It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…
1. My coworker masturbates in the men’s bathroom
There is a guy in my office who will go into one of the stalls in the men’s bathroom for 20-30 minutes at a time. I have had the bad luck of entering a stall next to him and hearing audible masturbation noises. I think he does this every day we work in-office because I swear it’s happened 5-6 times. A coworker I’m close with has confirmed hearing it as well, so I know I am not going crazy. I have also seen this guy come out of the bathroom with headphones on, looking at something on his phone, so after repeated incidents, I’m pretty sure he just doesn’t know how loud he is.
Not sure how to handle this one. He is more or less doing it “in private” and I feel like HR would escalate things too much. We also were recently acquired by an international company and no longer have in-house HR. I don’t really want to tell someone halfway across the continent about a coworker’s bathroom habits. On the other hand, I would feel uncomfortable going up to him and saying, “Hey, I hear you jerking it every time we’re in the office, can you knock it off?”
Asking HR to intervene would not be escalating it too much. Far from it! This guy is not in private; he’s using a shared bathroom where coworkers are hearing him (and he’s apparently not even bothering to be discreet or to stop when someone is in a stall a couple of feet away from him). You don’t owe him privacy here; he owes you the ability to use the bathroom at work without being exposed to the sound of someone jerking off. “Not hearing someone masturbating” is pretty much a bare minimum expectation you should be able to have at work.
Talk to HR. Say you’ve heard others report the same thing, it’s gross, and you don’t want to be exposed to it.
2. My employee doesn’t solve problems on her own
I manage a department of three employees, and I’m struggling with how to supervise one of them.
We’re a high-performing team with various responsibilities, so everyone has a lot on their plate. All three employees have been with the company for about the same amount of time, so I expect them to have similar levels of knowledge. Betty and Sally are both friendly, approachable, take initiative, and are solid problem-solvers. Velma is quieter, takes little initiative, and often relies on me for answers or guidance. I don’t mind questions, but it’s become a regular occurrence, and many of these issues she should be able to resolve herself with a little effort, basic reasoning, or research.
This was understandable when she was first hired, but after more than two years, it’s become problematic. In previous one-on-one meetings, I’ve asked Velma to take more ownership of her problem-solving and attempt to find solutions on her own before asking me for feedback. I even listed this as a goal on her last annual review, but there’s been little improvement over the last year. Her responses often included that she wasn’t sure and knew I could find the answer faster, or that she didn’t have all the necessary information, even though I don’t always have it either and often end up taking a few minutes to figure it out myself.
I’m getting frustrated with the situation, and am frankly tired of giving the same feedback every few months. We’ve all had to learn this skill, and none of us needed this much hand-holding. Velma is a fine employee and does good work, but she’s not a star performer like her colleagues. I try not to compare them, but I’m aware it’s probably affecting my perspective. I know I need to start addressing this more directly in the moment, but I’m not sure how to do it without coming across as annoyed.
You need to escalate the seriousness with which you’re treating it. Sit down with her and name the pattern and what she needs to do differently: “We’ve talked about this in the past and it was a formal goal on your last review, but I’m not seeing the progress I need. Now that you’re two years into the job, I need you to take more responsibility for problem-solving and look for solutions on your own before coming to me. That’s true even if you think I can find the answer faster than you, because you won’t develop this skill without practicing it. So going forward, when you ask for helping solving a problem, I’d like you to include everything you’ve tried so far — whether it’s checking our documentation, looking through similar past projects, or XYZ (fill in here with specific things she should try in your context). If you haven’t tried solve it yourself first, I’m going to ask you to do that before I step in.”
Then, when she brings you a problem she should be able to solve herself, ask what she’s tried so far. And rather than jumping in to figure it out yourself, think about how you’d figure it out yourself and then ask her to take those steps instead of you. (Here’s some advice on how to do that.)
If after a few months of this you’re not seeing much improvement, this may be an ability she’s not likely to develop with the amount of coaching it’s reasonable to expect you to invest … at which point you’d need to decide what that means for her tenure in the job. In some jobs it would be prohibitive; in others it might just mean that she can’t advance or won’t be compensated in the same way as Betty and Sally are.
3. Do I have to keep working late now that I’ve resigned?
I recently resigned from my hectic 9-5 job to go back to school in May, giving two months notice instead of the usual two weeks.
The job is typically 9-5, but it is a busy time and in the past month I was added to two new accounts that are making me work late. I’ve been putting in about three extra hours of work per work day, and I don’t want to anymore. Will I be remembered poorly if I leave closer to 5 pm, or is there a tacit expectation that people aren’t going to go above and beyond when they’ve quit?
You should return to your regular hours. You generously gave them two months of notice instead of two weeks; you don’t also need to give them 15 extra hours of work a week! Frame it this way: “I won’t be able to handle these two new accounts on top of my regular workload — I have time to do X and Y but not Z, or I could do about half of each of them, but I can’t do everything that’s currently on my plate within a normal workweek. Can you tell me how you’d like me to prioritize, knowing that not all of it can get done? Or alternately, would it make more sense to reassign the two new accounts?”
If you hear you should just find a way to get it all done, you should say, “There’s not enough time in the work week to get it all done. I’ll do as much as I can, but I need to let you know that it won’t all get done.”
And then leave on time.
Related:
since I gave notice at work, my boss has tripled my workload
4. References when you haven’t had many jobs
I have been helping my daughter with her resume and applications for full-time employment (thanks to your column, we have great info), but there are many applications that are asking for three business references. She’s only had two part-time jobs, one in college and one she’s been at since graduation. Some of these are online where they won’t let her past the question without filling in all three. How do we navigate this? Each job has had only one supervisor/manager, so there aren’t even two levels of bosses she could add.
In a situation like this, it’s okay if all the references aren’t managers. Is there a coworker she could add, someone who worked closely enough with her to be able to speak to her work with some nuance? Ideally it would be a coworker who was senior to her, but if no one like that is available, she could list a peer.
5. Can you use FMLA for clinical trials?
I have a moderately-serious, life-shortening chronic condition (I have decades, not months, left, and I use a wheelchair outside my home) for which there is no treatment. About a year ago, I got the chance to do clinical trial for a new drug that was in development. It required a month-long in-patient stay in a treatment center.
I asked my work’s EAP if I’d be able to use FMLA for that, but they told me “you can’t use FMLA if it’s voluntary.” That seems wrong to me? After all, most medical treatments are technically voluntary, in that you could choose not to do them — sometimes with the devastating medical consequences, but you have the option.
I ended up working remotely during the trial, judiciously using PTO on days when I had a lot of procedures, but I still sometimes had to be on Zoom meetings while getting blood drawn.
Anyway, I’m interested in getting your take on that decision. Should it have been covered? What are the actual rules? I might do other trials in the future, and I’d like to be sure of my options.
Whoa, no, your work was 100% wrong. The law is clear that you can use FMLA for a clinical trial when it’s part of a serious health condition. The fact that clinical trials are considered “voluntary or elective” is not a factor. Your EAP may have been thinking of elective procedures for cosmetic treatments (like plastic surgery), which don’t qualify for FMLA — but they were fully wrong on the application here. In fact, the U.S. Department of Labor issued an opinion letter last year, affirming that employees may use FMLA for clinical trials.
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Entirely apart from the grossness in #1, he’s spending 30 minutes at a time in the bathroom on what sounds like a daily basis, which means he’s not working during that time. That’s “I need a medical accommodation” territory.
That’s “I will not monitor my coworker’s bathroom time” territory.
Focus on the issue at, well, hand: OP needs to not overhear his coworker masturbating, or pooping, if that’s what the moaning is. Never mind how long the guy spends in there.
I assumed it was more of a thwapping sound than groaning.
If he’s pooping, wouldn’t the other people in the bathroom smell it?
Sex noises are different from pain noises.
A friend of mine had a knee brace years ago and didn’t realize at the time that going into the washroom stall, fiddling with the brace on his knee with his pants down while groaning a bit (older guy with knee pain), and then walking out of the washroom could be taken the wrong way. He only clued in one day when he was leaving and a guy washing his hands looked at my friend like he’d been doing something disgusting.
My friend was only spending a few minutes in there so it wasn’t a big deal for his workflow, whereas 30 minutes indicates a problem if someone’s taking that long to poop. My friend dealt with it by doing his best to keep silent, or when feasible he used a single-person washroom.
Though it now occurs to me… who needs 30 minutes?
In this case, the guy is coming out with headphones on and looking at his phone, which suggests he’s watching p*rn.
I am just gobsmacked at the amount of people who watch p*rn at work. Even on company systems and devices.
Guys know our own sounds. Truly.
I don’t know if I agree it’s “I need a medical accommodation territory”, but it’s a hell of a long time to be blocking access to a toilet that you’re not actually using, just sitting on. Even if it weren’t gross, it’s clearly in the same category as “spending 30 minutes doing my hair in the bathroom,” it’s blocking up the bathroom with non-mandatory activities while people need that bathroom for the non-optional bathroom activities.
he’s spending 30 minutes at a time in the bathroom on what sounds like a daily basis, which means he’s not working during that time
That’s really not the LW’s problem. The guy’s manager should have some idea of his work performance and a sense of whether he’s disappearing too often.
It’s also not really relevant. Would it be OK if he were doing this on his lunch hour?
“Would it be OK if he were doing this on his lunch hour?”
Not if he’s doing it in the office.
From a management perspective, beyond the immediate issue it’s also a serious problem that this person’s judgement and sense of office/social norms is so extremely skewed. It should definitely go to HR.
Exactly this! Plus, it’s possible he’s intentionally waiting until his coworkers are in the bathroom, which could explain the 20-30 minutes. LW should definitely report what’s happening to HR and to their own manager.
Wanting to play with your privates is not a medical accomodation.
Well assuming it’s not IBS (I would think you could tell the difference between masturbation and bowel stuff) How in the hell do people think this is an ok thing to do at work? That’s nasty and do that stuff at home. And what kind of weirdo wears headphones in there????
If that is indeed what he’s doing amd it’s not bowel-related, we have reached a new low in workplace manners. I hope he at least washes his hands and cleans his phone afterwards.
I agree it’s completely inappropriate for work and HR needs to put a stop to it, but I don’t think it’s a “new low” or demonstrates a downward trend in workplace behavior. I mean, this is the site where we learned of the duck club and the boss who pees in a cup and dumps it down the kitchen sink.
Well, the headphones probably have something to do with the…content on his phone. He probably thinks he is being super stealthy and discreet and that no one knows what he is doing. He might be finishing up the video as he walks back to the office area, which double eww.
Personally, I’d just slide an anonymous note under the guy’s office door (or his desk or whatever) and see if it stops as a first step.
Alternative for LW1: Carry a glass of water with you to the bathroom. Next time he’s doing it, open the stall door, make sure nobody else is in the bathroom, sling the water over the door into his stall, and leg it. I guarantee this will stop at one, maximum two times.
The laugh I had to suppress reading this, simply because I don’t want to have to explain to anyone else in the office what’s so funny!
Thus to conclude the previous thread: It’s not “medical accommodation” time, or “monitoring coworker’s bathroom” time; it’s “bucket of water” time.
Or just bang on the wall or asking loudly “Do you have problems? You do not sound well!” so he realises he’s not as discreet as he thought he was?
I guess I would be embarrassed the first times I encountered that, but would get annoyed at some point. He is bringing awkwardness to his coworkers, so he doesn’t need to be handled with kid gloves. Return the awkwardness where it belongs!
I’d find it harder to spell this out in front of HR.
Yeah, this. Let him know you can hear him but remain professional.
Exactly what I was thinking! A loud, “Hey, are you okay in there?” in tones of concern.
“Who does number two work for? Who does number two work for!”
If he has his headphones on, he might not be able to hear you.
… in which case you could call paramedics to bust in on him and make sure he’s ok. :D
(Don’t actually do this)
Oh yes, please do! lol jk…maybe
serious question: what about office security? Like even if one person walked in and announced, “Security! Is everyone OK in here?”
Would that be a misuse of security?
I mean, if security came across someone doing that in an office, they’d have to act.
And there’s a gray area, “he sounded distressed.”
“Sir, we were called in to do a wellness check.”
I would find the need to handle anything he touched with SOME kind of gloves, even if they aren’t kid.
It’s a good idea in general to assume that many people around you have filthy hands, and act accordingly.
IDK, I have a hard time believing that a grown up choosing to do this, at work, during the workday, in a multi-stall bathroom where they know co-workers can come in and out to use other stalls has NO idea other people might be over-hearing him.
