warning an intern about a bad manager, former colleague is running a scam, and more

by Alison Green on January 20, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Should I have warned an intern about a bad manager?

I am a middle manager in a large organization and I am second-guessing how I handled a situation with an employee whom I used to supervise.

From 2020 to 2021, I had the pleasure of supervising an outstanding intern, Anna. Anna was the kind of employee that any employer would be lucky to have. During her internship, Anna expressed interest in staying on with us after her graduation. It can be difficult to secure full-time permanent employment with our organization, and the hiring process is lengthy and onerous for managers and candidates alike. However, there is a “shortcut” for qualified former interns to transition to a permanent position upon graduation. Anna was eventually offered such a position by one of my peers, and she asked my advice on whether she should accept the offer.

My dilemma: The hiring manager was known to have terrible people management skills (not at the level of abuse or harassment, but that’s a pretty low bar). However, I chose not to share this with Anna. I didn’t want to “poison the well” or unduly influence her, and thought she was mature enough to make her own decision. I also thought that a well-paid permanent position with great benefits isn’t something that comes along every day for new grads, and the internal mobility opportunities would mean that even if this particular job wasn’t a good fit, Anna wouldn’t be stuck there for long. So, I took more of a coaching role in our conversation rather than an advice-giving one (though I did suggest she speak with current employees on the team). In the end, Anna accepted the manager’s offer.

Anna’s team has ended up being just as, if not more, toxic as I had feared and Anna’s mental health has taken a beating. Anna eventually found other opportunities within the organization but I feel terrible that I didn’t warn her to run far away from the bad manager in the first place. What, if anything, could I have done differently?

I’m a fan of letting people know when a lot of other people have found a manager tough to work with. You don’t need to come out and say “she’s a nightmare” if you don’t feel comfortable being that candid, but you can say, “I do want to warn you some people have found her to be a difficult boss. I don’t have firsthand experience, but I’d definitely suggest talking to people who have worked for her and asking about their experiences so that you’re not going in blind.” If you know specifics — or specific themes — ideally you’d find a way to share those.

“Well-paid positions with great benefits don’t come along every day and she wouldn’t be stuck there for long” is a legitimate thing for Anna to decide, but it shouldn’t be something you decide on her behalf.

2. Former colleague is running a scam

My partner, Chris, has recently gotten an advanced degree in a newer and very niche field which has documented ROI for businesses, but tends to get cut as non-essential when businesses are doing their yearly budgeting. Since it’s so niche, Chris has worked collaboratively with many people in the industry in our country (non-U.S.). Since it’s a growing industry, he’s also been tapped to teach, including for the university where he got his masters.

The problem is that last year one of his colleagues, Hank, ran a master’s program at the local university and asked Chris to teach a course, throughout which Chris came to understand the program almost didn’t happen due to enrollment being too low to justify the cost. Hank also has a small consulting business for this field. About 50% of the students in the course (all the most recent enrollees) were brand new employees of Hank’s business. Turns out, Hank had employed these new consultants on the condition that they enroll in the year-long master’s program.

Chris has been made aware from one of his former students that none of Hank’s employees have earned enough as consultants to recoup their tuition fees in the year since they graduated, and most of these employees have returned to their former industries. And still, Hank is asking Chris to teach another course for the same program as he has a fresh new crop of bright-eyed consultants to pay the high tuition fees. Chris has turned down the opportunity, citing low bandwidth, but I think he has a greater responsibility to communicate with his contacts higher up in this small university to make them aware of the ethical issue at hand. Chris is more concerned this will hurt him in the long run if Hank finds out he went above his head. How do you think he should handle this situation?

Yes, Chris has a moral and ethical responsibility to tell his contacts there what’s going on. Hank is exploiting his employees to pressure them to enroll in the program that justifies his job; it’s an abuse of power, and it’s something that the university wouldn’t want to be associated with if they knew. You should encourage Chris to think through exactly how this could hurt him if Hank finds out about it. If his fears are warranted, he can ask his contacts to investigate without naming him as the person who provided the initial tip-off.

3. Can I befriend my future coworker’s daughter?

I moved cities six months ago and am working on transferring to the site closer to home. In preparation for my new role, I’ve been meeting with people I will be working with, to start establishing my new working relationships.

Recently I met with “Beth,” who I will be working with closely. Beth seems friendly and competent and we hit it off well. I’m excited to work with her! After our initial meeting, we did some small talk and she told me a bit about her daughter. It sounds like her daughter is around my age and we have some common interests. Also, her daughter’s job is close to where I live and she is considering moving to my suburb.

Can I try to befriend the daughter somehow? Would it be weird or inappropriate to try? Do I need to wait until I’ve been at the new site for a while and have more of a relationship with Beth? Can I just ask for a number or is there a more roundabout way to approach it?

You don’t have a lot to go on here, so I think it would be too much to come out with, “I’d like to have lunch with Jane. Can you connect us?” But you could certainly say, “If Jane is looking for people to talk with about llama grooming (or whatever the mutual interest is), feel free to give her my contact info. I’m still pretty new to the area and would love to meet people who are into llama combing techniques!” Then Beth can decide, based on her knowledge of her daughter (and potentially her feelings about meshing work and family worlds in that way), whether to connect you.

4. Network separately or stick together at conferences?

I recently attended a conference with a majority of my colleagues on a topic marginally applicable to my position (and theirs). I was going to sit with a coworker, but someone I met on the field tour the day before asked me to sit with him and I moved tables. We had good discussions on his projects, and I met four folks I had not met previously.

My question has to do with perception or best practice. The other 16 coworkers stayed in “our” group and sat together, but did mingle during the breaks and the after-hours event. I always think it is better to spread out and meet someone new and learn about how the subject impacts them, so I generally will sit with new people at conferences. My boss said someone asked if I was mad at my colleagues since I didn’t sit with them. Personally, I think my colleagues looked less approachable since they were together. Not everyone is comfortable sitting with strangers (and I am exhausted at the end of my day), so I understand. Professionally, which should happen? What should I do at the next conference (in three months)?

It’s really up to each individual attendee, but a big part of the benefit of conferences is networking so your approach is generally the more useful one. It’s a little odd that your colleagues interpreted that as you being “mad at them,” but if traditionally they’ve all stuck together at conferences, they may see it more as team bonding time than networking time. Maybe before the next one you can mention to them that you see conferences as an opportunity to meet new people in your field, which has been useful in X and Y ways, and so you try to break off from the group and talk to other attendees.

5. Who owns a work journal?

I know that work products created in the course of most regular employment belong to the organization — but what about materials that have to do with work but are entirely individual? I’m thinking of notes or reflections on one’s own performance, written in a paper notebook bought with personal funds but on the subject of work, e.g. self-determined goals, how to improve job performance or satisfaction, and so on. Stuff that feels really personal (like, wouldn’t pass it on to my hypothetical successor, wouldn’t want it to be read by colleagues or boss without redaction) but is created during the work day, related to work experiences but not work products.

Basically, I feel that my work output and experience could both be improved through more reflection and intentional goal- and priority-setting on a more granular level than I get from my boss, but I would be afraid of what I write getting into the wrong hands (though it’s unlikely, as I’d keep my notebook in my bag and we don’t have a snoopy office). But bringing a personal journal to work sounds like a terrible idea! And I would want to keep a record, not write on TP and burn it immediately after.

I feel on a basic moral/logical level that everyone is entitled to an inner world and room for errors, honest unpolished reflection, and at least a tiny bit of privacy, but I don’t think that’s totally true in reality. In practice, I don’t think it’s super likely that my notebook would be intercepted (one reason to stick to paper), but I’m still curious.

Technically under the law, your employer could argue that it belonged to them — because products relating to your work created at work belong to your employer.

But in practice, they’d be very unlikely try; it’s not the sort of thing most managers would have any interest in laying claim to. The worst scenario would be more likely to be someone misunderstanding what was in the notebook, thinking you had notes on clients or projects that someone else could benefit from, and insisting you turn it over when leaving. But you could easily avoid that by taking it home with you before you quit. Other than that, as long as you kept it in your bag, it’s very unlikely to be claimed by your company.

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{ 171 comments }

{ 171 comments… read them below }

  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    A reminder: We’ve had a recent increase in trolling here, and you can help me by NOT RESPONDING to it. Instead, please flag the comment for me (to do that, reply with a link, which will send your comment to moderation so I’ll see it) and I’ll take care of it. If you want, you can respond “reported” so people know it’s been dealt with and isn’t just being allowed to stand. But please do not engage. Thank you.

  2. Daria grace*

    #2, the university should have a whistleblower procedure and contact for raising unethical conduct that is designed to as far as possible protect the whistleblower. This very much falls into the category of things that should be reported to them

    1. Observer*

      That’s a great suggestion.

