unfortunately, my request has not gone far, which is a signal of other issues within the company. But, I continue to bring the idea up whenever possible and advocate for fairer policies for our non-remote staff in general. Some commenters correctly pointed out that this is a symptom of a bigger issue with our overall PTO policy that affects both remote and in-office people. We simply don’t have enough PTO to be full humans outside of work, which is harder on 100% in-person teammates because they have less flexibility out of the gate. Crossing my fingers that our crazy turnover issues will help leadership understand the extent of this. In the meantime I’ll keep fighting the good fight, and appreciate all the support from you and the commentariat! Hopefully next year I’ll send in a more positive update.

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{ 113 comments }

{ 113 comments… read them below }

  1. Southern Gentleman*

    #4 is shocking to me. I didn’t read the original letter, but wow. How can the boss showing respect by attending the funeral be a negative? And what kind of monsters would balk at contributing meals or other goods to help a grieving family? I live in the south, and this kind of thing is normal and expected. I don’t understand the modern workplace sometimes. And, by the way, that’s an office culture I wouldn’t want to be a part of.

    1. Mostly Managing*

      Depending on your relationship with your boss, having them at the funeral could be awkward. People are often crying, upset, and not at their professional best.
      There have been people I’ve worked with who I would NOT want to see at a funeral where I was one of the chief mourners.
      There have also been people I’ve worked with who I would have been touched that they bothered to come.
      It really does depend on the relationship.

      A lot of people work hard to maintain a boundary between work life and personal life. Attending life events outside of work (funeral, wedding, etc) blurs the boundary in ways not everyone is ok with.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      I think it really is cultural. I posted a reply that has gone to moderation about how yeah, in Ireland, this would be expected too. But funerals differ by culture and if somebody is from a culture where funerals are more private, I can see how it could seem intrusive.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      Unless they were also personal friends, I would be very upset if a client / manager showed up at any of my family members’ funerals.

      I can think of one client (who is also a personal friend), who I would be okay with being there.

      Other clients – even the ones with whom I have very good relationships and consider mentors – I would not want them to see me grieving. It was bad enough having to explain that I would not be available the week my mother died. The last thing I would have wanted to see is their faces in the funeral service.

    4. doreen*

      A lot of culture is very specific in terms of background , location and so on. I live in the Northeast and in my culture, coworkers do not contribute meals or cash to a grieving family under ordinary circumstances. Family and close friends might , but not coworkers unless there were special circumstances. That wouldn’t necessarily be part of my co-workers cultures.

      I think that we assume too often that everyone’s culture is the same and don’t consider that they might have done something differently because that’s their culture. I once didn’t go to a viewing of a co-worker’s parent which was immediately before the funeral at the church. I would not have been able to stay for the funeral so I didn’t attend the viewing. I found out two things later – that people were mad at me and it apparently would have been OK to go to the viewing and leave before the funeral. But I only found that out later, when I was told people were mad and I explained why I didn’t attend. In my culture, we don’t have viewings at the church right before funeral. There’s usually a time given to meet at the funeral home – but it just isn’t done to go to the funeral home and not proceed to the funeral.

    5. JB (not in Houston)*

      Really? I am also from the south, and I would absolutely not want to see my boss at a loved one’s funeral. Him sending flowers? Great. Showing up to an event where I’m feeling extra vulnerable and not capable of being “on”? No way. Absolutely not. And I know I’m not alone in that. Can you really not imagine that some people might not feel the way that you do on this?

      1. RussianInTexas*

        I’ve been in the workplace for 25 years now and not once went to a coworker’s relative’s funeral or viewing, or anything of the sort. Just like I don’t usually go to coworker’s children’s birthdays, christenings, quinceaneras, parents’ anniversaries, etc.
        Unless the coworker is also a friend, this is out of bounds.

        1. Happy meal with extra happy*

          Out of bounds…for you. I’ve been to the funerals for parents of two coworkers, and it was very much welcomed and appreciated. For both, I was very friendly with them at work, but we definitely weren’t friends outside of work.

          1. RussianInTexas*

            Yes, for me, of coworkers I am not friends with, showed up at my parent’s funeral, it would be very out of bounds.
            I probably wouldn’t even tell most people why I am out anyway. I don’t need comments and sorries.
            Now, thinking of it, I have no idea if most of my coworkers have parents alive or not, or widowers, or whatever. I don’t know marital situation of many, nor I know about their children.

        2. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

          The difference between a funeral and all the other listed events is that those are generally invite-only and a funeral is open to the public. It’s not a requirement or gauche to not go to a coworker’s family’s funeral at any job I’ve worked, but it since moving to office work and being more of a “grown up” (it would have been weird in my 20’s, for example), it hasn’t been discouraged and everyone whose family members’ funerals I’ve gone to have expressed appreciation. I tend to go to viewings, open to the public, and not religious functions. I wouldn’t go to a mass or service and I certainly wouldn’t go to a private family event. We currently do flowers for close relatives of coworkers if they pass, but no money collection or food. My boss does have a current policy of attending viewings for a least a little bit to show support for his employees, but he’s also of the no religious service, no private event variety.

          Recently, I went to a coworker’s mother’s layout and my coworker was extremely touched- I was the only non-family member that showed up just for her. (No friends attended on her behalf.) She’s a lovely, gregarious woman with a wonderful personality, so it seems incredible that no one that wasn’t related to her would show up to support her, but there you go.

