my employees can’t move on after I yelled at them, boss found out I’ve been hiding mistakes, and more

by Alison Green on January 22, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My employees can’t move on after I yelled at them

I do not deny I have yelled at some of my employees out of frustration. I am in my 60’s and had several strokes and my demeanor is short. I have apologized, but the group of employees cannot get past the fact that I yelled and are now holding it against me. I know that I am out of touch with the younger generation, having grown up in the late 60’s and early 70’s and in a military household I would like to say, “Knock it off and get over it,” but I know that would make things worse. As an engineer, I am black and white with no emotions….kind of “shut up and get the job done.” Any advice on how to address the employees to get them past my past harsh yelling?

Normally I’d say to sincerely apologize and vow you’ll treat them more respectfully going forward … but that’s not going to sound genuine if you don’t really see what the big deal is and still think your employees should just “get over it.”

Yelling is abusive and it’s not reasonable to be frustrated that they won’t just get over it. I’m skeptical that you’ll be able to move past this unless you can find a way to see their point of view … and to do that, you have to be sincerely interested in learning, not just in trying to make the problem go away.

Part of what you need to learn is why your employees — and most employees, particularly people with options — won’t tolerate being spoken to abusively. The other thing you need to learn is better management skills; you yelled out of frustration, which means you don’t know how to get what you need as a manager. That’s a skills deficiency on your side, not theirs — and this won’t get better unless you learn how to get things done without losing your temper. More advice here and here.

2. My boss found out I’ve been hiding mistakes from her

I work at a pharmacy. At the interview, my boss said that she demands one thing: to tell her when I make any mistakes. I’ve been there for a year, and I didn’t tell her that I forgot I’d left the keys to the pharmacy attached to the outside doors three times. In fact, she discovered that after my colleague found them attached to the door at closing. She then talked to me (with no yelling) and said that this should not be repeated. Fast forward to two months after that, I made a mistake by not telling a patient that they should pay an additional fee and didn’t tell her because I planned on paying the fee myself, and by that I would be solving the problem without her knowing. My colleague again told my boss, and she got mad at me. I talked to her, and she repeated her words but didn’t mention anything about firing me or repercussions. But I noticed that she and everyone at the pharmacy are ignoring me. I really love working there and I respect my boss and love her so much. What should I do ?

This is my first official job after graduating. However, I worked while studying in a toxic environment for two years where hiding mistakes and trying to fix them yourself was done at a daily basis.

Leaving the keys in the door outside a pharmacy is a really serious mistake; it’s giving access to a bunch of controlled substances to anyone who wanders by! Humans make mistakes, but if it happened three separate times, you’ve really got to figure out what’s happening that’s allowing that. Two times would be bad! Three is … very bad. I’m not trying to berate you, but I can’t tell from your letter if you realize that so I’m flagging it.

The thing about not telling your boss that you messed up a fee and instead planned to pay it yourself  — when she specifically told you the thing she cares about most is that you tell her about mistakes — is also bad. Strategizing to deceive her is a big deal! She needs to know because there could be consequences she’ll need to deal with. (For example, off the top of my head, if that patient is charged the correct fee in the future and is confused about why she wasn’t charged it previously, people need to know what happened. It could also point to a need for more training, which is info she’s entitled to as your boss.)

It’s smart to identify that you’re carrying over behaviors from an old job where hiding mistakes was normal, but in this environment, it’s a dysfunctional behavior. Your boss sounds like someone who won’t respond harshly to mistakes themselves, but cover-ups could get you fired.

To make this right, talk to your boss and explain that you used to work somewhere where mistakes were handled very differently but you understand how important it is to be open and up-front about mistakes at this job, and you’re committed to doing that going forward (and say you know that you’ve handled it wrong up until now). But you have to really mean that — if you cover up another mistake, it’s likely to be impossible to come back from it.

Related:
how to rebuild your credibility after messing up at work

3. When I provide info to a coworker, he forwards it as-is without warning me

I have a coworker who is intermediating between me and other people (clients, our superiors, etc.). Several times now he has asked me for some information, and then followed-up with, “Okay, I’ll pass it on like that.”

This feels really weird to me. I was writing my messages to him specifically, and I assumed he would repackage that information accordingly (possibly with a more formal message, or also with other data), before informing others. If I knew my message would be going directly to another party from the beginning, I would have written it very differently! Am I off-base here?

It’s definitely not unusual to write differently for one audience than another; you might be much less formal with a peer than with a client or a manager, or you might use shorthand with the former that you wouldn’t use with the latter. That said, your coworker may be judging that what you provided works fine as-is for his purposes. Either way, now that you know he does this, just start assuming that it may get passed on exactly the way you say it and write it accordingly … or you can explicitly say, “If this needs to go to a client or higher-up, I’d like to express it a bit differently so please let me know if that’s the case.” (Or you can even ask that before responding.)

4. Are colorful tights okay for work?

I work in government and there is no real dress code in my office. People wear polos and tees or blouses and dresses. Some people wear jeans. I like to be a little more dressed up and was wondering if I wear a pair of lilac tights under a white sweater dress would this be appropriate for the office. What do you think?

Yes!

5. How can I reject a job offer and still be considered in the future?

I just got my first adult job offer after finishing school. The job itself is perfect — the people are nice, the hours and workload are better than 90% of similar positions I’ve seen in this field, the compensation and benefits are great. I even felt like I clicked well with my potential colleagues.

My problem is the location. The position is in a small town an hour away from a big city. The winters are known for being cold and gloomy, which I am normally okay with, except I would be moving by myself (I’m single with no children and no family in the area) and anticipate it could get very lonely quickly. I was originally planning to live in the city so I could more easily meet other young single professionals, but I don’t think the commute would be feasible with this type of work (I tested the drive when I flew in for my interview). I do know some of my potential colleagues from previous training, but one is my ex, and while we are on good terms, I don’t think it’s smart to have my main support system be my ex (especially if one of us starts dating someone new who isn’t comfortable with our friendship).

If I declined the job offer at this time, is there a way to make it clear I still love the company and would happily reapply if my social situation changes? (I would happily move to the small town where the job is at once I’m married/have a partner, especially if we have kids. It’s an ideal family town, but not so ideal for singles.) How would I communicate that now and in the future, and without burning bridges?

I wouldn’t make it about your social situation — that’s a little too much information. Instead you could say something like, “I really like the company and its work but after a lot of thought, I don’t think I’m ready to make the move right now. So I’m declining, but I’d love to leave the door open for the future if a move does become possible for me.”

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    A reminder: We’ve had a recent increase in trolling here, and you can help me by NOT RESPONDING to it. Instead, please flag the comment for me (to do that, reply with a link, which will send your comment to moderation so I’ll see it) and I’ll take care of it. If you want, you can respond “reported” so people know it’s been dealt with and isn’t just being allowed to stand. But please do not engage. Thank you.

  2. SamiSalami*

    OP #1: While I’m probably 15 years younger than you, I have also had about a dozen mini-strokes/TIAs. Those can really do a number on your brain.
    For me, I can come to anger in less than a half second. Much faster than ever before.
    My anxiety can spike through the roof just as fast – unlike anything I had ever experienced.
    I recommend seeing your doctors: neurologist and a psycho-neurologist to begin with.
    Note that I’m not brushing off the way you’re treating your employees. It’s wrong. You must change what and how you work with people.

    1. CityMouse*

      I once worked for a manager who was terminally ill and in a significant amount of pain, but it still definitely did a number on those of us who were walking on eggshells around this person for years because we could have this intense disproportionate rage unleashed at us almost at random. More than one person quit or transferred because they couldn’t handle it (including me). This person was really intelligent and hard working but all anyone remembers is the yelling.

      1. Cmdrshprd*

        I agree even if it was 100% a medical issue on the receiving end it does not make a difference.

        like if I had the world’s best boss that never yelled, and they turned into a yelling boss because of a tumor, unless the tumor was going to be removed and have boss go back to before boss, I would not stay, and it would not be okay.

        but if boss said if the yelling is all the tumors fault, but I’m not getting it removed (by choice or cuz inoperable) I would not stay.

      2. perstreperous*

        I worked with one where we didn’t know he was terminally ill and in great pain … until I had enough of his bad temper and erratic behaviour and confronted him.

        It turned out that the company didn’t know either and he was immediately put on paid leave which, as it turned out, was only required for a few weeks.

        I’ve thought about this on and off for the past 25 years and have never managed to understand why someone would cover up an illness to that degree and keep coming to work (in the UK).

        1. 40 Years in the Hole*

          OT but reminds me of the movie: “Living.” Bill Nighy’s character receives a terminal Dx, but keeps things ever so buttoned down at work.

        2. DJ Abbott*

          IME it’s fairly common for people to be in denial about health issues. They’re afraid to/don’t want to deal with it, so they try to go on as normal and hope it will go away.
          Where I work we have a client who stayed long past retirement age at his job, and now has an advanced terminal illness. He still hasn’t done the paperwork to retire, and it’s starting to look like he never will. It seems like he wants to go on as normal regardless.

          1. perstreperous*

            Surprisingly, this has not been an issue in my experience although the UK mandatory requirement age was abolished in 2011: before then, you were forced to retire at “pension age”.

            I expected the scenario you see – people going on and on until they had to be dismissed because they became incapable of doing the job – but it hasn’t occurred.

            1. DireRaven*

              I think, then, people become afraid of dismissing an older worker for “not being able to do the job” because that worker can then come back and claim wrongful termination for ageism.

              And with the move from pensions to investment accounts (in the US) and many people not having enough “extra” money to set aside for their retirement investment accounts and the fickleness of the stock market, many may not be able to afford to actually retire.

              1. DJ Abbott*

                I’m sure you’re right about many people not being able to afford retirement.
                However, this client would get a very nice pension if he did retire. So doubtful it’s financially motivated.

        3. Polaris*

          In the USA it makes too much sense. Why risk your health insurance, potentially life insurance (if you have a company policy rider it’s likely canceled upon your employment ending), your paycheck, in the hopes that your company “does the right thing”. If there’s anything we’ve learned (and it’s seemingly proven here daily) its that companies often do NOT do the correct thing for anything other than “business”.

          One of my friends did not let his employer know that he was moving to hospice because of the above. He did not make it through a calendar week. Its NOT something he or his wife should have had to worry about at that point in life. Its just not. And it was. And it wasn’t a rinky dink small business running on the edge of legal either.

          1. perstreperous*

            Indeed, which is why I tacked “(in the UK)” on the end as an afterthought. The NHS is not perfect, or anywhere near perfect, but he would have been treated if he had sought treatment – even during the pandemic cancer care was prioritised.

            My girlfriend did research for her DSc which showed that relatively poor British cancer survival rates were largely because people were slow to seek treatment. I hadn’t realised until this comment that I had had a textbook example of that right in front of me, shouting!

            1. wittyrepartee*

              Wait, that’s fascinating. Did she get any information about what “slow to seek care” meant? Like- were they slow to seek care after diagnosis? Did she find that wait times for doctors affected this at all, or was it mostly about patient behavior?

              1. bamcheeks*

                It usually refers to the stage before you present to your GP with a cough/lesion/lump or other potentially cancerous symptom. There used to be a national cancer pathway standard that any patient presenting to their primary care physician with a suspected cancer had to see specialist within two weeks, and start treatment within six weeks. Obviously where possible it happened faster, but that was supposed to be the absolute maximum, with any breaches being tracked. (I worked in England, I am not sure whether this was UK-wide or whether Scotland, Wales and NI had different processes.) I don’t think this is a national standard any more, but once you’ve been referred to a specialist things should still be happening pretty fast. It would be pretty rare for anyone to not get treated after diagnosis unless they were actively choosing not to pursue treatment or they had some other significant issue which prevented them from engaging with the health service, like being unhoused or undocumented or something. So getting people into that first appointment with their GP is really important, but primary care is in absolutely meltdown thanks to Covid on top of 14 years of underfunding, so that’s where a lot of things go wrong.

              2. Spooz*

                Well, my father was diagnosed with cancer after a tumour was found during an unrelated appointment. He had no idea. He was seen by a specialist the week after and started treatment a week after that. He made a complete recovery and said the cancer “experience” on the NHS was an absolute red carpet affair in terms of getting the appropriate appointments ASAP.

                I am very sure that “slow to seek care” will mean either not noticing the symptoms or noticing them and being in denial and therefore not making that initial appointment.

                1. Grey Coder*

                  This is why you see those posters urging people to take up your bowel cancer screening offer, or to see a doctor if you’ve had a cough for three weeks, etc. Sometimes the “mustn’t grumble” attitude is counterproductive.

              3. perstreperous*

                It was the time between noticing something wrong and arranging an appointment with a GP, which was longer than in other countries and the difference was statistically (highly) significant.

                Why requires further research, but there are clues in other work. The UK has a statistically significant excess in winter deaths, and that has been shown to be largely down to the action of individuals (e.g. keeping windows open because of a misguided belief in “fresh air”, wearing inadequate clothing and so on). The last was down to the classic problem that, in a maritime climate which is only routinely really cold in small geographical areas, cold weather clothing would rarely be used so many people don’t bother.

                The researcher there had great trouble getting his work published because nobody wanted to hear its conclusion. No politician would dare blame their constituents for their health issues!

              4. perstreperous*

                Others guessed correctly – it was the gap between “thinking something was wrong” and “going to the GP about it”. That gap is longer in the United Kingdom than in other countries, and the difference is statistically significant.

                Why there is a difference requires more work, but there is a clue from part-related work.

                The UK has a statistically significant excess of winter deaths, and my girlfriend’s professor ran a study which was unusually wide (apart from medical experts, it included anthropologists, social workers and the rest of it). The conclusion was that most of the excess could be explained by cultural attitudes (e.g. wrong beliefs about fresh air i.e. opening windows, inadequate outside clothing, reluctance to heat houses properly). There were some “public” changes that could be made, such as heated bus shelters, but the lack of these was only a minor contributor to the whole.

                Unfortunately he had some trouble getting his work published because its conclusions were not what people wanted to hear and were certainly not what they were willing to convey. No politician would criticise their constituents, for one.

        4. Irish Teacher.*

          It makes a certain amount of sense to me. He probably wanted to maintain “normality” as long as he could. It’s one thing to take time off for a serious illness that you hope will be cured. It’s another to accept, “I’m leaving permanently because I haven’t much longer to live.” I’d guess every concession to his illness felt like one step closer to death.

          1. CityMouse*

            My former manager kept saying they were going to go spend their remaining time on the beach, but they never did. They worked up until they day went into the hospital the final time.

          2. wittyrepartee*

            Yeah, my husband’s uncle was a Japanese salaryman. As I understand, he got a terminal cancer diagnosis and just worked as long as he could. I think a lot of people do most of their socializing at work, especially in older generations. If you decide that you’re walking away from work forever, you’re also losing your major source of comfort and social support.

          3. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            Yeah, this. If it’s a choice between “keeping some semblance of normality as long as possible” and “sitting at home waiting to die”, lots of people can choose the former without being in denial.

            1. DJ Abbott*

              That’s not the only option though. A person could retire and do other things while they’re getting their medical treatments.
              To me, it seems like people who don’t develop activities outside of work are the ones who end up in this bind. If you have other activities and friends and a social life outside of work, you want to retire so you can spend more time on these things you like, even if you’re also getting medical treatments. You can’t know ahead of time how much longer you have – I knew someone with the same illness who lasted 4.5 years.

        5. Aggretsuko*

          There was one guy at my volunteer job who, I’m told, had been great for decades. When I started working with him, he was cranky and yell-y and after someone pushed back on his yelling, he got fired. We eventually found out he had gotten Lewy-Body dementia. :(

        6. Tiger Snake*

          I can. It’s a coping mechanism. Some people want people to show care for them, but others one THIS ONE piece of their life to just continue on as normal with no change.

          For some it’s a type of denial, but for others it actually gives a sense of stability and control. Even when bad things happen, work continues. You can come in and focus on your job. Your subconscious can continue to plug away at processing that, but you’re also just getting the sense of stability that knows that Things Are Normal, Everyone is Being Normal, and even when bad things happen to you the world keeps turning.

        7. StarTrek Nutcase*

          Probably someone who had nothing in his life but work. And the alternative was to sit home waiting to die. When my dad died, I didn’t take time off though I easily could have. But I knew working would at least offer 8 hrs of respite from my grief and dealing with family members (my sister had already criticized me for not crying).

        8. Princess Sparklepony*

          It’s probably because they want to be normal or seem normal and not think about dying. Work may be the constant normal thing in their life while they are dealing with dying. And at work you can be busy, at home you think about death.

          I get it, although I’d probably try to travel somewhere nice and die there…. Use up all the excess cash staying at great places and die in debt.

      3. Alicent*

        Same here, except it was college and the supervisor for our program had a brain tumor. During my final evaluation he reamed me out, told me no one liked me(!), and I was a huge female dog. We had written evaluations from all the other students we worked with and when I summoned the courage to read them they said NOTHING like that. They were very positive or had constructive criticism. I was responsible for getting all the shifts filled and making sure people did their minimum requirements for the course so I’m sure I wasn’t their favorite person, but I also wasn’t the most hated person there. It completely ruined the end of year banquet for me (where he scolded me loudly and publicly again for not finishing the really bad food I was served). If it was a regular job I would have quit.
        If your health is affecting your temperament to the point that you can no longer treat employees with basic kindness and not lash out then you shouldn’t be in a supervisory position any longer.

      4. Zona the Great*

        Yeah I dated a man who’s mother was unknowingly dying of a brain tumor she didn’t know about. She told him she didn’t love him anymore and said a lot of other really awful things that he now lives with. It really didn’t dim the pain when he discovered it was likely due to the illness. Words cut deep.

        1. CityMouse*

          Yes, I have a lot of compassion for my ex manager, but the yelling and verbal abuse wore me down severely and had an impact on my career because I took a step down to get away from that situation.

    2. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      I used to lash out a lot at work (and everywhere else) because I’m in constant pain and at the time an undiagnosed mental issue. Seconding the speak to the doctors advice. They have so many things to help.

    3. Nodramalama*

      Yeah I think we really can’t discount the medical element. Which, as you said, is not an excuse at all. But it might explain some of what’s happening, and speaking with medical professionals may help than “don’t yell at people”

      1. Observer*

        That true. But the first step is for him to realize that he actually *may not* yell at people.

        Look, ho *knows* that his medical condition is at the root of the problem, but he has apparently never even considered talking to his doctor. Instead he complains that his staff is not “moving on”, that he really wants to tell them to get over themselves but isn’t doing that because he thinks they are too coddled to handle it, and wants to know how get his staff to be ok with his behavior.

        So step #1 is to understand that actually, he needs to stop yelling. Figuring our *how* to do that is the obvious next step. But that’s not going to happen until he gets it crystal clear in his head that *his* behavior needs to change.

        1. Crooked Bird*

          Your framing it that way made me think: IS this current yelling or past yelling? I looked again and he frames it as past yelling, BUT it wasn’t an isolated incident and there’s not any reason or info given about how this has definitely stopped.

          The thing is you can’t “move on” from something unless it is actually in the past. So LW should examine himself: is this in the past? Or is it something that’s going to come up again if he gets frustrated enough? Do the employees believe it’s something that’s going to come up again if he gets frustrated enough? Is he dismissing this belief as stupid without actually holding any counter-evidence against it himself?

          Taking genuine steps to make sure it stays in the past, showing the employees that he is doing so, and making sure they understand that he is serious about this and knows he must not do it again, are absolute requirements to any expectation that they “move on.” If he doesn’t do those things–they can’t move on. They can only deal with an intermittently yelling boss.

    4. Catwhisperer*

      +1, if there’s a medical element impacting your reactions then you definitely need to address it with your doctors. Your medical history may explain why you’re short tempered, but it’s your responsibility to manage your symptoms and not take them out on the people around you.

      It may also be worth looking into medical accommodations, if there are aspects of your work/work environment that can be changed to make things easier for you and reduce the likelihood of the scenarios that resulted in you yelling at your employees.

      1. mindy*

        And just a PSA on medical issues. This can be caused by a bad reaction to a drug you are prescribed. I have an unusual reaction to antihistamines – for the first 10 days or so I’m fine. Then something happens (really minor like someone dropping a piece if paper or shutting a door too loudly) and them I’m screaming at them while crying hysterically – no warning signs, just explosion.

        Took me a couple of times to figure it out and now I refuse to take them, but it wasn’t good when it happened. Thankfully everyone at that company knew this was weird and helped me try to find the cause. Next time I had the bronchitis/ inner ear infection duo, I refused the antihistamines and had no problems.

        1. Freya*

          This. There’s one antibiotic which I used to get prescribed at least once a year which sends me rapid-cycling bipolar for as long as I’m on it. Once I figured that out, I modified my habits while taking it so that I wouldn’t affect anyone else (things like timing meetings so I’d be neither at the manic end nor at the crash end of the rapid cycle, and making sure I wasn’t driving while at either extreme), and spoke to my doctor so that we picked other antibiotics more frequently.

        2. Catwhisperer*

          I had a similar experience when figuring out which ADHD meds worked best for me. Ritalin made me incredibly angry all the time and I once snapped at my supervisor in public for a very minor issue. It’s not fun, but at the end of the day it was my responsibility to work with my doctor to find something that didn’t impact my mood so severely.

    5. Liane*

      This happened to my dad, too. He’d always been a very good natured person, slow to anger, so a more extreme change. I was in college at the time and we had a few screaming matches – rare even during the worst of my teens – until he realized what was going on, having heard of it before.
      Dad talked things out with me and with both of us understanding, we were able to shift our behaviors just a little and it seldom if ever happened again.