      The university should absolutely want to know about this, even if they don’t give a flip about ethics. At least in the US, something like this could cause them immense trouble if it ever hit the press or regulators got their teeth into it.

      1. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

        Well, and depending on what Hank is telling his students, there is potential for a lawsuit. No way to know for sure from this letter, but it’s not unprecended in this general situation.

    2. MCMonkeybean*

      Yes! And this seems quite unlikely to blow back on Chris as it sounds like Hank doesn’t even know that he knows. I would expect he’d assume it was one of the students who told the university.

      1. Momma Bear*

        If I were in this position, I’d both encourage Chris to report it and encourage him to encourage the students who told him to report it as well.

        1. Seal*

          Same here. I’d argue that there’s more risk of blowback if Chris doesn’t report it. At some point the university is going to find out about Hank’s scam and investigate. As a former instructor, Chris is already associated with the program and knows about the scam; by not reporting it he’ll be considered complicit. The blowback from being involved in a scam, however circumstantial or tangential, is far worse than being know as a whistleblower.

          1. Paint N Drip*

            Totally agree that blowback from being involved in a scam […] is far worse than being know as a whistleblower
            Plus my instinct with Hank poisoning the well with Chris’ industry contacts is… he doesn’t have as much pull as fear might suggest. Anyone worth their salt hearing about his sketchy program will immediately clock Hank as a grifter, and any negatives he has to say about Chris won’t be considered at all

  3. Observer*

    #1 – Advice to the intern

    “Well-paid positions with great benefits don’t come along every day and she wouldn’t be stuck there for long” is a legitimate thing for Anna to decide, but it shouldn’t be something you decide on her behalf.

    If you take nothing else away *this* is the main thing you need to keep in mind. Not just for interns. Do not make decisions for people. Give them the information they need and let them make their *own* decision.

    As a practical matter, it’s possible that if Anna had known that this manager is that bad, it might have helped her mental health. Because it can make a *huge* difference in how something lands when you know that you are not the problem, your manager is.

    Fundamentally, given your position, you did have a moral obligation to give her a heads up. Not “Oh, she’s a monster.” But the kind of language that Alison provides is a warning that lays out the potential problem and allows her to do her due diligence and make a reasonable decision.

    1. Meera*

      Yes, especially if Anna was new – when inexperienced, it can be hard to tell the difference between legitimate feedback and gaslighting; or what is and isn’t reasonable professional behavior for both yourself and your manager. But a bit of info might have helped put that in context; and also provided a contact for a sympathetic ear or someone to talk things over with to help parse that out.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      I’ve been scarred for life and developed a mental disability after a bad job. Mine was a drastically different situation than this, but a bad boss/work situation is like drinking poison in able to live. I get what your logic was at the time, but next time, I’d warn the person, because recovery from work abuse is a lot to deal with.

      1. Wish I’d been warned*

        This. Especially if you have an existing relationship with the potential new hire. On the flip side, I’ve been in the position where I’ve been trying, desperately and telepathically, to convey to potential new coworkers in the interview phase “hey. Hey. *Hey.* I promise that you *really* want to talk to people about the work culture here, in a forum that’s not on company time,” which is very awkward when that’s the first meeting. Many of them don’t know to ask, but I’m still carrying the scars.

    3. Seal*

      Agreed. It would be different if the OP had shared information about benefits and opportunities for advancement with the intern when she asked for advice about taking the job in question. Those are all things that often factor into the decision to accept a job or not, and things someone new to the workforce and/or a full time job might not know or think to consider. The same is true about giving their intern a heads up about a bad manager. I’ve seen and coached a number of interns and students at my various workplaces and most of them knew very little about the organization beyond their particular unit. Those who moved into permanent positions elsewhere in the organization once they graduated often experienced a great deal of culture shock, even if they had a good manager. While you don’t want to discourage a good intern in particular for applying for or accepting a permanent position, you do have an obligation to warn them about any red flags you know of.

      1. Agree*

        “Agreed. It would be different if the OP had shared information about benefits and opportunities for advancement with the intern when she asked for advice about taking the job in question.”

        Yes! If this is an important criteria for OP, they can say so. Every grown person understands that people prioritize different things (as money, job security, personal relationships, room for advancement). But OP should not assume everybody has the same priorities and be clear how they come to a recommendation.

        Also, I would consider telling this Anna. When I had a similar situation at work, i doubted myself heavily, because I thought it was me who was the problem. If the manager was problematic, obviously not everybody would have such a good relationship with them? It helped me a lot when finally somebody was honest with me. That allowed me to re-calibrate things. But I understand that it is risky for a manager.

    4. BellStell*

      This exactly. I had a similar situation last year that involved HR too. In August my former manager and former team hired my 2023 intern. She asked me to be a reference so HR sent me the form which I filled out honestly and flagged that the missing stair *who had already had two employees moved from him because he sucks that much* was not in a place to manager her much less train her for the role *because he does not know how to do things in the role like website work etc* and I know because he used to come to me and his former employees (the two moved) to ask us to do stuff. I spoke to HR too and asked “given the situation do you really think this is a good idea?” And alllllll HR said was if new employee/former intern began to have issues she would have to bring them up”. Well there you go and guess what? Things are ok because former intern has decided she now wants his job so is using him just as much hahaha

      1. Nah*

        Honestly? Good for her! If she keeps it up maybe you’ll have an actually competent leader in that position someday, lol.

    5. Not That Kind of Doctor*

      Years ago I was getting in the midst of changing jobs. New job was closer to home, $9+/hr more, substantially better benefits… I had already accepted when a trusted coworker found out and had a visibly cringe reaction. Turns out, she had worked for my soon to be manager and her comment was “he’s the kind of guy who would be fun to have beer with, but as a manager, he’s garbage.”
      I spent the first 6 months going home in tears regretting my life choices, then the next 7 years walking on eggshells and trying not to explode at the often malicious ineptitude. I was literally sending out resumes and scheduling interviews when he announced that he was retiring. The last 2 years under new, consistent, transparent, equitable manager have been bliss by comparison!

    7. Totally Minnie*

      I was the Anna in this situation about 15 years ago. I wasn’t an intern, but I was an entry level professional at an organization that transferred about half a dozen people between its various offices every year. My boss and her boss called me in for a meeting and told me I was being transferred to a different location, and by the end of my second day with the new manager I was an absolute wreck. I called my former boss and asked to meet with her for lunch, and she told me she had worked with my new manager and knew what she was like, but her boss had told her not to tell me, and grandboss used the exact language the LW used here, she didn’t want to “poison the well.”

      I really and truly wish that she had poisoned the crap out of that well. I cried in a closet at least twice a week while I worked with that nightmare manager and it would have been nice if someone had warned me.

      1. Curious*

        Did you look at former boss differently when you found out she chose not to tell you?

        When I look at the letter, I wonder they want validation that it was OK not to say more. Alison uses a light touch with these types of questions.

        1. Totally Minnie*

          Yes, I did. I thought differently of basically all leadership at that company, because they all knew what this manager was and covered for her.

          I do believe that the boss who didn’t warn me had good intentions and was doing what she thought was right, but when it comes down to it, she had knowledge that could have helped me avoid a miserable situation and she chose not to protect me. After that, I just couldn’t trust her in the same way I did before.

    8. Education Mic*

      It really bothered me how OP thought through everything Anna might want to consider, decided what he thought was best for her, and then moved forward with his choice, and framed it as “Anna is mature enough to make her own decision.” If you really believed that, you would have given her the information she explicitly asked you for and let her make that decision herself. Who knows what Anna other options might have looked like?

      Anna asked for OPs opinion specifically because he was an insider and he didn’t give it to her the information she asked for so as not to “poison the well.” If you’re not comfortable sharing negative feedback about a peer, just say you can’t speak to any of it and let the person infer from there in the future. When it’s someone you had a close professional relationship with, like a direct report, it’s really unfair to pretend you’re going to help share your insider info and think through things and then hide extremely relevant information. I would feel so betrayed m, and extremely angry, if a boss I had worked hard for had done this.

    9. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      Not to mention that the relationship between Anna and OP probably suffered. Had OP warned Anna, Anna would then look out for red flags and would be aware that her manager might turn out to be toxic.

      If someone helped me find a job at a place that turned out to be toxic, and they hadn’t warned me, I wouldn’t be happy with that someone.

  4. RLC*

    LW4: I’m another “conferences are for networking and building new relationships” proponent. And I’ve had colleagues who also huddled together in their own little comfortable group and wondered what on earth made me so interested in circulating and learning new things from new people in our field. I’d try (usually without success) to get said colleagues to circulate with me, and end up figuring that they didn’t want to leave their comfort zone.

