open thread – January 17, 2025

by Alison Green on January 17, 2025

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 851 comments }

{ 851 comments… read them below or add one }

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I wouldn’t expect one if I had been the one on the other end of the line, but I suppose if you keep it low key enough, it’s not an issue? Like, keep your most effusive thoughts to yourself until you score an interview and then use them in that thank you note.

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      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yes, this. Keep it more “it was nice to talk to you re: position, thanks for your time” and less “your company seems amazing and I sure hope you’ll invite me to an interview.”

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      2. Anne Shirley Blythe*

        I don’t think it’s weird. A phone screening is a quasi-interview. I did it for my last two employers and kept it brief like Slow Ginn Lizz mentioned.

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    2. Tio*

      If the screen was 30min or more, maybe, but if it lasted ~15 minutes or less I wouldn’t worry about it. Screens are just that – screening.

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    3. Great Tim Horton's ghost!*

      It’s not weird. I did it every time. The more times you say you’re interested, via a thank you, the better.

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      1. Area Woman*

        I hire a lot and thank you messages do not impact my decisions. If people sound interested in my discussions, I believe it and I have already received that information. If they can’t make that come across in a screening call or an interview, then a thank you note and another expression of interest rings hallow

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        1. Blue Pen*

          I would disagree here. No, I don’t think someone should automatically get the job because they were the one to send a TY note. Nor do I think someone shouldn’t be offered the job because they didn’t send a TY note.

          But if they’re done well, they’re a way to show off your personality, what you were paying attention to in the interview process, etc. It’s more than just saying “thank you,” it’s to make a final case for yourself and candidacy in a personable way.

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        2. UpsideDown&InsideOut*

          Agreed. And adding that many of them now come accross as ‘gimmicky’, and there is zero room in my very boring mandated rating scheme to give you more points for sending me a thank you. I can however DETRACT points if you send one that’s poorly proof-read, has typos, spells my name or the company name wrong, or gives me any reason to think you aren’t actually the “detail oriented” person you are trying to present as. In my world at least, they can’t help you in any way, but might hurt you.

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    4. Helewise*

      I just finished phone screens and appreciated candidates who followed up with a thank-you. It doesn’t hurt and may help if I’m deciding between one of two candidates to pull forward in the process.

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    5. Southern Violet*

      Yeah, I do that, and have gotten jobs because of it. I keep it lowkey. Just one or two lines of “It was nice to meet you, hope to talk again in future, thank you for your time.” Nothing pushy or that requires a response.

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    7. Maple Cheesecake*

      I just wrote one based on Allison’s post for a screening (that, to be fair, was far more interview-y than I had prepared for), and I landed the in person interview!

      My reasoning was that because I wasn’t as prepared as I should have been for the screening, it helped show that I was engaged, just nervous. Maybe it was a bit much, but I wouldn’t be me if it wasn’t!

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    8. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I do a lot of hiring and while it’s not expected, and you certainly won’t get dinged if you don’t, I like to see it because in my area of work, people who are responsive and communicate do better than those who don’t. So it’s a data point, whether it should be or not.

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    9. TechWorker*

      Verrry low stakes question – I work in an open plan office but have a lot of meetings so often carrying my laptop/notebook between my desk and meeting rooms. I am also a women with a relatively weak bladder so often need to pee on the way to a meeting! Atm I will either leave my laptop on a desk near the door, or sometimes balance my laptop like, on the sink… is this really weird? Does your office have a better solution for ‘what to do with your stuff if you use the bathroom on the way to a meeting’?

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    10. MapleHill*

      Not weird and some managers expect it and might ding you if you don’t send one (even moreso for certain types of jobs). I’m not saying that’s right, but I work with a lot of hiring managers and have definitely heard this from multiple people. But just a brief thank you email is fine.

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  2. CherryBlossom*

    I’m in the middle of a sticky dress code situation and I need a script to deal with it.

    My office is rolling out a new, more formal dress code that applies across the board: remote workers, satellite office workers, temps, and contractors. People are furious, but it’s been made very clear that this is mandatory and will be enforced.

    Here’s where I come in. I’m a temp, with less than two months left on my contract. While I have no problem with the new dress code on principle, I can’t afford a new wardrobe, especially on one that I’ll only use for a few weeks. I’m sure many others will be asking for exceptions to the dress code, but I feel like I have a legitimate case here. I’d like to bring it up to my manager, but I’m not sure how to broach the topic without sounding like I’m just another person whining about not wearing sneakers anymore. How should I phrase this when I speak to her?

    Caveat: I am not looking for advice on where to find formal work clothes for cheap, potential charities in my area, if I can borrow from a friend, etc. I have neither the time, the money, nor the inclination to hunt down a new wardrobe. I am strictly looking for advice on how to ask my manager if an exception can be made for me because my remaining time is so short.

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    1. cbh*

      I’m just curious…. did you get this job through a temp agency that maybe your placement agent can argue for you that this was not part of the original deal?

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    2. Aelstuart*

      I’m really curious what others have to say, but I think what I’d do is just quietly keep wearing what I already have been and see if anyone says anything.

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      2. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I would also do that. Bringing it up means they can say no, which they’re going to do anyway if you keep doing it and then they notice, but there’s always the possibility they won’t notice.

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      3. Falling Diphthong*

        Yes, with the end date so soon, this is probably the easiest solution. By the time they start cracking down (if ever), OP can say “I’m leaving in 3 weeks; I don’t want to buy a new wardrobe for that time.”

        Past letter: OP was working remotely after moving across the state for a few months, something she got cleared before she started doing so. Top brass then decided she had to travel physically into the nearest branch office (a significant distance), and remote work at her usual office from the branch office rather than from her temporary home. Her own manager and the manager of the local office indicated that, while they wouldn’t put this in writing, they indicated they could just not notice where she physically was for the next two months, when she would move back to her usual house and office. And the consensus advice was that this would pass unnoticed if OP just quietly kept on what she’d been doing, being careful not to indicate her location to whoever up top had decided all the remote workers needed to shift position.

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      4. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        Yep, the only thing I’d add is to wear whatever stuff you have that’s closest to the dress code and your most boring (non-attention-getting) clothing.

        I’d like to know how they’re enforcing the dress code for remote workers. I have a fancy blouse on a hook in my office for any meetings that require such. I think the recent RTO/dress code BS is employers having a mass tantrum that employees are starting to think they deserved to be treated like humans.

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        1. DJ Abbott*

          Yes, I’m thinking keep it under the radar as much as possible. For example if they say no jeans, then don’t wear noticeably light-colored faded jeans, but black or dark-colored ones could pass. Just make it as unnoticeable as possible.

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      5. Blue Pen*

        I think this is also what I would do. I’m not sure what the LW is currently wearing to work, but without committing to this new policy, I think I would dip a toe in such a way where—even though I’m not fully participating—I’ll still play ball—e.g., dark skinny jeans instead of formal work pants, ballet flats instead of heels.

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    3. Justme, The OG*

      As a temp, are you employed by a temp agency or by the company where you work? My answer will be different depending.

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      1. CherryBlossom*

        I’m employed by a temp agency, though they’ve been aggressively hands-off and always direct me to act as though I’m employed by the company, so it’s up in the air as to who has more say in my wardrobe.

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    4. londonedit*

      I’d probably do as much towards the new dress code as I could with my existing wardrobe, and see whether anyone mentions it. If they do, I’d go with ‘Oh – well, I’m only here for another six weeks, so I didn’t think it was worth getting a whole new wardrobe’ – in a matter-of-fact tone, as if of course they wouldn’t really be expecting you to do that.

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      1. Tio*

        I would edit that slightly from “I didn’t think it was worth it” to “It would be a strain”. With the wrong person “not worth it” won’t land well.

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        1. BlueCanoe*

          Are they giving any sort of grace period? I’d be pretty annoyed even if I were a long term employee and they suddenly expected me to go buy a whole new wardrobe on short notice.

          I probably wouldn’t bring it up to management, but I would be ready with a response if they talk to you about it.
          I agree with not using “I didn’t think it was worth it” and go with “it would be a huge strain for me to buy a whole new wardrobe that I’d only wear for 2 months” or “not feasible/practical to buy a new wardrobe for 2 months..”

          Depending on your job duties, you could maybe also offer to dress up for specific things.. like if you have monthly shareholder meetings or if you have job duties on certain days that are more client-facing. But you might not want to invest in clothes even for that, which is understandable imo.

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          1. CherryBlossom*

            They gave about a 5 month grace period, which I think is a little short, but still fair. People here are more angry that they seem to be really serious about it, even for those not in the office.

            For now, I’ll follow the advice I’ve seen pop up the most: Try to dress as formally as I can, say nothing, and if pressed, explain that it would be a huge strain for me to buy a new wardrobe for 2 months. I hope it works!

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                1. CherryBlossom*

                  The new dress code is full business formal: Suits, dress shirts and blouses, formal shoes only, muted colors, no loud patterns, etc., and it applies to everyone, including remote workers, contractors, and temps (which is me).

                  How it’s going to be enforced for remote workers is beyond me, but I get why people are mad, even if I don’t share that ire.

                2. JFC*

                  If you are remote, you can probably get away with just adding a dressy blazer or jacket to your shirt, since most cameras are only chest-high or waist-high.

                4. Bitte Meddler*

                  In my previous company, where the dress code was more formal than my current company, I’d just artfully wrap a scarf around my neck on top of whatever t-shirt I had on. Looked great on camera.

                5. DJ Abbott*

                  Suits for temps, contractors and remote workers? That’s ridiculous! I was an office temp in the 90s-early 2000s and could not have afforded new suits on my salary. Not to mention, it was even more difficult to find suits that fit and looked good than other types of clothes. It would have been a shopping nightmare. That was in the 90s – early 2000s.
                  And for remote workers? Hanging around home in a full-on suit all day? No one‘s gonna do that!
                  I think some old guy is having a temper tantrum and trying to force everyone back to the good old days. *eyeroll*

                6. I Have RBF*

                  Yeah, like are they gonna come to my house to verify that I’m wearing the proper toe-pinchers? I work remote, in t-shirt, jeans and stocking feet.

              1. Person from the Resume*

                I think the grace period is about to be over.

                For permanent employees not planning to quit soon, I do think 5 months is enough warning. For anyone about to leave the company like the LW I’d resist.

                Also I totally get the remote employees thinking this is pretty silly and only complying from the waist up if they’re on camera.

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                1. CherryBlossom*

                  Yeah, I think I wasn’t clear: They announced this 5 months ago, but will start properly enforcing it in February. From what I can tell, people are mad that they’re actually going through with strict enforcement even for remote and satellite workers, as opposed to anything timeline-wise.

            3. LA*

              I think the general plan is good but I’d advise you to have a quiet chat with your company manager there to explain the situation and make it clear that you’re not trying to flout the rules, but you just haven’t been able to find a way to make this work in terms of the timing of the contract and your means. Be earnest and forthright, but clear – you can’t just shut down efforts in that conversation to try to problem solve, so you’re best off just replying sympathetically with “I’ve thought of that and tried it, I wish it could work but can’t at this time” or similar. The reason for this is that you address it early enough to control the narrative and make your job (and those right above you) easier by defining the problem and the solution so that in theory your manager isn’t having to be the middleman between the enforcers and you (which won’t end very well). Then also if others say anything about it in any way, you can honestly say that you’ve had a conversation about it with your manager and hope that it’s enough for management and remind them you’re about to leave.

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            4. Seven If You Count Bad John*

              Good lord, FULL SUITS?? I haven’t worn a full suit since the last Bush administration!

              As someone pointed out below, if you’re remote you can probably finesse this quite a bit–plus if you’re remote, you can get away with doing a lot less laundry, at least until they develop smell-o-vision.

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              1. Rosey*

                Is this return to more formal work attire going to be a trend? Along with a return to open racism and sexism and this weird retrograde conservatism about sex that the youths seem to have?

                Oh dear god, are we going back to the 1950s?

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      3. Ama*

        Yes I would wear the closest things I owned to the dress code and if someone says something just say “I am doing the best I can with what I own since I am only here until X.” (Honestly I would do that even if I weren’t leaving and be honest that I didn’t have the budget for a new wardrobe so I will slowly phase pieces in as I can afford to but since you have a last day I would just stick to that.)

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    5. Tio*

      You can probably ask them for an exception based on your known end date, but I would go through the temp agency if there is one as other suggested. Additional consideration: Is there any client facing component to your job? If I worked here, I’d be hard pressed to care about a temp leaving soon in sneakers if a client wouldn’t see them, but if there are clients going in and out and you’re going to stand out a bit, that might change my calculation. But it might change it to “Keep them more in the back office” and not “force them to buy new clothes”

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    6. Caramel & Cheddar*

      What’s the current dress code? Do you definitely not have anything that would fit the bill, or that could tide you over until the end of your contract?

      I would just say something like “Is there any leeway for staff whose contracts may be ending soon? With me leaving in two months, I don’t think it makes sense to update my wardrobe for the new dress code and I’m hoping there’s some flexibility around that given how different the new dress code is and the financial outlay it would entail to align with it.”

      Also: is there a possibility of your contract being extended and they just haven’t broached that with you yet? Asking because I know everywhere I’ve worked, people have never been on top of contract end dates even when they want to keep people on, so “two months left” could turn into six or twelve or fifteen or whatever. Presuming you want to stay, which you may not.

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      1. CherryBlossom*

        The current dress code is business casual, the new one is full business formal: Suits, dress shirts and blouses, formal shoes only, muted colors, no loud patterns, etc.

        I’ve been living in sweaters and cardigans for years, and I’ve sprinkled in some fun but still appropriate office colors (maroons, mustard yellows, the occasional subtle floral). The closest I could get to the new dress code is all black and white, but it would still be noticeable as Not A Suit. I do think I’ll try saying nothing and seeing what happens, as other have recommended, but I can’t imagine not sticking out like a sore thumb.

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        1. Lifelong student*

          This is an absurd dress code to apply to all personnel. There are many levels of employees with different income levels who cannot afford full business formal. There are many jobs where full business formal is not appropriate. Although this is in the other direction- when working as a para-professional I followed the “dress for the job you want, not the job you have” theory in order to be taken seriously. I switched careers when I achieved professional status and continued to wear the same clothes. I was asked why I dressed so much more formally than all the others (things had changed) and simply said that I had too much invested in my wardrobe to let it go to waste!

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        2. Llellayena*

          Do you have a suit you use for interviews and such that you could temporarily borrow the jacket from (preferably black)? Can you just wear that over your normal office causal attire for the appearance of a suit at first glance?

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          1. Spiritbrand*

            I agree with this. You probably need at least one formal outfit in order to apply to jobs. Just wear that same thing every day (for spite).

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        3. Just for now*

          I would just try to fly under the radar. If they do say something I would politely say “Yes, I saw that change. What is the timeline to require a complete change of wardrobe, for me? I ask because I accepted this job from the temp agency in part because of the dress code. I am not in a position to purchase a new wardrobe for the few weeks I have left on my contract. Can you please help me figure out a solution? I truly cannot afford a new wardrobe”.

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        4. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Honestly, it might be worth getting together with some other staff to push back in general and ask the employer to come up with a time frame for changing the dress code. Immediately getting people into business formal is going to be a financial hit for everyone, and I can’t imagine even full-time permanent people making twice as much as you are going to be happy about it.

          Are they offering a clothing stipend to help ease this transition? I assume not, but if you want people to immediately switch out their wardrobe, there are ways of easing that burden on the staff.

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        5. DotDotDot*

          No *Colours*? Wow. I have never worked in a corporate setting, but that seems excessive.

          I would be waiting this out, as it sounds like the permanent staff are going to be up in arms about this. I bet they end up walking it back a bit.

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          1. Lady Alys*

            Can you turn on a filter on your web cam and make yourself greyscale? That way you could keep wearing your more comfortable and colorful clothing but it’d all be “muted,” per the new (idiotic) dress code.

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          1. Anne Shirley Blythe*

            Lol. Off topic, I am beyond psyched for season 2 and admire my restraint in not watching on company time. (I’m even at home!) I definitely deserve some vending machine tokens.

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        7. learnedthehardway*

          You can put a blazer over a lot of things, and pretend it’s business formal – esp. if you are on video calls.

          I used to do that back in the days when I was expected to wear a suit at all times. I had some colourful wool blazers (fushia, electric blue) that dressed up a plain black top and pants, for example.

          Much less expensive than buying suits, at any rate.

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          1. Elizabeth West*

            I’ve put a blazer over a t-shirt for interviews on Zoom. If you choose dark colors for the shirt, no one can even tell.

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        8. Ellis Bell*

          Hmm, do you work for the Matrix? I had to read this twice to really absorb that it’s just suits, or…. suits? Like you can’t even wear a black dress? They let lawyers get away with more than that! I’m assuming it was announced in a really blasé way, like in a blanket memo rather than in meetings or anywhere where feedback and exceptions would be discussed and nobody with a face has actually said anything to your face? If so, I’d go ahead and assume they simply weren’t thinking about temps who were leaving shortly and find my best backstage technician outfit in all black to blend into scenery. Then, blend into said scenery. Something that does pop out in super formal, dressed up codes are trainers with thick bouncy white soles, so if you can wear all black shoes or just very minimalistic shoes, that’d help, but I wouldn’t sweat it if not. If your boss did directly ask you to change into suits going forward, and your sense is that you really, really will be challenged on it, I’d probably buy a longline black blazer to cover a multitude of sins, dig out a long sweater that looks like a dress and when you’re addressed about it, just let them know it’s a challenge, you’re doing your best, without actually asking for permission: “I know leadership want muted colours, so I’ve done my best with that. As for full-on dress suits, I’m only here two more months and can’t really afford to buy more than these one or two items (gesture to your blazer and whatever in your wardrobe most fits the bill).” You could also say you’ve been saving to afford more items…. say it will take you three more months.

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        9. I Have RBF*

          Business formal for remote and contract people? That’s crazy, and for everyone hideously expensive. Are they giving everyone a uniform allowance to buy all this bullshit?

          IMO, the whole thing would be a resume generating event if I worked there.

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    7. I should really pick a name*

      Assuming your manager is a reasonable person, just lay out the situation:

      “I’d need to buy quite a few clothes to comply with the new dress code which doesn’t really make sense considering I’m only here for a few more weeks. It’s not an issue if I just stick with what I’m wearing, right?”

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      1. Totally Minnie*

        Yes, that’s what I would do too. Just go to the manager and say “my contract will be ending in a few weeks and it doesn’t make financial sense to purchase new work clothes that I won’t be using for very long. I will do my best to get as close to the new dress code as I possibly can using the clothes I already own.”

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    8. Aggretsuko*

      Well, if you don’t fit the dress code, what are they going to do, fire you?

      Also, how drastically different is the dress code between what you currently wear and what they want? Are you sitting behind a desk and they aren’t seeing your feet so much?

      I will note that even if you don’t want to buy a whole new wardrobe (I just get my business clothes at thrift stores), it might be a good idea to have boring business clothes on hand for jobs/interviews in the future. Technically all you probably need are about 5 pairs of slacks and blouses.

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      1. Ginger Cat Lady*

        It’s entirely possible!
        In fact I was wondering if this new super strict dress code was an attempt at laying off people by making ridiculous demands so that people quit.
        If she’s depending on the income, the possibility of being fired is something to consider.

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    9. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      Honestly? Even if it’s enforced, it’s unlikely to be enforced aggressively enough and fast enough to affect you. Get as close as you can with what you have, and explain the situation only if you get pushback.

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      1. Socks*

        I agree. I’m not usually a “Better to ask forgiveness than permission” person, but this is a situation where I think it makes the most sense to just keep your head down and not draw attention to it. Even managers who are willing to look the other way might not want to explicitly tell someone it’s OK to ignore the dress code.

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      2. Venus*

        Agreed, and this is where an aggressively hands-off temp agency might be beneficial. You could maybe say that you’ve reached out to the temp agency for advice given that your contract is nearly done. I don’t know if this would help, and probably won’t, but I wanted to at least suggest the temp agency as an excuse (this likely only works if they are slow to respond, not if they are quick to respond that you need to do whatever the company requests).

        Otherwise, do your best to comply with what you have and know that they won’t want to fire you when your contract is almost done.

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      3. Antilles*

        This. If they’re just starting to roll out the procedure now, it’s going to be a few weeks before they start really tightening up. Then at that point, if someone says anything, you can say you don’t have anything in the wardrobe that meets the suit-and-tie standard and can’t afford to shop for an entirely new wardrobe for your last two weeks (or whatever).
        Basically, with only two months to go, you’re just trying to run out the clock.

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      1. Mentally Spicy*

        Right?! That was my first thought. They want people in their own homes wearing full suits for the whole work day? Why?! That’s absurd. And, like you say, impossible to enforce.

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    11. Llellayena*

      How soon does the new dress code take effect and are they providing a grace period for people to have time to purchase? If it’s going to be another month or more just ignore it. Also, is there anything in your wardrobe the DOES meet the new dress code? Can you just cycle through those items of clothing for the rest of your contract? If you’ve got some but not enough to get you between washes, aim to wear the compliant stuff toward the beginning of the week and lean into an unofficial “casual Friday”.

      If you do think you need to talk to your manager phrase it as a “this is what I’m doing” rather than a question. “Hey, since my contract is up in X weeks, I can’t get enough clothing to fit the new dress code for that time. I plan to wear Y and Z which is as close to compliance as I can get with my current wardrobe. Thanks.”

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    12. HR Exec Popping In*

      As you are a temp with a short term contract I am doubtful they will give you an exception. If their own employees are upset by this they won’t want to say ok to a temp but not their own workers. My advice, take it or leave it, is to try to up your dress a little bit to get closer to what they are asking for given your existing wardrobe and not say a thing. My guess is they will let it slide as they know you don’t work for them directly and will be leaving sooner vs. later. But if you ask, they will tell you that you need to comply. Sometimes with something like this, it is best to let it ride and see how it plays out.

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    13. Stuart Foote*

      I would love to know where you work (or the industry)…I have worked at companies that require suits, but usually that’s a long standing rule vs something that they are rolling out in the year 2025.

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    14. EA*

      Just keep wearing clothes but only the most sober/preferably black or white ones. I would not say anything. If someone ends up talking to you about it, you can push back with the argument that you’re leaving soon, but I definitely wouldn’t proactively raise the issue.

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      1. cncx*

        This is what I did in big finance where most employees were expected to dress business formal or at the very least top of business casual. I had a physical job in IT and it was understood I could dress like a stagehand. I wore a lot of black leggings and black sweaters. I was definitely less formal but I blended in

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    15. Person from the Resume*

      Comply as best you can, but be prepared to see your contract end sooner because you’re not meeting the dress code.

      Since you’re a temp, they’re planning for permanent employee to return, to replace you, or get by without soon. They may prefer to have you leave a month or so early to enforce the dress code or even send a message to others about dress code compliance.

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    16. HonorBox*

      While tricky in that you don’t want to be seen as another person whining, I think this is absolutely a legitimate question.

      Question before my answer: Are you in-office or remote? Or hybrid? If you’re not in the office, I’d find one top that you own that fits the code as much as possible and just wear that every day. If you do have to go into the office, I’d go with “Debbie, I understand the dress code, but I only have two months left on my contract. Given that short period of time, can I continue wearing what I already own and not run out and buy new shoes, etc. I can’t afford that and since I won’t necessarily need it going forward, it seems illogical.”

      Perhaps there’s something in your contract (either as an independent, temporary contractor or with a temp agency) that gives you opportunity to push back. This is a pretty significant change in expectations and your contract might give you some leverage as you make your case.

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    17. Trawna*

      Plain black or navy top with fake pearls and neatly combed hair. Every. Single. Day.

      Anyone who argues that that isn’t business formal for women needs to brush up on their 1950s.

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    18. Self Employed Employee*

      And if you do wind up needing to speak with them, use “weeks” not “months”, it will sound shorter in their minds.

      Reply ↓
  3. Hello!*

    We have a lot of flexibility and “fun benefits” at work. I recently had a minor medical issue. It can be serious if not treated, but thankfully it was caught so early the doctors don’t seem concerned. It’s causing me more panic than anything. I have a weekly medical appointment to review this condition, test results, medication. The weekly appointment is only inperson a few times a year, the remaining appointments can be done virtually. I am taking theses appointments during my lunchtime. This will go on at least a year or until I am given a clean bill of health. I know my benefits are earned, compensation and part of my employment. Is it odd to send my boss a quick email thanking her for her flexibility? Maybe some of her favorite homemade cookies (chocolate chip). I keep thinking about gifting up discussions. I am the “baker” in my department I thought instead I would just make sure to include some chocolate chip cookies in the batch next time I go on a baking spree. I’d just like my boss to know that I know she “has to” give me these benefits but I appreciate her going overboard to make sure my medical needs can be taken care of in private and in a comfortable surrounding.

    Reply ↓
    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Just thank her. Cookies or any kind of gift for this are way overboard (and, yes, I would find it odd and uncomfortable). First, you’re entitled to take care of your health, and second, your boss is a human being who probably just sees this as something necessary you need to do and it’s really not a big deal.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        For the cookies: if your department/team has a culture of occasionally brining in treats and leaving them out for everyone, then I think it’s OK to make her favorite cookies the next time you happen to be on a baking spree and leave them out for the whole department (unconnected to any “thank you” to your boss). Your boss will eat some, other coworkers will eat some, everyone will be happy. Especially because her favorites are chocolate chip, and not some rare/unusual type of cookie that may have people thinking “Hello! made these for [boss].”

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    4. Not A Manager*

      My instinct is no gift, yes email. Be sure that the tone of the email is “thank you for making it so seamless for me to access what I’m entitled to” and not “thanks for the favor,” if that makes sense.

      Reply ↓
      1. Honoria Lucasta*

        +1
        I’m a big fan of saying “thank you” even if it’s just to someone doing their job (e.g. thanking roommates when I see them unloading the dishwasher) because I *am* grateful and it provides an extra infusion of goodwill into the relationship.

        But I’m also a fan of being precise about what I’m thankful for, and I think NAM’s point is a very good one: you are not grateful for them doing something extra, you’re appreciating that they made it easy for you to make use of what had already been promised. Baking a gift would be an above-and-beyond response, which is only suitable for an above-and-beyond kind of action.

        Reply ↓
        1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

          I call this “aspirational thanks,” as in I’m thanking someone for what I expect them to be reasonable and generous about and it does seem to help them feel good about being reasonable and generous.

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      2. learnedthehardway*

        That’s as far as I would go – a “thanks for being just as supportive as you should be” type email.

        Anything more would be grovelling.

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      3. Pomodoro Sauce*

        I think you could say that this has been a really stressful time for you, and you appreciate how understanding and supportive your boss has been — that a lot of times jobs have these things on the books but there are bureaucratic hurdles to accessing them — and that you appreciate how these resources are really truly accessible, and that you appreciate the work that’s gone into making them that way.

        (No gift, I think. You may want to put it in a handwritten card if you feel like it prioritizing your boss’s support — with the email, I’d thank her but I’d also write it towards being something your boss could share with those people who determine benefits, to show what a great program it is.)

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    7. Caramel & Cheddar*

      From what you’ve described, I’m unclear where your boss is going overboard to be helpful here? You’re taking your weekly virtual appointments during your lunch hour. Doing them a few times a year in person isn’t an unreasonable amount that you need to be thanking anyone profusely for.

      If you still want to thank her, though, I would just mention it in passing next time you meet with her, e.g. “I just wanted to thank you again for your ongoing flexibility around my medical appointments” and leave it at that.

      Reply ↓
    8. Alex*

      I would just say it to her at some point, like, Hey, I really appreciate all the flexibility here. Especially if flexibility is part of the overall office culture, gushing thanks with gifts would be way overboard and maybe awkward for her.

      It’s sad that the basic ability to take care of one’s health is such a privilege, but, well, here we are.

      Reply ↓
      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yeah, I don’t know if it’s the wording or what, but it seems like it’s the company who gives the flexibility and not necessarily your boss, so saying you appreciate it makes more sense than thanking the boss specifically.

        And also, if you’re taking the appts during your lunchbreak, it doesn’t really seem like you’re using any of that flexibility anyway, you’re just having a lunchbreak and what you do on it doesn’t matter. I daresay that you could even take the appts at some other time during the day and if your company is as great as you say it is (sure sounds great to me!) then it still wouldn’t be a big deal.

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    9. Parenthesis Guy*

      I think if you’re the baker in your department and you normally bake cookies that you could give her cookies as thanks. I don’t think you need to do it.

      Reply ↓
    10. The Prettiest Curse*

      Agreed that cookies (or any gift) are too much, but how about a nice thank-you card with a hand-written message? I have never regretted sending or getting a thank-you card in a business context.

      Reply ↓
    11. Teapot Wrangler*

      I probably wouldn’t. If you were getting extra time off or leaving early or something maybe but you should be taking a lunchbreak regardless and how you use it should be irrelevant to her

      Reply ↓
    12. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Do not give a gift or cookies, and rethink becoming the office baker, too.
      At best, say something like “this has been a great place to work, and now that I’m going through this it has been really nice that work hasn’t added to my stress. Glad to be here!”
      The flexibility is already there. They are not doing anything special for you. It was there before you needed it and it is there now that you do. No gushing special thanks needed, but it can be nice to point out that it makes you happy to be employed by them.

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    13. Totally Minnie*

      I used to be the manager of someone with a health issue like the one you describe, and honestly I was just so happy and relieved to be able to provide her with the flexibility she needed to be able to recover. I didn’t need any kind of gift or extra thanks. She did write me a lovely note, which was so wonderful and kind, but I was truly just trying to be a good boss and a good person, so there was no thanks necessary.

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    14. spcepickle*

      As a boss who loves cookies I am fine with you bringing them in, but understand that I am going to put the plate in the common area for everyone to share (after eating at least one and putting one in my bag for later!).
      It is true that gifts should flow down, but people are people and we all like to know when we are doing something well and we we like to hear that you notice our work for you. It is true that your compensation package is earned and it is yours to use, but I read stories on here about all the terrible bosses who make it hard and I know I work extra hard to be make it as easy as possible for my team. A card, an email, a verbal – “Hey thanks for making the work side of my medical appointments so easy” is something I treasure from my employees. If it was a card I would keep it in the file I have of them.

      All that said it is 100% not expected and if I didn’t get one it would in no way affect my opinion of the employee.

      Reply ↓
    15. Kay*

      If your weekly appointments are truly just you taking your lunch hour and the others are only a few times a year, there really isn’t any flexibility being extended here and it would be odd for an employee to think there was. So, for me, it would be very weird to hear it, even weirder and bordering on bizarre to get cookies for it.

      Think about it this way, would you thank your boss for allowing you to take a lunch? If so, there are some serious problems.

      Now if you regularly have meetings that are scheduled during your lunch hour and one day a week that is being blocked for you to take your appointments, then saying thank you would be more understandable. I would just say it in person if that is the case.

      Reply ↓
  4. Amber Rose*

    Canadians or people who are good at legalese, I don’t need legal advice I just need to understand hours of work and break regulations. Specifically in Alberta, and specifically: are drivers/couriers exempt from breaks? This is a company that only operates in one province and so is not, according to my law prof, a federally regulated business.

    What’s throwing me is that the regulation says if it’s “not reasonable for an employee to take a rest period or they’re unable to take their break” then you can just pay them instead, but I don’t understand what would be considered not reasonable or unable to take a break.
    I’ve been digging through labor law all morning and my head hurts. There’s a reason I only passed my law class by a hair. ;_;

    Reply ↓
    1. Enough*

      Not a lawyer or Canadian but my take from past retail jobs would be the situation that there is no one to relieve you so you can go on a break. For drivers/couriers I would think it might be they are not in an area where they can stop to take a break. Such as no places to eat, so no real meal break. Also maybe a delivery that can’t be late so they are in route during a meal time.

      Reply ↓
    2. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      It’s surprising that there’s no decisional law addressing this. As such, look at other laws where a reasonableness or impossibility standard is applied. Analogize from there to the meaning of the regulation and apply it to the couriers from there.

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    3. Dinwar*

      I’m not sure about Canada, but in the USA (and I can’t imagine Canada is further behind the ball than the USA on something like this!) drivers are MORE required to take breaks. CDL regs are more or less the cutting edge of work/rest regs, far more aggressive about requiring breaks than OSHA (MSHA–the Mine Safety and Health Administration–is surprisingly aggressive about drivers taking breaks as well). Makes sense, too. When you drive you’re the guidance system for a fairly large missile, and it’s better for everyone if you’ve adequate mental capacity for such work!

      What may happen is that the driver can’t take their rest period at a specific time–no rest areas or the like–so they have to take it sooner (CDL doesn’t allow you to take it later). Or you switch out drivers. Paying in place of breaks is NOT allowed.

      That said, I don’t know how this impacts couriers or others who aren’t driving CDL.

      And maybe Canada is different, but in the USA whether you fall under federal regs doesn’t depend on how many states you work in. If you have a contract with a federal agency you are required to abide by federal regs. I’ve ran into a significant amount of trouble with that, as many contractors that focus on the private sector and are trying to break into federal work simply can’t because they don’t comply with all federal regs. It’d be worth asking someone who specializes in compliance, though, as every government entity deals with this differently.

      Reply ↓
      1. Amber Rose*

        90% of starting any labor law related action in Canada is figuring out whether you’re federally or provincially regulated. I had a whole class about it, and my lawyer prof was like, we make our best guess and then we’re wrong and have to re-file. Basically you’re only federally regulated if you’re a federal organization or your work crosses provincial borders, with exceptions related to a bunch of stuff. It’s fuzzy as heck.

        Anyways, I’m looking at our employee handbook and apparently everyone gets one 15 minute break, period, regardless of shift length, and that seems super illegal? So I want to push back but I want to be prepared first.

        Reply ↓
        1. ursula*

          The biggest factor for whether your workplace is federally regulated is whether you work in an industry that is under federal jusrisdiction, constitutionally (ie telecoms, most large-scale transporation, banking, etc etc).

          Try looking at the website of the Center for Public Legal Education Alberta (cplea dot ca), which has some good employment law summaries for AB. You can also call/email them and ask – they can’t give you legal advice but they’ll give you legal info if they can. Or ask an employment standards question through your ministry of labour – it looks like they have an online portal.

          And I’m sure you know this since it seems like you went to law school, but don’t listen to answers on this from outside Canada, however well-intentioned – employment law is one of the areas where we have a lot of variation both between provinces and especially vs comparable other countnries. Good luck! I hope the person in this situation finds a way to get some breaks!

          Reply ↓
          1. Amber Rose*

            Alas, I’m not smart enough for law school, but my current educational program has required two law classes. I did well at human rights law (which is an entertaining topic if nothing else), but labor law just scrambles my brain.

            Reply ↓
      2. dawbs*

        This is actually one of the things that gets weird fast, even in the US…the feds regulate who has a CDL, but they don’t actually dictate breaks if you don’t cross state lines.

        Mr. Dawbs drives city bus and when he first started, the union hadn’t yet been able to get the company to agree to minimum time between shifts rules. There are federal rules–but those rules don’t apply because the metro-area is in one state and they never cross lines. There were literally people who worked a 12 hour day, had a 5 hour break, and then another 12 hour day. It didn’t happen often, but it was absolutely allowed, because the CDL is just getting the license. The breaks were not under that umbrella.
        (The union has since gotten a rule into place, but it was a battle. The fact that there are rules protecting trucks of hogs being driven to slaughterhouses (because they cross state lines) but not protecting humans being transported (because they stay in-state) is kinda appalling)

        Reply ↓
    4. Bird Law*

      You can call the provincial work agency to see if you can get some guidance from them, because they are the ones enforcing it. Generally, agency staff fall over themselves to be helpful.

      Reply ↓
    5. RA*

      I googled “Alberta labor laws breaks for drivers” and there’s a result with the title “What are Alberta’s HOS Regulations?” that I believe answers your question. Within that page, there’s a reference to “The Alberta Drivers’ Hours of Service Regulation” that probably has the details you need. (I’m not an expert, lawyer, or Canadian – just someone who likes to hunt down answers!)

      Reply ↓
  5. my cat is prettier than me*

    I have a job interview this afternoon! After 2 years of ever-expanding duties and only small COL “raises,” in addition to the addition of a temperamental and out-of-touch COO, I’ve decided to move on. The new job would be the same pay and PTO, but better benefits and less BS.

    I feel bad leaving my boss and coworkers, but I can’t take it anymore.

    Reply ↓
    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      This was me at this time last year. I still miss my old boss and some of my coworkers, but my new job pays a lot better – I even got a COL raise after only 7 months on the job! – and my new boss and coworkers are also great. And I do NOT miss some of the terrible leadership stuff that was happening at OldJob. Feel bad for my old boss who is still dealing with it.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    4. Chauncy Gardener*

      Well, your boss should have treated you better. Good luck with the interview and remember to interview them back!

      Reply ↓
    6. Ms. Frizzle Found her Sizzle*

      Good for you for taking this step! Hope the new company has a better attitude, and you find what you deserve!

      Reply ↓
  6. BrandNew*

    My colleague resigned, and my boss has asked me to the be interim manager for her reports until a replacement has been hired. I’ve never been a people manager before! What resources would you recommend for a new manager?

    Reply ↓
    2. RK*

      If you’re in software, I enjoyed the book “Managing Humans” by Michael Lopp. If you’re not in software, you might even still find some good value in it

      Reply ↓
    3. spcepickle*

      Compassion tempered with an understanding that being passive is not actually kind.
      But really the best thing to do is take some time and think about the really great managers you have had, what did they do, what made them good, what was their overall attitude. Then spend some time dwelling on bad managers, what did you learn to avoid?

      Also if you do want leadership books I suggest your local library. Most of them you can read one paragraph or so per chapter and get the gist, see what sticks out for you and your team. But if it does not feel like a good fit, don’t worry there are LOTS of terrible management books.

      Lastly you are going to mess up, because you are learning a new skill set and we all have moments we would do differently. Treat yourself with the same degree of compassion you would treat a new hire who just messed up. And be forthright in apologizing and/or admitting mistakes when needed, it helps to build trust in your team.

      Reply ↓
    4. City Planner*

      Alison’s book _Managing to Change the World_ is really good, particularly if you’re in a non-profit or government or something similar. I also like the resources available from The Management Center – they are online at managementcenter org.

      Reply ↓
    5. Stunt Apple Breeder*

      I found Crucial Conversations to be a helpful guide. Even reasonable people can become invested in their side of a conflict; tactfully probing intent and developing a plan to reach consensus before jumping into the actual conflict resolution is a valuable skill.

      Reply ↓
    6. DEEngineer*

      I’d be careful doing too much active managing. Typically for interim managers, leadership is looking for someone to do the administrative work and keep things running smoothly. Be friendly, approachable and responsive and be clear with your boss on what she wants your responsibilities to be. Some management resources wouldn’t be applicable for interim positions.

      Reply ↓
      1. Project Maniac-ger*

        Agree! Don’t go in and try to move and shake. Really your job is to keep the wheels turning. Be a safe place and supportive manager and if you notice performance problems tackle them in tandem with your own boss – you don’t know the larger gameplan.

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    7. KeinName*

      Not specifically for your interim situation but Amy Edmundson gets recommended a lot and her description on how to create psychological safety in teams (ie people are comfortable asking questions, admitting to mistakes, learning without fear, etc)

      Reply ↓
    8. Eleri*

      Be really specific and clear about deadlines and expectations. When I became the manager of my team, I was kind of surprised how often me and my reports weren’t in synch on deadlines and deliverables, even for people I’d worked with for years. It wasn’t a failing on anyone’s part – everyone just interprets everything through their own lens.

      Reply ↓
  7. Hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

    Hi! I posted last week about going to HR because my boss yelled at me. It was a weird mix of being validated for my feelings and no manager should be yelling, and trying to get me to see her POV and why she might have yelled. And also that we both made mistakes and now the door policy is clear for everyone and I should not be ruminating on this. I’d say it was successful.

    But now I have a new problem. Basically, at my performance review a few weeks ago, my boss and her boss said that I need to get more independent and that my boss needs to be able to give me a task and know it will be completed.

    Which I’d be ok with, but I genuinely have no idea how to do that. I feel like I don’t have any agency. I also can’t always get to tasks she tells me to do immediately, especially if there isn’t a due date, so sometimes she’ll send a “reminder” the next day. Maybe that’s part of it?

    My boss is the one who oversees everything I do. All the supply orders go through her, she also checks on the supplies in the kitchens (which is my job) and lets me know if they’re “low” and I need to restock. (They are not low, they’re just not filled to the brim.) if there’s a printer issue I have to be the one to fix it, but I can only do so much. If they’re not on a contract we have with a printing company, usually because they’re so old, I can try to google and fix it but I’m not a magician. So then she and her boss usually give it a shot. Any projects people want to give me have to go through her (so she can manage my workload and make sure I don’t have 50 things at once). She’s the first one in her position, and before that I think her boss handled a majority of her job.

    Like the other day, and to show my line of thinking, my boss asked me to fill up the coffee packets in one of the kitchens, because one of the other kitchens has a coffeemaker that’s out of order and people might go to the first kitchen (we have three kitchens of varying sizes). So, I took the coffee from the defunct kitchen and moved it to the second one, because I knew it wouldn’t get fixed until the end of the week at least. But then she sends me an email asking why there isn’t any coffee in the defunct kitchen and reminds me that people drink coffee all day. Which I know, but they can’t use the coffeemaker in the defunct kitchen….. so I go and refilled the defunct coffee bin. Should I have instead said that I thought the coffee was full enough or something? I think the main thing I have any agency over is the supplies, but even that, she checks and lets me know if something isn’t up to her standards. I’d love to say this is just a me problem, but I watched her do the same thing to other clerks – get on us for supplies being low or not doing a project same-day.

    I am also unsure because I don’t want to be labeled as someone with an “attitude problem.” Unfortunately I watched a previous office clerk get fired for that exact reason.

    So, I welcome any advice.

    Reply ↓
    1. Dust Bunny*

      I think the problem is that your boss is an unreasonable nut job.

      Is there anyone at this place who could get her to see reason?

