my friend has terrible judgment, and I’ve encouraged it

by Alison Green on January 15, 2025

A reader writes:

A few years ago, I got a promotion in a different country. The organization I had previously worked at went through a re-structure and my position was eliminated. My good friend Suzie was promoted into a position that was very similar to my former position, but higher on the org chart and with more responsibility. We stayed in touch, mostly as friends, but with cheerleading and mentoring from the sidelines too.

This role was a big jump in responsibility for Suzie; she essentially leapfrogged quite a few positions. Complicating matters is the fact that the organization is an incredibly toxic work environment. Decades of very poor decisions and bullying behavior from senior management means there is a lot of distrust and a real us vs. them culture. It is really not possible for someone in Suzie’s position to do much about the culture; without meaningful change from the board and higher-ups, things will not change. For these reasons, I knew that Suzie would have challenges, but she had worked for the org for a long time, knew what she was in for, and has always been confident in her abilities as a manager.

Over the years, Suzie will sometimes call to vent, and I’ve always supported her. When she brought in a new policy that was not well received, I empathized; that group of employees never reacts to change well. You do the best you can to make everyone feel their complaints are heard, and then you tell them that the decision is made and they need to move on.

When she needed to take some time off and “have a break” and people were grumbling about her taking PTO, I told her she deserved her PTO and should model a good work-life balance for her team.

When she started to feel like everyone hated her and was always criticizing her, I told her not to worry; she’s the face of a problem culture, and she needs to just do her best to be fair and a good leader, and try not to take it personally when people who are traumatized and miserable can’t see her efforts.

I thought my advice was solid, based on my knowledge of Suzie and the company. But I’ve just moved back to the city, and realized I’m quite off-base. I’ve heard from many former colleagues, and seen evidence myself, that Suzie is, well, a bit of a mess. She has made some appalling decisions and displayed really questionable judgement.

That policy she made? She didn’t get any feedback before she created it or rolled it out, and it’s caused huge problems and slowed down processes across the org. When people try to raise it with her, they’re told “the decision has been made and they just need to move on.”

That PTO she took? It was in the middle of a huge and important project. Pipelines got stuck because she wasn’t there to approve and give feedback, and hadn’t set up a contingency approval structure. Then to add insult to injury, she posted photos all over social media of herself at what was basically a sex festival. (No judgment of what she does in her spare time, but it’s not really a restful weekend, and posting it was very tone-deaf. It’s also really not aligned with the values of the org.) People are demonstrably more unhappy now than they were when I was there, and they feel their complaints are never heard or taken seriously. Many people have left, so those who are still there are burnt out and feeling incredibly unsupported.

I realize I’ve contributed to the problem indirectly, because I’ve been Suzie’s champion and encouraged her decisions. My question is two-fold. First, what can I do from my position of unofficial mentor to get Suzie to be more aware of her actions, especially when she’s used to hearing nothing but encouragement from me? And secondly, how can I avoid this in the future? I realize now that whenever I give advice to people, it’s always based on their perspective of the issue, and I don’t have the nuance to give informed advice or opinions.

To some extent this is always an issue with advice-giving; you’re only hearing one side of the story and it may be biased or missing important details. You can try to dig by asking questions like, “What do you think Person X’s perspective is, and why do you think they think that?” But some people will always be unreliable narrators and you won’t always be able to spot them. (Sometimes that’s intentional on their side; they want sympathy and support and so shape the way they tell the story to get that. Other times, people just don’t realize what details would be important to mention; we see that all the time in letters here.) When you give advice, you can caveat it with “There may be internal politics in your company that would change this” or “Based just on what you’re saying and without knowing the perspectives of other people involved” … but it’s never going to be perfect, because people are imperfect narrators.

However! I do think it’s worth asking whether you leaned into supporting Suzie unconditionally without questioning her version of things at all. It’s really easy to do that when you know someone’s employer sucks; when management is incompetent, it makes it easy to assume they’re always wrong and the person you like is always right. Plus, you wanted to be supportive of a friend. But since you’re reassessing it now, you could look at whether you overlooked facts that should have jumped out more or if you dismissed things that didn’t sound quite right. If you realize that you did, that’s useful info for next time (with anyone, not just with Suzie).

There’s also a question of whether you were trying to be more mentor than friend. A mentor does have a responsibility to not only cheerlead, but also to point out blind spots and nudge when someone’s perspective might benefit from a shift. Personally, I believe good friends should do that too … but with a casual friend, I don’t think you’re as obligated to do what can be fairly heavy lifting.

Still, though, you don’t want to feel like you’ve encouraged bad decisions, which it sounds like is ultimately what happened here. So the takeaway might be to remind yourself that you never have the full scope of a story you’re hearing secondhand, that there might be other perspectives in play, and that most people can benefit from advice that encourages them to consider how someone else might tell the story.

