what to do about a terrible workplace when you can’t leave, employee keeps writing in her pregnancy journal at work, and more

by Alison Green on January 23, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. What to do about a terrible workplace when you can’t leave

I know it’s often the case that the best thing to do in a terrible work setting is to start looking for another job. I’m wondering if you have any advice for circumstances where you really can’t do that, or at least aren’t willing to accept the consequences of doing so. I’m a PhD student in a psychology program. As part of the program we have to spend a certain amount of time providing services through our departmental clinic. This is non-optional for the program, so the only way around this is to drop out of the program. Within our field, PhD students cannot transfer programs — if you drop out, you start from scratch at a new program (assuming one will even accept you; it’s one of the most competitive fields of graduate study and dropping out of a program is looked on unfavorably). So, the consequences of leaving are very high and potentially career-ending.

Within this context, our clinic admin is a nightmare. She routinely screams, swears, yells, stomps around, and otherwise makes the clinic a tense and unpleasant environment. She interacts inappropriately with clients, yelling at them, recommending crystals instead of therapy, telling them to go home because they’ve arrived at the wrong time when in fact they’ve arrived at the correct time, and the list goes on.

The students have tried to push back. We bring up these incidents to the clinic co-directors. One student even coordinated collecting complaints in a unified document — it was five pages long, single-spaced. When presented to the clinic co-directors, the response was that not much could be done. Supposedly, the clinic has no hierarchy and the co-directors therefore have no authority over her (?!).

What are we missing? When a situation is this level of bad, what options are on the table that aren’t leaving?

Well … possibly none. If the co-directors report to anyone, you could go over their heads to whoever they report to. If that’s another person, that’s a more feasible option than if it’s a board of directors. (Going to a board isn’t completely off the table, but the bar for doing it is very high and often won’t work; boards frequently just don’t get involved in day-to-day management issues.) The other options are to (a) keep pushing with the co-directors, but it sounds like you’ve already been pushing and they are simply not going to act, (b) come up with some kind of leverage that will motivate them to act (such as credibly making it clear you’ll be steering other students away from the program), (c) bring in someone else who has influence (like someone high up in your program who isn’t part of the clinic, or someone in the university who has oversight over the program), (d) unionize, (e) accept it’s not going to change and find a way to be okay with working around the problems, or (f) leave, which you noted you can’t do. Most people in normal work contexts end up eventually choosing E or F. In your case, C is likely the best shot at changing things, and if that doesn’t work, you’re looking at E.

2. Employee keeps writing in her pregnancy journal at work

I work at a larger higher education institution in a department that manages many grant-funded projects. All of us working on these projects are in staff positions (not teaching faculty). One of my employees, Sansa, started several months ago and this is her first professional job since graduating. She is capable and I have no issues with her work overall.

Last week, she announced to the office (repeatedly) that she is pregnant. Of course I wish her well. But the issue is that she now walks around with a first-time mom pregnancy journal and pulls it out to write in. Continually. It has been about a week and I see this journal multiple times a day. I want to say something to her along the lines of, “I know you are excited about your pregnancy, but please save your journal for your personal time, such as lunch breaks or out of office time.” This is no different to me than say, doing homework on work time (which I have dealt with before in a similar way). I feel that since this is pregnancy-related, though, I am dipping into uncharted territory.

Do I say anything? Do I let this go? How do I approach her? My goal is to create a comfortable, low-distraction environment for staff and I am concerned this is going to turn in to a “thing.”

If she’s doing a good job and getting all her work done and the amount of time she’s spending on the journal is just a couple of minutes here and there, let it go — the same way you presumably would if she were spending a few minutes socializing in the kitchen or texting her spouse.

But if the amount of time she’s spending on it is excessive, then it’s reasonable to say something like: “I know you’re excited about the pregnancy, and I’m really happy for you. I’ve seen you writing in your pregnancy journal a lot during the day and I want to remind you to please save it for breaks or other non-work time — just like with anything else not work-related, like homework or social media.”

3. Interviewers want to know how I handle difficulties

I’m looking for a job again for the first time in many years and am running into a type of question in interviews that I haven’t encountered in the past. All the questions are some variation of “how do you handle it when you are experiencing difficulty?” and I’m confused how to answer because it seems like an obvious “I would discuss it with my manager.”

Some examples include:
“What do you do if you can’t find the answer when you’re working?”
“How do you handle it when you have a lot of work to do and can’t meet your deadlines?”
“How would we know you are struggling?”

That last one made me gape a little because it seems so obvious. I responded with, “I would tell you.”

Can you provide some insight on why they are asking this and what sort of answer they are looking for? For deadlines or research, I did try to expand on how I would approach it if my manager wasn’t available.

I’m concerned that I’m coming across as being unable to deal with problems on my own if my first thought is to ask my boss. However, that is how my prior bosses have wanted me to handle it. In my experience, my manager always wanted to know if I was running into roadblocks.

You’d be surprised by how many people’s answer to the last two questions isn’t “You would know because I would tell you.” It’s obvious to you, but it’s very much not obvious to everyone. Some people will answer, “I would stay late and find a way to get everything done,” or “I would prioritize on my own without looping anyone else in” (although they don’t say it like that) or all sorts of other things. So your answer to those is fine.

The question where I’d adjust a bit is “What do you do if you can’t find the answer when you’re working?” With that one, are there things you would do before you’d go to your manager — like reviewing documentation, googling, or looking at how similar problems have been solved in the past? I bet you do that stuff, and you’re assuming “when you can’t find the answer” means you’ve already tried those things, but spell out those steps too.

4. How to explain my boyfriend’s job when he has a trust fund and rarely works

I’ve been with my boyfriend for five years. He comes from a rich family and has access to a trust fund and he doesn’t work, aside from a few projects here and there. (For anonymity, let’s say they are llama grooming projects and I am also a llama groomer). The problem is that when I’m out socially — or at networking events — people constantly ask me what my partner does. Saying “he’s a llama groomer” isn’t really true or accurate, as I can’t name an employer or even any recent projects. I’ve tried to keep things vague and name jobs he’s had in the distant past, but people just keep asking questions. Is there a graceful way to answer this? It’s very frustrating and I constantly find myself making things up, which I don’t like to do. I don’t think he would want me telling people he has a trust fund, either.

Can you say, “He does freelance llama grooming”? If pressed for details about what he’s working on currently, you can say, “He’s pretty selective about what projects he takes on so nothing currently, but he tends to like work featuring X and Y.”

Also, why are people asking so many follow-up questions?! Maybe that’s normal in your field, but I’m surprised they’re pushing for so much info. (Is it an in-demand speciality where they might want to hire him? Or what do you think is behind it?)

The other option is to not mention his occasional llama grooming work at all and just answer with what he spends his time on: “He’s really into gardening and currently taking over our backyard with rutabaga and kohlrabi.”

5. How do I “do” FMLA as the healthy spouse?

We’ve just been told that my husband’s medical tests have found evidence of cancer. We don’t know what stage anything is in yet, and we don’t know what treatment or management might look like.

At what point do you request FMLA once you find out that your spouse has cancer? We only just found out, so we don’t yet know the severity or treatment plans. Is this something where I should go to HR right away, let them know the situation, and keep them updated as I know more? Or would it be better to wait until we have a clear idea of what’s going on and when I will need to be out of work?

I’ve never had to request FMLA before, so I don’t even know where to start or what the etiquette is … or even what it really means, other than “you go on FMLA when you have a baby or somebody in your immediate family is really sick and you need to help take care of them.”

How much detail do I have to give? Do I have to tell my supervisor first, and then she speaks to HR about it? Can I go straight to HR, bypassing my supervisor? Can telling my work what’s going on be used against me in any way?

As the healthy spouse, what can I really use FMLA for (accompanying them to medical appointments, staying home with them while they’re recovering from the effects of chemo)? If we get worst-case scenario news and the doctor gives them six months to live, can I use FMLA just to stay with them so we have every moment possible together?

I mostly want to cry and hold my spouse right now. I don’t want to have to explain to everybody what’s going on, especially as we don’t even really know yet and I will likely cry when I make the FMLA request. I just want my spouse to get better, and for the work aspect of my life to let me be with my partner as much as possible right now.

I’m so sorry and I hope you get news that’s as positive as possible, as quickly as possible.

FMLA is unpaid leave of up to 12 weeks per year that protects your job. You can be required to use up your paid leave as part of it; in other words, it’s not a separate bank of leave that kicks in after you’ve run through the rest of your leave. It’s basically 12 weeks of job protection while you’re out, which may or may not overlap with the paid leave your employer offers. You can use it for accompanying your spouse to appointments, transporting or caring for them during treatment, and other forms of care they need, including “psychological comfort.” More here.

Generally it makes sense to wait until you have more clarity on the situation and know what you want to ask for. If you have a good relationship with your boss, you can certainly let her know now what’s going on, but you don’t need to do that. It’s fine to wait until you have more specifics about the time you want to take, at least to start with. You can also go straight to HR if you prefer to start with them. Once you’re ready to officially request FMLA, HR will likely have forms for you to fill out. Legally your company cannot hold your use of FMLA against you; that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, but if you’re working with generally decent people, they are likely to simply want to ensure you get what you need.

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{ 421 comments }

{ 421 comments… read them below }

  1. Not my real name*

    A few years ago my husband was told that they believed his cancer had metastasized. The good news was that two months later we learned that they were wrong. I did mention it in passing to HR so I would understand my options. Before we got the good news I decided that once I ran out of PTO for the chemo we had been told to expect, I would retire. By the time we learned that he was fine, I had put a lot of thought into the decision to retire.

    1. Not my real name*

      First time commenter here. I didn’t realize that I couldn’t edit comments. I hope that this has a positive outcome for OP. I did indeed retire maybe six months later. I was getting my PTO on January 1 and wanted to get the days and use them.

      1. Hroethvitnir*

        Belated, but congratulations to your husband and you. <3 I hope you're enjoying retirement!

      2. LW #5*

        I’m so glad that they were wrong! Thank you for your message. I hope you and your husband are thriving.

  2. Consonance*

    1: Since this is a unit of your university, I’d very much be going to hr to alert them to the abusive work environment. It’s not a tiny organization, it’s a small unit inside of a behemoth, so use the behemoth.

    2: your tone makes me question how much of a problem this is. It’s really normal to be super excited in a first pregnancy and have it on your mind constantly. The degree to which it can take over your body and mind really can’t be overstated. If you’re seeing the journal several times a day, it could be as simple as jotting down a thought. Are you this nit picky if someone sends a text a couple times a day? Or is it actually taking up significant amounts of her workday?

    1. Certaintroublemaker*

      Definitely agree for LW1. Edit your group document to focus on the impact of the admin’s management on the student workers, and take it to the university’s HR department. Add all the reporting steps you’ve taken previously.

      In addition, I recommend escalating your original report and complaint to the dean of your college. The clinic is at risk of harm to the program’s reputation with prospective patients and students, as well as impact on accreditation.

        1. Lex Talionis*

          Or a hotline to the local newspaper. I’m a beneficiary of The Boston Globe Spotlight. Amazing how fast things move when people see their names in print. Above the fold!

          1. Crcala*

            Local newspaper and also campus newspaper. Campus newspapers can kick up a huge ruckus, depending on the university and how good the newspaper is. Especially if it’s framed focusing on students are getting bad therapeutic guidance by non-qualified staff (i.e. crystals), being told to leave when they have to leave appointments, etc.

            I would also look at who in the administration has pull that can champion your cause. People like the director of student success, dean of students, affinity group directors (i.e. director of LGBTQ+ center or Black students center). It’s their job to make sure students are experiencing a positive climate and treated well and can get help if need be. If they hear students are being treated badly at the clinic, they can also kick up a ruckus about that.

            Really, this is a PR issue. I bet that your Admissions office/the college highlights how they have an amazing psychology graduate program and they see students for free and doesn’t that show how great college is. If it gets out widely to students (and therefore potential applicants/families) that this is happening, it’s bad publicity for the college. And they don’t like bad publicity when it comes to student support/quality of life.

            (I’m a former university mental health director, FWIW).

            1. MigraineMonth*

              Posting on the top comment thread — the admin is finally gone! LW1 posted below with an update.

        2. Bumblebee*

          An ethics hotline is definitely a possibility! Anything reported there (at least at my state university) gets huge amounts of attention. Other avenues might include HR, your program professors, and any placement offices within your department/school/college. Finally, what actually gets results at most universities is undergraduate students and their parents complaining. So if you serve undergraduates, they need to bring it up and if possible their parents do as well.

      2. Kua*

        Definitely escalate this to the dean if the program co-directors don’t address it! I work at a university and some key questions that will help the dean decide whether this problem requires intervention are: Does this include a pattern of discrimination against a protected class (i.e., Title IX complaint if you’re in the US)? Are there instances where the admin’s behavior violates practice for handling patient records, maintaining confidentiality, or giving medical advice/clinical assistance without training or supervision (the crystals advice might qualify)? Does your program’s accrediting organization (most clinical programs have accreditation beyond the university’s general accreditation) require them to track student complaints and document how they were addressed? Many do, and if yours is one of them, it’s worth asking in writing why the program didn’t follow that process.

        It can be awkward to go outside your program as a grad student, but you are doing a huge favor to leadership by bringing it to their attention. Framing it as “I’m concerned the program will run into issues with accreditors and want to help solve things before we get any bad reports” can make it harder to dismiss the problem or accuse you of being unprofessional. You aren’t complaining, you’re flagging a problem so the program doesn’t lose ground!

        1. Guinea pig*

          Yes exactly! you’re trying to be helpful about the problematic admin! I would only add re
          student complaints that you’d like to see the record of complaints, rather than “why didn’t you do this”. That way if they have recorded your joint complaint, you don’t put their backs up by coming in accusing them of dereliction of duty.

        2. Came here to say this*

          Dean of a university unit with multiple clinics here. I would absolutely want to know about this and would work with the department chair to fix it. Yes, the clinic managers may have little authority over an admin, but the chair and dean do.

          1. Former associate chair of psychology*

            Talk to:
            Director of clinical training/director of graduate studies in your program
            Department chair
            Dean of your college (usually arts and sciences for psychology but ymmv)
            Dean of graduate programs (usually but not universally a second thing in universities with graduate programs)

            Assuming you’re in an APA accredited program, APA probably has resources, and the program may be more motivated by the threat of losing accreditation than anything else.

            In terms of suggestions from others, my take is:
            Ethics line may be helpful.
            University title IX offices notoriously vary in effectiveness and power so I would stay in the “chain of command” if you can.
            As a student, I’m not sure university HR would even talk to you, so I definitely don’t suggest starting there. (This is one of those “universities are weird “ cases)

            1. chocolate muffins*

              Professor here and yes, I would follow the list in the comment above, in order – go to the director of clinical training first, and if that doesn’t work or you aren’t comfortable talking with that person then go to your department chair, etc. Don’t start with a dean if talking with someone earlier on the list first is an option. Don’t go to HR – I saw that a bunch in comments and that would be a very bad idea at universities, in my opinion/experience.

              Also, I understand the feeling that you can’t leave. At the same time, another way to look at it is that you *will* leave in a few years, when you graduate. Maybe focus on that end date? Plan something to celebrate? Planning smaller celebratory things along the way (“I finished a semester, that brings me closer to leaving, so I am going to go get a massage/take a weekend trip/do something else fun”) can also help. Another thing is to focus on the ultimate goal when you’re doing your daily work. “I am doing homework for my stats class right now, which will help me graduate, so I am working towards leaving right now.” “I am writing my dissertation which will also help me graduate – more progress toward my goal, I am getting closer.” Etc.

            2. Sutemi*

              The school likely has an ombuds office, and they can provide advice on navigating the university and your options as well if the dean doesn’t respond.

              1. Rock Prof*

                I also was going to suggest the ombud. In theory they’re supposed to be relatively free if influence from above. Since this is dealing with a specific clinic and not like the university president, it should be a good option

            3. LaurCha*

              I would also talk to my advisor. surely some of the students have tenured advisors with enough juice to raise hell about this.

              1. I can see you*

                no, not necessarily. Like, the HR department is sort of involved but since student workers also generally involve a financial aid component, there’s that wrinkle too. And this being a PhD connection too makes it even weirder. A decent HR department would at least be able to hopefully point the student workers towards people who could help with the problem admin though.

              2. Certaintroublemaker*

                The clinic admin and the co-directors are employees, though, and they are supervisors of the student work.

              3. LW1*

                We aren’t considered student workers, just students. The clinical work is part of our training and we don’t receive any pay for it.

            5. LW1*

              This is a helpful list, thank you!

              Part of the challenge/ why this took so long may have been that most of those positions have had an incredible amount of turnover. Like, we’ve had 4 DCTs in 3 years, most of who did not want the position.

              It feels chaotic and disorganized. Also, APA recently extended our accreditation for the maximum renewal length, so us students generally feel like this must be par for the course? It’s hard to know what other grad programs are like.

              1. sparkle emoji*

                This is coming second-hand from my partner, who is PsyD not PhD, but while his campus clinic has some issues, this is way beyond. From what he’s discussed, the problems are more understaffing in oversight positions, personality conflicts among professors that create drama that impacts students, etc. Messy and frustrating, but appointments times are followed and no one’s pushing crystals. This is a different beast and absolutely worth raising.

            6. The Mean Dean*

              Academic upper administrative chain, responding here. I agree that this chain of reporting is clear and good – and I think you’ve already done the work of attempting to resolve at the DCT level. I also wonder if the clinic admin reports to someone else, like a department manager who supervises all non-faculty or non-instructional staff. Reaching out to that person would be useful. (Department admins will know the chain of command, at least.)

              Depending on the size of your university, in terms of the “academic chain of command” there may be intermediate levels – there may be an associate dean for graduate education or student affairs in the graduate school, or an associate dean above your department chair (between them and the dean).

              Since you mention below that the students are doing this work as part of their training (clinical placement, usually by enrolling in a course?) vs. an external employment phase of training (the pre-doctoral internship?), you are not an employee – but the admin is, and their supervisor and HR should want to know about this situation. So you have two avenues for getting attention on this: the academic route (a student with a complaint reported to academic affairs because this is affecting your learning/training experience) and the HR route (an observer reporting to HR and alerting them that this behavior is affecting your learning experience).

              Ideally, the graduate school/dean’s office would respond as advocates for the students and would work to protect them from retaliation, and HR would follow up to see if this employee needs attention and how to intervene. Neither should throw up their hands with a “welp, nothin’ we can do…” But it may be that you file a complaint and don’t hear back, due to their need to keep interventions with an employee confidential.

              IMO, this is the type of situation that arises when faculty members have managerial roles imposed on them. In general, grad schools do not teach future faculty how to manage people or budgets; in some places, they’re barely taught how to teach. Many institutions are trying to address the latter, but continue to fail miserably at the additional “how to manage the business” part of some fields. (Have you ever seen a course on the business aspects of psychological practice? They’re not common.)

              Good luck.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          If students are afraid of retaliation, could external reports be made by recent graduates who have already received their doctorates?

        4. Ama*

          I worked at a university for a decade and the only time I saw anyone step in and deal with employees that were being openly rude to students /other employees was when a Dean got involved (this happened twice – one time they were rude to the Dean’s assistant and the other time the entire floor I worked on, which was a bunch of tiny initiatives run by the Dean’s Office, brought so many complaints about a Bursar’s office employee making our student workers cry to the Dean that he finally took action).

      3. Anonforthis*

        I would emphasise the impact it is having on patients. This admin is actively harming vulnerable people who are attending the clinic. Choosing to go to therapy is a huge deal, and patients really, really don’t need to be subjected to aggression and proselytising.

        Not to mention the admin damaging their recovery by lying to them about appointment times.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          Agreed! I was wondering why the patients were barely mentioned in these comments. The impact on them is the most important thing IMO!