The possibility of being called out / the probability of annoying others, grossing them out may be part of what he’s going for, kind of like the people who take pleasure in smearing public restrooms with their bodily fluids. And just like LW is grossed out by being subjected to the sounds of this guy already, I can’t imagine being dragged even more into it by interacting with him when it’s happening is going to be any better.
Report what you’re hearing to HR, let them deal with it and put it on the official record. This is egregious behavior, not misbehavior on a playground that peers should have to deal with.
This was my read. The “others being may be able to hear, proximity to other stalls, public place” deal is part of appeal to this dude. Let HR handle him.
Yeah, there is an exhibitionist component to this type of thing. The “thrill” of getting caught and/or making others listen is part of the kick, IMO.
He’s going to lie to HR, but maybe it will make him stop.
In the case of lw1, it seems to me that this rises to the level of sexual harassment. You should be able to go into the bathroom at your job and take a pee without being subjected to somebody engaging in sexual activity. Whether it’s the lunatic whispering sexual things in a stall, or whether it’s this guy doing his gross thing, it seems to me, and legally perhaps I’m wrong, that sex in the workplace is harassment if you subject other people to it.
So, when you go to HR, it seems to me that the best thing to do would be to say that you are concerned about the company’s liability if this isn’t addressed.
Just because you’re a guy, and just because this behavior is being done by another guy, and just because as far as you know, it’s not necessarily being directed at you, doesn’t make it any less harassment in my eyes. Like I said, I could be wrong, but making a workplace sexual when it’s not a sex workplace, to me, is harassment.
Heck, even if your job was making porn films, you might have a reasonable expectation of being able to take a pee in peace in between shoots without even the bathroom being sexualized. I don’t know, but it seems like harassment to me. Not just grossness.
Yes, it is sexual harassment (or can be if it is pervasive and not stopped). Sexual harassment doesn’t just cover unwanted advances; it also includes sexual jokes, comments, noises, etc.
Unfortunately people engage in all kinds of gross behavior at work. I once had to terminate two employees who were engaged in adult relations in a conference room (that didn’t lock). I don’t care what people do in the privacy of their homes, but there’s no reason to do that at work.
One would think. One of the earliest “Dear Prudence” letters I read on Slate was submitted by a 20 something woman who worked night shift in an office (phones or cleaning staff). She wrote in to ask how to do damage control after being called out for masturbating in an office bathroom. Her argument was, “I did and someone came in. They reported it. But you know, sometimes you just have to do it.” And Dear Prudence, on Slate assured her and the readers that you really, really do not have to masturbate at work.
*knock knock* “FERGUS? YOU OKAY, BUDDY? SHOULD I CALL 911?”
He doesn’t need to be handled with kid gloves, but I would definitely suggest nitrile or latex gloves!
This is the real life way to handle it.
See, I was going to go with the very discreet solution of writing ‘NO MASTURBATING – WE CAN HEAR YOU!’ In sharpie on all of the stall doors but I like your solution so much better lol!
I am not usually a fan of handling things indirectly, but in this circumstance, I’d consider a sign in every stall that basically says that, just FYI, if your intent is to use the company bathroom to masterbate surreptitiously, it’s not working and everyone is aware you’re doing it. Alternatively, go full-on anonymous note from the approach that it’s not as subtle as he might think and may have impact on his reputation with the office/bosses.
If that doesn’t cure it, then the guy is probably an exhibitionist and making others uncomfortable is part of the appeal.
On a practical level – a large number of people will not read signs on walls; it’s also something that will be awkward to put up as it brings attention to the thing.
I am not wild about anonymous notes but as OP knows who this is, this may be an acceptable time to use one.
“Not hearing someone masturbating” is pretty much a bare minimum expectation you should be able to have at work.
I’m old enough that this is a brand new sentence for me.
I’m not so sure. Such signs would likely have little effect on him but would mean that anyone who sees them is also roped into the unwilling ‘audience’ and they would have just as little power to do anything about it as the LW. HR is probably a better bet.
If it’s a typical US bathroom, no need to open stall door, just fling it over the wall!
Open the door to the adjacent stall so you know you’ll hit the person on the toilet instead of the floor in front of him.
Or next time you catch him on the way out, act very concerned and start sharing your advice for kidney stones or chronic constipation because your cousin’s friend’s nephew had it really bad and made the most horrendous sounds and you’re terribly worried.
Or be super excited to have found someone else to join your campaign to make squatty potties available in all bathrooms.
Does the “watching something on his phone with headphones” thing seem to imply he’s watching adult videos in the office, or is that just my read of it. Yikes! Go to HR immediately!
is that less worrying than mastirbating?
The two aren’t mutually exclusive – it’s generally accepted that guys can multitask in that regard.
I’d say these probably go very commonly together.
OP has to actually hear the masturbating, so yeah I’d say it’s worse.
I think the issue here is now that he’s likely violating the workplace’s IT policies, if they have those written up. I’m pretty sure any employee handbook out there says not to watch pornographic videos while on the clock.
Which is probably far easier to verify than the other behavior in question.
That depends on whether he’s connected his phone to the company wifi or other company systems. For all we know he hasn’t.
It’s probably worth tipping off IT, but OP and OP’s management shouldn’t depend on that to solve the problem.
It at least immediately crossed my mind!
Mine, too.
That’s what I assumed!
It does, but I think the point of it being included was more to indicate why OP seems to think it’s plausible the offender doesn’t know how loud he is, not to suggest that’s either “worse” or “better”. It’s just part of the situation.
That doesent apply that at all. Its very common for unattentive people to not take their headphones off in the context of lightweight wireless phone calls, esspecially if they are talking to someone which is needed somtimes as the rest of the workplace is noisy.
We dealt with something similar to #2’s dilema. We brought on an inspector form another workgroup in the city; he was qualified and looking for a better paying position. The job requires a lot of self-motivation and planning and he just couldn’t do it. Give him a single job to do and bing,bang,boom, it gets done. Tell him that he needs to complete x number of inspections by the end of the year and it didn’t. No amount of coaching could get him to the point he needed to be, it just wasn’t something he could do. He ended up moving to a workgroup with a drop in pay where he was given daily assignments and was successful to the day he retired.
It’s very possible that the kind of work you need from Velma isn’t something she can do.
I think it’s worth examining if LW needs Velma to be more of a self starter OR if LW just feels uncomfortable with the difference between Velma and the high performers? This is where concepts like Situational Leadership can be helpful—leading people differently, arranging work differently, etc. (I do think Alison’s right LW should at least try just not solving the problem for Velma if it’s not urgent to do so.)
It’s very role dependent as you and Alison mention, but a mix of mid basic employees and high potential isn’t a bad thing. Having all high potential can be tricky too. You have to kind of think about the work and the team. Not everyone can be coached to be a self starter or high potential or even fully autonomous and independent in a role, but sometimes that’s okay too.
I felt the same reading the post. Some people need a lot of structure to thrive. Within that structure, they do an excellent job.
I do think it is getting harder to find these kinds of roles within many industries; teams are dynamic with shifting roles and responsibilities for individual members.
OP2, if research and fluid thinking are required elements for the job, you probably need to part ways with Velma. Or, can you find another use for her? Most businesses and projects need someone for rote tasks and reporting; Velma might do very well with a steady rota of defined tasks.
At least he accepted a drop in pay along with the role that suited him better. I have an employee who needs explicit assignments with documentation and processes, but complains that they are being micromanaged when they are given those things. Presumably because they see their coworkers not needing that level of direction, but I’m not sure. This employee gets very defensive and makes accusations of bullying when any kind of correction or coaching is attempted. I’m truly at a loss.
Trust that they are not fun for their high-performing coworkers to deal with either. Set real boundaries with actual consequences, then manage them out before the rest of your team leaves to avoid them.
I’ve come across a number of incompetent people who make bullying accusations to give themselves cover. They can and will ruin a whole department.
I recognize the technique; my 4-year-old niece has started saying she’s “scared of me” every time I tell her it’s time to stop watching her iPad. My stance is that she can have whatever feelings she needs to have about it, but I still need to keep the same calm attitude and take the same actions.
OP has to know by now who Velma is. “OP can find the answer faster…” settled that.
There are workplaces where you can stick Velmas in a tightly-defined role where they are “the guy”* for some particular task. They will keep their job, but they will not succeed and they will require all kinds of emotional labor from their managers to build the box for them.
And then there are workplaces like mine where no 2 problems are the same and they have to be able to think flexibly and to trouble-shoot things on their own. Velmas don’t last here.
I think OP has to make the call on which place they work at, and either accept Velma’s limitations – or fire them.
*Gender-neutral
Yup. My Velma got moved around from group to group because he really couldn’t do anything but set tasks that never changed, and that was definitely not what any of the jobs were in that place. Any manager stuck with Velma spent enormous amounts of time trying to find ways to make him useful. It was ridiculous. If you tried to put Velma on a PIP, the division head would halt the whole thing and move Velma to someone else…again. We were stuck with Velma until that division head was gone.
We’ve been dealing with a Velma for more than a year — absolutely won’t make a decision on even the most basic stuff without an OK from somebody, and it just bogs down the process. At one point, when the boss was MIA (probably tied up in massive meetings) we couldn’t raise her for an answer I made the decision to move something along and Velma said, “Will you take responsibility for this, then?” I already had but my patience was pretty damn thin at that point because it was a constant thing. I knew snapping at Velma wasn’t going to help so I didn’t. And then she was moved to another office where she was someone else’s problem. Then she got a promotion because we have very limited people with any training above beginner and apparently she was better than nobody. I have my doubts.
It’s unfair to jump to “Velma can’t do it”. The way I read the letter is that the manager needs to be more clear about expectations and how to go about finding her own answer. Anyone who has managed anyone that is not a “star performer” while having a star performer knows it’s easy to judge standards based on that star performer.
I have had multiple early career employees that I have had to “train” in this regard and almost all of them adapted successfully, it just took some time. As Alison says, starting with “what have you tried, how do you think you would find this information, I am not sure either, let’s talk it through” and then “go try it” is different than just saying “I need you to be more proactive in finding solutions”, but when she comes and asks I just give her the answer. If the employee doesn’t know how or are scared of failure or are afraid they are too slow or whatever else, or quieter and don’t want to “bother others” when they view their manager as “safe” you should be at least be trying to work through it with them and not just giving up if they are otherwise a decent employee. Perhaps she can’t or won’t learn, but if I had written off employees for this issue without working with them, I would have lost very solid performers that provided needed steady work, even if they weren’t my “stars”.
Yes! When I was a trainer/team lead there were always employees who were afraid to take off the training wheels. It wasn’t that they were incapable. They weren’t confident.
I did a lot of what Alison suggested. Ask them what they’d done to find the answer. What resources did they tap (and had they set up shortcuts to those resources)? And sometimes just “You tell me what the answer is because I know we covered this a couple times already.” Not surprisingly, they almost always knew the answers, they just lacked confidence. Their faces would light up when they realized they really did know the answer.
I agree that the reason that a Velma doesn’t do a thing is not always that they can’t do the thing. I once managed an employee, the most junior person on our team about whom my bosses complained “he needs way too much direction; he should have a handle on his tasks by now.” On one occasion, I noticed he was struggling with a problem that, to my mind, had a fairly straightforward solution. I suggested my workaround and he gratefully exclaimed “I didn’t know you could do that!” You see, his training was so geared toward the rigid confines of an established process (and being dinged whenever he made a process error) that despite being fully capable of thinking up creative solutions, it hadn’t occurred to him that he was allowed to do so. My years of experience + senior rank had taught me what kinds of process fudges could be allowed for the sake of problem solving (and I also had no reviewer to ding me). A newish, youngish employee simply wouldn’t have had the confidence to do the same, no matter how many times I’d told them “I need you to be more proactive.”
I don’t disagree that some people just can’t get there, but I also think this distinction is the line between “beginner” and “senior”. People who are incapable of exercising independent judgement won’t (and shouldn’t) get promoted. Even if you’re 2, 5, 10 years on the job, if you need everything spelled out, you’re at “beginner” level. Some people would be offended by that. Others just accept it as it is. If you don’t want to move up, then everything’s hunky dory. Where it becomes an issue is someone who has been doing the work for years and thinks they should get to move up, but they’re as productive as someone who has been doing it six months. And I’m including in “productive” the need for the hand-holding and the stuff to be spelled out.
I have a Velma, who has anxiety. When she comes to me for answers that she should be able to figure out herself, 90% of the time she’s really looking for reassurance. It didn’t help that our former boss was a micromanager, and as a result Velma was constantly second-guessing herself.
