my mom answered my phone and yelled at my boss, staff grumbling about sales team’s “perks,” and more

by Alison Green on February 28, 2025

It’s four answers to four questions. Here we go…

1. My mom answered my phone and told off my boss

I was very sick with Covid and my mom had to come take care of me. She already knew issues that I’d been having with my boss; he’s a jerk. I learned later that he called to ask a question that he could have easily found the answer himself. My mother answered the phone and yelled at him because he does a lot of abusive things and keeps us working on days off, even vacation, not to mention when people are very sick. He is the type who can dish out the punishment or rude comments but cant handle it when you do it back even the slightest. Anyway, she told me what she had done.

Once I returned to work, I was written up and told my mother is not to answer my phone when anyone from the company calls because they chip in $50 a month for the phone. This is not their phone. Does this warrant a write-up? Do they have the right to say my mother cannot answer my phone?

No, this doesn’t warrant a write-up. If you call someone’s personal phone, you risk someone else answering it and conducting themselves differently than an employee would. But there’s no official arbiter of what you can and can’t be written up for; there’s only common sense, and your boss clearly doesn’t have it.

The question about whether they can say your mom can’t answer company calls on your phone when they pay part of the bill … eh, probably. If they consider that your work phone, then sure, they can say you’re the only one who can answer it (hell, in a lot of states they could say that without paying any of the bill). It’s a dumb response from them, though.

But also, your mom should stay out of your work life and not tell your boss off on your behalf! I get the impulse, but she doesn’t have the standing to do that and she ended up causing problems for you at work.

At the same time, though, I kind of love her for defending her sick kid. Is she up for telling off other people’s bosses too? She’d probably be in demand.

2. Staff is grumbling about sales team’s “perks”

I manage a team of salesmen who call on very large customers. Typically we are responsible for signing 5-10 contracts that generate a lot of meaningful revenue for the company. Because of the size of these contracts and the nature of our customers, we attend a lot of off-hours events to host our customers — things like dinners, concerts, and professional sporting events. As a manager, I try to be flexible with people’s schedules to accommodate all the hours they end up working outside of the normal 9-5. However, I’m running into problems with other departments complaining about my team’s availability or implying that we are more focused on partying than working. This typically happens when they want to connect with someone on my team but that person is using comp time; for example, they had a 7pm dinner the day before so I don’t have them come into work till 10 am but production wants to meet right at 9 am.

I understand why there might be a perception issue to say, “Oh, John is coming in late on Monday because he has to spend all Sunday at the suite of an NFL game,” but these events truly are a work day for us. Attending with a customer and trying to have a meaningful business conversation can be a pretty high pressure and stressful thing! We might have a beer at the game but it’s much more about making sure the customer has a great time then it is about actually enjoying the venue. Typically my team has to provide a recap of any conversations that they had and how contract negotiations are advancing. It’s also not fair to expect them to spend a weekend day or a weeknight working and then go back to a regular schedule.

My boss understands this but when I’ve tried explaining it to other departments (typically run by people at my level but without sales experience) I’ve had varying degrees of success. I’ve also set up a couple times a week like Monday afternoons, where I can guarantee that my whole team is working at the same time so these departments can schedule meetings. That has helped manage the scheduling issue that we are having, but it’s made the grumbling worse because they feel like we are being unreasonable. Is there a good way that I can explain to my peers outside of sales that we aren’t being divas, we just have a weird work schedule?

Can you stop describing the specifics of what they were doing when they were working off-hours and instead just say “he had to work all day Sunday” or “he worked until very late last night”? If you mention dinners and games, people are going to focus on that to the exclusion of the “work” part.

You might also try talking with the other managers one-on-one about the pattern and ask for their help in figuring out how to resolve it; sometimes when people are enlisted in solving a problem that they themselves are part of it, they start to get it more. And you could say, “While the events can seem like fun ones, that’s still time that my team has to be ‘on’; they can’t relax, they need to be focused on the client, and that’s time that they can’t be with their family or friends or handling household responsibilities. Since we can’t ask people to spend all their waking hours furthering the company’s business interests and they need to have time off as well, what would you suggest?”

But some of this is just a perpetual issue between sales and non-sales people, so your measure of success shouldn’t be “there is zero grumbling about this.”

3. Can I use Discord messages to confirm that my unreliable coworker told me she ignores my emails?

Right now, I am building an argument to my boss to change the workflow of a specific task to address a problem I have with a coworker (Clara). Clara’s supposed to be doing this task on my behalf. (For internal policy reasons, I’m not allowed to do it myself.) However, Clara is not reliable at doing this task. Over the years, I’ve made a thousand tiny adjustments to my work to make it as easy as possible for her, and she often still makes errors, which only affect me and are for some reason my sole responsibility to identify and (tell her to) fix. I’ve been stewing silently about this for years, because I thought I was just being a hater, frankly. But at my next review, I’m going to urge our boss to see if I can be given the authority to just handle this task myself.

Since all of the measures I take to help Clara and make up for her errors are individually very small, I’m compiling documentation to explain everything I’m doing and confirm that, collectively, they consume a lot of my time and energy — much more than just doing it myself. One item I wanted to include was an email from several months ago, where Clara asked me to indicate importance in the subject line of emails to her; I send out a lot of notices to the whole building, so she mostly just ignores messages from me and sometimes misses important ones. However, when I received this email, it made me so blindingly angry — considering everything else I’m already doing — that I trashed it immediately without responding. Now that I’ve decided to talk to our boss about it, it’s gone from the face of the earth.

But I have the annoyed Discord messages I sent to my partner the day-of that confirm that this email once existed. They don’t say anything spicy — essentially, “Clara just straight-up admitted to me that she doesn’t read my emails” with an air of frustration — and nothing rude, hostile, or profane. Do you think it would help or hurt my case to include these? If including them is a bad idea, do you have any alternate suggestions? Even if I had the original email, would it have been too petty to include, anyway? Clara’s otherwise very nice and definitely isn’t acting maliciously, so I still feel insane for actually complaining about this.

Don’t include the message you sent to your partner about it. It’ll come across as petty, and it puts the focus on your frustration more than on Clara’s behavior. It will also seem odd that you’re proactively trying to come up with outside “evidence” that the email existed, when no one has asked for any, and it risks putting a more adversarial lens on the whole thing.

In most reasonably healthy work environments, you could simply tell your manager what was said and assume that you’ll be believed. (If your word isn’t enough, there are bigger problems that would dwarf this anyway.)

4. Manager said we can’t talk to HR without telling him first

Is it legal/ethical for a supervisor to tell their team they cannot go to HR without telling him and letting him set the appointment with HR?

This comes after a coworker went to HR for two reasons (supervisor issues the entire team is having and a request to move departments). Today the team came in and was told that they cannot go to HR about anything without telling him first what it is about and then he will set an appointment with HR if he deems worthy/necessary.

I am thinking it is not illegal, but not exactly ethical and definitely not in the favor of the team as the supervisor will not set up appointments if he wants to hide things and there would retaliation.

While it’s not illegal on its face, it creates legal liability for your company. What if someone wants to report harassment or discrimination from your boss? They have to go through him first and he’ll decide if they get to talk to HR about it or not? What if he decides they can’t?

It’s very unlikely that HR would be okay with this rule if they knew about it (in part because companies need clear and accessible reporting procedures for harassment and discrimination to effectively defend themselves against lawsuits in those areas), so someone should break the rule to tell HR (and when doing that, should point out that they’re doing exactly what they were told they couldn’t and will need HR’s assistance in ensuring they’re not penalized for it).

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

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  2. RedinSC*

    I ran the fundraising part of a non profit. I’d often hear some of the same comments as LW2. “Oh, they’re the party people”

    Well, yes, we host events, go to events and work some days up to 14 hours to make sure we have all the money the organization needs in order to fulfill our mission.

    I don’t think this would work in a business operation, but we’d invite our colleagues to events, to help us set up, help us clean up, help us host people. Once folks got more an of idea of how much work went into these things, the comments settled down some.

    1. JM60*

      As an introvert, “wining and dining” potential donors/investors/business partners sounds like work.

      In separate conversations, I’ve trumpeted the position that time spent at mandatory socializing needs to be treated as time worked. The fact that it might be fun is irrelevant. It’s time/effort spent on something that’s in the employer’s best interest (or that they believe is in the employer’s best interest).

      1. gregor_vance*

        I am an introvert that has to travel for work, and a lot of those travel destinations are very exciting destinations. Usually with great dining options and night life. Even before I was a father and people would say, “Oh, it is so amazing you get to go to Nashville for a few days.” It is! And it is also a lot of work! 11 hour days spent entertaining and networking, followed up by late night dinners and we HAVE to go get a drink at this bar! I come back spent! And still have the day-to-day work that I have to catch up on. And I miss wrestling with the kiddos every day.

        Not to say woe is me; some of these events are really cool and I get access to things that not many others do. Just that when I have to do something it loses its luster, especially if I have to be there.

        1. Polyhymnia O’Keefe*

          I do some freelance work as a tour manager for youth arts (think: your high school band trip). It’s the same thing. I get to go to some cool places! But it’s a lot of work, and I’m also in charge of the safety and wellbeing of multiple minors, as well as both the artistic and travel experience. I love the gig so much, but it’s definitely not a vacation, even if I’m in a vacation destination.

        2. Princess Sparklepony*

          I used to work in the music business. My partner would accompany me to “free” shows until he said no thanks. I asked why, he said it’s not fun since you are working it. The working involved going backstage before and or after the show to see if the musicians needed anything – promo materials, more cds, etc., and sometimes checking that a car is arranged for a radio interview in the next few days. Nothing too onerous, but the ex thought it was just way too much.

          Although I have developed an aversion to going backstage after a few years in that job. I hate backstage. I like free passes and not waiting in line, but backstage is just annoying – great show, you were on fire!, never better, just a lot of happy talk no matter how the show was.

      2. ENSCC*

        As an introvert, “wining and dining” potential donors/investors/business partners sounds like work.

        Yep, like LW2 says, that’s because it is work, regardless of personality type.

      3. Wendy Darling*

        Wining and dining potential customers did always seem like work to me, and I’m glad I don’t have to do it. The “perk” I always had beef with was when I was at a company that was brutally cutting costs in every other department but still did the sales kickoff in the Bahamas. I, an engineer, couldn’t get my broken laptop replaced, but they could somehow find the money to fly the entire sales team to the Bahamas and put them up at a resort instead of having the sales kickoff in our office. Rude.

      4. Grumpy Nerd*

        Whew, yes. I didn’t get into software development to have to whiten my teeth and spend hours a week with people I don’t want to talk to. I’m so glad the sales folks exist, they can do whatever they need to do and leave me out of it!

        I’ll be over at my dimly lit desk making sure they have something nice to sell.

      5. OMG, Bees!*

        As an introvert, wining and dining potential donors/clients/etc sounds like hell to me and I wouldn’t even want that type of job to begin with

    2. bamcheeks*

      I was wondering about offering opportunities to people in other teams to attend sales events too. Not a lot, just one extra space every couple of weeks or so. I feel like you only have to do one or two “stay til eleven being cheerful, friendly and positive to clients” before you realise how knackering it is.

      And hey maybe you’ll accidentally find an engineer or a product designer who turns out to be *great* at sales too!

      1. UKDancer*

        I think this would be really good. Let them see what it’s like and how hard work it is (and it definitely is).

        1. JMU*

          I am not sure this would work for engineers. (I can only speak from my experience of being an engineer and talking to other engineers. There is possibly some overlap with e.g. teachers but I cannot speak with authority for other professions.)

          The engineer’s view is not that sales is easy, but that it is unbecoming. They think a salesperson is a mix of a cashier and a con artist; both jobs are objectively difficult, but are not socially respectable. Having the engineer do the job for a day or two will not change that perception.

          Why is that? I believe engineers (1) buy things in a way that makes salesperson useless _to them_ in many cases, and (2) assume the typical customer resembles them enough that a salesperson must useless to _the company_.

          For most people, the process that leads to buying something goes thusly: I have a need. I take some steps to fulfill that need (e.g. ask other people how they did). At some point during those steps, I might get into contact with a salesperson. This is a great thing: that person has technical knowledge about my need, good communication skills towards a lay person, and an array of solutions to choose from. Sure, that person has an incentive to upsell me, to hide certain unwelcome characteristics of the product and so on. I will be wary of that, but on the whole they are an ally.

          For an engineer, the process goes differently: I have a problem. There is One Correct Way to solve it: looking up information about it, the available types of products and so on. I gather as much information as possible. I try, if possible, to determine the optimal solution to solve the problem; if not, I still limit the acceptable choices to two or three. Then, I go to buy the product. Any salesperson that does more than answer my queries precisely and concisely, wait in silence while I ponder my options (ideally no thinking on-the-spot is needed, but sometimes new information comes through), fetches the product from the rack and scans my credit card, is at best wasting my time with chit-chat, at worst trying to scam me into an inferior or more costly option. He is at best an inconvenience, at worst an enemy.

          If you have never met someone with the “engineer mindset”, you might believe it is a caricature. I assure you it is not. The best evidence I can offer online is to look at a website that sells to engineer-types.

          As an example, go try to buy a capacitor on uk dot rs-online dot com. The site offers more than 20 (!) filter tabs to sort more than 50000 products by dimensions, capacitance, and the like. It looks awfully designed (in fact, it is masterfully designed, given its customer base). Now go to any respectable real estate listing site. It looks slick and fancy, but does it include filters for “accessible by wheelchair”, “HoA rules forbid pets”, and other dealbreaking criteria? (Probably not, because nobody buys houses “the engineer’s way”, without extensive on-site visits and involvement with a real estate agent.)

          1. FromCanada*

            I am married to an Engineer – and I think you just helped me see my husband a little clearer and just helped my marriage. Some of this I knew – its always been pretty evident, but the stuff around research and the one “right” way to do things / buy things has driven me absolutely crazy for a very long time and we talk past each other on it and both end up really frustrated. A light bulb went off – I didn’t know I was coming to AAM for marriage advice – but apparently I am today. Thank you!

          2. Rocket Raccoon*

            As an engineer married to a salesperson… yeah, it took me longer than it should have to realize that what my husband does is a) necessary and b) something I could never do.

          3. sixteen tabs of dish towels*

            This is very well put, and as an engineer who used to work with data on B2B purchasing behavior I can confirm that this is a thing in IT and dev departments. Which speaks to Alison’s point that zero grumbling is unattainable. For LW, it might be useful to compare notes with other sales or sales-adjacent teams to identify parts of the company that are just Like This about sales so they can focus on the more persuadable folks.

          4. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

            And on the other end, you have people like my in-laws who are all in marketing and/or sales… they’re convinced that R&D and engineering are useless for companies because as long as they do their jobs they can sell anything.

          5. Wendy Darling*

            I’m an engineer and I don’t disagree but I think this is a shade reductive. My concern about salespeople is that I find that 1. a lot of them aren’t actually that knowledgeable about the thing they’re selling (I have been shopping for a car lately and don’t get me started about car salespeople and car features — they pretty often tell me stuff that is verifiably false, e.g. “yes this car supports wireless android auto” so I start it up on my phone and discover that it only supports wired android auto, whoops! The *good* ones actually admit they don’t know instead of telling me what they think I want to hear.) and 2. sometimes they just lie. I had a Toyota salesperson tell me the Prius hybrid gets 100mpg (the EPA ratings for the Prius hybrid are 52mpg highway and 49 city, and EPA ratings famously trend higher than real-world performance). I told him I was pretty sure that wasn’t true, and he insisted that it was. I did not buy a car from him.

            Ideally salespeople WOULD have technical knowledge and be able to help me find the best solution for me so I don’t have to sift through a bunch of tech specs to find my ideal solution! But I have found them so historically unreliable that I feel like I have to verify any claim they make myself, so it’s actually less work to just get the info myself.

            I’m also bitter because I did a bunch of time as basically a solutions engineer for companies selling B2B technology products and so I got stuck holding the implementation bag for some of the absolute madness our salespeople told clients we could do. Unfortunately (and I have no idea if this is normal) salespeople were not evaluated at all on whether we actually retained the clients they signed longer than the initial contract, so there was literally no downside to selling a client the moon — it was only customer success that faced consequences if we didn’t deliver. It sucked.

            1. Tenebrae*

              Yup. Not saying anything about this particular company but I’m sure plenty of engineers have experience with bad salespeople.

              E.g. I have an engineer acquaintance who was just recently grumbling about a fairly low level salesperson who had gleefully promised a product they didn’t make to a client and whined that they should just make it anyway when confronted (“making it anyway” would have required an expensive factory retrofit, new licensing, at least five years and the associated millions of dollars).

            2. metadata minion*

              Oh god all of this. And the requirement to upsell just makes me want to throw my hands in the air and leave the room. I’ll ask if there’s any computer that doesn’t have Wonderful! Shiny! Feature! that I find actively annoying and they’ll explain why WSF is great, actually, why would anyone *not* want it??

              1. Freya*

                OMG when you start the conversation by saying that factors A, B, and C are important to you and the salesperson spends all their time being effusive about factor Z that I don’t care in the slightest about…!

                (Like AI on my phone. I do not care for it. I want equal or better camera quality than my 5 year old phone, equal or better processing power, and expandable memory (when you take too many videos at an event and fill up your expandable memory, you can swap that out much much faster than you can check and delete things from the built in memory)! AI saying ‘let me add that trip to your calendar!’ is useless because the airline already gave me a .ics file to do that!)

          6. lanfy*

            Apparently I have the soul of an engineer. I am genuinely unable to understand why anyone would approach a purchase in any other way.

            1. Peregrine*

              Me too! I’d never thought about it this way, and I definitely don’t have engineer brain in most ways, but this matches me perfectly. And I do wish Zillow was set up with more of an engineering mindset!

            1. Just a suggestion*

              Engineering brain in the body of a real estate agent here: Engineers can be hell to work with because they can be so focused on very minor details. I’d like to screen things for the features people want, but it doesn’t work that way selling resale houses. Nor when selling production-built new construction. Nothing contains all the features. (You can hire a designer and do custom design – it will take 3 to 4 times the amount of time before you move in – compared to production built, about 12 to 20 time more compared to re-sale) and cost 1.5 to 2 times as much). The truth is, picking a house is like picking a spouse – most people get SOME of the things they envision, but ultimately chose something they fall in love with – irrationally. I’d love to be able to screen for everything and say ” What you want is not available in our market this week – I’ll get back to you when it is.” But that doesn’t work – they miss out on a great opportunity that they would have loved, because of something that they thought was a deal-breaker, but ultimately . . . wasn’t. (The reasonable ones let their spouses pick the 2 or 3 best options and then choose from those.)

          8. Liz Bender*

            You know, there are engineers working in technical sales roles; I used to be one of them. Typically I was involved with R&D teams helping them match up possible solutions in our product suite to the problems they were trying to solve. Our product suite included ~10 thousand products, and could be combined in infinite ways. Sure, eventually you have a conversation about why they should by x from you instead of someone else. But that’s more haggling than cashiering ;) And it takes a lot of creative problem solving and quick thinking on your feet to navigate those conversations successfully. Used a lot more of my brain than when I was working R&D in a lab myself.

          9. Roonil Wazlib*

            Married to an engineer and … yeah. To his credit, my husband generally starts from the premise that if a person working in a job exists, there is a reason. He may ultimately conclude the reason is unnecessary or BS but he doesn’t start with that thought, which is unique among engineers (and among a lot of people! frankly).

            Still remember when we were looking for a house. Me- entering the bathroom with a squeal of delight at the aesthetic tile. My husband, looking up – “there’s no exhaust fan by the shower, only in with the toilet.” Which was important information! Just never the first thing anyone else would notice.

          10. I should really pick a name*

            And there are some engineers who understand and respect what good sales people do.

            And realize that assuming there is only One Correct Way to solve a problem is a very limiting approach.

          11. Not an engineer, but an engineer mindset*

            I don’t know that it’s so much an engineer vs. non-engineer mindset, though that’s part of it, as a “do I trust salespeople” mindset. Your description of how “most people” view a salesperson is:

            At some point during those steps, I might get into contact with a salesperson. This is a great thing: that person has technical knowledge about my need, good communication skills towards a lay person, and an array of solutions to choose from. Sure, that person has an incentive to upsell me, to hide certain unwelcome characteristics of the product and so on. I will be wary of that, but on the whole they are an ally.

            That’s certainly one view, but there’s definitely another, weighting the pros and cons differently:

            At some point during those steps, I might get into contact with a salesperson. This is an annoyance: that person has an incentive to upsell me, to hide certain unwelcome characteristics of the product, to distract me from evaluating the product on my own, and so on. Sure, that person has good communication skills towards a lay person, and an array of solutions to choose from, but overall the misalignment of incentives is too much to overcome.

            You’ll notice that I left out the “technical knowledge” bit, since that’s one where I do think engineers and other technically-minded people differ – either it’s a situation (like clothing, furniture, etc) where technical knowledge is irrelevant or one where my own technical knowledge, after I’ve done some looking around, likely exceeds that of the salesperson in a typical retail environment.

          13. andy*

            The real reason is that sales lie about what our product do and how fast we can make them. Then they put us under pressure and blame us when we can’t do the impossible.

            Sales are seen as dishonest, because they are based on telling customers we have 5 llamas in a barn ready to be sold, while there are in 3 rabbits.

          14. kalli*

            That would likely be just as practical as ‘I will research and get the thing that ticks the most boxes for the lowest price’ because there need to be that many types of components and people need to be able to find the exact one so the end product is reliable, and they are in stock or not in stock, and have a set cost; the real estate market essentially you get to the point where ‘it doesn’t matter if this thing ticks all the boxes for the customer, the seller gets to choose based on their own reasons’ and you spray offers until a seller likes you, and then you modify it to get the rest of what you want (over time, if need be). Having a filter for things vanishingly few properties have and which will probably need more/different/better added anyway when you can plainly identify from the included pictures (and infer from a lack of pictures), especially in markets where there aren’t 50k different properties available anyway (e.g. in my city of 1.5m people there are 6k properties available, in total – filter by price and commute distance and you can genuinely be left with 20 of those just from those two criteria). Why even have someone responsible for all that data entry, over and over and over when each listing would need it individually entered (whereas the components would need entering once and then maybe if the sku changed), when nobody would even need all those?

