It’s the Friday open thread!
The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.
* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.
I’m a government employee in Group A and work closely with SubGroup A. The head of SubGroup A (Jane) and I are the same rank, both reporting to Group A’s lead, Tina. I regularly advise Jane and prepare a recurring correspondence packet for her to send out. Recently, Jane assigned a contractor, Paul, to assist. Paul reports to someone under Jane.
Paul is relentless about follow-ups. He constantly pings me on Slack and email, always phrased as a question, but it feels like he’s trying to “manage upward” by making hints like “giving Tina enough time” or “seeing if you have any questions.” I’ve only worked with him twice, but it’s already frustrating. I know I leave plenty of time for Tina to complete this (it takes 5–30 minutes max).
I don’t have supervisory experience and once came across as too harsh with an admin assistant, so I want to handle this diplomatically. What’s a polite but firm way to set boundaries with Paul without seeming rude or punitive?
I’d consider asking Tina directly if she has any concerns about your timeliness and let her deal with Paul.
Yep. Two questions to Tina:
1. does something about her workflow now make it essential that she get your materials earlier, and if so, when should that internal deadline be?
2. regardless of that answer: has she asked Paul to recontact you X times every cycle, starting on Y days before? If so, could she countetmand that, as it’s needlessly disruptive to have him trying to micromanage your task completion? If not, could she clarify his role to him, and find more for him to do, that doesn’t involve him explaining your functions to you, and trying to manage your schedule?
TBH, it’s extremely possible for a thing to take 15 minutes, and still be wanted 24 or 48 hours before a deadline! Deadline dayfor this task may be very busy for her. So lead with the offer of respecting an earlier internal deadline. And then ask her to call Paul off your case.
How much time are you giving them to do their stuff? Like just because it take 10-30 minutes doesn’t mean its appropriate to send it just 1 hr before it due.
Also is it possible that they are a getting more pushback lately to get this packet out sooner?
I ask all this because I have been in your shoes before and in Paul’s shoes. Even though the client is grumpy that they haven’t got XYZ yet, I can’t even send it before I get my piece.
In the end, I just had a meeting with all people and setup internal deadlines so it was fair to all.
I give them anywhere from 2-4 business days. I’m confident that this is a “Paul” issue because I actually know someone who outright quit due to his onslaught of questions. Jane is not what I would call a micromanager at all, and she’s very laid back.
In that case it sounds like a more global issue of Paul being hard to work with. I’d sit down with Jane and/or Paul’s boss and lay out the global issue.
This sounds annoying, but it also sounds like he’s two rungs below both you and Jane on the corporate ladder and working on a new task. In his place, I’d probably also follow up a bit the first few times I worked on something to make sure that it what I was delivering was clear or on time. His anxieties about that aren’t really yours to deal with and I think if it continues it’s worth mentioning to Jane.
But I think you also have standing to just address it yourself since you’re at the same level as his grandboss. Presuming that you and Jane have been working on this correspondence packet without issue prior to Paul being assigned, I feel like you’re well within your rights to say “Paul, for the sake of expediting this process, please assume I know how much time to give Tina and that if I have any questions about anything on your end, I will ask.”
Maybe that’s too harsh, but if you and Jane have been putting this packet together without issue or complaint from Tina the whole time, then it’s weird that he’s jumping in with questions/comments that presume you aren’t capable of assembling the packet. Maybe it’s just the anxiety I mentioned off the top, but he needs to know how it comes across. (If you were in a mentorship position with him, I might suggest a different approach like “Paul, when you remind me to leave time for Tina to review or ask me if I have any questions about the work, it comes across as you thinking I’m incapable of doing this work that I was doing long before you started working on it.”)
This is a great point. with someone that much further down the reporting chain from me, I feel confortable being (politely) directive. “Paul, I will get you the report by X day. I know you are trying to help. Until Y day, the mousy helpful thing you can do is to not send me any reminder. Thank you for your support.”
We are currently working on a major computer system change, and one of the folks in the distant city where the home office is located is behaving similar to Paul. For him, we are considering it as not knowing workplace norms. (He’s been asking for the same info from multiple people without letting us know who he has asked).
It is frustrating because we are fewer people with more connections within our group and other tasks. I suspect that the home office is much more siloed.
Can you reach out to the contract manager? It may seem like overkill, but they are the ones that can actually discipline him; bring up performance issues.
#1) I would not reply right away, if that’s at all possible without subjecting yourself to a million frustrating “bink” noises (I don’t have Slack so I don’t know how those notifications work). Slow down the response time so that he doesn’t get immediate feedback. Maybe answer him once per day.
#2) I would not engage with his little hints and excuses.
#3) Since he is presumably using his questions as a pretense to drop these hints/excuses, engage only with the question and in a way that limits the incentive for future questions. Point him to the documentation, explain that he should be asking someone else this question, or tell him that the question was answered in the meeting, or that the question is irrelevant.
Remember: boundaries are about setting limits to *your* actions, not about achieving some outcome about getting other people to change their actions. If he keeps pestering you but you hold firm and don’t reply, you’ve set the boundary that you will not respond to pestering.
Agree with #1, just slow your response time, be short with it, or decide to just ignore.
How is Paul supposed to assist? Is he more of a Product Owner or is he more in charge of doing the work?
If Paul is supposed to be a PO or doing coordination, then maybe it makes sense to have a meeting about how you like to communicate and how often he should ping you. Could be worth discussing with Tina first.
If Paul is supposed to be doing the work, then asking him to stop the communication might be the way to go.
This is an excellent question. What is Paul’s role for this?
Paul is a contractor. Is it possible that his actual employer has requirements for demonstrating follow-up or other metrics that are invisible to you? That’s if his contract isn’t with your organization and instead is with some other firm. I’m just wondering if he’s responding to requirements beyond your organization.
I might go for a pretty casual tone for a first try: “I have the cadence down on this and don’t need the reminders, thanks.” Then don’t respond to any more of them.
If he’s doing it on everything the two of you interact around it would need to be more of a conversation about communication flow and what’s actually constructive, helpful and necessary. Or if it’s not worth the bandwidth then just ignore all of that. Send a separate note of your own that’s your update on your timeline with your choice of subject line if it’s email so you don’t go totally radio silent, e.g., “FYI on project I’m leading.” You can signal what kind of communications are appropriate by just doing them proactively.. Getting cc’d if that’s the norm when the packet goes in would be another way of signaling “I’ve got this and you don’t need to keep pinging me.” Or better yet if you don’t want him looped into follow-up conversations via email forward it to him separately after you’ve transmitted it, sent as an FYI “for your records” kind of way if he needs to know the packet contents.
I’m so sorry you’ve all been tossed in this dumpster fire. It really sounds like they’re throwing everything they can think of and seeing what sticks. And if the chaos makes employees leave preemptively, all the better. You deserve so much better than this.
It sounds like Paul is just anxious and wants to make sure he’s not blamed for dropping the ball. And if he’s a contractor, he may not have as many things on his plate to worry about. I’d just assure him you have everything you need to complete the task.
I had a coworker like Paul and he was trying to position himself as the most competent adult in the room, complete with throwing everyone else under the bus if necessary. It was exhausting. His goal was to make us tired and run ragged with the questions.
For the non-federal employees here, I present a summary of the absolute bizarro nonsense that are these “OPM emails”.
Email the first: we get an email with some text on it to reply YES if we got it and a hyperlink to OPM. It claims to come from HR at OPM. This email looks like your typical phishing attempt, and so everyone I know either marked it as spam, marked it as phishing, or just ignored it. A few hours later, we get emails from leadership that this is a legit OPM email and so we should reply to it. I replied yes to it. The email bounced back as undeliverable.
Email the second: we get a followup email very similar to the first, except this one also takes the time to (very insultingly) chide us about how to recognize phishing and be careful of emails with links in them. Like the first, this one does not use any logos or styles or formatting that you would expect from official emails. It wants us to reply yes to it. I ignore it.
Important to understand: These emails are not signed. It’s still extremely unclear who they are coming from. This is supposedly an attempt to create a way for “HR at OPM” to email all of us, except there already are ways to send emails out to everyone, it’s just that to do that, you have to follow the process. This is an attempt to circumvent proper procedure and we have no idea who they’re actually coming from and how official they are. I cannot stress enough how much they look and sound like phishing attempts.
Important to understand for Email The Third: OPM is not our boss, dude. Unless you work for OPM (my heartfelt sympathies go out to you in these times), OPM has nothing to do with you. Someone on a call asked where OPM is in our chain of command. The answer is: it’s not.
Now we come to Email The Third, which you have heard about. It’s badly organized, confusing, and looks and sounds, again, like spam. It isn’t clear where these emails are coming from, who is writing them, who is authorizing them, who has signed off on them, and who is behind them. It is so very, very, very spammy that I got no less than four (4) emails assuring me it’s a legitimate email.
Spoiler: anything that’s actually a legitimate “all employees” email does not require repeated reassurances that it’s not some hacker who got access to some email database (and the ability to circumvent IT data protections) and is sending out 1990s email chain letters. Shoutout to 1990s email chain letters, you were at least entertaining.
Also, not for nothing, but this isn’t 1) how you resign, 2) how you retire, and 3) how an actual Reduction In Force is conducted.
Nevertheless, this is, somehow, supposedly, an actual email from OPM, with a policy that they have dreamed up. Who is “they” and what gives them the authority to do this? We have run this question up the actual chain of command and gotten a lot of “yeah we don’t know” in response.
This is not how things work.
Now today we come to Email The Fourth, which claims to be a FAQ about “deferred resignation” (aka quitting). It’s written in a condescending, yet chatty tone. It provides no clear information about anything. It doesn’t have a hyperlink, just tells you to search the OPM site. It’s still unsigned.
Federal employees, I’m sorry to tell you, the trolls got access to our email addresses and are sending out nonsense.
I honestly can’t even tell what’s “supposed” to happen with all those folks sending “yes” responses to OPM… which isn’t in their chain of command… and who doesn’t know who they are… and is that really a firm commitment to quit? LOL. Who is organizing this? How it is supposed to get back to their actual supervisors, who are the people they’re supposed to quit to? How does any of this work?
Surprise, no one thought of that, because this is essentially phishing being done by someone who has access to federal government systems. It remains to be seen what’s going to happen next, and what Email The Fifth will contain.
And meanwhile, leadership is spending a bunch of time that they should be spending on their actual jobs, instead trying to figure out what’s going on, having a lot of meetings (meeting agenda: “we made all these people remote because we didn’t have office space for them, where does OPM think we’re going to find office space, on the moon? We don’t have any budget for this.”), and having a lot of town halls to talk to the employees about it. Instead of doing their job.
Where I come from, we call that waste, fraud, and abuse.
Thank you for this in-the-trenches report. I admit I was a little confused by the news stories, but now I see that the reason the stories don’t make much sense is because it’s a dumpster fire. I’m so sorry you’re (all) having to deal with this maddening uncertainty.
That’s Trumpsterfire, not dumpsterfire. Dumpsters are useful.
I don’t understand what your message is about. I’m also a non-federal employee.
There have been a bunch of stories this week; the short version is that Elon Musk is trying to get a bunch of people to voluntarily resign, but he doesn’t really have the authority to DO that. And it’s causing chaos.
And if this is idea of efficiency at the doge, well, good luck to all of us!
And from serenity now’s run down, it looks like Musk also wants to throw around some insults and blame at random government employees (can an unnamed someone anonymously DARVO thousands of people they don’t know, all at once?
ie “this one also takes the time to (very insultingly) chide us about how to recognize phishing and be careful of emails with links in them.” It’s like, no dude, the recipients of your garbled, poorly thought out blast emails are not to blame for the fact that your garbled, poorly thought out blast emails came across as spam/spear phishing. Don’t try to distract us from your mistakes by throwing blame at your audience.
Don’t forget the casual degradation of federal jobs in this gem: “The way to greater American prosperity is encouraging people to move from lower productivity jobs in the public sector to higher productivity jobs in the private sector” Because there will definitely be jobs for all the would-be-ex federal employees at better paying companies…
Consensus in my corner of my agency is, it’s got all the hallmarks of a classic scam. Don’t take the bait.
There probably will be jobs, with lower pay and lousy benefits, at their buddies Beltway bandit companies who will give kickbacks by the truckload to them
Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if that is the master plan
What the what? Greater American prosperity? This is Great Leader rhetoric.
This is from Facebook yesterday, and I can’t speak to its truthfulness
“the OPM has been infiltrated and “hacked” so isn’t really the OPM anymore. The management has been pushed aside…
From an anonymous poster in the OPM (Office of Personnel Management). “I’m a current employee at the Office of Personnel Management (OPM). This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. I’m posting this because people need to know what’s going on at OPM. I’ve been an OPM employee for nearly a decade and a Federal Employee for almost 20 years. I’ve never witnessed anything even remotely close to what’s happening right now.
In short, there’s a hostile takeover of the federal civil service. Let me say this in no uncertain terms — OPM has been compromised and taken over. The very backbone of American Government, the HR of all HR in the U.S. Government has been taken over by outside politicals. In just five days, they managed to push aside dozens of non-political, career civil servants who were there specifically to prevent the civil service from becoming the President’s henchmen.
The current Acting Director, Charles (Chuck) Ezell is a low-level branch chief. He’s the friendliest “yes man” you’ll ever meet. He never says no. It’s clear they pushed aside all the high-level non political civil servants who refused to do Donald Trump’s bidding, until they found Chuck. Under his name, they’ve sent numerous requests to all the agencies to collect information on gov’t employees that they see as a threat to their agenda. Instructions say to send these lists to Amanda Scales. But Amanda is not actually an OPM employee, she works for Elon Musk. She wasn’t even properly cleared by OPM Personnel Security.
Our CIO, Melvin Brown, (also a non political career public servant) was pushed aside just one week into his tenure because he refused to setup email lists to send out direct communications to all career civil servants. Such communications are normally left up to each agency. Instead, an on-prem (on-site) email server was setup. Someone literally walked into our building and plugged in an email server to our network to make it appear that emails were coming from OPM. It’s been the one sending those various “test” message you’ve all seen.
We think they’re building a massive email list of all federal employees to generate mass RIF notices down the road. The non-political civil servants here at OPM are watching helplessly as our government is being systematically dismantled bit by bit. Even the IGs are being fired to prevent them from investigating the numerous whistleblower complaints we’ve filed.
Please share this and tell the world that OPM is not the bad guy. We’re just as helpless to stop this as the rest of our fellow public servants. Hopefully someone out there can help us, but it’s looking pretty grim.”
I’m pretty sure this was also posted on the FedNews subreddit yesterday
A random person can walk into the building and plug a server into your network?? I don’t even know what to say…
No, no they can’t. That was unheard of before this week. Now every government employee’s information is on an unsecured server.
There have been news articles (from legit sources) that note that Scales (a former xAI employee) has been named OPM’s chief of staff.
Apparently, they did an *excellent* job of announcing that, as actual OPM employees had no idea who she was.
And for further eyerolls, if you go to the OPM website, go to About Us, then click on the Careers link and then Opportunities in the left sidebar, mid-page you’ll see a paragraph on Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Accessibility, which talks about how having a diverse workforce is the best way to deliver results. I guess they haven’t gotten around to wiping the site yet.
So OPM hasn’t even removed their own DEIA statement but made everyone else do so… SMH
Very good job describing it.
The one thing that my Department has done is they are sending emails each time we get an email from OPM that the emails are legit. Because people know that the government doesn’t have the funds to pull this off, today’s Department email says that the appropriations are there to fund this offer. Suspect.
The other thing that needs to be noted is that the “offer” changes with every new email and FAQ. At first it was written that you’d have to work until September but could telework and then you’d quit. And since then they’ve back tracked and said that you wouldn’t have to work. The FAQs are also peppered with insulting language about taking a vacation! And that you should get a productive job in the private sector.
Why are they doing this? To not have to go through the process of following the law and doing a proper Reduction in Force or Voluntary Leave. If President Elon wants to reduce Federal workers, follow the law.
Yes–they think they can sidestep the requirements. It’s appalling.
The dumb part is if they offered a nice, normal early retirement plan, they’d get people to do this.
There’s word in my agency that people are taking this offer. But the increase of frantic emails from Elon make me think they haven’t gotten enough takers.
Also good to remember that when Mush pulled this same nonsense at Twitter, many people who accepted the leave for a buyout got stiffed because EM didn’t follow through to pay them what he promised.
Yup. $500M worth of unpaid severance.
The other guy doesn’t pay his bills, either.
I’m trying to figure out where the IT Security dept is.
They would be stopping this, but maybe it’s blowing up their logs also.
Most of them are way outside of any other agency/chain of command.
I think it’s simple: They are ignorant and do not know what they are doing, but are convinced that they can fake it and it will eventually somehow work.
And also spreading “Fear Uncertainty Doubt / Dismay” is a tactic that serves a purpose for those looking to undermine, destabilize or drive a particular behavior.
At the very least, it’s distracting all these federal government employees from doing their actual jobs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt
I’d amend that slightly to they don’t *care* if it’s not the proper process or procedure; they want to know what they can get away with.
They don’t even know what they don’t know. A real life example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. I picture a group of screaming monkeys throwing crap at the wall and seeing what will stick. Zeus help us all.
Following the law or procedure wouldn’t panic, confuse and dismay people, or undermine our civic institutions the way they want to. When it comes to the Trump/Musk administration, remember:
–Cruelty is the point
–Exhaustion, confusion and despair is the point
–Destroying our institutions and trust in each other is the point
This isn’t a strong-man tactic to push through a political agenda; there are more effective ways of doing that. The political agenda is an excuse to install a strongman in our government and undermine institutions that could remove him.
Elon makes the laws.
Is this related to NWS employees suddenly getting waves of email from randos with inappropriate and/or hilarious subject lines because someone posted an email to social media that went over a newly created, unofficial, and unsecured listserv and trolls immediately seized the chance to spam the list?
Yep. My understanding is Elon set up the email list in a not secure way and that allows people to Spam the NWS list.
I mean, I feel bad for anyone who has to trawl through all that to get to their actual, legit, work-related messages, but this is such an excellent example of both FAFO and of the sabotage field manual in action (if email had been a thing in 1944).
As soon as I saw the Fork in the Road email – I recognized it from being the same type of email from when Elon took over Twitter.
The email today – which basically insinuated that all federal employees are low-production value and we should become high-production value by going corporate broke my heart. I don’t wanna be at work today. I’ve had to do a lot to protect my mental health this last 11 days.
All of the other emails that keep claiming the emails are real just further hurts.
I love my job. I love that I get to serve people. I am so heartbroken right now.
I would ask when Trump and Elon are going to learn you can’t treat government employment like for-profit private sector employment, but I’m afraid that answer is “never”
I suspect that Elon will be the first to be purged for failing to transform the vision to reality.
I cannot wait for that day. I mean, there are other, better, more important days I want, but I’ll still enjoy it when he’s cast out.
I predict Elon will be gone by April, and that will help the mess only a little.
I’m so sorry. Your production is not your value. Thank you for your service.
I am not a gov employee, but I am also heartbroken. I’ve been over here mourning the American experiment. It had a good run. Maybe something better can rise from the ashes, but I doubt I’ll get to see it in my lifetime.
So much solidarity. Not only is it actually hard to do our jobs right now, with the flurry of vague EOs that no one knows how to comply with coupled with threatening emails from interim leadership (?!!!), but also being called “low production” and told that from now on we need to be “reliable, loyal, trustworthy, and to strive for excellence”, it just makes me want to cry.
I love my job. I’m good at it. I work with fantastic, hard-working people who take their duty to the American people really seriously.
We deserve better than this.
One could probably make a good buck selling “Fork you, Elon” T-shirts.
You’re not alone. I’m not even a Fed, I’m just a wife of a VA doc who’s doing a 60-hr/week every-day-in-hospital inpatient stint, which I’m supporting by doing extra kid drop-off and pickup and laundry and etc (because he’s a competent contributing partner when he’s at home) and by God we all know he could’ve been making far more money in the private sector but he believes in the f€&*ing mission of the Veterans Administration! And to get this insulting email describing his work with American veterans as “low productivity” — and to think of all the air traffic controllers who got this email while working overtime or short -staffed…. and then hear this slander about “government workers never came back after COVID” from ignorant random people in the rest of life…
I’m stress-consuming sugar and again, I’m not even a Fed.
Honestly my fondest wish would be for every air traffic controller in America to accept this offer and walk out on Feb 6. Not a strike, just accepting this deal that they were offered, fair and square. How long would Musk’s idiocy last. I do believe the ATCs are the only group who could possibly do this. Literally grounding America would have an enormous and visible impact that suicide prevention among vets etc just wouldn’t (sadly) have.
“Honestly my fondest wish would be for every air traffic controller in America to accept this offer and walk out on Feb 6.”
No one should wish for a walk out. I’m a Vet who uses the VA and if there were a solid walkout across the board, they’re saving themselves (which they do have to think of) but some of us would die… There has to be a balance and that’s working through our Reps, the existing forces/processes and hope for the best.
I think anon for this was hoping for an air traffic control walkout, not VA walkout.
Yes, that’s what I was hoping for. My spouse is there at the VA (right now in fact) and won’t leave because he’s serving people who, yes, literally would die without staff there to serve them. If air traffic controllers all said beforehand they would leave, planes would be grounded, no one would fly, it would be an extraordinary inconvenience that would not last long. We’ve been through it before (right after 9/11). The few emergency flights that would need to happen could still happen, with such little traffic in the skies.
A walkout would be more than saving themselves. The walkout would also be for you and everyone else at the mercy of vile people. This monstrosity is not going to simply vanish. It’s going to hurt millions if not billions whether we fight them or not. Better to go out fighting,
Unfortunately I don’t think elmo & friends care about people dying, and would welcome the suffering of people they are supposed to be serving.
They’re taking away the existing processes, though. That’s the whole point of RIF for the government. Who do you complain to, when the complaints department is closed?
I’m so sorry, Anon Fed. So many of us are grateful for civil servants and trying to figure out how to have your back. We want to stand up for you and protect your ability to do your job. We want to fight.
Thanks for this little peek inside at the madness, from a non-fed. My company does “phishing training” where they send out fake phishing emails to train us what to look for so I can easily imagine how much these emails look so much like phishing!
And, for what it’s worth, this internet stranger knows that US Federal Government employees do good work and have important jobs! I like USDA food inspections, FAA air traffic control, and all of the other things I don’t even know about but make my life better in the background.
My company does these tests too! The more likely you are to be targeted by outside bad actors, the more test emails they send you to practice reporting (and lucky me, I get almost a test a day…).
Just want to say thank you for sharing and I’m so sorry you all are dealing with this nonsense. Your work matters!
My good friend got a federal job in October. He said at last, I’ve got a stable job! (crying emoji) (I’ve been using that a lot lately :-(
My Agency has been radio silent on basically everything. We’ll get these emails and wonder if they’re real, but not have any guidance on anything. The plus side is I can ignore them, but the downside is being in the dark.
Thank you.
I can’t even tell you how irritated I am to keep getting these blasted emails. I just keep reporting them as phishing. They haven’t provided any real details about this and it’s just an attempt to round up as many as possible to fire them. Tbh, anyone even seriously considering it must be planning to retire very soon or is just not very smart.
I think this is the way to go. Just ignore it. If the goal is to rile you up through incompetence and fear then you can just choose to not engage as much as possible. Make them do the actual real hard work of whatever it is they’re trying to do. Don’t comply in advance and don’t comply to unclear directives.
Wow, thank you for sharing. What a shitshow.
Also, where is the supposed severance money going to come from? The federal government has Procedures (and procedures about procedures) for everything, especially money. It is spam in that way because ain’t nobody getting paid. I guarantee it.
At an All Hands that could mostly be described as a WTF Q&A with a sprinkling of venting and group therapy, someone referred to That Email as the Forked Tongue. It was a giggle we all needed very badly.
Would be a shame if that’s how it got referenced everywhere… ;)
Recommendation for others: your leadership hands are tied by what they can say and recommend. However, if they so happen to get anonymous questions for the Q&A, they can read it out and give people things to consider. Thus:
Leadership: a question has come in regarding how this will be funded/who authorized this/if management and budget is on board/if any positions will be backfilled/if anyone proofread these emails/if we can take back our yeaes. I’m afraid we don’t have an answer at this time.
I’m on team ignore/deny/defend as long as possible
The chaos is the intended result.
As a fed, this is directed to those out there who believed Trump’s rhetoric on the lazy, corrupt federal worker who wasted tax payers money. The amount of lost productivity this week from employees being threatened to quit or be fired is mind boggling. The amount of money it will cost to bring everyone back to the office and find space for them is unfathomable. Do you know how much money the federal government saved by having their employees telework? Money on infrastructure, utilities, services and support personnel? Please, please don’t believe him. These people are performing vital services. They are literally keeping us safe and alive.
Freelancers who do one-off projects, do you write your own contracts from scratch? Use a form template? Rely on the company to provide one?
My work has recently expanded from “local companies who deal by handshake” to “national brands that I will never meet in person” and I am floundering a bit. Thanks for any suggestions.
Probably not best practice but if it’s up to me, I write a bid, not a contract, which shows what I will do for how much. If things aren’t going well I will bail, on a one-off. If the employer wants a contract, I’ll review it and probably end up striking a good amount.
I’m at a small nonprofit and we use contractors pretty frequently. we have a contract template and I love it when our contract or are ok using our standard because it means I don’t have to review their terms (eg interpret legalese)! each scope of work is custom, but I’ve gotten more comfortable with writing those over the years.
I write my own but I have a standard set of services I provide so I have template language for each possible section and then drop in the right one for each job. There’s a couple things I will customize (the actual cost/hours estimate, who I report to at the client, etc.). That said my clients are generally small businesses that don’t have the time or legal resources to make their own freelancer contracts so they are usually very happy that I handle that for them.
Decade of freelancing here! I do not use a *contract* but a letter of agreement. It’s a basic form that is then completed according the the project specifics.
The various segments are: 1) Agreement between me (Editor) and name (Client). 2) Recitals: I’m who/what; Client is who/what; agreement is to establish mutually satisfactory arrangement. 3) Services: specifying what I’m going to do. 4) Provisions: What Editor acknowledges, what Client is to acknowledge. 5) Protection of Confidential Info. 6)Estimate. 7) Deadline. 8) Payment process. 9) Term of Agreement. 10) Approval of agreement, beginning with “entered into in accordance with the laws of the State of …” Then area for each to date/sign.
No doubt there are quite a few sample agreements to google, then develop one that works for you. Also not a bad idea to run it by an attorney, just to make sure you’ve covered all the pertinent bases for your field.
The company provides the contract, in my experience.
For invoices, some have a blank they want you to use, and some are happy to use whatever basic invoice you send in.
Lawyer here. Please please please have your own template!!! Whether you call it a contract, letter of agreement, term sheet, whatever, having your own template forces you to think through the key terms and then decide what terms you’d prefer. Even if the other side wants to negotiate, you’re starting from a place of strength if you’re providing your own contract. I would also highly advise that you have a lawyer draft it, instead of trying to do it yourself or buy a template online. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve have to deal with issues that stemmed from diy agreements that aren’t fit for purpose.
Ditto!
National brands typically have standard contracts (at least in my field of expertise).
Having said that, as a contractor I always relied on a set of clauses that protected me (such as partial upfront payment, penalties for late payment, maximum number of revisions allowed in deliverables). If the client’s template didn’t included the same provisions, I usually managed to get them added.
My suggestion is to do some online research in forums and blogs of successful professionals in your area to learn what potential pitfalls exist in your line of work and to obtain sample contracts as a reference. In parallel contact your clients to see if you’ll need to submit a template of your own or they’ll want to use a corporate template that you’ll review and amend if necessary.
I have a contract template I’ve used for about 25 years, it is a Memorandum of Agreement and hits several points:
1. Clarity of the parties (name address etc. which can be corp)
2. Ownership of the completed work (especially useful for creative work)
3. Venue and procedure for disputes. I use the American Arbitration Association, with the home state as my venue. In 25 years, I have only had to use the AAA once to force a non-paying client to pay. It works.
For technical work, or repeat work, occasionally I simply submit a Work Order. I have a template for that that includes:
1. Name address of company plus name address and contact info of the client contact who has contracted the work.
2. CLEAR description of the work to be done, with bullet points if necessary
3. Recognition of ownership of the completed work.
4. Deadline for completion, which also notes deadline can be adjusted if agreed in writing by both parties.
5. Payment and terms. Sometimes the work gets an advance, sometimes it’s 30 days net and I will tack on a late payment fee (and these days an early payment discount – something I learned about on AAM!). This will also include the contact info for the payment party – you want to know how to get into the “system” for vendors, a process the client should start as early as possible as this takes time.
Hope this helps!
Almost forgot – under #2, or as an additional point, you should also write in what you expect to get from the client. For example, are they supplying artwork? Raw copy? This is also the place to put a deadline on how they will handle reviews – give them say one week to reply on edits. Also a good place to state how many re-workings of the project they can get before an additional charge (for time and materials etc.)
Related to this morning’s letter – I am starting a new job (fully remote) and I see they list their working hours as 8:30 to 5:30, with an hour lunch. Haven’t seen that schedule since I was a college worker. Is it just me or is it hard to picture fully remote office workers – in a national company, meaning multiple time zones – actually taking an hour off the clock every day for lunch? I’m guessing there will still be urgent emails during my “hour off” and I’ll be expected to be responsive … I doubt my new boss would be happy if I ignore her on slack for an hour because I’m on lunch break?
The cynical part of me wonders if this is a petty way to grub more hours from workers by essentially making 9 hour days the absolute minimum.
To be clear, my plan is just to start at 8:30 and observe the culture without making waves, as I need this job. Maybe most people don’t really start at 8:30 or it’s not closely tracked. Maybe they really do defend a full hour “off.” Just wondering if anyone is familiar with this set up.
My hours are 8-5 with an hour lunch, but I rarely take the full hour. No one is really tracking my hours, but I still feel like I need to adhere to them strictly, despite being exempt.
I’m a remote worker and we really do take an hour lunch. We are flexible, so people take their break at different times around noon, so not exactly by the clock.
If you don’t want to take the hour and would rather be 9-5, is that cool or would that be a big problem? It’s nice to get an hour mid-day but I’d rather start later.
I’ve never been in a workplace where they didn’t expect you to take at least half an hour lunch. When I was staff (hourly) it was required, you were not allowed to work 8 hours w/o taking an unpaid break. You probably need to check with HR or your boss.
Yes, for non-exempt hourly staff that is common I think. But I’m exempt from overtime, salaried.
I’m salaried, it’s still the law that we take lunch.
When I was a manager, I would be a tad annoyed by this request. Why? It’s low stakes until someone asks about it, but most people end up taking the break without realizing it. It’s a weird blind spot in human nature, where people insist they worked straight through the day and don’t mentally register that their phone breaks and coffee run and eating at their desk without actually working was the lunch break. So I always told people to just take the actual break, rest their brain, and enjoy it.
Hmm. I’m a tad annoyed by starting at 8:30, although if I have to suck it up I certainly will. It just seems unnecessary. All my office jobs have always started at 9, and in fact my current company has core hours starting at 10 and a “no morning meetings” guideline. It’s not like I’m serving clients who are lined up at 8:30 or something.
It might not matter. My job says 8:30 to 5 but I work 9 to 6 or 7, mostly in fits and starts
That’s kind of how I’m hoping it shakes out.
I’ve never had a job start at 9.
I thought the whole 9-5 thing had gone by the wayside. Office hours officially start at 8 at my current job, and the 4 before that. Now at some of them there was flexibility with start and end times depending, but yeah… 8-4:30 with an hour lunch is pretty standard in my part of the U.S.
Are you in the western half of the US? I know when I lived in Mountain time 30 years ago the standard for those places that had set work hours was usually 8-4 or 8-5 if an unpaid lunch was mandated to have more overlap with folks to the east. In Eastern or Central time zones 9 has been more standard, but as time has gone on the number of places (for office work) requiring set hours has significantly diminished. Flexible is most common, although some places have core hours, most often 10 or 11 to 2 or 3 (I’ve also seen 10-4 but not recently).
And how can you tell if someone is eating at their desk without actually working? Plenty of people work through lunch or eat while they work, and a phone or coffee break occasionally doesn’t equal a lunch break.
Sounds pretty common to me to have that schedule. If people aren’t going to take their allotted breaks that’s on them but I don’t really recommend working for free. I wouldn’t assume your boss expects you to be available at her beck and call but that’s something you’ll learn once you start.
yeah, I’m fully remote and salaried, and I definitely take my lunch break. I don’t know what I want, and nobody would expect me to be immediately responsive to an email or message, especially when they can fix it for my team status that I’m away from my desk then.
* why I wouldn’t, not what I want
I’ve been seeing that exact schedule growing in popularity recently. I also don’t like it, but I can’t really afford to be picky in this job market.
As for how strongly that lunch hour is respected, it really depends on the office culture. I’ve been in places where lunchtime is Sacred, and in places where you’re still expected to keep one eye on your inbox at all times. Going in and observing how it works day to day is your best bet.
While I don’t work fully remote, I do work remotely a few times a month. We have regular working hours like yours. With my hour lunch, I often divide it up differently than I do when I’m in the office. In office, I might leave for that hour. Or sit and read for an hour. When I’m working from home, I might take 15 minutes to walk the dogs, 15 minutes a bit later to switch some laundry, then 20-30 minutes to sit and eat. I think you can probably be a little more flexible with that hour, especially because you may have to respond to an email more quickly and can’t fully disconnect for that full hour.
Can you just start at 9 instead? 8:30 start is really not my favorite, and my boss isn’t even in my time zone so it’s stupid early for her. I’m hoping it will be mutually understood that I’m “waiving” my lunch without it being a big problem.
Probably just have to feel it out. I manage a team where most of my direct reports are three hours ahead of me. I don’t care if they start at 7:00 or 10:00, as long as they are available for clients and colleagues during “core” hours which are not officially defined by my organization, but in my mind is 10:30am – 4:00pm ET. A few direct reports have school drop-offs in the morning and I told them to just block off their calendars during that time. Give it a month or two and see if the 8:30 start was just a formality on the offer letter or if there is some meeting or coverage requirement at that time.
I would ask your boss to explain how the hours work with the different time zones. It’s possible that what’s on the website is a simplified explanation and in reality people can have different hours if it works better for their team.
Then this job is not for you. The hours are the hours. Labor laws are labor laws.
Perhaps you have the option of negotiating a different start time, but breaks are legal requirements whether you work remotely or in person. So you could start at 9 and work til 6. Would you be asking this about an in person position? I’m fully remote, people do take their full one hour lunch, and others respect that time. No one is expected to respond on their lunch hour.
Federal law does not require breaks (except for nursing). Of course, state laws vary, but none of them that do mandate meal breaks require an hour — they call for 30 minutes minimum for shifts of a given length. So this can be a workplace policy but may or may not be a law thing.
Yeah what, I’ve worked various office jobs for 20 years now and never had mandatory breaks in my life.
Yikes. I’ve worked office jobs for a few more decades than that and there have always been state mandated breaks. A 30 minute unpaid lunch and two 15 minute paid breaks have been the standard in every job my entire working life.
One hour lunches are a painful waste of time when I could be off work 30 minutes sooner.
That’s normally what I do. Our hours are 8-5, and I just make sure I’m available until 5 so that if there are questions I can answer them. Sometimes I’ll just be gone the whole lunch hour, if I have something specific to take care of.
I worked fully remote from March 2020 to mid-2021 (because of COVID) and I took a full hour for lunch every day, just as I did when I was in the office. I mostly worked with people on-site but it was a large company with people in multiple time zones. The company overall had a pretty decent “your lunch hour is your time” culture so there were never any problems with not checking email/slack/teams/etc. between noon and 1pm.
All my remote workplaces have had 9- hour schedules with hour lunches and most people took it. Those that didn’t consistently were exempt. Sure, an urgent email may come in or your boss may send a ping, but that’s not unique to remote work and you don’t need to see to those things while on lunch.
I’m remote and work 8-4:30 with an hour lunch. Yes, I take my full hour of lunch. Yes, I start on my computer at 8 (earlier if my husband is out the door with the minis since he does daycare dropoff). Usually I eat lunch/go for a run at noonish but sometimes it’s 12:15 and sometimes it’s 11:45, and on hectic days it might be 1:30. I do usually bounce at 4:30 (sometimes earlier if I shorted myself lunch or started before 755) but that’s because I have the daycare pickup.
I work in a hybrid office with coworkers across several time zones, some of whom are fully remote. A lot of people take their full hour away from their desk. It’s not weird to ignore your email/slack/teams/etc if you are taking a break.
That said, you may find that the culture is more relaxed than it appears; officially my office’s hours are 8-4:30 but many of us flex those around and start a little earlier or later.
I have a friend who is a full time remote worker. The company has a time management program requiring that they log out of the company access for the full hour at lunch.
This seems like overthinking to me. I work remote, and I almost always step away for an hour during the day. I don’t clock my hours, but I think a reasonable workplace will understand that you’re not going to respond while you’re on your meal break, and if a Slack message comes in, you can answer it when you get back.
I take a full hour. I have for years. It started at a previous job. So much better than my 25 minutes I had previously.
The key for me is to physically go somewhere for lunch. It could be a park, running to the dry cleaners, etc. It has made a huge difference for my mental health and work/life balance.
I work remotely in CST and most of my coworkers are EST. So I work 7-4 CST with an hour lunch of my choosing. When I started, I was taking calls, so I log into an agent tracking system when I start, go into Project, then go into Lunch for an hour whenever I want/need, then back into Project for the rest of my day.
So yeah, watch what others do, but if it’s a professional salaried role, typically you’ll be left to manage your own lunch break time.
I’m in the UK on flexible hours, and I am penalised if I don’t sign out for at least 30 minutes between 12 and 2. This doesn’t suit me brilliantly, because 30 minutes is not enough to run an errand or get to anywhere off-premises for lunch, but I struggle to make my hours if I take more than 30. On the other hand I sometimes want to work through lunch or take a much later lunch if I am on deadline, and I can’t do that either. I just go with it! In previous jobs I’ve been used to lunch being exactly an hour, but I could take it earlier or later so long as it didn’t inconvenience colleagues. I would not be expected to be available and indeed would leave the building.
I’m in the UK and our company actually encourages us to have an email-free hour from 1-2 to get people to take lunch breaks. I think we’re required to take at least 30 minutes legally too. I always take an hour, I need that space away from my desk to relax and cook lunch.
We are 9-6 with an hour lunch and people are allowed and even encouraged to take it. I am quite senior so I’ll often cut out early if I don’t take my lunch. I’m sure there are places where it’s being used to get more work out of folks but… surely that kind of place would just expect people to stay late otherwise?
I work from home and usually take an hour for lunch. However, due to meetings across time zones, I occasionally have meetings during my usual lunchtime. I still take my lunch before or after my standard time, even if I have to split it into 30-minute increments. It usually takes me 30 minutes to walk and feed my dogs, then about 30 minutes to prep and eat lunch, read a little, and chill with my dogs before heading back to my home office.
I’m about to switch from a 7hr + 1hr lunch schedule to an 8hr + 1hr lunch and I definitely plan on taking the full hour. In my current 7+1 schedule, I often take half or work through it just because that’s easier, but with the addition of the extra hour of work in the new schedule, there’s no way I plan on doing free labour during that time.
I’m already making a list of things to occupy that time with, e.g. maybe there’s a TV show I watch every day at lunch, or time for some daily exercise, etc.