    1. allathian*

      For me it really depends on the conference, but I’m in a fairly small field and the conference I attend most regularly usually has about 150 attendees, so it’s not huge. There’s only one panel track, for example. I generally attend with my coworker who has the same job description. We generally sit together during the presentations because it’s not appropriate to network with others when you’re supposed to listen to the presentation and maybe ask a question at the Q&A. But both of us make a point to network with other people during lunch, dinner on the first of two days, and coffee breaks. I’m glad my coworker and I are on the same page on this!

      1. Lexi Vipond*

        Also, two is quite a nice number to go networking or socialising as, as long as you’re open to it – you can be casually chatting and draw in people around you without having to go from that awkward silent start. 16 is kind of intimidating!

        1. amoeba*

          Yeah, I do actually prefer to go with a colleague or two, never had a problem to network and still hang out together – if anything, it helped, because we each met people we knew and introduced them to each other. 16 on the other hand…

    2. Ellis Bell*

      I’m just so weirded out by the way this message was delivered to OP: “My boss said someone asked if I was mad at my colleagues since I didn’t sit with them”. Who is the “someone” and why are they given to maximum drama in their assumptions? Why didn’t the boss respond with something more reasonable? Or tell OP what they thought themselves? Is this a really poorly worded joke not meant to be taken seriously? I suppose it’s possible the boss agreed with a random bystander/colleague so much that they felt reporting the perception was worth more than expressing their own views, or actual advice. I’d be more inclined to take the boss seriously if they’d said something about the optics of a good team being important to them, and leaving some room for dialogue on the topic.

      1. Myrin*

        I had the same thoughts. It’s not even clear if the “someone” was one of the conference-attending colleagues in question, someone else from OP’s company (who had maybe heard about the situation in passing without being involved), or another conference attendee who has nothing to do with OP’s company (except for, apparently, noticing whether they all appear as a group at all times or not).
        What a vague and strange piece of “feedback”.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        I’m guessing it made a bit more sense in context, like somebody said, “I hope we didn’t do anything to offend LW. She seemed to be avoiding us at the conference” and the manager perhaps phrased it badly, saying “people thought you were ‘mad’ at them.”

        But yeah, it seems like a rather middle school way to describe things. I’d be more likely to assume that a colleague had met a friend from outside our company or something. At the conferences I’ve attended, it is usual for colleagues to sit together, but I wouldn’t assume somebody was annoyed at everybody if they didn’t.

        However, I also wouldn’t really think it’s about comfort zones if people prefer t remain with colleagues. People have different aims for attending conferences and some may find t more beneficial to remain with colleagues and discuss how topics relate to their specific context or they may be more interested in learning from the presentations than in networking.

        1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          Knowing the importance of networking, for me it’s totally about comfort zones if I’m sitting with the same people I came with the whole time!

          I was recently at a conference where two sets of colleagues each wanted to all have lunch together, and they were both including me. I have several hats in the organisation. It would not have been possible to merge the two sets because of confidentiality issues. Before I could decide which group to have lunch with, I was requisitioned to take care of one of the speakers with language barrier problems. I went to both sets of colleagues and explained that I had to stay with the speaker, to make sure that nobody thought I was trying to avoid them. So I think OP might do well to mention her intention of networking to her colleagues at future events.

    3. Nodramalama*

      To me it’s weird you tried to “get them out of their comfort zones”. It’s not a high school disco. Lots of people do not like networking.

      1. Nebula*

        But networking is generally considered one of the main reasons for going to conferences. Whether people like it or not, it’s not ridiculous to try and encourage them to network.

          1. Happy meal with extra happy*

            Okay, and? I think you’ve, ironically, tried to create drama in a situation where there is none.

          2. Dido*

            do you think the company would spend thousands of dollars to send them to the conference if they knew they weren’t doing anything there?

            1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

              I’ve always assumed the company sends people to conferences to learn, not to network. Networking might be a benefit to the employee, but unless you’re in sales it doesn’t seem likely to benefit the company?

              1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

                You also learn by networking. Networking isn’t just hey keep me in mind for future openings. It’s making connections so maybe you find out a little more detail than what was presented which makes it easier to implement at your own company, or even find a new way to do things.

                Or you find out that rockstar employee is thinking of moving on and you tell your boss who has the perfect opening for them at your company. Or any of million things.

              2. Venus*

                Depends on your situation. I’m a scientist and am sent to conferences to learn about research that isn’t yet published, and that requires networking. If my boss wanted me to learn about easy things then I would stay home and read books. I have been told that I have to network at conferences, as do my coworkers. If there was no value in networking then everything would be online.

                1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

                  When I’m at a conference I’m there mainly to learn from the presentations. I know the importance of networking and so I’ll do my best to talk to whoever I might be introduced to. But I generally find it excruciating, so I’ll only do it if I really have to and I certainly won’t try to say hello to anybody unless I already know them and are certain they’ll remember me.

                2. amoeba*

                  Yeah, I mean, I do like to mingle a bit and meet new people, but scientifically, I mainly learn from the presentations and poster sessions. During those, sure, you’re absolutely supposed to walk around and look at people’s posters and it would be quite weird to stay in your corner with your colleagues and ignore the people showing their research – but that’s quite a different situation from the conference dinner!

              3. Bitte Meddler*

                I’ve worked for companies where they’ve said they’ll only pay for me to attend a conference if I then create a presentation and teach the entire department what I just learned.

                I end up being so focused on taking notes — and then polishing them in between speakers and at the end of the day — that I hardly talk to another person.

                1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

                  Yeah, this is my experience. We get sent to the Fancy!Product conference, coordinate with coworkers to attend as many presentations as humanly possible, take notes, discuss with coworkers during the breaks, come back home and present on what we learned.

            2. Irish Teacher.*

              I don’t think there is any reason to believe they weren’t doing anything. Presumably, they were listening to presentations, asking questions, taking notes… Networking can be one benefit of attending a conference and yes, you can learn from it, but it isn’t the only benefit and certainly isn’t the only reason a company will send people to conferences.

              Some of this is a “learning styles” thing. Sure, some people learn best by discussion and interaction but others learn best by reading and listening and presumable those who chose not to network were using the conference in the way that worked best for them.

          3. Jo*

            My field is emerging IT, complete with it’s stereotypical introverts! Especially now with so many online and virtual options, if my organization is paying to send you to an in-person conference, they expect networking as well as learning.

            That said, it doesn’t have to be hard-core. (We aren’t in sales.) You can strike up one-on-one conversations. There are always a group that lingers after a session, corralling the speaker with more questions. That’s may be an easy way to identify people with similar roles or interest. Simply choosing a meal table that is not full of co-workers allows you to mix with new people at meals.

            We have folks who embrace making new contacts and become “friends” with everyone in the room. And those who move at a much more select pace. But the expectation exists that making contacts is part of the job when it comes to attending conferences.

        2. Lenora Rose*

          Most conferences have panels and discussion topics if not outright classes, and many people go to see the panelists and learn.

          Networking can be useful but it also can’t be forced. People trying to do it who aren’t genuinely interested in talking to the other person and/or about the topic at hand can come across as the opposite of interesting and valuable new contacts.

        3. Totally Minnie*

          Conferences also offer informational sessions and other opportunities to learn. Networking isn’t the only purpose of them.

      2. Magpie*

        Why is it weird? It doesn’t sound like RLC was being weird or forceful about convincing colleagues to network. It sounds more like they said “I’m going to go circulate and meet some new people, does anyone want to come with?” and then didn’t press when everyone declined. Sometimes people feel more comfortable doing new things when someone offers to do it with them so maybe someone in the group was waiting for that kind of offer.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          Yeah it’s clear from the rest of the comment that the colleagues were asking RLC what was so interesting/useful about networking, and when he ‘figured out’ they didn’t want to do it themselves he left them alone.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            And there are contexts where you do in fact expect the people you are with to be moving out of their comfort zone (in a narrow, pre-known way, for a limited time).

    4. AcademiaNut*

      I tend to circulate but also interact with local colleagues. I’ll also keep an eye on juniors or new people when I’m at a familiar conference – introduce them to people, make sure they’ve got an invite to join the group for dinner the first night – so that if they want to network themselves, they have a good start on it.

    5. Maxouillenet*

      One day I had a training session with other sheltered workshops for customer-facing sectors. At the start, each sheltered workshop worker was grouped with the coworkers from their sheltered workshop, including me. The trainer made us stand up and change places so that we were with the same neighbors as before.
      ( It was a training session in small group, there must have been a dozen of us)
      So okay, it wasn’t a networking event, but it enabled me to develop my networking without giving the impression that you’re angry with your coworkers, since it was the trainer’s decision )
      So I think it was a good initiative, even if the trainer had other faults ( nothing serious, just the classic fault of thinking that all angry customers have a limit they won’t cross, and thinking that we’re caricaturing when in role-play we’re imitating a customer who’s realistically not nice).