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    2. WorkerDrone*

      Honestly, this sounds like a boss who wants you to do, not think.

      The coffee example – I totally get where you’re coming from and it makes perfect sense to get the unused coffee from the broken kitchen and move it to a working kitchen. You thought about the problem, found a good solution, and implemented it.

      But it sounds like she wanted you to follow the direction much more literally – fill the coffee packets in the working kitchen from the working kitchen’s stock. I get the sense that she didn’t want you to find a good solution, she just wanted her directions followed exactly.

      “Should I have instead said that I thought the coffee was full enough or something?”

      Nope, I would have just followed the direction literally. If there was room to shove 2 more packets into the already-full-enough container, then I’d shove 2 more in there. Same thing with the restock – I’d just restock to the best of my abilities. Even if I think the stock is full enough, she wants them stuffed to the brim, so, stuffed to the brim they shall be.

      It sucks you should have agency over these things, but I think the reality of your boss is that this is how she manages and it won’t change.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hm*

        Yes, I think she’s giving you clear instructions, you’re just interpreting them differently. Even if you don’t think the kitchen supplies are really low, if it’s not 100% full and can be refilled, then go ahead and do it. You know now that’s what she wants, even if it’s nonsensical.

        Also, you say she doesn’t give you deadlines, but you can ask for deadlines proactively. Start doing that with everything and maybe it will train her to give them automatically.

        Reply ↓
        1. londonedit*

          Yeah, I’m thinking maybe she’s feeling there’s a lack of communication – if she feels like she has to check up to make sure things are done, and she feels like she can’t rely on you to do things she’s asking you to do, I’d maybe try being more proactive with how you communicate with her. If she sends you a task to do, reply saying ‘No problem – I need to finish the stationery order this morning, but I’ll start on this straight afterwards and will aim to have it done by 3pm’ or whatever. Could be that she’s feeling like she asks you to do things and doesn’t get any confirmation that you’re doing them.

          Of course, she could also be a micromanager and generally awful, but if she wants to feel like you’re ‘taking ownership’ then I think showing her you’re being proactive is the way to go. Don’t wait for her to tell you to refill the coffee; go and make sure all the coffee supplies are filled up, even if the coffee machine is out of order.

          Reply ↓
          1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

            I do think she’s just a micromanager. I’ve worked with people who have asked me to do a task and have never followed up or needed me to communicate any kind of a timeline, they trusted that I’d get to it when I could….

            boss now is not at all like that, and while I will get better at communicating any kind of timeline, I do think a big part of it is her.

            Reply ↓
            1. Bitte Meddler*

              Oh, for sure, ALL of it is her!

              But since she’s the boss and, presumably, you want to keep this job, then you’ve got to proactively do things that meet her silly standards.

              Like maybe put a reminder on your calendar to check the stocks in the kitchens twice a day, and make sure every single bin is as full as physically possible.

              If this is the hill she wants to die on, so much so that she’s putting it [vaguely] in your performance review, then I don’t see any other choice except to communicate proactively and to do all the parts of your job proactively, both in much more detail / over-the-topness than you’re currently doing.

              Reply ↓
              1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

                I don’t know if the stocking thing is part of what she mentioned in my review, the stocking was just the example I gave because it was a time when I was like “ok I’m going to do this this way” and didn’t ask her before or anything, and then it was completely the wrong move.

                you’re right tho that I should be doing things to meet her standards. even if silly, and even if they’re not MY standards. she’s the boss…

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        2. Caramel & Cheddar*

          “She wants it to look full” I think is the key takeaway here, and boss just isn’t explicitly stating that. I keep thinking about those videos you see on Instagram of people who have lavishly stocked pantries and I’m convinced the boss here wants similar for the coffee nook because, well, things do usually look much better when they’re full than when they’re picked over. I’ve worked places with C-Suite folks who are really concerned about how the office looks, literally, and I wouldn’t be shocked if OP’s boss was themselves receiving feedback like “The kitchen makes us look destitute when half the shelves are empty.”

          Reply ↓
          1. Ginger Baker*

            My read is 100% this – just think of all the letters we read from Midwest folks who will cut a Last Donut into microscopic pieces to avoid Taking The Last Piece! There’s a similar effect where when the stock on the shelf seems less-than-full, people may start to think there isn’t enough. I would switch to “refill” and “check stock” to not measure against “is there any left?” but instead against “is it full?” and make that your default standard.

            Also, with the coffee from the currently-defunct-kitchen…can I ask, what was the benefit in your kind of pulling from the not-in-use kitchen? The coffee supplies I presume were not milk or something that otherwise goes bad? In which case, you would only need to refill that kitchen from scratch later when it’s fixed…so, was the benefit that you were running low on supplies (in which case, pulling from there + putting in a fresh order is the right move)? Or was it just that you considered leaving non-perishable supplies in a spot where they would not be used for a few weeks “wasteful”? (This, I do not really get/agree with, again presuming these are non-perishable supplies.). So I think it’s worth answering this question for yourself and really get in the habit of asking yourself beforehand.

            Reply ↓
            1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

              omg. we are actually in the Midwest and your donut analogy makes so much sense!!!

              and yes, I do now realize in the long term I was creating more work for myself. but I am by myself in my job right now, so it was a more “in the moment” kind of thinking. I was doing what I could for the situation at hand.

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      2. Jeneral*

        I agree with this advice. She sounds unreasonable. I’d focus on just keeping all the supplies filled all the way to the brim since that’s how she seems to want it done, even if it seems silly. For the deadline thing, since she keeps following up the next day, it sounds like she is expecting that most everything will be done that very same day. Maybe get in the habit of (a) getting everything you can done that same day and (b) updating her on when you will be able to get to it if you can’t, so she knows you’re not forgetting it.
        I would also start job searching, especially if you don’t see improvement because it’s not good for your career to keep working for a boss who doesn’t think you’re doing a good job, and because this much micromanaging sounds annoying.

        Reply ↓
        1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

          I am job searching because this is A Lot to deal with every single day, but also because I don’t really want to be doing admin stuff like restocking the kitchens or doing supply inventory.

          Reply ↓
      3. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

        I like and appreciate this comment, thank you so much! I think that’s the problem, that I’m thinking and she wants me to just, well, DO.

        (and thank you for validating my line of thinking with the coffee. :) )

        Reply ↓
    3. Random Academic Cog*

      Sounds like she’s frustrated in general, but you aren’t going to get very far with your current framing.

      By “acting independently” she doesn’t mean switching equipment around. She means checking the bins yourself every day and making sure they are fully stocked (and stock is rotated in this case since it’s never going to be all used up). She means keeping tabs on the inventory and submitting the order or request with plenty of lead time for delivery, this ensuring nothing is ever less than fully stocked. I’m sure that’s not the entirety, but pretty clear on this specific instance why you’re getting the feedback you are.
      I would start with following up specific things (stocking independently, immediate notification if you’re assigned something that won’t get done until tomorrow) and see if that improves the situation. Yes, she’s micromanaging, but it sounds like she kind of has to for now and that she’d prefer not to do that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yeah, this. She sounds like a nut job micromanager, but I’d say start with this low-hanging fruit to try to please her: fill all the supplies the minute there’s any space left to fill. And if that doesn’t please her, then I’m afraid Southern Violet (below) is correct and she sucks and isn’t going to change. Honestly, I suspect that is the case anyway, but if you do exactly this thing the way she says she wants it and still thinks you’re failing, at least you have a better standing with HR to say, hey, I did the thing, it’s definitely her and not me. IME, that won’t really get you anywhere, but it might at least make you feel better about the situation.

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        1. CTT*

          Seconding all this, and want to not that if you’re concerned about being labeled having an attitude issue, doing things X way when you know for sure that boss wants it Y way is a really good way to get that label.

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          1. Slow Gin Lizz*

            Agreed. Hypo, why not think of it as an SOP: supplies need to be at 70% full or more? Seems like that’s the unwritten rule, so maybe make that the official rule in your own head?

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      2. JustMyImagination*

        Yes, and for stocking supplies if your standard is “full enough” but boss’s standard is “full to the brim” then you have to fill to the brim.

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      3. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

        I guess part of it is that my brain doesn’t think “oh, the coffee bin is low, better refill it!” when the bin is, like, 70% full. that is not low to me, and it wasn’t low to the other clerks, either. I think “coffee = low” when the bin only has, like 6 bags left and then I would refill it. BUT if she thinks 70% is low, then I guess I need to adapt that mentality even if it’s not what I would consider low….

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    4. Southern Violet*

      I think this falls under “your boss sucks and isnt going to change”. Rhe only remedy is finding a new job. Sorry.

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    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think what your boss assumed you would do is take coffee packets from wherever you store them and put them in Kitchen 1, rather than taking them from Kitchen 2 to Kitchen 1 (because now you also have to fill Kitchen 2 once that coffee maker is fixed).

      Anyway: I think you probably need to have a conversation with your boss about communication and priorities, because a lot of what you describe here could be her micromanaging, but it could be her not communicating effectively what she wants and you not asking follow up questions. A couple of examples:

      1) “I also can’t always get to tasks she tells me to do immediately, especially if there isn’t a due date, so sometimes she’ll send a “reminder” the next day. Maybe that’s part of it? ”

      If she’s not giving you a due date, ask for one! But also: immediately usually means “right now” and “drop everything to do this” and not “when you have time after whatever else you’re doing”, so I assume that’s a pretty big part of why she’s annoyed because she told you immediately and you heard “whenever”. If you have conflicting work that makes that difficult, you have to communicate that, e.g. “I have to finish XYZ for the 11am Operations meeting, but can start this after that” or “I’m working on XYZ today, which one of them would you like me to push back for the time being?”

      2) Supplies: it’s your job to check that supplies are low but she seemingly beats you to the punch every time. Maybe that’s her micromanaging, but maybe it’s also an unclear and unstated desire for the supplies to be topped up first thing in the morning and then again after lunch (or whatever schedule makes sense). You won’t know until you ask! Similarly, if the wish is for you to be more independent, you can say “I usually re-stock the coffee when there are five packets left in the storage container. Would you like me to do it more frequently than that?” That way she knows you have a system in place, you’re on top of the supplies, but that you’re open to change if you’ve missed something (like maybe there’s always a six packet meeting at 11am and they scramble every day to find another one). Rinse and repeat for things that are not coffee.

      Your boss kinda sucks but you need to be able to ask clarifying questions and anticipate needs when you’re in what sounds like a lower level role.

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    6. Tio*

      Ok, I think there are 2 problems muddling up together:
      1. Completing things on time
      2. Not knowing how to complete things or potentially not completing them in the manner they want

      So, I think you should start with 2. I think in the coffee example it feels like “Since the second kitchen doesn’t have a coffee maker until next week, I thought it would be fine to take some of their supply to restock first room. Would you rather I not?”
      But here’s the thing, the question I asked myself after reading that: How different is the time between taking coffee from 2 and moving to 1, vs getting additional coffee from wherever it’s held? Because eventually the coffee maker in 2 is going to be back and need coffee, and then you’re going to have to restock that, so all you did in this example was spend time moving coffee from 2 to 1 and then you’re still going to have to go back to stock room and restock, just restock to 2 instead of 1. So you’ve actually kind of made slightly more work by not just getting the restock from the stock room to begin with – which might be ok if the restock room is a significant time difference than pulling extra from kitchen 2. If that’s the case, then it becomes more of a “I thought I’d save some time today because I have X to work on, and refill both kitchens from the stock room later when I had more breathing room on tasks.” This is where 1 comes in – how busy are you?
      Now, is this kind of nitpicky? Yes, and it does not sound like they’re explaining their thinking well/at all, but it’s not as ridiculous as I could see a complaint being, and they have the position to be a little nitpicky. They’re saying “refill stock” and instead you’re rearranging stock and kicking the can down the road; given what you’ve said about them, I would go back and audit and see “am I doing exactly what I’m told or am I making interpretations like this?”. So if there wasn’t some kind of time reason that you needed to take that shortcut, I would not say anything about it. Given the larger picture here, I definitely would not say anything about this incident either way at this point, but knowing that this may be how they’re seeing it, I would try and avoid doing anything other than exactly what they told me.

      Now, returning to 1, how busy are you? Do you fill your day? How long does it usually take you to get you tasks done? Have your bosses given you any official prioritization instructions even for general types of tasks? If not, can you write out everything you do in a typical work day and week, and bring it to them and say “This is most of the stuff I’m handling. I have the prioritization of these items looking like this. Does that match how you want me to prioritize? It’s important to me that I get things done on time and when you need them, so I want to make sure I know what’s most important to you.”
      Also, what does your downtime look like? Do you have any? Do you have any routines built in like “At 3pm I go to the kitchen, check all stock levels, and restock anything low”? Do you make something like that something you do before you start your downtime?

      Also, nothing I’m writing here necessarily means your boss is right or that you’re doing things wrong, but these are the bosses you have and might help you work with them, so please take it in that manner

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      1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

        so I am the sole clerk for my law firm. there’s supposed to be two of us but the last clerk left and they have not replaced her. as a result, I should be checking and restocking three times a day, but in reality, that does not always happen. if I have someone who needs me to send out a fedex, or there’s an event to set up for, the kitchens are not always a priority like they should be, especially if something is 70% full and I think it’s okay. however, clearly my boss and I are not on the same page about something being “full” so I will need to adapt stocking to “is everything full?” because even though that’s not how I operate, that’s how she does.

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        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          Your boss’s version of things being full does sound completely illogical, but if she wants it done that way, it’s going to cause you a lot less trouble to just do it that way. My husband used to work for a law firm and, the few times I went over to his offices, the supplies of the free kitchen stuff were always totally full. The few times I’ve been on tech offices, it’s been the same. I think it’s much more of a display thing than a supply thing – their way of saying to visitors “look how well we are doing and how much money we have, we have so many free drinks/coffee supplies/snacks on hand!” So it may help you to think about it like you were stocking a store window or something similar.

          Regarding your other issue – I think you need to communicate with your boss much more proactively about your task priority list and what you are working on. Since she’s a micro-manager, you might have to micro-manage upwards. So send her an email every morning listing your tasks and priorities for the day. (Don’t make it a massively long list.) When she gives you a task, ask her where on your priority list it should go, if you’re not sure. If possible, get her into the habit of explicitly spelling out which tasks should always take precedence or to give you that info when she is assigning the task. Your boss seems like an awful person to work with, but she also seems quite stressed (probably in part due to being a person down on your team) and it also seems like she gets really anxious when you don’t do things the way she wants you to do them. Given that law firms are notorious for having high standards for office presentation and also for being abusive working environments, your boss may also be getting yelled at by the people above her when things don’t get done a specific way or within a tight time frame. (Of course, this in no way justifies your boss yelling at you, but these behaviours sometimes go all the way down the hierarchy.)

          I’m sorry that she yelled at you – I have been reading your posts and she seems like a terrible boss. I also think from your past posts and this one that your work and communication styles are mis-matched, and that’s probably contributing to the issues as well. I would also do some reading on managing upwards and effective and proactive communication skills. Even if those skills don’t ultimately work on your boss, the knowledge will still be useful for future jobs.

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          1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

            Thank you so much – I had never thought about managing upwards, but I will look into this!

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    7. RM*

      sounds like she is just kind of a micromanager who doesn’t trust other people to remember to do stuff!

      If she tells you that you should have done something a different way, do you really need to do anything other than say “Of course, I will do it this way in the future” in a positive and upbeat way? Logically, that doesn’t make sense for failing to read someone’s mind on the tiny details of a one-off task. However, I think it might emotionally satisfy her that you are listening to her feedback and care about doing things “correctly.”

      For the pre-emptive reminders about non-immediate tasks – is there a way to make your to-do list visible to her? Like if there’s a little whiteboard on your desk so she can see that thing she mentioned Monday is on the list to be done Wednesday.

      Finally, about the supplies, can you create a system? Like ‘pars’ in a warehouse or restaurant kitchen. You just check weekly (or longer interval if you have larger stockpiles) and re-order if you’re under par. She might do less fussing and checking if she knows that Hypoglycemic has calculated weekly consumption of each snack and reorders new snacks every Tuesday if stockpile of the snack is < 2x weekly consumption (or whatever number makes sense). Then she can limit her fussing to I think we need to change the cookie par from 16 to 20. Or she can just update the spreadsheet herself.

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    8. Seashell*

      If she’s sending you an email to do a task and a reminder email the next day, maybe you need to address the first email before a reminder is needed? I’m not sure from your comment if you’re responding to her at all, but if not, I’d go with telling her, “I should be able to get that done by 4pm” or whatever. If you’re not sure when something needs to be done by or when you will be able to get to it, ask if you should prioritize that over whatever other task you’re working on. If something is already done, let her know before the next day so she doesn’t have to bother with a reminder.

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      1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

        I think that’s a good point – if she doesn’t give me a deadline like EOD, I get to it when I can. sometimes it’s that day, sometimes it’s not. but I should be responding and letting her know that this is on my to-do list and I’ll get to it after I finish restocking the kitchens/filling the printer paper/whatever. I try to communicate if I don’t think I’ll be able to get something done that day, but I should probably be better about that. if she sends the reminder anyway, which she might, I at least have let her know that it’s on my list and the reminder is on her.

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    9. BuildMeUp*

      She definitely sounds frustrating! I think overall you just need to accept that this is the type of boss she is, and either adapt or find a new job.

      I’ve also worked jobs where restocking kitchen supplies was one of my duties, and the expectation with those was to do a sweep of the kitchen(s) every few hours and top off anything that people had used. So an hour or two after people started arriving in the morning, I would restock all the coffee pods so the containers were full. It does seem silly, because of course there are plenty of pods and people can still make coffee even if the bin isn’t full. But having the containers be full was an optics thing, and a way to make sure the containers never actually got empty. For the time being, I would just accept that this is one of your boss’s expectations and plan to check the kitchens and make sure everything looks the way she wants it.

      Reply ↓
      1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

        this is a good comment, thank you. I don’t know how well I can adapt to this, but I am going to try, because finding a new job will take longer than I think (I’ve never been one of those people who can find a job in a week).

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    10. blah*

      When I’m asked to do something, I always reply “When do you need that by?” because I work for multiple people. It helps me create mental deadlines for things. Eventually you learn which things will take priority.

      As for the kitchen snacks, you now know she wants them filled to the brim, so just do that.

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    11. Saturday*

      People are saying she’s a hopeless micromanager, and that might be true, but I think it’s worth making some changes to see if things work out better.

      Starting viewing your job as “keeping supplies fully stocked,” instead of “replacing supplies when they are low.”

      Try communicating more when you get a task, “Unless you have another deadline in mind, I’ll start working on this this afternoon and should have it completed by tomorrow” (or whatever). Over time, maybe she won’t need to hear that, but it sounds like right now she’d like more communication.

      Reply ↓
      1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

        I will definitely be trying more of the things suggested in dealing with her! I don’t know how much of a difference it’ll make, but hopefully I can make things a little more pleasant even if by just reframing the stocking as filling things up.

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    12. NaoNao*

      Ultimately it sounds like “job search” but in the meantime I’d start a list of her typical requests, and make it a checklist (perhaps sending it to her for approval) and then just get on top of the tasks as much as you can without asking. Like every day, “check on food levels and top off if needed”, “ensure all coffee is in operational order” but I’d also do *exactly* what she says and not take any initiative. Like she said refill the coffee? Refill coffee only, don’t switch coffee makers around or anything else, don’t interpret or go above and beyond. I’d also send out emails “coffee is refilled in Station A” to document you did *exactly* what was asked.

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    13. Seamyst*

      It may help your mindset to think of your boss as a rockstar or celebrity who has “ridiculous” demands, like 37 green M&Ms in a cut glass bowl or whatever. Sure, it isn’t something you’d do on your own, but that’s what she wants so that’s what she gets, right?

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    14. Kay*

      Looking at this it is clear that you and your boss do not communicate the same way.

      Think of the supplies this way – you and your boss are asked if the glass of water filled at 50% is half full or half empty. Your boss would obviously say the glass is half empty and you would say the glass is half full. Your boss has very clearly been saying that the supplies are not full enough yet you haven’t picked up on that.

      For the record I would also question an employee that chose to basically do twice the work of stocking the kitchens by emptying one to stock the other instead of just pulling from back stock, or when I asked for something to be done immediately yet I hadn’t heard anything about it the next day. She is micromanaging you likely because she feels she has to – in her mind she has given a directive and it isn’t being followed. Whether the workload is reasonable or not I can’t say.

      I would proactively be either asking for a deadline or letting her know when you can get to things and asking if priorities need to be shifted when you get more work. If she is managing your workload she expects things to be getting done faster than what you are doing them and if you can’t do that you need to be communicating with her about that. She wants you to be able to manage your workload and understand priorities without her constantly following up. No boss wants to feel like they constantly have to chase employees down for things they expected to be done already. These expectations are going to be present in most law offices or high paced sectors, so you may want to consider a different type of environment if you are looking for a new job.

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      1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

        while it is now very clear my boss and I don’t communicate the same way, I know other clerks had the same problems I am having.

        I do want to make it clear that she’d be managing my workload/projects from other people regardless – it’s policy to go through the person’s manager at this firm. someone would not just ask me to do something without looping her in.

        And by “I don’t get things done immediately” I mean more along the lines of she sends me an email asking me to go around the office and update the phone directory. She wants it done by EOD. I’ll get it done by then, but I might not be able to start on it right away. If she tells me to start on it regardless of what I am doing, I will.

        I will get better at communicating my timeline of tasks or other things I am doing, if I am unable to do The Thing, like, Right Now.

        BTW, your “glass half full” example made a lot of sense!! I think thinking of it like that will help. :)

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    15. JB*

      You need to work to her definitions.

      If “not filled to the brim” = “low” for this manager, then that is the way you think about it too while you’re working this job.

      It may be unreasonable or silly. It also may be that the visual of something being full is important here and she understands this better than you because of her position. But if it’s consistently happening that she’s telling you “fill everything in X kitchen” and then checks your work and things are not filled to HER standards, then yes, she is going to feel like you can’t be trusted to do the job on your own.

      All of this I am saying with the understanding that she’s probably not a great person to work for. Managers in positions like this often are not – the job doesn’t pay enough to attract good managers, and the fact that she yelled at you (which is, yes, never appropriate) also indicates that it’s bad. But if you want to look like a good employee, you do have to do the best to meet her expectations when they are possible, even if it seems silly or impractical.

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      1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

        that’s the theme I am picking up on in this thread – that yes, her expectations might be silly or unreasonable or whatever, but they’re hers, and I should do my best to meet them. I think thinking of restocking as “fillings everything up” instead should hopefully help a lot. and I will be communicating more with her about when I will be able to get something done.

        I also wonder if part of this is because over the summer she let one of the co-clerks go because of “attitude problems.” but this clerk had been used to doing things her way (started well before my boss), and I guess there was a lot of stuff my manager didn’t know about (like entire spreadsheets for printer inventory), which we didn’t find out she didn’t know about until after said co-clerk had left. so I wonder if she’s trying to avoid that happening again, her not being in the loop on stuff. she is also the first person as office manager – before her the role did not exist.

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    16. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

      thank you to everyone who has given advice so far!!! I do really appreciate it.

      going forward, I will do my best to communicate my timeline of stuff for my boss, and ask for a due date if she doesn’t give one and it’s not something I’ll be able to do that day. if she makes it clear that it’s something that needs to be done Right Now, I drop whatever I am doing and do that. but she doesn’t always make it clear, so I should definitely get more information right when she asks.

      I will also never see eye to eye with her on the stocking of supplies or things being “low,” but I am going to do my best to do what she says and make sure they’re stocked to the brim.

      but working for her is A Lot to Deal With and I am looking for other jobs that are not admin-based – or at least not like this. I don’t think I’m the best fit for this job, and while my boss doesn’t help, it’s def my fault, too, and while I don’t love getting micromanaged, I’m sure on some level it’s warranted, especially if she’s getting heat from higher ups.

      I really don’t want to make anyone’s life harder, so from here on out I am going to try and do better.

      having typed all that, I do think that a large part of this is just who my boss is (a micromanager) – because I’ve watched her do this to other clerks, too.

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  8. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    I’m curious about what people’s opinions are on this job posting below. Especially with the letter earlier this week about the terrible on that was likely generated by AI. It’s long, but I think it does a fantastic job of setting expectations on both sides so clearly. I’ve never seen a posting before where they give you detailed information about pay, benefits, who you’ll be working for and what the position entails.

    https://ynab.pinpointhq.com/postings/166e1cbd-693f-46b4-b298-81cd2989cdad?utm_medium=social&utm_source=YNAB+Social+Media

    I just wish I was qualified for it!

    Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      I’d say overall my vibe is that you’ll be getting a workplace with really clear communication, solid benefits, and a lot of expectation that you’ll be self-starting and self-driven. It runs the potential risk of being a bit too peppy, especially before coffee. I’m also seeing distinct undertones of looking for someone passionate about the app itself and personal budgeting in general, which isn’t unreasonable at a small company. I’d be more worried about that if they didn’t spell their benefits out really clearly. As it is I might want to talk with some of the employees there without the manager and get an idea of how closely the day-to-day matches the job description, but that would just be my “covering-the-bases” interviewing process.

      If I were a project manager, I’d apply without much of a second thought.

      Reply ↓
      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        It reminds me of the job descriptions at my last job, except even more so, and having seen how that company compared to its job descriptions, I think you’re spot on. The coworkers are probably A LOT, but if it’s an environment that works for you, it’s very likely a great place to work.

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    3. MissBliss*

      I hear that YNAB is a really good place to work, so I am not surprised that they’d have a thorough job description!

      Reply ↓
    5. Green Goose*

      I love it, especially breaking down the group of people the role would work with. I’m casually looking and I’d love a jd like this.

      Reply ↓
    6. Productivity Pigeon*

      I liked it!

      Sure, it was a little corny but I also thought it gave a very clear picture of what it’s like to work there and what they were expecting.

      Reply ↓
  9. Asking too much*

    Can I vent?

    I am looking for senior- and principal-level technical writing roles. I have over 20 YOE. I am SO SICK of constant job postings that expect me to have years of coding experience. I am NOT a software engineer. If I was, I would do that job, and earn the appropriate salary for it. You want a champagne employee on a beer budget, and you can BITE ME.

    Anyone else who is looking at job postings that expect the world for free: please go off.

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    1. Grrr*

      Ugh yes, I’m a grantwriter and I increasingly see posts that want the position to write, manage *and implement* the grant. Uh, just writing millions of dollars in grants every year is a lot of work already. Doing all the reporting is pretty common, but my expectation is that program staff is going to do the Big Lift on that (apparently, not so much anymore). If I’m also in any way implementing 40-50 grants that seems like a LOT to add on top of that!!

      Reply ↓
      1. Ama*

        I am only looking for contract /part time nonprofit jobs right now (I have my own freelance consulting business and am always looking in case something fits with my prior experience) and the whole sector is completely unrealistic about hiring right now. They either are trying to fill four skillsets with one position or pay what works out to barely minimum wage once you figure out how much time the work they want will take (saw a repeated posting for a 20 hour a week job as a managing editor of an academic journal that only paid 15K).

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      2. MsM*

        Yeah, if that’s what you’re looking for, you don’t want a grant writer. You want a program person who doesn’t mind writing their own grants. (Which, good luck with that unless you’re planning to pay them in a way that reflects they’re doing at least two jobs.)

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    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      A principal-level technical writer doesn’t make more than a junior level software engineer? That surprises me. I would have thought that someone with that skillset would be making at least close to six figures if not more.

      Reply ↓
    3. Procedure Publisher*

      I saw a tech writer role that wanted a CPA or something similar. That was the only requirement I didn’t meet for it. My accountant sister explained why it would be weird for a CPA to want that position.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        Unless it’s a tech writer role for specifically accounting documentation it would indeed be VERY weird that they want a CPA for it. To my knowledge there’s basically no crossover.

        Reply ↓
    4. CL*

      Feel your frustration. I wonder if we are going to see more of this combining jobs and part-time writing as the unreasonable expectation grows that ChatGPT can write anything you need.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mockingjay*

        Ding Ding Ding! I completely agree.

        I’m fortunate to be a TW in an industry that doesn’t permit AI tools for security reasons (yet), but I’ve still noticed a sea change in writing standards – NOT for the better. There are so many generative tools that can produce voluminous copy, even outside of AI, and management and engineers think we’re just here to make that generated text into “pretty” or “nice” documents. They have no idea about all the other things we do: ensuring the doc complies with government and industry standards, consulting with experts to validate technical data before publishing, writing to a prescribed level depending on user/audience, adjusting fonts and format for print vs. screen display, document management and file storage, etc.

        Now my company has gotten us Adobe Creative tools and we are encouraged to use Photoshop and learn Illustrator (on our own), so we can help out the drafting team by taking small diagrams off their plates and produce corporate brochures for the C-suite. One of my coworkers was asked to fill in as a minutes taker on a new project for months, because they hadn’t hired an admin yet.

        It’s going to get worse, especially for new and mid-career TWs. Job scope and commensurate pay are going to be issues. I make about what the engineers do (six figures), but I’m an outlier, mainly because I’m old and nearing retirement. My younger colleagues may never hit an equivalent pay level, even though they are far more talented than I am. (I mean that sincerely. Our current doc team is phenomenal.)

        Reply ↓
        1. Elizabeth West*

          Gaaaahhhh. If you want me to learn something specifically for a particular job, then you can pay for it AND adjust my schedule so I have time to learn it.

          I may have to work until I die, but at least I’m not going to do it on my own time.

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    5. An Australian in London*

      I had a recruiter cold call me for a UK job for a senior DBA who is also a sysadmin and database developer. The ad also wanted multiple rare niche products that are not widely known, and to a senior level. They wanted 7-10 YOE.

      They offered £35k.

      I pointed out that was below some starting salaries for fresh graduates, none of whom would know the niche products, and said I’d consider £35k a year for 12 hours/week especially if I do arrange those around a 9-5 day job.

      There was no second interview.

      Reply ↓
    6. NaoNao*

      I’m in Instructional Design and frequently see 5-6 jobs in one, including videographer (which is very irritating as a former job had an entire specialized staff to do that for very good reasons!), graphic designer, trainer, succession planning, professional development, and technical writer. Plus LMS back end stuff.

      Reply ↓
    7. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

      I recently saw a job ad for a copy editor that looked great. The company seemed like it had a fun vibe, was progressive, and the pay was ok. But they had one requirement for applicants that drove me nuts. We were supposed to find the error on their website and note what it was and how we’d fix it in our cover letter. Okay, annoying requirement at the start, especially since there’s no site map, but this is the kind of things I’ve seen before. Except they also said we need to use our browser’s developer tools to look at the site code because the error might be in there.

      This is a copy editor position, not a coder or web dev position. From the job description, there’s nothing requiring coding experience and they certainly weren’t offering a salary bump for those skills.

      I decided not to apply but a web dev friend of mine did. She said she couldn’t find an error anywhere and said so in her cover letter. She got an interview, which is when she found out they really want someone to also be a copy editor AND their web dev but they didn’t want to pay for both.

      Reply ↓
        1. Anne Shirley Blythe*

          Absolutely agree. How underhanded! I frequently proof sections of our website without ever checking under the hood. Our web developer makes the changes or uses my Word file, and all is well!

          Reply ↓
    8. Eleri*

      I encountered this a lot during my last job search. I am in data/analytics, but have held more functional/strategy type roles as opposed to highly technical roles. I was looking for precisely more functional/strategy type roles – since that’s what my experience is, and it’s what I enjoy – and all these companies basically expected their “analytics manager” to be an expert-level developer, a chief data officer, and an operational people manager all rolled into one. With the salary of only one person of course (that wasn’t that great btw). I’m talking big organizations with large data teams – if you want me to manage a team of 15+ programmers, I am not going to have time to do programming myself. I can understand wanting someone with technical acumen to lead the team, but a majority of the job descriptions were really 3+ positions worth of responsibilities smooshed into one. Oh yeah and like 15+ years of “hands-on programming” experience in a ton of languages. Any one of those roles is its own career path – it’s highly unlikely anyone is going to get someone with all that experience, especially at the salaries they were offering.

      Reply ↓
    9. Anne Shirley Blythe*

      So sorry to hear this and I wish you better luck. I can only speak to the writing and editing arena and am curious if this happens in other fields. Sooo many hiring managers think they ask for a writer or editor while also asking for a half dozen other things. No, I am not going to hunt down new clients. No, I am not going to design for you. No, I am not going to create and implement new marketing strategies. No, I do not have a JD degree, and why did you mention that at the very end? And a tangential pet peeve—saying they want an editor (thus it comes up in my search) when they strictly want a writer!!

      Reply ↓
    10. Elizabeth West*

      I saw one for a technical writer when I was job hunting in 2023 that wanted the candidate to have 1) a STEM degree, and 2) a PMI certification. For $19 an hour.

      *blinks*

      Reply ↓
  10. ShazamIT*

    With extreme cold likely early next week, what’s the best way to phrase asking for work from home or time off? My bosses generally don’t like WFH, so I kinda want to vibe check. I know some places (better places) you could just say hey Im working from home, this cold is intense

    Reply ↓
    1. Dust Bunny*

      Is there a specific reason that the cold should justify working from home?

      I’m in Houston, which is due to get uncommonly cold (for the area) next week, but unless there is precipitation that causes things to ice over and make driving unsafe, in which case my workplace will probably tell me to WFH, anyway, there isn’t really any reason I can’t get to work–I just need to bundle up a bit more to do it (I usually ride the bus and train, which are enclosed and heated).

      Reply ↓
      1. ThatGirl*

        I don’t know where ShazamIT is, but in Chicagoland it’s going to be highs in the single digits with sub-zero windchills likely. That can cause cars to have trouble starting and be dangerous for commuters or anyone who needs to walk any distance from transport to office. While we’re used to cold, that’s colder than typical here.

        Shazam, I would say if you have specific reasons why your commute could be dangerous, I’d probably frame it that way.

        Reply ↓
        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          This. If it’s going to make your commute dangerous, or add a ridiculous amount of time to your commute for some reason, then talk about that.

          Reply ↓
        2. PurplePeopleEater*

          When I was in Chicagoland and commuted via Metra, I always checked Chicago Public Schools: if they told kids to stay home due to cold, I worked from home and encouraged other folks I managed to do the same if they had any concerns.

          Reply ↓
        3. ShazamIT*

          Yes it’s the walking outdoors being unsafe. The forecast says the temp will be -8F with winds and estimated windchill -20sF. I have a 30min walk as part of my commute, so that’s bordering on frostbite risk for me.

          Reply ↓
          1. LimeRoos*

            Yeah, definitely check then. Walking commute with that cold of windchill is not worth it and hopefully they’re sympathetic.

            Reply ↓
          3. Funko Pops Day*

            If there’s any kind of Official Guidance you can point to (“The NWS is recommending people avoid spending prolonged time outdoors, and I have a 30 minute walk as part of my commute”/”The City has issued a Warning instructing nonessential workers to stay home”), I think that will also help frame this as “dangerous conditions for my commute” rather than “I don’t wanna go out in the cold”

            Reply ↓
      2. ShazamIT*

        The forecast says the temp will be -8F with winds and estimated windchill -20sF. I have a 30min walk as part of my commute, so that’s bordering on frostbite risk for me.

        Reply ↓
        1. HonorBox*

          I grew up in the Midwest and understand cold temperatures. Without this clarification, I was going to tell you that you might just have to go in because people do deal with cold temperatures. But, if you’re walking 30 min, that is potentially problematic. Especially at the beginning and end of the normal work day, you’re not going to have tons of sunlight to help you feel warmer.

          While you have a legitimate request already, I think it might make it harder to deny if you can offer that you’ve checked alternate options. For instance the following:
          *I have checked around and no one lives close by enough to give me a ride
          *I did some checking and finding an Uber early on Tuesdays is unreliable at best
          *Looking at NWS information, they don’t recommend exposure to the temperatures of more than 8-9 minutes.

          I think the more information you can proactively share showing that you’ve done some due diligence and aren’t just trying to not come in because you’re chilly (I’m not saying that myself, by the way) the stronger your case is.

          Reply ↓
    2. WorkerDrone*

      My workplace would also need a specific reason for why the cold meant I couldn’t get in, though, I do live in the Northeast so bad winter weather is very common. The cold alone wouldn’t justify WFH.

      If you live somewhere not used to winter weather or the cold, I can see why you might be worried about navigating potentially icy roads without the infrastructure to properly salt/clear them and I think you would just say that when asking.

      Reply ↓
    3. Spreadsheet Queen*

      Yeah, mine is one where I can just say “I’m working from home.” (And I probably will. My pipes are prone to freezing, even though there is technically sufficient insulation, yada, yada. So, if it’s going to be below freezing for more than a few hours, I have to drip my faucets. I’m not a big fan of dripping them when I’m not home when the cold is more extreme – because something could still go wrong and I want to be there in case I need to shut off the water.) In parts of the country where these sorts of temps only happen a couple of times per year, I think if your work CAN be done from home, it’s perfectly reasonable to ask. Plus, bonus, you can set your thermostat (or run a space heater) however you want instead of shivering in your always too cold in office space.

      Reply ↓
    4. Anne*

      I would not recommend asking to WFH just because it’s cold, especially since your bosses are pro-WFH anyway. It’s a pretty hard sell. Heck, I’m normally in favor of WFH, and I’m having a hard time believing the cold is a good reason to stay home. (If the roads were dangerous/icy, that would be different. But just the cold? Throw on an extra layer or two and wear proper outdoor wear.)

      Reply ↓
      1. ShazamIT*

        The forecast says the temp will be -8F with winds and estimated windchill -20sF. I have a 30min walk as part of my commute, so that’s bordering on frostbite risk for me. Yeah I know it’s wimpy to not want to work in person when it’s cold, it’s just a pain to have to do that many layers….

        Reply ↓
        1. Anne*

          I still think you’re going to have a hard sell to your bosses. I would also advise to not mention it is a pain to put multiple layers on when speaking with them; it really does not help your argument.

          Reply ↓
        2. Tradd*

          I grew up in a really cold part of the Midwest. I think you’re going to have a really hard sell. Mentioning the multiple layers of clothing being a pain would not be in your favor.

          Reply ↓
          1. Don't Call Me Shirley*

            That is barely elementary kids get indoor recess cold – it’s a temperature you dress for. I don’t think it’s a compelling case to stay home in a place this is normal cold winter day.

            Reply ↓
        3. Kay*

          Is cold weather typical for your area? If so your bosses are likely going to categorize this as “you are expected to be able to get to work under normal circumstances” and these fall within normal circumstances.

          Reply ↓
    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Canadian bias here, but cold alone would definitely not be justification for WFH in my workplace. Inclement weather, possibly, but mere cold during winter would never fly. I don’t love leaving the house on days when it’s bitterly cold either, but that’s kinda the nature of life in a cold location.

      Is there a reason you want to WFH due to the cold, besides preferring WFH or not wanting to go outside when it’s super cold (both reasons I fully understand and subscribe to)?

      Reply ↓
      1. ShazamIT*

        The forecast says the temp will be -8F with winds and estimated windchill -20sF. I have a 30min walk as part of my commute, so that’s bordering on frostbite risk for me.

        Reply ↓
        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Okay yeah I definitely wouldn’t want to walk for half an hour in that temperature (-22C / – 28C with wind chill for us Celsius folks).

          That’s the angle I would go with then: my commute involves a half hour walk and this temperature is untenable for that length of time. If your boss wouldn’t react poorly, I’d also say something like “I’m happy to come in, of course, if the company wants to reimburse me for a taxi, which will be $X round trip, but I can also work from home if that’s easiest.”

          Reply ↓
          3. Funko Pops Day*

            Agree but with the slight edit to “this temperature is dangerous for that amount of time”. The issue isn’t that it’s unpleasant, it’s that it could foreseeably result in bodily harm.

            Reply ↓
          4. Kay*

            I think the OP needs to account for the fact that a non WFH supportive office is going to expect an employee to have reliable transportation to the office as a requirement for the job. I normally walk to the office means I pay for my own taxi should I not walk – not, because my chosen form of commuting doesn’t work for me today the company should pick up the tab. The possibility management will not be pleased with this request is probably high.

            Reply ↓
            1. Caramel & Cheddar*

              Yes that’s why I said only to say it “if your boss wouldn’t react poorly.” If you think they won’t be pleased with the request, don’t ask.

              Reply ↓
    6. LimeRoos*

      So it really depends – agree with a lot of others that cold alone usually doesn’t cut it, but the area and wind chill are factors. I’m in Minneapolis and prior to covid, I’d only be working from home when my car battery didn’t start (once it died at work, that was fun lol). Once the windchill gets -20 to -30, that’s when I’ve noticed even the non-wfh companies are more flexible with wfh. Solid chance we hit that next week. I’d go with ThatGirl’s suggestion with framing if you’re in a below 0 area or there’s a big snow/ice risk, otherwise you’ll probably just have to bundle up.

      Reply ↓
    7. Gaia Madre*

      Wait until the day of and say: “My car won’t start this morning, the cold killed the battery, so I’ll work from home if that’s ok, thanks.”

      Reply ↓
  11. Throwaway Account*

    I’m wondering how many of you who are exempt from overtime also manage your own time. Meaning:
    1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done?
    2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons?
    3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time?
    4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely?
    5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO?

    I just want to get a sense of how this works in most workplaces.

    Reply ↓
    1. Grrr*

      Yes, but I have a very individual-contributor type role. These things kind of depend on that. If I had to be constantly interacting to get anything done, it would not be as easy to swap daytime for evening hours or decide I’ve met my own deliverables enough for the day that I’m going to stop working. Also, in my role, we don’t have time sheets. I’m expected to complete my work in more or less 35 hours / wk but nobody’s monitoring that. My boss would talk to me if I was always weirdly unavailable when someone needed me or if I wasn’t getting my job done.

      Reply ↓
    2. WorkerDrone*

      1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done?

      Generally, yes, if it’s not too often.

      If it’s happening more frequently, then optics start to come into play, and I’ll make the time up even if I don’t really need to.

      2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons?