Huh. I am about 99% remote, and I take an hour lunch every day. I do unplug. And no one freaks out if people don’t respond to emails for an hour. When I start lunch, I set my Slack status to “lunch” and mark myself as away. When I come back, I go back to available. It’s really not a big deal. Then again, my office culture is not one of constant, instant availability 100% of the time. It’s possible yours is.
Well, my real preference would be to start at 9, as I do in my current role, work through lunch, and leave at 5 (-15ish). I’m just going to show up and observe if this would be totally out of touch with the norms of the office and my boss, obviously.
Why not ask beforehand?
Current Job had an 8-5, everyone takes lunch from 12-1 thing in their employee handbook.
I’ve been working 7-4 for decades, so I asked during negotiations about that (and was told it was fine).
All due caveats to nature of the job / team / truly mandatory shit, etc.
(I do take an hour lunch)
I think if you really want to start at 9, you should be prepared to finish at 6.
I work 8-4 and take a full hour for lunch. If there’s something urgent going on I’ll keep an eye on Slack and MAYBE eat at my desk. But overall I do take the full 60 minutes and no one has an issue with it.
My schedule is 9-5:30 with an hour unpaid lunch (we have a 37.5 hour work week). We are salaried non-exempt and remote and I definitely take my full hour lunch. Other people in my department are 8-4:30, and we also have people in different time zones. Usually someone is available if something is truly urgent, but it’s rare that something is so urgent it can’t wait for someone to get back from lunch.
I work remotely part of the time, and it’s flexible. I often take a half hour lunch, then log off at 5 if nothing is going on or if I’m in the office and want to grab an earlier train. Sometimes I take 45 minutes or an hour. It really depends on what my brain is telling me it needs. And it’s not always at 12:00 — if I wait until 1:00, the second half of the day doesn’t seem so long. Plus, if I’m onsite and going out, the lunch rush is usually over by then. ;)
If you want to adjust your start time, I’d ask your manager. My old boss let me do that at TechJob as long as I was available during core hours, but it might be different at your workplace. I’d see what other people are doing first.
Yeah my plan is definitely to show up and feel it out. If my boss is really expecting hyper-productivity at 8:30 AM I might be not too long for this job. I already feel like my brain is still waking up at 9 now!
Take your lunch.
I work 8:30 to 6 and close my laptop at 12 for an hour most days. I am hybrid but most days in office we break at 12 or so. Depends on the work culture and full remote may need some getting used to the expectations. Good luck!
I’m fully remote, and I take a half hour lunch – it’s totally AFK, which is far better than eating at my desk for my mental health. My team is widely distributed geographically and everyone understands that there will not be instant response – not just because of lunch, but people may be presenting in a meeting or something. If you do have an “immediate response” expectation, you should still be able to take lunch! You may need to do so at a consistent time, and let your manager know when it is.
I’m a little confused – how is it relevant that it’s remote work?
I think you’re overthinking it. I work 100% remote for a company that is fully remote across the US and I absolutely take off an hour for lunch every day, no need to alert my boss beforehand. If they do send me a message and I’m at lunch, I’ll ignore it until I’m off my lunch break. If they ask where I was (and rarely, anyone does), I simply say I was at lunch.
Since you’re new, you could ask your boss how they prefer to handle your lunch break – whether you give them a heads up that you’re going to lunch or if it’s okay that they just expect that you step away for an hour. But definitely don’t set the expectation that you will be working in the time that you’re allotted a lunch break.
A note of clarification – don’t set the tone that you’ll be working through your lunchbreak if what you want is a lunch break. Some companies are okay with people working through lunch and taking off early instead. If that’s your preference and your manager and the law is okay with that, cool.
Do you have Teams or another system where you could have a status as “away” during lunch, or put your lunch on your calendar, so internal people trying to contact you know you are on a break?
Our hours are 8-5 with an hour lunch, and I work remote, and I always either take the full hour around noon or sometimes split them up or use it at a weird time because of appointments, errands, etc. I sometimes glance at my emails because I’m exempt but other days I’m busy and don’t!
Looks like Slack, based on the original question. We use Slack at my company, put “at lunch” as our status, and nobody expects any replies until we’re off lunch.
I work remote, and yes, I take a real lunch break most days, away from my computer. My time is flexible on when to take it, so it’s usually after 2 pm California time.
I’m hybrid and exempt. I took a slightly over an hour lunch today, but I often work with no lunch break, so it depends on my workload and meeting schedule. My organization has pretty flexible schedules unless you do shift work. And there are core hours when you are expected to be available (9-3, with the understanding that you might actually take a lunch).
My work ebbs and flows (communications), so I could try to stick to a schedule like you describe, but it would probably not work that well for me.)
I’m not remote, but I am 8-5 with a full hour off and our hour off is sacrosanct. Emails may come in but I’m not expected to do anything with them, or to answer my phone, or anything. (Generally unless it is really cold or really hot I take a car nap)
I’ve been fully remote since COVID and have always taken my lunch, exempt or non-exempt.
It’s not unusual for remote workers to take a lunch break – one of the advantages of being at home is you can use the time to make a healthy lunch, exercise, do laundry, etc.! I don’t see how it would be grubbing more hours if they give you an hour break. I think there’s awareness that it’s very hard to be “on” for 8 hours straight, and most people want and need a break, whether in office or remote.
From your comments, sounds like what you really want is to start at 9, but that’s a separate issue. If you see other people do it, I think you could suggest taking a half hour lunch and leaving at 5, but, as you said, after observing the culture for a while. As a manager, I would approve a request to reduce lunch from one hour to a half hour, but not to skip it entirely every day. People need breaks to be productive.
I’m 100% telework in a public agency. Those of us in roles that aren’t customer-facing can choose to work with our supervisors to define which of a variety of schedules we might follow (4 10-hour days, time shift for start/finish, etc.), as long as the supervisor supports this (big agency, likely some variation and some who would need to be online at the same time as others for collaboration). The norm is 8am-5pm; I think of starting at 9am as “bankers’ hours” (a leftover from childhood) and have never worked in a workplace that didn’t have most people starting at 8am in a number of private, nonprofit, and public jobs.
I officially have a 8:30am-5:30pm schedule, which I set because I start the day pretty slowly and gain energy toward the end of the day. The reality is that I, a salaried exempt employee, am trusted to self-manage and get the work done. That might involve working through the lunch hour on an intense day with deadline. It might involve doing that several days in a row at times and then cutting myself some slack on Friday afternoon. (That was a topic of discussion a while back: how people flex their schedules.) I might also have to start the day at 8am if that’s the only time anyone can find for a meeting that involves a lot of people. That’s the job. It’s also the case that I’m often doing some email catchup in the evening while I watch TV, which is sort of quasi-work but if I can cut some underbrush that makes the next morning better. So am I on the clock then? Eh.
I set a recurring appointment on my calendar for my lunch hour. It’s marked private and serves the function (usually) of not having someone schedule a meeting during that time. Whether or not I actually take a break is up to me. Most days I do. I’m here reading AAM on a lunch break right now. I eat, maybe go for a walk, take care of a personal item that has to happen during work hours.
There’s a real reason to have personal time during business hours and to take regular breaks so your brain actually functions. Set your calendar to show your offline for an hour and use it.
I work from home, my hours are 8-5, unpaid hour lunch which I take fully.
This has been completely normal in all my 100% remote jobs for over 10 years. We’re not expected to be responsive when we’re on lunch. We are supposed to keep our slack status updated so it’s clear we haven’t just disappeared.
My employer has set working hours but I discussed working a slightly different schedule with my boss when I onboarded, and it has never been a problem. I don’t have to track or log my time, and my boss doesn’t care which hours I work as long as I’m generally available and everything gets done on time. I take an hour lunch every single day. I also go to doctor’s appointments or run to the store (which takes longer than an hour) on slower days, and it’s not an issue. I’m salaried so I don’t see a need to work exactly 8 hours a day, and the same 8 hours a day as everyone else, if my work is done and done well.
I’m not sure what this has to do with remote vs onsite. Plenty of people work through lunch to leave an hour earlier onsite.
personally I now screen for places with this type of rigidity when looking for work – that level of micromanaging doesn’t work with my health constraints – but most places I’ve worked at least allow for individuals to decide whether or not to take a full, walk away for some time type of lunch or eat at your desk, be it at home or in an office.
My son-in-law has this exact schedule in a fully remote job for a fully remote company and he leaves his office and his work computer physically during that time, and takes the full hour, every day.
I agree that it could definitely be abused by an expectation that you’ll respond to e-mails, but it doesn’t have to be.
Going anon for this since I’m getting into specifics. I’ve worked in the admin space for years and I’ve managed to stumble my way upwards from receptionist to executive assistant. The thing is, while my job titles have been leveling up, my actual jobs have been all over the place. I’ve had receptionist/office manager roles that were very intensive, but my current EA role is mainly sitting around doing nothing but the occasional powerpoint or spreadsheet (I’ve spoken to my manager, but I can never get a straight answer other than “hang tight for now, and we can look into more work for you later”.)
I’ve been interviewing for receptionist/office manager roles, but people are most interested in the EA role, and I can see them growing disappointed as they learn I don’t have any experience with typical EA things like Concur, travel booking, etc, even though that’s not what I’m even interviewing for. So my question here is two-fold:
1) How do I tactfully talk about the fact that my current role was a bait and switch, and I don’t have any actual EA experience, even though that’s my job title?
2) How can I convince interviewers that my “lower” job title roles were more responsibility, and that closer match to the type of role I want to work in going forward, even though my resume shows me growing away from that?
I think what you just said – this job does not match the description and is much less of a fit for my skills and doesn’t allow me to use xyz office manager skills that I have learned and I want to return to a space that allows me to grow in that trajectory.
100% agree and do say that somehow in your cover letter.
Good luck!
I would also take the time to learn the basics of these skills, since you are seeing them mentioned repeatedly. Even if you are only familiar with them, it’s better than not knowing at all. That will also add some weight to “I know I can do this, I am looking for the opportunity to use/gain these skills.”
Can you highlight roles in your cover letter or rearrange your resume to focus on skills vs jobs?
Titles in admin roles are really nonstandard, and so are salary ranges as a result. A lot of people target EA roles because it can be a path to higher pay, but then you get title inflation on the part of employers who (for example) want to call their entry level admin in a tiny startup or nonprofit an “EA” even though they’re barely paying a living wage, because the role supports their “executive” who is basically a solopreneur.
There’s room to talk about that in a cover letter as a kind of “meta” point – that admin titles often don’t reflect the real duties and responsibilities. Describe the level of responsibility you are accustomed to dealing with, and are seeking.
Also, if you do want to go into roles that need EA skills like Concur, sign up for a free month of Linkedin Learning and get a certificate in it. Concur in particular, and most of the other platforms or softwares like that are very easy to learn because they’re so visual. If you have an EA title in your most recent role, and a bunch of certificates, you’ll be well positioned.
And if you’re bored at your current job, professional development is a legitimate use of downtime, by the way.
Agreed. I have seen Executive Assistant mean anything from what I would consider a low-level administrative assistant to something like a Chief of Staff position.
I will add here that besides Linkedin their is the American Society for Administrative Professionals (I don’t believe you have to be in the US). They have free membership that has a lot of great resources, trainings, webinars etc. Its specifically for admins and EAs. Lots of resources.
For #1, could you do what I’ve seen Alison suggest before, about putting something like “Administrative Assistant” as your job title on your resume with your actual EA title next to it in parentheses (and possibly quotation marks)? That might help clear up some of the confusion ahead of time.
I was going to suggest this also!
I’m going to need to start going into the office a lot more than I have been, so what do people recommend I bring in to make it cozier/make my life easier/make it “mine”? I currently have a coffee maker and minifridge in my office (my org provides a dirty old fridge and microwave but nothing else) and considering bringing in a microwave, but I’m not sure what else I should be thinking of. I have my own private office with a door so I don’t really need to worry about space or bothering people.
I only have a cubicle, but I have a bunch of office supplies in my favorite color (pink). I also have pictures of my pets and family.
To make your life easier: A change of clothes. In case you spill coffee on your shirt or a bus sprays sleet all over your pants and socks, etc. You can’t just walk down the hall to your bedroom and get new ones!
A small humidifier in winter if the office air is dry.
Yeah this is why I kept a pair of shoes in my lower drawer too, since I was commuting on foot / public transit it saved me several times. Nothing worse than spending a day in a chilly office with wet cuffs, socks, and shoes.
This was key when I worked in the office. I had a pair of flats that were made of quilted fabric and felt like slippers (but just looked like cute flats) – they were great in office shoes for bad weather or just days a new pair was giving me blisters.
Also depending on your choice of beverages, a good travel mug that allowed me to bring my own coffee from home was also helpful (I never like office standard coffee and buying it out every day gets pricey).
Since we are virtually paperless now, but our offices still have all the filing cabinets, I have a spare pair of winter dress shoes, summer dress sandals and walking shoes along with a clean pair of dress socks and athletic socks.
The rest of the drawers have snacks.
I do a Mister Rogers every day and change from my lace up walking outside/public transit shoes to indoor loafers.
yes! Ever since I went full Mr. Rogers I’ve felt my office is much cozier! I have an extra pair of rubber soled wool slipper (glerups) that I put on whenever I’m in office.
Along these lines, I strongly suggest keeping a spare jacket around to throw on if the AC is cranked too high one day or there’s an early morning chill or etc.
My cousin did this for years when she worked in a relatively casual office, but occasionally had to present to super senior executives, sometimes without much warning. She kept a set of fancy clothes in her office, just in case.
If you have your own office, and not a cube, soft lighting.
This. Nothing made a bigger difference for me than bringing in one of those indirect torchiere floor lamps so I could leave the overhead fluorescents off. I also scavenged a comfy armchair from storage so I’d have some place better to sit when I was reading documents.
Lighting can be crucial to add the cozy to office space.
A whimsical calendar.
Yes! I was going to suggest some cheap form of art to look at, like a poster, but this is perfect.
You may need a chair cushion, depending on the quality of the one at your desk.
I’m a big fan of artwork that you like and that represents your personal style. Doesn’t have to be expensive collector stuff, just some basic pieces or maybe some stuff by local artists. Framed posters are another option.
A nice rug can do wonders for absorbing sound (especially if your building is echo-y) and adding a pop of color or design. Same for lighting — a good lamp or ring light can warm things up and also make for a little better presentation on video calls if you do them often.
In terms of making life easier, I’d think about what helps keep you organized and maybe add some nice office supplies around that. Calendars? Planners? A white board? Things like a folder organizer and pencil cups can also help.
Do you have room for alternative seating, like a comfy chair? Sometimes I need a break from the “office” and just sitting across room in a different chair with my laptop helps break up my brain fog.
Artwork! I had some small posters and postcards (unframed) that I liked pinned on my cubical walls. I’d rotate my prints throughout the year and an easy way to change things up visually.
Depending on your office dress code / how you commute, shoes! I commute by public transportation so typically wear sneakers/boots to work, then have a bottom drawer of my desk devoted to cute flats that generally read as more professional but are less comfortable for the walk.
I paint my offices – Your ability may vary, but I work for state government in a small building with little oversight. So I brought a friend in on the weekend and painted my office, as long as I provided the paint nobody cared, also I didn’t actually ever ask for permission. I even started a trend and now several other people have painted theirs. That with art work, easy to care for plants, and lamps (no big lights ever!) my office a really nice place to work.
Also a window – I might honestly trade a bit of my soul for a window in my office.
I personally would not bring in a microwave because I feel like they always leave a smell no matter what I cook and in an enclosed office all those smells are going to add up.
Good point on the microwave! The shared one is nasty and I wanted one closer to me anyway, but I’ll definitely need to reconsider now.
I think paiting wouldn’t go over well, but I’ll probably bring in decorations.
I sometimes wish I had an electric kettle at work.
The one at home I use all the time, for tea, cup-a-soup, hot chocolate.
Right now I just use the microwave to boil water if I need hot water for something, but if the shared one here was nasty, I’d definitely bring a small kettle and a nice mug.
Also, snacks of your choice. I used to keep a metal tin with individually wrapped peppermints, other hard candies, snack size chocolate bars, dried nuts, dried fruit. (also can hold toothbrush, toothpaste, floss, mini mouth wash.
The metal tin with cover served 2 purposes:
1) it kept the snacks out of sight so I wouldn’t reach for a snack just because I could see a snack
2) it keeps the snacks safe in case a mouse or other critter finds it way into the office.
I found out the hard way that metal cubicle drawers are not mouse proof.
Also, microwaves use more power than anything other than space heaters. Briefly, yes, but long enough to trip a circuit breaker if the circuit isn’t wired for it. At the least, I recommend checking with Facilities first. Overloading electrical circuits isn’t a “better to ask forgiveness than permission” situation.
I keep wipes, hand sanitiser, hand cream, gum, tissues, water bottle, stress ball, coffee travel mug on my desk. We have a space heater in the office that’s quite useful. I also keep coffee, decaf coffee, and squash in the kitchen cupboard (nobody ever steals the decaf!)
Tee hee! I lived in the UK for several years so I know squash is a drink, but I can imagine some North Americans being puzzled about bringing squash to work – butternut?, acorn?
For under your desk, my favourite thing is a rug with a pocket for my feet and heating coils that plugs into an outlet. I think they’re one of those disability-friendly products aimed at people with low mobility and poor circulation (all the product images featured elderly folks) that are just generally really nice for everyone. Very cozy indeed, and I imagine it would be even nicer if I were commuting and coming in from the cold.
Oh THAT’S what the pocket in the blanket my aunt sent when I was doing chemo was for! I never figured it out.
when i had my own office i had a mini speaker so I could listen to music softly while I worked.
Ooh, your own microwave is awesome. Here’s some things I would have:
1. A plant. Pothos are great for offices. Water once a week; they’re hardy and don’t mind fluorescent light. If you have a window, it will be even happier.
2. A picture on the wall that lets you rest your eyes — maybe a print or poster of art you like.
3. Something to put your feet on under the desk. If you like to stretch your legs out, a little collapsible storage cube is perfect. I had one at TechJob and also at Exjob.
4. A blanket for cold days. I kept a small fleece blanket inside my collapsible storage cube footrest. Very cozy. :)
5. A nice lamp to put on your desk or by a visitor chair — not an industrial-ish desk lamp, one with a shade. Some people I worked with at TechJob brought these into their cubes to make them more homey.
Seconding the plant, and you can use a full spectrum bulb in the lamp to make the lighting nicer, too. It’s amazing how much sunlight coded light does for the mood.
Thirding pothos. Plus, if you’re lucky enough to have a sunny window, an orchid. They look fragile, but they’re tough as nails. They’ll be here even after the nuclear armageddon.
Couple of framed pictures always goes a long way. A resilient plant likewise.
If you have a magnetic white board etc., picking out a set of small magnets that you like can be a small touch that makes it feel more “yours”
Depending on HVAC situation, a desk fan (if overheated in winter or undercooled in summer). If it runs cold, a small space heater if allowed or other office-appropriate warming (cozy “desk cardigan”, small lap blanket, etc.)
E.g., some magnets I like:
https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/art-of-nature-under-the-sea-glass-magnet-set-set-of-6/38668471/item/57048314/
https://store.metmuseum.org/van-gogh-museum-magnets-14016174?gQT=1
My walls are magnetic so I’m definitely getting some fun magnets to hang up photos of my dogs and stuff!
An air purifier could be a great investment. If people are feeling they must be in the office more and all WFH is out the window, you will have people coming in sick. An air purifier can help keep the air in your space cleaner.
If you’re a fancy coffee person: I have a Breville Cafe Milk Frother which both warms and froths milk and allows me to make myself a latte every day. It’s not cheap, but over time it’s definitely cheaper than getting coffee at a local coffee shop and it lets me make myself a treat every morning that makes me happy. (I just use high quality espresso powder for the coffee portion; I know for some people that wouldn’t be a good solution. A friend has both the frother and a Nespresso machine to make her lattes; I don’t have space for both at work and the espresso powder is tasty enough for me.)
A friend swears by taster’s choice single serve packets of instant coffee, says they are great in a pinch when you don’t have a full brewer handy.
There’s a Korean brand called Maxim Gold that makes really really good instant coffee packets.
I love my weighted lap blanket for sitting for long periods of time. I also collect Lego minifigs that I have lined up on my desk (with putty on them to keep them from tipping over.) Small knickknacks that aren’t super expensive but still make you smile are the best way to cheer up an office, IMHO!
If you have harsh lighting, a desk lamp can be nice to add light in your preferred color/brightness, and you can get a nice looking one that feels like your style. (Tiffany style stained glass, modern, animal shaped, etc.)
If you have any seating other than your desk chair, throw pillows can make things feel more cozy and comfy.
I also hate wearing shoes, so I used to have a small soft rug under my desk (like shower mat sized—actually it might have been a shower mat now that I think of it) that I would put my bare feet on when I took off my shoes under my desk. (No one could see my feet, and the office carpet was old and gross.)
Just remember that what you bring in you may need to take home some day (with little notice) OR may go missing…and make your decisions accordingly
A small basket inside a desk drawer is easy to pack up and go.
an electric kettle because sometimes you want tea/soup/hot water. toaster oven if you’re really setting up shop to eat lunch there regularly. Is the office cold? you might want a sweater or scarf or something in a desk drawer just in case; plus condiments in packets and a stash of office supplies
Look at the lighting – if it’s harsh overhead lighting, consider a lamp. How is the temperature? Would you benefit from a fan? Heater? Humidifier? If you have a bookshelf, include something you would like to look at or a hearty plant. Do you listen to music? Do you have a non-phone/headset free way to do so? Don’t forget a favorite mug or two for the coffee.
Ugh. I’m so hesitant to bring in too much stuff. When I left one job years ago it took be a week of taking stuff home to empty out my personal stuff. Never again I said! Outside of appliances, I try to keep things minimal and grouped together so I can easily pack and up and go if I want/must.
But as for appliances – I highly recommend an air purifier!
I keep a nice big bowl for salads at my desk–it’s a much nicer mixing and eating experience that way. I also keep a dish brush because shared dishwashers are risky and communal sponges are disgusting.
Ummm, I would maybe not be bringing in a bunch of extra stuff, especially items that tax the circuit breakers like that?? Hi, fire risk, for starters!
Most places I’ve worked wouldn’t allow any individual kitchen appliances or things like space heaters or air filters. If you need something for medical you could get it, usually company paid, by going throughchannels, but otherwise no. So ask before following a lot of these suggestions.
Lotion and a pack of plastic utensils for whenever I inevitably forget to bring the correct utensils with my lunch have both been invaluable. It might also be smart to keep some back up layers if your office is over air conditioned.
Mini popcorn machine! They have little ones
it does mean assembling it, but for a nice decoration that you don’t have to water, Lego has been putting out some lovely bouquet set kits! i need to farm out that labor to my niblings and then get the succulent set sitting in my window, lol.
if you’re looking for ways to decorate a wall that are quick and easy (and much easier to take down later), may i commend to you some tapestries? places like aliexpress often have vendors where it’s whatever you want printed on some fabric. usually it’s fairly cheap fabric, of course, but there’s all manner of artwork that’s been extant for long enough that it doesn’t fall under copyright anymore. (…and also stuff that’s absolutely copyrighted but, y’know, go for the Monet and not the Pokemon fanart for the office anyway.)
for lighting – well, considering it’s wintertime and …the current events, it may be worth looking at one of those therapy lamps. i’m giving that a specific shout-out because if you think it may help your mood, totally go for it, and if it doesn’t help your mood then… you have a very bright lamp that simulates natural sunlight and that’s quite useful in its own way lol!
it’s also worth thinking about things like desk mats, essentially whole-desk mousepads that can, of course, also be printed with whatever you like. there’s a high chance you can go to the same chinese sellers and get a theme going of Monet’s water lilies lol. of course, also look to things like wrist pads that will help make using your computer more comfortable.
people have mentioned humidifiers, but i will go ahead and admit my southern bias here and recommend… a box fan. or a smaller fan. really, it’s half for air circulation, half for white noise.
now is also a great time to consider some (lightweight, possibly made of compressed paperboard you assemble yourself and can also disassemble, etc) organization containers. a nice desktop credenza type thing – well, perhaps the baby sibling of a proper credenza but you know what i mean – something with drawers for various bits and bobs like chapstick, hand cream, paperclips, spare batteries for the wireless mouse, extra charge cables for your phone, etc. you can often find ones built into a pen cup, too. a humorous vessel for pens is also a great thing to be on the lookout for!
mind you, here are some bad ideas you probably shouldn’t consider as you are, well, federally employed… but dang if this ain’t a tempting time to get pass-agg with the decor. will you get rumbled if you fly an american flag upside-down to indicate an SOS? pppprobably. but now’s a hilarious time to introduce flags from fictional universes that may carry a subtle message of “yeah this is the institution i believe in more”. though for those, maybe don’t cheer the baddies – it’s going to be a little odd to fly the banner of the Enclave or Vault-Tec, but the New California Republic is some pointed stealth snark and also has a two-headed bear on it so win-win. (apologies to whoever hasn’t gotten deep in the Fallout paint, specifically for New Vegas, for whom that previous sentence will make zero sense. to translate to a slightly more well known fandom: don’t fly the Empire’s flag, the Rebel Alliance starbird might be too on the nose, but a Jedi Order flag? go for it, says i.)
of course, the other way to play with fire is to find flags that celebrate diversity and inclusion… and then if needed be prepared to play dumb as to why that could ever be a problem. why of course that’s a flag of the Iroquois Confederacy, you’re just a student of history and we are on land that used to belong to the six tribes you know…
these are all, as i said, terrible ideas. they’re baiting the bull and waving a big red flag in front of its face. unfortunately more than a little part of me would be extremely tempted to, in fact, absolutely taunt Happy Fun Ball. (just to continue references that most folks won’t get with a SNL skit that i think is older than i am.)
also they make little ceramic dumpsters for putting pens or perhaps plants in. and they definitely make pens that have bodies made out of fetching firey reds and oranges… just putting that out there, lol
Maybe more of a vent – My company is self-destructing and I have a critical role (sales, the last in my division). I have given my two week’s notice. There would be a lot to do in those two weeks if my org was capable of responding to challenges – but if they were, I probably wouldn’t be leaving. My boss has asked me to focus on things that make zero sense in my final two weeks, like writing an industry blog on a project I have nothing to do with, writing our division’s annual report that isn’t due until next year and nobody reads (there probably won’t be a division next year), or doing file clean up that is not urgent or necessary but is very detail-oriented (think “rename all the files from 2017 with different names” when there are 10,000 files from 2017 and that drive is archived anyway). I’m trying to set a reasonable work boundary on what I’m willing to do in my final weeks, so I will do these things – that’s what my boss asked – and additionally leave one (1) transition document that outlines a few ideas I have for the future and the urgent sales things that somebody will have to do in six months after I’m gone if there’s any hope at all of functioning (think, renew this sales contract – here is the current contact, here’s last year’s contract, here’s some likely sticking points etc). I’m surprised-but-not-surprised that my boss doesn’t seem interested in this kind of thing and want more of it. However, I’m concerned someone else is going to ask me at the 11th hour, like my last day, for a lot more prep on these things (like, “can you generate draft contracts now for all these renewals that will come up after you’re gone and annotate them?”). How much obligation do I have to tell my boss / others what is happening? I would be willing to do that stuff but not if I’m also doing this other minutiae.
Let them ask. It’s not on you. What happens then? They fire you at the 11th hour?
Right? You should never be starting a new task on your last day of work, and they’d be ridiculous for asking you to.
Well, I don’t want to leave on a bad note and ruin my future reference, since I was otherwise a good employee all these years. I wouldn’t want the person coming after me, or my boss, to later say “Senioritis left everything a terrible mess.”
In that case, focus on your hand-off/SOP document. Whoever comes after you will thank you a lot more for that than for renaming eight-year-old files.
If anyone besides your boss tries to give you more work, explain that your boss has assigned you specific tasks to wrap up before your last day and that unfortunately you won’t have time to take on anything else. Copy your boss on it, which gives them the chance to adjust priorities if they feel the need. If it’s important to you to leave on a good note, you may want to add extra info about certain things in your handover documents if you can’t get to those tasks before you leave.
If you really, really want to, you could flag to your grand-boss that you two have very different priorities for your last 2 weeks and ask for guidance. Preferably after you talk to your boss again.
Yeah, the answer to what to do if they ask you to do something on your last day is “Oh, I seem to have run out of time to do that, sorry!” I used this tactic at my last job when someone who’d been making my life miserable and hadn’t done a single lick of work for the eight months she’d been there suddenly decided that I needed to do an update on a bunch of database records before I left. She’s been going on and on for weeks about how these updates were coming and how important they were, and despite me and my boss asking multiple times for her to get them to me waited until my last week to do so. Oh, darn, I didn’t have time for that, sorry. (This task would have taken like an hour, but my boss, who also was fed up with this person, told me to leave it to whoever they hired in my stead and not look back.)
You’re right. I’ll do the dumb stuff my boss asked for and try to make my doc as good as I reasonably can, and if they get their heads out of the sand at the 11th hour I’ll just be unavailable. I feel like they’re going to be upset later no matter what I do, but the way to handle that was to make different choices a year or so ago, and it’s all above my paygrade really.
Yeah, I hear you. It’s depressing to leave a job you don’t really want to leave but have to because of bad decisions made by TPTB, so you have my solidarity. Good luck!
And you don’t have to be fully unavailable if there’s still a day or two left, it’s not all or nothing — just cheerfully warn them you might not get to it all, and then do however much of it that you can (at a reasonable, non-rushed pace).
This. Just do your best.
Absolutely this.
I think you have the obligation to have one conversation with your boss (if you haven’t already) about how tasks XYZ are more important than [writing an industry blog, etc.]. But if your boss says “no, [industry blog] is the most important task, focus on that,” well, you tried.
After that conversation, if someone else comes to you with “hey, can you generate draft contracts now for all these renewals that will come up after you’re gone and annotate them?” I think you’re in the clear to respond along the lines of “I won’t be able to get to all of the renewals because I’m only working here for 8 more hours. I can generate draft contracts for two renewals by the end of the day.”
I wouldn’t think of it as an obligation to tell your boss/others what’s happening, so much as a kindness for whoever inherits your workload.
If it were me, I’d probably try to get out ahead of it rather than passively waiting for someone to drop something annoying on you on your last day, e.g. I’d tell the boss that X contract renewals were coming up in the next two months, and that I think it makes the most sense to focus on that rather than renaming the 2017 files on the archived drive. If he still wants you to do the file renaming, fine, but that’s his choice to own.
I might half-ignore the boss – focus more on the transition items as a kindness to your colleagues who will probably have those tasks dropped in their laps at the last minute and without the information they need, and do a handful of the requested useless items as a show of good faith. The idea another commenter had about raising this one time with the boss is a good one, too.
Can you try one more time with feeling to tell your boss that you think X, Y, and Z are really important? He’ll either listen to you or he won’t and the outcome is on him.
At this point, you don’t have any responsibility to warn him about the incoming crises, but it sounds like you’ll feel better about it all if you give it your best try.
No longer your problem. You’re leaving. Do what you were asked and let the chips fall. If there’s anyone downstream that will be affected, give them a head’s up that you aren’t going t be able to contribute this time but if you are tasked last-minute don’t feel obligated. Their failure to plan is not your emergency.
Since we’re at the fifth anniversary of the plague, what changes from it have made your work easier/better? **This does NOT include WFH!** As a customs broker, here are two big ones for me: 1. CBP/other govt agencies now take electronic versions of certain documents they used to require hard copies of (such as phytosanitary or foreign veterinary forms for food imports). 2. Some vendors (airlines and warehouses) that were reluctant to take electronic payments before suddenly took them. There’s a payment portal for international transportation vendors (PayCargo) that existed before the pandemic, but it seems everyone now uses it. Imagine having to get a $100 terminal handling check cut last minute for an urgent air freight shipment. Can’t pick up without and the truck driver would have to swing by to get check to have in hand to pickup at airport.
Telemedicine has helped me a bit. For certain appointments, I no longer have to go to the doctor’s office, so it cuts down on time I’m away.
Video meetings. As someone who struggles with auditory processing, it’s helpful to see people’s faces. But I only have to be presentable from the shoulders up and don’t have to worry about posture etc (I don’t know if other people worry about this in-person, but I do).
I know some people hate them, but I don’t.
Video meetings have helped me a lot too. I manage a piece of software and I find training people to use it is fifty thousand times easier now that we can just screen share. People can have their screens set up however they want and we’re not all sat around in a meeting room squinting at a poorly calibrated TV hooked up to a slow computer from 15 years ago.
Yes, this too!
Screen share is awesome. I’m still training remotely (my unit is in another city) and it’s so great to pull up the thing and have someone walk me through it. I learn best when I see and do.
Video meetings for sure!
And how everyone suddenly learned that you don’t have to travel for meetings, of whatever kind. Seems like that’s slowly going away though, which I think is silly.
Remote interviews for the win!
Oh HECK yes!
I completely agree. I love that I have almost zero phone meetings now – huge improvement on how a bunch of people in my ambit are communicating with each other.
Closed captioning really helps with this for me!
Adding my vote for video meetings. I serve on a bunch of state task teams that used to meet in-person most of the time, which in practice meant only people who live in the capital city could be regular participants. Now we can have members from all over the state.
I work in an industry that was considered essential during the early days, which means that we didn’t actually shut down even while everyone around us did. I joined the team in 2022, so no more lockdowns, but what I’ve seen has been a really inspiring commitment to moving away from paper. There’s a closet full of records going back 20 years that no one has ever needed, and now we have a cloud-based file system that allows us to review and purge often. Since we were surrounded by people working from home, we had to adapt. Not only did we manage it, but now we’re more willing across the board to implement new things.
Yes! I had two co-workers who wanted to print everything. They would print up tickets and write notes on them and then file them. Our ticketing system had the capability to add notes to tickets. They were the only two who supported this product, but sometimes I did have to go through their files to do follow-up. My boss had bigger issues to tackle so she allowed this go on.
We were sent home to the pandemic. My co-worker asked if he could get reimbursed for the ink he would need to print tickets. My boss said there is no business reason to be printing tickets especially now since no one else would be able to reference them. The two co-workers finally learned to put notes inside the ticketing system.
Yes, our shift to electronic records has been wonderful.
Almost all invoicing and order processing is by email or file upload, payments have almost all gone electronic. No more printing and mailing of anything. Makes it much easier to follow up and send confirmations when needed.
Order approvals are all virtual too – large orders get an order summary/approval sheet routed around (just by email, we’re a small company no fancy routing SW needed) with all the relevant supporting documents. Comments/changes get noted as it goes, and we have everything in a tidy electronic file for referral/archival/audit support for as long as we need it. And are automatically backed up to an offsite server for recovery if needed.
I just arranged on-site shredding for old paper documents. We used to have to do that regularly every 1-2 years as old records were no longer needed, past their retention dates. This may be the last time I ever do that, because most of what used to be paper is now electronic. And eventually we’ll get rid of all those lateral file cabinets which are nearly all empty, or will be when someone bothers to look in them.
Technical support calls, sales calls are almost all done virtually these days, avoiding the expense and hassle of employees having to travel off site multiple times a year (which also saves our foreign liability insurance expense since we now have maybe 1 person traveling once per year instead of dozens of trips, car rentals, etc all over the place every year)
I talk to students, reviewing records, etc. Zoom’s share screen function makes it easier to discuss issues- no one’s trying to look over a shoulder. Many students find the ability to jump on Zoom an easy way to ask questions- they can ask from anywhere.
I work at an extremely risk averse organization where every document gets signed and reviewed and signed and verified and signed. Until the pandemic, this was all wet signatures, either sent around by interoffice mail, or print-sign-scan. The pandemic forced them to allow the possibility of electronic signatures.
I adore electronic signatures! One of the biggest timesavers.
I find it interesting how QR codes have become more common and understood. I worked at a nonprofit that really wanted to use them back in 2013 but the technology barrier was just too high for most people. Now I probably interact with two a week across all kinds of functions.
I totally agree with this and was noticing it recently!
FYI QR codes have a lot of accessibility issues compared to providing URLs. They aren’t accessible to a lot of blind people. I have difficulty using a cell phone touch screen and that includes difficulty with QRs. Whereas if the e-mail or power point or whatever has a URL, I can type it in or click on it. Please provide both.
Well, I made a career switch a couple of years ago to an industry that boomed because of the pandemic–online education–so while my job certainly existed before then, they hired more people as a result.
Before I switched, though, my former office was totally stuck in the 90s, relying on paper, pen-and-ink signatures, and a bunch of other really outdated processes. I’d been trying to convince my boss that we should get with the digital program, but she had been so resistant. Well, the pandemic changed that literally overnight and now a few small forests have probably been spared.
A lot more people (though not everyone) are a lot better at using Zoom than they once were. So my zoom calls are a lot easier to manage.
Zoom itself has also improved a lot! For example, the virtual backgrounds are way better than they were pre-pandemic, and there is a lot more awareness about accessibility tools and things like the host can mute people instead of loudly asking everyone to mute themselves and being ignored (although of course it still happens!)
MS teams also improved a lot. Early in the pandemic it was very clunky
The largeish animal shelter where I work installed service windows for our intake office, so people stay on the sidewalk rather than entering the office. (There’s a big overhang so they’re not standing in the sun or the rain.) Everybody loves it, it keeps unruly pets from getting too close to one another or causing havoc in the lobby, and unruly customers don’t have access to our staff. The customers don’t mind it either, it makes everything very orderly.
As an events person, I really appreciate that (where possible) we can now make video of our events available either for live streaming or on-demand viewing. It has opened up our events to a much wider audience, including people based in other countries who would never be able to attend our events in person.
The only notable change is client meetings over Zoom. Living in a smallish city and serving a local clientele, it’s not too inconvenient for people to come in and meet in person. However, being able to share screens is a game-changer. I’m more of a visual thinker, people tend to focus better, and it greatly diminishes my boss’ desire/ability to draw from his store of personal anecdotes. Having heard them all a gazillion times, it’s a struggle to appear to be engaged.
1.) Regularly scheduled check-in meetings being on Teams rather than default in person. Why did we ever think it made sense to have the entire project team from 10 different companies all spend hour each way driving downtown for a 20-minute weekly meeting? I don’t know why either, but it frees up so much time now that nearly every meeting has a phone-in option.
2.) Electronic documents for final reports. Prior to the pandemic, the regulators and clients all expected hard copy documents, even enormous appendices where a computer is far easier to search anyways. I once had a project where we had half the project team spend an entire afternoon simply folding hard-copies of 11×17 pages. Then the pandemic hit, copy rooms were closed, and everybody suddenly realized that actually we never really read the 8,000 pages of raw spreadsheet printouts anyways so now we just make a PDF and upload it.
3.) Everybody getting more comfortable with electronic document transmission. Pre-pandemic, even if the other person did accept upload electronic documents, there’d be a solid chance they weren’t familiar with the method and I’d need to jump on a call to explain it. But now, everybody’s much more comfortable with it so just dropping the link and password is all anybody needs.
So much the electronic documents!
I remember one physical government RFPs we did was approximately 2.5k pages, and the required 3 full copies (which was already a “reduction” from the standard 5-8 copies this agency normally required.) And they *knew* that is was nonsense – they *also* required that we put the whole thing on CD as well! (This was before thumb drives were the norm.)
Ah yes, the infamous “Paperwork Reduction Act”
Remote working then ;)
I was in a slightly-higher-than-entry-level job (I had got a couple of small promotions and was considered a superstar performer) in an essential role that couldn’t possibly be done from home/remotely, and from which I couldn’t move up further except into management because of the remoteness of our office from everywhere else in our global company.