    6. BatManDan*

      As someone that coaches “stop ‘networking’ and start building relationships that matter” on a daily basis (it’s actually my career), I’m completely for the “spread out” approach. Like someone below mentioned, if you and a coworker are in similar tracks / breakouts, there is nothing wrong with sitting together and comparing notes, but during the more “open” parts of a conference, people should be actively seeking out new connections.

    7. fhqwhgads*

      Yeah, every manager I’ve had in the past 15 years strongly discouraged large groups from sticking together at conferences. If they sent 12 of us to a conference, they wouldn’t expect to see more than 2 of us at the same table – unless it was a prearranged thing where specific people from our company was meeting up with specific people from a client/vendor/whatever.

      1. Heirloom Tomato Heiress*

        I work for a department that supports a LOT of other departments on a broad level – at conferences and events with everyone, we have specifically been told we should NOT be seated at a table with anyone else from our department unless there are no other seats left. We are also not to stand around the edges of the room for portions of the event that require talking to the other people at our table.

    8. Hush42*

      Honestly I would love to go to a conference *with* a colleague like you who is good at networking. It’s not that I don’t want to network at something like that, it’s that my social anxiety always stops me from making the first move. But for some reason having someone to mingle with helps. My city put on a Professional Women’s event a couple of years ago that included forced mingling- they put you at tables of 8 people and then every 30 minutes or so they switched it up so you were meeting and talking with multiple people throughout the night. This was much easier for me because there were rules and directions as far as what to do and who to talk to.

      1. I own one tenacious plant*

        I like to have a buddy at conferences. I’ve been in my industry for going on 20 yrs. I know lots of people. I still find networking intimidating and prefer to meander around with a friend. I thought I would one day grow out of it, but I have not.

      2. But what to call me?*

        This would be helpful for me, too. I’d be happy to network, but any networking event that requires me to figure out how to approach strangers out of the blue and start talking to them is just going to result in me standing awkwardly by a wall, internally freaking out about how I’m completely failing at networking.

    9. Lenora Rose*

      I need a balance; I am willing to spend time networking – and in fact, sitting to meals is one of the best times to do so, as if things falter at least there’s food to eat (and to create another topic if it’s especially good/awful). But I also need someone familiar/comfortable to retreat to, and if I don’t have colleagues willing to share some hangout time, aside from during panels, I will be more likely to back off into a corner. I figure smaller doses of effective networking are better than stressed and worried and wanting to hide networking for longer.

      1. allathian*

        When I first started my current career and went to a conference, I decided I’d talk to at least one new person every day. It started getting easier after the second or third conference when I had more familiar faces to catch up with.

    10. Clisby*

      Agreed. When I’ve been to conferences with co-workers it wasn’t unusual for us to meet up for breakfast before the conference proceedings started, but then we went our separate ways.

    11. Cheshire Cat*

      Pre-pandemic, my company used to send 8-10 people to the big conferences in our field, some to work at the booth but some for professional development. We were told that we should sit no more than 2 to a table for the lunches we attended, and were expected to fan out for the presentations. Maybe your company needs a rule like this? As an introvert, I wouldn’t want to sit at a table for lunch and find out that I was the only “non-company” person sitting there.

  5. SamiSalami*

    OP #5: At a previous job, I kept a similar notebook. I had also stuffed in kind notes and letters from colleagues and parents (I was a teacher).
    There were plenty of random personal/professional notes, ideas, questions, concerns, etc., etc., etc.
    If I wasn’t actively using it, I tossed it back in my bag and, of course, I took my bag home with me every night.
    It wasn’t a secret, but I definitely knew that most of my colleagues had no clue about it.
    TBH, I’d venture to say having one is pretty common – especially amongst teachers.

    1. Education Mic*

      I have one too. It would never even occur to me that my employer would try to take it, and I cannot imagine any health employer that would want to keep your journal of how you deal with procrastination or managed interactions with Rude Bob from HR or whatever. If my work somehow found out about it and tried to claim it when I left I would say it was a personal journal. The line is pretty thin, and they’d have to read it to know. What are they going to do? Demand to read your private journal because they know you brought it into work sometimes?

      Unless you really actively put yourself in a position for it to happen, I don’t think your work taking your journal is going to be an issue OP.

    2. Nesprin*

      FYI lab books are the exception to this rule.
      If you’re a researcher, lab worker or engineer, your lab book is almost always property of your employer- it’s written into my contracts that my lab books are not my property and maintaining them correctly is part of my job.

  6. nnn*

    #5: nothing you’ve described seems in any way weird to me, but if you’re feeling weird about it, you could try mentally reframing it from “personal journal” to “notebook”. Nothing weird about having a notebook in your bag!

    If, for some bizarre reason, someone at work expressed interest in seeing your notes, you could frame it as “Oh, this is just where I jot down random things so I don’t forget. It’s incohesive and interspersed with a bunch of personal notes, and won’t make sense to any other human being. Give me a moment and I’ll type up something you’ll actually be able to use.”

    1. I Have RBF*

      Yeah, when I carried one I’d put snark about work and reminders to pick up groceries in mine, plus actual reminders like “TPS report due at print shop Monday” type of thing. No IP secrets.

  7. Allonge*

    LW5 – as a manager, my two concerns with what you are describing would be:

    – how do I make our relationship so that you are comfortable sharing the outcomes of your reflections with me when it gets to the level that it needs support / approval etc. from the company?

    – how much time are you spending on this at work. To be clear, there is no problem spending time on this – in fact I would be delighted to hear that my team does it – but as always, there are limits due to work.

    Otherwise? Go ahead. In a way the ‘is this the property of the company’ aspect makes little sense – as the reflections are most likely only valuable to you personally, the company has no interest in claiming them, and any reasonably sane manager will not devote time to getting them. Go and try it!

    1. Cats and dogs*

      It’s seems one idea could be to just jot a few notes at work and fill in the reflections at home. This way it is not really work product and also not using up work time to write it.

  8. Irish Teacher.*

    LW1, just wanted to say don’t beat yourself up. There’s a very good chance that Anna would have made the same decision even if you did warn her. I think when I was a new grad, I’d both have felt “you have to take what you can get when starting out” and that people have different experiences with managers anyway and mine might be different from others, especially ones I was hearing about second-hand.

    Not to say you shouldn’t have told her. I think Alison’s script is great. Just that there’s no need to blame yourself for how things turned out. It might have helped if she’d had a warning or it might not.

    1. LaminarFlow*

      Totally agree. I have 2 former managers who are very divisive. When they identify someone as smart, capable, resourceful, etc., they are that person’s champion & cheerleader forever. However, if they determine that someone is slower to catch on or can’t read minds, they are unnecessarily hard on that person. Thankfully, I’m in the former category of subordinates who have been under both of their leadership. They are both amazing forces to have behind me.

      But, I’m also not going to dissuade someone from working with either person if they want to and have the opportunity – I don’t think I have that power anyway. I’ve passed along comments like “She’s a tough manager, and she hates XYZ. Also, she loves ABC.” And they can do what they want with that information. Some have flourished, and some have floundered.

      1. Blue Pen*

        Yes, I agree with this. I will absolutely send someone running for the hills if I know that the manager in question is a catastrophe to work for; but if it’s more a matter of “this person is this specific way and expects these specific things from their charge,” then it’s a lot more nuanced.

        I ended up working with a manager who many colleagues hated working with. This manager wasn’t bad or mean; in fact, they actually had a great personality. But in the workplace, they were *so* disorganized and flouted the rules and felt entitled to your time beyond measure that they burned a lot of bridges with colleagues. No one wanted to work with this person, and anytime someone needed to communicate with them, they went through me first. And as much as I knew that situation was unsustainable, to this day, people call me “the [that manager’s name] whisperer.”

        Would I recommend that person to other people? In general, no. But if you have a certain personality or skill set or way of maneuvering in an office setting, then yeah, I think you could’ve found a way to make it work if it was worth it to you.

  9. LisaA*

    About the “journal”: anytime you bring to work can always be seen/taken by others, like your lunch. Keep it extremely professional. Take care to keep it work-related.

    I recently read a blurb from Reddit on sometime who left it out, and her colleague read it. She had written comments about other colleagues that were not meant to be insulting but impactful on her self-growth. That’s not how her entries were seen. This caused an uproar.

  10. Moose*

    LW5: if you work in government, a journal like you describe could fall under FOIA. Just remember that when you’re writing it.