      The moral of my story is that it took more than just Dad recognizing why the yelling happened to improve things. Dad also had to decide he wasn’t okay with his own yelling and arguing no matter the cause, and put the work into both learning to moderate his reactions and his part of fixing our relationship.
      The big difference between my dad and you, LW, is that you don’t see your behavior going from “short” to verbally abusive as a serious problem you need *and want* to fix, along with fixing the resulting *relationship problems* as much as possible. Instead you’ve been a jerk – are perhaps still being one – to your employees and want them to “suck it up.”

      So Step 1 for you *must* be realizing that the problem ISN’T “Grrr, my employees made clear to me, the Almighty Boss, they won’t be yelled at” but “My (new, worse) temper has effed up valued relationships and will continue to do so.” You do value your employees, right? And have other people you value? (Because this isn’t just happening at work I’m sure.)
      Step 2 is doing the hard work of repairing the work relationships and learning to deal with your personality changes so things don’t go downhill again. I know, it will be hard, very hard. A Major Health Issue affected your *Brain!* Is it worth the work? It was to Dad – and me. Whether it is to you, only you can say. IMHO, the best outcome if you don’t is retirement, maybe forced, before you planned because of employee turnover.

      One final thought. Maybe a do over on the apologies might help. Including that it is stroke related if you didn’t say so before. Many people have no idea this can happen, so won’t connect the dots. Your employees may be more forgiving, and willing to help you reset the relationship.

      1. ferrina*

        you don’t see your behavior going from “short” to verbally abusive as a serious problem you need *and want* to fix

        Exactly this. The biggest problem here is the LW thinks that they are just fine and don’t need to change. In the letter, LW threw out a bunch of excuses why they don’t need to change- it’s a medical condition, it’s how they were raised, it’s because they are from a different generation. These are all things that are outside of LW’s control, so LW can say “well, can’t change my age/childhood/medical condition, therefore I’m not responsible for my actions!” LW refuses to take any accountability in their behavior.

        Kudos to your dad, though, Liane! Sounds like he’s very self-aware and did the work to make sure that he’s the person he wants to be. He sounds like a great guy!

        1. Another Kristin*

          Yeah, my dad is older than the LW and raised in probably an even more dysfunctional environment, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard him yell at anyone. And I certainly gave him lots of reasons to when I was a teen!

          It might be harder for the LW to control their temper than it used to be. It could be forgiven if they were having a really bad day and yelled once – everyone loses their temper and everyone makes mistakes. But yelling at people repeatedly and making excuses for it, that’s a choice. You can’t control your feelings but you CAN control what you do about them.

          1. RVA Cat*

            100% this.
            In addition to treating the physical health issue, OP1 should also consider therapy to unpack the way they were raised, because I’m hearing childhood trauma and a culture that normalized abuse. That 60s/70s military reference makes me immediately think of Full Metal Jacket and…that’s not good for anyone, ever.

          2. Elsewise*

            My dad is also older than LW, raised in a military family that we would definitely call it abusive today (he wouldn’t), and was a drill sergeant. He also had a TBI and PTSD. I can count on one hand the number of times he yelled at me or my siblings (and several of us were terrors!). He taught me never to accept being yelled at, whether it was a boss, a teacher, or a boyfriend.

            I very clearly remember asking him once WHY he didn’t yell at us. I had better-behaved friends whose parents yelled at them all the time. He asked me “what do they say when they’re yelling?” I had no idea of course, my friends never reported back what their parents said, just “ugh, Dad yelled at me again he’s such a jerk”. He told me that was why. When I got in trouble, I knew why he was disappointed, what he’d expected from me instead, and what I could do to fix it. When my friends got in trouble, all they heard was “Dad’s mad at me”.

            Managing employees isn’t parenting, and it shouldn’t be. But what my dad taught me is that if screaming and hollering is your only way of getting your point across, you’ve already lost their attention, not to mention their respect. You can, and should, do better.

      2. Observer*

        The big difference between my dad and you, LW, is that you don’t see your behavior going from “short” to verbally abusive as a serious problem you need *and want* to fix, along with fixing the resulting *relationship problems* as much as possible. Instead you’ve been a jerk – are perhaps still being one – to your employees and want them to “suck it up.”

        This is SO much on the money. It encapsulates the situation completely.

        LW, read this whole piece multiple times. Realize that @Liane’s dad could not have been much younger than you, as it might help you get past some of your excuse making.

      3. Ray B Purchase*

        If LW1 does seek some help with this and is committed to moving past it, I agree this would be a good argument for actually divulging that medical information to their team to the tune of something like…
        “I’ve realized that because of my strokes I’m having a hard time gauging my behavior and managing frustration at work and I’ve treated y’all badly because of that. It was not okay and I want to own up to how much I’ve mishandled things and let you know I’m working on it and I appreciate that you’ve all helped me realized how wrong I was.”

        And then you actually have to work on it.

    6. Totally Minnie*

      I’m going to say something the LW doesn’t want to hear.

      If working with your medical team doesn’t result in finding ways to prevent yourself from yelling at your staff, you need to step down as a manager and pursue either individual contributor work or early retirement for medical reasons.

      The ADA requires companies to work with their staff to determine reasonable accommodations for their medical situations, but “I am allowed to abuse my staff” is not a reasonable accommodation. Your options are to work with your medical team to find a way to stop abusing your staff or to take yourself out of the situations where the abuse is happening.

      I sympathize with your medical situation. I know it’s awful and difficult to experience these kinds of brain changes after a medical event. But you cannot use your medical situation to get out of trouble for abusing people in the workplace.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        early retirement for medical reasons

        This is part of why I’m retiring from the workplace. I know as my illness progresses Im not going to be able to keep such a good hold on my brain. I cannot expose my staff to my unfettered anger.

        4. Totally Minnie*

          I’m sorry to hear that your health has reached that point, but I’m glad you’re able to make this decision about what’s best for you and your colleagues.

        5. Escapee from Corporate Management*

          I’m sorry to hear that. I hope even in retirement that you’ll continue to share your insightful comments.

          1. Fledge Mulholland*

            I second this. You always have such wonderful insights. Wishing you a peaceful and healthy-as-possible retirement.

        6. Ray B Purchase*

          I’m sorry to hear this is happening to you. You’re honorable to bow out before you cause harm to others. I hope they get to remember you as a kind and reasonable boss.

    7. Falling Diphthong*

      I recommend seeing your doctors: neurologist and a psycho-neurologist to begin with.

      Seconding. OP, consider that the strokes have rewired your brain, and it is now relying on some new shortcuts. It may be possible to convince it to take some other paths and not snap into rage, or to keep you in check while you take apart the rage. But your evidence suggests that this is not an unpleasant temporary side effect that will go away if you give it time. Plan A to deal with the changes to your mind did not work, and so you need to incorporate that data and find a Plan B: typing that as an engineering insight, from someone whose health really got battered the last few years.

    8. RIP Pillowfort*

      Yeah if they hadn’t mentioned the strokes I would be laying into them more. I work with engineers, I’ve been in the workforce for 20 years, and one of the things I will not abide is being yelled at. I don’t blame the employees for not letting it go. I wouldn’t let that behavior slide either and I’ve had engineers yell at me. It absolutely makes me think that you’re over emotional and a problem when your response is to yell. But I also know what a number strokes can do on your brain and how it can impact your ability to regulate emotions, function, etc.

      So this is a hard one. If OP is willing to go to their doctors and be honest about the problems? There’s a way to salvage this through getting the help they need. If they’re just going to ignore how their behavior affects others and act like they’re not being disrespectful to the employees? There’s not much we can recommend to them because they won’t change their behavior.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, OP really needs to take a hard look at the assertions “I am black and white with no emotions” and “my demeanor is short” side by side. People with no emotions don’t yell over non-emergencies, my dude!

        2. MigraineMonth*

          There are a remarkable number of men who seem to sincerely believe that anger is not an emotion. Also, that if they express anger when what they’re actually feeling is hurt, sadness, insecurity, loneliness, embarrassment, etc, that’s proof they don’t have any emotions.

          If someone throws yelling temper tantrums, *they are emotional* and worse, they have the emotional regulation of a child.

        3. RIP Pillowfort*

          Man, I didn’t bring it up but I joke sometimes that people only think engineers are stoic and unemotional.

          Reality is most engineers I have ever worked with care very deeply about their work and get extremely passionate about ensuring it’s done right. I’d have concerns if someone didn’t get emotional about not being listened to or told they have to go back to square one. They have to outlet the emotions appropriately but it’s super normal to be mad/frustrated about things!

          Heck I’ve had very strong emotions about when we had a difficult project get completed! I’ve teared up in my office with mixed emotions about it being done!

          1. MigraineMonth*

            I’m a software developer, and while many of us aren’t particularly emotionally intelligent, we’re all emotional people.

            If you doubt this, just ask about 1-based indices.

      2. ferrina*

        I also had a knee-jerk reaction to “I’m an engineer.” I’ve worked with plenty of engineers, and most of them don’t yell or berate people. LW is throwing engineers under the bus because of the stigma that “engineers don’t have people skills.” LW is equating being awkward and being abusive! Sure I won’t let my engineers into a sensitive client meeting, but that’s often because they are trying to fix a tangible problem instead of soothing emotions- they are still trying to help, just in their own way! Yelling doesn’t help, and berating people doesn’t help. Being a jackass doesn’t help. And blaming a whole group for one individual’s bad actions doesn’t help- it’s just being an ass.

        1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Same, though my reaction was a bit different. I’ve met and been on dates with many engineers. A subset of them are completely insufferable. My best / funniest example is one of them arguing with me via a dating app that as an engineer who went to [well-regarded engineering program], he knew more about human attraction than me. I was in the middle of an MA in social psychology at the time. No, this fact did not change his mind. Now, it was a ploy to convince me to meet him, even though he was well beyond my age cutoff (and had no photo). It did not work. The LW reminded me of this dude.

          Fortunately, this is only a subset of engineers. I’ve met many who are lovely.

          1. Observer*

            Fortunately, this is only a subset of engineers.

            I suspect that this is actually a subset of humanity.

            Yes, this guy sounds like a jerk, and he used being an engineer as his prop. But have you ever heard how some lawyers, and doctors talk? Or some members of almost every highly skilled profession with fairly high educational requirements?

            The bottom line is that being an engineer (or any other high skilled professional) is neither and excuse nor even a reasonable reason to be an insufferable jerk.

            1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

              That’s a fair point. It is certainly not exclusive to engineers! This particular flavour may or may not be somewhat more common among engineers than people in other professions. For the people I’ve met, it has been, but those are only the people I’ve met.

        2. KatJNZ*

          I’m a woman, and I’ve been an engineer for more than 20 years. I agree that engineers are humans like anyone! I’ve also been yelled at more times than I can count by older male engineers who don’t consider anger to be an emotion. Being an engineer doesn’t cause shouting, neither does growing up in a military household (as did I).

          The medical issues may be one reason why this person is yelling, but it’s still not an acceptable work behaviour and they need to find a way to stop doing it. Period.

        3. Ellie*

          Yes I had a knee jerk reaction to that too. I’m an engineer, I have worked with engineers for almost 30 years. I have been yelled at on a small handful of occasions at work, mostly by managers. Awkwardness and aggression are two very different things.

      3. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        One interesting thing is that the LW says they’re black and white with no emotions, but that clearly isn’t the case. Anger and frustration *are* emotions. It’s just that people (mostly men) in this culture are socialized to forget that. And these emotions are obviously affecting the LW’s behaviour.

        And yeah, I wouldn’t just let go of the yelling, either. Especially since it seems like it wasn’t a one-off. And I’m guessing the apology had an “I’m sorry you’re so sensitive” vibe.

        1. sacados*

          Yes that raised my eyebrows too. Yelling is the **ultimate example** of bringing inappropriate emotions into the workplace.

        2. Ellie*

          I think the LW has some chance to correct this though – they recognise that an element of this is medical, and that another element is in how they were raised. But this is not a problem they are likely to solve on their own. They need therapy, and an honest medical assessment.

          To OP though, all I can say is that if you don’t yell at anyone for long enough, people will forgive you. But it takes a lot of time to win back trust. You can’t just say you’re sorry and expect people to be over it when you prefer they’d be. You have to make a commitment not to yell again.

    9. learnedthehardway*

      For those suffering with this sort of instant rage, it may help to reprogram yourself a bit with a technique called SNAP – I can’t remember what the acronym stands for, but they use it in schools to help kids get a handle on their temper / reactions. It basically replaces the instinctive / pre-rational response by “programming” in another action. That gives the kids’ rational minds a chance to grapple with the problem, before they react. It’s particularly effective for dealing with executive function deficits.

    10. DivergentStitches*

      OP #1 doesn’t have any remorse for having yelled at his employees. Yeah the stroke contributed to his being quick to anger but the rest of his letter leads me to believe that there’s no accountability on his side for being rude or mean.

      I think it might be worth disclosing the stroke to his employees if he hasn’t already, so they’re aware that his temper will be short.

      HOWEVER I think he should maybe consider retiring if he can’t be civil to people and isn’t able to understand why they’re upset after he yelled at them.

    11. Helen Waite*

      Ohhhhhhhh! This explains so much about the boss on my first job!

      He had severe health problems, and died about a year after I left the job. Because it was my first job, I thought getting yelled at was normal and I had to get used to it.

    12. Jessica*

      I mean, also, if you think you have no emotions, what that means is your emotional intelligence is so low that you’re unaware of your own emotions and they’re out of control (it’s sort of tragically hilarious that someone who just described having all of these intense emotions—losing their temper and screaming at their employees, being consumed with frustration and resentment when their employees don’t automatically comply with exactly the reaction the OP wants them to have—is claiming they have no emotions).

      It’s going to be hard to overcome 60 years of such intense refusal to engage in normal development and self-awareness, but that doesn’t resolve him of the responsibility to start the work. And he really should consider letting someone else run his team until he’s at least developed enough basic awareness of his own emotional state to not abuse his employees and use them as punching bags.

    13. I Have RBF*

      I had a stroke in my thirties, and my temper had a really, really short fuse for quite a while. It has taken 30 years to temper it back down. In the interim, I behaved in ways I’m not proud of – yelling at people for minor stuff, etc.

      I would recommend investing in anger management, at least books and meditations. The anger that just bubbles up over small things is just… weird. It doesn’t make sense, but learning calming techniques helps.

  3. CityMouse*

    I think thr first two letters are pretty similar that both LWs are experiencing pretty standard consequences for their actions and both of them, unless they reverse course on their behavior, will likely get fired for it, probably the second LW more immediately than the first.

    When you’ve messed up spectacularly, either by acting abusively or deceptively, the only way to even potentially get past it, is to genuinely put a stop to to the behavior and sustain that for a while. Once that reputation is gained and once that relationship is broken, it’s very hard to erase and there’s not an easy way to make it go away. You might never get away from that reputation, especially not when it’s a first impression at a job or with new employees.

    1. NotBatman*

      Yes. I made a similar mistake to LW2 — I forgot to lock a room full of valuable equipment. When my manager sent an email asking about it, I wrote back and said roughly, “I apologize, because I became distracted helping a client and failed to lock the door, which I recognize is unacceptable. I’m going to put the key on my lanyard in an effort to never forget to use it again, and I’m glad that in this case nothing was stolen because I know it could have been.” She mentioned how much she appreciated that email in a later review, because I took ownership and showed I was trying to change.

      1. DireRaven*

        In my experience, as soon as the words “because I became distracted helping a client” were read/heard, nothing further would be read/heard and I’d get an angry “I don’t want your [bleeping] excuses!”

        1. Edwina*

          I’m sorry you had managers who would react that way! I had the same internal reaction that you were describing, but when I read the rest of the sentence (“which I recognize is unacceptable”), I calmed down and took in the rest of the message.

          I think it would have been harder to keep listening if this has been a verbal conversation, but I hope I would pay attention to the time and also wait until the end of what the employee was saying to pass judgement.

          So maybe the words could be rearranged to avoid that reaction, but also, the manager can decide to not be reactive and wait until they’ve heard everything the employee was saying.

        2. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          Well, managers should be better at managing their emotions than that. Especially in response to an email, it’s pretty easy not to spout off from one’s initial reaction.

        3. Typity*

          Oh, man, been there: “I demand an explanation!”

          “Well, there was a client and we…”

          “I don’t want to hear excuses!”

          As though any explanation at all is an “excuse” and people are screwing up — just for giggles, I guess?

        4. Moira's Rose's Garden*

          That’s unfortunate. Not only is it unprofessional and somewhere between unkind -> abusive, but it makes reducing future errors nearly impossible.

          From an error prevention/QI&AQ/compliance standpoint, people need to be able to bring mistakes forward to leadership without (undue) hesitation or fudging the facts. If people are scared of consequences, the won’t (or can’t afford to) be forthright and honest. And the risks of mistakes that cause serious loss or harm either never changes or more often, worsens over time.

          True mistakes shouldn’t be treated as performance issue the overwhelming majority of the time. They’re opportunities to improve processes and reduce risk exposures, when management handles them correctly.

        5. Bitte Meddler*

          When I apologize and offer an explanation for why my error happened, the explanation is meant as a post-mortem analysis: “How/why did this happen, and how can I ensure it doesn’t happen again?”

          If I don’t know the root cause of something, I can’t find a solution for it.

          I’d rather have someone offer an explanation, which shows that they have put some thought into it, than offer a generic, “I’m sorry. I messed up and it won’t happen again,” which can come of as insincere.

        1. NotBatman*

          Yes! Or else attach the building key to their car keys or phone. Make it physically impossible to go home without it.

        2. dawbs*

          A concrete step is key.

          In every safety class I’ve taken (I’ve taken a few! Making sure labs are safe is part of my job) it’s been drilled into me that “just try harder” is not a safety excuse.

          I mean, when we had a (dangerous, now removed!) freight elevator at one of my jobs, there were several steps to operating it–but the most important one wasn’t making it a rule to”check all the shafts on all floors before operating”–it was making it so you COULD NOT operate the thing without checking all the shafts on all floors.

          Lockouts are important. I’ve struggled at some jobs because of my ADHD, and currently, because I am totally capable of leaving my keys in the door, they’re attched to me in such a way that it takes a great deal of effort for me to screw up that way. Because I’ve done it to much.

      3. ferrina*

        Excellent response.
        The way to handle a mistake at work is to:
        1. Take responsibility and acknowledge the mistake.
        2. Show understanding of how it happened.
        3. Take steps to ensure it doesn’t happen again.
        4. Acknowledge that your mistakes impact your manager and the people around you. This doesn’t need to be a major action- it can be as simple as just acknowledging that your manager is talking to you because they need to (due to the nature of your mistake) and that your manager might feel nervous about you making a mistake again until there’s been time for this to go behind them. I’ve had people say “well I know there’s a mistake and I did everything, so why are you talking to me?” Because I, as the manager, am not you, and I wouldn’t be doing my job if I didn’t ensure that you are taking this seriously.

        NotBatman, sounds like you did a great job handling that!

        1. Tiger Snake*

          I was about to break down all the ways that was a wonderful apology, but I see you’ve already done it. It is very impressive on NotBatman’s part.

      4. The Cosmic Avenger*

        A lanyard is a good solution for LW#2. I had my swipe card on a retractable string lanyard, but when that snapped I found one with a very thin metal chain that lasted longer than my need for office access! LW #2 can lock the doors with the keys attached to the retractable chain around their neck or on their belt, and they definitely will never forget them!

    2. megaboo*

      For the person working in the pharmacy, why in the world would they personally pay for a client’s fees. They shouldn’t be offering to cover any fees, whether they told the client or not. That’s a bad precedent to start.

  4. Sleeplesskj*

    #1: I’m your contemporary and resent you blaming your attitude on your age and generation. Your inflexibility, lack of empathy and unwillingness to adapt/learn is on you.

    1. pcake*

      I felt the same. I’m 67, but I don’t yell at people. If I’m frustrated, I take a break – read for a few minutes, take a short walk, just relax and breathe. It’s not fair to yell at people, and of course, they won’t trust you not to yell at them again. People ALL make mistakes or misunderstand something sometimes; they don’t deserve to be penalized imo.

      Btw, I’ve seen 30 year old managers who yell at employees in public. It’s not an age-restricted misbehavior.

    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      And OP#1 says they’re a “no emotions” type of person. I hate to break it to them, but anger is an emotion!

      OP1, develop a few strategies for breaking yourself out of a rage spiral when you feel like you’re getting ready to yell. Take a quick walk around the block, shut yourself into a room and swear (not loudly enough that everyone can hear) take it out on a stress toy – whatever works. Your goal is to redirect your brain out of focusing on what’s making you angry.
      Alternatively, go to a rage room once a month and smash things up – do whatever works for you.

      1. duinath*

        Yep, that stood out to me as well, anger is absolutely an emotion, and if you’re fully yelling in the workplace your emotions are out of control.

      2. D*

        And as for expressing emotions….a lot of people get in this “No emotions are okay but anger” or bottling up all emotions and anger is the one that demands attention more, but…Disappointment is an emotion, OP1.

        And disappointment from someone you respect is a LOT more motivating that anger from someone you don’t.

          2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            The point is that women are stereotyped as being overly emotional, to our detriment, and men perceive themselves as being objective and unemotional. (Not All Men, obviously. Patriarchal society.) Part of this is exactly what we see here, that anger is not characterized as an emotion.

          3. Smurfette*

            I’ve had two out-of-control yelling bosses and they were both women =(

            They were both married to really sweet men who divorced them after a few years – so I guess the yelling was a thing at home as well.