She’s comfortable enough with me that I can turn a question around and ask her what she thinks the answer is. She tells me, and I say sounds good, and off she goes. But she is also someone who prefers a lot of structure and does very well within it.
+1 Sometimes this is just an inherent flaw in an employee. Sometimes it’s a learned reaction to past micromanagement – and unfortunately, in that case, closer management is going to just make it worse. But turning it around into reassurance can really help.
re #1. Let’s clear one thing up: it’s not unusual for guys to knock one out in the toilet. But 5 – 6 times a day for 20-30 minutes each time? Upto 3 hours a day he’s missing in action (well, hiding in action)? Seriously? I’d be giving him a medal. But have you thought about having a word with him along the lines of “mate, if you’re beating the bishop in the bogs at least do it quietly”. See what happens.
The 5-6 times wasn’t mentioned as one day but as being repeated incidents leading the LW to assume that he is doing this every day based on how often he hears it
Right, exactly. OP was present for this happening 5-6 times, and indicates they’re not both in the office daily. It is unlikely that every single time this happened, OP coincidentally was also in the bathroom at the same time. So for OP to have run into it that often, suggests it’s likely happening much more frequently. Even if OP did have the bad luck of being present 5-6 times, that’s still WAY too many occurrences, but it’s almost certainly more frequent.
When MIA no longer means MISSING in action…
yes, they have thought about having a word with the guy; they specifically said “I would feel uncomfortable going up to him and saying, ‘Hey, I hear you jerking it every time we’re in the office, can you knock it off'”
I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a colleague to have to explain why audibly masturbating at work a few feet away from others isn’t actually okay. This is something the guy should know without a memo. Though there’re definitely times when colleagues need to say something is bothering them before going to HR, this isn’t one of them.
And it’s HR’s job to investigate such conjectures, not a random coworker’s job. Halfway decent HR isn’t going to just fire him on the spot and tell everyone the reason, they’ll start by asking him if the reports are true.
Why does that mean it’s on OP instead of HR? They tell HR what they know and HR will take it from there. HR will not listen to OP and then immediately fire the guy forever.
Even if this is a case of a medical issue being misinterpreted, how would the LW saying something to him (which would likely be out in the open, in earshot of all of his colleagues) be better than an email to HR (which would be private)? HR is still the best route in this situation.
I think you may be reading Ellis Bell wrongly; she’s saying that this is NOT a time when a colleague should say something before going to HR.
They shouldn’t have to explain that masturbating in the work bathroom is inappropriate.
LW has heard him doing it 5-6 times total – not 5-6 times a day.
Honestly I don’t know why it’s necessary to take this kind of ‘haw haw bit of a slip-up there old chap, better luck next time!’ sort of tone about it. It’s not funny. At best, if he somehow genuinely believes nobody can hear him, it is wildly inappropriate and exposing his colleagues to unwanted sexual behaviour in their place of work. At worst, if he is aware that people can hear him and is getting off on that then it’s something akin to flashing which is often a precursor to other very concerning sexual behaviours. He doesn’t need to ‘at least do it quietly’, he needs to cut it out.
Sorry to be blunt, I just do not have a sense of humour about this stuff at all.
“He doesn’t need to ‘at least do it quietly’, he needs to cut it out.”
I agree. I find this situation, from a distance, somewhat hilarious, but I have no idea where all this “as long as it’s quiet” or “as long as he’s doing it in private” its coming from.
This guy is at work. AT WORK. That’s neither the place nor the time to get off. And if it’s compulsive behaviour, then it needs to be addressed too.
Idk, man. I think masturbating at work is pretty freakin’ unusual.
I’m a woman and to be honest, I am a little shocked at the idea of masturbating where your coworkers can hear you. It feels like it could wait
Let’s clear one thing up: it’s not unusual for guys to knock one out in the toilet.
At home? Sure. In a public restroom? No, that IS unusual (or it should be). This isn’t a situation like a hotel room where you maybe don’t realize how thin the walls are; in a public restroom you KNOW if someone steps into the stall next to you they can hear you.
I actually agree with this poster. I have heard from numerous men that masturbating at work is common (some women have said they do it as well). That doesn’t make it OK, but I don’t think it’s unusual.
Excuse me *what*????? I’m a man and I would never ever even *think* of doing this at work
Are you all employed at a notorious orange and black adult website? Actually, I can guarantee they’re more professional there.
No, it is not normal to get off at work, solo or otherwise. The only situation where you should be pleasuring yourself in a workplace is when “pleasure” is your job, and then that’s typically filmed and not done in a bathroom stall next to your non-consenting coworkers.
I am giving some serious side-eye to the notion that is it ‘not unusual to knock one out in the bathroom’ at work.
I work with teenagers and even they know that belongs at home. Come on now.
I have link right now in moderation, but there’s a Psychology Today article that estimates about 40% of people have masturbated at work. It’s not uncommon at all.
Fair enough, it’s common. All the suggests is that it’s common to do inappropriate things at work, which isn’t exactly shocking.
Have masturbated at work and regularly, audibly masturbating at work are also two different things.
Right, but I’m responding to this part of the comment: it’s not unusual for guys to knock one out in the toilet.
At least according to my quick internet research, this is correct.
I think it’s that the LW encountered this scenario 5-6 times, and thinks it happens daily (ie, once, maybe twice), and the numbers are being conflated.
Is it usual for guys to be able to get through the workday without “knocking one out”? Because that seems like activity that should at minimum be reserved for break time.
Just for giggles, I asked my husband if this was common, and his response was essentially, “WTF are you talking about, no, not even when I was a disgusting teenager”. Even his grossest friend with questionable boundaries won’t even copy to doing this.
In my young and randy corporate days, I at least had the good sense to use a bathroom on another floor of the building, preferably one that had little traffic. or better yet, the building next door (they were connected by a courtyard).Was it established that this guy isn’t in there just taking a mini nap? Because I had a co-worker who would do that; he’d sit on the john for 30 minutes taking a little nap.
The only time I would nap on the toilet was just before I was evaluated for chronic insomnia. At that point that if I sat still for a couple minutes I would doze off. No, it isn’t normal. It’s actually rather dangerous, because it also could happen when driving if a light lasted too long. I have a CPAP now.
@Alison would the company in #5 be obligated to cover in any way the denied FMLA? I would want my PTO back!!
FMLA is unpaid leave. There’s no PTO to get back. It’s common to take PTO and FMLA concurrently, or to be required to use paid time off before taking time unpaid. The issue here is work basically refused to protect OP’s job, which is not cool. But there’s nothing to claw back.
I think Upside down Question Mark meant that LW should get back the PTO they took in lieu of FMLA. But that would raise other questions since PTO is paid and FMLA is not. I do think LW should go back to HR now with the DOL guidance and ask them to do something to make it right. This was a huge whiff on their part and could open the company up to legal liability.
Yes, but even if the FMLA was approved, the company could have still required LW5 to use PTO at the same time. That’s well within the bounds of the law and very common practice.
Yes, many companies require you to use your PTO when taking FMLA. All companies I’ve worked at throughout my career, that was the requirement. And something I had to do when I used FMLA after the birth of each of my children. FMLA protects your job while you are not, it does not replace using PTO for the time off.
What would have benefited #5 using FMLA is that they could have taken the month off completely to focus on the clinical trial and not had to do their job at the same time. I can’t say for sure what they’re company requires, but assuming they would still have needed to use PTO time, once that PTO was gone, they would just have had unpaid leave through the remainder of the clinical trial and not be concerned about losing their job due to being off work.
I don’t think there is anything that can be done retro-actively for the denied FMLA. It doesn’t even sound like OP even applied for FMLA through work, they were just given incorrect guidance through their EAP. I’m not sure how it is with other places, but EAP through all company’s I’ve worked at are an outside service used by the company. My workplace is not held accountable for any guidance provided by the EAP. But even to say if the OP had been fired after their clinical trial and the reason was because their work was subpar during that time, I still don’t think there would have been anything they could do since they did not have FMLA. You could tell HR/company management that you had wanted to apply for FMLA, but the EAP service gave you incorrect guidance, so you didn’t apply even though you should have. Maybe they would be sympathetic and change their stance, but the company is not obligated to.
Actually, rereading the letter it’s possible (against catastrophic odds) he doesn’t realize he’s being loud, so a hilarious note placed on his desk to find when he comes back would be an option.
“Dave, the entire office knows you’re Jerking off in there, we all hear it. Stop.”
Yes, I would have no issue going to my supervisor over this, but given OP doesn’t want to do that, my thought was either an anonymous note on his desk or in the men’s bathroom “please do not masturbate in work bathroom” OR an email to a group of men on the floor basically saying what he has here:
“I overheard someone masturbating in our work bathroom. I think speaking to HR would probably escalate it too much, and I really don’t want to have that conversation with them. Please don’t do it again.”
I was thinking this is one of the few situations where a group email is a good idea. You are definitely going to know it’s aimed at you, if it’s you.
If the guy’s judgement is poor enough that he’s doing it at work, I don’t think a group email is going to rectify the situation.
No, the guy’s just going to think “I’m surprised I’ve never been in there at the same time as this guy in the email.”
Per the LW he comes out of the bathroom wearing headphones, so assuming he wears them IN the bathroom he may well not know he’s being loud. Or he could have the mindset of those who talk on their cellphones in the bathroom, who seem to think that 1) no one else can hear them because each stall is equipped with a cone of silence and 2) the person they’re talking to won’t realize they’re multitasking.
If that is indeed the case, a note on his desk may be the way to go. While a well-timed flush or fart can be very effective in shutting down bathroom cellphone users, I suspect that may not be the case for this guy.
That’s another thing I absolutely hate, when people talk on the phone while in the bathroom. STOP THAT. I overheard some woman yapping on her phone in a public restroom yesterday. GROSS.
I’ve made phone calls in single-occupancy bathrooms just because it was the only place with any privacy.
FWIW, I’ve worked in several buildings where the only place you get cell service is in the bathrooms. If you need to make a quick call and don’t have time to take a 20 minute break to leave the premises making a call in the bathroom is your only choice. Doubly so if you have any physical issues and therefore can’t walk around the block or stand on the sidewalk for an extended period of time.
Oooooh, I hate when people talk on the cell phone in the bathroom! There’s someone at my office who does this a lot, and strangely, flushing does not deter her (I’ve tried). But yeah, if this guy is wearing headphones, a discrete noise to notify him that someone else is here and the walls are thin, might not be enough either.
Ha, I got yelled at for flushing…at work! The woman in the next stall was having a loud talk with a small child (and an adult in the background) and yelled “Hey, I’m having a conversation!” when I flushed. I didn’t recognize her voice, so I figured if I talked back to her it would be a Board member or something. But, if I’d recognized a colleague’s voice I would’ve (politely) pointed out that only one of us was using the bathroom for its intended purpose.
With respect to Sir Wanks-A-Lot, I’d probably knock on the adjoining stall wall and say “Hey, are you OK in there?” If he’s actually having a medical issue, which I doubt, you can get help; if he’s wacking off, ideally he’ll be embarrassed enough to stop.
honestly, this. this is the time for anonymous notes. leave it on his desk some day he’s not in office.
Yeah, usually I’m not an anonymous note person. But this might be the time.
While it’s possible the risk of getting caught is the thrill (but much less exciting when the people around you name that pattern, rather than just being silently uncomfortable), it seems quite likely that he believes he is being very stealthy. So the specific note, as like a soup microwaver he will be certain any generic message couldn’t mean him.
Nope. Leave an award certificate on his desk as winning mater ba tion award from the company. Or hang it on the back of his chair.
Heck leave it on the bathroom mirror on your way out the door.
He might not look at the mirror.
You just know this guy is the kind who *doesn’t* stop at the sink to wash his hands – being gross in public places shows up in various ways.
So yeah, he’s probably not going to be looking in the mirror.
ohhh, or inside the stall doors!
Leave it on the outside of the restroom door where no one can miss it.
People will walk into meeting rooms that have a large, red STOP sign on the door saying there is a confidential meeting going on, do not enter.
OP knows who this is, address a note to him if you want to do a note / sign.
I’d be tempted to hang a sign with the guy’s name on it: “Joe, please do not masturbate in here. Thanks.
–Your disgusted colleagues”
Yes! I think this is a situation where an anonymous note works best. I’m guessing he has no idea and unless he’s into the thrill of people hearing him, he’ll stop immediately and enjoy lunches in his car in a hopefully private back corner of the parking lot.