            More likely, people who don’t tend towards impulsivity and are detail oriented are attracted to a field where detail and thought are rewarded and required.

          15. Sportsball*

            The engineer’s view is not that sales is easy, but that it is unbecoming. They think a salesperson is a mix of a cashier and a con artist; both jobs are objectively difficult, but are not socially respectable

            Cashiers aren’t a socially respectable job? That’s uh…quite a Take there. I don’t know that the above is a “this is how all engineers think” and more of a “this is how misanthrope with a shortsighted, rigid mindset thinks.”

            1. metadata minion*

              “Cashiers aren’t a socially respectable job? That’s uh…quite a Take there. ”

              “Not respectable” I think isn’t quite the shade of meaning I’d put on it, but it’s certainly not a socially valued profession, despite being, y’know, ubiquitous and essential.

        2. Liz Bender*

          As a salesperson myself, I would not want to invite someone with no skin in the game and no sales experience to a high level meeting over entertainment with a client. That sounds like on top of closing or maintaining business with a client I now how to babysit a colleague that resents me? Cool. All to help someone in a different part of the business feel like they aren’t missing out on what they perceive to be a perk of my job without taking on any of the responsibility?

          1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

            Yeah, it would be like an engineer being told to have a sales person assist them with the final product build and smoke test of an important release in order for them to respect me. Even the request itself is a bit insulting.

            1. Just a suggestion*

              In sales myself and I can’t agree with that! It would be more like letting them observe the smoke test and explaining how the choices that went into the final product were made, so they can use that info to overcome client objections. I think taking production/design people along for the ride – assuming they can conduct themselves appropriately with clients – is an excellent idea: they see what the salesperson does, the client is impressed/pleased you think enough of the client’s smarts that them might want to ask a technical questions/ and the design/production person get that random ballgame/nice dinner out of it. Everyone’s horizons are broadened, everyone’s respect for the others is increased, company’s stock goes up! win-win-win!

      2. Cabbagepants*

        This is brilliant, and depending on the industry, occasionally having a rep from the non-sales side could really enhance your reputation and reinforce that the sales talk is backed by the people who will be fulfilling the sale.

      3. Just a thought*

        I did this a couple of times. I brought account support people to an out of town 3 day conference were clients and prospective clients attended

        After 3 days of 8am breakfast with clients workshops client lunch and dinners, they realize it wasn’t a party having to be “on” that much time

      4. By the sea*

        My brother was the engineer in this situation, attending a sports event in a suite at a venue that is almost always sold out. Years later, he still talks about how completely miserable it was for him. (Zero interest in sports, not a small-talker, doesn’t drink, very active and hates sitting still for long periods.) Probably not the right guy to invite.

        2. KateM*

          If before this, he was grumbling all the time about salespersons having fun, then he was a very right guy to invite for at least that one time.

          1. Lydia*

            Exactly what I was thinking. The invitation isn’t about an exciting day out; it’s to demonstrate these events are actual work and not fun hang outs.

        3. Dasein9 (he/him)*

          Yep. While we do all have a responsibility to be pleasant to work with, it’s unreasonable to drop someone into a situation where being outgoing is a major skill and they don’t have any other training or preparation for it. Clients will be able to tell the employee is unhappy and it won’t be the employee’s fault.

        4. LW2*

          This is a big thing that people dont get! Most of us aren’t into the events that we are attending (at least not all the time). The customer picks the event so they always enjoy it. But if I’m trying to make a sale to a guy that loves blue grass music then I’m about to spend the night at a blue grass concert desperately trying to act like I’m enjoying the band.

          1. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

            It’s even difficult on the sales person when it an event they very much enjoy. I’m a huge football fan, but if I’m in the suites for business reasons, I can’t get sucked into the minutiae of the game the way I want to. I’m there to work, and that often means missing things I would love to experience.

      5. HonorBox*

        I can see the possible upside to this, especially if the engineer or designer can provide some detail to help a sale along. But I don’t love doing this just to prove a point. If you’re bringing someone to dinner or bringing them to a ballgame, there’s cost in that. If the person isn’t going to add anything to the conversation, it may look strange to the client to have an “extra” and if I were approving expenditures, I don’t think I’d look favorably on the added expense just for the opportunity to have the sales team prove a point.

        1. Amy*

          Absolutely. With important sales, you need to be extremely strategic about who you bring.

          I will sometimes bring a product development person or data analytics person out to an event with customers, but it’s for the benefit of the sale, not the colleague.

          And more often than not, we’re shaving people off the group, not adding to it. If you are meeting with 2-3 customers, it shouldn’t be more than 2- 4 of you. Significantly outnumbering the customer team is a usually bad look. So we often need to cut people who are deeply involved in the sale. I (nicely) cut my boss from a dinner last week because the table was going to be too lopsided between the sales team and customers.

          So sales always needs to be careful about adding extra people unless it’s a 100% a social event with no immediate business on the line.

        2. Smithy*

          I’m in fundraising, and used to go to a lot of “fancy” parties and dinners for work. For the most part there wasn’t too much complaining, but every now and then someone would really push how much they also wanted to go.

          This job was outside the US, and huge part of why I was hired was due to being a native English speaker and while a number of people at my organization also spoke English, their comfort and fluency really varied. Anyone who really made a big deal about wanting to go, my boss said that as long as they joined me on two donor meetings in English where she was also there – then she would revisit the topic. For this case, it really stressed the “on” part of the task over the party/dinner part of the task.

          And all the staff who regularly HAD to join me for those meetings were never the people who wanted to join me at the parties.

        3. a clockwork lemon*

          I agree. I’ve been the client at a handful of these types of events and it definitely is work–yes there’s a social (networking) element to them, but they’re two-drink max events and even as a client you’re expected to be on your best behavior.

          It would be pretty weird to bring random non-sales people to a client meeting if there’s not an actual business need to be there. It generally wouldn’t be allowed at my firm, both because of the cost and because deal-related information is generally treated as need-to-know until the deal is closed.

      6. Nonprofit Lifer*

        I don’t know. I’d worry that if the other staff are already coming in with an idea that ‘the sales team goes out and parties’ then they’d come into the event with an ‘I’m here to party’ attitude that could result in behavior which would embarrass or undercut the sales team.

        1. Amy*

          Ive seen so many people crash and burn over 20 years at sales events with free alcohol.

          The secret to my success in sales has always been to remember I’m at work. Nurse that one drink for two hours, maybe a second one at 2 hours but no more than that.

          Make sure you accomplish your sales goals for the dinner (for example, find out the purchase timeline and who will be on the committee.) Make sure everyone is being taken care of – the vegetarians got the vegetarian dish, the person in the corner isn’t left out, that you ask the person who mentioned their spouse was having surgery about that. Ensure the clients feel like you are really listening (and do that by really listening.) Make sure all your clients get home safely, especially if they have been drinking a bit too much. That you write down anything important that evening. That you synthesize your notes the next day. Send email thank you notes etc.

          If it feels like a party, you may be doing it wrong.

          1. The Other Evil HR Lady*

            I have mad respect for all my employees, but Sales (almost literally) pays my salary. My sales reps do need a little bit of hand-holding for certain things, but whatever, I hold their hands with a smile. They’re out there busting their butts, being their amazing extroverted selves to the benefit of the company. As an introvert, I find what they do exhausting! Personally, I do not envy them the parties (maybe that’s the introverted-me talking), and the only other people who could possibly envy that type of work would be other extroverts that think “partying” is all sales reps ever do.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              I agree sales are critical to an organization’s success, but I think most companies would fold pretty quickly if there weren’t anything to sell, or if the company got sued for major non-compliance with regulations, or if the money was all stored under a mattress and no one knew how much there was, or if no one ever cleaned the bathrooms and everyone quit in disgust.

              In my experience, most roles at companies are critical.

              1. lanfy*

                YES.

                Every time a higher-up at a company says some variant of ‘Sales bring in the revenue’ or ‘Sales pay the salaries’, all that tells me is that they have no respect for most of their employees.

                Customers buying our product brings in the revenue, but that’s a team effort. Acting like it’s all about the visible individuals at the end of the chain makes a company make *bad* decisions.

          2. Fake Name*

            Maybe this is just me, but if I was the client in this situation I’d feel taken advantage of. Like the salesperson is only pretending to be nice to me to get a sale. I’d also wonder why this couldn’t have just been an email.

            Do you ever get this sort of pushback from clients?

            1. Annie2*

              I mean, it’s business. It’s really the same as any other time part of someone’s job is to ensure you’re a happy customer – there’s a transactional element in your relationship with your server at a restaurant, your realtor, your hairdresser. It doesn’t mean there can’t also be a warm and genuine (business) relationship there, too.

            2. Allonge*

              I really don’t think clients / potential buyers are ambushed at these events, they know perfectly well why the event is organised / they got a ticket and what the salesperson is doing. It’s not a random evening when they decided to go to the theatre and suddenly, sales.

              1. UKDancer*

                Yes, I mean I go to events organised by companies we work with and I am well aware I’m not invited for the pleasure of my company. I’m there because they want something or we’re working on something together commercially. I enjoy some of them but it’s not pleasure.

                It’s like I get on well with my hairdresser and we have a nice chat about things but we’re doing it because I’m paying for a service. I’m not there to hang out with him for the pleasure of catching up.

            3. Amy*

              Some clients accept dinner invitations because they want a free dinner.

              Most clients accept dinner invitations because they have a legitimate business problem they are hoping to solve and it’s a piece of a long process. For example, they need to choose a new data system and it will involve X customizations over the next 5 years, Y trainings of staff and at Z price point. They are at a tech conference and run into one of the 4 vendors they’ve narrowed down to.

              Entertainment is often an opportunity to have more extended conversations in a more relaxed environment. And you can learn a lot about a company from how they entertain. Are the sales reps talking about themselves and getting drunk? Or is the focus on your company’s needs and getting really granular on them?

              If you don’t take away a big feeling of client focus from a company’s approach to entertainment, you should listen to that. Many complex sales with lots of stake holders are going to include a variety of interactions from email, to formal presentations, to phone calls, to entertainment, big meetings and 1:1s. It’s one more opportunity to evaluate them.

            4. LW2*

              I think clients understand that it is a somewhat transactional arrangement. They take advantage of us for the free tickets/events and in return we get some time to understand the business and the sales opportunity.

              They know that we aren’t friends but that doesnt mean we cant be friendly and have a good time.

            5. lunchtime caller*

              No client ever thinks that the meeting (run through everyone’s official work email usually, calendared by EAs, etc) is happening because someone just wanted to be nice or their friend. That client probably choosing between multiple people on their end, and is interviewing this sales person just as much over the course of the evening. They’re in the room because they already have decided they’re open to spending money on something, they’re not surprised at the ask even if they ultimately go in a different direction.

      7. LW2*

        We try to make unused tickets/suites available when possible but because they are so expensive its hard to make it a regular thing. If we are consistently using tickets on non-sales activities, our finance department would get mad at us and then we’d end up having a smaller budget for these events

    3. Schnitzel*

      I also do fundraising and do a lot of events that sound like fun on the surface—fancy dinners, high end events, lunches, etc.

      Here’s what worked for me to help coworkers understand what it’s really like.

      Each appointment is like a job interview. I have to show up on time, be prepared, be on my best behavior, keep mental notes through it all, write it all up after, and then do the appropriate follow up. If I have eight appointments in a week, that’s eight job interviews.

      This way of describing it usually seems to help the light bulb turn on.

    4. Sloanicota*

      As said in the response, this kind of thing is a longstanding issue between sales and office. I would wonder if OP could focus on some other common tension points to reduce the overall animosity: are sales people excused from a lot of the “paperwork” because they’re bringing in deals? That can be fine, but there needs to be a clear path for the people whose jobs are to get the paperwork right to get what they need. Maybe it truly has to be a meeting as soon as possible (probably not, although the paperwork people may think that’s a necessity) or could there be a point person assigned to get details via phone instead, to make sure it’s all clear and correct? Or whatever solutions might be, it might take some creative thinking.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Good point; if the schedule is causing work problems, focusing on how those work problems can be addressed (without forcing salespeople to work absurd hours) rather than general vibes may be the best way to deal with it going forward. I know I don’t care what hours my coworkers are working unless I need to meet with them/get a question answered.

      2. Bobby*

        My thought when reading this letter was that I recall my first job where the sales guys made over thrice what I did (not including bonuses) despite my role as Office Manager keeping literally everything in the business rolling on a day-to-day basis. This is a not-uncommon trend any company where you get sales. OP should consider what other disparities might be causing resentment in the company beyond the surface-level ‘sales guys go to parties all day’, and look at how they might be fixed. I’d be willing to bet it’s not *just* about sales guys at fancy dinners and concerts.

    5. NYWeasel*

      I’ve worked in sales, marketing and production at various companies and have a solid understanding of the skills salespeople need to have—I’d be terrible at that job!

      OP1 is specifically saying that the hosting events are what’s driving the jealousy, but in my experience it’s more nuanced than just that. Do the sales people get company cars to do their jobs which saves them having to ever pay for gas, insurance, etc? Do they get high commissions for bringing in revenue? If the company books a suite for an NBA game but the clients cancel, who gets to use the tickets? Do the salespeople get taken to offsite meetings in fun locations with cool “team building” events while the rest of the departments have to get sandwiches from Subway and maybe meet at the local Marriott? The perks I experienced during my time supporting a sales team were massively better than any I’ve had throughout the rest of my career, and no, I didn’t have to take client meetings or work events.

      At my current company, everyone gets bonuses for high sales, so we all feel like we’re working together. Additionally the sales team finds ways to kick some perks over to the rest of us, so we get to share some unexpected fun things once in awhile and we feel appreciated for the work we do to enable those high sales. I have no doubt that the grumbling OP is hearing is directly connected to the schedules around events, and yes, those are work, not fun. But it would be good to also look at the overall dynamics—are the other teams being asked to prepare rush materials and then the salespeople aren’t in to answer a question, for example—and see if there’s anything behind the jealousy that your team might be able to address proactively. Bonus structures etc might be out of your control, but even just occasionally throwing a “thank you lunch” might improve the dynamics.

      1. Not That Kind of Doctor*

        Also making sure that non-sales people who end up working on those rush materials after hours b/c sales had comp time can get their own comp time for it.

        1. linger*

          Also if sales are (seen as) over-promising and thus forcing others to work harder to deliver on those promises. The others need a clearer awareness of what’s involved in sales work; but that cuts both ways. The others also need to know sales appreciate their work too, which includes, at minimum, being available at reasonable hours for collaboration, but goes further.

          1. whatever*

            We are now getting into general gripes about sales vs non-sales roles when none of these things were discussed in the letter. LW seems pretty aware of how things come across, I think she would have included any of these other perks her team may get to explain the tension.

            1. linger*

              The point here is, whatever the exact content of complaints OP is getting (perceived unfairness of perks and limited availability), the fact that those complaints are being voiced is very likely to indicate a broader breakdown of trust between sales and other departments, and that needs addressing. The work is clearly not being seen as “different but equivalent in value”, as would be required for a healthy collegial working relationship. OP in their own wording does not see it that way, instead promoting the direct financial gains made by sales. (And it’s fair enough that OP is championing their own team; that’s part of their role!) But OP also does need to consider the wider context when attempting to improve inter-departmental cooperation.

          2. MigraineMonth*

            Oh god, this. I worked for a company where sales was told to say whatever it took to seal the deal, and then the engineers had to try to slap it together it in a couple of months and the customer satisfaction professionals had to deal with angry customers who didn’t want this slap-dash last minute thing.

            I remember celebrating when we weren’t selected for a contract that would have crushed the company.

            1. Grenelda Thurber*

              I’ve seen this a lot in my years at a techy company. I can’t count how many times I’ve said or thought “You told them WHAT??” It isn’t ultimately good for the company, but I guess it gets those sales commissions numbers up.

              1. MigraineMonth*

                In defense of the salespeople, the “tell them anything to seal the deal” message was straight from upper leadership, who treated sales more like leeches than rainmakers. I don’t think salespeople got commissions, just a huge amount of pressure from management to make the sale or get fired, and their department was incredibly understaffed.

              2. Judge Judy and Executioner*

                I knew I had to look for a new job when multiple software salespeople told outright lies to prospective buyers. These weren’t one-time mistakes but repeated in multiple calls after correction. Years later, before I took a job at a different software company, I vetted this specific area.

      2. Sloanicota*

        Yep. I was in my organization’s version of sales. You do get treated more like a rock star and even told you’re the one keeping the whole organization going. Companies need to figure out way to mitigate this so that you don’t get one department with a huge ego and/or 95% of the organization that’s resentful of one department. While still obviously incentivizing the sales team to keep pushing.

    6. LaminarFlow*

      10000% agree! Many moons ago, I was a pharmaceutical rep, and we had giant budgets that we were required to spend on essentially wining & dining doctors so they would prescribe our medication, which made the pharm company more $. I bought a box at the Super Bowl a few times, many court side NBA/MLB tickets, Wimbledon seats, tickets to the Masters, you name it. I routinely took my clients to 5 star restaurants before these events. For a young & single person, it was pretty great, if handling the pressure of extracting a meaningful ROI from these events is easy for the rep.

      But, driving revenue with these methods meant that I was working a lot of VERY long days. The work/life balance sucked, and even if I was at the Super Bowl, I was working. Also, I was still required to be “on” at these events that could happen several times each week, regardless of if I was feeling social or not, and I still had to get all of my other work done.

      All of it wore me down, and I also started feeling icky about the whole thing, so I pivoted out of the industry. I believe the rules have changed since I left it 20 years ago, and reps are capped at what they can spend & do, which I think is a good thing.

      Anyway, the sales team in any company generates revenue, and while the events they plan or attend may not seem like work from an outsider’s perspective, they absolutely are. The revenue generated from these things is likely keeping folks at the company employed.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I mean, your last sentence is the crux of it. Sales people are often told / it’s implied to everyone that they’re keeping the whole org afloat. But I mean, good engineering and good shipping of a good product, and good customer service, are all essential to success. You could say none of that matters without sales, but you can also say no salesperson would be successful for long if the product sucked.

      2. lanfy*

        It’s when companies behave as though the sales people are the *only* people who generate revenue that resentment starts to foster.

        They’d be hard-put to generate revenue without the other teams providing something for them to sell.

        1. Not In Sales*

          I once worked in IT and completed an internal project with a sales team (I was leading the testing of some newly developed software for them). After the project was over, I was sent a fancy electronic item through the internal mail, with no explanation. I contacted the person who had sent it to ask if it had perhaps been misdirected, and was told that it was my gift for completing the project, and *of course* everyone involved gets a gift after completing a project. This was the first time I’d worked with a sales team, and although I’d been working in the industry for almost a decade at the time I had never received an expensive reward for just completing a project before!

          I mostly thought it was funny, but I also couldn’t believe the sales team was used to getting things like that just for completing projects, something that certainly never happened in the IT department! (Although, tbh I kind of felt like I deserved a reward, because directing testing on that project was more frustrating than herding cats. Gift or not, I was so glad to be about to leave on a year-long maternity leave the next time a project involving that sales team came up!)

        2. Grenelda Thurber*

          Exactly. All parts of a company are required to produce, sell, and support a product. (I’m assuming that companies almost never keep unneeded organizations around, could be mistaken)

      3. DJ Abbott*

        You’re right, pharma sales got so out of hand the government cracked down and did not allow them to do any type of gifts or outings. As it should be! It should be about what’s good for the patients!
        I worked as a sales consultant for a disease management program in 2004, and I was shocked when the front desk person at a medical office bluntly told me the doctors wouldn’t talk to me unless I bought them lunch. She offered me a list of their preferred restaurants.
        The documentary series Dopesick gives a glimpse of this sort of thing in action.

    7. Quinalla*

      Yes, I don’t do sales, but I did and still do work travel. The folks at my office that didn’t do work travel were always jealous that we got to go to cool places and eat food for free. Trying to explain to them the difference between a work trip and a vacation was maddening, they refused to understand that flying in, getting a rental car, driving directly to a jobsite, eating lunch with clients (so you are on), driving back and turning in the rental car, eating dinner at the airport and flying home wasn’t fun or a vacation :) I would occasionally have extra time because flights sucked and might go walk on a beach or see something interesting, but most of the time I saw the airport/drove/and the construction site. Unless you were somewhere like DC, you rarely drove by anything interesting.

      I very much understand that sales stuff is not the same as going to a game or dinner or whatever in your free time. I do it occasionally at work and there can be some fun, but it’s mostly work. And if you are exhausted from being on all day and have to go do this too, ugh. Kudos to the OP for giving comp time for these things, a lot of companies really don’t.

      1. RedinSC*

        Right, you miss your family, you’re eating breakfast, lunch and dinner either alone OR with your clients/contacts, etc. You’re on, you’re at airports (lets face it, airports aren’t fun) and it’s just really not fun.

    8. Jennifer Strange*

      Yup, fellow former fundraiser here. People think we’re just partying with donors, drink in hand. They’re not seeing us staying there until midnight to clean up trash left behind by guests (because that garbage can two feet away is much too far) or keeping a calm demeanor when a donor scolds us for not giving them their favorite seat at a sold-out opening night (when the playwright needed twenty seats just for their entourage). That’s not to say there weren’t perks, but, as with many jobs, they came with some unpleasant responsibilities as well.

      1. Horatio*

        Also a fellow fundraiser – now the events manager for our entire department. I occasionally take on staff from other parts of the org who want some extra hours to work as fundraising events casual staff for us. Quite a few of them have taken a turn now and we’ve gone from some grumbles about being the ‘party people’ to cries of ‘I’d rather gnaw off my own leg than do that again!’ All it takes is one or two to realize how exhausting they are!

