my vegan coworker is upset about getting non-vegan gifts three years in a row

by Alison Green on January 7, 2025

A reader writes:

I work in a small office of six people, and since we’ve all been here for 3+ years at least, we’re pretty close. We hold a gift exchange where basically everyone buys a gift for everyone else. I understand that’s probably a bit much, but it works for us.

In 2022, my coworker “Marie” got everyone a jar of local honey, which I honestly was thrilled with. Unfortunately she didn’t realize our coworker “Liz” couldn’t have it, since she is vegan (we all know Liz is vegan, but Marie didn’t realize vegans don’t eat honey). It was a shame, but not a big deal. Liz was gracious about it.

The next year, Marie got Liz a personalized collar for her dog. Unfortunately, the collar was leather. Again, Marie didn’t know about this element of being vegan. She apologized profusely and offered to buy Liz another gift, but Liz said it was fine.

This past Christmas, Marie got Liz a gift set of fancy popcorn. She actually asked another coworker what a vegan snack was as she was getting everyone a gift with a “snack” theme. However, she got a different coworker one of those gift sets with summer sausage, cheeses, mustard, etc. (This coworker is a man with very Ron Swanson type tastes, food-wise, so he would appreciate this.) The problem is these gift boxes looked very similar once wrapped and Marie accidentally switched the labels, so “Ron” got the fancy popcorn and Liz got the sausage and cheese. Yikes. Liz looked genuinely shocked when she opened it, and Marie gasped and began to explain, asking Ron to open his gift to show the popcorn intended for Liz. Liz was very quiet throughout, and the coworker who had recommended the popcorn said she had indeed suggested this to Marie. The popcorn set contained two jars of cheese seasoning, but I really think Marie tried this year. Liz finally traded gifts with Ron and things awkwardly moved on.

The problem now is Liz is being very cold to Marie, and Marie confided that our manager had a talk with her, saying Liz feels that Marie has a pattern of bullying her through these gifts. Marie was so upset because she really didn’t intend any of this, it was just ignorance the first two times and then this last one was a complete mistake. She knows how it looks but she doesn’t know how to fix it. In such a small office, one person openly thinking another is a bad person is very awkward for everyone. I don’t know if there’s anything Marie can do to mend fences with Liz, but if there is I would love to suggest it. I feel she’s apologized and been backed up by the coworker who suggested popcorn and Liz is being a bit unreasonable to hold a grudge. But I’d love to hear if you think there’s anything Marie can do to fix it.

Liz’s reaction seems like it might be more than is warranted, but it’s also true that Marie was kind of an ass here.

Not knowing honey isn’t vegan, fine. Many people don’t! Not knowing about leather, okay; again, many people don’t. But when you’ve messed up two years in a row, it’s pretty damn thoughtless not to check the ingredients on the next gift to make sure you get it right this time.

It’s understandable for Liz to be exasperated at this point, especially if Marie made a big deal of thinking she was finally getting it right, particularly since cheese seasoning is probably the most obvious of all three mistakes. It’s reasonable that Liz is thinking, “Really?”

For what it’s worth, I think the accidental swap with Ron’s gift is a red herring. I’m sure that upon opening a meat extravaganza, Liz had an initial moment of shock; if she thought that was her gift, it might have seemed like an intentional F-you. But once it was clear what happened, the mix-up shouldn’t have been a big deal … except that her actual gift was also a problem, and at some point all of this combines to feel like Marie is being almost pointedly thoughtless.

I’m curious about Marie and Liz’s relationship outside of gift-giving occasions. Do they normally get along? Liz’s comment that she feels Marie has a pattern of bullying her through these gifts makes me think the rest of their relationship isn’t particularly warm either and something more is going on. If I were their manager, I’d be digging into that. And if I were Marie, I’d be doing some self-reflection on what this is all about.

But you’re basically a bystander; there’s not much role for you to play, and involving yourself risks adding to the drama. That said, if you’re close to Marie, you could suggest that she apologize again and assure Liz that she will be more careful in the future — but only if she really means that (since if in reality she’s going to continue not to bother checking ingredients, pretending otherwise will just make things worse).

If Marie really wants to try to smooth this over, she could get Liz a replacement gift that’s actually vegan. She’s not obligated to, but it would be a gracious way of demonstrating that she’s truly trying to make it right (but OMG please make sure this one is really vegan; we do not want her offering up a side of beef or something next). If your area has a vegan bakery or similar, a gift certificate from there might be thoughtful. There are also online vegan bakeries she could order from. (Or, obviously, she could avoid food gifts altogether! But actually getting it right with food in a way that Liz can trust — i.e., not something Marie cooks herself — might be a more powerful statement that she’s really trying.)

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  1. Carlie*

    Who was it who said “once is a mistake, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern”? Regardless, Marie is being incredibly ignorant here – who buys a gift with cheese components (the 3rd gift) for a vegan? At this point it does seem like she’s doing it on purpose.

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    1. H3llifIknow*

      Not to excuse Marie, but… if the popcorn set had cheese powder sprinkles like I see some places, I could see how she’s thinking “this is fake cheese; it isn’t real made from milk, so it shouldn’t be a problem.” But having said that, yeah Marie is either a complete clueless clod or she’s doing it on purpose with juuuuuuuuust enough plausible deniability to say “oh it was clearly a mistake, so sorry won’t happen again,” which is pretty awful if that’s it.

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      1. PineappleColada*

        Honestly, I’m still hung up on the idea of having to get five (!) thoughtful gifts for my coworkers.

        Gift-giving is not my love language, and I tend to be pretty bad at it. I just don’t really care about gifts, and so it’s hard for my brain to create salience around giving gifts to others. Then you have the downward spiral aspect: I’m bad at it, so I avoid it, then when I do shop, it’s at the last minute and I’m time pressed and I just grab something, which is usually kind of lame, which reinforces my belief that I’m bad at it.

        I don’t have a huge social network, so I don’t have to buy gifts a lot. Plus…the majority of adults I know don’t really care that much about gifts either.

        Add in the fact that so many of us have lots of family stuff, logistics, cooking, events around the holidays…and we don’t know their industry, December can be a busy season for many businesses.

        I think what’s most likely is she’s not good at the gift-giving skill. She specifically tried to improve by asking somebody for a vegan idea, then neglected to think through the “toppings” aspect.

        On a lot of webpages, the picture of the gift will be the primary thing. And then maybe the two seasoning jars are very small, and so she didn’t even think about them.

        It’s a little shocking to me how many people are jumping to the conclusion that she’s being a total jerk. I mean, in general, getting someone a dog collar is super personal and sweet! So she messed up on the material, what a crime.

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        1. PineappleColada*

          I’m actually more surprised that the advice doesn’t entail rethinking the gift exchange. The LW writes “It works for us”…but does it? You have one person icing another person out due to …popcorn?… and you have another person who is clearly unskilled at this group activity.

          Interesting how there’s a lot of compassion in the commentariat for people who are introverted and don’t do well at office social events, and people who are physically limited and don’t do well with sportsy-type activities.

          Everyone overlooks that this is another type of skill that not everyone is great at. Clearly she is trying, based on asking her coworkers for ideas. But I guess it’s easier to ascribe that she’s being terrible.

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          1. NothingIsLittle*

            As Alison said, I suspect it’s about far more than popcorn and that’s just the easiest issue to point to. This sort of thoughtlessness might accompany many microaggressions that are difficult to pinpoint but contribute to a feeling of alienation. Not to say that Marie is necessarily doing it on purpose, she could just be oblivious, but from the outside three gifts in a row (especially one containing cheese) does raise my concerns.

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            1. PineappleColada*

              I hear you, but nothing in the letter indicates that. I think we are expected to take them at their word, and LW didn’t mention anything about Marie doing anything else to make Liz uncomfortable. In fact, LW says that Marie gasped when she realized her mistake.

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              1. ChubCucumber*

                The one thing in the letter that indicates that is Liz escalating to their boss.

                She’s worked with Marie for three years and been gracious about getting non vegan gifts for two. That does not sound like someone who escalates on a whim.

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                1. Cabbagepants*

                  Escalating to management about gifts is unhinged. your manager is there to manage work, not be the recess attendant when you don’t get the present you want. goodness.

                2. Rose*

                  (Replying to Cabbagepants but comments aren’t nesting)

                  I agree, which is what makes me think there may be other issues at play and this was just the straw the broke the camel’s back.

                  Although I do think this is bigger issue than simply not liking the gift. Liz has a firm ethical stance (not just a preference) against eating/using animal products, and receiving animal products three times in a row from a coworker who knows perfectly well that she’s vegan…a lot. Probably not worth getting a manager involved if it is indeed the only issue, but I can see why she’s pissed.

                3. ChubCucumber*

                  Cabbage pants, I’d agree with you that Liz was overreacting if it happened the first year or the second. But it seems like Liz is seeing a pattern and felt she needed it to be addressed which is not unreasonable after three years.

                  The fact that Marie thought she should vent to LW about seems to me like further indication that Liz was justified in going to the boss.

                  Calling her “unhinged” is also a weirdly strong reaction to what Liz did. People go to bosses for help navigating relationships with colleagues all the time, and we only have LW’s second hand report from Marie about what Liz said.

                4. Pizza Rat*

                  it also makes me wonder if there are other incidents that support the complaints, though I’m not sure bullying is the right phrasing. Willful ignorance, maybe. Lack of basic consideration?

                5. Cabbagepants*

                  Cucumber: not getting a good present three times in three years isn’t bullying, and your boss isn’t there to adjudicate petty squabbles. It would be appropriate to escalate a tricky interpersonal issue that was related to work (internal politics blocking a project, for instance). But “my colleague doesn’t get me thoughtful presents” is not a problem for your boss.

                6. JSPA*

                  Replying to Cabbagepants,

                  this isn’t about it being a “bad gift” and wanting a “good gift.”

                  Compare giving (say) a smoked ham to your coworker who keeps halal or kosher. Not only will it be viscerally disgusting for them to have handled it, it’s a kick in the teeth to their belief system.

                  Or giving a jack-in-the-box to someone with a known clown phobia. After having given them a clown mask, the year before.

                  Or if you’re not able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, let’s see…

                  maybe consider how you’d feel if someone knew you liked to grow roses, so they gave you a warm, wiggling odiferous baggie of worm-composted cat poop, “for your roses.”

                7. ChubCucumber*

                  Cabbage: this isn’t about not getting thoughtful gifts. This is about a long term colleague getting gifts as part of a work gift exchange during which it seems that personalization is one of the criteria, and those gifts are not only not personalized but violate the ethical beliefs of the recipient. Once, understandable; they may not know each other very well. Twice, okay, that’s unfortunate, but other peoples beliefs can be hard to understand. Three times? It’s very hard to not see that as intentional, especially when there are literally thousands of gifts that wouldn’t involve even a smidgeon of risk. These are people who work together in a small office every day, there’s zero chance Marie doesn’t know of any other possible suitable gifts after three years.

                  It’s odd to me that you aren’t seeing this. Is it because Liz is vegan?

              2. MigraineMonth*

                We are taking the LW at their word that they don’t know of anything else that Marie is doing to make Liz uncomfortable. That doesn’t mean that Marie hasn’t done anything else to make Liz uncomfortable… or that LW is necessarily correct that Marie gave non-vegan gifts three years in a row completely by accident/ignorance.

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          2. Brain Sturgeon*

            Interesting how there’s a lot of compassion in the commentariat for people who are introverted and don’t do well at office social events, and people who are physically limited and don’t do well with sportsy-type activities.

            Also, how about not everybody has the money for this nonsense? I’m lucky if I can afford Christmas gifts for my immediate family much less 6 coworkers!

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            1. PineappleColada*

              Agreed. I honestly feel they should rethink the whole tradition. In addition to this debacle, I can imagine there are one to two people who feel like they have to participate, even if they can’t afford to.

              It’s easy for these type of gifts to run $20-$40. So that means you’re spending $100-$200 on your coworkers.

              I can’t imagine spending this much…taking the time to buy and wrap gifts for five coworkers…and then being vilified for it.

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              1. Slow Gin Lizz*

                Yes, this! I am all for giving thoughtful gifts to people but giving gifts to coworkers makes this very tricky. I’m at a stage in my life where I am lucky enough to be able to afford necessities and slightly-better-than-entry-level items for my hobbies. I don’t really want anyone buying my hobby stuff for me because I don’t need any more cheap/duplicate stuff (I’ll just donate it) and a work gift exchange isn’t a place where I would expect anyone to buy me expensive hobby stuff anyway. The dog collar strikes me as similar, because unless Liz mentioned at work that her dog needed a new collar, why would she need a second one?

                I don’t like waste gift items and a coworker gift exchange is exactly the kind of thing that creates waste gift items. Am I just a curmudgeon or am I trying to ward off wastefulness? I even get kind of sad when people bring me consumables that I don’t personally consume.

                Anyway, I think that if they want to still do some kind of gift thing at OP’s workplace, they could mix it up a bit and do Secret Santa or a Yankee swap. They could be very careful to get lists of people’s likes/dislikes (Liz could be really clear on what gifts work for her as a vegan) and raise the amount so that everyone buys a nice gift – instead of, say, $20 for each present, make it $50 for one gift and it could be something really nice.

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                1. Another Kristin*

                  They should do a gift exchange instead where everyone buys/goes home with one gift. Marie would probably still figure out how to buy something Liz can’t use, but hopefully someone else would wind up with it!

                2. Grace Poole*

                  I definitely don’t like getting “junk” gifts from coworkers, even if they are meant with great intentions. Instead of a gift swap, I’m a fan of a nice lunch. Go someplace (or order in) from someplace a step up from pizza or sandwiches. Everyone pays for themselves and gets what they want; no one is spending a bunch on gifts for coworkers.

            2. Raven Mistress*

              Good point! I still recall working in a nonprofit child-care center (not exactly known for paying huge salaries!) in which the “Secret Santa” gift exchange went on for two. whole. weeks. Each employee drew the name of a colleague and was then supposed to give that person a small present every day for two weeks (that was 10 presents.) At the end of that time, we were supposed to give a bigger present to OUR “Secret Sana” – thus, a total of 11 gifts altogether. This could easily add up to $70 or more – and this was in the 1980s!

              Please, managers – have a thought for your employees who are NOT earning six or seven figure salaries! And do NOT make employees give gifts to colleagues when they can barely afford to give them to their own family members, okay?

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              1. Bear Expert*

                What?! WHAT?!

                I do this kind of thing for the child I birthed from my body and pretty much no one else. I have coworkers I have laughed with, cried with, and because terrible things can happen, bled on. I have people who have been coworkers who I count as some of my dearest friends.

                Under no circumstances are we doing this. (My dearest friends and I have all given each other the gift of not requiring gifts on any particular timescale. If I see something or get a flash of insight about a thoughtful gift for a friend, I do it. Holidays and birthdays get texts and hugs.)

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          3. hardia*

            This was my immediate reaction: I’d be shutting down the gift exchange so fast, and assumed that’s what Alison’s advice would be (although I guess that’s more advice for the manager or decision makers than the letter writer). I’m not a fan of gift giving in the workplace to begin with (so many issues, from personal finances to the effort involved to the question of if everyone celebrates the holiday), but at the first hint of problematic gifts (even with good intentions)? We’d be done.

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            1. PineappleColada*

              100%! Yeah oftentimes Alison will say “If you were the manager, I’d tell you…” so I was surprised she didn’t do that in this case.

              Also since it’s such a small team, this impacts everybody. I think the LW has standing to go to the manager and say, “Maybe we should rethink the whole tradition.”

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            2. PineappleColada*

              Yeah, these are great points. I mean, any time there’s a non-necessary social activity that is disrupting the business environment…the advice is usually to eliminate (or adjust expectations) on the social activity.

              And with a 6-person team, I think the LW does have standing to suggest it to the boss.

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            3. Bast*

              I’m not sure shutting down the gift exchange in general would be the best thing for Liz. I am not sure of the dynamics on the office, but this could easily turn into, “Ugh, because of Liz we can’t have the gift exchange anymore” and everyone is (sub)consciously upset at Liz. This wouldn’t necessarily be fair to Liz, as she didn’t march into the office and demand the gift exchange stop, but there’s no guarantee the office would see it that way.

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              1. DrMrsC*

                I agree with Bast. I think shutting it down with such a small team could cause more widespread drama. Seriously though, after the first two alleged “ooops” gifts, how hard is it to pivot and go with a gift card? Although there seems to be a plausible risk of even a gift card being to something like a restaurant known for its Tomahawk steaks and gooey mac & cheese sides with garlic butter candles to dip your bread in!

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                1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

                  I work for a small company and the first year at Christmas after I was hired, I found out that the office staff (six or seven at that point), all bought gifts for each other. It was pretty much implied that this tradition wasn’t going to change and I knew I didn’t have the social capital to change it. (The horrified look I got when I said that was an awful lot of gifts was comical.) Over time, we’ve whittled down employees and I’ve discovered the gifts aren’t quite as extensive as I first thought.

                  But in the end, for LW, the issue is that ONE employee cannot give gifts that work for one other person with one specific issue. It’s not that the whole system is broken- it’s Marie that can’t get it together.

              2. Clisby*

                Or who knows, it might be a giant relief to a couple other people. I have enough to do around Christmas that buying 5 gifts for co-workers would be a giant pain.

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          4. Totally Minnie*

            I get where you’re trying to go with this, but if you’re buying a gift for a vegan and you’ve already got them a non-vegan gift two years in a row, it doesn’t take special gift-giving instincts to think maybe you should google “is (gift idea) vegan?”

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            1. PineappleColada*

              I mean, she trusted her coworkers advice, so I’m not sure she would Google it. Also, FWIW, if you google “is popcorn vegan?” the AI overview answer is “Yes, popcorn is vegan.”

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              1. Jessastory*

                and honestly, “is honey vegan” is a matter of hot debate so who knows what answer she’d get if she had googled it. And some vegans would say reclaimed/recycled leather is ok while others say wool isn’t. Basically, she’d have needed to run the gift idea by the specific vegan she was shopping for.

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            2. londonedit*

              It seems to me like she *did* buy vegan popcorn – but she then got mixed up when she was wrapping/labelling the gifts, so someone else ended up with the vegan popcorn and Marie ended up with the cheese version. So that could be chalked up to a genuine mistake – but on the other hand, I agree that if you know you’ve already messed up two years in a row, you should be being extra super careful to make sure you don’t mess it up again. If it was me, I’d have wrapped and labelled the vegan gift first just to be absolutely sure it was the right one.

              I can also understand why Marie is exasperated at this point – you could forgive not knowing about honey the first year, but then she didn’t check the second year to make sure leather was OK? And then, from Marie’s point of view, all she knows is that for the third year running she’s received a gift she can’t use. I’d be pissed off if I was in that situation. I probably wouldn’t go to the level of not speaking to my coworker, but I’d definitely be upset about it. Not only does it suggest the coworker doesn’t really care, but it could definitely come across as deliberate – there are people who have Strong Feelings about veganism and if I was a vegan and I received non-vegan gifts three years in a row, I’d probably feel like someone was trying to make a point.

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            1. Coffee Protein Drink*

              Was that really necessary? Other people have made similar comments about costs of such gift events and you haven’t made a point of being snotty to them.

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              1. Sweet Fancy Pancakes*

                But that’s the point- all these people saying they wouldn’t be able to/like doing it don’t actually work with this LW, and this particular LW says that it’s not a problem at her job.

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              2. Lana Kane*

                I think so, because comments that say “I couldn’t afford that” are not germane to the question. It’s irrelevant whether someone in a team of 10 could do this, when this team there are 6 people and they apparently like the gift exchange.

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        3. Blue Pen*

          I understand what you mean, and I don’t completely disagree, but for someone who follows a vegan lifestyle, receiving a leather gift is offensive—whether the gift-giver intended it or not.

          Accidents totally happen, and I wouldn’t expect everyone to closely memorize the rules of my diet and lifestyle choices. But if this a repeating pattern, and Liz has made it clear in the workplace that she is a vegan and cannot use or consume animal-based products, I don’t see how she would take this any differently. (And especially to Alison’s point, I would bet there’s more going on underneath the surface here that is heightening the reaction.)

          As a vegetarian, I find it somewhat odd that people tend to treat vegetarian or vegan lifestyles as some kind of mysterious, unknowable thing—but they’re really not that complicated. I get that it forces another to confront something about themselves that they might not want to engage with, and that can be uncomfortable, but refusing to learn the basics when it comes to gifting your colleagues is a bit strange to me.

          And maybe this is at the extreme end of things, but I can tell you that if someone were to give me a fur coat, for example, I would be *incensed* and deeply, deeply offended.

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          1. Saturday*

            Vegan here – I actually wouldn’t find it offensive. I would be unhappy with the gift of course, but when a lot of people think “vegan,” they’re thinking about what the person eats and might not think about leather. If I thought the person just made a mistake, I wouldn’t be offended – but I really wouldn’t want the leather.

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            1. Cordelia*

              I wouldn’t be offended by any of these individually – people don’t always realise honey isn’t vegan, people sometimes only think of diets when they think vegan, and ingredients such as cheese in popcorn can get missed if you are not looking for them. However I would be offended if the person got it wrong for the third year in a row, as it just doesn’t seem like they are trying to get it right.

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              1. Cat*

                Plus, taken individually, while honey is an animal product, and should be avoided unless you (general) know the recipient is specifically OK, some people who identify as vegan do make an exception for it on the basis that the bees can and will just leave if they’re unhappy, which is an option most animals don’t have to the same degree…

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                1. Catherine*

                  Honey is totally the easiest mistake here and definitely one I could see myself making. My vegan friends are pro-honey because “the bees are unionized.”

              2. Cmdrshprd*

                “However I would be offended if the person got it wrong for the third year in a row, as it just doesn’t seem like they are trying to get it right.”

                IDK maybe I am giving Marie too much credit, but I do think Marie is really trying.

                First year was general ignorance/thoughtlessness on giving honey.

                Second year Marie took Alison’s suggestion and stayed away from food products and got a collar, that happened to be leather not realizing that it wouldn’t be vegan.
                To be fair I have met some people that are/call themselves vegan in their diet, but are not following a vegan lifestyle, ie they won’t eat animals or animal products like cheese, milk, eggs, etc…, but wear some animal products, or even drink non-vegan items like wine/beer, not it not vegan.

                The third year Marie actually tried to consult with someone about a snack, so given the green light on popcorn proceeded full steam ahead with it, but failed to check individual items. I can understand this in that sometimes I get tunnel vision so if the thought is “popcorn=vegan” and coworker told me it good, they are moving forward and not thinking more about it.

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                1. A Cita*

                  You’re very generous. And I genuinely appreciate that. I’m less so because the cheese wasn’t something hidden in an ingredient list…it was jars of cheese topping, so would be obvious. At the very least, I assume she isn’t actually trying very hard.

                  Playing into my interpretation I sure is from being directly attacked about my diet (and I’m simply vegetarian–vegans get it much worse) on the regular, that it makes it hard to be generous in interpretation for the smaller slights.

                  Literally had one guy say: “Give me your reasons you don’t eat meat and I guarantee you I have a good counter argument!” Me: “No.”

                2. Cmdrshprd*

                  @A cita

                  “The problem is these gift boxes…..The popcorn set contained two jars of cheese seasoning,”

                  I don’t think it was two jars of cheese, but rather cheese seasoning, which I am imagining is a salt/pepper shaker type. A gift set/box, makes me think of those prepackaged/sealed basket/box that have stuffing in them, and you can’t always see everything super closely.

                  From a quick glance the cheese seasoning may have looked like popcorn salt other poppcorn seasoning (ranch, butter, carmel) etc…

                  Going back to being told and thinking popcorn=vegan, I can totally understand (I could have, or maybe even have done similar things) seeing a popcorn gift set/box and thinking pop=vegan this is the perfect gift, no need to inspect further.

            2. Arrietty*

              I agree. I’m vegan and I have a dog – I wouldn’t buy him a leather collar but I wouldn’t get offended by someone else doing so. It would be a bit hypocritical given how much meat I buy for him to eat.

              It’s easy to not realise about stuff like cheese powder. My own mother recently assured me that a cake she had made was vegan – I specifically checked because I thought it was surprising and she confirmed it didn’t contain milk. A week later she apologised, having realised that it did contain butter. Which is made from milk. If I’ve been vegan for a decade and my family still make mistakes like that, I’d never expect a colleague to be paying that close attention.

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          2. Nightbringer*

            I agree with you. I also question why she just didn’t ask Liz? If she was really trying as Liz to make her a list either of snacks or basic vegan rules. I’ve had ppl do that for me when wanting to food gift give (I’m vegetarian but follow some vegan things) Even if it’s genuine mistakes, the feeling of thoughtlessness stings.

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          3. HideInTheBushes*

            Different people have different approaches to vegan/vegetarian lifestyles.

            For some vegan folks factory made honey would be a no-no but local small batch honey would be ok because the ethics of it are different.

            Some folks are vegan for purely environmental reasons and are ok with certain leather goods because it’s typically more sustainable than imitation leathers.

            But then some folks feel strongly enough about the ethics of their approach to veganism that they won’t even wear fake leather/fur etc because of what it represents.

            Some folks are vegan in diet only and don’t apply the same views to clothing/furniture/shoes etc.

            It’s a super individual thing, just as a lot of people’s relationship to various social and political issues are.

            The woman in this story absolutely should have been more mindful, but let’s not pretend that there aren’t a million nuances to the way people approach vegetarian and vegan lifestyles.

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            1. MigraineMonth*

              Ironically, Marie’s gifts started in a nuanced area where there’s internal debate (honey) and ended up at cheese, which I don’t think anybody serious argues is vegan (and is debatably vegetarian if there’s rennet involved).

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              1. A Cita*

                Yes! Also people who are “vegan” only in diet typically don’t label themselves vegan, but say they eat a plant-based diet. But I get that is kind of insider-y information and hard to discern on the outside.

                But cheese? No one is confused about whether or not cheese is vegan. (And it was jars of cheese, not hidden in the ingredient list.)

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                1. Potato Potato*

                  In theory, yes. But in practice, I can’t eat dairy and I’ve been surprised by how often people get it wrong. Some of the sillier mistakes have been: buttermilk, cream cheese, and ice cream. Don’t ask me. I didn’t sign up for this allergy

                2. HideInTheBushes*

                  and “plant-based diet” is a relatively new term too, people really only started commonly using it in the last decade and depending on who you ask it can mean anything from “I am vegan” to “I eat primarily plant-based foods, but I don’t strictly exclude animal products” – so even that is filled with murky lines.

                  The cheese powder is bad. If there were like 20 powders included and 19 were vegan it still wouldn’t have been a great choice but I could understand the rationale of “well it’s just one she’ll have to chuck or regift” when it comes to a gift to/from a coworker, but it doesn’t sound like that was the case.

                  I’d wager she got caught up in the idea that all of those powder cheese flavourings are called “fake cheese” because they often don’t contain much in the way of actual cheese, but she didn’t connect the dots that this doesn’t mean it’s vegan.

            2. Media Monkey*

              but there’s definitely a “safe” area for vegan gifts where you check the ingredients/ ask in the shop/ check with the website/ order from a specific vegan gifts site (i haven’t checked but i’d be surprised if there wasn’t one! i’d suggest not food at all if you’ve got it wrong twice, but that’s not good advice for the LW.

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          4. Totally Minnie*

            You’re right that this is not some kind of secret, unknowable phenomenon. There are whole websites and communities online who post about this in public.

            I have a family member who got diagnosed with celiac. So now every time I want to buy something for this family member, I google “does this have gluten?” It’s actually really easy to find information about these kinds of things if you’re willing to try.

            I’m guessing that’s what has Liz upset. It looks like Marie is willing to try for the rest of the team, but she’s not willing to try for Liz.

            Reply ↓
            1. Carys, Lady of Weeds*

              To be fair, as someone who is gluten, dairy and nut free, there are hidden ingredients that are totally problematic for me but that don’t present that way at all – like pea protein. It gives me hives just like peanuts do and it’s an incredibly common ingredient in dairy free stuff.

              I’m not trying to give Marie a pass on her thoughtlessness, but it can be hard to train your brain to look for stuff like this if it’s not a habit. For a family member? absolutely. For a one-time-a-year-during-the-holidays coworker gift, when you have to get different gifts for five separate people? I can understand why this would be difficult. (For the record, getting it wrong three years in a row is pretty terrible, and I’m a notoriously bad gift giver. I agree with everyone saying the gift exchange should just be scrapped. )

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            2. Ineffable Bastard*

              But honey and leather are debatable and there are vegan people who are okay with them. Gluten is not debatable; either it is present in food or it is not.

              Reply ↓
              1. zillah*

                to me, though, this is actually kind of the thing – there are absolutely specific things that are debatable, but there are a lot of things that aren’t debatable at all. why go with the debatable thing rather than play it safe, which really isn’t that difficult – lots of things just straight up say they’re vegan, and if something labeled vegan is wrong, i don’t think anyone would feel slighted by that.

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            3. Coverage Associate*

              I bought a vegan family member $15 worth of fancy certified vegan chocolate for Christmas. It was meant to be shared with another family member who is allergic to dairy, but I realized that it had an additional allergen when I was wrapping it.

              My point is if you must give food gifts, there are foods that make good gifts that are labeled vegan. There’s also items labeled “vegan leather.”

              I have a third family member who has a deadly peanut allergy, so I have been dealing with this most of my life, so I am mostly used to reading labels very carefully, but I messed up this Christmas, though I caught it just in time. But if all I had to worry about was veganism, I would just find something labeled vegan.

              Also, coming from a family with so many food restrictions, I wouldn’t have suggested fancy popcorn. Cheese is a common popcorn flavor, and the caramel and butter flavors could also be a problem.

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        4. WillowSunstar*

          Right, I’d be more likely to get them a gift card to a store I know they actually shop at, especially someone with food restrictions.

          Reply ↓
        5. SleepyPlants*

          The five thoughtful gifts thing makes me wonder if this is an issue for everyone else in the office or just Mario.

          If the other 4 coworkers all manage to find simple yet pleasant vegan gifts for Liz each year without drama, than it really seems like Marie is a jerk or absolutely clueless.

          Reply ↓
      2. Yorick*

        And if the gift box came with a separate seasoning, I could see giving it to a vegan and thinking they just wouldn’t use that bottle of seasoning

        Reply ↓
        1. duinath*

          I would like to gently advise that anyone reading this do not give someone a gift and just figure they won’t use part of it, be it due to allergies, food issues (moral or otherwise) or religious or political leanings.

          Reply ↓
          1. ShanShan*

            Yeah, I mean, vegans think the production of cheese is unethical, not the eating of it. Having it in your possession is just as bad as having it in your stomach.

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          2. FromCanada*

            I mean – yes, you’re correct. However, every year I get given things I cannot use / eat due to allergies and I’ve only ever responded by saying “Thank you”. If it’s in my personal life – that would be one thing, but at work – I just say Thank you and move on. My kids get lots of chocolate nut things this time of year.

            Reply ↓
            1. ShanShan*

              That is certainly one of the wide variety of responses a reasonable person could choose to have in this scenario.

              Reply ↓
            2. duinath*

              Oh absolutely, a thank you is the normal response.

              But if you want to give a good gift, go into it with the intention that all of it will be something the recipient will like.

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            3. Venus*

              I think it varies from the perspective of my boss gets everyone a small gift of food every year and it’s the same for everyone so if one of us doesn’t like it then we regift it. It’s a different thing if the gifts are thoughtfully different for each person and you get something where you know they can’t consume half of it.

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            4. Saturday*

              Agree that’s the correct response – but if someone knows of your allergies and just figures it’s fine because you won’t use that part of the gift or whatever, that’s a bummer.

              Reply ↓
            5. Anita Brake*

              I, too, have gotten things I can’t use, like nuts, smoked salmon, and dried mushrooms (not allergic, I just don’t like them) When this happens to me, I remember “hey, someone thought of me. Someone took time out of their life to think of me and to buy me a gift.” Remember the old saying “It’s the thought that counts?” That may be an unpopular opinion here, but it’s what I believe. I had no clue, until I read this article, that honey is not vegan (and not vegetarian). I at first stopped to wonder what was wrong with the dog collar, before remembering that leather is made of cow. When Marie gasped at Liz opening the wrong present, to me, it would have shown she was surprised and actually did mess up the name tags. I have personally had a social situation or two where I just keep “messing up,” for fear of getting it wrong again. So I don’t see nefarious intent here. I see someone who may not be up to meeting the level of gift-giving expectations at this particular establishment, but not a personal attack. And when it comes to the situation where a manager needs to dig into a situation over something like this, with all due respect to anyone who disagrees, I’d say to hell with gift-giving. It’s not worth all that; we’re supposed to be working at work.

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              1. lanfy*

                The problem with ‘it’s the thought that counts’ is that three years of uncomfortable gifts that conflict with the recipient’s ethics, plus an additional mistake in exactly the same genre, do not say good things about the thought.

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            6. Lange*

              The issue at hand is not one gift that misses the mark. It’s three consecutive years of gifts from one person that go against a fundamental belief. Gifts that could be part of other micro trangressions.

              Reply ↓
              1. Tea Monk*

                Yea, I could see if everyone but one person had figured the vegan thing out and just this one person keeps messing up… I’d be upset, even if I thought it wasn’t important enough to tell my boss

                Reply ↓
            7. Been There*

              If everyone gets the same gift, absolutely. I’ve given my parents lots of bottle of wines because I don’t drink wine, but it’s a very common general present.

              But these are supposed to be thoughtful gifts, specific to the receiver. She messed up 3 years in a row by picking gifts that at best are questionable for vegans.

              Reply ↓
          3. Jaina Solo*

            This! Gifts probably shouldn’t be given at all–holiday cards could be a nice approach instead. But there are so many potential issues with gifting someone who has a limited food/goods diet.
            As someone with a food allergy, and tree/flower allergies, some socially acceptable gifts like a bouquet or a box of baked goods is dangerous. With the flowers, it’s mostly just getting totally stuffed up and needing a ton of decongestants but with the food allergy it’s worse. If I look at the gifts from that perspective, I would be frustrated too if I kept getting the thing I’m allergic to. The difference being that vegans typically choose that diet…or am I mistaken on that? So it’s less dangerous and more “you don’t understand my lifestyle” which is still a problem.
            At any rate, I’d just stop having gifts given in the office. We don’t do that at my job, although some years my boss will try to send us a gift card or some kind of thing to show their appreciation for us. But we don’t have mandatory gift giving so none of these issues.

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            1. Meaningful hats*

              Regarding your question of choice – sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. I’m on an extremely restrictive medical diet that happens to omit all meat and dairy. I sometimes find it easier to say “I’m vegan” to people who don’t want or need to hear the whole story, even though I’m not subscribing to the entire ‘vegan lifestyle’ by choice.

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              1. Morning Flowers*

                Same. I never set out to be vegan, but right now I’m an involuntarily vegan celiac for the most too-long-for-this-post reasons imaginable, and yeah, just don’t even try to give me food, and yes it *is* frustrating when people try anyway.

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              2. MamaSarah*

                I can’t help but wonder if, even in this tiny group of six, there are others who are ready to change up the tradition. It seems like A LOT.

                Reply ↓
            2. MigraineMonth*

              Most vegans choose to be so, so giving them a non-vegan gift is unlikely to be dangerous. However, that diet choice is often tied to moral, ethical, religious, spiritual or cultural beliefs, so I’d say it’s a bit more fraught than “you don’t understand my lifestyle”.

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            3. Azure Jane Lunatic*

              My old office had some people eating plant-based food for ethical reasons (I think), and one person who had a bad enough milk allergy and a few other food restrictions that it was easiest for her to just request a vegan meal.

              Reply ↓
        2. Tea Time*

          So the recipient just gets . . . plain popcorn?

          This reminds me of my shared household in college where two of us were vegetarian, and the other two thought that when it was their turn to cook it was acceptable to offer curried lamb and rice, with some of it made with out the lamb. So we got . . . white rice with curry powder.

          Reply ↓
            1. A Cita*

              Flip side, I had an omnivore friend assume I as a vegetarian wasn’t getting enough protein (probably true), and made my birthday cake with protein powder and didn’t tell me. I found out when I tried to swallow down that brick made of sawdust; she found out not to do that when we both realized upon questioning that the protein powder she used was NOT vegetarian.

              Reply ↓
          2. Blue Pen*

            I’m a vegetarian, too, and I sincerely don’t mean this as a dig to omnivores, but they generally do not think in these terms. Instead of “how can I be inclusive with the meal,” it’s “oh, just take the main thing out and be happy with it.”

            Not quite the same thing, but my (otherwise intelligent) mother offered me a turkey burger the other day, and when I gave her a puzzled look, she said “what? It’s not meat.” It took her a few seconds to catch up. This is a whole other rabbit hole I won’t go down, but many people have completely disassociated from what meat is and where it comes from.

            Reply ↓
            1. Artemesia*

              it is often so easy to adapt though. I make muligatawny soup for a soup party — the curried base with apples and vegetables is made and then one pot is made with vegetable broth and chickpeas and the other pot with chicken broth and chicken. It is easy to do. A curry lamb dish could be made with vegetables and separated and one batch have something like chick peas or lentils etc and the other with the lamb added.

              Reply ↓
            2. In the provinces*

              It’s very common for people to understand “meat” as a synonym for “beef”, which is where this sort of behavior, infuriating to vegetarians, comes from.

              Reply ↓
              1. WillowSunstar*

                Especially since (at least in the US), there’s a major religion here that excludes all meat except fish at certain times of the year. However, this has resulted in many people over the year mistakenly thinking that people on vegetarian diets would eat fish because that’s what said restriction allowed. And some people who call themselves vegetarians do actually eat fish once in a while if there’s no other option (even though that’s technically pescatarian).

                Reply ↓
                1. House On The Rock*

                  Yep – my mom is a vegetarian, and has been for decades. My MiL can never remember she doesn’t eat fish. We finally had an ah-ha moment where my spouse explained it as “she doesn’t eat any animals”, because MiL has always equated meat with what you can/can’t have on Fridays/during Lent.

                2. A Cita*

                  Ah yes, fish. When confronted with fish as a potential option, I always ask: “Is fish a plant?” That typically clears it up but then makes it confounding when talking about mushrooms. ;)

                3. TigressInTech*

                  Yeah, I have an older family member who calls herself vegetarian and still eats fish. Very confusing when there are also those of us who are vegetarian and *don’t* eat fish at the same party.

                  There’s also a joke about this in the Avatar: The Last Airbender series. When a fisherman offers the main character (vegetarian) some fish in payment for a task, and the main character politely declines on the basis that he doesn’t eat meat, the fisherman replies, “Fish ain’t meat!” So it’s a pervasive enough attitude that it made it into a children’s show in 2005.

              2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                I suspect a large part of this comes from grouping in grocery stores and restaurants, where you’ll see sections for “meat” (red meat; beef, pork, sometimes lamb), “poultry”, and “fish”. If someone is operating with this mental model, and hear “I don’t eat meat”, they’ll think “nothing from the meat section of the menu/store”.

                To say nothing of the “only actual chunks of meat count” mentality that leads to “vegetarian” soup made with chicken stock, or refried beans cooked with lard.

                Reply ↓
            3. doreen*

              I think that might be part of the issue with honey – I know that generally vegans don’t use any animal products ( even though I know a few people who just use “vegan” as shorthand for their eating habits ) but I’m not 100% sure I would remember where honey comes from when buying gifts.

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            4. Freya*

              Amongst other things, I’m lactose intolerant, but for catering purposes I phrase it as ‘dairy free’ because no one but me knows on any given day how much lactose will set my guts off. I have had to explain so many times that ‘milk solids’ is dairy, and therefore most margarines are not dairy free.

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          3. louvella*

            At a conference I went to recently the vegan options on the buffet were 1) curried vegetables 2) rice and 3) a bell pepper stuffed with rice. So vegetables, rice, vegetable stuffed with more rice.

            Reply ↓
        3. marginalia*

          There are some people who don’t eat animal products simply for health-based reasons, but for most vegans there is an ethical component. Receiving a gift that contains animal products (and has generated a profit for the company selling those animal products) would not be appreciated by most vegans.

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      3. LL*

        Yeah, this is weird. How do you not know that vegans can’t eat cheese? Although, tbh, I’d never give a coworker a food gift if I knew they had food restrictions. There are too many ways for that to go wrong. And since I don’t have any food restrictions, I don’t usually check ingredient lists so I don’t know what all the scientific names of things mean.

        Reply ↓
      4. Estrella the Starfish*

        I can see that generally, but most people would at least check whether the cheese seasoning was vegan, even without the two previous mess ups. And once you’ve made that mistake twice, most people would be extra cautious.

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    2. Artemesia*

      One is happenstance, twice is coincidence and thrice is enemy action. That seems to fit here. There is really no excuse for the ‘mixup’ — seriously? Who doesn’t take care having screwed the pooch twice. And there is no way if I were Marie I would be buying food for Liz — there are a thousand other options for nominal holiday gift exchanges.

      Reply ↓
      1. amoeba*

        I mean, also, actual vegan food (and drink) is pretty easy to find, at least where I live! Like coffee, the vast majority of tea, nuts, there’s a huge selection of vegan chocolates available even from standard brands… or you just buy specifically from a vegan brand where it actually says “vegan” on the label? This really doesn’t seem like something where you need to search and google to find the one thing that might be suitable, there’s so much out there!

        Reply ↓
          1. Artemesia*

            yup. same with non gluten. We have a French friend who can’t eat gluten and even in the land of baguettes and croissants, I have no trouble finding gluten free starch/bread options and lovely pavlovas for dessert.

