my new boss told me not to take all my PTO each year

by Alison Green on January 13, 2025

A reader writes:

I recently landed a job offer at a large global company after taking a year off. The job search was a tough one, but after some bumps in the road I was pretty excited about this company and accepted their offer. I ended up negotiating for additional vacation time (four weeks) to match my last role, which they granted.

I really liked the people and company culture throughout the interview process. The only minor critique would be that the process took much longer than expected on their side (an additional two months) due to vacations and holidays. I took it to be a good sign that their employees actually disconnected while out. I have a big family vacation that I’ve had planned for about a year coming up a few months after I start, and I notified them of this when I accepted the offer.

I start in about two weeks, and my future boss called me for what I thought would be a “welcome to the team” call. While she was pleasant and welcoming, she spent the majority of the call expressing surprise over this time-off notification from me, and told me that while my vacation was approved, I “shouldn’t expect to use all of my vacation time” each year. She shared her own story how she lost allotted days this past year, and since they don’t roll over or pay them out, she called it “giving them back to the company.”

I am pretty deflated, and my excitement has been dampened. I absolutely planned to take all of my vacation, as I negotiated for this in lieu of negotiating salary. I completely understand not taking PTO at crunch times, but as she explained it the area is understaffed and it’s always very fast-paced and busy.

This is my first job after a very toxic workplace and while I’ve worked hard on healing, I’m terrified to walk into another. How big of a red flag is this and is there any recourse I can take to ensure I’m able to take my negotiated PTO?

It’s a big red flag.

She’s openly telling you that they don’t plan to give you the thing they promised you they would give you — the thing you negotiated instead of additional salary, and part of the reason you accepted the job.

And the idea that you shouldn’t use all your vacation time each year — leave that’s part of your compensation and doesn’t roll over to the next year — because you should instead “give back to the company” is offensive and ridiculous. It’s not that different than saying you’re expected to donate some of your salary back to the company, or to go without pricey medications so the company’s health insurance costs don’t go up.

Your vacation leave is part of your compensation. You negotiated that compensation, and they agreed to it.

I’m curious whether you negotiated that increase with the manager herself or with someone else, like HR. Either way, it might make sense to go back to HR now and say you’re receiving mixed signals about the compensation you thought had been agreed on, explain what the manager said, and ask them to clarify.

Alternately, you could go back to the manager and say something similar. For example: “I was concerned when we last spoke that you said you didn’t expect me to use the full amount of vacation leave the company agreed to when I accepted the job. I specifically negotiated additional leave in lieu of negotiating salary and took the company at its word when it agreed to X weeks, so I hoped we could clear that up and get on the same page before I start.”

Probably the best option of them all: say it to both HR and the manager in an email to both, so that she’s not going around them with her own, unsanctioned messaging.

Even after this, it’s possible that you could start this job and everything will be fine — that you can be assertive about taking the time you negotiated and that it won’t sour your relationship with your new manager in a significant way. Some red flags spell certain or near-certain doom, but I don’t think this one is as clear-cut if you’re assertive about what you negotiated.

But it’s also possible that she will hold it against you and/or will pressure you about vacation time in ways that significantly alter the conditions you thought you were accepting when you took the job. You won’t know until you start, and maybe not until after a few months go by.

But follow up on that conversation now and make it clear that you took the company at its word and need them to adhere to it. That gives you the best chance of holding on to what they agreed to.

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{ 179 comments }

{ 179 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. WhoKnows*

    Ooooh I REALLY want an update on this one. Because this is insane to say to someone who hasn’t even started yet. Presumably the hiring manager would have agreed to your extra vacation time ask during negotiations or you wouldn’t have gotten the job. But it says many more things about the culture of the place.

    Reply ↓
    1. tadobradziewczyna*

      Exactly – to say this to someone who hasn’t even started is wild to me. I would copy HR on the email and play innocent because this does not bode well.

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      1. Phony Genius*

        If anybody outside of HR was involved with the negotiation, such as the boss’s boss, they should also be copied.

        I hate to say this, but the LW needs to be prepared to walk away from the job. Their boss has indicated that they will not have the extra time off. Even if they are forced into approving it by HR or their superiors, their relationship will not be pleasant. The boss’s language about giving back to the company is a frequent indicator of a either a toxic workplace or a toxic island within an otherwise pleasant workplace, which the LW wants to avoid.

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        1. Blue Pen*

          Exactly. Even if the actual exchanges between the LW and the boss are OK, I wouldn’t be surprised if the boss built up some kind of resentment toward the LW over this, thus impacting the LW’s growth in the company, projects assigned, etc.

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      2. umami*

        Yeah, this sounds like a bait and switch that OP might want to walk away from if it doesn’t get corrected (and maybe even if it does, because the boss is likely to have an issue with that).

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    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’m hoping, for the OP’s sake, that everyone else at this company thinks this boss is a workaholic nutjob with a martyr complex.

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      1. Person from the Resume*

        That’s sort of the vibe I’m getting. And I hope this is true for the LW.

        The boss might be a martyr and a problem. But maybe she’s saying it trying to set the stage with LW because everyone ignores her requests not to use all their vacation and thinks she’s a loon.

        Really depends on if this a boss problem or a company side problem.

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      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yes, New Boss could just be Guacamole Betty or the equivalent of that employee who wrote in frustrated that their coworkers weren’t saving money the way they were, by walking long distances instead of taking an Uber, etc. If HR wasn’t difficult to negotiate extra vacation time with, it’s possible that Betty is just an outlier. So, I’d say it’s a red flag for the boss, not necessarily for the company.

        It sounds like OP needs this job, which is unfortunate because otherwise I’d say wait and find a job with a better vacation policy. But for now, I’d say take the job and if Betty comments on you taking all of your vacation time, just shrug and say, “Well, I have three more days of PTO so I’m taking it” and be very emotionless about it. If Betty keeps being annoying about it, say, “I can’t not take my vacation time but I can pay you back $5k of my salary if you want” and Betty might see how ridiculous she’s being. (Note: don’t say this, but keep in mind that, as AAM says, that’s pretty much exactly what she’s asking you to do.)

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        1. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

          Walking long distances instead of taking public transport! Also, loudly refusing to eat pizza that the company had purchased while working overtime that she deliberately “forgot” to put in to get properly paid for.

          I do hope that OP’s new manager is just one of those outliers, however in OP’s case, that manager is very much able to impose their weird beliefs on OP – and if OP gets HR to shut it down, to punish them with bad reviews, work assignments, etc.

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      3. JSPA*

        They absolutely exist! The most relevant question is whether the boss is the sole person who can approve or deny time off. If she’s high anxiety / nose-to-grindstone by default, but can be swayed by seeing strong work product, and she doesn’t control time off, then a few months may improve the dynamic markedly.