            Oh yes, and they were friends moved in the same professional circles, and each enabled and justified the other’s awful behaviour.

            What a mess.

          4. Irish Teacher.*

            I think it’s more that out-of-control female yelling bosses are more likely to excuse it with “oh, I can’t help it. I’m just so sensitive and emotional” so commenting that they sound emotional would be less likely to bother them whereas out-of-control male yelling bosses are more likely to excuse it with “I’m just so rational and unemotional that I didn’t realise it would hurt people’s feelings. I forget that other people need things to be said ‘nicely’ because I just focus on the facts and don’t care what tone they are said in.”

            This tends not to be true at all and they are likely to yell at anybody whose tone they feel isn’t respectful enough but it does mean they’d be likely to take offence at a suggestion they sounded “emotional”.

            Obviously, these are generalisations. There are women who yell at people and claim it’s because they are too rational to consider their tone (there is a female celebrity doctor in Ireland who, while as far as I know, she doesn’t yell, does say very offensive – and medically harmful – things, like implying that people would recover from depression if they lost weight and she justifies it with the whole “just not good at sugarcoating”) and I’m sure there are men who justify it with “I’m just so passionate and emotional,” but…well, our society’s gender stereotypes mean that detached and unemotional is more likely to be seen as the desirable way for a man to behave that a woman, so “you seem very emotional” is more likely to be seen as an insult when it’s a man yelling than when it’s a woman.

        3. Qwerty*

          Been there, done that! It actually worked really well multiple times (but failed once while the CTO’s response was to yell some more). It kinda shocked them and there would be an awkward pause as they either (1) started to respond but cut themselves off as the next word they yelled or (2) tried to come up with an counterargument but realized anger is an emotion.

          Usually I had triggered this by suggesting we regroup and meet later when they are less emotional. After a couple weeks I had trained the executives at this client to respond “I need a few minutes to process and look into this, can we pick this up at X?” when they weren’t happy with the info they were hearing.

        5. froodle*

          A sibling had a yeller for a boss at one job.

          After one particularly egregious screeching fit from this spittle flecked buffoon of a man, Sibling stood up (Sibling is a tall man so loomed over Auld Yeller) and very gently, solemnly, told him “You seem really emotional right now. Do you want to take a break and we can come back to it when you’re not feeling so upset?”

          Buffoon absolutely hit the roof, red faced, sputtering, shrieking incoherently with the force of his thwarted rage.

          Sibling got sent home for the day, but there was enough widespread gossip and thinly veiled mockery in the workplace that Auld Yeller didn’t target him for that nonsense again

          (didn’t put as too to Auld Yeller entirely, of course; he just victimized easier targets, as such rancid bullies will)

      4. I&I*

        Just so. And discomfort with your employees not ‘moving on’ is an emotion too, OP1. This entire situation is about your feelings.

        Which is fine in itself! People have feelings, you’re a person. We all have ’em. But they’re *your* feelings, which means managing them is your job, not your employees’.

        I’m going to challenge you to look at your framing differently. In describing your background, you aren’t describing low-emotion settings so much as settings where there’s a very strong hierarchy.

        In hierarchies, the ones at the top get to define what’s right and wrong – not because they have a special insight, but simply because the boss says what goes. If the boss has emotions, those emotions feel justified, right? Because everyone’s emotions always feel justified to them. So if a higher-up dumps their emotions down the chain, they can frame it to themselves as being clear on what’s right and wrong.

        The lower-downs never, ever experience it this way. Not in any setting or generation. They just aren’t allowed to tell the higher-ups that.

        What you’re seeing isn’t a generational or cultural divide. You’re just not in the army and your employees don’t have to say ‘Sir yes sir!’ however you act.

        (And honestly, if an army officer took his feelings out on his subordinates he’d be a bad officer. At least you’re in a situation where your employees can’t decide, ‘You know, I’m not gonna warn him about that sniper I just spotted.’)

        So try it this way: feelings are data, and you’ve given your employees data about you. I get the feeling that you’re used to very manly-coded ways of thinking, so I’ll put it in those terms: you’ve told them that you aren’t in control of your own behaviour, you expect more respect than you give, and that you aren’t reliable.

        The fact that you’re clearly annoyed they’re still wary also suggests your apology was it was no guarantee any of this would change. You’re still expecting them to do what they’re told because you say so, down to visible feelings. That’s not a very sincere apology, and they’ll have noticed that too.

        Expecting them to just ‘move on’ like they didn’t notice any of this is asking them to ignore the data. You want smart employees; smart people don’t ignore the facts, and the fact is you can’t ‘move on’ from something that isn’t changing. What they see is a situation where the boss can’t manage his feelings, and his plan for dealing with that is to give a verbal apology, expect it to create a complete reset, and do nothing about his emotional skills so that it’s pretty certain he’ll yell again. In other words, they have solid evidence that you think yelling is – maybe not okay, but a tolerable aspect of working life as long as it’s followed with the right form of words.

        It isn’t.

        What you need to do is find ways to stop yelling and treat them with genuine respect. When you do that they’ll have new evidence and change their opinions of you accordingly.

        If that’s medically impossible for you because of your strokes, you need to be realistic about that and change the command structure so you’re not in a position to let your emotional dysregulation affect the workplace. That’s hard, I know, but again, look at it factually: if you can’t do something, you can’t, and it’s more respectable to work with what you’ve got.

        1. Little Blue*

          This is really, really well put and I sincerely hope OP is open to this feedback. Thanks for this comment.

            1. MyStars*

              +1, good analysis well presented. OP, if it is the strokes or other medically induced issues, you may also need to consider retirement.

          2. Observer*

            This is really, really well put and I sincerely hope OP is open to this feedback.

            Yes. OP, you’ve gotten some really, really good feedback. Please take it on board. What you are doing is not OK and it is going to come back to bite you. In fact, it seems like it may already be harming you.

        2. bamcheeks*

          I really like your point about hierarchical organisations only validating the emotions of the senior people, to the extent that those people can frame them as non-emotions. Such a good way of thinking about how hierarchies function.

        3. sb51*

          Also, as a fellow engineer who likes things factual and straightforward, but also grew up in one of those really really indirect-communication parts of the country: you may be running into one limit of the golden rule — “do unto others as you would have others do unto you” doesn’t work as stated if two people have very different communication styles. We see this in the comments here all the time — the people who find small-talk painfully awkward vs the people who feel hurt and isolated if they don’t have a little personal interaction with their coworkers — when people from one group treat the other “the way they’d want to be treated” they upset or at least inconvenience the other.

          If you find yourself saying that you’d prefer if they were blunt to the point of rudeness back at you, as long as the communication was clear, and are frustrated that they’re tiptoeing around stuff, thinking about it as being like a language mismatch can help. You’re talking to them in Spanish, they’re replying in French, and neither of you are understanding each other, and then you get frustrated and snap at them. (The snapping is never OK; I’m talking about ways to avoid getting so upset that you are inclined to snap.)

          I don’t really think it’s a generational difference, except that advances in our understanding of psychology have helped them feel empowered to say no to upsetting interactions, which you didn’t have the advantage of when you were young. But, if it helps you to think of it as “translating from Youth-Talk” to be able to take a step back and understand what they’re saying, and help them communicate with you in a way that works for everyone, maybe that’s a decent framing inside your head. (Not out loud.)

          1. KateM*

            It seems like the employees are pretty *bluntly* holding it against the OP but OP doesn’t like it anyway.

          2. I&I*

            Though if OP1 yells, that’s a pretty good way to discourage employees from being frank with you. It’s hard to straight-talk someone you’re scared of.

        7. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          LW, would it be OK if your employees yelled at you when they were frustrated? Would you let it go immediately if they did?

      5. MK*

        Also, I get the impression that this whole letter is about their feelings. They say they want them employees to knock it off and get the job done; what are they supposed to knock off, and is the job not getting done? If the employees are being rude and not working, fair enough, BUT I very much suspect that they simply treat him with civility instead of friendliness and doing their job without much. enthusiasm. Which is a natural consequence of his actions, and maybe he needs to get over it.

        1. Allonge*

          This is what I wanted to say – LW1, can you define what specifically you would like to see change in the way your team behaves / acts? Not doing the job is not ok. Being a bit jumpy? Part of the deal. Where is it?

          Also, LW1, I am sorry that you were raised in this manner and that despite severe medical issues and your age you still need to be working. None of that is a good excuse for yelling at other people but it sucks all the same.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          It’s very possible that in addition to a cool demeanor, his employees are also pushing back against his behavior in a professional manner, for example by reporting him to HR, telling him they won’t put up with his yelling, approaching him as a group, openly looking for transfer opportunities, requesting intervention from higher-up management, etc. If things got this bad at my workplace, I’d probably request a union representative join me for 1-0n-1’s with my boss.

          All of these are–as I said–perfectly professional responses in an attempt to hold him accountable and prevent further abuse, but I would guess OP would see them as undermining his authority.

      6. Irish Teacher.*

        Yes, from what they have said, it sounds like they are an overly-emotional person, not a no-emotion person. And honestly, this is a pattern I’ve noticed. The people who are most inclined to insist that they “don’t understand emotions” and that they “focus on the facts” and “don’t get offended easily” tend to be the most easily offended, to the point that they have to reframe any mistakes they’ve made as “the other person being offended” because it would hurt their feelings to have to admit that the other person is simply correcting a factual inaccuracy they made.

        I’m guessing the LW was raised to be ashamed about “showing emotion” and wants to sweep their emotional reactions under the carpet and forget they ever happened (which is understandable, especially if their reactions were caused by the strokes and they were not easily frustrated and angered before those) so it upsets them that their employees aren’t agreeing to pretend it never happened.

        But they do need to acknowledge that they are the one who is being emotional here. Otherwise any apology is going to come across as patronising and as “oh, I’m sorry I hurt your little feelings. I’m just so rational and unemotional that I don’t forget other people need things sugarcoated.” Which…would bother me more than the initial yelling as it is manipulative. They can’t really expect their employees to “move on” if they still don’t seem to understand what they have done. Apart from anything else, until they acknowledge that they are over-reacting emotionally and need to learn to be less emotional at work, the outbursts are likely to happen again.

        I don’t mean to be too harsh on the LW. My guess is that this is a mixture of the effects of the strokes and possibly an upbringing where they were taught to feel embarrassed about showing emotion and to deny their emotions.

        1. Allonge*

          Oh, I like this way of looking at it (I would also be more upset, especially longer term, by the stance on emotions than by the yelling).

        2. Baunilha*

          My dad used to be like that: he would yell and say unkind things, and then complain that other people were just being sensitive and needed a thicker skin.
          It got a lot better after he retired, but therapy also helped.

        3. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Agreed. Especially since it sounds like the yelling wasn’t a one-off. Like I&I said, the employees are observing what’s going on, taking in information about how the LW acts, and changing their behaviour in response.

      7. hbc*

        Yep, absolutely lying to themselves about emotions. “My demeanor is short” is just worming around admitting anger.

        As an engineer and a manager, I can say that there’s nothing logical about ignoring how your actions impact your employees. One of the best managers I ever saw was someone with a Sheldon Cooper-like affect but treated managing like another thing that could be optimized. He would do things like let someone “waste” an hour or two on an idea that he knew wouldn’t have a tangible benefit because it was worth it to not shoot it down and give them a sense of ownership. And if they did something that bugged him, he would find somewhere private to pull his hair out and settle down.

        1. sb51*

          Yes – if people are widgets to you, you can still understand them and treat them properly. (Just…don’t tell them what you’re doing.)

        2. Great Frogs of Literature*

          And conversely, I’ve seen a manager who in “just wanting to focus on the work getting done” failed to see the ways in which his own behavior made people frustrated and resentful and less willing to work with him — and MUCH less willing to go out of their way if they saw him pursuing something that they already knew wouldn’t work. (And he was relatively new to the org, so he didn’t have strong prior relationships to lean on, and there was a lot of contextual information that other people had that might have made his job easier, had people been motivated to put time and effort into sharing it.)

          He was so focused on short-term goals, or checking off short-term goals, that he didn’t realize how damaging it was to hound people to know why their deliverables weren’t finished the day after several well-liked colleagues had been laid off, or repeatedly ping someone for status updates when they’d stepped offline for a few hours due to a sudden overwhelming migraine. And these weren’t even real deadlines — they were interim deadlines, and the project overall would survive if they slipped a few days.

          It turns out that many people work less efficiently on your projects when they’re really pissed at you.

        3. Spooz*

          That’s what I ended up doing in my freelance career. I mentally added “build interpersonal relationships” to my job description and regarded going to the pub with the team or asking how people were doing that day as simply another work related task that I could mentally grade myself on. Highly recommend if you are a goal-oriented INTJ type person! Make the “pointless fluff” into a goal you can excel at.

      8. Snow Bunny*

        Yeah, sadly, what I think they meant was “I have no ability to connect with the emotions of others i.e. I have no empathy”. They feel that they should have the right to express their emotions regardless of how inappropriate, and to not have to worry about the consequences.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      It’s definitely not some new fad, for people to object to being yelled at and spoken to in anger. Having a visceral reaction to that, is as old as being human. I wonder if tolerating abusiveness has been the situation of OP’s microclimate, rather than the condition of their whole generation. They mention the military and engineering, and while I can’t speak to either, it seems likely at least their family and their company (or their corner of the industry) might have been inclined to teach OP more about tolerating the abuse of superiors, rather than self-control around those you’re responsible for, but like all bad plans it will eventually be abandoned in favour of healthy systems. Another thing to consider is whether people got more sensitive after OP’s strokes (if OP is right about that being a contributing factor),… or OP’s ascent to management. If OP is really, truly lacking in fundamental skills to engage with other humans, they need to speak to a professional, either about their health, or about anger management.

      1. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

        “If OP is really, truly lacking in fundamental skills to engage with other humans, they need to speak to a professional, either about their health, or about anger management.”

        I vote for speaking to a professional (or professionals) about both. Needing professional help is nothing to be ashamed of, OP, >t sounds like you could really benefit from that, and your relationship with your employees could benefit as well.

        You didn’t say how many incidents of yelling there have been, but I’m going to assume it’s more than one, based on the way you describe your employees’ behavior. If you want to understand why they can’t “get past” the yelling, you need to look at things from their point of view. People aren’t robots, and when you lose your temper with them even once, much less repeatedly, it’s a perfectly normal for them to feel uncomfortable around you. It’s possible, even likely, that they’re all walking on eggshells right now, afraid of doing something else that might set you off and feeling unsure what thst might be.

        If you want them to “get past” this, you need to: 1) learn how to handle your emotions better, so that you can deal with your stress without blowing up and yelling at your reports, and 2) model that behavior consistently for a while, until they feel like they can trust you again. Because *trust* is what this is all about. You have lost the trust of your employees, and it’s on you to earn their trust back by showing them you can be trusted not to lose your temper and lash out.

        This process can take a while, so you may have to be patient. A *sincere* apology can be helpful, but as you have seen, apologizing can only go so far. You have to back it up with behavioral changes. If you need professional help to make those changes, then by all means, get it. The therapist you work with can help you figure out the details, including whether and how to make amends eith your reports. In the meantime, I suggest you try to put yourself in the shoes of your employees and do your best to imagine how this situation feels to *them*. However uncomfortable you feel about all this, I can just about guarantee they feel a lot worse.

        Best wishes in your endeavors to remedy this situation!

      2. ScruffyInternHerder*

        My career is engineering adjacent…and at least the subset of engineering I deal with on the daily is the definition of “toxic masculinity”. Its at least as bad in the under age 30 engineers as it is the older generations. I’ve never met a group that dislike everyone who isn’t white/male/straight/has more perceived power than them. I have to remind them near daily that they will not talk down to me as I am not below them in the org chart, and they will not jack up my project because they dislike answering to me.

        Now add in sudden onset neurological issues? Its not great.

    4. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

      The generational excuse is bunk, I agree.

      But having witnessed previously mild-mannered people survive strokes, I agree that they can really do a number on people and make some aspects of emotional management incredibly difficult; I actually have a lot of sympathy for OP there.

      1. Box of Rain*

        Yes, but not caused by age. Being inflexible and unwilling to learn new behavior is not age-specific.

        1. Pescadero*

          It kind of is.

          There is generally a direct correlation between age and willingness to change behavior – likely related to brain plasticity.

    6. Liane*

      Same, just a couple months shy of 62. Granted, I can be quick tempered, but I still work on it.

      I told my Dad’s story above. He was roughly our age when he had his stroke. He was also a WWII US Army vet. So certainly had some of the Manly Men and hierarchical ‘tudes of the time, even though he – unlike LW – was always a well liked people person. He owned his own business and never treated his employees like that. No, not even the rare ones that were problems.

    7. Cat Tree*

      It’s also not an engineer thing. I’m an engineer and have definitely worked with engineers who fit the stereotype of being inflexible, but it doesn’t have to be that way and it doesn’t make you better at engineering. In fact, it makes you worse at it.

      I work on a high-performing team of engineers who aren’t boorish and unwilling to consider other perspectives. That stereotype needs to end, and engineers need to stop using it as an excuse for poor job performance.

      1. Ann Onymous*

        I’m also an engineer and this bothered me too. Some engineers fit this stereotype, but so do some people in other professions and there are plenty of engineers who don’t fit this. Collaboration is a key part of many engineering jobs, and the people who do it best are the ones who are both emotionally intelligent and technically skilled.

      2. EngineeringFun*

        I would argue it WAS engineer culture 20 years ago. At my new company some of the old timers are having trouble adapting to the new “kinder” culture. The main cause is they don’t know how to manage project timelines effectively so they just start yelling.

        1. Ann Onymous*

          Engineer culture was also much less diverse (it’s still overwhelmingly white and male, but at least moving in the right direction). At the end of the day, engineering is about problem solving, and the more diversity of perspectives you can bring to a team, the better the team is at solving problems.

      3. fhqwhgads*

        Yeah, I think a lot of people are aware of Engineer stereotypes, and Military stereotypes, know they have a history of both being an Engineer and a military background and thus decide “ah! I identify with this, ergo it’s is inevitable”. In reality, yeah you don’t want to live up to the bad stereotypes of groups you’re in. The pattern is not a goal, nor is it inherent to your being.

    8. Contemporary of #1*

      #1 As your contemporary the irony of expecting other people to get over it while you do not is not unusual. However, everyone our age does not act as you do. I am comfortable stating that you probably do not respect those of us who do not act like you. Again, we are contemporaries. I hope a lot of our contemporaries post today, pointing out that your behavior is not considered acceptable by everyone our age. There are suggestions as to how to change your perspective. Take that advice.

      Age is an excuse. Your ministrokes grant you only so much grace. The problem is you are not sorry. I report to someone who yells. One specific instance, involves being told I should have known better in a very condescending tone about a very reasonable request. There have been others, but that is the one I find most offensive. This person has had the audacity to tell me that they’v accepted that they and I are not close, as though I owe them a warm relationship. In other words, why am I not over it yet? We are not close and never will be. Disrespect is not something I am obligated to get over. I am civil and professional that is the job requirement. I do not like this person and never will. If I were to treat this person as they have treated me, I would be fired.

      So what do I do? I engage with my younger coworkers assuring them that this behavior is neither normal, acceptable or professional. I tell them everyone the age of our boss does not act like the boss. I encourage my younger coworkers to move to other employment because “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change.” I encourage them to seek resources (like this website) so they can know what professional and acceptable norms are. Thankfully, they listen.

      The lack of accountability in this letter is infuriating and stereotypically on brand. The commentariat and Alison are very kind.

    9. Piperpony*

      Yeah, I didn’t really understand the age thing either. It came off as “I’m older than my coworkers so they need to show respect and get over it.” Like she automatically gets a pass for any behavior due to being older.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I took it as meaning, “I grew up in an era when it was normal or at least accepted for people to yell at those beneath them in the hierarchy, so I don’t understand why my employees find it unacceptable.”

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          Not saying that was normal in the 60s and 70s but it may have been normal in the LW’s home and a lot of people as they get older assume that issues specific to their family were actually the norms of their era, especially if their friends were from similar backgrounds. And schools back then were way more likely to tolerate teachers yelling at or even physically punishing students.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          Interesting. I took it as meaning “I have been this way for too long to have any intention/desire to change, and that should be OK because time.”
          Which I don’t agree with, but that’s how it read to me.

    10. Productivity Pigeon*

      My Dad is even older and I have never ever in my entire life heard him yell. Not at home and certainly not at work. He was a CEO of several major companies and he had his first stroke at 40.

      Blaming age and health is ridiculous.

      He taught me to be calm, polite and immovable in conflicts. Nod and smile and listen to the other person but stand your ground if you believe that is the correct action.

    11. Generic Name*

      For real. They’re also basically saying, “I was treated abusively growing up so I should get to treat my staff abusively now”

    12. Antilles*

      It’s an excuse. You know how it’s an excuse? Because OP somehow still has a job and in fact has risen high enough in the ranks to have a bunch of employees underneath him.
      That likely wouldn’t be the case if OP1 was applying the same black-and-white, harsh yelling, “shut up and get over it” attitude towards outside clients or his bosses.

      1. ferrina*

        Yuuuup.

        Note that OP isn’t say “I yelled at clients and they won’t come back.” They are saying “I yelled at someone that I have power over, and I want them to get over it so I don’t have to face any social consequences from bullying someone that I have power over.”
        Then OP goes on to blame any and every excuse under the moon. It’s their health, their generation, their profession, their childhood, their personality. It’s everything except “I am a full-grown adult, and I have choices in how I treat people. I am choosing to treat people badly, and I don’t want to change my behavior.”