      Kind of? We’re pretty flexible and the culture is that some days you’ll stay late, some days you’ll leave early. We don’t do a strict one-to-one exchange, like, Tuesday I stayed late so Wednesday I’ll come in late. It’s more, this week I had to stay late four times. Next month will be our slow period so I’ll leave a little early a few times.

      3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time?

      Generally no (see above). A busy period might mean I don’t get to take flex or comp time right then, but eventually it evens out.

      4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely?

      Nope!

      5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO?

      Also nope.

      Reply ↓
    3. Tea Monk*

      My workplace is unique, but mostly I just kinda come and go. If there’s a meeting I’ll be there on time, but sometimes there’ll be a work emergency and I’ll be late. This happens more often to other people.

      The fact that we always work extra and have on call with no comp time is why my boss lets it slide if I have a doctor’s appointment. I don’t track my time. I usually just decide I’m working 9 to 6 if I don’t have any meetings that require me to work beyond that. Like one day I got home at 7:40. I don’t work as long as everyone else and in general if it’s not done by 7 pm, it’s not getting done.

      But maybe Im a slacker.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tea Monk*

        I do sometimes work on weekends to get caught up, and hate it when people call me at 7 am. ( I’ve trained everyone from calling me on weekends or at night)

        Reply ↓
    4. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

      I’m exempt and my manager has set the precedent that as long as the work gets done and emails/calls are answered in a timely manner, it’s ok to take time away during the day for errands or appointments. I don’t track my time but I do try to be available from 9 to 5 most days. If I know I’ll have to be away during the day for an appointment, I’ll usually start working early. My manager often needs to take calls from the car picking up their kids or change times on things due to childcare duties and I don’t mind at all. I get my work finished on time and stay proactive, and that seems to keep everyone happy.

      Reply ↓
    5. Dust Bunny*

      I am not exempt but about half my workplace is and the general operating procedure is:

      1. Not routinely. Unless their position is intentionally part-time the expectation here is that everyone works 40 hours a week, with only rare exceptions.
      2. Yes.
      3. No. We are virtually never expected to work overtime, nor to do any work outside of a normal work day, WFH or not.
      4. No. I think this would only happen if you were actually on a PIP.
      5. No. We’re asked to use PTO in half-day/4-hour blocks. Nobody cares if you take an hour here and there as long as it’s not a regular thing. (We’re not understaffed but there is plenty of work to do here. Running out isn’t really a thing.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Dust Bunny*

        If this matters, we serve patrons and have core hours, so while there is some flexibility we can’t accommodate, say, someone working from noon into the late evening as a regular thing.

        Reply ↓
    6. Tippy*

      For both my current and last job I was exempt, salaried.
      1. Yes for current; typically yes for old one just depended on meetings that were already scheduled.
      2. Yes for both
      3. Yes for both. My current job doesn’t really do flex/comp time and the last one was weird enough that if I pushed for it I probably could have gotten it but in the long run it would made my day to day harder.
      4. no to both
      5. no to both

      Reply ↓
    7. ThatGirl*

      1. Yes
      2. Yes
      3. Not required to, but I also don’t fuss too much over a daily accounting since I have a lot of flexibility
      4. No
      5. No, but if I have something that will take more than, say, 20 minutes I count it as “lunch” and more than an hour that’s non-medical, I take a half day.

      Reply ↓
    8. The Other Evil HR Lady*

      I am exempt and salary, but I do have “service hours,” so to speak, that I’m normally expected to be at work (I work in-office). That’s the nature of my role because I support a large population of in-person workers. But, if I need to come in late or leave early, I just do. I also work nearly 12 hours every Monday because of reasons (I don’t have to, I just do it to make sure I don’t fall behind). I don’t track my time, but I do punch in and out – I still don’t know why, because I’ve forgotten to punch and I still get paid my salary (I’m new-ish to the company and no one has explained it yet). But, all exempt employees must clock in/out, and I don’t really mind as long as my check looks the same as every other check.

      At any rate, I don’t see working over 40 hours as me “eating my time,” because my extra hours are not wildly above 40, and I do get flexibility in other areas. At this employer, I don’t have to use up PTO if I’m gone for an hour and only work 39 hours one week. There are other employers who do ask that – but that’s their prerogative, since PTO is a benefit that the employer controls (this assumes that we’re not in a state that guarantees time off, etc. – which I’m not).

      Reply ↓
    9. PokemonGoToThePolls*

      I’m required to report at least 40 hours on my timesheet each week as an individual contributor who works on customer and internal projects (less any holidays/PTO), and the level of detail that’s submitted seems to vary by person. I’ve been told I’m one of the more-detailed people, so:
      1. I have to have 40 hours/week so the time must be made up somewhere
      2. It hasn’t ever been a problem to work longer one day and less another, as long as they’re in the same week (see 40 hours/week timesheet)
      3. This has never happened to me but others do work long hours with no makeup, though my boss is insistent that they do not need to do this and have never been asked to do this and rather have been asked to share work so this doesn’t happen
      4. We don’t have anything in writing as to how detailed our timesheets need to be, but for mine it tends to look like “30m, start day; 1h, review project notes and make updates; 15m, reboot and update pc; 20m, track time on timesheet” etc. I have been told that I’m more detailed than most
      5. No, as long as it gets made up somewhere during the week, this isn’t a problem. I usually do take PTO for Drs appointments, though, since you never know how long they will be or how long you’ll have to wait to be seen, etc, and I’d rather have a less-stressful half-day (we have unlimited PTO)

      Reply ↓
    10. JMR*

      I’m exempt and a manager, and I have never tracked hours or “made up” time. I don’t use PTO for short appointments, even personal ones. I do what I can to schedule around work commitments, but if that’s not possible and I have to miss something where my absence will be noticed, I will give my boss a heads-up. (I have one medical provider who never has a ton of appointments available, so I have to take what I can get.) But most of the time, I just block off the time on my calendar and vanish for a bit, and no one cares. I do work after-hours sometimes, but I don’t nickel-and-dime it. Like, I wouldn’t think, “I left an hour early today to run to the dentist, so I have to work an hour this evening to make up for it.” As long as stuff gets done and it doesn’t seem to be happening too often, it’s fine.

      Reply ↓
    11. sdog*

      ugh, nesting fail, I ended up down at the bottom:
      I’d say this varies so much from one workplace to the next and also even internally from one manager to the next. Mine is pretty flexible but asks that we be generally available during the regular workday (I’m not public facing but do work with others who or who work standard business hours and rely on me to be available). So while I manage my own time, I communicate if I know I’ll significantly veer from the schedule. Boss is flexible if I say that I need to flex my schedule, for example, during school breaks (and the reality is that she likely wouldn’t notice anyway), but I let her know her anyway and make sure that I’m putting in the time even if it’s not during the normal hours.

      If I’m cutting out for short periods to say, pick up a kid or drop kid off to an activity, I don’t announce it and don’t usually make up the time. Today, for example, I’ll likely put in some solid time from 10-4 and call it good. If I’m running late here or there, or need to leave a bit early, I don’t mention it. I have evening meetings often, and those days, I come in late that day or the following day without announcing. I often take longer breaks or take calls while I’m out walking during lunch. Since I often get pulled into meetings, I’ll block off times that I might need for personal appointments and errands but won’t necessarily make up that time later.

      I work for a government agency, so I do have to report hours, but I rarely track it closely and just put full 8 hour days regardless of what I actually work (unless I’ve requested leave).

      All that being said, I also often work a lot more than 40 hours. If things need to get done, I do them, even if it means late nights or weekends. I am the only person that does what I do in my group/agency, so it’d be obvious if it didn’t get done. This is why I feel comfortable “slacking” off at other times. I’m conscientious about getting everything done and being communicative where I feel it’s needed, and I like to think those qualities over the years have earned me the flexibility that I now have.

      I also think I have a reasonable boss and if I ever felt that my workload was requiring me to eat up too many hours, she’d find a way to get me help.

      Reply ↓
    12. Fake Cheese*

      For context, I’m a project manager in a tech-adjacent services industry. I’m also on the west coast of the US and my team is mostly on the east coast or in Europe

      1. As long as it’s less than 2 hours and I don’t have any meeting conflicts. However, due to time zones, I generally schedule appointments in the afternoon so I can leave early rather than arrive late. It’s better for me to cut into “solo” work time than collaboration time

      2. On a case by case basis, yes. I am allowed informal “comp” time if I really push and work extra hours to get a project delivered or something. However, sometimes that gets delayed until the end of the project, at which point my line manager generally looks the other way while I work a few shorter days to recover. Again, I generally err on the side of leaving early rather than arriving late.

      3. Similar to 2 – it’s case by case. My grandboss is big on balance though, so if I’ve been working 12 hour days for the last 2 weeks of the project, they’ll generally tell me to take a couple short days after it ends (without logging PTO).

      4. Kind of? I don’t have to track “I worked 7:25 – 11:53 and 1:02 – 4:35 on Tuesday,” but I do need to log the hours I spend on each project for budgeting purposes.

      5. Generally no. Our PTO system makes it difficult to log less than 4 hours. I’ll usually flex my weekly schedule to make up for up to 2 hours, and between 2 and 4 I’ll run it by my line manager. It’s generally understood that in my industry sometimes we’re working 35 hour weeks and other times we’re working 50 hour weeks.

      Reply ↓
    13. Sporadic Park*

      1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done? Yes, although I have a rule of thumb that if I am truly unavailable (or *should* be truly unavailable, e.g. at a doctors appointment or getting a haircut) when I am late or otherwise out of the office, I will take PTO.
      2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons? Sure.
      3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time? Not required that I know of, although a previous boss at this same institution once told me comp time wasn’t a thing (even though I 100% managed my own schedule)
      4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely? Not at all.
      5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO? See my answer to #1. This is generally at my own discretion.

      Reply ↓
    14. Wilbur*

      My workplace has gotten much better about flexibility and remote work since the pandemic.

      1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done?
      No one’s really tracking hours, but the expectation is that you’re going to work 80 hours over the course of 2 weeks. Prior to the pandemic we had a policy where you could work 8 hour days, 4x 10 hrs, or 4×9 and either work every other Friday or a 1/2 day every Friday.

      2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons?
      We can flex our time. I have a lot of meetings with people in Asia, so very early morning and late night meetings are common. They’ve asked us to have core hours from 10-2 and to be in office T/W/Th to the best of our abilities.

      3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time?
      Not really, there is an idea that some weeks will be very busy but you can kind of flex it to a certain degree. Work travel is the most egregious of these, days can be ~12 hours long (travel to factory, workshop, business dinner, more travel). Flying to Asia usually involves leaving on a Sunday and trying to squeeze as much as you can in that week, so it can be hard to flex that many hours.
      4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely?
      No. We do submit our hours, but there’s only a few categories we charge them to.
      5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO?
      No, they understand if they want me to be flexible for the business they need to be flexible for my life.

      That being said, while executive leadership approves of these policies they’ve repeatedly shown themselves to be out of touch. My division has made it pretty clear that if the company becomes less flexible, we will also be less flexible.

      Reply ↓
    15. dulcinea47*

      I was told several things (by my supervisor, not by HR) that aren’t in line with how salaried jobs are supposed to work. Luckily, I do manage my own time, so as long as I get 40ish hours of work done, I’m satisfied.

      I also have the kind of job where my work is never “done”. There’s literally always more for me to do.

      Reply ↓
    16. Medium Sized Manager*

      1. We don’t have set start and end times, so yes as long as it’s within reason. For example, I work out in the morning and sometimes don’t start until closer to 930-10, but I am in EST and my team is across the US so they are not affected by these start times. I don’t usually make up the time but will stay later if work needs to be finished.
      2. Yes, if we have a late release or long days, can either come in late or leave early.
      3. We don’t track super close like working 3 hours extra in one week resulting in flex time, but if I worked 6 days in one week, I would definitely take the flex day. We don’t have comp time to my knowledge.
      4. No
      5. No – I only take PTO if I was unavailable to work and could not make up any of the time (ex: sick for a few days).

      Fair warning: I have a very casual culture and my boss places strong emphasis on a work life balance where we are never expected to work more than 40 hours a week. We are also internal and not client facing, which affords more flexibility.

      Reply ↓
    17. 2 Steps Forward*

      I’m an exempt employee. My company expects me to be in the office from 8:30am – 5:30pm Monday through Friday as a general rule, but I have a lot of flexibility.

      1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done?
      Generally yes. Part of my work is meeting with people, so of course I have to honor those appointments

      2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons?
      Yes, but it’s not expected to be “comp time”. If I have an AM appointment, I come in late. If my work requires me to stay late, I stay late. My boss / company expect that I will be available starting at 8:30 regardless of what other hours I worked unless there is a reason.

      3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time?
      We don’t have comp time, but I have the flexibility to handle personal appointments and things.

      4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely?
      No, I don’t track my time at all. The important things are – the work gets done and that I’m generally available as needed during normal business hours. I don’t have a job where I have to respond instantly during those hours either – I generally respond to urgent incoming requests within an hour, unless I’ve set my calendar to show I’m away

      5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO?
      No. For example, I left at 4pm last Friday to take my son to an event, and didn’t use PTO. My work is well handled. I may not have worked a full 40 hours last week but it didn’t matter

      Reply ↓
    18. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      1) Yes, if it was less than half a day.
      2) yes, technically, again if it was less than half a day.
      3) required? Not usually. Does it happen? Sometimes during like project deadlines.
      4) Nope – there’s a time card but for salaried folks it defaults to 8a-430p regardless of actual work hours and is only there for purposes of assigning everyone 40 hours a week and monitoring PTO usage. Individual managers have to figure out what works for their salaried reports as far as the necessity of monitoring actual hours. I’ve never had a manager who was super picky about it, but I’ve also never been inclined to short my hours and need closer monitoring.
      5) No, our policy is that as long as you work minimum 5 hours it counts as a full day, with an understanding that this is a sometimes thing, not an everyday thing.

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    19. Llellayena*

      My job is billable so it’s a little different from many exempt office jobs. I can flex when I come in and when I leave for lunch/appointments, but I need to track my hours and log 40 hours each week, whether work time or PTO. I can’t flex outside of the week (so no making up 2 hours from one week in the next week). I am not required to work outside the 40hrs, but when I do and I log the time, my company does pay overtime (at flat time though). I can choose not to log extra hours but that is somewhat frowned on because it throws the calculation for number of hours to finish a project (it does happen though).

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    20. WantonSeedStitch*

      Speaking as an exempt person in a management role who still has individual contributor duties:

      1) Yeah, pretty much, but if I’m coming in late, it’s considered a courtesy to let my manager and my direct reports known.
      2) Maybe? I’ve never bothered.
      3) No one ever tells me I need to work extra hours. If the work requires extra time, I need to put it in, but I hear “get X done by [date],” not “you have to stay until 6 tonight/work through lunch/come in early.”
      4) No.
      5) For non-medical reasons? No. Vacation time only comes in half-day chunks, so if we’re going to take any vacation time, it’s at least half a day. For medical appointments or logging off early due to illness, we use sick time, but we get sick time that is close to unlimited.

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    21. Tradd*

      Int’l transportation/customs broker here. Manager. I’ve always had to clock in/out even with being salaried. If you work extra hours or on the weekend (urgent stuff), no comp time. No flex time. You can’t come and go as you please. Hours are set in stone. If I take time for a doctor’s appt or the like, I will either make up the time by only taking 30 min lunch instead of an hour, or coming in/staying late. If it’s a more major thing that needs like a half day off, I’ll take sick time if a doc appt. If you’re late a major amount, it needs to be made up.

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    22. E*

      I currently have core hours where I’m expected to be available to answer phone calls and emails but otherwise manage my own time. PTO is used for when a whole day off is needed. But I am an individual contributor who works from home 4 days a week. People in other departments do not have the same flexibility. I’ve held the same position at 2 other companies and one was very strict with butts in seat 8am-5pm and the other was more flexible but not as much as my current spot.

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    23. Insert Clever Name Here*

      1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done?
      Generally, yes.

      2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons?
      Yes.

      3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time?
      I sometimes have to work emergency situations outside of my normal work hours. I either get comp time, get paid “overtime” (depends on the emergency and is the equivalent of my hourly rate, not 1.5 time), or decide we came out even because I came in later/left earlier that week prior to the emergency.

      4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely?
      I have to submit a timesheet, and we can record time down to 15-minute intervals; my timesheet is usually “Regular Charge Code = 6.75 hours; Specialty Project That Is Outside My Usual Charge Code = 1.25 hours.”

      5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO?
      Generally, no.

      Reply ↓
    24. AnonExempt*

      I work for a company that requires time tracking because we are a contractors/subcontractor for federally funded projects. The expectation is that our time cards are 40+ hours every week.
      There are no issues flexing time within a week (I worked 9 hours tuesday and took a long lunch Thursday, e.g.) but we can’t flex across weeks (e.g., if my time card is 50 hours this week, it still needs to be 40 next week).
      We have no cap on sick time, so things like medical appointments or “I got a migraine and had to stop work early” can count towards the 40 hours.
      There’s some ability to have managers flex stuff/offer comp time for things like staying late one night/coming in late the next day or working through the weekend before a deadline/taking a comp day in the next couple weeks. (We have core hours so “coming in late”/”leaving early” would be something pretty significant like arriving after 11 am/leaving before 3:30)
      We take PTO in 4 hour chucks, so I tend to use PTO if I’m going to be out >2 hours in a week and just flex time for < 2, but that's a personal choice and not a requirement.

      Reply ↓
    25. Alyn*

      It’s highly dependent on your manager where I work. My current role and boss are exceptionally good at understanding life happens, and you may need to come in late due to a doctor’s appointment or whatever w/o requiring you to make up the time, or giving you comp time if you end up needing to work on a weekend due to a business need. We’re not required to track time. We only need to use PTO if we want to take half a day off or more.

      That said, I had a friend in another department who worked for an inflexible manager; the type who wouldn’t care that you were in an hour early on a regular basis (because it was easiest with your commute) and wouldn’t cut you slack to let you leave an hour or two early for an appointment, but instead forced them to take a half day PTO; the type of manager who paid a lot of attention to exactly when you got into the building and when you left (we have a swipe badge system so the timestamps are recorded) and would bring it up if you were 5 minutes late or left 5 minutes early. Those are real examples from events in the past.

      As you can guess, on teams like mine there is very little turnover, and we are much happier to go the extra mile as needed, knowing that when we need some slack, it will be granted; whereas on the team my friend not only suffered from regular turnover, but due to the inflexibility of the manager resulted in people working exactly how long they were required to and no more. Make them take a half day PTO because they want to leave an hour early for an appointment? OK, you’re only getting 4 hours of work instead of 7 (since a half day PTO = 4 hours), etc. Not sure how new hires deal with it (or if they can find out about those attitudes before accepting an offer) but it’s definitely part of the informal conversations that happen prior to any sort of internal job transfer. I’ve turned down offers to move teams in the past due to what I knew of the manager’s inflexibility regarding timekeeping.

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    26. This Old House*

      There’s the official answer and then there’s what anyone’s individual supervisor allows. I have a new supervisor right now, so I’m currently playing by the book while I feel out what flexibility will be allowed.

      1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done?

      Officially? No. Under my last 3 supervisors, yes. Under my current (new-to-me) supervisor?

      Not sure yet, she doesn’t seem to be watching the clock but I think if she’s aware I’m late there’s an expectation I make it up.

      2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons?

      Yes.

      3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time?

      No.

      4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely?

      No.

      5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO?

      Officially, yes. Under my last 3 supervisors, explicitly no. (The first time I requested 2 hours for a doctor’s appointment under my last supervisor, she was like, “Don’t be silly, we’re all adults here.”) Under this (new-to-me) supervisor, I did not get the “don’t bother using PTO for a quick appointment” response the first time I requested 2 hours for an appointment, so I think yes.

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    27. Admin of Sys*

      We’re pretty flexible – any appointments under 2 hr can just be ignored on the timecard (though we’re supposed to update the shared calendar to tell folks we’re afk). There’s a kind of assumed flex time, but it’s not tracked at all, and folks often drop out early or come in late or run longer errands over lunch and the such.
      That said, we’re also all on call about once a month, during which we’re supposed be within about 10 minutes of a computer with the ability to connect ack to work, 24/7, including the weekend. And we get paged in the middle of the night occasionally, so the flex in question is considered in trade for the most recent 2am call and such.

      Reply ↓
    28. EA*

      1. I am currently remote, but yes, I can log in late and not officially make up the time.
      2. No, officially we don’t replace extra time worked with extra time off, but eventually we’ll get flexibility. It’s basically a tradeoff of number one; sometimes you’ll work more in a busy season, sometimes less.
      3. We don’t track flex/comp time.
      4. No
      5. No

      Reply ↓
    29. Manders*

      I manage my own time as I see fit. I work at a public university as a researcher and am salaried. I have also worked for my boss for 25+ years, so he trusts me completely. My job can be variable – there are times when I have to come in every day to check mice, or twice a day to check mice, for 2 weeks straight. So when I have a chance to leave a little early I’ve learned to take it. Should I be tracking everything to the minute? Perhaps. But I put in enough OT that I’ve learned to live with a bit of give- and- take. If I’m ill and unable to work I obviously take my PTO for that, and we have very generous vacation time that I take as well. My boss is the opposite of a micromanager, so he really doesn’t care when I do things, he trusts that I work hard and get everything done.

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    30. Parakeet*

      1) I have to bill time to specific grants or other funding pools. It’s approximate, not law firm levels of precise. So I do need to put in the time at some point during the half-month pay period (doesn’t matter which days during that period). But my job, including what’s covered under the grants, is pretty broad.

      2) Yes. I can come in “late” whenever as long as I’m not missing meetings frequently/too hard to schedule meetings with, as we don’t have set hours. But if I have to work at a truly unusual time (whether that’s late or early, both of which are usually related to time zone differences), my boss actively encourages me to be extra flexible with my time in the next couple of days. Occasionally I even get comp time from it.

      3) No.

      4) Not closely. Like I said above, I have to bill by the quarter hour to specific funding pools. I also have to put a high-level summary of what I did with each funding pool on my timesheet, but the only one I really have to line item is private funding. For a grant, my summary on the half-month timesheet might be something like “Research and capacity-building, webinar prep, writing.”

      5) No, I can flex my time as I please as long as I’m not a pain to schedule meetings with and get my work done. And I do (both flex my time extensively and get my work done lol).

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    31. Seamyst*

      Disclaimer: I work in higher education on the staff side.

      I’m expected to be generally available during the workday (unless I’m on PTO), but if I need to go to an appointment or run a quick errand during the day, that’s fine and I don’t have to get permission or even make up the time. My university’s policy is that for exempt staff, we can only request time off in half- or full-day increments, so if my appointment takes 1.5 hours, I don’t need to put in for that time off.

      Reply ↓
      1. Throwaway Account*

        I am also in higher ed and on the staff side!

        We are now being required to track time very tightly and are also being told our supervisor is being “kind” about this bc comp/flex time is not a thing here. If we are 30 minutes late, we must take PTO or sick leave, but he is “letting” us flex our time.

        Supervisor is a former coworker who got promoted (Peter Principle).

        It is kind of exhausting!

        Reply ↓
        1. Being Exempt is a Scam*

          I think this is becoming A Thing in academia (I’m in higher ed too) and I do not like it. We are not children, we can manage our time. Getting my PTO balance eaten up in hour increments for doctor appointments and health screenings is absolutely bonkers and leaves me kind of just hating my job more than anything.

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    32. Bast*

      1. Can you come in late for x reason and not make up that time as long as the work gets done?
      This depends how late and the reason. We don’t do “make up” hours here though. If it is longer than a couple of hours, they will tell you to just use PTO/WFH depending on the reason. For example, if my car won’t start, I could elect to just WFH rather than attempting to come into the office or if I really wanted to I could use PTO. If I have a dentist appointment or similar, same deal. If it’s because I want to get my hair done or get a massage or something, that wouldn’t fly.

      2. Can you come in late another day if you stay late for work reasons?
      Staying late isn’t really a thing here, unless there’s a huge trial coming up, which frankly, does not happen often these days. Things settle much faster than they used to. Most days the boss locks up the office at 5, and if you’re still here, he will tell you to go home.

      3. Are you required to work extra hours and have to eat them, i.e. NOT take any flex/comp time?
      Perhaps if there were a really big trial coming up, but not typically. My boss is really big on not working crazy hours, and making sure that people take a proper lunch/not do OT.

      4. If you manage your own time, are you required to track it closely?
      I have to log my billable hours to bill clients, but I do not need to keep track of every second of every day.

      5. If you take an hour here and there, do you have to use PTO?
      Not typically. You can’t cut out early every Friday just because it’s Friday, but if you have a medical appointment, plane to catch, etc., it wouldn’t be an issue.

      Reply ↓
    33. Green Goose*

      I’ve been exempt for the last ten years with about five different bosses, and I think the answer to all the questions are manager-specific. My first exempt-role boss was a total micromanager and I was expected to always work 9-5, and then more hours if my work was not done. That job was hard because it was work that needed to be done by two people but my boss just had me do it all, so I worked late often and many weekends.
      I had to tell him about Dr appointments and make up that time. However, this was not the case with my other bosses.
      I usually wait a couple of months before I start asking for flex time or just suss out the situation. It’s always good to check in before you do something to see if it is something that will bother that person.
      I think I only asked for for some unofficial PTO when my team was in our busy season and we were regularly working 60 hour weeks, which included the week-long summer break, so we were able to negotiate a week off at a later time.

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    34. JFC*

      I set my own hours, although most of the time they align with 9-5 business hours because I work with a lot of outside clients who follow that schedule, plus the internal colleagues I work with are normally working those hours as well.

      I work way more than 40 hours a week most of the time, at least an extra hour in the evenings most days and at least part of a weekend day. I’ve had to work both weekend days the last few months because of the volume of work. So, yes, I would say I am eating extra hours without taking comp time. That’s the same reason I don’t use PTO for taking an hour here and there. I only take PTO if I have something that’s going to take me away from work for at least a half-day.

      There are no requirements to track my time. However, it’s pretty obvious through my visible work output how much I’m getting done. There would definitely be internal and external complaints if I wasn’t getting clients and colleagues the materials they need in a timely fashion, and I think if that happened, I’d get more questions about how I use my time. Absent of that, the bosses are fine letting me do my own thing.

      Reply ↓
    35. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I have a lot of flexibility as long as the work is getting done and I am reasonably available. No one is tracking my time or whether I’m in my seat during the day.
      I’m not expected to make up time unless it’s more than an hour or two, and even that is at my discretion. I work across several time zones (routinely both US coasts, different European zones and China) in a day so it’s not unusual for me to dip out in my afternoon for an hour, knowing that I have a couple of hours of calls that night or I started very early to connect with colleagues in Europe. I’m currently an individual contributor but will be managing an employee later this year, so things might change a bit when that starts.

      Reply ↓
    36. Paris Geller*

      I am salaried exempt, but my job is partially coverage-based.

      1. Yes, to a certain extent, but I have to inform my supervisor ahead of time to make sure there is coverage. Also if it’s more than half the day, I have to take PTO
      2. Theoretically, yes, but I don’t have to stay late. I think I stayed an extra half hour once when we were short staff and I came in a half hour later the next day, but that’s happened once in four years.
      3. No
      4. No
      5. No

      Reply ↓
    37. saskia*

      1. Yes
      2. Sure, though I wouldn’t typically ask to do this, as I manage my own time, and I’m sure I’ll make it up with the flexibility previously described without having to make a whole big thing out of it.
      3. Required? No. Do I? Sometimes. I do what I need to do in order to get my work done.
      4. No
      5. No

      Reply ↓
    38. Being Exempt is a Scam*

      Oh this is right in my wheelhouse right now because I’m in a lather about my POW just randomly deciding to take away our exempt time off code and is nickel-and-diming our PTO away if we dare do something irresponsible during the work week like… go to the doctor or get a mammogram. (Yay all the drawbacks of being exempt and none of the benefits! Just suddenly! POOF!)

      Right now my answer to all of this is just a sarcastic laugh. Places may say you’re exempt because you’re a capital-P Professional, but they treat you like an inmate chained to a desk and beholden to the 40 hours AT MINIMUM rule at all times.

      I used to like this job but this schedule-policing, Big Brother Is Watching practice has 100% poisoned me against it. Never accept an exempt position. They’ll just exploit you.

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    39. WFH4VR*

      Our “official” length of time where you need to use sick or vacation time is four hours. Anything under four hours isn’t recorded, and you just make up whatever work you missed. We’re treated like adults who can manage our own time, thank goodness.

      Reply ↓
  12. Violet*

    Any advice on dropping to part-time as a parent and the career impact? I (female) just had a baby and my husband is trying to make partner at a law firm. I would really like to work less than full time for the next few years to keep everything running smoothly at home and spend time with my baby. However, I’m currently a an associate director level, and I haven’t seen any opportunities to stay at this level part time. I would therefore be looking for a senior analyst position, a step down. I would love to hear from other parents who have taken a step down and any advice or insight into how it has impacted your career long term!

    Reply ↓
    1. Zephy*

      NB I am not a parent, but I have read accounts from parents who tried to do this that it doesn’t really work all that well. Instead of reducing your workload and freeing up time to spend with your baby, you end up having to cram all your work into half the time, and all the time you previously had to rest and recharge from work pre-baby is now claimed by baby. Unless your job can actually be done effectively in ~20hrs/week without grinding yourself to a nub, you end up half-assing both work and parenting and those two halves don’t combine into one whole-assed anything, like how 2-in-1 shampoo and conditioner isn’t nearly as effective at either of those things.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        I once worked at a place where one of my coworkers had an 80% schedule (he worked 4 days per week instead of 5) and his spouse (who worked at a different place) also had an 80% schedule, so they only had to pay for 3 days of daycare per week for their child.

        From the outside, it seemed to work fairly well for my coworker. Some important qualifiers though are that (1) this was an organization that was supportive of part-time work arrangements and (2) he had a supportive boss, who was good at expecting him to do 32 hrs worth of work per week, instead of expecting 40 hrs worth of work in a 32 hr week. I’m not at that workplace anymore, so I don’t know if the part-time schedule affected his career growth.

        I think dropping to part time in the early parenting years can be done successfully, but I think that it’s uncommon and really depends on having good support from the organization in general and your direct manager in particular.

        Reply ↓
      2. Violet*

        Thanks-I appreciate this take! I would be looking for a new position that is dedicated to part time; there are a couple of other people I know who has a part time analyst position similar to what I would be looking at, but they made a lateral move, not a step back. I most definitely could not fit my job into 20 hours per week; I can’t even fit it into 40-45 now

        Reply ↓
    2. Harlowe*

      Not a parent, but the new terminology for this is “fractional” roles. Try looking for that, I’ve definitely seen them at director level.

      Reply ↓
    3. spcepickle*

      I am also not a parent, but I do both manage parents and have talked through this with many friends.
      Your FMLA can be used to help you drop to part time for 6 months or so depending on how much time you took for the birth, you get 12 weeks in a 12 month period, and you can use it anytime within the baby’s first year (this assume you are in the US and your company is big enough to be covered by FMLA). My second in command did this for his baby – took the first month off and then before the babies first birthday he did 4 months of half time using a mix of sick, vacation, and FMLA. It was a challenge for both of us to be really protect his time and make sure he was only doing 20 hours a week. It also meant that he had none of the downtime at work, so no socializing or water cooler talks, because he was trying to get so much into 20 hours.
      Have you asked your current firm about going half time or even 3/4 time. We have had lots of success letting people go to 6 hours a day, it is a good balance for many parents making school / day care pick up easier while still keeping them fully engaged at work.

      One of my friends who I graduated college with took several years off because she had 4 kids. The ramp back up has been a challenge, both in finding work and convincing people to hire her instead of a brand new college grad. It helped that she had been intentional about staying in contact with her work contacts and keeping up with the developments in her field. The truth is that with her aeronautical engineer degree she is going to be topping her career off at a mid level contributor, the trade off was worth it for her. But it was totally a trade of time with her kids vs challenge and promotion in her career. Her husband is also a very top level manager – so her at home also let him succeed in his career by taking most of the home tasks off his plate.

      I had a friend go half time teaching while her kids were little, till her husband had an affair and left her with the two kids and no housing (they were living in a house tied to his job). She had to scramble to get back up to full time and figure out her finances, which took a huge hit. I know nobody plans on losing their spouse but I would encourage you to think about if something happens to your household’s main source of income. How would you care for yourself and your kiddo, what kind of safe measure can you put in place now? Also take sometime to think about what you want your career to look like in 5 or 10 years and how a step back now will affect that?

      Reply ↓
      1. HoundMom*

        I went very part-time when I had several children in consecutive years. The advice given to me by a colleague who had done something earlier in her career was to negotiate number of clients or the actual job responsibilities. if you negotiate time or hours there is often an unspoken expectation that there will be overtime. I found that worked well for the decade I was part time.

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        1. Generic Name*

          This. A woman I worked with when I was a consultant worked part time, so that meant she only worked 40 hours.

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    4. Generic Name*

      I was not at an associate director role (it was more a “staff scientist” level), but I went part time for some years when my son was young. I’d check with daycare first to see what they consider “part time” and if they even allow part time. You may find that you end up having to pay for daycare full time in order to keep their slot, even if you don’t use all 5 days. When I worked part time, I found it more stressful than working full time. I crammed all my work into 4 hours and then rushed to pick up my child from school. In the summer, I was in 3 or 4 days at the office, but we were still paying full time daycare because I think part time was 2 days or something. I felt like I was constantly pulled in multiple directions. If I was working, I felt guilty I wasn’t spending time with my child. If I was home with my child, I felt guilty that I was letting the folks at work down. Stuff at home was more stressful because I did a larger share of the housework (you know, because I wasn’t “working full time”). When I went back to work full time, it was less stress because when I was at work, I was at work (and I wasn’t thinking I should leave and hang out with son). I also had the funds to hire a cleaner.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anonymato*

        I have done it and agree on the guilt. Definitely it has felt like burning the candle at both ends trying to prove “still useful “ at work and do a good job as a parent. However, I suspect that probably stands for those parents working full time too. I changed my job responsibilities somewhat to avoid travel and limit people I need to supervise and have more flexibility in terms of when I get my work done (like, around midnight LOL). It meant I was not considered for promotions and was often left out of pertinent discussions. It was hard at times not to go over 20 or 25 hours/week. Having a supervisor who trusts me, understands my situation and is ready to defend me has been super helpful. On the plus side, I got to hang out with my child and my spouse was able to both work and get his degree. I am still part-time 10 years later and generally considered a valued member of the team. Honestly, I am not that ambitious so this works for me (I am grateful to be able to do this) but financially, career-wise and time-wise it has definitely impacted me. Also, we were able to do this because spouse’s job provides family insurance which doesn’t come with my part-time job (and yes, neither do any other benefits), Good luck deciding!

        Reply ↓
        1. Anonymato*

          P.S. To clarify, I didn’t have/couldn’t afford childcare so my work time was around baby’s schedule and my spouse time taking care of the baby. Also, the limited people I’ve supervised have been very flexible and capable.

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    5. EMP*

      New-ish parent working full time, but who thought a lot about stepping back. I have a few examples of it being done really successfully – one friend is an independent contractor (in software), so she sets her hours and bills for what she does, and works 20hrs/week. She’s been doing this for 3-4 years and loves it. I don’t think she’s seen negative impacts. One is a doctor, she has set hours, and does work more than what she bills for because of the nature of the job, but it’s proportionally less than full time (I think she is on the books at ~60% time, and works ~30 hrs a week, but full time she’d be putting in ~60 hrs).
      I have a neighbor (also female) who is 80% time (M-Th), and says she feels like she’s felt some of the “100% of the work for 80% of the pay”. I think this is the biggest pitfall of part time.
      So far though, no one I’ve talked to has really felt that their long term opportunities are impacted in any meaningful way.

      Reply ↓
    6. Strive to Excel*

      My mom did this. A couple factors to consider:

      * Between her and my dad they had enough money to get a nanny on days she was working, which meant she didn’t have to worry as much about either childcare or housekeeping.
      * She works in healthcare and the shifts there are a little weird (I think full time is 14 12-hour shifts per month, rather than a standard 8-5), so she could reduce the number of *days* to 2 days a week.
      * She had a spine of steel regarding not being given the bad rotations. When she was pregnant her director tried to put her on the ‘easy’ rotation. She said heck to the no, I’m staying on my current high-skill rotation until I leave to have this baby.
      * She’s also always been *extremely* self-driven, keeping up with new technology and skills.
      * She still ended up having a career impact, as measured by her college yearmates. A ton of her classmates ended up as very high-powered director or teaching jobs; she says that if she’d put in the time she’d probably have ended up somewhere similar.
      * That said, she doesn’t *like* very high-powered work so the career impact didn’t actually bother her. She prefers working in a less prestigious place, kids or no kids.

      Reply ↓
  13. Tradd*

    Let’s hear the weirdest picky picky thing a customer/vendor has gotten their knickers in a twist over.

    My favorite: customer flipped when I used a forward slash (/) instead of a backwards slash (\) when putting their reference number on customs clearance paperwork (I’m a customs broker). They’re the only customer I’ve ever had who even cared if we exactly reproduced the special characters (slashes, dash, etc.) in their reference numbers. I hadn’t even noticed the difference.

    Reply ↓
    1. Angstrom*

      That almost makes sense if they’re used to dealing with URLs or other machine-read numbers where the special characters DO make a difference.

      Reply ↓
    2. dulcinea47*

      I wouldn’t flip, but I’d be asking you if it mattered, b/c there are a lot of situations where stuff like that *does* matter. (it matters to computers.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Tradd*

        No, it doesn’t make a difference. This is the same customer (overseas), who didn’t like the way the gov’t mandated customs form shows info and wanted to change it!

        Reply ↓
    3. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      I’m in tech, so I would DEFINITELY want reference numbers to match exactly. Especially given how picky government systems can be. The intersection of the two? Damn straight I’d be insisting you pay attention and get things right. If you can’t tell the difference between / and \ , can you tell the difference between zero and the letter O?,

      Reply ↓
      1. Harlowe*

        Agreed. I work with regulatory bodies, and this is exactly the type of carelessness that gets us scrutinized and/or audited.

        Reply ↓
    4. WellRed*

      They didn’t get too in a twist but ages ago we had a marketing person insist we could not crop a headshot of someone per our style (we’re a newspaper). The person whose headshot it actually was? Couldn’t have cared less.

      Reply ↓
    5. Procedure Publisher*

      Job titles being capitalized when not following a person’s name. Job titles should not be capitalized for the most part.

      Reply ↓
    6. Irish Teacher.*

      It was probably reasonable that this customer complained but their reaction was way over the top. It was back when I was in between my degree and post-grad and working retail for a year. I had just started and keyed in the wrong code and thereby overcharged somebody by…like 50c or something, definitely less than a euro. He threatened to call the police and his lawyer if I didn’t refund him (which I had been going to do anyway; I just had to wait for a manager to sign off on it).

      Reply ↓
    7. Tio*

      I don’t know if this is picky, but we imported pistachios once and they had to get inspected by the USDA for aflatoxin testing. This is standard and non-negotiable. They were mad when the govt wouldn’t accept their testing certificates from overseas (like we told them they wouldn’t…) and then threatened to sue us AND the USDA because the USDA took “too many” of their pistachios for testing. Good luck pal, talk to you never. (our lawyer got a good laugh)

      Reply ↓
      1. Tradd*

        Yeah, I have food importers all the time who think they can get around regulations or their product should be released.

        Reply ↓
    8. Productivity Pigeon*

      I spent an entire Saturday aligning checkboxes by hand, pixel by pixel, in a shitty PDF-editor. ONE was a tiny bit off and the client freaked out.
      Fun times.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        I was this person on the other side, except I didn’t freak out. Got a pdf form from our HR and all the checkboxes were wonky. One didn’t work at all. I reached out to our HR person and asked if it would be ok with them if I redid the fillable checkboxes because they were driving me crazy. They gave me the OK, luckily!

        Reply ↓
  14. Esceviche*

    Hi all! I’d love some advice on defining for myself how to “level up” in my career when there is no clear ladder or specific progression in my current role to a more senior level. I imagine for me to advance in my career, move up the ladder and earn more, that I might need to leave my current job and get a better paying job. What that better paying job looks like, and what aspects of it are “next level” for me to aspire to, I am unclear. I work in nonprofit digital communications as a midlevel manager. One way I’ve read folks in my industry define leveling up is through metrics: have what I done for the organization brought in larger numbers and KPIs? Another way I’ve seen is if I brought on more efficiency and order out of chaos and as a result, streamlined processes that saved a lot of time and money for the org? Seeking some feedback and advice on how to think this through.

    Reply ↓
    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      Typically, you need to change jobs to advance. There are some roles that expand in responsibilities that result in a promotion in place but that is not the norm. I would recommend talking to people in roles that you aspire to. So if you are a Manager, find some people who are Directors doing what you do and ask them about their job and how they got to that level.

      Reply ↓
      1. DEEngineer*

        Totally agree with this. Also, let your connections know that you’re looking. I was in a similar position having reached the highest position in my function at my location and unwilling to relocate. I found a position that was a slight step back with better pay at a new org, but they are larger with more opportunities and I’m now in a more advanced position.

        Reply ↓
    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      So, what does your current boss’s role look like? If you were to apply for an analogous position at another org, what would be the difference between your current role and that one? For example, I’m in prospect research in the fundraising operation at a university. I am a director, and as high as you can really go in my specific function. My boss oversees my team and two other teams whose functions are related, but not identical, to my team’s function. To “level up,” I would either have to wait until my current boss leaves and apply for her position (she’s actually trying to train me up for this eventuality) or apply for a position similar to hers at another organization. I would likely have to show that I have an in-depth understanding of the other functions that would fall under that position, and demonstrate a history of working with them.

      Reply ↓
    3. colorguard*

      One thing to think through too, since you mention digital communications: It’s possible the next logical job doesn’t exist yet since things change so rapidly. I’m in a similar industry/role, and the last job/promotion I got where the job existed before I was hired was in 2002.