            Reply ↓
        2. ChubCucumber*

          She could literally buy Liz a box of nice pears or oranges. Very holiday and vegan. There are so many options.

          Reply ↓
            1. Random Academic Cog*

              In keeping with her inability to get it quite right, she’d probably choose figs as the gift, so even a fruit basket might not work.

              Reply ↓
              1. Jamjari*

                Many vegans (like yours truly) would be fine with figs since it’s about not harming animals – if the wasp wants to crawl up in there to lay its eggs, that’s its choice. However, some are not.

                Reply ↓
            2. WishIWasATimeTraveller*

              Unless it includes figs or avocados…
              (figs needs wasps to die in order to produce fruit and many avocado farms use farmed beehives to pollinate the trees)

              Reply ↓
              1. amoeba*

                I just looked this up and it seems that “the vast majority” of figs produced in the US are actually self-pollinating varieties that don’t require wasps at all. (Also, “need wasps to die” is a bit misleading – the ones that do require wasps have a mutually beneficial relationship with them in which their life cycles are connected. The wasps literally couldn’t exist without the figs, either!)

                Reply ↓
        3. Coverage Associate*

          As someone from a family with a variety of food restrictions, the vegan family member is a lot easier to buy and prepare food for than the family member with a long list of allergies.

          But my spouse won’t buy packaged food for my vegan family member. We have this tradition of sandwiches for Christmas, and I can’t send my spouse to choose vegan bread. So I kind of get that some people find it hard to stick within veganism, even with labels and certifications, but then choose another gift.

          Reply ↓
        4. Estrella the Starfish*

          And so much snack popcorn is vegan, most seems to be now. I feel you’d really need to try to find a cheese flavour one, vs sweet and salty, chilli and caramel, which are much more common than cheese.

          Reply ↓
      2. anonymous anteater*

        well we know Marie is clueless about what is and isn’t vegan. I could see a popcorn kit, with different flavoring options (cinnamon, taco seasoning, cheese powder…), so maybe the cheese didn’t feature prominently on the packaging? But I totally get that Liz would find it hard to give Marie the benefit of the doubt. I also still have colleagues who are like ‘it is sooo complicated to understand what our vegan colleagues will eat’, and then the part they don’t grasp is no dairy. It’s like the most basic fact. If you don’t get that, are you trying?

        Reply ↓
      3. Resentful Oreos*

        I think I’d just be getting gift cards and letting the recipients pick what they want. Unless that is verboten in the office gift exchange, which is dumb, because gift cards are the best gifts, IMO.

        Reply ↓
        1. Artemesia*

          So many options: a candle, a scarf, a pack of nice colored pencils or markers and a sketch pad, a kitchen item like one of those fancy garlic rockers or citrus squeezers, a book, one of those calendars with clever sayings for each day or cartoons or puzzles etc, a Champagne keeper cork ad infinitim. the options for modest gifts are endless that don’t involve animal products. It doesn’t even have to be wonderful and what she wants — it just doesn’t have to insult her.

          Reply ↓
          1. Holidazed*

            Candle – make sure it does not contain beeswax or tallow
            Scarf – make sure it contains no silk or wool
            Though most of the other suggestions would be harder (but not impossible!) to mess up, it shows there are more layers of nuance for the uninformed to navigate. So I think googling or buying only something labeled loudly and proudly vegan is a fine idea.

            Reply ↓
              1. TigressInTech*

                Strictly speaking, beeswax is not vegan because it comes from an animal, but some vegans are okay with it. Some (not all) vegans wish to not use anything from animals ever (regardless of whether or not it harms the animal). Service dogs, horseback riding, and owning pets are subjects of fierce debate in some online communities (because, to paraphrase, the animals cannot give clear and enthusiastic verbal consent to be owned/benefited from). Some vegans are happy to wear decades-old fur coats and leather. It really comes down to a personal choice, but I would steer clear of beeswax anyway if I didn’t know someone’s specific views on it.

                Reply ↓
          2. TJ Morrison*

            It’s still possible to trip over these suggestions. Does the candle have beeswax, tallow, or lanolin in it? Is the scarf silk? Was animal glue used in any of the office supplies? It’s probably safest to make sure it is specifically labeled as vegan, but that can take a while if you are browsing shelves.

            Reply ↓
            1. Resentful Oreos*

              I think a book or kitchen gadget would be hard to mess up. TBH, though, if making sure something that is not obviously an animal product (food, leather) is vegan means a lot of label reading, a gift card is probably the best option.

              Reply ↓
              1. amoeba*

                I’d say a beeswax candle or a silk/wool scarf are pretty obviously not vegan, actually… (Although yes, I’m aware that there are vegans who are fine with them, but going by the literal, most common definition – those are animal products, full stop.)

                Reply ↓
      4. DataWonk*

        She even messed up with the collar (which is not food).

        I would consult with another human if I messed up twice like that!

        Reply ↓
        1. acl*

          She did consult! And still messed up. Both in giving the wrong gift and the gift she intended was still not vegan due to the toppings.

          Perhaps one thing that might help, a little, is for Mary to do some research, and talk to Liz about what she learned, how she realizes that she was totally off base and ill-informed previously. But she should have done that after the first gift. (I know, where’s that time machine when you need it?)

          Reply ↓
          1. Coverage Associate*

            I posted above: gift quality popcorn was bad advice. Cheese is a common popcorn flavor, and even if it’s not real cheese, it usually has whey or something. It’s not an excuse, but it was a weird recommendation to me.

            Reply ↓
    3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I was thinking “just stop buying food for her!” But the leather collar…she sucks at gift giving. I don’t get it. Go on the internet and google gifts for vegans.
      I would feel like she’s doing it on purpose, too!

      Reply ↓
      1. H3llifIknow*

        Yeah since they all buy for everyone, I’d like to know what Marie’s “track record” is with others being happy with her gifts to them. Is she that clueless with everyone and it just stings more for Liz because they’re so antithetical to her being Vegan, or is everyone else thinking “whoa hit it out of the park this year, Marie!”

        Reply ↓
        3. Kyrielle*

          Also, is anyone *else* blowing gifts for Liz? Sounds like not. Marie could maybe have looked at what they give and just steal one of the ideas.

          Reply ↓
          1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            I wonder that, too. Nobody else missed the mark? I believe that everyone was successful, but it is an interesting detail I’d like to know.

            Reply ↓
        4. Artemesia*

          in this environment I would give everyone the same thing (except adapting for the vegan or if food, the gluten free person etc); the one group I am in where we give gifts every year, each person gives everyone the same thing each particular year.

          Reply ↓
      2. Anonys*

        Yeah, there’s the ubiquitous candle, the ever popular gift for woman we don’t know well enough to make a more personal gift – also not vegan if it’s made with beeswax.

        The most kind reading is that Marie is genuinely clueless about the concept of vegan and not super detail oriented. OP seems to know what vegan means and could offer to check the gift next time (as in check the actual packaging/purchase link) to avoid further drama.

        Reply ↓
        1. Anonys*

          also, Marie could also commit to only buy something that explicitly has a “vegan” label somewhere on the packaging.

          Reply ↓
          1. JB (not in Houston)*

            or even googling something? There are plenty of lists online of gifts for vegans. If you’re even halfheartedly interested in getting someone a vegan gift, it’s not *actually* that hard even if you aren’t sure what’s vegan.

            Reply ↓
          1. KHB*

            OP can advise Marie to do the same check herself (i.e., look for the word “vegan” somewhere on the packaging or item listing, and if it’s not there, do not buy). If Marie is a literate adult, there’s no reason she can’t do that.

            Reply ↓
        3. Despachito*

          I’d rather get nothing than a candle. And I hate generic gifts “suitable” to men or women.

          I would be a spoilsport but I would definitely opt out of that gift giving. It is apparently a source of stress rather than enjoyment, and who needs this at work.

          Reply ↓
          1. Miss Fire*

            I believe they were referencing the SNL song about “just giving a candle” (“The gift of having a gift to give away…”)

            Reply ↓
              1. House On The Rock*

                This year my spouse gave away a candle set we’d had for years in his office White Elephant exchange…only to come home with yet another candle. At least the one he got was smaller and smelled better.

                Reply ↓
        4. Zephy*

          “The most kind reading is that Marie is genuinely clueless about the concept of vegan”

          In the Information Age, ignorance is a choice. Marie’s had what sounds like 3 years to ask Siri what veganism is, or even type “gifts for vegans” into Google.

          Reply ↓
          1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            Not to mention look at Marie’s desk and see what she likes. Even if it’s empty, that tells you something. She doesn’t like clutter. Get her a calendar. Dang.

            Reply ↓
          2. Yankees fans are awesome*

            That is so unnecessarily harsh. We’re all clueless about something or other no matter how much info. is available. Good grief, the sense of entitlement is strong.

            Reply ↓
            1. ShanShan*

              We’re not all clueless about something we’ve already done wrong and needed to apologize for twice. Remaining clueless at that point is a choice.

              It’s not entitled to expect that someone who apologizes to you for something will make an effort to avoid it in the future. That’s an expectation of common courtesy.

              Reply ↓
            2. Been There*

              Choosing to remain clueless after messing up twice is just that, a choice. Put some work into the relationship and do research to not mess up a third time.

              Reply ↓
      4. Despachito*

        I would reconsider the gift giving thing altogether.

        Having to investigate what is vegan and what is not is something I may do for a relative or a friend. Not a random coworker I am not invested in. I am very surprised how many people think Marie is a jerk – my take is she is bending over backwards for a person she doesn’t care so much for.

        Reply ↓
        2. Cordelia*

          really? you wouldn’t make any effort at all to try and find a gift that your random coworker would like? Probably better you opt out of the gift giving altogether tbh…

          Reply ↓
        3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          I think for three years she’s been bending over backward to impress someone she does want to impress and has failed spectacularly.
          I don’t know which is worse!

          Reply ↓
          1. knitted feet*

            This is what’s getting me about this letter – Marie IS putting thought into the gifts, she’s just doing a really terrible job! A personalised pet collar takes way more thought than just searching “vegan gifts”. And yet she has this block about actually understanding the basics of veganism.

            I think some people imagine it must be so unspeakably complex they could never understand it, so they go all helpless and don’t even try. When really, a few minutes of thought would generate all sorts of ideas, because the world is full of things that aren’t made from animal products. Books! Stationery! A puzzle! Some nice soft socks in cotton or bamboo! An ornament! A nice pen! A soy candle! A gift card! A mug! A little craft kit! Literally any snack labelled ‘vegan’!

            Reply ↓
            1. MigraineMonth*

              Like any community, there are some hard-core vegans who I’m sure would be very difficult to shop for, mostly because we’re really bad at actually labeling our ingredient sources. (Is the resin on these wooden puzzle pieces made with resin from lac insects? Are these oranges coated with bees wax? Is this sugar produced with bone char?)

              However, there’s no indication that Liz is anywhere near that strict, and remarkably Marie’s gifts seem to be getting less vegan-ish every year.

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              1. knitted feet*

                Oh for sure those people exist. But yes, there’s no reason to think Liz is that strict – and crucially those things are obscure enough to at least not read as an insult. I know tons of people would never have thought twice about offering honey, even, and it sounds like Liz was gracious about that one. But following up with animal skin and cheese? Those were avoidable if Marie had pointed a couple of braincells in the right direction.

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              2. Estrella the Starfish*

                Yeah, honey is the most understandable, people don’t really think about honey that much. But leather and then cheese? Even if she finds veganism that baffling, most people recognise cheese as not vegan.

                Reply ↓
                1. DisgruntledPelican*

                  The leather is more plausible to me. A lot of people who don’t spend any time around vegans don’t know it’s not just a diet for many.

            2. Xanna*

              I’m gifted non-vegan things all the time, and honestly that in and of itself doesn’t really bother me as I can just regift. I try to be relatively low-key about my veganism, so really am not at all offended if people don’t realize, or assume I’m vegetarian instead of vegan, or whatever.

              However, the whole song and dance about how “complicated and unusual” my dietary requirements are, which almost always has an undertone of othering/judgement, followed by a big show of how much effort they’re putting in to accommodate me, followed by a flop that doesn’t meet my dietary restrictions after all is pretty frustrating.

              Just reads as rude, performative, and like the person doing the preparation is somehow incapable of doing basic research, which then puts the recipient in an awkward situation where you’re like “wow, thanks so much for all this work…that being said, a fish is an animal, so I definitely can’t eat this sorry.”

              Reply ↓
      7. Lacey*

        Right. I like to give thoughtful gifts, but after biffing it the first time I would have looked up gift ideas for vegans and picked one, even if it felt generic.

        Reply ↓
    4. Cara*

      If I were Liz, I’d be believing that Marie is going home and laughing at how she’s getting away with this. Asking about vegan snacks and then getting a version that has something so obviously not vegan feels really brash. We’re adults with internet access. Once she’d made the mistake with the honey, you’d think going forward she’d take the 10 seconds of care it would take to open Google…

      Reply ↓
    5. Lemons*

      This whole situation has the flavor of “why do those vegans make everything SO HARD!”

      I do not believe Marie is trying hard to accommodate Liz like she claims, because it’s beyond easy to google “vegan gifts” or check the contents of a popcorn multipack to see if it contains very common non-vegan popcorn ingredients like cheese and butter, or just like…do a gift card. I’d bet my vegan hat Marie makes comments about Liz’s veganism at other times, which is why Liz’z reaction seems outsized here.

      Reply ↓
      1. Devious Planner*

        Your last sentence, 100%. Liz’s reaction is a bit much if the issue is only 3 gifts over 3 years. But if those three years have also included regular side comments about veganism? Of course the gifts would be taken the wrong way.

        Reply ↓
      2. Dust Bunny*

        Yeah, this feels like targeted plausible deniability. Except, as noted, it’s not hard to find vegan snacks and gifts if you give one iota of an F.

        Reply ↓
      3. Annony*

        I don’t think that her reaction is actually outsized. She was essentially given FOUR gifts that were not vegan, one of which was straight up meat. How can someone “accidentally” give a vegan non vegan gifts 4 times out of 3? I think Marie probably is low key bullying Liz and hiding behind “It’s so hard to know what is vegan” and “It was a simple mistake”.

        Reply ↓
      4. MassMatt*

        She’s either thoughtless or being actively malicious in a very deniable way. In general I go with stupidity over malice in lieu of real evidence to the contrary.

        But either way, her gift giving is doing far more harm than good, at least where this coworker is concerned. Why is she giving everyone gifts? Is this something everyone in the office is doing, or just her? Maybe gift-giving is not a good thing for her to be doing?

        Reply ↓
        2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          They all gives gifts to each other. So eight people give eight gifts.
          How THAT has been a thing for more than two years is beyond me.
          My group of 8 dropped it year three.

          Reply ↓
          1. Estrella the Starfish*

            Yeah, even without the Marie situation this is crying out for a secret Santa, having to get 8 workplace gifts is ridiculous. And then you can rig it so Marie never gets Liz, win win.

            Reply ↓
      5. Tea Time*

        >>This whole situation has the flavor of “why do those vegans make everything SO HARD!”

        Exactly. I think this is weaponized incompetence. “I JUST don’t underSTAND this VEGan thing!” Because deep down she doesn’t want to understand, because she thinks it’s stupid.

        So neither outright clueless nor outright hostility, but a self-deceiving combination of the two.

        Reply ↓
        1. Moopsy*

          I’m guessing there has to be something like that having been said before all this. I’ve been the recipient of the repeated terrible gifts by family and close friends so I wouldn’t even register bad gifts from a coworker, unless it was coupled with some comments that made me think the actions were deliberate.

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      6. Looper*

        I have never worked anywhere except for super-artsy spaces where I did not hear negative comments about veganism, and this includes in workplaces where no one is vegan. I will bet that Liz has to deal with a lot of stuff related to her dietary choices and this gift thing is the final straw. A leather dog collar? C’mon, you could learn her pet’s name but not do a single Google search of “what don’t vegans like”?

        Reply ↓
      7. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        Yeah. “Surely no-one can really expect me to take seriously this silly nonsense” is the vibes I’m getting. Like she thinks it’s beneath her to have to care about such unimportant stuff. Seems disrespectful, low-key hostile. I can see how enough of that would qualify as bullying.

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    6. Tired*

      I have a dairy allergy. It’s amazing how many people really can’t seem to wrap their head around dietary restrictions. I’ve had people buy me things that are gluten-free (but contain milk) thinking that “gluten-free” was somehow the same as “dairy-free,” given me things that contain cheese, told me something was “dairy-free” when it contained sour cream… and certain people who I know would never purposefully do me harm have done these things repeatedly. Not sure why but some people seem to have a real mental block around this stuff.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jaina Solo*

        I have a nut allergy and legit mentioned it to a waiter and got back “oh, gluten free?” And this has happened more than once. The other fun ones are people, like flight attendants, who just stare at you and don’t put into place the accommodation their airline offers.

        I think, as a mid-millennial, that society wasn’t educated on allergies until very recently so most people just don’t understand it. Add to that the decrease in empathy that seems to be more prevalent, and it’s not a great world for allergy sufferers. Ironic, considering we didn’t sign up for this life we’re just stuck managing the cards we’re dealt.

        I’ve had legit fights with my parents over what is/isn’t safe since they couldn’t understand how some of it worked. I had to literally tell one of them I wished I’d never been born if a $1 candy was more important than my ability to breathe; only then did it register what I was dealing with. I expect people to mess it up because it doesn’t affect them. And honestly, it’s shown me who is/isn’t good for my life–if you can’t care about something that would kill me but not harm you, at least while you’re in my presence, then maybe we aren’t a good fit. (I don’t mean they have to panic or wrap me in bubble wrap, but like don’t gift me a Snickers and think we’re good.)

        Reply ↓
        1. Moopsy*

          The amount of times my own mother has given me cheese when I have never eaten it. She vaguely remembers one of her children likes cheese, just not which one.

          It’s left me with zero expectation that anyone else would remember it.

          Reply ↓
      3. Lacey*

        People are wild. A friend’s kid has SEVERE allergies to a bunch of stuff. When he was little she would always tell people not to give him any food – because it was almost a full time job for HER to keep track of what he could eat. She didn’t expect other people to know.

        But while not giving him food would have been very easy for people – they wouldn’t do it. They kept offering him food, which she would have to snatch away to keep him from dying. And, of course, being very young he didn’t understand that and would then be super upset.

        Reply ↓
    7. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Not to excuse Marie, but even vegans aren’t always in the know of what’s vegan and what’s not. And not all vegans choose to follow the same strictest sense of principles. For instance, sugar. White sugar is technically not vegan in some instances, but I know vegans who are content eating it though they wouldn’t eat honey or cheese.

      I think it more likely that Marie just sucks at gift giving. Personally, I’d stay away from all food and clothing if I were Marie.

      Reply ↓
        1. MC*

          And some are fine using leather because it’s more environmentally friendly (“vegan leather” is pleather rebranded – it’s almost always just plastic). Cheese-flavored popcorn seasoning may not contain any dairy at all. It’s never as one-size-fits-all as it seems.

          Reply ↓
    8. Beth*

      Yeah, OP, you’re giving Marie too much benefit of the doubt here. It’s not hard to buy vegan gifts nowadays. She could read the ingredients on the label; she could google whether X ingredient is vegan; to be really sure she got it right, she could have bought something that was specifically labeled and advertised as vegan. She’s chosen to do none of that. Despite her annual apologies, it doesn’t look like she really wants to take steps to change.

      If I was your office manager, I’d be seriously considering shutting down the gift exchange–it’s causing a lot of tension and hurt, and that’s bad for team cohesion.

      Reply ↓
    9. e271828*

      The cheese is telling us that Marie is not being thoughtful about this at all. She’d better stick to fancy pens and plain stationery for gifts.

      Reply ↓
    10. JMC*

      So it’s cheese powder in separate jars, which is a problem why? Give the jars away to someone else to add to whatever they want, problem solved.

      Reply ↓
      1. ShanShan*

        Vegans also… don’t want… other people… to eat cheese… either?

        Like, they’re not going to run around grabbing it out of people’s mouths, but this is like telling a hardcore Catholic who was given a gift certificate for a free abortion to just give it to someone else if they don’t want it.

        Reply ↓
        1. Xanna*

          Cackling – this is amazing.

          Also agreed. Like personally as a vegan, I give non-vegan gifts to people and don’t mind, but “here’s your gift – half of it is for you to enjoy and the other half is a task to find a new home for this random food product you’ll never consume,” is a bad gift, period.

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    11. JSPA*

      I suppose I can see that some people don’t understand that honey is an animal product. Some people don’t group insects with “real animals.” Some might figure it’s flower nectar that’s transformed by bees into honey, rather than being entirely something bees produce out of their own bodies (though really, who thinks that bees are incidental to honey?). Or that bees don’t suffer in producing honey (which, yeah, I have met semi-vegans who are cool with honey).

      But how does anyone not know that leather is the skin of an animal?

      If you’re not sure about the difference between “vegan” and “vegetarian” or between “vegan” and “biodynamic” or between “vegan” and any other category–to the point that you’ve gotten it wrong multiple times–how incompetent can you be, to not use the internet to figure out where you’re going wrong?

      If Marie is consistently that incompetent, how is she staying employed? And if she’s not generally that incompetent, how and why should Liz assume that Marie is taking even the most minimal amount of care, in selecting her gift?

      Even if the gift selection is not intended as a direct barb, “WTF, Vegans, who even knows, Ron, do you know what Vegans eat” (with a side of, “I stopped caring when she turned up her nose at the special local honey”?) isn’t responsible, it isn’t respectful, and it isn’t adequate.

      If you accidentally repeatedly act like a jerk to just one coworker, in an 100% avoidable way, you DO need to try harder.

      Reply ↓
    12. Fish Microwaver*

      Marie really isn’t the sharpest tool. After the honey incident, could could easily have researched what being vegan means. Since some vegans are more rigorous than others, she could have asked Liz about her experience/position. A gift card to a vegan grocer or cafe would have been safer and probably well received.

      Reply ↓
    13. Limmy*

      Who on planet Earth isn’t aware that honey, leather, and cheese are non-vegan?

      Leather is literally animal skin.

      Honestly most gifts aren’t made of dead animals. It’s so easy to just buy a candle or a book or something. Giving a vegan dead animal skin just feels very pointed.

      Reply ↓
  2. T.N.H*

    I’m sure it’s true that many do not know that honey and leather aren’t vegan, but wouldn’t she have Googled it? Especially after the first mistake, I think she should have put a lot more thought into this.

    P.S. Do not get her wine, which is mostly not vegan.

    Reply ↓
      1. Rose*

        I think asking the recipient is the right call here, since not all vegans have the same standards for what does and doesn’t count. I have a good friend who used to be vegan for environmental reasons, and they still ate honey (since beekeeping is a far more sustainable practice than factory farming), and even wore leather if it was thrifted or recycled. If you don’t know the person’s preferences, it’s best to google it or just err on the side of no animal products—but if you can ask, ask!

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        1. br_612*

          Exactly. Some vegans eat honey and wear wool because neither of those harm the animal. In fact, because of the way we’ve bred sheep, some breeds NEED to be sheared for their own health and comfort. And I know a vegan who kept a couple Angora rabbits as free roaming house pets and used their fur to spin yarn. She knew for a fact the animals were treated well, and would also buy other types of wool yarn from smaller farms where she knew their practices. That’s not super relevant, just a fun anecdote lol.

          But some vegans are strict “no animal products whatsoever”. I always err on the side of no animal products until I know for sure otherwise.

          Reply ↓
          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Most breeds of sheep need to be sheared – the vast, vast majority, definitely all commercial breeds. There are a few primitive sheep breeds, such as shetland and soay, which still shed their fleece, but those are a tiny fraction of all sheep.

            Reply ↓
            1. Ellen N.*

              I have never met a vegan who is vegan for animal welfare reasons who would wear wool.

              The concept of a vegan lifestyle is that animals are not ours to exploit.

              Breeding sheep specifically so that they must be sheared is antithetical to that view.

              Reply ↓
                1. A Simple Narwhal*

                  There’s also some vegans that are ok with vintage fur and leather purchased second hand. The idea being that they are not contributing to the fur/leather industry since it was created so long ago, and it is infinitely more sustainable than buying new faux fur or pleather since it’s essentially just plastic.

                  Not everyone agrees but it’s just another “no one size fits all” example.

              2. Sillysaurus*

                I know several vegans who only eat strictly vegan but will wear wool or recycled leather. People are different!

                Reply ↓
              3. Rose*

                Ehh, I think it varies. Plenty of vegans won’t wear wool at all, but some don’t have a problem with it. Or they’ll only wear wool that comes from small independently-owned farms that treat their animals well. Some vegans are opposed to factory farming but not small-scale farming, especially if the animals aren’t being raised for meat.

                Reply ↓
              5. Xanna*

                Now you have – ethical vegan of nearly 2 decades, and wearing a wool sweater as I type this!

                A pair of leather boots or a nice wool sweater from the thrift shop doesn’t support the demand for more of these products, and last long enough that I’m not constantly throwing away manmade materials that will still be sat in a landfill for several decades, or supporting the huge amount of human rights issues that are often intrinsic to producing new clothing at an accessible price-point.

                People love finding gotchas of vegans not being vegan enough, which is why I think this isn’t really talked about much in online vegan spaces (which can be incredibly judgey and toxic). In my experience, as I’ve aged, I’ve gotten a lot more comfortable with the reality that veganism is about reducing harm and thriving to live an ethical life, but the goal of living a life that has absolutely no adverse effect on the creatures and environment around us, especially in a capitalist system, is an impossibility.

                Reply ↓
          2. ClinicalSnark*

            Learned something new today – some vegans don’t wear wool (had to Google if silk is vegan, it is not). I ‘knew’ about some vegan’s not using honey, but honestly if queried on the street, I’d probably forget that one. And as other commenters said, some vegans wear leather look alike items or will wear recycled leather products. Some vegans are against keep pets, so if Marie were to go down a google rabbit hole on veganism, there is a lot of conflicting information that varies from person to person.

            Reply ↓
        2. Miss Chanandler Bong*

          Yeah, came here to say this. Vegans are all different. Vegan friend of mine would have been fine with the first two gifts; she just doesn’t eat meat, milk, or eggs. Lots of vegans are fine with local honey but not leather.

          Though I’d probably stay away from food in general with anyone who has any kind of dietary issues and/or preferences.

          Reply ↓
          1. MassMatt*

            There are millions of possible gifts that don’t violate a vegan’s sense of ethics and this gift giver has managed to flunk clearing this very low hurdle three times now–four, if you count the fact that the latest round included her coworker getting an “oopsie” meat and cheese gift and then the “real” gift of popcorn with… cheese sprinkles. Thank you very little?

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        3. Bear Expert*

          When I’m gifting/cooking for specific vegans I know, I’ll ask about the borderline cases – honey and wool/alpaca where you can confirm the animals are being cared for sustainably and well, thrifted leather, etc. (One of my favorite vegans will accept knitted wool objects from animals where you know the animal’s name. “This shawl is from a fleece from an alpaca named Romeo, I got to pet him and here’s a picture.” meets their standards where commercially farmed wool does not. Absolutely the best excuse I’ve had to go to wool fairs. I need to meet the sheep!)

          If I am gifting to “a vegan” and I’m not friendly enough with them to have the discussion about what exactly their choices and boundaries are, I do not play around, zero animals will be involved to the best of my ability. Organic cotton with plant based dyes or none at all. Vegan bakery with labels. Paper products like stationary. Blown glass, but I’d double check if any of the colorants are conceivably animal related. Possibly a fancy spice collection. I don’t know if they’re coming from a primarily environmental bent, so I don’t know if plastics are okay and I’ll avoid those too. Gift cards or cash exist if you’re not certain.

          If you care about the recipient or at least doing a good job on a gift, you put the research in to do it well. I’d give a pass on the honey but the leather would be avoided with a 20 second google search and the cheese sprinkle is just being careless when you know you don’t have room to be careless. After the first time you get caught out hurting someone’s feelings, you put the work in!

          Reply ↓
            1. Clisby*

              I hadn’t heard of it in that context, but when I first started dating my husband, I found out he didn’t really like getting meat from a supermarket/butcher shop. He said, “When I eat an animal, I want to know its name.” I thought that was very odd, until I realized that what he really meant was he wanted meat raised like his father did on his Ohio farm. Yes, they raised beef cattle, but they were grass-fed, and pretty much had one bad day. Occasionally they raised hogs, and butchered them, and of course they killed chickens and rabbits, but they raised them and knew they weren’t crammed into some hellhole place before dying.

              Reply ↓
              1. Freya*

                The best beef I’ve ever had was raised on a friend’s hobby farm. Those cattle were treated very well, liked being scritched, and had names like ‘Brisket’, and when it came time to finalise them, my friend got professionals in so it was done right and mobile butchers with hired cool rooms to hang the meat properly. Expensive compared to supermarket meat, but well worth it.

                Reply ↓
          2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

            When my sister was eating a vegetarian diet, her rule was that she wouldn’t eat meat unless she’d killed the animal herself; she figured that if she wasn’t up to that part, then she shouldn’t benefit from the meat. (We had a hobbyist homestead-ish situation growing up, which meant that we were not insulated from the fundamental source of meat as kids, and we participated in the process even if our dad was the one doing the deed. Our freezer had both commercial meat, and home-wrapped packages with the name of the vicious rooster on it.)

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        4. Rose*

          That should say: “if you don’t know the person’s preferences AND you’re not sure if an item is vegan or not.”

          Reply ↓
        5. Ento*

          Im not a vegan, but I am an entomologist. Bee keeping definitely doesn’t have a huge carbon footprint like beef, but keeping honey bees does spread diseases to the thousands of species of native bees in the US. Honey bees can also out compete native bees for resources. Im not saying not to eat it, just taking an opportunity to jump on the soap box.

          Reply ↓
          1. Rose*

            Fair enough! My friend and I don’t live in the US and I believe honeybees are native where we are, but they might feel differently about eating honey if honeybees were invasive here.

            Reply ↓
          2. BellaStella*

            In Switzerland there is a whole issue on honey bees outcompeting native bees, am sure this is the case in most countries but maybe you can confirm? Here are some links to look for:
            Beekeeping in cities may harm wild bees and honeybees
            14.02.2022 | Fiona Galliker | News WSL

            City beehives destroying wild bee populations in Switzerland
            19/02/2022 BY LE NEWS

            Urban beekeeping is endangering biodiversity (March 2022) Swiss Food

            FEBRUARY 14, 2022
            Excessive beekeeping in Swiss cities could be detrimental for wild bees and honeybees
            by Swiss Federal Institute for Forest, Snow and Landscape Research WSL

            27 April 2023
            Wild bees under tension
            Jeannine Suremann

            So important the bee issue. As we face biodiversity loss globally, these fixes are not really working for saving the bees.

            Reply ↓
        6. Yorick*

          My closest vegan friend eats honey, but I still started out making things with maple syrup instead when she was coming over

          Reply ↓
          1. Rose*

            Same – I stayed away from honey until I had a good opening to ask about it. (“I want to make you this recipe, but it has honey in it. Is that okay or should I substitute it with something else?”)

            Reply ↓
            1. Texan In Exile*

              This. I usually use (cheaper than butter) lard to grease the pan for making brownies, but for vegetarian friends, I use butter.

              Reply ↓
      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Asking the recipient is key. A former workplace of mine did Secret Santas and ahead of time we compiled a list of likes/dislikes so the gift givers would know what to avoid. It’s SO EASY as a vegan to simply say, “No animal products whatsoever, which means no meat, dairy, fish, eggs, honey, no leather, wool, down, angora,” etc. And as others pointed out below, every vegan is different and some of them are only vegan WRT their diet whereas others are full-on don’t use any animal products whatsoever. I have a dear vegan friend (the first vegan I ever knew, lol) who used to be fine with honey and then learned more about honey production and decided to stop eating it anymore.

        I have mad respect for hard-core vegans – it’s such a difficult way to live. But they are also very, very used to explaining it to people, so it’s really on Marie and the rest of the office that they didn’t think to ask Liz at some point what her own veganism entails. And after THREE years? I’m surprised Liz hasn’t mentioned it at all, which again leads me to believe that Marie is more at fault here because it seems likely that Liz has mentioned it a lot and Marie hasn’t paid attention.

        Reply ↓
        1. stratospherica*

          I also respect hard-core vegans (and really people with any dietary restriction) too! I recently went to New Zealand and wanted to get a treat for a vegan friend, and even for a country that has a comparatively high instance of vegan products, it was really difficult to find something for her. Experiencing that once was a struggle – I imagine doing it every day, particularly where I live where there are very few vegans, must become exhausting.

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    2. Nekussa*

      I wonder if she was confused by products that claim to be “vegan leather”, which is just a rebranding of pleather (which is plastic).

      Reply ↓
        2. I Have RBF*

          That I would be interested in. To me, pleather (plastic) is less sustainable that cowhide. Also, with the beef that gets produced in this country, using the hide as well means using even more of the animal, rather than making more plastic out of oil.

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          1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            Yeah, I’m not vegan, but prefer to consider sustainability and processing in my purchasing, which means I lean toward natural products and long-lasting ones. So it’s a pet peeve of mine when I see, say, boots advertised as “leather” than say in small print that they’re actually “vegan leather”. I don’t want plastic – no slight to those who do, but creating the confusion helps nobody!

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          2. Rose*

            Yeah, it’s not always as simple as “animal products are worse for the environment.” I mentioned this above, but I have a formerly-vegan friend who wore leather even when they were vegan (thrifted or recycled whenever possible, but still). Their rationale was that real leather usually lasts way longer than fake leather, so it doesn’t need to be thrown out and replaced nearly as often. The leather industry may not be great for the environment, but neither is filling up our landfills with plastic.

            My friend was vegan primarily for environmental reasons, though, so a vegan whose main concern is animal welfare would probably come down differently on this issue – which is also fine!

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        4. stratospherica*

          I’ve looked into plant-based vegan leather before, but it seems like a lot of it still has some kind of polyurethane as a coating or key ingredient, unfortunately. That’s why I still go for real leather with vegetable tanning methods.

          Reply ↓
    3. Frenchman Ben*

      Exactly; I feel like after two mistakes, you don’t just rely on one coworker, you do some research to see what gifts are and aren’t appropriate for vegans. There are multiple websites and forums where she could ask other vegans for ideas, too.

      Reply ↓
      1. Momma Bear*

        I agree. I have friends who keep kosher and I’ve learned that not all kosher is the same. I asked them specifically for the symbols to look for that work FOR THEM and then only get those things so that when their kids visit my home, there’s always something appropriate for them to eat. Marie needed to talk to Lisa (with sincere apology) after the first mistake and then make a sincere effort based on *Lisa’s* information not to do that again. At this point a gift card to somewhere generic would be less problematic. Even if it’s not a deliberate slight, at this point it’s thoughtless.

        Reply ↓
    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think it falls under “you don’t know what you don’t know” so it wouldn’t have even occurred to her to look it up. A lot of people think vegan just means no meat and no dairy and don’t realize it goes further than that (a lot of people don’t even realize it includes eggs or think “no dairy” means “no obvious milk products” without thinking about things like whey). That’s not to say she shouldn’t have gone out of her way to get it right after the first mistake, but a lot of people genuinely are clueless on this. That said, not checking after the second mistake? It’s hard to excuse that.

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      1. Artemesia*

        Honey. I give her that. Most people are not aware. But you screw up twice and then give her a box of meat and cheese. That is hard to excuse as an accident. I am not sure I even believe it. Is Marie a passive aggressive drama queen in other ways around the office?

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        1. Anonys*

          The meat thing was a genuine accident/mix up that was easily remedied, she only gave her a gift containing cheese toppings

          Reply ↓
          1. duinath*

            We don’t actually know that, though. We know that Marie wrapped the gifts, we know Marie labeled the gifts, and we know she *says* she labeled them wrong by accident.

            Just like she says buying a vegan coworker non vegan gifts three years in a row was an accident.

            I’m not saying it wasn’t. Maybe it was. But I’m not surprised the “it was a mistake” is wearing thin at this point.

            LBR, pulling this and then saying “oh no I didn’t mean to” is classic mean girl. Doesn’t mean Marie is a mean girl, but after three years of this I wouldn’t be taking her at her word anymore.

            Reply ↓
            1. ShanShan*

              This is the vibe I’m getting as well. A lot of people hate vegans and are looking for opportunities to quietly annoy them without getting in trouble. Four mistakes in three years is a lot to happen by accident in the context of a group that is so often harassed.

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              1. knitted feet*

                Yeah, I suspect this is where Liz’s head is at. There really are people – way too many people – who will deliberately mess with you if you have specific restrictions, whether that’s vegetarian/vegan/food allergies or whatever else. Some will wield plausible deniability, some are blatant about it. I think LW is probably right that Marie genuinely is clueless rather than malicious, but after a certain point, I can understand how the suspicion would creep in.

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              2. Xanna*

                And then like this letter, be hyper viligilent and ready to judge any reaction said vegan to the needling, and run with it as confirmation bias that vegans are “so demanding and crazy omg I was just trying to be NIcE how could I have known cheese powder isn’t a good gift for a vegan :(“

                Reply ↓
              1. duinath*

                Yeah, that’s the thing with this whole letter, isn’t it. It’s the pattern that is the problem.

                If the non-vegan gifts happened once, or the wrong label happened without all the other stuff, no one would think anything of it.

                But she just …keeps doing this. Over and over again.

                I wouldn’t be surprised if, in the context of all the other mistakes, Liz saw the sausage as a serious escalation. “Oh it was a mistake, I actually got you cheese” isn’t exactly a great defense, either.

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                1. A Cita*

                  And the cheese, if truly an accident, is just straight up lazy. There may not be bad intention, but there doesn’t seem to be good intention either.

          2. Artemesia*

            I don’t believe that someone who has twice offended a colleague wtih non vegan gifts ‘accidentally’ wrapped up the meat box. And of course the popcorn involved a cheese topping. At worst it is malicious; at best it is ‘oh this is just so complicated, these vegans are so hard to accommodate.’

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      2. Observer*

        A lot of people think vegan just means no meat and no dairy and don’t realize it goes further than that

        Yeah. And for the third gift – after she had messed up *twice*, she got *DAIRY* for the vegan coworker. Keep in mind that the set included *cheese* seasoning, so we’re not talking about hidden dairy, like whey.

        That said, not checking after the second mistake? It’s hard to excuse that.

        That’s just the cherry on the cake, imo.

        Reply ↓
      3. duinath*

        I find it very surprising that she didn’t check after the first mistake. I also think the leather thing is fairly well known, but even if it isn’t she should have done a google. Doing this three times in a row, the exact same mistake, I gotta say “thoughtless” is the best case scenario.

        LW, I would encourage you strongly to stay out of this. If you encourage them to mend fences, the risk is making Liz feel like Marie is not just bullying her, but turning the rest of the office against her.

        They do not have to be friends. Not being friends is a natural consequence of Marie’s actions.

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      4. A Book about Metals*

        Yes, but taking LW at their word that they do think it’s unintentional, don’t you think talking to the manager and accusing Marie of bullying is a pretty severe escalation?

        Reply ↓
        1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          I don’t think the commenting rules mean we have to take the LW’s opinion as an incontrovertible fact, only that we should believe that the LW believes that. Liz is not bound by other people’s interpretation of Marie’s motives (and honestly, not saying this about this situation or the LW, but it is very common when someone stands up for themselves for others to dismiss it). I don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone to think that Marie is being willfully obtuse.

          Reply ↓
          1. A Book about Metals*

            I guess I just don’t see this as bullying. To me that term means something much more serious and impactful than this

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        2. HB*

          No, because Liz *feeling* bullied is an effect that isn’t dependent on Marie *intending* to bully her.

          Liz could *completely* believe Marie when she says “I didn’t know” and still feel bullied. To put it in a legal context… intent can transfer. So if you throw a baseball and it goes through a window, you can’t argue that you didn’t intend to break the window because you *did* intend to throw the baseball in the same vicinity as a bunch of windows. Now, maybe the first time it happened you didn’t realize you were near any windows. And the second time it happened, you thought you had better aim, but the third time it happens? Stop throwing the baseball unless you *know you’re not going to hit a window*.

          And to push this further… pretend that the third time you hit the window, you had actually made significant efforts to *not* hit it. You went into an open field where there were no windows in sight… but you threw the ball and a pelican appeared out of nowhere, swallowing the ball and then traveling to a nearby town to drop it on someone’s windshield. In that case… you can probably still chalk it up to an accident. But “I asked someone for a vegan snack and they said popcorn so I bought some popcorn *without actually investigating anything about the popcorn*” isn’t an accident. You intentionally bought popcorn and patted yourself on the back thinking you’d finally thrown the ball in the opposite direction without checking to see if there windows in the opposite direction too. Eventually ignorance becomes intentional and *that’s* why it’s bullying. It’s just *fixable* bullying because it’s not coming from a place of ill will (at the moment).

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          1. MaxPower*

            The phrase that’s been used a lot in recent years is intent vs. impact.
            Marie’s intent might have been good, but the impact on Liz was that she got gifts that she specifically couldn’t use over and over again.
            It’s not like Marie got her a vegan cheesy popcorn but Liz would have preferred vegan carmel corn (and Marie would have no way to know this). This isn’t Liz being picky, this is Marie repeatedly buying a gift that’s wholly inappropriate for Liz, and that makes Liz feel like it’s targeted.