Until suddenly my particular essential job could be done from home/remotely (and was, very well, by so many people keeping the country afloat). And wouldn’t you know, so could all these other higher skilled and higher paid jobs in the company be done remotely, so living where I do suddenly wasn’t a barrier to fulfilling my potential.
I can’t tell you how life-changing the resulting career paths have been for me and so many of my very able colleagues who are now doing great work for teams all over the country/the world without having to upend our real lives. I now work in a team mostly based in another region entirely, and can’t even work in the local office at the moment because of the nature of the work I do. (Which is not ideal but I do at least have job security and a decent wage as a result!)
Sorry, doesn’t count! LOL. That’s what everyone would say (or the ones who WFH).
Well, if everyone could say (truthfully) that due to remote working they’d got a whole career path they never had access to before and were succeeding and earning far more than they had ever expected to in their careers (I promise you that is the literal truth for me and several other people I know), then absolutely remote working counts!
I very much doubt in fact everyone would or could say that. But I know I can, and I know that my region considers it a potential lifeline to prevent brain drain and rapid population decline despite being on some criteria a desirable area to live.
Not everyone lives in cities…
How about this version– my company went remote, and while I still live near the office and go in from time to time, it dramatically opened up who we could hire. Our team is much stronger now and has a much wider range of technical expertise because we could hire folks not only from all across the US but in other countries too.
Having the option to do parent-teacher conferences virtually has really increased overall participation. I used to typically struggle to get 25% of my families to attend conferences, but now I can count on 50% participation even if I don’t send out reminders beyond the initial school-wide announcement. I imagine many home adults find virtual IEP meetings more convenient (no travel to/from school) as well.
It was so much easier to get from conference to conference! Inevitably we managed to book conferences so that you were running up and down three flights of stairs and across a long hallway to get to the next conference. I loved switching to virtual for just these reasons!
A lot of teacher training has gone online which makes so much more sense.
We have online communication set up with our students. A lot of them don’t use it, but it is useful to put up stuff like study resources for those that will.
My office administers programs for. kids with disabilities. We now allow some services to be virtual, which is helpful for kids and. parents, as well as widening the provider pool.
ARPA funds have also helped us help more kids and families. And they’ve gone to the setup of ongoing benefits.
The silver lining of the plague for my job was once and for all eliminating taking checks. The owner had wanted to do so for years but we had a small but determined group of customers who wanted to pay check only.
Checks are a PITA for many reasons, even if they aren’t bouncing like baby pandas on espresso. It takes much longer to process/deposit them and required specific trips to the bank and the seemingly petty but very real “slow the entire line down while somebody waits until they are in front of the counter person to dig out their checkbook while everybody’s food gets cold” issue was real and ongoing.
We’ve switched to credit cards only for all deliveries and orders online/phoned in, which makes it so much easier to do the No Contact deliveries (no, you cannot tape an envelope with the payment onto your door; we charge it on the card, period.) Unfortunately you cannot do No Contact if you order booze since the delivery person has to verify your state issued ID and you have to be holding it.
Video meetings where everyone’s on an equal footing rather than conference rooms in remote locations dialing in.
Much greater bandwidth even at the office.
99% paperless office, electronic signatures FTW.
Until 2020 we were still on Skype, Teams is much more versatile.
We still used paper a lot for signatures and now have fully moved to Docusign. It’s so much better!
Telemedicine all the way – I can do video visits and remote visits for my patients 2+ hrs away and still have it count like an in person visit – and when mostly I’m checking in on scans (that they get locally and then gets loaded into our system – images and reports), surveillance and/or advising a local team what to do it works great and saves everyone a lot of time and stress
I’m in academia and can finally submit my evaluations and promotion and tenure materials digitally.
More Teams meetings – gives me the option to stay at my desk vs cram into a room and try not to yawn.
More understanding about illness – if you say you are sick, they tell you to go away vs begging people to be in their seat.
I work for a medical practice and pre-pandemic our practice would go to places (hospitals, libraries, community centers, etc.) and have community events giving a presentation and answering questions about a medical topic. During the pandemic we started to do live streams regularly, also giving a presentation and answering questions about a medical topic. While we have slowly started to do in-person events again, the live streams are so popular we have no plans to discontinue them. They are accessible to a much wider range of people, and allow people who cannot take the time during the event to watch later. They remain available for years after the fact so the same amount of effort has a much longer reach.
For me it convinced me that no, I did not need to check work email outside of work hours.
I think the hard stop/ shut down work computer/ switch to home mode was challenging at first, but then it was quickly needed. That carried over to the RTO… if people really need me after hours, they have my number. But I also think (in my group at least) that we’ve become more mindful and more respectful of work hours vs home hours.
We do a LOT less print production and binding for our board and executives, in favor of a secure portal. This is great on multiple levels – less tedious scutwork, less waste, and better information security on sensitive documents.
There are still too many PDFs and print copies floating around for my preference, but I don’t get to tell the execs what to do.
Editing shared documents, presentations, etc. instead of sending attachments around and then trying to collate conflicting markups. I’m in a public agency and Google Docs aren’t an option. Version control vanquished!
Virtual meetings #1: Savings on time and travel hassle, expense, and energy by meeting via Teams instead of having to spend a day traveling (and add miles on the road to the system, with all the attendant negative aspects) to put our bodies into the same room where we’d all be looking at phones and laptops anyway instead of really focusing on the meeting.
Virtual meetings #2: Being able to join a meeting on my phone, put on my headset, and either move around my house or go for a walk outside. Either of these options makes me a better, more fully engaged meeting participant (refer to “looking at phones and laptops” above).
Being able to recruit top candidates: Yes, this is WFH-adjacent, but really it’s the virtual meetings and collaborations. They could all go into an office space near where they live, not WFH, and this would still count. The key became that I could define a position as fully remote/hybrid and they wouldn’t have to uproot lives and families and move to HQ Town to work for my agency.
Thanking my lucky stars that my agency leadership remains committed to telework.
1) It’s easier to have parent teacher conferences and other meetings virtually. Before we wouldn’t have thought to do that, but now it’s second nature.
2) Last year I had a student who was out sick for an extended period of time. They could still do class work, just couldn’t physically be in class… so they attended virtually :)
I ran, as a volunteer, a very small museum. For many years we brought Curator Talks to public libraries, corporate events, and other groups within 90 minute drive. These were themed slide shows and required a staffer to drive to the location with a laptop or sometimes just a thumb drive. This was a small but steady source of revenue for the museum.
When everything shut down, we cancelled a few gigs and waited for the world to recover. Then one of our repeat clients suggested we Zoom a program to their facility. It worked!
We now able to present Curator Talks all over the US and the world even on pretty short notice. One staffer can easily do 2 programs in a day if necessary. There is less wear and tear on our tiny staff but our reputation and revenue are growing steadily.
This was week 1 of me performatively working extra hours to try to not have a “time clock mentality” that I got dinged on for my performance review.
One night, I worked 2 hours on some documentation after my 1yr old was asleep. Then another evening, I had to do something at a specific time, so I put my son in his crib as soon as we got home from daycare and worked for 15 more minutes. And he sobbed the whole time. So did I. I get so little time with him, and now I’m supposed to give up more?
I logged the extra 2 hours on my timecard. I didn’t mention it to my boss at my one-on-one this week. (We turn in timecards at the end of the week). I’m going to try to work one night a week. So, at what point should I ask my boss about this again? I feel like he’s going to disapprove if I ask “am I sufficiently working in a non-time-clock-y way” because that’s not the spirit of the request.
To be honest, it doesn’t sound like you’re actually addressing what is being asked of you, which is an attitude. This question is literally an example of a time clock mentality? It’s also okay to be done with this job and looking to move on, I’ve totally been there!
You are 100% correct. I would absolutely love to be able to leave work at work, and to guarantee I could spend time with my baby. I was surprised and upset when my boss put this on my review because he hadn’t mentioned it before.
I’m passively job searching. I don’t want to burn bridges at this job, so I want to make an effort while I’m still here.
I agree, I don’t think the boss meant you should put in extra hours just for the hours’ sake. I’m guessing he’s noticed you leaving in the middle of things, when he specifically wants you to stick around and help for a few more minutes. Rather than hoping he notices you logging extra hours at random times, do it when you know he’s hoping you will.
I have two littles and thankfully a great boss – but your baby is only a baby once and needs to be the priority. Unless you’re going to get fired, I would just say sure; I’m putting in extra time and then just… don’t. Can you schedule your last few emails to send as you are driving to/from daycare? Or tee them up to come home and hit send? The idea of either of us getting more work done after bedtime is laughable, I fall asleep with one of my kids most nights.
I guess I’m curious about what your boss may have meant by “time clock mentality.” Is that because you’re gathering your stuff and out the door the minute you’re “off the clock” and stuff is getting left undone that could be done with another 5-10 minutes? Incidentally, I have had to do childcare pickup, so I get it, and sometimes you absolutely have to bust out of the doors to get your child picked up on time. But is this a situation in which there’s a sense (right or wrong) that you’re constantly watching the clock?
I can see the extra 15 minutes to meet a deadline, even though the situation totally sucked for you and your child. That might be enough. Was the 2 hours extra really impactful? I’m just trying to better understand the reasoning behind his statement about the mentality and whether putting in that extra time once a week is going to move the needle for the business.
Yeah, this. By itself, “time clock mentality” is kind of meaningless feedback. It could be anything from:
1) Since you work the hours you were hired to work and don’t want to give up your personal time for the company, I am peeved because you don’t look like a good little worker bee.
2) At times when there’s high workload and everyone else is pitching in some extra time to get it done, you’re not, which means there’s more work for everyone else to do.
3) You’re literally missing deadlines because you are going home rather than finish stuff on time.
If your boss can’t accurately tell you what IMPACT this “mentality” is having on the work, then it’s probably the first one, and getting out is the right answer. If it’s one of the latter two, you’ll need to work on it, at least until you’re able to find a position somewhere where there’s a bit lower workload.
If you are comfortable with it, Sad Engineer Mom, I would take this back to your boss for clarification, and if it does seem to center on leaving at 4:45 precisely or whatever, let Boss know that you really hope company does not intend to penalize parents and other caregivers who have these responsibilities outside of work time.
And maybe redirect your boss to considering what you actually accomplish during your work hours.
I agree with this train of thought. Some possibilities of what your boss could be thinking [missing some context, so just a bunch of thinking out loud]:
1. Your boss cares about appearances.
2. Your boss’ boss cares about appearances.
3. You make many time-based comments in public and/or to your boss. Could be comments about having to leave exactly on time, etc.
4. You have asked/received flexibility but are unable or unwilling to reciprocate because you have to leave exactly on time.
5. Your performance is inadequate [either quality, productivity, etc.] and your only response to feedback is that you’re putting in the time and that’s all you can do.
6. Your boss doesn’t actually care, but was required to have some ‘constructive’ feedback
Do any of the above resonate with you, or do you think something different could be going on? What did the rest of your review say?
Also, your ‘performative’ work is not going to do anything about this. Boss is not likely to notice, and in the timecard, you still won’t be paid; worst case you’ll get talked to/have a performance discussion if you tried to charge the extra hours. [Assuming you’re an exempt employee, which engineers tend to be].
Are you sure the reference is actually to the “time clock?” Maybe there is aggravation because you are leaving the office promptly to pick up your child, which many people need to do!
Can you manage the departure better? Give a heads up a couple of hours out with “which part of this task do you need before I leave at 5 to pick the baby up?” It pulls your boss back into thinking about the time management of his work, your work. Not a bad thing, it will help your boss focus in also.
FYI, I ran a civil construction company, my daughter is a civil engineer.
And don’t let that sweet baby cry in his bed wanting his mama!
If you have a work time crunch, it’s much better to set your alarm early, work for an hour or two till your household gets up with the normal morning routine. More pleasant for you, and more productive work if you have some rest. I did this for 40+ years, raising 3 kids.
I’d be asking your boss to clarify how he intends to measure “time clocky-ness”. It’s not cool to ask people for things you cant tell them how to do. If he just means work more hours, he needs to say that.
I’ve read about this in another industry (major law firms). I can’t recall the name right now, but it was a book-length anthropological study. That field has absurd hours and an extreme expectation that one will be available. The researcher found that people who succeeded in meeting those expectations were not actually working more; they were carefully crafting the appearance of working more. For example, getting ahead on e-mails during the day, but setting them to send in the future, at a random-looking hour (like 8:17 pm).
Maybe try a similar strategy? Figure out how to optimize **the appearance of being busy** without compromising either core job functions or your family life. You’re an engineer! You can make a complex system work on a tight budget.
And remember: dude said nothing to you about your work product. He pretends to be criticizing your character, but really he is asking you for an appearance, so give him an appearance.
This is the way. Lots of working parents (working people generally) are cramped with other responsibilities but sometimes you can find ways to work smarter, not longer, that please the bosses and just *look better.*
Absolutely THIS!
When I lived in South Korea, I saw my coworkers stay in the office (at a school!) until ungodly hours and I was like, man, this is absurd. Wow.
I stayed one night because I was working on a presentation or something and needed school materials, and I found them all at their desks, as ever. I went over to speak to one guy and it turned out dude was just reading the news. Then I was like, wait, and another teacher was just reading about baseball.
They were just sitting there until the principal went home.
So when you see the countries with the longest hours, there’s not usually that much more work being done.
That makes so much more sense than what I had believed, that the entire country is willing to work themselves to death.
I have absolutely used schedule send on both email and Teams – sometimes to make my presence known at an early hour, and sometimes to make sure the recipient isn’t bothered until later. But it’s a great function.
I don’t even understand what the request is? If you’re asking people to turn in time cards, they’re going to work in a time-clock-y way, surely. Is he asking you to work extra hours without clocking it, just because? (Are you exempt?) Is he asking you to be less strict about leaving at 5pm on the dot because of, idk, optics that you’re only there to do your hours and nothing beyond?
“I’m going to try to work one night a week” is something that I feel like you shouldn’t do without more clarity on what the heck this guy means.
Your boss is a jerk. I would probably not bring it up again directly, but I think in 3 months you could ask to check in on issues and goals from your performance review?
You may want to choose to take the hit to bonuses — if it’s retention, I can see trying to address the issue, but. This year and next year are going to be your hardest years for extra work — at least in my limited experience — and then he’ll start to play independently and get better at eating/sleeping/responding to other body cues. This is an issue that will resolve itself in a couple of years.
Maybe I’m missing the mark here, but are you a perfectionist or somewhat Type A? I know how hard it is to receive any “dings” on your performance review, but as a mom of two and generally a very hard worker / overachiever, this just might be a season where you need to accept that you’re not going to be perfect. Who cares if your boss put that on your review? It sounds like a relatively minor issue.
I “slacked off” way more when my kids were little, and I have no regrets. I actually feel like I wasted less time and became more efficient at work as a mom, but sure, I worked fewer hours and was out of the office on the dot every day. It’s hard when you have really high standards for yourself, but I think you can just move on and generally try to do your best in your work. Your high quality work is the best indicator of success. I would not even follow up with him about that comment unless he does. And I encourage you to stop doing what you described this week – it’s making you suffer, and it’s probably not going to convince your boss of anything.
Ooof, I feel that. It’s hard to be a working parent with a little one. I think your goal of getting out is a good one – I had a boss who thought nothing of repeatedly letting her kids spend evenings without her and was irritable that I left exactly on time to get my baby from daycare. So happy to have left.
How badly did you get dinged on it? Was it a warning or just a mention? Has he missed seeing you during the day? I’d make it a point to be present when you are present – go to a meeting in person vs using Teams.
Don’t let your baby cry, just get it done when you can.
I’m in the unlucky (and sad) position that my two former bosses, before the job I’m in now, have both died. I’m not thinking of moving on yet, but when I do, what do I do about references? I’ve read the advice in past posts but it amounts to “ask someone else on your team”, and in my last-but-one post, my boss who just died was my only coworker. I never had any contact with his boss, who wasn’t onsite. The job before that was now well over a decade ago, and though I could probably track down a former peer, there’s nobody who managed me still around. The job before THAT lasted under a year (it was a fixed-term project) and the company does not give character references as a matter of policy, which has caused problems for me in the past… which I had thought would be over now.
What would you do? They may ask for my current manager to do it (I’m in the UK) but even if they do, I still don’t have anyone else to call on that’s at all recent.
Clients, suppliers, partner orgs?
Unfortunately I don’t have any. I am an archivist and worked almost exclusively with one-off visitors to the archive, and with my boss. I have a professional network, but hardly any who could speak to my work directly. I’ve been restricted by personal circumstances from being able to participate in outside projects (volunteer roles etc) for a decade or so, which I regret but can’t do anything about.
I’m sorry about your former bosses :(
I’m in the US, so take my suggestions with some cultural-differences salt. Was the job where your boss was your only coworker mostly internal work, or did you do anything client-/customer-facing? If it’s the second, sometimes you can use a (former) client or a customer as a reference.
For the job before that, I think it’s worth tracking down a former peer. If there’s anyone you worked with at your current job who has since left the company, they could also potentially be a reference (I’m guessing you haven’t had a manager leave at this job, so it would just be another peer reference).
It was half internal, half assisting members of the public who were mostly one-off visitors to an archive within a large public library. I doubt the library still has a record of visitors from five years ago, and I doubt any of them remember me in any specificity if I could trace them. The other information professionals at the library all worked for a different organisation, so they could probably confirm I worked there, but no more…
I’ve not had a manager or a peer I worked with closely leave my current company, and much of my work is fairly solo: the people I’ve worked most closely with are… my boss, grandboss,, and the director. Who would all be awesome references someday! But not necessarily now.
I’m coming to realise that part of the problem is that my work is just not very collaborative in nature, so not many people could speak to how well I do it.
And I am also very sorry about them, especially the most recent, whom I worked with very closely and who died unexpectedly at no great age. He was a good guy.
It depends on your industry in the UK, but I usually default to HR for most references anyway; I don’t think I’ve had actual character references for any jobs I’ve been for (though I’ve been asked to give them for friends in roles with children). I think if you gave boss’s boss, people looking for a character references would still expect them to be able to talk to if you were ever subject to a disciplinary etc, which is part of what they’re looking for.
I don’t think I’ve ever used HR as a reference; the forms I have seen usually stipulate that it must be a current or former line manager. I would actually be a bit wary of HR for the older of the two jobs as I had some not very positive interactions to do with reasonable adjustments for disability (which have not been a problem whatsoever in more recent jobs, but it was over a decade ago).
Contacting HR might work for the other one, although they definitely wouldn’t be able to speak to the quality of my work. My yearly appraisals were pretty uninformative also, mostly because in such a small team, if the boss wanted to tell me to change something he just could; we shared an office. He hardly ever did (although I liked him and the job very much, the lack of development was one reason I left!)
I’m in the UK, but in the public sector which might be different to your setting, but I have used HR as the reference in a similar situation. Our references aren’t detailed though, basically just confirming that you worked there between these dates, you weren’t fired, there were no disciplinary or attendance issues.
At the places I’ve worked (mostly tech in the US) this would be called an employment check. A reference has an expectation of speaking to someone about the actual work.
Oof, this is tough. Different hiring managers and companies use references in different ways. I have hired, but not done reference checks (that has always gone through HR, unfortunately), but what I would have been looking for:
1) Confirmation/verification of accomplishments.
2) Reinforcement of what the candidate is like to work with (as we can be different in interviews versus on the job).
Given that, I think you’re best bet is to note your past coworkers/manager have sadly passed away and provide contacts from your professional network. It’s unlikely the hiring team will contact them, but it’s also not guranteed they will contact any references anyways. It’s not a dealbreaker.
That’s what worries me, really – the last people who could actually speak to what I was like to work with day-to-day knew me as a callow trainee! Almost everyone else in my professional network knows me on a “we catch up when we meet at a conference, she seems pleasant enough,” kind of level.
Such is life. I think I’ll try to contact my most senior former peer who’s still working in the sector, though I know that about half of my former department went on to do other things.
No advice, just sympathy. I too work as the only support employee of a sole boss — have done this 3 or 4 times, the person retires, I never had any co-workers or other managers or clients or vendors or anybody except that one boss who is now unavailable. It’s super sucky when looking for jobs, but these are the type of jobs I get offered, and no other type. Commiseration!
Yeah, I feel sure there are lots of us who have been in this position! It’s something of a pattern in this line of work, mostly because the teams are so small. The biggest I’ve ever been on had five people on it, one of whom is me, one is dead, one left the sector, and one was new and junior to me. That leaves… one, and she isn’t working for the same organisation now, although we’re LinkedIn contacts.
Remember references are about both your work quality and how you behave at work. So even someone who knows you’re helpful, show up on time, and easy to get along with can be a good reference. You make tea when it’s your turn.
You can explain the circumstances and piece together multiple data points:
– reviews from current & former companies
– reference from trusted current peer (even if you don’t work closely)
Do you have any repeat clients, internally or externally? Departments you help regularly? Grad students doing research?
I could probably find a few people who think I’m helpful. I have a lot of autonomy, an office of my own and work flexible hours so the rest might be more tricky!
I don’t really have clients as such… I work for a private nonprofit and deal with any archiving or data protection issues across the org, but most people don’t need me very often, that’s the thing. The collections aren’t open to researchers as such although anyone can make an enquiry.
I was in a similar position as you a few years ago. My former manager had died and I really couldn’t let my then current manager know I was job searching, so I had about 10 years’ worth of my annual reviews, which were all positive, ready to present in lieu of a reference call. The hiring manager was very understanding about the situation and I don’t even think he asked to see my performance reviews anyway. I got the job. Maybe they just wanted a warm body in my position, but it’s all worked out well so far.
I have used performance reviews in lieu. As a public employee you should be able to do a FOIA request to get your employment records. Some places will release your own record to you without a FOIA request.
I’m in the UK, so only government bodies come under FOI, but I could make a data subject access request. In my current company I do have copies of them all, which is just as well as the person who fulfills data subject access requests… is me.
It would probably be worth trying to get them for my more recent former workplace, but possibly not the one before that as it’s a long time ago and I don’t feel they well reflect my work now.
Here’s a “what would you do if you were me” question:
Sometime in the next few months, my company is going to be restructured. There are currently four assistant managers managing four distinct departments; those departments will be merged into one mega-department with two assistant managers managing this single unit. In exchange, the two assistant managers will be classified at a higher title (this is a civil service position) and receive a small raise, followed by a few subsequent smaller raises on a semi-annual basis. I am probably the highest-performing of the current four assistant managers and would be a virtual lock to get one of the two positions if I apply.
Sounds straightforward enough so far, but I’m facing a real quandary here:
–The new assistant managers will each have to supervise roughly double the number of people as before.
–I am burned out already dealing with issues with at least one of my reports, and there are quite a few more whammies I could end up getting hit with when teams are merged and my number of charges increases from five to 9 or 10. I have no way of knowing which people I’ll be assigned to supervise until after I apply and interview.
–If I DON’T get one of the managerial positions, I am going to be reclassified with a non-managerial title a level below where I am now, though I’ll get to keep my current salary.
My gut is telling me to not apply for one of the new managerial positions.
My spouse is very apprehensive about this and is encouraging me to apply even though she knows my stress level has gotten into the danger zone sometimes — for a few reasons:
–Even if I keep my current salary, I’m maxed out at my current civil service level and won’t get any raises beyond it. With the price of everything going up rapidly, we don’t necessarily need the money at this moment but probably will before too long. Absent a renegotiation of our union contract, applying for the new position is my only shot to get a higher salary without changing companies — and maybe changing careers — completely. (To be clear: The initial raise would amount to only about $2K annually — to manage at least four more people — but I’d be eligible for subsequent raises, also small, that I wouldn’t get in my current position.)
–Going from a higher title to a lower one is likely to look bad on my resume and hinder me from moving to a different part of the company, something I’ve been low-key looking to do.
–She argues (correctly, I think) that I’m the most trusted person in my unit and people are still going to come to me with all their problems, after being a manager for years, and if that will be the case, shouldn’t I be recognized as a supervisor and get paid more for it?
So I did exactly what I was trying to avoid and wrote a very long post. Sorry about that. All to get back to the original question: What would you do if you were me?
I think I’d apply, if for no other reason than the process might shed some better light on how the changes will be implemented. And because you might actually have some say in how those teams are laid out. There’s no harm in gathering information, showing (potential) interest, and then saying no if you don’t love what you hear.
Came here to say this.
I don’t think it can hurt to apply and see what the lay of the land is
Thank you both. I think that’s sensible advice. I guess my only fear with that strategy is that as a long-time member of the department, I’ll be under more pressure to accept if I do get one of the two positions, but I guess I need to reframe that in my head.
I’d be planning now for ways to minimise the impact of the more problematic report(s) so that they don’t overwhelm you in the new position. Are there more reliable peers that you can assign to mentor them? Are there set processes that should already be being followed, either to improve their performance or to manage them out?
You may have to be more mindful of whatever your company’s political/cultural situation is if you end up not wanting the job. Maybe keep framing the process, to yourself and everyone, as “I’m exploring this opportunity to see if I would be a good fit and if it would be a good fit for me.” “I’m keeping an open mind” is also a good phrase to employ here.
Good luck!
This. Remember, applying doesn’t mean you’re required to accept. It makes sense to keep your options open.
Also, there’s the secret third option of finding a different job :) Like, your choices aren’t between applying for the new management job or going down to a non-management role.
Looking for a new job is a GREAT idea!
Do you have a sense of if there is any sort of penalty or ramifications if you applied but ended up not accepting the job?
Because one option is to apply just as a way to buy yourself time. Time to ponder it more, time to see how those teams might be split and who would be on your team, etc.
I will say, I was in a mildly similar situation. Not the merger part, but my boss left and I was the heir-apparent for his job, and I had always said I didn’t want his job. But I was also severely underpaid, and the new job was the only way to get a salary increase. I applied to keep my options open. At the time, I was also planning to start actively job-searching in 6 months, and figured I might as well job search with a higher title and higher salary. (I ended up taking the job. I don’t hate it as much as I thought I would, but I also liked my previous job better. I am not job searching after all, because one of the big bosses left and things are better with them gone.)
That’s the question. My position is unionized and I won’t be fired if I apply but don’t accept, or don’t apply at all. What I don’t know is if applying and not accepting will turn me into “persona non grata” at my organization if I try to escape the department I’m in now. I’m well regarded within this department, but my reputation among higher levels of the institution is questionable.
The bigger issue is that I really, really don’t want to have to manage nine or ten people when I’m already struggling with my mental health managing five…
It sounds like though you’d like a pay increase, you really really really are not up for the increase in responsibility that would likely come with it, which may be your answer right there.
I’ll add things to consider:
1) given that these new positions are being formed as part of a reorg, there is likely to be a lot more to these expanded jobs beyond “manage a few more people”. There will be growing pains, dealing with reporting snafus and etc just because the new structure will be new for everyone (and likely some % of the people are going to be cranky because it involves change)
2) IME sometimes with these department reshuffles and “kind of” promotions …doing the same role, just with more reports what one thinks the raise will be turns out to … not actually pan out. Your employer is already signaling that they aren’t looking to beef up pay for these 2 new roles ($2000 per year = $166 per month, raises going forward will be stingy) It’s possibly the reality may be even less rosy when it all comes down. If this company wants someone to fill these roles, and do the job well, they should be willing to pay them for the big increase in complexity, difficulty, responsibility they are taking on.
Though you say your family could use the extra money, with the increased workload, stress, negative impact on your mental health, it sounds like, as the saying goes
“the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze” for you, right now, with this particular situation.
Consider sitting out this round of promotions, focus on regaining your work/life/mental health balance, and coming up with ways to increase visibility in your current role? That would be my approach unless I thought I’d be able to have *significant* positive influence on how my role, this new dept structure, my own mental health would be if I took a promotion AND had indications that taking the new role would lead to a significant increase in compensation or opportunity pretty quickly.
Keep in mind also that with the added responsibility, there is a risk you will not be able to handle the new job and it will cause you more problems down the road. I say that not to be mean or to question your competence. More that if it’s already a struggle in your current environment / role to manage 5 people, it’s quite possible that managing double that would actually be impossible.
I think I would apply. The change is going to happen regardless; you can either get in ahead of it and help drive the future, or be driven by one of three people you state are lower performers than you and be part of a future you don’t really have control over. That is likely to be a recipe for stress and frustration in itself.
“That is likely to be a recipe for stress and frustration in itself” … how true.
Thank you for giving me a different way of looking at this.
I agree with the others to apply at the least to buy time and gather information. At the same time, I’d really take this as an opportunity to step back and think about what your longer term plan here is. If you’re already burned out and wary of taking on more, but you’re maxed out on salary and going to need more money, you are in fact in a bit of a bind in your current situation and may need to look elsewhere. From your post it seems you’re a little reluctant to do so but at the the same time the options from your current situation don’t necessarily meet your needs either. This is also important to think about now because if you do decide to leave then you may want to factor that into your current plans as well, eg do you take the higher position to boost your resume and then leverage that into a position that works better for you elsewhere
You hit the nail on the head. Right now I’m considering all my options, including talking to a career counselor or someone similar. Inertia is a real thing; I’m in a field where there just aren’t many jobs that pay more than I’m making now.
I’d apply to keep options open, as others have said. In the interview you could point out that 9-10 direct reports is A Lot (and beyond recommended organizational structure) and explore whether you’d have the opportunity to recommend additional org changes once you’ve had the role a while and people have had a chance to test the new configuration. Maybe you could designate some team leads to buffer at least a bit of the part you’re dreading, if people with that potential or interest might be part of the new team based on your knowledge of those who would be reorged into this new set-up.
I’d focus your energy on believing in yourself that you can find a way to do this-kind of smarter, not harder. Study up on de-stressing at work. Build up your team. Do group rather than one on one meetings. Don’t look at your phone at night. Get more comfortable with the B+ job on certain things. And get your money.
You can do this-don’t approach with fear
You’re effectively being asked to apply to a new job in the new organization. While applying for the new job in the new organization, you might as well step up your job search outside your current company, so you can choose between all your new options.
Any technical writers here? Specifically in old-school engineering (like hardware, not big T Tech or software). I’m in a new role and looking for resources, communities of practice, anything like that! I feel a little like I’ve been thrown in the deep end, and I’m looking for some lifelines. Thanks!
Most of the resources I’m finding online seem to be software/tech focused and it’s very different.
Have you tried the professional societies? IEEE or equivalent for mechanical/civil engineers? Or your industry trade groups?
I’ve used the IEEE style manual but I didn’t think to look for a technical writing subgroup. I’ve specifically been looking for technical writing professional organizations. It looks like IEEE has a professional communications subgroup before. I’m not seeing an ASME equivalent but this is a great start. Can’t believe I didn’t think of this. Thanks!
That’s an excellent question this week, since the Society for Technical Communication has closed. Where do we look for help?
I think IEEE is a good idea, and you could also look for a Write the Docs (I hope this name is right) group in your area.
Oh, it did? I relied a lot on the STC in earlier days, especially that job board. It’s a pity it’s gone.
Closed this week. Sad to see because they did offer some great resources.
As a longtime member and volunteer, a lot of us are hearbroken. I don’t think I’m exaggerating when I say that.
I am very concerned about the resources that were available on their website. I hope that they will be purchased and made available through some other avenue.
Of course you’re not exaggerating! It was an amazing organization with priceless resources.
I’ll look into this, thanks!
How are spot bonuses awarded in your org? I want to add a spot bonus policy, but I’m not sure what terms I should consider!
– how much? a % of your salary?
– what qualifies one to receive one? I want to tie it to specific accomplishments or activities but not sure how to make it fair for all to see.
– who all can recommend one to be given? eg any peer nomination, only direct managers, or only head? We are pretty small but do have a few layers.
At my company, it’s flat amounts. There are multiple programs for it. Some are peer nominations (can be nominated as an individual or an entire project team) and others are a higher level ‘gold star’ type. With the exception of the larger dollar ones, the financial awards are ‘bulked up’ so that the person being awarded ends up with the full amount after taxes. All of the peer/org nomination awards go through a committee who reviews the nominations and selects the ones that best represent that particular category. Peer nominations are around $500 per person award. The one ‘gold star’ award I got was $5K. We also have a quick recognition program that has a $50 award. Anyone can nominate. Anyone can win. We have a lot of orgs as we are a large company so each org has it’s own version of these.
I once worked for a publisher (small staff, under 20) who would pass out $100 bills to everyone if we had a good revenue quarter. This was an organization that already fairly paid the hardworking staff, so it was an added nice thing I remember years later.
process run on a quarterly basis, flat amounts in 500 dollar increments up to $3000. Nominations have to be submitted to HR by member of leadership team (but a manager under them can do the write up, just has to be vetted and approved by a member of leadership team). Nominations have some basic information (name, department, amount of reward suggested, etc) and they have a space for a narrative that should be used to document the specific accomplishments by the EE that went above and beyond. All nominations are then collected and reviewed by the leadership team for any questions or concerned (generally there aren’t any/many) and if there are no issues with the nominations or the amounts requested then they get approved and the employee gets a letter along with the deposited cash award.
Our spot bonuses are different tiers, I think from $50 to $500, or maybe even $1000. Not scaled for salary, but the employer chips in tax etc, so that after all the paycheck deductions, we get the full amount.
Everyone can nominate anyone with the supervisor’s approval. The recipient’s home department has an annual pot of money set aside for this. We have a lot of cross department collaboration, and if for example I nominate my IT guy (whose home department is IT but he supports my department), sometimes the approval gets weirdly complicated, I think the system is not set up for this.
It’s nice to share out who in the team has received an award in monthly/quarterly meetings, and give kudos publicly. That also sets the tone for what should qualify, even if it’s too vague to write into a policy. There seems to be an unspoken rule that most staff get one every 2-3 years.
My company has peer-awarded bonuses for small amounts (think like $150), and management chain-awarded bonuses for larger amounts (typically a flat amount like $500 or $2000). For the peer ones, peers can nominate you for literally anything, but your manager has to approve it. I like to give one when a peer gives me more help on a project than they really had to, and I generally get them for the same kind of thing.
I was rehearsing for a grad school interview (fingers crossed that I get it!) and I was pacing in my kitchen, practicing what I wanted to say.
What I meant to say: “I plan to work full-time and be in school part-time.”
What I ended up saying: “I plan to work fart-time.”
New fear unlocked for the interview!!
Listen, sometimes that’s how I’m working after lunch *shrug*
One of the many benefits from WFH is no one else cares if I’m working fart-time.
Better than “I plan to fart full-time.”
Forget it. I’m sure you’ll be fine.
I also do that, but I wfh so no one cares but my dog.
me too. But the dog doesn’t care; he is also working fart-time.
LOL! This would certainly make you memorable for the interviewers!
Wishing you the best of luck and no slips of the tongue.
Agreed on the memorable part! And so it’s not really a bad thing. Most people fumble their words at one point. You didn’t you a vulgar word. You didn’t insult the interviewer. You will be fine.
Aren’t we all working fart-time at some point in the day?
Bahahaha!
I’m sure you’ll be fine. It’s totally okay to pause before you speak. Personally, I would love this if I were an interviewer. We would have a giggle and it would not count against you.
If you’d be working during the day and taking evening classes, you could say “I plan to work full time and attend school in the evenings.” There, no part/fart. :)
Applying at the Bush’s Baked Beans cannery, are we? :D
Having worked in a graduate school, I can tell you that the professors on your interview committee have seen it all before. If you actually said that in the interview, I’d bet money they wouldn’t even blink.
Seriously, every year there is always That One Freaky Dude whose written application looks great, but then he comes in with cigarette breath wearing his unwashed hippie suit and beret — why is it ALWAYS a beret?? — who sweats and farts his way through the interview before delivering a bizarre speech at the end about threats to academic freedom. You have nothing to worry about, sweetie. You will ROCK that interview.
We had to apply for—and interview for – our extra responsibility positions every year. It was a tradition that when someone went off for their interview a co-worker would tell them, at the last possible moment, “Whatever you do, don’t say f**k”. So that was in your head when you walked into the interview room.
How do you answer the interview question about why you’re job hunting when making applying for the same title/lateral move? I’m currently paid undermarked value at my current position and applying to similar roles that pay better. In the past my go-to answers have been that I’m looking for growth, more responsibility, etc. But that isn’t very applicable here because the roles are the equal, on paper it wouldn’t really be growth based on the job duties. I know they hate if we bring up pay during interview, but really that’s the only change I’m looking for. What’s a good way to frame it?
I would tell them the truth – that I like what I do, but I think I bring more value to the organization than is reflected in my paycheck.
Yeah, I think the truth is OK too. One thing I would add on is a specific reason you applied to that job-posting (not pay-related). For example:
“I like what I do, but I think I bring more value to the organization than is reflected in my paycheck. I was excited to apply to ACME Corp. because you have such a strong reputation for your focus on quality widgets.”
or
“I like what I do, but I think I bring more value to the organization than is reflected in my paycheck. I was excited to apply to ACME Corp. because I see you have XYZ on the job listing and that’s one of my strengths as a [job title].”
So why are you being underpaid?
It’s because your current employer isn’t investing in the future, or meeting revenue targets, etc? I’d start there.
“I want to work at a company with more commitment to …”
Yes, this is a good suggestion. Or focus on the differences in the companies or, if you know, the projects you’d be working on. “I have learned a lot here at Acme Corp and I have really enjoyed working on their anvil project, but I’ve heard good things about Coyote Company and your tunnel painting project and would love to be part of it. Here’s what I bring to the table that I think would benefit tunnel painting.” Or whatever.
I don’t think I’d come right out and say you want a higher salary, even though it’s the truth and you have nothing to be ashamed of for it (that’s one of the two main reasons I found a new job last year and I’m not ashamed to admit it either). I think it’s pretty much understood that people looking to do lateral moves to new companies are doing it because they want higher pay, among other things. What interviewers want you to say is not the obvious (and necessary) “monnnnneyyyyy” answer, but a more nuanced and thoughtful reason as to why you applied for their job opening specifically.
This exactly. Use the question to pivot to talking about the things that make you interested in working at the place you’re interviewing. Focus on why you’d want to work there, rather than issues with your current job.
If you can, say that your current job has you doing X, Y, and Z each about a third of the time and Y is your favourite, so you want a role that lets you do that for more of the time (obviously, only if the job spec has a lot of Y). Or do they have a different approach / method of doing stuff you’d like to learn?
I just did this and I said I wanted to focus on X thing (that the new job was focused on), rather than being pulled in different directions like in my current role. It had the advantage of being true but it could also work on spin when what you really want is more money. I’ve also seen “more stability” or a bigger team, or more opportunities for mentorship.
I think of my answers to these types of questions as telling the truth, but not the whole truth. In my last job switch, I said that I was interested in getting back to my roots and doing X. 100% true! What was also true – and didn’t get mentioned – was that the reason I started thinking about and looking for a change was to escape a micromanaging boss who was giving me stress hives.
One answer: Speak to what you value about the company you’re interviewing with. “I like x, y, and z about what you’re working on, and I see that I could contribute and learn…” While it is lateral, there CAN be things about the new company that you see as better, more unique, etc. And it shows that you’ve done some research about the company.
Second answer: “I really enjoy doing the work that I do, and it isn’t only about the money, but I have found that I’m earning well below market and need to make a move that allows me to be compensated competitively.”
If you’re currently at a small org and you are interviewing with a larger org, saying you want to work at a bigger company can satisfy interviewers. If you’ve been at a certain level at a small company, having that same job at a bigger company can often be a way to advance later on, as bigger orgs often have more opportunities for advancement than small places.