          1. RussianInTexas*

            Not all funerals are open to public. The last two I went very much weren’t. Nor the death notices were posted anywhere.
            But in all workplaces I worked at, people weren’t really revealing much about passing of relatives. You may hear something like “oh, Kathy is out of the office, her father passed away”, and that’s that.

            1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

              I’m in the Midwest and the concept of an invite-only funeral has only recently been introduced (within the past five to six years, I think). If it’s a private funeral/invite-only, that’s a different story- if I didn’t have an invite to one, I wouldn’t go. At least here, if there’s a funeral, it’s usually open to the public. The obit/death notice thing is a bit trickier because of the death of newspapers, but if an obit/death notice is published, it’s normally on legacy.com and there is the expectation that anyone could show up. From personal experience, it seems that private funerals are held that way not because the public could show up, but because unwanted family members could attend if they knew where it was being held.

              Maybe it’s just because I’ve tended to work for small companies, but it’s usually well known amongst the staff when a coworker is out for a funeral, especially if it’s a close relative (parent, spouse, child).

              1. RussianInTexas*

                I work for a small family company and I still don’t know nor really want to know much. I have coworkers I work with closely on the daily basis and I know things about them. Some things.
                A coworker lost her husband last month, and I only know because the admin sent an e-mail to everyone. I work from home, she works in the office, I talk to her maybe once a month. I wouldn’t know otherwise.

              2. Elizabeth West*

                Where I grew up in the literal middle of nowhere, the funeral homes are in the center of town, and they have signs out front that state what funeral is happening that week and when. Obviously my boss couldn’t show up at my dad’s funeral because I didn’t have a job at the time. If I’d been working in that town, however, they could have because Dad’s face was right out there on the main drag.

                My last OldState job would announce employee bereavements on the intranet page. This was a mid-sized company but based in the same very rural area near where I grew up, so its culture reflected that.

          2. AMH*

            In my corner of new england a funeral WOULD be a mass or a service; the wake tends to be less personal and that’s where you would see coworkers, acquaintances etc. show up. It wouldn’t be super out of bounds for a boss to show up at a wake, but I agree with others that I would prefer not — they’re exhausting enough as a mourner, I don’t need to add performance to that. (Of course, I would just prefer never to go to a wake again; I know some people find comfort in them but I find them so hard and much prefer the quiet mourning of a service. People are different!)

              1. AMH*

                I’m with you; unless I was close with a coworker I wouldn’t personally feel comfortable attending a wake or a funeral. But I did have some at my dad’s wake, and it didn’t feel hugely wrong, just — I wasn’t at my best, I remember little of that wake, and it made no positive difference to me that they were there. I understand and appreciate that it came from a good place of wanting to comfort, though.

                1. Elizabeth West*

                  I remember being invited to the viewing for a coworker’s daughter who had died at a fairly young age (early 20s, I think). I had never met the deceased, but the coworker is the one who actually invited us — I never would have gone if that hadn’t been the case.

              2. Timothy (TRiG)*

                It’s funny how different cultures are. “I wouldn’t want to intrude on someone’s grief.” It makes perfect sense as a sentiment, and yet it’s completely alien to my experience.

                When my granny died, the undertaker collected her body from the hospital and brought it to their offices, where they dressed and prepared the body. We, the close family, went there for a private moment the next afternoon, and then they brought the coffin to the house. That evening, the front door stood open, and the house was full of people. Some people dropped in, shook a few hands, and left again. Others hung around chatting, drinking tea, and eating cakes and sandwiches. It was so good to see so many people, and nice that a friend of mine who lives nearby was able to come by briefly.

                We had another private moment with just the family when the undertaker came back to close the coffin. And then they came again the next morning to collect the coffin for the funeral.

                Wakes are for the family, and for the friends, and the busier the better.

            2. Anax*

              Agreed, that’s my cultural context too in the Midwest. We would call that a “visitation.” The bereaved generally stand at the front, and there’s a receiving line – a queue of folks who express their condolences for perhaps a minute, and then leave. It’s considered rude if you hold up the line by talking for too long. The casket may or may not be present.

              Since it’s so brief, it feels like less of an imposition for anyone to drop by. It’s expected that the bereaved will basically keep it together and not be, er… messy and overwrought in their grieving while dealing with the receiving line, too, which implies less emotional vulnerability.

              I would expect more for the boss/coworkers of the deceased to appear, regardless of whether they knew the bereaved – it does sound a little more odd for the bereaved’s professional acquaintances to appear, but not beyond the pale.

              The funeral itself, which may not be religious but probably involves a eulogy, people coming up and telling stories about the deceased, and probably a slideshow – THAT would feel strange for acquaintances to attend, because in my experience, that’s generally a pretty personal setting for close family and friends.

              (It definitely sounds a little strange laid out like that, and I’m not personally a fan either, but it’s what I grew up with.)

        3. Lana Kane*

          This is not out of bounds in general. For you, yes, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But I also know people who have been touched that their coworkers or boss have come to pay their respect. I would be touched as well and there’s nothing wrong with that either. It’s just a matter of preference.

    6. Liz the Snackbrarian*

      If the manager and the person whose family member did aren’t close, I think it could be seen as overstepping a boundary. There are also some people who prefer to leave their personal problems in their personal lives. Plus funerals also usually involve a lot of tough emotions, crying, and maybe even some family drama if there were complicated relationships or people acting out. Sometimes people just don’t want their colleagues to see that side of things.