As for how to approach Suzie on all this now … one option is to start asking things like, “How do you think Person X would tell their side of it?” and “If you wanted to make your staff feel more heard, what would help?” and “What input are you getting internally on this?” And you can start saying things like, “I can’t say for sure that this is what’s going on, but it sounds to me like…” and “Hmmm, the other way to look at this is…” or “I was once struggling with this and it turned out I’d overlooked X.” Who knows, maybe she’ll find that helpful! But whether she does or doesn’t, I think you’ll feel like you’re engaging more responsibly with a situation that you now realize you don’t know as well as you thought!

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  1. Brandon*

    I would also add telling Suzie that edicts can revised, reversed or eliminated completely as needed.

  2. Sloanicota*

    Wait … OP am I understanding that you were let go from a role, and then Suzy got a similar-but-promoted version of your old role? I think that was already a sign to step back a bit, not be on the sidelines giving advice. Not a lot of people have zero hard feelings about being laid off, and it sounds like this kept you entangled into your old messy org, and that contributed to bias in your advice and perspective.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      My understanding is that OP was no longer in that role, and hadn’t been for a while. It’s just the position they used to hold (before leaving and going to whatever organization they were promoted at in a different country), was eliminated at OP’s former company.

      I don’t think OP was laid off at all.

    2. Unwatered Office Plant*

      I took it to mean that she had left the messy company for a new job, then got a promotion at the new job that moved her to a different country. The messy company then restructured, eliminating her former position and creating the new one that Suzy took.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Ah, thank you both, that explanation makes more sense and fits better with OP wanting to remain engaged. I also work with messy nonprofits and for me I’d still recommend a clean break when you leave, but I understand how it happens.

        1. Lionheart26*

          OP here. that’s right, I was offered a step up position somewhere else, not laid off. When I left, they decided to restructure rather than replace my exact position.

    1. Mesquito*

      right? it’s the “basically” qualifier in “basically a sex festival” that’s got my interest. Seems like most events either are a sex festival or they’re not – this middle ground is intriguing

      3. Annie Edison*

        I was thinking Burning Man or something similar? It’s not technically a sex festival but those sorts of things do take place there

          1. L.H. Puttgrass*

            Is there a “Abstinence Yay!” festival?

            …oh, who am I kidding. There would absolutely be sex at an “Abstinence Yay!” festival.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              That is the first place I would look for the sex, to be honest.

              “The Society of People Who Own Sex Toy Shops” I would expect to be a lot more “When we say this workshop is on how to properly file taxes when selling across state lines, that is quite literal. There is a power point, tables of rates for different states, and the really exciting part is when it’s not a state but a territory.”

              1. Reluctant Mezzo*

                I think I went to that one to explain why it’s a good idea to file a Schedule A if there are any Oregon facilities…

      4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Yeah, that’s a puzzler.

        A 30-year-old going to spring break to hook up with college students?
        Burning Man?
        An adults-only anything-goes resort?
        A Stanley Kubrick convention with Eyes Wide Shut cosplay?

      5. Jellyfish Catcher*

        We need details, in order to judge whether it was a “basic” sorta sex festival or a
        “let the good times roll” sex festival.

      6. Observer*

        Seems like most events either are a sex festival or they’re not – this middle ground is intriguing

        Think of something like Burning Man. It is *definitely* not billed that way, and it’s true that a LOT of other stuff goes on there. But I could easily see someone describing it that way.

      7. wanda*

        Probably something like the Folsom Street Fair. You’re not supposed to have sex right there in the streets, but it’s all about dressing up and sex.

      8. Lionheart26*

        hahahahahahaha OP here. I can’t say too much without outing our location and possibly Suzie herself, but there is a very famous venue in a neighbouring city that has a reputation for certain proclivities, and the venue was hosting a multi-day event. The ‘basically’ was referring to the word festival, because it’s not technically a festival… the sex part is a ‘definitely’.

      9. Freya*

        My immediate thought was Kanamara Matsuri, which is a Japanese festival that raises money for HIV research and is phallus-themed.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              Like on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, when Valencia started offering a yoga class that was just an hour of corpse pose because she was burnt out, and there turned out to be a real demand for that.

            3. murderbot*

              Restival is indeed the name of a retreat for folks with long covid! Probably it’s used elsewhere too, but that’s where I’ve encountered it. @Falling Diphthong, Elitest Semicolon, and Not The Earliest Bird – I believe yoga nidra is in fact a large part of Restival!