I imagine bigger orgs may have more resources for training. They’d almost certainly have more options for people who could be mentors.
In the inverse, a smaller organization would let you become more familiar with the full range of things the company does, etc.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that you have discovered you are being paid below market for your role / skills, experience level, and that it isn’t likely to change, and you want a position with growth opportunities.
The only people who will be turned off by that are the ones who were also planning to underpay you.
Fellow librarians and library workers! I have a somewhat weird question. Have you heard of something called the Zone Service Model? I don’t mean a general, modern idea about making library desks smaller and having librarians more accessible. I mean a particular workflow model called the Zone Service Model, with zones A, B and C. We have this at my library, and the way management talks about it, I just assumed that it was a library thing lots of libraries were moving to. However the other day, I heard something that makes it sound like my library management developed this new system of zones/rules itself, which would, uh, explain a lot. I’m genuinely curious, is Zone Service Model a thing? I’m in the U.S.
Have never heard of it — I’m in an academic library, R1. Good luck.
I’m in an R1 academic library but worked at a medium large public library for seven years- never heard of it. I also googled it just now and didn’t find any reference to anything like what you’re talking about (tho there is something called zone management framework- not the same thing.)
Librarian here–I have not heard of it, certainly not as a specifically library-type thing.
What do the different zones do? If you can say in a nutshell what the different zones are. I’ve vaguely heard of it in systems that have people float around (like in a retail “can I help you?” sense), but not how that actually works.
Basically, A is Ask Desk, C is Circ Desk, and B is floating. There is also Workroom. Where the zone thing gets tricky from a staffing need is that, according the Zone Service Model, you’re not supposed to do any checking in at anything but C desk or the Workroom, and equipment is distributed to that end. Yet there aren’t often enough people to have all zones staffed.
I’m an assistant director in a public library and I’ve never heard of it.
I’m in library professional development and have been to approximately one zillion conferences, webinars, etc and this is not ringing a bell. That is absolutely not to say that they’ve taken service point concepts and adapted for your library (or that this exists out there in practice). Heck, they may have even taken this concept from another industry. From the way you’re phrasing your question it seems like you view it as a workflow that doesn’t quite work in practice?
I’ve been a medical librarian, hospital librarian, and librarian for undergrads. Haven’t heard of this at any of those 3 positions/institution
Sounds like a sports thing – like zone defense vs man for man defense.
Otherwise, I’d assume that locations or positions are grouped into zones, with cross-training, so that anyone assigned to a zone can pitch in for any position or location in the zone. However, if you don’t have enough coverage for all zones, you’re going to have to have zone alternates or something – where your Zone A people can also cover most Zone D stuff in a pinch and your Zone B people can also cover most Zone C stuff in a pinch – and then if something comes up in the alternate Zone that they can’t do, a supervisor steps in?
I think we kind of did this in retail back in the day because we never had enough single department coverage, so we had to group coverage and cross-train. There were always gaps and managers had to step in for those.
So, the closest I can recall is that I’ve seen some things in building planning about “zones of service” and the idea was, if I recall, that different physical areas would be designed for different types of patrons or different forms of patron need.
However, that’s the only context I’ve seen that term used and it was in a very narrow conversation about placement of service desks.
Another librarian here; I haven’t heard of this referred to as a “zone service model” but our library has recently made a change to exactly this. I work in a central library within a large library system. Until about seven months ago, there were multiple subject departments and staff were hired for — and worked within — only a single department. Now everyone works in every department within the building. It’s been interesting.
Librarian here. Never heard of it. Understaffing, unfortunately, is far too familiar.
I am curious about people who have transitioned from retail/kitchen environments into a more corporate or at least just not retail environment. My boyfriend was a professional chef most of his life, but it’s pretty physically demanding so more recently he’s worked more in a retail/grocery setting and now he’s a manager of a section at a chain grocery store, but it comes with all the “fun” of retail–constant call offs, firings because of constant call offs, no set schedule–working nights, weekends, but it can all differ one week to the next, not to mention never being off on most holidays. He doesn’t think he has a lot of transferable skills into something he would call a “desk job,” but I’m wondering if anyone has been able to make this sort of switch.
Worked successfully in a fast paced environment; Flexible and creative thinker (can pivot quickly); Talented multitasker; Familiarity with taking and maintaining inventory
I feel like you could swing that into a office manager type role. IT support entry level ‘did you try turning it off and on again’ is soul crushing but you can move up quickly.
While I have no made this shift I have hired people who have made this shift.
This is where a great cover letter comes in. Think of all the soft skills professional chefs have – Great time management, leading the prep people, ability to be flexible (someone has an allergy or an ingredient runs out). Did he ever do any ordering, plan menus and then have to order food around that – that logistics management is a huge skill!
I am not sure what he is interested in, but my first thought with those skill sets is disaster preparedness. I can’t suggest that anyone go work for FEMA right now, but every state and county has an office of disaster preparedness where they are doing work that is about pre planning and then using both soft skills from kitchens and retail to respond to disasters. The red cross and other non-profits also do this. Once he finds a job he is interested in a specific tailored cover letter will be required to explain how the soft skills translate. Also he may have to start at kind of entry level jobs. When I did a big jump I had to go like two steps backwards so I could learn culture and specific ways of doing things, but I then promoted really fast.
It sounds like he has experience managing people, and that is a broadly transferable skill. One way to migrate into a corporate environment is to look for management/team lead jobs in customer-facing departments. The people management skill maps directly, and the service element is consistent with somebody coming from a retail environment.
There are a lot of options: straight customer service call centers (there are tons of these…banks, credit card companies, cable companies, etc.). Other good examples: health insurance companies have departments that work with doctors/hospitals to resolve claims and billing issues…they also have departments that work with their corporate customers to manage their employee enrollments, etc. All of these have layers of management.
If he’s managed retail employees, he has solid equivalent experience, and would be a good candidate. One bonus: attrition in these environments is fairly high, so he should have lots of opportunities for movement once he’s in the door.
One additional thought that probably won’t come up until the interviewing begins (but I guess could be mentioned in a cover letter): as a chef, he’s demonstrated the ability to deliver on time every time, in a stressful environment, and to respond to constant change (menus change, staffing is variable, busy vs. slow nights, etc.). And to pile on what ‘strive to excel’ brought up: attention to detail and the ability to consistently deliver high quality output are hugely marketable competencies.
Plus, he has an interesting story. When I’m in a hiring position, I’m always interested in people who have taken unconventional paths, or who have had experiences that aren’t typical in the roles I hire for. I’m not saying it’s a deal-maker, but it usually makes me say to myself “I’d like to talk to this person”.
I love your first paragraph, Mike. That’s a great way to put it.
I lurk on the r/kitchenconfidential subreddit and people go a couple of places:
– more stable kitchens; think corporate canteens, university catering, hospital or care home settings etc
– kitchen adjacent companies: suppliers, manufactures of kitchen goods etc. use whatever network or contacts he already has to help get a foot in the door
– like spcepickle suggested, other entry level jobs with similar transferable skills in hospitality adjacent places. my first thought was events/event planning, but even something like office admin/reception type work could be a fit and have a fair amount of crossover especially if you sell it right
If a variable/changing schedule & not having holidays off is what he wants to get away from, I probably wouldn’t recommend events/event planning as it is all that… but even more so!
A lot of people do this when moving from the standard raft of young adult jobs to a first big job. That’s not the same thing as a full career shift, but hopefully I might have some transferrable advice.
He absolutely has transferable skills. Chefs need to simultaneously have attention to detail and keeping a manageable flow while also being able to be flexible. He’s learned to do it on a minute-to-minute basis but that’s very applicable to an environment. He’s dealt with food safety regs? That can be pivoted nicely into regulation management in general. I wouldn’t say he can be an OSHA inspector right this second but it means he’s familiar with getting things done while having to document and comply with outside regulatory pressure. Did he do any sort of inventory management? Menu creation? General running-of-a-kitchen? It’s possible then he has experience negotiating/working with outside vendors, managing limited inventory space, and tracking the flow so that things are appropriately used. If he can take a bit of time and get himself basic Microsoft Office familiarity – there’s some decent certificate options Microsoft offers – that wouldn’t hurt. That would cover the “can computer” aspect of hiring for a “desk job”.
As to where – can he look for a job where his food service background would be a benefit? Catering or event planning perhaps?
Office management or Customer Service come to mind. I agree to focus on the skills vs the jobs on the resume/in the interview.
I work with someone who was a chef for over a decade and is now a teacher. He says being a chef was excellent training before going into teaching.
My city has a program to provide training for career changers. Some technical schools have culinary programs, but the most demand right now is for special ed teachers.
When I moved from being a restaurant manager to sales support for an insurance agency, I was a bit lucky that my boss also came from restaurants previously. But I think articulating the level of accuracy of my inventory management (within tenths of a percent on critical items!) as an example of attention to detail and data, having high standards for customer satisfaction and speaking to details like addressing positive and negative feedback, and a willingness to learn and pivot were impactful in my interviews. I did have some front desk experience in college to draw on as well. It was easier on my body but customer service – despite being good at it – was not for me, but it was a great stepping stone to other office work that wasn’t customer-facing.
I’ve known a couple of chefs in my life, and when they transitioned, both of them went to managerial roles at a chain restaurant. One was Panera bread, and one was some kind of seafood chain. Both report there’s much less stress, they have supportive upper management, and the problems your listing don’t seem to be problems.
I don’t have any other advice besides that but good luck.
I worked with a former head pastry chef. We were in training. She had moved up from Claims Entry (insurance company) and eventually became a manager.
I agree to focus on the skills – for a lot of roles that’s the important part
Still miss the cheesecake she would bring in sometimes.
My brother did a part time program where he received a certificate (associate degree?) in cad cam design. He landed a job at a company that designs and makes building elements like trusses. He loves it and based on his years of managing kitchens as a chef was fairly quickly promoted to managing his group. He was 50 and needed a job where he wasn’t on his feet all day plus could be home with his wife at night.
When we hire from stores or retail, one thing we look for is computer skills. If he can take some excel/word/outlook etc classes (lots are free at libraries!) That’s something he can bring up and makes him look good for people as they wonder whether he fits into an office.
The people management has been covered below I think, but I’m wondering if he does anything with the inventory for his section: purchasing (writing POs, managing receipts and confirmations, etc) rotating inventory, damaging out, etc. If so, I’ve worked with a lot of people in various purchasing roles related to construction/home services: HVAC distributors, plumbing distributors, etc. Order writing, inside sales, purchasing manager, inventory, etc. Juggling priorities and working efficiently like he did in a kitchen would also be a big plus. The lingo might take some time to pick up on but I wouldn’t sweat it.
As someone who worked retail for years – including 3 that involved a substantial customer service component – you can end up with epic interpersonal skills. I can take people from being super grumpy or pissed off to chill (or even happy) as well as anyone. I’m great at solving problems and dealing with issues, because that was like half my job for those 3 years.
I can only imagine how good a chef would be at working under pressure / with strict time limits and handling 87 things at the same time.
If there is any sort of corporate headquarters nearby at his current company or even with a competitor, perhaps making a shift to buyer or something else in HQ. This allows a way to start in an office environment absolutely using his current skills and then he can make a next pivot to something else or he may even like his first option!
My brother did this. He was a chef with some management responsibilities. He watched videos about Comptia (spelling?) certification and other techy things on you tube. Before he earned the certification, he got a job giving tech help/customer service to customers who are health care providers. After about a year, he was able to get a promotion to be a trainer, and recently got a second promotion. According to him, they were impressed with his skills in the interview for handling trainees, which he has developed while managing many different types of people in the kitchen. He made the switch a few/several years ago and while he missed. His advice to me (thinking about a similar switch) is to expect to put in your time for a year or so and then you might be able to move up. He likes being able to leave work at work.
I knew someone who made the switch from chef to corporate food service/canteen when he had young children. Mostly regular daytime hours with occasional special events. He also was involved with local vocational training programs.
Thank you to all who weighed in last week when I asked for possible wfh/flex jobs now that my son is able to return to the workforce. Your suggestions were really helpful! And thank you too for the condolences…the past four years have been pretty shitty for our families.
Again, I really appreciate all your comments.
I hope things work out for your son! Best wishes!
Good luck to you both!
I had an anxiety attack (for the first time in years) at my fast-paced job. I finished my work while visibly distressed.
An unrelated medical condition caused similar episodes in the last few months. I have just gotten a diagnosis for that.
I’m worried that I’ll be seen as unreliable or fragile.
1) My manager responded to the anxiety attack in a way that’s completely reasonable but left me feeling unsupported on a personal level. How can I work to get over this?
2) Does anyone who’s been in a similar situation have advice or input?
I’d encourage you to get the support on a personal level from someone who isn’t your manager. It sounds like they did the manager behavior of getting you through the work thing, and it’ll be on you to handle the personal.
Anything that you can do to project an air of “I know what I can do to manage this health issue” will help to minimize the “unreliable” vibe.
yes, this. Don’t leave your manager thinking you are expecting them to provide you personal support, that will indeed make you seem fragile.
Do what you can to learn to manage the anxiety attacks and the new diagnosis, and communicate that you have a health issue that you are learning to manage, sorry for the disruption but you are working to get it under control, nothing to see here…
I second this. I supervise someone like Night’s Watch and it challenges the boundaries between work and personal life for the whole team. In my case, I want my employee to figure out what she needs from me and ask for it – I’m happy to be flexible and supportive – but I can’t manage her emotions for her, or allow her to leave them all over the floor for others to trip over. She recently told me she’s seeking outside help and it’s been very reassuring. No one should feel obligated to disclose something like that to the boss, but demonstrating that you are working on it is a good thing.
I now have FMLA paperwork in process for the relevant mental health conditions and my manager knows that. So that’s better on the “working on it” front.
To clarify – I wasn’t asking for emotional support but for help with a major time sensitive task I didn’t think I could complete to standard (because of the breakdown).
“My manager responded to the anxiety attack in a way that’s completely reasonable but left me feeling unsupported on a personal level. How can I work to get over this?”
Number one for this is do not rely on your manager for personal support. Find someone in your personal life, maybe someone who can text during the day. I’ve got a group chat with my long distance friends who are in multiple time zones and jobs/schedules that allow for texting sometimes, so it’s great to have people I can throw a message to during the day and likely get a response. Otherwise obviously someone at home you can debrief with at the end of the day is good too.
But your boss presumably does not (and should not) have the kind of relationship with you where they’re giving you personal support, it’s not appropriate. If they said something really clearly rude or insensitive or similar, that’s one thing, but if they’re just sticking to the work issues (and maybe mentioning the EAP or such if you need that) that’s a reasonable boundary.
To help myself feel better about this, I would probably go with thanking the boss in a day or two about helping you manage X work thing (or whatever it was that seemed reasonable to you) while you were dealing with a medical condition flaring up. And I like to be as brief as possible and try not to ask for reassurance so that I don’t find myself trying to judge their sincerity…. I’m the type that really likes to acknowledge things to close the loop so that I can put my mind at ease; YMMV on if this will work for you.
Sounds like you already have good self-awareness to understand that what you’re experiencing is anxiety; you are ahead of where I was! I didn’t initially understand what I was going through as a health issue. I “worked” (totally ineffectively) through several anxiety attacks (in a new job, while having a physical health crisis, and in tight financial circumstances) telling myself I must just be a lot more “stressed” than usual. I wish I hadn’t—I was visibly a hot mess, and it couldn’t have been good for my professional rep (that said, my rep turned out just fine in the long run! People remember that you treat them kindly, and forget or forgive most else, I’m finding). The day I came into work, realized I could not possibly focus my mind, and realized that I could tell my boss I wasn’t feeling well and needed to go home immediately was the turning point for me towards getting better. It turned out no one needed to know why I wasn’t feeling well or the nature of it, it was fine to say: I urgently don’t feel well, I cannot work, I’d hoped to do XYZ today but I can’t, I’ll take some work with me in case I feel better later and I’ll be in touch tomorrow, thank you for understanding, bye!
If you can in this job, I’d use sick leave for acute attacks, use personal leave planned well in advance for a day here and there to let yourself catch a break, and in the long run, go/return to therapy for help reducing the frequency/intensity of the attacks. One thing therapists help with is recognizing when anxiety is starting to flare up, which can help you know when it’s time to call off sick if the runaway train can’t be stopped this time, in addition to interventions you can make before the train gathers so much momentum. But you probably know that. :)
Once I started identifying triggers, I was able to make lifestyle changes that reduced my anxiety overall, and to see how certain aspects of my new job were hurting or not helping. Since they weren’t core aspects of the job itself, I did make some concrete requests of my boss, but FWIW, I did not frame these as accommodations and I never was open with my boss about having anxiety because I didn’t feel safe disclosing in my workplace. They were requests like, would it be ok if I shifted my schedule on Thursdays earlier by an hour (to go to a gym class)? Can we touch base each week on which projects (I juggled over a dozen) need to be prioritized? Could we do 1:1s in the morning instead of the late afternoon (i.e., at a time when my brain is less prone to catastrophizing)?
Your concerns make sense to me. However, only no-showing and non-communicating would make a worker unreliable. If you are upfront about what you can accomplish today/this week, telling supervisors what help you need (if anything) to accomplish your job, and using your legal/contractual time off when you’re not able to do the core work, you’re a-ok. As for “fragile,” I’m guessing that’s more a feeling you have than something anyone who’s not you (or someone very close and attentive to you) sees. Good coworkers get sick, right? Maybe it helps to think about being someone who your coworkers think of as a good coworker who’s sometimes sick.
How do you stay positive during a job search?
I’ve applied to almost a hundred jobs in the last couple months and I’ve been met with 95% silence and 5% rejections. I know it hasn’t been that long and I know it’s really rough out there, and I usually assume I’m throwing my application into a black hole and then hope to be surprised, but this last rejection hit me funny. It wasn’t anything bad just something like thanks for applying but we’re not moving forward with you, yadda yadda, we received over 1,100 applications so we can’t provide individual feedback etc etc.
Over 1100 applications for this one job?? It wasn’t even a famous or prestigious company. I know it’s hard out there and I’m trying to not let myself despair about it, but seeing a real number in black and white kinda hit me in the face a bit.
(I am in a fortunate position that I am employed in a job I actually enjoy, it’s just that the RTO mandate is making me miserable and negatively affects my family, so I’m trying to find something with a better commute and/or more flexibility like my job used to have.)
Ugh it’s definitely tough. And I think this is a really weird time with a lot of people suddenly wanting almost any remote/flexible job so I think it’s just really going to take more patience and zen right now, like it did when Covid first hit and everybody had to be as flexible as they could.
It’s worth bearing in mind that sometimes an advert goes viral, in so far as ads can. A colleagues advertised half a dozen positions for an entry-level role that normally saw 10-20 applications per opening, and set aside time accordingly for reviewing applications, but it went viral on tiktok and they got thousands of applications. But you know that next time those roles come up, they’ll almost certainly be back to the usual proportions.
1,100 applications does not mean there are 1100 people who are even close to qualified for this job, so it isn’t a good barometer of the job market, but only sheds light on why the company is slow to respond or didn’t give you any information.
My experience on the hiring side is people just spam their resumes and most applications unfortunately were not from serious candidates or even people who had read the entire job posting. It does screw over qualified candidates, because when 80% or more of applications were junk, the volume made it hard to find them.
Absolutely agree. My org is fully remote, so when I am hiring, if we post on Indeed or other big boards, we will get over a thousand applications in 48 hours. Only a small percentage–usually 150 or so–actually include a cover letter, and even a smaller percentage of those are relevant and helpful. If you are doing applications in a thoughtful, targeted way and showing actual interest in the job, those 1100 people are not your competition. Don’t let the number freak you out.
Appreciate this answer from the hiring side.
I’m also currently employed and honestly took a break from job searching starting in December. It’s hard! I feel like I might be ready to get started again, but I also have appreciated my job especially since my industry is getting hit hard by Trump’s recent decisions, so might wait a little longer.
Can you do any networking? Meet up for coffee with people in your industry or former coworkers who are at new jobs? Let your network know you’re looking. I know it’s hard – I find networking really difficult – but it really does help in getting your foot in the door. Two places where I ended up interviewing (not selected at the end) were connections through my network.
Try not to be discouraged by that number. Some of the online job-application-aggregators like Indeed make it so easy to apply that people are applying for massive numbers of positions. I had over 350 applicants for one recent hire I made and no more than 10% were in any way qualified (think only landscaping or forklift experience for a high-detailed administrative job, with no cover letter explaining why this would be a shift that made sense). I really appreciate applications that are thoughtful and complete and help me understand why you make sense for the role.
This has also been my experience. It’s just people who think finding a job is a numbers game, so they auto-send their cv anywhere and everywhere. If that company really did have such a high number of applications, chances are a lot of them weren’t remotely viable.
I have done a bit of hiring for a casual position tending livestock, and I still remember one application whose cover letter spoke glowingly of their skills in sales and marketing. Didn’t even reply to that one. I mean, what do you tell them? Our young critters aren’t allowed to buy anything so you are wasting your time? Obviously somebody just trying to send out as many resumes as possible and hoping that one sticks somewhere.
Also, I knew of someone in a writer’s group where they did a 100 rejections challenge. The idea was that you had to submit your poetry somewhere in order to get those rejections, and the goal was to get to that number in a year. It was a struggle, because they would send out a group of submissions and then get accepted, so had to keep sending more.
Slightly different for job hunting, but could you count the responses and reward yourself at certain intervals? Small intervals, like 5 acknowledgements of a submission, or 2 canned rejections, etc. In effect celebrate rejections? If you are someone with the sense of humour that this resonates with, it might amuse you and lighten things a bit.
Either way, I sympathise, because job hunting is not something that comes easily or naturally for many of us, and is even more frustrating and annoying in a tough job market. I wish you courage and perseverance at a challenging time.
I am also job hunting and receiving only silence or rejection. I don’t have a job currently as I moved states but thankfully have some savings.
I (1) keep reminding myself that I only need one place to say “yes.” Or, to put it another way, they can knock you down 100 times but you still win if you stand up 101 times. And (2) I work on personal projects when I’m done hunting/applying for the day so I don’t have so much time to obsess over it.
Best of luck to you! I hope a great company recognizes your worth soon and snatches you right up.
FWIW, every role I’ve been involved with hiring for in the past 10 years got at least 400 applicants. Not famous or prestigious companies. At my current workplace, we cut off postings after 500 applications or one week, whichever comes first. But out of the 500 applications, there are generally only 20-30 qualified enough to phone screen. The “real number” definitely includes a TON of “you’re a pastry chef with no mention of finance background, why are you applying for a CPA required job” or similar mismatch.
I’ve just backed out of a job offer because I had second thoughts during the negotiations. I was hoping to hear people’s stories about times when something felt off during a hiring process.
Did you choose to accept it? What happened? Did you ever work out why you were uncomfortable?
I had an interview a few years ago during which something – or rather several things – felt off. I was on-site for an interview. I really liked the people. The compensation was good. The opportunities were good. Hell, I was good. I think I interviewed as well as I ever have. But there were two things that made me uncomfortable. I kind of knew one of them going into the process, and the other became very apparent when I was brought on-site. Both were really on me, not the job or the company. So I withdrew and don’t regret it a bit.
Should have said this… If you felt off, even if you don’t identify it right away, trust your gut. Accepting and moving into a job that doesn’t feel right from the outset is probably setting yourself up for a more challenging experience.
I really appreciate what you say about the things not necessarily being on the job or the company. I feel like I was trying to logic my way into wanting the job because the people seemed nice and everything else was mostly in line with what I was looking for. When I spoke about my doubts to my mentor, they agreed there were no red flags from what I’d said and it would be a solid opportunity.
It took me a few days to get to the point where I identified that nothing specific had to be wrong; not wanting the job is enough!
I agree with Somehow I Manage – trust your gut. Your brain has noticed something wrong even if you can’t fully grasp what it is. If you had the option to walk away I think you were right to do so.
Not quite sure if this is “trust your gut” territory, but years ago when I interviewed for a job I realized the office was completely underground and there were no windows. I didn’t get a good feeling about that but I was desperate for a job and I took it. It ended up sucking – zero natural light for 9 hours a day, and during the winter I never really saw the sun unless I made an effort to step outside in the middle of the day.
Alternatively I interviewed for a job that I wasn’t excited about but I got a good feeling I couldn’t really explain from the manager, so I took it. (TBF I was unemployed and wasn’t in much of a position to turn it down, but getting a good gut feeling made it easier to say yes.) And I was right! She was one of the best managers I ever had and for a time it was the best job I had ever had.
Thank you for both of these! It’s nice to hear about a good gut feeling working out as well
took a job I was fairly sure was going to be a bad fit, but for *reasons* was unfortunately the logical thing to do. it was indeed a bad fit, and I left after 9 months. learnt a lot about terrible bosses and how you can spot the signs of them during interviews (they were more interested in talking than listening to my answers; I did not have good vibes after the interview)
Ooh the *reasons* were why I accepted the verbal offer. On paper it looked like it would be good professional experience and that there weren’t any real downsides, but I just felt dread thinking about making the move
This happened to only I went ahead with the offer and it did not go well! I almost called my previous employer to ask for my job back after the first week! The reality was that I needed to be doing something else (neither of those jobs), so I ended up trying to make the best of things and then leaving as soon as I could.
I had a similar experience. I took a job that I knew would be a bad fit but I needed for several reasons (including severance was running out). It was worse than I expected and I left after 10 months. However, it filled the gap on my resume, paid the bills and gave me a bit of experience doing the one thing I was lacking related to my field/prior jobs.
I ended up in a great job at a great company and will hopefully stay here for a while.
I accepted a job once and immediately had second thoughts because they insisted I start a week earlier than I had wanted because my new grandboss had scheduled a group training session they wanted me to attend, and then I started getting emails from the grandboss at 10pm about this training before I even started. I ended up going through with it, the training was near useless to me since I wasn’t familiar with the new company’s operations yet, the work-life balance was just as terrible as I suspected, and the grandboss was a micromanaging nightmare. It’s, to date, the shortest stint I’ve ever had at a job.
Listen to your intuition; it’s warning you for a reason! If you’re feeling this way about *all* jobs, I’d stop and think about it, but when something feels off, it usually is.
Oof that sounds so stressful!
I do struggle with change sometimes so I’m trying to be reflective on why I don’t feel good about things. But I did go through a couple of hiring processes at the end of last year that I was excited about (but unfortunately didn’t get offers for), so I don’t think it’s entirely a me thing.
I had bad feelings during a job interview. The interviewer (who would be my boss) seemed disorganized, uninterested in me as a candidate, and spent most of the interview talking about himself. He actually said “cool. Whatever.” in response to one of my answers, and asked almost no questions of me. I was offered the job. All of my people instincts were screaming that I didn’t want to work with this guy, but I was desperate to get out of my current role, so I accepted. Worst job I’ve ever had by a mile. I lasted five months.
“He actually said “cool. Whatever.” in response to one of my answers”
LOL! That is so bad. (I too have taken jobs like this. Always a mistake!)
I actually had one that was objectively pretty terrible, but I took the job anyway: When they called to give it to me, they told me the salary was $2k above the posted range and I was thrilled, and then they called me back 2 hours later while I was driving/unable to negotiate and said “whoops, I was wrong actually, it’s $8k lower than I told you.” I took the job anyway because I’d been applying for 5 months after I finished grad school and this was the first offer I’d gotten, but I still feel like there’s *something* I should have done to push back even though I don’t know what it would have been?
You could’ve called back later and tried to negotiate, as you always can, but I don’t think there was anything in particular to do about the fact that they said the wrong number at first. You hadn’t been relying on that information long enough to have made any irrevocable decisions based on it, so all they would’ve done was apologize profusely and not hold it against you if you declined.
I had been unemployed for a year. Got a job offer. After I got, I ugly-sobbed for two hours. It meant: moving across the country, for less money, less prestige, to be a small cog in a giant wheel. (The plus side: I am an expert in, say, the color blue, and they were looking for people with experience in blue-green.)
I accepted the job, made the move. I don’t cry *every single day*, but I am unhappy about my job. It’s very bureaucratic, which doesn’t play to my strengths. The reasons I accepted: I’m old (59), and it’s really rough out there being an old woman in tech; close to retirement; only job offer after a year of looking hard. The things I hate: my new city, my new apt, the job. The reasons I’m glad I took the job: spouse got laid off two weeks after we moved (so one income is much better than no income), and my spouse is really taking advantage of new city – it’s a bigger place, and there’s a lot for him to do. I get through my day looking for occasional glimpses of blue, I enjoy learning how blue goes to teal, and the responsibility of having to support my family.
Thank you for sharing your story.
I took accepted 2 jobs (a couple years apart) where something just felt “off.” I was young and didn’t have a gut to trust. Both jobs were a nightmare for different reasons.
A few years later, I had the same “something’s off” feeling about a job offer. I couldn’t put my finger on it and it paid very well for what it was (maybe that’s a yellow flag), but I turned it down in favor of a different job for less money.
It’s 10 years later and I’m really happy with my career success and I’m sure I wouldn’t have had the same access to a mentor and learning opportunities if I had taken that other job. I agree with earlier posters — sometimes your brain is picking up something that you can’t articulate and in my experience, it’s been worth it to trust that feeling. I’ve even had the reverse – my brain was saying “eh, I don’t know about this” and my gut was screaming at me to jump at the opportunity. The gut was right again.
Had a bad feeling about my current job and was right. Unfortunately I also had a bad feeling about a possible new job recently. I was going to accept anyway, because I figured I’d keep looking while in a hopefully less toxic environment. It wound up being much lower pay and then the position was eliminated due to budget cuts- I probably would have been laid off immediately.
I recommend trusting your gut. I accepted jobs I had apprehensions about due to desperation, and I had massive regrets about it each time. If you can afford to, take more time to find a job you feel good about. Good luck!
I had a remote interview process a few years ago where red flags were a-waving, but all I saw was the salary. In particular, the hiring manager changed her mind repeatedly, sometimes in mid-sentence. Other things felt off, such as during the peer interview, the peer seemed pretty angry and short. I accepted the offer, the waited two months to start because, allegedly, there were issues on the recruiting team (said the hiring manager). A month after I started, I realized that I’d made a horrible mistake.
Trust your gut.
Re: US election.
The work I do has been directly affected by the new US president’s executive orders. This obviously impacts the functioning of my office and how we communicate with the public (spoiler: it’s related to DEI and immigration and we work closely with the federal government). As a result, we have agreed to constantly share updates about the new administration in our shared slack channel so that we’re all informed and can discuss how we will proceed. These new executive orders or statements tend to have negative affects on us and the constituents we work with, so comments on the slack channel tend to be along the lines of, “Omg, look what he’s doing NOW!” with a link. This will lead to a discussion about how to proceed, but it’s often peppered with comments like, “Why does he SAY things like this??” etc.
There is one employee on my team who I’ve noticed does not engage in these conversations. A colleague and I have speculated before that he may have voted for Donald Trump, which of course is his prerogative. Typically I would read this as a sign that he feels uncomfortable talking about politics and doesn’t want to discuss what’s going on, but from a professional standpoint…we can’t NOT talk about politics because it DIRECTLY affects what we do, and it really IS making our jobs harder.
Any thoughts on how to proceed? Part of me feels that it’s appropriate to keep the politics talk out of the chat because an employee shouldn’t feel like he’s being attacked for his views at work, but part of me also feels like it’s kind of unavoidable given the work we do.
I would mentally shift to the task of making sure he gets the information parts out of the threads. TBH, no matter the topic, I didn’t always want to hear my coworkers exacerbations on every topic (work for myself now so miss them though), it was always a five minute stream of ping ping on teams and I’d end up muting some people to concentrate. My guess is that no one is expressing and revolutionary opinion, you all sort of agree, he knows where you stand, so there is nothing really to discuss.
If you want, you can ask “just want to make sure you got the essentials from that thread” to make sure he’s following at all.
Does said employee participate in other slack chats? Or, possibly, they’re so demoralized by what’s happening that they don’t have anything to add?
But also, honestly, if dude voted for the leopards eating faces party, let him deal with the consequences of the leopards eating his face.
True story. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Seriously, I would shut it down. If you don’t have the power to do that yourself, stop using it. If your workplace’s involvement with any level of government includes any amount of funding, all of that slack, everything that any of you write, is legally “discoverable” (meaning, it can be subpoenaed) and subject to FOIA requests. Even if you only liase with government and do not take money, it is very VERY common for extreme-right activists to use such communications to target individuals and gin up moral panics. The whole thing is dangerous.
He may also be unwilling to type things on a work computer, even on the slack channel. Either because he doesn’t want to be the sole voice on the other side, or because he doesn’t want to talk about it either way because it’s too vague and unsettling.
I don’t blame him.
for me it’s a bit of both. the politics impacts your work, so it’s fine if there is *relevant* commentary around it. personally I might try and ask people to include less personal feelings/speculation as accompaniments (for my own sanity I would probably need it to just help me compartmentalize work Vs not work) but, I wouldnt tell people to outright stop it.
he is allowed not to participate and frankly I assume he knows where he works and if he chooses to remain there also knows what to expect too *shrug* (definitely no comments on the lack of participation obviously)
Do you want him to be engaging in these conversations from a problem-solving standpoint? Or are you just noticing that he’s not engaging in the “WTF” aspects? If his silence is making your work harder, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to ask for his input – but do so *only from a work perspective*. If it’s affecting your work, then you can ask him to chip in on the work parts. “Hey Larry – I know you’re working with the Llama-groomers convention. What impacts do you think we’ll see there?”
But don’t ask anything else. You don’t know what he voted, and you shouldn’t. NGL, immersing myself in a Slack full of “WTF why did he do that” sounds like psychological torture right now, and I have tremendous sympathy for you and your coworkers. I would assume he’s trying to avoid doom-spiraling as much as possible and is just trying to focus on his immediate day to day.
What is the purpose of the channel? The orders are vomiting out and at this point have mixed legality and mixed applicability. They need review by legal for your work to implement.
If the channel is for venting vs problem solving… he doesn’t need to engage. Also, consider the impact of magnifying trauma when the outcome is still to be determined. We are in a moment. A bad moment. However, being ramped up and god help me “triggered” is actually what the desired outcome is.
This is a good point, that the object of the flurry of contradicting information is absolutely to create panic and paralyze everyone so they can’t do their jobs.
It sounds like this slack channel is magnifying the panic, you might want to consider shutting it down, after posting some other avenues for appropriate venting (or the resources AAM posted the other day).
Yes I’m not sure but it doesn’t sound like a productive, problem-solving chat but more of a OMG check this out chat. I have my ways of being informed and exposed to the info I need about these developments; I would absolutely opt out of the chat as described because unless you’re planning to DO SOMETHING about the latest news, wallowing in the despair of it is something I personally have no patience for at this point and don’t want to waste my energy on when there’s Work to do.
Frankly, if I were in a position where my livlihood and ability to provide services were being affected by actions taken at the federal level, I would be very careful about expressing any negative opinions. I would suggest that people focus on the affect of the orders and statements and possible or probable results- without adding the personal response. Not only would that minimize potential retribution- it would also be more professional and speak to how to manage the orders and statements.
I try not to get worked up about things I can’t control. Your quiet colleague may be the same.
And as Head Sheep Counter said, there’s a lot of smoke and heat right now and not much light. Much of what’s being said to fire up the base will never be enacted. Less attention and reaction to rumors would be appropriate.
I’m in a field that is currently very affected by executive orders. I need to stay employed/find work so I am keeping my mouth shut.
The slack channel doesn’t sound helpful in a business sense. I’d rethink it.
This type of commentary needs to be shut down. The examples you gave are not talking about politics related to your job – that would be more fact based, here’s the new law / rule, here’s how it affects us, we aren’t sure yet what this means for the X project, etc.
There’s basically a culture here that people need to be performative about their political views … which just sounds like fodder to those who oppose the work you do with DEI and immigration. It is inappropriate for you to speculating with colleagues on who someone voted for. I’ve also noticed that outspoken people of either party tend to be extremely wrong at knowing the politically preferences of anyone who is not as performative as they are.
Your coworker may also just not want to create a document trail like you all do, especially when the president / party in power show a tendency towards retaliation. When I worked in a job that was closely tied to the government, we would *never* have put anything like that in writing. Anytime I’m in any regulated industry, the guidance is “never put in an email or IM something that you wouldn’t want to see on the front page of the Wall Street Journal”
This is spot on. The one thing that I would add is that channels like this get people worked up to the point where they can’t clearly assess the situation, the impacts, and the what a strategic and/or appropriate response should be.
I get it. It’s scary and frightening right now for a lot of people and for a lot of different reasons. Roughly 2/3 of the work we do has been impacted one way or the other, but our senior leadership is really good about cutting through the noise and laying out what’s affected, how it’s affected, and how we’re proceeding.
I agree with this. We are going through frustrating times at my organization and there is a LOT that I “take offline” i.e. I have specific people I text on the side using our personal contact info. I do not write anything in my work channels that I wouldn’t be okay with top leadership seeing.
In OP’s organization, the top boss is the president. I would have an in-person call to discuss written communications in your organization.
I actually worked with someone who asked an outside vendor “Are you sure that’s legal because I wouldn’t look good in an orange jumpsuit”. Turns out what their vendor was doing was not legal and a year or two later my coworker was quoted on the front page of a couple of newspapers.
I don’t blame him for not commenting – sounds like self preservation of sanity. Everything you’re typing is I’m assuming being recorded and can be discoverable. I’d have those kind of discussions by phone or in person. And if you’re using the slack channel to problem solve that’s one thing. But if it’s a bunch of people going OMG OMG OMG to every announcement that sounds understandable but also exhausting.
I would stop speculating on who your colleague voted for, especially with others. That’s his business, and there are a million reasons he might not want to engage in this conversation.
But I have zero sympathy for a theoretical person who does mission driven work related to DEI and immigration, and is made uncomfortable by people reacting to direct attacks on that mission. This is not, like, a debate on government spending where reasonable people can politely disagree, this is a direct and systemic attack on the safety and humanity of the people you work with. Calling hate speech hate speech and calling violence violence is totally reasonable. How else are you supposed to figure out how to respond?
FWIW, if I worked with you, I’d be a silent employee and not cuz I support That Guy. Because my mental health is Not Good because of That Guy, and literally avoiding reading the articles that get into it – or further discussing it – is kinda necessary for me to remain functional. Info I need because it affects my work? Yes, I know it. I make sure I’m aware of it. But I would not want to be especially active in the slack you describe.
Agreed with every comment that says you don’t know this person’s internal life and shouldn’t be judging that based on whether he joins into a chat full of alarming news and strong reactions. Take a beat and repeat to yourself, “I really don’t know.”
I’d step back and ask what your goals are for the organization and how this channel serves them as compared with other mechanisms that are less reactive.
– Are you reinforcing organizational values? “We stand for this” is positive and relevant. “That person holding elected office doesn’t believe in this” is self-evident and not helpful for morale or problem-solving energy you need right now.
If the quiet employee doesn’t share those values, they’re going to find another job and leave. If they do, and you’re assuming they don’t, you’re not supporting their professional growth. Your organization may even be a place where they can learn and grow based on affinity for your work if you don’t drive them out through direct attacks or behaviors arising out of assumptions.
– Are you actually discussing and making plans? That doesn’t take place constructively in an asynchronous chat and you can’t possibly make plans based on reacting to each and every announcement or internet rumor. You need a system in which someone(s) monitor, take in, filter, assess, determine validity, figure out how much you can do that’s new or different and how much you keep doing what you always do. That’s management, not political chatter.