        (I would also rather gnaw my own leg off than talk to donors again, so I’m grateful I can leave that to my coworkers now even if it means I’m the one cleaning trash at midnight!)

        1. Ama*

          At the nonprofit I used to work for we regularly had cross department employees assist with events – and we particularly encouraged new employees to “volunteer” (they were paid we just let them pick which events worked for them) at one of each type of event so they could get a better sense of what everyone did. It definitely made it clear that even the “fun” fundraising events or the “easy” one hour evening talks were a lot of work.

    9. Momma Bear*

      I do think there’s value in people understanding the work involved. I’ve talked to some of our salespeople and maybe they went to a fancy dinner, but they were trapped for hours with a client who may not have been a lot of fun for hours. Not my idea of a good time. A trade show isn’t a vacation – it might be catching a red eye, dragging cases of gear to the booth, setting up, and being “on” for two days before packing it all up and coming home again. Doesn’t matter if the location is pretty – you’ll never see it. If there’s opportunity to make this more visible, it could help change perception.

      OTOH, some of the grumbling may be people’s own job dissatisfaction, and part of the solution might be to get managers talking to their people and finding ways to meet their needs. Is John annoyed that someone else took a half day for travel when he was told he couldn’t go to his daughter’s game? Is Sharon working overtime with not enough help so she’s aggravated when the sales team waltzes in hours after she started her day, thus delaying the rest of her work? Is sales allowed to take comp time no one else is? Find and mitigate their pain points. If sales wants people to be more understanding, they need to be more understanding, too.

    10. Productivity Pigeon*

      I wouldn’t do a job like that for love or money!

      It’s the way I feel about accountants and procurement lawyers – I’m grateful behind belief there are people who not only want to perform those jobs but also like them. It means I don’t have to do them!

      1. Productivity Pigeon*

        It reminds me of when I was a young management consultant and worked as an ”assistant”/”secretary” for the local head of our firm. (It was common to do something like that for six months to a year to learn the internal/business side of things) and I was invited to a partner dinner.

        When I first started working, I heard a rumor that the partners had access to a private wine cellar/restaurant where they could meet in complete privacy.

        Well, that turned out to be true!

        So it was me and 10 partners.
        I’ve never been more terrified. I obviously drank the minimal amount I could while still being polite and overall felt quite awkward.

    11. WantonSeedStitch*

      Yeah, I’m in the back end of a fundraising operation, and while we sometimes joke about “oh, Joe Fundraiser got to go to Fancy Restaurant with the donor and the donor insisted on buying a bottle of super expensive wine? MUST BE NICE.” But if you asked most of the people on my team, “would YOU want to do that job?” pretty much everyone (even me, an extrovert, would say NO.)

    13. MassMatt*

      Fundraising and sales are HARD, the pressure to make the deal (especially if the job is heavily or entirely commission-based, which most sales jobs are) in order to get paid is tremendous.

      I agree with Alison that LW is giving too many details on what the sales people are doing-all the other departments need to know is “she was working until midnight last night and will not be in until later today, please see ______ with any issues you have”

      I commend the LW for taking this off-hours work into account with their scheduling, too many organizations just think this sort of thing is extra and you had better be in the office by 9am sharp.

  3. Broken Nail*

    LW 3: You want to prove something you’re saying is true by… sharing a different time you said it. It just weakens the whole argument and makes you look out of touch with reality.

    1. Knope Knope Knope*

      I feel like there’s more to this story. I wonder why OP isn’t allowed to handle the task themselves already? I have a senior staff member who insists on doing work I have reassigned to an intern. It’s a task that’s nice to have but it takes time and it’s not that important. I need my senior staffer focused on other things. They keep inserting themselves into the process to “fix” it. In reality, I don’t need it fixed. The “errors” are so minor and inconsequential they are taking every away from much more important work. I wonder if it’s a similar situation where OP is only going to showcase they are focused on the wrong thing.

      1. Spencer Hastings*

        Segregation of duties is where my mind went — if certain tasks shouldn’t be done by the same person for internal control reasons, that could be a valid reason that LW can’t do the task herself and Clara’s inability to do it in a timely manner causes real problems for her.

        I also agree that there’s no point in sharing the Discord messages — if she tells the boss “Clara emailed me and said XYZ, but I seem to have deleted it” and the boss wants evidence, LW can probably go to IT and tell them the same thing.

        1. Always Tired*

          Right? It’s probably still in Clara’s sent messages, if they really need to investigate the claims.

          1. Jen*

            I don’t think what Clara said was bad at all! It sounds like LW3 sends a large number of emails to the entire company that probably don’t impact Clara. It makes complete sense that she’d start to gloss over them and would ask for some way of differentiating the company-wide notices from direct requests.

      2. Katie Impact*

        OP3 seems disproportionately angry about this whole situation, and self-aware about being disproportionately angry. If they’re actually catching heat for Clara’s errors, some frustration would be understandable, but passively stewing about it for years to the point of becoming “blindingly angry” over an email sure wasn’t a productive way to handle it.

        If the workflow does need to be improved, OP3 can talk to the boss about that and should already have plenty of other evidence of going back and forth with Clara to get her to fix things, which will hold more weight than this one deleted email anyway.

        1. Lydia*

          She didn’t lash out at anyone or flip out at Clara; she had a point where all her years of frustration coalesced. It’s not that shocking and nothing awful came from it. Let people feel the things they feel when they feel them.

        2. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

          Requesting a word or two in the subject line isn’t inherently offensive.

          Though on the other hand, Clara should figure out how to create an Outlook rule to automatically flag messages where she is on the To: line, which kind of support’s OP’s point.

          1. MassMatt*

            It’s Clara’s responsibility to read and respond to emails, not someone else’s to make sure they see them. This has been a basic business function since at least the 80’s.

            Clara’s attitude reminds me of students who say during a lecture “excuse me, professor, but do we need to KNOW this?”

            1. andy*

              If you send a lot of irrelevant emails, people will start assuming your emails are irrelevant.

              That is not a failure on their part, it makes them more effective at work

          2. Rainy*

            I mean, I think the thing that set LW off wasn’t Clara requesting a word or two in the subject line, it was the *reason* Clara made the request: because *she deletes all of LW’s emails without reading them*.

          3. Freya*

            My boss gets CC’d in on a LOT of emails where she needs to have the information where it will pop up if she searches for it but she doesn’t actually have to do anything. I don’t know if she did it or if she got the IT people to do it, but any email where she’s CC’d gets automatically filtered into the ‘deal with it after all the fires are out’ folder so she can concentrate on the stuff that actually needs her immediate input.

      3. Part time lab tech*

        Could be a quality issue, such as quality control and manufacturing having different management and KPIs.

      4. OP No. 3*

        This is a process I actually handle for everyone else in our subset of the organization. I’m just not allowed to handle my own documents (due to a conflict of interest policy that is unique to our particular subset), so mine are the ONLY ones Clara handles. I find it really frustrating that I’m the only person in our sub-group that has to work this hard to get their papers filed.

        The errors I’m talking about are things that have resulted in my corporate credit card going unpaid on multiple occasions, resulting in fees and cancelations that I had to pay out of pocket and sort out myself so that I could do routine parts of my job.

        1. Cohort1*

          A simpler version of your situation: when my sister was 18, many years ago, she was employed at Disneyland as a hot dog vendor. She passed out the hot dogs and put the money in the till. One day she decided to have a hot dog for lunch. She put her money in the till and ate her hot dog. She was fired. You can’t sell yourself the product that you sell to everyone else at the park, someone else needs to sell you that hot dog and they put the money in the till. It sounds like you are in what is a similar situation, just a way more elevated operation than a hot dog stand.

          1. LifebeforeCorona*

            That’s common in many places where the worker handles money and/or food. We could buy food but we had to be on our break and someone else prepared the food. It was the same process with the cashiers, they could not ring in their own purchases. Of course it didn’t stop workers from giving their friends extra fries or a double burger but the intent was there.

            1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

              Yea, the only part of that story that surprises me, having been both a cashier a few times, is that the first occurrence resulted in immediate termination instead of a write-up, warning, or other progressive discipline.

              And we played fast-and-loose with the food side of it. You could totally make yourself a mini chicken-parmesan sub as a custom order, punch out for break, then buy it from your peer and eat it all in the course of 5 minutes. I think Management didn’t care because the most obvious outcome would be a customer noticing, thinking that looks tasty, and ordering one of their own.

              1. Chirpy*

                It really depends on the place. I worked at a sandwich shop that allowed that, and a burger chain that absolutely would not let you make your own food. But even there, I assume you’d get a write up first.

            2. Media Monkey*

              yep, my daughter works in a big coffee chain in the UK, and she isn’t allowed to ring up her own lunch if she’s eating from the shop, and no one can give discounts for anyone’s food other than a 50% discount for the staff while they are working. she can’t even give extra loyalty points!

          2. Also-ADHD*

            She was FIRED on the first time? I hope they really outline not to to that in onboarding. It seems a fairly easy mistake to make unless they do. I get Disney wouldn’t let you do that, but I’ve definitely worked places (back when I was in high school and college, so maybe it’s a time period thing too and retail/food service has changed) — even corporate places — where I could sell myself stuff, as long as my till was “right” at the end.

            1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

              And having worked retail for a dozen different settings (including big box, small boutique, theme park), none of them ever permitted someone to ring up their own sale. In fact, most of them required a manager or supervisor to ring up an employee sale. Target didn’t go that far, but you had to scan an employee pass to add the discount and it wouldn’t allow the pass to match the logged in user. Nothing prevented you from ringing up your own sale without an employee discount technically, but it was against the rules and a firing offense.

            2. doreen*

              I worked places where I could prepare my own food but I couldn’t ring it up myself.(although most of the places I worked that wasn’t possible- the people who cooked didn’t also handle the register) The issue wasn’t whether my till would be correct at the end- of course it would be. The issue was whether I would charge myself for the double burger, fries and soda that I actually took or for just the fries.

            3. MigraineMonth*

              I worked at a small family-run pizza and sandwich place where the challenge was keeping non-employees from wandering into the kitchen to make their own food. The owners’ teen children and their friends, friends of the owners, former employees… they’d just come behind the counter and start making sandwiches and buffalo wings. The other employees seemed fine with it.

              At least they always rang themselves up? (Except the owner’s family, who would walk away with crates of food.)

            4. Caller 2*

              It does sound par for the course with Disney, though. They aren’t exactly known for treating their workers well.

        2. Friends of English Magic*

          For #1, I think my opinion of the sick OP’s mother would depend on how badly she “told off” the boss and about what. If it was limited to the situation at hand (ie, “She’s sick, you need to leave her alone”) that would be pretty understandable, but if it started to get into all the other ways Boss is a jerk (based off things OP had vented about in the past) then that would be crossing a big line.

        3. JediJoe*

          Have you gone to IT to see if they can recover the deleted email? If they can do that then you have the evidence you need

        4. blueberry*

          Wait, what? Your corporate credit card got cancelled and you paid out of pocket? Why? That’s the work issue you should have talked to your boss about. “Clara failed to pay my corporate credit card, and now I can’t buy widgets. How would you like me to buy widgets?” Clara’s mistake not allowing you to do your job is the major issue.

          2. Always Tired*

            Several places I have worked had the policy that if there was interest or late fees because your expense report wasn’t filed in a timely manner, it was your fault and you had to pay those, and that’s what I assume OP meant.

            Ran into a fun situation where I was doing expense reports for a team, and one guy WOULD NOT give me his receipts, so I couldn’t do his expenses, and then he would be ENRAGED when he got charged the interest. He took it well up the chain but I had receipts of my own proving I tried to get his and managed to get 7 other reports done on time for people who could actually produce receipts. The final result was he had to do his own expense reports.

            1. Boof*

              I’m curious, if the person filed /their/ part of the report in a timely manner, but someone else down the chain didn’t actually act on it in a timely manner, who would pay that fee?

        5. Sloanicota*

          Been there. But unfortunately I think you’d have more luck campaigning for someone *else* to take on the task, versus being able to approve your own expense accounts? There’s a reason for rules like this, and “Clara sucks” doesn’t negate that. (If the reason is fear of embezzlement, it’s actually going to look a bit suspicious if you make this your hill to die on).

        6. Alicent*

          This reminds me a lot of my last job. We had to handle sensitive laboratory samples and I had an assistant who screwed them up regularly. We handled these EVERY WEEK, but she couldn’t remember to spin them down, draw them off and freeze them. Three steps. I even made a chart and my boss ripped it down saying it “looked bad to clients and you should just remind her every time.” Clients couldn’t go in the lab and I was often doing other work so I couldn’t babysit my assistant. After two incidents of having to redraw samples and angering clients because I had to lie about why (it was an involved test to complete) I I finally started doing them all myself.
          Unfortunately this was a trend where the staff would do something lazy or careless and I would get yelled at by the client and/or boss about communication or that I needed to double check all their work like they weren’t grown adults doing fairly simple tasks. Nothing ever changed and I quit which was such a weight off my shoulders.

        7. Guacamole Bob*

          OP No. 3, if Clara does this work as a separation of duties matter, and it’s resulted in real work problems like the ones you mention with your credit card, I would approach it differently.

          Instead, I’d go to your manager and say “the way this task is being handled isn’t working well, leaving me with out-of-pocket expenses and making me spend significant time unraveling problems. I understand that for financial controls reasons I can’t approve my own reports. What are some alternatives? Is there someone else who could take this on instead of Clara, or could you supervise her more closely on this task to make sure it is completed in a timely manner?”

          And instead of emailing Clara repeatedly, contact your manager if she doesn’t get it done on time.

          It sounds from your letter like you’re just seething, gathering all this documentation without taking the more typical approach of regular conversations with your manager about the work impact of this issue. If the first time an employee raised an issue with me in a serious manner they came with a folder of email printouts or a spreadsheet of occurrences over months rather than just having the conversation, I would seriously question their judgment, along with what about my management style made them think that was how to solve problems.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            This is a much better approach.

            “X isn’t happening, which derails and complicates my work, and the interruption is then passed on to the business. We need a different way to make sure X happens.” With no supporting texts to your spouse about how annoyed you are about work things.

          2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

            I like the contact your manager part. Make it is his problem. If OP cannot handle the task for conflict reasons, then its not her problem to solve. It is manager’s. Right now manager is not handling it because OP is.

            Also OP, this is not a court of law. You don’t need proof beyond a reasonable doubt with a whole stack of evidence showing the pattern. Literally, you can deal with each instance in the moment. Dear boss, Clara has yet to approve my reports for this week, how should this be handled? Repeat as necessary.

        8. AlsoADHD*

          If it’s a conflict of interest policy, I don’t think you can change to doing it yourself. Can you ask for Clara to have more oversight and document by CCing others and also make it clear you won’t pay any more fees etc. That’s the paper trail you probably need. If you establish a clear escalation policy, that might free brain space and push the pain up to management.

          1. linger*

            Yep, if this is a financial control thing then OP cannot be seen as attempting any kind of end-run around the policy.
            But also, technically, under this policy, Clara would need oversight from, and to be held responsible by, someone other than OP when performing this task. THIS is what OP’s manager needs to make happen.
            The only time OP should ever have been directly involved is in training Clara in how to perform the task.
            Note also, this task is otherwise not part of Clara’s role, and she does not perform it for anyone else, so does not get much chance to improve or get faster with practice. She can’t be as invested in it as OP is; for her, it’s an odd additional task with less priority than her regular job. Maybe (paradoxically) this means Clara needs to take on more of this processing, which on the one hand may mean any issues become more visible to others, but on the other hand allows opportunities for training or improvement, and would emphasise that it really is part of her duties.
            Also, while OP probably doesn’t care either way at this stage, it makes a difference in terms of managing Clara whether the problem is just in the performance of OP’s task, or whether there is a more general pattern of Clara neglecting tasks.

          2. MassMatt*

            …but it sounds as though the way things are now, LW a basically IS a doing, or re-doing, a lot of this herself because Clara is unreliable. This is bad both from a wasted work perspective and a compliance standpoint.

        9. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          I don’t know if you’re going to get much traction if you’re suggesting to your boss that you ignore a conflict of interest policy. If I was your boss, I would question your judgment and integrity if you tried this. Instead, present your (entirely legitimate!) complaints and push the boss to resolve it somehow. I commented below that I’d start looping in the boss any time there are issues around this, in real time. With this additional context, I’d recommend it even more strongly. When you get something back with errors, reply to Clara and CC the boss, every time.

          Also, it’s BS that you paid for her mistakes with your own money. If this is an expectation your boss has, you have bigger problems than a careless coworker.

          1. Insert Clever Name Here*

            OP is answering Knope Knope Knope’s question of “why OP isn’t allowed to handle the task themselves already,” not suggesting that they be exempt from a conflict of interest/separation of duties requirement. You can be frustrated with this situation (and it’s reasonable to be so) without trying to get around the requirement.

            1. Insert Clever Name Here*

              Scratch that, I see a comment further down where that is indeed what OP is suggesting. If Clara’s incapable of doing this promptly, the answer is definitely not for OP to have an exception to the policy!

        10. Full of Woe*

          OP No. 3, I hope you were reimbursed for those fees!

          This is solid evidence of Clara dropping the ball and I would hope her boss would care that she was costing the company money.

        11. Boof*

          I think you should most definitely go to your boss with the evidence that you have had to pay out of pocket despite giving Clara appropriate notification.
          And all the things you are currently having to do to avoid further fines (presumably lots of reminders etc?)
          The answer probably isn’t that you do that yourself, because of the conflict of interest, but it is probably someone way more reliable than Clara does it.

          1. Boof*

            (also you should ask for your company to pay back that stuff if you did indeed file everything appropriately it’s reasonable to not be held accountable for someone else’s mistakes; maybe clara should pay any fines that are on her if it’s not possible for someone else to do this)

      5. M*

        From OP3’s replies in the comments, don’t think that’s the case. That said: while Clara sounds like she’s being fairly sloppy in handling this task:

        a) it sounds like it’s a one-off task for her that she’s doing for conflict-of-interest reasons and isn’t really her wheelhouse, so it’s not unreasonable to expect that she’ll need instructions, and more importantly,

        b) I’m absolutely with her on the email thing. If I get a bunch of building-wide emails from my colleague that need to be sent but largely don’t affect me, but also, every now and then, an email that’s specific to my work and sent just to me, I… think it’s pretty reasonable to ask OP to put subject lines on the latter that make it clear that I need to treat them as urgent.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Part (b) here. When most of the emails you send someone are “So for everyone in the building, here’s some info” and then every once in a while one is “Hey Falling, Can you find a llama by Tuesday please,” then it makes sense to find some way to distinguish that.

          Re: Building Maintenance
          Re: Chloe’s Retirement
          Re: A Training Video
          Re: TUESDAY Llama for Demo
          Re: More Building Maintenance

          Nonprofits have to deal with this when emailing people who might utilize their programs in some way–if I get 10 chatty emails a week from the art center trying to make me feel engaged with them, I’m likely to miss the one that wasn’t generic-to-all and conveyed information I care about, like that a class was canceled. So the arts center dials down the emailing to a frequency where people won’t ignore all communication from them. OP can’t dial down the frequency of the all building announcements, so there needs to be another way to make the “actually this is only to one person, and involves a deadline” email stand out.

        2. Spencer Hastings*

          If that’s Clara’s problem, she can solve it herself to some extent, depending on the email program they’re using. I have an Outlook rule that turns the subject and sender a different color if an email is sent only to me, for instance. If the mass emails are sent to particular mailing lists, she might be able to direct emails addressed to those lists into dedicated folders instead of her main inbox. Or something like that.

          1. Ginger Baker*

            ^Useful for anyone who has a similar situation. I use both the conditional formatting and rules to filter to folders for this exact “how to distinguish sent to just me vs mass emails” and it is super helpful.

          2. Also-ADHD*

            I think asking for a set subject line isn’t a problem. I would frame it differently than “I usually don’t read your emails” but more “I don’t do this task for anyone else, so having X as a set subject line will help me do it in a timely manner” — but then if OP does the subject line, Clara needs to do the task in a timely manner. Copy/pasting the same subject line even, or forwarding within a chain, could help both Clara AND OP perhaps and systemize the task. BUT Clara has to actually be reliable for that to work, and it sounds like she is not and also no one else has any oversight on this, to the point where OP paid CC charges for company stuff HERSELF!

        3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          While I noted above that OP needs to loop in her manager, subject headings is the easiest thing in the world to do. It takes little extra time and makes finding that email you need so much easier.

          I do it for all my work emails, whether to client or opposing counsel. For clients I just leave off the case name — because they kindna know it already. For opposing counsel its always Doe v. Smith – topic. That way I can go back and check – when did I send that whatever?

          OP you should be using subject lines on the building wide emails too. That way people can find it if they need to go back and check. For Clara it would be obvious too — her emails would have – Weekly Report or Credit Card or whatever needs to be address on them.

          1. M*

            Yup. I get that OP is finding Clara frustrating, but I would not be *surprised* to discover that OP’s sense of what Clara should reasonably need from her to do a task that is otherwise unusual for Clara isn’t entirely reasonably calibrated. Or not! But being that resistant to sticking “Monthly Expenses Report February” or whatever in the subject line rose an eyebrow for me.

          2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

            When I was a project manager, I did something similar. Anything going out for approvals had a subject line that started with FOR APPROVAL. Or if I needed them to respond to something, especially if it was urgent, RESPONSE REQUESTED. These people get a billion e-mails and I didn’t want these to get lost in the pile.

            Yes, it would be great if Clara was more diligent about this and it sounds like she expressed herself poorly. But this is also a simple request that doesn’t take the LW any real time and might help. The LW is justifiably angry with Clara. But the request is reasonable and might help.