So if you were in HR’s shoes for #1, how would you start this conversation? I’m getting second-hand mortification just thinking about it.
I suppose this is one of these “just get straight to the point” situations, but maybe not? Do you have to assume what the coworker overheard is right? Do you need to ask “what are you doing in the bathroom for 30 minutes a day?”
Do it in writing, with a note you leave on the guy’s desk rather than on any company systems.
Just one more reason to be grateful that my job is still mostly WFH and that the office has single-stall bathrooms only.
As Ellis Bell responded below, having a discussion (with a witness, always with a witness) where you give the guy a chance to explain himself is the correct way to go. Doing it in writing does not allow for the nuance that a conversation face-to-face (or Zoom-to-Zoom) has. It points fingers and makes people defensive. HR needs to be able to gauge the guy’s level of discomfort. If he looks abashed, then the conversation has a chance of achieving the desired effect – making him stop. If not, then HR knows there’s a whole lotta else going on that they need to investigate. I still don’t envy this HR that conversation!!
Do not leave anonymous notes to correct bad behavior. That will just cause paranoia and resentment, and is fairly childish.
I dunno, I feel like if you’re whackin’ it at work regularly, you should be QUITE a lot more paranoid than this guy seems to be. Generally I do agree with you, but if you behave in a publicly shameful way, public shaming isn’t really an unexpected consequence.
Fine for a coworker who really wants to be anonymous; not fine for HR officially looking into the situation.
You would get straight to the point. For one thing, you need to make sure they understand, and agree to stop, or have an opportunity to offer up a different explanation on the very remote chance that there is one. But everyone involved deserves to have this dealt with forthrightly. (something punny about not jerking around? nah) Besides, I’m not sure why OP thinks the remoteness of HR is a bad thing, I imagine both sides of this conversation would prefer it to come from someone the colleague doesn’t have to see a lot of.
Besides, I’m not sure why OP thinks the remoteness of HR is a bad thing, I imagine both sides of this conversation would prefer it to come from someone the colleague doesn’t have to see a lot of.
I think that this is an excellent point.
This is definitely one of those “just say it” situations. “Fergus, I’m just going to say it: several staff members have reported that you’re masturbating regularly in the 3rd floor bathroom. This is not an activity you can do in the workplace.” And then stop to see if he has anything to say for himself.
I don’t think that there’s any thing you can say to soften how awkward the conversation is going to be, so might as well rip the bandaid off.
I think there’s room to give him a bit of cover with plausible deniability. Something like “Fergus, several staff members have reported hearing concerning noises when you’re in the bathroom. Apparently it sounds like you’re masturbating, but we’re aware that certain medical issues could cause this as well. Is there something we need to be concerned about?”
Then if it’s medical, you talk about accommodations or whatever; if he says it’s not medical and it’s nothing to worry about, you say “I’m glad to hear that; now let me be clear that the noises are inappropriate and need to stop.”
I mean, I’m sure OP knows what masturbating sounds like, and this could be quite a generous interpretation of plausible deniability! But it might make the conversation a little easier, rather than jumping straight to “don’t masturbate in the bathroom.”
But OP doesn’t want the noises to stop–he wants the masturbating to stop! Need to be more explicit, I’m afraid.
It’s not really the LW’s business if it stops or not. What IS his business is the noise. If he *really* manages to turn the sound effects off, then what the LW does not see or hear is not going to affect him.
You’re right, that’s a better approach. Though I think I’d say “Whatever is causing the noises must stop” because I’d worry if you said “the noises are inappropriate and need to stop” he’d try to keep doing it, just more quietly.
That’s my take, too, and I like the language. In case the coworker is not doing it on purpose (because he wants to be observed) it might save him embarrassment, otherwise it will prevent him from getting defensive and trying to turn the discussion around.
Private conversation. Point out that there have been issues raised about activity in the bathroom that sound like adult activity and ask what the explanation is.
(Also, rope in IT. You’d be amazed what we can find…)
If he’s watching adult content on the network while “using the bathroom”, as his phone/headphones seem to suggest, that might be reason for dismissal without having to deal with the rest.
People. Don’t watch porn at work.
My understanding is that if you’ve been in HR any length of time you are depressingly accustomed to having that sort of coversation.
It is unusual to encounter such a clear exception to the fiction that bathrooms are perfectly sound-insulated.
It certainly puts the responses to Wednesday’s letter (“Working from home while men’s bathroom is out of order”) in a different light!
#1 — You know that at least one of your colleagues has had the same awful experience of being in a stall next to this guy. Can the two of you agree that if you encounter the situation again, you can bang a few times on the wall between the two stalls? I imagine you could get out of your stall quickly enough at that point that you could remain anonymous. It could be worth a try to make that guy stop with his truly gross behavior.
I dunno—if he’s antisocial enough to be routinely masturbating at work, he’d probably just ignore someone banging on the walls. (I used to work in a building with a woman who was ALWAYS on her phone in the ladies room. No amount of banging or repeated flushing deterred her.)
BLECH.
#2
Fear of failure can be a strong block. Assurances that she won’t be punished for mistakes made when trying to solve on her own would go a long way to overcoming this obstacle.
When she brings up the idea that you would be able to answer faster, or the fact that she didn’t have all the relevant information, let her know what you shared in your letter: that you also have to spend time looking it up, and so no efficiency is being gained.
Yeah, but as someone who also struggles with reminding myself that current job isn’t the job where the boss would punish me for things I couldn’t possibly have known (including that she changed her mind about what she wanted after talking to me and didn’t update me on that), admitting that I don’t know what to do also feels like failure, so I don’t know if that’s what’s going on with Velma.
At any rate, I think OP’s past the point where they need to be trying to reason out with Velma why it’s a problem. There have been multiple conversations on that, including in Velma’s formal assessments. Velma simply needs to accept it can’t keep happening if she wants to succeed here and come up with other solutions.
I find asking simple questions each and every time she brings you an issue can help. What do you think? What have you tried? What are your options? How do you think we should handle this? Etc. She will quickly learn that she needs to you with a perspective and having tried various options before she asks for your guidance.
I work at a help desk where we are generalists rather than specialists and it’s a very common occurrence to be asked to fix something you’ve never seen before. We have a robust knowledge base and a lot of other internal resources (plus Google is a thing) but still there are some people who just cannot hang with that. I’ve developed an interview exercise to help screen for that, which has significantly improved the quality of our hires, but it still comes up.
I do think fear of failure is part of it, as is feeling a need to get answers quickly. (We have one tech who does pretty well until a customer is even slightly unhappy, then he falls apart.) I once had to straight-up tell a tech, “If you try this and it doesn’t work, what’s the actual worst that could happen?” And we have some people who I think are just lazy, which shows up in their work in other ways.
But there’s part of it that I think is just an intrinsic lack of curiosity and/or lack of ability to extrapolate. They know that something is the solution in cases A, B, and C, but don’t think to try it for D. They can’t skim an article or webpage to find the relevant information. They aren’t willing to click on something if they don’t know exactly what it does. For whatever reason, the idea of trying something to see what happens is akin to the idea of flapping their arms to fly.
Sometimes it’s trainable! I’ve had people who weren’t great at searching but got better if I would tell them how I found my answer. Some people get the hint if I become a broken record of “What have you tried already?” and point them in the correct direction of finding the answer rather than giving it to them. Sometimes they need a blunt “you know what needs to be done, you don’t need my permission” or to see the actual numbers of how many times they reached out for help and how many times it was something they could have done entirely on their own. (It’s a fine line to get them to be more self-reliant without making them feel like they can never reach out because there are still times when it really is necessary.)
But sometimes… they just can’t do it. Often those people are unhappy in the job since they’re very much aware that they’re underperforming. They end up moving to another team within our org or leaving on their own. (It’s very rare that we actively give someone the boot for performance issues.) Others are just perfectly content to be mid. Not everyone needs to be a rock star, and they contribue enough that it’s worth keeping them around.
Of course, we’re a pretty large department and I’m one of several people tasked with training and supporting agents, which is a task for which we set aside dedicated time. If 1/3 of my staff were taking me away from my job on a regular basis for things they could do themselves, that would be more of a problem and would strike me as just a mismatch for the position.
Re. LW5, just wanted to note that despite being commonly misused, “elective” in medical parlance actually just means “not an emergency/not urgent”, i.e., the treatment can be scheduled a suitable time for the patient, doctor and facility. It is not a synonym for “not medically necessary” or “optional”. Most necessary medical procedures are in fact “elective”.
“
Case in point: a friend had an “elective” heart bypass. Medically necessary, but he had a six- month wait.
Yep. Back in 2005, my husband had a cancerous kidney removed (fortunately, it was stage 1 and he didn’t need any treatment besides the surgery). That was elective surgery I think it
was scheduled 5-6 weeks out. Non-elective surgery would be if he showed up at the emergency room with a ruptured appendix.
When I broke my spine, the x-ray to follow-up to see if my spine was still broken was initially considered non-urgent. Since it was the middle of covid, that meant they would give me an appointment. My spine doctor had to call and be like, “No I need to know if her spine if still broken and if she needs surgery”.
Medical terminology is weird sometimes.
I was thinking this, and that much or all family caregiving could be considered “optional” by the same standard used by the LW’s EAP, even though we know that that’s definitely covered by FMLA.
Agreed. They wouldn’t tell someone who needs 6 weeks for a hip replacement that they can’t use FMLA. Appalling that they would make you dial in during a blood draw or that OP felt they had to.
Agreeing – “elective” is about WHEN you have treatment, not whether or not it is medically necessary. You/the hospital might be able to choose next week or next month or next year to administer the treatment, but it can still be entirely essential medical treatment.
If it’s not elective, it means you will die if you aren’t treated immediately.
+1. “Elective” just means that appropriate facilities can be scheduled in advance, and that the doctor and patient have a chance to prepare. My breast cancer surgery was technically elective. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t medically necessary.
As the surgeon who gave me a second opinion said (paraphrasing), “If we don’t do this now electively, it likely will get to a point later when you will need to have it done on an emergency basis, and it is far better to do it now where we have more control over the conditions. If it’s not elective, it is an emergency, and emergencies are not great.”
Yes!
“Elective” should almost always just be read as “scheduled ahead of time”.
I had two elective oophorectomies. My child had an elective bilateral congenital hernia repair. My spouse is in the process of scheduling elective hiatal hernia surgery. My mom had elective cataract surgeries.
All of these were/are medically indicated and necessary!
I do wonder if HR completely misunderstood what “clinical trials” meant. I know that there are some trials that recruit research subjects for the purpose of studying conditions or testing a preventative measure. Basically, they’re paying people to be guinea pigs and advance science, rather than with the goal of treating their condition.
I imagine that, like plastic surgery, being employed as a general-purpose guinea pig would be considered “optional” health treatment, as opposed to what the LW described (a clinical trial for treatment of their condition).
Honestly, I’d consider going for a variant of the anonymous note – but rather than delivering anything secretly to the culprit’s desk, I’d merely hang signs on the back of each stall door reminding users that the bathroom is a shared space and thus any activities can be – and are being – heard by other users of the bathroom. Even though it’s in a locked stall* surely the audible nature of the activities means this can come under the broad header of sexual harassment?
*is this in the US, because my experience of individual locked stalls in the US is that you get way less privacy than in an individual locked stall in the UK, which makes this behaviour even more unreasonable. It’s already mortifying enough that you might accidentally make eye contact with a passerby while they’re peeing…
I assumed US since yes, our bathroom stalls hardly give any privacy at all. Basic practice when entering a bathroom in the US (speaking for women’s restrooms since we don’t have open urinals), is to only glance at the doors to see if one is visibly open indicating it’s not occupied. If all doors appear closed, we lean down to look for feet under the door rather than peer through the (IMO) too wide cracks around the door.
I was recently in a nice restaurant and had to use the restroom. When I returned to the table, I told my husband that a European must have designed the restroom because the stalls had floor to ceiling walls and door, so you had complete privacy! It was amazing and I surely would love this to be the norm everywhere here in the US.
Re #1: Would being subjected to hearing masturbation in the office bathroom qualify as workplace sexual harassment (assuming this person is in the US)?
Probably, because it’s subjecting others to hearing sexual content they don’t want to hear. However, because it’s a bathroom, I’m not sure how reasonable expectation of privacy vs sexual harassment would play out, and it’s probably easier to just fire the person for watching adult videos on the office wifi (assuming that he’s doing that) or other related reasons than go the sexual harassment route.
Re number one.