– Are you developing the messages you mention you need? Who’s in charge of your communications and where do they do their best work? I’ve held this job and I’m going to say it’s not going to happen in this chat space, which is a distraction from deep creative thought.
– Are leaders in the organization supporting the well-being and mental health of *all* employees? Doesn’t sound like it’s working for everyone. You’re supposed to think about all employees, not just the ones who think exactly like you.
A final thought, said with empathy in a lifetime of working in or adjacent to politics and public policy: You really can discuss what you need to discuss without injecting political commentary. This “we HAVE to talk politics” really isn’t the case–it’s a choice. Most opinions can be stated as facts. “This decision, if it’s upheld, will affect 90% of our clients.” You don’t have to add “and that’s screamingly horrible” because everyone knows that! Those facts are the kinds of statements that won’t get you in trouble when these records are handed to someone.
I work in a public agency that’s been having repeated cases of whiplash around federal funds for the last week. No way would I subject my whole team to cries of alarm in an unfolding slo-mo mess like what we’re all facing now. My job is to assess, share what’s helpful *for their work* when I have something real to convey (which at times includes “I know you’re reading about this. We don’t have anything solid to share yet and you’ll know as soon as we do.”), make sure they get space to take care of their own needs, take and lead useful actions to continue to carry out our mission, begin making contingency plans for things that are within our control. Most of this isn’t.
How do you want people to put their energy to work? Foster that.
My very large department recently had an all-staff meeting with a terrible icebreaker activity. They gave everyone a sheet with an “emotion wheel” along with other activities like a picture of a body with instructions to circle the places where you “carry your feelings.” We were told to take a few moments to do the activities and identify what emotions we’re experiencing, then discuss our feelings with the table.
I was seated at a table with my direct supervisor and several strangers. That is NOT a setting where I want to talk about something so intimate! Fortunately I wasn’t the only one who felt that way… including the supervisor of a different team who was extremely vocal about how inappropriate it was.
That’s even worse than the sticker chart!
That sounds like something someone doing a parody of icebreakers would come up with
Seriously. There’s just SO MANY punchlines you could come up with for this that this feels like a workplace parody setup for a joke.
-Bob, you should have circled your rear because we all know your head is firmly up your own butt most of the time.
-Did your circle your groin? Well, you know the old joke about how men think with their…
-I circled my feet and right now they’re feeling like they’d want to leave! (walks out)
Etc.
I forgot the most ironic part…
This all came shortly after our routine training on how to handle feelings and request support appropriately at work to avoid trauma-dumping on coworkers.
I carry my feelings in my brain. Since the brain is a very complicated black box, modeled by a combination of an N-port network and a state machine, it’s quite impractical to share my feelings with anyone who can’t do Fourier and Laplace transforms on the fly.
If you can say that with a straight face and a slightly mystified air (that’s where & how everyone carries their emotions, after all), you can get away with a lot. And the thing is, it’s true.
Love that!
I would’ve wanted to be like “I carry my feelings in my mouth, and they are currently that I feel like this is super inappropriate!”
I just said I couldn’t answer because “wanting privacy” was missing from the emotions wheel.
“I carry my feelings in my um, posterior, which is where I’m pulling them out of for this discussion.”
Oh god. That’s a great way to make things very awkward. That sort of activity is slightly therapy flavored and there’s a reason we have trained practitioners do these sort of activities- they know how to hold space and any sort of revelations that might come… whereas work meetings should be less… in depth
My last ice breaker was making a tower of spaghetti or something which while embarrassing let everyone have emotional privacy
I’m near enough retirement that I might have circled the middle fingers of both hands…
Why did I immediately imagine a Pin the Tail on the Donkey scenario?
Whoever came up with this needs more trauma training.
They’re basically asking you to LARP “Inside Out”. Aw hell no.
To preface, I work in a toxic environment and am desperately trying to get out. My manager is “Fergus”. Fergus was out sick last week and most of this week, but he told me that I had to work on an important teapot project. I was working on boxing the teapots and preparing to have them shipped out. The director who is involved in the project said to wait on shipping them out. Fergus found out and told me to ship them- they went back and forth a few times until another higher up said to wait on sending them out.
I tried calling and reaching out to Fergus directly, but he would only talk to “Angela”, another manager in our department. I asked Angela, but she wouldn’t speak to me directly. Big boss is out of the office.
Fergus came back to the office today and kept texting me (and copying Angela on the text) about how I packed the boxes wrong and put the labels on wrong. Basically nothing I did was good enough even though I was following orders from the director on the project.
The bosses/managers here also like to pick targets and go after us about minor things, but Fergus seems to have it out for me the whole time I’ve been working here. Is he trying to sabotage me? Is there a way to ask him to reach out to me directly because Angela doesn’t relay any info back to me. Any advice or similar stories are much appreciated.
There’s no way to know whether he’s trying to sabotage you or whatever else is in his heart. I think in your position I would do the thing he’s doing: text or email, cc Fergus, Director, Big Boss, Angela (because she’s involved for some reason?). “Hi everyone! I’ve been working on Project, and I want to make sure I have the right procedure as I move forward. I understand Project steps to be X, Y, Z. Can you confirm that this is the way to go?”
In a more communicative, less toxic workplace I’d maybe give less confrontational advice, but that doesn’t seem to matter here.
I agree with this. Cc’ing everyone is also a data point in terms of is this just a communication problem or being iced out.
What hotgoss recommends is great. I’d recommend switching to email and save a copy for your records.
Talk to big boss. Clearly managers are not communicating effectively amongst themselves, and that confusion is rolling down hill. That may not solve the problem, but it might be the only step to actually fix the issue. It might be that you need to look elsewhere if big boss doesn’t step in because this sounds impossible.
I’ve sort of managed to navigate this situation so far, but it’s horribly messy and I really want to know how other people would handle it. One of my more senior direct reports has been performing poorly for a while now, and seemed entirely oblivious to the fact that what he was doing was not only well below what’s expected of him, but wildly outside of the norms for workplace expectations (e.g. during one performance review he declared that since he’d hit 50% of target, he was doing great and should get the highest possible rating!)
After some discussion with my boss I prepared a PIP, but before I could initiate it, his close family member passed away. I sat on the PIP and gave him two weeks of bereavement leave. By the time he came back, the review period was overdue. So I called him into a meeting with my boss included, and it did not go well at all. I tried to be as gentle as possible given his family tragedy, and he responded by trying to completely deflect the discussion (I explained one of the recent major issues with his performance, he went in circles insisting that he hadn’t done something which had not been brought up at all, and my boss had to intervene.)
After the meeting, he said he wasn’t feeling well, so I gave him the rest of the day off, and the next day as well. And then he came back and requested three months’ extension on the 30-day PIP, saying he was overwhelmed by the passing of his family member. I was absolutely flabbergasted. Every objective listed in the PIP was something he should have been able to complete within the time frame, even if he took every other day off for his mental health (and I was actually prepared to give him that off time if he’d requested it.)
Sure enough, it’s been less than two weeks and he’s well on the way to meeting all the objectives. But I just don’t think I can work with this person any more. Looking back at his behaviour over the last year and a half, I’ve come to realize that he flat out doesn’t respect his team members, me as a manager, the targets he’s supposed to be working towards, or the broader business objectives that he’s supposed to be supporting. And I’m not talking about ‘respect’ the way people use it to demand subservience from others, but something as simple as respecting that your team members actually have the skills to know what they’re doing, or that you actually need to follow team processes! Even my boss remarked on it. It feels horrible given his recent loss, but at this point I can only see things ending one way.
What would you guys do? Was there anything I could have done differently?
It sounds like you’ve been fair and thoughtful. I’d encourage you to be similarly thoughtful going forward. Not solely in how you treat this employee. But also in how you view his work and his contributions to the team. If he hits the targets on his PIP, that doesn’t give him the opportunity to backslide and not continue to work well and hit targets. So as you’re looking at this performance going forward, be thoughtful about his work outside of hitting specific target metrics. And as you provide evaluations, speak to attitude, the need to follow processes, work with coworkers effectively, and the broader objectives.
It might mean that it takes a little more time to send him on his way, but if you can observe and evaluate beyond just target numbers, you can show him that work is more than that too when you’re on a team.
Thank you for this. What you said is completely on point, and unfortunately not in a good way. I’m actually sitting here in a state of sleepless frustration because just today another team member (who doesn’t know about the PIP) reported to me that PIPperson has been yet again ignoring a very basic team process, one that’s supposed to help other team members avoid duplicate work and that everyone else has been following for literally years. What I now see is that he clearly has no problem with achieving metrics when given an ultimatum, but everything else about the way he works with other people is just so lacking in care.
I would like to help him improve. But I don’t know if I have the stamina to keep trying to uplift someone who apparently thinks teamwork doesn’t apply to him.
It sounds like you are handling this well. Without knowing more specifics, I don’t know if there’s anything I would change. For example, could you have given feedback in a better way/time? I don’t know, and it’s worth checking in with your boss/a mentor that you can be more specific with. Sometimes there are things that we can do better, but sometimes we did everything right and it’s just an unfortunate situation. But from what you describe here, I’m not seeing anything I would do differently.
For next steps- talk to your boss about the possibility of backsliding after the PIP wraps up. It’s very, very likely that this person will do just enough to pass the PIP, then quickly slip back into old ways. If they do, you want to be able to quickly terminate them without having to go through a PIP again.
If/when they pass the PIP, make sure you are clear that these changes are to be sustained, and failure to sustain them could lead to termination. Talk to your boss/HR to make sure that you have your wording right and that this is documented somewhere.
You’ll also want to be clear that the PIP was not the End Of Performance Expectations- this was to get them back to baseline, and you expect to see continued improvement to get them to the expectation of [metric]. Talk with your boss about what kind of metric you can set for this person and when you want to see it achieved by. This could be an annual goal, and you set a 6-month check in for it. This way, even if they don’t backslide, you have a built in point where you can say “look, you aren’t performing up to the way we expect. I was clear after the PIP that you needed to get to X point, and that isn’t happening, so here’s your severance.” Again- make sure your boss and HR are on board. Cross the t’s and dot the i’s with the documentation.
Good luck!
Thank you for this. You’re right – I need to dig into how I give feedback and be mindful that I’m not softening the message. I do suspect this has been the case, because the organization I work for has been going through a difficult transition and I’ve been trying to acknowledge the impact on my team.
The next steps you’ve suggested are very helpful. I’ll definitely sit down with my boss and HR within the next week.
If I were you, I’d dig a little to figure out where his ideas came from. We know he overreacts, but the ideas he has came from somewhere.
The 50% is good enough thing – maybe he’s around people who are phoning it in or delegating the difficult parts of their job without you realizing, so he legitimately thinks that 50% is 100%?
Thanks for this. You have a good point about his attitude coming from somewhere. I mentioned in a reply above that my organization has been through a difficult transition – part of that was (still is) rectifying a massively inadequate performance management system. Thinking about it, this person has probably benefited very much from the sub-par evaluation methods in the past, and is very likely stuck in a rut of not wanting to adapt to stricter standards. And now I’ve inherited the problem.
I’m dealing with some similar stuff right now. I know the guy just got a concerning diagnosis. But he was a crap employee long before that (niche role, “nobody else knows the topic” kind of thing, and a coworker whose job impacts mine). I’m just out of patience with the whole situation.
It sounds like you handled everything appropriately. Just view it as the stall tactic it is and do what you need to do to get him gone. From your team, at least.
An attack of gumption (gumptionitis?) was recently directed at me, and I am wondering if I handled it correctly. I work for Non-Profit A, which is affiliated with For-Profit B. I know people who work for B, of course, but our jobs very seldom involve each other.
Earlier this week, I received a gumption email from someone who had applied for a job at For-Profit B. I’m not sure why, out of all the people at Non-Profit A, she contacted me, but she did, saying that she had applied for this position (it was the first I’d heard of this particular job), and adding, “I am contacting you in hopes that I can learn more about you and your position, and to get insight on ways to stand out as an applicant. Is there a day this week that we could chat over the phone for 15 minutes?”
Of course that would be somewhat icky even if I had any connection with the job posting, which I do not – there’s a gimmicky, overeager, “pay attention to ME! to ME!” quality that is not attractive. She’s obviously trying to circumvent the hiring process, at least a bit, and that’s not good. Total gumption. If this job had anything to do with me, I would try to overlook this misstep, taking it as a sign of inexperience. But since it doesn’t have anything to do with me, I just wrote back and basically explained that I worked for the non-profit rather than the for-profit, she probably knows more about the job than I do, and that I couldn’t help her.
Problem solved…except that she wrote *again* asking for the names and email addresses of the people she should be contacting – so yet another layer of gumption. I just told her no, and let it go at that. But that second email left an even worse impression than the first one did.
My question is, should I have told the people involved in hiring for this position about this little exchange? I do know at least one of them. I decided not to, even though it left a bad taste in my mouth and would have left me disinclined to hire this person, if I had any say. But it just seemed kind of mean to tattle on her, so I didn’t. What do you guys think? If you were hiring, would you want to know that one of your potential hires was prone to misdirected gumption?
I actually don’t think this is overdoing the gumption enough to warrant flagging it to anyone. The second email “so who should I talk to” is right up to the line for me. But she didn’t ping you over and over again, she didn’t try to contact you through multiple channels.
If it turns out that she spammed everybody she could find with the same email, then yes, too much and you can say something.
I think you did the right thing. In my opinion things like this are a slight overstep, not anything to get alarmed or upset about. We know how the job market is right now so I give alot of grace when it comes to trying to break through
This. They aren’t reading this column, obviously, but from somewhere they got advice about being proactive to get informational interviews. They just didn’t do it effectively.
I often get that second email “if not you then who?” when my answer to the first one is no, not me. More typically it’s a cold-call sales email. If I respond and say “I don’t buy these services; take me off your contact list” they respond to ask me who in my organization they should contact. I don’t know, I’m not their business development assistant and this isn’t worth my time. I’ve started appending a stock sentence about our contracting process and a link to the page in the first “no”. I’m thinking that future gumption email replies (if you reply at all, which is purely optional) might all need to end “and I can’t be of any further assistance. Good luck.” and then nope out of replying to any more emails from that person.
You did everything perfectly. I share your annoyance, as this could have been me earlier this week too. Just minor detail changes, and I got about 7 messages before the gumptiony person got the point.
I don’t think you need to do anything. If she read as pushy to you, odds are she’ll pull something similar with someone who actually is connected to hiring, and the problem will take care of itself.
I think your response was perfectly appropriate, but I don’t think the applicant did anything particularly offensive here either.
I would be annoyed and flag it to the person I knew, honestly. I wouldn’t make it out to be more than it is, but to me that type of thing implies a type of judgment that would make a candidate less desirable for certain jobs.
Advice on keeping appropriate boundaries / not oversharing at work?
So I’ve been in my first post-uni job for a few months now and I think I’m settling in well. One thing I’m struggling with a little bit is I came into this job really determined to uphold all I have learnt of professionalism from AAM and not completely overshare about my life. I tend to be very chatty and often leave conversations feeling like I have said a bit too much about myself, even if it’s nothing overly personal, so I wanted to work on this.
Now I’m here though, everyone is super nice but I’ve noticed it’s a very sharing office culture… maybe a bit more than I would be comfortable with. Some of it is on a level of people like openly saying when they’re on their period (not too bad to me) or got a bit of an upset stomach (TMI!), others is stuff like I know about the mental health struggles of a few people, that someone has started new meds, that someone had a certain medical condition last year, and some is quite personal like a coworker is an SA survivor or some details about difficult family relationships. To be clear, all this info is shared by the person themself, not like it’s gossip from others.
I guess I don’t know because it’s all new to me, but it feels just a bit more than I would expect, and my partner is quite shocked by all this. I’ve been feeling a bit pressured to be equally open, like outright asked if I have any family difficulties, or finding it difficult to avoid saying why I have a hospital appointment. I do like these people but I guess I’m wanting to avoid sharing too much personal stuff partly on principle and partly because if this is out of whack with the normal world, I don’t want to pick up weird habits and not fit in the next place I go.
Also I know it sounds bad, but this really is a minor aspect of a job I’m very happy in! I’m planning on staying at least 2 years and I like everyone I work with, and in general I respect them professionally, I just don’t want to get miscalibrated on this. Any thoughts or advice?
I agree with your assessment that you ended up in a particularly share-y office! I think you can occasionally answer your coworkers’ nosier questions with “I’m kind of a private person,” or “oh, I’d rather not talk about that right now.” And then follow-up those statements with an immediate subject change. For example:
Coworker: “Oh, what’s your doctor’s appointment for?”
You: “I’m private about my medical info. Do you have any plans for the weekend? I’m going to catch up on [whatever TV show you’re watching right now].”
or
Coworker: “What’s your relationship with your family like, Call Me Wheels?”
You: “I spend enough time talking with my family outside of work, I don’t need to talk about them while I’m at work! Have you had a chance to look at the TPS reports yet?”
I think as long as you keep your tone light and make it clear that you like your coworkers as people (by asking about their weekends, sharing on topics you’re ok sharing [pets, TV shows, general weekend plans, etc.]) you can have good relationships with your coworkers and maintain your privacy.
Seconding this- you ended up in a very sharey office. Setting boundaries in a light and airy tone can be very effective.
“Tell me about this very personal thing!”
“Nah, that’s not something I really feel like talking about! Hey, I’ve been meaning to ask you- how about that Subject Change?” Practice saying this until you can say it in a really upbeat way. If you say it with a cheery voice, most people will follow your lead and not treat it as a Big Deal. And always follow with a subject change- that helps you continue the conversation in a positive way without needing to talk about the thing you didn’t want.
Another technique- fill the conversation cannon with ammo that you approve of. I always have something I want to say about my latest book or music or Cute Thing My Cat Did. Bonus points if you have pictures on your phone- I’ve noticed that people respect my talking boundaries more if they know that I could subject them to Did I Show You This Cute Picture Of My Cat? Wait, Let Me Pull It Up. Hmm, Where Was It….
People don’t feel dismissed if they know that you’ll happily chat with them, just not on that personal thing. And if you go up to them and start the conversation on Light Topic, it’s more likely to stay there.
Good luck! You’re going to pick up a lot of great conversational skills navigating this.
I think I would share very innocuous info. And if you’re asked directly by someone fishing for family drama/trauma, I would just breezily say that you’re very lucky that your family has little drama and that you had a lucky happy childhood etc. (Even if it’s not true) and then flip it back on them by asking a question about them.
IMHO you need to fit into this TMI culture without giving info you’re uncomfortable giving. So give the appearance of giving info!
I agree. You don’t have a hospital appointment (which is going to raise questions), you have an appointment which should invite fewer questions. Your family relationship? Normal, boring childhood.
I worked in such an office for a couple years. I dealt with it by sharing anecdotes that were way less personal but still fit the theme of the question.
Like: “Why do you have to go to the hospital?” — “Well, boring stuff, but did I tell you about the time I had to ride the bus for 30 minutes to the hospital with a tea towel around my hand after a kitchen accident?! So weird to ride the bus like that, what would you have done?”
And “How is your relationship with your family?” “My brother is the typical little brother, he once borrowed my bike and rode it into a pond, the water went up to the handlebars. Do you have siblings?”
which sufficiently distracts them, feels like I’ve told them something personal, but for me it feels like a harmless anecdote.
My strategy is often to give them what they want in the vaguest possible way and then keep the conversation moving fast enough that they can’t turn back without being really weird.
“My mom is the worst. How’s your relationship with your family?”
“Oh, you know how families are. It can be tough! It sounds like you’re having a difficult time with yours. What’s your sister doing these days?”
“I have a doctor’s appointment this afternoon.”
“Oh? What for?”
“Just some minor health issues, nothing contagious! I’ll be missing the Candlestick meeting, though, can you send me a recap?”
Wow. Any chance these are people who have known each other a long time? The other option that sticks out to me is that “bring your whole self” to work movement.
If you aren’t comfortable, the key is to be nonchalant when giving a vaguer response than they are looking for. Ideally build in a redirect. They’ll eventually adjust with you and stop looking for more details. If you can pick an aspect of your life to talk a lot about that doesn’t reveal personal stuff, it’ll help. Pets are a good topic because there are always cute stories to share, or your knitting projects is another one that has worked out well. Both sound personal but only reveal your personality, not your health or private info.
Thank you for all the advice everyone :) I think I have heard mostly what I was expecting to, so I feel glad my instincts were on mostly the right track and I will do my best to use the redirects and being vague. And to reiterate again, I am very happy in my job and this stuff doesn’t bother me very much, I just want to make sure I’m building my professional norms right, so nobody needs to have any worry for my situation or anything. For the most part I really enjoy how sociable the office is, so I think it’s a good place for me generally.
How do you stop caring about your job more than your employer, and stop pushing yourself so hard?
this is general advice, but, you can’t just *stop* doing something, you have to replace it with another behavior. Start treating your personal life like it’s important, whatever that means to you. If you have other things you need and want to do and are looking forward to them, work will naturally fall further down the list of priorities.
I have never had it explained that way; as someone who is often too work-focused, this was helpful. Thanks!
1) Invest in something outside of work. You probably have hobbies, but stop thinking of them as hobbies. Find the things you love that resonate with you- these are part of your personality (as you are right now). Define yourself by what you love, not what you get paid to do. This can include groups, quiet time, and people that you love. The more you mentally associate with other things, the less room your brain has to associate with work.
2) Leave work at work. I noticed that when I overly cared about my work, I brought it everywhere with me. I was always thinking about it and talking about it. When I decided to care less, I put a moratorium on how much I could talk about work. 5 minutes per day (outside of working hours). At first it felt weird, since so many of my conversations revolved around work (see Item 1- work had become my primary identity). But after some practice, I got more comfortable talking about other things. And it’s hard to think about work when you are talking about other things.
Tell loved ones that you are doing this- explain that you need to stop thinking about work so much, so if you start talking about work, they have full permission to interrupt you and tell you to stop. It will feel weird for a couple weeks, then will feel so much better.
3) Define success as adherence, not success. When you care about your work, you naturally define ‘doing a good job’ as ‘running a successful program/responding quickly/fixing issues/etc.’. But when management is standing in the way of that, it’s a constant frustration. For me, it really helped to think of it less as “I need to make this do well” and more of “I have a responsibility to due diligence, but my boss is allowed to make bad decisions.” Part of this stems from my history as a teacher- you can warn a child that they are about to make a bad decision and tell them why it is bad, but at the end of the day, the kid is going to decide what they are going to decide. This also applies doubly to adults. You can tell them your expert opinion, but adults are allowed to ignore experts. In this case, you are sort of being paid to do what your boss says, even if your boss says “ignore the experts.”*
*Caveat if actual lives or laws are at stake, you must do what you need to legally and ethically.
4) Casual job search. If you care more than your employer, that’s usually a sign that this isn’t the right place for you long-term. You don’t need to leave right away, but it’s good to start looking around. Apply before you pick up too many bad habits or are spiteful- a spiteful or desperate candidate is not as compelling as a candidate who knows what they want and are willing to look for the right fit.
5) Maybe therapy? Obviously I don’t know you or your exact situation, but sometimes therapy is called for. Especially if you have a history of pushing yourself hard for people who don’t reciprocate, or are having intrusive thoughts of work, have trouble defining your identity outside of work (after a month or two of trying to do it yourself), or just want extra support. This totally depends on your situation, so do what is right for you.
Good luck!
Not OP, but thank you for this. Dealing with a lot of “boss making bad calls” issues right now and it’s hard to not absorb the fallout as a personal failing.
I’m sorry. That really sucks when it happens (been there, done that, gotten the therapy bill for it).
One specific thing that helped me was thinking of it as a sitcom. I cast myself as the ‘straight man’ in the comedy- i.e., I was the one normal person within a cast of zany characters. This helped me not take my work seriously- after all, this was just one big comedy production! I was there to deliver good advice that was promptly ignored, then to shrug and say, “Boss says we’re doing it this way.”
The ability to perspective shift this way has become GOLD. I work with a lot of senior executives. Some of them are lovely, incredible leaders; some of them are true caricatures. My ability to do the work I’m paid for and not take psychic damage from working with these people is a real asset. As a bonus, my attitude helps my poor boss keep her sanity (she’s lovely, and she’s got a tough job, so it’s nice to see her laugh through her stress!)
Yeah, that’s one of the things Alison recommends when dealing with a bad boss and you can’t get out of the situation – pretend you’re in a comedy show. She hasn’t specifically said, but I think “pretend you’re Kermit on the Muppet Show” is a good idea. In my last job when I had a nightmare coworker who was the main reason I left, I pretended I was a third-party observer/anthropologist and was gathering data for my thesis. It was less fun than being Kermit but helped keep my sanity up.
Thanks. Definitely in therapy, and working on literally this kind of perspective shifting. I consider myself lucky that I’m not in a life-or-death field, because it would be so much harder to do cuts to the fourth wall if there was a patient on gurney behind me. :D
Great advice, ferrina! I have had to force #2 on a friend who was always talking about work when we were out enjoying our shared hobby. She works for a school and during the height of COVID was *always* talking about her issues with their policies and how bad it was etc etc etc etc. On multiple walks together with her venting each time for a long time (45 min at least) I would say, wow, that sounds hard, can we talk about something else now? (B/c all her venting didn’t make a bit of difference on what actually happened, she wasn’t in a position to change any of the policies, she was just trying to get her stress out and that was stressing me out a lot).
So maybe, FSU, you could ask your friends and family to help you redirect work talk outside of work?
Honestly? I became a contractor with the express goal of not loving my employer more than they love me (was laid off after 20 years). I know as a contractor that I’m a product. That is a somewhat freeing concept in this goal to value my own interests. I’ve a degree of separation and the mindset is well… more consistent with how employers think anyway.
What this looks like – I suggest initiatives and participate when they are accepted… but when they are not… no big deal. Its not as if I’m looking for advancement. Day to day perhaps I’m not fully utilized. Again… no big deal… I’m paid either way. I need to do enough to keep the customer happy and be engaged enough so that I’m happy but… remembering that I’m paid either way and not here for the long haul (surprise its been years)… keeps me centered.
I was better when I cared more though.
What worked for me was new oppressive leadership making it clear that my skills, experience, knowledge, and decades of sacrifice for this nonprofit were seen as completely worthless. I can’t recommend it, though!
Look around at the rest of your life. Is there anything or anyone you care about? Your time with them is limited, and you never know how limited. If you died tonight, what would you most regret leaving undone?
Remember that work doesn’t love you and institutions don’t feel loyalty.
Go find the song “Cat’s in the Cradle” (by Harry Chapin) on youtube and listen to it as many times as it takes. Even if you don’t have kids, this song has transferable skills.
Practically everything is in how you frame it to yourself. Think of it in positive terms like “I am going to use this as an opportunity to get healthier about my work life balance.”
I am an admin in UK local government social services. I haven’t stopped yet but have reduced how often I do by changing my attitude:
*I can’t control when I receive a task. If it arrives too late to finish same day I’ll finish at my next earliest convenience.
*I go by standard procedures for routine tasks and ask for explicit confirmation of my role for adhoc.
*I am firm about taking all types of time off.
*I remind myself I can only do one thing at once and to take care of myself first. Work is a marathon- it’s no good making myself ill to rush and cram to finish every job.
>>>*I remind myself I can only do one thing at once and to take care of myself first. Work is a marathon- it’s no good making myself ill to rush and cram to finish every job.
Yes. I need to tell myself this. I struggle with perfectionism and the self-imposed need to finish all my tasks right!now!
in addition to what everyone else said – baby steps and practice.
its not going to happen overnight – but like everything else you can get there with time and effort and practice.
Thank you all so much for your comments and advice!
Thanks for asking this question! That was helpful for me, too.
I’m going back to school this year. Any tips for balancing coursework with a full time job with odd hours?
Get a really good planner. List all your course deadlines from the syllabus as soon as you get them. Add your work presentations/deadlines and other important dates. Identify as early as possible when your worst busy weeks will be and anticipate how to make it easier (can some of the work/study get done ahead of time, no mealprep/laundry that week ).
Calendar EVERYTHING. I don’t care if it’s “quiz on Fridays, I can remember quiz on Fridays,” put it on the goldang calendar for every single Friday. And then mind your calendar strictly.
I’m in 6 classes right now. Schedule the heck out of EVERYTHING. Not just homework and quizzes but “I will definitely study on Wednesday, even if the hours are weird, I will find the time.”
Reconcile yourself to not having as much free time to relax. Make sure you still take some time to relax so you don’t burn out.
Really get to know your syllabus.
Really get to know your professor and how they like things done.
Agree, knowing the syllabus and professor style are critical to avoid wasted time. Professor assigns 5 articles to read every week but the test is based off a textbook? Those articles only get skimmed if I’m short on time. Expectation for students to spend several hours participating in an online discussion group but discussion group posts are only worth 10% of your grade? I might skip the entire exercise if I’m also writing a paper that week or have to put in more time on another class.
Seek out information from fellow students about instructor style and expecations ahead of time. Many colleges will share syllabus for upcoming classes (or previously taught classes) ahead of registration opening up. If you do enroll and the instructor expectations don’t align with what you can output during that semester, drop the course immediately and take it again when you’re better positioned to perform at your best.
Haven’t done exactly this but I was pretty disabled during my undergrad while working part time also and so only had really limited time I was well enough to complete my work, and it was quite hard to predict how my health would be. Some of the stuff that helped me was every semester listing out all the days, then making note of all the deadlines, crossing off every day I knew I wouldn’t be able to work, then crossing off 1 day a week for resting. Then I sort of thought about what the minimum amount of work I would be able to manage on even a bad day would be, and made plans for when I would need to start each essay by, and I built in a small amount of buffer where possible to, so then I had a rough plan for each day the rest of the semester to base myself off. Might not all be applicable but I think being really clear and honest with yourself about what time you do have, and also making sure you take care of yourself so you don’t wipe out, is all really important. Good luck!
I ended up going back to school last year to finally finish my bachelor’s. I’ve had to really let go of the perfectionism I had as a fresh-out-of-high-school student fifteen years ago – I get mostly Bs, and that’s fine. I do the work and go to classes, but I also give myself a whole lot more slack than I would if I was only a student. My job comes first, then my health, then school.
I second everyone re: schedules. My calendar is blocked out fully even on the weekends, I schedule EVERYTHING, lol. Homework, work, showers, meals, assignments, free time, etc.
Schedule times for everything. When I was in school I worked full time 6-3 M-F and if I had classes at, say, 5-8 twice a week then 3-5 everyday was study time and possibly 5-8 on non-class days. With odd hours, could you plan times based on when you’d possibly be working and within that time it’s either work, class, or study/homework? So like if you might be scheduled to work between 8 AM and 10 PM, then every day from 8 AM to 10 PM you plan on working or doing schoolwork. Then if you don’t have anything to work on for school you can take a break then.
That’s how I did it but I also like resting on weekends and having a lot of stuff to do on weekdays could be exhausting but mostly kept my weekends free.
Take a real inventory of how you spend your hours currently, and then figure out what you’re going to cut out of your schedule to make time for school. Like, really log every hour of your days for a few weeks and really really look at how you’re spending your time. How much time socializing? Scrolling? Exercising? Commuting? Household chores? And then what is going to be reduced or changed to fit in classes and study time? Because the biggest thing is you can’t do it all. Even if you think you have plenty of free time right now, it’s likely filled with little things that will add up when you don’t have time for them in the future.
Figure out if your budget allows outsourcing of things (grocery delivery, laundry service, cleaning person, etc.) or what other options you have to make things easier for you and take things off your plate. For example, I have a recurring delivery of pet food and supplies and of cleaning supplies, on a schedule that lines up almost exactly with the rate I use them, so I don’t run out, but also don’t have 300 bottles of Windex laying around. When I was recovering from surgery and couldn’t lift anything, I had a pick up laundry service for $1/lb that came to my home and dropped off clean things the next day. I built in 3 coffee shop fancy coffees a week into my budget so I could have a nice treat + had one less thing to remember in the mornings when I was running between classes and work and everything else. If you have kids or a partner, can any of your recurring chores be done by them? Even 5 year olds can be taught to fold and hang laundry and load a dishwasher. Do you have a friend who likes to cook? Would they be willing to do a meal prep swap (both of you cook 1-2 dishes in double portions and then give half to the other—twice the meals for the same amount of work!)?
What are your pain points in your life currently, and how can you make them easier before you start school? Eg I was struggling with laundry and clothes so I spent 3 days really going through my wardrobe and getting rid of things that didn’t easily match or I didn’t like wearing, and then I got duplicates of the things I did like. Now everything in my wardrobe coordinates so getting dressed is way easier and so is laundry. This doesn’t have to be expensive either! I wear a t-shirt and jeans most days, and most of my clothing is thrifted. I just decided to be a lot more intentional with what I got. Maybe cleaning is a sticking point for you so you can figure out a regular schedule to keep things manageable, or find a way to reduce the cleaning you have to do. Maybe you have a long commute and it’s worth seeing if you can take public transport so you can read on the bus, or carpool with someone.
Also, don’t forget to give yourself down time in your schedule! You can’t pack every minute of every day for long periods of time. Add buffer time in. So if you work 6-2, then have class 4-6, don’t expect 2-4 to be studying time, because you have to commute, eat food, move your body around, call your mother, get cat food, etc. That two hour gap is more like 1 hour, or less. I found that giving myself a 15-30 min gap on both sides of a block of time helped keep me actually on schedule and less frantic.
Along with the calendar/ schedule everything so you can plan, figure out class requirements for future semesters. I had a class where you were reading a book a week. As a working adult I got the reading list at the end of the spring semester and read them over the summer. It was much easier to brush up then read 500 pages along with everything else. But it all comes down to scheduling and planning.
No advice, just wanted to say I love your username. :) The Blue Castle is one of my all time favorites.
Summary: I’m a software product manager, are there roles out there that are doing good? And how do I find them?
I’m a software product manager that works on products for bigger companies to provide back to end users. But it’s all things like marketing tech or sales generation or things like that. Which is fine, but in the current state of things in the US, feels completely pointless and hollow. Are there roles out there for product managers that support actual good work and helping people? I don’t necessarily need or want to work for a non-profit, but I’m desperate to work on something that feels like it’s doing actual good in the world.
It’s further complicated by the fact that I’m the only income for myself and household, so can’t really support a pay cut, and I absolutely need to be able to work remotely. But I’m also definitely not at the top salary band for this kind of role, and hopefully an org doing good out here would understand the benefits of remote work for its workers.
IT for a university? IT consultant for non-profits, but work for a consultancy firm rather than work freelance?
I work for an IT team at a university. What I do isn’t necessarily “giving back” but I feel like working for a school (even though it’s higher ed and that has all kinds of flaws and corporate overtones) is more removed from the corporate world. I used to be a DB admin for a non-profit and the pay was abysmal, especially in my high COL area.
check out techjobsforgood dot com
Thank you! I’ll check here.
Speaking as a former nonprofit product manager, the pay is much lower. With a decade of experience I was still making on the very low end of a for-profit PM fresh out of college.
The problem with doing a job where you feel like you are doing good in the world is that it’s often harder to maintain boundaries around work/life balance. After all, what’s your friend’s birthday dinner compared to working on software which will help researchers trying to find new treatments for pediatric brain tumors? It definitely doesn’t have to be that way, but be aware that the nonprofit software mentality can be very different.
I wish you the best, and don’t want to discourage you from nonprofit work, but it really helps to know going in that it’s easier to fall into a burnout trap when you are helping people rather than just making widgets.
Oh for sure! I’m not necessarily looking for non-profit work (mostly because I’m afraid of this), but I’m tired of working on things that big brands use to go get more customers for their generally not necessary products. It’s feeling very hollow at the moment.
does it need to be the specific product or can it just be the industry? obviously now is a terrible time to be looking but I’d try anything in a health-tech, ed-tech, sustainability/clean enery type of role where you are broadly in a field doing good, but not necessarily working on a product to save the world.
depending on where your boundaries lie, you can also find roles doing pockets of good in less exciting/good places. for instance I saw a job today for a company that does tax/accounting software which isn’t the most exciting thing for some, but if you think about making life easier for a small business or person who has to deal with complicated paperwork on the regular, you can still find a fair amount of satisfaction in it if that’s your jam.
Yes this is exactly the kind of thing I mean. Something that directly brings people assistance or enjoyment in some way, instead of selling people more things they don’t need or want.
Question for product managers out there – are there any classes or certifications or anything else you’d recommend to advance my career and/or just be better at it in general?
I kinda fell into product management – I did it as part of my regular job (which was primarily content management and analytics) and then in a re-org a year+ ago got officially made a product manager full time. I enjoy it and think I’m pretty good at it so far, but a strict RTO mandate has me job-hunting, and I’m trying to make myself as attractive a candidate as possible. I’m also trying to just be better at it so I feel like I’m actually good at this and not just literally better than the nothing the team had before.
I’m open to pretty much anything, I just don’t know where to start or what would be worth the time/money/effort.
I came to product management from a weird angle too, and so far in my experience it’s better to be familiar with concepts and strategies than to have any specific certification. So knowing different ways to write acceptance criteria, different prioritization methods, emphasizing ways you can facilitate communications across cross-functional teams, knowing how to select the right success criteria, understanding ways of calculating expected costs and income, developing/finding useful templates for product documentation, that kind of thing. And I think reading blogs, articles, books, and other resources is better for that than paying for a course/certification. There’s a ton of youtube videos of varying value out there to start with that can at least expose you to ideas to look more into. Just go in knowing that the internet is full of folks who think they know more than they do on all kinds of topics.
I started my journey with The Product Manager’s Handbook by Linda Gorchels, but I google tons of things all the time. Product Management in my experience has been more about learning how to structure thoughts and ideas and knowing the right questions to ask and when they should be asked. And that’s something that frameworks are more helpful for than certifications. And if a company wants a specific certification from you, typically it will be listed in their job listing, or they’ll pay for it while you’re working for them.
I am a big fan of some of the blogs and communities out there rather than anything paid for (certainly to begin with). Mind the Product and Product Led Alliance are two that I know are pretty big and have Slack communities associated with them so you can network with others. I think there is definitely an aspect to seeing/hearing from others in the same role that helps you figure out where you are.
Pretty sure both also have free or low-ish priced courses/certifications available but plenty of blogs/primers/etc available to read.
in terms of being an attractive candidate, I do think product management is one of the jobs where you *should* be able to really have metrics to demonstrate your success so hopefully that makes you an easy standout. but I would also say there has in the past been a loooooove of knowing and being able to regurgitate frameworks during interviews so maybe have a few you can pull out if you need?
If you are in IT, ITIL is useful for many roles and includes product mangement. PeopleCert might be a place to start (no affiliation).
I have to give some training to customer service reps on The Art of Delivering Bad News to customers and keeping them happy. Think your application for this training program wasnt approved or you will need to retest to proceed or you don’t qualify for this but…
Anybody have some best practices or tips for handling the uncomfortable customer exchanges?
Maybe, try to find something positive you can include with the Bad News? Like, “you need to retest, but hey, you did great in this area or you got X number of answers right, so it should be easier to focus on what you need to study on” ?
Next steps is definitely a component. Thanks
On the customer side, what I really like is when the rep actually responds to my specific question. If someone is copying and pasting irrelevant info, or reading from a script from which they can’t deviate, it’s really frustrating. I don’t know if there are “individual circumstances” in the exchanges your team will be handling, but if there are, maybe it would help to make clear what autonomy the reps have to deviate from the normal script, or how and when to refer the customer to someone else who does have that autonomy.