      6. DC Cliche*

        “internal policy” makes me think either they’re not senior enough (like, only a manager can perform the task and OP is an analyst) or there’s a check-and-balance because it involves money or data. If those are the cases, I’m not sure why advocating to the manager to do the entire task is the right move.

        1. DC Cliche*

          wait, just saw OP’s comment. If it’s a corporate card, it being cancelled as a result of Clara’s incompetence it is their issue, not yours, to solve! Saying “I can’t order this because my card was cancelled” will get the situation resolved in a hurry.

      7. Delta Delta*

        Could be a licensing or credentialing issue. Example: I’m a lawyer. I could ask a paralegal to draft a pleading for me, but they couldn’t sign and file it with the court because they lack the licensure to do that.

  4. MSD*

    I’ve found that people who don’t travel for work usually think that it’s a lot of fun for those who do. Although it sometimes is, for the most part it’s not.

    1. MK*

      Or worse, when they only have to do it occasionally. One work trip a year and social work events every three months could be fun. Monthly work trips and events every week aren’t.

      1. Wanderlust*

        Completely disagreed. I have taken jobs because of the opportunity for travel, and not too long ago I left a job because promised international travel opportunities never materialized (and they had me working from home!).

        I have probably visited over 30 countries that I would not have had the opportunity to visit but for work projects. There’s two countries whose border I have crossed probably over 100 times; I’ve lost count. To be sure, little of this is “vacation” per se, but (1) I love seeing how different cultures negotiate, (2) I love getting out of the office routine, and (3) usually the employer is fine if you stay the weekend, which gives you a chance to see a little bit of the city you’re in.

        I fully appreciate that this may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but equally, please don’t proclaim that it’s no one’s.

        1. Nodramalama*

          I think you’re pretty uncommon. When people speak in generalities they don’t mean, every single person in the world thinks this way.

        2. Ellis Bell*

          I can definitely see a job holding a special allure because you get to ‘travel’ amongst different cultures, but usually, ‘travel’ in a work context is used without reference to cultures. I don’t know many people whose dream it is to spend every weekend in a Holiday Inn in culturally identical towns – or revisiting the same place over and over.

          1. Rex Libris*

            This. I’ve had periods where I had to travel regularly to professional conferences, and I can tell you that the hotel convention center in Orlando looks exactly like the one in Phoenix, which looks exactly like the one in Denver, which looks exactly like the one in Akron, and so on.

            Personally, I disliked every minute of it, and never attended a presentation or made a connection that was remotely worth the time and hassle.

            1. InsufficentlySubordinate*

              Nothing like waking up in a hotel room and having no idea what city or state you’re in until you can find the hotel address. Been there, did that….

        3. JustCuz*

          Its like long haul truck driving. Its great for very few. Most people value being with loved ones more and stability of life than being gone and in different places all of the time.

        4. MigraineMonth*

          International travel to different countries seems like it would be an exception. I think the majority of people who “travel for work” in the US have a contract somewhere else in the US and fly in and out of that same location for months at a time.

          1. Antilles*

            Indeed. Or the similar job type where “traveling for work” means you’re going to different cities but only for a day or two before moving on, so all you’re actually seeing from those cities are their airports, highways, the client’s office, and then your hotel room at night.

        5. Caller 2*

          Yes, my ex had a job where he travelled frequently to some pretty great European destinations (we were also in Europe) and he loved it. The company would allow him some time on the clock to explore the cities he was visiting, and to tack on a few days’ holiday and other flexibilities, and he got good flights, trains, taxis, hotels, and eating expenses, though. Later he worked for a different company that was a lot thriftier and he started to like travel a lot less, even though it was much less frequent.

      2. LifebeforeCorona*

        We have a popular yearly community event that requires planning 3 months at least before hand to make sure that it goes off smoothly because there are lots of working parts involved. One of the most popular draws is the local handmade ice cream. “You guys get to eat ice cream all day!” No, the last time I managed to get an ice cream at the very last minute and had to freeze it, I remembered it a month later.

      3. MisterOblivious*

        My brother told me “I get to see the inside of hotels in many interesting cities.” I don’t think most folks realize that people traveling for work are often working long days and just want to get back to their hotel room and call their family.

    2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      This reminds me of a reality check I had one time. I was talking about tour dates of my favorite artist with a friend. The tour was hitting four or five cities in my state over one week. The cities are half a day driving apart and the shows were 1-2 days apart. Oh, the crew will have time to see the city and go to X and Y destinations.”
      My friend: “the crew will have time to do laundry, pay bills, not drive and do work for a day.”
      Oh yeah! This isn’t aroad trip vacation!!!

    3. lanfy*

      I’ve travelled for work a whole two times; once to the Mediterranean coast, and once to San Francisco.

      Did I see the sights? Did I hang out on the beaches? I did not. At my exotic holiday destinations, I got to see the inside of a lot of air conditioned rooms, feel like carp from the travel and the jet lag, and I couldn’t even get a decent cup of tea. It was very frustrating.

      As an introverted homebody, I just feel pity for people whose work requires them to travel and go to events.

      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        They didn’t even allow you to have time off in the evening? Or take the whole group to see a tourist attraction or eat at a fancy restaurant? I’ve never been or even heard of a work trip that required you to work more than eight hours a day (maybe nine at the most).

        1. lanfy*

          By the time you’ve gone out for dinner, the evening’s basically gone; especially if you’re tired from spending all day working hard with strangers. We did actually eat at a fancy restaurant once, but apparently the expenses team complained about the cost!

          On the San Francisco trip me and the other guy did fly out a day early, and my boss did try to ensure we spent that extra day seeing the essential sights, but it was a bit whistle-stop especially as I was jet-lagged to heck after a twelve hour flight. It definitely wasn’t a holiday :)

          1. Elizabeth West*

            This is what it was like when I worked for a non-profit and we traveled to another city for our event. It was go-go-go the entire time, all work stuff, and we fell into bed at night and just slept. They actually let us have the rest of the week off, paid, because they knew how exhausting it was, which was a decent perk.

        2. Insert Clever Name Here*

          I don’t travel often for work, but I do occasionally. And while I really relish the opportunity (it’s different from my day-to-day! I get a hotel room to myself! no one asks me for snacks! I learn stuff!), I do spend longer working when I travel than I do on a normal day. It’s not that I’m sitting at my laptop for 9-10 hours, but here was a normal day at a recent conference:
          7:30am – conference breakfast (where I wound up sitting with some folks from my company, so we talked shop)
          8am-11:30am – conference panels
          11:30am-1pm – conference lunch (sat with people I didn’t know and was asked about how to get on my company’s vendor list) and trade show (walked around booths identifying vendors that might be interested in an upcoming bid)
          1pm-4pm – conference panels
          4pm-5pm – conference activities ended for the day so answered some work emails in my room, chatted on the phone briefly with my husband & kids, then got ready for dinner
          5:15-8:30pm – dinner with important vendor and executives from my company. While this was “social” and at a very nice restaurant, I was definitely ON and aware that the president of my company was sitting 2 seats down from me.
          8:30pm-10:00pm – continued facetime with vendor and executives at the hotel bar. Still social, still very ON (sprite with lime is excellent in these instances!).
          10:00pm – wished everyone a good evening and went to my room.

          So yeah, I definitely could have skipped the dinner and bar, but part of the reason I was approved to attended this conference was to develop my relationship with this vendor.

          This year the conference is in a place with a very well-known theme park that is one of my favorite places in the world and I will have exactly zero time to go there (unless the vendor takes us to a restaurant there which would be awesomebut 100% will not happen).

        3. MigraineMonth*

          When I traveled, it was so that I could work 12-hour shifts at the destination, usually after arriving late the night before because of flying/driving after going to the office the previous day. Not that I’m familiar with the tourist attractions in the scenic locales I visited such as Gary, Indiana.

      2. UKDancer*

        I mean some of it is fun. My job involves some travel but less than I’ve done before which suits me quite well. I enjoy some of the travel I do, especially the parts that involve travel to cities I like (so the annual conference in The Hague and the one in Hamburg are fun). I like some of the working with people from other countries because they’re interesting. Work travel has taken me to places I’d never have gone otherwise (such as Bosnia) and broadened my horizons. Sometimes I’ve been able to stay on and see the city.

        On the other hand it can be tiring, wearying and plan dull on occasion. So I think it depends where you’re going and how long for.

    4. Tiny Clay Insects*

      This whole conversation is so validating. My husband and I have a small business running small-group tours in Europe, and running those tours, while extremely cool to get to do, is EXHAUSTING. I’ll be gone from home for up to 2 months (doing multiple tours and research for other tours), and I feel like a lot of people I talk to about it seem to think it is a 2-month vacation. I then feel bad for talking to anyone in my life expect my husband anout how incredibly tired I am, how I miss friends and family, etc, because other people seem to act like I’m essentially complaining about vacationing.

      It’s wonderful to have a business we built overselves taking off, and it’s really a cool business, but I am ON as soon as I step out of the hotel room door and start seeing the guests, even informally at breakfast or whatever. So I 1000% understand why the sales team is tired, needs adequate breaks, etc., and I’m glad their manager is protecting them. At least in my case, it’s MY company, so working incredibly hard and getting exhausted is still a choice I’m making voluntarily, to benefit my own company. (So maybe I shouldn’t expect to complain, when I think of it like that…)

    5. Also-ADHD*

      I travel for work occasionally, and I find it both fun and exhausting. But I definitely take comp time if I’ve traveled over a weekend or Friday evening etc. I think the issue with sales might be — as someone upthread says — they’re often treated like the “royalty” of the company in other ways. LW is right on this, but should definitely check on company culture a bit (especially with the old-timey comment on “salesmen”).

      Like that person, I work in a function that can be within different parts of the business, and when I’ve been in Sales Enablement, you DO feel the difference. I actually prefer being in HR or Ops because of the kind of work I’ve moved up to do in my function, but I was never treated so well in terms of perks and comp-for-level* as when I designed external onboarding for a Sales team.

      *I actually have higher comp now, but at a much more senior level (Director+). I was a mid-tier IC making fairly similar amounts when I was in the Sales side, and that’s common in my function. Easy work (not sales, what I do is easier on the sales side) for higher pay and less chance of layoffs since you’re in a revenue generating part of the business.

    6. SicktomyStomach*

      I’ve done booth duty many times over the years at the major annual expo for my industry. It is exhausting. You are ON the entire time you are there – you can’t relax even in the bathroom. I’ve been approached about product info while washing my hands or doing other… less mentionable things. There is nowhere to hide, unless your team has a suite upstairs at the hotel and you are allowed to go up there. But even then, they are usually holding high level client meetings there, so you can’t really relax at all. And there are early morning breakfasts, lunches, dinners with clients and potential clients – it really wipes you out.

      1. Freya*

        Back when I was working at a place that often had a booth at these expos, and I often was the person who went with my boss to these things, one of my jobs was to wander around the show and chat to random salespeople (and get the free samples!) and if they seemed interested in what my boss was selling, hand over one of my boss’ business cards and let them know that my boss was the person to talk to and where our booth was if they wanted to drop past at any point during the expo. You’re picking up free stuff but you’re still selling!

    7. MassMatt*

      This. I’m glad I only ever had to travel lightly for a previous job, but it was more than enough for me. Airports, convention centers (which are often NOT in the best areas of town), hotels, conference rooms, etc are not how I would ever explore a new city, and the travel/event schedule meant I rarely had time to do anything. There are several cities I’ve “been to” several times but couldn’t tell you a single thing about other than how far it was from the airport to the hotel.

  5. Abogado Avocado*

    LW#4, I’m a lawyer and, regrettably, it’s idiots like your boss who keep us in business. If I worked for your employer, I would be advising your boss that he absolutely cannot insert himself in any employee’s effort to contact HR due to the great likelihood that his gate-keeping would result in the company failing to meet legal requirements, such as providing ADA accommodations, and FMLA leave, among other duties. I’d also advise him that if he continued to insist on this path, he’d be looking at many hours in remedial management training with an emphasis on reducing the company’s legal liability.

      2. Zona the Great*

        Yeah this is what I’d do. I once had a boss get very angry at me (and did it in front of our whole team) because I called the Lean (like six sigma, I think) office to find out who was assigned to my department as Lean Coach. She was incensed that I went around her to reach out to our Lean Coach. We’re encouraged to call our Lean Coaches often and directly so this was against what I had normally experienced. She really let me have it. So I immediately picked up the phone and called the Lean Coach to see if I had really made an error in calling him. Nope. He was horrified and she was written up and then closely watched to ensure she didn’t retaliate.

    2. Zelda*

      A boss forbidding subordinates to speak to HR without boss’s permission is the work equivalent of an outside adult trying to forbid a small child from telling their parents about interactions with the other adult– it’s a flag that you need to go to HR/tell parents right away. Someone who wants to keep those kinds of secrets is up to no good.

      1. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

        Bingo. I do not get along with one of my brothers-in-law, but have been mostly just ambivalent about interacting with him for the past few years. But then he told my wife he wants to see our daughter more to have a better relationship with his niece, but only in contexts that I’m not around. Like, dude, you’d have a far better chance of seeing her without me if you didn’t open your dumb mouth. Now, I really don’t trust you around my kid…

        3. Mark Knopfler’s Headband*

          There is really no good option for him there. I’m frankly pretty suspicious that he’s up to no good, based on what you wrote. If he isn’t, your brother in law has to be one of the stupidest human beings alive if he doesn’t understand how that sounded, and I’d keep my child away from him to protect her from catching idiocy via osmosis.

          1. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

            Trust me when I say that I was already worried about your last sentence years before he made this particular comment.

        4. goddessoftransitory*

          EEK. Dude, even if you didn’t mean that the way it came out? It says you are too dumb to realize how that sounds and I wouldn’t leave you alone with a slime mold, let alone a kid!

      2. I Have RBF*

        This.

        It’s a big red flag about the boss. I would take any evidence of this crap straight to HR, and ask them top stop him from trying to control who goes to HR or retaliating for talking to HR.

    3. Bilateralrope*

      Why do you threaten retraining ?

      At this point, all we are sure about is that he’s interfering with people talking to HR. That’s not a retraining issue. That’s a “this must not happen again” issue. The kind of thing that should be another step towards firing the supervisor every time it happens. I wouldn’t give him anything more than the minimum number of warnings that the law/company policies allows.

      Maybe a few company wide emails informing everyone that anyone trying to gate-keep like this is going against company policy and HR wants to know about it.

      1. misspiggy*

        I’m guessing the idea is that if you threaten managers with tasks they’ll hate but can’t justifiably escape, they’ll change behaviour faster than formal measures would effect.

        1. Always Tired*

          Partial Bingo. I am in HR. My greatest threat and my team’s greatest fear is mandatory training/lecture.

          HOWEVER, the reason for the training is 2-fold. One, the fear it strikes in the hearts of men (and women) and the documentation that if he does this nonsense AGAIN, we can point to a record of training and say, “We didn’t ignore it the first time around, dear employee, this is not a larger company pattern, but a specific person who was provided corrective measures. And YOU, manager, we can prove you know this was wrong and did it anyway, this is becoming a pattern, so now we can fire you with a paper trail.”

      2. Abogado Avocado*

        Bilateralrope, another lawyer may well see this differently. I agree this is a scenario where I would say, as a lawyer, “This must not happen again” and I’d certainly suggest a wider review of his management practices. However, I would not propose putting him on a termination path without more information.

        For-profit businesses tend to balance events like these (which is not discrimination, it’s not sexual assault, it’s not stealing, it’s stupidity) against everything else the manager brings to the table. If he’s managing a profitable unit and hasn’t otherwise exposed the company to liability, his bosses are unlikely to direct him towards the exit or even put him on a path there. Hence, more management training is a way to split the difference. And, it’s another note in the file for the next time this idiot does something idiotic but not explicitly illegal.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      There’s a saying about HR being there to protect the company, which: Yes, to prevent people doing things that leave the company open to large pay outs when sued, like forbidding anyone to go to HR.

    5. Parrhesia25*

      I’ve experienced mandates like this where it was less that the supervisor wanted to insert themselves in ADA, FMLA or other clearly HR issues and more that someone went to HR about an issue they were having with the supervisor and the supervisor was salty about it. Sometimes it was an issue that the employee had attempted work out with the supervisor with no resolution but sometimes the employee really should have reached out to the supervisor first. In the second case it is more a case of poor supervisory skill or not thinking through the implications of their instructions than actual shenanigans.

    6. about that*

      I bet the boss is overreacting to getting blindsided by a problem that should have been brought to his attention instead of being taken straight to HR.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        But the saltiness can be reasonable (Should have told boss you had a problem with Susie’s work) or unreasonable (Boss’s affair with Susie in no way jeopardizes his ability to fairly evaluate complaints about her side hustle selling off all the office’s toner).

        Saltiness because he wanted to be looped in tells us nothing about whether that was a reasonable expectation on his part. Saltiness usually goes up when the subordinate’s work-around exposes the boss as being in the wrong.

      2. Rex Libris*

        That was my thought. It’s one of the annoyances of management that some employees will end-run around you straight to HR every time they perceive any minor slight, which invariably has the effect of turning something the manager could have probably resolved in five minutes into a high level ordeal.

        You still can’t forbid employees to go to HR though.

      3. Spiritbrand*

        There are ways to convey that though without forbidding the people under you from going to HR. You can just say “If anyone has any issues, I want you to feel comfortable coming to me with them so we can solve them together.” … And then act like someone who would actually help them.

      4. MigraineMonth*

        Could be, but the overreaction is a *really bad one*. You cannot tell your employees not to go to HR without your permission and expect it not to blow up in your face.

      5. Lisa*

        I bet the boss is overreacting to getting blindsided by a problem that *he thinks* should have been brought to his attention instead of being taken straight to HR *or that made him look bad*.

        Fixed that for you.

    7. Tiger Snake*

      I suspect that really what their boss wanted to say was “Before we go to HR with problems with our coworkers, I want you to talk to me so we can try to get it resolved”.
      That makes sense when you think about how many problems escalate from what started as a misunderstanding or simple personality conflicts. It’s the very same concept of your mum saying, “Did you ASK your sister for the remote and that it’s your turn for the TV, before running to me to complain she’s not sharing?” (because so often the answer is ‘no’). When we escalate; there should be a reasonable expectation that we tried to resolve the problem first, but so often we skip that because of how we feel in the moment.

      The problem is that while that’s probably what the boss was thinking of, it’s not what the boss actually said.

  6. Bilateralrope*

    #4: It’s very telling that your supervisor didn’t mention this rule until after someone had gone to HR with complaints about him.

    If your HR is competent, they will not be happy when they learn about this. It’s the kind of thing that should make them realize that they need to protect the company from this supervisor.

    1. Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells*

      I agree. It sounds like this supervisor would double down on any decisions made or refuse to accept responsibility for a mistake. Just like many of the worst bosses on this site.

    2. Hush42*

      I am sitting here imagining the reaction our HR department would have if they found out one of our managers had said that. It would be immediately extremely negative. I am not entirely convinced that they would allow that manager to keep their job. This is such a huge violation of how HR is supposed to work.

      1. StarTrek Nutcase*

        I think the consequence would be greatly impacted by the overall value of that manager. I worked at a major research university and one professor was a known problem (ignore policies, fostered hostile work environment, hired/fired discriminately, etc). HR did nothing and even the College Dean was unable to exert control. Why? Because this AH brought huge research dollars as an internationally known expert. Other professors refused to collaborate, graduate students made deals to switch from his supervision rather than pursue legal avenues (failure to deal would have crippled their futures), and staff quickly transferred or quit (and again struck deals). This was before social media, witnesses & physical proof were problematic, and retribution from the professor & the university was not unknown.

        I lost my rose-colored glasses in that job – $$$ before morals. I (dept. office mgr.) chose to quit but was stopped only through my dept. chair using a lot of his political clout to push for AH to essentially become a one-man dept. (aka fiefdom) which meant dept. professors & staff could consider him invisible. His staff, grad. students and lab techs were left in hell.

    3. el l*

      Yeah, I can understand a reasonable supervisor hearing about either issue and going, “Couldn’t you have talked to me first?”

      But this response is so wildly out of line that I think it shines a harsh light on who they are. That’s not how this works…at all.

    4. Also-ADHD*

      I agree with Alison that someone should go to HR, but if anyone is brave enough and in a position to do so (i.e. has enough clout/power within the org), they should actually not even bypass the rule but just tell manager, “Hey, I’d like to talk to HR about this policy. Let’s set up a meeting.” I’ve been in situations like this and called a bluff, but I know some of that is a privilege thing.

  7. PanDaMonium*

    3: Don’t “stew silently for years”. If you have a half-decent boss just tell them when you’re having an issue with a coworker affecting your work. If you don’t then that’s your real problem, not Clara.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      This is why I think Clara is the red herring; the real cause of OP’s frustration is being made to feel they need proof before being listened to. I read this as OP has been communicating with their boss throughout, but has been instructed to just identify issues and tackle them with Clara even though OP has no authority over her. It sounds like Clara’s performance is being managed with the same lack of urgency being shown when OP says they need to be listened to and supported. This is what happens when managers put their feet up and instruct the little people to sort it out amongst themselves.

    2. bel*

      Yes. Been there, done that. Try having a very frank conversation with your boss. If your boss ignores you or doesn’t support you, that’s the real problem.

      PS: Fingers crossed, Clara wins the lottery and quits and you don’t see her again.

    3. OP No. 3*

      I’ve only recently come to the conclusion that any of this was an actual problem worth discussing, versus me just being petty about small annoyances. The last time I brought up Clara letting me down like this, our boss’s answer was to tell us both to be more attentive. In context, I thought that was fair, but (based on my experiences since then) I think I took it to heart way more than Clara did. But I haven’t brought it up since, because my thought was that I would probably get a similar answer while also coming across as whining about a perfectly reasonable directive. Only recently have I come to the realization that it was reasonable for me to be frustrated with Clara at all–which you’re right, IS a me problem, lol.