          2. FricketyFrack*

            Ok but if someone wants to start a restival, I will absolutely attend. Real bathrooms, comfy beds that aren’t on the ground (but could still be in a tent, that part is ok), shows that start at like, 9am, have a nap break at noon, then go again from 2-6 or so, then everyone goes off to have dinner and read or meditate or whatever, then sleep? Ideal, honestly. Where are the festivals for the middle aged who are too tired to watch a show until 11 or 12 and then drive home and go to work in the morning??

            2. The Prettiest Curse*

              There is a trend in UK clubs for “middle-aged raves” where everyone gets to go home by around 10pm, so there’s definitely a market for this sort of thing. A few of the summer festivals in the UK are known for being family-friendly and very chilled – the Latitude festival in Suffolk is one that comes to mind.

    3. AAM Enjoyer*

      My queer self initially thought of the Castro Street Fair in San Francisco, but that’s not until October. Maybe a copycat festival?

      1. Tio*

        Well, it sounds like the PTO was taken in the past, since she already posted pictures and everything according to LW, so nothing’s really off the table

    4. soontoberetired*

      there are such thing as fetish conventions. Why do I know? Because a former member of my division attended a particular one and then told her teammates about it with pictures. They were disturbed. they wouldn’t go to HR though because that person was friends with the head of the division. Eventually the fetish person was let go, as was her friend the boss so it became a non issue. I heard about the convention when I said I didn’t understand why people had trouble with the convention goer – I only worked with her occasionally.

      1. Ms. Norbury*

        Yeah, my mind went immediately to some kind of fetish convention or adult industry event that’s open to the public.

        1. soontoberetired*

          I had no idea there were fetish conventions when I heard the story. I was so naive then. :)

      2. Anax*

        Indeed. I’m definitely thinking about Wasteland in Berlin/Amsterdam, if anyone’s dying for an example to google. (… probably not while at work, but the wikipedia page is fairly tame.)

    6. Beka Rosselin-Metadi*

      I’m glad I’m not the only one asking for friend. Or, to be honest, myself. What is this festival and how come this is the first I’ve heard of it? Do I just not hang out with this crowd? I probably don’t, really.

    7. County Fair Fan*

      My first guess was the Oregon Country Fair. I haven’t been, but read about it when I was looking for fun county fairs in Oregon. My impression is that it’s pretty risque and NOT your typical “funnel cakes and ferris wheel” fair.

      1. Frieda*

        Oh man, my cousin used to try to get me to come visit him in Oregon to go to that. I was absolutely under the impression that it was like a county fair but with more hippies. I was picturing people selling tie dye and handmade candles.

        My *cousin.*

    9. Princess Sparklepony*

      Glad to see I didn’t have to scroll down too far to find that. I was wondering as well. For a friend, of course!

          1. Selina Luna*

            Really? I went to the Arizona Renaissance Festival in Apache Junction, AZ, and it definitely had the vibe of “we’re all sexy behind the scenes.”

          2. Language Lover*

            I read a bit about the TX ren faire when the HBO documentary came out and discovered there is a huge after-hours sex culture there in the camping ground.

            Groups section off areas for different types of kink-focused sex parties.

            You can still go as a family and avoid the X-rated extra curricular activities but people make trecks specifically to partake in them.

            1. RussianInTexas*

              Yes. The Texas Ren Fest is pretty widely known for this. The camping grounds are separated into family friendly and decidedly…not.
              Even during the regular hours, there are plenty of performances that are borderline NSFW.
              And then there is the Chainmail Show, every day right after the parade. The folks show off their chainmail creations from the balcony above the chainmail shop, and there is absolutely no prerequisite to wear anything underneath the chainmail. For women or men.

              1. Princess Sparklepony*

                I feel like I’ve lived a really sheltered life.

                The ren fairs I went to in the 80s just had turkey legs, mead, blacksmithing, and some faux jousting shows.

                There is an entire wild world out there!

      2. Meep*

        We went last year and there were definitely some cosplayers who were not there in the spirit of the old Ren Faire (which can be raunchy, but is not the entire point), so I could see it being another lapse of judgement. /shrug

        1. Tio*

          Oh I saw loads of those! Dragonball, sailor moon, devil may cry, avatar… I was surprised. But I wouldn’t classify that as “basically a sex festival” in any way lol

        2. Bi One, Get One*

          We have a guy who comes to our state Ren Faire in his entire latex pony play outfit. I don’t know if he’s been officially Spoken To about appropriate attire, but it’s been 90 degrees or more the past few years and he cannot be comfortable in all that black. He’s actually been booted from some local groups for, I’m assuming, an appalling lack of judgement.

  5. ferrina*

    There’s a good chance that Suzie would have done all the same things with or without OP’s support. OP helped Suzie feel justified and that’s not great, but if OP had said “That sounds fishy, I don’t believe you”, Suzie would have probably found someone else to emotionally reassure her.