        Sorry, but if you are truly that bad with people and there’s nothing you can do, you get a second in command to interface with your employees while you become a distant boss. You don’t say “I should be immune from consequences of my actions!”

        1. froodle*

          ‘Note that OP isn’t say “I yelled at clients and they won’t come back.” They are saying “I yelled at someone that I have power over, and I want them to get over it so I don’t have to face any social consequences from bullying someone that I have power over.”’

          and there it is. if it was truly outside OPs control, he’d be pulling these stunts in situations where it negatively impacted him. but, oh, how surprising, he’s only doing it to easy targets. Repulsive.

      2. Statler von Waldorf*

        Agreed 100%. Isn’t it a funny coincidence that somehow those strokes haven’t made him uncontrollable lose his temper at either his boss or clients. Somehow, they magically only make him abusive to the the people that he has power over. Funny, that.

        This letter has huge “I’ve tried nothing and I’m out of ideas” energy.

    13. Wendy Darling*

      I’m an engineer and I resent blaming it on being an engineer! ‘As an engineer, I am black and white with no emotions….kind of “shut up and get the job done,”‘ has never been a thing but we did pretend it was a thing for many years in the past, to our detriment. It is absolutely not acceptable behavior in the year 2025.

      I am an engineer and I am also extremely easy to work with and skilled at handling nuance. My people skills are normal to good. If you meet younger engineers you will find that this is common.

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        +1! I work in an agency stuffed full of engineers (as in thousands of them). We have an agencywide initiative around fostering a culture of belonging and plenty of engineers participate in that. Leaders demonstrate that they can hold people accountable for performance without yelling. This includes plenty of older white men socialized in a different time under different power structures, and we hire a lot of retired veterans.

        Our success in recruiting and retention comes from demonstrating that we’re the kind of workplace you want to join. Yelling is not a plus and if I yelled I’d rapidly find myself talking with my boss and HR.

        For the record, I’m 62 and my husband is 60, a retired Marine, and formerly worked in construction management so he was engineering-adjacent. Neither of us needs to yell when something goes wrong, neither of us would abuse position power this way. This isn’t about age and it isn’t about profession.

        You’ve received a lot of really great advice from Alison and in the comments. I hope you can be straightforward enough with yourself to own what’s yours to own, get a medical checkup, and work toward actual, genuine atonement and making amends. That will demonstrate strength, not weakness.

        I often recommend Rabbi Danya Rutenberg’s book On Repentance And Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World. It’s grounded in Jewish law but you don’t have to be Jewish (I’m not) to appreciate her wisdom and her writing.

    14. Salty Caramel*

      Also a contemporary and this attitude is not typical of our generation or age.

      Not sure how LW got into management because the black/white thing is a terrible mindset for a manager to have.

  5. Lorax*

    LW #2, I get it. I also have the impulse to just fix/try to cover up mistakes before anyone notices, and like you, I think it’s from years of being in a situation where mistakes were judged very harshly. All I can recommend is therapy. It’s ultimately what helped me, and if you’re regularly making mistakes like forgetting keys in doors, a therapist might be able to help you with mindfulness techniques or other strategies. Again, from personal experience: a therapist helped me with a problem I had forgetting things, like forgetting to close doors or turn off the oven, because I was so anxious and scattered all the time. If therapy isn’t an option right now, I’d look into online resources for mindfulness techniques.

    1. peanut gallery*

      I use the Japanese train operator safety method when I leave the house: point and say “the door is locked” and “the alarm is on.”

      1. Tio*

        I didn’t know people called it that! I use it to remember whether I locked my car as I leave the parking lot. Literally say out loud “I locked the car” and then I magically remember it

  6. Viette*

    LW #1 “I am black and white with no emotions” — then what are you yelling about?

    Genuinely, it sounds like you have a short fuse and poorly controlled temper. The strokes can definitely affect that! Impulsivity, ease to anger, that kind of thing can certainly be kicked off by strokes. That being said, you yourself identify your upbringing and experience as normalizing “harsh yelling”.

    Consider why you think they should “get over it”. Is it because YOU had to get over it when you were harshly yelled at as a younger person, and you have now earned the right to yell at others? That kind of culture isn’t something worth passing down. Find a new way to feel in charge and seek out why you are feeling — yes, feeling! — so prone to yell. You don’t have to express yourself this way, and it’s never too late to free yourself of this behavior.

    3. Education Mic*

      There is no greater loss of emotional control than yelling at another adult. People at work are not interested in your childhood issues and how your upbringing affected you psychologically. Expecting them to be is very emotionally driven behavior.

      There is nothing more logical than wanting to avoid someone who is out of control of their emotions and treats you poorly.

      My heart goes out to OP because strokes and their aftermath are terrifying, and they do reduce your emotional control. But it’s time to stop blaming his employees and rationalizing his own behavior. He needs to put all the “I’m a military boomer” blustering aside, do the brave thing, and admit he got emotional and messed up.

    4. MigraineMonth*

      Additionally, OP, I would try to separate who you *are* from your actions. You’ve kind of defined yourself as someone who is “short” and “has no emotions.” Not only is that inaccurate, the person you’ve described cannot be a good manager.

      A good manager should not be overly touchy-feely or involved in managing their employees’ emotions, but they also need to treat their employees with respect and be receptive to feedback. They already have the power to discipline and fire, so they should never raise their voice or otherwise force their employees to manage their emotions.

      Alison has talked about how our self conception — “the excessive need to be me” — can get in the way of our professional goals and development. You need to decide if you want to be the person you describe yourself as, or if you want to be a manager.

  7. ENFP in Texas*

    Not charging a patient for a fee could be considered a Kickback and can land the pharmacy in VERY hot water with federal agencies.

    I realized that a one-time mistake and just trying to pay it out of your own pocket likely would not cause anti-kickback regulation difficulties, but it is so very important that you understand why it matters that these regulations are followed.

      1. HB*

        I’m in medicine and my first thought. For some insurance coverage it’s illegal to wave a copay or coinsurance.

        1. curious*

          Why? I had a dental office repeatedly attempt to charge my primary (health) insurance for a night guard, when I knew that wasn’t covered and got dental insurance to cover it. The office kept saying the insurance co. denied it. When I got on the phone to straighten it out with a regulator, the dental office realized their repeated mistake. Why would the patient pay the full copay in that situation (v. the dental office taking a haircut by not having the pt. pay)?

          1. Tio*

            It’s one thing to not get charged a fee you’re not due, but if you did indeed owe the copay, it’s to prevent pharmacies from going into shady areas – for example, your pharmacist waives the copay but you pay it to the person instead and they maybe slide you a few extra pills. That kind of thing. When you’re talking medical stuff, a lot of it is highly regulated, and allowing that kind of thing opens the door for bad actors.

    2. A*

      Pharmacy is a highly regulated industry and the reason the boss cares is because she is REQUIRED to care, for her license and the stores license. She is accountable for making sure things are running smoothly and they’re complying with all regulations, and mistakes happen but in the compliance world there’s a difference between ‘made a mistake, fixed it, documented it, and made efforts to avoid future errors’ and ‘pattern of sloppiness and covering up mistakes’.

      The problem isn’t making mistakes, everyone is human and all systems have to account for the human factor. But covering it up can lead to some real problems down the line and nobody likes when a serious issue is uncovered by an auditor instead of being neatly wrapped in a bow and solved before auditors come knocking

    3. Amira menadi*

      I am the employee here and i know this won’t help a lot but it was a product that was not covered by insurance and was a simple hydrating cream that can be acquired in supermarkets. And since the patient was our client i thought the pharmacy gifted it to him since we do that a lot. So it doesn’t cause any problem with the law. And since that incident i have successfully reported every move i made. The relationship with my boss and colleagues has improved significantly. I am so grateful that they let me improve rather than firing me.

      1. allathian*

        Thanks for the update, and I’m very happy for you. You changed your behavior and they changed theirs accordingly.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          ^This right here. This is the pattern to learn, OP, to start to shift out of your bad pattern.

      4. Ipsedixitism*

        Good on you OP! You can rebuild the trust, and earn all the more respect from your boss and colleagues for doing so.

        I am always amazed at how much impact, long-term, a toxic workplace can have on us.

        1. Liane*

          OP clarified above that the error wouldn’t have legal/regulatory repercussions. Bonus – they are already doing what’s been advised and work relationships are improved!
          Great, keep it up, OP!

          (Amina menadi is the username if you want to search for it.)

            1. What_the_What*

              Yes, it is! I often have to scroll up collapsing as I go to see what I’m responding to. A “Replying to Liane” at the top of posts would be super helpful. Or something indcating which post is being responding to.

      6. Nah*

        Thank you for the update, and I’m so happy your work life has gotten much better!

        Making a quick note of your response for anyone searching op* or lw*

      8. Indisch blau*

        OP2: Good on you for changing your thinking and reporting your mistakes. I too have had toxic workplaces that I’ve taken years to recover from. My Inner Calvinist has not made it easier.
        I’ve found it helpful to watch how other people deal with their errors. In the situation with the hydrating cream it’s not clear to me when you realized the customer should have been charged – before/during checkout or after. My Inner Calvinist will interpret a mistake like not telling someone something would be charged for as going back on my word. Thus it’s my responsibility to pay. Other people have polite ways of correcting the error in the moment, i.e.: I think I forgot to mention that the cream isn’t covered by insurance.
        If you mistakenly thought the cream was a giveaway and found out later that it wasn’t you can use the situation to ask your boss if there are ways to tell when something is a gift for a regular customer.
        My point: Watch how people you respect deal honestly with their errors as they relate to your boss and as they relate to others. Then you’ll find the sweet spot between self-flagellation and cover-up.

      9. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        You learned and have improved. Seriously this is a MAJOR thing to be proud of.

      10. Productivity Pigeon*

        Thank you for the update! It made me really happy to hear that things are going well.

      11. Jennifer Strange*

        Glad to hear you’ve already started making strides! My first “real job” was with a supervisor who also harangued me for every small mistake. When I moved to my next job it was hard at first to trust my new supervisor. About a month or so in I made a moderate mistake and just decided to bring it to her (since I’d rather know then and there whether she’d be a repeat of old supervisor). Thankfully, she turned out to be wonderful. It FELT like such a different employee/supervisor relationship, and I realized what a healthy workplace environment feels like. Once you get over that hump, it’s really great!

      12. learnedthehardway*

        I’m very glad that you were able to turn things around – sounds like you have a good manager and the culture is much more healthy than the one you came from.

        A toxic culture can really do a number on your sense of what is normal and reasonable.

      14. Insert Clever Name Here*

        Thanks for the update, OP2*. I hope things continue to go well, and that you continue to learn healthy work practices from this manager.

  8. steve*

    LW #1 describes themself as “with no emotions” as if anger and frustration weren’t emotions. I initially wrote “himself,” even though it’s never stated in the letter, because this is such a classic male behavior: I’m purely rational and everyone else is letting their feelings dictate their behavior, even while I rant and yell. As Alison said, the only way to get them to treat you like a reasonable person is … to be a reasonable person. That’s gonna take some work, I’m afraid, including learning about your emotions.

  9. Viette*

    LW #2 definitely calls for a clear-eyed evaluation of what consequences they’re expecting to get from admitting when they make a mistake, and whether those are actually worse that the consequences they’re actively experiencing from hiding their mistakes.

    If hiding the mistakes is just a habit, it’s a habit it’s time to knuckle down and break, or LW #2 will get fired eventually. If LW #2 is under the impression that the consequences for admitting a mistake are going to be worse than the consequences for hiding these mistakes then they’ve got to think about why! Did the current boss make that impression? Was it a previous boss? They can’t be treating the current boss like she’s some other person LW #2 knew before — as powerful as those old fears are, that’s never going to work.

    1. Saturday*

      Sometimes the consequences of telling the truth might be worse. But a person can’t be honest only when it’s easier for them.

    2. Jackalope*

      If the LW happens to be in therapy right now, this would be a really good topic to raise. If not, I’d recommend taking some time to figure out what the triggers are for wanting to cover up mistakes. When those moments come up, try to come up with some way to give yourself some space; take a minute to breathe, or to recite a short poem (or a prayer if you’re religious), or to count to 100, or whatever you find works. It sounds like your reactions are fear-based and/or emotional rather than thinking it through, and if this can give you some time to stop the knee jerk reaction telling you to cover everything up it may help you do better problem-solving.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yes, I came here to play the therapy card too. It sounds like LW2 was in a very toxic situation before this job and that can be a VERY hard situation to get past without help. Don’t try to go it alone, LW, and apologize to your boss that you have gotten good at hiding your mistakes and maybe (maybe?) ask her for some specific steps going forward. For instance with the keys issue, is there a system for making sure the keys go back in the right place after you are done using them? Can you or your boss come up with a system to ensure this doesn’t happen again?

        With the patient fee one, it sounds like maybe you were trying to avoid the patient complaining to you because you wanted to avoid conflict. (I am conflict-averse myself so I jumped to that conclusion, and also I sympathize!) Can you talk to your boss about what to do if a patient starts getting upset about paying fees? Maybe in that situation she’d be willing to step in sooner than she would with another employee, at least until you’re more comfortable dealing with angry customers.

        Sorry to say, OP, but hiding your mistakes is only making your supervisor trust you less, but if you are honest with her about working to stop hiding them, she will likely begin to trust you again. Good luck, I’m sure you can turn this around!

  10. INF Vet*

    OP #1, I am a military Veteran (Infantry who saw active ground combat during GWOT). I now work in sales and have been a top preforming sales person at several companies.

    I had a FORMER manager who yelled/cussed me out over an expense report being late (less than a week) when I had been traveling back to back weeks twice in a row, with a week home between the two trips…. I had a new job lined up before getting done with the second trip.

    Civilian employment isn’t the military. People yell/scream when they have lost control (and then lose respect). Even if you are right, if you deliver the message like an asshole, no one is going to listen.

    if you want people to quit, keep doing what you are doing. Hiring/training is expensive and your bosses will notice.

    1. Crencestre*

      ” People yell/scream when they have lost control (and then lose respect).”

      This x 1,000 (at least!) There’s a proverb that sums this up beautifully: Master of your own anger, master of all. Yelling, screaming and cursing don’t show strength – they show weakness. The screamer isn’t being a Manly Man or a take-charge woman; they’re behaving like a toddler having a meltdown tantrum!

      Bottom line, folks: How well do you think you can manage others when you can’t even control yourself?

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      And as a vet myself, I NEVER yelled at my teams and would not tolerate from anyone else either.

    3. Lemons*

      This is so well-said, OP 1 you need to understand that you have lost your employee’s trust AND their respect. Considering your dismissive tone in this letter, it seems like they have no reason to believe they won’t be yelled at again, so why wouldn’t they be on guard?

      I respect that you may be struggling with your emotions due to the strokes messing with your ability to self-regulate, and that sounds very difficult. It may be time to talk to a doctor or mental health professional to get some tools to help you with this. In the meantime, you’ll need to demonstrate long, LONG, consistent behavior that shows you won’t yell at them again, and even then, accept that some will never trust/respect you again.

    4. What_the_What*

      Yep. I had a govt. program manager scream at me–like leaning over the conference table in my FACE yelling at me. My company team lead told him he couldn’t do that and he was baffled. “I yell at my male engineers and they don’t cry about it.” But the funny thing was, I never ONCE saw him yell at anyone not female. I quietly put in my notice to my company, never told anyone in the office, and the last day I walked in with my replacement to a meeting we had scheduled, and said, “Today is my last day and I’ll be out processing. This is Bob; he’ll be leading program X going forward. I’ve briefed him and he’s up to speed.” Walked out and never looked back.

  11. Cmdrshprd*

    OP5 at the risk of stating the obvious, have you thought of splitting the difference and living somewhere halfwayish between small town job is based at and big city? to be that would kinda be the best of both worlds.

    So 30 minutes from the job, and only 30 mins from the city? a benefit is the rent/housing would likely be cheaper. I live and work in the same city and my commute is still about 45 mins, and getting from one end of the city to the other takes 45/60 minutes.

    I say this because it sounds like you want the job just not the small town.

    1. D*

      Heck, if they’re on friendly terms with the ex, they could even just ask about local meetups for people in their peer group or friendly places to move–if the ex might date someone, then they haven’t settled down either and have found a way to make this work for a young single them!

      1. Anon in Canada*

        Unless the ex grew up there and has family/high school friends in that town, there is significant likelihood that the ex is just as lonely and miserable as LW would be if they moving there.

    2. KateM*

      I also imagine that commute from “between” to “small town” is going to be pretty good in the sense of rush hour traffic mostly going the other way.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      Some people despise having roommates, but if OP was amenable to trying it, it might be a way to make sure they are around people during the winter.

    4. GammaGirl1908*

      In addition to splitting the difference, I have known people who have done this calculus, and decide that it makes more sense to drive a longer distance a couple of times to week to socialize than to drive the longer distance every day for work. For me, it would depend on how many days you have to go into the office, and whether you are remote or hybrid or something else, but I would consider where you are going on more days and do the math accordingly.

      1. bamcheeks*

        This is just my experience, but that works for me if I’ve already got networks in the city and people I’m looking forward to socialising with. Then the one hour drive is worth it! But it’s incredibly hard to motivate myself to drive an hour to go to an activity / class / group etc full of people that miiiiiight become friends, if I stick with it and drag myself out every week for three months.

        I moved to a small city with limited opportunities to meeting new people for my first post-graduating job, and it was actually a terrible idea. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it was just a bad year, but I do look back and wonder how all sorts of things might have worked out differently if I’d waited for the next job or stayed in my hometown and temped a bit longer. So LW, if you need a vote for “you don’t have to do this”, you’ve got mine!

        1. KateM*

          When we moved to our current small town one of the first things I did was to check out the local community centre and join a group there. The one that seemed to be least unsuitable was an art studio and over a decade later I still am no good at painting, but I *have* made a bunch of friends. :)

          1. Anon in Canada*

            How old were you though? And the use of “we” suggests you probably weren’t single.

            Moving to a small town as a coupled middle-aged or older person is absolutely not the same as moving to one as a recent grad young single adult.

            I would be willing to bet that the people you met at this activity either weren’t young, or weren’t single, or were neither. The “young single adult” demographic is largely absent from small towns – and this feeds on itself since people see that, and think “if there’s nobody like me in this locale, I don’t want to move there”.

            Young single adults don’t belong in small towns.

            1. KateM*

              Our group has people from 20 to 80, I’d say. There absolutely are/have been young single adults. And this is one of the most sedate groups in this community centre – there are for example two theatre groups – one the usual kind and the other improv, and my understanding is at least in the second one, a lot of participants are 20+ crowd. Folk dance groups are sorted by age, so one of them is specifically for late teens/young adults.

              1. Kal*

                It can vary of course, but in my experience, small town community groups often tend to LOVE if anyone in the 20-40 range gets involved. The older folks love getting to have younger people around, especially if there’s a chance of getting to pass on knowledge about something they love (and to get them to do the physical things they can’t anymore), and will tend to make sure you know of anyone else your age in town. And anyone in the same age range will enjoy having more around.

                I know it can be hard for a young, new grad to think about the older folk being the kind of friends that can help make cold winters less gloomy since all through school friend tends to mean someone your own age, but making friends whose age is vastly different than you can be super rewarding. And meanwhile maybe the ex can help let the LW know where good places to go in the city are for when they want to drive in to the city and hang out with more people their own age so they can start making connections there too.

        2. ferrina*

          I’m with you- an hour commute is too long for me to do on a regular basis just to hang out. All of the regular activities I do are 10-15 minutes away. There’s a lot more I could do if I wanted to travel an hour, but that’s not something I want to do on a casual Tuesday.

          It sounds like LW has really thought this over. LW, I’m also adding my support of “do what your instincts tell you.” You won’t burn a bridge by saying “The move won’t work out at this time.”

        3. Baunilha*

          I think it really depends on what options the city offers.
          Not quite the same situation, but we live in a big city, and my in laws live in a small town about an hour away that doesn’t have a lot of options. They drive here almost every weekend to go to concerts, plays and museums. In fact, they know more about events in the city than we do! Most times we don’t even see them, they just go straight to the venue, enjoy their day, and then drive back home.
          So OP could check beforehand if there are any groups or activities available in the city that would make the drive worthy for them.

    5. H3llifIknow*

      As someone who lives in a very small town, I found it EASIER to meet people here at the local “watering hole” etc… than in my former “big city.” Moving is always hard, but you’ll meet colleagues at work, etc… and turning down a job because you’re afraid of being lonely… look I’ll be honest it sounds very young and “who will I sit with at lunch” to me. Be friendly. Be open and warm and you’ll likely find people warming to you in return in no time at all!

      1. Anon in Canada*

        Seniors may be more willing to talk to random people in public places in small towns that in big cities. I’m perfectly willing to believe that.

        However, this has absolutely zero relevance for a young, single recent grad in their 20s. Such a person not only needs friends they can relate to (who are at a similar life stage), but they also need sooner or later to start getting dates and find a partner. Good luck with getting dates in a small town where the median age at settling down is something like 19. And good luck finding friends if you’re single and 90+% of people in your age range are coupled (many already having kids).

        The needs of “full-grown coupled people” are very different from the needs of young single adults. This shouldn’t be hard to understand.

        1. Wow. Gross attitude.*

          You have a really negative view of small towns and also an extremely limited view of the needs of single people, young people, and lots of other demographics. As someone who move alone to a small town in a different country I did just fine with meeting people and made lots of friends that I’m still in touch with today. Then again, I wasn’t overly focused on mating like you seem to be.