      1. Snow Globe*

        Unless your annual review is very soon, I’d suggest going to your boss about this before the review. There is no need to wait on something that is causing you so much frustration, and if there is any chance that your boss will hold you responsible for things not getting done, you want to get ahead of that before he writes it into the review.

        1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Agreed. Your annual review is meant to be discussing your performance and opportunities for growth. The issue with Clara will probably come up, but it’d be a bit weird to spend a lot of time during your review talking about someone else.

          Go back to your boss and say that the intervention didn’t solve the problem. Ask for your boss’ help in resolving it – this approach makes it seem less like you’re attacking Clara. How does the boss want you to respond when X happens? What should you do with Y situation?

          Consider also looping in your boss whenever Clara causes issues. This will give the boss insight into what’s going on. Reading your letter, I was a bit concerned that you might be going overboard with the evidence and that it would hurt your chances of getting the resolution you need. Instead, maybe present the most recent few issues that came up and say that this is characteristic of the types of problems you’ve been continuing to have.

      2. 2 Cents*

        Does your boss know that you’ve paid to have your corporate card reinstated and other late fees, which are clearly cost-of-doing-business expenses? If these were recent, I’d ask for reimbursement, and tell Boss that this happened because X procedure with Clara was delayed (then just be quiet).

        1. Spreadsheet Queen*

          Right? If it’s the company’s fault (and it is – assuming you submitted your details accurately and timely, Clara not doing her job is the company’s fault!) the company should reimburse you for the fees.
          I will say, however, that it is perfectly reasonable for Clara to request a particular subject heading for this task if most emails she gets from you are general information mass emails. It would be petty to resist that. (And is one more item you can point out that you do x, y, z to assist Clara in her review and that you did talk to her and she suggested the email header thing which you now do, but her responsiveness on the task has not improved…)

      3. Wellie*

        It is hard sometimes to distinguish between what is interpersonal conflict that you need to resolve on your own and what is worth coming to the boss about it, especially when the boss has been blase in the past. Nobody should be blaming you for that.

        Your instinct to look for documentation is a good one. You *should* have objective evidence of Clara’s impact on your work. Not only is it the only way to avoid a she said/she said situation, but it helps your boss, were he so inclined, document Clara’s performance issues. That said, it doesn’t sound like your boss thinks Clara has any performance issues, but remember that point for future jobs.

        It’s too bad that this one specific piece of documentation is lost. I would let that go, and take the lesson to heart never to rage delete emails. Or at least to go back undelete emails within a day or so.

      4. Ama*

        Your corporate credit card getting messed up is a big deal and honestly just laying out for your manager that part of the situation should be enough for any decent manager to take action.

    4. Artemesia*

      the issue is not your communication style — it is her failure to deliver and you should not bury the lede. You need to address that with the manager and then EVERY time Clara fails to follow through make it your manager’s problem.

  8. Perks*

    I honestly thought the complaint was going to be my sales folks get to go to ballgames, nice restaurants, etc on the company dime and others complain because they don’t. That’s the form of this I’ve encountered before, one that some of my companies have addressed by having periodic company wide outings at a sporting event or recreational venue and by sharing out extra free tickets left by vendors so a wider swath of employees get to participate. The difference is these events are seen as perks even if expected as part of the job; while some flexibility in other hours is generally given, it doesn’t go beyond the flexibility other employees would get in terms of being able to start their workday at whatever time makes sense for them. If there isn’t a scheduled meeting on their calendar at 9am they shouldn’t be dinged for not being available at 9am.

    1. Not That Kind of Doctor*

      My thought was also along the lines of, “When was the last time anyone outside of sales got a break in routine?”

      Granted my situation is not typical, but my employer didn’t just not return to office, we don’t really have an office anymore. Travel for most of us is on the order of once every other year or so if you’re lucky. Otherwise it’s typing, video calls, and leftovers for lunch. I’m actually pretty introverted, but it takes a toll.

      All of which to say I too would be annoyed if my monotonous daily grind were made more tedious because someone else was getting paid to leave the house and see other humans in person.

      1. I guess my entire company was the real work wife the whole time.*

        That seems weird to treat working events as perks.

        People get a break from the routine by taking PTO. Exactly how the sales people have to take PTO to get a break from their routine of exhausting, overstimulating events.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Yeah. I thought where that was going to go was annoyance about sales people getting to shift their schedules/comp time for working a late event but others not getting to do so. Annoyance the person had to be at the event because it’s their job? No reasonable. Annoyance sales people get comp time for working late events but other people do not if they have to stay late for a mandatory thing? Reasonable.

        2. Tiger Snake*

          The downside of Salaried comes in hard here. If you have to come in on a weekend its easy to ask for time off in lieu. But if you have to stay back a few hours every day for a week, That’s Just the Job.

          You see it a lot in companies that make and sell software, but I imagine its common in other industries too. There’s many people in the workplace work just as many extra hours as Sales. There’s just as many people that have just as much stress. But because this is simply extensions of standard worktime, the compensation is just unequal.

          Added onto it; if Sales takes a day off, and the meetings with the tech crew need to be pushed back as a result, that has an avalanching affect on how much extra time it takes to compensate. Meeting on finalising requirements being pushed back 1 day can equal 2-3 days extra work in design phase, 4-5 days in development, and then the test team has to do 2.5 weeks worth of effort in 1 week.

      2. AMH*

        “All of which to say I too would be annoyed if my monotonous daily grind were made more tedious because someone else was getting paid to leave the house and see other humans in person.”

        I’m not sure I’m understanding you here, but if you are referring to salespeople: leaving the house and seeing other humans is their job, which is why they get paid for it, and they generally work quite hard! Their jobs aren’t perks, they are jobs, and they probably feel like a draining daily grind as well.

      3. Fingus*

        that’s an odd take. they just…. have a different job than you do. that, yes, they obviously get paid to do. maybe your irritation at the tedium of your job is a sign that it’s not totally what you’re looking for in a work environment– but it’s odd to put the annoyance on coworkers who have different schedules/tasks/expectations than you do. (imagine how weird their annoyance would be at you getting paid to sit at home and have the same schedule every day.)

      5. Le Sigh*

        This sounds like you’ve got a specific frustration with your job more than anything, which I get. It’s not really fair to direct it at your coworkers.

        I get paid to travel for work, which is a break in routine, but it also disrupts my life and work routines. I’m getting up extra early for the flight out and working 10-12 hours/day. And when I come home, I will need to catch up on laundry and house chores, not to mention all the day-to-day work for my job that I couldn’t get done because I was traveling. I’m also introverted, so being “on” for days on end exhausts me.

        The company isn’t sending me places as a reward, it’s because it’s part of my core job function. I like traveling and took the job knowing this came with it, so it works for me, and if I can take a few extra days to sight see, I will — it’s a perk, of course, but I consider that a tradeoff for the time put in and disrupting my life all week. I do my absolute best to keep to my deadlines and communicate with coworkers, but I’m also not going to work 50-60 hr weeks.

      6. I Have RBF*

        If you want to get paid to leave the house and see other humans in person, get an in-office job.

        I, for one, have a lot of pity for people who have to do events with clients at all hours of the day and on weekends. I would consider that hell.

      7. biobotb*

        Sounds like you need to find a job that pays you to leave the house and see other people in person. It’s not like your coworkers made you take this job that keeps you at home and that you dislike so much.

    2. MsM*

      Yeah, but it sounds to me like nobody else is getting the flexibility they need in their schedules because everything has to be planned around sales’ availability. In which case, it might be politic to suck it up occasionally, designate someone to make the 9 am meeting, and let them make it up at some other point while someone else covers the next all-hands conversation.

      1. whatever*

        Nothing in the letter is suggesting that. The one detail LW included was that people are mad they have to wait an hour to contact sales because they’re using comp time.

    3. el l*

      I think the key word here is “availability.”

      If salespeople are persistently difficult to get time with for normal updates, that’s a problem. They should also use calendar do others can plan ahead to talk.

      That said, If other departments expect “of course you’re available!” at 9 when they had to work late, that’s not a reasonable work/life expectation on sales. If you need to talk to busy people, plan ahead or risk disappointment.

      1. Miss Woodhouse*

        LW did say that they have set aside several hours a week on Mondays where the sales team will always be available for meetings. If this isn’t enough time for the other teams, that can be a conversation, but it does sound like the manager has tried to address the availability side of the issue.

    4. LW2*

      We do occasionally open up these events to the non-sales team but I think that has actually made the perception worse. Sometimes we will have unused tickets or suites so we use it as a fun social opportunity for people on the team that support us without any clients present. But since that is the only time they see the suite, they assume that its always a fun social event and miss the point about how different it is with clients there

      1. Perks*

        Interesting. It’s been helpful at the places I’ve worked where this type of resentment existed. I’ve not encountered the “they’re not available when I need them” component you’re experiencing.

  9. Jasmine Clark*

    LW1, it would be great if you could come back in the future and update us! Your mom should not have done what she did, but to be fair, your boss totally deserved it and I’m sure his feelings were very hurt, lol. I hope you can soon find a better job with a kindhearted boss!

    1. Cody Edwards*

      I can. That’s just the begining. There been other questionable write ups. I sent a story in several years ago about my boss convincing hotel staff to open. my room to see if I was there. Because I didn’t answer the phone while training a newhire. I mean, he c ould have called the store I was working at.
      Shoot it’s been. a hard ride to handle. 10 plus years and it ended this February 4tth.
      I’ll make this bullet pointing.
      2022 company deducts 150 a month for chosibg to not get vaccinated and hide it in a medical charge, no record of it.
      I grumble about it multiple times eventually quitting. They convince me to have a zoom meeting. Here they tear me down and write me up. No where does it mention I had quit.
      Later in year I educatrr myself about salary threshold.
      Jan 2023 in a text I inquire with my boss what my classificationis or please direct me.
      He doesn’t says it’s for people with an education, then says don’t go to HR. I’d have a target on back and get fired. So I dont.
      hip replacement surgery #2 August 2023
      Sept 14tg 2023 I get a return to work 20 lb restruction. He tells me he doesn’t have work for me convinces ne to go right back and get a new one with 40 lb restriction. This cancels my medical leave claim I paid for. Back to work full time. within 18 days.. fast forward 1 month.
      There was a harrasment complaint apparently. My boss was handling it and said I’m good, work said I was good. Ultimately I really was. There was a write up and I asked if this was an admission of guilt. They shrugged it off as nothing.
      April 2024 switch us to hourly.We work uncompensated OT.
      Sept 2024 someone blows whistle. HR contacts each person to investigate. Whem called I see this as an oppertunity to inquire about the salary thresold. Ultimately they paid the OR and salary. Roughly 40,000.
      I let HR know he told me not to inquire and anout several other things that are bad.
      December 2024 attempt to get me for harrasing a newhire. Fortunately she would only text and I was able to prove my innocence.
      January 2024 trained 3 people and kept one. On a timesheet I wrote onky part time and long distance. I had another store this guy could wotk at much closer and him and I discussed it. I didnt want to trsh his rep so they wouldnt challenge me hiring him later. This was a thursday.
      We can come and be my boss.Come up with a plan for me to get the rest of my hours because they’d been scheduled.For about thirty two hours about the previous month. Also tells me to take it easy just ho to store up north and keep it a short day but claim 8 to get 40 for week.

      Sunday morning, the day of the plan.He calls and says what’s the plan. After 2 other calls as I getting ready .. I dont answer and call him once driving. he asks me.What’s the plan?
      And there was a mix up he wasn’t counting in some of the hours that I had worked and told me to just use some sick time to get my forty hours and send an email to hor asking them to apply it to that.
      Tuesday Feb 4th terminated for falsified a document, wouldn’t listen to any explanation. I was polite and said. Well thanks for the experience I’ve gained working for you. I guess we’re done I’ll log off now. This was on zoom.
      Im thinking it was retaliation. Afterall my boss said I’d have an X on my back and get fired. That’s what happened OR maybe partly I was costing them too much for medical. I forgot to add Jan 2025 I hurt shoulder at work. claim denied 2 weeks later fired.
      Thinking about this logically as if it were someone else and no emotions attached. I feel like this is a lawsuit. I was with them from Sept 2014 to Feb 2025. Just dumped. I have a duplex I’m renting Ineeded extra space to store all the demo kits, we have a high turnover due to low pay. I could go on and on. Thoughts? Sorry for typos.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        My main question is why you remain in this guy’s employment? To use Alison’s oft used phrase: your boss sucks and isn’t going to change. You’ve already quit once, why go back and stay there?

      5. juliebulie*

        Please talk to a lawyer. I can’t really tell if there’s anything actionable here, but this doesn’t sound like competent management and their explanation of the rules about exempt vs non-exempt are not really accurate. So I don’t think they know what they are doing, and there is a good chance they have broken the law. I hope you have relevant texts, emails, etc.

      6. kalli*

        if you want to pursue a lawsuit speak to a lawyer and stop posting online. Ideally one for your rejected workers comp claim, asap, as your dispute window may be running out, and one for the employment issues.

        If you were storing stuff at home I’d also consider raising with that employment lawyer your employment status and reviewing your pay again with a mind to ensuring you weren’t in a sham contracting arrangement.

        But that’s what lawyers are for.

      7. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        I really can’t follow this. You mention “eventually quitting” in 2022 but then lots of things since then; did you quit the job, or quit grumbling? None of the rest makes sense if you quit the job, so I’m going to assume it’s that you quit grumbling?

      9. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

        You don’t have a case here, from what I can interpret from this. Also, way to gloss over the multiple harassment complaints against you.

      10. merida*

        My friend, please find another job. I believe literally any job – like even working at a gas station or Kmart or whatever your has while you work on finding something in your field – would be better than the hell you just described. So much dysfunction and choas and lack of respect for employees there. For me, my boss callously calling me while I was very sick and then getting written up for my mom answering would have been the last straw anyway in a mediocre job I didn’t like – even with none of the other Really Bad things you mentioned.

        Do you get paid a million dollars a year? Or have amazing benefits or something? What am I missing that you’re still willingly working there?

      11. RagingADHD*

        I don’t understand why there was supposedly a target on your back to fire you for years. If your boss wanted you gone, you’d have been gone a long time ago.

        I also don’t understand how a Zoom exit interview after you quit, where they were rude and insulting to you, somehow turned into you agreeing to stay and get written up?

        Or why there were multiple accusations of harassment. Even if you had texts to show there was a mutual flirtation, a trainer should not be flirting with the person you’re training.

        This sounds like ten years of a royal mess, and the sooner you put it behind you and start over, the better.

        1. Sportsball*

          I also don’t understand how a Zoom exit interview after you quit, where they were rude and insulting to you, somehow turned into you agreeing to stay and get written up?

          Glad I wasn’t the only one confused by that. You can’t “write up” someone who no longer works for you and if the OP was no longer working there as of 2022, why in the heck did they go back???

      12. Mutually Supportive*

        This sounds tough. It’s hard to follow exactly what has happened but it’s clearly been difficult for you.

        It’s probably worth talking it through with an employment lawyer who can help you work through what happened and advise whether there’s any way they can help.

      13. JayNay*

        I came to the comments already wanting to ask LW1 why you’re staying at a job where your boss loses his temper and asks you to work on days off. Your comment just confirmed this.
        I didn’t read all that, but if you’re writing paragraphs about your bad treatment in an advice blog comment section, it really is time to quit.

      14. The Other Dawn*

        I’m so confused by this comment.

        Do you mean you quit in 2022 and your employer basically said, “Nope, you’re not quitting. You’re stuck here.” And you just…said okay??

        Also, you have surgery and go back to work with a 20lb limitation, but your employer says they won’t accept it, then they force you to force your doctor to change it to a 40lb limitation and your doctor says, “No problem! Your boss knows better than me, an MD.”

        And what’s the deal with supposedly harassing a new hire? Are they accusing you of sexual harassment? Discrimination? Something else?

  10. Martin Blackwood*

    #2 – Yeah be less specific. But at the same time, pay attention to the reasons people need to book time with your sales reps. I’m in production, though theres a coordinator layer between me and sales. It’s possible that, while maaaybe their question could wait for monday afternoon, then that eats up buffer time in case some machine goes down, someone gets food poisoning, etc. Depending on what production’s doing, sourcing materials, scheduling machine time, etc as soon as possible makes their lives way less hectic. So if you could sit in on some of those meetings, talk to the people who need to meet with the sales reps the most, and try and find some patterns.

    1. Disappointed With the Staff*

      IME companies where sales *isn’t* connected with production have many other problems. But connecting production to the sales side is also useful, if somewhat more difficult.

      Threatening engineers with having to do sales is often effective. “oh yes we’d love to have you on the booth at the conference in {popular holiday destination}. You’ll do three 14 hour days mostly talking to people then fly home”. I found booth work for a one day conference to be ample. Or just get the factory staff out helping set up for a trade show, that’ll learn ’em.

      1. andy*

        I dunno, as an engineer these are not threat and you just goof off most of the time in the trade show. They are long day, but an engineer on it is neither under pressure nor under stress. You are away from the family and your engineering duties wait for you, so then you are can get really overworked while sales people pressure you to be fast.

        But, the trade show itself is not exactly punishment and is more of sought for fun change of pace.

        Maybe if you stopped thinking about engineers in pure stereotypes and started to listen to concerns they have when they ask for meetings and answers, the relationships in company would be better. They are not asking for meetings because they would enjoy those meetings that much, they need something they are not getting.

        1. Texan in exile on her phone*

          I have never gotten to work a trade show where I did nothing but goof off. I was on my feet all day answering questions and being nice and then I had to go out to dinner with customers after. It was exhausting and I hated it. Oh – and our shows were on the weekend and I got neither OT nor comp time.

        2. Disappointed With the Staff*

          I’m speaking as an engineer, albeit a pretty stereotypical one. But then I’m also speaking as someone who took “represent the company at a trade show booth” seriously and did it to the best of my ability. Which was hard work. But as you say, if you goof off any job is easy, you just have to hope that that’s acceptable to your employer.

          1. Polaris*

            It is…definitely a LONG day. Not quite a trade show, but when you have to be the face and voice of your employer at an all day thing, then maaaaaybe get an hour to shower/freshen up and then go wine and dine or otherwise do more things til midnight, wash rinse repeat for three days? Yikes. Just yikes.

          2. Also-ADHD*

            A more extroverted engineer type (my husband is this) would genuinely enjoy and find it to be “goofing off” for a day even while taking it seriously. Because it’s FUN for a day or two, and he doesn’t get to do that kind of socializing that much as an engineer. Of course… my engineering husband became a client trainer of sorts because he was feeling isolated as an engineer. (Still works remote, and he loves that, but he wants to talk to people even though he likes engineering.)

            I think all socializing might feel like “goofing off” to people in some jobs, because it’s a break from the routine. With the sales staff, it IS the routine. And, of course, if someone would prefer to go into sales, they can usually find an opportunity to do so! Sales is a high churn field, and while good jobs can be harder to get, you can usually find a sales job if you want one badly enough.

        3. A. Lab Rabbit*

          If I sent you to do a trade show so that you could learn how much work they are (and they are a LOT of work) and found out you were just goofing off the entire time and did for a “fun change of pace” rather than to promote our company, I doubt very much you would have a job much longer.

    2. L-squared*

      That’s great and all. But if someone is out late on a Sunday working, they should be able to take their comp time Monday morning if that is convenient for them.

      If the issue is the salesperson is taking this time at the last minute and their calendar isn’t up to date, that is a fair gripe. If their issue is their comp time isn’t “convenient” for the other department, its not

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Yeah, I thought the letter subject kinda misrepresented what was going on here underneath it all — people sound mostly mad that they can’t reach the sales team / can’t get info from them in a timely manner. The bit about the perception being that they’re more focused on partying than working strikes me not as jealous or sour grapes but misplaced lashing out? While I’m sure it wouldn’t solve 100% of the problem, I’m betting that the staff back at the office who need info from the sales folks would make far fewer of these comments if they were actually getting what they need.

      1. whatever*

        And here you are making assumptions about this situation based off your biases. Where in the letter does LW say her sales staff are dropping the ball on providing info to other staff, or that deadlines are being pushed back because of their comp time. Shockingly, it’s nowhere.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          I feel like you’re definitely misreading my comment, but I was talking specifically about this paragraph:

          However, I’m running into problems with other departments complaining about my team’s availability or implying that we are more focused on partying than working. This typically happens when they want to connect with someone on my team but that person is using comp time; for example, they had a 7pm dinner the day before so I don’t have them come into work till 10 am but production wants to meet right at 9 am.

          So Production is having trouble connecting with Sales and that’s causing problems for Production because the Sales schedule means they miss meetings. Presumably the meetings they want to have are for information sharing / updating things that impact Production’s own workflow.

          1. Aldvs*

            At face value, the way I read that comment isn’t that Production is having a hard time connecting with Sales; it’s that Production is having a hard time connecting with Sales at Production’s preferred time. We’re talking about a Sales team member not being available for an hour, not a whole day or not responding to requests.

            Would the complaint be the same if the Sales person was already engaged at 9am on a client call when Production wanted them?

      1. WhoCares*

        Yes. But on that note if an employer doesn’t pay any of my personal phone bill they are not telling me who can answer it. It’s not my work phone.

        1. Database Developer Dude*

          LW1 said that work pays $50/month toward their phone.

          That’s reason #1 why I wouldn’t ever accept a stipend towards my phone. If work wants me to have a work phone, they can give it to me and pay for all of it, and I’ll only use it for work related stuff.

          1. OMG, Bees!*

            It managed to work out for me once for work paying towards my phone plan, but the boss was more reasonable, and it was back when you had monthly minutes. Work only paid for an upgrade so that work (and a few other numbers) could have unlimited minutes, as the other option was I wouldn’t be able to answer calls.

            Tho, as you said, I wouldn’t do it now.