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            1. A Book about Metals*

              I get intent vs impact – i just don’t see a once a year thoughtless gift, absent any other incidents, as bullying. Maybe it’s just semantics but I always think of bullying as something far more severe than this

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              1. NotVegan*

                I think it gets into the fact that for many people, being vegan is a seriously held ethical and spiritual belief. So it’s not “oh it’s a bad gift, and yeah, she should’ve thought about it more, but it’s not a big deal” it’s more “She is repeatedly violating my ethical boundaries and making no effort to fix it.” Someone else in a different thread likened it to gifting ham to someone who keeps kosher. Over and over again. Being vegan doesn’t quite have the same religious freedom protections, but I think it’s understandable that after several years of “oops, forgot” it would feel a bit like religious persecution.

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              2. ShanShan*

                The whole point of intent vs. impact is that outsiders don’t get to decide how severe the impact of something is on the person who is affected.

                In other words: I accept that this doesn’t raise to the level of bullying for you, but it does for Liz, and in the calculus of intent vs. impact, that matters more.

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            2. MigraineMonth*

              I think that the context of how the gift is given/received is probably also feeding into this. At least in the US, gift giving is a public ritual where the recipient is being judged on reacting “correctly” to the gift; Liz has had to be gracious, forgiving and smooth things over in her work relationship with Marie, regardless of her real feelings about receiving things that she not only couldn’t use but which may have offended or disgusted her.

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        3. Kay*

          I mean – if I was lactose intolerant and my co-worker gave me 4 “oopsies” I might be feeling “WTF!?!?” enough to throw out a bullying comment!

          At a certain point it becomes absurd in its carelessness and just because its “unintentional” doesn’t mean it is acceptable.

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        4. Observer*

          but taking LW at their word that they do think it’s unintentional, don’t you think talking to the manager and accusing Marie of bullying is a pretty severe escalation?

          Why? Why is the assessment of the LW, who is not the one who is a target, outweigh the assessment of the actual target?

          Reply ↓
            1. lanfy*

              Are you assuming that OP is right that it’s unintentional?

              Or do you think that even if it were intentional, it still wouldn’t be bullying?

              Reply ↓
      5. Wendy Darling*

        Honestly the best case scenario here, after three screwups in a row, is that Marie not only doesn’t know but also doesn’t really care to find out.

        After the second mistake I’d be so mortified that I’d either be sitting around googling “is THING vegan” for every component of my gift or switch to making a small charitable donation in each coworker’s name in lieu of gifts.

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      6. Despachito*

        At this point, it seems that a non-work activity interferes with the atmosphere at work a lot more than it should. I can imagine Marie is willing to do SOME investigation but I wouldn’t dream of her requiring it to be so thorough.

        I don’t understand why so many people are so hard on Marie. It is WORK, not family, and it is much more likely people would get something they can’t use. Liz should be gracious, appreciate the effort and quietly regift a gift she cannot use, and that should be the end of it. Any drama is unwanted and inappropriate for work. Marie didn’t prank Liz , was not mean, and I would not consider it even thoughtless. She should be left alone.

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        1. Kay*

          The mental gymnastics needed to say Marie wasn’t thoughtless is just too much. This line of thinking is similar to ordering a plain lettuce salad for the office lunch and patting yourself on the back for accommodating the vegan – oh, and the plain lettuce salad is covered in bleu cheese dressing, which can just be wiped off of course. /s

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          1. Pescadero*

            Marie was thoughtless.

            Thing is – Marie shouldn’t ever have to care about being thoughtless about gifts for her co-workers, because she doesn’t owe them that thought.

            Reply ↓
            1. biobotb*

              Well then she shouldn’t be participating in gift exchanges if she doesn’t want to think about her coworkers’ gift preferences. Agreeing to participate in the exchange is signing on to care about your coworkers at least a little bit.

              Reply ↓
                1. lanfy*

                  But having to put some actual thought into the gifts is part of that calculus.

                  How much political capital is she risking by messing up a fourth time; especially immediately after the third was so egregious?

          2. moql*

            We had someone do this at our office. She proposed a potluck, but then started complaining that it would be too hard to include the vegan. We assigned her a salad with oil and vinegar and told her she should be good as long as she put any toppings on the side for people to add their own. She brought iceberg lettuce and ranch, then complained some more that vegans were tOo ComPliCaTed. It felt performative and pointed and I’m betting Marie is giving off these vibes.

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          3. A Cita*

            That’s actually happened to me, for an off-site whole day work retreat. Not vegan, but vegetarian. Whole day catered retreat and admin got me 1 plain lettuce salad and didn’t understand why I was upset.

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          4. Nodramalama*

            But there’s a world of difference between Marie is a thoughtless and bad gift giver, and Marie is acting maliciously to the extent that she purposefully mislabelled the gifts, as some have said might have happened.

            Reply ↓
            1. lanfy*

              Intent is invisible.

              All that’s visible here is that Marie has now given a vegan non-vegan items four times, the fourth as a replacement for a particularly egregiously non-vegan item.

              Those optics aren’t great.

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        2. knitted feet*

          It doesn’t have to be thorough if Marie just looks up ‘”vegan gifts”. It sounds like what she/you are envisaging is to think of a gift first and then spend hours trawling for a vegan version of it, obsessing over ingredients etc. etc. When really, at this point, she just needs to either forget food completely and get the poor woman a book or something, or she needs to find something marketed as vegan. Which, again, takes five minutes on Google.

          Yeah, a work gift is unlikely to be as perfect as the gift lovingly chosen by someone who’s known you all your life. But repeatedly choosing things that you KNOW the person avoids for reasons of personal ethics? Come on. That’s thoughtless and then some.

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        3. Valancy Stirling*

          You say Liz should appreciate the effort. What effort? Marie doesn’t seem to have put in any effort at all.

          Reply ↓
        4. AM*

          Agreed. People are do all sorts of mental gymnastics, assuming intentions and deviousness in Marie that is in no way reflected in OP’s letter. They seem to forget that an entire YEAR passed between each little flub.

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      7. Escape from Corporate Management*

        By gift #3, Marie should be buying Liz a book (not leather bound!). Or a gift card. Or any of the millions of items that don’t involve food or animal products.

        Either Marie is frightening clueless or Liz is right in that she’s trying to make a point. OP, which is it?

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    5. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Marie is really not trying to be thoughtful. It may or may not be bullying but at this time is thoughtlessness. I mean I would not ask a coworker what a good vegan snack was — unless that person were also vegan. You go to the Vegans, they aren’t hard to find. Or you use google. But hey I’ll get popcorn WITH seasonings is not really thinking it through.

      Reply ↓
      1. Harper the Other One*

        Yeah, this was my thought too. When the theme is snacks and PARTICULARLY when you’ve made mistakes about gif rain the past, it would be so obvious to get an explicitly labeled vegan snack. She may in fact just be thoughtless but it is an extreme level of thoughtlessness at this point IMO, and deserving of a bit of social awkwardness as a result.

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    6. Falling Diphthong*

      For the first two, I can really see that you don’t know what you don’t know. Like, in year two she learned from year one and avoided food and went with clothing and something the pet could use, and didn’t realize there were also pitfalls here.

      However, after messing up two years in a row, you really have to be reading ingredients and googling to double check all your assumptions.

      I read a lot of labels to account for family member allergies, and “we added all things buttery and cheesy” is in fact a pitfall with popcorn. Roast nuts would have worked great here–it’s a snack, it’s vegan, it’s pretty shelf-stable.

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      1. Nack*

        Roasted nuts, yes, but those “candied” nuts are sometimes made with egg white! I could see how Marie could mess this one up too! But I guess this sums up your post – you don’t know what you don’t know, and you better read the label CAREFULLY.

        Reply ↓
        1. Dawn*

          Something that can be very handy is that just like kosher and halal products, there are vegan-certifying organizations out there.

          It does make the product more expensive (vegan tax!) but when you see that big V on the package, you know it’s safe, and it’s pretty easy to look for. And all you really have to do there is search online for “how do I know a product is vegan?”

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      2. Wendy Darling*

        If this wasn’t the latest in a series of unforced errors I’d be inclined to assume Marie had the same thought I sometimes do, which is that “cheese flavoring” has strayed so far from the realm of food that it barely warrants consideration because it’s probably made of something like nutritional yeast and garlic powder.

        It turns out I’m WRONG and usually it is in fact made of cheese and surprisingly enough cheetos aren’t even vegetarian if you’re being strict about your vegetarianism. But it’s not a totally bonkers mistake to make… if you have not been continually making that same mistake for the last several years.

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        1. Dawn*

          Nutritional yeast is wildly more expensive than milk solids lol, at least in North America where ridiculous dairy subsidies keep milk production extremely excessive.

          You can thank the dairy lobbies in Canada and America for that one. Dairy production in both nations enjoys some truly wild government benefits.

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          1. Wendy Darling*

            Yeah, when I found out it was made of real cheese I was like, huh, real cheese must be cheaper! Like, I know Cheetos aren’t made of real cheese because they’re super concerned with the authenticity of the cheese flavor…

            Not surprised that there are government benefits at ALL.

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        2. ClinicalSnark*

          My thought was the shaker looked like ‘butter flavouring’ which often is made with oils and not diary. Those huge vats of ‘butter’ at the movie theatre is almost always an oil based product (and with a google search several major suppliers are vegan).

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      3. I Have RBF*

        See, a theme of “snacks” would make it easy. While lots of people dunk on Amazon, it does have the advantage of being able to find stuff that may not be in local shops. Doing a search on “vegan snacks” yields lots of results, and then you could always look for those items in your local stores.

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    7. What_the_What*

      Wait. What? Seriously? I’d have thought alcohol was vegan! Learned something new today. I’m fascinated; what aspect of it violates veganism? Does it have to do with fertilzation of the grapes? That’s the only thing I can think of… Then again other than “grapes/fermentation” I know nothing of how wine (or any other alcohol) is made. *Shrug*

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      1. Snubble*

        A lot of wines have a clarification step that uses animal products to precipitate out the cloudiness – fish based, I think, a lot of the time.

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        1. amoeba*

          I thought it’s gelatin?

          (However, there’s tons of vegan wines available – just make sure to check when you go shopping! A good wine shop should certainly be able to tell you. And often it’s also stated on the bottle!)

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            1. Silver Robin*

              most gelatin is actually pork, by my understanding (still an animal product, but now also not kosher, which is why I know because I have to check for it!)

              Reply ↓
                1. Silver Robin*

                  I usually look for pectin (plant based) or fish gelatin (because it can go with anything as far as kashrut is concerned) but if the package just says “gelatin” then I avoid it. Though good to know about the UK! Will keep it in mind should I visit again.

            2. Botanist*

              and not hooves, it’s made from connective tissue. Keratin (hooves and fingernails) doesn’t have the elastic properties necessary.

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            3. amoeba*

              Huh? Yes, I know gelatin isn’t vegan, didn’t write anything to contradict that? I just wasn’t aware fish were involved; I thought the problem was gelatin.

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          2. Gliff*

            It can be – including isinglass which is gelatin from fish bladders. Lots of other fining materials used in wind production are also animal based – bone marrow, chitin, casein and others.

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            1. Audrey Puffins*

              Some commercial orange juice is produced with isinglass too, it is MINDBLOWING how many products you’ll discover aren’t vegan once you start digging!

              Reply ↓
              1. MigraineMonth*

                Yeah, I was thinking of trying Veganuary last year and was trying to figure out which of the foods in my pantry were vegan. (I’m pescatarian, but I had already switched to soy milk and figured it wouldn’t be that big a change.)

                I made the mistake of using one of the Serious Vegan sites and discovered that practically everything I was eating might have been processed with animal products, from the sugar down to the whole oranges in my fruit bowl. Ugh.

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                2. MigraineMonth*

                  @BellaStella – Many citrus fruits have wax–which may or may not contain beeswax–applied to the outside of the peel.

          3. Ina Lummick*

            fish are definetly used, so can milk and egg.

            (not sure on US alcohol labelling laws but EU/UK regs require allergens to be declared on alcoholic products, which covers milk/eggs/fish)

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        2. T.N.H*

          Yes, this is it! Egg whites also in addition to the others listed below. That being said, you can absolutely find vegan wine, but you need to know what to look for (I would not trust a wine shop, but I’m a sommelier and in my experience they have no idea what they’re talking about).

          I’m sure Alison doesn’t want to derail on this, but it just goes to show that you really have to research what is and is not vegan.

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        3. As7k*

          Isinglass is made from the ground swim bladders of fish and is used in the final filtration (fining) of many wines.

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        4. What_the_What*

          *gag* @ the thought of fishyness in my wine! Thanks for the clarity though now I’ll never be able to forget it lol

          Reply ↓
      2. Rose*

        It really depends on the person. Some vegans just don’t eat meat or dairy, others are much stricter. Best to ask the recipient or err on the side of caution if you can’t.

        Reply ↓
      3. bamcheeks*

        It’s not inherent to wine making, but most industrial wine-making is clarified or preserved using non-vegan processes.

        Reply ↓
      4. Dave the Cat*

        A lot of beer and wine is filtered with animal products (egg whites, gelatin, or isinglass) and it’s not an ingredient per se so even if they chose to list ingredients on the label it wouldn’t be listed. But a lot of it is filtered with other things, or unfiltered, so you never really know without a lot of research (also some beer is Milk Stout or brewed with lactose, or even with meat, but those would be on the label as a selling point; also mead is honey based). Hard alcohol is vegan unless it’s a weird one like vodka made from milk. As a long-time vegan, I do drink wine of unknown status and I typically don’t investigate. Other vegans I know are the same.

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        1. Wayward Sun*

          There are also beer brands that specifically advertise that they’re vegan. It depends on the brewery and what process they use for that specific beer.

          Reply ↓
      5. Wendy Darling*

        The dietary restriction that does my head in is that most oatmeal is not vegan and it’s because oats are usually grown around wheat so unless the oats are sourced from a special gluten-free oat farm they’re cross-contaminated in the field before they’re even harvested!

        It was a bummer when I made special oat-based cookies for a gluten-free neighbor only to find out he couldn’t eat them. (Alas, I had to eat them myself. They were delicious.) And then I also learned that anything cooked in my gluten-friendly kitchen with my hopelessly contaminated equipment wouldn’t be suitable for people who can’t deal with cross-contamination, so now if I want to make someone a food gift I just ask first.

        Reply ↓
        2. LL*

          Gluten-free and vegan are different things with different restrictions. Oats and wheat are both vegan, but if there’s something added to the oatmeal before it hits store shelves (like flavoring or whatever) the final product might not be vegan.

          Reply ↓
        3. AM*

          Gluten-free and vegan are not the same thing… Google, as mentioned by countless commenters in this thread, is your friend.

          Reply ↓
    8. Wilbur*

      I don’t think all vegans are universally against honey. I’ve met one or two who only source from local beekeepers that have a strong focus on colony welfare.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ann Onymous*

        While it’s true that not all vegans avoid honey, enough do that honey is probably not a good choice of gift for a vegan unless you already know for sure they consume honey.

        Reply ↓
      2. Dawn*

        Speaking as a vegan who does consume honey, it’s a huge, messy debate within the community. I’m an ecological vegan and my position is that more bees (even invasive European Honey Bees) are good for the planet, and therefore, fine to support. In general though, we can assume that when people follow the “no animal products” diet, you should probably avoid all animal products unless explicitly informed otherwise.

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        1. Annika Hansen*

          I am part of our my community’s vegan Facebook group. I am a non-strict vegetarian, but the vegan community is much more active than the vegetarian community. I just want to know if there are any good meals at local restaurants. There was a huge blow-up about whether vegans should eat honey. It was ugly. The two other topics that are now forbidden are horseback riding and eggs from backyard chickens. I had never even thought about horseback riding being considered non-vegan.

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          1. Dawn*

            I would probably continue to avoid backyard eggs for myself (mostly because I’m already used to substituting eggs in everything) but I think that as long as you’re not supplementing your chickens’ diet with feed unless absolutely necessary they’re ethical, the same way fur combed from your cat would be.

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        2. FricketyFrack*

          I’ve never really landed solidly on either side of the honey debate. My attitude is mostly, “I won’t seek it out, but if I need to eat and my only viable option has honey, I’ll eat it.” It’s an interesting debate but I do think people get waaaay too aggressive about it. There’s definitely a subset of vegans who think they’re the moral authority and anyone not living up to their standards might as well be running a slaughterhouse. I’m just happy when anyone shows interest in reducing their animal consumption.

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        3. Sarah With an H*

          I love honey (I’m vegetarian, not vegan), but buy local from small farms. What I find really interesting is that in debate about honey I hardly ever see discussion about the agriculture has on bees (I didn’t know about this for a long time and I assume most people don’t). Monocultures like large almond groves have to ship in bees to fertilize their trees; since all the plants in a grove flower at the same time pollinators can’t survive there year round. So there’s a whole industry of bees that are moved around the country (in the US anyway) from monocrop to monocrop. It’s super stressful on bees and a factor in declining populations.

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      3. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Vegans aren’t necessarily universally against leather, either! I know a few who will wear leather shoes because they last longer / can be repaired more easily than a lot of non-vegan alternatives, which in the long run is better for the environment (if that’s the reason they’re vegan).

        Reply ↓
        1. Dawn*

          I’m not planning to seek out new leather goods (because I think that buying new animal products encourages increased animal farming, which is what I’m trying to prevent) but I continue to wear my existing leather jacket/shoes because it would be more wasteful of me to discard them when I already own them.

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      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I’d definitely be avoiding any snacks. I know she tried that the second time, but…I wouldn’t go back to them again after that because they seem the easiest to mess up with.

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          1. Freya*

            This. There’s this vegan chocolate available around here that is also coconut free but still weirdly tastes like coconut is a main ingredient. My brain says ‘not food’ because things that are normally dairy-based should not taste like they’re based on something else, even if they have none of that other thing in (to be clear, I have the same problem with coconut-based icecream, because my brain expects icecream to taste like dairy is in it. Ice blocks and gelati are fine, because they’re not supposed to taste like dairy products, but dairy-free normally-dairy products are Not Food)

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        2. MaxPower*

          Food gifts specifically labeled as vegan are actually better gifts than avoiding food, potentially. That way you avoid any of the non-food things that are potentially problematic (and there are a bunch), like the dog collar.

          I’ve never met a vegan who would be offended by receiving something explicitly labeled vegan, even if their vegan interpretation was significantly more conservative than the norm.

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    11. ThatGirl*

      Honey is divisive among vegans; I know a few who are fine with it and others who are very much against it. But the real key here is to a) know your audience and b) be very thoughtful.

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    12. Successful Birthday Rememberer*

      Neither are figs! Also, most vegans stay away from palm oil because of the environmental concerns. Google is definitely Marie’s friend right now.
      I am a little worried for Marie and Liz right now…I hope Marie can smooth this over.

      Reply ↓
      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        That’s actually not true of most commercially available varieties of figs, if you’re talking about the wasp thing (and even then, there’s not actually any wasp left in the fig by the time you’re eating it, and it’s a natural pollination/life cycle phenonmenon, so some vegans are fine with eating even those varieties)

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    13. LCH*

      i went to a vegan restaurant in my early 20s (like 2002ish) and asked for honey. eek! i totally did not know it counted. i also didn’t know about gummy bears 10 years later because i had no idea of their ingredients. now i do!

      leather does seem more obvious and i would probably err on the side of caution with that.

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    14. Quinalla*

      Agree, the first one I can forgive, but yes just google after that? Or stop getting the vegan coworker any food or animal products to be safe? Or just talk to her and say “Hey I was thinking about this, but didn’t want to mess up again, is this ok?” I know some are very keen on surprises for gifts, but with so many times giving nasty surprises, it’s time to stop.

      I do agree that the vegan coworker is overreacting a bit here unless there is more to the coworker relationships we aware of.

      Agreed with other that this tradition is A LOT. I would be prepared to stop it when you get a new team member someday. I would not be cool with it myself.

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    15. Brain Sturgeon*

      I think your P.S. proves there’s a ton about veganism that a not vegan probably wouldn’t know and would never think to ask about or even Google.

      Reply ↓
  3. Nekussa*

    I think the suggestion of going to a vegan bakery is the right one. Don’t try to figure it out yourself, go to the experts who will do it right.

    Reply ↓
    1. KHB*

      There are so many companies that make/sell products that are specifically marked as vegan. Most people probably aren’t aware of them if they haven’t had reason to shop for vegans (themselves or others), but somebody needs to make Marie aware of them now.

      And oh, how I wish you all could go back in time and give Marie some better advice when she was asking “What’s a vegan snack?” Even just googling “vegan snacks” turns up so many results.

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      1. MaxPower*

        Almost every grocery store has a section of the store that sells “natural foods”. If you go to that section you’ll find dozens of products, including tons of snack foods, explicitly labeled vegan. I think you’d have to be a time traveller from 1985 not to be aware that you can buy vegan treats easily. If you’ve ever walked around any store that sells groceries you’d know that vegan foods are abundant.

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    8. Lizzay*

      Ha!

      Seriously, though, a friend of mine’s sister was vegetarian (not full vegan, I don’t think) and went to visit extended family in Korea & when she said she was vegetarian, her aunt/uncle/relative said “it’s ok, I’ll make chicken”.

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      1. Dust Bunny*

        Three years in a row over something that could be solved with a minor Google search? She’s allowed to be peeved. Marie is either as thick as a brick or doesn’t think she should have to care.

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        1. mango chiffon*

          She’s allowed to be peeved and upset, but I think going to say that it’s bullying is a bit too far. I grew up with certain food limitations because of the religion I grew up with and yes it is frustrating to get things that had the foods I couldn’t eat, but I also grew up in white midwest and people really were that thick about religious and cultural differences. Still happens even today when my brother’s mother in law made beef cocktail franks as part of a meal and we had to skip that.

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          2. Jamie Starr*

            I also grew up in white midwest and people really were that thick about religious and cultural differences…

            This tracks. I, too, grew up in the white (rural) midwest and have been a vegetarian for 25+ years. When visiting, I ask if something is vegetarian and they think it is, even if it’s made with chicken stock or is seafood/fish.

            There’s all sorts of tricky stuff that seems innocuous – Worcestershire sauce has anchovies; gummy bears or Jello made with gelatin, etc. And this is just vegetarian. Vegan is even trickier. To me, leather seems pretty obviously Not Vegan. Unless she thought Liz was only vegan with regards to foods. But then cheese the next year? Marie needs to learn how to Google.

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            1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

              After the first two, I stop giving Marie the benefit of the doubt. Plenty of food products SAY vegan on the packaging. She could find one.

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            2. Wayward Sun*

              And to make it even trickier, some vegetarians are less strict than others about things with trace amounts of animal products.

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            3. Lemons*

              Can confirm! On a roadtrip in the rural midwest, my co-travelers wanted to stop at a jerky outlet. I chilled by the door while they perused. The nice Midwesterners behind the counter noticed I wasn’t engaged and were like “can we get you any samples, tell you any info about our jerky?” I said no thanks, I’m a vegetarian, and it was like a cartoon record scratch happened. They were totally thrown for a loop, and one was like “…so, what do you eat?” (thinks for a while) “…potatoes?”

              They were probably high schoolers, it was pretty adorable tbh — I might have been the first vegetarian they ever met!

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          3. bamcheeks*

            what is a beef cocktail? I am trying to assume it’s not just a drink with beef in it whilst also politely allowing for the possibility that it is a drink with beef in it and keeping an open mind.

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            1. mango chiffon*

              cocktail franks! so they’re mini hot dogs made of beef in this case. She could have gotten turkey ones (and has in the past) but she didn’t this time.

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              1. bamcheeks*

                OH, OK, mini hotdogs sounds cute and much less alarming! (I had no idea sausages could be called franks though!)

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                1. Lexi Vipond*

                  Short for frankenfurter because they’re small? I kind of figured it out, but it is a very unfamiliar way of describing it!

              2. Galloping Possum*

                Wedding weenies is what we call them around here. They are a staple at most parties and celebrations here.

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            2. Smithy*

              “Cocktail franks” is a term associated with a small sausage – a beef cocktail frank would imply all (or mostly beef) vs also containing pork or other meats.

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            3. Happy meal with extra happy*

              Lol, that made me chuckle. The key group of words is “cocktail franks”. They’re the little mini hotdogs.

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            4. Lady Lessa*

              To play on words, some friends had a “Beet” martini at this ethnic restaurant. I didn’t because I am more of a beer drinker vs cocktails.

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          4. Eldritch Office Worker*

            As it says in the response, there might be more context to their relationship that makes it feel more deliberate. It sounds like Liz tried to be gracious the first couple of times.

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          5. Snarkastic*

            Yes, I think it’s fair to be annoyed, but I wouldn’t have made a thing about it. I mean, this is why co-workers shouldn’t get each other gifts, anyway. Let’s just all be friendly, not resent each other, and then go home.

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          6. sb51*

            Eh, I also grew up ethically/religiously-but-not-in-an-organized-way vegetarian in the white midwest, and there was a LOT of bullying, both subtle and not. And it was distinctly different from the cluelessness (which was also rampant). If Liz is getting a passive-aggressive intentional vibe off the interactions, she may well be right.

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          7. Parakeet*

            Yeah, bullying is a very serious accusation and people should not make it wantonly. It’s very reasonable to be peeved. Unless there’s something else going on, calling an unsuitable gift from one person once a year “bullying” is a stretch.

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        2. Lucy P*

          I think some people really just don’t get it, because it’s not their lifestyle and they don’t know anyone else with that lifestyle.

          We have a lacto-vegetarian in our office, who made that choice due to religion. One of the department assistants was in charge of planning the holiday parties. They were instructed to make sure there was suitable food for coworker. We explained that not only should it not have meat, but shouldn’t have eggs either. In greater detail, we made them confirm that the lasagna, lasagna noodles and ice cream would not be made with eggs.

          After that, we had a pot luck one year. Assistant happily explained to the lacto-vegetarian that their potato salad was safe to eat because they left the eggs out of it. It was just potatoes and mayonnaise. Assistant didn’t think about what the mayo was made from.

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          1. Martin Blackwood*

            My sister and my nephew both have/had egg allergies (he did that desensitivization thing). mayo is One Of Those Things and also Toppings Dont Count. i once bought a dessert for my sister that had a bit of merengue drizzled on top. also, more ice creams than you might expect!

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        3. boof*

          I got to say each one is a different type of mistake and I could easily entirely chalk up to just having Zero Prior Vegan Experience.

          Bonus points if next year it’s something red (with carmine)

          (things I probably mostly know because I lived a while with a hardcore vegan )

          I think ideally just… no more gifts, or if that’s not feasible, Marie gets to farm out Liz’s gift to someone who is vegan and reimburse them or something.

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      2. Joe*

        What did Liz do wrong? She was gracious about the honey (understandable) and even the leather (less understandable – getting a vegan something made of leather is pretty stupid). Then she received something with cheese. I’d be cold to Marie too.

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        1. mango chiffon*

          A lot of people are under the misconception that vegan is just about diet, so I disagree on the leather part. My family are vegetarians, but where we are from, vegetarians mostly don’t eat eggs but eat dairy. This becomes an issue in the US around food because it ends up being in the middle of what people commonly understand as vegetarian vs vegan, and also in my experience a lot of people are really just that bad about understanding details around food limitations unless you give specifics loudly and often. I think Liz is totally fine with being cold to Marie, but I think saying it’s bullying is a bit too far for me personally.

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          1. ShanShan*

            A lot of what makes someone a skilled bully is sticking to actions that sound fine on paper.

            It’s a good way to make the person you’re bullying look unreasonable. But they’re not unreasonable, because they’re reacting to the clear intent behind the actions, not the actions.

            The fact that Marie not only doesn’t seem sorry but is frequently and vocally complaining about Liz’s reaction (this making it seem more dramatic than it is) is a clear red flag to me, as someone with a lot of experience with this kind of person.

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          2. Pescadero*

            “A lot of people are under the misconception that vegan is just about diet,”

            For some Vegans (a couple of my close friends) – vegan IS just about diet. They wear leather.

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            1. Non non non all the way home*

              Are you sure it’s leather? There are vegan alternatives that can look a lot like leather or fur.

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              1. Lemons*

                It’s actually a really interesting question to consider! Is it better to buy vegan leather (AKA plastic) which is better for the animal, worse for the environment (considering its production/waste generation), or real leather, which is worse for the animal, better for the environment (more durable/reparable/biodegradable), with potential longer-term environmental benefits due to decreased consumption, which could benefit animals in the long run?

                The answer totally depends on what your idealogical stance is.

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        2. Love me, love my cat*

          Totally agree! I think vegans become vegans, in large part, to prevent the slaughter of animals. To give a vegan a gift made of leather seems willfully ignorant. Sure, some vegans wear leather, etc., but why would you chance giving such an inappropriate gift? Seems deliberately obtuse and mean-spirited.

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      3. Helewise*

        I agree. Marie should do better, but the commentary seems to be expecting WAY more time investment than a ridiculous work gift exchange warrants. And vegan products aren’t nearly as widely available outside major metros, so it’s not necessarily an easy thing to source.

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        1. Ellen N.*

          I had a client who used to send Harry & David pears. They are vegan and delicious. Harry & David ships everywhere.

          A bottle of good olive oil is vegan, widely appreciated and available in many localities.

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          1. Dinwar*

            Olive oil is one of the most widely counterfeited foodstuffs, though. It’s nearly impossible to know if the olive oil you’re buying is actually vegan unless you track down the actual source and supply chain. (Somewhat ironically, honey is also on the list of most counterfeited foods.) Too much work for an office gift exchange.

            That’s why I opt for tools. In my line of work it’s pretty universally appreciated (especially 9/16 sockets!), and no reasonable person is going to debate whether or not a hunk of iron is vegan.

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        2. Ellen N.*

          I had a client who used to send Harry & David pears. They are vegan and delicious. Harry & David ships everywhere.

          A bottle of good olive oil is vegan, widely appreciated and available in many localities.

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        3. Galloping Possum*

          Agree. Especially for comments like “Just find a vegan bakery.” We don’t know where they are. I don’t have any kind of bakery at all within an hours drive of me.

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          1. Stealth Droid*

            I just Google searched online vegan bakery and found plenty of options that ship. It’s really not that hard. I say this as someone who has been slighted in numerous office gift exchanges: either put in the effort for your recipient or withdraw from the gift exchange. It really sucks to feel like an afterthought, and certainly doesn’t build team comradery.

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        4. Wayward Sun*

          Agreed. If I were Marie I would opt out of the gift exchange in future years. It seems to be a drama factory.

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        5. D*

          The gifts don’t need to be food, though. She could buy a bookmark, pen set, coffee mug, bracelet, picture frame, throw pillow, set of coasters, pop socket, or just a gift card somewhere.

          Maybe it’s a lot to think about someone’s dietary restrictions if you’re not used to it, so then… avoid food. And leather. I thought that would be a given, tbh.

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          1. ClinicalSnark*

            The throw pillow could even be a land mine if it was made of other animal products (wool, silk, feathers). Or even a picture frame (idk where seashells might land). I think after 3 years of being coworkers with 5 other people, Marie should know something about Lisa to find a suitable gift, but this whole thread has opened by eyes to the gauntlet of vegan gift giving I would fail!

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        6. Saturday*

          They are widely available though. Buy some fruit, buy some nuts, skip the food and get something else… etc. There’s no need for it to be some big time investment.

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        7. Dahlia*

          I live in the middle of nowhere and we have both fruit and books.

          She doesn’t HAVE to give a food product.

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        8. Biff*

          I think there’s an ongoing assumption that vegan means one thing, and that thing is very clear cut, with a few minor differences of opinion. In my experience, that’s not true. There are some big arguments in the community and I’ve also met 90% vegans who still call themselves vegan. If I were Marie I’d probably choose badly out of a combination of being stressed to the max and completely full of dread.

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          1. allathian*

            Yeah, my sister is flexivegan. The only thing she never eats is red meat, fowl, and fish. She appreciates it if people bake vegan, but will eat stuff that contains egg and dairy. She also eats honey, her reasoning is that without pollinators everyone, including vegans, would run out of food because some 70 percent of the plant-based stuff we eat depends on them.

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      4. Ally McBeal*

        Hard agree here. At this point Marie needs to get her 2025 gift inspected and approved before she wraps it. Preferably by a vegan, or at least someone who has a lot of vegans in their life and would know what to look for. But Liz is looking for personal grievance when sheer incompetence is most likely Marie’s only issue.

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      5. Samwise*

        I agree. Marie tried but she’s asking the wrong person — she needs to ask Liz directly. That means Liz’s gift isn’t a surprise, but so what?

        Liz needs to get over herself. Unless Marie is bullying or otherwise unpleasant to Liz the rest of the time, it’s just a mistake.

        Three years in a row — yeah, but it’s only once a year. And yes, I have gotten cloddish gifts multiple years from a single person. Fortunately the gifts were mailed to me, so I didn’t have to worry about my face giving away my dismay. Then I wrote a thank you note and donated the gift to a thrift shop (once I just threw it away). Because either they meant well, in which case, why make a big deal about it? Or they didn’t mean well, in which case why give them the satisfaction of knowing I was annoyed or offended?

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      6. Sarah With an H*

        This is mostly where I am, though I think so much depends on context we don’t have. I would definitely give the benefit of the doubt for the first two–honey isn’t meat and isn’t dairy so its entirely reasonable that it’d never occur to Marie that there would even be an issue. The dog collar is more obvious but also isn’t food, and if someone doesn’t ever think to check what something is made out of, I can see it being an honest mistake; I don’t really expect someone to put as much thought into a gift for a coworker as they would for a good friend.
        I am side-eyeing the popcorn toppings a bit, and likely she just didn’t actually put that much effort into it — or it could truly be super passive-aggressive, who knows, but I think that depends on how she acts around Liz the rest of the year.

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    3. Frenchman Ben*

      I’m interested in your reasoning; I don’t see Liz as the ass, but there might be an element that’s escaping me.

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      1. Guacamole Bob*

        I think Alison is right that we need more info about their relationship otherwise. If they genuinely have a good relationship the rest of the year then jumping to “bullying” over the gifts is a lot. But I’d guess that Liz generally gets the vibe that Marie thinks vegans are weird or some such – probably in a way that doesn’t feel reportable but that means the gift issues are just adding to annoyance that’s already there.

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        1. KHB*

          But if they did have a genuinely good relationship the rest of the year, I don’t think Liz WOULD jump to “bullying” over the gifts, because I don’t think she’d be feeling bullied. So I strongly suspect that this isn’t just about the gifts – it’s about their whole relationship. Marie has had 3+ years to learn this central thing about her coworker in a “pretty close” office, and she’s chosen not to do that. That’s on her.

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          1. Biff*

            I don’t know about you, but if my job included learning about my coworker’s dietary restrictions, and I wasn’t an admin in charge of lunch, or working in a test kitchen, I’d be really concerned about the lack of work/life boundaries.

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            1. Jennifer Strange*

              So then don’t give your co-workers gifts? Marie doesn’t have to, it’s not part of her job. If she chooses to take that on, then she is choosing to do proper research into what gifts aren’t going to go against another co-workers ethical beliefs.

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            2. biobotb*

              If you don’t want to learn anything about your coworkers’ preferences, don’t opt into gift exchanges with them. There would be no way to escape that, unless you want to give people entirely random gifts, at which point why are you even giving them something if you care so little about them?

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        2. Smithy*

          Yeah, this strikes me as a case of almost wanting to work backwards from what resolution Liz would like to see.

          Maybe this is a case where Liz is getting frustrated with the larger practice of having to buy gifts for 6 coworkers – particularly if it feels like what they’re receiving is not equitable with the time/money they’re spending? Maybe there’s a completely different issue at play between Liz and Marie? But ultimately, I think where Liz could be more helpful with this claim is to better identify what resolution they want to see.

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          1. Butterfly Counter*

            Oh goodness, I feel this. Mostly with my brother.

            Every year for Christmas, I do try to get him something nice that explores his interests that I really do think he’ll like, enjoy, and/or appreciate. Every year… he does not.

            One year, his Christmas gift to me was a Blu Ray of the Minions movie. I had never once talked to him about the Minions, I was in my 30s (maybe not the target demo for the movie), and did not own a Blu Ray player. It kind of hurt my feelings how little thought he had put into my gift.

            Now I don’t think Liz has any cause to be cold to anyone over gifts in a professional environment, but I also think this is signalling that this gift-giving tradition needs to die.

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    4. Jennifer Strange*

      If the third gift had been completely vegan-friendly and Liz was cold about an honest mix-up I might agree (though even then I could see how two years of non-vegan gifts could be annoying).

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      1. Observer*

        If the third gift had been completely vegan-friendly

        Yes, that’s the key here. As Alison said the mixup is a bit of a red herring. It’s the fact that she got a supposedly “vegan” gift with *cheese* seasoning. Even people who don’t know alot about veganism generally know that vegans don’t eat dairy. Now, they might no realize that it means things like whey, but cheese? No.

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    5. Parenthesis Guy*

      Agree.

      Marie made very reasonable mistakes. I think a lot of people don’t know that some vegans don’t use leather. She asked a co-worker for help the third time and did what the coworker told her. The idea that this is some sort of bullying tactic seems far fetched.

      Now if there’s a history between the two of them, then that’s different.

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      1. Observer*

        She asked a co-worker for help the third time and did what the coworker told her.

        No, she did not do what her coworker told her. Because her coworker did not tell her that *cheese* is OK – and what’s more, cheese is one of the signature items that vegans don’t eat.

        Is she a bully? I don’t know. But this is well beyond an “excusable” mistake.

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        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          “asking Ron to open his gift to show the popcorn intended for Liz. Liz was very quiet throughout, and the coworker who had recommended the popcorn said she had indeed suggested this to Marie.”

          The letter says that the coworker who recommend the popcorn said she had suggested this to Marie. The coworker didn’t say, “I recommended popcorn but not this set.” The coworker said that this is what they suggested.

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          1. Jennifer Strange*

            The letter says that the coworker who recommend the popcorn said she had suggested this to Marie. The coworker didn’t say, “I recommended popcorn but not this set.” The coworker said that this is what they suggested.

            That is quite the hairsplitting you’ve got going on there. To split even more hairs, the letter doesn’t quote exactly what the coworker said, so for all we know she did say, “I recommended popcorn but not the set.” More likely it was something like, “I told her to get you popcorn, so it was just a mistake that you opened Ron’s gift” (so not mentioning the seasoning at all).

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          2. fhqwhgads*

            It suggests the coworker is saying “yeah she asked me and I suggested popcorn” before the whole, label-reading opening-of-box bit happened.
            The point of corroborating the ask is “see she was trying” not to rope himself into “I suggested a not vegan popcorn kit and she purchased it at my rec”.

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      3. MsM*

        I realize people are dense about this, but I honestly find the leather gift hardest to justify. I get maybe not thinking that animal byproducts like honey and dairy harm the animals, especially if you’re buying from small independent farms, but something definitely has to die before you can use its skin like that.

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        1. amoeba*

          I realise this is OT but… dairy is definitely not a by-product in any way? Something definitely does have to die for a cow to give milk as well, as the cow needs to be pregnant to give milk…

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          1. Parenthesis Guy*

            That makes a lot of sense now that you mention it, but I didn’t know that. But is the fetus normally killed or is it born?

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          2. ThatGirl*

            Calves don’t die for milk production! You can argue that the cows are mistreated, and yes, sometimes culled for lack of production or other reasons, but the calves aren’t being slaughtered willy-nilly.

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            1. Alf*

              I really don’t want to derail this thread but this is factually incorrect. A large percentage of male calves are slaughtered for veal within the first week of their lives.

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                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  To clarify, the concern is that factory farms that produce dairy require pretty significant animal suffering in order to be profitable, and some people choose not to support that. But again, I’m asking that we move on from this.

    6. Colette*

      If she’d claimed Marie was bullying her after the honey, I’d agree she was overreacting. But it has been three years, and this year she unwrapped a gift of meat. I don’t think “bullying” is a big stretch. (I know Marie says it wasn’t, but who wraps gifts and labels them later?)

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      1. What_the_What*

        Meh. I don’t think it’s bullying per se–it is one event per year, and bullying is really about ongoing continuous behavior, but I DO think it’s completely disrespectful perhaps to the point of appearing hostile, and honestly if I were Liz I’d say, “I’m opting out of the gift exchanges going forward,” or suggest they move to a drawing of names with 3 gift suggestions from the recipient.

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        1. Smithy*

          Yeah – if every year I was expected to buy 5 gifts for all my coworkers, and then feel like what I’m receiving is not of value – it would irk. Marie might be the easiest target for egregiously dropping the ball, but let’s say that the other 4 gifts were also mediocre to poor. It could easily add up to really not enjoying the entire practice.

          This may be a larger work issue – but it might also be a case where a long-standing tradition worked when everyone had fairly similar tastes/likes but doesn’t work for someone outside the group. A case where everyone supports a local sports team and likes a local donut shop, with that alone you have a variety of $25 and under gift options that are likely to be at least mildly enjoyed. Then you get a new employee who’s gluten free and doesn’t watch sports and suddenly the gifts really miss. So instead of modifying the practice to ensure that person is more likely to get what they want, they end up feeling problematized for not being like their coworkers.

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      2. HBJ*

        I mentioned this up thread, but this is soooo easy to do. You don’t even have to be labeling them substantially later. I literally put my kid’s gift in the wrong stocking at Christmas this year. Stocking items in our family aren’t even wrapped!, and I still managed to mix it up.

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    7. Brain Sturgeon*

      Same. And I don’t get where Marie was a “bit of an ass” according to AAM.

      I think Marie genuinely had good intentions and is actually being WAY nicer than necessary getting each of her coworker’s personalised holiday gifts. Liz is getting upset over something incredibly minor. Accepting stuff like this happening with graciousness is just part of choosing a lifestyle that is out of the mainstream.