    1. bamcheeks*

      Yeah, I was thinking that! In GDPR land, if you’d written anything about a colleague or a report that included their name, initial, a nickname you’d made up if anything else, and they made a subject access request, my understanding is that you have to send a copy of it. You’re probably not under GDPR, but if you do any kind of work where disclosure, FOIA etc might be in play, “this is just personal notes [about how I handled a direct report’s medical issue and what I could have done differently]” probably won’t cut it.

      1. Allonge*

        As always, any legal issue is ‘it depends’ but anonymization will solve a lot of the GDPR concerns. If the data subject is not identifiable (like, legit not identifiable), the rules are much lighter.

        Fair point though: do NOT put detail about people’s medical conditions (or sensitive info in general) in official or unofficial work journalling. Most likely the specifics are irrelevant to OP’s professional development in any case.

      3. allathian*

        I’m also in GDPR land, and we had a presentation on this just yesterday. Information requests by the public only apply to official decisions and potentially meeting minutes. Personal notes are specifically excluded.

    3. Snow Globe*

      Along the same lines, even outside of government, be careful not to put any identifying information about customers in your notebook, especially if you are taking it home. I keep a notebook at work , but nothing that would be an information risk ever goes in it.

      1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        I would also say to be discreet about the notebook because if ever someone saw you writing stuff in it at your desk then taking it home they might think you’re stealing information.

    4. Random thoughts*

      “I’m thinking of notes or reflections on one’s own performance, written in a paper notebook bought with personal funds but on the subject of work, e.g. self-determined goals, how to improve job performance or satisfaction, and so on.”

      This sounds like a diary or a journal that you co-workers do not have to know exist.

      Is the issue that LW has informed coworkers of the existence of this notebook?

    5. Another Kristin*

      If you work in a creative field and copyright of, for example, a character becomes disputed, a dated notebook could prove or disprove a claim that you own or do not own the property. This was an issue with Jim Starlin (the artist who created Thanos) – Marvel claimed the character was a work product and he was able to prove that he’d created the character as a college student based on his old notebooks.

      In a more pedestrian environment like I assume the OP is in, I can’t imagine anyone would care what you wrote in a personal diary/notebook, unless your company gets involved in a massive scandal or lawsuit and it becomes evidence, and even then someone would have to KNOW that you wrote a journal at/about work for it to even come up. I wouldn’t worry about it, I’d just be careful that you don’t leave your journal open in the breakroom on the page that starts “So you won’t believe what THAT BITCH Jane said”.

    6. Annalee*

      This, and also discovery during lawsuits–but the risk is generally manageable so long as you’re aware of it.

      I use a bullet journal at work and enough colleagues asked me about the process that I wrote a slide deck on it. One of the slides is basically “don’t put anything in your work notebook that you wouldn’t want to read out loud in a deposition.”

      For the most part if it’s personal reflections on your performance and work goals, then things like GDPR, FOIA, legal discovery, etc are unlikely to come up. But do be aware that there’s a chance your own employer’s lawyers may need to review your notebook to make the determination that the contents aren’t germane.

      Personally, I keep two separate notebooks: one for my personal life and one for work. Work goals and tasks go in the work notebook. Anything that belongs in the “inner world” you’ve described goes in my personal notebook. I carry both at work because I am still a human with a personal life during work hours, and if I remember I need to buy a gift for someone then I want to be able to capture that on the go. But I keep details about what I’m working on and all work product in the work notebook.

      So for example my work notebook might have a goal to respond to all doc reviews requests in two business days. I might even list out docs that need review this week. If I have feelings about how doc review will impact my career goals, those go in my personal notebook–but details about what I am reviewing do not.

      Juggling two notebooks can be annoying at times, but it’s worth it for the peace of mind of knowing that I can more easily lock the door between my work life and my personal business.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        ^Came here to say something along these lines. If you’re doing anything with personal reflection along the lines of “I really struggled to find focus and kept procrastinating on starting Project X, was something going on today? I didn’t eat lunch, maybe that is why? Or, was it because I didn’t really know exactly what the steps needed were?” I uhhh would a) keep any work task info non-identifiable and then b) not let anyone at the office know you have this notebook – keep it at home or be very discreet. And absolutely don’t put it on a computer unless you WANT lawyers and potentially colleagues reading through your notes about how your anxiety got you sweaty in that one meeting. I’ve seen some wild things people put in writing come up in discovery – some of which does in fact get shown in court. (There’s a Designing Women episode that touches on this btw! The Fashionable One has a personal journal that proves some fact she needs for court…but that also means she will need to accept the attorney reading her daily weight log in court as that is also on the relevant page. It’s a struggle for the character…and a strong reminder to keep Personal separate from Work, or at least anything that might be embarrassing in court [I don’t care if my flight confirms go to my work email but am careful to keep medical stuff far away etc.])

  11. Nodramalama*

    LW4 is so funny to me because at a conference I intend to talk to only people I already know so staying in a clump sounds perfect to me. That said if you’re one of those people who actually enjoys networking, yes, splitting off is better.

    Lw5 assume that any record you make of anything at work, your employer will be able to see if they want, or need to. And there may genuinely be times they need to (e.g freedom of information)

  12. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

    Re No 2: I think your partner should also be weighing the possibility of blowback if this comes out in another way and it’s revealed he was aware of the scam and said nothing.

    I can’t speak for all sectors, but in my industry, that awareness with no followup would torpedo his reputation.

    1. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

      Not to mention someone like Hank sounds unscrupulous enough that if there is a scandal, he’d be willing to try and use your husband’s name to try and downplay the severity of his actions; and if your husband didn’t say anything, that will increase the likelihood he is tarred with that same brush..

    2. M*

      Came here to say this. If I were the university and I found this out – which seems likely, since scammed students tend to complain! – I’d immediately look at who was brought in to teach, and want to know what they knew.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        And the longer it carries on, the more likely that scammed students start to compare notes and realize “Wait. This wasn’t just me making a dumb mistake. This is someone systematically scamming a whole bunch of us, and using the university to do it.”

  13. Kate, short for Bob*

    LW5 – why not stick a poem in the front and intersperse with shopping lists and to dos? Then if anyone asks what you’re writing, you’re just capturing a thought before it goes so you can concentrate better on the work task at hand.

    You shouldn’t really be journalling-journalling at work anyway so that sort of quick capture “I should have been more proactive about nickname not dusting her llama” might be less likely to pose an ethical problem in the future?

  14. Longtime Lurker*

    LW 5 — I kept a notebook at a previous job where I had to do a lot of historical research and occasionally learn a new alphabet so I could decode/translate things. It was full of notes and research and processes to help me with those alphabets. I kept it on my desk but I don’t think my coworkers/supervisor ever noticed or would have cared that it was technically related to the business. I scooped it up along with my potted plants and snacks when I left and no one gave a hoot or has ever asked me about it. Just to give you some peace of mind!

    1. Tea Monk*

      Yes, I carry a journal around all the time because it’s easier to write down verbal instructions and to do lists than it is to insist I really will remember this time! and no one cares since everyone else just uses a planner to do this ( somehow having a blank page is easier for me)

  15. Danielle*

    #1 Difficult potential boss: it would have been a great service to both warn Anna with specifics and then offer advice if she wished. My current job has quite a few “lumps” but it helped immensely that, during the interview process, multiple people informed me of them. It allowed me to set my expectations properly. Especially for the bad boss + first full time job combo! Advance notice could have helped Anna avoid doubting herself and wondering if it was normal — the two aspects of having a lousy boss that I think is the worst for you.

    1. learnedthehardway*

      Agreeing. I know that it’s sometimes difficult to tell people something negative about someone else, especially when you don’t know them well and cannot rely on their discretion. That said, if the person is going to be significantly affected by the problem person, a heads up is the way to go. They can make their own decision about whether or not to work with the person, but knowing what the person is all about will make a significant difference to their success in the role, as well as to their mental health, and that is not only good for the individual, but it’s also good for the company.

      You don’t even have to make value judgements about the manager – just say they are known for doing x, y, and z. If that happens, come and see me for suggestions about how to handle it.

      1. Qwerty*

        I feel like the only honest choices would have been to give Anna a heads up or decline to give any advice. Withholding relevant information effectively served as an endorsement because there’s an obvious expectation when someone asks for advice on whether to take a job that the advice-giver will flag any major issues.

  16. Jellyfish Catcher*

    #3:
    Here would be my thoughts, if you had asked to meet my daughter. This applies if you were male or female.
    First, I don’t know you. We’ve not even begun to work together. I would be introducing basically a stranger to my daughter and that’s a nope. I would want to know you at work first and that takes some time.