The other thing is, to be ready with info about next steps. Not just “your application for this training program wasn’t approved” but also “here’s where you can review the criteria, and here’s info about the next application cycle.” Not only is that potentially useful info, but it also puts the ball in the customer’s court, so they are thinking about how to use the info instead of just feeling upset about the bad news.
The last paragraph, absolutely. Whenever you give bad news, What Comes Next is always always the very first question that pops into the customer’s mind; make sure your customer service reps have the information and knowledge necessary to go into detail about where to go.
Fortunately, they don’t have to use a script. You are right, I hate that. Most of the interactions are unique to that customer and the goal.
For your customer service reps:
Be neutral, straightforward, and use minimal jargon. Give people a path forwards – if you have to say “you will need to retest to proceed”, have on hand the info they need to get their retest started. If possible, have a concrete reason why the bad thing happened – if you can give them the information that “the Llama-shearing module doesn’t include enough information on how to work with extra small Llamas”, that’s a lot more useful for “the Llama-shearing module failed”.
For you/whoever is in charge of the reps:
A plan on what to do if customers become aggressive or abusive. How you are going to backup the reps – if a customer is unhappy, do you pick up the line and tell them that they cannot swear at your call staff? What level of authority do customer reps have in fixing things, and who do they transfer people to? For instance – if a customer rep does not have the information about why the Llama module failed, do they know who to send a customer to?
100%, I make sure CSRs know that do not have to listen to abuse of any type. We can’t pay enough to put up with that. Thanks for the comment.
This is more what not to do: Keep the tone appropriate. A canned “I apologize for your inconvenience” can feel like an insult when the issue is obviously more than an inconvenience.
“Keep them happy” is probably an unrealistic goal here, especially if the reps don’t have anything to offer beyond an apology.
Is it more like “you’ll have to retest, they recommend that you practice parallel parking” or “you’ll have to take the test again, and the next available opening is March 2026”? The first customer might go away satisfied. The second probably won’t, especially if their script includes “is there anything else I can do for you?” after explaining that they can’t actually do anything for the cuxtomer.
It will be more like “you will need to retest after some additional free course work”.
And you are correct HAPPY is too lofty a word, “not swearing and name calling” is probably the goal for most CSRs.
Always acknowledge that the news you’re delivering is not what they want to hear. You’re showing you have been listening to what they want. If you can offer alternatives, do so. If the customer needs to vent a bit, let them, acknowledge their feelings, and (if appropriate), let them know you will relay their concerns and frustrations up the ladder. [Note: this is mostly for things where there could be a problem on your organization’s side and someone could change that: “yeah, I see what you mean about the fact that there’s a deadline being unclear on the website. I’ll let my manager know this is an issue we should look into.”]
I would also emphasize that while they might have to do a certain amount of listening to frustration being vented, they should not have to listen to language that is verbally abusive: name-calling, slurs, swearing, etc., and that if they experience this, they have every right to end the call (if it’s over the phone) or walk away from the person, and that they should let their manager know right away.
Agree. We are an organization that is supposed to help people to help themselves. Everyone is given a next step plan but there is an awful lot of dealing out disappointment when customers don’t succeed at the speed that they would like.
I can hear someone talking about me. I can’t make out the nature of the discussion but they mentioned me by name, role and history so I know I’m the topic. It feels uncool that they are doing this in the office next to mine. I’m trying not to care but it’s hard. On the one hand I honestly don’t like these people, but on the other hand it feels bad to be disliked this much.
In happier news, all 6 of the courses I signed up for are now open. I’m really really enjoying my organizational behavior class. It’s all about the ways in which individuals influence groups and vice versa, and what drives people to do and think the way they do, and how we can use our understanding of that to direct groups in positive directions. It’s also playing neatly into my psychological safety course, which is about how to create initiatives around stress and worker happiness and such.
Sometimes I wish I could be a professional student.
How do you know they’re talking about you because they dislike you? Could it be that they’re talking positively about some work you did?
Your classes sound great, although 6 seems like a big load. Is that all 6 at one time?
Hope you have a nice weekend.
Does anyone here have any advice for silent fidget toys? I WFH and have ADHD and I use mindless fidget toys to keep my hands occupied while reading work materials, but the ones I use make noise (which I think also helps my brain concentrate, weirdly). I’m going to a conference in a few weeks and I think being able to fidget during presentations will be very useful, but of course I don’t want to be making annoying noises.
NB: I don’t want a fidget ring, that’s not really the kind of fidget toy I’m looking for – I think I need something a little bigger and more solid. Also, I have hand and wrist issues and need to not aggravate them (I’m also a musician), so they need to be easy to use and not anything with a lot of resistance. And I wish that doodling was the solution but I am a terrible visual artist and I usually get both bored and annoyed at my drawing skills. Thank you!
I have a squeezy bubble keyring toy that I use as a fidget, it looks like a unicorn with a bubble coming out the bum (it was a present!) It’s silent and not very strong to squeeze but I quite enjoy the sensation of it reflating, maybe something squishy like that might work?
If you want to spend money, I’d heard good things about Fidget Macarons. They’re little leather discs that look like cookies with weak magnets in them so you can slide and flip them around.
If you don’t want to spend money, sew a marble in a nylon mesh tube like those finger trap things.
There’s also a LOT of fidget sliders. I like those personally, because I’m tactile and like the sensation of stuff sliding around. Sort of like the marble in the tube thing. Some are quieter than others.
I got a mini alien from Ikea the other day. It is a tiny stuffy from their toy section, fits in the palm of my hand. There is something about texture difference in the antenna and tail (why a tail I don’t know) that has been really satisfying to keep moving around in my hand. No solid, but works for me.
Also have you looked into crochet? Knitting makes a clicking sound because of the two needles, but crocheting is silent, easy to carry, comes with directions so you don’t have to be a good visual artist and keeps your hands busy in the same as doodling.
I am an avid knitter and a casual crocheter, yes! That’s my go-to fidget but recently I’ve had a hard time paying attention well when knitting (I used to be much better at it) and also it’s a little bit cumbersome at a conference where I’m going to be flitting about from different presentations and I don’t know what the seating will be like. I’m definitely going to bring a sock project too, just in case I find myself in situations where knitting is appropriate. I don’t tend to click when I knit, or if I do it’s so quiet I don’t think anyone else can hear it.
Yes. I have tried a few things, but the best I have come across is a set of “grip strength development” toys I got on Amazon. There are various things made of squeezy or stretchy rubber, so they don’t click or rattle whatsoever, and are easy to put in a pocket or have in your lap. And you can’t break them. I have a band with loops for fingers, an egg-shaped squishy thing and a rubber doughnut with textured bits. Looks a bit like a dog toy, but hey…
Seconding this recommendation. I use a gel hand therapy ball. They come in various levels of softness and you can buy sets with several different types so that you can see which one suits you the best.
I have a number of deeply textured bracelets that have met my need for silent fidget toys. If you’re not a bracelet wearer, perhaps a very textured watch band?
Thanks, all, these are great suggestions and I will be looking into them!
Depending on how you like to fidget, a silicone bead could be a good option. They’re small, completely silent, and you can get ones with different textures and features. Another option, as someone who also is a terrible visual artist who gets annoyed at my lack of skill, is to not try to actually draw anything. I just move my pen/pencil around on the paper without looking at it. That way the movement helps me focus and I don’t get annoyed at my lack of skill.
What about a bubble pop bracelet? It’s like a silent silcone version of bubble wrap – usually they are in shapes but some companies make them as bracelets or wrist straps so you can be more subtle.
I’m one of those people who always has a couple hair ties on my wrist, so that’s my built in fidget toy whereever I go.
My favorite fidget toy is a mobius strip I crocheted out of cotton (if you search “crochet fidget toy” a bunch of tutorials come up). It really works for me because of the texture.
Oooooh, checking Ravelry now for fidget toys, this is a great idea!!!
Have you tried theraputty? I’ve found it actively helpful for the hand and wrist issues and it’ll be nice and substantial.
I also have a nice heavy fountain pen with a nice texture that I find pleasant to fidget with, just kind of twiddling it.
My dad had a worry stone that had belonged to my grandfather. Maybe something like that?
I saw some cute memory foam squish toys that were very satisfying to squeeze and fully silent. You could look for something like that!
The boink!
It is a marble encased in a tube sewn shut on both sides. It is my 100% favorite fidget.
Honorable mention goes for stretchy strings or really anything silicone and squeezable, and those telephone coil circles that can be worn as a bracelet.
I have a really wonderful smooth, flat rock I can turn over and over in my hand or pass from hand to hand. No noise, solid item, easily carried in a pocket, and the surface is satiny and satisfying to touch.
TL;DR: My boss wants to read my brother’s new book on management, but he roasts our company in it.
I work for a company that’s run by out of touch jerks. I am actually slightly less concerned about this after the open thread about that the other day (LOL), but I’d still like input and/or to give y’all a laugh. My partner thinks this is hilarious.
My brother is a C-level executive who is also faculty at a prominent business school. He works in, let’s say, llama grooming. I work in an unrelated industry, let’s say chocolate teapot design. He has authored several textbooks on llama grooming and his new book is still geared to that industry, but is written for all audiences.
My parents have us both and our families over for dinner about once a month, and inevitably, we talk about work. I am a VP mostly because all the VPs kept quitting and I got promoted 6 months ago. I had always known this company was dysfunctional, but since my promotion I have been exposed to so much more crazy stuff than I ever thought possible. I have often asked my brother’s advice because hey, people pay him tens of thousands of dollars for it, so why not. My brother is endlessly amused by my work stories and glad to do some free consulting.
He asked if he could use a couple examples of crazy stuff that I had told him in his book as examples of what not to do, and I told him sure, as long as it is as anonymous as he can make it. I just got an advanced copy of the book, which comes out in the spring. And overall it’s great! But he did use an example from my company that was pretty outrageous (cartoon villain level). While he doesn’t use our company name or industry or anything specific, if you worked at my company and knew the author was my brother, you could probably guess where that example came from.
My boss, who has no background or previous interest in llama grooming, saw my brother’s book on a LinkedIn post and is now interested in reading it when it comes out. He asked me to get him a signed copy. Should I just… pretend I have no idea about any of this? “Brother has worked in his industry for a long time and has seen everything!” This feels like the plot of a bad tv show. It would be funny if it weren’t happening to me.
I will say that while there was no exact same situation in the open thread the other day, it was nice to see that there are a lot of out of touch jerks in other companies. So maybe it’s just obvious to me?
PS. I am job hunting but no luck so far.
Brother has worked in his industry for a long time and has seen everything!
I think this is perfect.
Don’t elaborate, just repeat this as needed.
Yeah, I’d stick with that. If the boss is as out-of-touch as they sound, it’s possible they won’t recognise the company. People often believe that any mistake they make is commonplace.
It’s also possible that even if they do recognise it, they’ll be embarrassed to say anything. Like how do you bring up, “that example of bad management was clearly our company. Did you tell your brother how dreadful this place is?”
like in the book/film “The Help”, with the chocolate cake…
Unless the story from your company is in the first chapter or so, I think you probably have a reasonable chance of getting away with it purely by virtue of your boss not closely reading the whole thing.
This is exactly what I was going to say. In my experience most people don’t read the entire book and often flip through and then talk about it as if they’ve read the whole thing. You’ll probably find that your boss will tell you it’s a great book, really insightful etc. etc. and that’ll be the end of it.
Just forget about him asking you to get a copy. It may just have been office chitchat. But I wouldn’t bring up the book again at work.
I didn’t bring it up – boss saw a LinkedIn post about it. Boss is one of those people who spends a lot of time on there.
The jerks will never see themselves in those stories! I wouldn’t mention anything unless the boss reads it and then comments on it to you. In that case, definitely go with “Brother has worked in his industry for a long time and has seen everything!”
One handy thing about cartoon villains is they often don’t recognized themselves when outside observers present them exactly as they are.
Has your brother written more than one book?
Maybe you could get your boss another book by your brother, signed, instead of the new one. They might not remember the exact title of the book.
My company’s CEO requested a meeting with me (I’m three levels below him) to demo my work and projects. I’ve met him many times both on zoom and in person so I’m not nervous, I do a lot of public speaking (I’m an educator by trade), so this should just be fun. But it’s a big opportunity to get my work out to leadership, which is mostly vaguely aware of all I’ve done.
To make this a question, how has it gone for you when given a shot to Show Your Stuff to skip-level (and in this case, skip-two-level) leadership? What happened after?
The only other time I got this chance was many jobs ago at a poorly paid nonprofit (I work for a well-paying one now) where I got to speak to the board and they ignored me, lol.
I’ve had some great experiences with this kind of thing that have definitely helped with career advancement. Similar to you, I’m a decent public speaker who (I’m told) comes across as confident and knowledgeable.
The fun parts are mostly about recognition – I’ve had some of my high-level connections lead to presentation requests for large audiences, or features in our industry publications. It’s also been a help in the practical sense: I now have a reputation with upper management for being The Expert in my area of specialty, so top execs 4-5 levels up will specifically request my advice or support on cool, often high-visibility projects that would otherwise be beyond my level (I’m in a ‘get promoted by already doing the higher-level work’ kind of field, so that counts as a plus).
My favourite is the time when I was a co-op student who lucked into a key role on a wildly successful first-of-its-kind project. My boss was invited to present at a seminar hosted by our sector’s professional association, and brought me as co-presenter. It went great and we got amazing reviews for our session. 5 years later, I had graduated and was job-hunting. I mentioned the presentation in response to an interview question. The interviewer audibly gasped: “That was you?! I used to work for [association] – that presentation was one of the most popular events we ever had!”
I got the job. (:
That’s awesome. My hope is the brief chance provides me with that boost in prominence. I don’t need a different job or title, just “oh wow, what you’re doing is having more impact on the organization than I realized.”
He knows about it vaguely, and has approved the bonuses I’ve received, but that’s via arguments from my boss to my boss’s boss, who reports to the CEO.
That’s definitely happened for me! It’s brought more attention to the projects I work on as well as to me personally, leading to broader adoption of my best practices and that sort of thing. Sounds like you have a great chance to sell the importance of the stuff you work on as well as boost your personal reputation!
I’d like to give a positive update to a problem I wrote about here: https://www.askamanager.org/2024/11/thanksgiving-free-for-all-november-28-2024.html.
After the affirmation I got, I decided to talk to the coworker who made the unpleasant remark. Here reaction to my explanation that I felt her joke put me in a corner with rather bad people was a repeatet “Oh dear” and an apology. She explaned it was intended as a joke about how overused the term “toxic masulinity” was and that it didn’t alude to my behaviour.
I think it was sincere and accepted.
Our relationship hasn’t cooles and is as friendly as ever.
Nice! That’s really good news. I’m glad it’s over!
excellent! thank you for the update
It sounds like you got the best possible outcome. Yay!
I’m looking for a new job, in a different setting, using transferable skills. I’m kind of picky about the WFH setup and industries where I’m applying. I’m getting interviews (about 20% of the applications,), but no offers so far.
In my head, I know that the reasons it’s slow going are that I am being picky and I am really relying on someone to read the cover letter about transferable skills instead of just skimming the resumes. If I wanted to get a new job doing the same thing with similar working conditions in a different company/geographic area, I’m sure that would go faster. I decided to try and switch industries and it’s going to take some time to do.
But even though I know better logically, I am feeling “you are trapped [in the current industry, if not specifically this employer], and if your managers find out you have been unsuccessfully applying, they will know you are trapped, and they will make the working conditions even less pleasant.”
Which is not a pleasant mindset!
Any advice about reframing my feelings about this? Thanks!
Would perspective taking help? As in, envision yourself as your manager. You see that your employee is trapped. Do you:
a) Go full Evil Dictator (TM) and make things harder for them for the evil lulz?
b) Make sure they continue to have decent-to-good working conditions so their work quality and quantity are maintained while here?
I’m being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but my point is that (unless you know your current managers to be awful) they’re people trying to get the job done like you are, so making working conditions good helps with that effort.
I know you asked about advice on feelings, but I would consider if there’s any way to revise your resume to highlight the transferrable skills, perhaps by including a skills section at the top? I’ve never once seen a cover letter for anyone I’ve interviewed; I assume they exist but they weren’t part of the candidate info sent by HR. Similarly, it’s pretty clear most people who’ve interviewed me never saw my cover letter – and I’ve done both full time employee and short term contractor roles so I’ve been on a ton of interviews.
I have almost never gotten an interview for any position where I had to explain transferrable skills. It’s maybe happened once.
Good luck!
If you want to spend money, I’d heard good things about Fidget Macarons. They’re little leather discs that look like cookies with weak magnets in them so you can slide and flip them around.
If you don’t want to spend money, sew a marble in a nylon mesh tube like those finger trap things.
There’s also a LOT of fidget sliders. I like those personally, because I’m tactile and like the sensation of stuff sliding around. Sort of like the marble in the tube thing. Some are quieter than others.
Ack, nesting fail.
Employees of federally funded nonprofits, how are you doing this week?
Things are pretty bleak where I am. My ED is talking like we might not exist in the future. Liaisons at our funders are not talking to us. We’re canceling/reducing pretty much everything we can in case we need to make payroll stretch for as long as possible. I’m thankful that my ED and Board have historically gone to bat for staff in my organization and I have savings built up, so I’m a lot luckier than lots of folks are.
Just sending solidarity vibes out to other people affected by all this nonsense.
We’re not existentially threatened (at least on a financial level), but our funding is in an area it appears the administration will be giving special scrutiny, so I’m bracing myself to see what kind of compromises we’re going to be expected to make and how far the higher ups are willing to go if it comes to that.
It’s not great. We’re renaming programs, cancelling events that ICE could target, many of our clients are not showing up or responding to calls. Things are happening very quickly. We’re just trying to help and educate people!
It’s been an exhausting week. We’re tentatively okay til early summer (some support from the organization with our grant oversight), but the lack of guidance from anyone above us is not exactly reassuring.
I’ve also been supremely unproductive this week, partially because we’ve spent hours trying to figure out possible implications, and partially because I’m just overwhelmed. We lost a beloved colleague to illness recently, we’re already on a shoestring budget and understaffed, and the population we serve has greater needs than ever. My project director is of the “it’ll all work out in the end” variety, and I’m just not convinced that’s true.
We’re a (2) paid staff + (3) funded VISTA non-profit. We’re expecting AmeriCorps VISTA to be cut such that we won’t be able to bring a new cohort on board in June. So I’m writing a job descriptions for new job position. We’ll outsource some tasks that don’t quite fit this position so as not to make it a ‘all other duties as assigned’ role. We do not receive federal funding.
I’m am exhausted by extension for my peers. I’m sorry I can’t do more.
The vibes are grim. I don’t think we’re in quite as bad of a situation as it sounds like your org is. But the reactionary memo on gender is affecting us (and I’m nonbinary, which most people in the org are not, so it is affecting me on a different level). Nobody really knows what’s going on, including the higher-ups and possibly including our grant managers in the government.
Does anyone else despise OKRs? We’re “putting together” ours right now. They are always such a waste of time because I’ve never been at a company where the goals haven’t shifted at some point in the year, and the OKRs never matter in the long run. Then leadership asks mid and lower level employees to write OKRs, but most of what we focus on comes from the leadership team, so it’s usually such a waste of time.
Like, I just want to do my job lol. The past few years during reviews I’ve started saying some bs, because when I have spoken about areas of interest, none of it comes to fruition.
I’m convinced it’s just another type of buzzword the leadership team throws around to make themselves feel good. Especially since it’s more important to be well-liked by leadership than doing your job.
I have no idea what an OKR is, so…
Okr : objectives and key results?
Lol. My org uses both org-level, team, and individual OKRs. I was very skeptical at first, but they’ve actually been pretty useful in helping everyone align on key priorities. (When my manager asks why I’m not doing something that it suddenly occurred to him I should do, I can point to the OKRs and we can decide together whether *shiny new thing* fits in, or not.)
For us, the key has been revisiting them every few weeks with our team, and with our managers 1:1, to check in on progress and brainstorm how to get past obstacles, and doing a deeper dive 3-4 times per year to update, rearrange, add new ones, etc. They should be living docs, not set once per year. There are some interesting best practice on the OKR website (whatmatters dot com) that could help you!
The implementation is the problem. Like so many workplace issues. I spend lots of time arguing with executives about this.
The idea behind it was to be able to specifically measure success and not have wackado hand wavy goals. Writing the Key Results has helped fine tune and write better Objectives.
Ideally, the annual OKRs are set for the company in coordination with department heads. Then the departments create OKRs for how each department will be part of acheiving specific company key results. They should be specific enough to be achievable but vague enough that you can swap out the “how”
I HATE HATE HATE these. My former workplace tried to implement this. I guess I can see the use case in some kinds of work, but my workplace tried to make *everyone* do these no matter how their job functioned. It was an enormous waste of time we didn’t really have to spare. It was especially annoying because we were looking for problems that fit into the framework easily that we could fix, rather than address things that were important, but difficult to quantify in that way.
I hate OKRs with the heat of a thousand suns. Especially in smaller companies that change on a dime.
They are a complete and total waste of time.
I’m right there with you. My tone deaf leader keeps trying to implement them to no effect instead of addressing the very real issues within the company.
Aaannddd therein lies the crux of the issue!!
I am suffering from bad burnout. I took a ten day trip to the beach, felt better, came back and immediately was back where I started, got a new job offer, took it, and quit. Now I’m in my final two weeks, then I have just one week off, then I start my new job. I would have loved more time but (*gestures at the state of the world*). My question: what would you do in that one week off to really boost its restorative abilities to give yourself the best attitude in your new job? I feel like hanging out on the couch may make me worse. Thoughts?
Break it up into some different things. Give yourself one day to sleep/be lazy. Another day to get stuff done around your home/do errands that you’ve been putting off because you’re burned out. Another day to go somewhere and do something you’ve been wanting to do. A day to spend with friends/family you haven’t seen in awhile. That’s 4 days. I personally would throw in another lazy day at that point, but maybe there’s something else you want to do more of; do that. The last 2 days, spend an hour making sure you’re prepped for your first day at your new job (pick out your clothes, figure out your lunch, whatever you might need to do), and otherwise, treat it as a regular weekend.
Congrats on the new job!
Whatever you end up doing, can you get some souvenirs/ongoing activities that remind you of it? Like, if you go to Vermont, bring home some special maple syrup to have a nice little reminder every so often. If you have a staycation, start a new habit, like going to the public library and “shopping” the new books shelf.
Are there little things you can do around your home that give you “accomplishments” but aren’t a heavy lift? I have a running list of “stuff” I’d like to do. Not big things like replace the shower, but things like the following:
*reorganize your book collection
*go through the boxes of old family photos and set aside some for digitizing
*take a 90 minute walk
I’ll often take a random day off just to get some of these sorts of things done. You’ll feel productive because you got some things done that maybe you’ve put off for awhile, but it isn’t high stakes and something you can probably do with a podcast or reality show on.
Personally for me, I would relax and do some of my hobbies. It is your time to rest and do what you want to do, without worrying about work at all.
Even better, you are starting a new job. It is not like you are unemployed and worried about when your next income is coming. So I would take it as a time to relax and be happy.
And congrats on your new job!
When I was feeling this way, I made a rule for myself: I need to leave the house every single day, no exceptions (unless I’m ill.) Anything counts as long as I go through my front door: taking a walk, getting coffee, going to the movies, grocery shopping, driving around aimlessly listening to an audiobook.
It is shocking and somewhat maddening how much this helped. It didn’t cure me, but I felt like way less of a useless lump.
I’d do a meditation retreat somewhere with lots of trees and no phones or internet, but I’m weird that way.
I don’t have advice on the break but I did go directly from a job where I was completely burned out to a new one with only one day between them. Give yourself grace when you start the new job. Give yourself time to get up and running and know that it’s okay if you aren’t recovered from the burnout. It took me about six months to feel normal again and I still feel like I’m more fragile than before. I did a lot of work on myself to figure what lead to the burnout on my end and how I can prevent it from happening again. Recently, I have noticed some of my problematic behaviors creeping back in (working when sick, trying to push harder instead of resting) and I need to get a handle on those now
Our employee benefits broker just floated the idea of a raffle, where employees who have their annual physical in a given year are eligible for a drawing for a prize. The idea is to reward using the preventative care benefit, helping employees feel taken care of while also increasing the likelihood of early detection of major issues, leading to both healthier employees and lower claims in the long run, which helps control costs come renewal time.
This gives me the ick, but I can’t articulate why. Is it as intrusive and patronizing as it feels? Or am I being oversensitive because everything in our health care system sucks?
It gives me a bit of ick because I think people shouldn’t have to be incentivized to get a physical. But if you can frame it with the idea that you may be able to benefit even more than you already do AND your share of the overall cost may be lower in the future, it could be easier to let it slide.
It gives an ick because it’s not the company’s place to tell people to get their physical. That’s their personal business and the company shouldn’t be getting involved.
It doesn’t give me the idk that much, but I doubt “you might win a prize in a year” will really incentivize people unless the prize is very very big.
Yeah, unless it’s like, $1000+ cash I can’t see this being a big motivator!
I don’t love it, but I wouldn’t spend any time pushing back on it either. It’s a positive only incentive and it’s not one that’s so great it would push people to getting a physical if they weren’t already going to do it, most likely.
I had a really hard time finding a PCP taking new patients when I moved to my new town and when I finally did find one, I had to wait over 6 months for the first appointment. Unless your office is providing free physicals on-site at convenient times with work breaks to go do them, I can see why you don’t love the idea.
My organization gives a gift card if you complete 3 health activities in a year. One is a survey, an the other 2 are chosen from multiple activities, including any regular checkup, eye exam, etc.
It’s fully optional and run by a separate company. I prefer that to a raffle.
The thing that feels icky here is that, in order to enter the raffle, the employee has to tell the company they had a physical. That will feel like personal information to some people, especially if previous bosses pried into medical/health information.
If you want to push back, add that those incentives don’t work very well, as we learned when they rolled out the covid vaccines in 2021. A small incentive for everyone who gets a physical might work better, like a Starbucks or Dunkin gift card.
It is icky. I think I’d be fine if there was a tangible individual benefit – like after your annual physical you get a $25 visa card. But setting up that redemption process feels weird (would you have to get a doctor note?)
Some plans build in an incentive where the plan has lower deductibles / copays if you complete your physical in Q1. While I didn’t mind the concept, I hated the timeline because it became extremely difficult to get appts when everyone needs the same short timespan. Your broker may suggest this next.
I get why it feels patronizing, but also I’ve been surprised to find out how many people I know did not see a doctor for years, usually until someone in their life forced them to get a proper checkup. A shocking number of friends in their thirties majorly improved their health once they started getting annual lab work done – stop smoking, get active, eating better.
When I started my job I felt similarly weird about my company’s incentive (a couple hundred dollars per year, divided over each paycheck) to participate in on-site health screenings they offer once a year. It’s a questionnaire about health habits and a blood draw to test cholesterol, blood sugar, etc., which a nurse then discusses with you. I think you can substitute an appointment at their clinic or with your own doctor. I just kind of… got over it? My colleagues all seem okay with it, and I don’t think I would bother getting screened otherwise. The wellness committee also gives us breakfast on screening day. Evidently, my cooperation can be bought.
Our company gives $1200.00 towards health insurance premiums
It’s ick to me because, for people with chronic or preexisting conditions, an annual physical is really hard to do and functionally useless. When I have had to get one, I could not discuss any of my current health problems or past diagnoses with my doctor, otherwise it would get billed as a diagnostic visit or follow up care. We had to stick to the annual physical script. When you have highly qualified specialists providing you with ongoing treatment, that just feels like a colossal waste of time. So this “perk” assumes people all have the same preventative medical needs when, of course, we don’t.
If an employer wants people to get preventative care, give them PTO to do it, and a health plan that makes it affordable and convenient. Don’t treat them like children at a carnival.
I’m surprised that anything happens at physicals besides a doctor telling me at any weight, that I need to lose weight but not offering a single solution and then blowing off any other questions I have.
Literally have almost never had a helpful physical.
I’ll still go every few years and I like money, so there is that.
I hadn’t been to the doctor for 3 or 4 years and went to a new PCP at my new city. I’d had some bleeding which I had attributed to bad hemorrhoids. Received referral to get a colonoscopy. Found colon cancer. Surgery, chemo, and intermittent FMLA followed.
Also, my insurance company gave out $100 gift card for each person who had their wellness visits.
Does anyone have any advice on this situation? My former manager “Jill” stepped down from people managing and left her office for the new manager. We have an open plan, cubicle situation and Jill now sits in a cube catty corner from me fairly close by. She has an alarm on her phone that goes off sporadically with three fairly loud beeps. It’s very jarring and can be heard even over my headphones/music. Someone visiting my cube once commented on it and Jill rolled out of her cube to state that it’s her daughter’s diabetes monitor alerting her to low blood sugar and that “it will continue to go off until she gets to eat”. And continue to go off it did! Her daughter is in high school and we don’t work anywhere near there. I wouldn’t usually have an issue asking a coworker to turn down or turn off an alarm, but it feels weirder since it’s medical related and for her daughter I guess?
Oof. You should be able to ask her if she can turn down the volume a bit, since it’s loud enough to potentially be heard on calls, etc. If she has the phone right there with her, the volume can be lower and she would still be able to monitor it.
I have a low blood sugar alert and it’s a horrible annoying sound. I can shut it off quickly (and eat) but can’t turn it down (it needs to wake me during the night). It wouldn’t hurt to ask if she can lower hers, though. They are all different.
She might need to do that in the app itself — I don’t know about those, but I do have some apps on my phone where the volume is separate from the phone. For example, I turn my phone volume all the way down at night, but the timer app I use for my coffee still goes off audibly even if I forget to turn it back up.
Oof, the alarm should be on the daughter’s phone… If the daughter’s in high school, she must be at least 13, right? That’s plenty old enough to start being responsible for her own healthcare.
None of that is the OP’s responsibility, though, but it should be possible to lower the volume of the alarm, at least.
Hi everyone, I’m a new manager in a bit of a conundrum.
I’ve got an employee who started in late November. Without giving too much detail, we work in a food service industry, where you’re expected to be in person. The industry is notoriously bad about letting people stay home while sick. Thankfully, our company gives sick leave and tells employees to not come in sick.
The new employee was someone I hired and came recommended by a colleague. She seemed like someone who was very hard on herself, but disciplined, and mentioned she has never missed work before in her past 12 years. This was confirmed by references.
Well, she did get sick, and sick, and sick again. Since November, she has used all her sick leave. I genuinely believe she has been sick. Doctor’s notes, talking to her, etc. I don’t mind that she’s used up her sick leave, however, she is panicked. She feels she is letting everyone down, she’s making a bad impression, and—this is true—she’s missed a lot of training because of her sickness.
I assured her that I am not mad, life happens, and we will have to fast track her training when she gets better.
My senior manager though does not feel the same. He does feel like this is a bad impression. He wants me to track how much sick leave she’s used. He says he doesn’t trust it. And he said even if it is true, we need a worker on the ground, so she might not be a good fit.
Can you fire someone for being out sick? I truly believe that she has been sick. What are you going to do? Show up sick?? As someone who is chronically ill, I might feel more sympathy.
How should I handle this? My senior manager thinks I’m being too soft. I just don’t know where to go. It’s true we do need someone here on the ground, but I think she has potential. But I do suspect either she has something chronic, or we are in sick season and she’s been unlucky.
Help :(
I think you need to manage your senior manager. While someone being that sick in that short period of time is problematic, it is also problematic for her because she’s not being paid. You have documentation that she’s been sick and references that told you she’s never been sick. Plus your company tells people to stay out when they’re sick.
Point out that it is probably better to have someone who is legitimately concerned because this is out of character for herself than to just have someone no-call, no-show. In the longer term, you’re probably going to have a more solid employee with the person who shows the concern about the impact of her absence. And point out that because the business tells people to stay away when they’re sick (good!) it probably opens you up to some bad press, at best, if she’s let go because she’s been sick.
I’m nervous to manage him :/ I’m still new, about 5 months here, and I’m still building rapport. Would it be reasonable to say “I hear where you’re coming from, but this employee has given us doctor’s notes and has sounded sick on the phone. She wants to come back to work. We haven’t received any negative feedback in the time she has been able to come to work. I personally do not think it is agreeable to push her out.” ?
I just feel like he’ll come back with “Well, we need someone to work, so if she can’t work even if it’s for a ‘legit’ reason, she’s sort of useless to us.” But then again, eventually, she won’t be paid for her leave because she’s out of sick leave. Sigh.
I think what you’re suggesting saying is great. And I would probably add, following your last sentence. “Also, the company tells people not to come in when they’re sick, so I’m afraid we’re potentially sending her and others mixed messages.”
He’s presenting the scenario that you will be penalized for being sick too much (by his judgement) so you’ll then be stuck with people who are coming in sick because they fear being fired.
Do you have any sort of contact with your corporate HR? This might be a scenario to run by them, too. They may have better advice and may give your boss some advice on how to handle this approrpriately.
If you trust your colleague I think you need to give your employee the benefit of the doubt. It sounds like she’s been unlucky more than having something chronic. Especially if she has a good track record corrobrated by people you trust.
Your senior manager seems a bit ridiculous. I’m not sure what you do about that.
Hmm, when you say, “Since November, she has used all her sick leave” — how much sick leave did she have? Where I work, someone who started in late November would be given five days to last until the beginning of the next fiscal year in July. It could be pretty easy to need five sick days in two months, I think.
Your senior manager wants you to track how much sick leave she has used — that specific ask doesn’t seem unreasonable. The part about not trusting it — there, I think your senior manager is on shaky ground. You know her better than he does; you talked with the references; you have seen the doctor’s notes. He is implicitly accusing her of lying based on — what, exactly?
The legal question, I have no idea.
The ethical question — firing someone for being sick or having a chronic illness is not IMO the right thing to do. But if you do, I think that the ethical minimum is not to contest UI for the person; I don’t know how that plays into the distinction between firing and laying off.
One more thing — as a food service industry customer, I would love to be able to patronize businesses that provide sick time *and don’t punish workers for using it*. It sounds like your company does the former, but your senior manager is on the fence about the latter.
Good luck, sounds like a difficult situation.
All employees get 14 days of sick leave. She has used all of the days. I think after today, she’ll be doing leave without pay.
My senior manager is generally very skeptical. He’s worked in this industry for a long time and I guess have come across people abusing their time. But generally, I think he’s anxious because we need staff.
Leave without pay is a different ball game than sick leave. As has been brought up on this blog, leave without pay is at the discretion of the employer, because they are hiring someone to work.
I think you need to set a clear endpoint, with your manager, about how much leave without pay the company can and will provide before termination. The company is within its rights to say “none”, and you are appropriate to argue for “some”, but at a certain point the manager is right — abuse is a trust issue, but not being able to work is a job fit issue.
The job is the job and eventually leave without pay become job abandonment. The manager gets to say when, but you can bring that conversation up early (ie now), and nail down the true endpoint.
This sucks, because if you have the sick time, you should be able to use the sick time without getting grief over it, but it’s a new employee, and it’s food service, so I get the issue.
Personally, I’d be straightforward and non-accusatory about it with the employee, and phrase it something like “I’m being asked to double check on your sick time use, simply because it was right after you started, and for several days (or however long.) Could you provide some additional context, and documentation from you doctor covering more of that time, stating explicitly that you were unable to come in to work?” and go from there. Make sure what you hear doesn’t contradict what you’ve already heard. Whatever you gather, put it together as a package, so it will look less piecemeal and more objective, and present it to your manager.
Assuming you’re still satisfied that it’s all fine, tell them something like “I’ve gone back over the sick time and asked for additional documentation, I’m satisfied it was legitimate, and they didn’t exceed their allowable sick time (if true). If it continues to happen of course we’ll have to revisit it, but for now I’d like to chalk it up to bad luck and give employee a chance to move forward.”
It sounds like she did use sick time without getting grief over it, initially. The current grief is she used it all up in a short period, has none left, but is sick again.
Legally you can, but your senior manager sucks.
I am the director of a not for profit community service that has regulatory requirements of how many staff we need on site. Before I took over my organisation had lost money each year for the previous five years and was in danger of closing which would have had a very negative impact on the vulnerable population we serve. Last year we managed to finish the year in surplus, but things are still very tight.
I have one staff member who has taken a lot of sick and personal leave for mostly genuine reasons. However, her frequent absences put enormous strain on the rest of the team and had a significant negative impact on the people who use our service. Legally, I was entitled to start the disciplinary process to address her attendance and reliability with the understanding that the job requires a certain level of physical health and if her absences added up to the equivalent of three months of leave within a twelve month period (they did) that is grounds for dismissal.
So far her attendance has improved and her work is adequate so we’ll see. But I don’t believe it’s fair or ethical to expect any business to support one staff member at the expense of everyone else indefinitely. If someone isn’t healthy enough to fulfil regulatory or operational attendance requirements that’s not the right job for them.
> As someone who is chronically ill, I might feel more sympathy.
That’s probably true but that’s not a bad thing! Empathy is good for society.
I’m leading a group of volunteers and having trouble deciding to fire some of them or to leave myself.
We’re a group of 15 trainers at a small student sports club. We’re all in our twenties so making a lot of beginner mistakes. As a trainer you’re expected to give 1-2 trainings a month, attend the quarterly trainers’ meeting and attend the Train the Trainer meetings twice a year.
There is a couple, say Amy and Bob. They’ve been volunteering for nearly 10 years, been in the club’s board, built our training location etc. The last couple years they’ve become less active. Now as trainers they both barely do 1 training a month and don’t attend meetings. They do train at the club quite a lot, but they want to follow their own plan instead of listening to the trainer. About a year ago we decided to allow this, but if you want to do it, first talk with that evening’s trainer.
They have stopped talking with the trainer before doing their own thing at training. When a trainer speaks to them about it, they argue. Many trainers avoid speaking to them.
Amy signed up to give a training twice in the last 6 months and forgot to go there both times.
We met last Tuesday, Amy and Bob were not there. 10 of us were there (some were on holiday or sick). We decided to stop allowing people to follow their own plan at group training. The club offers free training so they can do their plan there. The other trainers told me about Amy’s attendance issue and I agreed to talk with her about what happened / how to prevent.
This all blew up. Amy sent me a series of angry texts, Bob called three of our trainers. They say they feel socially unsafe because we talked about them behind their back. They want to plan a new meeting to redo this week’s meeting that they didn’t attend.
We’ve never had volunteers act this way before. Normally when they can’t do what’s expected of them anymore, they just leave (maybe after some questions/hints from me). I’ve told them before “If you can’t give trainings and attend meetings anymore, you shouldn’t be a volunteer anymore” but they’ll promise that next month they will give the trainings.
I contacted the social safety ombuds person of the association that our club belongs to, because I don’t know enough about social safety to say what went wrong with Amy and Bob’s feelings of safety.
I told Amy and Bob that they are free to propose a meeting next week to discuss all this.
As the leader of the group I’ll probably chair that meeting. How to do that? Which points should I make?
Their feelings of hurt and anger are real, but the other trainers feel intimidated by them. I don’t know how to make sense of the issue.
” I’ve told them before “If you can’t give trainings and attend meetings anymore, you shouldn’t be a volunteer anymore” but they’ll promise that next month they will give the trainings.”
This is the problem: you’re telling them that it’s up to them, when it should be up to you. Don’t let them schedule a meeting to talk to the rest of the trainers and don’t “redo” meetings just because they missed them. Everyone else who is working as expected shouldn’t have to get tied up in their nonsense.