      Poor Marie should probably just give up on the gifts next year.

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      1. Dom*

        If you reread the OP, it’s not something Marie is doing out of the blue – it’s an organised gift exchange and everyone buys a gift for everyone else. If Liz is repeatedly buying gifts for people and Marie keeps giving her non-vegan things in exchange, three years running, and after Marie has apparently repeatedly apologised and said she’d get it right next time, that does feel like she’s being a bit of an ass. If instead of veganism, it was three different gifts along the lines of giving pork and alcohol to a Muslim, that’d also seem at a minimum like Marie was being very very careless and quite possibly an attempt at bullying. Many vegans take that aspect of their lives as seriously as someone else might take their religion. And besides, these aren’t relative strangers, it’s apparently a close office (or it seems that way to OP — I’m not so sure that’s true, based on the letter).

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      2. Dust Bunny*

        It’s not incredibly minor. Marie either isn’t doing basic research or is ignoring all she should have learned from past errors.

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          1. ShanShan*

            It’s a (best case scenario, accidental) microaggression toward a member of a group that is frequently mocked and harassed.

            The object isn’t the point. The event isn’t the point. The display of hostility toward vegans is the point. Even if it was accidental, it wasn’t *minor,* any more than making a big deal about how hard it is to pronounce a non -English name would be minor.

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              1. Jennifer Strange*

                You don’t get to decide what is and isn’t a big deal for someone else, especially when it happened three times and has to do with their ethical beliefs.

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              2. ShanShan*

                The woman handed her a box of meat to unwrap, for heaven’s sake. It’s either hostility or luck so bad it staggers credulity. And by “staggers credulity,” I mean that I’m fairly certain it’s a lie.

                I don’t know if you’ve ever been part of a group that people enjoy taking down a peg in public, but when people are trying to do that, their actions fall into some pretty recognizable patterns

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          2. Colette*

            At best, Marie is being incredibly thoughtless. This is the kind of situation “it’s the thought that counts” is made for – the thought does count, and she either didn’t think about what Liz would like, or decided Liz was wrong – not just once, but three times in a row.

            If I say I don’t golf and someone buys me a golf club, either they didn’t pay any attention to what I’d like or they don’t care – and now I have to get rid of something I didn’t want in the first place. If they do it three years in a row, it will absolutely affect my relationship with them.

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    8. Tippy*

      I think they’re both being a bit of an ass. Marie just seems…kinda dumb. I can actually get the cheese thing (I would not assume that cheese powder on popcorn has anything close to natural in it) but not knowing that leather is non-vegan is a little ridiculous.

      But as someone who was raised that all gifts should be accepted with gratitude I’m not too impressed with Liz’s attitude either. I had someone give me a gift certificate to a crab boil restaurant (for a moment, they were very popular where I live). Considering shellfish will kill me and they are very aware of that it was a bit of a funny WTF moment. Turns out they figured I could still go and they had checked to see if there was anything else on the menu, unfortunately I would not actually even be able to go in the building. I just said thank you, moved on and re-gifted. Saved me from spending money later on.

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      1. Not on board*

        “all gifts should be accepted with gratitude”…..

        Well, that really depends. If you had a family member constantly give you size small clothing as a gift when you’re plus sized – should you be grateful?
        If you’re Jewish and someone kept giving you bacon flavoured treats?
        If you’re sober/recovering alcoholic and they keep giving you booze?

        In particular since I’m sure Liz has spent money on thoughtful gifts for her coworkers, Marie seems like a total jerk. She’s either REALLY stupid, or she’s being deliberately obtuse. After the third gift in a row being inappropriate, I think Liz is right to be upset. And if I’m Liz, I’m just not buying Marie gifts from here on in, and returning any gift from Marie unopened.

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        1. Rara Avis*

          My sister-in-law consistently gave my child clothing 2 sizes too small. I don’t know if she was sizing off her petite grandchild (who was two years older than my kid), but she’d get a size 6 when my kiddo was 8. I smiled and said thank you and was grateful for the expression of caring.

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          1. Observer*

            I smiled and said thank you and was grateful for the expression of caring.

            That assumes it was an expression of caring. Now, you know you SIL, so I am going to assume that you are correct in her case.

            In most cases, though, it’s not an expression of caring. In this case, it seems like *not* an expression of caring is the best case interpretation and it’s not necessarily even the most likely explanation.

            Reply ↓
          2. Not Getting It*

            Well, you are clearly more saintly than most. Here’s your internet gold star for being just so much the better person.

            Reply ↓
      2. mlem*

        I really do think there should be limits on “ALL gifts should be accepted with gratitude”. Some people really do give actively bullying or egregiously thoughtless gifts, and if a “gift” is clearly provocative or demonstrably thoughtless, the recipient shouldn’t have to fawn over them.

        In the case you cite, they failed but they *tried*. That matters.

        Reply ↓
          1. Brain Sturgeon*

            Another aspect of this is that people (women particularly) get a lot of pressure put on them with regard to holidays. How hard does she have to try? Is it fair she’s apparently expected to participate in this by her workplace?

            Reply ↓
        2. Tippy*

          One could say that Marie tried as well. She’s not very good at it, but the effort was there.

          Maybe it’s just me but I just don’t get that worked up about being gifted a crap gift, from anyone. It’s a gift. Donate it, re gift, or pitch…whatever.

          Reply ↓
          1. lanfy*

            The problem isn’t that it’s a crap gift. The problem is that it’s a gift that’s against the receiver’s ethics.

            And that’s in the context of the amount of aggression that vegans have to face from society in general.

            Reply ↓
      3. Dust Bunny*

        all gifts should be accepted with gratitude

        Honestly, no, and this feels a lot like being told to just accept mean teasing so the boat isn’t rocked. If the idea is that it’s the thought that counts, the thought still needs to go beyond “Get Liz a gift”. Just remembering to get somebody something, anything, isn’t much of a thought.

        Marie could very easily find appropriate gifts but she’s not. Whether she’s not really trying or thinks Liz is a princess and is sorta kinda sticking it to her or what, I don’t know, but it’s a crappy thing to do.

        Reply ↓
        1. Observer*

          and this feels a lot like being told to just accept mean teasing so the boat isn’t rocked.

          Or worse, being told to accept “the compliment”.

          Reply ↓
      4. KateM*

        No, it’s the thought that counts, you know?

        And Marie either hasn’t been putting much thought into it or has been putting evil thoughts into it.

        Reply ↓
      5. Molly*

        I would explain it this way:
        Suppose a coworker had a severe peanut allergy. The first year, without thinking, you got them something that did not have peanuts, did not taste like peanuts, etc. But, it had peanut oil as a potential ingredient (it is not uncommon for a label to say vegetable oil and in parentheses say “may contain any of the following…” and peanut oil is listed.
        So the next year you double-check for peanut oil, but don’t notice that the chocolates you bought state that they are manufactured in a facility that also processes nuts
        Finally, the third year. You carefully check oil and manufacturing processes, but you somehow, don’t label the gift until all are wrapped. When the person opens it, they got the one contains a jar of peanut butter! When you explain the error, and give them their intended gift, that gift contains a package of chopped peanuts that you figured they could just toss.
        Sorry, but all that combined makes the gift giver at least a bit of an ass.

        Reply ↓
        1. ShanShan*

          Also, those are escalating levels of effort. Marie’s scenario is more like you gave someone something with peanut oil, then peanut powder, then peanut oil again.

          Reply ↓
      6. Starbuck*

        “But as someone who was raised that all gifts should be accepted with gratitude”

        That’s your own personal value but it’s definitely not universal! I personally hate the expectation that I perform fake gratitude when receiving something that the giver should have known I can’t use. I also hate the burden of having to deal with an item I can’t use; I live in a very small space and have pretty intense executive disfunction so the task of passing on items like these is pretty onerous. I find being given this chore incredibly rude.

        Reply ↓
      7. Blue Pen*

        …but why did they buy you a gift certificate to that restaurant, knowing your allergy to shellfish, in the first place?

        I mean, if you’re taking the act of gift giving in the most objectively fundamental way—i.e., someone spent their money on me—then, sure, I guess gratitude comes into play. But if you’re spending money in such a way where I can’t benefit from the gift, then I don’t see why someone should be grateful for that. Barring an unintended slight (you accidentally got the wrong size, for example), if someone gave me a gift card to a seafood restaurant with knowledge that I’m severely allergic to shellfish, I would think they were an idiot at best.

        Reply ↓
        1. Blue Pen*

          And I want to be clear about unintended slights in gift-giving. I’m not talking about “oh, I wish the person got me the black sweater instead of a blue one.” I’m talking about “I’m deathly allergic to shellfish, and this person who knows that bought me a gift card to a lobster shack.”

          Reply ↓
      8. Reb*

        I was also raised that all gifts were to be accepted with gratitude. Including the time my dad’s friend bought me a bunch of “adult” gifts despite knowing I was icked out at the thought of kissing, let alone genitalia. I did not accept those “gifts” with gratitude. Just because you were raised that way doesn’t mean it was right.

        Reply ↓
    9. TechWorker*

      It seems an outsize reaction to a gift. They ALL get gifts for each other (crazy to me but there you go) so Liz has received 4 other presumably acceptable gifts every year. Roll your eyes and know that Marie doesn’t pay much attention and didn’t try that hard with the gift, sure. Ice her out and claim bullying even after an apology.. really?

      I may have a low barrier for ignoring useless gifts given my dad has on MORE than one occasion bought me earrings despite me never having pierced my ears :D (this year I didn’t ignore it but just said ‘oh you’ll have to give this to one of my sisters’ – no big deal..)

      Reply ↓
      1. What_the_What*

        Agreed. I really enjoy giving gifts. It’s one of my love languages. I shop all year for “oh so and so will LOVE this” type stuff and people seem to really appreciate the thoughtfulness. Receiving them though… well I’m almost universally disappointed (looking at you electric carving knife, sigh) but I get that not everybody has that mental energy to expend on buying gifts so I say Thank You and I either put it away until I can regift or donate it, or I use it once or twice and then it has a mysterious unsolvable issue requiring disposal.

        Reply ↓
        1. ShanShan*

          But neither one of you is part of a group that people routinely harass and mock for fun, and the problems with the gifts you received were not directly related to your membership in this group.

          The problem isn’t that Liz didn’t like the gifts. It’s that Liz is a vegan and most vegans have been harassed and laughed at for their beliefs, often on a regular basis, and often by people they thought were their friends.

          Someone on an earlier comment made the comparison of buying small clothes for an overweight person, which is a very apt comparison.

          Reply ↓
      2. KateM*

        So, your father regularly gives you gifts that basically are not for you but one of your sisters and you are left without gift, and you are happy with that. Well, you have grown up with him so maybe you don’t know to expect more care…

        Reply ↓
        1. TechWorker*

          To be fair this Christmas he got me two things, so one gift was still suitable. (Although to be honest hugely not to be my taste so probably won’t get much usage). But no, I don’t generally expect people to be amazing at gift giving (lots aren’t, even when they try) and I certainly wouldn’t expect it of a coworker. Our work secret santa this year we were asked to give suggestions, maybe that could work.

          Reply ↓
      3. Grimsby*

        I’m so sorry your father has treated you so badly that you think this is so little. You deserved better from him.

        And others deserve to be treated with respect too.

        Reply ↓
        1. TechWorker*

          We really just have differences of opinion here. Not being able to remember which daughter has pierced ears (& yes he also forgets my dietary requirements, though I generally bring my own stuff) is not a huge deal to me – there’s more important stuff to a relationship! The point I was really making is I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect coworkers to give super thoughtful and appropriate gifts (so maybe don’t do gift giving at all, could the the conclusion)

          Reply ↓
    10. spcepickle*

      I agree. While it is true that giving dairy to a vegan is not great, they are also just a coworker. I do not expect my coworkers to know details about my life. I also think it is unfair to ask people who are not my friends or loved ones to remember and know details about each coworker.
      The easier answer to this is to stop exchanging gifts with all your coworkers. It sounds expensive, exhausting, and wasteful.

      Reply ↓
      1. mlem*

        I don’t expect my coworkers to know details about my life randomly, sure. But if my coworker demonstrably learned a detail and then not once but twice more proceeded to get THAT SPECIFIC DETAIL wrong … I’d feel alienated. Gifts should signify that the recipient matters to the giver, and these gifts signify the opposite.

        I agree that the exchange is probably just a bad idea.

        Reply ↓
    12. SoonToBeEsquire*

      I actually agree. If I were Marie I would just not get a gift for Liz any more especially after being accused of bullying. These days everyone is so quick to jump to offense especially over small personal things.

      Reply ↓
      1. zillah*

        i agree that often people will assume the worst in a way that’s counter productive, and there are definitely areas of my life where i just don’t bother to explain my dietary things to people anymore, and i do think that sometimes people just don’t get it without malice meant.

        but i also think that issues around dietary restrictions, veganism, etc can be really loaded. ime, people will sometimes try to find an analogous situation in their own lives to empathize what people are dealing with, but they miss a lot of the underlying issues that go along with it. i’ve also sometimes had food i don’t like – it’s very different than food i can’t eat.

        i don’t think that gifts once a year are bullying, but in liz’s situation, i’d be feeling uncomfortable enough that i would want to raise it with the boss to ensure it didn’t happen in the future, bc even if marie wasn’t trying to be hurtful, her actions would still be upsetting to me in the context of my life – which is often how upsetting things are, yk?

        Reply ↓
    13. CaffeineFiend*

      Same. Marie was a bit sloppy, and for the third year probably should have asked.

      The first year is entirely forgiveable – I very rarely anymore see vegans that refuse to use honey since most people consider beekeeping including harvesting the honey to be mutually beneficial and… it’s not like you can really just cage bees. To my knowledge, if the bees weren’t fine with some of the honey being harvested periodically they could just… go build a hive elsewhere. She probably should have asked Liz directly her stance on honey, but it’s possible another vegan Marie has encountered was fine with it so she assumed that was the case.

      For the popcorn, I think it’s reasonable that she either assumed that everything the recommended popcorn(assuming it was a certain brand) sold was vegan, or that the cheese seasoning wouldn’t contain dairy products. I think a lot of people don’t think hard on where flavorings come from and assume it’s all chemicals. I’ve also seen vegan snacks akin to cheetos, and numerous videos of people using things such as nutritional yeast to replicate cheese flavoring.

      The most baffling to me is the dog collar – I think that’s relatively obvious but at the same time, it’s not a food product and most people think of veganism as a purely dietary choice and specifically as a protest against the meat and dairy industries, so I can even then see not thinking about it.

      I understand to an extent Liz being aggravated, but these just aren’t all the most obvious things and a lot of vegans(and non vegans that have any concern for the environment and animal welfare) have varying opinions on honey and leather. I do think Marie should apologize, and ideally this should be something that can be solved by the two just talking. I think they would both feel better if Marie could ask Liz to tell her a little more about veganism and her stance(or, point Marie to informative sources so that Liz doesn’t have to do the work), and armed with a better understanding Marie could then come back with a suitable replacement gift. And she should probably just stay away from food gifts at this point unless there’s a good vegan bakery as others suggested… (I know this last part is wishful thinking and maybe more effort than either want to put in if they can still get work done in a civil manner)

      Reply ↓
  6. Catgirl*

    There are vegan stores that sell only vegan products. After accidentally messing up the first two times, why risk shopping at a non-vegan store?

    Reply ↓
        1. LCH*

          but amazon is notorious for fakes (at least in beauty products) so i don’t think i’d trust other products to be what they say they are. at least you’d be getting something that says on the packaging that it is vegan.

          Reply ↓
          1. Bella Ridley*

            What on earth kind of argument is this? Don’t trust things labelled vegan because they may not actually be vegan because they’re fake? This kind of purity test is ridiculous.

            Reply ↓
            1. ThisIsNotADuplicateComment*

              The argument of “don’t trust things labelled vegan on amazon because amazon’s quality control can be hard to trust” seems perfectly reasonable to me. Especially with someone like Marie who is already struggling to get this right.

              Reply ↓
              1. I Have RBF*

                Most food items on Amazon have pictures of the ingredients labels. Also, stores get fakes too. If you stick to known brands you usually don’t have a problem, but you need to make sure they shipped you the actual brand.

                Reply ↓
          2. Observer*

            Amazon is not the only game in town.

            Just for curiosity, I googled “on line candy store”. I got a bunch of responses. I chose the first one, and clicked on “gifts”. The filter includes “vegan”. And that comes up with 9 options.

            The point being that it took me less time to do this “research” than it did to type this all out.

            Reply ↓
        2. Head Sheep Counter*

          Lets imagine… you are vegan for ethical reasons. How does supporting this company support those ethics?

          Reply ↓
      3. Insert Clever Name Here*

        The other people in the office seem to find appropriate things for Liz somewhere so there is clearly a solution in this instance.

        Reply ↓
    2. Jellyfish Catcher*

      My question is why, WHY is Marie always assigned to get a “present” for Liz,
      year after year ?? I don’t blame her for feeling cool toward Marie – 3 times in a row!

      This third year has to be the last time that Liz (and Marie) are put through through this wringer, even if it’s only sincere but poor judgment from Marie.

      Your manager should draw names, and (ahem…) check ‘em twice to make sure that combo doesn’t happen again.

      Reply ↓
      1. TechWorker*

        She’s not always assigned, they all get gifts for each other. Which tbh makes me think that one dud in the bunch is a bit *shrug*

        Reply ↓
  7. Czhorat*

    Yeah, I really feel for Liz here. Not only is it three years in a row, but imagine the shock of getting literal meats after two years of incidentally non-vegan gifts.

    Marie also should have gotten a replacement last year at the very least, even if she left the one with the honey as an inadvertent and unfortunate miss. The general rule is that if you messed up then it’s on you to fix it, whether or not the other person insists on a fix.

    The other thing to check is that the value of the gifts is comparable; “fancy popcorn” sounds like a lesser thing than the meat and cheese gift-basket; it certainly *feels* less substantial.

    Reply ↓
    1. Frenchman Ben*

      Yeah “fancy popcorn” to me sounds as “just popcorn but we’re trying to make it look like a nicer gift” from whichever brand or store labeled it as such. It’s also considerably less filling than meat and cheese, no matter how fancy you make it.

      Reply ↓
        1. AngryOctopus*

          I think it’s unpopped popcorn (since it’s coming with seasonings), which would be an OK gift if the seasonings were vegan. But really Marie is pretty ignorant to not be doing a quick “gifts for vegans” search.

          Also, LW, this tradition is clearly not working anymore and needs to be shut down.

          Reply ↓
          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            I would not assume unpopped popcorn. Those big metal tins of flavored (popped) popcorn are very popular holiday gifts – we used to get several from customers and vendors at my old office. Look up Kansas City Popcorn Co for an example.

            Reply ↓
            1. AngryOctopus*

              Yes, I know it exists. But this gift specifically comes with seasonings—generally the pre-popped tins come with butter or flavors or chocolate coatings or what have you on it, already prepared. Coming with seasonings makes me think it’s kernels that you can pop and put the seasoning blends on to your satisfaction.

              Reply ↓
      2. What_the_What*

        Meh. That’s pretty much a subjective thing, I think. I love popcorn and a gift of gourmet unpopped corn with seasonings would delight me, whereas those meat and cheese gift baskets (ala Harry and David, etc) are just IME universally BAD. Oversalty meat, weird shelf stable cheese spreads, stale crackers, jars of mushy olives, and highly processed cookies. BUT, I’m not Vegan, so ….

        Reply ↓
        1. Dek*

          Honestly, if we’re talking Harry and David, the PEARS *drool*

          My stepfather was a pediatrician and one of his patients would send him a box of those every Christmas.

          Now THAT would’ve been a nice vegan gift.

          Reply ↓
          1. CubeFarmer*

            One of my great uncles would get my grandparents a Harry & David box every year. Those pears were my faaaaavorite!

            Reply ↓
      3. ClinicalSnark*

        I would never consider ‘filling’ factor when purchasing coworkers gifts. Its a gift, I’m not filling your pantry. It sounds like Marie might do equitable gifts each year. Year 1 everyone got a honey. Year 2 some version of a personalized pet item. Year 3 pre-made gift baskets. Most big box retail stores or the fancy online places have a whole selection of gift baskets within different price ranges. Meat & cheese, fancy teas or coffees, chocolates/candies, and gourmet popcorn. Some of those meat & cheese ones have such low grade meats and cheeses included to make them shelf stable that I’d much rather have the popcorn.

        Reply ↓
    2. Magpie*

      I’m here to defend popcorn as a nice gift! There’s a popcorn company in my city that’s been around for decades and around the holidays they sell large tins of their popcorn as gifts. It’s so ubiquitous in this city that if you work in an office anywhere in town you’ll definitely have a tin of this in the break room at some point during the holiday season. The day after Christmas, they sell any leftover tins for half off and there’s always a line around the block of people trying to score one. Maybe this store’s gift popcorn is uncommonly good but it’s definitely possible to receive amazing popcorn as a gift.

      Reply ↓
      1. Magpie*

        Adding that I’m not defending popcorn as an appropriate gift for Liz. Obviously that missed the mark. Just here to say that not all gift popcorn is awful.

        Reply ↓
      2. cleo*

        Same! We may live in the same city (Chicago) and I definitely think fancy popcorn works as a nice gift (but not in this case for Liz)

        Reply ↓
      3. Yorick*

        I got a popcorn gift box for my husband this year. It’s several types of unpopped corn with a bottle of oil and a couple containers of seasonings. I would absolutely give this gift to a vegan friend even if one of the seasonings contained real cheese, with the idea that they can throw that seasoning away and still enjoy the rest of the box.

        It’s super different if this is a tin of popped popcorn with caramel and cheese on it. That’s clearly not a vegan friendly gift.

        But I can totally understand the mistakes with honey and even leather (if I bought a dog collar at a stand at a fair, for example, I might not consider what it’s made of AND many people only think of food when they think of veganism).

        Reply ↓
        1. Yorick*

          I’ll edit to say I would only give this to some of the vegans I know and only if I thought they would like the rest of the gift. I do agree it’s a good idea to try for a different gift. I would definitely not go for a food gift for someone with a food restriction I didn’t understand. But in general, food gifts are so easy! So I feel for Marie even though I do agree she’s being sort of thoughtless.

          Reply ↓
  8. Colette*

    I think Marie really needs to do better. The point of giving a gift is generally to show you appreciate someone; repeatedly giving something inappropriate is doing the opposite. “She didn’t know” works for the honey, but by this point, she should either know or bow out of the gift exchange altogether.

    But I agree that, as a bystander, there’s not much you can do.

    Reply ↓
    1. Required*

      I think that’s the key here. A gift isn’t required, so when you’re giving a gift to someone, you need to make sure that it’s something they’ll want and appreciate and something that doesn’t impose a burden on them. I’d rather get no gift than something I can’t use and also have to find a way to get rid of without just throwing it away. In this case, I bet Liz is feeling like she is being burdened with the items instead of being gifted them.

      Reply ↓
        1. Colette*

          I don’t think that’s necessarily true. In many groups that hold gift exchanges, you can bow out if you want to.

          Reply ↓
          1. Antilles*

            The group dynamics on that would be difficult for a six person group where everybody else participates though.
            If this was a bigger team, you could opt out and slide under the radar. Or if only half the office participated, you could easily swap to the “half which doesn’t celebrate”. But being the only one out of six not participating is very noticeable.

            Reply ↓
          2. Silver Robin*

            yeah but they all seem to be buying gifts for everyone, so Marie would have to not buy gifts for anyone and not receive any herself in a 6 person company where everyone else is participating. I think the path of least resistance here is for Marie to actually put in the work of figuring out what a vegan gift would look like and making things right with Liz.

            Reply ↓
        2. Observer*

          In this office, the gifts are required.

          Either way, though, you need to do the bare minimum, which is to take a couple of minutes – and I *do* mean “a couple” to find something the “giftee” can use. The analogies that people have been making to allergy are valid here.

          Reply ↓
  9. EMP*

    You’re saying the gift exchange “works for us” but…it obviously is not working for everyone, and now the whole group is being affected by coworker tension.

    Maybe change up the exchange next year

    Reply ↓
    1. Czhorat*

      Yeah; I’d personally hate having to buy gifts for an extra half-dozen people every year and probably don’t need whatever random stuff my coworkers think I’ll enjoy.

      The problem is that ending the gift exchange now can leave a bad taste in everyone’s mouth, with everyone assigning blame to Liz or Marie depending on where they fall in the overall conflict.

      Reply ↓
      1. mlem*

        That’s a good point. I don’t think the exchange is a good idea, but now it’ll land as “YOU’RE why we can’t have nice things.”

        Reply ↓
      2. Wayward Sun*

        I would hate it too. I’m terrible at picking out gifts and when I’ve had to do workplace gift exhanges, people always transparently hated what I got them. It just made me feel bad.

        Reply ↓
      1. Yorick*

        I think that’s fine, and whoever’s in charge can wait until this Fall to nonchalantly announce that we don’t need to do it this year. I think that could avoid the blame falling on anyone.

        Reply ↓
    3. What_the_What*

      Came to say the same thing. If one colleague is getting marginalized every year… yeah that’s not “working for us.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon Again... Naturally*

        This. For those trying to minimize Marie’s actions- this happened three times. Let’s not forget that at best she was careless enough that even after two years of getting inappropriate gifts for Liz and upsetting her that Liz ended up opening something that was the worst offender of the three years- and that’s the kindest interpretation of Marie’s actions. Marginalized is exactly what is happening here, and it’s not okay.

        Reply ↓
    4. Phony Genius*

      I had just typed almost this exact same comment, then refreshed and saw yours. Rather than duplicate, I’ll piggyback.

      Because the group is so small, the problems created here are amplified. I would end this, at least in its current form.

      Reply ↓
    6. Endless TBR Pile*

      I don’t disagree. However.

      Six people in the group, so everyone leaves with 5 gifts. For 3 years straight, Liz has received unusable gifts from the same person. But the other 4 people seem to be able to shop for her without incident.

      This isn’t a Liz issue. This is a Marie issue.

      Reply ↓
      2. RabbitRabbit*

        This right here. I worked in a medical office before celiac disease was commonly known in the US public (late 90s/early 2000s), and one of the doctors had been diagnosed with celiac disease. We all got small gifts for each other. Everyone managed to get appropriate gifts for the doctor who had celiac disease – except for the head doctor, multiple years in a row. One year’s gift was a box of fancy imported cookies from the head doctor’s native country – all very gluten-ful.

        (The first year after his diagnosis, I had found a potato-only vodka and made a homemade vanilla extract for the doctor with celiac disease.)

        Reply ↓
    7. JFC*

      I agree the whole gift exchange needs to be re-evaluated. I’m not sure how many employees are involved, but that’s got to be a pretty big chunk of change everyone is spending on everyone else every year. Plus, the awkwardness of everyone opening their gifts in front of everybody else? Personally, I’d go for a Secret Santa or white elephant method instead, or maybe scrap the gifts altogether and do a nice party or meal instead.

      Reply ↓
      1. amoeba*

        It’s six people, so not horrible, I’d say – if we go by the jar of honey, buying five of those would be fine for a lot of people. Like five boxes of chocolate or whatever. I’d say the issue would be more to come up with something that fits for everybody year after year…

        Reply ↓
    8. Catgirl*

      We do gift exchanges where you don’t know who is going to receive your gift and one co-worker always gives a donation to a charity as his gift. Here’s an envelope with a certificate saying $ was donated to this charity for this cause. We love it, it’s a great gift. Next year Marie should give a donation to a vegan cause after CAREFULLY researching she’s choosing the right charity!

      Reply ↓
      1. Phony Genius*

        I get that the people in your office love it, but I’d feel awkward being the one person walking out of the party not carrying a tangible gift.

        Reply ↓
  10. Dust Bunny*

    Yeah, this sucks, Marie. Do better. (Was the fancy popcorn really vegan, even, or did it have butter?)

    (I am not vegan, if that matters.)

    I can kind of see how one might not realize that honey wasn’t vegan but leather? The cow does not survive that process. It’s not even vegetarian.

    Reply ↓
      1. amoeba*

        Well, yes, but you could leave that out, at least – if there was additional butter in the pocorn itself, it’d be even worse!

        Reply ↓
      2. Wayward Sun*

        I’ll confess I had no idea for a long time that cheese powder had any actual dairy in it. It just seemed so obviously fake.

        Reply ↓
    2. madhatter360*

      Absolutely when you really think about it, of course a vegan wouldn’t want a leather gift, but I think there’s a lot of people who associate vegan as a dietary restriction and may not realize it applies outside of food items.

      Reply ↓
        1. Devious Planner*

          The point can be a lot of things. For ethical vegans, maybe the point is not to use animals, and that is interpreted broadly. For those who are vegans for health reasons, it might be strictly about the food. Some might be vegans for environmental reasons and maybe they aren’t so strict about leather usage. I would still not give a vegan a leather gift, but I would assume “thoughtless” over “malicious”.

          Reply ↓
        2. AngryOctopus*

          But let’s be honest, most people who are not vegan don’t see it as a lifestyle, they see it as a dietary restriction. So I can see not considering that leather is off-limits, because it’s not a food gift. However, Marie is clearly not taking this seriously.

          Reply ↓
    3. Anne*

      I could very easily see myself or others making a similar mistake with the honey and leather. It never occurred to me that honey was not vegan. And when I hear vegan I think primarily of food restrictions and not other restrictions, so the leather probably wouldn’t even register as an issue until someone said something.

      As for the popcorn… It can be hard to find popcorn gifts that do not have extra add-ons (such as cheese seasoning), so I could see getting this for someone with the assumption they would not use any parts that they do not like/agree with.

      Reply ↓
      1. br_612*

        But after the first gaffe . . . wouldn’t you then google? That’s what’s so off to me. You don’t know vegan restrictions and make an honest mistake, okay. But then google the second year. It’s right there on your phone, ready to tell you that a lot of vegans don’t use leather at all, and a lot of the ones who do stick to second-hand leather, not new. I’d be too mortified from the first mistake to ever make the second.

        As for the popcorn, if it was the first gift . . . maybe. But if she’s a vegan for ethical reasons, it’s still problematic because you’ve given her something made from animal products and the entire reason she’s vegan is because she believes that using animal products is unethical and involves animal cruelty. So it’s easy to say “just don’t eat the cheese part” but to her it’s still evidence that you don’t care about her sincerely and probably deeply held ethical beliefs AND now she has to get rid of it. That gift is a burden on her, and gifts shouldn’t be a burden. Probably not as big of a thing if she’s vegan for dietary or environmental reasons, but I’d still be annoyed if I were Liz because it’s SO incredibly easy to find vegan friendly gifts since vegan foods are literally marketed that way.

        Reply ↓
        1. Spacewoman Spiff*

          Yeah, the fact that she didn’t google and try to figure out a safe gift after the first goof really stands out to me and makes me think this gift exchange is just part of some larger issue between the two of them. Absolutely makes sense to me that after the third year of getting non-vegan gifts, the vegan would be getting upset. And heck: why not just ask the person directly, “is such-and-such type product ok for you?”

          Reply ↓
      2. Annony*

        Then don’t get popcorn? Giving someone something they are ethically opposed to and telling them to simply not use that part is really really thoughtless at best and low key malicious at worst.

        Reply ↓
      3. Rose*

        I think the “they can just not use the parts they don’t like” approach would work well if everyone was getting the same gift. In a box of assorted popcorn seasonings, there’s a good chance that everyone would get at least one seasoning they like and can eat, and they could trade or give away the ones they can’t eat/don’t want. (Might even be fun in some workplaces! “Ron loves cheese and hates anything spicy so Liz traded him for his jalapeno seasoning, Marie is allergic to cinnamon so everyone fought over who got to take her cinnamon sugar, nobody likes the ranch flavor so somebody put all of them in a box and wrapped it up for the white elephant exchange.”) And the gift isn’t for any one specific person, so there’s (ideally) a shared understanding that it’s impossible to please everyone.

        But when it’s a gift chosen specifically *for* somebody, it’s a bit of a bummer for that person to be told, “Oh, I guess you can’t eat this, so just go ahead and throw out the parts you don’t want.”

        Reply ↓
    4. Rara Avis*

      There are a lot of assumptions that everyone knows what vegetarianism and veganism entail — but I’ve never been exposed to proselytizing vegans and vegetarians, so my understanding was that vegetarians don’t eat meat, and vegans don’t eat animal products (I had not ever thought about honey being an animal product until meal planning for a group that included a vegan) — but today I learned it that it extends to wearing/using animal products as well. And I live in an area where these diets are extremely common — but I guess common enough that those that follow them don’t feel the need to defend them. I’ve seen a lot of comments along the line of “Everyone should know about leather” — but I’m here to say that it’s entirely possible that well-educated, well-read people might still not know.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jennifer Strange*

        Sure, but once you give a gift that someone can’t use due to a dietary restriction, wouldn’t you educate yourself on what they can use for future gifts?

        Reply ↓
        1. Bromaa*

          I mean…. yes, and I would google “vegan food” (which I am not convinced Marie did, given, you know, the cheese powder), which would not necessarily bring up “vegan lifestyle choices that aren’t food”. Or I would have gotten a non-food item, and it wouldn’t necessarily occur to me to me that it might extend past food — OR I might only be familiar with vegan as food-related, since for some vegans, that is in fact true. Twice is still under “a coincidence” for me; what makes this cross the line isn’t Gift #2, it’s Gift #3.

          Reply ↓
      2. Retired-ish*

        I agree with this comment 100%. I for one have only limited experience with veganism and would not have thought about the issues with honey, leather, or cheese.

        In addition, this whole issue involves buying gifts for a coworker, which in my world, would involve the following thought process: “Oh crap, the office gift exchange is tomorrow. What to get Liz? I’ve really messed up about veganism. Hmmm…Bernie said popcorn was okay. Here’s a gift tin of it. Done. Now what to get Bernie?”

        I’m not saying that thought process was right. Marie probably should have made more of an effort. But I can well understand how this stuff happens.

        On the other hand, I understand Liz’ frustration, having been on the receiving end of dud gifts. However, in my experience, office gifts have tended to be token gifts — a candle, a knickknack etc. Five minutes after bringing it home, I’ve probably forgotten it — or regifted it.

        The situation stinks all around. If the staff is that small, probably time to do away with the gift giving.

        Reply ↓
    5. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Except I do know vegans and vegetarians who wear leather. Some are actually vegan/vegetarian in diet only. Some are “whole life vegans” but will wear OLD leather (so still not a gift of new leather).

      It is a whole separate active debate about the overall harm of fast fashion and plastics vs durable already dead leather. Same as there is a whole debate over vegetables grown with bone meal fertilizer.

      Marie should do better, but I don’t think it is inherently obvious that leather is out if you are not exposed to veganism.

      Reply ↓
    6. zillah*

      for the record, i’m a vegetarian, and most vegetarians i know (including myself) will wear leather. it’s a dietary thing for us, not a whole lifestyle.

      not relevant re: marie and liz, i just wanted to clarify that.

      Reply ↓
  12. CubeFarmer*

    Marie is being really, really sloppy. It’s not hard to google “good vegan food gifts” and make a purchase based on the results.

    Kind of reminds me of a situation years ago with two friends. One kept forgetting to invite the other to little meetups she would occasionally have. The first time? NBD, we’re all adults. The forgotten friend said something like, “Hey, that would have been fun,” and the inviter friend said, “OMG, I’m an idiot, I’m so sorry! Nothing personal.” But then it happened two more times. By the third time the forgotten friend was like, “Um, I give up.”

    Reply ↓
  14. techie*

    The thing is, this could all be resolved by doing aware with these 1:1 gifts from everyone to everyone…I would hate that!

    That’s also what makes this situation so awkward. As a vegan myself, I received a company holiday gift of various chocolate treats that were certainly not vegan. Kinda sucked, but I gave it to a friend and moved on knowing that this was just The Thing they sent everyone. It happens a lot. But when it’s one person giving a gift to one specific other person…it’s a lot more understandable that Liz is bothered. Like, it’s been 3 years!

    Reply ↓
    1. Blahblahblah*

      YESSS! And if it’s only happening to her then I’d feel very much singled out and like she doesn’t like me.

      Reply ↓
    2. cindylouwho*

      Yeah I low key feel like the issue is getting gifts for everyone from everyone. Depending on how big their group is, that’s a lot of thinking about what people like/don’t like/can’t have that has to go into this!

      Reply ↓
    3. Jennifer Strange*

      While I don’t disagree that 1:1 gifts from everyone doesn’t sound pleasant to me, it sounds like it’s a tradition at the LW’s work so I doubt they’d be able to change that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Kyrielle*

        And if they specifically change it now, it’s also going to get blamed on Liz/Marie and create *another* layer of misery.

        Reply ↓
    4. TechWorker*

      This makes not much sense to me – if a large company is getting gifts for all of their employees, surely they have *more* responsibility to take into account dietary restrictions than if a coworker is getting gifts for their colleague (where just as with the company it’s easiest for them to get the same thing for everyone, but they’re using their own money and time to do so..!)

      Reply ↓
      1. TechWorker*

        TLDR: I think it’s a lot more reasonable to be pissed that a company assumes everyone can have chocolate than for a random person to not know honey and leather isn’t ok for a vegan..

        Reply ↓
  15. I should really pick a name*

    The popcorn set contained two jars of cheese seasoning, but I really think Marie tried this year

    No, Marie didn’t try. It would marginal effort to learn that cheese isn’t vegan, and I would expect Marie to put in that effort after making mistakes the past two years.

    I’m not sure why the LW is going out of their way to defend Marie like this.

    At this point, Marie shouldn’t give Liz food gifts.

    Reply ↓
    1. Nonsense*

      It’s cheese *seasoning* though. Since when is cheese seasoning anything other than chemicals? There’s definitely no dairy involved.

      Reply ↓
          2. br_612*

            My nephew has a dairy allergy. SO MANY of the “fake” cheese products have milk byproducts. Including those shakey containers you could sometimes buy tiny versions of at the movie theater. Kernel season’s? The white cheddar and nacho cheese flavors the first ingredient is cheddar cheese.

            Check the allergen listing. More of them than you think will say they contain milk.

            Reply ↓
          4. br_612*

            All those Kernel Season’s cheese flavors have cheese in them. Like the little shakey containers you could sometimes buy at movie theaters. Cheese.

            My nephew has a dairy allergy, you’d be surprised at how many things have random dairy in them. Always gotta check the allergen listings, even on like frozen hashbrowns.

            Reply ↓
            2. Spooz*

              Yup. I once ate some salt and vinegar crisps without checking the ingredients. Learned the hard way they were covered with whey powder!!!

              Marie is being really really thoughtless. She is not putting genuine effort into these gifts which would either involve quickly googling “what do vegans not eat” and skimming the ingredients list, or googling “vegan chocolate (or whatever)” and buying something labelled vegan.

              It is not rocket science. It is not a huge amount of labour. I don’t think it sounds like bullying at all, but I also don’t think it sounds like Marie really cares despite her protestations that she’s really trying. Because she’s actually not trying the two effective tactics to successfully buy for someone who has particular requirements.

              I am frequently given things I cannot use in generic group project thank yous where everyone gets the same miscellaneous thing (no dairy so no to most chocolates, no alcohol so no to the ubiquitous bottle of wine) and am not offended by that. I would be upset by someone buying a gift particularly for me that I couldn’t use THREE YEARS IN A ROW who made a production out of how haaaaaard they’re trying and how haaaaaard I am to buy for.

              Reply ↓
          5. KateM*

            Don’t know about you, but in my circle, people do buy fancier kind of snacks for gifts.

            *checks if there are any more of those fancy licorice things left…*

            Reply ↓
      2. I should really pick a name*

        There’s actual cheese and modified milk ingredients in the only ones I’ve ever read the ingredients for.

        Reply ↓
      5. Observer*

        Since when is cheese seasoning anything other than chemicals? There’s definitely no dairy involved.

        Nope, even seasoning is often made with cheese along with lots of chemicals.

        When you are giving someone food, the least you can do is to make sure that it doesn’t have ingredients that a person cannot have. Claiming that “cheese” anything “definitely” doesn’t have any cheese is nonsense and simply proves that the person couldn’t be bothered to spend a couple of minutes getting it right.

        Reply ↓
      6. AnonInCanada*

        I’m pretty sure cheese seasoning has elements of dairy products in it. Example: These are the ingredients for Club House brand Hot+ Cheesy Seasoning:

        Modified milk ingredients, Salt, Spices and herbs, Dehydrated garlic, Corn maltodextrin, Sugar, Cheddar cheese solids, Citric acid, Natural flavour, Dehydrated tomato, Yeast extract, High oleic sunflower oil, Paprika extractives, Sodium phosphate, Silicon dioxide, Calcium silicate

        So, yeah, Marie could’ve done better with this gift as well.

        Reply ↓
      7. Falling Diphthong*

        I would expect almost anything labeled “cheese” to have some dairy on the ingredient list, probably dried milk powder.

        –someone who reads labels because of a dairy-allergic family member

        When I started reading labels (this was a late arriving allergy) I was amazed that almost all the margarine at the market contained some dairy. Eventually narrowed in on Earth’s Balance, for anyone who needs some vegan margarine.

        Reply ↓
      8. Rose*

        Cheese seasonings typically contain powdered milk or some other kind of dairy. Even Kraft mac and cheese powder isn’t vegan – even if you make it with soy milk and vegan butter.

        Regardless, Marie could have easily checked the ingredients, or at the very least not bought a product that says “cheese” right there on the label.