          1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

            I’m guessing a couple reasons. First, there is a word limit and the LW may have assumed that Alison and the readers would understand that this is terrible for the clients without needing it explained. Which we did! Second, the focus of the site is workplace issues, rather than clinical practices, as the former is Alison’s area of expertise. The nice thing is that solving the workplace issue will also solve the clinical practice issue.

        2. MassMatt*

          Yes, sadly the U may well be fine with their grad students being abused, they will probably shrug it off saying “you’re lucky to be in this awesome program, suck it up”. Treatment of patients and their reputation among them may be a more productive route.

        3. Typity*

          Exactly. Imagine if someone really needs help, but is so angry or frightened at the admin’s behavior that they never come back. The impact of her yelling at and lying to a fragile person could be devastating.

      4. The Other Katie*

        Agreed. The clinic directors may not be the admin’s boss, but someone is. Find out who.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          I was wondering why that wasn’t the follow-up question, but if by “non-hierarchical” the clinic directors meant “nobody is in charge and we think that’s a good thing”… Oh dear.

      5. DStewart*

        I would make your document as easy to read as possible.

        Five pages, single spaced sounds off putting.

        Things that will help:
        *Shorter paragraphs
        *Plenty of bullet points
        *”Executive summary” at the top
        *Write it with a narrative that has a beginning, middle and end.
        *If your institution has a style of presentation, follow that (Colors, font, format)

        Good luck!

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          This is good advice, especially the summary at the top.

          Make it easy to scan, so someone can do that and say “Wait, this seems to actually be a problem… Let me read this more thoroughly.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          This is a good point, although I took the “5 pages single spaced” comment more to be an indicator that there are A LOT of issues they kept track of, and even the volume of problems was unmoving to the recipients.
          But you’re not wrong that a different delivery might be more effective.

          1. LW1*

            Yes, it was meant to showcase the number of complaints.

            It was broken into sections for different types of problems (e.g., inappropriate interactions with clients), and each section had several specific, concrete examples.

      6. Elizabeth West*

        This — those poor patients. They’re coming in for help and getting screamed at. What the actual f.

      7. Elitist Semicolon*

        I’d skip HR, which (at unis) tends to be concerned with logistics of hiring and benefits management, and go to the Dean of the Graduate School. They tend to take complaints like this seriously given the potential impact on the program (whether function, reputation, or accreditation). Another option, if OP is nervous about the impact on them and/or their cohort if they file a complaint, is to see whether the uni has an Ombuds office that can help them assess the situation, talk through potential strategies, and maybe even contact various administrators on their behalf. At my uni, conversations with Ombuds staff are confidential and questions they ask on someone’s behalf are anonymous – to the extent that when a member here sent me a response to a question and copied in the admin they’d asked, I was able to point out to the director that they weren’t supposed to mention my name. If the OP is worried about retaliation, having someone who is bound by confidentiality figure out to whom to direct the complaint may be the safest, most effective option.

    2. Elf*

      Really like the phrasing here – definitely use the behemoth. University HR, and/or Deans or someone in the level of management who is going to be scared for the University reputation. A Whistleblower line is a good option, if there is one. And do lean on the impact to patients as much as the impact to staff, which might get more traction. Good luck!

      1. GammaGirl1908*

        100% use the behemoth! Now! Today! This person reports to SOMEBODY, and that somebody reports to somebody. Go up the chain until you find the person who is horrified by this. The directors of the clinic are not the end-all and final word on this.

        To put it mildly, this is not the right job for this person. You’re helping her find a job where she’s a better fit, and helping the clinic find someone who’s a better fit for this job. It’s worth it to put in some effort to make that happen.

        When I was a grad student in psychology, we just had work-study students manning the front desk of the clinic, and they were infinitely better at the job than this.

        1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          100% this.
          In addition to the other people mentioned (grad program director, department chair, deans), do you have a supervisor in the department for your other work? I have a PhD in psychology (but on the research side, with nothing to do with clinical practice) and we all had a faculty supervisor, including the clinical psychology students, as there was a substantial research component to their program as well. I had a generally good relationship with my supervisor, so she’s the one I would go to with any kind of problems. Even if she couldn’t solve them, she would know the best path to solve the problem. Do you have anyone like that, LW? This could include faculty who taught courses you took who you have a good relationship with.

      2. BaalLikeBocce*

        Additionally, if you’re not sure who to contact or how to phrase things, your university’s Ombuds office may be helpful. They are (supposed to be) safe and confidential spaces to discuss problems and concerns. They were helpful to me when I was on staff at a university a few years back and wanted to know my options.

      3. BethDH*

        But I think it’s worth underscoring that HR is probably not relevant here (an email to ask doesn’t hurt, I just wouldn’t waste time starting there when the dean is far more likely to be the path). Most graduate students are not staff within university admin, even if they are working in a professional role.
        Deans, definitely. Chair of the department. University ombudsperson. Your institution may also have someone in a role that is basically about procedures that involve humans as research subjects; while this doesn’t sound like your patients fit the typical definition they would likely know how complaints involving patients could be escalated based on how similar treatment of human research subjects would be handled.

        1. Kate*

          I think folks are recommending HR because someone like a clinic manager is most likely a university staff employee rather than an academic employee, and thus she would be under HR herself. That might be what the codirectors (who are grossly negligent) mean by saying that there’s no hierarchy; she’s out of their chain of command.

          1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

            Yeah, but in a university, HR is going to have less power than the deans/chairs/etc. to make something actually happen, especially related to a grad program. HR is going to be off on a totally separate unit, and primarily concerned with hiring/benefits/etc. University staff are usually still academic employees if they’re overseeing students in any capacity, and they’re usually still under the hierarchy of their unit.
            Plus, even if that staff member isn’t under them, a Dean or chair has enough sway and pull over these things that they can make something happen.

            Honestly, I’m side-eying the co-directors, as I would not be surprised if they’re just too cowardly to speak up because it’s not affecting *them*.

    3. whistle*

      When I had trouble with an important matter at a university, I eventually escalated to a dean and it got resolved.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      #1 absolutely yes. Go to the dean of the med school, go to the central administration person who handles grad student stuff (provost or something).

      If that doesn’t work, go to the press.

      1. Claire*

        This was my thought too. If I escalated this to enough people and no one took it seriously, eventually I would leek the memo outlining the issues to the press, particularly if the school has its own paper.

    5. MassMatt*

      I would do this and also try to bring in complaints from the patients/clients. The U might sadly be fine with their grad students being abused, if they understand it’s hurting their reputation among those they are supposed to serve that may get more action. Is there an online review platform? An alumni network?

      I would also research why the directors are shrugging their shoulders at this. Is this person related to someone important? Has she got blackmail material? Or are the directors simply cowards.

      I’m puzzled how this program is described as so uber-competitive and yet seems so dysfunctional.

      1. rofl*

        To your last line – thank for the hearty laugh! In academia the more prestigious the program, the more dysfunction there is, usually.

        1. Annony*

          Yep. Competitive program means that demand far exceeds the slots so they stop caring if they loose a few candidates. There always seem to be enough candidates willing to deal with a few years of abuse if it means getting a prestigious degree. Academia can be super toxic.

        2. Koala*

          YUP. I worked for a program where the division director would literally scream at people in the hallways and call people “f—ing idiots” and yet it was a very competetive place to work, and any complaints about the director were met with “well, he has tenure” or “yeah but he’s really good at getting grant money.” There was ridiculous turnover but there were also always lots of really great applicants. I will note that after I left the university reorganized the department so that the director had nobody under him — basically they created a whole new program and reassigned everyone to that program. Bizarre.
          Before I worked there I thought the show House was really unbelievable.

        3. MigraineMonth*

          To be fair, this isn’t just a problem in academia. A lot of the really cool-seeming jobs that everyone thinks they would want end up being terrible because you’re competing with so many other applicants. Think about those unpaid exploitative internships at prestigious magazines, low salaries for librarians and teachers, or how hard it is to make a living as a fiction author.

          It’s hard to negotiate for better wages and conditions when there are so many people who would be happy to do your job for free. (Unless you have a union!)

        4. Pescadero*

          Yep… like acting and music – because the demand so grossly exceeds the supply, you end up with really, really dysfunctional situations.

      2. iglwif*

        I’m puzzled how this program is described as so uber-competitive and yet seems so dysfunctional.

        The thing is, the harder people have to work to get into a program and the more prestigious it will look on their CV, the more (the program is likely to assume) they are willing to put up with, and the less the institution is likely to prioritize fixing the problems. Like, why would you fix the problems if you have applicants lined up around the block to get into your program and the ones already in it aren’t dropping out?

        If this sounds cynical, it’s because I know a very large number of people with PhDs.

      3. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        Hahahaha tell me you’re not familiar with academia without telling me. The more competitive a program the more dysfunctional it can afford to be. People won’t put up with dysfunction from a lower-tier program but will tolerate a great deal to have University of Prestigious on their CV.

      4. MtnLaurel*

        It’s the nature of the field. There are many more students who want to be in the program than there are seats.

    6. Santiago*

      Unis typically have an anonymous ethics reporting hotline. Anonymize the five page report and submit it with as much evidence as possible — my take — anyways.

    7. Katara's side braids*

      Commented this below, but there are so many comments it might get buried. Definitely agree with trying to use the behemoth as much as possible. But if that doesn’t work, and this person has some kind of clinical (or other) license, consider whether you can go directly to the licensing board with your ethical concerns. The behaviors you described (yelling, swearing, giving advice that risks harm to the clients, etc) sure sound like serious ethical violations to me, especially if this clinic works with vulnerable people.

    8. LW1*

      So, a rather good update:

      When I wrote Alison, there had been an uptick in a lot of the behaviors that prompted the letter. Since that time, the admin was actually fired. We were all astounded and didn’t think it would ever actually happen, but it did. The messaging started shifting from “nothing can be done” to “we hear you but we can’t discuss what’s being done” until everyone got an email one day announcing the admin was gone.

      I think this is one of those tricky things where of course the employee should have privacy about disciplinary matters, but those impacted really needed too have heard more. Also, it shouldn’t have taken 3+ years; that’s just too excessively long.

      Regardless of the resolution, I’m very happy to see people posting suggestions. Us grad students often feel pretty stuck and powerless, so I’m hoping the comments here will help others dealing with their own tough situations.

      2. Hlao-roo*

        I’m glad she’s out of there! I would bet that you and other students pushing for action did help something happen, but I agree that 3+ years is too long for higher-ups to act :(

      5. Aerin*

        Yay! Absolutely keep these suggestions in mind, and make sure to inform your fellow grad students and people coming into the program so the information stays circulating. It’s really important for people to understand what their options are.

    9. Princess Sparklepony*

      Regarding the pregnancy journal, part of me would be very happy that she is confiding in her pregnancy journal and not talking endlessly about being pregnant. So I’m thinking the journal is a win win type thing.

  3. KJC*

    I think the first letter should escalate the issue to a higher up as a group, if possible. It always shocks me when places that give counseling to people on how to heal mentally have literal abusive people on staff. Also, just to comment on one of the options mentioned – there actually are lots of graduate students unionizing right now. I’m skeptical whether it’s an unmitigated good (some universities subsequently can’t admit new students to departments that don’t have the funding to pay the higher negotiated salaries). But it actually is a longer term option. One final option not mentioned – is it possible to subtly hint to a dissatisfied patient that they can always escalate their issue or post a review online? I’m not sure if that’s a safe idea (would love to hear what others think), but if this staff person is being inappropriate towards patients, the higher ups might start responding if it gets more public.

    1. KJC*

      Oh one more thought – I like the comment by someone else about using the university’s broader HR to address this. Also, most universities have an Ombuds office / Ombudsman to resolve conflicts. Check if there’s one you can get involved. Here’s the definition from the Ombuds Association. “A college or university ombudsman is authorized by an institution of higher education to confidentially receive complaints, concerns, or inquiries about alleged acts, omissions, improprieties, and/or broader systemic problems within the ombudsman’s defined jurisdiction and to listen, offer options, facilitate resolutions, informally investigate or otherwise examine these issues independently and impartially.”

      1. Brad Deltan*

        YES! Excellent point! Here’s a great rule of thumb to remember when it comes to Ombudsmen’s Offices: The Ombudsman Office is there to help YOU. The HR Office is there to help your EMPLOYER. That’s not to say HR can’t also help you, but they are the representative of the employer before anything else.

        During a brief stint working for a state university, I discovered the Ombuds Office almost by accident and it’s a damn good thing I did because had I gone to HR with the problems I was having with my boss, they would’ve…by that state’s law**…been required to report it all to my boss. (WTF?!?!)

        ** I believe it was enshined in state law, but it might’ve been university-wide policy, which is nearly as immutable in that particular state, where the state university bureaucracy is legendarily evil and huge.

      2. RC*

        Yes, many universities have unionized (the University of California’s is a local in the UAW), but that’s a long game. Ombuds might be a good option, maybe/especially if you are going as a group. I consulted one of ours in grad school and it got the supervisory person to resolve my problem that I didn’t know how to resolve myself. The uni/department surely has one (or several).

      3. A Person*

        Yeah, since it’s a university there should be other ways to escalate, not just HR – is there a student grievance process? Would your academic supervisor or someone senior in your department put a stop to it if they found out what was going on? Where I live it might also be possible to report this as a health and safety violation, but I’m not sure if that’s the case for the LW.

        1. Perihelion*

          I was thinking, in my PhD program I would have started by flagging this to my advisor, who probably would have tried to do something, or to the director of graduate studies for the department, or the department dean. That wasn’t a program with a clinical component, so it might work differently here, but I’d start by talking to the faculty who should be invested in your success in the program, and seeing what they say or do.

          1. bamcheeks*

            The other option I was wondeifng about js whether as psychologists they have a clinical supervision process which is separate from an academic supervision and their employment with the clinic. If so, that’s another place to discuss it even if it’s only to strategise the way forward with a semi-outside party.

            1. LW1*

              The clinic directors are our supervisors.

              Students did inform their advisors, but mostly got advice on how to tiptoe around the admin. Some advisors did step in and help escalate some of the more serious written complaints toward the end.

    2. learnedthehardway*

      Agreeing – if the clinic program is within the university, then the department chair of the Psychology dept may be the right person to inform. I bet they would be very interested to know that the clinic receptionist is yelling at or decrying science-based treatment in favour of crystals to vulnerable patients.

    3. JSPA*

      If it can be done with scrupulous attention to patient privacy (even the mere presence at the clinic could be fraught) going to the local newspaper (or student newspaper?) is another possibility. As is reaching out to accrediting bodies. The repercussions of whistleblowing may also be carreer- ending, but at least you’ll have given it your best shot (and they probably won’t expel an entire grad cohort).

    4. RW*

      I’m a GP not psychologist, but I will go from mentioning that a complaints process exists (to almost all dissatisfied patients) through to actively encouraging writing a formal complaint/offering to help write it, depending on the situation, the patient, and how seriously I feel it needs to be escalated. So certainly if a patient said “admin did xyz today” in some circumstances you could say “I agree that was inappropriate, can I help you lodge a complaint?” although up to OP how appropriate that is in their context

    5. LW1*

      There’s technically a union here that many are part of, but it’s a right-to-work state so the union can’t do much at all.

      The difficulty with patient complaints is that we care about our patients. The students were always on watch and jumped in as quick as possible to protect their patients from the admin, apologize, smooth things over, etc. Obviously the patients couldn’t be totally insulated from things, but we did our best.

      1. Ms. Eleanous*

        LW1 –Union can still have an effect.
        The only thing right- to-work means is that employees who don’t choose to join don’t have to pony up dues.

        Talk to your union rep or the local office.

        If you’re not already a member, join.

  4. Nodramalama*

    LW2, maybe in your brain substitute the pregnancy journal with a phone. If she was on her phone as much as writing in her journal, would you notice it and think about saying something, or would you not clock the usage?

    1. notsure1*

      I don’t think it’s exactly like a phone if the journal is like a large 8 x 11 journal with a big picture on the front of a pregnant person.

      1. Allonge*

        I don’t think that way the point. It’s not that a journal looks the same as a phone, it’s to assess if the same amount of time spent on playing with/reading or texting on a phone would raise a concern.

        1. Molly Millions*

          There could be an optics issue if it’s an ostentatiously sized scrapbook-type thing that takes up a lot of real estate.
          But if it’s a normal-sized notebook, I don’t see how that’s any different than someone, say, updating their Weekly Planner or Food Journal multiple times a day (neither of which should be distracting to others).

          1. mbs001*

            The issue wouldn’t so much be the distraction but rather the personal issues on work time. They’re not paying her to jot down her precious pregnancy thoughts. And if she’s writing in the journal constantly during the day, that’s too much. Period.

            1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

              I think it would be fine if she is spending a few moments throughout the day writing in the journal. As long as she isn’t stopping a client mid sentence or making a big deal about writing something down. Afterall we are all human and we take a few moments to think about something home related, send a text to a spouse, or make a brief call to the bank, etc.

            2. Olive*

              Raise your hand if you’re ever here during work and someone is paying you to jot down your precious comments.

              2. Armchair analyst*

                You sound really resentful. Would you feel that way if it was a grief journal or an employee was crafting a tribute to a beloved pet to post on social media? The point here is to remove emotion – like your word “precious” – from the reaction and see what a reasonable manager would do

                1. The esteemed governor*

                  I think Olive is pointing out the hypocrisy of mbs001’s comment when they’re chastising the pregnant person for jotting things down during work, yet here we all are doing the same thing on AAM

            3. Spreadsheet Queen*

              I’ve had mental health treatment (helloooo anxiety!) and I was SUPPOSED TO jot down every time something happened that made me feel anxious at work. (Yes, I am one of those people who have a hard time saying no, and have some weird inner “thing” that says that if they put it on my plate, I’m supposed to be able to get it done. Perfectly. None of that is healthy. Sadly, sometimes it is correct that an employer actually expects that. Probably, they were “trained” to expect that because I kept making the mistake of delivering. Anyway…) It would have been a real overstep if my supervisor had tried to shut that down as “doing personal things on work time”.
              So, I’ve never been pregnant, and perhaps some of what this person is writing down are “excitement about being pregnant” things. But they may also be tracking medical things like how their body feels and mental health things (because, oh boy, are there hormones involved and they do affect mental health). It’s possible that some of this journaling is directed or suggested by her medical or mental health professional(s). I would not approach that as “don’t do personal things on work time”. I would approach more on the side of asking her to tone down her interactions/distractions of other people about it.

            4. JSPA*

              Are personal insights literally the only plausible thing she’s writing? I can see someone noting (say) alertness vs exhaustion, how she’s dealing with nausea, mood swings, coping strategies for work stresses, items that’re going to be difficult to reach under desks or in high cabinets in a few months… given she’s described as reliable and conscientious, why would we assume that that has suddenly changed?

              And if something occasionally crosses her mind or comes through her pattern that is not specifically work related, how is that different from someone non pregnant making a note on the calendar to get eggs and bread on the way home?

            5. Also-ADHD*

              The letter makes it seem like she’s writing for a few minutes several times a day. If it’s constant, that’s obviously different, but I think that’s why the advice to think of it as other things might be helpful (Alison gives some examples of other things people do – chat, get a snack, etc. and the phone example is also one). If the time is onerous, that’s a different issue, as Alison notes!

      3. Kisa*

        What a weirdly specific imaginery :D honest question: is that some common brand journal you’re talking about?

        i was thinking about more generic pocket/carrying around size journal.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Do an image search on the web for ” New mother pregnancy joural” and you’ll see a lot of large books with flowery covers — many with an insert space for ultrasound pics.

          1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

            Who cares if it’s a giant flowery notebook? The fact that people don’t like looking at something doesn’t make it inappropriate. If she’s jotting something down a couple minutes a day, it can have a baby cherub on the front in pastels. Seems like the concern for “optics” is just covert sexism.