    Second, it’s a boundary push, going from “we hit it off” to asking for an introduction to my family. Yes, you are new to the area, which is hard, I sympathize.
    Get to know your job and coworkers and organically relationships will develop with them.

    Third, you are new. Prove yourself at work, and understand that your coworker might not want to risk enmeshing a work relationship with both a personal relationship AND a family member relationship.
    It will smooth out – take your time, you can do this.

    3

    2. Armchair Analyst*

      This. It sounded friendly and insecure / desperate at first. Then it gave creepy vibes. Proceed with caution, at best

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      I think at most, after OP has started working there (and assuming things continue friendly with this coworker) ask her for advice on meeting people in your new city. You have to be socially ept to pull this off–like you would be open to hearing about some local arts organizations, and are in no way angling to be invited to dinner.

      Building relationships rests on people wanting a similar level of warmth/formality/frequency/etc at any given point in time. You want to be proposing one step up to build on that, not a leap across eight intervening levels of warmth because you really need a best man by May. (I believe this was a movie.)

      1. MsM*

        It’s also important for OP to keep in mind that no matter how good a rapport she establishes with the coworker, she doesn’t know the dynamic between Beth and Jane, particularly when it comes to how inclined Jane is to follow up on a friend recommendation from Beth. I love my mom, but I don’t think she has a great sense of what I’m looking for socially, and I’d be really nervous about letting her set me up with her coworker in case it didn’t go well.

    4. E of C*

      Eh…I think it’s reasonable to say “hey, if [kid with similar interests] is interested, here is my contact info!” And the parent can do with that what they will. If they really think their kid might be interested, great! If not, no harm no foul. I don’t think it’s boundary-pushing to ask to pass along contact info to another adult.

      So basically I just agree with what Alison said.

    5. Morning Reader*

      “Do I need to wait until I’ve been at the new site for a while and have more of a relationship with Beth?”

      Yes.

      LW3, you don’t say what age or gender (or relationship status or orientation) you are so I’m not sure how to interpret “befriend” here. In any case, since you are relatively new to the city and coworker Beth and her daughter seem to be more familiar with the place, you could ask Beth, while you’re working with her, where the happening places are for people your age. Or if there was something specific, hobby or activity, that she mentions in regard to her daughter, that you have in common with the daughter, ask about that. Ask her to ask her daughter for recommendations. That way you’ll find your people at the brewery/art center/gaming group/ hiking group/softball team/llama robot building place or whatever, whether or not you ever run into Beth’s daughter.

      1. Morning Reader*

        P.S. I’m pretty sure I always describe my adult daughter in a way that would make anyone want to meet her. It’s a mom’s shiny happy perspective. My daughter is smart, talented, beautiful, accomplished, environmentally aware, politically active, loves dogs, has fabulous taste, etc etc. Did I mention she can bake a cherry pie?
        To the point, a few grains of salt might mitigate your disappointment if you don’t meet this woman. Or if you do.

        1. Observer*

          To the point, a few grains of salt might mitigate your disappointment if you don’t meet this woman. Or if you do.

          LOL!

          True. LW, you don’t know *anywhere* near enough to know whether you want to get to know this young woman. All of the advice you are getting to let things develop (or not) more organically is sound.

      2. bamcheeks*

        You could also do it the other way around– “Your daughter’s moving to [my suburb]? Oh, tell her to get in touch if she wants cafe or gym recommendations! Always happy to meet new people moving to this area!” Then the ball is in their court if they want to connect.

        1. londonedit*

          This is what I was going to suggest. I think definitely wait until you’ve built up a bit more of a rapport with Beth, spend a bit of time showing a general sort of interest in news about her daughter, and then say ‘Oh, if she ever wants recommendations for [suburb], tell her to get in touch! Happy to show her round or meet for a coffee!’ or whatever. I think it’s definitely better to put the ball into her court rather than risking making her feel like she’s being pressured to go out with some random person she’s never met before.

    6. learnedthehardway*

      Completely agreeing. OP should NOT request an invitation to meet the coworker’s daughter.

      Not only is the OP not a known quantity to Beth, but even if they were someone Beth knew and trusted, Beth may very much NOT want to have her work life spill over into her personal life.

    7. M*

      I’ll also just add here that – it’s not clear OP3 *would* be new to the area. They describe the move as moving “to the site closer to home”, so at a minimum, they’re moving closer to their support network after six months further away. Which, lots of sympathy for how isolating two big moves in a year can be, but as you say – they need to pump the breaks on their enthusiasm and pace here, if they want to build good reciprocal relationships.

      What OP3 *can* do is ask Beth if Jane has any recommendations for hobby groups and/or local resources in their shared interest areas. (e.g. if they both play the same sport, places to join a casual team; if they both knit, good local yarn stores). Low-stakes, impersonal, and if Jane wants to follow up by suggesting they connect to swap recommendations, that makes it *her* move.

  17. The esteemed governor*

    I don’t think there are any best practices that apply to all conferences, or all attendees. Plus, it sounds like your colleagues did network during the breaks and after hours events, which at some events is when the main networking takes place anyway.

    So I’d say you do what you want, and let your colleagues do what they want.

  18. jelli*

    #5 I had a similar book at an old job. Wrote in it every day. Started it when hired as a way to learn the job and people. When I left, my boss offered me a bonus if I turned it over.

    2. Survivor*

      How much was the bonus? I just trashed my old notebook when I left my last job. It was filled with minute step by step reminders and basically functions as my working memory on some days. :) Not very useful to anyone else.

      1. jelli*

        Another weeks paycheck if I remember correctly. Mine was the same! I don’t know why she wanted it other than maybe to train someone new?

  19. Blue Pen*

    #1 — I agree with Allison’s advice. Say what you can to motivate Anna to dig so that she can make the most informed decision for herself, but I wouldn’t go much further than that.

    Generally speaking, unless I know the manager to be a down-and-out *nightmare* to work for, I would probably say nothing more than “oh, I’ve heard they can be pretty tricky,” or “they might be a better professional fit for someone with X personality,” and leave it at that. Not that Anna has to suffer in her profession, and a big point of networking is to leverage your resources and have as big a bird-eye view as possible, but this is also part of the working world. She has to learn this is not the first time she’s going to come across difficult coworkers (or clients) and how to prevail.

  20. Delta Delta*

    #4 – I’m a lawyer and so sometimes I have to go to lawyer conferences. There’s one my state bar puts on that is pretty popular (fun location not far away), and there’s always a ton of outreach to try to get law students to attend. 1) great networking for them if they want to stay in our state and look for work and 2) so potential employers also get to meet them. Law students get to attend for free, so there is nothing out of pocket for them for this conference. Without fail, every year a handful of law students show up, and they all huddle and clump together. They don’t interact with the lawyers at all. I’ve been present and have tried to talk to some of them and they don’t interact. Then they complain that they had no networking opportunities. I get it that it can be awkward, but the whole point of this particular piece is the networking.

    Before anyone comes at me that networking is terrible and people shouldn’t be forced to socialize or whatever, the law school career services offices market this to the students as a good way to network with established lawyers. (And for better or worse, the profession does networking. It’s just part of it)

    1. boof*

      Yes – a lot of people go to conferences for a lot of reasons, some are there specifically to work booths but outside of that now many of the big conferences are telecast. To go through the expense and hassle of coming in person and then not run around and meet other people seems to defeat most of the point of going to me.
      — I’m a doctor, I don’t “force” networking but the whole fun/benefit of conferences for me are to do things like go to the poster and talk to the presenter about details on (research, drug, trial, whatever); to meet with other people who deal with the [rare] conditions I do and ask what advances they’re interested in, what trials they have, or talk about mutual shared patients who have done consults at other places; etc etc. There’s lots to talk about when you have a niche interest in common. Plus for my job at least we need several external references to advance; so it helps with that. And then if I get a rare case that I want to double check thoughts on, or that I know so and so just did a research presentation on, I have people to reach out to.
      Also, I think of myself an an introvert XD But I still like to talk about things I’m excited about/interested in!

    2. fhqwhgads*

      You’re totally right. If the point of the even is the networking opportunities, and people clump, they’re not networking and they’re making themselves miss the networking opportunity. And if they don’t like networking or don’t want to do it, that’s a-ok but then don’t bother going.

      1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        At a conference I regularly attend, students get a special colour badge so others will notice that they are students and will take time out to chat with them. The students absolutely do not clump together! There are several round tables and sessions with few attendees where everyone is encouraged to introduce themselves, students can then reintroduce themselves later “we were in the llama grooming session together, I really loved your take on llama whispering to help them get to grips with being groomed”.