    7. Seashell*

      It sounds like the collection was of cash, not people bringing meals over. I would feel weird if someone from work handed me a wad of cash after a parent/older relative’s funeral, because I have enough money to order take-out if I really needed to. It might be a different circumstance if the bereaved was someone who was barely making ends meet or had not been paid because they missed work due to the family member’s illness and funeral.

      Believe it or not, the whole world doesn’t do things the same as the South. I live in the Northeast. In my experience, the funeral is more for the deceased’s family or people who were close to the deceased or the deceased’s loved ones. More casual acquaintances typically go to the wake/viewing.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah people forget that culture is a language. You can’t make a cultural approach to someone who doesn’t know the cultural response, or who who wouldn’t be comforted by it’s familiarity, or who hasn’t indicated that they’re of the same view as you.

    8. RussianInTexas*

      Really depends on your relationship with the boss. My previous boss was fine, but we had zero relationship that was not strictly work related, and he was my boss for about 5 years. I would not expect or want him to show up at a funeral, it would be very weird.
      I wouldn’t want most of my coworkers show up either, they aren’t friends, but coworkers, even if friendly.
      Money collection – also depends on your relationship with coworkers or the boss.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        Now, an actual employee funeral – sure, maybe. But my relative? Why? None of these people knew my relative, why on earth would they show up for a funeral?

        1. Happy meal with extra happy*

          Interestingly, as someone who views funerals as way to help and comfort the survivors, I think it could make more sense to go the funeral of a coworker’s family member rather than that of a coworker.

          1. RussianInTexas*

            To me a funeral is paying respect to the person who is now dead.
            I don’t know the person who is dead. Therefore I am not going, unless it’s a relative of a close friend.

            1. Jenesis*

              My rule is that if I’ve never met the deceased, I’m not going to their funeral. I don’t like big public affairs in general (if I get my way, there will be no funeral when I die) and heaven forbid someone asks “so how did you know the deceased?” and I have to awkwardly scramble for a plausible-sounding answer that isn’t “actually, I didn’t”. Even if I was asked to be a support person for a grieving survivor who was a close friend/family, I would figure that if I was important enough to them to be a good support person, and the deceased was important enough to them to publicly mourn, they would have come up with a way for us to meet and get to know each other at some point. Otherwise, there will certainly be actual friends and relatives of the deceased they can lean on for support.

              For a coworker, sign a sympathy card and cover time off, sure, but I’m not comfortable doing anything more.

    9. mel*

      This is close-minded of you. That different people are, in fact, different doesn’t make them “monsters.”

    10. Saturday*

      You don’t know what other people’s financial situations are like. Taking up one collection now means more later, and that can really leave people who can’t afford it in a bind.

      Also, as other people have said, there are differences in culture. I’ve never heard of giving money to a grieving coworker.

    11. Insert Clever Name Here*

      I am a born and bred Southerner, living in the South. Bless your heart, don’t you know these things are personal?

      When my grandmother died, my boss sent me flowers and a card on behalf of our team. I’m professionally close to my boss, but I definitely did not want to see her at the funeral — the absolute last thing I needed while helping with logistics, trying to support my dad and grandfather, comforting my young children who were uncertain and scared with all the feelings that come the first time someone you love dies, and dealing with my own crippling grief that left me sobbing so hard in the pew that I could barely breathe was to then have to talk to my boss.

      Now, that’s my opinion as it relates to my situation. When my husband’s grandmother died, and my MIL’s boss came to the funeral, my MIL (whose mother had died) was touched. My MIL also prefers mayonnaise in her potato salad and I prefer mustard in mine — shockingly, we cannot paint everyone who lives below the Mason-Dixon line with a single brush.

    13. Staying clear of the South*

      Ah yes, that well-known cultural sensitivity of the southerner in action. What a delight!

    14. Withheld*

      I would be yes to the collection, no to the funeral. I would find it so, so bizarre for someone I wasn’t close with to show up to the funeral of a family member they don’t know. I know funerals are public, but I think etiquette dictates that you should have a close connection to either the deceased or a relative of the deceased.

      Contributing to a care package is both less personal and more helpful.

    15. lanfy*

      As others have already pointed out, adding extra stress to a grieving person by forcing them to either attempt to be professional, or to break down in front of someone they would never want to see them like that, is very much negative.
      And viewing cultural norms as ‘monstrous’ just because they’re different from yours is very definitely an office culture I wouldn’t want to be part of.

      1. Alpacas Are Not Dairy Animals*

        I don’t have strong feelings about attending visitations one way or another but the idea that one would stress out try to keep a professional demeanor in front of colleagues, or be stressed about not doing so, *at a funeral* is really weird to me. Surely your colleagues know you’re a human, even if you normally have strong work-life boundaries?

        1. lanfy*

          Everyone on the planet knows I’m a human. That doesn’t mean I want them seeing me break down.

  2. Irish Teacher.*

    I think that culture probably plays a major part in LW2 (I know questions here are generally assumed to be related to US culture unless specified otherwise). In Ireland, it would be very normal for a boss to attend either the removal or the funeral and…might actually look a bit odd if the workplace wasn’t represented at all.