            1. Yankees fans are awesome*

              “If she’s jotting something down a couple minutes a day…”
              —
              LW wrote “she now walks around with a first-time mom pregnancy journal and pulls it out to write in. Continually. It has been about a week and I see this journal multiple times a day.”

              Sounds like more than just “a couple minutes.”

              @LW: Awkward but yes, this needs time management.

          2. metadata minion*

            Unless she’s at a service desk or bringing it out in meetings or something, I’m not sure how the optics are relevant. Someone could have a large daily planner with a flowery cover and be doing entirely work-relevant things in it.

      4. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        So what if it’s a 5×7 solid color notebook? 5×7 with the words “Pregnancy Journal” in a swirly font? The point is amount of time spent and disruption to work, not the literal format.

        1. boof*

          Yea replace “pregnancy paraphernalia” with “black lives matter” or “pride planner” or IDK whatever, people get to be pregnant and proud provided they’re still working to par* and not like, pushing some kind of agenda on someone else (IDK, demanding gifts or or telling other people they need to get pregnant etc).
          *honestly given pregnancy is a very physical condition that for me at least caused massive fatigue early on, I would say this should be working ENOUGH not necessarily at the same level that they were while not pregnant, even

        2. MigraineMonth*

          Did you know that the majority of pregnant people are women who have had sex? It’s practically pornographic to have photos of them lying around.

          The employee being pregnant is fine, of course, as long as she doesn’t flaunt her status with any type of maternity wear.

          /s in case it wasn’t obvious

          1. Jennifer Strange*

            And in the spirit of sitcom pregnancy-hiding, she should also need to carry a potted plant or large bag in front of her once she starts to show.

    2. Senga*

      Bear in mind that there can be medical reasons for writing in a pregancy journal – e.g. being advised to make a note of foetal movements. In a case like that, you would see the journal multiple times a day but the time spent writing in it is very brief. Assuming that it is simply ‘first pregnancy excitement’ might be off-base. The only way to be sure is to have a conversation about it, and approach it without judgement.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        This was my first thought as well. There may well be a medically recommended tracking aspect – like if someone doing chemo was tracking nausea or fatigue, you presumably would be okay with that. (Obviously not comparing pregnancy to cancer! Just both conditions where people may be advised to frequently track what’s going on physically).

      2. Allegra*

        This was exactly my thought, medical reasons–a friend has had gestational diabetes and hyperemesis with multiple pregnancies and needed to track food intake, med doses, blood sugar, etc. with rigid regularity.

      3. Lacey*

        That was my thought too. I have had friend with complicated pregnancies. They were supposed to track various physical symptoms throughout the day.

        For a lot of people commenting and maybe even in the OP’s letter, there seems to be an attitude of “Ok, you’re pregnant, but it shouldn’t be something people are reminded of!”

        But if it’s not effecting her work – this shouldn’t be an issue. And if it is effecting her work, but she’s tracking it for medical reasons, they need to accomodate that.

      4. Becky*

        In that case, she can always open the “Notes” app on her phone, write down whatever she needs to write, and then when she gets home, write it down in her journal. That way, it won’t look like she’s slacking off. I do that all the time when I need to write a note to myself.

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          But then she’ll get dinged for being on her phone too much. She can’t win either way.

        2. Insulindian Phasmid*

          But she’s assuming not slacking off, writing in a non-pregnancy-specific journal wouldn’t look like slacking off. So why should she have to hide it?

    3. Momma Bear*

      I’m actually wondering what she’s writing in it and if it’s just a narrative or if she’s tracking anything for her provider, like a food journal. Either way, I still think the best rule of thumb is the impact on her productivity.

    4. LaminarFlow*

      Totally! Also, her pregnancy may be high risk or have some special circumstance. Her doctor may have advised her to track certain symptoms to figure out if her pregnancy is ok/she’s ok. She could have alerted you to “I have Complication A with Complication B, so I’m tracking Symptoms C&D in this book, but it won’t take away from my work performance” but do you really need to micromanage her if she’s getting her work done?

    5. Turquoisecow*

      100% agree.

      If an employee is pausing to check social media or send a quick text or something on their phone throughout the day, how often before it starts to interfere with their work? If it’s for two minutes an hour? Five minutes? It depends a lot on optics. Maybe they use their phone frequently but it’s at their desk unobtrusively while waiting for some process to run on the computer. Maybe they use it rarely but in an obvious way that everyone notices it. Maybe they use it infrequently but have the bad luck to be on it almost every time a VIP walks by.

      The journal *looks* different so it’s standing out more than a phone (and I’m guessing is larger than a phone, which are usually about the size of one’s hand) so maybe it’s bugging the OP more. But is the use actually more than would bother you if she was just using a phone? Is it interfering with work in that she’s slower to complete work because she has to finish writing first or if you ask her a question she doesn’t answer right away but finishes a sentence in the journal? It’s more noticeable but if it’s not actually interfering with work then I would leave it alone.

    6. JMC*

      Here is a thought, how about the OP let it go? It’s not hurting anyone, while the OP wanting to micromanage someone over a notebook is ridiculous. It’s temporary anyway. Just drop it.

      1. LookAtMeI'mTheManagerNow*

        Yeah, it seems bizarre to me to worry about this. She’s allowed to be excited! Writing in a journal a few times a day may be eccentric or she may have a very good but also very personal reason for doing so. This isn’t worth the manager’s time, as presented.

        1. Nancy*

          It sounds like the manager is pissy about the employees excitement about the pregnancy itself, frankly. They say:

          “Last week, she announced to the office (repeatedly) that she is pregnant.”

          I’ve never had children or wanted them, but if I found out my boss was criticizing me for talking about my new pregnancy more than once and getting petty about a journal of all things, I’d be very uncomfortable and it would feel like harassment for the pregnancy itself.

          I would hate this letter writer to have any power over me in the workplace.

    7. Muffy*

      I think it’s odd to carry around something that announces your pregnancy. It seems like a way to keep announcing your pregnancy and seeking congratulations without announcing it. A non descript journal or notebook – fine. But something that is obviously pregnancy related by its cover page is not appropriate. She doesn’t know if there are women or men in the workplace dealing with infant loss, miscarriage, infertility. To me. Someone who does something this obvious is seeking attention.

      1. Come on, really?*

        Yeah! It’s like when people wear their engagement rings to the office. It seems like a way to keep announcing their engagement and seeking congratulations without announcing it. A non descript wedding ring or plain band – fine. But something that is obviously engagement related by its look is not appropriate. She doesn’t know if there are women or men in the workplace dealing with marriage breakdown or divorce. To me. Someone who does something this obvious is seeking attention.

        1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

          What? I mean, I really don’t know, but I have always thought of engagement rings as being jewelry, and some people just wear rings. I didn’t have one myself, so I don’t know how people get when they have or see one. Do they get weird about it?

      2. Jennifer Strange*

        Wow, you’re certainly projecting A LOT. First, we don’t know what kind of notebook it is. It could be pretty nondescript just with the words “Pregnancy Journal” on it. She could be using it because she has a high risk pregnancy or needs to track health items for her doctor. And she’s going to be carrying around something that announces her pregnancy for quite a while (nine months!). As someone who has miscarried, I’m not dismissing that pain, but unless she’s literally shoving it in their face (which there is no indication she is doing) it’s no more “seeking attention” than someone wearing an engagement/wedding ring or hanging a diploma on their office wall.

  5. MyStars*

    #1, if your clinic has oversight from the state or if your academic program has credentialing, calling in those agencies might get the attention of the people who say they have no power to address it. Presumably this would fall under abuse or neglect of a patient, which is the kind of ethical issue that gets a program dropped from reputable associations. this is a nuclear option, but you seem to have little other recourse.

    2. Metal Gru*

      They are providing actual services to real patients, right? So there’s also a decent chance that the work is overseen by a professional body for the field (e.g. psychology) in addition to academically. Some of the things LW describes are clearly against the ethical code of any of these bodies (recommending crystals instead of the actual treatment??), also especially if the directors, who LW has already brought this to, are clinicians in their own right, I think the accepting body would take a dim view of them endorsing this. “But they don’t endorse it, they just said nothing can be done”… yeah, inaction is endorsement.

  6. Brad Deltan*

    LW1 is this terrible person also abusive to, or in the presence of, undergraduate students? If so, you’re in luck. Round up a few undergrads and have them all file formal complaints of abuse. This person will be fired in no time. The modern rules of “in loco parentis” mean abusive people like this get the heave-ho very quickly once you get past one or two complaints.

    The specifics will vary depending on your actual college/university, of course. But for a guide to give you some ideas about where & how to start the process, take a look at Beloit College’s guide: https://www.beloit.edu/grievance-procedure/

    1. MsM*

      Might not also be the worst idea to tip off some enterprising undergraduate journalists there’s a potential expose on the university putting students’ mental health at risk.

      1. Dear Liza dear liza*

        This. It sounds like this admin could be a state employee and IME, HR will do nothing unless there’s documented misconduct with finances or students- and the students have to be the ones to complain. A student with a lawyer parent, or if the parent is an alum, is even better.

      2. Forested*

        This. If you’re getting absolutely no help from above and the situation is truly untenable and affecting your (and other student’s) work, press is probably not a bad idea. At the *very* least, it might be whisper network time.

    2. metadata minion*

      Does the in loco parentis aspect apply to college students (who are almost all over 18)? Everything I can find on that law is only for minors.

      1. Bumblebee*

        Technically we are not in loco parentis, but it is a philosophy that informed early higher education (like way back in the 1700s). 25 years ago or so as a budding administrator we were all taught not to be in loco parentis, but times have changed and even though we are not technically in loco parentis, the university atmosphere, the parental influence, and students’ overall lack of independence means that we often are called to act as if we are.

      2. Brad Deltan*

        It’s been about ten years since I’ve actively worked in higher ed, but for the 15+ years before that, it wasn’t a legal precedent, per se, but yes: colleges had enormous responsibilities under the *concept* of in loco parentis. In many cases, these responsibilities either had direct or indirect legal consequences.

        But what I’m talking about has more to do with how the culture of undergraduate education has become far, far more transactional in the last twenty years. Students have shifted more and more towards the attitude of “I’m paying $80,000/yr to come to this place, I’m the customer and I’m always right.” So when you have an abusive staff/faculty member that shits all over students, those students are going to be pissed and they will file lawsuits if they feel the college isn’t taking them seriously enough.

    3. mabel pines*

      This is what I thought too. If there are undergrads who complain loudly–or, say, make some social media posts talking about their experiences with this person/going to this clinic that just happen to tag the university’s public-facing page in them–you may find that this person is dealt with quickly.

      Grad students (alas, I was one too, and also the recipient of much abuse at the hands of professors ‘no one could do anything about,’ including one that admitted in writing to sexually assaulting my roommate) are the least powerful people on campus. Undergraduates have a lot more clout.

  7. An academic*

    For #1: Sorry, no one gives a flying flick about grad students. But mistreating patients is bad. If you find the right person who is responsible for the departmental clinic, focus on the harm to patients and possibly to the bottom line (this only works if your patients mostly pay or bring in insurance to the university). If no one cares, you could possibly go to the media anonymously about the harm to patients, but that’s a nuclear option.

    1. Anne Boleyn's Necklace*

      I would say to put out some feelers and consider reaching out to the university’s student newspaper. It’s amazing how suddenly there are options to address a problematic employee when it becomes public, and becomes Bad Publicity For The University. The employee is an admin, not a tenured professor, so there are absolutely things that can be done. Undergraduate students also will usually be more willing to go on record and complain about their experiences than the more vulnerable grad students.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      As someone who works in a university counseling department I’m appalled at this behavior, and the people in charge of the clinic! Find out who the clinic is accredited with and make a complaint to them. Have all the grad students make a complaint.

  8. Kat*

    Side note: you don’t have to take FMLA all at once. The law allows for intermittent FMLA, So you can work some days and be off others.

    1. Dancing Otter*

      Intermittent FMLA is really the way to go if your principal need is for medical appointments and day-after-chemo care, say, rather than daily caregiving.

      There is a slight risk, though, depending on the manager. It ought not to happen, but some bosses… Don’t let them push for you to use FMLA days only when it’s convenient for *them*. If you’re in Accounting, for example, you can absolutely take your husband to chemo even during month-end or year-end close, if that’s when the clinic wants him there.
      It’s reasonable to let them know when you will or won’t be able to work with as much advance warning as possible, but they can’t tell you you can’t use the FMLA on an emergency basis when something comes up suddenly.

      I hope things turn out to be less serious than you fear.

      1. I Have RBF*

        Yeah, medical appointments like chemo don’t have a lot of leeway for scheduling. They happen when they happen. The best you get to pick is morning or afternoon.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Side note #2 —
      a. If you have been paying into short-term disability insurance you may be able to file for income that way.
      b. If you are in Connecticut, the state has paid leave provisions. It does require a separate round of paperwork with a different administrator, and a company based in a different state may not know to suggested to you. (It’s a relatively recent program.)

        1. Lurker*

          New York has something called Paid Family Leave, which is exactly for situations like this, where you need to take time off to care for someone else.

          1. What what*

            And Oregon as well (and based on how disparate these comments are, possibly other states not mentioned here).

            1. What what*

              Oh! And many states have their own version of FMLA as well, which might offer additional protections. Something else to look into.

      3. Hannah Lee*

        Massachusetts has paid leave as well, including specifically for someone providing care for/transport for a family member with a medical issue.

      4. wavefunction*

        Oregon now also has paid medical leave! Search Paid Leave Oregon if you need information. It only pays for full days of work (not half days), but intermittent use is fine.

    3. karstmama*

      I took FMLA last summer when my DH’s heart very suddenly failed. What surprised me was that HR told me I had to take PTO to keep my insurance (which was also his insurance). She said that officially I had to take enough to cover all the time I worked (so 36 hours a week of PTO) which of course would never have covered 12 weeks of FMLA since I don’t get 12 weeks of PTO, but she specifically said she never checked but it had to be enough to cover my contribution to the insurance. So I took 12 hours a week. Which still decimated my PTO, but DH got a heart transplant and is feeling much better. I still haven’t built my PTO back up.

      1. Artemesia*

        What a terrible policy. The two institutions where people close to me took FMLA both kept the health insurance going.

        1. Sara without an H*

          This. karstmama, I’ve taken FMLA myself and your HR person didn’t know what she was talking about.

          Glad your DH is doing better.

      2. Observer*

        What surprised me was that HR told me I had to take PTO to keep my insurance (which was also his insurance). She said that officially I had to take enough to cover all the time I worked

        I’m pretty sure that they cannot do that. They can make you take your PTO, yes. But I don’t think that they can take your insurance if you take the leave unpaid.

        1. Paper Pusher Extraordinaire*

          I think HR poorly explained the insurance options. If you are unpaid status, you are not making making payroll deductions towards health insurance, so yes your insurance can be dropped. What’s supposed to happen is that HR gives you a method of making payments on your health insurance outside of payroll deduction, so your coverage continues.

          1. wavefunction*

            The rules on this vary widely by state. Some places require the employer to keep the insurance coverage up through the duration of the unpaid leave, and in some places it depends on if the insurance can be temporarily stopped and started.

          2. PlainJane*

            yeah, I came here to say this. I think the HR person was “helping” by having someone use their PTO to cover the employee contribution. I’ve had employees choose to do this so as not to have to deal with paying separately.

    5. Sparkles McFadden*

      Coming here to say that intermittent FMLA is an option. It works really well because you can take days off here and there for doctor visits and procedures. Talk to HR and get the paperwork done now, get it approved, and find out what your company’s specific policies are. I hope it all turns out OK.

        1. fellow_caretaker*

          I also want to add that if you do intermittent leave it’s possible, at least in MA with PFML, to take intermittent leave entirely as needed. My child needed care that included both predictable extended periods of time for a planned hospital stay and also needed some unpredictable emergency care. They told me to write the frequency as 7 times for every 1 week for 24 hours which is their equation for ‘as needed’ and then I called to report any hours that I took leave for.

    6. A Simple Narwhal*

      Yes, my mom took intermittent FMLA for my grandfather and it allowed her time to take him to his various appointments each week. The flexibility to take it for just hours at a time rather than days was incredibly helpful.

    7. Ostrich Herder*

      Seconding (or third-ing or fourth-ing) this. My partner’s dad was sick, and his mom was able to spend a staggering amount of her time with him without exhausting her FMLA. When he was home, she worked two or three days a week, and took the other two or three off, as his care and schedule allowed. When she needed to be with him in an out-of-town hospital, she worked with his doctors to schedule almost all his treatments, scans, etc. that required her attention in the afternoons, so she could have a mostly-reliable “I’ll be working from 7 to noon” schedule. That way, she only had to use about three hours of FMLA a day. She was able to do most of that work from his bedside.

      A note on balancing work and caretaking: If your husband winds up staying in the hospital for a bit, and you do some sort of balancing act to ration FMLA, talk to your hospital’s social worker as soon as you can. They’re a great resource. My mother-in-law explained that she was working mornings from her husband’s bedside, but sometimes needed to take calls or video meetings without a lot of warning, and needed somewhere to take them. The social worker was able to help her find places within the hospital itself (conference rooms, etc.) that would be quiet and private, which was especially helpful because hospitals can be SO LOUD. I also recommend being nice to your husband’s care team just on principle, but the nurses and doctors loved my MIL because she was so nice, and they were a huge help because of it. They moved my FIL to a room that was closer to the conference rooms specifically to help her out, and even set up space for her at the nurse’s station so she could work there when the room was too loud or crowded for her to stay. She was also the only guest on their floor with permission to use the nurse’s coffee station. The care team will be capable of hooking you up, take care to be the kind of person they’ll go out of their way for.

      But truly, I hope you don’t need ANY of this advice and your husband’s scans come back free and clear. My fingers are crossed for you both!

  9. Ladida*

    #2 – if you have to say something – which I’m not convinced you do – take the pregnancy out of it and just focus on the journaling…if that makes sense.

    1. GammaGirl1908*

      This might be difficult because I’m not entirely sure the journaling IS the problem. Lots of people fill out food journals or mental health journals or whatever. It seems that Employee is making a big show of the early stages of her pregnancy, including dramatically flinging around a huge book at work, and that makes it feel like it’s happening all the time. I might just give it a moment to see if the journaling tapers off some once the novelty of the pregnancy wears off a bit.

      (I also suspect the unspoken bit is that LW was at BEC stage with Employee for other reasons before the pregnancy, and now the big show of the early stages of her pregnancy is just adding an extra layer to the journaling and making it all feel enormous, whether or not it actually is. Yes, many of us are annoyed by people who become zealots once they have a big life change, but frequently the novelty wears off after a while, and it all tapers off.)

      1. Agent Diane*

        There’s nothing in the letter suggesting the writer is at BEC stage. She says she has no problems with her employee’s work.

        1. Nancy*

          And yet she starts the letter snidely saying “Last week, she announced to the office (repeatedly) that she is pregnant.”.

          1. fhqwhgads*

            That could be snide, or it could just be factual. Like if she announced it at every single meeting she attended that week, even when the participants are the same, that’s an abnormal frequency for “announcing”. Unfortunately it doesn’t say more specifically how many times it was repeated or to what audience, but I’m taking the statement at face value that it was unnecessarily repetitive.
            Same thing sort of applies to any advice about the journal: if it’s “every time I see her she’s journaling, not working” that’s different than “I noticed her doing it more than once a day”. If the issue is the employee’s focus seems to be not on work, address that. If the employee is still focusing on work enough and getting things done as she always has, then there’s no issue and LW needs to chill. We can’t tell which.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          And I don’t think it can be a huge book, like a massive album, because eventually the book has to share space with the belly and the latter is going to win.