  21. Lacey*

    LW5: I’m a big note-taker myself and I often have multiple notebooks filled with general industry related notes & my own research (which is done of a mix of personal and company time, because I love my field).

    No one has ever even seemed interested in having me leave it behind.

    Part of that might be that these are always notebooks I’ve clearly bought myself. So while some of the info in them was gathered for work purposes and on company time, it’s obviously my notebook.

    But, I think it’s mostly that they would never have read it anyway. I’ve seen other people transition out – people don’t even read the documentation they leave behind officially.

    1. Longtime Lurker*

      Yes! While it’s good to acknowledge that technically someone might try to lay claim to it, the odds are just so, so low that that would actually happen for a personal notebook like what you describe that I don’t think the LW needs to be concerned.

  22. Sutemi*

    I keep a notebook at work, but it always ends up having some company confidential info. Biotech, so target names, meeting notes with scientific questions or insights, vendor info, etc. Based on keeping this info confidential I’ve always tossed the notebook into the shredder bin before I left.

    If there was non-confidential info I wanted to keep I would copy it over before shredding.

  23. el l*

    OP4:
    16 coworkers sat together? That pretty much rules out anyone external approaching them.

    More understandable that 2 or maybe 3 would sit together – others wouldn’t find that as tough IME.

    If this really is just bonding time, and everyone understands that, fine. But every conference I’ve ever been to, we’re supposed to at least pay lip service to connecting outside the company.

    1. Survivor*

      One of the worst conference experiences of my life was filled with people like this. I’d sit at a table with other people and try to make normal small talk and they’d turn and look at me blankly like “why are you talking to me?”. I had gotten a promotion to a business development role, and I was supposed to be at this conference to network (at a company that was very stingy about letting anyone attend conferences, even though everyone was supposed to be a seller doer). The coworker who was also attending kept literally shooing me away (as in making shooing motions with his hands telling me to “go mingle”) whenever I tried to get him to introduce me to clients he was talking to. I ended up sitting with other consultants because no one would talk to them either. I’m glad to just be a doer now and I can actually enjoy talking shop with colleagues at my preferred conferences again. :)

  24. ecnaseener*

    LW1, just one other piece of this to pay attention to: you “thought she was mature enough to make her own decision,” so you didn’t tell her information relevant to that decision. You skipped a step in your reasoning there — “mature” doesn’t substitute for “informed!”

    1. Elastic*

      Yes — and informing her doesn’t diminish her decision, it strengthens it!

      It’s thoughtful and kind to want to avoid prejudicing her against her potential boss, but that doesn’t have to mean strict neutrality.

    2. Baunilha*

      Good point! And it’s also a contradiction: if Anna was mature enough to make her own decision, that’s one more reason to tell her and trust she would make the right call with the information she had.

    3. DJ Abbott*

      When I was young, I had a heck of a time with people assuming I knew/ understood things I didn’t know/understand.
      I was not very mature, but I am very smart. They probably thought I was smart enough to know/understand these things, like the indications the new manager coming in is a bad boss, or subtle hints about the red flags of a potential job.
      But it’s not about being smart or mature. It’s about having the experience to recognize indications when no one is actually coming out and saying it. It would have helped so much if someone had been honest and clear, and even more if someone had sat me down and explained how to discern these things.

      1. metadata minion*

        Oh, gosh, this! And there are so many different kinds of “smart”. I tend to pick up things quickly, I’m generally curious and creative, and I get along well with people…partly because I will not pick up on office drama unless it’s extremely blatant and so I skip along happily through social minefields until something explodes that I didn’t realize was explody.

        Because of that I’ve taken on the role of explaining to new people that while I will absolutely back them up if they want to poke that particular bear, they seem like they might not realize that there’s a bear and should know about it before they go any further.

  25. HR Exec Popping In*

    LW5: Keeping a work notebook is very normal. And I’ve never experienced a situation at a corporation when the company has attempted to “claim” the contents. Now, if you work is highly confidential and your work includes working on proprietary material that would change things. But just notes and your own personal musing about work related items generally would not be of any interest. I wouldn’t over think this if you have a typical job (ie, not a scientist, working in M&A, etc).

  26. HR Exec Popping In*

    LW1, one thing to consider is you may have also damaged your own reputation by not giving the intern a heads up. If I thought my previous manager knew I was joining a toxic work team and didn’t give me a heads up, I would likely not trust their judgement and transparency going forward. As has been stated, that doesn’t mean you should have bad mouthed the team, but I believe at a minimum you owe your team members advice on how to be success in their new role working with different people. Sharing how to do that would have given your intern some insight into the team she was joining.

    1. fhqwhgads*

      I don’t think it’s that straightforward. The part of the letter that really stood out to me was the desire not to poison the well. It sounds like OP thought the manager was not the greatest, but also explicitly thought they were NOT toxic. I do understand it turned out way worse, but I think this is more of a hindsight thing than folks are giving OP credit for. It seems reasonable to me if you know/your perception of a colleague is “less than great but not terrible” you’d want to let the intern form her own opinion. Who knows? Maybe whatever it was that bugged others isn’t that big a deal to the intern? So not wanting to start this person off thinking poorly based on second-hand or third-hand info seems fair. If they had objective facts, absolutely should’ve passed them along so the intern could decide for herself. But if the jist of it was “some people don’t like working for X” that’s not productive to pass on without concrete examples of why.

      1. Blue Pen*

        Exactly — and also:

        Who knows? Maybe whatever it was that bugged others isn’t that big a deal to the intern?

        Or whatever shortcomings the manager previously had may have been addressed by now to the point they’re not an issue anymore.

        I understand the sentiment to want to look out for those coming up behind you. I really do, and I wish there were more people in the world who did this. But I’ve also been in the workforce long enough to know that it’s not always so straightforward. I think it’s fine to say something like, “oh, I’ve heard that person can be tricky to work for,” but then it’s on Anna to dig more if she wants to and determine if that move is the right move for her. And assuming the manager in question wasn’t Objectively Horrific, the OP is not Anna’s parent.

        It also makes me wonder if the OP is in an environment where, if it somehow came out that they spoke poorly of a peer, there would be professional consequences for that.

        I just think the OP is taking a little more heat than might be deserved here. Was there a better way to handle this? Probably. But I don’t think the OP should consider themselves fully responsible for Anna’s situation, either. Anna is an adult now, and she is going to have to learn how to navigate unpleasant work situations.

    2. Generic Name*

      But as an HR exec, do you really want your company’s managers warning good candidates away from your company/spilling the tea about bad management?

      1. Observer*

        As an HR exec you should be more worried about the simple fact that a manager feels the need to do so. Keep in mind that employees leave and often feel free to talk. And sometimes they talk even before they leave, just not *directly* to good candidates.

        And that’s aside from the fact that managers like that are not only a human problem, they do wind up being bad for business. Not just in that good people won’t stay with them, but in that such managers do not get the best out of their people and / or expose their company to liability of various sorts.

      2. A. Lab Rabbit*

        “warning away?”

        There’s a huge difference between saying “Manager X has a reputation among some people for being difficult, so you may want to talk to some people who work for them to get their perspective” and saying “Manager X is an absolute nightmare and I would avoid taking this job if I were you”. This was specifically called out in the response.

      3. Qwerty*

        The only HR exec that had a problem with me being honest was someone who broke employment laws and regularly lied to candidates to get them to accept positions.

        Candidates appreciate getting both the positives and negatives about a position. Feeling like they know and understand what they are getting into usually results in less skeptical negotiations. My transparency has been cited by people as why they accepted the offer or staying in our longer/harder interview process (back in the bubble when people were used to going from application to offer in <3days and ours took 2 weeks)

        HR tends to be reactive and it can be hard for a bad manager to get noticed enough for people to do something about it. Losing a couple good candidates is less costly than losing a couple current employees, and HR is going to listen to a returning intern's concern about a future manager's reputation more than a generic candidate with no association to the company.

        If there is as much internal mobility as OP says, it gets even easier because HR could work towards changing Anna's offer to a different team or putting in writing that she'd be eligible for a team transfer immediately.

  27. The esteemed governor*

    I think #1 could have mentioned something about the manager, but didn’t Anna herself interview with him? If she got a weird or negative vibe from him, doesn’t sound like she mentioned it to anyone, so I think LW isn’t to blame for anything here.

    Besides, in the original assessment LW thought he just had horrible people skills- that sucks but not uncommon among managers unfortunately.

    Overall I think LW shouldn’t beat themselves up over this

  28. Jo*

    #4. Networking is as important, if not more, than the educational piece of a conference. Those who don’t and spend the whole time with their co-workers waste a valuable opportunity and may come off looking as cliquish.