          I’m friends with people that have kids, that don’t have kids, that have (unfortunately) had kids but then the kids died, that are married, that are partnered, that are single, that are poly. Your desire to only befriend people that are in the exact stage of life that you are at is your limitation and your failing. And it is a failing. This also shouldn’t be hard to understand.

          1. Anon in Canada*

            I have this “negative view” of small towns because I grew up in one, and had to leave it because I didn’t find a partner early enough, and virtually everyone else had partnered up by that age. And while I realize that not all cultures are this rigid, in my culture, the vast majority of non-student adults who are in serious relationships aren’t open to be friends with singles. I was more than open to be friends with them. But they weren’t, due to my single status.

        2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

          What on earth? You’re being very absolutist and condescending and making tons of assumptions about all of these other people, including the LW.

          So, according to you, young, single people do not exist in small towns. Also, young, single people are incapable of striking up conversations with strangers and meeting new people (only seniors do that? what?). Also, you’ve decided for this total stranger that they *need* to date and find a partner immediately, and that’s more important than any other consideration.

          The LW could easily take the great job that sounds really good for them and *find out* what the town is like. If they find in 6 months they don’t like it, they can think about moving closer to the city, moving into the city, and/or getting a new job in the city. When you are young and single is actually the best time to try things out. If they don’t work, no harm, no foul, try something else.

          1. Anon in Canada*

            I grew up in a small town. Virtually all women (and a more-or-less corresponding number of men) were settled down with a partner by age 22 at the absolute latest.

            Also, “striking up conversations” completely at random in public places (not even as part of an activity)? Only seniors do that. Millennials are Gen Z don’t do that because we know that nobody under, huh, 65 welcomes this anymore.

            1. Kal*

              I grew up in a small, rural town (in Canada) too, and while a good number of people married around that age, I’d say it was probably actually only about 1/3. But they remained perfectly capable of speaking english and answering texts and going out for coffee even after they got married and had babies.

              And while we millennials and gen z may not be particularly prone to chatting with unknown people at like, the supermarket while we’re getting groceries, we do know that things like activities and clubs and community groups exist and we can, in fact, talk to and make friends with people we meet there. We can also even make friends with people who weren’t in the same grade as us in high school!

              My hometown is just as real as your hometown, so why are you making the assumption that the LW is specifically moving to your hometown and will hate it like you did?

      2. Plate of Wings*

        I agree with Anon in Canada. I moved to the big city in my early 20’s where I didn’t know anyone and I met so many people that contributed to the life I have now, because I didn’t need need a car (or have one!) to find great people and activities.

        I would deeply regret picking a job in my early 20’s and missing that chance. Maybe if it was a truly terrific position that would help me break into a competitive field (and stay there) or be amazing on my resume if I only stayed 2 years. But usually we can’t know the benefits to our career before we take the job.

        If getting married and having kids is the life LW wants, they should give themselves opportunities to meet lots of like-minded people by moving to a place where there will be many of them.

  12. Anna*

    OP #1, you describe yourself as no emotions, just getting the job done. If that is true and your yelling is a selected managerial strategy now you can re-evaluate its efficiency. If you instead are loosing your temper, your description of yourself is incorrect and you need too admit that you are very emotional. (There is nothing wrong with being an emotional person, but it helps to be honest if you want to address problems.)

    1. Spooz*

      Yeah, I was really taken aback by that assertion that OP is not emotional. Yelling is almost always a response to emotions! Anger is an emotion, for example. I think OP needs to evaluate their self-perception in this regard.

      1. Carlie*

        Yep – and I was thinking “Shut up and get the job done” applies to OP too, especially the “shut up” part. They should be taking their own advice.

    3. Alicent*

      I work with grieving people every day. A lot of men don’t want to show emotions, but then convert everything into anger because that’s an “acceptable” emotion to them. The ones who do cry APOLOGIZE to me which is completely unnecessary! I don’t remember the men who cry, but I do remember and get traumatized by the ones who shout, carry on and lash out.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I can’t remember where, but I heard this described as “Women are socialized to express anger as sadness, and men are socialized to express sadness as anger.”

        1. Weaponized Pumpkin*

          Ha, I was reading the comment you responded to and immediately jumped to how I (a woman) convert all my anger to sadness. Genuinely I almost never feel anger — even though I know it must occur — because my brain shifts it SO FAST into sadness. True for me!

    4. Owl-a-roo*

      Although OP #1 mentions “my employees”, they describe themselves as an engineer and not a manager. As somebody in a technical field, this sounds like a case of an engineer getting promoted to manager because it was the next available step on the career ladder, not because they explicitly wanted to be a manager. I’d hazard a guess that OP doesn’t have a managerial strategy and just assigns work without considering the people-management part of the job.

    5. Dark Macadamia*

      Right?? “I only experience one emotion and express it badly” is not the feelings win angry people like to think it is. It’s not weak to experience sadness, fear, compassion, etc. and it’s not strong to fly off the handle all the time.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        It’s definitely not helpful to you to experience sadness, fear, loneliness, insecurity, etc. and express it all as anger. No one wants to help you or be your friend when you’re lashing out at anyone who gets close.

  13. Mad Scientist*

    #3, it sounds like they did warn you! But nevertheless, I’ve had this happen many times, and it’s annoying. Especially because my internal emails usually include links that clients can’t access / drafts that aren’t meant for external submissions. Just tell me you want me to draft an email for client XYZ and I’ll do it. Forwarding my internal emails to external people will only cause confusion.

    1. GammaGirl1908*

      Not only did the recipient indeed warn LW, but I think a lot of people intentionally make a point of hot-potatoing emails from experts because they don’t want to rephrase incorrectly or lose an important detail, or say something differently than was intended.

      Also, to be frank, as the recipient, I make a point of reading the entire email chain, even if only the top message really was intended for me, partly because it often includes important context, and partly because you gather a lot of information from the back-and-forth that people have when you aren’t involved.

      I say all that to say that you should assume that once your email leaves your desktop, it can go anywhere, even places where you did not intended to go. You should consider that when composing your emails.

      1. amoeba*

        I mean, that wouldn’t really be possible in our field, because 90% or our work is confidential or at least internal – so we definitely need to be careful when sending stuff to outside parties! Now, collaboration partners/clients would most likely be covered by some kind of CDA, but we’d still only include what’s relevant for them to know and also really need to check that whatever we write is actually within the scope of said CDA/contract.

        However, internally that would be zero problem, and externally, as long as colleague makes sure there’s nothing confidential in there, I also wouldn’t mind at all. Which I’d assume if my colleagues decide to forward because they generally know what they’re doing!

        1. NotBatman*

          This is true, and good advice — but I think there should still be etiquette around asking “Is it okay if I pass this along?” before you do.

          When I was entry-level at my first job, a senior colleague asked me to look into why no one in our department liked our one program. I wrote him an email in response passing along (anonymously) lots of negative feedback about the program, including a few frustrated comments about the program lead. The senior colleague immediately forwarded my email to the entire management team, including the program lead. I was mortified, both for myself and for the lead. Luckily this was no one I worked with closely, especially because the lead’s wife went out of her way to ignore me after that, but it was still appalling.

          1. Chris*

            If you’ve heard it will be forwarded as is then I’d write for the client. Otherwise, you could include include Allison’s language at the top of your email:

            “If this needs to go to a client or higher-up, I’d like to express it a bit differently so please let me know if that’s the case.”

          2. H3llifIknow*

            “This is true, and good advice — but I think there should still be etiquette around asking “Is it okay if I pass this along?” before you do.”

            I would generally agree, except that the LW said s/he often acts as an intermediary providing information for others, so conceivably s/he KNOWS it’s likely going to someone else other than the person asking. In which case, treat it as if it’s ALWAYS going to be shared *poof* problem solved. Write it like your boss’s boss’s boss’s client is possibly going to read it!

        2. ferrina*

          Exactly. I like to ask if I am planning on forwarding someone else’s email, but I assume that not everyone will ask me. I assume that my email could be forwarded until proven otherwise. This coworker has proven that they will forward- assume that any email you send this person can/will be forwarded.

        3. fhqwhgads*

          Sure, but the issue in the letter is less “info nobody else should have” and “the appropriate voice/ way of phrasing things to a colleague vs to a client”. It’s not that what, it’s the how.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        They don’t want to rephrase incorrectly or lose an important detail.

        This comes up in my work. I’d rather someone pass it along unchanged (hopefully after we’ve established I should expect that) than someone who attempts to paraphrase and winds up changing the meaning, or removing an important clause. (Like a bad AI summary from software that doesn’t understand what it’s summarizing: Humans can do it too!)

        1. H3llifIknow*

          Yeah. I’d never change data/information, but I DO often cut off ancillary “hey how was the show Friday?” or inside jokey stuff irrelevant to the question at hand before passing something along. If there’s a potential attribution issue, I’ll also delete email header and signature information, as well. But if I say “Hey the A team needs to know XYZ” and I get that information, I’m under the impression that the person sending it KNOWS I’ll be forwarding it to the A team.

    2. Silver Robin*

      Not really a useful warning though, because it came after the LW already wrote the email and does not leave time for them to say “wait, if you want to just copy my response, please phrase it this way instead.” For all LW knows, their email was forwarded 5 seconds after the warning. So all they get to do is sit tight and hope the tone and content hit all the right notes.

      1. GammaGirl1908*

        But that will pretty much always be the case in an advice column. We have no expectation of giving information before the fact here. We’re responding because the LW asked whether it’s normal to have your email forwarded verbatim. The answer for many of us is yes, so in the future, or should someone else who happens upon this letter be faced with a similar situation, that’s the information they need.

        1. Mad Scientist*

          I think what Silver Robin is trying to say is that the LW’s coworker may not have given LW a chance to respond to the warning before forwarding LW’s email. Not related to LW writing into this advice column / our response.

    3. Hush42*

      #3 is one of my biggest pet peeves but it does sound like OP is in a slightly different situation that I am. If I was OP I would, like Alison stated, start writing as if it was going to be sent straight to the 3rd party.

      In my case it’s my team members asking me for help on a particular situation. I answer them and then they copy/paste my answer to the person who asked (almost always a member of our sales team). However, my answers typically are based on the assumption that the reader has context that I know my team has but that the sales team absolutely doesn’t have. They need to be rewritten to answer the full question, not just the question I was asked. I have addressed this many times with them and it’s gotten marginally better. The worst was the day someone asked me a question and I responded with “You (team member) need to do X and Y so that he(sales) can then do Z which will solve the problem”. They copy and pasted that response without even changing the pronouns so the answer made absolutely no sense to the person who ultimately received it.

    4. Matthew*

      I once sent an email to support that contained a sentence that began “Don’t tell the customer this, but [future unannounced plans the support professional should be aware of].” And of course that got copy/pasted to customer communication. Sometimes, employees need to discuss things in a way that’s inappropriate to a customer. But if the recipient simply won’t read your warnings, what can an employee do?

    5. Melon Merengue*

      I have a coworker who will do this and copy and paste full internal emails to outside customers, complete with our system- and company-specific terminology and names of people the customer will never speak to and doesn’t know. None of it is usually confidential or anything but it really confuses our customers and quietly drives me crazy.

      1. PMaster*

        That would drive me openly crazy. At best it’s a waste of the customer’s time, at worst it makes your organization look foolish.

  14. duinath*

    LW 2 I am not surprised your co-workers are less warm to you/avoiding you. When you make a series of mistakes of this magnitude, people start thinking you’re unreliable with your duties, but when you also hide your mistakes they start thinking you’re unreliable in your character.

    I would advise you to look at what is causing you to make these mistakes, and what is causing you to hide them, not to explain yourself but to make a plan.

    Stop yourself in your tracks. Figure out if it’s absent minded mistakes, rushed mistakes, or something else; and catch yourself at it.

    Same thing with the deception, while you are planning strategies to avoid making mistakes, make a plan for how to handle it if you *do*. Aim for the best, plan for the worst. Walk yourself through it.

    Bottom line, the best way to change the way people view you is to change the way you behave.

    1. Productivity Pigeon*

      OP replied further up in the comments and seem to have been able to turn things around! :)

  15. Manager perspective*

    LW #2 – as a manager the most serious offense to me is dishonesty. Someone who can’t acknowledge and own up to mistakes is a much bigger deal than anyone making a mistake.

    I understand your history is a job where you had to cover things up, but your best move here is to show your manager you can acknowledge and own your mistakes.

    The mistakes may be serious. But an honest mistake will never be as a big a deal to me as trying to cover something up.

    1. CityMouse*

      I think it’s also worth mentioning that making errors is normal, but in a pharmacy errors could have very severe consequences. So if you feel you can’t trust someone in that kind of workplace that’s a very very big deal.

        1. Liane*

          (reposting in right place)

          OP clarified above that the error wouldn’t have legal/regulatory repercussions. Bonus – they are already doing what’s been advised and work relationships are improved!
          Great, keep it up, OP!

          (Amina menadi is the username if you want to search for it)

          1. Dread Pirate Roberts*

            The part about leaving the keys in a pharmacy door three times is extremely serious though. But it does sound like she’s improved and regained trust.

          2. CityMouse*

            While there weren’t legal issues for this action it’s more “trust you to report the small stuff and the big stuff” issue. if I notice a pattern, I’m going to be wary about allowing someone to be in a position of trust. It’s good that LW turned it around.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      This is the foundation of trust. If you lie to someone whenever that would make it easier for you–because you don’t want to be embarrassed, or yelled at, or thought poorly of–then they learn not to trust what you say. It’s a very logical response.

  16. glt on wry*

    I’ve been new to a job like OP2 after two years of toxicity under someone like OP1. For me at Old Job, the first reaction when I made a mistake was to want to obscure it because, unfortunately, I was used to getting yelled at any error as if it was the end of the world. This was a daily experience for everyone on the floor, so it was pretty ingrained and it was horrible.

    When I moved to New Job, first time my manager noticed a mistake from me (while I was kind of cowering), he told me ‘We don’t yell here.’ And I was able to breathe, acknowledge the error, resolve to learn and do better, and just keep being a good employee.

    OP2, I think you should trust your new environment and new boss and know that they want you to succeed. Because if you are successful, that transfers to the company. This will make a huge difference, and you’ll be able to have faith in yourself, too, and know that good employers aren’t the type to be out there just waiting for you to screw up so they can smack you down. Good employers like you and they want you to grow.

    I would tell your boss you’re sorry for your behaviour but explain where you’re coming from, explain your fear of screwing up, and then please just trust yourself and the new place and keep pushing for success, small and big. Take care and I wish you the best.

    1. Bast*

      I also have worked in toxic environments where while you may not have been yelled at for making mistakes, you would be ridiculed in company meetings and have your job threatened. No one was safe. For me this lead to an “is the stove on” response where I would waste time repeatedly checking the same thing over and over and holding my breath while hitting send, and waiting for the blowback. What’s worse, it wouldn’t always be immediate — sometimes managers would store “mistakes” and you’d hear about a typo you made 9 months ago. The first time I made a minor mistake at my first job, the response was so mild it made me wonder when the ax was going to fall. It never did. I was informed of how to do it the correct way, corrected my error, and we all moved on. If you are used to being berated/screamed at/etc., it can be so hard to just accept the normal (and professional) response as being “it.”

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I worked for too many years at a company where rankings were all important (and you could improve your ranking by throwing your coworkers under the bus) and determined whether or not you got laid off. Every mistake was a big deal, had to be documented, had a “blameless post-mortem” meeting to discuss whose fault it was, etc.

        At my current job, when you make a mistake, people just want you to fix it. No write-up, no meetings, no assigning of blame. I couldn’t accept it and got stressed waiting for the other shoe to drop, so I just… kept pointing out the mistake. A bit compulsively.

        Hey folks, I made this mistake. Manager, did you see this mistake I made? Yes, it’s fixed, but I made this mistake. Did everyone see this mistake? It’s mine. Yup, I did that.

      2. AngryOctopus*

        Yep. I had a boss who spent an hour planning meeting going over a failed experiment I had to “find out what went wrong”. Newsflash, we couldn’t tell. Because science isn’t like that. And later when I realized I used the wrong plate type? I didn’t tell him, because I didn’t fancy a repeat of before, or him just deciding to tell me how stupid I was. That was the only boss I had where I wouldn’t confess mistakes, because it wasn’t safe to do so, for me or any colleagues. If you know you’re just going to be yelled at or made to feel dumb, you end up keeping your head down and never confessing anything. It’s not healthy.

    2. DireRaven*

      I’ve worked in environments where you are yelled at for your mistakes; environments where mistakes are an opportunity to learn and improve processes; and environments like the second, but the second they need to downsize the department, a mistake made two years prior are dredged up to “show a pattern” and then are used in conjunction with a more recent mistake (that you took immediate responsibility for, resolved, and set a procedure to minimize risk of repeat) to justify your termination because you are less well-liked than a more recent hire. (and by layoff rules, the well-liked more recent hire would be the one laid off)

  17. Chairman of the Bored*

    LW1’s position of “CAN’T YOU SEE HOW UN-EMOTIONAL I AM WHILE I AM YELLING AT YOU?” is really remarkable.

    4. Pizza Rat*

      I took the self-description of “unemotional” as “I don’t care about other people’s emotions.”

    1. Bonkers*

      There was an update in a reply thread earlier in the comments – OP has since resolved to change and things are going really well!

  19. Anon1234*

    I’m wondering if the boss of LW#2 was LW#1.
    It would explain the deep fear of owning up to mistakes.

    2. amoeba*

      The previous boss maybe! What she’s writing about her current boss really doesn’t sound like that at all – seems to be a holdover from previous toxic job.

  20. Sunny*

    OP2 – one line in your letter really stood out to me – “I really love working there and i respect my boss and love her so much.” This is a work relationship, and this actually sounds like you’ve maybe invested a bit too much emotion. I wonder if you’re also viewing her as a parent figure, which is another reason you’re hiding mistakes.

    It’s great to respect your boss and have warm feelings towards them – but “i love her so much” isn’t really appropriate in a workplace and you may want to step back and think about what it means to maintain professional boundaries. (To be clear, I don’t think you’re saying love in a creepy way, but just that it’s overly emotional for a workplace.)

    1. SunnyShine*

      That’s reading a bit into the letter too much. I mean, sure, she could be, but her letter doesn’t suggest that at all. “I love … so much” is something I hear from a lot of recent college grads. That’s not overly emotional at all. It’s just a way of speaking.

    2. Kat*

      “I wonder if you’re also viewing her as a parent figure, which is another reason you’re hiding mistakes.”

      I caught that too and was wondering the same.

      Besides, OP needs to get to the bottom of this. They are there for one year and left the key on the door three times. This is a lot! But I do not have the impression that OP tried to figure out what went wrong or how to avoid similar mistakes in the future. I understand that OP carries baggage from their old job about hiding mistakes. But hiding is one thing, and it’s another thing not to think about plans for avoiding them in the future.

    3. Still*

      I reacted to that line as well! It seems very intense and like the kind of thinking that’s out of place at work.

      And it strikes me as doubly weird considering that the OP has been acting in a way that does not demonstrate respect or trust towards the boss.

      It gives the impression that the OP is coming from a place of personal feelings (“I love my boss and I want her to like me so I hide the mistakes I’m ashamed of”) rather than professionalism (“I respect my boss and her decisions, I take responsibility for my actions”).

          2. You Shall Be Called Ferquin*

            Some colleagues and I discovered this recently – to our cost. Although now I’m imaging us picking up the toxic bosses and carrying them out of the building like cardboard cut outs.

            1. KateM*

              I was imagining that same and was thinking that it would be easier to do for many employees than “very few employees”. ;)

      2. Generic Name*

        I had a boss say to me, “Eventually you will need to just move on from this” referring to something that made me so angry that I was interviewing for jobs. I looked him straight in the eye and said, “Yes, I will move on”. I was gone a few months later. Somehow, management was shocked when I left.

  22. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    1. Been in engineering for decades and encountered more than one strictly binary thinker who gets frustrated and angry. It’s not strictly speaking a generational thing as there are graduates with this attitude just as often as the near retirees. Will say it’s predominantly men though.

    How to personally recover after letting anger out at work is something I can advise on (it takes a lot of work and may not be successful but is worth doing anyway) but how to get others to forgive you isn’t. When you’ve pushed someone else too far there’s only one thing you can do for them and that’s never subject them to your bad behaviour again and even then there’s no obligation to forgive and forget.

    I’m sorry this isn’t the answer you want. But there is hope! If my late 70s engineer father can moderate his temper then anyone can.

    2. merida*

      Yes! And your last sentence gives me hope that maybe my parents, too, one day, could grow in this area.

  23. Feedback Fiend*

    LW1 – a few years ago in marriage counselling my ex asked “why can’t she just get over it all and move on”. The answer from the counsellor was that the reason I couldn’t just ‘get over it’ was because the ex had not yet taken any accountability for his actions or acknowledged the hurt that he had caused. While this is a work situation, the answer is just the same. LW1 needs to take accountability for the inappropriateness of their actions, and acknowledge they caused hurt to their employees. Only then will the employees be able to start to move past that, however that will also depend on the future behavior of LW1.

    1. Generic Name*

      Yeah, I’m getting strong, “It’s not my behavior that is the problem, it’s your reaction to it” vibes from this letter.

  24. Seal*

    #1 – As someone who’s had more than my share of abusive managers who regularly yelled at me, I’m not surprised your employees are holding it against you. Getting yelled at is humiliating. Every manager who yelled at me instantly lost my respect and I never felt comfortable around them again.