I went to use the stall in the men’s room at the place I work and I found a bottle of hand lotion in the stall.
D:
Moved the lotion. We have no idea who the phantom wander is.
Wanker. Damn you auto correct.
*gigglesnort* the wandering wanker…
Lool.
I am sure there is some fan fiction that has wandering wankers.
Not all who wander and wank are lost.
I’m so glad I’m not in the office right now because I can’t stop laughing :D
But the Phantom Wanderer would be a good title for a book.
It really would!
You…touched it? Surely that deserves some kind of valor award.
OP2 – the “she wasn’t sure and knew I could find the answer faster” bit is a very ‘lazy teen’ type answer. It’s like my offspring grousing “you’re better at this, you do it” regarding housework*. I wasn’t born knowing how to sort laundry or which products are best for scrubbing the toilet, kid, I learned by doing it and so can you!
* aged 13-ish. He’s an adult and a lot more competent now.
Standard teenage whine, standard parental answer: “all the more reason for you to do it, you need the training”.
This employee does seem to be leaning into the trope “Office sit coms are popular because the dynamics are like a family, where I’m an awkward tween and the boss is my parent telling me to do chores.”
That is, just as a management thing: while I wouldn’t name the pattern quite that crudely, the employee is writing herself a powerless role when that’s not what the job is. “If I never take initiative, then I can never be wrong” is not advice to apply willy nilly to all situations.
This, so much this.
That said, I’m glad we started our son on chores when he was still young enough to think it was a fun game to help empty the dishwasher and sort laundry, etc. Now at 15 he’s more houseproud than I am and his room is usually the cleanest and least cluttered in the house…
That said, some employees are incapable of learning this, and they need jobs with little or no autonomy and ambiguity. I wouldn’t assume anything about this employee without trying at least once more to say to them that they need to take responsibility for their work and to work on being more autonomous, because that’s what this job requires. And also to give them the support they need to get there, like allowing for human mistakes, and telling them where to look first before giving them the answer, etc.
I totally get the impulse to just do it myself, because it is faster, but that is not being a good manager! You have to put it back on her every single time. “What did you try?” “Did you do X?” Even “I think that answer is in Y location” is better than finding it yourself.
Agreed – with my kids, the way I semi broke them of that habit was to make them do the chore again until they did it correctly (or at least passably).
I would set it as a condition that the employee must show 3 ways that she tried to find the answer before asking the manager for help, unless it was an entirely new task (which I definitely would not assign to her).
I had a coworker who used to pull this on me. I finally told her, “Maybe, but I’m not going to do it at all, so it will definitely be faster if you do it yourself.” And then didn’t do it for her. She eventually finished the project so I guess she did find it.
And the other argument is that unless that person can do your other tasks (and do them faster) it’s best that they do their own work and you do yours. Maybe less applicable with coworkers, but it definitely applies. When I supervised student workers I had to remind *myself* of that all the time. Sure, I could do their job faster. But there was also a lot on my plate that I definitely couldn’t delegate, so their doing other things slowly was still more efficient overall than my trying to do it all.
I had a similar issue when I was the senior grad student in our research lab. The two junior students I shared an office with would interrupt me on the regular. Now, I want to be helpful – plenty of more advanced students had helped me out – but it was getting disruptive. And part of being helpful to them was getting them ready to sort through problems after I graduated.
So the rule became that they could ask me stuff they couldn’t figure out themselves with up to 5 minutes of searching in reference books, etc. Fortunately, they were both lovely people and were on board right away. The number of interruptions dropped significantly and the questions they would ask were totally reasonable. They even started proactively telling me what they had already tried to solve the problem.
I worked for a *boss* like this once. She had been in her role for decades and this well into the age of Google, but she would still call people up to answer questions she should have known the answer to or which she could have answered with a couple of minutes of basic research. Sometimes she would even phone people at our partner organisations. It was embarrassing.
The number of times that I have resent my manager an email that he could/should have been able to find with 30 seconds of using the search function is… not small. I now default to searching my own email while we’re on the phone and giving him the subject line and maybe time stamp of the email. About 50% of the time he’ll then find it. The rest of the time, at least I am already set to forward it again. He’s been a great manager in other ways that matter way more. And his inbox is indeed a horror. So I am currently only mildly annoyed by this habit.
#3
It sounds like they have extra projects because it’s busy time, not because they gave notice.
The OP isn’t saying the extra work is because they are leaving, they are asking if they can work their usual full time schedule without doing the extra hours until they leave.
OP here, yes this is correct.
They just don’t have enough people to do the work, and they are trying to squeeze me. I’d been asking for a promotion because of my scope change and responsibility increase since August, and after a glowing PR in Dec they told me I’d be transitioning to another team for the same pay and same title.
And then my new manager said there was a possibility of being promoted in 6 months when I raised concerns about this and received my new job description from HR (same title, same pay). Then she gave me these new accounts, despite my concerns about not having enough time to manage this transition I didn’t ask for alongside these accounts, because it would “look good for promotion”, despite the fact that he or my past manager could have advocated for me and I would have been promoted already (there’s no set schedule for these things).
So I’m a bit bitter, and yes best to leave on time.
While I totally get this sentiment, I just want to flag this as a great example of why giving a long notice like this isn’t the best idea.
In the past for different jobs I’ve given 2 months and 3 months notice for jobs, where ultimately I was the only one in the job. In both cases that notice wasn’t long enough to hire my replacement (let alone allow me to train them) – but in the 3 month period, that time really helped me out and was useful in preserving my reference.
That all being said, in both cases I was expected to work exactly the same as normal until my last two weeks. I could flag new projects that it maybe wasn’t wise to put me on, but the overall expectation is that I’d be working as normal until much closer to my last day.
In both cases the long notice was helpful in maintaining my references, but also allowing me to continue to get paid through a period where I was not looking to be unemployed. I do think that it’s really common for younger people going to grad school to give notice early because that length of notice gets painted as being helpful. But honestly, I think it does more to cause you to check out mentally of doing your job and also putting you at risk of your supervisor telling you they don’t need you the full two months.
this is one of the rare times I disagree with Alison.
I am in the middle of tax season, and if I gave notice I sure as heck wouldn’t be able to work 40 hours a week instead of 60 hours a week during our busy time.
even now, we have “regular hours” of 8:00 to 5:30, but that’s just the hours that the office is open for clients to come in. We certainly have to work way more hours than that.
I think Alison is still correct. You should work your normal hours, not extra. For tax season, your normal hours are 60 a week. If you were expected to work 80 hours, that would still be unreasonable. If the normal job was 20 hours and the work being given was for 40 hours, that would also be unreasonable.
But that’s VERY different from OP. You work in an industry with a pretty defined “VERY busy time”. OP is working in a spot where they haven’t hired enough people, which is why she’s getting the work and being expected to work long hours.
Hi, I’m the OP! It is a busy time for everyone. In my ideal world, because I’m new to these 2 accounts, they would remove me.
I don’t think they’ll be open to a “I can’t do x, y and z, how do I prioritize them?” conversation, so I’ll just do what I can and try to stick to my regular hours.
I should mention that after having my scope and responsibilities double last year and asking for a promotion since August because of this and my tenure in the role (2.5+ years), after my glowing December performance review, I was told my reward would be….a lateral move with no raise to a new team that I did not ask for.
And my new manager told me that promotion would potentially come after I proved myself in 6 months after I was told to take on these new accounts, despite my concerns about not having the time to deal with the transition and these new accounts, “because it would look good for promotion”.
So, definitely managing some bitterness as well and I don’t think working extra hours for free will help with that.
Sounds like getting out is the right move for you!
Wow. With that history, they’re lucky you’re giving them two months’ notice. I’d be tempted to take off earlier.
Agreed – I would consider the reference implications if it is busy time.
I’m guessing the OP is an accountant. It’s definitely busy time for accountants and tax professionals right now. Not doing the full job (regardless of hours) would certainly be remembered and resented by colleagues.
If the employer is trying to stack on work because the OP is quitting, I would certainly not accommodate that – that would be unreasonable.
But if it’s just the busy season, and this was known and expected, I would at least try to do as much as I could to take the usual burden of work.
I don’t think that matters. Once everyone knows you’re on your way out the door, it’s reasonable to stop going above-and-beyond. That’s true even in crunch time, and goes double when you’ve given the courtesy of a long notice period so your company has time to replace you before you leave.
For #2, I used to have a manager who would ask what ideas I had. Often it’s a case of them knowing the answer but not having the confidence to follow through, or wanting someone to confirm they’re doing the right thing.
Yes, or doing the first thing everyone says and having it blow up into a big mess ..
I am exactly the same way – as others have mentioned in this thread, it’s a fear of doing something the wrong way. My supervisor also puts it back on me, saying “what do you think?”.
Sometimes people with IBS or conditions with similar symptoms, have painful bowel movements. A little gasping or grunting will be done with these.
Of course, people should try to be quiet and considerate, but can’t always be completely silent. I used to have these symptoms before I figured out what foods were causing it and took them out of my diet. Once or twice I’ve heard others doing this in shared restrooms, and fully sympathize.
Multiple people think it is not IBS or similar. I think it’s worth talking to HR about and letting them handle it.
As somebody who’s struggled a great deal with IBS at work, I can confidently say that those trips to the bathroom do not sound particularly sexual.
(By which I mean IBS trips to the bathroom.)
“gasping or grunting”
I don’t think that’s the sounds that are leading OP to conclude that they are masturbating.
This was meant as a reply to Wellies comment on the Harriet Vane thread at the top. I didn’t see until now that it was separated as a new comment. Sorry, all!
For #1 – did you recently have a RTO mandate? It could be he’s still getting used to being back in the office after a long stint of WFH where this sort of thing would be more acceptable
Yeah, no.
Come on now.
still ew.
Okay, but – loudly masturbating in a public bathroom has never been acceptable; and by definition WFH doesn’t include public bathrooms.
Even if he is somehow coming from a place where it’s acceptable – OP has heard him do it at least 5-6 times, and he doesn’t specify that’s it’s happening every day. So it’s reasonable to assume Jack has been back in the office for at least a couple of weeks. It’s time to re-adjust to social norms again.
And? How does that change the advice on what to do? The only thing that changes if I’m struggling to remember I can’t nap in the office (instead of masturbate) is that my colleague might feel more comfortable talking to me about that than, I cannot stress this enough, sexually pleasuring oneself in the office, a thing that is not now and has never been even slightly appropriate.
I work in an office with a nap room – it’s a little weird at first but there’s nothing like going in and relaxing for a few minutes
Which changes the advice… how?
Look, I’m probably someone who would engage in quite a bit of petty work-to-rule stuff if forced to RTO, but exposing my coworkers to sexual activity is clearly not in the category of quiet protest.
I don’t really think that’s what happened – just trying to imagine the reasons behind something so bizarre
There are 68 comments so far as I write this. The majority say that the man in the bathroom doesn’t know he’s being so loud, would be mortified to know he can be heard, and just notifying him will be enough to stop the behavior. The question is whether H.R. does the notification or anonymous note or a co-worker. I’m of the minority opinion. He knows damn well, and that’s part of the thrill. It’s a variation on flashing. He’s getting off on shocking or making others uncomfortable, or it could be a form of flirting, of putting himself out there so to speak to see if someone wants to join him. That’s what puts people in the mind of police involvement. It’s akin to a minor sex crime. So, yes, get H.R. involved, but do so with the emphasis on there being something wrong with the guy. This is not a harmless slip.
The majority of comments aren’t saying that at all. They’re just not as extreme as your reading.
I agree with you. People don’t masturbate at work for non-nefarious reasons.
Sure they do. I’ve done it when I was a young woman. I was bored and didn’t have enough work to do. There was hardly anyone else in the office, and I made damn sure to be quiet and fast, and would definitely have stopped if anyone else walked into the washroom. Hasn’t anyone else here been young, horny, and stupid?
The guy in OP1 is wrong in subjecting other people to it.
Sorry, this is unhinged.
It’s really not. I’ve known multiple people who did that when they were in their 20s. When you get older your sex drive gets less urgent and distracting.
What kind of 20s were you having? No, I agree, this is super unhinged.
Yeah. There were a couple of times in my early twenties where I was hot and bothered at work so I went and knocked one out real fast (in the single-occupancy bathroom, so no chance of being overheard) because at the time I actually felt that was more responsible than trying not to squirm in my seat for the rest of my workday.
In retrospect, I think that logic was flawed, but even at my youngest, dumbest, and horniest I would not have done anything like what it sounds like OP’s coworker is doing.