    I sympathize with OP though- it’s jarring when you realize that you were that wrong about someone’s character.

    1. Myrin*

      Yeah, all while reading, I was wondering how much influence OP’s advice/positive words really had on Suzie. I mean, they probably encouraged her but it also sounds like she would’ve gone forward with her ideas and stances anyway.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, at worst, OP gave her a script for shutting down objections to the bad process that probably isn’t all that far off what she could have come up on her own.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Yeah, I think this is more giving oneself a few lashings with a wet noodle to in future give advice that’s more “Well, have you really thought of everything?” Based on realizing that you were not being given important context.

        OP, Suzie might have sought you out precisely because you were distant and so only hearing the details she wanted you to have.

    2. PlainJane*

      That’s my take, too. I think I’d feel bad, like OP does, but I got the impression this had become more a bestie situation than a mentor situation, and those rules are kind of different. (That said, I think some besties might benefit from learning to approach the situation gently. “Oh, that’s an interesting idea. How has it been working? Oh… there are some problems? That’s too bad. Anything fixable?”)

      An actual mentor should be there on the ground though, and be able to say, “Suzie, I know where you were trying to go with this, but here’s how we could have approached it differently. And the experiment you tried was bold, but it didn’t work, so it’s time to scrap it.”

      As to the PTO? Festivals are held when they are held, and if she wanted to go to it, using the PTO was fine, even during a project. Posting pics on her social was… well, depending on the pics, probably fine. What she needed to do was establish the pipelines and who would be covering what while she was gone. That’s a problem even if it’s not a Big and Important project ™. If you get sick and no one knows how to, I don’t know, call the copy machine repair guys–or no one knows who’s authorized to do it–that can be a fairly nasty problem for a day or two. Lines of authority folks. Delegation. It’s a thing.

      1. BethDH*

        But it sounds like she didn’t delegate before going, and at the level it sounds like she’s at, she should have. It’s not like she wouldn’t have known ahead of time about this. You also get to a level in many industries where “don’t take time off for non-emergencies during this particular crunch time” is normal and reasonable.

        1. PlainJane*

          Yeah, that’s what I’m saying–the problem is not taking the PTO, even during the project. That’s totally okay. The not delegating the authority to do things? That’s definitely not okay. But since OP only knew about the PTO, then it’s perfectly reasonable to say “You have the right to take PTO.” I was mostly responding to her being upset at the concept that Suzie *took* the PTO rather than at Suzie not having properly delegated her tasks during PTO. (Which is weirdly common. Sometimes, you get things that have to go through a certain person for whatever reason, and that person goes on break and figures, “Hey, I’ll take care of it all when I get back.” That’s weird.)

    3. H.Regalis*

      Same. It’s definitely not fun to find out your friend is actually being a huge asshole, but Suzie is responsible for her own behavior and likely would have done the same things regardless of the LW’s advice.

    4. LL*

      Yeah, seriously. If Suzie is doing these things in the first place, it’s likely she’d find a way to justify them to herself w/out OP’s encouragement.

    5. Smithy*

      Absolutely yes to this – and I also think it’s fine to realize that someone you met at work as a colleague now operates as a friend only?

      I worked in a uniquely chaotic and toxic workplace for 3.5 years, and as a result it was not uncommon for a lot of trauma bonding with peers going through similar dysfunction. Looking back from that period, there’s one person who’s a good friend and who I would be happy to work with again. There’s another who’s a good friend, but I don’t think he’s amazing in our field. Nothing unethical or illegal that I’d feel compelled to warn his employers, but not someone I’d want to work with again or who I’d personally recommend. Then there’s a third who everyone stopped speaking to because it was clear she had her own person dysfunction, and a fourth who’s entirely professionally competent but we’re not actually close personally. But when we all worked together, as coworkers – we were each other’s survival group and it was easy to feel protective and sympathetic to folks because our management was so poor.

      One of the worst parts of working in a place that’s truly messed up, is that it can alter how we view our professional lives because everything is topsy turvy. And this can include how we perceive our colleagues. Unfortunately, bad workplaces I think can really mess with junior staff with a lot of potential because they just don’t have that exposure to positive professional operating environments.

      I don’t think the OP needs to beat themselves up to contributing to how Suzie choose to behave. But I do think it’s a solid reminder as to why leaving toxic environments can be good for folks like Suzie, even if they are offered good growth opportunities. It can teach or reinforce some really bad behaviors that just get harder and harder to unlearn as well as burn bridges we used to have.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        So true! The part about being loyal to one’s “survival group” really struck home with me. Unfortunately, it can be one of the things that keeps people stuck in those toxic companies–the feeling that you can’t abandon your “dear friends” in that horrible place.

