my employee regularly forgets important details and entire conversations

by Alison Green on February 11, 2025

A reader writes:

About four months ago I hired a new employee, Arnold. He interviewed very well, and the other interviewers on the panel agreed he was the best candidate. However now I am starting to see some serious gaps in ability. The biggest issue is that Arnold totally forgets entire conversations we’ve had. Some examples:

• I told him in June that he needed to plan the agenda for the team meeting in late July. A few weeks into July, I asked how the agenda was coming, and he said that was the first time he heard about it. I pointed him to our shared notes document from our 1:1 conversation in June where we discussed it.

• I assigned him a report to analyze sales trends over the course of the year. We spent 30 minutes talking about how the company decided to pivot from teapot sales to toaster sales, and this report should provide an update on the outcomes of that strategic sales shift. He turned in his report, which concluded that teapot sales declined and we should investigate why that happened. When I told him we talked about why that happened (a strategic decision by leadership), he said he doesn’t recall hearing that context.

• I assigned Arnold a project to implement a new project management technology that my peer (Dane) had experience working with. I connected Arnold with Dane for him to learn best practices. A few weeks later, I hear from Dane that he is frustrated with Arnold. He says Arnold doesn’t follow his instructions, yet repeatedly asks the same questions, even when Dane has already provided the answer. I have seen screenshots of Slack messages of the same question answered multiple times by Dane in writing.

Am I being gaslit by Arnold, or do you think something else is going on? I’ve even enlisted my manager to set up 1:1s to reinforce important topics with Arnold in case there’s something about my communication style that is not effective. But my manager has had the same experience with him forgetting key topics of conversation. I have other direct reports who are amazing and seem to be thriving, so I’m baffled and frustrated by how much time I am needing to invest in Arnold for mediocre results.

I suspect we are on our way to a performance improvement plan for Arnold, but what exactly can he improve? His memory? How do I coach this kind of behavior?

I doubt he’s gaslighting you and Dane — at least not in the original sense of the word, which means intentionally trying to make you think you’re losing your mind. (It comes from the 1944 movie Gaslight, in which a man tries to make his wife think her grip on reality is slipping away.) I suppose it’s possible that that Arnold is deliberately not bothering to retain anything in the hopes of sowing chaos, but it’s far, far, far more likely that he (a) has a terrible memory, (b) isn’t conscientious enough to take the normal steps people take to retain things, like paying attention in conversations and writing things down, and/or (c) is trying to cover up mistakes by pretending he doesn’t have any memory of previous instructions.

Fortunately, no matter which of these options it is (or even if it’s some other explanation), the solution is the same: Sit down with Arnold, explain there is a pattern of him not retaining information and instructions, and say that he needs to figure out better systems for capturing info so it doesn’t keep happening. Explain that the issue is serious and it’s essential to get it fixed immediately.

Ultimately Arnold needs to figure out what system will work for him, but you should feel free to suggest specific systems that you think would work in his context. The most obvious one is, of course, taking notes, but you might also suggest that he write up summaries of his takeaways after each discussion and email them to you and that he refer back to them every time he works on that project. You also might supplement that on your end by asking him to repeat back his takeaways at the end of each discussion with you. (That can be a pretty useful strategy even for someone who isn’t having trouble remembering details, because often it will bring to the surface some miscommunication that you didn’t realize had happened.)

From there, treat “retaining and applying information” the same way you would any other key performance requirement — meaning that if it keeps happening, you should continue to flag the pattern and move fairly quickly to “since this is crucial to being able to do the job, let’s figure out if we can help you get where you need to be or not” (which in most workplaces will mean a formal improvement plan, but can also just be a couple of serious conversations as long as you’re extremely clear about the potential consequences if the problem continues and the timeline he has for fixing it). In other words, treat it the same way you would if he kept missing deadlines or turning in work with serious mistakes or anything else that goes to the heart of “not doing the job we need done.”

Also, since someone is certain to mention it in the comments: it’s entirely possible that Arnold’s memory is a medical issue. We have no way of knowing whether that’s the case, but you’d proceed the same way regardless (flag the pattern, explain it’s a problem, and ask him to address it). Certainly if he mentions some sort of medical context (like “I’m on a new medication that is affecting my memory’) you’d give him more grace while he actively works on solutions with his doctor … but at the end of the day, no matter what the explanation is, he does need to implement systems to track important details for his job, and you can and should hold him to that regardless of what’s at the root of it.

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{ 178 comments }

{ 178 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. duinath*

    Yeah… I don’t remember anything. I think that’s less medical and more personality based on my end, but in the end I think the result is the same.

    I don’t retain information. People know this about me.

    And yet, I do the things I said I would. I show up when I’m supposed to. Nobody has ever needed to go out of their way to remind me of things I need to take action on, because I write that stuff down immediately. I use my phone calendar and check it daily.

    I know myself, and plan accordingly. I keep records, I take screenshots, I set alarms.

    These are things that will work for anyone who is still in a place where they are able to hold a job, imo. If not, there are other systems one can use, I’m sure.

    Consistently going back to people who are asking why you didn’t do X and saying “you never told me about that” is not a system I would recommend.

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    1. ferrina*

      I know myself, and plan accordingly. I keep records, I take screenshots, I set alarms.

      Exactly this.
      Adults figure out how to run their own lives. Arnold needs to figure out what he needs to do to solve this issue. It’s different for everyone. It can even be different strategies at different times for a single person! I’m ADHD, and I have a litany of strategies I used based on what flavor of ADHD I have that day.

      Arnold can decided if he wants to see a medical professional to try to figure out the root cause (there’s a lot of things that can impact memory), or just implement strategies. A simple google search will show you a lot of suggestions. But this is his to solve.

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      1. Sales Geek*

        This is familiar territory for me. I was diagnosed with ADHD in the mid 1990’s. I was terrible at remembering things and staying on track.

        Not as bad as Arnold but still made professional life difficult.

        The only thing that helped me was the introduction of electronic calendars on my smartphone. This gave me the structure for activities, meetings etc. My manager once asked me why my calendar had so many entries. I didn’t mention anything about ADHD although I should have.

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    2. iglwif*

      Exactly.

      I struggle to remember certain kinds of things, and I know this about myself. And therefore, I use a variety of (kludgy, jury-rigged) systems to keep the balls in the air — post-it notes that I am forced to look at and notice; a shared family iPhone calendar and my work Teams calendar, plus a paper planner in which I bring those 2 calendars together; phone alarms; to-do lists; discussing plans with people so someone else also knows what I know.

      If my systems were failing such that I were dropping balls to the extent Arnold is, I would be mortified and would want to take steps to change things forthwith.

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    3. Moira's Rose's Garden*

      Alla this.
      I do have a medical reason why sometimes my memory sucks. I have a whole range of compensatory stuff I do. None of them is “tell my colleagues and supervisors ‘I forgot’ on the regular”, because that’s both unprofessional and unacceptable for a person in my role.

      I will say that admitting to *myself* that I was having issues and needed to work on external strategies and change how I approached tasks and planning was probably one of the bigger barriers. But I didn’t get over that hurdle until something fairly serious happened (at home). Until I was able to speak honestly about my symptoms with my Dr. and my partner, I didn’t have enough info on hand to understand how much I could be doing differently to improve. While it was going on initially, my anxiety & guilt over dropping (metaphorical) balls was actually making the symptoms worse!

      LW – you might be doing Arnold a bigger favor than you know by pointing out the patterns and explaining clearly what good performance looks like. If you have work resources to offer, those could be very helpful too, but Arnold does have to figure out on his own exactly how to improve his performance.

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      1. Smithy*

        100% this.

        There are so many potential medical connections to memory loss, that there’s likely not even an appropriate nudge the supervisor could give because he’s a new employee. It’s not a case someone working there for 5 years suddenly doing this. But regardless, calling out the behavior seriously is the way to flag it and hopefully get him aligned with whatever other realities might be contributing to this.

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    4. NerdyPrettyThings*

      Yes to all this. My husband has had similar memory problems since having Covid, and he’s found effective ways to manage it. Hopefully, like my husband at first, Arnold just isn’t realizing what’s happened to his previously-memory-containing brain, and once he is told this is a problem, he’ll fix it.

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    5. WillowSunstar*

      Also saying as someone who has been going through perimenopause, this does sometimes happen to people in their lives, but people do have to do work arounds. I take supplements, write notes down, use my Outlook reminders for every little thing, etc. You have to learn how to deal with it.

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    6. Turquoisecow*

      I’m not sure if it’s entirely due to a specific medical issue or if it’s just getting older but I have found I have more of an issue remembering things now than I did ten or twenty years ago. I come out of a meeting with my boss and completely forget the specific parameters of the report they asked me to compile. (Thankfully I don’t forget that I was asked to compile the report!)