    When my dad died, the deputy principal of my school attended the removal and the principal apologised for not attending the funeral itself, but an inspector turned up that day, so she wasn’t able to. A number of other colleagues also attended the removal and one of the other members of the resource team attended the funeral itself, saying she was “representing everybody” as the inspector’s arrival meant some of those who would otherwise have attended (the SENCO, the principal and one or two colleagues I am close to) could not do so.

    But then Irish funerals and more so removals, tend to be large affairs. Politicians invariably show up, with one introducing himself at my dad’s removal as “First name-Last name, TD” (TD being the Irish version of an MP or member of parliament; it’s from the Irish). That struck me as a bit distasteful, but I seem to be in the minority on that one (in Ireland), as it seems like politicians do not do well if they do not turn up to funerals.

      1. Beany*

        The removal is when a body is moved from wherever they died (e.g. home, hospital, nursing home) to the church or funeral location. The funeral itself then takes place at this location, before the body is transported to the gravesite (assuming it will be buried).

        The removal is usually the day or evening before the funeral, and is the occasion for a short-form memorial service at the church; sometimes people can come to the removal but can’t attend the formal funeral the next day.

        Having typed this, I read that the removal ceremony is less popular in Ireland than it used to be.

      3. Ellis Bell*

        It’s when the body is taken from the home to the church or ceremony. It follows the wake where people gather in the home to pay respects, and visit with the body. I could easily be getting this wrong though as my family’s traditions are pretty different to Irish teachers though, in that only friends and family would be at the house for visitation and only very close participants are around when the body is carried out. However it can be semi public at removal, we have neighbours and people at the community stop and wait at their doors as the procession passes. We’re in a big city, and my family has not been Irish for generations so it’s bound to be different.

    3. Happy meal with extra happy*

      From my experience where I am in the US (Philly area), it’s very much dependent on the individual. I’ve gone to two funerals for the coworkers of parents, but even for the one coworker, when her other parent passed, she didn’t want coworkers there.

    4. Frieda*

      I’m in the midwest of the U.S. and have attended one colleague’s wife’s visitation (long illness and not unexpected) and another colleague’s husband’s funeral (very sudden illness, totally unexpected except that he was an older person, a number of years past retirement.) In both cases there were lots of people from work there and it did not feel out of place at all.

      OTOH other people I work with have lost loved ones and I have not attended the funeral but have signed the card that was circulated. I think it’s both workplace and work-relationship dependent.

    5. RLC*

      Interestingly, your description of Irish funerals could describe funerals in rural villages in the western US. Very much a community event, and usually large affairs. Sometimes seemed as if the entire village and a good portion of neighboring villages attended, colleagues from offices hundreds of miles away, etc.
      Definitely a case of “know the culture”.

    6. Lana Kane*

      In my Puerto Rican culture it would be very normal for a boss to come to the funeral of an employee’s close relative. I know people who would be offended if they didn’t.

    7. toe beans*

      Definitely culture plays a major part. All the funerals I’ve attended have been for my English family, and it was very much family and friends only. My boss wouldn’t have dreamt of turning up, and I’d have been really uncomfortable if they had!

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        In my case, there’s always been a reason why it wouldn’t have been possible for my boss or coworkers to attend anyway (mostly, because the distance was too far, but in one case it was lockdown and attendance was restricted anyway) – but I do remember seeing the original question and feeling a bit surprised at the idea of bosses going, if any of those funerals had been local and non-lockdown, I wouldn’t have even thought that anyone from work might turn up. (For context, I’m English.)

  3. Abogado Avocado*

    OP#3, wow, it sounds like it’s been a tough time at work. Best of luck with your studies. May librarian and archiving jobs in your area are more robust than where I live. Here in the Southwest US, these jobs are being cut everywhere — in private firms (like daily newspapers), in government libraries, law firms, and universities. (On the other hand, my state also is a place where school board members are removing books from school libraries lest young minds learn anything “controversial” about history or from fiction.) I truly hope that your part of the world is different and better!

    1. Cmdrshprd*

      I agree, not a librarian but know several friends in the field. If OP is passionate about it and that is what they want to do, great go for it. But except for maybe a handful of positions, a library masters degree is almost certainly not the degree for:

      “I felt that in order to increase my income, I needed to continue my education. I am starting online grad school in January, studying library science, history, and archiving.”

      Maybe the current job is even more low paying compared to having your masters, but the people I know the field is very competitive, jobs are very low, and pay is not great.

      If it is a passion great go for it, but I don’t know that it will necessarily be something that is worth it/pays off economically.

      1. Another Librarian*

        I am a librarian, and my heart sank when I read that sentence. The OP is going through an awful lot, and I feel for her, but I hate to see her throw time and money and hope at a scarce job in a low-paying field.

        Anne Helen Petersen wrote a great essay about librarianship a couple years ago (“The Librarians Are Not Okay”–I’ll link below) that I would absolutely recommend reading. The OP might want to focus on finding stable employment and housing right now, and revisit working a passion job (and paying for the credential to get it) at some point when things are less precarious.

        2. Vincent t adultman*

          I had another worrisome thought—that it’s possibly a for-profit diploma mill scam school that will charge her way more than the normal amount and leave her with a very useless degree. There’s no evidence in the letter that the school isn’t legitimate so I really hope that I’m just being anxious for no reason.