We had this same situation in my workplace. A group of men went to the male director (they didn’t want to go to our female boss) and the director took it straight to HR. It wasn’t the only weird thing this guy was doing, and we found out about all kinds of other stuff after he got fired. It’s got to be reported.
exactly. i would be looking at all his work too. if he’s OK doing this repeatedly at work, what isn’t he doing that he should be doing?
OP, are you salary / are they paying you extra for the overtime? Say no especially if you’re not getting paid more (even if you are, it’s your prerogative if you’d rather have the extra time, but if not I can’t help but think they’re just trying to squeeze you for whatever they can get)
they must have *just* given notice because they said they are going back to school in May, and that’s not even two months from now unless are taking a week or two off before they start school.
also said that they were given two additional projects during the last month, which sounds like your favorite given the additional projects before they gave notice. so I don’t think they’re trying to squeeze more work out of them because they are quitting.
it sounds more to me like it is a busy time of year in general, and not everybody is probably working extra hours.
I swear I edited this before I hit submit, but it was supposed to say it sounds like they were given the additional projects before they gave notice.
OP here, yes I am salaried, and yes they are trying to squeeze me. I’d been asking for a promotion because of my scope change and responsibility increase since August, and after a glowing PR they told me I’d be transitioning to another team for the same pay and same title.
So I’m a bit bitter, and yes best to leave on time.
I should say yes they are trying to squeeze me, but not because I’m leaving. Because they need more people. They should replace me and get another person.
Also, this is a good lesson re: notice periods. Except under very specific circumstances or if you have an employment contract (rare in the U.S.), a notice period longer than 2 weeks is a bad idea. A notice period of 2 months is a really bad idea.
I’d agree with this.
It sounds like the OP’s employer is short staffed and so there’s a blanket assumption that they’re unlikely to be let go because they need the people to do the job. However, the need someone to do the job with overtime hours as that’s how it’s presently being managed.
If the hope for the OP is to keep their job for two months and work less – I’m not 100% sure that’s a possibility while keeping references intact. I do think that this risks putting the OP in a situation of being resented or thought of ill in their remaining notice period for leaving certain tasks undone or needing to be assigned elsewhere. Not to mention, being asked to leave sooner because that may be the only way that team can get a new person to do the full scope of work.
It’s clear the OP is done with this job and looking to get out, and I totally get that. But really wouldn’t recommend a long notice period as providing that off ramp.
Since they are going back to grad school how much do they care about preserving a reference with this organization?
Since OP is quitting to go back to grad school, do they care about keeping this reference intact? It could be a couple of years before they are applying to jobs again, and potentially in a different industry or entering at a different level such that this reference isn’t as important as the new degree.
I don’t think you’re wrong, but I also don’t think that lesson really has anything to do with the notice period? This is the busy period. They need more people. That’d be true whether OP had given notice already or not. If OP were intending to leave in May but hadn’t told them yet, they’d still have been handed these two extra accounts. So, the long notice period is sort of irrelevant in terms of what OP can do.
Got it – well you know your industry and local practices best (like, say, tax season I know there’s always a boom-bust cycle that standard practice seems to be to just work people hard in the boom season – though good management would involve some kind of compensation for that even if it’s just more time off in the off season) – and you’d know best if you’re employer saying “wellll, op3 refused to work over 50 hours per week at the end of their tenure” will reflect badly on you, but I’d heavily lean on the side of not burning yourself out for their benefit since from what you write here it sounds like maybe they just like under-staffing and then blaming their employees for not wanting to make up for management decisions.
It sounds like at this point it’s reasonable to assume he doesn’t know that what he’s doing is audible. It’s not illegal to do private activities in a place where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
Anyone who really thinks that no one in a neighboring stall can hear what’s going in their stall has been living under a very large rock.
For a reasonable person, ‘hey just so you know, people can hear that and it’s gross’ would be enough to put a stop to the behaviour immediately
A *reasonable* person should not need to be told that. Which means that this guy is either not reasonable or clueless to the point of being a problem to deal with.
it sounds like he hasn’t been told that.
For the very sane reason that it’s a gross subject to have to discuss at work with someone who is, at best, exhibiting bad judgement.
Is it something the police should be called about, absolutely not.
Agreed. Gross and stupid is not the same as illegal or police territory.
For number four, another option would be to use a former professor if she hasn’t been out of school that long. It’s fairly common in those early years when choices are limited.
Yes! Especially if she did any work for them like TA or research assistant.
I was going to suggest this, too. Before I got my current job, the only references I had were instructors and a volunteer coordinator.
I get these requests from time to time and am (almost) always happy to be a reference!
I’ve done employment references for almost all my research/independent study students and sometimes just students who took my classes. I think for new graduates this is very common, and most employers seem happy to accept my references.
yes- also I’m a volunteer coordinator and i absolutely am fine with being that reference.
i give glowing ones to volunteers i know well, but if someone calls/ emails reminding me their chemistry club spent 1 day rehabbing the garden (or whatever) I will look up my sign in sheet, verify the kid was there, and gladly say “yes, Jim and his club generously did 7 hours of work. Jim shower up on time and was very helpful”
generally that’s enough for entry level roles
don’t forget volunteer work. if she did anything like tutor other students, mentorship, etc that will all count!
You guys are shockingly chill about the guy masturbating at work.
Surely you jest. That’s not the impression I got AT ALL.
I don’t think there’s a single comment here that says “This is fine!” At best, you’ve got a few “Maybe he doesn’t realise how loud he is, but it’s still gross” comments out there.
Idk, the fact that people are trying to qualify or caveat the behaviour at all is weird as hell.
Agreed. We all understand that masturbating at work is unacceptable af, right???
Go to HR, do not pass go, do not write any notes.
THANK YOU. I feel like I’ve entered some sort of alternate dimension with wildly different social norms.
There was a pretty dedicated troll arguing that it was a-okay and if the letter writer said anything the masturbator’s life would be RUINED and then he’d DIE and then we’d all be SORRY and the poor guy was probably just changing a catheter anyway, but all his stuff got deleted.
I fail to believe that changing a colostomy bag (the other excuse) sounds even remotely like…you know…
Also, something I just realised typing this? HE WOULD HAVE USED THE ACCESSIBLE TOILET FOR THAT!
I can’t believe so few people are advising the LW to go directly to HR. This is exactly the kind of situation where you get HR involved and don’t try to fix it yourself with passive-aggressive approaches like anonymous notes or vague comments.
This is pretty much the only site where I will interact in the comments because the majority of the people on here make carefully considered comments using standard business language, and they make an effort to be kind. The flip side of that is that there is some-degree of excuse-making that maybe does go too far in an effort to be understanding, but I’d rather have that than people posting all kinds of vitriol.
I’m the sort of person who wouldn’t go to HR if my hair was on fire and they had the only extinguisher, and *I’m* saying the guy should be reported – but I can say that in a pretty chill way. Like at work I wouldn’t say “That’s the stupidest thing I’m ever heard. You must be an idiot.” I’d say “That’s an interesting take on this. I’ll give your idea all of the consideration it merits.”
I think ultimately it comes down to suspicious bathroom noises and long breaks – to a certain extent what someone does in the bathroom is their own business but certainly someone can raise that the bathrooms are only semi-private and a shared resource at work if they’re experiencing something bothersome. Even if said thing was just an especially rank bathroom smell there’s still steps that could be taken if that was a recurrent issue
LITERALLY
OP #5: I’m sorry to ask – why did you approach the EAP instead of HR directly? Is this how your employer has their leave system set up? I’m honestly curious. Any HR worth their salt would have whipped out the FMLA paperwork at the mention of the clinical trial, especially knowing you’re in a wheelchair. We’d just assume it was for whatever condition made you need the wheelchair – we can determine from the paperwork if it’s something else, but that’s what the paperwork is for. I’m sorry you were denied FMLA, and you can certainly bring it up to your HR now if you like. Normally, I’d say bring it up to the DOL because your employer interfered with your right to take time off under FMLA. In this case, since you (unfairly) made do, you can save the time in case something else pops up within the next year. Or take an extra long vacation with the PTO they would have made you take concurrent with FMLA ;-)
I probably should have, I just didn’t really know what I was doing. (“What to do if you’re in a clinical trial” isn’t a thing that usually comes up in career advice.)
Anyway, I didn’t have a written record of that conversation so I don’t think I’ll take any action about that time, but it’s good to know I have the option if I want to do another trial in the future.
It actually should be part of the information the clinical trial gives you, though! May be worth feeding back to them if this is a gap in their guidance for patients.
#2: The OP wrote “All three employees have been with the company for about the same amount of time, so I expect them to have similar levels of knowledge.”
I wonder whether the three employees have the same amount of experience. If the two ‘stars’ have fifteen years experience each and the one ‘non-star’ has five, then I wouldn’t expect them to have similar levels of knowledge. In general, I’d expect the ones with more experience to learn faster and solve problems on their own.
This statement really resonates with me: ” In some jobs it would be prohibitive; in others it might just mean that she can’t advance or won’t be compensated in the same way as Betty and Sally are.”
It sounds like this is a case of a high-achiever wanting their team to be all all-stars. That doesn’t normally happen. I’d ask the manager to consider whether they need her to be as good as they’d like or if they just have really high expectations for their employees. But it can be hard to find even just solid employees.
Honestly, in many jobs, even if you’re new to the field and the work as well as the company, two years is long enough to start coming up with potential answers and solutions instead of just asking your manager to do that. Not in all jobs, but in many. It certainly doesn’t sound like an unreasonable expectation as stated.
I suspect Velma is reasoning “If I don’t make decisions, then boss cannot get mad at me for choosing wrong.”
Which is certainly a pattern some people learn. But once you’re an adult, slapping that pattern on everyone around you–like they’re all variations on Dad Who Yelled At Me When I Was Five–isn’t fair to those people. And they will try to avoid dealing with you.
I think you have a reasonable point that knowing more about the industry being discussed would help. I agree there are some positions where two years experience is a significant amount.
I also think the difficulty of the questions being discussed also is relevant. Are we talking basic tasks or more complicated project level strategy? It seems you’re thinking more that this is basic tasks and I’m thinking these are more discussing long-term projects.
By experience, I don’t just mean whether they’re new to the field and the company. I also mean how much experience the employee has with work in general. How much experience the person has with the tools that the team works with? How much experience the employee has solving issues on their own? If this person has five years of work experience, they may not have much experience solving problems on their own.
I work with plenty of people with twenty years experience that might able to solve questions for basic tasks that they’re assigned, but can’t do it for anything at a higher level than that. In general, they won’t advance, but they’re still going to be valued members of the team because they can complete tasks if helped. There are plenty of people that can’t do anything regardless of how much help they get.
She’s been in this role for two years, so we know she has at least two years of experience. At that point it’s perfectly reasonable to expect someone to at least TRY to do the leg work of problem solving before coming to you. That’s not being an all-star, that’s being competent at your job.
Yeah, if OP’s having to hold Velma’s hand through every step of a process or interrupt their own work to research stuff Velma could just as easily research, then Velma’s not contributing to the team’s overall productivity even if it’s in a less splashy way than Betty or Sally; she’s detracting from it.
Some people just prefer direct assignments and clear guidelines—they’re not necessarily self-starters or good at problem-solving. (And that’s not a bad thing! Many roles benefit from employees who prefer defined tasks.) But problems arise when these folks are in positions that require taking initiative and solving problems without hand holding.
The manager can keep trying to set clear expectations and ask probing questions like, “Where have you already looked for this answer?” to encourage a more proactive approach, but I’m pessimistic it’s worth the continued effort. Round peg, square hole.
I work at a company where the expectations are high for independent work, and therefore the pay is high (recent college grad is $65K). I have no problem holding people to higher expectations even if their work is ok. This is not a charity. We have other labs in town with lower expectations, and a lot less independence required, therefore there is lower pay. If they want to bum around and take their time and not work within the workflows of my team, then they can move on. I have put 2 different people on PIP for this. One got fired and the other has stepped it up.
I agree that it’s also fair to say that pay also plays a part in this. If people get paid a huge amount, then you can expect superstars.
” the pay is high (recent college grad is $65K)”
The average, nationwide, for a new college grad first year salary in 2021 was $56K.
We are in the Midwest (lower COL than the coasts), and we also have stock and guaranteed bonus. So I should have said about $75K. We also have free catered lunch every day, onsite gym, paid paternal leave (not required in my state) etc. So average $57K with no perks is what is here otherwise. 30% higher is reasonable to expect more.