      My solution to this is to take notes during meetings of what the parameters are – and why, so that I don’t have Arnold’s issue sales report issue above and if I neglect something, I can message my boss (or someone else who was in the meeting, if applicable), and ask for clarification. Sometimes someone else will take notes in a larger meetings and I can review that. I also try to get started on assignments as soon as possible after being given them so I have less chance to forget what’s happening.

      But recognizing that you’re having this issue is a big step towards mitigating it. OP definitely needs to call it out with Arnold and mention that it’s been an issue multiple times, with specifics, because I’m guessing that he’s not aware of how serious it is if it’s not been discussed with him before and he hasn’t changed his process between incidents (if I forgot something once, I’d immediately think “how can I fix this issue so it doesn’t happen again? I know! I’ll write it down!”; if he’s not doing that, he’s probably not aware it’s as bad as it is). At that point, assuming he accepts that it’s an issue, they can talk about how to handle it, whether that means he takes more notes or talks to his doctor, or uses a different organizational system or whatever.

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    7. AnotherOne*

      I’m the same. As a result, I’m a copious note taker when I’m learning a new skill at work because I’ll likely need to be able to refer to something later. Some things I’ll remember no problem, other things my brain is total crickets.

      So I plan for when I won’t be able to remember.

      I admit that it can make it harder for me to forgive coworkers who don’t do the same and ask me the same question 15 times.

      Reply ↓
  2. Suzie and Elaine Problem*

    At least Arnold has the luxury of people just thinking he’s forgetful and not blaming an entire gender/social role/biological function (I was thinking of the recent post with someone mentioning “mom brain.”)

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    1. Medium Sized Manager*

      I’m the only non-mother in our leadership team of 4 women, and it is deeply grating to hear “mom-brain” or “of course I’m good at multi-tasking – I’m a mom!” constantly. I try to have grace but also, the one who says it most often has teenagers, so it’s not like it’s new!

      The exception I will make is for the veterinarian I worked with years ago who had horrible memory problems when she was pregnant. She would walk out of the room and completely forget who she saw/why they were there/what she recommended, so we had to adjust to always have another person in the room for memory’s sake. But, she also treated it like the medical condition it is and not “lol mom brain”

      Reply ↓
      1. Frieda*

        I read this as “vegetarian” and was looking for the animal protein solution!

        Elder eyes, rather than mom brain, in my case.

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      1. Sashaa*

        Mom-brain (or baby-brain as it is known in the UK) is the completely understandable phenomenon of cognitive impairment due to severe sleep deprivation in the newborn stages.

        Beyond that, while lots of Moms of older children do have trouble keeping on top of lots of competing demands from home and work and may drop balls from time to time, that isn’t a medical condition and unfortunately isn’t going to get much accommodation in most workplaces.

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        1. Redaktorin*

          You’d think, but my mom brain started during pregnancy and was so severe I stopped being able to read anything (I’d forget what was in a paragraph by the time I made it to the next one). I also accidentally walked out of stores with groceries I hadn’t paid for repeatedly.

          A lot of women deal with this, it’s almost certainly not a sleep issue, since it starts before there’s a baby to keep you from sleeping, and the fact that so many doctors can be relied upon to never investigate or even acknowledge it *as their patients are explaining their lived experience* is deeply unfair.

          /soapbox

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          1. JustCuz*

            Yeah, this is true. I once hit a car while pregnant with my side mirror. Cuz I spaced out. One time I got into a heated argument at a drive through trying to order a “chicken sandwich kids meal” when I meant “chicken nuggets kids meal”. I knew this place did not have chicken sandwich kids meal. I knew my older child did not WANT a chicken sandwich kids meal. But I kept saying it and was totally incredulous. And I mean it took me a solid 2 minutes to realize what I was saying. So yes, absolutely this is a thing. That said, you can’t continue to claim “mom brain” when your kid is five either.

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          2. MC*

            A lot of people vastly underestimate (or just don’t understand at all in the first place) how much hormones affect things. They control almost everything going on in our bodies, pregnancy comes with massive hormonal changes, and hormonal imbalances are heavily linked to forgetfulness and brain fog. There has in fact been some study on that and “mom brain” is a real thing.

            But the only side effect of pregnancy most people are aware of are morning sickness (which is not at all accurately named) and waddling as the baby grows (but not knowing WHY that happens).

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            1. a name*

              It’s not just hormones or sleep deprivation. During pregnancy the blood flow needs of the uterus, fetus, & placenta are very high. Your body produces more blood to compensate but also, there is often a reduction in blood flow to the brain. Combine that with the hormones and sleep deprivation and it can bee a real shit show for some women.

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        2. Turquoisecow*

          My kid is 4 so I’m over the post partum stuff and she mostly sleeps through the night, but suddenly I have a hundred more things going on and my brain is pulled in a hundred more directions at once and that often does blend into the work day, so I get that busy life with kids can definitely interfere with remembering what report you’re supposed to do for work.

          But also, if you’re in the process of any major life thing. Maybe he’s moving or going through a divorce or his spouse or parents are battling a major illness or whatever. Not an excuse and he needs to find a way to work around it regardless.

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          1. JustCuz*

            Exactly, at that point, it just means you have a lot going on in life. its no longer a hormonal changes your body goes through or the lack of sleep caring for something that needs you every 2 to 3 hours.

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          2. eggo*

            I had 3 majorly traumatic events happen to me in an 8 month span (2 deaths and a “wish he was dead” level breakup) and I would literally forget to feed my dog and then get annoyed when she was bothering me. I locked myself out of my apartment more times in the year following those events than I had in my entire adult life. It was awful.

            A friend of mine suggested I apply to my dream job at her company and I had to say no because I could barely do the job I had! Learning a new one was just out of the question.

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      2. Lenora Rose*

        I think Mom brain got brought up in the menopause brain comments, because the workplace impact of the stereotype is the same.

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  3. Frances*

    He could have auditory processing disorder. He needs to write things down. He also needs things written down for him.

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    1. Tea Monk*

      I like it if people email me things because I don’t remember complex verbal instructions. I tell people this ( the email part, not why)

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      1. Hlao-roo*

        Yeah, the letter directly mentions:

        I pointed him to our shared notes document from our 1:1 conversation in June where we discussed it.

        I have seen screenshots of Slack messages of the same question answered multiple times by Dane in writing.

        So there are at least two instances of Arnold forgetting things that are written down.

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        1. Mephyle*

          It would be interesting to know how he reacted in the moment when the LW pointed him to the document. Actually, by “pointed to”, does LW mean they mentioned it, or that they opened it in front of him and had him look at it.

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        2. Landry*

          I know for some people, it also matters where things are written down. I have colleagues who prefer to keep everything in emails, some who like everything contained in our ordering tickets, some who keep everything in Teams messages, and some who have a combination. I’ve made it a point to ask which people prefer and adjust accordingly. That’s not to say everyone needs to tiptoe around Arnold, but as LW is trying to identify patterns, it may be worth it to see if there’s a certain type or form of communication that he’s struggling with.

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    5. I should really pick a name*

      That’s really something for Arnold to determine, not the LW.

      The LW needs to make it clear what performance is needed, and can suggest things that might help, but they’re not in a position to assume he has a specific disorder.

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    6. Anonym*

      If he does, it’s still on him to come up with solutions or possibly request accommodations. A friend of mine has this, and manages work and life stuff just fine. She has systems in place and knows what works for her.

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    7. epicdemiologist*

      It sounds from the letter like he already HAS things written down (“our shared notes document from our 1:1” but perhaps he either (1) doesn’t ever look back at things he’s written down, or (2) can’t retain them even after a refresher.

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    9. Frosty*

      I have ADHD and don’t have the best memory, but I also have a LOT of reminders in work/personal calendars, reminders apps, timers/alarms etc.

      I’d say I almost never forget an appointment or deadline – my phone and computer are binging and bonging enough that I can’t forget!

      On the other hand, I have a friend that claims a bit of “learned helplessness” (my words) where she forgets appointments but also says she doesn’t know how to set up apps etc. But I don’t think she’s looking it up either.

      Arnold will likely continue not to remember things until the consequences become such that he has to be more accountable.

      I AM curious about his reactions when it’s shown that he’s forgotten something

      Reply ↓
      1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

        My husband. It’s so annoying. “I forgot.” Yeah, I know you have ADHD and time blindness. So do I, yet I juggle the calendar for our family of 4. I have never missed ANY of my son’s appointments (and he has a medical condition where we have a lot of appointments), any of my own appointments whether work or medical, any family things…. Yes, I’ll miss a birthday of a friend or extended family member every once in a while, and I’ll be a week out from Christmas saying, “what am I forgetting? oh yeah – the TREE.”

        But I choose to manage it and I am paranoid about missing things so I make notes EVERYWHERE. I live by my phone calendar and the weekly dry-erase calendar on the side of the fridge.

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    10. Texan in Exile*

      “He also needs things written down for him.”

      Then – he needs to write them down for himself. He’s not a child.