      2. LaminarFlow*

        That sentiment got my attention as well. I have 2 friends who work in the field. One is a former attorney, and she has steady work & a decent income in Legal Library Science. The other friend doesn’t have a JD, and he drives for Uber and does Handyman work to make his income workable. We are in our late 40s, and he’s still paying his student loans back. I doubt either friend would recommend Library Science as a career that will be worth the time & cost, especially at an older age.

      3. fhqwhgads*

        Yeah everyone I know with a masters in anything library-related is currently worked in a totally different field because there are way more people with the degree than there are jobs requiring said degree.

    2. Jenesis*

      For those in the know, what library-adjacent fields would you instead recommend to people with a passion for librarianship but who don’t want to be financially strapped and spend years searching for very scarce jobs?

      I’m an ex-lawyer who found far too late that I hate the “hustle” of having to constantly phone call clients and work long hours, but I enjoy the aspects of reading, researching, and organizing databases. I’m not going back to get a Masters in addition to my JD, don’t worry, but I would appreciate knowing if there are any other fields out there that would be a good fit.

      1. Throwaway Account*

        You need a law degree to be a law librarian. They would expect an MLIS as well, but might consider your legal experience instead or expect you to get the MLIS after you start the job. If you have a JD or similar, the MLIS should be very straightforward and you can do them 100% online from an accredited program.

      2. BethDH*

        The people I know with MLIS or related degrees (and I know a lot of them!) have had the best luck in research-management-related fields, often attached to grant projects or labs in their area of interest. These seem to be listed sometimes by the individual project and sometimes (especially at smaller institutions) are centralized through the library, grant department, or some sort of research support unit. This involves not just managing and structuring data and related info during a project, but properly archiving it in a sustainable way.
        The job outlook isn’t great for museum registrars but wanted to flag the possibility, as it has a lower level of oversupply than librarians and has a lot of overlap with the parts of librarianship you mentioned. Especially if you’re interested in databases and critical cataloging / provenance. I’d think a legal background would be useful given the contracts and compliance things involved.

        1. MLIS-haver*

          From my friends in museum registration: big red klaxons. The pay is wildly disproportionate to the expectations on time and labor. The barrier to entry is insane and (art) registration requires a significant background that includes things such as experience in fine art handling, museum databases and nomenclature, art storage, installation, etc. and while this could all be learned on the job, museums like to ask for a graduate degree and/or significant internship/fellowships for entry-level.

          I’d love to hear from people who went into rights and reproductions, corporate records management or corporate digital asset management- those popped into my head as something possibly more viable and related. Or even data governance.

    3. boof*

      NGL I felt so bad about all the things LW3 was going through and then I got to ” in order to increase my income, I needed to continue my education. I am starting online grad school in January, studying library science, history, and archiving” and I just wanted to yell “Noooooooooo…!” in slow motion and like, dive block. Tho I am not a librarian and I don’t know if OP had something very specific and promising lined up with that but, everything I’ve heard about those fields are not teaming with high paying jobs, not at all. OP3, if you haven’t yet please seriously consider what sort of jobs you want AND ARE READILY AVAILABLE/likely to be available (I know we can’t really predict the future but we can make educated guesses that’s all) before committing to more school (and, presumably, bills or work when you’re already stressed)

    4. Viki*

      Yeah… pivoting to libraries and archival is certainly a choice.

      At least where I am, there’s a lot of qualified candidates, with not a lot of openings and pay that is not comparable to col.

      On the other hand, record management positions in a municipality is a good possibility but probably not a libraries degree.

    5. MLIS-haver*

      I got my MLIS and have worked in the field for over 15 years. Count me in as the “oh nooo” part when OP said what they wanted to study. Burnout, low pay, scarce jobs, information bans, and increased cuts to positions and funding. Maybe it’ll be different for them? I hope it is.

    6. LL*

      Yeah, I’m a librarian and there are way more people with the experience and degree for those jobs than there are jobs. And the pay tends to be low.

      This isn’t a great career move for someone who has to take care of 2 kids on their own, IMO.

    7. In the middle*

      I’m a certified, mastered public school librarian with 15 years of experience. If LW is in the USA, I would not recommend pursuing the degree.   I’m paid and certified as a teacher in my state (I did a teacher certification/education/library masters program), and that is the only reason my salary is livable.  Public librarians here make $12 an hour to start, part time, masters required.   We are not ok and things are going to get much, much worse.  Please look up Amanda Jones (a librarian getting death threats) among others.  I wish the best for you. 

    8. RainyDay*

      Same. I have an MLS but work in a different (though somewhat related) field because I could NOT get my foot in the door anywhere here in the Northeast. I also did an hybrid program, and while I didn’t have a choice at the time because of my circumstances, I was 100% at a disadvantage taking some classes online. Networking and experience would have made a big difference to my job search – those I knew who DID get jobs in the field had the ability to intern or at the very least volunteer, which I could not do as I was working full time and going to school part time. Adding kids in the mix would’ve made it even harder. I was specifically looking at the history/archiving side as well, and that is very, very hands-on.

      Plot twist, I’m earning more in my current field than I would have at this point as a librarian.

  4. bighairnoheart*

    The absolute GALL of OP1’s former employee saying he was looking forward to working with OP again soon! I’m glad you let him go to voicemail so you didn’t have to react to that in real time. Good luck with your application for the VP position!

    1. Elsewise*

      That’s absolutely someone who went in going “I’m going to sound confident and positive and they’re going to love it!” and way overswung and just sounded delusional. God, I’m cringing just imagining saying something like that before I’ve even talked to anyone. Self-awareness is not one of his strong skills.