    My company actually had a policy that we reminded employees of before every major conference: If you approach a table where two co-workers are already sitting, find another (if possible). For meals and breaks, this was especially true. But also sessions. Ideally, there should be no more than 3 company personnel sitting together – even better, no more than 2. (Most tables at our events were set 6 people per table. So that’s half a table at most.)

    There were a few exceptions to that. For instance one of the 4 nights with dinner-on-your-own, we’d have a company night where everyone was encouraged to dine as a group. And if an industry session was LED by our team, then naturally we’d tend to group together in presenting it.

    1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

      Can you explain what the value of networking for the company is? It’s a take on conferences that I haven’t really considered before. Generally my understanding of networking has been X new contacts means X potential leads in my next job search, but obviously that doesn’t particularly benefit the company.

      1. Qwerty*

        Flip that same formula. X new contacts means X potential candidates next time your company has a position open.

        It helps the company’s reputation for people to see that analysts at Llama Corp are capable, helpful, and friendly (aka, people you’d want to work alongside) as well as happy in their jobs.

        The bigger part is the casual knowledge sharing. Maybe someone will recommend a good online resource to help you when you get suck, a helpful book to read, a class or tutorial to improve or learn a skill. Maybe you’ll find out other analysts are struggling with some of the same things as you so you all swap strategies. Or maybe other people have solved some of the obstacles you run into and can tell you how to handle them. All of these improve your performance, which is a win for the company.

        An example from a more local setting than a conference – a couple years ago I was working creating an AI tool from scratch for a project that was going to take my team of 2-3 several months to make. Usual responses were for people to nerd out about the cool factor. One guy said “oh, Microsoft just released X that will do most of that for you”. Made my life soooo much easier and eliminated 4+ months of upcoming work, allowing me to do more interesting things.

        1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

          Got it. Sounds like there’s value for some companies in their folks networking, but my company probably not so much…

          1. metadata minion*

            Yeah, I suspect this is very industry- and company-dependent. I’m in libraries, where there’s some confidential information, but general “how to do X” is almost never proprietary and it’s completely normal for people at conferences, on listservs, etc., to go “hey, does anyone have a good solution for X?” and have 10 people sending over their library’s documentation, bits of code, etc.

  29. EA*

    On the networking question: the key here is a huge difference between sitting with one or two other coworkers, and a large group of 16. Your question was about best practice – and it’s definitely best practice to socialize with other conference attendees. For people who are shy or feel awkward, I think it’s fine to stick with ONE coworker… but certainly not a huge group. Continue your strategy, OP!

  30. Dinwar*

    #5: I’m in the same boat–I’ve found that reflecting on paper helps, as well as having notes I can go back to (memory isn’t perfect, after all). But I have had notebooks subpoenaed in the past. That said, it’s REALLY rare. Those were projects where Homeland Security was involved, and pretty much everyone was suing everyone else, and EVERYTHING got called into court. If you wrote a person’s name on a napkin that napkin was expected to be included (not joking). Usually what happens is that everyone ignores the notebooks; personal notes like that are absolutely normal in business, after all, and widely recognized as being incredibly personal.

    I tend not to worry about it too much. I keep the notebook mostly focused on work, but I include personal scheduling stuff like the kids’ dentist appointments or other things that will impact my schedule (so I don’t commit myself to a trip that would interfere with the family obligations). If someone is going to object to that sort of thing….well, I figure that means they’re already looking for excuses to fire me, and if it’s not this they’ll just find something else. I am curious as to how a court would take some of my notes….I made a constructed language when I was younger and use some of the concepts there in my note-taking, like the numbering system (instead of Arabic numerals that we usually use), and I use random words in my language because they’re quicker to write and convey the same info to me. Since this book isn’t intended to be read by anyone but me I make it make sense to me. But a lawyer may have fun with it.

  31. EventPlannerGal*

    OP3 – my reaction regardless of your gender is basically ‘don’t do it’, or at least ‘don’t do it yet’, but I think this is a question where your gender really is relevant. If you’re a woman then it will still be pretty weird to ask for an intro to someone’s daughter when you’re brand new, but further down the line it might be okay. If you’re a guy it is just going to be SO much more loaded that I would just leave it alone completely. I mean, if you get to know Beth and at some point she’s like “wow, you just have so much in common with Jane, can I put you two in touch” then sure (although I wouldn’t rely on it going anywhere), but otherwise I’d just leave it alone. I am generalising here and I’m sure there are going to be many exceptions, but that’s my gut feeling.

  32. Zona the Great*

    Conferences can be so terrible and conference attendees can be very badly behaved. See the story I told last week about being propositioned for prostitution by someone well respected in the field. Enough experiences even half as bad as that and I’m not leaving my bubble if forced to attend the conference.

  33. Gudrid The Well-Traveled*

    How do you think a notebook be different from a paper planner/calendar or a bullet journal? Those I think are culturally understood to be multi-topic and include personal information and probably more invisible.

    1. Lenora Rose*

      I think because the thoughts are more likely to be complete and not just next-day’s planning? I have a notebook that is treated more like a day planner/scratch pad for phone calls/ meeting notes/other organization. It simultaneously can include deeply personal information depending on the call/meeting, and yet is entirely disposable; I pull out pages and toss them in shred-recycle all the time.

  34. Friday Thoughts?*

    Maybe this is a “Friday” topic, but I would love to hear (see?) how commenters decide what gender the LW or a bad behaving person is if no gender identifying information is provided.

    I feel like male is the default gender for a lot bad behavior described.

    2. Hroethvitnir*

      Personally, I tend to gender people on the internet as female by default unless specified otherwise (like, subconsciously, unless there’s a masculine archetype in play). Having re-read it with intent I would still lean straight woman myself.

      Straight men obfuscating looking for dates are certainly a thing, but it’s usually less subtle than that IME.

    3. Lenora Rose*

      Alison’s tradition used to be assume female unless there are pronouns in the original letter. I still use that often, but more often gender neutral. I also can’t help noticing how often someone referred to with the pronoun “they” in the original letter gets hit with gendered pronouns by the commentariat – often both genders by different comments.

      2. Lenora Rose*

        My immediate thought was the same as fhqwhgads: DEI. It has studied and demonstrated benefits, for the company not just for the new hires, and yet it’s often tokenized, or considered a sideline, or easy to strike out in budgeting, and now we have a whole pile of laws trying to push against its very existence.

  36. smol boi*

    LW5- I agree with Alison’s advice but you should be aware that notes in your notebook could be legally discoverable in the future. Likelihood is minimal, but if your employer was sued/involved in litigation, and you might have relevant info based on your position, lawyers will ask if you kept any contemporaneous notes and will have the right to ask you to turn them over (or for them to make photocopies.) You can definitely redact anything personal or not relevant to the litigation, but just an fyi.

  37. tina turner*

    #1 – I’d tell the intern that people have had trouble w/mgr.’s behavior but try to figure out if anyone does better w/them. And why.
    If they’re, say, a stickler for accuracy, maybe that can be a plus w/this good intern.
    If they’re disorganized, can she help them w/that?
    Sometimes competence can get around a tough mgr.

  38. Llama face!*

    LW #1- I think that poisoning the well is not an accurate way to think about giving all the relevant info to your intern. It’s actually more like letting your intern know the well they’re about to drink from has poison in it. If you had a chance to do-over or run into a similar situation? Then, yes, definitely do give them *all* the info, including the less appealing, and let them make an informed decision. Do all you can to avoid “hiding the poison that’s in the well”.

  39. It's Marie - Not Maria*

    I have warned new hires and transfers if a Manager or Supervisor is difficult to work with, along with suggestions on how to best work with that person. For example, for a Manager who has a track record of “forgetting” things, I would say: “Beth is super busy and sometimes forgets everything discussed in conversations. You may want to send her a recap email after you have spoken with her, to be sure you understand the direction you were given.” Or, for a Manager who doesn’t like to put things in writing: “Steve prefers to communicate by phone or in person. You may want to send an email to yourself after these conversations, so that you can remember what was discussed.” Both of these suggestions have been good tools I have used for Managers with “convenient” memories.

  40. Nah*

    As a nonbinary person myself that explicitly uses they/them, it can get extremely frustrating reading comments that do this (assign “must be a HE amirite!” or “OBVIOUSLY op is getting treated like this because she’s a WOMAN”) when the letter writer and Alison have specifically gone out of their way to use gender neutral language and names that typically don’t lean into any specific gender. :\

  41. CompanyOwned*

    OP5, these notes are absolutely owned by the company. Furthermore, at every place I’ve ever worked, you would be expected to leave these type of notes behind when you left even if the company just shredded them afterward. If someone else wanted a copy of notes you took at a particular meeting you’d be expected to share them. End of story.

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