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      1. Spreadsheet Queen*

        Some of us have trouble hearing and writing concurrently. Either there needs to be sufficient pauses (and repeating if I missed something), or yes, if the other person has these things written down, if they would share that with me, it helps.

        (I don’t know what happened, but my auditory processing has slowed significantly since, say, college, when I was able to take down 8-10 pages of hand-written notes in an hour. I miss SO MUCH spoken word now. Like, LIFE should come with closed captioning, lol. And, yes, I’ve had my hearing tested, and the “hears sounds” part is totally fine give or take some higher register sounds that are outside of normal business speech.)

        All that said, I am high performer, remember most of what I’ve seen in writing, write things down, use calendars, etc. This guy needs to be on a PIP. (Also it’s way A-holey to be all “You never said…”. Normal people would say “oh, I missed that.” And also do their darndest to fix why they are missing things.)

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        1. sb51*

          Same. My biggest problems come when people speed onwards and will not wait for me to take notes. I’ve sometimes had to resort to sending out completely terrible notes/action items that I know are incomplete and make the people who wouldn’t wait fill them in.

          (Repeat back won’t work for me; part of the problem is my terrible audio processing gets in the way of moving stuff from immediate/short-term memory to remembering it an hour later. I can repeat it in the moment but it’s not actually saved.)

          But I have coping mechanisms. I only have trouble when people insist on breaking them.

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        2. CommanderBanana*

          This: (Also it’s way A-holey to be all “You never said…”. Normal people would say “oh, I missed that.”)

          Interesting how it’s always “you never did X or Y.”

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        3. Andytron*

          Yeah, that jumped out at me too. I forget things and I am honestly not the best at managing my deficient memory. But my response is usually “oh, crap, I’m so sorry, I don’t remember that,” not denying it ever happened.

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    11. Statler von Waldorf*

      Commenting rule #5 here is don’t armchair-diagnose others, and this is pure armchair diagnosis territory. We can’t and shouldn’t diagnose medical conditions based on anecdotes on the internet. For all we know, Arnold could just really like smoking lots of weed. I’ve met more than a few long-term chronics whose memories are very similar to Arnolds.

      However, unless Arnold requests a medical accommodation for a specific medical condition, the reason his memory isn’t good doesn’t matter at all. All that matters is how the situation is handled, and I agree with the advice given to handle it like any other key performance requirement.

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    12. owen*

      i have audtory processing disorder. i put captioning on in (virtual) meetings and either request or send a summary of other aural information i receive to make sure i have everything.

      it doesn’t really matter what the cause of his problems are. it’s arnold’s place to figure out and request any help or accommodations he needs here. the op can make suggestions but it is on arnold to work out what works for him.

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    13. JustCuz*

      Even if he does have this, he hasn’t recognized it so i am not sure how well telling him this will work. Like he literally is not seeing a pattern.

      Reply ↓
  4. Dido*

    this man needed to be on a PIP weeks ago. classic case of a man feigning incompetence so his (most likely female) coworkers/boss would hold his hand and do his work for him while he gets paid for doing less than the bare minimum.

    Reply ↓
    2. bamcheeks*

      The classic test for “is this someone deliberately weaponising incompetence/anger/ forgetfulness/lack of boundaries” is “are they only doing it to people less powerful than them, and in ways that are unlikely to create consequences for them”. Arnold is doing it TO HIS BOSS, in highly visible ways. If he’s weaponising incompetence, he’s very very bad at it.

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      2. My Useless Two Cents*

        I don’t think weaponized incompetence is only used on those less powerful. Weaponized incompetence can be used on those more powerful, there are just more consequences if used too much or with too much abandon. I have seen many a co-worker use weaponized incompetence on managers with great success (at first, it usually blows up in their face eventually).

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    4. H*

      I was this employee. It was early stage neuro disorder. In the beginning I wasn’t even aware of how extreme it was. It began to hit me in my mid 20s and slowly got worse until it made a big splash in my early 30s. The tricky part of memory loss is it’s easy to forget all the things you’ve forgotten. Until you realize the severity, you don’t know how important systems and procedures are to managing it. I had to fail but I think there are ways to avoid that outcome.

      I wouldn’t necessarily lead with a PIP if I was my manager given we all know what that means even if that’s not the intent, but I wish someone had started to document early on and keep me on that documentation trail. My cognitive symptoms pre dated my muscular symptoms by almost ten years so it would have been almost impossible to have figured out the cause earlier than I did, but I wish a supervisor had clearly expressed concerns with me instead of hoping I read between the lines. Because of how significant my executive dysfunction was, I struggled to notice the impact. I’m an excellent communicator even with the nuero issues so folks assumed I was lazy because my memory and outcomes didn’t match how I communicated.

      One supervisor did start taking notes of our 1:1 meetings for me. I wish I’d implemented a structure to those meetings – things we’d talk about every time like program budget, supervisory issues, strong deadlines vs soft deadlines, a random category, etc. Structure is useful for most people in memory management. I needed it in 1:1 meetings and how I approached my work. Even taking notes wasn’t enough because I’d forget I’d taken those notes.

      Several supervisors tried to navigate my issues indirectly – one supervisor tells me his boss asked that we all detail our day to day tasks on our outlook calendar so she could keep an eye on everyone, instead of just being up front that he wanted better transparency into my day to day. The same supervisor told me that his manager asked that we all attend time management trainings. I found out later I was the only one. Trainings are great and I that management allowed me to work it into my schedule, but having the blame removed from
      me made it so difficult to navigate the situation.

      Clarity is the most important thing here imo and initially it should be clarity with concern and not clarity with punishment. If you scare someone from jump, they’re never going to succeed like you want them too, especially if a medical issue is exacerbating things. If I was supervising someone like me, I’d start documenting early in case it is just poor work ethic but also so the employee has a clear idea of expectations and implement structure together with clear goals and outcomes to be met (with flexibility as needed). Make it measurable and data driven and document document document, that way if worse does come to worse and the individual does have medical issues, they can back track later and figure out what happened and potentially even how to articulate that to their doctors.

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    5. iglwif*

      This doesn’t sound like that at all.

      I mean, he may be incompetent! But if he’s weaponizing that incompetence in order to get others to cover his work, he’s doing so very poorly.

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    6. H*

      I’m a woman in my 30s with a Parkinson’s adjacent neurological disorder and this post could have been written about me pre-treatment and diagnosis.

      While I’m a big believer that we need to hold men responsable in context for their privilege and actions, I think going immediately to PIP without empathy or reasonable documentation and clear communication shared directly to Arnold is unfair to everyone involved.

      He could be lazy but lazy as a knee jerk reaction is just going to create more hassle for everyone.

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    7. fancy pants math*

      There’s no evidence for this.

      In fact, we’re dealing with a case of a young man NOT feigning incompetence. College student, was in a terrible auto wreck, the only survivor, and suffered very serious brain trauma.

      His memory is legitimately crap. He has syllabuses, calendars, people reminding him. He doesn’t turn in work because he doesn’t remember to do it. He flunks all his written tests because even when he does study, he doesn’t remember what he read. Meetings with profs — doesn’t remember what they talked about. It’s actually heart-breaking.

      Now, I’m not saying this is Arnold’s problem. My point is, you jumped to the least flattering explanation when there are all sorts of other reasons.

      Is it reasonable to expect Arnold to find a way to remind himself and to meet the requirements of his job? Yes, it is. Regardless of the explanation.

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      1. daffodil*

        I’ve had students with less severe symptoms like this. I’m a prof and wasn’t in a position to learn if there was a medical or other trauma explanation, but suggested they look into it. One poor kid was cast in a play and couldn’t memorize his lines. Would learn blocking/delivery, and do it well and then return the next day not having retained anything. Bizarre.

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    9. Analystical Tree Hugger*

      No evidence of this, so apply Hanlon’s razor.

      While I agree a PIP is warranted, there’s no reason to assume it’s malice (i.e., feigned incompetence) rather than stupidity (i.e., he’s incompetent and needs to be managed and possibly let go).

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  5. Panda*

    I struggled with something similar to Arnold at my last job. Part of the problem is that they would have 3 different names for everything so they’d refer to the “Strat Plan” but the document would be called “Guidelines for X” and call it “Red Light Green Light” in discussions. I also struggled because most of the instructions were oral and I could not take great notes and listen at the same time, especially since I had moved to a new industry and didn’t have a frame of reference to hang things on. (I am now being evaluated for ADHD in my 50s!) And sometimes my manager did not thoroughly explain everything so I’d ask her a question about something adjacent to something we discussed and she’d be frustrated thinking she explained it already, but I didn’t get the connection because she only explained part of the topic.

    All in all it was a frustrating job and I am happily employed elsewhere now.

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    1. spuffyduds*

      “3 different names for everything”
      Were you working for JRR Tolkien?
      (Seriously though that sounds incredibly frustrating.)