  5. Kristin*

    #3 – Former librarian and archivist here. Let me tell you, the field is highly competitive. Also, the certification for archivists is a difficult test (I passed it, though). Some advice:
    I received an MLIS in library science, archives, and information science, which gave me more flexibility and employability. Especially learn integrated library systems (ILSs). Learn as much technical information as possible (aside from cataloging – everyone wants to get into that, too).
    Learn SharePoint. Learn statistics. Consider indexing and taxonomies – doing that, I ended up working for NASA.
    Write for The American Archivist. I did not get published but it raised my profile. Write for Public Libraries and other scholarly mags (people in the profession don’t do this enough).
    Remember, you might not land your dream job at first (I started on the lowest run at age 45 but quickly was promoted) but your career is what you make of it. Best of luck to you!

  6. Strive to Excel*

    LW #3 – I really hope it goes OK. I don’t know that library sciences would be my pick for a “I need to get a college degree for a job”, though people with more experience than me in libraries/academia please correct me if I’m wrong! All the best of luck to you in any case!

    1. Seashell*

      I thought similarly. While it sounds very interesting and I get the appeal, it wouldn’t be high on my list of “degrees likely to make you a lot of money”.

      1. Magpie*

        The question isn’t whether it will make you a lot of money. The question is whether you can find a job in the field at all. Library and archive jobs have been decimated over the last couple decades so there’s already a glut of experienced librarians applying for every open job. I personally know three people with an MLIS degree and only one of them has been able to make a career in the field.

    2. Pointy's in the North Tower*

      You definitely have to have that Master’s to be classified as a librarian. (Source: I have mine and have worked in libraries professionally for almost 20 years.) My particular state requires a certain percentage of staff have their Master’s depending on the size of the library’s service population. A small library might have the director as the only Master’s degree-holding staff. Large systems will have multiple staff with Master’s who usually focus on a specific service area (Adult Services, Children’s, Cataloging, etc.)

      Academic librarians often have at least two Master’s (their MLIS/MLS and a subject matter Master’s), if not more/higher degrees. Law librarians have their JD, pass the bar, AND have their MLIS.

      Not all libraries work quite the same, but in the systems I worked there was a definite pay difference between the para-level (non-Master’s) and professional level bands. The professional pay bands started well above what the para bands topped out.

      1. Meaningful hats*

        I live in a tiny town. We have on small library, and it is not part of the larger metro area branch. The director has a master’s degree (I know because she and my husband grew up together and our families are friendly with one another) but if they tried to require a master’s from every employee there would be no library. Most employees there stay for their entire career. The children’s librarian (who maybe cannot be truly called a librarian due to lack of degree, but that’s what we call her) has been there for nearly 50 years. My husband remembers attending story hour with her when he was a boy.

    3. Ms. Murchison*

      Yeah my heart absolutely dropped when I read this letter. I hope the job marked has improved in that industry since I gave up and switched careers, because if not LW3 is headed for a demoralizing and rocky road. It’ll still likely be demoralizing once she gets a job, unless she’s one of the lucky ones to find a job at a functional, nontoxic institution. But regardless of that, librarianship is definitely not a path to financial security unless you’re combining your MLIS with a second higher degree, either a JD or a second masters. LW3, I hope you did a boatload of research before you made this choice. And don’t go into librarianship as a “calling” because that way lies madness (there’s a good article about that somewhere, maybe someone can find it and link to it).

        1. Jenesis*

          Thanks for sharing the article!

          I wasn’t past the first paragraph about librarians administering (hopefully with training??) life-saving drugs to patients when I went “hoo boy, this is the kind of ‘feel-good’ story that just illustrates what a dystopia we live in, and if this was an AAM question the commentariat would be screaming about how Very Not Appropriate this would be as a flex of ‘other duties as assigned’.”

          1. Madame Desmortes*

            Yes, I cover the Narcan-in-libraries controversy as well, under the larger umbrella of the destruction of public services concentrating much too much in the library and on librarians.

    4. LL*

      It would not be. I’m a librarian, I do not recommend this field to anyone who wants to be able to easily find a job and get paid well.

  7. Liz the Snackbrarian*

    LW2, I’m glad you were able to get the diagnosis you need and see your professional situation for what it is. I’m also starting the ADHD medication journey. Wishing you best of luck with it all!

    1. sometimeswhy*

      I GASPED at the end of message reveal. I would ALSO really love to get another update after the recruitment is done.

      1. Tio*

        SAME. “I’m not qualified for this regular level position so I’ll see you when I get the new one that’s even higher!” Please update

      2. Bill and Heather's Excellent Adventure*

        Same, I heard the “DUN DUN DUNNNN!” and saw the ‘To be continued…”

  9. Kristin*

    Also, #2 – that was me before I received my MLIS, blamed for all the mistakes in the office. Turns out my manager and another superior were responsible for them, but I could not see that. You did what I did (because I was working through grad school), swallowed my pride and “improved” and jumped through their hoops (and I slowed down, which did help a lot) – but keep it clear in your head was is true and right, because regardless of these mistakes, you are being gaslighted.
    Do your work mindfully, and protect yourself against unfounded accusations by documenting, using email instead of chat, and even keeping a journal. My workplace was extremely abusive, dominated by two controlling, high-conflict personalities, and it sounds like you could be dealing with the same. Don’t let them cut you down in your mind or make you question your sanity. You are the sane one.