      So in addition to the things you’re already thinking about, you might also consider:
      – What skills are becoming more necessary, and can you get them/do you want to do that?
      – If there are opportunities to test things out or experiment, can you raise your hand for those?
      – Are there places you want to work, and are they approaching things differently than where you are now?
      That’s a different kind of leveling up than moving up an existing ladder, but sometimes one doesn’t exist (or doesn’t exist yet) and it’s more of a diagonal move, or a lateral onto a different board.

      Beyond that, I find it’s helpful to just keep my eyes open for opportunities, internal and external, and look for stretch opportunities. (If nothing else, sometimes they confirm that you don’t want to go a particular route.)

      Reply ↓
  15. Grrr*

    Ugh. I had an interview that went pretty well. I wouldn’t be thrilled to take the job – it’s extremely lateral, including compensation – but I would be *willing* to take it because my current job is very unstable, and I’m in DC looking for remote work where I feel there could be a local mini-recession coming. However, after the interview I noticed that the salary range has a caveat buried in the bottom (not where the range is posted, of course) that says the range is “the maximum end of the range accounts for longevity in the role.” Meaning, they’re unlikely to offer me anything more than, what, half, or two-thirds of the range. Why post that range if you have no intention of paying anything like that??

    Reply ↓
    1. The Other Evil HR Lady*

      Honestly? To make you apply and get a larger pool of applicants. In DC you have to post the salary (right? Correct me if I’m wrong), and you attract more applicants with the top of the range, even if they’re not as experienced as the people they have in-house. They get more applicants from a range of experience, and they can then decide if they’re willing to hire someone that needs minimal training or more training, depending on who they end up talking to. Does this waste applicants’ time? Maybe, but maybe not. If they find a superstar, they may just go in that direction and offer the top of their range. But if all they get is less experienced applicants, well… they added the disclaimer for a reason.

      Reply ↓
    2. My Brain is Exploding*

      Could that mean if you have years of experience in that role already, just not with that company, that you could get the higher end of the range?

      Reply ↓
    3. Alex*

      I think for “salary range,” a lot of employers post the entire range for the role for everyone, not just the range that they would hire someone at. Unless it says “hiring range,” I usually take it to mean that people in this role have a salary of between x and y, and it is likely that new hires are closer to x. Both places I’ve worked at in the past 15 years do it this way.

      Reply ↓
  16. Anon for this*

    I’m looking for ideas on training that might cover these scenarios. Or just general advice on how to handle things like this.

    I work as a government inspector/compliance assistance person and sometimes we receive complaints from one member of the public about another member of the public (think: nuisance complaints like one neighbor complaining about another neighbor’s noise or smelly trash piles in the backyard).
    I’m pretty comfortable with taking the complaint and listening to the complainant’s concerns. The challenge comes when I have to call the subject of the complaint to tell them that someone complained about them.

    I haven’t found anything in our training library about this – all conflict de-escalation strategies I’ve found are geared towards responding to someone who is dissatisfied or angry. None of our training or resources cover having to call someone and initiate, guide, and conclude a difficult conversation which is a vastly different scenario than just.. letting a complaint vent.

    Reply ↓
    1. JustMyImagination*

      Have you searched for training on having difficult conversations? My company offers that internally but I’m sure there are publicly available options.

      Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      I don’t have any specific training to recommend, unfortunately, but I do have a book recommendation. Difficult Conversations, by Stone, Patton, & Heen is a solid communications book that’s been recommended to me by several folks in the medical field. They use it when dealing with patient conversations, which as you can imagine can be very challenging in a slightly different way.

      Reply ↓
    3. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Crucial Conversations by Patterson, Grenny, McMillan, and Switzler. Will post the link in a reply to my own comment. Easy to read, practical, and has scenarios for almost every kind of difficult interaction including ones you have to initiate.

      Reply ↓
    4. Hazel*

      You’re actually doing enforcement then aren’t you? Every municipality does bylaw enforcement for stuff like this. It’s not about guiding a difficult conversation or person; it’s about how to clearly state the requirement (eg the bylaw requires that all garbage be sorted out of sight) and give them a timeline to comply. It’s not about you or them, it’s about ‘this is the standard, here’s what needs needs to happen to meet it’. I’ve overheard bylaw officers at work. One was just really easygoing, nice guy, ‘hey so it seems you have construction materials on your porch, that’s not ok, can you clean it up by x date, yeah I’d be happy with that, no you can’t have 6 months …’. It’s worked well because he was both confident and nice, you couldn’t really hate him. If you don’t have standards in a written policy you need to get them. And you shouldn’t say who complained (in my town bylaw complaints are confidential). I wouldn’t do any of this kind of work based on reading a book. You need rules.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hannah Lee*

      This may sound silly, but I find I’ve learned a lot about addressing issues and de-escalation from watching (on Animal Planet in the US) a tv show called “North Woods Law” where rangers from New Hampshire and Maine patrol parks and other locations and deal with problem resolutions re hunting, fishing, recreation and outdoor activities.

      They often deal with people having disputes over use of someone’s property or shared outdoor spaces like campgrounds, trails. And they often have to contact someone out of the blue to investigate and resolve issues. For example someone complains that their neighbor is attracting bears to the neighborhood by feeding them, so they have to go visit the supposed bear feeder and tell them to stop doing that. In general they rely a lot on re-iterating regulations and the reasons for the regulations, and having an attitude of “I don’t want to be hassling you about this but it needs to stop, and I’d rather not issue you a fine but I will if you don’t stop. ” And they are good at depersonalizing ie taking the focus off the person who complained and keeping it on the actual rules violation. (Yes Mr Hatfield, I know you and Mr McCoy have some history, but you’re not allowed to feed bears from your front porch)

      They are also very good at using judgement about when to deal with things on their own, one on one vs when it makes sense to have another officer with them or some other local authority, which is good to keep in mind when you’re initiating contact with someone over what might be a contentious issue.

      Reply ↓
  17. LilacliLy*

    So my coworker and I were both approached to apply for a role in a company that’s in our industry, a direct competitor of our current company, but my coworker was originally offered an interview while I was put on the back burner. She asked me for advice and help to prepare for the interviews, and although she was eventually offered the role she turned it down because our company gave her a great counter-offer.

    For reference, she shared with me what they offered her, which was the lowest number on the job advertisement’s posted range.

    A month later, the company reached out to me to interview me and today they’ve offered me the job – but the salary they offered me is significantly below the one they offered my coworker. The pay would still be a bump from what I’m currently on, but my pay is vastly under what I should be at this point in my career anyway, so the number they shared with me was incredibly disappointing to say the least.

    I have more experience in our industry than my coworker too, so I was hopeful I’d be able to comfortably ask for the higher end of the advertised range, so the fact that the offer they’ve sent me is inferior to the one she got really puzzles me. They tried to argue that I have no experience delivering a project for X, even though I’ve had 3 years supporting and learning X, whereas my coworker has zero experience with X, so this explanation makes absolutely no sense to me.

    I’m still keen to take the offer because everything else at the company is better than my current one – benefits, career growth, etc. – but I feel like this is such a slap to the face. I feel incredibly disrespected and offended by their offer. Like the company has seen an opportunity to save a few measly thousands per year because they know that whatever they offer me would be better than what I have now so I’d be crazy not to accept it.

    I don’t know if I have any questions to anyone here, I just wanted to vent. I sent them a counter-offer, asking for a starting pay that was somewhere in the middle of the range they advertised, but they got back to me refusing to even entertain it and doubling down on the original offer. What kills me is that they’re right and I’ll be accepting the job, but I have this huge lump in my throat and fire in my veins. I’m both upset and incensed. I know how much I’m worth and it’s like no one is willing pay me accordingly and I am so tired.

    Reply ↓
    1. Random Academic Cog*

      This is a sign of how they are going to treat you after you start, so even if it’s a bump, I would seriously reconsider. I probably would have aimed a bit lower – you know they were already going to offer a specific number to your colleague, so that was within budget. At this point, however, you might want to step back or go to your current employer and tell them you’ve been headhunted, but would prefer to stay where you are and see if you get any traction. Normally I wouldn’t advise that, but this case might be an exception.

      Reply ↓
      1. LilacLily*

        Yes, they really have shown that they don’t respect or trust me or my experience and they’ve shown me that they will absolutely lowball people whenever and however possible just because they can, just to save some change. What it kills me is knowing that the salary I asked for wasn’t even that much more than what they offered me and it was well within what they budgeted for the riole. I just wanted something within the posted salary range, like they offered my coworker. Just appalling.

        I definitely won’t go back to my employer because I don’t actually prefer staying here, but by god do I wish I had the balls and the means to tell this new job that if they can’t even offer me the minimum I know I’m worth that I won’t accept the offer. But they know I won’t, and they’re right, and it sucks.

        Reply ↓
        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          Are you currently working with HR, recruiting or the hiring manager? If it’s HR/Recruiting, then their job is to disrespect you by giving you as little as possible. That’s just what they do. Taking it personally is a mistake. But it doesn’t mean your hiring manager doesn’t respect you. If it’s your hiring manager, then you should be worried.

          After you’re part of this team, your hiring manager will be working with you and will be recommending future raises. HR/recruiting will have less to do with it. So, you want to make sure that if you’re getting angry, at least understand who you need to be angry with.

          Reply ↓
          1. LilacLily*

            It’s not the hiring manager thankfully, it’s HR and the CEO. And yeah you’re right, I think it’ll be good to get my foot in on the door, show good work and negotiate going forward. Hopefully I can quickly prove myself and work up to the number I had in mind.

            Reply ↓
            1. Parenthesis Guy*

              The CEO is involved? That’s a red flag. It could be that he’ll change his tune after he sees you do good work and will treat people fairly, but could mean he’s looking to screw people. If he’s offering below the range minimum now, I don’t think he’s changing his tune.

              I still think you take it, but I’d keep looking even afterwords.

              Reply ↓
    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      Have you been looking at other opportunities? If no, why not? If yes, have those been working out for you.

      If it’s any consolation, this happens to many of us at one point or another. It sucks and is hard to get past in the moment. Best thing to do is accept the offer and use that fire to propel you to something bigger and better.

      Reply ↓
      1. LilacLily*

        Yes, I’ve been job searching since about April 2023 and I got very few responses overall unfortunately. I landed my current role in January 2024 and the offered pay was really subpar, but it was better than being unemployed, so I’ve continued applying to things here and there. I was really excited about this new role and now I feel like I’ve been punched in the gut.

        I’m worried about being labled a job hopper but in IT that’s not too uncommon, so my partner says I shouldn’t worry too much. IT companies understand that the only way most employees get raises is by being headhunted and switching jobs so they usually don’t particularly mind a job hopper, but I still wish I could stay somewhere long term! So frustrating :(

        Reply ↓
    3. sdog*

      To be honest, I’m not sure that I would accept. I get it that it’s better than where you are at, but it’s jut not a good sign as to how they’ll treat you once you’re there, and it can be so demoralizing to go from one shitty position to another. If you can hang out just a bit longer, I’d use this an opportunity to look like crazy at other opportunities so you can get out.

      Alternatively, can you do what your coworker did and leverage this for a counter offer with your current company (I’d say, I’d still start job hunting like crazy in the meantime).

      Reply ↓
      1. LilacLily*

        My coworker only got a counter-offer because she’s been with them longer, but also it’s because, deep down, she didn’t want to leave, and the new job wouldn’t allow her to continue doing her side-gig that she loves. The only reason she’d take their offer was for the higher pay, which they matched. But they also told her not to tell me that they gave her a counter offer, because they’re not extending the same pay rise to me until June, IF they’re giving me one at all.

        In contrast, this company has better health insurance, more annual leave days, better flexibility, better internal processes and better career progression plans. AND the pay they offered is still higher than what I’m on. I’d be crazy not to take it, despite how bitter I am that it’s below what I know they should have offered me.

        Reply ↓
      2. Apple Studmuffin*

        Perhaps combine the advice above: word your declination so they understand you’d accept an offer at the bottom of their stated range. You know they have that money because they offered it to your colleague. It’s a game of chicken and when they realize their second choice might also slip through their fingers, presumably somebody will twig to being reasonable.

        Reply ↓
    4. Watry*

      Wait, they offered your coworker the lowest number on the posted range, and then offered you less than that? So below the posted range? If that’s the case, I don’t think it would be unreasonable of you to point that out to them.

      Reply ↓
      1. LilacLily*

        I did point it out to them, but they’ve paid it no mind. I even spoke to the recruiter and he was also confused as to why they offered me below the posted range, but he’s external so his influence on the offer is little to none.

        Reply ↓
          1. LilacLily*

            I agree. Even if this is the CEO’s sole decision (which it seems like it might be) a company ran by someone like that is not somewhere I want to stay long term at.

            I’m sad and dissapointed, but. Onwards and upwards. Hopefully the next one is it.

            Reply ↓
          2. DotDotDot*

            And not willing to negotiate *at all*? Forget it. I think since you were their second choice, they think you should get less than they offered to their first choice. Which is twisted thinking, and doesn’t suggest a company that is going to be generous with raises. They are going to act like they are doing you a favour by allowing you to work for them.

            Reply ↓
          3. Funko Pops Day*

            I’m curious if you’re in a state where there’s a legal requirement to post a range? I’m guessing there’s also some kind of rules about making offers outside that range if so…

            Reply ↓
          4. Hannah Lee*

            Good point.

            Also, at this point LilacLily, even if there were a good explanation for why they did it, it’s left a bad impression on you. Accepting a job working for people who already have you questioning their judgement and feeling they are undervaluing you and unwilling to collaborate/negotiate with you on things doesn’t seem like a move that would set you up for success there.

            I’d cut my losses if I were you, decline their offer and focus on your job search.
            Don’t let this experience psyche you out, or get hung up on why they did what they did. Just figure “not a good fit” and move on.

            Reply ↓
        2. Spiritbrand*

          I know you are set on taking this position; however, I think I would thank them for the offer, but tell them you would not be able to take the position for anything less than the bottom of their advertised range.

          Reply ↓
    5. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      I’d be upset too. Offering you less than what was advertised? Bonkers. Especially since they’ve already been rejected.

      You’re looking for a new job for a reason, but trading one stressor for another isn’t going to serve you well. Can you keep looking?

      Reply ↓
    6. Jeneral*

      That’s really frustrating but I would definitely take it (unless you see other red flags). Imagine being at your current company 6 months from now still making the lower salary. Take it and keep working to position yourself to earn more on the role after that.

      Reply ↓
  18. Shades*

    Hypothetically, if you were a civil servant currently in the office, all alone on the top floor with access to 6 large windows that face the director’s office and a roll of painters tape on this Friday before inauguration, what would you write?

    Reply ↓
    2. RK*

      I TOLD YOU

      Best case, it’ll be applicable to whatever happens over the weekend

      Worst case, the idea the director would see this and wonder who, specifically, it was could be a little entertaining

      Reply ↓
      1. Totally Minnie*

        As a civil servant, agreed. Writing a message on the windows is not a move that is likely to improve the agency’s ability to be successful under the new administration, and it might actually result in the agency being targeted for further cuts or for other kinds of poor treatment.

        Also, presumably other people in the agency know who is working in the office today. It would not be difficult for leadership to figure out who wrote the message and start disciplinary proceedings.

        The potential consequences are not worth the temporary catharsis. Put your energy into making a plan for how you and your agency can mitigate any upcoming harms and continue to try to do the best work you can do for the tax payers.

        Reply ↓
    4. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

      FACTS MATTER. Or SCIENCE MATTERS.

      It’s a science agency. Too many political types like to twist reality and pretend they can make the facts say what’s politically advantageous for them. Facts matter, though. Plus, it’s not that controversial of a statement.

      Reply ↓
      2. Ginger Baker*

        SCIENCE! With a heart before or after or both. Non-controversial to anyone who, y’know, likes science, and Officially Not Political.

        Reply ↓
    6. tabloidtainted*

      Nothing. Stay professional. What are you going to write/say that isn’t going to sound wildly hypocritical? “Facts matter”? C’mon. This country is a mess.

      Reply ↓
  19. Aggretsuko*

    So I am totally new to my new industry (trainer) and there’s a lot of complicated stuff I have to learn when trying to figure out people’s job processes. My boss says I am “not getting it,” which is certainly true. However, I’m supposed to be learning by observing (which I haven’t gotten to do that much of, I’m limited on that), asking questions, and reading the (old) documentation. I literally am not permitted to do any hands-on work because they won’t let me have access to the database, and I mostly haven’t been allowed to borrow anyone else’s computer to try keying myself under their name. I tend to learn by doing–and our subject matter experts agree that learning by doing is what you need to do–but upper management won’t permit us access to the database. I’m making myself look bad because I’m being slow/dumb/not getting it, but also I can only learn so much and so well from observing and reading laborious, complicated procedures too. My subject matter experts would be fine with me watching them work, but I have to get permission from upper management and they haven’t granted it yet. Upper management is really overloaded right now and don’t really have the time either.

    My SME’s are great, but overloaded and have limited time to help me. My boss is great, but she’s only been at work about 3 days out of the last month between vacations and illnesses. She got on me a bit for not speaking up that I’m having trouble when she was in (reasonable), but also she hasn’t been around to talk to, so…. I don’t want to look like complete crap, or be more trouble than I’m worth, or be more extra labor on my boss or anyone else because I’m the weak link here. I’m reluctant to be all, “I’m the problem, it’s me!” and keep saying over and over again that I’m struggling and having problems, especially when she hasn’t been available or feeling really sick. Me being a conspicuous problem was an issue at my last job and even though my boss gets that and says it’s fine to speak up, I’m still reluctant to keep speaking up. Maybe I’m too disabled to learn, I don’t know–I’m worried about that too.

    Anyway, if anyone has any suggestions when what would actually help me isn’t really an option, feel free.

    Reply ↓
    1. Tio*

      Can you tell her that you need more hands on time, that you understand she’s been out of the office, and who should you ask for more resources and training or to ask questions when she’s out? (aka who’s her backup)

      If she points you to one or more of the SMEs, you can explain the trouble you’ve had scheduling with them and ask her if she could set up the meetings since people are less likely to try and get out of meetings set up by higher level people. If they still do, or if whoever you’re supposed to be working with isn’t accommodating, you need to let her know and find out how she wants it handled. She’ll either have the power to make them do it or have to find a different solution for you. But overall, I think you need to communicate your stumbling blocks on these things with her more proactively.

      Reply ↓
    2. Zephy*

      When you say you have to get permission from upper management to watch your SMEs work, does that mean someone in upper management has to go in and update software permissions to allow you to do something? Or is it more of a situation where you could physically go watch a coworker fill out a TPS report or whatever with your human eyeballs right now, but ~technically~ Bob needs to sign a form or send an email to “grant” permission?

      “I can’t do the job I was hired for because I don’t have access to the database myself and I don’t have approval from TPTB to observe the people who do” is an extremely reasonable thing to keep bringing up with your boss. It is in fact her job to make sure you can do your job.

      Reply ↓
    3. Goddess47*

      Depending on the software you’re working with, there should be a ‘training’ instance of the database available… both to use for training and for developers to be able to try updates out before putting them into production. You should be a bit more insistent in getting access to the training database so that you have experience in using it.

      But asking for access to the ‘training’ or ‘pre-production’ database/software may be just a matter of using the right words.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  20. Hello*

    I think work has finally broken my spirit and I plan on taking next week off as sick and then speaking to my GP. Have already referred myself to counselling. My job is so horribly dull and repetitive and its a bit of an achievement is giving myself permission to step away from it.
    Thanks for letting my vent! Boring jobs ca be worse than being overstretched!

    Reply ↓
    3. Insert Clever Name Here*

      I’ve been bored at work and run ragged, and I honestly hated being bored more. Sending you good vibes!

      Reply ↓
    4. Throwaway Account*

      I’m with you on the stress of a boring job! I much prefer to be busy and multi-task. My brain hurts to be bored for 8 hours trapped at work.

      I’ve used my current work-related boredom to focus on things in my personal life. My “achievement” is in putting more of my energy into doing things I like. And that is how I realized that I don’t have a lot of hobbies or things I like to do! So I’m working on that.

      Result is, I’m less bothered by the boredom at work.

      Reply ↓
  21. Possibly Overstepping*

    We ha da new person start this week and I have been spending a decent amount of effort trying to coordinate with people to make sure he has what he needs to get up and running, usually going to find whoever it is can answer a question and get it answered. However, I’m not a manager or anyone with a lead title, I’m just a fellow developer. I started doing this because no one else was doing it, and I really hate when stuff falls through the cracks, but I’m also wondering if I’m overstepping. No one’s said anything negative about what I’m doing, and it apepars to have moved the process along faster.

    What signs should I look for to indicate that what I’m doing is too much and that I should back off and let someone else handle it? Obviously, if someone were to directly tell me this, I’d back off, but my company has a lot of people that are extremely conflict adverse.

    Reply ↓
    1. Pocket Mouse*

      Not quite what you asked for, but you’re doing important stuff right now – document it! Better yet, have the new staff member take the lead in documenting it, with your support. The goal is to create a file listing all the things you assisted with/that the new person needed and was shown to be a gap in the existing system, so that the next person to start won’t face unnecessary delays (and you don’t have to be so involved).

      Reply ↓
      1. Possibly Overstepping*

        Appropriately enough, I was already working on updating the documentation when we got a new hire, so I’ve been asking them what is and isn’t well documented so it can be improved!

        Reply ↓
        1. Pocket Mouse*

          Seems to me you’re in an excellent position to continue as you have, then! It’s currently your responsibility to make sure new hires have what they need to get up and running – in the future, that’ll be just via documentation, but right now you’re doing a kindness by getting info you need to get anyway, and sharing it as it becomes available rather than making the new person wait for a finalized document.

          Reply ↓
    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I’d talk to your manager and say, “I noticed Mark seemed to need some help figuring out how to get the stuff he needs and who to go to in order to answer questions. It didn’t seem like anyone had been specifically assigned to do that for him, so I’ve been helping him out. I just want to make sure I’m not overstepping on this. Should I keep it up, or back off?” Worst case scenario, your boss says “Jane is supposed to be doing that. You should back off and let her handle it.” Best case, your boss says, “wow, thanks for taking the initiative! We really need to work on our onboarding process,” and then both 1) works on the onboarding process, and 2) takes your initiative and your collegial spirit into account at review time and rewards you for it.

      Reply ↓
  22. Sloanicota*

    So I am job searching and I’m getting really paranoid that I’ve been at the “same level” too long. I’ve been a manager for more or less a decade. Does that seem weird to you? Manager is a broad term. In most jobs, I start off more junior, more and more senior level work gets dumped on me, I ask about promotion and am told it’s not a thing, so I start looking for a new job after 3-4 years. I can’t get a Director level role because they want experience, so I end up chasing the money and taking a higher-compensated Manager role again. How am I supposed to get up? Are hiring managers holding it against me that I haven’t “found a way” and end up not even wanting me as a manager anymore?

    Reply ↓
    1. Busy Middle Manager*

      Probably depends on company, but when I hired for general business ops roles, we didn’t care about titles at all, so “no” would be the answer to your question if we cared or not about your “finding your way.” We experienced one too many people with a VP or Director titles who couldn’t answer basic questions about the industry, or conversely, only knew the basics but wasn’t really an expert in any given area or tasks. We’d focus on the line items of the resume and cover letter to decide who to interview

      Reply ↓
    2. DEEngineer*

      Not weird! Companies have different titles for different things. Also, I think of Directors as a more strategy-focused role and Managers as more operationally-focused. You might be able to ask your org for development opportunities or classes to get more experience in that space.

      Reply ↓
  23. SB*

    Anyone have any experience navigating unconscious gender bias? (I mean, some of it may be deliberate, but I’m being generous)

    I’ve noticed a pattern that keeps causing problems for me. I work in a highly regulated industry, and I have a very specialized skill set. When I know something that men don’t, some of them get super defensive and angry with me. They act like I’m challenging them or being a jerk on purpose.

    I’m not. I am trying to find the least painful path forward for the team. I can’t make myself smaller and still do my job effectively. And if I point out, “hey, you’re being a little sexist right now. Are you aware?” …well, I may as well throw some mentos in Diet Coke and not expect an explosive mess.

    Any ideas? I’m in the US/midwest if you need cultural context.

    Reply ↓
    1. SB*

      Basically, I am so tired of being seen as “difficult” when I’m trying to help the team and fix something that someone else broke.

      Reply ↓
    2. MissMaple*

      I have found the “stop talking and stare at them without smiling” til they take a second and back down to be very effective, personally.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So to clarify – do they:
      believe that you don’t actually know a thing?
      believe that what you claim to know isn’t correct?
      something else?

      (I’m Midwest male FWIW)

      If their objection is to the truth of what you’re saying (with implicit bias), that’s marginally better than objecting to the general idea of a woman as their peer. The way to address the first one, at least for reasonable people, is to subtly or overtly reference your credentials. “We spent a lot of time when training for this certification to make sure we knew the difference between X and Y.” “Come on, Frank, I’ve been working with Z for 5 years. I know when these things need to be recalibrated.”

      I’ve had to use this as a defense against ageism and credentialism.

      Reply ↓
    4. HR Exec Popping In*

      For me, I work hard at staying calm and factual. I have no control over how someone else reacts and I realized a long time ago someone else’s reaction is more about them than me. So if challenged or questioned I simply calmly respond with the facts. I don’t defer or get defensive.

      Reply ↓
    5. Data Slicentist*

      I wish I had ideas. I was lucky enough to be able to switch to another team within the org that had more women on it and had a track record of promoting women.

      Reply ↓
    6. HannahS*

      Sigh. Yes.

      I’ve never tried calling it out. I imagine it would just lead to more defensiveness from them.

      I am, physically, a short and non-threatening woman. I find that using a lot of subtle manipulation a la My Big Fat Greek Wedding (“the man is the head but the woman is the neck that turns the head,”) paired with cheerful confidence and actually NOT making myself smaller seems to work well. I would say that I in general dress and groom in a relatively gender-neutral way (e.g. I am currently wearing black scrubs; I have long hair but it’s pulled back.) Sexist men are sometimes more likely to acknowledge my personhood if they can downplay that I’m a woman.

      It’s hard to give exact suggestions without knowing the kinds of conversations you’re having. But I often try to start by agreeing with the person I’m speaking to and then slipping in my ideas until they think that it was their idea from the start. It’s kind of hard to explain. But that’s how I get by.

      Reply ↓
    7. A Significant Tree*

      I (F) had this issue with the de facto lead (M) of a project. I was the only woman on the team and the SME for a specific topic area. Lead didn’t like my position on something because it ‘didn’t feel right’ and he didn’t agree with it. At first I just tried more data, more references, more facts. After a few go-arounds, I started asking him what data, references, and facts he used to come to his conclusion, all framed as sincere curiosity “so I can understand better.” You can guess what he had to offer, and I did understand better: facts weren’t going to matter to this guy if a) presented by me and b) they differed from his opinion. Fortunately, his personal opinion didn’t carry enough weight to veto my facts-based position but it was closer than it should have been.

      My favorite encounter was a different guy who was trying to position himself as the expert in my specific topic. He made a claim about something during a public presentation, I asked for his references so I could better understand where that claim came from, and he directed me to … a marketing brochure, for a product that didn’t actually exist yet.

      Reply ↓
    8. Bird Law*

      Midwestern young female lawyer here – When I encounter this, I usually make an appeal to external authority and I cite my sources. Your education and role should be enough to make your input “credible.”

      You shouldn’t try to make yourself smaller because it seems like you might not be meeting your job duties if you take that approach. If your job on the team is to use your specialized skill set to do the job right, you’re not doing the job if you hide that knowledge simply because not everyone else has it and that makes them feel small. Plus, shrinking from the conflict will probably reinforce their lack of respect.

      It’s weird to have to be an authority after a lifetime of conditioning that women should be smaller. You can’t afford that if your job is to know things that other people do not-your job is to provide a little friction in the process. It might be worth examining why you are trying to spare them pain.

      You haven’t mentioned this, but I’m guessing that if you’re trying to take their feelings into account, you’ve kept this attitude problem to yourself…. Don’t.

      Your supervisor needs to know so that when one of them storms in to his office complaining that you’re a bitch, he’s inclined to think otherwise. Very matter of fact: “I’m getting a lot of pushback from Brody and the team when I remind them of a requirement or I diverge from them on matters related to [my specialized skillset]. I think we’re making progress, but I wanted to keep you in the loop in case it escalates and I need you to back me up.”

      Good luck with the good ol’ boys.

      Reply ↓
      1. Throwaway Account*

        I have always thought that “making yourself smaller” includes making an appeal to an outside authority. As in, it is not ME saying this, it is this paper/conclusion by this other author. It removes your own authority, no?

        Reply ↓
    9. Oh*

      I hope you do not actually suggest they are being “sexist”.
      In my experience you can have a lot of discussions on how your authority is not taken seriously, but this word will shut down any form of goodwill. It makes men extremely defensive.
      It is difficult to make suggestions, but I use a lot of “confused attitude”, why some of their suggestions would make more sense than my suggestion? That way you have to talk about real arguments.

      Reply ↓
    10. Turingtested*

      I’m in manufacturing. I wait patiently until someone says mil when they mean millimeter and then I call them out.

      I’m sure there’s something in your business that means “I know my stuff.” Find it and use it.

      Reply ↓
    11. spcepickle*

      Also a sigh yes. I am a women working in civil engineer / construction. The number of times that people are shocked I am the boss and not the secretary is . . . disappointing.

      With people in my agency I name it when I think I have the capital and can do it effectively. Hey it seems like whenever I bring up an issue with the specs I notice you get kind of frustrated, whats up with that? I also love the question – “What did you mean by that?”, if I get under the breath comments or snide push back.
      I also think we need to be okay being labeled difficult by the jerks as long as your also building collaboration with the non-jerks. Are there people in your industry who you like who are a similar level – can you be intentional about building co-working relationships with. The further I get into my career the more I notice just how much word of mouth really matters. Having people who will say good things about you when you are not around is critical.

      Lastly I create a ladies who lead lunch group. And a few times a year I invite all the female managers in my wider agency who are in my area to lunch. We eat Mexican food and gossip – it can be really useful to hear that others are having the same issue with particular people and what they are doing about it. We have even coordinated push back in the same way and gotten good results.

      Sorry that you are dealing with this, you are not alone.

      Reply ↓
    12. Policy Wonk*

      I’m a government manager, overseeing a large organization. I am respected in my field and am often asked to speak on my area of competence. And I get men a couple of rungs below me on the org chart pulling this. It never seems to go away. My response generally depends on who is questioning my expertise and how. Sometimes – someone very senior, or with special expertise – I ask them questions. Please explain your position. (They could have a point. Usually don’t, but not always.) If they answer with “I think” I ask for facts, data, etc. Sometimes I just tell them I am the expert (or I am the boss) and we are doing what I just said (almost always follow this up with instructions in writing so they can’t do something else claiming that’s what I said). Sometimes I let them rant until they run out of steam, looking at them like they are a museum exhibit or cranky toddler. Then I ask “Are you done?” and move on to the next item.

      And I get together with other women at my level to exchange notes, talk about how to handle things. I live in DC, so this isn’t limited to the Midwest (though I am a proud Midwesterner, having grown up there!)

      Reply ↓
  24. Another freelancer*

    I am about a year into my role and I would like some advice on looking for a new job. Despite the red flags I noticed in the interviews and the bad vibes I had, I accepted the role because I was unemployed. Now I want to leave this job at about the 18-month mark and hope I can hang on that long.

    When should I start looking for new roles? What can I do in the meantime just to get through each day?

    Reply ↓
    1. SB*

      It might help to make a list of what you don’t like about the job. And then think about the solution you would need to stay in the role. Is it flexibility? Is it pay? Is it the nature of the job itself? Once you know what you need, it’s easier to spot in the interview process.

      To get through the next 6 months, is there a skillset you want to develop to make you a stronger candidate for your next role? Lean into those opportunities if you can. Sometimes it can help to reframe from “this company is using me” to “how can I use this job for my benefit”

      Reply ↓
    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Start now. The looking may actually help you get through the day. I started my current job after a layoff and I was absolutely miserable for the first 8 months or so. I reached out to everyone I knew, I applied, I responded to every recruiter, I had interviews. Nothing felt right, but it gave me a sense of control. My job eventually got better, but I also resigned myself to staying here for various practical reasons.

      Also, if something good comes along before your 18-month mark, you can leave.

      Reply ↓
    3. Employed Minion*

      I appreciate your question. I also took a job with red flags because I was unemployed and am reaching the one year mark soon.

      My advice:
      1) Take a breather, it can be great to just go to work for a few weeks but then start looking.
      2) find things that help you get through the day:
      – I started listening to podcasts constantly at work and it has saved my sanity.
      -Walking, moving my body, during lunch has helped a lot too.
      – have something to look forward to at the end of the day or week, a hobby, time with loved ones, or a favorite meal.

      Others here have great advice too!

      Reply ↓
  25. hotg0ss*

    I’m currently working on two projects at work that are costly, time-consuming, and (possibly) useless. It’s really apparent that most of the leadership team thinks these projects are expensive boondoggles that we’re only engaged in because the Big Boss believes in them. One of the projects is related to sustainable energy, and we believe it will soon be irrelevant (at least, for the next four years). The other is a reaffirmation of an industry credential that, turns out, was done incorrectly the first time and needs to be started completely from scratch. I can’t help but feel like every day I am wasting resources for no reason. It’s too much for one person, so to do it properly I need some help, but I hate asking for help on a thing no one thinks we should even be doing. My title would imply that I’m empowered to make these decisions, but I’m not. I feel like I’m out to sea.
    I’ve tried to talk to my boss about it but the entire reason he hired me is that this a language he doesn’t speak (think everyone is llama groomers and I’m a specialist in llama grooming regulatory policy). What do you guys think? How can I make this sustainable for myself?

    Reply ↓
    1. Required*

      I have two recommendations that have helped me in projects like this (although, from the sound of it, mine were less annoying):

      1. Just disassociate your self-worth from this project. You were tasked to do it, and you’re gonna have to do it. So, when you ask for help, it may make it easier on you to say something like, “The company/boss/client wants this task completed, and I need help in…” That way, you don’t have to feel like you’re wasting resources, just that resources are being wasted by those decision makers above you.

      2. Find ways to learn new skills during the task. Is there a process that can be completed with automation and can you learn how to automate it? Is there an opportunity to expand your network? Is this an opportunity to hone your writing and communication skills? Can you setup and document a guide for the future?

      Reply ↓
    2. Kay*

      Agree with Required.

      Reminding yourself that it is not your responsibility to operate the business in an efficient manner nor ensure resources are reasonably allocated. Your responsibility is to follow the directives you receive from your boss in exchange for the money they agreed to pay you. You didn’t choose this path, but since it is your responsibility you can do it to the best of your ability.

      Reply ↓
  26. RoadLessTraveler*

    I’ve started my job search but since that may be a career pivot (nonprofit admin to for profit admin) it may take a while to find the right fit.

    My current workplace has an equity model where everyone at the same level is making similar amounts in salary. So if one gets a raise, it’s considered for everyone at that level. I’ve been here three years and they’ve said the performance appraisal was not the time to discuss salary. Finally, I discussed it anyway. Appraisals are in October. I notice that raises are giving right before October. If I stay here, it seems that I wouldn’t get a significant increase until October.

    That’s a long time. I’m looking for other positions that are hybrid and also where I can make more but there aren’t as many openings as I hoped. I also love the work/life balance here. I feel people are just getting to know me, but I also feel like I am languishing skills-wise.

    Do you think I have hope of getting any increase before October? Is it worth giving up work/life balance for more money? Money is a tricky thing because more responsibilities are sometimes more stressful and I don’t really want to trade my calm nervous system for money. This balance is *very* hard for me to suss out in the job-seeking process. I find I don’t really know until I’m hired and there.

    Thanks for any answers.

    Reply ↓
  27. Alexandra Beth*

    Yesterday I apologised for something that wasn’t my fault. But I don’t know how I could have responded differently; I would love to hear your suggestions.

    The situation: I have been asked to contribute my expertise to a project at work. The alternative was to buy in external support but I said I could give the project some of my time. Not a problem. I was invited to a meeting (scheduled for an hour), Before the meeting, I sent an e-mail listing the particular things we should talk about and I repeated those at the beginning of the meeting. Nods and murmurs of agreement from everyone.

    40 minutes later, after I had asked some challenging questions (a necessary part of my job), the person who set up the meeting (“Ben”) said that the purpose of the meeting was to decide whether to get external support or if I had the capacity to help them. I’d already agreed to help and if he’d forgotten, that conversation definitely doesn’t need to be an hour-long meeting with four people! I can only imagine he was frustrated or irritated by my questions.

    In the moment, I apologised for misunderstanding the purpose of the meeting. But I didn’t misunderstand! Ben is senior to me and I work with him a lot. So I need to be polite. But I really wish I’d had the right words to respond without apologising. What would you have said?

    Reply ↓
    1. Honoria Lucasta*

      Maybe just “Ohhh” instead of “I’m sorry” and then the rest of what you said could have been the same? In these situations, I think “I’m sorry” sometimes functions as a kind of symbolic expression that fills the space where a computer would say “re-cal-i-bra-ting.”

      And at one level, it reads like there was *some* kind of miscommunication at least. You took the meeting invitation to mean one thing and entered the meeting prepped accordingly, and obviously Ben intended something different.

      Reply ↓
      1. Cordelia*

        yes I’m a little confused – it sounds like you did misunderstand the purpose of the meeting. You thought it was already agreed that you were working on the project, whereas the meeting was actually to decide whether this was the way forward. No need for effusive apologies, but saying “oh sorry, I misunderstood the purpose of the meeting” seems appropriate.

        Reply ↓
        1. Alexandra Beth*

          Yes, I suppose it could have been my misunderstanding.

          The reasons I think it wasn’t is that – my involvement had already been agreed by e-mail – making that decision wouldn’t have needed an hour long meeting with four people – when I outlined my understanding of the meeting by e-mail and at the beginning, nobody disagreed – nobody told me otherwise for 40 minutes (and Ben is not shy about disagreeing normally!)

          However, good to know that my response might have been entirely appropriate after all. As always, most of my problems are only in my head!

          Reply ↓
          1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

            Dollars to donuts, Ben didn’t read your detailed email. If he had, he would have either said “Oh, I guess you do understand this, ;ets move on to implementation” or “Hold on, we’re not there yet – first we need to decide if it makes sense to use you or an external resources”

            Reply ↓
    2. WorkerDrone*

      I probably would have said something like, “I’m so sorry, there was a misunderstanding somewhere. Based on my conversation with Professor X, I was under the impression that this was already settled and I was working on the project. Should we take a step back and talk about whether I would be the right fit?”

      Reply ↓
    3. DataWonk*

      “Ah, seems like we miscommunicated then. I was driving the conversation based on the points I sent out previously and didn’t know we were still on the internal/external decision.”

      I have been in similar conversations re: deciding on internal vs external contributors and this sounds frustrating given he waited 40 minutes (!), but an honest mistake (unless you know Ben to pull this kind of stuff often). “Giving the project some of your time” often means discussing feasibility at the first meeting. When I am in those kinds of meetings, I say things like “Teapot makers need to gauge whether X or Y”, which doesn’t imply if the teapot maker is you or not.

      Reply ↓
    4. DEEngineer*

      I think you did the right thing. It’s unclear to me if Ben wanted you to help from the start or if someone else told him that you’re the resource and he has to accept it. Especially on technical projects I’ve found that the people on the project who need help tend to be territorial and defensive. I’ve been in that position myself!

      Reply ↓
    5. saskia*

      If Ben didn’t set an agenda for the meeting, that’s his fault. Why didn’t he say anything for the first 40 minutes? I think your actions were fine here.

      Reply ↓
    6. Tammy 2*

      It’s not the most professional word, but “whoops” serves me well in situations like this.

      “Whoops, my understanding was that we’d already established that I was going to help and we were meeting today to discuss further details.”

      It smooths things out a little bit without being an apology no one is owed.

      Reply ↓
  28. handfulofbees*

    Been chewing on this for a while: what right does a person have to a job? Think the shittiest coworker you’ve ever had, and everybody’s so relieved when they go. Someone who cannot keep a job because their performance or attitude are abysmal. They still have to make a living somehow, and no matter how bad they are, they still have to eat.

    How would a just society work through this? Vs how it is now?

    Reply ↓
    1. PokemonGoToThePolls*

      A just society would ensure that every person would have safe and comfortable housing, adequate, healthy food, clothing, healthcare, and the other basic necessities of life without any requirement of work whatsoever.

      Reply ↓
      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        This. I’m pro-basic income for a lot of reasons, but I’d love it for people who are awful at their jobs! Their “job” can be not working with me and not driving me crazy. This is a win win.

        Reply ↓
        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          This! And for a lot of those people, the “right” job just isn’t feasible due to economic considerations.

          Reply ↓
          1. Caramel & Cheddar*

            That’s a huge part of it too. I think about how many people would be much happier as colleagues if they were afforded the opportunity to do something that paid much less but that they were much better suited for. Let’s make that happen for them!

            Reply ↓
      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        Obviously, you don’t have a son-in-law living in your house, paying no rent, sleeping every day away, buying expensive toys with his Social Security income, while you feed and watch and love his kids. When he does get up, he yells profanities at his kids because they’re not self-sufficient enough and he had to get up. His wife works, and they could be saving over $2k a month for buying a house, but in the last year, they’ve managed to save about $5k total.

        No, I don’t know the answer. But there are people who try and people who take advantage, and there isn’t always a clear way to identify them, nor a clear way to deal with those who only want to take advantage.

        Reply ↓
        1. Pocket Mouse*

          That’s a relationship problem, not a social safety net problem.

          But re: your last sentence, better to have some people take advantage than to have people who need the safety net not have one.