      Reply ↓
    2. Sloanicota*

      I definitely admit that I have had my Arnold moments! My boss tends to spew an overwhelming amount of into at me (she “thinks out loud” …) and our field is very niche with lots of acronyms / quirks, meaning I’m often not retaining all the key things even when I *think* I got it all. I take notes, but that doesn’t really help me. What I do now, and what OP should ask Arnold to do, is list his tasks on some kind of tracker after leaving a check-in meeting, and then follow up by reviewing that tracker at your next check-in, so the errors will be obvious sooner.

      Reply ↓
    3. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Good luck with the ADHD eval – I was diagnosed in 2023 at the ripe ol’ age of 45. And one of my biggest flags was when I was having trouble remembering stuff my boss and I talked about in meetings, but luckily she was understandable and I was able to start paying attention a bit more and focus better after getting treatment.

      I’m surprised Alison didn’t say anything about Arnold being a new employee. If he were a seasoned employee going through a rough patch, it would be one thing, but if he’s been struggling since he started only a few months ago, maybe it’s just that he’s really not a good fit for the job and it’d be better to part ways.

      Reply ↓
    4. EJones*

      I was going through this recently and you describe it well – the multiple names for things is absolutely maddening! And the partial information! It’s impossible to keep up with fast paced, complex work when people communicate this way.

      Reply ↓
  6. ferrina*

    As someone who has occasional working memory issues (thanks, ADHD)- love Alison’s advice. Name the pattern and address it as a work issue. Information retention and repeatedly asking the same questions is a work issue. Don’t guess at the root cause- you likely will have no way of knowing, and even if you do try to guess, you could quickly run afoul of the ADA (ADA applies based on assumed conditions as well, so if Arnold feels singled out, that could easily get you in trouble).
    No matter the root cause, this is Arnold’s to figure out and solve in the way that works for his brain and his workstyle.

    Reply ↓
    1. H.Regalis*

      Agreed. If the cause is medical, it is not OP’s place as his boss to guess at and/or manage his medical conditions for him. If it’s not medical —if he’s being careless or acting in bad faith—he needs to stop.

      Reply ↓
  7. Funko Pops Day*

    To Alison’s point about “someone may say it’s medical in the comments”– it seems like maybe getting HR in the loop about this could be helpful in case he does say “actually it’s medical”, so that you don’t accidentally frame things in a way that runs afoul of ADA/creates unnecessary issues?

    Reply ↓
    1. RagingADHD*

      You’re more likely to run afoul of basic job discrimination / harassment rules by telling HR your employee has an imaginary medical issue that you made up based on their performance problems.

      It is not the manager’s job to presume anything. It is the manager’s job to identify the work impact of a behavior pattern and direct the employee that they need to solve it.

      Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      You can ask HR for guidance in addressing this issue, both as performance and “what if he says it’s medical- what is my next step?”. But do not ask for accommodations or say “I suspect this is a medical issue.” Presuming that someone has a medical condition and treating them differently for that will run afoul of ADA.

      If the manager is comfortable having this discussion as a performance issue, there’s no need to loop in HR (unless it’s assumed that HR is looped into performance issues). This is not a medical issue or presumed medical issue until the employee says “this is a medical issue”.

      Reply ↓
    3. Yorick*

      If you focus on the problem and it’s work impact and what you need to see instead, you will not run afoul of ADA. Arnold can explain that it’s medical and ask for accomodations, but in the end he needs to be able to do the job whether he has a medical issue or not.

      If you try to figure out what medical issue he has or what accomodations he might need, then it’s possible you could run afoul of the ADA.

      Reply ↓
    4. Raida*

      You can’t run afoul of ADA if you tell an employee they need to be following instructions, within the bounds of the role description and expectations, with no knowledge of a pre-existing condition.

      If the staff member needs an accommodation it is necessary to have it documented, and the staff member is responsible for bringing it to the business.

      Reply ↓
  8. Another Ashley*

    I have a bad memory and it gets worse during stressful periods. I create multiple tasks lists and schedule really important tasks. I also use email folders to save emails with important info and will color tag them as well.

    It’s definitely my responsibility to figure out how to retain and organize the info I need regardless of if my memory issues are medical or not.

    Reply ↓
    1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

      oooo can you please explain more about this process? I get a lot of emails so a system like this would be v helpful (I do already tag some stuff).

      Reply ↓
  9. mango chiffon*

    I have what is likely some kind of ADHD related audio processing issue where conversations are incredibly difficult to remember unless I am taking notes. People who send me things via text-based communication are easier for me to follow up with. If someone tells me something while I’m on my way out of the building (which has happened!) it’s very likely I may forget the details and have to message them the next day for clarification. Also, please don’t ask people for things when they are packed up and heading out for the day!

    It sounds very much like Arnold is not trying to take notes, and when there are notes (1:1 conversation) he is not re-checking them. You could probably follow up in an email after a conversation and say “Do x as we discussed” but he also needs to be putting in some effort. I think a PIP is the likely outcome unless Arnold does make some efforts to change.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      Yeah, it’s concerning that Arnold isn’t more worried about the fact he keeps dropping the ball on stuff. Maybe OP does need to make it clearer that this has become a pattern, and it’s a pattern that makes them concerned about Arnold’s ability to do the job, but it’s not clear Arnold’s even acknowledged people have a right to be frustrated and promised to do better.

      Reply ↓
      1. mango chiffon*

        I feel like a lot of people can recognize it in themselves that they forget things, and then implement countermeasures (heavy note taking, recording, etc.) like many other people have mentioned in the comments. I find it hard to believe Arnold doesn’t recognize he’s making these mistakes, but I wonder if Arnold is new to working and just doesn’t know how to deal with this. Either that or it’s just flat out excuses.

        Reply ↓
    2. duinath*

      “ If someone tells me something while I’m on my way out of the building (which has happened!) it’s very likely I may forget the details and have to message them the next day for clarification”

      May I suggest “I’m just heading out, send me an email about it and I’ll get back to you (next working day)?” Hopefully if you do that enough they’ll give it a rest…

      Reply ↓
      1. Venus*

        I always ask for an email reminder in those circumstances, because I think it’s normal for people to forget a request made in that way. I occasionally get requests for help when I’m having lunch or leaving for the day and my response is to say that I’ll happily help out if they can email me a reminder. I’ve heard coworkers do the same. I don’t mind that someone asks me at those times because often they happened to see me, yet I also think it’s reasonable for them to email a reminder.

        Reply ↓
    3. Raida*

      Yeah, whatever the underlying reason is, Arnold isn’t taking it seriously enough – and a PIP is honestly the strongest tool in telling staff “This needs to change” and have them believe it

      Reply ↓
  10. Meaningful hats*

    I have a medical issue that causes lapses in memory like this. Since junior high I’ve been known as “the girl with the notebook”. I write down EVERYTHING. My coworkers joke about my notebook, come to me when they need information refreshers (because they know I wrote it down!), and I was even gifted a very lovely pen at my last job so that I’m never without a writing implement for my notes. I singlehandedly keep Mead Five Star in business.

    I’m not saying Arnold shouldn’t be heading for a PIP, but perhaps making note-taking a condition of his role will help? He has to actually do it, but if he does, it could help him be more successful.

    Reply ↓
    1. I should really pick a name*

      The measure for success should be the result, not the method used to reach the result.

      There’s no guarantee that note taking will actually improve his performance. And if Arnold finds an alternate method that works, it doesn’t make sense to require him to take notes.

      Reply ↓
    2. Yorick*

      He’s already not rereading shared notes, though. He’s claiming he’s never heard of things that there is already written documentation of.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Right, but there is a difference in literally writing by hand and typing on a keyboard. The brain processes it differently. So Slack and emails might not work for him and note taking could still work.

        Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      For a moment I was worried it was, then realized that when my boss reminds me of something, my response is “I’m so sorry! That slipped off my radar- I’ll take care of it right away.”

      Of course, I also remember the convo when reminded; Arnold might completely have no memory of it (or maybe he’s lying to save face. Or some combo. We have no way of knowing).

      Reply ↓
      1. Mairzy Doats*

        This IS my manager. After trying several suggestions to help him remember to tell me things, we finally settled on a weekly check-in. Now he remembers most of the things he needs to tell me, but once in a while he still forgets, but then he remembers the next day. It is exhausting, though.

        Reply ↓
    3. Hlao-roo*

      Check out these past letters for advice:

      “our CEO forgets she approved things and then freaks out on us about it” from November 9, 2016

      “my lovely but bumbling boss is driving me crazy” from February 7, 2022 (and update on December 15, 2022)

      “My boss changes her instructions after I’ve already starting working on a project” from September 15, 2022 (#1 on a short-answer post)

      I will provide links in a follow-up comment.