The average salary (overall) in the Midwest is about $70K.
$65K for a new college grad is about $10K above average for the midwest – it would be about 60th percentile in the Midwest. I’d say above average, but not “high”.
It’s about what I started at with a Bacehlor’s degree… in 1998.
We should be looking at median salaries, not average.
You shouldn’t be looking at median or average college graduate salaries. Different majors make different amounts, so good pay for someone with a sociology degree may be bad pay for someone that an accounting degree. You need to compare like with like.
Area Woman also just mentions that “recent college grads” make $65k without mentioning whether they are graduating with a bachelors, masters or PhD. She mentions lab however, which seems to indicate something more than a bachelor.
But really, none of that really matters if you want to determine how much hand holding should be necessary for the average employee. That probably depends on the difficulty of the job. Which leads to the paradox of extremely high paid worker bees that are able to do relatively little without managerial help simply because of the difficulty of their position and of finding anyone who can do any part of it even with help.
For sure.
$65K for an engineer new college graduate with a Bachelor’s… would be really low in the Midwest.
…but $65K for someone with a Master’s of Social Work right out of college – would actually be pretty good.
I am talking about just a bachelors degree right out of college. This is way higher than jobs in the area, comparing to medians or whatever for everyone is not relevant. A recent PhD would be at $105K. Thanks for pointing out a lot of irrelevant stuff, I shouldn’t have put a number in without all the context but you assumed the worst about it and the data I have. Please calm down!
The median is a kind of average — usually the one referred to when someone is talking about average salaries.
Is #1 writing from the same office from the letter that had all the men WFH because the men’s room was temporarily out of order?
There’s so much vitriol re letter 1, from assuming he gets a thrill out of being heard, to wanting to call the police, to guys complaining about a double standard. Yeesh.
I’m a guy. I did this when I was younger. I was in a bad place with my mental health, in therapy, and struggling. Doing this gave me a few minutes a day of not being an anxious wreck.
Inappropriate? Absolutely. Ok to notify HR? Yes. Getting a thrill from the possibility of being heard? No way. I’d have been mortified. I’m mortified just thinking about it.
Fortunately, LW can deal with this without passing judgement. Go to HR and say you’ve heard this guy making weird vocal noises, that this is what you think it is, etc. A good HR person will tell the guy about the noises, ask if there’s a medical issue, but not name it as masturbating.
yeah, I have done that too, as a woman. I was extremely careful about not doing that when anyone else was in the bathroom. There were times it was necessary for a moment of calmness like you say, but also for physical comfort like with really bad menstrual cramps or pregnancy hormones going completely out of whack. Not proud of it, but also I really cared about making sure the restroom was empty. this guy needs to be smarter about not bothering others.
As somebody with serious mental health issues, I feel confident saying you were both completely out of line and had no excuse. Sorry if that’s an unpopular opinion but Jesus Christ.
There are multiple different types of mental health problems and your issues may not be the same as these posters.
I don’t have mental health problems but have definitely had points in my menstrual cycle where hormones have been totally out of whack and I understand where “alas” is coming from. Perhaps you haven’t experienced that yourself, but it doesn’t mean it’s not a thing.
Of course, you do need to make absolutely sure that no one can hear, but that should be a given!
GO SOMEWHERE NOT PUBLIC
For real. That is not an appropriate accommodation for menstrual pain at work.
Seriously what is this thread.
NO it is not okay to do this in a public bathroom FULL STOP. Mental health problems and hormones (??!) are not excuses. Eating ice cream soup makes me feel better when I’m on my period, but I don’t carry a bowl with me on the subway because that’s WEIRD AND INAPPROPRIATE AND CAN WAIT TIL I GET HOME.
Nobody said it’s ok. You’re conflating “this is wrong, here’s the context (but it’s not an excuse)” with “this is ok.”
One might have empathy for someone in a mental health crisis while still making 100% clear that their behavior is egregious and has to stop. Notice I say “might” not “must .”
Not the only . . . wrote, “Of course, you do need to make absolutely sure that no one can hear, but that should be a given!”
Which really sounds like they think it’s okay to do in a public/work washroom.
Some of these comments are seriously unhinged. Masturbating at work is not normal! can’t people literally wait for a few hours and do it at home? Just yuck…
Thank you. I’ll be WFH forever if there’s a risk of that in the office. At least my at home colleagues are all neutered.
Yeah, we’re really running into a conflict between “anyone hearing you masturbate at work is going to be incredibly uncomfortable, and there’s a non-zero chance he gets off on being heard since it’s happened a bunch of times” and seeing masturbating at work as inherently an assault on others even if you stop the second you hear a door open.
I have never masturbated at work, to be clear, and I very much doubt it’s “normal” in the sense of super common. I just don’t think masturbation you don’t know about happening at all is inherently nefarious.
I believe that there are people who masturbate public toilets and aren’t deliberately trying to be heard or getting a thrill out of making other people uncomfortable. But I also think people thinking you’re getting a thrill out of it is a very normal and reasonable consequence of masturbating in public toilets.
It’s ok to keep an open mind on whether he’s deliberately trying to be overheard or not. But equally, I don’t think anyone has to go to extreme lengths to give Masturbating Guy the benefit of the doubt or protect him from worse consequences.
> I believe that there are people who masturbate public toilets and aren’t deliberately trying to be heard or getting a thrill out of making other people uncomfortable.
Glad you believe I’m not lying.
> But I also think people thinking you’re getting a thrill out of it is a very normal and reasonable consequence of masturbating in public toilets.
I don’t disagree, just pointing out that it is not a safe assumption if you’re in HR and need to be cautious about how you communicate.
The thing is, how were your coworkers supposed to know about the benignity of your workplace masturbation?
they weren’t, because they weren’t supposed to know about it at all. the issue here needs to be reported to HR because whatever is going on is affecting other bathroom users.
This is why I pointed out that it was inappropriate. That doesn’t mean “abandon all empathy.” You can flag it for HR without being so judgemental.
YOU ARE WHACKING OFF AT WORK. I CAN BE AS JUDGMENTAL AS I WANT.
Dude, if someone does become aware and finds it uncomfortable/distressing, this isn’t just coughing-without-covering-your-mouth gross. It’s sexual harassment gross. I know you said it was inappropriate, but I’m not sure you get quite how bad a judgement call this is, or how significantly it could impact colleagues. A lot of us have history of assault or of otherwise getting creeped on, and inappropriate sexual behaviour in a shared space does not get much benefit of the doubt, sorry. It’s not OK.
Anxiety sucks, but…damn, have a drink of water and a short walk in the fresh air like the rest of us.
It is flat out sexual harassment to expose a non-consenting person ESPECIALLY at work to your sexual activity. Gross. If you need to rub one off at work, you need to find better strategies.
I’ve oftentimes been called some pretty nasty names for my lack of sympathy towards men, but I’m pretty sure I’m speaking highly of them when I say that they can absolutely go 8 working hours without masturbating, regardless of whether or not they’ve become used to doing so at other times.
LW2, one other thing to check is that Velma does, in fact, have access to all the tools and documentation she needs to problem-solve as well as the rest of the team. That may seem like a given, but my own small team of folks with disparate duties has recently gone through something similar, and it turned out that permission granting had historically been very piecemeal. All our documentation was in the same place, but only Anya had access to the pages about demons, only Giles had access to the pages about to the pages about vampires, only Xander had any access to the ticketing system… So when Dawn was struggling, it looked like Dawn was just terrible at problem solving and initiative, but in reality everything Dawn needed to solve more than the most basic of problems was behind an access gate we didn’t even realize existed.
This is a very good point. And I also want to add that when Velma comes to you and says she’s unable to solve a problem, name this as one of the things you want her to improve on – be very specific that *this* is what you’ve been talking about WRT her being more independent. Instead of going to look something up for her yourself, sit with her and *show* her how you would look it up, then have her look up something while you’re sitting with her so you know she understands how to do it.
If this doesn’t work, then you probably, as AAM says, need to consider how her role will look going forward.
This is a great point. In addition to weird file sharing permissions, I’ve seen people get added to Teams spaces with important stuff they need more than a year after they’ve started a job and I have to wonder about the onboarding in those departments.
Ahh yes, the joys of information management. Technically all the info is there, but finding it can be…interesting.
To whit – our own internal IT resources are spread across several systems, databases, sharepoint, file folders. Not to mention the wonderful world of search engines.
Asking the person what steps they have done to try and actually FIND the information is a good way to sort this out. If they say they only got one result off a file folder search it could well be a permissions issue.
(I am biased though. We support over 2,500 different applications here.)
I agree. It was the same way at my previous company. IT gave only the bare minimum of permissions, which is fine and sometimes necessary, but they didn’t always consult with the team’s manager to determine if those permissions were truly enough to get the job done. We’d then have to keep adding permissions one or two at time because it wasn’t always obvious someone needed more than just one or two.
At my current company, permissions aren’t necessarily piecemeal. It’s more that permissions are very grudgingly given. We often have to make an airtight business case as to why someone needs view-only permission for an application. It’s incredibly frustrating and often leads to people missing steps because they need to hand off the task to someone else mid-task, or not learning an entire process because IT has deemed a permission unnecessary.
Yeah, they do that at my company too. People are so stingy with permissions, and arbitrarily pull them after a short period of time that it seems that half of my job is asking for permissions to do my job. IMO, this comes from having a security team that goes “Well, if a little restriction is good, then having everything locked down like you were in an SCIF is best!” It’s not, and a lot of time getting the same approvals over and over again is ridiculous.
Good suggestion. Velma may, indeed, not be cut out for a job that requires independent work, but LW2 first needs to make sure there are no structural barriers in place. If LW2 expects her to consult the Jabberwocky Online Manual as part of her job, they need to make sure she knows it exists and has access to it.
Yes, and also sometimes people don’t know that they do actually have access to information because they don’t know where it is.
Yes, these documents are in the controlled document system, but *those* documents are in this server in that set of files, and then you sometimes can get ideas about this or that based on the old presentations which are in a completely different server.
Often people aren’t aware of all the different servers. And some times you get folks who are just unable or unwilling to try the file directory and will only work with Teams – but that’s a different issue.
All three employees have been with the company for about the same amount of time, so I expect them to have similar levels of knowledge.
This has such little bearing on someone’s abilities, it may help if you remove this idea from the equation. It’s about age/tenure in the workforce, work ethic, exposure to other areas, whether they have/had a mentor, etc. Simply working at a place for the same amount of time doesn’t mean they’re all on the same level.
It’s concerns about another employee’s behavior. (Which there is a slight but nonzero chance is a medical issue, rather than what it sounds like.)
This came up previously when an OP had a coworker with (apparently) some form of anxiety, who believed that the right solution was for OP to leave their shared office for an hour or so each day when coworker felt stressed. OP had to be in that office to access their work, and the boss had noticed that OP’s work wasn’t getting done. Once your hypothetical medical thing affects your coworkers, who are guessing at the cause of the disruption, it stops being a thing you can expect no one will comment on at work. (Also, it’s reasonable to focus on the effect on everyone, and so approach this as though it might well be what it sounds like, even if you keep in mind some edge cases like “But what if it’s actually a medical thing?”)
LW5: there are some clinical trials that are completely voluntary…I get ads for one about sleep where they want you to go to the clinical site (not in my state) and then follow their daylight-deprivation protocol for 10 days and they presumably monitor blood work and circadian rhythms etc… But it’s specifically targeted towards people who do *not* have sleep disorders. Thus, I would not expect to be able to use FMLA to participate in it since it would be of no medical benefit to the participant. Charitably, this might be a point that LW5’s HR didn’t understand.
1. Speak to HR. Tell them that there appears to be someone loudly engaging in wankage in the bogs on multiple occassions.
Leave it with them. In my experience they’ll probably call in IT to start having a VERY close look at the wifi/internet/email logs of the office (if you use the company wifi we CAN see you) and probably issue some kind of statement that however it is has to stop or face disciplinary action.
(Sadly this ain’t that rare an occurance here in the railway)
Apparently it’s not rare anywhere. When OldExJob’s IT person told me he could see what employees were looking at, he said there was a lot of porn. He didn’t tell me who was looking at it, for which I’m profoundly grateful, because I did not want to know. >_<
A few years ago our IT guy was fired for exactly what the guy from #1 was doing. And he was using his work-issued computer to watch videos for that purpose. The IT guy. Some people just don’t have common sense.
It happens in IT rather more than you’d think. Give someone admin level access to the systems and some feel like they are untraceable and above the rules. I’ve had to fire a few for stuff like that.