    6. N C Kiddle*

      LW even says Suzie was calling “to vent”, which suggests to me that constructive criticism wasn’t requested and wouldn’t have been taken on board. I don’t think LW did anything wrong, although they’d probably feel better about themselves if they reacted a lot more neutrally to the venting going forward. “Oh that sounds difficult, what do you think you’re going to do?” and so on.

      1. BethDH*

        My sense is that OP may be more reacting to realizing how off her own perception was than the encouragement specifically. I would personally be upset by that feeling even with no ill effects at all.
        I don’t think OP should feel bad about the effect on Suzie for reasons everyone’s already mentioned, but that’s sort of separate.

    2. Heidi*

      I would also prepare for Suzie to be upset. She already feels like everyone is against her, and to have someone she relies on to be on her side do a 180 and tell her she’s been going at this all wrong is going to sting.

    3. Boof*

      I was hoping someone would suggest this! LW, is there a reason you want to stay in Suzie’s good graces? Because I’d seriously consider telling her “whoa, now that I’ve talked with other people the advice I gave was all wrong; you really need to respect the people around you more and talk through any decisions carefully “ – and bail if suzie doesn’t like that

  7. Ok corral*

    “Based just on what you’re saying and without knowing the perspectives of other people involved”

    Would be nice if AAM letters got this kind of caveat now and again instead of “LWs must be believed at all costs”

    1. Varthema*

      Come on, Alison adds this caveat to her advice ALL the time… the reason it’s the rule for the comments is because otherwise it’d become a fanfic fest, which happens anyway.

      1. Crooked Bird*

        And Allison calls LWs out herself plenty, as well. (Or, if not *plenty* of callouts, at least some callouts and plenty of moderating, think-it-over-first advice.)

    2. Tio*

      The main reason for the rule I think is that even with it people here will still spin off into one-in-a-million-odds cases that the letters give no indication of being the situation

      1. Tea Monk*

        Yea like ” Ok maybe Fergie bit you but I knew a lady with vampirism which is a rare disability “. or something

    5. Meep*

      If that were the case, there wouldn’t be any posts where the LW get (rightfully) torn apart in the comments.

    6. Looper*

      I think the function of this, if not most, advice columns is to provide general advice for the situation presented by the advice seeker in a way that a reader may also find helpful in similar situations. I don’t feel the aim is to suss out which advice seekers are liars, which are actually worthy of sympathy, etc. despite how the comment section often devolves.

      1. Mango*

        yeah, and Alison is not our friend. She’s probably a lot less likely to lean into unconditional support mode than someone giving advice to a friend.

    8. Irish Teacher.*

      I don’t think it’s so much that “LWs must be believed at all costs.” More that if we start assuming they are lying about x or y, then well, you can get to “but what if the LW is really a fox and lying about being human?” or “what if the annoying coworker doesn’t even exist or is their pet cat?”

      It’s not unusual for people to respond with “do you know x happened of your own knowledge or are you just believing y?” or to point out that the other party may have seen things differently. People certainly didn’t believe the LW who insisted the intern had lied about their coworker using her credit cards after stealing her jacket or the LW who was convinced a long-term employee was “toxic” because their new BFF new employee said so. And people rightly pointed out that the people who assumed the LW who took an orange juice did so knowing it belonged to somebody else weren’t being unreasonable and people even raised questions about whether that LW really did believe it was there to be taken.

      But it’s not really productive to start doubting LWs without something in the letter that suggests they either may not have the full story or may be fudging issues because…well, all we have is their word on anything and if we start assuming “but what if they are lying about X?” we can get to “what if none of this happened at all?”

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        Yes, and we also have to remember that the OPs can only tell us what they actually know! Sometimes in the updates, it’s very clear that there was a lot of stuff going on that the OP either didn’t or couldn’t have known about.

      2. N C Kiddle*

        It also makes a big difference whether an LW is reporting facts or something more vibes based. If they said “my manager said nobody in this company uses their PTO and it’s frowned on”, replies of “I can’t believe anyone would say that, you must be making that up” would be shot down saying “take the LW at their word.” But if they said “my manager said we should use PTO when we need to, but she had a mean look on her face that makes me think she doesn’t mean that”, there would be a lot more questioning and pointing out that there are all sorts of explanations for a mean look and not to jump to conclusions.

      3. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, the reason for the rule is because the comments section kept getting derailed with a bunch of people just straight-out calling the LW a liar or not a real person, which is *incredibly boring*.

        “My boss walked in on me pumping and I’m so embarrassed.” “NO HE DIDN’T!”
        “My coworker talks to themselves and its distracting.” “LYING!”
        “My new boss is someone I once had a one-night stand with.” “NOT POSSIBLE FAKE LYING LYING LYING LIAR!”