          Reply ↓
            1. Pocket Mouse*

              Can you say more? I think the scale makes a very big difference, to the extent we can indeed separate them. The government shouldn’t be monitoring how people spend their SS benefits, but members of a family who are closely and financially interdependent do need to be in some level of agreement about their shared budget. I’m a proponent of housing for all/housing first, but an individual does largely get to decide who they allow to live with them under their roof, and similarly, can press for arrangements around how housing costs will be paid for among members of the household. I’d love for everyone to put effort into making the world a better, more equitable place, but that can’t be required on a large scale. On a household level, the individuals can have boundaries about how much labor they will do that is technically another person’s responsibility, and around the behavior they will and will not accept toward themselves or toward children in their care, and whether and how long to stay in a marriage that isn’t healthy (not saying that’s necessarily the case for the family ThursdaysGeek is talking about, but yelling at one’s kids for needing assistance and problematic spending habits that prevent or delay the ability to live independently don’t sound like a particularly healthy situation overall to me). A just society with ample safety nets would still have people in situations like the one ThursdaysGeek describes; thus addressing that situation falls at the individual relationship level.

              Reply ↓
            2. different seudonym*

              Seriously, no. This is wrong. Relationships are both radically contingent and culturally bound, and therefore often irrational and unfair. The social safety net is (supposed to be) a form of justice.

              Reply ↓
              1. DataWonk*

                Social safety nets depend on culturally bound definitions of what “adequate food, shelter, healthcare” are. These definitions are based in smaller community relationships and aggregate their way up to whatever system would be responsible for maintaining the “social safety net” to begin with.

                Reply ↓
        2. Caramel & Cheddar*

          There will be people who take advantage in any scenario. We provide for them anyway, because the benefit of providing for everyone else who isn’t taking advantage far and away outweighs the problem of providing for those who are deemed to be “cheating” the system.

          Reply ↓
        3. Productivity Pigeon*

          The thing is, even entitled bullies should have a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs.
          Preferably not by tormenting family and friends though.

          Reply ↓
        4. ThursdaysGeek*

          Obviously, I do agree with the responses to a degree, since he’s still in our house, still has a roof over his head. And yet, it also isn’t helping him by letting him be a child when he could and should be an adult. Adults should contribute in some way – it isn’t healthy to only take.

          Reply ↓
        5. Irish Teacher.*

          I don’t think PokemonGoToThePolls’ solution would make that any worse though. It might even make it slightly better – for you and maybe his wife, if not for his kids – because he would hopefully be able to afford his own place and his wife wouldn’t be under so much pressure to earn for both of them.

          I don’t think we need to identify or deal with those who “only want to take advantage.” I have no doubt there are some people in Ireland who make no effort to get a job and just stay on the dole for life. I doubt it’s many because €244…isn’t exactly fun to try and live on, but there are probably some who figure “I’d rather manage on that than bother working,” especially if they have a partner or parents they can live with, but…quite frankly, I don’t care. They’ve left more jobs available for those who can actually be bothered doing them and if we accidentally help a handful of people who don’t need it while supporting those who do (most of whom, in the latter case, have been paying for the supports with their taxes for years before they lost their jobs or if they are younger and haven’t gotten a first job yet, will pay once they do), that seems reasonable to me.

          And honestly, even with people like your son-in-law, I’d rather they got benefits because at least then there is something they can use to provide for their children, who aren’t to blame for their parent’s laziness and it might also take some pressure off your daughter.

          Reply ↓
        6. Double A*

          But what if he had enough to take care of his basic needs (nothing fancy, just the basics) and not mooch off you? All of society would share the load of freeloaders, which is annoying. But more fair because they exist and take advantage of somebody.

          Reply ↓
        1. ThatGirl*

          It is demonstrably cheaper to give people money and to house homeless people than it is to let them be poor or homeless. UBI tests have universally succeeded and yet we keep not implementing it at any scale.

          Reply ↓
        2. HannahS*

          With tax dollars. Finland did it. Medicine Hat did it. It’s possible; it requires political will and organization. I know more about Housing-First programs than universal basic income, because we have some housing-first programs in my Canadian city. They save taxpayer money because hospitalizing people and incarcerating people is so much more expensive than housing them.

          Earlier this year, I had a man hospitalized on my unit for 14 days longer than he really needed to be, because we had nowhere to send him. He could not live independently but would have died if we discharged him to the street and the shelters were full; he will never be able to work, and he has no family. The cost to the taxpayer of those fourteen days would pay for fourteen MONTHS of my rent–in a condo with two bedrooms and a sunroom in a desirable neighbourhood.

          Reply ↓
      5. Stuart Foote*

        That’s completely insane–so people have no obligation to participate in their own survival or contribute to society? Why would anyone accept any kind of undesirable job if they didn’t need a job to survive? Sometimes this site is a little out of touch…

        Reply ↓
          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            “safe and comfortable housing, adequate, healthy food, clothing, healthcare, and the other basic necessities of life” — if you’ve got all that, why work? That is certainly more than just surviving.

            And as to my son-in-law above: it’s hard for me to work so hard so he can play so hard. It’s going to come to an end, but that’s the relationship part: it’s not helping him by us helping him.

            Reply ↓
            1. Head Sheep Counter*

              Yeah the way that should be enabled to find a place to live/work and get by suddenly becomes… more than the average person gets for free… is part of how these conversations get dodgy.

              Good luck on re-establishing more appropriate boundaries/expectations with your family!

              Reply ↓
        2. Bitte Meddler*

          Well, the facts say that you’re wrong.

          In places with Universal Basic Income, the employment rate stays the same. The number of unhoused people decreases and they types of jobs people take change (because they can, for instance, become a musician instead of stocking shelves at Costco).

          Just look at Alaska. The state isn’t full of a bunch of bums because The Alaska Permanent Fund hands residents $1600/year.

          People would still take undesirable jobs because those match their skillsets, or the amount of effort they want to put into climbing any ladders. The jobs would still get done, but the children of the people in those jobs wouldn’t face a day of starvation or living in a car.

          Reply ↓
    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      The person should find a person that they have skills at or work in a role that doesn’t require them to interact with others if it is behavioral.

      Reply ↓
    3. Productivity Pigeon*

      I’m a firm believer that there is a place for everyone somewhere.

      The trouble is finding that place. It’s extra difficult if you have someone who doesn’t want to look for it themselves.

      It’s one thing for someone who might not be capable to find Their Place because of disabilities, that’s a different scenario. And there are sometimes organizations and resources dedicated to that.

      But the capable but unwilling? I’m not sure what the best way would be. I’m really interested in what other commenters will say about this.

      The simply solution is universal basic income but surely there must be some ways outside of that?

      Reply ↓
    4. Irish Teacher.*

      I think the best option I can see is a decent social welfare system. My opinion is that social welfare/the dole/jobseekers’ allowance should pay enough to cover food, shelter, healthcare, bills, etc so a person who was truly unable to succeed at any job (and I do think they are rare) might not have a great standard of living but they wouldn’t go hungry or be at risk of homelessness. They’d just have to watch the pennies and wouldn’t be able to afford luxuries or to go on holiday or eat out much or anything.

      They should also have access to free job readiness training to support them to build the skills they need to get a job.

      Are there people who would take advantage? Possibly. Heck, there are probably some people who don’t try too hard to get a job under our current system in Ireland where the benefits are like €244 a week for a single person, but I reckon there aren’t that many people who’d be happy to just barely get enough each week to live on if all jobs paid enough for at least the odd luxury (I am not suggesting all jobs should pay enough to allow people to winter in the Bahamas but they should pay enough to allow people to have a meal out a couple of times a month or buy slightly nicer clothes than are absolutely necessary or whatever). And anyway, I’m not sure I care. I’d rather see the odd person get €300 a week or whatever when they could get a job if they tried harder than see people end up homeless or hungry because they lose their job.

      Reply ↓
    5. Head Sheep Counter*

      I don’t think one has a right to anything beyond what has been set as rights, laws and common understanding of behavior within one’s group. One certainly does not have rights to a privately provided service/property or job.

      Society may find it in its best interest to provide for everyone… but one is not owed this.

      I’d prefer to live in a society that takes care of its own but that also encourages a community mind and a willingness to get creative. If society provides X then its on the individuals in that society to make it possible to provide X by meaningfully participating.

      I also don’t think we are owed the ability to live and thrive wherever we so choose to go. I think, in fact, we should be a lot more thoughtful about where we locate and get real about the changing environment and the costs associated. There is a separate conversation when the area you live in changes out from under you.

      Reply ↓
    6. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I think money clouds the issue; money chases and represents goods and potential services, and ultimately those goods and services are actual quality of life.

      The results are going to be underwhelming. You said that “they still have to eat” and that’s true: so whatever standard of living you’re going to offer, it’s going to be inferior to farming, because if farmers find the safety-net option more attractive, no one will have vegetables to eat. If construction workers find the safety-net option more attractive, homes will cease to be built and repaired. So on and so forth. Someone, somewhere, has to be working and creating because their alternative is not having anything.

      I think it ends up looking a lot like what exists today. Begging, shelters, trading dignity for handouts. It’s not pretty, but the reason we have the abundance to donate to those less fortunate is because the alternative is everyone having nothing.

      Reply ↓
      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        And there is another level too: we are happier and healthier when we are productive. The people who know this will always find a way to be productive, but it takes time to learn this, and some people don’t learn it.

        My SIL (above) is not the first person we’ve had living in our house, and when we’ve offered housing, we’ve invariably determined that the person in need of housing had much deeper problems, and the lack of stable housing was only a symptom. Treating the symptom doesn’t actually help the person, not in the long run. The whole idea that sometimes people need to hit rock bottom before they learn to help themselves, the idea of tough love: that is not invalid.

        Handing things to people with no strings – it’s good to make sure the children are not homeless. But it’s certainly not the entire solution. Nor is it an easy solution, whatever it is. I wish I knew.

        Reply ↓
  29. Lala land*

    I would love some advice on how to reduce my anxiety about a new work policy that’s being rolled out.
    Short version – we are going from an extremely flexible hybrid policy to a much more restrictive one, dictated by the C-suite. Unless my grand-boss can get some exceptions made, we are almost certainly going to lose some of our high-level SMEs, who have been working remotely for years. Even though the policy doesn’t affect me directly (my role has always been full-time onsite) it has the potential to drastically change my job b/c I primarily interact with one of the SMEs and that’s who directs most of my work. We have a couple of months before this is implemented but I’m already waking up at 4AM freaking out about it. Any advice? I am going to very reluctantly dust off my CV in case things get really bad, but I wouldn’t be looking to make a change otherwise.

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Which part of this is causing the anxiety, or is it all of it? i.e. people leave roles all the time, so is the concern that you’re not going to get to work with this SME anymore? That they won’t re-hire the SME? That you’ll have no one to direct your work? Something else?

      Reply ↓
      1. Lala land*

        Hmm, good point. I know it took over a year to hire this SME; they’ve been looking for another SME in this role for over a year as well. We are in a very niche subspecialty; I have some expertise gained on the job but don’t have direct education/experience to really be doing any of the higher level work our SME performs (I transitioned from a related field a couple of years ago). My only colleague in this role has said if the SME leaves, he will look for a new job because he feels like it would put a halt to his career growth. I think my fear is very much having to do my job (and the job of 2-3 others) with minimal/no support for an extended amount of time, and the possibility of making a mistake that could cost the company $$$ and potentially do harm to people (my role is healthcare safety related).

        Reply ↓
        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          I think the biggest argument you can make to the Grand Boss is that this new mandate will result in an exodus in roles that have historically been incredibly difficult to fill because they are so incredibly niche, and for that reason they should consider making an exception for the SMEs who have historically done a great job and have had no issues as remote employees.

          The main downside to this is that they may not be willing to let Grand Boss know that they’re looking for other work as a result of this policy change, and I suppose that’s not really your info to share either. I do wonder if the SMEs can approach Grand Boss as a unit, though, to make this argument.

          Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      Make a plan for your worst case scenario.
      * Finances – do you have a sufficient emergency savings to keep you going for a bit? If not, start saving.
      * CV – dust it off and put out some feelers. You don’t have to take anything you’re offered, but it can be good to know what the market is like right now.
      * Work – talk to your boss about contingency planning! Not just for this WFH situation either. If your job is reliant on one specific SME being there – not a role, this specific person – then you could just as easily be destabilized if they have a health crisis or win the lottery. Maybe the plan is that if this SME leaves you will work with the next person in the role. Or take over the work yourself. Or be completely out of luck. I’m not sure which is the option, but your bosses probably are.
      * Get your personal admin in a row. Healthcare appointments, car repairs, etc – try to frontload things.

      Sometimes the best way to deal with anxiety is to tell the anxiety demon at 4 AM “yes brain, I did the thing. We’ll be OK. Let me sleep!”

      Reply ↓
  30. Yes, I'll cry over spilt milk*

    Working with new graduates, Gen Z. Plot twist they’re only with us a year and effectively earn $7.70 an hour. To note: the government funded program managers aren’t all that helpful in this respect.

    I’m Gen X and have been in non-profit for 20+ years. In my last org/role we had 3 awesome Gen Z graduates who were fun, exciting and outgoing (and they were all women). In my new role, all our Gen Z graduates are men and very shy, quite awkward.

    Any feedback, advice, or guidance on supporting, motivating, and guiding Gen Z in what is likely their first (and sadly low paid) job.

    We’ll onboard a new group in June and I want to implement skill training such as time and task management, inter-personal communications (all three positions talk with those we support so they have external relatonship building reuqirements). I also want us to purchase their CliftonStrength report (Top 5) that they keep and we can all use to help them fine tune their strenghts (I’m not a certified coach, just an interested user) and help us, help them. Other non-profits do this with their volunteers.

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think all these “workplace norms” things are good, and are things you should do regardless of whether or not they’re fun/exciting/outgoing or shy/awkward.

      For me, when I was young and underpaid, what motivated me was being given the chance to work on meaningful projects. I know a lot of people at this level get to do grunt work, but it’s hard to get excited about the grunt work, especially for $7.70 an hour. They’re new to the workforce, so having an opportunity to work on a variety of things to see what they actually like doing would be good, and possibly more valuable than doing some sort of personality quiz (which is what this CliftonStrength thing sounds like).

      I’d also assess whether or not it’s actually a problem that your current batch are shy. There’s nothing worse than someone trying to “fix” a shy person if it doesn’t impact the work they’re doing.

      Reply ↓
      1. Yes, I'll cry over spilt milk*

        Yes, I don’t want to fix the shyness or any personality or preference trait. I just want to know how I should approach with respect and understanding. I found it interesting the correlation. I’ll admit I hope for a more engaging bunch, but that’s on me not them. This is our first cohort and we’re still ironing out processes.

        We have really good projects. Our ‘staff’ went to a meeting with their peers (in the same program) and they said that we’re offering them more work and learning than what their peers are telling them. I’m absolutely amazed at what they’ve done. And hope our next cohort is able to elevate their work.

        Reply ↓
        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          I think you kind of have your answer in there. You don’t want to judge this cohort based on the 3 people you had last round. So don’t.

          Be objective and self-aware about what you are doing. When you get a momentary feeling of “Bummer, I wish they were like X from last year”, stop and ask yourself why you think that way.

          Part of being a manager is getting along with everybody, not just the people you naturally vibe with. So you need to be clear in your own head about seeing the strengths of different people, and then figure out how to apply those strengths to your projects, and how to encourage people to grow in places that aren’t necessarily strengths.

          Reply ↓
    2. Seashell*

      Is it a job requirement that employees be fun, exciting, and outgoing or is that just your personal preference? You can adequately communicate with others without being an extrovert. Being shy and awkward doesn’t make you not “awesome.” Maybe it doesn’t make it easy to get jobs or convince the extroverts of the world that you are worthwhile, but there are a lot of worse personality traits in the world.

      I have a Gen Z son, and he’d probably be described by most as shy and awkward, but he’s a good person and gets pretty chatty when he’s comfortable with someone. He has his challenges, but I don’t think all the training in the world would alter his personality. Don’t go into this thinking you’re going to get a square peg to fit in a round hole.

      Reply ↓
        1. Seashell*

          My advice is to change your mindset that everyone should behave a certain way. You can try to turn the characters from Silicon Valley into the Prom King if you want, but I think you’re not going to get very far. Maybe focus on training them how to deal with your clientele and, if their personality traits are actually getting in the way of that, deal with it then and tell next year’s hiring manager that you prefer a different type of hire.

          I personally can’t imagine what someone could do in a nonprofit workplace to be labeled “exciting.” Are they jumping out of airplanes during their lunch break or randomly bursting into song & dance in the front lobby?

          Reply ↓
        2. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

          No one wants to help someone who gives entitled, dickish replies to everything. Read the room. It’s not cute or funny.

          Reply ↓
      2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Good point. What one person sees as “fun, exciting, and outgoing” I might see as “unserious, overconfident, and unfocused”.

        Reply ↓
    3. Anon for This*

      You don’t say what they do in their work so it’s kind of hard to say, but give them assignments to do. E.g, if they are going to an external meeting: Please find out when supported person/entity plans to begin x project. Meet named person and ask them about y. Take notes of the meeting and write a summary report. Those kinds of things. Someone who is shy may just hang out by the coffee and not talk to anyone unless they have to – these kinds of things may help. One boss I knew actually went so far as to plant some information with a friend of his and assigned shy guy to ask about it – that way he knew that shy guy had actually talked to him and didn’t just eavesdrop on someone else’s conversation.

      Reply ↓
    4. deesse877*

      I teach at the university level and feel confident offering you two specifics strategies:

      a) Make sure that younger employees know that required software knowledge, including use of e-mail if that applies, is really required, and serves important purposes (not just a hoop to jump through). Most use only social media platforms personally, and these days educational environments through the graduate level tend to use “learning management systems” that emulate the frictionlessness of social media, and don’t resemble the workplace at all. UNless they’ve already had an internship or professional job, the reliance of most workplaces on non-intuitive, sometimes cumbersome archives– e-mail, internal file systems–will come as a real surprise.

      b) Related to the first: make sure that younger employees know that independent problem-solving is both necessary and helpful. Many may perceive it as disrespectful or unhelpful to try to figure out something on their own, and most will need to build skills in, e.g., googling solutions for software glitches.

      Like others replying to your initial question, I perceive a lot of judgment in your initial question and your hostile replies, mostly because you haven’t actually said why being “shy” and “awkward” are minuses for you, and so it comes across as a personal caprice on your part. I think that’s worth underlining, because if you come across that way to the new employees themselves, it’ll obviously be counter-productive.

      The things that I mentioned, though–tell them that they really have to use the tools that you have provided, and tell them that they really have to think for themselves–are hard to anticipate, since they seem so obvious. I initially felt like it was just a personality thing when I couldn’t get my students to freaking follow directions or advocate for themselves, but eventually a few of them trusted me enough to explain that my specific asks seemed weird and foreign to them. My sense is that lockdown was a profoundly infantilizing experience for most children and young adults, and that many of the shifts it created (such as extremely dumbed-down and authoritarian teaching styles) have persisted.

      IN short, your empathy has to be radical because it’s actually really hard to anticipate what the kids need.

      Reply ↓
  31. CTT*

    Lawyers of AAM, what to do when a client is just…the worst? Not in an ethical way, just extremely difficult to deal with. I was engaged to do a very fact-intensive regulatory filing for a client and they have (1) changed their mind several times on who will even be the filing party, (2) will not read anything I send them and so they keep asking questions they should already have a handle on at this stage in the process, and (3) have not sent me any of the information I need for the filing, even though they demand that it must be done by early next week (it usually takes me 2-3 weeks to put everything together and get feedback on the draft filing and finalize. And the filing itself is a half-day process). I’ve sent lots of emails with action items lists and simplified it down as much as possible, but nothing is getting through to them. I suppose I can be content in just billing them for the fourth time of explaining a very basic concept, but it’s so frustrating!

    Reply ↓
    1. My Brain is Exploding*

      Assuming you don’t care if you keep them or not, you didn’t say. If you can, start raising your rates to them (either hourly billables or specific rates for specific items – depends on how you/your firm work these out). They may seek different counsel. If not, at least you will feel better about doing something so frustrating. Or you could have a meeting with them and lay out everything, stating then IN WRITING (which you may already do) that regulatory items MUST be turned in to you by X dates ahead of time and that if they aren’t, then your billing rate doubles. They may leave over that. My lawyer friend just worked thru this with a client and essentially fired them.

      Reply ↓
    2. Ginger Baker*

      IANAL but I do work with them (and clients) all the time, in a role where I have to get information from people I have no real power over. So! My advice would be, schedule a “working call” where you get on the phone and talk through it all live…and sit on the phone while your client finds and emails various docs to you. Obvs bill for the whole thing, plus prep time and time after to process everything! If you can keep them on the phone and not let them go until everything you need is checked off, you should (albeit it tediously) make progress. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        Yup. Some people just do not process digital information well and do better with a phone call. Or being in person.

        Reply ↓
      2. CTT*

        Oh I love a phone call in general and a check list call in particular. Unfortunately my repeated requests for one have been ignored.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ginger Baker*

          Honestly…you know your situation better than anyone here, but I am not above resorting to unscheduled repeated chasing calls, depending on the urgency (and “I need 20 work hours to complete this and we are now 4 days away and I don’t have the info, so while I COULD squeeze it in, theoretically, getting this info tomorrow or the next day, it would close to kill me” IS URGENT). I would also consider escalating to other people at the client’s office (their admin of course is a key person to connect with, but also, is there anyone else who could potentially provide this info? or, someone above your contact who can chase? Clearly that last is a serious escalation but sometimes Needs Must.)

          Reply ↓
  32. Hotdog not dog*

    My current boss just ranted about how he hates to micromanage, and with zero irony, without even pausing for a breath in between, told me to change the color coding I use on my task list because he feels that red is too aggressive. (I use red for urgent, yellow for important but not urgent, and green for needs to be done at the next convenient moment). We then spent 40 minutes choosing a color scheme more to his liking. For MY task list. Now he is upset because the orange (formerly red) items are still incomplete.
    All I can say to this is that I am very glad it’s Friday and Monday is a holiday!

    Reply ↓
    1. LuckyPurpleSocks*

      I feel you. My current supervisor leans hard towards micromanagement when he is feeling overwhelmed. I’ve sometimes had success by pushing back gently with the cheerfully spoken phrase “I’m happy to keep discussing [the exact number of salt and pepper packets we need for the catered lunch or whatever], but is focusing on this task the best use of your time as the [Formal Title]?”

      Reply ↓
  33. Quandry, perhaps of my own making*

    A longtime colleague who I consider a friend only works from home rarely, but over the past few months, when he does and I have a call with him, he seems, well drunk. Slurring, stumbling over words, showing up for meetings late and unprepared, none of which occur in-office. This has now happened the last 3-4 times he has WFH. This person has a long history of not taking even the most gentle feedback from me well, so I don’t think expressing concern directly is the way to go. Our mutual direct supervisor is on leave so we’re both currently reporting to our grandboss. HR is incompetent, and the person I trust most to raise the issue with is grandboss, but even though that’s the person I want to tell from a “compassionate human” angle, bringing speculation of something this significant to the C-suite seems extreme. I’m not sure what I’m asking for, exactly, but any insights would be appreciated…

    Reply ↓
    1. Rick Tq*

      If it only happens if they work at home there may be an issue there.

      Carbon Monoxide poisoning is a silent problem and with the cold temperatures we are keeping our houses closed and running the furnace a lot more.

      Reply ↓
      1. Reba*

        Bringing up this possibility might give you some cover with the coworker, while also signaling to them that no, they are not hiding it well.

        Reply ↓
    2. WorkerDrone*

      Unless there is something that affects your job (for example, being unprepared for a meeting means that the goals of the meeting weren’t accomplished), I wouldn’t bring it up.

      If there are things that directly affect your job, bring it up to grandboss without speculating on why your colleague is unprepared or whatever. Just state the facts and ask for guidance on how to proceed.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alex*

      I would stay out of it. You aren’t his manager, and if he is someone who doesn’t take feedback well, it’s hard to see him as being someone who will appreciate your bringing his problems to the attention of the C-suite. You say he is a friend, but if you think approaching him in person would blow up in your face, it would probably not go any better by reporting him to the grandboss. If you MUST say something out of concern, say it to him directly, and expect it to not go well.

      Reply ↓
    4. Cordelia*

      why do you want to tell someone? It doesn’t sound like you feel you are close enough friends to be able to raise this with him on a personal level, so although you might care about him there’s not a lot you can do there. Is his work performance affecting you and your work? In which case you need to bring it up with your manager, but keep it focused on work and not on speculation. “Bob was late for the meeting and didn’t have the XYZ report so I wasn’t able to complete the ABC project”. If it’s not affecting you, leave it to your manager to address his lateness and lack of preparation.

      Reply ↓
    5. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I would focus on the fact that he’s unprepared for meetings and shows up late, rather than say that he appears drunk. If he’s speaking incoherently, that’s relevant too, but if he’s just stumbling over words, that might not be worth bringing up. Fwiw, there are medical conditions that can cause this as well, not just drunkenness, which is why I’d focus on the behavior and the impact on the business needs rather than tell grandboss you think he’s been drunk. For all you know, he’s been WFH *because* he has a medical condition, even if that seems the less likely explanation.

      Reply ↓
    6. BuildMeUp*

      If you bring it up to him directly, I would frame it as friendly concern and leave any speculation out of it. Like, “Coworker, can I talk to you about something? I’ve noticed [X behavior – lateness, etc.] and it’s really unlike you. Is everything okay? Is there anything I can help with?”

      I wouldn’t mention the slurring of words, and I definitely wouldn’t suggest that they’re drunk. As someone else mentioned, it’s possible they have a medical condition or that something else is going on (extreme tiredness, etc.).

      If you don’t feel comfortable bringing it up to them at all, I’m not sure if there’s a way to raise it with your grandboss without potentially getting your coworker in trouble, though.

      Reply ↓
  34. Dwight Beets*

    Vent post. I’m just super burnt out.  My employer just cannot get pay salaries as promised.  I’ve been owed money for years.  Now my paycheques are just weird amounts, with odd amounts deducted or added with no explanation, and there’s no one to answer questions anymore.  If you call the Pay Centre, you only get a receptionist who emphasizes and agrees to make a note that you’ve called.  They don’t even assign someone to call you back.  Now when my boss asks me to do anything, my first thought is always, “if we can never meet service standards for pay, why are my own timelines so important to meet?”  I want to confront her and say, “I thought this department has decided deadlines aren’t important anymore?”

    And funnily enough, my employer is always doing things like, “please complete this survey on how we can be an employer of choice for the LGBTQ+ crowd.”  Ok let’s walk before we run folks. 

    Reply ↓
    1. Antilles*

      I assume you’re not in the US based on your spelling, so I need to ask:
      Do you have a Department of Labor or equivalent who is responsible for enforcing paycheck laws? If you’re not sure, do some Google research about “London paycheck law” (or whatever) and see what you can track down.
      At least here in the US, paycheck law is pretty damn clear that you have to be paid within X days of the end of the pay period…and merely mentioning that to your payroll department can get results even from a normally-slow bureaucracy.

      Reply ↓
  35. Justin*

    I’ve been puzzling on something, I wonder what you all think – I believe that a lot of ineffiency is caused by a confusion between things that are complicated vs things that are complex.

    What I mean is, these two things are used as synonyms but they aren’t.

    Complicated things follow patterns. They may have many moving parts that you need expertise to understand, but they don’t change all that much. Like, trains are complicated – you couldn’t build one. But they’re not that complex to use. You get on. You get off. Any sort of machine is this way. Watches, etc.

    Complex things are much harder to predict. Anything involving human behavior usually falls in here. Communication, and so forth. Politics, in fact.

    I am saying all this to say, when we apply linear (ie, meant for complicated things) solutions to dynamic (ie complex) issues, we spin in circles forever. I fully understand why we do this, because accepting the inability to predict things is hard. It’s why economists still struggle to accept human irrationality.

    All this is to say, I run into this issue a lot at work, as an educator of professionals/adults.

    I am trying to build trainings on topics that are BOTH complicated and complex. And my approach is to be very direct about the complicated stuff – it’s not easy but if you practice, you can learn. Whereas I believe that the complex parts are mostly learned through experience and time. Frankly, as a qualitative research in my spare time, it’s why I only do interviews rather than trying to predict.

    This is a lot of words to say, I wonder if you can think about times when you or your job tried to apply a linear solution to a complex problem and had it blow up in their face, or vice versa – sometimes there really is just one way to use a system and you need to learn which buttons to press.

    Anyway, just a work-related thought I was having this morning.

    I work tangentially in lending, and I feel as though underwriting is complicated, but the relationship between funders and borrowers is complex, and we often confuse the two, which helps no one.

    Reply ↓
    1. Angstrom*

      Interesting. I was just having a discussion with a colleague about the difference between “simple” and “easy”. We were talking about designing and building a fluid delivery system that had to maintain constant pressure across a wide range of flow rates. The task is simple — clearly defined, well understood, requires no new inventions or technology — but we know from experience that getting it right — and proving it — will take several iterations and a LOT of testing. It won’t be easy.

      Reply ↓
      1. Justin*

        That is basically the same thing from the opposite angle. It’s not 1 to 1 but I’d say there’s a spectrum from simple to complicated and a spectrum from easy to complex (or difficult), and the two criss cross in ways that make life the thing that it is.

        Reply ↓
    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      I worked years ago at a chemical testing laboratory. They would test things looking for specified chemicals. Most of that is complicated, but yes, you put the sample in a machine and it checks and you get an answer. Different tests had different machines. They also tested for radioactive chemicals, and that was complex. You had to understand what was going on, the chemistry was more hands-on, you had to interpret the data, had to do complex math on the results.

      I am not a chemist, but my spouse also worked there as a radiochemist. New management came in and wanted to treat both the analytical chemistry and the radiochemistry departments the same, wanted similar procedures and processes. They couldn’t understand what you’re describing above, that complicated and complex were not the same, and could not be treated the same. It didn’t go well. We both left.

      Reply ↓
      1. Justin*

        I think of AI this way too. (I don’t wanna talk about the environmental impact, I’m making a point.)

        What it should be able to help us with is things that are complicated. It doesn’t know any more than it’s been told, but it should be able to arrange things in an order, etc etc.

        But we’re insisting we can use it for complex things (hiring, writing) and it is very very very bad at this because WE are bad at it (overall, individuals are good at it).

        Reply ↓
  36. sdog*

    I’d say this varies so much from one workplace to the next and also even internally from one manager to the next. Mine is pretty flexible but asks that we be generally available during the regular workday (I’m not public facing but do work with others who or who work standard business hours and rely on me to be available). So while I manage my own time, I communicate if I know I’ll significantly veer from the schedule. Boss is flexible if I say that I need to flex my schedule, for example, during school breaks (and the reality is that she likely wouldn’t notice anyway), but I let her know her anyway and make sure that I’m putting in the time even if it’s not during the normal hours.

    If I’m cutting out for short periods to say, pick up a kid or drop kid off to an activity, I don’t announce it and don’t usually make up the time. Today, for example, I’ll likely put in some solid time from 10-4 and call it good. If I’m running late here or there, or need to leave a bit early, I don’t mention it. I have evening meetings often, and those days, I come in late that day or the following day without announcing. I often take longer breaks or take calls while I’m out walking during lunch. Since I often get pulled into meetings, I’ll block off times that I might need for personal appointments and errands but won’t necessarily make up that time later.

    I work for a government agency, so I do have to report hours, but I rarely track it closely and just put full 8 hour days regardless of what I actually work (unless I’ve requested leave).

    All that being said, I also often work a lot more than 40 hours. If things need to get done, I do them, even if it means late nights or weekends. I am the only person that does what I do in my group/agency, so it’d be obvious if it didn’t get done. This is why I feel comfortable “slacking” off at other times. I’m conscientious about getting everything done and being communicative where I feel it’s needed, and I like to think those qualities over the years have earned me the flexibility that I now have.

    I also think I have a reasonable boss and if I ever felt that my workload was requiring me to eat up too many hours, she’d find a way to get me help.

    Reply ↓
  37. Sarashina*

    I don’t know that there’s a good answer to this, but would love to hear all of your thoughts! My department recently had to re-post a job, as the first search failed when the two finalists had to drop out. My direct report really, really wants this position. The problem is… he was already turned down for this position last time around because he did not have the right experience. This was about a month ago, so nothing has really changed.

    I’ve had a few honest talks with him about his chances, but he’d still really like to apply ‘just in case,’ and he doesn’t seem at all convinced that his experience still isn’t there – he thinks that he’d figure it out if they gave him a chance. Do I just need to let this happen? Is there any other advice I can give him?

    Reply ↓
    1. Honoria Lucasta*

      Would it hurt his standing in the company to submit an application again? Or would it just be a waste of his time / a potential disappointment?

      If the first, I think you should explain to him that since he was not selected a month ago, it would look like he has really poor judgment if he threw his hat in the ring again so soon when his application hasn’t changed substantially in any way. Lay out the professional consequences clearly and then let him decide.

      If it’s going to waste his time and potentially set him up to be disappointed in the company without actually creating professional blowback, I would be more inclined to leave it at what you’ve already said. He seems intent on applying anyway, and he is the one who has to manage his own time/emotions/expectations. You’ve given him the information and he can do with it what he wants.

      Reply ↓
    2. WorkerDrone*

      Have you been blunt that, if contacted as a reference, you’ll need to be honest about his lack of experience and that you don’t see him as a good fit at this time?

      Even if he could convince the hiring committee to re-interview him and give him a chance, knowing that he won’t get a good reference for this specific position may be enough to convince him.

      You might also (if this is true in your org) let him know that re-applying to a position he’s already been turned down for so soon would flag him as someone who doesn’t understand the position needs, or his own current place in his career, and that it could hurt future employment chances that he IS qualified for?

      I know at my organization, someone continuing to apply in these circumstances would get a reputation as someone who just doesn’t get it, and that would stick with them (whereas someone who took a shot once, but gracefully accepted the “no” would not have that issue).

      If he STILL insists, I don’t think there is anything you can do.

      Reply ↓
  38. New overtime rules*

    I am in Germany, not a manager. Exempt/non-exempt does not apply.
    We all have contracts for 35 hours / week, but most of us regularly work more. If necessary and approved in advance, we can get time off for overtime, not overtime pay.
    The law requires that time worked be clocked in some way. This is a fairly recent change and has not yet been implemented in the company.
    We employees have been pushing for a time clock for some time in order to make clear how much overtime is worked.
    In December, the following plan was announced:
    Time will be recorded in some way. The first 3.5 hours of overtime per week are “for the house” and won’t be compensated in any form. The second 3.5 hours per week can be taken as extra PTO within a certain time frame. Additional overtime up to 7 hours per week (I think) can be approved in advance or retroactively within reason (that at least is an improvement).
    We were asked to sign an addendum to our contracts agreeing to the above.

    As might be expected, there was a lot of pushback to this plan and several alternatives were suggested by the employees. No addenda have been presented yet.
    Management has run whatever they’ve come up with by a lawyer and had to revise it (allegedly because the way they planned to record hours worked was not legal). The new plan will be announced on Tuesday.
    I’m interested in y’all’s opinions/reactions – especially from those who are also in Germany.
    (The reason for the 35 hour week is that when the company was founded the pay was so low – and the idealism so high – that codifying more hours seemed really off. 37.5 or 38 would have been typical.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Productivity Pigeon*

      I’m not German but Swedish but Sweden is also a heavily unionized country.

      Not compensating you for the first 3.5 hours sounds very weird. I’m trying to think of ways to write a contract that would make that possible.
      Have you discussed this with a union rep, if you have one available or if anyone of you is a member of one?

      You might also have a federal or state labor board/agency you might be able to contact.

      Reply ↓
      1. New overtime rules*

        We are not unionized. Not compensating the first 3.5 hours is what the addendum is supposed to cover. We were encouraged to sign, but no one has to.
        We haven’t been told yet what the final deal is.
        If it comes through as announced I will be either working 35 hour weeks or 42 hour weeks, but not staying late now and again.

        Reply ↓
        1. Productivity Pigeon*

          I don’t know exactly how it works in Germany but here you can get legal advice from unions even if your particular workplace isn’t unionized.

          Even with the addendum, it’s a very strange setup that seems overly complicated.

          Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      What is the point of having a contract if the company doesn’t abide by it? And what’s up with 3.5 hours “for the house?” I assume your company sucks because n other ways?

      Reply ↓
      1. New overtime rules*

        Good question. The company was founded with a great deal of idealism and many of us continue to bring idealism. In spite of everything, this is the best job I’ve ever had and I still believe in the mission. For me, it doesn’t suck. Others would disagree.
        That said, the 3.5 hours for the house really disappointed me, especially the fact that the have to brought each week before PTO can be earned. As I said above, if that goes through, I’ll either be working 35 hours or 42.

        Reply ↓
  39. Looking for Misogyny Papers/Resources*

    I am trying to recreate something I made a decade or so when I worked in a different agency where sexism was rampant, very gross, and not dealt with until it hit the front page of national media. Of course, in the assorted moves and computer changes since, I can’t seem to find my original.
    I had made a table that had a column with the general “type” of behavior (benevolent sexism, mansplaining, manpeating, internalized misogyny, etc), a column with a high level definition, a column with high level of why it was bad, a column with links to articles that were both very scientific & ones that were more accessible like some Captain Awkward, and then a column with bulleted examples seen in that office.
    I also had a link to a university’s implicit bias tests that I would dearly love to find again… I could have sworn it was Cornell but I can’t locate it. They had multiple tests on all sorts of implicit biases… they were basically ask you a question and then you had to click as fast as you could through a series of flashed up photos of who was most likely to XYZ.
    Thankfully, I am now in a fantastic office/agency where it isn’t an issue, but a friend is now dealing with a similar issue where every man in the office truly believes they are feminists and definitely do call out any behavior they see in other men that is obvious, but they exhibit a ton of subtle things that are really holding women back there. Everything from it just being a given that the men will drive the 4×4 on field visits and the men being given the late shifts so the women aren’t working alone after dark, to it just being assumed that the women will make the coffee & be the ones to take the meeting notes/schedule meetings.
    Anything you guys could direct me to so I’m not recreating from scratch including locating the research/articles would be much appreciated!

    Reply ↓
    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      I remember taking an online test like you are describing, and I think it was Cornell as well, if that helps. But it was years ago.

      Reply ↓
    3. Ginger Baker*

      …I don’t have any great links (although DO recommend to everyone that they read The Al Capone Theory of Sexual Harassment!) but would ABSOLUTLEY LOVE if you wanted to share this once you reconstruct it.

      Reply ↓
  40. This is Just a Vent*

    I am from an area that was decimated by wildfires and then mudslides few years ago. It’s somewhat recovered but not entirely.

    I now work across the country at a national organization that has asked me to be in charge of our org’s response to the wildfire situation in LA, and I am floundering. My brain would prefer not to. I spent a whole day Pinteresting on my phone this week because I just cannot. It’s not because I don’t care, it’s because I still have PTSD from the wildfires in my hometown. People at my org want to talk about it ALL THE TIME in a way that feels like disaster tourism to me. I am really struggling with it all. I just needed to vent.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this right now :(

      I know you said your post was just a vent, so skip the rest of my comment if you’re not open to any advice. Is it possible to ask your organization for someone else to be in charge of the response to the LA wildfires? “Because of the wildfires and mudslides in [area where you’re from], I don’t think I’m the best person to handle the response to the current LA wildfires. Emotionally, it hits too close to home for me.”

      Reply ↓
      1. This is Just a Vent*

        Unfortunately, they picked me BECAUSE of that and it’s supposed to be an “honor”. I have a fair amount of sway but not on this apparently. The org just DOES NOT get it.

        Reply ↓
    2. Productivity Pigeon*

      Are you able to decline or do you have to do it?

      It sounds like a very difficult situation and I don’t blame you for not wanting to do something that is deeply traumatic to you.

      I think most reasonable people would accept that as a valid reason to turn this down but I realize you might not be in a situation where you’re able to say no.

      If you have to do it, are you able to perhaps see a therapist who can help you with some distancing techniques?

      Reply ↓
      1. This is Just a Vent*

        Unfortunately not :( this is a special project that I am supposed to be “honored” to do. They do not get it at all.

        Reply ↓
    3. Productivity Pigeon*

      Huh, I wrote a comment but it must’ve gotten eaten.

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this and I wouldn’t want to do it either if I was in your shoes.

      I do think most reasonable bosses would see a deep trauma like this as a valid reason to turn it down but I realize you might not be in a situation where it’s possible to decline.

      I hope you can though.

      Reply ↓
      1. This is Just a Vent*

        That’s the really messed up part – they picked me because I’ve been through it and think I should be “honored”.

        Reply ↓
        2. Productivity Pigeon*

          Oh wow.

          That’s… something else.

          I’m sorry you can’t turn it down, it’s a really awful position for them to put you in.
          Some people are just so clueless and tactless!

          Reply ↓
        3. saskia*

          You keep saying that you have to do this because “they picked you.” Have you actually said no? Tell them you cannot take on this project. Be resolute and forceful. Not sure who “they” are, but if your direct manager isn’t involved, get them involved and get their help in supporting your refusal.

          “I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear originally — I cannot do this special project. I need to hand over these duties to another person as soon as possible. Please let me know that is so I can schedule a handover meeting.”

          Reply ↓
          1. saskia*

            just realized the title of your post is “just a vent,” so sorry for offering advice. That said, maybe it’s useful to you anyway? Good luck.

            Reply ↓
  41. Emily Elizabeth*

    Informational interview question: does anyone have recommendations of what to actually say in an email request to take someone out to coffee? I’ve read Alison’s advice on how to prepare for the actual interview itself to hopefully not be a waste of time, but am not sure how much to say or not in my request.

    Specifically if relevant, I work in early childhood education and am wanting to learn more about pediatric occupational therapy. There is a nature-based pediatric OT in my town whose work I have followed and admired on social media for a while. I recently learned they have volunteers and I reached out asking about volunteer opportunities, and learned there are no current opportunities but she will add me to the email list. I would love to still meet up with her sooner and ask her some questions about her path and/or shadow but am feeling very awkward about it!

    Thanks y’all!