        2. Tea Monk*

          Yes, I do that all the time at work. It’s true that it says ” call work person” or ” the boss says to do this” but it is a big old journal

      3. Jennifer Strange*

        It seems that Employee is making a big show of the early stages of her pregnancy, including dramatically flinging around a huge book at work

        Where on earth are you getting that???

        1. Bossy*

          It’s amazing how people like to act like pregnant people are dramatic when these folks RESPONDING to the pregnant persons being pregnant are the ones with issues. She wrote in a book a couple times and now it’s she’s flinging books and is so ridiculous she had to have had her manger at bec stage. M’kay lol

          1. Jennifer Strange*

            Right? It reminds me of yesterday’s LW who explained that he yelled at this staff because he’s not emotional (because anger isn’t an emotion?)

    2. ecnaseener*

      I agree. I’d leave out mentions of the pregnancy altogether from this conversation and say whatever you’d say if she had just spontaneously gotten into journaling.

      If the journal itself is very conspicuous as GammaGirl suggests (which may or may not be the case), the same principle applies – she has a big distracting journal, regardless of pregnancy.

      The only reason pregnancy needs to factor into this is if the employee explains that she’s writing down medical notes, in which case you might need to give more leeway, not less.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I wonder how the LW knows it’s a pregnancy journal. If it’s just a notebook then coworker looks like she’s writing in a notebook.

      Seems that the coworker is quite possibly being performative in some way – it’s obviously a pregnancy journal, she’s commenting on her journaling when she does it, etc.

      If it’s disruptive to others or her own performance, she should be asked to tone it down some and limit disruptions to her work.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        Pregnancy journals don’t always look like regular journals or notebooks. They are usually the size of a regular notebook, or maybe a bit bigger. Sometimes they are very neutral but sometimes they are very loudly NOT. Think bright colors and sonagram pics.

        If the employee is only writing a few times a day I don’t think its a problem. If she is more focused on writing in the journal than paying attention to a meeting, then that can be addressed

    4. Cacofonix*

      First thing I thought of when I read this letter is ugh… the overt pregnancy journal writing in particular is a very gendered thing to do. And … let’s not keep adding to eye-rolly feminine behaviours that undermine our constant efforts to gain and hold equality at work. Do we gently explain this? Then I slapped myself upside my metaphorical head and told myself off. People and workplaces *always* had the obligation to adjust *their* norms to include all genders, not just make it safer to enfold women into the domain of men.

      So yeah, just the journaling.

  10. Bethlam*

    I worked in HR before retirement and had many employees use FMLA, both as the person needing the medical care and the spouse providing..

    Depending on the company, you might not have to use your PTO first (we didn’t at my company). Also, FMLA is 12 weeks, but doesn’t have to be consecutive and again, can vary by company. When my husband was in a bad traffic accident, I took a lot of time off the first couple of weeks, but worked days when other family pitched in with hospital sitting.

    When he came home, I was comfortable leaving him alone for a few hours, so I worked mornings and used FMLA to go home at lunchtime. When you’re ready to talk to HR, make sure you find out how YOUR company administers FMLA so that you understand your options.

    1. Bethlam*

      And sorry you’re going through this. Not to diminish what might be ahead, but when I was diagnosed, I swear the uncertainty at the beginning was worse than the treatment, for both of us. Once we knew what we were dealing with and had a road map for what came next, it was easier to deal with.

      1. Anon for this one*

        That was my experience (as the patient) as well, and both my oncologist and my therapist say it’s very common.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        “Well if you’re lucky… Woop, not lucky this time.” Over and over. It beats you down so hard.

      3. Totally Minnie*

        I’m a survivor, and I agree. That space of time when you have a diagnosis but no treatment plan is the worst part.

      4. LW #5*

        Thank you for sharing your experience with FMLA, and in general. It’s really, really hard not knowing. I hope you and your loved ones are all doing well now.

  11. Observer*

    #5 FMLA

    I’m so sorry you are dealing with this. Hopefully, you’ll get some reasonably good news and things will go well.

    Allison is correct. I just want to say that you don’t need to worry about “etiquette” around FMLA leave. You will need to document the fact that your husband is seriously ill, but you don’t need to provide a lot of detail beyond that. And you can use your leave for whatever makes your husband’s life easier and better.

    The only etiquette I would say you should think about is giving your manager a bit of a heads *if it’s practical* up once you have a better idea of what’s going on. So, for instance if you know that your husband is starting a series of treatments in a week, it would be good to tell your manager that you’ll be out every Tuesday for the next 6 weeks this week, rather than next Monday. And if things move too quickly for that, do say so. Like if you get a call from the doctor that they can fit your husband’s surgery in tomorrow, you’re doing it tomorrow. So you would tell your boss that there was a schedule change and you’ll be out tomorrow, and will let them know about schedule once you have more information.

    The idea here is that you’re obviously going to focus on your husband’s health, and no one should expect otherwise. And you will try to be a non-disruptive as is reasonable given the priority is doing whatever you need to do for him. And most of the time, really giving as much notice as you can of schedules is about as far as that goes.

    1. the cat's pajamas*

      If you think you will need FMLA, I recommend at least looking into the process, even if you don’t apply right away, and apply sooner than you think you need to. It can be a huge pain paperwork-wise, depending on how your HR handles it.

      Some states have paid family leave, which might be worth looking into, too. I have that, and didn’t bother with FMLA, but the paperwork is similar and it was still a huge pain. You have to get the medical facility to sign forms, and your HR has to sign a bunch of stuff.
      Make sure all the dates and treatment plans match on all the forms.
      I used it twice with intermittent leave. One employer went through a third party benefits company. I think it was supposed to ” help” but they ended up just being a middleman that created more delays and bureaucracy than the government!!! It was brutal and took a ridiculously long time to get approved. I had to contact them several times, being on hold for at least half an hour every time I called, etc.
      You will also have to fill in a timecard like sheet with the time you take and what you did, like to to a doctors appointment, helped with activities of daily living, etc.
      I’m sorry to hear this, I wish you minimal bureaucracy hurdles! Dealing with the healthcare system can already be stressful.

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        I applied for (intermittent) FMLA 6.5 years ago when my mother had a stroke. I went to her state and took care of her for the first three months then brought her back to live with me when FMLA ran out. Changed my work hours to 36 hrs/week and hired daytime caregivers. With hindsight, I wish I had changed to working 20 hrs/week and spent more time with her. After a year, she decided life wasn’t worth living after dealing with her lack of mental and physical abilities, and allowed herself to pass.
        Anyway, what I want to say is that I had very competent HR and managers, so I don’t remember the FMLA paperwork being difficult. But it could be that I was so focused on my mom that jumping thru whatever hoops they requested was only minor compared to supporting her in her time of need.
        Wishing you the best in your husband’s cancer recovery. I had surgery and 6 mo. chemo for colon cancer 9 years ago (where I used STD for surgery and intermittent FMLA during chemo) and surgery along with 25 radiation treatments for unrelated angiosarcoma in my abdomen 14 months ago (11 months after I’d retired). (Semi-Annual PET scan was last week and my appointment with oncologist is this afternoon.)

        1. LW #5*

          Thank you for your comment and kind wishes. I hope you’re doing well now and your appointment this afternoon went well, too.

      2. Observer*

        You will also have to fill in a timecard like sheet with the time you take and what you did, like to to a doctors appointment, helped with activities of daily living, etc.

        This is not universal by a long shot.

        And I wonder if they are even *allowed* to demand this.

      3. LW #5*

        Thank you for your comment. I learned today that my company handles FMLA through a third party, so… we will see how it goes, when the time comes.

    2. Sara without an H*

      Hi, LW#5: When I took FMLA, I spoke with my HR director before I talked with anybody else, just to get a sense of how the process worked. Judging from some of the comments upstream, a lot depends on how much experience your HR people have dealing with FMLA. But talk to HR first, get a clear idea of what they need and how they handle it.

      You might want to wait to speak to your manager until after you and your husband have had a chance to meet with his oncologist and get some specifics about what his treatment will look like. FMLA can be taken intermittently and that may be a good option for you. But get specifics from the oncologist before you and your manager work out how this will affect your work schedule.

      I’m a cancer survivor myself. Sending good thoughts and Jedi hugs to you and your husband.

      1. LW #5*

        Thank you so much for sharing your experience and for the good thoughts and Jedi hugs. Glad to hear that you are a survivor – I hope you are thriving!

  12. Ninjakiwi*

    L1: Worst case scenario, I’d say tip off the media or even the police if you think something illegal is happening (maybe medical abuse? Not sure if that’s a thing so don’t cite me, I’m not a lawyer) go to the dean of the school, or even the accrediting board of the clinic if you have to, and bring the letter that was written and explain how the bad behavior has affected patient outcomes and the program as a whole. It might lead to a fallout, but at this point, fallout may be needed to prevent harm to your patients and your team. The other commentators have some good options to

  13. Alz*

    LW1- Not necessarily advice but does she have any influence on your marks? In a situation where you can’t quit, how much power would she have to “fire” you.

    Could you cheerfully just push back in the moment “Oh, no Clinic Admin, actually they are here on time” or, in the middle of a tirade just say calmly “Sorry Clinic Admin, I am going to have to interrupt you there- you are getting a little loud”. It depends how much power she has over grades and marks but I have seen that as a very effective way of dealing with middle management when it was clear that no one was getting fired- Where I saw it the downtrodden staff had a thing where they would start singing “if your happy and you know it” as a group at the yeller- very funny to watch them going red in the face. It took effort I am sure and it might not be good for a professional reputation so you might not want to risk it. But funny as

    1. WellRed*

      I was wondering that too. When I started reading, I assumed the clinic director was the problem, not an admin reigning terror.

  14. Emmy Noether*

    L2 I’m kind of jealous that she has the energy to journal. I was happy about my pregnancies, but, had I journalled, the entries would mostly have read “uuuuuuuuurrrrggggh”.

    As others have said, try to let it go if it’s a few minutes here and there.

    2. Clisby*

      +100.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if she gets tired of journaling after awhile. I, at least, did not find pregnancy particularly interesting. Which was good – would that every pregnancy could be uneventful.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I wouldn’t be surprised if she gets tired of journaling after awhile.
        This definitely seems like something one does at most for one pregnancy (the first). And often just a few months or weeks of that.

        My advice to OP is to let it go for now, just as any other new hobby could be ignored. If it becomes ostentatiously not doing work because she has to spend 20 minutes journaling first–and it sounds like this is not remotely true at the moment–then talk about the journaling, as you would if she had an “ideas for redecorating” journal, or an online jigsaw habit.

    3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Yeah right now she is excited and Doing All the Things she said she would do. Keep a journal of her every thought and feeling during this beautiful time so she can share it with the child someday, planning out the perfect nursery, etc. Eventually she is going to hit the wall and just be trying to get comfortable while going to the restroom every 10 minutes.

      OP this has a definite end date. Let it ride for more than a week and see what happens.

      1. mbs001*

        She can journal at home on her own time. Doesn’t matter that it’s a pregnancy journal or other personal tasks, your office isn’t paying you to do personal tasks on work time.

        1. The esteemed governor*

          My office isn’t paying me to sit here and read AAM either, but I’m pretty confident lots of us reading and commenting here are doing just that… If the journaler’s work is fine, I’d stay out of it

          1. A Simple Narwhal*

            Well said! If Sansa is getting her work done (and it sounds like she is) and she’s not preventing others from getting theirs done, it’s not worth bringing it up.

            And introducing rigidity to work time without any cause can really backfire – something urgent comes up during lunch? Sorry, that’s break time, it will have to wait. Need to stay a few minutes late? Sorry, the day strictly ends at 5pm, can’t do work during non-work hours. Etc. Essentially if you’re going to micromanage their time to enforce the rules when it suits you, be aware that they’re going to micromanage their time to enforce the rules when it suits them.

  15. Metal Gru*

    Letter 3: interviewers asking how you handle difficulty. “Discuss it with my manager” isn’t necessarily the ‘obvious’ response, nor the correct one in many cases without qualification. I’m a manager of some people who are experienced individual contributors, and I’d expect a level of autonomy around difficulties that doesn’t default to “take it to the manager and let them decide what to do”. I would want to be looped into these things but it would typically be more like:
    – (if you couldn’t find the answer) I’ve looked in sources x, y and z and I asked Sally and Steve as I know they’ve worked on this area before but they hadn’t seen this specific error either. I googled the error message but nothing significant comes up which makes me think it’s an issue specific to us or a bug. Do you think we should reach out to the vendor for support?

    – (how do you handle it when you have a lot of work to do and can’t meet the deadlines) Here’s a list of the current tasks with the estimated time needed to complete each. As you can see, x only needs 2 more days but y is still only 50% complete and there’s enough uncertainty that I’ve put 4 weeks remaining but it could be up to 6 weeks, and then z keeps growing as requirements keep being added. I think even though x is due after y, it’s worth completing that first since it only needs 2 days. I also know Helen knows how to do y and may have some capacity.

    Both of these are ultimately “talk to the manager” but there’s a big difference between going through all reasonable options and then taking the facts to your manager vs encountering a hurdle and immediately escalating it. It depends on seniority but I wouldn’t be very impressed with someone that expects me to do all the thinking for them. I don’t think LW does, but.it could come off that way in an interview.

    1. Emmy Noether*

      I agree with this. I hire for qualified and fairly autonomous positions, and I’d expect them to go to the manager with at least a plan, and I’d expect them to solve minor problems by themselves and just inform the boss if it seems relevant information. This will vary by workplace and position, but if they’re asking, they’re probably expecting some level of autonomy.

      For finding answers, what would you do to find them before going to the boss (what does “can’t” find the answer mean to you? Because there are people where “can’t” involves zero effort).

      For prioritizing deadlines, come up with a plan, then alert your boss and get it approved/changed. Although depending on workplace, the boss may prefer to get involved earlier. I’d probably counter with a question on how priorities are usually set at this workplace (which is, btw, a good question to ask in general).

      For “how would we know you’re struggling?”, I admit that I haven’t got much. Possibly also “go to management with a plan”, that plan being training, offloading some work, reprioritizing, etc., depending on circumstances.

      1. Frosty*

        Yes, agreed. Especially on the knowledge/finding answers bit.

        There are many situations in which managers don’t (and can’t) have the knowledge of all the people they supervise. For example, I work in a team where everone of us has different area of expertise. There is some overlap, but not much. Our manager has broad overview knowledge in all our areas and some deeper knowledge in the area he was an SME in before he became a manager. If I’m stuck knowledge-wise, I’m welcome to discuss with my manager what I already tried in case he can help by connecting me with an expert in the wider corporation we belong to, but I couldn’t expect him to give me the answers.

    2. Yes*

      I also have never answered the question with “talk to my manager” but listed the things I’d try on my own before talking to my manager.
      But, either way, OP’s answer is fine. That’s how OP approaches problems and the answer will tell the interviewer if this will work in their field or not (or may even be expected).

    3. EllenD*

      I think with these questions, it’s about knowing that you, as the candidate, are willing to work things through and keep manager informed. This could be summarised as ‘no surprises’ – ie managers are informed about how you’re tackling problems or when you can’t resolve issues – and ‘research issue’ – so that when you go to the manager you can clearly set out the issue, the options considered and the pros and cons of each and timescale.

      1. Box of Rain*

        Yes, especially with the “how would we know you’re struggling” question. Do you know yourself well? Do you take time to self-reflect? What are the things you look for in yourself to know you’re struggling.

    4. Marion Ravenwood*

      Yeah, I think this is it. I got asked that question quite a bit when I was interviewing at the tail end of last year. My understanding was that interviewers wanted to hear how I would try to solve this problem on my own first (especially without a senior colleague around to ask), whether that’s googling for the answer, looking at shared files/how to guides, asking colleagues who might know etc, and then going to a manager once you’ve exhausted all those options.

      I think the deadlines question is slightly different in that that’s more about time management. Then it’s more of an answer like working out priorities in order and taking that to a manager to say “this is what I have on and how long I estimate it will take to do, I’ve prioritised the tasks this way because [reasons], is this right or would you suggest something else?”. Essentially though they’re both about having some level of self-sufficiency and showing that you’re taking initiative/trying to figure something out for yourself first before you escalate things.

    5. londonedit*

      Yes, I agree. I work in book publishing and I’ve always been asked some variation of questions like ‘how would you deal with a difficult author?’ and ‘how do you manage competing deadlines?’. In my role it’s my responsibility to deal with authors unless they become particularly difficult – at which point ‘I would escalate it to the editorial director’ is a perfectly acceptable answer. So I describe what I’d usually do – find out exactly what the author’s issue is, make suggestions, see if we can come to a compromise – and then if I ran out of options, I’d ask the boss to step in. And I think that’s something people are looking for – they want to know whether and at what point you’d escalate to a manager. They don’t want someone who can’t deal with problems on their own, but they also don’t want someone who will struggle on trying to deal with something when they really need to ask for help.

      When we’re interviewing people for junior editorial roles, which usually involve some level of admin/general support for the rest of the team, we tend to send them a short test before the interview that involves putting various tasks in order of importance, and then talking us through their thinking. We stress that there’s no right or wrong answer – we just want to know that they can look at a list of tasks and decide what to prioritise, and again, we want to hear them say things like ‘Well, this one is an email from an author who claims their work has been plagiarised, so that seems very serious – I think I’d make sure the editorial director is aware of it, and it would probably need to go to the legal department’ or something like that. We wouldn’t want someone to be saying ‘I’d tell the author I’ll investigate’ because that’s not in the remit of someone in an editorial assistant role, and we want someone who’s confident in identifying which things they can easily deal with and which things need to be escalated.

    6. hbc*

      I agree. I’d be unlikely to hire someone who simply said “I’d tell my manager” to those three questions, though I’d prompt with something that gives them a chance to clarify. Like “What kinds of things do you do before bringing it to the manager?” or “What would you do if your manager was unavailable?”

      Though all three of those questions together makes it sound like the hiring manager is replacing someone who quietly drowned in overwork and missed deadlines, so including some version of “I’d keep my manager in the loop” while focusing on how you’re prepared to handle the situations is good.

    7. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      For me, “go to my manager” would be a big red flag for lack of independence, initiative, and problem solving skills. I’d want to see people do other things first:

      * Look at internal documentation
      * Search external resources (in my field, things like Stack Overflow, technical articles, software docs)
      * Ask colleagues

      Running to a manager at the first sign of trouble strikes me as the act of someone very junior, which is not generally who we hire.

      If you’re interpreting “can’t” as “still can’t after trying all of the above” you should spell that out – “if I can’t figure it out after XYZ I’d talk to my manager”. It also help to mention about how long you’d spend on the problem before looping in your manager – they don’t want you flailing for a week! (If you’re in a field where regular stand-ups are the norm that part may not be necessary – if you mention two days in a row that you’re still trying to figure out that weird error your manager may decide it’s time for another approach).

    8. Box of Rain*

      Agreed. And FWIW, my answer—and the one I’m hoping for as an interviewer, too—is definitely not “go to my manager.” I want someone, even in entry level positions, to have a small amount of critical thinking. If every problem goes to your manager, your manager has no time to do their job.

      Interview tip: I love when someone “goes to their manager” with a solution, or two, to present to/discuss with them, and they work for a solution together.

    9. HonorBox*

      Totally agree.

      I’ve asked similar questions to these and while ultimately, you want to know that the person sees that clear and direct communication is the best way forward, you also want to see how they independently address things before escalating to a manager.

      “What do you do if you can’t find the answer when you’re working?”
      Say something that shows that you’d talk to others, look at internal documentation, read up on the topic. You don’t need to spend hours and days, but in some cases, it is a pretty quick way to get the answer you need before pulling the manager in.
      “How do you handle it when you have a lot of work to do and can’t meet your deadlines?”
      You want to show how you’re evaluating priorities and spending your time. If you ultimately need to go to your manager, can you show that you have a solution or two in mind.
      “How would we know you are struggling?”
      While this is a little harder to answer, I think it just shows how you approach difficult situations. Have you looked at other resources? Have you done some additional reading on a topic? Have you spoken to coworkers? Have you done something on your own before raising the concern with management?