    Also, you don’t have to be “in touch” with a generation to treat its members with respect.

    1. Wolf*

      > having grown up in the late 60’s and early 70’s and in a military household

      I’m sorry you grew up in a home where yelling was considered normal. Now that you’ve realized that, it’s time to grow beyond your childhood hardship and learn to communicate like a responsible, respectful adult.

      1. merida*

        Yes, 100%. I have a lot of sympathy for OP. Both of my parents were military kids whose parents yelled all the time, so then as adults my parents yelled and insulted others as one of their main ways of communicating because that’s all they knew. I do have sympathy for them, truly. I can understand why they acted they way they did. But at some point as an adult, it’s time to take responsibility, go to therapy, learn better skills, and not let the cycle continue any further.

        1. Observer*

          But at some point as an adult, it’s time to take responsibility, go to therapy, learn better skills, and not let the cycle continue any further.

          Yes. That’s true in both personal and professional contexts.

          “That’s the way I was raised” may work when you are 20, but not when you’re in your 60’s.

      2. I Have RBF*

        My parents yelled at each other and us kids constantly. Yelling, cussing, hitting. They finally divorced when I was in my teens. But from that I learned some really bad behaviors that I’m still working on. The least of which was yelling.

        If LW #1 can afford it, get counseling. If not, get some self-help anger management workbooks. I could never afford a shrink, so I did the hard work by myself.

    2. Observer*

      Also, you don’t have to be “in touch” with a generation to treat its members with respect.

      So much this! Whether it’s a generation, occupation, country of origin, or any other grouping. Sure there are some cultural differences, but yelling / not yelling is *not* one of them.

  25. Irish Teacher.*

    LW1, it sounds like you have very strong emotions if they caused you to yell, at people. Now, it sounds like there are reasons for this that aren’t entirely your fault. It sounds like the strokes may have caused you to have trouble controlling your emotions. Frustration is an emotion.

    And it’s not really reasonable to say, “I couldn’t control my emotions and keep them under check, but I want to tell my employees to control theirs. I act out when people annoy me but I find I annoying that others react at all when people annoy them.”

    As regards how to get your employees to forgive you, I think you first have to fully acknowledge what you did and reframe it more accurately. You are not less emotional and more work oriented than your employees. You are over emotional and allowed it to interfere with your work. If you see it as them being emotional and overreacting, any apologies will come across like, “I’m sorry I wasn’t gentle enough and I hurt your feelings by being too rational and unemotional” rather than “I’m sorry I let my emotions get the better of me and acted out.” It will sound patronising and like a faux-apology.

  26. Kella*

    OP1, you describe yourself as having no emotions but yelling is an expression of anger, frustration and/or a desire to make others uncomfortable to spur them into action. If it weren’t any of those things, you would’ve said the same thing at a normal volume and it would’ve been equally effective, with less backlash on you.

    Because you value logic, that means that either a. you are having an emotion and using an inappropriate behavior to take it out on your employees b. you are counting on your employees having a negative emotional reaction to your yelling to motivate them (which is abusive) or c. you are arbitrarily using a tactic that has no value at all and you’ve discovered has significant drawbacks.

    Lastly, beware viewing other people’s reactions to you as being “emotional” and viewing your own emotions as objective truth. Other people are also full complex humans with complex reasons behind their actions, just as you have.

  27. Persephone*

    For LW1:

    1.) You consider your upbringing/generation part of the reason you’re fine with yelling. This may be true in the literal sense, but that doesn’t mean yelling at others was ever okay. Whether that’s at home, at work, or even in the military. You never should have been yelled at like this, and you shouldn’t be doing it to others. It previously being the norm doesn’t change it the fact that it’s wrong (which we know thanks to significant research that has since been conducted).

    2.) You’re a human— you literally can’t be black and white with no emotions. Sometimes people see themselves as being rational when they’re actually highly emotional; knowing the context behind your thoughts/decisions can deceive you into thinking you’re being logical, compared to others whose thought process you can’t know and therefore appear irrational to you. You also can’t be 100% yes or no (aka black and white) without having strong feelings on the subject matter. In order to be as rational as possible, it’s necessary to recognise your emotions so you can take things like personal biases into consideration.

    3.) As uncomfortable as it might be to think about, you should probably be thinking about what the future of work looks like to you. Getting angry and losing your temper easily takes a toll on you as well as others. Others have mentioned neurologists/psychologists for assistance with this, but the answer might be cutting back work or even retiring, if your finances permit.

    I hope things go well for you (and that there’s no more strokes! They’re so nasty!)

  28. Vimes*

    OP #1
    Has temper tantrums at work
    Talks about his “lack of emotion”

    Did you forget that anger is an emotion? Excessive logic is not a problem you have. The problem you have is poor emotional control combined with arbitrarily defining whatever you do as logical, not because it actually is logical, but because you did it and you want to think of yourself as a rational person.

    Recommend either taking some management courses or, y’know, therapy.

  29. Feedback Fiend*

    LW4 – please wear the most colourful tights and other clothing that you can! As someone who worked in government for 20 years, pretty much every workplace I’ve ever seen can do with some brightness.
    As long as your clothing is covering you appropriately, is suitable for your role function, and is in keeping with the general dress standard of the rest of the office (Eg: don’t wear jeans if everyone else is in business attire) then wear whatever you are comfortable in.
    I know someone who regularly wears glittery tulle skirts to work (office environment) in a govt department!

    1. o_gal*

      But on the other hand, you will have companies that do not allow tights, so check with your management. We were told no to tights because (totally seriously) they could be interpreted as sweatpants. I kid you not.

      1. londonedit*

        What?

        Is this another US/UK difference? In the UK tights are what I believe is known in the US as ‘pantyhose’ (what a horrible word). Tights come in all sorts of colours and don’t look anything like sweatpants (??) and they’re a perfectly normal thing to wear to work.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Not a US thing. Tights in the US are the slightly thicker pantyhose — certainly not thick enough to be mistaken for sweatpants. What ballet dancers wear. If o_gal’s company was in the US then it was just a weird company!

        2. Ana Gram*

          I’m American and tights are just opaque pantyhose where I’m from. No one could ever confuse them with sweatpants! I’m baffled by this as well.

        3. TooTiredToThink*

          Tights are generally thicker than pantyhose in the US. Pantyhose is generally a neutral color – near skintone, but can include some colors, but are still rather thin. Tights are are worn under other clothing; such as dresses or skirts. They would never be confused with sweatpants. As you said, they are perfectly normal – although some more conservative (traditional use of the word, not political) might frown on more colorful ones.

          Leggings are even thicker and can be worn as the outermost garment. While I can imagine some work environments allowing some leggings; I can see most places saying “no”. They could be confused for sweatpants.

          1. amoeba*

            That’s what I’d assume! And yes, those would not really be workplace-appropriate in most places, unless worn *under* something. By themselves, they’re really too athleisure. (In place of tights under a dress or something – no problem, of course! Or for physical labour etc., also fine. But not yoga pants as officewear.)

      2. HonorBox*

        Tights generally are worn under another garment. I’ve seen yoga pants and leggings worn in the workplace, and no under a dress, skirt, sweater, etc. My workplace defines yoga pants and leggings as ‘athletic wear’ and we’re not allowed to wear athletic wear.

        1. OP4*

          Thanks for the encouragement! it’s going to be getting warmer in the next couple of weeks so I’m going to go for it.

          These tights aren’t totally sheer, but would still need to be worn underneath something like a dress or pencil skirt. When it’s very cold, I do wear leggings to work under dresses and nobody has ever batted an eye. Same thing for wearing yoga pants or thick leggings if I know I’ll be doing fieldwork. I think it’s a pretty lax place as long as everything is covered since nobody is customer-facing.

          1. KateM*

            I hope these lilac tights don’t show through the white sweater dress (it’s knit and so has holes, right?) – I think that would be a bit unprofessional.

            1. Shinespark*

              Plenty of sweater dresses are sewn from knit fabric with a fine weave, rather than knit from chunkier yarn that leaves gaps. I wouldn’t automatically assume it’s inappropriate.

              1. KateM*

                I didn’t automatically assume, but mentioned as something that IMO should be checked.

                Fine weave has still holes and whatever is under it may show through, it really depends more on how fuzzy the yarn has been (TBH more like “may not show through but most probably will”). You won’t see details of course, but when you have under a white knit something that has different, darker, eyecatching colour, coworkers might be able to tell exactly where tights end and top starts. I have seen sooo many black knit tops with black bra under it and yeah, it is very obvious where bra ends and skin starts.

                So I guess what I am saying is that OP should wear not only lilac tights, but also an undershirt of the same lilac shade. :)

                1. Observer*

                  whatever is under it may show throug

                  Sure. But it’s simply not the case that this is more likely with knits.

                  It’s also not the case that all knits have holes.

                  Knits are a significant part of my wardrobe. Believe me, I’m conscious of what can show through.

                  Of course, the LW should check, because that’s always a potential issue when you are wearing a light colored outer item, especially white, over something with a strong color. But I would have said that for *any* material.

            2. Lellow*

              Knit fabric just means stretchy (as opposed to woven, which has no stretch). It’s how the fabric is constructed.

            4. Observer*

              it’s knit and so has holes, right?

              No. Most knits don’t actually have holes. Even the unlined ones.

      3. Dahlia*

        I think you’re confusing tights and leggings. Tights cannot be worn without a skirt or some kind of covering over them. They are sheer. See, Snag Tights.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I also work in government and I wear tights all the time! And I often get compliments on them. Wear your tights with pride. They’re a cost-effective and practical way to make dresses and skirts cold-weather appropriate.

    3. Nobby Nobbs*

      If they’re wearing colored tights with a white dress my only advice is not to forget the half-slip! You never know what different lighting is going to do to your top layer’s opacity.

      1. Observer*

        That’s a good point!

        Also, the slip can be extremely helpful if you wind up with static problems, which tend to be more common with stockings of any sort vs bare legs.

  30. I should really pick a name*

    I know that I am out of touch with the younger generation, having grown up in the late 60’s and early 70’s

    Did you lose the ability to learn new things after that point?

    The 70s were 45 years ago. You’ve had lots of time to pick up on new norms. I’m getting the impression that you’re aware of new norms, you just don’t like them.

    1. CityMouse*

      I also hate this generational excuse because it just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. My Dad grew up in the 50s and 60s, saw his profession change significantly (medicine) and wasn’t in the habit of yelling at people at work.

    2. Generic Name*

      Also, I feel like LW is saying that being out of touch with young people means that they get to yell at them? If that’s meant to be an excuse, it’s a really weird one.

    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Being “out of touch” is a choice. You choose to stop paying attention, or you refuse to have respect for the younger generation, or you choose to shop learning and growing. It’s all a choice.
      I know and love many people who are generations above me who are very much not “out of touch” and their relationships and lives are much richer because of it. One of the most tech savvy people I know is a woman in her 80s!

    4. Pescadero*

      Everyones ability to learn new things is reduced as they age.

      …and some people weren’t great at when they were young, so that reduction can be pretty determinative.

  31. Coverage Associate*

    Do engineers have continuing education in competency? This is becoming a bigger deal in the legal profession, ongoing professional training in recognizing impaired competency in ourselves and our colleagues due to mental or physical illness, addiction, dementia, etc.

    The line to actually force someone to stop working is pretty high. Everyone is different in these things, and it’s fine if a lawyer can be competent only 4 hours a day instead of 8 due to injury or illness, as long as they are not working during the part of the day they are ill.

    OP recognizes changes following strokes. I’m not saying that they’re no longer fit to work, but I know that these things are different for everyone. For example, I don’t work well with repeated disruptions, and if I had a condition that forced me to change positions several times per hour, I would have to change my area of law or do something else to be a good lawyer after a physical change. Or more common examples are different people react differently to a few nights of disrupted sleep or after a couple missed meals.

    My point is, OP has had a physical experience that is adversely affecting their work. They need to either adjust themselves or adjust the work. I’m not a healthcare professional, but I know that they usually double down on all the normal advice for things like this: regular sleep and exercise, nutritious meals. Or OP could adjust the work by arranging for reduced management responsibilities or hours etc.

    If there’s a fumble, you don’t keep trying to run the play called at the snap. You adjust. Something has changed with OP. How will OP adjust?

  32. Nodramalama*

    LW2 oh my gosh, Alison is not wrong, these mistakes are serious. It is also very bad that you’re hiding them. You need to break the pattern, not just for accountability but to also help stop it happening again. Especially leaving the keys in the door- whether it’s creating a reminder on your phone or something, you need to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

    LW3 if this has happened multiple times, I think just write your responses assuming they’ll be passed on as is. The person may not want to risk incorrectly paraphrasing you or changing the message.

  33. londonedit*

    OP1: you say ‘knock it off and get over it’ to children squabbling with their siblings. You don’t say it to your colleagues, who may be ‘the younger generation’ but they’re professional adults who have the right to be respected and not shouted at in the workplace.

    I have every sympathy for your health problems, but if you’re yelling at people then it’s on you to firstly do what you can to mitigate that, and secondly to apologise when it happens. It is not on your colleagues to ‘knock it off and move on’ – shouting should never be acceptable at work (unless you’re yelling ‘FIRE’ or ‘GET OUT OF THE WAY OF THAT DANGEROUS THING’ or whatever). You’re in the wrong here, and it’s not about ‘the younger generation’. No one should put up with being shouted at, and they especially shouldn’t put up with being shouted at by someone who then shows absolutely no remorse and instead expects them to just get over it.

    1. Festively Dressed Earl*

      Exactly. “I’m sorry” with no real remorse and no effort or plan to change the behavior is meaningless; it’s not a magic phrase that turns your wrong behavior into the other person’s problem. In fact, it can make things worse if the person apologizing makes it clear by their tone or context that they really mean “just shut up so I can forget about it.” I appreciate that LW 1’s issues may be partially medical, but even there he has a responsibility to work with his medical team to solve the problem.

  34. General von Klinkerhoffen*

    LW5 says, “I don’t think the commute would be feasible with this type of work (I tested the drive when I flew in for my interview)” and I think this is the perfect thing to say when withdrawing. It means that future opportunities with the same company, and/or LW’s own circumstances, would only need to be slightly different for a great match.

  35. Frosty*

    LW3: I think whether this is fine or not depends very much on details.

    If your answer contains confidential info that should not travel outside the company and he forwards it to clients, for example, you should probably talk about that with him. Or maybe mark that info specifically as something that should not be sent on.

    If you are just annoyed and think that he’s not adding value as an intermediary, you should probably let it go.

    1. HonorBox*

      I agree that we need to know a little more to really be able to answer this. That said, even if something isn’t specifically confidential, if LW is providing some information, answering a few questions, etc. to/for the coworker, it is very likely that it is worded differently than they’d prefer if it was going to someone externally. I think it is worth suggesting to this coworker that if they’re looking for something that can be sent directly to an external person, they need to request that specifically.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Tbh, I have a colleague who routinely does this, and it’s annoying from the other side, too. Oh, thanks for the forwarded email where you expected me to scroll down and maybe dig through some responses to get what I needed. (Even if the OP is clearly answering their coworker’s question, that doesn’t mean that their email gives the ultimate recipient what they need. And they might be getting a flurry of similar forwarded emails to wade through.)

    2. iglwif*

      The first time someone does this, it’s 100% reasonable to be annoyed.

      But after that, you kind of know they are going to do it, so you now have an opportunity to write your replies assuming they will be forwarded as is.

      It’s a good idea to mark anything that shouldn’t be forwarded … but if someone is in the habit of forwarding things they shouldn’t, I wouldn’t rely on that!

  36. FunkyMunky*

    my coworker used to do that re: #3
    I told her to cut it out, and not forward my informal “notes”, a few times
    I made it clear the correspondence is meant for her alone

  37. r..*

    LW1,

    I am sorry for your health problems, especially how they impact your personality and temper. I assume you have already sought medical advice, but if you do not have, you should seek it out.

    This may sound unfair, and perhaps it is, but the fact of the matter is that employees have the right not to have to bear the fallout of their manager’s mental health problems; this makes your short temper and its causes a you-problem, not a them-problem.

    As for the yelling, you have to realize and accept that this isn’t appropriate or professional behaviour. It hasn’t been for *decades*. This has nothing to do with attitudes of younger generations, and you being out of touch with them; this is purely about what is or isn’t competent management. Alison already pointed out why.

    The most likely reason your employees are not moving on is because they believe your apology to be insincere or empty; that apologize purely to meet other people’s expectations, not because you yourself believe your behaviour to be a big deal. And based on what you wrote that assessment looks to be accurate.

    Hence the bad news is that as long as you don’t internalize why it is a big deal, your employees will likely not move on.

    But the good news is that getting them to move on is something that’s within your power, by working on yourself and your management style.

  38. FashionablyEvil*

    #1–I had a colleague (a senior VP) who had neurological impacts as a result of a heart attack. She became very volatile (yelling and crying frequently in meetings with senior staff.) She was previously excellent at her job but no longer works here because after about 6 months, she was quietly asked to leave. Just because there’s a health issue at play doesn’t change the fact that you can’t be abusive to staff.

  39. lanfy*

    Experience, probably.
    You are right in that no gender is specified, and this comment section normally gets to default to female instead of male (particularly helpful since Trump’s recent executive order accidentally declared everyone in the US to be a woman). However this is the sort of behaviour that is strongly gendered, due largely to societal norms.

    So LW1 could be a woman, and we shouldn’t assume gender. But that letter reads very male.

  40. N C Kiddle*

    I think what LW1 is rejecting with the “no emotions” comment isn’t so much having emotions as thinking about those emotions. Feel the emotion in the moment, react to it, then move on. Except that if you react in a way that affects someone else, the moving on is no longer just up to you. If you channel your emotions into yelling, people are going to have their own reactions to that, and you can’t dictate that they handle them the same way you would. You can only make your emotions entirely your own business if you keep your reactions away from other people. Which might be a solution in the future, to step away as soon as you feel the urge to yell and do it alone in a soundproofed room or something? But that still leaves the cleaning up from all the previous times, and you won’t be able to address that without a bit of empathy.

  41. the hulk's PTSD*

    For LW1–I’m not trying to pile on but for some perspective since you seem to be coming at it from a “these kids today” angle (and BTW, thanks to labor laws, and depending on what kind of work you’re doing, the youngest your employees could conceivably be is 18 barring any high school internships. And regardless of age, you REALLY shouldn’t be yelling at like, interns and if you do, you’d need to apologize immediately, sincerely because dude, WTF. Interns are there to learn, not get screamed at. If they wanted that, they could just stay home with their parents).

    I’m in my 40s and yelling in the workplace (of the type you describe) is one of my hard limits. Like “I will have one foot out the door with a fresh reume unless the salary is Bezos-levels great” limits*. I grew up in a yelling household and it immediately initiates a freeze response in me that no amount of therapy has been able to override. My parents are in their early- and mid-70s so they’re actually older than you. One of them grew up with an alcoholic father who had a very Jekyll/Hyde personality when drinking. When sober, he was apparently the nicest guy ever. When drunk, he was a verbally and emotionally abusive, mean old SOB (before my parent was born, he was physically abusive as well, according to his first few children. He had “mellowed out” to “just” being verbally abusive by the time my parent was born. Gee, how nice).

    And yet, I still grew up in a yelling-heavy household because that’s how abuse, intergenerational trauma, and “just get over it” mentalities work. And yes this was a military family. My late grandfather was a drunk before WWII but I doubt that helped.

    It sucks that you’ve had strokes and other health issues.But that is on you to manage. No one wants to work with someone who is just going to fly off the handle, no matter how good the job is. You know how in letter 3, the LW is avoiding their boss every time they screw up, or tries to hide mistakes, etc? That is the extreme example of what happens when you have a yeller in the workplace. Your employees will start avoiding you, stop telling you if a problem crops up, stop telling you if your ideas are off-base, generally stop approaching you or wanting to work with/for you. .

    So to paraphrase Rick and Morty: Get your stuff together. Get it all together and put it in a backpack. All your stuff. So it’s together. And if you gotta take it somewhere, take it somewhere, ya know? Take it to the stuff store and sell it. Or put it in a stuff museum I don’t care what you do. You just gotta get it together… Get your stuff together.

    *I have yet to find a job that pays this well, unfortunately, so that shows you much of a hard no this is for me.

  42. L-squared*

    #3. I do this ALL THE TIME.

    As a bit of background, I work in sales, and I often have some technical questions I need answered. As someone who is decidedly not very technical, I just forward most information exactly as is. Maybe I’ll change a word or 2, or take out info that is for me, not them. But in general, I don’t want to try to translate something and put it in “my words” and have that end up making things less clear.

    I’m not sure why it bothers you. The forward button is there for a reason.

  43. Lisekit*

    LW4 – please send a pic of the lilac tights and white sweater dress because that combo sounds awesome.

  44. Also*

    On the topic of unintended consequences of the LW paying the fee for the patient, this is deep in the healthcare compliance weeds, but it can raise a serious regulatory issue – if the patient’s care is paid by the federal government (Medicare, etc.), entities have limits regarding “beneficiary inducement,” that is, giving patients inducements to seek their services, including things like waiving the patient’s payment obligations without a good reason.

    It’s probably not triggered here, bit it’s a big deal that requires careful analysis.

  45. Delta Delta*

    #3 – This might also depend on the industry, but it seems like OP should assume anything they write could be forwarded to the client. I’m a lawyer, and my clients own their files. Everything I write (other than my own impressions) can go to that client when the representation is finished if they want their file. Likewise, I know my opposing counsel’s clients also own their files. Anything I write to OC could be forwarded to that client and could end up being something they own in the long run. Point being if OP knows this particular coworker does this, then OP should write things that are appropriate to send to the client. If OP wants to have a different interaction, they may need to set a time to talk, and do it via a different communication mode.