      Reply ↓
    4. cindylouwho*

      This is my boss. I email everything. And I’m not afraid to refer him back to them. And also I’m working on moving on out of my role lol (I cannot take explaining something to him for the eighth time anymore)

      Reply ↓
    5. Burnt Out Librarian*

      I have an admin who has overbooked herself to the point where she forgets things and leaves tasks unfinished and things unplanned for months, then expects us to scramble to get things done last minute when she’s the obstacle to getting anything done. It’s really created a big back-up at work and is also a symptom of being a micromanager. She really needs to restructure her priorities, but there’s no one available to tell her to get out of her peoples’ way.

      So sadly, I don’t have a solution, but I do have a lot of sympathy.

      Reply ↓
    6. 50k and counting*

      this is my manager and he also engages in intentional gaslighting. much of his bad behavior predated his stroke but it’s infinitely worse now. at the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether it’s him choosing to be bad at his job or for medical reasons, he’s bad at his job and we’re all suffering for it.

      Reply ↓
  12. Julie*

    I’ve worked with a man like this and a woman like this. in both cases, they were unable to improve despite PIPs and attempts at support.

    He seemed genuinely baffled and concerned when shown evidence of his lapses. She would instead get angry and accuse us of falsifying emails, etc. I think both reactions came from fear because they couldn’t trust their own memories.

    I will never know what happened, but I hope both had temporary issues that were fixable. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be to struggle that way.

    Reply ↓
    1. Venus*

      When someone has dementia, one of the first symptoms is anger. It happens because people can’t believe it is their own memory so they get upset at others. I was living with my grandmother when she started to get dementia and I had to move out because she was often upset with me and started to think that I was the problem. It didn’t improve our relationship or her memory but at least she had to stop accusing me of stealing items that she’d misplaced or used up.

      Reply ↓
      1. boof*

        I think a lot of it depends on the type of dementia – but yes it’s not uncommon to “cover” (
        probably unintentionally) with anger, or humor, etc.

        Reply ↓
  13. WorkerDrone*

    I think there is one key part of Alison’s advice I would strongly suggest OP hone in on – to make sure that “he refer[s] back to them [the notes] every time he works on that project.”

    He already has written notes – the notes from the 1:1, for example, or the questions answered on Slack. So he already has at least some written documentation to refer back to. The problem is that he isn’t doing that.

    So I would, at least for now, tell him very clearly that you are requiring him to review the written notes for each project each time he works on it.

    That might go hand-in-hand with a larger strategy – I’m thinking, telling him he has to write up a summary of the meeting that includes the project goals, the major steps or landmarks along the way he needs to hit, and the timeline. He then sends that summary to you within 24 hours. You review it and return it within 24 hours. Then, he MUST consult it every time he touches the project.

    If, after 2-3 months, the problem is resolved, great.

    If it isn’t, I cannot see how this person is capable of continuing to do this job.

    Reply ↓
  14. Burnt Out Librarian*

    I’m a benefit-of-the-doubt type so I’m certainly curious about whether this is medical as well. Do you still have contact information for his professional references? It may be worth reaching out and having an off-the-record conversation about whether he’s had this issue in the past. If you can eliminate it as a pattern, especially since he gave off such a good impression during his interview process, it may be circumstantial, either from a medical issue (I’ve heard of Long COVID causing big memory issues) or his current home life or even just… /gestures vaguely at the world.

    Either way, like Alison says, you need to let him know it’s an issue, it’s causing problems for his colleagues, and if he continues it’s going to lead to a verbal warning/written warning/PIP/termination or whatever the disciplinary process is at your organization. Sadly sometimes people interview really well and then get the job and drop all pretense. If his work history is scattered, that also may be a tell. But I’m a big advocate of compassion first leadership, just don’t let him take advantage if that’s what you’re sensing is really going on here.

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Thank you for bringing up Long COVID, because I was surprised how long it took for someone to mention it. While I appreciate on its face that even if the issue is medical, the solutions are the same, I think it’s really important to note that as a population we’re experiencing a very large cognitive decline between COVID and other diseases that can cause brain fog, amongst other unhelpful symptoms. I don’t care to diagnose Arnold in particular, just that I think managers should be aware of this super common thing that is definitely affecting at least some of their employees, if not themselves as well.

      I’ve just seen so many colleagues decline from where they used to be to where Arnold is now, and no amount of “Just write it down!” or “repeat things back to me!” is going to fix that what is functionally a brain injury. I had a colleague ask me last month to start working with them on a project that we finished nine months previously, that they’d already followed up with me twice about since the project finished. Writing something down doesn’t matter if they don’t remember that they even have notes they could be checking in the first place.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        Yeah, I think it’s very likely we’re going to see more covid-related memory-glitches over the coming few decades, in younger cohorts than would’ve been common pre-2020.

        Reply ↓
    2. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I’m not sure I’d agree with any of the first paragraph. For one, you’re potentially relaying an employee’s work performance by reaching out to his former references. Even if it’s just tidbits of his work performance, you’re communicating that there’s an issue just by asking the question which could adversely affect his professional career depending on his network and the size of the field. If it’s a medical issue, I’d also be concerned about how you’re obtaining information and whether that violates his right to privacy. If you can’t directly ask Arnold about whether he has a medical issue, you absolutely shouldn’t be going around to people in his past and asking them to hint at whether he might have a medical issue.

      Reply ↓
  15. tango*

    It definitely sounds like at least for the time being, Arnold needs more frequent check-ins on larger projects since he is dropping the ball so often. That doesn’t necessarily fix issues like writing a whole report about something while forgetting/leaving out key context, but it could – if you have the bandwidth to ask for more detail when checking in, it might help with that too. But at least it will prevent “you never told me to do that” over a month into a project he should already have mostly done.

    Reply ↓
  16. Snarkastic*

    Side note for any FAngelas in here: Angela Lansbury was in “Gaslight” and helped the husband pull off his little scheme.

    Reply ↓
  17. Goldenrod*

    I have a bad memory too. I rely on no less than FIVE wall calendars and multiple task lists that help me keep track of status on projects, who said what when, and deadlines. Without all of these tools, I’d be lost.

    However, have we considered the possibility that Arnold is secretly doing a job share with his identical twin?? …… No?

    I’ve been watching too much television…

    Reply ↓
    1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

      My mom has The Appointment Wall. My parents are both in their late 60s and worried about memory decline, so mom has a wall calendar she writes everything on AND tapes appointment cards to the wall all around it, so dental appointment cards, doctor ones, anything you get an appointment card to gets taped up next to the calendar as a checks-and-balances. Her shopping list gets taped to the counter in the kitchen until it is time to go shopping. She adds to the end of it whenever she finds something she needs to get, then sits down and organizes it by where things are in the store before going shopping. She keeps a planner in addition to all that.

      I learned any coping skills I have from her. I know she has undiagnosed ADHD but she’s not interested in “a label” at her age, she says.

      Reply ↓
  18. cindylouwho*

    Did you write this about my boss…? I’ve had to revert to emailing him everything, because he no longer remembers anything.

    Reply ↓
  19. tina turner*

    Obviously, the solution is warn him IN WRITING that he often “forgets” what you say so you have a new policy of WRITTEN communication. This will quickly either work or not work. And it’s a paper trail if you have to fire him.

    It’s a pain, I know, but it’s like “probation” and it’s a record. If he’s got serious memory loss it’ll soon be clear.

    Reply ↓
    1. Porque answer*

      The LW mentioned that Arnold does the same thing with their peer, and gave examples of written communication between her peer and Arnold.

      Reply ↓
  20. Specialist*

    I had one like this. Made frequent errors that cost us. The other staff had to check her work. She did have ADHD. She was a kind person and I would have liked to keep her. I looked up accomodations for people with ADHD and tried to set her up so that she didn’t have to multi-task as much. Part of that was her start time. If we could have gotten her started a little earlier in the morning, she could have gotten a few tasks out of the way before the phones turned on. Apparently, being able to do one task at a time is really helpful for some people. For my employee, getting into the office on time was a problem. It didn’t get better. I made pie charts so that she could see how she was doing. There is more to that story, but the exercise of adjusting her job with the help of those accomodations was a great idea. I think it would have been really helpful if the conditions were a bit different. Hope that is helpful.

    Reply ↓
  21. Aggretsuko*

    I do this at times. I can’t explain it, it makes no sense, it irritates people. It’s probably ADHD or something, but sometimes things just…don’t stay in my brain if it was said aloud to me. I’m not very auditory.

    Reply ↓
    2. Mad Scientist*

      That sucks! In this case it’s happening with written communication too so I think there’s something else going on.

      Reply ↓
  22. HonorBox*

    LW, you don’t need to help Arnold figure out why this is happening or how to fix it. You need to simply tell him this is a pattern, is being noticed by others and not just you, that it occurs regardless of the method of communication, and that it needs to be fixed. Give him a bit of time, as he’s probably not going to know immediately how to fix it (else he would have suggested something already), but don’t give him too much time. It may require some additional oversight and work on your part so as he figures stuff out, he isn’t completely floundering. But that oversight will give you a better sense of how he’s progressing, and will allow you to evaluate more quickly whether this is going to work or not.