You need to have a meeting with them specifically and outline your expectations and, more importantly, the consequences. “All our trainers are required to X and you’ve committed to doing X, but despite this you’ve missed the last X meetings, including two that Amy scheduled herself. We can’t move forward like this. I need you to complete your scheduled trainings next month; if you miss those, we will have to remove you from our volunteer pool.” The only reason I recommend giving them one last shot is because a) it doesn’t sound like you’ve been this direct with them about consequences, and b) they’re volunteers and I feel like the tether with volunteers is always a bit longer since they’re not being paid (though maybe it shouldn’t be).
They have a long history with your org, so if there are different volunteers opportunities that might be more their speed, then maybe steer them in that direction.
Don’t have that meeting. Just fire Amy and Bob ASAP. If you keep them, you will lose other volunteers.
It’s not as easy to fire them. We don’t have authority structures — I’m just another volunteer who agreed to do a bit more work than the other volunteers in the group. They have lots of friends and a lot of history with the club. So I might need that meeting to fire them with a majority of the group. They haven’t done anything bad enough that we’d apply the club’s rules for kicking members out. Just a lot of not holding promises and a lot of arguing/disrespect.
You need new rules if ” a lot of not holding promises and a lot of arguing/disrespect.” is insufficient for kicking people out.
Well….you kind of dropped the ball here.
It sounds like you are the head of this group, so I’m going to address it from this angle.
You needed to set a meeting with Amy and Bob separately, and talked to each of them about what was currently going on. Why aren’t they meeting their commitments? What actions are they taking to ensure that they will be meeting the commitment in the future? Decide in advance what will/won’t be acceptable- are you willing to fire them as volunteers? What if they do X- would you be willing to keep them? What about Y?
Don’t set a group meeting- that’s unfair to everyone, and it will likely devolve into an everyone vs. Amy and Bob situation. This is something where you need to address this with Amy and Bob separately (and as individuals- do not do a meeting with Amy+Bob+you. Amy’s issues and Bob’s issues must be treated as separate individuals, because they are separate individuals. Be clear on the power you have/don’t have before you go into that meeting.
If (god forbid) you need to have the group meeting, the agenda should be: How We Make And Honor Decisions. You need to have a process on how you make changes- is it true consensus (100% agreement)? Simple majority? 2/3 majority? If people miss a meeting, how will you count their vote? Do they lose their contention? Have a week to respond?
You also need a process for accountability- what needs to happen if someone doesn’t uphold the commitments that they made to the group? What is an acceptable margin of participation? Think critically about different life scenarios- if someone has a personal emergency, what is fair to both them and the group? (my opinion- they can step away for up to 6 months, but any decisions made in their absence will stand). If someone repeatedly does not uphold the commitment, what is the first step? Next steps? How many steps should there be? Make sure that this process is well-defined, but with flexibilty. For example, if someone misses X commitments in Y months, a subset of the group (define who this subset is) will meet with this person to determine if a) their commitment should be altered to a partial status (including lack of voting power in decision making), b) they need to adhere to the full commitment, or c) they will be parting ways with the group.
I know I dropped the ball. I feel very incapable here. No authority, lots of responsibility (I feel very connected to the volunteer work and the club).
We have always been a very informal group. Not a lot of rules, mostly social ties to keep each other going. It’s easy to ask someone for help, people are enthusiastic and do their best. They have resisted making rules and solidifying commitments because they feel like it’s volunteering not work and we should just get things done together. That worked nicely until Amy and Bob stopped following the (silent) expectations.
How can I talk to them if all they want to talk about is how angry they are about the lack of social safety and people talking behind their backs?
Your meeting agenda sounds doable I think. But it’s true, we shouldn’t pull the whole group into it.
Bob has been calling half of the group already though, so they are into it already.
Oh the drama :( This is an important but painful life lesson to learn- silent expectations are great until they aren’t. Spoken expectations give you something to point back to and clear accountability (note- this doesn’t mean the person will take accountability, but it will be clearer to you and outside parties exactly what the agreement was). Make the rules before you need them, when everyone has clearer heads.
But now that you’re here….
Set the priorities on what you need to happen. It’s very, very unlikely that you are going to get everything you want out of this situation. So figure out what you most want and what you are willing to let go. Do you more value Amy/Bob’s friendship, or the commitment made to the volunteer group? If you had to lose one, which would it be? Get that sorted out in your mind first.
How can I talk to them if all they want to talk about is how angry they are about the lack of social safety and people talking behind their backs?
Be accountable. Apologize that the group made a decision that deeply impacted them at a meeting where they were not at. If Amy or Bob’s name came up at that meeting, acknowledge that that was wrong and not good management. You can also apologize that they felt socially unsafe* and that that wasn’t your intention, and you realize that your intentions were not fulfilled in your actions and you want to rectify that (feel free to use those exact words). Then go into the agenda- “To avoid a situation like this ever happening again, let’s create some specific expectations on how we create and change processes.” Make sure everyone is heard about what they feel is right. Amy and Bob should each be heard, but they cannot speak over people. If the conversation gets heated, call the meeting to a close- “We have a lot of ideas that have been discussed, and I know I need a few days to think on them all. Let’s meet again on X day and continue the conversation then.”
*What is with the “socially unsafe”? Is that just a new jargon for bullying? Be careful certain people about co-opting language- it sounds like Amy and/or Bob are using “socially unsafe” to mean “I don’t like when you ask me to take accountability.” If you actually were complaining about them, that’s not okay and they are right to be mad about that. But if they try to claim that any form of accountability is “socially unsafe”, that’s stonewalling. Just because someone is uncomfortable doesn’t mean that the conversation is bad. Be careful if someone starts claiming that discomfort is the same thing as danger.
Here’s a script if that happens:
Them: I feel unsafe!
You: What would make you feel safe?
Them: [if they give a doable suggestion, try to implement it, even if you feel it is unnecessary or silly. However, there is a chance that they will give an unworkable suggestion, like:]I only feel safe if we never talk about this again!
You: I’m sorry, but we need to be able to talk about this issue if the group is to be productive. Given that these two needs are mutually exclusive, I understand if you need to leave the group to protect your mental sense of safety. I applaud you doing what is right for you.
Will they get mad? Probably. Someone that demands that they never be accountable isn’t looking for a true solution. Their goal is not to be productive, it’s to get people to kowtow to them and their unreasonable demands. Let them have their fit and know that it was inevitable. Some bridges will burn, no matter what you try to do to douse the flames. Let them burn themselves out and put your energy into things that you can make a difference in.
Thank you so much for your advice. I find these things so hard to put into words, but the things you suggest feel really workable to me.
The thing with social safety is that multiple universities in my country were found to still harbor a culture of bullying, sexism, racism, intimidation. People have been fired for it, it has been in national news, all employees had to follow “Active Bystander” training, every institution, organisation and even tiny club has to have a confidential counselor and/or ombudsperson now. So yes, social safety is an umbrella term for bullying and other behavior.
I keep picking apart what I remember of the meeting to find out if we did anything like bullying/gossiping/trashtalking. Amy’s attendance issue: two trainers mentioned that they had had to take over on very short notice (they had expected to join a workout organized by Amy but she didn’t appear) and I said I’d discuss it with her. The solo training during group trainings: we discussed that it’s something that Amy and Bob are very passionate about, and decided to inform them privately before we announced to the rest of the club so that they hopefully would feel better about it. I asked one of the other trainers to deliver that message because Amy sometimes complains that my way of communication works on her nerves, so hopefully it would go better if he did it. That might be gossiping about Amy. I don’t know. It’s all become way too complicated.
The lack of social safety? I call BS, unless there’s something you are leaving out. They are just deflecting attention and trying to cast blame for their own behavior.
Are you also just a volunteer, or do you work there? If you are a volunteer do you actually have the authority to do anything?
I am just a volunteer. I don’t have any authority. Mostly people just listen to me because they are fine with what I propose, so I do lead the group, but if someone goes against it, no idea what to do. I can go to the club’s board: also all volunteers with no authority, and this October we got an all new board so they are terribly inexperienced.
Who is in charge?
I think in theory the board is?
In practice they don’t do much because they’re inexperienced. They tend to follow the advice of the leaders of the different volunteer groups (trainers, activity organisers, terrain maintenance), because these have more experience. Like I’ve been doing this since 2018 so I at least know how to get the day-to-day volunteering done. When I’m out of my depth I have nobody to go to.
Well, it sounds like they’re not going to get any experience unless people start bringing problems to them for them to solve, and this sounds like a great first problem for them to work out. You said you’re the leader of this trainer group elsewhere in this thread, so make a plan for how you think the board should deal with this and present it to them.
I can tell you from similar experiences (I used to manage a volunteer group with attendance requirements) that Bob and Amy know full well they aren’t following the guidelines but they are the kind of people who rely on creating a bunch of drama in the hopes that people will give them want they want in order to get them to stop. So you’re stuck in the unfortunate position of either appeasing them (and probably they’ll keep ignoring the rules and doing whatever they want) or holding the line and telling them that they need to start following the requirements or step down as trainers, which will cause a bunch of drama in the short term while they try to prevent that.
The complication here is that you are also a volunteer and it sounds like you don’t have any authority if Bob and Amy refuse to listen to you. I honestly wouldn’t blame you if you didn’t want to deal with any of this! I was paid to manage my volunteer group and I had a boss who had my back when issues arose and I still got fed up with all the ego management and left after a few years. If this isn’t what you wanted to do with your volunteer time you can walk away, or you can try to find another volunteer who is more up for managing Bob and Amy. But if you stay in charge of the group you are going to have to decide if it’s appeasement or stick to the guidelines.
They are using the language of “safety” as a smoke screen to continue doing what they want. If you have another meeting, they’ll be very good at talking circles around you and anyone else who tries to speak to the real issues. (Why would you “redo” a meeting anyway?) Accept that they will be unhappy/try to start drama/make angry posts on social media, and fire them.
Low stakes question: do you send a thank you note for an internal interview where
the hiring manager is your current boss??
I think I’d handle this the same way you would if they weren’t your current boss. It is a new position, so approach it as you would with a different person.
That makes sense, thank you!
I would. But definitely tailor it for the situation- thank them for the consideration, that you really appreciate the development that boss/company has provided that has been able to make you a candidate for this role (careful on the phrasing- you don’t want it to sound like you assume you’ll get it), and whether or not you get this role, the upside is that you’ll still have a great boss. fwiw, your boss might be worried that if you don’t get the role, you’ll be mad at them. If you can help with that feeling, it can help defuse some tension. (this isn’t true of all bosses, so feel free to disregard if it doesn’t apply to your boss)
Oh, I appreciate these ideas! I’m so used to approaching these from the assumption that the hiring manager doesn’t know me, so these are really helpful suggestions, thank you!
I’ve sent like a modified version. After an interview with the technical team I just sent my manager like a “After our chat yesterday, I wanted to reiterate and affirm my interest in this position. I think wht I’ve been working on in XYZ will translate well to their need for ABC. However this shakes out, thanks for beng willing to consider me for this and supporting my professional development.”
Oof phone typos, sorry
Yes, it seems like a modified version is the way to go! Thank you!
I think the ideas conveyed in a post-interview note are still important to convey in this situation, but doing it written feels awkward and stilted. Is there an opportunity to express the same in a warm in-passing conversation? I suppose this depends on how much face-to-face interaction you regularly have with your boss.
Exactly! We are mostly on the phone or in virtual meetings despite being in the same place, as the majority of the team is remote. I think I’ll have to go with written. At least I did say that at the interview in person, but it would’ve been nice to reiterate face to face.
I started a new job at the beginning of the month/year and it’s been awesome. I’ve spent more time with my boss than I ever did in my previous role where I received a new boss after a 9-month vacancy and she was terrible. My boss has also thanked me multiple times (past new boss never looked at me). I also feel great about my work, what I’m doing, who I work with. While I don’t get paid nearly enough for what I do (in non-profit not surprised), I’m still very content and looking forward to the future.
Hugs to the Fed Workers – this is so crazy.
Okay, I finally thought of an appropriate reason to want an anonymous suggestion box at work: asking facilities to address the $#@$ bathroom stalls in the office. The gaps around the doors are huge! Accidental eye contact happens frequently! Even in peripheral vision you can easily tell who’s using the toilets! I really wish they’d address this but I don’t want to spent political capital being The Toilet Crusader and having to attend planning and follow-up meetings about the bathroom, concerned chats with HR, or whatever else I’d get roped into. I just want someone to go in there and say “wow, yeah, that’s ridiculous” and take care of it. Oh well, a fight for a different year perhaps.
In the meantime, can you and others tape up paper or something that will extend across the gaps?
There’s rubber strips that go along the bottom of doors to help with drafts that might be perfect for this. It’s not terribly expensive and seems somehow more sanitary than paper or tape being stuck to the door (I guess because rubber can be cleaned more than paper?)
Odds are that no one is going to want to rehang the toilet cubicles. I think you’re out of luck until there’s some sort of remodel.
But I’d be so tempted to find some sort of attractive duct tape to create bendy panels to cover at least the hingey side of the door.
Sorry if this is off-topic, but this reminds me of my fifth-grade “persuasive essay” where we were supposed to pick a personal topic we cared about and wanted changed. I wrote about the fact that the girls’ bathroom stalls were less than four feet tall, which offered zero privacy given that all the girls were going through growth spurts. I think I asked for them to add privacy curtains.
My teacher read the first line of the essay and said, “Wait, what??” None of the teachers had any idea that there was an issue until I brought it up.
People cannot fix what they don’t know! Sometimes your answer might be “we don’t have the budget to rehang all the bathroom doors”, but the question is worthy of being asked.
Our stalls had this issue and we just have masking tape (like painters tape width but tan) down the gaps. There’s still the gap on the parts of the door that move but it helps. And it’s easily removable if facilities decides it’s terrible. Just go rogue and put some tape up then deny deny deny if anyone asks if you did it.
Has anyone else seen Bron/Broen Season 3?
WTH was up with Saga’s temporary boss, Linn, letting Saga’s mother into the office and then meeting with her?
And then Linn telling Saga that Saga needs to go to Saga’s father’s funeral? Even after Saga tells Linn that she is estranged from both parents?
Even if Saga weren’t estranged from her parents, her boss should not be meeting with her mom and forcing Saga to attend her father’s funeral.
I’m pretty sure these actions would violate office norms in Sweden and Denmark. Any Scandinavians here with insights about this?
I’m Finnish, so strictly speaking not Scandinavian, but that sort of behavior would certainly violate office norms here.
Argh, so late to the forum today! I am hoping to find someone in HR in Washington State with deep familiarity with PFML, particularly with emergent/backdated cases (not ones where you were able to apply 30 days ahead). Anyone out there before I go splashing details? :D
A friend of mine did this. I don’t have all the details, but I know it took awhile to start getting payments.
I recently learned that a former department member (Jamie, now in a different department) shared some confidential info with someone still in my department (Cersei, that reports to me). I’ve talked with the person on my end, but do I have any responsibility to the other side – tell Jamie’s boss? Tell Jamie they need to be more careful? Suggest to Cersei they feed back to Jamie? Thoughts welcome!
(Do nothing also obviously an option)
I’d flag for Jaime’s boss. Make it clear this is less of a “I need you to discipline Jaime for this” and more of a “you may want to review the policies with him,” but still flag.
This! I would tell Jaime’s boss as more of an FYI thing, in case it was part of a larger issue.
I saw a job posting that based on title and salary is a perfect fit for my next step. Except the job board had no job description, just a link to an online application form. The online application form has no description either, but it does have short-answer questions about why I’m interested in “this opening” and my strengths for “this job”. (It also has a portal to upload files, but no description of what files they want – I assume just a resume?)
So I go to the recruiter’s website. None of their advertised positions have job descriptions, just a link to the same portal. I look at their info for candidates and FAQs, hoping to find some explanation for this weird way of recruiting, but there is none.
So now I’m thinking, this is a scam, right? Well, the prospective employer is not anonymous, so I go to their website. Yes, this position is one of several listed as open on their Careers page. All of the other positions have normal job descriptions. But this one just has a link back to the recruiter’s intake form.
What is going on? Is this as weird as I think it is? What could they possibly hope to gain by soliciting applications without any job description whatsoever?
This seems scammy, definitely.
Except the prospective employer is real, reputable, even prestigious – and they have the same information (or lack thereof) on this position as in all the other places. Which makes it no less weird, but I don’t see anymore how it could be a scam?
If it weren’t for the fact they’re linking back to the recruiter themselves, I’d question whether they actually made the post or it just got picked up by the job search site. Maybe they’re only working with this firm for this particular position, and they’re stuck following their weird rules?
You could reach out and say you’re interested, but you’d like clarification on exactly what materials they need. If they’re not responsive, that’s another vote in favor of just moving on to the next posting.
If you’re sure the website is legit (I wasn’t based on your initial comment, but it sounds like it is based on your follow up), then I’d find some contact info from one of the other postings and email them to let them know the job title was intriguing but unfortunately there’s no job description on both their own website or the recruiter’s website and then see what they say. They may not even realise that the posting went up blank!
I think this is the best option. It’s possible there’s nothing they could do about it (maybe someone high up is insisting they use that recruiter and no one wants to fight their poor process; maybe they have an internal candidate in mind and are doing the bare minimum of external posting to meet some policy). But in the off chance they haven’t realized no job description was posted this is the only real chance you have to get it.
I did take over management of a job posting once (when the person who had managed them for our entire office left right after I opened a position in my department) — and discovered that part of the reason we weren’t getting many applications was that she hadn’t bothered to fix some formatting errors that happened when she loaded the job posting into the job boards we used, making it almost impossible to read. So it does happen that sometimes things don’t get posted the way the hiring manager intends.
It sounds less like a scam and more like someone hit “Submit” too soon on the posting
None of the recruiter’s job postings have descriptions. It definitely appears to be a choice.
How on earth can you decide it would be a “perfect fit” without a job description?
Any other federal workers in the trenches this week? Nothing more specific to say than wow, this sucks. My heart is breaking for everyone impacted by all the services that will be worsesned and critical functions that will go unfilled.
I work at a small company (~10 employees) founded by a married couple. For the last four years, it’s been an awesome place to work. We’re in a highly creative industry and working toward completing a big project.
A few months ago, our co-founders told me privately they are separating. They insist they are remaining friends and work partners, and they intend to keep the company together and complete the project. On the surface, things seem to be going along as normal. But I can feel tension under the surface and they have already started “passing messages” between me. (I was friends with both for a decade before we started working together.)
I don’t know what, if anything, I should be saying to them. I’m worried about the company and my job, but when I say that, they repeat that they’re committed to making this work and the company will be fine. My doubts keep increasing, though, and I’m feeling lost and increasingly depressed at work. Any advice?
Update the resume. You don’t need to start a job search now, but start getting your materials ready in case you need to make a quick exit. Make a contingency plan. Hopefully you never need to use it, but if you need it, you need it.
Set boundaries at work. Have separate conversations with each of them and name the behavior. Do not talk about what the other person has been doing, no matter what. This conversation is purely about you and the person you are talking to.
“Boss, I’ve noticed that you’ve been asking me to pass messages to Other Boss. This only started after you separated. I’m not comfortable continuing to be used to send these messages for you. Going forward, I won’t be able to do that for you.”
Then they get to find another way to handle this.
This is really tough. Good luck!
I’d push back on the messenger stuff to whatever degree you’re comfortable doing so. Maybe even be transparent that it’s making you skeptical regarding their claims everything will be fine, if your relationship is solid enough for that. And can’t hurt to start keeping an eye out for other opportunities, even if it’s just the ones you’d find hard to resist even if everything were going great for now.
This is tricky, and is a tough mix of business and friendship! While normally having a Feelings Talk with your bosses is not the most professional route, I think that’s what’s due here. Captain Awkward has some good scripts on having awkward boundary/friendship/feelings conversations that might help.
I would sit down with each one of them individually and name what you’re seeing (passing messages, feeling tension) and say that as their friend, you want to support and be there for them, and you also want to make sure the business stays afloat, and brainstorm what needs to be done to make that happen. Instead of asking you to pass messages, can they send emails to each other? Do you need standing check-in meetings with each of them to make sure you’re getting all the information you need? Are they going to be adjusting their schedules so they don’t spend as much time together, and what will that look like for you? Do they have clear job duties for each of them so they know everything is being handled as they communicate less? (I’m guessing they lived together and are no longer going to be living together, which means they likely did a lot of shop talk without realizing it around the house, so I’m guessing business communication is going to need some adjusting.)
And then I’d also suggest that you update your resume and maybe start putting out feelers. You don’t need to leave yet, but it could help you feel better to know you have options. Depending on your industry, just setting your LinkedIn to “open for recruitment” could get you a pretty steady flow of inquiries from recruiters. (Not the open to work banner! This setting doesn’t do that.)
Get out if you can. The business probably won’t last. And they plan to be civil but there’s no guarantee this won’t all blow up and create lots more than tension.
Update your resume and start reading job ads to see what else is out there, even if you don’t start putting in applications yet.
I don’t believe there’s anything that you need to prepare yourself for. It will just be a conversation about where things stand with your role. I know you have been anxious to get some clarity and that’s what the plan is.
What do you think about this from hr?
Has anyone here ever been asked to leave a job, and given any notice to wrap up tasks? I ask because when employees leave voluntarily there’s an emphasis on the importance of wrap-up, but how important can the wrapping-up process really be if bosses themselves routinely skip it? Especially for people who aren’t an acute threat: performance issues, layoff, etc. Even if someone just isn’t good enough to stay in the job, shouldn’t you want them to box up what they have done so the next person can take over?
Of course from a strictly self-serving perspective you should give notice so as not to burn bridges: I’m just wondering why, if notice actually helps the company, they choose not to avail themselves of it.
I think it is fairly common, although not always the case of course, that laid-off employees are given some notice. There were a lot of layoffs where I used to work and they always got notice–sometimes months in advance.
If you are firing someone for poor performance, then I think it is more of a “cut your losses” kind of situation. If they are failing in the position, then whatever they would do to wrap up may not be worth it. If they are being fired for behavior issues, having them continue could be a liability (harassment, etc.).
I’m sure there are notice periods for some companies, but I’ve never experienced this. With a big layoff, I think there are WARN Act provisions employers have to follow (not a lawyer). However, everyone it happened to at my workplaces in tech, manufacturing, etc. (me too, but not just me) was always yanked into a meeting and BOOM, that was it.
And not all of them were about performance — sometimes it was just lack of work or restructuring. The manufacturing workplace eliminated my job entirely along with my coworker’s. So finishing up anything would have been pretty useless.
I think they do avail themselves of it sometimes, when they let people resign to save face. The face-saving element means the person is motivated to act like it’s a normal resignation and do the normal notice-period things.
By nature, the only time we know someone’s been fired are the times when they either weren’t offered that option or declined to take it – and in either situation, they’re potentially too upset to be trusted with wrapping things up productively.
(Also, layoffs often come with notice.)
If I’m letting someone go for performance reasons, the wrap up has already happened. While I’ve never laid anyone off, I imagine some work shifting or planning has gone on before the formal layoffs happen.
There is also a lack of trust after someone has lost their job, so a company often finds the cost of losing that hand-off / wrap-up work to be less than what a potential bad actor could do.
As a manger, if I am at the point of firing someone for performance issues, I have been super involved in their day-to-day already. I’m normally not a micromanager, but PIPs really require you to get involved in the minutia. So I have a transition plan in my head already.
For layoffs, with the exception of crazy world events, there is often wrap-up time built in as a role or department becomes less essential.
But honestly, if any of my employees get hit by a bus tomorrow, I will be very sad, but the organization will be fine. Those two weeks are more about facilitating a smooth transition than creating essential documentation. So I want that help from high performers in key roles, or from people in coverage jobs where I need to find substitutes, not from everyone.
If I’m letting someone go for performance reasons, there’s no wrap up because generally the immediate business need is to not have that person affecting the work anymore.
In the case of a layoff, there’s no wrap up because the immediate business need is to cut budget, and in some cases, when the position is eliminated, whatever work that person was doing doesn’t need to be finished because the project is cut too.
Just venting: I got a job rejection that stung some today, even though I am currently already employed. I wasn’t certain I would take the role if it was offered, anyhow, based on pay – it was a very lateral move. I was excited about the company and role and potential newness. I apply for jobs a lot, and this was one of the few interviews I had gotten, and I do think the interview went really well, but I know sometimes there are more than one great candidate and stuff doesn’t work out for whatever reasons. I am bummed because I was getting excited about leaving my current role. That said, I have also been working on getting my PMP certification and the role I did not get has zero to do with that. I would have probably continued on to get the cert then looked for a role using that, anyhow. Also, my husband is a fed worker and while he already works in office and is very likely safe from RIF, it’s still just been a bummer of a week, work-news wise, all around.
Waiting to get flamed. I am a practicing CPA. The IRS admits to destroying thousands of documents, because they could not process them. The IRS IG said no bid deal. IRS and Social Security are making it hard if not impossible for people to get in person appointments. No one wants to mail in original documents. I realize government has awful computer systems, but remote work is just not working for many constituents. I realize not true for all federal agencies, BUT constituents are furious with the big 3 (IRS, SSA, VA). Taxpayers want federal employees back in the office.
I am a customs broker and deal with CBP civilian employees all the time. Pre Covid, I could get them on the phone fairly easily. Post Covid, many are working from home, they never pick up the phone, and it can take weeks in some instances to get responses to an email. Many times issues could be resolved with a quick phone call. But even when I leave voice mails, I never get a call OR email in response. It’s so incredibly frustrating and annoying. This is for CBP civilian employees across the US.
No one is going to flame you here. But you are conflating multiple unrelated things together.
First, COVID was not normal remote work time. Second, the IRS has been understaffed and underfunded for ages, predating the pandemic and remote work, and proper staffing was the far bigger issue, not remote work. Third, the lack of funding to create systems that allow effective remote work is not the fault of remote workers, that’s the fault of the government. Digital management of documents has been around for decades, there didn’t have to be a paper backlog. That was a choice to not invest in proper equipment and infrastructure to support the work, not a failure of employees. Fourth, blanket banning all remote work is ridiculous, because many workers literally do not have an office to return to, and many jobs are absolutely fine being done fully remote. It’s a far bigger waste of taxpayer money to force people to come into an office (commute money, wear on roads, paying for more office space, etc) just because, rather than being intentional with what roles should be done in person versus remote or hybrid. Not being able to get appointments with the SSA is not because of remote workers, it’s because they’re understaffed and don’t have the technology in place to do things digitally. I’d rather my tax dollars go to updating systems and equipment and paying people better so they can properly staff offices, instead of forcing butts in seats to stroke my ego. Sixth, the return to office push is strictly to force people to quit their jobs, not to actually help provide better service in any way. The current administration wants to have less people employed, not more, so the issues about wait times and document processing backlogs are going to get worse, not better.
We will have to agree to disagree. Allowing some people to WFH may reduce in person appointments.
I agree that blanket eliminating WFHH does not make sense, but if you wonder why most of the US does not support you, it is because they cannot get service from the BIG 3.
may. so you admit that you don’t know if remote work is the issue.
most is also not accurate. winning an election isn’t a blanket mandate. he also didn’t win by over 50% of the eligible voters in the US. even if that was the case, that doesn’t mean we disregard the thoughts and desires of everyone else.
I’m all for examining operations and determine issues and potential solutions. I want those to be based on facts and measurable metrics. Not assumptions.
I really hope you can take a step back and at least consider that you might be reacting based on preconceived notions and frustration.
The administration has not made any attempt to hide that their goal in RTO is making people quit. Already understaffed getting more understaffed will not improve in-person appointments, even if there are more people physically in an office.
The things you mention people being upset about are not new, and will not be solved by RTO. They’ll be solved by increased staffing and modernized systems, neither of which are going to happen any time soon.
I am a taxpayer and I do not want them back in office for the exact reasons you note. The IRS already has a staffing crunch and mandating in-office work will only create a worse crunch. This strikes me as the same mentality that causes already struggling departments to face cuts with thought that deliberately underfunding them will somehow force “efficiency.”
Have to agree that there are many jobs where working from hone does not work. I never did understand how you could work from home when your job involved information that was not to be shared or even looked at by any one not authorized and in need to the information. Having all those people access government computers from outside seemed like looking for trouble. And there are people like me who also prefer face to face meetings when possible.
Tech security is far more advanced than you realize. I work every day with information that isn’t to be shared with anyone, from my home office.
All the tech security in the world won’t stop a teenager/young adult who lives in the home with the worker shoulder surfing as he walks by, or accidentally overhearing phone conversations with taxpayers etc
I can tell you that when I was working at a CPA firm we were almost totally paperless. There were a few files that got printed for specific reasons but those were rare. We see ALL the private information. SSNs, medical files, routing codes, you name it, we see it and store small bits as needed (redacted as much as possible). On secure servers where you need to get through two layers of passwords.
Do errors happen with digital files? Sure. Do errors happen with paper? Also yes.
I mean, personally, I think that removing $20 billion in IRS funding in the late December budget deal, after already removing $20 billion in IRS funding in the 2023 budget deal, might also be part of the problem.
Anyway, if anyone wants to read the IG’s report (which I would not summarize as “no big deal”), here it is: https://www.tigta.gov/sites/default/files/reports/2023-11/2024406007fr.pdf
Some taxpayers and other people with government business want those in-person appointments, yes. Others of us are grateful for the offer of telephone or video appointments. A lot of people dealing with the Social Security administration, in particular, are either disabled, elderly, or both, and in-person appointments often mean uncomfortable waiting rooms and long walks inside the building.
When I was dealing with a disability appeal, the problem wasn’t remote versus in-office, it was that the office had been understaffed and not hiring since before the pandemic.
Arguing that people at IRS/SSA that work with physical PHI/PII documents need to be in the office makes sense.
Arguing that since there are people at IRS/SSA that work with PHI/PII physical documents, that everyone in those departments needs to be in the office is ridiculous.
Not going to flame you but don’t mistake your opinion that “Taxpayers want federal employees back in the office.” as something taxpayers want. Some do. You don’t speak for all taxpayers.
However by and large issues with the IRS and Social Security and many many many other government offices have absolutely nothing to do with being in office and everything to do with them simply not having enough manpower.
As a government, not federal, employee and a taxpayer, the public by and large has absolutely no idea what our work involves but sure does love telling us we do it all wrong and they have all the answers to do it better.
Taxpayers want federal employees back in the office.
O rly. Are you some sort of eldritch conglomeration of all taxpayers? I don’t care if feds work from the dark side of the moon.
IMO, the “federal workers go back to the office” mandate has nothing to do with availability of appointments at the agencies you name and everything to do with getting a large contingent of them to just leave their jobs. Likely the problems you are complain about will worsen as federal employees do leave their jobs as their employment becomes more fraught.
I work for one of the agencies you mentioned. I currently have zero contact with the public, so no one is making an appointment with me, and I have very little contact with my co-workers on a daily basis. Basically everything is done online, and if there is an issue that needs to be discussed, I can contact co-workers via email, instant messaging, and phone or video calls.
Before Covid, I also teleworked a few days a week, as did most of the people with my job title. It made zero difference with productivity and prevented extra traffic, extra crowding on public transportation, and personal burnout.
Why do you want me back in the office? There is nuance in this issue that you and the current administration seems to be missing.
I don’t understand why you mention the VA. They have pretty good reviews on the healthcare side — I know a lot of happy constituents who go to the big medical center for procedures and their CBOC for minor stuff. What are you bringing up?
Also, given that the folks I know who are happy with the VA are getting the prostates checked in person…. I don’t understand what you’re talking about with RTO. The VA employees I know never left the office. Of course I’m talking about healthcare people, but they do make up like 300k of the VA workforce.
Always interested to hear which part you’re referring to, though!
I posted on the open thread two weeks ago about new overtime rules that were going to be announced. The announcement was delayed a week to last Tuesday and is somewhat better than the original plan (the first 3.5 hours of overtime per week would be “included in the contract”, the next 3.5 hours per week could be taken as PTO, after that overtime would have to be approved by management but could be taken as PTO. Getting paid for overtime is out of the question.)
We are in Germany and – as amoeba said in the comments – this kind of plan is legal as long as it doesn’t get fully out of hand (up to 20 hours of overtime per month can be considered as covered by the contract). A number of us had made other suggestions (for example: overtime is paid beginning at the first hour, but limited to 20 hours per month). My suggestion was to give PTO for overtime for the first 7 hours per weeks at a ratio of 0.5/1 – for 1 hour overtime, a half hour PTO would be granted. It seems management wanted to accept this suggestion but then were informed that it would not be legal. Instead, the new plan is: only the first two hours overtime per week are for the house, the next five can be taken as PTO and beyond that overtime has to be approved in advance.
So I guess it’s a win. It’s better than what they were going to give us. I have enough to do to profit from this system and am already calculating how much earlier than my official retirement date (in a few years) I can leave.
Thanks to everyone who commented two weeks ago.
I work in a cube farm in a small office. Cube walls are about 5ft high. One employee has arthritis in her hands that has started acting up and she is using dictation software. The problem is that she is very loud (almost shouting) and can be heard all over the office. Customers have asked what is going on in the background when I’m on the phone (which is fairly often). Many of the employees have politely asked her to be quieter and she refuses to comply. Management has gotten involved after about half a day of this and she still refuses to comply. She went to HR and is saying we’re discriminating against her disability. HR told us we have to deal with it and won’t address that we’re getting complaints from customers on phone calls about background nose. I wear earbuds all days so I’m good except for phone calls. We don’t have any unoccupied offices for this employee to use so she could work behind a closed door. She was offered WFH and she refused.
Any ideas? Our HR dept already was rather horrid.
Yes she has to be allowed to use the software but there’s no reason she cant be made to do so using a headset.
Alas your best option may be requesting your own noise canceling phone headset with a mic that has background noise suppression.
She *IS* using a headset. Still almost shouting.
that’s terrible. I wonder if there’s something with the settings that can be changed so when she shouts she blasts her own ears.
HR should require her to WFH or in a private office. Actually, the private office seems like the best solution – why can’t they move someone else out of an office and put her in it?
Sorry HR is horrid (although not surprised, in my experience, they usually are). They should be dealing with this, obvs.
There are only two private offices and occupied by big muckety-mucks who are on calls all day long. Them being in the open office would not go over well.
That sounds (hah) so frustrating — the colleague and especially HR. I bet they have offices….
Sometimes I find that my computer changes the microphone input from my headset mic to the webcam mic — I wonder if you are 100% sure that your tech setup is using the most appropriate microphone, instead of a mic that is likely to pick up background noise?
The good news is, since customers are complaining, presumably your manager or someone higher up will have to get HR to be reasonable, so you won’t have to try and do it yourself.
If her disability is arthritis I’m not sure how shouting is a reasonable accommodation. Actually, I’d live to know in what context shouting is ever an accommodation for anything but it’s Friday afternoon and I’m out of cares to give.
HR seems to think that asking her to be quieter somehow voids her accommodation for using the dictation function. That’s all I’ve got.
Reach the place of apathetic peace that comes with realizing this isn’t your problem to fix. HR and management know an employee is shouting at work, causing complaints from employees and customers. They’ve decided they’d rather allow that than deal with it. So be it.
It’s not discrimination if your accommodation is disrupting the entire office. There is no reason to scream at your dictation software. She probably needs to check her sound settings.
Did she get any training when she started using the software? There are things you can control with enunciation and tone to improve accuracy. Screaming is never necessary; a conversational volume is best, especially if you are dictating for extended periods. It sounds like everyone would be happier if she got a little coaching on how dictation software actually works. It’s like vocal ergonomics–you can’t scream all day forever!
As a practical matter, if HR is useless, make sure your manager understands the business impact. They may be able to connect your coworker with some training or support.
Is there a method by which customers can submit complaints about their call? Perhaps you might get some action if you can direct customers who comment on the background noise to submit a complaint about it.
For those in leadership roles of NGOs… which rely on USGov funds …. did you and your leadership teams have any meetings about risks of the current admin once they came to power?
I am an American living and working in Europe in an NGO and am a bit surprised our ‘strategic leadership’ is in a panic and lacks all foresight, for risk management, when all of us project people assumed this was coming and tried to bring it up. But many of my org higher ups did not want to listen. I am aghast.
What did you do to mitigate this shitshow if you needed to?
How do you deal with coworkers who don’t know about your area of expertise in librarianship but insist they know better or that you don’t know enough? One is the director, one is a manager, so they’re above me structurally
Working with faculty- I roll my eyes a lot.
Maybe you don’t know what their experience is.
Some options:
1) Employ phrases like this: “That’s an interesting idea”, or maybe “I’ll look into that”. Then if it ever circles back, tell them why it didn’t/doesn’t work.
2) Loop them in on every project with every detail. Many, many emails with lots of details and, should it look better, one small question. Or just a “keeping you up to date!” kind of thing. Be sure to be explicit about how many outside factors are impacting whatever the project is.
3) Create or point to specific training things that employ lots of jargon and would help emphasize the complexity. For example, the Alma training essentials page at https://knowledge.exlibrisgroup.com/Alma/Training/AlmaEssentials/Alma_Essentials_-_English
Good luck!
Hi! I’m not sure what your area is, but I am a cataloger and definitely relate to this. It’s a tough thing to deal with, even with a lot of communication. Could your manager advocate for you? Or a one-on-one meeting where you can explain your perspective more clearly. I’ve also done a lot of education and outreach, including one-on-one instruction and teaching a one-hour overview session.
Y’all, this is so minor and petty, but how do you manage talking to someone who continually gives yes-or-no answers to either-or questions? She asks to meet at noon, so I ask, ‘my timezone or yours?’ She replies ‘yes.’ She asks me to send her notes on something. I ask if she needs them by a certain time or if I can get them to her after lunch. She replies, ‘thank you!’ I feel like a pest sending follow-up messages but OH MY GOD. WHICH ONE.
Yes, it’s maddening. I dealt with it by following it up confirming my preference.
My time zone or yours? Yes.
Good, then I will send you the link for noon my time zone.
By a certain time or after lunch? thank you.
Great, will get them to you first thing after lunch.
Gives her the opportunity to correct if it’s wrong, but establishes one or the other.
I think this is the way. Also, if you want, you can try asking yes-or-no questions for your preference to start:
Her: “Let’s meet at noon.”
You: “Is that noon my time zone?” (Or her time zone, if that works better for you)
Her: “Yes”
or
Her: “Can you send me the notes ?”
You: “Is after lunch OK?”
Her: “Thank you!”
You: *sends notes after lunch*
Oh do I feel you. Had this situation before.
I think she’s unfixable on this, so stop asking either-or-questions – for whatever reason, she doesn’t have the cognitive bandwidth or attention span to deal with them (go look up “choice paralysis” sometime). Ask yes-or-no questions, or even better, don’t ask questions at all.
Scenario: meet at noon – “Your timezone?”
Scenario: send files – “I will get them to you after lunch”
This drives me nuts when it happens to me, but I’ve found people who do it are going to keep doing it. So once you’ve identified the habit, shift what you’re asking.
Her: Can we meet at 12n?
You: That’s 12n your time, correct?
Her: Send me those notes please
You: Sure – I’ll get them to you after lunch, if that’s okay.
That way, the yes or no answer, or the thank you does answer the question you asked. And if they balk and say “I wanted the notes earlier” you have proof you offered the alternative, just implicitly.
This is how I deal with folks who refuse to offer deadlines, too. I’ll develop a timeline that works best for me and offer it with a “This is the timeline I’m thinking of using. If this needs done sooner or differently, please confirm as such. Otherwise, I’ll assume this works. Thanks!”
And then it’s on them.
This is the way.
I also tend to offer either-or questions, even if I have a strong preference for one of the options – I think it feels more polite, because it shows I’ve considered their situation as well; and if I just state my preference, they’ll have to contradict me to push back (which I don’t like having to do myself).