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      4. Aquamarine*

        I hope so too. I worry that the job is like my job, where there’s one urgent thing followed by the next urgent thing and not enough people to handle them. It’s so hard to plan vacation, and I end up not taking all of mine. If so, they were serious jerks for letting OP negotiate for more vacation time when it’s going to be super hard to actually use it.

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        1. Sloanicota*

          Yeah, sigh, after four years here I am taking a 10-day vacation (but that’s with Federal holidays and weekends). My boss is definitely freaking out now that it’s close. “Am I bringing my computer? Will I put Slack on my phone? What days am I going to be reachable?” I suspect she’s annoyed it’s so close to the holidays but I picked this time of year because it is slow and I have no deadlines. I think she just can’t grasp that she doesn’t really need me for anything.

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          1. StarTrek Nutcase*

            Similar happened to me where despite earning 4 wks/yr, my manager insisted I could take at most 6 work days at a time. After a coworker took 10 work days, I ignored the restriction. But I knew repercussions weren’t a factor (reasons). More importantly, our leave rolled over up to 10 wks and paid out on leaving job.

            LW is in a difficult spot as a newbie with no real knowledge of her boss & office culture. I understand her anxiety & certainly hope things turn out ok.

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      5. MassMatt*

        Even if the boss is a lone nutjob, she is the new boss and may have the power to make life very difficult for the OP.

        The phrase “giving PTO back to the company” is a big red flag, dunno what kind of company it is but it reeks of the kind of dysfunction often seen in the nonprofit sector, as though people working for nonprofits are not sacrificing enough by the generally lower compensation compared to for-profits, and employees are greedy for expecting to be paid their salary.

        Another big red flag is what LW says about it always being busy and “fast-paced”. That tends to be code for “we are always understaffed”.

        The delays LW experienced may not have to do with people taking their vacations (and being a sign of a good work/life balance), but rather that everyone is overworked and/or it was difficult to get budget approval for a new person, no matter how dire the need.

        I would really like an update to this one!

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    3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      This is OP’s first impression of new boss. “Hi, I know we haven’t met yet nor are you at the office yet, but I want to set expectations. I expect you will sacrifice both time and money for the company. I do it and therefore you will, too.”
      Oh, yeah, thanks, so, um, we all go to the office sick as well?
      Good to know.
      Talk to HR before you get there and have time off denied with a “we talked about this.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yeah, I think it’s a good idea to talk to HR again. But OP would know if that’s a *smart* idea or not – would talking to HR before starting the job result in OP’s offer being rescinded? Then again, even if OP waits until starting to talk to HR, the offer could still be rescinded upon bringing it up. It’s really hard to know when/if to be a squeaky wheel before you even meet the vehicle and all its other parts.

        Reply ↓
        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          I mean, if they’re going to pull the offer because OP said “hey I need you to honor this thing we agreed on” then that’s not an offer worth keeping. If they’re going back on the terms, they’re already functionally pulling the offer. Magical thinking won’t change that.

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        2. Mainly Lurking (UK)*

          If the offer is rescinded as a result of clarifying the holiday entitlement which was a condition of the OP taking the job, frankly that’s a bullet dodged.

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      2. Midwest Manager too!*

        I would be concerned about performance reviews reflecting “excessive time off,” rather than denying requests to use the time.

        Reply ↓
        2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          Exactly. I’m not suggesting HR as anything punitive, not even to “get them on your side.” I’m saying, since it was phone call, before you even started (!!) I’d want some CYA, create a record showing that the boss has a weird expectation that may cause problems with agreed upon compensation later.

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        3. Properlike*

          But if the reviews say “excessive time off” and they’re within the agreed-upon vacation/PTO days – which will also be part of the HR file, and can’t LW make a note when they sign their performance review? – then I would consider that less of a concern than denying it outright.

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          1. Midwest Manager too!*

            Employee comments on a performance review are discounted more than you’d think. However, if the PTO use is within the allotted time, it’s something the employee can grieve with HR if the overall rating is low because of that.

            I’d say it’s just a major headache for the employee regardless, and worth continuing the job search – even if they start this job as agreed.

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    4. DidIRollMyEyesOutLoud*

      I was coming here just to say this! I really want to hear how this turns out. The new boss sounds ridiculous.

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    5. Momma Bear*

      Not just hasn’t started, but the time off request isn’t for months and the boss is already telling LW that she won’t honor the PTO. This does not bode well, sorry LW.

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    6. NerdyPrettyThings*

      I wonder if she agreed to extra vacation time during negotiations while thinking, “It doesn’t matter how much time we give her. Once she’s on my team, she won’t be taking all of it, because I’ll deny it.” This is a classic bait and switch.

      Reply ↓
    8. Sloanicota*

      I worry the request to go on leave shortly after starting was the “straw that broke the camel’s back” here. Sadly there is still an expectation that new employees take no leave (in fact, they have often accrued very little leave to take) until several months in. My guess: the hiring manager was minorly irked about the negotiated increased leave already, and now this request pushed it over the top. TBH, if you’ve been out of work for a whole year, I realize it sucks but that upcoming vacation you were planning might not be the right timing. I’ve been there. You should have been able to negotiate to include it, but I also feel like you kind of only get “one thing” to negotiate hard on, and you used it to increase your total leave.

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      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        But it was raised when OP accepted the job offer. This has been planned for a year. If they had a problem with it, they needed to say something before OP committed.

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      2. Noooooo*

        no. it’s a 2 way street. if somehow what you are saying were true they’d have refused to consider it. they accepted. don’t tell other people to limit themselves like that for no reason. that’s perpetuating a big problem.

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      3. ThatGirl*

        OP says the request was “several months” after starting – and every new job I’ve started has asked if I had pre-planned vacation time coming up. I did have one job where it was frowned upon to take PTO in the first 90 days, but even there if I had let them know of one before I started, it would have been fine.

        Also the manager didn’t say “you shouldn’t be taking vacation in your first three months,” she said the OP shouldn’t use all their PTO in general.

        Reply ↓
        1. Sloanicota*

          Yeah, if it’s three months or more, I retract my statement. If it’s within the first month, though, I don’t think it’s crazy to raise this. And I should have added, only crappy bosses are like this. But there’s plenty of crappy bosses.

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          1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

            I think it’s curious that you’re defending the boss here, the one who patently unreasonably said the LW should not expect to be able to use all her leave? Because the LW said the trip is “several months” after her start date, which is at least two and likely three, AND she told them about it when she accepted the offer. The time to say no to her vacay has passed.

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      4. HBJ*

        This just isn’t true. You raise it when you’ve got the offer, and if they accept, it’s not a big deal. My husband took three weeks less than a month after starting. He’d told them during the hiring process, and they agreed. It never came up or affected him his entire time at that job.