    #4 – All the lilac tights, please!

  46. Meg*

    The pharmacy forgetfulness is really serious! The pharmacist does really need to know because ultimately, they’re the one in charge and they’re the one who’s certification is on the line. These might seem small to you, but they’re pretty big issues.

    The thing is, when you mess up and hide it, then suddenly you’ve made *two mistakes.* Its much better for you to fess up soon after the first error happens so they can work with you on figuring out how to prevent these errors in the first place.

  47. HailRobonia*

    “As an engineer, I am black and white with no emotions….kind of “shut up and get the job done.”

    Um, you do have at least one emotion… rage.

    1. iglwif*

      Also frustration, impatience, and contempt, it sounds like.

      There certainly can be situations where “shut up and get the job done” is temporarily appropriate. Situations like you are actively fighting a fire, or administering CPR, or trying to quickly evacuate people from a building due to a bomb threat.

      Situations like this simply do not arise in most workplaces. Most situations in most workplaces are not emergencies. And even in workplaces where emergencies do happen, “shut up and get the job done” is the approach you take during the emergency, not consistently at all times.

        1. iglwif*

          I would argue that saying “shut up” is basically never appropriate in a workplace.

          Shutting up itself, however, can be. Just not as your SOP.

  48. Laura P*

    OP1: you don’t have emotions? If you didn’t have emotions you wouldn’t be frustrated or yelling. Anger is an emotion. “Having emotions” is not a moral failing, as you seem to imply it is. It’s not a weakness. And “emotions” aren’t just the ones people look down their nose at.

    YOU have emotions and YOU do not know how to control them, not the other way round.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I recall a neuroscience piece on being emotionless after a stroke knocked out a specific part of the brain: It really clobbered decision making, since this person no longer had emotions tagging “This feels good” “This feels bad.” Instead they were driven to selecting a restaurant by driving to each local option to check the wait time, because then they could decide among the options on a purely rational basis.

  49. Fluffy Fish*

    OP 1 – I assure you you have emotions like every other human being. Anger is an emotion. The irritation you feel towards your employees- emotion. Whatever was going on leading up to you yelling was emotions.

    In fact you are likely partially bothered (emotion) by your employees continuing to hold it against you because it makes you feel bad (emotion) and you don’t like feeling bad (emotion) whether you acknowledge it or not.

    By refusing to acknowledge you have emotions you are giving yourself a pass on having to manage your emotions and the behavior that’s tied to them. Wild guess you think “not having emotions” is a sign of strength and an admirable quality in yourself.

    It’s not – it’s a huge glaring weakness that results in behavior like screaming at people because you lack all emotional control. Therapy can help you learn to acknowledge and manage your emotions.

  50. AndersonDarling*

    #2 I think the LW is missing an important factor about working in a pharmacy…trust. You are asked to admit mistakes because your co-workers need to trust you. Every time you cover up a mistake, you are showing that you cannot be trusted.
    To be part of the team, you have to be honest and admit when you make a mistake, when you need help, and when you don’t know how to do a task or handle a situation. Everyone needs help and everyone makes mistakes, how you acknowledge it is what is important.

  51. Dinwar*

    #3: I’ve had coworkers do this–my boss has done this to me. I’ve had my tracking sheets–built for myself, because otherwise I’d go insane–end up in reports with minimal editing as well. What I’ve found is that my life is easier if I just assume whatever I make is going to end up in some official presentation of some sort, and build it from the start with that in mind.

    A side benefit is that this makes you look good. If your emails, charts, whatever are ready for the client to see it demonstrates that you’re ready to work with clients (or to present to regulators, or the BOD, or whoever). It shows that you’re polished and professional, that you know what you’re talking about and can present the information professionally. And while it may all be completely false (I know many engineers who are recognized as top experts world-wide who’s notes read like hieroglyphics) our bosses are human. It’s opened a number of doors for me.

    Another benefit is that it makes the other person’s job easier. If they can take your notes and hit “Send”, it saves them time and effort. Which, in turn, builds up your reputation as someone who knows what they’re talking about. Plus, any time you make your boss’s life easier it makes you look good.

    The one downside is that you become really frustrated with people who DON’T do this. I’m trying to teach someone taking over part of my former position how to do that job, and one thing they struggle with is this. It’s almost painful to request data that should be in a table, and to get an unformatted list in the body of an email. Not their fault; they’re new at the job, they don’t know how to present the data, and it’s my job to teach them. But it’s definitely something that jumps out at me these days!

  52. Off Plumb*

    #4: I’m a long-time government employee and I love colored tights. I’ve worn them in multiple jobs and I’ve never gotten any pushback or felt like I was being taken less seriously. (And I’m talking about things like ‘teal tights with burgundy boots’ or ‘red-striped sweater, bright red skirt, red tights,’ not just a pop of color in a neutral outfit. I even have colorful hair these days, but I asked my boss before I did that.) As long as you dress more conservatively for things like important meetings and presentations you should be fine. I get a lot of compliments.

  53. CatDude*

    LW1 is full of excuses for their attitude – I’m from a military household, I’m from an older generation, I’m an engineer.

    LW1 needs to own that their attitude is a *choice*, not an inevitability from their circumstances. There are plenty of people from similar backgrounds who are capable of understanding and empathy. LW1 needs to stop using those things as a reason to not change their own attitude.

  54. Tradd*

    Letter 3 – I have issues with this as well. I have coworkers who don’t write very well. I will write something, tell them to put it in a new email sent to the appropriate people and they just forward the email on! Or people who forward emails without removing attachments others shouldn’t see! That’s even more of a problem, especially when customers are accidentally sent the invoice from one of our vendors and see what our markup is.

  55. Dinwar*

    “As an engineer, I am black and white with no emotions….kind of “shut up and get the job done.” ”

    This annoys me. I grew up around engineers (my father and grandfather were both civil engineers), and they are the second-most passionate and emotion-driven people I’ve met, behind only scientists. They may express it differently, like demanding high levels of precision and the like, but at heart, it’s because of emotions. You can’t read thirty pages of design specs to identify that they used the wrong bolts (which can kill people) unless you’re extremely passionate about what you do.

    Further, most engineers are fully capable of healthy expressions of the whole range of human emotions. Anger, sure, but also joy, and sorrow, and love, and boredom, and envy, and all the rest. The idea that being an engineer gives you a pass to ignore healthy expressions of emotion is, simply put, a lie, one that our culture has taught us to accept, but a lie none the less.

    I cannot stand this view of engineers. I’m going to pick on them relentlessly–geologists and engineers are like cats and dogs–but it’s out of profound respect. They’re how scientific discoveries are turned into social benefits. And part of that is recognizing that they are, in fact, normal human beings.

    1. CityMouse*

      As someone from a STEM background myself married to an engineer, the whole “STEM types don’t have social skills” is such a tired and inaccurate trope.

      1. Pescadero*

        As someone who has been an engineer for 25 years, and works at R! university College of Engineering – Engineer are more likely to have poor social skills, because they are significantly more likely to be on the autism spectrum than the general public.

        That doesn’t mean engineers can’t have good social skills – but they are less likely statistically to have them.

  56. Falling Diphthong*

    A common theme in letters 1 and 2 is that the OP has identified the source of the problem. Which is an important first step to solving it, but not enough in itself. The people around you, who are affected by the problem, want to see that you applied that insight to change what you are doing, and so are not causing the problem any more.

    (In OP2’s update, this seems to have happened.)

    1. Kat*

      I’m managing someone on a PIP right now who does this and just doesn’t seem to get why it’s not enough. She gets so frustrated when I ask her to come up solutions to stop her mistakes from happening again, and she just keeps saying that she already knows what happened. I know you know! We both understand that part! I need you to keep thinking past that part.

      But she just mentally hits a brick wall and either won’t or can’t climb over it.

    2. Observer*

      A common theme in letters 1 and 2 is that the OP has identified the source of the problem.

      The key difference is that #2 *knows* that *they* are the the issue here. Which is why it was nice to see that they had started making changes. But also not shocking. Because it was clear that they understood the potential consequences to them and that they needed to change their behavior.

      #1 does not indicate that they have any sense of their own role nor that *they* need to change. All they want to know is how to make their employees change their behavior.

  57. Heather*

    LW #5, You describe the job as perfect. I think you would be shortsighted to not take it, especially as a first job out of school. Most people seriously overestimate how much time they will be socializing with a real adult job.
    You will be working 40+ hours a week and might only have the stamina to do social things 1-2x a week, unlike college when you had significantly more free time and more control over your schedule.
    You can go into the city on weekends for events and activities and keep your work week chill. You could easily do this job for a year or two and then reevaluate after you have some job experience.

    1. Ash*

      Hard disagree. I wouldn’t underestimate how lonely and isolating it can feel to do nothing but work M-F. Even if they pursue a hobby on weeknights, I know I personally would sink into deep depression if I wanted to get drinks or go out to dinner after work but I had no friends to do that with, and not much potential to make any either. I think OP likely knows that socializing is important to them and is making their decision accordingly. Also important to remember that work is not your *life*–the people you have relationships with, your interests and passions–that is your actual life. It’s nice if work is a part of that, but it’s not a guarantee.

      1. Czhorat*

        I’m with you. I get where Heather is coming from, but everyone needs to decide how they balance work and not-work.

        Even as a middle-aged married man with children living in suburbia I can find life out here isolating, and I’m *in* a big city at least a few times a week. *For me* life in a small town would be a big compromise, and I don’t have the added drive of wanting to find a partner.

        That isn’t to say that this is the right answer for everyone, but I trust that the LW knows what they want.

    2. Dinwar*

      There are also a lot more things to do in a small town than people tend to think. There’s a reason people live there, and most don’t sink into deep depression. You can join a church or religious group, join a volunteer organization, help out with town events (they always need volunteers), etc. If you’ve got a motorcycle or are willing to get one I’d all but guarantee that there’s a club. And we’re not talking Hell’s Angels or the like, to be clear; my uncle was in one and they rode bikes and raised money for children’s hospitals.

      There’s also probably more opportunities for socializing on a smaller scale. What I mean is, visiting folks is still a big thing where I grew up (small town on Rust Belt, Ohio, so snowed in half the year). Most people didn’t object to someone coming over with a pie or a plate of cookies or something, and you chat with them over coffee.

      Plus, it’s not that hard to make friends. Every small town I’ve been in, from Pennsylvania to Louisiana to Utah, has a couple of bars. Go in, buy a beer, and strike up a conversation with someone that looks interesting. Sometimes they’ll be jerks, sometimes they’ll be great, sometimes they’ll be your new best friend. Bonus points if they’re a police officer, EMT, and/or fire fighter, because if you’re friends and help out around the station you’re now friends with the department (and deeply involved in town politics, which takes up any spare time you once had!).

      1. T.N.H*

        But the chances of meeting a potential partner a lot lower, especially if the demographic of people in LW’s age group has already started settling down. I agree that she needs a big city if she wants to date.

      2. bamcheeks*

        I think this is great advice if LW were thinking of moving as someone with a partner and/or kids, but it’s really different when you are 22 and single! It’s very normal to be pretty dependent on a broad and mixed social group of people of a similar age or stage of life at that age, and it’s very hard to do without it. Nearly all the activities you’ve mentioned are great ways to meet people who are a bit older, a bit more established and settled, maybe partnered up and a little less dependent on regular friendship meet-ups– but that isn’t what you need when you’re in your early 20s and just getting established and settled.

        I moved to a small university city when I was just out of university, and it was miserable. Everyone I met through work was either a graduate of the local university who already had a from-university friends group, someone who had grown up in the city and had a social circle and family, or had moved as a young academic. I made friends with some of the young academics, but they were like 28-25 and seemed impossibly old and confident to me. I also went to church and met a few people who were in their 30s and married, and they were kind to me but they did not want to go out of an evening. I volunteered with a crisis group and met lots of retired people. I mean, I pretty much ticked off everything you’ve suggested there except the motorbikes, and I was miserable. These days, I would totally make friends that way! But as a 22-year-old, it was honestly the most sad and lonely I’ve been.

        It can work if you’re working with lots of other new graduates and young people, and know you’ll get to meet people and be part of a cohort through work. But if it’s a normal job where most of your colleagues will be older people with their social networks mostly set-up, I personally would not. What I mainly learned from that job was that you didn’t have to take a job just because it was offered!

        1. Anon in Canada*

          This. This. This.

          Advice like what Dinwar is saying is totally out of touch with the reality of young single adults. People saying that are likely people who have never been “single, non-student single adults” themselves because they were already settled down with a partner before finishing school (or since they were a teenager). They don’t know what they’re talking about.

          1. Dinwar*

            “Advice like what Dinwar is saying is totally out of touch with the reality of young single adults.”

            I gave no advice. I described how small towns work. There absolutely are ways for a young adult to find friends and partners–small towns wouldn’t exist otherwise. It’s harder, the options are more limited, but there are ways. Source: 30+ years living in small towns in multiple states across the USA, including periods when I was single, as well as the experiences of family and friends.

            Small town life isn’t for everyone. I’m the first to admit that–I refer to leaving my small town as escaping from it. But there are facts about how such places work that are worth considering. There are ways to meet people. You may or may not like them, and that’s fine–but let’s not pretend that small town life is everyone working then going home alone and being miserable. This urban bias is incredibly obnoxious and, frankly, a form of bigotry (one that’s as old as civilization; this bias is seen in Roman and Greek writings).

            I would also appreciate you showing me the respect of not speculating on my marital status, socio-economic status, race, sexuality, gender, height, BMI, or any other irrelevant factor here. You’re fishing for excuses to dismiss my statement, pure and simple. If you want to do that, simply say you disagree with me and leave it at that. No need to man-splane.

            1. Anon in Canada*

              I speculated on exactly one thing – marital/relationship status. Nothing else.

              Race and sexual orientation would absolutely be relevant factors that make small town life unsuitable. Except in the South’s “black belt”, small towns ARE more racist that cities, they just are, period. And good luck for a gay person to find a romantic partner with such a microscopic dating pool available.

              Of course small towns can exist without providing young adults with a dating and social scene at all – either the people there have been with the same partner since they were teens, or they move from urban-to-rural as a couple.

              “30+ years living in small towns” (and your suggestion to “show up to someone’s door with cookies”) heavily gives away your age. Your advice (yes, you provided advice) is not in any way applicable to today’s Gen Z recent grads. The world has changed, whether you agree with those changes or not, and whether the changes are “good” or not.

      3. Anon in Canada*

        Read bamcheeks’ reply.

        None of what you’re suggesting is in any way relevant for a single 22-year-old. This advice reeks of ignorance of what it is to be a young, non-student single adult… any chance you were already settled down with a partner before you left school (or left your teen years)? And if you’re Gen X or older, remember that an outright majority of Gen Z is non-religious (in both the US and Canada), so church isn’t an option.

      4. Anon in Canada*

        “Most people didn’t object to someone coming over with a pie or a plate of cookies or something, and you chat with them over coffee.”

        How about this:

        “Most small-town boomers don’t object to someone coming over in the way you’re describing”

        This advice is just as outdated as “send your resume by postal mail”. Millennials and Gen Z do not welcome this behavior.

        1. Pescadero*

          In terms of folks from small towns – the advice is equally applicable. Small town Millennials and Gen Z generally DO welcome that behavior.

          Urban folks – no matter age – generally don’t.

          This isn’t a “small towns aren’t good for young people” issue – this is “small towns aren’t good for URBAN people” issue.

    3. LaminarFlow*

      I agree with you. I’ve moved a ton for jobs, both nationally & internationally, and I’ve found friends and built a life in each city. I have loved it, and smaller cities typically have lower living costs.

      But, I also know that many new graduates have checklists of job must haves that read like a character’s life in a romantic comedy.

      Who knows, maybe this person’s skillset is so in demand that they have lots of offers in bigger cities to pick from? Idk, but I think I would at least go for a long weekend in the proposed city to check it out.

      1. Anon in Canada*

        It seems like the only item on OP’s checklist is “must be in a sufficiently sized city”. That’s perfectly reasonable and does not “read like a romcom character’s life”.

  58. ZSD*

    #1 It’s worth noting that people vary in their definitions of “yelling.” I grew up with a mother who yelled, whereas my husband grew up in a healthier environment where no one yelled. What he considers “yelling” I consider, I don’t know, talking heatedly. What I consider “yelling,” he considers “screaming.”
    So it’s possible that whereas you say you’ve yelled at your reports once, they would say that you yell at them regularly, and that once you outright screamed at them. If you look at this from that point of view, you might see better why they aren’t just “getting over it.”

  59. Czhorat*

    For LW#1:

    While I’m in an engineering-related field with a job very much focused on technical elements, I’ve learned over the years that technical acumen is far less important in any role than the ability to get along with people as a team, to communicate well and respectfully. As you’ve learned, yelling at people is the opposite of this, will harm morale, and will hurt your standing with the team.

    Part of what you need to do is to reframe your role and your skillset in your head. You have an engineering background? That means analytic problem-solving. Military? Discipline and order. Repairing and then maintaining your relationship with your team is a problem, like any other. You need to determine the cause (your loss of temper), determine the variables you can control (your attitude about it and subsequent behavior), and actions to correct (sincere apology, changing style and attitude from one that clearly does not work to one which – hopefully – will).

    And as for military discipline, you need the internal discipline to follow through with changes and hold yourself to them.

    It’s VERY easy for technically oriented people to see themselves as good with *stuff* and bad with *people*. That’s a trap. The ability to manage relationships is not a magical innate talent; it is a skill like any other and can be developed like any other.

    You see that there’s a problem, and sound analytic and thoughtful enough to be able to solve it if you’re able to be honest with yourself and open to changes.

    Good luck.

  60. Harriet Vane*

    News flash to LW #1: anger is an emotion, so your claim to not have emotions or bring them to work is wrong.

  61. CTA*

    LW #2. Your co workers and boss being distant most likely means you might be fired soon. The keys and paying for a patient’s fee are very serious missteps. You really need to reflect and decide if this line of work is within your competency.

    LW #3. I totally understand your feelings. I have a colleague (let’s call her Sue) DM me a question about instructions given to her from a software’s customer support. I was really teed off that she was asking me for help instead of just asking customer support for clarification on the instructions. Sue has this habit of delegating the hard parts of her job to me. I politely replied to her, “You should ask the vendor’s customer support for help with these instructions. I don’t have an ETA on when I can help you.” And she copy and pasted my response to the software’s customer support! I guess I’m relieved that I managed to not come off angry in words, but I was super annoyed that she told an outside vendor’s customer support that I couldn’t help her. What the heck?!

    1. Lady Lessa*

      Things are better for LW2, as she reported. Her screen name is “Amira menadi”.

      I’m glad for her that she can see the problem and work on correcting it.

  62. Parenthesis Guy*

    LW #1: Like the first comment mentioned above, strokes cause irritability. Per NIH, strokes impact the brain and often leads to feelings of anger, angry outbursts, irritation and impulsiveness, and aggressive behavior toward others. Depending on the type of damage a stroke does, it may not be controllable. I would strongly disagree that this is a management issue.

    I think what you need to do is either have a discussion with your team itself about your situation and how it’s causing you to act this way or have a trusted associate have that conversation with your team members. It won’t make your behavior acceptable, but at least people will understand where it’s coming from.

    In addition to that, you need to make sure that you’re advocating for your employees as best as you can. Make sure that when they have concerns that you address them as fairly as you can and try to help them advance in their careers. If you’re going to yell at them when they do something wrong, then you need to fight for them just as fiercely.

    Also, you may want to consider what the end game looks like. On the one hand, you probably want to talk with doctors and maybe even a lawyer to figure out what you can do to stay employed despite your handicap. On the other hand, eventually your company is going to want you to leave if you keep yelling at people. You should figure out how many more years you want to work, and what you’ll need to retire.

    1. Zahra*

      OP1: I don’t know if you have good and bad days. Days when you are more patient than others.

      I think the first step, if you haven’t done so already, is to tell your employees that your strokes make you more short-tempered. That you understand that it makes for an unpleasant/unsafe work atmosphere. So, in the future, you may tell them that you need to cool off or find other ways to communicate that a situation is frustrating instead of getting to the point of yelling at them. Some introspection on whether some types of situation are more prone to make you angry than others might lead you to have discussions on a more general level instead of individual instances.

      Then, do that. Don’t wait until you want to explode, say it as soon as you start to feel a bit angry or frustrated. It’s better to be over cautious than overestimate your capacity to stay calm. You can always correct the other way later.

      Heck, tell them “Today is a low-tolerance/low-patience/stressful/very busy day so can we do X instead of (however you communicate usually)?”

    3. Observer*

      I would strongly disagree that this is a management issue.

      That’s factually wrong. Sure, it’s probably caused *in part* by the medical issues. But it is still a management issue. To the point that it may not be possible for the LW to continue in a management role.

      I do agree with most of the rest of what you say, though.

      1. Parenthesis Guy*

        What I meant was that I don’t think this is being caused by poor management skills but rather due to impact of the stroke. Having strokes can really mess up your brain and make you irritable. It doesn’t happen to a majority of stroke victims, but this guy has suffered many strokes.

        I would agree that this might mean that he shouldn’t be in a management role. In fact, if this question was being asked by the LWs boss, I’d probably say that. But there’s no reason why the LW should volunteer to lose his job or take a demotion.

  63. Heather*

    Love that the “get the job done with no emotion” dude is actually super emotional. Own your emotions and actions and do better.