        Reply ↓
      9. adk*

        They put milk powder in EVERYTHING. Check the allergens the next time you’re in the potato chip aisle. I understand milk being in Sour Cream & Onion and obviously Cheddar flavored chips, but why is milk in Salt&Vinegar chips? Or BBQ?

        Reply ↓
    3. JFC*

      Sometimes those gift sets don’t mention seasoning packets inside. Also, I’m failing to see why Liz couldn’t just toss the seasoning and eat the popcorn plain.

      Reply ↓
      1. Colette*

        She probably could, but that’s a (small) burden on her, particularly if she doesn’t want non-vegan stuff in her house. But it’s at best a poor gift – generally when you give someone a gift, they shouldn’t be expected to throw any of it away without using it.

        And the gift she unwrapped contained meat.

        Reply ↓
      2. Shiara*

        She can, and probably the popcorn with unusable cheese seasoning elements might have snuck by as okay if it had been the first year, but after two years of thoughtlessness, it just really emphasizes “I don’t understand what’s important to you and I don’t care.”

        Based on the vegans I know, they’d really rather not have animal products purchased in their name. Doing so, even if they can then throw it away and “salvage” the rest, is just not a thoughtful gift.

        Reply ↓
  16. Observer*

    Yeah, Marie is being a jerk here. Because while I can see how someone might not know that honey is vegan, leather is something that should at least have sparked a question in her mind. Especially since she knows that she is missing a lot of information here! So, even though it’s not “obvious” that leather was a problem, it’s already a bit much. But still within the realm of possibly (very) oblivious.

    But *cheese*? Come on. That’s not actually credible. And in a way, the fact that she made a deal about “asking” and then adding on something that is the most common example of what differentiates vegetarians from vegans? Even if it were the first time, it would feel intentional. In this context?

    Also, @Carlie is right. “Once is a mistake, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern”

    The one who is being unreasonable is Marie. She messed up. And her apologies don’t mean much because apologies that are not accompanied by improved behavior simply don’t land for most people. And the fact is that she has not changed her behavior. Because she “asked” but not really – she got the popcorn, but then added something without bothering to ask about the added item. That she chose to “not ask” about the most *obvious* non- vegan item in the book just makes it worse. At best, it’s willful ignorance, and that’s not ok.

    Reply ↓
    1. Morgan*

      Yeah, as I see it she got progressively more obviously less vegan gifts every year. Honey is disputed among vegans, leather is in my mind one of the big obvious “vegan vs vegetarian” distinctions, and then she handed her actual meat, only to say that was a slip up and hand her actual cheese instead. At any point she could have a) googled “vegan”, b) asked an actual vegan for advice, c) looked for gifts specifically recommended for or labeled as vegan, and/or d) gotten something that was vanishingly unlikely to have any vegan objections (admittedly not foolproof, but like, a book? A CD? A gift card?)

      From Lisa’s point of view it absolutely makes sense to see this as a pattern, and a deliberate one.

      Reply ↓
      1. Colette*

        Agreed.

        She might have been understanding (again!) about the popcorn by itself – but she first unwrapped meat, which wouldn’t predispose her to be understanding.

        Reply ↓
  17. Blahblahblah*

    Honestly, if that happened to me – I would just talk to Liz on an as-needed basis for work-related stuff but I would no longer associate or speak to her on anything outside of work. It would seem intentional to me at that point and I’d feel and think that Liz dislikes me, even if nothing else was going on.

    Reply ↓
    2. ChattyDelle*

      agreed. Liz is reacting appropriately – Marie’s made it perfectly she doesn’t really care what Liz wants or cares about. Marie’s “care” about Lux’s feelings is superficial at best

      Reply ↓
  18. cindylouwho*

    Every year, my boss buys our whole office chocolate and wine. I am sober and cannot eat chocolate due to migraines (which he knows). I always just graciously accept. Would it be nice if it was something I could have? Yup. Would I like him more if he made the effort/remembered? Yup! But having dietary restrictions out of the norm means that sometimes people don’t just get it. I don’t take it as a personal affront. In my opinion, it’s just not that serious. And it certainly doesn’t rise to the term of ‘bullying’ to me.

    Reply ↓
    1. Artemesia*

      Your boss is a jerk to give wine to people who don’t drink and chocolate to a person he knows gets migraines from it. Not that you can do anything, but he is a jerk.

      Reply ↓
    2. Dust Bunny*

      Not everyone has to follow your lead, though. And wouldn’t it be nice if someone GAF enough to give you a gift you could actually use? We have a coworker who is allergic to chocolate and another who is allergic to a strange list of fruits but we always make sure there are snacks they can eat, and that stuff doesn’t get cross-contaminated.

      Reply ↓
    3. xylocopa*

      Well, when someone is getting a generic gift for everyone–like wine and chocolates–that usually takes away any element of potential bullying, as such.

      Without any more info than we have, “bullying” seems like a strong word for the situation here too. But when it’s two personalized-but-inappropriate gifts in a row, I can see why there’s friction.

      Reply ↓
        1. No*

          No, Ron’s gift was a meat and cheese set the year that she gave the popcorn to Liz, and the letter makes it clear that the popcorn was specifically intended for Liz as a (bad, considering the cheese seasoning) vegan snack. She didn’t get popcorn for everyone.

          Reply ↓
          1. TechWorker*

            Oh lol I totally misread that as ‘meat and cheese flavoured popcorn’. Weirder things have happened…

            Reply ↓
    4. H3llifIknow*

      Your boss just seems … lazy to me. When I had 25 people working for me, it was much easier to place an order for 25 “branded jackets” for example than try to individualize gifts. My guess is he’s thinking along the same lines “I can order 40 bottles of wine and boxes of chocolates, rather than try to figure out who has what restrictions,” especially if he either forgets yours or just thinks “meh she’s one of 40 (or whatever number) that can’t eat/drink this.” Don’t get me wrong, he’s a jerk for not caring but I see it as being lazy rather than malicious.

      Reply ↓
      1. AngryOctopus*

        This. I had a boss who used to give chocolates to everyone at the holiday season. I had a coworker who didn’t like chocolate. She just shared it out, realizing the boss is buying bulk gifts for 10+ people, not all of whom she interacts with regularly, not trying to give individual gifts to people.

        Reply ↓
      2. lanfy*

        I once had a boss who bought wine for 20 people every year – except for the two Muslims in the office, who got something else (chocolates, I think). It doesn’t take all that much effort.

        Reply ↓
    5. EBStarr*

      Yeah, as a vegetarian, I feel the same way. My friend of twenty years just sent me an adorable care package this Christmas that had some non-vegetarian snacks in them (gelatin). I’m guessing she didn’t think to check for it and, like, it’s fine?? I’m an adult woman. If I receive a snack I can’t eat, I just…don’t eat the snack. I don’t expect other people’s lives to revolve around my dietary restrictions. I find it so touching when people do make an effort, whether or not they get it right.

      Marie DID ask people for suggestions on vegan snacks so she actually put in effort, she just…messed it up again. Honestly, she sounds like she’s maybe not the brightest bulb if she tries this hard and gets it wrong, but there’s nothing wrong with that either! It’s just the way some people are.

      The only way I’d sympathize with Liz here is if Marie is weird about her veganism otherwise, in which case this becomes part of a pattern. Otherwise, it’s just a gift fail; not everyone is good at gifts, and also, not everyone is good at logical thinking along the lines of “I should check all ingredients instead of buying Random Popcorn Gift Basket because one person said that vegans like popcorn.” That doesn’t make them a bad person or a bully.

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        Marie DID ask people for suggestions on vegan snacks so she actually put in effort, she just…messed it up again.

        In a way, it makes it worse. Because she did not actually follow her coworker’s suggestion. Which looks like she was “performing” effort rather than *actually* trying.

        Honestly, she sounds like she’s maybe not the brightest bulb if she tries this hard and gets it wrong

        If it’s cluelessness, then it’s at a level that is truly problematic. Between the pattern and the fact that she chose, after messing up twice before, to add one of the things that almost defines the difference between vegans and vegetarians, which clearly also going to some effort to personalize the gifts that’s just a huge “mistake”.

        Reply ↓
        1. Annony*

          Yep. Trying would mean reading the ingredients. I agree that she is being performative and I don’t think the gift mix up was a mistake. I think she is “trying” in that she wants to mess up just enough to upset Liz while maintaining plausible deniability and her victim status because vegans are just so unreasonable.

          Reply ↓
      2. lunchtime caller*

        ” Honestly, she sounds like she’s maybe not the brightest bulb if she tries this hard and gets it wrong, but there’s nothing wrong with that either! It’s just the way some people are.”

        That’s where I land to an extent too. Basically OP has to ask herself, does Marie generally strike her as well, kinda slow? Bad at remembering details, often makes mistakes, but otherwise kind-hearted and well-meaning? If so, then there’s your answer. If she generally seems sharp though with a mind like a steel trap, then it definitely feels more targeted.

        Reply ↓
        1. KateM*

          If she is always “kinda slow, bad at remembering details, often makes mistakes” then how does else does it show at work?

          Reply ↓
          1. PurpleCattledog*

            We don’t know what Marie’s job is. Not every job requires someone who is highly intelligent (although I know many highly intelligent people who are really stupid about things outside their expertise).

            I get Liz being annoyed. I find it annoying when my family stuff up gifts. But I think Liz is ridiculous calling this bullying. She’s expecting too much from a random colleague – and frankly I think she does need to understand that while the thought might not be enough, there are things you can and cannot expect from a colleague.

            Marie is trying to buy gifts for colleagues, one of whom has a lot of restrictions on what they deem ethical to receive. These restrictions are not ones Marie is familiar with. Sure she could put a lot more effort in – but it’s not really reasonable to expect your colleagues to put in that much effort. Year 1 she got everyone the same gift – unfortunately it didn’t match Liz’s ethical framework. Year 2 she bought a collar for the pet dog – it probably felt really safe as a gift. Unfortunately, also not in Liz’s ethical framework. Year 3 she’s worried, asked a coworker, and got what was suggested. While it was wrong – that really does feel like a genuine error. She asked for help and followed the suggestion. It would never have occurred to me that popcorn wasn’t going to be vegan (in my defence I’ve never heard of cheese seasoning – I’m not in the US so maybe that’s not a thing in my country).

            Yes it really is bad that she got it wrong again. But bullying feels like ridiculous overreach. If Marie is bullying Liz outside of once a year sort-of-forced gift giving – then the bullying would be there without the popcorn gift error.

            If I was Marie I’d probably just be sick next year and stay away from gift giving.

            Reply ↓
    6. Observer*

      So, your boss is a jerk. It’s not THAT hard to find something that one person can have.

      But what happened here is worse. Your boss is just doing the default “standard” gift, and probably excuses his failure to “make exceptions” by claiming you could re-gift or take it home to your family or whatever.

      But in this case it’s a *personal* gift and she’s clearly made the effort to personalize the gifts, as she got the other coworker a gift set that was clearly catered to his tastes. Repeatedly failing to get something usable when you are getting *personal* gifts is a whole different level.

      Reply ↓
    7. Aggretsuko*

      Frankly, it sounds like it’s too much effort to keep fighting that battle on trying to get him to change. (I concur that it’s lazy to just get everyone the same thing.) Like fine, whatever, handing that stuff off to someone else, same as ever. What can you do.

      Reply ↓
    8. Cyndi*

      I worked for a few years at a sports gear store staffed basically entirely by douchey sports bros who were varying levels and varieties of bigot. I expected nothing from them, as people. And even there, when the management gave everyone else a bottle of vodka for Christmas every year, they remembered I couldn’t drink and gave me a Dunkin gift card instead.

      Please expect, and ask, better from your boss.

      Reply ↓
    9. Falling Diphthong*

      I think a major distinction with this letter is that the gifts are uniquely chosen for each individual. It’s easier to shrug off the “identical gift to every employee” every year than the “I carefully considered exactly what you, as a unique individual, would enjoy, and this is what I came up with.”

      I think in a lot of offices, trying to deviate from generic, to generic for everyone except Sam, would lead to resentment from someone who thinks Sam’s gift is too nice or not nice enough.

      (Reminds me of an observation in a book that a uniform is not the wearer’s fault, and so the wearer can’t be blamed for its ugliness, unsuitability, etc. “The same for everyone” is often a helpful way to avert hurt feelings, since it’s generic and not personal.)

      Reply ↓
    11. Annony*

      You are talking about a thoughtless, generic gift that he gives to everyone. He literally doesn’t think about who he is giving it to at all. So even if some people like it, they know he didn’t actually think about what they like. This is a targeted gift only for Liz. Would you really just shrug if your boss gave lovely thoughtful gifts to everyone else and specifically bought you (and only you) wine and chocolate every year?

      Reply ↓
    12. Kelly White*

      I also don’t drink and have often been given wine from my company- to me, this feels different because that is a company gift that everyone gets and everyone is getting the same thing.

      The OP’s situation feels icky because these are supposed to be gifts for the individuals.

      Reply ↓
    13. ShanShan*

      As I say every time this issue comes up, your personal comfort level with being treated rudely is your personal comfort level with being treated rudely, not a mandate that other people are bound to follow.

      Also: there isn’t a whole culture centered around badmouthing and microagressing against people who don’t drink or get migraines the way there is around vegans. You can be pretty sure your boss isn’t actively trying to piss you off: Liz can’t.

      Reply ↓
      1. Non Drinker By Choice*

        I actually would disagree about there not being a culture around badmouthing people that don’t drink – the culture might be moving more towards being accepting of someone who doesn’t drink at all, but right now there’s still a lot of people who will make comments about non-drinkers, think less of them, and seem to get personally offended at them.

        Reply ↓
        1. Spooz*

          I quite agree. People can get VERY weird around people who don’t drink alcohol. There are groups where non-drinkers are actively bullied and mocked, and this is not a tiny minority of groups. There have been letters on this very site about it.

          Reply ↓
      2. PurpleCattledog*

        You’re lucky to live in a place that doesn’t have problems with non-drinkers! Attitudes are improving – but many of the things vegans have mentioned here are things I’ve experienced around non-drinking (being asked to justify, being told that something should or should not be consumed because another non-drinker is or is not ok with a product, being mocked, people trying to catch you out “breaking the rules”, people ignoring your limitations, having poor alternatives or none, options that are actually alcohol too, disparaging comments, the arguments about health etc etc etc)

        Also – migraine sufferers absolutely can and do experience comments and poor treatment about their illness. I’ve witnessed people minimising the illness, mocking comments, and accusations of putting it on to get out of things. And I don’t even get migraines so these aren’t comments aimed at me.

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    14. Mad Harry Crewe*

      But your boss is getting everyone the same thing, which takes some of the sting off. It would probably hit a bit different if you got wine and chocolate, but your coworkers all got, idk, tickets to their favorite sportsball team, or a hat in their favorite colors – something they not only can use but that delights them.

      Reply ↓
    15. KateM*

      This reminds me of all those stories about people who have been so long in a toxic environment that they consider it a norm.

      Reply ↓
    16. Daisy-dog*

      I’m definitely realizing that I have ascended to a new level of DGAF from reading these comments. I didn’t get anything from work for the holidays and last year I got something small and generic. I’ve definitely received thoughtless gifts before. To me…it’s just work. (With family/friends, that has a different standard.)

      Reply ↓
    17. Blue Pen*

      This line of reasoning is so irksome to me. Look, I get it — I’m a vegetarian with a gluten-sensitivity, so it’s not exactly a surprise to me when I come across a situation where I either have no option or exceedingly limited options.

      But that’s only changing because my co-workers are now aware, and they now make it a point to make sure that I (and others with dietary restrictions or allergies) can still feel included. Instead of enabling the viewpoint of non-inclusivity and “just be grateful to have anything,” think how much nicer it would be to feel just as seen and thought of as everyone else when it comes time to gifts and celebrations. You are not a problem in the workplace because you develop migraines to chocolate, just like I am not problem because I happen to not eat meat. It doesn’t make you or me or anyone else less grateful or eager to celebrate with our colleagues.

      Reply ↓
    18. Come On Eileen*

      I am also sober. My boss knows I am sober. She would NEVER give me wine. Giving alcohol to a person you know is sober is not a personal affront, but is highly inappropriate.

      Reply ↓
    19. Good Wilhelmina Hunting*

      Yep. Every year I worked at one company, I got something unsuitable. I’ve mentioned elsewhere the disappointment of losing a book voucher at a Dirty Santa to end up with some stupid DVD movie when colleagues knew I was studying. And the other years? A book of chocolate recipes, when my restrictions around sugar and dairy were known. A perfume set, when my allergies to fragrances were infamous in the office. And a bottle of wine, where the giver even admitted while handing it over that he remembered after purchase I’m teetotal (but gave it to me anyway). Was it subtle bullying? Maybe. However, like some other commenters, I was brought up to say thank you.

      Reply ↓
    20. Scarlert*

      I think there’s a big difference between buying something you don’t like / can’t use, and buying something explicitly against someone’s ethical code. People aren’t vegan *just because* of what they put in their bodies, it’s an ethical choice. By continually purchasing non-vegan products, Marie is making Liz complicit in something she finds morally reprehensible.

      And for anyone who wants to pile on about why it’s not reprehensible, please just learn more about what modern factory farming looks like and imaging your cat or dog living under those conditions. I’m not even a vegan, I wear leather, and it’s something that makes me super uncomfortable. Liz isn’t just choosing not to eat animal products bc of an allergy – she doesn’t want to be part of a system that treats animals this way, yet Marie has dragged her into it 3 years in a row

      Reply ↓
  19. JFC*

    Marie owes Liz absolutely nothing. Liz is picky (can’t use a freakin’ DOG COLLAR???!! — lady, your dog doesn’t care about your vegan stance), determined to be unsatisfied with any gift and has shown herself to be resentful. If I were Marie, I’d be the one frustrated and exasperated that I keep trying to be nice to my terrible co-worker and all I get is nastiness in return.

    Reply ↓
    1. Llama Wrangler*

      Curious what makes you define someone’s decision to be vegan as being “picky”… that’s pretty dismissive of what is often a major, and well thought-through choice. And if your choice is not not harm animals, why would it be okay to use a leather product for your pet?

      Reply ↓
    2. Ell*

      Liz cares and she’s allowed to care. This isn’t about what she feeds her dog or something, it’s about what she consumes and keeps in her home.

      Giving your coworkers something they can’t use without even seemingly thinking for one second about it is rude, and Marie has zero right to be exasperated. She gave thoughtless gifts without even bothering to consider whether they’d be appreciated. That is the opposite of what gift giving ought to be about.

      If someone were Muslim and were repeatedly given pork products this would be taken differently and there’s no reason Liz’s preferences and choices shouldn’t be given consideration because people find vegans annoying.

      Reply ↓
    3. Blahblahblah*

      Well, when YOU are the terrible co-worker to another then yes, the other person will eventually get tired of it and probably be terrible back.

      Reply ↓
    4. Jennifer Strange*

      Liz is vegan. There is nothing “picky” about that any more than someone is being picky by choosing to keep kosher. Just because the dog doesn’t care about the vegan stance doesn’t mean Liz should have to use a gift that goes against her beliefs (and remember, she declined the offer of another gift and graciously accepted that one).

      For the record, I’m not vegan or vegetarian, but I care about making sure gifts I give to people are things they will enjoy.

      Reply ↓
    5. Seashell*

      It’s rude to give someone a gift that is offensive to them, even if their pet is using it. I think Marie genuinely didn’t know or think about leather being a problem, but that doesn’t make Liz picky.

      Reply ↓
    6. Required*

      For every few leather dog collars that are purchased, an animal must have been killed to make the leather. To Liz, that’s why she doesn’t want one because, in her eyes as a vegan, she sees an animal death for a collar when she could easily use one that’s not leather. Sure, the dog doesn’t car, but why would Liz want something that goes against her stance?

      You’re right that Marie doesn’t owe Liz anything, but in the same effect, Liz owes Marie nothing. A gift shouldn’t be a burden, yet Marie is burdening Liz with gifts she can’t use. Liz was gracious to her coworker for the previous 2 years of gift giving, and all she has received is inconsiderate gifts in return.

      Reply ↓
    7. Dust Bunny*

      It’s leather. Vegans don’t use leather. She is allowed to care and Marie is a clod for not being even minimally observant about this.

      Reply ↓
      1. mango chiffon*

        Some do use leather. Not everyone who is vegan does it in a lifestyle way. Many people only do it for dietary reasons. I don’t think we have a good commonly accepted term to differentiate this.

        Reply ↓
        2. Paris Geller*

          I’ve generally seen people use “plant-based” when they’re only talking about diet, and “vegan” when it includes total lifestyle.

          Reply ↓
          1. Rose*

            Interesting, I’ve never heard that distinction. I’ve known multiple self-described vegans who use leather products (sometimes with the caveat that it must be recycled or thrifted). But I wouldn’t give a vegan friend a leather item as a gift unless I knew for a fact that they were cool with it.

            Reply ↓
          2. fhqwhgads*

            “Plant-based” is just marketing speak for “psst vegans you can eat this, but also we know lots of people are cranky about veganism so we’re not gonna say ‘vegan’ so more people will consider the product too”.

            Reply ↓
      2. PurpleCattledog*

        But I could also say vegans don’t have pets!

        Presumably she purchases animal products for her pet dog (she likely feeds it meat – it’s highly likely she also uses things like flea treatment and tick treatments for her pet).

        Given she has a pet dog (at least I assume she has a pet dog or that gift is really weird) it’s clear she doesn’t subscribe to all things that “vegans do”.

        Now Liz absolutely can set her line in the sand wherever is right for her. But it’s understandable that outsiders might not realise exactly where that line is going to be.

        Reply ↓
        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Sure, but if you know you’ve messed up gifts to her twice before wouldn’t you take the time to ask her where that line is so that you don’t continue giving her gifts that go against her beliefs? If someone kept Kosher and you kept giving them gifts that go against their religion, would you just throw your hands up and say, “I don’t know where you’ve set your line in the sand!”? I’m guessing not.

          Reply ↓
    8. Daisy*

      I would push back against this some. I don’t eat chicken, and it’s because I’ve kept pet chickens in the past and so for me it’s like eating cats or dogs. If someone gave me a gift containing chicken, it would be like…someone made it so that a sentient life ended for my benefit, which is not something I can generally stomach.

      It’s a lack of perspective and empathy tbh.

      Reply ↓
    9. Good Enough For Government Work*

      Speaking as someone with absolutely no dietary restrictions whatsoever – you’re coming off as deeply unpleasant here.

      Wanting to receive a present she can actually use, when presumably she is giving presents to others which meet this minimum criteria is not ‘picky’ or demanding. It’s simply wanting to be treated the same as everyone else.

      Reply ↓
    10. Lenora Rose*

      If you see the dog collar as an object which was created by an unnecessary animal death, then you can’t help looking at it as an insult, and it’s you, not the dog, who looks at it every day.

      I don’t know, if you buy me three gifts in a row which I absolutely cannot use, *while* claiming you’re trying to choose gifts for me personally, not generic gifts for the office, (AND are careless enough while wrapping to wrap me the wrong gift in the process!) I will begin to think it’s not just innocent cluelessness.

      Reply ↓
    11. Lightbourne Elite*

      I’m not vegan or even vegetarian and I’d strongly prefer not to use or be gifted leather products.

      Reply ↓
    12. Brain Sturgeon*

      Right?! No one is entitled to a gift from their coworker. If you don’t care for it, give it to someone who would like it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Seashell*

        If someone is living their life in order to make sure animals are not killed for their use (which isn’t the case for everyone who eats vegan, but let’s assume this description does fit Liz), saying, “Oh, if you don’t care for it, just pass this dead cow gift onto someone else who likes it” isn’t a great plan.

        Would you tell a Muslim, a Mormon, or a recovering alcoholic to just pass the bottle of wine you gave them onto someone else?

        Reply ↓
        1. Brain Sturgeon*

          Yes? It’s a gift – the polite thing to do is accept in the spirit in which it was intended – which doesn’t mean you have to use it personally.

          In the case of gifts made of animal – this is a once a year event. The impact on animal welfare from those three gifts is comparatively tiny compared to the vegan choices the receiver has made throughout the year.

          Reply ↓
          2. Spooz*

            But it’s not some generic group gift that everyone got. Marie specifically bought a specific gift specifically for Liz… specifically.

            If someone had gone to all the trouble to pick out a gift for me, knowing that I don’t drink alcohol, and had gotten a bottle of rose cordial for someone who has a rose garden, a bottle of apple juice for someone who has an orchard, a bottle of limoncello for someone who loves Italy and then a bottle of wine for me… yeah, I’d be miffed. Totally different from “here, I got everyone this same generic bottle of wine, oh whoops, I forgot you don’t drink when I was buying these six identikit gifts”. The latter is frustrating but not personal.

            Reply ↓
          3. Jennifer Strange*

            the polite thing to do is accept in the spirit in which it was intended

            Three years of being given a gift that goes against your ethical beliefs indicates the spirit in which it was intended doesn’t seem like a good one, even if it’s a case of Marie just being thoughtless. If someone were Jewish and received Christmas-specific gifts three years in a row don’t you think they’d have a right to be annoyed?

            Reply ↓
          4. Kibb*

            Your concept of politeness is deeply weird to me. And the emphasis on politeness is even more so. People are not required to be polite at all costs.

            Some things are more important than being ultra-polite.

            Reply ↓
          5. Observer*

            the polite thing to do is accept in the spirit in which it was intended

            One of the problems here is that given that pattern, the “spirit” may actually make things worse. Because it really is looking like the intention was actually negative.

            Reply ↓
          6. Kay*

            “the spirit in which it was intended”

            Lets talk about that though. If you give an atheist a bible, someone with a peanut allergy peanuts, a vegan meat, a recovering alcoholic alcohol – what spirit was intended there exactly?

            As I see it, the answer doesn’t bode well for you no matter how you spin it.

            Reply ↓
          7. Lange*

            Beyond Liz being vegan, I’m baffled by the “in the spirit it was given” comment. I hear people who give thoughtless gifts say this a lot. The spirit in this case is either, “I care so little about what you like I won’t even Google gifts for vegans,” or it’s “I’m deliberately going to continuously gift you something that goes against one of your fundamental beliefs.”

            Reply ↓
          8. Lemons*

            I do agree that coworker gifts just shouldn’t be a thing, but this isn’t an “I don’t like it” situation, this is an “I can’t have or use this, and everyone knows it” situation. The gift receiver is put in the position of not only not getting a gift while everyone else gets one, but having to be gracious about receiving what is essentially garbage. They are very allowed to be irked by that.

            Reply ↓
      2. Dust Bunny*

        Marie doesn’t need to give anyone anything, either. If you can’t be bothered to get an appropriate gift, don’t get any gifts at all, and since it’s crappy to single out one person, don’t get gifts for anyone at the office.

        Reply ↓
      3. Rose*

        Sure, no one is entitled to gifts from anyone. But if your whole office does a gift exchange every year, and you’re choosing to buy a personalized gift for each coworker, and you know for a fact that one of your coworkers is vegan, AND you’ve messed this up multiple times in the past…it’s pretty inconsiderate not to at least check the ingredients.

        Reply ↓
        1. Oregon Girl*

          agreed or google vegan snack box or vegan popcorn brand…..it would take less than 5 minutes of effort.

          Reply ↓
        2. Lange*

          Agree. If you are participating in a gift exchange, both people are entitled to a gift. That’s the whole point

          Reply ↓
    13. Constance*

      Wow. What a nasty, mean-spirited way to think. You must be very miserable.

      If you were Marie, my advice to the OP and to Liz would be to leave, because they deserve to work with decent, kind, reasonable people.

      Reply ↓
    14. Rose*

      Liz would be picky if she complained that Marie gave her honey in a glass jar when she prefers a squeeze bottle, or if the dog collar was blue instead of pink. Not wanting to receive items that go against her ethical views isn’t the same as being picky – especially since Marie could have easily googled “is [x] vegan”.

      I’m not vegan, but I take an ethical stance against buying things from openly anti-LGBTQIA+ companies. If my coworker knew this about me and still chose to buy me gift cards to Hobby Lobby or Chick-fil-A three years in a row, I’d be pretty annoyed. (Doubly so if it was a gift they’d picked out specifically *for me* and not a generic gift they’d bought for everyone in the office.) That’s not me being picky, that’s me not wanting to support companies that go directly against my values (or have other people support them on my behalf).

      RE: the dog collar – I don’t think anyone here is arguing that a dog should have an opinion on what material their collar is made out of. But dogs can’t own property, so the collar actually belongs to Liz. Liz is within her right to not want to own items made with animal products.

      Reply ↓
  20. MK*

    I would think the obvious answer would be to ask Liz beforehand. But then again I am with Mr.Knightley on the subject of surprises

    Reply ↓
    1. Anonys*

      But this would have only worked if Marie had shown Liz the exact gift beforehand. If she had just asked her: “Would a popcorn set be ok as a gift”? Liz would have likely said “sure”. Popcorn itself is vegan and it’s not like cheese is a standard add-on included in all popcorn sets.

      Reply ↓
      1. MK*

        Not really. She could have old her she intended to get food treats for everyone and asked her what work for her or where she could get it.

        Reply ↓
      3. Rose*

        I think it would have made a lot of sense to ask about the honey or leather, since there’s not a firm consensus on whether or not those things are vegan. In this case, though, Marie didn’t need to ask – she could have just looked at the list of ingredients and noticed that it contained dairy, which is pretty objectively Not Vegan.

        Or she could have asked Liz to name a few vegan treats she particularly likes, and then picked something from that list so there’s still an element of surprise. (But also still read the labels in case Liz’s suggestions are things that aren’t always vegan, like chocolate or potato chips.)

        Reply ↓
      4. Oregon Girl*

        While the grain popcorn is vegan. Butter is an incredibly common topping, as is cheese. Prepared popcorn probably is not typically vegan.

        Reply ↓
    2. Student*

      This. Especially after missing the mark two years, you’d think Marie would bother to find out what vegan means to Liz. People can argue all they want about some vegans eat or use this or that, so how would Marie know better, but all she has to do is ask. The fact that she asked a coworker instead of Liz directly, and Liz felt bullied by the gifts, leads me to believe there’s more to the story.

      Reply ↓
      1. Colette*

        Yeah. Lindt makes vegan chocolate, for example. Vegan bakeries exist. Marie could have stuck with her “snack” theme and gotten appropriate snacks.

        Reply ↓
  21. Ell*

    Marie seems aggressively ignorant here at best. The first two were thoughtless and Liz probably did the right thing in brushing it off. But by the third non-vegan gift which was even more obviously non-vegan than the other two, there is a point where it seems like Marie AT LEAST went out of her way to not check her gift could be used and would be well received. She couldn’t just get her a scarf or a soy candle or something? I mean what the hell?

    Who wants to go through that every single year?

    It does sound exclusive of Liz and an unpleasant day where she’s probably bracing herself to have to slap on a happy face for whatever thing she gets and cannot use.

    I think it’s worth asking if, in fact, this gift exchange IS working. Doesn’t sound like it’s working for Liz. Is anyone else dreading having to pick out and pay for six different gifts for their coworkers? What if you hire someone who doesn’t want to participate for any variety of religious, financial, or personal reasons? It just seems like this tradition is rife with potential for hurt feelings and resentment.

    What about changing to a white elephant where food items are barred? That is how multiple offices I’ve worked for handle it (and food items are barred for religious and allergy reasons) and it still feels festive with less potential for exclusion.

    Reply ↓
    1. Czhorat*

      That she mislabelled them and gave Liz meats by accident makes me wonder if she isn’t being deliberately offensive; first, there is the insistence on “snacks” as a theme when she knows this is a potential minefield. Second, I assume the popcorn and meats boxes aren’t the same size and shape; a comparable value of popcorn would be a LOT more volume than dried meats and cheeses. It feels like it could have been a deliberate slight or, even if not, is *shockingly* careless.

      Reply ↓
      1. Colette*

        Yeah, the “accidently wrapping the wrong gift” seems … deliberate to me. Maybe it wasn’t! But that’s pretty far-fetched – do many people wrap multiple gifts and then label them? Because that seems like chaos to me.

        Reply ↓
      2. KatCardigans*

        Eh, I don’t think that’s really true. I’ve given these types of gift boxes to family before, and they could easily be the same size and heft. The bags of popcorn are often small, and two glass bottles of seasoning are heavy and can approximate the weight of cheese and sausage well enough.

        Reply ↓
        2. lanfy*

          Sure, but after you’ve twice made the mistake of giving someone a gift that goes against their ethics, wouldn’t you be a little bit careful to make sure you don’t accidentally give them the gift that *really* goes against their ethics?

          Reply ↓
      3. Observer*

        Second, I assume the popcorn and meats boxes aren’t the same size and shape; a comparable value of popcorn would be a LOT more volume than dried meats and cheeses. It feels like it could have been a deliberate slight or, even if not, is *shockingly* careless.

        Yeah I was thinking about this. I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought that it was extremely odd that she managed to mistake a package containing a “gift sets with summer sausage, cheeses, mustard, etc.” for a package with gourmet popcorn + seasoning.

        Reply ↓
    2. Delta Delta*

      But the scarf might be silk. Or wool. And here we go again.

      Regardless, if the gift exchanges continue as they do, Marie would be wise to get Liz something that isn’t tangible, like movie passes or tickets to a local play or something.

      Reply ↓
        1. JB (not in Houston)*

          Yes, it’s really, truly not hard to buy something that’s vegan if that’s what you actually want to do. I’m not vegan but have a good friend who is, and it takes just a very quick google search to find lots of options.

          Reply ↓
      2. Ell*

        No, this is NOT “here we go again” or some endless impossible quagmire. This is not hard. Lots of things are hard, and this isn’t one of them. Why are we doing this?

        It’s a holiday office gift exchange. Silk or wool are wildly expensive. This is a massive reach.

        Step 1: Just get a normal $20 scarf; a soy candle; a pretty notebook; a warm socks; infused olive oil; a cute picture frame; a tote bag; the inoffensive possibilities are endless.

        Step 2: ask yourself “does this contain animal products most vegans do not use;”

        Step 3: voila, problem solved. Zero handwringing about “here we go again” required.

        Reply ↓
        1. Rose*

          Yeah, it’s really not hard to figure out. If an item contains animal product, the label/tags/packaging will usually say so (even if it’s not food). Wool and dairy are common allergens so they’re usually labelled. Fancier materials like silk or alpaca are seen as fairly high-end, so if a product contains those things chances are it will be advertised on the label (and it’s probably not something you’d buy for a casual coworker gift exchange anyway). If it’s a clothing item, it will have the materials listed on the tag. And so on.

          And if it’s a case of Marie genuinely not knowing that a material/ingredient isn’t vegan (like with the honey), she can easily look it up to check. I don’t blame her for not doing that the first time around, but after it’s happened once or twice there’s no good reason not to be extra diligent.

          Reply ↓
      3. Kyrielle*

        Movie passes, tickets to a play, a gift card (to someplace that sells many things that are not animal-derived, not to a meat store, please, Marie!), perhaps a book (I’m not sure Marie knows/cares about Liz well enough to get her a book she’ll like, though)….

        Reply ↓
        1. Valancy Stirling*

          The “please, Marie!” made me chuckle. I can hear the exasperation all the way through the screen.

          Reply ↓
        2. PurpleCattledog*

          I’m wondering what the price of the gifts typically are. Movie tickets, and plays are expensive gifts where I live. Especially since you’re usually obligated to purchase 2 tickets for such things. This could easily be 3-10x the typical gift exchange value.

          (I’m mostly wondering if these are cheap gifts in the US cause they’ve been suggested a few times and they sound really expensive to me)

          Reply ↓
          1. Jennifer Strange*

            I mean, Marie got Ron a gift set with sausage, cheeses, mustard, among other things, and those are as expensive as movie tickets at least.

            Reply ↓
  22. GirlieePop*

    Why has Marie not just stopped getting Liz food-based gifts? There are so many gifts you can buy that aren’t food (and don’t contain leather). Some nice stationary? A set of movie tickets? A gift card to a coffee shop? A book? A small piece of art? A candle (many of which are soy-based now)?

    As a vegan myself, I probably wouldn’t say I feel bullied just based on these gifts (but I don’t know what their relationship is like outside of this exchange), but I would feel very weird and probably just stop participating in the gift exchange. I get that not everybody knows what’s vegan immediately, but 1) how hard is it to read the ingredients list on a package, and 2) how hard is it to google “gifts for vegans” and just buy something that’s vegan online?

    I also think a lot of people don’t realize how much it sucks to be opening a gift in a public setting like that and realizing it’s something you can’t eat/use (especially if people around you know you’re vegan and say something, like, “Oh, Liz, aren’t you vegan? Doesn’t that mean you don’t eat honey?”). There is so much expectation around how we’re supposed to receive gifts, but when someone gifts you something that goes against an ethical stance you hold, what are you supposed to do? And when someone does it three times in a row even after you’ve tried to help them understand? It’s got to be uncomfortable for Liz.

    It just feels like Marie is making this all way more complicated and fraught than it needs to be by being kind of thoughtless. She has so many options other than “buy something and hope it’s vegan” and she doesn’t seem to be using any of them.

    Reply ↓
    1. Parenthesis Guy*

      I think the idea is that if you’re getting gifts for five other people, you want them all to be similar. If you’re giving fancy popcorn to everyone, you wouldn’t want to give something else to a different person.

      Of course at this point, I’d probably stay away from food just to be safe. And probably even ask Liz just to make sure.

      Reply ↓
    2. The Original K.*

      Yeah, I agree – just skip the food stuff. I’d probably make a point to do that in this office because everybody doesn’t like everything and it’s too complicated to try to take everyone’s dietary restrictions into account. (I’d also be annoyed at having to add six gifts to my list.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Alexander Graham Yell*

        Right? Use literally anything else, there are SO many options that cost the same as what she’s spending now. And it takes what….a few minutes to pay attention to the things she already uses and just…get her that? (My coworker is vegan and somebody got him a coffee mug and the specific instant decaf coffee packets he likes. Instant hit.)

        Honestly, this really just feels lazy to the point of being kind of targeted and I get why Liz is upset.

        Reply ↓
    5. amoeba*

      I assume Maria is getting nice (vegan) gifts from the other teammates, otherwise she probably would have already stopped participating!

      Reply ↓
    6. Anonys*

      So many other things apart from food items are not 100% vegan that I don’t think this is a perfect solution, especially for someone a little (or a lot) clueless like Marie.

      My suggestion would be to ONLY by things (whether food or something else) that have a clear vegan label on them. That way both Liz and Marie can feel 100% safe in knowing the gift is suitable. I don’t know if it’s different in the US, but where I am many items contain such labels or are clearly advertised on the website as vegan (even something like Tofu, which to most people would be quite obviously vegan).

      Reply ↓
      1. Mockingjay*

        I’m trying to keep an open mind, but this situation is a sterling example of why office gift giving is so fraught.

        I loathe holiday shopping. I do it for family out of love. It’s a lot of work to find and purchase meaningful gifts while staying within a budget. I have great working relationships with my teammates, but I could not tell you much about their personal likes and dislikes, and food practices. I get that Marie did a poor job three years running, but I probably would have screwed up too – I know next to nothing about being vegan and a office gift is simply one more checkbox on a lengthy holiday list.

        Better to go with the suggestions to avoid food gifts or eliminate the gift exchange altogether. Work is already work enough.

        Reply ↓
  23. HotSauce*

    These kinds of mix-ups are the exact reason I don’t participate in these types of things. I’d rather be seen as a Grinch, than risk angering a coworker with a gift they don’t want/like.

    Reply ↓
    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Seriously! Everyone’s gotten gifts they dislike or hate before, you thank the person politely, and toss/sell/regift and move on. We literally teach toddlers to thank the giver even if they don’t like that toy.

      Reply ↓
      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        There’s a difference between “Grandma doesn’t realize I don’t like Pokemon anymore” and “Fellow adult who I work closely with repeatedly isn’t respecting my ethical values that I am very transparent about.”

        Reply ↓
        1. Not on board*

          Yeah, agree. The number of people slinging the whole “you should just thank the person and move on” are probably crappy gift givers. My husband, my parents, my siblings, none of us exchange gifts at all, so I really don’t care about gifts but this seems borderline deliberate of Marie to keep giving these inappropriate gifts to Liz. Either get it right, or don’t bother. The first time with the honey is understandable – after that – just no. Would they think these scenarios are okay?
          – giving tiny clothes to a plus-sized person
          – giving alcohol to a muslim / recovering alcholic
          – giving peanuts to a person with a peanut allergy
          – giving pork products to a Jewish and kosher person

          I mean, veganism is really about a belief system for most vegans so this is SUPER disrespectful.

          Reply ↓
          1. Statler von Waldorf*

            This point would be stronger if you didn’t insult everyone who disagrees with you by calling them “crappy gift givers.”

            Comparing a gift that can KILL the recipient (nuts for an allergic person) to a thoughtless but completely useless one is such a extreme stretch that my eyes almost rolled out of my head.

            Reply ↓
            1. Not on board*

              I was joking about the “crappy gift givers” and I also said “probably”.

              I think a lot of people don’t see it as a stretch because people often treat food allergies and food intolerances as if they’re not real and I’m not the only person who has made this comparison in these comments.

              But by all means, let your eyes roll right out of your head.

              Reply ↓
        2. Statler von Waldorf*

          You may see a difference. I don’t.

          I get paid to to treat all of my co-workers with basic politeness and respect. Respecting my co-workers ethical values has nothing to do with it, which is good, because some my my co-workers really suck as human beings and I am honestly unable to respect their ethical values. However, I can and do still treat them politely, because I’m a professional and that’s what professionals do.