        Reply ↓
        1. Aquamarine*

          Yeah, that makes all the difference. If she hadn’t already told them, it would seem odd to spring the request on them so early, but it’s already been discussed and agreed upon.

          Reply ↓
      5. Blue Pen*

        No way. Even though it’s not exactly the same thing, this reminds me a bit of pregnant people needing to go on maternity leave shortly after starting a new job. Life happens, and if the new hire is up front about what’s going on in their lives that may impact work, that’s all that’s required of them. And if the LW pushed for more leave and was crystal clear about a time of year they would be unavailable, and they were still offered the job, then I fail to see what the issue is.

        I know this is a bigger issue (for me at least), and I don’t mean to throw you on the pyre here, but we have to get out of this mindset that work supercedes everything else. It does not. And while I absolutely understand there are managers who operate with that kind of iron-fisted rigidity (ask me how I know), the more we collectively push back against that, the more that toxic mindset dissolves for everyone.

        Reply ↓
        1. The Dude Abides*

          This was me, but I’m a dad – at orientation, my wife was due in six weeks.

          HR was quick to get me the paperwork that day for the OB to fill out – it ended up being timely, as my wife was scheduled for a c-section less than two weeks after I started.

          In the end, my leave was approved on my last day, and I got the full amount – six weeks, paid at 100%.

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      6. umami*

        The fact that it was discussed and agreed upon, though, is something that OP shouldn’t have to backtrack. I say this as someone who kept losing vacation days (132 hours over the past two years) and made a point of scheduling several trips this budget cycle early in the year. Then I was asked to take on a new role at a different location with much more responsibility. I told the hiring manager about a scheduled trip I had in a few weeks and that I would be available after, but they decided to go ahead and bring me into the new role right away and honor my planned vacation as well. I would much rather work for a company that honors and respects its employees than someone who does this kind of bait and switch (because I would bet that if a few months in is a bad time for a previously planned trip, there will somehow never be a ‘good’ time).

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    9. Chauncy Gardener*

      WHOA! I’d really like to see an update on this one too. This is just screaming red flags, either just for the manager or the company overall. “Giving back to the company?” F— no.

      Reply ↓
    10. till Tuesday*

      I’m actually a bit surprised you think the hiring manager gets to approve/reject pto. No job I’ve had where that was negociable would the hiring manager be involved in those discussions.

      Reply ↓
  2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    “Giving back to the company” is a weird thing to say. I can’t tell if it’s masochistic, cultish, respect-the-grind, or what. But unless it’s a “passsssssssion” non-profit or a church that practices tithing, that is not how normal people talk about their employer.

    Reply ↓
    1. whoknew*

      and even in those contexts it shouldn’t be (though it too often happens). It speaks to a potentially highly unhealthy environment.

      Reply ↓
    2. Totally Minnie*

      Exactly, it’s such weird phrasing! Paid vacation days are part of the compensation package, so a manager saying you should give some of the days back is the same as if she was telling LW to give back a portion of her salary every year. That’s not how this works.

      Reply ↓
    3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Giving back to the company is definitely weird. Like that is not how jobs work. I think this is one of those people who are workaholics and believe sacrificing yourself for the company is a good thing.

      Ask her if she would give back to the company by giving up her retirement? Or carry a heavy piece of equipment for miles and rather than take public transport. Definitely would not eat the company ordered pizza.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lab Boss*

        I get what you’re saying here but I wouldn’t go that way. There’s plenty of managers out there who really WOULD do nonsense things like reject compensation or voluntarily downgrade travel because they think it will make the company love them. And there’s probably even more who wouldn’t, but would claim they would to win an argument with an employee. In the end it doesn’t matter if the manager would do those things- the employee wouldn’t, and shouldn’t.

        Reply ↓
        1. Buy me a pint*

          I hate to break it to the pastor here, but curing inside baseball from AAM isn’t going to carry the day when getting into arguments with your boss (no matter how much in the right you may be).

          Reply ↓
      2. Hlao-roo*

        Nice call-back to the “My coworkers won’t help me cut expenses” letter!

        (First letter on the “my coworkers won’t cut expenses, pop culture references in interviews, and more” short answer post from January 25, 2019 for anyone who hasn’t read it.)

        Reply ↓
    4. Falling Diphthong*

      Yeah, that is a very odd way to frame it, and could point to a number of dynamics underlying the boss’s assertion that this is, so, a crab bucket. (Reminds me of the person who was trying to save the company via things like not eating the pizza provided and moving equipment on public transit, and was upset that her colleagues were not making similar sacrifices.)

      Reply ↓
    5. CeeDoo*

      My school does that “we’re family, and family sacrifices for each other” stuff, but it’s only the teachers who are asked to make sacrifices. Admin doesn’t. If this manager chooses to give up their PTO days, great. But that’s an unrealistic expectation of employees. Especially when PTO was a specific part of the negotiation stage.

      Reply ↓
      1. Properlike*

        This is notorious in schools. Teachers should “do it for the children or you’re not a good teacher.” Never anyone else.

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      2. Not a Vorpatril*

        But, I mean, that’s just public schools, right? Teachers, sacrifice your preperation time to watch bathrooms. Oh, now we need you for lunch monitoring. And bus duty. Oh, and how much are you doing after school to support students doing clubs/sports/activities, because I’m sure you’d like to do a bit more, right?

        My school is moderately reasonable, and at least I’m old enough to recognize most of what I can push back/ignore and what can be dealt with minimally. In the end, I try to do reasonably by the students, and the admin can whine if they get around to it.

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    6. Audrey Puffins*

      The way I “give back” to the company, in return for my wage and benefits, is to simply go to the workplace and do the work. Sometimes they need a little more time from me, so they give me a little more money. We’ve already got our arrangement in place, it works well, and at no point do I sacrifice anything of benefit to me in return for, I don’t know, good vibes or whatever. Definitely a hair-raising thing for the boss to have said!

      Reply ↓
    7. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’d be irritated even if it were a charity, but even more outrageous to be expected to donate one’s leave time in the cause of higher profits.

      Reply ↓
    8. LCH*

      it’s BS. i’m already annoyed when i get fundraising emails from my workplace (i work here, you give me money, not the other way around; go forth and find funders from not your employees). but this would make my head explode.

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        I even get annoyed when I get fundraising emails to donate to workplace-selected charities. If you’re not going to match my donations, why should I give at the workplace?

        Reply ↓
    9. Sloanicota*

      It didn’t sound like this job was a nonprofit, and I hate, hate, hate when corporate places co-opt the “mission-first” language of nonprofits. A) It’s already pretty crappy that nonprofits pressure their employees to donate/sacrifice “for the cause” and then B) In this case, the cause is “enriching shareholders/the CEO.” Loathe.