    Reply ↓
    1. LuckyPurpleSocks*

      Maybe something like this (customized by you, of course)
      “Hello [Dr LastName/Ms LastName,
      My name is FirstName LastName. We spoke briefly over email/the phone about possible volunteer opportunities at your clinic, and I appreciate being added to the email list. I currently work in early childhood education, and I want to continuing my education in/get a degree in/learn more about pediatric occupational therapy. The information and practices shared on your clinic’s social media and website have been very inspirational. I’m sure you are extremely busy, but I wanted to ask if you would be available for a 20 minute zoom or phone call to chat about the educational and professional path that led you to [clinic name], as I aspire to work in a similar organization in the future [if true] and would love some advice on how to get started. Thank you very much for your time.
      LastName First Name”
      I wouldn’t ask to shadow her right off the bat, since you haven’t started volunteering with them yet. Be aware that you might not get a response, or the answer might be “no/not now”, in which case you would respond “Of course, I understand, thank you for letting me know.” I hope this helps!

      Reply ↓
  42. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

    My very close relative is about to start working for her local school district as a paraprofessional doing one on one support for special needs students. She previously worked at a preschool and has goals to become a speech language pathologist. This is her first time working in a more professional environment and I have mild anxiety for her.

    She’s great with kids in good part because she is a bit of a kid herself. She’s not very buttoned up and can have big emotional reactions to things, and is a bit forgetful (ADHD). I really want to help her succeed because she’s so excited about the job and life has been incredibly unkind to her. Does anyone have advice about how to act in this kind of role or what expectations she might run into? How do teachers prefer paras act in their classrooms? Any secrets to being a great one that I can share with her?

    Reply ↓
    1. Manders*

      My best friend was a teacher with a few paras over the years. She LOVED having another adult in the room, even if it was just to give someone a look when a kid said something particularly funny or something. Some were more helpful with classroom tasks, and some weren’t.

      Reply ↓
    2. NeurodivergentTeacher*

      Since she is one on one, her first goal is supporting the student in all the ways outlined in the IEP.

      Being a para is hard because there isn’t a clear supervisor. The special ed office usually hires the para, but the para gets their daily tasks from the classroom teacher. Teachers and paras are at the same level in the reporting chain in a school. Some teachers struggle with managing paras, some have no problem.

      My advice would be the following.
      1. Start with the structures and routines the assigned student requires, but the classroom routines and the more individualized routines the student may need. This includes when and how to use any equipment (communication devices, gait trainers), behavior plans, and personal care routines (like diapering and feeding).
      2. The teacher should provide the academic materials for the assigned student’s needs. While the teacher should be working a large part of the day with the student as part of the larger class, the para will sometimes monitor the student while doing academic work or work with them directly. Work on understanding the grade level standards, how the academic work is connected to the standards, and how the modifications are made, if any.
      3. Once you have a clear idea of the routine, check-in with the teacher to find out if the teacher wants you to do anything differently that day. This is especially important if a teacher isn’t used to having a para in their class-It’s like being a new manager who is learning to delegate.
      4. If the teacher assigned you to work with small groups of students–jump at this chance! If not, once mastery has been shown in the work specific to the assigned student, she could suggest partner or small group work that she could lead.

      I run a special ed department and I supervise a number of paras. I’ve also been a classroom teacher that had paras assigned. My daughter also has a one to one para. I have a rubric for paras and one of the biggest components is whether or not they can take direction from the teacher. When para relationships have gone bad, it is because the para thinks they know better than the teacher. While this could be the case, ultimately, the responsibility of the class falls on the teacher, and the teacher is held accountable to a much higher standard than a para. Once a para in my school has proven themselves, I give them a lot of autonomy, but I must first see that they understand that the teacher is the ultimate decider of what happens in the class.

      Reply ↓
    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      It’ll depend on the teacher. And if she wants a more professional job, she will have to find ways to manage her emotions and stay on task. This is a great opportunity for her to practice the soft skills before she invests in training etc.
      I’d encourage her to focus on her role as an adult in a space with children. The kids will be watching and taking notes, so anything she can do to be the best role model she can be is important — not that she has to be perfect — but she can model behaviors like using checklists and tools to manage her tasks, or taking deep breaths when things get exciting or overwhelming — because those are the skills that her students are going to be working on too.

      Reply ↓
    4. Double A*

      The good news is that in most schools even teachers are not particularly buttoned up these days. If you’re a 1:1, depending on the type of disability, she may need to be somewhat hands on, so casual, comfortable clothing will be most appropriate anyway.

      I think the biggest frustration I’ve had with paras is if they’ve tried to dominate me as the teacher. The biggest thing is to take the teacher’s lead. And of course implement the ST’s IEP.

      Reply ↓
    5. Jeneral*

      Remember that you are not there to be the kids’ friend or to be liked by them. Of course you want a positive relationship and you want to be kind, but possibly the biggest way I see new teachers, or paras, going wrong is by forgetting that you’re not just there to be nice to the kids and babysit, you’re there to teach them specific things. Instructional time is so valuable, so just by keeping that in mind and not wasting time you’re off to a good start.
      Be prepared for work every day. Look ahead at tomorrow’s schedule & lesson plans.
      Having worked with support teachers or paras for several years: Do not distract the kids during the lesson! Do not start whispering with them while I’m desperately trying to keep their attention and focus. Do not have conversations with other adults. Remember you are there to support the lesson. And be on time.

      Reply ↓
  43. ThursdaysGeek*

    I am retiring and next Friday is my last day.

    I’m going to send an email letting my co-workers know how to contact me. I’m cleaning out my office (and leaving in the back of a drawer a dried lemon that says I left this here deliberately).

    Is there anything else I should do, anything else people have regretted not doing when they have left a job they like, with people they like, at a company they like?

    Reply ↓
    1. HailRobonia*

      You know what they say: when life gives you lemon, put one in the back of a drawer with a cryptic message written on it.

      Reply ↓
      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        There was a discussion here a few months back about the weird (and nasty) things people have found in new offices. I didn’t mean to dry it, but it dried up before I could eat it, and I’d rather go weird than nasty. I’ll be wiping down everything, so the area is clean.

        Reply ↓
          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            It’s about as gross as the fake plastic fruit you buy at an art supply store. I had no idea they could dry so nicely.

            Reply ↓
        3. Cordelia*

          But since you say you like these people and this company, why go either weird or nasty? I think I’d concentrate on letting colleagues know that I’d enjoyed working with them, and on leaving on friendly terms.

          Reply ↓
  44. New Job Jitters*

    It’s the end of my first week at a new job! Yay! Do y’all think it would be too soon to announce on LinkedIn? Most of the advice I’ve seen says to wait at least a couple months before announcing it, but I’m so excited to share the news! And since I moved 2,000 miles for this job, if it doesn’t work out for whatever reason, deleting a post on LinkedIn would be the least of my concerns. I’d also like my network to know that I no longer live in the same area. Obviously I can’t describe my new role in much detail after just one week, but I don’t usually see these types of announcements going into detail anyway. What does the commentariat think?

    Reply ↓
    1. Procedure Publisher*

      I am on a contract that will last three months. I only put the job on my profile and didn’t make a post about it. If I end up converting, I’ll make the post then.

      Reply ↓
      1. New Job Jitters*

        Well that makes sense for a temporary position, but I’m really curious to hear folks’ advice and opinions for permanent jobs.

        Reply ↓
    3. Pentapus*

      there’s no rule. I moved 3000 miles, but may never update linked in. in principle I’m waiting till my probation period is up, but … yeah, probably won’t update. unless my old employer, who laid me off, goes belly up.

      Reply ↓
  45. HailRobonia*

    Any Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy fans out there? Any of you use AI assistance for email communications? I use one and I swear it is one of the “Genuine People Personalities” – when I ask it to help draft an email it is overwhelmingly enthusiastic and positive to the point of sounding sarcastic.

    Reply ↓
    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Aah. Brings back memories of a beverage dispenser at my old job that was able to create a beverage almost, but not entirely, unlike tea.

      Reply ↓
  46. flora_poste*

    I think I will be offered a job with a partner organisation. Should I take it? Please help!

    Pros:
    – Slightly more senior position.
    – More money.
    – It’s a single-issue organisation, so I would be able to develop deeper substantive experience/networks.
    – It’s a more stable contract – two years, where my current contract expires in July, and may or may not be renewed (likely, but TBC).

    Cons:
    – I love my current team/manager, and there are some question marks over the new team/manager.
    – The single issue is politically difficult and polarising, and is likely to become more so in the coming years. I feel very strongly about it, but others working in this issue-space feel VERY VERY strongly about it, so it might be a Bit Much to work on it all the time.

    Other info:
    – My current org is somewhat in flux with redundancies on the cards, and although my role is one designated as ‘mission critical’, it’s likely that if I leave my team won’t be able to recruit someone else to it – the post will be lost. Which would be bad for the team and the work we’re doing.

    Any advice welcome!

    Reply ↓
    1. Productivity Pigeon*

      I would probably take the more stable job but I see why you’re having difficulties choosing. These really were some pretty weighty pros and cons.

      Reply ↓
    3. WellRed*

      Your reasons for staying seem to be mostly about the impact on the current team but not for you. Take all of that off the table. Not your problem.

      Reply ↓
  47. Productivity Pigeon*

    TL;DR: I’m terrified of looking for jobs after my burnout and
    subsequent career change. I also have a huge gap in my resume.

    Five years ago, I was let go with severance from my job as a management consultant after a 8-month sick leave for burnout. (No, I don’t live in the US.) I was a decent if not great management consultant but struggled majorly with procrastination, especially with larger, ”floatier” projects that required me to drive the whole thing forward myself.

    I then decided to go back to college and studying a completely different thing. (Political science.)

    It was a challenge (thanks to COVID and ADHD) and I didn’t actually finish my degree.

    So now I’m looking for jobs and have been for quite a while. I don’t necessarily think I’m unemployable but I’m still so terrified I can barely make myself apply to anything.

    Just opening my resume makes me feel slightly nauseous.
    I feel as if every word is a lie and I struggle to describe my ”accomplishments” in a way that doesn’t make me feel like a cheat.

    I guess I’m frightened I won’t be any good at any job.

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      Make it smaller.

      Your goal isn’t to get a job- your goal is to turn in an application. Do one application a day Monday-Friday, then rest on the weekend. For the next 2 weeks, you are not trying to get a job. You are systematically breaking down the fear of applying through self-directed exposure therapy. What you are facing is actually incredibly common amongst ADHDers (including me). Because we approach the world so differently, we end up with a lot more overwhelm, failure, and criticism, and when that comes together around a certain task, it creates a natural fear response around that task. So then we are not just facing the task, but an immense emotional hurdle around the task. There’s a wonderful breakdown of this on the How To ADHD YouTube channel called The Wall of Awful. I’ll link it in a follow-up comment.

      It can also help to think of yourself as a friend. Sit down and talk to yourself as you would your BFF. If this was your friend’s career you were looking at, how would you hype them up? What are the things that you would brag about on behalf of your friend? If you have a friend that hypes you up, reach out to them. Tell them that you’re paying for dinner/making them food and you need to borrow their brain for an hour to help you hype yourself up in your resume. Give yourself permission to GET! HYPED! Sell yourself like a mediocre tech bro (especially since, trust me, there is a 99.999% chance that you are vastly more competent than the self-hyping mediocre bros I’ve had to work with. And really, you are doing the rest of us a favor by hyping yourself and catching the attention of a hiring manager rather than letting a self-hyping incompetent person do it and making the rest of us have to work with that person).

      And feel free to return here every week, and we’ll help hype you. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      2. Productivity Pigeon*

        Thank you for the link, I’ll check it out!

        And thank you for the empathy and advice.

        I guess I get stuck in the “I failed at work last time”-mindset.

        But even if it crashed and burned at the end, I did do good things. I was even offered the role of head of the Nordic trainee program, a two year program of courses and internal projects for all newly hired graduates, all 900 of them.

        I try to remind myself of that and other things but the failures always seem to overshadow it.
        I was never great at keeping deadlines for self-directed projects and in the end, I was pretty much incapable of it.

        Reply ↓
    2. TheGirlintheAfternoon*

      ferrina’s advice is excellent and I second it!

      I’m reading this comment as a fellow ADHD-er who 1) burned out hardcore in a field full of open-ended tasks and has since found a lot of satisfaction in a role with more definable goals, 2) dropped out of a higher ed program midway through the program and thus did not complete the degree, and 3) had to figure out how to talk about it in interviews/applications going forward.

      An technique to try, which may feel very awkward at first but will, I can almost promise you, eventually start to sink in, is to come up with a script you can say to yourself every time you start to think these unkind things about yourself. Such as:

      “I was dealing with a health issue that impacted my work but has since improved.” [This happens to a lot of people.]
      “I decided to use that time to take some additional classes in a field that had always interested me.” [I learned a lot about a subject I care about; that knowledge is meaningful regardless of my graduation status.]
      “Now I’m looking forward to getting the chance to work on [what this role/field/etc.] involves and to find a role that plays to my strengths, like X and Y.” [I have strengths as a potential employee, and there are employers who need them. There may be some roles that where my strengths aren’t a great match, and that’s fine.]

      And I mean EVERY TIME you think unkind things about yourself, you say this script – in your head, aloud, both, whatever. This is your script, which is 1) completely reasonable, 2) completely understandable, and 3) in fact objectively true. Repeat repeat repeat until it also feels true. Eventually, it will.

      I’m rooting for you!

      Reply ↓
      1. Productivity Pigeon*

        Oh thank you!!

        As sorry as I am that you have been struggling too, it is really comforting for me to know I’m not the only one. I barely talk about these things because I feel like such a failure and I feel so alone in it.

        You don’t have to answer if it’s too personal, but did you find a new job that you’re happy with?

        Reply ↓
  48. Dwight Beets*

    oh thanks yes I’m in Canada. If I worked for the private sector my employer would be bankrupted by fines by now, but I work for the federal government and they have chosen to have no penalties for their own payroll shenanigans. The govt has repeatedly said their own conduct is unacceptable but words only go so far after years of this.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      Leave.

      I’m guessing unionizing isn’t an option? Then leave. I don’t know what recourse you have for suing your own federal government, unfortunately.

      Reply ↓
    2. curly sue*

      Ohh… you’ve been Phoenixed. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. Can you move to an agency that doesn’t use the system? I remember seeing a few postings that made a point that their pay didn’t go through Phoenix. (BAC-LAC, I think?)

      (For those unfamiliar with the issue – there was a transition to a new centralized pay system for Canadian government in 2011, and the entire process was bolloxed up from start to finish. All the various provincial pay systems + union contracts + misc details shoved into notes fields in local offices got imported into this one big mess of a database and 14 years later it still hasn’t been straightened out. It’s been a nightmare for everyone involved.)

      Reply ↓
  49. ferrina*

    What does it look like when RTO is done well?

    I’m not asking if RTO should be done (I’m a fan of hybrid/flex), but if it is done, how can it be done well? What would decrease the burden on workers and help ease the transition?

    Reply ↓
    1. ShazamIT*

      Learn from my companies failures: Making sure everyone has a desk. Making sure the water cooler has water. Making sure the breakroom has chairs for lunch. Making sure the janitors know the people are coming and prepared to order more TP, paper towels. The first 2 months were seriously some hunger games about resources.

      Reply ↓
      1. Policy Wonk*

        May need to increase the janitorial service contract as well as they will now have more people to clean up after…

        If you didn’t provide your employees with laptops and they are using their own, make sure you have computers for them. There will still be a need for Zoom meetings – will your staff join individually, or do you expect them to join as a group from a conference room? Make sure conference room hook-ups work, and that there is a system to schedule time to use them.

        Do you have the following ready: Office supplies, lactation rooms, parking facilities? Did you provide transit subsidies and will they resume?

        Reply ↓
    2. Generic Name*

      My friend has been WFH since COVID, along with her whole department. They were just informed they would be RTO 3 days a week. They will be relocating their office to a much nicer office. My friend is bummed, but she’s not planning on quitting and isn’t angry or anything. I’m sure a large part of her equanimity is her personality; she is an eminently practical and reasonable person, and she’s been saying that WFH is a gift and she’ll enjoy it as long as it lasts. I think they also gave everyone like 6 months notice. I think it also helps that the new building is nicer (she described her old office as “kinda dumpy”).

      Reply ↓
    3. Seashell*

      My spouse is dealing with it recently and is resentful that it doesn’t seem to apply across the board, even among people with the same job titles/levels. I noted that there could be medical accommodations behind that, but that is reportedly not the case. So, if anyone has the power to do so, don’t play favorites and make all equivalent people go back at the same time.

      Reply ↓
  50. Syl*

    Please tell me if this is strange behavior from management.

    This December, my grandboss handed out holiday gifts and bonuses to about 40% of our team. They told these team members not to tell anyone else they received anything.

    The people who didn’t get a cash bonus and gift were not told why and there was no communication about this. It’s tough seeing your coworkers walk away with giant holiday gift baskets while you walk away with absolutely nothing and don’t know why.

    Please tell me if this is normal. I’m still feeling hurt by it.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If everyone who got a basket was hourly, and the non-basket people were salary/mgmt, this is very old school/patriarchal, but maybe not bizarre. If there wasn’t a clear hierarchical distinction, then yes, bizarre.

      It’s weird enough not having communications about it.

      Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      Absolutely weird. Was there any pattern in who got a basket and bonus? Did they have similar roles? All on a project/each worked on a few key projects? Were they the grandboss’s golfing buddies?

      Reply ↓
    3. Antilles*

      That’s very weird and problematic.
      And grandboss *knows* it’s weird and problematic because they went out of their way to conceal it. If they thought it was normal and reasonable to give gifts to some but not all, they wouldn’t have tried to slip it under the radar.

      Reply ↓
    4. Boss Scaggs*

      Not normal at all! If there was a good reason why some got bonuses and some didn’t, the boss wouldn’t have told people to keep it quiet.

      Besides that, it’s a stupid strategy anyway – nothing like this ever stays hidden for long.

      Reply ↓
  51. Miss Harriet*

    I need help from the “real world”!
    Are there any circumstances where adults have to write by hand either at work or in your personal life? (I handwrite things all the time but I’m middle-aged.)
    I’m a high school history teacher. My students handwrite on tests because after COVID I just cannot grade on a screen anymore.
    However, many of them struggle to write legibly (again COVID).
    Most do not see any reason to improve their handwriting.
    I know some colleges have returned to handwritten exams thanks to AI.
    I’m trying to decide if I just give up and let them type, I only have a few more years until retirement.
    Or is handwriting a skill they might actually need later in life?

    Reply ↓
    1. Working under my down comforter*

      I think we still have to sign for some things like packages or legal documents. I recently met with an attorney for will preparation and had to sign manual copies of all my documentation.

      Reply ↓
    2. Super Duper Anon*

      Other than signing my name, writing in a paper card, or filling out a paper form for my kids school once in a while, I almost never handwrite any more. And I am so glad for it. My handwriting was always bad. I have fine motor control issues, and if I have to write for too long it can start to hurt. I am so happy that most things are typed out now. I even have adobe pro at work, and will scan or convert paper forms that really need to be legible to fillable PDF, type in them, then print them back out.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Do you mean cursive, or just writing by hand in general?

      I think cursive is going away. You can make an argument that a hand-written thank you note is much nicer and more personal than a computer-printed one, but I’d accept hand-written block letters as just as valid as cursive.

      The other block-letter write by hand stuff that’s going to be with us for a while yet is: white boards & flip charts in group meetings, chalkboards, some technical drawings.

      Reply ↓
    4. ShazamIT*

      Everyone should be able to write legibly. My workplace is digital but we still get occasional write this on a post it note type situations.

      Reply ↓
    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I almost never need to write by hand in my job, aside from the occasional in-person meeting where I bring a notebook to take notes. I know others will bring a laptop to meetings, but I find that inconvenient, and I don’t like taking notes on my phone.

      I don’t write very often in my personal life either, but I still do it when sending birthday/holiday cards or making lists / working out some math stuff when that’s easier than opening an app or a computer.

      I think the point would be that even if you don’t do it often, it still needs to be legible otherwise what’s the point?

      Reply ↓
    6. ferrina*

      It depends, and it depends in ways that they can’t forsee. Maybe they will work in a situation where they need to quickly label a box. Or write an address on an envelope. Or fill out a form. Or write on the whiteboard in front of colleagues.

      I have terrible handwriting. I thought it wouldn’t be an issue. Then I ended up working at a daycare, filling out forms by hand. I was an adult actively practicing writing my ABCs so my handwriting would at least be legible. Don’t be me.

      But that said- it’s okay if you decide that you don’t want to die on this hill. These kids will figure it out.

      Reply ↓
    7. Bella Ridley*

      The vast, vast, vast majority of people in my work environment carry notepad and pen. 100% of the time. Very occasionally you will see someone who uses a tablet, but those are for specific work purposes. Meeting notes are done by hand exclusively. Electricity to charge devices is not always a given. Adverse conditions mean that technological solutions do not always work. Internet connectivity is not always present.

      Reply ↓
    8. Rick Tq*

      I’d say it is necessary, for personal security if nothing else. Anything electronic (ANYTHING) can be hacked and the information stolen. If it is written on paper you have to have the physical object.

      My experience is that I can remember things I wrote down far better than things I typed so there is that too.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        My work to-do list is always written by hand. If I write something by hand, I remember it much better and if the piece of paper with the list is right in front of me, it’s much harder to ignore!

        Reply ↓
    9. DancinProf*

      There’s good research suggesting that handwritten class notes lead to better learning. And from here in the higher ed world I do expect more handwritten exams to be required for exactly the reason you cite.

      Most of my colleagues and I also take notes by hand in meetings, but we’re middle-aged and we’re professors, so I don’t know how typical that is of the broader professional world.

      Reply ↓
    10. Mrovka*

      Writing notes longhand helps with information retention, as well as creative thought. In addition, there are some really cool jobs that have you go places where you can’t take electronics and will need to take notes – it helps if they (or someone else) can read their notes afterwards!

      Reply ↓
    11. Rick Tq*

      Notes on paper can be legible for centuries. I have class notes from 50 years ago that are still legible.

      Notes on computers can disappear in a heartbeat or be corrupted into unreadability by time.

      Your student’s handwriting will get better with practice like every other manual art.

      Reply ↓
    12. Watry*

      I can think of several reasons I might need to handwrite something, but with one exception (internal mail addressing) they’re all things like meeting notes and to-do lists, things that won’t been seen by anyone else. In my case it’s probably a good thing, my handwriting has never been incredibly legible.

      Reply ↓
    13. Admin of Sys*

      define ‘hand writing’
      If you mean cursive, then other than signing a name, I’ve never had to use it in adulthood, and am entirely fine with it being phased out of use. (I’m gen x) If you mean printing legibly, I do think it’s a necessary skill for a ton of situations, mostly when there’s not a way to leave a not electronically somewhere.

      Reply ↓
    14. Elsewise*

      I agree that they’ll need it, although a lot less than they do in school. I have a learning disability called dysgraphia that makes it difficult and painful for me to write by hand. It made school absolute hell until I was able to start typing assignments. In the workplace, I do need to write cards and occasionally take notes by hand, but in general no one objects if I bring my laptop for notetaking. (I could get an official accommodation for it, but I’ve never had to, I just tell people that it’s easier for me to type and no one has ever had an issue with it. It helps that I take legendarily great notes.)

      Reply ↓
    15. Miss Harriet*

      To clarify – I do mean printing legibly. I gave up on students writing in cursive over a decade ago. We cannot even write comments on their papers in cursive because students cannot read it – which slows down grading a lot.

      Reply ↓
    16. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Technology fails at weird, unexpected times. Printers die, the internet/power goes out, etc. Laptop batteries fail. You never know when you’re going to need to physically handwrite something that you completely expected to be able to type. Regular handwriting is a basic life skill.

      But some examples of real world needs for handwriting:

      -Every surgery I’ve ever had, the nurses or doctors have the surgery schedule and details written on a huge dry erase board in the surgery room. I’m sure there’s other medical-related instances that are similar to that. They opt for handwriting on dry erase because it’s faster, easier to change if surgery schedules change, and less likely to have typos.

      -Many restaurants and businesses have menus or specials or sales written out by hand. Who is doing the handwriting? Someone who works there, and you don’t want to be the person who tells your boss you can’t write out the specials because you don’t know HOW to write.

      -Intra and Inter-office mail usually requires handwriting to list the recipient, at least in every office I’ve worked in. Some things have to be sent physically and cannot be sent electronically.

      -Handwriting saves a lot of time in most cases where you *could* print off a label. A pen is much easier to grab than a computer connection to a printer.

      -For sure if they’re going to college, they need to be good at handwriting. They will have in-class essays/quizzes/finals/etc. that require it, especially as an anti-AI cheating tactic. And while professors are generally a lot more forgiving than many high school teachers make them out to be, they will get frustrated if they can’t read a student’s handwriting.

      -There are approximately a zillion instances where you need to at least be able to sign your name. And just as many where you might need to be able to read someone else’s handwriting.

      -You literally remember what you handwrite better than what you type. There are countless studies that have shown this.

      -A lot of the time in meetings you can’t just type notes on your laptop because it is too distracting/loud to others (or at least, I have seen where people were told to just take notes by hand because the typing was distracting; that’s very much a “you have no control over your boss’s preferences” thing).

      There are a ton of other things, but the idea that people don’t handwrite stuff as adults is patently ABSURD.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        There are approximately a zillion instances where you need to at least be able to sign your name. And just as many where you might need to be able to read someone else’s handwriting.

        Adding on to this example–there are times in adult life where you need to fill out forms. Electronically-fillable forms are more common, but there are still times when you need to fill out forms by hand (at work or in your personal life). And that’s more than just “a few squiggles that counts as a signature.” It could be a date, an address, a company name, a doctor’s name, etc. Those things all have to be legible for the people reading/processing the form.

        I think Jaunty Banana Hat I’s list is a good one, and it could be helpful to share it with your students so they don’t think “Miss Harriet is just telling us handwriting is important, but I’m going to carry my laptop with me everywhere I go when I’m an adult.”

        Reply ↓
    17. CheeseCroissant*

      I’m a scientist. We still keep hand-written lab notebooks. You also have to label solutions in the lab by hand and many labs do not have label printers.

      It’s very necessary for someone else to be able to decipher your handwriting.

      Reply ↓
    18. Charlotte Lucas*

      I was recently at an all-day in-person meeting where we broke out into groups and notes were written on poster-size paper. So, yes, in the workplace, you might need to write by hand. Legibly enough for others to read.

      Reply ↓
    19. Bast*

      The only times I can think of in recent memory where I *had* to physically write something it was for a check for an oil delivery because their credit card machine was down. While I have a *choice* to write many things if I want to, most thing have become so digital now that if I didn’t feel like writing something down, I could type it up. (FWIW, I usually have a mix of both). Even in meetings, there are a decent number of people who come in armed with IPads and laptops so they are not physically writing notes. I *can* physically write down notes in a notepad when reviewing work, etc., but again, I don’t *have* to — a Word document does just as well. Other than the check incident, I am having a difficult time thinking of a time in recent memory where I had no choice and absolutely had to handwrite something.

      Now, if we’re talking about signing my name, I have to sign my name all the time, however, many people have barely legible signatures, so it doesn’t really make a difference.

      Reply ↓
    20. Policy Wonk*

      If one has a security clearance and attends meetings in a secure space they cannot bring in electronic devices. So yes, they need to be able to write as they will likely need to sign in, take notes, etc. (If they work in a secure pace, they will have electronics assigned to the space – they cannot bring in their own.) So I think it is good for them to continue to work on their handwriting. Not sure I would make them write long essays if they aren’t accustomed to it, but you could start with having them answer short questions and increase it over time.

      Aside from the classified issue, I agree with another poster that it is good practice to always have a notebook and pen in hand in case one gets an unexpected assignment – jot it down so it won’t be forgotten.

      Reply ↓
    21. shaw of dorset*

      Yes, I work in a laboratory and we do fill out paperwork by hand, including things that are later scanned into and “read” by a computer which means that at the very least numbers need to be legible.

      Personally I think it’s always good to have a skill, whether you’ll need it or not.

      Reply ↓
    22. deesse877*

      I teach at the college level. I think it’s better for college students to have cursive (mostly because we know for a fact that handwritten notes conduce much better to learning, and being able to write fluently, at the pace of speech, conduces to note-taking), but seriously no more than one in twenty does now. I also think that just enforcing handwriting use is not going to really move the needle; they’d need actual direct instruction, like the chalkboard with the three chalks on a rack to make lines–to significantly improve.

      It’s going the way of poetry memorization and using a sewing machine–could def still be useful and enlightening, but no one is willing to invest in it.

      Interestingly, only about a third of my students can touch-type either. That might be a good compromise?

      Reply ↓
    23. Generic Name*

      I do have a notebook that I jot notes down on at work, but other than that, I rarely write. And my handwritten notes are only because it’s my preference. I have two thoughts on the handwriting. I think “because I, the teacher, cannot read your writing and therefore cannot evaluate your work” is a plenty good reason to tell students they must write legibly. I don’t think you need to come up with a zinger reason from a hypothetical future (I’m sure you remember math teachers telling students that they won’t be carrying a calculator in their pockets all the time, right?) that may or may not come true. That said, keep in mind that some students who are unable to write legibly have disabilities, so I suggest double checking any IEPs or 504 plans you have for students to ensure you are accommodating those students as legally required. Some other students might also have disabilities that affect handwriting but don’t have IEPs or 504s or at least they might not have specific handwriting accommodations. I guess what I’m saying is it’s fine to tell students to write stuff out by hand, but please be flexible in case some students just physically can’t and don’t assume all of them are just lazy good-for-nothings.

      Reply ↓
    24. Hazel*

      Rarely. Most people use a laptop or phone for note taking. But also, should hand writing be the focus of your teaching at high school level? I would have thought thinking and subject knowledge would be key. I don’t recall being hassled about hand writing style after grade 6. If they need to hand write they will figure it out … or choose jobs that don’t require it.

      Reply ↓
    25. EMP*

      It’s very common as a software engineer to write on whiteboards when brainstorming at meetings, but that’s something they can figure out later if they need it. I’d focus on *your* needs here – is the bad handwriting worse than grading on screens? Can you let them type long essays but encourage handwriting on shorter homework for your own sake?

      Reply ↓
    26. Regulated*

      I actually am required to write legibly at my job all the time! At least twice a day I go through a stack of paperwork to give technicians directives, and they must be handwritten. I work in a very specific regulated industry, but we ask how your handwriting is when we hire.

      Reply ↓
    27. Boss Scaggs*

      I don’t think you’re going to improve a high school student’s penmanship by having them write a few tests, whether handwriting is useful or not. I’d probably just go with the times on this one

      Reply ↓
    28. Wordnerd*

      I work in a college tutoring center, and engineering students are still required to hand write assignments on engineering paper. Students still take quizzes and tests by hand and even just numbers need to be legible when written out by hand. As an instructor, small in-class activities of just putting notes on notecards or post-it notes require basically legible handwriting. I agree that it’s not about cursive, but just basically legible handwriting is still needed.

      Reply ↓
  52. Working under my down comforter*

    Hi all. How do you tell a former colleague but now a LinkedIn connection to not share your current occupation with others? She and I used to work for a company where I was singled out and bullied by others. She never faced anything like it. I’ve blocked these bullies but I think she is connected to them via LinkedIn or Facebook. What should I say without making waves or sounding fearful or odd?

    Reply ↓
    1. ShazamIT*

      Is it worth staying connected to this person if it’s just going to stress you out? FWIW I don’t think coworker bullies are likely to cyberstalk you, it’s usually more about establishing a pecking order in the workplace.

      Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      You have several options:

      1. Don’t post your updated role on LinkedIn. It’s pretty normal for people to not update LinkedIn right away. This is the most drama-free option.
      2. You could try to have that conversation if you think this person will be receptive. If this is someone that does a good job respecting privacy, then you can say “hey, you know I don’t have a good relationship with X or Y, so in case they ask, can you please not give them any updates about me?” This only works if she is already proven to be very respectful of other’s boundaries. If you think that she would ignore this (even out of good intentions), go to Option 1.
      3. Block her as well. This might feel extreme, and it really depends on how bad the bullying was. If you have reason to think that your bullies will seek you out at your new place of employment, then take the necessary measures to protect yourself. A half-safe person is not safe; if she would enable the bullying (again, even if she does it out of good intentions), she is not safe.

      If you choose option 1, it will sound fearful and odd. If this is a situation where you have something to fear, it’s okay to sound fearful! But if you don’t think that your bullies will try to follow you and this is more a request because you don’t want them thinking about you, it will come across oddly. Many bullies will simply move on to a new target; as the saying go, the tree remembers but the axe forgets.

      Reply ↓
    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Is she actively doing it, or are you wanting to tell her this pre-emptively? Are you concerned that the bullies will continue to make your life difficult at your new job?

      I second the question of whether or not you need to stay connected to this person. Unless she’s your former boss and you want to keep in contact for reference purposes, it’s possibly worth disconnecting.

      I’d also change my profile’s visibility to “1st-degree connections” only so that only the people you’ve actively connected with can actually see it. That won’t prevent her from seeing it if you choose to remain connected, but it will stop any bullies you missed in your blocking spree from seeing your profile via hers somehow.

      Reply ↓
      1. Working under my down comforter*

        I mentioned to her that I don’t talk to many people from our former company anymore and that I don’t share details. She told me that she’d be happy to speak with me over the phone about it. It’s just under 20 years ago but the bully actually sent a nasty email about me to the new employer that I went to work for. Because I landed the job that she also applied for.

        Reply ↓
        1. ferrina*

          Did your new employer take it seriously? Because any employer worth their salt will recognize that email as the sour grapes that it is.

          Reply ↓
        2. Caramel & Cheddar*

          It sounds like at least one of your bullies has already found you and could very well tell the others, independent of the person you still talk to, so I don’t know that there’s much to say to her? I would definitely not take the phone call (this is so unnecessary!!), but also I’d just distance myself given how long it’s been. I can see why it might feel like you’re protecting your peace by telling her not to tell anyone about you, but honestly it sounds like that horse has already left the barn without her involvement.

          Also, holding a twenty year grudge is wild, so my sympathies that this person tried to screw things up with your current employer.

          Reply ↓
  53. Considering Career Change*

    Have you left a job or a field you loved for more money? How did that go? Did anything surprise you about the process or your new role? How did it affect your overall life satisfaction? Please share!

    Reply ↓
    1. Gingy*

      I left a field for more money. I don’t make significantly more now but there’s a lot more earning potential that I can work towards. They are sort of related but I’d say the field I left was more fun and creative, but the risk of layoff was high and the industry is having a hard time staying relevant with new technology (I moved to the new technology side). I miss it sometimes but just try to stay connected to it in other ways. Moving on was the right choice financially and for career growth. What surprised me was how much less chaotic it is (at least my workplace, but maybe it’s because everyone isn’t frantically trying to keep the industry afloat). Life satisfaction is better because I can pay my bills and debt, but the job itself is kinda boring.

      Reply ↓
    2. Paris Geller*

      Not quite the same, but I left sort of a subsection of a field for a different subsection that I thought would be boring (think-moved from teapot painting to teapot glazing) for more money. I thought I would get to be less creative, but it would be worth it because I was vastly underpaid. Turns out I was wrong and I love working in teapot glazing more than I ever did in teapot painting! I’m also at a much healthier organization, though, so it’s hard to say what is truly responsible for my increased job satisfaction. After three years, I’m now making over twice as make as I was when I left that original job as well.

      Reply ↓
  54. Pam*

    Want a second opinion on this situation-

    I’ve worked with a certain small business for years, using their services once or twice a year. Let’s say it’s a llama shearer. The company is owned by Alex. I’ve spoken to Alex a few times but never met them in person. Alex oversees employees who do the actual sheering. Sam has been the shearer that I’ve worked with. The last few times I worked with Sam, I’ve gotten increasingly disappointed. Things like Sam not confirming the shearing time until I reach out to them or Alex, Sam not updating me (common in the actual practice), Sam arriving at a different time than they said they would (in a service where part of what I pay for is the appointment time), or even Sam leaving my house unlocked when they returned my llama and not telling me that they didn’t lock up (Sam blamed my door and implied that they could have refused to work with me given that they struggled to lock my door). The job was technically done, but enough was off that I was planning to stop using their services the next time my llama needed to be sheared.

    Then out of the blue I get a message from Alex saying that Sam is no longer with the company, and Alex is working on transferring Sam’s former clients to other groomers. It was quite professional. A week later, I get a text from Sam. Sam claims that Alex fired them because Sam didn’t deposit their paycheck right away and Alex didn’t notice and overdrew their checking account, and Alex wrongly blamed Sam. Sam wanted to continue to work for me independently.

    I didn’t respond to Sam, and I wasn’t sure what to do? Do I pass the message on to Alex? Leave it alone?

    Reply ↓
  55. Morgi Corgi*

    This is something that happened a while ago, and I’m still not sure I did the right thing.

    I was in a Zoom meeting where the president was present (it’s important to note I was just a lowly secretary at the time) and he referred to something as being the r-slur used for people with intellectual abilities. I immediately spoke up and asked “Excuse me? What was that?” (my tone wasn’t rude, more like I must have misunderstood what of and he immediately apologized and went back and corrected himself.

    I’m someone who naturally speaks up when someone says or does something offensive, so I just automatically said something, but even a year later I’m still kicking myself for correcting the president of the organization IN A ZOOM MEETING. Should I have kept quiet since it wasn’t really my place to correct someone so much higher up than me? It’s still one of those things I think about late at night where I wonder why I did that.

    Reply ↓
    1. ShazamIT*

      Generally don’t embarrass your bosses in front of others. Correct people in private. You’re not wrong. But you don’t really want them to associate you with that embarrassed feeling.

      Reply ↓
      1. Morgi Corgi*

        Thankfully I don’t think it made him think negatively of me, or at least he didn’t act like it, because he later praised me to my boss and mentor, and put one of my suggestions (gender neutral bathrooms) in to effect.

        But obviously not everyone would react that way, so thank you.

        Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Given that he apologized and corrected himself, I don’t think you should be losing sleep over this!

      If you hadn’t spoken up in the moment (I’m always stunned into silence in these scenarios, so kudos to you), it would still have been something to follow up with someone about, e.g. your own boss, HR, your DEI committee, etc. because that’s inappropriate and unacceptable in general, let alone in an all-staff meeting.

      Reply ↓
      1. Morgi Corgi*

        Interestingly it was during a DEI meeting (I was elected co-chair of DEI for our branch, a volunteer position) when he said it!

        Reply ↓
        2. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Oh my god, no! You definitely, absolutely had standing to say it in that meeting for two reasons: 1) it’s the DEI MEETING, and 2) in your DEI meetings, DEI meetings are only successful if people at all levels of the organization feel empowered to share/correct/whatever. That said, I know that’s easier said than done, and that’s why upper management are often encouraged not to be on the committees themselves, but I think you were 100% fine here.

          Reply ↓
    3. Yes And*

      I did exactly that with the Secretary of our Board. The difference is that I was in the middle of a presentation, which he interrupted with an expletive meant to convey that he disagreed with my characterization of the company’s past actions. I said, in as mild and pleasant tone as I could, “Sorry, Fergus, I didn’t catch your question?” He immediately backpedaled and claimed he was driving and cursing at another driver (he was not driving).

      That was months ago, and there has been no backlash or negative consequences. I felt pretty good about it, honestly. And so should you.

      Reply ↓
    4. Pocket Mouse*

      Honestly, kudos for speaking up, even if it felt automatic. I think more people should—and need to, as the social climate changes. There are environments where it’s not wise or safe to, in terms of personal repercussions, but it sounds like it works out fine for you and had a positive effect on the discussion (and possibly the president’s word choice going forward). I guarantee there were others on the call who were happy to hear some pushback on what he said.

      Reply ↓
      1. ferrina*

        I love that you spoke up! Grown adults know that that word is a slur (especially if they are the president of a company). Your reaction was the normal one, you were polite, and you set the bar at not tolerating slurs. I guarantee that there was at least one other person in that meeting who is so happy you said something and wish that they could be like you.

        (though as Pocket Mouse said, don’t kick yourself if you don’t have the presence of mind or don’t feel safe saying something in the moment)

        Reply ↓
    5. Productivity Pigeon*

      I’m kinda torn on this.

      On one hand, speaking up is so important and you doing so made a difference, he apologized and pivoted.
      It shows that small, fairly neutral corrections can work really well.

      (I’ve found that most people I’ve encountered do want to do the right thing and that if they are approached under the assumption that they are a reasonable adult who made a mistake, will listen to feedback. Keyword being “people I personally have encountered”. My experiences might not be transferable to other contexts.)

      On the other hand, as you say, it could also have turned out really badly.

      It would probably have been smarter not to say anything in the moment but I don’t like saying that.

      It’s a difficult issue and I can see why you still ponder it.

      Reply ↓
    6. Cordelia*

      You definitely did the right thing, in the moral sense. In the “getting ahead at work” sense, probably not – it worked out ok this time but it might not have done.
      If you hadn’t said something, you might today be kicking yourself that you sat there and let someone get away with saying something offensive, purely because of their status – I think that would be a worse place to be in.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ginger Baker*

        This 100%. I once had to speak up to some attorneys discussing trans folks outside my cube – not even anything overtly offensive but as the parent of a nonbinary child, I just could not continue to listen to what was being said…so I interjected, pretty loudly, and told them that I couldn’t tell them what to believe but as a parent of someone similar I found the entire discussion problematic and if they needed to continue discussing this, please walk to one of their offices and do it there so I would not have to hear it.

        I don’t think my heartbeat dropped under 150 for the next two hours and I had a whole bunch of Fear Sweat, but I’d much rather have that then regret that I could have said something and didn’t.

        Reply ↓
      2. Morgi Corgi*

        You make a good point. I’d much rather stand by what I think is right, even if it holds me back at work (and honestly I wouldn’t want to work somewhere where that kind of language is okay!).

        Reply ↓
        1. Hazel*

          I 100% regret not speaking up about something years ago and get the ick thinking about it. You shouldn’t get the ick for doing the right thing in a polite way (question not statement).