Then I spoke to someone who hates getting questions like that, because it just makes the conversation take longer when they have to take in 2 options and pick between them, and he finds it patronizing – like they think you need guidance or something. He prefers it when people just say, “I’ll get this to you by X – sound good?” and trust that he’ll speak up if he has to. I found that interesting and it’s shifted my approach a little!
If it was an occasional thing, Anon for This solution would be perfect, but since this is a consistent offender I think Alton Brown’s Evil Twin has the right idea – you know she doesn’t respond effectively to options, so you’ll skip a lot of back-and-forth by just telling instead of asking when you have to deal with her.
My response is usually a pause and “… there were two options”.
Since it is just one person, is there a pattern on whther her yes/no is to the first or second option? If she’s consistent, then you are able to figure it out. Usually their brain has either cut off the question (“are we meeting in my timezone?”) or they are responding to the last thing you said (“your timezone”)
It would probably be easiest to just not give her two options and rephrase. If she asks to meet at noon, respond with “which timezone?”. When she asks for notes, say “I’ll send them over by 2pm if that works for you”.
OMG, I have a coworker who does this and it makes me want to tear my hair out. You ask her a question and you don’t get an answer. It’s beyond annoying.
Love the username for this question.
Honestly, be the pest and follow up. It MIGHT save you from needing to do so if you highlight the two choices by doing them like:
Did you mean noon at:
1) your time (PST), or
2) my time (EST)?
For the notes,
1) do you need them at a certain time?
2) if not, is after lunch OK?
I feel like the visual separation of the choices MAY help in making it clearer you’re asking her to pick one.
Or, instead of giving an option, just offer the answer you actually want and ask her if that works for her: “Is that noon my time? (EST)” “Can I get the notes to you after lunch?” Let her do the work of supplying what she actually wants if it’s not what you’ve chosen.
“I ask if she needs them by a certain time or if I can get them to her after lunch. She replies, ‘thank you!’”
Just ask, “When do you need them?”
The obvious answer is to stop asking her yes/no questions. You’re frustrated because you can’t change her. But you can change the way you ask things.
My spouse is a federal employee. His agency just sent out this email, and I thought I’d share it, since the buyout is such a hot topic of discussion now:
On January 28, 2025, the U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM) sent a government-wide email presenting a deferred resignation offer to federal employees. The email can be viewed at https://www.opm.gov/fork. I am informing you that OPM assures the federal workforce that the offer is valid, lawful, and will be honored. If you accept the deferred resignation offer, you will receive pay and benefits through September 30, 2025, and will not be subject to a reduction-in-force or other premature separation. In the event of a government shutdown or lapse in appropriations, you will be paid through September 30, 2025, just like any other federal employee. Accepting the deferred resignation offer will not impact your entitlement to backpay under the Government Employee Fair Treatment Act of 2019. In addition, subject to rare exceptions, you are not expected to work during the deferred resignation period. Also, in rare cases, you may be able to take a non-government job during the deferred resignation period.
The Department of Justice (Department) will be requesting Voluntary Early Retirement Authority (VERA) authority in conjunction with the OPM Deferred Resignation Program. OPM has indicated that it will grant such requests so eligible employees may receive VERA if they accept the deferred resignation offer. Further, if your full retirement eligibility date falls within the 2025 calendar year, the Department will consider extending your deferred resignation period to the date of your full retirement eligibility.
Thanks for sharing. Do you and your spouse believe them?
Commenter serenity now said all of the emails from OPM were unsigned. Makes me wonder who the “I” in “I am informing you that OPM assures the federal workforce that the offer is valid, lawful, and will be honored” is.
Seconding the thanks to Spouse of a Federal Employee for sharing this email.
“I” is an assistant attorney general at DoJ.
Assistant attorney general at DOJ is more trustworthy-sounding than I would have guessed! I’m glad to see in your other comment that your spouse is not accepting the offer and if it helps them to hear it, I know fed employees do good work and have important jobs! Best of luck to you both during these uncertain times.
One would hope that DOJ would be on top of the legal issues surrounding this but, for all we know, the official who sent that out could have been ordered to send it, KWIM?
One piece of advice my spouse got from an attorney who specializes in employment law for federal employees is that, in the current climate, you have to obey all orders at work, even ones you disagree with, unless doing so would put you in actual physical danger. What a world we live in now.
Spouse is not accepting the offer.
It will take time to know if this is legal, funded, and binding to both sides. Members of Congress are saying that it is not.
Also, even if it *was* legal, funded and currently binding today, there’s no guarantee it would remain so later. Congress could always decide to pass a rule that directly invalidates the offers, pass a new budget deal that explicitly defunds payments to departed employees, or etc.
I also wouldn’t rule out the possibility that the leader in charge just flat out orders his subordinates to ignore the contracts and simply refuse to pay, given that he’s got a long history of doing just that in running his own businesses.
+1. And the other guy screwed over the Twitter employees with the same offer.
Congress controls the purse. This is extremely sketch even if they’re explicitly claiming otherwise. Oh, to have the arrogance of an extremely mediocre white male…
My understanding is these emails are coming from Musk and company through a separate (on his end) email system. It is absolutely not official OPM guidance and they absolutely cannot say that it is legal or that the funding is there.
They are lying because they can. The will continue to do so because there’s thus far no repercussions.
Every email should be treated as suspect.
This is my understanding with the caveat I’m not a fed.
My spouse is a fed and this is her understanding as well.
No, this one came from an Assistant Attorney General, on the DoJ email system.
The Fork in the Road email came from OPM using a system Musk’s team put together to allow OPM to email all federal employees at the same time.
yes they look like they are coming from legit addresses. essentially they’re hacked.
it’s not the heads sending them, it’s basically a pass through.
I wish someone could reply-all with, “Sure, Jan.”
I’m hearing all over social media that this is NOT acceptable procedure. Advice is to contact your union representative.
My default is to assume it’s not being done properly because consider the source.
I’d give those “assurances” all the weight they deserve, i.e. none. The people running this show are lying liars. This sounds like a bait-and-switch plan to get federal employees to resign on their own, before this mess plays out in congress and the courts.
Had my mid-year review this week, and my boss asked if I have any personal aspirations, and I basically said no, in the right way — I said, “right now, I just want to continue doing this job at a high level,” and she was like, “I love that.” And I realized, I would love to hear that from a direct report, too! Like, yay for people growing and improving, but hiring is a huge pain! Love to have someone stay in their role.
I love that response too!
The question about Mrs./Ms. made me remember that I wanted to ask something here. I’m a professor and go by “Professor Smith” or “Dr. Smith” (some profs care which but I don’t). I have a small section in the syllabus about communicating with me; it includes that info. I also mention it on day 1.
A lot of students, even ones not just out of high school (where I assume most of their female teachers used Ms.), address me as Mrs. or Ms. Smith. But that’s only in email. When talking to me ,they don’t use address at all–just “Hi, can you remind me of the due date…” or whatever. In person, I can correct warmly, but over email, my students tend to think all correction is harsh and personal. I’ve had this convo with many of my colleagues, and it’s not something about my emails, but rather a larger issue that seems to have more to do with general communication methods in different groups.
The question is–I’d love a breezy email script for the correction. I’m probably trying to manage my students’ reactions too much…but do others have this issue and any suggestions?
Can you frame this as a “here’s how university etiquette works” (and by extension post-university too) kind of thing? You’re not trying to criticize, you’re trying to educate and help.
I’m scratching my head and trying to remember how I knew as a freshman (cough) years ago to use Dr and Professor, and I’m drawing a blank. Did my parents teach me before hand? Guidance counselor? HS teachers, neighbors, and parents of friends were all Mr/Mrs/Ms Smith and maybe I just picked up from there…
This is helpful, thanks! I don’t remember for myself in college, either. My gut sense is that since we did a lot in person (we had email but rarely used it when you’d just see the prof or classmate around–it was a small college), I heard more people say “Oh, Professor Duck told me…” and just assimilated it. But maybe not!
Unfortunately, at least a few of the e-mails have come from the MyFss mass e-mail address, which is an official one, although even those direct you to reply to the hr@opm.gov ones for actual action. Also, our leadership informed us that taking the deal also means that the position of the resigner will be permanently eliminated if someone takes the resignation deal.
Same here – it’s weird! I honestly can’t remember ever calling them anything but Professor, unless they’d already told us just to use their first names… but I definitely don’t remember ever getting an instruction about it. Maybe it just stuck in my head because that’s how they introduced themselves/wrote their names on the syllabi? I honestly don’t remember using Mr/Mrs/Ms for anyone since my teachers in high school, so I find it interesting how often the question comes up here.
I hope a more recent student shows up with a clearer memory :P
I think my parents told me at some point that professors were Dr So-and-so or Professor So-and-So, and that was reinforced in the first couple days of college.
But then I had a Quaker teacher who wanted to be addressed by her first name (it was a sincerely held religious conviction), and it felt so wrong to me to address a professor so casually. I avoided using her name at all for an entire semester, then the next semester got over myself and called her by her preferred name.
We called everyone “Dr.” unless specifically advised otherwise. Of course, adjuncts were less common then. I think I had all of two instructors who were not full professors. One did indeed have his doctorate, but he was a visiting instructor. And one was a CPA they brought in to teach Accounting classes because it was a liberal arts college without a School of Business.
IMO, no one if going to be offended if you accidentally rank them higher, and they will let you know if they go by Mr. or Ms. or whatever. Full professors with Doctorates are probably going to be a little (or a lot!) offended.
(We were also all brought up using honorifics for our friends’ parents, thought all our bosses were going to be addressed “Mr.” and “Ms.” (and indeed some were!) and were taught to write business letters before email existed. So, unless someone’s parent(s) and teachers before they got to college went over these things, it’s not going to come naturally.)
I think it was just what everybody else in college said?
I did have several teachers in high school with PhDs and we did call them Dr. So I guess I had a head start there. One of them, she was our French teacher but many of the students also knew her husband. He was a local scientist who sometimes helped with our science fair projects – it was a sciency school/community. We did sometimes refer to them as Mr Dr [Lastname] and Mrs Dr [Lastname] in ambiguous situations.
I think if you have it in the syllabus and mention it on Day 1 and they’re not doing it, additional reminders and correction probably aren’t going to fix it. I’m not saying that because you should get over it, just that I don’t think there’s some magical thing you can do to get them to suddenly start addressing correctly. You could announce it at the start of every class and correct every single erroneous email you get and they’d still do it.
I will say, I think being annoyed they don’t address you as Professor/Dr Smith in person when they’re talking to you face-to-face is a bit much. I get the annoyance with Mrs/Ms vs Professor/Dr because that really is about people not respecting your title and accomplishments, but using your name vs not at all isn’t really the same thing, IMO, and it’s seems like a super common way to speak, at least where I live, and especially when the person being addressed is also the person unambiguously in charge.
Oh I agree, I just meant that there’s no opportunity to correct in person.
Same.
One suggestion:
Dear [Name],
Thank you for reaching out, [answers question/ resolves query].
Sincerely,
Dr. Me
(PS: In future, please note the manner in which faculty or other professional contacts request to be addressed – in my case, as Dr. Me. It can be a learning curve, but will have a positive impact your professional relationships]
In email-
Answer the question, then at the end:
Oh, and for next time- my name is actually Dr. AnotherSarah, not Ms. AnotherSarah. Thanks again for reaching out with your question!
Why this works- the correction is sandwiched between two positive things: the hope that they reach out again, and your appreciation that they reached out this time. The exclamation mark serves to put more emphasis on the praise. It’s the written equivalent of “correct, then move the conversation along to the next topic”.
You’re twitchy because they don’t call you anything when they’re talking to you in person? I mean, I went eight years without calling my in-laws anything. (They wanted me to call them mom and dad, and I was not comfortable with that.)
Why is this an issue?
Not the OP but I read it as, AnotherSarah cannot correct them in the moment if they don’t address her incorrectly as Mrs/Ms in person.
I second the suggestions to confirm your title in your email sign-off and draw some attention to it. I had a high school teacher who had a PhD and she was pretty diligent about politely but clearly correcting students if they didn’t use her proper title. I think she was just well over any concern that it would seem nitpicky or harsh to correct them, and now that I have a PhD too, I completely get it.
Exactly—it’s fine if they don’t use my name and title when talking to me but it removes a natural place to correct.
Other people have already given you good scripts for email responses. I think this is also worth addressing in class. I remember at least two of my professors giving us instructions on how to email. One (or more) of my professors gave us pointers on including the course and section number in the subject line (ex. “Chem 101 Section 3 – Homework question” instead of “Homework question”).
One of my professors I remember very clearly telling us to start our emails with “Dear Professor X” or “Hello Professor X” and that starting an email with “Hey” was unprofessional. I think that “refer to your professors as Professor or Dr. in your emails, not as Mr./Ms./Mrs.” is also worth spelling out for the whole class.
Here’s the reason many financial companies mandate people take a minimum of a week-long vacation.
(State of Iowa Auditor Rob Sand) “Sand says the embezzlement was discovered by a person who took over the director’s duties while Spargur-Tate was on vacation and saw an invoice for auto body work on a vehicle for a client that did not have a car.”
An investigation by the state auditor’s office found the leader of a taxpayer-funded program helping Iowans get job training embezzled over $400,000 in a seven-year period.
Here’s a link to the article. https://www.kmaland.com/news/state-auditors-report-finds-iowa-job-training-program-director-embezzled-over-430-000/article_9807fbb0-dfec-11ef-b45e-67acd92de996.html
THIS! Anyone working in a finance role (or purchasing or other related roles) needs to take a minimum of a week off so someone else can do their job. It’s a basic internal control.
LinkedIn Post Advice Needed!
I am in between jobs. While I am applying/interviewing for my next role, I am doing some pretty involved volunteer work. What is the least cringeworthy way y’all have seen people post about what they are working on while still job hunting? I’m not desperate for a job, but in my type of work it helps to be seen and to show skills in the area I am volunteering.
Are there recent accomplishments/projects/whatever you can link to easily? Something like a news release or resource or whatever they’ve done would be great, IMO – something you can share with a caption like, “So proud of the team at ______ for this great [whatever it is] – it’s been such a pleasure to do X, Y and Z!”
Looking for feedback from anyone who might have been in a similar situation.
About a year and a half ago, we created a new position on my team to manage a new client service. We hired a terrific person! He has been very successful in his role.
However, the volume of use of the service has been lower than anticipated, for a few reasons. My boss and I based our projections on similar existing client service initiatives. What we are seeing is that there are fewer requests overall, and the requests that we do have are much more straightforward, and resolved in faster time, than those we routinely see in other areas. Maybe this is because we did a great job designing and communicating the service so that it is easy for clients to use, and also because this staff person is very adept at resolving cases quickly and accurately.
Hypothetically, if this staff person was to resign tomorrow to take an exciting new opportunity, we probably wouldn’t rehire for the position in the same way; we would likely fold the new service into another existing team, and maybe hire a more junior person for that team to support the work.
What we’re doing now is identifying some additional duties to add to our current manager’s portfolio, and trying to be thoughtful about making sure the work is reasonably related to the current job description. For an example, one thing he does currently is onboard new users to the service; we are going to have him take on the onboarding component for another service team that has higher volume to free up those team members to focus on returning users.
We did two things I think are helping this process: throughout the interview stages and the new staff onboarding, we talked a lot about how this was a new position and a new service, and we would be adjusting the expectations and daily responsibilities as we experienced how the new service was being utilized. We’re also working closely with our HR to make sure that any new responsibilities are documented and in keeping with our employment policies.
One thing I wish I had done differently was to put more of this in writing in the initial offer and new employee materials.
I am a little worried that this could be perceived — by this employee, or by other coworkers — as that situation where an employer keeps adding duties without any adjustment of pay or title, as a cost cutting strategy that is unfair to the employee. I feel 100% confident that what I am describing is true: a newly created position ended up having different (lower) needs than anticipated, but I still wonder what the optics are.
So far, my conversations with the employee have been positive, but I would love to hear if anyone was in a similar position — either as the manager , or the person who was receiving new duties. Were there things that helped the communication? Did you feel reluctant about taking on the work? Could anything have been done differently that would have made you more comfortable with the situation?
Do you have any idea how the employee currently views his workload? Does he reach out for more to work on, or say that things are slow? If so, he might be totally fine with this and be happy about it.
If he’s been less clearly eager for more work, I’d probably say, “when you started, we talked about how this position might end up shifting depending on how the new service was utilized. We’ve actually seen a lot less need for your work related to that service than we were expecting. We’ve been really happy with your work, though, and want to make sure that higher-ups with control of the budget can clearly see your value to the company. Because of that, we’re going to be adding X and Y to your plate. The increased responsibilities will make it a lot harder for anyone who might be looking to cut costs to suggest that your position isn’t needed. We’ll ramp it up gradually so you have a chance to figure out how to best balance your new workload.”
Also, remember: worst thing that happens is that he decides he liked having a light and easy job and doesn’t want to stick around. In that case, he leaves and you don’t backfill the position. It’d be a pity, but it’s not the end of the world.
This is great framing, thank you for your comments.
How do you avoid eye strain in jobs that involve looking at monitors all day? I used to get breaks because of in-person meetings but everything is on Zoom now so its just staring at monitors for 10hrs. I’m a software developer and everything we do is digital so there is literally no work that doesn’t involve staring at monitor.
I know there’s a suggestion to look at something 20ft away every 20min – does this need to be text? Can it be looking at door frame? Very few rooms in my apartment are wider than 20ft.
Eyes have been checked, do not need glasses. Blue light lenses don’t really help (actually, looking through lenses hurts? even for non-rx, like safety glasses, seems to be something about the material)
I have also heard of the 20-20-20 rule (look at something at least 20 ft away for 20 seconds every 20 min). I’m not great at following it myself, but I try. As far as I understand, it doesn’t need to be text, just have your eyes focused on something at least 20 ft away. A doorframe would work. If your apartment workstation is near windows, you can also look at something out the window for 20 seconds.
This is the rule that I try to go for. I’ve noticed that I do a lot better when I have my computer against something that allows me to look farther away- when my computer is against a blank wall, when I glance away from my computer I’m looking at a wall 2 ft away. But when my computer is next to a window, when I glance around my eyes are looking at things out the window (20+ feet away)
Looking at a door frame is fine, you just want to focus on something that far away. If the door frame is boring, you can put art on it.
But I’d also suggest standing up and walking around every hour or two, and making a point to focus at a distance during that time.
I always look at whatever is on the wall opposite me. At NewJob, my accommodation desk is by a window, so I can look at the building across the street or look at traffic. I second the suggestion to get up and walk around every hour or so.
I know you said the lenses don’t help but have you tried programs that load onto your computer and change the tone of your monitor? I’ve been using f.lux for years and it’s made a huge difference — in fact at one point my work laptop died and I was using a loaner while waiting for the new one to arrive and couldn’t figure out why I had a terrible headache at the end of every work day, until I realized that of course the loaner didn’t have f.lux on it.
I’d also check the angle/position of your monitors – I actually need mine about two feet away from me to avoid eye strain (which can be tough because a lot of desks are about 22 inches deep — I work from home and currently use a small table as a desk).
Don’t look at text! I mean, I guess you can, but I generally try to look out the window. Trees or the building across the street.
Also check out f.lux. It’s a program that basically adjusts your monitor brightness to match the light levels of your timezone. I find it reeeeeally helpful. I don’t generally like dark mode but f.lux just tones down the bright whites mostly. I believe it also helps with blue light.
Use saline eyedrops (get the kind that say “artificial tears” or “dry eye”) throughout the day. I get an annoying thing called blepheritis, where my lower tear ducts get clogged because I don’t blink enough. A humidifier in your workspace aimed at your face/head is also a good idea. Look away from the monitors every twenty minutes if you remember.
A question for folks working in medical research/hospital settings: With the caveat that I’m sure this will vary based on the culture of each organization, I’m wondering what standard protocol is for addressing MDs and PhDs by name.
My background is in nonprofits and the private sector, and in all my previous jobs it’s been common to simply refer to anyone I’m speaking to by first name. I recently got a job in a large research facility/hospital, and I’m not sure what’s considered an appropriate address. I’m typically emailing and on occasion seeing these folks in person, and I’ve been defaulting to Dr. So-and-so on first contact, then, if they sign off emails using only their first name, I’ll switch to that going forward. But I’m not sure if that’s considered disrespectful. I don’t want to offend anyone – especially since I’m new to this job and this field.
Any advice would be most welcome!
I think what you’re doing is generally fine. I worked with a lot of folks who were MDs in a previous job and a lot of folks who have PhDs and other titles in my current job.
I have never met a PhD in my current job who insisted on always being called Dr X, though I’m sure those people exist. There are MDs who will want to always be addressed by Dr (you will usually find out fast if this is the case), so I would address MDs by email as Dr unless they signed off with a first name. Starting with the most formal title is the rule that I go by. It’s when they have multiple titles that it gets confusing!
You’ve probably not worked with many women with doctorates married to men without one. Getting stuff addressed to Dr. and Mrs. tends to make them insist on the use of Dr in all cases.
If you’re going to default to Dr. default to it for everyone. Otherwise use personal preference or, if culturally acceptable, all first name.
I work in a health non-profit and nothing made me cringe more than a former coworker who addressed medical doctors as Dr and folks with doctorates as Mr/Mrs or, sometimes, first names.
I work for a University department and everyone who has a PhD goes by first name only. I work in an area of academia which is traditionally more male-dominated, but our dept is about 50/50 in terms of gender balance. I also email many folks with PhDs in other departments and have never had anyone (of any gender) insist on being only called Dr. I do call people what they want to be called, and do start out by calling people Dr first if I know that they have a PhD.
I’m really not sure how I could ask my female colleagues who have PhDs about the educational levels of their spouses in order to gauge their title preferences without seeming both rude and intrusive (and also imposing upon them the assumption that they are: 1. married and 2. married to a man), but if you have a surefire method for this, please do let me know.
It’s definitely not disrespectful to switch to their first name once they sign off with it — that’s how they’re supposed to communicate what they want to be called!
Buuuut it’s not foolproof either. I have on at least two occasions that I recall had MDs complain that I was using their first name but not their colleague’s. Yeah, because your colleague signs all their emails with First Last, MD and you sign yours with your first name! Am I supposed to just guess at which one of you means it more? (“All” or “Team” works okay for groups, it’s just awkward.)
I think going off someone’s preference (if they sign off with first name) is very reasonable, and seeing how others address the same individuals to get cues.
The only think I would caveat is that it can be different in different settings – I am very comfortable with staff referring to me by my first name when we are meeting, but I would absolutely want to be “Dr. Cats” if there was a patient / or third parties present where my qualifications may be more important.
Agree that what you’re doing usually works fine, but pay attention to how people around you refer to each other. Just for the data points:
– In a research role in a non-research, non-clinical department at an academic medical center (I had a BA/MA): First names fine for day-to-day work, Dr. Lastname in more formal meetings/communications
– Researcher in a research unit within a healthcare delivery system (I have a PhD): First names fine in all contexts for people WITHIN our department, but elsewhere in the org, Dr. Lastname for MDs or practitioners, first names for non-clinician PhDs
– Administrative/analytic role within the same org, but not in the research unit: almost exclusively Dr. Lastname for MDs, even generally when they refer to one another by first name, but first names only for non-clinician PhDs (although there are a few kind colleagues who throw me a bone and call me Dr. Sugarplum, haha)
True story: My own team lead once said, in reference to an email we received trying to organize a meeting, “Do you know which department Dr. Sugarplum is from? I can’t remember having seen that name before” and he was so embarrassed when I pointed out that Dr. Sugarplum IS ME. You’ll figure out the norms!
As someone who is the family non-achiever because I didn’t finish my doctorate, this made me cringe so hard. Use the titles or don’t, but do it for everyone. Those with doctorates earned the right to be called doctor in any non-clinical role or setting. Calling medical doctors Dr but not those with doctorates is a surefire way to seriously aggravate those with doctorates, especially women (who tend to have people assume they’re not Dr. So-and-so). Getting mail addressed to Dr. and Mrs. was one of the very few things that could infuriate my generally mild mannered mother. Calling her Mrs in any professional setting wasn’t too far behind.
Defaulting to Dr. So-and-so on first contact, then, if they sign off emails using only their first name, switching to that is my usual go to.
As a PhD student and now a PhD, MDs get the Dr. Lastname until they say otherwise, PhDs usually not unless I was being deliberately formal.
I think that’s fine (I worked for a medical research nonprofit for a decade). You will also learn as you get more familiar with the doctors which ones will get fussy about it. Most of them won’t care either way.
I will say there were a handful of doctors who I just always called Dr.; in all three cases they tended to be a bit touchy — two of them I don’t think would have minded if I called them by their first name, but I communicated with them so rarely and they were such VIPs that it just seemed better to stick with the default. The third his colleagues called him by a diminutive (think “Jimmy” instead of “James”) but that was not how he signed his emails, and so I just stuck with Dr. Lastname because it felt weird to call him “Jimmy” without being explicitly given permission (and as mentioned, he could be a little touchy about protocol).
If they sign off by first name, that is usually an invitation to call them by their first name
signed, a doctor who wishes people would take me up on this invitation. . .
PUBLIC HEALTH PSA: datasets and entire pages are currently being removed from the CDC website.
Please download/do what you can ASAP to preserve what you need for your work, and spread the word to colleagues!
Dreadful news. The modern fascist version of book-burning.
To any one who has pivoted out of the PR/comms space -where did you go? I’m contemplating leaving the field or trying something knew and would to know how that worked for yall.
I work for an advocacy nonprofit right now and did polticial comms consulting before that and I just feel like my days are just putting out fires and not moving ahead or making progress. I like big discrete projects if that helps, I don’t think social is my bag, and feel like I don’t have the technical skills for marketing.
Have you thought about reputational risk analysis / management? I didn’t even know that was a thing until my current job, but it appears to be a thriving field.
Travel & tourism? There will always be need for someone with PR/comms experience. Often there are others on a team who are more technical, so larger picture work in planning and execution is helpful. Many destination marketing organizations have several people on a marketing team. And you could broaden out a search by looking at leadership roles, too. If you’re open to possible relocation, you could look at Searchwide Global for current job posts.
Another opportunity might be in higher ed and healthcare, too.
Hello! Question about internal promotions and if you can still have time to think over an offer.
For some background, I work remotely at a midsize company about an hour away from our corporate office. I figured a supervisory role opening was coming up about a year ago and discussed with my own supervisor what I would need to do to be a strong candidate for when something opens up. It is a team of only 3 supervisors and there is VERY low turnover in those jobs and people tend to stay for years at that level.
Due to the low turnover, I have kept my eyes open for other opportunities within the company. Finally a spot in a different, though related department opened up and I applied. They wanted the role to be full time in the corporate office and I was very transparent that would not work for me as it would be about 3 hours of commuting per day and I could do only 1 day per week in office. They said they may make an exception for the right candidate and continued with the interview fully. They expect to have an answer for me within a week. About a day before I had that interview, my supervisor announced her plans to leave moving to a different company. I pulled her aside and let her know that I just applied for a different role but would prefer the supervisor role as it would be less of a stretch role for me. She let me know that she had told our my grandboss that I was the only one she wanted to take over her team.
I know nothing is ever guaranteed, and I certainly don’t want to withdraw from the other interview process and have all of my eggs in one basket, but how long can I keep the company I already work for on the hook *IF* I am offered this first position, when I would really actually prefer the second in which interviews have not started for yet. Any advice appreciated!
No advice but thoughts. The commute alone on the job you don’t want as much would give me pause. They may agree to you only being in the office one day per week but that’s something you’ll may put you at a distinct social and political and therefore career disadvantage. They could also rescind the arrangement. I’d try to gauge the timeline for the job you’d prefer. When is your boss leaving? Would you definitely have to ho through a formal hiring process?
Thank you so much for responding! Yes, that commute would be a nightmare. Weirdly, the person I would be reporting to lives in a completely other state and the company has been VERY remote friendly due to having issues finding talent locally willing to come into the office.
My current boss’s last day is 02/07, and yes, it does require a formal process. I submitted my resume as soon as the posting went live on the internal job board but have not heard back yet to schedule an interview. I believe it would be two rounds of interviews, but I’m not certain yet.
I still would really like to move up from my current position, so I could handle the 1 day a week in office and would get that in writing from them, so if I don’t get option #2, then I would take option #1.
Can you ask your boss for advice?
A coworker of mine has been defamed publicly. It does rise to the legal definition of defamation and it’s obviously false. This defamation happened through no fault of their own.
This is a person I respect and like. This is a person who I’ll make time to chitchat with at work. However I’m not close enough to this person to have their mobile number.
I am so angry for them and sad for them. It is profoundly unfair that this is happening. What can I do to support this coworker?
Document that you witnessed it so they can give it to their lawyer if/when they sue. :-)
And let them know you have done this. I assume they know this has happened? This is just awful, I’m so sorry.
Agree with documenting what you heard and when. Next time you see them, just mention that you’re sorry this is going on and have information should they need it.
Fellow job seekers, how are you finding the job market?
I began my search late last year and the market continues to show no improvement. I applied to a lot of openings but heard back less than a handful of times. It’s concerning how bad the market looks compared to other times I job hunted.
It’s hard to navigate right now. Granted, part of my judgement might be related to the overwhelm I’m feeling about being unemployed. 2 months and counting.
I was applying intermittently for about a year when I got something decent, not great. That’s actually not far off normal for me (niche field). I saw about the same amount of openings as before the pandemic (I was also looking during the pandemic and yikes, just no postings for a while there) and lower salaries/less remote enthusiasm than during “great resignation.”
Are you applying only for remote jobs, or is the US job market equally bad for in-person jobs?
It’s terrible for both, at least around here.
I have been looking for full time work since the end of September or additional part-time work since early November. So far:
1. I am interviewed for about half of the jobs I apply to in the industry I want to go back to as long as I leave my Bachelor’s degree off my resume.
2. I am only recruited for financial services, which I don’t want to be anywhere near.
3. I interview poorly and haven’t received any job offers besides retail. According to a mock interview I had yesterday, I’m not listening to the questions properly and need to avoid negativity. I don’t understand how to answer “tell me about a time” questions like experiencing a setback, dealing with a difficult coworker, or dealing with a difficult customer without including any negativity, though.
4. Like leaving my Bachelor’s degree off my resume, lies of omission or stretching the truth appear to be essential for just being palatable to other human beings, let alone getting a job.
If your workplace gets grants from NHTSA (mine does), you might want to make contingency plans. The National Safety Council’s Road to Zero coalition just suspended all its activities due to a Stop Work order. I’ll put a link in a reply to this comment.
https://www.nsc.org/road/resources/road-to-zero-notice?
Trying to figure out how much interview follow-up to do, and when, when I’m not sure I would take the job but want to leave doors open?
I’m federal government-adjacent, and have been looking to switch for a couple years unrelated to the recent onset of fascism (but that doesn’t help, obviously). Last September, I got a callback from one of the jobs I applied to, had a good long chat with the hiring manager, and it sounded like it might be a good fit but also their whole business model is uncertain (they have one big project that has about 16 months left, and after that is a giant question mark funding-wise. It’s a state-level project though so it’s currently safe from tfg and his cronies). The conversation back then was basically “I don’t think you’re right for this job you applied for, but there’s this *other* job we’ll have opening up soon, I really want you for that one” so we left it open for them to draft the JD and post it etc. I followed up via email 3 or 4 times in the intervening months to see where they’re at, and it ended up taking longer than they originally thought it would (as Alison always says) to write and post the job.
Fast forward to last week, I finally got called back for an “official” interview with two potential coworkers— I think it went fine? Was told they’d have a decision by next (i.e. this) week. It’s now the end of the week. I know things take a long time, but the complicating factor is that in the meantime my current work has become more tolerable— I’ve started on two new projects that are promising, and also might better set me up to pivot to another role in a year or two, which ultimately is still what I want. BUT, then, enter the fascists. As of right now it seems that the projects I’m working on are safe (again, for now…) but it’s not impossible they will be targeted in the future by the chaos gremlins. So there’s uncertainty if I stay, uncertainty if I go, everything is terrible right now. But I have been here long enough that I think I have more institutional backing if I stay compared to a potential financial cliff at a new place where I’d be the new guy (last in, first out, right?).
So where I’m at is, if this other potential job wants to give me an offer, I am totally fine with them taking all their time to figure it out so I can have maybe a little better idea what’s coming down the line in the current federal situation. But now I’m feeling a little bad that I didn’t send a thank-you email (again, I did back in September, just not for this Thursday interview when they thought they’d have a decision by Monday, and as we all know last week was pretty distracting). And now it seems awkwardly late, like I’m fishing for a reply, and I kind of don’t really want to remind them I’m not-not waiting to hear back from them, because I don’t for sure know that I want it and the longer they wait the more the dust will settle so I might have a better sense how things stand where I’m currently at. Is it rude to not follow up again and just wait for them to get back to me, whenever that might be?
Ironically, if the interview had happened like a month and a half ago, I probably would be thinking more favorably about accepting (this is all if I even get an offer), but now I am excited about these new projects where I am, BUT all that is if they don’t get destroyed by the chaos gremlins, and that’s like, who even knows now.
Thoughts? As I said, I am probably overthinking this… but also we are in highly uncertain times, aren’t we.
Send an email individually to each of the people you talked to, thanking them for meeting with you, mentioning one or two things you enjoyed about the conversation, and saying that you look forward to staying in touch. Keep it light, and don’t apologize for the delay–it’s been quite a week for lots of people in the US. A thank you note is not an agreement to accept an offer or a nag if it is done right–it’s just basic politeness. You are literally thanking them for taking the time to speak to you. It’s not awkwardly late yet, but it will be if you keep waiting.
And no employer in any hiring I have ever been involved with as a manager or applicant has ever been ready with an offer in 48 hours. Too many approvals, too many moving parts. Thank you note timing has never been an influential factor at all. It’s almost always HR or senior leadership being slow.
To answer your broader question– as someone in a long politicized and volatile industry, I have had to accept that I can only make the best choice I can with the information I have. Sometimes it works out, sometimes I’m kicking myself. But we all have to accept that there are no “right” or “safe” choices.
I had to quit a toxic workplace abruptly and have been applying to all the possibilities including the local temp agency. To my surprise the temp agency may have a remote job at a seemingly average to above average company. I’m just waiting on the company to respond to the temp agency about the next step but I’m a little worried. Is it odd to get a remote job through a temp place? It is likely a temp to hire situation. The agency did say they provide the equipment but not sure if there’s anything else I should check on if they do decide to go ahead.
I work for a fully remote organization, and we use an agency to find our temps. Takes too much time to vet them ourselves.
I would ask if there is a physical office, and if so, what percentage of employees and temp employees work from it. I think our temps have an easier time because everyone is virtual and they are not left out of anything. And I would ask about training/onboarding/support, because you really need to know who your people are if you are remote.
Hope it is a nice reset from the toxic job–sometimes having a little less of an office culture can be a good change.
Can I pick your brain about this? I was let go from my job of 21 years and at age 57, I am literally freaking out a bit about finding another job that is remote if possible. I do customer service and don’t think I have that many skills other than that to recommend me.
If anyone has any other advice, please tell me. I need all the help I can get.
If you could manage to do an in-office job, I suggest you apply to these as well as remote ones. This would increase the pool of available jobs for you.
Thank you that was reassuring I hope it works out now!
I’m a fairly new manager and having a communication issue with a trainee. My company is at the overlap of several niche areas, so we generally hire someone with experience in one area and train on the rest. Someone just joined our team and is struggling with not already knowing everything to the point where they will interrupt me explaining something to say that yes, they know this. Even when I am explaining something about our custom, non-intuitive software. This person is missing stuff, making mistakes because of it, and I’m starting to get frustrated.
I think part of this is cultural. They come from a culture where it is standard to overlap over each others’ sentences. It shows interest and engagement with the other person. In general, they have a good attitude and work ethic, so I think it really is a cultural difference. It doesn’t help that I come from a culture where this kind of overlap comes off as rude. I think written instructions can help and am working on building up a library of written training materials but am already covering two FTE roles and this company doesn’t have a great history with writing things down. Also, it would be weird to write out a response when she comes to me with a question in person (which is standard in our office).
Any suggestions on addressing this?
Have a 1-1 with her, so you are not worried about publicly embarassing her.
Tell her that in your organisation / region / country it is considered rude to interrupt or overlap when someone else is talking, especially when they are answering her questions and especially when they are senior to her.
Then – as her manager – instruct her to stop doing that – to everyone, not just to you or other managers. This is part of your duties as her manager and trainer.
I should have clarified that the culture I grew up with is not the one we’re in now. It just sticks out more to me than others. Locally, it isn’t terrific but not seen as rude. It is an issue that this person missing out on information when I say it. As a result, they’re both making avoidable mistakes and creating loads of extra work (e.g. a daily task that would be ten minutes was an hour+). It also means that I’m repeating myself when I am overwhelmed with other work.
I’m in a lead sales role and now looking for greener pastures. I can’t list exact sales figures on my resume because my boss (who also owns the company) doesn’t allow me access to view final invoices and purchase orders.
When I’ve asked customers to see invoices from my boss, they were shocked that I didn’t have access to that info. Some stopped taking me and my company seriously. So I stopped asking.
I don’t have an NDA but I have nothing concrete on my resume to talk about anyway, other than opened accounts and territories. I can’t *show off* – I’ve been in my role for 7+ years so I must be doing something right.
Should I just approximate sales #s on my resume? TIA!
Can you back-calculate your gross sales volumes from your commission payments? Are you on commission or just flat salary?
Frankly, not being able to see the final invoice numbers or purchase orders is sketchy, you don’t know if you are being paid properly if you are on any sort of commission plan.
Estimates are probably fine, and RUN from this guy.
I could use some job search encouragement. Despite being qualified for at least 4 completely different fields….two are largely government agencies, academic, arts, science, and/or grant funded, and the other two are retail and food service (which I absolutely am trying to escape from, I’d really like to make a living wage at some point in my life.) On top of that, as a single woman, if the current administration gets its way, I am absolutely screwed. So even looking for a better job just got harder, let alone actually getting one. Sigh.
Good luck with your job search! On the bright side, the unemployment rate is not bad. I can totally see why you’d want to get out of retail and food service. Every employer with an opening is looking for talented and hard working people… they may not be able to tell easily who those people are so don’t take rejections as anything but one person’s subjective decision.
Thanks. It’s just hard finding the right openings!
There was some discussion of sleep apnea and CPAPs a couple weeks ago, and someone raised a concern that a CPAP might be noisy. My ResMed AirSense 11 is extremely quiet.
You may want to try asking this question in the Weekend thread. This is the work thread.
Oops–I thought I was in the weekend thread.
No worries…I will bump this to the weekend thread.
Thank you for posting. I will make a note of this and suggest this model to a relative.
I ran, as a volunteer, a very small museum. For many years we brought Curator Talks to public libraries, corporate events, and other groups within 90 minute drive. These were themed slide shows and required a staffer to drive to the location with a laptop or sometimes just a thumb drive. This was a small but steady source of revenue for the museum.
When everything shut down, we cancelled a few gigs and waited for the world to recover. Then one of our repeat clients suggested we Zoom a program to their facility. It worked!
We now able to present Curator Talks all over the US and the world even on pretty short notice. One staffer can easily do 2 programs in a day if necessary. There is less wear and tear on our tiny staff but our reputation and revenue are growing steadily.
Apologies. I was trying to respond to the question about good things that have come out of the Covid years. Now I can’t figure out how to delete the message!