      Reply ↓
    10. Pizza Rat*

      Right? You’re giving your time, work, and physical and mental resources to the company in exchange for pay. You shouldn’t be giving anything “back” to an employer.

      Reply ↓
    11. JustaTech*

      During early COVID (summer 2020) my work asked everyone to take their vacation days (even though we obviously couldn’t go anywhere) to “get them off the books” – because vacation is debt, and the debt was causing issues (I don’t remember how exactly).

      But they didn’t ask us to also work on those days!

      Reply ↓
  3. OlympiasEpiriot*

    OP hasn’t even started yet and this is what her boss wants to talk about?!?

    Not a good sign at all. I’d be proactive as possible about this and not let it linger

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    1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      Ha! My comment, too!
      Hi, just want to let you know before you come in that I expect you to give up the time and money you negotiated.
      WTF?

      Reply ↓
    2. Observer*

      Very much this.

      It’s a red flag. Whether about the manager or the company as a whole is unclear.

      But *absolutely* make sure to contact HR and do it *in email*. Because there is a real chance that at some point HR is going to try to claim that “no one ever told them” about the problem. Whatever else happens, you don’t want that to happen.

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      1. el l*

        Agree on all this, and it’s possible that this is just a boss’ particular hangup, but it needs to be flagged for everyone ASAP.

        I’d even say this too in addition to Alison’s suggestion:

        “My PTO is part of my compensation. Expecting me to not use it would be treated the same as not paying my paychecks in full.”

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  4. BatManDan*

    We all need to practice saying “What a weird thing to say…..” and then being quiet. Apparently, many of us have multiple chances to use a phrase like that daily.

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    1. Account*

      My new year’s resolution is to talk way less when I am in a difficult conversation with anyone. I get anxious and start babbling on! Silence is the way to go.

      Reply ↓
      1. SansaStark*

        This is a great resolution and I should make it mine, too. I recently wrote out a few notes for a difficult convo that I needed to have and wrote “SHUT UP after this” several times. It actually helped to be quite stern with myself!

        Reply ↓
    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Not sure that’s the ideal approach with your new boss, TBH. I like Alison’s suggested language about “I’m concerned because I negotiated this before starting and want to make sure we’re all on the same page” much better. Definitely more professional.

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    3. Edwina*

      I’m going to add “what a weird thing to say” to my phrases to fall back on list – which currently contains “wait a minute!” and “wow”

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      1. Funbud*

        I think ” What a weird thing to say” is best used with coworkers, especially the ones from outside departments who try to control the LW (a recurring type here on AAM) rather than your supervisor. A more professional tone is needed in this instance, but I still feel this situation isn’t going to end well for the LW is they go to work for this manager.

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    4. Clearance Issues*

      I’ve really liked the tiktok trend of “You could always just paint the roses red/What an odd thing to say” because it gives practice in saying that phrase with the right confused tone.

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  5. Heather*

    Wow, I see this as a red flag but one that could be cleared up, as Allyson suggested” by writing to both HR and the Manager (in the same email) requesting clarification of the agreed upon compensation.
    I am pretty sure HR is going to be horrified with the Manager’s idea that employees should “give back” to the business. We all know that work is transactional and the LW’s work is that she gives to the company. No more is necessary.

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    1. Falling Diphthong*

      HR certainly won’t want the company (a large global one) to get reviews saying that the timeoff in their job offers is a lie, and your welcome orientation will include a warning not to actually use your time off but to instead give it back to the company.

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    2. MissMuffett*

      Yes, document the hell out of this conversation. You want it all in writing with all the relevant people cc’d so there’s no question.
      Give back! I almost died laughing. It’s COMPENSATION people!

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    3. Sloanicota*

      Yes although woof, what a foot on which to start off your relationship with your new boss. I really feel for OP, that’s a tough situation.

      Reply ↓
  6. Federal Employee 46681654*

    My advice here would be for LW to immediately begin looking for another job. It sounds like they’re unemployed right now, maybe by choice, so it’s unclear how desperately they need this position, but I don’t see how a supervisor who says something like that before you even start will be anything other than hugely problematic. So maybe start the job, take your leave, but begin the search for something else right away. There’s almost no chance working for a boss like that will be sustainable.

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    1. Seashell*

      I agree to continue the job search. Unless HR gives it to LW in writing that they will definitely be able to take all four weeks off, it sounds likely not to happen.

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    2. CareerChanger*

      I agree. For me personally, it’s tempting to hear something like this and think “oh, we can work it out.” But if my past experience tells me anything, it’s that this is only the beginning of the unreasonable/misaligned expectations, and getting HR to intervene might fix this particular problem, but it will not fix this manager’s value system.

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    3. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      Thirding that vote. I worked for a company that did not honor the time off they offered – in writing, yet!

      I did not work for them long.

      If you’re worried about looking like you’re job hopping, OP, every subsequent company I interviewed with completely understood “I am job hunting again so soon because they did not honor the benefits written in the contract.”

      Reply ↓
    4. Helewise*

      I agree. Time off is a big deal for me, so this is one where I’d consider retracting my acceptance of an offer and moving on if I didn’t badly need the job. It just does not bode well for a healthy workplace.

      Reply ↓
    5. 2 Cents*

      I agree it’s a red flag. I wonder if, in part, it’s because the OP is coming in with taking a vacation almost immediately and the manager is *also* some kool aid drinking corporate person. Like, manager would *never* go into a new position with preexisting plans because life isn’t allowed to happen. But also expects life to totally revolve around work. (I hope I’m making sense.)

      OP, I’m sorry this is happening. Take all the leave you can, use your FSA money while you’re there, and keep looking.

      Reply ↓
      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I wouldn’t call a vacation a few months after starting as “almost immediately”– I think that’s pretty normal, especially when it’s discussed at the offer stage. So I’m leaning into the “red flag” more and more. It’s just weird to me that a manager would be so perturbed by a vacation a couple of months out– this is such a normal thing, especially among experienced hires. Shoot, it happened to me. I started my current role and went on a 10-day vacation four months later. I told them about it at the offer stage as a courtesy and they didn’t even blink.

        Reply ↓
        1. JustaTech*

          Yes, I started a job about 3 months before I got married and they were perfectly willing to let me go negative on vacation time to take my honeymoon. It was no big deal, though maybe part of that was that most people only ever take one honeymoon?

          Reply ↓
  7. PropJoe*

    Would there be any reason not to forward the hiring manager’s reply to HR instead of starting a new email chain? Because forwarding it makes it harder for the hiring manager to play innocent.

    Reply ↓
    1. Totally Minnie*

      It looks like this happened on a call, not in an email, but if it had been in writing that’s definitely what I would suggest.