  10. WorriedAmoeba*

    LW 3: A couple things stood out to me.

    1. You need to get a lawyer and get the house situation sorted ASAP. Assuming you were on the mortgage and the deed, unwinding home ownership between unmarried partners can get messy if you guys can’t come to an agreement on your own and it sounds like that might be the case here.

    2. Library Science is an incredibly rewarding and massively underpaid area so please look at the salary prospects before you invest time and money into a grad degree in that area, especially since finances are a concern.

    3. I understand the stress you are under but you may need to be come more aggressive and more selective in applying for jobs. Based on your letters, there are some massive red flags at your company and I suspect you may be shown the door sooner rather than later, not due to any fault of yours, but due to your awful management.

    2. Gamer Girl*

      That stood out to me as well, re: your point number one. Even if you believe your ex to be trustworthy, they could potentially make choices related to the house that would be damaging to your future. See a lawyer as soon as you can so that they can advise you.

    3. Consonance*

      Regarding Library Science: As a librarian, this degree has worked well for me because (1) I had family financial support to complete the degree, (2) I built most of my career before I had kids so I could move to where the jobs were, (3) I have a science-y bachelors degree which set me apart from the masses, (4) I have a second masters in a business-y field which again set me apart from the masses, and (5) I work in a niche field that librarians are normally kind of afraid of so the candidate pool is small. I love my work and I don’t want to dissuade going into it, but there’s a lot that went into making this a good choice for me. If I were going to school at this point in my life, funding it myself, hoping to make more money, and supporting kids: Nope.

  11. Purely Allegorical*

    OP3 — Wow that is a tough row to hoe. I really feel for you. I might suggest you think really, really hard about that particular degree and timeline. That field is incredibly competitive and not always well-paying — will a 3-5yr grad program be worth the ROI?

    I might look at some specializations within that field that could give you more edge. Kristin (above) had great suggestions. I would also suggest you look at digital archivist/content manager roles — my company has a ‘digital librarian’ role, he basically manages all the content for our internal learning platform. Drupal, Docebo, Sharepoint, etc. would be valuable programs to gain experience in.

  12. RussianInTexas*

    I am a person who would presume people would not want me to intrude, vs presuming people will want my support. Especially people who are not my personal friends, but coworkers. Because that is what I would want.
    So, I’ve been in the workplace for 25 years now and not once went to a coworker’s relative’s funeral or viewing, or anything of the sort. Just like I don’t usually go to coworker’s children’s birthdays, christenings, quinceaneras, parents’ anniversaries, etc.
    Unless the coworker is also a friend, to me, this is out of bounds.

    1. OpalescentTreeShark*

      Do you often get invited to birthdays or christenings of people you aren’t also friends with at work?

  13. Ohio Duck*

    Letter #1: The voicemail is so embarrassing, people really have no idea what’s going on behind the scenes. Don’t try to read the interviewer/company’s mind!

  14. Beth*

    What letter is Update #3 actually referring to? It doesn’t match the linked one about the co-worker claiming to be the LW’s boss.

  15. Saturday*

    OP3, I don’t think your supervisor’s comments are conflicting. I think she’s giving you a heads up that looking for a new job is a good idea and also telling you that you’re a good worker (which is great because it sounds like she’ll be a good reference for you).

    1. The Turtle Moves*

      Yes that was my take! OP it sounds like you’re a good worker but if there are layoffs you boss may not be able to protect you (hence the comments about job security).

    2. Happy*

      Yes! I feel so bad for the OP because it sounds like they have had such a hard time and there is a lot uncertainty about the future. But those statements are not conflicting at all. It sounds like their boss really has their back to share all of that information! Which is great.

  16. Katie*

    For OP3 just because you do a good job and your boss thinks you do great work it doesn’t mean that your job can’t/won’t be sent to India. India is cheaper. Your boss was very much warning you of what was to come.

    Good luck finding a new job!

  17. Heather*

    I’m sorry to just repeat what others have said, but the following really caught my eye:

    “(The owner) has talked often about his goal of having 500 employees in India … I could see him wanting to cut down the U.S. team more and hiring more in India.” …Then the other day she complimented my work and said she was really impressed with me …these conflicting statements have been happening in meetings since summer.”

    LW, those statements do not conflict with one another! You can be a great employee and still get laid off. Party City recently closed all of its branches, and I’m sure there were many great employees who still lost their jobs. The owner can outsource the work and it has nothing to do with you!

    1. RVA Cat*

      100% about that last point. Half my team was laid off earlier this year and the rest of us were transferred to the outsource company. This is a for a major regional bank that decided to send most of its back office to India. We’re all just numbers on a spreadsheet in headquarters.

  19. RussianInTexas*

    The last funeral, Lebanese Catholic, father of son in law, did not have a wake in a house or a funeral home, no viewing.
    It was not a public funeral, without a notice for the public, so only people who were invited were there. The only procedure was a mass in his church with the body there, and then very few people went to the cemetery. Those people were the widow, the siblings, and the children of the diseased.