          Liz is allowed to feel however she likes, however I feel acting like she is over a thoughtless gift is far less professional than the initial giving a thoughtless gift.

          Reply ↓
          1. Colette*

            It was three thoughtless gifts in a row, plus receiving the incorrect gift (and one she very well could feel is morally abhorent).

            All we know about how Liz is behaving is that she is cold to Marie – which is a very mild consequence, even if you assume that Marie is making mistakes out of ignorance, not malice. Liz doesn’t have to be Marie’s friend; Marie has made it very clear she doesn’t want to be Liz’s friend.

            Reply ↓
            1. Eldritch Office Worker*

              Right. She has yet to fill Marie’s desk with poisonous plants. I think any pearl clutching at Liz being chilly under the circumstances is a little much.

              Reply ↓
            2. Statler von Waldorf*

              I think that depends on exactly how cold Liz is being, which is fuzzy based on my reading of the letter. There’s a spectrum from slightly chilled to completely iced out, and while the former is frankly to be expected in this case, the latter is still not something I would accept in a professional office.

              Reply ↓
              1. Colette*

                That’s true. If she’s being rude or refusing to work with her, that’s out of line. If she’s just sticking to business, well, actions have consequences.

                Reply ↓
      2. Observer*

        Everyone’s gotten gifts they dislike or hate before, you thank the person politely, and toss/sell/regift and move on.

        Except that this is not what is happening here. This is the 3rd year in a row that she got a gift that was not just something she “didn’t like” but against her religious and / or ethical beliefs. At that point, it’s not unreasonable to decide that you should not “move on.” because either this person is being deliberately nasty or they are *so* deeply clueless that they essentially pose a risk to your well being whether they mean to or not.

        And that assumes that the mix up with the packages was actually a genuine and *reasonable* mistake.

        Reply ↓
  24. Seashell*

    You know what’s vegan? Cash.

    Seriously, though, this reminds me of when my husband & I were trying to figure out what to bring to a party held by his Orthodox Jewish co-worker. We worried anything food or drink-related would break a rule we didn’t know about, so we brought a plant.

    Reply ↓
    1. Mutually supportive*

      Weeeeeell, technically, in the UK, it (“paper” money) isn’t vegan… (link to follow)

      But I get your point :)

      Reply ↓
      1. Antilles*

        I’m imagining a circle of people sitting at a table just handing the same $20 bill around the circle until it ends in the hands of the original gifter and he puts it right back in his wallet where it started.

        Reply ↓
        1. wendelenn*

          I’m pretty sure one of the recent Christmas anecdotes here on AAM was about a group of coworkers who all just put gift cards into a bowl and everyone picked one.

          Reply ↓
    3. Audrey Puffins*

      Interestingly, not in the UK! They replaced paper bank notes with polymer banknotes, which contain trace of animal fats iirc. There was a huge uproar, but I don’t believe anything was done about it in the end, so our cash continues to not be vegan-friendly

      Reply ↓
        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          Physical paper cheque. Leave the “to” line blank so it can be passed around like the $20 mentioned above until it returns to the original individual.

          Reply ↓
    4. But not the Hippopotamus*

      Good call on the plant. When we host, we ask people to please not bring Anything At all. often, they do anyway, so we end up hosting on paper plates with plastic cutlery and passing around whatever they brought and not eating any of it. usually it’s room temperature, so I put some on my plate and move it around at the end of the meal. I dread bringing kf non-kosher alcohol with the expectation to serve it… which we invariably end up giving away when we move (our movers never break anything for some reason)

      Reply ↓
  25. FricketyFrack*

    My coworkers have literally all managed to give me vegan-friendly gifts for years with very little issue. I don’t expect to be catered to or anything, but they all say they want me to be included so they read labels or google “vegan candy/wine/whatever.” It’s a little bit of extra effort that I appreciate so much, but there are enough accessible vegan-friendly options these days that it does kind of seem like Marie either doesn’t like Liz all that much or she just doesn’t care enough to bother.

    Reply ↓
    2. amoeba*

      Yeah – I just checked out of curiosity and the online shop for our biggest national supermarket chain literally has a filter function for vegan products. It’s really not as hard as it might have been in, like, the 90s! (And even then, it would have been trivial to just get something completely different like a book or whatever – but I guess food used to be harder.)

      Reply ↓
  26. 40 Years in the Hole*

    Not clear if this was an exchange as in – pick a name, one on one to/from a specific person, or a white elephant-type exchange. The first is more easily managed with basic research vis à vis vegan products. The second is more chaotic in that recipients don’t know what they get till they “steal” the preferred gift. And lots of vegans I know eat honey – personal choice/philosophy. Vegan wine is not unusual (where I live anyway) but can be hard to source if your local proprietor’s stock is limited.
    But come on Marie – do better and learn how to google/read labels.

    Reply ↓
    1. Jennifer Strange*

      It sounds like Marie just gets everyone a specific gift, so she knew what she was giving Liz each time.

      Reply ↓
    3. Lenora Rose*

      If it was a gift exchange where they drew names, Marie wouldn’t be buying gifts for more than one person in a year so the box of sausages mistake wouldn’t have happened, and if she drew the exact same name every year, she’d probably ask the person in charge of the draw if she could switch recipient. If it was an exchange where they all opened generic gifts, again, the chances Marie would buy a dog collar would be nil.

      Reply ↓
    4. JustKnope*

      Considering OP says “We hold a gift exchange where basically everyone buys a gift for everyone else” and Marie’s gifts were labeled “Ron” and “Liz” it’s very clear what’s happening. Each person buys a gift for all the other coworkers.

      Reply ↓
  27. Endless TBR Pile*

    If Liz had received 3 non-vegan gifts from 3 different coworkers 3 years in a row, I’d say her frustration was warranted, but her reaction would be outsized. But 3 years, in a row, from the SAME coworker? And no one else seems to have an issue getting her something she likes and enjoys?

    I don’t think Liz is in the wrong, and I don’t think this is on accident.

    Not knowing honey isn’t vegan? Totally plausible. Leather? I mean… less so. It’s animal hide. And then the “accidental” gift swap? Sorry, I’m not buying it. And the woe-is-me Marie is pulling because she just feels soooo bad reads as another form of bullying. “I’m trying, but Liz is just so unreasonable!”

    OP, no advice except to stay out of it, because Marie is an ass and Liz is right to be upset.

    Reply ↓
    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      And no one else seems to have an issue getting her something she likes and enjoys?

      Yeah this is an important part of all this.

      Reply ↓
  28. ChurchOfDietCoke*

    I know enough vegans who wear leather shoes and carry leather bags to think that the refusal of the dog collar was a slight over-reaction.

    FYI, as well as honey, some vegans choose not to eat figs. Probably don’t Google that if you’re eating as you read…

    Reply ↓
    2. Nina*

      Some vegans do go ‘well, animal was probably killed for meat anyway, using the leather (or vintage leather) is okay’, some go ‘animal product – no thanks’. Clearly Liz is the latter kind.

      Reply ↓
    3. MsM*

      Just because some people are willing to make compromises or are inconsistent in their application of vegan principles doesn’t mean those who are more stringent aren’t allowed to have strong feelings about it. My mom’s version of keeping kosher is “if I didn’t see them basting the steak in butter, I’m just going to pretend it’s not there,” but she wouldn’t be happy about someone trying to use her as an example to convince more observant practitioners it’s not a big deal.

      Reply ↓
    4. Lenora Rose*

      Unless they’re pleather and you assumed.

      Or there’s something else to it. I know a vegan who will accept vintage leather, at least for a purse, but not new-made products; I guess the logic is “The animal died long ago, and this item has been in use as long as I was alive”.

      Reply ↓
      1. amoeba*

        I’m not a vegan, but I also see a significant difference in getting something animal-based for consumption vs. something that will hopefully last for decades, like a bag or a jacket. If you’re a vegan for sustainability reasons, that might actually lead you to buy leather because it tends to be more durable, thus produce less waste!

        But: I’d never, ever assume that without asking the person first!

        Reply ↓
        1. Dust Bunny*

          However, this isn’t our call to make. I don’t do vinyl shoes because they’re awful, but I don’t get to decide that my vegetarian and vegan friends should also do leather because it lasts longer. I ask them or I just err on the side of not giving them leather unless they tell me it’s OK. Marie didn’t do that.

          Reply ↓
      2. Alexander Graham Yell*

        Yeah, my vegan coworker has a gorgeous cashmere scarf that he wears because he got it when he wasn’t vegan and decided it was better to wear something that doesn’t align with some of his values than to add unnecessary waste into the world. (He could have given it to somebody, but he knew he’d wear it until it is unusable and couldn’t be sure somebody else would.) So seeing it it’d be easy to say, “Well he won’t care if you get him something with wool on it,” but it’d be completely inaccurate.

        Reply ↓
        1. Lizzay*

          I knew about honey & leather, but I never thought about wool being non-vegan. I guess it’s in a similar bucket as honey, i.e. the animal doesn’t die for it, but it’s still an animal product.

          Reply ↓
          1. Kay*

            Actually, the majority of honey has a significant loss of life associated with it. Any of the mass producers have no regard for the lives of bees, and lots of them die either during harvesting process (bees are injured, crushed or stuck in the honey for example), or because too much honey is harvested and the bees basically starve.

            With smaller producers there are very very few that use more modern methods to eliminate loss of life – so while they might not over harvest the honey and take better safety measures to protect the bees, it is nearly impossible to not kill bees during the process.

            Reply ↓
      3. Anonys*

        With buying second hand but not new products, as far as I know it’s usually not about how long ago the animal died, but that by buying second hand, you are not creating new demand for animals products and not directly contributing money to the leather industry (rather often given money do a charity shop or similar). Plus if an already made and purchased leather item is thrown away/not used anymore that makes its overall existence even less sustainable.

        Of course not all vegans agree with these arguments.

        Reply ↓
    5. Storm in a teacup*

      I think context is everything.
      My brother is vegan and will eat local honey where he knows the source.
      Similarly there is a local dairy near us that raises their cows in an old traditional way so the calf is kept with the mother and any milk is taken only after the calf has fed (and other things I’m not sure about the details of). The resulting milk and butter is expensive but he’ll occasionally treat himself to the butter

      Reply ↓
    6. Endless TBR Pile*

      My ex’s sister is vegan, and she provided a helpful list of “things you think are vegan but aren’t”. It was informative, and really helped when it came to food prep / gift giving. A couple I knew (honey and figs). Some I didn’t (bananas? apples? avocados?*).

      *some of these are very subjective, and of course can vary wildly.

      Reply ↓
    7. Jennifer Strange*

      I know enough vegans who wear leather shoes and carry leather bags to think that the refusal of the dog collar was a slight over-reaction.

      Except Liz DIDN’T refuse the dog collar. Liz said it was fine and declined receiving another gift.

      Reply ↓
  29. A Book about Metals*

    Yes of course Marie should have been more careful in checking, but imo Liz is escalating this way beyond what it should be. Complaining to the boss about bullying because of this?? That’s so over the top for a gift mixup!

    Reply ↓
    1. Jennifer Strange*

      It’s not just the mix-up, it’s three years of being given non-vegan gifts by one person who knows she’s vegan.

      Reply ↓
    2. Colette*

      She was given two (probably unintentionally) inappropriate gifts, then unwrapped a blantantly inappropriate gift as a “mistake”.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mutually supportive*

        And then when the “mistake” was swapped for the correct gift, **the correct gift** was ALSO NOT VEGAN!

        So that’s 3 in a row, even if the mixed up parcels hadn’t happened.

        Reply ↓
  30. HiddenT*

    Maybe an unpopular opinion, but veganism can be a very nebulous thing. Some vegans are more strict than others. Some people use leather products but simply don’t *eat* any animal products and call themselves vegans. Some people consume honey and still call themselves vegans because honey doesn’t involve *harming* any animals (especially locally produced honey). Some vegans are super strict about things like not consuming white sugar (because it can be processed with bone char) or whatnot, others aren’t. Being a vegan, like most things, can mean different things to different people.

    Both of the first two gifts were understandable mistakes. The third time, Marie really should’ve tried much harder (and probably avoided food altogether) because of her previous mistakes.

    As a vegetarian, I know that it can be really frustrating when people don’t “get” your dietary preferences. But I feel like Liz is being a bit precious. As Alison says, unless there’s other things going on aside from the gifts, claiming bullying is a bit of a stretch.

    Of course, we could also get an update in six months and find out Marie is an extreme carnivore who’s been on a campaign to gaslight and manipulate Liz in some bizarre power move.

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      I was thinking the same thing related to the levels of veganism. I’ve known vegans who wear leather belts and shoes. I know others who are all in. And all of it works. Clearly, Marie should have opportunity to know more about where Liz falls based on their regular interaction. And clearly, there are other people in the office who aren’t having trouble getting Liz something, so they could be a resource if Marie just asked. But this isn’t bullying if these are the only incidents.

      Reply ↓
    2. mango chiffon*

      Yes, my family are vegetarians but do not eat eggs (dairy is fine), but we often just search out food labeled as “vegan” or because it’s easier to navigate publicly. But they are not “lifestyle vegan” and don’t have any issue with using leather goods.

      Reply ↓
      1. HiddenT*

        Kinda like how a lot of the rules of halal and kosher foods are similar, so a lot of Muslims will buy kosher foods and Jews will buy halal foods because they know they’re safe.

        As a vegetarian I also enjoy many vegan foods, but since my vegetarianism isn’t for moral reasons, I have no problem enjoying my dairy. :)

        Reply ↓
        1. Kendall^2*

          The Jews I know who keep kosher do not rely on halal certification as sufficient unless there is also kosher certification.

          Reply ↓
      1. HiddenT*

        The thing is, that’s her choice, and I’m not going to judge her for being the most strict vegan (as long as she’s not doing something stupid like trying to feed a cat a vegan diet). But she also should probably have laid out her beliefs to the rest of the office before the gifts started happening, because then mistakes like this would be way less likely.

        Unless she already did and LW didn’t share that bit, in which case Marie is definitely a jerk.

        Reply ↓
        1. MsM*

          It might have been helpful before the first gift exchange, sure (although has Marie never seen Liz eat, or her reaction to other snacks people might bring in throughout the year?). But I really feel like “sorry, but I don’t use honey; I feel like it exploits bees” should be a pretty clear sign what level of strictness you’re dealing with and that you should err on the side of extreme caution in future.

          Reply ↓
      2. amoeba*

        Er, what? Liz seems like a pretty standard “by the book” vegan to me.

        Like, if Marie had gotten her a bottle of wine or white sugar or whatever, sure, that’s an easy mistake to make – loads of vegans don’t actually have a problem with that, and also, you really need to inform yourself to realise that’s a problem.

        But – honey and leather are both *so obviously* animal products that I really don’t see how anybody could assume they would be fine! Like, where did Marie think honey comes from if not bees?

        Reply ↓
            1. amoeba*

              Yeah, tbh, I also only learned that in the discussion here and thus used it as a more “extreme” example (because I’d literally never heard of it before).

              Reply ↓
        2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          I think a lot of people who haven’t given it much thought don’t actually think about bees as animals. They’re operating with a kindergarten idea of Farm Animals, so cows/pigs/chickens are Animals, and food from them would not be vegan. There aren’t bees in Old MacDonald’s farm saying buzz-buzz-buzz so they don’t spring to mind for some.

          Reply ↓
      3. Dust Bunny*

        She’s allowed to do that, though. And it’s just not that hard in 2024/2025 to find vegan gifts any more.

        Reply ↓
      4. Jennifer Strange*

        Who is to decide that it’s an extreme level? You? I am not vegan, and admit I’m not fully aware of everything that a vegan could choose to forgo, but even I know that cheese and leather wouldn’t fly for most vegans. That doesn’t read as an “extreme level”. Also, even if it were an extreme level, that’s not “being picky” that’s just making a choice for oneself, the same as choosing any other food/material restrictions,

        Reply ↓
      5. Insert Clever Name Here*

        Then give gin to your coworker who openly doesn’t drink, it’s their fault they’re so picky. /s

        Reply ↓
    4. HB*

      “Being a vegan, like most things, can mean different things to different people.”

      This is true, but I’m hard pressed to think of a vegan who would refuse honey, but have no problem with leather.

      I say more in a post below, but I don’t think the bullying is necessarily a stretch. Marie keeps claiming ignorance – which I’ll assume is completely true – but she’s not doing much to *cure* her ignorance. At a certain point, failure to make an effort to *stop* stepping on someone’s foot is practically the same thing as intentionally stepping on their foot.

      Reply ↓
    5. Storm in a teacup*

      I totally agree with this take.
      It could just be a run of stupidity and bad luck on Marie’s part and Liz is now being an ass.
      Or it could be part of a wider pattern.

      LW We need an update!

      Reply ↓
  31. Never the Twain*

    Something like this is bound to happen when you’re getting N x N gifts. Maybe more than once is reprehensible, but TBH at that point I’d have said ‘Sorry, I’m rubbish at this, to avoid risking any further offense I’ll drop out in future.’
    And just hope my sense of relief didn’t come across too clearly.

    Reply ↓
    1. Mutually supportive*

      And then when the “mistake” was swapped for the correct gift, **the correct gift** was ALSO NOT VEGAN!

      So that’s 3 in a row, even if the mixed up parcels hadn’t happened.

      Reply ↓
    2. Spooz*

      I know what you mean, but that would mean Marie should drop out of the whole gift exchange as otherwise she’d be getting something for everyone except Liz. And I think that would be a whole other fuss as clearly everyone puts a lot of effort into getting individual gifts and it’s a whole Thing in the office.

      I could see either Marie wanting to carry on with the gifting in general because she likes it, or wanting to carry on to not be a party pooper or be the only one who doesn’t do it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Oregon Girl*

        Marie could just get a gift card for Liz…. that would solve the problem. It wouldn’t be personalized, but it would avoid the issue. I’m baffled why she didn’t do it this year.

        Reply ↓
  32. Former Lab Rat*

    Can we have an update next year when Maria gives Liz a silk or wool scarf?

    If this is an office exchange where Liz is getting gifts from other staff members it would seem the others were able to figure how to buy vegan gifts. Maria is either clueless or careless. But maybe you go to name drawing and just have one person gift one other.

    I did wonder about Liz’s dog, a quick google search does look like you can buy vegan dog food so maybe that’s what Liz does. Hope Liz doesn’t get a cat – they are obligate carnivores.

    Reply ↓
    1. HiddenT*

      As a knitter I have to roll my eyes at vegans who won’t wear wool (and I know plenty of vegan knitters who do). You literally can’t mistreat your animals and get good quality wool.

      Reply ↓
      1. Former Lab Rat*

        I know. Sheep actually suffer if you don’t shear them because their coats get way too heavy and matted.

        Those apples we eat are the result of bees working to pollinate the trees – so in a way it’s an animal byproduct. (And some figs actually contain dead wasps from pollination act). But it’s where you draw the line and you get to follow your beliefs.

        I did find it amusing a Mormon student in our lab refused coffee or tea but thought Red Bull was just fine – in spite of the fact it contains caffeine too.

        Reply ↓
        1. allathian*

          That’s my vegan sister’s reasoning for eating honey, most plants humans use for food depend on pollinators.

          Reply ↓
      2. Caramel & Cheddar*

        It’s also a mistreatment of the animals to just let their wool grow and not shear it! So once shorn, you might as well do something with it.

        Reply ↓
        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          The argument I’ve seen is that this is only true because we’ve bred sheep to produce more wool, and the expense of their comfort, so it’s anti-animal farming in general. Wild sheep don’t need to be shorn.

          Reply ↓
          2. MaxPower*

            Right. The argument I see made the most often is that while it’s true that it’s cruel not to shear a sheep that needs it, buying wool and supporting the farming of sheep is problematic. It would be better to not breed the existing sheep and let the existing ones die out naturally and be done with sheep going forward (same with other captive animals). As long as people buy the wool, sheep will be bred, and that’s the problem.

            Reply ↓
            1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

              I will never see how forcing a breed into extinction could fall into the “moral high ground” category.

              Reply ↓
              1. Kay*

                When we deliberately created them to have such unnatural qualities that they can’t survive without our constant intervention though? I would argue we shouldn’t have done these things in the first place – same goes for the breeding of the many other animals suffering from defects we exploited for our own devices.

                Reply ↓
                1. HiddenT*

                  There are absolutely arguments to be made about factory farming and how harmful it is to animals and the environment, but humans have been farming and domesticating animals for millennia now (and domesticating plants, well before lab-altered plants started being made). Arguing that all domestication of livestock is bad is a very short-sighted and privileged view.

                  The real villain is the enormous factory farms that treat their animals horrendously in order to produce lots of low-quality products to sell. Capitalism is the enemy, not farmers.

          3. KateM*

            I once knitted something for a vegan (from acrylic) and later asked that if she would have considered using dog wool as acceptable, seeing as this would be a byproduct of petting and combing a dog. She answered that *she* would consider it acceptable, but there are vegans who would not. As I said, I had knitted from acrylic anyway, to be safe.

            Reply ↓
      3. Vegan*

        I would encourage you to watch the movie Dominion if you truly think that mass produced sheep are not maltreated.

        Reply ↓
    3. mango chiffon*

      I know some vegans who are against owning pets as well. Veganism is a complicated term and everyone has different understandings of what it means for them personally.

      Reply ↓
    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Removed a long off-topic derail about dog food. Please stick to advice for the letter-writer, not debates about veganism, dog food, or other things not related to the question. Thanks.

      Reply ↓
  33. HonorBox*

    I think Marie has a responsibility to be more thoughtful and educate herself better. That said, I don’t think this is bullying. Yes, it has become a pattern, but it sure doesn’t seem like there’s a negative intent behind it. Marie is willfully ignorant.

    Beyond Marie apologizing… and meaning it… it would be great for her to talk to someone else in the office to get some guidance for future gifts. “Hey LW, what are you getting Liz, or where did you find something for her?” That simple.

    Reply ↓
    1. Observer*

      Beyond Marie apologizing… and meaning it

      Yeah, that’s the thing. Marie doesn’t mean it. Or this last mess would not have happened.

      Reply ↓
  34. Dawn*

    If I were in Liz’s position, after the third time it would sure start to feel deliberate to me. Heaven knows we do run into people like that all the time, who think that, for some reason, it’s their job to push back against someone else’s dietary choices/requirements.

    Reply ↓
    2. juliebulie*

      I mean Marie has gotten it wrong 100% of the time. I dunno about bullying but it could be considered passive-aggressive. At best, she doesn’t care and can’t be bothered.

      Reply ↓
  35. StarTrek Nutcase*

    I think both are foolish: Marie for 3d error and Liz for just assuming ill intent (which surely OP would have noted other incidences). I could have easily been Marie – cause I wouldn’t invest even 10 mins in selecting coworkers’ gifts. After 1st error, I’d just opt out of any future gift exchanges at work with anyone. And I definitely insist the boss, Liz & I discuss her bullying accusations. (I’m not a bully, but will readily admit I detest social activities (ex: gifts) at work. I’m willing to take the hit by not “fitting in” though as a top performer that’s not happened in any way I care about.)

    Reply ↓
    1. CallMeNever*

      Wait, everyone is exchanging gifts every year and no one else has gotten Liz a non-vegan gift except Marie? A third time is hard to ignore. I don’t think I would have gone to my manager but I would be incredibly cold to Marie going forward.

      Reply ↓
    2. Silver Robin*

      Okay but then you would have stopped after one mistake and this situation would never have happened, because the accusation of bullying did not happen until after mistake 3. Marie is choosing to continue, which is her choice, and as a result has the responsibility to get it right (which nobody else in the office seems to struggle with!). Liz saying “bully” might be too much but you actually could not “have easily been Marie”.

      Reply ↓
  36. Out & About*

    As a vegan I was okay with not getting gifts in office when others got cookies or meat. When I did get them, my favorite gifts didn’t cost much like vegan coconut caramels (local store had it) or even Oreos!

    For Liz at a certain point how many times is too many times for her to be allowed to not be gracious? This isn’t a diet, it’s a lifestyle with a moral basis.

    Reply ↓
  37. SB*

    This is wild to me. I have friends that are vegan and vegetarian and a spectrum of in-between.

    And I wanted to knit one of them a hat as a present. And I said, “hey, I think you don’t wear wool. Is that right? Is there anything else I need to avoid?”

    She thanked me. I knit her a hat in acrylic fibers. She loves it. The end.

    It’s really easy to get someone a gift that doesn’t violate their belief system. You just have to ask politely about restrictions and then get them a gift that aligns with that.

    P.S. Most marshmallows have animal gelatin in them, so be careful of those too.

    Reply ↓
    1. Not on board*

      Yeah, or if you don’t trust yourself to get it right, go to a store/online site that is specifically vegan. Or get a gift certificate to a vegan restaurant/vegan site. It’s not that hard.

      Reply ↓
    2. Head Sheep Counter*

      The brain stutters at the idea of acrylic being better than wool… the vast amount of plastic in the universe is so damn negative for the universe.

      Reply ↓
    3. CityMouse*

      I have a cousin who is both vegan and has celiac disease. 1) I check everything. 2) I’ve talked to him about cross contamination issues, hidden gluten, and his dietary standards. You just ask.

      Reply ↓
  38. AndreaP*

    I don’t assume malice even at this point, but repeated bumbling can be equally insulting. At this point giving Liz a gift certificate to a store specializing in natural and whole grain foods could help smooth over an awkward situation.

    Reply ↓
    2. Falling Diphthong*

      Yeah, “well meaning but bumbling” can be exhausting for its targets to navigate.

      Like step one is to be well meaning, and step two is to notice any points where you failed in your goal despite being well meaning, and step three is for the plan you come up with to not repeat that mistake to actually succeed.

      Reply ↓
    3. AnonInCanada*

      Malice, no. Carelessness or thoughtlessness, definitely. If I were Liz, I would be pretty miffed about Marie as well.

      Reply ↓
  39. I just work here*

    Liz is being an ass, intentionally or not. I have some unusual food allergies and a coworker performatively attempts to accommodate them when we have shared-food events. She’ll call me at home to confirm ingredients. This would be lovely EXCEPT that every single time, she does something that renders the food an allergen to me — usually adding something for a little extra flair at the end. I got sick 2-3 times eating her allegedly-safe food before I wised up and just..don’t. I don’t even put it on my plate any more. Oddly, she still makes a big deal of having accommodated me, calling ahead, etc, even though I’ve said “nah, don’t worry about it. I’m bringing stuff I can eat” consistently for a year. I think she wants to think of herself as someone who is generous and accommodates people, but doesn’t want to actually follow through. Liz sounds like she might be giving gifts similarly – that it’s more about her than the recipient.

    Reply ↓
    1. Not on board*

      I don’t think Liz is being an ass at all. I think Marie is being deliberately obtuse at this point. The honey – an honest mistake. The leather collar – well, I’m on the fence as to whether or not it’s a mistake. But popcorn with cheese seasonings?

      Like others said, once is a mistake, twice is a coincidence, 3 times is enemy action. People who choose to be strict vegans are buying into a belief system which isn’t all that different from a Jewish or Muslim person having restrictions from eating pork.

      Reply ↓
  40. Not on board*

    Marie is, at minimum, a thoughtless jerk here. After the first 2 years, she should be buying vegan gifts from a vegan store/online store for Liz. How many times is Liz expected to be gracious? I am not vegan or vegetarian but I see most vegans as having a belief system that they adhere to, which is no different than Jewish Kosher observance, or a Muslim eating only Halal.

    OP, I would stay out of it but if Marie said something to me, I would recommend she buy Liz a replacement gift from a vegan vendor as an apology. I mean, cheese seasonings? Come on!

    Reply ↓
  41. Chicken isn't vegan?*

    I want to shake Marie because this could have so easily been avoided. Just get her a gift card to one of her favorite vegan places, or a vegan cookbook.

    However, I have a nut allergy, and you would be amazed at how often I’ve had to remind even the most well meaning people. Unless you have restrictions of your own it’s easy to forget that what’s familiar and comfortable to you isn’t the same for everyone else. So even though it can bother me, I personally have learned to let it go most of the time.

    I think your point that there may be other things in their relationship making this worse may be spot on. If Marie is ignorant or oblivious in other ways, even unintentionally, I would be over blunders like this too.

    Very curious for an update on this one!

    Reply ↓
  42. CommanderBanana*

    …….yeeeeeeeah while I generally come down on the side of “smile graciously and thank the giver” when given things I can’t use, this would be me like me getting something containing ham 3 years in a row (I’m kosher).

    Reply ↓
  43. Too many dogs*

    Maybe try a gift that absolutely does not involve food — an attractive mug, some fun pens, an empty picture frame (NOT LEATHER) for Marie to put a picture in, some cute (COTTON) socks, a blank journal/book (again, not leather), a fun paper weight……. I’m not vegan, but allergies and Celiac make me fear food gifts, no matter how well meaning the giver is.

    Reply ↓
  45. DisneyChannelThis*

    Buying 6 gifts for coworkers is ridiculous. The budget alone. I hope you have a way for employees to opt out of gift exchange.

    I think Marie is trying her best but failing. At the holidays when you have to try and get a gift your in laws will like, for your spouse, for your kids etc I don’t blame Marie for not spending that much effort to figure out what Liz will like.

    One thing you could do LW, is to claim you really love the popcorn and offer to trade Liz for something she could actually enjoy (fruit basket?). Then Liz gets a decent gift and can stop obessing that Marie doesn’t understand Vegans. But Liz should have 5 decent gifts already since you gift to everyone so maybe that wouldn’t satisfy her….

    Reply ↓
  46. Jaid*

    I think Marie needs to get a make-up gift for Liz to show willing. After three strikes, it’s gotta be researched very well.

    I have to wonder how well Marie does her job, given that she doesn’t seem to be able to research worth a darn.

    Reply ↓
  47. Bonkers*

    “I understand that’s probably a bit much, but it works for us.”

    Does it work for you? Seems like it’s creating more drama than camaraderie. But I admit that I’m not a gift-person – it’s just not my thing, though I understand that it’s important to others.

    Reply ↓
    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Sounds like one of those office traditions that does in fact work really well, until circumstances change and it doesn’t any more.

      Reply ↓
    2. The Other Virginia*

      THIS. Exactly. If you are having to write to an advice forum for management, then it’s clearly not working. And it’s clearly taking up too much time and energy and resulting in all kinds of “feelings” that are at least potentially harmful to the organization. The only logical thing to do in this case is to pull the plug on the gift exchange. I hate to say “this is why we can’t have nice things” but that phrase definitely comes to mind. And like you, not everyone is into gifts or giving or are particularly good at giving or receiving them. This isn’t necessarily a character indictment. There are plenty of wonderful people and employees who might not be that great at gift giving. And to expect people who don’t get into this kind of thing to participate in a way that is satisfactory to those who do is just setting everyone up for disappointment and hurt feelings which is SO not worth it, IMO. Besides that, meaningful gift giving, to me, is personal thing. I don’t think that introducing that level of personal into a work situation is a good idea. At least not on an organized rather than organic level.

      Reply ↓
  48. The Office Vegan*

    I’m the vegan in my office, and my guess from this reading is that the gift was just the final straw of Marie not remembering/respecting Liz. In my experience, food/clothes/etc come up constantly, and I have a few coworkers (who I have worked with for years!) that still ask me if I eat fish, or if I want a piece of their cheesecake, or whatever, and then once reminded I get the, “oh right, I forgot” which, to be honest, stings sometimes… my being vegan is a fundamental part of me, so it feels like they don’t know me at all when those things happen. But my office has 60 employees so I give grace. For my birthday, my coworker searched my Instagram to find a vegan bakery I followed there, and ordered my cake from the vegan bakery. It meant the world to me. So it leads me to wonder if Marie has a habit of forgetting Liz is vegan on more regular basis than the holidays, and Liz is hurt by it, and like, this was the final straw.

    Reply ↓
    1. spiriferida*

      Agree. Part of the situation that I think factors in is that Marie and Liz don’t just interact during the holiday gift exchange. They’re coworkers in a very small office, and presumably interact at least semi-regularly – and they’ve been working together for at least three years now! After getting it wrong Marie can have plenty of opportunities to learn more naturally about the kinds of vegan products Liz likes during the year, and has the resources to put in with other coworkers who might remember specific products (and are presumably getting vegan gifts!)

      Especially if there’s a disparity in the gift-giving quality, where Marie is able to give other coworkers gifts they genuinely like, versus trying and failing to get Liz a gift that meets basic standards of use. The truth is that Marie’s pattern of behavior is showing less care and value for one particular coworker.

      Reply ↓
    2. Ari*

      I’m just curious why it stings that coworkers don’t remember everything you can and can’t eat? I’m not trying to be a jerk…I have vegan friends outside of work and I have to stop and think for a long time about what I should get or make them. It’s not that I don’t care. These are dear friends and I care very much about accommodating them. But I don’t have to plan every meal and every purchase in my own home around being vegan, so it’s not at the forefront of my mind.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Office Vegan*

        “I’m just curious why it stings that coworkers don’t remember everything you can and can’t eat?” because it’s not about what I can and can’t eat – it’s about my life. It’s like gifting a bottle of wine to someone who is open and proud about being years sober as an alcoholic, and saying, “why does it bother you that I don’t remember everything you can and can’t drink?” or gifting a kosher person a pork sausage. It’s rude and hurtful coming from someone who has known you for years, that you don’t care enough about them to give a gift that they can enjoy or accept. I get non-vegan gifts all the time from clients (and alcohol, which I also don’t drink), and I just give it away and it’s fine and it doesn’t hurt my feelings, because it’s just a token. But having someone you’ve known for YEARS not care enough to give you something you can have absolutely stings.

        Reply ↓
        2. Ari*

          I guess I’m different with my coworkers. I’ve worked with many of them for over a decade, but I don’t necessarily know who is what religion or who has what dietary restriction or even how many kids everyone has. And I wouldn’t expect any of them to know those details about me.

          Reply ↓
          1. Making yourself visible in the dark (Bike Walk Barb)*

            This points out why food and beverage gifts aren’t a great idea if you don’t have that level of familiarity.

            Reply ↓
      2. Jennifer Strange*

        If you gave one of your vegan friends a gift and they said, “Oh, I’m vegan, I can’t have this” wouldn’t you then remember that the next year when you wanted to give them a gift and at least do a bit of research/ask them to determine what gift they could have?

        Reply ↓
        1. Dinwar*

          It depends.

          If it’s a “friend” that I see occasionally at one of the kids’ activities, probably not. I’d correct the issue at the time, sure, but frankly a year from now I won’t remember–nor would I expect them to remember anything about me. Coworkers fit into this category, especially if it’s a “Keep work and personal separate” office. Tell me your vegan once a year and I’m probably not going to remember. It’s not intentional, it’s just that we’re all busy.

          Reply ↓
          1. Jennifer Strange*

            Except that Marie clearly knows that Liz is vegan because she asked someone else what to get her (and still got her something that wasn’t vegan). Also, I am busy, but I’m still able to remember that one co-worker is Jewish and another is deathly allergic to tree nuts. If you CAN’T remember that then maybe you shouldn’t make a big show of giving out gifts each year (or should just stick to gift cards).

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          2. Blue Pen*

            Sorry, but I find it odd that you wouldn’t remember someone’s vegan each year (especially if veganism is more of a rarity in your network). It’s not “my co-worker only eats X on Wednesdays at 2:30 pm, but only the 6th, 12th, 18th, and 24th Wednesdays of the calendar year except for if that date falls on the summer or winter solstice.” It’s: “this person’s vegan, got it.”

            Reply ↓
      3. ChubCucumber*

        But you DO stop and think, because they’re your friends and you care. That’s the difference, IME.

        Marie is clearly not taking care to make sure she’s getting something Liz will like. They’ve worked together in a small office for three years. Is it really so difficult for Marie to identify a gift that Liz will actually like?

        (FWIW, I think Marie had to intentionally choose that leather collar, which would mean she’s doing the opposite of caring. The vast majority of collars available are not leather and the top google search results for “personalized dog collar” are all nylon collars.)

        Reply ↓
  49. Guest*

    Pescatarian here: does Marie not know how to go online and do research? Not saying Liz’s behavior is great, but yeeeeeeeeesh.

    Reply ↓
  50. Account*

    I totally agree with Alison that their relationship seems rocky. I am thinking about my co-workers, whom I am very close and warm with. In this circumstance, if I were Liz, after about year TWO, I would go to Marie laughing and say “Oh dear, girl, I know you are trying your best. Thank you. But let’s just agree that the two of us are not giving each other gifts anymore, okay??” and she would apologize and agree. If they aren’t having that sort of friendly conversation, it does seem like there’s a problem (or at least, they aren’t close enough to be giving each other gifts).

    Reply ↓
  51. CommanderBanana*

    Has Marie never heard of this thing called the internet? Finding a vegan gift is as easy as opening Google and typing “vegan gift” or “vegan snacks.” I sent vegan cookies to the vegan part of my family for Hanukkah and it took about 75 seconds to find them.

    Reply ↓
  52. Forever Vegetarian*

    As someone who was raised vegetarian in a time when it definitely was *not* popular, I totally understand where Liz is coming from. Yes, some things are ignorance, but there’s so much out there for vegans and vegetarians now that it’s hard to use ignorance as an excuse or a justification. I grew up being bullied over my vegetarianism—the endless questions of “so you can’t eat [insert obvious types of meat]?” but also someone who fed me a chicken-flavored cracker knowing I was a vegetarian because they thought it’d be funny, and not a single person stopped me from eating it, partaking in the “joke”—so I am sensitive to these things. I went way opposite and just never expected anyone to cater to my needs and tried to plan meals and the like when necessary, and I had to just get over some things, but it wasn’t as common when I was a kid. People *can* go overboard with their expectations around special treatment or being catered to, but I don’t think Liz is in that territory. Veganism/vegetarianism is so common today and there’s so much out there for us, there’s just no reason you can’t put extra thought into it to begin with, but especially after two prior mistakes.

    Reply ↓
  53. EStein*

    I have a vegan family member, and I only buy her food gifts that say “vegan” on them in big letters. I am admittedly not well-versed in what is vegan (some wines? Which Burts Bees products?), so this is a no-fail solution for me

    Reply ↓
    1. MaxPower*

      Yes, this is the way. There are so many products explicitly labeled vegan that it is actually super easy to find appropriate gifts (especially food/beauty items) for vegans. Companies typically use the strictest interpretations of veganism when they put that label on, so it’s a really easy way to ensure you’re not accidentally gifting someone something that’s not appropriate for them.

      Reply ↓
    2. Jennifer Strange*

      This. And I get that sometimes things get labeled as being vegan when they actually aren’t, but at least if it has “vegan” on it it shows that the gift giver put in effort (even if the company selling the product didn’t).

      Reply ↓
  54. One Duck In A Row*

    I’d like to point out that there is a lot of second- and third-hand information in this letter, and a lot of assumptions about the feelings of Liz. We all know how words can get misinterpreted, exaggerated, etc., in office politics like this. So the LW is telling us that Marie told them that their boss told them that Liz told them that she is feeling bullied? And we’re having in-depth conversations here about whether Liz is being dramatic, entitled, etc, based on that? I know we are supposed to take LWs at their word, but this literally isn’t their word. I’m not saying this is made up, but AM saying that there is a lot of opportunity for accidental games of telephone influencing all of this. I don’t think trying to pick apart Marie or Liz’s reaction to what is happening with any level of nuance is worth it, because we literally don’t have enough first hand information of actual feelings from the actual people involved to interpret anything with nuance.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ohio Duck*

      Yeah this letter is compelling because there’s truly no way to know for sure what’s going on.

      And it’s so weird too! I kind of get why people are reading into it so obsessively. What is UP with Marie? Our brains long to make sense of the nonsensical.

      Reply ↓
  55. kiki*

    I fear Marie is not firing all cylinders. Is she… able to do her job effectively?

    I have a feeling that after talking with her coworker, Marie googled, “Is popcorn vegan?” When she saw that the google ai answer was “yes,” she left it there without reading the third sentence in that blurb that says “popcorn is no longer vegan when animal ingredients, such as butter or cheese, are added.”

    Not saying that at all to excuse Marie! While I can see how this could happen with no malice intended, I just worry how Marie is functioning as a working adult in the world if that’s the case. It’s also not something that’s easy to give actionable advice for either— how do you tell an adult they need to be more thoughtful in an actionable way?

    Reply ↓
  56. HB*

    I need to give a big ditto to Marie exhibiting some pretty *intentional* thoughtless behavior. And I do truly mean *thoughtless* not any sort of ill intent.

    A good friend of mine is vegan and her reasons are based in animal rights. I learned about the honey thing from her and my vague recollection is that it’s based on a moral question of exploitation of animals (or in this case bees). I believe she falls on the side of it *can* be okay, but I’m not entirely sure.

    However… if I knew someone was vegan and didn’t eat honey, I would DEFINITELY know that they wouldn’t be okay with leather! (As opposed to another set of friends of mine who are primarily concerned with environmental issues and so while they are *mostly* vegetarian/vegan they will eat meat from farms that use the whole animal – which means they also are okay with leather from certain sources).

    And so Marie’s real mistake is not *not knowing* but rather *not caring enough to find out*. And weirdly I think gifts 2 and 3 are kindof made worse by the fact that there’s a good deal of effort involved in the gifts… I mean, a personalized dog collar is very sweet! And so the fact that she picked a leather collar makes it feel… almost intentionally insulting which is why I think Liz is feeling bullied.

    Then move on to year #3 where Marie picks out a *different* gift for Liz and the gift still isn’t vegan and yes, you have a real pattern of Marie being *willfully* oblivious.