      Reply ↓
      3. Falling Diphthong*

        To: New Manager
        cc: HR

        Dear New Manager,
        Writing to confirm your verbal instructions that I not take my agreed upon vacation days, and that I should expect to gift them back to the company.

        Reply ↓
    2. Beboots*

      If it was in writing, I’d agree, but it sounds like this was expressed in a phone call. When something concerning is said to me in the workplace (over the phone/video, in the hallway, in a meeting), I often follow up in writing with an email that expresses my main takeaway from that conversation, or “my understanding is…” and framing my concern. If they let it rest without correction, then I consider that the start of a good paper trail. Sometimes these things are expressed in these methods (like a phone call) because they’d consider it problematic to get in writing… I agree with Allison that she should be looping in HR to see if this is an official approach or if the manager is going rogue with this direction and will backtrack if she’s called upon to put it down in writing.

      Reply ↓
  8. Dawn*

    To be honest…. I’d probably be continuing my job search, after that. You can leave the job off your resume completely but if anyone does know about it and asks, I’m sure that any decent hiring manager would be appropriately horrified to hear that you were pressured to “give some of your vacation time back to the company” before even starting.

    Reply ↓
    1. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Good idea. Take the job but keep looking so if this one indeed turns out to be full of bees you will at least be that much closer to a bee-less job.

      Reply ↓
    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Ditto.

      Unless HR jumps all over this and sudden, dramatic changes in the management of that department happen, they’ve gotta get out.

      Reply ↓
  9. Zuzu*

    Pressuring an employee who hasn’t even started working yet or received a single cent to “give back” to the company is definitely a red flag.

    Reply ↓
  10. CTA*

    I’m curious what the PTO offer was before you negotiated for more. Is your 4 weeks PTO significantly more than what other employees are getting at your level and even overall for the company? Regardless, it sounds like a bad situation when your boss is saying not even she can take all of her PTO and has even lost those days. I hope you have the negotiated PTO documented somewhere, though I don’t know how much that will help since it doesn’t seem like they want you to use it.

    Reply ↓
    1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      It sounds like boss WON’T take all her time off to “give back to the company.” She is choosing to be a martyr and setting expectations for OP to do the same.

      Reply ↓
      1. Falling Diphthong*

        One of the weirder things about martyrs is that they are so often in a situation where no one asks this, or expects it, and they’re just trying to force the script in their head to manifest onto the supporting characters around them.

        Once it’s someone’s self-image, it can be really hard to hear “No one cares about this thing that you are framing as your noble sacrifice” even if people are spelling that out in cod across the reception area, and have composed a musical.

        Reply ↓
        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          This. The word has such negative connotations anymore that I don’t even qualify it with “self-proclaimed” or “self-made.” I hear the word and feel that I’m going to hear a story about someone whose identity is whatever they are doing instead of what they should be doing.

          Reply ↓
    2. Sloanicota*

      This is actually one reason negotiating for increased PTO is often tricky. Your boss and coworkers aren’t going to be thrilled to hear that the brand new person with no history of contribution to the organization already has more leave than they do, particularly in a place that nickel-and-dimes leave accrual or where it’s typically granted by seniority. Is it a crabs-in-the-pot mentality? Yes. But we are all just crabs sometimes.

      Reply ↓
  11. Yvette*

    The litter raider doesn’t say, but I am hoping that the additional vacation time was in writing, and not just something verbally agreed-upon

    Reply ↓
    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      I know this is a typo, but we have had letters on here about literal litter raiders, so I got a very sensible chuckle out of this! Thank you!

      Reply ↓
      3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I googled!!! I was googling “litter raider.” I imagined one of a group of new born puppies who pushed others aside and took more than his share. And then I thought of blue jays or others that put their babies in with weaker babies…I had an entire narrative. I’ll be back. Going to create a wikipedia entry…

        Reply ↓
  12. Lab Boss*

    This is a big oof. I had a former boss tell me “Your PTO limit is the MOST you can take, but it’s not what you should expect to actually take every year.” That wasn’t a brand new job, though- I knew him well enough to know he was a toothless buffoon who wasn’t even competent enough to hold a grudge properly, so I just told him “no” and went on with my PTO as planned. If I were coming in fresh and didn’t know how pushing back would be handled… I’d be really dang nervous to continue there.

    Reply ↓
    1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      This is why I respect my company. Our days don’t carry over. Bummer. But if they aren’t all used, HR contacts VP who contacts his reports who check with their staff. Employees using all their allotted time off is part of the manager’s job. They need to make sure you use this benefit. You don’t want to use it? Not going to happen.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lacey*

        Yup, my old job would hassle me if I was about to hit the limit on how much time I could bank.

        My current job doesn’t have a set limit (up to the discretion of our managers) but if it gets mid year and we haven’t taken much, my manager will start asking us when we plan to take it.

        Reply ↓
      2. Waltzing Matlida*

        Yeah, I work for a very small company, someone taking time off is… uh, *noticeable* &, yet, my supervisor & the owner of the company are insistent that everyone take all their pto & not come in when sick, etc…

        Burnout & spreading disease are much bigger problems than having to prepare for someone having a week off or something like that.

        Reply ↓
  13. Howdy*

    Unpopular opinion, but I’m not sure I see the benefit in looping in HR in this case. Even if you get HR’s support to take your leave, do you really want to work for someone who might continue to push back or pressure you or subtly retaliate. It just doesn’t seem worth the hassle. Personally, I would connect with the hiring manager with a similar script to Alison’s and try to get a sense of whether her concern is how/when leave is used (e.g. in big blocks, at certain times of year) or truly it’s whether all four weeks are used. Maybe the concern is equity on the team and optics (which wouldn’t be your issue to solve, but would be good to). If their answer does not resolve all your concerns, I’d strongly reconsider starting.

    Reply ↓
    1. Observer*

      It doesn’t matter *what* her concerns are. The LW has this benefit and the boss is telling her that they can’t actually use it.

      The fact that she’s also comparing the LW to *herself*, talking about how *she* doesn’t take all her time and therefore the LW should not do so, and talks about “giving back to the company” (which huh!?!?) says that equity is certainly not on the agenda here. And if “optics” is this issue, it’s a very toxic view.

      Reply ↓
    2. Lost academic*

      Honestly it’s a big enough red flag that the risk of doing so PROBABLY is worth it. I had the same first thought at the advice: it doesn’t matter if the line manager is operating off policy, she is likely the one that controls everything relevant about the position. An email to both of them is a lit match. I’d probably make a phone call to HR to avoid putting it in writing and also note explicitly the risks I was taking to even let them know about the conversation (so many even experienced people in HR are shockingly naive). But really I’d put my job search back into high gear. There’s just no way this all ends up going well down the road.