      2. Ginger Cat Lady*

        How is mom supposed to know which calls are work calls? Serious question, as a mom of an adult who was once hospitalized with a drug resistant infection for a few days and left her phone with me asking me to answer it and update any friends who called so she could better rest. She was feeling so terrible she didn’t even want her phone with her because it kept ringing! So when it rings, I just see a name, and I don’t know all her coworkers by name. Is Jill a friend or coworker? What about Jim? Is he the boss? She only ever calls him “my boss” so I don’t know! And some of the calls I answered were from coworkers, and I did have to be firm with them that she was NOT going to work from the hospital bed, even if they sent a messenger over with her laptop. They were pretty pushy. I refused to tell them which hospital she was in so they didn’t show up! I didn’t “tell them off” but I did have to push back pretty hard. I can totally see where this is not as clear cut as some might think.

        2. Jenesis*

          Like, suppose LW1 had followed the boss’s advice, put all her work contacts in her phone as “Work,” didn’t let anyone else pick up for her… then let it go to voicemail because she had already called in sick and her lungs couldn’t hold a coherent conversation at the time. 100% bet her boss would be giving her crap about that too.

          The problem is with the boss, not the phone.

      3. I Have RBF*

        No.

        If I am indisposed to the point I can’t answer my own phone, I’m not going to say “Don’t answer my phone” to someone helping me out. They have no way of knowing what’s work, what’s a doctor, what’s insurance, what’s spam, what’s a friend, etc. Nor would I expect them to.

  12. Saturday*

    For #3, “I send out a lot of notices to the whole building, so she mostly just ignores messages from me and sometimes misses important ones” – are the notices things that you need to tell everyone about but that are only relevant to some people some of the time? I ask because I get a lot of FYI messages from certain emails, and I do often skip over them because most of the time they don’t pertain to me. I can kind of see why she might want your other emails to be marked important. But the bottom line is… it sounds like it would be more efficient and better all around if you could just do this task yourself, so maybe you can just focus on that in your message to your boss.

    1. OP No. 3*

      You’re right that a lot of my messages don’t have anything to do with her; but I also receive similarly broad messages from her and our other direct coworkers that I still quickly open, just to make sure. Again, it’s a really petty thing on its own (and a request I wouldn’t even mind that much usually) that really bothers me in the broader context of things I already have to do to make sure she does this particular task.

      My concern is that I’ve asked once or twice before to take this on (without mentioning any of my greivances with Clara), with no luck. It’s possible that my grandboss just won’t budge on it, but I want to make a strong case for why it’s causing difficulties for me to NOT be authorized to handle this task myself. But you’re right, that my personal offense at this email subject line request is probably not as relevant as it feels in my heart lol.

      1. Morning Reader*

        OP1: I hear you on your frustration but the simplest thing to do might be to do as coworker suggested and use a strong subject line (or different colors, or flashing lights, if you have email settings for that) when you send her something that is a priority for your task. With the deadline right in the subject. “OP’s required paperwork: deadline March 3. Priority 1”
        Other suggestions:
        A) ask boss to assign task to another, more reliable coworker,
        B) Track coworker’s process on the task the same way you do for others’ paperwork that you process and followup with coworker in other ways besides email to prompt her (e.g. walk over to her desk, call her, message her, maybe even use the group text? Like “hey all, I finished submitting everyone’s thingamagig for this year. Coworker, how’s mine coming along?”)
        C) print out the email and leave it on her chair,
        D) use Pavlovian training techniques to reinforce whenever she does do the task correctly or promptly. I recommend a small chocolate.
        E) if she falls behind and there are extra costs like late fees, submit them for reimbursement also; document these and other costs and use that documentation when you request (A) with your boss

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I was also thinking along the same lines as (A). Maybe Clara isn’t the only/best option to take care of OP3’s paperwork. Also, another suggestion for the list:

          F) Split the process more evenly between OP3 and Clara/someone else. Right now, OP3 handle’s everyone else’s paperwork and Clara just handles OP3’s paperwork. I can see that leading to a situation where OP3 has a good system for processing this paperwork because they do it routinely, and Clara does not have a good system because she does it infrequently. If OP3 handled about half of this process and Clara (or someone more reliable per option A) handled the other half, both people would do this process with roughly the same frequency and could use the same system for this process.

        2. Claire*

          I agree; it sounds like Clara already suggested the simplest and easiest solution to this problem. It takes a split second to click the “high importance” button when sending an email. OP, it sounds like you are taking it personally that she doesn’t always read your mass emails, and so you immediately rejected her suggestion for how to quickly solve your problem.

          1. Buggalugs*

            I think part of it is though LW has kept having to make small adjustments to suit Clara being able to do this easier instead of just being able to hand it off and know it will be done right and correct. If every task now needs 15 things done to make it so Clara will actually get it done and do it right it’s not just this one thing it’s all of it combined.

      2. hbc*

        It sounds like the reason for the separation of duties is pretty solid, and there’s no way they’re going to be all “Oh, we didn’t realize how difficult Clara made things, so we’ll just go ahead and ignore this conflict of interest. Please don’t abuse it!”

        Honestly, in your manager’s position, I’d be so annoyed that you were failing to take my “no” for an answer that I’d have a hard time registering any of Clara’s failings. I would rethink the purpose of the meeting–you can show how much of a problem the current set up is and then try to come up with some solutions that *respect the reason you can’t do it all.* Get IT to set Clara up with an auto-filter sending mass notifications to a folder? You do the Clara step for a colleague while they take over the Clara work for you? Because the solution you’re proposing is a non-starter.

        1. Reba*

          Agree, the task going to OP will not (and should not) happen. You want to talk to your manager about solving the Clara problem or moving it to someone else…not breaking the company’s very standard ethics rules which could get a whole lot of you in trouble! Your boss can’t agree to that.

          But stress the credit card problems, paying out of pocket being unacceptable, and how much time it takes away from your other work to have to mop this stuff up.

      3. Ginger Baker*

        Ohhhh. On the problem-solving front…why not take this as the perfect moment for that otherwise ridiculous situation: the immediate phone call. Send email, dial phone “Hi Clara I just sent you the latest report. Can you please take a look now? I need this submitted by Friday. Do you see the email…? Ok great”. Followed by a phone call Thursday “checking to make sure this will be done by Friday!” And then another call(s) Friday. Is it annoying and tedious? Yes. But if it becomes more annoying to deal with your constant phone calls versus just doing the task right away: that’s your win right there.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          It doesn’t have to be an immediate phone call. If you sent something by email and haven’t heard back in two or three days, I think it’s reasonable to Slack message or even, yes, call them on the phone if it’s time-sensitive.

          OP3, I understand that you’re frustrated with having to do follow-up on this task, but approving your own expenses just isn’t going to happen. Making your follow-up more effective (putting “BY FRIDAY” in the email header, calling instead of emailing, etc) *is* a reasonable solution, and presenting an email requesting it as a “smoking gun” is not going to go over well.

          OP3, from the letter, you know you’re overreacting to this issue. Can you maybe sit with this and figure out what’s really going on? Why did you pay for the credit card fees out-of-pocket instead of asking for the company to pay it? Why don’t you feel that you can bring issues to your boss without court-worthy documentation? Why are you taking Clara’s suggestions for getting timely responses as proof that she is deliberately ignoring you? Why do you think that the conflict-of-interest policy should be waived for you?

      4. Insert Clever Name Here*

        Honestly, if I’m your boss I’m going to ask if you’ve done the very reasonable thing Clara asked — indicate that the certification email (or whatever) is different than the other emails you send her! You wanting an exception to a separation of duties requirement because you can’t be bothered to mark an email “important” or whatever would not go over well.

        I get that this is frustrating and you’re just at the point where you’re realizing this is a legit issue, but the first thing you should be doing is that simple request! If it falls through again, highlight to your boss “Clara asked me to mark this ‘important,’ I did, I reminded her, and it’s still late.” Even at that point you shouldn’t be asking for an exception, but for someone other than Clara to be handling this task.

        1. M*

          Very precisely this. I hadn’t realised OP was asking for the separation of duties to be *waived* – that’s not gonna happen. There’s going to be a reason that’s in place. Consequences for Clara failing to do things promptly, or even moving the task to someone else? Those are things OP can plausibly push for, but only if *they are already doing the baseline sensible things necessary to problem-solve*.

          I get that OP’s frustrated, but ultimately, if you’re the usual expenses processing person (or whatever), and for separation of duties reasons someone who doesn’t usually handle expense approvals needs to approve *yours*, then yeah: you are going to need to set them up to do that task easily, because it’s not a task that’s routine for them in the way it is for you. Clear email headers, reminders and easy-to-reference instructions are all pretty reasonable requests, if that’s the scope of what Clara is asking for (which isn’t clear from what we’ve got from OP, as far as I can tell. It’s possible Clara’s got some other expectations that *aren’t* reasonable, but there’s nothing so far to indicate it).

        2. MassMatt*

          Mark “important” is nonsense, most people who use it IME use it for every email they send. If everything is marked important then nothing is.

          I’m flummoxed that you think it’s up to the email sender to make sure recipients do something as basic as read their emails. Working adults should have this skill and not require follow ups. Clara is careless. She not only doesn’t read/pay attention to emails, she often makes sloppy mistakes the LW has to expend time and energy correcting.

          This is a manager problem.

          1. Insert Clever Name Here*

            Meh, in my experience (incredibly email heavy job with both internal and external people), something marked important is rare and 80% of the time it actually is important when marked so. Also, if someone tells me they need me to mark something important so they see it, I’m going to do that for their workflow regardless of if I think the email warrants it or not.

            It is absolutely up to Clara to read her emails, but a smart working adult removes the possibility others have for hiding behind excuses. OP’s been making tons of tiny changes, her manager has told both of them to “pay more attention,” Clara asks for a flag on the emails — just mark the damn thing important and see if it changes anything. If it doesn’t, it becomes “look, I do everything Clara asks and it makes no difference please give this task to literally anyone else.”

            Or sit on your hands and feel superior about not marking things important, get your card cancelled, and do nothing. Shrug.

            1. MassMatt*

              ‘… her manager has told both of them to “pay more attention,” ‘
              This is the crux of the issue. Clara is terrible at this aspect of her job, and the manager is lazy and blasts generic stuff to both of them vs: actually dealing with the problem employee (Clara).

              I lament the many hours I have lost in old jobs where I was pulled into meetings where a bad manager was too lazy or cowardly to deal with an individual bad performer and instead spoke in generalities about paying attention, coming in on time, etc and the only person who was guaranteed to NOT agent the point is the person who was causing all the problems to begin with.

              I think Clara should be on a PIP. For some reason you think it’s LW who needs a scolding for not telling Clara to read her email.

  13. andy*

    Do the other teams get answers and support they need? In companies I worked for, sales were selling stuff we did not made yet. When there were not sufficiently available to tell us what it is exactly they promised, massive issues happened few months down the line. Mostly caused by customer not getting what was promised.

    You focus on availability afternoon Monday, bit maybe there is reason other teams complain. Or ineffectivies caused by these delays. No one schedules meetings with sales for fun. It is not exactly pleasant or seeked situation. Mostly because they tend not to care about other teams. They want more contact with you, because company needs to function.

    Solution can be more written info. More proactive communication. Maybe even more time overall dedicated to giving other teams what they need.

    1. Cinn*

      I was going to comment something similar about what the interactions between the sales team & other departments are like apart from the grumbling about hours. In my experience the sales people who promise the world and then expect the lab to deliver it without getting their input or the ones who say they need the data by Friday because of an important customer meeting (and you & boss triple check its crucial that it’s definitely the next Friday) causing you to work extra hours that week to get it all done and after, when you ask how the customer meeting went, they admit that actually it wasn’t for another few weeks… They’re the ones who other departments quickly lose patience with. The sales people who actually show respect to the other departments tend to get the respect back.

      I’m not saying that’s definitely happening here, and maybe it is just frustration from teams who can’t flex their hours when they need to stay late one day to come in late the next morning. So I agree with Alison to stop naming the events and just say they’re using time in lieu because of work commitments. But maybe think about other potential causes of friction too..?

    2. Cinn*

      I was going to comment something similar about what the interactions between the sales team & other departments are like apart from the grumbling about hours. In my experience the sales people who promise the world and then expect the lab to deliver it without getting their input or the ones who say they need the data by Friday because of an important customer meeting (and you & boss triple check its crucial that it’s definitely the next Friday) causing you to work extra hours that week to get it all done and after, when you ask how the customer meeting went, they admit that actually it wasn’t for another few weeks… They’re the ones who other departments quickly lose patience with. The sales people who actually show respect to the other departments tend to get the respect back.

      I’m not saying that’s definitely happening here, and maybe it is just frustration from teams who can’t flex their hours when they need to stay late one day to come in late the next morning. So I agree with Alison to stop naming the events and just say they’re using time in lieu because of work commitments. But maybe think about other potential causes of friction too..?

  14. Stepurhan*

    LW3. You may have deleted the email, but if it was sent through a corporate system, it is almost certainly accessible by HR/senior management on the company servers. So, if you really need to prove that email existed, then it can be proved without you bringing an external message into it.

    Is there a way of distinguishing the emails that you need Clara to respond to from the general building emails? Could you include something at the start of the subject to make them easier to spot? Clara, knowing she expects to receive important emails from you, should be checking. Making it easier to spot those important emails removes her excuse that she misses them among the other emails you send.

  15. Cordelia*

    LW3, I’ve got to be honest – I often skim or ignore emails that are sent from a particular dept where I work, because they are to the equivalent of “the whole building” and are rarely relevant to me. If there is something that this team specifically require from me, they do indicate that in the subject line – I assume they know that these all-office emails are often not read. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Clara to ask you to indicate priority level in her emails to you. Being “blindingly angry” about this is an overreaction.
    Definitely don’t include a Discord message to your partner as “evidence”, that would be very odd and unprofessional, and make it more likely that your bosses dismiss your concerns as a personality clash, or a “you” problem.

    1. OP No. 3*

      In our office–where multiple of my direct coworkers (including Clara)–send out these kind of general building-wide emails, no one indicates importance in the subject line for the specific ones. Personally, I open all of the emails I get from my direct coworkers, even if the subject line is obviously not for me, just to be sure; in an email-heavy job, I figure that’s just part of it. It’s a petty thing on its own, but in the broader context of things I have to do to make sure she does her job, it felt disrespectful that it was being asked of me specifically. Like I have to do all this extra random stuff to make sure you do this task at all, but I can’t even rely on you to look at my emails? I know nothing was meant by it; but straws, camels.

      But you’re correct. Ultimately my fear is that this whole thing will come across like a personal problem anyway, which is why I’m so anxious about compiling evidence to prove that I’m frustrated about something real. But the email thing is probably not useful to that end lol.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        Is this a job role thing? It doesn’t sound like this is her usual job so the chances of it falling off her to do list are high, but she’s trying to find ways of keeping in mind that it’s high priority for you. Rather than sending her emails, or in addition to, could you put deadlines etc in her calendar in the same way as you would a meeting? The title of the meetings could be “two weeks to paperwork deadline” and “Please email confirmation of completed paperwork to OP3”. Set them to repeat and then you’re done! Sure, she could do this herself, but I would just put them in there anyway and see if it makes a difference. I would say: “Hey, I know my emails get lost, so I have put some reminders in both our calendars as well.” It’s another thing to show your boss, that you have done everything possible.

      3. ecnaseener*

        Yeah, the email thing is not going to be useful. Even if you had the original email, it would mainly just demonstrate that Clara was making a good-faith effort to improve the system you have with a very reasonable, two-second solution.

        Compile the examples of her actually not handling your requests in time. Leave out the evidence of Clara admitting that she sometimes misses your requests, it won’t strengthen your argument and might just dilute it. (Also, this compiled evidence is to have available if your boss wants to see specifics. Don’t lead with “please look at this big dossier I put together,” just give the bottom line, X out of Y requests to Clara in the last year have been missed.)

        1. Guacamole Bob*

          Yeah, I was surprised that Alison didn’t address your last point in her response – big dossiers are usually not a good approach in a case like this. They’re for legal matters like patterns of harassment, and for managers to use in documenting PIPs and such. If someone came to me with a dossier on this kind of issue, my first questions would be a) why didn’t you come to me with this business problem sooner and in a more normal way, and b) have you had a conversation with Clara about the big-picture problem and strategized with her about the best format for reminders and such?

      4. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        I totally hear you on the straw and camel thing. Your frustration is entirely reasonable! The challenge is trying to put aside that frustration to come to a good resolution.

        As Pastor Petty Labelle said higher up, if you’re not meant to be doing this because of a conflict of interest policy, you probably shouldn’t be involved to this level anyway. Would other staff be this involved in reviewing the reports you prepare for them if there were issues? What do you think would happen if your boss became responsible for oversight of this with Clara? Rather than having to fix things yourself, your boss would be the one doing it. Would that make sense or cause more problems than it solves?

        I feel for Clara as well, since it sounds like this is something she’s doing off the side of her desk and may not have received the proper training for. Are you aware of any training she could be required to take to help her make a lot fewer mistakes?

        Also, is there any opportunity to pair with another sub-group in your organization such that you would do your counterpart’s report and they would do yours? That way, you’d have someone doing it who was very familiar with the process.

    2. Beany*

      Yeah, the Discord exchange is evidence of nothing, except LW3’s frustration at Clara at the time. Crucially, it doesn’t prove Clara did or said anything at all.

      (I do wonder whether the original mail from Clara is really lost forever, though. Depending on the size of the company and how the IT admins run things, there may be a long-term backup of mails that have been scrubbed from individual users’ mail clients.)

      1. Calamitous ORTBO*

        I don’t think it will help to have the email. So Clara admitted she doesn’t read every single email she gets? That’s unlikely to be a firing offense. Clara requested a clear, specific action to make sure she doesn’t miss these emails. Did LW do it? Has it helped? Those would be my first two questions as a manager upon seeing that email exchange. If the answer to the first question is no, I’d tell the LW to try doing it and see. I think getting permission to approve their own expenses is a total non-starter and LW should stop approaching it from that angle.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          Yeah the fact that Clara is showing self awareness and communicating is not really a gotcha, or something that needs to be proven. It might add to OP’s argument if it’s referred to lightly “I’ve had communications from Clara that my most urgent emails sometimes get lost in the crowd, so she asked me to highlight important emails to help her keep on track. Which, I have, and I appreciate her trying to find a solution to put this more on her radar, but it implies this isn’t really compatible with her main responsibilities”.

  16. Amy*

    I’m a sales person with a pretty heavy travel and weekend / after-hours entertainment schedule.

    While it’s important to not burn out your sales team, I’ve never worked at a company where the focus was on making up personal time on exactly the next day. For example, if we entertained on Sunday and there was an important 9am meeting on Monday, we’d almost certainly attend the 9am meeting. But then maybe take a half day Tuesday or Friday. Or have taken it the Friday beforehand.

    Maybe people are out drinking until 2am and it’s too difficult. But otherwise, I’d look holistically at the week and plan around both important meetings, travel and my own wants. The flexibility doesn’t need to be within 24 hours and anyone who can handle complex sales negotiations can usually figure it out themselves as long as their company’s internal meeting schedule isn’t unreasonable.

    2. hbc*

      Yeah, I was thinking the OP’s described setup is very unusual. Most salespeople will flex it with the knowledge that getting the 9:00 meeting with production means their customers will actually get their product on time, so they’ll come in early and then maybe leave early to go home and nap. Sales is usually the best compensated department at the company, and part of that is due to the requirement to be where you need to be regardless of exactly how many hours you worked yesterday.

    3. L-squared*

      I’m in sales too. And while I agree, I will also say there may be a disconnect on how important people see certain meetings. The meeting product sees as important may not seem important to sales.

      If I’m working on a Sunday, I’m 90% of the time going to make up that time on a monday if possible (unless I have something else going on).

      There are standing meetings on my calendar that, frankly, I don’t see as very important, and I’d have no problem skipping.

      There has to be some give and take though. If Monday mornings are a common time for people to take comp time, but you know people are more likely to be in there monday afternoons, then just reschedule it.

      1. hbc*

        Except production isn’t flexible, and you can spend Monday morning setting up the week’s production line and then the sales guy comes in Monday afternoon with “Oh, yeah, customer changed their mind yesterday” or “But I have opinions on what gets built this week!”

        Sales shouldn’t be held to the whims of other departments, but they also don’t get to spend comp time whenever they heck they want without regard to operations.

      1. Flex time management is hard*

        Yes – the comp time does not make sense to me either. Salespeople generally have very flexible schedules. They may work late on a Thursday night, wake up for meetings with operations / sales support Friday morning, and then leave work mid-afternoon because customers generally avoid sales calls at 4pm on Fridays.

        Have you considered that the grumbling isn’t about Salesperson PTO or flexibility, but about the lack of salesperson availability during normal business hours impacting the non-salespersons ability to do their job?

    5. Also-ADHD*

      I am not in Sales, but I have to shift time a lot because of several kinds of the work I do (including travel/events) and I just pick my comp time around my meetings. If someone comes looking for me and gets fussed when my calendar says I’m OoO on comp time, that’s their problem, but I agree it doesn’t need to be right after in many cases. When I travel for weekend events a few times a year, I’ll usually work the day I get back to do clean up but have the end of that week booked for an extra long weekend for recovery.

    6. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      This is a really great point. Heck, I have occasionally worked late or on weekends when we’re in crunch time. I will typically take my comp time within a week of that, but not necessarily the next day.

    7. I Have RBF*

      IMO, meetings first thing Monday morning need to be banned anyway, unless it’s for an urgent production issue. Why? Because Mondays are the “fix what broke over the weekend” days. Not every Monday, but enough that Monday morning standing meetings can cause conflicts.

    8. Freya*

      Part of the problem with 9am meeting requirements here in Australia is that we have a general legal requirement that there be a minimum of 10 hours break between shifts (plus or minus industry-specific requirements) and overtime pay rates may apply to all hours worked until the employee gets that break. OH&S here recommends at least 12 hours between shifts, to reduce the likelihood of accidents and issues due to fatigue.