    If Marie wants to make it up to Liz, I’d tell her to actually try to learn about veganism. Personally I’d maybe start with making some vegan desserts or snacks to bring to the office and apologize to Liz from the perspective of “I’ve hurt you because I didn’t try hard enough to understand veganism, but I want to do better.”

    I’ll note that since things with Liz have already soured a bit, Marie is going to have to be extra careful with how she approaches things generally. The friend I mentioned above will often embrace the role of “Vegan ambassador”, but she grew up in California so I don’t think she had too difficult a time with it. I’ve had other friends who were *just* vegetarian – but in the rural south – who were really frustrated/jaded from being teased, etc and didn’t really want to be peppered with questions about their reasons.

    Reply ↓
    1. Observer*

      you have a real pattern of Marie being *willfully* oblivious

      Yes, I think that this is very likely. And it’s exhausting to deal with on a good day.

      Reply ↓
  57. CzechMate*

    Yeah, Marie is not really getting that the point of a gift is……..to do something thoughtful for another person. Not just to “do no harm,” but to actively demonstrate that you’ve thought about this person and what they might like. It also sounds like Liz only brought up feeling bullied by Marie *because she was specifically asked*–aside from being a little cold, she’s not complaining loudly about it. Definitely should be working harder to make amends on this one.

    (Also pointing out that if you have stopped eating animal products, you’ll get sick if you eat them again. She can’t, say, just eat the cheese this one time, even if she wanted to.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Lizzay*

      Agree that the point of a gift is to do something thoughtful, but would argue that trying to buy equalish gifts in an office setting goes directly against that. I vote abolish the gift exchange!!

      Reply ↓
  58. AnonPi*

    Having been in multiple similar situations as a gift receiver from a generally well intentioned gift giver, I find Maria thoughtless but not aggressive or bullying as many seem to think. A lot of people just don’t think or realize what they think is a great gift, is problematic. And could they look it up sure, but lets face it most people don’t. They rely on pop culture, friends, family for their info, that’s just how people are – even family and friends aren’t always thoughtful, much less a coworker.

    I’ve gotten to where I just appreciate the sentiment and then offer the gift to others (or donate it). Usually the gift giver has been apologetic/mortified if they realize I can’t use it, and offered to get something else and I tell them not to worry about it. I’m just not that worried about a gift especially from work, and generally not enough to get worked up over. I would if it was intentionally hurtful (in which case I wouldn’t call it a gift), but I’ve yet to come across that and I just don’t see that in this situation.

    Frankly I’d just as soon as not exchange gifts whatsoever, it’s so much easier. So glad my current group (for the most part) doesn’t do that.

    Reply ↓
  59. Anon today*

    Off topic, but my name is Marie and my best friend’s name is Liz, so this conversation is cracking me up.

    (Neither of us are vegan, but our other close friend is a honey-eating vegan and we know how to shop for vegans.)

    Reply ↓
  60. 45 / 47*

    Liz sounds overly precious. I’ve lost count of how many times in my life I’ve received gifts from family/friends/coworkers that I couldn’t use/didn’t like/seriously wondered what the heck were they thinking? What did I do? I smiled, thanked the giver, then quietly donated/regifted/trashed the item. Because I’m an adult and that’s what adults do. I would never think of embarrassing the giver or giving them the cold shoulder over something so trivial.

    Reply ↓
    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Because I’m an adult and that’s what adults do.

      100% this. If you get a gift you can’t/won’t use, the grown-up thing to do here is to accept it graciously, remember that it’s the gesture that’s important, rather than the actual gift, and get on with your life.

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        Liz has done that. Twice. Three times, if you accept a quiet but not enthusiastic response as remaining gracious. At a certain point, it’s fair to ask why the burden needs to be on her to accommodate and not on Marie to just freaking ask “is this okay?” before she buys anything. At the very least, I don’t think Marie gets to be hurt and surprised she’s not Liz’s favorite person when she keeps making the same avoidable mistakes and falling back on good intentions as an excuse instead of fixing the problem once and for all, and I do question whether that tendency is limited to gift-giving or bleeds over into other aspects of her work.

        Reply ↓
        1. Peanut Hamper*

          No, Liz is not accepting this graciously. She is in the moment, but then she’s being cold and complaining of bullying.

          If you get a gift you don’t like or can’t use, you accept it graciously and get on with your life. You don’t go on harping about it afterward or treating the person who gave it to you badly. Liz needs to grow up.

          Reply ↓
          1. Jennifer Strange*

            Per the LW Liz accepted it graciously the first two times. That is what MsM was referring to. It was only the third time that Liz pushed back.

            If you get a gift you don’t like or can’t use, you accept it graciously and get on with your life.

            If someone, on three occasions, gives you a gift that you not only don’t like or can’t use but literally goes against your beliefs, you don’t have to be gracious about it. Would you say the same if Liz were Jewish and being given gifts of a Christian nature?

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            1. Observer*

              . Would you say the same if Liz were Jewish and being given gifts of a Christian nature?

              I can’t speak for @Peanut Hamper. But I do know that plenty of people most definitely *would* expect that. Which is why I, someone who has absolutely zero interest in veganism, still side with Liz. Because I know how often people in a minority position are expected to see “good will” in someone showing that they consider the recipient’s moral / ethical / religious code irrelevant or worth a maximum of 60 seconds of *performance* with no real effort.

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      2. Spooz*

        “it’s the gesture that’s important”

        The gesture that Marie has made is “I don’t care enough about your core philosophical beliefs to take five minutes to get this right by buying food labelled vegan or even something that isn’t food at all like a plant or, heck, a vegan cookbook.”

        I don’t think we should string Marie up, but it IS the thought/gesture people are reacting to here.

        Reply ↓
    2. Ms. Murchison*

      Sounds like you’re pretty flush with cash and time, and don’t want for anything. And aren’t particularly concerned with the amount of waste you’re creating on this planet. A lot of adults care deeply about those things.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bonkers*

        Regifting and donating aren’t increasing waste. Besides, if we really cared about decreasing waste, maybe we could all just do away with adults giving gifts to adults. If we all just bought the things we need, the holiday season would be a heck of a lot cheaper and a heck of a lot less consumeristic.

        Reply ↓
      2. TechWorker*

        This is a bit extreme. Regardless of whether one is ‘flush with cash and time’, it’s unlikely a Christmas gift from a *coworker* will be something you deeply want and need. Regifting and donating also doesn’t necessarily cause any more waste than keeping it yourself…

        Reply ↓
    3. Marzipan Shepherdess*

      I too have received gifts that I can’t use, and I too have smiled, thanked the giver and donated the gift where I KNOW that my “regifting” won’t be discovered by the giver. Problem solved – IF the problem is REALLY just an unwanted gift.

      But from Liz’s point of view, Marie has given her unusable gifts THREE TIMES IN A ROW! Many vegans and vegetarians have encountered people who are quite critical of their chosen lifestyle; ignorant questions about how they get enough protein, teasing about “You don’t know what you’re missing!” as the speaker munches a steak, and even deliberately slipping meat products into their food are all unfortunately common. Liz may well have chalked up Marie to being one more of those people who are passive-aggressively critical of veganism – and Marie’s making the same blunder three times in a row isn’t helping her own case one little bit!

      Reply ↓
    4. Not on board*

      This is supposing that it’s random gifts from random people. This is an inappropriate gift 3 years in a row. The first time is totally excusable with the honey. After that though….

      If someone gave you clothing 3 sizes too small every year or gave you alchohol when you’re a muslim, or ham if you’re Kosher, would you just excuse it? It’s not difficult to find vegan gifts and presumably every other person has been able to buy Liz appropriate gifts.

      Either Marie is completely thoughtless and doesn’t give a f*ck about Liz or she’s doing it deliberately.

      Reply ↓
        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Her reaction to three gifts that go against her ethical beliefs? She accepted two graciously, and only balked at the third time receiving such a gift. That’s the opposite of overly precious.

          Reply ↓
  61. Peanut Hamper*

    I think it’s a bit much for Liz to call this bullying. Does she have this level of outrage at other slights?

    And I think it’s ridiculous to say “Marie has made this mistake three times in a row”. It’s Christmas. These events are a year apart, so it’s hard to see this as a pattern of anything. I mean, if these incidents were a week apart or a month apart? Sure. But a year? C’mon! I can’t even remember what I gave anybody for Christmas in 2023.

    If I were Marie, I would just opt of the gift exchange next year. “No, thanks, we’re only spending money on gifts for family this year, so please don’t get me anything.”

    I am so happy to not participate in work gift exchanges.

    Reply ↓
    1. Observer*

      It’s Christmas.

      And that makes people lose their memory and mind? What is the relevance here?

      These events are a year apart, so it’s hard to see this as a pattern of anything.

      Even children as young as 6-7 years old can remember 3 years back, and what happened “last X” a year ago, and “X the year before”. Even things a lot more abstract and less memorable.

      For functional adults, annual events certainly are often a pattern. So the idea that because these three events are a year apart it’s not a pattern requires ignoring reality.

      If I were Marie, I would just opt of the gift exchange next year.

      That would be an *excellent* idea. And to be honest, while I don’t think that there is much the LW can do, suggesting that the whole exchange be abolished would probably be a good idea.

      Reply ↓
  62. here to help*

    To give a vegan products of animal suffering is absolutely bullying. But I don’t think it’s actionable in our culture, because the large majority don’t even associate honey/leather/meat/cheese with animal suffering. Liz is not being unreasonable and is completely justified to feel what she does, but probably needs to just “suck it up” and turn the other cheek because Marie has demonstrated that she can’t be trusted to give good gifts. Not a big deal, I’m sure her employment contract doesn’t entitle her to thoughtful gifts from coworkers.

    If Marie cares she should keep trying to be more thoughtful in the future.

    Reply ↓
    1. But not the Hippopotamus*

      Interesting take. Most of the vegans I know are vegan not because of animal suffering but for environmental reasons. So to me, it reads more as insensitive and off balance than as bullying. I mention this only because I find it fascinating how our exposure to topics can impact how we read a situation. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

      Reply ↓
  63. But not the Hippopotamus*

    Today I learned that vegan can include non-food items. I have vegan coworkers, kids with special diet needs, a vegetarian kid, and would never in my wildest dreams have thought about the vegan status of a non-food item. And if I had dine the dog collar thing, I would have started worrying about plastic and basically anything other than maybe wood or synthetic products and avoided all food. I feel for both Liz and Marie in this case and agree that while Marie could have done better, if this isnt something Liz talks about in DDTAIL, then short of quizzing her (which could be weird) she seems to be trying and just failing miserably.

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    2. Blue Pen*

      I would also add products that are tested on animals. I’m not vegan, but I make it a point to only purchase products—namely, skincare and beauty products—that are cruelty-free and do not test on animals. I try to do the same with vitamins/supplements and while I can’t always do that with the medications I need to take, I do the best I can.

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    3. PinkSoda*

      I really like your read on the situation. I’m surprised at how many commenters are assuming ill intent on Marie’s part. I can understand why it’s upsetting to Liz, but I have a food allergy and I have never, ever assumed it’s intentional or bullying when I’m gifted something I can’t eat – even when it happens multiple times. We’re all adults and we all have lots of things to remember and think about. Marie could certainly do better, but it’s so odd to me to assume it’s intentional, especially when another coworker specifically indicated that Marie asked her about vegan snacks. Unless Marie has some pattern of passive-aggressive bullying or rudeness, it seems like a leap to say she’s being mean.

      Reply ↓
      1. But not the Hippopotamus*

        I keep strictly kosher and the number of times people have legit tried is remarkable insofar as I have now started explaining that, no vegan doesn’t work and unless they have a fully kosher kitchen, nothing they cook will work, but thanks for thinking of me. It’s not malicious when someone offers me, for the 900th time, some home baked goodies. I almost feell bad when I have to say, kosher ingredients don’t mean a kosher result. Some of this is just hard for people who aren’t in a given lifestyle. When I started keeping kosher, i had issues with dairy because I mentally kept substituting “vegetarian” in my head… and it was for ME!

        please ignore typos, I have big thumbs

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    4. Expectations*

      same. For the vegans I know it’s strictly dietary, and it’s no meat/eggs/dairy. It never would have occurred to me that someone who avoids leather or wool or any other animal non-food products would expect me to include that as part of their vegan status. I know people who don’t use leather and they state that as a separate thing.

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    5. California Dreamin'*

      I was today years old when I learned that honey is not vegan. I know several vegans, and it just literally never occurred to me to think about honey. I’m now realizing I recently served honey (in the salad dressing) to an unwitting vegan friend at a dinner party where I was very intentional about providing a vegan-friendly meal.

      Reply ↓
      1. allathian*

        Some vegans are more strict about this than others. My sister uses honey because without pollinators we’d starve, or at least our diet would be a lot less varied. No more coffee or chocolate! Or about 70% of the plants we depend on for food.

        You could ask your vegan friend if she uses honey or not.

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  64. Someone Else's Boss*

    I think the gifting culture at this company is the problem. If you’re getting to the point where working relationships are affected by holiday gift giving, there is too much emphasis on the meaning behind these gifts. I have never complained to a coworker about a gift they gave me, even if I have no use for it. Yet, I don’t think Liz is wrong to feel slighted. I think the difference is that I’ve never felt obligated to gift anything, so I have not felt “owed” something in return. If Liz is forced to buy gifts for Marie, then she isn’t out of line to expect a thoughtful gift back.

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  66. PinkSoda*

    So… I actually disagree with majority opinion. I have a food allergy to gluten (I am not anaphylactic but I get sick enough that I’d still end up in the ER). I am not shy about it; everyone knows it. I receive gifts almost every year that contain gluten. 95% of the time, it’s an item that *weirdly* contains gluten, like a chocolate bar that has wheat for some reason. The other 5% is someone who bought cookies for the whole office and just didn’t get a gluten-free one. I honestly don’t think it’s fair to expect other people to understand an allergy or diet that they don’t follow. Sure, you can usually figure it out with a quick Google search, and I’m extremely grateful when someone goes the extra mile like that. I understand this is an unpopular opinion, but I find some of these comments about Marie really aggressive.

    Reply ↓
    1. Second*

      Someone else (me!) agrees with your disagreement with the majority opinion. Some of the comments about Marie are aggressive and entering facts that are not in evidence. But more importantly, I agree with you that they’re expecting too much of people to understand a diet that they don’t follow AND it is a much better way to live to shrug off other people’s bad gifts and move on.

      Reply ↓
  67. Ms. Murchison*

    Came here to say the same. I bet Marie has made derisive comments about Liz’s veganism in the past, because it was clear by the second present that she hadn’t even bothered to google veganism to make sure she got it right. (Leather??? Seriously? I’m not vegan or vegetarian but I know that’s a bad move.) Yeah, LW should ignore the accidental swap and focus on the cheese in the gift. Marie is hanging out a neon sign that she doesn’t respect Liz and thinks she can get away with it by saying “but I meant well!” And the LW is demonstrating their disrespect for veganism (and by extension Liz) by accepting Marie’s excuses, trying to cover her tuchus after the fact, instead of calling Marie out on her bad behavior.

    LW, this is the third year that (presumably) Liz shelled out money for a gift that Marie could use, and Marie gave Liz something that that Liz obviously could not use. How do you think Liz feels about that exchange process? The internet exists; Marie could have gotten it right but chose not to. Asking a random coworker what might be a vegan snack isn’t the same as doing a simple google search to learn what veganism actually means, and after the honey Marie should have realized that she didn’t know what veganism means. Like AAM indicated, Marie has to actually accept and recognize that she F’d up if she wants to make this right, otherwise whatever she does it going to make it worse. And since she’s appealing to coworkers for support in her “but I didn’t mean it!” story, she’s already heading down the making-it-worse path. Because in this instance, “but I didn’t mean it!” really means “but this isn’t important, this doesn’t matter enough for me to get it right, I am in the right for not caring about something unimportant, just saying I meant well should be enough.” And if Marie did care, because she should have jumped to getting replacement presents the second and third time, instead of just offering to do so and accepting Liz’s public downplaying of her Otherness by saying it was fine.

    Reply ↓
    3. But not the Hippopotamus*

      Interesting, I had never even considered non food items related to veganism. I thought of it (until today) as a dietary thing. it wouldn’t have occurred to me to Google a non-food item unless it had somehow come up in conversation. I think this speaks to people having different levels of exposure to these things. The vegans I know eat that way for health reasons primarily, so it never came up I guess.

      Reply ↓
    4. allathian*

      This comment’s so good it deserves to stand out as a top level comment.

      Presumably the gift exchange is meant to promote camaraderie but currently it isn’t doing that.

      I hope Liz finds another job where she won’t be constantly othered for being vegan. I don’t believe Marie and the LW limit their dismissive attitudes to the gift exchange.

      The only thing that might help would be for Marie to sincerely apologize for getting it wrong 3 times in a row, preferably with a gift card so that Liz can get something she’ll actually use. Then Liz should accept the apology gracefully but without implying that Marie’s actions were okay, and stop giving Marie the cold shoulder. The LW also needs to stop siding with Marie, at the very least they should tell Liz they understand why she felt slighted by Marie.

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  68. Notasandwich*

    When talking about patterns my question is – what did Liz get everyone? That’s a good guide to what she can receive as well. What did other people get Liz? Also a good guide. Since the issue is only Marie, 4 other people for 3 years, so 12 gifts were acceptable. Also, when in doubt, gift cards.

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  69. Cosmo*

    I can see this being an honest mistake. But I’ve worked with enough folks who thought vegetarians ate fish and that eggs were dairy despite being corrected multiple times to know that some people just don’t get it no matter how much you explain.

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    1. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      “But I’ve worked with enough folks who thought vegetarians ate fish”

      Maybe that’s because they’ve heard people describe themselves as vegetarians who eat fish. I’ve heard plenty of people claim to be vegetarians but admit to eating fish. I guess they don’t think that fish are animals. The next time that happens, I’m going to say, “Oh, you’re a vegetarian who eats fish? Well, I’m a vegetarian who eats cows.”

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    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Marie was being an ass for getting someone a gift three times in a row that flies in the face of their beliefs. If this were someone giving a Jewish person a Christian-themed gift three times or giving someone with a peanut allergy a peanut-based gift three times surely you would think the gift giver was, at the very least, being inconsiderate in how they approach gift-giving?

      Also, everyone here is giving optional gifts. It sounds like all of the other employees are able to give Liz things that are appropriate for her, so it’s odd that Marie is the only one messing up each and every year.

      Reply ↓
  72. Crencestre*

    Gift cards – the answer to all “I don’t what to give this person!” dilemmas. Who DOESN’T like to have some extra spending money, after all!

    Safest bet when giving gift cards to someone you don’t know very, very well is to give a nonspecific, accepted-everywhere card like a Visa. You don’t want to give someone a “white elephant” card for a store that sells nothing that the card recipient would ever want to buy! (And don’t think of gift cards as “cold”, either; I’ve received gift cards, have spent them on long-desired-but-out-of-reach items and have thought of the givers every time I’ve used what their gift cards allowed me to buy at last!)

    Last note: Unless you vet every. single. ingredient. very carefully, don’t give food items to vegans! Come to think of it, food gifts are ALWAYS tricky; the recipient may have an allergy that you know nothing about (many of us do NOT want to dwell on our medical limitations when chatting with colleagues, after all!) but which precludes eating or drinking their present. Stick to what you KNOW is safe!

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    1. mango chiffon*

      See the thing is, if next year Marie gives everyone else a gift basket and then Liz gets just a gift card, I do think it will be seen as cold or exclusionary. I think it would make Liz seem like an afterthought.

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        1. Resentful Oreos*

          I agree. Gift cards for everyone. (And I can’t tell you how much I hate the “gift cards are sooo impersonal boo hoo” line some people break out. For your spouse, yes. For a coworker? That’s where impersonal gifts are *expected.*)

          Reply ↓
          1. Colette*

            In this case, gift cards wouldn’t solve the problem. It’s very possible to buy gift cards to steakhouses and other places vegans will have a hard time eating.

            Reply ↓
            1. Resentful Oreos*

              Knowingly buying a steak house gift card for a vegan is a jerk move, BUT, on the whole, gift cards are more flexible. Cards like those Visa gift cards, grocery store, variety stores like Target and Walmart, pet stores if the person has pets, those are all very useful across a variety of diets and lifestyles.

              While I wouldn’t give a steak house card to a vegan coworker (or any coworker, just because I prefer more useful cards) I think coworker gift exchanges are much more impersonal than spouse, immediate family or close friend gifting.

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          2. PurpleCattledog*

            I hate gift cards as a gift. I really do. Unless it’s for a large amount of money (ridiculous in a work gift exchange) it’s likely to cost me money to use. Unless you’ve done your research and gotten from a store I shop at I’m unlikely to want to buy anything from wherever the gift is for.

            Then you add the places I have ethical objections to supporting and you’re further restricted.

            If I receive a gift card in a work gift exchange or something I’d say thank you. Because I say thank you when receiving gifts. But if your objective was for me to feel valued by the gift I probably wouldn’t. If I didn’t know you well I’d likely appreciate the generic thought of gift giving.

            You genuinely can’t please everyone. I’m actually really easy to buy gifts for if you know me and want to put even minimal effort into getting something for me as an individual. But when you’re buying for a bunch of colleagues and trying to get equivalent gifts that’s really hard!

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      2. Aggretsuko*

        This whole thing has become such drama that I think OP needs to ban gift giving next year. Because even if Liz needs something very specialized from everyone else, it’s just…ugh, what a mess.

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        1. blue rose*

          I don’t think OP is in a position to ban the practice. That was kinda the point of Alison’s advice—OP is a bystander, so wisest choice is to stay out of it.

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    2. Oregon Girl*

      This is the best solution for Marie. It is a bit impersonal, but way better than what actually happened.

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  73. The Other Virginia*

    To preface my perspective, I am not a vegan but I’m a vegetarian and have been for most of my life. I eat honey and eggs and limited dairy (limiting dairy is more related to intolerance) and I drink wine. I don’t own leather or fur either though or anything that requires an animal to be harmed. I have mostly gotten used to people not understanding, misunderstanding or not even trying to understand my personal restrictions and choices. Sure, I get annoyed sometimes when people try to insist for example that a soup with a chicken broth base, isn’t vegetarian. Or that green beans cooked in bacon grease is fine. (I live in the the south, it’s a thing) But I don’t dwell on it.But that’s just me. I have plenty of other things to get upset about. I can’t say whether any of this is intentional on Marie’s part, even if it’s subconsciusly so, or if maybe Liz is being too sensitive or even what the nature of their relationship is that may be playing into this. Having said all of this though…I believe that this is why this kind of gift exchange in an office setting is fraught with so many unnecessary chances for hurt feelings, unfairness, etc. The OP acknowledges that it’s a little much but that “it works for them.” Not to point out the obvious but it really doesn’t seem to be working that great if she is having to write in to a management forum for advice. Something with the intention of creating camraderie and bonding with co-workers and most of all, to have fun, is causing all kinds of negative drama that is extending way beyond the actual gift exchange. Maybe it’s time to pull the plug on this tradition or find a way to do it in a way that eliminates any chance of hurt feelings from anyone. Though honestly, I don’t even know if that’s possible and that’s why we eliminated our office “white elephant” exchange a few years ago. And just another thought…it’s just a fact that some people are not good gift givers. This might relate to a character flaw but it doesn’t necessarily have to. There are some people for which gifts aren’t one of their “love languages” and it makes it hard for them to give in a way that is thoughtful or intentional. Which is another reason why office gift exchanges, at least organized as opposed to organic ones, might not be a great idea.

    Reply ↓
    1. allathian*

      I find gift giving very stressful and receiving is okay at best. The joy of receiving a gift, no matter how perfect for me, will never match the anxiety of trying to find the perfect gift for someone who loves gifts and is great at finding just the right ones.

      I’m so glad we stopped giving gifts among adults in my family. I exchange gifts with a few friends, but that’s mostly consumables like chocolate and coffee that all of my friends like.

      At work I’ve only participated in white elephant exchanges, but they’re different because you don’t know who ends up with your gift.

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  74. Head Sheep Counter*

    I … think the gift giving here is a problem. Six gifts of this price (nice gift baskets are often north of $20) is a huge lift for folk who are coworkers. I hope the compensation is huge and that no one is struggling to feed their family for this nonsense.

    That being said, I would suspect that finding six personal feeling gifts is hard and that Marie has issues doing this successfully. It is unkind to all to keep insisting on a gifting tradition where the outcomes aren’t appreciated and the number of gifts is huge.

    And as a rebuttal to the just google it… may I draw your eye to the variety of responses and acknowledgement of the vast tapestry that is vegan or vegetarian? For folks who don’t spend their lives reading labels a cheese sprinkle isn’t going to register as real cheese. I doubt dairy is even in the first five ingredients on the label. And some cheese sprinkles are yeast based.

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      1. Head Sheep Counter*

        Still 5×20 is 100 for folks whom you work with…. its not a small amount and depending on where they live its not a small ask.

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    2. Colette*

      Per the OP, the people involved like the gift exchange and are happy to do it except for this issue.

      I’m not vegan but I sometimes buy food for vegans. I read the label, because that’s what you do when you are buying for someone you want to accommodate. And it’s easy to buy food labeled vegan, if you aren’t confident in your abillity to spot ingredients that will be an issue (or if you don’t know what ingredients are an issue.) If Marie had bought a popcorn gift basket that was labeled vegan by the seller, Liz would likely be reacting differently even if she couldn’t eat it for some reason.

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      1. Head Sheep Counter*

        I think this is dependent on where people live. If they are in an area where the grocery store is only Walmart… there aren’t necessarily all the same labels and things available. Sure one could order online but that’s fraught with other issues (starting with coordinating shipping to ones home, timing for food based items and rolling straight into the problems with the large purveyor of online shopping). We don’t have enough context about where this gift-giving nightmare is happening and what resources are available.

        There is a good argument to avoid food gifts though period. I mean I’d start at avoiding gifts at all… but if that’s not feasible… dipping out on food gifts is a good start.

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        1. Colette*

          I just checked Walmart.ca, and they have vegan chocolate. But even if she’s in an area where there are no vegan food options (which is unlikely, because Liz lives there, too), Marie is the one who decided to give food when there are many other options available.

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          1. Head Sheep Counter*

            I’m sure Walmart has all sorts of things if one is willing to hunt. And since Marie isn’t… I don’t understand the food thing. 5-6 plants or packets of seeds and a pot, or mugs or??

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  75. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    We hold a gift exchange where basically everyone buys a gift for everyone else. I understand that’s probably a bit much, but it works for us.

    Does it though?

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  76. Kris*

    OMG, Marie could so easily have gotten Liz a vegan cookbook or gift card to a vegan restaurant. It really does feel almost deliberate.

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  77. Anon4this*

    I would recommend not having everyone buy gifts. It’s expensive and honestly everyone has too much stuff. Or do an exchange with gift cards or something?

    I buy for my team members and my boss and grandboss (very top person) buy me and my level gifts.

    My boss knows I’m a vegan and that I also don’t drink. I stopped a few years ago and let them know because we have a lot of events with alcohol. Alcoholism runs in my family and although I have luckily never had an issue I just didn’t want to drink anymore. My boss for the last two years has given me alcohol! I think they are so busy and they get the same thing to everyone I thank them and move on. It’s usually a nice bottle of wine or hard liquor so for the wine I give to my neighbor who is very into wine.

    I have had people give me milk chocolate not thinking I can’t have milk. I chalk it up to not knowing and say thank you and move on. I do know some vegans who think if you give them honey or wear leather or eat a steak in their presence you’re being rude. I am not one of those people!

    Last year my geandboss gave me a gift card with someone else’s name. It had this perfumey note about how wonderful they were. This person in all honesty barely did any work and caused our organization so many problems I was more upset by the note than the gift card mix up! My grandboss apologized and it was meant for me she just sent it twice and forgot to change the name and nice (electronic). This year my GB told me she felt she had to write that note as this person kept threatening to sue! Literally I could write a short book of the major issues this person caused but won’t hear but I don’t understand people who get out of not working and being incompetent by threatening a lawsuit! Some people have no shame.

    But if you keep this gift exchange why can’t Marie just google vegan gifts and buy one? There’s vegan dark chocolate and plenty of vegan items everywhere now! But I think this gifting culture needs to change.

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  79. Harried HR*

    Unpopular Opinion – Marie should give Liz Cash moving forward. Liz needed to stop weaponizing Holiday Gifts

    Reply ↓
        1. Czhorat*

          Yeah, I suspect that if Liz had some other issue that Marie was repeatedly ignoring (an allergy, a religious restriction, or just a strong preference) the rest of the office and some comments would be different.

          Veganism gets a mad reputation, probably from the minority of super-vocal and somewhat obnoxious vegans.

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          1. JP*

            A lot of people are immediately defensive or hostile when they find out that someone is vegetarian or vegan. They often see it as a criticism of their own choices. To be fair, it can be, but often it’s just a personal choice that has nothing to do with anyone else.

            I think Alison had to do some cleanup on the comments for this post, but there are still examples of that defensive/hostile behavior in here. It can get very tiresome to deal with.

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    2. DramaQ*

      How is Liz weaponizing gift giving? She didn’t say anything the first time, she let the second go. I can get after the third time you’ve probably had it. I can get the leather dog collar because I know vegans who aren’t bothered by leather and some it extends to. Just like there are Pescatarians, ovo-lacto vegetarians etc etc.

      It can be hard to keep them all straight so mistakes can happen. But the popcorn thing? Come on you have to know freaking cheese isn’t vegan or at least after two failed attempts Google the product before you take it up to the register for purchase.

      Considering Marie seems to only bungle it with Liz I can understand that now it is starting to seem personal and targeted. As evidenced on here and elsewhere people seem to have very strong opinions on veganism and a very low opinion of vegans. It is not unreasonable for Liz to start wondering if Marie’s “absentmindedness” is a dig at her being vegan.

      If the office insists on the gift giving continuing perhaps food gifts should be off the table? With the many varied religious and dietary restrictions out there food is no longer one of those “everyone loves it!” type gifts.

      Give nice pens or a cute set of post it notes (I’ve seen some that turn into a zen garden as you pull them off). Something that people can use and is neutral territory gift wise.

      Then again Marie would probably bring leather bound notebooks and it would start all over again.

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  80. dee*

    As Alison said, this tradition might have to go. If everyone is gonna maintain it, the best thing could be for everyone to make up a list of things they like to avoid this sort of incident. While Marie had good intentions, I don’t blame Liz for the way she feels.

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  81. Dido*

    The gift exchange is obviously NOT working for your office. Do y’all not have any family or friends to do gift exchanges with? I’m baffled by the practice of having to get 5 personalized (and seemingly fairly expensive) gifts for coworkers. I can’t imagine everyone is actually okay with that, but they probably just feel pressured to go along.

    Reply ↓
    1. Samwise*

      And every year, too. It’s tough enough getting highly personalized gifts for family members who I love and who I know well (when some of those folks have been exchanging gifts for close to 50 years….thank goodness most of us have said, I don’t need anything)

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  83. Shellfish Constable*

    Late to the discussion part here, but as it’s part of my research area, I’m honestly curious to know what y’all think:

    If Marie had given Liz three gifts that were clear violations of her religion — i.e., Liz is Muslim and Marie had given her a ham, or Liz is an observant Seventh-day Adventist (so, vegetarian) and Marie gave her the “sausage popcorn” or whatever — would folks still be on the side of “it was an honest mistake!” or would it seem more sinister? Would we still think, as Alison so generously put it, “oh, you don’t know what you don’t know” and give Marie a pass, or would we think Liz needs to get her shit together?

    I don’t have a horse in this race (so to speak) — I am just genuinely curious what people think. Because in the UK and elsewhere veganism has been considered by the courts to be a “protected class” and therefore Marie’s gifts would stray into low-key harassment. What say all of you??

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    1. Niles 'the coyote' Crane*

      I would probably think it was an honest mistake if the religious practices in question weren’t super well known and different followers have slightly different interpretations of them.

      Unless the person doing it had a history of denigrating that religion (or religion in general) or being a D to colleagues. The letter doesn’t say that is the case with Marie, although I agree with Alison that it’s worth exploring that further.

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      1. Jennifer Strange*

        Sure, but after the first time of giving someone a gift that goes against their religious practices, why wouldn’t you ask them what gifts they can and can’t receive instead of continuing to guess blindly?

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        1. NotBatman*

          Problem there is that simple rules can have complex applications. A religious example is that in Catholicism capybaras count as fish, so you can eat them during Lent — but you can’t eat lobster, which doesn’t count as fish.

          To get back to OP’s example, “vegan” can be similarly hard to understand. “I can’t have Jello, or lentil soup, or silk clothes, or red dye, or…” can take forever, and still not result in complete understanding.

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          1. Jennifer Strange*

            My point is that if you specifically ask them what they can and can’t receive the complex applications don’t matter because they are specifically telling you. Liz can just say, “I love gardening, so a potted plant would be great!” or “This is my favorite vegan chocolate shop”.

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        2. Samwise*

          I’m guessing that this is one of those gift exchanges where the expectation is to come up with a thoughtful, personalized gift and that the recipient doesn’t know what the gift is ahead of time. So it’s not just getting the right gift, it’s also getting the right gift with the pleasure of a surprise. If it’s a surprise, then it’s “more meaningful” because you’ve had to really work at getting it right. The recipient is pleased because the giver has shown they thought about the recipient, understand them, worked at getting just the right and most appropriate gift. The giver gets the pleasure of the recipient’s happiness and acknowledgement of the giver’s thoughtfulness and ability to get just the right gift.

          This kind of gift exchange requires a lot of emotional work and a lot of savvy, too. Full of landmines.

          Which is bonkers for a workplace!

          To answer your question about religion: even for a religion with well-known religious practices, you can still get it wrong. Do a search on this site for kosher, for instance.

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      2. Shellfish Constable*

        Interesting — thank you!

        Because I guess the “super well known” part is what’s sticking in everyone’s craw. It’s true you don’t know what you don’t know, but in some countries the law has weighed in to tell employers, “That’s fine, but it’s your job to learn what you don’t know so that you don’t offend or harass anyone — and that goes for your employees, too.” By that logic, Marie is the one who should get her shit together, because she would be setting her employer up for some unpleasant repercussions.

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    2. TechWorker*

      Personally I don’t think gifts from a coworker are something you are entitled to and thus I don’t think it can be considered harassment.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jennifer Strange*

        That’s not how harassment works. To be clear, I’m not saying in this case Marie is harassing Liz (though I do think she’s shown herself to be, at best, thoughtless) but something doesn’t have to be an entitlement for it to be harassment if a co-worker receives it (especially three times).

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      2. Colette*

        So if someone put peanuts on the desk of someone allergic, would that be OK if they said it was a gift?

        If a stalker sends their victim flowers, is that OK if it’s a gift?

        Of course things you are not entitled to can be harassment.

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      3. fhqwhgads*

        Is giving someone you know to be an Orthodox Jew a manger figurine set not harassment because it’s a gift?

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    3. Spooz*

      I’m in team “this is crushingly thoughtless and Marie has really dropped the ball and is a terrible gift giver, but it’s not harassment unless there’s something else going on”. I would think the same thing about religiously inappropriate gifts.

      I’m Catholic. Imagine someone gave me a copy of the Koran in year one. Then a little desk-sized statue of Ganesh in year two. Then in the third year they tried reeeeaaaaalllllly hard… and got me a ouija board, set of tarot cards and book of horoscopes.

      If that was all that happened, then yeah, I’d be upset at how thoughtless they were being and also think they were thick as two short planks, but I wouldn’t think they were personally out to get me.

      If, however, it came on the back of lots of eye-rolling and snarky comments and “Oh riiiiight, I forgot YOU PEOPLE don’t X, how WEEIIIRRRRD!” …then yes, I would feel very got-at. What I would do about it in the workplace (vs what I would go home and complain to my husband about), I’m not sure.

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      1. Shellfish Constable*

        I like these analogies, thanks for sharing!

        But I also wonder at which point thoughtlessness strays into truly offensive. Because I also liked The Office Vegan comparison above (and others have used this analogy, too) of someone being an out and proud recovering alcoholic who has made it clear to their office — perhaps after some mix-ups — that they are sober, only to receive a bottle of wine as a gift the next year. Like, really?? I guess it is technically thoughtless, but it’s also hugely offensive.

        IIRC, that is the origin of veganism falling into a protected class in some regions — times when an employer said, “Oh, well, we know this offends your personal ethical worldview, but maybe don’t worry about it and just pretend its all good?” only to have the government step in to tell them, “No. No it is not all good.”

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        1. Spooz*

          This is kind of beside the point, but I think you might find this interesting.

          We’re also in the UK and we homeschool. As you may know, there is A Lot Of Debate at the moment about regulating or limiting homeschooling.

          I had an interesting conversation recently about whether Catholics would be able to argue that it’s against our human rights to prohibited homeschooling (as some countries do) on the basis that it is an integral part of our religion that parents should be free to choose to educate their children themselves, and therefore to prohibit it would be to restrain the free exercise of our deeply held religious beliefs.

          I can’t remember all the technical parlance and the specific laws and catechism/encyclical citings offhand, but it poses an interesting general question about what “deeply held philosophical and religious beliefs” can cover. I almost wish it would come up because I’d love to know how UK law would rule on this particular issue.

          I recall a child abuse case in the UK where a very young child was malnourished because it was being fed a profoundly inadequate vegan diet and the parents said that it was their human right to exercise their deeply held philosophical beliefs about veganism. I’m pretty sure the judge did the sensible thing and decreed that it’s all very well to be vegan, but you still have to provide an adequate number of calories to your child and charged them with neglect.

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          1. Shellfish Constable*

            Oh that’s fascinating! I’m actually not in the UK (big fan, tho! :) ) and here in the U.S. we’ve had similar debates about “deeply held philosophical beliefs” versus “religious beliefs.” On a state-by-state basis courts have wavered from “anything goes” to “religion gets protection but philosophical beliefs don’t” (ala the state where I currently [unfortunately] live, Florida) to “we’re tired of all of you and this is why nobody can have nice things anymore” (i.e., where I’m actually from: California).

            All of the above is why I’ve been so intrigued by other countries folding veganism in under the status of “protected class.” Because for many vegans, it’s a philosophical and ethical belief system, so while it isn’t religious, per se, it has the same world-shaping, all-encompassing effect of a religion.

            And that’s the other reason I think this whole gift debacle is interesting: because it shouldn’t be a matter of degree of adherence, really, as some folks are equivocating in the comments. “Some vegans eat honey…” Well, some Jews eat bacon — one of my dearest friends is Jewish and his favorite food is bacon (but he only eats it out of his own house lol). But holy moly, if one of his colleagues tried to give him a gift of the “bacon of the month” club or some such?! In some places — like the UK, but arguably here, as well — his employer would be wise to nip that shit in the bud.

            Which is to say, should Marie’s gifts to Liz be any different? Again, I don’t have answers, but I think it’s such an interesting conundrum.

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    4. PurpleCattledog*

      Clear violations to Liz? Clear to Marie? Or clear to some mythical person on the street? I can see treating veganism equivalently to religion, but I don’t think you could say if it was religiously offensive it’s automatically bullying.

      Marie is not giving gifts to Liz for fun as such. She’s participating in a semi-compulsory gift exchange as part of her job.

      I would expect the law to have a limit on the duty of care a coworker owes to their colleague in these circumstances.

      I could understand an argument that the company has a duty to ban gift exchanges – but not that a coworker must become an expert on the specific ethical framework of the colleague so that gifts comply.

      Each of Marie’s transgressions against Liz’s beliefs have been different and not repeated. I’m struggling to find religious equivalents because I’m not well enough versed in religions with these types of restrictions. The restrictions in my own religion aren’t going to show up as gifts or in the workplace!

      Marie never repeated any of her errors (she didn’t forget about honey and buy honey again, she didn’t forget about leather and buy a leather-bound book next time. So if she likewise violated or insulted 3 separate aspects of someone’s religion that it is understandable she didn’t know about or mean to violate, in 3 separate incidents over 3 years – I think it would be very hard to argue bullying or religious discrimination. I think it would be impractical to require an employee to foresee the risk and mitigate add it is unreasonable to require staff to become sufficiently familiar with religions to be able to avoid giving offence.

      So yes I’d look at it the same.

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    1. MaxPower*

      At that point, why bother?

      Liz gets Marie a $15 Starbucks card, Marie gets Liz a $15 Starbucks card… Everybody might as well just keep their cash.

      I’m not defending this whole office gift exchange, but if you’re not getting each other actual gifts and just swapping money around in similar amounts, what is even being accomplished?

      Reply ↓
      2. Czhorat*

        Because if you just kept your cash you could skip this month’s starbucks run because your budget is tight or you want to splurge on something else. If everyone gets everyone a Starbucks gift card then you HAVE to spend that fifteen bucks on Starbucks.

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        1. MaxPower*

          How is that a benefit? If I keep my cash, I can spend it on anything, including Starbucks. If I have a Starbucks gift card, now I have to spend it at Starbucks, even if I’d rather spend that money elsewhere.
          Not to mention that gift cards rarely equal one purchase cleanly. So that Starbucks gift card likely means that I either have to let some of the value go, because a drink is less than the value, but the value isn’t enough for two drinks, OR I have to spend extra money because to buy that second drink, I need to kick in some cash for the balance.
          Gift cards can be ok gifts, but in a gift exchange if people are just exchanging similar value gift cards with each other, they’re turning fungible cash into specific store credit for each other. Even worse if they swap gift cards of similar value to the same store/restaurant. Why bother? They’d literally be better off handing each other $20 bills.