      Reply ↓
    3. Scriveaaa*

      If the LW has a decent amount of time until the job actually starts, this is what I would do, too. Including HR (esp on the same email) is a nuclear option that has serious potential to harm LW’s relationship with their future boss. If there’s time, you might as well start with an inquiring email before going nuclear.

      Reply ↓
      1. Butterfly Counter*

        Honestly, I’d say that the manager has already gone nuclear. Saying, “I would prefer not honoring the promises made in your negotiation” is awful. This manager just might be a loon who is being forced out of the company any minute now (and the email could be the nail in her coffin) and the company should know. Or the company is complicit, in which case OP should know and dip out sooner than later.

        Basically, going nuclear is a win-win. Either the company has a come-to-Jesus talk with the manager to change her mind (then OP should be fine) or the company waffles, in which OP figures out quickly this is a nest of snakes and can leave before any damage is done.

        Reply ↓
      2. Some Words*

        Receiving the entirety of negotiated PTO is a hill worth dying on. Honoring job offer terms is the lowest bar a company can meet. And while it might be a risk I would want HR to know that this is what this manager is doing to their staff. Their response would tell me whether to distrust the entire company, or just my immediate manager.

        Reply ↓
    4. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      Looping in HR leaves a track record of OP’s concern and lays the groundwork for OP to go back, if they have to, and say “There is a pattern of retaliation in that my leave is not being approved.”

      But yes… my advice elsewhere is to keep looking and if you have to start work at this place just for the paycheck, bail as soon as possible.

      Reply ↓
      1. Elbe*

        Exactly. The LW’s had a difficult job search, so it may be worth taking this job even if the manager is not very reasonable. But if HR has visibility into the issue and can confirm that taking vacation won’t negatively harm her reviews, the LW can have an income while they look for a better role.

        Reply ↓
    6. Kay*

      I think the benefit here is that the OP had a difficult job search and this is a large, global company so ensuring this wildly bizarre conversation and getting clarification on where the company stands will give the OP another data point and document the situation. It may be that their new boss is on thin ice and this tips things, it may be that they could transfer from under them, it could help should their future boss try to retaliate – many things – but at a minimum it would serve as a historical record and provide some clarification for whatever the OP decides to do.

      I think looping the boss in is the more risky move depending on how much the OP needs the job.

      Reply ↓
  14. ENFP in Texas*

    I’m sorry, but just because she has poor work-life balance does not mean that she gets to mandate that you have poor work-life balance. You negotiated the extra PTO, the company agreed the extra PTO, take your extra PTO. and if your manager has a problem with it and won’t approve all of your PTO, take that fact back up to HR.

    Reply ↓
  15. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    I’ve had this from a manager (‘using all your annual leave is bad optics and will set you back’) but that was after I’d done 10 years there and had recently got an increase to my allocation.

    Right after you’re hired is a massive no on either side of the pond. This means a company that says one thing and means another and I can say from experience that means they’ll do it for a lot of other things.

    Up to and including payment.

    When you’ve got the political capital to push back it’s a bit easier but when you’re new you simply don’t.

    Reply ↓
  16. KHB*

    This sounds like another case of “always confirm all details of an offer with the hiring manager, not just with HR or a recruiter.” We’ve seen all kinds of letters where HR promises thing to new employees (work-from-home arrangements, private offices, etc.) that are problematic for the hiring manager to actually deliver.

    It could very well be that the team is so understaffed that it’s hard for them to get all their work done and still take all their PTO. But that’s a problem that the manager needs to work on fixing – and if you wait until you have enough people before you start taking all your PTO, that’s a great way to guarantee that you’ll never have enough people.

    Reply ↓
    1. EvilQueenRegina*

      That reminds me very much of my ex-manager. She used to deliberately understaff and hold on to vacancies because she was always convinced that layoffs were around the corner, and said that if she was ever asked to lose a post, she’d rather cut a vacant one from the structure than go through the redundancy process and lose a person.

      Maybe if these layoffs had ever happened, I’d have been grateful for her handling it that way. But they never did. I don’t know if it ever was something discussed as a contingency plan that never ended up happening, or if this stemmed from a previous job or possibly the restructure that led to us getting saddled with her as our manager in the first place, but it never came to anything.

      We were constantly understaffed anyway, and one of her strategies to try and stave off these alleged layoffs was to keep taking on more work despite not really understanding what was involved, and/or not having the capacity to take it on. And since she wasn’t the most pleasant character to work for (nickname: Professor Umbridge), there was a lot of turnover and we never had enough people.

      It was very difficult to feel I could take my annual leave, not helped by the fact that Umbridge used to try and rescind people’s leave even when there really was no emergency that warranted it, or make lots of noise about how “it’s going to be very difficult to manage next week when we’ve only got Kristi and Marielle in” until someone who had booked time off cracked and offered to cancel some.

      Once she was gone and her replacement in post, suddenly all this disappeared as her replacement was willing to fully staff.

      Reply ↓
      1. KHB*

        I don’t understand your ex-manager’s reasoning at all. If layoffs really are around the corner, I’d think you’d want to hire as many people as you can, as quickly as you can, because (1) hiring freezers are a lot easier to implement than layoffs, so I’d expect ALL the vacant positions to be cut first, as step #1, and (2) if the powers that be are determined to lay people off after that, I doubt they’ll be so considerate as to look at how many “vacant positions” they’ve already cut from your team – if you’ve proven that you can get by with 6 people instead of 8, why wouldn’t they see if you can do the same work with 5 people instead of 6?

        Reply ↓
    2. Outsource most HR*

      “We’ve seen all kinds of letters where HR promises thing to new employees (work-from-home arrangements, private offices, etc.) that are problematic for the hiring manager to actually deliver.”

      This is another reason why HR should be cut out if hiring as much as possible. Hiring managers should be fully aligned with hires in compensation and not rely on HR to get it right. And the employee deserves to know that the people she is actually working for are on board with her compensation.

      Reply ↓
      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Sure, except cutting out HR would lead to other problems, like uneven (and possibly illegal) payscales and benefits, or other counterpart scenarios to HR overpromising; I think many letters have written in about hiring managers overpromising as well.

        A better solution would be if HR and the hiring manager were working more closely together throughout the negotiation process, respecting each other’s expertise: The hiring manager in terms of what’s needed to succeed in the role and HR’s in terms of what’s legal and what’s in-line with company policy.

        Reply ↓
  17. dulcinea47*

    Sounds to me like this person plans on punishing you for even having the gall to ask for more vacation time…. I foresee one of the many situations where the persons work is good according to all measures/coworkers but their boss refuses to acknowledge it.

    Reply ↓
  18. CubeFarmer*

    Ugh. My grand boss feels like she’s doing us a favor by approving PTO. Um, no, it’s part of my benefits package. She always makes a big show of it and pitches it as a joke, except when she’s in a position of authority, it is so not a joke.