I once started a new IT job where I found the previous guy’s porn stash. Not only did this reveal poor judgement, it also made me think less of his skills. A smart sysadmin would have encrypted it.
Or kept it off of company systems. They make 512 Gb USB keys, ffs.
I have a similar situation to LW4, but I’m 20 years in.
Most of my time was at a single employer where I had the same manager for over a decade.
And obviously I can’t use my current manager.
Or the one from the job I was let go from for being a poor skill-fit.
I had a smattering of short, short term managers who I don’t have contact info for anyway.
I usually use people I’ve done freelance work for to fill in the gaps.
But literally no one has ever contacted my references in 20 years and I have no idea how bad this would be if anyone ever actually called them.
LW#1: I couldn’t find any information to say whether this was a men’s washroom or a mixed washroom, because the first is wrong and the second is wrong with a power/sexist dynamic attached to it.
From the first sentence of the post:
“There is a guy in my office who will go into one of the stalls in the men’s bathroom for 20-30 minutes at a time.” (emphasis mine)
There can definitely still be a power dynamic to it in the men’s washroom.
LW2: one thing you should confirm if you haven’t already. Make sure you’re having a “Velma isn’t doing the independent work” situation and not a “Velma hasn’t memorized that the information on teapot packaging is in procedure N.457.Q.14b “Kettle spout extruder settings” under Section 3.b.1 “extruder operator qualifications” or, as it is colloquially known, the “don’t let Kevin package teapots” section. Kevin hasn’t worked here in a decade, but everyone remembers the Kevin incident.
In short, make sure you’re actually having a Velma won’t find information issue and not a Velma can’t find information issue or an information is extremely difficult and obtuse to find issue. This can be the case even if others jive well with how information is organized.
Oh, you’ve seen my file system then, eh?
It’s not that bad, but there have absolutely been things I was looking for that were very old where the only way I was able to find them was “wait, didn’t someone once say that one guy worked on that? Where’s his folder, oh, here, that project had a completely different name for three years, sure, why not.”
Or having a random coworker say “hey, I got access to this folder that says it’s my project, but I read some of the files and I think it’s actually the old version of your project?”
For OP#1, I would definitely take this to HR. Since it is happening repeatedly it seems that it would strongly fall under the legal standards for Hostile Work Environment (note — I am not a lawyer). Being exposed to listening to sexual activity in the workplace repeatedly should meet the criteria. I would make sure to use this term with HR to ensure they take it seriously and not try to use the excuse of bathroom privacy.
LW#1: ” “Not hearing someone masturbating” is pretty much a bare minimum expectation you should be able to have at work,” might qualify as AAM quote of the year.
LW#5: Grab the documentation where FMLA was denied, along with a copy of the DOL letter and visit HR. “Since there clearly was a mistake made here, how can we rectify it internally? I would like my PTO recredited to me.” If HR was smart (which, given its history here, is questionable,) they would make that happen ASAP.
Getting approval for FMLA doesn’t necessarily affect the PTO time. FMLA is job protection not income replacement, and companies can require that employees use PTO during FMLA leaves. If there was a sick leave or disability program that LW #5 could have qualified for if FMLA was designated, that’s a different matter.
#2. I work with a Velma. People will email My Velma about issues relating to the website he manages, and MV will then kick them over to me… for reasons? Yes, I do some work in the same CMS and can look at and often diagnose the problem, sometimes even fix it, but MV’s indifference to his own website grinds my gears. Sometimes I’ll see a problem on his site — an unclosed Bold tag, an article that’s missing (or has badly sized) artwork — and I should let him know, but more often than not I’ll just close out the tab and pretend I didn’t see it. He’s higher on the org chart, sure, I don’t understand why he passes his website problems to me.
#1 is just disgusting and should be reported. Only caveat is that since the stall door was closed, LW can’t be sure that he was masturbating – he could have been in there with another person.
So when you report this, maybe don’t specifically say he was doing that – you don’t want him to get off (no pun intended) on a technicality
OP2:
Remember also that even if it’s true that you could find the answer faster than Velma, something that Velma seems to be missing is that your own time and work are also valuable – probably more so than hers – and when she approaches you to “find it faster” now she’s spending two peoples’ time on the problem.
I’ve been through this before and something that this sort of personality often forgets or doesn’t realize is that you’re not just sitting around waiting for their questions, you do have your own work to do, and sometimes it can help to make that clear to them that your only role is not as reference material.
I find asking simple questions each and every time she brings you an issue can help. What do you think? What have you tried? What are your options? How do you think we should handle this? Etc. She will quickly learn that she needs to you with a perspective and having tried various options before she asks for your guidance.
Yes, when I’ve trained in a new job, there’s generally an early period of hand-holding, then a period where if you ask questions, the manager will respond with, “did you check the SOPs/manual/notes/whatever?” I’ve never seen what happens if someone gets stuck in that stage lol, because most people pick up the hint, go to the resources first, then check in with someone if they still can’t find an answer.
The other advantage of asking this sort of thing is as other commenters have suggested, it might well be that Velma doesn’t actually have access to all the resources she should, or know about them. So if you ask, “Did you check XYZ Manual for this?” and she goes “Wait, what manual?” that could tell LW something important.
(That said, it sounds like this is a job where not everything is neatly laid out in SOPs and it’s expected you’ll figure things out on your own. In that event, working through whatever type of reasoning Velma is expected to do might lead to a similar revelation.)
Yes to this! I have a hard earned encyclopedic knowledge of our deep archives at work – hard earned because it took literal years of looking for stuff to sort-of figure out the systems. It’s also generally not important enough to move to a more accessible location.
I had a coworker, Betty, who called me “Google” because it was just faster to ask me than to try to look it up herself. That was OK for the obscure stuff, where even telling her where to find it would take 20 minutes.
But it did start to get annoying when she would ask me things she could *actually* Google. For that kind of stuff I started saying “I don’t know” and she eventually stopped because it wasn’t funny anymore.
Re:LW1 – He really shouldn’t be doing that at work, period, but if you’re going to do that at least use a single-occupant bathroom. Don’t make your coworkers listen to that. Be considerate of other people.
LW4: Even as a mid-career professional, I recently had a situation where a prospective employer asked for 4 references, and I only had 3 past managers ready to go. It would’ve taken a few extra days to get in touch with another past manager, ask them to be a reference, and confirm their contact info. I asked a colleague to be a peer reference instead, and that worked just fine. And that’s with me being several years into my career!
It’s common knowledge that this is harder for early-career people, who might not have even one manager from a full-time job that isn’t their current role. As long as your daughter uses at least references that are equipped to evaluate her performance (e.g. her supervisor from a part-time job, a professor she TA’d for, etc), I can’t imagine she’d be judged harshly for using a peer for the third reference.
LW #2
I feel like I could have wrote this letter, so I understand how you feel.
I’m curious: Why doesn’t Velma ask Betty or Sally for help? Do all three people have different roles and responsibilities, so their work doesn’t overlap? If there is some overlap, I wonder if you could speak to Betty or Sally about helping Velma? The caveat with that is 1) Velma might not ask them for help because she feels more comfortable asking you, and 2) Velma might still not out grow her habit of not doing her own problem solving (and you’ll start getting complaints from Betty or Sally).
Eh, as someone who was a Betty/Sally working with a Velma, I’m afraid this approach would just make Velma dependent on someone else who doesn’t have the authority to tell her she needs to do this herself.
The Velmas I’ve known were asking all three, but acting like they weren’t, and equally driving everyone up a wall because they were duplicating the effort to help them across several people, and if they got a difference answer from two, would arbitrarily pick one, and continue on as if none of it were happening.
LW2, is Julie afraid of the consequences if she makes the wrong decision? Is there a way to convey to her that she won’t be “in trouble” if that happens?
I have known a few people that are so fearful of the blowback for making a mistake. That’s the only reason I am asking.
#3 – it’s up to you. But if you work in a “small world” industry, you might not want to leave a mess behind for your fellow workers. That can come back to haunt you. On the other hand, you can reduce your “extra time” by setting expectations with your colleagues and your management.
#4 – references? The answer to that is NETWORKING. Join professional groups, if you can, even if it costs YOU a little money. Participate, know your peers in your general geographical area. PARTICIPATE in conferences. It pays.
I am not sure how NETWORKING helps you have more references.
If you’re applying for a job, the person checking references wants to know what you’re like at work — preferably from a direct manager, but, as Alison says, from a coworker if that’s not possible — not what you’re like at conferences and cocktail receptions.
Of course joining an appropriate professional group in your area, if such a thing exists for your career and your area, is good advice in general. But I don’t see how it addresses this specific question.
#1 I do believe inviting several coworkers to pack restroom whilst the noisy event is occurring offering commentary for the duration may help. It would be entertaining at the least.
This comment section is really opening my eyes to the amount of people who openly admit to masturbating at work (honestly shocked that it’s more than 2, and I swear I’m not a prude). Maybe it’s because I’ve not encountered anything that would inspire me to do that during my years of workdays? Anyway, for the people posing the solution of hanging a “no masturbation” sign, it would probably raise more questions than solve anything. Hilariously, but still.
Surveys routinely come in around 35-40% of all workers have done it…
Staggering stats! Lol!
A real suprise to me too. imo work is not the place for any sexual activity, especially if you can’t be silent and also take no longer than a typical poop.
I will admit to masturbating at work. I was 21ish, it was a rarely used restroom in a workplace with few people of my gender, and I was both deeply in lust and bored. I don’t remember doing it since then, but I’m also not 100% sure I haven’t. My most recent sexual partner also admitted to doing it at work, in the single occupancy restroom on his floor. I think both of us were seeking maximum privacy given the circumstances and would have been mortified/grossed out had any of our coworkers heard us, but yeah, it happens.
I’m making my way through “of boys and men” which has some areas I don’t love but I can’t help but think about the author’s summation of different reactions of men and women to someone accidentally getting caught masturbating on a zoom call during the pandemic – women: “what was he thinking, masurbating during work?!” men: “what was he thinking, not being careful about checking for privacy first?” – obviously that’s a very broad generalization but I’m willing to agree that manifestly the big problem is /other people knowing about it/ (aka impact on work and other people) given bathrooms are otherwise a place where a lot of bodily waste goes there’s no particular hygiene issue that I can come up with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKH9ECC_Qa4
Here’s a sketch from a BBC comedy about LW1’s predicament
I am really feeling #2 but from Velma’s side (no, I am not the Velma in this story lol). Part of my issue is that I don’t always know where to turn to for solving my own problems. I haven’t read the whole thread yet, so I don’t know what Velma’s job entails, but be absolutely certain that she has access to appropriate resources for independent problem-solving.
#2: Have you considered asking Velma what is prompting her to ask for help? She could be scared of doing the wrong thing, or unaware of how she should be presenting the request (i.e. asking for help vs saying I tried what I knew what should I do next). Personally I’ve been scared of skipping down the prime rose path and getting in trouble for wasting resources.
LW1, why not call him out in front of everyone in the office? If he’s OK subjecting everyone else to what is obviously sexual behavior in public, then why are you giving him the respect of not asking in front of coworkers? If he has a problem with someone asking him “why do I hear maturation sounds whenever you’re in a stall next to me in the bathroom”, then I suppose he could just Not do that at work.
This might be a good move for reality TV but I think it’s a really bad idea to do in most actual work settings
what’s funny is my HR made me take FMLA for plastic surgery – i didn’t want to take it, i just wanted to use my vacation time, and they said i had to because it was medical. I didn’t know enough to question, but i was trying to have a baby that year too and was worried about taking up FMLA. I wish i had pushed back!
1. My coworker masturbates in the men’s bathroom
It is in private?
No, it isn’t, it’s in a shared space in the office.
And I certainly think if there isn’t a Code of Conduct that states DON’T WATCH PORN AT WORK OR ON WORK TIME, then it’s only because nobody thought it was necessary.
Report it to HR.
“Her responses often included that she wasn’t sure and knew I could find the answer faster, or that she didn’t have all the necessary information,”
Stop. Answering. The. Questions. Because it works for her, so she won’t change her approach dude
So! When she comes to you with questions you need to start saying “Alrighty then, so walk me through what you’ve found.” And if she hasn’t *tried* then send her away with the instruction to go look and come back if she still needs help, but with the additional context and information which will help you problem solve it.
Frame it as helping her stay on track with these performance goals, build her confidence, build her research skills, build her knowledge base. Don’t frame it as “Go away and don’t bother me with these questions” because she’s likely to fail