  64. dulcinea47*

    Ya can’t yell at people and in the next sentence say you have no emotions.
    I mean, you can but no one will believe you. What you’re saying is you don’t care about anyone else’s emotions. If you can’t get a grip, it’s time to stop managing people.

  65. LaminarFlow*

    LW1: you are asking for empathy and grace from your employees because you are older, from a different generation, and have health complications. However, you refuse to provide empathy and grace to your employees due to their own circumstances.

    I’m an engineer in my late 40s. I’ve been yelled at by plenty of people in the profession, and they have all lost any shred of respect I had for them. I have also ended up managing a few of them, which was a chore.

    Your company is putting themselves in jeopardy by having you in a leadership role, and I’m shocked that you have not been terminated or at least taken out of a leadership role due to your abusive behavior. Get help.

  66. cosmicgorilla*

    LW 1, verbal abuse is still abuse. And screaming is verbal abuse.

    Try changing the sentence. “I hit my employees. I’m former military and grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, and I just think they need to get over being punched.”

    Amazingly, I know many people that are some combination of former military, product of the 60’s and 70’s, and/or engineers that neither verbally nor physically abuse their employees or coworkers. You’ve given reasons that are nothing more than weak excuses for why YOU can’t get over giving in to the impulse to yell.

    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      You’re spot on about the excuses. And that’s all they are is excuses. Guy seems to have no ability to own up to bad behavior. He believes he is who he is and everyone should just take his abuse and get over it.

  67. Dog momma*

    #1. I know everyone is going to jump on this guy, Alison included. But I believe the best advice is to go back to the doy.Yes I know he’s ex military & older so he has his ” reasoning ” BUT. he’s also had multiple strokes, which probably messed up the part of his brain re anger issues, or how he deals with whatever he feels is frustrating. Some of this he can’t help. A referral to a mental health specialist who deals i n people post stroke AFTER he sees his neurologist would be very helpful. also a stroke support group may have ideas. I feel bad for him. He knows he has a problem but can’t quite figure it out, so deals by using things his brain is still wired for. I’m not excusing his behavior, just another point of view. Hope he reads this.

    1. Observer*

      But I believe the best advice is to go back to the doy

      Of course. But the LW needs to recognize that *they* are the issue here, not their employees. That’s why everyone is jumping on them, unlike #2, who recognized that they may need to change their behavior. (And, in fact #2 updated in the comments, that they have indeed changed their behavior and are doing better.)

  68. JennG*

    LW #1 – if the yelling is new since your stroke, it’s probably related to that the traumatic brain injury. My dad had an aneurysm and he was very soft-spoken before, and had some yelling incidents in the first two years of his recovery.

    One of the hardest things was getting him to realize what was going on. So I mention this even though I see other commenters mentioning it. If this is out of character for you pre-stroke, your brain is responding differently to inputs. Some help with a therapist or occupational therapist trained in stroke recovery can really help here!

    If this is something you did before your stroke, then that’s different and I see lots of advice on that front.

    1. Shan*

      Not exactly the same, but, looking back, one of the earliest signs of my dad’s dementia was that he got increasingly short tempered in his mid to late 60s and started having angry outbursts. It really sucks, because yelling isn’t okay, but also – he didn’t understand what was happening, and it’s not just as simple as saying “stop acting this way” or “fix yourself.”

      Unfortunately, while brain issues might be an explanation for OP #1’s behaviour, said behaviour isn’t compatible with being in a management role, so if they aren’t able to improve, they might need to change positions or look into other options.

  69. Anon in Canada*

    #5

    Small towns aren’t adapted to the needs of young single adults. They are just not, and there is no way of “tweaking” things that can make this work. In this case, living in the city and commuting doesn’t seem to be an option either.

    You are 100% right to pass on this job offer. Follow your intuition, and keep looking for a job in the city. No job is worth living in this lonely misery as a young adult.

    I have no idea of how to do this without burning bridges with the company – if I were the hiring manager, I’d be thinking “if the town doesn’t suit him at this time, why did he apply at all and waste my time?” – but if enough time has passed, maybe they could be okay with it, or the hiring manager could have changed.

  70. Cacofonix*

    I’m just gobsmacked that the LW left the keys in the pharmacy door *three* times. That is so, so bad. No wonder they don’t trust you. You need to be trustworthy.

    1. Dog momma*

      do they not realize there are controlled substances in the pharmacy.. they said ” keys”, not key. Loss/ theft gets reported to the state. You do not want to talk to the narcotics officers.. they don’t want excuses & they don’t play.
      As a retired nurse, I am more than gobsmacked.

      1. Amira menadi*

        I understand that it’s bad but please note that the first time i remembered instantly and went back and took them. The second time it was like 15 min after i got in that my colleague went in and found them. And the last time they were attached to the door during the day. The door was folded so they weren’t showing. And this happened during a time of stress when i was working 10 – 12 hours a day for months and managing everything, since the pharmacist was away because her husband died. And we were short staffed so i had to do everything even the cleaning.

        1. Cai*

          sounds like you should be reporting the mistakes so you can get more help. if you’re so tired at the end/start of a shift that you’re forgetting something as important as keys in the door – what’s that doing to your error rate? Pharmacy is such a difficult job. if they’re pushing you so hard that you’re making serious errors (and forgetting the keys for fifteen minutes is serious!) they need to know that.

  71. Definitely not me*

    #3. I work in state government, where we assume any email could be read by anyone, internally or externally, at any time. There is no expectation of privacy. The unwritten rule is that you never, ever include profanity, inflammatory language, gossip, etc. in written communications because it could come out in a public information request. Before this job I worked in the private sector for two different global corporations and the rule there was, “never say anything you wouldn’t want revealed in a subpoena” because we worked on government contracts. My point is, change your perspective and understand that if you’re writing an email for your job, anyone could read it. Never assume something is casual and just between you and your work buddy.

  72. Managing to get by*

    “I am black and white with no emotion”

    news flash: anger and frustration are emotions and you are not as coldly logical as you think you are.

    1. CommanderBanana*

      ^^ Right? I’m Mr. No Emotion except when I’m screaming and pooping my figurative pants at the office.

  73. HR Exec Popping In*

    LW2: For managers in a healthy work environment, the cover up is often worse than the offense. In my organization mistakes are excusable but being deceptive is reason for termination. Please take Alison’s advice. You need to stop trying to hide your mistakes and work with your manager on figuring out why they are happening and put in place new practices to prevent them from occurring.

  74. Ginger Cat Lady*

    OP1: The employees are not the problem. You are. You need to understand that your employees are afraid of you. They have lost trust in you. The way they are acting is *normal* for what you’ve put them through.
    And it’s because YOU have acted in a way that created the situation.
    You feel emotion. For example, anger and frustration. As evidenced by the way you treat your employees. So quit pretending that you’re so black and white and logical. You’re are not. And that’s not even a good thing to be!
    Fix yourself. Stop behaving this way. Work to rebuild trust and give them time. And for goodness sake, stop acting like them “not getting over it” is the problem.

  75. Box of Rain*

    Speaking as someone who has underwent a minor a personality change due to a life threatening medical condition–please seek treatment and share these things with your medical providers! There are SO many things that can help if you’re just honest with your doctors.

    Also, please don’t yell at people–ever, not just at work.

  76. Ginger*

    LW.2, Coming from another pharmacy worker: I know it is hard to come back from an environment of punishment for mistakes, but the culture of pharmacy and all medical fields should be “Just Culture” https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3776518/ Which is focused on not punishing mistakes, but doing a root cause analysis to figure out why something is happening, and if it is repeatedly happening, figuring out why. Sometimes it’s a person, but usually the issue is a system issue, or a physical environment issue.

    A specific example is, the refrigerator in my pharmacy kept popping open and causing temperatures to spike. (we had one incident where we lost I think $50,000 or more worth of drug). We first implemented locking the fridge at the end of the shift. That kind of worked, but I kept forgetting to lock the fridge, so it kept popping open again. while we haven’t lost any more medication, since management was on site for each of those incidents, but it was a serious issue.

    I wasn’t punished, or formally reprimanded (beyond being told I messed up. again). we had maintenance come over and tip the fridge back slightly to prevent the doors from popping open. and we haven’t had issues since!

    It sounds like your manager wants to participate in Just Culture, but to do so she/he needs to be informed so they know where the issues lay.

    Good luck in your career!

  77. Bunny Girl*

    3 – This actually happened when we were trying to buy our house. We had asked our relator to see if the seller would fix a couple small things around the house, and she sent it to the relator representing the seller, who said no in a very abusive and hostile way, and then that all got forwarded on to us.

    Point is, you can talk to your coworker about forwarding things on, but best bet is to always assumed things are getting forwarded on and write accordingly if you can.

  78. CommanderBanana*

    LW#1, you need a medical workup and to step back from management in the meantime.
    Your excuses and justifications are specious. You’re not a “no emotion” person and smearing engineers and military vets by saying that your behavior is somehow ok because you’re a vet and an engineer is gross.

    I just left my job of two years – a job where I singlehandedly held a department together during staff vacancies and turnover without missing a single deadline and got perfect performance reviews – because my boss decided to lose her temper in my office. I was on the job boards and reaching out to my network that afternoon and turned in notice 6 weeks later.

  79. Christina*

    LW#1: “As an engineer, I am black and white with no emotions” — if you’re yelling at people, you are not ‘no emotions.’ Anger and frustration are emotions. This rebranding of your employees as the super emotional ones because they don’t like to be yelled at, and you the impassive one because you don’t see a problem with yelling is delusional. Please work on your anger management and don’t make people’s workday actively worse. We’re all just trying to get through this life and having a boss scream at us makes an already shitty day ten times shittier.

  80. merida*

    A tip for OP #1 is to not make this a generational thing. People don’t like getting yelled at, period. You probably wouldn’t enjoy being yelled at either. The golden rule, right? Not yelling at employees isn’t a generational difference that you need to try to adjust to because the younger employees don’t understand your methods; not yelling is just a normal, human skill that we all need to learn at some point. You can still get your point across without yelling, and until you learn to do that consistently your employees understandably will hold it against you. There are a lot of books out there on how to develop good communication skills, many specific to work and many are more general books on how to communicate to anyone in moments of conflict. I’ve read a lot of them and wish everyone would. I’ve worked for enough bosses in the past with the mindset of “the beatings will continue until moral improves” that I feel I can confidently say that is not how to build trust on your team.

  82. MistOrMister*

    OP1 – I wonder if part of why your employees can’t get past the yelling is because you haven’t shown any regret for it. From your letter you seem like you think these things just happen and people have to deal with it. If that is the stance you’re taking it doesn’t surprise me that no one has moved on. I had someone yell at me twice. The first time I sucked it up and kept dealing with him although I never looked at him the same way again and it definitely changed how I dealt with him. The second time he raised his voice to me (yelling at me for something that went wrong that HE missed even though ai had sent him numerous reminders that he chose to ignore) I went straight to my manager and told her I was not able to continue working with him. People generally do not like to work with yellers!! No one should have to constantly be on their toes at work, worried that they will be screamed at and it is very difficult to move past being yelled at without a sincere apology and reason to think it won’t keep happening.

  83. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    As an engineer I despise people blaming bad behaviors on being an engineer. An engineer is a job title. Not an excuse.

  84. The 40-year-old journo*

    LW1, I have been in journalism for 20 years and know what it’s like to be in an environment where raised voices is very very normal (not to say good, just normal). I say that because yelling at work is Bad, but also because in my experience on this site the commenters really jump down the throats of anyone who has ever raised their voice beyond a whisper in the workplace as No Gray Area, Threat Level Midnight Bad.

    I just think it’s reasonable to see a raised voice as a broader spectrum than that.

    And: what you described is still not okay. It was never really okay but some of us stopped seeing it that way because a lot of environments made it seem normal and those norms have only begun to shift very recently. I’m glad you wrote in and I hope it encourages you to do some soul searching about how to cut it out. That could be anything from counting to five, to leaving for a less stressful environment.

    1. Cai*

      I think that might be because this is an office-work-focuses site. I’ve never seen a corporate office where yelling ought to be acceptable. maybe it happens in some fast paced settings, but there are rarely situations in an office that rise to that level. I’ve had orders shouted across a kitchen and that was fine- Chef needed to be heard over equipment. But yelling in anger in a quiet office? Never acceptable.

  85. Let go of should*

    OP1 – In addition to the excellent advice already given, I wanted to add that perhaps one thing that could help is letting go of how things “should” be and how your employees “should” behave. It’s possible (even though I sense a lot of other commenters wouldn’t agree with it) to build a solid argument for why your employees should move on – you’ve apologised and people should aim to forgive and forget, there’s medical circumstances which suggest this sort of behaviour isn’t normal for you nor may it totally be within your control and people should have more tolerance given those circumstances, you’ve been raised in an environment which has meant you’ve developed more of a tolerance for yelling than others and you recognise that but people should just agree to disagree.

    But just because you can build a world view for what you think people should do doesn’t mean people are obligated to buy into it. Some people may have their reasons to never tolerate any sort of yelling regardless of the reasons for it, some people won’t see your apology as being enough for them, some people will feel that although you’ve said sorry your actions don’t really reflect that you are, some people may be able to forgive but not forget and you may find this clouds their opinion of you – and, really, that’s their prerogative to hold those views and no amount of “but you should just move on for all these reasons” is really going to change that.

    Once you can come around to that way of thinking, I think it will help you find a way forward because it will stop framing things as a combative “I’ve said I’m sorry and you’re wrong for not forgiving me and moving on” and more as a collaborative “Even though I don’t fully relate to your reaction, I recognise and am sorry my actions have led to this. How can we work together to move forward since we still need to work together?”

    1. Observer*

      It’s possible (even though I sense a lot of other commenters wouldn’t agree with it) to build a solid argument for why your employees should move on

      The thing is that while it is possible to build that case, it is *not* “solid”.

      I’m not going to go into each item on the list, but none of them really mean anything unless the LW commits to change, and does so.

      Just because they have a higher tolerance for this, are “used” to it, were “raised that way”, does not mean it’s in any way remotely close to acceptable.

      Apologies with no acceptance of responsibility are classic “non-apologies” and are meaningless. And even when someone actually *does* apologize, if that apology is not accompanied by commitment to change, it has no *practical* meaning, which means that it should not change how people actually evaluate and act with the LW.

      By the same token, to the extent that this is a medical issue, that still does not make the case that people should accept it. Any more than they should accept being hit in the face because their manager has seizures. If someone *really* cannot control their behavior, then they need to not be in a position to hit people, whether physically (as with seizures) or verbally, as in the LW’s case.

      1. Let go of should*

        Going to push back that that’s really the point of my second paragraph. That, while OP1 has taken the facts and arrived at viewpoint A (and I would say that solid in this context means I can follow the thinking through to this, not that I think it’s acceptable or agree with it), other people can take those same facts and arrive at viewpoint B – which is that just because OP1 can tolerate that level of shouting doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to subject other people to it because it was never even acceptable for them to be subjected to it, their words aren’t reflected in their actions so that’s not enough and that nobody should be obligated to give them any extra leeway because of a medical issue.

        I think OP1 can either spend a lot of effort and energy trying to convince people that viewpoint B is wrong and that viewpoint A – which, like it or not, agree with it or not, is their world view – is the correct one and, if everybody just saw the world the way they did, they’d be a lot happier (which is where I sense they are now) OR they can accept that viewpoint B is also another perfectly valid way of looking at, even if they don’t agree with it, and find a way to move forward, knowing that your actions have upset people and that they must take accountability for that, even if they wouldn’t have necessarily reacted in the same way.

  86. Shannon*

    LW #2, I worked in retail pharmacy for 15 years and mistakes happen. Then when you add on being perpetually short staffed mistakes are inevitable. It’s really how you handle them. In pharmacy honesty is the best policy (sorry for the cliche). I worked with a pharmacist who tried to cover up a miscount on C2 inventory. He was rightfully fired, but if he would have just came forward and said hey there was a mistake he most likely would have kept his job. The reason he didnt come forward was because our manager at the time was a tyrant, like throwing stuff and yelling. Your manager sounds very understanding. I agree with Alison you need to talk to your manager and let her know your past work issues. For the key, can you ask whoever is closing with you to remind you or maybe a written reminder for yourself where you will see it?

  87. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

    LW 1:

    You’re a manager. Alison keeps pointing out that managers can’t really be friends with the people who report to them. You don’t mention friends outside work, but that’s where you should be looking for a social life. Call someone you already know, take a class in something like wapainting or French, or get a dog and take it to the dog park.

    Someone upthread recommended you see a neuro-psychologist or neuropsychiatrist. Neuropsych can have long waiting lists–I was offered a next-available appointment seven months in the future–so also ask your existing doctors what to do in the meantime. Cognitive-behavioral therapy might teach you some useful tools for not yelling at people.

  88. Elizabeth West*

    #2 — Oh my goodness, you need to talk to your boss, OP. And really be super diligent about not messing up again, and more importantly, NOT COVERING IT UP. I think your boss is giving you grace here, but you’re dangerously close to depleting it. If I were a manager, I’d be far less concerned about a mistake than about hiding it (and therefore, lying to me).

    #4 — I wish I were a dress person, because a white sweater dress with lilac tights sounds pretty!

  89. Cakergrl*

    Paraphrasing LW 1, I know I yelled at them but I’m in my 60s so it’s not my fault.

    As someone in my 60s, whose spouse is also in their 60s (and a manager), I am tired of hearing that as an excuse for bad behavior at work. Neither of us has EVER “yelled at” anyone at work and never will.

  90. Cai*

    Call me over sensitive but if my boss yelled at me in the literal sense of raising their voice and speaking loudly in anger – that is the LAST TIME I would trust that person and if I wasn’t already job hunting I’d start. I can recall vividly every time I’ve been demeaned , insulted, or yelled at by a boss and all of them ended with me losing all respect for that boss and mostly with me changing jobs.

    It’s unreasonable to expect them to just get over it. You need to change your attitude as a boss and actually treat people better.

  91. TQB*

    #2 – I’m sorry, I understand completely the aftereffects of working in a place with a culture of zero accountability. After my stint (which culminated in being fired on the spot for actually attempting to take some responsibility for a huge mistake by others) I felt like my moral compass was so skewed that I spent several years working as an independent contractor/freelance. I couldn’t trust anyone, and I felt broken. So, I also spent a year where i did not lie. Like, at all, to a ridiculous degree – just as an experiment. It helped me realize how easy the excuses and the coverups had become and helped me break the habit. Does is suck to make a mistake? Yeah. Is it helpful to have a fix in mind when you admit it? Of course, but you’re not alone and you’re not the end of the line – there are others there to help. Let them.

  92. SageTracey*

    #5 – Is it truly a case of living in the city or the small town? Widen your consideration of places to live to a radius you would be happy to commute and see if any other options pop up.

  93. KatJNZ*

    OP1: I can see that you have identified reasons why your default is to yell – age, health, etc. That does not excuse you. Behaving like a reasonable human being is a part of your job (any job!) and if you can’t do that, then you shouldn’t be working in that job.

    It is not for other people to get over your poor behaviour. You are being hurtful, and when you get that feedback you are not taking any action to remedy it. It may be that you have never faced consequences for your actions before, but it sounds like some consequences are due. If that isn’t satisfactory, you need to really gain some self awareness and humble yourself to do better.

  94. Raida*

    2. My boss found out I’ve been hiding mistakes from her

    Summary:
    I make mistakes, don’t tell my boss, specifically hide them… gosh what can I do?
    Stop. Hiding. Mistakes.

    “…because I planned on paying the fee myself, and by that I would be solving the problem without her knowing.”
    You KNEW it was against instructions, you KNEW she would want to know, your KNEW you’d already messed up by lying, but you wanted to *not get in trouble* so you doubled down. Terrible idea in the workplace my dude.

    You want to be a grown up with a grown up job and get treated like you aren’t a child?
    When she says “tell me about all mistakes” you keep a damn notepad to write them down, check if she wants to know when they happen, when they happen only if you need help, once a week at a 10 min catch up.
    Then you tell her, discuss what happened and why, confirm correct process and if there’s any processes that could help minimise this happening again.

    Look, I get that you’ve been treated up until this point as a child – by parents, by teachers, by anyone older than you. That meant “Don’t be a problem, don’t get roused on.”
    But now you need to learn how to interact with adults as peers – which is tough, because nobody taught you how. But you gotta learn. Check out local to counselling options to help with the “don’t want to get in trouble” feelings.

  95. Raida*

    3. When I provide info to a coworker, he forwards it as-is without warning me

    I’d go with something like “Here’s the bullet points. Just let me know if you’ll need it in a more client-friendly format :] “

  96. Starfleet HVAC Engineer*

    LW #1:

    If your excuse is that you’re an engineer, thus everything is strictly black and white, two things:

    1. You are a terrible engineer. In twenty years, I’ve seen very, very few problems where there is only one correct answer. We do cost-benefit analyses all the time. We meet with clients to go over requirements and how to meet them. We change things during construction or operation when it turns out the original answer didn’t work. I have worked with engineers like you, and they are uniformly terrible to work with.

    2. You are a terrible manager. Sorry about your strokes, but you need to either learn how to manage that hair-trigger or accept that you need to step aside and either retire or take some kind of solo technical role. Management training most everywhere is a joke, yes, but you don’t need a two-day seminar to be told that yelling at professionals is the absolute worst way to get anything done.

    Signed,
    Starfleet HVAC Engineer
    Licensed Professional Engineer in NV, CA, UT, AZ, FL, IL, KY

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