          Reply ↓
    7. All Natural Gas Man*

      I’m also someone who tends to speak up, (but this is something I’ve had to practice, rather than coming naturally). For me, I would rather speak up and deal with an angry boss and some work consequences than keep silent and be part of the problem. SO MANY harmful things could be corrected if people had the strength and courage to speak up. While I’ve probably limited some of my own upward mobility, I’ve also managed to effect some pretty amazing cultural changes in my organization because I will ask uncomfortable and necessary questions.

      There’s not a one-size-fits-all answer, but if we only “stick to our place,” what is the world we’re creating? On a grander scale, what atrocities could have been prevented if more people spoke up “out of turn”? Speaking up about small things gives us the practice and the familiarity to speak up about big things. It also gives others the courage to speak up.

      On a broader scale, it might be worth asking yourself if you feel that the workplace status quo is more valuable than speaking up for others.

      Reply ↓
      1. All Natural Gas Man*

        Which is a long-winded way of say, you did the right thing. Doing the right thing is often hard and scary but speaking up almost certainly meant the world to someone else in the meeting. Thank you. It means the world to me, an internet stranger.

        Reply ↓
  56. Red Plaid Bunny*

    I kind of understand. Depends on the issue. I was offered a position supporting nonprofits that support abortion. I don’t mind and had once worked at an abortion clinic as a student. My partner was opposed so I turned it down even though it paid more than the position I took.

    Then they overturned Roe v. Wade. I support a woman’s right to choose but I’m glad that I wasn’t in that fray, you know? It just wasn’t something I wanted to be my day-to-day.

    Don’t mean to start a debate here. Just sometimes the single issue does matter, is polarizing, and with this political climate . . . well, you said it yourself, “Likely to become more so in coming years.” So I guess if you take it, you’re going in eyes open!

    Reply ↓
  57. NotGreener*

    So I’ve realized that my company just isn’t very good at anything, really. Neither our actual business of “making teapots” nor any of our business support like HR and IT seem overly effective. I’m kind of content to ride it out at the moment (enjoing my status as “highly respected IC” and our competitive salaries) until something better comes along or we fold, because honestly the grass probably isn’t greener, but am I silly for thinking that?

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      You’re fine. Your personal growth will be limited (it’s hard to reach your best when surrounded by mild incompetence), but as long as you aren’t stagnant, you’re fine. It doesn’t sound like you’re being screwed over by staying. There’s nothing wrong with not “fulfilling your highest potential.” Leave when you feel like leaving.

      Reply ↓
    2. Productivity Pigeon*

      The good thing is that you can change your mind at any time!

      Just because you decide to stay for now doesn’t mean you can’t change your mind tomorrow or in a year.

      So I say enjoy it while you can, but keep an open mind. This is a joyful situation! :) You like where you are so you don’t desperately have to find a new job, but you leave if something awesome comes along!

      Reply ↓
  58. DancinProf*

    Thoughts on whether to consider candidates who are obviously overqualified for a role? I’m hiring a new administrative assistant, not attracting a large candidate pool overall, but getting résumés from folks who could legitimately be (let’s say) Assistant Regional Manager rather than Assistant TO the Regional Manager. I know it’s frustrating to be ruled out because you’re overqualified but I worry about long-term satisfaction in the job (at best) or even someone trying to muscle in on my job (at worst). Do I give benefit of the doubt at least for an initial phone screen, considering I don’t have a ton of people to choose from?

    Reply ↓
    1. Slippers*

      I would definitely give them an opportunity to address it in the phone screen! They may be looking to step back into something less stressful.

      Reply ↓
    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Yes, just ask about that. You might find someone like me who has tired of the rat race before hitting retirement age.

      Reply ↓
    3. Fluffy Fish*

      I think a phone screen is reasonable. It’s not going to take much time and you don’t have a lot of candidates. You can absolutely ask them why they are interested in the position when they are significantly over qualified.

      There’s lots of people who want a less stressful less responsible more set hours role for lots of reasons but family responsibilities are a big one.

      Reply ↓
    4. Cordelia*

      yes, give them the benefit of the doubt and use the phone screen to dig into their motivations and your concerns about them being overqualified. There are all sorts of perfectly valid reasons why someone might apply for a job that, on paper, they are overqualified for.
      Longterm satisfaction in the job might be an issue, but then it might be for anyone, you can’t guarantee that the person you hire will love the job and want to be there forever. And the idea that someone might “muscle in” on your job seems a little farfetched tbh – you’re the manager, you can stop them!

      Reply ↓
    5. ferrina*

      A few things to consider:

      -How overqualified are they?
      -What do they say in their cover letter? Why are they interested in this position?
      -How long do you need someone to stay in the role to make it worth your time? If you think this person will only stick around for six months, but that’s an acceptable trade-off, then move forward.
      -What does their resume say about how long they stay in roles?

      Sort candidates into High Priority, Mid Priority, Low Priority and Nope. Call the High Priority people first. If you have enough good candidates there, no need to move on. If you don’t get enough, then move the Mid Priority. If you don’t have many candidates, how much are you really losing by spending 30 minutes on a handful of phone screens?

      Reply ↓
      1. Kay*

        This! I would start with the candidates who address it in a cover letter, then move down the list. I would also ask a few more probing questions aimed at finding out why they left their last role, what they liked about their last role, what their ideal workplace looks like, what it is about this role that interests them, where they see themselves long term, etc. to give you an idea of whether they truly will be someone who wants this role (if them staying longer term is important to you).

        Reply ↓
    6. Yes And*

      I’m guessing from your user name here that you’re in the performing arts/academia – both fields that attract people more for their passion than for their earning potential. You may find there’s *more* long-term job satisfaction from someone who has demonstrated they care about your particular field than from someone who just wants any admin role.

      Reply ↓
    7. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think since it’s an admin assistant role, I’d compare the average life cycle of people in that role to how long you think someone overqualified might stay. I used to hire a lot of admin folks and if I got two years from them, I considered that good, so “They might not stick around long term” wouldn’t necessarily have been an issue in that scenario.

      As others have said, I think it’s also worth asking about in a phone screen. They might be overqualified on paper, but if they’re looking to change sectors, reduce their stress, or something else entirely, they may be fine with the role.

      Reply ↓
    8. Honoria Lucasta*

      At least give them the benefit of the phone screen, as long as you think they have other qualifications that would make them suited for the job. I worked as a receptionist during the last two years of my PhD because it was an easy job that didn’t follow me home, vaguely adjacent to my field but not directly in it. I got healthcare and retirement benefits and the commute was literally 7 minutes on a bad day. They asked me in the interview why someone why my qualifications was applying, and I just bluntly said “I need to pay the bills while I write my dissertation, and when I start applying for jobs I don’t want to be desperate — this will give me stable ground to stand on while I look for something else.” I also told them that realistically I could give them two years, which ended up being exactly what they got.

      There were days when I found myself stuffing envelopes and thinking “I’m so overqualified for this job”. There were also times when I got a lot of job satisfaction from doing an EXCELLENT job at something that could have been just OK. Because I was “overqualified”, I had the ability and interest to really improve and streamline some of the processes we used at the desk to mesh better with what everyone else needed and used.

      Reply ↓
    9. WantonSeedStitch*

      I think a phone screen is good. Then you can say, “This is something of an entry-level position, and you’d be doing work like [duties]. It’s a little unusual for someone with your experience to apply for a role like this. Can I ask why you’re interested in this position?” Sometimes people are looking to step back from a more intense role after having a child. Sometimes they want to coast to retirement in a less-stressful job. Also, admin roles aren’t often super long term. For someone earlier in their career, they could be considering it a stepping stone to something higher. If you’ve already had higher roles, you’re making a deliberate choice to go back to a lower level.

      Reply ↓
    10. Productivity Pigeon*

      Definitely give them a phone screen!

      There are loads of reasons why someone might want to “move down”.

      Reply ↓
    11. Anon for This*

      Screen them! I am approaching retirement age, and I would love to do something like this when I retire. I will have a pension/401(k), so don’t need a high paying job.

      Reply ↓
      1. pally*

        Bet you are not prone to a whole lot of job hopping either. That should be of value to any employer!

        It just amazes me the assumptions folks make about why a candidate probably won’t want the job. I’d found the ideal lab job but was not hired because my current job title is “supervisor.” They were concerned about how the step backwards taking a lab job would affect my career. Yet this was not discussed with me during the interview. It was told to me by the HR contact after they rejected me. Gee, thanks for the concern. Maybe let me worry about my career!

        Reply ↓
    12. saskia*

      I’m currently at “”director”” level making an early career manager’s salary. Thank you, inflated tech startup title! I’m leaving soon and looking for all sorts of roles, including ones that have ‘assistant’ in the title. Don’t assume you know a person’s motives, current salary, etc. Many are pushed up the career ladder into management when they never wanted to manage anyone; see the many letters AAM gets about this very subject.

      Are the applicants writing cover letters? They should address it there. Or you can address it in the phone screen.

      I know an HR director who just moved companies and went down to a generalist role at his new job. He said it was difficult to convince the hiring team he wanted a “lesser” role, but he stood firm because he knew he no longer wanted the level of stress and responsibility he once had. He’s sooo much happier now and loves his job!

      Reply ↓
    13. Csethiro Ceredin*

      We once hired a qualified lawyer for an entry-level customer service position. She said in the cover letter that she had kids and wanted a local job with predictable hours, which made total sense. She ended up staying for 10 years and became a department manager.

      Not every application allows for cover letters, so especially if yours doesn’t I’d do a screening and give them a chance to explain their interest.

      Reply ↓
    14. Boss Scaggs*

      I’d say it depends on your candidate pool – if you’ve already got plenty of strong candidates who fit the profile, you don’t really need to stretch the requirements. However if you’re lacking enough good resumes now, might as well do what you need to get more in the pipeline

      Reply ↓
  59. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Is there a recommendation for how long after a leave it’s professional to wait before moving on or retiring?

    I’ve recently returned to work after an extended medical leave, and I’m finding that I have zero patience left for the chaos.

    Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think it depends on how long the leave was, but also I don’t think it actually matters. Life happens when it happens and does so on its own timeline. If you want to retire a month after returning from a medical leave, then that’s when you want to retire!

      Reply ↓
    3. Riley*

      Who cares? You are retiring.

      I fondly remember the head of the machine shop at a previous position. He hadn’t been on vacation in years, went on vacation, and loved it so much he gave notice the day he got back. My hero (for the notice, not for the not going on vacation for years).

      Reply ↓
    4. MissBliss*

      Go ahead and move on or retire. You learned some things on your leave, makes your perspective on the work different, it’s time for someone else to step in, etc. Congratulations!

      Reply ↓
  60. Anon in Higher Ed*

    I am a high level, individual contributor staff that reports to a faculty member. My boss has insisted to me many times they are not interested in an admin position. I stumbled across (truly, was not snooping) a non-private calendar item for them in which they are asking a former colleague for advice (in confidence) because they are applying for a deanship at a university halfway across the country.

    A few questions for your consideration…

    1) I don’t tell my boss I saw this, right? Not even as a “hey – you may want to make that private” heads up? (To be clear – in the body of the meeting it specifically says “between you and me”)
    2) Due to extenuating circumstances….winter, this place (the country, the state, the university) being what it is ::gestures wildly::, I am fragile like a bomb. I am fully aware that my boss has every right to want to move up in their career. I know, rationally, that a move to this university would be good for their personal life. I know that we are so far away from this being a reality. And yet, I am struggling to not see every interaction I have with them through the lens of… what, betrayal? Abandonment?
    3) My job is secure, well compensated, and my project is wildly successful. But I feel nothing toward it. I am not excited for the milestones we are achieving or the accolades and awards we are achieving. I increasingly want to run away into the woods, but I carry the insurance for my family and am on track for a not-insignificant retirement benefit. But retirement is ~30 years away. Commiseration? Advice?

    Reply ↓
    1. Productivity Pigeon*

      You definitely shouldn’t say anything to your boss or to anyone else!

      Would you mind clarifying something?
      Would you lose your job if your boss quits? I can’t quite tell from your comment.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon in Higher Ed*

        It is very unlikely I would lose my job as our project is geographically bound and they wouldn’t take it with them when they go. I don’t know who would replace them as my boss/faculty leader of the project.

        Reply ↓
        1. Productivity Pigeon*

          Okay, thank you for answering that!

          It IS hard to lose a colleague or boss you like working with. Getting to know the ways and quirks of a new one can be tricky and takes energy.
          Maybe you have so little extra energy/spoons at the moment that any changes seem insurmountable? Don’t rock the boat and so on.

          Or there might be issues at work that are causing you to feel like this but that you’re not aware of?
          Would you consider talking to your doctor or a therapist about this? That might help you to identify what is making you feel this way and what to do about it?

          Reply ↓
    2. Pentapus*

      1- say absolutely nothing.
      2,3- depression + golden handcuffs. Frankly, it’s above the internet’s pay grade. I can offer commiseration on #3, though, but I can’t tell you how to deal. that’s me as well, but with less great retirement benefits and less long to go. I grind through each day, try to focus on hobbies, and try to take some pride in supporting my family.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon in Higher Ed*

        Yes, 100% on the depression/golden handcuffs combo. I appreciate the commiseration though sorry to hear you are in a similar situation!

        I do have a wonderful side project on the horizon with an organization that’s very important to me. Giving that some focus should get me through to at least spring break.

        Reply ↓
        1. Pentapus*

          my personal advice would be to see what kind of skills you can develop to jump to a different employer or change jobs when you just can’t anymore. but sometimes I count my time day by day, and sometimes minute by minute.

          Reply ↓
      2. ferrina*

        Seconding all of this.

        For 2, is therapy an option? If you can afford it, doing some short-term therapy can help you process your feelings around this transition.

        Reply ↓
  61. haunted by orange cat demons*

    A few years ago I had a weight issue. I talked to a nutritionist, changed my lifestyle, and lost some weight. My body decided it was okay to lose some weight but it has a limit that exercise and low calories doesn’t seem to be able to get over. So now I am looking into surgery to remove excess fat since I have maintained my lower weight for over a year. Does anyone have experience handling this at work in terms of having to be out of office and coming back looking thinner? I did receive many comments about my initial weight loss so I feel it might happen.

    Reply ↓
    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      “I’m going to be out for a medical procedure.”
      *returning*
      “Gee, you look like you’ve lost weight!”
      “Yeah, I have. [change subject]”
      “Did you get lipo or something?”
      “No offense, I don’t really want to go into detail on my medical issues. [change subject]”

      Reply ↓
  62. Lurking Librarian*

    I have a friend in a sticky work situation who I suggested this site to! However, I’ve been looking for posts that cover similar situations to show her, and I’m having trouble finding any, though I know I’ve read them before, any one remember ones that I can send her?

    She’s finishing her PhD program and her boss in the lab is a huge jerk. Lots of microaggressions, and fully made her stay an extra semester when she should have graduated to recruit new students for the lab. I tell her to put her foot down, but she says she needs his reference, there is no one close who carries as much weight as his, and that’s part of why their PhD program is so toxic.

    Any similar posts you can think of? Needing/wanting to appease a crappy person in order to keep a good reference?

    Reply ↓
    1. Reba*

      Not to discourage you, but your friend is right and your advice isn’t really applicable to the weird world of academia. Her supervisor sounds particularly nasty, but deference to one’s PhD supervisor is broadly expected and, as your friend is calculating, necessary to one’s future.

      I don’t know if the Grad Cafe forums are still very active, but she could look there for some ideas and support.

      Here, I can remember quite a few letters about how to quit gracefully, but that’s not what you’re looking for really.

      Reply ↓
        1. Lurking Librarian*

          A comment like that is perfect, thank you! Sad to hear there isn’t a magic answer I can give her to get her out of it. I’ll recommend Grad Cafe and keep an eye out for similar “how to deal with it when you can’t leave” type advice.

          Reply ↓
    2. Coffee*

      Sadly it’s not that simple in most PhD lab programs. they can try talking to the graduate advisor or the senior member of their committee (if it’s not their advisor) but they need to be careful* because in many fields the advisor plays a huge role in helping you get your job or postdoc
      sometimes the more senior members can help The Graduate advisor see reason ( as was the case for me when my advisor tried to prevent my graduating)
      * I am putting this asterisk here because I see you mentioned microaggressions which makes this a lot worse than just a typical crappy advisor. unfortunately there may be no good solution. without more details of the rest of the department I can’t speak to the benefits of calling out the advisor. your friend will need to weigh the pros and cons. sending your friend the best of wishes.

      Reply ↓
      1. Coffee*

        that should say sometimes the more senior members or The Graduate advisor can help the primary advisor see reason and get the student out. how that impacts the relationship and the future references depends on a lot of factors. I got lucky and our graduate advisor helped me get out with my PhD and I got a job. my brother-in-law got no support from The Graduate advisor and ended up leaving with his Masters despite having completed more than enough to defend the dissertation because no one would stand up to his advisor

        Reply ↓
  63. Donor communications*

    [I think this is work-related, but if not please delete and I will repost tomorrow]

    I recently joined a new young donor group for a local performing arts group and had a weird interaction with the donor coordinator that I wanted to get a gut check on. I was recently invited to a donor event and had a total brain fart and couldn’t think how to respond so I said in the email “I am RSVP-ing to this event.” So not super-clear, since a “no” is also a part of an RSVP. But the response I got from the donor coordinator was “so you are coming I guess? great” When I confirmed and apologized for not being clear, I got a similar response.

    I don’t want to be like “I’m a PATRON OF THE ARTS and deserve punctuation,” but that’s not particularly polished, right? The reason I’m stuck on it is that my boss is on the board of this organization and sought my input when they were starting this group, and so I’m wondering if I should mention it to her or if I’m blowing this out of proportion. My worry is that this coordinator will be roped into helping with the bigger/older donors, who I know from my boss are very particular (they got mad when the org had to move performances to a location two blocks away due to renovations!) and I could see an email like that setting someone off.

    Reply ↓
    1. WorkerDrone*

      “so you are coming I guess? great”

      I read this response as snarky and rude. To me, this goes beyond lack of polish or punctuation into outright unprofessional.

      I’d say something. I get that your email was a little unclear, but, if I had gotten a response like that I would probably never donate again.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        I had the same reaction as you. It’s not difficult to type out “just to be clear, can you confirm that you are RSVP-ing yes and we will see you on [event date]?” (I’m not in a donor-relations field so that might lack polish, but it is also snark-free!)

        Reply ↓
    2. You Go Glen Coco*

      “I’m a PATRON OF THE ARTS and deserve punctuation,”

      THIS SENT ME

      Also yes mention it to your boss. You shouldn’t have to have an “in” to be treated with courtesy and respect.

      Reply ↓
    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Is there an opportunity to provide general feedback about the donor event that you could sandwich this into? E.g. “Since this was our first donor event for the Young Donor Group, I wanted to share some observations. I thought X was went really smoothly, and Y was really well received. I did notice that written communication with the staff was a bit unpolished, which I was surprised by. I wanted to mention it in case the coordinator is working with any of the bigger donors, who I know we like to handle a certain with and with a certain level of professionalism.” And then offer to share the emails if need be.

      Reply ↓
    4. MissBliss*

      I think you’re feeling like this is too little/petty to mention, but you’re right that if the wrong person were to receive that message (or just a dozen people who feel exactly as you do!), it could have serious consequences for the group. Lots of dealing with donors is rolling your eyes at something and then sending a chipper response like “Hi DC, we’d love to have you! I just wanted to confirm that you were RSVPing yes? If so, looking forward to seeing you on XX/XX. Sincerely, MissBliss”. It doesn’t have to be super formal, but it does have to be friendly.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        I’m curious – for this specific population, would it be a benefit or a detriment to have a simple RSVP website link? “Click here for Yes and here for No”.

        I agree that donor communications is a touchy subject! But wondering if there’s a way to avoid the whole communications loop in the first place.

        Reply ↓
  64. Pink Geek*

    Does your company have a website that has lots of content but not much to do? Please share — I need to expand my job hunt!

    I’m casually looking around for a new job and my specialty is working on templates for large sites with a community who manages the content through a CMS. I got started in higher-ed and then moved to a site that did technical documentation for developers. There’s nothing in my area in higher-ed right now so I need to go further afield.

    For any techies: I’m front-of-the-front end. HTML, CSS, performance, accessibility, etc. and I’m disheartened by the number of “full stack” jobs

    Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There are plenty of websites that use a CMS on the back end, in lots of different industries. Appliance manufacturers maintain all their manuals, service bulletins, etc in a CMS.

      For smaller & newer companies, it’s better to have a developer do the CMS work, because they will understand the downstream database implications as things are constantly changing. I think you’re looking for some place with a more mature product, not in active development.

      Reply ↓
    3. All Natural Gas Man*

      You could look at working with the federal government if you’re in the US? I’m no techie, but I feel like a lot of the public lands agencies need someone who can help with the “front-end” part of websites (take a look at the BLM or USFS or even NPS websites.) I guess any jobs there would all be on usajobs?

      Reply ↓
    4. TraceMark*

      Libraries? Not sure because I don’t understand all that you are doing, but your requirements sound like they would fit for a job the library I work at is hiring for, so…maybe try those?

      Reply ↓
  65. Dee Dee*

    Ugh we re-orged in November. The VP I report to was realigned to a “new” team that is really an existing team that has been pulled out of a particular part of the org to centralize its function. Many of my VP’s other reports have also been moved around as part of an overall process of consolidation. Now her team, including me, is quite small, especially as compared to the business unit we’ve just been mashed into. Cue a lot of discussions about our role within this group which to me probably should have been worked out before they re-orged us?

    Anyway, all of this has a couple of us worried that we’re going to get made redundant soon, too, and so I’m not in a super happy place. I think I could contribute a lot more but my mandate was never super clear—I did a lot of work on behalf of my VP—and I’m feeling just a bit worried about things right now which makes it hard to focus.

    This is also the second re-org in a year. I guess the one last year didn’t take or something. I don’t know how we’re supposed to get stuff done when they keep shifting the terrain on us. I really want a new job and there’s absolutely nothing out there. I used to be holding out hope of finding a fully remote position but I think that ship’s sailed at this point. Sigh.

    Reply ↓
    1. Pink Geek*

      If you’re looking for sympathy, you have it. That sounds awful.

      If you’re looking for things you can do… meet with people in the bigger unit. Especially people who are related to the kind of work you want to do more of. Look for small favours you can do that won’t interfere with your official work. It’s partially about being a familiar friendly face and partially about shifting your role into more of what you want to do.

      And keep your resume up to date Sending lucky vibes.

      Reply ↓
  66. All Natural Gas Man*

    I have a very low stakes yet embarassing question: What are some fragrance-free options to de-stinkify my office? I’ve had to switch up my diet and while I feel better, I am SO GASSY. My office smells like farts! I’m both mortified and not sure how to make my office palatable for others. Air fresheners give me and others in my workplace a headache, but I’m not sure of other options! Would an open container of baking soda be effective? Any other ideas?

    Reply ↓
      1. All Natural Gas Man*

        Thank you! Follow-up, do you think I could make this a workplace expense or would I need to purchase it myself? I know they’re not that expensive, but I am not well-paid and work in an area with an extremely high cost of living…and I’m a little embarrassed to ask my boss.

        Reply ↓
        1. WorkerDrone*

          I asked our admin assistant to order me one because it’s an older building and dusty and my allergies were acting up, and had no problems with putting it through as a workplace expense.

          Maybe don’t tell them it’s because of stinky farts though LOL. I’d say something generic about allergies.

          Reply ↓
    2. Admin of Sys*

      An air purifier would help – just baking soda probably wont, it mostly works in very small spaces. Just avoid ozone generators, they’re seriously bad for your health.
      You can also try for less chemical options for air freshening – make a cup of strongly scented orange tea, that sort of thing.

      Reply ↓
    3. Pink Geek*

      I think you can find seat cushions with filters or charcoal or something that might help? More effective than sitting on a box of baking soda >_<

      Reply ↓
      1. All Natural Gas Man*

        Haha I wouldn’t sit on baking soda, more keeping an open box or small bowl with baking soda sitting next to my desk to absorb smells.

        Reply ↓
    4. Honoria Lucasta*

      When you say that air fresheners give you and coworkers headaches, do you mean things like Glade plugins/sprays? Or have you tried other chemical products that are marketed as odor absorbers? If that second category is still an option: I worked in a building that was assaulted every October by families of skunks, and we found that Ona odor absorbing gel worked wonders. It does have its own scent when you’re setting it out or if you get up close to it, but mostly it just …. absorbs the smell, rather than masking it with another scent. (I’ve also heard good things about Zorbx as an odor absorber, but never got around to trying it because Ona worked so well)

      Reply ↓
      1. All Natural Gas Man*

        We’ve only been exposed to the Glad/similar brand plugins and sprays. I’ll check out that Ona odor absorbing gel. Thank you!

        Reply ↓
    5. Make it bold and make it red*

      If it’s an option, open your office windows!

      I have charcoal bags that act similarly to the baking soda thing – look up “activated charcoal odor absorber.” You could get a few of those to place around your office and they’ll passively absorb smells.

      An air purifier, as another commenter suggested.

      Febreeze makes a fragrance-free spray now, maybe regularly give fabric surfaces a spritz – chair cushions, curtains, etc.

      Also, depending on your diet change (for example, a big increase in dietary fiber), gassiness should decrease over time as your digestive system adjusts. You’re not asking for gas-reduction advice, but taking some beano or gas-x (the mint chewables are yummy!) with meals could help, as well as getting out of your office for short movement breaks to work that gas out somewhere else (just don’t cropdust your coworkers).

      Reply ↓
      1. All Natural Gas Man*

        Unfortunately, I keep my office window open, but it is very small and has not yet been able to combat my particularly silent yet potent organic byproducts. I like the charcoal idea, those could be things I keep on hand for particularly eventful days.

        And thank you for the gas reduction advice. I’m really hoping it calms down soon, but in the meantime I’ll try some gas-x.

        Reply ↓
        1. Make it bold and make it red*

          Can you get a fan to stick in the window? Box fans come in different sizes, or even a stroller fan is better than nothing if the window is teeny tiny.

          If you’re allowed, you could get a little coffeepot, and brew some coffee when you expect visitors. It’ll smell nice and you can also offer them a cup! Another commenter mentioned a cup of tea – something fragrant like earl grey with bergamot, or an orange pekoe, would be nice.

          Reply ↓
    6. 867-5309*

      I am not sure if this works for an office but my go-do deodorize is high proof vodka mixed with distilled water. 2:1. Phenomenal. I also add a few drops of lavender essential oil but even without, I don’t notice the alcohol smell. Also, depending on the frequency, can you discretely light a match somehow? That burning after you blow it out often releases a scent that gets rid of others.

      Reply ↓
        1. 867-5309*

          I suspect vodka and distilled water taken internally would make one not care about the smells! (Disclaimer: This is not a recommendation. Do this at your own risk. haha)

          Reply ↓
    7. Kay*

      Is it all air fresheners, or just unnatural ones? I ask because many, if not all, of the non-natural ones are guaranteed to give me a raging headache, but a potpourri of cloves & cardamom won’t, nor will a high quality candle (I’ve had one in a spare room that hasn’t ever been lit and that room smells amazing).

      If that doesn’t work for you – second the purifier and adding oranges as snacks (the peels are an excellent freshener) with a side of jasmine tea. You could also grow a basil or mint plant at your desk and tear a leaf or two as needed.

      Reply ↓
  67. You Go Glen Coco*

    Prior to 2020, I had an amazing career working for some of the biggest tech companies in the world (PR).

    I got laid off in 2020, immediately hired into a director role at a public tech company. I got laid off in 2022 and 2023, meaning that I’ve been unemployed for the better part of 3 years.

    I can’t find ANYTHING. I’m rarely getting interviews and when I do, I’m getting knocked out in the second/third/final round. I’ve exhausted my network and my funds. I’m doing some consulting and freelance writing but it doesn’t pay the bills.

    I have 25 years of experience (but my resume looks like I have 13). Am I doomed? Will I ever work in my field again? It’s looking bleak and I don’t know how I went from a rockstar high earner to an unemployable loser.

    Any advice is welcome.

    Reply ↓
    1. Generic Name*

      Is there a reason why you can’t update your resume to reflect your actual years of experience? That would be my first thought. Also, have you considered changing fields? I keep hearing how awful tech is in general, but it’s especially difficult to get hired into now.

      Reply ↓
      1. You Go Glen Coco*

        Re resume, 1) it’s too long and 2) at 47, I’m worried about age discrimination.

        I did change industries from tech to biopharma for my last role and the company tanked and laid me off 7 months in.

        I have been applying to other industries because these are absolutely transferrable skills, but each industry seems to want an expert in that area. I just cannot win.

        Reply ↓
        1. Productivity Pigeon*

          I guess this is going to sound really stupid but if you’re not having a lot of luck with your current resume, despite it being shorter and not reflecting the entire length of your career, could you not try out a different format just to see if it makes a difference?

          Reply ↓
          1. You Go Glen Coco*

            Not stupid at all, and thank you! I’ve been unemployed for 13 months and haven’t had it reviewed in awhile. I just asked an HR friend to take a look.

            Reply ↓
        2. M2*

          Switch it up. Do some resumes with 12-15 years others with 15-18 years and see what sticks.

          Diversity where you apply. Look at communications and development/advancement / external relations in higher education and non profits. It wont pay the same as tech/biophrama, but you can work your way up and maybe pivot back in the next few years or stay in those areas. Also look at different titles, do some same as previously some for one level below (since in different field) and others one step above.

          Use your network and see if they have anything available. Are there any conferences you can attend or an online certificate you can take?

          Good luck!

          Reply ↓
    2. Sherm*

      For one, ignore media reports that say that the job market is so wonderful. Anytime that anyone says that “the job market is great!” or “the job market is awful!”, what they are really providing, at best, is a rough average of a very wide range of experiences out there, depending on one’s industry, geography, and a host of other factors.

      Ask a trusted friend/former colleague to review your resume and do a mock interview with you. That you are getting *some* interviews and getting past the first round sounds pretty encouraging to me!

      I think that indeed there is a bias among some interviewers to favor people who are already employed. So I definitely wouldn’t sell myself short regarding the freelance and consulting. You *are* working — with yourself as the boss, so ensure that your resume reflects that.

      Reply ↓
      1. You Go Glen Coco*

        Thank you for this! I needed some encouragement.

        The self-employment is definitely keeping the skills sharp.

        This morning I saw a story on the “strong finish” for jobs in 2024 and rolled my eyes. I don’t know why nobody is addressing the state of the professional job market right now.

        Reply ↓
        1. M2*

          Look at university marketing/communication roles maybe in specific schools (like science/business/) and sell your work in pharma and your PR as more communications. OR look at non-profits/ science foundations or something related to maybe AI. If you have the $ and arent getting anywhere since you were laid off more than a year ago, maybe look into some kind of certificate you can do online and put that on your resume so it shows you are working toward that.

          Until then might be a good idea to volunteer with a local non profit offering to help with their communications/social media/external relations so you have something to add to your resume

          Reply ↓
      2. Busy Middle Manager*

        I am a government jobs report guru since I am a day trader so like to stay on top of economic risks (look at what they did to stocks last friday!).

        The media cherry picks “headline #” of jobs created. Further down/over in the same report is where you find out it’s (presumably part time) fast food workers, bus drivers, as well as home health aids.

        Decreases or almost flat in financial services and IT. So the reports are actually bad, which should be the news story.

        Not work related, but it’s actually sick how they report on these reports since it’s so inaccurate compared to what matters to most people

        Reply ↓
    3. 867-5309*

      OP, I think after this long the important thing is to make sure you can show what you’ve done in that time. Make sure you’re reflecting that freelance and writing experience in one grouping.

      We’re the same age and in the same field (PR/marketing). I began to freelance after losing my job in the summer 2023 and work opportunities slowed WAY down late last summer. I picked up a part-time restaurant job (in the kitchen) to make extra money and get me out of the house and by November, that income is the only way I could make me savings last into the new year. You might not want to hear this but consider a similar job for yourself. Part-time at a chain of any kind often gets you access to a 401k (even if there is no match) and healthcare (admittedly, not great), but more than anything it gets you out in the world and, at least for me, has been an important reminder of what matters when it comes to work and relationships. I lived too long in my corporate bubble.

      Now with that out of the way… The job market has been wonky post-COVID and we’re now seeing the resizing of hiring excess that followed, along with increased M&A. It is truly terrible. As someone who has freelanced on and off through my career typically for 2-3 years at a time, I can tell you it is REALLY hard to move back to a full-time job, particularly right now. Our field is overrun with qualified candidates and return to office mandates have made remote opportunities plummet. Consider small PR agencies and take Alison’s advice, if you aren’t already, customize your resume and cover letter. The resume customization includes what jobs, how far back, what work at each job, etc.

      Finally, try to stop yourself from applying to everything. It doesn’t work and it makes customization impossible. You are where you are now. It’s time to find your new path forward that perhaps looks like applying for no more than three jobs a day (with customized materials), freelancing, adding your profile to staffing agency sites (there are 6-12 good ones for PR), and getting a part-time job. You are a person who has been out of work; not an unemployable loser. You aren’t alone.

      Reply ↓
  68. MamaCat*

    Are there any tips or resources on how to manage communication styles with regards to cultural context? One of my employees is not a native English speaker, but they are very well fluent both orally and in writing, and came from a country that is very autocratic. They have been in the US for many years. Lately, we’ve had some instances where what they say – or write – is perceived differently by the recipient than what they intended, causing some frustration. (However, given past experience with this person, I am not ruling out that the perception may be exactly what was intended, and they’re throwing shade to make us think that it’s all due to a language barrier.) Our organization does have many non-native English speaking employees so you’d think that our HR would have some sort of guidance or training that addresses this, but they don’t.

    Reply ↓
    2. Kay*

      Language barrier doesn’t seem to be the issue here? Perhaps weaponized incompetence? I say this since you mention they are very well fluent and this is a recent occurrence. Either way, you address it the same you would anything else, the outcome needs to be X. In this case, your employee needs to be able to write in a manner that isn’t perceived as being hostile/condescending/authoritarian, etc. They need to be able to maintain professional working relationships. Focus on that and you don’t have to speculate on anything else.

      Reply ↓
  69. Generic Name*

    Anyone have any tips on some nice things I can say about a junior colleague who I don’t know very well and whose work I would characterize as “meets expectations”? It’s for a work anniversary card/message, so a sentence or two is all that’s required, but I’m kind of stumped. It feels kind of cold and impersonal to just say “congrats!!”, but that’s pretty much all I’ve got at this point.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      Maybe something along the lines of “it’s been great [getting to know you/working with you] these past X years”?

      Reply ↓
    2. Productivity Pigeon*

      Are you able to say something like “thank you for always coming into work with a smile!” or something like that?

      Reply ↓
    4. Medium Sized Manager*

      You could also say something along the lines of “Looking forward to a great year 3” or whatever it is for that team member.

      Reply ↓
    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      “Thank you for your contributions in the last year, and best wishes for your continued success in the year to come!”

      Reply ↓
  70. Teapots4u*

    I supervise (like many people here…) a teapot-manufacturing facility. We have a highly-skilled teapot painting division. When the division manager position opened up, the team all let us know politely that their skills were too valuable to waste on reports and status meetings, so we ended up hiring an MBA-type who was very loosely familiar with teapot painting (ie, he had painted portraits) to manage them. (It’s a unique skill, and few candidates available.) I am now hearing rumblings that the technical team is unhappy that the new manager has not made much effort to learn the details of what they do. He can report on painting status, but has not tried to learn to paint teapots himself. The team has made offers of training him; I expect he feels (correctly) this is not in his job description. The team works long hours to get all painting details exactly right; the manager, while doing a perfectly acceptable job of managing, does not take on tasks beyond what is required. While the manager is doing nothing wrong and in fact doing his job satisfactorily, this seems like a situation that could become a problem over time. Any suggestions on how to address?

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      I mean…this sounds like a problem for the team, not the manager, but I’d check a little deeper.

      Has the technical team been informed what the manager is supposed to be doing? Do they know “paint teapots” is not part of his job description? Is the manager’s inability to paint teapots causing issues when the painters report to him? Why are the teams working long hours – are they being required to by deadlines? Or inefficiency? Or is it a passion project?

      I’d ideally want to know the answers to all of that. Not knowing that, however, I’d start with two things. 1. Make sure the technical team knows the manager has not been hired to paint teapots. He should have enough knowledge to communicate with them easily and not be confused by different paint types, but that’s not the same as being able to paint them.
      2. Make sure that the technical team is getting reasonable deadlines and is not being required to stay late. Encourage healthy work-life balance here. Having a team working 50+ hours weeks from deadlines and a manager working 40 is a fast way to get resentment unless the team is being paid significantly more and they know it.

      Reply ↓
    2. Csethiro Ceredin*

      Agreed, the starting point is finding out how this impacts their work if their manager doesn’t know their task.

      I don’t know whether the managerial position is better paid or otherwise more desirable (better hours etc.), and the teapot painters were upset not to be allowed to apply? If that is the case, they may be frustrated that someone has been placed above them who they would perceive as not even able to do their job – even if doing their job isn’t needed. It can be hard to hear “we can’t promote you because you’re too valuable where you are.”

      Not that this would necessarily change what you do, but it might make it easier to address it with them if you know where the sentiment is coming from.

      Reply ↓
    3. Kay*

      Typically when I see this it is some combination of change, appreciation, pay and/or workflow issues.

      You need to figure out whether this is just a beloved old manager being gone and the grumblings that come with the new, whether your painters are overworked and underpaid-therefore expressing their frustration, whether the manager’s lack of understanding of teapot painting is causing them to create workflow issues, or something totally different. Depending on the cause the solution could be anywhere from reminding the team that the new manager is there to manage and remind them their work is appreciated, to correcting workflow and pay issues and who knows what in between.

      Reply ↓
  71. Rage*

    I just gotta vent for a minute.

    I’ve been in a Masters program since 2021, working at my current nonprofit employer since 2016. Once I complete my internship hours, I will be able to apply for my LPC (Licensed Professional Counselor). My goal, since I started my Masters, has been to transfer from our administrative side to our outpatient services division, and work with young children.

    Over the years, I’ve made no secret of my plans, and have spoken to numerous members of leadership. I never applied for our education assistance program, largely because I started during COVID and I knew how tight funds were (plus they stopped it for a time and so I just never bothered applying again when it finally restarted) – even though our new CFO has been badgering me about it for the past year or so. I was slated to finish my internship hours last semester (and, of course, ended up being NINE SHORT – so that means a whole ‘nother semester) – so I had applied for the open position. I had an in-person screening, an in-person interview, and a peer panel interview. They all went very well.

    And then, this week: the final decision. There has been a lot of change in that division recently and things are a bit in flux. But I figured by the time this semester was over, things would have down. Nope. They decided they can’t support a counselor without a clinical license (it will take me approx 2 years to complete my clinical supervision). So – they don’t want me (or, at least, can’t afford me right now, though they say they would love for me to reapply after I get my clinical license).

    My choices are: stay in my current role with an employer that I truly do enjoy and not use the stupid degree I worked so hard to obtain OR…leave.

    The only bright side is that I have a full semester to start the job search process and there is no lack of need in my city. But it’s an expenditure of brain power, time, and energy that I really was hoping I wouldn’t have to deal with.

    *sigh*

    OK, I feel better now. Counselor, heal thyself and all that.

    Reply ↓
  72. Head Sheep Counter*

    Has anyone actually done the – move to a small town take over a bookstore and live above it fantasy? I have the potential to consider this (family property that will need to be sold as a part of an estate and its currently a rented bookstore with living quarters – I’d have to buy the estate out).

    The building has not been actively maintained (to my knowledge) and is on the coast so there are sure to be a number of issues ranging from no big deal to who even knows.

    I’ve never owned a business and have had a career in an arm of project management (project controls).

    Have you ever done something that reads as a plot to many many books?

    Reply ↓
    1. 867-5309*

      I have not but during a recent trip to Asheville stayed at an Inn of a couple who did this. They left their jobs to live their dream of starting a B&B. Of course, I asked a million questions because who doesn’t want to do this?! These two things stood out in my memory:

      1.) There are significant struggles and the knowledge that it was a lifelong dream of theirs often did not make it better.

      2.) They spent a lot of time talking through the business of it, particularly financial. Asheville experienced the devastating flooding and unfortunately, that meant even as many parts of the city are back to normal, tourism has not picked up. They managed money in a way to be able to give people refunds without needing to take out loans or dip into reserves, but most of their peers had to requests tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans to do the same.

      The family had no regrets and love what they do, but it made me realize the idea of it was probably better in my case than ever attempting to do it.

      Obviously, if you go for the dream, come back and tell us all about it!

      Reply ↓
      1. Head Sheep Counter*

        Yeah we had a B&B fantasy at one point… and fortunately never acted on it. I think shopkeeper is more in line with the level of people in my space (and service I want to provide each day).

        The financial realities are something we need to be real about. Its one thing to break even but its a whole kettle of fish to lose money in the long run. We’d have to sell our current home to even start this.

        Reply ↓
    2. Goddess47*

      I love the idea and have not done it, but a simple suggestion…

      Get a neutral third party to go through the building and give you an estimate on repairs. Triage them to: required to even think about inhabiting the building, required to running a business, then to the really-should-be-done, and then on to the nice-to-have.

      Once you have an idea of how much it will cost you to move in, are you getting enough from the estate to actually buy out the others and start your business.

      Once you know more about the building, then you can think about other things.

      Good luck. If you do it, we want to hear about it!

      Reply ↓
      1. Head Sheep Counter*

        I’d absolutely need and independent home inspection, business audit (if I bought the existing business) and valuation of both. My aunt, who is the trustee, has different needs than I do for this (eg the other folks in the trust) and to be fair to all parties… this would really need to be as transparent as possible.

        We’ve other pragmatic needs like medical care and insurance as well as selling our existing home. So there’s unlikely to be a post from me that says I quit my well paying job and drove up on a whim. :) Gotta keep a bit of the non-fiction practicals in mind. Drat.