      So: being at work at 8:30am ready for the 9am meeting requires that the salesperson be working no later than 10:30pm the previous night and preferably no later than 8:30pm, which may not be doable for a dinner meeting that starts at 7pm.

  17. Disappointed With the Staff*

    Do companies not have announcement email addresses? I work in STEM so it’s possibly more obvious to us that you can (and should) have “everyone@company” as well as engineering@, production@ type “from” addresses that can be used by anyone vaguely familiar with using outlook to manage multiple accounts (our admin staff have this down to a fine art)

    That avoids the whole “I ignore emails from you because they’re rarely relevant” problem in two different ways. And if someone ignores “from: location@company. WARNING: building on fire” that’s a different issue :)

    1. Mark Knopfler’s Headband*

      If I get an email telling me one of our buildings is on fire and no fire alarm has gone off, I’m going to assume it’s one of those phishing tests from IT.

    2. Mutually Supportive*

      This is what I was thinking too – then it’s really easy to ignore the company newsletters and other bumph until after I’ve read the emails with important information in them.

      It if emails from those office admin address are urgent or information that’s relevant NOW, they’ll be titled

      ***Office town – lift broken, please use stairs***

  18. Friends of English Magic*

    For #1, I think my opinion of the sick OP’s mother would depend on how badly she “told off” the boss and about what. If it was limited to the situation at hand (ie, “She’s sick, you need to leave her alone”) that would be pretty understandable, but if it started to get into all the other ways Boss is a jerk (based off things OP had vented about in the past) then that would be crossing a big line.

    1. KateM*

      Yea, if what Mom said made it clear that OP has been telling her a lot of workplace secrets (so to say), that could be taken as a pretty bad unprofessionalism on OP’s part.

    2. Despachito*

      Yes, this is what I am thinking as well.

      Telling off for calling her when sick = OK, telling off for some workplace issues = not OK.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Yes, even a boss who wouldn’t write LW up for what Mom said, could reasonably conclude that LW was unhappy / not invested and looking to leave. And of course, that kind of thing tends to have repercussions on the way you’re treated at work, what kind of projects / responsibilities you’re given, etc.

    4. Aggretsuko*

      I’m guessing it was the latter. I’m not surprised OP got written up by a bad boss. What the heck did the mom think was going to happen? He’d shape up? No, he’s going to punish OP even more!!!!

    5. schmoop*

      I agree. I’m surprised at the advice and the comments praising the mom for telling off the boss. Isn’t that something that is usually discouraged here? Letting non-workers speak to the bosses in the worker’s behalf? I’m not at all surprised that there were negative consequences for OP after her mom’s outburst. Even if it was well-deserved, it was crossing a line.

      Also, mom only has OP’s side of the story (as do we). Maybe boss is terrible, but we’ve all vented about work, partners, friends, etc. That doesn’t mean that we want our mom to go fight all those people.

      1. Also-ADHD*

        This was 2 discouraged behaviors meeting: Mom only said what she said because boss called personal phone when employee was very ill. AND then boss wrote LW up for it (clearly wrong – LW was ill and disposed, they may not have had any control over it).

  19. Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells*

    For LW4, some military organisations used to have that policy but have now set up independent reporting channels. Saying that a private must complain to their non-commissioned officers about bullying usually works if the bully is another private (or someone in another unit), but is absurd when it’s their own NCOs that are the bullies.
    Even when that policy was in place, there were several approachable NCOs (perhaps even some commissioned officers), not just one ‘supervisor’ gatekeeping complaints.
    If the military knows that your supervisor’s policy is counterproductive, I’m sure that your company will as well.

    One other thing. Is there any precedent within your company or in a similar business that a supervisor can declare that you “cannot go to HR about anything without telling him first what it is about and then he will set an appointment with HR if he deems worthy/necessary”?
    If there is, I’m worried.
    If there isn’t, I can imagine HR and maybe upper management piling on to this supervisor.

    Personally, I think that a manager saying that you are not allowed to contact HR is grounds for you to complain to HR, as advised here.

  20. Turingtested*

    I support a sales team in various ways but do not sell myself. Those comments get to me and depending on the person I have a few responses. “Hey, X is actually closing Project Acme we’ve been quoting on for a few months. He just texted asking for some details.”

    “Ooof 6 straight hours of butt kissing does not sound like my idea of a good time! How do they do it?!?”

    “Personally I’d rather be here in peace with my spreadsheets and prints. Dealing with all the different personalities and being charming is not my thing.”

    Basically I remind people that the sales team is working and doing things we’d rather not.

    1. Not The Earliest Bird*

      I like to remind people that different jobs have different requirements. I wouldn’t want to be in a job that requires entertaining people on a regular basis, so I leave that to the sales people, while I take care of the numbers that get them paid.

  21. 2cents*

    As someone who doesn’t live or work in the US, this part of Alison’s advice for LW1 was a little baffling: “If they consider that your work phone, then sure, they can say you’re the only one who can answer it (hell, in a lot of states they could say that without paying any of the bill).”

    Can anyone enlighten me – what does this mean exactly? Can a company tell you you’re the only one who can answer your **personal** phone if anyone from the company calls? How would you even know that that’s the case – unless you have the entire company directory in your contacts? Or am I just being dense and missing the point completely (entirely possible, it’s been a WEEK)?

    1. fhqwhgads*

      I think the idea is “your company can tell you that no one but you can answer your work phone”. The point Alison is making is that if they make you use your personal device as a work device, then they can still say no one but you can answer that device, whether they pay something toward said phone or not – except in certain states that have state laws that they either can’t make you use a personal device as a work device, or that they have to pay for the device, etc.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      It’s standard security practice for employers to require that no 3rd party have access to work devices. If you’ve loaded company information and/or apps onto your personal device to the point where it’s considered your work device, they can require that of your personal device. Which is another mark in the favor of “do not use your personal devices for work”.

      Now, if the only use of your personal phone is if your boss calls you to ask where you are because you’re not at work, that doesn’t really meet the barrier of “personal device”. But if you’ve got company email or other things available, then yes, you could get into trouble by letting a 3rd party access it.

      1. Pepper*

        Is it really a work device if the workplace didn’t (1) buy it and (2) fully pay for monthly services? I would say no. AND if the workplace is serious about security concerns, then they should buy the device, pay for service on the device and manage the device.

        1. Strive to Excel*

          If you’re loading workplace data onto it, then you need to treat it by workplace device rules. Most of those rules have a corollary of “no workplace data on unsecured devices or unsecured message channels”. Which is why my personal rule is that work information does not go onto a device until and unless they are giving me a work device.

      2. Mutually Supportive*

        But it doesn’t sound like it’s about any apps – it’s just answering a standard phone call. The thing that phones were originally invented for!

  22. Despachito*

    LW1 – I assume the mom took the phone because LW was too sick to do that.

    Of course it was a bit problematic to tell off the boss (especially if mom used some insider information from the OP) but the boss seems insane to write OP up for someone else picking up her phone.

      1. I Have RBF*

        Seriously. The a-hole called her personal phone when she was sick, but was surprised when a caretaker answered it? Then was butt-hurt when said caretaker chewed them out? Too bad, so sad. If they hadn’t called in an abusive manner, they wouldn’t have been chewed out. They should not be allowed to write up a person for someone else’s actions, regardless. If they were too sick to answer the phone, they were too sick to screen the call.

  23. Pocket Mouse*

    #2: To be honest, the thing that caught my eye as potentially a problem is that you describe your team as salesMEN. The moment I read that word, the rest of the question was colored by questions about the culture in your company or team such that it seems only men have been/are expected to be hired into the sales role. In that context, the activities you describe start to feel like a good ole boys club. I hope you take a hard look at that angle in addition to the other advice suggested.

    3. Massive Dynamic*

      I caught that too and while it’s not the main issue at hand, the all-male sales dudeforce is generally not a great dynamic (I say this as someone who worked alongside one once as an admin). The question becomes, how does the sales team view the other departments: strictly existing as support of sales, or as different but equally important departments supporting the shared goal of company success?

    4. LW2*

      My team is more than half women, that’s just sort of the general phrasing we use at the company. I’m a man myself and none of the women on my team have ever expressed an issue with it but I could check in and see if it bothers anyone

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        Thanks for clarifying! But… what if you just switch to saying “sales team” (like so many commenters here do) instead of “team of salesmen”? If my supervisor asked me if something they’re doing bothers me, I’m immediately going to be on high alert and couch my response carefully. You know from the comments here that it bothers some people; is there a barrier to assuming that it bothers at least one person you interact with at work and proceed accordingly?

      2. kalli*

        A woman telling a man that sexism bothers them tends not to go well, so it doesn’t tend to happen.

        Just don’t do it in the first place.

      3. spiriferida*

        It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t bother the people on your team currently – and honestly you’re probably not going to get a comprehensive answer out of them, like Pocket Mouse highlighted. But it says something about your company that even when your team was half women that no one thought about this, and it doesn’t say something good.

  24. Judas Priest*

    LW#4: I’ve also had a boss who told our team stuff like “don’t ever go to HR, just come straight to me and I’ll fix everything.” These types are the worst to work for..
    they’re usually terrible at managing and even worse, they’re so slick. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had HR bribed on the side anyway. I could totally see him slipping a few hundred dollar bills to our HR director in secret and bribing them on the side if any complaint against him came up.

    1. DramaQ*

      We have a higher up person like this. I was sitting there thinking if I’m ready to go nuclear and head straight to HR I either already tried with you and you ignored me or the issue involves you and you don’t want HR knowing.

      It was a giant waving red flag.

      I do not trust that guy as far as I can spit. He is the LAST person I’ll go to.

  25. Alicent*

    #5: I had a manager try to tell me I had to report things to her before HR. The reason I had to go over her head was because she was ignoring sexual harassment happening DURING MEETINGS that she was hosting! A male coworker literally commented on the size of a female employee’s breasts during uniform discussions and she sat there silently. We were having other problems with SH on the team and ended up reporting everything. HR told us we should have a “diversity potluck” to work through our issues because it was a multinational crew, but apparently they also chewed out my boss and told the offenders who reported them. We agreed in the meeting to run things by her to smooth it out, but we definitely weren’t going to do that.
    I ended up getting transferred to a new team and location (I was being retaliated against and didn’t feel safe reporting it, but the transfer wasn’t my idea). Funny enough every problem I was being punished for supposedly causing at the original location disappeared like magic.

  26. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

    Removed because the resulting discussion was off-topic but please email me a screenshot if you see the ad again so I can get it removed. (I can’t do anything with just a description, unfortunately.) – Alison

  27. Anon for This*

    LW1 – I would ask for a company-provided phone, tell them you need to keep your personal one separate. You were sick and your mother answered your calls for you – how is she to know whether the caller is from work, your doctor’s office, etc.? If they want to tell you who can answer your, they need to provide it.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Not sure the “how is she to know” thing would go anywhere, unless LW’s phone is a landline without caller ID.

      LW can easily label all work contacts with “Work” or the company name if they haven’t already, so it’s definitely within their power to make it clear to mom which people are from work.

      1. Ginger Cat Lady*

        They *could* but if it’s not set up that way already, how is mom to know? It’s still ridiculous for the company to think they can control mom, or to write up the employee for what their mom did while they were too sick to do anything.

        1. ecnaseener*

          The “tell your mom to stop picking up work calls going forward” piece of this is by far the least ridiculous, IMO. That’s eminently doable, and would be reasonable if it wasn’t taking place in a workplace full of bees. It would be a waste of breath (at best) to argue “but how can I possibly prevent that?” when there are obvious answers.

      2. Mutually Supportive*

        Caller ID on mobile phones only comes up with a number unless it’s from someone already in your contacts. There’s every possibility that the incoming calls was from a number that the phone didn’t recognise.

    2. FINALLY FRIDAY*

      I understand this. When my doctor’s office calls it often doesn’t show who the caller is. The only number that does up as theirs is the main line. Ditto with some offices. So it why writer doesn’t have everyone’s direct line/cell in their phone it might not show up. If it were my mom, LoL, she would barely know how to answer my cell at all!

      1. Piper*

        The mom could well be answering the phone exactly because important calls like from a doctor’s office will not show who the caller is. Telling her to not have anyone else answer her phone is ridiculous.

  28. Glengarry Glenn Close*

    There’s something a little off about #2 – this is so common for salespeople (at least those who work on large deals), that it’s very surprising other department leaders aren’t aware of this.

    I’ve been in sales/sales leadership for 20+ years and often other folks besides sales will attend these things too – basically anyone who touches the account is often included.

    I wonder if there’s a serious silo culture at LW’s office

    1. learnedthehardway*

      Indeed. I would be tempted (if I were a sales person at that company) to point out to anyone who commented that the VERY LAST THING I want to be doing on my personal time is attending a football or other sports game, TYVM. It’s work, full stop.

  29. Omskivar*

    Honestly, I know Mom needs to stay out of LW1’s business, as much as she wants to defend her child, but I’m on Team Mom here. But that might be because I had a similar situation about 10-ish years back when I was working as a home health aide.

    It was two days before Christmas, I had already called in two days before because I had to go to the ER with a sudden allergic reaction to ???*, and now I had to go to the ER because my face was swelling so much I couldn’t fully open my eyes AND my throat was starting to swell closed. When I called in I got read the riot act by the holiday/after hours phone operator, who told me that if I’d wanted time off for Christmas I should have put in PTO like everyone else. I repeated that I was having an allergic reaction and had to go to the ER, and she huffily told me, “I’ll call you back.”

    She called back while I was at the ER, where the nurse was getting rather concerned watching the hives actively spread across my back, and my husband answered. I don’t remember what he said to her, just that he was coldly polite and factual, but suddenly she believed that I was actually unwell! And she was able to talk to my clients and cancel all but two of the appointments I had that weekend, and called back later to make sure I was doing okay and able to make it to those appointments. (The uncharitable side of me notes that *of course* a man had to confirm that I was actually sick and not just malingering.)

    So, yeah, Mom was out of line, but she gets all my respect.

    * We figured out later it was my dust mite and mold allergies cranked up to 11 because we were moving and kicking up a bunch of dust that I was constantly breathing in. Fun!

      1. Indolent Libertine*

        I’m not officially allergic to dust, but the last time we moved I think I did as much sneezing in the process of packing as I usually do over about 10 years of normal life! Yeah, my housekeeping had room for improvement but there’s no way around what accumulates under and behind a tall piece of furniture that’s been bolted to the wall (earthquake country) for 20 years! My eyes are itching just thinking about it…

    2. Great Frogs of Literature*

      I also think it’s really shitty for OP to get a write-up for something their mom did *while they were sick.* OP said they were very sick, and certainly if MY mother was coming to my house to take care of me, it would be a sign that I was in a bad way.

      What is this write-up for? OP was presumably in bed, and the phone was in their own home, which is typically the standard for taking care of work-related electronics, unless you’re subject to very intense security restrictions. “OP failed to leap out of their sickbed to stop their mother from answering the phone”? “OP did not proactively tell their mother to not answer any calls from work”? “OP neglected to turn the phone off or lock it somewhere their mother could not access while collapsing into bed with a fever”?

      I’m not surprised that the boss was pissed, and sure, it’s not illegal to issue such a write-up, but to my mind it’s utterly ridiculous.

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Well, in their own home or left at work, but for a personal phone subsidized by work, that’s not reasonable.

      3. Aggretsuko*

        OP does not live in a sane world. OP’s boss is not sane. OP probably would have gotten punished for being too sick to answer the phone anyway, but OP’s mom telling him off would only enrage him further.
        (Also, OP obviously griping to Mom and Mom saying things that made that clear that happened would do it.)

    3. NotRealAnonForThis*

      Similar situation, except it was my Mom. And I was irked because it was just a third party who had to confirm.

      (They’re freaking lucky they didn’t get my Dad. Because if they questioned him, it was obviously because “they didn’t believe me because I’m just a girl” and that would have sent him straight nuclear because we’re in the same industry and he cant’ believe I’m still fighting all the sexism, regardless of whether that was the intent of the phone call or not.)

  30. post script*

    Can we get a bunch of Moms like LW1’s together to train an AI like Daisy? But instead of wasting phone scammer’s time, it would tell off toxic bosses?

  31. Former Lab Rat*

    LW#1 – are you paid hourly or on a salary? If you are an hourly employee your boss is violating all kinds of laws making you work off the clock. If you’re salaried he’s a jerk that expects way too much. I suggest two things: (1) for a month keep track of all that extra work time. It will be proof of how hard you work when you ask for a raise/promotion. (2) look for another job with a better work life balance.

    And update us!

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      LW replied to Jasmine Clark above as “Cody Edwards”. It was…interesting. I honestly can’t believe they stayed at that job for so long.

  32. Left Turn at Albuquerque*

    “Is she up for telling off other people’s bosses too? She’d probably be in demand.”

    *clears throat* Asking for a nation.

        1. Grimalkin*

          Plus all the people who can’t vote for other reasons, plus all the people who could vote but didn’t…

  33. anonymous state employee*

    I feel #2’s pain. I work in tourism promotion for a state agency whose primary focus is infrastructure, so we spend a lot of time documenting economic impact and otherwise trying to justify our “fun” existence (and it really IS a fun job).

    Sometimes our job duties require us to attend gala events where our agency’s ethics policy does not allow us to eat or drink (can’t accept gifts, including food & beverage, from anyone who does business with us) and it’s awkward. And there’s lots of resentment and misunderstanding from workers whose duties are more visibly in line with the agency’s core mission.

    1. HonorBox*

      Yikes. No food or drink? I get that you can’t accept a gift card, or a gigantic flower arrangement, or some other actual gift from a client, but expecting that you attend but not actually eat is a bridge too far.

      1. Lady Lessa*

        Preach it. As far as I am concerned, not allowing your employees to eat and drink (moderately) at a gala, would have me rethink my relationship with you.

        1. anonymous state employee*

          Well, most of the entities we work with are either other state agencies (which tend to be a little more flexible because they are primarily focused on tourism to begin with), city government or city-government-adjacent, or attractions who work with various government orgs. So they do understand that sometimes regulations can be constricting in awkward ways, and we can all laugh about it together. (Also, if the agency paid a registration/admission fee for us to attend, we can eat; just no alcohol.)

          The tourism department is just a bit of a red-headed stepchild in our rather stodgy agency, and the perception that all we do is have fun is really the hardest thing we have to navigate.

        2. Claire*

          Ethics laws for state employees are pretty strict, at least in my state. It’s not something an individual manager can choose to ignore, it’s state law.

          1. Banana Pyjamas*

            Exactly. One state I worked in had a gift limit of $99 and the going rate for formal, catered meals was $120-$150/plate. Eating definitely would have violated the state ethics laws.

        3. Antilles*

          Not if you’re actually in/around the world of government ethics rules regularly.

          This level of strictness is very much at the extreme end of the spectrum, but there’s enough restrictions and quirky requirements out there that nobody is going to “rethink our relationship” over it. It would just draw some jokes about it and/or sympathetic noises and then just get accepted as it is what it is.

        4. Governmint Condition*

          If you’re rethinking your relationship with a government agency, understand that there is often no alternative to that agency.

          1. Lady Lessa*

            And sometimes rethinking me, it’s bad, but we have no choice.
            (I’ve never worked for either a non-profit nor government, so I have private business glasses only)

            1. AMH*

              Sometimes people say OSHA regulations are written in blood; I think a lot of ethics regulations are written in scandal. They are strict but for a reason (and that strictness actually protects municipal/state etc employees). But if you haven’t been in that world it’s totally understandable that it looks bonkers from the outside.

              1. Governmint Condition*

                And if you think to yourself “would a government employee really violate the law and steer multi-million dollar contracts to a company for one lousy meal?” you need to re-read the articles on AAM about what people will do for free food.

      2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        Government rules like that aren’t designed to or expected to make sense. They’re designed to make it 100% crystal clear that there is no opportunity for bribery, or for misuse of public funds. A cup of coffee is usually okay as de minimus – but even a sandwich often is not. My wife is a government scientist, and she’s occasionally received awards of some kind – not financial, but a plaque or desk display thingy of some kind as “Outstanding X of 20xx” and it’s been a whole song and dance about figuring out the approximate cost of the thingy so she can reimburse the organization she received it from.

  34. HonorBox*

    For LW2 – I think it would be worthwhile to not only not highlight the specific things the sales team are doing, but also highlight the hours they’re putting in outside of 9-5. Let’s say Jonas is taking a client to an NFL game on Sunday. Rather than saying that Jonas went to an NFL game, you can say instead that Jonas had meetings with client(s) on Sunday from 11-5 and will be in a bit later on Monday. Rather than Janine going to the new five-star restaurant, mention that Janice was working from 6-11 last night. There will be less FOMO to be sure.

    These outside events might seem fun and exciting, but they’re work. They’re difficult. They’re exhausting. I’ve done some similar-ish things and I’d suggest that having to be “on” for 4 hours in a situation like this is as mentally draining as working at your desk for 12 hours. It is compounded greatly.

  35. learnedthehardway*

    OP#4 – someone should go straight to HR and inform them of your manager’s new requirement to be consulted before anyone goes to HR.

    My guess is that HR will be VERY interested to hear that he made this demand, and they’ll handle telling him that NO, he doesn’t get to do that, and that this is NOT the way things work.

    1. ScruffyInternHerder*

      I feel like there should be a Toodaloo skit done on this topic, it would be pretty epic :)

  36. SunnyShine*

    LW4: Tell HR. Last manager we had that did that got away with so much stuff. I covered for him as he was out on medical leave. I found so many issues that HR kicked me out of the investigation process. He was fired. I went back to the group and told them that they are free to go to anyone they feel comfortable with.

  37. FishyInDenmark*

    For the sales manager (#2) – I think, at some level, you’re going to just have to deal with this, and be something of a lightning rod.