  8. AAM Enjoyer*

    My queer self initially thought of the Castro Street Fair in San Francisco, but that’s not until October. Maybe a copycat festival?

    1. AAM Enjoyer*

      Apologies, this was supposed to be in response to the person asking what “basically a sex festival” is supposed to be.

    2. That Paralegal*

      There’s also Decadence in New Orleans. Not a copycat, but there’s a LOT of sex happening.

    3. Carly*

      The PTO was in the past so it seems possible!! Is it bad that if if that’s what it is I’m inclined to be immediately more sympathetic to Suzie lol

      2. KateM*

        I think also “having a break from intensive work” and “having a restful weekend” are not synonyms in any way. Doing something opposite to what you are normally doing may help more than just sleeping at home.

    4. Tech worker*

      Don’t beat yourself up OP, I’ve been there! I used to work closely with someone (“Annie”) who was really difficult to work with. When I transferred teams and they hired a replacement for me (“Beth”), I wasn’t surprised at all when Beth, who I was mentoring in her new role, was also having serious issues working with Annie (more serious than the issues I encountered). I comforted Beth and sympathized with her, since the story in my head was that Annie was an extremely hard person to work with so of course Beth was in the right. This was despite the fact that I had questioned Beth’s judgment in a couple of other instances and even in Beth’s version of the story, she started the conflict by saying something to Annie that was very aggressive. It was a red flag I ignored because I wasn’t being objective.

      Eventually I got the whole story and realized that although Annie did not handle the conflict well from her side either, their conflict was definitely more the fault of Beth’s than Annie’s. It was a lesson for me to try to understand the details of a situation objectively and not jump to assumptions based on past experiences.

  9. Varthema*

    In fairness, it sounds like the advice given was all valid –

    “You do the best you can to make everyone feel their complaints are heard, and then you tell them that the decision is made and they need to move on.”

    “I told her she deserved her PTO and should model a good work-life balance for her team.”

    All of this is true and the fact that it wasn’t implemented properly (or at *all*, in the case of the first one) is not LW’s fault. But it does seem to be an indication that giving the advice is not really worth her time since it’s not landing.

    1. Tio*

      I think it’s less that the advice wasn’t valid and more that if OP had known the full context and circumstances they would have offered different advice – as I would have.

      I wonder if OP thinks Suzie would react poorly if she said “Hey I heard some context about this advice I gave you and with that added info I think I would revise my advice and suggest you-” etc. Some people can hear that and some can’t.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        The lack of context given by Suzie to OP makes me think this was less a case of a mentee seeking a mentor’s wisdom, and more “Who is far removed from the awkward details and will tell me to trust my judgment and go for it?”

    2. Flouise Belcher*

      I think this is where I fall. The LW gave good advice based on the information she had. It’s I think she can cut herself some slack and take it as a sign that Suzie may not be a reliable narrator and take Alison’s advise on things to consider when giving advice (to anyone) in the future.

      1. Lydia*

        Exactly this. ALL of us make the best decisions we can with the information we have. And if LW trusted Suzie, then this isn’t a case of giving bad advice so much as it’s a case of Suzie not being as trustworthy as the LW thought.

        1. Consonance*

          I’d bet that some of the bad feeling LW has right now isn’t just that they gave “bad” advice, but that there’s some amount of friendship betrayal they’re experiencing from Suzie. They trusted her to be more reasonable. LW was giving advice in good faith and now is realizing it wasn’t taken/implemented in good faith. As someone who takes personal responsibility for things, they’re now blaming themselves for this betrayal.

    3. Erika*

      “You do the best you can to make everyone feel their complaints are heard, and then you tell them that the decision is made and they need to move on.”

      Is bad advice, partially because the resulting outcomes:

      “it’s caused huge problems and slowed down processes across the org. When people try to raise it with her, they’re told “the decision has been made and they just need to move on.””

      “People are demonstrably more unhappy now than they were when I was there, and they feel their complaints are never heard or taken seriously. Many people have left, so those who are still there are burnt out and feeling incredibly unsupported.”

      are likely results of taking such a heavy-handed approach.

      1. Varthema*

        But then in that case she didn’t take the advice – she DIDN’T hear people out, either truly or even making them feel as though they had been. In an org where you’re a middle manager of the variety that has very little decision-making power, and especially if you know that the upper management is dysfunctional, I still think the advice stands, with the caveat of taking every opportunity *that makes sense* to pass on your reports’ concerns.

      2. Roland*

        That’s not really OP’s problem though. Of course I understand why OP doesn’t feel great, but it’s not her fault or responsibility. She doesn’t work there. Those outcomes are the result of the friend taking whatever actions she took. “OP told me to” is not a valid defense.