      I think a lot of this can still be “clear and regular communication with my boss” but if you can add some detail that shows that you’re able to think independently and attempt to find solutions, that’ll help an awful lot.

    10. Gray Lady*

      As Alison said, I think the wording threw the LW off. Like LW, my instinctive interpretation of “can’t find the answer” is “I have already done everything within my own power to find the answer using any resources at my disposal, but haven’t found it.” This is especially likely if the interviewee is something who just naturally assumes that doing everything within your own power and finding your own resources is the the way to approach this, which is the kind of person you want! ISTM if an interviewer uses a question like that, it should be worded clearly enough so that the interviewee doesn’t interpret it this way because IMO that’s a perfectly reasonable way to interpret it.

    11. HR Exec Popping In*

      Yes, you want to explain all the things you would do before taking the issue to your manger (some which may be very obvious to you) and then if none of that worked you would talk to your manager. They are evaluating your problem solving skills and thought process. So don’t short change yourself by just jumping to the end.

    12. Wilbur*

      My first thought was that this sounds a lot like a behavioral interview and they might be looking for an answer in the STAR format (Situation/task, action, result). It might help to talk about a specific instance where one of these things happened. For the questions you mentioned, they’re trying to figure out if you can work independently, prioritize, if you’re able to ask for help and find resources when necessary.

  16. DannyG*

    My wife received a cancer diagnosis 3 years ago. Applied for intermittent FMLA as soon as possible. My employer used a 3rd party to handle, there was paperwork for both me and her physician ( his office was very good at dealing with that, turning it around in one day). That way we had all of the approvals lined up. Our process then required to notify management and the company handling FMLA of dates and times, but approval was automatically granted. PTO was used to ensure pay and benefits continued, thankfully I had enough to cover. Going back for the 3 year f/u next week, so far so good. (You may have to renew the application yearly)

    1. Anon for this one*

      I hope everything is good at the followup!

      As part of my cancer treatment I participated in a clinical trial where I worked with a very unpleasant study nurse (I’m glad she’s in research and not patient-facing!) and “follow-up” is definitely not the expansion of “f/u” that comes to mind from her reminders.

      1. I Have RBF*

        LOL! Yeah, a couple people at the hospital where my spouse was being treated I wanted to say “F/U” to…

        1. Grimalkin*

          I’m a family law paralegal. Usually I write out “follow-up” rather than abbreviating, but… well, there certainly are some client where “f/u” is appropriate. And they’re often the ones that need the most “f/u”s in the first place!

  17. bamcheeks*

    LW2, I’d gove it at least another 2-3 weeks before saying anything. Otherwise, it’s kind of like complaining that someone’s going to the gym too much in the second week of January. She MIGHT be part of the 2% who keeps it up for the whole pregnancy— but it’s quite likely that it’ll just settle down naturally and solve itself.

    1. Agent Diane*

      This!

      Also, as this is someone in her first professional job if you do talk to her you should maybe find a way to gently explain that one reason people don’t go around waving pregnancy journals all day in the workplace is that their colleagues may have had problems conceiving or carrying to term. People are much more private about when pregnancies don’t happen, or miscarry, or have to be terminated for medical reasons. They are also unlikely to say “please stop that” because they don’t want to spoil her happiness or share painful personal details. So could she simply be pregnant at work rather than be performatively pregnant?

      1. English Rose*

        That’s a really good point, thanks for the reminder. And I agree wait to see if the journaling tails off.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      “You can write in your pregnancy journal, or zone out in exhaustion: Choose one.”

      I recall a book I had spelling this out for exercise: If you have time to exercise, you have time to take a nap. Napping isn’t possible in more offices, but you can enter a vague fog where you just think about doughnuts for a bit as you stare into the distance.

  18. Mockingbird*

    LW 1, if admin is ignoring complaints that are affecting patients’ health, research how to file a complaint with whatever org accredits your clinic. If patients are complaining to their providers in sessions about the admin, make sure everyone knows how patients can file complaints and that they’re giving patients that information. It will help your clinic, and also, such patient education on how they can advocate for their care helps your patients. I had a horrible experience with a resident in such a clinic and a friend married to a doctor told me I didn’t have to put up with it and how to file a complaint. Mental health care is a delicate relationship and patients often don’t know they’re allowed to complain or how. And like others have said, contact the student newspaper and tell them you have a story. Student journalists have broken huge stories recently, and “clinic and department management inaction on staff and patient complaints endangers patient care” is a big story.

  19. Irish Teacher.*

    LW2, I really think the issue here is whether or not this is affecting her work. If she is less efficient, then I think you have standing to talk to her about it. You don’t even have to directly mention the pregnancy journal. You could just say, “we need you to give your full focus to work while you are here. I’ve noticed you’ve fallen behind on X task/kept a client waiting/left a coworker to complete y task on their own.”

    If it’s not interfering with her work, does it really matter? It might. There are jobs where the optics of this would be an issue like if it made clients feel unsure if they could approach her. But it also might not.

    1. Kisa*

      well, even if she was not as efficient as usual, i would not bother mentioning the journal. because 1) if she is less efficient, its more likely because she is pregnant, not because she writes a journal. And 2) the problem then would be the lack of efficiency and not the journal. so i would take my issue with that, if it was a problem.

    2. CityMouse*

      Before working on something that requires intense concentration I sort of have to prepare. For something super intense, I do an hour of cardio before. Sort of like a kid getting the wiggles our before they sit in class. Then I’m intensely productive for those few hours, then I’m exhausted. I was diagnosed with ADD as a child, so I don’t know how much of it is that.

      Point is, sure, you might see me getting my coffee and bopping around to a Broadway song for a few minutes, but that stuff is necessary to be able to have those intense work hours.

    3. mbs001*

      Another reason to tell her right away. This is a bad optic — especially as a new worker. But also, if she’s journaling constantly — as stated — it means she has the capacity to do more office work. If I see a employee doing things like this repeatedly, that’s the first thing I’d do. Assign them additional tasks. It may be only 5 minutes at a time but that adds up over the course of a day. And I strongly doubt she’s making up any of this time by working through lunch or working longer hours.

      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        You are a micromanager. I think your problem is that *you* don’t have enough to do, so you go looking for problems in others instead of assigning *yourself* more tasks. If you have enough time to constantly stare at your employees and worry about optics, that’s 5 minute at a time that adds up! I strongly doubt you’re making up your wasted time by doing real work instead.

  20. GammaGirl1908*

    For LW4, it’s not a court of law. You don’t have to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. “He’s a freelance llama groomer” is enough of the truth.

    (You could also add something like “and a day trader,” because I’m sure that’s true as well.)

    It might help you to remember that lots of people have sources of income that aren’t obvious when you ask them about their job. Lots of people have alimony, or child support, or a trust fund, or family money, or lottery winnings, or an inheritance, or an insurance settlement, or a military pension, or an investment property, or investments, or whatever that mean that they have money their job doesn’t explain. They are not obligated to make up lies and excuses about it when someone asks them what they do for a living.

    But either way, decide what you’re going to say, or ask him what he says, and just stick with it, because everybody doesn’t need to know the level of detail you’re concerned about.

    1. Spooz*

      +1 to asking how he sees himself. No need to tiptoe around it and guess! “How do you typically answer questions about your work, as you don’t have a full time job?”

      3. A Poster Has No Name*

        Agree with this, it was my first thought. He’s right there, and it’s totally fair to ask him how he would like the LW to respond to those type of questions.

    2. Morning Reader*

      So, “he doesn’t work, he’s my boytoy” would be out of line? Or “he’s rich and lazy AF so he doesn’t work” or “fortunately he doesn’t have to work” or “he’s independently wealthy” (I think this phrase was invented precisely for this situation.)
      But seriously the answer is ask him how he’d like his situation presented. The underlying problem may be that you are embarrassed or don’t respect his lack of energy or productivity. It’s old-fashioned now but has been frequently observed how much men’s identities are tied up in their work. Also applies to other genders but the expectation is particularly strong for males.
      I know a few other ‘trust fund baby” types and they all have jobs or run businesses. So, what does he actually do with his time? If not work, surely there is some other activity, (gardening, volunteering, tutoring) that he does that could be referenced. Is the problem that he can’t be defined by work, or that he essentially does nothing to contribute to the world and you are outwardly or inwardly appalled by that?
      Followup question, if the genders were reversed, would this even be a problem? Could it be “he’s a stay at home boyfriend but he’s auditioning for the Real Househusbands of ourcityname.”

      1. Jenesis*

        If the genders were reversed, it wouldn’t be a problem, but that’s because our society is habituated to think of men as career people and women as homemakers and caretakers. Especially if a woman is a SAHM, people are less likely to assume that she’s rich and more likely to 1) assume that her husband is rich or 2) even feel sympathy for her on the assumption that finances are tight, if they live in a high COL area.

        I think “rich and lazy AF” is the exact impression that LW4 is trying to avoid people having of their boyfriend, as those types tend not to garner a lot of empathy from the majority of the population.

        Hobbies and volunteering are fine answers (e.g. If the hobby is gardening, it is technically true to say “he’s a gardener” without specifying that he doesn’t make money doing it). If you don’t want to actually say what your boyfriend spends his time doing (either because it’s embarrassing, or because he is actually lazy) you could go with “Ugh, I get asked this all the time and it’s so boring – how about that [subject change]?” Most people will probably assume he’s a tax accountant or something equally dull and the loop will have been closed.

    3. Thomas*

      “ask him what he says”

      100% agreed with this. And really, if he’s OK with it, what’s so wrong with an answer that makes it open he lives off unearned income?

      1. Karriegrace*

        Meh…I come from a wealthy family so I was able to stay home with my kids while my husband worked at a job that definitely could not support our lifestyle. You’d be surprised how nosy AND judgmental people are about that kind of thing. (Our lifestyle was that we had a 3 bedroom house and 2 cars and took the kids on a nice vacation occasionally. Not like…we had a yacht).

        1. Ali + Nino*

          fwiw, unfortunately, for many people that lifestyle feels as out of reach as a yacht. the nosiness/judgment were uncalled for, but most certainly had more to do with those people’s feelings and projection.

        2. Lime green Pacer*

          LOL – Technically, I do have a yacht. It’s an 18-foot-long sailboat with two single sleeping berths and a camping toilet. But it belongs to the yacht category of sailboat!

    4. Elizabeth West*

      *sigh* I wish I had money my job doesn’t explain.

      This comment — you’re not obligated to give out detailed info about your partner. This is one of those questions people ask as a conversation filler. A quick and easy surface answer will suffice.

      1. Saturday*

        Yeah, I think people mostly ask that for something to say. I wonder if when OP answers in a vague way, she’s piquing people’s interest. My advice: be boring.

    5. Ashley*

      I was wondering if the LW and their husband were writers (or something similarly creative).

      Writing is my full-time job, and you’d be amazed at how many follow-up questions people have about it, to the point at which it feels like I’m going through an interview every time someone asks what I do. It does feel intrusive, and it’s hard to shut down questions without being rude because the profession feels fascinating to others — admitting being a writer is like catnip to non-writers. Even strangers DEMAND a huge amount of detail. They ask a litany of questions without thinking twice. When people ask what I write, even if I say “a lot of different things,” I’ll get follow-up questions on where and when they might have read something I’ve written, what it’s like to write, people I’ve interviewed, etc. To me, it’s a job. To others, it’s a chance to explore something completely foreign to their own work experience and a little sexy.

      I think the advice is good — “freelance” is likely to shut down a lot of questions, because it’s vague. But almost always I have to turn the questions around on the other person — get into interview mode so that it’s not about me anymore. Even asking someone what books they like, and responding with my own (which is a completely different genre than my work) does change the subject.

      2. sofar*

        I can relate! I’m in a field that a lot of (ahem retired Boomers) don’t think is a “real job,” and I’m from an area (small town, upper midwest) where it’s really common to be nosy about jobs, salary, etc. People will literally tell you they are doing X for $Y an hour and expect to be promoted to Z for $A an hour within the year and then ask you what you do and go, “Oh how much does someone make doing that?” It’s uncomfortable and maddening. I just always repeat, “I do llama grooming.” “I make enough to get by, can’t ask much for much more than that,” until they decide I’m just lying to them, am probably and Antifa operative, and give up.

    6. Mynona*

      The answer is to ask what he wants you to say, as others have suggested. Or if llama grooming is his passion, then say that and answer subsequent questions plainly.

      In more affluent circles, “private investor” is often used. When I began working in the arts, I was surprised by how many of the male board members listed their profession as “private investor.” I thought it meant they were investment bankers. I quickly learned it was a euphemism for “independently wealthy.” (The women never had to justify their apparent lack of career. They were “philanthropists” or “community volunteers.”)

      I have also heard, “I manage my family’s estate/assets but llama grooming is my passion.” Which is true and fine! It would be easier for you if your friend could be more open about how he earns a living.

    7. AMT*

      Right, I knew a guy who worked as a flight attendant with a pension from a completely different career. He didn’t feel the need to qualify it with “BTW, this is not my only means of support.” For myself, I’m slowly changing careers and don’t feel uncomfortable calling myself a Llama Grooming Researcher in llama research settings even though I only do it part-time. The primary money source isn’t the point. People just want to make conversation and get to know you.

  21. Molly Millions*

    LW#2: I’m sure on any given day you might catch employees making grocery lists/updating their personal calendars/tracking caloric intake on work time. Unless the pregnancy journaling is “making a scrapbook/writing an essay” levels of involved, I wouldn’t treat it any differently.

    Also, I don’t know exactly what a pregnancy journal is, but is there a chance there could be a medical symptom tracking element to it (e.g. making note of her energy levels/nausea triggers/etc. throughout the day)?

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      We all salute the worker who set up a full on easel to paint in her cubicle, and was mad that her coworkers wouldn’t stop working to help her with the afternoon jigsaws.

      (I assume that office had management like LW 1’s.)

    2. Wingo Staww*

      I agree. We all do this, I really don’t see how it’s a big deal. I honestly think scolding her for using her journal would come across as abrasive/hurtful. I would just let it go.

    3. ReallyBadPerson*

      I thought the same thing. I don’t want to google pregnancy journal because I don’t want ads for the things clogging up my feed, but I assumed it was a symptom tracker, possibly for a high risk pregnancy.

    4. ArlynPage*

      One reason a pregnant person might have a journal nearby at all times is to track baby’s movement. A healthy fetus moves at least 10 times in 2 hours (which obviously cannot be felt by the pregnant person until about halfway through). Most people don’t feel a need to record the movement every day, but if it is a higher risk pregnancy, a person might be in the middle of a work task, notice movement, and add a tick to their journal, for their own peace of mind.

      Other possible reasons to keep a pregnancy journal: the person has gestational diabetes and needs to keep a food log (not that this requires them to carry the journal all day long), the person has hyperemesis gravidarum or some other health issue and needs to keep track of symptoms in order to report them accurately to a healthcare provider.

      I say this as a person who has been pregnant twice and never felt the need to keep a journal, but those are some possible reasons to keep it nearby all day. I don’t think any of the above reasons actually take much time; I find it ironic that people on AAM are commenting multiple times about how she shouldn’t be doing personal tasks on work time… they would be appalled at how many of these commenters are _currently_ being paid while taking a moment to browse AAM!

    5. HalesBopp*

      The line that sticks out to me the most is “My goal is to create a comfortable, low-distraction environment for staff and I am concerned this is going to turn in to a ‘thing.’ ”

      I would be curious if others in the office have 1) even noticed this person’s journaling and 2) actually find it distracting. It seems like LW2 is a bit hyper-focused on this and has preemptively decided that others must find it problematic. If no one is complaining, and it is not impacting this person’s work, this really feels like something to let go.

    6. Whomst*

      From my experience of pregnancy and pregnant people, I think that it’s far more likely to be a medical symptom tracking thing than “I’m writing thoughts about my baby” and it seems so strange to me that people are assuming anything other than “it’s a medical thing.”

      1. SnackAttack*

        Yeah. I’m currently pregnant (just finished up my first trimester). Of course, everyone is different, but for most people, the first few months mostly involve sickness, body pains, and exhaustion, rather than bubbly, glow-y feelings. Heck, I’m 14 weeks and my fetus is only just starting to resemble something close to a baby-like blob on the ultrasound. It’s obviously still really cool to me, but my point is that she’s more likely to be writing that she hasn’t had a bowel movement in 24 hours than scrapbooking ultrasound pics, haha.

  22. Spooz*

    #4: My guess would be that people are asking lots of follow up questions because they sense that LW is giving them a weird answer that doesn’t fit in with the rest of the conversation and it comes across as “mysterious” – either the childish kind where you’re deliberately fishing for someone to ask questions, or genuinely trying to obscure something and they can’t work out why.

    So the rest of the conversation is in cheerful paragraphs and then the LW answers in a single phrase about which she is clearly uncomfortable. They can tell something’s up!

    I think the LW needs to practice reframing these conversations in her head so that she can answer them in a similarly relaxed and unfurtive manner to how she answers other small talk.

    1. bamcheeks*

      I agree with re-framing. I have a few friends who don’t work (or whose partners don’t work) because of chronic health issues, and they tend to find these conversations divide into two:

      1. people who are just making small talk, ie. looking for conversational leads, and who will happily pick up any cheerfully offered alternative topic or twist on the question. So “what does your partner do?” –> “Freelance llama groomer, which gives him plenty of free time for his real passion, crocheting kitten costumes!” “Wow, really, what kind of costumes?!” But if your only answer is, “he does some llama grooming”, they’ll follow up with, “Oh cool. So is that more therapeutic grooming, or does he do the show llamas too?” Not cos they’re prying, but because they are trying to keep the conversation going and that’s the only hook you’ve given them.

      2. people who are think it’s Very Important to figure out your household income, tax bracket, class, proximity to Respectability, etc, and will keep pushing if they’re not satisfied with the answer. These are the ones who will ask follow up questions and try to zero in on the AMOUNT and STYLE of llama grooming he does, or which LLAMA GROOMING CERTIFICATIONS he has, even if you offer alternative conversational paths that you’re clearly more comfortable with.

      The key thing to remember is that at some point, the latter group of people are being RUDE, and you don’t owe them that information. If they keep pushing past politely offered alternative topics, it’s OK to push back, and it’s OK to be a little irritated! But if you can comfortably offer alternative conversational pick-up points, you’ll probably find most people are in the former group.

    2. Marion Ravenwood*

      Yeah, I wonder if there’s something about how she’s wording it or her tone that’s making people think he’s unemployed and she’s embarrassed about it for some reason.

      1. metadata minion*

        Though in that case people need to quit being jerks and stop asking followup questions when someone obviously doesn’t want to talk about something.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I definitely agree.It’s best to follow the boyfriend’s lead.

        A friend from my hometown inherited a large amount of money from his 1% grandparents and didn’t need to have an employer. That didn’t mean he got to take it easy: He was full time for his family, managing his and his siblings’ investments.

        He gave himself a job title of independent portfolio manager.

        Just the appearance of a job reduced weird reactions and the number of times he was hit up for loans and gifts and… er… opportunities to change his marital status. (He was married.)

    3. londonedit*

      I think people will ask questions if the answer isn’t a straightforward ‘He’s a lawyer’ or ‘He works in engineering’ or whatever. I remember the same thing happening to me when I was freelancing – I’d say ‘I’m a freelance editor’ and people would follow up with ‘Oh! What do you edit? Do you have many clients? What sort of things do you work on? Do you work from home? Is it like being a contractor?’ etc etc. Some people would even get right into ‘Oh, what’s the pay like for that? Do you have much work? Can you support yourself doing that??’ (!) There were far more follow-up questions than I get now, when I say ‘I’m an editor, I work for [Publisher]’. I just think anything that doesn’t fit neatly into people’s expectations for ‘jobs people do’ will invite more questioning. But I do agree that if there’s anything in the OP’s tone that suggests they’re not comfortable talking about it, people might pick up on that and ask more questions.