    Reply ↓
  23. Broken Brain*

    I was an Arnold in my 30’s. I had undiagnosed depression and no matter what I did, nothing of importance would stick in my brain.

    Yes, I wrote things down. I wrote things down furiously. And if I didn’t have all of my notes fanned out on my desk in front of me, I couldn’t have a productive conversation on the topic at hand or do any work related to it.

    I was PIP’d out of two companies (OK, I left one juuuuust before they put me on a PIP) and had to take a huge cut in pay by going to work for a big box home improvement store.

    Even after my depression was diagnosed, I went through years of roller coaster-ing onto one med, then titrating off because it didn’t work, then slowly starting another med and then titrating off that med; scrub, rinse, repeat (and repeat and repeat).

    The solution ended up being to raise my serum Vit D3 levels and getting off hormonal birth control.

    If this is Arnold’s issue, I feel for him. Because his career trajectory is going to take a huge hit (or, at least, mine sure did).

    Not that he shouldn’t be put on a PIP — he should, if he can’t figure out a way to retain important info — but… damn… it sucks when your brain gets in its own way.

    Reply ↓
    2. The difficulty of depression*

      I can relate to this.
      There are so many life losses when you have (partially treated/treatable) clinical depression.

      Not having good career progression due to how this medical condition effects one’s work life, is one of those big losses.

      Reply ↓
  24. Orange You Glad*

    Does he take notes during your conversations? I always make it clear to everyone I work with that they should always have a pen & paper (or digital equivalent) ready whenever they are meeting with anyone. Worst case scenario, it’s a casual convo and you don’t need it.

    I’d name the problem and probably ask him to send you a summary of your convo after to make sure he understands the basics.

    That doesn’t fix all the problems but maybe will force him to see the issue.

    Reply ↓
  25. Hyaline*

    And an add-on, especially if it turns out Arnold has a medical condition or other issue that explains it but even if not–build notetaking and repeat-backs and follow-ups into your interactions. He may struggle to ASK for this accommodation or know when it’s appropriate, so model it. It’s a good practice to build in pauses and checks anyway, but especially with someone who’s struggling to retain and apply what you talk about. Take pauses and reiterate “I’ll give you a minute to write that down,” ask for “repeat back” not only at the end of longer meetings but at higher frequency (after topics are covered, important basics, etc), and ask Arnold to send you an email afterward with his summary of the meeting and his action items–or send him one, or both. I’m not saying he’s not ultimately responsible here, but you can facilitate making space for better practices.

    Reply ↓
  26. Zona the Great*

    I think what would make me even crazier is the responses of, “I don’t recall having that conversation” as though there’s a possibility that the convo didn’t happen at all since he can’t recall it. This is where I can see it feels gaslighty because the possibility that this guy doesn’t know he has a memory problem is slim. I’d have a hard time saying “Yes, obviously you don’t remember it, Fergus”

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Oh see I find that response much better than “You never told me!” because it builds in the assumption that although Fergus can’t personally recall it, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

      Reply ↓
      1. HonorBox*

        I can see what @Zona is saying, and I think a lot depends on Arnold’s tone when he says it. It could be as you said that he can’t recall, but if there’s a different tone, it could be placing the onus back on LW, making them question whether or not it did.

        Reply ↓
        1. Myrin*

          Yeah, I can see someone saying this very smugly and even kind of condescendingly but I can just as well imagine it as synonymous to “I forgot HALP”.

          Reply ↓
      1. Zona the Great*

        I would prefer he assumes he failed to remember so we wouldn’t have to do the eventual back and forth of the, yes-we-did, I-don’t-remember-it,-well-do-it-now, how-do-you-want-me-to-do-it, the-way-I-told-you-in-our-meeting, but-I-don’t-remember, Dance.

        “Arnold, where is Task A that was due today?” “I didn’t do it”. This at least cuts out much of the dance.

        Reply ↓
        1. tango*

          Sure, but if his memory is really this bad, he may not clock how often this happens to be able to safely make that assumption. It’s hard to judge from the outside whether he’s being lowkey subordinate and careless or if he’s really got some kind of cognitive issue going on.

          Reply ↓
        2. I should really pick a name*

          Isn’t that what “I don’t recall” means?

          There could even be a situation where someone thinks the conversation happened and it actually didn’t.

          Reply ↓
          1. hodie-hi*

            This is a thing, though it’s certainly not what’s happening to this letter writer! I think it’s possible for someone to intend to discuss or do something, run through their points in their head, but then it never happens in the real world. In their head, it’s happened and it’s so hard to convince them otherwise. This can happen with dreams too, so the experience seems to have been real.

            Reply ↓
  27. Neurospicy*

    When this gets addressed with Arnold, and it needs to be addressed pronto, I think it’s a good idea to gently suggest he also see if there could be a medical issue that is contributing to the problem.

    Anxiety can do nasty things to the short-term memory, for example. So can some medications.

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      While it may be true, the employer should not be suggesting the potential for medical issues. If Arnold brings it up, it is something that can be discussed, but the LW is not a doctor (I assume) and shouldn’t be even suggesting medical advice.

      Reply ↓
  28. Fluffy Fish*

    On the chance its related to inability to see the trees in the forest as in doesn’t quite know how to manage tackling/accomplishing a big task/assignment…Perhaps suggest specifically breaking his notes into two parts.

    For every conversation/assignment he needs to have 1) a list of subtasks and 2) a list of relevant contextual information related to the assignment.

    Related to the concept of breaking something large into smaller manageable parts.

    Reply ↓
  29. Kate Moseley*

    I recently had this issue due to a medication switch. I was so embarrassed, because prior, I had always been able to multi-task and work quickly. I ended up confirming my takeaways with my colleagues after each meeting. Then I changed up how I kept to-do lists. It got me back on track. Thankfully, my medication was adjusted and it is no longer an issue, but it was a tough few months. The trick is that you have to recognize the issue and be willing to work on it, and if this colleague is not, that is a huge problem.

    Reply ↓
  30. Anonsuch*

    My mom’s treated me to many a rant about her soon-to-be former coworker who acts similarly to Arnold. Didn’t seem to matter how times they walked Alice through the steps to do something, didn’t matter how times and different ways they wrote down the steps for her, didn’t matter how often they told her to look up the information herself – Alice was pinging people all day long asking basically the same 5 questions over and over and over again, about the work that they did every single day. At point it almost looks like a self-imposed incompetence, except that requires more thought than this kind of person seems to be able to manage.

    Management at my mom’s company is extremely dysfunctional, to put it lightly, but Alice’s incompetence finally reached a point where they couldn’t ignore it anymore after she caused a *major* compliance issue. She was given a month to get her act together or she could leave. Somehow, miraculously, Alice had enough brains to “retire” instead.

    …Which is a long way to say, the LW needs to sit Arnold down and explain exactly the issues she’s having, but she also needs to be prepared to let him go or for him to walk.

    Reply ↓
  31. Somehow I Manage*

    I remember some things and forget some things. I generally know what I may forget, so I have systems to ensure I don’t forget. That includes copious notes, reminder emails to myself, reminders on my phone. And there are times when I do forget something important. But I don’t go back to my boss, my spouse, my friends and accuse them of not telling me. I own the oversight and figure out how to move forward.

    But then oddly, ask me the number for a particular electronic file I used in college, and I’ll be glad to drop that knowledge on you decades later…

    Reply ↓
  32. H*

    I tried to add a comment early and it didn’t seem to post so if this is a duplicate, please bear with me lol

    This article could have been written about me. I have a neuromuscular disorder that wasn’t identified until my early 30s. My cognitive symptoms hit around 23 though, right out of college, and got progressively worse. My muscular symptoms didn’t show up until I was almost 30 and they were initially very mild so it took years for doctors to connect the dots that this was more than a psychiatric disorder. I’m also an above average communicator. It’s always been a strength, so my ability to talk and sell ideas and communicate in writing hid a lot of my more profound cognitive decline.

    The trick about memory loss is it’s easy to forget what you’ve forgotten. It’s easy to forget the severity of an error. You can take note after note after note and still forget you took any notes. I had a growing sense of apathy caused by my illness – I could not process consequences of inaction and starting tasks felt insurmountable. It was similar to depression but without all of the extra elements. Despite being a person who cares deeply, I couldn’t conceptualize cause and effect of projects in the workplace even when they did matter to me.

    It got gradually worse over the years. In the beginning I could mostly hide it. I was a standout employee in some ways while absolutely scrambled in other ways. Eventually the standout parts ran out.