        Like, when my BFF talks about her job, I don’t feel like it’s my responsibility to ask enough questions so that my advice produces an optimal outcome for her boss. If she misrepresented something, well maybe my advice won’t be as helpful to *her* as it could have been, but it’s not my fault if it causes problems for her boss.

        1. knitted feet*

          Right, exactly this. Suzie’s job performance is not LW’s responsibility. If Suzie’s senior leadership team come down on her for all this, she will not be able to get off the hook by saying “But LW told me it was OK!”

          I can see why LW doesn’t feel good about this, but it’s objectively Suzie’s fault and Suzie’s responsibility. Suzie misrepresented situation and misapplied advice. LW can’t be expected to go on a whole fact-finding mission every time she catches up with a friend.

  10. Peanut Hamper*

    The thing about asking other people for advice is that you should never just act on it without reflection. You know a lot more about your situation than someone on the outside looking in, and so you need to think about whether the advice you are given is actually appropriate to your particular issue.

    It sounds like Suzie was looking for empathy, LW gave it, and Suzie took it as advice and said to herself “Yeah, okay, that’s what I’ll do then” without actually thinking about whether or not it was appropriate or correct. It also sounds like Suzie didn’t offer a lot of context about what she was doing. I would put most of this if not all of it on Suzie, not LW.

    1. 2e asteroid*

      The best bit of meta-advice I’ve ever heard is, “whenever someone gives you advice, carefully consider both following that advice and doing the exact opposite.”

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        My favorite AITA update was “Well. The people saying NTA were so terrible that I figured I had better listen to the YTA people instead.”

        1. Lydia*

          That demonstrates a level of awareness the people submitting AITA questions frequently are missing.

    2. Looper*

      I also got the read by the description at the beginning of the letter that LW and Suzie are friends first and foremost and that this is in no way a formal mentor relationship. To me, the best thing about not working with friends is that you can be your full “work persona” when at work and your friends can know the non-work you. Maybe that persona sucks! But LW’s advice was valid for a friend, and it would be just as valid if LW quietly decided to scale back on work advising, not mention what she’d heard, and keep the friendship non-work focused.

  11. Discombobulated and Tired*

    I feel like OP is worried that they somehow unconsciously were sabotaging their friend’s career, and I’d suggest that friend did that all by herself. But also, if it were me I’d switch from advice to “Yes, that does sound very frustrating/exciting/an interesting choice. Let me know how it works out.” From personal experience: I moved on and up from a team that a friend and I started working on while she is still there 20 years later, so at first I tried giving her advice and tried to help her see how she was making bad choices and blaming her boss/the system, but once I saw she’s determined to continue sabotaging herself, I chose to step back and it saved my sanity and our friendship. Again, that’s just me. If OP’s friend is seeking advice, Alison’s probing questions will certainly help them provide good advice.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Ted Chiang had a short story (Anxiety is the Dizziness of Freedom) about divergent timelines. A minor plot was about a woman being hit up, again, for money by an old school friend based on guilt for ruining the friend’s life back when they were 15. Exactly what went down varied in each version–one was caught, one got away, both caught, both got away, etc. In every version, the friend’s life then went off the rails to a series of bad decisions, and in every version, the friend blamed this on the woman who should have done something different then, if she had then friend’s life would have been different.

      OP, I don’t think she was actually making her decisions based on your advice.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          He’s a great writer, really skilled at distilling down “What if this one thing?” and then following that through.

    2. Looper*

      I second this fully. They are friends, not coworkers. LW can release herself from caring about Suzie’s work life and just order another round of margs and get the details on that sex fest.

  12. sample10*

    Sometimes people (intentionally or not) share parts of stories because they want reassurance and not advice.

    I’d take some blame off yourself. It sounds like your friend was not giving you the full picture here .

    1. Kay Tee*

      Agreed, especially if Suzie is calling to “vent” as LW says. She’s framing the whole conversation and story in a way that will get her the validation she’s seeking. Moving forward, you should consider whether you can or should provide it! But that’s a difficult and distinct moral question from “I gave bad advice, how do I take it back”?

  13. Lisa*

    LW, I think you need to back off from being an advice-giver for Suzie. Just be friends and don’t bring work into it.

    1. Uhura*

      I agree, sounds like LW thinks she was Suzie’s mentor, but I doubt Suzie thinks that. Sounds more like Suzie was venting to LW as a friend, not looking to LW for career guidance.

  15. Observer*

    I want to agree that you are probably not even 1% of the cause of your friend’s misbehavior.

    But, for future reference, I think that Alison’s advice, if you do decide to provide advice to her or anyone else, is good. Ask some qualifying questions. Put in some caveats as appropriate. And, with your friend, remind her that you are more “cheer leader” and “adviser”.