    This is a HUGE red flag, LW, and I think Alison’s advice to deal with it head-on immediately, is a good one.

    Reply ↓
  19. TiffanyInHouston*

    OP: Take this job, take your PTO but do not close your job search. It’s easier to get hired when you have a job anyway.

    Reply ↓
  20. Rex Libris*

    I’d personally pass on the job if I was in a position to do so, and make sure the conversation came up. “I recently spoke with Hiring Manager, and our conversation raised some concerns for me regarding my ability to use my benefits, particularly the additional leave I negotiated. Given that I’m no longer comfortable accepting the position…”

    If you’re unable to turn it down, I’d accept but continue with the job search.

    …and PSA for all the Elon Musk wannabee managers out there: Your employees aren’t there to “give back to the company” they are there to trade their time and labor for money, and hopefully incidentals like health insurance and the occasional day off.

    (On a related note, if you’re an employee who feels it’s anything but a business transaction, you’re also part of the problem.)

    Reply ↓
  21. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    Was the HM party to your negotiations, or was the extra PTO something she hadn’t agreed to?
    Huge red flag and personally I’d quietly continue the job hunt just in case. If an employer reneges on an deal-breaking benefit, don’t feel guilty about jumping ship quickly.

    Reply ↓
  22. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    Hopefully she’s just talking through a lower orifice, so HR will confirm your extra PTO is permanent – and shut her down about this

    Reply ↓
  23. Abogado Avocado*

    Just want to emphasize that the manager’s statements need to be put in writing by the OP to the hiring manager. Putting it in writing forces HR and the hiring manager to take this seriously and should cause some blow-back for the manager as vacation days here are part of OP’s negotiated compensation.

    And, OP, should you be searching for analogies so HR understands how serious this is: imagine for a moment that a new hire negotiated for and received a promise of an additional $5K above the usual salary for the position, but her new manager told her not to expect to get all of that $5K because it would be “donated back” to the company. Everyone would see the manager’s statements as breaching the promised compensation. That also is what’s happening here because the additional PTO was negotiated as part of total compensation.

    Reply ↓
  24. Parenthesis Guy*

    This is a large global company?

    If so, it’s a red flag, but about your boss rather than the company. There are probably tens of thousands of employees in the org. Your boss might not be representative of the whole company.

    Talking to HR makes sense. They should know this boss is sending crazy calls before you even start. But it also makes sense to take this position and try to transfer out within a year to someone more reasonable who will let you take your leave.

    Reply ↓
  26. r..*

    Oh dear.

    Individual PTO has a relatively straightforward — certainly so than many other benefits — to model and compute monetary value. That value is part of an individual’s compensation package, just like salary is.

    Not taking “all your PTO to give back to the company” is as bananas a statement as “gifting some of your salary back to the company”. LW’s manager needs to understand that since they made that statement in a defacto decision-making authority (they can decide if LW gets to take all their vacation days) over a salary-equivalent benefit what they suggest to LW is equivalent to the company not planning to pay the employee as negotiated.

    Were they to do such a silly thing they absolutely should expect HR would be looped into the convo, and they should expect HR to react precisely as it would react to proposals of “Hey, lets just pay not their full salary”.

    (It also is head-on-pants from a monetary perspective. Because additional vacation is a form of value that unlike money is exchanged you can usually get people to give up more of their pre-tax salary ask in return for additional vacation than it costs the company, because since they do not have to pay tax on the additional vacation weeks they lose less in post-tax than the given-up pre-tax value would indicate)

    Reply ↓
  27. HailRobonia*

    Thank the universe that my boss, on the other hand, keeps reminding me to take time off. I also remind her… both of us have the bad habit of never taking vacation and reaching our accrual limit.

    Reply ↓
  28. NotARealManager*

    Plan to start the new job, but keep looking for another one. Even if your new manager lets you begrudgingly take all 4 weeks, you’ll never be a good employee in her eyes.

    Reply ↓
  29. RCB*

    This is where I like to employ what I call weaponized confusion. I’m pretty darn smart and certainly not naive, but playing naive can absolutely help out in a tricky situation like this, because you’re in a tough spot, having to out your new manager as a terrible person and potentially piss them off by technically reporting them to HR. But, if you’re just SO CONFUSED and couldn’t possibly figure out what’s going on here and need to connect them both to figure out what you’re getting mixed messages, then how could anyone be mad at poor, naive you for just asking for clarification? You weren’t being mean or rude or insubordinate, you were just simply so confused you couldn’t possibly figure this out on your own so you had no choice but to ask your boss and HR on the same email to coordinate and clear up the mixed messages….

    Reply ↓
  30. Ann Arnold*

    Don’t let them guilt you into not taking your PTO days by telling you they are understaffed and swamped. If they are constantly shorthanded, then that is a major management problem.

    Reply ↓
    2. Aquamarine*

      It is. I will say though, it becomes really hard in that position not to end up making it your problem when your vacation leads to hardships for other staff. I absolutely admire people who don’t fall into that trap, but I also don’t blame the people who do – it’s hard.

      Reply ↓
  32. Hush42*

    When I read the headline I was like “well I kind of do that to my team” but in a “Hey, just so you know, you can roll over up to 60 hours of PTO and you only start the calendar year with 40 and then the rest accrues throughout the year. If you’re planning a longer trip toward the beginning of the year you’ll want to consider letting some time from your first year roll over if you need to take more time in the beginning of the year.” kind of way. Telling someone, who hasn’t started yet, not to take all of their expiring PTO is insane. I try to check in about September where my team is as far as PTO and remind them if they have PTO that is likely to expire (more than 60 hours).

    Reply ↓
    1. Zona the Great*

      I help all my direct reports learn how to really take good advantage of our time off policy and combine it will our two WFH days per week. We also work 9/80s so we have a day off each pay period. I can’t imagine not wanting my staff to take every benefit available to them.

      Reply ↓
  33. Rusty Shackelford*

    “You shouldn’t use all your leave” is a pretty bad take under any circumstances. But considering that you specifically negotiated to get that much leave, it’s even more ridiculous. Although I suppose you could re-negotiate… “Since I’m only able to use half my available leave, I’ll now need 8 weeks.”

    Reply ↓
  34. A Simple Narwhal*

    This whole “giving back to the company” sounds like some tithing nonsense. It’s sketchy enough in a religious context (but that is neither here nor there), it absolutely has no place in a big global for-profit company.

    I think this definitely raises some red flags. Even if LW writes to HR/etc and they’re unequivocally on LW’s side, this is not good sign of how working on this manager will be. I can’t imagine this belief to self-sacrifice for the company is the only limited to the number of PTO days you take.

    I’d honestly keep job-hunting in the meantime, there’s almost no universe where working for this boss leads to a good work-life balance.