    Your reports are working while they’re doing it, but they’re still going to a ballgame/fancy dinner/etc. It is certainly work time, but when other people’s work time never includes to possibility of a beer and a hot dog while the local team is in action, or a nice scotch paid for by the company, it is reasonable that they feel excluded and grumpy.

    So, a “hey, we’ll have everyone here Mondays and Tuesdays, 10-3, no comp time then” is probably about the best you can do, but you won’t get rid of the grumbling.

    1. mreasy*

      I don’t really think grumbling is appropriate at work, unless it’s based on unfair treatment. This isn’t unfair treatment. This is people having different jobs.

      1. FishyInDenmark*

        Do we have wildly different definitions of “grumbling?” I’ve never worked in a place where everyone was happy with their job and happy that the different jobs had different requirements, and frankly, seeing such a place would weird me out as Stepfordian.

        Humans are human, they get grumpy and envious and jealous and grumble about it. Even those who, if you asked them to step back and actually evaluate, would concede that they’re all being treated fairly do it.

        I mean, I’d love for the company to pay for my group to fly out to see our customers in Europe, even though I get that isn’t my job and we likely have perks that they don’t have, but to suggest my team shouldn’t make any wistful statements or express any version of “man, wish they’d do that for me” strikes me as incorrect.

        1. Also-ADHD*

          Yeah “no grumbling ever unless something is objectively wrong/unfair and needs to be fixed” is extremely toxic positivity.

          1. mreasy*

            That came off stronger than I meant. Definitely a grumbler at times but I guess being upset that someone else’s job comes with perks that yours doesn’t have, when it’s not perks, it’s literally their job, seems overly negative. It’s one thing to jokingly say “must be nice” while knowing their jobs also have downsides, but it’s another to have a company culture that grumbles about a specific department.

    2. Phony Genius*

      I agree, and I think it will only get worse. If the non-sales staff follows the lead of the current administration, they will frequently speak out about employees whose assignments look more like perks than work. And they don’t want to hear any explanations, no matter how reasonable.

  38. Chirpy*

    #4 is effectively how my company works. There’s an anonymous phone tip line, but regular stuff has to go through a manager because floor staff do not have email access and cannot contact anyone from corporate via personal email. We use a “social media like” program to communicate with other associates, but HR is not on it (nor are most of corporate). So if the manager forgets to send the message/doesn’t think it’s a big deal, you’re just screwed even if you do feel comfortable telling him.

    it absolutely sucks, and I feel for you.

  39. Lacey*

    LW2 – Do you… make a big deal about they’re pulling in those big contracts and not at all a big deal about how the reason they’re able to is that there are teams of non-sales people turning out a great product/service and making the customer experience as smooth as possible?

    I’ve worked with a ton of sales teams and that’s… a really common element.

    I could not less about the events. They sound like my personal version of hell.
    I respect the skill it takes to sell things. I wouldn’t be able to do it.

    But, when Megan from accounting gripes about Maggie not being in yet because she was out “partying” with clients last night… Do I say, “Well, to be fair that’s part of her job.” ?

    I don’t.

    I say, “Poor Maggie, it must be so hard to eat hors d’oeuvres and pull in a huge commission”

    Because I worked hard on Maggie’s last project even though Maggie was hard to get a hold of and short on information and Maggie got an award and bonus for it and now I have to hear every day about how important Maggie is to the company because she sold such a succesful project. She didn’t make it successful. But the teams that did never get recognized.

    So. Maybe this isn’t you. But. When I have worked with sales teams that respect and recognize my work… I’ve never complained about them going to parties that they can’t enjoy because actually they have to work while they’re there.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        I mean just because it requires inferences doesn’t mean it’s not useful. “Do you… make a big deal about they’re pulling in those big contracts and not at all a big deal about how the reason they’re able to is that there are teams of non-sales people turning out a great product/service and making the customer experience as smooth as possible?”

        As a statement “Make as big of a deal about the support team as you do about sales. Recognize that sales are possible because of the support team.”

    2. MassMatt*

      Sorry that your company seems to stink, but it really doesn’t make sense to expect the LW managing a sales team writing in about a specific problem with their team to go over the efforts they make to share the spotlight with other teams.

      And on the note of your “must be hard to eat d’oeuvres and pull in a huge commission”, have you ever had to sell? Had your paycheck depend on making a sale? You probably enjoy a salary, a regular paycheck. Most salespeople do not. If they go through a dry spell bills don’t get paid.

      For that matter, no matter how great a product is, someone needs to sell it or the company goes under and NO ONE gets paid. You can have the best mouse trap in the world and no, the world will not beat a path to your door. Someone else’s mousetrap is cheaper, or they’ve always used this mousetrap and don’t want to have to retrain everyone on setting them.

      1. Sacred Ground*

        Yep. Whenever you find yourself thinking “Must be hard to (x)…” consider that yes, maybe it is in fact HARD.

  40. RagingADHD*

    Now I want to see LW4’s boss’ face if the whole team told him they want an appointment with HR to talk about this new rule.

  41. Emily Byrd Starr*

    LW 1: And here I thought that was a problem that became obsolete when caller ID was introduced.

    1. My Brain is Exploding*

      It doesn’t always work, particularly if there are multiple outgoing lines in an office. My doctor’s office is like this. The main number might show but if they use another line it doesn’t. So if I am waiting for a call for them, I will answer other calls with the right area code just to be sure I’m not missing their call.

    2. Sacred Ground*

      And for obvious reasons of privacy and confidentiality, Caller ID Block was introduced at the same time.

  42. Dinwar*

    #2: I get the jealousy, but at the same time, the team needs to understand that the sales staff aren’t watching the football game for fun–as you say, it’s work. Sometimes work is enjoyable, but it’s still work!

    To an extent I don’t think you can do much about grumbling. Sales staff necessarily need to do things that look like a lot of fun–going out for dinner with clients, buying drinks, going to games, etc–but that’s just the nature of the job. It’s the equivalent of plumbers needing to work under houses, or hoof trimmers needing to spend time in barns. But a surprising number of people don’t realize that. Nor do they see the work that goes into these things. They just see the parts they enjoy and react with jealousy. I’ve seen a few attempts to correct this, but they never end up working; the grumblers view it as self-serving justification, not the real explanation. Stupid–really stupid, because without sales you don’t have work–but not much you can do about it.

  43. CzechMate*

    LW 1 – I did that once! My mom fell off a ladder, had multiple surgeries, was laid up with a broken leg and lots of Vicodin, board approved her for medical leave. Her boss called the house to ask when she could stop by to drop off my mom’s work laptop. I told her, “My mom can’t work.” (Bear in mind, I’m like 16.)

    She said, “Sorry, what?”

    I said, “My mom is in pain. She’s high on pain killers. She CAN NOT work right now.”

    Boss tried to convince me that she just wanted my mom to have the laptop for her own entertainment while she was laid up and OF COURSE wouldn’t expect her to WORK while she was on leave because that would be RIDICULOUS. Then she came over, gave my mom the laptop, and said, “Your daughter told me you can’t work……..but do you think if you have a chance you can take a peek at these grant reporting forms…….?”

    My mom thanked me for trying all the same.

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      Your mom may have been high on pain killers, but her boss was apparently high on his own farts. That’s just ridiculous.

  44. Another Kristin*

    Even if they’re not up to something nefarious, LW4’s boss seems to be setting themself up for a lot of headaches. I think I’ve contacted HR at my work 4 times this month for completely mundane things (a question about changing bank accounts, what to do with an old ID card I found, stuff like that). Why would you want to be the middle man for things like that from all of your direct reports?

  45. Lauren19*

    LW2 – I used to be on the corporate side of a sales organization. Every time I onboarded someone to my team I’d show them the entire organization’s org chart, and then circle the people that did the work that paid the new employee’s pay check. It takes a LOT of work to keep an organization running, but EVERYONE needs to know how they get paid. If your sales team also works on commission, make sure the rest of the staff knows that as well. They are incentivized to do as much work as possible, and energy management is part of maximizing that.

      1. A. Lab Rabbit*

        Agreed. Sales is only part of it. What about order fulfillment? Purchasing that makes sure sales has something to sell? Payroll that actually makes sure paychecks go out? If the people who generate revenue are the only ones that matter, why do you even have all those other people working there?

        I would not feel valued working at a place like this. Oof, what a terrible thing to say to people.

      2. Isben Takes Tea*

        I am also very confused. The entire reason someone is being hired is because the company has determined the role is required for the company to function successfully. Everyone contributes to their own paycheck. We have a company-wide bonus system specifically to highlight and encourage everyone’s efforts in making and supporting a successful product that attracts and keeps customers long-term.

        The culture you want is one where everyone respects the work everyone else is doing and supports each other. Yes, nobody gets paid if the salespeople don’t sell. But the salespeople don’t get paid if the product doesn’t exist, if the marketers aren’t opening up new sales channels, if operations doesn’t keep things running smoothly so customer reviews don’t tank.

        You definitely want to correct perceptions if any one department is getting too much or too little attention/praise/criticism, especially if their role is misunderstood, but it’s also extremely problematic to hold the sales team out as “the ones that pay your salary.”

    2. Ginger Cat Lady*

      So, you told all new employees that sales were the only employees with value. Got it. Remind me not to work for you. Sales wouldn’t have anything to sell without those making the product, supporting the product, making sure clients actually pay, making sure the company’s bills get paid and that everyone has the supplies they need, and lest we forget, does PAYROLL.
      EVERYONE does work that gets employees paid. EVERYONE.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      Sounds like non-profit theaters who pay devo staff 6x production and ticketing staff. Yeah, donations are half the budget, but with no show, there is no theater anyway, so…

  46. whatever*

    A bizarre amount of people making a lot of assumptions about LW2’s situation just because of their own bad experiences with salespeople in the past.

  47. Amber Rose*

    I will hire LW1’s mom. Or maybe she can take me as a disciple?

    I know it caused problems and such but I admire someone who stands up for what’s right.

  48. mbs001*

    LW 1 – my mother wouldn’t know which name/number was calling my phone was personal and which was work-related. So they’ve no standing to say your mother can’t answer your phone. That’s ridiculous and I’d tell them so.

  49. Red Headed stepchild*

    I had to yell at my boss’s mom when he called while she had Covid but there were some slightly different circumstances.
    -She almost died and I had to fly across country to take care of her
    -He called at 2am to get a login and password

    It made me more prepared to repeat myself when she had a cerebral aneurysm rupture a few years later and he wouldn’t stop texting abusive messages to her phone while she was in the ICU. (She wasn’t shipping something he wanted from her on his timeline – you know, because she had just been airlifted, had multiple brain surgeries and was still struggling to speak).

      2. A. Lab Rabbit*

        I think I would have yelled at both the boss and the boss’s mom, because she obviously didn’t raise that boy right.

        1. Polly Hedron*

          Ok, but I doubt that you’d have flown across the country to take care of that boss’s mom.

  50. Wellie*

    LW 1

    Did your mom actually raise her voice with your boss? Or do you mean she chewed him out at a normal volume? If your mom raised her voice at your boss, you need to apologize immediately and sincerely and promise that it will never happen again. Unless something is on fire, yelling is unacceptable in the workplace, and it’s understandable that your boss took a pretty hard line after being yelled at.

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      Nah. This didn’t happen in the workplace. It happened in LW’s home. Boss would not have gotten yelled at if hadn’t called the employee at their home. Boss FAFOed and does not deserve an apology.

      It’s weird that you’re not expecting the boss to apologize for all of the things they did, many of which are possibly illegal.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        agreed. And I don’t see how he can say she can’t answer the phone. Is she supposed to know who the caller ID is? I bet it was more of this person keeps calling, I’m going to answer to see what they want, and when the boss was on the other line the mom chewed him out.

    2. Just a suggestion*

      Buuuuut . . .it wasn’t “in the workplace.” And that is kinda the point – Boss was intruding on someone too sick to BE “in the workplace.” (Boss is trying to assert that the phone itself somehow constitutes “the workplace,” but it doesn’t.)

  51. Wilbur*

    I’m surprised Alison didn’t mention this, but if the complaint is about availability then try to set core hours or office hours. Obviously there’s going to be some variability based on client needs.

    With phones, if I’m expected to pay for any part of the bill or provide the phone then I’m going to do what I want with it. If the company wants exclusive control then they can provide a company phone.

  52. Heather*

    LW2: This is a guess but I’m wondering if social media is playing a part in some of the grumbling. Sales guys at my last company liked to brag about all the cool events they went to on LinkedIn and personal social media pages, especially when the company was sponsoring an event. Our company had a very “eyes on your own paper” approach to the grumbling and basically stonewalled anyone who wanted to complain about it because that’s part of the sales role and if you wanted to do those things you should have gone into sales (not saying this is a good approach at all but it was effective in getting people to shut up)

    1. Phony Genius*

      You’re right that it was not a great approach. Normally “eyes on your own paper” also means don’t go waving your paper where others can see. (At least when it comes to test taking, where the phrase originated.)

    2. Looper*

      I’ve also worked for a company who had the same attitude and their hiring strategy (which I’m sure was a complete coincidence) was always Whoops! All White Guys!

  53. Looper*

    LW2- One thing that sales teams of many companies miss is that, yes, your team works very hard to make the sale. But also, every single other person who works for the company is working very hard to deliver on whatever your sales person has promised. And while yes, everyone is working very hard, only one team is drinking beers in a sky box at a pro game and getting paid for it (and also probably getting commission to do so.)

    Refusing to recognize that in fact your team does get to do cool stuff and instead pretending it’s all the same drudgery is disingenuous and no one is buying it which is probably contributing to the push back.

    People are going to grumble regardless, so you’ll need to grow a thicker skin there. But is there a way to spread that fun around a little? Are other teams being recognized for their contributions in fun ways that give them flexibility the same as your team? Is your company culture lopsided in its praise of sales? You aren’t responsible for fixing company culture, but these are some questions that you can be asking of other managers.

    1. Aldvs*

      Only one team is drinking beers in a sky box at a pro game and getting paid for it…

      While drinking in a sky box at a pro game may be your kind of fun, for some of the Sales people, it may not be because they hate the sport or because they may be missing: their child’s first steps, a kids soccer game, their friend’s birthday party, or the past 10 years worth of Father’s days with their family because a very important conference falls on the same weekend every year.

    2. LW2*

      I don’t mean to imply that we hate these events. Most of us are extroverts and enjoy our jobs. I use attending these events as a recruitment tool when hiring.

      My pushback is just that it’s still a job. A fun job definitely, but not fair to ask the team to work very long hours bc some of that time is more fun.

  54. Lizabeth*

    LW1 One of the best features of a cellphone? Putting it on silent. Most of the calls I get are spam and if it’s important they will leave a message that I will return at my convenience.

  55. Dust Bunny*

    “I’m running into problems with other departments complaining about my team’s availability”

    Does this mean that other departments need something from your team that they’re having a hard time getting because of your team’s irregular hours/comp time?

    If that’s the case, I bet they would be far less irritated by the “partying” if they had less trouble getting whatever it was they needed, so maybe a better system is needed for that.

  56. CubeFarmer*

    LW#1: There’s a little bit of blame to go around for everyone. First, mom needs to stay out of your work life. Second, your boss needs to respect basic boundaries around health.

  57. Tired of Cold*

    LW2
    I’d ask around to see how your team coming in late or getting comp time affects the rest of the org. In particular are they blocking off the comp time enough in advance for people to plan vs react. I liked someone’s comment up thread about comp being used where it won’t affect the greater org.

    I know I’d be salty if I needed something from sales and that morning they were coming in late. Now I have to rearrange my calendar to accommodate them, I have less time to do my job, and I possibly have to stay late and rearrange my personal life to allow me to stay late.

    Tbf this hits a sore point – so many times my manager wouldn’t give (or let us use) comp time but others would. Plus there engineers are the spring taking all the blame and expected to make up time when up front groups are late and manufacturing gets a pass because launch dates and tooling times are fixed.

    1. Tiger Snake*

      “I’d ask around to see how your team coming in late or getting comp time affects the rest of the org”

      That’s what I was thinking too.

      Steve worked Sunday to make a sale, so he gets Monday off. Okay, great, but the job doesn’t finish after the sale was made. Now we need to start all the work to deliver what Steve promised.
      And if Steve isn’t there for the debrief Monday, so he didn’t review and sign-off on the requirements when expected. So now we have changed requirements that don’t get added in until Wednesday.
      That correlates to 5 extra days build time to add, remove and integrate the one requirement.
      That pushes back our test window by a week, but we still have to deliver on time. The same amount of work in a shorter time period means the test team now needs to work 10hr days instead of 7hr days but they’re not getting extra pay or a day off for it because that’s ongoing work instead of a singular day and so that’s just what being salaried means.

      Steve got a reward for the hard work he put in. And while we want to be happy for Steve, that reward is not equal to the extra work it then puts on the rest of the team who are also necessary and critical for business. And no one is appreciating or realising that.

  58. Exhausted*

    RE the sales team – could you have some standing meetings that your staff works around? For example, if your staff does need to meet with Marketing weekly, could that be scheduled for 9am on Tuesday and comp time can’t be taken during that window? Or, could you have a set day for comp time and simply refuse to ever schedule meetings in that window? I’m simply wondering if there’s a way to manage schedules so that you don’t have to talk so often about one or two people being unavailable.

  59. Employed Minion*

    For LW2: Confirm with your team that they are blocking out their comp time on their calendar so other departments know they’re unavailable. And have an alternative contact (like you) if those depts cannot wait for that specific salesperson.

    As others have said, there will be some grumbling. But if you can mitigate the impact of the comp time on the other depts, I think it will help.

  60. Dido*

    LW1, jobs are temporary, but you’ll know forever that your mom will always have your back. Her heart was in the right place even if her actions were not 100% correct

    1. KateM*

      She may always have your back, but do be careful what you tell her about your next jobs before she ruins all of them.

    2. MassMatt*

      Yes, but no. LW might well suffer terrible repercussions at work over this outburst.

      Mom got to vent, but it’s LW who will have to pay the price.

    3. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      This could also be “I’m still going to parent you well into your adulthood and won’t leave it to you to decide how to handle your life” so it isn’t automatically heart in the right place to me. Mom answering their phone in the first place is across the line for me.

  61. Yes And*

    LW1: Last night, my wife had to drag herself out of her sickbed after hours because her boss had last-minute changed their mind about work that had been approved months ago. I would never actually yell at my wife’s boss on her behalf, but BOY HOWDY was I tempted.

  62. Just a suggestion*

    Why would you ever say ” John was in the suite at the NLF game all day Sunday. . . ” instead of just “John worked all day Sunday entertaining clients . . .”?

    1. NotARealManager*

      I would even leave off “entertaining clients” and just say “John was working with clients late on Sunday”. Sure, lots of people will still put two and two together that he was at the NFL game and might grumble, but you (manager) will be emphasizing the work, not the event.

  63. DJ*

    At my work place only managers and supervisors can go to HR. Staff have to try to get bullying and other issues revolved by “going up the chain”. Really sucks given the power imbalance. Means the staff member can’t benefit from HR advice etc! And things don’t get resolved!

  64. merida*

    LW #4 – if it were me, I’d be so tempted to resort to malicious compliance. He wants the team to come to him with every single question they’d normally ask HR because he’s just so afraid of people complaining about him? Fantastic. Have every female on the team go to Bad Boss seperately and tell him they are majorly struggling with period pain and heavy bleeding and are wondering what ADA accomodations can be made, complete with detailed descriptions of their symptoms and a thorough biology lesson on menstruation to boot. If he interrupts at any point or says he doesn’t need to know all this, be sure to remind him that you are only telling him all this because normally you’d ask HR this ADA question but he told never to go to HR directly, and since he’s not used to these questions you decided to be very thorough in helping him to understand because you’re just so kind. Or maybe just ask him every question you’ve ever had about your benefits, or go page by page through the company handbook and ask questions clarifying each and every policy. Ridiculous rules require ridiculous responses. Good grief.

    Reminds me of years ago when I had to call my phone provider from my friend’s phone to ask if they could restore my service that they cut off for no reason with no notice. Phone company later restored my service but not before bragging to me repeatedly that they had “a zero percent complaint rate” from customers and this kind of glitch never happens. I asked what the complaint process was and how I could make one. They were stumped, I got transfered a few times, and eventually a rep said no one was allowed to record my complaint… lol. Sounds like that’s what this boss wants. Easy to have a precedent of no complaints when you simply don’t allow them.

  65. Caller 2*

    I’ll pay LW1’s mother €100 to have a little chat with a certain ex-boss of mine who bullied me when I was going through one of the worst experiences of my life.

  66. Piper*

    My Godmom once took my boss to task. I was out of Family Medical Leave, and had been for at least 2 weeks. One day – an very important day in my Mom’s transition – my boss was harassing my Godmom calling her multiple times trying to reach me, and then was calling the Hospice facility multiple times. My Godmom finally said something to my boss.

    I was working for a Fortune 50 company. She is the reason we need legal protection for taking family medical leave.

  67. Bike Walk Bake Books*

    LW2, Clara’s request to identify importance of an email in the subject line is really in line with best practices for email in general. If I have a deadline in the body of the email I put it in the subject line. This is extra-true for someone who sends a lot of general all-staff messages along with some that are for a specific person and at a different level of importance.

    A different way to approach it would be to have a consistent way of flagging the all-staff messages, like “STAFF UPDATE” at the beginning of all subject lines for those. Then Clara and others could set a rule, route those into a folder, and the ones that are genuinely individual would be left in their in-boxes. Tell everyone when you do this so you’re streamlining email processing for everyone. They can decide if they want to set the rule.

    I hear the frustration with all the effort that’s gone into this but blinding anger over a request to make it easier to find and respond to the very things you want Clara to respond to isn’t going to resolve this. And sharing your personal venting to someone outside the company with your boss as you asked about is never a good idea and isn’t proof of anything. “I tell my partner how awful work is” really isn’t a good look.

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