  16. Numbat*

    LW, perhaps you can add to the list of your friend’s bad decisions: “only listening to the advice and perspective of one friend who always seems to be on my side”. Don’t take on too much responsibility for her choices.

  17. Bossy*

    Just listened to a podcast where stupid compassion vs intelligent compassion was discussed. Of course most of us do the stupid, having only one side of any story and feeling we should always be on our persons side. I know I have leaned HARD into this in the past and actually stopped, mostly because hearing the same thing over and over from people makes you realize they are likely the problem. Good to really be able to see the problem with this kind of blind support.

    1. Crooked Bird*

      That is such an interesting distinction. I think we’re not supposed to post links, but do you have a name/title/search terms for this podcast?

  18. learnedthehardway*

    Starting to realize that my approach to giving advice by asking questions of “What would happen if you did X?” has probably been a good one. At any rate, it forces the other person to think things through themselves, rather than take my idea of doing X at face value.

    Realistically, OP – Suzie didn’t tell you the full context in which she was making these decisions. That omission – whether deliberate or a subconscious impulse – means that she really did not want to hear reasonable advice for the situation. She wanted someone to validate what she was already going to do.

    If she had said, “I’m in the middle of a critical project and it’s vital to my and other people’s careers, and to our business’ success this year. Should I take a major holiday in the middle of it?”, you would have told her that she should time her vacation carefully to meet her needs and those of the company. Or you would have said that while she is entitled to vacation, she should wait until the end of the project, unless the company habitually made it impossible to take vacations. Or something more nuanced than “Everyone is entitled to vacation time” – which is true, but perhaps not the right approach in the situation.

    At any rate – don’t beat yourself up about this. As much as you have the responsibility to give advice in good faith, it is the recipient’s responsibility to give you the full context, and to make rational, reasonable decisions – including ignoring advice that is not correct for their particular situation.

  19. Suze*

    Firstly, it sounds like OP was more of a friend and mentor, so it is understandable that they assumed their friend was reasonable and had good intentions. Secondly, it sounds like Susie deliberately hid important context when seeking OP’s advice, so I don’t think the poor results are OP’s fault. Susie just wanted someone who would agree with her, so I think she would have reacted defensively if OP tried to dig in more. Wondering if OP ever tried asking Susie for advice? That might have shed light on her poor judgement.

  20. Zarniwoop*

    “I’ve never worked as hard as I’ve had to this past year, due to layoffs and terrible clients. It’s so demoralizing working until 11 pm sometimes and still be expected to be cheery the next morning in-office for the benefit of an out-of-touch CEO.”
    Sounds like your best bet for how to deal with this problem is to GTFO and let it be someone else’s problem.

  21. Zippity Doodah*

    “You do the best you can to make everyone feel their complaints are heard, and then you tell them that the decision is made and they need to move on.”

    I’m sure that someone, somewhere, in some exotic locale has said this and been a reasonable boss, but it’s still a huge red flag. Making people feel heard, but not making any real effort to hear them or consider their concerns, should be an extraordinary step and not a routine one.

    1. Education Mic*

      But if you’re not making a real effort to hear them, they’re not going to feel heard. It’s the same thing. Not even different words for the same thing. Just the same thing.

  22. Lionheart26*

    Hi OP here, thanks all for the comments. I agree, I don’t think my advice has swayed Suzie in any way…. It was just very jarring to come back and find out that things are SO different to what I thought, and I really feel for other friends who are still there. But, not my monkeys.

    The advice to just focus on friendship with Suzie is solid, and what I have basically been doing.

    It’s not the first time I’ve been shocked when a situation is very different to what was represented to me, which is why I wrote. Making sure to pause and consider other sides of the story is definitely an area for growth!

    1. KateM*

      What caught my eye was this:

      That PTO she took? It was in the middle of a huge and important project. […]but it’s not really a restful weekend

      Did she really have to take PTO to have a weekend off? You did say it was a toxic workplace, but is that what it takes to have any day off at all during a huge project – using your PTO?

    2. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      It’s a good thing to go back and evaluate one’s actions when a mistake occurs but there’s a pitfall there too – analysis paralysis. Second guessing yourself too much or deciding not to do or say anything risky is a trap I know I’m all too guilty of (learning a setting between Full Speed Ahead and All Stop is ongoing).

      When my best friend is ranting about work of course I support her, unless it’s very clear she’s acting badly. You did nothing wrong.

    3. Elbe*

      If you have the type of relationship with Suzie that would support a frank conversation (and the willingness to take any hit to the friendship that may result), it would be a kindness to gently let her know that her behavior could be better. This type of gap in judgement can really hold a person back in their career, and it’s something most people probably aren’t going to flag to her. Of course, you’re not obligated to do anything, and staying out of it is a 100% valid approach, too.

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