        Reply ↓
    3. Generic Name*

      Only do this if you are a High Powered and Important Career Lady from Big City and reluctantly fall in love with the handsome flannel-shirt-wearing-bearded small town guy who currently runs the bookstore. The falling in love part must happen in the fall, so the culmination of “will they or won’t they” will happen during the winter holidays. *cue snowflakes gently falling*

      Seriously though, could you buy the building but keep the bookstore tenant, at least for the time being? That way rent is coming in? Or is the ownership of the building also tied to the business? If you were the building owner, you could use the funds from the tenant to fix up the property while you also gain some knowledge of running a bookstore. Would you be expecting the bookstore to be immediately hugely profitable under your management so that you could fix up the building? Or maybe you got a large windfall inheritance to fund this endeavor?

      Reply ↓
      1. Head Sheep Counter*

        Right? Hallmark needs to call me and my husband needs more flannel.

        My understanding is that there’s not a good division of private/business for this building currently. I believe that the family has talked to the tenants and they aren’t going to buy it (I’m not sure why not and that needs to be asked).

        I think realistically, I’d need to move in fairly quickly (right now we’d need a bridge loan or something from our current house as my husband was laid off in November and my income while great… would cease to exist if we moved until we figure out our crap), but ideally I’d prefer to keep a tenant and do the fixing on the exterior and perhaps other before we moved in (and since we are Hallmark, the tenant would be happy and want to retire… and train). I wouldn’t expect to be wildly profitable. My goal would be self-sustaining (not dipping into retirement/savings super hard) for say five years but enough income somewhere to cover health insurance (so modest).

        Reply ↓
  73. Elizabeth*

    I’m doing up a targeted resume this morning, and they also want my LinkedIn profile. Do you update LinkedIn to match your revised resumes (which doesn’t work if you’re applying to multiple roles), or just leave it generically accurate?

    Am I overthinking this?

    Reply ↓
    2. juliebulie*

      I would leave it generally accurate. They might be looking to see if they know any of your connections, or if you have a lot of references from oldjob, and things like that. Some people post to LinkedIn a lot, and they might want to see what, if anything you’ve posted. (Whether or not you really need to post anything, I couldn’t say!)

      Reply ↓
  74. Disgruntled Oatmeal Expert*

    My new company’s promotion path seems to be “find an (internal) advertised job at the new role level and apply”. Does anyone have experience of this? Is it real or is there another way things work in practice?

    Context: I worked at MidSizeCorp and we were acquired by GiantCorp. All of our roles were mapped to GiantCorp roles, but basically everyone got a demotion as a result. (We were underpaid at MidSizeCorp and we figure GiantCorp didn’t want to spend the money on raising everyone’s salary.) My title dropped from Oatmeal Expert to Advanced Oatmeal Practitioner. There are job capability guides and I feel I can easily make the case that I am working at Oatmeal Expert level, but I can’t find a process for getting a promotion without finding an open Oatmeal Expert job. The GiantCorp HR documentation specifically says to look for a posted job at the desired new level.

    Everywhere else I’ve worked has had some kind of promotion along a track for my kind of job — I’m an individual contributor, nowhere near the C-suite or anything. I have spoken to my manager, who is sympathetic as he is in the same boat (he was “demoted” from Director of Oatmeal to Oatmeal Expert). He is going to raise it further but I’m wondering if this “just find a job” process is a real thing anywhere.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      A company that is growing and changing, and which sees long-tenured employees as an asset, will have promotion tracks, etc. A company that is large, satisfied, and bureaucratic, and which sees long-tenured employees as a liability, will behave like GiantCorp.

      Reply ↓
      1. Disgruntled Oatmeal Expert*

        Thanks for this. “Large, satisfied, and bureaucratic” describes GiantCorp well from what I’ve seen.

        Reply ↓
    2. Abc*

      My LargeCorp works exactly the same way – no promotions unless there is an opening to be promoted into. a very “one in, one out” style of doing things.

      Reply ↓
  75. Hatchet*

    A football story with a work related (manager – employee) slant…
    ESPN has an article today about Jared Goff and the Lions: The NFL’s most unlikely love story. (I’ll post a link in the comments.)

    As I read this, I noticed that this was an AAM type success story… a new employee unsure of his place, a manager who showed confidence in this employee and promoted good communication, thus empowering the employee, which led to success in their organization.

    An interesting read, especially if you’re following the playoffs.

    Reply ↓
  76. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

    Sending good vibes to everyone applying for jobs right now! I’m currently filling 3 different positions and am having to say no to some really strong, interesting candidates because I just can’t interview or hire everyone who seems like they would be great to work with and make great contributions. It’s a real soul crushing process, looking for a job, but remember that the rejections are more likely about the other candidates or business needs changing or that they poorly communicated what they’re looking for. Stay strong!

    Reply ↓
  77. Shopping is my cardio*

    Nothing much to remark this week except a coworker who is known for colorful language loudly called someone “a f-ing frigid bitch”. She said the whole f-ing word mind you. She wasn’t referring to anyone we know but a person she knows outside of work.

    The immediate gasps were heard all over the office. So yeah, just great.

    Reply ↓
    1. These pretzels are making me thirsty*

      I’d rather that than weird positive overload and fakery. She said what she said. I would have laughed before gasping. Then wished I could find the bravery to do so myself.

      Reply ↓
  78. Acorn*

    I have a friend in academia whose contract with their current university is ending soon but just got a great offer at another university. Their partner (also in academia) is currently interviewing as well but wasn’t able to secure an interview at the same university. My friend is now considering negotiating with the offering university to see if they can get their partner a position there as well.

    My immediate instinct is this would come across as a very weird request but I know academia can have different rules. Is this normal in academia?

    Reply ↓
    2. Productivity Pigeon*

      No clue but I’m very interested in hearing from some who knows!

      It sounds bunkers to a non-academic like me.

      Reply ↓
      1. 867-5309*

        I was thinking the same thing as a fellow non-academic. It is very anthropologic to follow this thread. If I hired something and they tried to negotiate a job for their spouse (private sector, corporate), I would be agog and tell everyone I know.

        Reply ↓
    3. Head Sheep Counter*

      Its normal and has a name… the two body problem

      But it is very dependent on how much the first candidate is desired… and if the second person has skills that are needed.

      Reply ↓
      1. Higher Ed Person*

        Spousal hires are definitely a thing in higher education, but they’re increasingly rare (constrained higher ed budgets) –– a spousal hire has the greatest chance of going thru if first candidate is desired (as HSC said), is moving into a TT job, and the university is wealthy (R1 and some private universities).

        Reply ↓
    4. WorkerDrone*

      For faculty, sure. This isn’t uncommon, and would not be a weird request at all.

      For staff, the extremely times I’ve heard of this happening were for very senior upper administration hires – Provost or President level. But even at that level I have to stress this would still be rare. It would be a very weird request if they were not at that upper admin level.

      Reply ↓
    5. Unladen European Swallow*

      To add to what others have noted, in academia it not uncommon for this type of request to come up when someone is being hired as faculty in a tenure-track role. These are available fewer and farther now. I have never heard of anyone making a similar request when they’re being hired on as a contract instructor/lecture and/or adjuct.

      Reply ↓
    6. Acorn*

      Thanks for the insight everyone! I’ve worked in private sector my entire career so could never imagine negotiating for something like this, but I’m pleasantly surprised this avenue is possible for my friend.

      Reply ↓
    7. curly sue*

      Absolutely normal, and I can name four or five instances in my faculty alone. If one partner is a rock star, it’s pretty normal for a school or department to create a new position for the other, especially if the rock star is a big name likely to bring in big grants, and that’s the only barrier to securing the contract.

      (There can be a stigma that follows the second body, of course, if they’re not perceived to be at the same level as the rock star spouse. That can get nasty sometimes.)

      Reply ↓
    8. Reba*

      Absolutely normal to negotiate for a spousal hire, though increasingly rare to get one. The job market is so brutal that institutions have little incentive to negotiate things like this, plus there is the context of decades-long decline in TT jobs.

      I’ve seen “trailing spouses” (ugh) get Visiting Assistant Professor roles created for them, some kind of non-positions like research associate (unpaid but gives access to university resources), adjunct lecturer, or a non-faculty position. Aside from the last, these never turn into something “real,” and offer lower pay, no retirement, no promotion potential, no benefits like travel funds, etc. It can be extremely frustrating to be the trailer. I also know academic couples who just live in different states.

      Good luck and congrats to your friend!

      Reply ↓
      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        My (tenure-track, but not tenured yet) calc professor’s husband was also a PhD; he worked at a different university 10 miles away. Your friend might see if there’s any local academic networking that they can tap into.

        Reply ↓
  79. ADHD Anonymous Today*

    This question is for all the neurodiverse, neurodivergent, or neuro spicy folks out there–are you open about it at work? I don’t need any ADA accommodations, but I’m torn on whether to join my company’s employee affinity group for those with disabilities (the group is open to anyone with a disability or allies).

    I was finally diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago, and I’m learning a lot about how to manage my symptoms. I feel really alone in this because my family doesn’t know about my diagnosis (good reasons). It would be nice to feel less isolated. But at the same time, there is still such a stigma about ADHD. I worry being public about it could harm my career. In my role, I work with a lot of different departments, including with senior executives. What if someone doesn’t want me working on their project because they know I have ADHD? And while I understand the reason why the group is open and welcoming to allies, I don’t like it. It feels less safe, somehow, if we’re in this group but there are people in there who aren’t experiencing for themselves the challenges we face.

    As much as I want to get support, I feel like I have to keep hiding to stay safe. Thoughts?

    Reply ↓
    1. NeurodivergentTeacher*

      I am out about being dyslexic, not about having depression (which I take meds for), and sort of out about anxiety. Enough of my job is anxiety producing that saying I’m anxious usually gets attributed to whatever hard thing is happening (contentious IEP meeting, filing with DCF, having to make hard staffing decisions). I’m talking to my doctor about a possible ADHD diagnosis. I’d likely be out about it if I am diagnosed. However, given my career in special ed, having an identity similar to my students helps.

      If you want to test the waters, you could say something about some of your ADHD symptoms in relation to something you struggle with/need help with. So something like “this project is still in the concept phase, so I’m struggling with the steps to take OR to know where to start”.
      Others with and without ADHD may agree with you which could give you the affirmation you need and build up your confidence that being upfront with the diagnosis will be fine.

      Also, a lot of people with late diagnoses have a lot of shame because they have been trying to fit into a world that is built for people with different strengths and challenges. They receive the message that something is wrong with them. This could be where some of your worry is coming from. With my disabled and neurodiverse students, we put together learner profiles by talking about the things that come more naturally to them and the things they have to think harder about. We then talk about how some of the strengths are helpful in some settings but may make school harder. Then we talk about the strategies to put in place to help them when their challenges are hitting up against classroom expectations. For example, I have one Autistic student who is great at big picture thinking but thinking about the steps to move toward a big idea is something she needs to work hard to do. So moving from writing a thesis to identifying evidence is like pulling teeth. She was avoiding her essays in class. Her outlook shifted once we framed her strengths and strategized fun ways to organize evidence. While things aren’t perfect, we have better language to stop the negative self-talk loop.

      Good luck on your journey! I hope you find power in self-discovery.

      Reply ↓
    2. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

      I’m extremely open about it in my current job because I have a reputation as a high performer and am extremely secure in my relationship with the teams I regularly work with. I can be open with very little risk to myself, and I do that to make it a little easier for the next person who may face more risk than I do.

      Part of what makes me comfortable doing this is the culture in my current job. It’s very supportive and open and when I disclosed I found out several of the most senior execs in my org also have ADHD and a lot of people are also disclosing now.

      I think trust your instincts. If it’s going to cause you distress, that might negate any benefit you get from being in community with other ADHDers at work and there’s plenty of communities for ADHDers outside your work. Group therapy was very helpful to me! Wishing you the best of luck, friend.

      Reply ↓
    3. EMP*

      I’m a software engineer and at this point the stigma is pretty low in this field. I mention it sort of half joking when I talk about why I feel strongly about certain features that impact me more because of my ADHD

      Reply ↓
  80. epicdemiologist*

    Folks who work in refineries, chemical plants or similar industries, or folks who are just fans of process safety (such as subscribers to the CSB’s YouTube channel)–the US Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board has a new publication: aimed at the lay public, it summarizes every investigation they’ve done from March 2020 through Sept. 2023 (this is Volume One; more to come). You can find it at csb (dot) gov; click on “media room” then “news releases”.

    If you’re a fiction writer, this is a great source of “what could possibly go wrong” plot bunnies!

    Reply ↓
  81. Frank Doyle*

    I had an interview for a job with a state government agency (PA). I know I’m really jumping the gun here, but if I were to get an offer, is there any room at all to negotiate, or is everything set in stone? Could I ask for more vacation time, for example? I’ve only ever been employed in the public sector. Thanks!

    Reply ↓
  82. Anne Shirley Blythe*

    A C-suite manager at work asked me to proof her daughter’s resume, and luckily for me it is very well written lol. (It’s also a light day and I’m on fine terms with the manager)

    Her daughter Glinda is probably no older than 24. She has a consulting job and has had a few internships. The resume is solid–not lacking for content.

    Opinions please:
    Do you think she’s too old to have her highschool info and an academic award (in addition to her bachelor’s degree) on the resume or do you think there’s an age window in which you can still do this?

    In a Misc. section, Glinda also mentioned she was an assistant coach for a Christian fellowship and sports organization with a name like “Christian Athletes of ABC County.” She says she “led faith-based talks and coached soccer.” No other mentions of religious activities anywhere else. Do you think this is ok to send to employers with no Christian affiliation?

    I believe these mentions were to further highlight her soft skills and growing managerial skills–in other words, they are not jarring in the context of the resume. Thank you!!

    Reply ↓
    1. 867-5309*

      IMO, no one should have high school on their resume once they are out of college.

      I recently reviewed the resume of a young woman of a similar age who also has a similar bullet in her involvement, volunteer and leadership section. I told her to be aware that some hiring managers MIGHT disregard the resume but she likely wasn’t senior enough for it to be a major issue AND she could decide that was okay with her because she preferred a place or people with similar values.

      Reply ↓
    2. my thoughts*

      If the daughter has a bachelor’s, then she shouldn’t include her high school info (even the award). I hire people in their early 20s/fresh out of college pretty regularly (even occasionally students still in college!) and that would strike me as weird.

      As to the Christian sports thing–if I were helping edit Glinda’s resume, I would strongly urge her to at least revise the description so it doesn’t mention faith. Focus on the coaching and communication skills, not the faith aspect (but obviously the name of the organization would still reference religion, which is fine). I will say that if I were reviewing resumes and saw Glinda’s, I would probably think that “led faith-based talks” is a weird thing to include, but would never hold it against her (especially since she’s young and trying to highlight soft skills).

      Reply ↓
      1. TechWorker*

        Disagree on the high school info, like it shouldn’t take up too much space but some hiring managers *do* care. In the absence of significant work experience I’ll take all the info I can get including stuff from high school.

        Reply ↓
    3. Alex*

      I think it is time for her to remove her high school info.

      I think the coaching thing is fine, although I’m not sure what “faith-based talks” are, so that strikes me as more confusing than anything and I’m not sure that strengthens the resume.

      Reply ↓
    4. ShazamIT*

      Swap faith based talks to ‘mentored players’ or if it was more like conference talks to ‘presented to 75 people’ or whatever the number was.

      Reply ↓
  83. Coverage?*

    I have a question for people who manage organizations that are open to the public (like stores, libraries, or offices where random people might come in). This might sound like a silly question, but what do you do if an employee can’t work at the last minute? At my organization, we have a front desk to serve our patrons. During the work week, there are full-time staff people who might be able to step in to cover the desk if one of the part-time employees is sick/late/unable to work. But if a part-time, front desk employee calls out last second for an evening or weekend shift, then what do you do?

    Currently, our part-time employees will call or text other part-time employees asking for someone to cover last-minute. But occasionally no one will be available, at which point the part-timer who’s unable to work will call their full-time manager. This puts the manager in a bad spot–sometimes the manager will go in to work (or ask another full-time person if they’re able to work); other times, we just close, but the manager has to call security and put a notice on the website last minute (and the organization’s director REALLY dislikes when we close instead of finding a full-timer to work).

    I would like if we had more support from the director to simply close when no part-time employees can work, but even closing last minute is a pain to the manager, because she still has to make a couple phone calls and edit the website. I guess closing would be easier if we didn’t have to do anything . . . but that feels unfair to the people we serve.

    My sense is that in a lot of retail settings, the manager would then have to go in to work. That is probably what our director would like us to do, but I think that sucks! She works enough already, and so does every other full-time staff member. Our work schedule/culture is very much Mon-Fri, 8-5.

    What do you all do?

    Reply ↓
    1. MissBliss*

      You either pay people to be on-call, so they’re able to step in last minute if needed; you compensate the manager in a way that they don’t mind the occasional need to step in for a shift; or you hire more people.

      Reply ↓
    2. Throwaway Account*

      We have more than one person at the service desks so there is coverage. And we don’t ASK other employees to cover the desk, we TELL them they are needed for coverage. I don’t love doing that, but it is what we do.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        I’m assuming you mean employees who are scheduled to work at that time, just not at the desk? It sounds like Coverage is asking what happens if there’s only one person scheduled in the building and they call out.

        Reply ↓
  84. TechWorker*

    Verrry low stakes question – I work in an open plan office but have a lot of meetings so often carrying my laptop/notebook between my desk and meeting rooms. I am also a women with a relatively weak bladder so often need to pee on the way to a meeting! Atm I will either leave my laptop on a desk near the door, or sometimes balance my laptop like, on the sink… is this really weird? Does your office have a better solution for ‘what to do with your stuff if you use the bathroom on the way to a meeting’?

    Reply ↓
    1. 867-5309*

      I’ve always just left my materials on the sink, assuming there is space to do so, or put it on the chair/table where the meeting is happening and then running to the bathroom. Although you bring up an interesting point… Why DON’T workplaces have shelves for laptops and stuff?!

      Reply ↓
    2. Alex*

      Our bathroom has a table, which is handy. Maybe you can suggest this to whomever handles your office supplies, etc.?

      Reply ↓
    3. DataWonk*

      I work in a lab setting and we have small side tables at the entrances for water bottles/food if people need to stop in. Our floor’s multi-stall bathroom is large and there’s an empty area where I just put my stuff on the floor in the corner. I’ve seen some people leave their water bottles outside the door too. (our bathrooms aren’t near desks)

      What you’re doing isn’t weird at all unless that desk by the door is occupied lol. People understand not to touch stuff for the most part. You could ask to get a small side table to keep outside restrooms?

      Reply ↓
    5. Tulip*

      I just carry my stuff in a tote bag to keep my hands free, which means I can hang it up in the bathroom if need be.

      Reply ↓
    6. Productivity Pigeon*

      I just left mine on any nearby furniture that wasn’t currently being used.

      Or used a tote bag and just left it outside the bathroom.

      Reply ↓
  85. Layoff or Leave?*

    Is anyone else’s work place a hot mess right now?

    My workplace has been dealing with a lot of changes lately. Lots of leadership changes, which has lead to a lot of fear and anxiety. Some layoffs with more to come. Lots of political stuff and people jockeying for power.

    I have already been looking for a new role outside of the company. My current is very up in the air, so its probably for the best.

    Reply ↓
    1. anon for this*

      I work at a small university and the budget was cut before the fall started, during the fall, and we are told more cuts are coming. We asked if staff will be laid off, no clear answer if that is on the table. Some of us are worried the school will close.

      Reply ↓
    2. Pam*

      Yes! My workplace is a hot mess. There are no decisions being made. Every time something comes close to being decided, it gets pulled back. And every department is getting different information.
      It’s all tracing back to one particular person who is giving different information to different people but so far only a few people have figured that out. I have started keeping a tub of popcorn at my desk for when I learn of new drama.

      Reply ↓
    3. Amber Rose*

      I’ve only been here a month and a half and I get the impression this place has never not been a hot mess.

      I’m setting hard boundaries with just about everyone in a way they’ve clearly never experienced and seeing if or how long it takes before my refusal to participate in nonsense outweighs how awesome I am at my job.

      Reply ↓
  86. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

    I posted before about the bizarre flea market tales and didn’t get a chance to address a question someone asked after the last one ( https://www.askamanager.org/2024/08/open-thread-august-30-2024.html#comment-4841049 ).

    No, we underpaid peons didn’t get into any legal trouble. There was plenty of evidence that we were entirely clueless about the source of the electronics, especially thanks to the manager, who knew the flea market owner well enough to not trust him and kept copies of every communication from him. Even without that, it would have been obvious from our statements and the nature of our jobs. The manager was the only one who had any kind of purchasing power and it was only for basic supplies at the local office supply store. All merchandise was brought in by booth renters or the owner so the stolen goods were 100% on him.

    I was worried because we had all been essentially given free electronics that were stolen goods but there was no way to prove that we didn’t just buy them at Circuit City or somewhere else. The computer inventory only recorded if something had sold, not who bought it, and credit card receipts only listed the total sale, not an itemized list. The police said even if we had receipts showing who bought what, no one would have been in trouble for it because of reasonable assumption of legal sale.

    It was still pretty terrifying and that’s when I started thinking maybe I needed a new job, despite it otherwise being one of the most fun jobs I ever had. It was a few months later that the owner decided to fire all three of us. He didn’t want to make it obvious that he was doing it because by then we all knew too much so his cocaine-addled brain thought the best way to cover his tracks was to tell us all that he didn’t think women could do the job and he was going to replace us with men.

    The manager and the other clerk talked about suing him but couldn’t get any lawyers in town to take the case. We all got better jobs soon after and decided it was better to cut ties entirely and pretend it never happened until we were all reasonably far enough away that he wouldn’t remember we existed.

    The story of that owner doesn’t entirely end there. Due to mostly his massive influence and owning a significant number of property and businesses in the small town this took place in, he wound up being our vet, almost killed one of our cats due to negligence, became our landlord, and caused me to have to flee town under cover of darkness when we were moving out of state.

    I’ll try to remember to post those stories in the weekend open thread. I have them written up somewhere in a google doc that I made after it happened as a reminder about this maniac.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      Oh wow, just like the last time, I am surprised! Owner wanting to fire you and your coworkers, sadly that’s a level of awfulness I can wrap my head around. But he was later your veterinarian! And then your landlord!! I’m speechless.

      Reply ↓
  87. Maggie*

    My company is mandating a RTO in three months 5 days a week. I was hired as a remote employee and the closest office is not even in my state. I’m obviously job searching because I’m sure they’ll terminate anyone who can’t comply. My question is – does anyone have experience getting unemployment in this situation assuming I haven’t found a new job yet? Are there guidelines on what qualifies for unemployment? Thanks for any advice.

    Reply ↓
    1. Rick Tq*

      Does your manager know (or remember) you were hired as a Remote worker from Day One? They may be willing to reduce the mandate to only employees that normally worked in a local office.

      Reply ↓
    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      Basically they would be eliminating your role where it is. Unemployment eligibility is determined by the state, but generally this would be constructive discharge or a layoff so it would be likely you would be eligible.

      Reply ↓
      1. Maggie*

        Thank you for weighing in! As a follow up, any advice on what I should be saving to make my case to unemployment? I have my offer letter, screen shots of being listed “remote” and all emails with the new mandate. I am in Ohio if that matters.

        Reply ↓
  88. Paris Geller*

    For those that work in an office setting in-person the majority of the time, what are things that make your working space more comfortable? Either personal belongings or things the company provides? I’m curious. Personally, I really like that we have a toaster oven in our break room and two microwaves, because it makes things go a lot faster if people are taking their lunches at the same time and I don’t feel like I have to wait forever for the microwave. For personal objects I brought in, I keep both a small desk fan and a blanket in my cubicle to help with any temperature-related issues, since I feel like I always find the office too hot or too cold!

    Reply ↓
    1. Amber Rose*

      I love my desk fan. I also have a tiny speaker that I play very quietly, because earbuds hurt my ears but silence is too difficult.

      I keep my office well stocked with drinks, because it’s SO dry and I’m always thirsty but I struggle to drink still water even if I’m parched. I think because I get too focused on how I can taste the container it’s in.

      Reply ↓
    2. Pam Adams*

      I have a lot of art and pictures on my walls. Love being able to look up and see a picture my nephew drew when he was two!

      Reply ↓
    4. Strive to Excel*

      Hot water kettle! Specifically an electric one! The company provides one here but I’d bring one if they didn’t.

      Reply ↓
    5. Csethiro Ceredin*

      A well insulated coffee mug and water bottle make me happy because the kitchen is at the opposite corner of the floor so I don’t get up often to heat up my drink or add ice to my water. I also have art I like staring at (or having others stare at on video calls), a page-a-day calendar which I also use for scribbling notes on the old pages, and a fuzzy blanket because I run cold. And I hung a prism in the window.

      Our coffee machine also makes cocoa, which isn’t my thing but people love it.

      My colleague has a heated shawl thing which I am quite envious of.

      Reply ↓
  89. ConfusedStealth*

    Last week’s commenters suggested I ask this earlier in the day: So I started a new job part-time this week. I’m transgender, and this is the first time I’ve been at a job where people don’t know I’m trans. And also, I’m disabled, which people typically can’t tell unless either they know a lot about Disability A and recognize signs or if I’m having a bad day with Disability B and the symptoms are apparent. I didn’t disclose because I don’t think I’ll need accommodations in the position. So, at least so far, my coworkers and even management see me as a cisgender person without a disability. I don’t want to disclose my disability or come out, or at least I didn’t think I did, because I don’t see any benefits. But it’s weird! It’s weird that no one sees me as weird? It’s weird fitting in?

    Have other people been in this or similar situations? How did you adjust?

    Reply ↓
  90. Kind Report*

    My direct reports acts of kindness is becoming a problem.

    I feel like a jerk writing this out, but it has become numerous and frequent enough that it’s been noticed. I have a direct report who is very kind, and that makes her late.

    Some recent examples include:

    On the way back from lunch she witnessed someone get stuck in the snow. She stopped and helped them dig out making her lunch 20 minutes over.

    She repeatedly digs out her disabled neighbor when it snows before coming into work. It snows a lot here and it’s normal to be late on snow days but she’s always the last in and is obviously physically exhausted from the labor.

    She picked up a random woman and her kid when it was raining and drove them to their destination then bought them an umbrella. This was again at lunch so even though she took her lunch break to do this she was still a couple minutes late being back and then had to eat at her desk despite taking a break.

    On the way back from an internal meeting she noticed the organizer struggling to carry all her materials so split the load and walked her to her desk. So even though everyone else on the team got back and had a 10 minute pow wow about the meeting, she missed it. She did come back with some interesting insights from the organizer, but still.

    Her work is fantastic and she’s really effecient but her lateness has been noticed. I don’t want to be like – stop being so helpful … but at the same time it feels excessive. Any advice for addressing this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Throwaway Account*

      I think Alison would say to name the problem, the lateness, and it being noticed, and let the reason for it go. Let your employee work that out.

      Having said that, for the most part, I would do what your employee is doing.

      Reply ↓
    2. Productivity Pigeon*

      Don’t address it at all, just address the lateness. Tell her it’s important that she is punctual.

      Reply ↓
      1. ferrina*

        This.
        Simply address the punctuality. She needs to be on time- that is a requirement of the job. She needs to attend meetings- assisting someone is not a valid excuse to not be at a meeting.

        I wouldn’t address the impacts of shoveling for her neighbor. If everyone is late, then I wouldn’t address it unless there is a significant difference (like everyone else is in by 11 and she’s coming in at 1). At that point you can talk to HR and see if your person should be taking PTO for the time she misses. Don’t address the exhaustion; if it impacts her work, then talk to her about her work.

        Reply ↓
    3. Cordelia*

      If her work is fantastic and she’s really efficient, why does the lateness matter? Who is doing the “noticing”, and why does it bother them? I might notice that my coworker was late because she had dug someone out of the snow, but I certainly wouldn’t be complaining about it.
      I thought when I read “acts of kindness” that you had an annoying employee who was trying to ingratiate herself with performative random “Acts of kindness” – bringing flowers, making coffee for everyone, cleaning someone’s workspace, etc – and that it was taking too much time and getting in the way of her work. But your employee is getting her work done to a very high level, and also being a good person. What is the issue?

      Reply ↓
    4. Hlao-roo*

      her lateness has been noticed

      Noticed by who? By you? By her peers? By higher-ups? If it’s been noticed just by you, are there more problems than just “being late”? For example:
      – leaving a coverage-based role uncovered (for example, no one is at the front desk when she’s late, or client’s phone calls go unanswered when she’s late, etc.)
      – falling behind on work because of missing work time
      – work quality noticeable decreasing when she’s physically tired from shoveling

      For the late-because-of-helping-others-with-the-weather examples, I think you can address the knock-on effects of the lateness without saying “don’t help people.”

      If the lateness has been noticed by higher-ups, I think it would be good to have an “FYI” conversation with her, along the lines of: “Department Head Alex has noticed that you’re often the last one in on snow days. They’re a stickler for being on time, and if you continue with this pattern [you probably won’t be able to get promoted at this company/your job will be on the line/Alex will be brusque with you].”

      The internal meeting example is the only one where I see a problem that isn’t just “is late.” For that situation, is a team-only after-meeting usual and expected? What if a different team member (without a history of being late) had wandered off after the meeting to go to the bathroom and then make a cup of coffee and also missed the team-only after-meeting? How would you address that with them? I think you can address this situation with your Late-and-Kind report the same way you would with Hypothetical-Bathroom-and-Coffee report.

      Reply ↓
    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      “Her work is fantastic and she’s really effecient but her lateness has been noticed”

      Noticed by who? Is it affecting her reputation?

      From what you describe, she hasn’t actually been late for anything that matters. You said she missed a “pow wow” (I don’t think we’re using that term anymore, fwiw!), but that sounds like an impromptu debrief your team decided to have, not a formal meeting. Would she have helped the meeting organizer with all her stuff if you’d said “Team, let’s have a quick chat when we get back to our area?”

      I appreciate that she wants to be helpful and there really is a time and a place, but as written, unless she has a front-facing job of some kind where she needs to be available at specific times, this mostly reads as a “she gets her work done, let her be” situation imo.

      Reply ↓
    6. HonorBox*

      I think you can address the lateness… if it REALLY matters. Did the 20 minutes matter when she helped dig someone out of the snow? When she’s helping her neighbor, how late was she? You say she was just the last one in and was exhausted. But is that 5-10 minutes after everyone? And did the exhaustion matter a bunch? And when she was a couple minutes late coming back because of the umbrella delivery, did that matter much?

      I really would push back on you related to helping the organizer. Unless you specifically called the meeting and let everyone know to stop and chat, she didn’t know. She was helping a colleague and you say she got some interesting insights. So unless she disobeyed you directly by not immediately returning for a meeting you’d called, leave it alone.

      The only thing that you wrote that gives me pause is that she stopped and picked up strangers. While nice, that’s not exactly the safest thing. I’d be concerned about her well-being, not the few minutes she was running late.

      IF she needs to be in her seat for a specific reason, then address it. Tell her she needs to be in place and needs to find ways to make that happen. But if she isn’t plugging into her laptop with customers in a queue waiting for her right at 8am, I’d let this slide. She’s not running late because she hits snooze seven times. She is doing kind things for people and actually got some professional benefit from one of those situations. Her work is fantastic. Let that speak for itself.

      Reply ↓
      1. Honoria Lucasta*

        Even if helping strangers on her lunch break is the thing that worries you the most, it seems like one of the least-addressable (along with helping her neighbor). As others have said, the lateness is the problem … any other reason could also make her late, and the lateness is the problem.

        And with the organizer, if she didn’t know about the informal team meeting then I’m actually on her side: having a few minutes of extra face-time with someone who organized the meeting, in a way where I can generate goodwill with them by being helpful and possibly get a few extra questions answered, seems like a prudent move when you have nothing else pressing. If she *did* know about the team get-together and bailed on you to chat with the organizer, then it might make sense to ask what her thought process was and explain that there was an impact on the team.

        Reply ↓
        1. HonorBox*

          I don’t disagree. However, I think the thing that really matters is whether the lateness is really an issue. A few minutes here and there if she’s salaried and not expected to unlock the door (or other coverage-based task) isn’t an issue at all. Even 20 minutes isn’t that big a deal if it is once. And I’d be really curious how often this happens. I know the question includes a few recent examples. If this is weekly, or more, then maybe it does need to be addressed, even if she’s not in a coverage roll. But if it is a couple times a month, I’d let it go.

          Reply ↓
  91. AnonToday*

    How much of a pay cut would you take? I’m being offered a job that sounds great but would be almost 20,000 less a year than I’m currently making. Benefits are probably about the same as current job, maybe a bit better. But current job is extremely toxic and I’ve seriously considered quitting without anything lined up. Unfortunately, the new job would be a contract job (US based) so I’d have to stay for at least one year at lower pay. Would you take the new job and keep looking while losing some income, or keep looking while keeping toxic job at current income?

    Reply ↓
    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      I’ll reverse the question for you – would you pay 20k to not deal with your current toxic work environment? And either yes or no is fine. but if it is yes then you know you should leave. It the answer is no, just remind yourself everyday that you are willing to put up with this for 20k.

      Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      About 15 years ago, I took a pay cut of about $15,000 to get out of a very toxic environment. I knew the job was a step down from what I was doing, but it turns out it was actually two steps down because of the way their titles worked. I stayed there for three years, and the job I left for was about the same salary-wise as if I had stayed at toxic job and gotten a 2% raise every year.

      I think if you’re thinking of quitting without anything lined up, then your question isn’t about whether or not you’d take a $20k paycut, it’s whether or not you prefer to be making Current Salary minus $20k or $0.

      Reply ↓
    3. Head Sheep Counter*

      I’m willing to consider a pay cut for my situation… but… I have a list of things that I need to balance it out.
      1. I’d need the benefits I want (currently I have an option for health insurance but its not the company I want).
      2. It would need to be scope/product/industry I like better than my current.
      3. The commute would need to be wildly better.
      4. I would really have to like/click with the people

      I’m not at the quit point in my current position. I’m at the sigh… I want more for myself point. So your list could/should be shorter or simply… not this place.

      Reply ↓
    4. HonorBox*

      Will the new position give you more defined work and better defined hours? If you’re working additional hours, through lunch, unable to take PTO, expected to work while sick, etc. at your current job and it seems clearer that you won’t have that in the new job, it might ultimately be less than a 20,000 pay cut.

      And one additional thought for you… if the current job is extremely toxic, what is it doing to your mental and physical health? Are you not doing fun things during your off hours? Are you isolating from friends just because you need to rest after stressful days/weeks? That might be worth 20,000.

      And 20,000 if I’m making 200,000 is far different than 20,000 if I’m making 50,000. So can you make it work financially?

      Reply ↓
    5. Antilles*

      Personally, I’d set my line in terms of percentages-not-dollars and at somewhere around 10% to 20% of my total pay.
      Would I take a 10% pay cut for a slight improvement in benefits and a huge improvement in my mental health? Absolutely.
      If it’s 25%? Then I’m just trading one source-of-stress (toxic job) for another (finances), so no chance.

      Reply ↓
    6. Pay no attention...*

      I took a pay cut of about $15,000 when I started at my current job but the additional benefits FAR outweighed the cut in pay at the time. That sounds like a no-brainer on paper, but it still came down to could I continue to live on less income from a cash standpoint? And it was difficult. Gaining dental and vision insurance and matching retirement contributions was fantastic, but I can’t buy groceries with it. I don’t regret doing it, but would I do it again? Not at my age or this economy. Before I was barely into my 30s and felt I had time to recover in salary, but now that I’m in my 50s, I’m putting up with a lot of toxic because I don’t feel like I have time (or energy) to start over and work up, plus those benefits that were nice when I was in my 30s are now essential in my 50s.

      Reply ↓
  92. a fever you can't sweat 0ut*

    a small humble brag. back in july i took a gamble and left a company i’d thought i’d be with forever after becoming their punching bag and scapegoat. today, i had my first annual review. my boss told me he loved that i work here now and what i’m doing, and that i have a good eye for detail – something my old manager said i didn’t have.

    i was also stopped by the head of another department and was told that people like and respect me here, they talk about me and how much they think i’m excelling. i’m gobsmacked (in the best way possible).

    to those who think you can’t get out… you can. the grass is greener where you water it – and don’t let anyone turn your patch brown. <3

    Reply ↓
  93. Cheezmouser*

    A small team was recently moved under me. I worked closely with this team for the last two years but now I’m managing them. Any tips for what to do or not do in the early days of taking over a team?

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      This was me about 15 years ago. Do go in with curiosity. What has worked for them in the past? What hasn’t? You’re more well-informed than an outsider would be about how people operate, but you need to look at things through a managerial lens versus a peer lens. Let them know that, of course, your relationship with them will change a bit. Without knowing how you interacted with them, these are examples… you may tell them you need to decline going to lunch regularly. You may need to not be as chatty about weekend plans. You may need to operate a little differently. Just let them know that they shouldn’t read into that, but rather just know that you’re trying to draw a boundary between colleague and manager.

      Reply ↓
    2. Pay no attention...*

      Similar to HonorBox, ask them questions about what they actually do vs. what their job description or title would indicate. Even though you’ve worked closely with them, you probably haven’t seen the entire scope of their work. A lot of people deal with job creep and tasks that have fallen on them over time that wouldn’t be obvious or standard for their title. One of my pet peeves are new managers who come in with assumptions instead of facts.

      Reply ↓
    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      Google “New Manager Assimilation”. Basically the idea is to have the team answer some questions for you and develop questions they would like to ask you as a team. It helps you all get to know each other and understand your work styles.

      Reply ↓
  94. Applesauced*

    This week was my first back after maternity leave. I WANTED to go back to work, and it was still hard leaving my baby the first day – and he was at home with family.

    One of my young coworkers (I think she’s early 20s) asked me “do you think your baby misses you while you’re at work? all day is a long time to be without mom”

    HEART.
    DAGGER.

    I know she didn’t mean any harm, but I needed to share. And if anyone is considering a comment like this to a new parent JUST DON’T

    Reply ↓
  95. UnfetteredUmbrellas*

    What’s the most helpful or “longest reaching impact” criticism you’ve received at work? Did the delivery method/medium impact significantly impact how you were able to receive it?

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I have sort of the reverse — a boss told me that I reminded her of her boss, which she meant as a compliment but which offended me greatly because I thought he was terrible, and really helped me adjust my style so that I wasn’t so much like him.

      Reply ↓
    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I don’t get a lot of “you’re doing X wrong” criticism–I do get “you could have handled [specific situation] better” occasionally, but not a ton of stuff pointing to patterns. The best piece of “here’s how you can improve overall” feedback I got from a manager was, “when you come to me with a problem, bring me a suggested solution or two. You’ve been here long enough to have some thoughts about the right way to handle a lot of situations, and I want to see you putting your knowledge and experience to use and showing initiative.” So I started doing that. It actually increased my confidence hugely to feel empowered to tell my manager, “I think we should do X” and hear a “yes, that’s right. Have at it.” And having to put some thought into things like that helped me get into a place where people would come to ME with questions about how to handle things, and I found myself able to help them. This, in turn, put me in a good position when I wanted to apply for a management role. It’s advice I often give to my own reports now.

      Reply ↓
  96. Resume Structure Help*

    I have a resume question. My husband works in manufacturing. He’s been in 3 different plants, in the same two roles over the past 15 years; he transfers to the new plant as a machine operator, then 1-2 years in, takes a Supply Chain Tech role. All the plants do something different – one makes the teapot paint, one adds the handle (but just the handle), and one packages the finished teapot. He’s now a supervisor in the teapot packaging plant, so I know how to list that role in a resume. How would you list the other roles, since they have the same title but different manufacturing equipment? There have been some key activities at each plant, like changeover reductions, line start ups, etc. Would you still do it in reverse chronological order?

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’d probably do it like a normal chronological resume, e.g.

      Teapot Packaging Plant, 2020-current
      Supervisor (2023-current)
      Supply Chain Tech (2021-2023)
      Machine Operator (2020-2021)
      – all the written stuff about accomplishments and his promotions
      – all the written stuff about accomplishments and his promotions
      – all the written stuff about accomplishments and his promotions

      Teapot Handle Plant, 2015-2020
      Supply Chain Tech (2017-2020)
      Machine Operator (2015-2017)
      – all the written stuff about accomplishments and his promotions
      – all the written stuff about accomplishments and his promotions
      – all the written stuff about accomplishments and his promotions

      Teapot Paint Plant, 2010-2015
      Supply Chain Tech (2012-2015)
      Machine Operator (2010-2012)
      – all the written stuff about accomplishments and his promotions
      – all the written stuff about accomplishments and his promotions
      – all the written stuff about accomplishments and his promotions

      Reply ↓
      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I should have specified: if it’s important that he mentions the specific machinery, he could either put that in the title or the written bit, e.g. “Machine Operator (Paint Brusher)” or “Machine Operator (Handle Affixer)” or “attained Level 3 status on Handle Affixer machine faster than anyone in company history” etc.

        Reply ↓
    2. EMP*

      I’d consider keeping the “job list” reverse chronological and highlighting the achievements like changeover reductions, but keep a separate “skills/experience/equipment” section where he can list the specific manufacturing equipment he has experience with (which I assume is relevant when job searching)

      Reply ↓
  97. Second Breakfast*

    I have an interview next week! Yay! However, I also have two nasty looking burns on my hand thanks to my wood stove. The interview is on Zoom, so I can probably just keep my hand out of sight. However, I’m curious how I should handle the situation in an in person interview. Don’t mention it? Give a brief explanation if I see someone looking at it? Wear professional looking gloves? Cover it with bandages? (Unfortunately, thanks to the size and position of the burns, that might be even more obvious than the original injury)

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      a) The less attention you call to it the better. So bandages at most.
      b) Adjust your camera in advance and test it.
      c) Most importantly – don’t overestimate the resolution of a zoom call.

      Reply ↓
    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      For in-person, would it be painful to shake hands? I think I’d acknowledge it with light-hearted quip like, “please excuse my hands! My wood stove did a number on them this weekend.”

      Reply ↓

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