    What I wish had happened was that my supervisors had clearly documented their concerns. Because there was a discrepancy between how I communicated versus the quality of my work, they assumed it was a work ethic issue and gave passive remarks I couldn’t remember in the moment. I wish there had been 1:1 meetings with notes/minutes documenting concerns. Ideally these wouldn’t have begun as a punitive approach, but just a concerned and empathetic form of open communication. That step was often missed though and the first conversations about errors and mistakes came in the form of punishment, which then stressed me out, exacerbating my symptoms (unbeknownst to me) and making things worse.

    My last role was where I finally received a PIP. I think that was fair, but had received no direct communication prior. There were no emails clearly expressing concerns. There were no 1:1 detailing issues. That supervisor would often defer to his manager stating “my manager wants you to be more detailed in your outlook calendar. She likes transparency with time and asked it of all of us” only to find out that she had no requested that and I was the only one asked. It was hard to get a read on what was a legitimate concern and what wasn’t and because my supervisor wasn’t bringing up concerns, it felt difficult to bring them up myself since I sensed a conversation was being avoided.

    I had a lot of coping skills I developed over time. Unfortunately medication was the best one very late in the game. I think all of my supervisors were very fair in their frustrations but I was I’d been given clear and concise communication and documentation of those concerns instead of indirect statements I was unsure how to interpret. One supervisor did track minutes from our 1:1s and that was very helpful. I wish I’d imposed more structure because structure helps memory – I just didn’t know that then.

    At the end of the day if the employee can’t do the work, steps need to be taken but I think it’s important to lead with clear communication and detail examples clearly while listing clear repercussions and consequences. At the very least, it protects the supervisor and company, but more so it can give an individual words to tell their medical providers to outline symptoms. Medical providers are concerned with how your symptoms impact your daily functioning so workplace feedback can actually be very useful in complex diagnoses.

    If I was the supervisor here, I would immediately start documenting and setting up very regular, clearly structured meetings where the same things are addressed in the same general agenda weekly and it’s all clearly documented. I’d establish repercussions where possible and if things didn’t improve bring up what kind of lack of improvement would lead to a PIP and worse. With cognitive issues, sometimes it’s difficult to assess the complexity of the situation while your head deep and having it laid out makes it easier but it also protects the manager and company.

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  33. Another Arnold*

    Damn, I’m Arnold (in a different industry). I try to do things like take notes in meetings, 1-on-1’s etc, but then I forget I’ve taken the notes. (I take physical notes, not computer ones, and then if I can’t file them right away, I forget). I try to check, double check and recheck, but I totally find things on notes (that I’ve forgotten I’ve taken) days or weeks later. Sometimes it does bite me. I haven’t yet found a solution that 100% works for me, but I’m all ears. I can point to lots of reasons why I’m like this, but damn, I’m unhappy about it.

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    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      This is why I primarily have digital notes for things, because then I can at least use a search function to look up “Project Name” or whatever instead of flipping through 150 pages of hastily scrawled notes in hopes I had the good sense to write them in a way that had scannable headings or whatever. I use OneNote for this because then I can really flesh out different sections for different projects/meetings/whatever. But I also rarely attend in-person meetings, so it’s a lot easier for me to take digital notes at my computer.

      Reply ↓
      1. mango chiffon*

        For me, I need to physically write to remember, but there are also devices like reMarkable that convert written text to searchable digital notes. I haven’t tried it as writing still works for me, but there are options like that if the physical action of writing helps as it does for me.

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        1. Ruby Tuesday*

          I’ve been wanting to try one of them, but haven’t pulled the trigger yet. I take LOTS of notes (I’m a project manager with ADHD lol) and I can’t type and pay attention to the conversation at the same time. Writing, instead of typing, doesn’t present the same problem, but having to go back and type them up later is kind of a pain in the butt.

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          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            Rocketbook! Available on Amazon or through their own website — it’s a notebook made of reusable paper (available in a variety of sizes with a variety of templates, ranging from agendas to dot paper to lined paper), and as long as you use the specific pen type (Pilot Frixxion, they’re not hard to find, I’ve gotten them at Target for a normal pen price in a million colors) then you can -a- use the app to digitize the page, and then -b- wipe the page clean with a damp cloth to reuse it. (You can also do a template of the digitization framework that you can put over a regular piece of paper or whatnot to make your own templates, plus they have a set of four corners that you can stick on a whiteboard to digitize whiteboard brainstorming.)

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      2. Another Arnold*

        I can’t take digital notes because: (1)sometimes I’m screen sharing and (2) I can’t freaking find anything on my computer. ( I’ve switched from 35 years of Unix, where I can find things just fine, to Windows, where the search function for files doesn’t work. And for security reasons, I can’t have Linux for Windows installed. )
        Also, physical notes are good for quick drawings, and annotating them. IF I can remember I’ve taken the notes.

        Reply ↓
        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          I couldn’t do it if I didn’t have dual monitors. One for the screen I’m sharing, one for the notes.

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    2. HonorBox*

      The Remarkable tablet might help because you’re taking physical notes and then syncing them to your computer, which allows you to have them in digital form, making it easier to filter. I have friends who swear by them. I’ve never used one myself, so I can’t speak to exactly how you can sort though files, but it might be something to look at. Amazon has one similar that comes with a smaller price tag too.

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    3. PP*

      Idea: 1 large notebook of the kind of size and paper that you most like.

      On the first page and/or on the cover write the date you started using the notebook, and when it is full write the date and time of the last entry.

      Before each meeting, conversation, etc. make a heading for the notes. Include things like time and date, location, who was present.

      Dedicate the margins for putting down keywords of the relevant topic. These are what you would visually search for to look something up.

      Be sure to use a calendar to put dates and times of meetings in, and topic. The calendar entries will help you when you need to look something up in your notebooks.

      If the notebook contains critical info, put it into an electronic backup file by scanning it.
      Some place like an office store which has printers people can use will also have scanners.

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  34. I'm the Phoebe in Any Group*

    Since Arnold’s communications with Dane are in writing but still have the same problems, it doesn’t seem like this will work out in Arnold’s favor. Arnold has the information in writing and is ignoring it or just refuses to pay attention. It sounds like you are going to need to let him go.

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  35. Jazzzy*

    Memory problems are tricky because it’s not going to be very obvious to the person who has them. It’s normal to forget some things, but if you’re always forgetting the past times you forgot stuff… how could you see the pattern yourself? Especially if it’s a progressive thing. Like, everyone forgets more as they get older, right? But it’s a difference in degrees, and hard to know how much is “normal”. Sometimes you just need someone kindly pointing it out and helping with adopting strategies to keep track of things. Or a wake up call to see a doctor.

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    1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      Yeah, being clear and direct about what’s happening, why it’s causing problems, and the seriousness of the issue is crucial here. If no one has ever told Arnold – or if it’s a new-ish thing or a slow-brewing thing – it could be enough to simply point it out and help him realize he needs new/different systems to keep track of stuff.

      Also, the written repeat-back = magic at solving this issue in my experience.

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  37. Jojo*

    I’ve worked with this guy. I have some executive function issues myself, and I have developed a whole bunch of things to keep me on track. But this guy I worked with? He was aware of some of the problems, but he just wasn’t able to perform at the level necessary. He’d print out emails and read them multiple times. He would repeat your words back to you. He took notes. He set reminders. (He was sharing his screen one day and a reminder popped up on his screen. He had been delaying it since the previous day.) He just…couldn’t do it. He finally moved on to bigger and better things, unfortunately it didn’t work out and he’s on the job hunt again. Sometimes, a job just isn’t the right fit for a person, and I suspect that’s the case with Arnold. Be clear on expectations and work from there.

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  39. Danish*

    Oh this happened to me and it was very scary. I was sleeping so badly that I started completely dropping events and conversations from my memory (including ones where I’d clearly participated and been engaged, like that 1:1 described). I also couldn’t tell how badly I was doing – until it was pointed out to me, since it’s basically impossible to realize you’ve forgotten entire events since you…don’t remember them.

    Big sympathies to this guy because being told “we have talked about this before” when you have no memory of it quickly starts to feel like you’re the one going insane/being gaslighted.

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  40. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

    Ok I’ll say it. He might use too much marijuana. It is legal in my state, but some people have forgotten it’s not a health food. Short term memory fuzz is a well-known side effect. I worked from a guy wwho was useless every time he got back from vacation. He’d overindulge and it took about a week for him to reset. Very frustrating. Know your limits, people.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hiring Mgr*

      I suppose that’s possible but it could also be a million other things. To confirm, if he drives to work, you can check his car to see if he has any Peter Paul and Mary tapes.

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  41. Sara without an H*

    Hi, LW — Whatever you do, don’t get so invested that you try to solve Arnold’s problem for him. I’m thinking of a letter from a few months back, in which the LW not only pointed out performance problems for the employee, she kept coming up with solutions for her to try. I’m too lazy to look up the original, but the LW wrote in to Alison because none of the solutions she tried to impose on the employee worked.

    Arnold’s difficulties may be medical, emotional, or just how Arnold relates to the universe. Your job as his manager is to define the problem clearly, describe the standards he has to meet, then hold him accountable. Finding a solution is up to Arnold.