    Reply ↓
    1. Space Needlepoint*

      Sounds like this hiring manager thinks being a workaholic is a virtue, and/or believes if they’re loyal to the company the company will be loyal to them.

      Both of which are BS.

      Reply ↓
  35. 653-CXK*

    If this new company is willing to gaslight on PTO, they’ll be willing to gaslight on insurance, salary, and other things. The “give back to the company” sounds cultish, creepy and gross to me, and there are better ways of doing that than trying to short employees on basic things they’re entitled to.

    If you have not accepted the offer yet, I’d call this manager back and state that you’ve reviewed all of this and you will be turning down the job offer. If you have accepted the offer, be very careful, document everything, and watch your paychecks to ensure they’re paying you correctly. In either case, keep looking for a job.

    Reply ↓
  36. Emily (not a bot)*

    When I started a new job and it turned out the things HR had approved for me were actually not in practice approved by my manager, that was indicative of a larger set of practices around how they treated people. Like, it sure didn’t get better from there. I agree with everyone else who said that regardless of how you choose to engage now, keep job searching just in case.

    Reply ↓
  37. Elbe*

    If Future Boss was part of the hiring process, this is a massive trust issue. No decent person would allow a new hire to receive extra vacation as part of their compensation knowing that they would be discouraged from even using the standard number of days. That is a huge violation of trust and decency. If this is the case, I think that the LW should take this to HR and be prepared to not start this job. If the first thing that the company is going to do is to go back on promised compensation, I don’t think that there’s a lot of hope to have a good working relationship with them.

    But because Future Boss expressed surprise at the LW’s time off request, it seems like maybe this person was not part of the hiring negotiations. Having a future boss who acts this way is dicey enough, but it could be mitigated if it’s one misguided person within a larger, more reasonable company. If this is the case, HR should be able to set the LW’s mind at ease and set the misguided manager straight.

    …as she explained it the area is understaffed and it’s always very fast-paced and busy.
    Are there industry-wide conditions that would explain this? Do companies often have trouble hiring for the LW’s role? If not, this is a massive red flag on its own – either they’re intentionally understaffing or there’s really high turnover. The LW should be very wary of companies that intentionally create deficiencies so that existing employees feel required to “step up” at their own expense.

    Reply ↓
    1. Kyrielle*

      “…as she explained it the area is understaffed and it’s always very fast-paced and busy.”

      Are there industry-wide conditions that would explain this? Do companies often have trouble hiring for the LW’s role? If not, this is a massive red flag on its own – either they’re intentionally understaffing or there’s really high turnover.

      Or it’s yet another red flag about the manager. There are some people who are always too busy because they can’t organize/prioritize themselves out of a paper sack, or because they need to feel important. Either one is a real problem in a coworker, let alone a manager.

      The *best* outcome I can see if LW accepts with everything going on is that the manager is the problem, and either they get replaced or LW transfers laterally to another group later. LW – keep searching. There are a lot of scenarios where this is just a disaster. You know whether or not you can live with that disaster for the pay check in the short term, but if you accept, keep searching. (You can always not accept another job if, somehow, this one turns out to not be a disaster, just a ridiculous red flag parade.)

      Reply ↓
  38. Goldenrod*

    “Probably the best option of them all: say it to both HR and the manager in an email to both, so that she’s not going around them with her own, unsanctioned messaging.”

    I very much agree with Alison’s suggestion to put it in writing and send it to both parties.

    I really feel for the LW – I’ve been in the situation of leaving one toxic work culture just to end up in another, and it’s super disappointing. But what I learned from that was to cut my losses and move on sooner rather than later.

    Good luck, LW! Update please!

    Reply ↓
  40. Fergus*

    Yea I had to rescind accepted job offers and one I didn’t show up or even call. They all had firemen wearing red jackets riding red fire trucks carrying red flags on fire. They are your best friend before you accepted the offer and after they are your worst nightmare. This one might be one to run from.

    Reply ↓
  41. HappyEveryDayNow*

    Yes, I agree — red flag!
    I took a job with “unlimited” vacation time, knowing that there was no such thing as “unlimited”, but assumed that taking a reasonable amount of vacation, comparable to my previous role (3 weeks) would be acceptable. Except I found that my manager, while a great guy, would personally take only 3 or 4 days a year!!! In addition, we had only 5 company-wide holidays; the other 6 were flexible and needed to be reviewed/approved by your manager. There just was too much work and no backup. I ended up only taking 5-7 days a year. Lesson learned: I’m no longer there — and would never take a role without a set, defined vacation time again.

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  42. The Kulprit*

    Give back? Nope, we not doing that culty grindset nonsense in 2025. Push back OP, push *hard*. Someone here is testing your boundaries, it would be good to know who it is (and if they have standing to) before you start. I hate to tell you that you might need to continue your job search, but it is a possibility.

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  43. Spicy Tuna*

    I worked with a boss for 9 years who only took 2 weeks off in that entire time. One week was a family vacation and one week was after his dad died.

    He gave the rest of us horrible side eye when we took vacation. There was enormous pressure to never take time off. The company had a generous PTO policy and you could roll over your PTO hours up to the amount of your annual PTO amount. So, for example, I had 4 weeks and could roll that amount over to the following year, but as soon as I hit 4 weeks in my PTO bank, I stopped accruing.

    It got to the point where everyone was only taking time off if we were in danger of no longer accruing any more time off, and even then, he gave us a hard time. When he left the company and got his unused PTO payout, the lightbulb finally went off and he said he understood why we always asked for time off when we were in danger of no longer accruing PTO.

    He was a great boss in all other ways though.

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  45. CallMeNever*

    I’m so sorry LW. Honestly, I would play dumb and plan to use all your vacation. If and when your boss brings it up again, say, I gave back already when I did x, y, z. I negotiated for these because it’s important to me and nobody said I would be expected to give some back. And then let the chips fall where they may.

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  46. HonorBox*

    OP, you may need to walk away. Given that the company doesn’t allow carry over of PTO, there’s already a strike against them.

    I do think you should talk to HR before you make a decision to walk away. Maybe this manager is a rogue actor. Maybe no one has been alerted to this because they’re fearful of the repercussions from the manager. But if their team is being encouraged to give PTO back to the company, this manager (if they’re rogue) is acting in bad faith, and probably causing people to leave the company sooner than they would otherwise.

    If HR agrees that you can and should use all your PTO, you also need their assurances that manager will not retaliate against you or hold this against you. That’s going to be more difficult, but it also gives you the first step in filing some type of complaint when something happens.

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  47. DJ*

    What is this about high profit companies expecting to ou to treat them like charities and donate extra time unpaid etc etc. it’s not the workers job to subsidise the lifestyles of those at the top and who own the company.
    Even with non profits where staff tend to get paid less there’s this expectation.

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