      I definitely think the OP should just try to be matter-of-fact – ‘He’s a llama groomer’ and then if necessary ‘Oh, he’s freelance so he works with various clients’ – and then ask a question to turn it back to the other person.

      1. londonedit*

        And then, if people really won’t leave it alone and they ask which clients, you can always say something like ‘Oh, well last year he worked on a great project with London Zoo – they were looking for someone to totally overhaul their grooming procedures, and so he was heading up that project. That was really cool’. And then you go for the ‘So, how do you know Jane?’ redirection.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      I think the LW needs to practice reframing these conversations in her head so that she can answer them in a similarly relaxed and unfurtive manner to how she answers other small talk.

      I agree with your whole comment, and I think one thing that the LW should add into her practice is changing the topic! So something along the lines of:

      “He’s a freelance llama groomer. I don’t know much about what he’s working on right now. What panels are you looking forward to attending at this conference?”

      “He’s really into gardening and currently taking over our backyard with rutabaga and kohlrabi. Does anyone in your family like to garden?”

      “He’s pretty selective about what projects he takes on so nothing currently, but he tends to like work featuring X and Y. What is your spouse up to these days?”

      That way, instead of prying more into the boyfriend’s (lack of) career, they have a question to answer about a related or new topic of conversation.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        > …”rutabaga and kohlrabi…”
        … So I am in the market for new recipes! Do you have any?”

    5. Cadillac*

      LW4: I am in a similar though slightly different situation. My husband has a trust fund (at the level of “comfortable safety net” not “never work a day in your life”). It enabled him to pursue a low-paid passion career — he’s now given up the passion career and is looking for more “regular” work but doing it very slowly, since he doesn’t need money to live on right now.

      A few points of advice:
      – As others have said, try not to be weird about it! Ask yourself whether/why it makes you uncomfortable to talk about. Learn more about how your boyfriend thinks of it/talks about it and follow his lead.
      – I personally frequently use “he’s between jobs” or “he’s in a career transition” or “he’s between jobs and working on some passion projects at the moment”, in a breezy tone, to indicate that he’s out of work but it’s not a big worry for us. That does get friendly follow-up questions about the past/future careers/projects but it’s all good since I don’t mind talking about it. One thing I DON’T need to add is that he’s been in this “career transition” “between jobs” for multiple years :)

    6. Strive to Excel*

      My guess was that the “llama grooming” is a job that is perceived as being really cool but not profitable; something in the freelance arts category , or deep into the nonprofit world. People’s internal response to that sort of job is often “how do you make enough money to live on it, and is there a way I can pull it off so that I can escape my cubicle of sadness”.

    7. Green Goose*

      I had a similar reaction to this question. I find people interesting and when I’m in social situations or networking situations I like to ask follow-up questions. I feel like if I were at a networking event that related to my job (which I’m passionate about) and the person I was speaking to told me that their partner also worked in our same field then I probably would ask follow-up questions. “Oh, they do freelance in our field? How cool, what type of projects have they been working on lately?” I’d be genuinely curious, not trying to pry.
      If the person said they weren’t working at the moment I would definitely not pry past that. But I think if OP is in a space with others who share the same role as her, then if she mentions that her partner also works in that space, there will be follow-ups.

    8. BB*

      You can also give the impression you just don’t know that much about what he does – this is what I always did (true in my case, I worked in healthcare and my hubby was a systems analyst so I really didn’t understand much about what he did). Something along the lines of “I don’t really understand his job but he enjoys it” and then pivot to something else.

  23. r..*

    LW1,

    if I understand you correctly the clinic’s “clients” would be more appropriately called “patients”. As such relevant medical standards of care, based on your jurisdiction and industry norms, attach to all employees who are in contact with patients, or provide services to them.

    I don’t think yelling at patients, or gaslighting them about their appointments, would meet those standards of care. Additionally your admin suggests esoterics over therapy to patients; this is going to be very fact- and jurisdiction-specific, this would need to be reviewed by a competent local lawyer, but this might constitute giving medical advice without required license.

    All of this sounds like several dog’s breakfasts worth of potential liability to the clinic operator; legal/compliance might be interested in it.

    1. knitted feet*

      ‘Clients’ is commonly used in the field and perfectly appropriate. But yes, standards of care should apply.

  24. FMLA*

    LW 5: if your company has EAP, that might be who you call about FMLA. I did let HR and my boss know I was going out when my daughter was born early; however, HR wasn’t the people that actually handled my FMLA. It was a company like Mutual of Omaha. MoO is also who worked with my doctor and me on the documentation approving me to go back to work. If you do have EAP, you could call them now and get more information about how FMLA works at your company.

    When I’ve had employees that needed FMLA because of medical stuff for their spouses, they used intermittent FMLA, and worked with an outside firm on when they were taking it. I gave them the phone number for EAP, and that’s who they worked with vs. HR. So sorry about your husband!!

  25. Elaine*

    #5, first I want to wish you and your spouse all of the best. I am currently both a cancer patient and the person who handles FMLA for a large llama grooming facility. I would add to other people’s advice in a couple of ways. If your company adheres to the strict guidelines of only 12 weeks in a year of leave and then your job protection is gone then I recommend the following. Wait until you meet with the oncologist to come up with a plan. I also apologize in advance for the next part as I personally think it is barbaric that people need to plan like this but be careful of your usage at the beginning of this process. We have had situations where employees have taken time to support their family at the beginning (when they didn’t physically need it). And then didn’t have the time later in the year when they did. Please don’t shoot the messenger as I am truly trying to help. If your employer allows for general leaves of absences you might be able to do that as well. Good luck sending positive energy your way.

    1. LW #5*

      Thank you for sharing your advice, experience, and kind wishes, Elaine. Sending positive energy your way, as well.

  26. Nonsense pt2*

    Chiming in with my experience for LW5: when my mom got sick last year, the first thing I did was let my manager know what was going on so they could cover my immediate absence, and he also gave HR the head’s up that I’d need intermittent FMLA. Once we had a treatment plan in place, I followed up with HR, they sent me some paperwork with standard questions and also required my mom’s doctor’s sign-off, and it was officially approved two days after I returned it. I was required to use my PTO first to cover my time away and I had to note when it was for FMLA so they could track time, and they did follow up when I got close to my originally guessed end date to see if I needed to renew the paperwork (I still had plenty of time since ot was intermittent leave, but because I had stated an end date they needed to check).

    Good luck to you and your husband. The waiting for a plan is the worst part.

  27. Cthulhu's Librarian*

    LW 1: Your co-directors unfortunately sound spineless. But you’re working in a clinical capacity, which means you have a lot of options here, and also an ethical obligation to take them.

    The impact on the graduate students is something you need to flag to program supervisors and deans. If you don’t get prompt action, you need to continue pushing higher – even if that means reaching all the way to the Dean of the entire university. Being on the administrative side of academia, I’ve seen the ton of falling rocks that comes down on program directors and department heads who ignore real issues that are raised by PhD candidates and grad students who are willing to escalate things. Contrary to the popular sentiment that no one cares about grad students, most institutions turn out to care quite a lot, but many grad students never push things hard enough to find out.

    Additionally, if you’re working in a clinic, you should have received training about how to file patient safety complaints. Someone who is gaslighting your patients and denying them services (by sending them away from their appointments), giving unsolicited and unqualified medical advice (recommending crystals over services), and being abusive to patients (by yelling) is definitionally a patient safety issue. If you are not reporting this through your patient safety system, you are failing in your duty to the population you serve. If you never received training on how to report this (or just don’t remember what it was), you need to look at your documentation and find the correct numbers and make the call.

    As others have pointed out, if you’re not getting motion there, you need to look at accrediting agencies, licensing agencies, and other things. What this admin is doing is beyond the pale – in a healthcare environment, it would merit immediate suspension and termination after an investigation. In all but the most dysfunctional of universities, it will at least lead to the admin being reassigned into a non-client facing role.

    1. Jojojo*

      Jumping on your great commenet to add a small thing: LW 1, if your university has a students’ union or some other form of representation for undergrads, it might be good to talk to them, even if they are not technically representatives for grad students. IME undergrad student representatives tend to be much less afraid of conflict with uni structures than grad students (and are much better protected against retaliation). YMMV of course, but I think they could be a helpful ressource.

  28. lyk*

    LW#5, I hope things go well and your husband has a quick recovery! I’d just like to add that you can request intermittent FMLA which means you can use a few hours here and there as you need it rather than taking the whole 12 weeks off at one time. That’s what I do for my elderly parents so I can take them to doctor’s appointments and help them out when they need extra support. It means I can stretch out those 12 weeks of FMLA throughout the year and not run through all my sick leave once. (Your needs might be different.) My company has two different forms–one if I’m requesting leave for myself or one where I need leave for a family member. It gets signed once a year by my parent’s doctor (any one of their docs can sign the form) and it’s processed through our HR department. In my experience, doctors are thrilled if you fill it out for them so all they have to do is glance over it and sign. My company is fine with a fairly vague form. I do my best to guesstimate how much time off I’ll be taking (X hours/month). I don’t list my parents’ specific medical diagnosis (they are private people) but I do state that it is an FMLA covered disability and what I do for them (help with transportation, meals, etc.) I think there was one other short form at the very beginning that I submitted to my supervisor which just informed them I applied for intermittent leave, but that may have been internal to my company. I believe your company can also choose if it’s 12 weeks per calendar year or a rolling year so you may want to confirm which one they use just so you know. Best of luck to you both!

    1. I'm an NP now*

      I fill these forms out frequently as part of my work in family medicine – and yes, go right ahead and fill it out ahead of time if you’re comfortable doing it! Otherwise, we see them enough that it’s easy enough to do right at your appointment (for a family member, I would be fine doing it without an appointment as long as their time off needs are clear).
      I recommend putting down the maximum that you think you might need in intermittent leave – as others have said, you don’t have to use it all. Example – if you’re not sure if you’re going to need a half day or a whole day for each appointment, put that you’ll need the whole day. Or if appointments might be every 2 weeks or sometimes every week, put every week. Then you’re covered if you need the higher amount – but you can always take a half day every 2 weeks if that’s all you need.
      All the best for you and your husband, OP

  29. HonorBox*

    LW1 – Because you say “departmental clinic” I have to believe there’s a much more formal connection between the university and the clinic’s operation than there would be if you were placed in an external clinic. Use that to your advantage. While the clinic co-chairs aren’t doing something, someone within the university can. This is part of your education and you’re providing services that benefit the clinic, and this is true whether you’re paid or not. If this admin is creating an environment that is hostile (and I’m using hostile not necessarily to mean hostile work environment… but yelling and cursing is hostile – see yesterday’s letter from the yeller) she is not representing the clinic or the university well.

    Start with the chair of the department, or whoever would more directly oversee the clinic. Someone has to have some oversight over the co-directors, right? Especially if the admin is rude and unprofessional to clients, that’s a big problem. If she’s recommending treatments that are outside of normal care, and she’s not licensed or authorized to do so, that can be a huge problem for sure.

    If the department chair isn’t open to making a fix, escalate further. This is something that will likely reflect poorly on the university, either because patients won’t use the clinic or because someone is going to use the crystals and not get the treatment they really need.

  30. Falling Diphthong*

    LW5, I am sorry this is happening to both of you and wish you well.

    When I had cancer, my husband didn’t use any FMLA. He was able to flex his time to meet me for appointments (pre-covid), take PTO on days I had surgery, and work remotely for a few days after that. (He’s senior, valued, and in a job that can part of the time be remote, all of which mattered for that flexibility.)

    Cancer of a family member can require that level of flexible arrangements for caregiving, and it can require much more, so it’s going to be hard to predict this early what you would need. People can also respond to treatment differently–I found radiation like being run over by a truck, while a friend was a little tired, and others everywhere in between.

    1. LW #5*

      Thank you so much for your good wishes and for sharing your experience. I hope that you and your friend are cancer-free now, and that you, your friend, and husband are all thriving.

  31. Anon PhD*

    Per LW1, I’m also in a PhD program. For years, we requested raises. Our stipends were on the lower end in comparison to other graduate programs outside of the university, as well as other programs within the university (and our department is high for the university, in terms of money making, research output, and patents). What finally got the department to listen to us was when people anonymously put up posters during recruitment weekend, where admitted students were given tours and wined and dined to try to get them to attend. These posters detailed some of the things I mentioned and urged prospective students to “consider whether they can really afford to get their PhD at [university].” They take recruitement VERY seriously, so there was almost immediately high level meetings, and we got a large raise (like 8k) the next cycle. Maybe there’s some kind of recruitment you can target this way?

    3. Jinni*

      I like this one. I’ve seen this kind of action at graduate schools (one state school in California and another in Maryland) where they need the $$ coming in the door more than they care about the current students. At several schools I know that graduate programs were money makers and needed for that reason (whereas undegrad had a completely different funding structure not completely dependent on tuition).

  32. my four cents worth*

    to the phd in the clinic – if it’s legal in your state (one consent state like tx for example) – i’d strongly suggest recording her inappropriate activities secretly until you have a collection that’s shocking enough to force action, then put it out on social media. you’ll be amazed how quickly “nothing can be done” will change to her getting fired once she’s embarrassing the organization and the leadership. just try to keep it as anonymous as you can obviously. the org leadership cares about their reputations, they clearly dont care about how their customers and employees are being treated.

    1. Pocket Mouse*

      Very bad idea to record interactions with or discussions regarding clients. Very, very bad idea.

      1. Jennifer Strange*

        Yeah, definitely wouldn’t encourage secret recordings (even if it weren’t in a health field, but especially because it is!) That said, I WOULD encourage those clients to make their own complaints, and let them know where they can direct those complaints.

    3. Cthulhu’s Librarian*

      This is very bad advice – recording within a clinic environment where you may capture conversations to or about clients/patients is governed by many more laws and regulations than a just the one party consent laws of the state.

      Do not do this. You will likely get fired and bounced from the program if you do.

    4. Observer*

      i’d strongly suggest recording her inappropriate activities secretly until you have a collection that’s shocking enough to force action, then put it out on social media.

      Only do that if you want to NEVER EVER work in any sort of medical, educational, or other highly regulated field ever again. Because there is no way to do this without violating a whole host of rules and regulations.

      Which means that there are potential legal ramifications. And also, no one in an information sensitive field is going to want to take a risk on someone who would consider sharing this much highly sensitive and legally protected data in the most public fashion.

  33. The esteemed governor*

    For #4, what does your boyfriend. say when someone asks what he does? Can you say that, or better yet just ask him what he would prefer.

  34. my four cents worth*

    for the woman dating the trust fund baby – it’s simple. his trust is no doubt invested in something. just say he’s an investor. he is. you’re not even obfuscating. he’s living off of investments. no shame in that.

    1. AMT*

      That could work if that’s truly how the boyfriend wants to be seen by other people, but the reason other people are asking is to get to know the LW’s and their boyfriend’s life, and his investing probably isn’t very interesting beyond providing income. If people want to know what he does all day, the answer is probably not “manage his investments,” so the LW needs an answer they’re actually comfortable talking about (e.g. hobby, part-time gig, etc.).

  35. EA*

    For #4, I’d go with “He’s freelancing right now” or “he’s doing some consulting work”. If pressed you could always say he’s between projects right now. (Sounds like my experience in DC – where all forms of chatting lead to kinda nosy questions about work!)

  36. Bill and Heather's Excellent Adventure*

    LW4, I feel for you. People are nosy and if this is a small industry that will make them even more curious (curiouser and curiouser) because they’re aware your partner occasionally grooms llamas, but isn’t doing it all day every week. You could ask your partner what he says when people ask him or just talk about his hobbies. If he does a lot of travelling or volunteering, you could mention that.

    1. MassMatt*

      I think the reason the LW is getting so many follow up questions is that the answer they are giving is vague and sounds unusual or mysterious. Come up with a more boring answer if you prefer not to talk about his income or job status.

      1. Jinni*

        I think it could be because he’s male. As a woman who ‘retired’ early, nearly zero people had any follow up questions. My ex said I was writing or renovating one house or another, or whatever. I said, “I keep busy,” and literally no one asked any more questions.

  37. Rebekah*

    #3 It could be that they’re concerned by something they’re getting from OP, but if they’re asking a bunch of similar questions it could be that they are trying to avoid whatever issues the last person in the job had. Just like employees can be haunted by a bad former boss, bosses can be haunted by a bad former employee and go into interviews determined that whatever happens we won’t get an employee that does X again. However without that context their obsession with X can seem weird and imbalanced.

  38. Lurker*

    #1 the clients/patients are going to have to be the ones to complain about her behavior. Does any of the behavior rise the level of being unethical? If so the students who come to this clinic for services could file a complaint with the university or the licensing board if she herself is a licensed therapist/clinician. Now bear in mind if you take this route she may take steps to make things harder for you.

  39. mbs001*

    Another reason to tell her right away. This is a bad optic — especially as a new worker. But also, if she’s journaling constantly — as stated — it means she has the capacity to do more office work. If I see a employee doing things like this repeatedly, that’s the first thing I’d do. Assign them additional tasks. It may be only 5 minutes at a time but that adds up over the course of a day. And I strongly doubt she’s making up any of this time by working through lunch or working longer hours.

        1. Wingo Staww*

          Exactly, maybe it’s just the memory of that darn french fry machine still beeping in my brain 18 years later…

    2. AMH*

      I am grateful that my managers have all understood that people are human and don’t work at 100% capacity every single day. Whether it’s a big medical moment like this (pregnancy is…) or a personal crisis, there are times where we all aren’t at perfect max efficiency. Loading people up with work as punishment seems like a management failure, to be honest.

    3. Observer*

      This is a bad optic

      Why? That’s really the fundamental issue. The idea that it’s a “bad look” to journal is just weird. It’s like somehow pregnancy is really something shameful and to be swept under the rug, and something that people should pretend is not happening.

      It may be only 5 minutes at a time but that adds up over the course of a day

      Even if it were as much as 5 minutes, it still does not necessarily add up. And even if it does, it doesn’t mean that she actually has the bandwidth or time to take on new tasks because it’s not always so easy to consolidate the scattered couple of minutes here and there into one time block where something actually significant can get done.

    4. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Again, nope. You have too much time on your hands. You are wasting company resources. *You* need to assign *yourself* more work. You are wasting company time worrying about what other people might be thinking about “optics” instead of tangible work product.

      You don’t know how to manage, so you do this instead. You could use some of your wasted work time here learning from Alison and reading her book.

      Also, forcing employees to work through breaks is illegal.

    5. Ambar Dawn*

      “it means she has the capacity to do more office work.”

      If your business makes more money from an employee than they are paid, that means the business has the capacity to increase pay. If you don’t do this, your expectation to take as much as possible without also giving as much as possible is just a one-sided sense of entitlement.

  40. Jennifer Strange*

    #1 – I wonder if the clients/patients would be willing to speak out about how they’ve been treated, either to the higher-ups or (if necessary) to the press. Sometimes having the situation aired out publicly forces their hand to make changes.

    #2 – I’m not sure what kind of journal this is, but it’s very possible she has some sort of high-risk or otherwise unique pregnancy and has been instructed by her OBGYN to track certain things for health reasons. If so, I’d encourage you to approach this in the same way you would any health accommodation. Even if that’s not it, unless it’s actually affecting her work I’d let it go.

  41. CraigT*

    OP4, your guy invested well, and he’s managing his investments. He’s also very private about his wealth, and would not appreciate you going into more detail. So don’t. people asking for more info are being rude.