    1. RussianInTexas*

      Back in Russia, as I remember (from childhood really), there was a viewing in the apartment, and them straight to the cemetery. No idea how the viewing was dealt with re: invited or not, places were small. The people who live in the apartment block would congregate to the send of to the cemetery, but only the family and very close friends would go to the cemetery.
      After the funeral there would be a “memorial” meal, with just the family and friends. There were some specific foods you had to serve. Then you had another “memorial” after 40 days since the death, because as believe, that’s when the soul really departs.
      Nowadays I presume religious people probably do have something in the church/temple/mosque, but who knows.

    2. Coverage Associate*

      My experience in California has been all over the place re co workers and funerals. It can depend on the profession and the circumstances of the death. First responders’ funerals typically have other first responders attending who don’t work directly with the deceased or bereaved, especially if it was a line of duty death. Children’s funerals are well attended, so well attended that I don’t think everyone in attendance knows any of the family at all.

      And President Carter’s funeral next week?

      When I was a child, one of my mother’s employees died, and I think my parents brought me to the funeral, as I had met the employee and my parents had poor work v family boundaries. Rare now to see children at funerals, in my experience, especially not family.

      I belong to a religion with public funerals and attend each one at my church that I can, even when I don’t know the deceased or family. (I would not attend if I thought space would be an issue.) But I find that is strange for most people and have had visitors at the church for the funeral assume I must belong to the bereaved family just because I am dressed in black.

      There’s really no single custom I have observed in California, and I would follow management’s lead regarding work related funerals. My boss was out for a funeral a few months ago, and when he logged in afterwards I said, “I’m sorry for your loss?” sort of with the question mark because I didn’t know the circumstances. It turned out to be a friend’s parent who had passed, and that’s the kind of thing I might explain to my co workers as just a personal obligation, or put that where the reason is written and shared (eg, out of office email) and explain it was a funeral just to co workers I am closer to.

  20. UNCLE BUCK*

    #4 Management goes to all the wakes of employee’s parents. Coworkers go to the wakes of close connections, there have been four wakes since I have been with this company. I attended three and was surprised at how few of my other coworkers attended. The fourth was for a coworker’s father who had only been with the company two months and I was on crutches. His whole department went to the wake. When an employee dies the company shifts staff from other locations to allow all the coworkers to attend the church service.

  21. Banana Pyjamas*

    #3 you should be aware that sometimes state assistance programs have higher income limits for students. In my state the normal cut-off for food stamps is 130% of poverty level, but the cut-off for students is 160%. There is NO shame if you do need additional financial help.

  22. UKLu*

    Seems like the easiest, kindest and most logical thing for LW4 to do is ASK their employee whether they would like them to attend the funeral in order to offer their support rather than just guessing/making assumptions fgs?! Funerals are not only about celebrating the life of the deceased but also to offer support to the living who were closest to them.

  23. One Duck In A Row*

    LW5 – I’m sorry your employer hasn’t improved the situation, but here’s hoping they figure it out this year! I work for a company that sounds similar – while many of us can and do work remotely at least part of the time, there are also many roles here that must be done on-site, and without a lot of flexibility in terms of scheduling their hours or days. As a whole it’s baffling that we don’t get more sick time, because my employer is otherwise pretty good in terms of benefits, and specifically prides itself on that. I’ve been advocating for more sick time for years (we are below the national average, so it feels like a pretty good basis for asking when they tout our good benefits), and in the past few years I have also pointed out that they should give even more time to folks who don’t have the option to work from home. I assume those anonymous surveys aren’t actually anonymous, and at the very least they can probably tell from other answers I give that I’m one of the folks who can work remotely — I hope that hearing some of us desk workers advocate for others will help emphasize that they need to change something. We all need more, but they need the most, and that needs to be the priority.

    I suspect that at least with my employer part of the concern might be chronic understaffing. I don’t actually know what the situation with that is with the teams that need to work on-site, but everyone else is pretty under-staffed, and I assume they are worried that if folks took more sick time it would cause problem. It might not even be numbers, specifically, but a lack of redundancy/cross-training in a few areas that could bring entire projects to a halt instead of just slowing things down a bit because of someone missing. Of course, that fear should incentivize leadership to both work on cross-training and staffing issues as well as policies to further mitigate disease spread, such as making it easier for people to not infect their co-workers when sick. More sick days + more masking would help SO much. (At least they do provide masks and ask people to wear them if they may be sick, but we have had to shut things down more than once because of covid outbreaks. Higher quality masks, mandatory masking if sick or exposed to covid or influenza, and highly recommending masking by others during high risk times would help SO much.)

  24. leeapeea*

    OP #5 – It sounds like you’re in some way tying the turnover to the benefits package, specifically the time off. Is your management concerned about the high turnover? If so, are they trying other tweaks (like bonuses) to try to mitigate it? If not, i.e., if they’re willing to take the turnover as the cost of doing business, that may not be the best foothold for your argument, even though you’re right that turnover is often costly.
    If they have shown concerns about turnover, an approach that has been taken at my company is to enact new benefits/policies on an interim basis – usually one year. This allows those that aren’t comfortable with more PTO/flexibility/floating holidays plausible deniability that the new policy will be liked and not abused. It allows management to see if it’s actually making a difference in employee satisfaction and a decent time period for gathering data on its effect on retention. I’m not sure what the criteria is for removing an interim benefit or policy – it hasn’t happened yet. Some policies are still year-to-year, some have become permanent, but I know they have actively reviewed them every year so my guess is the naysayers don’t have anything to nay?
    Thank you on behalf of your team for advocating for increased PTO/sick time.

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