    Make sure you keep your own manager up to date on what you’re doing. It might be a good idea to brief HR, too, especially if you think you’ll have to move to a formal PIP.

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  42. MAOM7*

    D. He smokes a lot of pot.

    I know, that may not be the answer, but this is actually pretty much the behavior I see with employees who are smoking a lot of pot. I live in a very liberal state that has legalized pot, I’ve seen a lot of this type of behavior over the course of my career but more lately, and in all age groups. “Forgetfulness” which is really that the person wasn’t able to remember what was said due to being impaired, and an inability to do even moderate executive functioning that would make it better/easier for them to create systems for their forgetfulness. I have even seen this in one of my friends, who smokes heavily, and it is pretty sad to see.

    As a manager, I address performance issues, regardless of cause, pretty much the same way – serious talks, setting goals/markers for improvement, suggestions for tools or process changes that may help, etc. But in the end, the problem rests with the employee, and once given the tools and being made to understand the consequences of continuing performance issues, the ball is in their court. I don’t like to let people go, but I also need people to do the job they were hired for.

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  43. PlainJane*

    Ugh, this is my bugbear, and I feel for Arnold… and also for OP. With me, it’s an ADHD thing, and going to the various support sites to find hacks has helped. For this kind of thing, I’d recommend doing bullet points in the assignments (either when you give them or when he writes them down in the meetings). He may not be great at taking general notes (I literally failed note-taking in school), but having a quick, simple list of requirements for an assignment would be a smart way to help, like
    “Teapots to Toasters report
    *What led to decision
    *analyze first data on decision
    *evaluate teapot maker morale after switching to toaster design
    *2500 words”

    (Or whatever you require from the report, obviously. Then it can go into the document on the computer he’ll actually be working on. Then set alarms for the due dates of each part.)

    For your part, I’d also send the assignment in a follow-up email after whatever conversation you had. Maybe just as a regular practice with everyone. Some people retain conversations better, some do better with things in writing. Maybe block off time in his schedule specifically for it as well so that when he sees the morning schedule, the first thing that hits is “2-3, teapot report.”

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  44. Abe Froman*

    Oof, I feel for Arnold (and am secretly worried I am Arnold). A majorly helpful thing for me is summaries. If I can receive a summary from someone with particular notes of things that I am responsible for deadlines I need to meet, that is HUGELY helpful. Its something I try to do it for myself, but trying to take notes while listening can often be difficult for me. Additionally, find out if he has a process for managing his tasks. I use a combination of project management software and reminders in my calendar. So then you can set the expectation of “I’m going to send you a summary of our conversation with notes of things that you need to do, when you receive it, you will add things to whatever system and let me know you’ve done it.” That provides a clear way to follow-up if a thing gets dropped: Did you read my summary? Did you add it to your system?

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  45. Tenebrae*

    I had an employee like this once. He seemed genuinely really keen and interested and when I finally spoke to him about the pattern we were seeing, he not only apologised, he took ownership and came up with a list of ways he could prevent it from happening again. I was really impressed. And then nothing improved. No advice, just commiseration.

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  46. Lissa*

    I had the same issues as Arnold when I was put on lithium. But I was fortunate that I had been with the company for a while, had built a solid reputation for myself already, and had a very understanding manager. And a change of meds was all I needed to get me back on track.

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  47. Rick Tq*

    Mine was a combination of ADD and Sleep Apnea. I was so tired and easily distracted I couldn’t remember a lot of things. I started taking a lot more notes in meetings plus used more structure in tracking my task lists. Once I got the sleep apnea treated the clouds lifted and my memory issues got a lot better. I kept the note taking and other support tools even after things improved so I have a back-stop if I get sick and loopy for a few days.

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  48. Just Thinkin' Here*

    While I think chances are slim it’s a medical issue, it could be. I went from having a photographic memory to brain fog due to medication, so I understand what can happen due to medical issues. Luckily, I had already proven myself on the job and alerted my manager once the symptoms started happening. In my case, there were no alternative medicines to be given and I was already someone who writes things down. I started making additional lists and checking my notes more often hoping the cross-referencing would help and it did.

    I also understand the need for the business to have a functioning employee. Checking in with your employee once a month isn’t frequent enough – don’t you have more regular one-on-ones or team meetings where you discuss project updates? If he’s doing a report on the change in sales due to a large shift in business strategy, why isn’t that being communicated corporate wide on a regular basis? Or is this person the only one in the dark?

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  49. Dust Bunny*

    I am notorious for my three-item memory (this has been a running joke my whole life; it’s not new/age-related). I forget stuff all the time. I’m not ADD, even, and I’m not on any medications or drugs. But I deal with it by WRITING EVERYTHING DOWN–literally, on paper; sending myself emails and flagging them; creating email folders by project to collect them under a heading that I will see on a regular basis; whatever it takes. But Arnold has to care enough to figure out what works for him.

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    1. Goldenrod*

      This is me too, Dust Bunny! I use the same method of tracking everything in writing…I have so many reminders and visual aids ALL OVER my cubicle.

      But you are right that Arnold has to care enough to implement similar strategies.

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  50. Annony*

    When I first developed epilepsy, the main symptom was memory gaps. Having people at work bring it up actually helped me to get diagnosed because I had no idea that these gaps were happening as frequently as they were. And I was able to compensate by taking very detailed notes and reviewing them at the beginning of the day and would know to check my email and slack before asking something until I got a diagnosis and got the problem under control. I agree that even if it is medical, it has to be addressed.

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  51. learnedthehardway*

    I wouldn’t assume gaslighting. To me, it sounds like a memory issue.

    Personally, I found out I likely have a memory disability, because my niece was diagnosed with one, and I have many of the same symptoms. For whatever reason, we do not “write” short-term memories to long-term memory. At least, not easily. Turns out, we can do it if we are physically active in some way, at the same time. Meant my niece learned to read and do mathematics while walking on a treadmill.

    For me, my memory is lousy, and I have to write detailed notes to remember anything. I re-learn things all the time. I find that I remember things better if I am doing something like knitting while speaking with people – usually, I have to take notes, though. I calendar my deadlines and set reminders.

    Your employee needs to get better organizational skills to manage his schedule and remember his assignments. You should point this out to him – he may not be aware. Give him examples. Tell him you expect him to take detailed notes, keep to-do lists, calendar his work deadlines and plan out how he will get the work done.

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  52. Margaret*

    In addition to possible medical issues that aren’t linked to behaviour, there is also the chance that you’re having these conversations while he’s blackout drunk and you don’t realise it, and that’s why he tells you the conversations never happened.

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  53. Coverage Associate*

    I haven’t read all the comments, but especially as he’s relatively new, I hope the discussion includes an offer to acquire tools to help him. In my profession, there are several software options, and of course there are calendars and notebooks, etc. I have struggled in environments where I didn’t have at least one of each: software and something physical.

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  54. Sleepy*

    lol at my immediate fear this was about me. whew.
    I am going to say that these symptoms were a medical issue for me, *and* I ended up on a PIP at my job while I was trying to figure it out (covid era, nonessential tests canceled, etc). I was completely missing conversations/details, and my family (not my boss) noted that I was responding defensively/aggressively (for me) when it was pointed out to me in conversations. Another symptom, and a harmful one at that.
    The best thing my employer could have done in retrospect was, when they gave up-front feedback on issues with my performance via call/video, also document it in a follow up email. Black and white text is sobering, right? You have a paper trail you can both immediately review. Plus, I could’ve brought it to my doctor, since my work performance was something we analyzed together.
    My fear for OP is they get to a point where they introduce the PIP thinking this conversation had been rehashed multiple times, and then the employee feels blindsided (like me) and react poorly (I sobbed on the call, I can’t imagine how uncomfortable that was for my boss). It makes the following process so much harder when you aren’t expecting it, especially if there is an outside cause.
    I am still working on managing my symptoms but the biggest improvement for me is leaving project notes in a shared document or workspace, where someone else is regularly active and can comment when my takeaways don’t match theirs. But for a while at that last job, I did email my agendas and notes to my boss for approval. This is a performance issue, you have room to insist they adapt temporarily while you sort it out.
    Sorry OP, I hope your employee generally acts in good faith towards you and their team. I am still on good terms with my former boss even though I left. We’ve actually hired each other for different projects since then. It can work out in the end.

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  55. NZReb*

    I agree that he needs to come up with solutions himself. But does your company use task tracking software like Trello? That has the advantage of keeping all your tasks visible in one place and making them easy to skim, which can help with “I forgot I took notes”. Even if the whole company isn’t using it, he might find it helpful.

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  56. Mad Scientist*

    I can’t help but wonder if Arnold is my former coworker who left for a new job around four months ago… the timing checks out… it was infuriating to deal with as a coworker! I was surprised he managed to find a new job before he got fired.

    Reply ↓

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