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          2. KHB*

            But by that logic, all mutual gifting arrangements are at best useless and at worst worse than useless. If you buy me a gazingus pin and I buy you a thingamajig, then either (1) I was already planning to buy that gazingus pin, and you were already planning to buy that thingamajig, or (2) we weren’t. Case (1) is no better than if we’d each bought the items ourselves with our own money, and case (2) is worse, because we each could have done something else with our own money that we would have found preferable.

            Except, the problem with that argument is that humans aren’t perfectly rational robots acting within a perfectly consistent framework of economic value, and the value of gifts isn’t purely economic anyway. There’s value, beyond the $15, in saying “I know you like Starbucks, so here, have your next 2 1/2 drinks on me.” (Provided, of course, that the recipient actually does like Starbucks. If they don’t – if they’d literally rather go anywhere else – that’s where you run into problems, as seen in this post.)

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  85. Ann O'Nemity*

    Has Marie followed up with Liz again? I think saying something like this could go a long way:

    I wanted to take a moment to sincerely apologize for the gifts I’ve given you in the past that weren’t vegan. My actions were never meant to cause harm or offense. Looking back, I see that this happened because of my own ignorance around veganism and how complex it can be. I’ve also encountered conflicting information online about what is and isn’t vegan, but that’s no excuse for not doing the due diligence to better understand your needs. If you’re comfortable, I’d really value your recommendations or guidance on what kinds of things you’d actually like or feel good about receiving.

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  86. Chirpy*

    Actually, you know what? If Marie really wanted to give everyone a “snack themed” gift, a much better option would have been a nice bowl or mug, ideally from a local potter. No food restrictions to consider there.

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  87. Pay no attention...*

    I’ll say that Marie is intentionally pushing boundaries — so not quite the same as being thoughtless or thoughtful — because after two mistakes with someone who she knows has a very restrictive ethical code, maybe consider not giving anything at all to do with food or animals — but instead she decided that her theme for the year is snacks? Interesting. Marie seems committed to picking something that could fail. Give a set of notecards/stationary or a cute tea towel (unless she manages to find the rare wool or leather tea towel) …or a gift card instead.

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      2. Dahlia*

        In what world is Liz impossible to buy for? Get a book or a mug or something. It is not particularly complicated.

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      3. Observer*

        I’ll say that Liz is impossible to buy gifts for and Marie should stop trying.

        Really? Then how did the other four people manage to do it for 3 years?

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  88. CityMouse*

    I’m someone who has a vegan family member. Three/Sort of four incidents in a row? Look, I’ve made mistakes in the past, but an uninterrupted string of errors, this feels like weaponized incompetence. In cases where I have messed up, I try to provide a replacement immediately.

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  89. Pyjamas*

    Within an extended family, if A is giving B inappropriate gifts, C will get a specific list (item, brand, provider) of acceptable gifts from B and share with A. Why aren’t the other four individuals in this (imho superfluous) gift exchange preemptively intervening. Seems toxic to me and not because of this imbroglio but because of the “we’re like a family” vibe

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  90. NCA*

    I participate in crafter “secret santa” gift swaps all the time, and we fill out a profile that includes things like stuff we can’t have (I’m strongly sensitive to scents, for example, and keep kosher-style so bacon is out), and stuff we’d love to have or would actively find useful. It sounds like something like this might be of benefit here, if they are going to continue the gift exchanges…

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    1. NotBatman*

      Good thought — for our family Secret Santa this year, my brother had us use a registry where we each chose 10-15 items that caught our eye, and each person’s “Santa” picked out 2-3 until they hit the $50 limit. I love all my gifts, I had an easy time buying, and it was a stress-free exchange.

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  91. Ashley*

    This feels wild to me that someone would be trying so hard to be “thoughtful” but not just buy something that’s specifically labeled vegan. By gift three, recognize you’re not good at this and just buy a specifically vegan-labeled gift. A quick Google research will provide just so, so many articles saying things like “20 Vegan Gifts under $30” etc.

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  92. fhqwhgads*

    A) they need to stop doing everyone gifts everyone. Letter starts by saying it works, but the rest of the letter makes it clear it does not.
    B) After the first time Marie made the mistake, the next step is google “vegan gift ideas” not continue assuming you know when you’ve determined you don’t, and not ask another coworker what they think. Like, yeah, popcorn, but you still need to check with any food item. Does it say it is vegan? If no, don’t buy it for the vegan. Even if she wanted to go with a “snack theme” I’m sort of perplexed after making two vegan mistakes she’d want to buy food for a vegan again.
    Like, I wouldn’t jump to “actually this is intentional bullying”. But it definitely isn’t thoughtful either.
    And forced work gift exchanges can be and often are fraught for other reasons. Just because it hasn’t yet gone south in half a dozen other ways doesn’t make this whole set up a good idea.

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    1. DramaQ*

      I will say in defense of the coworker who gave the popcorn idea they probably didn’t stop to think about flavorings. I know I don’t put the flavored salts and stuff on my popcorn I don’t like them. I may have been thinking one of fancy boxes that has different types of popcorn inside it like one my mom got me for Christmas once. It’s Marie that should have stopped to look at the package and read what it contained before buying it. Then on top of that not making 100% sure she didn’t mix up the box with meat snacks in it?

      Reply ↓
      1. DramaQ*

        * popcorn kernels. It contained yellow, white, blue, pink varities. It was pretty neat they all had different textures and flavor even unseasoned.

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  93. jess*

    I don’t really think Marie is “kind of an ass” or that it’s “damn thoughtless”. I agree it is thoughtless, but “damn” seems to imply something worse, like gross negligence instead of just negligence. It is JUST an office gift exchange. She’s JUST a coworker. Marie, like everyone, presumably has a lot of other stuff going on at the holidays. Maybe she’s getting presents for her family, her friends, her kids’ teachers, etc. Maybe she’s shopping and cooking for her gluten free relatives or figuring out how to quarantine her daycare germ-exposed baby before her immunocompromised aunt visits, or whatever. Like yes, this could have been done better, but forgetting or misunderstanding a coworker’s preferences and dietary restrictions is not that bad in the grand scheme of things.

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    1. Colette*

      No one who is gluten free should eat anything Marie makes.

      But the thing is, it was a gift exchange, not a food exchange. The vast majority of gifts are vegan, yet Marie is missing the mark every time. Stationary, some sort of cubicle decoration, a nice picture frame, a winter hat, something with the word “vegan” on the label … there are tons of options that (while they might not be Liz’s favourite gift ever) wouldn’t be actively offensive.

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      1. jess*

        So you’re assuming that Marie is careless and lackadaisical about everything in her life, thus she can’t be trusted to handle someone’s gluten free needs, and I’m saying that is a pretty big leap from the evidence at hand (that she didn’t put her coworker’s vegan gift at the tippy top of her priority list at a very busy time of year).
        Maybe her own kid just got diagnosed as celiac so she’s spending all her time learning how to make gluten free stuff, and so last year she totally meant to spend time and get the perfect vegan-friendly present for Liz after the dog collar mistake, but now she ran out of time and thought “popcorn, yes, that’ll be OK!”. My example is totally hypothetical, but I’m just saying it doesn’t make her an ass. It makes her a normal busy person.

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        1. allathian*

          Why are you so determined to excuse Marie?

          Getting it wrong three times in a row is thoughtless at best, malicious at worst. The other coworkers managed to give Liz something she could use, it’s not that difficult.

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  94. Annastasia Von Beaverhausen*

    Oof – Marie is kind of shitting the bed here over and over again – I don’t blame Liz for being cool with her.

    After the first dud gift, if gift giving is normal/expected in this office, Marie should have replaced it and tried harder for year two. After screwing up again for year two, the fact that she absolutely botched year three is really inconsiderate and she should absolutely replace the gift with something very thoughtful.

    I don’t necessarily agree with offices doing these gift swaps, but if your office does then you owe a minimum of care to your coworkers – Marie was thoughtless over and over again.

    As to OP, I don’t think you have to involve yourself at all – not your circus/not your monkeys and all that, but I’m curious to know if Marie is this thoughtless to other staff members and with her work in general because this is really becoming a pattern. :(

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  95. Smith*

    Liz is overreacting. Like, first of all, it’s possible Marie doesn’t even remember that she’s vegan. And dietary stuff can be so particular, what counts vs doesn’t count can be different from person to person under the same umbrella.

    I think it’s fair to cater to meat vs not meat and food allergies, and maybe stuff like being a former alcoholic if you’re open about that, but beyond that generally speaking your job as the recipient of a gift is to smile and accept it. Liz is being overly picky. She should just get over herself and eat the popcorn with the cheese like a normal person, or else donate it to a food bank where someone else can enjoy it. But there’s no reason for her to ice out her coworker for not being able to figure out the nuances of her own lifestyle choices.

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    1. MaxPower*

      Marie absolutely does know that Liz is vegan, as evidenced by the fact she asked a co-worker for suggestions for a vegan snack to buy Liz.

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    2. Colette*

      This is not a reasonable position. Liz is vegan; she’s not going to eat cheese because it’s there.

      Marie doesn’t have to cater to any food restrictions; she’s just choosing to do so by continuing to buy food gifts. So it comes down to what does she want the gift to do? Does she want it to say “I had to buy you something so here you go”, or does she want it to demonstrate that she cares about Liz as a person?

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    3. Jennifer Strange*

      What an abhorrent thing to say. I’m not vegan, but I would never expect someone to adhere to what I think is “normal” when it has no effect on me. Choosing to keep vegan doesn’t make someone “picky” any more than choosing to keep kosher does.

      If Marie wants to continue to give gifts, then she should be thoughtful enough to keep in mind what her co-workers can and cannot enjoy. If she’s not going to do that then just give cash.

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    4. knitted feet*

      Oh good god, veganism has been around for a very long time and it’s not that obscure. It IS normal. And you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to work out that cheese counts.

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    5. Spooz*

      A lot of this commentariat is American and skews Democrat. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that you do too.

      Now, in our office gift exchange, I bought you a hagiographic biography of Trump. In the second year, I bought you a “pro life” bumper sticker. In the third year, I bought you a MAGA baseball cap. Maybe next year I’ll try really really hard to get it right and donate in your name to an anti-abortion crisis pregnancy centre.

      Honestly, political stuff can be so particular. What counts as “liberal” can vary from person to person under the same umbrella. I mean, some Democrats are pro-life, right? You should smile and accept those gifts. It’s possible I don’t even remember you’re not a Republican. You should just get over yourself and read the book, put the sticker on your car, and wear the hat when you’re mowing your front lawn or running errands. There’s no reason for you to ice me out for not being able to figure out the nuances of your political choices.

      Feel free to reverse the polarity if you have different political leanings, or pick the equivalent for your non-USA country… but those are all your words up there.

      I mean, do you not think that by year three I should have just got you a pack of HB pencils and shut up? Wouldn’t you feel kinda got at? I deliberately picked a contentious example and some really beyond-thoughtless gifts to demonstrate how Liz probably feels right now.

      (NB: I don’t think Marie is bullying her unless something else is going on. But at some point it really does suck to receive that string of “personalised” gifts. NMB: I’m not a vegan.)

      Reply ↓
  96. Moose*

    1. JFC having to buy individual gifts for all my co-workers based on their taste a personality sounds like a nightmare and I love my co-workers. Either let me get everyone the same snacks or just bake a ton of cookies and bring them in to the office or don’t ask me to bring gifts at all. Good Lord.

    2. There comes a point where “ignorance” becomes “malice” and it sounds like Maria is learning that the hard way. Giving an individualized non-vegan-friendly gift to a vegan 3 years in a row goes beyond “I just didn’t know!”

    3. I think it actually says worse things of Maria if this all truly is just an “innocent mistake” because she “didn’t know” than if she’s actively trying to be dismissive of Liz and her beliefs, TBH. Like, if so, Maria is an idiot of the highest degree. This all says way more about Maria than Liz.

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    1. NotBatman*

      Yes, all of this! After the first mistake (and definitely after the second), doing a google search for “vegan friendly gifts” or “vegan treat basket” would have been a pretty good idea. But also, if you’re expected to buy personalized gifts for every single one of your coworkers, there’s no wonder that these kinds of details would slip your mind.

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    2. Observer*

      Giving an individualized non-vegan-friendly gift to a vegan 3 years in a row goes beyond “I just didn’t know!”

      Absolutely!

      Let’s get real here- She was ok with taking the trouble to get a personalized dog collar. But she somehow could not manage to take the “trouble” to actually find vegan friendly gifts. Nor to properly label two *extremely* different gifts. (And don’t tell me that the two gifts probably were the same size and weight. Having seen those food samplers, there is just no way that’s likely.)

      Reply ↓
  97. Come On Eileen*

    At some point, keeping someone’s veganism top of mind is just asking too much. For example: I personally would remember veganism zero percent when buying a dog accessory.

    In this case, it’s top of mind because three gifts in a row have gone wrong.

    But in most other cases, a dog collar is not a huge faux pas.

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    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Would you say keeping in mind someone’s food allergy is too much? Or their religion? Or that they’re sober/a former alcoholic? If it is too much then just give them money.

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      1. PinkSoda*

        Actually… I have a food allergy and I do think it’s asking a lot for others to remember it. Every year, birthdays and holidays, I am gifted something I can’t eat. Usually, it’s something that appears safe until you read the ingredients. Sometimes, it’s a situation like Marie’s honey, where a coworker bought cookies for the whole office and I can’t eat them. I have never, ever been bothered by this and I would never assume ill intent. I greatly appreciate when folks do go the extra mile, but otherwise, I never expect anyone to recall my specific allergy. We’re all adults with full lives and lots of things to remember :) I realize that not everyone with food allergies feels this way. When I’m ordering food for a group, I am always especially cognizant of restrictions and allergies. But in general, if someone is spending their money to purchase something for me, I’m just going to be grateful for the thought and move on. I hope this perspective is helpful.

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        1. Jennifer Strange*

          You’re certainly welcome to have that perspective, but Liz (and others) are also allowed to have the perspective of being singled out by consistently receiving a gift that goes against their personal beliefs (especially when care seems to be taken with every other co-worker to give them something that specifically appeals to them).

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          1. PinkSoda*

            I think it’s a leap to say that care was taken with every other coworker. The first year, everyone received the same gift. The second year, Marie specifically bought something for Liz’s pet. And the third year, she went so far as to ask for another coworker’s input, even if she did end up missing the mark. It’s just very odd to me to assume ill intent when someone is spending time and money to purchase a gift. Especially because there is nothing in this letter to indicate that Marie has been passive-aggressive or rude before.

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            1. Jennifer Strange*

              But continuing to give someone things that go against their beliefs IS passive aggressive, even if unintentional. All Liz is seeing is that two years prior she received something she couldn’t use and informed Marie about that. Then the third year Marie continued to give her something that, in her belief system, was unethical. That’s a lot for someone to bear.

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              1. PinkSoda*

                I think we just disagree on this, and that’s totally fine. My main point was to highlight that people feel very differently on things like this, so I don’t think this is a situation where Marie is 100% wrong and Liz is 100% right. It’s absolutely fair for Liz to find this upsetting, but that also doesn’t mean Marie is doing it to be mean or rude.

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      2. Come On Eileen*

        I wouldn’t keep their food allergy in mind when buying them a dog collar. That’s the point I’m making — I do understand veganism enough to know that the vegan person doesn’t ingest a lot of things I ingest. But if I have to extrapolate that logic to so many other areas of their life — i.e. dog collars? — then you are asking me to do too much.

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        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Sure, but Liz accepted the dog collar graciously and declined the offer of another gift, so that’s not part of the issue? Also, would you be able to keep in mind that someone is Jewish before purchasing them something with a Christian theme, or would that also be too much?

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          1. Come On Eileen*

            If I know someone is Jewish, I’m steering away from religious gifts as best I can. The point I’m making is that you can expect people to know a reasonable amount, and abide by what they know, but expecting people to know the exact depth and breadth and height of someone’s restriction is unreasonable. Expecting someone to know that veganism extends to dog collars, I’d argue, is unreasonable.

            I’m a sober alcoholic. My circle knows to not buy me alcohol. Do they need to know whether they should or should not buy me a slice of tiramisu? Eh, I’m giving them some leeway. Giving leeway and the benefit of the doubt is a beautiful thing.

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            1. Jennifer Strange*

              You don’t get to determine what’s unreasonable, though (and you keep going back to the dog collar even though, as I pointed out, Liz accepted it graciously). Marie has already given Liz two gifts that go against her beliefs, so she knows Liz is vegan. Similar to how you would steer away from religious gifts if you knew someone was Jewish, why couldn’t Marie just buy something from a vegan shop online?

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    2. KHB*

      The dog collar by itself was not a huge faux pas. None of the gifts by itself was a huge faux pas – it’s the three-times-in-a-row pattern that’s taking it into problem territory.

      And if everybody else in the office has been able to buy gifts for Liz without tripping over their own feet (as I suspect is the case; otherwise OP would have mentioned it), then it’s not too much to ask of Marie also.

      Reply ↓
  98. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

    This is why gifting in the workplace is best avoided. My gift to my coworkers is not having to see my face or hear my voice while we’re on holiday break. They love it.

    Reply ↓
  99. gueditaa*

    When I was an intern in theater summer camp in high-school, we did a secret-admirer/secret-santa type exchange throughout the month where we’d give gifts/surprises to whomever we selected – and everyone had written an “about themselves cheat sheet” that gave key details of things they liked or allergies/please don’t get that the secret admirer could use to help guide them. For 2 years in a row I was given chocolate gifts by my (different each year) secret admirers, despite writing “NO CHOCOLATE (please, I can’t eat it)” on my list! I was annoyed and probably somewhat catty when I did get the chocolate gifts because I was a teenager who hadn’t yet learned graciousness. But gift-giving is a good skill to practice and learn, it doesn’t always go well the first go-around even with mitigations. But also I still hold a grudge against these otherwise sweet and lovely castmates of mine for gifting me chocolate and I hope neither of them is the Liz here now that we’re all adults.

    Reply ↓
    1. fhqwhgads*

      It’s always a good idea to have a “3 things that are a good idea, 3 things PLEASE NO” list in at-work gift exchanges. I think even if you weren’t a teen, it’s fair to not be gracious when someone was literally told what not to do and did it anyway.

      Reply ↓
  100. NotBatman*

    Obviously I’m not Liz, but — as someone with a dietary restriction that people mess up all the time, it can feel like death by 1000 cuts. My family has a bad habit of “cream cheese isn’t really dairy, right?” or “can’t you at least eat a few bites to be polite?” and I’ve been to countless Thanksgivings/retirements/parties where I not only can’t eat any of the food, but I get comments about being rude or high maintenance if I stand in the corner nibbling my purse pretzels instead of filling a plate.

    So it can feel bigger than it is, to have to deal with the same exhausting mistakes over and over. I laughed the first time I found myself in an 8-hour “lunch provided” work meeting whose vegan option was mozzarella sandwiches. The fourth time it happened, I wanted to cry from sheer frustration. If it was the same coworker over and over, I’d feel battered as hell even if these were honest mistakes.

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    1. Throwaway Account*

      I went to a weekend orientation for a grad program, lots of communication ahead of time about my vegan diet and many assurances that they could accommodate me. We were pretty captive for lunch and dinner for two days.
      – They served tortilla pinwheel sandwiches for the first evening (post-dinner) event. The vegan option was just shredded iceberg lettuce in the pinwheels. They were so proud and told me how they ordered them specially for me. The thing is, they got them from Publix and they have hummus which they could have selected for the filling. OK, that was just a snack, fine.
      – Day two, the lunch was salad with shredded cheese (It is just a little cheese, I could pick it out, right?)
      – at snack time – string cheese, meat sticks, apples (no knives and I cannot bite apples) and literally every chip/snack was cheese flavored.
      – dinner I had steamed veggies – which was vegan! Just not very complete.

      It is so hard when you are stuck in a place!

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    2. Hexiv*

      If someone said “Can’t you just eat a few bites to be polite?” to someone with dietary restrictions in front of me, I think I’d have to “accidentally” pour my entire drink on them. I’ve seen my mom come home in physical pain so many times after going to some kind of work event where she felt obliged to “eat a few bites to be polite.”

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      1. allathian*

        “Only if you’re willing to sit next to me in a cramped office while I let out loud and smelly farts every five minutes.”

        Which is what happens if I eat lactose. Lactase doesn’t help because it also makes me fart.

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  101. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

    Maybe Marie is bullying Liz for being vegan. Maybe Marie is refusing to simply google “vegan gift ideas” or “can vegans have X” because she thinks veganism is stupid and she refuses to learn about it. Maybe this is actually Marie trying her best and she is just supernaturally bad at this/unlucky. Maybe Marie IS bullying Liz, but for her personality and not being vegan.

    Maybe Marie just goes to the store and buys the same thing for everyone because choosing 6 thoughtful gifts for 6 different people within the budget is a wild thing to expect at your job. Maybe Marie just doesn’t care enough about Liz or the gift exchange to add even one thing onto her to do list, even something a simple as google “vegan gifts near me”. Maybe Marie hates Liz and wants her to be sad.

    We don’t have enough information to know why Marie keeps doing this is my point. It’s very easy to think “XYZ is so obvious and so easy that you’d have to be evil and/or stupid to not know/do it”. But humans are weird and inconsistent and unpredictable so that way lies madness. Observing Marie’s behavior is not enough to determine WHY she is behaving that way, and it ultimately doesn’t make a different in what actions need to be taken now that we know her behavior is having a negative impact.

    As Alison said, yes management does need to look into this. If Liz says this is bullying, they have a responsibility to investigate. Maybe there is more going on here than LW/management realize. Maybe there isn’t. The only way to know for sure is to look.

    Additionally, despite LW’s protests, they really do need to rethink this event. Even if this is the only negative aspect of the whole event, how much time and emotion has been spent on this shit makes it enough of a negative that the whole thing may need to go. We can’t be sure with the information we have, but there’s enough evidence to make it clear this thing needs to be re-evaluated.

    If you do let the event go, as some have pointed out, be careful to explain the decision with one of the 80000 very good reasons to not do it and leave Liz and Marie’s situation out of it. Say it’s a shift to encourage employees not to spend their money on meeting the expectations of their job. Say you’re trying to ease the burden around the holidays. Say you’re trying to reduce waste and overconsumption. Encourage people to donate the money they would have spent on gifts to a local charity they care about. Ask people to give each other a handwritten note expressing gratitude or something instead of buying another candle.

    Ultimately this is a very silly thing for your org to spend its time and money on and if it turns out Marie really is bullying Liz, y’all have much higher priorities than a staff party.

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  102. Bike Walk Barb*

    I knew from the subject line that the comments on this one would blow up. Curious what everyone’s reaction would have been if it weren’t veganism.

    Kosher, halal, deathly allergy, giving a box of doughnuts to someone who’s made it clear at food-related events throughout the year that they don’t eat sweets…the list goes on.

    I’m betting that the gift exchange isn’t the only time that food habits come up between coworkers and Marie absolutely could be expected to have some knowledge of what Liz being a vegan entails. Yes, this is speculating beyond the facts in the letter but it’s based on how common food is in to foster social interactions in a workplace if they’re not all 100% telework.

    Someone brings cookies to work. Liz asks if they contain eggs. Answer is yes, Liz says no thanks, I don’t eat eggs. Marie asks why not, Liz says “because I’m vegan and I don’t consume or use anything involving animal products” (thus defining the specific flavor of veganism she practices, since as others noted it’s a spectrum)–same as she would have done if she had a nut allergy or celiac.

    Another day someone offers to pick up lattes. Liz specifies oat milk. On and on and on.

    In an office this small I think it’s reasonable to bet that food doesn’t only enter the place as a gift-giving thing once a year. What would the commenters have said if Marie kept forgetting her coworker were Jewish or Muslim and gave them pork sausage, then a pigskin collar for the dog, then ham?

    If OP wants to do something constructive and the gift exchange is going to continue, institute the form someone described where people lay out specific issues, constraints, and restrictions on what would genuinely delight their hearts. Expect everyone to provide the information and then to use it in making not only gift-buying decisions but also decisions about food served at workplace events, selection of restaurants for a group lunch out, and other instances where being equally considerate of everyone in the group should be happening year round.

    Reply ↓
    1. Aggretsuko*

      Honestly, I suspect we’d get similar reactions to religious food restrictions or food allergies. (I’ve seen what my food-allergic friends deal with as is.) Veganism just gets extra because it goes into not just food territory, and is voluntary (frequently, anyway) compared to “it would kill me if I accidentally eat an egg.” And frankly, “it might kill me if” is frequently ignored by people anyway.

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  103. Oregon Girl*

    Are Marie’s gifts to everyone in bad taste or just Liz? If she is able to give nice personalized gifts to everyone else, then being a poor gift giver is not likely the issue. Also depending on Liz’s personality if other people also got “bad” gifts she might not be mad. But it doesn’t sound like this is the case, but the evidence from the letter is thin.

    Also the rules veganism aren’t hard, no animal products. Honey and leather are both animal products. A nylon dog collar would have been cheaper and vegan, it is not that hard. Yes I know there are grey areas, and sometimes we need to be flexible, but. three times is pretty hard to excuse especially if everyone else got nice thoughtful gifts.

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  104. A Cita*

    I mean, google is a thing. And cheese powder? Really? (And I wonder if it’s buttered too.) It may not be intentional, but there’s also no real intention of trying to actually get it right.

    Reply ↓
    1. A Cita*

      I’m sorry, that wasn’t helpful advice. I really don’t have advice since OP is a bystander here. Others above have better advice.

      Reply ↓
      1. Throwaway Account*

        You are not wrong tho! OP could ask Marie if she wants help figuring out what is vegan. And they can google it!

        Reply ↓
      2. PinkSoda*

        No I think this is actually a good point that a lot of us are forgetting: the OP is a bystander here. There are so many comments debating Marie and Liz (myself included!), but the OP is the one who wrote in. I wonder how much the OP can really do without intensifying the situation. As Alison mentioned, if OP is close to Marie, OP could suggest politely that she apologize – but that would necessitate a very established and trusting relationship.

        Reply ↓
        1. H.Regalis*

          PinkSoda and A Cita, that is a good point. If OP were the manager, they could be like, “No more gift giving because it’s causing too much trouble”, and if they were actually Marie or Liz, their own behavior; but they are just a bystander in this.

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  105. GreenTea*

    One of the first rules of gifts for people with food issues is, don’t get food! Stop with the idea that it all has to be part of a theme. Get her a mug or flowers or a plant or headphones or a pen. If it really has to be snack themed get a popcorn BOWL. Trying to get food right with other people’s food restrictions requires a lot of thought that Marie isn’t willing to put in apparently.

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  106. H.Regalis*

    In such a small office, one person openly thinking another is a bad person is very awkward for everyone.

    Big middle child energy here :)

    LW, I get that it’s not pleasant but I think you should stay out of it and let it play out on its own.

    Reply ↓
  108. Throwaway Account*

    1. I would shut down the whole gift-giving thing, as so many here have said.
    2. I’m vegan, and I would just shrug even if Marie is doing it on purpose; it reflects much more about Marie. And Liz getting gifts from 5 other people! She is not left out!
    3. This is a perfect illustration of the old saw, “you know how to tell if someone is vegan, don’t worry, they will tell you.” I hate that joke because, yes, we will tell you, the third time you do this! Or the first time, so you don’t do it three times in a row. But that often does not stop people from buying gifts we and they cannot use or expensive ingredients they would not otherwise use and making vegan dishes “just for YOU!,” and then a couple of things are not vegan, and the whole thing gets wasted!

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  109. Qest*

    Please stop the gift giving altogether. It may cause more stress than joy.
    I would never eat anything from Marie – I`m glutenfree, and I would not trust her a bit in that too, though it would not only cause mental, but physical stress to my body.
    To work with someone oblivious like that must be stressful in itself.

    Reply ↓
    1. EDIA*

      That’s a nice thought, but LW is a bystander. As far as I can tell from the letter, LW has equal authority to unilaterally stop the gift giving as Liz and Marie (Liz and Marie are LW’s coworkers, not reports. I’d think LW would have mentioned if they were the boss). The advice is right. LW should just keep their head down. Maybe counsel Marie on how to make things right with Liz, if LW is close with Marie. Maybe. Maybe. Elsewise, don’t intentionally step in all that.

      Reply ↓
  110. A Poster Has No Name*

    LW, this is not your circus. These are not your monkeys. If Liz doesn’t want the popcorn, I’d take and sit back and use it while watching the drama from a distance.

    Reply ↓
  112. Christine*

    Here’s the definition of vegan:
    “Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”

    Giving animal products to a vegan is like gifting pork to someone who keeps kosher. It’s not just a little mistake; it’s extremely rude. There is a wealth of information on veganism online, so “I didn’t know” doesn’t cut it these days, and definitely not three years in a row.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hexiv*

      I don’t think it’s quite the same as getting someone pork who keeps kosher – the pork thing is one big, easily memorable rule, comparable to “vegans don’t eat meat.” Which, at least she hasn’t gotten Liz any meat? This is more like ordering your kosher friend a pepperoni pizza because you forgot the meat-and-dairy rule. Also not great, but not on the same level of aggressive rudeness.

      Reply ↓
      1. fhqwhgads*

        Pepperoni pizza is mixing milk and meat, AND pepperoni usually contains pork. So your counterexample is forgetting both rules you mentioned.

        Reply ↓
  113. Seb*

    Am I the only person reading the replies and diving people into two groups? Those I would like to buy me presents and those I wouldn’t?

    Reply ↓
    1. Kay*

      Should we wager on the percentage of their gifts that end up in the trash or are poorly received? I’m not typically one for gambling, but I feel like if I were to guess 95 with a over/under of 5 I would be golden!

      Reply ↓
  114. Hexiv*

    My mom has specific dietary needs that mean she’s effectively vegan: she can’t eat any kind of dairy product, or any kind of non-seafood meat, without getting sick. And I can’t tell you how often people, INCLUDING HER OWN MOTHER, just ignore that and get her things with milk products in them. She’s usually pretty chill about it and says she doesn’t mind because gifts aren’t that important to her, but it pisses me off when people get her presents that clearly show they aren’t thinking about her specific life circumstances. If it’s not food products with dairy in ’em, it’s often scented candles or perfume or some other gift that was clearly intended for “generic woman-shaped person” and not for my mom specifically. I know Mom’s not easy to shop for, but it would be nice to see people either make the effort occasionally or just not give her gifts if they can’t figure out a good one.

    This year one of her nonprofit friends got her a big bag of different types of canned fish for Christmas, and it was easily THE most thoughtful gift I’ve ever seen anyone get her.

    Anyway. It is astounding how much people can’t seem to remember to include people who can’t eat dairy products.

    Reply ↓
    1. Aggretsuko*

      I have one friend who gets IBS from dairy and has to abstain and another who’s allergic to dairy–I had to take him to the ER once and the last time we tried to eat out with him, he got dairied again despite pointing it out at the restaurant, getting it on the receipt, and eating at a “safe” restaurant. Dairy is a hard one. The allergic to potatoes, tomatoes, shellfish, and peanut people don’t seem to nearly have the amount of incidents that the can’t-eat-dairy folk do, from what I’ve seen.

      I think in general, “I CAN’T EAT THAT” is a challenge for people. They just don’t seem to get it at all or get it well enough.

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        Dairy is a hard one.

        Yes, it is. One thing that is really helpful for this specific issue is to look for kosher certified food that are either meat or “parve / parev” (which means neither dairy or meat.)

        The good certifications are absolutely meticulous about this stuff, including making sure that any machinery used for dairy is *thoroughly* cleaned before use on non-dairy certified foods.

        Oh, and kosher certified foods will never have shellfish. Because shellfish is by definition non-kosher. It’s the seafood version of ham.

        Reply ↓
    2. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      “My mom has specific dietary needs that mean she’s effectively vegan”

      “This year one of her nonprofit friends got her a big bag of different types of canned fish for Christmas, and it was easily THE most thoughtful gift I’ve ever seen anyone get her.”

      If I was told that someone was vegan or vegetarian, the LAST thing I would get them would be a big bag of canned fish. But that’s just me, I guess.

      Reply ↓
      1. Spooz*

        Buy that’s the point. Hexiv’s mother is NOT vegan, just has some vegan-adjacent really specific dietary restrictions. And her friend REALLY LISTENED to what they were, thought about it carefully, and bought something that was highly suitable to her as an individual.

        I have been similarly touched by such thoughtfulness from time to time. I can’t eat alliums or dairy and usually end up with my own sad little plate of weirdness at events, served last while I fend off attempts to give me the cheese-and-onion-surprise everyone else is having and desperately cross my fingers that there IS something for me at all.

        My own brother had a catered party recently and I couldn’t eat a single sandwich on the trays: cheese, ham and onion pickle, tuna and spring onion… I would have cried if I hadn’t brought my own food.

        But sometimes I go round to someone’s house and they’ve just made one whole normal meal everyone can eat. Fried chicken, peas and plain mashed potato recently. I felt so INCLUDED. It was genuinely touching.

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  115. Me*

    And this is why I opt out of gift exchanges.

    Seriously, Marie can’t manage to find a vegan gift 3 years in a row (no, a gift with cheese sprinkles is not vegan. Marie did not “really try” this year if this is what she came up with.)? There’s this thing called “Google”.

    Reply ↓
  116. Nilsson Schmilsson*

    Marie should buy fancy bottled water. I’m not kidding. I don’t know how to make it any easier for her. It’s easy to surmise that her ignorance won’t allow for any real thought into a gift for a workmate. Willful ignorance.

    Reply ↓
  117. Anti-Santa*

    Liz lost my sympathy 100% at “bullying” and lodging complaints which are now getting Maria verbally disciplined at work. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Grow the hell up, people.

    It’s fine to be annoyed that your coworker gets you shitty Christmas gifts. It’s so fucking NORMAL to get shitty work gifts. You just accept your shitty gifts and regift them to someone or you donate them to your nearest charity.

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    1. Anonforthis*

      Deliberately gifting a vegan coworker animal products, twice. And y’all think that was unintentional. Come on.

      Overall I agree. I’m British. Someone gifts you a dead animal carcass, wool, cheese – if the gift was *honestly* meant, you say thanks. You appreciate it.

      If there was malice involved – and you can usually tell – you say no and people know why. I think it’s pretty clear when gifts are an insult.

      Reply ↓
    2. Jennifer Strange*

      There’s a difference between a shitty gift and a gift that specifically goes against your beliefs, especially when it happens three years in a row.

      Reply ↓
  118. Kay*

    Should we wager on the percentage of their gifts that end up in the trash or are poorly received? I’m not typically one for gambling, but I feel like if I were to guess 95 with a over/under of 5 I would be golden!

    Reply ↓
  119. Yellow Lab*

    I think Marie is criminally clueless if not ill-intentioned. I can’t figure out why she didn’t steer clear of food altogether after the first mistake. Now, of course that didn’t save her on the leather collar, but it seems like it would be a lot easier to stay safe with a non-food item.
    If she wanted to go for food, she could have purchased an item specifically labeled as vegan or from a vegan merchant. This isn’t rocket science. Separately these are all excusable errors. Taken together, I think it’s likely that she has something against Liz, perhaps not consciously.

    Reply ↓
  120. Zipzap*

    I realize it seems to work for OP’s office, but getting a gift for each of your co-workers sounds stressful and tiring. Maybe they could revisit that idea next year and see if drawing names would be acceptable to everyone? As for how to make it up to the vegan coworker, I really like the gift certificate to a local vegan bakery idea. It’s thoughtful and almost definitely something the coworker can use!

    Reply ↓
  121. zillah*

    I’ve seen discussions about whether it’s reasonable to expect people to keep all their coworkers dietary needs straight or how to accept unusable gifts and the experience of veganism in general, but to me, none of those are quite the issue at hand.

    to me, the issue isn’t that marie just made a mistake. it’s that she made a big deal out of it and still got it wrong. it doesn’t matter whether we’d do the legwork to get a coworker a thoughtful gift – she did. she got a personalized dog collar last year. she asked someone about what counted as vegan this year.

    so to do all of that and still fuck it up is… not great, and i can see how liz might feel like marie is intentionally doing this. i don’t know that marie is – a lot of people just truly don’t understand – but i can see why it would be upsetting to end up in the middle of a spectacle of mismatched gifts and a coworker gasping and saying she really got you a vegan thing this time, this was a mistake – only for it to not be a vegan thing in a pretty obvious way, and for the coworker to rope someone else into it to explain why she thought it was vegan – at that point, marie has involved half the office in your opening meat and ultimately receiving cheese. i don’t know that bullying really applies here, but it would be upsetting three years in.

    op, you also say “I really think Marie tried this year.” i don’t want to assume, but that feels to me like it might imply that you haven’t felt that in previous years and/or at other points throughout the year – and if that’s the case, that might be part of where this is coming from. i do feel like there may be some context they might not be giving you, though.

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  122. Mid*

    I think if Liz was Kosher, or had a food allergy, the comments would be giving far less credit to Marie. And while there is definitely nuance and variation within veganism, there are also different degrees of allergies and interpretations of Kosher, and the easiest way to meet those standards is to go with something that is clearly labeled as safe for that diet. Get something clearly labeled peanut free if you’re gifting to someone with a peanut allergy, something labeled Kosher if you’re gifting to someone kosher, and something labeled vegan if you’re gifting to someone vegan. It doesn’t matter if Liz theoretically might be a vegan who sometimes wears secondhand leather or has a candy with red dye in it on the fifth Tuesday of the month. Just because some of my friends who keep Halal drink N/A beer (which often actually has a low percentage of alcohol in it, not truly 0%), doesn’t mean I would assume that anyone else who doesn’t drink would be okay with something that technically contains alcohol.

    If you don’t know the details but you know the general rule, follow that. If you goof up, meaningfully fix it and do better next time.

    The easiest solution would be for Marie to only give gifts that are clearly vegan, from a vegan shop. Or gift cards or other non-consumable items that are less fraught.

    But I also wonder if there’s more behind the scenes. Calling it bullying is a large jump, so I would be curious to know if she also makes constant comments to Liz about her food/life choices, and if this is part of an ongoing problem. I’ve had coworkers who were constantly fixated on other people’s differences, and while the comments might seem innocuous to others, it can be exhausting to be the recipient of those comments. (Think of the letter about one person who was obsessed about another coworker’s prosthetic limb. I’m betting some people who overheard those comments didn’t think anything of it, or thought it was normal curiosity, not the full blown harassment it actually was.)

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  123. Lily*

    It’s definitely not bullying, but that’s about it. Marie seems almost pointedly careless, in that, ”oh, right, she has a fancy-pants diet” kind of way. I can kiiiind of understand OP’s thinking it isn’t all so bad – I know vegans that eat honey, I also know people that only eat vegan but don’t live vegan and still buy/use wool and leather, and at least the cheese seasoning was in separate jars… But it still feels dismissive of Liz’s lifestyle choice, honestly. Marie should’ve just asked her, certainly after getting it wrong twice already.

    I’m very surprised that so many people in the comments are all about abandoning the exchange altogether. It’s clearly being enjoyed by everyone, so maybe instead of banning it, that one person should get their shit together.

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  124. Management Survivor*

    This is also ridiculous. It’s nice to be friendly with your coworkers. But they should shut down this gift giving nonsense. Like many people, I don’t celebrate Christmas, and I have no desire to buy presents for people in my office. We’re friendly, some of them are even friends outside of work. But I like to reserve giving presents to very close friends or relatives. To be forced to give presents to coworkers, some of whom you might not like very much, it’s just stupid. The fact that somebody’s got a particular dietary preference or whatever makes it that much more difficult and it’s really absurd to put pressure on people to know what things they can eat and what things they can’t eat and what they like and what they don’t like. Their manager should shut this all down. If these folks wanna exchange presents outside of work, good for them. But not at work.

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  125. Starry Motley*

    Throughout the entire space of “holiday gifts appropriate for coworkers,” how many of the possible options are NOT vegan? Why is it that Marie is skipping over socks and nice soaps and gift cards and all that jazz, and opting for non-vegan food items? What are the chances of doing that THREE TIMES by accident, particularly after having had the previous experiences and knowing to be careful???

    I’m not 100% that she’s doing it on purpose, but man, there is a nonzero possibility.

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  126. Plants*

    I suspect the issue is not necessarily the gifts but the thoughlessness of the overall behaviour pattern and feeling like she wasn’t included. Marie is showing how little she cares by not bothering to change how she operates or even a quick search. Us vegans are used to people making mistakes but here it seems like Marie made Liz feel left out 3 years in a row. Ok the third time was a genuine mistake but again the thoughtlessness of not wrapping presents with a name goes back to the pattern. It’s that ‘oh well, la la la’ that’s the problem methinks. Just my 2c and probably covered already by many commentators.

    Reply ↓
  127. Dek*

    Imma be honest, THREE times is just… that’s a lot. I also feel like a leather collar is a weird enough gift that it seems…maybe not deliberate, but iffy. And I wasn’t there so I can’t roll an insight check on how genuine Marie’s reaction was, but I find myself a bit skeptical that she “accidentally” mislabeled the gifts. Those seem like fairly different boxes, and while I know mislabeling can happen sometimes, I’m just not sure how it really does. You put the label on after you wrap the gift, right? Or at least a post-it note or something. I dunno, accidents happen, but after two other times, and for something SO meat-and-cheese related, it just feels like…one HECK of a coincidence.

    At best, she’s thoughtless.

    I don’t know that I’d nix the gift exchange entirely, because that feels like it could result in additional bad feelings (blaming one or the other or both of them for “ruining” it), but maybe do a secret santa or something instead…and make sure Marie doesn’t get Liz.

    Reply ↓

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