    1. Silver Robin*

      LW 4 already knows all of that and is asking for help with how to ward off the nosy questions. what does “so don’t” actually look like? Stony silence? a breezy redirect? there are options here

      1. Manic Sunday*

        I read it as the suggested script for people who won’t stop asking about OP4’s partner’s work:
        Q: What does your boyfriend do?
        A: He made some savvy investments early on, so now he’s mainly managing that portfolio.
        Q: Oh wow, what kind of investments?
        A: He’s pretty private about it so I won’t go into more detail.
        Q: But but but
        A: I have to leave it at that, thanks for understanding.

  42. epicdemiologist*

    #1, if the clinic director is a licensed professional, they are risking their license by abusing patients and giving snake-oil recommendations. I don’t know whether I’d go directly to the state licensing agency without running it by the university first (department head? Dean of the college?), but someone needs to.

  43. Not Australian*

    One place to start with “What would you do if… ” questions might be ‘That would depend on the resources I had available, and whether or not I’d been given appropriate training’. After all, there is no set answer to that sort of question: it will vary widely according to the amount of time you’ve been in the job, who is available to ask, and whether or not you’ve been given adequate documentation and support.

    1. Training*

      I wouldn’t include the training line. Most jobs don’t have any kind of formal training and expect employees to figure stuff out. If someone indicated they expected to be trained on everything they had to do most places I’ve worked would see that as a major red flag.

  44. kiki*

    For the trust fund situation, I’m wondering if LW and her boyfriend are known to go on a lot of trips, are frequently at Michelin star restaurants, wear a lot of notably expensive clothing, drive a really nice car, etc.

    Just because I could see people being way more curious what LW’s partner does if that’s the case. To be clear, it’s not their business, but if folks know LW’s job as a llama groomer doesn’t pay wild amounts, I can see them being especially determined to figure out how she keeps pulling up to events in a Bugatti.

  45. Orange Cat Energy*

    #3

    It sounds like the interviewers are trying to get a sense of your communication skills in situations where you’re struggling on a deadline or something similar. I’ve asked versions of these questions when I’ve have to interview candidates of any entry level. There are a few who give answers that would raise questions about their ability to communicate and prioritize.

  46. Adventures in Grad School*

    There’s some good advice here for LW1 and bad advice. Alison’s advice is a little incomplete imo and perhaps not quite in tune with the arcane goings on of academia.

    You can go to HR about this, and you should go as a group and bring your letter. You could also do the same for your department chair or your dean. Especially since there seems to be ambiguity about who this person’s supervisor is. It could be another admin and not the clinic directors. The directors may have already tried to do something to no avail. Tackling this as a group with your letter might be the kick the university needs.

    In my psych program as an undergrad, the clinical PhD students still had a major advisor. Where is yours in all this?

    At my current graduate school, this behavior would actually fall under our rules for required reporting of harassment. How do you file these complaints at your university?

    Also, check for an ombudsman office on campus. Often their jobs are to help university staff, faculty, and students figure out what to do in situations like this – though it varies.

    As a grad student in research, it sounds very difficult to change clinical programs – because certainly your clinic hours and field anything won’t transfer. However, the rules about coursework will vary. If you have a good relationship with a mentor or two, I’d ask around about this belief that it’s impossible to transfer. Check with more than one person (discreetly) if you can. I suspect the culture around transfers likely varies quite a bit program to program. In our research program profs will take on students abandoned by professors or who got stuck in a bad situation.

    Last resort:

    You also don’t need to unionize. That’s a bit extreme (though fashionable?). However, you could essentially strike as a group. “If you do not to do XYZ by z date, we will not be putting in our clinic hours and subjecting our patients to abuse.” Don’t tell them to fire the coordinator. That’s up to them and groups of staff shouldn’t go threatening strikes to get people fired. It’s a bad look and counterproductive. The uni should come to that conclusion on their own.

    1. deesse877*

      Unionization is only “extreme” if you consider workers’ rights unimportant, or if (in the academic context) you believe the customary structure of the workplace (tenure system, grad student funding, etc) will defend workers’rights. The former is essentially a value judgment, so I will leave it there, but the latter is naive.

    2. Ms. Eleanous*

      re phD
      I take issue with the
      “You also don’t need to unionize. That’s a bit extreme (though fashionable?). ”

      I worked 2 non-union jobs at the beginning of my career, and I never want to do it again.

      Unionizing is extreme?
      It’s your livelihood. If anything, it’s appropriately extreme.

      I’m giggling over saying it’s fashionable.

    3. Ms. Eleanous*

      Adventures
      2nd the ask around advice..
      “I suspect the culture around transfers likely varies quite a bit program to program. In our research program profs will take on students abandoned by professors or who got stuck in a bad situation.

      Oh, yeah … some rules turn out not to be universal.

  47. Pocket Mouse*

    LW 5, I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. A commenter above mentioned trying to save some FMLA for later on, and I’d like to add: if you can swing it financially, and it won’t cause problems for you at work, you can take some or all of your PTO before starting FMLA. That is, flex your time when you can (so you don’t have to take PTO/FMLA at all), then use PTO for appointments etc., then start intermittent FMLA. Some or all of the FMLA will be unpaid, but if that’s not a problem for you, it’s not a problem for FMLA.

    My understanding is that FMLA is considered “intermittent” if you work at any point between the start and end of your FMLA entitlement, so that’s likely what you’ll want to do. Another thing to keep in mind—and ask very direct questions about!—is the threshold at which your health insurance, PTO accruals, or other employment benefits would be suspended, if any.

    Also, check to see if your state has a paid family leave program that covers caring for an ill family member. This is different from FMLA but would likely run concurrently, and can supplement your income. Wishing you both the best.

  48. Dog momma*

    #5. Give HR the heads up now. There a lot going on for you and your husband to process. You don’t have to go into detail bc he doesn’t have a treatment plan just yet.
    I was diagnosed in ‘ 22. We only told specific family members & friends.. that was my call. Otherwise you will be overwhelmed with calls, emails & texts & you don’t need that in he beginning. After you get a treatment plan, you can still decide who to share with, & that includes work. HR should still be able to keep it quiet if that is your request.
    It will be a whirlwind of appointments esp at the start so cook extra right now and freeze it, if people say they want to help, give them a specific task. You will be just as exhausted as your husband. Take advantage of a cancer support group at your hospital. Will pray for you.
    Fellow cancer survivor.

    1. LW #5*

      Thank you for your guidance, good thoughts, and prayers. I hadn’t thought about freezing meals or a support group for myself, so thank you for that advice, too. I hope you’re healthy and thriving now.

  49. Medium Sized Manager*

    Re: FMLA, one thing to consider is that it’s a decent amount of paperwork to go through. It may be prudent to talk to HR about how to set up FMLA so you can be prepared for when you feel you need it. It might also help as something tangible to do while you and your husband navigate this.

    I’m sorry he has cancer.

  50. Been teaching far too long*

    Letter #1: I feel you.
    I left a toxic school this year. I had been there 20 years and after the latest toxic admin took over, it was time to get out. I had to push through and finish last year so I wouldn’t lose medical insurance (I’m a cancer patient). But these are the things I started doing to survive the absolute abusive principal and band of toxic slugs:

    1. I said no. If I was asked to do anything outside of my contract time, I just said no. When the inevitable emotional blackmail of “but it’s for the students!” was tossed at me, I held firm. I showed up, I taught my classes, I did my grades and plans, and I went home.

    2. When I was sent nasty gram emails (principal could never talk to anyone face to face) I just replied “Thank you.” I figured that would stick in her craw more than me arguing with her. And frankly, at that point, I just didn’t care.

    3. When the principal’s Bulldog friend came down to yell at me for not doing something outside of my scope of work, I stood there, recorded the whole thing on my phone in my pocket and said “Thank you” at the end. She had a terrible voice and when she spoke in anger it sounded like she was a dog barking. I played that clip for anyone and everyone who asked. It became kind of a joke around the school to the point that other teachers would “woof” at this AP randomly. She never figured out what was going on. Petty? Yeah but whatever. You have to make your own fun at times.

    4. Principal came to see me when a rumor started that I was leaving. I told her it wasn’t a rumor. She begged me to stay, even saying “what can I do to keep you?” I told her to resign.

    5. When Bulldog decided to ride me for the last few months knowing I was a short timer and yelled at me, I told her “you do not have the right nor the privilege to speak to me like that.” I repeated that constantly to her, sometimes in front of students.

    Needless to say, I found a better, zero stress teaching job at a better place.

    1. Sunflower*

      “you do not have the right nor the privilege to speak to me like that.”

      I need to remember this one. So much more dignified and cool-headed than getting upset and blurt out something defensive or rude which is exactly what the other person wants. The true statement will devastates people (including me) more than fighting back or cuss words.

  51. CzechMate*

    LW 1 – University employee here. Where is the funding for the clinic coming from? Is it part of the university’s psychology department? It may *seem* like the clinic is completely siloed and separate from the rest of the university, but the co-directors absolutely need to be providing deliverables/updates/budgets to *someone*. It sometimes requires spending some time pouring over an org chart or exploring the university website. If you have an academic faculty advisor who doesn’t work with the clinic, you can mention this to them and ask who you can talk to about your concerns. Reach out to the folks who oversee the clinic and let them know there is a serious personnel issue and that it affects the quality of the service provided to the clients. You can also contact university HR, but it’s often better to go through the folks who oversee the center/clinic/department first.

    If nothing else–just focus on getting your clinical hours in and remember it’s not forever.

    1. CzechMate*

      Adding also: when you’re in a PhD program, you can sometimes feel very isolated and like you can’t do anything about a bad advisor, PI, site placement, etc. You may also think that it’s common knowledge at your university that this clinic is a mess and no one wants to do anything about it. It’s very likely that there are resources available to help you and the co-directors have just been in denial or don’t want to escalate their admin situation. If the situation is SO bad that you’ve considered dropping out of your program, you can also talk to the program deans and say, “I am contemplating leaving my doctoral program because of this.”

    2. LW1*

      Self-funded. Our client fees are what we use for salaries, materials, etc. I do think the university covers the overhead expenses.

      Thank you.

  52. Lanam*

    #1 LEAK YOUR 5 PAGE DOCUMENT TO THE STUDENT NEWSPAPER!! Clearly you need external intervention, and no better way than putting public pressure. You will find lots of support from the students at your school, particularly when you emphasize patient disrespect and harm.

  53. samwise*

    OP #1
    1. Take your concerns, including the list, to the dean.
    2. Same thing, to HR
    3. See if your university has an ombuds for students. Very very helpful– they will know policies, procedures, people, and can help you and your fellow students consider your options.
    4. Nuclear option: your university will have a board or office for research ethics, research with human subjects, that sort of thing. You can go to them. This is unfortunately the sort of action that could also be career-ending, so think carefully before taking this path. Ask the ombuds.

    The treatment of the PhD students is bad, but often you can’t do a whole lot. The treatment of the *patients* is likely more actionable — the university is likelier to see the legal jeopardy.

  54. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    #1 There’s more that the OP can do than just talking to the clinical directors. There is going to be someone over them that you can talk to. Also, since this is required of your program, go to whoever is in charge of your program. Explain how bad it is and push back as a group. Also, as a last resort find out who the accrediting agency is (for example, IACS: International Association of Counseling Services.) Also, try HR. Typically the grad students are considered employees of the university and therefore should not have to work in this condition. Are there any other workers that are non grad students that this affects?
    Something for the OP to think about is that this is not a forever job. This is only temporary unit they graduate. I know when you are in the toxic environment it can be hard to see ahead of you, but this will pass when you graduate.

    #2. I feel like there’s more going on here. The OP doesn’t say that they see Sansa writing in the journal continually. Just that they keep seeing it. Unless it is actually affecting the work, like she is using it to try and talk about being pregnant, or is stopping work conversations to write in the book, I don’t think there is a problem with someone writing a few times throughout the day. And who knows, maybe she is using it to track problems or something she is having. THe only cavieat to this is if the pregnancy book could have an affect on her reputation. If people see her with the book, are they going to not want to work with her because they figure shes just going to leave soon.

  55. Anne Boleyn's Necklace*

    For the FMLA person, try to find some folks at your employer who have gone through the FMLA process there, and recently. My employer (large state university) made significant adjustments to their FML policies post Covid, specifically by offering the option to use sick leave first, before touching PTO. I had a very smooth process with HR folks who could not have been kinder. I had two forms of about 2-3 pages each, and you did not need a share a specific diagnosis or meds or anything, just have your appropriate practitioner sign. It was so simple I couldn’t believe it. It did not make sense for me to give my supervisor a head’s up, and to be very clear FML is not something a supervisor’s approves/denies (see federal law protection). I was able to use sick leave to cover my entire month of leave (I’d been there 10 years), and still get paid my full salary. I’ve been telling everyone since to take FML b/c I had such a smooth experience.

    I didn’t know you could use FML for something other than childbirth b/c that’s how my immediate friend group used it, and I realized later that 2x earlier in my career I ABSOLUTELY should have used FML but didn’t know about it. I’ve since encouraged one colleague to take it where he worked 10 hrs/wk for 8 weeks to be able to get his child some important care (which takes many many hours), and another friend navigating the trauma from exiting an abusive relationship who took a month of leave. Especially folks who are struggling with burnout/mental health; chances are if you have a therapist, have suffered a trauma, can see a crisis coming, etc., please please please use FML as a tool to get some support, rest, and assistance. You don’t have to struggle endlessly by yourself until you reach a crisis, you can take a break and get care you/your family needs and regroup.

    1. LW#5*

      Thank you so much for sharing your FML experience and encouragement. I hope our process is as smooth as yours was!

  56. Maybe?*

    LW#3 – is there a chance that this is NOT the type of an answer the interviewers are looking for (and maybe that is why you are getting several variations of the same question)? You mentioned that it’s been a few years since you’ve looked for a job and that your manager previously always wanted to know if you were running into roadblocks – any chance your previous manager was much more hands-on than would be expected for the level of roles you’re applying to and that’s why you’re defaulting to the answer of escalating most things to your manager?

    As a manager myself, I expect a level of independence from my team (they have authority to make decisions and largely prioritize their own work). Of course, it depends on a role, company, manager, etc. and the specific situation. But the ability to handle things on your own and know when I need to be looped in (and when I don’t) is definitely something that I actively screen for when I hire. A person whose answer is “I would come to you with this problem” for every roadblock or unknown that they encounter would definitely not be the right fit for the team. Your letter says that “all the questions are some variation” of the same question – why are they asking you so many questions just wanting you to give the same exact answer over and over again? My read would be that they maybe want a different answer or to find a nuance for when you would escalate and when you would figure it out on your own.

  57. Observer*

    #2- Pregnant staff person.

    I want to pick up on something people have been commenting on.

    What is the actual problem here? Is she actually spending so much time on this that it’s affecting her work? Is she redirecting conversations to her pregnancy and need to journal? Is she just making a big dramatic show of journaling that’s distracting?

    Unless you can answer yes to any of these or anything similar, let it go. If there really is an issue, focus on that.

  58. samwise*

    I’m so sorry to hear about your husband, OP 5. Please try to take care of yourself as well. It is ok for you to do things on your own… Therapy helps too.

    Lots of experience with FMLA here, both continuous and intermittent, for myself and for caring for family members.

    I recommend meeting with HR sooner rather than later. They can help you understand the process and paperwork for your employer. You can then start gathering info/docs, or know what info/docs to get once you do know. Typically *you* will request FML, rather than your supervisor, but maybe your employer does it differently. Your supervisor will have to sign off on it.

    Intermittent: you need to take time off but you are able to work. For instance, taking your husband to chemo appts, caring for him the day after chemo, taking him to other medical appts, other at-home medical care, other care (managing medications, dealing with the pharmacy, dealing with the hospital/doctors/specialists, dealing with the insurance company, etc.)

    Continuous: you need to be off for a block of time and cannot work

    See if your husband’s insurance offers a case management service. I’ve always managed my family members’ “cases” myself, but a lot of people find the service to be very helpful.

    1. LW#5*

      Thank you so much for your guidance and for sharing your experience. Thank you for the reminder to take care of myself, too. I hope you and your loved ones are all doing well.

  59. Shellfish Constable*

    OP #1 — I’m sure it’s been said multiple times in this thread, but, on the off-chance it hasn’t:

    **DEANS**

    Specifically, if you all have already shared your concerns with your department chair (have you?? — because they’re a separate but powerful entity who outranks your PI and/or the clinic’s director), you all need to share your doc with the senior associate dean of faculty affairs or equivalent. The leadership in your department is being totally remiss — both in permitting the admin’s behavior to go unchecked and to ignore the totally reasonable labor demands of you grad students.

    If you get crickets from the dean’s office, it’s time to go to the university ombudsperson. Or maybe go to both and then loop in HR while you’re at it. Go nuclear.

    I obviously can’t speak for everyone, but my university is ALLERGIC to anything that even whiffs of legally actionable behaviors, including being verbally abusive to staff and students (!!). If anyone beyond a clinic’s director here (and we have lots of clinics run with variable competency by faculty and staff) found out about this person’s behavior — a non-faculty member chasing out graduate students and verbally chastising patients — they’d be out on their bum so fast they’d bounce. Keep escalating. And please don’t drop out of your program. :)

    1. Manic Sunday*

      YES. Dysfunction and poor management is all too common in academia, but a university is a big place, and this is a problem that someone somewhere in the university system will have the ability and willingness to solve. It’s just a matter of finding them–and making sure they can’t ignore the problem, by putting it in writing as Abogado Avocado advises below. And don’t undersell it. This situation is too serious to be allowed to continue. Make it the problem of someone (preferably more than one someone) who is legally required by the nature of their job to take action.

      Student enrollment/retention is one of the concerns deans and provosts and presidents are paid to care about. Since this is a departmental clinic staffed by graduate students, I assume most if not all of the clients are themselves students (both graduate and undergrad). So this admin is undermining the university’s obligations not only to its graduate students but also some of its most vulnerable undergrads, who are going to the clinic for help. Nuclear is the way to go.

  60. Katara's side braids*

    LW1, if this person is a licensed professional, you may be justified in going directly to the licensing board with your ethics concerns (the “crystals instead of therapy” line definitely set off alarm bells for me!). Something to consider if none of the other channels appear to work.

    1. Abogado Avocado.*

      Exactly.

      Campus clinics with grad-student counselors usually operate based on supervision by licensed professional(s) and those professionals usually must ensure that professional standards are being followed at the clinic. In other words, those with their state psychology licenses on the line have to ensure that all staff are following professional standards, not making patients feel worse, or recommending therapies not approved within the profession.

      Yes, you have professors who are supervisors who are saying they can’t fire the admin because they’re not in charge of who the University assigns to this position. At this point, I could say something snarky about learned helplessness and psychology professors not knowing how to use Skinner’s methods to motivate the University administration. Instead, I propose YOU deal with this learned helplessness by sending a second letter to these supervisors that: (1) cites the state administrative regs that require the clinic and its staff to adhere to professional standards; (2) attaches your list of unprofessional actions by the admin; (3) alerts the supervising profs that this admin is risking their licenses and the temporary permits of anyone working in the clinic. In this section, feel free to cite the research showing that the mental health needs of university students have risen and that it would be terrible if a student patient harmed themselves after being exposed to the admin’s unprofessional conduct; (4) proposes that this rises to the level of a risk that should be reviewed by the Office of the General Counsel of the University; and (5) offers to partner with the supervisors in getting the University administration to understand that Things. Must. Change. or else the clinic is at legal risk. Consider copying the University Office of General Counsel on this letter. Better, if you know a lawyer in that office, put a bug in their ear.

      Why another letter in writing when the first didn’t accomplish your objective? Because, as a bureaucrat, I can assure you that the one thing bureaucrats fear the most is documentation of a problem in writing and with evidence. Phone calls can be ignored. Complaints in meetings can be ignored. But a complaint in writing with evidence cannot be ignored because someone, somewhere will start asking questions about what the higher ups knew and when did they know it.

      Good luck. Let us know what happens.

  61. Lynn*

    Regarding letter number 3

    I was in a difficult situation back in 2011 when I worked for my former employer at a local university as a visitor parking attendant

    I sat inside the visitor parking booth, which had a phone

    My former employer had a contract with the university to provide 2 visitor parking attendants

    The client manager was the Director of Parking and Transportation Services

    There was also a manager over the account, who also worked for my former employer

    I reported to both managers

    I worked there from March 2006 to the end of August 2012

    In the spring of 2011 the Director of Parking and Transportation Services told me that 1) the visitor parking garage was being renovated in a couple of weeks, 2) visitor parking would be moved to the faculty/staff garage, which was next to the faculty/staff garage, 3) the parking and transportation office would not be able to answer calls from either the call box at the entrance gate or the exit gate to the faculty/staff garage, and 4) that I was to prevent anyone who parked in the faculty/staff garage from pressing either call button

    From 2006 to 2011 *before the visitor parking garage was renovated* calls from the call box at the visitor parking garage entrance gate and exit gate were sent to me

    I told the manager over the account the following…,

    I could not prevent anyone parking in the garage from pressing either call button
    Could the calls from the call boxes be re-routed to me

    The manager over the account spoke to the Director of Parking Services about having the calls from the call boxes re-routed to me

    He spoke to the Director of Parking and Transportation Services about that, and she said no to my request

    That meant I was expected to prevent anyone who parked in the faculty staff garage from pressing either call button

    The manager over the account told me I could do that even though I told him I could not

    So, a simple request for me to do my job was shot down, and I was expected to do the impossible by both managers

  62. Fellow partner of cancer patient :(*

    This is for OP #5. Your letter caused a big lump in my throat, as I’m going through something similar with my partner and it totally blows.

    I’m in Oregon, and we have paid leave here for family-related things. I’m fortunate to have a highly flexible and very empathic company and supervisor, so I haven’t needed to dip into it, but I believe it covers six weeks. It’s worth checking to see if you can take advantage of a similar paid leave.

    Also, if you can bear it, I’d recommend explaining the situation to your boss and/or coworkers, depending on your team dynamic. Work colleagues can be a wonderful support if they’re decent people, and your boss especially is in a unique position to make this one aspect of your life (your work) much less stressful. S/he can reassign work, arrange flex time even if it’s not officially offered by your org, allow you to take a minute when you need to, cover meetings, etc.

    Lastly, something you didn’t ask for but I’d also recommend – start gathering your community close! I hope y’all have friends and/or family nearby. Those people WANT to help, so let them. Whether it’s bringing you meals, staying with your spouse while you have much-needed coffee with a friend, vegging with you and spouse watching Netflix all weekend, driving your kids around if applicable, or whatever else – you can use all the support you can get during treatment.

    Several websites make this easier – not just Gofundme (that’s an option too, if the bills are piling up, which they might), but also sites like Caring Bridge and Lotsa Helping Hands. We’ve found those to be very effective – if you want meals, for example, Lotsa allows you to specify what kind of food you like so people don’t waste time and money bringing you the wrong stuff. If you need your kids picked up, you can specify times and places, and people can sign up for certain duties. It kinda allows people to support you in whatever way is most comfortable for them, which I like.

    My heart is with you! This is a tough road no matter what happens. Definitely cry and hug your spouse a lot (there’s that lump again).

    1. MissMuffett*

      Oh gosh yes to the community — I have had to tell myself to “take the yeses” when I’ve had health stuff we’ve had to pull in support for. Your friends WANT to be helpful, so to the extent that you can help them identify appropriate ways – or outright asking – it’s a blessing to everyone.
      FRIENDS, on the flip side, should be prepared to say, I”m good at [this] – can I do that for you? Where [this] is maybe cleaning house, getting some repairs done, building a ramp, doing laundry, cooking meals, coming over in the mornings to help pack kid lunches — whatever.

    2. LW #5*

      My heart is with you, too! Thank you so much for your comment and for sharing your experience and recommendations. I will look into paid family leave options and the websites you mentioned, as well.

      I’m glad that you have a supportive work environment and social network, and I hope that you and your partner have lots of happy and healthy times together in the future.

  63. Dr. Farnsworth*

    Another option for #1 is to report it to the university’s HR Department. I’m also at a university and have seen the HR department be much more effective about calling in faculty or staff for these kinds of behaviors and even putting them on Performance Improvement Plans outside of their chain of command.

  64. TeapotNinja*

    LW1: I’d go for option b (leverage)…public shaming: Facebook, local newspaper, University newspaper, whatever would gather enough negative publicity to make the University do something.

  65. JR*

    On #1, and speaking as a former in-house lawyer at a university, if you’ve had no luck addressing the issue with the psychology department chair, I’d recommend complaining to the head of whatever college contains the Psychology Department (at my school it would have been the Dean of the College of Humanities and Social Sciences). You could copy the Provost or whoever is the head of academic affairs. Let them know that you have concerns about how the psychology department has been supervising the clinic admin, and that the admin’s atrocious behavior is causing students in the program to explore their options elsewhere.

  66. NNT*

    OP3- I’m a recruiter, and when I ask questions like that, what I am measuring is problem-solving skills and independence- the worst answer someone can give me to those question is “I immediately go to my manager.” One thing I would suggest in interviews, is to consider WHY someone would be asking you a certain question- what are they trying to learn about you? Not every interviewer is created equal, of course, and some interviewers don’t know what they’re trying to figure out. But many of us do have real reasons for specific inquiries, and if you are getting a variation of the same question over and over again (whatever that question is) it is worth thinking about what competencies they are trying to measure.

    1. H3llifIknow*

      I too interview and hire a lot of people, but if you’re going to ask questions about problem solving and independent thinking, make them RELEVANT and not “how would you solve an international crisis” nonsense. “If you lost several hours of your coding due to a system glitch, how would you recover?” or “As a team lead, how do you handle conflict between employees or personality clashes?” etc… The questions the OP were asked were goofy.

      1. Jennifer Strange*

        I think you’re on the wrong letter? The LW in this case wasn’t asked about solving an international crisis, that was yesterday.

      2. Nnt*

        I mean, I agree that that is a silly question, but I don’t ask questions about solving international conflicts and the OP didn’t say that her interviewers were asking those questions either. I just think the answer to “how do you go about problem solving” isn’t “I immediately go to my manager.” If it was, people wouldn’t bother to ask a question with such an obvious answer.

    2. Manic Sunday*

      The three concrete examples OP3 gave don’t seem like effective questions to learn about someone’s problem-solving skills. To me, they all seem like versions of, “What do you do when you’ve exhausted your options for independent problem-solving?” And I’m not sure how anyone answers that question except to say they’d tell someone about the problem.

  67. H3llifIknow*

    For the PhD program, I’m wondering why this hasn’t been talked about with your PhD advisor? Surely they should be made aware of what’s going on within the program. And your directors are ding dongs if they say they can’t do anything because there’s “no hierarchy”! WTAF? If there’s no hierarchy, why do they have the title “Director”? Sounds like they’re afraid of Nurse Ratchett. I also wonder has anyone just…pushed back with her? Sounds like she’s had free reign and will continue to take it but maybe “Hey please don’t yell at me; it’s not professional.” and to a client, “I’m so sorry for that, you ARE here at the correct time; let’s get you checked in.” Perhaps she’s so completely unhinged that there will be consequences, but just maybe… it’ll stun her into silence to be put in her place? Good Luck. It sounds like a hellscape there.

  68. Nancy*

    LW1: Many universities and healthcare settings have a confidential reporting line, if yours does you can report her there. If not, report to the ombudsman line. Also, talk to your advisor about your concerns.

  69. MissMuffett*

    FMLA – you can also use it intermittently, which might be how you do it at first – so you can use it to take every Tuesday off to accompany him to chemo (for example) and work the other 4 days. Then maybe later it becomes longer times consecutively (weeks or months). You don’t have to start the 12 week block and take it all at once.
    Hopefully your company is decent people, and if you work for any kind of larger/corporate entity, your HR people are probably pretty proficient with how to handle it. You’ll likely have to fill out a bunch of forms, maybe provide some ‘evidence’ (like doctor’s info or something to show it’s a proper use of that kind of leave). Also talk to your HR about other types of leave that may be available to you. Your state may have some additional FMLA you are entitled to, for instance. Your company might offer other types of personal leave that you could utilize. A good HR person will be able to walk you through the options available to you and how to access them.
    Best wishes – hopefully it all goes well and you don’t even need all of the leave you’re offered <3

  70. Nicky D*

    LW #5 I am so sorry for what you and your spouse are going through but there is no need to give your employer an FMLA heads-up until more information is available. Everyone’s experience is different–my husband had cancer for 5 years but my disease-related absences were extremely minimal–and so were his. (He worked full-time until a month before he died and I never needed FMLA.) ALso, shut down any feedback you receive from people who are not medical professionals. People will love to tell you their stories but the treatments have progressed so rapidly in the past few years that their input is almost certainly out of date.

    1. LW #5*

      Hi Nicky, thank you for your sympathy, and for sharing and reminding me to focus on what we hear from his medical team – there will probably be a lot of noise coming at us in the coming weeks and beyond.

      I am so sorry that your husband died.

  71. Overthinking It*

    #4. “He’s a gentleman of leisure.” The questioner will probably decide He’s a sponge, living off you, but who cares? Don’t be embarassed; it’s a nice thing to have money. Let the questioner be embarrassed, for snooping.

  72. FluffskyMom*

    For #1: An option missed is making a complaint to the licensing board, if the directors are licensed. This is violating ethical codes of psychologists, and we are responsible for our subordinates behavior. It is a legit board complaint and that should get them to pay attention. You may be able to do so anonymously.

  73. Jules the 3rd*

    LW1: There’s one more option – the grad students / clinicians briefly address her directly as it happens. They could make a goal to be out front 5 minutes before the next appt, or take shifts when free. Do it often enough and she may get so frustrated she quits or changes, but at least you’ll have mitigated her impact, and get practice on de-escalation techniques.

    Get together with the other students and plan / rehearse things like,
    “Oh, Admin, we don’t yell here.” [move on, ignore her, see if you can help whoever she yelled at]
    “They can try crystals later, but now it’s time for their session!”[move on]
    “Hm, I think you mistook that time, I have an appt now, and I don’t see anyone else waiting!”

  74. megaboo*

    I don’t know if this applies, but when my father was dying of cancer, I took FMLA briefly before he passed. I did have to have his physician write up the FMLA justification required by my county job. Maybe once you have a bigger picture of how treatment will work for your husband, you can ask his doctor to assist you. In my experience as well, the only people I told were HR. My supervisor, their supervisor, etc. were not told what was happening unless I chose to tell them.

  75. RCB*

    #4, I live in DC and this is a running joke, that you can’t go to anything without someone asking “so what do you do?” and it’s FRUSTRATING! I am so tired of conversations revolving around work (especially when here the question is usually asked because people are deciding if you are worthy of having a conversation with, meaning they are deciding if you are someone they should know so they can use you for a connection later) and I have been doing my own campaign to stop this. When it comes up now at most I just say “accounting” and anything after that I answer “let’s talk about anything but work, surely we are more interesting than our jobs”, and it works. We all travel a lot, have hobbies, volunteer, are very current on the news, so we have so much we can talk about if we just stop that line of thought in people’s brains that they are so accustomed to automatically asking.

    1. Sarah*

      I live in DC and prefer to ask what someone does because you’re right..I am judging them. I don’t want to know or talk to or be friends with a conservative. They tell me they work for some Peter Thiel thinktank on K? Hard pass. And no, most of them are not more interesting than their jobs bc their jobs are all they have.

    2. Saturday*

      Rather than “let’s talk about anything but work, surely we are more interesting than our jobs,” I’d much rather have my conversation partner just start talking about something else. I feel like “Let’s talk about something else” means, “Be more interesting,” and expects me to do all the work.

  76. I don't work in this van*

    Pretty sure my boss would have preferred “writes obnoxiously in a journal throughout the day” to “vomits hourly, sometimes during meetings” when I was pregnant.

  77. You Will Survive*

    LW5, I am so sorry you are going through this. I am a cancer survivor, and resonate with earlier commenters who say that the early diagnosis stages are among the scariest and most stressful because of all the unknowns. For me, it was helpful when my husband could come to the initial appointments right after I was diagnosed, because it is scary and there is a LOT of information. Generally, these appointments get scheduled regardless of whether they are convenient for you, so depending on your job flexibility, it might make sense to loop in your boss and investigate the FMLA process now. I also needed help for a few days as I recovered from surgery since moving around was hard. Then I definitely needed hubs to drive me on the days I had chemo, since there is no way I could have safely driven home all drugged up. But aside from these, I did not need full-time daily care. It took a couple of days after my first chemo for my docs to figure out the right combo of meds to combat the nausea, so if you can clear your calendar for the first one, that will be helpful. But after that, I mostly spent the day of chemo and several days after each cycle dazed or asleep and definitely didn’t require much more than a water bottle refill and a reminder to eat something. And the rest of the time, I felt good enough to take care of myself.

    Good luck and bon courage. We are all rooting for you and hoping for a happy outcome. You can do this!

    1. LW #5*

      Thank you so much for your message and good wishes, and for sharing your experience with me. I want to be there with him and for him for all of it.

      I am SO glad to hear that you are a cancer survivor – I hope you are thriving. And I love your username :)

  78. I Have RBF*

    LW #5: I am going through the later part of this right now. My spouse has cancer, got a Dx, tried chemo, it failed and put them in the hospital, and now they are on hospice. This mess started last October, and moved veeeeery slowly.

    I am lucky in that I work remotely and my company has “unlimited” sick leave, so unless I’m out too much I don’t have to use FMLA yet. As their condition gets worse I may need to take a block of time, and that’s what FMLA is for.

    I understand the desire to just hold your spouse. I have gone with mine to every appointment. It is a long, stressful grind, whichever way the outcome goes. What one friend of mine advised is this: Remember to take care of yourself, too. Make time that is yours for self care – you can’t help your spouse if you are burned out from stress.

    Fuck cancer.

    1. LW #5*

      Thank you for your comment, for sharing your experience, and for reminding me to take care of myself.

      I am so sorry that your husband has cancer and for everything you have both gone through. Fuck cancer, indeed.

  80. Elsewise*

    LW4, I’m in a similar boat, just on the opposite end. My partner is disabled, and because of this, has worked a lot of different part-time jobs. When you work in an office environment, people often get judgy if your partner works at a gas station, for example. I usually go with a concise but not too vague answer and then move to another topic. You mention that you’re in adjacent fields, so that’s an easy direction to nudge the conversation.

    “Oh, Peter always has a few different pots on the burner, but llama grooming is his passion. We actually met when we were both working on the Thistleberg show. Neither of us show llamas, but it’s such an interesting world, don’t you think?”

    “Joe does some freelance writing work in a few different genres. It’s great having another writer in the house, he’s always so supportive when I get bogged down in a new project. What about you, do you have any fellow writers in your life?”

    “Lance is between projects right now, he’s taking some time to focus on family obligations. We’re very lucky that he has that option. What does your husband do?”

  81. Head Sheep Counter*

    I like the advice for LW2 with the caveat that since this is Sansa’s first professional job, there might be a coaching opportunity regarding norms.

    We don’t know if this is a big ol’ obvious journal. We don’t know if Sansa’s been pregnant just long enough to register positive. We are missing pieces of the pie. But lets imagine its a big ol’ obvious journal. This has some challenges from a professional and from a workplace positive perspective. Professionally, having a big ol’ “My First Pregnancy” with stickers and what not… doesn’t read as professional. It reads as cutesy which is something that doesn’t help a lass out generally speaking. From a workplace perspective, folks go through all kinds of things. Generally, we have no idea if Bob has lost a child, or if Betsy has trouble conceiving (for two examples off the top of my head). It could be really uncomfortable/unkind to constantly have a not-work related item thrusting these issues to the forefront for folks who struggle. Medical issues are ideally private issues.

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      You’re right, medical issues are ideally private issues. Sansa may be using this journal for a medical issue, so unless it’s interfering with her work it’s a private issue.

      1. Head Sheep Counter*

        If she’s parading it around to the degree its equal to excessive phone usage… that’s not… private.

        Again we don’t know. But I do think there’s a coaching opportunity here and perhaps a review of being respectful to one’s colleagues (including the journal-er if there’s space to see if it resolves itself (eg its a week of over enthusiasm)).

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Writing in a journal isn’t parading around, nor is it disrespectful; it.. If it isn’t interfering with her work it’s a non-issue.

  82. Not enough time to get a new job*

    LW#1 workplace can’t leave. Alison found your answer really helpful.
    I’m in a similar but slightly better situation. Workload has been relentless, manager gets snappy easily and now workplace wanting us in the office more so don’t know how to sustain intensity if add nearly 2 hour commute each way. Moving closer to areas is more expensive. Going pt now means a financial hit and probably working for free on day off to keep up workload.
    I’m getting into my mid 60s with plan to scale back in 2-3 years rather than now to build more savings and super. Also if leave very large org lag time in securing new work at similar pay. Any retraining has to be short to be back in work. So first option is looking for a sideways move!
    Anyhow EAP has career counselling so going to take advantage of that to have a direction if I do need to resign with or without another job to go to.

  83. An Opossum*

    Re: #2, what is telling to me is the line “This is no different to me than say, doing homework on work time (which I have dealt with before in a similar way). ” This tells me that she’s spending a lot of time on the journal and not working, and it’s not the same as sending an occasional text message or chatting in the break room for 1o minutes. If it’s like doing homework on work time, handle it the same way. You don’t have to mention that it’s the journal, just give whatever gentle redirection you would have given if she were working on her homework.

  84. Manic Sunday*

    Re: letter #4, I wish I were more surprised people ask so many follow-up questions about the boyfriend’s work! In a culture where “what do you do?” is the default conversation starter, and many people feel their job (or at least their pride in hard work) is integral to their identity, it’s hard for a lot of folks to grasp that stay-at-home parents aren’t the only people who don’t spend most of their lives working for money.

    My partner can’t work a regular job, just occasional projects, due to disabilities. Although he is not overjoyed about this state of affairs, he is very open about it and doesn’t try to hide his disabilities or the fact that he doesn’t work. One time a friend brought her new boyfriend over to our house, and the boyfriend asked, “so what do you do?” My partner said, “Nothing.” Which understandably produced follow-up questions, but even after a series of detailed answers and more follow-up questions, the guy still looked confused and said: “But what do you DO?” That was a fun evening.

  85. phd clinical psychologist*

    #1 – phd clinical psychologist too over here! Are you in the doctoral program I graduated from?! you’re right on all fronts about the reality of the program and the field. I’m sorry your clinical training is getting sabotaged by an ironically pathological environment and faculty lacking self awareness. Off the cuff, could you turn it into a clinical question or use it as a training tool to get some traction with this issue? Like, Dr X – I’m wondering how you’d suggest approaching this very familiar sounding but not actually identical hypothetical clinical issue? Or how we could apply CBT or other evidence based treatment in this context? How could we approach assessment, diagnosis, therapy, etc, in a real world situation especially if we’re on our own and functioning entirely independently? Drops mic. And scene. (Obviously I have more non facetious thoughts than that…) Keep up the good fight. You’re doing it and it’s not easy.

  86. iglwif*

    I don’t know how to answer the pregnancy journal question without knowing whether she is pulling it out half a dozen times a day to make a quick note (which doesn’t take a ton of time, and which a midwife or OB might request — things like noting symptoms, keeping a food diary, etc.), or whether she’s sitting there writing in it for half an hour at a time (which is obviously a genuine disruption to her work). Those are entirely different things.

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